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委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1582.287,"end":1584.389,"text":"目前在場不足三人我們的議事錄稍後再行確定"},{"start":1607.915,"end":1628.411,"text":"本日会议议程式邀请中央研究院国家科学及技术委员会数位发展部就AI主权时代学门建构与应用研究应用伦理及数位透明度支配套措施进行专题报告并被质询"},{"start":1629.452,"end":1652.393,"text":"首先我们来介绍与会的官员今天邀请的有三个机关首先我们来介绍机关的代表中央研究院副院长彭信坤副院长介绍中央研究院秘书长陈军厚陈秘书长"},{"start":1655.66,"end":1677.535,"text":"第二个机关代表要介绍的是国科会副主任委员陈炳渝陈副主委主任秘书林广宏林祖密那第三个要介绍的机关代表述发部政务次长侯怡秀侯次长"},{"start":1683.182,"end":1705.382,"text":"其余列席的机关代表请参阅名单不再逐一介绍列入公报记录现在我们进行报告那因为今天有三个机关要报告所以呢每一位机关代表报告的时间是五分钟首先邀请中央研究院彭信坤副院长报告时间五分钟请"},{"start":1716.02,"end":1742.387,"text":"早 各位委員 各位同仁 大家早呈邀委員會來報告今天就AI主權時代邪門建構與應用及研究倫理數位透明化之配套措施向大院來報告那AI發展得非常的快這個麻煩控制一下這個"},{"start":1749.717,"end":1775.428,"text":"醫學請協助謝謝抱歉我今天報告的架構分成學門建構及應用及主權AIAI應用與協助研究及倫理議題還有數位透明圖示配套措施三項來做報告首先我們在兩年前就已經成立了AI辦公室匯集了國內"},{"start":1776.768,"end":1801.667,"text":"汇集了院内所有的相关的学者专家成立了AI办公室推动资源行政智慧以及推动AI的职能培育教育然后成立了AI的风险研究小组特别我们在研发AI在人文科学研究方面的创新应用"},{"start":1802.507,"end":1830.334,"text":"那我們今年編列了1.2億提升的算力精進設備建置資料庫然後培育我們的AI的相關人才然後做訓練那AI主要有四大要素基礎設施我們主要是要發展適合台灣應用的小而美的一個模型在資料方面我們必須要應用我們目前重點現有的資料庫來做訓練"},{"start":1831.914,"end":1840.193,"text":"然後保護我們本身的資料庫另外我們要培育跨領域的人才在這一方面"},{"start":1843.326,"end":1862.717,"text":"在這方面特別要提到的是我們在座的資訊所的廖所長研發出來的多模態的視覺模型它的Euro7、Euro9它應用在很多的場域這些場域基本的模型可以擴展到不同的議題及應用"},{"start":1866.478,"end":1888.526,"text":"從動物的模型到老鼠的模型它最近應用在阿茲海默症的一個行為模式其實我要談到的我們要報告的是AI應用學術研究倫理的議題這個分成兩個面向首先是研究倫理的問題我們必須要保護研究對象"},{"start":1892.967,"end":1921.03,"text":"尤其現在AI可以替代這個線上訪談問卷但是我們必須要考慮到可能會有些族群會受到影響所以我們必須要依據人體研究法個人資料保護法 IRB 等進行規範至於學術人體方面我們必須本以學術誠信的原則誠實揭露哪些部分是AI的生成哪些是AI來改寫下一頁"},{"start":1922.131,"end":1941.96,"text":"所以半年前我們終於訂定了AI的三大指引首先我們必須要確保AI生成的資料的正確性AI產生出來的東西不是完全都正確的研究人員必須要保證這個結果是正確的"},{"start":1944.921,"end":1962.012,"text":"第二個我們必須要維護個人的隱私跟安全有些資料不能公開機密性的資料這部分不能提供給AI來做深層訓練另外我們也必須要考慮可克則性"},{"start":1963.769,"end":1987.826,"text":"必須要本以學術成性的演者對你所有的文章不管有沒有用AI改寫必須要負最後完全的責任所以我們並不是全部也都全部可以使用有些部分我們還是能夠禁止使用比如說是審查報告人事的相關資料這部分暫時不用"},{"start":1988.286,"end":2000.982,"text":"那其他部分我們就鼓勵研究人員使用但必須要本已誠實揭露的原則對AI產生的資料必須要公開揭露下一頁"},{"start":2002.304,"end":2021.459,"text":"在數位透明度的配套措施之外方面我們要考慮到駐座前的保護以及語音資料庫的正確性以及本土資料的精確性避免我們的資料庫被別人來使用被別人來詮釋最後一頁"},{"start":2024.682,"end":2049.391,"text":"我講我們AI主權核心在於能夠技術自主而且能夠兼顧安全與法治能夠維護我們文化的主體性以上精簡報告詳細請參與我們的書面報告謝謝請進行指教謝謝中央研究院的報告接下來有請國家科學及技術委員會陳秉宇副主委報告時間5分鐘請"},{"start":2062.29,"end":2090.483,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好感謝各位委員對於國家科技發展的重視與支持安排本會進行AI主權時代學問建構與應用研究應用倫理以及數位透明度的配套措施進行專題報告因AI的快速演進本會積極整合算力基礎建設推動法治治理並促進科研領域的AI應用以下請就本會目前的推動重點"},{"start":2091.644,"end":2096.933,"text":"与措施进行报告敬请各位委员会与指教大院三读通过的"},{"start":2098.055,"end":2121.85,"text":"人工智慧基本法已經於今年的1月14日經總統公告施行本會作為法規主管機關正積極協調各部會盤點法規並與書法部等機關合作推動風險分類以及資料治理的機制在AI算力方面本會正分年積極擴充算力113年建制的0.8MW大約是16MW"},{"start":2124.832,"end":2138.157,"text":"主机已经在去年6月开放目前使用率超过8成紧接着建制的4.3MW大概是100PF的主机预计在今年的年中会正式对外开放"},{"start":2139.646,"end":2158.673,"text":"目标是在118年将算力规模提升至23MW同时为提供安全跟高效便利的算力服务我们并建置了AI云端开发平台目前已经有超过100个单位来参加使用在科研发展"},{"start":2159.173,"end":2187.325,"text":"及应用方面本会鼓励科研人员运用我们搭建的算力平台并将AI技术融入各项科研领域在工程领域方面引领学界投入下世代新型晶片设计以及研发高运算力高节能的晶片系统创新架构在自然科学领域学研团队已将AI应用于新材料开发演算法优化以及灾害监测等面向在生命科学领域本会结合国网中心资源"},{"start":2188.445,"end":2205.757,"text":"推动专属的生医云端服务平台后置AI在生医农业领域的竞争力与研究效能在人文社会领域本会以专案计划协助学者掌握多模态大型原模型等关键技术让AI成为数位人文法律判决预测"},{"start":2206.778,"end":2221.523,"text":"经济风险控管等研究的强大助力随着AI工具的普及学术自律是本会高度重视的环节本会要求研究人员在使用非自行记录的资料时应做明处处秉持诚信负责的态度"},{"start":2222.103,"end":2240.098,"text":"从事研究工作在专题研究计划审查作业为保护研究的原创性与机密性本会已严格要求审查人员不得将申请书内容输入或提供给深圳市AI工具总结来说本会将以完善的算力建设为基础结合资料治理与学术推广"},{"start":2241.52,"end":2259.074,"text":"学术推展逐步形塑我国AI发展的整体布局本会将在促进创新应用的同时兼顾风险管理推动台湾在全球AI主权时代的稳健前行以上报告谢谢大家"},{"start":2261.377,"end":2270.68,"text":"谢谢国科会的报告请回座接下来有请述发部侯怡秀政务司长来做报告时间五分钟请"},{"start":2275.205,"end":2290.713,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天應邀就AI主權時代學門建構與應用研究應用倫理及數位透明度之配套措施提出報告請就數位發展部推動的重點向各位委員說明如下還請各位委員不吝賜教"},{"start":2291.753,"end":2307.34,"text":"面对人工智慧快速发展与国际对AI主权议题的重视本部以完善治理强化基础促进产业发展为推动主轴从制度资料与人才及产业三四个面向持续建构我国AI发展环境"},{"start":2309.101,"end":2337.157,"text":"第一完善AI治理机制我国人工智慧基本法已在115年1月14日由总统公布生效确立AI治理法制的基础本部负责推动的人工智慧风险分类框架目的在协助各目的事业主管机关以其业管特性与实际需求辨识AI应用之风险据以评估既有行动措施及管理规范是否足以避免或缓解风险"},{"start":2337.677,"end":2360.598,"text":"相关草案已呈报行政院审议中第二强化资料与人才基础在资料面方面为了促进资料流通与AI应用本部提出促进资料创新利用发展条例草案推动资料开放与公司资料共享机制并将导入标准授权条款降低资料使用门槛同时"},{"start":2361.278,"end":2383.106,"text":"本部也在去年开始建置台湾主权训练语料库并与经济部动同推出台湾主权AI训练语料授权条款建立明确的授权机制整合正体中文语料截至目前为止已经有超过200个政府机关参与目前累积的资料量超过12亿个token"},{"start":2383.766,"end":2405.744,"text":"那在人才方面呢在公务人才方面本部与人事总处共同成立AI公务人才发展办公室推动人才标准与训练制度并推动定定AI公务人才认定指引以协助各机关建立分级培训及选才机制强化政府整体AI应用能力"},{"start":2406.785,"end":2431.4,"text":"预计在115年底会正式发布那在产业人才的部分呢我们也发布了AI产业人才认定指引建立共通的职能标准提出应用开发研究三种AI人才与五种AI能力类型协助企业辨识及引导所需AI人才能力的养成并以纳入公务人员AI培训参考"},{"start":2432,"end":2449.257,"text":"目前在这个人才的指引底下已经集结了24个生态系伙伴包括21家培训认证机构3家人才门和平台后续也将持续扩大生态系伙伴会整相关认证及课程资讯供各界参考"},{"start":2449.958,"end":2471.967,"text":"那最后在这个促进AI产业与生态发展部分呢书发部是以五大政策工具包括算力资料人才行销以及资金这五大政策工具来进行推动在算力方面本部建置AI算力池工业者申请使用协助新创进行模型训练与技术开发"},{"start":2473.668,"end":2489.038,"text":"在115年3月將AI算力設施列入促參重大工程建設範圍並在4月啟動手中指標型數位建設促參案的政策公告引進民間資金與創新技術"},{"start":2490.559,"end":2510.735,"text":"希望能共创政府与民间双赢那在行销的部分呢为了促进AI矿业产业应用与合作书发部透过办理AI Demo Day促进产官学研对接13年到14年已经吸引370家企业参与累计的签约金额达到1000"},{"start":2512.577,"end":2539.319,"text":"2015年将以场域导向产业聚焦区域串联为策略规划办理12场AI Demo Deck推动AI技术与多元场域导入验证与应用在资金方面我们也推动加强投资AI新创实施方案由国发基金匡列100亿为期10年的受理投资强化AI新创与数位经济产业的发展动能"},{"start":2540.12,"end":2569.487,"text":"速发部将持续关注于AI主权国际趋势积极扩展预料库供AI训练应用以支持推动我国主权AI的运用已经公告的这个征求民间自行规划参与AI算力中心BOO案不仅是我国手中指标型的数位建设促参案更是象征政府与民间携手建构完善国家算力基础设施的重大政策以上报告进行指教"},{"start":2572.229,"end":2593.147,"text":"謝謝書發部侯次長的報告機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在先確定議事錄請問各位委員上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好議事錄確定"},{"start":2596.411,"end":2612.257,"text":"好 我們現在開始進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間是4分鐘發言登記截止時間是上午10點30分委員如果有臨時停案"},{"start":2612.737,"end":2632.248,"text":"请在十点三十分之前提出并与本会委员罗廷伟赵伟质询结束后即进行处理处理提案时若提案委员及联署委员均不在场原例不予处理首先请登记第一位柯志恩委员进行询答"},{"start":2637.631,"end":2643.74,"text":"谢谢周围那我们想试试我们先请术发部的侯次长好了好有请术发部侯次长"},{"start":2652.699,"end":2673.702,"text":"次长好啊我想我们非常感谢赵伟今天排定的这个AI主权时代所衍生的非常多的一个问题当然我们给予肯定我们AI基本法已经三读通过但是呢事情到现在我想面对于这个AI的时代我们还是有很多的细节我们需要做一个讨论在没有进入主题之前我是不是可以请问一下曹次长"},{"start":2674.222,"end":2694.828,"text":"这个高德地图目前来说真是闹得沸沸扬扬每个人都说他可能有这个资安的疑虑但是呢我们地方政府却认为目前唯有并没有所谓的各自外泄的一个问题就你的观点来去看的话中央说有疑虑地方说没有资安的疑虑那到底这个是谁的认知有问题次长嗯"},{"start":2699.202,"end":2726.583,"text":"首先就跟委员说明依照这个原则我们来处理的这个原则是依据资通安全法第11条的规定就是公务机关不得下载安装或使用危害我知道我的意思是说你们有做过这个评估我相信因为当时特别提到了高雄市交通局认为我们这些各自的资料没有外泄而且它纯粹是用大数据的方式来其实"},{"start":2727.304,"end":2753.508,"text":"这个政府不禁还好一禁它现在马上就变成了这个下载了上个礼拜还是第一名现在今天变成这个礼拜变成第二名所以说呢很显然政府所谓的这个国安疑虑跟所谓人民使用的这个部分里面是有一些的落差的那我想我还特别来问而且不要忘记你们上一次也特别发布的去年书发布还有国安局认定有高风险的五款"},{"start":2754.128,"end":2772.913,"text":"中国制造的APP当中像抖音几乎就是排名第四微信小红书在社交列排名大概第十跟第十一我当然认为说政府替人民把关是天经地义的但是你就应该解释所有的APP所以到目前为止你们认为高德地图还是有资安的危险吗"},{"start":2774.373,"end":2795.68,"text":"像委員報告高德地圖因為是這個中國廠商的地圖那他會受到中國法律的拘束是那在中國的法律底下一據我們所了解關於他的這個情報法還有網路安全法的規定中國政府是可以隨時取用這些使用我個人認為說還是一句話"},{"start":2796.22,"end":2816.03,"text":"你们为了这个资安的安全你们可以做任何的事情可是我觉得这个在发布这个之前应该有更审慎而且要一致的标准你如果说自己有资安疑虑的话到目前为止大家还是要用我刚刚所调列的不管是抖音或是小红书等等之类的我说我才说民众的认知有一些的落差而且"},{"start":2816.75,"end":2817.811,"text":"Facebook还占了24.8还有Instagram占了17.2"},{"start":2846.83,"end":2867.408,"text":"这才是人民切身关切的我们永远都是在这告诉我们有国安疑虑然后要禁要禁要禁我们不惜思考为什么大家用高德地图说实在我用了我也不觉得有那么好用很多人看法是不一样但是我个人觉得这个有关APP的标准来看应该是一致的像这个诈骗的部分苏法部目前为止诉所无策啊"},{"start":2867.748,"end":2895.753,"text":"所以到底哪個軟體對於我們人民在使用的時候最需要去應該提高警覺的所以舒華波在這個層面上面也應該有更積極的一個作為嗎是 跟委員報告就APP來說呢其實還是必須看它所適用的准據法那因為這些中國的APP呢它有它原產帝國的這個法規跟其他國家不一樣"},{"start":2896.493,"end":2916.156,"text":"高德這部分次長我同意你只要有資安疑慮你可以提出你的看法我現在是告訴你就是說在目前跟人民最相關的當中都是使用這些那這些的部分裡面他們其實詐騙的這個比率更高那在這更高的狀況下你會不會做出一些像是高德一樣的"},{"start":2916.877,"end":2918.558,"text":"这些都需要大家共同来"},{"start":2938.055,"end":2957.743,"text":"去做所以我才说不要有双标任何只要跟人民有关不管是你是自安或者是跟这个有关都要做相同的提醒不要是故此失禀还有很重要是今天因为AI的伦理时间的关系你们特别建制的很重要的两个任务就是建制的AI风险分类框架跟指引没错吧"},{"start":2958.323,"end":2979.873,"text":"那我个人还有另外是有关模型这个评测的一个机制那AI的风策分类框架跟指引我认为这是非常重要的是重中之重因为你涉及到各部会当中到底是如何这个法规是否这个充足还有你的风险的管理的规范到哪里以目前来说到选举的时候AI出来的东西简直让我们疲于奔命"},{"start":2980.293,"end":3002.12,"text":"那我们看到有很多AI生成很多扭曲的讯息即使AI基本法第五条已经明令规定但它基本是一个基本大法很多的一个细节当中我们自己承受很多AI生成之后造成资讯扭曲这些的部分那我们可以跟速发部检举你们最大的做法就是好吧那我们就通知Meta举例来说然后把它下架"},{"start":3002.56,"end":3026.237,"text":"那如果说你这个的这个分类的方法框架一出来之后不用你每次都是你们书发部来做这样的一个处理吗你可以分门别类给不同的单位来去做处理吗没错吧跟委员报告其实目前就已经是由书发部分门好那你们这个预计审查要多久我们现在风险分类框架已经送到行政院了什么时候可以下来"},{"start":3027.457,"end":3046.266,"text":"要看行政院那边处理的状况需要很快就下来因为对我们来说我们才知道对等在什么地方包括我们用AI来做远距的医疗那我就可以直接找卫福部什么地方我要找什么地方所以你必须要把它全部最快时间把它放出来我们才知道否则你们抒发部真的会忙死了"},{"start":3046.966,"end":3066.061,"text":"同意這個委員會跟委員報告我們現在已經跟各部會其實已經在進行協助中我們只是盡量趕快把他這個管理規範因為我們目前基本法過去只是個大框架很多的細節我們所遭遇的問題都來請回座我們現在遭遇的問題現在目前還是我是不是請中研院的這個彭副院長"},{"start":3067.282,"end":3089.294,"text":"还有国科会的陈副主委因为目前很重要是面对学术伦理的问题这完全打破我们以前在教书各位都教过书我们以前最重要的就是第二章我们的文献探讨reference对不对当老师的指导教授不是每天都要去看他说你到底跟我们之间的研究有什么关系现在这一块反而是老师最不晓得该怎么办的为什么"},{"start":3089.614,"end":3117.416,"text":"因为学生比我们更了解这个资讯他把它全部的资料丢进去AI把它生成谁老师都没有办法出来的那你这个部分你觉得有没有然后以至于在我们最后的这个文献文献最后的那个参考资料部分以前我们只要把这个出自哪里我们把它放出来就好现在这么多的整合而且你们还要找到源头但是你要从AI的生成资料当中找到源头你要有一些技术跟方法你这叫我们怎么办"},{"start":3118.898,"end":3135.539,"text":"兩位學術單位你要怎麼辦我們這個眾院協助處已經有這個能力而且我們有已經做這個動作任何一個paper任何一個計畫我們都有辦法用AI去偵測到底是AI生成的還是AI改寫的那改寫的哪一部分我們都可以mark起來"},{"start":3136.32,"end":3159.148,"text":"这个软体我们在使用我现在不想看到我们以前写的paper到最后被他做深层之后我看到这个看起来很像是我以前的可是又好像不是因为整了很多都没有这个状况然后以前你只要直指几年几什么时候在什么地方出版你现在光是那个后面的参考资料我看都需要重新的定义中研院有这三个部分但是我觉得目前为止还是"},{"start":3159.508,"end":3178.761,"text":"这都是在AI基本法之前你们就已经先做的国客会也是当目前基本法完之后你们有没有在这个所谓的参考指引上面做更细致的分工跟细致的一个分法跟我们报告我们还会根据生存式AI的进展有针对这些内容再做一些调整"},{"start":3179.221,"end":3207.731,"text":"有在做调整什么时候我们可以看到网站什么时候可以看到我们应该是随时调整完都会随时的公告我现在只身为老师我真的觉得就会马上遭遇到这样一个问题而且最重要是我也同意你们说会来只要用AI有一些浮水印等等之类的可是在学校里面不是每个人像你们两个单位里面可以做这样所以你们这样的技术是有办法完全下放到所有的学术单位任何公司的大学168间的所有的公司大学都可以来做这样的使用吗"},{"start":3208.191,"end":3230.549,"text":"不是因為造成這些老師我們中研院的部分是要購買要有版權要中研的IP才可以使用是 那我們學校怎麼辦呢我們就老師看這學生的報告畫在寫欸 以前看到學生寫報告我就給他很高現在學生寫報告寫這麼完整跟他平常表現不一樣我都稍微質疑一下這到底是用抄襲還是他自己的行為這個就會造成我們很大的困擾那這部分怎麼辦"},{"start":3231.149,"end":3239.275,"text":"不能只有在你們中研院啊國科院包括你未來在審查的時候包括五年的創作的部分都是我們審查的標準你怎麼樣面對這個問題"},{"start":3241.672,"end":3265.175,"text":"各位報告 這個的確真的要回到這個學術的本質上面去做探究那我們的確會再透過很多的管道去讓老師們去讓我們的你就趕快拜託隔壁的中研院他們是要版權什麼你就拜託中研院好不好把這個技術給你們到最後我們要申請中研院的學術獎勵或是個人的專案獎勵的時候搞不好大家先由中研院的系統先掃過一遍"},{"start":3266.716,"end":3295.02,"text":"然后告诉我们这个部分当然我们原创性还是非常的重要啊对不对但是就是会变成我第一个马上想到的就第二张文献探讨那个部分那个几乎以前大家就觉得还花很多时间现在学生搞不好最后全部丢给AI然后是生成出来然后老师根本也搞不清楚因为我根本不知道然后重点是我会重点是对我们来说一个写这么好的报告以前都给他最高的肯定现在马上第一个质疑啊这个到底是谁写的这才是我们现在面临最大的部分嘛"},{"start":3295.731,"end":3320.605,"text":"對我們來說這部分不是問題我現在說可以偵測到百分之七十二百分之六十八院長你們這個已經有研發這個部分就全部丟給我們老師了然後最重要原因還是一句話我們AI的台灣的模式到底要是像美國認為比較是放寬不要那麼多的限制還是像歐盟一樣絕對是要有我們台灣的模式是不是最後時間告訴我們你到底覺得在學術界來說你應該廣泛"},{"start":3322.546,"end":3348.641,"text":"還是在學術界當中你反而是像歐盟一樣你要給他相當大的一個限制範圍跟委員報告因為在AI基本法在制定的時候我們其實就經過很多次的討論基本上在AI基本法這邊我們是希望能夠去橫平這個比較創新跟風險的控管的機制那但是在學術界的話其實我們是更加的鼓勵創新的部分那希望大家能夠利用AI的工具能夠"},{"start":3350.902,"end":3351.482,"text":"进展到更"},{"start":3380.962,"end":3410.043,"text":"分成两块他有写AI生成的部分然后AI改写的部分我手上就有资料我过去半年已经用了还是一句话啦副院长不要只有你们中研院在用啦我们也需要啦不管是改写还是生成你只要让大学里面否则我们真的还是会把我刚刚所提到的问题还是会继续最重要是到最后的参考数目当中我真的不晓得到最后的部分里面应该有个准则提供大家有一个更好的方向否则不为料了好吧感谢谢谢"},{"start":3412.341,"end":3437.268,"text":"謝謝柯之恩委員的質詢 請機關代表回座接下來有請葛如君委員進行詢問請謝謝主席 有請國科會陳副主委 中研院彭副院長請國科會中研院"},{"start":3440.384,"end":3452.377,"text":"好 我先請教一下彭副院長剛剛的質詢裡面你說這個可以去檢查它有沒有亂用這個AI去生成內容裡面有一些軟體是不是這個部分可不可以延伸說明一下"},{"start":3453.203,"end":3479.697,"text":"好 我們眾院從去年開始有一個軟體我們就手上有寫AI的偵測報告所以每一個研究計畫我們用眾院的IP就可以丟進去那偵測出來就有兩欄一個是所謂AI生成的部分另外一部分是AI改寫的部分那這一部分它可以分成百分比都可以秀得很精準"},{"start":3481.218,"end":3510.017,"text":"我想這個部分也就是本席擔心的本席就是擔心我們要用軟體去檢查人類的成果您剛剛提到的這一點我們事前辦公室去跟中研院來了解說有沒有使用軟體有沒有採購軟體我們得到的答案是沒有結果您現在上來要炫耀說你們有使用軟體為什麼本席要在這裡提醒要維繫AI倫理重點不在檢測工具"},{"start":3511.298,"end":3539.34,"text":"而在教育在店家裡面購買什麼樣的工具給客人重點不在這些工具能不能傷人而是它的用途是什麼用意是什麼放一把火它可能會對帳篷造成危險可是它可以讓人類開始吃到熟食不知道你們有沒有看過這個新聞維繫校園安全這個沒有問題用檢查的方式用AI來檢查人類就造成什麼誤判"},{"start":3541.062,"end":3560.757,"text":"16歲的少年 手上拿著Torritos就是說他手上拿著槍 哇 這個遠景一湧而上這還不是什麼案例喔我想副院長可能想說 哎呀 這個不一樣的AI啊我就給副院長看一下這是在美國學術界裡面廣泛流傳而且已經被認定的錯誤判斷的案例"},{"start":3561.477,"end":3590.644,"text":"科學怪人瑪麗雪來第五章的開頭文字如果丟到你們的AI軟體辨識軟體啊可以試試看啦大部分的AI辨識軟體都說這是AI寫的請問瑪麗雪來是AI嗎副院長這個我想我們不能完全相信AI是啦所以要本已程序原則還是要要check它的準確性很好不然我本來上來真的是要鼓勵一下我們副院長你說容許使用"},{"start":3591.104,"end":3615.478,"text":"使用AI不等於違反學術倫理這個我們都鼓勵啦如果您過度的強調AI的偵測AI的軟體去監控或者是審查我想這個可能會有點本末倒置我覺得我們在這裡還是要校正一下視聽也相信我們中研院所有同仁要放心中研院一定是站在一個更高的角度而不是要用軟體去檢查審查人產出的內容為什麼"},{"start":3616.57,"end":3635.689,"text":"因為AI可能會犯錯嘛對不對尤其是文字的檢查AI會犯錯的機率已經幾乎被證實了所以這一點麻煩我們院長這個副主委我們都一起來努力啦那這樣子的一個做法其實我們也是希望說未來我們可以更好的運用AI"},{"start":3636.229,"end":3649.945,"text":"那我們今天要談AI主權或者大部分人講主權AI那我們也不要忽視算力那算力取決AI的Token全世界對AI Token的要求越來越高本席過去曾經問過國客會的吳主委就說"},{"start":3651.346,"end":3675.724,"text":"針對AI用的多用的好的國內外的教授因為有一些是我們邀請他來的國外教授有一些是國內的我們可不可以透過這個來延攬他能獎勵他吳主委當時跟我們承諾說沒問題很好的建議承諾一個月內提供相關的報告今天也快一個月了請教一下國國會陳副主委現在進度如何有沒有什麼初步的進展可以跟大家分享"},{"start":3679.625,"end":3703.803,"text":"跟委員回報 我們目前應該是在整理當中應該是5月8號之前會提供給大院好 太好了 同樣的問題我們也問彭副院長啦就是對於使用 因為您剛剛也講嘛就是這個AI不等於違反學術人體正面看待 而且容許使用我們也希望中研院的同仁是很會善用AI那對於善用AI 有在使用AI Token或使用AI工具在做研究的國內外優異的研究員"},{"start":3706.505,"end":3721.416,"text":"有沒有提供一些幫助或對國外延展來的學者我們可不可以或者國內邀請來的學者給他AI Token更多讓他可以做更好的研究這個部分能不能一個月內給本席一個規劃我們一起來努力可以這樣嗎"},{"start":3722.156,"end":3737.326,"text":"可以謝謝接下來本席想先請教副主委一個問題我們來看一下這個畫面這個字有點小問一下劉聖良陳婉慧邱承遠目前是在立法院的哪一個委員會"},{"start":3742.227,"end":3759.023,"text":"好問題你這個問題要查一下才知道好沒問題啦事實上不用查AI問在場所有的人我們都知道這三位都已經不是現任的立委但這個畫面呢我們是使用今年二月才釋出的台德模型那他的回答呢哇 非常具有想像空間"},{"start":3760.304,"end":3777.276,"text":"說他們是台灣民眾黨是這個會期擔任副院長各種的想像而且還講了2025年底所屬的委員會有各種各種的想像清楚的告訴我們一個錯誤的宇宙好像真實一樣但是我們理解"},{"start":3777.996,"end":3793.625,"text":"資料是會出錯的研究同仁都很努力但是這些出錯的問題呢這個模型突出來的卻認為它是真的我們還問了他現在的副主委是誰啊他說林敏充女士想必副主委您不是林敏充女士嘛對吧"},{"start":3794.085,"end":3815.38,"text":"所以這個資訊可是它上面還解的很清楚喔截至2026年初事實上這樣子的一種做法在過去的AI服務裡面是要清楚標示的那我們可以看得到CheckGPT Gemini都有標示那模型能不能用這件事情我想請教一下主委我們"},{"start":3816.241,"end":3826.175,"text":"推出的二月今年二月才推出的台德的模型我們所有研究人員都很用心去做出來可是做出來這個資訊結果這樣我們應該要如何看待如何處理啊"},{"start":3828.334,"end":3857.274,"text":"跟委員回報這個台德這一塊我們其實一直在鼓勵大家來做精進所以這個我們會再繼續努力好 事實上我覺得幾個建議非常明確第一個事實上有部分內容在問他的時候他會很明確地講他的資料只在2023年所以事實上我們也看到一些極權國家他可能在問他某一些數字的問題的時候他不想回答我們不去做審查"},{"start":3858.015,"end":3880.245,"text":"但是模型本身是可以自我理解它的資料到什麼時候模型在吐出答案的時候也是可以提醒用戶這個資料不盡正確我相信在座剛剛這個中委院副院長 彭副院長也說他用AI用得很熟我相信有用過AI去問法律問題的人都知道他最後一定會加一句這是法律的相關的這個參考"},{"start":3883.027,"end":3892.707,"text":"請你有問題還是要詢問律師所以這種所謂的AI跟互動過程當中所做到的提醒我們還是要有這一點未來我們可不可以持續的改進"},{"start":3893.963,"end":3911.742,"text":"跟委員報應該是可以的好那我們其實也想說好沒有關係時間的問題也許沒有辦法非常完美但是我們也想要測試它的文化主權的能力啦因為我們也看嘛你說自己做自己的AI模型要Find to要對我們的文化有更多的了解嘛結果咧"},{"start":3912.703,"end":3923.828,"text":"在地的語境也掌握不足這字有點小啦那我們就問了這個台德的模型劉友看語重分高麗菜煮蛋那一桌到底是什麼"},{"start":3925.494,"end":3954.674,"text":"兩個不信啦第一個很不信啦我們已經問了他TikTok結果呢他括號說TikTok抖音就是所謂的TikTok對於我們台灣的這個文化完全誤解同時呢對於這個網友的這種文字的用詞用法他也不了解所以我們其實覺得非常的可惜啊然後呢我們也測試了什麼你說文化的主權主權的AI結果呢我們問他一些電影的一些這個翻譯啊"},{"start":3955.374,"end":3970.929,"text":"結果他說有一部很好看的克里斯多夫諾蘭的影片潛行空間我看到有人在笑了這是Inception這我最愛的電影啊全面啟動潛行空間是誰的翻譯?拍誰?中國大陸的翻譯就Jema吐出來"},{"start":3971.61,"end":3998.982,"text":"我們完全沒有要苛責研究人員的意思我們要幫助大家所以我有具體兩點訴求想跟副主委交流第一我們要超前部署那我們現在的這個模型今年2月推出Gemma 312B的Find 2的版本但是4月份Gemma 4就出了我們做的時間很久我沒有要苛責但是我們能不能去討論"},{"start":4001.183,"end":4018.345,"text":"產官學更多的公司協力的合作因為事實上在過去這字都有一點小不好意思就是說這個FreeSDFreeSeed有一個大型的模型這個陳彥廷我們博士的非常棒的研究員"},{"start":4019.306,"end":4043.532,"text":"他是用了很多的台灣本地的語料去訓練了用GBT OSS 120B去fine-tune了一個120B的版本那他們很努力的還要去群眾募資然後去募集資源做了可能也很難做下去我們有沒有辦法去公司協力我們也幫副主委找了法源 AI基本法第八條"},{"start":4044.412,"end":4062.655,"text":"資通安全法第四條都明確要求政府要促進產官學合作那目前國際也是如此嘛NASA國防部直接跟SpaceX來發射火箭因為很多事我覺得三年前我們還可以討論政府來做現在我們要借重民間的力量我們主權AI的發展上可不可以比照辦理"},{"start":4063.336,"end":4079.511,"text":"去建構一套政府與民間協力的機制副主委能不能在一個月內針對大模型還有算力的機房去提出我們的公私協力的一個合作的規劃的可能可以嗎跟委員回報基本上這個的確就是我們現在在做的方向"},{"start":4080.291,"end":4107.822,"text":"包含了我們在推的那個算力聯盟那這個台德就是所謂的大選與模型這一塊我們也希望能夠跟廠商做合作一個月可能是稍微短一點點兩個月這個AI的時代一個月等於是一個世紀了好不好所以這個我們其實已經正在做了兩個月可以嗎可以可以我們兩個月內為什麼因為我看到國會今天的報告說2029年瞄準算力到多少瓦"},{"start":4108.402,"end":4122.477,"text":"你自己記得嗎?2029應該是23MW副主委有上網看網路新聞吧有看這些國外大廠的發表會吧我直接跟您分享啦2027到2028Meta要啟用1GW到2030年以前"},{"start":4129.059,"end":4143.861,"text":"兩Gigawatt那Giga單位我們上次已經跟國會主委討論過了人家是兩千啊我們是二十啊那我們又是 哇 科技之島 哇 又戲頓所以我們真的要跟產業一起來合作"},{"start":4144.241,"end":4161.224,"text":"要加倍而且要加速最後還有一個問題另外本協要請教我們能不能進一步的來佈局因為我們自己要蓋可能真的很難我們就算公司協力也很難這個AI Token我們能不能提前佈局採購這什麼意思"},{"start":4162.233,"end":4190.561,"text":"澳洲日本美國正在蓋沒有台積電的晶片他也蓋不了沒有台灣的供應商提供他這些機架這些水冷設備他也不能去蓋我們可不可以早一點在蓋的時候我們用國家的高度去跟他談我們談AI Token的預購我們阿拉斯加的這個LNG我們國家都可以來預購啊AI Token我們能不能及早做國家級的"},{"start":4191.601,"end":4208.366,"text":"因為你要建 要建設就建成像我們剛剛看到的嘛2022...110...這個2028年 2029年我們要這個23GW 別人的1%這個有沒有機會來研議一下好 這個我們回去研討看看"},{"start":4208.646,"end":4234.628,"text":"那時間能不能給我一下這個可能要快這個一個月好不好初步的初步的好不好一個月那有機會也可能要邀請國會這邊來我們這邊一起來探討一下因為這個真的是要提前佈局過了這個村沒有那個店你都蓋好了你跟人家說要分人家也不分你了現在在商業合作我們國家有話語權這也是我們的AI主權也是我們的主權AI最後的最後請教一下"},{"start":4235.569,"end":4251.859,"text":"短期內我們剛剛講的都是長期短期內沒有超前部署我們可不可以做到精準打擊因為我們的AIR主權AI或AI主權其實就是要有文化的主體性這一點我相信也是我們主席安排這一次的專題報告非常重要"},{"start":4252.219,"end":4266.113,"text":"要文化的主體性我們的AI要講我們的語言我們講影片就影片不是視頻講聲音就是聲音不是音頻品質就品質不是質量但是我們現在發現沒有這樣的語料庫"},{"start":4269.777,"end":4293.019,"text":"我們的這個語料庫有很多東西沒有更新像我們提到上次講AI Token對不對我們去查了其實相關的這個語料庫其實是不夠的像一個電影Inception我們台灣翻譯是什麼全面啟動結果跑出一個潛行空間其實這是可以解決的如果我們有一個語料庫台灣的用語"},{"start":4294.298,"end":4308.698,"text":"GPT可以來學Gemini可以來學台德自己也可以來學就不會發生我們剛剛看到的重要的國家籍的資料是錯誤的重要的國家的文化是錯誤的這個我再考一下這個主委這一題已經謝題過了"},{"start":4311.562,"end":4331.669,"text":"像這個是我們很重要的一個文化 這個是什麼意思這是前總統蔡英文有二十萬讚喔在那個臉書在推上面全球轟動的一個算是次文化有沒有人要搭救一下我們副主委的"},{"start":4334.247,"end":4355.422,"text":"蘇巴布市長,這個侯市長真的很了解我們署名文化,網路文化真羨慕,這個詞打出來,全球的網路阿宅不明絕地,事實上就是真羨慕的意思那真羨慕我們也考過了,全世界所有主流AI都沒通過測驗"},{"start":4356.443,"end":4383.305,"text":"沒有任何一個AI知道這個是真羨慕的意思只要我們有一個語料庫這不用很貴啊把它建進去我們JMR3 12B它也可以回答出來這個就是我們真正的AI主權真正的主權AI這個副主委啊有沒有機會能夠在一定的期間之內我剛剛很多報告但是這個您自己講一個時間好不好我真的不想讓大家但這個真的很重要因為我從"},{"start":4384.545,"end":4413.378,"text":"2024年2月1號一進來我就一直在呼籲我們的政府要回過頭來要定義我們自己的文化包含我們的庶民文化網路文化電影的翻譯藝人的名稱是珍妮佛不是珍妮花是蜘蛛人不是蜘蛛俠這個副主委我們能不能要跨部會我想你們是最適合跨部會的是是這個我們因為語勞庫這一塊現在庶發部在幫忙在處理所以我們可以跟庶發部一起來做這件事情"},{"start":4413.638,"end":4435.153,"text":"能不能有一個時間線就是一個月兩個月或三個月有個初步研議的時候我不喜歡這樣但是因為這件事情很急迫我想侯次長也很了解你看侯次長剛剛都可以其實只要說不定訪談一下侯次長把它建立起來這個旅遊庫說不定就很完整可不可以有一個時間三個月我們可以說"},{"start":4438.164,"end":4464.219,"text":"對 應該三個月了全球AI 主流AI Cloud GPT Gemini 茵茵期盼因為他們真的很想要更加貼近我們民主的 繁體中文的 華文的文化好不好 這一點我們一起來努力 可以嗎好 謝謝 謝謝副主委好 謝謝葛瑞君委員的質詢 請官員回座接下來有請林怡菁委員進行詢答"},{"start":4473.364,"end":4483.922,"text":"謝主席有請國科會陳副主委 速發部侯次長 中研院彭副院長請三個機關代表上質詢台"},{"start":4486.591,"end":4508.947,"text":"首先我想請教國科會跟訴發部當初我們製定AI基本法的時候曾履歷提及我們訴發部要去盤點各部會然後去配合來訂定相關的執法因為有些法律甚至是要配合AI基本法來做出相對應的修正這個可以參照AI基本法的第17條到第19條"},{"start":4511.108,"end":4516.413,"text":"那AI基本法的第16條還有明訂說我們速發部要訂定這個AI的風險分類框架那想請教侯次長跟那個陳副主委我們執法修法的這個盤點進度如何那這個風險分類框架什麼時候公告那相對應的修法有沒有跟其他的部會再進行討論"},{"start":4538.602,"end":4559.864,"text":"跟委員報告目前風險分類框架還有法規的盤點現在都是在進行當中風險分類框架應該已經送到行政院現在正在等待和聽當中其他的盤點我們應該是一直在進行一直在進行當中"},{"start":4560.845,"end":4569.737,"text":"那可不可以把預計要修法的這些法規清單不管是法律啊 或者是法規命令是不是可以一個禮拜給本席分報告"},{"start":4573.307,"end":4590.442,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前是把AI風險分類框架送到行政院可能也跟委員報告一下目前AI風險框架跟各部會協作的一個機制"},{"start":4592.323,"end":4614.933,"text":"那風險分類框架裡面我們風險分為三大類那三大類底下有18個子類那這18個子類我們是參考MIT的這個風險的它有一個叫Risk Repository的一個架構那這個架構其實是收集了全世界各國不同的風險分類去做統整"},{"start":4615.533,"end":4643.78,"text":"那在這一個三大類18個子類之下呢我們把風險整個分類框架分為四個步驟那第一個步驟是盤點應用場景也就是我們請各機關去盤點他們所屬的這個所管的業務範圍內有哪些AI應用的場景那第二個步驟就是在這個應用場景底下依據我們所提供的這個分類有哪些風險"},{"start":4646.301,"end":4658.515,"text":"第三個步驟就是評估風險就是究竟他們識別出來的這些風險的可能性和發生之後嚴重危害的程度是不是有到所謂高風險的這個等級"},{"start":4660.237,"end":4681.429,"text":"那最後就是請各個部會他們去盤點說在這一個風險識別的和評估的結果底下現有的法律和政策工具是不是足夠因應那如果不夠因應的話呢是不是要去進行修法或是要有新的政策工具來提供"},{"start":4683.23,"end":4702.379,"text":"整個措施整個步驟我們現在在國客會的支持底下已經跟各部會開始進行非常積極的協作那我也請委員能夠我相信委員也能夠理解在這各個不同的部會裡面其實AI應用的程度是相當不一樣的"},{"start":4702.779,"end":4716.684,"text":"那他們對AI的這個理解還有風險的這個識別也都不太一樣那目前我們跟勞動部還有這個衛福部幾個比較金管會這些都已經開始進行協作"},{"start":4718.385,"end":4724.17,"text":"那關於修法的部分不好意思請問一下現在是討論這種修法就相關的執法我們有說什麼時候要執法要出來至少你們規劃什麼時候執法的草案出來那相關的盤點的進度我再詢問這個"},{"start":4736.181,"end":4761.97,"text":"那國會會這邊其實已經有請各部會去做初步的盤點那但是也請委員能夠理解就是因為AI的這個運用還有技術一直在不斷的變動當中所以還在盤點當中就是我們可能要持續性的跟您階段性的報告就是因為他可不可以先給我就是目前盤點到如何給我一份書面報告好不好因為時間的關係"},{"start":4764.746,"end":4790.682,"text":"接下來來解釋AI各層面的議題因為他很清楚他跨足了科研端 應用端他學科其實也不僅局限在科技領域他甚至還有法學的問題侯次長可能最清楚還有社會學的問題所以本席認為說中研院跟國科會在學研的方面我們應該清楚電機AI跨領域研究的基礎理論"},{"start":4792.003,"end":4806.578,"text":"來引領研究者投入更深的研究想要請教中研院還有國科會我們未來在AI基礎的研究上我們會呈現什麼樣的跨領域的研究會建立什麼樣的學門"},{"start":4808.035,"end":4834.246,"text":"好 謝謝林委員這一點我想我們就是我們要再做訓練剛才在報告裡面我們要跨領域比如說我們的人文的學者過去不懂AI現在我們就要訓練他我們一直也在開很多的課請他們助理們也要去上另外我們也請我們院內資訊人員協助他們在做這些AI方面的訓練從兩方面來做"},{"start":4836.187,"end":4862.634,"text":"好 就是有一直在努力就對了我想我們在這邊看見這個AI的浪潮這個席捲全球這個時刻我們各學科的領域都有人投入深入研究像清大這個林勤副教授他就在中研院的這個法學期刊有撰文分析歐盟的AI基本法那接續我前面提到的法治的問題本席認為國科會跟中研院我們應該真的很努力來"},{"start":4863.374,"end":4885.829,"text":"進行實證的研究具體在這個AI的這個議題提供修法跟立法的建議讓學研跟修法可以持續交流對話那進而可以被司法來作為裁判的依據那我們回到這一次的主題之一就是學門的建構與應用本席認為在這邊我們相關學門的建構我們"},{"start":4888.871,"end":4911.874,"text":"最後指向其實是應用那重點就在實際應用所以本席作為一個立法者我們的幕僚常常會在研讀各種法學的這個研究成果也參考這個來作為修法的建議來提出修法所以本席要在這裡具體的建議這個AI的法律研究應該要突破單純的分析比較法的視野"},{"start":4912.415,"end":4936.558,"text":"就如我前面所說的要跟這個立法的實務有更多的對話那簡單來說像中研院跟國科會我們做出的研究就應該要實質能建議給AI跟數位的主管機關跟立法院所以在這裡想要了解我們中研院國科會跟數法部對於我剛提到這個看法你們有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":4937.604,"end":4959.784,"text":"好謝謝林委員的建議我們其實在兩年前就成立了這個法律方面的風險小組由我們在座的法律所的陳所長林所長來負責那我們就都會固定去盤點哪些的會碰到的法律問題我希望未來可能有機會會跟國會來做進一步的交流謝謝"},{"start":4961.727,"end":4974.777,"text":"那郭科威跟委員報告我們其實不只是指法律啦郭科威這邊所支持的一些研究的成果只要跟各部會有關係的有幫助的我們都會轉請各部會做參考"},{"start":4978.16,"end":4993.332,"text":"那在法律這一塊其實我們跟中央人員也有很多密切的合作那其實有一些對法規的就像說人工智慧基本法這一塊我們其實已經有很多的研究討論那其實都有提供給速發部做參考是好"},{"start":4994.173,"end":5018.959,"text":"那最後我再談一個實際應用的問題就是我們今天的主題之一就是數位透明度那這個對應到我國AI基本法的這個宣示原則之一就是透明與可解釋性簡單來說就是當AI做出一個決策那我們必須要能交代它的這個演算過程跟理由那如果任何在我國落地的AI應用沒辦法滿足這樣的需求"},{"start":5020.779,"end":5038.828,"text":"這樣如果這樣產生爭議的話那怎麼可能會導致要去打官司這會勢必會引起很大的問題所以談到透明的我覺得我們不只需要這個演算法跟決策過程的透明我覺得也需要資料的透明甚至說是事後的清楚標示"},{"start":5039.548,"end":5058.372,"text":"那前陣子本市有向國安局提出一些書面質詢那詢問國安局是否具備以AI對抗AI的能力那針對這個現在快速傳播這些惡意的這個所謂的身為內容要如何的緊急處分"},{"start":5059.433,"end":5078.608,"text":"國安局是回覆本席說國安局會研究導入AI代理人的技術來強化偵測、辨識AI生成內容及帳號群控等行為國安局說他也或許可以借鑒歐盟的法制強化相關法源"},{"start":5080.269,"end":5105.559,"text":"來促使社群平台業者能善盡企業的責任以法來標註錯假訊息審查下架不實的影音本席看來這個重點在於國家安全的守護搭配我國AI基本法的透明與可解釋性的原則我就應該要有辦法來針對令人頭痛的AI生成錯假訊息來進行處理比如說強制標註"},{"start":5109.64,"end":5129.169,"text":"就是要求他生成這個解釋他的生成過程那後端喔就當然來審查下架那配合AI基本法第五條政府應避免人工智慧之應用有破壞國家安全等等的情勢喔那所以請教侯次長就是說台灣面對這種日益嚴峻的這種資訊戰"},{"start":5132.671,"end":5154.26,"text":"速發部怎麼樣跟國安單位來配合來研擬這個相關的政策來對抗這個不利於我們台灣的這個國家他們的錯假訊息的散佈跟委員報告我們就這個A案生成內容錯假訊息還有標示這個議題目前由部長他"},{"start":5155.7,"end":5180.7,"text":"亲自处理那并和各个这个主要的这个大型平台还有生成是AI的主要的提供服务商去做讨论那也已经召开会议那我们现在得到的这个反馈就我所知各个平台他们其实都愿意往这个主动标示的这个方向去做推进"},{"start":5183.121,"end":5199.127,"text":"国家安全确实是非常重要所以这个部分再请各单位多加努力谢谢主席谢谢林一锦委员的质询请官员回座接下来有请郭玉琴委员询答"},{"start":5205.1,"end":5219.097,"text":"好 谢谢主席然后有请国防会陈副主委然后还有众议院的彭副院长还有出发部的侯司长谢谢请机关代表到备训台谢谢"},{"start":5220.851,"end":5235.618,"text":"三位早安我想這個問題應該是跨部會所以把你們三個先叫上來不好意思我想今天要談四個三個主題所以核心重點就再問一件事情就是台灣的AI到底有沒有一套真正的國家的戰略"},{"start":5236.258,"end":5255.313,"text":"那我為什麼要這麼說呢我想第一部分AI其實不是三塊的拼圖那剛剛也提到它應該是一個所謂的系統那目前其實台灣的AI發展大致分為三塊那我來敘述一下不曉得對不對三位可以指教那我想國科會是做科研模型跟學門"},{"start":5256.394,"end":5273.375,"text":"然後再來中研院我們做的是學術的標準還有倫理的部分那術發部的部分我們是做應用資料跟治理我想這個應該沒有錯這個三個部分那看起來這個分工其實是很清楚啦但是其實我想要問的是我們擔心就是各做各的"},{"start":5273.775,"end":5301.463,"text":"那沒有整合那我舉幾個比較實際的一個例子我想學門其實是傳統的分科但是AI其實剛剛已經委員也特別提到它所謂的是跨領域的那另外在倫理的部分目前大部分我們都是用指引的方式但並沒有真正的所謂的制度那AI已經進入到了這個政府跟產業但是在透明的機制上可能還沒有辦法完全的補足那沒有辦法完全跟上"},{"start":5301.823,"end":5322.797,"text":"那從研究一直到應用這中間銜接的責任目前為止大家感覺好像還不是那麼的清楚那我首先想請教的是目前有沒有一個所謂的跨部會的統整的機制然後再來就是到底是誰來做最後的決策這個選擇我們大致上是怎麼樣分的好請教"},{"start":5324.847,"end":5342.973,"text":"跟委員報告目前行政院我們有一個叫做三政委平台我們叫做法治名詞我就不是記得很清楚但是是由國發會主委國科會主委還有法治政委三個政委是共同主持的一個會議會去做一個跨部會的一個協商"},{"start":5343.453,"end":5358.842,"text":"所以它只是一個會議而已嗎它是一個協商平台協商平台那最後的決策那最後的決策都會是怎麼樣來最後的決策其實還是回到行政院應該是由行政院這邊來做做最後決策好那我再問一個更關鍵的一個問題好了"},{"start":5360.523,"end":5388.788,"text":"那我想這個AI已經進入所謂的高風險的一個領域啦比方說像是公共治理醫療法律還有現在所謂的這個倫理的一個規範那我想還停留在所謂的這個學界的自律那問題是將來這個會不會讓它制度化我比方說像是分級的一些制度的管理啦或者是強制的風險的一個評估那政府在使用AI的時候我們需不需要隨時向民眾來做揭露那目前有沒有一個比較明確"},{"start":5389.588,"end":5416.894,"text":"或者是一個進程還有規劃的這個整個所有的這個就是行程大概是怎麼樣是跟委員報告就這個各個部會主管機關去對產業做的這個規範我們就是會透過風險分類框架去協助各部會做盤點那在這個政府機關沒有強制對不對這個部分是目前沒有強制"},{"start":5418.854,"end":5437.267,"text":"應該說我們的只是一個指引對是指引但是各個部會都積極在配合對我們都在非常這個平凡的在溝通跟協作的過程中那有一個就是基本法裡面設定的時間點是這個兩年嘛"},{"start":5439.308,"end":5460.792,"text":"但是有一些比較重要的就是說風險比較明確的我想會在比較快的時間底下會有一個比較早的決定就是有一些部會他們可能會比較早完成整個法規的修訂另外在政府機關的部分"},{"start":5461.652,"end":5477.745,"text":"速發部的這個數位政府司也在協助政府機關去做這個內控的部分那個這個我們也在積極進行當中那應該是法規底下也是基本法也是要求附帶決議是要求六個月內六個月內對對好"},{"start":5479.386,"end":5502.187,"text":"好那再来接下来第二个部分我想要问的是这个主权AI的核心就是刚刚其实有几位委员有特别提到就是所谓的语料跟这个资料的主权主导权这个部分那我想呢谈到这个台德我从2024年其实一直在追啦那我一直在强调的一句话就是说主权AI它不只是模型它其实也是包含资源"},{"start":5502.467,"end":5525.958,"text":"資料、算力還有長期的維運那現在其實我們面對一個比較現實的一個狀況是我們看到這個台灣的合法的語料大概是100GB那另外在日本其實大概是25pp那全球的中文的語料90%是來自於中國那換句話來說我們在用AI"},{"start":5526.638,"end":5549.299,"text":"可是資料的主權居然不在自己的手上我想這個部分大家都會有一些隱憂我想這個問題是不管是語料模型應用還是分三邊在做語料是書發部那內容的部分應該是中研院對不對那模型的部分是國科會好又來了這個三個感覺都分工都很細"},{"start":5549.98,"end":5568.862,"text":"但問題是我們現在在講的是中間會不會缺少一條所謂的整體的戰略的主軸那這個部分請問誰來回答我一下目前我們到底有沒有主權AI的整體的戰略的整合的機制然後再來我們又是怎麼樣三個部會是怎麼樣來做分工協作的 來"},{"start":5570.224,"end":5585.701,"text":"其實這一塊雖然是分三個單位在做其實我們是一起在努力啦所以模型這一塊雖然是國科會在主導但是其實我們也是跟中研院在合作在做開發跟推動那既然是三個部分都有在做"},{"start":5586.021,"end":5602.044,"text":"三個部會我們都有在做那請問我們這個具體的一些雨料的建設的一個目標啦我要問一下這個目標了我們要做到多少量我們要幾年完成然後再來我們能不能夠支撐下一代的這個模型的部分這個誰可以回答我"},{"start":5603.79,"end":5617.238,"text":"跟委員報告這個語料的部分我們在法規上有非常大的限制我想這個委員也應該清楚因為台灣的駐作權法的這個規定還有合理使用我們在這個"},{"start":5620.78,"end":5647.592,"text":"數位部現在在草擬這個資料創新發展利用條例底下希望有一些能夠有一些突破那我們現在也在積極溝通當中那另外就是說我們目前能做的是透過語料庫的建立設計一定的授權機制那首先邀請各部會來提供語料那另外今年開始我們也邀請民間廠商能夠依據這個授權機制來把他們的語料放進這個主權語料庫裡面那當然"},{"start":5651.573,"end":5665.349,"text":"希望能夠持續推進如果在法規上面有更大的突破有沒有預計什麼時程可以完成或者是完成多少的目標那另外剛剛有提到所謂的語料的部分其實包含我們現在講語料"},{"start":5666.51,"end":5687.259,"text":"大部分是所謂的這個科普跟學科啦科普跟學科但是問題是我們有很大很重要的一個關鍵是產業資料跟實務上的一個資料我們怎麼樣讓這個部分也能夠進入到所謂的AI的訓練有沒有一些制度或有一些誘因能夠來吸引所謂的這個這樣子的一個方向啦"},{"start":5688.4,"end":5709.317,"text":"是跟委员报告就是有关于这个雨料库呢速发布在去年年底的时候12月24号之后公布上线那目前的雨料量是1.2billion tokens那当然我们是雨料库的这个升级我们是先从中央政府开始那在今年呢年初的时候呢我们就朝地方政府迈进所以会有很多这个在地的雨料一起进来"},{"start":5709.697,"end":5734.991,"text":"那我们在今年下半年会针对民间的这个雨调开始进行征集所以我们是有系统有步骤的方式来扩大我们的雨调量那我觉得这个雨调是没有止境的一天了我们会努力的不断的把这个雨调量扩大那有没有定期的一个盘点那这个盘点的一些资讯是不是可以公开可以提供然后再来有没有变成一个所谓的这个成效评估的一个机制就是它变成一个可以一直不断的被复制一直不断的被修正这样子的一个机制对委员的建议非常好"},{"start":5735.251,"end":5752.163,"text":"就是说我们在中央跟地方政府这个部分我们都有开工作坊请他们来进行定期的盘点那我们在年底的时候呢我会有一个评奖的机制所谓的机制大概是多久就是大概就是说我们大概每两三个月就请他们盘一次那盘一次我们会以协作的方式把他们的请他们把资料放到这个预料库上面来"},{"start":5752.623,"end":5774.071,"text":"那我們在年底的時候呢我也有個評獎的一個機制看看中央跟地方政府還有民間團體他們這個努力的成果會有一個頒獎的機制這樣如果有一些比較具體的一些計畫就像您剛剛所說的這些內容其實是很豐富的那這些具體的計畫可以再提供給我辦公室嗎可以 我們會整理一份資料給委員辦公室參考好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5776.51,"end":5805.49,"text":"好 谢谢郭益群委员的咨询请官员回座接下来有请陈秀宝委员进行询答谢谢主席我这边先请国科会陈副主委好 请国科会陈副主委上备训坛谢谢我很早"},{"start":5806.62,"end":5830.499,"text":"副主委好我们先来关心一下有关于台师大体操教练涉及这个霸凌这个案子那昨天呢台师大呢已经做出停聘两年的这个处分那目前会向这个处分呢先送到教育部来审议那真的这个部分呢在这边想请教国科会目前有没有收到学校的通报学校通报有"},{"start":5836.636,"end":5853.025,"text":"有嗎?有收到嗎?包委員目前還沒有那我想請教未來學校通報之後你們會不會有相關停止補助或是撤換主持人這些處理?我們會依據我們的作業要點去做處置但是作業要點裡面有規範嗎?"},{"start":5863.506,"end":5876.292,"text":"國科會這邊給本席的資料就是說這位涉及霸凌的案子的體操教練現在有兩個案子在執行中就是國科會的計畫一件是到明年一件是到今年底那目前這個計畫還在執行中嗎"},{"start":5881.052,"end":5908.004,"text":"目前才执行中那国科会会不会在惩处确认之后有进一步的处理后续处理是什么您是说会根据要点来做处理但是呢针对我们国科会的这个补助计划要点我们来讨论一下目前要点里面只有针对违反性平相关法规那经主管机关查证属实之后国科会呢会召开专案小组审议是否暂停补助或是撤换计划主持人"},{"start":5908.644,"end":5929.575,"text":"但是針對現在校園裡面比較會有狀況的除了性平之外就是霸凌事件要點裡面並沒有針對霸凌事件有相關召開專案小組審議的這個機制喔那所以剛才您說要針對這個這個案子我們會按照要點來處置那你們現在做法是什麼"},{"start":5931.847,"end":5958.889,"text":"報告委員就是目前依據我們要點裡面有規定如果經過學校或者是教育部這邊確定相關的處分那計畫主持人他沒有辦法因故無法執行的話那執行機構必須要辦理計畫中止或更換主持人所以要點裡面並不是說去規範說他是違反了什麼而只是說他因為這些處置而沒有辦法執行的時候你們就會更換或者說是的是的"},{"start":5960.407,"end":5963.73,"text":"在這邊其實本席要建議國科會要參照教師法第14條及第15條的規定針對需要對教師體罰學生或是霸凌的規範我們應該把相關的規範放進我們的要點裡面因為如果經過主管機關查證署時"},{"start":5983.888,"end":6008.124,"text":"那其實在國科會的部分呢這個部分不管是事件成立審議的過程國科會是不介入的但是你要針對就是說查證屬實的這個案件涉案的教師我們做出計畫終止或是策劃這個決議所以我們是不是可以把霸凌處置的這個機制放進去要點裡面我們來做到落實霸凌零容忍這個可以嗎我們回去會再做研議是不是"},{"start":6009.006,"end":6025.025,"text":"因為現在在針對校園裡面比較大家非常重視而且現在就是比較多比較嚴重的就是性評跟霸凌的事件所以會建議說我們國科會要把這個相關的這個規範放進去你們的這個要點裡面這樣會更明確而不是說"},{"start":6025.846,"end":6055.166,"text":"他如果经过学校的或者是相关会议的他的查证属实之后你们是针对他对他的惩处结果来做这样的处置但是其实他如果我们把这个相关的规范放进去的话就是很明确了这个你们再演绎一下那这边我也要提醒就是说针对违法要点张处分不管是撤换或者是一定期间不可再申请的这些主持人我们应该要有相关的资料库"},{"start":6056.106,"end":6082.352,"text":"把這些資料建置起來當申請人或是有其他子計劃需要尋找主持人的計劃的時候有可以依循的資料那也避免有受管制的這個狀況這個可以嗎報告我們其實已經有類似的資料庫在做處理是已經有那好這個部分就是你們已經有先做這樣子的措施謝謝那接下來我先再請述發部侯次長"},{"start":6090.629,"end":6117.243,"text":"次長好我想請教次長好AI基本法在去年底已經三讀通過市面上開始就有很多販售越來越多的這些號稱具有AI功能的產品本席想針對這些AI產品有相關的問題請教來釐清市面上有許多號稱有AI功能的產品像我們現在通影片上面的家電產品很多就是會標榜它是AI"},{"start":6118.704,"end":6147.147,"text":"次長您這邊看一下說本席投影片上面這些目前上說是存在就是販售的AI產品你們覺得有哪些是真正有運用到AI的科技謝謝委員委員提出的這個問題其實非常非常的這個重要那其實沒有辦法從這個行銷廣告上面他說是AI我們就直接認定是AI所以"},{"start":6148.408,"end":6167.658,"text":"我想必須要透過這個人工智慧基本法裡面這個的定義那我們在人工智慧基本法裡面的定義應該是有自主運行能力的系統然後透過機器學習演算法針對明確或隱含目標實現預測內容建議或決策影響實體或虛擬環境的產出"},{"start":6176.923,"end":6193.642,"text":"市长您的回答就是这个AIT本法的规范AI的定义它就是要包含自主运行能力那机器可以学习跟演算那也可以产出影响实体或虚拟环境之预测内容建议或决策但是呢如同刚才我们所说的"},{"start":6193.942,"end":6220.921,"text":"就觀看相片圖片或是說它上面寫了AI其實我們很難去判斷它是不是真的有這些功能但其實這些產品它不用寫AI它本身就是一個很好用的家電了那你冠上AI其實對消費者來講他會覺得說他沒有辦法理解說它本來就是很基本功能的像滑鼠還是吹風機它冠上AI之後對它的使用性實用性或者影響在哪裡那對民眾來講它"},{"start":6223.643,"end":6248.216,"text":"感受到最大的差別是只要冠上AI兩個字好像價格就會提高這很明顯的會讓我們的消費者權益受損他會多花冤枉錢那為什麼在這邊提出就是說他廠商他可以任意的在他的產品上面放AI這兩個字嗎就這個部分來說我不太確定這個就是"},{"start":6249.46,"end":6272.847,"text":"是不是有涉及這個不實廣告的部分市長這邊要跟您討論就是說我們剛才有提到了就是AI基本法裡面有規定AI的定義有三個要點那這些宣稱有相關的AI科技的相關產品是不是一定要符合這些要件它才能說它是AI的產品"},{"start":6276.206,"end":6291.661,"text":"就是說它如果不符合我們剛才講的自主運行能力或是可以學習演算相關的這些功能它是不是應該不能標榜它是AI的產品委員就我目前所知似乎沒有法律明確這樣子強制"},{"start":6294.417,"end":6319.759,"text":"好那我現在要給你們的建議就是說進來我們AI基本法已經三讀通過對於AI的定義也已經很明確就是我們剛剛講的那個三個要件那希望說我們相關的部會是不是也可以協助這些相關AI科技的應用那是不是有民眾建議說它可以像節能標章一樣是有申請有認證來保障消費者權益的次長您覺得呢"},{"start":6321.744,"end":6336.756,"text":"这部分我想会跟各个主管机关去做讨论也跟委员报告因为人工智慧基本法第三条虽然这样子定义但是因为这个技术一直在"},{"start":6337.577,"end":6364.856,"text":"发展当中而且目前变化非常的快在不同的领域里面到底怎么去定义它已经有自主运行能力我觉得在各个领域里面对技术的评估可能会不太一样是不是能够透过标章的方式我想我们会去做讨论和研究"},{"start":6365.416,"end":6389.981,"text":"我想我本席在這邊提出這樣子的一個疑問的時候市長你本身也會覺得說好像這個他說他是AI那到底是不是還是只是他只是具備基本的這樣產品必須具備的功能而已但他只是因為就有登上這個熱潮他就是放上AI兩個字當然讓消費者他也無所適從他也無法辨別然後因為這樣子他多花了錢"},{"start":6391.361,"end":6406.293,"text":"當有這樣子的疑慮產生的時候這邊提醒的是會希望說我們跟國科會跟經濟部我們是共同來演繹剛才有民眾建議的說我們用一個標章或是說一個申請的認證來保護消費者"},{"start":6408.174,"end":6431.83,"text":"也讓這些相關的家電啊電器的產品他們在生產的時候他們因為是需要透過認證或申請或一個這樣的程序他們在他們的產品精益求精嘛如果說想要讓民眾覺得說我的東西更好用我想要有AI這樣的功能他必須去研發而不是說輕易的把這樣子的稱謂灌上去之後他就可以得到消費者的支持"},{"start":6432.25,"end":6458.801,"text":"您覺得呢謝謝委員的意見我覺得這個方向我們會去跟各部會在這個風險分類框架底下去做這個討論和這個所謂就是委員剛剛提出來的這個不論是標章認證還是能量登錄這種方式應該是在各個可能的就是因應措施裡面必須要被考慮的"},{"start":6459.381,"end":6479.049,"text":"那就麻烦市长您在跟国客会或经济部你们有演绎出来有一个初步的结论的时候可以把你们报告给我办公室好的谢谢委员谢谢谢谢陈秀宝委员的质询请官员回座接下来有请陈培宇委员进行询答好谢谢主席"},{"start":6487.708,"end":6514.031,"text":"有請次長 國科會副主委還有抒發部次長謝謝好 請期官代表上備訊台好 副主委還有次長早安我想我還是要問一樣的事情但是我們來更新一下你們目前最新的進度第一個是關於AI十大建設在國發會裡面已經公布了114到117年十大建設推動方案"},{"start":6514.591,"end":6537.492,"text":"那根据国发会的这个十大建设方案的指导里面第七点有提到主权AI还有算力建设的部分我相信两位学者专家你们虽然现在在公部门服务但是你们来自民间的专业你们一定认同大家现在在说的算力及国力但是我相信两位应该也知道另外一个事情可能这句话只讲对了一半"},{"start":6538.112,"end":6557.642,"text":"因為呢在最近一次四月多在總統府有一個關於跟民間學者這個頒獎的活動上有非常多做開放資料的人直接跟賴總統建議他們說什麼呢我不確定兩位有沒有follow到這個事情例如說有一個叫open放的創辦人他就說"},{"start":6559.103,"end":6577.534,"text":"AI是日益强大的引擎而资料则是驱动引擎运转的石油对吧所以刚刚郭玉琴委员也问到关于资料的部分而另外一个在做开放资料的呢开放文化基金会里面他们也说了主权不该只是放在两岸议题上"},{"start":6578.394,"end":6607.031,"text":"資料也是一種主權第二個他們說以前我們關於資料想的是文本思維現在在看的是資料思維第三個下一個階段不只是監督政府而是要邀請民間一起協作所以我要回過頭來看AI十大建設裡面其中有一個是國發會提醒大家的要做政府及民間資料的釋出我相信你們兩個應該都非常清楚可是我們要問"},{"start":6607.771,"end":6626.549,"text":"现在我认为在民间资料的释出其实可能比公部门遇到的资料释出还要面临更大的困难对不对我想要先请次长你来说说看关于民间资料的部分目前你们述发部是如何看待现在可能遇到的困难还有你们掌握了多少的进度跟可能性"},{"start":6627.27,"end":6644.676,"text":"是 跟委員報告委員剛剛提到的在總統府的那一個會議只是這個書法部主協助的這個IT Matters的頒獎那我在我也在場那其實當場"},{"start":6647.077,"end":6670.424,"text":"總統就指示我們根據各個剛剛您提到的發言必須要再去做追蹤和研究那確實在民間資料的部分我想有幾個比較現實上面的影響第一個的問題是著作權法底下到底就是"},{"start":6671.584,"end":6698.341,"text":"算不算训练或是产出在什么条件底下算是合理使用这件事情一直不明确那跟国外的状况比较的话台湾因为刑事责任被使用的比较多的关系因此确实会有这个寒蝉效应就是训练者会对于去利用训练资料感到非常比较"},{"start":6700.682,"end":6708.91,"text":"那這是一個我們看到現實上的障礙但是當然也很重要就是我們怎麼樣在就是"},{"start":6711.158,"end":6732.712,"text":"在保障這個內容這個權利人的方面我們必須要取得一個重要的一個平衡那這中間有一些比較細緻的線還有這個就是內容的利用方式在什麼條件底下會不一樣這個我們都希望能夠有更明確的界定"},{"start":6733.212,"end":6754.344,"text":"那在AI新十大建设底下刚刚委员所提到的那一个项目是由抒发部这边主责那也邀请智慧财产局去负责关于民间资料有著作权的资料到底能不能被利用这个部分去做负责那这个部分就"},{"start":6755.785,"end":6774.769,"text":"经济部制裁局给我们的意见是说给我们的资讯是他们应该会在今年的5月的时候会有一个指引出来那我们希望透过这样的指引能够提供比较明确的利用的界限那抒发部目前已经在做能做的"},{"start":6775.169,"end":6793.724,"text":"是第一個就是語料庫透過這個授權的方式來明定這個授權資料的利用的方式那包括剛剛說的政府機關那民間的力量呢我們也已經召開工作方邀請一些可能參與的民間單位一起來提供"},{"start":6794.324,"end":6822.276,"text":"那所以這兩個部分是我們已經持續在做的那我們也持續在盤點還有哪些可能釋出的語料那也希望能夠提供一個在我們提供的這個資料利用創新條例底下草擬中的這個條例底下我們也設計了新的資料分享的機制就是民間跟民間之間資料分享的機制那我們也跟"},{"start":6823.737,"end":6840.894,"text":"歐盟那邊的資料空間這樣子的做法去做產業界之間的資料的共享希望能夠推動這樣的機制出來我花了這麼多時間讓市長您說清楚就是我認為市長您在從民間轉換到公部門"},{"start":6842.415,"end":6842.475,"text":"但是"},{"start":6858.97,"end":6876.664,"text":"從這個肯定我們往下看確實之前抒發部長林益靜接受專訪的時候在去年的9月她也說我們確實要號召民間自願捐出內容打造台灣主權AI訓練的語料庫這件事情才可以"},{"start":6877.244,"end":6903.592,"text":"打包足够多的资料百万本的资料1TB的资料给国际科技巨头可以使用台湾的资料降低资料使用的门槛回到所谓的云端上的台湾的主权的这个议题上我认为现在确实如何透过制裁局的合作透过民间团体或是所有这些拥有内容的人"},{"start":6904.372,"end":6932.422,"text":"他們如何願意join在這個所謂的數位國家內容的台灣隊好了他們如何願意join進來確實上一次在一樣在交融化委員會我就直接請問了國科會的主委那主委也說他絕對支持而且他也絕對明白資料基礎建設的重要性但是如果我們光談授權他會是一個漫無止境的道路而且如同你所說的"},{"start":6933.562,"end":6948.835,"text":"資料授權的那個授權費用現在沒有人知道怎麼算其實不是只有台灣全世界皆然對吧就像泰勒斯大家所熟悉的泰勒斯這兩天還在主張他的聲聞權利好所以對我來說談授權"},{"start":6950.717,"end":6971.636,"text":"非常沉重非常困難所以上一次國科會主委他的說法是說但是民間擁有這些資料的人公司也好團體也好所有人也好他們如何把資料變成來下一張把資料變成是所謂乾淨的資料這件事情其實是一個大工程而且需要大筆的預算"},{"start":6972.577,"end":6994.094,"text":"那有沒有可能在內容國家隊的這個成立這個內容國家隊前提之下由國科會也好 國發會也好 數發部也好甚至協同文化部我們開始把各式各樣擁有內容資料的人協助他們做資料的優化 資料的清洗然後做出結構定位 甚至做出"},{"start":6995.155,"end":7018.083,"text":"適合機器人讀取的標籤這是一個龐大的工程需要龐大的預算需要龐大的政府資源的支持所以我上一次問國科會主委他的說法是說他表示他願意會去想辦法來解決我想問一下國科會目前在這個議題上上一次我問完之後主委有沒有帶回去討論跟做進一步的規劃怎麼說"},{"start":7019.443,"end":7034.481,"text":"大家都以為資料只有平面的或者是文字性的資料可是當我們去研究世界各國在取用世界各國這些大圓模型在取用資料的時候從來都不是只有文字也不會只有照片我舉一個例子"},{"start":7035.502,"end":7053.043,"text":"廣播聲音要不要用當然要還有台灣的累積的自己累積的長年累積的藝術文化這些表演的內容要不要取用絕對是要因為它有豐富的台灣文化背景台灣基礎的邏輯基本上跟世界各國是不一樣的"},{"start":7053.624,"end":7077.103,"text":"那現場還有烏斯亞委員他也非常在意台灣的藝術跟文化所有這些藝術文化的data在未來如何在雲端上不要被其他國家的文化給稀釋掉了台灣專門的雲門舞集這個是重要的國際團隊而這個國際團隊他所背上台灣的文化所發展出的演出也好聲音也好所有的資料未來如何"},{"start":7077.563,"end":7104.691,"text":"加入台湾国家队获得合理的对待然后把它变成是一个台湾内容国家队的一个重要基础绝对我认为是所有教育文化委员会的委员会关心的议题所以我要再次强调一百万本只是我们用来计算方便的一个可沟通语言但是我相信两位主管你们一定知道我讲的绝对不会只有平面资料我讲的包含声音影像广播照片文字"},{"start":7105.111,"end":7123.249,"text":"甚至是各式各樣我們在民間例如說台灣特有的烤肉文化這可能走到全世界都沒有當我們到中秋節的時候我們就會看到那個金蘭烤肉醬的廣告就跑出來了那變台灣人特殊的記憶而這個東西如何被你們在共同打包的過程當中也被放進去它需要我現在投影片上的這些工程"},{"start":7124.23,"end":7149.132,"text":"所以我非常感谢上次国科会主委他立刻明白同时他立刻承诺他会回去编列预算找到相关的支援跟支持所以我也很想知道目前为止你们规划的进度到哪边请国科会副主委还在规划当中好 没关系副主委这样好不好我们办公室会持续跟你们沟通因为我们来看下一张"},{"start":7150.56,"end":7177.25,"text":"我知道其實根據AI基本法再下一張根據AI基本法國科會這邊必須要組成人工智慧戰略特別委員會對吧好那你們現在委員會成立在即我現在看到你們現在給我們辦公室的回覆是說委員會的設置要點還沒有完成那現在也都還不知道結果可是如果看你們現在給我們的說法你們目前只有邀請人工智慧相關的學者專家民間團體產業代表"},{"start":7179.431,"end":7202.573,"text":"可是我不知道你們有沒有把所謂手上有內容的這些人各式各樣的人聲音廣播電視電影文字照片這些人有沒有被你們視為重要的委員會的成員所謂這些手上有內容的人不管是各個工協會的代表或是重要團體的代表甚至你們是不是應該要召開關於內容產業的民間座談會讓"},{"start":7204.315,"end":7221.468,"text":"所有手上有内容的这些人意识到说国家看到你们了而且国家在建立AI十大基础建设上很需要各位的协助因为连赖总统都亲自指示树发部跟国科会了我想听听看你们目前关于跟内容产业的合作层面的规划是什么"},{"start":7222.914,"end":7236.506,"text":"這邊我們應該會列入參考謝謝好會列入參考那我們辦公室再持續跟你們溝通好嗎好來所以最後我想給的建議第一個我希望你們未來三年內就預算的部分就政策的部分如何協助所有的內容產業以"},{"start":7239.165,"end":7256.833,"text":"資料轉換到AI可讀的格式的這個邏輯工作邏輯工作流程去想像如何在3到5年內實現1TB餘料庫的這件事情跟國外的這些大語言模型公司合作讓雲端上的台灣不會被消失這件事情非常重要"},{"start":7257.313,"end":7278.286,"text":"第二个我也希望你们积极的跟文化部也好或是经济部制裁局甚至是文策院手上所有内容的这些产业都必须要有机会加入人工智慧战略特别委员会我认为来自内容产业的人声音非常重要我上次还举了一个例子你现在去问AI没有人知道无成文竹"},{"start":7278.706,"end":7303.238,"text":"主委打過威廉波特棒球隊這個事情非常的可惜所以我想如同兩位剛剛的回覆非常的積極我們就後續期待我們一起來規劃一起來推進相關工程好嗎好謝謝好最後一個那書發部次長先請回我問一下國科會副主委我們也看到國科會在去年開始推動運動文化的研究專案非常謝謝國科會在導入運動議題"},{"start":7306.24,"end":7331.932,"text":"在所谓国科会推动的研究当中目前我们看到你们规划三大主轴九个议题我就不再细念了那我们看到最后核准成案有七个案子第一个是在地的体育运动文化跟历史一共核准了四个案子第二个是关于运动媒体跟消费文化创新还有社会影响这非常重要两个案子再来是关于运动人才培育制度的创新很棒有一个案子"},{"start":7332.412,"end":7360.598,"text":"可是我觉得很可惜我要先说非常肯定你们的努力也谢谢你们把运动文化消费文化人才培育放进去但是我们现在看到里面有一些缺漏我不确定是因为没有人送案所以没有通过还是因为有人送案但是最后没有被审出来就是第一个关于运动性平的部分第二个是关于运动当中的劳动权益再来第三个非常重要是关于运动当中的儿少权益相关的三大主轴九个议题"},{"start":7361.198,"end":7373.631,"text":"看起來應該有機會喊誇我今天所提醒的所以我想請副主委回答一下是沒有人遞案還是因為有人遞案但是你們覺得還不夠好所以沒有往下發展包委我請處長幫忙回答好 謝謝"},{"start":7377.128,"end":7389.847,"text":"報告委員有關於性平跟兒少的部分確實提案的團隊比較少那有關於勞動的部分應該在其中有關於媒體那個部分應該會涉及有關於那個運動相關的勞動產業"},{"start":7392.671,"end":7408.95,"text":"那我想確實很有可能就是我們猜對了比較少人提案但是我想國科會應該有一個角度可以做我們可以去找相關的學者鼓勵他們在來年當中可以持續提案那你們可以有更多政策上的鼓勵好不好我們把兒少權益還有運動性品納入可以嗎"},{"start":7409.611,"end":7428.22,"text":"好 谢谢好 再一题就是前两天有一个台师大体操队翁世航教练的霸凌事件性平事件谢谢 我就不再说但我知道翁教练他有申请一个国科会的题目叫做完美翻腾精准论的科学化竞技体操训练跟监控我现在不确定在他这个研究案当中"},{"start":7428.78,"end":7440.937,"text":"有沒有利用這個研究案獲得相關研究成果但是這中間有一些關於學生的參與的部分是不當處置對待的目前國科會有沒有去掌握這個研究案的進度跟相關我剛剛所提出的問題"},{"start":7443.671,"end":7464.37,"text":"跟委員報告翁老師他目前所執行的計畫都是在18歲以上的作為對象我們都確認過其實他目前這些計畫都有通過IRB目前我們並沒有獲得說這裡頭是不是有不當詮釋的意見的反應"},{"start":7467.293,"end":7487.219,"text":"如果就18歲以上的部分大概就避開了所謂小師大但是也有做了IRB的部分但是我想如果未來有沒有聽到任何他如果在這過程當中對18歲以上的選手的一些不當對待結果被納入了變成這個研究的一部分我想國科會還是要持續關注所以我想關於剛剛我們希望可以推動下一張推動關於運動當中的"},{"start":7489.9,"end":7508.473,"text":"運動性品的研究而受的研究就拜託國科會持續支持並且多加推廣希望有更多的專家學者可以來提案再來就是校園中各項學術研究計畫如果有不當對待權勢壓迫取得的研究素材也要拜託國科會這邊嚴謹把關那如果有相關的報告跟進度再拜託提供給我們辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":7509.393,"end":7533.121,"text":"好那最後要拜託那個國科會關於我剛講資料的部分我們一起努力喔我想不管是述發部或國科會我們確實要在內容國家對這件事情加緊腳步我舉個最近的例子也好現在有非常多台灣人會用AR模型做影片做的可能是講台灣的故事喔結果他用的聲音啊很無奈是"},{"start":7535.646,"end":7564.733,"text":"另外一種是中國的聲音中國的發音而且那個說法其實令人聽了很多人都覺得天哪為什麼AI會給我這個聲音很簡單因為現在很多AI語言模型上其實沒有台灣人的聲音所以我想兩位都非常清楚我們一起努力謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳培宇委員的質詢請官員回座那徵求一下那個吳佩儀委員是不是在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後可以休息五分鐘"},{"start":7567.403,"end":7582.246,"text":"可以吗?好,谢谢。那有请吴思瑶委员进行询答。好,谢谢主席。请中研院彭副院长、国科会陈副主委,还有述发部的侯次长。"},{"start":7583.528,"end":7599.335,"text":"好 請機關代表上備訊臺這個臺灣三大AI發展的三大龍頭都已經在這邊你們如果想要回答我覺得都可以主動爭取回答機會對不起 我的螢幕不見了時間暫停一下請稍等好今天我們站在這裡謝謝"},{"start":7608.594,"end":7628.115,"text":"謝謝我們召委所安排的因為各國都在研發主權AI的策略為了要確保人工智慧的技術自主性而且要減少對國外的依賴也因此維護國家經濟成長經濟發展以及國家安全的利益所以我們今天站在這裡"},{"start":7629.176,"end":7654.557,"text":"拼AI台湾要组成国家队以小博大下一页首先我非常感谢我还是要提一下我过去十度我在教育委员会的催生质询谢谢国科会谢谢中研院我们组成了让恢复国家的科技顾问制度能够恢复上路而这样一个重要的制度就是要为国家的"},{"start":7655.137,"end":7682.197,"text":"科技發展定矛定方向下一頁而三次召開的科技顧問會議確實也點出跟今天主題相符的AI驅動下世代的發展不管是在資料治理的環境不管是跟國際夥伴共同開發不管是確保國家安全跟營業秘密的AI資料的共享更重要的是人才的培育以及基礎"},{"start":7683.098,"end":7710.804,"text":"算力設施的投資這一個重要的科技國人會議就是定出我們主權AI的大方向那我們的AI教父黃仁勳說的上一波的AI浪潮推手是誰這些科技巨頭這些科技業這些AI的新創但是第二波的AI浪潮的推手就會是各國政府"},{"start":7711.621,"end":7729.197,"text":"所以对应于我们科技顾问会议确实也离定了国家重要的战略方向下叶这个是WEF的2024年他们公布的发展各国的主权AI他们定定了六大战略支柱"},{"start":7729.958,"end":7756.423,"text":"有數位基礎設施有勞動力的發展也就是人才儲備第三個支柱是研發開發與創新第四個就是監管道德框架可能落實在法規網路安全數據保護等等第五大支柱就是如何各國創立有利的環境來簡化必要的流程提供誘因激勵人工智慧相關的產業"},{"start":7757.543,"end":7779.453,"text":"最后一个当然各国谁能够赢得跟国际合作的Tegla leadership谁就能赢我想问三大龙头三大巨头你们自评我们今天的主题在讲台湾的主权AI我们就以WEF这六大战略支柱台湾强在哪里弱在哪里来副院长要不要先"},{"start":7780.333,"end":7798.769,"text":"好 謝謝吳偉快速回答大災問 但是我覺得很重要對 我們中議院我想我們能做的就是在這個六個戰力支柱下哪一個我們比較能夠著力的部分來先做我們不可能包山包海全部做那您覺得重點 我們優勢在哪裡"},{"start":7801.451,"end":7823.504,"text":"弱点在哪里我们优势就是我们拥有的资料库最近Google也想跟我们合作所以我们想说他对我们有兴趣的部分是哪里他的技术的是什么地方比我们厉害我们都在盘点这可能就是在台湾价值民主自由的那一方面我想Google跟我们接触这是我们的优势好来"},{"start":7825.322,"end":7841.728,"text":"我想我們的優勢還是在比較偏AI的硬體的方面這個是我們是很具有的優勢但是我們在所謂的系統層面應用的方面需求的這一塊我們其實還是比較沒有錯這也是我看到的問題好來次長"},{"start":7845.083,"end":7860.622,"text":"是 謝謝委員台灣在2017年開始AI Action Plan第一次的行動計畫那在2017年的時候當時科技部在人才還有硬體的部分去做了非常多的琢磨"},{"start":7861.423,"end":7882.786,"text":"那經過將近十年我想在這個部分硬體的成效非常非常明確就是現在台灣的AI Server在佔的這個全球的市佔率是九成以上那晶片來說也更不用說所以我們在硬體上面當然是非常強的但如何在這樣的基礎上去"},{"start":7884.335,"end":7904.307,"text":"就像委员标题所说的集体直追我想从去年开始政府在推动的重点就可以看出来第一个是在不用讲细节所以重点是我自己认为我们的硬体设施确实在布建国家也在投资但是我认为我们的人才"},{"start":7905.428,"end":7933.679,"text":"還是要補強以及我們在應用端要多強化這是我的觀察好下一頁我們來對應一下國會要做什麼AI基本法我們三讀通過了謝謝各黨的努力但是另外一個立法也需要國會來助力的就是你們速發部正在推動的促進資料創新利用發展條例這也是非常重要的一個立法我先從國會來切入你們現在進度到哪裡布版已經出來了嘛對不對"},{"start":7934.2,"end":7938.181,"text":"是草案已經在行政院了那你們有沒有push"},{"start":7939.113,"end":7966.127,"text":"有我们因为这个会期会送出来吗我们希望能够对我们希望能够在五六月能够通过宴会好非常期待好吗我想缺一不可就是刚刚的六大战略指标其中一个即使在法规监理的部分我们要跟上我就先以国会能帮忙国会要当神队友那下一个在硬体的部分政府确实投资了"},{"start":7966.767,"end":7991.756,"text":"AI新十大建设我们各方面从智慧应用关键技术到数位机盘我们有一个完整的建构这就是请国会要帮忙的地方好不容易我上上周站在这里那时候预算还没复为会影响到311亿的AI新十大建设预算希望国会来支持让我们都关心的尤其主权AI台湾不能输"},{"start":7992.296,"end":8010.553,"text":"就是要从预算面的支持下一页硬体部分我先来说谢谢大家共同的努力南科国网云端算力中心在去年底成立了我们也成立了民间一起来合作的台湾算力联盟所以算是到位了但是呢下一页"},{"start":8011.354,"end":8028.064,"text":"就是因為預算受了影響台南沙崙智慧創新算力中心我們表定的期程是2029年但是因為預算被拖了我非常擔心設計標沒有問題建築標現在在哪裡建築標現在的進程誰能回答"},{"start":8030.669,"end":8047.164,"text":"我請國防中心慢慢回答是目前因為現在目前在去年其實已經完成基本設計那現在正在辦理工程細部設計的作業那大概預計在五月底會五月會完成那在第三季的時候工程就會想要發包"},{"start":8047.825,"end":8071.57,"text":"所以第三季今年的第三季就可以顺利发包也当然期待我们115年度的预算还没省的12.3亿能够顺利好吗OK好那就是这个不能延宕我会全面持续再来监督下一个刚讲硬体现在讲软体这个Tide我过去2023年我当时的质询我们换广也换不均在整个文本"},{"start":8072.33,"end":8096.583,"text":"的采用所以数量少的文本而且领域不够多元当时都侧重在某些科技的领域在我不断的要求之下我谢谢你们再把文化我最关心文化艺术国家文化记忆库在文化部门的这些部分都放进来了现在就是扩充再扩充但是我也看到问题下一页我先问这个中研院我们这个态的系统"},{"start":8097.443,"end":8119.418,"text":"到现在我看到的应用端还是限于公务跟学术为主我们有没有更大的雄心壮志我们让全社会的普及应用商用的可能性而且多平台的使用我们有没有这样子的雄心壮志这部分请我们院内参与台德的同仁来回答"},{"start":8121.172,"end":8145.798,"text":"是 老朋友最主要是這樣我們現在要發展的現在要大大的應用的話百光百業都要用的話必須要是一個多模態的那個Foundation Model那現在我其實因為主委有指示指示副主委說要辦一個AI Team Taiwan那因為那行政程序太麻煩了所以我們現在在台德計畫下面成立一個這樣的小組"},{"start":8147.358,"end":8169.289,"text":"包括聲音在座的潮語影像視訊然後再加上原來的語言我們把這些東西結合起來這樣的話它的應用面就會非常廣因為當我在AGE端能夠處理行為的時候我就可以把它放到AGE端去處理老人家的跌倒什麼這些問題或者是居家四周圍的安全維護"},{"start":8171.05,"end":8191.874,"text":"很多東西都可以用包括醫生在病房裡面的這些手術我當然知道我們擴大運用結合團隊但是我剛剛說的宏觀的目標就往這個方向來努力吧全社會的普及這個就是要讓它普及到全社會但是我們Foundation Model是最困難的部分"},{"start":8191.994,"end":8207.905,"text":"我知道很困難但我還是要說出我們要有這個雄心壯志而右手邊我在講的是速發部我們擁有這個台灣主權AI的訓練語料庫剛剛你們已經也揭露了這個國際的大型語言的模型Google已經主動跟我們接觸了對不對"},{"start":8209.366,"end":8229.407,"text":"是那其他的呢OpenAIEntropic就Cloud的公司OpenAI我们都已经接触了好我们主动好吗既然我们就是在跟对岸是赛嘛对不对好今天至少知道Google已经接触那我们就要把我们的东西好好的深化跟推广好最后一个"},{"start":8230.588,"end":8258.673,"text":"速发部有这一个AI产品跟系统的评测中心我们依据了三个指标台湾价值观学测的社会科跟国文科来评估现在有的这些系统依它的准确性可靠性公平性资安跟隐私你们上路到现在已经检测了62个小模型58个大模型对不对好下一页这个就是要问一下Tide实在是相当具有进步的空间"},{"start":8259.833,"end":8287.654,"text":"我就看台湾价值观我们当然要赢啊可是我们还不是最好的甚至在国文科跟社会科的这个评鉴里头我们都还输给中国的系统当然也输给这些国际的大的语言资料库语言资料的模型书发部可以来说一下吧在这个评测里头Tide可以给我们一些进步面向的"},{"start":8288.942,"end":8314.46,"text":"建议吗我是不懂啦我真的不懂但是我看到我就觉得我们要赢啊我们都要赢啊我可能等一下要拜托黄汉轩老师帮忙但我猜跟那个模型的大小有关对啦当然是那另外一个是因为这个Gemma 3其实应该还没有采用我们语料库就我所知应该五月会有要赶快啊对啊已经有一个"},{"start":8314.8,"end":8336.679,"text":"有跟我们合作语料库那我相信会有很明显的希望对你们其实这个评测事务发布有一个问题你们评测的时间点跟公布有一点不公平你知道吗你们没有把评测的时间因为有的是前面评测跟后面评测都摆在一起的时候我也觉得可能对泰的会有一点不公平啊会不会改进"},{"start":8337.119,"end":8357.679,"text":"对我觉得至少在既然是一个评测它在各方面的公平跟各方面它的评测时间这些基准都要拉起否则确实会造成某些我觉得可能也对泰德系统的这些同仁可能也有一点不公平当然我们也看到了我为什么我的命题叫做台湾要以小破大"},{"start":8358.922,"end":8377.544,"text":"我们就从我们能做的强项下手也是刚刚中研院的副院长一开始所说的我们的语言资料库里头我们的内容文本里面能够多有一些台湾社会可以提供给全球的自由多元民主这些台湾价值的这些"},{"start":8379.246,"end":8394.562,"text":"这就是我们能赢的关键所以今天时间非常有限不好意思我也拖到了一些时间软体硬体都重要但最重要的是立法院的预算赶快审查赶快通过AI新十大建设311亿我们一定要朝野共同来支持谢谢"},{"start":8711.667,"end":8724.036,"text":"好 我們現在有請吳佩奕委員進行詢答謝謝主席 我請速發部國科會好 請速發部國科會到備詢台"},{"start":8734.657,"end":8737.621,"text":"首先先請教速發部次長因為這幾天高德地圖引起了很多的討論那速發部也有做了公開的回應對於工部門跟國軍禁用高德地圖我是相當支持因為我認為至少有兩點隱憂第一個"},{"start":8753.098,"end":8766.502,"text":"這高德地圖它的定位使用的是中國的北斗衛星系統第二個目前中國的法律是要求民間公司要來配合政府蒐集資料這對台灣來說是相當大的風險那剛剛前面柯志恩委員在質詢的時候他要求你們對於各國各種的軟體系統APP應該標準要一視同仁我反對"},{"start":8779.545,"end":8801.672,"text":"因為中國的這些系統軟體APP它因為中國法律的關係其實對台灣來說是有特別高的風險所以當然不能一視同仁反倒我們應該要專案的來審慎應對那我先請國科會可以來協助說明中國的北斗衛星系統這個是什麼樣的系統各位報告就我們了解這應該是比較類似於GPS的定位系統"},{"start":8808.93,"end":8825.897,"text":"GPS的定位系統那麼這個就是中國自主發展的衛星系統那麼它新一代的導航系統代表了中國他們在太空領域上面一個很戰略性的突破那麼除了民用之外很重要的是它包括了軍用"},{"start":8826.977,"end":8840.874,"text":"我們看到台灣其實我們軍方相關的研究單位做了很多的研究像國防安全研究院的資料告訴我們說北斗衛星系統從研發開始就是中共解放軍總參謀部"},{"start":8843.317,"end":8869.47,"text":"的參與跟支持中共的官媒更直接說北斗的軍事應用是最迫切的需求例如洲際飛彈無人機或智慧水雷我們台灣的國防大學黃埔學報也有一個研究裡面提到中國的北斗導航系統的建立它相當於是什麼中共在太空中建構了一套"},{"start":8870.951,"end":8886.609,"text":"偵測的平台有利於中共執行各種的作戰任務來破除戰爭的迷糊也就是戰爭當中假設GPS被破壞了大家看不到但是中國因為有北斗衛星系統他們看得到他們有眼睛"},{"start":8888.359,"end":8916.529,"text":"那麼中國為了加速北斗衛星的發展呢它不只是這一套系統而已他們甚至打造了北斗產業鏈在中國的工業和資訊化部在2022年他們發表聲明就說了依照中共的黨中央國務院的決策部署要將大眾的消費領域打造成北斗規模化應用的動力引擎並且他們要培育20家以上的企業樹立一批應用的典型樣板"},{"start":8917.529,"end":8944.959,"text":"也就是說民生消費的應用也是我們剛剛講的中國這一套北斗衛星發展它重要的引擎而我們剛剛講的高德地圖就是在北斗衛星的產業鏈中國的紅色軍事產業鏈當中剛剛講的20家以上的企業所培育的其中一家所以我要講的是這個高德地圖我們真的要謹慎來看待"},{"start":8947.369,"end":8976.678,"text":"那麼這個部分當然有國防部跟國安會有些部分是他們要處理的但今天因為是速發部的備詢所以我們還是要回到技術跟資安來請教那麼現在這個高德地圖它顯然它是要回傳它的定位資訊技術上這一些的定位資訊它如果把它整合起來比如說使用者如果夠多的話它是不是有可能可以用來分析我們台灣人的生活樣態例如說你的車流人流社會行為的分析等等的"},{"start":8977.378,"end":8990.351,"text":"她有沒有可能做這樣子的運用分析就是就她能夠取得的資料確實是有可能不僅是整體的社會的樣態甚至到個別用戶的生活型態我們認為都是會有風險的是那這個"},{"start":8994.415,"end":9012.269,"text":"他收集的資料本身有風險那剛剛我們講的又依據中國的法律嘛他們的網路安全法他們的國家情報法他任何組織公民他是依法他必須要提供這些資料給中國政府所以我們是非常的擔心因為在中國就算高德地圖他是隸屬於阿里巴巴集團但是就連馬雲就連馬雲"},{"start":9015.211,"end":9043.887,"text":"他近年在中國都遭受政府強烈的打壓所以中國的企業可以說是沒有自由可言所以當然我們要特別謹慎來去看待那所以第一步我們現在要釐清的是他到底會回傳哪些資訊那速發部資安署說我們會來進行資安的檢測我們目前會檢測的項目有哪些呢就會檢測的項目包括敏感性的資訊那這些檢測項目我是不是請資安署的副署長來做說明"},{"start":9046.656,"end":9070.16,"text":"跟委員報告這個高德地圖目前已經送資安院在檢測當中那預計五月會出來那剛才委員所追尋的檢測哪些的項目包含說他即時是讀取哪些資料或者是他越過當初使用者允許的權限他就再去翻看通話紀錄或者是其他甚至健康紀錄等等"},{"start":9070.68,"end":9086.61,"text":"那再來還有是衛金授權他會不會把這些資料就傳到了境外這是中國的伺服器剛剛委員有提到那既然是傳到中國的伺服器就歸中國的法律來管那有可能就可以取用到我們人民的生活軌跡資料"},{"start":9087.831,"end":9112.587,"text":"那除了這些之外我覺得還有一項比較重要的是這個設備的裝置每個device手機裡面可能會有一些ID那這些ID也可能會被做記號有下載過這些app的民眾他有可能就被註記了所以簡單來說就是我們會檢測有沒有偷看使用者的資料有沒有偷翻使用者的資料其他app或其他"},{"start":9113.468,"end":9129.646,"text":"儲存裝置裡面的或者是偷送資料出去最後還有被做記號這樣子的行為我們會去做檢測所以他是有可能偷看偷翻甚至註記等等有可能有這樣風險存在是那因為這個是資安的專業就要拜託速發部你們依專業來進行檢測那如同我們剛所提到的"},{"start":9134.471,"end":9155.86,"text":"因為中國跟世界上其他民主國家都不一樣它的法律規定對台灣來說有特別高的風險所以請你們一定要特別謹慎來去對待那尤其是呢這個尤其是呢近期還有一案這個目前還不到書發布現在在公平會在審就是中國的外送平台他想要透過併購的方式想要進入台灣"},{"start":9157.355,"end":9173.425,"text":"哇 這個真的是讓人相當的擔憂已經有民間團體在分析因為Grab它是外送平台嘛它未來如果是數百萬的外送員跟司機然後透過這個GPS的軌跡即時回報它就可以持續的去修正地圖那我們訂購外送都知道"},{"start":9174.285,"end":9189.631,"text":"這個事業到巷弄之間非常細的我們這些地理的資料所以呢我們是非常的擔心中國的系統如果在台灣這些資安對台灣人造成的風險那目前因為這一案是在公民會審查當中我們也會嚴格的來去監督那要拜託書發佈針對目前這個高德地圖一定要依據你們的專業來進行資安的檢測"},{"start":9198.394,"end":9223.791,"text":"好謝謝因為時間有限我接下來是這個國會會請回那我就快速的來請教速發部就是我很關心的是GPU的算力在這裡也質詢過這個去年因為我們台灣主權在訓練的語料庫12月已經上線了嘛那麼語料庫當然要持續來擴充可是我們的算力擴充也很重要本來是不是速發部有預計要買100片的GPU結果去年後來"},{"start":9225.212,"end":9253.758,"text":"是不是因為立法院預算審查的關係預算被砍了後來沒有買是 去年因為預算被刪減的關係就沒有辦法見這個算例本來我們是預計要買100片嘛因為我看了你們3月在交通委員會的質詢有國民黨的委員就在要求你們說這個GPU不是說要買嗎怎麼還沒有買應該要加速來建置然後呢他們說他們並沒有刪除預算但你們說預算有被刪除所以沒有買是因為什麼原因"},{"start":9256.317,"end":9264.788,"text":"就我所知就是預算刪除的關係是 那我看了一下就是說因為上次在審預算的時候交通委員會其實只刪了3.2億後來到政黨協商的時候對書發布用通刪的通刪了你們20億"},{"start":9270.916,"end":9299.972,"text":"那當時其實我也是一直主張說立法院當然我們是監督單位要審查預算可以刪預算可是不用通刪的方式因為你不知道你刪了什麼項目然後你通刪你沒有這個監督的理由你應該要依據你所看到的狀況我們真的認為說這個實行率不好或者是說預算其實不需要那麼高才來進行刪減但是你要通刪的結果呢變成說當時刪除這個通刪的20億這個結果刪除的委員到今天不知道說他自己刪掉了GPU這一百片的預算"},{"start":9300.752,"end":9320.542,"text":"結果去年我們堂堂我們中華民國台灣的速發布本來要買100片的GPU坦白說100片都很少了不是嗎其他國家你要建立這個AI算力中心這上萬片可能都不夠結果我們連100片都沒錢買我們國家有這麼窮嗎所以要拜託這個速發布因為馬上又要開始審查預算了我們今年是不是有續編"},{"start":9322.065,"end":9335.214,"text":"有GPU的預算 今年一樣是預計要購買100片要拜託你們來多跟我們不同黨派的委員來溝通是 我們會非常努力這個算力對台灣來講真的很重要要拜託你們加強溝通謝謝你們 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝吳佩儀委員的質詢 請官員回座"},{"start":9351.67,"end":9370.492,"text":"接下來請吳麗華召委謝謝主席有請中研院國科會抒發部三位副首長好 有請好 那個"},{"start":9372.884,"end":9395.489,"text":"我是想說今天安排這個主題那我先問幾個問題大家也可以拿出手機如果有AI軟體可以試試看那我大概先問三個問題就是難度一顆星 兩顆星 三顆星這樣可以嗎好 第一個問題我先說為什麼我要這樣問因為在28年前 1998年"},{"start":9400.35,"end":9426.416,"text":"我們有原住民主教育法的立法那麼到了2019年呢做了一次大的修法其中很重要的一個改變就是把實施的對象從過去的原住民學生把它變成全體國民就是因為我們覺得在台灣這個小小多山的國家"},{"start":9427.116,"end":9453.758,"text":"我們發現呢其實我們對身邊周遭的原住民族群不是很認識很了解那推動以來呢其實也許有一些長足的進步但是我們還是有一些問題想要就教大家首先請教一下8月1日是什麼日這難度一顆好"},{"start":9455.49,"end":9465.827,"text":"都不行原住民族日那第二题请教一下为什么会把8月1号定定为原住民族日"},{"start":9469.534,"end":9488.73,"text":"也不行因為1994年的8月1號憲法增修條文把山包證明為原住民所以把這一天定為原住民族日是作為一個紀念日那第三題可能"},{"start":9490.896,"end":9512.258,"text":"連各位的AI軟體都沒有辦法找到答案因為我試過第三個問題就是要請教日本人來台灣最後一個進入的部落是哪一個部落?有沒有民主所的?可以嗎?"},{"start":9513.564,"end":9520.85,"text":"不好意思 因為我自己不是研究原住民族的我不太清楚這個事情好 所以我們的"},{"start":9522.355,"end":9551.418,"text":"全體國民的原教還是有一大段要努力的我想這個部分是我覺得蠻悲傷的真的蠻悲傷因為我們可能知道美國怎麼樣可能知道中國怎麼樣但是我們對身邊的這些原住民族群的文化歷史語言甚至是人可能有很多的不認識那我就直接回答這一題的答案因為AI絕對找不到"},{"start":9552.179,"end":9570.884,"text":"是1933年接受招降的玉穗社玉穗社是布農族也就是說日本人最後一個收服的其實是布農族而且是接受招降因為打不下來"},{"start":9572.657,"end":9598.606,"text":"那玉穗在哪裡呢就是前幾年非常有名有一條小小的玉穗溪竟然把明霸克路橋沖斷了南橫斷也就是現在高雄桃園那個地方那這個地方其實也有一位很有名的文學作家他是誰呢"},{"start":9599.775,"end":9619.94,"text":"他叫以前我們還不能夠原住民族名登記的時候他叫王興明老師他是國小老師現在已經過世但是他恢復族名呢叫做HuslumanvavaHuslumanvava他做了有一個著作叫玉山魂"},{"start":9621.246,"end":9645.743,"text":"这本著作呢在2007年得到台湾文学奖长篇小说的经典奖里面有一段话如果你的出现是认为要帮助我教育我那么请你回去如果你将把我的经验看成是你生存的一部分那么或许我们可以一起努力"},{"start":9647.082,"end":9661.976,"text":"那為什麼我要特別的講出這段話因為在4月13日的深夜有一個台東大學布農族的教授他叫海素"},{"start":9664.605,"end":9690.057,"text":"他是台東大學的教授他忍了很久趁著一個深夜他發文而且叫做陳清文他的標題叫陳清文我們很難過的是因為他發現有一本出版的專書他標榜叫台灣原住民族知識論而且還不標叫做去殖民批判"},{"start":9691.394,"end":9697.97,"text":"但是收錄的這一篇文章在第一頁就提到有關於他"},{"start":9699.468,"end":9722.659,"text":"而且作者是筆者是這麼寫的他說他進行填調的時候進行了一次深具啟發性的訪談然後用一個當地的布農族人對另外一位這位學者教授的批判說呢他的知識都是從書上看的而且說他談的那些主居地他沒有去過"},{"start":9725.126,"end":9745.485,"text":"結果原來這個深具啟發性的訪談搞了老半天竟然是他在他布農族乾媽的庭院的晚上輕鬆聊天聽那個人講的話他就把它放在他的學術專作裡面各位都是學者"},{"start":9748.156,"end":9769.489,"text":"為什麼沒有原住民學者發聲而是這個受害人當事人他忍了很久用半夜發聲因為他們都很清楚在學術界自己面對什麼樣的困境他們也要常常接受審查所以他們不敢發聲所以我特別難過因為這個很明顯我在民國86年寫碩士論文"},{"start":9778.599,"end":9804.359,"text":"這個道理就已經很清楚了研究倫理我們要保護要去識別化 沒有也沒有做事實查證也沒有做橫評報導甚至是錯誤的詮釋我們非常的難過所以在這個部分我其實今天要特別談這些就是要談"},{"start":9806.124,"end":9815.722,"text":"我們為什麼那麼重視原住民的主權AI為什麼我們不斷的談我們原住民族也要成為一個學門"},{"start":9817.196,"end":9845.88,"text":"因為人類學家他本來是在學習在地者如何感受但是我們沒有想到把這種輕鬆聊天的八卦經常有很多學者到我們原住民部落我們也會在那邊講八卦輕鬆的聊天講笑話結果把它寫進去傷害了那位niho而且那位niho他很聰明喔niho一個部落可能有20個niho"},{"start":9848.527,"end":9866.098,"text":"但是這個受害者全名就那麼一個我們知道是誰這個是一個毀人聲譽 毀了自己的聲譽我想也毀了中研院民俗所的聲譽犯了一個非常低級的錯誤"},{"start":9867.819,"end":9883.017,"text":"所以在這個部分其實就暴露了我們長期以來我們在談的就是仲裁者的優越視野不自覺的用西方學術霸權去看待這些田野的資料把原住民視為顯微鏡下的客體"},{"start":9885.62,"end":9905.689,"text":"而且知識生產的權力不對等因為學者未有編排篩選定調田野資料甚至詮釋的生殺大權而且是一種慈善的迷思好像為族群發聲一廂情願卻忽略了可能導致汙名化的一個結果"},{"start":9907.269,"end":9935.356,"text":"所以我今天特别站在这里因为如果我不发声大家也不好意思发声所以我希望今天我们的中研院您是负责研究的伦理那我们的这个国科会是负责学门的建立那么述发部呢主导未来这个AI语料库的建制所以特别邀请三个部会来正视这个问题"},{"start":9936.696,"end":9947.537,"text":"以前的人類學是重視個人的知情同意沒有做到但是各位應該很清楚2005年的原基法出來了之後把"},{"start":9948.499,"end":9974.856,"text":"个人的同意拉到集体的同意所以原基法写得很清楚21条政府或私人如果要去做学术研究要取得原住民族或部落同意参与原住民得分享相关利益我要跟各位讲荒业法很多的法都已经在践行智商同意我们对学者学术界非常尊重"},{"start":9976.332,"end":9994.98,"text":"還沒有這樣強烈的要求但是我們也很了解歐盟他有一個所謂的taking care的計畫所以我想問一下中研院未來像民族所的博物館可以開放讓這些原住民的學者一起申請合作研究部落文物嗎"},{"start":9996.53,"end":10020.281,"text":"有了中英民族所一直有辦的工作展的展示就是過去收集那些文物然後回到部落去再重新做展示現在已經辦到第六屆了所以我們就有長期的而且我們還有原住民部落的講座一些研究講座都有還有補助研究民的那個原住民組的研究生我們都有長期的補助的計畫所以這是我們一直在執行在做的那我們也擴展需要在這方面能夠更擴大那個實作的範圍"},{"start":10022.322,"end":10048.767,"text":"您說的這些我都了解但是我覺得我舉個例子來講像我們的祖靈柱某個部落因為大家談要文物返鄉但是都做半套可能第一次的文物返鄉是來一個什麼結婚讓這個祖靈柱跟你們結婚第二次的時候是結親結伴"},{"start":10052.119,"end":10077.307,"text":"其實在原住民來看很客氣但是我們不是不知道我們也了解那個不是尊嚴平等對待的做法所以我想這個部分剛才講的我都了解但是我們是希望平等共同的一同的來分享利益然後能夠做到FPIC自由事前之前同意"},{"start":10078.047,"end":10106.927,"text":"这个已经是联合国全世界一个很普遍的标准我希望我们的学术界能够共同的来做所以我今天其实来最主要就是说为什么我们需要原住民族的研究学门因为原住民族研究不等于原住民做出来的研究大家都可以做而且原住民族研究的方法论跟研究伦理其实是没有办法在目前任何学门没有办法"},{"start":10107.888,"end":10109.944,"text":"有这样的规范去含纳"},{"start":10111.178,"end":10140.678,"text":"所以它是一个很独特的所以我们一直强调我们希望成为一个正式的学门然后国家常态性的科研分类具有正式的学术地位长期稳定的基础研究的资金投入然后透过严格的同侪审查产生客观正确可用于AI训练的系统性知识提供AI这个大水库干净的水源因为我们不希望AI复制歧视复制错误"},{"start":10141.438,"end":10160.021,"text":"这个是我们今天为什么特别要在这边来请我们的中研院请国科会请书发部我们是不是共同的来成立一个平台就我刚才所谈的学门还有关于在我们建制AI语料库的时候原住民不能被边缘化"},{"start":10161.002,"end":10174.208,"text":"我们很多的干净的资料水库正确的我希望都能够把它建制起来那不晓得这个部分有没有办法三个月内给我你们的一个平台讨论的一个成果"},{"start":10178.035,"end":10201.017,"text":"好 我們三個願意提供報告 謝謝可以喔 就是關於學門建制跟未來這個AI 主權AI的一個建制只要提供我預計要怎麼做 要怎麼投入資源經費 這樣可以嗎好 謝謝好 那謝謝主席好 謝謝吳麗華教委好 三位請回"},{"start":10209.672,"end":10226.688,"text":"接下来有请蔡春筹委员进行询答主席"},{"start":10228.7,"end":10251.998,"text":"各位同仁大家好有請三個部會的代表好 請三個部會機關代表上備訓台三位代表大家好"},{"start":10253.022,"end":10271.697,"text":"今天我要針對AI浪潮中的產業結果與人文深度失衡的一個問題提出質詢首先我們請國科會的副主委我在先前在經濟部在做質詢的時候曾經有說過那個執行過運動產業"},{"start":10276.1,"end":10299.654,"text":"那我们台湾的运动产业呢不管是球拍球写或者是说那个自行车的出口的产值都是全球那个明媚前茅的但是呢我们谈到AI跟软体应用的时候呢情况呢现在让人非常非常的失望那目前的一个情况是政府投入了"},{"start":10300.194,"end":10325.468,"text":"大量的預算來做AI的一個補助計畫但是呢結案之後呢我們只有看到一堆的一個研究報告成果那卻沒有看到具體的出口產值那反觀呢來自中國大陸的一個高的地圖的APP近期呢在台灣的市場呢引起了先然大波他們呢憑藉著紅綠燈"},{"start":10327.449,"end":10339.198,"text":"倒數還有車道的一個導航就已經有非常強大的一個AI的演算法直接衝擊了我們對岸的一個軟體的一個發展跟導航的一個軟體智慧這樣的一個思維"},{"start":10345.123,"end":10357.777,"text":"那我要請教副主委的看法上週總執行的時候國科會他們說他們有信心做得比高德還要好那國科會你的看法呢"},{"start":10362.935,"end":10382.561,"text":"其實我們除了學術界在推動AI的研發之外我們也很積極的推動學術界跟產業的合作希望能夠推動AI到百工百業去所以這個地方其實我們是真的很努力在積極在推動當中我也很有信心以台灣目前的人才跟產業的狀況應該是有機會可以做得到 謝謝"},{"start":10386.623,"end":10403.992,"text":"我們期待我們可以看到我們軟體的一個產值最主要是說我們國家已經投入這樣的一個經費不少但是我們希望能夠看到跟硬體一樣的那些量力的一個產值所以這個是我很擔心的就是說"},{"start":10407.094,"end":10434.669,"text":"為什麼別人能夠把AI做成全世界有感的APP跟軟體服務剩下我們都是在寫一些程式看到一些結果報告所以我們台灣不要一直停留在製造業的思維只會做AI精配的一個伺服器而且沒有辦法自己做一個軟體的靈魂我們永遠就是只做別人的一個代工廠"},{"start":10436.05,"end":10451.595,"text":"副主委你的看法呢各位報告的確是這樣所以我們也是很積極在推動培育系統人才培育更高端的應用人才希望能夠協助推動這個人體的部分謝謝請我們國科位加油我們來邀請眾人院我想"},{"start":10465.728,"end":10469.893,"text":"有幾個觀點我們提到台灣社會長期這個是在中研院的院長做專訪的時候有提到台灣社會長期是重工商然後輕文理在人文學科的一個核心價值在於是在培養"},{"start":10485.37,"end":10503.192,"text":"具體的一個格局跟視野的一個領導者那這與我們之前觀察不謀而合那AI的發展不能排斥人文那最近兩岸的一個文化對談也有提到人類的審美是最後的一個防線AI可以生成"},{"start":10504.834,"end":10527.303,"text":"大量的知識但是無法注入人生的經驗還有中研院目前也編列了1.2億的預算要補助AI在人文跟科學的創新應用例如用AI來解鎖歷史的文本或者是發展多模態的基礎跟模型"},{"start":10529.284,"end":10554.602,"text":"那請問副院長除了對目前的一個計畫我們有沒有更具體的做法讓這一批1.2億的監會預算下能夠產出協助論文如何讓主權AI真正的以台灣的自由民主一個創意結合創造出具備台灣價值能產出商業產值的人文AI的典範"},{"start":10556.561,"end":10584.683,"text":"謝謝蔡委員的關心我想我們廖院長是特別關心所以過去兩年來我們特別有撥一筆預算在人文這一塊我們原來中院就已經有數位資料資料中心那他已經有資料但是就是說我過去的瞭解是人文的部分發展不可能那麼快的原因是比如說剛才說解鎖這個日治時代的一個文本"},{"start":10585.163,"end":10604.507,"text":"我終於我下去了解原因是在比如說像民主所做這個戶籍成本他們是用手寫的不像我們這個用Word用PDF馬上可以唸他用手寫的不同的戶政人員的筆記不一樣所以他必須要有一些時間去判讀那這一部分我們在持續的在努力應該是會這個學習會越來越快"},{"start":10607.768,"end":10611.289,"text":"這個也是我院長承諾的就是要把它用AI的來詮釋最後我請肅發部今天請問一下次長我要引用金融時報的一個最新數據在亞太地區有500大高成長新創的公司當中新加坡跟印度各有101家"},{"start":10635.978,"end":10652.691,"text":"南韓有79家那次長你要不要猜猜看我們台灣有幾家入榜就是這個圖上是顯示16家16家好是16家那次長你要不要再猜猜看我們台灣進入100名的有幾家"},{"start":10659.619,"end":10679.352,"text":"不太清楚我們台灣前100名當中台灣竟然只有一家而且排名在97名那這說明了什麼在AI快速融入商業改變經營模式的一個當下那台灣的腳步遠疏於日韓還有"},{"start":10680.273,"end":10696.018,"text":"印度 新加坡我想要問市長我們在發展AI這個產業到底是在幫助中小企業來降低成本還是要發揮創意或者是淪為大者恆大的一個幫兇"},{"start":10697.678,"end":10714.25,"text":"我們請副主委跟委員報告我們速發部在採用五大政策工具不論是人才資料算力行銷或者是資金這五個政策工具面向上都非常對準中小企業"},{"start":10715.031,"end":10736.433,"text":"因為我們是在協助從算力上降低中小企業投入研發AI研發的成本我們提供免費的算力讓中小企業可以進入這一個研發的環境那人才上面我們也特別針對中小企業能夠去提供他們需要的人才的培訓包括獎勵然後補助"},{"start":10738.735,"end":10763.185,"text":"这些机制那在新创上面的这个资金百亿资金的这个投入也是针对新创的这个公司呢去做投入毕竟呢大公司跟小公司还是有差别那小公司他的一个资源也比较少我们也希望说真的能够协助我们中小企业那最后呢"},{"start":10765.246,"end":10769.709,"text":"我希望第一能夠落實軟體的產值考核我們行政部門應該要重新檢討AI補助的標準不能只看研發最後就是軟體的出口"},{"start":10785.399,"end":10802.008,"text":"出口還有商用化的產值我們還是要強調第二要強化人文AI的一個轉化機制請中研院思考一下如何讓研究跟技術能夠落實到生活文化還有運動產業的一些"},{"start":10807.348,"end":10810.311,"text":"一個記憶體的藍圖第三我們要縮短AI造成的一個數位的紅鍋那政府應該針對那九成五感的非科技業的勞工利用AI的工資來提升他們一個產值跟薪資而會讓AI是把那個貧窮差距拉的更大"},{"start":10833.811,"end":10860.118,"text":"這是我們期待的台灣不能只有台積電這樣一座孤山我們需要整片充滿創意以人文抵應的一個綠洲我們大家一起努力謝謝謝謝蔡春籌委員的質詢請官員回座下一位有請羅志強委員進行詢答"},{"start":10865.723,"end":10880.226,"text":"主席有請國科會陳秉宇副主委 速發部侯怡秀次長 中研院彭信坤副院長好 請三個機關代表上備群臺各位好"},{"start":10881.96,"end":10902.599,"text":"回答執行長黃仁勛表示各國必須擁有獨立的AI基礎建設重要性已經超越發展原子彈他認為建立AI基礎建設對國家而言是絕對必要是贏得全球競賽的關鍵全球至少已經有20個國家著手推動"},{"start":10903.36,"end":10925.952,"text":"主權AI那台灣當然不能缺席所以本席先肯定兩件事情第一國科會的國網雲端算力中心要打造主權AI的算力基礎這一步本來就應該要做也算是走在前面這是第一個要肯定那第二個中研院跟速發部合作要釋出超過"},{"start":10928.413,"end":10941.241,"text":"620萬磁源的研究與科普文本來上架台灣主權AI訓練語料庫也願意把多年累積的學術成果拿出來支援本土訓練模型這一點我也覺得肯定"},{"start":10942.202,"end":10971.214,"text":"但我們也看到黃仁勳執行長他提出的五層蛋糕理論最底層就是電力那AI運作都要電力那能源是萬物之機所以決定AI系統產出多少智慧的根本就是電力那AI時代算力就是國力那我想要請教一下以台灣現在能源結構足以支應AI發展所需要的龐大電力嗎"},{"start":10973.368,"end":10991.495,"text":"評估過嗎?各位報告在我們國網中心所建置的算力中心當中我們其實都有做電力的評估那基本上是OK的是OK我看到你們等於是短短三年間AI算力台中院的報告"},{"start":10992.595,"end":11017.947,"text":"台灣目前有36座資料中心那三年內AI的算力中心的電力負載規模將是目前的7.5倍所以把這些都算進去你仍然覺得電力是夠的各位報告在國科會掌握的部分當中我們是都有做盤點那如果核電沒有重啟夠嗎也有評估嗎"},{"start":11023.148,"end":11049.549,"text":"這個評估是把核電重啟算進去還是沒算進去根本因為我們的算力中心之前在建置的時候應該是在之前沙倫的應該是還沒有把核電重啟這件事情考慮進去其實就已經是夠的就夠的所以我們現在政府在計算電力的過程當中想要重啟核三核電因為缺電不包括我們AI算力的部分"},{"start":11051.707,"end":11073.778,"text":"電當然是大水庫啦,也沒有說什麼,你的所謂電夠不夠也不是說我們的電力夠,AI算力就夠了AI算力是佔掉電力的一個大餅的一部分嘛,對不對所以我覺得國科會還是要整個去評估,不是說你現在去看電力規模而是去評估整體電力成長,包括AI電力成長加進來的狀況"},{"start":11075.782,"end":11102.488,"text":"要根據實際的狀況來去評估好 那麼接下來我想請教一下去年底在YouTube的影片當中有一個有萬人訂閱的陳志明醫師他宣稱北龍跟台大醫院發現糖尿病的致病元凶而且要用革命性的細菌療法就可以治癒另外也有影片在網路流傳台大醫院"},{"start":11103.368,"end":11128.473,"text":"肺癌的权威医师推荐一款可逆转肺功能的药物以及社群平台上出现长根知名中医推荐宣称可以改善糖尿病及四肢水肿药物的广告三种眼科名医推荐眼药水我想请教我们抒发部的侯次长我刚讲这些影片你知道有什么跟广告什么共通之处吗"},{"start":11130.821,"end":11152.64,"text":"就是以专门职业去进行广告吗这些都算闹得还算大家都沸沸扬扬就书发部也要稍微了解一下实际现在的状况都是AI生成的我刚刚讲都是AI生成的以身为的假人或假冒的名人传播不实讯息甚至卖假要诈骗"},{"start":11153.462,"end":11180.322,"text":"那事實上隨著人工智慧的日益發展那AI生成內容已經真的已經快越來越真偽難辨了啦那很容易讓人誤信為真我看到就是對岸在去年9月有強制規定所有AI生成的文字圖片影音的內容都必須包括顯示標示以及影視標示那平台在服務提供者的內容上架或上線時要進行審核"},{"start":11182.864,"end":11207.12,"text":"檢驗生成合成內容的標示否則就要加風險提示我想請教次長針對這種AI生成內容的身為影像書發部能不能訂出所謂的標示指引那具體要怎麼做怎麼樣提高內容來源的透明跟可辨識性來降低這些身為影片AI影片對於公共跟社會安全的危害"},{"start":11208.476,"end":11226.424,"text":"謝謝委員就是身為影片或說生成式的影片的標注或生成式內容的標注我們現在已經在研議指引也同時在跟各個平台來做討論"},{"start":11228.425,"end":11257.597,"text":"就是在技術方面能夠做到什麼樣的程度就現在這個狀況現在的技術水準可以做到什麼程度然後包括了剛剛您提到的這個顯性的標示還有隱性的標示那也包括後面跟平台如果有發現是有偽造而且造成損害的狀況的話需要什麼樣子的處理機制這個我們都在這個已經在進行當中"},{"start":11258.837,"end":11285.671,"text":"我是希望我們抒發部還有相關單位腳步要加快因為AI深層的身為技術已經被廣泛運用在一些造假詐欺濫用行為當中那你可以看到過去沒有AI技術詐騙已經猖獗到這種程度越來越棘手但現在有AI助力更是如虎添翼所以要拜託抒發部跟相關機關心力除弊的措施腳步請加快是好好 謝謝大家"},{"start":11289.034,"end":11316.22,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的質詢請官員回座接下來有請羅廷偉趙偉進行詢答好謝謝主席有請國科會陳秉宇副主委中研院彭副院長速發部侯怡秀次長謝謝請三個警官代表"},{"start":11319.449,"end":11340.158,"text":"好早安首先先請教副主委用AI生成的文字國際期刊目前是否接受投稿跟委員回報應該是不接受此外國際間針對AI生成的內容用於學術研究論文發表是否已經有相關的規範或通行的標準"},{"start":11343.258,"end":11358.909,"text":"目前應該是沒有相關標準好 國科會今天的書面報告的內容著重於說明推動AI的研發還有這個科研上的應用效益然而就本次專案報告所聚焦的AI研究應用的一個倫理"},{"start":11359.85,"end":11383.845,"text":"我们这个议题啊中文院今日的书面报告第六页其实也有相当明确的说明报告写呢针对运用AI从事学术研究以及发表所生的研究伦理以及学术伦理的一个问题啊目前面临的主要课题就是除了定定参考指引等建议性的规范外如何研究适用"},{"start":11384.565,"end":11408.8,"text":"以及既有相关伦理的规范例如在指引以要求落实揭露的基础上使用AI生成的文章是否应该揭露内容大量使用AI生成的研究成果是否构成抄袭造假相关机关是否要针对AI定定新的行为规范以供遵循"},{"start":11410.049,"end":11415.786,"text":"我想這個部分副院長請問您這裡啊相關的機關指的是有誰"},{"start":11417.011,"end":11439.924,"text":"我想跟羅恩報告我們中研院已經在開始落實任何一個研究計畫送上來我們都有辦法用AI目前的軟體去偵測到底是有多少部分是AI生成多少部分是AI改寫的那我們都會進一步去對嘛 有這樣的技術嘛沒有問題對嘛 但是相關機關要針對AI制定新的規範你認為是哪個相關機關嘛"},{"start":11446.603,"end":11456.868,"text":"對 規範的話目前我們眾院自己要求自己那其他學界的部分我想應該要科技部跟教育部也來共同應該有國科會吧對"},{"start":11460.671,"end":11482,"text":"羅遠我們現在面對的一個很多的問題就要各個學門來形成共識比如說過去翻譯的文章算是一個研究成果那他只寫說易柱那現在用AI翻譯的到底他的他的那個author shape怎麼去算他的quity怎麼去算我想這個標準在哪裡我覺得這個部分上"},{"start":11482.58,"end":11506.75,"text":"要大量的討論嘛大家來研究嘛我們沒有說一刀切一定可以一定不行嘛但是透過討論我們來訂定一個標準有機可循嘛所以副主委針對中央醫院的建議請問是否需要將AI訂定新的行為規範跟委員回報其實國會我們一直都有在針對AI制定一些指引的規定的部分"},{"start":11508.537,"end":11525.249,"text":"我認同中研院報告所指出AI確實有助學術發展提升整個研究的效率品質這件事情我們正面看待但是也肯定國科會長期推動AI的研發以及科研所應用的一個努力"},{"start":11525.549,"end":11546.58,"text":"但是現在AI在學術上的應用我認為有許多混沌曖昧的一個地方我們也要把它拿出來好好的去做一個探討所以我們慢慢來討論無論如何將AI界定清楚不論對學者個人而言甚至整個學術端都是有幫助的我想這應該大家都認同吧是的"},{"start":11547.18,"end":11573.149,"text":"所以也因為現在大家都使用AI怎麼樣使用AI是合情合理合法什麼樣的情形可能涉及學術倫理的一個風險我覺得有必要跟大家說清楚講明白因為如果不講清楚萬一誤觸了整個學者的研究是不是也會付之流水所以請問國科會AI生成的內容怎麼界定"},{"start":11574.588,"end":11597.946,"text":"有使用到AI就算嗎?應該不是吧?各位朋友其實還是回到研究的本質啦那AI其實還是一個工具它是輔助的工具它不應該成為一個研究的就是說它不能讓研究人員拿來偷懶或者卸責啦這一些的不當使用我知道我知道"},{"start":11598.246,"end":11622.992,"text":"所以這個我們還是會回到研究的本質那希望我們的PI就是可以對他所提出的研究的東西負責任他就算使用了AI工具生了圖片也好生了文字也好他最後還是要做確認還是要做負責所以AI生成生成到什麼階段是不行我們基本上還是希望能夠界定清楚"},{"start":11624.526,"end":11642.367,"text":"跟委員報告應該是說不能是說AI生成到什麼程度不行應該是說就算整篇都是AI生成的但是核心的價值核心的內容是它所提出來的原創性然後以及它整篇文章它還是有負責任就算它的文字是經過AI論稿認識"},{"start":11644.949,"end":11672.983,"text":"這應該都是還是屬於合理使用範圍合情合理對我就想問你嘛就是說他的AI請他論事啊文章啊罪誌啊拿掉但基本的核心是他的這有沒有學理問題如果今天我們把它定清楚沒有學理問題那基本上大家就比較放心嘛就是怕會有誤觸或者是有這樣相關的疑慮嘛其實我今天我今天也遇到一個蠻尷尬的我今天大概就是自拍"},{"start":11674.158,"end":11678.512,"text":"然後我請AI說把我那個有一個頭髮翹起來幫我修掉"},{"start":11679.724,"end":11708.261,"text":"然後我就貼上去臉書結果他就直接給我上一個AI標籤好像說我沒有到那個地方然後沒有在那個那個地點時間出現就造成一些誤會啦啊實際上我就趕快拿CHAP GPT生成的過程跟大家報告我在那個時間點我人在那邊只是我的頭髮就翹起來我請他說修掉以後就直接貼了這一個圖片啊那就是有所謂的"},{"start":11709.624,"end":11709.907,"text":"誤解嘛"},{"start":11710.509,"end":11738.808,"text":"那我们这个都还好这只是一个脸书的贴文我们不希望是学术研究的时候会不会有误解误触的一个问题所以在学术伦理的一个定定我们希望能够更加的严谨不是说严苛是说它有一定的步骤有机可循所以接下来如果研究成果大量使用AI生成内容国科会如何认定是否抄袭跟造假的时候这是我今天很关心的"},{"start":11739.688,"end":11765.941,"text":"所以关于揭露的义务是否有一致的标准是否全面揭露要采用还是重大影响的才揭露这个有没有具体的指引跟我有报告其实我们都是要求要全面揭露那没关系啊你定定清楚嘛是好不好我们要的是有机可循而不是现在我来指导你什么样是对什么样是错因为实务上你们更清楚嘛"},{"start":11767.094,"end":11795.449,"text":"是的好那我想是否有需要將這個AI定定性的行為規範跟我們報告其實這個所謂的AI的行為規範跟我們一般的學術倫理的規範其實是一致的所以我們那還是回到這個所研究人員他還是要需要有這個學術的原創性等等之類的那就算使用AI工具這跟我們以前這個我們使用其他的工具其實是一樣的規範"},{"start":11797.263,"end":11823.886,"text":"跟副主委討論一個我認為非常重要但目前相對被忽略的一個問題AI在學術圈的使用已經相當普遍政府也除了鼓勵使用之外有沒有清楚的告訴研究人員應該如何使用AI使用AI的時候應該搭配哪些保護措施以及哪些情況是高風險有沒有去告誡有沒有去做一個相對應的教育"},{"start":11824.637,"end":11845.68,"text":"各位回報我們應該是有提供AI的指引而且一直在隨時在修正當中因為我想說舉例來說AI是自己去學習你可能跟AI不斷的對話在這個過程中不斷的訓練讓AI從不懂到懂也把自己尚未發表的創建研究設計實驗數據跟AI說這些想法是你獨創的"},{"start":11846.761,"end":11870.337,"text":"你可能在AI跟他討論的過程中被AI學走獨創的內容一旦系統留存再利用甚至成為後續模型訓練或者是服務優化的一個素材的時候就有可能產生研究構想外洩機密流失智慧成果被擴散的一個風險所以我們在學術單位的時候他們也說他們不喜歡雲端"},{"start":11871.943,"end":11896.943,"text":"他們喜歡地端耶是的是的對吧對所以這個部分上我也希望說不是不可能發生是AI進步太快一不小心洩漏這部分的一個教育跟如何使用我覺得我們也要超前部署是的我們會做提醒所以請教副主委將未發表的實驗數據出稿輸入AI進行校對分析的時候這些敏感的資訊他的隱私歸屬為何"},{"start":11902.57,"end":11913.605,"text":"這些應該都是我們研究人員自己要這個小心一點的自己要小心對對對所以作為主管機關相關機關我們也無法說幫他"},{"start":11915.811,"end":11935.149,"text":"對 因為這個我們很難去做所謂的實質上的限制就像說我們也會要求在沒有AI的年代我們會要求說你要把你的實驗的數據等等的那在實驗室當中做好一些控管等等這個我們其實之前都有做提醒做要求其實AI時代也是一樣的我想"},{"start":11935.569,"end":11950.604,"text":"今天現在有AI的時代啦大家也要有新的適應啦新的自我的一個審視的觀念但是我們希望說在這個品質建立的過程中有建立監督的機制也好啊可以有相關的輔助的一個功能也好"},{"start":11951.184,"end":11975.527,"text":"這個部分上不是AI輔助它是我們要輔助使用者或者是學術研究的一個過程有這樣子的相關指引當然你說有一部分的一些一般性應用跟學術倫理的一個歸納基本上大家都會有一個初步的共識但是我們還是希望後續能夠更加明確因為我們還不知道AI未來變化還能夠有多少大家一起加油好嗎"},{"start":11976.588,"end":11996.014,"text":"謝謝委員另外簡單就問一個問題訓練AI算力先要有高效能的設備就是GPUGPU的成本高達上千萬學者如果要做這項技術首先要有上千萬的資本額這是入門的一個關鍵那政府可以具體的來協助業者什麼樣的一個項目我想問一下蘇發布"},{"start":12002.218,"end":12018.288,"text":"蘇發部在算力上面從去年開始就有建立這個算力讓業者能夠去運用那現在已經有180多家的廠商來利用那去年比較可惜的狀況是因為預算刪減的關係所以我們本來要增購的100片的GPU沒有辦法購買"},{"start":12019.349,"end":12020.049,"text":"只有購買GPU這一項方法嗎?"},{"start":12036.277,"end":12056.266,"text":"基本上不管是借算力嘛或者是其他的業者在研究地端在研究所謂的大型語言模組的時候其實他不一定都是靠GPU啦因為我們也有接觸到一些業者他們所提供的信用方法我希望提出這個問題就是說購買GPU當然固然重要但是只有GPU不斷的購買"},{"start":12057.686,"end":12081.637,"text":"這唯一的走向嗎我覺得這個部分速發部是不是也要應該多請你我了解這個委員所提到的這一種各種目前不同的新的這個降低算力需求的做法那我知道也有硬體廠商他們有新的架構來提供比如說用其他的這個硬體設備來取代GPU那這個都是我們可以討論合作"},{"start":12082.577,"end":12097.211,"text":"那另外一個部分是在初餐的這個通過以後我們也希望結合民間的力量來提供這個部分他們所興建的預算能夠提供部分給公共使用那我會這樣子"},{"start":12097.952,"end":12124.559,"text":"最後再提這個問題就是說希望速發部能夠廣大意見多了解一下廠商所提供的新型計畫技術因為我們也有看到我覺得不錯啊GPU不再是購買的唯一選項因為畢竟耗費是大量的人民的預算納稅錢我們也希望說有更切實際或者是花在刀口的一個部分我們能夠來參考有需要我介紹我們也都願意只要能夠讓我們這個環境產業更好我們大家一起努力好嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":12126.909,"end":12134.375,"text":"好谢谢罗廷伟赵伟的咨询请官员回座接下来有请钟嘉斌委员进行询答"},{"start":12148.642,"end":12163.967,"text":"主席 在場委員監禁 列席政務機關事長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國科會的陳副主委還有速發部的侯次長以及中研院的彭副院長"},{"start":12165.144,"end":12182.255,"text":"好 請三位機關副所長相配訊臺 謝謝好 莊委員好副院長 副主委跟次長今天我們談的就是數位透明度的分級兼顧資安與取用科專企劃能否來支援能源設施科研研究我們看一下"},{"start":12183.7,"end":12195.091,"text":"原生數據到底我們是要限制取用還是放寬使用這在我們的AI基本法當中討論很多像歐盟GPAR它是為了保護隱私限制取用但是相對的就是影響到AI的發展速度現在"},{"start":12196.414,"end":12219.329,"text":"歐盟大概是主要先進國家AI的應用程度發展最慢的但是相對我們看這個吉普利的畫風這是在日本他們政府的法令規定放寬取用可以惡創但是這樣就造成了原來的創作者他說影響到創作權益先請問國科會副主委你認為我國的AI基本法之後的取向會偏向哪一邊"},{"start":12221.224,"end":12236.684,"text":"只能選一邊 不能兩邊都選其實AMI基本法的設定的過程當中真的是兩邊橫頻的橫頻的 副院長你也是認為嗎就是說沒有絕對二選一我想要學界來形成一個共識好 那麼侯次長呢"},{"start":12239.98,"end":12260.166,"text":"我认为我们目标是希望放宽取用但是采用技术的方式来保障个人的隐私那么侯市长说明了因为部会的权责不同因为速发部要发展它当然要降低取用的限制但是我们看到资料的被取用有基本上两个对价关系如果你AI的数据库要取用"},{"start":12260.706,"end":12277.817,"text":"那對方商業機制他允許你取用但是你要不要有回饋機制這是我們討論的但是如果是民眾他有涉及到隱私你要取用但要去識別化這就是對價關係的設計但是對於AI取用的對價關係國科會在未來AI基本法之後的各項的行政規定有沒有一個思考"},{"start":12279.113,"end":12290.275,"text":"各位您知道這個我們跟速發部應該會共同一起來努力好 跟速發部啦好 那我舉個例子我猜猜看你們知道這有什麼原因這叫做地籍資料啊你知道什麼叫做地籍登記簿騰本嗎"},{"start":12291.598,"end":12312.436,"text":"沒有人 有印象沒有 譬如說我要是去銀行貸款 我要去申請我本人的名下的土地他會出現我的名字 出生年月日 我的身份證之後我的住址 因為銀行要對保嘛 然後呢 我有沒有設定抵押但是如果今天我是狗仔隊 我去看陳主委 欸 長出入某棟房子我根據門牌要查到那個地級 我又查出來說 欸 那個地級登錄成本 土地是誰的"},{"start":12313.7,"end":12321.849,"text":"如果說全揭露啊我就可以說這個陳主委跟某某地主有一些不尋常的曖昧關係是不是所以要限制嘛"},{"start":12322.935,"end":12344.48,"text":"但是如果說我是一個房客我是陳租人我要去租你的土地我是要好歹知道你的土地的地主吧所以政府提供的資訊因著他的用途的不同身份的不同他有些取用的不同所以是登記人任何人還是關系人取用的不同好但是有一種情況我舉個例你們聽聽看最近我在跟"},{"start":12345.28,"end":12373.73,"text":"能源署討論台灣未來的電力配置他說未來能源署會根據因為用電的需要知道目前每個地區的用電需求量所以他會把每個電表的大數據下放到地方政府讓民眾用電人可以知道該地區的用電狀況這個很可怕啦我先問一下副院長如果說你住在某個區公所那個區公所你上網可以看到所有家的電表我可不可以找那個不在家的人去偷東西啊"},{"start":12374.998,"end":12399.854,"text":"對,所以這一部分應該是個人資料保護法要檢討的問題是的,所以當我們形成大數據政府要供人民使用的時候一定要有一些考量,我們看一下但是這些還有一些不平等,不只是身份不同用途不同,還有算力的不平等同樣的算力強的人,他可以掌握比較多的資訊相對弱的人就沒辦法取用我舉個例子,上個月有一個新聞"},{"start":12401.195,"end":12419.354,"text":"法國航空母艦戴高樂他撥彎戰雲吃井他要去馳援結果因為有個軍官在航空母艦上跑步他用一個慢跑的APP結果有人去查這個APP這個資料是公開的他在印度洋上跑步所以馬上人家查出航空母艦的軌跡了"},{"start":12420.956,"end":12443.213,"text":"好 陳文辰主委那麼這個就是數位平等的數據禁用權還有數位隱蔽要確保治安國安這兩個部分還要獲取到你的算力未來會不會在立法的時候考慮到這個例如點的不同請往下看來 就是這樣你們會不會有一個分級數位透明 數位隱蔽的相關執法這個可能要問蘇發富 來"},{"start":12450.114,"end":12469.879,"text":"是跟委員報告這個部分確實在我們現在整個推動法律修正的這個過程會有風險分歧的方式來不是風險分歧不好意思風險分類那您剛剛講到這個部分其實風險分類中非常重要的一個部分就是隱私這個部分還有會在"},{"start":12471.239,"end":12499.097,"text":"不好意思會在不同的應用場景底下我們會去跟各部會對接希望他們可以考慮到這件事情好要注意到其實媒體的數據禁用權因著你的算力多寡不同其實對有人來講是隱蔽的對他來講是透明的那如果你的算力不夠雖然是透明公開的資料但是你都沒辦法使用就像我說的地級登記簿藤本我想在座的人有多少人用過可能不曉得我可以申請第二類第三類可以往下看"},{"start":12499.617,"end":12528.659,"text":"好現在工商時報前天的新聞台電董事長說AI資料中心的用電規模堪比半寶體產業但是廠房面積比較小可以建在都會地區會對電網形成挑戰什麼意思我們往下看所謂的算力靠電力電網要韌性但是電網裡面的變電所除能設施燃料電池0B效應怎麼去處理有沒有講過這個問題陳主委你們在設這些算力分布的時候"},{"start":12529.54,"end":12554.072,"text":"還是哪一個要回答?這個你們在強調算力的同時,有沒有考慮到power couple?好,跟委員回報,我們在建置算力中心的時候,是都有跟台電保持聯繫,有確保供電的來源但是台電很困擾,你們只是需求者,困難誰去排除?"},{"start":12554.972,"end":12583.071,"text":"台電要去排除那台電怎麼排除我舉個例子往下看過去我們在教育委員會我們常常有文資保存文資保存常常發現被認定古蹟後就被一把火放火燒掉為什麼因為怕地主怕被限制因此後來呢有人從都市計畫下手想說一個叫做什麼隆基率移轉我給你隆基率獎勵但是你這個台灣銀行你這個古蹟你不能拆你不能改建但是你的發展權我換算成隆基率移轉到你台銀的其他地方大樓有沒有聽過"},{"start":12584.315,"end":12608.321,"text":"有聽過融進與移轉的這個獎勵吧好 這個是誰想出來的這個就是需要社科的研究才有辦法去解決單單是台電它有能力去創設一個融進與移轉的獎勵嗎很難但是你們要算力你們要電力問題都要去解決林碧設施 變電所台北市 不容新建那請問你在台北市你NVIDIA你要落腳這裡你怎麼辦陳主委你認為呢"},{"start":12614.568,"end":12643.167,"text":"這個我們可以鼓勵學者做這方式不是鼓勵你們有科專計畫所以我是覺得你們要鎖定不是只看算力而已你們要思考到整個我們的科研在我們的國家社會不是超然於社會而外的所以我們的科研計畫要支援的不是只是一些科學應用還要在應用過程中有些社科的調查才能協助政府機關不只統合這些科研資源還能夠發展出應對的有效政策同不同意"},{"start":12644.968,"end":12668.922,"text":"同意好那最後呢我們就往下看就是最後的結論了所以呢希望在AI基本的框架下請速發部可以針對不同的算力國科會去評估這個數位分級透明數位隱蔽的相關之法兩個部位共同合作可以嗎兩位陳副主委跟侯市長請對著麥克風答覆是會這麼做那我知道呢今天那個國科會啊好像"},{"start":12670.397,"end":12698.867,"text":"沒有這些社會人文科學好像有吧好像是你們有一個人文及社會科學研究發展處是不是是未來的科專計畫是不是能夠專門針對能源設施如果克服0b效應去做一些這個社科方面的研究調查這是中研院還是國科會的我看你們這邊有一個人文及社會科學研究發展處對我們有支援支持人設的研究是那你們有沒有那個叫做科專計畫"},{"start":12701.014,"end":12729.189,"text":"國科會的不是叫科專計畫我們就是研究計畫那科專計畫是由誰來分配由國發會來分配經濟部有經濟部來分配經濟部他說是用國科會分配完的時候他用他們分配給他的部分來你們問問看後面有人要回答了那應該是指科技計畫科技計畫好那麼未來的科技計畫可不可以在對其他部會框定的額度內或者說你們優先來支援這樣社科的調查跟研究"},{"start":12730.206,"end":12748.76,"text":"還是眾議院想自告奮勇眾議院你們也有法律研究所科技計畫是這樣就是各部會他會提出一個申請由我們這邊來做一個希望你們未來審核的時候要多多支持這樣的社科研究好嗎好謝謝謝謝莊嘉斌委員的質詢請官員回座接下來有請楊瓊英委員進行詢問"},{"start":12761.653,"end":12775.13,"text":"好 謝謝主席 楊瓊發言首先來邀請這個中聯院跟國科會好 楊委員早好"},{"start":12776.964,"end":12805.022,"text":"賴總統上任之後宣誓我們每年要編列300億元大概就是每季10億元來推動人工智慧AI的資料中心跟相關的發展我們也大家就全球性AI它不是這個科技的議題它更是國安更是產業與民主治理的一個核心競爭力所以現在全球都在談的是AI的這個主權"},{"start":12806.403,"end":12832.989,"text":"那誰能夠掌控這個模型資料還有算力呢誰能夠就能夠決定這個規則所以我們今天來討論AI的學門建構應用以及它的研究應用倫理還有它的數位透明化的一個配套措施在整個學門的建構的方式方面AI的核心學門應該包括了"},{"start":12833.709,"end":12859.51,"text":"基礎的一個模型語言的模型還有AI的安全計算這個社會科學所以本期要請教中研院跟博客會目前我們的AI研究是不是有透過進行跨領域的一個整合有沒有完整的AI的基礎學滿的地圖"},{"start":12860.911,"end":12879.5,"text":"那因為外界都會有一個想法跟研究就是說是不是會偏重在晶片跟製造的這個方面而忽略了整個模型的研究或者是AI的一個倫理跟社會影響的一個研究方面來請回答"},{"start":12880.04,"end":12905.456,"text":"好謝謝楊委員你的問題很好那我們眾議院在做就是剛才我報告章提到我們非常強調人文跟科學的創新研究那人文方面因為他本身過去資訊的背景不是那麼強所以我們就鼓勵了我們成立一個AI辦公室鼓勵這個跨領域的研究所以很多資訊的方面的人才會來協助我們那另外"},{"start":12905.976,"end":12922.95,"text":"比如說我們的廖所長他做的模型他原來是資訊的非常強的背景那最近也跟生命科學人合作去做像愛滋海默症的相關的行為研究我想我們中研院有這個條件"},{"start":12924.031,"end":12953.194,"text":"也有這一方面的人才做這個跨領域的研究但是我們不可能就是包三包也都做那就看我們的人力的相對強項在哪裡那我過去我的了解是雖然感覺上說我們投資AI很多但是相比起來還算少一個是人的問題一個是錢的問題我們要全面發展還是有我們本身的限制還是會面臨很大的挑戰我們有這個信心有這個軌道但是你還是認為有所不足的地方"},{"start":12956.434,"end":12982.528,"text":"國賀這邊跟委員回報其實AI說實在應該是每個學門我們其實是每個學門都有所以這個跨領域整合其實我們早就已經在做進行我們在不管在生科領域也好人設領域也好自然領域也好防災領域也好我們都有AI的導入所以這個跨領域整合是本來就在做的那國賀我們也有在做這個AI的盤點"},{"start":12984.069,"end":12990.492,"text":"這個非常重要尤其這個盤點因為現在全球性每一個領域都是必要的好 我們也請數位來"},{"start":12996.931,"end":13023.14,"text":"2025年12月23號我們立法院通過了這個人工智慧基本法它等於是我國第一部法律未接的人工智慧的一個相關規範同時我們也預估在兩年內要去完成這個相關的法治領域可以說是非常細部的部分完善的相關法治以及制定"},{"start":13023.72,"end":13047.813,"text":"相關的執法跟配套措施這是我們要一直努力要去完成的那財訊方面他提出了上市櫃企業副總級以上的高階主管他也提出了就是AI的一個時代大調查顯示有六成的企業知道政府正在推動AI的政策"},{"start":13048.593,"end":13077.822,"text":"但是多數對於立法整個的過程他並不是很懸殊所以也有三成認為這個政策到目前為止他沒什麼感受所以在國科會方面我們相關雖然有定到這樣的一個執法時間所以我個人要請問基本法通過之後那你的這個國科會你的配套以及執法的修訂你們現在的進度呢"},{"start":13078.912,"end":13102.123,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們透過行政院的三政委平台正在做執法的盤點跟修正執法的盤點跟修正所以這個時間是一個關鍵時刻特別針對於加強企業對於政策了解的這個程度我個人認為這一點是在國會會你在制定很多的相關的這個制度跟執法的時候這一點"},{"start":13103.243,"end":13119.266,"text":"企業的部分務必一定要加入這個因子進去 國科會那麼所以在整個台灣AI治理的三個核心面向包括制度的一個強度組成的能力跟透明的一個治理我們看到雖然"},{"start":13119.827,"end":13140.56,"text":"我們目前在動但是如果跟歐美地區來比較起來似乎我們還有很大的一個空間去追所以在這樣的一個情況之下歐盟它已經有完整的一個法制美國也努力在開發這個模型我們現在是在整個基本的一個框架"},{"start":13141.54,"end":13170.081,"text":"那歐盟有AI的HT它也有罰則有風險的一個分歧所以國科會跟速發部也就是說我們是否針對於高風險AI強制的一個審查制度那我們這個制度要怎麼樣去建立而且特別在AI的一個責任歸屬的一個制度也是在你們現在在修正這些執法裡頭非常重要的元素速發部請先回答"},{"start":13170.841,"end":13199.825,"text":"是跟委員報告人工智慧基本法通過以後抒發部已經把人工智慧風險分類的框架已經送到行政院那在同一個時間其實國科會指導底下還有三政委平台的指導底下我們已經跟各部會開始基於風險框架去做協作盤點應該修訂哪些法律然後剛剛有提到送到行政院的是然後"},{"start":13200.665,"end":13227.464,"text":"特别要跟委员报告的在跟国外的这个对接的部分欧盟其实他的欧盟的这个人工智慧法因为整个架构太过复杂而且缺乏弹性所以其实他们有提出一个新的这个法案是在讨论修正他们叫做EU的OMNIMUS这个法案他们想要简化某些流程"},{"start":13227.984,"end":13253.184,"text":"那在我們針對高風險的部分呢我們會協助各部會去針對各部會所主管的業務範圍內特定的AI的應用場景底下的風險是不是屬於高風險會去做評估和識別那如果是高風險的話依據基本法的規定會需要有評測工具那會需要有標示"},{"start":13253.664,"end":13272.142,"text":"那會需要有這個救濟或是保險的制度那這些因應呢我們都會跟各部會去協作那我們同時也跟今晚會也有在討論在保險的部分是不是可以有一些就是推動的方向"},{"start":13273.243,"end":13295.018,"text":"因为各部会对主管的业务范围内AI的应用场景必须要先做盘点我们会针对比较成熟的那应用广泛的风险程度高的是的这非常重要因为世界各国他们走在前端有很多他的优缺点我们可以拿来做这个参考国会要不要补充"},{"start":13300.083,"end":13318.519,"text":"国会会跟苏哈不会一起努力是一起努力接下来本席要跟讨论的就是刚刚中原也说我们有这个能力但是有很多的这个能力跟预算方面他们也提出所以我个人还是要讨论一个就是说"},{"start":13319.72,"end":13342.116,"text":"在我們所有的企業界裡頭我們到底要怎麼樣尤其國科會這邊我們要怎麼樣能夠協助企業來做這個運用AI現在似乎所有的企業大家都趕快派人出來來學習也就AI人才的一個訓練在目前的情況是如此但是我們也看到有一個做統計"},{"start":13343.237,"end":13354.705,"text":"也超過五成的受訪人員認為高科技最快能夠導入AI那消費跟零售服務業金融業大概是15.9%醫療生技的部分大概是11.2%國防軍工是4%傳統產業"},{"start":13360.209,"end":13385.071,"text":"製造僅有2%所以我個人還是要請政府無論如何要加強協助中小企業的一個進行轉型因為我們顯示出有4成的業者包括傳統產業跟科技的廠商都希望政府可以來加重這一塊那同時也希望在專屬的補助跟獎勵方面可以有更"},{"start":13388.214,"end":13398.103,"text":"這個專門的這個部分呢加速AI的一個落地那當然這必須要跨部位但是三位是靈魂是靈魂指揮中心來這個謝謝這個洪偉的報告"},{"start":13401.326,"end":13423.691,"text":"其實我們很少就注意到這個問題我們覺得最快的方式是從業界來訓練所以三四年前我們成立一個叫人工智慧學校不屬於我們中研院的編制但是現在董事長是我們的院長但是所有的裡面的老師我們包括我們執行長像都是我們院裡的人員我們就從各個產業裡面去挑他們來報名我們覺得他對業務最少"},{"start":13428.832,"end":13444.867,"text":"那從這裡去訓練他們會最快結果我們現在回報是很多產業都非常感謝我們幫他們訓練這方面的人才非常好所以這個部分怎麼樣加強國科會在整個企業界裡頭我們到底要怎麼樣去協助他們"},{"start":13445.928,"end":13463.709,"text":"各位報告其實國科會跟經濟部我們有一起合作在推動這個中小企業導入AI的部分我們希望這個中小企業跟學界的老師可以相互合作來盡早的將AI導入他們的目前也就是產業界都非常積極"},{"start":13464.71,"end":13484.827,"text":"请他们的人员出来学习AI的人才但是学了之后他到底要怎么放第二阶段这个才是重点所以你把你的方案顺便资料给本席谢谢谢谢杨琼英委员的质询请官员回座接下来有请张亚玲委员进行询答"},{"start":13491.892,"end":13515.367,"text":"谢谢主席有请抒发部次长侯次长请抒发部谢谢侯次长好哦看到你在这边质询你质询你毕竟我们以前过去是一起写AI基本法的现在一起我想接下来就想要请教一个关于因为其实在AI基本法我一直非常关注的一个重点就是关于儿少的影响的部分"},{"start":13515.888,"end":13538.65,"text":"所以在這次的兒少影響性評估裡面我有看到說我們做了這個評估但是其實裡面完全沒有兒少的聲音那速發部是告訴我們說因為時間有限所以沒有辦法參與但是其實在行政院內政處在專家諮詢會議上面也非常明確的建議說應該要邀請我們的兒權會的兒少委員所以我想了解為什麼我們還是沒有納入任何一位兒少的聲音呢"},{"start":13540.619,"end":13556.974,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為在12月23號基本法通過以後附帶決議要求我們在三個月內要做三個影響評估報告那我們在這個過程中因為又"},{"start":13558.195,"end":13584.975,"text":"牽涉到就是中間有過年的時間那需要去做各部會的協調因為這個影響評估也不是就是不是只有我抒發部主責那還有其他包括是由吳政委這邊然後還有這個就是跟院內的這個就是性評處人權處但我想坦白說但我想因為我們還是可以邀請嘛因為其實我們自己行政院本來就有兒權會了嘛"},{"start":13587.236,"end":13613.546,"text":"我们接下来会持续滚动调整不是故意不邀请我想因为这个儿少影响性评估的报告它却没有儿少的声音我认为是一个蛮大的问题所以我在想接下来我待会会再跟您讨论这个问题但是我觉得有一个东西就是在这一次的问卷里面我们虽然是参考了国际的风险管理通用的办法去把可能性跟影响程度上面做出了一些评分"},{"start":13614.326,"end":13631.725,"text":"但是我認為有一些是根本就不能夠評分它應該直接列為禁止事項例如就是說兒少性剝削的影像生成的問題這些其實根本或是兒少詐騙的這些勒索合成性影像的勒索等等的"},{"start":13632.165,"end":13645.961,"text":"這些都應該是直接列為禁止且不能夠被接受的事項那展翅協會其實在會議之中或是他們後續要跟我們反映的時候也都有提到應該要有一條明確的界線那我想不曉得說"},{"start":13647.482,"end":13668.139,"text":"這個次長您的看法又是怎麼樣呢是不是應該有一個明確的界限直接說這個是完全禁止的事項跟委員報告我們在整個風險評估框架裡面包括了四個步驟第一個步驟是辨識這個盤點應用場景那第二個步驟是在特定的應用場景底下有哪些風險是識別風險那第三個步驟是評估這些風險"},{"start":13673.743,"end":13701.901,"text":"的嚴重性和發生的可能性那第四個步驟就是剛剛您說到的到底針對哪些風險我們要做什麼樣的因應措施那這些因應措施確實包括了您說的是不是直接要進採取禁止的措施或者是必須要先審視或是要用什麼樣子的方式來限制那在這個評估報告裡面我們其實做到第三步是沒錯"},{"start":13702.421,"end":13721.19,"text":"那后续我们会持续其实已经开始包括会有第四条线直接把红线画出来嘛对不对是的那就非常好因为我想就是因为次长您过去也对这个议题非常非常的关注嘛所以我相信就是说我也期待说我们还是秉持这样子的专业在守护我们的儿少"},{"start":13721.97,"end":13746.56,"text":"就是在哪一條完全不可以跨越的紅線就應該要直接把它踩下去列出一個明確的所以接下來另外一個問題就是說其實因為在很多的團體裡面也有告訴我們其實在你們自己的會議應該都有收集到這些資料就是說我們對於這個問卷上面非常難以填寫而且不是只有一個專家學者這樣子講可以看到光這個名單上面就有五個人說這份問卷非常難填寫所以您剛有提到說會做滾動"},{"start":13748.18,"end":13759.346,"text":"但是如果用這個方式做滾動式修正連大人都非常困難兒少一定是更加困難那對於這個部分的話我們是不是會重新檢討我們現在的一個研究的這個架構呢"},{"start":13761.454,"end":13782.513,"text":"是 跟委员报告因为这一次其实是实诚的关系我们又希望尽量能够征询多数委员的意见多数专家学者的意见因为当时要进行比如说工作法或是审议了解了解 因为时间有限了对 我想是不是未来我们其实在这个现在的问询架构之下研究流程上面我们都会重新做设计会的"},{"start":13782.933,"end":13805.861,"text":"因為不然這個到時候收集到的意見要如何執行在現場跟實務上面用都非常的困難那第二個就是回到我剛剛講的我們還是需要納入兒少的聲音那其實在過去呢兒少大會裡面也有提到說他們其實希望各個部會裡面呢是不是都可以有這個我們的兒犬小組那是不是也可以趁這一次呢速發部也來"},{"start":13806.721,"end":13821.406,"text":"研議是不是來成立我們自己的兒選小組因為接下來我們要做滾動式修正嘛因為AI的變化非常非常的快是不是也可以就來成立這樣子的兒選小組我們就可以更快的諮詢到這些兒少團體的兒少代表的意見呢是"},{"start":13822.146,"end":13838.946,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在是跟各部會進行協作那因為各部會都會需要透過這個流程所以我們的基本原則是希望運用原有既有的制定的機制然後我們把這個新的觀點放進去所以我們會跟但是這樣就會擔心時間會變討論時間變小變少嗎"},{"start":13842.39,"end":13868.109,"text":"那一定會稀釋掉嘛那我們會跟衛福部這邊因為我們其實在過程中都跟衛福部那邊有聯繫請他們提供意見名單那我們會跟衛福部這邊來做協作那看怎麼樣能夠把這部分的聲音盡量能夠具體呈現出來我也認為這個非常重要抱歉喔 因為其實當然衛福部他這邊本來就有自己的兒少的推動小組他本來就有這個推動小組嘛"},{"start":13868.769,"end":13888.9,"text":"但是說我們是不是也就可以在速發部裡面也就來成立因為這個問題看起來就是會持續因為兒童對於網路安全的這個相關的議題來說其實是非常脆弱的我們應該要更積極的去了解他們現實的狀況所以如果我們可以有一個兒圈小組我們就可以更積極的去了解他們的意見收集他們的意見是不是可以這麼做"},{"start":13889.42,"end":13914.151,"text":"可以研議是不是在兒少成立一個在技術面諮詢的這個兒少的小組但是還是要跟委員報告因為各個主管機關他們必須要去做最後因應的決定所以像剛剛我們識別出來這些非常高優先序的風險還是要由衛福部他們去基於他們的職長決定因應的措施"},{"start":13914.791,"end":13939.803,"text":"大家都還是要諮詢然後對照我們現在剛剛講的其實就是一個更方便速發布可以更積極更快速及時的得到兒少的意見所以這部分可以研議對嗎是的大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤相關的結果我們一個月內給委員回應好嗎謝謝你謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢請官員回座接下來有請洪玉祥委員進行詢答"},{"start":13950.492,"end":13959.442,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請這個中研院國科會速發布請三個機關代表上備巡台 謝謝"},{"start":13963.041,"end":13991.913,"text":"好演好好各位長官好來下一頁這邊的話我剛看就是看完你們這個交出來的一個報告我們在因為今天的題目是主權AI AI主權那在當時國科會對不對在我們的這個台德的這個計畫裡頭的起始是很早我這邊是先讚美中研院起碼在報告裡頭是有提到台德計畫"},{"start":13993.695,"end":14016.977,"text":"好幾次 國科會 速發部 沒有國科會這你自己生的孩子 現在應該放在哪裡跟委員報告 現在台熱還是在持續進行當中我們正在跟 還是在國科會 還是跟中醫院在合作那主要的話誰負責 ownership 誰負責"},{"start":14018.884,"end":14023.254,"text":"我們是一起在做協作我最怕聽到這種一起了緣有頭債有主"},{"start":14026.974,"end":14055.456,"text":"那個跟委員報告我是中研院資訊所所長廖鴻元那現在是這樣齁整個台德計畫它是大型語言模型那而且是反理制這個我知道你只要回答我說那個對現在是這樣齁現在模型的優化是在中研院那我把我我把多模態的加進來了也就是把影像所以將來成功失敗都是中研院負責這件事情是這樣"},{"start":14056.024,"end":14061.37,"text":"我參與過資訊領域的 國科會生的小孩 現在如果在學校培育就是中研院 如果在學校不好 都是中研院"},{"start":14075.751,"end":14093.389,"text":"這樣可以啦好請中研院請回來中研我感謝你中研院可以請回其他兩位單位蘇發部國科會留在台上謝謝好接下來的話呢就是說政府針對台德計畫投入這樣的預算大概就是8億"},{"start":14095.106,"end":14107.202,"text":"因為這些預算一定都是國科會編的國科會不給我們錢我們其他部會也做不出來那到這邊的話這一個Government Tide的話就G-Tide政府機關作為示範場域這一個誰負責"},{"start":14112.063,"end":14127.388,"text":"跟委員報告GTI的這一塊是谷歌在幫忙在做這個導入現在是有在做試用好那多少機關用使用狀況頻率反饋誰可以幫我們回答資訊處不在"},{"start":14129.284,"end":14137.068,"text":"因為我們都號稱說要讓政府機關作為專用的示範場域自己生的小孩如果自己不用對不對自己種的菜自己不吃別人要吃很困難再來速發布"},{"start":14159.352,"end":14167.157,"text":"速發部在這裡頭我也支持這個概念打造主權AI的一個訓練的語料庫預200個機關參與上架預3500筆資料集累計預12億個tokens"},{"start":14173.567,"end":14196.06,"text":"好 當然十二億token真的是很不夠非常遠遠不夠那我的問題就是說這到底全國有兩千七百多個機關所以真正參與到目前為止大概七到八個percent那如果把你們寫的數字三千五百去除以現在兩百十七點五筆資料平均每一個單位"},{"start":14198.325,"end":14204.884,"text":"能看嗎還是說這個是又要告訴我說這是預算問題如果預算就要問隔壁那個國科會了"},{"start":14207.414,"end":14235.009,"text":"確實第一個跟委員報告剛剛講的這個台德的計畫裡面8億6913.8萬元裡面並沒有包括語料庫的建置那語料庫的建置目前我們有邀請到200個機關參與那每一個機關我們都非常非常感謝他們那實際上參與的機關其實他們都盡可能的拿出了更多的資料"},{"start":14235.669,"end":14255.019,"text":"那這些還沒有參與的機關當然委員也知道是大多數我們會繼續努力那也跟地方政府這邊我們也持續在推進當中那這些的因為上次的話我有書面質詢但報告還沒給我因為這裡頭牽扯到一個很重要的問題"},{"start":14256.445,"end":14273.072,"text":"因為這些的資料如果你要有價值的話那有些東西你還是要去購買對不對所以這裡頭到底是怎麼去維運這個主權壓餘料庫的那現在我的問題是說台德有沒有用你的餘料庫"},{"start":14274.901,"end":14302.748,"text":"跟委員報告台德現在有在用這個餘料庫有在用我們在其實在餘料庫釋出前就已經跟中研院已經在討論有就好我怕的是沒有再下一個再來因為今天大概就比較倒楣只有速發部在經濟部我也問過國發基金這倒是我再來問就是台德當初的目的是要"},{"start":14303.973,"end":14331.676,"text":"其實是讓我們主權AI所以不管是怎麼樣子也就是說台灣的一些模型但混合Multiple Model都可以我的問題是速發部這邊我們根據你交的報告輔導242家企業者開發266項AI模型服務80家產品化這些AI模型跟服務有沒有不要講架構有多少是使用了台德的這樣的模型"},{"start":14333.254,"end":14348.613,"text":"報告委員這個部分其實是您提到的這個數字是我們提供算力的部分就是算力上面的這個業者開發的部分那有多少運用到有去統計嗎"},{"start":14349.994,"end":14368.986,"text":"我等一下請這個庶產署這邊來回覆那另外也要跟委員報告是我們今年有一個新的計劃是很明確會用到台德然後跟業者一起合作那這個預算就是要請委員支持這樣那我請這個庶產署這邊來回應一下"},{"start":14372.872,"end":14396.019,"text":"報告委員那台德的話我們在去年就上架讓業者使用不過相關的數據我們要再回去再排一下好 回去之後再交給我報告好不好好 謝謝因為我只想要知道台灣花了這麼多錢在做主權內安做出來我當然是希望都有這個方向是支持的但是我說過政府的所有的執行計畫"},{"start":14398.199,"end":14415.155,"text":"說實在的都是執行力的問題然後你的KPI設的對不對的問題我想這個是給你們參考因為我也太熟你們了所以我們就省略客套下一頁再下一頁那張圖 對"},{"start":14417.011,"end":14436.597,"text":"我希望因為國科會其實掌管著我們的科技預算這一點我是非常有意見的因為學術歸學術的科技預算產業的歸產業的其實產業的需求產業要去市場打仗的這個最清楚產業的技術它可能沒有辦法那麼遠"},{"start":14437.915,"end":14461.083,"text":"但短中的這些要攻城掠地的所以我在想請各位去借助一下韓國的AI國家戰略非常的清楚 非常清楚第一步我一定是先充實我的算力所以你4萬張GPU追加跟NVIDIA 26萬張總共是30萬張它會在網上堆疊網上堆疊之後它把公共領域的算力分配5萬張"},{"start":14463.339,"end":14491.368,"text":"民間領域的話就給他21萬張也就是他總共跟NVIDIA買的26加上他原本的4萬然後他的目的很清楚我都會背了所以我還不得不佩服我們的何振宇韓國首席的AI策略長首席長也就是說我先把我的算力弄完然後做完這些主權的AI的資料模型下一個就是要發揮台灣的特色就是你垂直領域的推論"},{"start":14493.066,"end":14516.034,"text":"那垂直領域的推論就很清楚你有工廠 你有製造化 你有physical的AI所以不管是現代 SK這些的集團就會進來那這個東西的話你就會再做到所謂的製造業的 對不對做到這個智慧移動的我想這一塊給各位參考 非常清楚"},{"start":14517.088,"end":14543.794,"text":"三階段的一個動程然後這個最後是生態系出來所以如果我們的算力真的不夠就請國科會要幫忙第二個很重要的我最後一個十秒就好請國科會不要只看硬體我們AI整個軟體關鍵技術的發展也多給我們這些產業跟相關的部會的支持好不好 謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14545.404,"end":14547.184,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":14575.585,"end":14580.843,"text":"主席好,麻煩請速發部國科會好,有請速發部國科會上備詢談"},{"start":14587.952,"end":14609.337,"text":"我們現在講AI其實大家都說台灣的AI算蠻厲害但是都是在講硬體包括像我們現在股市都漲那麼多其實很多都AI的相關但都是屬於硬體部分但我覺得在軟體這一塊明明台灣有很好的條件可是台灣的軟體我不知道現在政府對於軟體的投入多少"},{"start":14610.597,"end":14630.847,"text":"我們其實在上個世代像電子支付這些的台灣的軟體好像都有一些並沒有跟上社群媒體等等現在AI軟體好不容易又有一個新的機會到底我們對於AI軟體的輔導或者是給予的資源有沒有可能出現我們AI軟體的獨角獸"},{"start":14632.388,"end":14651.164,"text":"我覺得政府也應該要去重視這一塊那現在業界比較重視的東西最主要跟兩位講最主要就是在算力因為大部分商業的軟體就是AI軟體他們要做機器人的話其實還是主要是跟國外的三大運在租算力"},{"start":14651.784,"end":14674.351,"text":"可是這個費用是非常驚人的他要做一個對話機器人比如說好了要放在大賣場然後去跟那個機器人顧客去跟機器人對話比如說要找產品或者是詢問我要買什麼東西那請問東西在哪裡然後要問一些細節可能五分鐘他的算力就是非常可觀這個我不知道書畫部知道這事嗎應該知道嘛"},{"start":14679.126,"end":14701.453,"text":"我們知道就是業界他們現在在後端會去對接各個不同的這個就是大圓模型但是在技術的發展中我們速發部現在也在推進就是台灣本土的小模型小圓模型的開發你不要答非所問好不好"},{"start":14702.153,"end":14719.353,"text":"就是我現在只是在講說現在我們在從軟體業界軟體的需求去探討這件事情你不用去跟我扯到你有沒有去研發小語言那個是另外一回事啦我不要答非所問那所以如果說我們站在因為我們的無限的創意是在民間嘛"},{"start":14719.833,"end":14746.87,"text":"如果今天政府能夠站在輔導知道他們缺什麼然後我們來協助他們的話我們可能就會出現非常多就是很厲害的AI軟體甚至可以走向國際跟世界所以你要去幫忙解決問題那大家現在最在意的就是算力因為現在算力的費用非常可觀那我想請教一下我們政府一直在講說要建立算力中心那現在大概是要編列多少預算來做"},{"start":14753.952,"end":14773.76,"text":"多少預算跟我也回報我們在AI信實大建設裡面有大概編列40幾億在40幾億做編列40幾億做算力115年今年你終極目標是要花多少錢終極目標"},{"start":14778.934,"end":14794.438,"text":"像我們在沙倫的AI Data Center的部分我們目前就是在主機的部分大概有123億4年到117年4年編了123億以沙倫的AI Data Center除了這之外還有嗎?"},{"start":14800.506,"end":14816.726,"text":"剛剛講的是不包含就是土建的部分那另外還有其他目前還有已經包含在金創那邊有相關的資源投入所以總共多少嗎你們知道馬斯克他要建立那個算力中心你知道總共花多少錢嗎你們知道多少嗎"},{"start":14820.39,"end":14847.512,"text":"馬斯克他建算力中心總共花了五十億美金五十億美金就是一千多億台幣啊那你現在是編一百多億嘛對所以我們國家的資源投入是一百多億啊那請問一下你覺得夠嗎各位委員幫我們會再做持續的你已經編到一百一十七年了四年你四年的計畫也才這樣而已啊而且這個算力只會越來越多"},{"start":14849.85,"end":14865.376,"text":"所以我們現在是會採公司協議的方式跟民間多多合作來去跟民間合作是所以其實感覺上是有點不足啦但第二個問題就是那我們現在國家建制的算力中心如果軟體業者他要來使用的話"},{"start":14866.016,"end":14892.472,"text":"那是用什麼方式 租 然後補助還是用這個用什麼方式我們現在國網中心所擁有的算力中心我們現在有提供一個叫AI WRAP的平台那我們有大略規劃了三分之一的算力是提供給新創的業者或者中小企業他們可以來做申請那我們會有些補助是補助"},{"start":14893.112,"end":14899.917,"text":"對 我們有一些那這是優惠啦會有一些優惠那是怎麼樣的優惠它大概價格跟一般它如果去租三大雲的話會差到多少"},{"start":14903.118,"end":14922.755,"text":"會差到多少一定比他們便宜啦只是說不會我們因為一定比較便宜我知道啊你難道比較貴人家會跟你租嗎對對沒有因為基本上大概是便宜多少為什麼今天你們回答問題都我們都有定價啦那至於說是便宜多少嘛我覺得我沒有記錄到比例你已經花納稅人的錢建制了對不對是"},{"start":14923.035,"end":14940.461,"text":"那為什麼要花納稅人的錢建制就是希望能夠透過一些方式去輔導我們產業的發展因為它可能是未來下一顆星星啊你們不是有強調自己AI內閣嗎所以你的租金當然比外國便宜啊不然誰要跟你租我現在問的是你租金大概便宜多少嘛"},{"start":14942.302,"end":14963.235,"text":"這個我回去查他們的價格一直在變啦因為這個變化很快那我們的定價都出來你們制定一個政策做一件事情制定了一個政策都沒有去思考說我價格大概定到多少我幫助得了產業喔都沒有去想這個問題喔我現在問理論上這個東西你應該對答如流了還要回去查喔"},{"start":14964.682,"end":14980.953,"text":"跟委員報了,抒發部這邊有這個篆力的支持那那個部分是透過審查流程是免費的所以是新創來跟抒發部申請都免費是不是?是那審查要件是什麼?審查要件我請這個庶產署的同仁跟您補充"},{"start":14982.995,"end":14995.633,"text":"報告委員我們審查要件就是他的新引信還有他可以產品化這些等等這些對那個產業的發展AI產業發展比較多的這樣子的一些要件那請問一下他申請那個算力有上限嗎"},{"start":14997.317,"end":15017.103,"text":"我們還是要看就是有上限嗎?上限是多少?我們大概是用點數來算大概1萬點2萬點1萬點2萬點是指什麼?一個月1萬點2萬點?不是我們就是一個週期一個週期大概一個月那1萬點一個點數我們大概是算就是10萬Token這樣子10萬Token"},{"start":15017.943,"end":15035.622,"text":"類似這樣子就是有一個定量因為我們的算力不足所以我們就是用排隊的方式排隊所以就是很有限嘛就講得好像很厲害然後什麼AI那個講了一大堆然後業界真正需要的算力就是很有限嘛然後問個價格也講不太清楚"},{"start":15036.303,"end":15063.422,"text":"好啦那我知道你們一直在講政府一直在講主權AI 主權AI啦但是說實在的政府當然有發展主權AI的需求啦可是其實業界對於主權AI期望不高啦大家都認為這個跟他們比較沒有關係其實算力才是最相關的你應該如果假設我們想要輔導我們的AI軟體的話真的算力這一塊應該要多投入一些資源比起主權AI啦"},{"start":15064.102,"end":15068.096,"text":"那我想問一下你們講的主權AI是指大圓模型嗎?"},{"start":15070,"end":15096.209,"text":"跟委員報告主權AI其實不只是大語言模型有沒有包括會包括大語言模型但是更重要的是人才資料、善力整合能夠訓練AI的一個能力當然都需要因為這是一個整體我想請教一下我們現在要建置自己的大語言模型現在有趕上兩年前的OpenAI嗎"},{"start":15100.134,"end":15111.12,"text":"誰可以回答?數碼部,數碼部不能回答嗎?你們不是輔導軟體的嗎?我們現在的主權AI大圓模型有沒有趕上兩年前的OpenAI?"},{"start":15111.755,"end":15133.154,"text":"委員指的主權AI是指哪一個模型就是大語言模型我們現在政府的要發展的大語言模型我們在策略上面速發部並不主著重於大語言模型的開發我們著重的是特用型的模型那並不是要去開發一個像OpenAI那樣子的Frontiers模型所以我們的主權AI不是大語言模型是特用模型"},{"start":15133.574,"end":15155.879,"text":"应该是说如果委员说的主权AI的话我们书发部应该不是在专注在您所定义的这个模型这个上面而是在建构整个台湾主权AI能力包括您刚所提到的人才资料然后资金算力这些能力上面那"},{"start":15157.159,"end":15166.547,"text":"委員剛剛講的主權內在的大語言模型是不是專門指這個台德的部分可能要請中原院來跟您說明那請中原院"},{"start":15169.911,"end":15198.262,"text":"向委員報告那您剛提到這個OpenAI的模型那我們確實有拿一個OpenAI的模型作為參考的基準它去年有一顆叫做OSS20B的模型那我們拿它來當作一個參考那我們的模型的在一些我們這個公務系統的一些應用上面的服務呢它的這個對於台灣的知識台灣的這個認知的這個能力呢是有超越原版的這個這個OpenAI的這個OSS的模型所以我們我們現在已經超過"},{"start":15199.102,"end":15211.633,"text":"超過了 OpenAIChap GPT已經超過它了它其中一顆比較小的模型我們有超過它有超過一顆比較小的模型那我講的大語言的模型呢"},{"start":15213.378,"end":15239.077,"text":"他是比较小的大型元模型那加油啦我是那个中越资讯所我也是台德跟台德计划里面刚刚您讲的那个东西我们大型元模型我们台湾以我们的那个规模我们人口的规模这些东西我们没有办法跟Google或者是OpenAI这种大公司来pd这种general的LLM"},{"start":15239.497,"end":15264.152,"text":"是沒有辦法的我們能做的就是說把他的東西當做一個Foundation Model帶到中油經過Supervised Fine Tuning或Pre-training來帶到中油讓我們的百工百業在中油我們有比較大的軟體公司來做到中油或者是像中原或者是國科會這樣的政府機構來幫助我們的中小企業把上面那種大型元模型想辦法"},{"start":15265.82,"end":15293.381,"text":"帶到中油來然後呢讓中油再做一個平台來support我們台灣的百工百業所以我們沒有能力因為我們就像剛剛講的算力我問這個問題主要是這樣就是說我們大家講一個AI講得很大方向很大但是真正落實到大家真正的需求有沒有真的具體的照顧得到啦就是說就像主權AI喊得很大因為我們每個國家都有主權AI"},{"start":15294.542,"end":15320.79,"text":"但是實際上做出來的東西大家真的用不用得到還是說其實大部分的人還是會去用比如說Google啊或者是對不對這是大家關切的問題所以不要談太多口號我跟委員報告一下是有實際用到的比如說我們最近用了一個影像的部分我們就在上游的部分就用YOLOv7 YOLOv9這是我們台灣中研院自己發展出來的世界級的"},{"start":15321.75,"end":15342.726,"text":"物件真正系統那翼龍電子新竹的上市公司翼龍電子他把它加工以後結合聯發科跟聯詠的12奈米的晶片還有NVIDIA的ORIN的晶片把它合在一起軟硬體結合以後訓練一個中油的平台放在CCTV上面"},{"start":15343.186,"end":15369.419,"text":"因為以前我們的六都我們的CCDB在譬如說交通中心的話看到都只是看到video但是都沒有做任何的處理但是現在翼龍電的這個系統呢它是等於結合剛剛講的這個軟體跟硬體用台灣本土的帶到中油去它現在這個CCDB是用在高雄的捷運的車廂裡面那這車廂裡面它就可以去觀察車廂裡面的狀態OK 對那這是實際的用途好 謝謝"},{"start":15375.933,"end":15385.475,"text":"好谢谢叶元之委员的质询请官员回座蔡义渝委员蔡义渝委员蔡义渝委员不到"},{"start":15386.739,"end":15414.255,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢詢答結束那關於本日會議呢做出以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料均列入記錄刊登公報對於委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關的機關盡速以書面答覆那報告委員會"},{"start":15414.915,"end":15420.497,"text":"今日议程全部处理完毕大家辛苦了现在休息散会"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}