{"error":false,"id":["17394"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17394,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17394","日期":"2026-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-04-29T14:00:16+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-29T17:31:00+08:00","影片長度":"03:30:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e2f02a5732d1cf8d0eb9ef3970ce37ccb1d480c4e0b4ea524f77818ed2a2a6af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（下午2時30分起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查\n(一)委員柯志恩等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員林月琴等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王育敏等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n二、審查\n(一)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「醫療法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員洪申翰、賴惠員等17人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「醫療法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「醫療法第八十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員王正旭等24人擬具「醫療法增訂第七十一條之一條文草案」案。\n(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「醫療法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「醫療法第四十九條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具「醫療法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(十)委員賴惠員等20人擬具「醫療法第八十四條及第一百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員李彥秀等16人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「醫療法第八十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員劉建國等18人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「醫療法第四十九條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)委員劉建國等16人擬具「醫療法增訂第九十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(十七)委員林思銘等23人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十八)委員羅智強等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十九)委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十)委員蘇清泉等22人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一)委員羅明才等16人擬具「醫療法第十條、第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四)委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「醫療法第一百零二條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(二十四)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答，下午1時30分起辦理發言】\n【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"14:00:16 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主任檢察官陳肇事經濟部司長蘇祺彥產發署副組長熊立恆副組長盧碧黛副稅署副組長倪立新保險局副組長王祺華"},{"start":2008.317,"end":2022.448,"text":"勞安衛生署副組長彭鳳梅勞動就業平等施裝委李怡萱各支保護委員會我們代理組長曾潔請提案說明"},{"start":2029.327,"end":2056.834,"text":"說明提案要之前先做一下說明本委員會在14年11月26日第4會期第13次委員會議已就委員柯真等17人凝聚醫療法第24條及第106條條文修正草案等14案說明舉行到完畢本日再加入委員徐欣穎等18人凝聚醫療法第21條條文修正草案等24個提案與上述14案並按審查應有相當多新增條文"},{"start":2058.534,"end":2071.717,"text":"與安排今天下午議程進行相關說明及詢答現在請提案說明提案要職每位委員兩分鐘請王振旭委員說明請陳穎委員說明接下來請衛福部時務長併案說明"},{"start":2087.834,"end":2102.284,"text":"主席各位委員那麼今天很高興陳大會邀請了那麼就醫療法的相關修正條文共38案來進行審查那麼很感謝昭偉對"},{"start":2104.445,"end":2132.764,"text":"過去曾經有過的相關的問題那麼在醫療法有相關修正的條文一併提出這個今天的討論以下因為議題蠻多的我們書面報告比較厚那我先以下我就請就幾個修法的重點來跟各位委員報告跟委員會報告本部的一些看法那第一個是有關於大家關心的這個醫療"},{"start":2134.145,"end":2163.133,"text":"暴力的部分那麼醫療暴力在過去已經造成在我們醫事這個醫療機構以及醫事人員在從業上的一個非常大的威脅那雖然過去的也在立法院經過各位委員的支持也修訂那麼加重其刑責但是呢在執行上呢那麼還是會發生到過去雖然有這個法律但是最後呢很多"},{"start":2163.693,"end":2177.493,"text":"也都以這個課徵罰金或是這個緩刑的方式處理那麼仍然有這個醫療暴力的持續發生所以對於這一次修訂這個醫療暴力的"},{"start":2180.237,"end":2195.331,"text":"刑事責任定下限門檻分別是三個月跟六個月以及提高刑事罪的年限分別是三年跟五年我們尊重"},{"start":2196.594,"end":2211.048,"text":"委員的提案那另外呢這個陳穎等委員呢也特別關心到這個醫事人員呢特別是在偏鄉的醫事人員在從事同樣在這個"},{"start":2212.95,"end":2224.142,"text":"偏遠地區的從事這個醫療的服務的部分的收入那麼得以來免稅來鼓勵更多的醫事人員投入到偏遠地區那麼醫療服務的業務那麼我們競表支持"},{"start":2228.626,"end":2242.191,"text":"另外還有有關於醫事鑑定因為刑事訴訟法修訂之故造成一段時間我們難尋醫療鑑定的委員因為必須要去出庭接受詢問、結問等等而造成到在醫療訴訟過程當中鑑定業務的停擺"},{"start":2254.756,"end":2281.074,"text":"那麼雖然呢 我們已經也跟這個司法院法務部大家討論那麼以提供這個專業意見的方式 評析意見的方式來彌補那麼但是呢 仍然沒有辦法取代最後在法官判定時候的需要的鑑定需要所以這一次的修正條文裡面呢那麼特別也把這個"},{"start":2283.295,"end":2305.493,"text":"意識鑑定的相關的專家委員免除於接受到詢問或者是結論等等的要求所以我們很支持劉建國委員的版本回復到"},{"start":2305.973,"end":2335.174,"text":"我們過去這個在醫療法的疑似鑑定當中的常態作業這個是有關於疑似鑑定的部分那麼另外呢在這個一些法律的用字啊那麼的修訂這個我們也競表同意那另外有關於醫療社團法人的條文相關修訂來增加這個法人得為這個醫療社團法人的"},{"start":2335.794,"end":2335.854,"text":"成員的這個"},{"start":2340.585,"end":2366.054,"text":"這個部分呢那麼我們也評估了那麼鑑於這個醫療社團法人那麼雖然具有那麼公益性質但是呢他的所有的財務呢仍然是需要自主的那麼面臨現在的多樣的醫療服務的發展那麼以及這個相關的財務結構的完整那麼來增加"},{"start":2366.994,"end":2390.109,"text":"可由法人支援來挹注如果能夠增加醫療社團法人的營運彈性同時仍然能夠確保其專業自主經營的精神之下我們會競表同意來進行相關條文的修正"},{"start":2391.01,"end":2412.809,"text":"那麼最後還有有關於在這個醫師的勞動權益的條文的部分這分別是洪聖翰委員跟賴慧雲委員之前所提出的那麼包含這個目前尚未納入勞基法的醫師那麼與受僱於這個醫療機構的相關契約規定還有"},{"start":2419.855,"end":2447.287,"text":"這個職災保障那麼退休保障還有相關的職業安全福利的確保等等那麼這個我們過去這個也也有擬定相關的醫療法的修正條文專章那麼也跟相關的團體做了一些討論所以期待未來在我們這個相關的醫療法修正"},{"start":2448.167,"end":2473.562,"text":"的這個行政院版本能夠完成之後再來做病案的審查那麼以上是還有就是有關於這個上半戶病比那麼也有提到上半戶病比的入法那麼我們考量到整個這個在國外"},{"start":2476.069,"end":2490.641,"text":"把三班互併比直接以法律強制性規定的國家或地區實際上是有限的在美國或澳洲也是只有部分的州這樣子執行"},{"start":2491.281,"end":2509.902,"text":"那麼多數呢也都還是以鼓勵的方式來進行那不過我們看這幾個實施地區那麼他的研究報告評估結果來看呢那麼實施三半呼病比之後呢那麼確實也對於這個醫療的病人安全"},{"start":2510.663,"end":2540.263,"text":"那麼醫療的品質護理的負荷跟滿意度也都有正面的影響所以如果在這個具有彈性的情形之下那麼考量到這個實際上的這個食物上的需要那麼因為我們也看到在實施之後的部分的報告也呈現到會影響到部分的醫院會關床會排擠到偏遠地區的醫院"},{"start":2540.823,"end":2557.803,"text":"那麼以及這個等候時間的延長等等的這個副作用所以我們期待的是朝向三班戶病病入法那但是給予彈性那麼考量到實施的期程那麼以及這個實施的時候的實務彈性所以會建議那麼以"},{"start":2560.866,"end":2580.539,"text":"這個醫療機構設置標準的修訂來入法的方向來研議那麼不納入這個醫療法的強制性條文那麼以上的是我們對本部對於這個相關委員所提出的醫療法修正草案的一個初步"},{"start":2580.879,"end":2581.579,"text":"不休息吧"},{"start":2610.846,"end":2628.547,"text":"請問本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員 王振旭委員進行詢問好 謝謝主席有請施部長有請施部長是"},{"start":2636.014,"end":2654.443,"text":"市長好,今天是4月29號,明天4月30號所以很快就進入到5月份,5月就是感恩的歲月、月份因為5月1號很快就進入到勞動節,很感謝我們所有的勞工朋友們對於勞動而付出"},{"start":2655.203,"end":2682.417,"text":"那5月10號呢就是母親節真的非常感謝我們所有的母親們感謝他們對家庭對子女的付出那5月12號呢就是護師節真的很謝謝我們辛苦的護理同仁們非常非常的付出不管是在醫療照護各方面都非常感謝那剛剛部長有提到這個護病筆的部分總統也非常非常的關切"},{"start":2683.497,"end":2700.873,"text":"這部分剛剛部長有提到說入法的過程裡面前面需要有一個推動小組來處理那這個推動小組本身的組成、實成或者是相關的規劃部長可不可以再說明清楚一些好來請"},{"start":2702.014,"end":2717.692,"text":"好 跟謝謝委員這個垂詢這個三班互併比入法事實上我們現在在醫療機構設置標準裡面第12條就已經有這個全日互併比的規定其實已經是入法了"},{"start":2718.112,"end":2739.075,"text":"那現在接下來我們期待的這個三班護病比入法大概也會循這個修訂醫療機構設置標準的方式來推動那當然在這個過去為了我們執行這個三班護病比獎勵這個方案那麼就已經設有這個三班護病比的標準比如說"},{"start":2739.756,"end":2755.769,"text":"按照醫學中心區醫院 地區醫院各自有訂出三班的護病比標準不過實施迄今來看白班跟小夜班比較容易但是夜班的達成還是落差比較大"},{"start":2756.63,"end":2773.725,"text":"所以如果要入法的時候那當然第一個呢 需要有一些緩衝讓這個護理人力呢 逐步的到位那麼不至於造成大規模的關閉病床而影響到病人的就醫的權益但是呢 我們也希望呢 在爭取一些時間"},{"start":2775.106,"end":2791.533,"text":"那麼讓這個我們有這個12項的改革措施護理人力的12項的改革措施從114年那麼行政院開始核定之後推動4年投入275億那麼包含了夜班的津貼啦三班護病皮的獎勵啦"},{"start":2793.174,"end":2821.842,"text":"導師的制度啦那甚至我們也挹注了這個健康台灣聖根計畫在改善這個人員的這個工作條件還有這個智慧醫療智慧護理這邊來導入減輕這個護理人力的負荷那同時再加上呢我們也推動這個住院的整合性照護也就是說由政府來以公務預算補助聘請一些照服員來協助在住院"},{"start":2822.462,"end":2842.843,"text":"過程當中這些失能者的生活照顧等等這些都可以來減壓減輕我們婦理人員的負荷那另外在這個小組裡面也會來討論那麼有關於這個不同的強度上是不是也要有一些考量所以這個計算的方式那麼這個"},{"start":2844.825,"end":2864.813,"text":"正式推實施的期程還有這個輔導的措施等等配套我們都會一併來討論包含這個護理考照的及格率的問題也都會一起來處理讓這個供應端還有留任端也都能夠逐步的到位然後再正式的"},{"start":2865.313,"end":2877.107,"text":"是 好 謝謝部長完整的說明我們也期待透過這些努力讓我們護理同仁都能安心的在工作領域上持續來照顧我們國人的相關護理的問題"},{"start":2879.577,"end":2895.704,"text":"那今天就還是有兩個部分來跟部長討論一個是醫療暴力通報案件的分析一個就是以懲戒跨機關通報機制的這些更好的一個優化的部分那醫療暴力的通案案件的處理其實"},{"start":2897.165,"end":2913.321,"text":"衛護部現在都有幫各縣市的這個妨礙醫療業務執行案件通報的情況跟處理的結果公布在官網上所以大家都可以看得到那我們可以看到就是透過2014跟2017年兩次的醫療修法以後呢這個看起來這個案件大幅的上升從2020年的252件"},{"start":2915.263,"end":2931.813,"text":"去年的2023的331一直到2024年就一下變到443件真的是成長非常非常的快可是呢這也造成了調查跟偵探結果的大塞車這個增加25%裡面呢結果有一半的案件"},{"start":2932.573,"end":2955.431,"text":"還沒有辦法結案我們到2024年還有236件是53.3%是無法結案的那其中包括這個桃園站的案件裡面有86.8%台北有68.6%新北有65.7%都沒有辦法及時的結案這樣對於我們這些人員迫切想要得到有效的法律"},{"start":2956.011,"end":2972.467,"text":"保護似乎是有落差所以部長能不能了解一下這些地方主管機關跟司法機關在執法量度上遇到什麼樣的問題才會在案件徵交過程裡面竟然無法能夠順利的完成調查做成適當的處分"},{"start":2974.068,"end":2989.704,"text":"是好跟委員說明確實我們在這個修法之後也鼓勵通報啦所以讓這個檢調可以來協助不過呢這個確實像剛剛的數字這樣後面的結案的速度確實"},{"start":2990.945,"end":3011.482,"text":"是比較慢 所以在去年的1月還有12月那個這個醫事司都有跟高檢署來召開一些檢討的會議那麼就相關的這些問題進行討論那麼高檢署其實也很積極也成立了這個醫療暴力的犯罪專責小組的"},{"start":3013.464,"end":3031.202,"text":"群組就是希望那麼除了前面通報快也希望處置快起訴快的方式來來進行所以這個我們會持續的跟法務部呢司法院一起來合作因為如果我們將法源有效判刑拘役罰金"},{"start":3031.762,"end":3056.071,"text":"這些結果疏離加總起來視為有處罰的比例的話大概平均只有到30%左右這個有學者就指出說這個代表醫界跟法界對於醫療暴力的構成要件在日常上有很大的不同如此低的處罰率不僅會影響法律的威嚇力其實也會打擊醫事人員通報的意願所以有學者建議說能不能請衛福部、司法院跟法務部"},{"start":3056.831,"end":3075.547,"text":"來共同研議實務操作的指引來釐清醫療發育過程要件提供醫療機構跟司法人員明確的判斷標準針對這部分可不可以部長能夠明確的讓我們知道這個實務操作指引有沒有機會來透過研議來處理這樣的需求"},{"start":3077.329,"end":3085.1,"text":"其實這方面據我的了解醫師公會也都長期的在舉辦一些醫法論壇來建立醫療跟法務之間的一個平台我們會把這方面的也納入過去"},{"start":3093.591,"end":3118.408,"text":"醫法論壇比較著重在醫療糾紛還有我們之前推動的醫療事故預防及爭議處理法相關的這些新的規定做法上的討論至於在醫療暴力的部分它的一些實務操作指引我們也來跟醫事公會討論一下我也來看看是不是也可以把它納入在醫法論壇的議題裡面"},{"start":3120.629,"end":3134.194,"text":"好希望能夠有明確的進度那第二部分就是醫事懲戒跨機關通報的機制因為我們知道醫事懲戒的問題很多在委員會裡面都有討論過了那我們也曾經針對這個議題請了專家學者跟部會開過空天會"},{"start":3137.975,"end":3164.987,"text":"我們其實當天有做明確的結論希望給部會有三個月的時間來做處理可是目前還沒有看到一些進度所以也請部長能夠一起來關心儘快處理來保護社會大眾安全就醫的權益在當天我們也處理到說醫治懲戒涉及到嚴重違規的懲戒預檢跟公告機制會分成不同的程度跟不同的層面"},{"start":3165.527,"end":3186.909,"text":"所以在這個宮廷會裡面包括漁會者、學院前部長、來訪醫律師、林信柔教授等專家、學者還有很多的團體包括醫改會、醫師職業公會、現在婦女基金會、醫事公會、律師公會跟台灣醫院的協會等團體包括漁會的醫事師、法務部跟經管會都提供很多的專業意見"},{"start":3188.05,"end":3214.438,"text":"那也做一些適當的結論那個結論長路我就不再贅述那其中我們覺得最有迫切需要的就是暫時性的處分這個暫時性的處分呢就是我們了解懲戒需要一段時間的調查才會有結果那這段期間裡面醫師如果常接觸病人可能會衍生有更多的受害人所以如果限制醫師來執業又擔心會不會侵害他的工作權所以會"},{"start":3215.798,"end":3232.196,"text":"在開會當中林新羅教授就說可以建議參考英國的醫學總會簡稱是GMC的做法GMC以公共利益跟病人安全為最高的指導原則代表國家來管理醫師這方面的問題擁有獨立的監察"},{"start":3235.519,"end":3262.765,"text":"監督委員會可透過病人家屬醫院主管機關接受訊息初步篩查以後呢再決定要不要展開正式的調查所以在當天薛前輝部長也有提到說要保護潛在的被害人非常贊成有這樣的制度並提醒不只是醫師法第25條規定的情況需要暫時實現的介入那第28條之四的這個規定違法行為也在處分之前也希望能夠先停止醫師的遊遊才能夠"},{"start":3264.065,"end":3286.507,"text":"阻止有風險的行為持續的產生那這部分部長可以同意持續積極來處理嗎好 跟委員說明其實我們已經有發函給各地方衛生局請他們轉資到所有的醫療機構那麼如果涉嫌到這個人員涉嫌到違反性騷法或者是這個性侵"},{"start":3289.869,"end":3310.634,"text":"性侵害防治條例等等那麼在調查或者是偵查的過程當中就需要按照這個相關的法律規定先調整職務也就是說先調理原本在執行的臨床業務來避免潛在的受害人可能會"},{"start":3312.514,"end":3327.099,"text":"擴大所以這個是在我們的函裡面已經先要求先這樣做所以前面幾個例子大概都是會先停止他的執行醫療業務了大概是這個已經在做OKOK那就我們部長持續的關心而且能夠盡速的處理"},{"start":3330.24,"end":3346.036,"text":"另外最後一個就是有關於根據監察院今年1月份在115涉調0001號的這個調查報告裡面我們發現現行的醫師懲戒法制裡面當處理涉及性別平等的案件的時候存在嚴重的跨機關的通報斷產跟橫向聯繫的機制的缺失"},{"start":3349.719,"end":3368.631,"text":"那這個包括缺失通報機制資訊不對等跟時效的延宕所以吳副應該立即要參佐監察院的相關的建議就是明町醫師涉及性平及重大危事案件的時候醫療院所及相關的行政機關必須橫向通報地方主管機關這個很重要"},{"start":3370.052,"end":3388.129,"text":"並且要研議串聯社政勞動跟衛生系統的自動化通報網路來確保一處得知就全體聯動避免人為的判斷失誤導致漏接這部分是不是可以請部長盡量盡力的趕快來促成這個像聯繫機制的這個部分"},{"start":3392.413,"end":3409.899,"text":"跟委員說明我們初步也已經先去喊各縣市政府了要求社會局跟勞工局如果有接獲這樣的案件的時候一定要及時的通知衛生局來進行介入"},{"start":3410.379,"end":3431.116,"text":"所以這個公文我們大概發了那社會局的部分是沒有問題那麼勞工局的部分也陸陸續續在做調查那應該這個橫向的聯繫會先建立起來至於說有沒有辦法有一個更好的這個平台資訊系統的互通的建立這個我們再來研究看看怎麼樣來"},{"start":3433.098,"end":3449.435,"text":"醫師懲戒是屬於專業的志願不應以司法判決成立作為啟動的前提那刑事是否成立只是代表是否動用國家的刑法不能取代對專業倫理跟職業資格的評估所以健全的醫師的懲戒制度是維護醫病關係跟醫療品質的基石"},{"start":3451.957,"end":3469.27,"text":"我們不允許這個制度上的漏洞成為不適合醫師的避風港所以麻煩衛護在兩個禮拜裡面向本委員會提交關於完善醫師懲戒跨機關通報機制的書面改善計畫那就麻煩部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝黃正訓委的質詢接下來請陳清輝委員質詢"},{"start":3482.935,"end":3487.101,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝主席 謝謝委員還有我們官員出席 請時部長有請時長兩部長"},{"start":3493.56,"end":3518.299,"text":"指揮長今天因為下午有一個很大的消息所以本席還是需要跟您討論有非常多人都有來跟本席關心這個三班護病比的問題那之前在這個場合其實不同黨派的委員都有質詢過那我有去翻了一下您過去的發言記錄你4月25號的時候說三班護病比入法仍在評估中"},{"start":3518.959,"end":3535.073,"text":"然後4月28呢說要成立一個醫事人力優化研議推動小組來研擬這個期程配套那你也常常回答許多委員你提出這個整備計畫的事情可是今天大家就有點嚇到因為"},{"start":3537.294,"end":3543.418,"text":"4月25 28那個時候你都說要慢慢的研議可是今天媒體報導是今天下午就要入法而且是總統親自致電要求積極處理我是想問啦這個政策是你們評估成熟之後提出"},{"start":3553.923,"end":3567.048,"text":"還是說總統府要你們趕快處理還是說現在總統府看到好像有立法委員提出了所以他們也要趕快動作是到底是怎麼來的因為這個跟你之前的發言紀錄差距很大"},{"start":3568.64,"end":3592.873,"text":"應該是連貫性的就是這個護病筆的入法我們一直都在進行評估當中評估好了4月28才說要成立研議推動小組我們一定有一些內部的評估然後接著就要開始進行程序那在程序的嚴謹上當然會要成立一個推動小組因為我們必須要"},{"start":3593.833,"end":3620.206,"text":"這個多聽各界的聲音特別是可能相關的團體代表這些我們一定要討論的所以三班互併比入法這個過去呢大家都很關心所以我們一直都在做評估跟關切這一些變化所以才會在114年就推出了這個護理改革的12項的改革策略其實都是在希望這個增加人力那麼來推動我是覺得蠻"},{"start":3621.591,"end":3640.481,"text":"蠻多人是覺得蠻突然的跟你之前發言差很多但是沒關係我們想要問一些細節就是你剛有講到緩衝期我們想知道緩衝期大概多久那你會不會有日出條款還有你這個12項整備計畫做完你才會修你剛所謂的執法還是你會同步進行"},{"start":3641.927,"end":3659.414,"text":"這個當然要在推動小組裡面去討論啦我如果通通都說完了那好像我們也不尊重這個到時候我們要邀請的對象但是您所關心的這些細節都會在這個推動小組的會議裡面去達到一個共識所以我們也想知道說你這個推動小組"},{"start":3661.415,"end":3677.196,"text":"預計多久以內會有全部的細節讓我們看嗎因為下午這樣子突然宣布可是我們問黃委會沒有任何一個人收到完整的版本也沒有被正式告知我們一點細節都不知道那你剛剛講到啦涉及的層面很廣嘛"},{"start":3677.837,"end":3695.35,"text":"醫院能力配置健保支付急診擁捨怕後床這不是一個很小的政策我們也想知道你這筆錢要從哪裡來你要從公務預算來還是深耕健康台灣還是健保總額還是醫院自行吸收你現在初步總得給我們一點裁員的想法吧"},{"start":3698.372,"end":3723.591,"text":"這個裁員的想法我多次也提到那麼主要有來自於好幾個方向那麼一個是剛剛我提到的在114年執行到117年這4年的275億這個是行政院有核定當然到時候也都要經過立法院的審查通過也希望委員能夠支持那這個裡面就包含了這個護理人員的夜班津貼包含了"},{"start":3724.412,"end":3748.344,"text":"三班互併比的達標獎勵包含了新手這個護理導師制度還有一些標杆學習等等這些都會做這是一塊第二個呢在我們的這個深耕台灣計畫裡面這個是五年489億那這個當然也是逐年要在立法院審查通過也希望這個有支持啦那這個裡面呢就包含了"},{"start":3750.805,"end":3764.643,"text":"那第三個呢也還包含了這個健保裡面我們會調高這個護理費來這個讓這個醫院有這個能力來調升這個護理的薪資增加這個聘用的人員"},{"start":3765.865,"end":3785.487,"text":"等等所以我們有這些措施那麼這些措施從去年開始執行114年開始那我們統計到今年的3月大概是叫前一個年度增加的這個護理人力大概在4900名左右所以已經開始在回到我們疫情前的水準那我們才要往後"},{"start":3786.368,"end":3797.418,"text":"如果是再更早我不敢講因為在前年其實它的人力的增加才2000多個而已我只想知道你們什麼時候會把這個詳細的資料送來衛黃委員會給衛黃委員會委員看畢竟你剛剛講你剛剛講的都很好但是最近還是有醫學中心的院長"},{"start":3804.724,"end":3822.43,"text":"有在媒體發生嗎這個相信您後面的長官也都知道啊還是有醫學中心的院長在提這個護理師離職非常嚴重的問題嗎好 我想這個你就給我一個時程就好我如果給你時程那我就是不尊重這個最懂小組的討論了嘛"},{"start":3824.011,"end":3841.403,"text":"你都已經直接發新聞了這個新聞媒體都報導了這個不是我們發的新聞是我受訪的時候大家關心所以我總是就像委員詢問我一樣我也必須要給出一些回應所以概念是這樣那麼如果是要入法"},{"start":3842.163,"end":3864.815,"text":"當然我們現在會考慮的是以這個醫療機構設置辦法那麼以醫療機構設置標準裡面去訂的話它也要經過法規的預告程序所以到時候一定會有完整的這個結論的時候才會開始進行那你給我們一個範圍你的時程 一個範圍就可以了一定在年底前 我說的也是年底前好 我們要把它記錄下來謝謝 等一下沒有護理了"},{"start":3868.629,"end":3875.652,"text":"然後再來我們來看一下因為最近也非常多人關心上次是問你馬鈴薯嘛但是我沒有機會問到豬肉那這邊呢他這邊講了這個是我們的貿易壁壘報告今年的中間我幫你圈起來的地方他是說美國說我們去標示產地是不正確的暗示美國豬肉產品有食安疑慮但是對於所有的台灣人而言我看到這個東西是哪邊來的是很正常的"},{"start":3897.723,"end":3924.526,"text":"請問你認同他這個報告這樣子寫嗎我跟委員說明在這個談判的過程當中我們堅持四大不變第一個國人敏感的部位仍然禁止輸入第二個所有的產地標示連產地標示不變包含散裝包裝還有場所飲食場所都需要這個標示產地所以這兩個不會變第三個在校園裡面仍然是採用國產租"},{"start":3925.447,"end":3947.935,"text":"所以這個也不變第四個就是基改也不會變那些都不會變那麼另外呢我們所有的管理的源頭管理到所有的食安標準那麼我們都會嚴格把握好那我知道現在美國如果有進口豬肉你們標示不會變好這一點很好那再來呢在他們的這個報告裡面就有寫到說台灣的茶廠"},{"start":3949.415,"end":3954.879,"text":"影響到他們的他這邊捲起來disrupting影響到他們運作啊影響到他們作業影響購買慾望那我也想問一下你們未來對於茶廠的標準有沒有變標準沒有變啊我剛剛提到標準不變啊那麼茶廠的你剛剛沒有講到茶廠啊還是不變啊茶廠標準我們沒有改變啊"},{"start":3972.625,"end":3990.091,"text":"我給你看一下這個是他未來他講的他說ART他跟我們台灣討論ART之後他會終止百分之百的查場另外他有一些限制如果說過去這個人有比較不好的紀錄你才可以去查場他已經寫得這麼明白了"},{"start":3992.352,"end":4021.792,"text":"他已經寫得這麼明白了所以我們很擔心啊因為之前有一些混裝肉標示不實的事件的時候我們曾經維持百分之百逐批查驗都沒有檢測出來你就浮動式調整你上次也講得很清楚都沒有檢測出來你就改成20到50後來又有一些混裝肉事件你又調高到百分之百可是他現在ART講得很清楚他的意思是說要終止百分之百查驗所以到底是哪裡沒變變很多"},{"start":4022.892,"end":4039.306,"text":"跟委員說明我一向講的都是我們邊境是按照風險程度來查驗所以常規是2到10%如果有問題就提高20到50%然後再更高就是逐批同樣的逐批的如果沒有問題的時候他也會調降風險等級"},{"start":4043.129,"end":4064.518,"text":"一路這樣這個是浮動式的那我現在在問你說以後你如果遇到風險的時候因為他這邊ART已經講了要終止百分之百查驗但是你剛也提到以前你們會浮動式的調整嘛所以我現在也想問你未來你有疑慮的時候你要如何又遵守ART然後又回到百分之百查驗"},{"start":4064.938,"end":4084.854,"text":"所有的國際貿易強調的就是透明公開我相信這個委員也會認同所以我們所有的查驗的方式是透明公開一致性原則所以我跟委員報告過去在美豬進來的我們抽驗一共報驗一萬多批裡面抽驗了4816批抽驗率是30%"},{"start":4088.496,"end":4104.416,"text":"不合格的是0所以理論上它是可以調降所以調到20到10就是這樣所以就是這邊啊這個我幫你整理好了我們過去就是按這樣再調整啊所以我們還是照這樣再做所以你的意思是說如果查到了風險提高了自然就"},{"start":4105.517,"end":4115.364,"text":"調升這個查驗的B次所以你的意思是說你以後還是會堅持如果有食安風暴食安疑慮的時候你會回到100%對依風險來查驗那這邊ART它也碰觸到這個Codex容許值這個你應該也知道啦它有講到說以後這個豬肝豬"},{"start":4127.853,"end":4137.986,"text":"腎豬肌肉跟這個腎肝以外的他希望可以回到0.09用未來Codex的標準那這一點我們也想知道說你會不會改"},{"start":4138.533,"end":4159.372,"text":"我們現在的標準原則上都會跟國際採評跟CODES一樣的標準跟日韓新加坡也都是採取CODES的標準所以我們就會按照CODES的標準當然我們也經過國人的隱私機關的風險評估那也是可以在安全的容許範圍裡面那麼我們"},{"start":4160.373,"end":4187.551,"text":"你的意思是說你現在已經經過評估了所以未來你有可能還是說已經確定就是會改成0.09我們有開過有做過風險評估也開過了專家會議所以會朝向Codex的標準來修訂就是0.09如果不是全部都是0.09啦它是不一樣的肌肉還是維持0.就是肉肉的部分還是0.01ppm"},{"start":4190.333,"end":4206.853,"text":"肝的部分是0.04ppm腎的部分是0.09ppm其他的部位採取0.04ppm這個跟Cordex日韓的標準一樣那慘了我上次跟你講你寫過一篇文章教大家不要馬鈴薯發芽要挖掉"},{"start":4207.594,"end":4235.409,"text":"可以吃這是你們寫的不能吃不能吃發芽馬鈴薯這也是你們寫的2020年蔡政府的時候你說呢食藥署委託了很多專家裡面就有成功大學的教授進行風險評估那你針對不同年齡層還有敏感族群敏感族群就是比如說坐月子的小朋友幼兒老人育齡的女性嚴格訂定萊克多巴胺的殘留容許量"},{"start":4236.229,"end":4257.175,"text":"這跟你剛講的不一樣 你剛說腎是0.09這邊你寫的是0.04這個是當時候的標準 但是我們在114年可是你當時候最後一句話寫的是考量我們國人的攝食量 另諮詢會議專家建議訂定比國際更為嚴格的腎臟容許量標準"},{"start":4260.536,"end":4289.996,"text":"才能確保安全說明我們已經重新再做過評估啦所以沒有問題啦那你這篇要你要改了是不是你要改了2020年你要改了你要告訴大家說2020年新法一定優於舊法啊那不然立法院就不需要再修法啊所有的都在按照新的科學證據你當時找的專家跟現在找的專家對我們的風險評估是他的計算方式不同"},{"start":4291.156,"end":4313.846,"text":"他考量到偏離了社會的常態他所放入的標準量沒有吃到這麼多啦簡單的講所以你的意思是說這些人所以重新再按照現行的國人的飲食習慣你的意思是說108年你委託的那些人國人的飲食習慣也在改變108年你委託的人太嚴格了你現在的意思是說你當時委託的人所有的標準都會滾動是國人的飲食習慣也會改變"},{"start":4319.029,"end":4346.609,"text":"檢驗的方式也在改變國際的標準也在移動所以我們都需要參考進來那我們想要看到這個東西你到底是怎麼做出來的好沒有問題好大概多久以內可以給這個學者都已經做完了嘛我們就送給委員參考好啊那你們對外講的是說你們會做出專家做出風險評估的人才最終還要再配合府院的指示所以到底是專家的意見重要還是府院的指示重要當然是專家的意見最重要啊"},{"start":4346.929,"end":4357.11,"text":"那你最後 江志剛表示最後整體評估會配合整個府院的指示應該是說整個實施的期程會搭配著整個談判的進度來推動"},{"start":4358.203,"end":4385.875,"text":"好那沒關係我們有幾個東西要你提供報告第一個你到底怎麼算出最後剩要改0.09ppm那你怎麼推翻你以前的這個東西食安人民的這個飲食到底有改變什麼我是不知道你們是寫的蠻清楚的你說依據國人的攝食量所以你也要提供我國人的攝食量沒有問題那這什麼時候會給我這個報告很快就可以提供吧兩週內就可以提供"},{"start":4386.155,"end":4392.439,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝陳清風委員的諮詢接下來請林淑芬委員諮詢謝昭緯喔 是不是請我們石部長部長你喝水慢慢喝沒關係我請石部長"},{"start":4412.69,"end":4426.015,"text":"部長你好我們在2024年就通過了再生醫療法還有再生醫療治劑條例那今年1月1號雙法也正式施行了那我們希望透過再生醫療能夠在嚴謹的科學的證據臨床試驗人體細胞來源的管理治劑品質還有醫療機構責任的發展下"},{"start":4433.037,"end":4446.925,"text":"成為這個新一代下一個世代的主流的醫學的這個契機但是呢大家都也知道這也變成市場上一個亂象的來源其中一個最嚴重的就是外密體"},{"start":4448.487,"end":4463.34,"text":"大家都覺得這個再生醫療很簡單就外秘體就變成再生醫療的這個代名詞那我們的司長其實有談到就是說我國僅核准生技公司以人體細胞衍生之外秘體"},{"start":4464.301,"end":4493.16,"text":"作為這個化妝品保養品的原料都沒有核准外密體的治療行為都沒有到現在仍然都沒有嘛是不是對到目前為止還沒有任何一個核准式外密體用在治療只有人體的然後當原料可以當這個化妝品對可是那你知道目前坊間以外密體為號稱的違法治療行為多不多治療喔我不是談化妝品我先談治療"},{"start":4494.962,"end":4509.46,"text":"我們在這個醫事室也有交查了幾案有衛生局去查 包含廣告幾案 多少案 四案那你知道在2025年6月有一個個案"},{"start":4511.382,"end":4531.054,"text":"這個個案我不曉得你們有沒有查就是2025年6月接觸一款號稱韓國獨家代理的外密體產品業者聲稱皮下注射可以讓皮膚緊緻重返年輕結果患者在施打容量高達6CC的這個增劑以後全身隨即出現嚴重的紅腫"},{"start":4533.015,"end":4553.193,"text":"然後就緊急消腫然後隨後兩頰跟額頭冒出密密麻麻如秋枕般的凸起霧半年無法消退身心飽受煎熬收治該病例的台大醫院皮膚部主任蔡承芳診斷患者是因異物注射引發延遲性免疫反應進而導致異物肉芽腫"},{"start":4555.695,"end":4568.615,"text":"那其實這個台大去治療他半年了以後呢患者的臉部仍有明顯的色素沉澱還有深層的凹洞復原之路遙遙無期這個案子有沒有是你們四案之一嗎"},{"start":4573.171,"end":4586.181,"text":"因為我們現在就是針對外密體的部分1月1號開始可以適用再生醫療法去處理然後1月1號之前的話都得用的是現在的醫療法做處理所以是兩個法院不一樣"},{"start":4587.262,"end":4608.823,"text":"那我現在大家都覺得說 外密體治療好像沒有什麼事實上是很嚴重了因為後來該患者他們去調查 該患者施打的徵劑成分極其複雜除了植物外密體以外 還混了PDR 以及多達五十幾種的保養成分基本上的本質就是化妝品精華液"},{"start":4609.944,"end":4617.028,"text":"但是他強調 這個醫生 台大醫生強調這些不是真劑 非針對注射設計的成分他不是 他可能是保養品而已他不是要打針用的結果被他們這些成分混合了50多種注入皮下 極易引發免疫系統排斥這正是導致患者長期發炎形成肉芽腫的主因那其實現在很多業者會閃躲這個皮下注射喔"},{"start":4636.917,"end":4660.625,"text":"它會變成水光針冷凍噴槍或高壓氣體噴槍宣稱不是打針規避法規但事實上只要導入皮膚真皮疹法律上事實上就等同注射行為都是違法的那你們的副司長也講過就是完全都沒有核准的針劑治療可是你們接獲這四起違規以外這四起大概"},{"start":4661.365,"end":4677.172,"text":"台北台中高雄還有彰化的一家美容SPA中心都地方衛生局在查辦但我是要問你說部長這個不是事件而已這個是比比皆是啦比比皆是而且風險很大"},{"start":4678.803,"end":4698.308,"text":"所以他宣稱為外用化妝品原料你們合法是這樣子可是診所把他當成可以抗衰老再生修復促進組織恢復暗示可以改善疾病或身體機能他被很多醫美診所包裝成高階抗老療程又貴又"},{"start":4700.563,"end":4727.52,"text":"又很多人去追逐追逐的話術很多啦抗衰老、逆齡、細胞修復、再生管理、術後修復這些都在引導消費者相信外秘體具有特定生理或醫療效果可是事實上不是嘛事實上不是外秘體除了注射療程還有點滴療程還號稱可以達到心臟保護效果"},{"start":4728.32,"end":4741.033,"text":"那2024年通過今年施行然後醫療機構的網站還在大剌剌的宣傳外媒體的療效那我們中央主管機關的角色在哪裡你看這是什麼診所劉醫師有話說第一張是這個嗎"},{"start":4751.4,"end":4774.759,"text":"好 劉醫師有話說也沒有關係啦劉醫師有話說 說了什麼劉醫師說對心臟醫學會來講對心臟醫學有幫助促進本身的什麼自我療癒系統很小智喔 劉醫師醫師可以這樣講 診所有名字的啦 再下一張"},{"start":4777.747,"end":4805.655,"text":"水光注射水光注射什麼診所都有診所有名字還可以直接違法他們都直接大剌剌的不在乎不把衛福部當一回事還有呢外密體還有醫美診所創造一個小傷口讓外密體滲入皮膚天啊天啊這樣行嗎還有呢"},{"start":4808.106,"end":4813.291,"text":"這個都有診所名字啦沒中 這樣看有嗎 這樣很衰啦"},{"start":4816.872,"end":4840.633,"text":"這個很謝謝委員藉這個機會那麼讓國人更清楚據我的了解全世界現在沒有任何一款核准的外密體可以作為醫療現在就不再講全世界沒有一種核准的外密體可以增劑注射現在問題是這個國家我們沒政府啊衛福部沒了啊這都金手耶金手裡面有醫生耶有經營者耶"},{"start":4843.135,"end":4865.665,"text":"而且我剛剛講是隨便上網搜尋就找得到的餒冰山一角餒你們到底有沒有建立一個系統性的查核機制還是說只要沒有被檢舉沒有被媒體揭露然後沒有像剛剛講那種不良個案發生然後這些違規就可以繼續存在你就知道會說全世界都沒合法台灣也沒辦法是合法可以做的台灣煮到冰過他們以前就不怕拉廣告"},{"start":4873.089,"end":4887.576,"text":"跟委員說明 我會請這個144交查下去 全國的醫美診所都地毯式的查一遍 看看有沒有違法的情形網路你怎麼查 網路上拉生意耶 還直接在網路上拉生意耶"},{"start":4893.663,"end":4920.724,"text":"這個網路的我們也會跟速發部合作啦我們過去會有一些AI的巡查去跳出來來交查那現在外密體的商品大概就剩下美容產品吧護膚的美容產品的那你再看這個是我們助理在蝦皮的購物平台搜尋外密體三個字型大家馬上搜尋都可以看到具體的商品頁面"},{"start":4923.486,"end":4945.268,"text":"這些商品在上面有辦法查詢這些商品的名稱有辦法在食藥署的化妝品產品登錄中找到資料嗎我們的化妝品要怎麼管理你到化妝品產品登錄去到登錄的系統去查詢是不是"},{"start":4946.55,"end":4965.65,"text":"有沒有公司公司有沒有合法 工廠登記證有沒有合法有沒有登錄嘛 對不對我們有個登錄平台可以查對啊 好查嗎這個怎麼查 很難查 你自己去看人家這個衛福部是這個查要的啦這是查要的化妝品也有查"},{"start":4966.35,"end":4983.185,"text":"查化妝品的好來你就剛剛那一頁化妝品的品名名稱是什麼網路上的化妝品名稱會是你這裡的名稱嗎網路上的名字跟你的登錄他業者真正登錄不一定是同一個名字耶怎麼辦"},{"start":4984.724,"end":5009.997,"text":"登錄的業者名稱化妝品公司在網路上賣的他很多都查不到耶登錄業者名稱是什麼哪個縣市別我怎麼知道啊你的化妝品保養品在你的化妝品登錄平台可見性很差"},{"start":5011.994,"end":5032.068,"text":"大家白飯爐不會把它翻過但是是不是合法的不知道成分可不可以去了解不知道這個平台很難用的查不到啦你看這下一個只要用中文品名輸進去應該就可以查好你說得很簡單的來你現在來實驗一下找一個你蚵蝦皮上的"},{"start":5037.729,"end":5064.66,"text":"這個品名登記叫什麼阿美洛是大廠牌很貴不用來換做下一個看看有沒有別的阿美洛或許有還有什麼好來來來再來阿美洛阿美洛的縣市別是哪一個縣市別你看這個廣告商品裡面哪一個縣市別縣市別是一定要我要去看看上面要看什麼產品包裝上面有沒有他在平台上賣有嗎"},{"start":5066.912,"end":5082.025,"text":"我要登錄什麼限制別修一下吧因為有限制好來再看看有沒有別的公司業者要找哪一個品名的名字模糊攝取就可以"},{"start":5083.443,"end":5102.671,"text":"這個叫品 新品上市 外密體植萃精華 右下角是不是 外密體植萃精華 品名是叫這個嗎公司的縣識別是啥 公 阿哥阿哥那個什麼 公司登記是哪個 網路上都看不到耶"},{"start":5104.093,"end":5126.58,"text":"我要買之前我也看不到也查不到我怎麼知道買進來的東西是啥東西你們網路上在販售化妝品保養品都不用規範嗎不用跟你的化妝品這一個銜接上你的查詢平台不用銜接嗎你的化妝品平台查詢線識別我是要製造商還是工廠還是公司"},{"start":5130.342,"end":5150.26,"text":"公司的名字叫什麼網路上每一個都有 都查得到嗎沒啦沒啦輸入業者輸入業者那如果你要求這一些那我要看到每一個平台上在賣的都有這一些標示出來你的平台上都沒有這一些標示欸"},{"start":5152.082,"end":5163.267,"text":"你的平台要上架難道不用符合你這一個登錄的這一些設定的條件讓我們資訊讓所有消費者上網可以查詢嗎你看剛才那些NP外密體550億這個叫名稱嗎外密體再生修復精華這個叫名稱嗎然後呢"},{"start":5182.225,"end":5199.862,"text":"還搭配再生修復高單位修復醫美術後名稱不但不知道產品包裝頁面標示不清楚也沒有辦法看到製造者輸入業者產品登錄字號你看這叫他把產品登錄字號告訴我們不是還一目了然"},{"start":5201.508,"end":5213.227,"text":"產品登錄的字號你在你的查詢平台裡面我直接輸入你的登錄字號直接查詢不就一清二楚啊你都沒有欸 都沒有管理都沒有在管理啊"},{"start":5215.083,"end":5231.095,"text":"沒有完整的化妝有沒有完成化妝品登錄不知道那為什麼可以公開販售有完成登錄的話那為什麼消費者沒有辦法在他平台上的網頁上清楚的看到登錄資訊都沒有規範"},{"start":5234.741,"end":5247.332,"text":"更不知道這個網頁所使用的名稱 成分 宣稱跟登錄資料到底有沒有一致也有可能他要登錄啊但跟登錄的事實的成分有沒有一致 不知道"},{"start":5249.699,"end":5274.169,"text":"而且你看這種外密體的成分剛剛搜尋到外密體還再生修復醫美術後導入高單位外密體這種醫療效能的暗示這種誇大的廣告也沒有人在管理你的食藥署也沒有人在管理 保庭剛剛講蒸汽注射也沒有人在管理現在合法的保養品也沒有人在管理這亂象很多 開支都很貴"},{"start":5278.766,"end":5298.954,"text":"阿寶店這個怎麼樣跟委員說明我們大概兩個方面第一個那個查詢的那個登錄平台我們來優化因為有一些欄位確實可以稍微模糊一點也可以列出來那這樣搜尋的話比較容易好搜尋讓這個使用者比較容易使用"},{"start":5299.754,"end":5314.24,"text":"第二個就是在販賣的時候的資訊揭露必要要求的資訊揭露我們來修訂要求一定要揭露到哪一些像剛剛提到的這個一定要揭露產品的全名"},{"start":5315.02,"end":5330.514,"text":"你的商品名稱要很明確要讓人家一看就確認商品名稱外盒標示登錄資料實際成分都要標示出來那我們在平台上這一些外盒包裝全部都要全部顯現"},{"start":5332.496,"end":5340.204,"text":"所以現在消費者看到了商品名稱圖片售價他就只有售價評價銷售出銷量這個是平台上重點可是我們消費者的重點是要看到這個產品的名稱製造商輸入業者成分他有沒有登錄跟登錄的不一樣我們要看的是這個"},{"start":5353.317,"end":5374.549,"text":"所以你現在讓消費者都沒有辦法判斷所有判斷的品名是什麼外盒名稱是什麼登錄的名稱是什麼是不是同一個東西統統都不知道這樣就不對了這樣的管理就失去了實際的管理的效果等於沒有管理那你說你們這個東西要做什麼時候要做出來蛤"},{"start":5380.774,"end":5396.469,"text":"這些所有化妝品保養品外密體的這個東西他有沒有完成登錄也不知道你們要求平台或是化妝品上平台或化妝品保養品的外部包裝要涵蓋哪些東西"},{"start":5400.149,"end":5422.429,"text":"這個東西要多久重新檢討出來我們三個月內把它檢討檢討出來你們登錄制度三個月內也要一併給它改善對 就是要求那個應該要哪一些介入那另外一件事情就是這些都不是單一商品 單一行為平台販售的跟醫美療程的會相互聯動"},{"start":5423.67,"end":5444.579,"text":"其實都是連動在一起的所以有的在增技他也販售商品販售商品的他也連動到這個增技所以要看的話其實要整體看在一起我們希望應該要建立起查核的機制把產品的來源登錄的資料廣告的宣稱跟診所施作一次查清楚啦"},{"start":5445.779,"end":5457.109,"text":"不要再這樣子 好像再生醫療法過去了大家看到再生醫療 外媒體 再生醫療這個一燈差十秋了 還沒有但是不知道還要花大錢 花冤枉錢"},{"start":5458.827,"end":5481.122,"text":"這個就不應該了啦好謝謝委員我們會來檢討那另外那個這個不是這個查驗登記的外密體拿來做鑰匙因為那還涉及到鑰匙法的違法那個是刑事罪那是刑事罪徵記的打進去的啊保養品的兩個你都沒有管欸現在要開始管啦好謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":5501.694,"end":5501.974,"text":"現在請邱會務委員質詢"},{"start":5514.468,"end":5520.9,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請石部長有請石同仁部長"},{"start":5525.273,"end":5546.101,"text":"好 邱委員好是 史副總我今天想跟你交流醫療暴力的問題那我想醫療暴力這件事呢我在想醫療暴力零容忍我希望它不是口號是落實在我們的一個行為當中那事實上過去五年關於醫療暴力的統計其實是與之俱增我想數字會說話那其實是有增無減這樣子那其實常發生的場域就是急診那常發生的"},{"start":5552.384,"end":5575.923,"text":"他一樣就是言語的暴力那肢體的暴力當然也不少那受害的對象當然就是醫護理人員是占多數那醫師也有那大約是兩成那有這樣的統計數字那當然關於醫療暴力的關照我們的這個醫療法其實有做了一個雙軌的一個處罰就是希望能夠產生一些恫嚇力讓一些"},{"start":5577.925,"end":5597.365,"text":"這個想要執行這些妨礙醫療行為的人能夠有所忌憚那雙軌的處罰當然有一軌就叫做行政法那這規範在醫療法24條我想部長非常了解就是任何人都不能夠用強暴脅迫恐嚇或者是非法方式妨礙醫療業務執行那行政法就是3萬到5萬這樣子那當然這個"},{"start":5600.648,"end":5615.76,"text":"妨礙醫療業務的行為如果他一樣嚴重程度比較高有可能就會觸犯到一個刑法的規定刑法刑事責任的規定那就是醫療法106的規定那106的規定當然他就是一個刑事責任那他就是會被處三年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":5616.34,"end":5639.47,"text":"但是我們覺得這個三年以下是不是應該設一個刑度的下限例如說六個月以上因為如果六個月以上然後法官他在判刑的時候能夠往七個月八個月判也許今天比較不會有一些一顆法金的機會因為一顆法金恫嚇就比較低嘛那事實上為什麼我剛剛這樣說因為事實上今年一月天下報導"},{"start":5640.771,"end":5664.24,"text":"他其實就呈現出來說其實這些醫療暴力其實九成都是有罪但是呢判的這個刑度大概都只有這個2.9個月然後大部分都是用醫科法庭手腕那如同我剛剛說的恫嚇力就比較不足那當然醫院開始有一些紛紛自救的行為我想不是最近從以前到現在就是這樣那醫院也做了一些什麼即時通報系統然後甚至"},{"start":5665.22,"end":5685.721,"text":"自救上還有成立了一個叫做防生素的社團啊好那我在想說醫院他自救當然是我們尊重他那也真的是一聲苦笑我覺得我們國家的行政作為不能蒼白無力所以剛我有提到說那個有期徒刑能不能收一個下限那六個月那部長好像也頻頻點頭所以是代表認同嗎對支持"},{"start":5687.242,"end":5706.572,"text":"支持嗎那不知道這個衛福部這邊會不會有一些相對應的一個對岸因為其實我們有提出法案那衛福部是支持就可以了還是說會有一些相對應的一個修法版本因為每個人的版本不一樣每個委員聽出來的刑度並不一樣那可以一個月給我們你們的想法嗎"},{"start":5707.455,"end":5730.942,"text":"因為支持就代表支持六個月了嗎我們的想法當然已經在今天的書面報告裡面已經呈現了那因為也有不同委員的版本因為一樣修24條跟106條有好幾位委員的版本所以到時候如果這個這個召委安排進入逐條審查的時候我們會適時的表示意見看看怎麼樣來融合"},{"start":5732.042,"end":5746.218,"text":"我知道好了解好那其實剛講的是醫療暴力發生在醫療機構那事實上護理機構也曾經也發生醫療暴力的情形是時有所聞所在多有那我這邊PPT呈現出來的就是一些司法判決"},{"start":5747.319,"end":5771.619,"text":"當然不限於這些但是這是司法判決這樣子那我想請問一下部長就是說因為剛我們對於一些醫療暴力有些統計數字例如說他太陽啦然後逐年的一些數字啦然後發生的一個例如說對象是誰因為醫療護理機構也有造福院嘛那不知道衛福部有沒有統計這些數字那如果有統計這些數字可不可以好有請這個市長"},{"start":5775.496,"end":5798.35,"text":"護理機構目前沒有這個數字所以是沒有這個數字嘛好那我就了解好那我現在就是想要為我們護理機構來請命因為我們護理機構其實如同因為我們剛剛有看到那個司法判決的表格嘛也發生醫療暴力所以這個醫療法的24其實跟106其實某個程度會產生恫嚇的效果那可不可以也把這個醫療法24條106的概念"},{"start":5801.772,"end":5822.317,"text":"複製貼上到我們的護理人員法因為護理機構是護理人員法所規範那不知道可不可以我想如果比較簡單的做法因為如果我們現在已經進入到這個醫療法的修法那麼到時候我們以這個函式的方式或者是施行細則修訂讓這個護理機構那麼納入在醫療機構的這個涵蓋就是"},{"start":5830.078,"end":5848.064,"text":"這裡面有提到醫療機構或其他類似機構那麼我們把它涵蓋到民事的這個明顯的寫入包含這當中包含所以你們是想用韓式的方式把這個其他鄉類可是那個是第二項耶第二項是對物的毀損"},{"start":5849.144,"end":5870.96,"text":"第三項是對人的傷害那第二項有其他鄉內的場所啊但是第三項並沒有這個其他鄉內場所的文字好來我先跟部長分享一下我跟委員先說明因為第三項是針對人所以只要是對到人的所以護理人員就在醫事人員裡面所以不論這個人員在哪裡執行業務那麼至於第二項是對場所"},{"start":5872.501,"end":5900.86,"text":"那場所的部分它裡面有提到醫療機構或其他像類似場所所以我們只要把其他像類似場所把它解釋清楚說這裡面當然也包含了這個護理機構好我跟部長分享一下啦因為我們是希望用護理人員法來把這個24跟106複製過來那第一你可以思考一下等一下再回答我就困難度在哪裡我不太知道我想要請教第二個問題就是說因為我剛有呈現司法判決其實司法判決相對應過來就是判決結果"},{"start":5902.641,"end":5924.87,"text":"所以其實司法實務其實已經直接去借用醫療法106了其實司法實務已經直接去借用醫療法106了那只是說既然司法實務他直接借用了106的話他直接借用106那為什麼我還要在這邊就是請教部長爭取這件事因為我覺得如果能夠把它規範在護理人員法裡頭護理機構"},{"start":5926.511,"end":5946.688,"text":"護理機構裡面其實它是一種宣示作用然後它是一種宣示你要保障護理人員的一個效果啦那事實上其實司法實務其實已經這樣操作了已經是這樣操作了跟委員說明剛剛有提到醫療法第106條第三項是針對人那人的部分他講的就是醫事人員"},{"start":5947.288,"end":5953.575,"text":"那醫事人員就包含了護理人員所以他用這樣的話是完全正確的因為你知道醫療法24跟106放在醫療法嗎那醫療法其實是在規範醫療機構的啦"},{"start":5962.425,"end":5977.495,"text":"護理機構其實是被護理人員法所規範那沒有關係啦反正我覺得部長帶回去思考一下因為其實我這個只是做刑事上的爭取因為實質上司法裁判其實就已經是按照106裁判因為現在醫療法裡面已經適用了106條第三項是針對人嘛應該是借用啦"},{"start":5981.457,"end":5998.899,"text":"司法職務去借用啦因為你知道醫療法是規範醫療機構我現在在講護理機構好來所以一個月的賣錢剛其實第一題你已經回覆我們了嘛就主條的時候整合版本然後衛福部再表態那基本上是支持的那再來醫療暴力雖然說醫療你剛已經提到說嘛"},{"start":5999.079,"end":6015.48,"text":"其實現在醫療法那24106都可以拿來借用嘛都可以拿來使用那如果拿來使用的話其實24條我記得大概在第四項還第五項有說要定期公告醫療暴力的數字但是現在護理機構就沒有公布這個數字啊所以可以可不可以請部長補這個數字給我們"},{"start":6017.369,"end":6029.981,"text":"那如果系統沒有建立起來是不是未來應該要建立因為至少讓我們知道護理機構發生醫療暴力的太陽跟建樹就是部長這個護理機構醫療暴力的統計數字啦"},{"start":6032.383,"end":6053.582,"text":"因為你說已經可以直接使用啦那那個24條我記得好像第4項第5項已經說要公告數字啊你們目前好像沒有嘛所以既然可以直接使用要不要統計一下我們請業務單位分析看看分析看看好那之後看能不能給我們回覆一個月那當然24跟106你剛剛有一些帶回去思考一下那部長我想今天的熱門新聞應該是三班戶"},{"start":6054.443,"end":6080.194,"text":"好像看到一點曙光嘛那其實我有注意您好像前幾天有提到說就是1月護理人員的回流呢有5000多個那我看到那5000多個你也是甚感高興嘛那我也是覺得很欣慰我們護理人員就是逐漸有回流的跡象那就讓我想到說我記得衛福部呢之前好像做一些統計資料的分析說三班護病比如果要入法的話人力缺口是缺7553啦"},{"start":6082.375,"end":6102.965,"text":"所以我那時候看到你說有五千多個人回流的時候我那時候真的我看到一線曙光就是感覺我們離衛福部所設的目標75553好像已經不遙遠了然後我那時候就滿懷希望想說今天會看到你想要跟你請教到底這個曙光能不能出現這樣子那沒想到昨天其實您去參加這個因為我們護士節到了然後參加一些頒獎典禮那其實你們就就是這邊好像有透露出來說"},{"start":6111.169,"end":6138.467,"text":"那個護病筆三班三班護病筆入法的時程已經要開始研議了而且會組成一個叫做推動小組還是研議小組的嗎那也有人問我說這個研議推動小組是不是已經成立了那你不是回答說未來會成立就代表現在沒成立嗎那這是昨天中午的新聞那結果我們今天中午看到這個新聞其實應該是過了21日好像有數變的感覺就是說"},{"start":6141.389,"end":6143.131,"text":"因為我不曉得因為這是今天中午12點半的新聞好像提到說因為你剛說要演藝小組要討論入法的時間啊怎麼現在這個是劇傳啊劇傳所以這是謠言這個不是我講的確定是謠言好"},{"start":6156.582,"end":6180.643,"text":"那部長我今天就是代表護理人員在這邊跟你做澄清所以不是兩年嘛不是兩年後入法我應該這樣子講說第一個是我們要成立一個這個研議的小組這個是一定會來成立然後在這個小組裡面來討論那麼如何的入法那如何的推動然後才會定出期程所以最終的"},{"start":6182.052,"end":6203.061,"text":"這些細節的部分要等這個小組討論之後我們才會對外去說明所以聯合報這個所謂兩年我們現在就不要認真把它當答案嘛因為這只是謠言那麼我要講的是說剛剛委員所看到的那個人力缺口指的是急性一般病床三方物病比的人力缺口的樂觀推估那個是一個樂觀推估當時候的樂觀推估"},{"start":6206.762,"end":6221.92,"text":"那但是我們是看到這個護理人力真正的成長回到疫情前是從去年年底12月開始那個大概是近4700位左右嘛然後到3月份這個大概是4900位啦"},{"start":6223.081,"end":6242.853,"text":"可是這個是全部競爭家那全部的競爭家不代表全部都會流入醫院因為他還有像長照機構或者是診所他們也需要所以真正流入到醫院大概在六成三千名左右那三千名裡面真正又到急性一般病床因為裡面還有很多人力在流動"},{"start":6243.573,"end":6257.598,"text":"所以他也不會全部都是在急性一般病床所以這裡面大概差不多一層左右三分之一到一千多人是流入到這個急性一般病床所以他還是需要有漸進式所以我剛才講說"},{"start":6258.698,"end":6277.351,"text":"他真正要達到這個現在我們說的三班戶病比的那個獎勵的標準需要時間的謝謝部長澄清因為我看到五千個那個數字我真的是感覺好像看到希望一樣沒想到篩選之後進入急性一般病房只有一千那我想問一下一這是"},{"start":6277.751,"end":6284.073,"text":"75534112年9月的數字其實現在已經是15年了嘛這個數字還不準因為它要滾動因為它是113年那不知道可不可以給我們現行人力缺口的數字讓我們可以來做一個監督來做一個了解我們在詳細的討論之後因為我們還要找第一線就是醫院第一線的才知道實際上的流入情形各層級的醫院也有它的不同所以不能夠用總數"},{"start":6306.26,"end":6330.64,"text":"因為現在這個缺口你們應該可以掌握你們是要找研議小組是要討論幾年要入法嗎還有這些推估的數字也要做確認那現在人力缺口有嗎我們到底三幫互聘比入法一定有缺口啊那個人數你沒有掌握因為你如果人數沒有掌握你怎麼樣要去推合年合月合日入法我們有一個推估的方式詳細的數字我們會可以分享給我們嗎我們"},{"start":6333.862,"end":6351.971,"text":"更確認之後我們不希望說把不正確的訊息也提供給委員所以我們要正確的訊息因為我看到那五千五千我真的是非常的開心因為我真的也很想趕快上班護病比諸法看到五千離七千距離非常近所以我兩年其實就是搖眼嘛"},{"start":6352.771,"end":6374.415,"text":"因為這邊提到說118這是私刑 我覺得有點傻眼是118搞不好賴總統已經不是現任的總統了 已經卸任了那怎麼會有一個總統 他在幫別的總統實施政見他如果要實施政見 應該是要在2028年之前實施政見啊這裡講到118就讓人家質疑啦所以今天我站在這邊 剛好有一個機會跟你澄清所以不會這樣嘛"},{"start":6377.656,"end":6404.291,"text":"總統他的資料是幫自己開的兩年後入法應該是幾年吧正確的日出時間我們會再經過詳細討論那麼能不能夠在118那也不是一定也要看看我們一直提到說真正全世界呢把三班互併比入法的國家或地區是有限的並不是全面性美國的部分州不是全國澳洲也是部分州它也不是全國"},{"start":6404.991,"end":6411.899,"text":"所以就是部分州啦就是部分州啊那因為只有部分州納入那我們也承認了這些州實施之後它的研究報告我們也看了那確實它也有一些正面的好處但是也帶來一些負面的影響"},{"start":6423.413,"end":6436.191,"text":"所以我們如果要來三班Ruby筆錄法不希望有這些造成關窗更嚴重病人住院更困難的副作用所以我們需要有完整的配套之後再來錄法實施這才是負責任的做法"},{"start":6440.817,"end":6443.28,"text":"確認一件事就是說因為我們台灣民眾黨其實在有提一個醫療法第12條第三項的徵定然後在去年12月12號已經進負二讀了嘛那其實我們這個版本呢跟你的做法一模一樣就是希望你們能夠衛福部我們期待我們期許衛福部能夠在設置標準裡頭放入三班戶病病"},{"start":6460.561,"end":6484.616,"text":"那顯然就是你們接下來找研議小組要去討論的事情嘛所以你們的做法跟我們不一樣只是你們直接在執法做這件事而我們是在設置標準的母法也就是醫療法把這件事定下來這件事定下來並沒有具體的數字只是部許衛福部齊許衛福部能夠去制定三班護病比所以我們有一個醫療法那其實今天我不知道因為您說這個好像報導有一點"},{"start":6489.099,"end":6501.59,"text":"我想這個修法上我們並不贊成這個疊床架屋式的修法啦因為三八屋並比啊那麼是不是一定要每年這樣子修訂呢這個都應該"},{"start":6502.571,"end":6516.055,"text":"沒有啦 定期啦 我們其實可以定期檢討所以我們的短本有個優點 什麼優點呢就是我們PUSH未服不入法因為護理人員等待這個真的不待太久了然後再來可以組成資訊委員會定期的去檢討我想這是回應基層護理人員的期待我們很重視護理人員的權益我們覺得這個護理人員的這個工作應該要減輕這些都應該要來做"},{"start":6530.56,"end":6539.73,"text":"他說我們各項的配套不是只有三班戶病不入法這一項而已所以再請部長我這邊統整一下因為主席已經站起來我們也尊重主席就是關於護理機構醫療暴力的數據可不可以整理一下給我們然後24106複製到護理機構當然你有解套的方式但我這邊是期許"},{"start":6551.062,"end":6571.95,"text":"可是實務其實已經這樣在操作然後再來就是人力缺口因為三班戶並比入法當然你們要組成小組但我們立法委員也要監督所以現行的人力缺口可不可以給我們因為75534112年9月的嘛現行的人力缺口讓我們知道一下我們一起努力我們一起來為護理人員三班戶並比入法來努力這樣子以上說明謝謝謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝邱蕙若委員的諮詢現在請劉建國委員諮詢"},{"start":6583.514,"end":6600.969,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我是這個醫藥法部分條文的提案委員剛剛沒有提案說明就請主席多個兩分鐘就好了好 主席請坐 謝謝今天提出醫藥法第49條50條還有24級106以及98之一的修正草案那分別是針對醫藥"},{"start":6602.65,"end":6607.693,"text":"醫療社團法輪的這個困境來做解套包含醫療的暴力的防治與醫療鑑定拒絕的爭議的這樣問題那當初醫療社團法輪的這個制度是從民國93年"},{"start":6614.722,"end":6634.516,"text":"醫療法修正後創設到現在已經二十百年以地區醫院和區域醫院為主當初為了這個制度是要協助私人醫院轉型達到永續在當時的這個時空背景下衛生署擔心醫療體系的公益性受到影響所以加了一個規定法人不得為醫療社團法人的社員"},{"start":6635.68,"end":6652.674,"text":"然後這樣的一個限制二十多年後的今天卻已經成為掐住這個地區或區域醫院的一道魔咒讓這些地區區域醫院無法順利轉型或升級進而影響到當地病患就醫的權利影響甚大所以才提這個部分提案的修正草案"},{"start":6653.334,"end":6669.626,"text":"那針對醫療暴力的問題在今年1月起台中澄清醫院南投東華醫院新店更新醫院陸陸續續持續的發生多起暴力事件這些暴力事件嚴重影響醫療現場安全與照護品質為維護醫療秩序與人員的安全保障病人獲得穩定照護師權利"},{"start":6670.547,"end":6681.811,"text":"所以本席提案來修正醫療機構應強化建立暴力防治的機制同時加重處罰緩緩醫療暴力一再重演那最後針對的是刑事鑑定的新制實施後造成無疑似專業人員願意擔任刑事訴訟程序之鑑定人或"},{"start":6689.313,"end":6716.551,"text":"醫事審議委員會的這個審定的等問題嚴重影響到醫療司法案件的進行因此要解決並同時能夠兼顧條約形式醫事鑑定的制度的客觀性公平性那促使這個形式的醫療案件之機關鑑定制度得以順利進行所以本席也提案來徵修這個醫療法第98條之一的規定以上的說明那也請公部門還有委員的同仁來"},{"start":6717.782,"end":6746.457,"text":"予以支持那部長有請部長了今天招委很辛苦排了兩個案特別針對醫藥法這個修法草案中我是針對49條我是有提案做這個修法那這兩條是有關於醫療社團化人這部分部長應該非常清楚這承遠的相關規定93年到現在他就是剛剛我特別在修法的說明特別提到說協助地區的私人醫院的永續核轉型"},{"start":6748.179,"end":6762.048,"text":"讓這些的私人醫院不會再因為沒有子女醫師資格繼承使得這些地區醫院被迫關門所以醫療法也增訂了醫療社團法人的概念來協助這些地區私人醫院可以持續為地方來服務那90年到現在20來年了"},{"start":6764.009,"end":6777.246,"text":"現在大概應該剩下三五六十家啦那其中還有幾家病床數也高達一千多床的規模的地區醫院的存在那這些醫院長期跟地方居民連結甚至很多醫療不足的地方來說"},{"start":6779.454,"end":6795.915,"text":"我們針對這些醫療社交環境的醫院他還也兼顧著這個急重症或急救醫院的責任所以他對所在地的民眾的意義可以說是好像是守護了一個土地公還是守護神的一樣的存在那我們對"},{"start":6797.176,"end":6826.508,"text":"不管是手術成徒立功在目前的醫療法的限制下面臨很大的營運上的一個困難尤其是面對醫療的科技日新月累過去的老建築物或設備已經無法跟上這個治療需求要擴建增購設備需要高額資金使這些醫療社團法人在從事資金上就出現很大的一個困難嘛齁如果財團法人醫院像長庚一樣當然說除了公益捐助還有稅務優惠那財團法人醫院本身在付稅上也有很多的兼免"},{"start":6827.268,"end":6842.968,"text":"這些在醫療社黨法人通通沒有這個很奇怪啦那社黨法人的醫藥是以自然能為社員組成財政部認定理屬於投資共同經營的概念所以因此要繳營利事業所的稅未分配營餘還是要再加徵"},{"start":6844.85,"end":6867.981,"text":"一樣在地扶桑經營卻是兩套的次度財團法輪的醫院可以從捐贈來獲得資金例如還有公立醫院如台大、龍塚、不利醫院等等等是醫院一樣都有公務預算的這個相關意志那這些私營醫院根本不可能嘛"},{"start":6868.801,"end":6893.259,"text":"所以現在雲霧料也一直在上漲然後很多的這些藥品、備品等等等也都在上漲連現在的包裝那個只要是塑膠的都持續在上漲中所以我想要聽部長的意見啦就針對這些醫療社童法人在地的守護神、圖利工、老舊院士無法升級無法購得更新進的設備遇到天災人禍無法及時的修繕時最終他受傷最嚴重的"},{"start":6896.421,"end":6912.997,"text":"還是在地最無辜的這個病患所以我們當初醫療社團網的設立就是希望這些地區的事業能夠永續經營服務地方但是被醫療法掐住了他們快沒辦法喘氣了所以因此真的不得不修法的地步部長認同嗎"},{"start":6915.059,"end":6934.756,"text":"我非常認同剛剛委員的這些提案的背景跟這個緣由啦事實上就如同委員所提到這個最早在修醫療社團法人這個49條的時候是著眼於我們過去只有私人醫院只有以個人來興辦那但是呢"},{"start":6935.376,"end":6959.505,"text":"可能因為凋零或者是他沒有辦法永續經營的情形之下希望以法人的形式成立所以才有捐助性質的醫療財團法人跟還是以個人的資本那麼融合的醫療社團法人這兩種的法人形態不過當時候只限縮在自然人為社員"},{"start":6960.285,"end":6978.887,"text":"甚至今日呢其實這個社會的這個這個背景也都改變了我舉例而言以這個長照法人而言就已經是允許法人為社員那麼這個也有先例的那只是說長照法人法是後面比較新的法律那這個醫療法是比較"},{"start":6980.468,"end":7007.565,"text":"前面的比較早期的所以我們現在來檢討讓這個醫療社團法人的組成能夠更具有一個彈性的來源我覺得是一個好的時機啦那麼只是說我們還是希望呢那麼能夠兼顧到這個醫療的這個公益的本質所以在未來這樣有法人那麼進入到這個醫療社團法人的這一些管理的這個"},{"start":7009.766,"end":7028.681,"text":"方式可能我們再來討論如何讓他這個適當的管理能讓維持住他的公益本性對 反正部長答覆我基本上就是朝向朝向更包容更多元的方式來做這個修法對不起我不是不讓你講下去因為我答應我的兩個同事我不能超過時間"},{"start":7031.103,"end":7051.6,"text":"這個林刺在去年 林刺啦 美麗的林刺長喔他說如果開放盈利性的法人入主醫療社團法人後容易透過關西企業進行高價租賃採購外包與收入租賃等可能讓醫療社團法人成為困苦中心侵蝕醫療本業資源不曉得部長怎麼看"},{"start":7052.21,"end":7080.762,"text":"好 我想是這樣就是說當我們有盈利性的法人入主到這個醫療社團法人之後那我們如何透過我們法規的修訂讓盈餘的部分仍然有更多的比例可以留在這個醫療社團法人而不是分配回去這個原本的盈利性法人我覺得這個是在管理上我們可以來設計的對 這個一定是可以規範的啦對不對 好不曉得在看這個表格啦這張表格"},{"start":7081.582,"end":7106.316,"text":"大致上就混為這個樣子嘛 設立了基礎就我就不再去說這個你非常熟悉理論上醫院就是公益事業啦哪有你混財團法人還是社團法人基本上就這樣對不對但就制度的分類確實有這樣的差異性存在這也是不真的事實嘛所以事實上單一如果開放了異性法人入署醫療這個社團法人就可能讓醫院的公益性質消失殆盡我覺得我們要擔心這個問題之前"},{"start":7108.698,"end":7123.973,"text":"應該到底什麼時候才會面對已經有營利事實的這些醫療財東華人嘛我們大家都知道嘛長崑的醫療財東華人這個舊的大醫院齁他手上持有台塑世保的股票對不對2017年那個時候應該部長在當144的司長嘛你覺得發生什麼事急診風暴對不對然後"},{"start":7130.519,"end":7146.921,"text":"你知道當時是因為急診部的成本負擔過重常跟以急診部的高階主管業績不達標準為由借出或懲處多位急診室的主管然後並縮編這個急診部這個是高度營業取向的惡性事件"},{"start":7148.282,"end":7169.848,"text":"這句話要講十分鐘也說不完因為他當時大企業不敢這口叫急診室的醫生口嘛從護院調了很多的急診室的醫師回來嘛 對不對還調到哪裡 調到麥寮長庚麥寮長庚才幾個急診室的醫生兩個而已 他把他調一個回來另外一個急診室的醫師 他每天就自己要急診了啦"},{"start":7174.85,"end":7196.667,"text":"那我們對醫療財團法人我們是這樣的寬斗這個實在太離譜了這個再講就會超過大約他們的時間現在目前提到說政府給醫療財團法人有很多的稅務減免且醫法必須分別提撥這個醫療的收入結益的10%作為攝護金或教研金承擔醫療公益的責任2019年建財院調查有高達41%的財團法人醫院攝護金提撥不足"},{"start":7201.771,"end":7214.467,"text":"現在到底怎樣我不知道啦這要不斷再了解一下我想這些巨大的醫療財團法人如果為什麼不這樣處理然後又對照社團的醫療法人我就覺得真的是極盡的"},{"start":7216.69,"end":7228.834,"text":"沒有道理也不公平嘛所以我現在是想說給部長再一句話參考看看針對這個醫療社會法人的討論也不是現在才有這個民進已經探討非常久就當時2025年"},{"start":7233.596,"end":7258.192,"text":"有人提出這樣一個論引力並非罪惡引力法人只要用良好的法令制度規範使其正常引力一樣可以造福社會反之披著公益法人的外皮如未在良善制度下給予適當監督其公益外皮下的引力性不亞於引力法人且脫序後將變成引少數人之利的工具"},{"start":7260.373,"end":7278.336,"text":"福利讓人懂嘛盈利並非罪惡這是對的但是我們所有的醫院呢是不應以盈利為目的啦但是也不能夠虧損虧損的話呢就是變成是這個社會國家要去負擔啦所以他還是應該要有適當的盈餘"},{"start":7279.497,"end":7291.01,"text":"才能做員工的福利薪資的改善新進設備的更新這些都是必要的所以主管機關的責任是不論他是醫療社團法人不論是醫療財團法人應該要有適當的監管"},{"start":7294.414,"end":7320.924,"text":"那當然這個要本於法律上的這個授權規定來執行至於盈餘的分配就變成是後面的重點那麼以財團法人來講醫療財團法人是不得分配盈餘那醫療社團法人跟私人醫院是可以分配盈餘所以未來這個盈餘這個部分還是有落差這個我當然知道因為時間的關係我時間也到了嘛所以我是本期就是希望我們可以透過聯合法的這樣的一個法令的制度規範"},{"start":7322.724,"end":7335.436,"text":"這個疫苗的社團法人能正常的營運繼續長久的守護所在地區的民眾的健康安全那我也希望部長有決心啦能夠提出這個香港的修法用良好的法令制度來規範這個疫苗財團法人也能正常營運"},{"start":7339.359,"end":7349.089,"text":"這個部長應該OK吧我支持劉委員的看法好 謝謝時間到那天已經響鈴了不能超過因為兩個女人不是單單看著我謝謝劉建國委員謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長有請石部長"},{"start":7370.011,"end":7387.016,"text":"在這個凱凱案社工招判刑的這個問題那衛福部在之前也有召集跟社工界進行座談我看到就是說跟社工界還有法務部司法院還有法界專家代表大家進行座談討論那針對這個保證人的地位有進行討論"},{"start":7392.137,"end":7416.845,"text":"那我想這個會後我看到就是說會後次長有針對這一部分就是說將給予第一線專業人員實質的保障那衛福部就是考慮參考醫療法的精神修訂社會工作施法未來社工有故意或過失或違反了注意義務或專業裁量範圍者才須負民行事責任"},{"start":7417.785,"end":7443.712,"text":"好那針對這一部分我想請教因為這個法件對於保證人的這個地位是不是適用在社工還沒有就是還沒有確定還沒有定論那這個針對這一部分就是說我們很多就是要用具體的這個個案或情境來做判斷才會比較正確那部長就是說如果"},{"start":7444.592,"end":7467.667,"text":"依據這個個案或情境來判斷那麼就會需要有社會工作專業的鑑定機制是不是這樣子跟委員說明確實就是說這一次的這個判決引用了保證人地位這樣的法律概念那麼在我們日前所召開的這些專家會議裡面當然也有不同的看法"},{"start":7468.047,"end":7482.068,"text":"所以這個大概還不是整個法界的共同的概念就是我們的社工都是要適用這樣的公正人保證人地位的這樣的概念這是第一個那第二個當然就是希望那麼讓像"},{"start":7483.65,"end":7502.623,"text":"像這個醫事人員一樣我們社工在第一線從事的業務其實也是救死扶傷那麼也具有很多的不確定性很多的緊急急迫性等等的這個救人的事情所以呢那麼希望能夠我們也來討論比較像醫事人員一樣讓他"},{"start":7503.644,"end":7519.356,"text":"在民刑事應付的責任上面能夠合理明確所以這個可能我們會來研議看看是不是要來修訂社工司法這樣但是畢竟它還是有很多的落差每個個案還是有它的不同"},{"start":7521.557,"end":7535.282,"text":"所以當然我們盡量的訂各種的工作守則或者是指引可是這個就像醫療一樣你再怎麼訂這些指引守則都還是有一些例外的情形會發生所以如何循著這個專業團體的這個"},{"start":7539.863,"end":7562.028,"text":"這個同儕這個鑑定的模式像我們現在的這個意識鑑定或者是專業意見的概念一樣那麼在同儕的標準上來衡量這個當事人的行為有沒有這個超越了我們的所謂的常規或者是應注意的義務這樣"},{"start":7563.268,"end":7582.889,"text":"那所以你們現在正在收集各方的意見嗎對對對對對那像這樣子的話就是說這個指引要訂定這個指引你們需要多久的時間指引是有各種不同的工作指引那只是說未來要去修這個社工司法去明訂這樣的這個民刑事這個"},{"start":7587.047,"end":7609.855,"text":"這個民情市的責任那麼以及這個有發生正義過程的審議程序這個我們會再繼續收集意見那我們現在已經規劃在五六月會再辦這個市場分區全國各區的這個社工第一線的一些座談會來收集意見之後那我們再來下半年來提出這個演繹這樣"},{"start":7611.115,"end":7639.156,"text":"部長我一直在強調就是說社工服務的對象大部分都是比較屬於高脆弱的這個族群所以當然就是說這個凱凱案發生我們當然是不樂見可是未來就是說社工的這個部分因為每個個案的狀況是不一樣的我們也希望就是說這個收集各界的意見然後指引趕快制定下來讓所有的社工有一個依據那接下來我想請教就是說"},{"start":7641.317,"end":7667.208,"text":"看到我們所有的這個就是社福的這個服務多大部分好像地方的社會處我們彰化地方的社會處他就會委託給一般的這個社福團體就是一些服務的案件或者是需要服務的就是委託給地方的這個社福團體那其實我也看到就是說有一些社福團體他們也會反映就是說"},{"start":7668.588,"end":7674.772,"text":"很多他們有的還需要可能就是你們用那個總發價包總包價法總包價法的這種方式來把這個業務發包給這個民間的社福團體那這樣子的話就是說有一些矛盾就是"},{"start":7691.66,"end":7704.168,"text":"產生契約約定還有那個實際的給付的一些矛盾那有的是造成就是承包的這個社福團體他們有很大的一個困擾甚至有些這些民間的這個團體他們可能就是用這個總包價法"},{"start":7708.991,"end":7724.703,"text":"那其實整個可能這個費用也不夠所以他們還要必須去募款那有的是影響整個服務的品質啦所以我想請教就是說未來衛福部有沒有去研議就是說比較合理然後可行的處理方式"},{"start":7725.764,"end":7747.64,"text":"跟委員說明我們有一個社會福利服務採購溝通協商指引這裡面就包含了這些契約的範本補助作業要點經費編列等等的一些原則我們現在在檢討這個指引我們把它做一些比較和實務上需要的一些修訂"},{"start":7748.52,"end":7766.752,"text":"我希望就是說政府既然有這麼多的社福的這種案件是需要委託民間團體來做那你當然就是說要讓這個服務品質好然後也不要就是說好像要壓榨這些社福團體其實我覺得這樣都不好當然政府你就是要讓這些社福團體有"},{"start":7773.897,"end":7785.928,"text":"足夠的這個經費來做這個服務因為服務的對象其實我剛剛講的都是比較脆弱的一個族群所以我希望部長針對這部分我們希望能夠從"},{"start":7788.021,"end":7810.932,"text":"我們衛福部本身來做起那甚至我們可以要求地方政府就是當然就是預算如果充足的話這個民間團體民間的社福團體他們可以把我們的政府發泡給他們這個政府可以做得好如果沒辦法的話其實我覺得那個品質一定是會有打折的啦所以我希望部長針對這一部分我們能夠"},{"start":7813.994,"end":7830.47,"text":"針對這一部分可以讓社福團體一層包政府的業務不要讓他們覺得說好像政府用少少的經費然後就需要民間社福團體來做大大的服務我覺得這樣是不對的當然就是說這個預算是充足然後讓他們沒有後顧之憂"},{"start":7835.974,"end":7861.827,"text":"當然跟委員說明確實我們過去對各項的經費的使用都會從防弊的角色來看所以都會很嚴謹的訂很多但是確實應該要讓第一線在執行的單位能夠具有它的一些彈性跟制度性所以我們來訂一些大原則然後保留一些彈性這樣"},{"start":7862.847,"end":7880.686,"text":"因為你們當然也要輔導他們怎麼樣去做這些這個合帳啦合銷這些也是很重要免得這個到時候這個又延伸其他的問題當然是不好啊對所以我希望就是說政府單位把業務"},{"start":7882.188,"end":7899.807,"text":"這個委託或者是這個發包給民間的團體那當然我們也要制定我剛剛講的這個也許你也要有一些比較合理的方式來跟他們我跟他說這是政府跟地方這個合作就是最好的一個合作的方式因為你政府沒辦法做那麼多工作嘛"},{"start":7900.908,"end":7927.549,"text":"那當然就是需要民間大家做會來合作那才能讓這個社會能夠需要幫助的人能夠得到好的幫助那另外我想請教部長就是說我一直在覺得說目前的社工我講真的非常的辛苦啦那尤其是那個保護性的這個社工保護性的社工因為我一直聽到就是說其實保護性的社工那他們的那個風險"},{"start":7928.57,"end":7943.16,"text":"其實比一般的社工也高或者是比一般的職業也都高因為我講的他們面對的就是可能就是比較脆弱的一個族群那像這樣子的話就是社工的這個薪資因為"},{"start":7946.187,"end":7966.724,"text":"一般的社工可能就差不多三萬八、三萬九那保護性的社工可能差不多四萬二左右那可能還有一個這個風險津貼大約還有一個一千塊的風險津貼那像這樣子的話是不是可以去考慮一下未來公部門的約聘僱的社工的待遇是不是有調整的空間"},{"start":7967.625,"end":7994.903,"text":"好跟文說明因為這個還有新點還有風險加急啦這兩塊可以大家來調整新點可能會按照這個物價啦那風險就看到他實務上他所工作上的屬性來調整所以我們來檢討看看這個按照這個實際上的這個風險程度跟近年的這個社會這個消費的情形我們來做檢討"},{"start":7999.946,"end":8019.252,"text":"我希望部長因為這個衛福部是照顧我們所有民眾不論是在福利或者是健康衛福部站的真的是非常重要的一個角色那當然這個我們在基層或者是這些需要被幫助的人其實有一些就是我們衛福部跟基層的這個"},{"start":8020.472,"end":8040.527,"text":"地方政府還有民間團體大家一起來合作所以我覺得說讓第一線的社工能夠願意留在職場那第一線社工願意留在職場我覺得這是很重要的所以我覺得願意留在職場你當然就是薪資你不能讓他覺得說我做其他工作薪資都還比我當社工還高"},{"start":8041.528,"end":8057.031,"text":"那這樣他可能就會跳槽到其他工作區嘛所以讓這些社工願意留在這個地方那我覺得新資也許可以從公部門的這些社工開始是不是可以做一個適度的一個調整好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝黃秀芳我的質詢現在請林玥琴 趙偉的質詢"},{"start":8070.82,"end":8077.29,"text":"呃 謝謝主席 有請石部長 有請石成良部長不好意思好 李委員好"},{"start":8080.527,"end":8102.569,"text":"部長午安那部長好剛剛有一則獨家新聞說衛福部跟醫界護理界討論多時的三班戶病比終於有了新的進展衛福部將戶病比納入我們的醫療機構設置標準且定有兩年的緩衝時間預計118年正式實施"},{"start":8105.191,"end":8129.688,"text":"我想要給部長一個肯定其實不只這樣我想衛福部早就頒布了許多有關護理人員的獎勵方案護理師也確實在最近有回流的趨勢顯示政策方向可能是對的但還是有定期檢視現況的必要性讓護理師能夠得到真正的保障可是我要問部長剛剛在我們前面有在野黨的委員在質詢的時候說衛福部又突襲了賴總統又突襲宣布要入法請問是這樣嗎"},{"start":8135.983,"end":8160.81,"text":"這個其實是我們一向大家都關切的議題其實護理人員是我們醫療體系裡面不可或缺的資助那前幾年因為疫情的關係太勞累了所以在疫情後端的時候就開始出現護理人員流失有一年我還記得很清楚那一年整個醫院新增的護理人員例才300名一年"},{"start":8161.61,"end":8176.262,"text":"所以這個真的是造成關床造成後床的這個急診的擁捨這個情形都相關聯性不過經過了我們的努力去年我們的健保點值也提升了那今年我們的健保總額又"},{"start":8177.483,"end":8190.132,"text":"超過了一兆那麼我們裡面也特別也去調整這個護理費那另外我們也有這個護理12項的改革的計畫從去年開始推動4年這個275億再加上零零總總其實"},{"start":8194.455,"end":8207.314,"text":"還有這個住院的整合照護計畫也在分擔護理人員的照顧壓力等等我們是很多措施在進行其實我們目的都是希望得到一個平衡一方面能夠讓這個護理的工作職場"},{"start":8210.478,"end":8236.723,"text":"能夠更好 包含薪資的改善 條件的改善但是我們也要兼顧到整個醫療體系的穩定運作那病人要住院也不會有困難這些我們都需要這個是有負責任的推動不是說今天入法就要入法所以我們才會需要這樣一步一步的來所以我要嚴正的幫部長來澄清 三萬戶病比"},{"start":8237.216,"end":8253.173,"text":"路法在衛福部應該討論非常久了光是我自己和護理師醫師相關團體和衛福部就討論非常多次絕對不是在黨委員講的說又突襲處理一句話否定掉衛福部跟其他委員的努力我認為這樣子非常的"},{"start":8254.793,"end":8278.71,"text":"讓努力的人都沒辦法為自己來說說話所以這邊也要來做澄清再來關於醫療暴力我認為給予所有在第一線奮鬥的醫事人員一個基本保障事實上是一定要做的事情我也在上週新增了提案擴大了對於醫療暴力人員保障的適用範圍讓緊急醫療人員也可以被納入"},{"start":8279.23,"end":8290.324,"text":"可是部長除了醫療暴力之外我更在乎的是醫療壓力上週有前市長前急診科醫師在非開放時間前往護理站詢問病情醫師我要先強調並不是不能關心病情但不管是誰都應該遵守相關規範更何況"},{"start":8297.812,"end":8321.95,"text":"這個人是醫生是前市長讓所有的人都會有很有壓力的要來配合你那我認為對醫事人員的負擔非常的大院方也坦白的說他說話的方式是電視上常見的典型的科室語法即使沒有什麼惡意聽起來也很有壓力類似這樣的感受這就是赤裸裸的第一線的醫護人員感受到的壓力跟緊繃所以部長當有影響力"},{"start":8324.031,"end":8345.683,"text":"或者是社會知名度的人進入到醫療的一個場域即便是在關心病情的前提下仍然可能讓現場的人產生不對等的溝通的一個壓力在甚至影響到醫療場域當中應有的中立跟我們的常態運作這是不是也應該要納入醫療法來做討論強化對於醫事人員權益的保障"},{"start":8347.617,"end":8366.105,"text":"這個其實我對這個事情做評論我也很有壓力我也很怕他又要丟我病歷但是我認為應該要講這個醫院裡面有一定的規範特別是夜間我們的人力就是比較低的時候"},{"start":8366.525,"end":8393.88,"text":"那病人也要休息護理的人力也是比較少所以盡可能的很多的病情解釋或者是探視盡量在白天不要去干擾到醫療業務的進行這個其實相對的也是可以讓護理人員或者我們的醫護人員多一些時間來照顧病人所以我想這幾年我們一直在希望"},{"start":8396.781,"end":8413.006,"text":"為第一線的人員減壓但是也希望民眾能夠配合所以這個行為我們說這個是一個不好的示範所以我說我們當然就不允許有醫療壓力更何況我們更不能允許醫療暴力常態化可是根據統計醫療暴力案件數從110"},{"start":8416.067,"end":8418.188,"text":"面對醫療暴力持續攀升衛福部目前的整體對策是什麼"},{"start":8437.629,"end":8455.337,"text":"我想這個我們當然幾個部分透過這個修法師意圖那麼過去因為沒有這個最低的這個刑事責任的限制所以呢造成很多最後都用一顆罰金達不到那個渴止的效果"},{"start":8455.837,"end":8479.847,"text":"對這一次幾位委員提出的版本去訂定這個刑事責任的這個下限就是最低門檻那麼這個有助於產生這個嚇子的作用當然第二個我們也會去強化這個警民之間的合作如何的及時通報這個請求這個警方的協助當然也要強化這個醫院內部"},{"start":8481.067,"end":8509.497,"text":"自行的應變能力 當然這個包含如何處理這個比較會有產生這個暴力行為的像這個酗酒 藥酒飲的患者那麼這些人是比較會有暴力行為如何防範這些應該要融入在我們的教育訓練裡頭醫院內部的因應的機制這些人都應該要要同步的進行我要提醒的是因為如果市長立法院不斷拉高我們的刑責的一個天花板"},{"start":8510.317,"end":8527.805,"text":"可法院卻停留在地板的一個落差因為單純的加重醫療暴力刑責招就已經沒有嚇阻的效果在避免衝突發生還是要前端預防我相信你應該非常了解像就舉例台大醫院的雲林分院的白色小組的機制違例這個小組從行政總值"},{"start":8531.586,"end":8554.678,"text":"值班阿長跟保全來做組成只要醫事人員發現到有狀況的時候馬上透過電腦系統或撥打專線那同時就用一個術語叫白色一號那三分鐘內白色小組就會到場來進入協調那相對醫事人員也會感受到是有人來協助他們的話那這個機制運作效果良好可是白色小組實施後"},{"start":8555.959,"end":8581.208,"text":"隔年那個醫療暴力呢降為零件我認為這事實上是值得借鏡的模式可是我要問那目前有沒有想要去參考這樣的模式來做推行我想這個醫院內部一定要建立這樣的應變流程這個是應該要有所以我們會來研議把它放到評鑑裡頭這個也是對病人還有對所有的從業人員的一個安全維護這個是醫院應該要有的這個做法"},{"start":8585.229,"end":8611.843,"text":"至於怎麼樣做得更好可以透過一些互相的標竿學習來去落實我想這個我們可以來推動接著我要問的是這近這幾年衛福部一直努力的育立醫療那它不只事實上是一個醫療上的選擇更是尊重個人的自主權跟尊嚴同時也緊急家長在臨床的時候要去做決策的壓力跟衝突目前的整個的成效 政策成效是什麼"},{"start":8612.703,"end":8627.411,"text":"跟委員說你們分兩階段第一階段是從113年7月我們先開放了部分條件住院的時候健保去給ACP簽這個預定醫療決定這個實施了一段時間到113年7月到114年4月這當中真正申報的才190個所以量非常的少"},{"start":8638.436,"end":8662.371,"text":"所以我們就在檢討之後呢從114年5月開始我們就擴大這個適用這個健保可以給付的這個ACP的條件65歲以上只要有重大傷病的我們就可以給付在門診就可以做那另外呢如果有加一計畫或者是這個這個多重慢性病65歲以上的也可以做"},{"start":8663.211,"end":8687.333,"text":"那到目前為止大概差不多近兩千個啦所以叫前一波的那個政策當然已經大幅提升了不過呢還是有很大的努力空間因為我們預估這樣的這個族群大概是超過一百萬人才對所以我們會在在幾個方向來努力第一個就是這個之前也有委員提案要修這個病毒法"},{"start":8688.214,"end":8703.573,"text":"去擴大這個放這個擴大這個可以做ACP的一些機構可以讓更多的因為我們現在都一定要醫療機構才能做嘛所以這個醫療機構能做大概400多家這個這個可進性比較低啦"},{"start":8704.313,"end":8721.807,"text":"而且醫護人員其實也很忙的所以如何去擴大讓大家更多的參與進來包含診所 包含其他的醫師機構或者是專業的團體來推動那也許可以讓這個更普及一點這個我們可以來檢討努力"},{"start":8723.449,"end":8737.145,"text":"對 我覺得是不是根本問題就是民眾不太理解也不願意談死亡所以我覺得可不可以比照像英國的方式就是說我們在推動預例醫療的時候並不是把重點放在宣傳而是直接放進到醫療體系裡面去運作"},{"start":8739.668,"end":8758.454,"text":"在國民健康服務的體系當中育育醫療是由醫療人員主動在適當時機去啟動例如在慢性疾病追蹤高齡照護或健康狀況惡化的過程當中因為家醫事實上是他比較常互動他也是比較信任的人有我們的這樣的照護團隊直接去跟家人跟病人開啟對話的討論"},{"start":8760.334,"end":8785.001,"text":"而不是又要拉出來去宣傳我覺得這樣的效果所以部長可不可以朝這個方向來前進其實跟委員說明這個目前大家醫計畫啦居診計畫啦長照啦跟住院整個都已經可以用ACP這個已經納入了只是說可能在落實度或者是推動上還要一點時間因為要準備好嘛所以這個其實我們已經納入這四個計畫都已經納入可以執行ACP對"},{"start":8788.642,"end":8805.545,"text":"最後一個就是今年我在質詢醫院質詢的時候就希望每一個身障朋友能爭取到醫院設置身障婦產科特別門診讓他們就醫的時候就能夠真正實現平權後來你們回文也是說這個月底公告辦法的修訂"},{"start":8806.346,"end":8820.362,"text":"部長今天29號可是遲到現在我們都還沒有看到任何我覺得部長辦法定好了嗎什麼時候公告如果還沒有辦法公告明天你可以公告嗎你本來講4月底今天5月初一定會預告"},{"start":8821.203,"end":8843.882,"text":"你的五月初會出到什麼時候出我也不太確定我就不知道到底困難是什麼因為大家等著這個要使用這個資源可是都沒有辦法所以無論如何我覺得提供身障夥伴一個具有可靜性的醫療環境的話是我們必須努力的目標所以部長在這邊你剛承諾五月初兩個禮拜內我們預告"},{"start":8846.335,"end":8861.508,"text":"這個就不是五月初了就不是五月初兩個禮拜不是五月初那已經進入到五月中了所以下週是不是可以公開下個禮拜我們努力啦因為條文出來還要會這個法規單位啊等等這樣最晚兩週內兩週內好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林院前召委的質詢現在請楊耀委員質詢"},{"start":8877.538,"end":8897.5,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請下市部長有請市部長兩位也好部長好 部長我們還是先討論一下護理師的人力問題就是我先這樣子講就是"},{"start":8901.231,"end":8926.182,"text":"經過衛福部的努力呢去年的護理人力比今年的護理人力比去年增加了大概職業的人數增加4000多人3月份的話是照去年大概增加4900位對 這個要給你們一個大大的鼓勵啦因為這某一個角度來看就是"},{"start":8928.717,"end":8941.068,"text":"待遇提高然後可能工作環境也改善這個是需要需要花很大的心力的去達成的事情跟你們跟你們"},{"start":8942.659,"end":8959.951,"text":"致謝 可是還是有一些問題我們必須要去解決第一個就是說三班互併筆的獎勵我們現在有聽到基層實際領到的獎金過少我想要請教一下對於三班互併筆的獎勵的運用你們有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":8972.999,"end":8990.146,"text":"跟委員說我們大概一年發放的這個三班互併比的獎勵金大概在16、7億左右啦一年大概16、7億再發那但是發的方式他是根據你的這個住院天數去乘以一個百分比啦"},{"start":8990.706,"end":9014.419,"text":"那但是因為我特別去看了這些說拿到很少的到底發生什麼問題就是因為醫院規模很少都10床以下他收的病人又很少所以分下去的那個一樣的百分比2% 3%就非常非常少主要是在這個問題所以我們今年會去調整像這種其實他的這個住院量很低的其實他也沒有什麼"},{"start":9015.575,"end":9041.143,"text":"很大的loading那其實可以不免所以我們把資源放在loading比較重的就是部長大概知道問題在哪裡那也有解決的方向那我們總是希望一個政策到落實必須要讓我們政策目標的對象有感"},{"start":9045.099,"end":9063.845,"text":"政府長期在推動健康台灣生根計畫可是有很多公立醫院的公職護理師因為公務人員身份所以在現行的制度下有很多獎勵金其實他是沒有辦法領的然後公職護理師55歲就可以辦理退休"},{"start":9068.658,"end":9093.195,"text":"所以會有很多原本在公家醫院像譬如說離島偏鄉可能多數都是公立醫院比較多那他們可能會選擇在55歲先退休然後再轉去其他的私人醫院請教一下部長就是說我們有沒有辦法有什麼制度可以"},{"start":9093.815,"end":9119.482,"text":"因為這些人都是對於職場熟悉然後經驗豐富的資深護理師嘛我們有沒有什麼制度或構想可以去留住他們好 跟委員說我們公立醫院裡面大概有兩類的人員一種是具公職身份一種是約聘顧這樣那公職身份他的薪資的"},{"start":9121.504,"end":9135.7,"text":"這個結構是比較受限就是按照它的縫點等升級這個來擠那麼如果是月聘僱的話它的薪資就比較彈性那所以像我們有一些這個補助款下去的時候那麼"},{"start":9136.881,"end":9160.598,"text":"對於這些公職身份者是沒有辦法直接用加薪的方式現在大家都在加薪加薪這個在一般約聘那個是OK但是這個公職身份的是不是隨便加薪我們是隨著各所有的公務人員每年加薪幾%就是幾%不是因為你醫院有盈餘就可以加他的薪但是呢他是可以用績效獎勵金的方式下去"},{"start":9161.338,"end":9185.686,"text":"但是因為績效獎勵金的發放呢各個體系的規定又不一樣有不利醫院的分配方式那麼退府醫院有退府醫院的分配方式軍方醫院也有軍方所以這個可能要回到各主管機關我們去溝通希望他能夠給這些第一線的人員那麼有相對應的應該的回饋至於說那個退休規定"},{"start":9187.006,"end":9213.481,"text":"那個是過去因為有這個所謂的危老危老它就會有55歲它就可以提早這個我們一般的那個退休年齡是要60歲以後才可以自願退休所以55歲它就可以自願退休60歲就是強制退休這個是危老那目前在醫院裡面的危老大概就是理護理人員不擔任這個主管的這一類的事為主"},{"start":9214.321,"end":9235.514,"text":"是不是要把他延後我們要研究看看因為說實在話現況就是如果他到了這個可以退休的時候他經常都是如果他有意願繼續從事護理工作他可能退休之後是到私人醫院去那並不是真的流失在我們整個護理職場我聽部長這樣子講就是提一個建議就是當然"},{"start":9241.577,"end":9266.366,"text":"國家的公務體系的薪資制度是比較石板的那涉及醫療專業有沒有辦法有一個比較有彈性的這個是不是我們應該跟人事總署跟全序部來做個溝通是 這個委員的建議很好因為我們另外還有一些是加急的部分"},{"start":9266.846,"end":9289.205,"text":"加擠就可以按照各類人員的不同像法治人員有法治加擠那麼我們在公務機關的衛福部這邊有衛生加擠所以讓在醫院裡面不同的這個工作的性質的人是不是也有不同的加擠這個我們來研究跟因為確實有需求啦因為我們一方面"},{"start":9290.266,"end":9297.659,"text":"因為時間的關係所以我看剛剛部長也已經有限制了就是三班互併比入法的問題除了"},{"start":9302.21,"end":9319.412,"text":"施政呢必須要顧及各方的權益三班護病比入法當然讓醫護人員有一個更妥適的工作環境那其實也在保障病患可是呢人力假如不足"},{"start":9320.893,"end":9341.463,"text":"又遇到台灣高齡化的速度那麼快病患一定會增加嘛所以這個怎麼去權衡這個確實是需要一點時間啦我看部長好像已經有先是先不入法啦先從你們的行政規則當中來做討論這個也好啦就是事完則圓嘛不過還是必須要一步一步走"},{"start":9349.927,"end":9359.935,"text":"我最後講一個因為事情的關係我最後問一個問題就是不衛福部衛福部在去年六月大概有"},{"start":9362.19,"end":9386.347,"text":"是不是媒體報導的說衛福部將攜手財政部研議修改醫院醫師所得稅制不論公司利益醫院的醫師加班費免稅這個有沒有有在進行那我對這個有一點提醒跟部長做個建議"},{"start":9387.868,"end":9399.637,"text":"就是說複稅公平組原則這個是基於憲法的平等原則來的啦也就是說按照經濟的負擔能力來負擔一定的稅捐啦"},{"start":9407.455,"end":9421.006,"text":"我了解衛福部理解衛福部希望能夠讓醫護人員的整體收入增加的苦心可是我要提醒你們就是從減稅"},{"start":9425.323,"end":9437.272,"text":"有幾個第一個就是違反了剛才的的賦稅公平原則第二個第二個可能大家也會覺得說為什麼為什麼只有醫師"},{"start":9439.221,"end":9464.969,"text":"免稅啦我跟委員說明我完全同意要付稅公平正義那正是因為如此我們才推動這個這個方案為什麼呢因為按照所得稅法14條加班費是免稅的那所以勞基法的適用人員他一個月都有46個小時的加班是免稅他的加班費是免稅但是因為醫師沒有納入勞基法的關係所以他就完全沒有適用這個"},{"start":9465.749,"end":9492.991,"text":"所以他的加班的所得也都完全課稅所以這個反而是付稅的不公平這個部長做這個說明就很好因為我在看質詢資料的時候我也就覺得加班費免稅看起來就覺得怪怪的這個是所得稅法14條裡面就有它本身不是用勞基法所以反而沒有那個加班費免稅的適用"},{"start":9494.692,"end":9509.15,"text":"這樣反而是不公平我們只是讓他回到公平那我知道就加班費的部分對加班費而已不是什麼減稅是加班費因為我還是覺得改善改善"},{"start":9510.629,"end":9531.529,"text":"工作條件的方式很多提高收入的面向也很多總是必須要在憲法的平等原則底下來來做部長剛剛的說明就算我們一定會按照委員的提醒本席受教了"},{"start":9532.15,"end":9536.392,"text":"因為勞工確實是加班費是免稅的謝謝部長 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝謝謝楊耀委員的諮詢 現在請王月明委員諮詢謝謝主席 有請石部長有請石崇良部長"},{"start":9564.663,"end":9583.328,"text":"今天最新的新聞你對外講說三班互併筆要入法那大家都知道在總統大選的時候賴清德總統他有一項政見就是兩年內三班互併筆要入法那算著時間呢這個2024年520就任今年2026"},{"start":9589.67,"end":9611.12,"text":"即將這個要520快到了所以是不是總統有打電話給你有提醒你請你務必這件事情要幫他兌現政見其實我們很多的衛福部的相關的政策我都是會跟總統報告都有的一項很多的議題我都會跟總統報告"},{"start":9616.462,"end":9634.541,"text":"所以我想這個是總統很關心他的政見有沒有兌現你才加快腳步可能有這樣的一個發布因為大家都知道在今年1月的時候在立法院有針對三班護病筆要入法這件事情的法案就是有召開"},{"start":9635.647,"end":9659.015,"text":"政黨的協商那當時衛福部的次長林靜儀次長他也沒有表態積極入法他沒有表態他還提到很多問題就是說偏鄉地區其實有很多可能是答不到的這個問題還是有對所以當場的那個會議並沒有凸顯一個衛福部的態度是積極支持的"},{"start":9659.568,"end":9674.576,"text":"但是短短的這個幾個月突然加快速度我想這應該是賴清德總統的指示奏效那我們都是有步驟啦其實他要有些配套才有辦法短短的這三個月內"},{"start":9675.797,"end":9705.318,"text":"就是一月份大家可以去翻那個公報記錄他並沒有說我們現在衛福部我們會入法而且呢很肯定的說我們是要在醫療機構設置標準裡面去入法他沒有他完全隻字未提啦然後突然你們就有一個這個但是我很好奇現在你們是要在醫療機構設置標準裡面而不是醫療法這跟外界的期待坦白講是有落差的"},{"start":9706.318,"end":9727.248,"text":"應該跟這樣說 我們目前在護病比已經有入法在醫療機構設置標準裡面入法在醫療機構設置標準第12條有訂全日護病比所以比較適當的方式是應該是同樣的這個條文來做調整讓它從全日的護病比變成三班護病比"},{"start":9727.808,"end":9753.117,"text":"來修訂這個是我們覺得這樣才有一個彈性因為這裡面有很多的細節規定需要去做那麼在醫療法的母法裡面很難有這樣的這個細緻上動就要來因為這都是會調整的這個人力的狀況是浮動的還有各種的條件也不一樣偏鄉的條件或者是各種病房的樣態可能也會不同"},{"start":9753.377,"end":9779.243,"text":"當然但是這會有一個差異就是你今天如果是設定在你這個機構醫療機構設置標準裡面請問你會有相對應的法則嗎有醫療機構設置標準是那你未來這個也要設法則嗎不是在母法醫療法裡面就有對應授權法規也有法則啊對是有的但我是在問你說如果沒有達到三班互併比未來你的政策是用鼓勵獎勵"},{"start":9781.924,"end":9800.125,"text":"來取代懲罰 還是你棒子胡蘿蔔都有 就是加速可以達到這個護理界的期待達到三班護病比我們現在先是以這個獎勵嘛我們現在有三班護病比獎勵 夜班津貼等等還有這個護理費的調升等等現在都是朝獎勵的方式 然後慢慢進入輔導期"},{"start":9801.326,"end":9809.349,"text":"然後最後才正式實施所以你的這個修法事實上你還蠻延長的你那個整個上路的時間如果報載是確實的話你118年才有上路其實你的緩衝期還蠻長的那我要問你的是說你在這樣的方向性上如果是118年上路你這個上路的版本你將來是會搭配法則的嗎還是不會"},{"start":9825.354,"end":9847.877,"text":"會有罰則的啊 因為這個醫療法本來裡面就有罰則所以當然還是會有罰則 但是你就是給足了緩衝期對 需要有緩衝 對 要讓這個人力能夠到位不然的話呢 如果強行的入法 然後搭配很高的罰則就會造成穿床了解 那我問你 那這樣賴總統的政見是不是有跳票不會啊 我們就是按照 兩年內入法 但沒有啊"},{"start":9849.522,"end":9871.391,"text":"也沒有上路 我有細讀啦 當時他是說在任內讓他配套兩年內那個是入法 但是入法到配套還要再完成所以我的解讀啦 你覺得沒有跳票就對了因為你已經使命必達幫他開了一個會 然後找到一個解套的方式"},{"start":9872.531,"end":9899.318,"text":"我們開了好幾場會議一直在討論好啦我只是覺得那你跟你的次長沒有講好啊次長1月才來立法院啊當然是要求要入法啊他還不肯啊結果現在馬上就520快到了就有這樣的我還是樂見其成啦只是我說不要只是因為總統有沒有在意這個立法的進度就可以差這麼多啦我要提醒的是這個我們一定要是有規劃負責任的讓他不要衝擊的"},{"start":9900.638,"end":9928.098,"text":"就是不要讓我們感覺差這麼多我知道我知道市長在1月份還不肯答應然後突然4月份一直在研議當中一直到研議水到渠成好那另外一個我要問的是現在冒名偽藥詐騙的這個問題連這個北榮的院長陳維銘院長他都屢次遭到他的影像被冒用然後呢這個賣藥他其實已經非常生氣了我看到媒體的報導他說這是謀財害命"},{"start":9930.379,"end":9944.508,"text":"那這個我覺得衛福部應該要正視這樣的一個現象這一些人我覺得很可惡第一個他是冒用別人的名義嘛第二個就是他的藥品本身可能沒有那樣的效果或甚至他們跟你申請藥證他是不是偽藥然後這樣子去騙取民眾的金錢我覺得這個是很不可取的那我覺得現在政府的這個"},{"start":9955.395,"end":9976.539,"text":"去懲治的手段還不夠雷厲風行那我不知道衛福部你們作為是藥事主管機關而且醫院也是你們的就是服務的病人的單位那連院長都遭到這樣子的一個影像就是被冒用然後用他假的人頭去賣這個尾藥這個傷害其實蠻大的那你們現在有什麼比較霹靂手段"},{"start":9982.26,"end":10001.012,"text":"跟委員說明當然我們依法都是會交查但是就是考量到因為交查的速度太久他會掛在那裡太久所以我們才跟速發部合作所以直接讓他去下架速發部就出手去下架你們現在可以達到立即無法接軌下架嗎譬如說北榮院長跟你"},{"start":10002.032,"end":10010.583,"text":"講了之後我們立刻通知速發部然後它立刻就下架對就是它快的速度可以多快一天內一天內 對然後不只這樣我們還會用一些Keyword或者方式用AI巡查在網路上巡查"},{"start":10017.651,"end":10034.628,"text":"你們現在有在尋找嗎我們現在已經今年就已經下架4萬多件因為這個你給他下架他用另外一個IP又上來所以很討厭現在這個實在是很討厭所以我們到目前已經下架跟速發部合作已經下架4萬多件一年嗎"},{"start":10035.709,"end":10060.478,"text":"今年到目前為止短短的4個月已經4萬件了那這真的是太猖狂了很猖狂啊所以我們才會嚴厲現在我們在嚴厲要修那個那個這個鑰匙法鑰匙法也要修希望說去強化這個電商的管理的他的責任平台的責任你今天要上架在你這邊廣告你要確定這個是真還是假的"},{"start":10061.639,"end":10076.195,"text":"連這種被冒名的你還讓他在這個平台上面這個我覺得影響是蠻大的我希望你們要好好的去處理因為如果連一個北榮的院長這麼資深的院長都透過媒體求救他覺得真的被騷擾到非常的生氣那這個我覺得你們要好好的嚴正一待去處理"},{"start":10082.062,"end":10106.822,"text":"最後一個我要問的就是我們現在醫療暴力的這個通報案件增加另外一個我看到的是他的這個成案率就變成司法成案率市場是在下降的你看112年他的這個成案率移送司法有136件那為什麼113年他整個通報案件增加但是成案率呢送到司法的是"},{"start":10107.102,"end":10119.221,"text":"大幅的減少這個原因是什麼是醫護人員不想告了還是你有多了一些什麼機制還是對醫護人員來講這個成本太高還要出庭所以就是"},{"start":10120.536,"end":10146.707,"text":"不想出庭 原因是什麼 你們有沒有去分析這個 其實去年1月跟12月我們律師司都會跟高檢署召開這個討論檢討會議你沒有看到這個現象嗎那確實 但是這個法務部嗎不曾暗示法務部的問題是不是檢察官看一看就說不起訴檢察官沒有移送這樣來 這個法務部上來講一下 王燦是嗎"},{"start":10150.912,"end":10171.315,"text":"來 望山寺請上來 你有看到這樣的現象嗎因為這樣子對醫療人員來講 會覺得很心寒就是已經通報了 結果是沒有被處理就是司法根本覺得這個哪有什麼就是沒有成案 這樣的現象法務部有看見嗎"},{"start":10174.571,"end":10199.669,"text":"因為如果是這個樣子的話 我們法再怎麼修也沒有用啊因為連起訴都不起訴 連成案都不成案那我們再怎麼修有什麼用問題出在哪裡因為我們是被動受理 在醫療糾紛的案件上如果有案件上來 我們其實一定是會受理但是受理的話 我們是要需要有醫療鑑定的有醫療糾紛這種狀況 我們是要受會服務醫療暴力"},{"start":10204.554,"end":10210.621,"text":"那那個檢察司的主任檢察官比較瞭解這狀況我請他來跟我來檢察官說為什麼"},{"start":10213.544,"end":10234.074,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為就實務檢察官的運作來講的話基本上有關醫療暴力案件必須要有移送之後檢察官才會進一步去做一個受理那檢察官針對這樣的一個案件如果有確實有移送或者是說有人提告的話那我們都會依法分案依法就證據的部分去做一個偵辦"},{"start":10235.572,"end":10261.913,"text":"好我已經看到客觀的這個數據所以我要求這個衛福部跟法務部你們這個要去開會檢討這樣的一個現象如果是法務部這邊檢察官對於這一類的案件的敏感度其實低然後導致這個成案率低那這個要檢討如果是醫院方覺得移送的這個成本高醫護人員因為你們給他工價然後他要花時間然後他要出庭然後想說就算了"},{"start":10262.774,"end":10273.065,"text":"那這個是衛福部你們要檢討所以我要求這個現象是我看到的現象我希望這個衛福部跟法務部你們是不是一個月之內召開這樣的會議把檢討的這個可以嗎"},{"start":10278.462,"end":10305.697,"text":"要兩個月是不是好兩個月之內就是開完這個檢討會議然後應該要怎麼改善然後把這個改善的方法送到未還委員會來好不好因為我們今天討論這個醫療暴力的問題我們不希望這些醫護人員遭受到威脅更希望如果有人是去傷害這些醫護人員的在司法上面我們還給醫護人員一個公道那這樣我們的修法其實才有意義好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10307.513,"end":10332.002,"text":"謝謝王玉銘委員的諮詢接下來我們請盧憲一委員諮詢主任檢察官來主任檢察官是陳肇事主任檢察官請"},{"start":10339.99,"end":10369.002,"text":"委員好讓部長休息一下這就是因為剛才我們王立民有針對我們醫療暴力的事情來延續他的問題因為我一直覺得要怎麼檢討這個事情因為其實要產生嚇阻的力量要怎麼產生嚇阻的力量我覺得因為我們部長跟醫療師醫生已經都待過急診室那急診室那一個忙碌的氛圍裡面甚至我看到你們法務部的報告裡面還說如果就一般的"},{"start":10369.622,"end":10397.101,"text":"可能是掛號人員還是其他的可能他的那個所謂的比例原則他們也不受這個所謂的罪責相當性也就是說整個醫療環境那麼一樣的高漲的狀況之下如果有一個人呃呈現那暴力的行為的時候怎麼樣產生嚇阻的我覺得覺得應該要思考這個問題我們首先回想一下呃之前有個明星廣默良子在呃東京他呃對醫護人員吼呃就是類似產生他的暴力行為嗎"},{"start":10398.121,"end":10426.567,"text":"結果其實到最後最後的一個結果是他沒有被起訴不過當下他做了什麼處置呢日本的警方關了他八天那我是覺得我們是不是應該要有一個相對應的一個機制是說當你當下發生這樣一個暴力行為對醫護人員的時候是不是先強行的做一個適當的措施讓很多人去醫院的時候你不能隨便的咆哮啊去攻打醫護人員應該是有一個嚇阻的作用在前面"},{"start":10427.407,"end":10448.482,"text":"至於他因為他是因為生病的關係因為他酒醉的關係還是怎麼樣後來不起訴我是覺得那個是後面的可是當下你要怎麼去把這個情況控制我覺得那是應該是我們要去無論是法務部這邊或者是我們衛福部這邊都共同商討的議題是不是"},{"start":10450.884,"end":10467.53,"text":"就是感謝那個委員對這個議題的關心我想以執法機關的一個這樣的角度來說確實是有應該說應該有責任說一起去共同維護防止這樣的一個現象那也跟委員報告因為"},{"start":10468.37,"end":10495.492,"text":"檢察官在這邊的話針對案件來說他是屬於一個執法的一個角色所以必須要針對確實有符合案件應該說行為有符合構成要件涉及到違法的話檢察官在這邊才會有比較大的一個著力點那當然在積極面而言各地方的檢察機關也會與警政單位去做一個密切的一個合作那盡快的去因應這樣的一個暴力行為的處理"},{"start":10498.168,"end":10524.98,"text":"針對第24條跟106條防務的建議就是說文字上有法體性的問題要分析可以接受技術性的修正比如說違反第二線規定警察機關接後通報後應急派員排除或制止然後我是覺得這些所謂現行犯這些當然都是屬於比較陌生的字眼我想說應該是先支持警察在醫療暴力現場立即排除危害這樣的一個修法的一個"},{"start":10526.3,"end":10551.013,"text":"刑決條件讓這些事情可以在那個當下之下就可以被控制住你支持這樣的一個說法的一個未來的方向嗎針對說那個徵定警察機關街道通報街道通報應急派員赴現場這個部分那這邊是尊重委員的一個職權的處理OK好那就謝謝那麼請部長好請部長"},{"start":10557.645,"end":10582.813,"text":"路演好對 剛才大家都提到了三方貨幣比這個今天公布的這個新聞可是我們之前接收到的一個訊息就是當然我們護理事公會對這個非常的要求可是還有一個是他們的待遇的問題剛才你都提到了可能一些醫院的一些層級或者說它的規模或者是它的收益可能沒有辦法去支撐它的所謂的"},{"start":10584.554,"end":10610.041,"text":"立即性的一個所謂的income可是我一直覺得是不是衛福部有一個公益算或者說特別的一個獎勵措施去留任或者說去補助這些偏鄉或者是比較醫療缺乏的地區因為他們總覺得說他們的待遇跟都會或者是說他們的所要花的這些三班的成本確實是比都會區還要大很多所以"},{"start":10610.541,"end":10633.316,"text":"我覺得在偏向這個護理人員的待遇我覺得你應該實際的去看他們在這個獎勵錯失之後呢他們實際增加的這些福利到底是有多少好 當然這個跟委員說明我們現在的這個目前直接挹注給這個護理人員的大概是兩個一個是這個"},{"start":10635.177,"end":10657.911,"text":"夜班津貼夜班津貼是不論層級不論在哪個區域大概都一樣那第二個是三班互併比獎勵那三班互併比獎勵它就會有這個偏遠地區比較高的比例不過是不是足夠這個我們會來研究也許未來我們如果要更積極的推動的時候我們再來爭取"},{"start":10659.232,"end":10682.168,"text":"給偏鄉的醫院能夠有更多的因素還是希望給我實際的數字偏鄉地區跟地匯區的差距我這邊有提到第49條跟第50條的放寬醫療社團法人這個醫療法規我們在辦公室也討論過那我還是要希望說當然得到的答案很清楚很擔心中資那到底這個中資的部分我們要怎麼去"},{"start":10684.17,"end":10693,"text":"怎麼講看手是金流還是控制權不透明我是不是覺得是不是要事前審查或者實質受一點這個揭露是不是有這方面的一個事前的規範"},{"start":10695.073,"end":10714.934,"text":"跟委員說明當然剛剛這個劉建國委員質詢的時候我也提到那麼如何在這個鬆綁這個醫療社團法人的社員條件就是讓法人可以這個成為這個醫療社團法人的社員的同時那強化能夠維持他的公益本質"},{"start":10716.195,"end":10738.619,"text":"那所以在這個如果是要法人這個成為這個醫療社團法人的社員的時候可能要採事前審查跟自然人的方式會不一樣那我們會去審查他這個法人公司他的財務的健全性啊還有他的資金來源啊等等這些的條件來看資金來源的審查這是不是經濟部這邊可以幫忙我們會請這個經濟部來協助"},{"start":10743.92,"end":10767.979,"text":"那我常常听到就是在我们部落的一些合作的医院其实都是来自社团法人所以其实他们在偏乡的一个付出我觉得他们已经超出我们所谓的财团法人我们在部落我们有五台乡马家乡这些比较偏乡从来没有看过常跟来帮忙可是来帮忙都是我们刚才讲的安泰医院保健医院这些社团法人医院"},{"start":10768.399,"end":10788.821,"text":"所以其實他們在偏鄉的付出我相信大家是有目共睹所以我希望這個所謂我們把法人能夠變成他們的社員的時候可以增進我們一些企業的挹注讓我們偏鄉的醫療能夠更進步我覺得可以幫忙衛福部的一些缺口我覺得這是大家導入一些社會的資本來協助共同努力的方向"},{"start":10789.542,"end":10808.647,"text":"那個也是因為剛好近年這個ESG的精神很普及所以如果有一些企業願意投入到這個我們的醫療事業其實我們也是歡迎的好謝謝那最後就是至於掛號費的問題我想說想知道我們部長的那個態度"},{"start":10810.12,"end":10822.592,"text":"因為有6萬名的基層醫師說應該不要設置上限應該不要針對過後費這個部分有多少一些規範是不是應該採取自由的競爭的模式你覺得呢"},{"start":10825.972,"end":10847.944,"text":"這樣我們會當然在掛號費我們過去是把它定位在它是一個行政費用不是醫療費用所以依法它不一定是要經過衛生局的核准就可以收取但是畢竟我們這個是整個是健保的體系所以健保的體系必須考用到這個病人的"},{"start":10848.524,"end":10876.469,"text":"就醫的障礙我們開辦健保的目的就是要去除掉就醫的經濟障礙那麼因此也不應該有太過高的掛號費如果這是完全自費的機構我沒有意見但是只要是健保的特約機構它的任何的收費其實都需要被考量才不會造成另外一層的就醫障礙而喪失了我們健保開辦的本意OK 好"},{"start":10877.569,"end":10877.649,"text":"現在請陳委員質詢"},{"start":10907.452,"end":10932.332,"text":"我們今天討論醫療法修正草案那有一個提案呢他非常的重要就是針對這個受雇一時的勞動權益要在醫療法裡面增訂保障專章首先我要請教一下醫療法的立法精神是什麼"},{"start":10934.7,"end":10948.112,"text":"醫療法的立法精神就是為了要達成到我們這個整個這個國民的健康那提供的醫療服務那麼整個體系的這個資源跟品質要能夠維護"},{"start":10950.538,"end":10978.653,"text":"好我大概來我今天來宣讀一下就是這個為促進醫療事業健全發展合理分布醫療資源提高醫療品質保障病人權益增進國民健康特制定本法這裡面呢好像沒有談到以保障醫師的權益為目的如果沒有或者可能不符合立法精神的法條那定定在這個醫療法裡面會不會怪怪的"},{"start":10980.713,"end":11005.238,"text":"其實在這個醫療品質或者是整個這個醫療制度的健全來講那麼人員的這個維護就是我們如果到講整個醫療體系主要是這個人力然後跟輸送體系delivery system跟這個manpower這個都是在在所謂的醫療資源裡面"},{"start":11007.978,"end":11032.204,"text":"所以每個法有每個法的重點那我又再看了一下這個案由就是有提到這個受僱醫師因為沒有受到勞動權益的保障那會產生醫界職場爭端恐危及國人醫療品質這個理由我想在這邊可能需要釐清一下請問部長說以前有沒有因為"},{"start":11033.965,"end":11048.294,"text":"這個醫界職場爭端而危及病人權益的案例有嗎在你印象裡面有這樣嗎我的印象裡面比較沒有這樣的因為大家都很有醫德啊"},{"start":11050.433,"end":11065.744,"text":"來我們繼續討論下去我所認識的醫師截至目前為止我認識的醫師都很好他沒有不會不顧醫學倫理而忘了這個醫師的誓詞那如果說僅因為醫療法沒有勞動權益專章"},{"start":11070.507,"end":11085.238,"text":"然後所以就可能會危及這個國人的醫療品質部長您自己也是醫師嘛那又是醫界最高首長你說你們醫師會這樣嗎這樣的理由會不會太沉重了一點"},{"start":11088.112,"end":11096.421,"text":"我們的醫師當然在畢業的時候都會有這個醫師誓詞來承諾對於我們這個行業我們所從醫的最重要的精神"},{"start":11105.56,"end":11128.205,"text":"那麼但是確實在目前的這個體系發展之後這多年發展之後那麼過去的醫師多數是像早些年都叫做自由業嘛他為他自己的所有的行為來負責任可是越來越多的醫師是屬於受僱啦"},{"start":11129.486,"end":11142.079,"text":"所以才會引發說受雇的醫師的權益誰來替他這個保障所以我想在法規的部分我們應該要也要重視只是說在這個"},{"start":11144.561,"end":11161.127,"text":"法律上我們要把它放在哪裡的問題嘛那我相信部長您是文官出身而且有足夠的法學素養如果一部法律呢同時出現了其他法律的這個強制適用的話會不會這看起來"},{"start":11162.727,"end":11182.567,"text":"應該也是怪怪的因為我不知道部長你有沒有看過說一個A法律然後裡面訂定了但是訂定的是要遵守B、C、D法律的條文應該不太有這樣的案例那我們再看一下醫療法第一條確實剛剛委員提的這幾個"},{"start":11187.852,"end":11208.749,"text":"除非我們有例外規定不然重啟規定所以像這個就業保險法的他就業保險條例的規範那麼勞保條例有勞保條例的規範實災也有其實現在就是可以適用現在就適用了所以不需要修醫療法也已經適用因為你看一下在醫療法第一條"},{"start":11209.89,"end":11226.272,"text":"我們也是有寫這個本法未規定者適用其他法律的規定嘛這樣已經其實就是有這樣的明定那我舉這次的例子新增的這個24條之一要求要符合這個勞工保險條例的人員全部都要參加勞工保險"},{"start":11227.714,"end":11255.897,"text":"那要不要參加勞工保險不是應該就要在這個勞工保險條例裡面訂定嗎你剛剛部長自己有講啊那特別是這個勞保條例第六條就是明訂參加勞保的行業別跟身份別那同樣的道理就業保險法 災保法那全民健康保險法這些勞動部主管的法令通通寫在這個醫療法的條文裡面符合法律的原則嗎這看起來是很奇怪的啊"},{"start":11256.417,"end":11284.9,"text":"所以這些法都有訂定可以參加的這些行業的這個條文所以我們進一步來看的話如果醫療法訂了那其他的像專業的這個律師事務所的律師還有這個會計事務所的會計師他們要不要也要修訂他們的律師法還有這個會計師法的條文呢如果按照這樣的邏輯來看那我們每一個師每一個通通都要修一下了嘛對不對"},{"start":11287.13,"end":11303.747,"text":"我想是這樣我講這麼多我其實大家不要誤會我是相當支持要保障我們所有專業勞動者的權益但是涉及這個勞動權益的立法就是應該在這個就應該定在這個特別規範的這個勞動保護的這個專屬的法律裡面"},{"start":11307.751,"end":11320.723,"text":"我想部長您跟這個洪聖翰部長現在都是那個的閣員那這一次的提案呢我們洪部長他又是主題案人所以剛好他又是擔任這個勞動部部長所以本席具體建議"},{"start":11322.042,"end":11343.533,"text":"部長你應該要通知就是轉資那個洪部長是不是由這個勞動部主動來提出這個勞保條例救福法等等的這個法律的修正草案然後再由衛福部來評估協助然後經行政院通過後再提出這樣的程序建議部長覺得這樣有沒有比較好一點"},{"start":11344.706,"end":11371.073,"text":"因為以現行的這個法律如果已經有所規範就按照現行的這個各該法律規範就好除非我們有特殊例外的情形才在我們的法律裡面去規定所以剛剛本席具體建議部長你可以參考一下你們應該常見面啦好那這個部分你們可以討論討論那我另外也要部長留步那另外請這個財政部"},{"start":11373.877,"end":11374.42,"text":"財政部的誰複稅署嗎"},{"start":11380.276,"end":11405.268,"text":"我先說明一下這個在本席在這一次的這個醫療法的有提出第88條的修正案那我先說明一下本席的提案內容所指的偏鄉不是只有衛福部所列的交通不便的地方而是還有55個這個原鄉全部都包括在內"},{"start":11407.049,"end":11424.272,"text":"另外我會提到這個法案的原因是因為我從去年我在委員會裡面呢就不斷的在提出這樣的概念就是希望對於偏鄉的醫事人員可以給他們有那麼一點點的這個鼓勵跟優惠是"},{"start":11425.453,"end":11443.338,"text":"而且這樣的優惠他是不需要經過醫院的而是直接受惠於所有的醫事人員因為對於這個偏鄉醫事人員的這個所有的獎勵或加成只要透過醫院之後都會進入醫院的這個大水庫內我想這個問題"},{"start":11444.958,"end":11465.272,"text":"我們在未還其實很多委員都有提到啦那醫事人員真正收到的其實是打折再打折之後的這些獎勵那有時候還會被變相視為說薪水的一部分所以根本就沒有達到這個獎勵的效果那像我之前提到的住院護理住院這個"},{"start":11468.134,"end":11494.791,"text":"護理費偏鄉醫院的加成根本沒有實質進到偏鄉護理師的薪資這個是一個既定的事實那去年呢本席一直在這裡提出說希望推動這個偏鄉醫護的特別扣除額那我和財政部多次的開會財政部是大力的反彈說稅法不該輕易的修正那本席才左思右想這個山不轉路轉我們轉來轉去想到"},{"start":11497.412,"end":11520.241,"text":"才用就是說我們來改題這個醫療法88條的這個修正在這個醫事人員的主觀法令直接規定醫事人員部分收入免納所得那本期的提案呢除了這個莊惠雄委員共提之外呢還有王振旭委員當然他在其他委員他在委員會也針對這個內容諮詢了兩次那"},{"start":11524.023,"end":11537.621,"text":"我想也謝謝石部長他都一直很支持這樣的一個修正但我在這邊我想要再就是說請教財政部你們今天來這邊來列席請教一下你們的看法"},{"start":11540.368,"end":11568.438,"text":"跟委員報告目前各行各業所有的薪資所得不管他的行業別是什麼那現在都是平等的對待都是要平等就是就是你們說的齊頭是要平等嗎你們也之前也頒出了憲法第七條嘛法律之前要人人這個人人平等嗎不管不管是性別啦政黨啦還是還是所有一切的一切通通都要平等嗎"},{"start":11571.401,"end":11572.164,"text":"這個我早就知道你們會這麼提"},{"start":11574.605,"end":11603.664,"text":"我想是這樣我提這個醫療法修法希望這個偏鄉醫事人員部分收入免稅的概念他不是首創我們來看一下產業創新條例就針對研發者或投資的個人公司給予這個付稅上的優惠那為什麼鼓勵產業創新就可以那鼓勵偏鄉醫事人員卻不行那個不好意思那部長你先可以先回座休息一下了"},{"start":11605.546,"end":11618.423,"text":"這個部分產業創新條例我剛剛舉的例子就是我們鼓勵產業創新可以鼓勵偏向醫師人員就不行可不可以告訴大家為什麼"},{"start":11621.419,"end":11647.476,"text":"報告委員那個產業創新條例是有特定的希望他從事特定的投資行為那針對他從事的特定投資行為就是你們有有特定期待的一個項目可以多一點人投資那我們一樣啊我們這個偏鄉偏鄉離島的部分我們也是希望有多一點的這個醫事人員投入啊我想雖然這個"},{"start":11649.537,"end":11677.662,"text":"品項 項目不同但是要解決問題的概念方式是相同的那政府體恤農民耕作的辛苦那要面對許多的天然災害的風險所以自78年起個人自立耕作的農民成本認定是百分之百這段文字是財政部今年1月回覆立法院財政委員會的文字內容農民很辛苦"},{"start":11678.502,"end":11707.922,"text":"本席絕對支持那但是願意到偏鄉服務貢獻的醫師人員他們選擇的是一個生活機能比較差交通不便薪資也不一定比較高的地方去服務他們也很辛苦他們的辛苦也不會亞於這些農民農民種植農作物讓我們吃可以吃得飽吃得健康醫事人員所做的一切一切的這個醫療行為也是在幫助我們"},{"start":11708.562,"end":11726.513,"text":"要活得下去要活得好活得健康所以當然這些都可以給他們租稅上的鼓勵嘛所以如果說還要再講到稅法財政部你們的你們覺得說你們主管的這個所謂的稅法有合乎你們所謂的齊頭四平等嗎那我還可以再講一個喔"},{"start":11729.895,"end":11750.987,"text":"就是在這個房屋租金支出特別扣除了來說我是支持要減輕租屋族的壓力但是大家想想在座每一位都是租房子嗎我們不是每一個人都租房子耶所以財政部你們覺得說這樣子是合乎所謂的公平嗎如果要按照你們的邏輯去比較的話"},{"start":11754.353,"end":11782.743,"text":"報告委員剛剛舉的這些稅法規定都是只要符合要件人人都能使用沒有職業別或者是地區別的差別待遇但是所以我們在台東的蘭嶼綠島他們的我說這些交通的建設這些醫療資源就有很明顯的差別啊所以我們想盡辦法可以在"},{"start":11784.702,"end":11798.826,"text":"盡量來說短這些差距今天講這麼多我不是要來跟你辯論的是請你們就你們平等的這個邏輯上想辦法讓我們平等對不對所以你們麻煩你們腦筋可以轉個彎"},{"start":11806.653,"end":11826.048,"text":"那不是說財政部認為的公平就是公平那我們想要達到的公平就不是公平啊好所以因為我想講了這麼久其實我想問一個問題如果按照本席的這個修法後的版本每年會減少多少稅收這個"},{"start":11831.894,"end":11857.806,"text":"目前沒有辦法評估因為沒有所有這些醫護人員的相關的資料那我們跟你們討論了這麼長的時間你們也沒有想要試著瞭解你們就直接反對啦我這樣講沒錯吧你覺得這樣是對的嗎不是任何事情都你要反對喔反對你要去試算啊那你們可不可以回去算一下那可能要有資料部長可以馬上提供給他們嗎"},{"start":11860.885,"end":11867.111,"text":"不是不是多少就是說他沒有那個醫事人員的資料在偏鄉"},{"start":11869.841,"end":11891.805,"text":"對啊所以這個你們提供就你們可以大概抓一下數字嘛那我再問你這個產業創新條例就針對個人研發投資新創提供的多項這個稅務優惠那這個部分啦你們算過就是前年去年就減少多少這個稅收的部分"},{"start":11892.795,"end":11917.882,"text":"這個目前手頭上沒有 是不是會後再提供給委員好 那我就請你算算剛剛那個齁 然後再比較一下你們要去試算啦 如果說對 針對這個偏鄉離島的議事人員減少這些部分稅收 然後我們財政會垮掉你就來跟我講嘛 我就測案啊委員我們不是用財政垮掉這個理由的"},{"start":11920.379,"end":11949.004,"text":"所以他就根本不是個理由不會垮掉嘛因為不要忘了我們前年我們前年這個稅收超徵多少五千多億耶搞得後來還立委提案還每人普發一萬這些錢分那麼一點點去用在救救我們去去這個把我們的這個醫事人員的部分給他們補貼一些這樣有什麼不好然後讓我們偏鄉的這些人這些居民"},{"start":11949.904,"end":11977.771,"text":"可以有多一點的醫事人員願意留在我們的地方這樣有什麼不好都是你都在做善事啊市委員我們是建議是說由主管機關從整個醫療待遇或者是醫療環境的方面去改善這個部分大家都會一起努力啦但是你們能做的也不要這麼吝嗇不要做什麼都不做嘛其實你們做得到的啊只是腦筋轉一下而已嘛"},{"start":11979.875,"end":12004.412,"text":"對啊那如果就是一直要這樣子我想這件事情你說講了100年也不會過呀我覺得我們今天政府要解決一件事情應該想盡辦法每個人能夠做到的每個部會能夠做到的大家都盡一點心力好那就麻煩你們先試算謝謝"},{"start":12007.807,"end":12010.609,"text":"謝謝陳英委員的發言現在請賴思寶委員質詢謝謝主席有請五部的時部長有請時部長賴委員好時部長你好我看到今天一波"},{"start":12033.948,"end":12040.53,"text":"你這麼辛苦喔在這裡 我想這個應該看到醫療法了這跟醫療有關係的喔聽說賴總統這兩天有打電話給你是不是我們一直都有在重要的政策都會跟總統報告這兩天有打電話給你講那個啊講說那個護病筆要入法這個事情"},{"start":12062.874,"end":12065.6,"text":"其實護病筆錄法這個我們一直都在研議啦這個賴總統還說緩衝期兩年"},{"start":12073.772,"end":12083.677,"text":"兩年後又死屍了啊你們不敢修這個醫師法不敢修醫療法你們就去用那個什麼行政命令來給他做變這個樣子啊不是這樣不是這樣不是這樣其實護病比的問題就是護理能力的問題總統一直都很關切所以我定期都會跟總統報告他的證件喔他的選總統的證件喔我都會定期的跟他報告那這個白天是1比6對不對"},{"start":12101.506,"end":12122.828,"text":"醫學中心啦小月班1比9大月班1比11對不對這個是應該是在我們在113年要推動這個三班互併比獎勵的時候的獎勵標準啦獎勵標準如果你達到這樣獎金發多少獎金發多少就是一年大概在16、7億左右太久了"},{"start":12123.208,"end":12151.334,"text":"你不怪不怪你護理師找到這樣近四個月流失一千三百多個網購夜班津貼一年就發了四十幾億啊夜班津貼也有啊另外我們也在調這個健保的護理費這個一年調二十五億有些護理師跟我們反映啊啊它掉來掉去啊結果這邊才有那邊就沒有你為什麼不護理師現在四個月流失一千三百個"},{"start":12153.665,"end":12172.938,"text":"勞動節他們有他們的呼籲他們呼籲就是工作尊嚴合理的勞動條件合理的勞動條件很重要的就是income的問題全世界都在嗆護理師台灣的護理師好用到國外美國如果你是RN"},{"start":12174.808,"end":12195.663,"text":"註冊的護理師基本上來講要拿利卡都很容易啊全世界在搶啊你要保愛財經我們今年3月叫去年3月同期增加的護理師大概是4900名啦4000多可是走掉了1300這個每年都會有進進出出啦但是現在我們講那個現在有些的"},{"start":12199.626,"end":12212.854,"text":"這個醫學中心或者區醫院比較大的醫院那個床都沒辦法全部開因為沒護理師請問平均我們的駕動率多少所以跟委員報告確實你哪人力不夠的時候強行要求入法這的確會造成關床的危機所以我們要一方面來增加護理人力所以你現在我特別跟你說"},{"start":12226.642,"end":12228.725,"text":"賴總統打電話給你講護病筆入法的事情結果基層的醫療協會他們就反對啊就你說這樣啊應該不是這樣說啦大家應該要來討論是說朝這個合理的護病筆"},{"start":12242.764,"end":12250.209,"text":"什麼叫合理的護病病所以這個就是我們要討論什麼叫合理的護病病因為我們要照顧1比6 1比9 1比10你怎麼這樣說 因為各層級各層級也不一樣各層級嘛 不一樣醫學中心有這個 你說醫學中心有這個醫學中心有這個"},{"start":12263.897,"end":12285.455,"text":"醫學中心現在113年我們有一個叫做三班對 一般113年開始我們有弄一個標準來做三班護病比獎勵嘛那獎勵的意思是說你達到這個標準我們就給你獎勵這個標準是白班6 小夜9 大夜11醫學中心是這樣獎勵多少錢啦獎勵給誰獎勵給醫院還是給護理師由醫院發給護理師"},{"start":12293.297,"end":12319.288,"text":"你去查一下你到醫院醫院不一定會有護理師我們都有一個申訴平台如果沒有拿到可以來申訴拿多少拿多少啦 拿多少都不一樣 因為每個醫院不一樣平均的 平均醫學中心平均多少醫學中心平均一個護理師可以增加多少有的醫院他就拿了因為今天五一六中節要到了啊大家很在乎他的工作條件啊"},{"start":12322.324,"end":12326.607,"text":"我們計算一下我再請業務單位他們有再提供"},{"start":12329.329,"end":12357.338,"text":"一個月有沒有一萬一個月喔沒有啊 絕對沒有啊差不多啊幾千塊而已沒有到一萬的啦沒有啦 夜班的有喔大夜班不可能啦白天沒有啦所以如果你是有上夜班的事白天沒有啦真的你們要聽一下趙少康的一個做法嘛你跟護理師普遍加一萬塊啊你稍等一下"},{"start":12359.431,"end":12387.222,"text":"快到了是吧沒有沒有沒有我一定結束你放心好不好我在三分鐘結束來那個NEWS WEEK美國NEWS WEEK排名全球的最佳醫院台北榮總被排進來了前250名裡面台北榮總台大醫院台北榮總排174台大排249前五名的台中榮總林口長庚高雄長庚"},{"start":12389.116,"end":12415.502,"text":"裡面啦 我講一個問題啦新加坡大學醫院排第十名東京醫大輔助醫院排第十三名所以亞洲的醫院可以排到十幾名喔這個你當部長你要不要有一個豪情壯志或者你有一個企圖心啊說讓台灣不想就榮總跟台大有辦法擠到前一百名有可能嗎"},{"start":12416.941,"end":12442.358,"text":"跟委員說明這個都是要去報名然後也要繳很多錢這個不是一般的這個我們所謂的評鑑這樣你們不是鼓勵嗎那我們是對國內來做服務為主不是要去爭取很多外國的病人來所以在這一個方面我們是覺得是所以這個不重要我們重視的是分析這個不重要"},{"start":12442.918,"end":12470.017,"text":"不重要 重要的是分級醫療不要去大家統統擠到幾個知名醫院把它統統排完之後大家都要往知名醫院不對 合適的病到合適的醫院我要問你的題目是說你要不要在台中台灣的媒體裡面做一下醫院的ranking不必要 不必要我們認為的是分級醫療分級醫療不是要鼓勵大家去固定的幾家我開了眼界"},{"start":12471.337,"end":12491.784,"text":"這個全世界大家的追求都是說我們希望有最好這個醫院都放在大學裡面像台大輻射醫院台北醫學大學輻射醫院等等的榮總現在也是有人講說你會不會放在陽明大學裡面結果你不是要這樣子你完全是不考慮這個所以你對於這些來講的話我要強調的是說今天講醫療法醫師"},{"start":12497.167,"end":12501.522,"text":"其實醫師很辛苦 除了臨床之外 醫師還要做研究"},{"start":12504.861,"end":12526.978,"text":"還有做研究跟平安捏對不對他們的深層跟我們跟研究很有關係喔我們也鼓勵這個我覺得這樣最後一句話來因為我時間到了喔就5點半可能到了我說結束喔你可以教育跟教育部好好去討論一下怎麼樣讓這個衛福部跟教育部好的研究讓今天是醫療法談到醫師談到護理師讓他們的路"},{"start":12529.92,"end":12547.027,"text":"醫師的路不要那麼的一個辛苦因為他除了看病人還要做研究非常辛苦的你也做過醫師嗎都知道對不對跟全世界都這樣好的醫院一定在大學裡面的這個全世界都這樣"},{"start":12550.009,"end":12565.92,"text":"跟委員說明其實教育部都有在做大學排名啦他們去做他們有大學排名可是我們醫院我們不做排名因為我們重視的是適當的病到適當的醫院去看分級醫療最重要適度排名是有必要的啦謝謝謝謝賴世保委員的諮詢"},{"start":12570.478,"end":12588.158,"text":"月圓之委員 月圓之委員 月圓之委員不在本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉祥 邱振軍所提於書面質詢六日記錄刊登公報現在作以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內書面答覆"},{"start":12590.461,"end":12607.208,"text":"委員6要求期限者從期鎖定委員柯子英本17人凝聚醫療法第24條及第106條條文修正草案等38案尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":12625.693,"end":12625.933,"text":"謝謝大家。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}