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Day"},{"start":2521.7,"end":2525.58,"text":"推動AI技術於多元場域導入驗證與應用"},{"start":2525.58,"end":2527.2599999999998,"text":"那在資金方面呢"},{"start":2527.2599999999998,"end":2530.58,"text":"我們也推動加強投資AI新創實施方案"},{"start":2530.58,"end":2535.7,"text":"由國發基金匡列100億為期10年的這個受理投資"},{"start":2535.7,"end":2540.14,"text":"強化AI新創與數位經濟產業的發展動能"},{"start":2540.14,"end":2543.1,"text":"出發部將持續關注於AI主權"},{"start":2543.1,"end":2544.22,"text":"國際趨勢"},{"start":2544.22,"end":2546.14,"text":"經濟擴展餘料庫"},{"start":2547.49,"end":2549.0099999999998,"text":"供AI訓練應用"},{"start":2549.0099999999998,"end":2551.73,"text":"以支持推動我國主權AI的運用"},{"start":2551.73,"end":2553.0099999999998,"text":"已經公告的這個"},{"start":2553.0099999999998,"end":2557.85,"text":"徵求民間自行規劃參與AI算力中心POO案"},{"start":2557.85,"end":2561.05,"text":"不僅是我國手中指標型的數位建設"},{"start":2561.05,"end":2562.17,"text":"財促參案"},{"start":2562.17,"end":2564.85,"text":"更是象徵政府與民間攜手建構"},{"start":2564.85,"end":2568.05,"text":"完善國家算力基礎設施的重大政策"},{"start":2568.05,"end":2568.85,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":2568.85,"end":2569.81,"text":"進行指教"},{"start":2569.81,"end":2570.33,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2571.4,"end":2574.32,"text":"謝謝書發部侯次長的報告"},{"start":2574.32,"end":2576.48,"text":"機關代表報告完畢"},{"start":2576.48,"end":2578.96,"text":"相關書面資料請各位參閱"},{"start":2578.96,"end":2580.96,"text":"並列入公報紀錄"},{"start":2581.73,"end":2584.4500000000003,"text":"由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢"},{"start":2584.4500000000003,"end":2585.57,"text":"尚未確定"},{"start":2585.57,"end":2587.65,"text":"現在先確定議事錄"},{"start":2587.65,"end":2588.81,"text":"請問各位委員"},{"start":2588.81,"end":2590.33,"text":"上次會議的議事錄"},{"start":2590.33,"end":2591.73,"text":"有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2592.61,"end":2593.9300000000003,"text":"好議事錄確定"},{"start":2596.48,"end":2599.32,"text":"我們現在開始進行詢答"},{"start":2599.32,"end":2601.8,"text":"每位出席委員質詢六分鐘"},{"start":2601.8,"end":2603.84,"text":"必要時延長兩分鐘"},{"start":2603.84,"end":2606.92,"text":"列席委員質詢時間是四分鐘"},{"start":2606.92,"end":2610.88,"text":"發言登記截止時間是上午十點三十分"},{"start":2610.88,"end":2612.7200000000003,"text":"委員如果有臨時停案"},{"start":2612.7200000000003,"end":2615.88,"text":"請在十點三十分之前提出"},{"start":2615.88,"end":2620,"text":"並與本會委員羅廷瑋召委質詢結束後"},{"start":2620,"end":2621.48,"text":"即進行處理"},{"start":2621.48,"end":2622.7200000000003,"text":"處理提案時"},{"start":2622.7200000000003,"end":2626.04,"text":"若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場"},{"start":2626.04,"end":2627.84,"text":"原例不予處理"},{"start":2627.84,"end":2632.56,"text":"首先請登記第一位柯志恩委員進行詢答"},{"start":2637.67,"end":2638.67,"text":"謝謝召委"},{"start":2638.67,"end":2640.15,"text":"那我們想試試我們先請"},{"start":2640.15,"end":2642.11,"text":"速發部的侯次長好了"},{"start":2642.11,"end":2644.03,"text":"好有請速發部侯次長"},{"start":2652.69,"end":2653.81,"text":"次長好"},{"start":2653.81,"end":2657.4100000000003,"text":"我想我們非常感謝召委今天排定的這個AI主權時代"},{"start":2657.4100000000003,"end":2659.33,"text":"所衍生的非常多的一個問題"},{"start":2659.33,"end":2663.69,"text":"當然我們給予肯定我們AI基本法已經三讀通過"},{"start":2663.69,"end":2667.33,"text":"但是呢事情到現在我想面對於這個AI的時代"},{"start":2667.33,"end":2669.33,"text":"我們還是有很多的細節"},{"start":2669.33,"end":2670.77,"text":"我們需要做一個討論"},{"start":2670.77,"end":2672.13,"text":"在沒有進入主題之前"},{"start":2672.13,"end":2674.25,"text":"我是不是可以請問一下侯次長"},{"start":2674.25,"end":2677.9300000000003,"text":"這個高德地圖目前來說真是鬧得沸沸揚揚"},{"start":2677.9300000000003,"end":2680.53,"text":"每個人都說他可能有這個資安的疑慮"},{"start":2680.57,"end":2683.21,"text":"但是呢我們地方政府卻認為"},{"start":2683.21,"end":2686.8100000000004,"text":"目前為有並沒有所謂的個資外洩的一個問題"},{"start":2686.8100000000004,"end":2689.21,"text":"就你的觀點來去看的話"},{"start":2689.21,"end":2690.25,"text":"中央說有疑慮"},{"start":2690.25,"end":2692.25,"text":"地方說沒有資安的疑慮"},{"start":2692.25,"end":2694.57,"text":"那到底這個是誰的認知有問題"},{"start":2694.57,"end":2694.9700000000003,"text":"次長"},{"start":2698.65,"end":2699.13,"text":"是"},{"start":2699.13,"end":2702.4900000000002,"text":"首先就跟委員說明"},{"start":2702.4900000000002,"end":2704.33,"text":"依照這個原則"},{"start":2704.33,"end":2706.21,"text":"我們來處理的這個原則"},{"start":2706.21,"end":2709.81,"text":"是依據資通安全法第十一條的規定"},{"start":2709.81,"end":2713.9700000000003,"text":"就是公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家"},{"start":2713.9700000000003,"end":2714.4500000000003,"text":"我知道"},{"start":2714.4500000000003,"end":2717.13,"text":"我的意思說你們有做過這個評估"},{"start":2717.13,"end":2720.13,"text":"我相信因為當時特別提到了"},{"start":2720.13,"end":2723.77,"text":"高雄市交通局認為我們這些個資的資料沒有外洩"},{"start":2723.77,"end":2726.4500000000003,"text":"而且它純粹是用大數據的方式來"},{"start":2727.29,"end":2728.89,"text":"這個政府不進還好"},{"start":2728.89,"end":2731.5699999999997,"text":"一進它馬上就變成了下載的"},{"start":2731.5699999999997,"end":2733.5699999999997,"text":"上個禮拜還是第一名"},{"start":2733.5699999999997,"end":2736.5299999999997,"text":"現在今天變成這個禮拜變成第二名"},{"start":2736.5299999999997,"end":2739.6899999999996,"text":"所以說很顯然政府所謂的國安疑慮"},{"start":2739.6899999999996,"end":2745.25,"text":"跟所謂人民使用的這個部分裡面是有一些的落差的"},{"start":2745.25,"end":2746.81,"text":"那我想我還特別來問"},{"start":2746.81,"end":2749.97,"text":"而且不要忘記你們上一次也特別發布的"},{"start":2749.97,"end":2750.89,"text":"去年初發布"},{"start":2750.89,"end":2756.0099999999998,"text":"還有國安局認定有高風險的五款中國製造的APP當中"},{"start":2756.05,"end":2758.4100000000003,"text":"像抖音幾乎就是排名第四"},{"start":2758.4100000000003,"end":2762.8500000000004,"text":"微信小紅書在社交內排名大概第十跟第十一"},{"start":2762.8500000000004,"end":2766.69,"text":"我當然認為說政府替人民把關是天經地義的"},{"start":2766.69,"end":2769.65,"text":"但是你就應該檢視所有的APP"},{"start":2769.65,"end":2770.61,"text":"所以到目前為止"},{"start":2770.61,"end":2773.57,"text":"你們認為高德地圖還是有資安的危險嗎"},{"start":2773.57,"end":2775.8500000000004,"text":"像委員報告"},{"start":2775.8500000000004,"end":2779.4900000000002,"text":"高德地圖因為是這個中國廠商的地圖"},{"start":2779.4900000000002,"end":2782.25,"text":"那它會受到中國法律的拘束"},{"start":2782.25,"end":2782.65,"text":"是"},{"start":2782.69,"end":2784.57,"text":"那在中國的法律底下"},{"start":2784.57,"end":2786.61,"text":"就一句我們所了解"},{"start":2786.61,"end":2788.25,"text":"關於它的這個情報法"},{"start":2788.25,"end":2790.57,"text":"還有網路安全法的規定"},{"start":2790.57,"end":2794.05,"text":"中國政府是可以隨時取用這些使用者"},{"start":2794.05,"end":2796.25,"text":"我個人認為說還是一句話"},{"start":2796.25,"end":2798.4500000000003,"text":"你們為了這個資安的安全"},{"start":2798.4500000000003,"end":2799.85,"text":"你們可以做任何的事情"},{"start":2799.85,"end":2802.81,"text":"可是我覺得這個在發布這個之前"},{"start":2802.81,"end":2803.9700000000003,"text":"應該有更審慎"},{"start":2803.9700000000003,"end":2805.33,"text":"而且要一致的標準"},{"start":2805.33,"end":2807.9700000000003,"text":"你如果說這次有資安疑慮的話"},{"start":2807.9700000000003,"end":2808.9700000000003,"text":"到目前為止"},{"start":2808.9700000000003,"end":2810.9700000000003,"text":"大家還是要用我剛剛所條列的"},{"start":2811.0099999999998,"end":2813.45,"text":"不管是抖音或是小紅書等等之類的"},{"start":2813.45,"end":2815.97,"text":"所以我才說民眾的認知有一些的落差"},{"start":2815.97,"end":2819.73,"text":"而且就我們大家感受最深刻的來說"},{"start":2819.73,"end":2821.77,"text":"你如果說是用這個APP來說"},{"start":2821.77,"end":2823.29,"text":"你看這個書發布的"},{"start":2823.29,"end":2826.0099999999998,"text":"這個網路詐騙通訊的查詢網裡面"},{"start":2826.0099999999998,"end":2827.81,"text":"一個月詐騙平台分過來看"},{"start":2827.81,"end":2829.5699999999997,"text":"那個是個人個資的問題"},{"start":2829.5699999999997,"end":2830.89,"text":"到底有沒有資安的問題"},{"start":2830.89,"end":2832.0899999999997,"text":"每個人見仁見智"},{"start":2832.0899999999997,"end":2833.2099999999996,"text":"但是這個部分裡面"},{"start":2833.2099999999996,"end":2836.41,"text":"人民受傷最多的這個有關於詐騙的這個"},{"start":2836.41,"end":2838.1299999999997,"text":"所謂的APP的問題裡面"},{"start":2838.1299999999997,"end":2839.85,"text":"32萬子兒當中"},{"start":2839.89,"end":2842.0899999999997,"text":"Slate它佔了28.6"},{"start":2842.0899999999997,"end":2844.21,"text":"Facebook還佔了24.8"},{"start":2844.21,"end":2846.73,"text":"還有呢Instagram佔了17.2"},{"start":2846.73,"end":2848.61,"text":"這才是人民切身關切的"},{"start":2848.61,"end":2851.0099999999998,"text":"我們永遠都是在這告訴我們有國安疑慮"},{"start":2851.0099999999998,"end":2852.5299999999997,"text":"然後要禁要要禁要禁"},{"start":2852.5299999999997,"end":2853.49,"text":"我們不惜思考"},{"start":2853.49,"end":2854.93,"text":"為什麼大家用高德地圖"},{"start":2854.93,"end":2857.45,"text":"說實在我用了我也不覺得有那麼好用"},{"start":2857.45,"end":2859.0099999999998,"text":"很多人看法是不一樣"},{"start":2859.0099999999998,"end":2861.17,"text":"但是我個人覺得這個"},{"start":2861.17,"end":2863.21,"text":"有關於APP的標準來看"},{"start":2863.21,"end":2864.25,"text":"應該是一致的"},{"start":2864.25,"end":2865.5299999999997,"text":"像這個詐騙的部分"},{"start":2865.5299999999997,"end":2867.73,"text":"書發布目前為止訴所無策啊"},{"start":2867.73,"end":2869.33,"text":"所以到底哪個軟體"},{"start":2869.41,"end":2871.5299999999997,"text":"對於我們人民在使用的時候"},{"start":2871.5299999999997,"end":2874.65,"text":"最需要是去去應該提高警覺的"},{"start":2874.65,"end":2876.33,"text":"所以書發布在這個層面上面"},{"start":2876.33,"end":2878.61,"text":"也應該有更積極的一個作為嗎"},{"start":2878.61,"end":2880.37,"text":"是跟委員報告"},{"start":2880.37,"end":2883.09,"text":"就APP來說呢"},{"start":2883.09,"end":2887.73,"text":"其實還是必須看它所使用的準確法"},{"start":2887.73,"end":2890.89,"text":"那因為這些中國的APP呢"},{"start":2890.89,"end":2894.49,"text":"它有它原廠帝國的這個法規"},{"start":2894.49,"end":2896.37,"text":"跟其他國家不一樣"},{"start":2896.37,"end":2897.89,"text":"高德這部分次長"},{"start":2897.93,"end":2899.85,"text":"我同意你所有資安疑慮"},{"start":2899.85,"end":2901.0099999999998,"text":"你可以提出你的看法"},{"start":2901.0099999999998,"end":2902.65,"text":"我下次告訴你就是說"},{"start":2902.65,"end":2905.5299999999997,"text":"在目前跟人民最相關的當中"},{"start":2905.5299999999997,"end":2907.21,"text":"都是使用這些"},{"start":2907.21,"end":2908.6099999999997,"text":"那這些的部分裡面"},{"start":2908.6099999999997,"end":2911.5299999999997,"text":"他們其實詐騙的這個比率更高"},{"start":2911.5299999999997,"end":2913.21,"text":"那在這更高的狀況下"},{"start":2913.21,"end":2915.49,"text":"你會不會做出一些像是"},{"start":2915.49,"end":2918.41,"text":"高德一樣的警訊告訴大家"},{"start":2918.41,"end":2920.0899999999997,"text":"這些都是大家應該要注意的"},{"start":2920.0899999999997,"end":2921.93,"text":"我覺得才是書發布的角色跟責任"},{"start":2921.93,"end":2923.21,"text":"我所要強調的這一點"},{"start":2923.21,"end":2926.45,"text":"我並沒有說你們不應該去完全"},{"start":2926.49,"end":2928.49,"text":"就是不顧人民的這個資安問題"},{"start":2928.49,"end":2929.89,"text":"你要搞清楚我的重點"},{"start":2929.89,"end":2930.41,"text":"好不好"},{"start":2930.41,"end":2933.1299999999997,"text":"這個部分你應該更強調的去宣導"},{"start":2933.1299999999997,"end":2935.6499999999996,"text":"很多的詐騙是從來自於這些"},{"start":2935.64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end":3089.6800000000003,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":3089.6800000000003,"end":3091.76,"text":"因為學生比我們更了解這個資訊"},{"start":3091.76,"end":3093.6800000000003,"text":"他把他全部的資料丟進去"},{"start":3093.6800000000003,"end":3096.52,"text":"AI把他生成成老師都沒有辦法出來的"},{"start":3096.56,"end":3097.8,"text":"那這個部分你覺得有沒有"},{"start":3097.8,"end":3101.2,"text":"然後以至於在我們最後的這個文獻"},{"start":3101.2,"end":3103.52,"text":"文獻最後的那個參考資料部分"},{"start":3103.52,"end":3105.72,"text":"以前我們只要把這個出自哪裡"},{"start":3105.72,"end":3106.96,"text":"我們把它放出來就好"},{"start":3106.96,"end":3109.88,"text":"現在這麼多的整合"},{"start":3109.88,"end":3111.84,"text":"而且你們還要找到源頭"},{"start":3111.84,"end":3114.72,"text":"但是你要從AI的生成資料當中找到源頭"},{"start":3114.72,"end":3116.6,"text":"你要有一些技術跟方法"},{"start":3116.6,"end":3117.72,"text":"哎這叫我們怎麼辦"},{"start":3118.67,"end":3120.59,"text":"兩位學術單位你要怎麼辦"},{"start":3120.59,"end":3121.23,"text":"報告各位"},{"start":3121.23,"end":3123.9900000000002,"text":"我們這個眾院學術處已經有這個能力"},{"start":3123.9900000000002,"end":3125.9900000000002,"text":"而且我們有已經做這個動作"},{"start":3125.9900000000002,"end":3127.15,"text":"任何一個paper"},{"start":3127.15,"end":3128.27,"text":"任何一個計畫"},{"start":3128.27,"end":3130.39,"text":"我們都有辦法用AI去偵測"},{"start":3130.39,"end":3131.9900000000002,"text":"到底是AI生成的"},{"start":3131.9900000000002,"end":3133.47,"text":"還是AI改寫的"},{"start":3133.47,"end":3134.83,"text":"那改寫的哪一部分"},{"start":3134.83,"end":3136.35,"text":"我們都可以mark起來"},{"start":3136.35,"end":3137.35,"text":"這個這個"},{"start":3137.35,"end":3139.27,"text":"我現在不想看到"},{"start":3139.27,"end":3140.31,"text":"我們以前寫的paper"},{"start":3140.31,"end":3141.83,"text":"到最後被他做生成之後"},{"start":3141.83,"end":3144.07,"text":"我看到這個看起來很像是我以前的"},{"start":3144.07,"end":3146.27,"text":"可是又好像不是因為整合很多"},{"start":3146.27,"end":3147.47,"text":"都沒有這個狀況"},{"start":3147.5099999999998,"end":3149.39,"text":"然後以前你只要直指幾年級"},{"start":3149.39,"end":3150.99,"text":"什麼時候在什麼地方出版"},{"start":3150.99,"end":3153.5899999999997,"text":"你現在光是那個後面的參考資料"},{"start":3153.5899999999997,"end":3155.43,"text":"我看都需要重新的定義"},{"start":3155.43,"end":3157.1499999999996,"text":"眾院院有這三個部分"},{"start":3157.1499999999996,"end":3158.99,"text":"但是我覺得目前為止"},{"start":3158.99,"end":3161.47,"text":"還是這都是在AI基本法之前"},{"start":3161.47,"end":3163.0699999999997,"text":"你們就已經先做的"},{"start":3163.0699999999997,"end":3164.1899999999996,"text":"國科會也是"},{"start":3164.1899999999996,"end":3165.95,"text":"當目前基本法完之後"},{"start":3165.95,"end":3168.1899999999996,"text":"你們有沒有在這個所謂的參考之一上面"},{"start":3168.1899999999996,"end":3171.75,"text":"做更細緻的分工跟細緻的一個一個一個分法"},{"start":3171.75,"end":3172.31,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":3172.31,"end":3176.0299999999997,"text":"我們還會根據AI的生成是AI的進展"},{"start":3176.67,"end":3179.23,"text":"有針對這些內容在做一些調整"},{"start":3179.23,"end":3180.19,"text":"有在做調整"},{"start":3180.19,"end":3181.03,"text":"什麼時候我們可以看到"},{"start":3181.03,"end":3181.8700000000003,"text":"網站什麼時候可以看到"},{"start":3181.8700000000003,"end":3182.9100000000003,"text":"我們應該是隨時調整完"},{"start":3182.9100000000003,"end":3184.07,"text":"都會隨時的公告"},{"start":3184.07,"end":3185.19,"text":"我現在只身為老師"},{"start":3185.19,"end":3189.4700000000003,"text":"我真的覺得就會馬上遭遇到這樣一個問題"},{"start":3189.4700000000003,"end":3190.3500000000004,"text":"而且最重要是"},{"start":3190.3500000000004,"end":3191.7900000000004,"text":"我也同意你們說"},{"start":3191.7900000000004,"end":3192.8700000000003,"text":"會來只要用AI"},{"start":3192.8700000000003,"end":3194.8700000000003,"text":"還有一些輔水等等之類的"},{"start":3194.8700000000003,"end":3195.75,"text":"可是在學校裡面"},{"start":3195.75,"end":3198.4700000000003,"text":"不是每個人像你們兩個單位裡面可以做這樣"},{"start":3198.4700000000003,"end":3199.71,"text":"所以你們這樣的技術"},{"start":3199.71,"end":3203.03,"text":"是有辦法完全下放到所有的學術單位"},{"start":3203.03,"end":3204.71,"text":"任何公司立大學"},{"start":3204.75,"end":3206.67,"text":"168間的所有的公司大學"},{"start":3206.67,"end":3208.23,"text":"都可以來做這樣的使用"},{"start":3208.23,"end":3209.55,"text":"反正因為造成這些老師"},{"start":3209.55,"end":3211.83,"text":"我們中研院的部分是要購買"},{"start":3211.83,"end":3212.63,"text":"要有版權"},{"start":3212.63,"end":3215.11,"text":"要中研的IP才可以使用"},{"start":3215.11,"end":3216.39,"text":"那我們學校怎麼辦"},{"start":3216.39,"end":3217.91,"text":"我們今天老師看這學生報告"},{"start":3217.91,"end":3219.07,"text":"我好像寫"},{"start":3219.07,"end":3220.39,"text":"以前看到學生寫報告"},{"start":3220.39,"end":3221.19,"text":"我就給他很高"},{"start":3221.19,"end":3222.9900000000002,"text":"現在學生寫報告寫這麼完整"},{"start":3222.9900000000002,"end":3224.15,"text":"跟他平常表現不一樣"},{"start":3224.15,"end":3225.55,"text":"我都稍微質疑一下"},{"start":3225.55,"end":3228.11,"text":"這大學是用操作還是他自己想的"},{"start":3228.11,"end":3229.9900000000002,"text":"這個就會造成我們很大的困擾"},{"start":3229.9900000000002,"end":3231.19,"text":"那這部分怎麼辦"},{"start":3231.19,"end":3232.75,"text":"不能只有在民眾研院"},{"start":3232.79,"end":3235.27,"text":"郭柯文包括你未來在審查的時候"},{"start":3235.27,"end":3237.55,"text":"包括五年的創作的部分"},{"start":3237.55,"end":3238.95,"text":"都是我們審查的標準"},{"start":3238.95,"end":3240.15,"text":"你怎麼樣面對這個問題"},{"start":3241.69,"end":3242.33,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":3242.33,"end":3245.13,"text":"這個的確真的要回到學術的本質"},{"start":3245.13,"e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謝謝"},{"start":3723.73,"end":3724.77,"text":"那接下來本席"},{"start":3724.77,"end":3727.37,"text":"想先請教副主委一個問題"},{"start":3728.41,"end":3729.97,"text":"我們來看一下這個畫面"},{"start":3729.97,"end":3731.1299999999997,"text":"這個字有點小"},{"start":3731.1299999999997,"end":3733.41,"text":"當然問一下劉勝良"},{"start":3733.41,"end":3735.6499999999996,"text":"陳婉慧 邱承遠"},{"start":3735.6499999999996,"end":3738.0099999999998,"text":"目前是在立法院的哪一個委員會"},{"start":3742.23,"end":3743.11,"text":"好問題"},{"start":3743.11,"end":3744.79,"text":"這個問題要查一下才知道"},{"start":3744.79,"end":3745.79,"text":"好 沒問題"},{"start":3745.79,"end":3747.43,"text":"事實上不用查AI"},{"start":3747.43,"end":3748.43,"text":"問在場所有的人"},{"start":3748.43,"end":3748.95,"text":"我們都知道"},{"start":3748.95,"end":3751.11,"text":"這三位都已經不是現任的立委"},{"start":3751.11,"end":3752.07,"text":"但這個畫面"},{"start":3752.07,"end":3753.27,"text":"我們是使用"},{"start":3753.27,"end":3756.55,"text":"今年2月才釋出的台德模型"},{"start":3756.55,"end":3758.07,"text":"那他的回答"},{"start":3758.07,"end":3759.99,"text":"非常具有想像空間"},{"start":3759.99,"end":3763.07,"text":"說他們是台灣民眾黨"},{"start":3763.07,"end":3765.27,"text":"是會籍擔任副院長"},{"start":3765.27,"end":3766.91,"text":"各種的想像"},{"start":3766.91,"end":3768.75,"text":"而且還講了2025年底"},{"start":3768.75,"end":3770.11,"text":"所屬的委員會"},{"start":3770.15,"end":3772.03,"text":"有各種各種的想像"},{"start":3772.03,"end":3773.4300000000003,"text":"清楚的告訴我們"},{"start":3773.4300000000003,"end":3776.55,"text":"一個錯誤的宇宙好像真實一樣"},{"start":3776.55,"end":3779.51,"text":"但是我們理解資料是會出錯的"},{"start":3779.51,"end":3781.27,"text":"研究同仁都很努力"},{"start":3781.27,"end":3783.75,"text":"但是這些出錯的問題"},{"start":3783.75,"end":3785.27,"text":"這個模型吐出來的"},{"start":3785.27,"end":3786.63,"text":"卻認為它是真的"},{"start":3786.63,"end":3787.63,"text":"我們還問了他"},{"start":3787.63,"end":3789.3900000000003,"text":"現在的副主委是誰"},{"start":3789.3900000000003,"end":3790.9500000000003,"text":"他說林敏聰女士"},{"start":3790.9500000000003,"end":3791.79,"text":"想必副主委"},{"start":3791.79,"end":3793.55,"text":"您不是林敏聰女士"},{"start":3793.55,"end":3794.15,"text":"對吧"},{"start":3794.15,"end":3795.07,"text":"所以這個資訊"},{"start":3795.07,"end":3797.03,"text":"可是他上面還解得很清楚"},{"start":3797.03,"end":3799.63,"text":"截至2026年初"},{"start":3799.67,"end":3800.79,"text":"事實上"},{"start":3800.79,"end":3802.51,"text":"這樣子的一種做法"},{"start":3802.51,"end":3804.35,"text":"在過去的AI服務裡面"},{"start":3804.35,"end":3806.35,"text":"是要清楚標示的"},{"start":3806.35,"end":3807.9500000000003,"text":"那我們可以看得到"},{"start":3807.9500000000003,"end":3808.87,"text":"Chap 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token的預購"},{"start":4182.179999999999,"end":4185.099999999999,"text":"我們阿拉斯加的這個LNG"},{"start":4185.099999999999,"end":4187.179999999999,"text":"我們國家都可以來預購"},{"start":4187.179999999999,"end":4187.82,"text":"AI token"},{"start":4187.82,"end":4189.62,"text":"我們能不能及早做"},{"start":4189.62,"end":4191.62,"text":"國家級的預購"},{"start":4191.62,"end":4193.299999999999,"text":"因為你要建設"},{"start":4193.299999999999,"end":4195.139999999999,"text":"就建成像我們剛剛看到的"},{"start":4195.139999999999,"end":4199.58,"text":"2028年"},{"start":4199.58,"end":4200.74,"text":"2029年"},{"start":4200.74,"end":4203.259999999999,"text":"我們要23GW"},{"start":4203.259999999999,"end":4205.099999999999,"text":"別人的1%"},{"start":4205.099999999999,"end":4207.299999999999,"text":"這個有沒有機會來研議一下"},{"start":4207.299999999999,"end":4208.66,"text":"好這我們回去研討看看"},{"start":4208.66,"end":4210.58,"text":"那時間能不能給我一下"},{"start":4210.58,"end":4211.259999999999,"text":"這個可能要快"},{"start":4211.259999999999,"end":4212.179999999999,"text":"這個一個月"},{"start":4212.179999999999,"end":4213.259999999999,"text":"初步的"},{"start":4213.259999999999,"end":4214.74,"text":"初步的一個月"},{"start":4214.74,"end":4216.58,"text":"那有機會也可能要邀請"},{"start":4216.62,"end":4217.86,"text":"國歌會這邊來"},{"start":4217.86,"end":4219.5,"text":"我們這邊一起來探討一下"},{"start":4219.5,"end":4221.58,"text":"因為這個真的是要提前布局"},{"start":4221.58,"end":4223.22,"text":"過了這個村沒有那個店"},{"start":4223.22,"end":4223.98,"text":"你都蓋好了"},{"start":4223.98,"end":4225.14,"text":"你跟人家說要分"},{"start":4225.14,"end":4226.54,"text":"人家也不分你了"},{"start":4226.54,"end":4228.34,"text":"現在在商業合作"},{"start":4228.34,"end":4229.86,"text":"我們國家有話語權"},{"start":4229.86,"end":4231.38,"text":"這也是我們的AI主權"},{"start":4231.38,"end":4233.38,"text":"也是我們的主權AI"},{"start":4233.38,"end":4235.62,"text":"最後的最後請教一下"},{"start":4235.62,"end":4236.3,"text":"短期內"},{"start":4236.3,"end":4237.54,"text":"我們剛剛講的都是長期"},{"start":4237.54,"end":4239.0599999999995,"text":"短期內沒有超前部署"},{"start":4239.0599999999995,"end":4242.1,"text":"我們可不可以做到精準打擊"},{"start":4242.1,"end":4243.86,"text":"因為我們的AI"},{"start":4243.86,"end":4245.3,"text":"主權AI或AI主權"},{"start":4245.34,"end":4248.14,"text":"其實就是要有文化的主體性"},{"start":4248.14,"end":4250.3,"text":"這一點我相信也是我們主席安排"},{"start":4250.3,"end":4252.3,"text":"這次的專題報告非常重要"},{"start":4252.3,"end":4253.58,"text":"要文化的主體性"},{"start":4253.58,"end":4254.900000000001,"text":"我們的AI"},{"start":4254.900000000001,"end":4256.54,"text":"要講我們的語言"},{"start":4256.54,"end":4258.18,"text":"我們講影片就影片"},{"start":4258.18,"end":4259.34,"text":"不是視頻"},{"start":4259.34,"end":4260.820000000001,"text":"講聲音就是聲音"},{"start":4260.820000000001,"end":4262.58,"text":"不是音頻"},{"start":4262.58,"end":4263.860000000001,"text":"品質就品質"},{"start":4263.860000000001,"end":4265.14,"text":"不是質量"},{"start":4265.14,"end":4267.22,"text":"但是我們現在發現"},{"start":4267.22,"end":4269.820000000001,"text":"沒有這樣的語料庫"},{"start":4269.820000000001,"end":4271.38,"text":"我們的這個語料庫"},{"start":4271.38,"end":4273.58,"text":"有很多東西沒有更新"},{"start":4273.58,"end":4274.34,"text":"像我們提到"},{"start":4274.38,"end":4276.38,"text":"上次講AI token"},{"start":4276.38,"end":4277.02,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4277.02,"end":4278.3,"text":"我們去查了"},{"start":4278.3,"end":4279.860000000001,"text":"其實相關的這個語料庫"},{"start":4279.860000000001,"end":4281.3,"text":"其實是不夠的"},{"start":4281.3,"end":4283.34,"text":"像一個電影inception"},{"start":4283.34,"end":4285.06,"text":"我們台灣翻譯是什麼"},{"start":4285.06,"end":4286.58,"text":"全面啟動"},{"start":4286.58,"end":4288.66,"text":"而且會跑出一個潛行空間"},{"start":4288.66,"end":4290.34,"text":"其實這是可以解決的"},{"start":4290.34,"end":4292.34,"text":"如果我們有一個語料庫"},{"start":4292.34,"end":4293.54,"text":"台灣的用語"},{"start":4294.5,"end":4296.5,"text":"GBT可以來學"},{"start":4296.5,"end":4297.5,"text":"Gemini可以來學"},{"start":4297.5,"end":4299.5,"text":"台德自己也可以來學"},{"start":4299.5,"end":4301.5,"text":"就不會發生我們剛剛看到的"},{"start":4301.5,"end":4303.5,"text":"重要的國家級的資料"},{"start":4303.5,"end":4304.3,"text":"是錯誤的"},{"start":4304.3,"end":4306.3,"text":"重要的國家的文化是錯誤的"},{"start":4306.3,"end":4308.3,"text":"這個我再考一下"},{"start":4308.3,"end":4309.3,"text":"這個主委"},{"start":4309.3,"end":4311.3,"text":"這一題已經卸題過了"},{"start":4311.3,"end":4314.3,"text":"像這個是我們很重要的一個文化"},{"start":4314.3,"end":4316.3,"text":"這個是什麼意思"},{"start":4316.3,"end":4318.3,"text":"這是前總統蔡英文"},{"start":4318.3,"end":4320.3,"text":"有20萬讚"},{"start":4320.3,"end":4322.3,"text":"在那個臉書"},{"start":4322.3,"end":4324.3,"text":"在槌上面全球轟動的一個"},{"start":4324.3,"end":4326.3,"text":"算是次文化"},{"start":4329.74,"end":4331.74,"text":"有沒有人要搭救一下我們副主委的"},{"start":4331.74,"end":4335.74,"text":"蘇巴布次長"},{"start":4335.74,"end":4337.74,"text":"這個侯次長真的很有我們"},{"start":4337.74,"end":4339.74,"text":"很了解我們這個庶民文化"},{"start":4339.74,"end":4341.74,"text":"網路文化"},{"start":4341.74,"end":4343.74,"text":"真羨慕這個詞打出來"},{"start":4343.74,"end":4345.74,"text":"全球的網路阿宅"},{"start":4345.74,"end":4347.74,"text":"不明絕力"},{"start":4347.74,"end":4349.74,"text":"事實上就是真羨慕的意思"},{"start":4349.74,"end":4351.74,"text":"那真羨慕"},{"start":4351.74,"end":4353.74,"text":"我們也考過了"},{"start":4353.74,"end":4355.74,"text":"全世界所有主流AI都沒通過"},{"start":4355.74,"end":4357.74,"text":"測驗沒有任何一個AI知道"},{"start":4357.74,"end":4359.74,"text":"這個是真羨慕的意思"},{"start":4359.74,"end":4361.74,"text":"只要我們有一個語料庫"},{"start":4361.74,"end":4363.74,"text":"這不用很貴阿"},{"start":4363.74,"end":4365.74,"text":"把它建進去我們JM312B"},{"start":4365.74,"end":4367.74,"text":"他也可以回答出來"},{"start":4367.74,"end":4369.74,"text":"這個就是我們真正的AI主權"},{"start":4369.74,"end":4371.74,"text":"真正的主權AI"},{"start":4371.74,"end":4373.74,"text":"這個副主委阿"},{"start":4373.74,"end":4375.74,"text":"有沒有機會能夠"},{"start":4375.74,"end":4377.74,"text":"在一定的期間之內"},{"start":4377.74,"end":4379.74,"text":"我剛剛很多報告"},{"start":4379.74,"end":4381.74,"text":"這個您自己講一個時間好不好"},{"start":4381.74,"end":4383.74,"text":"我真的不想讓大家"},{"start":4383.74,"end":4385.74,"text":"這個真的很重要"},{"start":4385.74,"end":4387.74,"text":"我們就一直在呼籲"},{"start":4387.74,"end":4389.74,"text":"我們的政府要回過頭來"},{"start":4389.74,"end":4391.74,"text":"要定義我們自己的文化"},{"start":4391.74,"end":4393.74,"text":"包含我們的庶民文化"},{"start":4393.74,"end":4395.74,"text":"網路文化電影的翻譯"},{"start":4395.74,"end":4397.74,"text":"藝人的名稱是真泥佛"},{"start":4397.74,"end":4399.74,"text":"不是真泥花是蜘蛛人"},{"start":4399.74,"end":4401.74,"text":"不是蜘蛛俠"},{"start":4401.74,"end":4403.74,"text":"這個副主委我們能不能"},{"start":4403.74,"end":4405.74,"text":"要跨部會我想你們是最適合跨部會的"},{"start":4405.74,"end":4407.74,"text":"是是這個我們"},{"start":4407.74,"end":4409.74,"text":"因為語料庫這一塊現在"},{"start":4409.74,"end":4411.74,"text":"書發部在幫忙在處理"},{"start":4411.74,"end":4413.74,"text":"所以我們可以跟書發部一起來做這件事情"},{"start":4413.74,"end":4415.74,"text":"能不能有一個時間線"},{"start":4415.74,"end":4417.74,"text":"就是"},{"start":4417.74,"end":4419.74,"text":"一個月兩個月或三個月"},{"start":4419.74,"end":4421.74,"text":"有個初步研議的程度我不喜歡這樣"},{"start":4421.74,"end":4423.74,"text":"但是因為這件事情很急迫"},{"start":4423.74,"end":4425.74,"text":"我想侯次長也很瞭解"},{"start":4425.74,"end":4427.74,"text":"其實只要說不定"},{"start":4427.74,"end":4429.74,"text":"訪談一下侯次長把它建立起來"},{"start":4429.74,"end":4431.74,"text":"這個語料庫說不定就很完整"},{"start":4431.74,"end":4433.74,"text":"可不可以有一個時間"},{"start":4434.29,"end":4436.29,"text":"三個月"},{"start":4437.87,"end":4439.87,"text":"應該三個月"},{"start":4439.87,"end":4441.87,"text":"全球AI主流AI"},{"start":4441.87,"end":4443.87,"text":"Cloud GPT Gemini"},{"start":4443.87,"end":4445.87,"text":"因應期盼"},{"start":4445.87,"end":4447.87,"text":"因為他們真的很想要"},{"start":4447.87,"end":4449.87,"text":"更加貼近我們民主的"},{"start":4449.87,"end":4451.87,"text":"繁體中文的華文的文化"},{"start":4451.87,"end":4453.87,"text":"好不好這一點我們一起來努力"},{"start":4453.87,"end":4455.87,"text":"可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4455.87,"end":4457.87,"text":"謝謝副主委"},{"start":4457.31,"end":4459.31,"text":"好謝謝葛瑞君委員的質詢"},{"start":4459.31,"end":4461.31,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":4461.31,"end":4465.31,"text":"接下來有請林怡菁委員進行詢答"},{"start":4473.12,"end":4475.12,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4475.12,"end":4477.12,"text":"有請國科會陳副主委"},{"start":4477.12,"end":4479.12,"text":"訴發部侯次長"},{"start":4479.12,"end":4481.12,"text":"中研院彭副院長"},{"start":4481.12,"end":4483.12,"text":"請三個機關代表上質詢台"},{"start":4486.44,"end":4488.44,"text":"首先我想請教國科會跟訴發部"},{"start":4488.44,"end":4492.44,"text":"當初我們制定AI基本法的時候"},{"start":4492.44,"end":4496.44,"text":"曾屢屢提及我們訴發部要去盤點各部會"},{"start":4496.44,"end":4500.44,"text":"然後去配合來訂定相關的執法"},{"start":4500.44,"end":4504.44,"text":"那因為有些法律甚至是要配合AI基本法"},{"start":4504.44,"end":4506.44,"text":"來做出相對應的修正"},{"start":4506.44,"end":4510.44,"text":"那這個可以參照AI基本法的第17條到第19條"},{"start":4510.44,"end":4512.44,"text":"那AI基本法的第16條"},{"start":4512.44,"end":4514.44,"text":"還有明定說我們訴發部"},{"start":4514.44,"end":4518.44,"text":"要訂定AI的風險分類框架"},{"start":4519.29,"end":4523.29,"text":"那想請教侯次長跟陳副主委"},{"start":4523.29,"end":4527.29,"text":"我們執法修法的盤點進度如何"},{"start":4527.29,"end":4531.29,"text":"那這個風險分類框架什麼時候公告"},{"start":4531.29,"end":4533.29,"text":"那相對應的修法"},{"start":4533.29,"end":4535.29,"text":"有沒有跟其他的部會再進行討論"},{"start":4538.48,"end":4540.48,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4540.48,"end":4546.48,"text":"目前風險分類框架還有法規的盤點"},{"start":4546.48,"end":4548.48,"text":"現在都是在進行當中"},{"start":4548.48,"end":4552.48,"text":"那風險分類框架應該已經送到行政院"},{"start":4552.48,"end":4554.48,"text":"現在正在等待核定當中"},{"start":4554.48,"end":4556.48,"text":"那其他的盤點我們應該是"},{"start":4556.48,"end":4558.48,"text":"相關的執法"},{"start":4558.48,"end":4560.48,"text":"一直在進行當中"},{"start":4560.48,"end":4564.48,"text":"那可不可以把預計要修法的這些法規清單"},{"start":4564.48,"end":4566.48,"text":"不管是法律或者是法規命令"},{"start":4566.48,"end":4570.48,"text":"是不是可以一個禮拜給本席分報告"},{"start":4571.37,"end":4573.37,"text":"AI基本法都通過三讀"},{"start":4573.37,"end":4575.37,"text":"通過那麼久了"},{"start":4575.37,"end":4577.37,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4577.37,"end":4581.37,"text":"我們目前是把這個AI風險分類框架"},{"start":4581.37,"end":4583.37,"text":"送到行政院"},{"start":4583.37,"end":4585.37,"text":"那可能也跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4585.37,"end":4591.37,"text":"目前AI風險框架跟各部會協作的一個機制"},{"start":4591.37,"end":4593.37,"text":"那風險分類框架裡面"},{"start":4593.37,"end":4597.37,"text":"我們風險分為三大類"},{"start":4597.37,"end":4599.37,"text":"那三大類底下有18個子類"},{"start":4599.37,"end":4603.37,"text":"那這18個子類我們是參考MIT的這個風險的"},{"start":4603.37,"end":4607.37,"text":"它有一個叫Risk Repository的一個架構"},{"start":4607.37,"end":4614.37,"text":"那這個架構其實是收集了全世界各國不同的風險分類去做統整"},{"start":4614.37,"end":4619.37,"text":"那在這一個三大類18個子類之下呢"},{"start":4619.37,"end":4624.37,"text":"我們把風險整個分類框架還有分為四個步驟"},{"start":4624.37,"end":4627.37,"text":"那第一個步驟是盤點應用場景"},{"start":4627.37,"end":4633.37,"text":"也就是我們請各機關去盤點他們所屬的這個所管的業務範圍內"},{"start":4633.37,"end":4635.37,"text":"有哪些AI應用的場景"},{"start":4635.37,"end":4639.37,"text":"那第二個步驟就是在這個應用場景底下"},{"start":4639.37,"end":4642.37,"text":"依據我們所提供的這個分類"},{"start":4642.37,"end":4645.37,"text":"有哪些風險會產生"},{"start":4645.37,"end":4648.37,"text":"那第三個步驟就是評估風險"},{"start":4648.37,"end":4653.37,"text":"就是究竟他們識別出來的這些風險的可能性"},{"start":4653.37,"end":4656.37,"text":"和發生之後嚴重危害的程度"},{"start":4656.37,"end":4659.37,"text":"是不是有到所謂高風險的這個等級"},{"start":4659.37,"end":4663.37,"text":"那最後就是請各個部會他們去盤點說"},{"start":4663.37,"end":4668.37,"text":"在這一個風險識別的和評估的結果底下"},{"start":4668.37,"end":4672.37,"text":"現有的法律和政策工具是不是足夠因應"},{"start":4672.37,"end":4675.37,"text":"那如果不夠因應的話呢"},{"start":4675.37,"end":4678.37,"text":"是不是要去進行修法"},{"start":4678.37,"end":4681.37,"text":"或是要有新的政策工具來提供"},{"start":4681.37,"end":4684.37,"text":"那這整個作施呢"},{"start":4684.37,"end":4687.37,"text":"整個步驟我們現在在國科會的支持底下"},{"start":4687.37,"end":4691.37,"text":"已經跟各部會開始進行非常積極的協作"},{"start":4691.37,"end":4693.37,"text":"那我也請委員能夠"},{"start":4693.37,"end":4695.37,"text":"我相信委員也能夠理解"},{"start":4695.37,"end":4698.37,"text":"在這各個不同的部會裡面呢"},{"start":4698.37,"end":4702.37,"text":"其實AI應用的程度是相當不一樣的"},{"start":4702.37,"end":4707.37,"text":"那他們對AI的這個理解還有風險的這個識別"},{"start":4707.37,"end":4708.37,"text":"也都不太一樣"},{"start":4708.37,"end":4713.37,"text":"那目前我們跟勞動部還有這個衛福部"},{"start":4713.37,"end":4718.37,"text":"幾個比較金管會這些都已經開始進行協作"},{"start":4718.37,"end":4720.37,"text":"那關於修法的部分"},{"start":4720.37,"end":4721.37,"text":"不好意思請"},{"start":4721.37,"end":4722.37,"text":"對對對"},{"start":4722.37,"end":4723.37,"text":"現在要討論這種修法"},{"start":4723.37,"end":4725.37,"text":"相關的執法"},{"start":4725.37,"end":4728.37,"text":"我沒有說什麼時候執法要出來"},{"start":4728.37,"end":4732.37,"text":"至少你們規劃什麼時候執法的草案出來"},{"start":4732.37,"end":4734.37,"text":"那相關的盤點的進度"},{"start":4734.37,"end":4735.37,"text":"我再詢問這個"},{"start":4735.37,"end":4741.37,"text":"好那國科會這邊其實已經有請各部會去做初步的盤點"},{"start":4741.37,"end":4744.37,"text":"那但是也請委員能夠理解"},{"start":4744.37,"end":4747.37,"text":"就是因為AI的這個運用還有技術"},{"start":4747.37,"end":4749.37,"text":"一直在不斷的變動當中"},{"start":4749.37,"end":4750.37,"text":"所以還在盤點當中"},{"start":4750.37,"end":4754.37,"text":"就是我們可能要持續性的跟您階段性的報告"},{"start":4754.37,"end":4757.37,"text":"就是因為他可不可以先給我"},{"start":4757.37,"end":4759.37,"text":"就是目前盤點到如何"},{"start":4759.37,"end":4761.37,"text":"給我一份書面報告好不好"},{"start":4761.37,"end":4763.37,"text":"因為時間的關係"},{"start":4764.39,"end":4766.39,"text":"好那接下來來解釋"},{"start":4766.39,"end":4768.39,"text":"就是AI這個各層面的議題"},{"start":4768.39,"end":4772.39,"text":"因為他很清楚他跨足了科研端應用端"},{"start":4772.39,"end":4776.39,"text":"那他學科其實也不僅局限在科技領域"},{"start":4776.39,"end":4778.39,"text":"他甚至還有法學的問題"},{"start":4778.39,"end":4781.39,"text":"侯次長很清楚還有社會學的問題"},{"start":4781.39,"end":4786.39,"text":"所以本席認為說中研院跟國科會在學研的方面"},{"start":4786.39,"end":4788.39,"text":"我們應該清楚電機AI"},{"start":4788.39,"end":4791.39,"text":"就是跨領域研究的基礎理論"},{"start":4791.39,"end":4794.39,"text":"來引領這個研究者投入更深的研究"},{"start":4794.39,"end":4797.39,"text":"那想要請教中研院就是說"},{"start":4797.39,"end":4799.39,"text":"還有那個國科會"},{"start":4799.39,"end":4802.39,"text":"我們未來在AI這個基礎的研究上"},{"start":4802.39,"end":4805.39,"text":"我們會呈現什麼樣的跨領域的研究"},{"start":4805.39,"end":4807.39,"text":"會建立什麼樣的學門"},{"start":4807.39,"end":4809.39,"text":"好謝謝這個林委員"},{"start":4809.39,"end":4812.39,"text":"這一點我想我們就是我們要再做訓練"},{"start":4812.39,"end":4814.39,"text":"剛才在報告裡面"},{"start":4814.39,"end":4815.39,"text":"我們要跨領域"},{"start":4815.39,"end":4818.39,"text":"比如說我們的人文的學者過去不懂AI"},{"start":4818.39,"end":4820.39,"text":"那現在我們就要訓練他"},{"start":4820.39,"end":4823.39,"text":"我們一直也在開很多的這個課"},{"start":4823.39,"end":4826.39,"text":"請他們助理們要去上"},{"start":4826.39,"end":4829.39,"text":"那另外我們也請我們院內資訊人員"},{"start":4829.39,"end":4833.39,"text":"協助他們在做這些AI方面的訓練"},{"start":4833.39,"end":4835.39,"text":"從兩方面來做"},{"start":4835.39,"end":4838.39,"text":"好就是有一直在努力就對了"},{"start":4838.39,"end":4840.39,"text":"那我想我們在這邊看見"},{"start":4840.39,"end":4844.39,"text":"這個AI的浪潮這個席捲全球這個時刻"},{"start":4844.39,"end":4847.39,"text":"我們各學科的領域都有人投入深入研究"},{"start":4847.39,"end":4850.39,"text":"像清大這個林勤副教授"},{"start":4850.39,"end":4852.39,"text":"他就在中研院的這個法學期刊"},{"start":4852.39,"end":4855.39,"text":"有撰文分析OMO的AI基本法"},{"start":4855.39,"end":4858.39,"text":"那接續我前面提到的法制的問題"},{"start":4858.39,"end":4861.39,"text":"本席認為國科會跟中研院"},{"start":4861.39,"end":4864.39,"text":"我們應該真的很努力來進行實證的研究"},{"start":4864.39,"end":4867.39,"text":"具體在這個AI的這個議題"},{"start":4867.39,"end":4870.39,"text":"提供修法跟立法的建議"},{"start":4870.39,"end":4874.39,"text":"讓學研跟修法可以持續交流對話"},{"start":4874.39,"end":4878.39,"text":"那進而可以被司法來作為裁判的依據"},{"start":4878.39,"end":4881.39,"text":"那我們回到這一次的主題之一"},{"start":4881.39,"end":4884.39,"text":"就是學門的建構與應用"},{"start":4884.39,"end":4888.39,"text":"本席認為在這邊我們相關學門的建構"},{"start":4888.39,"end":4890.39,"text":"我們最後指向的其實是應用"},{"start":4890.39,"end":4893.39,"text":"那重點就在實際應用"},{"start":4893.39,"end":4895.39,"text":"所以本席作為一個立法者"},{"start":4895.39,"end":4900.39,"text":"我們的幕僚常常會在研讀各種法學的這個研究成果"},{"start":4900.39,"end":4902.39,"text":"也參考這個來作為修法的建議"},{"start":4902.39,"end":4903.39,"text":"來提出修法"},{"start":4903.39,"end":4906.39,"text":"所以本席要在這裡具體的建議"},{"start":4906.39,"end":4908.39,"text":"這個AI的法律研究"},{"start":4908.39,"end":4912.39,"text":"應該要突破單純的分析比較法的視野"},{"start":4912.39,"end":4913.39,"text":"就跟我前面所說的"},{"start":4913.39,"end":4916.39,"text":"要跟這個立法的實務有更多的對話"},{"start":4916.39,"end":4919.39,"text":"那簡單來說像中研院跟國科會"},{"start":4919.39,"end":4920.39,"text":"我們做出的研究"},{"start":4920.39,"end":4923.39,"text":"就應該要實質能建議"},{"start":4923.39,"end":4927.39,"text":"給AI跟數位的主管機關跟立法院"},{"start":4927.39,"end":4929.39,"text":"所以在這裡想要了解"},{"start":4929.39,"end":4932.39,"text":"我們中研院國科會跟速發部"},{"start":4932.39,"end":4934.39,"text":"對於我剛提到這個看法"},{"start":4934.39,"end":4936.39,"text":"你們有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":4936.39,"end":4938.39,"text":"好謝謝林委員的建議"},{"start":4938.39,"end":4941.39,"text":"我們其實在兩年前就成立了"},{"start":4941.39,"end":4943.39,"text":"這個法律方面的風險小組"},{"start":4943.39,"end":4946.39,"text":"由我們在座的法律所的陳所長"},{"start":4946.39,"end":4948.39,"text":"林所長來負責"},{"start":4948.39,"end":4951.39,"text":"那我們就都會固定去盤點"},{"start":4951.39,"end":4954.39,"text":"哪些的會碰到的法律問題"},{"start":4954.39,"end":4956.39,"text":"我希望未來可能有機會"},{"start":4956.39,"end":4959.39,"text":"會跟國科會來做進一步的交流"},{"start":4959.39,"end":4960.39,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4962.03,"end":4963.03,"text":"國科會"},{"start":4963.03,"end":4964.03,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4964.03,"end":4967.03,"text":"我們其實不只是法律"},{"start":4967.03,"end":4970.03,"text":"國科會這邊所支持的一些研究的成果"},{"start":4970.03,"end":4974.03,"text":"只要跟各部會有關係的有幫助的"},{"start":4974.03,"end":4978.03,"text":"我們都會轉請各部會做參考"},{"start":4978.03,"end":4979.03,"text":"那在法律這一塊"},{"start":4979.03,"end":4982.03,"text":"其實我們跟中研院也有很多密切的合作"},{"start":4982.03,"end":4985.03,"text":"那其實有一些對法規的"},{"start":4985.03,"end":4987.03,"text":"就像說人工智慧基本法這一塊"},{"start":4987.03,"end":4990.03,"text":"我們其實已經有很多的研究討論"},{"start":4990.03,"end":4993.03,"text":"那其實都有提供給處發部做參考"},{"start":4993.03,"end":4994.03,"text":"好"},{"start":4994.03,"end":4997.03,"text":"那最後我再談一個實際應用的問題"},{"start":4997.03,"end":4999.03,"text":"就是我們今天的主題之一"},{"start":4999.03,"end":5001.03,"text":"就是數位透明度"},{"start":5001.03,"end":5004.03,"text":"那這個對應到我國AI基本法的"},{"start":5004.03,"end":5005.03,"text":"這個宣示的原則之一"},{"start":5005.03,"end":5007.03,"text":"就是透明與可解釋性"},{"start":5007.03,"end":5010.03,"text":"簡單來說就是當AI做出一個決策"},{"start":5010.03,"end":5012.03,"text":"那我們必須要能交代他的這個"},{"start":5012.03,"end":5014.03,"text":"演算過程跟理由"},{"start":5014.03,"end":5017.03,"text":"那如果任何在我國落地的AI應用"},{"start":5017.03,"end":5019.03,"text":"沒辦法滿足這樣的需求"},{"start":5019.03,"end":5022.03,"text":"那這樣如果這樣產生爭議的話"},{"start":5022.03,"end":5025.03,"text":"那怎麼可能會導致要去打官司"},{"start":5025.03,"end":5027.03,"text":"這會勢必會引起很大的問題"},{"start":5027.03,"end":5029.03,"text":"所以談到透明"},{"start":5029.03,"end":5031.03,"text":"我覺得我們不只需要這個演算法"},{"start":5031.03,"end":5033.03,"text":"跟決策過程的透明"},{"start":5033.03,"end":5036.03,"text":"我覺得也需要資料的透明"},{"start":5036.03,"end":5039.03,"text":"甚至說是事後的清楚標示"},{"start":5039.03,"end":5043.03,"text":"那前陣子本來有向國安局提出一些書面質詢"},{"start":5043.03,"end":5046.03,"text":"那詢問國安局是否具備"},{"start":5046.03,"end":5049.03,"text":"以AI對抗AI的能力"},{"start":5049.03,"end":5051.03,"text":"那針對這個"},{"start":5051.03,"end":5054.03,"text":"這個現在快速傳播這些"},{"start":5054.03,"end":5056.03,"text":"惡意的這個所謂的深圍內容"},{"start":5056.03,"end":5058.03,"text":"要如何的緊急處分"},{"start":5058.03,"end":5061.03,"text":"那國安局是回覆北習說"},{"start":5061.03,"end":5065.03,"text":"國安局他會研究導入AI代理人的技術"},{"start":5065.03,"end":5067.03,"text":"來強化偵測"},{"start":5067.03,"end":5071.03,"text":"辨識AI生成內容及帳號群控的行為"},{"start":5071.03,"end":5073.03,"text":"那另外他也或他說"},{"start":5073.03,"end":5075.03,"text":"國安局說"},{"start":5075.03,"end":5078.03,"text":"他也或許可以借鑒歐盟的法治"},{"start":5078.03,"end":5080.03,"text":"那強化這個相關的法源"},{"start":5080.03,"end":5082.03,"text":"來促使這個社群平台業者"},{"start":5082.03,"end":5084.03,"text":"能善盡企業的責任"},{"start":5084.03,"end":5086.03,"text":"那依法來標註錯假訊息"},{"start":5086.03,"end":5090.03,"text":"那審查這個不實的這個下架不實的影音"},{"start":5090.03,"end":5093.03,"text":"那本席看來這個重點在於"},{"start":5093.03,"end":5095.03,"text":"國家安全的守護"},{"start":5095.03,"end":5098.03,"text":"搭配我國這個AI基本法的透明"},{"start":5098.03,"end":5100.03,"text":"和解釋性的這個原則"},{"start":5100.03,"end":5101.03,"text":"我就應該要有辦法"},{"start":5101.03,"end":5104.03,"text":"來針對這個令人頭痛的這個AI生成"},{"start":5104.03,"end":5106.03,"text":"錯假訊息來進行處理"},{"start":5106.03,"end":5109.03,"text":"比如說這個強制標註"},{"start":5109.63,"end":5113.63,"text":"就是要求他生成這個解釋他的生成過程"},{"start":5113.63,"end":5115.63,"text":"那後端喔"},{"start":5115.63,"end":5117.63,"text":"就當然來審查下架"},{"start":5117.63,"end":5118.63,"text":"就是審查下架"},{"start":5118.63,"end":5120.63,"text":"那配合AI基本法第五條"},{"start":5120.63,"end":5122.63,"text":"政府依避免人工智慧"},{"start":5122.63,"end":5126.63,"text":"支應用有破壞國家安全等等的情勢喔"},{"start":5126.63,"end":5128.63,"text":"那所以請教侯次長就是說"},{"start":5128.63,"end":5132.63,"text":"台灣面對這種日益嚴峻的這種資訊戰"},{"start":5132.63,"end":5136.63,"text":"那速發部怎麼樣跟國安單位來配合喔"},{"start":5136.63,"end":5138.63,"text":"那來研擬這個相關的政策"},{"start":5138.63,"end":5140.63,"text":"來對抗這個不利"},{"start":5140.63,"end":5142.63,"text":"與我們台灣的這個國家"},{"start":5142.63,"end":5144.63,"text":"他們的錯假訊息的散佈"},{"start":5144.63,"end":5146.63,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5146.63,"end":5149.63,"text":"我們就這個AI生成內容"},{"start":5149.63,"end":5152.63,"text":"錯假訊息還有標示這個議題"},{"start":5152.63,"end":5154.63,"text":"目前由部長呢"},{"start":5154.63,"end":5156.63,"text":"他親自處理"},{"start":5156.63,"end":5161.63,"text":"那並和各個這個主要的這個大型平台"},{"start":5161.63,"end":5165.63,"text":"還有生成式AI的主要的提供服務商"},{"start":5165.63,"end":5167.63,"text":"去做討論"},{"start":5167.63,"end":5170.63,"text":"那也已經召開會議"},{"start":5170.63,"end":5173.63,"text":"那我們現在得到的這個反饋"},{"start":5173.63,"end":5175.63,"text":"就我所知各個平台"},{"start":5175.63,"end":5179.63,"text":"他們其實都願意往這個主動標示的這個方向"},{"start":5179.63,"end":5181.63,"text":"去做推進"},{"start":5181.63,"end":5182.63,"text":"是好"},{"start":5182.63,"end":5185.63,"text":"因為國家安全確實是非常重要"},{"start":5185.63,"end":5189.63,"text":"所以這個部分再請這個各單位多加努力"},{"start":5189.63,"end":5190.63,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5191.56,"end":5193.56,"text":"謝謝林一錦委員的質詢"},{"start":5193.56,"end":5195.56,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":5196.05,"end":5199.05,"text":"接下來有請郭玉琴委員詢答"},{"start":5204.67,"end":5206.67,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":5206.67,"end":5210.67,"text":"然後有請這個國法會陳副主委"},{"start":5210.67,"end":5213.67,"text":"然後還有眾議院的彭副院長"},{"start":5213.67,"end":5215.67,"text":"還有出發部的侯次長"},{"start":5215.69,"end":5216.69,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5216.69,"end":5218.69,"text":"請機關代表到備訓台"},{"start":5218.69,"end":5219.69,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5220.42,"end":5222.42,"text":"好三位早安"},{"start":5222.42,"end":5224.42,"text":"我想這個問題應該是跨部會"},{"start":5224.42,"end":5226.42,"text":"所以把你們三個先叫上來"},{"start":5226.42,"end":5227.42,"text":"好不好意思"},{"start":5227.42,"end":5229.42,"text":"那我想今天要談是個三個主題"},{"start":5229.42,"end":5231.42,"text":"核心重點就在問一件事情"},{"start":5231.42,"end":5236.42,"text":"就是台灣的AI到底有沒有一套真正的國家的戰略"},{"start":5236.42,"end":5238.42,"text":"那我為什麼要這麼說呢"},{"start":5238.42,"end":5241.42,"text":"我想第一部分AI其實不是三塊的拼圖"},{"start":5241.42,"end":5245.42,"text":"那剛剛也提到它應該是一個所謂的系統"},{"start":5245.42,"end":5248.42,"text":"那目前其實台灣的AI發展大致分為三塊"},{"start":5248.42,"end":5250.42,"text":"那我來敘述一下"},{"start":5250.42,"end":5252.42,"text":"不曉得對不對三位可以指教"},{"start":5252.42,"end":5256.42,"text":"那我想國科會是做科研、模型跟學門"},{"start":5256.42,"end":5260.42,"text":"然後再來中研院我們做的是學術的標準還有倫理的部分"},{"start":5260.42,"end":5263.42,"text":"那術發部的部分我們是做應用資料跟治理"},{"start":5263.42,"end":5265.42,"text":"我想這個應該沒有錯"},{"start":5265.42,"end":5266.42,"text":"這個三個部分"},{"start":5266.42,"end":5269.42,"text":"那看起來這個分工其實是很清楚啦"},{"start":5269.42,"end":5273.42,"text":"但是其實我想要問的是我們擔心就是各做各的"},{"start":5273.42,"end":5274.42,"text":"那沒有整合"},{"start":5274.42,"end":5276.42,"text":"那我舉幾個比較實際的一個例子"},{"start":5276.42,"end":5278.42,"text":"我想學門其實是傳統的分科"},{"start":5278.42,"end":5281.42,"text":"但是AI其實剛剛一級委員也特別提到"},{"start":5281.42,"end":5283.42,"text":"它所謂的是跨領域的"},{"start":5283.42,"end":5285.42,"text":"那另外在倫理的部分"},{"start":5285.42,"end":5288.42,"text":"目前大部分我們都是用指引的方式"},{"start":5288.42,"end":5291.42,"text":"但並沒有真正的所謂的制度"},{"start":5291.42,"end":5294.42,"text":"那AI已經進入到了這個政府跟產業"},{"start":5294.42,"end":5299.42,"text":"但是在透明的機制上可能還沒有辦法完全的補足"},{"start":5299.42,"end":5301.42,"text":"那沒有辦法完全跟上"},{"start":5301.42,"end":5302.42,"text":"那從研究一直到應用"},{"start":5302.42,"end":5304.42,"text":"這中間銜接的責任"},{"start":5304.42,"end":5308.42,"text":"目前為止大家感覺好像還不是那麼的清楚"},{"start":5308.42,"end":5310.42,"text":"那我首先想請教的是"},{"start":5310.42,"end":5314.42,"text":"目前有沒有一個所謂的跨部會的統整的機制"},{"start":5314.42,"end":5315.42,"text":"然後再來就是"},{"start":5315.42,"end":5318.42,"text":"到底是誰來做最後的決策"},{"start":5318.42,"end":5321.42,"text":"這個權責我們大致上是怎麼樣分的"},{"start":5321.42,"end":5322.42,"text":"好請教"},{"start":5324.18,"end":5326.18,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5326.18,"end":5329.18,"text":"目前行政院我們有一個叫做三政委平台"},{"start":5329.18,"end":5330.18,"text":"我們叫做法制"},{"start":5331.18,"end":5333.18,"text":"名詞我就不是記得很清楚"},{"start":5333.18,"end":5336.18,"text":"但是是由國發會主委 國客會主委"},{"start":5336.18,"end":5338.18,"text":"還有法制政委"},{"start":5338.18,"end":5341.18,"text":"三個政委是共同主持的一個會議"},{"start":5341.18,"end":5343.18,"text":"會去做一個跨部會的協商"},{"start":5343.18,"end":5345.18,"text":"所以它只是一個會議而已嗎"},{"start":5347.16,"end":5349.16,"text":"它是一個協商平台"},{"start":5349.16,"end":5352.16,"text":"最後的決策都會是怎麼樣"},{"start":5352.16,"end":5354.16,"text":"最後的決策還是回到行政院"},{"start":5354.16,"end":5358.16,"text":"應該是由行政院這邊來做最後決策"},{"start":5358.16,"end":5360.16,"text":"那我再問一個更關鍵的問題好了"},{"start":5360.16,"end":5363.16,"text":"那我想這個AI已經進入所謂的高風險的一個領域"},{"start":5363.16,"end":5367.16,"text":"比方說像是公共治理 醫療 法律"},{"start":5367.16,"end":5370.16,"text":"還有現在所謂的這個倫理的一個規範"},{"start":5370.16,"end":5373.16,"text":"那我想還停留在所謂的學界的自律"},{"start":5373.16,"end":5377.16,"text":"那問題是將來這個會不會讓它制度化"},{"start":5377.16,"end":5380.16,"text":"我比方說像是分級的一些制度的管理"},{"start":5380.16,"end":5383.16,"text":"或者是強制的風險的一個評估"},{"start":5383.16,"end":5385.16,"text":"那政府在使用AI的時候"},{"start":5385.16,"end":5387.16,"text":"我們需不需要隨時向民眾來做揭露"},{"start":5387.16,"end":5389.16,"text":"那目前有沒有一個比較明確"},{"start":5389.16,"end":5391.16,"text":"或者是一個進程"},{"start":5391.16,"end":5393.16,"text":"還有規劃的這個整個所有的這個"},{"start":5393.16,"end":5396.16,"text":"就是行程大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":5396.16,"end":5398.16,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":5398.16,"end":5402.16,"text":"就這個各個部會主管機關"},{"start":5402.16,"end":5405.16,"text":"去對產業做的這個規範"},{"start":5405.16,"end":5408.16,"text":"我們就是會透過風險分類框架"},{"start":5408.16,"end":5410.16,"text":"去協助各部會做盤點"},{"start":5410.16,"end":5412.16,"text":"那在這個政府"},{"start":5413.35,"end":5415.35,"text":"機關 但沒有強制對不對"},{"start":5415.35,"end":5417.35,"text":"這個部分是目前沒有強制"},{"start":5418.16,"end":5420.16,"text":"應該說我們的"},{"start":5420.16,"end":5421.16,"text":"只是一個指引"},{"start":5421.16,"end":5422.16,"text":"對 是指引"},{"start":5422.16,"end":5425.16,"text":"但是各個部會都積極在配合"},{"start":5425.16,"end":5428.16,"text":"我們都在非常這個"},{"start":5428.16,"end":5431.16,"text":"頻繁的在溝通跟協作的過程中"},{"start":5431.16,"end":5434.16,"text":"那有一個就是"},{"start":5434.16,"end":5439.16,"text":"基本法裡面設定的時間點是這個兩年嘛"},{"start":5439.16,"end":5441.16,"text":"那但是有一些比較重要的"},{"start":5441.16,"end":5444.16,"text":"就是說風險比較明確的這個"},{"start":5444.16,"end":5447.16,"text":"我想會在比較快的時間"},{"start":5447.16,"end":5451.16,"text":"時間底下會有一個比較早的這個決定"},{"start":5451.16,"end":5454.16,"text":"就是有一些部會"},{"start":5454.16,"end":5456.16,"text":"他們可能會比較早完成"},{"start":5456.16,"end":5458.16,"text":"這個整個法規的修訂"},{"start":5458.16,"end":5461.16,"text":"那另外在政府機關的部分"},{"start":5461.16,"end":5464.16,"text":"處發部的這個數位政府司"},{"start":5464.16,"end":5466.16,"text":"協助政府機關"},{"start":5466.16,"end":5468.16,"text":"去做這個內控的部分"},{"start":5468.16,"end":5470.16,"text":"那個這個我們也在積極進行當中"},{"start":5470.16,"end":5472.16,"text":"那應該是法規底下"},{"start":5472.16,"end":5473.16,"text":"法規底下也是要"},{"start":5473.16,"end":5474.16,"text":"基本法也是要求"},{"start":5474.16,"end":5477.16,"text":"附帶決議是要求六個月內"},{"start":5477.16,"end":5479.16,"text":"六個月內 對"},{"start":5479.16,"end":5481.16,"text":"好 那再來接下來第二個部分"},{"start":5481.16,"end":5483.16,"text":"我想要問的是這個主權AI的核心"},{"start":5483.16,"end":5485.16,"text":"就是剛剛其實有幾位委員"},{"start":5485.16,"end":5487.16,"text":"有特別提到就是所謂的"},{"start":5487.16,"end":5491.16,"text":"語料跟這個資料的主權主導權這個部分"},{"start":5491.16,"end":5492.16,"text":"那我想呢"},{"start":5492.16,"end":5493.16,"text":"談到這個台的"},{"start":5493.16,"end":5496.16,"text":"我從2024年其實一直在追啦"},{"start":5496.16,"end":5498.16,"text":"那我一直在強調的一句話就是說"},{"start":5498.16,"end":5500.16,"text":"主權AI它不只是模型"},{"start":5500.16,"end":5503.16,"text":"它其實也是包含資料算力"},{"start":5503.16,"end":5505.16,"text":"還有長期的維運"},{"start":5505.16,"end":5508.16,"text":"那現在其實我們面對一個比較現實的一個狀況是"},{"start":5508.16,"end":5514.16,"text":"我們看到這個台灣的合法的語料大概是100GB"},{"start":5514.16,"end":5518.16,"text":"那另外呢在日本呢其實大概是25pp"},{"start":5518.16,"end":5520.16,"text":"那全球的中文的語料"},{"start":5520.16,"end":5522.16,"text":"90%是來自於中國"},{"start":5522.16,"end":5524.16,"text":"那換句話來說"},{"start":5524.16,"end":5526.16,"text":"我們在用AI"},{"start":5526.16,"end":5529.16,"text":"可是資料的主權居然不在自己的手上"},{"start":5529.16,"end":5532.16,"text":"我想這個部分呢大家都會有一些隱憂啦"},{"start":5532.16,"end":5534.16,"text":"那我想這個問題是"},{"start":5534.16,"end":5538.16,"text":"不管是語料、模型、應用還是分三邊在做"},{"start":5538.16,"end":5540.16,"text":"語料是書發鋪"},{"start":5540.16,"end":5542.16,"text":"那內容的部分應該是中研院"},{"start":5542.16,"end":5543.16,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5543.16,"end":5545.16,"text":"那模型的部分是國科會"},{"start":5545.16,"end":5546.16,"text":"好 又來了"},{"start":5546.16,"end":5548.16,"text":"這個三個感覺都分工啊"},{"start":5548.16,"end":5549.16,"text":"都很細啊"},{"start":5549.16,"end":5551.16,"text":"但問題是我們現在在講的是"},{"start":5551.16,"end":5556.16,"text":"中間會不會缺少一條所謂的整體的戰略的主軸"},{"start":5556.16,"end":5558.16,"text":"那這個部分請問誰來回答"},{"start":5558.16,"end":5562.16,"text":"目前我們到底有沒有主權AI的整體的戰略的整合的機制"},{"start":5562.16,"end":5565.16,"text":"然後再來我們又是怎麼樣三個部會"},{"start":5565.16,"end":5567.16,"text":"是怎麼樣來做分工協作的"},{"start":5567.16,"end":5568.16,"text":"來"},{"start":5568.16,"end":5569.16,"text":"跟我來回報其實這一塊"},{"start":5569.16,"end":5571.16,"text":"雖然是分三個單位在做"},{"start":5571.16,"end":5574.16,"text":"其實我們是一起在努力啦"},{"start":5574.16,"end":5578.16,"text":"所以模型這一塊雖然是國科會在主導"},{"start":5578.16,"end":5582.16,"text":"但是其實我們也是跟中研院合作在做開發跟更新"},{"start":5582.16,"end":5583.16,"text":"好"},{"start":5583.16,"end":5585.16,"text":"那既然是三個部會都有在做"},{"start":5585.16,"end":5586.16,"text":"那請問"},{"start":5586.16,"end":5589.16,"text":"我們這個具體的一些羽料的建設的一個目標啦"},{"start":5589.16,"end":5591.16,"text":"我要問一下這個目標了"},{"start":5591.16,"end":5592.16,"text":"我們要做到多少量"},{"start":5592.16,"end":5593.16,"text":"我們要幾年完成"},{"start":5593.16,"end":5597.16,"text":"然後再來我們能不能夠支撐下一代的這個模型的部分"},{"start":5597.16,"end":5599.16,"text":"這個誰可以回答我"},{"start":5603.46,"end":5604.46,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5604.46,"end":5608.46,"text":"這個羽料的部分我們在法規上有非常大的限制"},{"start":5608.46,"end":5612.46,"text":"我想這個委員也應該清楚"},{"start":5612.46,"end":5616.46,"text":"因為台灣的駐座權法的這個規定還有合理使用"},{"start":5616.46,"end":5618.46,"text":"我們有沒有一個目標啊"},{"start":5618.46,"end":5624.46,"text":"我們在這個數位部現在在朝逆這個資料創新發展利用條例底下"},{"start":5624.46,"end":5627.46,"text":"希望有一些能夠有一些突破"},{"start":5627.46,"end":5629.46,"text":"那我們現在也在積極溝通當中"},{"start":5629.46,"end":5632.46,"text":"那另外就是說我們目前能做的是"},{"start":5632.46,"end":5636.46,"text":"透過羽料庫的建立設計一定的授權機制"},{"start":5636.46,"end":5639.46,"text":"那首先要請各部會來提供羽料"},{"start":5639.46,"end":5645.46,"text":"那另外今年開始我們也邀請民間廠商能夠依據這個授權機制"},{"start":5645.46,"end":5648.46,"text":"來把他們的羽料放進這個主權羽料庫裡面"},{"start":5648.46,"end":5649.46,"text":"好"},{"start":5649.46,"end":5650.46,"text":"那當然"},{"start":5651.52,"end":5655.52,"text":"希望能夠持續推進如果在法規上面有更大的突破"},{"start":5655.52,"end":5660.52,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時程可以完成或者是完成多少的目標"},{"start":5660.52,"end":5665.52,"text":"那另外剛剛有提到所謂的羽料的部分其實包含"},{"start":5665.52,"end":5668.52,"text":"我們現在講羽料大部分是所謂的這個科普跟學科啦"},{"start":5668.52,"end":5669.52,"text":"科普跟學科"},{"start":5669.52,"end":5676.52,"text":"但是問題是我們有很大很重要的一個關鍵是產業資料跟實務上的一個資料"},{"start":5676.52,"end":5680.52,"text":"我們怎麼樣讓這個部分也能夠進入到所謂的AI的訓練"},{"start":5680.52,"end":5687.52,"text":"這些制度或者有一些誘因能夠來吸引所謂的這個這樣子的一個方向啦"},{"start":5687.52,"end":5690.52,"text":"是跟委員報告就是有關於這個羽料庫呢"},{"start":5690.52,"end":5694.52,"text":"速發布在去年年底的時候12月24號之後公布上線"},{"start":5694.52,"end":5697.52,"text":"那目前的羽料量是1.2billion tokens"},{"start":5697.52,"end":5702.52,"text":"那當然這我們是羽料庫的這個增級我們是先從中央政府開始"},{"start":5702.52,"end":5706.52,"text":"那在今年的年初的時候我們就朝地方政府邁進"},{"start":5706.52,"end":5709.52,"text":"所以會有很多這個在地的羽料一起進來"},{"start":5709.52,"end":5713.52,"text":"那我們在今年下半年會針對這個民間的這個羽料開始進行增級"},{"start":5713.52,"end":5716.52,"text":"所以我們是有系統有步驟的方式來擴大我們的羽料量"},{"start":5716.52,"end":5718.52,"text":"那我覺得這個羽料量是沒有止境的一天了"},{"start":5718.52,"end":5720.52,"text":"我們會努力的不斷的把這個羽料庫擴張"},{"start":5720.52,"end":5721.52,"text":"那有沒有定期的一個盤點"},{"start":5721.52,"end":5724.52,"text":"那這個盤點的一些資訊是不是可以公開可以提供"},{"start":5724.52,"end":5728.52,"text":"然後再來有沒有變成一個所謂的這個成效評估的一個機制"},{"start":5728.52,"end":5733.52,"text":"就是它變成一個可以被一直不斷的被複製一直不斷的被修正這樣子的一個機制"},{"start":5733.52,"end":5734.52,"text":"對委員的建議非常的好"},{"start":5734.52,"end":5736.52,"text":"就是說我們在中央跟地方政府這個部分"},{"start":5736.52,"end":5739.52,"text":"我們都有開工作坊請他們來進行定期的盤點"},{"start":5739.52,"end":5742.52,"text":"那我們在年底的時候呢我會有一個評獎的機制"},{"start":5742.52,"end":5743.52,"text":"大概是多久"},{"start":5743.52,"end":5746.52,"text":"就是大概就是說我們大概每兩三個月就請他們盤一次"},{"start":5746.52,"end":5751.52,"text":"那盤一次我們會有協助的方式把他們的請他們把資料放到這個羽料庫上面來"},{"start":5751.52,"end":5754.52,"text":"那我們在年底的時候呢我會有個評獎的一個機制"},{"start":5754.52,"end":5758.52,"text":"看看中央跟地方政府還有這個民間團體他們這個努力的成果"},{"start":5758.52,"end":5759.52,"text":"所以有一些優因就對了"},{"start":5759.52,"end":5761.52,"text":"對會有個頒獎的一個機制這樣"},{"start":5761.52,"end":5764.52,"text":"好如果有一些比較具體的一些計畫"},{"start":5764.52,"end":5767.52,"text":"這些計畫就像您剛剛所說的這些內容其實是很豐富的"},{"start":5767.52,"end":5770.52,"text":"那這些具體的計畫可以再提供給我辦公室嗎"},{"start":5770.52,"end":5773.52,"text":"可以我們會整理一份資料給委員辦公室參考"},{"start":5773.52,"end":5774.52,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5774.52,"end":5775.52,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":5776.58,"end":5780.58,"text":"好謝謝郭一群委員的質詢請官員回座"},{"start":5780.58,"end":5784.58,"text":"接下來有請陳秀寶委員進行詢答"},{"start":5792.48,"end":5796.48,"text":"謝謝主席我們這邊先請國科會陳副主委"},{"start":5796.48,"end":5800.48,"text":"好請國科會陳副主委上背訓台謝謝"},{"start":5805.12,"end":5806.12,"text":"委員早"},{"start":5806.38,"end":5815.38,"text":"副主委好我們先來關心一下有關於台師大體操教練涉及這個霸凌這個案子"},{"start":5815.38,"end":5820.38,"text":"那昨天台師大已經做出停聘兩年的這個處分"},{"start":5820.38,"end":5824.38,"text":"那目前會將這個處分先送到教育部來審議"},{"start":5824.38,"end":5828.38,"text":"那真的這個部分在這邊想請教國科會"},{"start":5828.38,"end":5830.38,"text":"目前有沒有收到學校的通報"},{"start":5835.12,"end":5836.12,"text":"通報"},{"start":5836.64,"end":5837.64,"text":"有嗎有收到嗎"},{"start":5837.64,"end":5838.64,"text":"包圍目前還沒有"},{"start":5838.64,"end":5839.64,"text":"還沒有"},{"start":5839.64,"end":5847.64,"text":"那我想請教未來學校通報之後你們會不會有相關停止補助或是撤換主持人這些處理"},{"start":5848.37,"end":5852.37,"text":"公務員回報我們會依據這個我們的作業要點去做處置"},{"start":5852.37,"end":5854.37,"text":"但是你作業要點裡面有規範嗎"},{"start":5855.88,"end":5856.88,"text":"就是"},{"start":5856.88,"end":5858.88,"text":"我請同仁慢慢回答"},{"start":5858.88,"end":5862.88,"text":"我先把這部分先跟您討論一下"},{"start":5862.88,"end":5870.88,"text":"國科會這邊給本席的資料就是說這位涉及霸凌的案子的這個體操教練現在有兩個案子在執行中"},{"start":5870.88,"end":5874.88,"text":"就是國科會的計畫一件事到明年一件事到今年底"},{"start":5874.88,"end":5877.88,"text":"那目前這個計畫還在執行中嗎"},{"start":5879.2,"end":5881.2,"text":"OK"},{"start":5880.55,"end":5882.55,"text":"目前還在執行中"},{"start":5882.55,"end":5886.55,"text":"那國科會會不會在懲處確認之後有進一步的處理後續處理是什麼"},{"start":5886.55,"end":5890.55,"text":"你是說會根據要點來做處理"},{"start":5890.55,"end":5894.55,"text":"但是呢針對我們國科會的這個補助計畫要點我們來討論一下"},{"start":5894.55,"end":5898.55,"text":"目前要點裡面只有針對違反性平相關法規"},{"start":5898.55,"end":5901.55,"text":"那經主管機關查證屬實之後"},{"start":5901.55,"end":5908.55,"text":"國科會呢會召開專案小組審議是否暫停補助或是撤換計畫主持人"},{"start":5908.55,"end":5914.55,"text":"但是針對現在校園裡面比較會有狀況的除了性平之外就是霸凌事件"},{"start":5914.55,"end":5920.55,"text":"要點裡面並沒有針對霸凌事件有相關召開專案小組審議的這個機制喔"},{"start":5920.55,"end":5926.55,"text":"那所以剛才您說要針對這個案子我們會按照"},{"start":5926.92,"end":5929.92,"text":"要點來處置那你們現在做法是什麼"},{"start":5929.92,"end":5935.92,"text":"報告委員就是目前依據我們要點裡面有規定"},{"start":5935.92,"end":5940.92,"text":"如果經過學校或者是教育部這邊確定相關的處分"},{"start":5940.92,"end":5944.92,"text":"那計畫主持人他沒有辦法因故無法執行的話"},{"start":5944.92,"end":5948.92,"text":"那執行機構必須要辦理計畫終止或更換主持人"},{"start":5948.92,"end":5952.92,"text":"所以要點裡面並不是說去規範說他是違反了什麼"},{"start":5952.92,"end":5957.92,"text":"只是說他因為這些處置而沒有辦法執行的時候你們就會更換"},{"start":5957.92,"end":5959.92,"text":"是的"},{"start":5960.42,"end":5968.42,"text":"在這邊其實本席是要建議國科會要參照教師法第14條及第15條的規定"},{"start":5968.42,"end":5976.42,"text":"針對需要因為對教師體罰學生或是霸凌的規範"},{"start":5976.42,"end":5980.42,"text":"我們應該把相關的規範放進我們的要點裡面"},{"start":5980.42,"end":5983.42,"text":"因為如果經過主管機關查證屬實"},{"start":5983.42,"end":5987.42,"text":"那其實在國科會的部分這個部分不管是事件成立審議的過程"},{"start":5987.42,"end":5989.42,"text":"國科會是不介入的"},{"start":5989.42,"end":5996.42,"text":"但是你要針對查證屬實的案件事案的教師我們做出計畫終止或是策劃的決議"},{"start":5996.42,"end":6001.42,"text":"所以我們是不是可以把霸凌處置的機制放進去要點裡面"},{"start":6001.42,"end":6004.42,"text":"我們來做到落實霸凌零容忍"},{"start":6004.42,"end":6005.42,"text":"這個可以嗎"},{"start":6006.3,"end":6008.3,"text":"我們回去會再做研議"},{"start":6008.3,"end":6012.3,"text":"因為現在在針對校園裡面比較大家非常重視"},{"start":6012.3,"end":6017.3,"text":"而且現在就是比較多比較嚴重的就是性平跟霸凌的事件"},{"start":6017.3,"end":6023.3,"text":"所以會建議說我們國科會要把相關的規範放進去你們的要點裡面"},{"start":6023.3,"end":6024.3,"text":"這樣會更明確"},{"start":6024.3,"end":6031.3,"text":"而不是說他如果經過學校的或者是相關會議的查證屬實之後"},{"start":6031.3,"end":6035.3,"text":"你們是針對他對他的懲處結果來做這樣的處置"},{"start":6035.3,"end":6040.3,"text":"但是其實他如果我們把這個相關的規範放進去的話就是很明確了"},{"start":6040.3,"end":6042.3,"text":"這個你們再研議一下"},{"start":6042.3,"end":6047.3,"text":"這邊我也要提醒就是說針對違法要點章處分"},{"start":6047.3,"end":6052.3,"text":"不管是策劃或者是一定期間不可再申請的這些主持人"},{"start":6052.3,"end":6057.3,"text":"我們應該要有相關的資料庫把這些資料建置起來"},{"start":6057.3,"end":6062.3,"text":"到申請的人或是有其他子計畫需要尋找主持人的計畫的時候"},{"start":6062.3,"end":6064.3,"text":"有可以依循的資料"},{"start":6064.3,"end":6067.3,"text":"那也避免有受管制的這個狀況"},{"start":6067.3,"end":6068.3,"text":"這個可以嗎"},{"start":6070.24,"end":6073.24,"text":"報告我們前市議已經有類似的資料庫在做處理"},{"start":6073.24,"end":6074.24,"text":"是已經有"},{"start":6074.24,"end":6078.24,"text":"那好這個部分就是你們已經有先做這樣子的措施"},{"start":6078.24,"end":6079.24,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6079.24,"end":6082.24,"text":"那接下來我先再請速發部侯次長"},{"start":6090.68,"end":6091.68,"text":"次長好"},{"start":6091.68,"end":6093.68,"text":"我想請教次長"},{"start":6093.68,"end":6094.68,"text":"是"},{"start":6094.68,"end":6097.68,"text":"AI基本法在去年底已經三讀通過"},{"start":6097.68,"end":6102.68,"text":"那市面上開始就有很多販售越來越多的這些號稱具有AI功能的產品"},{"start":6102.68,"end":6108.68,"text":"那本席想針對這些AI產品有相關的問題來請請教來釐清"},{"start":6108.68,"end":6111.68,"text":"市面上有許多號稱有AI功能的產品"},{"start":6111.68,"end":6114.68,"text":"像我們現在那個通影片上面的"},{"start":6114.68,"end":6117.68,"text":"家電產品很多就是會標榜他是AI"},{"start":6117.68,"end":6121.68,"text":"那次長您這邊看一下說本席投影片上面"},{"start":6121.68,"end":6124.68,"text":"這些目前上說是存在就是販售的AI產品"},{"start":6124.68,"end":6125.68,"text":"你們覺得"},{"start":6125.68,"end":6129.68,"text":"有哪些是真正有運用到AI的科技"},{"start":6131.6,"end":6132.6,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6132.6,"end":6137.6,"text":"委員提出的這個問題其實非常非常的這個重要"},{"start":6137.6,"end":6145.6,"text":"那其實沒有辦法從這個行銷廣告上面他說是AI我們就直接認定是AI"},{"start":6145.6,"end":6146.6,"text":"所以"},{"start":6146.6,"end":6147.6,"text":"所以"},{"start":6147.6,"end":6153.6,"text":"我想必須要透過這個人工智慧基本法裡面這個"},{"start":6153.6,"end":6154.6,"text":"的定義"},{"start":6154.6,"end":6158.6,"text":"那我們在人工智慧基本法裡面的定義應該是"},{"start":6158.6,"end":6175.6,"text":"然後透過機器學習演算法針對明確或隱含目標實現預測內容建議或決策影響實體或虛擬環境的產出"},{"start":6175.6,"end":6180.6,"text":"市長您的回答就是這個AI基本法的規範AI的定義"},{"start":6180.6,"end":6183.6,"text":"他就是要包含自主運行能力"},{"start":6183.6,"end":6185.6,"text":"那機器可以學習跟演算"},{"start":6185.6,"end":6190.6,"text":"那也可以產出影響實體或虛擬環境之預測內容建議或決策"},{"start":6190.6,"end":6191.6,"text":"但是"},{"start":6191.6,"end":6193.6,"text":"如同剛才我們所說的"},{"start":6193.6,"end":6195.6,"text":"就觀看相片圖片"},{"start":6195.6,"end":6198.6,"text":"或是說他上面寫了AI其實我們很難去判斷"},{"start":6198.6,"end":6199.6,"text":"他是不是真的有這些功能"},{"start":6199.6,"end":6202.6,"text":"但其實這些產品"},{"start":6202.6,"end":6203.6,"text":"他不用寫AI"},{"start":6203.6,"end":6206.6,"text":"他本身就是一個很好用的家電了"},{"start":6206.6,"end":6209.6,"text":"那你灌上AI其實對消費者來講"},{"start":6209.6,"end":6210.6,"text":"他會覺得說"},{"start":6210.6,"end":6211.6,"text":"他沒有辦法理解說"},{"start":6211.6,"end":6213.6,"text":"他本來就是很基本功能的"},{"start":6213.6,"end":6215.6,"text":"像滑鼠還是吹風機"},{"start":6215.6,"end":6218.6,"text":"他灌上AI之後對他的使用性"},{"start":6218.6,"end":6220.6,"text":"實用性或者影響在哪裡"},{"start":6220.6,"end":6221.6,"text":"那對民眾來講"},{"start":6221.6,"end":6225.6,"text":"他感受到最大的差別是"},{"start":6225.6,"end":6228.6,"text":"只要灌上AI兩個字好像價格就會提高"},{"start":6228.6,"end":6231.6,"text":"這很明顯的會讓我們的消費者權益受損"},{"start":6231.6,"end":6232.6,"text":"他會多花冤枉錢"},{"start":6232.6,"end":6234.6,"text":"那為什麼在這邊提出"},{"start":6234.6,"end":6235.6,"text":"就是說"},{"start":6235.6,"end":6240.6,"text":"他廠商他可以任意的在他的產品上面放AI這兩個字嗎"},{"start":6240.6,"end":6242.6,"text":"字幕 by 沛隊"},{"start":6243.91,"end":6245.91,"text":"就這個部分來說"},{"start":6245.91,"end":6247.91,"text":"我不太確定這個"},{"start":6247.91,"end":6248.91,"text":"就是"},{"start":6249.39,"end":6253.39,"text":"是不是有涉及這個不實廣告的部分"},{"start":6253.39,"end":6255.39,"text":"市長這邊要跟您討論就是說"},{"start":6255.39,"end":6257.39,"text":"我們剛才有提到了"},{"start":6257.39,"end":6259.39,"text":"就是AI基本法裡面有規定"},{"start":6259.39,"end":6261.39,"text":"AI的定義有三個要點"},{"start":6263.13,"end":6267.13,"text":"這些宣稱有相關的AI科技的相關產品"},{"start":6267.13,"end":6269.13,"text":"是不是一定要符合這些要件"},{"start":6269.13,"end":6271.13,"text":"他才能"},{"start":6270.96,"end":6272.96,"text":"說他是AI的產品"},{"start":6276.24,"end":6280.24,"text":"就是說他如果不符合我們剛才講的自主運行能力"},{"start":6280.24,"end":6284.24,"text":"或是可以學習演算相關的這樣的基本這些功能"},{"start":6284.24,"end":6287.24,"text":"他是不是應該不能標榜他是AI的產品"},{"start":6288.46,"end":6290.46,"text":"委員就我目前所知"},{"start":6290.46,"end":6292.46,"text":"似乎沒有法律明確這樣子強制"},{"start":6294.43,"end":6297.43,"text":"好那我現在要給你們的建議就是說"},{"start":6297.43,"end":6300.43,"text":"近來我們AI基本法已經三讀通過"},{"start":6300.43,"end":6302.43,"text":"對於AI的定義也已經很明確"},{"start":6302.43,"end":6304.43,"text":"就是我們剛講的那三個要件"},{"start":6304.43,"end":6310.43,"text":"那希望說我們相關的部會是不是可以協助這些相關AI科技的應用"},{"start":6310.43,"end":6314.43,"text":"那是不是有民眾建議說他可以像節能標章一樣"},{"start":6314.43,"end":6319.43,"text":"是有申請有認證來保障消費者權益的"},{"start":6319.43,"end":6320.43,"text":"市長您覺得呢"},{"start":6321.74,"end":6326.74,"text":"這部分我想會跟各個主管機關去做討論"},{"start":6326.74,"end":6328.74,"text":"那也跟委員報告"},{"start":6328.74,"end":6331.74,"text":"因為人工智慧基本法第三條"},{"start":6331.74,"end":6333.74,"text":"雖然這樣子定義"},{"start":6333.74,"end":6338.74,"text":"但是因為這個技術一直在發展當中"},{"start":6338.74,"end":6342.74,"text":"那而且目前變化非常非常的快"},{"start":6342.74,"end":6344.74,"text":"那在不同的領域裡面"},{"start":6344.74,"end":6349.74,"text":"到底怎麼去定義他已經有自主運行能力"},{"start":6349.74,"end":6355.74,"text":"我覺得在各個領域裡面對技術的評估可能會不太一樣"},{"start":6355.74,"end":6360.74,"text":"那是不是能夠透過這個標章的方式"},{"start":6360.74,"end":6364.74,"text":"我想我們會去做討論和研究"},{"start":6364.74,"end":6368.74,"text":"我想我本席在這邊提出這樣子的一個疑問的時候"},{"start":6368.74,"end":6370.74,"text":"市長你本身也會覺得說"},{"start":6370.74,"end":6373.74,"text":"好像他說他是AI"},{"start":6373.74,"end":6374.74,"text":"那到底是不是"},{"start":6374.74,"end":6379.74,"text":"還是只是他只是具備基本的這樣產品必須具備的功能而已"},{"start":6379.74,"end":6382.74,"text":"但他只是因為就有登上這個熱潮"},{"start":6382.74,"end":6384.74,"text":"他就是放上AI兩個字"},{"start":6384.74,"end":6386.74,"text":"當然讓消費者他也無所適從"},{"start":6386.74,"end":6388.74,"text":"他也無法辨別"},{"start":6388.74,"end":6390.74,"text":"然後因為這樣子他多花了錢"},{"start":6390.74,"end":6392.74,"text":"所以當有這樣子的疑慮產生的時候"},{"start":6392.74,"end":6394.74,"text":"這邊提醒的是會希望說"},{"start":6394.74,"end":6398.74,"text":"我們跟國科會跟經濟部"},{"start":6398.74,"end":6400.74,"text":"我們是共同來研議"},{"start":6400.74,"end":6402.74,"text":"剛才有民眾建議的時候"},{"start":6402.74,"end":6407.74,"text":"我們用一個標章或是說一個申請的認證來保護消費者"},{"start":6407.74,"end":6411.74,"text":"也讓這些相關的家電電器的產品"},{"start":6411.74,"end":6412.74,"text":"他們在生產的時候"},{"start":6412.74,"end":6416.74,"text":"他們因為是需要透過認證或申請或一個這樣的程序"},{"start":6416.74,"end":6418.74,"text":"他們在他們產品精益求精"},{"start":6418.74,"end":6422.74,"text":"如果說想要讓民眾覺得說我的東西更好用"},{"start":6422.74,"end":6424.74,"text":"我想要有AI這樣的功能"},{"start":6424.74,"end":6425.74,"text":"他必須去研發"},{"start":6425.74,"end":6429.74,"text":"而不是說輕易的把這樣子的稱為灌上去之後"},{"start":6429.74,"end":6431.74,"text":"他就可以得到消費者的支持"},{"start":6431.74,"end":6432.74,"text":"您覺得呢"},{"start":6432.74,"end":6434.74,"text":"謝謝委員的意見"},{"start":6434.74,"end":6436.74,"text":"我覺得這個方向"},{"start":6436.74,"end":6440.74,"text":"我們會去跟各個部會在這個風險分類框架底下"},{"start":6440.74,"end":6442.74,"text":"去做這個討論"},{"start":6442.74,"end":6447.74,"text":"和這個所謂就是委員剛提出來的這個"},{"start":6447.74,"end":6452.74,"text":"不論是標章認證還是能量登錄這一種方式"},{"start":6452.74,"end":6457.74,"text":"應該是在各個可能的就是因應措施裡面"},{"start":6457.74,"end":6458.74,"text":"必須要被考慮的"},{"start":6458.74,"end":6460.74,"text":"好 那就麻煩市長"},{"start":6460.74,"end":6463.74,"text":"您在跟國科會或經濟部你們有演繹出來"},{"start":6463.74,"end":6465.74,"text":"有一個初步的結論的時候"},{"start":6465.74,"end":6467.74,"text":"可以把你們的報告給我辦公室"},{"start":6467.74,"end":6468.74,"text":"好的 謝謝委員"},{"start":6468.74,"end":6469.74,"text":"以上謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":6471.67,"end":6473.67,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢"},{"start":6473.67,"end":6474.67,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":6474.67,"end":6478.67,"text":"接下來有請陳培宇委員進行詢答"},{"start":6484.63,"end":6486.63,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":6487.73,"end":6489.73,"text":"有請次長"},{"start":6489.73,"end":6491.73,"text":"國科會副主委還有書發部次長"},{"start":6491.73,"end":6492.73,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6492.73,"end":6495.73,"text":"好 請器官代表上備訓台"},{"start":6499.46,"end":6501.46,"text":"好 副主委還有次長早安"},{"start":6501.46,"end":6503.46,"text":"我想我還是要問一樣的事情"},{"start":6503.46,"end":6506.46,"text":"但是我們來更新一下你們目前最新的進度"},{"start":6506.46,"end":6508.46,"text":"第一個是關於AI十大建設"},{"start":6508.46,"end":6510.46,"text":"在國發會裡面已經公佈了"},{"start":6510.46,"end":6514.46,"text":"114到117年十大建設推動方案"},{"start":6514.46,"end":6517.46,"text":"那根據國發會的這個十大建設方案的指導裡面"},{"start":6517.46,"end":6522.46,"text":"第七點有提到主權AI還有算力建設的部分"},{"start":6522.46,"end":6527.46,"text":"我相信兩位學者專家你們雖然現在在公佈我們服務"},{"start":6527.46,"end":6529.46,"text":"但是你們來自民間的專業"},{"start":6529.46,"end":6533.46,"text":"你們一定認同大家現在在說的算力及國力"},{"start":6533.46,"end":6536.46,"text":"但是我相信兩位應該也知道另外一個事情"},{"start":6536.46,"end":6538.46,"text":"可能這句話只講對了一半"},{"start":6538.46,"end":6543.46,"text":"因為在最近一次4月多在總統府有一個關於"},{"start":6543.46,"end":6546.46,"text":"跟民間學者這個頒獎的活動上"},{"start":6546.46,"end":6551.46,"text":"有非常多做開放資料的人直接跟賴總統建議"},{"start":6551.46,"end":6552.46,"text":"他們說什麼呢"},{"start":6552.46,"end":6554.46,"text":"我不確定兩位有沒有follow到這個事情"},{"start":6554.46,"end":6555.46,"text":"另外一個事情"},{"start":6555.46,"end":6558.46,"text":"例如說有一個叫Open Fund的創辦人"},{"start":6558.46,"end":6562.46,"text":"他就說AI是日益強大的引擎"},{"start":6562.46,"end":6566.46,"text":"而資料則是驅動引擎運轉的石油"},{"start":6566.46,"end":6569.46,"text":"所以剛剛郭育勤委員也問到關於資料的部分"},{"start":6569.46,"end":6573.46,"text":"而另外一個在做開放資料的開放文化基金會裡面"},{"start":6573.46,"end":6578.46,"text":"他們也說了主權不該只是放在兩岸議題上"},{"start":6578.46,"end":6581.46,"text":"資料也是一種主權"},{"start":6581.46,"end":6585.46,"text":"所以剛剛以前我們關於資料想的是文本思維"},{"start":6585.46,"end":6587.46,"text":"現在在看的是資料思維"},{"start":6587.46,"end":6591.46,"text":"第三個下一個階段不只是監督政府"},{"start":6591.46,"end":6594.46,"text":"而是要邀請民間一起協作"},{"start":6594.46,"end":6597.46,"text":"所以我要回過頭來看AI十大建設裡面"},{"start":6597.46,"end":6600.46,"text":"其中有一個是國發會提醒大家的"},{"start":6600.46,"end":6603.46,"text":"要做政府及民間資料的釋出"},{"start":6603.46,"end":6605.46,"text":"我相信兩個應該都有"},{"start":6605.46,"end":6606.46,"text":"你們兩個應該都非常清楚"},{"start":6606.46,"end":6608.46,"text":"可是我們要問喔"},{"start":6608.46,"end":6610.46,"text":"我認為在民間資料的釋出"},{"start":6610.46,"end":6613.46,"text":"其實可能比公部門遇到的資料釋出"},{"start":6613.46,"end":6615.46,"text":"還要面臨更大的困難"},{"start":6615.46,"end":6618.46,"text":"對不對 我想要先請次長你來說說看"},{"start":6618.46,"end":6620.46,"text":"關於民間資料的部分"},{"start":6620.46,"end":6624.46,"text":"目前你們訴發部是如何看待現在可能遇到的困難"},{"start":6624.46,"end":6627.46,"text":"還有你們掌握了多少的進度跟可能性"},{"start":6627.46,"end":6629.46,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":6629.46,"end":6633.46,"text":"委員剛剛提到的在總統府的那一個會議"},{"start":6633.46,"end":6639.46,"text":"其實是訴發部協助的IT matters的"},{"start":6639.46,"end":6641.46,"text":"Award的頒獎"},{"start":6641.46,"end":6644.46,"text":"我也在查"},{"start":6644.46,"end":6648.46,"text":"其實當場總統就只是我們根據"},{"start":6648.46,"end":6652.46,"text":"就是據剛剛您提到的發言"},{"start":6652.46,"end":6655.46,"text":"必須要再去做追蹤和研究"},{"start":6655.46,"end":6658.46,"text":"確實在民間資料的部分"},{"start":6658.46,"end":6663.46,"text":"我想有幾個比較現實上面的影響"},{"start":6663.46,"end":6666.46,"text":"第一個的問題是"},{"start":6666.46,"end":6668.46,"text":"諸多權拔底下"},{"start":6668.46,"end":6672.46,"text":"到底就是算不算訓練"},{"start":6672.46,"end":6675.46,"text":"或是產出在什麼條件底下"},{"start":6675.46,"end":6676.46,"text":"算是合理使用"},{"start":6676.46,"end":6680.46,"text":"這件事情一直不明確"},{"start":6680.46,"end":6682.46,"text":"跟國外的狀況比較的話"},{"start":6682.46,"end":6685.46,"text":"台灣因為刑事責任"},{"start":6685.46,"end":6687.46,"text":"被使用的比較多的關係"},{"start":6687.46,"end":6691.46,"text":"因此確實會有這個寒蟬效應"},{"start":6691.46,"end":6696.46,"text":"就是訓練者會對於去利用訓練資料"},{"start":6696.46,"end":6699.46,"text":"感到非常比較恐懼"},{"start":6699.46,"end":6703.46,"text":"這是一個我們看到現實上的障礙"},{"start":6703.46,"end":6705.46,"text":"但是當然也很重要"},{"start":6705.46,"end":6707.46,"text":"就是我們怎麼樣在"},{"start":6711.18,"end":6715.18,"text":"在保障這個內容權利人的方面"},{"start":6715.18,"end":6719.18,"text":"我們必須要取得一個重要的平衡"},{"start":6719.18,"end":6723.18,"text":"這中間有一些比較細緻的線"},{"start":6723.18,"end":6727.18,"text":"還有內容的利用方式"},{"start":6727.18,"end":6729.18,"text":"在什麼條件底下會不一樣"},{"start":6729.18,"end":6733.18,"text":"這個我們都希望能夠有更明確的界定"},{"start":6733.18,"end":6735.18,"text":"在AIC實渣建設底下"},{"start":6735.18,"end":6738.18,"text":"剛剛委員所提到的那個項目"},{"start":6738.18,"end":6740.18,"text":"是由處發部這邊主責"},{"start":6740.18,"end":6743.18,"text":"那也邀請這個智慧財產局"},{"start":6743.18,"end":6745.18,"text":"去負責關於民間資料"},{"start":6745.18,"end":6747.18,"text":"有著作權的資料"},{"start":6747.18,"end":6749.18,"text":"到底能不能被利用這個部分"},{"start":6749.18,"end":6752.18,"text":"去做負責"},{"start":6752.18,"end":6754.18,"text":"那這個部分就"},{"start":6754.18,"end":6758.18,"text":"經濟部制裁局給我們的意見是說"},{"start":6758.18,"end":6761.18,"text":"給我們的資訊是他們應該會在"},{"start":6761.18,"end":6763.18,"text":"今年的5月的時候"},{"start":6763.18,"end":6765.18,"text":"會有一個指引出來"},{"start":6765.18,"end":6767.18,"text":"那我們希望透過這樣的指引"},{"start":6767.18,"end":6770.18,"text":"能夠提供比較明確的利用的界線"},{"start":6770.18,"end":6774.18,"text":"那處發部目前已經在做能做的"},{"start":6774.18,"end":6776.18,"text":"是第一個就是"},{"start":6776.18,"end":6778.18,"text":"與料庫透過這個授權的方式"},{"start":6778.18,"end":6782.18,"text":"來明定這個授權資料的利用的方式"},{"start":6782.18,"end":6784.18,"text":"那包括剛剛說的政府機關"},{"start":6784.18,"end":6787.18,"text":"那民間的力量呢"},{"start":6787.18,"end":6789.18,"text":"我們也已經召開工作方"},{"start":6789.18,"end":6792.18,"text":"邀請一些可能參與的民間單位"},{"start":6792.18,"end":6794.18,"text":"一起來提供"},{"start":6794.18,"end":6799.18,"text":"那所以這兩個部分是我們已經持續在做的"},{"start":6799.18,"end":6804.18,"text":"那我們也持續在盤點還有哪些可能釋出的餘料"},{"start":6804.18,"end":6807.18,"text":"那也希望能夠提供一個在"},{"start":6807.18,"end":6811.18,"text":"在我們提供的這個資料利用創新條例底下"},{"start":6811.18,"end":6813.18,"text":"草擬中的這個條例底下"},{"start":6813.18,"end":6817.18,"text":"我們也設計了新的資料分享的機制"},{"start":6817.18,"end":6821.18,"text":"就是民間跟民間之間資料分享的機制"},{"start":6821.18,"end":6826.18,"text":"那我們也跟歐盟那邊的這個資料空間"},{"start":6826.18,"end":6829.18,"text":"這樣子的做法去做這個產業界"},{"start":6829.18,"end":6832.18,"text":"之間的這個資料的共享"},{"start":6832.18,"end":6835.18,"text":"希望能夠推動這樣的機制出來"},{"start":6835.18,"end":6838.18,"text":"好我花了這麼多時間讓次長您說清楚"},{"start":6838.18,"end":6842.18,"text":"就是我認為次長您在從民間轉換到公部門之後"},{"start":6842.18,"end":6844.18,"text":"確實非常掌握狀況"},{"start":6844.18,"end":6847.18,"text":"不論是從公部門政府端現在已經有的資料"},{"start":6847.18,"end":6849.18,"text":"或者是民間的資料"},{"start":6849.18,"end":6852.18,"text":"而且相關的法規您意識到有著作權法的問題"},{"start":6852.18,"end":6855.18,"text":"我非常感謝次長您完全進入狀況"},{"start":6855.18,"end":6857.18,"text":"這個是絕對要給您肯定"},{"start":6857.18,"end":6860.18,"text":"但是從這個肯定我們往下看"},{"start":6860.18,"end":6864.18,"text":"確實之前蘇發部長林一靖接受專訪的時候"},{"start":6864.18,"end":6866.18,"text":"在去年的9月他也說"},{"start":6866.18,"end":6870.18,"text":"我們確實要號召民間自願捐出內容"},{"start":6870.18,"end":6874.18,"text":"打造台灣主權AI訓練的餘料庫"},{"start":6874.18,"end":6879.18,"text":"這件事情才可以打包足夠多的資料"},{"start":6879.18,"end":6882.18,"text":"百萬本的資料1TB的資料"},{"start":6882.18,"end":6886.18,"text":"給國際科技巨頭可以使用台灣的資料"},{"start":6886.18,"end":6889.18,"text":"降低資料使用的門檻"},{"start":6889.18,"end":6894.18,"text":"回到所謂的雲端上的台灣的主權的這個議題上"},{"start":6894.18,"end":6899.18,"text":"我認為現在確實如何透過制裁局的合作"},{"start":6899.18,"end":6904.18,"text":"透過民間團體或是所有這些擁有內容的人"},{"start":6904.18,"end":6911.18,"text":"他們如何願意就隱在這個所謂的數位國家內容的台灣隊好了"},{"start":6911.18,"end":6915.18,"text":"他們如何願意就隱進來確實上一次在一樣在交友委員會"},{"start":6915.18,"end":6918.18,"text":"我就直接請問了國科會的主委"},{"start":6918.18,"end":6920.18,"text":"那主委也說他絕對支持"},{"start":6920.18,"end":6925.18,"text":"而且他也絕對明白資料基礎建設的重要性"},{"start":6925.18,"end":6928.18,"text":"但是如果我們光談授權"},{"start":6928.18,"end":6931.18,"text":"它會是一個漫無止盡的道路"},{"start":6931.18,"end":6933.18,"text":"而且如同你所說的"},{"start":6933.42,"end":6935.42,"text":"資料授權的那個授權費用"},{"start":6935.42,"end":6937.42,"text":"現在沒有人知道怎麼算"},{"start":6937.42,"end":6939.42,"text":"其實不是只有台灣"},{"start":6939.42,"end":6941.42,"text":"全世界皆然"},{"start":6941.42,"end":6944.42,"text":"就像泰勒斯大家所熟悉的泰勒斯這兩天"},{"start":6944.42,"end":6947.42,"text":"還在主張他的身文權利"},{"start":6947.42,"end":6952.42,"text":"所以對我來說談授權非常沉重非常困難"},{"start":6952.42,"end":6955.42,"text":"所以上一次國科會主委他的說法是說"},{"start":6955.42,"end":6958.42,"text":"但是民間擁有這些資料的人"},{"start":6958.42,"end":6961.42,"text":"公司也好團體也好所有人也好"},{"start":6961.42,"end":6964.42,"text":"他們如何把資料變成來下一張"},{"start":6964.42,"end":6967.42,"text":"把資料變成是所謂乾淨的資料"},{"start":6967.42,"end":6970.42,"text":"這件事情其實是一個大功臣"},{"start":6970.42,"end":6972.42,"text":"而且需要大筆的預算"},{"start":6972.42,"end":6975.42,"text":"那有沒有可能在內容國家隊的這個"},{"start":6975.42,"end":6977.42,"text":"成立這個內容國家隊前提之下"},{"start":6977.42,"end":6981.42,"text":"由國科會也好國發會也好數發部也好"},{"start":6981.42,"end":6983.42,"text":"甚至協同文化部"},{"start":6983.42,"end":6987.42,"text":"我們開始把各式各樣擁有內容資料的人"},{"start":6987.42,"end":6991.42,"text":"協助他們做資料的優化資料的清洗"},{"start":6991.42,"end":6993.42,"text":"然後做出結構定位"},{"start":6993.42,"end":6996.42,"text":"甚至做出幾適合機器人讀取的標籤"},{"start":6996.42,"end":7000.42,"text":"這是一個龐大的功臣需要龐大的預算"},{"start":7000.42,"end":7003.42,"text":"需要龐大的政府資源的支持"},{"start":7003.42,"end":7006.42,"text":"所以我上一次問國科會主委他的說法是說"},{"start":7006.42,"end":7010.42,"text":"他表示他願意會去想辦法來解決"},{"start":7010.42,"end":7013.42,"text":"我想問一下國科會目前在這個議題上"},{"start":7013.42,"end":7016.42,"text":"上一次我問完之後主委有沒有帶回去討論"},{"start":7016.42,"end":7018.42,"text":"跟做進一步的規劃怎麼說"},{"start":7018.42,"end":7021.42,"text":"大家都以為資料只有平面的"},{"start":7021.42,"end":7023.42,"text":"或者是文字性的資料"},{"start":7023.42,"end":7026.42,"text":"可是當我們去研究世界各國在取用"},{"start":7026.42,"end":7029.42,"text":"世界各國這些大語言模型在取用資料的時候"},{"start":7029.42,"end":7033.42,"text":"從來都不是只有文字也不會只有照片"},{"start":7033.42,"end":7036.42,"text":"我舉一個例子廣播聲音要不要用"},{"start":7036.42,"end":7040.42,"text":"當然要還有台灣的累積的自己累積的"},{"start":7040.42,"end":7043.42,"text":"長年累積的藝術文化這些表演的內容"},{"start":7043.42,"end":7045.42,"text":"要不要取用絕對是要"},{"start":7045.42,"end":7048.42,"text":"因為它有豐富的台灣文化背景"},{"start":7048.42,"end":7053.42,"text":"台灣基礎的邏輯基本上跟世界各國是不一樣的"},{"start":7053.42,"end":7054.42,"text":"那現場還有無視要委員"},{"start":7054.42,"end":7057.42,"text":"他也非常在意台灣的藝術跟文化"},{"start":7057.42,"end":7059.42,"text":"所有這些藝術文化的data"},{"start":7059.42,"end":7065.42,"text":"在未來如何在雲端上不要被其他國家的文化給稀釋掉了"},{"start":7065.42,"end":7069.42,"text":"台灣專門的雲門五級這個是重要的國際團隊"},{"start":7069.42,"end":7072.42,"text":"而這個國際團隊他所背上台灣的文化"},{"start":7072.42,"end":7075.42,"text":"所以台灣文化所發展出的演出也好聲音也好"},{"start":7075.42,"end":7081.42,"text":"所有的資料未來如何加入台灣國家隊獲得合理的對待"},{"start":7081.42,"end":7085.42,"text":"然後把它變成是一個台灣內容國家隊的重要基礎"},{"start":7085.42,"end":7089.42,"text":"絕對我認為是所有教育文化委員會的委員會關心的議題"},{"start":7089.42,"end":7091.42,"text":"所以我要再次強調100萬本"},{"start":7091.42,"end":7095.42,"text":"只是我們用來計算方便的一個可溝通語言"},{"start":7095.42,"end":7098.42,"text":"但是我相信兩位主管你們一定知道"},{"start":7098.42,"end":7100.42,"text":"我講的絕對不會只有平面資料"},{"start":7100.42,"end":7102.42,"text":"所以我非常感謝上次國科會主委"},{"start":7102.42,"end":7105.42,"text":"他立刻明白同時他立刻承諾"},{"start":7105.42,"end":7107.42,"text":"他會回去編輯"},{"start":7107.42,"end":7109.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7109.42,"end":7111.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7111.42,"end":7113.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7113.42,"end":7115.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7115.42,"end":7117.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7117.42,"end":7119.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7119.42,"end":7121.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7121.42,"end":7123.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7123.42,"end":7125.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7125.42,"end":7127.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7127.42,"end":7129.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7129.42,"end":7131.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7131.42,"end":7133.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7133.42,"end":7135.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7135.42,"end":7137.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7137.42,"end":7139.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7139.42,"end":7141.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7141.42,"end":7143.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7143.42,"end":7145.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7145.42,"end":7147.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7147.42,"end":7149.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7149.42,"end":7151.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7151.42,"end":7153.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7153.42,"end":7155.42,"text":"他會去做一些訪問"},{"start":7137.99,"end":7139.99,"text":"請國科會副主委"},{"start":7139.99,"end":7141.99,"text":"還是規劃當中"},{"start":7142.69,"end":7144.69,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":7144.69,"end":7146.69,"text":"副主委 這樣好不好"},{"start":7146.69,"end":7148.69,"text":"我們辦公室會持續跟你們溝通"},{"start":7148.69,"end":7150.69,"text":"因為我們來看下一張"},{"start":7150.55,"end":7152.55,"text":"我知道其實根據AI基本法"},{"start":7152.55,"end":7154.55,"text":"再下一張 根據AI基本法"},{"start":7155.63,"end":7157.63,"text":"國科會這邊必須要組成"},{"start":7157.63,"end":7159.63,"text":"人工智慧戰略特別委員會"},{"start":7159.63,"end":7161.63,"text":"那你們現在委員會"},{"start":7161.63,"end":7163.63,"text":"成立在即喔 我現在看到"},{"start":7163.63,"end":7165.63,"text":"你們現在給我們辦公室的回覆"},{"start":7165.63,"end":7167.63,"text":"是說委員會的設置要點"},{"start":7167.63,"end":7169.63,"text":"還沒有完成"},{"start":7169.63,"end":7171.63,"text":"那現在也都還不知道結果"},{"start":7171.63,"end":7173.63,"text":"可是如果看你們現在給我們的說法"},{"start":7173.63,"end":7175.63,"text":"你們目前只有邀請人工智慧"},{"start":7175.63,"end":7177.63,"text":"相關的學者專家"},{"start":7177.63,"end":7179.63,"text":"民間團體 產業代表"},{"start":7179.63,"end":7181.63,"text":"可是我不知道你們有沒有把所謂"},{"start":7181.63,"end":7183.63,"text":"手上有內容的這些人"},{"start":7183.63,"end":7185.63,"text":"各式各樣的人喔"},{"start":7185.63,"end":7187.63,"text":"聲音 廣播 電視 電影 文字 照片"},{"start":7187.63,"end":7189.63,"text":"這些人有沒有被你們"},{"start":7189.95,"end":7191.95,"text":"視為重要的"},{"start":7191.95,"end":7193.95,"text":"委員會的成員"},{"start":7193.95,"end":7195.95,"text":"所謂這些手上有內容的人"},{"start":7195.95,"end":7197.95,"text":"不管是各個工協會的代表"},{"start":7197.95,"end":7199.95,"text":"或是重要團體的代表"},{"start":7199.95,"end":7201.95,"text":"甚至你們是不是應該要召開"},{"start":7201.95,"end":7203.95,"text":"關於內容產業的民間座談會"},{"start":7203.95,"end":7205.95,"text":"讓所有手上有內容的"},{"start":7205.95,"end":7207.95,"text":"這些人意識到說"},{"start":7207.95,"end":7209.95,"text":"國家看到你們了"},{"start":7209.95,"end":7211.95,"text":"而且國家在建立AI十大基礎建設上"},{"start":7211.95,"end":7213.95,"text":"很需要各位的協助"},{"start":7213.95,"end":7215.95,"text":"因為連賴總統都親自指示"},{"start":7215.95,"end":7217.95,"text":"束髮布跟國科會了"},{"start":7217.95,"end":7219.95,"text":"你們目前關於跟內容產業的合作"},{"start":7219.95,"end":7221.95,"text":"層面的規劃是什麼"},{"start":7222.25,"end":7224.25,"text":"報告委員這邊我們應該會列入參考"},{"start":7224.25,"end":7226.25,"text":"謝謝 好 會列入參考"},{"start":7226.25,"end":7228.25,"text":"那我們辦公室再持續跟你們溝通 好嗎"},{"start":7228.25,"end":7230.25,"text":"好 來 所以最後我想給的建議"},{"start":7230.25,"end":7232.25,"text":"第一個 我希望你們未來"},{"start":7232.25,"end":7234.25,"text":"三年內 就預算的部分"},{"start":7234.25,"end":7236.25,"text":"就政策的部分如何協助所有的"},{"start":7236.25,"end":7238.25,"text":"內容產業"},{"start":7238.94,"end":7240.94,"text":"資料轉換到AI可讀的格式"},{"start":7240.94,"end":7242.94,"text":"的這個邏輯"},{"start":7242.94,"end":7244.94,"text":"工作邏輯 工作流程去想像"},{"start":7244.94,"end":7246.94,"text":"如何在三到五年內"},{"start":7246.94,"end":7248.94,"text":"實現1TB"},{"start":7248.94,"end":7250.94,"text":"餘料庫的這件事情"},{"start":7250.94,"end":7252.94,"text":"跟國外的這些大於人模型公司合作"},{"start":7252.94,"end":7254.94,"text":"讓雲端上的台灣"},{"start":7254.94,"end":7256.94,"text":"不會被消失 這件事情非常重要"},{"start":7256.94,"end":7258.94,"text":"第二個 我也希望你們積極的"},{"start":7258.94,"end":7260.94,"text":"跟文化部也好或是經濟部制裁局"},{"start":7260.94,"end":7262.94,"text":"甚至是"},{"start":7262.94,"end":7264.94,"text":"文策院手上所有內容"},{"start":7264.94,"end":7266.94,"text":"的這些產業都必須要"},{"start":7266.94,"end":7268.94,"text":"有機會加入人工智慧戰略"},{"start":7268.94,"end":7270.94,"text":"特別委員會 我認為"},{"start":7270.94,"end":7272.94,"text":"來自內容產業的人"},{"start":7272.94,"end":7274.94,"text":"聲音非常重要 我上次還舉了一個"},{"start":7274.94,"end":7276.94,"text":"例子 你先去問AI"},{"start":7276.94,"end":7278.94,"text":"沒有人知道吳承文主委"},{"start":7278.94,"end":7280.94,"text":"打過威廉波特棒球隊"},{"start":7280.94,"end":7282.94,"text":"這個事情非常的可惜 所以我想"},{"start":7282.94,"end":7284.94,"text":"如同兩位剛剛的回覆"},{"start":7284.94,"end":7286.94,"text":"非常的積極 我們就後續期待"},{"start":7286.94,"end":7288.94,"text":"我們一起來規劃 一起來推進相關"},{"start":7288.94,"end":7290.94,"text":"工程 好嗎"},{"start":7290.94,"end":7292.94,"text":"好 謝謝 好 最後一個"},{"start":7292.94,"end":7294.94,"text":"那書發部次長先請回"},{"start":7294.94,"end":7296.94,"text":"我問一下國科會副主委"},{"start":7296.94,"end":7298.94,"text":"我們也看到國科會"},{"start":7298.94,"end":7300.94,"text":"在去年開始推動運動"},{"start":7300.94,"end":7302.94,"text":"文化的研究專案"},{"start":7302.94,"end":7304.94,"text":"非常謝謝國科會在導入"},{"start":7304.94,"end":7306.94,"text":"運動議題 在所謂國科會"},{"start":7306.94,"end":7308.94,"text":"推動的研究當中 目前"},{"start":7308.94,"end":7310.94,"text":"我們看到你們規劃三大主軸"},{"start":7310.94,"end":7312.94,"text":"九個議題 我就不再細念了"},{"start":7312.94,"end":7314.94,"text":"那我們看到最後"},{"start":7314.94,"end":7316.94,"text":"核准成案有七個案子"},{"start":7316.94,"end":7318.94,"text":"第一個是在地的"},{"start":7318.94,"end":7320.94,"text":"體育運動文化跟歷史"},{"start":7320.94,"end":7322.94,"text":"一共核准了四個案子 第二個是"},{"start":7322.94,"end":7324.94,"text":"運動媒體跟消費文化創新"},{"start":7324.94,"end":7326.94,"text":"還有社會影響 這非常重要"},{"start":7326.94,"end":7328.94,"text":"兩個案子 再來是關於運動人才"},{"start":7328.94,"end":7330.94,"text":"培育制度的創新"},{"start":7330.94,"end":7332.94,"text":"很棒 有一個案子 可是我覺得"},{"start":7332.94,"end":7334.94,"text":"很可惜 我要先說非常肯定你們的"},{"start":7334.94,"end":7336.94,"text":"努力 也謝謝你們把運動文化"},{"start":7336.94,"end":7338.94,"text":"消費文化人才培育放進去"},{"start":7338.94,"end":7340.94,"text":"但是我們現在看到裡面"},{"start":7340.94,"end":7342.94,"text":"有一些缺漏 我不確定"},{"start":7342.94,"end":7344.94,"text":"是因為沒有人送案 所以沒有通過"},{"start":7344.94,"end":7346.94,"text":"還是因為有人送案"},{"start":7346.94,"end":7348.94,"text":"但是最後沒有被審出來"},{"start":7348.94,"end":7350.94,"text":"就是第一個 關於運動性評的部分"},{"start":7350.94,"end":7352.94,"text":"第二個是關於運動當中的勞動權益"},{"start":7352.94,"end":7354.94,"text":"再來第三個非常重要"},{"start":7354.94,"end":7356.94,"text":"是關於運動當中的兒童權益"},{"start":7356.94,"end":7358.94,"text":"相關的三大主軸"},{"start":7358.94,"end":7360.94,"text":"九個議題"},{"start":7360.94,"end":7362.94,"text":"看起來應該有機會涵誇"},{"start":7362.94,"end":7364.94,"text":"我今天所提醒的 所以我想請"},{"start":7364.94,"end":7366.94,"text":"副主委回答一下 是沒有人遞案"},{"start":7366.94,"end":7368.94,"text":"還是因為有人遞案"},{"start":7368.94,"end":7370.94,"text":"但是你們覺得還不夠好"},{"start":7370.94,"end":7372.94,"text":"所以沒有往下發展"},{"start":7372.94,"end":7374.94,"text":"包委員我請處長幫忙回答"},{"start":7375.73,"end":7377.73,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7377.08,"end":7379.08,"text":"報告委員 有關於性評跟兒少的部分"},{"start":7379.08,"end":7383.08,"text":"確實提案的團隊比較少"},{"start":7383.08,"end":7385.08,"text":"但有關於勞動的部分"},{"start":7385.08,"end":7387.08,"text":"應該在其中有關於"},{"start":7387.08,"end":7389.08,"text":"媒體那個部分應該會涉及"},{"start":7389.08,"end":7391.08,"text":"有關於那個 就運動相關的勞動產業"},{"start":7391.08,"end":7393.08,"text":"好 那我想"},{"start":7393.08,"end":7395.08,"text":"確實很有可能就是"},{"start":7395.08,"end":7397.08,"text":"我們猜對了嘛 比較少人提案"},{"start":7397.08,"end":7399.08,"text":"但是我想國科會應該有一個角度可以做"},{"start":7399.08,"end":7401.08,"text":"我們可以去找相關的學者"},{"start":7401.08,"end":7403.08,"text":"鼓勵他們在來年當中可以持續提案"},{"start":7403.08,"end":7405.08,"text":"那你們可以有更多政策上的鼓勵"},{"start":7405.08,"end":7407.08,"text":"我們把兒少全因還有運動性評"},{"start":7407.08,"end":7409.08,"text":"納入 可以嗎"},{"start":7409.08,"end":7411.08,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7411.08,"end":7413.08,"text":"再來一題 就是前兩天"},{"start":7413.08,"end":7415.08,"text":"有一個台師大體操隊"},{"start":7415.08,"end":7417.08,"text":"歐師行教練的霸凌性評事件"},{"start":7417.08,"end":7419.08,"text":"謝謝 我就不再說"},{"start":7419.08,"end":7421.08,"text":"但我知道歐教練他有申請一個國科會"},{"start":7421.08,"end":7423.08,"text":"的題目叫做完美翻騰精準論地"},{"start":7423.08,"end":7425.08,"text":"科學化競技體操訓練跟監控"},{"start":7425.08,"end":7427.08,"text":"我現在不確定在他這個研究案當中"},{"start":7427.08,"end":7429.08,"text":"有沒有利用這個"},{"start":7429.08,"end":7431.08,"text":"研究案獲得相關研究成果"},{"start":7431.08,"end":7433.08,"text":"但是這中間有一些關於學生的"},{"start":7433.08,"end":7435.08,"text":"參與的部分是不當處置對待的"},{"start":7435.08,"end":7437.08,"text":"目前國科會有沒有去掌握這個研究案的進度"},{"start":7437.08,"end":7439.08,"text":"跟相關我剛剛所提出的問題"},{"start":7442.9,"end":7444.9,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7444.9,"end":7446.9,"text":"翁老師他目前所執行的計畫"},{"start":7446.9,"end":7448.9,"text":"都是在18歲以上"},{"start":7448.9,"end":7450.9,"text":"的這個"},{"start":7450.9,"end":7452.9,"text":"作為對象"},{"start":7452.9,"end":7454.9,"text":"我們都確認過其實他目前這些計畫"},{"start":7454.9,"end":7456.9,"text":"都有通過這個"},{"start":7456.9,"end":7458.9,"text":"IRB"},{"start":7458.9,"end":7460.9,"text":"是 但目前我們"},{"start":7460.9,"end":7462.9,"text":"並沒有獲得說這裡頭"},{"start":7462.9,"end":7464.9,"text":"是不是有不當詮釋的"},{"start":7464.9,"end":7466.9,"text":"這個的意見的反應"},{"start":7466.9,"end":7468.9,"text":"好 如果就18歲以上的部分"},{"start":7468.9,"end":7470.9,"text":"大概就避開了所謂小師大"},{"start":7470.9,"end":7472.9,"text":"所以也有做了IRB的部分"},{"start":7472.9,"end":7474.9,"text":"但是我想如果未來"},{"start":7474.9,"end":7476.9,"text":"沒有聽到任何他如果在這過程當中"},{"start":7476.9,"end":7478.9,"text":"對於18歲以上的選手的一些"},{"start":7478.9,"end":7480.9,"text":"不當對待結果被納入了"},{"start":7480.9,"end":7482.9,"text":"變成這個研究的一部分我想國科會還是要"},{"start":7482.9,"end":7484.9,"text":"持續關注 所以我想關於"},{"start":7484.9,"end":7486.9,"text":"剛剛我們希望可以推動下一張"},{"start":7486.9,"end":7488.9,"text":"推動關於運動當中的"},{"start":7488.9,"end":7490.9,"text":"運動性評的研究"},{"start":7490.9,"end":7492.9,"text":"兒童的研究就拜託國科會持續支持"},{"start":7492.9,"end":7494.9,"text":"並且多加推廣希望有更多的"},{"start":7494.9,"end":7496.9,"text":"專家學者可以來提案"},{"start":7496.9,"end":7498.9,"text":"再來就是校園中各項學術研究計畫"},{"start":7498.9,"end":7500.9,"text":"如果有不當對待詮釋壓迫取得的研究素材"},{"start":7500.9,"end":7502.9,"text":"也要拜託國科會這邊嚴謹把關"},{"start":7502.9,"end":7504.9,"text":"那如果有相關的報告跟進度"},{"start":7504.9,"end":7506.9,"text":"再拜託提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":7506.9,"end":7508.9,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":7508.9,"end":7510.9,"text":"好 那最後要拜託"},{"start":7510.9,"end":7512.9,"text":"那個國科會關於我剛剛講的資料"},{"start":7512.9,"end":7514.9,"text":"的部分我們一起努力喔"},{"start":7514.9,"end":7516.9,"text":"我想不管是速發部或國科會"},{"start":7516.9,"end":7518.9,"text":"我們確實要在內容國家對這件事情"},{"start":7518.9,"end":7520.9,"text":"加緊腳步"},{"start":7520.9,"end":7522.9,"text":"我舉一個最近的例子也好"},{"start":7522.9,"end":7524.9,"text":"現在有非常多台灣人會用"},{"start":7526.29,"end":7528.29,"text":"AI模型做影片"},{"start":7528.5,"end":7530.5,"text":"做的可能是講台灣的故事喔"},{"start":7530.5,"end":7532.5,"text":"結果他用的聲音啊很無奈"},{"start":7532.5,"end":7534.5,"text":"是"},{"start":7535.67,"end":7537.67,"text":"另外一種"},{"start":7536.99,"end":7538.99,"text":"是中國的聲音中國的發音喔"},{"start":7538.99,"end":7540.99,"text":"而且那個說法其實令人聽了"},{"start":7540.99,"end":7542.99,"text":"很多人都覺得天啊為什麼AI"},{"start":7542.99,"end":7544.99,"text":"會給我這個聲音很簡單"},{"start":7544.99,"end":7546.99,"text":"因為現在很多AI語言模型上"},{"start":7546.99,"end":7548.99,"text":"其實沒有台灣人的聲音"},{"start":7548.99,"end":7550.99,"text":"所以我想兩位都非常清楚我們一起努力"},{"start":7550.99,"end":7552.99,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7553.21,"end":7555.21,"text":"好 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欸對不起我的螢幕不見了"},{"start":7598.15,"end":7600.15,"text":"時間暫停一下"},{"start":7602.03,"end":7604.03,"text":"請稍等一會"},{"start":7604.9,"end":7606.9,"text":"今天我們站在這裡喔 謝謝"},{"start":7608.27,"end":7610.27,"text":"謝謝我們召委所安排的"},{"start":7610.27,"end":7612.27,"text":"因為各國都在研發"},{"start":7612.27,"end":7614.27,"text":"主權AI的策略"},{"start":7614.27,"end":7616.27,"text":"為了要確保人工智慧的"},{"start":7616.27,"end":7618.27,"text":"技術自主性"},{"start":7618.27,"end":7620.27,"text":"而且要減少對國外的"},{"start":7620.27,"end":7622.27,"text":"依賴 也因此"},{"start":7622.27,"end":7624.27,"text":"維護國家經濟成長"},{"start":7624.27,"end":7626.27,"text":"經濟發展以及國家安全的"},{"start":7626.27,"end":7628.27,"text":"利益 所以我們今天站在"},{"start":7628.27,"end":7630.27,"text":"這裡 PING AI"},{"start":7630.27,"end":7632.27,"text":"台灣要組成國家隊"},{"start":7632.27,"end":7634.27,"text":"以小搏大 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我過去2023年"},{"start":8066.66,"end":8068.66,"text":"我當時的質詢"},{"start":8068.66,"end":8070.66,"text":"我們換寡也換不均"},{"start":8070.66,"end":8072.66,"text":"在整個文本的採用"},{"start":8072.66,"end":8074.66,"text":"所以數量少的文本"},{"start":8074.66,"end":8076.66,"text":"而且領域不夠多元"},{"start":8076.66,"end":8078.66,"text":"當時都側重在某些科技的領域"},{"start":8078.66,"end":8080.66,"text":"在我不斷的要求之下"},{"start":8080.66,"end":8082.66,"text":"我謝謝你們"},{"start":8082.66,"end":8084.66,"text":"在把文化 我最關心文化藝術"},{"start":8084.66,"end":8086.66,"text":"國家文化記憶庫"},{"start":8086.66,"end":8088.66,"text":"在文化部門的這些部分"},{"start":8088.66,"end":8090.66,"text":"現在就是擴充再擴充"},{"start":8090.66,"end":8092.66,"text":"但是我也看到問題"},{"start":8092.66,"end":8094.66,"text":"下一頁 我先問中研院"},{"start":8094.66,"end":8096.66,"text":"我們這個Tide的系統"},{"start":8096.66,"end":8098.66,"text":"到現在我看到的應用端"},{"start":8098.66,"end":8100.66,"text":"還是限於公務跟學術為主"},{"start":8100.66,"end":8102.66,"text":"我們有沒有更大的雄心壯志"},{"start":8102.66,"end":8104.66,"text":"我們讓全社會的普及應用"},{"start":8104.66,"end":8106.66,"text":"商用的可能性"},{"start":8106.66,"end":8108.66,"text":"而且"},{"start":8108.66,"end":8110.66,"text":"我們也希望能夠"},{"start":8110.66,"end":8112.66,"text":"讓全社會的公務"},{"start":8112.66,"end":8114.66,"text":"商用的可能性"},{"start":8114.66,"end":8116.66,"text":"而且"},{"start":8112.35,"end":8114.35,"text":"多平台的使用"},{"start":8114.35,"end":8116.35,"text":"我們有沒有這樣子的雄心壯志"},{"start":8116.35,"end":8118.35,"text":"好 五位 我們這部分請我們院內"},{"start":8118.35,"end":8120.35,"text":"參與Tide的同仁來回答"},{"start":8121.07,"end":8123.07,"text":"是 各位你好"},{"start":8123.07,"end":8125.07,"text":"最主要是這樣"},{"start":8125.07,"end":8127.07,"text":"我們現在要發展"},{"start":8127.07,"end":8129.07,"text":"現在要大大的應用的話"},{"start":8129.07,"end":8131.07,"text":"百工百藥都要用的話"},{"start":8131.07,"end":8133.07,"text":"必須要是一個多模態的"},{"start":8133.07,"end":8135.07,"text":"一個Foundation Model"},{"start":8135.07,"end":8137.07,"text":"那現在我其實中研院"},{"start":8137.07,"end":8139.07,"text":"因為主委有指示"},{"start":8139.07,"end":8141.07,"text":"副主委說要辦一個AI Team Taiwan"},{"start":8141.07,"end":8143.07,"text":"那因為那樣行政程序太麻煩了"},{"start":8143.07,"end":8145.07,"text":"所以我們現在在Tide的計畫下面"},{"start":8145.07,"end":8147.07,"text":"成立一個這樣的小組"},{"start":8147.07,"end":8149.07,"text":"對 包括聲音"},{"start":8149.07,"end":8151.07,"text":"然後影像"},{"start":8151.07,"end":8153.07,"text":"影像視訊"},{"start":8153.05,"end":8155.05,"text":"然後再加上原來的語言"},{"start":8155.05,"end":8157.05,"text":"我們把這些東西結合起來"},{"start":8157.05,"end":8159.05,"text":"這樣的話他的應用面就會非常廣"},{"start":8159.05,"end":8161.05,"text":"因為當我在AGE端能夠"},{"start":8161.05,"end":8163.05,"text":"處理行為的時候"},{"start":8163.05,"end":8165.05,"text":"我就可以把它放到AGE端去處理"},{"start":8165.05,"end":8167.05,"text":"老人家的跌倒啊什麼這些問題"},{"start":8167.05,"end":8169.05,"text":"或者是居家四周圍的安全"},{"start":8169.05,"end":8171.05,"text":"維護"},{"start":8171.06,"end":8173.06,"text":"很多東西都可以用"},{"start":8173.06,"end":8175.06,"text":"包括醫生在病房裡面的"},{"start":8175.06,"end":8177.06,"text":"這些手術"},{"start":8177.06,"end":8179.06,"text":"那我當然知道我們擴大應用"},{"start":8179.06,"end":8181.06,"text":"結合團隊"},{"start":8181.06,"end":8183.06,"text":"但是我剛剛說的那個宏觀的目標"},{"start":8183.06,"end":8185.06,"text":"就往這個方向來努力吧"},{"start":8185.06,"end":8187.06,"text":"全社會的普及"},{"start":8187.06,"end":8189.06,"text":"這個就是要讓它普及到全社會"},{"start":8189.06,"end":8191.06,"text":"但是我們Foundation Model是最困難的"},{"start":8191.06,"end":8193.060000000001,"text":"我知道很困難"},{"start":8193.060000000001,"end":8195.060000000001,"text":"但我還是要說出我們要有這個雄心壯志"},{"start":8195.060000000001,"end":8197.060000000001,"text":"右手邊我在講的是"},{"start":8197.060000000001,"end":8199.060000000001,"text":"速發步"},{"start":8199.06,"end":8201.06,"text":"這個台灣主權AI的訓練語料"},{"start":8201.06,"end":8203.06,"text":"酷"},{"start":8203.06,"end":8205.06,"text":"剛剛你們已經也揭露了"},{"start":8205.06,"end":8207.06,"text":"國際的大型語言的模型"},{"start":8207.06,"end":8209.06,"text":"Google已經主動跟我們接觸了"},{"start":8209.06,"end":8211.06,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8211.06,"end":8213.06,"text":"那其他的呢"},{"start":8213.06,"end":8215.06,"text":"OpenAI Cloud"},{"start":8215.06,"end":8217.06,"text":"Entropic Cloud公司"},{"start":8217.06,"end":8219.06,"text":"我們都已經接觸了"},{"start":8219.06,"end":8221.06,"text":"我們主動好嗎"},{"start":8221.06,"end":8223.06,"text":"我們就是在跟對岸比賽"},{"start":8223.06,"end":8225.06,"text":"今天至少知道"},{"start":8225.06,"end":8227.06,"text":"Google已經接觸"},{"start":8227.06,"end":8229.06,"text":"所以我們就先把這個東西好好的深化跟推廣"},{"start":8229.06,"end":8231.06,"text":"最後一個"},{"start":8231.06,"end":8233.06,"text":"速發步有這一個AI產品"},{"start":8233.06,"end":8235.06,"text":"跟系統的評測中心"},{"start":8235.06,"end":8237.06,"text":"我們依據了三個指標"},{"start":8237.06,"end":8239.06,"text":"台灣價值觀"},{"start":8239.06,"end":8241.06,"text":"學測的社會科跟國文科"},{"start":8241.06,"end":8243.06,"text":"來評估現在有的這些系統"},{"start":8243.06,"end":8245.06,"text":"依它的準確性"},{"start":8245.06,"end":8247.06,"text":"可靠性公平性資安"},{"start":8247.06,"end":8249.06,"text":"跟隱私"},{"start":8249.06,"end":8251.06,"text":"你們上路到現在已經檢測了"},{"start":8251.06,"end":8253.06,"text":"62個小模型"},{"start":8253.06,"end":8255.06,"text":"58個大模型"},{"start":8255.06,"end":8257.06,"text":"那我問一下"},{"start":8257.06,"end":8259.06,"text":"Ti的實在是相當具有進步的空間"},{"start":8259.82,"end":8261.82,"text":"我就看台灣價值觀"},{"start":8262.47,"end":8264.47,"text":"我們當然要贏啊"},{"start":8264.34,"end":8266.34,"text":"可是我們還不是"},{"start":8266,"end":8268,"text":"最好的"},{"start":8267.19,"end":8269.19,"text":"甚至在國文科跟社會科的這個評鑑裡頭"},{"start":8269.19,"end":8271.19,"text":"我們都還"},{"start":8271.19,"end":8273.19,"text":"輸給中國的系統"},{"start":8273.19,"end":8275.19,"text":"當然也輸給這些國際的"},{"start":8275.19,"end":8277.19,"text":"大的原資料庫"},{"start":8277.19,"end":8279.19,"text":"原資料的模型"},{"start":8279.19,"end":8281.19,"text":"誰"},{"start":8281.19,"end":8283.19,"text":"速發步可以來說一下吧"},{"start":8283.19,"end":8285.19,"text":"在這個評測裡頭Ti的"},{"start":8285.19,"end":8287.19,"text":"可以給我們一些進步面向的"},{"start":8288.95,"end":8290.95,"text":"建議嗎"},{"start":8290.89,"end":8292.89,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":8320.89,"end":8322.89,"text":"速發步有一個問題"},{"start":8322.89,"end":8324.89,"text":"你們評測的時間點跟公佈"},{"start":8324.89,"end":8326.89,"text":"有一點不公平你知道嗎"},{"start":8326.89,"end":8328.89,"text":"你們沒有把評測的時間"},{"start":8328.89,"end":8330.89,"text":"因為有的是前面評測跟後面評測"},{"start":8330.89,"end":8332.89,"text":"都擺在一起的時候"},{"start":8332.89,"end":8334.89,"text":"我也覺得可能對Ti的會"},{"start":8334.89,"end":8336.89,"text":"有一點不公平啊"},{"start":8336.89,"end":8338.89,"text":"我們會改進"},{"start":8338.89,"end":8340.89,"text":"我覺得至少既然是一個評測"},{"start":8340.89,"end":8342.89,"text":"它在各方面的公平"},{"start":8342.89,"end":8344.89,"text":"跟各方面它的評測時間"},{"start":8344.89,"end":8346.89,"text":"這些基準都要拉齊"},{"start":8346.89,"end":8348.89,"text":"否則確實會造成某些"},{"start":8348.89,"end":8350.89,"text":"我覺得可能也對Ti的系統的"},{"start":8350.89,"end":8352.89,"text":"這些同仁可能也有一點不公平"},{"start":8352.89,"end":8354.89,"text":"當然我們也看到了"},{"start":8354.89,"end":8356.89,"text":"為什麼我的命題叫做台灣要"},{"start":8356.89,"end":8358.89,"text":"以小破大"},{"start":8358.89,"end":8360.89,"text":"我們就從我們能做的強項"},{"start":8360.89,"end":8362.89,"text":"下手也是剛剛"},{"start":8362.89,"end":8364.89,"text":"中原院的副院長一開始所說的"},{"start":8364.89,"end":8366.89,"text":"我們的語言資料庫裡頭"},{"start":8366.89,"end":8368.89,"text":"我們的內容文本裡面"},{"start":8368.89,"end":8370.89,"text":"能夠多有一些"},{"start":8370.89,"end":8372.89,"text":"台灣社會可以提供給"},{"start":8372.89,"end":8374.89,"text":"全球的自由多元"},{"start":8374.89,"end":8376.89,"text":"民主這些台灣價值的"},{"start":8376.89,"end":8378.89,"text":"這些面向"},{"start":8378.89,"end":8380.89,"text":"這就是我們能贏的關鍵"},{"start":8380.89,"end":8382.89,"text":"所以今天時間非常有限"},{"start":8382.89,"end":8384.89,"text":"不好意思我也拖到了一些時間"},{"start":8384.89,"end":8386.89,"text":"軟體硬體都重要"},{"start":8386.89,"end":8388.89,"text":"但最重要的是立法院的預算"},{"start":8388.89,"end":8390.89,"text":"趕快審查趕快通過AI新十大建設"},{"start":8390.89,"end":8392.89,"text":"311億我們一定要朝野"},{"start":8392.89,"end":8394.89,"text":"共同來支持謝謝"},{"start":8395.48,"end":8397.48,"text":"謝謝五四一委員的質詢"},{"start":8397.48,"end":8399.48,"text":"請官員回座我們現在"},{"start":8399.48,"end":8401.48,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":8711.71,"end":8713.71,"text":"好我們現在有請"},{"start":8713.71,"end":8715.71,"text":"吳佩奕委員進行詢答"},{"start":8721.62,"end":8723.62,"text":"謝謝主席我請述發部國科會"},{"start":8725.4,"end":8727.4,"text":"請述發部國科會到備詢台"},{"start":8734.55,"end":8736.55,"text":"首先請教述發部"},{"start":8736.55,"end":8738.55,"text":"市長這幾天高德地圖"},{"start":8738.55,"end":8740.55,"text":"引起了很多的討論"},{"start":8740.55,"end":8742.55,"text":"那述發部也有做了公開的回應"},{"start":8742.55,"end":8744.55,"text":"對於公部門"},{"start":8744.55,"end":8746.55,"text":"跟國軍禁用高德地圖"},{"start":8746.55,"end":8748.55,"text":"我是相當支持"},{"start":8748.55,"end":8750.55,"text":"因為我認為至少有兩點"},{"start":8750.55,"end":8752.55,"text":"隱憂第一個"},{"start":8752.55,"end":8754.55,"text":"高德地圖他的定位使用的是"},{"start":8754.55,"end":8756.55,"text":"中國的北斗衛星系統"},{"start":8756.55,"end":8758.55,"text":"第二個目前中國的法律"},{"start":8758.55,"end":8760.55,"text":"是要求民間公司"},{"start":8760.55,"end":8762.55,"text":"要來配合政府"},{"start":8762.55,"end":8764.55,"text":"收集資料"},{"start":8764.55,"end":8766.55,"text":"這對台灣來說是相當大的風險"},{"start":8766.55,"end":8768.55,"text":"那剛剛前面"},{"start":8768.55,"end":8770.55,"text":"柯志恩委員在質詢的時候"},{"start":8770.55,"end":8772.55,"text":"他要求你們對於"},{"start":8772.55,"end":8774.55,"text":"各國各種的軟體系統"},{"start":8774.55,"end":8776.55,"text":"App應該標準"},{"start":8776.55,"end":8778.55,"text":"要一視同仁我反對"},{"start":8778.55,"end":8780.55,"text":"因為中國的這些"},{"start":8780.55,"end":8782.55,"text":"系統軟體App他因為"},{"start":8782.55,"end":8784.55,"text":"中國法律的關係"},{"start":8784.55,"end":8786.55,"text":"其實對台灣來說是有特別"},{"start":8786.55,"end":8788.55,"text":"高的風險所以"},{"start":8788.55,"end":8790.55,"text":"當然不能一視同仁反倒"},{"start":8790.55,"end":8792.55,"text":"我們應該要專案的來"},{"start":8792.55,"end":8794.55,"text":"審慎應對"},{"start":8794.55,"end":8796.55,"text":"那我先請國科會可以來協助"},{"start":8796.55,"end":8798.55,"text":"說明中國的北斗"},{"start":8798.55,"end":8800.55,"text":"衛星系統這個是"},{"start":8800.55,"end":8802.55,"text":"什麼樣的系統"},{"start":8803.56,"end":8805.56,"text":"各位報告就我們了解這應該是"},{"start":8805.56,"end":8807.56,"text":"比較類似於GPS的定位系統"},{"start":8808.49,"end":8810.49,"text":"對GPS的定位系統"},{"start":8810.49,"end":8812.49,"text":"那麼這個就是中國自主"},{"start":8812.49,"end":8814.49,"text":"發展的衛星系統"},{"start":8814.49,"end":8816.49,"text":"那麼他新一代的導航系統"},{"start":8816.49,"end":8818.49,"text":"代表了中國他們在太空"},{"start":8818.49,"end":8820.49,"text":"領域上面一個很戰略性"},{"start":8820.49,"end":8822.49,"text":"的突破那麼除了"},{"start":8822.49,"end":8824.49,"text":"民用之外很重要的是"},{"start":8824.49,"end":8826.49,"text":"他包括了軍用"},{"start":8826.99,"end":8828.99,"text":"我們看到台灣其實我們軍方"},{"start":8828.99,"end":8830.99,"text":"相關的研究單位做了很多"},{"start":8830.99,"end":8832.99,"text":"的研究像國防安全"},{"start":8832.99,"end":8834.99,"text":"研究院的資料告訴我們說"},{"start":8834.99,"end":8836.99,"text":"北斗衛星系統從"},{"start":8836.99,"end":8838.99,"text":"研發開始就是"},{"start":8838.99,"end":8840.99,"text":"中共解放軍"},{"start":8840.99,"end":8842.99,"text":"總參謀部"},{"start":8843.34,"end":8845.34,"text":"的參與跟支持"},{"start":8845.34,"end":8847.34,"text":"中共的官媒更直接說"},{"start":8847.34,"end":8849.34,"text":"北斗的軍事"},{"start":8849.34,"end":8851.34,"text":"應用是最迫切"},{"start":8851.34,"end":8853.34,"text":"的需求例如"},{"start":8853.34,"end":8855.34,"text":"洲際飛彈無人機或智慧"},{"start":8855.34,"end":8857.34,"text":"水雷我們台灣的"},{"start":8857.34,"end":8859.34,"text":"國防大學黃埔學報"},{"start":8859.34,"end":8861.34,"text":"也有一個研究裡面提到"},{"start":8861.34,"end":8863.34,"text":"中國的北斗"},{"start":8863.34,"end":8865.34,"text":"導航系統的建立他"},{"start":8865.34,"end":8867.34,"text":"相當於是什麼中共"},{"start":8867.34,"end":8869.34,"text":"在太空中建構了"},{"start":8869.34,"end":8871.34,"text":"一套"},{"start":8870.51,"end":8872.51,"text":"偵測的平台有利於"},{"start":8872.51,"end":8874.51,"text":"中共執行各種的"},{"start":8874.51,"end":8876.51,"text":"作戰任務來破除"},{"start":8876.51,"end":8878.51,"text":"戰爭的迷霧也就是戰爭當中"},{"start":8878.51,"end":8880.51,"text":"假設GPS被破壞了"},{"start":8880.51,"end":8882.51,"text":"大家看不到"},{"start":8882.51,"end":8884.51,"text":"但是中國因為有北斗衛星"},{"start":8884.51,"end":8886.51,"text":"系統他們看得到他們有眼睛"},{"start":8888.38,"end":8890.38,"text":"那麼中國為了加速北斗衛星的發展"},{"start":8890.38,"end":8892.38,"text":"他不只是"},{"start":8893.49,"end":8895.49,"text":"這一套系統而已他們甚至打造了"},{"start":8895.49,"end":8897.49,"text":"北斗產業鏈"},{"start":8897.49,"end":8899.49,"text":"在中國的工業和資訊化"},{"start":8899.49,"end":8901.49,"text":"部在2022年他們發表聲明"},{"start":8901.49,"end":8903.49,"text":"就說了依照中共的黨"},{"start":8903.49,"end":8905.49,"text":"中央國務院的決策部署"},{"start":8905.49,"end":8907.49,"text":"要將大眾的消費"},{"start":8907.49,"end":8909.49,"text":"領域打造成北斗規模化"},{"start":8909.49,"end":8911.49,"text":"應用的動力引擎並且他們"},{"start":8911.49,"end":8913.49,"text":"要培育20家以上"},{"start":8913.49,"end":8915.49,"text":"的企業樹立一批"},{"start":8915.49,"end":8917.49,"text":"應用的典型樣板"},{"start":8917.49,"end":8919.49,"text":"也就是說民生消費的應用"},{"start":8919.49,"end":8921.49,"text":"也是我們剛剛講的中國"},{"start":8921.49,"end":8923.49,"text":"這一套北斗衛星發展"},{"start":8923.49,"end":8925.49,"text":"他重要的引擎"},{"start":8925.49,"end":8927.49,"text":"而我們剛剛講的高德地圖"},{"start":8927.49,"end":8929.49,"text":"就是在北斗"},{"start":8929.49,"end":8931.49,"text":"衛星的產業鏈"},{"start":8931.49,"end":8933.49,"text":"中國的紅色軍事"},{"start":8933.49,"end":8935.49,"text":"產業鏈當中剛剛講的"},{"start":8935.49,"end":8937.49,"text":"20家以上的企業"},{"start":8937.49,"end":8939.49,"text":"所培育的其中一家"},{"start":8940.2,"end":8942.2,"text":"所以我要講的是"},{"start":8942.2,"end":8944.2,"text":"這個高德地圖"},{"start":8943.91,"end":8945.91,"text":"我們真的要謹慎來看待"},{"start":8947.39,"end":8949.39,"text":"那麼這個部分"},{"start":8949.39,"end":8951.39,"text":"當然有國防部跟國安會"},{"start":8951.39,"end":8953.39,"text":"有些部分是他們要處理的"},{"start":8953.39,"end":8955.39,"text":"但今天因為是速發部的備詢"},{"start":8955.39,"end":8957.39,"text":"所以我們還是要回到技術跟資安"},{"start":8957.39,"end":8959.39,"text":"來請教"},{"start":8959.39,"end":8961.39,"text":"那麼現在這個高德地圖"},{"start":8961.39,"end":8963.39,"text":"顯然他是要回傳他的定位資訊"},{"start":8963.39,"end":8965.39,"text":"技術上這一些的定位資訊"},{"start":8965.39,"end":8967.39,"text":"他如果把它整合起來"},{"start":8967.39,"end":8969.39,"text":"比如說使用者如果夠多的話"},{"start":8969.39,"end":8971.39,"text":"他是不是有可能可以用來分析"},{"start":8971.39,"end":8973.39,"text":"我們台灣人的生活樣態"},{"start":8973.39,"end":8975.39,"text":"例如說你的車流、人流"},{"start":8975.39,"end":8977.39,"text":"行為的分析等等的"},{"start":8977.39,"end":8979.39,"text":"他有沒有可能做這樣子的運用分析"},{"start":8979.39,"end":8981.39,"text":"就是就他能夠取得的資料"},{"start":8981.39,"end":8983.39,"text":"確實是有可能"},{"start":8983.39,"end":8985.39,"text":"不僅是整體的社會的樣態"},{"start":8985.39,"end":8987.39,"text":"甚至到個別用戶的生活形態"},{"start":8987.39,"end":8989.39,"text":"我們認為都是會有風險的"},{"start":8989.39,"end":8991.39,"text":"是"},{"start":8991.39,"end":8993.39,"text":"那這個"},{"start":8994.44,"end":8996.44,"text":"他收集的資料本身有風險"},{"start":8996.44,"end":8998.44,"text":"那剛剛我們講的"},{"start":8998.44,"end":9000.44,"text":"要依據中國的法律嘛"},{"start":9000.44,"end":9002.44,"text":"他們的網路安全法、他們的國家情報法"},{"start":9002.44,"end":9004.44,"text":"任何組織公民他是依法"},{"start":9004.44,"end":9006.44,"text":"他必須要提供這些資料給中國的政府"},{"start":9006.44,"end":9008.44,"text":"所以我們是非常的擔心"},{"start":9008.44,"end":9010.44,"text":"因為在中國就算高德地圖"},{"start":9010.44,"end":9012.44,"text":"他是隸屬於阿里巴巴集團"},{"start":9012.44,"end":9014.44,"text":"但是就連馬雲"},{"start":9014.08,"end":9016.08,"text":"就連馬雲"},{"start":9016.08,"end":9018.08,"text":"他近年在中國都遭受政府強烈的打壓"},{"start":9018.08,"end":9020.08,"text":"中國的企業可以說是"},{"start":9020.08,"end":9022.08,"text":"沒有自由可言"},{"start":9022.08,"end":9024.08,"text":"所以當然我們要特別謹慎來去看待"},{"start":9024.08,"end":9026.08,"text":"那所以第一步我們現在要釐清的是"},{"start":9026.08,"end":9028.08,"text":"他到底會回傳哪些資訊"},{"start":9028.08,"end":9030.08,"text":"那速發部資安署說"},{"start":9030.08,"end":9032.08,"text":"我們會來進行資安的檢測"},{"start":9032.08,"end":9034.08,"text":"我們目前會檢測的項目"},{"start":9034.08,"end":9036.08,"text":"有哪些呢"},{"start":9036.08,"end":9038.08,"text":"就會檢測的項目"},{"start":9038.08,"end":9040.08,"text":"包括敏感性的資訊"},{"start":9040.08,"end":9042.08,"text":"那這些檢測項目我是不是請"},{"start":9042.08,"end":9044.08,"text":"資安署的副署長來說明"},{"start":9046.57,"end":9048.57,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9048.57,"end":9050.57,"text":"這個高德地圖目前已經送資安院"},{"start":9050.57,"end":9052.57,"text":"在檢測當中"},{"start":9052.57,"end":9054.57,"text":"那預計五月會出來"},{"start":9054.57,"end":9056.57,"text":"那剛委員所詢詢的檢測哪些"},{"start":9056.57,"end":9058.57,"text":"項目包含說"},{"start":9058.57,"end":9060.57,"text":"他即時是讀取哪些資料"},{"start":9060.57,"end":9062.57,"text":"或者是他越過"},{"start":9062.57,"end":9064.57,"text":"當初使用者允許的"},{"start":9064.57,"end":9066.57,"text":"權限他就再去"},{"start":9066.57,"end":9068.57,"text":"翻看通話紀錄或者是其他"},{"start":9068.57,"end":9070.57,"text":"甚至健康紀錄等等"},{"start":9070.57,"end":9072.57,"text":"那再來還有是"},{"start":9072.57,"end":9074.57,"text":"衛生金授權他會不會把這些資料"},{"start":9074.57,"end":9076.57,"text":"就傳到了境外"},{"start":9076.57,"end":9078.57,"text":"這是中國的伺服器"},{"start":9078.57,"end":9080.57,"text":"剛剛委員有提到那既然是"},{"start":9080.57,"end":9082.57,"text":"傳到中國的伺服器就"},{"start":9082.57,"end":9084.57,"text":"歸中國的法律來管"},{"start":9084.57,"end":9086.57,"text":"那有可能就可以取用到我們人民的"},{"start":9086.57,"end":9088.57,"text":"生活軌跡資料"},{"start":9088.57,"end":9090.57,"text":"那除了這些之外我覺得還有一項"},{"start":9090.57,"end":9092.57,"text":"比較重要的是這個設備"},{"start":9092.57,"end":9094.57,"text":"的裝置每個"},{"start":9094.57,"end":9096.57,"text":"手機裡面可能會有一些"},{"start":9096.57,"end":9098.57,"text":"ID那這些ID也可能"},{"start":9098.57,"end":9100.57,"text":"會被做記號"},{"start":9100.57,"end":9102.57,"text":"有下載過這些APP的民眾"},{"start":9102.57,"end":9104.57,"text":"他有可能就被註記了"},{"start":9104.57,"end":9106.57,"text":"所以簡單來說就是我們會"},{"start":9106.57,"end":9108.57,"text":"檢測有沒有偷看使用者"},{"start":9108.57,"end":9110.57,"text":"的資料有沒有偷翻"},{"start":9110.57,"end":9112.57,"text":"使用者的資料其他APP或"},{"start":9112.57,"end":9114.57,"text":"其他儲存裝置"},{"start":9114.57,"end":9116.57,"text":"裡面的或者是偷送"},{"start":9116.57,"end":9118.57,"text":"資料出去最後才有被"},{"start":9118.57,"end":9120.57,"text":"做記號這樣子的行為我們"},{"start":9120.57,"end":9122.57,"text":"會去做檢測所以他是有可能"},{"start":9122.57,"end":9124.57,"text":"偷看偷翻甚至註記"},{"start":9124.57,"end":9126.57,"text":"等等有可能有這樣風險存在"},{"start":9126.57,"end":9128.57,"text":"是那因為這個是"},{"start":9128.57,"end":9130.57,"text":"資安的專業就要拜託"},{"start":9130.57,"end":9132.57,"text":"你們依專業來進行檢測"},{"start":9132.57,"end":9134.57,"text":"那如同我們剛剛所提到的"},{"start":9134.57,"end":9136.57,"text":"因為中國跟世界上其他民主國家"},{"start":9136.57,"end":9138.57,"text":"都不一樣他的法律規定"},{"start":9138.57,"end":9140.57,"text":"對台灣來說有特別高的風險"},{"start":9140.57,"end":9142.57,"text":"所以請你們一定要特別謹慎"},{"start":9142.57,"end":9144.57,"text":"來去對待那尤其是"},{"start":9144.57,"end":9146.57,"text":"這個書長謝謝這個尤其是"},{"start":9146.57,"end":9148.57,"text":"近期還有一案這個目前"},{"start":9148.57,"end":9150.57,"text":"也排不到書發布現在在公平會在審"},{"start":9150.57,"end":9152.57,"text":"就是中國的外送平台"},{"start":9152.57,"end":9154.57,"text":"Grab他想要透過"},{"start":9154.57,"end":9156.57,"text":"併購的方式想要進入台灣"},{"start":9157.37,"end":9159.37,"text":"哇這個真的是讓人相當的擔憂"},{"start":9159.37,"end":9161.37,"text":"已經有民間團體在分析"},{"start":9161.37,"end":9163.37,"text":"因為Grab他是外送平台"},{"start":9163.37,"end":9165.37,"text":"他未來如果是數百萬的"},{"start":9165.37,"end":9167.37,"text":"外送員跟司機"},{"start":9167.37,"end":9169.37,"text":"然後透過這個GPS的軌跡及時"},{"start":9169.37,"end":9171.37,"text":"回報他就可以持續的去"},{"start":9171.37,"end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{"start":9383.19,"end":9385.19,"text":"可以試試看"},{"start":9385.19,"end":9387.19,"text":"那我大概先問三個問題"},{"start":9387.19,"end":9389.19,"text":"就是難度一顆星"},{"start":9389.19,"end":9391.19,"text":"兩顆星三顆星這樣可以嗎"},{"start":9391.19,"end":9393.19,"text":"好第一個問題"},{"start":9394.26,"end":9396.26,"text":"我先說為什麼我要這樣問"},{"start":9396.44,"end":9398.44,"text":"因為在28年前1998年"},{"start":9400.32,"end":9402.32,"text":"我們有原住民族教育法的立法"},{"start":9404.47,"end":9406.47,"text":"那麼到了2019年"},{"start":9406.47,"end":9408.47,"text":"做了一次大的修法"},{"start":9409.78,"end":9411.78,"text":"其中很重要的一個改變"},{"start":9411.78,"end":9413.78,"text":"就是把實施的對象"},{"start":9413.78,"end":9415.78,"text":"從過去的原住民學生"},{"start":9415.78,"end":9417.78,"text":"把它變成全體國民"},{"start":9417.78,"end":9419.78,"text":"就是因為我們覺得"},{"start":9419.78,"end":9421.78,"text":"在台灣"},{"start":9421.78,"end":9423.78,"text":"這個小小多山的國家"},{"start":9423.78,"end":9425.78,"text":"我們發現呢"},{"start":9425.78,"end":9427.78,"text":"其實我們對身邊周遭的原住民族群"},{"start":9427.78,"end":9429.78,"text":"不是很認識"},{"start":9429.78,"end":9431.78,"text":"很了解"},{"start":9431.78,"end":9433.78,"text":"那推動以來呢"},{"start":9433.78,"end":9435.78,"text":"其實也許有一些長足的進步"},{"start":9435.78,"end":9437.78,"text":"但是我們還是有一些物質的進步"},{"start":9437.78,"end":9439.78,"text":"但是我們還是有一些問題"},{"start":9439.78,"end":9441.78,"text":"想要就教大家"},{"start":9441.78,"end":9443.78,"text":"首先喔"},{"start":9443.78,"end":9445.78,"text":"請教一下"},{"start":9445.85,"end":9447.85,"text":"8月1日是什麼日"},{"start":9449.41,"end":9451.41,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9450.59,"end":9452.59,"text":"這難度一顆"},{"start":9453.71,"end":9455.71,"text":"好"},{"start":9454.92,"end":9456.92,"text":"都不行"},{"start":9456.92,"end":9458.92,"text":"好原住民族日"},{"start":9458.92,"end":9460.92,"text":"那第二題請教一下"},{"start":9460.92,"end":9462.92,"text":"為什麼會把8月1號"},{"start":9462.92,"end":9464.92,"text":"定定為原住民族日"},{"start":9469.57,"end":9471.57,"text":"也不行喔"},{"start":9471.23,"end":9473.23,"text":"因為1994年的8月1號"},{"start":9473.23,"end":9475.23,"text":"憲法增修條文"},{"start":9475.23,"end":9477.23,"text":"把山包"},{"start":9478.75,"end":9480.75,"text":"證明為原住民"},{"start":9480.75,"end":9482.75,"text":"所以把這一天定為"},{"start":9482.75,"end":9484.75,"text":"原住民族日"},{"start":9484.75,"end":9486.75,"text":"是作為一個紀念日"},{"start":9486.75,"end":9488.75,"text":"好那第三題喔"},{"start":9488.75,"end":9490.75,"text":"可能"},{"start":9489.91,"end":9491.91,"text":"定"},{"start":9490.9,"end":9492.9,"text":"各位的AI軟體都沒有辦法找到答案"},{"start":9492.9,"end":9494.9,"text":"因為我試過"},{"start":9495.61,"end":9497.61,"text":"第三個問題就是要請教"},{"start":9497.61,"end":9499.61,"text":"日本人來台灣"},{"start":9499.74,"end":9503.74,"text":"最後一個進入的部落是哪一個部落"},{"start":9505.95,"end":9507.95,"text":"有沒有民"},{"start":9507.95,"end":9509.95,"text":"那個民族所的"},{"start":9509.95,"end":9511.95,"text":"民族所"},{"start":9511.95,"end":9513.95,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":9513.58,"end":9515.58,"text":"不好意思因為那個我自己不是研究原住民族的"},{"start":9515.58,"end":9517.58,"text":"我不太清楚這個事情"},{"start":9517.58,"end":9519.58,"text":"好"},{"start":9519.58,"end":9521.58,"text":"所以我們的原"},{"start":9522.34,"end":9524.34,"text":"全體國民的原教"},{"start":9524.34,"end":9526.34,"text":"還是有一大段"},{"start":9526.34,"end":9528.34,"text":"要努力的"},{"start":9528.34,"end":9530.34,"text":"我想這個部分是"},{"start":9530.34,"end":9532.34,"text":"我覺得蠻悲傷的"},{"start":9532.34,"end":9534.34,"text":"真的蠻悲傷"},{"start":9534.34,"end":9536.34,"text":"因為我們可能知道美國怎麼樣"},{"start":9536.34,"end":9538.34,"text":"可能知道中國怎麼樣"},{"start":9538.34,"end":9540.34,"text":"但是我們對身邊的"},{"start":9540.34,"end":9542.34,"text":"這些原住民族群的文化"},{"start":9542.34,"end":9544.34,"text":"歷史語言甚至是人"},{"start":9544.34,"end":9546.34,"text":"可能有很多的不認識"},{"start":9546.34,"end":9548.34,"text":"那我就直接"},{"start":9548.34,"end":9550.34,"text":"回答這一題的答案喔"},{"start":9550.34,"end":9552.34,"text":"所以AI絕對找不到"},{"start":9552.34,"end":9554.34,"text":"是1933年"},{"start":9554.34,"end":9556.34,"text":"接受昭祥的玉碎社"},{"start":9556.34,"end":9558.34,"text":"玉碎社是不農族"},{"start":9558.34,"end":9560.34,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":9560.34,"end":9562.34,"text":"日本人最後一個"},{"start":9563.35,"end":9565.35,"text":"舒服的"},{"start":9564.8,"end":9566.8,"text":"其實是不農族"},{"start":9567.38,"end":9569.38,"text":"而且是接受昭祥"},{"start":9569.93,"end":9571.93,"text":"因為打不下來"},{"start":9572.68,"end":9574.68,"text":"那玉碎在哪裡呢"},{"start":9575.87,"end":9577.87,"text":"就是前幾年非常有名"},{"start":9579.19,"end":9581.19,"text":"有一條小小的玉碎溪"},{"start":9581.93,"end":9585.93,"text":"竟然把明霸克路橋沖斷了"},{"start":9586.43,"end":9588.43,"text":"南橫斷"},{"start":9587.95,"end":9589.95,"text":"也就是現在高雄桃園那個地方"},{"start":9591.8,"end":9593.8,"text":"那這個地方"},{"start":9593.8,"end":9595.8,"text":"其實也有一位很有名的"},{"start":9595.8,"end":9597.8,"text":"文學作家"},{"start":9597.99,"end":9599.99,"text":"他是誰呢"},{"start":9599.78,"end":9601.78,"text":"他叫"},{"start":9601.78,"end":9603.78,"text":"以前我們還不能夠原住民族名登記的時候"},{"start":9603.78,"end":9605.78,"text":"他叫王興明老師"},{"start":9605.78,"end":9607.78,"text":"他是國小老師"},{"start":9608.22,"end":9610.22,"text":"現在已經過世"},{"start":9610.11,"end":9612.11,"text":"但是他恢復族名呢"},{"start":9612.11,"end":9614.11,"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care的計劃"},{"start":9984.6,"end":9986.6,"text":"所以我想問一下鍾延遠"},{"start":9987.44,"end":9989.44,"text":"未來像民主所的博物館"},{"start":9989.44,"end":9991.44,"text":"可以開放讓這些原住民的學者"},{"start":9991.44,"end":9995.44,"text":"一起申請合作研究部落文物嗎"},{"start":9995.99,"end":9997.99,"text":"有了中英民主所"},{"start":9997.99,"end":9999.99,"text":"一直有辦工作展的展示"},{"start":9999.99,"end":10001.99,"text":"過去收集文物"},{"start":10001.99,"end":10003.99,"text":"回到部落去再重新做展示"},{"start":10003.99,"end":10005.99,"text":"現在已經辦到第六屆了"},{"start":10005.99,"end":10007.99,"text":"我們還有原住民部落的講座"},{"start":10007.99,"end":10009.99,"text":"研究講座都有"},{"start":10009.99,"end":10011.99,"text":"補助原住民的"},{"start":10011.99,"end":10013.99,"text":"原住民組的研究生"},{"start":10013.99,"end":10015.99,"text":"我們都有長期補助的計劃"},{"start":10015.99,"end":10017.99,"text":"這是我們一直在執行在做的"},{"start":10017.99,"end":10019.99,"text":"我們也擴展學校這方面"},{"start":10019.99,"end":10021.99,"text":"能夠更擴大實作的範圍"},{"start":10021.99,"end":10023.99,"text":"您說的這些我都了解"},{"start":10023.99,"end":10025.99,"text":"但是我覺得"},{"start":10025.99,"end":10027.99,"text":"我舉個例子來講"},{"start":10027.99,"end":10029.99,"text":"像我們的主領住"},{"start":10031.23,"end":10033.23,"text":"某個部落因為大家談"},{"start":10033.23,"end":10035.23,"text":"要文物返鄉"},{"start":10035.23,"end":10037.23,"text":"但是都做半套"},{"start":10037.23,"end":10039.23,"text":"可能第一次的文物返鄉"},{"start":10039.23,"end":10041.23,"text":"是來一個什麼呢"},{"start":10041.23,"end":10043.23,"text":"結婚"},{"start":10043.65,"end":10045.65,"text":"讓這個主領住跟你們結婚"},{"start":10046.99,"end":10048.99,"text":"第二次的時候是結親結伴"},{"start":10051.49,"end":10055.49,"text":"其實在原住民來看很客氣"},{"start":10056.44,"end":10058.44,"text":"但是我們不是不知道"},{"start":10059.24,"end":10063.24,"text":"我們也了解那個不是尊嚴平等對待的做法"},{"start":10063.56,"end":10067.56,"text":"所以我想這個部分剛才講的我都了解"},{"start":10067.56,"end":10069.56,"text":"但是我們是希望"},{"start":10069.11,"end":10071.11,"text":"平等共同的"},{"start":10071.11,"end":10073.11,"text":"一同的來分享利益"},{"start":10073.11,"end":10075.11,"text":"然後能夠做到FPIC"},{"start":10075.11,"end":10077.11,"text":"自由事前之前同意"},{"start":10077.11,"end":10079.11,"text":"這個是已經是"},{"start":10079.11,"end":10081.11,"text":"聯合國全世界"},{"start":10081.11,"end":10083.11,"text":"一個很普遍的標準"},{"start":10083.11,"end":10085.11,"text":"我希望我們的學術界"},{"start":10085.11,"end":10087.11,"text":"能夠共同的來做"},{"start":10087.11,"end":10089.11,"text":"所以我今天其實來最主要就是說"},{"start":10089.11,"end":10091.11,"text":"為什麼我們需要"},{"start":10091.11,"end":10093.11,"text":"原住民族的研究學門"},{"start":10093.11,"end":10095.11,"text":"因為原住民族研究不等於原住民"},{"start":10095.11,"end":10097.11,"text":"做出來的研究"},{"start":10097.11,"end":10099.11,"text":"大家都可以做"},{"start":10098.81,"end":10100.81,"text":"而且原住民族研究的方法論"},{"start":10100.81,"end":10102.81,"text":"跟研究倫理"},{"start":10102.81,"end":10104.81,"text":"其實是沒有辦法在目前"},{"start":10104.81,"end":10106.81,"text":"任何學門沒有辦法"},{"start":10107.86,"end":10109.86,"text":"有這樣的規範去含納"},{"start":10111.16,"end":10113.16,"text":"所以它是一個很獨特的"},{"start":10113.16,"end":10115.16,"text":"所以我們一直強調"},{"start":10115.16,"end":10117.16,"text":"我們希望成為一個正式的學門"},{"start":10117.16,"end":10119.16,"text":"然後國家常態性的"},{"start":10119.16,"end":10121.16,"text":"科研分類具有正式的"},{"start":10121.16,"end":10123.16,"text":"學術地位長期穩定的"},{"start":10123.16,"end":10125.16,"text":"基礎研究的資金投入"},{"start":10125.16,"end":10127.16,"text":"然後透過嚴格的同儕審查"},{"start":10127.16,"end":10129.16,"text":"產生客觀正確"},{"start":10129.16,"end":10131.16,"text":"可用於AI訓練的"},{"start":10131.16,"end":10133.16,"text":"系統性知識"},{"start":10133.16,"end":10135.16,"text":"提供AI這個大水庫"},{"start":10135.16,"end":10137.16,"text":"乾淨的水源"},{"start":10137.16,"end":10139.16,"text":"因為我們不希望AI複製"},{"start":10139.16,"end":10141.16,"text":"歧視複製錯誤"},{"start":10141.16,"end":10143.16,"text":"這個是我們今天為什麼特別"},{"start":10143.16,"end":10145.16,"text":"要在這邊來請我們的中研院"},{"start":10145.16,"end":10147.16,"text":"請國科會請書發布"},{"start":10147.16,"end":10149.16,"text":"我們是不是共同的"},{"start":10149.16,"end":10151.16,"text":"來成立一個平台"},{"start":10151.16,"end":10153.16,"text":"就我剛才所談的"},{"start":10153.16,"end":10155.16,"text":"學門還有關於"},{"start":10155.16,"end":10157.16,"text":"在我們建置AI"},{"start":10157.16,"end":10159.16,"text":"餘料庫的時候原住民"},{"start":10159.16,"end":10161.16,"text":"不能被邊緣化"},{"start":10160.99,"end":10162.99,"text":"我們很多的乾淨的資料"},{"start":10162.99,"end":10164.99,"text":"水庫正確的"},{"start":10164.99,"end":10166.99,"text":"我希望都能夠把它建置起來"},{"start":10166.99,"end":10168.99,"text":"那不曉得這個部分"},{"start":10168.99,"end":10170.99,"text":"有沒有辦法三個月內"},{"start":10170.99,"end":10172.99,"text":"給我你們的一個平台"},{"start":10172.99,"end":10174.99,"text":"討論的一個成果"},{"start":10178.02,"end":10180.02,"text":"好 我們三個月內提供報告 謝謝"},{"start":10189.56,"end":10191.56,"text":"預計要怎麼做"},{"start":10191.56,"end":10193.56,"text":"要怎麼投入資源經費這樣可以嗎"},{"start":10194.07,"end":10196.07,"text":"好"},{"start":10194.86,"end":10196.86,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10196.86,"end":10198.86,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10198.31,"end":10200.31,"text":"好 謝謝吳立華 趙薇"},{"start":10200.31,"end":10202.31,"text":"好 三位請回"},{"start":10209.02,"end":10213.02,"text":"好 接下來有請蔡春筹委員進行詢答"},{"start":10226.34,"end":10228.34,"text":"主席"},{"start":10228.28,"end":10230.28,"text":"各位同仁大家好"},{"start":10230.28,"end":10232.28,"text":"有請"},{"start":10232.28,"end":10234.28,"text":"三個部會的代表"},{"start":10234.28,"end":10236.28,"text":"好 請三個部會"},{"start":10236.28,"end":10238.28,"text":"機關代表上備巡台"},{"start":10247.71,"end":10249.71,"text":"不能走"},{"start":10250.71,"end":10252.71,"text":"三位代表大家好"},{"start":10252.71,"end":10254.71,"text":"今天我要針對"},{"start":10254.71,"end":10256.71,"text":"AI暗潮中的"},{"start":10256.71,"end":10258.71,"text":"產業結構"},{"start":10258.71,"end":10260.71,"text":"與人文深度"},{"start":10260.71,"end":10262.71,"text":"失衡的一個問題"},{"start":10262.71,"end":10264.71,"text":"提出質詢"},{"start":10264.71,"end":10266.71,"text":"首先我們請國科會的副主委"},{"start":10266.71,"end":10268.71,"text":"副主委"},{"start":10268.71,"end":10270.71,"text":"我在先前在經濟部"},{"start":10270.71,"end":10272.71,"text":"在做質詢的時候"},{"start":10272.71,"end":10274.71,"text":"曾經有說過"},{"start":10274.71,"end":10276.71,"text":"執行過運動產業"},{"start":10276.71,"end":10278.71,"text":"那我們台灣的運動產業"},{"start":10278.71,"end":10280.71,"text":"就是球拍球鞋"},{"start":10280.71,"end":10282.71,"text":"或者是說"},{"start":10282.71,"end":10284.71,"text":"自行車的出口的殘值"},{"start":10284.71,"end":10286.71,"text":"就是全球明媚全茅的"},{"start":10286.71,"end":10288.71,"text":"但是"},{"start":10288.71,"end":10290.71,"text":"我們談到AI"},{"start":10290.71,"end":10292.71,"text":"跟軟體應用的時候"},{"start":10292.71,"end":10294.71,"text":"情況"},{"start":10294.71,"end":10296.71,"text":"讓人非常非常的失望"},{"start":10296.71,"end":10298.71,"text":"目前的一個情況是"},{"start":10298.71,"end":10300.71,"text":"政府投入了大量的"},{"start":10300.71,"end":10302.71,"text":"預算來做AI的一個"},{"start":10302.71,"end":10304.71,"text":"補助計畫"},{"start":10304.71,"end":10306.71,"text":"但是結案之後"},{"start":10306.71,"end":10308.71,"text":"政府沒有看到一堆的研究報告成果"},{"start":10308.71,"end":10310.71,"text":"那"},{"start":10310.71,"end":10312.71,"text":"卻沒有看到具體的出口產值"},{"start":10312.71,"end":10314.71,"text":"那反觀"},{"start":10314.71,"end":10316.71,"text":"來自中國大陸"},{"start":10316.71,"end":10318.71,"text":"一個高德地"},{"start":10318.71,"end":10320.71,"text":"地圖的APP"},{"start":10320.71,"end":10322.71,"text":"近期在台灣的市場"},{"start":10322.71,"end":10324.71,"text":"引起了先南大波"},{"start":10324.71,"end":10326.71,"text":"他們憑藉著紅藝燈"},{"start":10326.71,"end":10328.71,"text":"倒數"},{"start":10328.71,"end":10330.71,"text":"還有車道的一個導航"},{"start":10330.71,"end":10332.71,"text":"就已經"},{"start":10332.71,"end":10334.71,"text":"有非常強大的"},{"start":10334.71,"end":10336.71,"text":"AI的演算法"},{"start":10336.71,"end":10338.71,"text":"直接衝擊了我們對"},{"start":10338.71,"end":10340.71,"text":"對岸的一個軟體的"},{"start":10340.71,"end":10342.71,"text":"發展跟導航的一個軟體"},{"start":10342.71,"end":10344.71,"text":"智慧的這樣的一個思維"},{"start":10344.71,"end":10346.71,"text":"那我要請教"},{"start":10346.71,"end":10348.71,"text":"副主委的看法"},{"start":10348.71,"end":10350.71,"text":"上週總執行的時候"},{"start":10350.71,"end":10352.71,"text":"國會他們說"},{"start":10352.71,"end":10354.71,"text":"他們有信心做的"},{"start":10354.71,"end":10356.71,"text":"比高德還要好那國科會"},{"start":10356.71,"end":10358.71,"text":"你的看法呢"},{"start":10361.43,"end":10363.43,"text":"好包容我們也"},{"start":10363.43,"end":10365.43,"text":"其實我們除了學術界"},{"start":10365.43,"end":10367.43,"text":"在推動AI的研發之外"},{"start":10367.43,"end":10369.43,"text":"我們也很積極的推動"},{"start":10369.43,"end":10371.43,"text":"學術界跟產業的合作"},{"start":10371.43,"end":10373.43,"text":"希望能夠推動AI到"},{"start":10373.43,"end":10375.43,"text":"百工百業去"},{"start":10375.43,"end":10377.43,"text":"所以這個地方其實我們是真的很努力在"},{"start":10377.43,"end":10379.43,"text":"積極在推動當中"},{"start":10379.43,"end":10381.43,"text":"我們也很有信心"},{"start":10381.43,"end":10383.43,"text":"以台灣目前的人才跟產業的"},{"start":10383.43,"end":10385.43,"text":"狀況應該是有機會可以走的到"},{"start":10385.43,"end":10387.43,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10387.43,"end":10389.43,"text":"我們期待我們可以看到我們軟體的一個產值"},{"start":10389.43,"end":10391.43,"text":"最主要是說我們"},{"start":10391.43,"end":10393.43,"text":"我們國家已經投入"},{"start":10393.43,"end":10395.43,"text":"這樣的一個金會"},{"start":10395.43,"end":10397.43,"text":"不少但是我們希望能夠看到"},{"start":10397.43,"end":10399.43,"text":"跟硬體一樣的那些"},{"start":10399.43,"end":10401.43,"text":"量力的一個產值"},{"start":10401.43,"end":10403.43,"text":"所以這個是我很擔心的就是說"},{"start":10406.97,"end":10408.97,"text":"為什麼別人能夠把AI做成"},{"start":10408.97,"end":10410.97,"text":"全世界有感的一個APP的"},{"start":10410.97,"end":10412.97,"text":"跟軟體服務那我們"},{"start":10412.97,"end":10414.97,"text":"剩下我們都是在寫一些"},{"start":10414.97,"end":10416.97,"text":"程式那看到一些"},{"start":10416.97,"end":10418.97,"text":"結果報告所以呢"},{"start":10418.97,"end":10420.97,"text":"我們台灣不要一直"},{"start":10420.97,"end":10422.97,"text":"停留在製造業的"},{"start":10422.97,"end":10424.97,"text":"一個思維只會做"},{"start":10424.97,"end":10426.97,"text":"AI晶片的一個伺服器"},{"start":10426.97,"end":10428.97,"text":"然後呢而且沒有辦法"},{"start":10428.97,"end":10430.97,"text":"自己做一個軟體的靈魂"},{"start":10430.97,"end":10432.97,"text":"那我們永遠就是"},{"start":10432.97,"end":10434.97,"text":"只做別人的一個代工廠"},{"start":10434.97,"end":10436.97,"text":"那副主委你的看法呢"},{"start":10439.1,"end":10441.1,"text":"各位報告的確是這樣"},{"start":10441.1,"end":10443.1,"text":"所以我們也是很積極在推動"},{"start":10443.1,"end":10445.1,"text":"培育系統人才"},{"start":10445.1,"end":10447.1,"text":"培育更高端的這個"},{"start":10447.1,"end":10449.1,"text":"應用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速發部侯怡秀"},{"start":10869.72,"end":10871.72,"text":"次長 中研院"},{"start":10871.72,"end":10873.72,"text":"彭信坤副院長"},{"start":10873.72,"end":10875.72,"text":"好請三個機關代表上"},{"start":10875.72,"end":10877.72,"text":"備裙台"},{"start":10879.46,"end":10881.46,"text":"多人好"},{"start":10881.97,"end":10883.97,"text":"揮達執行長黃仁勳表示"},{"start":10883.97,"end":10885.97,"text":"各國必須擁有"},{"start":10885.97,"end":10887.97,"text":"獨立的AI基礎建設"},{"start":10887.97,"end":10889.97,"text":"重要性已經超越"},{"start":10889.97,"end":10891.97,"text":"發展原子彈"},{"start":10891.97,"end":10893.97,"text":"他認為建立AI基礎建設對國家而言"},{"start":10893.97,"end":10895.97,"text":"是絕對必要"},{"start":10895.97,"end":10897.97,"text":"是贏得全球競賽的關鍵"},{"start":10897.97,"end":10899.97,"text":"那全球至少"},{"start":10899.97,"end":10901.97,"text":"已經有20個國家"},{"start":10901.97,"end":10903.97,"text":"著手推動主權AI"},{"start":10903.97,"end":10905.97,"text":"那台灣當然不能缺席"},{"start":10905.97,"end":10907.97,"text":"所以本席先肯定兩件事情"},{"start":10907.97,"end":10909.97,"text":"第一"},{"start":10909.97,"end":10911.97,"text":"國科會的國網雲端"},{"start":10911.97,"end":10913.97,"text":"算力中心"},{"start":10913.97,"end":10915.97,"text":"要打造主權AI的算力基礎"},{"start":10915.97,"end":10917.97,"text":"這一步本來就應該要做"},{"start":10917.97,"end":10919.97,"text":"也算是走在前面"},{"start":10919.97,"end":10921.97,"text":"這是第一個要肯定"},{"start":10921.97,"end":10923.97,"text":"那第二個 中研院跟"},{"start":10923.97,"end":10925.97,"text":"速發部合作要釋出超過"},{"start":10925.97,"end":10927.97,"text":"620萬"},{"start":10927.97,"end":10929.97,"text":"資源的研究與"},{"start":10929.97,"end":10931.97,"text":"科普文本來上架"},{"start":10931.97,"end":10933.97,"text":"台灣主權AI訓練"},{"start":10933.97,"end":10935.97,"text":"與料庫也願意把多年"},{"start":10935.97,"end":10937.97,"text":"累積的學術成果拿出來"},{"start":10937.97,"end":10939.97,"text":"資源本土訓練模式"},{"start":10939.97,"end":10941.97,"text":"這一點我也覺得肯定"},{"start":10941.97,"end":10943.97,"text":"但我們也看到黃仁勳執行長"},{"start":10943.97,"end":10945.97,"text":"他提出的五層蛋糕理論"},{"start":10945.97,"end":10947.97,"text":"最底層就是電力"},{"start":10947.97,"end":10949.97,"text":"那AI運作"},{"start":10949.97,"end":10951.97,"text":"都要電力"},{"start":10951.97,"end":10953.97,"text":"那能源是萬物之機"},{"start":10953.97,"end":10955.97,"text":"所以決定AI系統"},{"start":10955.97,"end":10957.97,"text":"產出多少智慧的根本"},{"start":10957.97,"end":10959.97,"text":"就是電力"},{"start":10959.97,"end":10961.97,"text":"那"},{"start":10961.6,"end":10963.6,"text":"AI時代算力就是國力"},{"start":10963.6,"end":10965.6,"text":"那我想要請教一下"},{"start":10965.6,"end":10967.6,"text":"台灣現在能源結構"},{"start":10967.6,"end":10969.6,"text":"足以支應AI"},{"start":10969.6,"end":10971.6,"text":"發展所需要的龐大電力嗎"},{"start":10973.21,"end":10975.21,"text":"評估過嗎"},{"start":10975.22,"end":10977.22,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":10977.22,"end":10979.22,"text":"在我們國網中心所建置的"},{"start":10979.22,"end":10981.22,"text":"算力中心當中"},{"start":10981.22,"end":10983.22,"text":"我們其實都有做電力的評估"},{"start":10983.22,"end":10985.22,"text":"那基本上是OK的"},{"start":10985.22,"end":10987.22,"text":"是OK的 我看到你們"},{"start":10987.22,"end":10989.22,"text":"等於是短短三年間"},{"start":10989.22,"end":10991.22,"text":"AI算力"},{"start":10991.22,"end":10993.22,"text":"台中院的報告"},{"start":10993.22,"end":10995.22,"text":"台灣目前有36座資料中心"},{"start":10995.22,"end":10997.22,"text":"那"},{"start":10997.22,"end":10999.22,"text":"三年內"},{"start":10999.22,"end":11001.22,"text":"AI的算力中心的電力"},{"start":11001.22,"end":11003.22,"text":"負載規模將是目前的7.5倍"},{"start":11003.22,"end":11005.22,"text":"所以把這些都算進去"},{"start":11005.22,"end":11007.22,"text":"你仍然覺得電力是夠的"},{"start":11009.31,"end":11011.31,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":11011.31,"end":11013.31,"text":"在國科會掌握的部分當中"},{"start":11013.31,"end":11015.31,"text":"我們其實都有做盤電"},{"start":11015.31,"end":11017.31,"text":"那如果核電"},{"start":11017.31,"end":11019.31,"text":"沒有重啟夠嗎"},{"start":11019.42,"end":11021.42,"text":"也有評估嗎"},{"start":11022.61,"end":11024.61,"text":"這評估是把核電重啟算進去"},{"start":11024.61,"end":11026.61,"text":"還是沒算進去"},{"start":11026.61,"end":11028.61,"text":"各位報告因為我們等算力中心"},{"start":11028.61,"end":11030.61,"text":"之前在建置的時候"},{"start":11030.61,"end":11032.61,"text":"應該是在"},{"start":11033.02,"end":11035.02,"text":"之前沙崙的"},{"start":11035.02,"end":11037.02,"text":"還沒有把核電重啟這件事情考慮進去"},{"start":11037.02,"end":11039.02,"text":"其實就已經是夠的"},{"start":11039.02,"end":11041.02,"text":"就夠的"},{"start":11041.02,"end":11043.02,"text":"所以我們現在政府"},{"start":11043.02,"end":11045.02,"text":"在計算電力的過程當中"},{"start":11045.02,"end":11047.02,"text":"想要重啟核三核電"},{"start":11047.02,"end":11049.02,"text":"因為缺電不包括我們AI算力的部分"},{"start":11051.56,"end":11053.56,"text":"電當然是大水庫"},{"start":11053.56,"end":11055.56,"text":"也沒有說什麼"},{"start":11055.56,"end":11057.56,"text":"你的電夠不夠"},{"start":11057.56,"end":11059.56,"text":"也不是說我們的電力"},{"start":11059.56,"end":11061.56,"text":"跟AI算力就夠了"},{"start":11061.56,"end":11063.56,"text":"AI算力是佔電力大餅的一部分"},{"start":11063.56,"end":11065.56,"text":"所以我覺得國科會還是要"},{"start":11065.56,"end":11067.56,"text":"整個去評估"},{"start":11067.56,"end":11069.56,"text":"不是說你現在去看電力規模"},{"start":11069.56,"end":11071.56,"text":"而是去評估整體電力成長"},{"start":11071.56,"end":11073.56,"text":"包括AI電力成長"},{"start":11073.56,"end":11075.56,"text":"加進來的狀況"},{"start":11075.76,"end":11077.76,"text":"要是根據實際的狀況"},{"start":11077.76,"end":11079.76,"text":"來去評估"},{"start":11079.76,"end":11081.76,"text":"好那麼接下來我想請教一下"},{"start":11081.76,"end":11083.76,"text":"去年底"},{"start":11083.76,"end":11085.76,"text":"在YouTube的影片當中"},{"start":11085.76,"end":11087.76,"text":"有一個有萬人訂閱的"},{"start":11087.76,"end":11089.76,"text":"陳志明醫師"},{"start":11089.76,"end":11091.76,"text":"他宣稱"},{"start":11090.71,"end":11092.71,"text":"北龍跟台大醫院發現"},{"start":11092.71,"end":11094.71,"text":"糖尿病的致病元兇"},{"start":11094.71,"end":11096.71,"text":"而且要用革命性的細菌療法"},{"start":11096.71,"end":11098.71,"text":"就可以治癒"},{"start":11098.71,"end":11100.71,"text":"那另外也有影片在網路流傳"},{"start":11100.71,"end":11102.71,"text":"台大醫院"},{"start":11102.71,"end":11104.71,"text":"肺癌的全威醫師"},{"start":11104.71,"end":11106.71,"text":"推薦一款可逆轉肺功能的藥物"},{"start":11106.71,"end":11108.71,"text":"以及社群平台上"},{"start":11108.71,"end":11110.71,"text":"出現長庚知名中醫"},{"start":11110.71,"end":11112.71,"text":"推薦宣稱"},{"start":11112.71,"end":11114.71,"text":"可以改善糖尿病及四肢水腫藥物的廣告"},{"start":11114.71,"end":11116.71,"text":"三種眼科明醫"},{"start":11116.71,"end":11118.71,"text":"推薦"},{"start":11118.71,"end":11120.71,"text":"三種眼科明醫"},{"start":11120.71,"end":11122.71,"text":"推薦眼藥水"},{"start":11122.71,"end":11124.71,"text":"我想請教我們抒發部的侯次長"},{"start":11124.71,"end":11126.71,"text":"我剛剛講這些影片"},{"start":11126.71,"end":11128.71,"text":"你知道有什麼跟廣告什麼共通之處嗎"},{"start":11130.44,"end":11134.44,"text":"就是以專門職業去進行廣告嗎"},{"start":11135.03,"end":11137.03,"text":"這些都算鬧的"},{"start":11137.03,"end":11139.03,"text":"大家都沸沸揚揚"},{"start":11139.03,"end":11141.03,"text":"抒發部也要稍微了解一下"},{"start":11141.03,"end":11143.03,"text":"實際現在的狀況"},{"start":11143.03,"end":11145.03,"text":"都是AI生成的"},{"start":11145.03,"end":11147.03,"text":"我剛剛講都是AI生成的"},{"start":11147.03,"end":11149.03,"text":"以身為的假人或假冒的名人"},{"start":11149.03,"end":11151.03,"text":"傳播不實訊息"},{"start":11151.03,"end":11153.03,"text":"甚至賣假藥詐騙"},{"start":11153.03,"end":11155.03,"text":"那知道隨著人工智慧的"},{"start":11155.03,"end":11157.03,"text":"日益發展"},{"start":11157.03,"end":11159.03,"text":"AI生成內容真的已經快"},{"start":11159.03,"end":11161.03,"text":"越來越真偽難辨了"},{"start":11161.03,"end":11163.03,"text":"那很容易讓人物誤信為真"},{"start":11163.03,"end":11165.03,"text":"我看到對岸"},{"start":11165.03,"end":11167.03,"text":"在去年九月有強制規定"},{"start":11167.03,"end":11171.03,"text":"所有AI生成的文字圖片影音的內容"},{"start":11171.03,"end":11173.03,"text":"都必須包括顯示標示"},{"start":11173.03,"end":11175.03,"text":"以及影視標示"},{"start":11175.03,"end":11181.03,"text":"那平台在服務提供者的內容上架或上線時要進行審核"},{"start":11181.03,"end":11183.03,"text":"檢驗生成合成內容的標示"},{"start":11183.03,"end":11185.03,"text":"否則就要加風險提示"},{"start":11185.03,"end":11187.03,"text":"我想請教次長"},{"start":11187.03,"end":11191.03,"text":"針對這種AI生成內容的身為影像"},{"start":11191.03,"end":11195.03,"text":"書發部能不能訂出標示指引"},{"start":11195.03,"end":11197.03,"text":"那具體要怎麼做"},{"start":11197.03,"end":11201.03,"text":"怎麼樣提高內容來源的透明跟辨識性"},{"start":11201.03,"end":11203.03,"text":"來降低這些身為影片AI影片"},{"start":11203.03,"end":11207.03,"text":"對於公共跟社會安全的危害"},{"start":11207.03,"end":11209.03,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11209.03,"end":11215.03,"text":"就是身為影片或說生成式的影片的標註"},{"start":11215.03,"end":11217.03,"text":"或生成式內容的標註"},{"start":11217.03,"end":11221.03,"text":"我們現在已經在研議這個指引"},{"start":11221.03,"end":11227.03,"text":"就是也同時在跟各個平台來做這個討論"},{"start":11227.03,"end":11233.03,"text":"就是在技術方面能夠做到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":11233.03,"end":11235.03,"text":"就現在這個狀況"},{"start":11235.03,"end":11237.03,"text":"現在的技術水準可以做到什麼程度"},{"start":11237.03,"end":11241.03,"text":"然後包括了剛剛您提到的這個顯性的標示"},{"start":11241.03,"end":11243.03,"text":"還有影性的標示"},{"start":11243.03,"end":11249.03,"text":"那也包括後面跟平台如果有發現是有偽造"},{"start":11249.03,"end":11251.03,"text":"而且造成損害的狀況的話"},{"start":11251.03,"end":11253.03,"text":"需要怎麼樣子的處理機制"},{"start":11253.03,"end":11257.03,"text":"這個我們都已經在進行當中"},{"start":11257.03,"end":11263.03,"text":"我是希望我們書發部還有相關單位腳步要加快"},{"start":11263.03,"end":11269.03,"text":"因為AI生成的身為技術已經被廣泛運用在造假炸雞蛋用行為當中"},{"start":11269.03,"end":11273.03,"text":"那你可以看到過去沒有AI技術"},{"start":11273.03,"end":11277.03,"text":"詐騙已經猖獗到這種程度越來越棘手"},{"start":11277.03,"end":11279.03,"text":"那現在有AI助力更是如虎添翼"},{"start":11279.03,"end":11285.03,"text":"所以要拜託書發部跟相關機關心力儲備的措施腳步緊加快"},{"start":11285.03,"end":11287.03,"text":"好 謝謝大家"},{"start":11288.32,"end":11290.32,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的質詢"},{"start":11290.32,"end":11292.32,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":11292.94,"end":11296.94,"text":"接下來有請羅廷瑋趙委進行詢答"},{"start":11302.04,"end":11304.04,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11304.04,"end":11306.04,"text":"有請郭各位陳秉宇副主委"},{"start":11306.68,"end":11308.68,"text":"中研院彭副院長"},{"start":11310.21,"end":11312.21,"text":"書發部"},{"start":11311.81,"end":11313.81,"text":"頭儀秀次長"},{"start":11313.81,"end":11314.81,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11314.81,"end":11316.81,"text":"請三個機關代表"},{"start":11317.62,"end":11319.62,"text":"羅廷瑋"},{"start":11319.44,"end":11320.44,"text":"好 早安"},{"start":11320.44,"end":11322.44,"text":"首先先請教副主委"},{"start":11322.44,"end":11324.44,"text":"用AI生成的文字"},{"start":11324.44,"end":11326.44,"text":"國際期刊目前是否接受投稿"},{"start":11329.52,"end":11333.52,"text":"此外國際間針對AI生成的內容"},{"start":11333.52,"end":11337.52,"text":"用於學術、研究、論文、發表"},{"start":11337.52,"end":11340.52,"text":"是否已經有相關規範或通行標準"},{"start":11341.7,"end":11343.7,"text":"請搜尋 中文字幕組"},{"start":11343.05,"end":11346.05,"text":"目前應該是沒有相關標準"},{"start":11346.05,"end":11348.05,"text":"好 郭各位今天的書面報告的內容"},{"start":11348.05,"end":11351.05,"text":"著重於說明推動AI的研發"},{"start":11351.05,"end":11353.05,"text":"還有這個科研上的應用效益"},{"start":11353.05,"end":11355.05,"text":"然而就本次專案報告"},{"start":11355.05,"end":11359.05,"text":"所聚焦的AI研究應用的一個倫理"},{"start":11359.05,"end":11361.05,"text":"我們這個議題"},{"start":11361.05,"end":11363.05,"text":"中文院今日的書面報告第六頁"},{"start":11363.05,"end":11365.05,"text":"其實也有相當明確的說明"},{"start":11365.05,"end":11367.05,"text":"報告寫呢"},{"start":11367.05,"end":11370.05,"text":"針對運用AI從事學術研究"},{"start":11370.05,"end":11373.05,"text":"以及發表所申的研究倫理"},{"start":11373.05,"end":11375.05,"text":"以及學術倫理的一個問題"},{"start":11375.05,"end":11378.05,"text":"目前面臨的主要課題就是"},{"start":11378.05,"end":11380.05,"text":"除了訂定參考指引"},{"start":11380.05,"end":11382.05,"text":"等建議性的規範外"},{"start":11382.05,"end":11384.05,"text":"如何研究、適用"},{"start":11384.05,"end":11386.05,"text":"以及既有相關倫理的規範"},{"start":11386.05,"end":11392.05,"text":"例如在指引以要求落實揭露的基礎上"},{"start":11392.05,"end":11396.05,"text":"使用AI生成的文章是否應該揭露"},{"start":11396.05,"end":11400.05,"text":"內容大量使用AI生成的研究成果"},{"start":11400.05,"end":11402.05,"text":"是否構成抄襲"},{"start":11402.65,"end":11407.65,"text":"相關機關是否要針對AI訂定新的行為規範"},{"start":11407.65,"end":11409.65,"text":"以供遵循"},{"start":11410.04,"end":11412.04,"text":"我想這個部分"},{"start":11412.04,"end":11417.04,"text":"副院長請問您這裡相關的機關指的是有誰"},{"start":11417.04,"end":11419.04,"text":"我想跟各位報告"},{"start":11419.04,"end":11422.04,"text":"我們中研已經在開始落實"},{"start":11422.04,"end":11424.04,"text":"任何一個研究計畫送上來"},{"start":11424.04,"end":11428.04,"text":"我們都有辦法用AI目前的軟體去偵測"},{"start":11428.04,"end":11431.04,"text":"到底是有多少部分是AI生成"},{"start":11431.04,"end":11434.04,"text":"多少部分是AI改寫的"},{"start":11434.04,"end":11437.04,"text":"那我們都會進一步去追蹤"},{"start":11437.04,"end":11439.04,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":11439.04,"end":11443.04,"text":"相關機關要針對AI制定新的規範"},{"start":11443.04,"end":11445.04,"text":"你認為是哪個相關機關嗎"},{"start":11445.04,"end":11447.04,"text":"規範的話"},{"start":11447.04,"end":11450.04,"text":"目前我們中研自己要求自己"},{"start":11450.04,"end":11452.04,"text":"其他學界的部分"},{"start":11452.04,"end":11457.04,"text":"我想應該要科技部跟教育部來共同"},{"start":11457.04,"end":11459.04,"text":"應該要國科會吧"},{"start":11459.13,"end":11462.13,"text":"羅偉我們現在面對很多的問題"},{"start":11462.13,"end":11465.13,"text":"就要各個學門來形成共識"},{"start":11465.13,"end":11469.13,"text":"比如說過去翻譯的文章算是個研究成果"},{"start":11469.13,"end":11471.13,"text":"它只寫說易助"},{"start":11471.13,"end":11473.13,"text":"現在用AI翻譯的"},{"start":11473.13,"end":11477.13,"text":"到底它的那個osmship怎麼去算"},{"start":11477.13,"end":11479.13,"text":"它的query怎麼去算"},{"start":11479.13,"end":11481.13,"text":"標準在哪裡"},{"start":11481.13,"end":11483.13,"text":"這個部分上要大量討論"},{"start":11483.13,"end":11485.13,"text":"要來研究"},{"start":11485.13,"end":11487.13,"text":"沒有說一刀切一定可以一定不行"},{"start":11487.13,"end":11490.13,"text":"但是透過討論我們來訂定一個標準"},{"start":11490.13,"end":11492.13,"text":"有機可循"},{"start":11492.13,"end":11494.13,"text":"所以副主委"},{"start":11494.13,"end":11496.13,"text":"針對中研院的建議"},{"start":11496.13,"end":11498.13,"text":"請問是否需要將AI訂定新的行為規範"},{"start":11500.11,"end":11502.11,"text":"各位委員會報"},{"start":11502.11,"end":11504.11,"text":"其實國科會我們一直都有在針對AI"},{"start":11504.11,"end":11506.11,"text":"制定一些指引的規定的部分"},{"start":11508.26,"end":11511.26,"text":"好我認同中研院報告所指出"},{"start":11511.26,"end":11513.26,"text":"AI確實有助學術發展"},{"start":11513.26,"end":11516.26,"text":"提升整個研究的效率品質"},{"start":11516.26,"end":11518.26,"text":"這件事情我們正面看待"},{"start":11518.26,"end":11520.26,"text":"但是也肯定"},{"start":11520.26,"end":11522.26,"text":"國科會長期推動AI的研發"},{"start":11522.26,"end":11525.26,"text":"以及科研所應用的一個努力"},{"start":11525.26,"end":11527.26,"text":"但是現在AI在學術上的應用"},{"start":11527.26,"end":11530.26,"text":"我認為有許多混沌"},{"start":11530.26,"end":11532.26,"text":"曖昧的一個地方"},{"start":11532.26,"end":11534.26,"text":"我們也要把它拿出來"},{"start":11534.26,"end":11535.26,"text":"好好的去做一個探討"},{"start":11535.26,"end":11537.26,"text":"所以我們慢慢來討論"},{"start":11537.26,"end":11539.26,"text":"更如何將AI界定清楚"},{"start":11539.26,"end":11541.26,"text":"不論對學者"},{"start":11541.26,"end":11542.26,"text":"個人而言"},{"start":11542.26,"end":11543.26,"text":"甚至整個學術端"},{"start":11543.26,"end":11544.26,"text":"都是有幫助的"},{"start":11544.26,"end":11546.26,"text":"我想這應該大家都認同吧"},{"start":11546.26,"end":11547.26,"text":"是的"},{"start":11547.26,"end":11549.26,"text":"所以也因為現在大家都使用AI"},{"start":11549.26,"end":11551.26,"text":"怎麼樣使用AI是合情"},{"start":11551.26,"end":11552.26,"text":"合理"},{"start":11552.26,"end":11553.26,"text":"合法"},{"start":11553.26,"end":11556.26,"text":"什麼樣的情形可能涉及學術倫理的風險"},{"start":11556.26,"end":11559.26,"text":"我覺得有必要跟大家說清楚講明白"},{"start":11559.26,"end":11561.26,"text":"因為如果不講清楚"},{"start":11561.26,"end":11563.26,"text":"萬一誤觸了"},{"start":11563.83,"end":11565.83,"text":"整個學者的研究"},{"start":11566.32,"end":11567.32,"text":"是不是也會"},{"start":11568.47,"end":11569.47,"text":"複製流水"},{"start":11569.97,"end":11571.97,"text":"所以請問國科會AI生成的內容"},{"start":11571.97,"end":11572.97,"text":"怎麼界定"},{"start":11574.59,"end":11575.59,"text":"有使用到AI就算嗎"},{"start":11576.63,"end":11577.63,"text":"應該不是吧"},{"start":11579.1,"end":11581.1,"text":"其實還是回到研究的本質"},{"start":11581.1,"end":11583.1,"text":"那AI其實還是一個工具"},{"start":11583.1,"end":11584.1,"text":"它是輔助的工具"},{"start":11584.1,"end":11586.1,"text":"它不應該成為一個研究的"},{"start":11586.1,"end":11587.1,"text":"就是說"},{"start":11587.1,"end":11590.1,"text":"它不能讓研究人員"},{"start":11590.1,"end":11592.1,"text":"拿來怎麼講"},{"start":11592.1,"end":11594.1,"text":"偷懶或者卸責"},{"start":11594.1,"end":11597.1,"text":"這一些不當使用"},{"start":11597.1,"end":11598.1,"text":"我知道"},{"start":11598.1,"end":11599.1,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":11599.1,"end":11602.1,"text":"我們還是會回到研究的本質"},{"start":11602.1,"end":11604.1,"text":"那希望我們的PI"},{"start":11604.1,"end":11607.1,"text":"就是可以對他所提出的研究的東西"},{"start":11607.1,"end":11608.1,"text":"負責任"},{"start":11608.1,"end":11610.1,"text":"它就算使用了AI工具"},{"start":11610.1,"end":11611.1,"text":"生了圖片也好"},{"start":11611.1,"end":11612.1,"text":"生了文字也好"},{"start":11612.1,"end":11614.1,"text":"它最後還是要做確認"},{"start":11614.1,"end":11615.1,"text":"還是要做負責"},{"start":11615.1,"end":11618.1,"text":"所以AI生成到什麼階段是不行"},{"start":11619.85,"end":11622.85,"text":"我們基本上還是希望能夠界定清楚"},{"start":11624.22,"end":11626.22,"text":"跟委員報告應該是說"},{"start":11626.22,"end":11628.22,"text":"不能是說AI生成到什麼程度不行"},{"start":11628.22,"end":11631.22,"text":"應該說就算整篇都是AI生成的"},{"start":11631.22,"end":11633.22,"text":"但是核心的價值"},{"start":11633.22,"end":11635.22,"text":"核心的內容是"},{"start":11635.22,"end":11637.22,"text":"是它所提出來的原創性"},{"start":11637.22,"end":11639.22,"text":"然後以及它整篇文章"},{"start":11639.22,"end":11640.22,"text":"它還是有負責任"},{"start":11640.22,"end":11643.22,"text":"就算它的文字是經過AI論稿認識"},{"start":11644.56,"end":11647.56,"text":"這應該都是還是屬於合理使用範圍"},{"start":11647.56,"end":11648.56,"text":"對我就想問你"},{"start":11648.56,"end":11650.56,"text":"就是說它的AI請它論事"},{"start":11650.56,"end":11651.56,"text":"文章"},{"start":11651.56,"end":11652.56,"text":"對字"},{"start":11652.56,"end":11653.56,"text":"拿掉"},{"start":11653.56,"end":11654.56,"text":"但基本的核心是它的"},{"start":11654.56,"end":11656.56,"text":"這有沒有學理問題"},{"start":11656.56,"end":11658.56,"text":"如果今天我們把它定清楚"},{"start":11658.56,"end":11659.56,"text":"沒有學理問題"},{"start":11660.4,"end":11662.4,"text":"那基本上大家就比較放心嘛"},{"start":11662.4,"end":11664.4,"text":"就是怕會有誤觸"},{"start":11664.4,"end":11666.4,"text":"或者是有相關的疑慮嘛"},{"start":11666.4,"end":11668.4,"text":"其實我今天"},{"start":11668.4,"end":11671.4,"text":"我今天也遇到一個蠻尷尬的"},{"start":11671.4,"end":11673.4,"text":"我今天大概就是自拍"},{"start":11674.17,"end":11676.17,"text":"然後我請AI說把我那個"},{"start":11676.17,"end":11677.17,"text":"有一個頭髮"},{"start":11677.28,"end":11679.28,"text":"翹起來幫我修掉"},{"start":11679.72,"end":11681.72,"text":"然後我就貼上去臉書"},{"start":11682.37,"end":11685.37,"text":"結果它就直接給我上一個AI標籤"},{"start":11685.68,"end":11687.68,"text":"好像說我沒有到那個地方"},{"start":11687.68,"end":11691.68,"text":"然後沒有在那個地點時間出現"},{"start":11691.68,"end":11692.68,"text":"就造成一些誤會啦"},{"start":11692.68,"end":11694.68,"text":"實際上我就趕快拿"},{"start":11694.68,"end":11697.68,"text":"CHEPGVT生成的過程跟大家報告"},{"start":11697.68,"end":11698.68,"text":"我在那個時間點"},{"start":11698.68,"end":11700.68,"text":"我人在那邊"},{"start":11700.68,"end":11701.68,"text":"只是我的頭髮"},{"start":11701.68,"end":11703.68,"text":"就翹起來我請它說修掉以後"},{"start":11703.68,"end":11705.68,"text":"就直接貼了這一個圖片"},{"start":11707.11,"end":11709.11,"text":"那就是有所謂的"},{"start":11710.41,"end":11712.41,"text":"那我們這個都還好"},{"start":11712.41,"end":11713.41,"text":"這只是一個臉書的貼文"},{"start":11713.41,"end":11715.41,"text":"我們不希望是學術研究的時候"},{"start":11715.41,"end":11718.41,"text":"會不會有誤解誤觸的一個問題"},{"start":11718.41,"end":11720.41,"text":"所以在學術倫理的一個定定"},{"start":11720.41,"end":11722.41,"text":"我們希望能夠更加的嚴謹"},{"start":11723.78,"end":11724.78,"text":"不是說嚴苛啦"},{"start":11724.78,"end":11727.78,"text":"是說它有一定的步驟有跡可循"},{"start":11727.78,"end":11728.78,"text":"所以"},{"start":11729.56,"end":11733.56,"text":"接下來如果研究成果大量使用AI生成內容"},{"start":11733.56,"end":11736.56,"text":"各位如何認定是否抄襲跟造假的時候"},{"start":11736.56,"end":11738.56,"text":"這是我今天很關心的"},{"start":11739.55,"end":11741.55,"text":"所以關於揭露的義務"},{"start":11741.55,"end":11743.55,"text":"是否有一致的標準"},{"start":11743.55,"end":11745.55,"text":"是否全面揭露要採用"},{"start":11746.21,"end":11747.21,"text":"還是"},{"start":11747.43,"end":11749.43,"text":"重大影響的採集喔"},{"start":11749.67,"end":11751.67,"text":"這個有沒有具體的指引"},{"start":11751.67,"end":11752.67,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":11752.67,"end":11754.67,"text":"其實我們都是要求要全面揭露"},{"start":11754.67,"end":11755.67,"text":"那沒關係啊"},{"start":11755.67,"end":11756.67,"text":"你訂定清楚嘛"},{"start":11756.67,"end":11757.67,"text":"是"},{"start":11757.67,"end":11758.67,"text":"好不好"},{"start":11758.67,"end":11760.67,"text":"我們要的是有跡可循"},{"start":11760.67,"end":11761.67,"text":"而不是現在我來指導你"},{"start":11761.67,"end":11763.67,"text":"什麼樣是對什麼樣是錯"},{"start":11763.67,"end":11765.67,"text":"因為實務上你們更清楚嘛"},{"start":11766.87,"end":11767.87,"text":"是的"},{"start":11767.87,"end":11768.87,"text":"好"},{"start":11768.87,"end":11771.87,"text":"那我想是否有需要將這個AI訂定新的行為規範"},{"start":11773.21,"end":11775.21,"text":"其實這個所謂的AI的行為規範"},{"start":11775.21,"e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所謂的實質上的限制"},{"start":11919.26,"end":11920.26,"text":"就像說"},{"start":11920.26,"end":11922.26,"text":"我們也會要求"},{"start":11922.26,"end":11923.26,"text":"在沒有AI的年代"},{"start":11923.26,"end":11924.26,"text":"我們會要求說"},{"start":11924.26,"end":11926.26,"text":"你要把你的實驗的數據等等的"},{"start":11926.26,"end":11927.26,"text":"那"},{"start":11927.26,"end":11928.26,"text":"在實驗室當中"},{"start":11928.26,"end":11930.26,"text":"做好一些控管等等"},{"start":11930.26,"end":11931.26,"text":"這個我們其實"},{"start":11931.26,"end":11933.26,"text":"之前都有做提醒做要求"},{"start":11933.26,"end":11934.26,"text":"當然"},{"start":11934.26,"end":11935.26,"text":"其實AI時代也是一樣的"},{"start":11935.26,"end":11937.26,"text":"我想今天現在有AI的時代"},{"start":11937.26,"end":11939.26,"text":"大家也要有新的適應"},{"start":11939.26,"end":11941.26,"text":"新的自我的一個審視的觀念"},{"start":11941.26,"end":11942.26,"text":"但是我們希望說"},{"start":11942.26,"end":11944.26,"text":"在這個品質建立的過程中"},{"start":11944.26,"end":11947.26,"text":"有建立監督的機制也好"},{"start":11947.26,"end":11948.26,"text":"有可以有相關的"},{"start":11948.26,"end":11950.26,"text":"輔助的一個功能也好"},{"start":11950.26,"end":11951.26,"text":"這個部分上"},{"start":11951.26,"end":11952.26,"text":"不是AI輔助他"},{"start":11952.26,"end":11954.26,"text":"是我們要輔助使用者"},{"start":11954.26,"end":11956.26,"text":"或者是學術研究的一個過程"},{"start":11956.26,"end":11958.26,"text":"有這樣子的相關指引"},{"start":11958.26,"end":11960.26,"text":"當然你說有一部分的一些"},{"start":11960.26,"end":11961.26,"text":"一般性應用"},{"start":11961.26,"end":11964.26,"text":"跟學術倫理的一個歸納"},{"start":11964.26,"end":11967.26,"text":"基本上大家都會有一個初步的共識"},{"start":11967.26,"end":11968.26,"text":"但是我們還是希望"},{"start":11968.26,"end":11970.26,"text":"後續能夠更加明確"},{"start":11970.26,"end":11972.26,"text":"因為我們還不知道AI"},{"start":11972.26,"end":11974.26,"text":"未來變化還能夠有多少"},{"start":11974.26,"end":11976.26,"text":"大家一起加油好嗎"},{"start":11976.26,"end":11977.26,"text":"謝謝文洋"},{"start":11977.26,"end":11979.26,"text":"另外簡單就問一個問題"},{"start":11979.26,"end":11980.26,"text":"訓練AI算力"},{"start":11980.26,"end":11982.26,"text":"先要有高效能的設備就是GPU"},{"start":11982.26,"end":11984.26,"text":"GPU的成本高達上千萬"},{"start":11984.26,"end":11986.26,"text":"學者如果要做這項技術"},{"start":11986.26,"end":11989.26,"text":"首先要有上千萬的資本額"},{"start":11989.26,"end":11990.26,"text":"這是入門的一個關鍵"},{"start":11990.26,"end":11992.26,"text":"那政府可以具體的"},{"start":11992.26,"end":11994.26,"text":"來協助業者什麼樣的一個項目"},{"start":11994.26,"end":11996.26,"text":"我想問一下"},{"start":11996.26,"end":11997.26,"text":"書發部"},{"start":11999.64,"end":12001.64,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":12001.64,"end":12003.64,"text":"書發部在算力上面"},{"start":12003.64,"end":12006.64,"text":"從去年開始就有建立這個算力"},{"start":12006.64,"end":12007.64,"text":"讓業者能夠去運用"},{"start":12007.64,"end":12012.64,"text":"那現在已經有180多家的廠商來利用"},{"start":12012.64,"end":12013.64,"text":"那去年比較可惜的狀況"},{"start":12013.64,"end":12015.64,"text":"是因為預算刪減的關係"},{"start":12015.64,"end":12017.64,"text":"所以我們本來要增購的100片的GPU"},{"start":12017.64,"end":12018.64,"text":"沒有辦法購買"},{"start":12018.64,"end":12023.64,"text":"但是我們也另外去跟國防中心"},{"start":12023.64,"end":12025.64,"text":"去商界了一些算力"},{"start":12025.64,"end":12031.64,"text":"持續性的提供給業者來使用"},{"start":12031.64,"end":12034.64,"text":"只有購買GPU這一項方法嗎"},{"start":12034.64,"end":12036.64,"text":"我覺得其實基本上"},{"start":12036.64,"end":12037.64,"text":"不管是計算力"},{"start":12037.64,"end":12040.64,"text":"或者是其他的業者在研究地端"},{"start":12040.64,"end":12043.64,"text":"在研究所謂的大型語言模組的時候"},{"start":12043.64,"end":12045.64,"text":"其實它不一定都是靠GPU"},{"start":12045.64,"end":12047.64,"text":"因為我們也有接觸到一些業者"},{"start":12047.64,"end":12049.64,"text":"他們所提供的新營方法"},{"start":12049.64,"end":12051.64,"text":"我希望提出這個問題就是說"},{"start":12051.64,"end":12053.64,"text":"購買GPU當然固然重要"},{"start":12053.64,"end":12056.64,"text":"但是只有GPU不斷的購買"},{"start":12056.64,"end":12058.64,"text":"這唯一的走向嗎"},{"start":12058.64,"end":12059.64,"text":"我覺得這個部分"},{"start":12059.64,"end":12061.64,"text":"書發部是不是也應該多提提"},{"start":12061.64,"end":12063.64,"text":"我了解委員所提到的各種"},{"start":12063.64,"end":12065.64,"text":"目前不同的新的"},{"start":12065.64,"end":12068.64,"text":"降低算力需求的做法"},{"start":12068.64,"end":12072.64,"text":"我知道也有硬體廠商"},{"start":12072.64,"end":12074.64,"text":"他們有新的架構來提供"},{"start":12074.64,"end":12078.64,"text":"比如說用其他的硬體設備來取代GPU"},{"start":12078.64,"end":12081.64,"text":"那這個都是我們可以討論合作"},{"start":12081.64,"end":12083.64,"text":"另外一個部分是在"},{"start":12083.64,"end":12085.64,"text":"促餐的通過以後"},{"start":12085.64,"end":12088.64,"text":"我們也希望結合民間的力量"},{"start":12088.64,"end":12092.64,"text":"來提供他們所興建的預算"},{"start":12092.64,"end":12095.64,"text":"能夠提供部分給公共使用"},{"start":12095.64,"end":12098.64,"text":"我會這樣子最後再提這個問題就是說"},{"start":12098.64,"end":12100.64,"text":"希望書發部能夠廣大意見"},{"start":12100.64,"end":12103.64,"text":"多了解一下廠商所提供的新營計畫"},{"start":12103.64,"end":12104.64,"text":"技術"},{"start":12104.64,"end":12106.64,"text":"因為我們也有看到"},{"start":12106.64,"end":12107.64,"text":"我覺得不錯"},{"start":12107.64,"end":12109.64,"text":"GPU不再是購買的唯一選項"},{"start":12109.64,"end":12112.64,"text":"畢竟耗費是大量的人民的預算"},{"start":12112.64,"end":12113.64,"text":"納稅錢"},{"start":12113.64,"end":12115.64,"text":"我們也希望說有更切實際"},{"start":12115.64,"end":12117.64,"text":"或者是花在刀口的一個部分"},{"start":12117.64,"end":12118.64,"text":"我們能夠來參考"},{"start":12118.64,"end":12120.64,"text":"有需要我介紹我們也都願意"},{"start":12120.64,"end":12122.64,"text":"只要能夠讓我們這個環境"},{"start":12122.64,"end":12124.64,"text":"產業更好我們大家一起努力"},{"start":12125.58,"end":12126.58,"text":"謝謝王怡君"},{"start":12126.94,"end":12128.94,"text":"好謝謝羅廷瑋召委的質詢"},{"start":12128.94,"end":12130.94,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":12130.94,"end":12134.94,"text":"接下來有請中嘉賓委員進行詢答"},{"start":12148.48,"end":12150.48,"text":"主席再討委員先進"},{"start":12150.48,"end":12152.48,"text":"列席的政府區議會上官員會長工作夥伴"},{"start":12152.48,"end":12154.48,"text":"媒體記者女士先生"},{"start":12154.48,"end":12155.48,"text":"有請"},{"start":12156.65,"end":12159.65,"text":"國科會的陳副主委"},{"start":12159.65,"end":12161.65,"text":"還有訴發部的侯次長"},{"start":12161.65,"end":12164.65,"text":"以及中研院的彭副院長"},{"start":12164.65,"end":12167.65,"text":"好請三位機關副首長上配訊台"},{"start":12167.65,"end":12168.65,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12168.65,"end":12170.65,"text":"好座委員好"},{"start":12170.65,"end":12173.65,"text":"這個副院長副主委跟次長"},{"start":12173.65,"end":12177.65,"text":"今天我們談的就是數位透明度的分級兼顧資安與取用"},{"start":12177.65,"end":12181.65,"text":"科專計畫能否來支援能源設施科研研究"},{"start":12181.65,"end":12183.65,"text":"社科長來我們看一下"},{"start":12183.69,"end":12186.69,"text":"原生數據到底我們是要限制取用還是放寬使用"},{"start":12186.69,"end":12188.69,"text":"這在我們的AI基本法當中討論很多"},{"start":12188.69,"end":12191.69,"text":"像歐盟GPAR他是為了保護隱私限制取用"},{"start":12191.69,"end":12194.69,"text":"但是相對的就是影響到AI的發展速度"},{"start":12196.42,"end":12201.42,"text":"歐盟大概是主要先進國家AI的應用程度發展最慢"},{"start":12201.42,"end":12204.42,"text":"但是相對我們看這個吉普利的畫風"},{"start":12204.42,"end":12209.42,"text":"這是在日本他們政府的法令規定放寬取用可以二創"},{"start":12209.42,"end":12212.42,"text":"但是這樣就造成了原來的創作者"},{"start":12212.42,"end":12213.42,"text":"他說影響到創作者的潛意"},{"start":12213.42,"end":12215.42,"text":"先請問國科會"},{"start":12215.42,"end":12219.42,"text":"副主委你認為我國的AI基本法之後的取向會偏向哪一邊"},{"start":12220.68,"end":12222.68,"text":"只能選一邊不能兩邊都選"},{"start":12223.65,"end":12227.65,"text":"其實AI基本法設定的過程當中真的是兩邊橫平的"},{"start":12227.65,"end":12228.65,"text":"橫平的"},{"start":12228.65,"end":12229.65,"text":"會議院長你也認同嗎"},{"start":12230.88,"end":12232.88,"text":"就是說沒有絕對二選一"},{"start":12232.88,"end":12234.88,"text":"我想要學界來形成一個共識"},{"start":12234.88,"end":12236.88,"text":"好那麼猴子黨呢"},{"start":12238.82,"end":12240.82,"text":"我認為我們"},{"start":12241.56,"end":12243.56,"text":"目標是希望放寬取用"},{"start":12243.56,"end":12246.56,"text":"但是採用技術的方式來保障個人的隱私"},{"start":12246.56,"end":12247.56,"text":"很好那麼猴子黨說明了"},{"start":12247.56,"end":12248.56,"text":"因為這"},{"start":12248.56,"end":12249.56,"text":"部會的權責不同"},{"start":12249.56,"end":12251.56,"text":"因為速發不要發展"},{"start":12251.56,"end":12253.56,"text":"它當然要降低取用的限制"},{"start":12253.56,"end":12258.56,"text":"但是我們看到資料的取用被取用的有基本上兩個對價關係"},{"start":12258.56,"end":12260.56,"text":"如果你AI的數據庫要取用"},{"start":12260.56,"end":12262.56,"text":"那對方商業機制它允許你取用"},{"start":12262.56,"end":12263.56,"text":"但是你要不要有回饋機制"},{"start":12263.56,"end":12264.56,"text":"這我們討論的"},{"start":12264.56,"end":12267.56,"text":"但是如果是民眾他有涉及到隱私"},{"start":12267.56,"end":12268.56,"text":"你要取用當然要去識別的話"},{"start":12268.56,"end":12270.56,"text":"這就是對價關係的設計"},{"start":12270.56,"end":12272.56,"text":"但是對於AI取用的對價關係"},{"start":12272.56,"end":12276.56,"text":"國會在未來AI進行研討法之後的各項行政規定"},{"start":12276.56,"end":12277.56,"text":"有沒有一個思考"},{"start":12278.99,"end":12281.99,"text":"我們跟速發部應該會共同一起來努力"},{"start":12281.99,"end":12282.99,"text":"好跟速發部"},{"start":12282.99,"end":12283.99,"text":"好那我舉個例子"},{"start":12283.99,"end":12284.99,"text":"我猜猜看你們知道這什麼"},{"start":12284.99,"end":12286.99,"text":"這叫做地級資料"},{"start":12286.99,"end":12290.99,"text":"你知道什麼叫做地級登記簿騰本嗎"},{"start":12291.63,"end":12292.63,"text":"沒有人有印象沒有"},{"start":12292.63,"end":12294.63,"text":"譬如說我要是去銀行貸款"},{"start":12294.63,"end":12297.63,"text":"我要去申請我本人的名下的土地"},{"start":12297.63,"end":12299.63,"text":"它會出現我的名字出生年月日"},{"start":12299.63,"end":12300.63,"text":"我的身分證字號我的住址"},{"start":12300.63,"end":12301.63,"text":"因為銀行要對保嘛"},{"start":12301.63,"end":12303.63,"text":"然後呢我有沒有設定抵押"},{"start":12304.37,"end":12305.37,"text":"但是如果今天我是狗仔隊"},{"start":12305.37,"end":12306.37,"text":"我去看陳主委"},{"start":12306.37,"end":12307.37,"text":"常出入某棟房子"},{"start":12307.37,"end":12309.37,"text":"我跟你們要查到它的地級"},{"start":12309.37,"end":12311.37,"text":"我又查出來說那個地級登記簿騰本"},{"start":12311.37,"end":12312.37,"text":"土地是誰的"},{"start":12313.72,"end":12315.72,"text":"如果說全街路啊"},{"start":12315.72,"end":12318.72,"text":"我就可以說這個陳主委跟某某地主"},{"start":12318.72,"end":12320.72,"text":"有一些不尋常的曖昧關係是不是"},{"start":12320.72,"end":12322.72,"text":"說要限制嘛"},{"start":12322.72,"end":12324.72,"text":"但是如果說我是一個房客"},{"start":12324.72,"end":12328.72,"text":"我是陳租人我要去租你的土地"},{"start":12328.72,"end":12330.72,"text":"我知道好歹知道你的土地的地主吧"},{"start":12331.72,"end":12333.72,"text":"所以政府提供的資訊"},{"start":12333.72,"end":12334.72,"text":"因著它的用途的不同"},{"start":12334.72,"end":12335.72,"text":"身份的不同"},{"start":12335.72,"end":12336.72,"text":"它有些取用的不同"},{"start":12336.72,"end":12337.72,"text":"所以是登記人"},{"start":12337.72,"end":12339.72,"text":"任何人還是關鍵人取用的不同"},{"start":12339.72,"end":12342.72,"text":"好但是有一種情況"},{"start":12342.72,"end":12343.72,"text":"我舉個例你們聽聽看"},{"start":12343.72,"end":12346.72,"text":"最近我在跟能源署討論"},{"start":12346.72,"end":12348.72,"text":"台灣的未來的電力配置"},{"start":12348.72,"end":12350.72,"text":"他說未來能源署會根據"},{"start":12350.72,"end":12351.72,"text":"因為用電的需要知道"},{"start":12351.72,"end":12354.72,"text":"目前每個地區的用電需求量"},{"start":12354.72,"end":12357.72,"text":"所以它會把每個電表的大數據"},{"start":12357.72,"end":12359.72,"text":"下放到地方政府"},{"start":12359.72,"end":12361.72,"text":"讓民眾用電人可以知道"},{"start":12362.75,"end":12363.75,"text":"該地區的用電狀況"},{"start":12364.8,"end":12365.8,"text":"這個很可怕啦"},{"start":12365.8,"end":12366.8,"text":"我先問一下副院長"},{"start":12366.8,"end":12368.8,"text":"如果說你住在某個區公所"},{"start":12368.8,"end":12370.8,"text":"那個區公所你上網可以看到"},{"start":12370.8,"end":12371.8,"text":"所有家的電表"},{"start":12371.8,"end":12373.8,"text":"我可不可以找那個不在家的人去偷東西"},{"start":12374.77,"end":12376.77,"text":"對所以這部分應該是"},{"start":12376.77,"end":12379.77,"text":"個人資料保護法要檢討的問題"},{"start":12379.77,"end":12382.77,"text":"是的所以當我們行程大數據"},{"start":12383.34,"end":12384.34,"text":"政府要供人民使用的時候"},{"start":12384.34,"end":12385.34,"text":"一定要有一些考量"},{"start":12385.34,"end":12388.34,"text":"我們看一下但是這些"},{"start":12388.34,"end":12389.34,"text":"還有一些不平等"},{"start":12389.34,"end":12391.34,"text":"不只是身份不同用途不同"},{"start":12391.34,"end":12392.34,"text":"還有算力的不平等"},{"start":12392.34,"end":12394.34,"text":"同樣的算力強的人"},{"start":12394.34,"end":12396.34,"text":"他可以掌握比較多的資訊"},{"start":12396.34,"end":12398.34,"text":"相對弱的人就沒辦法取用"},{"start":12398.34,"end":12399.34,"text":"我舉個例子"},{"start":12399.34,"end":12400.34,"text":"上個月有一個新聞"},{"start":12402.18,"end":12404.18,"text":"他撥灣占雲吃井啊"},{"start":12404.18,"end":12405.18,"text":"他去馳援啊"},{"start":12405.18,"end":12408.18,"text":"結果呢因為有個軍官在航空母艦跑步"},{"start":12408.18,"end":12410.18,"text":"他用一個慢跑的APP"},{"start":12410.18,"end":12412.18,"text":"結果呢有人去查他這個APP"},{"start":12412.18,"end":12413.18,"text":"這個資料是公開的啊"},{"start":12413.18,"end":12416.18,"text":"他在印度洋上跑步啊"},{"start":12416.18,"end":12419.18,"text":"所以馬上人家查出航空母艦的軌跡了"},{"start":12419.18,"end":12421.18,"text":"好陳文辰主委"},{"start":12421.18,"end":12424.18,"text":"那麼這個就是數位平等的數據金用權"},{"start":12424.18,"end":12427.18,"text":"還有數據數位隱蔽要確保資安國安"},{"start":12427.18,"end":12428.18,"text":"這兩個部分"},{"start":12428.18,"end":12430.18,"text":"還要托起到你的算力"},{"start":12430.18,"end":12432.18,"text":"未來會不會在立法的時候考量這個"},{"start":12432.18,"end":12434.18,"text":"利益入點的不同"},{"start":12435.16,"end":12436.16,"text":"請往下看"},{"start":12436.7,"end":12437.7,"text":"來就是這樣"},{"start":12439.23,"end":12441.23,"text":"你們會不會有一個分級"},{"start":12441.78,"end":12443.78,"text":"數位透明數位隱蔽的相關執法"},{"start":12446.35,"end":12448.35,"text":"這個可能要說發布了"},{"start":12450.03,"end":12451.03,"text":"是跟委員報告"},{"start":12451.03,"end":12453.03,"text":"這個部分確實"},{"start":12453.03,"end":12455.03,"text":"在我們現在整個推動法律"},{"start":12455.03,"end":12457.03,"text":"法律修正的這個過程"},{"start":12457.03,"end":12459.03,"text":"會由風險分級的方式來"},{"start":12459.03,"end":12460.03,"text":"不是風險分級"},{"start":12460.03,"end":12462.03,"text":"不好意思風險分類"},{"start":12462.03,"end":12463.03,"text":"那您剛剛講到這個部分"},{"start":12463.03,"end":12466.03,"text":"其實風險分類中非常重要的部分"},{"start":12466.03,"end":12469.03,"text":"就是隱私這個部分"},{"start":12469.03,"end":12471.03,"text":"還有會在"},{"start":12471.03,"end":12472.03,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":12472.03,"end":12475.03,"text":"會在不同的這個應用場景底下"},{"start":12475.03,"end":12478.03,"text":"我們會去跟各部會對接"},{"start":12478.03,"end":12481.03,"text":"希望他們可以考慮到這件事情"},{"start":12481.03,"end":12482.03,"text":"好要注意到"},{"start":12482.03,"end":12484.03,"text":"其實媒體的數據經用權"},{"start":12484.03,"end":12486.03,"text":"因著你的算力多寡不同"},{"start":12486.03,"end":12489.03,"text":"其實對有人是隱蔽的對他人是透明的"},{"start":12489.03,"end":12491.03,"text":"那如果你的算力不夠"},{"start":12491.03,"end":12492.03,"text":"雖然是透明公開的資料"},{"start":12492.03,"end":12493.03,"text":"但是你都沒辦法使用"},{"start":12493.03,"end":12495.03,"text":"就像我說的地級登記不成本"},{"start":12495.03,"end":12496.03,"text":"我想在座的人有多少人用過"},{"start":12496.03,"end":12498.03,"text":"可能不曉得我可以升級第二類第三類"},{"start":12498.03,"end":12499.03,"text":"可以往下看"},{"start":12499.03,"end":12502.03,"text":"好現在呢工商時報前天的新聞"},{"start":12503.8,"end":12504.8,"text":"那個台電"},{"start":12504.8,"end":12507.8,"text":"同志說AI資料中心的用電規模"},{"start":12507.8,"end":12509.8,"text":"堪比半寶體產業"},{"start":12509.8,"end":12510.8,"text":"但那廠房面積比較小"},{"start":12510.8,"end":12512.8,"text":"可以建在都會地區"},{"start":12512.8,"end":12514.8,"text":"會對電網形成挑戰"},{"start":12514.8,"end":12515.8,"text":"什麼意思"},{"start":12515.8,"end":12516.8,"text":"我們往下看"},{"start":12516.8,"end":12517.8,"text":"所謂的算力靠電力"},{"start":12517.8,"end":12519.8,"text":"電網要韌性"},{"start":12519.8,"end":12520.8,"text":"但是電網裡面的變電所"},{"start":12520.8,"end":12522.8,"text":"儲能設施燃料電池"},{"start":12522.8,"end":12524.8,"text":"淋幣效應怎麼去處理"},{"start":12524.8,"end":12525.8,"text":"有沒有講過這個問題陳主委"},{"start":12525.8,"end":12528.8,"text":"你們在設這些算力分布的時候"},{"start":12529.46,"end":12530.46,"text":"還是哪一個要回答"},{"start":12530.46,"end":12532.46,"text":"這個你們在強調算力的同時"},{"start":12532.46,"end":12534.46,"text":"有沒有考慮到power couple"},{"start":12537.97,"end":12538.97,"text":"欸"},{"start":12539.35,"end":12540.35,"text":"好"},{"start":12540.35,"end":12542.35,"text":"跟委員回報我們在建置"},{"start":12542.35,"end":12543.35,"text":"算力中心的時候"},{"start":12543.35,"end":12545.35,"text":"是都有跟台電保持聯繫"},{"start":12545.35,"end":12550.35,"text":"有確保供電的來源"},{"start":12550.35,"end":12551.35,"text":"但是台電很困擾"},{"start":12551.35,"end":12553.35,"text":"你們只是需求者"},{"start":12553.35,"end":12554.35,"text":"困難誰去排除"},{"start":12555.01,"end":12556.01,"text":"台電要去排除"},{"start":12556.01,"end":12557.01,"text":"那台電怎麼排除"},{"start":12557.01,"end":12558.01,"text":"我舉個例子往下看"},{"start":12558.01,"end":12559.01,"text":"過去我們在教委會"},{"start":12559.01,"end":12561.01,"text":"我們常常文資保"},{"start":12561.01,"end":12562.01,"text":"文資保存常常發現"},{"start":12562.01,"end":12563.01,"text":"被認定股機後"},{"start":12563.01,"end":12564.01,"text":"就被一把火放火燒掉"},{"start":12564.01,"end":12565.01,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":12565.01,"end":12567.01,"text":"因為地主怕被限制"},{"start":12567.01,"end":12568.01,"text":"因此後來呢"},{"start":12568.01,"end":12569.01,"text":"有人從都支計畫下手"},{"start":12569.01,"end":12570.01,"text":"想說應該叫做什麼"},{"start":12570.01,"end":12572.01,"text":"容積率移轉"},{"start":12572.01,"end":12573.01,"text":"我給你容積率獎勵"},{"start":12573.01,"end":12574.01,"text":"但是你這個台灣銀行"},{"start":12574.01,"end":12575.01,"text":"你這個股機你不能拆"},{"start":12575.01,"end":12576.01,"text":"你不能改建"},{"start":12576.01,"end":12578.01,"text":"但是你的發展權"},{"start":12578.01,"end":12579.01,"text":"我換算成容積率"},{"start":12579.01,"end":12581.01,"text":"移轉到你台電"},{"start":12581.01,"end":12582.01,"text":"台銀的其他地方大樓"},{"start":12582.01,"end":12583.01,"text":"有沒有聽過"},{"start":12584.34,"end":12586.34,"text":"有聽過容積率移轉的這個獎勵吧"},{"start":12586.34,"end":12587.34,"text":"好"},{"start":12587.34,"end":12588.34,"text":"這個是誰想出來的"},{"start":12589.94,"end":12591.94,"text":"這個就是需要社科的研究"},{"start":12591.94,"end":12592.94,"text":"才有辦法去解決"},{"start":12592.94,"end":12593.94,"text":"單單是台電"},{"start":12593.94,"end":12595.94,"text":"他有能力去創設一個"},{"start":12595.94,"end":12597.94,"text":"容積率移轉的獎勵嗎"},{"start":12597.94,"end":12598.94,"text":"很難"},{"start":12598.94,"end":12599.94,"text":"但是你們要算力"},{"start":12599.94,"end":12600.94,"text":"你們要電力"},{"start":12600.94,"end":12601.94,"text":"問題都要去解決"},{"start":12601.94,"end":12602.94,"text":"零避設施"},{"start":12602.94,"end":12603.94,"text":"便電所"},{"start":12603.94,"end":12604.94,"text":"台北市不容興建"},{"start":12604.94,"end":12605.94,"text":"那請問你在台北市"},{"start":12605.94,"end":12606.94,"text":"你NVIDIA"},{"start":12606.94,"end":12607.94,"text":"你要落到這裡"},{"start":12607.94,"end":12608.94,"text":"你怎麼辦"},{"start":12609.47,"end":12610.47,"text":"陳主委你認為呢"},{"start":12613.47,"end":12615.47,"text":"這個我"},{"start":12616.22,"end":12618.22,"text":"我們可以鼓勵學者做這方面的"},{"start":12618.22,"end":12619.22,"text":"是不是鼓勵"},{"start":12619.22,"end":12620.22,"text":"你們有科專計畫"},{"start":12620.22,"end":12622.22,"text":"所以我是覺得你們要鎖定"},{"start":12622.22,"end":12624.22,"text":"不是只看算力而已"},{"start":12624.22,"end":12625.22,"text":"你們要思考到"},{"start":12625.22,"end":12627.22,"text":"整個我們的科研"},{"start":12627.22,"end":12628.22,"text":"在我們的國家社會"},{"start":12628.22,"end":12630.22,"text":"不是超然於社會而外的"},{"start":12630.22,"end":12632.22,"text":"所以我們的科研計畫"},{"start":12632.22,"end":12633.22,"text":"要支援的"},{"start":12633.22,"end":12634.22,"text":"不是只是一些科學應用"},{"start":12634.22,"end":12635.22,"text":"還要在應用過程中"},{"start":12635.22,"end":12637.22,"text":"有些社科的調查"},{"start":12637.22,"end":12639.22,"text":"才能協助政府機關"},{"start":12639.22,"end":12640.22,"text":"不只統合這些科研資源"},{"start":12640.22,"end":12642.22,"text":"還能夠發展出應對的有效政策"},{"start":12642.22,"end":12643.22,"text":"同不同意"},{"start":12645.31,"end":12646.31,"text":"好"},{"start":12646.31,"end":12647.31,"text":"那最後我們就往下看"},{"start":12647.31,"end":12648.31,"text":"就是最後的結論了"},{"start":12648.31,"end":12650.31,"text":"所以希望在AI基本的框架下"},{"start":12650.31,"end":12652.31,"text":"請速發布"},{"start":12652.31,"end":12653.31,"text":"可以針對不同的算力"},{"start":12653.31,"end":12654.31,"text":"國科會去評估"},{"start":12654.31,"end":12656.31,"text":"這個數位分級透明"},{"start":12656.31,"end":12657.31,"text":"數位隱蔽的相關知法"},{"start":12657.31,"end":12658.31,"text":"兩個部會共同合作"},{"start":12658.31,"end":12659.31,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":12659.31,"end":12660.31,"text":"兩位"},{"start":12660.31,"end":12661.31,"text":"陳副主委跟侯市長"},{"start":12661.31,"end":12662.31,"text":"請對著麥克風答覆"},{"start":12664.19,"end":12665.19,"text":"好"},{"start":12665.19,"end":12668.19,"text":"那我知道今天那個國科會"},{"start":12668.19,"end":12669.19,"text":"好像"},{"start":12671.15,"end":12672.15,"text":"沒有這些社會人文科學"},{"start":12672.15,"end":12673.15,"text":"好像有吧"},{"start":12673.15,"end":12674.15,"text":"好像是你們"},{"start":12674.15,"end":12675.15,"text":"有一個人文及社會科學"},{"start":12675.15,"end":12677.15,"text":"研究發展處是不是"},{"start":12677.15,"end":12678.15,"text":"未來的科專計畫"},{"start":12678.15,"end":12680.15,"text":"是不是能夠專門"},{"start":12680.15,"end":12681.15,"text":"針對能源設施"},{"start":12681.15,"end":12683.15,"text":"如何扶靈畢效應"},{"start":12683.15,"end":12685.15,"text":"去做一些這個社科方面的"},{"start":12685.15,"end":12686.15,"text":"研究調查"},{"start":12686.15,"end":12687.15,"text":"這是中研院還是"},{"start":12687.15,"end":12689.15,"text":"還是國科會的"},{"start":12690.13,"end":12691.13,"text":"我看你們這邊有一個"},{"start":12691.13,"end":12693.13,"text":"人文及社會科學研究發展處"},{"start":12693.13,"end":12694.13,"text":"對 我們有支援"},{"start":12694.13,"end":12696.13,"text":"支持人設的研究"},{"start":12696.13,"end":12697.13,"text":"是 那你們有沒有那個"},{"start":12697.13,"end":12699.13,"text":"那個叫做科專計畫"},{"start":12700.86,"end":12702.86,"text":"國科會的不是叫科專計畫"},{"start":12702.86,"end":12703.86,"text":"那你們叫什麼"},{"start":12703.86,"end":12704.86,"text":"我們就是研究計畫"},{"start":12704.86,"end":12705.86,"text":"有研究計畫"},{"start":12705.86,"end":12706.86,"text":"那科專計畫是由誰來分配"},{"start":12706.86,"end":12707.86,"text":"由國發會來分配"},{"start":12708.67,"end":12709.67,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":12709.67,"end":12710.67,"text":"有經濟部來分配"},{"start":12710.67,"end":12711.67,"text":"經濟部它不是說"},{"start":12711.67,"end":12712.67,"text":"它說是用國科會分配完了之後"},{"start":12712.67,"end":12713.67,"text":"它用他們分配給他的部分"},{"start":12715.37,"end":12716.37,"text":"來 你們問問看"},{"start":12716.37,"end":12717.37,"text":"後面有人要回答了"},{"start":12717.37,"end":12719.37,"text":"那應該是指科技計畫"},{"start":12719.37,"end":12720.37,"text":"科技計畫"},{"start":12720.37,"end":12721.37,"text":"科技計畫 好"},{"start":12721.37,"end":12722.37,"text":"那麼未來的科技計畫"},{"start":12722.37,"end":12724.37,"text":"可不可以在對其他部會"},{"start":12724.37,"end":12725.37,"text":"匡定的額度內"},{"start":12725.37,"end":12727.37,"text":"或者說你們優先來支援"},{"start":12727.37,"end":12729.37,"text":"這樣社科的調查跟研究"},{"start":12730.11,"end":12731.11,"text":"還是中英院長自告奮勇"},{"start":12732.7,"end":12734.7,"text":"中英院你們也有法律研究所"},{"start":12734.7,"end":12736.7,"text":"科技計畫是這樣"},{"start":12736.7,"end":12740.7,"text":"就是各部會它會提出一個申請"},{"start":12740.7,"end":12741.7,"text":"由我們這邊來做一個"},{"start":12741.7,"end":12742.7,"text":"希望你們未來的審核的時候"},{"start":12742.7,"end":12744.7,"text":"要多多支持這樣的社科研究"},{"start":12744.7,"end":12746.7,"text":"好嗎 好 謝謝"},{"start":12747.37,"end":12749.37,"text":"謝謝莊家濱委員的質詢"},{"start":12749.37,"end":12750.37,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":12750.37,"end":12754.37,"text":"接下來有請楊瓊英委員進行詢答"},{"start":12758.53,"end":12759.53,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12761.69,"end":12763.69,"text":"好 謝謝主席楊瓊英發言"},{"start":12763.69,"end":12765.69,"text":"首先來邀請"},{"start":12766.78,"end":12768.78,"text":"這個莊園院"},{"start":12771.14,"end":12772.14,"text":"跟國科會"},{"start":12773.3,"end":12775.3,"text":"好 楊委員走"},{"start":12776.27,"end":12778.27,"text":"賴總統上任之後宣示"},{"start":12778.27,"end":12781.27,"text":"我們每一年要編列300億元"},{"start":12781.27,"end":12783.27,"text":"大概就是每年10億元"},{"start":12783.27,"end":12787.27,"text":"來推動人工智慧AI的資料"},{"start":12787.27,"end":12790.27,"text":"中心跟相關的發展"},{"start":12790.27,"end":12792.27,"text":"我們也大家就全球性"},{"start":12792.27,"end":12795.27,"text":"AI它不是這個科技的議題"},{"start":12795.27,"end":12796.27,"text":"它更是國安"},{"start":12796.27,"end":12799.27,"text":"更是產業與民主治理的"},{"start":12799.27,"end":12801.27,"text":"一個核心競爭力"},{"start":12801.27,"end":12804.27,"text":"所以現在全球都在談的是"},{"start":12804.27,"end":12806.27,"text":"AI的主權"},{"start":12806.27,"end":12809.27,"text":"那誰能夠掌控這個模型資料"},{"start":12809.27,"end":12811.27,"text":"還有算力呢"},{"start":12811.27,"end":12814.27,"text":"誰能夠決定這個規則"},{"start":12814.27,"end":12816.27,"text":"所以我們今天來討論"},{"start":12816.27,"end":12819.27,"text":"AI的學門建構應用"},{"start":12819.27,"end":12822.27,"text":"以及它的研究應用倫理"},{"start":12822.27,"end":12826.27,"text":"還有它的數位透明化的配套措施"},{"start":12826.27,"end":12830.27,"text":"在整個學門的建構的方面"},{"start":12830.27,"end":12833.27,"text":"AI的核心學門應該包括了"},{"start":12833.27,"end":12835.27,"text":"基礎的一個模型"},{"start":12835.27,"end":12837.27,"text":"語言的模型"},{"start":12837.27,"end":12839.27,"text":"還有AI的安全"},{"start":12839.72,"end":12842.72,"text":"計算的這個社會科學"},{"start":12842.72,"end":12844.72,"text":"所以本席要請教"},{"start":12844.72,"end":12845.72,"text":"中研院跟博客會"},{"start":12845.72,"end":12848.72,"text":"目前我們的AI研究"},{"start":12848.72,"end":12851.72,"text":"你是不是有透過進行"},{"start":12851.72,"end":12853.72,"text":"跨領域的一個整合"},{"start":12853.72,"end":12858.72,"text":"有沒有完整的AI的基礎"},{"start":12858.72,"end":12860.72,"text":"學門的地圖"},{"start":12860.72,"end":12864.72,"text":"那因為外界都會有一個想法"},{"start":12864.72,"end":12865.72,"text":"跟你說就是說"},{"start":12865.72,"end":12868.72,"text":"是不是會偏重在晶片"},{"start":12868.72,"end":12870.72,"text":"跟製造的這個方面"},{"start":12870.72,"end":12873.72,"text":"而忽略了整個模型的研究"},{"start":12873.72,"end":12875.72,"text":"或者是AI的一個倫理"},{"start":12875.72,"end":12878.72,"text":"跟社會影響的一個研究方面"},{"start":12878.72,"end":12879.72,"text":"來請回答"},{"start":12879.72,"end":12882.72,"text":"好謝謝楊委員你的問題很好"},{"start":12882.72,"end":12884.72,"text":"那我們中研院在做"},{"start":12884.72,"end":12886.72,"text":"就是剛才我報告中提到"},{"start":12886.72,"end":12888.72,"text":"我們非常強調人文"},{"start":12888.72,"end":12890.72,"text":"跟科學的創新研究"},{"start":12890.72,"end":12893.72,"text":"那人文方面因為它本身"},{"start":12893.72,"end":12895.72,"text":"過去資訊的背景不是那麼強"},{"start":12895.72,"end":12897.72,"text":"所以我們就鼓勵了"},{"start":12897.72,"end":12899.72,"text":"我們成立一個AI辦公室"},{"start":12899.72,"end":12901.72,"text":"鼓勵了跨領域的研究"},{"start":12901.72,"end":12903.72,"text":"所以很多資訊方面的人才"},{"start":12903.72,"end":12904.72,"text":"會來協助我們"},{"start":12904.72,"end":12907.72,"text":"那另外比如說我們的廖所長"},{"start":12907.72,"end":12908.72,"text":"他做的模型"},{"start":12908.72,"end":12911.72,"text":"他原來是資訊非常強的背景"},{"start":12911.72,"end":12913.72,"text":"那最近也跟生命科學人合作"},{"start":12913.72,"end":12918.72,"text":"去做這個像這個愛知海默症"},{"start":12918.72,"end":12920.72,"text":"的相關的行為研究"},{"start":12920.72,"end":12923.72,"text":"我想我們中研院有這個條件"},{"start":12923.72,"end":12925.72,"text":"也有這方面的人才"},{"start":12925.72,"end":12927.72,"text":"我們也做這個跨領域的研究"},{"start":12927.72,"end":12930.72,"text":"但是我們不可能就是包山包海都做"},{"start":12930.72,"end":12934.72,"text":"那就看我們的人力的相對強項在哪裡"},{"start":12934.72,"end":12936.72,"text":"那我過去我的了解是"},{"start":12936.72,"end":12938.72,"text":"雖然感覺上說我們投資AI很多"},{"start":12938.72,"end":12940.72,"text":"但是相比起來還算少"},{"start":12940.72,"end":12941.72,"text":"一個是人的問題"},{"start":12941.72,"end":12943.72,"text":"一個是錢的問題"},{"start":12943.72,"end":12944.72,"text":"我們要全面發展"},{"start":12944.72,"end":12946.72,"text":"還是由我們本身的限制"},{"start":12946.72,"end":12948.72,"text":"還是會面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":12948.72,"end":12949.72,"text":"我們有這個信心"},{"start":12949.72,"end":12950.72,"text":"有這個軌道"},{"start":12950.72,"end":12951.72,"text":"但是你還是認為"},{"start":12951.72,"end":12953.72,"text":"有所不足的地方"},{"start":12955.41,"end":12957.41,"text":"國科院這邊跟委員回報"},{"start":12957.41,"end":12961.41,"text":"其實AI說實在應該每個學門"},{"start":12961.41,"end":12963.41,"text":"我們其實是每個學門都有"},{"start":12963.41,"end":12965.41,"text":"所以這個跨領域整合"},{"start":12965.41,"end":12968.41,"text":"其實我們早就已經在做進行"},{"start":12968.41,"end":12970.41,"text":"我們不管在生科領域也好"},{"start":12970.41,"end":12972.41,"text":"社科領域 人設領域也好"},{"start":12972.41,"end":12975.41,"text":"自然領域也好 防災領域也好"},{"start":12975.41,"end":12976.41,"text":"我們都有AI的導入"},{"start":12976.41,"end":12979.41,"text":"所以這個跨領域整合是本來就在做的"},{"start":12979.41,"end":12983.41,"text":"那國科院我們也有在做這個AI的盤點"},{"start":12983.41,"end":12984.41,"text":"這個非常重要"},{"start":12984.41,"end":12985.41,"text":"尤其這個盤點"},{"start":12985.41,"end":12987.41,"text":"因為現在全球性"},{"start":12987.41,"end":12989.41,"text":"每一個領域都是必要的"},{"start":12989.41,"end":12990.41,"text":"都是必要的"},{"start":12990.41,"end":12992.41,"text":"好 我們也請數位"},{"start":12995.02,"end":12996.02,"text":"來"},{"start":12996.47,"end":12998.47,"text":"二月二五年十二月二十三號"},{"start":12998.47,"end":13002.47,"text":"我們立法院通過了人工智慧基本法"},{"start":13002.47,"end":13004.47,"text":"它等於是我國第一部"},{"start":13004.47,"end":13008.47,"text":"法律未接的人工智慧的相關規範"},{"start":13008.47,"end":13012.47,"text":"同時我們也預估在兩年內"},{"start":13012.47,"end":13016.47,"text":"要去完成相關的法治領域"},{"start":13016.47,"end":13019.47,"text":"可以說是非常細部的部分"},{"start":13019.47,"end":13022.47,"text":"完善的相關法治"},{"start":13022.47,"end":13025.47,"text":"以及制定相關的執法跟配套措施"},{"start":13025.47,"end":13029.47,"text":"這是我們要一直努力要去完成的"},{"start":13029.47,"end":13031.47,"text":"那財訊方面"},{"start":13031.47,"end":13034.47,"text":"它提出了上市櫃企業副總"},{"start":13035.89,"end":13037.89,"text":"這個級以上的高階主管"},{"start":13037.89,"end":13042.89,"text":"他也提出了AI的時代大調查"},{"start":13042.89,"end":13044.89,"text":"顯示有六成的企業"},{"start":13044.89,"end":13047.89,"text":"知道政府正在推動AI的政策"},{"start":13047.89,"end":13050.89,"text":"但是多數對於立法整個的過程"},{"start":13050.89,"end":13052.89,"text":"它並不是很嚴肅"},{"start":13052.89,"end":13056.89,"text":"所以也有三成認為這個政策"},{"start":13056.89,"end":13057.89,"text":"到目前為止"},{"start":13057.89,"end":13058.89,"text":"它沒什麼感受"},{"start":13058.89,"end":13061.89,"text":"所以在國科費方面"},{"start":13061.89,"end":13063.89,"text":"我們相關雖然有訂到"},{"start":13063.89,"end":13065.89,"text":"這樣的一個執法時間"},{"start":13065.89,"end":13068.89,"text":"所以我個人要請問"},{"start":13068.89,"end":13070.89,"text":"基本法通過之後"},{"start":13070.89,"end":13072.89,"text":"那你的這個國科會"},{"start":13072.89,"end":13075.89,"text":"你的配套以及執法的修訂"},{"start":13075.89,"end":13077.89,"text":"你們現在的進度呢"},{"start":13078.77,"end":13080.77,"text":"跟委員報告現在"},{"start":13080.77,"end":13082.77,"text":"我們透過行政院的三政委平台"},{"start":13082.77,"end":13084.77,"text":"正在做執法的盤點跟修正"},{"start":13084.77,"end":13086.77,"text":"執法的盤點跟修正"},{"start":13086.77,"end":13088.77,"text":"所以這個時間是一個關鍵時刻"},{"start":13088.77,"end":13090.77,"text":"特別針對於加強企業"},{"start":13090.77,"end":13094.77,"text":"對於政策了解的這個程度"},{"start":13094.77,"end":13096.77,"text":"我個人認為這一點是在國科會"},{"start":13096.77,"end":13100.77,"text":"你在制定很多的相關的制度"},{"start":13100.77,"end":13101.77,"text":"跟執法的時候"},{"start":13101.77,"end":13105.77,"text":"這一點企業的部分務必一定要加入"},{"start":13105.77,"end":13107.77,"text":"這個因子進去喔國科會"},{"start":13107.77,"end":13110.77,"text":"那麼所以在整個台灣AI治理的"},{"start":13110.77,"end":13111.77,"text":"三個核心面向"},{"start":13111.77,"end":13114.77,"text":"包括制度的一個強度"},{"start":13114.77,"end":13117.77,"text":"組成的能力跟透明的一個治理"},{"start":13117.77,"end":13120.77,"text":"我們看到雖然我們目前在動"},{"start":13120.77,"end":13122.77,"text":"但是如果跟歐美地區來比較起來"},{"start":13122.77,"end":13126.77,"text":"似乎我們還有很大的一個空間"},{"start":13126.77,"end":13127.77,"text":"去追喔"},{"start":13127.77,"end":13129.77,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情況之下"},{"start":13129.77,"end":13132.77,"text":"那歐盟它已經有完整的一個法制"},{"start":13132.77,"end":13135.77,"text":"美國也努力在開發這個模型喔"},{"start":13135.77,"end":13139.77,"text":"我們現在是在整個基本的一個框架"},{"start":13139.77,"end":13142.77,"text":"那歐盟有AI的HT"},{"start":13142.77,"end":13143.77,"text":"它也有罰則"},{"start":13143.77,"end":13145.77,"text":"有風險的一個分歧喔"},{"start":13145.77,"end":13148.77,"text":"所以國科會跟訴訪部也就是說"},{"start":13148.77,"end":13153.77,"text":"我們是否針對於高風險AI強制的"},{"start":13153.77,"end":13154.77,"text":"一個審查制度"},{"start":13154.77,"end":13158.77,"text":"那我們這個制度要怎麼樣去建立"},{"start":13158.77,"end":13162.77,"text":"而且特別在AI的一個責任歸屬的"},{"start":13162.77,"end":13164.77,"text":"一個制度也是在你們現在"},{"start":13164.77,"end":13167.77,"text":"在你們現在在修正這些執法裡頭"},{"start":13167.77,"end":13168.77,"text":"非常重要的元素"},{"start":13168.77,"end":13170.77,"text":"訴訪部請先回答"},{"start":13170.77,"end":13172.77,"text":"好 是 跟委員報告"},{"start":13172.77,"end":13174.77,"text":"人工智慧基本法通過以後"},{"start":13174.77,"end":13179.77,"text":"訴訪部已經把人工智慧風險分類的框架"},{"start":13179.77,"end":13181.77,"text":"已經送到行政院"},{"start":13181.77,"end":13183.77,"text":"那在同一個時間"},{"start":13183.77,"end":13185.77,"text":"其實國科會指導底下"},{"start":13185.77,"end":13187.77,"text":"還有三政委平台的指導底下"},{"start":13187.77,"end":13189.77,"text":"我們已經跟各部會開始"},{"start":13189.77,"end":13193.77,"text":"基於風險框架去做協作"},{"start":13193.77,"end":13196.77,"text":"盤點應該修訂哪些法律"},{"start":13196.77,"end":13197.77,"text":"然後剛剛有提到"},{"start":13197.77,"end":13198.77,"text":"受到行政院的"},{"start":13198.77,"end":13202.77,"text":"是 然後特別要跟委員報告的"},{"start":13202.77,"end":13206.77,"text":"在跟國外的這個對接的部分喔"},{"start":13206.77,"end":13208.77,"text":"歐盟其實它的"},{"start":13208.77,"end":13210.77,"text":"歐盟的這個人工智慧法"},{"start":13210.77,"end":13212.77,"text":"因為整個架構太過複雜"},{"start":13212.77,"end":13214.77,"text":"而且缺乏彈性"},{"start":13214.77,"end":13219.77,"text":"所以其實他們有提出一個新的這個法案"},{"start":13219.77,"end":13222.77,"text":"是在討論修正他們叫做EU的Omnimus"},{"start":13222.77,"end":13227.77,"text":"這個法案他們想要簡化某些流程"},{"start":13227.77,"end":13230.77,"text":"那在我們針對高風險的部分呢"},{"start":13230.77,"end":13232.77,"text":"我們會協助各部會"},{"start":13232.77,"end":13236.77,"text":"去針對各部會所主管的業務範圍內"},{"start":13236.77,"end":13240.77,"text":"特定的AI的應用場景底下的風險"},{"start":13240.77,"end":13242.77,"text":"是不是屬於高風險"},{"start":13242.77,"end":13244.77,"text":"會去做評估和識別"},{"start":13244.77,"end":13246.77,"text":"那如果是高風險的話"},{"start":13246.77,"end":13248.77,"text":"依據基本法的規定"},{"start":13248.77,"end":13250.77,"text":"會需要有評測工具"},{"start":13250.77,"end":13252.77,"text":"那會需要有標示"},{"start":13252.77,"end":13254.77,"text":"那會需要有這個"},{"start":13254.77,"end":13258.77,"text":"會需要有這個救濟或是保險的制度"},{"start":13258.77,"end":13260.77,"text":"那這些因應呢"},{"start":13260.77,"end":13262.77,"text":"我們都會跟各部會去協助"},{"start":13262.77,"end":13264.77,"text":"那我們同時也跟今晚會"},{"start":13264.77,"end":13266.77,"text":"也有在討論在保險的部分"},{"start":13266.77,"end":13268.77,"text":"是不是可以有一些"},{"start":13268.77,"end":13270.77,"text":"就是推動的方向"},{"start":13270.77,"end":13274.77,"text":"那因為各部會對主管的業務範圍內"},{"start":13274.77,"end":13277.77,"text":"AI的應用場景必須要先做盤點"},{"start":13277.77,"end":13279.77,"text":"必須要先做盤點"},{"start":13279.77,"end":13281.77,"text":"我們會針對比較成熟的"},{"start":13281.77,"end":13285.77,"text":"那應用廣泛的風險程度高的"},{"start":13285.77,"end":13286.77,"text":"是的 是的"},{"start":13286.77,"end":13287.77,"text":"這非常重要"},{"start":13287.77,"end":13289.77,"text":"因為世界各國他們走在前端"},{"start":13289.77,"end":13291.77,"text":"有很多他的優缺點"},{"start":13291.77,"end":13293.77,"text":"我們可以拿來做這個參考"},{"start":13293.77,"end":13295.77,"text":"國會要不要補充"},{"start":13297.79,"end":13299.79,"text":"好"},{"start":13299.79,"end":13301.79,"text":"國會跟蜀華部會一起努力"},{"start":13301.79,"end":13302.79,"text":"是"},{"start":13302.79,"end":13303.79,"text":"一起努力"},{"start":13303.79,"end":13305.79,"text":"接下來本席要跟討論的"},{"start":13305.79,"end":13307.79,"text":"就是剛剛鍾延遠說"},{"start":13307.79,"end":13309.79,"text":"我們有這個能力"},{"start":13309.79,"end":13312.79,"text":"但是有很多的這個能力"},{"start":13312.79,"end":13313.79,"text":"跟預算方面"},{"start":13313.79,"end":13315.79,"text":"他們也提出"},{"start":13315.79,"end":13318.79,"text":"所以我個人還是要討論一個就是說"},{"start":13319.73,"end":13321.73,"text":"在我們所有的企業界裡頭"},{"start":13321.73,"end":13322.73,"text":"我們到底要怎麼樣"},{"start":13322.73,"end":13324.73,"text":"尤其國科會這邊"},{"start":13324.73,"end":13327.73,"text":"我們要怎麼樣能夠協助企業"},{"start":13327.73,"end":13329.73,"text":"來做這個運用AI"},{"start":13329.73,"end":13331.73,"text":"現在似乎所有的企業"},{"start":13331.73,"end":13333.73,"text":"大家都趕快派人出來"},{"start":13333.73,"end":13337.73,"text":"來學習也就AI人才的一個訓練"},{"start":13337.73,"end":13339.73,"text":"在目前的情況是如此"},{"start":13339.73,"end":13341.73,"text":"但是我們也看到"},{"start":13341.73,"end":13342.73,"text":"有一個做統計"},{"start":13342.73,"end":13344.73,"text":"也超過五成的受訪人員"},{"start":13344.73,"end":13347.73,"text":"認為高科技最快能夠導入AI"},{"start":13347.73,"end":13349.73,"text":"消費跟零售服務業金融業"},{"start":13349.73,"end":13352.73,"text":"大概是15.9%"},{"start":13352.73,"end":13353.73,"text":"醫療生技的部分"},{"start":13353.73,"end":13355.73,"text":"大概是11.2%"},{"start":13355.73,"end":13357.73,"text":"國防軍工是4%"},{"start":13357.73,"end":13361.73,"text":"傳統產業製造僅有2%"},{"start":13361.73,"end":13364.73,"text":"所以我個人還是要請政府"},{"start":13364.73,"end":13366.73,"text":"無論如何要加強協助"},{"start":13366.73,"end":13370.73,"text":"中小企業的一個進行轉型"},{"start":13370.73,"end":13373.73,"text":"因為我們顯示出有四成的業者"},{"start":13373.73,"end":13375.73,"text":"包括傳統產業跟科技的廠商"},{"start":13375.73,"end":13379.73,"text":"都希望政府可以來加重這一塊"},{"start":13379.73,"end":13382.73,"text":"同時也希望在專屬的補助"},{"start":13382.73,"end":13384.73,"text":"跟獎勵方面可以有更多的"},{"start":13386.34,"end":13389.34,"text":"專門的這個部分"},{"start":13389.34,"end":13391.34,"text":"加速AI的一個落地"},{"start":13391.34,"end":13393.34,"text":"當然這必須要跨部位"},{"start":13393.34,"end":13397.34,"text":"但是三位是靈魂指揮中心"},{"start":13397.34,"end":13398.34,"text":"來"},{"start":13398.34,"end":13400.34,"text":"這個謝謝委員委的報告"},{"start":13401.29,"end":13403.29,"text":"其實我們很少就注意到這個問題"},{"start":13403.29,"end":13406.29,"text":"我們覺得最快的方式是從業界來訓練"},{"start":13406.29,"end":13408.29,"text":"所以三四年前我們成立一個"},{"start":13408.29,"end":13410.29,"text":"叫人工智慧學校"},{"start":13410.29,"end":13411.29,"text":"不屬於我們中間的編制"},{"start":13411.29,"end":13414.29,"text":"但是現在董事長是我們的院長"},{"start":13414.29,"end":13417.29,"text":"但是所有的裡面的老師"},{"start":13417.29,"end":13419.29,"text":"包括執行長"},{"start":13419.29,"end":13421.29,"text":"像都是我們院裡的人員"},{"start":13421.29,"end":13425.29,"text":"我們就從各個產業裡面去挑"},{"start":13425.29,"end":13426.29,"text":"他們來報名"},{"start":13426.29,"end":13428.29,"text":"我們覺得他對業務最少"},{"start":13428.29,"end":13431.29,"text":"那從這裡去訓練他們會最快"},{"start":13431.29,"end":13433.29,"text":"結果我們現在回報是"},{"start":13433.29,"end":13435.29,"text":"很多產業都非常感謝我們"},{"start":13435.29,"end":13437.29,"text":"幫他們訓練這方面的人才"},{"start":13437.29,"end":13438.29,"text":"非常好"},{"start":13438.29,"end":13441.29,"text":"所以這個部分怎麼樣加強國科會"},{"start":13441.29,"end":13443.29,"text":"在整個企業界裡頭"},{"start":13443.29,"end":13445.29,"text":"我們到底要怎麼樣去協助他們"},{"start":13445.29,"end":13446.29,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":13446.29,"end":13448.29,"text":"其實國科會跟經濟部"},{"start":13448.29,"end":13450.29,"text":"我們有一起合作"},{"start":13450.29,"end":13454.29,"text":"在推動這個中小企業導入AI的部分"},{"start":13454.29,"end":13456.29,"text":"我們希望這個中小企業"},{"start":13456.29,"end":13458.29,"text":"跟學界的老師可以相互合作"},{"start":13458.29,"end":13461.29,"text":"來盡早的將AI導入他們的這個"},{"start":13461.29,"end":13464.29,"text":"目前也就是產業界都非常積極"},{"start":13464.29,"end":13467.29,"text":"請他們的人員出來學習AI的人才"},{"start":13467.29,"end":13470.29,"text":"但是學了之後他到底要怎麼放"},{"start":13470.29,"end":13472.29,"text":"第二階段這個才是重點"},{"start":13472.29,"end":13475.29,"text":"所以你把你的方案數面資料給本席"},{"start":13475.29,"end":13476.29,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13476.29,"end":13479.29,"text":"謝謝楊崇英委員的質詢"},{"start":13479.29,"end":13480.29,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":13480.29,"end":13485.29,"text":"接下來有請張雅玲委員進行詢答"},{"start":13491.92,"end":13492.92,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13492.92,"end":13494.92,"text":"有請書發部次長侯次長"},{"start":13495.38,"end":13496.38,"text":"請書發部"},{"start":13497.12,"end":13498.12,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13498.61,"end":13499.61,"text":"啊 次長好"},{"start":13499.61,"end":13502.61,"text":"看到你在這邊質詢你"},{"start":13502.61,"end":13505.61,"text":"畢竟我們以前過去是一起寫AI基本法的"},{"start":13505.61,"end":13506.61,"text":"現在一起"},{"start":13506.61,"end":13507.61,"text":"好 那"},{"start":13508.68,"end":13510.68,"text":"我想接下來就想要請教有關於"},{"start":13510.68,"end":13513.68,"text":"因為其實在AI基本法我一直非常關注的一個重點"},{"start":13513.68,"end":13515.68,"text":"就是有關於兒少的影響的部分"},{"start":13515.68,"end":13518.68,"text":"所以在這次的兒少影響性評估裡面"},{"start":13518.68,"end":13520.68,"text":"我有看到說我們做了這個評估"},{"start":13520.68,"end":13522.68,"text":"但是其實裡面完全沒有兒少的聲音"},{"start":13522.68,"end":13525.68,"text":"那書發部是告訴我們說因為時間有限"},{"start":13525.68,"end":13526.68,"text":"所以沒有辦法參與"},{"start":13526.68,"end":13528.68,"text":"但是其實在行政院內政處"},{"start":13528.68,"end":13531.68,"text":"在專家諮詢會議上面也非常明確的建議說"},{"start":13531.68,"end":13534.68,"text":"應該要邀請我們的兒選會的兒少委員"},{"start":13534.68,"end":13535.68,"text":"所以我想要了解"},{"start":13535.68,"end":13538.68,"text":"為什麼我們還是沒有納入任何一位兒少的聲音呢"},{"start":13540.35,"end":13546.35,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為在12月23號基本法通過以後"},{"start":13546.35,"end":13552.35,"text":"附帶決議要求我們在三個月內要做三個影響評估報告"},{"start":13552.35,"end":13557.35,"text":"那我們在這個過程中因為又"},{"start":13557.99,"end":13560.99,"text":"牽涉到就是中間有過年的時間"},{"start":13560.99,"end":13562.99,"text":"那需要去做各部會的協調"},{"start":13562.99,"end":13565.99,"text":"因為這個影響評估也不是"},{"start":13565.99,"end":13568.99,"text":"就是不是只有書發部主責"},{"start":13568.99,"end":13572.99,"text":"那還有其他包括是由吳政委這邊"},{"start":13572.99,"end":13579.99,"text":"然後還有這個就是跟院內的這個就是性評處人權處"},{"start":13579.99,"end":13582.99,"text":"坦白說但我想因為我們還是可以邀請嘛"},{"start":13582.99,"end":13585.99,"text":"因為其實我們自己行政院本來就有兒選會了嘛"},{"start":13585.99,"end":13588.99,"text":"我們接下來會持續滾動調整"},{"start":13588.99,"end":13589.99,"text":"不是故意不要請"},{"start":13589.99,"end":13592.99,"text":"我想因為這個兒少影響性評估的報告"},{"start":13592.99,"end":13594.99,"text":"它卻沒有兒少的聲音"},{"start":13594.99,"end":13596.99,"text":"我認為是一個蠻大的問題啦"},{"start":13596.99,"end":13599.99,"text":"所以我在想喔就是因為接下來"},{"start":13599.99,"end":13601.99,"text":"我待會會再跟你們討論這個問題"},{"start":13601.99,"end":13603.99,"text":"但是我現在有一個東西喔"},{"start":13603.99,"end":13605.99,"text":"就是在這一次的問卷裡面"},{"start":13605.99,"end":13608.99,"text":"我們雖然是參考了國際的風險管理通用的辦法"},{"start":13608.99,"end":13613.99,"text":"去把可能性跟影響程度上面做出了一些評分"},{"start":13613.99,"end":13616.99,"text":"但是我認為有一些是根本就不能夠評分"},{"start":13616.99,"end":13618.99,"text":"它應該直接列為禁止事項"},{"start":13618.99,"end":13621.99,"text":"例如就是說兒少性剝削的影像"},{"start":13621.99,"end":13624.99,"text":"生成的問題這些其實根本"},{"start":13624.99,"end":13627.99,"text":"或是兒少詐騙的這個"},{"start":13627.99,"end":13631.99,"text":"這些勒索合成性影像的勒索等等的"},{"start":13631.99,"end":13636.99,"text":"這些都應該是直接列為禁止且不能夠被接受的事項"},{"start":13636.99,"end":13638.99,"text":"那展翅協會其實在會議之中"},{"start":13638.99,"end":13641.99,"text":"或是他們後續要跟我們反應的時候也都有提到"},{"start":13641.99,"end":13643.99,"text":"應該要有一條明確的界線"},{"start":13643.99,"end":13645.99,"text":"那我想不曉得說"},{"start":13645.99,"end":13647.99,"text":"這個次長您的看法又是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":13647.99,"end":13649.99,"text":"我是不是應該要一個明確的界線"},{"start":13649.99,"end":13651.99,"text":"直接說這個是完全禁止的事項"},{"start":13651.99,"end":13653.99,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":13653.99,"end":13656.99,"text":"我們在整個風險評估框架裡面"},{"start":13656.99,"end":13658.99,"text":"包括了四個步驟"},{"start":13658.99,"end":13662.99,"text":"第一個步驟是辨識這個盤點應用場景"},{"start":13662.99,"end":13665.99,"text":"那第二個步驟是在特定的應用場景底下"},{"start":13665.99,"end":13668.99,"text":"有哪些風險是識別風險"},{"start":13668.99,"end":13672.99,"text":"那第三個步驟是評估這些風險"},{"start":13673.75,"end":13675.75,"text":"的嚴重性和發生的可能性"},{"start":13675.75,"end":13678.75,"text":"那第四個步驟就是剛剛您說到的"},{"start":13678.75,"end":13680.75,"text":"到底針對哪些風險"},{"start":13680.75,"end":13683.75,"text":"我們要做什麼樣的因應措施"},{"start":13683.75,"end":13686.75,"text":"那這些因應措施確實包括了您說的"},{"start":13686.75,"end":13690.75,"text":"是不是直接要進採取禁止的措施"},{"start":13690.75,"end":13693.75,"text":"或者是必須要先審視"},{"start":13693.75,"end":13696.75,"text":"或是要用什麼樣子的方式來限制"},{"start":13696.75,"end":13698.75,"text":"那在這個評估報告裡面"},{"start":13698.75,"end":13701.75,"text":"我們其實做到第三步"},{"start":13701.75,"end":13704.75,"text":"那後續我們會持續其實已經開始"},{"start":13704.75,"end":13705.75,"text":"包括"},{"start":13705.75,"end":13708.75,"text":"會有第四條線直接把紅線畫出來"},{"start":13708.75,"end":13710.75,"text":"好那就非常好"},{"start":13710.75,"end":13712.75,"text":"因為我想就是因為次長您過去"},{"start":13712.75,"end":13714.75,"text":"對這個議題非常非常的關注"},{"start":13714.75,"end":13716.75,"text":"所以我相信就是說"},{"start":13716.75,"end":13718.75,"text":"我也期待說我們還是秉持這樣子的專業"},{"start":13718.75,"end":13721.75,"text":"在守護我們的兒少"},{"start":13721.75,"end":13723.75,"text":"就是在哪一條完全不可以跨越的紅線"},{"start":13723.75,"end":13725.75,"text":"就應該要直接把它採下去"},{"start":13725.75,"end":13726.75,"text":"列出一個明確的"},{"start":13726.75,"end":13727.75,"text":"所以接下來另外一個問題就是說"},{"start":13727.75,"end":13730.75,"text":"其實因為在很多的團體裡面"},{"start":13730.75,"end":13731.75,"text":"也有告訴我們"},{"start":13731.75,"end":13732.75,"text":"其實在你們自己的會議"},{"start":13732.75,"end":13733.75,"text":"應該都有收集到這些資料"},{"start":13733.75,"end":13735.75,"text":"就是說我們對於這個問卷上面"},{"start":13735.75,"end":13737.75,"text":"非常難以填寫"},{"start":13737.75,"end":13740.75,"text":"而且不是只有一個專家學者這樣子講"},{"start":13740.75,"end":13742.75,"text":"你可以看到光這個名單上面"},{"start":13742.75,"end":13744.75,"text":"就有五個人說這份問卷非常難填寫"},{"start":13744.75,"end":13747.75,"text":"所以您剛有提到說會做滾動式修正"},{"start":13747.75,"end":13749.75,"text":"但是如果用這個方式做滾動式修正"},{"start":13749.75,"end":13750.75,"text":"連大人都非常困難"},{"start":13750.75,"end":13752.75,"text":"兒少一定是更加困難"},{"start":13752.75,"end":13754.75,"text":"那對於這個部分的話"},{"start":13754.75,"end":13755.75,"text":"我們是不是會重新檢討"},{"start":13755.75,"end":13759.75,"text":"我們現在的一個研究的這個架構呢"},{"start":13761.43,"end":13763.43,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":13763.43,"end":13765.43,"text":"因為這一次其實是時程的關係"},{"start":13765.43,"end":13767.43,"text":"我們又希望盡量能夠"},{"start":13767.43,"end":13769.43,"text":"徵詢多數委員的意見"},{"start":13769.43,"end":13770.43,"text":"多數專家學者意見"},{"start":13770.43,"end":13773.43,"text":"因為當時要進行譬如說"},{"start":13773.43,"end":13774.43,"text":"工作法或是審議"},{"start":13774.43,"end":13775.43,"text":"了解了解因為時間有限"},{"start":13775.43,"end":13777.43,"text":"我想是不是未來我們其實"},{"start":13777.43,"end":13779.43,"text":"在這個現在的問卷架構之下"},{"start":13779.43,"end":13782.43,"text":"研究流程上面我們都會重新做設計"},{"start":13782.43,"end":13783.43,"text":"會的會的"},{"start":13783.43,"end":13784.43,"text":"因為不然這個到時候收集到的意見"},{"start":13784.43,"end":13786.43,"text":"要如何執行在現場"},{"start":13786.43,"end":13789.43,"text":"跟實務上面用都要非常的困難"},{"start":13789.43,"end":13791.43,"text":"那第二個就是回到我剛剛講的"},{"start":13791.43,"end":13793.43,"text":"我們還是需要納入兒少的聲音"},{"start":13793.43,"end":13795.43,"text":"那其實在過去呢"},{"start":13795.43,"end":13797.43,"text":"兒少大會裡面也有提到說"},{"start":13797.43,"end":13799.43,"text":"他們其實希望各個部會裡面呢"},{"start":13799.43,"end":13801.43,"text":"是不是都可以有這個"},{"start":13801.43,"end":13803.43,"text":"我們的兒權小組"},{"start":13803.43,"end":13805.43,"text":"那是不是也可以趁這一次呢"},{"start":13805.43,"end":13807.43,"text":"觸發部也來研議"},{"start":13807.43,"end":13809.43,"text":"是不是來成立我們自己的兒權小組"},{"start":13809.43,"end":13811.43,"text":"因為接下來我們要做滾動式修正嘛"},{"start":13811.43,"end":13813.43,"text":"因為AI的變化非常非常的快"},{"start":13813.43,"end":13815.43,"text":"是不是也可以就"},{"start":13815.43,"end":13817.43,"text":"來成立這樣子的兒權小組"},{"start":13817.43,"end":13819.43,"text":"那我們就可以更快的諮詢到這些"},{"start":13819.43,"end":13821.43,"text":"兒少代表的意見呢"},{"start":13821.43,"end":13823.43,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":13823.43,"end":13825.43,"text":"因為現在是跟各部會進行協作"},{"start":13825.43,"end":13827.43,"text":"那因為各部會都會"},{"start":13827.43,"end":13829.43,"text":"需要透過這個流程"},{"start":13829.43,"end":13831.43,"text":"所以我們的基本原則是"},{"start":13831.43,"end":13833.43,"text":"希望運用原有既有的"},{"start":13833.43,"end":13835.43,"text":"的機制"},{"start":13835.43,"end":13837.43,"text":"然後我們把這個新的觀點放進去"},{"start":13837.43,"end":13839.43,"text":"但是這樣子就是擔心時間會變"},{"start":13839.43,"end":13841.43,"text":"討論時間變小"},{"start":13841.43,"end":13843.43,"text":"變少嘛"},{"start":13843.43,"end":13845.43,"text":"一定會稀釋掉嘛"},{"start":13845.43,"end":13847.43,"text":"那衛福部這邊"},{"start":13847.43,"end":13849.43,"text":"因為我們其實在過程中都跟衛福部那邊"},{"start":13849.43,"end":13851.43,"text":"有聯繫請他們提供意見"},{"start":13851.43,"end":13853.43,"text":"名單 那我們會跟衛福部這邊"},{"start":13853.43,"end":13855.43,"text":"來做協作"},{"start":13855.43,"end":13857.43,"text":"那看怎麼樣能夠把這部分的聲音"},{"start":13857.43,"end":13859.43,"text":"盡量能夠具體呈現出來"},{"start":13859.43,"end":13861.43,"text":"我也認為這個非常重要"},{"start":13861.43,"end":13863.43,"text":"其實衛福部他這邊"},{"start":13863.43,"end":13865.43,"text":"本來就有自己的兒少的諮詢"},{"start":13865.43,"end":13867.43,"text":"推動小組會"},{"start":13867.43,"end":13869.43,"text":"他本來就有這個推動小組嘛"},{"start":13869.43,"end":13871.43,"text":"但是說我們是不是也就可以在觸發部"},{"start":13871.43,"end":13873.43,"text":"裡面也就來成立啊"},{"start":13873.43,"end":13875.43,"text":"我們就是會持續 因為兒少對於網路安全的這個"},{"start":13875.43,"end":13877.43,"text":"相關的議題來說"},{"start":13877.43,"end":13879.43,"text":"其實是非常脆弱的"},{"start":13879.43,"end":13881.43,"text":"我們應該要更積極的"},{"start":13881.43,"end":13883.43,"text":"去了解他們現實的狀況嘛"},{"start":13883.43,"end":13885.43,"text":"所以如果我們可以有一個兒少小組"},{"start":13885.43,"end":13887.43,"text":"我們就可以更積極的去了解他們的意見"},{"start":13887.43,"end":13889.43,"text":"收集他們的意見"},{"start":13889.43,"end":13891.43,"text":"我們可以研議是不是在兒少"},{"start":13891.43,"end":13893.43,"text":"成立一個在技術面"},{"start":13893.43,"end":13895.43,"text":"諮詢的這個"},{"start":13895.43,"end":13897.43,"text":"兒少的小組"},{"start":13897.43,"end":13899.43,"text":"但是還是要跟委員報告"},{"start":13899.43,"end":13901.43,"text":"因為各個主管機關"},{"start":13901.43,"end":13903.43,"text":"他們必須要去做最後因應的決定"},{"start":13903.43,"end":13905.43,"text":"所以像剛剛"},{"start":13905.43,"end":13907.43,"text":"我們識別出來這些非常"},{"start":13907.43,"end":13909.43,"text":"高優先序的風險"},{"start":13909.43,"end":13911.43,"text":"還是要由衛福部他們去"},{"start":13911.43,"end":13913.43,"text":"基於他們的職長決定因應的措施"},{"start":13913.43,"end":13915.43,"text":"像大家都還是要"},{"start":13915.43,"end":13917.43,"text":"諮詢嘛 然後互相對照嘛"},{"start":13917.43,"end":13919.43,"text":"那我們現在剛剛講的其實就是一個"},{"start":13919.43,"end":13921.43,"text":"更方便 速發部可以更積極"},{"start":13921.43,"end":13923.43,"text":"更快速及時的得到兒少的意見"},{"start":13923.43,"end":13925.43,"text":"所以這部分可以研議對嗎"},{"start":13925.43,"end":13927.43,"text":"是的 好 那大概什麼時候我們可以來"},{"start":13927.43,"end":13929.43,"text":"追蹤相關的結果"},{"start":13929.42,"end":13931.42,"text":"那我們一個月內給委員回應好嗎"},{"start":13931.42,"end":13933.42,"text":"謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":13933.96,"end":13935.96,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢"},{"start":13935.96,"end":13937.96,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":13937.96,"end":13939.96,"text":"接下來有請洪育祥委員"},{"start":13939.96,"end":13941.96,"text":"進行詢答"},{"start":13950.55,"end":13952.55,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":13952.55,"end":13956.55,"text":"我請中研院國科會速發部"},{"start":13956.99,"end":13960.99,"text":"請三個機關代表向備訓台 謝謝"},{"start":13963.05,"end":13967.05,"text":"好 各位長官好 來 下一頁"},{"start":13968.59,"end":13970.59,"text":"這邊的話 我剛看"},{"start":13970.59,"end":13972.59,"text":"就是看完你們這個"},{"start":13972.59,"end":13974.59,"text":"交出來的一個報告"},{"start":13974.59,"end":13976.59,"text":"我們在 因為今天的題目是"},{"start":13976.59,"end":13978.59,"text":"主權AI"},{"start":13978.59,"end":13980.59,"text":"那在當時"},{"start":13980.59,"end":13982.59,"text":"國科會 對不對"},{"start":13982.59,"end":13984.59,"text":"在我們的這個台德的這個"},{"start":13984.59,"end":13986.59,"text":"計畫裡頭的其實是很早"},{"start":13986.59,"end":13988.59,"text":"我這邊是先讚美中研院"},{"start":13988.59,"end":13990.59,"text":"起碼在報告裡頭"},{"start":13990.59,"end":13992.59,"text":"是有提到台德計畫"},{"start":13993.75,"end":13995.75,"text":"好幾次"},{"start":13995,"end":13997,"text":"國科會"},{"start":13996.95,"end":13998.95,"text":"速發部"},{"start":13999.08,"end":14001.08,"text":"部"},{"start":14001.78,"end":14003.78,"text":"國科會 這你自己生的孩子"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14005.78,"text":"現在應該放在哪裡"},{"start":14005.9,"end":14007.9,"text":"跟委員報告 現在台德還是在"},{"start":14007.9,"end":14009.9,"text":"持續進行當中 我們正在跟"},{"start":14009.9,"end":14011.9,"text":"還是在國科會 還是 跟中研院在合作"},{"start":14011.9,"end":14013.9,"text":"是"},{"start":14013.51,"end":14015.51,"text":"那主要的話誰負責"},{"start":14015.51,"end":14017.51,"text":"Ownership 誰負責"},{"start":14018.7,"end":14020.7,"text":"我們是一起在做協作啦"},{"start":14020.7,"end":14022.7,"text":"最怕聽到這種一起了"},{"start":14022.7,"end":14024.7,"text":"原有頭再有主啊"},{"start":14026.99,"end":14028.99,"text":"那個跟委員報告"},{"start":14028.99,"end":14030.99,"text":"我是中研院諮詢所所長廖宏源"},{"start":14030.99,"end":14032.99,"text":"那現在是這樣"},{"start":14032.99,"end":14034.99,"text":"整個台德計畫它是大型語言模型"},{"start":14034.99,"end":14036.99,"text":"那而且是非 反理制"},{"start":14036.99,"end":14038.99,"text":"這個我知道你只要回答我說"},{"start":14038.99,"end":14040.99,"text":"現在是這樣"},{"start":14040.99,"end":14042.99,"text":"現在的模型跟優化是在中研院"},{"start":14042.99,"end":14044.99,"text":"那我把"},{"start":14044.99,"end":14046.99,"text":"多模態的加進來了"},{"start":14046.99,"end":14048.99,"text":"也就是把影像"},{"start":14048.99,"end":14050.99,"text":"所以將來成功失敗"},{"start":14050.99,"end":14052.99,"text":"都是中研院負責"},{"start":14054.28,"end":14056.28,"text":"這件事情是這樣"},{"start":14056.28,"end":14058.28,"text":"有錢幫嗎"},{"start":14058.28,"end":14060.28,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":14060.28,"end":14062.28,"text":"這樣就好了"},{"start":14062.28,"end":14064.28,"text":"我只要這個答案就好"},{"start":14064.28,"end":14066.28,"text":"我參與過 我也是資訊領域的"},{"start":14066.28,"end":14068.28,"text":"國科會生的孩子"},{"start":14068.28,"end":14070.28,"text":"所以現在你來企劃企劃"},{"start":14070.28,"end":14072.28,"text":"就是中研院"},{"start":14072.28,"end":14074.28,"text":"如果企在不好怎麼樣都是中研院"},{"start":14075.25,"end":14077.25,"text":"這樣可以了"},{"start":14077.25,"end":14079.25,"text":"請中研院請回"},{"start":14080.4,"end":14082.4,"text":"中研院 我感謝你"},{"start":14082.4,"end":14084.4,"text":"中研院可以請回"},{"start":14084.4,"end":14086.4,"text":"其他兩位單位 蘇發部國科會留在台上"},{"start":14086.4,"end":14088.4,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14087.3,"end":14089.3,"text":"好"},{"start":14088.26,"end":14090.26,"text":"接下來的話"},{"start":14090.26,"end":14092.26,"text":"就是說政府針對台德計畫"},{"start":14092.26,"end":14094.26,"text":"投入這樣的預算"},{"start":14094.26,"end":14096.26,"text":"大概就是8億"},{"start":14094.95,"end":14096.95,"text":"因為這些預算一定都是國科會編的"},{"start":14096.95,"end":14098.95,"text":"國科會不給我們錢"},{"start":14098.95,"end":14100.95,"text":"我們其他部會也做不出來"},{"start":14100.95,"end":14102.95,"text":"到這邊的話"},{"start":14102.95,"end":14104.95,"text":"這個Government台德的話"},{"start":14104.95,"end":14106.95,"text":"就G-Tide 政府機關"},{"start":14106.95,"end":14108.95,"text":"作為示範場域"},{"start":14108.87,"end":14110.87,"text":"最後一個 誰負責"},{"start":14111.94,"end":14113.94,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":14113.94,"end":14115.94,"text":"G-Tide這一塊是國科會在"},{"start":14115.94,"end":14117.94,"text":"幫忙在做導入"},{"start":14117.94,"end":14119.94,"text":"現在是有在做試用"},{"start":14119.94,"end":14121.94,"text":"好 那多少機關用"},{"start":14121.94,"end":14123.94,"text":"使用狀況 頻率 反饋"},{"start":14125.17,"end":14127.17,"text":"誰可以幫我們回答"},{"start":14129.32,"end":14131.32,"text":"喔"},{"start":14131.68,"end":14133.68,"text":"G-Tide這一塊我們"},{"start":14133.68,"end":14135.68,"text":"數字上我不是那麼記得"},{"start":14135.68,"end":14137.68,"text":"好 那沒關係"},{"start":14137.68,"end":14139.68,"text":"交報告給我"},{"start":14139.68,"end":14141.68,"text":"一個禮拜內交報告給我"},{"start":14141.68,"end":14143.68,"text":"因為我們都號稱說"},{"start":14143.68,"end":14145.68,"text":"要讓政府機關作為專用的示範場域"},{"start":14145.68,"end":14147.68,"text":"自己生的小孩"},{"start":14147.68,"end":14149.68,"text":"如果自己不用"},{"start":14151.12,"end":14153.12,"text":"對不對 自己種的菜自己不吃"},{"start":14153.12,"end":14155.12,"text":"那別人要吃"},{"start":14155.12,"end":14157.12,"text":"很困難"},{"start":14156.59,"end":14158.59,"text":"再來 速發部"},{"start":14159.34,"end":14161.34,"text":"速發部在這裡頭"},{"start":14161.34,"end":14163.34,"text":"我也支持這個概念"},{"start":14163.34,"end":14165.34,"text":"打造主權AI的一個訓練的"},{"start":14165.34,"end":14167.34,"text":"語料庫"},{"start":14167.34,"end":14169.34,"text":"逾200個機關參與"},{"start":14169.34,"end":14171.34,"text":"上架逾3500筆資料集"},{"start":14171.34,"end":14173.34,"text":"累計逾12億個token"},{"start":14173.57,"end":14175.57,"text":"好 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剛剛講的這個"},{"start":14210.62,"end":14212.62,"text":"台德的計畫裡面"},{"start":14212.62,"end":14214.62,"text":"8億6900"},{"start":14214.62,"end":14216.62,"text":"13.8萬元裡面"},{"start":14216.62,"end":14218.62,"text":"並沒有包過語料庫的"},{"start":14218.62,"end":14220.62,"text":"建置"},{"start":14220.62,"end":14222.62,"text":"那語料庫的建置目前我們"},{"start":14222.62,"end":14224.62,"text":"有邀請到200個機關"},{"start":14224.62,"end":14226.62,"text":"參與"},{"start":14226.62,"end":14228.62,"text":"那每一個機關我們都非常非常感謝"},{"start":14228.62,"end":14230.62,"text":"他們"},{"start":14230.62,"end":14232.62,"text":"那實際上參與的機關其實他們都"},{"start":14232.62,"end":14234.62,"text":"盡可能地拿出了更多的"},{"start":14234.62,"end":14236.62,"text":"資料 那這些還沒有"},{"start":14236.62,"end":14238.62,"text":"參與的機關當然"},{"start":14238.62,"end":14240.62,"text":"委員也知道是"},{"start":14240.62,"end":14242.62,"text":"大多數我們會繼續努力"},{"start":14242.62,"end":14244.62,"text":"那也跟地方政府這邊"},{"start":14244.62,"end":14246.62,"text":"我們也持續在推進"},{"start":14246.62,"end":14248.62,"text":"當中"},{"start":14248.62,"end":14250.62,"text":"因為上次的話我有書面"},{"start":14250.62,"end":14252.62,"text":"質詢 但報告還沒給我"},{"start":14252.62,"end":14254.62,"text":"因為這裡頭牽扯到一個很重要的"},{"start":14254.62,"end":14256.62,"text":"問題"},{"start":14256.47,"end":14258.47,"text":"因為這些的資料"},{"start":14258.47,"end":14260.47,"text":"如果你要有價值的話"},{"start":14260.47,"end":14262.47,"text":"那有些東西你還是要去"},{"start":14262.47,"end":14264.47,"text":"購買 對不對"},{"start":14264.47,"end":14266.47,"text":"所以這裡頭到底是怎麼去"},{"start":14266.47,"end":14268.47,"text":"維運這個主角的語料庫的"},{"start":14268.47,"end":14270.47,"text":"那現在我的問題是說"},{"start":14270.47,"end":14272.47,"text":"台德有沒有用你的"},{"start":14272.47,"end":14274.47,"text":"語料庫"},{"start":14274.73,"end":14276.73,"text":"跟委員報告台德現在有在用"},{"start":14276.73,"end":14278.73,"text":"這個語料庫"},{"start":14278.73,"end":14280.73,"text":"有在用喔"},{"start":14280.73,"end":14282.73,"text":"我們在其實在語料庫"},{"start":14282.73,"end":14284.73,"text":"釋出前就已經跟"},{"start":14284.73,"end":14286.73,"text":"中研院已經討論"},{"start":14286.73,"end":14288.73,"text":"有就好 我怕的是沒有"},{"start":14288.73,"end":14290.73,"text":"再下一個"},{"start":14290.75,"end":14292.75,"text":"再來呢 因為今天"},{"start":14292.75,"end":14294.75,"text":"大概就比較倒楣"},{"start":14294.75,"end":14296.75,"text":"只有速發部在 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那台德的話"},{"start":14374.37,"end":14376.37,"text":"我們在去年99上架"},{"start":14376.37,"end":14378.37,"text":"這樣那個業者使用"},{"start":14378.37,"end":14380.37,"text":"不過相關的數據我們"},{"start":14380.37,"end":14382.37,"text":"要再回去再排一下 好"},{"start":14382.37,"end":14384.37,"text":"回去之後再交給我報告 好不好"},{"start":14384.37,"end":14386.37,"text":"我只想要知道 台灣花了"},{"start":14386.37,"end":14388.37,"text":"這麼多錢在做主權"},{"start":14388.37,"end":14390.37,"text":"做出來我當然是希望"},{"start":14390.37,"end":14392.37,"text":"都有 這個方向是支持的"},{"start":14392.37,"end":14394.37,"text":"但是我說過 政府"},{"start":14394.37,"end":14396.37,"text":"所有的執行"},{"start":14396.37,"end":14398.37,"text":"計畫 說實在的"},{"start":14398.37,"end":14400.37,"text":"都是執行力的問題"},{"start":14400.37,"end":14402.37,"text":"哪有你的KPI設的"},{"start":14402.37,"end":14404.37,"text":"對不對的問題"},{"start":14405.55,"end":14407.55,"text":"我想這個是給你們參考"},{"start":14407.55,"end":14409.55,"text":"因為我也太熟你們了"},{"start":14409.55,"end":14411.55,"text":"所以我們就省略客討"},{"start":14411.55,"end":14413.55,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":14413.5,"end":14415.5,"text":"好"},{"start":14414.63,"end":14416.63,"text":"在下一頁那張圖 對"},{"start":14417.04,"end":14419.04,"text":"我希望喔 因為國科會"},{"start":14419.04,"end":14421.04,"text":"其實呢"},{"start":14421.04,"end":14423.04,"text":"掌管著我們的科技預算"},{"start":14423.04,"end":14425.04,"text":"這一點我是非常有意見的"},{"start":14425.83,"end":14427.83,"text":"因為學術歸學術的科技預算"},{"start":14427.83,"end":14429.83,"text":"產業的歸產業的"},{"start":14429.83,"end":14431.83,"text":"其實產業的需求 產業要去"},{"start":14431.83,"end":14433.83,"text":"市場打仗的 這個最清楚"},{"start":14433.83,"end":14435.83,"text":"產業的技術"},{"start":14435.83,"end":14437.83,"text":"它可能沒有辦法那麼遠"},{"start":14437.91,"end":14439.91,"text":"但短中的這些要攻城掠地的"},{"start":14439.91,"end":14441.91,"text":"所以我在想"},{"start":14441.91,"end":14443.91,"text":"請各位去"},{"start":14443.91,"end":14445.91,"text":"借助一下韓國AI國家戰略"},{"start":14445.91,"end":14447.91,"text":"非常的清楚 非常清楚"},{"start":14448.14,"end":14450.14,"text":"第一步 我一定是先充實我的算力"},{"start":14451.67,"end":14453.67,"text":"所以你4萬張GPU追加"},{"start":14453.67,"end":14455.67,"text":"跟NVIDIA26個單"},{"start":14455.67,"end":14457.67,"text":"總共是30萬張 它會再往上堆疊"},{"start":14457.67,"end":14459.67,"text":"往上堆疊之後"},{"start":14459.67,"end":14461.67,"text":"它把公共領域的算力分配5萬張"},{"start":14463.36,"end":14465.36,"text":"民間領域的話就給它21萬張"},{"start":14465.36,"end":14467.36,"text":"也就是它總共跟NVIDIA買的26"},{"start":14467.36,"end":14469.36,"text":"加它原本的4萬"},{"start":14470.01,"end":14472.01,"text":"然後它的目的很清楚"},{"start":14472.01,"end":14474.01,"text":"我都會背了"},{"start":14473.87,"end":14475.87,"text":"所以我還不得不佩服我們的何正宇"},{"start":14475.87,"end":14477.87,"text":"韓國首席AI策略長"},{"start":14477.87,"end":14479.87,"text":"首席長"},{"start":14480.42,"end":14482.42,"text":"也就是說我先把我的"},{"start":14483,"end":14487,"text":"算力弄完 然後做完這些主權的AI的資料模型"},{"start":14487,"end":14489,"text":"下一個就是要發揮台灣的特色"},{"start":14489,"end":14491,"text":"就是你垂直領域的推論"},{"start":14493.11,"end":14495.11,"text":"那垂直領域的推論就很清楚"},{"start":14495.11,"end":14497.11,"text":"你有工廠 你有製造化"},{"start":14497.11,"end":14499.11,"text":"對不對 你有physical的AI"},{"start":14499.11,"end":14501.11,"text":"所以"},{"start":14501.38,"end":14503.38,"text":"不管是現代SK"},{"start":14504.38,"end":14506.38,"text":"這些的集團就會進來"},{"start":14506.75,"end":14510.75,"text":"這個東西的話你就會做到所謂的製造業的"},{"start":14510.75,"end":14512.75,"text":"做到這個智慧移動的"},{"start":14512.75,"end":14514.75,"text":"我想這一塊給各位參考"},{"start":14514.75,"end":14516.75,"text":"非常清楚"},{"start":14517.04,"end":14519.04,"text":"三階段的一個動程"},{"start":14519.04,"end":14521.04,"text":"然後整個最後是生態系出來"},{"start":14521.04,"end":14523.04,"text":"所以"},{"start":14522.71,"end":14524.71,"text":"如果我們的算力真的不夠"},{"start":14524.71,"end":14526.71,"text":"就請國科會"},{"start":14526.63,"end":14528.63,"text":"要幫忙"},{"start":14528.63,"end":14530.63,"text":"第二個很重要的喔"},{"start":14530.63,"end":14532.63,"text":"我最後一個"},{"start":14532.63,"end":14534.63,"text":"十秒就好"},{"start":14534.63,"end":14536.63,"text":"請國科會"},{"start":14534.13,"end":14536.13,"text":"不要只看硬體"},{"start":14536.13,"end":14538.13,"text":"我們AI整個軟體關鍵技術的發展"},{"start":14538.13,"end":14540.13,"text":"也多給我們這些產業"},{"start":14540.13,"end":14542.13,"text":"跟相關的部會的支持"},{"start":14542.13,"end":14544.13,"text":"好不好 謝謝"},{"start":14544.13,"end":14546.13,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14545.42,"end":14547.42,"text":"謝謝宏律翔委員的質詢"},{"start":14547.42,"end":14549.42,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":14551.58,"end":14553.58,"text":"下一位蘇青全委員"},{"start":14553.58,"end":14555.58,"text":"蘇青全委員"},{"start":14555.58,"end":14557.58,"text":"蘇青全委員不在"},{"start":14557.37,"end":14559.37,"text":"嚴寬恆委員"},{"start":14559.37,"end":14561.37,"text":"嚴寬恆委員不在"},{"start":14561.37,"end":14563.37,"text":"下一位"},{"start":14563.37,"end":14565.37,"text":"有請葉元芝委員進行詢答"},{"start":14575.46,"end":14577.46,"text":"朱先生好 麻煩請速發部國科會"},{"start":14578.26,"end":14580.26,"text":"好 有請速發部國科會"},{"start":14580.26,"end":14582.26,"text":"上備詢台"},{"start":14585.04,"end":14587.04,"text":"各位官員好"},{"start":14587.04,"end":14589.04,"text":"我們今天 我們現在講AI"},{"start":14589.04,"end":14591.04,"text":"其實台灣大家都說台灣的AI"},{"start":14591.04,"end":14593.04,"text":"算很蠻厲害 但是都是在講"},{"start":14593.04,"end":14595.04,"text":"硬體啦 包括像我們現在"},{"start":14595.04,"end":14597.04,"text":"股市都漲那麼多"},{"start":14597.04,"end":14599.04,"text":"其實很多都AI的相關 但都是"},{"start":14599.04,"end":14601.04,"text":"屬於硬體部分 但我覺得"},{"start":14601.04,"end":14603.04,"text":"在軟體這一塊明明台灣"},{"start":14603.04,"end":14605.04,"text":"有很好的條件"},{"start":14605.04,"end":14607.04,"text":"可是台灣的軟體 我不知道"},{"start":14607.04,"end":14609.04,"text":"現在政府對於軟體的投入"},{"start":14609.04,"end":14611.04,"text":"有多少"},{"start":14611.04,"end":14613.04,"text":"我們其實在上個世代"},{"start":14613.04,"end":14615.04,"text":"像電子支付啊 這些的"},{"start":14615.04,"end":14617.04,"text":"台灣的軟體好像都有一些並沒有跟上"},{"start":14617.04,"end":14619.04,"text":"社群媒體等等"},{"start":14619.04,"end":14621.04,"text":"那現在AI軟體"},{"start":14621.04,"end":14623.04,"text":"好不容易又有了一個新的機會"},{"start":14623.04,"end":14625.04,"text":"那到底我們對於AI"},{"start":14625.04,"end":14627.04,"text":"軟體的輔導"},{"start":14627.04,"end":14629.04,"text":"或者是給予的資源"},{"start":14629.04,"end":14631.04,"text":"可能出現我們AI"},{"start":14631.04,"end":14633.04,"text":"軟體的獨角獸 我覺得"},{"start":14633.04,"end":14635.04,"text":"政府也應該要去重視這一塊"},{"start":14635.04,"end":14637.04,"text":"那現在業界"},{"start":14637.04,"end":14639.04,"text":"比較重視的東西"},{"start":14639.04,"end":14641.04,"text":"最主要就是"},{"start":14641.04,"end":14643.04,"text":"在算力"},{"start":14643.04,"end":14645.04,"text":"因為大部分商業的軟體"},{"start":14645.04,"end":14647.04,"text":"就是AI軟體他們要做機器人的話"},{"start":14647.04,"end":14649.04,"text":"其實還是主要是跟"},{"start":14649.04,"end":14651.04,"text":"國外的三大雲在做"},{"start":14651.04,"end":14653.04,"text":"算力嘛 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對吧"},{"start":14744.7,"end":14746.7,"text":"那現在大概是要編列多少預算"},{"start":14746.7,"end":14748.7,"text":"來做"},{"start":14753.96,"end":14755.96,"text":"多少預算"},{"start":14758.28,"end":14760.28,"text":"跟委員會報 我們在AI新時代建設"},{"start":14760.28,"end":14762.28,"text":"裡面有大概編列"},{"start":14762.89,"end":14764.89,"text":"四十幾億在四十幾億做"},{"start":14766.35,"end":14768.35,"text":"編列四十幾億做算力"},{"start":14769.23,"end":14771.23,"text":"一百一十五年 經典模式"},{"start":14771.23,"end":14773.23,"text":"你終極目標是要花多少錢"},{"start":14775.12,"end":14777.12,"text":"終極目標"},{"start":14778.18,"end":14780.18,"text":"報告委員 那像我們在"},{"start":14780.18,"end":14782.18,"text":"沙崙的這個AI"},{"start":14782.18,"end":14784.18,"text":"Data Center的部分"},{"start":14784.18,"end":14786.18,"text":"我們目前就是在"},{"start":14786.18,"end":14788.18,"text":"就是主機"},{"start":14788.18,"end":14790.18,"text":"的部分大概有一百二十三億"},{"start":14790.18,"end":14792.18,"text":"四年到一百一十七年"},{"start":14792.18,"end":14794.18,"text":"四年編了一百二十三億"},{"start":14794.18,"end":14796.18,"text":"就是沙崙的這個AI Data Center"},{"start":14796.18,"end":14798.18,"text":"對 好 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不會"},{"start":14831.53,"end":14833.53,"text":"是我們國家的資源投入是一百多億"},{"start":14833.53,"end":14835.53,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":14835.53,"end":14837.53,"text":"你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":14837.16,"end":14839.16,"text":"各位委員們我們會再做持續的"},{"start":14839.16,"end":14841.16,"text":"你已經編到一百一十七年了"},{"start":14841.16,"end":14843.16,"text":"四年 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038.88,"end":15040.88,"text":"政府一直在講主權AI主權AI"},{"start":15040.88,"end":15042.88,"text":"但是說實在的"},{"start":15042.88,"end":15044.88,"text":"政府當然有發展主權AI"},{"start":15044.88,"end":15046.88,"text":"的需求"},{"start":15046.88,"end":15048.88,"text":"可是其實業界對於主權AI"},{"start":15048.88,"end":15050.88,"text":"期望不高"},{"start":15050.88,"end":15052.88,"text":"大家都認為這個"},{"start":15052.88,"end":15054.88,"text":"但是他們比較沒有關係"},{"start":15054.88,"end":15056.88,"text":"其實算力才是最相關的"},{"start":15056.88,"end":15058.88,"text":"如果假設我們想要輔導我們的AI"},{"start":15058.88,"end":15060.88,"text":"軟體的話真的算力這一塊"},{"start":15060.88,"end":15062.88,"text":"應該要多投入一些資源"},{"start":15062.88,"end":15064.88,"text":"比起主權AI啦"},{"start":15064.88,"end":15066.88,"text":"那我想問一下你們講的主權AI"},{"start":15066.88,"end":15068.88,"text":"是指大宇的模型嗎"},{"start":15068.88,"end":15070.88,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":15070.88,"end":15072.88,"text":"主權AI其實不只是"},{"start":15072.88,"end":15074.88,"text":"大宇的模型"},{"start":15074.88,"end":15076.88,"text":"有沒有包括"},{"start":15076.88,"end":15078.88,"text":"會包括大宇的模型但是更重要"},{"start":15078.88,"end":15080.88,"text":"是人才資料算力"},{"start":15080.88,"end":15082.88,"text":"能夠訓練AI的一個能力"},{"start":15082.88,"end":15084.88,"text":"當然啊"},{"start":15084.88,"end":15086.88,"text":"都需要嘛"},{"start":15086.88,"end":15088.88,"text":"因為這是一個整體嘛"},{"start":15088.88,"end":15090.88,"text":"那我想請教一下我們現在要"},{"start":15090.88,"end":15092.88,"text":"建置自己的大宇模型"},{"start":15092.88,"end":15094.88,"text":"那現在有趕上"},{"start":15094.88,"end":15096.88,"text":"OpenAI兩年前的OpenAI嗎"},{"start":15100.06,"end":15102.06,"text":"誰可以回答"},{"start":15102.21,"end":15104.21,"text":"說話部說話部不能回答嗎"},{"start":15104.21,"end":15106.21,"text":"你們不是輔導軟體的嗎"},{"start":15106.66,"end":15108.66,"text":"我們現在的主權AI"},{"start":15108.66,"end":15110.66,"text":"大宇模型有沒有趕上兩年前的OpenAI"},{"start":15110.66,"end":15112.66,"text":"委員指的主權AI"},{"start":15112.66,"end":15114.66,"text":"是指哪一個模型"},{"start":15114.66,"end":15116.66,"text":"我們現在政府的"},{"start":15116.66,"end":15118.66,"text":"要發展的大宇模型"},{"start":15118.66,"end":15120.66,"text":"我們在策略上面"},{"start":15120.66,"end":15122.66,"text":"並不著重於大宇模型的開發"},{"start":15122.66,"end":15124.66,"text":"我們著重的是特用型的模型"},{"start":15124.66,"end":15126.66,"text":"那並不是要去開發一個"},{"start":15126.66,"end":15128.66,"text":"像OpenAI那樣子的"},{"start":15128.66,"end":15130.66,"text":"所以我們的主權AI"},{"start":15130.66,"end":15132.66,"text":"不是大宇模型"},{"start":15132.66,"end":15134.66,"text":"是特用模型"},{"start":15134.66,"end":15136.66,"text":"那如果委員說的主權AI的話"},{"start":15136.66,"end":15138.66,"text":"我們數發部"},{"start":15138.66,"end":15140.66,"text":"應該不是在"},{"start":15140.66,"end":15142.66,"text":"專注在您所定義的這個"},{"start":15142.66,"end":15144.66,"text":"模型這個上面"},{"start":15144.66,"end":15146.66,"text":"而是在建構整個台灣主權AI能力"},{"start":15146.66,"end":15148.66,"text":"包括您剛所提到的"},{"start":15148.66,"end":15150.66,"text":"人才資料"},{"start":15150.66,"end":15152.66,"text":"然後資金"},{"start":15152.66,"end":15154.66,"text":"算力這些能力上面"},{"start":15154.66,"end":15156.66,"text":"那"},{"start":15156.66,"end":15158.66,"text":"委員剛講的大宇"},{"start":15158.66,"end":15160.66,"text":"主權AI的大宇模型"},{"start":15160.66,"end":15162.66,"text":"是不是專門指這個台德的部分"},{"start":15162.66,"end":15164.66,"text":"可能要請中原院來跟您說明"},{"start":15164.66,"end":15166.66,"text":"好"},{"start":15166.66,"end":15168.66,"text":"那請中原院"},{"start":15169.54,"end":15171.54,"text":"向委員報告"},{"start":15171.54,"end":15173.54,"text":"您剛提到這個OpenAI的模型"},{"start":15173.54,"end":15175.54,"text":"那我們確實有拿一個OpenAI的"},{"start":15175.54,"end":15177.54,"text":"模型作為參考的基準"},{"start":15177.54,"end":15179.54,"text":"他去年有一顆叫做OSS"},{"start":15179.54,"end":15181.54,"text":"20B的模型"},{"start":15181.54,"end":15183.54,"text":"那我們拿他來當作一個參考"},{"start":15183.54,"end":15185.54,"text":"我們的模型在一些"},{"start":15185.54,"end":15187.54,"text":"公務系統的應用上面的服務"},{"start":15187.54,"end":15189.54,"text":"他的這個對於台灣的"},{"start":15189.54,"end":15191.54,"text":"知識台灣的這個"},{"start":15191.54,"end":15193.54,"text":"認知的這個能力是有超越"},{"start":15193.54,"end":15195.54,"text":"原版的這個"},{"start":15195.54,"end":15197.54,"text":"OpenAI的這個OSS的模型"},{"start":15197.54,"end":15199.54,"text":"我們現在已經超過了"},{"start":15199.54,"end":15201.54,"text":"OpenAI"},{"start":15201.54,"end":15203.54,"text":"ChapGPT"},{"start":15203.54,"end":15205.54,"text":"其中一顆比較小的模型"},{"start":15205.54,"end":15207.54,"text":"我們有超過他"},{"start":15207.54,"end":15209.54,"text":"有超過一顆比較小的模型"},{"start":15209.54,"end":15211.54,"text":"那我講的大宇的模型"},{"start":15213.3,"end":15215.3,"text":"他是比較小的大宇的模型"},{"start":15215.3,"end":15217.3,"text":"比較小的大宇的模型"},{"start":15217.3,"end":15219.3,"text":"所以他"},{"start":15219.3,"end":15221.3,"text":"那加油啦"},{"start":15221.3,"end":15223.3,"text":"我是中原自訓所"},{"start":15223.3,"end":15225.3,"text":"我也是台德跟台德計畫裡面"},{"start":15225.3,"end":15227.3,"text":"剛剛您講的那個東西"},{"start":15227.3,"end":15229.3,"text":"我們大型音樂模型"},{"start":15229.3,"end":15231.3,"text":"我們台灣以我們的規模"},{"start":15231.3,"end":15233.3,"text":"我們人口的規模這些東西"},{"start":15233.3,"end":15235.3,"text":"我們沒有辦法跟Google"},{"start":15235.3,"end":15237.3,"text":"或者是OpenAI這種大公司"},{"start":15237.3,"end":15239.3,"text":"來PD這種General的LM"},{"start":15239.3,"end":15241.3,"text":"是沒有辦法的"},{"start":15241.3,"end":15243.3,"text":"或者就是說把他的東西"},{"start":15243.3,"end":15245.3,"text":"當作一個Foundation Model"},{"start":15245.3,"end":15247.3,"text":"帶到中油"},{"start":15247.3,"end":15249.3,"text":"經過Supervised Fine Tuning或Pretraining"},{"start":15249.3,"end":15251.3,"text":"來帶到中油"},{"start":15251.3,"end":15253.3,"text":"讓我們的百工百業在中油"},{"start":15253.3,"end":15255.3,"text":"我們有比較大的軟體公司"},{"start":15255.3,"end":15257.3,"text":"來做到中油或者是像中原"},{"start":15257.3,"end":15259.3,"text":"或者是國科會這樣的"},{"start":15259.3,"end":15261.3,"text":"的政府機構來幫助"},{"start":15261.3,"end":15263.3,"text":"我們的中小企業把上面"},{"start":15263.3,"end":15265.3,"text":"那種大型音樂模型想辦法"},{"start":15265.57,"end":15267.57,"text":"帶到中油來"},{"start":15267.57,"end":15269.57,"text":"讓中油再做一個平台"},{"start":15269.57,"end":15271.57,"text":"來Support我們台灣"},{"start":15271.57,"end":15273.57,"text":"的百工百業"},{"start":15273.57,"end":15275.57,"text":"所以我們沒有能力"},{"start":15275.57,"end":15277.57,"text":"就像剛剛講的算力"},{"start":15277.57,"end":15279.57,"text":"我問這個問題主要是這樣"},{"start":15279.57,"end":15281.57,"text":"就是說我們大家講一個AI"},{"start":15281.57,"end":15283.57,"text":"講的很大方向很大"},{"start":15283.57,"end":15285.57,"text":"但是真正落實到大家"},{"start":15285.57,"end":15287.57,"text":"真正的需求"},{"start":15287.57,"end":15289.57,"text":"有沒有真的具體照顧的到"},{"start":15289.57,"end":15291.57,"text":"就像主權AI喊的很大"},{"start":15291.57,"end":15293.57,"text":"因為我們每個國家都要主權AI"},{"start":15293.57,"end":15295.57,"text":"但是實際上做出來的東西"},{"start":15295.57,"end":15297.57,"text":"大家真的用不用得到"},{"start":15297.57,"end":15299.57,"text":"還是說其實大部分的人還是會去用"},{"start":15300.64,"end":15302.64,"text":"比如說Google"},{"start":15302.64,"end":15304.64,"text":"或是Tweezer"},{"start":15304.64,"end":15306.64,"text":"這是大家關切的問題"},{"start":15306.64,"end":15308.64,"text":"不要談太多口號"},{"start":15308.64,"end":15310.64,"text":"我跟委員報告一下是有實際用到的"},{"start":15310.64,"end":15312.64,"text":"比如說我們"},{"start":15312.64,"end":15314.64,"text":"最近用了一個影像的部分"},{"start":15314.64,"end":15316.64,"text":"我們就在上游的部分就用"},{"start":15316.64,"end":15318.64,"text":"EURO V7 EURO V9"},{"start":15318.64,"end":15320.64,"text":"就是我們台灣中原院自己發展出來的"},{"start":15320.64,"end":15322.64,"text":"世界級的物件真正系統"},{"start":15322.64,"end":15324.64,"text":"那易隆電子"},{"start":15324.64,"end":15326.64,"text":"新竹的上市公司易隆電子"},{"start":15326.64,"end":15328.64,"text":"他把它加工以後"},{"start":15329.26,"end":15331.26,"text":"結合聯發科跟聯勇的"},{"start":15331.26,"end":15333.26,"text":"12奈米的晶片"},{"start":15333.26,"end":15335.26,"text":"還有NVIDIA的"},{"start":15335.26,"end":15337.26,"text":"Orin的晶片"},{"start":15337.26,"end":15339.26,"text":"把它合在一起軟硬體結合以後"},{"start":15339.26,"end":15341.26,"text":"訓練一個中游的平台放在"},{"start":15341.26,"end":15343.26,"text":"CCTV上面"},{"start":15343.26,"end":15345.26,"text":"因為以前我們的六都"},{"start":15345.26,"end":15347.26,"text":"我們的CCTV在"},{"start":15347.26,"end":15349.26,"text":"比如說交通中心的話看到都只是看到"},{"start":15349.26,"end":15351.26,"text":"Video但是都沒有做"},{"start":15351.26,"end":15353.26,"text":"任何的處理"},{"start":15353.26,"end":15355.26,"text":"但是現在易隆電的這個系統"},{"start":15355.26,"end":15357.26,"text":"他是等於結合剛剛講的"},{"start":15357.26,"end":15359.26,"text":"用台灣本土的"},{"start":15359.26,"end":15361.26,"text":"帶到中游去"},{"start":15361.26,"end":15363.26,"text":"他現在這個CCTV是用在高雄的捷運"},{"start":15363.26,"end":15365.26,"text":"的車廂裡面"},{"start":15365.26,"end":15367.26,"text":"那這車廂裡面他就可以去觀察"},{"start":15367.26,"end":15369.26,"text":"車廂裡面的狀態"},{"start":15369.26,"end":15371.26,"text":"這是實際的用途"},{"start":15371.26,"end":15373.26,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15375.94,"end":15377.94,"text":"好謝謝葉源之委員的質詢"},{"start":15377.94,"end":15379.94,"text":"請官員回座"},{"start":15381.44,"end":15383.44,"text":"蔡易宇委員"},{"start":15383.44,"end":15385.44,"text":"蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員"},{"start":15385.44,"end":15387.44,"text":"不當"},{"start":15386.48,"end":15388.48,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員"},{"start":15388.48,"end":15390.48,"text":"均已發言完畢"},{"start":15390.48,"end":15392.48,"text":"詢答結束"},{"start":15392.48,"end":15394.48,"text":"那關於本日會議呢"},{"start":15394.48,"end":15396.48,"text":"作出以下決定"},{"start":15396.48,"end":15398.48,"text":"報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":15398.48,"end":15400.48,"text":"委員所提書面質詢"},{"start":15400.48,"end":15402.48,"text":"或相關資料均列入"},{"start":15402.48,"end":15404.48,"text":"記錄刊登公報"},{"start":15404.48,"end":15406.48,"text":"對於委員質詢時要求提供的"},{"start":15406.48,"end":15408.48,"text":"相關資料或未及答覆"},{"start":15408.48,"end":15410.48,"text":"的部分請相關的"},{"start":15410.48,"end":15412.48,"text":"機關儘速以書面"},{"start":15412.48,"end":15414.48,"text":"答覆那報告委員會"},{"start":15414.48,"end":15416.48,"text":"今天議程全部處理完畢"},{"start":15416.48,"end":15418.48,"text":"大家辛苦了"},{"start":15418.48,"end":15420.48,"text":"現在休息散會"},{"start":15433.62,"end":15435.62,"text":"再見"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":1705.42,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"PZm+vRc1vbtFBIw9vfRYvZLJEL2hBGK80edEPQp3FL341SW+iUrtvLuHnj0Bqte8x+7CvGLEmry05Ug7tfREPW/Rq72kCZ49Fw3LPUa/0byrhZ+9tCcovOuHxT1KtWg9wGGKubqwvj3lFTy909Z6vflndjumpza96/+EvNs5nb3jJ8G91se0vawCNb2NFsC9+gRdvYwQP7xz4RQ9SbiXvHcEM70SOyM9QIgRPRbWjz15fug9Q/q1PDtwHD3MaRw+c2aIvQxPjz1Tmqe9XzmDvbZROD0Py0g8jAadvUjiub3w+lI9AeFCPcgf071eJUQ9mJWnvWFUuz0iT8M9evm8PJl03LzChNQ97zyNva1uBz2zxIo886ghvda8hb3l1Aq9IRe0vKBChzxqwGe9gmszvLMu4j1/sJC9EHlbu1fflTwRvTU77WCMPf9UET26GaU80sOpvVQ09jwkIMu9OWVYPZA4ujvdmOG8Uw7GvZ30zb1+qm29HaE7vLmTvDx4WbG9Iq5IvUXFEL1rVAe9tc+uvV3xdD1IC3k9pO18PYfGIjxUOzq8mJIOPZednz3ld8w9oKhEPeMLAr5+oUC9TdhqPYq5bL2mBza9+L0UvZP5oz1Nni29xM6XvT+0mD21RuO89ba0vTgUqjwrd5m96Cz1O4qL4T2cvFq8ATGxPe8y0T2RjaO90Ta8PYiDfzyia2W++sDEu+czyDxbKgS9GLMkPfaGDr0S6UC8dZRKvMhCxT1wea09LtXCPe+gDbpylgg9d1SMPWObG72MFP28/jwPvUHH6jpOaDm9c+WPPSqOSr0F/DC87BV5vSAiaD3d1q887X1VPfek4LwtsvA9HqKFPZQxFLyPxi099GUqO1hyLrpqTyo8c9uUPUi+Xr0l2K68QOsNPm0bZr37pIE8lqM0vMM2Hj39jAm9e82xPIYWDj2CJGW9Yh82vSRvejyDFp69Yw+svQXLRD3McAq9i+lmvU58qj2dR728E/GFPF+ZvzygJbe7HMfgO1Kugb2hHBk9L/rovKZ2xL3y1dI8JulUPLLY7TzJBPS87VgUPkZiqb3pwC49J/ogvc4uWz1Pju89Kk9MPQH65D23yMG6jRLzPANpvjxXiFc9pXiWvQ3ksDymy2m8+ekdPJ4pXT3kSL68ZfEBPHG8V7yK6Pk9XS7BvQ/aObyx+4Q9RtCTPNUtH75IZd+8b25WveNAG70tjqw9JNZHPUkOxr15D1+7g+ylvJtlYz3g2A698/2auipJIb2007k8rn8bvhNzX71er3O9CE5OOf75YD3WSnA9iOyfvQJn+b0mD2q7/TY+PMGmM7stOV69jrZkPaFZlD3vLdW985JwPUQP0zxupTc9mOXcOw=="},{"total_seconds":1002.24,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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