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謝謝"},{"start":1719.192,"end":1736.398,"text":"我先跟委員會報告,這個預算的審查,現在各個單位都有來要敲定審查的日期,包括行政院也有來做討論只要有來做討論,我們都會尊重各個單位希望排的日期,我們會盡快去安排以上跟大家報告"},{"start":1764.25,"end":1765.319,"text":"那接下來請黃婕如委員發言"},{"start":1779.31,"end":1803.632,"text":"好 各位同仁早安喔今天本來是要懷著非常莊嚴的心情因為好不容易各黨派大家都有共識我們要來審18歲的公民權希望今天大家可以一起來支持18歲的青年就可以有投票的權利可是很遺憾的很驚悚的是竟然在今天的議程裡面被安插了一個量身打造的會選減刑的條款"},{"start":1805.779,"end":1809.62,"text":"我看了非常驚訝 今天不是要來一起來支持青年權益嗎為什麼在這個以青年權益為名在實質上卻要暗渡城倉 卻要包藏禍心在裡面偷渡一個要為這個屏東的選情為了要幫蘇清泉來增加他的選票然後為了爭取周點論的支持竟然要幫周點論量身打造讓他買票不用關"},{"start":1834.344,"end":1834.725,"text":"今天這是什麼樣的一個條例在這邊我覺得非常的諷刺"},{"start":1838.991,"end":1863.797,"text":"然後呢其實在聯合報的這個新聞報導裡面看起來藍委也是不支持的啊所以我希望這邊既然要先想招委看起來也很無奈也是說這個國民黨高層下令希望要盡速的送出委員會但是藍委是非常的有壓力那我們是不是今天就不要審這個條例了呢這完全是一個違背民主制度在公然挑戰"},{"start":1864.677,"end":1872.238,"text":"台灣的民主法制的一個修法的方向我在這邊念一下這個藍偉就說得很好啊藍偉無奈的說總統副總統第87條很難辯護因為現在的情況是幫人會選的出事出錢的卻沒事因為周點亂花500萬買聯署書嘛然後現在已經是5月27號就要準備最後的宣判那所以呢這個藍偉說啊如果要修法應該是要幫"},{"start":1893.022,"end":1916.236,"text":"幫人會選的也要罰 會選的也要罰結果現在國民黨提出的版本是要幫周點論解套而且5月27號周點論案就要宣判了 說法也來不及擔心藍委忙半天還被罵的滿頭包然後最後行政院又不附屬 裡外全是對嘛 所以國民黨也都知道這就是一個完全不合理的提案也都知道會被罵的滿頭包 那何必在這邊被罵呢"},{"start":1919.318,"end":1942.146,"text":"是不是大家一起來把這個議程來變更今天就不要修這個這個總統副總統相關的這個條例不要讓我們為了這個個人的選舉結果公然的支持賄選公然的支持買票還覺得說這個買聯署書沒有關係既然可以不用去關這樣的條例你們真的停得下去嗎"},{"start":1943.306,"end":1961.656,"text":"全國人民也在這邊看看國民黨為了要支持搞屏東的選舉竟然在這邊量身打造在這邊為了特定的個案修法來挺會選 挺買票我相信全國人民都會撻伐所以在這邊拜託趕快把這個議程抽掉吧"},{"start":1972.12,"end":1989.59,"text":"那我們現在進行討論事項 請宣讀討論事項一 審查公職人員選舉罷免法繼續審查委員林盈瑾等20人 委員范雲等17人委員柯之恩等18人 委員陳金威等17人分別擬據公職人員選舉罷免法第14條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員張雅玲等19人擬據公職人員選舉罷免法第14條及第134條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1997.575,"end":2024.314,"text":"审查台湾民众党党团委员王洪威等17人委员陈秀宝等17人委员吴佩义等16人委员黄杰等20人分别拟据公职人员选举罢免法第14条条文修正筹案案审查总统副总统选举罢免法继续审查委员林怡瑾等20人拟据总统副总统选举罢免法第11条及第23条条文修正筹案案继续审查委员张亚玲等19人拟据总统副总统选举罢免法第11条第23条"},{"start":2025.655,"end":2051.529,"text":"及第117條條文修正常案案繼續審查委員范雲等17人委員柯志恩等17人分別擬據總統副總統選舉罷免法第11條及第23條條文修正常案案審查委員王紅薇等17人委員陳秀寶等17人委員吳佩儀等16人委員黃婕等20人分別擬據總統副總統罷免法第11條及第23條條文修正常案案審查委員林思明等21人擬據總統副總統選舉罷免法第87條條文修正常案案"},{"start":2055.091,"end":2055.332,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2092.216,"end":2120.083,"text":"現場有委員提案,今日討論事項二的第九案,零四名委員等提案本日不予審議,另訂其審議請問這零時提案,現場委員是否有異議沒有你們要討論一下嗎休息討論一下好,休息,我們休息討論一下"},{"start":2301.493,"end":2316.323,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":2346.049,"end":2346.801,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":2775.623,"end":2778.882,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2870.64,"end":2872.227,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":2985.899,"end":3002.61,"text":"好我就並剛才大家協商的這個提案的協商結果一併宣布這個今日的審查事項今日議程所列討論事項審查公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案第一"},{"start":3003.45,"end":3022.218,"text":"至五等五案及總統副總統選舉報名法第十一及第二十三條條文修正查案第一至四等四案 業經本會於一百一十五年四月八日本會期第五次全體委員會議決議均令定期繼續審查 原此本次會議"},{"start":3023.697,"end":3029.3,"text":"合併新增公職人員選舉報名法第14條條文修正草案第6至10等5案及總統副總統選舉報名法第11及第23條條文修正草案應變更議程這個原"},{"start":3042.011,"end":3068.476,"text":"第九案委員零四名等二十一人擬總統副總統選舉罷免法第八十七號條文修正草案本日暫不處理待行政院提出院版後令定期繼續審查令今日也不進行勳紮進行後續直接進行逐條審查現在介紹在場委員及列席官員那我們先介紹我們現場的李博義召委"},{"start":3071.274,"end":3093.566,"text":"張鴻祿委員王美惠委員黃潔委員蘇巧惠委員張志倫委員丁學中委員我們與會的官員,內政部劉世芳部長民政司鄭英宏司長"},{"start":3095.336,"end":3116.704,"text":"中央選舉委員會謝美玲主任秘書11點後到我們選務處王小玲處長法政處蔡京告處長法務部謝志明參事司法院民事廳廖佩玲法官教育部青年發展署陳奕聰副署長提案手領"},{"start":3124.191,"end":3144.087,"text":"那剛才的協商今日也不進行提案說明,因為上次在會議過程當中今日要審查的法案,委員都已經提案說明過了所以也不用請他們報告?可以不用報告"},{"start":3153.259,"end":3172.055,"text":"因為內政部集中選會上次也已報告過,本次也不進行報告因為今日法案處理,本次會議就不處理臨時提案,請問各位委員有無意見?沒有好,那我們就進行協商"},{"start":3180.413,"end":3188.458,"text":"抱歉跟證,報告委員會現在進行法案審查,請宣讀討論事項所有條文請宣讀"},{"start":3195.919,"end":3211.657,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條委員林益靜等二十人委員范雲等十七人委員柯之恩等十八人委員陳金威等十七人台灣命中黨黨團委員王宏威等十七人委員陳秀寶等十七人委員吳佩義等十六人委員黃婕等二十人提案第十四條修正為中華民國國民"},{"start":3212.678,"end":3234.352,"text":"年滿18歲有選舉權委員張雅玲等19人提案修正為中華民國國民年滿18歲有選舉及罷免權第134條委員張雅玲等19人提案第二項後段新增本法中華民國圈年圈月圈日修正通過之第14條條文自公佈日施行其餘同現行條文修正動議一"},{"start":3235.653,"end":3252.499,"text":"第134條本法制公佈日施行本法中華民國98年5月12日修正這條文自98年11月23日施行本法中華民國全年全月全日修正通過這條文施行日期由行政院定之提案人王美惠等人"},{"start":3253.939,"end":3277.495,"text":"總統、副總統選舉罷免法第十一條委員林益菁等二十人委員范瑩等十七人委員柯之恩等十七人委員王宏威等十七人委員陳秀寶等十七人委員吳佩義等十六人委員黃潔等二十人提案第十一條修正為中華民國自由地區人民年滿十八歲有選舉權委員張雅玲等十九人提案修正為中華民國自由地區人民年滿十八歲有選舉及罷免權"},{"start":3279.036,"end":3280.417,"text":"第三項年滿20歲者修正為年滿18歲者給予同線型條文"},{"start":3295.41,"end":3307.263,"text":"第117條委員張雅玲等19人提案最後段新增全年全月全日修正通過至第11條條文自公佈日施行其餘同現行條文總統副總統選舉罷免法修正動議第117條本法自公佈日施行本法中華民國95年5月5日修正這條文自95年7月1日施行"},{"start":3315.573,"end":3327.683,"text":"98年5月12日修正這條文自98年11月23日施行本法中華民國全年全月全日修正通過這條文施行日期由行政院定之提案人王美惠等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":3331.65,"end":3356.146,"text":"好在協商之前我還是補充報告剛剛我說總統副總統選舉罷免法第87條條文帶行政院送院板再進行後續審查那剛剛的決議也有請行政不只等他來啦我們剛剛的決議應該也是有請行政院提出院板有針對社會針對87條討論事項也請行政院提出院板的草案好做這樣子的決議謝謝那我們現在開始進行協商"},{"start":3434.7,"end":3445.064,"text":"好現在開始審查公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案共計10版本兩條那我們就逐條審查那我們現在開始先進行第14條的審查"},{"start":3456.431,"end":3457.752,"text":"好請許中信委員召委還有部長還有各位同仁台灣民眾黨為了要促進18歲的公民權我們做了一個提案那這個提案我們認為"},{"start":3478.858,"end":3508.002,"text":"現在台灣在少子化的趨勢之下到2065年台灣人民有可能減半所以我們現在處理很多公民權的事情其實是跟18歲的年輕人切身相關所以我們參考的古今中外我們認為18歲給公民權這是適當的所以我先來跟各位報告據我所知道"},{"start":3510.243,"end":3531.908,"text":"這個古代 行藝的詩說呢它之所以寫作 它說李氏子盤 蓮十七好古文 六藝精篆 絕通襲之學於於 故作詩說以一之所以李氏子盤十七那麼我們來看看"},{"start":3533.137,"end":3546.013,"text":"我們全世界最年輕的法學博士那是荷蘭的自然法學派的宗師叫格羅秀斯格羅秀斯他拿到法學博士才14歲"},{"start":3556.308,"end":3566.918,"text":"那麼我們再看看日本明治天皇明治維新使得日本成為東亞的強國日本明治天皇維新的時候"},{"start":3575.721,"end":3593.363,"text":"16歲明知天皇所以各位我們可以看到這樣古今中外對於公共事務的參與年齡並不是重要的而是他對國家有沒有熱忱跟投入而我們現在年輕人要面臨"},{"start":3594.81,"end":3622.651,"text":"到時候少子化所造成的這樣一個問題讓他們提早有公民權這是對的而且就現在各國而言大陸法治的國家德國、法國、義大利公民權也都是18歲投票權而英國法的國家英國、美國、加拿大也都是18歲所以本黨才會提出18歲公民權的一個修正以上進行公決 謝謝"},{"start":3626.001,"end":3649.875,"text":"好那我們接下來我先宣讀一下順序先蘇巧慧委員林益晉委員再王美惠委員亦續發言那我們現在請蘇巧慧委員發言好謝謝主席我想18歲的選舉權是民進黨一直以來的主張那憲法將選舉權定為20歲是基於當時的時空背景同時也運用了民法20歲為具識別能力行為人的判斷標準"},{"start":3650.916,"end":3671.056,"text":"但是很顯然隨著現在時代的變化我們人民教育水準提升那台灣社會已經完全不只是在社會上甚至在法律上也都接受負18歲人民完整公民權利了民法公民法甚至都已經修正了所以我們在上一屆才會把這個在朝野的共識下通過了修憲案"},{"start":3671.937,"end":3700.235,"text":"那只是很遺憾在2022年的修憲復決公投這個其實有一些狀況嘛今天為了審查的和諧我們不特別多說但是反正最後就是其實有最後未達修憲門檻所以並沒有通過啦那這一次有不分藍綠白的委員都提出直接修改選罷法的方式來達到18歲選舉前的目的我想大家雖然有共識但是"},{"start":3701.596,"end":3716.129,"text":"但是我們對於只靠修法不用修憲這當然是有爭議的地方所以如果這次的修法共識出委員會那我覺得還是必須同時回到修憲委員會來討論我們要至少要修憲與修法並行這也許是比較周延的辦法"},{"start":3717.23,"end":3720.354,"text":"如果有人提案修總統副總統選罷法讓留署階段我想就是修憲與修法並行應該是我們這次比較大的想法現在在這裡提出討論"},{"start":3736.024,"end":3753.682,"text":"好請林益菁委員好謝謝主席這個針對選舉年齡由20歲調降到18歲我想這是立法院三黨都有共識的那不過要如何確保法制作業是完備我想這也是我們委員會要很細緻討論的主軸之一那不能只是簡單說有共識就趕緊送出委員會"},{"start":3756.084,"end":3783.022,"text":"那至於要走修法或修憲我想我在這邊做一些說明因為我之前有表示過我們在詢答的時候選舉年齡的調整如果透過單純只修法絕對沒有辦法一來我永逸畢竟它除了憲法法庭之外還包含立委、學者還有就是沒有任何人可以簡單去宣稱說18歲公民權可以直接修法而且是完全合憲"},{"start":3783.923,"end":3798.354,"text":"那所以這個問題如果沒有透過修憲或釋憲來解決我想恐怕未來是非常相當有疑慮喔那我們先講結論為了不讓修法後這個行政機關會陷入違背立法院決議以及違憲之間的兩難"},{"start":3800.896,"end":3828.23,"text":"所以我們針對這次修法我有提出修正動議喔那在各位的桌上那就明併說本次修法施行日期由行政院定之那之所以這樣提喔一來就是要給行政機關準備選務的空間跟時間那二來是說要讓大法官有準備釋憲的餘裕那不然這個憲法議題就將處在一個憲法字面上說是20歲可是法律又說18歲"},{"start":3829.611,"end":3847.538,"text":"那就沒有一個司法院、大法院高度的說明去解釋為什麼這樣子可行的一役的狀態所以我主張行政院的設定這個施行日期是比較有彈性的空間那對大法官來講就是說立法院這個細緻的討論的脈絡當然是重要的"},{"start":3850.499,"end":3865.966,"text":"那要提到釋憲我想我們就要有足夠縝密的沙盤推演才不會大家好像一片樂觀那卻在憲法法庭之前之前的審查就遭到駁回那或者說憲法這個判決出來那發現根本沒有20歲投票聯名"},{"start":3869.567,"end":3880.932,"text":"是一個保障說啦有時候18歲有辦法投票這個解釋空間簡單來講我覺得就是說憲法問題真的還是要透過憲法的手段才是穩健的策略以上 謝謝"},{"start":3884.554,"end":3904.288,"text":"好 我們現在請王美惠委員發言謝謝 感謝主席在這裡 我的意見是在十八月我們已經是民法的承認人了但是必須付出完全的刑事責任既然給他有這個責任的刑事責任沒有辦法給他管理嘛"},{"start":3908.391,"end":3920.95,"text":"在這裡,我是支持投票人的年份到18歲為了落實世代正義,讓年輕人可以固定自己的未來"},{"start":3922.692,"end":3928.88,"text":"在這個規定當中,我們愛民主的問題是,憲法規定到投票是20歲,我們現在是不是可以先通過選票法搞好事先?"},{"start":3939.846,"end":3946.909,"text":"在這裏面我又要來請教我們總選委說明一下我們年底的大選計較如果這個2月20月來到18月在這個過程當中你們有幾個準備可以確保選務工作可以順利"},{"start":3963.297,"end":3973.766,"text":"這才是最重要的因為我覺得長久以來年輕人可以讓他有自主性可以讓他自己自己要未來的一個國家一個故鄉以上好那就先請中選會針對王美惠委員的詢問回應謝謝"},{"start":3994.192,"end":3996.887,"text":"好那我們接下來先請李柏毅交委發言"},{"start":4003.926,"end":4024.484,"text":"我們這邊也是主張就是說18歲他已經要負完全的刑事責任那所以投票其實也自然應該要降為18歲但是我們透過修法那修法會有一個問題我很務實的提出來希望等一下內政部跟中選會也可以給一個具體的回應就是說這個修法之後如果"},{"start":4025.685,"end":4052.73,"text":"在今年的投票修法前投票前完成修法那真的18歲來投票了好那經過釋憲或者是修憲的程序如果是經過釋憲那釋憲之後認為我們還沒有完備這個修憲那所以18歲的投票那可能不算這時候會發生什麼事情呢可能有縣市長因為些微的票數的差距"},{"start":4054.795,"end":4060.808,"text":"當選變落選可能會有更多的縣市議員因為些微的票數變化當選變落選"},{"start":4064.096,"end":4089.101,"text":"這是有可能發生的所以我們在修這個法的同時我們期待也希望立法院的修憲委員會也可以一併的同步來進行這個討論之外呢釋憲這條路也是勢必要走的那我想我們在這邊表達對18歲公民權的支持之外也提出這些問題那希望我們可以做最周延的討論來完成這一項修法 謝謝"},{"start":4093.137,"end":4116.019,"text":"好謝謝李博威召委其實我可以先當然我不能代表主管機關啦但這個問題我問過曾經在那個陸配之前討論陸籍配偶參政權的事情我問他欸那當初這個你覺得陸配沒有這個擔任公職的權利那一樣的那投票的權利一樣那過去曾經投過的票怎麼算他們說這個無法切割"},{"start":4117.521,"end":4128.459,"text":"然後他們說無法切割啊這個無法去針對過去造成的結果去做切割做任何的其他的處分當然還是以主管機關的宣告為主啦好那接下來我們請黃婕維委員發言"},{"start":4131.069,"end":4156.755,"text":"好 那其實上一次的審查已經質詢過了那我在這邊還是要表達一下因為截至今天為止我們這邊已經有看到說學界跟公民社會的這很多的團體已經有34個團體共同發起這個聲明所以這個社會的期待是非常大的我在這邊也希望要幫我們這些年輕人這一些公民社會來表達說大家真的很希望18歲公民權可以盡快開始實施這樣的期待"},{"start":4160.836,"end":4178.973,"text":"那我相信這個也是各黨的共識那我在這邊也補充一下上次沒有提到的那雖然這個是大家的共識但是這個爭議還是存在的就是包括憲法130條需不需要也同步的來修正那所以我也認為說如果可以的話當然憲法的修正還是可以同步的進行"},{"start":4179.594,"end":4197.563,"text":"那我知道說上市吳佩穎委員跟林一金委員其實都也有提憲法修正案的版本那也進到修憲委員會了所以希望說未來的這個修憲事項在修憲委員會裡面跟我們審查這個選報法大家是同步的並不衝突那甚至是兩個並行未來是可以更快的有共識"},{"start":4198.343,"end":4224.323,"text":"那最後就是這個施行日期的部分這個也是希望說內政部跟中選會稍後也可以來做一下說明就是說如果我們在我們很快的在這邊審完送出的話是不是年底就要開始年底的這次選舉就會適用了呢那如果我們這個施行日期是說會適用的話那是不是我們中選會跟內政部這邊都要提早做好準備因為就我所知這個首投族應該是有40萬左右"},{"start":4225.103,"end":4235.936,"text":"那這個針對這40萬的手頭族你們接下來的選務應該要是有提前的準備這個是很重要的所以我希望也在這邊提前的把這樣子可能會遇到的狀況來請中選會要提前因應好 謝謝"},{"start":4242.281,"end":4258.154,"text":"好 下面請張志龍委員發言好 謝謝張磊各位委員大家好那今天有關於公民投票法是不是修改賦予18歲公民行使投票權那我想剛剛聽到所有委員的分享其實今天每一條是跨黨派"},{"start":4260.015,"end":4280.481,"text":"這個委員都支持那因為大家特別有提到就是有關於權力跟義務上像現在18歲的年輕人其實他們在義務上不管是刑事民事稅務兵役等等的義務他們都已經要擔任這樣的義務可是權力的部分他們當然是現在選舉權還是被視為是20歲而不是18歲所以我想這個當然有權力跟義務顯不相當"},{"start":4285.222,"end":4307.955,"text":"的一個問題所以我想這個修正是有修正的必要也有討論的必要來保障青年的權利那剛剛很多委員都特別提到了要修憲那其實立法院剛剛也跟部長有聊到其實我們立法院是有這個修憲委員會那如果大家各黨有共識的話其實可以往這個方向來去做進行的那以早日"},{"start":4309.015,"end":4330.036,"text":"一早日讓這些年輕人有機會行使他們的權利當然等一下也拜託中選會可以提說現在到底在跨各個縣市裡面到底有多少20歲到18歲的年輕人可能會在今年11月28年底的大選有機會來去做投票的數字"},{"start":4331.037,"end":4348.892,"text":"大概是多少 那以及這個今年年底還來不來得及針對選務作業的部分來不來得及來因應如果年底真的有機會在11月28號的地方大選有機會投票的話中選會的程序部分有沒有機會趕得上以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們下一位請吳祁銘委員發言"},{"start":4361.512,"end":4375.433,"text":"我們議會同仁其實我早上我聽了很多我們各黨派大家對我們公民行使投票權下降到18歲我認為大家這是一個全民的共識"},{"start":4376.934,"end":4400.348,"text":"現在世界各國的參選人年齡層都下降所有的一些參選人在台灣也是都下降所以我認為到18歲這是全民的共識我認為應該是我們大家都要有共同的支持這個是我本席所堅持支持的18歲公民投票權謝謝"},{"start":4404.656,"end":4430.213,"text":"我們下面請張宏祿委員發言其實大家對18歲好像都有一致了啦我覺得18歲這個就對大家都有共識就不用特別再說但我個人是說其實我們修這個選罷法修的是這個大家疑慮的是"},{"start":4431.874,"end":4436.536,"text":"憲法的規定憲法130條年滿20歲有依法選舉權我們知道台灣的憲法是剛性的而且是最高的位階"},{"start":4447.259,"end":4469.45,"text":"所以我們今天只要思考如何去解決有沒有違憲的問題我覺得這是我們今天大家在這邊要去考慮的這個而已啦所以我是希望說大家都發言完了我們等一下是要來處理這個問題我覺得這個修法就可以比較圓滿了我的建議是這樣我們接下來請徐信義委員發言"},{"start":4477.843,"end":4496.858,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我想我跟大家一樣我們支持年輕人就是18歲的公民權年輕人有資格也有能力來參與民主的決策但是大家都知道我們今天真正要討論的是怎麼做不會讓年輕人第一次投票就踩到地雷"},{"start":4497.779,"end":4520.928,"text":"所謂踩到地雷就如同剛剛前面委員所說的我們憲法第130條白紙黑字就寫中華民國國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權所以我們也看到這個法務部書面報告今天也有寫學界"},{"start":4523.128,"end":4550.638,"text":"這個學說見解不一樣憲法解釋實務也沒有就這個議題做成解釋或是憲法的裁判所以我們會很關心的就是說如果這部法我們通過了年底的地方選舉我們也讓18到20歲的年輕人來投票那事後如果有人申請憲法的裁判裁定修法違憲那請問這些年輕人的選票怎麼辦"},{"start":4551.778,"end":4567.616,"text":"那選舉結果有效嗎所以這一塊我想我們是不是最重要的問題那我們能不能要求兩件事第一個我們是不是內政部可以會同法務部中選會在兩週內提出書面說明"},{"start":4573.442,"end":4592.197,"text":"如果修法通過後遭申請憲法裁判政府有什麼具體的法律預備方案保障選舉結果的效力年輕人投出去的票政府有把握不會被宣告無效嗎這個選戰年底的選戰也是全國性的"},{"start":4593.069,"end":4613.518,"text":"那第二個請法務部評估是否就主動向憲法法庭來申請解釋就憲法第130條的性質取得正式的裁判那所以我們這個今天大家對這個都很關心所以我們也希望這一塊是大家所重視的謝謝"},{"start":4616.244,"end":4631.633,"text":"我剛才沒有補充憲法130條所謂20歲公民權那是我們大陸法系的憲法認為國家會侵害人民的權利所以給一個低標所以20歲是一個低標而我們憲法"},{"start":4633.988,"end":4662.303,"text":"不禁止我們立法權以更寬大的態度讓人民有選舉權至於剛才有同仁提到違憲的問題本院是立法院不是司法院的立法局那麼本院是立法院也不是行政院的立法局立法司法行政這三權是分立平行的我們立法以後如果有違憲那這個時候由司法院進行司法權來做"},{"start":4663.864,"end":4682.617,"text":"這個大法官的解釋 宣法法庭的解釋那麼如果我們行政院認為這個自愛難行我倒是可以建議各位我們今天行使我們的立法權保障我們的十八歲公民權台灣民眾黨是真的在支持所以我們希望要通俄通過但是施行日期"},{"start":4683.778,"end":4708.174,"text":"施行日期我們到處可以根據其他很多法律都是施行日期由行政院定之這樣就可以達到不會去影響這一次年底選舉的情形那如果連我這樣一個建議大家都不能夠採納的話那表示你們的支持施施有兩種支持有真的支持跟假的支持以上"},{"start":4712.688,"end":4731.765,"text":"那個就是說等一下部長會回應嘛我順便問一下那個部長認為我們這個憲法130條那個年滿20歲有依法選舉的權這個到底是保障規定還是限制規定我們可能要釐清一下齁對嘛所以這一塊"},{"start":4734.301,"end":4753.87,"text":"所以這一塊我們大家要審慎不然選舉結果真的這個會很有爭議好那剛剛委員所提的意見因為除了14條還有134條事情日期也都有一併提出來了那我們就請內政部跟中選會依據這兩條的部分一併予以回應"},{"start":4754.895,"end":4782.495,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉謝謝各位委員對於選罷法的關心我先釐清一下我們今天討論的是選舉罷免法以外還有總統副總統的選舉罷免法還是只有公職人員選罷法都有那第二個就是因為我們現在所討論的所謂的18歲的這個參政權在委員的提案裡面你們只有寫選舉權那除了張雅玲有加罷免權以外"},{"start":4783.115,"end":4807.596,"text":"那你是不是選舉罷免創制覆決都要包含在內這個是我提出的疑問請各位委員來參考這是在法條上面的部分再來就是有關到年底我們這邊有個資料就是說到今年二月底之前全台灣18歲到20歲的公民如果有公民權的話總共的人數是41萬1731人"},{"start":4811.439,"end":4833.393,"text":"那如果激烈到我們以那個到時候我們的民政單位所要公佈的這個選舉人口的時候應該還會增加因為我們是到二月底那事實上我們應該是到十一月到十一月為止還會增加那百分之七十都集中在六都百分之七十都集中在六都這個是有一些剛剛委員在詢問的時候需要知道的狀況"},{"start":4834.554,"end":4851.921,"text":"那再來就是是否有違憲的這個問題報告委員行政機關不是憲法的解釋機關那所以呢我們有在上一次這個也是廖委員在內政委員會所舉辦的這個公聽會裡面其實也是支持修憲跟反對"},{"start":4852.941,"end":4879.867,"text":"就是支持修法但是要不要修憲呢都是各有不同的立場我想各位委員都表達得非常清楚那剛剛那個委員也有提到說現在的立法院已經有成立修憲委員會那修憲委員會可以就憲法要不要修正的部分呢那請各位委員就以立法院的職權行使來處理這個我們都完全尊重那站在我們的立場上面就是說如果只有單純修選罷法降低18歲的參政權"},{"start":4882.048,"end":4897.789,"text":"未來在選舉上面一定會有疑慮那這個疑慮呢不可能只有行政機關可以單純做解釋恐怕要到司法機關我舉一個很簡單的例子提供給徐委員參考就是說如果選舉的席次只有一席"},{"start":4898.47,"end":4913.045,"text":"那因為我們台灣的選舉是吳季敏的投票那這個一席當中呢你的選票差距非常近那由哪一個人去提起釋憲官司通常都會當事人就是說輸的當事人那一方不一定是候選人"},{"start":4914.266,"end":4935.398,"text":"那他提事先官司的時候很有可能啊這個要選務機關來做認定就在選舉結束以後是不是就可以馬上認定說選舉結果就是代表誰是勝選誰是輸的那一方那這個呢沒有辦法純粹由選辦法這邊來做認定以上我們先做第一輪跟各位委員做一下解釋那我是不是請這個中選會中選會他選務機關來跟你補充一下"},{"start":4945.427,"end":4962.748,"text":"報告各位委員那中選會補充報告那就有關說如果這個選舉人的年齡降到18歲那依據內政部的這個估計是會增加大概41萬人左右那這41萬人的人數增加之後都會涉及到投票所設置名冊編造這些實務作業"},{"start":4965.131,"end":4986.046,"text":"那另外就是說選罷法131條裡面有講說本法修正施行前已發布選舉公告的選舉那適用修正前的規定那今年的選舉在11月28日舉行那8月20日會發布選舉公告所以如果是在8月28號以後才修正的那個法律的話那還是會適用舊法"},{"start":4986.406,"end":5014.745,"text":"就是說這個法律規定有修正新舊法適用還是要依照131條的規定辦理這是第一點第二點就是剛剛部長有提到說那個罷免的部分他那個這次有沒有要修那依照選罷法89條的規定他說罷免案之投票人投票人名冊及投開票准用本法有關選舉人選舉人名冊投票票之規定也就是說罷免的部分他這個投票人的年齡這些規定還有居住期限這些規定都是准用選舉人的這個部分"},{"start":5019.448,"end":5033.316,"text":"那還有剛剛提到說那是否說這些當選之後依選辦法規定那並不是說當天開票完這個結果就確定了那還要在七日內由那個主管選舉委員會來審定審定之後這個當選人名單才能確定以上"},{"start":5039.451,"end":5047.155,"text":"好我們法務部明天我們先請法務部謝志明參事然後等一下再請委員發言"},{"start":5051.487,"end":5076.229,"text":"謝謝家瑋還有各位委員與會各位先進就剛剛委員所提問的事項我們這邊做一個簡要的答覆首先就市縣130條市縣的未來走向如何其實很難在事前加以判定因為學說目前就我國憲法這個特有的規定其實是學說見解是不一的其實這個問題在學界討論非常多年到現在還沒有辦法定於一尊"},{"start":5077.209,"end":5094.561,"text":"各有各的道理事實上我們也去研究各國的相關的法制發現像日韓是沒有這個問題所以他們秀18歲很快那美國有美國在26th Amendment在第26修正法有但是它的規範結構不一樣它是很明顯的文藝上就是保障說所以大家可以定更低的"},{"start":5094.901,"end":5108.969,"text":"那德國基本法38條它其實有規定那德國基本法可是因為也沒有停留在也是停留在學說討論的階段沒有實務的發展那傾向文本主義的學者也很多啦就是要attach to那個文本的規定不能夠反文本"},{"start":5111.73,"end":5135.907,"text":"所以在這種狀況底下我們其實不管是我們哪個部會來共同來研議研議出來的見解我猜第一個是很難達到一致的結論第二個是這個結論其實也沒有辦法拘束憲法法庭因為在我國的釋憲實務上我們憲法的解釋還是專屬於憲法法庭的權責這邊來跟委員報告那第二件事情是有關釋憲的部分目前按照憲法訴訟法相關的規定法務部是沒有釋憲的申請權這邊也跟委員來說明"},{"start":5142.423,"end":5145.568,"text":"好有關這個行政機關的回應有委員還要提問嗎張宏烏委員"},{"start":5153.721,"end":5172.098,"text":"其實大家齁都認為這個18歲大家都有共識啦齁那我剛已經在講了就是說其實就是跟憲法的這個齁這個我們要如何去處理那當然大家一直在講啊什麼年底的選舉什麼我覺得我們的修法"},{"start":5172.879,"end":5188.454,"text":"是要長治久安也不是為了說年底的選舉說什麼你就算沒有解決這個問題你年底的選舉你之後的選舉還是會有這些問題出現啊所以我是不是這樣具體就是說大家"},{"start":5190.458,"end":5210.569,"text":"我們的這個18歲有選舉權大家有共識我們就處理施行的日期呢看是行政院定制或怎樣另外我們的內政委員會我們做一個就是附帶決議或是或怎麼樣就是說我們的修憲委員會什麼我們盡快來開會然後由這邊"},{"start":5215.495,"end":5235.084,"text":"來徹底解決這個問題我相信三黨都有共識18歲公民權那如果你修憲委會去處理之後那我們憲法把20改成18所有的問題都解決了我覺得我們比較負責任的修法我具體的建議是不是這樣"},{"start":5236.985,"end":5261.682,"text":"是不是這樣我再說一次就是18歲大家都同意施行日期呢我覺得有行政院訂制或是代修憲委員會修憲委員會實施我覺得這兩個可以考量一下但我們再做一個具體的決議就是說我們希望這個修憲委員會盡快開然後趕快把它這個憲法130條把它改過之後這個所有的問題都解決了我覺得"},{"start":5266.525,"end":5280.4,"text":"我們要可以解決這個我們現在要的選爆法的問題然後18歲的問題我覺得這樣子的話立法比較面面俱到啦看大家各位委員的看法"},{"start":5283.182,"end":5308.081,"text":"那一樣會經過國民投票嘛因為他有一條路是走市縣嘛我們是不要把它定制說一定要走那條路但是憲政爭議我們不在委員會處理啦那就憲法的爭議我們就是不在這邊處理嘛我們先把保留先送出然後黨團協商這樣子然後再到黨團協商那一邊"},{"start":5309.193,"end":5331.13,"text":"去做憲法爭議的討論可是憲法要不要修憲是立法院的事啊沒有沒有修憲不是只有立法院的事不是不是不是我現在講的是要送黨的我們今天是在修法憲法的問題是另外一個問題就是雙軌不能夠把它混在一起"},{"start":5331.93,"end":5351.68,"text":"所以因為憲法的疑慮不能立法的話我們立法院很多東西都不能立因為很多都有憲法的疑慮那當法官 憲法法庭也沒有設置的必要所以我們立法歸立法 事件歸事件那現在講的是程序上的問題啊那現在講的是一國傳統那個施行日期由行政院定制"},{"start":5354.521,"end":5370.953,"text":"我們家族群 雞兵地獄 什麼都玩 都是這樣做的對啊 這個是王梅威委員 我覺得同樣如果18歲在這個部署對 然後如果在家族群有新總編導資大家也沒有問題的話 那就不用做黨媒決策"},{"start":5379.837,"end":5398.804,"text":"因為還有134條啦 所以不會說一通過就實行這樣可是也很怪 你通過了不實行也很怪啊所以現在重點是要不要進到黨政協商啊不用 就在這裡通過就好"},{"start":5400.405,"end":5423.352,"text":"要不要進入黨媒協商 跟大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入黨媒協商 大家要不要進入"},{"start":5430.494,"end":5449.982,"text":"你要尊重每個委員啊施行日期授權遊行這邊訂制這個已經是台灣很多法案了那你也會給行政單位太大的壓力不會啦施行日期我們先舉一個問題施行日期遊行這邊訂制是不是我們現在的控制如果有控制我們先處理這一塊我要講 只能講"},{"start":5459.386,"end":5483.452,"text":"好請那個劉部長針對134條再補充說明選罷法的134條或是總統副總統的這個117條我們那個行政單位的建議就是說不要把它全法都是要施行日期有行政院定制可能對就是要修正一下譬如說這個本法就是有劃線的那個部分改成說14條"},{"start":5486.053,"end":5509.028,"text":"加上14條那個許中興委員大概知道我的意思那然後選對總統副總統選舉罷免法的話要加上11條及第23條就是要修正的部分啦否則我們到時候所有的選罷法都動不了我不曉得那個對對對王美惠委員所提的這個張雅玲的版本"},{"start":5516.262,"end":5524.009,"text":"我們把文字提供給委員參考好不好就只針對好不好我們剛所講的部分這樣比較對對對"},{"start":5537.736,"end":5561.91,"text":"沒有,選爸爸是14條啦,然後總統不總統的話就是11條到23條我們現在先針對134條中選會將修正的文字打在大屏幕上面,然後再請大家看一下另立一段好嗎?另立一段,不要同一段"},{"start":5567.946,"end":5589.499,"text":"自公佈日但是你十八到二十歲投下去的票也沒有...他的事情日期有什麼...對 他其實...對 現在...這個還沒有確立之前...至少有一個卡在那...因為那個誰在打...因為那個是自公佈日的日子卷"},{"start":5596.268,"end":5601.394,"text":"上次青年基本法的時候有個附帶決議上次的青年基本法這邊"},{"start":5616.756,"end":5629.419,"text":"要完備相關法制,我是覺得附帶決議還是放進去,因為附帶決議就是我們的附帶,這樣會比較好,不要說完全沒有講就出去了跟青年基本法一樣這樣比較好"},{"start":5633.47,"end":5635.892,"text":"因為不然女生會覺得說好像過了,而且沒再倒閉,就離開了"},{"start":5663.69,"end":5688.083,"text":"就現在的條文是照走啦然後那個只有那個18歲的話是等行政院定制所以我們現在把它列到第二段這樣比較好還好啦 這個是立法技術的問題啦沒有牽涉到什麼 還可以可是這樣現在的壓力就多了現在的壓力就多了因為等一下問他說 對啊 因為有壓力啊"},{"start":5690.162,"end":5691.843,"text":"好那您幫忙協助一下好不好"},{"start":5709.171,"end":5732.12,"text":"因為以後過了以後,18歲還是不能投,還是不能投啊?對,對,對那我們三讀過了以後,就沒辦法宣傳,就不能投啊你投票,有18歲都不能投過,然後底下一小行還有總統、副總統要修兩個條文對啦,對啦,對啦往前退一步啦,往前退一步啦,人說往前退一步啦"},{"start":5738.207,"end":5743.432,"text":"這個是中選會提出的修正版本請各位委員看一下我們就先跳過14項我們先看134"},{"start":5754.496,"end":5772.436,"text":"本法中華民國 全年、全月、全日修正之第十四條條文實行日期由行政院定之我覺得OK啦 因為不會影響原來的法令就針對十四條這個行政院定之這樣影響才不會影響其他的啦"},{"start":5778.424,"end":5780.585,"text":"那這條我就先讓他修正通過"},{"start":5802.213,"end":5823.024,"text":"好那我們這個公職人員選舉公職人員選舉罷免法第134條的修正照修正照委員會共識修正通過好那我們回到第14條就在134已經通過了前提之下那我們的14條要不要進到黨團協商好大家討論一下那是要用哪個版本九個版本啊"},{"start":5830.351,"end":5840.46,"text":"九個版本要用哪個版本沒有啦,他有寫選舉權,但是有個假名假名有罷免權那個罷免就屬用所以你選舉改,他就煮過來了他就煮過來了"},{"start":5858.074,"end":5863.779,"text":"可以准用嗎因為發明商有准用十幾年節的規定所以不用再特別規定"},{"start":5874.811,"end":5877.772,"text":"民眾黨團是說不用啦各黨都有提案"},{"start":5899.128,"end":5912.013,"text":"那現在大家都要這個公勞,現在大家就...不是啦,不是啦我們再討論法條啦,要互相尊重那就是各個提案嘛"},{"start":5915.898,"end":5924.621,"text":"總和的結論看主席怎麼宣告民眾黨不需要送黨團協商,就是上面這個那民眾黨不需要嘛,那民進黨要不要?沒有啦沒有啦,不用再協商了啦現在就是總和大家的提案有問題請起座,要說"},{"start":5944.13,"end":5953.079,"text":"勇敢的台灣啊勇敢的來自威廣圍可是這個塔條過了會不會被宣布那是以後的事情你們還有修憲呢 修憲委員會這個要討論嗎不是你要討論"},{"start":5965.692,"end":5969.798,"text":"因為還沒有公佈,所以沒有公佈就沒有違憲了,會公佈嗎?這個條文不會公佈,因為行政院定制會被公佈,這條法條會被公佈"},{"start":5985.657,"end":5999.722,"text":"有沒有更多人來一起看一看要公布會不會行政院說自案因為行政院定制還沒有過他就沒有實行困難的問題就對了這個法理就是讓行政院去處理我們內政自己覺得說要修憲委員會也進行討論的話沒有黨團協商他們會不會"},{"start":6009.333,"end":6013.735,"text":"盡速成立他們都長大了負擔決議,負擔決議沒有,一定要"},{"start":6019.659,"end":6034.611,"text":"就原來青年基本法也有這樣的不帶絕納 要完備修憲的程序所以行政院他不用實施行政 他就不會自然難行 那就不會有違憲的問題那個違憲我們立法機關不管我是怕我們修完以後這條變成"},{"start":6047.641,"end":6054.67,"text":"每次立法都要考慮危險的問題立法都要考慮危險的問題立法都要考慮危險的問題"},{"start":6064.773,"end":6078.141,"text":"因為重點是他沒有實行日期,所以警署院不會自然難行就不會違憲我沒有意見,現在這樣的狀況我沒有意見,我是對這個觀念看下法務部有沒有他現在就比較大法官會議了司法院憲法法律"},{"start":6103.265,"end":6104.146,"text":"我們請司法院"},{"start":6110.526,"end":6125.413,"text":"這幾天這麼多學生,讓大家都知道這個委員會都有同團的參與要不要秀在那個螢幕上?當然,這樣是不是讓大家都有參與"},{"start":6129.915,"end":6132.879,"text":"希望本院修憲委員會啟動修憲構圖"},{"start":6149.619,"end":6151.701,"text":"你對國家制度的變化"},{"start":6177.962,"end":6181.505,"text":"我們負責任啊先踢上去然後大家看一下"},{"start":6197.595,"end":6199.515,"text":"台灣法治的一步一步進步,就是這樣"},{"start":6225.569,"end":6240.35,"text":"就我們能做到的,我們做沒有,兩段"},{"start":6248.848,"end":6254.713,"text":"但是因為太陽中間185公尺微高下降185公尺"},{"start":6274.009,"end":6302.457,"text":"有暫時挖掠 先挖 挖掠 解釋 規定 以後發生憲政進程我覺得很好啊我覺得OK啊對啊 看其他大家OK不OK各位看一下有看OK啊 是吧有保護在決議就應該要你們看一下那個文字你們後面也可以看 如果眼睛不理我保護這邊沒有意見"},{"start":6303.298,"end":6305.183,"text":"那那個司法院 國會稍微 你剛剛說國會說這個負債決議就應該進黨的"},{"start":6317.671,"end":6321.613,"text":"因為你要啟動修憲工程,大家沒有一個共識"},{"start":6333.52,"end":6339.948,"text":"你的理念真偉大,要修憲,我也是在期待的"},{"start":6349.699,"end":6369.845,"text":"雖然內政其實這不是叫黨團協商我相信黨團也是同樣的結論但是就是過黨團大家更多人一起因為是要學協防稍微 你覺得這樣好不好這事實上 要說不是黨團協商大家啦"},{"start":6372.466,"end":6397.855,"text":"我相信去黨團也是這個結論啦但是只是說到黨團 因為這是本願嘛 要修憲嘛所以更多 你要問他 叫他趕快 那印出來啦那個印出來啦 過了就過了 就趕快嘛 印出來做事是很有效率的"},{"start":6399.856,"end":6414.255,"text":"張宏祿在吵 你放心吧張宏祿35分鐘有差 我給他60點半 比較快我叫他贏啦你剛剛騙我 你看時間就可以走了不用啦 不用騙擔 不用騙擔"},{"start":6547.483,"end":6550.498,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6632.605,"end":6657.08,"text":"好本期宣告公職委員選舉罷免法條文修正的第十四條依以下文字中華民國國民年滿十八歲有選舉權好通過主席再宣告一下進入會議進入"},{"start":6663.636,"end":6677.387,"text":"好第134條那依委員會共事本法制公佈第134條第二項以以下文字"},{"start":6680.134,"end":6696.948,"text":"第三項抱歉抱歉修正第一百三十四條以以下文字第三項的部分以以下文字本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之第十四條條文施行日期由行政院定之通過附帶決議以下"},{"start":6704.712,"end":6725.692,"text":"18歲公民權為當前世界潮流本院對於選舉權年齡下修據共識為18歲公民權涉及憲法第130條之憲法一義有待司法院憲法法庭解釋為避免日後發生憲政爭議建請本院修憲委員會啟動修憲工程同步展開18歲公民權相關修憲工作"},{"start":6747.43,"end":6758.835,"text":"好 我們現在開始進行總統副總統選舉罷免法第11條及第23條條文修正草案好 有人要發言嗎"},{"start":6760.851,"end":6769.035,"text":"各位委員 其實兩條都一模一樣啦我們是不是就是比照辦理這樣來處理就好了啦 好不好"},{"start":6826.567,"end":6843.154,"text":"好 我們先進行第11條的處理喔那我就依以下文字通過 看大家有沒有意見中華民國自由地區人民年滿18歲有選舉權依以上文字通過 大家是否有意見好 那就通過"},{"start":6855.308,"end":6877.398,"text":"同法第23條第三項以以下文字中華民國自由地區人民於選舉公告日年滿18歲者得為前項之連署人以以上文字修正通過不曉得委員會是否有異議好那就以以上文字通過修正通過"},{"start":6943.439,"end":6944.123,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6983.746,"end":6986.693,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":7047.298,"end":7056.833,"text":"中華來走你走這件事不行了我們叫中華走路走你走他走不走現在年齡多少沒中多少錢"},{"start":7176.482,"end":7201.639,"text":"好本法的第117條第三項我們依剛委員會的共識依下列文字本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之第11條及第23條條文施行日期由行政院定之以上的文字修正大家是否有異議好那就依委員會共識修正通過"},{"start":7237.48,"end":7238.024,"text":"同法附帶決議喔"},{"start":7240.83,"end":7267.881,"text":"18歲公民權為當前世界潮流本院對於選舉權年齡下修具共識為18歲公民權涉及憲法第130條之憲法一役有待司法院憲法法庭解釋為避免日後發生憲政爭議建請本院修憲委員會啟動修憲工程同步展開18歲公民權相關修憲工作以上附帶舉例大家是否有異議好那就依大家的這個共識通過"},{"start":7273.308,"end":7276.47,"text":"好請問各位委員照剛才的協商結論通過請問有無異議無異議通過"},{"start":7356.991,"end":7379.413,"text":"好 做一下決議討論四項所列公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案及抱歉喔 跟著討論四項所列公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案等十案及總統副總統選舉罷免法第十一條及第二十三條條文修正草案等八案"},{"start":7384.211,"end":7392.718,"text":"好 均已並案審查完略 並通過附帶決議兩項 擬據審查報告提報院會討論 請問在場委員是否需經黨團協商要好 那就需經黨團協商"},{"start":7414.741,"end":7436.091,"text":"本案於院會討論時由本席做補充說明審查通過之條文條次引述條文部分文字及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本次修正之條文行政機關如有補充立法說明會後請競訴送至內政委員會畢力納入審查報告本次會議到此結束 現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}