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林文祥 林局長主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長軍醫局 陳元浩 陳局長戰略規劃司 黃文綺 黃司長資源規劃司 藍靜婷 藍司長法律事務司 吳義勝 吳司長整合評估司 苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購事 趙雅萍 趙主任"},{"start":1871.121,"end":1895.177,"text":"人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長情報參謀次長是謝日生謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長"},{"start":1901.635,"end":1929.428,"text":"陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部朱惠民參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛恩泉參謀長憲兵指揮部楊正平楊副參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長"},{"start":1931.341,"end":1946.571,"text":"軍事情報局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 林振維 林執行長國防大學 李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院 李士強 李院長另外還有衛生福利部醫事司 劉月平 劉司長國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":1961.932,"end":1970.636,"text":"林廣洪主任秘書工程技術研究發展處洪樂文洪處長科技辦公室彭靜瑜彭副主任我們現在補充介紹陳俊宇陳委員"},{"start":1986.819,"end":2008.183,"text":"請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏或錯誤需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告國防部創新小組將新興科技應用與不對稱作戰之效能分析與未來發展並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2021.823,"end":2046.271,"text":"主席,各位委員先進,今天非常榮幸邀到大院委員會進行專案報告,稱謀各位委員對國防創新小組的關切與指導,再次表達誠摯的謝意面對中共持續進行軍事擴張,威脅我國生存發展,國軍必須與時俱進,積極引進新興科技創新能力"},{"start":2050.225,"end":2065.22,"text":"有效運用整體國防資源,以強化國防實力,確保台海防衛不對稱優勢今天應邀至大院委員會實施專案報告,將針對本案引進新興科技之效能"},{"start":2066.368,"end":2079.818,"text":"及未來發展進行報告請各位委員持續支持各項國防創新事務推動接續由本部整平市苗會分市長向各位委員報告謝謝"},{"start":2091.325,"end":2118.294,"text":"主席各位委員大家好接續提報國防部創新小組將新興科技應用於不對稱作戰之效能分析與未來發展前言近年發生的戰爭與軍事衝突顯示戰爭形態正快速轉變從傳統大兵力與主戰裝備的對決轉向以大量低成本高效率新興科技為核心的不對稱作戰"},{"start":2120.134,"end":2135.174,"text":"無人系統及人工智慧應用已展現出高度作戰效益許多軍民通用技術的快速迭代與發展使資源有限的一方也能以較低成本取得顯著戰果重新塑造戰場態勢"},{"start":2138.555,"end":2165.905,"text":"對國軍而言面對潛在威脅理解並善用這些新興科技將是提升防衛能力建立嚇阻力量延緩衝突發生的重要基礎在此背景下本部成立國防創新小組肩負導入民間成熟科技產品推動智慧創新與加速國防應用的關鍵任務以科技驅動國防力量持續提升"},{"start":2167.97,"end":2184.918,"text":"國防創新發展籌貨途徑本部引進新興科技裝備細醫防衛作戰需求並考量產品成熟度選擇不同籌貨途徑協助軍種導入測試或建案部署相關途徑摘述以下"},{"start":2186.951,"end":2208.879,"text":"1.公开征求原型开发针对民间较成熟之技术或装备,经评估主要功能可满足任务需求,为需改进部分设计,将透过公开征集,评选民间厂商提供之方案,进行客制化演改或系统整合,完成原型开发纳入量产规划。"},{"start":2210.697,"end":2238.149,"text":"2.少量采购效益评估针对现货市场产品以小部队试用方式结合演训或日常使用环境验证作战运用效果经确认符合部队任务目标执行后续量产及部署3.直接建案或导入科研经评估符合我防卫作战场景且有战场时机由军种直接纳入建案采购"},{"start":2239.229,"end":2261.333,"text":"令針對具在地化發展潛力之民間新創技術推介中科院與原廠共同研發或系統整合透過科研案完成系統研製新興科技應用情形本部聚焦當前科技快速發展的各項領域以依前述途徑規劃執行案項並持續關注關鍵裝備之發展趨勢重點摘述如下"},{"start":2269.073,"end":2292.414,"text":"一、多元情资融合强化预警能力与情资研判AI分析及决策辅助工具发展已真成熟可迅速整合各类感测器及开源情资提升预警能力及分享共同图像一、敌我动态快速进行作战部署及建议接战优序加速击杀链运作与反应"},{"start":2293.803,"end":2311.02,"text":"本部課整體規劃建置情資整合系統結合軍事情報、衛星影像並引進民間開源情資藉資料融合及AI輔助分析強化對敵異常活動之掌握與示警提升情資研判精準度"},{"start":2312.947,"end":2335.247,"text":"無人機大規模應用與技術迭代當前各類無人機以大量部署運用於戰場執行擒肩針、攻擊、通訊中繼、電戰、後勤與救援等任務並整合AI及視覺導航等新興技術朝自主化、風群、跨系統協作等方向發展成為作戰部隊的標準裝備"},{"start":2338.568,"end":2366.18,"text":"為強化部隊戰場態勢感知國軍已編列特別預算規劃籌貨反甲、尖針及攻擊型等各類無人機21萬餘架將配合技術迭代發展持續強化自動目標識別與無GPS導引下自主航行功能對敵登陸部隊、裝甲部隊及運輸載具實施精準打擊3.地面無人載具投入多元場景"},{"start":2367.552,"end":2386.746,"text":"為降低人員傷亡風險減少後勤負擔各國開始部署或大量測試地面無人載具在戰場上的效益結合AI功能UGV已可投入偵查火力支援彈藥及傷源運送以及擔任無人機發射載台等任務"},{"start":2388.73,"end":2413.093,"text":"國軍已規劃導入機動性高、多功能及模組化之四足機器人無人運輸及戰術載具用於縱深城鎮作戰中執行偵查、遷敵及物資運補任務四、水面水下無人載具支援近海防禦作戰未來海上戰場已形成多層次立體化的攻防對抗"},{"start":2414.249,"end":2442.628,"text":"利用無人載具執行水面或水下環境的探測、監視、針裂雷及火力協同打擊提升任務彈性與效率為有效防禦海上威脅規劃籌建小型自殺無人艇及水下除雷無人載具增強禁岸防衛及反登陸戰力同時將測試快速運補無人船並協助外島之物資運輸作業提高作戰持續力"},{"start":2444.349,"end":2461.349,"text":"五 結合硬殺軟殺應對無人機威脅無人機與遊蕩彈藥已成為戰場主要空中威脅尤其在俄烏中東衝突中被大量使用的低成本自殺式無人機大幅改變防空作戰的模式"},{"start":2462.59,"end":2482.757,"text":"針對多樣化組合不同形式的無人攻擊機難以單一方案有效應對必須試情況配置多層次軟硬砂結合的反制手段兼採槍砲、電子干擾、雷射與高能微波及以更廉價的無人機進行攔截等為當前主要發展方向"},{"start":2484.891,"end":2507.707,"text":"國軍依據部隊防空及機動任務需要以規劃建置無人機電磁干擾裝置自動化防空槍塔無人機導控訊號偵測與源頭攻擊等裝備並持續研究雷射、高能微波及反無人機攔截器等新型態的防禦手段結合軟砂與硬砂確保對敵無人機的有效攔截"},{"start":2509.931,"end":2530.242,"text":"6.智慧化後勤系統提升整體效率為加強後勤補給效率各國軍隊積極導入大數據分析物聯網感測及雲端整合平台建置智慧化後勤系統即使掌握裝備庫存及妥善狀況精準預測需求降低缺料囤積與故障機率"},{"start":2532.745,"end":2552.727,"text":"本部推動建置智慧化後勤系統,透過預測性維修機制,在裝備發生故障前即進行維保,降低突發風險,提高妥善率。另運用智慧化倉儲管理技術,優化後勤場庫之空間及物資調度管理,縮短作業流程及時間。"},{"start":2555.275,"end":2571.181,"text":"7.多重通信备源确保指管不中断,因应暂时通信与指管设施遭干扰及破坏,各国持续增加通讯韧性及备源手段,确保在复杂电池环境下仍可进行指管及讯息传递。"},{"start":2572.657,"end":2594.63,"text":"本部持续建立多元通讯能量,并规划建置多重链路通联设备,整合光纤网路、无线电、微波、4G、5G及卫星等通知传输手段,运用AI进行链路自动化管理与分配,及时转换最佳通信备源路径,提升作战指管韧性。"},{"start":2596.69,"end":2616.216,"text":"8.自然AI技术防范进阶网路威胁AI技术发展下,自然防御重点由被动阻挡转向为主动侦测。透过机器学习演算法,系统可及时辨识网路异常行为并主动封锁、清除威胁,大幅缩短应变时间。"},{"start":2617.717,"end":2635.254,"text":"為確保資訊安全本部引進資安弱點掃描攻擊預警系統借AI演算法快速掃描各類資訊設備找出資安漏洞並及時修補在遭遇攻擊時由AI協助阻斷攻擊行動及快速復原"},{"start":2638.573,"end":2653.301,"text":"結語 現代戰爭提供的寶貴經驗對我建軍備戰極具參考價值國軍將持續深化國防創新加速新興科技導入使中共在評估行動成本及風險時面臨更高的不確定"},{"start":2654.915,"end":2681.166,"text":"進而延遲犯台決策國防創新小組扮演橋樑與催化的角色藉由多元導入的籌貨策略確保科技優勢能迅速轉化為實際戰力本部將在大院的支持與指導下持續制度化推動與投入資源擴大新興科技在國防各領域之應用必創造不對稱優勢確保國家安全以上報告"},{"start":2684.397,"end":2702.982,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝趙偉我們有請顧部長"},{"start":2713.258,"end":2720.886,"text":"請顧部長部長早是陳委員長部長從剛剛市長的這個開頭報告也述明了那近年來我們從這個俄烏戰爭到近期的這個中東衝突我們不斷在討論"},{"start":2732.791,"end":2752.11,"text":"這個現代戰場形態的一個快速改變情況那國防部也為了因應這樣的趨勢除了積極發展高科技低成本高效率的這個不對稱戰力那也在兩年前參考這個美國的國防創新單位DIU的模式我們也成立了國防創新小組的DIO"},{"start":2752.811,"end":2778.239,"text":"那從今天報告內容來看DIO主要負責是評估並引進新興的科技包括透過小批量的這個採購原型開發和測試來加速我們國軍戰力的一個現代化那我想這和我們傳統的這個軍備採購有本質上的差異那這些新興的這個科技裝備的籌貨除了技術展示之外在我們建軍備戰上當中"},{"start":2780.98,"end":2794.344,"text":"究竟扮演什麼樣的一個角色這部分我想請教部長是我們透過國防創新小組籌獲新興的科技裝備的核心目的是什麼那實際上是如何結合到我們國軍的作戰構想當中"},{"start":2798.241,"end":2823.375,"text":"跟委員報告,就是說我們原來的不管是比如說我們採軍購或商購然後或者另外我們先請中科研做這個科研然後再進行維治等等這些途徑之外那麼現在因為新興科技在這個防衛作戰上面佔了很重要的一部分所以我們對於屬於新興科技的部分我們透過兩個途徑一個是"},{"start":2825.031,"end":2845.484,"text":"我們做一個公開徵求的原型開發另外一個是小批量的採購那小批量的採購我們會用這個小部隊實驗的方式來降低這個這個我們的就是說要驗證之後我們再進行量產來降低這個風險那這個相關的這個"},{"start":2849.556,"end":2876.876,"text":"這些案件我們都會依據作戰構想跟作戰需求那由DIO做一個媒介,然後請各軍種然後各聯參,然後大家一起評估評估之後經過總長跟副部長來共同主持審查會議,再向我提報然後我們核定之後呢,然後來進行這個原型開發跟小批量採購好,那我們這個DIO成立到"},{"start":2877.918,"end":2903.054,"text":"至今也都已經差不多兩年了兩年多那實際上究竟推動了哪些具體的項目從我們目前公開的資料來看它有涉及到各式無人載具還有AI輔助系統甚至是智慧化的後勤系統等等那因為這些新興科技建案所具備的特性如果是走傳統的流程"},{"start":2903.544,"end":2928.028,"text":"恐怕裝備拿到手的時候技術已經過期了那是不是請部長再進一步說明國防創新小組目前所提出的有哪些的這個案項需求而這些項目的這個經費是納入我們年度預算還是運用特別預算來支應跟委員報告就是說在115年的小批量採購還有原型開發在小批量採購的部分大概有10案"},{"start":2928.668,"end":2936.234,"text":"那麼原型開發的部分有三案但是這個我們都採公開的方式來進行這個徵求"},{"start":2939.417,"end":2961.846,"text":"我們直接在現貨市場要進行採購,但因為我們這個要等到115年的預算通過那因為115年的預算,迄今還沒有通過,所以我們現在已經有這些相關的案子那我們到116年的案項是規劃的其實有更多,小片項採購應該有到達16案"},{"start":2963.286,"end":2984.433,"text":"那麼原型開發的案子有四案,那這些都會納入我們今年再提出的這個預算,年度預算當中好,那在幾項的這個新興科技應用當中,我們這幾年常聽到中共很喜歡用這個機器狗來作為宣傳那我們也早在這個演習當中"},{"start":2987.227,"end":3013.328,"text":"他們也納入使用那我想這也是我們國軍目前積極發展的一個項目之一因為它具備良好的這個機動力和平衡性這一項報告更有提到未來會規劃用於這個縱深城鎮作戰當中這部分我想了解的是有關我們國軍所研製的這個機器狗目前它開發的這個進度如何什麼時候有機會可以提供給我們需要的單位來部署運用"},{"start":3013.968,"end":3030.669,"text":"那先前這個中科院曾經在新聞稿所提及的這個熱像夜視鏡的部分也有表示要結合在機器口上那目前成果如何?有沒有新增其他的這個功能?中科院的部分是不是前進?"},{"start":3032.651,"end":3055.447,"text":"跟我們報告那個機器狗並不是由我們中科院獨立開發的最主要是從國外引進現成的技術但是我們跟他的合約上是協助他在台灣建立供應鏈尤其是把他原本裡面的東西能夠排紅那第二個就是他的相關經費來源是從國科會提供給國家實驗研究院成立的國家機器人研究中心"},{"start":3056.468,"end":3076.221,"text":"裡面的相關經費來支應,中科院只是配合國科會還有國家實驗研究院還有民間的企業,共同來執行這個機器狗的開發任務它那個開發任務是由民間向國科院申請的,所以我們民間有一定的這個能量存在,那中科院在協助這樣那另外剛剛的確我們的熱顯像的"},{"start":3078.806,"end":3099.957,"text":"相關的元件都已經應用在這支機器狗上面好 已經用上去 是那它有沒有其他的功能再加上去我們現在對它的功能就努力去開發它各樣各型不同的功能包含巡檢 巡檢就包含國軍的巡檢 重要基礎設施的巡檢還有特殊行業的巡檢 例如氣體的偵測或者是"},{"start":3102.878,"end":3127.128,"text":"噪音的偵測那比較危險的場域就是讓這種機器狗來執行相關的工作那我們最近也一直在談論這個AI輔導的導入輔助的導入那它的重要性是能夠在大量偵詢的這個情緒當中迅速識別敵方的異常活動並且提供給我們接站優序的一個建議縮短決策的一個反應時間"},{"start":3128.348,"end":3148.315,"text":"那如果我們的這個情監偵的系統不能結合AI輔助單靠人力來判讀,恐怕難以應對未來可能遭受的這個攻擊而這個DIO在去年2月有徵集衛星影像AI自動的辨識案子那今年也要執行原型開發我想請問部長,國防部我們怎麼評估這個案子"},{"start":3151.796,"end":3170.413,"text":"縮短這個擊殺鏈反應時間的效益,那對於我們提升衛星傾收的這個能量又有什麼樣一個重要性?衛星影像AI自動辨識主要在縮短人工判讀衛星影像所需要的時間,來做一個自動化比對相關的這些我們要"},{"start":3171.877,"end":3200.874,"text":"就是要Target這些目標,然後加速情報處理的流程然後我們就提供不但做情報演習,也有做擊殺鏈加速的一個運作那相關在TIO裡面,它有一個原型開發案,屬於衛星影像的AI辨識等等我們另外也會有跟這個相關的太空中心會做一些合作這樣子"},{"start":3202.193,"end":3221.176,"text":"好 那從去年公布的這個國防報告書當中我們也看到這個DIO優先關注領域就包括這個反制無人系統那我們也看到國軍近期有提出小批量採購輕兵器火控系統的需求然而我們面對這個敵方多樣的無人機"},{"start":3222.978,"end":3246.134,"text":"種類還有彈藥使用我們應該是不會只靠一個手段而是必須結合軟硬砂的技術有更多層次的一個應對策略那我想請問部長有關DIO目前推動中的反無人機的裝備包括報告當中提及電磁干擾、自動化防空槍塔等等"},{"start":3246.674,"end":3267.848,"text":"是否能夠大規模部署在我們城鎮防衛或是關鍵的基礎設施的防務當中跟委員報告就是說反制無人機的剛剛在報告裡面提到那個反制手段相當多啦那我們現行的就軟殺跟硬殺的部分在我們可吸收的無人機系統有沒有放在特別預算裡面那另外"},{"start":3268.717,"end":3287.412,"text":"我們也還會研究,這個是連級以上的,還有可吸濕的無人機管制系統另外剛剛您提到的包括自動化槍打、鉛壁的火控系統等等這些我想都會涉及到硬殺的部分,我們會進行一個小批量的採購來進行驗證"},{"start":3289.614,"end":3307.377,"text":"那其他還有包括有放在這個反制務人形容用攔截器的這個等等,軟硬砂間距的部分,我們有放在特別預算裡面那等等以上這些好,謝謝部長,以上謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3323.63,"end":3324.534,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請顧部長"},{"start":3334.609,"end":3348.201,"text":"是 蘿薇部長長 剛剛如同我們的報告裡面所提到的DIO其實是扮演了橋樑跟催化的角色我們除了從民間引進承受的技術經過我們國防創新小組的需求的確認然後公開徵集 方案的評估依照實戰的需求 我們再來做專案的籌貨"},{"start":3362.392,"end":3385.397,"text":"就如刚刚军医委员又提到其实这些武器的筹获其实是需要预算来做支持后续的军购或者是种种其实都需要预算的支持可是很可惜的不管是我们的一般预算也好或者是国防特别预算其实全部都卡"},{"start":3386.378,"end":3407.535,"text":"那之前在去年十一月底的時候呢國防部曾經發布就是說創新小組規劃在一百一十五年要來籌貨細流型無人機人蟹刺針飛機模擬器或者是親式的野戰型氣象觀測系統那還有呢同時還辦理這個衛星影像的AI自動變質等等像這些系統"},{"start":3410.037,"end":3428.977,"text":"我們本來都是預計要在一百一十五年的時候要委由民間的廠商原型來做開發那可是呢我在想應該這一切都卡關了吧一百一十五年我們目前所規劃的這些武器的籌貨是不是到目前為止呢都是沒有進度的請問部長"},{"start":3429.818,"end":3452.968,"text":"就是國防創意小組所規劃的在115年小批量採購還有原型開發在安鄉要等預算通過才能執行對嘛 其實就是預算都完全卡關所以我們本原先要規劃的這一切呢其實到目前為止完全沒有進度嘛除非是說我們預算能夠通過那剛剛我有聽部長在講就是說其實像"},{"start":3454.588,"end":3474.997,"text":"這些規劃的武器的籌貨其實有些是在一般的公務預算有些是在特別預算裡面國防創新小組少量採購跟原型開發都放在年度預算裡面都是在年度預算嘛可是我們本來115年度我們本來是想要大量採購還是說只是做小型的採購"},{"start":3479.201,"end":3494.498,"text":"小量的採購所以115年不管是無人機也好或是AI影像其實我們本來就是規劃是說小量的剛剛我有提到夜市跟溪流行多走的無人機我們就想要拿來做驗證然後還有光纖的無人機我們要拿來做驗證"},{"start":3495.439,"end":3519.297,"text":"是 所以在目前為止的話因為預算卡關 所以到目前為止的話都沒有進度所以我們現在是希望就是說真的期待這個在野黨趕快來做這個預算的這個審議因為如果國防專制小組完成了審查測試跟原型驗證之後如果說國家沒有一個很穩定的預算去做懲戒的話其實國防自主很可能就卡在最後一里路"},{"start":3519.617,"end":3540.363,"text":"好 那再來我要提到就是說日本 日本政府在4月21號修訂了防衛裝備移轉三原則然後呢 也就是說它撤銷了原本僅限於救難跟運輸等用途的這個五類型的限制等於是實質開放的這個武器的出口而且出口的這對象呢我們有發現說日本其實它有更"},{"start":3541.583,"end":3554.546,"text":"17個國家簽署了裝備與技術移轉的這個協定那像另外呢還有這個加拿大到目前也有簽署可是還沒有生效西班牙跟這芬蘭呢還在談判當中所以未來可能呢會有高達20國呢跟這個日本來做這個協定的這個簽署可是身為第一島鏈的這個台灣目前並沒有納入我想請問部長這個未來有沒有機會因為日本在"},{"start":3570.209,"end":3588.901,"text":"海控監督跟防空飛彈跟島嶼防衛等領域他們都是有具備成熟的這個技術而且發展方向跟我國面對這個台海防衛需求是高度的來重疊所以對這個部分的我們未來有可能會納入這一個他這個所謂裝備與技術遺傳協定的這個簽署國裡面嗎有機會嗎 請問部長我想剛剛委員已經說明了就是他現在"},{"start":3598.288,"end":3624.578,"text":"防衛裝備遺傳三原則裡面有提到那他能夠輸出的國家就是跟他有這個裝備遺傳協定的這些國家那我想我們目前並沒有跟他有這樣的一個協定存在當然目前是沒有未來未來有機會嗎我想我們沒有辦法能夠排除任何的可能性但是我想這個"},{"start":3627.963,"end":3632.944,"text":"應該只能說我們目前並沒有跟他有過有這樣子的遺傳的協定存在"},{"start":3634.103,"end":3658.221,"text":"那當然我還有看到一份報告就是在4月24號中國商務部他發布了一個公告他宣稱要將7家歐盟實體列入出口管制管控名單宣傳這些歐盟實體能曾經參與對台軍售所以我在想這個部分會不會讓其他想要跟台灣合作不管是軍售也好或是"},{"start":3658.641,"end":3684.472,"text":"技術交流的國家呢產生殺雞儆猴的這個效應讓有些國家甚至會覺得說不太敢跟台灣在這方面有這個交流會嗎?會不會影響?中國實施這樣子的一個作為應該不是第一次了吧應該它對過去以來對於供應我們軍售相關的這些公司等等都有實施這些有關"},{"start":3686.373,"end":3700.703,"text":"所謂把他列入禁止往來清單裡面等等我的瞭解應該不是第一次但我想這樣的一個作為就我的理解並不影響我們繼續在"},{"start":3705.458,"end":3731.357,"text":"能透過這個相關多元的管道來籌貨的這樣子的一個情況所以部長覺得說其實是不會受影響所以日本這裡其實我們也可以再繼續來做努力那甚至呢有專家學者甚至還可以還提到就是說如果日本他擔心中國這一部分的話那甚至可以進一步建立台日美三邊合作的模式就是以第三國的模式來做進行"},{"start":3731.957,"end":3751.194,"text":"所以這個當然我們希望就是說尤其是在現在中國的這個軍事擴張的情況之下我不敢看歐美國家或者是說這個印太地區的國家大家都在增加這個國防軍備的這個預算那或者是說能夠做這個結盟來互相來做一個團體的一個防衛"},{"start":3753.435,"end":3776.228,"text":"那我们也希望说身在这个第一岛链的台湾我们的地理位置我们更应该成为他们其中的这个一员所以我们也希望就是说国防的这个军备预算那今天下午呢我们国防特别条例呢就要来进行这个协商也希望就是说在野党能够呢秉持理性那个保护台湾保护国家的这个立场呢来进行"},{"start":3776.428,"end":3795.134,"text":"支持我們行政院國防部所提出來這個條例然後後續讓預算的攏顧順利的來進行這是本席在這個下午的這個協商之前對在野黨的一個呼籲部長還要補充嗎我只想要說明您剛好提到這個"},{"start":3796.724,"end":3810.022,"text":"我最近看到日本的防衛大臣已經也提到了他們要發展那個無人機的一個國防制組也發表了相關的文件然後我也看到韓國韓國他也提到了他要"},{"start":3811.004,"end":3832.817,"text":"他光一年吧,好像明年開始要籌購一萬多家,然後澳洲,澳洲我也看到相關的,他要用大概121澳元到151澳元,未來也要進行無人機的籌購,還有反制無人機他要發揮71澳元,我看到相關的他們的"},{"start":3833.892,"end":3855.953,"text":"這個NDS裡面有做過這樣的一個說明那這些都顯示對於這些這種無人機或者無人載具在相關的戰場上面的運用,大家都高度的重視所以在這個部分我想我們也需要來加速來建構這樣子"},{"start":3857.114,"end":3866.604,"text":"對 因為無人載具在國防特別條例在野黨是把它刪除掉的這個真的是非常的匪夷所思好 以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3887.188,"end":3890.99,"text":"主席有請顧部長顧長早安我想這一次我們這篇報告裡面引述了我們如何藉助美國DIO成立這個新觀念的經驗然後我們成立了DIO是不是請苗師長一起"},{"start":3921.741,"end":3938.653,"text":"我们在这张图表里面根据国防部的论述我把你表格化就是从特点目标方法手段成功的因素都把它列选出来了那么再下一页就是说我们成立创新条组请问我们目前的人才够不够"},{"start":3942.898,"end":3968.076,"text":"委員您說到就是人才夠不夠那就我們DIO這一兩年來的這個運作情況我們當然覺得人才會越多越好所以在人才的部分我們除了這個文官跟君子以外我們有約聘的人員那另外我們也跟中科院借將就是他們有專門的人會在我們這邊駐點協助我們那另外我們也跟"},{"start":3969.437,"end":3983.565,"text":"工研院去做專案的委託然後他們會幫我們去了解這個國內外的這些新興科技的發展趨勢所以跟各單位有一些相關的配合所以我們持續爭取人才"},{"start":3985.167,"end":4002.518,"text":"我提出建議就是說對所有的科技發展或是專案管理人才是最重要的那麼通常我們投資在硬體上或者軟體上這個東西都持續在增加但是唯一的就是在人才上這個人才包括"},{"start":4003.939,"end":4031.856,"text":"比方講三軍官校子參到戰略教育因為你們有很多將來都借重AI的功能那麼AI它現在如果談AI人人都會講AI在坊間的軟體開放式的軟體或是少量價錢的軟體不同的公司也都有可是這種東西雲端在國外你可以用它問一個淺顯的問題但是你問了深入的東西你的資料庫就跑到人家的系統裡去了"},{"start":4032.316,"end":4046.973,"text":"所以培养人才就是说用这个DIO办公室做一个方向跟我们的这个所谓的人力师啊这个教育的管理的里面希望在三军官校在只参教育"},{"start":4047.734,"end":4061.586,"text":"那麼乃至於站院要開始導入這種新的課程因為現在是年輕人進步快資深的長官可能只是聽聞那真正使用這個的終究是少數那很多的圖像可以做出建議"},{"start":4063.496,"end":4088.324,"text":"比方来讲就这个我们导入AI那么事实上我们现在先讲一个就是说国内的整合防空系统就是台湾之盾实际上是构建在现在三军既有的指管系统再加上美军提供的先进系统不管你讲C5ISR或是加上targeting那么你要做多轨追踪情资融合整合网络"},{"start":4089.404,"end":4114.078,"text":"複合圖像AI的發展跟整合但是最終使用者是使用者負責任所以我們剛剛提到很多的無人載具像20萬架無人機他這個百分比有多少是用於陸上的那這個比較單純那多少是用到海空徵詢就是離開本島的因為您剛剛提到裡面我們現在系統發展過程中包括"},{"start":4115.259,"end":4119.933,"text":"這個使用GPS被蓋台被干擾其他的功能都被"},{"start":4121.604,"end":4146.37,"text":"降低了那這個時候在路上啊我們有很多的方法可是在海空遠距離的你沒有GPS沒有衛星鏈路那這個功能就受限了那希望在這個上面我們可能要持續強化那並不是只於路上用的小型無人機因為無人機現在剛剛在這個簡報的內容啊裡面提到他有兩種一種是完全自主性的一種是"},{"start":4147.49,"end":4166.784,"text":"遙控的也就是說我們現在做的申請駕照這個所謂的license合格簽證實際上是這是遙控系統可以傳畫面傳推但是如果wifi不通這個微波不足機動台不夠像您剛剛報的有委員講甚至我們用細流式中繼台"},{"start":4167.685,"end":4182.686,"text":"大型无人机都可以做中继通信我想这个整体的运用作战构想可能要及早纳入到教育训练的方式而不是说我买硬体那只是用单向的评估那后面这个图其实做参考因为这个"},{"start":4183.789,"end":4211.463,"text":"台灣之盾實際上是中高空低空跟美軍現在軍售提供的武器要使我們現有的武器Sensor端整個做一個整合在這個裡面空軍是擁有最多的防空遠程涵蓋那麼將來導入的IBCS它的功能很強可是它在一個中間的地位所以海空軍的東西要用IBS做介面可能在軟體的發展中需要一段時間那麼"},{"start":4214.332,"end":4235.255,"text":"这边显示了空军是我们发展远程监控最早的天网强网环网环展一直到今年底要结案验收寒展他把海空军是做了整合但是这部分的资讯将来要回售到所谓的IBCS这个里面就是一个这个是工情显示的"},{"start":4236.036,"end":4261.306,"text":"用距离显示的涵盖范围但是这个并不能代表是武器跟sensor涵盖因为其实针对不同的雷达截面机不同的高度跟雷达的涵盖波数都不一样但是这是一种工情显示可是从这个观念就进来了就要显示我们买了很多先进的武器还要结合我们国内的武器透过这个整合希望把它的功能强化"},{"start":4263.229,"end":4280.802,"text":"這個就是說系統的整合要有穩定的可靠運作要有支援度有獨立運作也及時互通這個東西中科院是扮演很重要的角色本席在這邊一直強調中科院不能夠是說我做組合約商"},{"start":4281.822,"end":4306.791,"text":"TRL789要掌握但是456你要給他足夠的預算他還是要培養人才不能說我只做高端的整合我想中科院有這個想法那最後的建議就是自主的韌性充實國防產業跟能力要構成軍工產業鏈這個我們是完全支持回到最後的原則就是加速國防科技的DIU"},{"start":4307.765,"end":4336.059,"text":"无人的指管无人的载具反制系统是我们都认同优先但这里面有一个优点也是一个限制因素就是我们这些无人系统autonomous是man in the loopon the loop还是out of the loop这个里面都跟我们的所谓的ROE跟战备规定最后就是我们授权责的长官的负责那我想这些问题请部长做一点指导给我们做个回应"},{"start":4337.642,"end":4360.416,"text":"您是說相關的ROE跟那個的部分的結合嗎?因為ROE的部分現在在我們的相關的演練當中,我們都在律定相關的ROE的部分那您談到的是無人的系統會不會跟我們的ROE有一些規則做了一些"},{"start":4361.943,"end":4388.502,"text":"一些誤判還是相關的那我覺得這個議題始終是存在的那麼我只能夠說最後還是要就像您講的要讓人來做最後的一個決策衡量AI就是一個輔助決策系統那主要的決策應該還是在這個指揮官的手上"},{"start":4390.049,"end":4401.688,"text":"好謝謝部長我們大家共同努力是謝謝好謝謝謝謝蔡永康委員接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":4414.405,"end":4421.289,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長還有政治作戰局使局長請顧部長 使局長林委好部長早 我今天要問的先從時事題開始我想這個假日呢"},{"start":4435.475,"end":4446.562,"text":"退役少校呂理師的這個言行我想引起了廣大的討論我想先說結論那就是許多的民眾都向我反映那就是我們辛苦的納稅錢絕對不養這種"},{"start":4450.32,"end":4472.75,"text":"親中舔共的退役軍官而他其實已經不是第一次了他2024年11月的時候就參加了中國珠海的航展然後大戰解放軍很強大2025年的9月呢他參加了九三閱兵然後口出狂言說法律制約不了我制裁不了我然後"},{"start":4474.142,"end":4496.72,"text":"4月也就是前幾天他就參加了中共海軍77週年的這個慶祝典禮我想部長應該有看到這樣的新聞對不對而且也看到了他的言行我想問的是這樣的言行一出來是不是會對國軍造成現役的軍人造成什麼樣的影響那麼對於政治作戰局來講有沒有去做了解部長我想對於"},{"start":4504.711,"end":4521.765,"text":"這位少校他淪為中共統戰的工具為敵喉舌,我們發表這種輕痛醜快的不當言論,我們都表示痛心也深感不辭那我們現在也"},{"start":4523.948,"end":4547.404,"text":"配合這個陸委會有提出這個兩岸條例的一個修正草案嘛那這個兩岸條本來是適用於少將以上那現在是適用於少校而且有領業推奉的部分那所以相關有損害國家尊嚴的這些樣子的一個行為我想我們透過這樣的一個修法是不是能夠有一個"},{"start":4550.393,"end":4555.026,"text":"有一個機制來加以處理,這是我們希望能夠修法盡速通過"},{"start":4556.001,"end":4583.259,"text":"好 因為本席認為這已經不是所謂的言論自由啦就像剛剛我前面質詢的是陳永康委員 陳將軍他在他的位子上面他還是儘量的希望為國軍提供他的建言不論是軍事策略上面的各方面我相信所有的退役的軍官他們都是保持著當年的這種愛國心繼續的在他們的崗位上面做努力跟奉獻而更不要講這個第一線"},{"start":4585.1,"end":4603.412,"text":"的國軍弟兄們當我們在討論這些武器討論國防預算的時候甚至於有人是在後面扯後腿直接去讚揚說解放軍的強大就是台灣的安全然後把它視為祖國我覺得這種敵我不分已經是就像部長所講的就是配合中共的認知戰而剛剛部長也特別提到了就是這個我們現在的現行法令是只管規範到少將以上"},{"start":4615.3,"end":4620.806,"text":"那這一位他是少校那我稍微查了一下現在少校的一個月的退休分至少四萬對嗎"},{"start":4626.906,"end":4652.549,"text":"來 沒有關係有什麼可以現在目前我想知道一下因為我想很多民眾可能都不知道也就是說雖然這個薪水不應該說這個退休金不高但也不低這個是一般四萬多少好 可不可以哪一位大概四萬五千塊左右"},{"start":4653.422,"end":4659.892,"text":"四萬五千塊,然後可以領二十年對不對?還是?如果說他是滿二十年,他可以領綜生"},{"start":4663.464,"end":4690.562,"text":"如果他是服役滿20年還可以領終身是好也就是說這樣一個從2024年到現在一路以來不斷的到對岸去然後配合中國的認知作戰然後在中國的不論是抖音或是小紅書上面不斷的就是讚揚解放軍然後對於台灣現役的這些我們的第一線的軍人根本就是幫著對方"},{"start":4692.464,"end":4697.394,"text":"來對我們自己施加壓力然後稱讚我們的所謂每天對我們這個"},{"start":4699.891,"end":4725.662,"text":"軍艦然後這個火炮相對的這樣的一個解放軍然後他是一個月可以領四萬如果可能的話還可以領一輩子的終身奉但是我們看到的是其實不是沒有提案這幾天網路上許多的朋友都在反映說可不可以拿掉他的終身奉其實是因為法規我們曾經提出要修法我們民進黨也有立委要修法但是被藍白用復義的方式擱置了"},{"start":4727.523,"end":4747.753,"text":"所以言下之意就是我們現行的法規是陸海空軍軍官士官規範的是現役的軍人退役的話就必須在上將以上言下之意這個果然他講的是沒錯啦少校是管不到那部長剛剛說了已經會配合陸委會來進行修法那目前的進度到哪裡"},{"start":4748.996,"end":4772.027,"text":"我了解應該陸委會在去年12月12月已經送到大院來了好 所以說也就是卡在立法院裡面所以今天站在這個質詢台上我也要呼籲藍白的立法委員在你們一手幫現役軍人加薪用現役軍人加薪案來卡住總預算的同時事實上你們一手根本就是在當這些"},{"start":4774.214,"end":4792.708,"text":"親中舔共的退役軍官的保護傘跟遮羞布因為我要再一次強調其實不只是民進黨有提案現在陸委會也有提案可是這個案子被擱置在立法院裡頭所以這個案子可以過關也可以把它堵起來"},{"start":4793.268,"end":4819.394,"text":"只要藍白的委員願意真的對我們現役的軍人拿出一點誠意那就是讓他們知道他們保家衛國的時候這些扯後腿親中舔共的退役軍官不要再拿人民的納稅錢如果你們要舔共就讓共產黨去養就跟共產黨要錢不要拿我們人民的納稅錢這是我今天在這裡我最想表達的部分"},{"start":4820.194,"end":4824.671,"text":"那謝謝你們請回接下來我要講的另外一個是部長我想其實從這個"},{"start":4827.799,"end":4856.818,"text":"我來到國防外交委員會之後非常關注的就是第一線的我們現役的國軍弟兄到底還需要什麼樣的幫助那麼當時其實我們在關心國軍弟兄的時候就會發現說其實很多這種被中共滲透的這些第一線的弟兄現役弟兄們他們事實上一開始並不是真正的想要成為這個中共滲透的幫兇而是因為他們常常因為有一些資金上無法"},{"start":4858.355,"end":4871.309,"text":"這個所謂周轉的時候那麼誤入歧途可能跟一些不是這麼正派或者是灰色的管道來借錢那麼這時候我就提案在主決議當中希望國防部要研擬喔這個軍廚業務的轉型那麼在"},{"start":4874.352,"end":4888.365,"text":"今年也就是1月1號國軍是正式的有了所謂國軍軍官的急難貸款那麼當然我們第一季過了因為現在剛好是4月我想問一下部長或者是主計局就是現在成效如何"},{"start":4890.218,"end":4918.824,"text":"現在統計到4月24日為止,總共核貸了669件,金額來到2億3千餘萬元那其中就是小額紓困佔了近50%,然後另外還有育嬰貸款這兩個部分就佔了大眾這樣因為小額紓困他比較容易啦,就是我覺得是因為他不需要保"},{"start":4921.175,"end":4936.766,"text":"10萬塊以下不需要保證人所以如果對有緊急需求的我們想透過來有一些幫助因為本席要特別強調的是說像我們從集體的共諜案都會發生其實它的一開始的第一步都是非常小的金額"},{"start":4937.406,"end":4965.266,"text":"甚至於兩萬三萬四萬當新聞曝光的時候大家都會覺得說完全不可思議怎麼會是這麼低的金額就可以讓他們以身涉險有的時候真的是因為在軍中可能沒有辦法有機會緊急的做紓困所以本席還是要再一次的肯定就是說對於我們從今年開始有這種十萬以下免擔保的這樣的緊急紓困的方案那麼至於說在軍中的宣傳如何我認為是有一定的成效啦那麼"},{"start":4966.347,"end":4973.949,"text":"雖然說現在目前是467件然後金額是1億5500多萬是嗎669件669件兩億多了已經到了兩億多兩億三千多萬了好 我認為這筆錢只要是花在刀口上是現役的軍官需求的我認為都應該要繼續的來給予他們協助因為有的時候真的是在我們"},{"start":4989.893,"end":5005.108,"text":"無法了解或不知道的地方當中當他們有需求的時候在軍中讓他們安心那麼也可以解決他們需求也可以減少他們成為國安的破口是 這也是我們當時的一個目的之一好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":5024.522,"end":5026.008,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":5034.344,"end":5056.971,"text":"是 省委部長好 那這個當然今天很多大家都是在關心這一個呂律師這樣的一個案件那因為這個畢竟兩岸條例的這個修正是要擺到內政委員會那我們有幾個版本我記得院版的是已經被複印掉了但是也有幾個版本已經進入到內政委員會其實也有詢答"},{"start":5057.671,"end":5077.501,"text":"那雖然這個是內政委員會的事情但不知道國防部的態度如何就是在於這一個九之三現在要把它範圍拉大是不是要把校級的也放進去他有這種有害這個國家尊嚴的行為是否應該要去做相對應的處置不知道國防部的看法如何"},{"start":5078.141,"end":5093.636,"text":"這個單是在法案研議的時候都是官部協同陸委會一起研擬的所以是有經過跨部會的同意的因為只是說有些版本都被復印掉了那現在看起來內政委員會是網美會委員的版本在審查"},{"start":5094.156,"end":5110.567,"text":"那在審查的時候呢如果說後續因為畢竟它的版本跟這個院版也有不同之處它的範圍也不一樣就是要不要把校級的這一個放進去所以希望國防部到時候再堅持原本院版的這一個意見然後在內政委員會如果進入主條的話能夠去表達對 我們對於這個"},{"start":5115.745,"end":5128.116,"text":"這個退役的軍人他們尤其有領退休奉的越退休奉我們認為他還是對國家附有一個忠誠義務那所以有違反這樣子的一個忠誠義務做出損害國家尊嚴的這個相關的行為的"},{"start":5132.018,"end":5160.225,"text":"確定的話我們認為我們支持這樣的一個修法好那接下來就是說我還是回到軍購的問題就是說呢這一個上個禮拜一我們有這一個機密的專報那因為這次機密的專報呢也有一些是新任的委員並沒有這個聽到所以我們有看到也有新任的委員進來聆聽這一次那這一次也比較多的細節那但是呢我這個我覺得比較麻煩的地方就是既然今天也會討論到無人機"},{"start":5161.525,"end":5187.463,"text":"那上次部長其實也有提到就是這個Paparo他說這個中國想要打造一支這個無人機的部隊作為進攻部隊的先鋒那所以呢大量部署運用低成本而且可消耗的彈藥讓防禦方式更有利但前提是必須要有人工智慧的工具來進行指揮那這個呢其實因為今天下午又要再進入一次的協商那這個協商這一次呢又是要進對項目跟金額這兩件事"},{"start":5190.365,"end":5217.62,"text":"所以我是希望說當然部長可以再次說明一下就是說現在我們所有的這一個防空不管今天是武器不管是我們今天要有精準的火砲還是要海馬式等等之類的它其實還需要當然第一個是無人機相關的部署第二個它需要人工智慧工具的這個指揮這看起來是非常必要的一環不然的話就好像我們今天有手有腳但是沒有大腦"},{"start":5218.42,"end":5236.268,"text":"沒有大腦的話那你光是有手有腳你沒有大腦這個手腳沒有辦法運作那我覺得這當然是今天下午非常重要的一環那在機密會議的時候呢其實這件事情當然已經非常深入的討論過但是我可以在有公開資訊的因為目前國防部還是有公開的資訊"},{"start":5237.148,"end":5257.302,"text":"國防部有這些所謂 比如說精準的火炮目前可能有哪些遠程精準的打擊飛彈有哪些無人載具有哪一些可公開的目前來講國防部是有公開但是你看在這個週末裡面我們又可以看到網路上的聲音以往都是說這個國防部都沒有跟委員說明"},{"start":5258.243,"end":5286.989,"text":"其實已經說明了嘛已經開了兩次機密會議了只是很多人不來聽嘛但現在周末在講的事情已經倒過來他說是他說國防部不是說沒有跟委員說明是說沒有跟國人說明但這個從去年記者會一直到現在我們每一次公開的協商都一直在講說它的目的到底是什麼我們為什麼要做這件事情為什麼防空系統如此重要為什麼需要人工智慧這些事情其實講得非常的清楚"},{"start":5287.429,"end":5298.255,"text":"但我希望在這一邊呢既然周末又在故意惡意造謠說沒有跟國人說明是否可以針對剛剛講的無人載具跟人工智慧的部分再跟國人說明一次"},{"start":5299.461,"end":5328.209,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這一次有公布的這些無人載具特別是無人載具跟他的反制系統基本上來講已經就我們要籌貨的這些項目做了一個完整的說明只是有關相關的這些作戰運用部分因為涉及到我們國軍的一個整個作戰的機密的部分沒有公開但基本上來講你可以看到就是說我們"},{"start":5329.393,"end":5352.808,"text":"瑞英二型的無人機,它可以做長時間的搜尋所以它對於我們的ISR的能力,它可以提供一個相當的情資進來有關濱海健身型的無人機,同樣也是相關的另外垂直起降"},{"start":5354.011,"end":5383.272,"text":"智慧型的無人機也是如此那另外有一個部分就是說我們必須要有一些這個大量的無人機在我們的這個六年之內我們採購20萬這個部分要稍微也要說明一下就是說因為這是一個國防自主能力提升的一個重要性那因為如果你要推動這個整個無人機產業鏈的話那國防部當然是作為最大的一個需求單位那如果我們有這樣子的一個"},{"start":5383.968,"end":5412.554,"text":"排除紅色供應鏈能夠來扶植整個國內無人載具的產業鏈發展,我覺得光部一方面能夠提升我們作戰效能,那一方面又能夠推動國防自主,那國防自主強化我們防衛人心,那一方面能夠強化部隊人戰力,然後掌握這個台海的這個局勢,那我想能夠突破這個年度軍頭預算這種的限制,讓我們能夠一次規模穩定的情況預算穩定的情況之下來"},{"start":5414.958,"end":5433.325,"text":"來建置這樣的快速增長我們的戰力我覺得還是要請各位委員能夠予以支持另外這個裡面還有一些反制的無人機系統反制無人機系統我覺得也相當重要"},{"start":5434.529,"end":5451.689,"text":"我們有提到就是不管是我們國防創新小組對一些新型的甚至我們可能要再往更新型的剛剛提到像雷射、高冷微波等等這些對群峰式的攻擊的這些東西然後我們甚至要"},{"start":5453.15,"end":5468.321,"text":"要救無人機的部分,因為現在剛剛陳鴻航議員也提到你高空的部分,那這個當然有高空的空軍的部分但是我們要注意到一些比較慢速的,然後甚至再造低的無人機的相關的系統"},{"start":5469.362,"end":5488.014,"text":"這些都要加以建制,然後當然最好都能夠相關做一些情緒融合然後來進行做一個有效的一個結紗這整個是一個完備的一個要我們未來規劃的一個部分那我們有一些部分會尋剛剛講光創意小組的一個採購跟原型開發那同時我們也會就"},{"start":5494.678,"end":5510.589,"text":"中科院的科研案然後最後來進行委制譬如說像強攻這種高空攔截的然後中科院的瑞恩二型這些等等那我們也可能為了要快速取得可能我們還是要像一些垂直傾向型的這個無人機這是非常重要的那我們"},{"start":5511.653,"end":5532.1,"text":"快速的取得,因為軍購的程序,畢竟它有它的一個時程,所以我們快速取得這樣的垂直氣象型的無人機。然後就這些幾型的攻擊無人機,從一次型的攻擊無人機到FPV等等,那我們希望建立一個長彈。"},{"start":5533.761,"end":5550.903,"text":"將來福祉國防產業,這樣整個一個無人機的規劃我剛也提到像我了解日本也已經開始要建構一個整個恢復他們國防自治產業的一個無人機的一個相當大的一個計畫那我剛也提到澳洲也提出來,那韓國也提出來,大家都"},{"start":5552.304,"end":5568.013,"text":"著重在一個字就是要建構排除紅色供應鏈情況之下的一個國防自主能夠產製無人機能量的一個建立謝謝部長剛剛花了算是蠻長的一段時間我認為是很清楚的跟國人說明這件事"},{"start":5568.653,"end":5597.172,"text":"第一個就是假設我們今天無人機剛剛反制是一塊這個待會還會再問一個小問題第二個就是你這一個不管你是要偵測還是你要偵打一體就是你必須要有這樣的一個偵測的手段然後接下來你可能還需要系統的整合然後你也需要這些武器但是呢現在整個從上個禮拜應該說上上禮拜一直到現在永遠都會遇到一句話就是說那你為什麼不放在公務預算為什麼要放在特別預算"},{"start":5597.612,"end":5622.132,"text":"那剛剛部長已經回答到一個非常重要的重點第一個他當然是多年啟程的第二個他包含非常重要的國防自主他能夠讓台灣也增加很多的工作機會而這個國防自主是多年度的才有辦法去達成假設你今天是單年度的其實對很多的產業的扶植他是沒有這個意義的他就是要一個多年度的才有辦法去達到我們今天設定國防自主的目的"},{"start":5622.592,"end":5638.433,"text":"那這件事情我覺得是至關重要是因為其實說真的無論是公務預算還是特別預算我覺得國人有時候會誤解就是說你是不是放在特別預算你只要一個金額放在特別預算之後結果這個預算就不會被監督了但根本就不是嘛"},{"start":5638.914,"end":5658.645,"text":"今天不管是公務預算還是特別預算它審預算的程序也還是一樣它還是要送到我們的委員會來審查它還是有可能被刪除還是會被凍結它其實沒有那麼大的一個差異只在於說我們公務預算會有一些額度上的限制之前有提到我們今年剩84億的Quota"},{"start":5659.665,"end":5683.719,"text":"但我們現在需要的是一年大概1500億的規模所以我們需要這樣的一個特別預算更不要講說我們現在連預算都還沒有進去我們是在特別條例的審查我們只是要先告訴大家我們需要哪些項目就像這張投影片上面的我們就是需要這些大項目然後接下來應該如何做那是預算審查的事情所以這些事情一再的被混淆"},{"start":5684.079,"end":5712.61,"text":"那我們也希望藉由這樣的一個方式讓國人可以理解那不過最後我想問就是剛剛有講到就是因為最近美國FAA才剛剛同意就是把這種低成本的反制無人機的雷射武器這個用於防空那剛剛有講到這個像我們的國防創新就是DIU啊跟這個外交的管道因為它本來就會有很多的技術的合作那因為美方呢以之前有一陣子它也是卡在法規因為畢竟就是這個法規並不是在國防部註冊嘛"},{"start":5713.65,"end":5738.565,"text":"所以他們也有卡在法規的狀況之下我們這邊應該也要加速這一個方面就是剛剛講的不管已經有雷射、微波等等之類的這些主管機關都在別的地方那我們有沒有辦法就是在找廠商的同時同時間在法律上應該要怎麼去鬆綁應該要怎麼去配合這兩件事同步進行這樣的話對於我們之後要建置這種更多的防空"},{"start":5739.065,"end":5756.906,"text":"還有建設更多無人機的反制應該會更為順利這邊就是只是因為這個部長畢竟有法律專業這個部分我講就不用多說我這邊回應一下就是說我們DIU跟DIU已經有建立直接聯繫的管道是第一點那第二點我們在這個"},{"start":5758.574,"end":5785.38,"text":"DIO的主要任務就是巡訪所有的優質的商員我想DIO每個月要跟我報告的這些相關的優質商員的項目是非常多那我們剛剛也提到了這些都是要經過再經過一個總長從他們的作戰的需求然後還有跟軍政部門做討論之後那我們再納入納入以後我們也不是馬上就能夠建案那我們先用少量的採購來建立"},{"start":5787.761,"end":5806.689,"text":"我們為了雕也許我們怕傷勤收集不足,我們還請公園院就不管是國內國外的這個人量都盡量的去收集所以我們建立的是這個我想傷勤的收集館是相當的廣,相當的廣之後再透過這些"},{"start":5809.13,"end":5825.52,"text":"就是說它如果還沒有,它少量的採購跟這個原型的開發等等,特別是少量的採購來驗證,符合我們的這個作戰的一個需求的時候,我們再來進行檢案。我想這個方式是我們來"},{"start":5829.862,"end":5840.493,"text":"整個做快速的一個綜合評估來符合我們整體算能力提升的一個蠻好的一個途徑這個部分還請各位委員能夠支持這樣沒問題,那謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5868.031,"end":5876.879,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長請顧部長那另外中科院我們站規師麻煩都一併上來中科院還有站規師黃市長"},{"start":5880.049,"end":5902.476,"text":"好 部長辛苦 早上我聽了其實最近大家就我們國家在無人載具跟反制無人載具的發展其實討論很多那我覺得每個人都專家但每個人大概因為這是新的東西更新換代非常快所以有時候昨天的觀念妨礙了我們明天的進步所以我今天有兩個問題是常聽到的要就教於三位"},{"start":5903.516,"end":5912.003,"text":"第一個有關我們不管是無人載具水面上的水面下的空中的陸地上的四條腿的或跑輪者不管"},{"start":5913.322,"end":5940.516,"text":"他要怎麼納入職管這其實是蠻重要的因為尤其在軍事用途上如果他不能納入職管他在哪裡我不知道他去哪裡我難以預測的話友軍不敢進來我們自己在運作上有問題所以我第一個要請教就是在軍方的部分是不是所有這些無人機還有這個防制無人機的裝備都會納入我們的職管系統還是會獨立一個職管系統中科院先來好了"},{"start":5942.745,"end":5966.543,"text":"這個是一定要納入我的整合執管系統的不能讓他out of loop 這個答案我聽過所以我真的要問的是下一題現在去年通過的防衛任性的預算現在非軍方的CI 中油啊 海巡啊還有這個警政署啊 高鐵啊 甚至台積電他們也要建置一堆防制無人機的系統"},{"start":5967.557,"end":5995.312,"text":"那他們建立的防制無人機系統可能會走區域聯防他們有他們的指揮所嗎?或者他們有他們C2的中心嗎?這整個是由中科院來負責整合硬體裝備部由中科院供應你們負責整合你要讓不同的系統不同的廠牌不同的來源要能夠跟你們對話嘛對不只要能區域聯防那另外按照內政部警政署的要求我們還會建立兩個大區域的指管中心兩個夠嗎?"},{"start":5997.393,"end":6025.784,"text":"目前的預算只夠做這麼多因為你要區域聯防兩個的話光一個中山山脈隔成兩邊你怎麼弄還有海島啊然後我請教就是因為那個預算過了我看他們現在正在寫相關的案子我好奇的比如說軍民共用的機場台南機場啊CCK啊就軍民共用或像松山機場它的防制無人機的系統是軍方來建立還是民航局來建立"},{"start":6027.256,"end":6052.964,"text":"目前以松山機場的案例是由民防局來建立民防局來建立是那民防局來建立他納入他們自己那個所謂你建立了兩個中心嘛啊那一個東西就是CI的防制無人機的系統這個他的C2或者我們講指揮所有跟我們軍方串在一起嗎這個通報系統是隨時都是保持上的有時候順序我假設一個狀況啊我如果說說請你糾正我"},{"start":6054.108,"end":6082.435,"text":"現在民航建立了或者民間建立一個防制無人機的體系然後我們軍方的無人機在旁邊操作的時候會不會被他打下來這個我們都會有相互的通報在軍機場裡面或是軍民共用的這個機場裡面比如第一秒鐘我在旁邊我們現在軍機場台南機場隔一條街外面都民宅啊我飛起來了包委員這個都是在都是在管制區內管制區內所有的這個無人機的活動都要相互通報你們現在是由民航局來建制嘛"},{"start":6083.095,"end":6110.914,"text":"所以他掃到了看見了民航局裡面他有一個委員會我的了解是這樣子這個委員會有關於我們現在無人機訓練的空域我們無人機要進行的那個他有一個高度的一個要求一個分配然後某個高度上面那就要進行派駐通報然後還有聯絡官進駐那一定的空域下沒有影響飛安像他防制無人機有干擾的問題我們的指揮通信導航"},{"start":6114.396,"end":6140.967,"text":"這個規範是由軍方來規範還是民航來規範這個是由我們軍方來規範我舉一個例子以桃園中正機場為例中正機場的無人機防制系統是由中正員協助建立的那現在每一天都有在執行任務而且評價還蠻好的但是他旁邊就是陸航六棟妖女的訓練空域所以透過兩邊中間的整合所以六棟妖女的無人機起來或是他的陸航的直升機起來絕對不會去讓"},{"start":6142.688,"end":6172.108,"text":"我這題是大家的疑慮那我建議就是說這一個指揮鏈啊或者通訊傳輸的鏈有這個可以的話讓我們委員會了解一下如果有人疑慮可以提就是說怎麼樣整合是一件事情第二個疑慮常常提到的就是我們在委員會也提到無人機是一個新的從2020年亞美尼亞跟亞塞拜蘭戰爭開始大量運用那更新換代非常快所以我現在這題就一個題目就是"},{"start":6172.768,"end":6188.076,"text":"怎麼樣避免我採購以後或大量採購以後沒有多久就變昨日黃花我到底是在合約裡面怎麼寫或者是每一次少量多餐避免更新換代整個淘汰掉目前國防部的想法是什麼"},{"start":6190.295,"end":6215.768,"text":"跟我們報告,現在進入AI時代以後,所有的像無人載具,尤其是無人載具系統因為它自主化程度很高,所以它都是由軟體來定義硬體就以二屋戰場為例,你如果一個月你的軟體沒有更新沒有進步的話,你這無人機就落伍了所以重點在於軟體的不斷更新,而不是硬體的迭代所以現在採購的都必須能夠隨時可以接受upgrade"},{"start":6216.448,"end":6245.243,"text":"是而且這個但是我要提醒院長跟部長軟硬體互為所用而且戰場環境不同在某個戰場比如說在烏克蘭戰場沒用的或者有用的未必適應台海戰場風不一樣啊氣溫不一樣啊地形地貌不一樣用的人跟你對抗的對象毛與頓不一樣所以俄烏戰場是一個很好的參考但不是唯一的指標在那邊失效的未必在我們這邊會無效在那邊能飛的"},{"start":6246.283,"end":6267.981,"text":"能在水上能夠在黑海跑的未必在台灣海峽跑得出去所以環境因素對於更新換代的軟體跟硬體這兩個要一併思考我這再提醒否則我們花那麼多錢買了一大堆裝備萬一過了三個季度之後它就失效了那個是很大的影響跟傷害我再解釋一下30秒剛剛那個"},{"start":6270.032,"end":6295.628,"text":"陳永康委員有講到我們的軟體都是要回來以後經過我們自己再按照我的任務和我的接站規則去增六它不斷的增六它才能夠更follow我們需要的任務特性第二個硬體的部分現在都是模組化設計當我在軟體更新的時候我硬體如果匹配不上的話我就必須把這個模組抽換掉直接換新的模組上去這是軟硬體相結合的部分更新換代"},{"start":6296.628,"end":6312.545,"text":"並不是說不斷的去創造新的構型不是 而是從一開始設計你就要把更新換代的理念擺在裡面我相信你們比我還專業啦但這兩個問題其實是國人一律要提出來的那除了部長要其他請回啦我就要提一件事情"},{"start":6314.434,"end":6335.025,"text":"這個土法不足以自行只有裝備沒有優秀的國軍也沒辦法去運作它那最近陸軍六軍團一五三旅經六節發生這一個溫信上位的事情它事情大概只有兩個樣態我今天要問一個我這邊接到的情形它在第一個樣態是公然侮辱"},{"start":6336.465,"end":6361.97,"text":"霸凌那個台日混血的行兵坦白講罵到人家媽媽那個是不應該的不管什麼族群背景那陸軍六軍團處理得很明快我看你們知道之後馬上把他調離主管職然後以公然侮辱移送法辦這個部分處理算明快至於他跟那個士兵是單一個案或者他們彼此能不能和解那是另外一件事情其實另外本席關注到另外一件事情"},{"start":6362.967,"end":6388.799,"text":"他們那個單位在1月份今年初就有人投訴他們在部隊裡面播放中華人民共和國的統戰的電影那個部長跟參謀長知道這個事情嗎?是,我們都有注意到這個那這個事情要怎麼處理?我們現在有關這個他們不能夠再播放這個中置的影片那我問明確一點"},{"start":6391.621,"end":6402.265,"text":"是這個溫馨連長自己想播放的嗎?有沒有人下令叫他去找這個片子來播?您說播放這個影片,那個影片是銀長銀長要求播的嗎?銀長為什麼要求去播一個中國的統戰電影?"},{"start":6409.549,"end":6434.856,"text":"謝偉庸我來做一個補充報告我首先先就中共統戰的一個手法它實際上是透過各項的電視影音包含到社群這種文化滲透或者從旁邊我們都知道就是再怎麼樣你要播台灣版的八百壯士我OK啦你去播中華人民共和國的八百而且在軍中把官士兵集合這不對嘛我的意思說營長為什麼下這個令"},{"start":6436.776,"end":6465.216,"text":"這個是不對因為營長的認知裡面他本身產生一個錯誤的判斷他他自己看了這個影片裡面看到有我們的中華民國千天白日滿地紅的國旗還有播放我們的國歌他就認為這是一個適合給官兵做一個精神救援所以他自己先看過了對他殊不知裡面其實是中共他統戰的一個包裝我跟你講中共最喜歡把你國軍共軍變成中國軍變成一大群馬他就是在黏糊敵我意思和分化"},{"start":6466.556,"end":6492.449,"text":"在播放電影的時候 營長坐在那邊看喔是對不對 是他為什麼那麼認真推這個事情我就講是他自己在自己個人看了這部影片之後他的一個錯誤判斷常某長你剛才講的我認同是中共的影片有時候你第一時間看有中華民國國旗好像不錯他其實在混淆那一個他的敵我界線讓你喪失保護自己國家鬆懈我們的心防"},{"start":6493.73,"end":6522.06,"text":"那現場陣戰人員在啊報告這個這個營長播在這個案情之後他播的時候陣戰官在啊是後面我們了解了我們已經有那陣戰官有沒有起來站起來說制止有後面有反映到呂陣戰主任呂陣戰主任知道之後當場有一個陣戰人員站起來說這不適合有沒有這個事情這一段戲不過如果有這個陣戰人員應該加冕一下是可是荒謬是他站起來說不適合的時候"},{"start":6523.514,"end":6542.81,"text":"裡面的兵口音很特別的兵還站起來駁斥這個陣戰人員我第一次看到部隊兵可以駁斥軍官的耶我沒有聽我沒有掌握到這樣的情況但是後面這一梯式的兵那一梯式就是上應該年初跟這一次這個台日混血不同梯式的那一梯式的兵裡面"},{"start":6543.911,"end":6560.01,"text":"有好幾位都是非常高階學府的人所以陸續寫了信出來我現在要提的這件事情就是說這一個溫馨旅長個人去公然侮辱該怎麼辦就怎麼辦你們也辦了不錯那軍方該看的是"},{"start":6560.51,"end":6589.366,"text":"是他一個人的個案還是他有對其他T4的兵做一樣的事或者有其他的班長配合他進行這樣的霸凌第二個是只有這個連這樣子有沒有其他單位犯了類似的錯不能再犯或者要普遍了解這是一件事情那個事情就讓你們去處理我們現在看到的是營長下令那個溫馨連長那一個禮拜是執行 背執行帶連長只好去找這個中國的影片統戰影片拿到軍中來播"},{"start":6590.086,"end":6614.642,"text":"而且 你有沒有想過 這還有版權的問題在部隊播盜版的影片無法無天 目無法跡就算要播國內的影片 你也要有版權啊就 版權也有問題裡面有中國對台灣心理戰的成分在裡面然後營長下令 現場監看 營長在場然後當場有政戰人員制止 還被兵駁刺"},{"start":6616.874,"end":6626.62,"text":"後面這一段你們去查證一下如果這樣情形的話我腦袋就一個問號而已這個銀是個案嗎是認知意識形態的問題"},{"start":6628.371,"end":6652.888,"text":"還是想幹嘛?就你們現在陸軍掌握的情形報告委員 我沒有認為這是一個個案那這純粹我剛才也跟委員報告過是營長他個人對這個這部影片裡面他的一個價值判斷的錯誤那事實上征戰局他對於各項的政教的這個教材都第一個都有明定的軍安總隊有沒有進行相關的調查背後金流啦 相關的人事物"},{"start":6655.31,"end":6673.439,"text":"您說 這個營長有問題的都該了解吧 那個石局長是 委員好跟您報告 只要是有異常的狀況我們保防安全處跟軍安總隊都會做相關的調查了解年初這件事情其實當時就已經有公開投訴了是為什麼那時候都沒處理"},{"start":6675.501,"end":6694.563,"text":"第一時間我們都會掌握跟處理那跟您報告一下這個有關於他的這個營長所播放的這個影片正常來講這些輔助教材都要經過旅籍的政戰主任在每個就舉光是前一天的政教研討會都要經過審查旅籍的政戰主任知道嗎"},{"start":6695.203,"end":6721.012,"text":"所以他沒有經過審查這個然後你知道在同二時期你回去Google我建議軍安或者政戰局去了解一下同二時期在某些縣市在某些縣市後備叫召的時候在遊覽車上面就在播這個影片我不是說它一定是一個集體行為但是你們要有敏感度夠啊怎麼會那麼剛好後備叫召遊覽車上面司機播這個影片"},{"start":6722.034,"end":6747.671,"text":"金六結這個營區的營長下令播這個影片同一個影片喔 你們有沒有掌握保委員 這個我們會再詳細做調查那您剛剛講遊覽車這件事情喔因為有一段時間這個事情我們也有掌握也都有經過調查跟處理那這個背後是一個組織性的行為一個認知作戰的作為還是那麼剛剛好大促銷大家這個時候都在播這個電影"},{"start":6748.744,"end":6763.102,"text":"我想我有關於這個對於中共統戰的一些手段啦我們會強化這方面的教育那麼相關的有違常的情況我們也都會充分的了解跟立即的處理年初知道這個情形之後你們做了什麼處理"},{"start":6764.451,"end":6792.2,"text":"如果年初有處理 現在後面還會發生這個連長還有這個連長霸凌這個台日混血的士兵的事嗎 沒有嗎是你們當時沒處理吧是 如果我們做得不夠我們會再檢討年初做了什麼處理 這是一個問號委員是指影片年初揭露了他們在軍中播放中共統戰影片你們當時做了什麼處理包含了這相關議場的這些人員我們都經過調查跟了解然後每個都還在原位啊"},{"start":6794.913,"end":6811.12,"text":"這叫處理喔表示他做的沒錯嘛不是 而是說他的對於這樣子不是 我的問題很簡單當年初爆發這件事情其實我坦白講霸凌是當然也嚴重那是個案在部隊這樣子去播這樣的影片又由營長層級下令"},{"start":6813.444,"end":6839.899,"text":"我認為這個事情比較嚴重但我的問題很簡單你們當時知道做了什麼處理有沒有處理沒有就沒有嘛被處分了這個營長也被處分但是因為他對於這個內容被他是沒有經過審查的也就是說他對這個內容的認知有誤你們當時處分這個營長是營長有處分做什麼處分營長申請兩次那因為報告報名我們的了解純粹是"},{"start":6841.826,"end":6868.704,"text":"就營長而言他純粹是個人在這個影片裡面他自己的認知錯誤我們可以這樣想啦調查單位不能這樣想啦是那所以我們針對他的不當的第一個沒有經過政教研討會播放這個政戰的輔教影片拿了一個你沒有版權偷偷下載下來拿到部隊來播我先不講影片內容光這個行為就毫無法律概念了人家告你賠錢怎麼辦第二個"},{"start":6869.745,"end":6882.177,"text":"那個內容很明顯就是中華人民共和國而且還支援解放軍去演的一齣電影沒有版權智慧財產權的概念沒有心理防線的概念"},{"start":6885.187,"end":6902.672,"text":"我坦白講如果這是單一個案那當然這個人就有問題嘛報告委員也容我補充一下雖然不管是這個溫連長的事件或是這個營長播放這影片目前在我們陸軍做了深入的掌握我們認為是單一事件他用什麼機器播的你如果掌握的話"},{"start":6903.252,"end":6917.7,"text":"有 它是用手機連線它手機 我們部隊如果裝了你們那個管制系統叫什麼MDM你們裝了MDM 它可以播中國的電影沒有 那是YouTube在手機裡面連接到YouTube抓的連YouTube上就直接播了然後直接連線抓的"},{"start":6918.26,"end":6943.888,"text":"那我要跟委員報告就是說雖然我們的做了深入的了解認為這兩個都是單一事業但是我們仍舊對中共無所不用其極的用各種的包裝來實施統戰包含到吸收我們的低階的官士兵以及我們幹部的一個重要敵我意識和為何而戰為何而戰的認知這事實上在國防部裡面和軍總現在都是列我們很重要的一個精神教育的一個事項我把這個幹案讓你了解讓部長知道其實"},{"start":6945.55,"end":6957.841,"text":"敵人的毛我們都知道我們的盾有沒有破洞這是我們自己要檢討然後理論我們都知道實際的作為要有一些時機做出來好不好時間關係這個案子後續我們再來追蹤謝謝部長"},{"start":6962.419,"end":6987.435,"text":"我會要求全軍我們會來加強整個在各個層面上面包括講的就是說旅籍的這個政戰主管要來做好這件事情然後包括相關的這些精神教育我們要做好包括我們宣導相關的法制還有管教師檔還有這些指揮統一等等的我們都會來全面的來檢視部長這個你有宣示過我知道我倒期待軍安總統隊現在擴編了"},{"start":6989.016,"end":7015.603,"text":"找個時間軍安總隊可以來這邊專報一下特別現在針對以前都針對特定位置特定關節現在是從基層用債務陷阱去框住那軍安總隊擴編之後針對我們關鍵的國防產業啦我們的基層啦可能要有一些實質的作為跟績效好不好謝謝部長好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢"},{"start":7025.63,"end":7028.191,"text":"主席好 有請部長請部長部長早我們上禮拜省的條例做了一些協商今天下午還要繼續我想部長應該有掌握了一個訊息我這一天有很多人在問就是美國陸軍的"},{"start":7059.267,"end":7063.969,"text":"附近的最高指導他們說他們好像對這個B09A7這個自走砲他有一些comment他覺得說他過於"},{"start":7073.407,"end":7089.294,"text":"好像速度比較慢他好像必須要經過這幾個程序大概要15分鐘所以他好像那天他在這個國會的聽證說他們會減少這個的採購然後好像是從7點多億一路下滑到大概不到1億元的這個採購的這個金額的規劃"},{"start":7092.435,"end":7111.299,"text":"然後他在會議也提到說他們會研發一些比較速度更快的製造化來替代他因為這個已經是我們LOA的項目了我想國防部應該有掌握這個部分我們跟美國的部署可能概念不是很一樣是不是請國防部趁這個機會跟大家做一個說明好不好"},{"start":7115.592,"end":7130.593,"text":"黃委員是的我們在媒體也看到這樣的一個報導但我要跟委員報告首先我不知道他這個報導上面講的A7的放列速度大約要15分鐘因為這個跟實際上它的放列速度是有很大的差異所以這個是有問題"},{"start":7132.816,"end":7154.307,"text":"我不知道這個報導他這個數據是怎麼來的因為跟真實的數據不是這樣子那第二個事實上美軍他是講說他未來不會再去擴大這個109A7的採購但是他們現行部署的109A7仍然會持續使用那他會去尋找新的更快速符合未來戰場上需要的一個標的但是"},{"start":7155.288,"end":7178.568,"text":"經過我們實際上針對這個報導我們也做了一個專案的研析也就是說他所謂未來尋找這個標的到底是三年後還是五年後那甚至於即便這個標的是不是符合我們防衛作戰需求還有如果這個標的是符合我們的我們真的去納入所謂的連戰跟武兵事實上我們在未來採購的牌序也未必會在未來的"},{"start":7179.269,"end":7192.378,"text":"所謂的可能7到8年內快速獲得那事實上我們現行使用的這些不管是牽引炮 自走炮都服役超過40年以上是不符現在的防範專需要所以以目前來說我們在特別預算條例裡面採購的60門事實上以現在在這樣子的一個"},{"start":7197.641,"end":7221.658,"text":"它可以這個所謂單炮放裂和單炮射擊的一個還有它的射擊的速度還有交互的變換是符合我們防禦專案的需求以上報告因為我們也去查了一些資料現在好像對這種自走炮我們很多策略可能是Shot and school就是打了要跑那這個是不是未來在建軍的部分是不是有考慮到這個事情就是是不是要更激動更靈活"},{"start":7224.08,"end":7248.523,"text":"事實上它本身的單炮的放裂和它的運用委員剛才所說的到底打了就跑事實上這是我們在戰炮炮與炮之間和戰炮牌與戰炮牌之間來自於聯乙之間作戰運用的問題有一個可能某一個射擊單位在射擊一個射擊單位已經進入到陣地他一射擊完就立刻脫離所以事實上本來就是打了就跑"},{"start":7248.763,"end":7263.081,"text":"所以國防部現在對於M109H對我們現在建制還是有需要對強化我們的其實我們現在剛剛陳副長有先透露一些但事實上我們對於除了我們要購置自手炮本來就是要採這個"},{"start":7264.466,"end":7290.119,"text":"激動的一個方式之外我們既有的這些還沒有辦法拿到其他裝備來替代之前我們也要實施更激動的一個部署因為在現在的這個情況之下如果沒有進行激動跟快速轉移的一個過程這個是很容易受到見面的所以我們相關的這些都在進行相關的研討"},{"start":7291.44,"end":7307.217,"text":"M1-9A7裡面在所有的砲兵作戰方面我們在作戰應用上面還是有他的需求好 那下一題就是其實上禮拜那個監察院他們出了他們的報告就跟這個機動型防制系統有關這個應該是去年演習的時候發生的狀況那這個監察院他們也"},{"start":7313.363,"end":7327.255,"text":"提了一些他們的建議啦他們覺得我們的這個評測啦 後勤啦都有一些需要檢討之處啦那是不是請這個國防部這邊是不是針對這件事情啦來做一下說明因為我們這次的特別條例裡面也有買這些東西 是"},{"start":7331.068,"end":7350.697,"text":"委員好,我是座議事次長。各位委員報告好,我們在無人機的反制系統,就現在戰爭上看起來,其實國軍當然有迫切的需要。而且我們早在前幾年,先從無人機的建案,就是無人機防禦系統,UDS系統,早在前幾年已經開始建案,這兩年目前正在陸續獲得。"},{"start":7352.137,"end":7372.524,"text":"我意思是說上次好像就這個驗收上或者那個演習上有一些狀況沒有沒有那個是另外的UDS是中科院的是中科院我跟委員說明的是說我們整體性全面的建置那所以我們區分四個面向第一個是我們已經建置當中的就是UDS系統加上干擾槍"},{"start":7373.604,"end":7388.566,"text":"第二個部分是我們這次納在特別條例裡面當中所律定主被動的防禦系統防範干擾的 防範軟硬煞的等等系統所以其實我們迫切需要預算上的支持來讓我們能夠建立反制無人機的能量"},{"start":7389.227,"end":7409.114,"text":"那第三個部分則是納入年度建案當中的包含小批量的採購包含人稀釋可稀釋的無人機反制系統還有干擾的設備那當然後面剛剛前面報告過的僅由DIO國防抗軍小組來去採小批量獲得因此全面性的建制國防部都有規劃那但是考量"},{"start":7411.175,"end":7438.926,"text":"這個無人機反制它會區分有關它裡面機密的參數因此其實我們要能夠獲得各國的資源這必須經過相當程度的協調跟溝通這也是國防部正持續在努力當中那基於要獲得這些系統跟裝備不管是從特別預算當中或者從國防我們年度的預算當中都急需請委員支持讓我們能夠建立無人機從中大型到小型無人機的反制能量"},{"start":7439.847,"end":7454.83,"text":"所以這次我們採購就可以回答監察院對國防部提出的一些建議我們應該是說我們除了我們要建置的可吸式無人接環制系統"},{"start":7456.351,"end":7484.237,"text":"這個軟硬砂的無人機反制系統之外我們另外還要再規劃有關地面部隊無人機的反制系統然後我們另外也會應用小批量採購來做一些反無人機的一些自動化槍塔跟一些清兵器的火控系統那另外我們也會透過中科研的科研的能量來建立有一些高能雷射的武器系統那除了這個之外呢當然我們也很希望透過相關的管道"},{"start":7484.917,"end":7510.161,"text":"包括DIO等等我們來獲得新興的一些環制無人機的現在因為正在很多都在發展當中因為時間的關係我們最近幾天也在對無人機做一些 survey現在看起來因為時間很少對於尖針型跟攻擊型光幕現在認為配置的大概是不是很簡單可以跟大家說一下"},{"start":7511.841,"end":7521.779,"text":"有關這個無人機艱爭跟攻擊我們區分戰略作戰以及戰術三個層次那會依照納入我們聯合勤奸爭以及部隊在戰時"},{"start":7523.36,"end":7542.307,"text":"從他的作戰責任遞進需求去做整體的配置那有關攻擊型的也是按照這個方式所以我們裡面看到有中程近程的自殺式無人機裡面有投彈式那當然還有FPV依照整個防衛作戰的進程跟整個防衛作戰的概念來去做兵力整合的配置從監偵到打擊"},{"start":7543.107,"end":7568.577,"text":"希望能夠加快我們的擊殺鏈能夠再讓第一線部隊能夠獲得極增極功能的能量好 因為時間關係它除了這個投彈式的跟FPP沉浸式的以外那當然我們還看到有中型的跟那個更小型的攻擊無人機它依照它接戰的這個距離有不同這樣是是 因為時間關係也許我會後再跟大家做請教好 謝謝"},{"start":7574.101,"end":7577.444,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請劉許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":7593.087,"end":7612.532,"text":"是 林委員好部長辛苦了這今天題目是創新小組然後應用新興科技那這個113年2月1號我們成立了DIO國防創新小組然後中間也一路跟比如說美國的國防創新單位他們叫DIU還有印太司令部等等持續來做交流合作"},{"start":7613.012,"end":7623.296,"text":"那我看一下你們報告上的內容大家都是希望嘛也許是要借財一下美國人的經驗跟軍民合作的部分來提升效率我這樣的解釋應該沒有背離大的方向吧 部長"},{"start":7626.516,"end":7654.296,"text":"就是說我們會去探尋所有有關可以作為我們合乎我們防衛作戰需求的各種手段新興的這些科技的項目那後來就推動了這個114年2月24號首次在我們政府的電子採購網開始辦理這個公告也就是徵集民間企業去提供這個不同的方案比如說衛星影像的自動辨識智慧實境作戰系統倉儲管理系統等等"},{"start":7654.616,"end":7683.957,"text":"就當然就是升級相關的軍備但是借重民間的力量開始升級的這樣的一個企劃書希望可以擴大運用民間的科技方案加速國防的創新跟應用好那我今天就就這幾個項目跟這樣子的一個題目做一下制度的比較這個部長這個美國的DIU就是說他們成立的這個目的是因為考量他們的政府跟他們的商用公司之間就是你政府機制總是比較慢課程比較多收到很多的監管跟監督等等民間有的時候科技發展是比較快的所以可以"},{"start":7684.757,"end":7710.494,"text":"這個合理的借重的話它可以提升相關的一個效率所以DIU它會徵求一些民間的好的idea那這好的idea之後我政府有一套完整的規制比如說我丟出我的需求公開徵求你的意見廠商可以來做報價然後我政府有很明確的權利義務規範我30天之內我要做這個審查嘛做專業的審查審查完畢之後有合格廠商然後我就可以進入原型合約的洽簽階段"},{"start":7711.494,"end":7726.456,"text":"然後也有很明確的交貨期程比如說我要做出一套新的東西借用民間的力量我可能要在兩年之內交付原型機然後我才會在審核之後再投入量產這是DIU要借重美國民間經驗然後去強化這個相關的他一套完整的作業流程"},{"start":7726.796,"end":7755.602,"text":"好那我們現在有DIO看起來概念上也許是要借財這樣子的一個模式那以剛剛我提的這三個案子他是按照美國這樣有一套完整的特殊的採購政策來做指引還是說我們只是按照一般的政府採購法做服務性採購然後先了解一下企劃內容再做定奪我們大概在從115年開始就是小量子採購大概有十案原型採購有三案那這些案子大概都是經過大家討論的會"},{"start":7756.963,"end":7777.268,"text":"有符合這個作戰構想跟作戰需求,然後經過這個評估之後來提出,然後最後到我這邊來提報之後我們再核准那我們116年,案項會更多,大概少量採購會有16案,然後這個原型開發會有4個案子這樣子"},{"start":7778.194,"end":7792.993,"text":"我今天問的是制度上的差異啦制度上來講我覺得我就問啦剛剛部長講了很多案前面做的跟未來要做的他其實本質上他還是就是照本來的政府採購的機制去走還是他有因為國防的特殊性 居民合作的特殊性我在制度上面有做特殊的設計"},{"start":7795.029,"end":7817.091,"text":"就是說我們用少量的採購來做一個驗測,這個驗測認為負責我們需求,這個跟過去我們直接進行建案有不同你直接建案規模就大,所以你現在等於是切兩段的意思我先做一個小批量的採購,看看成效之後我再來考慮做這個事"},{"start":7817.791,"end":7841.286,"text":"我再來考慮這個要不要引入所以這是我們國內的制度運作的模式嘛對不對目前對對對那因為我們還是要基於預算的考量比如說115年我們還是要等總預算通過其他人執行啦所以你的原則就借財了人家的經驗之後你只是說我做了兩段的處理嘛我就先做小額的門檻低一點然後來做合理的涉算但是我本質上我並沒有脫離本來的政府採購的"},{"start":7841.986,"end":7864.467,"text":"相關的一些程序跟政策指導但部長我剛剛去提美國就是人家是有比較特殊的一套的政策設計在裡面也就是說我在做小額採購的同時我就已經預留了未來直接合作的空間嘛這樣對於民間有能力的有創新的廠商來講他的誘因更大一點嘛因為我如果通過他前面這個小量的這個階段的時候我對於後面直接簽約等等他是有明確的指引嘛"},{"start":7864.947,"end":7881.779,"text":"幾年之內我可以順利交貨我就可以取得比較大的訂單這樣子的話這些民間的廠商等等他才會有比較大的誘因去處理這件事那我們的政府現在有沒有打算要徹底的針對這樣子的特殊的需求去做制度上的專門的設計這是我今天要提這個質詢最重要的原因我聽聽國防部的意見"},{"start":7882.421,"end":7908.847,"text":"那也要先說嗎?可以可以,沒問題的是,跟委員報告在這個原型開發的部分我們是仿照以及參考美國DIU的這個採購做法就像您剛才講的,他們做open solicitation的時候走的這個程序,我們是參考他們的方式所以我們的原開也會經過兩階段的這個公開首先就是請廠商提供他的proposal給我們他們認為可以的解決方案"},{"start":7911.307,"end":7926.6,"text":"然後第二階段經過一段的評審委員的徵選之後我們會篩選出部分的合格的廠商然後請他們再給我們細部的資料然後兩階段的做法是參考DIU的做法"},{"start":7927.341,"end":7940.984,"text":"那當然就是兩階段之後進行原型開發那原型開發原型成熟之後我們會經過驗證那這樣子的驗證過程如果確定他是符合我們需要後續的量產我們也會就是優先會考量"},{"start":7941.889,"end":7961.505,"text":"以上報告所以以你現在這個三個案子比如說衛星影像AI自動辨識擴增實境智慧作戰系統智慧化倉儲管理系統你現在只是徵求企劃書所以他只要提供Proposal你這一段的招標權利義務就結束了嗎還是說他是這個企劃書小量生產 驗證程序甚至是Guarantee未來可能會有簽約是哪一種會"},{"start":7963.763,"end":7982.212,"text":"應該會透過這個最尾標的評選之後然後會選入一家然後來進行做這樣的原型開發對啊這是他得標嘛但我的意思是說他得標之後你的權利義務關係是什麼嘛他只要把計畫書提給你沒有沒有沒有他要進行開發然後進行開發嘛然後要進行驗證要進行驗證對時間有沒有明確比如說我我之前因為你剛剛講都是參照DIU嘛DIU就是講徵求報價完合格之後"},{"start":7989.515,"end":8013.437,"text":"90天以內原型合約要下簽完畢12到24個月之內第一波的這個成績就要做出來然後我才考慮要不要簽大單我們在裡面的這樣一套設計裡面有沒有明定相關的期程有期程的規範那原則上當這個廠商獲得我們的標案之後原則上我們會希望9個月到12個月之內能夠完成他的原型開發所以他有9個月到12個月的原型開發嘛"},{"start":8014.418,"end":8032.889,"text":"那開發完之後呢?他比如說他有後面有優先這個預約權嗎?或者是怎麼樣的制度設計嗎?我現在之所以要提這個我並沒有在針對哪一個個案去談這個事情而是純粹從制度設計上面的考量我的意思說美國如果用DIU這樣子一個邏輯去設計一定是你通過前面的考驗我在你後面的時候我有優先選擇權"},{"start":8033.749,"end":8056.02,"text":"你的前面的驗證某些層面你也是給社會大眾交代我經過了一定的檢證我對他有信心後面去在效率跟防弊之間他取得一個很好的平衡我們今天如果要學這一套的制度我是建議就給他徹底我前面做完符合哪一些嚴格的標準之後在一定的時間他做到了後面你就可以很大聲的跟社會大眾講這個廠商是我可以信賴的我們要把國防很多地方借用民間的力量然後把這個東西徹底的發展出去"},{"start":8057.621,"end":8073.222,"text":"這樣子有心投入的廠商會非常認真努力的去做前段的工作為了拿到後段的訂單但我現在擔心的是如果我們制度只差一半比如說我前面的事情做完了但我也沒有保障你後面的需求啊我後面又要經過重新的採購得標程序然後又奇奇怪怪的力量就跑進來了"},{"start":8073.883,"end":8095.069,"text":"結果變得很努力做事的人可能會因為制度設計的不完善而造成反淘汰的狀況這樣子當初軍民合作刺激誘因的那個好的那個東西不見了這是本期提這個質詢很重要的一個目標那現在的設計有沒有徹底還是說現在還在做調整有沒有一些改進的方向"},{"start":8096.246,"end":8099.848,"text":"您剛講的這樣的概念是我們原始的一個設計我們確實會希望在原開的時候獲得標案的這家廠商如果他後續在執行我們方案的時候能夠達到我們需求的時候後續的採購我們當然希望以他為優先但是在政府採購法的限制之下實際上量產的標案我們還是要會看當時的情況"},{"start":8119.54,"end":8137.259,"text":"符合限制性招標有些首次獨家等等的這樣的規範政府才夠法規定可以這樣做那我們當然會優先那如果說做出來之後一年發現這樣子的技術其實很多廠商也都能夠做那我們還是會採公開招標的方式這就是本期今天要提的最重要的原因"},{"start":8137.679,"end":8165.887,"text":"部長因為我們現在就本期出錢的認識現在我們怎麼樣走採購程序我們還是要受到政府採購法的規範但政府採購法是工程會經濟部為主的這樣子的一個思考邏輯這樣子的一個思考邏輯他一定要確保公開啊他要確保公平啊確保不能排他免得他一天到晚有圖利對不對就是國家從上到下這麼多的標案對不對可是國防採購它有它的特殊性所以我今天為什麼是從制度面的角度去談這件事就是如果我們的國防政策要走一套特別的狀況"},{"start":8166.727,"end":8190.036,"text":"那他就應該要有特別的政策設計跟制度設計也許是修法新的法令等等你才有辦法徹底的完成這件事情去提振國內的產業在軍用方面的參與度如果我們想很多這個方向也努力的往這個方向去設計但是制度規章還是受限於本來的政府採購法就會出現我剛剛講的狀況我前面花很多時間的努力後面反淘汰等等"},{"start":8190.636,"end":8219.415,"text":"變得政策因此而自在難行所以部長最後的時間希望他會思考一下既然要學也許可以學徹底一點我是國防外交的新人我什麼廠商我都不認識所以我只有這個時候我可以很清楚的去談這個事情制度是不分廠商的但是政策如果明確如果這個東西政府採購法反而對於推動這樣的軍民合作造成了部分的障礙的時候國防部也要勇敢表達自己的立場去要求我們的整個政府單位去設計一套可以推進這樣子政策的一套採購的機制"},{"start":8220.977,"end":8236.658,"text":"這部長有沒有這樣的打算或想法?所以我們會跟我們的採購室然後從採購法的觀點來看那來做出符合這個法規但是又能夠對廠商形成一定誘因的那大致上可能會採取最有利標像這樣的方式"},{"start":8236.758,"end":8259.907,"text":"當然你現行的規定都是這樣但我都鼓勵說國防部可以大膽一點嘛我們有時候大膽講國防部很保守但我意思說如果真的國防迫切需要有未來發展的等等必要的時候專門設計一套合約的特別的採購流程這個本來就是可以思考的啦好不好這請國防部裡面做一下研議可以嗎如果必要的時候我幫忙來談這個事我覺得都是很好的啊對我們會跟工程會來來研究一下對啦好不好好謝謝部長辛苦了"},{"start":8261.752,"end":8278.046,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請黃建斌委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長請顧部長黃委員"},{"start":8287.719,"end":8308.626,"text":"部長4月23號監察院有針對無人機侵擾基地有對外發這個新聞稿他下的標題是國軍營區遭無人機襲擾官兵運用干擾強未能有效反制情勢凸顯國軍無人機反制能力上代強化"},{"start":8309.306,"end":8330.395,"text":"那這個調查其實是114年漢光演習期間那傳出這個國軍某營區遭到無人機的這個擾襲那官兵用干擾槍無法有效的這個應處那經過這個監委調查就發現我們現役的無人機反制的這個裝備性能以及它的部署難以有效的反制現在的無人機"},{"start":8331.175,"end":8349.11,"text":"那對於我們關鍵的這個基礎設施還有營區的據點還有維安工作有重大的安全疑慮那國防部必須積極的檢討改進那另外監察委員也發現在這個國防部在部隊能力建構方面過於偏重於整個營區的安全那相較於這個美軍頒布具體的這個詳細的這個交換還有這個訓練策略"},{"start":8353.354,"end":8379.821,"text":"國防部的相關指引不僅不詳細還難以融入戰訓實務不利於地面部隊在無人機威脅下睡醒防衛作戰任務必須積極的檢討喔那部長從今天這個報告裡面可以突顯出我們國軍在無人機利用最大問題就是我們整個在思考跟訓練跟不上時代因為營區以外的東西好像我們就沒有辦法還要透過相關單位像警政署來來這個處理喔"},{"start":8382.242,"end":8409.298,"text":"那對於監察院的這個報告,我們國防部未來要怎麼樣來改正?請問恰伯,你簡單的來回應一下。我想簡單說一下,第一個就是說,我們現在就是軟殺硬殺的部分的話,我們現在一定要建立一個可吸式的無人機的反制系統,不是我想干擾槍這個部分,這個監察院指摘的這個是對的,因為單純的干擾槍的部分,不足以作為就我們"},{"start":8410.319,"end":8424.241,"text":"防衛這個重要軍事目標的一個任務那重點另外就是說營區以外我們整個部隊在激動的時候部隊的反無人機的建制也是非常重要所以我們會有可惜式的無人機反制系統"},{"start":8425.322,"end":8444.454,"text":"我們規劃拉在特別預算裡面,那另外我們會有地面部隊的無人機反制無人機,就是說將這個層級拉到連級以下這個部分我們也會建置在這個相關的建案裡面那另外有相關的硬砂的部分,包括這個軟硬砂的反制無人機的系統,這個我們有放在特別預算裡面,那另外我們"},{"start":8445.714,"end":8472.145,"text":"也會結合剛剛講的光芒創新小組,我們包括自動化槍塔、天兵器、火控系統等等這些都會涉及到反制無人機的部分也就是它是比較進程的這些反制無人機的一些硬殺的一些手段那就新興的科技的部分,包括雷射、高能微波這個部分我們也會儘速透過研發的手段或者儘速相關多元籌購的手段來取得"},{"start":8472.605,"end":8492.838,"text":"市長如果說這個無人機它是在營區以外?對,我像剛剛講的那個可吸式的無人機跟地面部隊的無人機環境系統,這個都是在營外就是它無人機的環境系統它就是一個背包背包型的,它可以做那個,那可吸式的無人機環境系統可能放在一個在車上"},{"start":8493.958,"end":8521.269,"text":"迎擊指揮所跟著部隊機動的用因為現在小型無人機的運用越來越廣泛那國內的小型無人機的購買越來越多那我想相對未來在我們國防這個方面一定會收到相關你也要有一些準備我們做法應該是要更彈性嘛然後更靈活那是不是相關的改進的這個方式跟完成的期程也請國防部提供因為事實上反制無人機的系統跟委員報告他現在一直不斷的在"},{"start":8522.469,"end":8543.023,"text":"各國都不斷的在創新,包括美國本身也是如此現在都是說你沒有辦法用高成本的飛彈去反制低成本的無人機如果用低成本的方式,不管是硬砂,硬砂也要靠廉價的攔截器軟砂的部分如何運用更好的"},{"start":8544.344,"end":8570.893,"text":"干擾的手段來進行那硬砂除了剛剛講的那種用攔截器部分之外它甚至涉及到跟雷達結合的自動化槍塔的這個部分作為一個最近距離的一個反制這個本身都是重要的機動當然是其中一個重要的元素部長那個是不是相關的改善的這個計畫跟你的方式也跟我提供到本席辦公室那接下來本席想要跟你討論就是無人機的運用的這個部分"},{"start":8571.733,"end":8575.795,"text":"那我們在1.25兆的軍購特別奧利利裡面我們3,350億是要採購21萬架的無人機無人艇那對於無人載具的採購本席是絕對支持但本席比較擔心的是說未來無人機軟硬體的戰場的回饋"},{"start":8589.542,"end":8603.738,"text":"美軍為什麼會強大?就是因為他建構在足夠的戰場經驗上面我們台灣要發展無人機除了要掌握關鍵的零組件之外更重要的是我們要建立快速的戰場回饋機制就是我們武器系統裡面的以戰仰戰"},{"start":8605.84,"end":8628.741,"text":"為什麼要強調要建立無人機的戰場規則就是我們透過以戰養戰的戰略思考來鞏固我們台灣在無人機產業領先的地位像是我們台灣在無人機的晶片、電磁、馬達這方面的技術我們可以藉由協助其他國家來高階無人機的研發來取得戰場的經驗還有它的部署的戰略跟實戰的驗證"},{"start":8631.303,"end":8639.629,"text":"那同時也建立這樣子戰場的回饋機制簡化整個聯合生產的這個程序那藉由這樣的實戰打造無人機的這個聯合"},{"start":8641.467,"end":8664.525,"text":"訓練的這個計畫那我們今天在國防部的報告裡面有看到就是說金瓶谷符合我防衛作戰場景且有且已有戰場時機由軍種直接納入建案採購並針對具在地化發展前提是民間新創技術推介中科院與原廠共同研發或系統整合那對"},{"start":8665.986,"end":8694.966,"text":"這個部分其實這個部分本你像你們這次有發現到說透過科研案來完成系統研製這個已經發現這個問題這個部分本席也可以肯定因為透過實戰你才可以去驗證各家的無人機它的優缺點它的系統的好壞那也透過實戰操作去做改善它整個操作那個無人機的這個操作系統那對於透過更多的實戰經驗強化我無人機的這個研發跟多元運用我們國防部初步的構想是什麼"},{"start":8695.946,"end":8714.695,"text":"那另外跟廠家合作推動的有哪些那如何透過他國實戰強化我國無人機訓練國防部的規劃是什麼那國防部要如何來整合我們數位整個國內外的這無人機的系統還要完善的這個無人機的這個暫時的儲備那以上這幾個問題請簡單的說明跟委員報告第一個剛剛委員所指導的我們買了這麼多的無人機我們"},{"start":8722.378,"end":8746.945,"text":"第一個我上次我們馬昭維已經質詢過了我們就是因為迭代 迭代的問題所以我們21萬餘價我們軍備局負責的就是把它分為兩年我們招標一次那這兩年的執行之中剛剛講的諮詢小組我們都有綠定了而且這個都經過我們參謀本部我們總長親自主持的我們的回饋機制有分三個等級"},{"start":8747.925,"end":8775.737,"text":"個人的操作所還有到它的營集還有到我們的無人機的訓練中心最後到我們軍備局來我們軍備局會成立一個技術的小組比如說它操作軟體有問題了我們就是會跟我們的工研院還有我們甚至耳後我們沙魯米的實驗中心中科院的我們串聯好之後我們會做軟體的更新因為馬昭偉上次也質疑了我們不能當一些老舊的機我們的軟體都是開放性的PX4、IduPilot"},{"start":8776.617,"end":8800.659,"text":"還有那個Beta file都是開放性的隨時可以下載另外我們的硬體我們的通訊模組我們把它抽掉換一個通訊模組下去我們也是很生怕的我們買進來的無人機變成一個庫存機這是我們指導我們部長給我們多次的指導另外我們的無人機的回饋機制在我們整個一個部分裡面我們都非常的完善也跟委員說明以上說明"},{"start":8801.615,"end":8825.171,"text":"好 謝謝局長非常詳細說明那最後一點時間主席要用最後一點時間來跟部長來反映就是說針對我們台東這一次我們在上禮拜有跟朝委到台東來做考察那看到台東空軍這個基地的這個機棚的改善本行這邊還是要要求我們國防部趕快來進行特別是今年F-46V極有可能要進駐台東那"},{"start":8829.165,"end":8855.71,"text":"買新式的武器很重要那保存維護新式武器也同樣的重要這部分請國防部也能夠盡快將相關的工程的這個進度還有執行的狀況報導給本席報告委員這台東基地的這24個機庫以及我們後面在持續建案的抗炸機庫的部分我們都依照委員的指導我們會持續的督導廠商來持續的執行目前攻進的部分是正常好 謝謝三部長謝謝"},{"start":8860.762,"end":8864.166,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王逸川委員上台質詢好 謝謝召委 我們請顧部長請顧部長還有請這個國科會一起請國科會"},{"start":8893.693,"end":8921.431,"text":"不好意思我先請教一下國科會你們現在的這一個科研計畫跟民間合作這種計畫有沒有提完計畫執行一段時間後失敗退出了報告委員我們當然對一些我們推動的計畫我們都會有些定期檢討對一些如果沒有符合我們期待的當然我們會有適當的退場機制有沒有退場的"},{"start":8924.564,"end":8952.555,"text":"是有部分檢討進展那顧部長我們現在的這個設計裡頭啊就是這個國防部這個創新小組這個原型開發這件事情啊有沒有退場機制我們原型開發的部分是屬於這個比較成熟的這個部分就是以技術備變水準比較高的然後需要做一些客製化的部分沒錯 那他就做不出來了"},{"start":8954.143,"end":8981.172,"text":"剛剛不是講說簽完約九到十二個月這個概念嗎?你說這個概念,結果他時間一到,他就做不出來,那怎麼退場?因為他沒有辦法做出來,那就不符合我們的需求那這個原型開發的案子就會被終止掉那前端已經完成了合約呢?前端已經完成了合約,他如果不符合我們的需求,這個案子就...現在的機制是什麼?"},{"start":8982.46,"end":9003.779,"text":"因為你跟他合作 跟民間合作嘛那民間可能一開始合作的時候他可能譬如說在合約上會有付款啊諸如此類的事情那最後呢 做了一年他跟你講說我們做不出來或者做了一年要量產 結果你們檢核之後說這個不行那最後大家要退場的時候 現在的設計是什麼"},{"start":9005.501,"end":9030.53,"text":"我們現在應該是說我們會在期間會有一些管制的節點那如果說這真的他進程都不順利的話,我們就會考慮到在這個之前就會終止那如果說在這個管制的節點上面他都還沒有產生什麼任何問題的話,那就會進行到最後最後還是要進行一個驗證那如果不符我們的這個需求,這個原型開發案就會算是沒有能夠成功"},{"start":9031.055,"end":9058.696,"text":"那這一個相關的規定啊機制啊都已經載明在跟廠商之間的合約裡頭了對對對其實像剛剛問到那個國科會的這個案子裡面像我們現在跟國科會是這樣子我們就會說有一些案子是從TRL1到TRL4那這個部分它能不能再進展到TRL5以上這是不一定的因為每一個研究開放都有它失敗的可能性就連中科院"},{"start":9059.637,"end":9080.316,"text":"中科研的研究開發的這案子它也會有失敗的時候那我們現在跟國科會也好跟我們的相關的合作也就是說如果能夠再進展到TR5以上那我們就要跟這些廠商再繼續合作但是這個時候我們可能會進入一個保密的"},{"start":9081.216,"end":9101.605,"text":"一個協定跟去然後再繼續往下走這樣子 事實上來講是遵循一個但是我們不斷的對很多的這些新興的一些科研案我們透過跟國科會也好經濟部也好那還有我們中科院本身也好那我們都會來進行相關的這些合作"},{"start":9102.185,"end":9130.076,"text":"那原型開發也是我們其中的一個嘗試好 因為既然是科研就不一定會成功啦如果它已經在市面上已經都被商業量產了這個當然就OK但是既然是科研案就不一定會成功所以相關的設計的機制因為我們要鼓勵民間參與嘛那民間 軍民一起合作如果設下了非常多的障礙啊這個民間可能到最後就說啊 教這個工不做生意很難做"},{"start":9132.161,"end":9139.889,"text":"我也知道我會失敗,也不一定會成功,如果一定成功,這部份可能就是民間參與的動力會減少"},{"start":9144.788,"end":9164.068,"text":"這方面跟委員報告民間參與的動力真正的來源就是第一個在研發階段他的投資成本能夠有國家的資金依住所以這個部分包含學校是由國科會為主然後民間是以經濟部為主這兩邊都會有國家的資金去依住他另外在研發過程中間"},{"start":9165.069,"end":9185.48,"text":"我們會針對未來的量產看到他已經到達快要成功的階段的時候同時我們會按照產業發展條例輔導他成為國防部的產發認證廠商未來我就可以跳過政府採購法直接跟他採購我想這個國科會經驗很多啦就是跟學校老師跟廠商這種合作也許金額不多但是這種經驗很多第二個"},{"start":9186.638,"end":9203.221,"text":"就是我們對這些廠商不管你們公開徵求或廠商總是會想說我找一個很好的東西來跟國防部提案看看這樣的一個機制部長這樣的一個機制有沒有可能陷我們這個小組的成員於不義"},{"start":9205.317,"end":9225.038,"text":"現我們的小組成員不易?不易就是說,現在有一個手上說我這個東西很好,一直想找我們小組成員說,我幫你報告一下,這實在是有夠讚的結果我們小組成員就疲於奔命,所以你們是公開徵求的機制,或者是廠商提案的這些機制"},{"start":9226.019,"end":9252.918,"text":"是有一個時間 有一個公告 還是有一個什麼 還是說這個廠商他做得很好他可能就在某一個工業區 某一個科學園區發展一個他覺得很厲害的東西那就想要來報告嘛想要報告對國安部的成員來說這個要來報告 那個要來報告報告的時候 還要送你一包蝶蜜的 送你一包伴手禮的我告訴你 趕快去我是說 這件事情是一個公開的"},{"start":9255.371,"end":9281.353,"text":"期間啊或者是程序還是什麼還是他們隨時都可以有一個過程就可以來體驗這樣子的概念跟委員報告我們的這個商情的蒐集是持續性、例行性就是幾乎每個禮拜都在進行所以廠商如果他有認為適合我們國防需要的這些產品以及技術他隨時都可以跟我們聯絡那我們會來安排"},{"start":9281.806,"end":9309.199,"text":"然後也會召集相關的聯餐跟軍種一起來聽他們的簡報然後甚至於去他們的公司去看實務的展示這些都是持續在進行的那您剛剛講的這個所謂公開徵集我們確實是有一定的時間就是兩階段的這個就是公開徵求的這個部分會開廠商的說明會然後也會公告然後時間都非常明確的會標示"},{"start":9311.556,"end":9339.343,"text":"所以剛剛報告部長提到115年跟116年這個少量採購跟原型開發這些都有目標的案子準備來推動嗎對 所以就是因為這個不管是小批量多案項或者是原型開發的案子它可以在讓我們在原型開發之後我們進行測試評估那小批量多案項也是在我們進行測試評估"},{"start":9341.29,"end":9369.391,"text":"這個都是一定要通過測試評估以後經過我們相關的這些聯參部門他們認可各軍種認可之後這個案子才會進行量產那如果沒有辦法通過的話這個案子就那這個所有研發案就如剛剛所講就是說國科會他也沒有但是我們一定要透過國家的預算來去輔導他們來進行那不然的話我們的國防自主其實就沒有辦法那美國的DIU"},{"start":9370.593,"end":9392.831,"text":"也是這麼做啊,美國DIU早些還有DAPA,他那個講得更深遠,他也不一定都會成功那我們的DIU,他們的DIU跟我們的DIU也同樣,他們相對來講是找比較成熟一點的那不管是成熟或者不成熟,那也包括中科院的"},{"start":9394.753,"end":9417.091,"text":"研發案、科研案都沒有在能夠說確保成功的那如果說都要能夠確保成功,我們不就變成世界第一槍嗎什麼都可以成功最後剛剛這個部長在回答牛許廷哪一位委員提到的時候,你剛剛有一些案件的數量包括編載115年、116年的這一些計畫"},{"start":9422.714,"end":9433.408,"text":"請問你們這個順序是怎樣就是說已經決定了這些計畫來編預算還是你們先框了一筆預算然後在這個預算之下去徵集這些計畫順序上是怎樣"},{"start":9434.525,"end":9458.764,"text":"我們有先框了一個預算,然後我們來進行這個少量採購跟原型開發,但這個預算還是要先通過我們才能執行所以115年的案項,因為還是要等總預算通過才能執行但是你115年的那個案項的金額是剛剛部長已經報到那個少量的跟這個原型開發的這兩個你都講了一個數字吧"},{"start":9460.403,"end":9480.52,"text":"沒有,我剛剛沒有講一些數字,我剛剛講小量採購他每一個案項,10個案項他大概事實上都有一些預算然後原型開發也有一些預算,那這些還是要大院審議通過之後才能夠做所以先花了一筆錢、一筆預算,然後接下來再去找廠商嗎?"},{"start":9482.012,"end":9504.322,"text":"沒有 我們會 事實上有一些案子已經事先有做一些公開徵集的一些工作OK 就公開徵集所以有這個公開徵集之後的大概的預算對對對 那有一些還在招標的階段有一些已經有保留決標但是要做還是要等到預算通過OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝王一超委員的資訊好 謝謝"},{"start":9511.932,"end":9527.319,"text":"下面我們請徐曉欣委員質詢謝謝主席我們是不是能夠有請顧立雄顧部長顧立雄部長"},{"start":9534.781,"end":9548.667,"text":"是徐委員好部長好我想先請您看一下這張照片是我們在憲兵的這個演訓過程當中左邊的這張照片那我想請問您一下在左邊這張照片的演訓有什麼樣的一個問題這個是不是請"},{"start":9555.021,"end":9556.663,"text":"憲兵來回答一下"},{"start":9570.03,"end":9596.342,"text":"你講的應該是說右邊這個畫一條線嘛是不是不是你講的是那個右邊左邊是演訊的照片右邊是你們的公關照那其實上一次我在審查預算的時候我有談到就說這個T112的新式戰鬥步槍我們希望大家都能夠配上瞄具可是呢沒有瞄具因為你們那時候覺得就是說這個可能成本啊然後這個經費的問題"},{"start":9598.143,"end":9609.438,"text":"但是在沒有苗具的情況之下它還是有鐵苗所以兩個粉紅色的圈圈在我們使用T112的時候應該要把它立起來對吧所以您現在是說它的槍口往下是這個意思嗎不是"},{"start":9617.149,"end":9639.304,"text":"兩個粉紅色的圈圈它是鐵苗一個立起來的時候它是一個圈另外前面那個立起來的時候它是一個就是類似於說我看這個鐵苗的時候我可以看到裡面的一個樣態我才能透過步槍去瞄準啊步槍不是手槍啊步槍它是比較長的所以它需要一個瞄準嘛"},{"start":9639.824,"end":9664.5,"text":"所以右邊新一代的T112新式戰鬥步槍它有裝這個瞄具的時候我們的軍人他可以直接從瞄具裡面去做瞄準但先前審查預告我們其實有提到說希望新式步槍都可以配瞄具但是當然各種原因我們都尊重那就沒有辦法都配可是在演訓的過程當中我想提的是為什麼我們的軍人在演訓的時候我們的鐵瞄就是最傳統這種鐵瞄沒有把它立起來呢"},{"start":9670.731,"end":9687.945,"text":"剛剛委員講的那個沒錯那個是瞄準具的基本的張孔然後對準那個準心這是一支裝備的原始的配備這是基本的就是說我們沒有任何的三進就是這把槍之前還是可以用這個去打沒錯啊我剛剛都說了你是在重複我的話"},{"start":9689.867,"end":9716.855,"text":"那第二個為什麼這個三鏡呢這個三鏡我們已經有配備了上次委員講的我們部長給我們指導的最好是每一把槍都會有所以我們的T112出廠的時候已經隨著量產三鏡都會一起去做一個配備那順便問一下那什麼時候這個T112的這個瞄具就是右邊這種比較新型的那能夠每一個這個T112都配"},{"start":9718.555,"end":9722.737,"text":"118年全部8萬多隻新的T-11然後又有新的建案我們現在做第二階段的包含後備部隊我們有一些東西我們只要是供軌的部分現在目前T-91也是供軌嘛我們也會去配備這種傳進來滿足這個需求"},{"start":9739.446,"end":9767.548,"text":"我的問題主要還是在這個因為您剛剛講的對啊就是說在沒有配備新式苗具的狀況之下它有鐵苗的嘛這是它在出場的時候它本來就有的那為什麼我們在演訓的時候應該你要做到就是說我們整體的SOP就演習室同作戰那它都已經把TL2拿出來了為什麼它沒有把這兩個好 這兩個這個鐵苗把它立起來啊我的問題是這個意思就是它沒有"},{"start":9770.381,"end":9795.53,"text":"我在解釋你們要不要跟部長解釋一下這個來去去去都去都去沒事沒事就是說踢喔你跟他解釋好不好報委員抱歉我剛已經講過一次了報委員抱歉因為我從這個圖上我不太能理解您所謂鐵苗因為第一個槍的前面那根叫準心那後面是沾孔那沾孔它其實是一個就是有兩段式有一個就是前沾孔後沾孔"},{"start":9796.61,"end":9822.277,"text":"可是我從這圖上我沒有辦法看到您所謂的鐵苗沒有立起來這個這句話你們苗具的鐵苗是沒有打開的嗎這個其實也是大家就是當天看了這樣的一個過程當中就很疑惑說你在這種T112你這個鐵苗你沒有把它立起來的狀況之下如果你今天是作戰的時候好我問你一個問題好了作戰的時候它這樣子是標準的做法嗎"},{"start":9822.637,"end":9847.771,"text":"那我看不出 我說實在話 我看不出哪裡有問題但是如果真的 我不知道這個要表述的是什麼因為沾孔它是不會降 沾孔我們要去調整它才會降低那它再怎麼降還是一定有一個高度 那所謂的那我問一下喔 它這個T112你在它目前的這樣子一個演訓的過程當中它的瞄準 它又如何瞄準呢"},{"start":9849.151,"end":9874.483,"text":"傳統的瞄準一樣是所謂的準心透過沾孔準心透過沾孔它是有立起來的嗎我這樣子抱歉對不起我這圖上我真的看不出來看不出來但是實際上面他們現場就是已經有人告訴你說就是有這個問題他沒有做這件事情嘛這個大家還需要在這邊應該不會有一個槍的設計上面應該不會有準心跟沾孔沒有立起來的問題"},{"start":9876.714,"end":9901.103,"text":"他今天的狀況他就是他今天的狀況就是他們出去之後然後呢在這個過程當中很多人就有疑惑包含我們的如果真的這個下去我做了了解我跟您報告如果真的是有不對我們就來加強訓練但是這個圖上我建議你們要去改正因為其實在這個軍事包含是軍事記者村裡面在這個事情上面已經討論了"},{"start":9902.603,"end":9917.184,"text":"好幾天了好幾天了所以你今天告訴我說這樣子是OK的那以後你們都是出去演訓的時候沒有因為我說這個上面我看不出哪裡有問題對不起好那你可能你要所以你要去了解一下他演訓的時候是不是如此嗎"},{"start":9917.805,"end":9932.198,"text":"我是告訴你說大家在反應的事情是在演訓的過程當中沒有請他們在這個鐵苗上面去做一些可以瞄準的這個方向跟動作所以說大家對這個事情有爭議覺得你們"},{"start":9936.53,"end":9954.696,"text":"來 請說報告委員 我是作業市長剛剛委員所指正的的確是訓練問題因為他們裝備新接裝那剛才在講說都很正常一切如常很棒的是怎麼回事參謀長你不要我去問兩個部分跟委員報告一下第一個是剛接裝之後他的訓練問題"},{"start":9956.376,"end":9983.047,"text":"沒有把他標準的相關的配置配到定位那第二個部分也是委員指導的應該每一把槍都配三進因此未來每一把槍都配三進之後就不是再運用這個戰口去做基本的射擊我們希望強化官兵基本的戰力這也是部長今年要求我們我們在16年就提出建案每一把槍包含T91未來都會在隨著年度上的建案讓每一把都配附三進我同意所以未來T91"},{"start":9984.708,"end":10011.866,"text":"然後T112他都應該要配這個瞄具如果在沒有配瞄具的情況之下他在訓練上面也要按照他原廠初始設定他要有一個能夠瞄準的這個過程他該接裝要訓練的部分都要做到位我想要提醒的就是這件事情這麼簡單而已你們耗了我這麼多時間參謀長你剛在那邊講了老半天人家也告訴你說確實在訓練上面是有一些要調整的地方嘛好不好你們"},{"start":10015.048,"end":10032.24,"text":"抱歉你別再講了我後面還有很多題目耶是是這個我們要不用在那邊那個我下去了解我們會跟委員辦公室因為我是說這圖上我看不出什麼問題你說你下去了解可是人家剛剛就跟你說他確實在接裝訓練上面有一些要調整的地方了嘛"},{"start":10032.68,"end":10050.673,"text":"社長的意思是說一個新的接莊我們的確不管是佩服苗具或是沒有佩服苗具我們要強化它跟傳統踢九腰的一個強化它的訓練它又不是踢勾腰這個是踢腰腰兩那你為什麼你那你剛剛跟我講的我跟你講踢腰兩你跟我講踢勾腰我們現在就講不同槍支啊這個是腰兩"},{"start":10053.255,"end":10059.358,"text":"對啊 對那你剛剛我說踢勾腰啊你記得你剛剛說什麼嗎報偉 我說要強化跟踢勾腰差別的訓練我知道 也是您剛剛所知道的所以拜託我們以後出去訓練我們把我們最好的裝備拿出來該配備苗具的讓他配備新式的苗具而不是用這樣的這個方式那這個否則會讓大家覺得我們演習適同作戰結果我們的演習要做半吊子這個對大家來講在整體的觀感上面是不好的"},{"start":10081.83,"end":10107.676,"text":"不要找這麼多的藉口該裝的就裝這些預算我們去年也都有在支持也沒有人去做刪減那大家也都很希望能夠去把這個事情給它做好所以你們就是好好的去檢討然後把這個苗具裝上讓大家都有好的配備能夠去使用立法院在之前預算審查也都提出了也都支持了你們也都建案了那是不是就要好好做呢"},{"start":10108.496,"end":10128.013,"text":"好不好那就這個樣子拜託去做一些調整不要每次上來這邊跟我耍嘴皮子講一道就有的沒的該調整的該訓練好的就要做好該支持的我們已經支持了該建案的你們也都說要建案了那就要在他演訓的時候視同作戰把該做到的做到位謝謝好謝謝徐小青委員請坐各位的長官請坐"},{"start":10139.597,"end":10141.28,"text":"我們下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":10160.039,"end":10178.725,"text":"部長我們今天特別訂這個題目就是因為未來我們可能有很多的預算大概也會使用在這個創新小組上面而且未來可能這些創新的科技或者相關的這些軍事採購可能也會越來越多所以我們也希望像這樣子的一個未來的一個"},{"start":10182.226,"end":10199.233,"text":"預算的運用上面我們應該要怎麼樣更精準的去掌握我們所有的進度或者它會造成的一個後續的影響這是我們希望今天可以討論的一個部分就剛剛其實苗師長其實有講了很多可是我們聽到的都是很表象化就是他把它理想化"},{"start":10207.657,"end":10211.92,"text":"我們都認為創新它其實就是有很多其實是還沒有經過很好的驗證的一個部分那它如果說在這個部分其實它並不是很成熟的一個產品的情況之下我們現在要用這個預算的時候我們先來看看我們這一次空軍首次引入AI系統的這個部分它引起基層的一些反彈那也產生非安的風險所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以"},{"start":10237.577,"end":10262.984,"text":"有之前的那個狀況有做一些處置或者調查了嗎跟委員報告 這個這是我們空軍為了增進飛安的監督的程序但是跟現有程序並沒有抵觸這是第一點第二點 報章媒體報導的據我們了解是一個離職員工他拿了初期的資料就是我們這個案子建置初期的資料的爆料的內容跟事實有非常大的落差"},{"start":10263.624,"end":10288.627,"text":"那第三點我們現在目前從驗收之後到現在為止到4月14號總共飛了1184個架次來做驗證那他的勿施率包含我們建議他改進的地方不到1.5%所以說這個報章該死在報的時候是一個拿到非常出奇的資料他出奇的資料是什麼時候第一次驗收或第二次驗收或第三次驗收之前"},{"start":10289.167,"end":10297.269,"text":"第一次驗收是他應該在11月30去年的11月30號報驗11月30之前的資料11月30之前的資料所以後來現在都已經修正完成了因為就這個部分現在如果說有修正完成我們到時候可能也是看一下實際的一個推動的狀況可是我們就這個案子我們要來討論的是這個"},{"start":10318.015,"end":10342.746,"text":"AI案它實際執行當時是誰拿到標案是我們公開招標在去年8月的時候由這個神耀科技公司得標那實際執行的是什麼哪一個有兩家因為它這裡面有兩塊一個是光學的部分一個是光學的鏡頭的部分一個就是軟體的部分是由神耀公司自己來執行那組合約商我們是對神耀"},{"start":10343.496,"end":10350.762,"text":"所以當時有發生很多問題的時候在初始他們拿到那個資料的時候那個問題是出在哪一個部分出在軟體還是整合"},{"start":10353.493,"end":10361.476,"text":"因為鏡頭沒有什麼問題但是因為這還是一樣這是第一次鏡頭幾乎沒有問題啦所以因為鏡頭有很多廠商都可以做我們現在說的是你現在因為我們一直有這樣的問題就是有很大的廠商因為他已經實際上他們大概長期靠集團這樣子的一個資源還有標案的經驗其實他都可以拿到政府的案件可是後來他們再把它轉包出去我們看到很多國防的案子都是這種情況"},{"start":10383.383,"end":10388.367,"text":"這是我們最擔心的今天如果你要讓他好好的做因為這個貝氏科技他們剛剛可能配合的從數百人這樣子的一個大型廠商跟一個貝氏科技這一家可能不到十個人的一個團隊事實上他可以拿到的一個金額大概就會限縮了所以就這個部分我們還是希望我們的程序應該是"},{"start":10409.125,"end":10425.786,"text":"哪一個先有具備這樣的能力比如說這個新創團隊如果他有這樣的能力那他拿到這個標案以後再來跟這個大型的廠商做整合這樣子的標案順序可能是比較對的這個部分我們希望後續可以做一些調整"},{"start":10427.12,"end":10439.594,"text":"我們了解目前是沒有轉包那委員知道的我們後續會加強它不是轉包是因為他們做的事情不一樣可是你這一次其實可能很大的一部分是這一個新創的這個團隊他們做的他們執行的對不對"},{"start":10443.936,"end":10452.422,"text":"因為軟體的部分我們主要是對神藥科技那他們下面有鏡頭的部分是找另外一家廠商來採購沒關係 這個後續我們有詳細的資料我們再來做一些討論今天我們要討論的大概就是這個部分那像這樣子因為這個牽涉到比較多的安全性的一個問題創新其實我們都可以支持"},{"start":10465.071,"end":10468.373,"text":"那也應該要鼓勵可是這種沒有經過充分驗證的產品因為你們上一次在報告裡面也提到這個在第三次驗收以後我們甚至還在不斷的提供我們的參數還有我們一些相關的數據還有一些非安的一些相關的一個資料提供給廠商"},{"start":10484.083,"end":10497.812,"text":"其實照理說他們之前就應該要很清楚的知道這些因為剛開始如果連西夭山洞都沒有辦法判定出來既然西夭山洞是很大型的飛機我們以後要判別的其實是更小型的那個會越來越多的問題"},{"start":10499.833,"end":10513.993,"text":"就這些部分我們覺得可能就說就我了解他們12月10號實施第三次驗說應該所有的問題都已經完成改正第二他是一個輔助系統他並沒有去取代他不是取代原來的廢案的程序"},{"start":10514.865,"end":10531.224,"text":"這樣子會不會造成影響因為那些非官如果認為他們說因為他們上一次就是說這個會造成他們的影響所以不是只有輔助而已這個可能會去誤導或者會去影響他們的判斷嘛所以這個部分你們還是要去注意這一塊"},{"start":10533.279,"end":10557.822,"text":"跟委員補充一下其實腰山洞比戰機還要難判斷因為腰山洞的主輪是在肌腹下面非常貼近他的肌腹戰機他只要放出起落架其實是比較好判斷所以說這個案子並不是我們看到說他比較大就比較好判斷那第二點就是剛開始的時候因為我們也是一直不斷的訓練這個AI的機器所以說他在剛開始霧警會造成人員"},{"start":10558.782,"end":10579.43,"text":"參謀長我在這裡要提醒一個不是我們要去幫他不斷的訓練不是我們要為他資料而是這個機型這個判斷不正確這非常嚴重如果因為包括他進場速度高度不一樣你把C13棟誤判成波音747或者其他戰鬥機其實對我們的一個進場的指示其實他就完全不一樣"},{"start":10584.352,"end":10603.853,"text":"所以就這個部分我相信參謀長對於這個非安的安全你會比我們更重視因為它人工辨識的部分它還是同時變形的它並沒有因為這個就取代了那個所以它AI的學習過程當中但是它人員的這個辨識原來的這個非安的這個程序還是完全遵循的"},{"start":10605.916,"end":10630.028,"text":"部長如果都還要靠人工辨識那你就不需要AI如果你的AI其實你必須讓它精準度可以高於人工的一個辨識所以這是更好當他發現有問題的時候也許太慢了這個部分是我們不容忍它會發生的因為飛行員其實是大家國家很難得培養出來的今天如果他們認為他們自己都認為會影響飛安我想他就是會影響飛安所以我們會持續的經濟謝謝委員"},{"start":10635.151,"end":10652.896,"text":"那因為今天有很多委員在關切到包括部長或我們國防部其實都非常關切我們的這個特別預算還有我們的相關的預算的部分大家也提到很多的無人機我們也藉這個機會可能稍微討論一下因為其實"},{"start":10654.656,"end":10662.782,"text":"很多單位或者甚至部長其實有提到就是說如果他有問題難道或者像F16他遲遲沒有交機我們難道就不買裝備嗎問題其實不是要不要買而是怎麼買其實就像手機一樣我們一直不斷的在討論本席應該是所有的委員裡面最支持無人機還有無人載具應該要進促發展而且應該要"},{"start":10678.895,"end":10703.341,"text":"發展本土化應該要怎麼樣去形成我們所有的戰力這個應該是我們很早很早就一直在提醒的可是當大家在討論預算的時候好像講的我們過去都沒有買而且都沒有花預算一樣其實我們從過去到現在包括去年前年或更早的這幾年其實各個部會都已經花了很大的預算在買這些無人機包括我們去年買的五型"},{"start":10705.862,"end":10709.263,"text":"五行六類的無人機其實它的功能真的是不堪一擊這個後續我們可能再討論可是我們在今天特別要講的就跟買手機一樣今天如果我們買的是我們現在買的是當下適合的產品"},{"start":10721.007,"end":10746.598,"text":"可是等到下一代我們會等到下一代的那個出來以後如果預算允許我們就可以再換可是我們現在的情況不是這樣我們等於是現在下單買一支舊世代的手機而不是馬上拿到你等於可能是8到10年你才會交貨那等到交貨的時候別人已經用到好幾代之後的技術了甚至整個使用的方式也都改變了"},{"start":10747.398,"end":10756.784,"text":"更關鍵的是我們還不能不收也不能換而且要花很多錢去維修去升級繼續用所以現在最大的問題不是我們買錯而是我們整個制度讓我們沒有機會買對這是我們現在最大的問題有什麼樣的補充說明嗎"},{"start":10769.087,"end":10787.023,"text":"委員我只就中科院的肋圓二型無人機來做說明在特別預算裡面編列了32架我跟委員保證從第一架到32架他是不斷在進步絕對不會第一架到32架全部都一樣而且第二32架交機之後我又可以從頭再開始去做第一架的升級"},{"start":10787.403,"end":10791.585,"text":"從過去到現在不管你的職務做了什麼樣的調整你做過很多的保證包括過去我們駝江建我們在建制塔江建的時候還有包括很多過去其實你做了很多的一個承諾或者像類似的保證可是我們要的是它實際上面的成果而不是個人的保證過去也跟我們說有很多的資源投入以後我們會增加很多的"},{"start":10813.635,"end":10820.701,"text":"包括我們的就業機會啦 然後可以提升很多的戰力啦還有做什麼 包括我們的國防自主飛機 還有船艦 還包括很多的彈藥等等其實都這麼說 包括無人機無人機我記得你也提過很多很多次不管哪一類的 然後艦翔啦 各方面其實你都有很遠大的一個理想"},{"start":10835.151,"end":10849.337,"text":"然後可是事實上我們看到現在的成果還沒有辦法達到大家期待的那個那個素質我現在要特別再舉一個例子抱歉主席再借一點時間我們現在要講的我剛剛一直說我們現在把它放在特別預算裡面它會造成的問題因為部長我們都很清楚我們也希望有些國防預算是足以"},{"start":10860.181,"end":10874.148,"text":"讓我們取得更好的一些武器裝備剛剛提到日本剛剛提到韓國剛剛提到澳洲他們的國防預算都在增加沒有錯日本也在增加可是我們也有增加而且我們增加的金額也非常多GDP日本其實它從過去一點多到現在它也不過到2"},{"start":10878.49,"end":10886.334,"text":"它其實增加它也佔GDP的2%我們從過去的2點幾%現在光是我們的總預算還加過去上去年年底通過的1100多億的這個預算我們已經高達3%以上了如果再有特別預算其實它甚至可能接近很快的接近5%可是這5%到底怎麼用我們先來談談我們的我們舉一個例子好了啦就是我們的"},{"start":10908.007,"end":10922.411,"text":"戰機我們最重要的戰機我們F16AB第一代三代機的時候那時候我們當年取得國際上其實已經在發展第五代戰機了現在我們還在等第三代戰機的升級"},{"start":10924.452,"end":10927.735,"text":"像這個3.5代新機的交付也已經整整跨了十年我們到現在還沒有拿到別人都是五代機而且甚至現在已經推進到下一代戰機的研發到第六代它的研發跟測試了這個重點不是型號你們跟我們說那個換個模組你們講得非常簡單事實上有這麼容易你所有的機型"},{"start":10948.155,"end":10958,"text":"如果是舊的以後你馬上換模組就可以變成一個新型的一個作戰的武器裝備然後可以適應所有的戰場模式嗎這個部分你們講的太簡單如果可以過去我們中科院自己做的好像很多都可以了因為你們那時候都說是成功的所以重點不是型號而是整個節奏我們拿到的是現在決定的這個裝備可是我們會用到的是十年以後的戰場"},{"start":10977.529,"end":10983.252,"text":"因為你一拉至少8年或者甚至10年所以就這些部分我們還是希望在我們所有的預算的運用上面要怎麼樣去做拿捏不要當我們想要有更新的裝備因為大家看到美國自己在使用的無人機是很好用而且也用的很多可是現在已經不是用單純的干擾我們那個干擾槍早就落後了"},{"start":11003.303,"end":11031.881,"text":"他們現在剛剛你們也提到了就是有一些可能雷射的裝備或者其他的這個部分他一次就可以讓所有的無人機都可以掉落下來所以他戰場不斷的在精進我們要怎麼樣只是那個不是只是更換模組所以我們不要偷換概念我們也希望這些錢可以用到位那怎麼樣用應該要怎麼樣編列希望不要每次都只是要錢而已然後把所有責任都推給在野黨 謝謝"},{"start":11033.786,"end":11050.192,"text":"我想我只是在說明,就是說日本、韓國、澳洲他們都是在推動國防自主,也都是長年期而且是多訂單的那我想剛剛也在說明,不管是透過模組化的概念,或者是軟體迭代更新的概念,我們都會希望盡量將這個無人機透過迭代創新的方式"},{"start":11050.452,"end":11053.195,"text":"我認同 可是我們有提到你必須要跟經濟部包括國科會包括其他相關的單位他們去做整合國防部我們的主要的一個核心價值我們是要採購國防的武器而且形成集戰力可以保家衛國"},{"start":11067.853,"end":11092.418,"text":"我們要做的很重要的是這個部分我們可以把關鍵的能量跟他們去做整合然後讓他們提供更好的或者我們要怎麼樣去做本土化的一個我們的建制這個本期都贊成可是不是用國防預算花大筆的國防預算以後如果他沒有成功我們以後甚至沒有錢可以再投入人家新的戰場產生以後我們應該要買的武器裝備所以這個部分是大家要思考的謝謝好 謝偉"},{"start":11099.106,"end":11123.133,"text":"謝謝馬委員部長你喝口水下面請洪玉祥委員質詢好謝謝主席有請國安部部長是洪委員"},{"start":11123.732,"end":11146.429,"text":"好 我想今天的話大概就是你們的報告就是新興科技用在不對稱作戰跟效能分析與未來的一個發展所以我把你們的報告也很認真的看完所以我發現 我先講我總體結論就是說這樣子的報告說實在是不合格不合格"},{"start":11151.505,"end":11178.003,"text":"所以我在想等會後諮詢你們可以再交詳細的報告給我我身為在外面審查那麼多的案子這種東西叫做都是形容詞我等一下再跟各位說明所以我整個下這個結論我看完你們的報告我把我那個非常豐富的投影片全部都作廢重做"},{"start":11180.421,"end":11185.783,"text":"就是你的AI這樣子用 創新科技這樣用真的會變成BI然後就CI 國網個系來 AI的基本功如果各位要幫部長回答都可以因為部長也不是我們資通訊專業的 沒有問題AI基本功 資料 模型 推論 動作 動態回饋"},{"start":11210.959,"end":11225.791,"text":"所以你們在做每一個案子的時候都要去考慮這件事情你的Data Source對不對夠不夠準不準你的模型是哪一種模型Pretrained的模型哪一個不知道我都看不到你可以呼籲其他沒有資訊專長的委員沒有問題但我不是"},{"start":11240.458,"end":11257.517,"text":"我加大畢業之後資工系畢業之後我就在做這件事情做整個系統整合做軟體我念博士班的時候impeded real-time system那時候還是接中科院的計畫雄風那時候還要做reverse engineering"},{"start":11263.277,"end":11286.749,"text":"所以我覺得你們這種東西就是紮實一點然後講資安也是你們現在講的是說我AI去弄資安可是當你們現在講要創新科技用AI的時候新型態的AI的資安呢我的plump ingestion我的gold hijackingplump的leaking模型的混亂干擾"},{"start":11291.211,"end":11304.739,"text":"這個當你在外包的時候或者是你在做合作的時候這些都要去處理我今天只是提醒部長部長就了解這個問題就好好好去問這些底下要負責的人"},{"start":11305.779,"end":11313.303,"text":"跟委員報告我們今天不是在做AI的報告沒有問題不是不是不是這都你寫的不是我寫的喔不是我們是在就總體的國防創意小組來來來部長不要給我唬爛"},{"start":11321.75,"end":11339.238,"text":"第二頁你寫的什麼叫做我跟你唬爛多元 這你寫的啊多元情資融合強化預診能力這不是我寫的喔AI分析及決策輔助工具我們的報告當然不可能在每一個環節裡面都做不是 這是你們寫的不然這是誰寫的那我們如果光一個AI我可以寫十頁給你啊不 這你寫的嘛什麼叫做我們唬弄這不是你寫的嗎不然這是誰寫的"},{"start":11350.303,"end":11362.807,"text":"你們報告第二頁第一項 我都招你們的AI分析及決策輔助工具發展成熟二本部客規劃整資整合系統結資料融合及AI輔助分析然後再來第二頁的第三項地面無人載具投入多元場景"},{"start":11374.434,"end":11396.498,"text":"的第一點結合AI功能UGV可投入偵查火力資源全部都是這不是我寫的啊 這你們寫的啊然後再多了 第三頁裡面自衛化後勤系統提升整體效能對不對 用AI來做輔助 做分析不是我寫的 這都你們寫的"},{"start":11403.767,"end":11411.952,"text":"第八項資安AI技術防範進階網路威脅資安防禦重點由被動阻擋轉向主動偵測這都你們寫的不是我寫的第八項你們的報告第四頁那請問有什麼問題問題多了"},{"start":11424.478,"end":11438.73,"text":"那你講一下我講的啊所以我沒有叫你回答我知道你也不會回答你剛剛講一個AI的基本這個不曉得後面還有所以我剛剛問了嘛這個有什麼好在那邊那你就找回答誰可以幫我回答我後面這些問題比如說這是你們寫的啊模型採用的我想要問的什麼是哪種樣的標準你的Pretrain的資料數量會是多少"},{"start":11454.369,"end":11467.976,"text":"中科院還是誰我覺得我們在回答這些問題的時候我們要考慮到我們的機敏性那好隨便中科院可以回答不機敏的好不好那中科院可以嘗試回答不機敏"},{"start":11470.333,"end":11495.334,"text":"先跟您誠實的報告我們所有引入的模型基本上我們是引入人家的模型然後回來以後用我們自己的資料來訓練他那真的沒辦法我知道就是Pretrain的話是引進國際的模型的時候你Pretrain的時候對不對我們是因為你要考慮到是說我是在雲端AI做還是在Edge AI還是在地面型地端AI因為這三個都有可能"},{"start":11496.653,"end":11524.386,"text":"回來我們要分兩個階段第一個階段是在實驗室裡面做封閉式的學習因為不然我會影響到我整個戰備我也不敢這樣直接把它擺進去那在實驗室完之後我們會到中間還有一個隔離實驗室在隔離實驗室它就跟戰備有一些接上了但是它必須要兼受軍種的測裁OK的 成熟的我們才會進到我的整個系統裡面再去做機械學習大概分成這兩個階段所以他們現在用的這個Pretrained的模型"},{"start":11525.675,"end":11554.701,"text":"會是我們商用的那幾個還是說他們從商用那邊再調成軍用的這點你知道嗎是直接用軍用的直接用軍用的是OK好那如果不機敏的話就再跟我做一點報告分析因為我對這個東西是相當有興趣啦因為這會影響到我們後面的推論是那因為你的Ashen之後會再跟你的D端雲端這邊Edge端裡頭的整合好不好對這個大概是這樣子相關"},{"start":11555.841,"end":11583.374,"text":"剛剛委員所指教的AI的一些基本功我想我們大家都已經有參與討論那如果說委員想要知道一些我們可以私下再跟委員來指教再給我一點時間主席這個下一個就是我那時候在經濟部的時候做召委質詢的時候事實上我對於軍民科技我是支持的但是現在的話就是民間廠商反映了"},{"start":11584.485,"end":11604.877,"text":"就是我們這整個整機這樣做來之後因為數量很龐大未來只會越來越多所以在通訊整合然後敵我識別這是不是可以精確這一點的這個防干擾的能力然後另外我們也擔心我們平常擔心也是衛星所以大概就這幾個問題也請總科院"},{"start":11609.175,"end":11625.744,"text":"第一個那個通訊整合的問題我們現在正在把原本的那個寬頻通信機透過精創計畫的依註把它晶片化晶片化之後我們就用軟體定義無線電的方式來去做一個整個大型資料鏈的整合"},{"start":11626.264,"end":11645.271,"text":"這是第一個部分第二個問題是十三中的敵我識別確實是很討厭尤其是我們如果要製造地域場景的話目前我們做的方式就是因為我們都是autonomous所以你最重要的是你的任務規劃所以在任務規劃的時候做整合所以我才知道我的我的飛機在哪我們現在基本上就是我不是我的無人機"},{"start":11646.011,"end":11661.4,"text":"我就視為敵機這是目前我們整個一個系統設計比較回到初始的概念那防干擾的能力就是我們繼續在SERPA這上面做努力另外除了SERPA就是陣列天線之外我們在今年的預算裡面像當然還沒審過"},{"start":11662.501,"end":11687.628,"text":"我們針對無GNS Denied的狀況我們去做了 利用我們是防衛作戰的一方我只能這樣講 利用我們是防衛作戰的一方來發揮我們防衛作戰的地理空間的優勢來去防止相關的干擾好 因為我想要知道的是說沒有問題啦 因為短時間我們也沒辦法回答清楚如果一樣 非機敏的 我們可以好好討論因為我們都是為了國家更好因為我在做"},{"start":11688.786,"end":11716.982,"text":"那個經濟部的質詢的時候因為我們晶片我其實也參與啊因為金創那時候的計畫嘛但是在就很不幸的我們在非島控地島籌載通訊這些我們的晶片化還是不足所以基本上龔部長 龔明星部長也說過了就是他在15年會做但是他可能要到17年可能這一個國產化的晶片還不見得啊就是說盡量達成目標"},{"start":11718.345,"end":11740.286,"text":"所以就回到剛剛馬文君委員問的因為就是軍民的科技的合用這一塊我們希望是把我們無人機的自主化的這個比例拉高但這樣子的通訊相關的這四個關鍵型的晶片不曉得中科跟因為你們在經濟部那邊也有軍民科技的合作所以跟民間廠商的配合這一塊"},{"start":11741.601,"end":11765.539,"text":"是不是可以再趕上進度出來這樣子我想簡單然後如果鐘哥要再補充原則上也就是說我們跟經濟部不斷的再去調查有關國內包括甚至國外它相關的人量在這幾個方面那有關國內可以能量的部分我們當然國內能夠就把它納入如果國內能量還沒有的還要國外"},{"start":11765.919,"end":11778.69,"text":"那我們當然的政策我們的政策就是要希望他們提供技術移轉或者共同開發然後能夠落地生產這個是我們總的一個這個我都同意我現在只是說"},{"start":11780.054,"end":11804.125,"text":"速度嘛對不對因為不然我們弄完了之後又是下一代了我怕是Fast out這樣的東西所以剛剛才會講到說這些材料因為我是尊敬中科院的啦非常尊敬包括這個模組化也好包括用軟體驅動也好讓它不斷能夠迭代更新這就是我們現在努力的方向嘛好這個另外我們在民間廠商合作的時候就是說在專屬的軍用的測試"},{"start":11807.006,"end":11830.876,"text":"那個場域目前的準備狀況的因為我們必須要符合實際作戰電池抗干擾測試這些等等所以這個地方是落在還是嘉義那個嗎還是不是這個沙河會落在南部地區沙崙不是差不多好那我就知道了我也沒有什麼特別問題我只問出我要的答案就好了謝謝"},{"start":11833.922,"end":11854.647,"text":"委員我再補充報告一下就您剛剛講這些晶片的發展齁其實因我們國家的科技實力發展這些晶片都不是難事其實我們現在都有蠻大的突破真正的重點是沒有人要幫我排製成因為量的問題 謝委員明白嘛 就是預算扎下去嘛 好不好有國家隊嘛 可以啦好 謝謝 接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11872.264,"end":11896.157,"text":"我是建議沙盒還是放嘉義啊因為這個民修航太園區他整體的規劃上面來講創新的這個產業我還是認為要放就放嘉義不要再放到沙崙或者是其他地方是對整體的創造一個cluster比較有幫助好我們先針對在野黨針對無人機的這些說法我想要請這一個站規師來協助我們來回應一下請站規師"},{"start":11907.808,"end":11929.463,"text":"將軍好 將軍這個在野黨他最近在批評我們軍購的無人機他說一直在強調說什麼歷經俄烏戰爭的驗證跟美軍進行實戰測驗他們一直在說那個對買的是比較沒有那麼好的產品我覺得我們要第一時間必須要跟所有的民眾報告說不是這樣 為什麼不是這樣"},{"start":11931.707,"end":11944.863,"text":"我們先講二五戰爭這一塊,我們相關的資訊是透過很多管道去獲得那當然外面公開情勢上面有一些資訊也不見得是對的我舉個例子來說"},{"start":11946.786,"end":11963.255,"text":"大家都說彈簧刀300在烏克蘭的效果非常差但是事實上去年美國出兵委內瑞拉的時候聯合特戰司令部他用的就是彈簧刀300去摧毀那個地面上所有哨戰上面的目標"},{"start":11964.215,"end":11992.034,"text":"那當然無人機的這種產品基本上它會隨著戰場狀況不斷的變化相關資訊跟參數不斷的獲得之後它要去延改否則那個公司它出的產品也不可能生存的下去那這個部分我們當然還是會配合商情然後跟我們與友盟幫之間的情勢交換不斷的去獲得最新的資訊來確保我們這些相關的武器裝備獲得之後"},{"start":11993.815,"end":12012.052,"text":"能夠發揮它應有的效能我必須強調一遇到這樣子的不太正確的質詢的時候不太正確的資訊的時候我們第一時間就要出來講不是等到我質詢的時候我們才再反映在業長的這個提出來的這些問題第一時間我們就要主動謝謝委員給這個機會陸軍參謀長在這邊做一點補充報告那我想剛才委員提這個問題我就以"},{"start":12021.219,"end":12042.484,"text":"這個國外新創公司和我們未來在特別預算要採購這個無人機來說第一個它是實際上不斷的由美國的專責軍種在對它做測試那我們在這個今年也看到美軍美陸軍公佈對這一型的無人機做了這個APA-7直升機的口中投放"},{"start":12043.004,"end":12058.595,"text":"那事實上它也不斷地在做一個跨平台發射的整合風群的協作還有實戰場景還有擊殺鏈的測試那另外也有提及到說這樣的無人機除了剛才司長報告的一個實際使用的經驗之外"},{"start":12059.255,"end":12085.551,"text":"那它在戰場上面的經驗它是不斷的透過它的迭代透過它的軟體、韌體還有它的演算力還有它的看干擾不斷的在更新那另外除了這個美軍自己在特戰指揮部也有使用同型的無人機那我們在去年的攻勤在2025年3月看到詹士年艦公告英國也採購了這一型無人機有3000萬英鎊"},{"start":12086.972,"end":12113.973,"text":"大致在新台幣目前的匯率來說12.7億那至於他如何運用這個我們就不去討論那另外我要報告的一點就是說我們採購的這個無人機我們現在如果買一個已經成熟的我們並不是買斷我們在特別預算我們買的我必須跟委員報告我們跟軍售和這個合約商我們要求他簽訂全售期的保固條款也就是"},{"start":12115.208,"end":12139.227,"text":"我不管是回來我自己的驗測無人機失效或是有任何的迭代就像我們購買一個防毒軟體一樣我一買可能是買一年它有任何的update它又必須幫我做而且包含到已膠裝的和在我庫儲裡面的在全售期裡面的保固條款是我們在採購這種新新迭代快速的無人機我們必須要做到的以上報告非常感謝"},{"start":12139.867,"end":12167.624,"text":"那我們今天為什麼要問這個問題就是要讓所有的民眾知道說我們購買的每一個項目它是隨時隨地都會在迭代它迭代不是硬體上面的迭代重點不是因為每一個的無人載具其實老實說台灣做的跟這個中國做的跟美國做的大同小異大同小異說有些能力會比較好一些但是重點是你怎麼使用它重點是在戰場的環境變化的時候你怎麼去適應它那我們怎麼會說這一個東西不好用你怎麼知道它不好用呢你在戰場上經過驗證之後它就隨時可以調整啊"},{"start":12169.565,"end":12194.46,"text":"所以包含這個CBS在他這個有一個60 minutes他的這個節目裡面有特別針對烏克蘭的部分重點不是你的無人載具多新跑得多快或飛得多快而是你有沒有辦法適應戰場的環境有沒有辦法看干擾被干擾的時候可不可以立刻換他的通訊模組剛才你們有提到的嘛或者是說怎麼樣可以在新的這個戰場的環境之下用最快的速度來去迭代把原型機器弄出來然後立刻再去迭代"},{"start":12195.2,"end":12211.389,"text":"事實上在這個烏克蘭的部分他們原則上是基本上是每一個禮拜每一個禮拜基本上他們的文件就疊代不是說那個硬體突然變化換了一個什麼更好的電子不一定他可能只是他在看剛好例子他增加或者是用新的solution來去"},{"start":12211.969,"end":12238.691,"text":"面對他的這個戰場環境那每一個環境我們都是不斷的在去適應當中怎麼會說這一個東西不好用怎麼會說這個東西這一種載具就是一定是不好的不可能是這樣子所以當有這個政協黨的提出這樣子的資訊如果軍方覺得不正確第一時間就要立刻來去回應不要等到說已經我自己看到已經三四天之後我還看到有人在傳這樣的訊息我覺得這樣是不太正確的接下來我們請部長"},{"start":12242.029,"end":12242.174,"text":"保障"},{"start":12246.316,"end":12274.958,"text":"部長好部長應該我在DIO最開始我們設立之後我就有針對DIB的部分來去跟這一個部長討論那DIB的就是BoardBoard的意思就是說他是做戰略層面上面那在美國的話因為他現在已經跟他們的科學委員會又整合了但是在最開始HCR的時候他們是針對一些重大的他們的科技產業定期的來去開會並且把他們的報告全部公開"},{"start":12275.518,"end":12301.793,"text":"那這些包含Google的執行長等等那包含AI啦生物科技等等全部都涵蓋在裡面然後提出給這一個部長那直接的這個建議我不知道我們有沒有類似這樣子的機制我們現在是跟工研院有一個委託的計畫這一點是不是請證明是要受理包委員您剛才問到的是DIB的部分那就"},{"start":12303.462,"end":12324.294,"text":"政府部門來講就是行政院也有無人機的小組然後在府方也有針對國防新興科技成立了相關的委員會然後這是跨部會的一個機制那各司其職會針對他自己的業館會針對整個國防生態體系的建構去建立了一個完整的機制"},{"start":12325.114,"end":12352.231,"text":"所以這個雖然沒有完全叫做DIB但是性質跟他的利益是相類似的那我為什麼講這個事情的原因在於說他DIB他定期出的這個報告他是基本上把國防產業的這個方向來去把它點出來那就是說這些在一般的企業商用商業的話他就願意來去投資願意來去因為由這個報告來去推斷說未來有沒有這樣子的商業的需求那他們的投資量就會更大"},{"start":12352.611,"end":12363.487,"text":"所以我是建議有類似這樣子的做法是非常好的那接下來我想請教一下這一個關於這個DIO我們的這個部分我們有沒有網站啊待會我們有網站就"},{"start":12367.615,"end":12384.053,"text":"我們來看一下,我們有網站,DIO我們有嗎?就我們來講,剛剛因為有一些相關的一些,您講的比較在上面的一個層次不好意思時間不夠,我先問一下第二題,DIO我們沒有網站"},{"start":12386.856,"end":12402.542,"text":"包委員我們的網站就是設在國防部裡面沒有特別針對信心科技的這個徵期沒有網站兩年了我們沒有網站那你知道為什麼我要特別講我們這件事情DIU的話基本上它是有各個不同的我們剛剛說你們去訪問商員"},{"start":12405.183,"end":12415.999,"text":"你們的組成是什麼我看剛才有回應嘛DIO的組成還是以這個中科院文官那有些時候是工研院來去介調那整個idea就不對了嘛"},{"start":12416.872,"end":12444.405,"text":"你知道這個美國DIU他基本上他負責的從他的前主任到全部都是不管是創投的或者是這個矽谷的創業家或者是軍事科技相關的我們不需要在原本的架構我們今天我們講DIO DIU就是要超越原本的架構之下嘛那我還要再去國防部去他的採購網站才知道DIO現在要發什麼樣需要什麼樣的商求要去詢問什麼樣的商情"},{"start":12446.718,"end":12469.673,"text":"美國DIU如果進來我們要學習我們其實十年前的時候我在國安會的時候我就把整個DIO、DIU然後還有包含他們到時候嘗試的這個國防創新的Pipeline其實也有寫相關的報告那也有自己後來也有寫相關的文章出來我們最簡單的就是說如果你要超越原本的這個框架的話那你就不可以再找過去的這一些商源嘛"},{"start":12470.313,"end":12483.478,"text":"那你怎麼樣不找過去的商員?不然你有一個自己的網站讓他們能夠依照他們自己的需求來去找看看你有什麼樣的solicitation剛才你有提到的嘛那我們都不知道我還要跑去政府採購網政府採購網來介面看一下再看一下美國的前面再看一下前面的"},{"start":12491.795,"end":12520.718,"text":"根據不同的狀況他如果是國防部的議員他提出我們可能軍種上面有問題我該怎麼樣提出來我就透過DIO我希望說這樣子的一個機制能夠替我們解決如果我是一般的商員公司我是一般的創投我是一般的這個科技公司我想要跟國防部想要來去提案的話我在這邊可以直接選然後就提供我的公司的簡歷那我就不用一個禮拜兩個禮拜我再開一個沒有人來的公聽會或者有人來或者沒有人來"},{"start":12521.579,"end":12540.339,"text":"你的資料庫就在裡面啦那你就是超越原本你自己的資料庫你就不用再去綁以前的商員啦同樣的同樣中科院可能會綁定哪些公司我不知道啦或者是工研院可能平常跟哪些公司企業比較好的我們就可以超越這個東西那如果可以超越的話不是更好嗎我們可不可以盡快有一個至少"},{"start":12541.4,"end":12568.393,"text":"既然我們學習美方,那我們就來去看一下他們好的這個地方我們現在做是比較傾向於我們是跟經濟部還有公園合作然後他會去媒介相關的這些商員然後會討論用一個閉門論座談的一個方式去討論我們軍種的需求然後去了解民間有哪些可以回應我們的這個需求是這樣的一個做法"},{"start":12570.879,"end":12591.321,"text":"好謝謝那最後跟部長來去做一個替我們嘉義的民雄航太園區來去請命DIO它進駐的就是DIO它的不同的這個Branch分部那在美國的話有波士頓有矽谷有在芝加哥有在Austin都有"},{"start":12592.142,"end":12614.15,"text":"那我認為說未來我們的民雄航灘園區未來可能會有產業許許多多的商業商用商規的這些產業進駐那如果未來有機會的話那DIO也可以在那邊有一個住所分處的話那可能會對我們未來的整合我們整合國防創新能力會有幫助這一點是不是可以請部長來考慮一下"},{"start":12615.445,"end":12629.414,"text":"就是您說在第二站那邊有一個駐點這樣子我們可以來考慮好 謝謝 謝謝部長這個對我們民教航站園區會是一個很重要的加分好 謝謝大家好 謝謝委員要不要說"},{"start":12642.096,"end":12663.183,"text":"好 我們現在已登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄 刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內書面答覆那委員有約定期限者從期鎖定那針對剛剛政會司司長有上來提到說"},{"start":12668.426,"end":12672.87,"text":"彈簧刀300的部分其實大概大家講的不是彈簧刀300大家講的是Artist 600就是這個部分所以這個部分包括我們陸軍參謀長剛剛有提到英國採購的部分麻煩提供書面資料另外我們也有要求必須要提供因為我們過去在列銷已經有五十幾億的採購案"},{"start":12693.286,"end":12697.387,"text":"那現在在特別運算裡面或者我們其他可能也編列了高達好幾百億所以它的規格因為也有剛剛有委員提到這個可能是錯誤的訊息那既然錯誤麻煩你們提供具體的資料"},{"start":12709.771,"end":12737.389,"text":"為什麼我們指定要買這一家廠商因為剛剛你們說甚至這是迭代的等於他的全壽期從出生到死亡我們全部都是這一家廠都是這些廠商那這些廠商他可以做到什麼樣子我們必須在一開始就知道他基因到底好不好那就這個部分我們還是希望在時間內趕快提供資料我們之前好像已經有要求了本次會議到此結束 散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}