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大家好"},{"start":1393.263,"end":1418.708,"text":"謝謝各位今天參與立法院舉辦的對總統提出彈劾案全院委員會聽證會依據中華民國憲法徵修條文立法院職權新施法之規定總統彈劾案須經本院全體立法委員二分之一以上提交付全院委員會審查全院委員會得依憲法之規定舉行聽證會"},{"start":1421.213,"end":1446.299,"text":"並得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員出席表達意見與正言向大家報告第四會期本院委員會分別依上開規定對賴清德總統提出彈劾案之提議並經同會期第15次會議作出決定於4月27號舉行聽證會本院"},{"start":1451.072,"end":1464.356,"text":"依照院會決定與今天舉行聽證會由各黨團所邀請之出席人員針對彈劾案發表意見與證言並由各黨團推派委員進行詢問"},{"start":1471.584,"end":1488.967,"text":"各位所表達的意見與詢問的內容將作為審查彈劾案之重要參考在此特別感謝各位為聽證會所做的準備與發言接下來"},{"start":1490.543,"end":1519.829,"text":"要向本院以及社會大眾介紹本次聽證會出席的學者專家首先我們歡迎林藤耀教授再來我們也歡迎楊家法發起人再來我們歡迎黃景堂教授再來我們歡迎紀俊成教授"},{"start":1523.359,"end":1547.315,"text":"接下來我們歡迎蔣貴美教授接下來我們歡迎李勝峰副主席謝謝各位參加繼續介紹本院出席的委員同仁邱惠祿委員王育明委員羅志強委員"},{"start":1552.574,"end":1572.803,"text":"翁曉琳委員黃建斌委員許忠信委員洪玉祥委員丁學忠委員針對今天聽證會本席現在做以下宣告一"},{"start":1574.901,"end":1600.759,"text":"聽證會全程採公開舉行方式進行程序一序先由應邀出席人員發表發言表達意見、正言每人十分鐘再由各黨團推派委員進行詢問每位委員詢問時間十分鐘詢問採疾問疾答方式進行二、發言及詢問的次序"},{"start":1603.084,"end":1624.576,"text":"請參閱陳列於各位桌上的名單各黨團所邀請之出席人員本院詢問委員如果不在場或必要時得互相調換資訊三 各出席人員詢問委員之發言詢問及書面資料均會做成聽證會記錄並於今天當場製作完成"},{"start":1630.81,"end":1656.622,"text":"請針對個人所發言或詢答的內容當場閱覽確認及簽名對聽證會記錄之記載如果有異議者請及時提出主席任異議有理由者應予以更正或補充沒有理由者應記名其異議因此請各位全程參與會議"},{"start":1660.863,"end":1669.249,"text":"現在我們開始進行出席人員發言首先我們請林滕耀教授發言時間十分鐘主席各位委員各位媒體朋友"},{"start":1691.224,"end":1715.318,"text":"這個針對今天這個彈劾的這個聽證會啊我看到這個賴清德透過這個總統府啊表示啊他坦坦蕩蕩但是他講了四個字但是沒有說明理由為什麼坦坦蕩蕩他也不到"},{"start":1716.673,"end":1745.121,"text":"立法院來向全國人民報告我覺得他好像是得了一個憲法痴呆症或是憲政狂妄症那麼我覺得是不是應該找一個憲法醫生找幾個憲法醫生給他看一看"},{"start":1747.725,"end":1775.645,"text":"各位女士各位先生針對賴清德的彈劾案我寫了一篇違反憲法忠誠義務背叛人民背離憲法八大精神的賴清德致應受彈劾我便就附上了一些憲政血淚史的文章"},{"start":1777.284,"end":1804.732,"text":"多在立法院的书面文件上请大家参考便此教那么我现在来说说赖清德有没有违反宪法忠诚义务背叛人民我想这两年来大家都看得很清楚赖清德在"},{"start":1806.368,"end":1831.708,"text":"就任总统的时候有依照中华民国宪法第48条宪誓向全国人民宪誓那个誓词很清楚啊他说一臂遵守宪法尽忠职务如有违誓言验受国家严厉之制裁"},{"start":1833.595,"end":1861.94,"text":"但是这两年来大家可以看得出来他便没有尽忠职务没有这个遵守宪法那么为什么我们可以举一些事例来说明因为我们知道宪法第一条讲的就是中华民国基于三民主义为"},{"start":1863.103,"end":1889.559,"text":"民有、民智、民享之民主共和國但是這兩年來我們看到它把這一條啊幾乎扭曲為黨有、黨智、黨享之黨主獨裁國更嚴重的是甚至變化為賴有、賴智、賴享之賴主獨裁國"},{"start":1892.059,"end":1919.553,"text":"那我們舉一些例子為什麼這樣講呢首先你看到最近大家在討論的這個1.25兆的禁購他居然到南部鄉下去講說不能打折我不曉得他到底是誰啊他是我們中華民國憲法顯出來人民的公僕連李任惠都講過人民是頭家"},{"start":1921.121,"end":1946.855,"text":"他怎麼可以跟投家講不能打折特別這個金購是1.25兆很龐大的金額依照憲法的規定要由立法院來審議來審查那我這裡感到非常痛心的是這1.25兆這個大錢可不可以這樣花"},{"start":1948.53,"end":1973.955,"text":"特別是在經購的弊端 臣服不窮特別是在美國跟伊朗這個戰爭這個戰爭已經跟過去的戰爭形態不一樣那你這個在戰爭以前所要立案所發表的那些採購書是不是可以符合未來的戰爭"},{"start":1976.991,"end":2002.96,"text":"我們想得很清楚這次戰爭整個戰爭形態改變以後這些早期的發酵這些武器對台灣有什麼效果所以我覺得立法院要特別去審查絕對不能期從於美國的這些廠商的壓力然後把人民的血汗納稅錢都無端的消費掉"},{"start":2005.56,"end":2033.551,"text":"另外他有没有违反宪法忠诚义务背叛人民最明显的就是宪法明明规定一般通过法例案总统收到以后要在十天内公布但是他偏偏就违反这一条很明显的违反这个宪法的这个忠诚义务那我们现在要谈到最要紧的更严重的是他不只背叛人民"},{"start":2034.841,"end":2058.59,"text":"它是背离了宪法的八大精神宪法有哪八大精神呢我在书面文件上大家可以看到首先第一个它背离的是宪法第一条所明示的民友、民智、民想的民主共和国的精神"},{"start":2061.479,"end":2085.948,"text":"第二个他背离的是宪法第二条所明定的主权属于国民全体这主权在民精神第三个背离的是权力分立于多数统治的宪法精神第四个背离的是责任政治的宪法精神"},{"start":2088.151,"end":2112.262,"text":"第五个背离的是依法行政之宪法精神第六个背离的是依据法律独立审判之宪法精神第七个背离的是依据法律独立监察行政权之宪法精神"},{"start":2114.926,"end":2143.354,"text":"第八個背離的是依據法律公正考試的憲法精神這個八個精神我在書面的文件上都有舉例它哪些背離我在這裡就不再重複請大家仔細看一看就知道它有沒有真的在背離最後我要講的最重要的就是"},{"start":2144.704,"end":2171.709,"text":"我們要更加警惕的是賴清德對中華民國憲政價值的污衊賴清德在今年3月14日在公開場合表示國民政府對人民之對待比日本殖民統治更差這個說法步入了他的奴性本質他在台南當過市長"},{"start":2173.331,"end":2200.401,"text":"相信一定聽過南部鄉下人所說的這種日式殖民對台灣農民的剝削我想他已經聽過這句話了那國民政府怎麼給那些日式時代的電農翻身的"},{"start":2201.704,"end":2226.41,"text":"怎么让台湾的经济起辉怎么创立台积电的又赖清德怎么受大学教育怎么当上总统的所以我们感到很悲伤的就是赖清德沉寂了中华民国宪政制度而取得总统权力"},{"start":2228.812,"end":2246.263,"text":"卻全般否定中華民國憲政的歷史與價值這個已經形成其人格的認知與執政正當性的矛盾我們都知道賴清德說過中華民國是災難但為了選舉他改說中華民國憲法是災難"},{"start":2254.363,"end":2278.401,"text":"如今他走在中華民國憲法總統有權無責的災難下選擇不出席答辯意圖逃避此事的彈劾不過在他卸任總統後一定逃不過憲法第48條所規定的國家嚴厲的制裁"},{"start":2284.127,"end":2284.227,"text":"主席"},{"start":2321.28,"end":2345.157,"text":"主席、各位委員、還有媒體朋友大家好我是7月兇風者聯盟發起人楊家法我今天要報告的題目是錯誤的能源政策錯誤的能源政策比貪污更可怕我今天等一下會講我們的國安危機跟我們的財務黑洞"},{"start":2346.656,"end":2372.546,"text":"那我們看到下一頁給大家帶來幾個時間點給大家看賴清德總統在2023年底的政見發表會上面說不管任何時候我們的備轉容量率都有10到15%這句話其實是凸顯了他對於電力的無知我們看下一頁"},{"start":2374.909,"end":2393.228,"text":"到了去年823核三重啟的公投賴清德總統明確的表態不同意並且呼籲全體國民投下不同意票這是他對於核能那時候的表態那我們看下一頁"},{"start":2395.762,"end":2423.257,"text":"到了今年3月21號態度轉變為要啟動核能要啟動這個核能的重啟程序他考量用電成長跟減碳要啟動這個核電重啟程序我們再看下一頁並且他同時保證他強調說電力供電無虞他說在沒有啟用核電的情況下每日的備轉能量率有10%以上"},{"start":2427.228,"end":2453.77,"text":"結果過了一個月我們看下一頁到了4月21號他開始改口了說能源供應遇到困難要考量核電才一個月的時間他就轉向了那我們再看下一頁他這個政策在七個月內反轉去年的8月13他呼籲全民投不同意不同意這個核三的重啟七個月後轉向說可以重啟"},{"start":2455.838,"end":2483.231,"text":"我們再看下一頁我只想問賴清的總統如果核電是不可行的那為什麼七個月後會變成可行如果核電是必要的那為什麼當初要呼籲全民否決然後你在3月21號強調不用核電也可以供電無虞結果一個月後又改口我們陷入能源困局必須重新考量核電"},{"start":2485.629,"end":2508.59,"text":"那我來看下一頁我來跟大家說為什麼我說他對於電力是完全的無知因為如果他說任何時候我們來看這個月4月5號我們的倍轉容量率最低來到6.21%這個其實不是單一偶發事件我們再往下一頁看"},{"start":2511.175,"end":2538.743,"text":"今年其實有五次我們的備酒能量率來到5到6%並不是政府所講的10%以上那我們再看下一頁很多時候我們的我們都是靠台積電就是護國神山來救援他怎麼救援他他要配合台電降載那當然他不可能把產線關掉他就得用他的柴油發電機來去發電"},{"start":2541.445,"end":2569.603,"text":"台積電有非常多的柴油發電機它過去5年有27次被迫降載總共柴油發電機大概發了5700次這個供電的問題其實會困擾到我們的科技大廠也不只台積電有許多的科技大廠都配合降載或是用他們的發電機包括去年我知道某個鋼鐵大廠就降載了28次我們再看下一頁我講一下我們的國安危機 國安風險"},{"start":2571.974,"end":2595.341,"text":"我們目前台灣有51%的天然氣就是我們的發電靠51%靠天然氣我們的天然氣安全存量大概是11天那我們每一個禮拜有6艘LNG船要靠岸去補天然氣每次作業時間大概12小時如果風速大於12秒的風速他就得停止不能不能夠去補天然氣"},{"start":2596.741,"end":2623.85,"text":"所以如果你今天有一個颱風或是有一些海上的一些封鎖的狀況你只要11天你就斷氣了這是一個國安的風險再來是成本波動很劇烈我們看到這次卡達的問題就是天然氣船過不來我們三分之一的天然氣是從卡達過來的結果我們要從其他地方調度我們一艘LNG船要多花10億20艘就是200億"},{"start":2625.902,"end":2654.043,"text":"就是成本波動很大那我們再看下一頁淨零轉型是這幾年我們的政府一直在強調的事情賴清德一直講這件事但是其實他目標其實都跳票然後也是在掏空我們台灣就是讓我們納稅人付更多的成本我們看下一頁我先講一下過去政府"},{"start":2655.229,"end":2678.137,"text":"給人民的承諾是20%的一個再生能源佔比那這個在2025年已經跳票了就是在2025年我們看到那時候的目標只達成13.1%那他又改口說今年2026年11月會再達成但是現在看起來也是跳票就是一再的跳票那我們再看下一頁"},{"start":2679.841,"end":2706.631,"text":"我們這10年來我們的風光購電的支出成長了19.4倍主要關鍵點是在110年我們給了超高的合約這超高價合約所以出現了一個死亡交叉我們再看下一頁我們台灣的光電跟風電成本跟亞洲其他各國比"},{"start":2708.117,"end":2727.402,"text":"我們比菲律賓比中國大陸比南韓比越南比泰國都來得貴這是除了你成本貴之外我們還有許多的隱形成本包括我們台電要付出輔助服務成本電網建置費用這造成台電的財務惡化"},{"start":2729.673,"end":2756.708,"text":"那台電虧損之後怎麼辦?他又要國庫來撥補也就是要立法院去同意去撥補他這變成是惡性循環就是財務黑洞的部分那我們來看下一頁他現在變成一個畸形的結構我們的風光發電占比12%的占比發電量但是他要占台電的發過電成本20%20.6%"},{"start":2759.81,"end":2780.529,"text":"我們今年台電預計購電量 風光購電量312億度卻要支出1704億一度大概5.46塊我跟大家報告 明年還會更多明年還會更多因為這是一個長約 我們看下一頁"},{"start":2783.311,"end":2808.518,"text":"台電10年的風光支出增加19倍看到的是什麼政策承諾跳票只有更慘的是今年第一季中火的燒煤總量比去年還增加這哪有淨零轉型這有永續台灣嗎我們讓數據來講話我們看下一頁今年第一季Q1中火的用煤量因為只有中火的用煤量有公布"},{"start":2810.031,"end":2833.334,"text":"增加了16.2%今年前100天比去年同期多燒了36.5萬噸這就是公開資訊大家可以去台電廣場查100天裡面有74天超越去年這是超前部署提早先燒一些煤可能知道天然氣漲價或是說天然氣供應會有問題我們看下一頁"},{"start":2835.752,"end":2861.746,"text":"更糟糕的一件事是調度上出現矛盾理論上空品越差我們的煤要燒更少結果它燒更多今年一到三月有十三天空品不良這十三天中火非但沒有減煤反而是燒更多這上面有我就就大家就看一下我有提供資料給委員我們再看下一頁"},{"start":2865.598,"end":2882.591,"text":"我並不是說空污完全中火造成而是說這是一個調度矛盾最後我總結一下我們需要的是誠實的能源政策不是政策承諾跳票又荷包縮水電力調度在空污減煤上又出現矛盾"},{"start":2884.278,"end":2902.199,"text":"一個能源政策是國家生存的基石結果你一個總統對於電力政策反覆無常昨天說往東今天說往西身為一個領導者昭令細改這是對於能源政策穩定最直接的否定也讓我們執行單位跟民眾無所適從"},{"start":2903.837,"end":2930.336,"text":"我後面還有提供一些資料,請委員大家參考一下那今天的報告就到此,謝謝大家好,謝謝楊家法發起人的發言,謝謝您向全院委員會報告,現在又來了王安祥委員、蔡春籌委員一起加入我們今天全院委員會的聽證會接下來我們請黃景堂教授,請發言"},{"start":2941.603,"end":2964.39,"text":"我們院長 各位委員 各位先進 各位媒體界的朋友 大家早安 大家好很榮幸參加這個聽證會 很榮幸因為這是對賴總統提起彈劾的聽證會我個人是抱著非常榮幸受邀 那也非常感到嚴肅嚴謹"},{"start":2966.831,"end":2990.133,"text":"那麼知識體大,要認真的一個態度。那我這報告有個書面,那大概我一下就照著書面講。那第一個部分我想談一下彈盒的性質與要件,因為這個是根本嘛,到底彈盒是在做什麼,那它需要什麼樣的要件。那我們彈盒它基本上是個"},{"start":2991.875,"end":3013.252,"text":"司法的程序是司法程序它是個judicial的程序而不是如罷免或是說倒閣它是屬於政治的political action這兩者是不一樣的我們彈劾一旦成立憲法法案判決成立那就去職"},{"start":3014.313,"end":3019.159,"text":"所以他是一槍斃命的,一擊斃命的。對於彈劾案提起的認識用法,這個事實到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3031.734,"end":3055.471,"text":"尤其是哪一個行為或哪些行為該當哪幾個法條憲法法條或是違反的法律這個要講清楚而且如果我們參照公務員懲戒法的條文也參照德國基本法第61條有關對聯邦總統提起彈劾案"},{"start":3059.614,"end":3072.07,"text":"要件說明應該是要故意的行為違反憲法或法律的行為而且要嚴重的違反因為這是一槍斃命的"},{"start":3077.361,"end":3099.725,"text":"那民選總統是有他相當的這個選舉的過程民主正當性跟他的這個國家治理的這個權責那麼所以就是說要達到這個彈劾案的這個提起跟這個判決 拒職判決那要一個要件就是他要相當嚴重的職務違反是這個樣子"},{"start":3103.286,"end":3131.052,"text":"那就第二步進入到這個彈劾的室友那我們有兩個不同的但是這個內容相近的這個連署書那這個我要特別稱許就是說這兩份連署書的這個重點都是對這個賴總統所主導的這個葛奎 左榮泰的拒絕附屬重點"},{"start":3131.952,"end":3151.149,"text":"重兵都壓在這裡我覺得這是非常正確的我要特別講就是說至於有一份聯署書所起的其他事由要有更精確的事實、證據、數字才是能夠通得過認識用法的標準"},{"start":3159.435,"end":3170.76,"text":"例如說總統授意行政院長朱鎔泰造謠抹黑,利用司法破壞議席"},{"start":3172.621,"end":3198.321,"text":"那這個要有精確的指示那總統他要有精確的行動用詞等等這些才好來提起這個彈劾案再來比如說濫編預算放任台積電赴美投資出賣台灣關鍵產業的未來那這個也是一樣"},{"start":3199.122,"end":3211.409,"text":"我再次強調,我不是說這不可能成立,不是的,它有可能成立,但這個要在要件事實上要達到相當的說明,相關的人證、物證等等這些"},{"start":3216.491,"end":3234.378,"text":"如果說是涉及宏觀的判斷那麼這個高度不確定的法律概念那麼宏觀的那麼預測性的那麼這些的判斷或這個主事者想要裁量權的部分那麼這個是要更為慎重的"},{"start":3234.938,"end":3250.957,"text":"好,那麼我就進入到我們這個總統主導的這個葛葛季節附屬的時間我認為我們這兩份的這個談核書寫得非常好它已經就要見事實講得很清楚把它唸一下就是說呢它是在114年12月12日"},{"start":3253.7,"end":3277.834,"text":"賴總統主動邀請民進黨立法委員在民進黨中央黨部進行便當會主導該會議並於會後宣稱將採不附屬或附屬之後不執行加油行政部門做出最終決斷這一類的這個行為那麼我建議繼續加上說那麼後來我們卓榮泰這個葛奎就"},{"start":3278.755,"end":3293.465,"text":"拒絕附屬的五個法律案這個要把它寫上來一個財政收支法的修正案那國軍老舊捐贈改建條例修正案政黨及其護衛組織不當取得財產處理條例修正案衛星廣播電視修正案立法案組織法修正案"},{"start":3294.746,"end":3304.409,"text":"那麼我們這兩份彈劾的提案都特別講到嚴重性該當整個違法亂紀違法行為的嚴重性並且指出總統並沒有任何的裁量權這個是違反我們憲政的傳統慣例顛覆了民主體制跟法治國原則"},{"start":3324.415,"end":3341.909,"text":"我覺得這個是非常清楚的有關這個要件跟它的嚴重性的說明那我以下進一步做點補充第一個就是說就所涉及的憲法條文來講我們可以進一步擴張到加上所謂的比如說這個"},{"start":3343.59,"end":3370.706,"text":"我們這個宣法本文講立法院是國家最高立法機關那麼徵修條文第三條第二項講行政院要對立法院負責那對於立法院議決的法律案預算案什麼這些的如果認為有自愛難行使經總統合格後進行疑請赴議那赴議後如果經全體立法委員二分之一以上的決議立法院長應即接受該決議"},{"start":3371.987,"end":3393.9,"text":"這是清清楚楚的我們憲法上的條文那麼就是說那我進一步來講就是說就我關的憲法條文的解釋來講那麼這牽涉到這個權利分立的這個解釋就是說這個到底行政院長有沒有享有這樣的這個拒絕附屬的權利那我們講說是沒有的"},{"start":3395.461,"end":3413.781,"text":"這是涉及中央政府體制的核心那也涉及選政黨之間的這個激烈的政治攻防甚至是選舉的攻防所以就是說應取向"},{"start":3416.202,"end":3440.101,"text":"這個文藝、歷史跟體系體系就是相關條件整體來講那我們從我們憲法的這個修憲尤其在1997年修憲我們當時是固然取消六案的革會統一權但是我們事實上還是維護立法院的權責的這個尤其表現在說這個立法院對維持復議"},{"start":3442.242,"end":3457.893,"text":"不需要用三分之二舊的是三分之二那我們改成是立法院的這個二分之一的多數就可以維持原意從這些憲法相關的條文那麼而且這個網上連結到民主原則法治國原則"},{"start":3462.657,"end":3483.576,"text":"所以就是說如果有人企圖說反正你這個立法院已經想要倒閣權你倒閣你不爽你倒閣這個是蓄意的曲解我們在1997年修憲的時候我們的這個政府體制我們事實上還是維持立法院的權責是這樣"},{"start":3487.259,"end":3506.567,"text":"有人說這個不是有憲法37條講葛奎有附屬權嗎我認為說正如學界也這樣指出我們整體的體制還是維持立法院的權責他是立法最高立法機關這個時候他就是說"},{"start":3512.65,"end":3527.1,"text":"這是一個修憲的時候沒有把它一併把它精確定正的這個條文這樣子那我最後講一點最重要的就是說民進黨這樣的一個操作這個隔軌拒絕附屬它真正的意圖是什麼"},{"start":3528.583,"end":3555.721,"text":"而且這個意圖是最可悟最可遇的地方我覺得他是在這個做政治的鬥爭政治的這個選戰經營尤其當我們把他拒絕附屬到現在為止的五個法案把他看清楚那就是這樣好謝謝黃景堂教授的發言謝謝您向全委會報告現在我們又多了一位立法委員劉淑冰委員參與我們的聽證會"},{"start":3558.328,"end":3559.608,"text":"主席、院長、各位委員、各位媒體記者、女士先生"},{"start":3587.557,"end":3615.408,"text":"今天應邀出席彈劾總統的聽證會來提出證言深感人家都是慶幸我是真的心情非常沉重因為一個國家的領導人被國會來提出彈劾這是一個非常嚴肅的而且是非常重大的問題"},{"start":3616.806,"end":3630.992,"text":"那為什麼有這個結果我想這也就是要大家來思考的問題那麼我們都知道根據中華民國憲法以及憲法徵求條文"},{"start":3632.97,"end":3650.399,"text":"對監察院依照憲法本文來100條或是立法院依憲法徵修條文第4條第7項來提出彈劾總統的案子的時候呢並沒有規定要有被拒理由"},{"start":3651.913,"end":3677.745,"text":"所以說彈劾總統他這個不被拒理由立法的本意就是說明他不是用法規範的很清楚的因為總統在憲政地位上他所領導的所代表的意義是不同於一般的公務人員"},{"start":3679.226,"end":3702.998,"text":"那麼他負的責任當然也就更大了所以說我們今天來看這個問題的時候我們應該要了解彈劾總統不是說他一定要違法違法當然是可以彈劾更重要的他對於全民的"},{"start":3704.845,"end":3731.523,"text":"應付的責任他也要負責任他如果不接受這個責任的話他可能就被彈劾那麼剛剛我們林教授也提到這個憲法對總統先知就職的事實裡面的第一第一項就是要遵守憲法但是他究竟遵守憲法沒有"},{"start":3732.554,"end":3759.631,"text":"我想這一點是我們各位要了解的那麼這一次彈劾在野的國民黨民眾黨有兩個提案那麼基本上都是針對財政收支化文法修正通過之後那麼行政院依照總統的核可提出呼籲"},{"start":3761.004,"end":3788.991,"text":"被立法院否決之後呢他不照這個規定在文到10日內來公布實行那為什麼不公布實行呢總統府的意思是說啊是因為行政院長不附屬當然行政院長不附屬他要負他的法律或政治責任這是另外一個問題問題是今天"},{"start":3790.447,"end":3817.742,"text":"行政院長的任免是由總統前前規則決定的也就是說我們現在的行政院長和以前的行政院長是不一樣的一個角色和地位過去是要立法院行使同意權的所以行政院長他有他的民意基礎現在行政院長不要經過立法院來行使同意權"},{"start":3819.915,"end":3843.537,"text":"而且啊如果給他免職的時候也不必附屬各位要了解在過去行政院長免職是他本人要附屬的各位如果你有去看看過去的歷史我順便講一個孫一賢院長辭職的時候他自己有附屬"},{"start":3844.881,"end":3868.943,"text":"所以說這個是不一樣的那現在既然他可以不要經過這個護署的程序換句話說總統對行政院長是有絕對的指揮監督之權他如果意見他有不符的時候我隨時可以免職"},{"start":3870.63,"end":3884.159,"text":"所以說他不附屬那顯然就是他總統的意見不一致那就是對立當然就是應該免職何況我們剛剛幾位教授也提到"},{"start":3885.666,"end":3906.054,"text":"就殊不得了解他們在政黨內部會議裡面已經有決定就是不附屬、不公布、不執行這個策略來對抗在野政黨那就更說明他要負他的責任所以說"},{"start":3907.677,"end":3936.413,"text":"就這個它不務俗造成法律沒有辦法公布施行它嚴重的違反了憲法的規定尤其是違反憲法徵修條文修改之後的整個憲政的一個本質這一點我特別要來說明那麼我們都知道當前的情形朝野有很大的對立"},{"start":3937.864,"end":3962.442,"text":"那麼主要就是對於兩岸關係的問題現在兩岸關係的問題是非常敏感的有人又說兵兇戰危有人又說不會打仗但是不管怎麼樣我們都應該要避戰我們要怎麼來避戰有人說我們有備戰只有避戰"},{"start":3964.588,"end":3989.215,"text":"各位了解 備戰當然可能是需要但是備戰的方法更多我們現在沒有啊 有很積極的就主政黨來講 就我們政府來講啊並沒有積極的這種啊 備戰的一個策略乃至於啊 看起來呢 甚至還要巷戰這樣一個危險狀態"},{"start":3991.485,"end":4010.875,"text":"這是一個對國家領導人來講他有很大的責任要去規避的要去來預防發生的問題第二個問題就是朝野固然有對應我們普及之間"},{"start":4013.348,"end":4034.864,"text":"我們院紀之間也有很多的不同意見尤其我們都看到我們大法官很多的解釋不要說解釋本身在我們官法學者看起來很難瞭解就是他的程序都有問題連一個陳會都有問題的解釋他也認為是一個解釋這個對於我一個"},{"start":4041.735,"end":4063.585,"text":"教政治學也好 教行政法 教憲法來看的話都是混亂解釋的有一次某大報的總編輯和我一起吃飯問我說你在上課的時候一到時候問你怎麼解釋我說我就不解釋了為什麼 沒有辦法解釋啊各位想想看 一個"},{"start":4065.233,"end":4085.871,"text":"民主法治國家堅持民主價值結果搞得我們大學教授在大學沒有辦法上課混淆視聽我想這個是非常沉重的甚至我認為它是很悲哀的事情那麼剛剛提到這個厭計之間的問題憲法44條明文規定"},{"start":4091.789,"end":4100.24,"text":"有爭議的時候可以召集MG之間的來協商但是我們的總統"},{"start":4101.684,"end":4122.176,"text":"他寧願去辦一個茶話會大家到總統府喝喝茶但是他就不願意把這個這麼沉重的問題拿出來MD之間做一個協商我相信如果能夠多協商的話"},{"start":4123.337,"end":4148.117,"text":"不要說解釋的也好人事的問題都可以隱認而解今天有很多的問題它在那裡引起了很多的不愉快基本上總統應有他的責任出面去協調我想只要總統能夠多做貢獻的話"},{"start":4151.898,"end":4174.529,"text":"不要說談了案不會發生啦甚至於其他的法案的審議都可以非常順利的通過我們都知道最近有很多的傳聯有一些都是不負責任的就剛剛大家很關心的經購的問題經購的問題我們最需要的並不是要買多少的問題"},{"start":4180.063,"end":4205.276,"text":"而是要買什麼武器的問題謝謝齊俊賢教授的發言 謝謝您接下來我們請登記第五位 蔣桂美教授請發言"},{"start":4215.492,"end":4221.001,"text":"主席 各位在場的立法委員還有各位先進 大家好"},{"start":4224.918,"end":4253.84,"text":"雖然只有十分鐘但是我想事理自明我們還是可以在非常關鍵的時點讓全國的所有的人知道我們目前憲政已經崩壞到什麼樣的程度我覺得如果不及時停損我們枉為民主國家甚至連第三世界的國家都趕不上這是非常令人心痛的部分但是除了心痛我們一定要有行動"},{"start":4254.941,"end":4274.931,"text":"也就是說彈劾已經是目前法治上唯一能找到的途徑如果作為一個堂堂正正的公民然後做事憲法一直崩壞我覺得我們將來無法對後代交代無法對歷史交代"},{"start":4276.927,"end":4304.261,"text":"關鍵在於哪裡我想這個大家都非常清楚也就是說從賴總統上台之後到現在我們的憲法從來沒有真正落實甚至很多條文一清二楚但是一直被背棄憲法裡面所規定的機關都是全國最高機關這個在憲法訴訟法裡面訂得很清楚"},{"start":4305.501,"end":4325.493,"text":"最高機關之間的爭議它事實上已經不是爭議這個爭議到底是誰造成的而憲法裡面的職位非常清楚事務官是進不去的憲法裡面所有的職位都是最高機關政治任命的職位"},{"start":4326.8,"end":4345.595,"text":"那如果在目前的狀況 它是癱瘓狀況第一個 大行政而弱立法第二個 強司法而弱政治司法介入政治審查行政擴權到視國會於無物"},{"start":4350.529,"end":4367.954,"text":"在過去這幾年來賴總統上台以後我們看到了大罷免我們看到大罷免之後一事無成安然無恙立委照樣運作而民進黨毀憲亂政"},{"start":4372.008,"end":4389.681,"text":"但是仍然不放棄後面接續的是不斷的復議高達八案的復議復議有一個非常基本的憲政原理什麼原理呢你要知道我們並不是純粹總統制的國家純粹總統制的國家"},{"start":4393.396,"end":4412.486,"text":"国会国务卿格源是不能到国会的他没有办法在国会提案所以他也没有所谓的施政方针施政报告提到国会然后接受国会备询的这种沟通管道因为他没有这种管道所以我们给他复议的机会"},{"start":4413.146,"end":4426.092,"text":"也就是說三讀通過國會的法案透過復議讓他去表議實際上他的復議應該是他第一次的表議機會但是我們不是啊"},{"start":4427.136,"end":4452.082,"text":"我們閣員 閣魁帶著閣員到國會甚至不高興還可以不來甚至憲訴法113 憲判制第九號大法官還做了一個莫名其妙的釋憲也就是把國會的權萎縮到比釋制585號還要倒退我們到底是什麼樣的國家司法介入政治審查"},{"start":4453.342,"end":4475.819,"text":"而立法尊严不断的被打压可是我们必须非常清楚我们的副意是格源可以到立法院可以提施政方针可以提施政报告也可以备询他有充分表达意见的机会而表达意见之后到立法院三读通过的法案"},{"start":4476.806,"end":4505.222,"text":"他憑什麼還可以復議我會認為我們憲法這一條已經是長年來對於行政權做足了保障的一條他的復議等於是第二次表達他不接受的機會結果第二次表達他不接受以後他還失敗總算憲法守住了最後的門檻增修條文非常清楚的規定復議失敗應即接受"},{"start":4507.41,"end":4520.452,"text":"這個應是強制規定他除了接受別無選擇因為這種憲法的規範已經給行政權非常大的保障了可是他還可以不接受"},{"start":4522.099,"end":4541.505,"text":"所以我們八次的復印非常清楚政府應急接受但他不接受他最後衍生出來兩個分支啊一個叫做什麼一個叫做往司法院去丟啊由大法官憲法法庭去解決政治責任的問題"},{"start":4543.41,"end":4564.64,"text":"而憲法法庭沒有遵守憲法簽譯的原則他不但受理而且有兩案非常重要的兩案第一案是113憲判之第九我剛已經提過那是針對立法院職權行使法跟刑法所謂的國會改革法他做了大幅限縮國會的權限"},{"start":4567.128,"end":4575.551,"text":"好 第二案是哪一案 第二案是114的憲判制第一號它針對的是什麼 是憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法 114的憲判制第一號更荒謬的是五人大法官來做評議 請問憑什麼我們不只上課沒有辦法教 我們甚至無臉見"},{"start":4593.121,"end":4617.845,"text":"國人如果我們今天不守住最後一道防線我們的國會尊嚴我們知識分子的尊嚴我們所有愛國情操的老百姓何以自處憲政是有底線的憲法是最後的守護神而在這個守護神的護衛之下我們有最後的責任"},{"start":4619.426,"end":4646.572,"text":"所以剛才講的這兩號的憲判制實際上非常清楚行政權負義失敗他不接受他往司法丟丟到大法官只剩五人總統還可以不提名繼續五人來評議判決那現在115已經有第三號判決出現請問第四號第五號總統仍然繼續不提名大法官嗎"},{"start":4649.376,"end":4676.922,"text":"總統的人事提名權是他憲法上的責任他必須知道他的責任所在他的憲法責任他是國家元首他把自己當成機關首長所以我們在打訴訟的時候113憲判之第九號總統可以跳出來告立法院史無前例"},{"start":4677.975,"end":4695.025,"text":"世界各國荒謬至極的案例總統如果可以告立法院他可以告任何機關他是國家元首嘛他是公清便是主而不自覺所以我們在"},{"start":4696.967,"end":4716.943,"text":"過去的一直發展到今天我們非常清楚這個模式甚至出現了最後的不公佈不附屬連往憲法法庭丟都懶得再丟了乾脆就不公佈不附屬讓立法院的聲音全部消滅掉請問憑什麼"},{"start":4720.319,"end":4744.438,"text":"立法院在宪法里面是国家最高的民意机关最高的立法机关而最高的民意立法机关不受尊重请问何以自称为民主国家不公布不附属明显违反了宪法的37条宪法里面相关的条文一清二楚"},{"start":4747.956,"end":4769.069,"text":"72條這些條文這麼清楚的情況之下而總統拒絕適用那不用彈劾請各位先進告訴我們還有什麼途徑所以我們非常清楚今天憲政產生了有史以來的大當機"},{"start":4771.078,"end":4798.432,"text":"除非重新开机否则我们国会会不断的被矮化下去我们的武权会不断的失衡我们的权责制衡分立从585号过去大法官499号不断的耳提念命告诉我们民主国家法治国的最基本原则请问是什么是权力分立制衡我们今天出现了一个独大的行政权弱化的国会"},{"start":4799.352,"end":4826.768,"text":"介入政治的司法權請問我們到底還要怎麼樣運作下去所以今天彈劾與法有據也是我們最後不得已的手段而且它是核顯的而且是對得起憲政良心的謝謝謝謝蔣貴美教授發言 謝謝您接下來我們請登記第六位我們李勝峰副主席請發言"},{"start":4853.748,"end":4870.201,"text":"賴總統面對彈劾他說他坦坦當當我們說立法院彈劾他正正當當院長在座的委員各位學者專家們"},{"start":4872.032,"end":4893.335,"text":"當人民不再相信總統承諾的時候當父母擔心孩子被送上戰場的時候當薪水追擊承擔低薪又擔心失業的時候當經營者看著台積電被逼遷到美國正無能為力的時候"},{"start":4894.335,"end":4922.214,"text":"当传统产业面临的困境政府无心扶持无力协助的时候当宪政体制被总统及其执政团队无情践踏的时候记住人民在心中已经把你谈得了罢免掉了宪法的门槛或许可以保住你的大位但人民已经不需要你的"},{"start":4923.447,"end":4947.376,"text":"今天我有幸接受邀请 作证花言我支持谭乐主要目的是让台湾人要看清楚一个空心运转的政府加上毁宪乱政又无能够的总统已经误划给人民安全的承诺安定的保障及生命财产的维护"},{"start":4948.581,"end":4973.695,"text":"内总统你已经无法赢得人民对你的尊重就算你还坐在那个位置上只留下了民主律师上最负面的注脚以下是我认为你必须被弹劾的四大理由第一知美卖台违背人民的信徒侵占滥用人民的资产"},{"start":4975.947,"end":4992.942,"text":"總統是國家人民資產的最高信託管理人不是擁有者現在這位管理人正在違背人民的信託掏空家產只為了保有以美堅若磐石關係的息命"},{"start":4994.11,"end":5011.827,"text":"不論是多麼無底洞的天價經過核心產業的以美及五百億美元的投資美國這是國力的大失血不算經過就算那五千億美元的投資"},{"start":5013.663,"end":5039.108,"text":"平均溢價2300萬人每年要壺單兩萬一千塊的美元折扣台幣63萬一家四口每家的門口被掛著250萬的帳單八國聯金庚子賠款腐敗不堪的滿清末代王朝每年也只是讓人家分擔一兩的白銀"},{"start":5040.342,"end":5058.897,"text":"就被歷史永遠定在處子駕駛相較之下金門潭和賴總統剛剛好而已一點都不為過你受託應該守護的護台神山台積電已經成為美國產業的地基"},{"start":5060.137,"end":5089.094,"text":"人民委托你管理的国家资产本来未经人民的同意被卖了台湾人民的未来其奉承了美国这就是背信这就是侵占总统你应该是人民资产的首富神结果你却成为美国的搬运工你当然失去人民授头管理国家的正当性所以总统被弹劾是恰恰好而已"},{"start":5089.926,"end":5112.973,"text":"第二 毀線亂台 憲政的癌變 必須要開刀 必須要化療前面幾位寫者專家已著墨甚多 我不必再重複我只簡單的總結 立了法 折了議 不執行 不務實 不公告 八字的物議 否決 不下台"},{"start":5114.879,"end":5134.292,"text":"憲法的審議不合程序也無所謂總統不依法協調、立法、行政、司法、厭禁的糾紛反而縱容違法亂紀、違憲亂紀支持當上任的在野立法委員進行的大罷免"},{"start":5136.289,"end":5149.994,"text":"这已经不是华丽间接的争议这是民主宪政的癌变癌细胞正在蔓延吞噬着原本健康顺利运作的宪政监督制衡的体制"},{"start":5150.774,"end":5175.212,"text":"如果再做出不管,積累40年台灣引以為傲的民主憲政,必然癌變而死亡。今天,別府選擇必須斷然的手術,割除癌細胞,化療,去除癌病。彈劾賴清德,就是拯救被癌變攻擊的因緣一席的民主憲政。"},{"start":5178.186,"end":5197.152,"text":"在關鍵之際我們必須手速化了當總統把憲法私產化為所欲為把公權黨產化黨國不分立法院代表人民告訴他國家信民不信賴"},{"start":5198.956,"end":5211.811,"text":"第三 抗中害台抗中掛買再多的武器不是備戰 而是傳送的下一代賴總統一直以中共威脅國安為名天價經過"},{"start":5213.786,"end":5228.254,"text":"抗中保台事實上沒有美國的支撐抗中是假的保台也不存在不幸歷史告訴我們強權不可靠美國會落跑因應無方台灣會變成孤島"},{"start":5229.435,"end":5249.83,"text":"這不是危言聳聽因為全球所有的國際觀察者都認為五月中旬的席川會台灣是重要的議題而且是川普在美中交易中最大最有效的籌碼所以美方正在動員各方的勢力要在"},{"start":5251.031,"end":5267.716,"text":"5月中旬以前通過計額的經過預算因為美方及金融產業非常的清楚習仲偉之後一切都會改變但我們還在傻傻的配合美國的金融七手經費"},{"start":5270.177,"end":5294.055,"text":"賴總統你做好五月份中旬美中大和解大捨一之下台灣的應應對策了嗎或者你還在自我感覺良好地認為只要互出了保護會美國能夠支持你的抗中從川普的口中會說出什麼樣的話誰也不敢保證但一旦說出了台灣該怎麼辦"},{"start":5297.474,"end":5312.334,"text":"賴總統台灣人民把生命財產委託了給你你能保留掉我們嗎下面是我的三個假設假設川普說我與好朋友習近平完成了一項最偉大的協議"},{"start":5313.576,"end":5341.779,"text":"未來G2的合作會很愉快假若川普說一個中國是美國信手不會改變的政策台灣關係法本就是歷史的安排現在中美已經達成協議一切很快會回到正常假若川普說美國過去現在未來都不支持台灣獨立北京自1973年起就是中國唯一合法的代表"},{"start":5343.052,"end":5358.398,"text":"大家要認清這個現實台海永遠不會有戰爭我們不怕萬一我們不怕一萬就怕萬一談到你是要提醒你你有沒有做好台灣迎接這個挑戰的準備第四個 三民後台"},{"start":5366.96,"end":5373.493,"text":"一页独大的环容假象是年轻人希望的杀手总统你正义"},{"start":5374.758,"end":5390.228,"text":"冰冷亮麗的市值掩蓋了基層的哀嚎台灣面臨的一夜獨大百頁繼承的畸形斷層當執政黨吹熄GDP台股的股票有幾萬點的時候那是僅佔台灣1%的科技新貴與相關產業的資本家投資者的狂歡與其他90%以上的人無關傳產沉淪"},{"start":5403.817,"end":5418.226,"text":"薪水低就業難希望渺茫成為社會大多數人的常態當努力工作換不到尊嚴當薪水永遠追不到房價通膨的時候乾脆炒股去了獨一把把"},{"start":5420.199,"end":5447.747,"text":"股市的賭場找一個明天絕望的社會這是一個對台灣年輕人最不公道的社會更荒謬的你願意投資五千億到美國卻不願意投資回台灣讓我們的基礎建設讓我們的地方建設有足夠的資源你用天價的經費卻不願意轉回到台灣讓我們的社會福利讓我們的社會住宅有了出路"},{"start":5448.387,"end":5449.988,"text":"好 謝謝李勝峰副主席的發言 謝謝"},{"start":5477.395,"end":5487.213,"text":"向前院委會報告我們出席的人員已經發言完畢休息十分鐘之後我們要進行本院委員的詢問謝謝各位參與的學者專家我們現在休息"},{"start":6117.545,"end":6137.681,"text":"報告全院委員會 我們繼續開會進行本院委員的詢問向詢問委員說明依規定聽證會記錄要當場閱覽及簽名因此每位委員詢問完畢之後工作人員立刻會彙整記錄製作完成之後會提供給所有詢問的委員當場確認以及簽名"},{"start":6142.557,"end":6145.75,"text":"第一位 我們請翁曉琳委員詢問時間十分鐘"},{"start":6163.451,"end":6177.087,"text":"主席各位先進在場的專家學者還有全體國人媒體先生們大家好先前聆聽了專家學者們的報告發言之後其實本席感慨萬千因為我們知道從民國76年"},{"start":6178.488,"end":6203.055,"text":"解嚴之後到現在將近快滿40年了那麼我國歷經了李登輝馬英九蔡英文等等還有陳水扁等四位的總統執政再且不論他們的功過至少從來沒有一位總統是像賴清德一樣是拒絕履行憲法義務那麼挑戰憲法紅線賴清德他沒收立法權"},{"start":6204.295,"end":6229.724,"text":"拒絕公布立法院三讀通過的法律那麼也拒絕一線來提名大法官故意的讓憲法法庭癱瘓所以我們知道我們原來有15個人的15位大法官組成的憲法法庭現在變成是違憲五人大法官組成的憲法法庭賴清德他是真以為他自己一手就可以沒收了立法權和司法權嗎"},{"start":6231.605,"end":6246.927,"text":"賴清德任命的行政院院長卓榮泰他不附屬法律不執行法律不依法逼入預算那麼也不提名NCC的委員的人事案甚至他之前還不打算公布中選會委員的人事令這個如果不是賴清德授意"},{"start":6248.174,"end":6261.896,"text":"就是執行賴清德的這個意志所以本席基本上是不相信卓榮泰是有天大的膽子敢公然的去違反他老闆賴清德的意志那麼甚至騎到賴清德的頭上去做壞事"},{"start":6263.277,"end":6288.742,"text":"所以賴清德不要把不公布法律的責任推給卓榮泰如果他不認同卓榮泰的做法他大可以把卓榮泰換掉但是賴清德有嗎事實上並沒有本席不客氣的說賴清德卓榮泰兩個人就是一搭一唱同理為奸但是賴清德的惡性更高他違法失職的情節是更為明顯重大"},{"start":6290.298,"end":6297.436,"text":"還記得賴清德在之前的總統選舉辯論會上面說中華民國憲法是災難那麼去年他在團結時講的時候也講"},{"start":6299.574,"end":6324.101,"text":"民主不是表決贏就可以喔不是喔所以從賴清德這兩年的言行表現就可以知道他基本上就是要有意的要毀滅要蹂躪中華民國憲法他正是不做滿腦子的就在搞破壞企圖透過選擇性的不公布法律或公布法律來掏空憲政制度那麼基本上賴清德基本上就是個憲政殺手"},{"start":6325.666,"end":6338.553,"text":"由此可以知道就是其實在這邊本性很擔心的就是說賴清德他基本上就是想搞比軍事戒嚴還要恐怖的憲政戒嚴他想當台版的隱習院"},{"start":6341.074,"end":6357.243,"text":"軍事戒嚴我們知道還要有軍隊要有命令要公告然後呢憲法可能會暫時停止適用但是今天在台灣發生的事我們根本沒有宣布戒嚴啊也沒有停止憲法條文的適用但是國會通過的法律竟然可以被凍結"},{"start":6358.823,"end":6371.714,"text":"這表示什麼就是台灣的民主形式上看起來在運作但是實質上已經憲政停止運作了這就是最危險的一個狀態也就是我們這邊講的無聲的戒嚴"},{"start":6374.316,"end":6390.185,"text":"賴清德說要立法院不要搞彈劾要做些正事不要讓國家運作卡卡的可是本席要說的是就是因為賴清德不做正事竟搞破壞都快要把台灣的民主憲政給卡死了"},{"start":6390.885,"end":6419.557,"text":"所以我們今天才要做這項非常重要而且有意義的正事就是對賴清德總統提出彈劾案我們要留下歷史紀錄表達廣大的民意對賴清德表示國會踐踏憲政民主的不滿與抗議好 那接下來我想要邀請林騰耀教授時間暫停對 不好意思 謝謝主席那麼我想邀請林騰耀教授還有黃請堂教授"},{"start":6420.596,"end":6443.911,"text":"歡迎林教授跟黃教授請兩位這邊有些問題想要就教兩位教授不是質詢跟備詢 是請教是用請教答詢非常謝謝兩位教授今天在百忙之中來到立法院來進行對於韓何賴先德總統的"},{"start":6446.726,"end":6473.045,"text":"我想請問兩位教授就是請問在您們的印象當中有沒有哪個國家的總統是曾經在非常短的時間三個月內完全不公佈法律而且有沒有哪個國家的總統是曾經有拒絕提名大法官甚至容忍包庇他的行政革魁可以違法濫權這邊可不可以請林德堯教授請講你的問題能不能大聲一點我沒有聽得很清楚"},{"start":6474.738,"end":6503.941,"text":"好我再講一遍就是請問在您的印象當中有沒有哪一個國家的總統是曾經有拒絕公布法律的而且在非常短的時間裡面拒絕公布法律沒有沒有總統像他這個樣子嘛就你把全世界的憲政史拿來翻一翻吧對所以也沒有哪位總統是拒絕提名大法官的吧除非拿那個德國的希特勒來比一比可能還可以其他大概沒有這個樣子"},{"start":6505.12,"end":6521.971,"text":"在中華民國的憲政史上也看不到賴清德做這些事情其他總統也沒有做這些事情包括阿扁也沒有這個樣子阿扁也沒有當時拒絕提名大法官"},{"start":6524.376,"end":6550.027,"text":"陳水扁總統當時沒有提名大法官嗎也沒有嗎那個沒有吧大家可以看到這個毀憲亂政的現象在賴清德這裡是最明顯的陳水扁也是少數總統但是賴清德是少數壓霸的總統"},{"start":6551.766,"end":6580.063,"text":"好 謝謝林老師其實本席在之前剛剛有提到就是我最擔心的就是賴清德會不會搞憲政戒嚴那這邊想請教黃錦棠教授就是如果說以現在賴清德的這樣的做法他可能主導行政院長不附屬然後他也不公布法律他也不把行政院院長狀態給換掉未來有沒有可能會導致會變成像是憲政戒嚴的這種狀況"},{"start":6581.205,"end":6582.795,"text":"整個台灣的憲法就停止適用"},{"start":6585.416,"end":6611.743,"text":"就是說他現在的這些的行為就是說隨時提起復議啦那麼這個葛奎就拒絕附屬啦或甚至這個法律案這個已經生效後這個拒絕執行啦等等這些喔那麼那這些是我們可以說是違憲違法的行為喔那麼"},{"start":6612.844,"end":6614.95,"text":"至於說他會不會走到這個"},{"start":6616.703,"end":6644.297,"text":"這個戒嚴那戒嚴有戒嚴的那個程序以及我們有戒嚴法作為規範的依據那麼就是說他要這個立法院可以在一定的時間內來來追認這樣子所以立法院上是有一個這個制衡的機制那麼另外就是從國際比較來講就是說如果蓄意那麼這個以這個國安的理由等等這些那像飲食業這個樣子那麼來"},{"start":6647.899,"end":6662.587,"text":"發動戒嚴這樣的一個策略行動事實上可能是得不償失的好 謝謝 那麼請教林教授您會不會認為說有可能會這個發音我都聽不清楚不曉得是聲音的關係還是怎樣我沒有聽懂你"},{"start":6663.627,"end":6683.832,"text":"妳要發的問題我的意思是講說以賴清德現在的這種做法未來有沒有可能台灣會走上所謂的像是憲政戒嚴也就是整個的憲法我們的法律都被凍結因為現在他沒有辦法這個發音有問題沒有辦法聽得很清楚"},{"start":6690.877,"end":6706.868,"text":"本先生很擔心未來會不會出現台版隱形月賴清德的狀況賴清德可能形式上他不搞軍事戒嚴但是他透過他不公佈法律而且他也容忍"},{"start":6708.342,"end":6730.512,"text":"卓榮泰他不附屬法律甚至不依法行政那麼讓台灣變成憲政整個的我們的憲政秩序就進入到一個完全無法運作停擺的一個狀況這是本席非常擔心的那麼還有就是說這邊要請教黃老師的就是這個我們知道憲法徵修條文裡面有講到"},{"start":6732.796,"end":6745.676,"text":"對於總統在我們憲法第72條你有講到總統應於10日公佈法律您認為這個應公佈法律的這個應他到底是總統的義務還是這是他的裁量權"},{"start":6746.925,"end":6763.436,"text":"我認為這是他的義務他不享有裁量權因為我們是可以說是權力分立底下我們這個五權我們是立法院擁有國家最高的立法權那麼總統不能實質審查決定要不要公布這樣"},{"start":6764.176,"end":6783.072,"text":"他頂多 我說在德國法大概只能簽入意見所以這個法案有一些爭議那就這樣 但是還是要公佈那公佈讓下面的程序比如說復議的程序啦申請到憲法法庭這個裁判的這個程序能夠進行這樣子那我再講一句就是說我們會不會走到這個憲政的這個獨裁憲政界我認為說"},{"start":6786.295,"end":6808.404,"text":"我們要知道我們台灣百姓是善良的 溫柔的但是也是對民主有非常大的信念這從大罷免好 謝謝翁曉琳委員發言謝謝兩位教授的說明好 謝謝"},{"start":6813.693,"end":6825.55,"text":"補充介紹初期委員我們現在有林倩琦委員跟徐宇貞委員接下來我們請登記第二位邱惠如委員請發言"},{"start":6836.826,"end":6849.585,"text":"院長還有各位專家學者還有各位與會的委員先進大家好那有請氣候先鋒者聯盟楊家法發起人麻煩請楊發起人說名"},{"start":6861.495,"end":6877.122,"text":"楊發起人您好那我想我是一個政治素人也是一個立院的菜鳥那今天站在這個史上第一次總統被彈劾的聽證會心中百感交集不知道是要覺得榮幸還是覺得悲哀"},{"start":6877.842,"end":6900.003,"text":"那我想總統的施政作為如果不是倒行逆施荒腔走板我想我們國會是不會輕易啟動彈劾的那剛在您的說明過程當中我們也知道過去10年台電的支出飆漲19倍那我想淨零轉型呢已經跳票了再生能源撐不起場面"},{"start":6900.683,"end":6904.748,"text":"風電 風光的發電量只佔全國的發電12%但是支出卻佔台電發電購電成本的20.6%我想風光的支出卻沒有風光的績效"},{"start":6916.803,"end":6942.898,"text":"核電關了燃煤機組開了我想錯誤的能源政策真的衝擊我們國人的健康電網韌性越來越弱電網韌性電網韌性我們沒有看到韌性只看到韌性的小動物出來幫我們背鍋那我想錯誤的能源政策真的比貪污還可怕那我想除了比貪污更可怕的之外除了"},{"start":6943.678,"end":6969.126,"text":"比錯誤的政策更可怕之外的問題還有這個政府滿口謊言粉飾太平還有操作對立所以剛您有一些指控我想指控是歷歷在目那我想我想這些指控並不是空穴來風也不是憑空的捏造那我想請問你政府的數據指出說我們的備轉容量率都在10%以上您說只有6%請問您有證據嗎"},{"start":6973.066,"end":7001.087,"text":"謝謝委員那我的回答是說我們可以去google全天備轉容量全天備轉容量這個網站他可以去收集所有台電的整天的備轉容量率那當然政府的公開的數據是只有指出日間風但是實際上台灣最危險的時候是在傍晚太陽下山之後開始一直到七點半左右"},{"start":7002.573,"end":7013.241,"text":"所以其實政府只講好聽的給你好看的美化的數據他危險的數據他不會跟你講那我們其實在今年4月"},{"start":7014.161,"end":7040.584,"text":"然後在其實今年1到3月也很多次大概5次去年大概有20次就是被轉能量率來到黃燈跟橘燈之間就是大概6到7%上下並不是像政府講的說有10%到15%那這個都可以有網路上都可以查的那我們應該要看的是每天的最低點而不是看白天尖峰的最低點這是我要強調的"},{"start":7041.704,"end":7064.793,"text":"了解那我另外想請教您我們的卓榮泰院長在4月13號有提到說我們的天然氣是無雨的結果過了三天我們的鞏明新部長卻說為了因應天然氣的調度所以要開啟麥寮的電廠請問您覺得這只是單純的調度嗎還是有能源欠缺的問題呢不知您的看法為何他們應該是在做"},{"start":7065.686,"end":7087.583,"text":"超前部署啦但是其實也不只是台塑賣了其實更早之前你可以看到今年一到三月中火台中火力電廠它燃煤的用量這一百天有七十四天都超越去年的同期表示在台塑賣了之前中火已經先多燒煤了"},{"start":7089.014,"end":7111.865,"text":"這表示我們的能源政策整個是錯誤的那你遇到一個卡達的天然氣的問題你馬上就得要去趕快調貨這個其實是很很不好的一件事情了解那我另外想跟您請教因為河山河山停業之後我們的政府一直宣稱說並沒有缺電台灣沒有缺電你覺得這是事實嗎"},{"start":7114.531,"end":7135.638,"text":"他說沒有缺電可是你去看過去這幾年如果你沒有缺電為什麼還要台積電用他們的發電機因為台電可能電不夠了他希望台積電能夠降載可是我們知道台積電不可能為了你去停掉產線這損失太大了他們只用他們的發電機"},{"start":7136.96,"end":7160.92,"text":"你過去五年台積電的發電機總共發了5700次這只是台積電而已你還有其他的科技大廠都是用發電機如果你電真的夠為什麼要用發電機用民間企業的發電機在幫忙發所以這個很明顯了解 那我想再請教您就是為了粉飾太平台電的基層花了多少人力 花了多少物力"},{"start":7162.9,"end":7181.056,"text":"我們其實可以看到最近因為也不是最近 這幾年啦 這幾年我們的電廠的大修的期程都被要求壓縮也許本來四十幾天的都壓縮 你到三十幾天就要把它大修要完成 要趕快上線因為很吃力 那也看到很多已經"},{"start":7182.23,"end":7209.335,"text":"已經除役的機組沒有操作許可的機組他也是叫他用緊急的名義什麼名義定期測試的名義包括前幾天4月23號興達的燃煤機組4號機也是用定期測試上來他都已經50年了都已經除役了為什麼還要定期測試還要多燒煤這一點都不經濟而且也是一個污染"},{"start":7210.421,"end":7233.632,"text":"了解 那我想再跟您請教再生能源初期成本會高但是隨著技術的成熟會下降請問你認同這樣的說法嗎我講一下 我基本上是認同但是我們有一個問題我們看到為什麼我們現在我們的風電我們的光電的採購的成本"},{"start":7235.024,"end":7263.796,"text":"比越南比韓國比菲律賓比泰國都還來得貴更比中國大陸貴因為我們在2010年我們簽訂了一個很超乎行情的一個合約就是高價的合約你離岸逢電一度電那時候要5.8塊一簽就20年你當然變成造成後面台電的一個嚴重的一個財政的包袱然後也變成是一個沒辦法你現在就是這樣子就是一個高的電價"},{"start":7264.994,"end":7291.281,"text":"了解那我另外想請教你中火的燃煤總量提升那是因為今年的用電量增加嗎你認同這樣的說法嗎我們看到3月的話的用電量是大概比去年多1.19%的用電成長我認為如果你真的供電充裕你所有10%的備轉容量你何必為了這一%的成長"},{"start":7292.611,"end":7307.135,"text":"去多燒那些燃煤你不是說有什麼風光嗎不是說我們的供電充裕嗎其實沒有不一定了解那我最後想跟您請教就是台積電他啟動發電機請問這是契約內的電力調度嗎如果這是契約內的電力調度請問這樣算缺電嗎"},{"start":7316.442,"end":7327.901,"text":"就我的了解台積電沒有跟台電有簽任何續量反映或續量競價的合約他完全是一個人情的請託或是台電去拜託他"},{"start":7328.801,"end":7354.258,"text":"降載那他不得不不得不去啟用他的柴油發電機那我個人是很認為這樣是很不妥的你今天叫許多科技大廠去使用他們的柴油發電機這也有空污排放的問題也沒有人去注意到這件事情那這個對於他們整個產線也是會有電力供應穩定的問題所以我覺得這個只是一個美化數據或是說政府不願意說出實話的一個做法"},{"start":7355.796,"end":7376.852,"text":"了解謝謝我們洋發起人的說明那我想從你的說明當中真的讓我們聽的真的心驚膽顫而且甚至是痛心疾首就是我們國家的一個能源政策既然是政府這麼無腦的然後胡亂作為那呈現在我們眼前的一個能源政策真的是"},{"start":7377.992,"end":7406.32,"text":"燃煤量大增讓人民用電用廢發電做出一個犧牲做出一個健康的犧牲我想錯誤的能源政策不只會擴大我們的財務黑洞也會擴大我們國家的一個安全的一個危機再生能源的政策也會從人民的口袋掏錢然後也會破壞我們國家的韌性請問一下楊發起人你認同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":7407.073,"end":7425.984,"text":"我認同完全認同那我想我們的政府不應該在操作對立也不應該在內耗我們應該是理性務實科學的去面對我們的能源政策就如同剛我說的能源轉型這個已經變成是一個口號"},{"start":7427.084,"end":7444.456,"text":"當口號變成的是一個掠奪我想受害的是人民的荷包受害的是國家的財務受害的是國家的安全所以我們在呼籲這裡在呼籲政府我們用理性、科學、務實的態度來因應能源政策以上說明謝謝大家"},{"start":7452.375,"end":7472.563,"text":"接下來我們請登記第三號王玉明委員發言羅志強委員請準備謝謝院長我們是不是有請今天出席的專家學者黃景堂教授紀俊成教授還有蔣桂美教授三位我們因為硬體設備"},{"start":7474.441,"end":7487.775,"text":"三位正好 對不起我以為行政院長還在 沒傳過來麻煩請黃教授 紀教授 張教授因為我們的硬體只有三位所以三位正好來 張教授可以請"},{"start":7491.056,"end":7506.803,"text":"首先我要謝謝今天出席的所有的專家學者因為從剛剛大家的談話當中可以聽得到大家對於現在這個民進黨執政底下迴憲亂政對於我們民主憲政秩序的毀壞的一些憂慮跟擔心"},{"start":7508.464,"end":7525.041,"text":"那我以下有幾個比較具體的問題想要就叫三位第一個就是我們可以看到民進黨執政之後它事實上是一個雙少數的政府國會少數那賴清德總統也是40%民意他並不是多數總統那雙少數的這樣的一個執政黨"},{"start":7529.025,"end":7547.434,"text":"他們竟然第一個是他要用大罷免的方式用這樣子的一個過去也是我想是世界上應該是絕無僅有用這樣的方式要來改變國會的席次就是在政治上面他們發起這樣的一個惡意的罷免跟攻擊"},{"start":7548.554,"end":7573.047,"text":"導致現在我們整個國家的政情也是呈現一種對立跟動盪這樣其實是非常不恰當的做法另外一個最不恰當的做法就是剛剛三位我特別看你們的報告都特別提到不附屬這件事情違憲的地方但是民進黨在上次的公聽會裡面他們很多位委員"},{"start":7573.988,"end":7599.783,"text":"他們有一個詭辯他們提出來的理由就是說今天不附屬的是行政院院長為什麼我們要彈劾的是總統那當然剛剛這個黃景堂教授的報告裡面講得非常清楚喔在這一個之前的一個便當會裡面就是由這個賴清德總統他在12月12號的時候他召集的"},{"start":7600.423,"end":7622.948,"text":"12月15號這個行政院長他就立即就是他就是不附屬這些法律喔那所以他就是常進人喔他下指導期但是民進黨的委員還公然護航說你們這個是行政院長做的事情啊那為什麼是要彈劾總統呢針對這個問題喔我想請教三位"},{"start":7626.569,"end":7653.792,"text":"教授是不是可以從你們的觀點針對民進黨的委員這樣子的護航的說法你們有沒有什麼樣的一個意見那我們是不是依序從蔣貴美教授這邊開始OK那我就珍惜時間簡單來說因為王委員的提問是問題的焦點也就是說總統敢做不敢當因為在憲法裡面的附議他是非常清楚徵修條文明文規定要經過總統核可"},{"start":7655.233,"end":7678.326,"text":"所以何可全是在總統行政院長的職位也是來自總統而且不需要經過立法院統一是86年修法以後修過了所以從頭到尾行政院長他扮演總統幕僚長的角色那所以這種角色之下他的不附屬當然是總統的意志展現所以總統在整個的條文運作上他是責無旁貸的"},{"start":7679.526,"end":7697.155,"text":"第二個問題簡單來說就是雙少數政府這件事從賴總統上台以後他始終無法面對我覺得是非常怯懦的因為你雙少數你就必須面對這個問題然後你就回到總統元首的身份必須發揮你協調面對問題解決問題的功能而不是不斷的製造問題"},{"start":7702.137,"end":7726.668,"text":"所以宪法37条72条甚至我们回到所谓的征修条文里面它是非常清楚的规定它是因强制规定两个都是因公布因附属说到10天之内这个条文上这么清楚而且它不是法律规定它是宪法明文规定的所以我觉得这个是抵触宪法非常明显的事证"},{"start":7728.658,"end":7751.426,"text":"我想跟王委員這個問題第一個他推動大罷免本身是一個高度政治性的問題作為一個國家的領導人他應該知道這種政治性的問題要盡量給他的衝擊更小結果他的"},{"start":7752.625,"end":7776.706,"text":"表面上說他沒有參與而實質上總統是幕後的支持者因為這個從在朝的柯建民委員的談話裡面已經說得很清楚所以這一點就表示他是不敢負責任的第二個不附屬的這個事情因為現行的憲法徵求條文"},{"start":7778.905,"end":7800.755,"text":"我們的行政院長是總統全權可以任免的他如果不附屬和他的意思不一樣的話就是說行政院長的不附屬和總統意思不一致他就應該免職啊結果不到免職現在還在做啊這就表示他是受益的那麼這當然要負責任是 謝謝"},{"start":7807.489,"end":7813.138,"text":"大罷免案是一個非常惡意的行動,我想世界上應該是沒有這個東西。"},{"start":7818.601,"end":7841.656,"text":"就是說他應該是可以就此來講可以被提起彈劾或提起罷免的我們這個就蹉跎到現在這樣子我會認為說就他主導這個整個這個就是說這個革命拒絕附屬這是他清清楚楚主導我們這個提案的說明也講到這是主導"},{"start":7842.617,"end":7863.287,"text":"那麼你可以說我們如果用刑法上來講有所謂的間接正犯那麼這個所謂的共謀共同正犯、守謀等等這些但是這是刑法上的用語我們不一定要在這邊亦步亦趨的我現在只要講就是說事實上是從他的權力"},{"start":7864.828,"end":7893.634,"text":"他任免行政院長的權利所以他應該是有相當的指示即使說他沒有指示那麼行政院長做了這個動作以後那他就應該要糾正他如果他是首線、副線的總統他就應該負起責任說這個是不行立即糾正否則就叫他滾蛋那這個沒有就表示他事實上是一個共謀的甚至是一個守謀的行為"},{"start":7895.046,"end":7921.083,"text":"好 非常謝謝三位教授的一個回答剛剛也聽得非常的清楚行政院院長他根本沒有不附屬這樣的權利今天是總統授意然後他做這樣的事情所以當然我們要彈劾的對象就是總統更何況我們看到的是這不附屬的案件是一件接一件剛剛蔣貴美教授也已經幫忙算出來有八案之多"},{"start":7921.963,"end":7943.075,"text":"所以可能未來還會再有所以我想今天立法院我們也是依據憲法賦予我們的職權我們今天依法提出這樣的一個彈劾案那接下來一題我要請教的就是說目前憲法法庭只有五位大法官竟然就做出憲判而且"},{"start":7943.855,"end":7973.315,"text":"他是一件一件的去公告那在這樣的情況底下他程序本身違反但是會繼續開你們會不會擔心這樣的情況會變成三人言成虎就是他案例一多之後他把這種違法的非法的現在的這樣五個人就可以做出憲判這樣子的一個把這種非法變成是通例然後逼迫大家接受那這樣的情況要怎麼辦"},{"start":7974.035,"end":7995.369,"text":"我是不是可以先請教這個長貴美委員OK 謝謝委員我覺得憲法法庭五人審判這件事它連程序正義第一個就違法那也就是說連我們即使先不談司法連行政程序法111條連行政機關規範的法都明文規定無效的要戒"},{"start":7996.309,"end":8013.195,"text":"那所以也就是說何況是司法程序所以它的這種所謂的無效行為因為五個人在法治上它根本就不成立沒有辦法平抑那這個大家非常清楚不但是限訴法的新法或舊法它基本上是不成立所謂的平抑門檻"},{"start":8014.255,"end":8039.251,"text":"那可是他今天能夠抵觸這個而且不斷的做成我覺得在法律上非常清楚無效的行為不會因為時間經過它就變成有效所以將來最可能發生的一件事就是說你會影響到當事人的權利他的right會因為你的違法行為而遭到相關的損害所以我覺得是製造了更多的訴訟所以這種行為我覺得作為一個"},{"start":8040.431,"end":8054.897,"text":"國家元首你可以完全看不到這個是一個非常嚴肅的問題而且我覺得法治國的基本原則就是程序先理如果連程序都不正義的話更彈劾實體的問題"},{"start":8056.718,"end":8074.567,"text":"所以大法官五人自己去解釋在1.14憲判之第一號裡面自己去解釋說所謂的限遊總額要扣除那三個不參與評議的把他視為因為他迴避所以不參與評議更何況他也不見得是迴避的問題他根本就是拒絕參與所以我覺得這個是非常誇張"},{"start":8075.646,"end":8096.416,"text":"而且違法的行為謝謝黃警長教授要補充應該這樣講就是說這個五人現在的憲法法庭他也有一定的節制就是說他們基本上比較省人權但是根本性的來講就是說這個五人這樣來做這個憲法的這個法庭的生意"},{"start":8102.142,"end":8129.387,"text":"它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,它是一個很豐富的建築,"},{"start":8138.885,"end":8139.665,"text":"看看尹錫悅想想賴清德"},{"start":8168.783,"end":8195.109,"text":"南韓有一個癱瘓國會的總統叫做尹錫悅台灣也有一個癱瘓國會的總統叫做賴清德南韓的這個尹錫悅跟台灣的賴清德兩人癱瘓國會的目的企圖完全一樣"},{"start":8196.906,"end":8224.656,"text":"但是命運卻大不相同南韓的尹錫悅他用宣布戒嚴的方式癱瘓了國會於是呢被南韓公正的檢方以所謂的內亂守謀罪求處死刑一審判決法院認定"},{"start":8227.492,"end":8254.401,"text":"尹錫悅癱瘓國會的目的、企圖十分明顯毀壞南韓的民主憲政所以一審判他無期徒刑而前幾天南韓的檢方又再度出手發現尹錫悅為了鞏固政權出動無輪機去挑釁北韓"},{"start":8256.26,"end":8279.147,"text":"以反國家罪的名義求處三十年有期徒刑這是南韓捍衛民主憲政展現的決志也是今天南韓的司法展現的風骨但非常遺憾到了台灣賴清德總統"},{"start":8283.988,"end":8310.959,"text":"他用無聲戒嚴的方式癱瘓國會他有三大跟三部的手段癱瘓國會三大大罷免大清算大把關三部不公佈不附屬不執行我直接在這邊告訴大家其實我們國會早就被廢了先是大罷免"},{"start":8313.123,"end":8336.469,"text":"選輸不服標誌最高的民主更高的民主發動無差別式對在野黨的全面大罷免32比0大失敗賴總統不認接著司法大清算中華民國從來沒有在野黨立委被十幾個人被起訴的"},{"start":8338.117,"end":8366.241,"text":"民主制衡制衡的是掌握權力的行政權有能力貪污的是執政黨啊結果呢竟然有在野黨十多個立委被起訴錯憲政史之所無沒有權力的在野黨竟然可以被起訴十幾個立委而所有的我們的司法監督的是在野黨他沒有監督執政黨"},{"start":8367.674,"end":8392.322,"text":"第三是要大法官淪為袁世凱的仇安會明明不管按照新法舊法就算按照舊法的限訴法也要六個人才能夠達到會議的門檻五個大法官跟大家講少一個無所謂大家不要計較我們五個人還是一樣可以來做違憲的判決"},{"start":8393.587,"end":8418.905,"text":"完全的五個重安會來護航今天毀憲亂政實質戒嚴的賴清德總統這樣還不夠 做得不徹底接下來我們的民進黨 卓榮泰 賴清德記住了史上所無的不公佈 不附屬 不執行"},{"start":8420.404,"end":8437.736,"text":"對於立法院通過的法案我賴清德總統我開心我不公佈對於立法院通過的法案我今天卓榮泰我不開心我不附屬對於今天立法院通過的法案我今天就算公佈了附屬了我不執行國會你奈我何啊所以我剛剛講我們的國會早就廢了嘛還存在嗎"},{"start":8450.458,"end":8471.62,"text":"民主制衡還存在嗎我很痛心的說今天尹錫悅他如果看到今天的賴清德他可能會後悔因為他宣布了戒嚴今天賴清德沒有宣布戒嚴做得比尹錫悅還絕"},{"start":8473.803,"end":8499.419,"text":"民進黨就是個非常有執政創意的政黨啊三大三部就把國會灰飛煙滅這是今天我們國民黨看到我們民眾黨看到它會憲政史上最大的悲哀啊所以在這邊我也必須沉痛的說今天我們提出了彈劾案我直接告訴大家"},{"start":8500.629,"end":8521.601,"text":"因為彈劾的標準在5月19號那天的投票彈劾不會通過不會通過啊但是我們是向歷史負責我們要留下這歷史的紀錄來告訴大家今天南韓有風骨的司法能夠讓今天癱瘓國會的總統付出今天該付的代價"},{"start":8526.24,"end":8552.377,"text":"我們今天有一個台灣版的影席院沒有關係歷史招招然留下白紙黑字我要告訴大家這是台灣民主憲政最可恥的一位總統我們留下歷史記錄告訴大家台灣的民主今天不容一個毀憲亂政的政黨來去破壞謝謝大家我現在想請"},{"start":8554.5,"end":8563.247,"text":"李勝峰副主席還有展貴美教授時間暫停 麻煩請李勝峰副主席 藍教授麻煩請上台說明好 時間繼續我想分別問兩位一個問題一個是想請問李勝峰副主席"},{"start":8584.619,"end":8613.863,"text":"面對我剛剛講的民進黨賴清德癱瘓國會的三大跟三部從您對台灣民主憲政的了解今天到底我們國會存在到現在的意義是什麼對於三大跟三部我們該怎麼去面對這個毀憲亂政的時刻這兩個問題我想先請李森豐教授再請展貴美教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8615.393,"end":8629.02,"text":"這是台灣實行民主憲政以來 潔無僅有的亂象我想真的是希望空前 希望是潔後 或者是台灣民主"},{"start":8629.679,"end":8656.722,"text":"最大的傷害我們談了這麼多講了這麼多這些道理我不認為民進黨不懂我不認為賴清德不懂我不認為行政觀念不懂但是他們都在裝傻因為他們認為只要毀線亂記就可以度過只要不要臉就可以混過但是他們可以不要臉台灣要生存請翟教授"},{"start":8658.647,"end":8668.162,"text":"我永遠相信如果我們是一個民主國家不會沒有解決的機制我們必須堅持正義到最後一秒而且"},{"start":8669.093,"end":8692.936,"text":"有一個問題我覺得賴總統可能需要上憲法課雖然上了還不見得會做但是憲法裡面有一個非常重要的原則國會的意志叫法律總統的行政權不經過國會的那個叫行政命令那法律裡面規範的是重大事項憲法58條的重大事項是非常清楚的"},{"start":8693.596,"end":8720.179,"text":"所以如果連這個基本原則都不清楚還有什麼方式可以解決我覺得這是我們在面對憲政最後一關底線把手上必須要採取的行為也就是說只有一法行使才能夠讓總統可能會比較清醒談論是讓以後有潛力的人記得今天的警惕"},{"start":8721.788,"end":8738.545,"text":"非常謝謝那個李教授還有展教授其實我們今天大家站在這邊就是為歷史留下見證也感謝在場包括民眾黨的委員我們國民黨的委員然後在場這幾位我們的所謂的專家學者跟教授"},{"start":8740.026,"end":8765.572,"text":"今天在這邊其實心情是很沉重的真的非常沉重就是說我們到現在為止能夠寄託了台灣的民主制衡能夠寄託了真的就在我們現在幾位還願意發聲的專家學者以及還願意發聲的在野黨還有還願意今天來去在乎台灣民主的我們所有的台灣人民"},{"start":8766.403,"end":8785.185,"text":"所以民主制衡台灣人民是最後的防線所以在這邊我們是向歷史來交代也希望我們今天所有大家的發言能夠成為一個歷史的判決書讓後面的執政者知道你所做的一切不是沒有付出代價的謝謝"},{"start":8789.074,"end":8816.173,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的發言謝謝兩位李勝峰副主席 蔣教授的說明 謝謝報告全院委員會本院詢問的委員已經詢問完畢也要特別向各位報告今天聽證會的記錄工作人員正在會診之中我們現在等一下休息等記錄全部製作完畢之後我們繼續開會邀請出席所有的人員以及詢問的委員閱覽"},{"start":8817.634,"end":8820.32,"text":"以及簽名現在先休息"},{"start":11984.342,"end":12010.775,"text":"好 報告全委會 我們繼續開會向全委會報告今天聽證會紀錄出席人員以及詢問的委員均當場閱覽確認並完成簽名另外依照規定本院將製作聽證會報告分送給本院全體的委員做參考並刊登公報再次謝謝今天各位出席的所有學者專家代表"},{"start":12012.304,"end":12023.652,"text":"以及謝謝今天我們一起參與我們的所有的全員委員會的所有的委員徐宇貞委員 羅志強委員 翁曉琳委員今天會議進行到此為止現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}