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我們繼續開會我們介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員先介紹在場的委員 來 我們最專業齒美山木成昭之委員跟爸爸不等了 他忙很大聲接著我們介紹應邀列席的官員列席的官員比較多啦 因為我們就只介紹考試院今天要報告的代表秘書長 劉建新秘書長"},{"start":1899.504,"end":1918.455,"text":"考選部 劉孟啟 劉部長全序部 施能傑 施部長公務人員保障暨培訓委員會 就是我們主任委員兼國家文官學院院長蔡秀娟 蔡院長"},{"start":1922.639,"end":1951.478,"text":"那其餘未及介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單我們不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本日的議程的排定是討論事項有四個案審查115年度中央政府總預算關於考試院及所屬的主管收支部分跟相關主管的三個基金收支部分所以我們今天的會議我們就僅進行詢答特別提醒那審查預算相關的提案我們就在"},{"start":1953.359,"end":1970.465,"text":"5月19號下午2點截止收件預時我們就不再受理每一個辦公室都很認真的但時間請大家特別注意留意一下那請機關於之後的會議處理提案之前也可以利用時間先跟提案的委員進行溝通協調"},{"start":1974.166,"end":1995.031,"text":"這個對於後續預算的一個審查 這個就進行會比較順利那我們現在就來進行機關報告 由於今天報告的機關有四個所以每一位發言時間 我都知道你們口才很好 就不用太長就三分經得 盡量控制在三分鐘那我們先請第一位 先請考試院秘書長 劉建興秘書長來做報告"},{"start":2002.069,"end":2022.347,"text":"主席各位委員 女士先生大家早安今天很榮幸列席貴委員會來說明考試院115年度預算的編列狀況也藉這個機會感謝各位委員會在歷年來對本院的施政法案跟預算的支持跟指教我們今年度的工作重點可以參閱我們提供的書面資料"},{"start":2023.708,"end":2047.021,"text":"在裡面有一個很重要的事情就是我們在115年度我們全面來實施高普考檢科這項工作其實已經上路一陣子但之前是一部分的調整在今年達到全面的檢科這樣的做是希望把應試科目更能夠聚焦在核心職能也減少應考人的負擔未來包含地方特考等同樣類型的考試也會比較來辦理"},{"start":2048.181,"end":2059.595,"text":"同時在考試業務方面我們電腦化的測驗的範圍也在逐步的文件的擴大實施中我們電子證書的不管是及格證書或者是訓練合格證書的"},{"start":2064.059,"end":2091.166,"text":"這個辦理也都成效良好那同時大家很關心的對部分類科招募人才不容易的問題還有民間一些專業證照的考試的部分我們跟行政院有持續的來進行院計合作跟相關的部會都有成立工作圈來精進我們這個內涵這個包含教考訓用各環節之間的合作那我們也著手來進行我們考試的精進以及強化跟教育端的連結還有宣導"},{"start":2093.326,"end":2120.033,"text":"跟培育那此外今年度還有一個很重要的工作就是大家很關心的考積法的全盤修正那今年在我記得在3月在這個委員會進行業務報告的時候我們聽取很多委員的寶貴建議那回去之後呢我們全序部也廣徵了全國公務人員的意見做了普遍完整的一個調查然後也聽取了公務人員協會的意見之後很審慎的研擬了一個草案在4月22號那一天送到考試院來審議那我們很樂觀的估計"},{"start":2123.174,"end":2145.397,"text":"考計法應該會在這個月會送到立法院來審查那屆時到時候再請各位委員能夠支持指教那考卷今年度的預算相較於去年稅入稅出都做了減少稅入的減少是來自於我們電子證照推行的成效所以大家請領紙本證書減少所以我們少收了證照費但是這個符合政策的目標"},{"start":2146.458,"end":2162.507,"text":"稅出的部分因為我們冰水阻擊汰換工作已經完成加上我們核實去減劣不需要的人事經費所以我們考試院本部這邊較去年減劣了1300萬元減幅達到3.6%讓有限資源用在更有效益的地方"},{"start":2163.027,"end":2184.822,"text":"那未來考試院還會繼續來推動各項業務的革新那讓我們的取材更符合年輕世代的需求跟國家的需要那也讓人事管理制度保障制度能夠與時俱進建構一個友善的職場那來照顧我們的公務同仁神聖的也神聖的提升我們基金的經營績效以上解要報告請不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":2187.793,"end":2195.136,"text":"好 謝謝劉秘書長那接下來請考選部劉孟其劉部長來做報告主席各位委員大家早安城門大院委員對考選業務的支持協助使各項考選業務隊順利推展今日緊究本部114年度業務執行情形115年度工作重點及115年度預算編列情形進行報告"},{"start":2217.144,"end":2225.351,"text":"114年度本部辦理20項次國家考試同時持續精進題庫試題及考試技術並推動國家考試數位轉型措施穩健擴大辦理電腦化測驗114年度新增聽力師及語言治療師考試採行電腦化測驗國家考試宣導部分本部邀請永遠機關共同參與宣導國家考試推動大學國考課程地圖"},{"start":2241.305,"end":2246.87,"text":"以廉潔課程規劃公職考試科目本部114年度稅入決算數793萬3千元稅出決算數6億8412萬6千元考選業務基金114年度總收入決算數5億5497萬7千元"},{"start":2259.1,"end":2271.59,"text":"总支出决算数5亿7944万5千元在115年度工作重点部分预定举办20项次考试截至115年度4月已举办4项次考试完均"},{"start":2272.845,"end":2295.565,"text":"本部也將持續精進測驗技術與試題品質包含執行護理師國家考試試題題物精進計畫辦理調整公務人員升官等考試普通科目研究等委託研究案115年度電容化測驗將新增驗光人員司法官級律師考試第二次護理師第三次考試採取電容化測驗根據推展國考數位轉型又為鼓勵"},{"start":2300.225,"end":2322.364,"text":"今年報考公職考試將與教育部今年發展署等單位合作宣導國家考試並與原住民族委員會及教育部合作培育原住民族公共事務人才此外本部亦將持續辦理國家考試為場及數位多功能考場大樓興建工整及優化國家考場環境設施本部115年度稅入預算編列503萬元稅出預算編列10億392萬2千元"},{"start":2328.369,"end":2340.257,"text":"較114年度預算數增列3億640萬8千元主要系增列國家考試圍場及數位多功能大樓的建設經費考選業務基金部分115年度總收入編列5億8908萬元總支出編列5億8040萬7千元以上報告敬請各位委員繼續給本部支持與指教各項施政重點的詳細內容也請各位委員參閱書面報告 謝謝"},{"start":2356.82,"end":2358.447,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長那接下來請全序部施仁傑部長來做報告"},{"start":2367.891,"end":2388.582,"text":"主席 各位委員大家早接下來部裡面包括115年度本部的主要的這個預算案115年度本部編列396.1億元的預算所以部裡面預算算是大的但是這大裡面大概有390億都是支付給退府基金或者相關的保險"},{"start":2389.002,"end":2414.883,"text":"所以真正部裡面用的大概是9.6億元那9.6億元裡面我們大概有4.6億元是人事費用支撐我們大概300多位同仁的相關的費用那真正剩下的既是非常非常有限大概是1.4億元是本部在使用本部因為是掌理全國的所有公務同仁認審所有的相關資料所以我們有龐大的資安跟資料庫所以我們需要投入更多的相關資訊或者是優化資訊的一個"},{"start":2417.225,"end":2431.941,"text":"一個設備所以這部分大概投入6000萬左右所以剩下的大概為此本部一般行政業務的一個作業那我們一般行政業務作業裡面大概在3月19號本部提出的業務報告特別在我們計畫裡面我們今年主要會推動的是考積法的這個"},{"start":2433.305,"end":2453.052,"text":"全國的修正案剛好秘書長已經報告過這案子已經送到考試院去了那我們考試院如果審查完畢呢就會送到大院來審查進行大院來繼續支持那我想在這過程裡面我們透過網路上一個方式的徵詢全國很多很多的一個意見那我們大致上都有顧慮到不同的一些觀點所以我相信"},{"start":2453.752,"end":2473.943,"text":"我們提出的一個版本應該是考慮相當多元的一個意見所提出接下來本部大概還會就任用法的部分有些任用法相關的議題也會做一些修正我想這是部裡面大概今年因為這個預算我們會配合我們基本的施政所做一些事情本部還主管基金管理局"},{"start":2474.603,"end":2496.371,"text":"我們基金管理局是負責所有公務人員的退伏基金或者是專戶的一個新制專戶人員的一個基金基金管理局今年編了3.1億的預算那其中大概1.8億就是維持的人事費那剩下就是基金管理局需要做很多行政業務包括我們委外經營管理各式各樣的費用我想這些事情都是基金管理局來負責所以"},{"start":2498.833,"end":2509.843,"text":"以上就今年度的這個預算大概本部跟所屬機關所做一個大體上的狀況跟委員會做一個報告進行個人委員會的委員大力支持謝謝謝謝施部長接下來請保訓會主任委員兼國家文官宣院長蔡秀娟蔡院長來做報告"},{"start":2529.406,"end":2557.598,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早本會第一年來各項施政跟預算承蒙大院跟各位委員的支持這邊先表示感謝那以上就本會的這個114年度預算執行情形115年的主要的施政重點跟預期績效以及這個預算編列情形跟大會做簡要的報告那114年度預算執行本會及所屬國家文官學院的預算執行率都高達97%"},{"start":2559.52,"end":2583.161,"text":"那在今年度呢主要施政計畫呢大概有四項第一項呢就是持續的落實這個保障法跟安慰辦法持續來建構一個有安全友善的公部門職場環境主要會做的事情包括了這個今年開始啟動定期的這個抽查作業機制完善職場安全的防護包含了各級主管機關對下級機關的一個實地抽查還有本會對於這個"},{"start":2586.487,"end":2612.81,"text":"101個這個主管機關的一個抽查那此外呢為了更加強化各機關的這個職場安慰跟職場霸凌的防治的這個職能好所以呢繼去年剛法案剛通過我們只能先用這個線上課程跟同仁去到處宣講以外我們今年呢一旦預算通過以後我們就會開始進行這個工作的一個工作坊好的一個進行更加的去強化各機關"},{"start":2614.518,"end":2631.659,"text":"這個職場安慰委員會裡面的這個同仁的一個相關的專業職能那此外呢我們也會建置一個整合型的一個全面的通報系統讓這個申訴人還有這個各機關還有本會還有之後做決策用所需要的一個"},{"start":2632.933,"end":2651.236,"text":"科技化的智慧平台那當然我們本會呢執掌各項的法定訓練包含了這個基訓還有各項升官等訓練中高階文官的一個發展性訓練還有這個今年是大選年特別是行政中立的這個宣導我們會持續的更全面的去做好那"},{"start":2652.335,"end":2678.483,"text":"另外一項我們主要的業務就是有關於這個工人的救濟那我們這個系統已經比較老舊所以呢目前我們已經在簡化整個的一個行政的流程然後呢來加速整個的一個救濟案件的審議此外呢也引進這個已經通過AI的驗證引進這個更友善而且能夠更迅速的來處理這些相關法律案件的這個平台那"},{"start":2679.232,"end":2705.085,"text":"最後有關於本會的預算那今年呢我們的本會的預算呢這個較去年呢新增了6261萬7千元然後呢文官學院的部分呢新增了這個1899萬元這些都主要是為了我們的法定業務還有今年預估呢整個的公務人員的訓練量會變多好那這個是以上跟各位報告那請各位委員繼續給予本會呢大力的支持謝謝"},{"start":2708.86,"end":2738.024,"text":"好 謝謝機關代表已經報告完畢相關的書面內容我們請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請第一位詢答的委員程昭之委員"},{"start":2742.778,"end":2764.976,"text":"謝謝主席有請考試院劉秘書長還有考選部劉部長請劉秘書長還有劉部長兩位早因為主席規定我要慈眉善目但是我在慈眉善目下我還是要堅定的表達我今天想要了解的問題我想請蔣未先看一下這個這段影片20秒左右請放影片我已經兩次請考試"},{"start":2772.061,"end":2788.713,"text":"我都拜託他們題目不要出太難考古題也沒有關係不要考那種專門技術讓更多的年輕人在完成學業之後可以經由我們考試的制度就進入到護理的工程"},{"start":2791.187,"end":2810.084,"text":"兩位首長面對護理師大缺工卓院長公開表示兩度邀請考試院院長跟考選部部長拜託降低護理師考試的難度那我現在就麻煩秘書長跟部長公開向社會大眾說明第一個卓院長說的兩度這個邀請兩度拜託降低難度這是事實嗎"},{"start":2814.346,"end":2836.467,"text":"他公開這樣這是屬實嗎我把這個事情我也想知道每一次見面的時間跟具體談話的內容是什麼簡短的說明我跟他委員報告就是說周院長跟我們考試院的首長們跟行政院院長等有兩次見面兩次見面在什麼場合第一次應該是是到行政院嗎"},{"start":2837.048,"end":2864.715,"text":"第一次是我們去行政院拜會去討論兩院之間的一些合作事項這裡面針對很多業務都有做廣泛意見交換這是大概在周院長剛上任的時候去年啦那有一次是前一陣子是周院長很關心這個整個醫療人力我知道他非常關心護理師所以他有特別請他們同仁安排邀請我們再去跟他討論這件事情"},{"start":2866.395,"end":2888.846,"text":"那部長那考選部會針對護理師的這個考試命題方向進行調整嗎會嗎但是我要澄清一件事就是說其實我們現場討論可能跟那天左院長他可能過於比較簡單的表達是不太一樣左院長他其實是很關心說因為他有表示說我了解他出於善意但是我想請教你就是說你會進行調整嗎這個命題方向"},{"start":2892.229,"end":2905.784,"text":"文貴給我半分鐘講講一段這個過程那他就是因為那天他是表示說他有聽到外面的一些意見所以認為說我們在考試有的時候考題會比較艱澀冷僻那甚至考的這個"},{"start":2908.047,"end":2924.487,"text":"超過護理師的這個核心職能的範圍那所以我們向左院長說明這件事情呢這個意見我們也有聽過那事實上兩院之間我們考選部跟衛福部在針對護理師考試的這個處理已經有一段時間了"},{"start":2925.188,"end":2939.524,"text":"那我們也跟也請那個護理師學會來協助幫我們檢視考題那怎麼樣能夠對準這個初任護理師的核心職能不要過於監測冷批等等的制度其實都有在進行中你會做調整"},{"start":2940.325,"end":2945.187,"text":"我們其實是基於行政院長的指令嗎不是當然不是我們是跟左院長說我們已經有跟衛福部在討論這件事而且已經請了護理師學會來幫我們檢視這些考題秘書長跟部長因為根據憲法這個政修條例第一項考試院是國家最高考試機關主要國家考試秘書長考試院是獨立行使職權還是接受行政院指揮呢我們當然是獨立行使"},{"start":2969.574,"end":2989.103,"text":"那如果是獨立行駛假設我假設說左院長做出不太不盡合理的請託那你們會不會提出正式的意見或表達異議呢所以我就跟您報告我們那天的過程就是這樣當他表達他轉達了他所聽到這樣的一個狀況的時候我們跟他說明其實這些事情我們跟衛福部已經有在進行相關的討論那也請專業的護理師學會來幫協助我們檢視考題"},{"start":2995.106,"end":3013.212,"text":"其實我們認為雖然是基於善意我們可以了解但左院長這個行為其實他直接指出他對公開這樣指出其實算不算毀憲亂政呢根據執政黨標準這是毀憲亂政喔如果不是左院長自己爆料我們都還不知道有這麼離譜的事因為他直接表達說他請考試院"},{"start":3015.433,"end":3032.961,"text":"我覺得行政院跟考試院多溝通這件事情是這幾年來考試院比較大的轉變那我再請問你一個問題為什麼可能是秘書長卓院長自己都爆料五天那考試院都沒有任何回應也看不到一篇像社會大眾公開說明的新聞稿你覺得這件事不需要回應嗎"},{"start":3034.681,"end":3048.449,"text":"其實我看護理界都也都了解這幾年考選部的作為我的重點是說在目前在目前執政黨在目前我們還是憲法上五權分立的情況下儘管執政就這樣過去是說要三權分立那基本上我們在遵守這個憲法這個權力分立原則嘛大家是平行的就是說考試院是獨立的來做這件事情不能你不能因為行政院長的指令或一句話"},{"start":3062.938,"end":3086.247,"text":"你們就做了修正啊我看左院長的講法也不是說他下了一個指令啦左院長有說他拜託或怎麼樣那其實他反映意見給我們如果他有這個意見他其實應該請你們過去啊我的意思是這樣證明考試院是一個獨立的機關嘛所以這就是為什麼他請我們去了解這個狀況我知道您今天非常小心在回答這個問題我只是在表示因為那兩次我都在場啦"},{"start":3086.547,"end":3106.966,"text":"我即便相信他對處於護理師的善意但是他不知道他這個做法其實是違反這個違憲亂政啊習慣說我們這樣啊那你要讓學生法律學員或社會大眾會覺得這個行政院是獨大的他可以管理所有其他的院兩次見面都是兩位院長都在所以其實是平等的溝通台灣是五權分立so far是五權分立所以才會變兩個院長在互相溝通跟相關部會一起"},{"start":3110.169,"end":3126.073,"text":"看看兩位哪位會回來 護理師大缺工之外 大家都知道現在我要說書記官也是上演大逃亡啦新北地院開出了71個缺額 但是只有兩個人報到那我們了解一下書記官的工會 工會理事長的分析 剛輝理事長的分析他說書記官缺額這個是結構性的問題那原因包括考試科目跟思慮的高度重疊 還有他時間比較早"},{"start":3135.456,"end":3151.107,"text":"所以導致書記官的考試常常被當作練筆的這個考場那考上也不報到啊當然另外這個我們發現案件都集中在北部也代表說北部的生活條件比較高然後薪資的競爭力又不夠那當然找不到人所以我現在要請教考選部你師父有意識到這個書記官的考試常常被當成練筆的考場的問題因為這個所以他們有一些建議我想你們知道這件事嗎"},{"start":3166.117,"end":3173.021,"text":"這個是可以去查到的資料把它當作練筆的考場但是考上了也不見得要報到"},{"start":3174.827,"end":3187.037,"text":"你們知道這件事嗎跟委員報告就是所謂的他兩個考試期間比較近但是這個問題是說如果事實上是他很缺嘛我這個時間有些說這是個事實所以這個工會他們有提出這個建議希望同日舉行但是科目要明確區隔來解決這個練筆的問題那請問你們有沒有考慮過這個做法當然我知道書記官缺工最主要負責責任是司法院"},{"start":3202.701,"end":3206.782,"text":"但是考選部在規劃各種的考試科目時也應該要跨部會的諮詢嘛確保這個科目的那個設計要能夠真正反映職場的職務上的需求那這樣才能有效篩選到願意留任的人嘛不能讓考試變成這個練筆所以這個請問這個工會他們的提出意見你們有考慮嗎同日舉行然後科目區別很清楚能夠真正找出願意擔任書記官的人選"},{"start":3232.659,"end":3247.534,"text":"你們有考慮這個方向嗎?公園報告這必須跟優能機關進行協商那同時也必須跟學校還有專業團體那你們有考慮這個方向嗎?出機關大逃亡是事實啊就是說你們有在考慮這個方向嗎?公園報告我們再跟優能機關來進行討論"},{"start":3249.096,"end":3253.678,"text":"你們在進行這個方案 這一定是用人機關 這要由用人機關來決定好 那最後謝謝兩位我現在請選區部施部長 麻煩施部長那我一邊說好了 因為時間有限那部長 台中市交通局前處長張應當從2021年起 性騷至少六名女同事"},{"start":3272.426,"end":3276.288,"text":"還長期霸凌那市府認定是性騷成立把他記了兩大過免職取消退休金但問題是台東市政府只有免職他沒有送懲戒所以讓他還能夠再來再去考公務員他第二年就重考就跑到交通部跑到中央部會去了免資重算但他對被害人這個態度整個翻轉了"},{"start":3293.618,"end":3297.379,"text":"他只願意賠錢不願意道歉最後協商破局一直到監察院一直到監察院彈劾了把他送交懲戒法院才擋下他的退休金這是一個事實市部長公務員免職我們知道是分兩種一個是考經免職一個是懲戒免職考經免職還是可以到其他的機關去當公務員但懲戒免職就不能夠再當公務員"},{"start":3316.184,"end":3322.746,"text":"那這個案子台中市政府是伎倆大過考積免職而且沒有移送這個懲戒所以這位姓邵處長他鑽漏洞回鍋當公務員那如果不是監察院出手他現在還是繼續當公務員可以爽領退休金請問部長這個漏洞要不要解決您覺得要不要規範"},{"start":3335.851,"end":3360.009,"text":"特定樣態的考機免職 例如性騷例如霸凌 應該要強制移送這個懲戒這是第一個 等一下請你回答第二個 在懲戒裁定之前要停止報考國家考試資格 為什麼呢這個部長 能力跟這個品性是兩件事啊他品性不好 他也許能力很好他再度考 考上了就要分發公職啊所以就剛剛我提出的兩點 麻煩這個部長回應"},{"start":3365.59,"end":3394.304,"text":"報告說我們這次修了考積法其實就規定說任何被免職的同仁一定時間裡面不可以再任用我們補了這個洞啦現行是沒有啦一定時間表示他可以再回來嘛對 這個是一個比例原則的一個議題啦那至於說委員提到說如果特定的室友特定樣態是不是要終身不能擔任公務人員我想這個是這還是涉及人民的各式各樣扶公子的權利我們會更謹慎來討論但是我現在提到的是性騷跟霸凌耶"},{"start":3394.864,"end":3407.227,"text":"對 我知道委員講的就是特定的行為啦您講的是專門特定那我們現在先做的是廣泛只要是被免職那就大概一定時間裡面就停止就不可以再任用當公務人員啦"},{"start":3407.93,"end":3417.297,"text":"博定你沒有朝這個方向做嗎總是有一些狀況這個事情我們可以再來做討論那一年不行兩年就回來我們可以再回來因為再回來他還是要經過考試因為他還是需要重新做考試我的重點就是經過懲戒之後他就不能再考公務員不能再回去我們送到懲戒法院去懲戒法院不見得一定會做出所以我在說在裁定之前那你可不可以覺得在裁定之前可以先停止讓他去考國家的這個考試可以嗎"},{"start":3437.312,"end":3456.608,"text":"這個是涉及整個考選的一個政策你可以修法你可以改變啊那是考選部負責的一個考試法他明明就是性騷啊明明就是霸凌啊然後現在讓他第二年就回去考而且越考越高他有能力考啊他品性不喜歡的有能力考啊那你就眼睜睜的看著這件事發生嗎"},{"start":3457.902,"end":3473.485,"text":"我想問這個限制任何的國民來考應考這個是一個憲法的議題大家可以多做討論現在很多包括我們很多其他法院就涉及這個部分所以這是立法政策我現在也在努力婦產科醫師性騷性侵還可以再回去當婦產科醫師嗎你女兒讓他看嗎對不對所以我在提特定的樣態對我知道委員的意思那你要不要考慮說暫停他的考試資格因為我們可以繼續來討論這個事情暫停考試資格嘛不然他馬上就回去了"},{"start":3486.768,"end":3500.825,"text":"而且他馬上對那個受害人 馬上翻臉啊他繼續考 他官越大越大 他會到中央部會 他可以繼續爽領退休金啊這不公平嘛 保定請你考慮一下嗎 可以嗎我想這個事情是一個大家可以一起來繼續討論的一個議題啦"},{"start":3504.048,"end":3526.869,"text":"我沒有排除啦 只是說這個是社會要有更多的共識因為我們很多犯罪的類型我們就是也是保護公務員啊 就是公務員這個部分部長您今天不能答應我 您要回去討論這個部分這個是涉及到憲法一個層次的議題 還有比例原則的議題所以我就說這個社會上可以再多做討論啦"},{"start":3529.553,"end":3546.686,"text":"這件事不用拉高到憲法啦這個就是我想全國人民都會接受啦涉及這兩個類似這樣的案件的人你再讓他能夠很快的就回去考試第二年就又回來了那其他受害人怎麼辦職場怎麼辦大家噤聲好的人都跑掉了就是讓這個壞人留下來繼續當官不對嘛"},{"start":3551.066,"end":3557.289,"text":"部長那我請你慎重考慮我未來會繼續追蹤這個問題限制考試這個事情是考選部的職責不是選區部的職責但是就是考機我剛剛講嘛免職的免職的免職考機跟免職這個部分我們繼續來做討論免職懲戒嘛我知道謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":3575.466,"end":3581.568,"text":"謝謝陳昭芝委員 來這次美三部會所料的專業美麗的翁曉琳委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席在這邊有請秘書長還有施部長劉秘書長還有施部長秘書長還有部長早安"},{"start":3602.381,"end":3624.407,"text":"我首先想要問一個就是現在公共教育人員很關心的一個問題尤其是我最近也收到了蠻多公務人員來函反應就是近期人事總署他有發一個函然後要再針對公務人員又再實施這個忠誠度查核也就是要求公務人員必須要簽這個沒有"},{"start":3627.568,"end":3650.362,"text":"領有這個中國大陸的身份證護照後沒有戶籍等等的這個切結書那我想在去年其實大家普遍都有針對這個問題去做過討論那當時的說法就是說這是陸委會他基於他的兩岸政策那各個機關不管是教育部權序部或是人事總處那這裡的話也尊重他們的政策但是呢"},{"start":3651.303,"end":3661.511,"text":"函這個只是一個類似像行政指導它不會連結到後續有什麼樣的法律效果那最近呢人事總署呢竟然在新發的函裡面呢就說如果說未來公教人員沒有完成拒絕在大陸的涉及領有中共身份證定居證護照者就不得禁用或者是調任那就這個部分來說本席想請教的就是事實上在我們現在公共人員利用法裡面"},{"start":3680.785,"end":3686.594,"text":"有哪個規定是說因為沒有這個拒絕所以就不能夠任用或調人嗎有這樣的規定嗎報告我們在28條裡面其實是有類似的一個規定啦"},{"start":3697.042,"end":3717.321,"text":"二十八條什麼規定我們第一項第十款有其他法令如果有規定的話請問是哪個法令規定那個就是兩岸人民國際條例裡面它是什麼規定他說如果你在中國大陸有領有戶籍或者是護照"},{"start":3717.961,"end":3721.264,"text":"是 所以是這兩項嘛 對不對如果說有戶籍或者是有護照那當然依法就不得這個任用或調任是 那這個部分的話是很清楚的本席也認為這個法律規定其實這個政府機關要去執行但是呢 也很重要它是必須要在任用之前要進行調查對不對 任用之前要進行調查嘛"},{"start":3742.881,"end":3750.603,"text":"那麼如果說任用之後有發現有這樣的問題的話行政機關也應該要依法這個去去"},{"start":3752.432,"end":3779.111,"text":"去檢視是不是有這樣的違規行為然後該撤銷公務員的資格或是該做怎麼樣處理那就有另外依照工人運用法或是其他考記法裡面來做相關的規範可是現在人事總署做的這樣的一個發函事實上難道不會有問題嗎再看一下他說未完成拒絕是不得禁用或調任"},{"start":3781.499,"end":3808.592,"text":"從學習部的立場出考試院的立場是不是應該要出來幫我們公務人員說句話啊可以因為說他沒有拒絕然後所以就不准許這個禁用或調任嗎這基本上沒有道理的我跟委員報告因為我們現在對於所謂中美國籍以外的其他國籍的或者相關一些一些查證都是用拒絕的方式包括其他美國籍也是一樣都是公務人員拒絕"},{"start":3809.89,"end":3824.21,"text":"因為這是行政上的一個方式其實拒絕它沒有什麼法律效力的如果說今天我們政府機關把所有的公教人員都推定為你們沒有拒絕所以你們就忠誠度有問題"},{"start":3825.632,"end":3850.541,"text":"就可能就是共諜 可以做這樣的一個推斷 推定嗎更何況它不應該連結到不利的法律效果啊 這是一個很嚴重的問題所以我就說這程序要求也必須要符合法律的規定我們法律有哪一個規定說必須要求所有的公教人員都要簽拒絕沒有拒絕的話 然後之後就有一些不利的法律效果"},{"start":3852.347,"end":3873.923,"text":"這要遵守 我們就不要違反法律保留原則現在民進黨政府最大的問題就是用行政命令來取代法律這已經嚴重的損害到公教人員的權益而且更嚴重的是打擊公教人員的士氣相當程度的也污蔑了公教人員的尊嚴"},{"start":3876.874,"end":3898.335,"text":"本席認為說詮釋部應該要跟人事總書或是跟陸委會你們要嚴正的反應這樣的一個立場今天我們不是講說認為說是公教人員如果說他在大陸到底真的有護照你有身份證或者是有戶籍該依兩岸人民關係條例去處理本席贊成"},{"start":3899.52,"end":3921.798,"text":"但是這個重要的是機關你要依法去行使職權 你要去調查 去了解如果有收到警舉的時候一定要去調查 這個是本席是完全贊同但是你不能講說現在把所有的人都推定為你們就都是有問題 所以自己要簽個拒絕書簽個拒絕書說代表我沒有違法 我沒有犯罪"},{"start":3923.988,"end":3950.688,"text":"所以這個擴大解釋的話是不是以後每個中華民國的國民我們都要簽這個竊竊書更何況我們在法律上面很清楚知道竊竊是沒有什麼法律效力的那本席在這邊是希望就是考試院能夠站在就是維護公教人員權益的這個基礎上面應該要跟行政院那邊好好去講溝通這件事情"},{"start":3952.667,"end":3965.901,"text":"現在已經很多人都不想來當公務員了覺得說公務人員受限很多而且接下來我們再來談另外一個問題就是這個調薪水的問題大家知道最近不僅是書記官這個"},{"start":3968.524,"end":3980.429,"text":"就算是考上了也不想來擔任書記官然後護理師也離開很多我們看到我們現在是過去大家都說公務教人員是鐵飯碗但現在鐵飯碗崩壞中公務員的離巢擴大"},{"start":3984.724,"end":3998.116,"text":"那大家都認為說很重要的原因第一個是公務人員現在工作沒有尊嚴然後政府很多的措施這是三管五令的三生五令的然後讓大家覺得很沒有"},{"start":3999.687,"end":4021.769,"text":"很沒有尊嚴的在做公務員的這份工作還有另外一個重要的情況就是薪水偏低請教這應該也是全序部還是教授秘書長可以講我們公教人員的薪資縫級表有多少年沒有調整了我們這個縫點"},{"start":4023.09,"end":4032.366,"text":"我跟委員報告這個應該這樣講這個表本身是很久就沒有去動它因為設計在法律裡面但是每一個縫點折合率每一次調薪就跟著調"},{"start":4033.376,"end":4038.339,"text":"請問這個折合率的調整到底是誰有權可以去來做這個調整是有人事總署還是全序部這次有人事總署他每年在做調薪的時候他就會調整那調薪過程裡面當然會所以全序部從來都沒有去反映過說現在的這個折合率可能有不盡合理的地方因為他並不是代表一點等於一元嘛而且他還分不同的等級然後還有不同的折算率"},{"start":4062.572,"end":4078.378,"text":"對 但是整體而言 剛剛部長也說現在的這個十四指等的這個指等跟縫級 縫點表 縫級表已經很多年沒有調整了 對不對從大概民共五十幾年制定到現在 超過六十年了可能都沒有調整"},{"start":4080.083,"end":4103.722,"text":"全區部從來沒有想到過這份諷刑表是不是有不合時宜的地方應該要進行調整部裡面一向也有討論過諷表要不要調整這個事情我印象中在大概是前一屆的時候也曾經有討論過但是每次在調諷表那個真的是知識體大一個事情所以各式各樣看法但是確實我是跟委員報告說確實都有在注意這個議題那實際上的作業就"},{"start":4109.086,"end":4135.519,"text":"通常是透過那個奉典折扣率呢來實際上因為大家拿錢實際上是奉典折扣率啦這樣一個方式但是我原來意思我知道今天我要講的事情就是說現在人是現在行政院又說我們接下來可能要進行公教人員的調薪公教人員固然這些年來是有調薪可是呢他調薪的整個加起來的那個調薪的比率是根本抵不過通膨啊"},{"start":4137.144,"end":4154.131,"text":"而且常常他調薪他不是去調了本縫因為這本縫可能會涉及到退休金的問題所以行政院很奸詐他不調本縫他去調什麼專業家級我當過委員市長這個我必須要誓死成親調薪的時候一定是本縫跟專業家級一起調公務人員有的時候公務人員不見得是一起都調教育人員的話常常都只有調的是專業家級沒有本縫一定有調"},{"start":4166.201,"end":4186.15,"text":"調的比例也是幅度也是一樣的比例所以我要講就是說是你很重要就說是考試院應該要去檢討這個縫級表對本席是不是可以要求你們在這個會期這一年這一屆好這個會期結束之前你們至少要提一個修法案吧"},{"start":4187.622,"end":4210.047,"text":"我可以給委員一個報告 其他國家到底是怎樣去看待薪水的這件事情否則的話我覺得公務人員長期以來尤其是這20年來我們的薪水一直普遍在整個社會上面是越來越偏向中下階級的薪水未來優秀人才不會進到公務體系來工作的"},{"start":4211.167,"end":4234.798,"text":"我跟委員抱歉 這個縫隙表到底要不要調整我部裡面答應說我們會就這個部分給一些可能討論的想法但是我沒有辦法說一定得要什麼時間送出來那就麻煩市委部長你三個月之內給我一份報告後面我跟委員最後提供一個事實的資料我們現在所有的公務人員不包括警察平均的年所得大概是一百零四萬"},{"start":4236.158,"end":4249.982,"text":"跟上市公司一半我要跟委員報告說如果你跟台灣上市公司大概一半左右的上市公司差不多平均所得也不見得到一百萬我只是在講說金水高不高我們可以再繼續來討論平均所得一百零四萬很高嗎我前兩天還跟我這個清大營救所畢業的學生會講他們去台積電比"},{"start":4259.525,"end":4266.71,"text":"不要說跟台積電跟現在普遍科技公司裡面年薪就將近300萬你說像這樣子優秀的人才他未來會到我們政府部門嗎他會到速發部嗎他會到其他的國科會裡面去服務嗎不會 國外的薪水很高同樣的問題現在我們的"},{"start":4281.362,"end":4306.125,"text":"這個公務體系的薪資普遍已經偏低了跟自己台灣內部比就偏低更不要說跟其他國家比我們現在某些領域的薪資確實是不如民間企業但是平均來講是沒有問題就討論到這邊那接下來我想問的是有關於顏慧心的霸凌案是不是可以請保訊會主委那就可以請部長先回座 謝謝"},{"start":4316.22,"end":4343.755,"text":"委員好我們知道其實這個公務人員保障法在去年6月3度通過然後才修正了增加第19條之一19條之二的這個規定目的就是要強化職場霸凌的防治與保護的機制可是看起來這個法案修正之後並沒有好像很明顯的效果尤其是針對高階的文官或者是政務人員當他們受到職場霸凌的時候"},{"start":4345.035,"end":4372.202,"text":"這個條文似乎沒有辦法起到什麼作用那麼當然我們很遺憾的就是看到在經貿談判代表副總代表顏慧欣的過世那在她過世之前曾經有遞了一個辭職信給卓院長給卓榮泰可是卓榮泰看到這封辭職信似乎沒有任何的作為所以三月多的時候顏慧欣過世發生了這樣的憾事那麼所以請問主委就是說如果依照公務人員保障法第十九條之一的規定"},{"start":4373.943,"end":4386.383,"text":"長官他知道了這些事情但是他沒有處理依法應該怎麼做跟委員報告就是說如果他知悉但是他沒有處理的話就光這個部分那他可以罰這個"},{"start":4388.724,"end":4414.071,"text":"機關首長或者是就是那個應負責的人大概是三萬到一百五十萬那如果後續如果造成其他的比如說有更嚴重的一些問題那不只是這個是屬於行政法那我們目前保障法裡面也包含了懲戒然後行政懲處就是考積法的部分然後還有刑務法是那麼所以呢以顏慧欣這個案子來講行政院院長是不是這個機關的負責人應負責人"},{"start":4417.991,"end":4427.206,"text":"就法律的定義他是機關的應負責人沒有錯所以那他知悉了吧他2月19號就知悉了可是他當時並沒有啟動任何的處置"},{"start":4428.727,"end":4456.255,"text":"跟委員報告因為他這個我們能看到的就是從媒體上面他有收到這個顏女士她的一個給卓院長的個人的一些訊息卓院長當時都已經說了他的確是在過年的期間他有收到這封辭職信所以他當時就已經很清楚知道裡面的確有這樣的一個問題可是他卻沒有做處理是所以我本身要問的就是說那保訊會現在對於顏慧心的案子你沒有再進行調查嗎"},{"start":4457.765,"end":4478.852,"text":"跟委員報告 依據我們的相關辦法在這個案子的見報以後 在第一時間因為這個是由機關 他已經知悉了所以行政院就已經啟動這個調查那目前呢 他們就我們所知道 他們已經開了四次的調查會議那我們保訊會呢"},{"start":4480.305,"end":4509.316,"text":"在第一時間先用電話同時我們也發函告訴行政院你正確的後續的相關做法應該是要尋哪些哪些的程序對那因為這個行政院目前正在進行調查中所以你們現在只是告知他們有相關的後續的這個調查程序要怎麼去進行那麼但是對於就是很清楚的卓榮泰他是不是在第一時間裡面他窒息這個事情但是他沒有積極的作為你們對於這個案子有沒有做調查"},{"start":4510.516,"end":4531.929,"text":"跟委員報告這是兩個不同的案子這是顏慧欣被霸凌的案子另外一個是卓榮泰他作為行政院機關的負責人他有沒有依法去做適當的處理如果說沒有依法做適當處理的話他就要受罰啊是跟委員報告您說的沒有錯這是兩件不同的事情那有關於這個您剛剛提到這個機關首長他"},{"start":4533.672,"end":4559.717,"text":"是不是有這個知悉然後他沒有採取立即或者是應該有的有效措施那我們會等整個機關調查報告回來那調查小組會把他們所釐清的包含首長或是相關的人有沒有責任那會送到保訓會來那請問一下行政院什麼時候會把調查報告做好你們給他多少的時間跟委員報告他如果兩年都不做就是說他就像現在行政院他不附屬法律啊他就一直擺爛啊"},{"start":4560.777,"end":4578.262,"text":"然後調查報告拖個這個兩年等到下一屆我當然我不知道現在卓榮泰能不能這個5月20號之後繼續續任啦他有可能一直拖一直拖我們沒有明確期限什麼時候出來我們的這個保障法跟這個安全衛生的這個安慰辦法裡面呢對於這個機關開始收受了這個"},{"start":4584.082,"end":4612.045,"text":"決定開始進行調查我們有很明確的規定他第一次開會以後呢兩個月內要完成但是因為有些案情他很複雜譬如說他可能涉及到多人或者是他的場域很複雜所以我們最多可以讓他再假一個月所以他不可能會拖到什麼幾年或到不處理所以三個月之內應該叫做完最晚最晚三個月內所以從三月份開始嘛我們可以預期期待六月中可以看到這份報告嗎"},{"start":4615.253,"end":4627.58,"text":"依法理應當是在他們開完就第一次會議之後應該是這個那因為具體他們什麼時候開始他們327就開始進行調查了第一次的這個"},{"start":4629.099,"end":4648.686,"text":"調查小組已經開始開會所以依委員您的這樣推算基本上最晚最晚 至少七月吧七月初應該是會有調查報告出來好我希望主委您這件事情要無妄誤眾不要因為說這個長官是卓榮泰所以呢對這個案子呢就特別的"},{"start":4651.567,"end":4665.695,"text":"放縱 那麼希望這個事情一定要調查的雪落石出我們希望能夠還給顏慧欣副總代表一個公平的對待 好嗎好 是 謝謝委員好的 謝謝謝謝翁小玲委員那接下來請張雅玲委員來做選檔"},{"start":4675.077,"end":4676.998,"text":"謝謝主席 好 那我們邀請秘書長跟全序 先全序部 施部長抱歉請施部長"},{"start":4695.678,"end":4697.079,"text":"瑞典考察公部門友善職場環境報告"},{"start":4714.995,"end":4734.04,"text":"對對對對對那就是說我相信你們應該也非常關注到就是說公務人員不是只有上班服從或者是考機這些績效等等他其實有很大的有蠻多的公務員其實也都是一個家長他其實有考量到他需要育兒他會很辛苦我今天早上才剛開了一個記者會就是把家長還給"},{"start":4735.14,"end":4754.274,"text":"孩子啦不要再讓那個家長在工作和孩子之間二選一啦所以今天這個題目呢其實也是想要剛好看到你們也去瑞典考察想要就這個制度上面來跟你們討論一下是不是有一些我們在公務員的上班方式可以有一些精進的做法"},{"start":4756.004,"end":4772.944,"text":"那我想市部長一定認同啦政府就是公務員的雇主所以應該會想辦法來支持我們這些公務人員嘛那我想就是說這份報告裡面我就不重分贅述了但是它的重點其實就是說他們的公部門的友善職場呢其實裡面有包含了育兒假"},{"start":4774.425,"end":4792.693,"text":"部分工時彈性工時遠距辦公以及公務人員在育兒與家庭照顧需求之下如何透過制度來支持他的工作以及他的生活所以在瑞典他們的育兒假可以用日可以用週會用小時來彈性使用而且可以延伸到12歲"},{"start":4794.393,"end":4815.62,"text":"那這件事情呢我今年去澳洲的時候呢我也跟他們討論了一下有關於公務員上班的制度那他們現在也是可以彈性的去有工時的調整而且呢他們可能在我那時候我去五點吧我五點去超市因為他們那個坎培拉是他們大多數公務員住的地方那我去他們市區的一個超市"},{"start":4816.76,"end":4837.216,"text":"欸 才五點了已經很多人在買菜了所以那時候我就問了一下跟我一起去的這個澳洲的公務員我就說你們這個是正常的嗎因為才五點我們可能很難想像五點大家都已經在買菜了那這一點我想問一下就是說不曉得部長您看完這一份考察報告之後您自己的想法是什麼"},{"start":4839.137,"end":4867.245,"text":"我這同仁去啦但是我有認真看過那其實我覺得以台灣可行其中最可行的之一就是真的是彈性工時這個是最可以積極推動的因為我們現在的服務法本身就允許機關根據你的需要做彈性工時我舉個例子我們部裡面四點半以後就有同仁可以下班了因為我們可以很早的彈性工時我在美國去的時候有人我看到他們兩點鐘以後就下班了"},{"start":4868.725,"end":4893.676,"text":"對所以我們希望的其實不是只有全序部嘛因為你剛剛說的是你們部裡面嘛那就是說我們因為這個還是希望可以去推廣到更多的單位都可以享用因為其實就是有其他的單位來跟我們講說他們其實因為他想要他跟他先生兩個人都是公務員他想要早一點上班那他就可以早點下班去接小孩嘛這樣他跟他老公就可以做一些調整可是因為他的用人單位不允許他做這個工作時間的移動"},{"start":4895.016,"end":4916.029,"text":"對 所以這就會造成說 也許選區部做得很好 可是其他部會沒有得到這個樣子的一個支持所以可以怎麼做這確實是存在啦 那就部裡面立場來講 我們只能說有制度 已經法規制度在那邊了 可是機關真的還要尊重機關的判斷因為他們有些工作狀況不是我們完全能理解 不過我覺得 我相信"},{"start":4916.889,"end":4935.227,"text":"以台灣的這個工作狀況來講而且新進的同仁越來越多一個狀況下我覺得這會是一個趨勢啦我們過去在彈性工時用的比較多只有因為拿來做這裡面您講的這個為了應應COVID-19其實COVID-19完以後大家又慢慢回復原來的上班生"},{"start":4936.508,"end":4958.319,"text":"我個人會呼籲真的機關裡面應該好好善用彈性工時來作為友善職場的一個獻請法律給你的工具那我想問一下你們彈性工時先是到幾歲呢我們彈性工時基本上是以同仁的一個申請為主並不是說以幾歲就是說幾歲之前的"},{"start":4959.855,"end":4976.113,"text":"我們是所有的同仁都可以談刑公司啊我是說小孩幾歲之前才可以申請談刑公司還是沒有沒有限制所以他今天小孩十歲十二歲都可以申請我想問一下接下來就是我們的遠距工作的部分呢"},{"start":4977.234,"end":4995.768,"text":"遠距工作的部分到底可不可行因為其實這個混合辦公不僅是在這次瑞典的報告也有嘛那澳洲也有那其實過去我們在中央剛剛你有提到在COVID-19的期間其實大家有做這樣子的一個工作的調整那是不是有可能也在這個方面來做一些跟公務員們討論往這個方向前進應該這樣講遠距跟彈性工時當然對機關的衝擊就真的完全不一樣因為"},{"start":5006.215,"end":5023.033,"text":"各自要付出的這個行政成本都不一樣啦所以我一直講說彈性工只是比較可以實施在台灣可以嘛實施的可能性大可是遠距工遠距上班這個事情還是回到機關啦這個真的因為如果遠距上班我想包括"},{"start":5023.513,"end":5039.162,"text":"他怎麼樣上班的工具文因為我們都是這種文書處理要公文怎麼傳送各式各樣很複雜一些議題啦這個部分跟民間企業確實真的比較不一樣那我知道有些機關嘗試有一些遠距上班但是真的相對來講比較不普遍"},{"start":5040.467,"end":5055.558,"text":"我想就是說 是不是可以 我先做 因為這一題也我就先做兩個要求啦 來聽聽看部長的看法 就是說因為其實我們現在就是希望更多人可以來支持讓家長可以跟孩子建立很好的一個親密關係跟依附關係嘛"},{"start":5057.279,"end":5069.884,"text":"所以是不是可以來會同我們的人事總署來盤點中央機關跟地方政府中真的有來執行這個彈性工時的或是部分工時的或是減少工時的我們是不是可以來做這樣子的盤點"},{"start":5071.776,"end":5089.75,"text":"這部分是可以的嗎我想盤點應該可以 只是要給我們時間我想我也知道這個我了解我了解這盤點大概是多少的時間我們可以量我現在真的沒有辦法跟您說一個確定是但是我們 我跟總書來討論一下好 我們答應做盤點但是盤點完了以後一定會給報告但是是不是時間上給我們有一些"},{"start":5091.031,"end":5109.585,"text":"討論的空間就是部長大概什麼時候可以回覆我你們需要多少時間這樣吧一個禮拜也許大概一兩個禮拜以後我跟委員報告因為我要跟人事總署你們討論一下嘛好不好然後再來就是說是不是說因為其實有一些公務人員他們在申請可能剛剛講的這個彈性工時會遇到一些困擾"},{"start":5110.365,"end":5131.866,"text":"有可能其實是因為他的同事要承接他的工作所以這就會造成部門主管在做這個判斷上面的確就會覺得考量到這個平衡上就不會願意去讓他可以這樣請所以是不是說我們也可以來研議職務代理還有業務分擔以及加級補償的一個機制呢我們是不是也可以來研議這樣子的機制"},{"start":5134.542,"end":5156.974,"text":"植物代理本身除非我再想是說相對來講應該是除非那是很緊急的事情要有植物代理要不然應該是如果短暫的應該還好但是加擠這個部分包圍這個真的要總處來負責但是因為我們講的就是說因為他彈性工時因為有些人剛剛講那個案例就是說他可能都希望他的時間是這樣子去做工作的所以這種狀況可能其實還是存在的就是他不會只是臨時的"},{"start":5158.095,"end":5175.553,"text":"一天需要來做這個對 那個就機關要提早做安排啦人力要做調配啦好 沒關係這個部分的話我們就等你盤點出來之後我們針對這個盤點的結果我們先了解狀況好不好好 了解沒問題那我想再問一個問題就是說之前考試院周鴻憲院長考試院 抱歉"},{"start":5180.058,"end":5197.533,"text":"有提到說他們已經提出這個公務人員協會法的修正草案希望來修法強化公務人員的結社權跟協商權因為剛剛其實我們講的這些案例就是說部門主管他可能就做了這樣子的決斷可是公務員其實很難來去跟我們的主管們"},{"start":5198.374,"end":5228.134,"text":"部會們做更多的溝通因為這個權力上面有一個非常大的落差所以才會希望可以保障他們的結社權跟協商權然後來討論他們的職業安全工作條件霸凌防制輪班勤務人力配置等等的所以我想要了解就是說目前這個草案好像是已經在本委員會一讀待審對不對那您認為就是這一次的公務員協商會修法能不能去回應基層希望可以組公會的這個核心訴求呢"},{"start":5229.714,"end":5243.019,"text":"我們這次的修法一個方向其實就是讓他的結社權變得更容易一點譬如說我們警消同仁認為說他們都依附在縣市政府或者是內政部之下但是我們現在有特種協會的設計他們可以組特種的協會另外一方面對於協商範圍也做了相對幅度的放鬆"},{"start":5251.041,"end":5258.7,"text":"等等所以基本上都是往比較鬆綁希望更容易來處理那我想問一下就簡單直接問好了那哪些事情是不能協商的好了"},{"start":5260.25,"end":5281.867,"text":"最後請部長說明一下我們現在只有規定 明文規定不可以提出協商一個是法例已經有明文規定就不能協商嘛第二個是如果這個案子本來已經是提起訴願或者申訴當然是不可以協商第三個事情是足以影響國防跟公共安全的狀況才不能協商那基本上是這些狀況不能協商"},{"start":5282.864,"end":5300.233,"text":"OK 好了解 那這個這個我們會再跟協會我們會再跟公務員們討論啦看看大家還有沒有一些想法那我們也會再持續跟兩位保持交流那最後一個問題齁其實我想要問有關於職能治療師公會的問題那就麻煩考選部 謝謝"},{"start":5302.247,"end":5324.412,"text":"好 我快快的問一下 就是說去年11月的時候 職能治療施工會他有跟我們反映希望國家考試能夠新增相關研究所碩士畢業生的營考資格那這個之前其實我也在幾個月之前就有跟考選部反映了希望可以讓這些具備職能治療專業的人才有機會可以透過國家考試進入專業體系所以我想要了解就是說在不降低專業門檻的前提之下"},{"start":5326.472,"end":5351.963,"text":"讓具有經驗的人有明確的應考資格目前收集的意見如何呢然後大概是否能夠在明年2月以前完成相關的修正呢跟委員報告那我們已經發函給衛福部教育部然後還有那個全聯會還有11個系所那目前是說狀態是回來了已經回來禮拜但是我們還在等最重要的衛福部的意見那我們已經去催了趕快把衛福部的意見跟那個"},{"start":5353.884,"end":5367.572,"text":"大概還有六個係所收回來我們會先邀請他們開一個會議因為畢竟這個最後還是必須尊重還是比較尊重衛福部的意見目前我們收到的意見有反對的嗎"},{"start":5369.045,"end":5398.386,"text":"基本上沒有基本上是沒有所以大家都是支持的應該是無意見跟同意居多不過我們還要等最後的因為最重要的還是衛福部意見好 那我想問一下那大概是我們我們現在已經在催衛福部了嘛那現在大家關心的時程上就是有可能趕得上明年的二月嗎這個我不敢保證因為那個牽涉到你每次考試之前要去修考試規則那它有一定的程序不過我們盡快我們盡快召開那個趕快把"},{"start":5399.082,"end":5422.335,"text":"我們現在在催他們趕快把那個回應意見給我們就盡快召開會議那我們預計有打算什麼時候召開會議嗎就是等到收回來我們希望在一個月之內把它收回來好所以應該就是希望在五月底之前吧對不對因為已經蠻久的時間了嘛又已經在催了嘛我們是不是再等到收回來之後然後召開會議再跟委員做一個報告好那就麻煩我們盡快催在這邊我也會去要求衛福部盡快回覆謝謝"},{"start":5427.445,"end":5430.626,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員接下來請審發會委員來做詢答好 主席我們請劉秘書長請劉秘書長委員長 議務長早"},{"start":5452.284,"end":5467.8,"text":"我想這個我們去年3月齁就在一樣在這裡齁我們就在就這個我們這個考試這個考試院的這些業務的相關質詢裡面齁那時候就有提到的有關於我們這個考選基金的這個財務結構的問題齁那這個"},{"start":5472.617,"end":5492.301,"text":"事實上從今年開始我們的這個這個國家考試的報名費調漲了嘛對不對這已經10年沒有調漲了10年沒有調漲那但是這次10年不調漲那這一次調,調了25%調幅是相當大啦那當然我們那時候也探討過了就是說這個我們的這個這個"},{"start":5496.428,"end":5504.191,"text":"考選基金確實是面臨財源的嚴重問題但是其實就整體來看我們人口結構改變參與國家考試的報名人數不斷地下降因為少子化人口結構改變還有現在職業類別的職涯選擇跟過去很不一樣"},{"start":5525.25,"end":5549.242,"text":"那我們這個報名人數節節下降那我們又去調升這個報名費當然我知道是為了這個因為我們的事務成本考試的成本辦理考試的成本不斷的提高這個我們的基金也面臨了這個短促的問題我當然是知道是這些問題"},{"start":5550.723,"end":5564.149,"text":"但是這樣子就是矛盾啊我們又因為報名這個人口結構這個擔任參加國家考試的誘因在整個社會結構來講是降低那我們就去提高這個報名費又去做到25%的調漲這個絕對不是釜底抽薪之計啦這個"},{"start":5579.452,"end":5602.031,"text":"我那時候有跟民主黨講過我們參考日本考公務員考試是不用報名稅的完全不用報名稅因為日本也面臨同樣這個人口結構跟這個職來選擇的改變這個都不是台灣自己獨有的問題這個全世界都一樣在日本他們的國家考試是不用繳報名稅的"},{"start":5604.138,"end":5609.964,"text":"這個釜底抽薪我們上次就講過那時候秘書長也提到釜底抽薪之際還是應該要去調整這個考選業務基金的裁員結構這部分秘書長有做什麼樣的"},{"start":5626.04,"end":5636.672,"text":"我這幾年來我們就考選基金的財務跟主席總書一直有些溝通那當然主席總書的意見我們要尊重他們是認為說你們基金以前基金裡面的這個"},{"start":5639.261,"end":5667.879,"text":"他希望我們基金能夠財務自主大家都希望每一個基金都要財務自主那事實上考遠基金以前沒有啊以前沒有考遠基金是供國家公務預算下去編列去支柱考試當然那時候還是有報名費的還是有送報名費不是都免費但是自從那有一支考試院在很多年前決定成立了這個基金那當時因為報名費收益好那基金是不停的高漲那時候就覺得用基金這個制度還蠻不錯的"},{"start":5668.379,"end":5695.322,"text":"因為它產生了一個經費上的彈性對那可是用預算就會比較多限制那可是現在的情況就是基金會很快就要破產那這個國家考試的財務問題其實我們我覺得第一個委員剛剛講的是我們回去也有一個檢討就是說可能不要變成說長期不漲一漲漲太多這個事情的確是會造成比較大的衝擊也許它應該依照成本的微調去做一些"},{"start":5696.263,"end":5710.405,"text":"尤其逐年或是很短的時間的檢討這是第一個啦那第二個部分就是說也跟委員說明其實我們的博雅考試報名費如果相較於國內各種考試跟測驗其實是幾乎是最便宜的"},{"start":5711.667,"end":5729.827,"text":"其實這個我們十年沒有調漲本身也是就是因為過去十年都不調漲嘛但是其實基本工資光基本工資這十年就漲多少就漲超過三成我們的月捐費用輸給那個交易部的消費者物價指數都漲也都漲十年也都漲但是我報名費都沒有漲這當然這個調漲"},{"start":5731.869,"end":5757.812,"text":"是不會怪你們不是怪你們這個調查而是真正的問題還是在這個考選業務基金的問題這個考選業務基金它的法源依據是兩個法一個公務人員考試法的第18條第4項那另外有關這個專門職業技術人員的考試它也同樣兩個法下去授權成立這個考選基金也授權你們制定這個考選業務"},{"start":5759.133,"end":5782.763,"text":"基金的收支保管及運用辦法你們在這個運用辦法裡面你們第三條你們去規定說本基金的來源第一個就是應考人繳交的報名費收入再來就是知習啦現在幾乎沒有什麼知習了啦那才受證收入以及其他有關收入啦那你如果不去調整這個基金的這個"},{"start":5786.374,"end":5797.452,"text":"這個結構你還是這個最大部分仰賴報名費的話我看未來這個報名人數會逐年遞減那我們到時候可能會這個報名費又逐年調漲"},{"start":5801.189,"end":5827.23,"text":"好那最後這個造成惡性循環你最後這個基金本身光靠這報名片支撐不下去我可以跟委員報告就是說我們考試所有的成本當然也不是靠這個基金那這幾年主委總書對於我們一些專案的預算其實還蠻支持的啦所以我們有些額度外預算的爭取會去還是用這個預算來處理好這個部分我會把它轉嫁到考生身上這部分我就所以我就這個議題我就落實到我們今年年度的邊的預算來看"},{"start":5829.622,"end":5834.485,"text":"我就看你們這個分支計畫概況表就考試業務相下啦我就比較去年跟今年去年的114年的預算跟115年的預算你們過去整個項目有關於這個"},{"start":5853.206,"end":5871.588,"text":"考試業務的預算整體來講你們114年度是一億三千多萬那今年整體是增加到一億五千萬整體規模成長但是我看裡面的項目做的很這次做的可以說是相當"},{"start":5873.018,"end":5889.55,"text":"大幅度的調整過去在這個向下有兩個項目一個是針對考選基金的這個辦理事務工作的補助另外一個是針對考選業務基金的考試數位轉型發展跟推動補助過去就是向下這兩個相似這兩個相似各編列5000萬跟8300萬那這個"},{"start":5897.159,"end":5916.845,"text":"結果在115年度的我看你們同樣的這個考試業務向下的這個這個相次計畫已經完全做了調整第一個剛剛所講的針對這個所謂辦理事務工作的補助你們整個項目刪除了五千萬這部分整個項目刪除了那這個剛剛講的推動這個數位轉型發展的這個發展及推動的補助這個你們從"},{"start":5925.289,"end":5942.696,"text":"過去的這個8300萬今年調整為7200萬看起來是稍微減少了一點但是裡面的項目卻差了很多過去這8300萬全部都是對特種基金補助"},{"start":5944.946,"end":5962.359,"text":"今年你對特種一樣這個項目對特種基金是補助你從8300萬今年大幅降到1900萬而已其他都變成設備都變成設備跟投資我要問這個結構這個改變是為什麼跟委員報告齁那個主要是因為先前去年還有5000多萬他是防疫補助"},{"start":5963.18,"end":5989.917,"text":"防疫補助到去年 到今年就沒有了是什麼補助 防疫補助那時候因為防疫 所以有額外多支出了考試也有額外多支出了 應該是兩億它分年補助進來 去年最後一年所以防疫補助去年多少就是5200多萬就是因為防疫補助 去年有你現在說的是第一項的就是剛剛委員說為什麼有一個忽然間降到了"},{"start":5991.158,"end":6019.137,"text":"大幅降到一千九百二十六萬六千元他跟去年相比就是他有五千兩百多萬的防疫補助今年沒有了他到期了到期了對到期了但是老實說我們很感謝就是說但是行政院主計他還是用設備跟投資來等於是把有一點把這五千多萬透過設備跟投資打掉我們那折舊攤體的部分如果沒有那樣的話我坦白跟委員報告我們可能的報名會要漲到超過百分之三十幾"},{"start":6019.917,"end":6047.198,"text":"我現在就是要了解這個就是我們剛剛在講說報名費調漲是因為基金基金的這個這個可能會短促的問題那我們在對基金的補助卻又大幅調降我跟你講這五千萬好我現在等一下我把所有數字都扣掉你說的防疫的五千萬還是降補助還是少了還是比去年少了你們今年又新增就是除了剛剛有一千九百萬嘛一千九百萬那這個"},{"start":6049.738,"end":6073.657,"text":"你們去今年新增對考選業務基金的設備軟體這個等開放及購買補助這部分你們新增了大概五千萬大概新增五千萬因為新增的像是對考選考選業務基金的護理師國家考試這個部分光這部分就新增兩針對特定針對護理師考試的就又新增了兩千八百萬對不對"},{"start":6076.019,"end":6090.596,"text":"那我現在把剛剛講的1900萬再加上新增的這個這個這個汰換設備補助的5000萬再加上這個護理師的加起來2800萬加起來加總我們對於這個基金大概就就今年的列在對基金補助大概就是5000萬5000多萬"},{"start":6093.595,"end":6113.248,"text":"那去年是多少 去年連同我剛剛講的刪除 項目刪除的這個辦理事務工作的補助去年加總是一億三千五百萬一億三千五百萬到今年剩下五千萬扣掉你剛剛講的五千萬 事實上還是在少如果再加上五千萬 今年是差不多一億 你還是少了三千萬"},{"start":6120.753,"end":6135.586,"text":"整體對於這基金的補助的費用整個都降低了應該不是這樣算因為我們整體進來的基金的你們可能是很多的部分你們列到設備跟你們列到設備跟投資了項目你們改到設備跟投資了但是你們整體對於這個基金的補助你們就"},{"start":6144.369,"end":6150.365,"text":"整個企業是短掃了扣除掉防疫補助的五千萬你們還是短掃三千多萬"},{"start":6151.738,"end":6176.572,"text":"但是跟委員報告他雖然項目中有改變但從現金進來其實是從114年的1.35億變成今年應該是1.54億你是把設備對那個一定要加上去因為那個簡單講你把設備投資都加上去才會那個一定要因為對我們來講那是很重要的支出我們辦考試很大一部分在那個地方好那這整個齁我回到我剛剛講的整體問題啦我們整個考選業務基金財務結構齁"},{"start":6180.897,"end":6208.384,"text":"這個可以說從109年到113年我們的差短現在整個差短到113年度已經到了1億6千6百萬我看審計部的報告提到說我們報名費調增之後115年度基金將呈現剩餘今年因為調漲將呈現剩餘但是116年度恐又面臨短促那明年還是又短促雖然我們已經調漲報名費了"},{"start":6212.096,"end":6239.218,"text":"我想這部分我談這麼多問題這其實是大問題而且大家都知道問題癥結在哪裡民主黨這部分是不是我們來就我們的考選業務基金的整個財務結構來做整體的檢討謝謝委員的支持我們很願意就這個部分其實來做一些跟委員做一些討論事實上我覺得不管是用預算還是用基金如果國家考試要辦得更精緻更能夠"},{"start":6241.212,"end":6258.746,"text":"達到選材目的的話其實他真的需要更多的經費的投注好這個我今天本來還有幾個問題不過因為時間的關係我想我們到時候會再進入預算的主條審查的時候我再來跟跟我們考試院這邊來做討論整體來講我們是是要面臨考試院現在確實是很辛苦要面臨這個人口結構社會結構的整個改變那這個又要面臨這個財務的這個"},{"start":6269.875,"end":6292.961,"text":"考選業務基金的財務結構的挑戰這部分我們希望說我們在預算審查除條審查的時候我們來進行討論也希望說我們本委員會能夠對考試院的預算予以支持因為這個現在整體社會結構來講實在是對大環境非常對考試院來講是挑戰是很大所以希望說在預算上面本委員會能夠給予大力的支持以上好 謝謝審發會委員"},{"start":6302.042,"end":6305.184,"text":"好 接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席有請我們劉建新秘書長好 請秘書長上台請保訓會我們請保訓會委員長安秘書長"},{"start":6322.376,"end":6346.255,"text":"我昨天在我們社會法治委員會裡面在人種的部分我特別去請教他們這個對於整個極端氣候的一個問題越來越熱的問題就是說台灣其實高溫這個都不是什麼大新聞那也不像什麼夏天比較熱而已而是實際會造成熱傷害甚至會危及到生命的"},{"start":6347.336,"end":6374.569,"text":"國建署的統計裡面就台灣的這三開就診人數2014年開始要看檔年才會2000人2024更高達3942人 創新高勞工的部分在勞動部他有一個高溫作業指引公務人員我們現在都是參考辦理所以在你們的相關規定裡面包括您保訓會去年也成立的安慰防護署"},{"start":6375.902,"end":6395.961,"text":"掛一個牌之後 我倒覺得這不應該只是說掛個牌那該去做的應該其實可以再加強一下就是說你們其實針對那個高溫的部分那公務人員部分的一個規定裡面現在是說高溫或低溫工作應設置降溫或者保溫的設施 只有這樣而已"},{"start":6397.262,"end":6418.042,"text":"你的電影就比較空泛了那為什麼特別去提到這個問題公務人員有人想說你找辦公室 找電器而已還是說在那裡比較涼未必 很多人是戶外你說在基層的外勤的人員裡面像警察 消防員還有環保機察 交通執法戶外的這些工程人員裡面那其實啊"},{"start":6418.743,"end":6439.917,"text":"他們也跟勞工一樣,很多的機會裡面都是暴露在高溫之下我們現在目前就沒有一個比較完整、明確、統一的一個高溫防護的一個標準所以我不知道說保訓會在你們鼓勵大家成立這個,不要說只掛白啦應該趕快去制定一個公務人員高溫的防護的"},{"start":6441.195,"end":6461.872,"text":"指引不要只說我只來參考勞動部你譬如說你高溫達到一定的一個等級的時候你總是要一個統一的應變的一個機制嘛譬如說我彈性調整勤務或是說增加休息時間或是說補水或降溫的設備或避免長時間這樣的一個暴露所以呢我"},{"start":6463.462,"end":6468.729,"text":"認為安慰防護處這個地方你真的要去做的就是要去抽查或去做什麼不要只紙上作業我不知道保訓會這邊的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6478.356,"end":6497.848,"text":"謝謝委員 委員說的是對的 因為我們去年成立以後 安慰處是去年10月20號才成立的所以我們一開始的這個有關高溫低溫 而且台灣主要還是濕 濕加熱 所以就會變得很容易熱衰竭"},{"start":6499.776,"end":6515.397,"text":"目前的那個相關的一個安全衛生的設施管理那個要點是目前是參照那個治安署的沒有錯但是呢陳律委員講的我目前也正在修那個部分特別就是說我們"},{"start":6516.178,"end":6528.543,"text":"之前有去這個內政部跟他們討論過 去年的時候 特別是那些警察消防我前陣子就不敢問任總 任總是指引的愛林保訓會對 沒錯 所以我們現在正在修 也剛好謝謝委員很關心 也就是說"},{"start":6535.285,"end":6554.109,"text":"在室內也不見得因為我們現在會規定說室內的溫度是開多少那也是會造成這個有些同仁是不是的那剛剛委員特別去提到就是說戶外的部分那不只是警消啦還有一些其實包含我們很多的公務人員他可能在外面"},{"start":6555.014,"end":6565.554,"text":"很多的執行勤務是有的那環保及其他人員也都一樣啊對 很辛苦那這個您剛有提到幾個重點第一個就是說我們要去訂定一個不只是參考勞動部的這個"},{"start":6567.485,"end":6592.936,"text":"部分 那我們目前正在規劃 而且我們會跟這些相關主管機關來一起討論 加速 好不好 這個這個部分 你那一部分已經成立了 那個抽查的部分因為我們今年六 我們就是下半年開始要去實地抽查那剛剛委員所提到的那個特殊可能很辛苦的地方 我們就是為什麼會選在今年下半年就是夏天去抽查主要是比較能夠了解說 那個整個的"},{"start":6595.019,"end":6602.507,"text":"實際上的工作場域是怎樣那我們一定會加速這個我希望各位可以趕快跟上另外國家電子證書數位化的問題我要特別來請教就是說國家考試"},{"start":6609.735,"end":6627.026,"text":"比如說我們國家考試到那個及格證書電子化的方向這個都值得肯定啦但是呢這個現在考生可以下載電子證書線上的一個驗證那確實是比較方便也符合這個數位政府的一個方向但現在有一個問題"},{"start":6628.915,"end":6645.653,"text":"這不是一般的網站,掌握的是全國公務人員的資料,專機人員的資料,甚至於涉及到整個國安相關的資訊那現在,我們每個月都看到,政府說中國那個地方"},{"start":6646.734,"end":6656.124,"text":"對台網路的攻擊是多嚴重啊甚至於這個在去年我們就平均的去統計的對台關鍵基礎設施攻擊達200多萬次那既然我們考試院已經都認定也是屬於A級資安的一個"},{"start":6666.7,"end":6691.923,"text":"機關就代表說這個是最高等級的一個治安的一個責任我希望 我要請考試院來這個地方來做說明就是說你考試院管轄下的機關你到底哪一些是A級哪一些是B級 C級還是說你有可能全面去做一個升級嗎就是說你如果A級機關 你要完成率到底是多少包括說你這個弱點的掃描"},{"start":6692.863,"end":6709.91,"text":"滲透的一個測試啊威脅的監控啊甚至於你備份的部分要去還原治安的一個演練事件的一個通報就是說這裡的考試院你們到底有去落實沒有啦必須要問的是這裡啦因為我們考試院除了保訓會之外都被列為A級"},{"start":6711.471,"end":6727.947,"text":"那因為這個如果你的責任等級是A級的話你就必須依照資通安全管理這個相關的規定去做這個定期的檢測啦相關的防護等等所以我們資訊系統的能量資安的能量其實也不斷的在維新不斷的要去提升而且每年定期的檢測我們落點掃描啦什麼偵測"},{"start":6731.751,"end":6753.767,"text":"滲透的偵測 製造安全所有的檢查項目我們都必須要去落實來做那這個因為也這個蘇哈布這邊也都會很認真的盯住所有的A級機關所以我們這個都會去完成它是啦 所以我是認為說既然是列為A級機關這個部分確實你們要去全面去落實尤其是整個核心系統裡面到底有沒有全部去納管還是有漏洞"},{"start":6754.888,"end":6781.624,"text":"這考試院家你自己要好好去做一個盤點這個我不敢懈怠那另外啊整個電子證書的推動的一個問題啊現在我看這個整個電子證書數量雖然增加但是也有不少考生啊他還是另外會去申請紙本這很正常嗎大概一成多那代表其實這也可能你也可以把它解釋成說很多人還是不熟悉啊還是我不放心啊還是我不習慣那都有可能但是問題就是說這個錢的部分"},{"start":6784.886,"end":6812.906,"text":"這個就要來計較一下了你現在電子版多少?一百?一百紙本五百?五百原來紙本五百後來都沒有再漲過因為貼出了電子證書大家只要選擇電子證書就只有一百那一百我們也算過差不多成本就是一百出頭所以我們就收一百五百是原來的價格我倒覺得你們可以去研議一下"},{"start":6813.726,"end":6833.799,"text":"你譬如說我第一次來 第一次客人免費下載 降低那個門檻 加強去做一個宣導因為這個叫數位化 數位化其實就是一個 那想出來是要變民嘛你不要變成 當然我們也不能去形成一個治安的破口啦你講的是一百太貴還是五百太貴 我覺得都貴"},{"start":6839.475,"end":6844.62,"text":"其實就考生入局者來講他已經可以有100這樣的選擇他不用像以前一定要花那個500塊"},{"start":6846.77,"end":6864.827,"text":"對,所以我們有核算過啦,因為財政部每天都叫我們檢討各項收費嘛,我們算過大概我記得成本就是一百零幾,也差不多,一百零幾,零三啦,所以我們收一百塊算合理啦,因為你整個資訊要維護。你也不用叫,你叫你檢討,你就檢討,你考試院你是院的,你在開什麼玩笑,他是婦女,你是院的,你聽他的。"},{"start":6869.791,"end":6877.732,"text":"這個其實就是做一個預算我其實要講是說透過那個檢討我們知道一百塊是合理的沒有比較貴另外我最後一個問題短短的一個時間裡面其實今天很多議題下來做一個請教但是時間也不太多公務人員這個考試這個部分你說我們不用一個公務人員我們只要要開發一個事情成本譬如說你做三十檔"},{"start":6898.272,"end":6923.789,"text":"幾千萬 一定是一兩千萬吧不只不只 不只好幾千萬 到如果連退休金的部分所以你看 國務理員不用出來之後 身分那裡多少啊出來其實是要 國務理員一個做下去之後平均來做 普通人做下去做到二十天 他就想要做三十天啦然後做到退休啦那重點就不是說只有成本的問題啦就主要還是掌握整個國家的一個公權力喔那所以說"},{"start":6925.29,"end":6947.937,"text":"這個要篩選一個人出來,來做公務人員,替老闆學服務,那樣等的時間我們一直在講,我們現在考試從以前我們小時候到現在,台灣就是大家都很會考試我去美國,我去Stanford,我去看他們去考試,他們在那邊統計台灣從小學一輩子到大學,下過考卷要一萬張"},{"start":6950.126,"end":6951.228,"text":"美國這個就跟我們打拚 他說他們差不多 這樣討論下來就告大家比較 如果差不多100場 他們的零力就發達到100場"},{"start":6961.847,"end":6982.462,"text":"參與老師啊 討論啊就可以跟台灣的一萬張考卷來做抗衡那個制度都會完全不一樣那我們的考選裡面呢是不是我們都走傳統的就好像大家來比試或是說我們有去研議譬如說我的這個結構化的口試啊或是說情境的一個測驗啊心理測驗啊 性向的一個測驗啊就是說"},{"start":6985.845,"end":6994.535,"text":"公務人員你要的是他的什麼啦就是說他的判斷能力或是他的溝通能力或是他的情緒穩定或是說他在處理老百姓的問題的一個領域這要比試考不出來"},{"start":6998.049,"end":7014.901,"text":"同意委員的講法我們有鼓勵用人機關提出對考試方法的辯論舉例來講 比如說空勤總隊 他們以前都只有比試這個考選部要特別講一下譬如說你們的信箱車 您說多久了說你們還沒進步"},{"start":7018.666,"end":7042.163,"text":"公務員報告我們現在基本上是把現象測驗改成用公務職能來講因為在台灣講到現象兩個字很容易被當成第一個叫心理 第二個叫天生能力但是我們把它變成公務職能我們現在預計是正在要把那個至少升官等考試用那個試行我們會把那個普通科目取代掉然後來看看怎麼樣把這種所謂的公務職能"},{"start":7042.731,"end":7045.032,"text":"或基礎能力取代他原來的普通科目"},{"start":7058.666,"end":7080.512,"text":"我認為啦 我是這樣建議啦 不然不然大家討論那麼久 台灣就變成大家都是填鴨丸以後大家只是去比試不是說那個不對啦 那個至少是一個公平性可是真正要篩選出來的時候我們也都覺得那個都實在是不是最完美的啦所以考選部這其實你們的責任啦 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊惠淳委員"},{"start":7088.749,"end":7103.803,"text":"好 接下來我們請徐宇森委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請考試院的祕書長 劉祕書長好 請祕書長上台備詢委員長"},{"start":7111.931,"end":7127.301,"text":"我們行政院長卓榮泰卓院長在這個5月2號出席南丁格爾獎的頒獎典禮的時候公開的表示為解決護理人力荒已經兩度拜託我們考試院跟考選部護理師的國考題目不要出太難"},{"start":7128.061,"end":7150.359,"text":"而且也提到說可以多出考古迪不要考專門技術那當然這個部分其實已經超出了我們一般政策溝通觸及跟行政跟考試這個權的這個憲政分際的問題那尤其是我們知道其實現在護理人力荒其實主要原因是因為工作高壓而且低薪過勞的一個問題"},{"start":7152.661,"end":7170.148,"text":"應該不是考試太難的問題那針對我們行政院長公開的說這樣的說法請問秘書長考試院認不認同這種說法就是護理人員是專門技術人員可以不用考專門技術我必須還原一下我們兩院之間溝通這件事的現場"},{"start":7171.308,"end":7189.596,"text":"那當然我覺得如果我們講得過度簡單或者是用詞用錯的話會讓大家有一點是不是我們要降低專業水準那所以說您是指行政院長講得太過簡單喔所有的專技證照考試一定以專業作為門檻這個大家不管是行政院考試院都不會讓步"},{"start":7191.397,"end":7212.865,"text":"主任院長主動安排跟考試院討論好幾個醫事人力的問題這個部分我們覺得是正向的因為兩院之間最怕不溝通在討論過程中主任院長是反應說民間有在說我們的護理師考試是不是有時候題目會有點過度尖色冷僻甚至有的時候他會像是好像在考專"},{"start":7214.065,"end":7234.594,"text":"科護理師那樣的水準的題目那這個部分呢我們就跟總院長說其實衛福部跟我們考選部兩部已經在這個事情上已經共同合作了很多年那我們請護理師學會來協助我們檢視怎麼樣去考一個適當的出任的護理師他在核心職能裡面應該知道的專業範圍"},{"start":7235.834,"end":7254.634,"text":"所以說我知道您的意思就是說行政院長他在公開的場合其實講法不可以這麼的簡單不可以這麼的讓人家覺得說好像我們就是只要把這個題目出簡單點多出考古題不要考專門技術就會解決護理人力荒的問題他的原意應該不是這樣"},{"start":7255.775,"end":7274.545,"text":"對 但是一般的民眾不會知道尤其是在公開的場合尤其有這麼多的這個媒體經過多次的這樣子的一個披露大家的感覺會是這樣那當然也會讓人家感受到就是說這兩度的傾脫你剛剛講嘛一次是在520的時候是嗎一次是在"},{"start":7276.326,"end":7290.063,"text":"第一次是周院長我們周院長上任之後我們安排了一個去跟行政院做拜會做廣泛議題的交換那第二次就是周院長邀請說我們去跟他讓他了解這個議題那像這部分的話考試院有沒有留下記錄呢"},{"start":7293.877,"end":7301.279,"text":"呃 非正式的其實沒有簽紀錄因為它其實有一點就是溝通協調的性質並非正式會議因為其實請託跟關說其實就是一線之隔啦那因為都沒有什麼 關說對 沒有什麼這個私底下的會面那其實這個容易 考用之間多溝通啦是 當然我也贊成多溝通行政院自己不了解考試院但是不了解所以就有誤解"},{"start":7319.802,"end":7326.367,"text":"現在願意多溝通那我再請教一下秘書長就說115年度考選部新增了護理師國家考試題物經濟經費2821萬元那請問一下這筆預算是不是跟行政院所稱的這個兩度請託有關所以才會在今年新增了這2821萬的經費呢我請部長來解釋是 謝謝"},{"start":7343.559,"end":7356.699,"text":"跟委員報告這個計畫是在去年的時候就已經討論而且最主要是有考選部衛福部跟護理學會共同討論的病案的計畫那院長在講這些話也是去年不是嗎"},{"start":7358.382,"end":7380.991,"text":"應該說我們考選部或者是我們對這件事的正式立場都是以在這個計畫裡面經過衛福部跟護理學會大家共同討論的這是我們正式的對護理題目進行的正式立場請問一下現在是護理師缺人那書記官也缺人警察也缺人土木技師也缺人那未來是不是都可以用這種方式說考試要考簡單一點因為這幾個單位缺人"},{"start":7383.317,"end":7396.763,"text":"沒有 那個跟委員報告 這邊大概都是如果他要根據工人員考試法 一個專機考試法那專機考試法本來就是要求包含命題大綱就是需要那個主管機關然後專業的團體跟考選部來共同進行討論"},{"start":7400.385,"end":7412.43,"text":"所以基本上我們如果從考試的立場 我們是站在專技人員考試法這個明確的規定在跟那個主管用的機關 專業團體來進行所以這一次的問題我覺得主要是在不是在護理師的考題難不難 因為大家都知道不是考題難不難的問題而是行政院長可不可以這樣公開的請託考試院來調整國考的一個難度"},{"start":7424.714,"end":7450.54,"text":"那我們也希望說 我們考試院必須要提升這個命題的一個品質來真正的招攬到我們 守住我們專業的門檻這個才是問題的核心那我覺得在這部分 當然院際溝通是必要但是像這樣的過程很容易讓人家誤會所以考試院是不是可以這個正式的來說明就是說行政院不可以以缺人為由來干涉國考的命題標準"},{"start":7451.3,"end":7469.146,"text":"行政院是職業主管機關或用人機關的話我們都希望用人機關都把他們的需求告訴我們但事實上考試院當然是一個獨立的決策的系統那我們會參考各界不管是用人機關主管機關還是業界或學界的意見來做綜合最好的判斷就像劉委員講的現在的問題是護理人力荒的問題就剛剛講的是低薪過勞這個高壓的問題"},{"start":7476.348,"end":7495.913,"text":"那個也沒有錯所以要怎麼樣去解決這個問題可能才是能夠解決護理人力荒的問題所以我看主委長那天講話他也把12個行動方案整體的講出來了這裡面有很多都是對準了職場環境的改善跟待遇的問題我想大家共同來努力然後另外再請教一下就是說考試院說這個部長您可以請回"},{"start":7496.913,"end":7512.161,"text":"就是考訓說這個電子證書的政策已經成功了剛剛也有特別提到目前大概剛聽到Miu長講大概是這個用電子申請大概是九成嗎資本大概只有一成左右是嗎應該要電子是百分之百"},{"start":7512.601,"end":7536.556,"text":"百分之百所有的當選所有的及格者都會有的會去申請基本所以說你考試員講說這個電子證這個證書政策已經很成功了那為什麼證書系統今年還要花一千零七萬三千年改版因為這個證書系統它在建制之後它其實都會有維運或者是安全或者系統提升的需求那這個因為這個系統因為有一點久了"},{"start":7539.378,"end":7564.794,"text":"那它就會出現很多治安上面的需求必須要提升對 那您現在講的是要改版1077萬元是要改版是嗎對那因為過去三年我們光這個維修費增修的這個部分就花了2263萬那為什麼之前不直接改版而是要再增修花了2000多萬之後然後再來改版"},{"start":7565.234,"end":7581.735,"text":"是不是代表這個考証的資訊的這個系統是這樣一年一年地來在捕破網的方式其實我想所有的資訊系統它都會必須要不停地提升那也會在執行的過程中逐漸去看到各種需要改善的問題啦"},{"start":7583.316,"end":7606.121,"text":"所以說現在就是過去這三年來花的兩千多萬是徵休的這個經費是沒有辦法完成這樣的一個作業嗎沒有沒有過去應該沒有你可以看一下這個我們這個立法院的一個預算中心的評估報告在112年到114年預算數額就是編列預算辦理系統功能徵休分別是880萬710萬跟673萬"},{"start":7609.582,"end":7635.315,"text":"所以過去三年花了兩千多萬今年又花一千多萬來改版事實上為什麼不之前就直接改版那一開始應該是資本門的投資嘛但是它後面的軟體的部分會需要更新我們希望說當然這資安的部分我們覺得非常重要但是呢每一筆錢還是希望能夠審慎的評估不要說這邊修一點那邊修一點花那麼多錢最後又說還需要改版一方面也是那個資安A級機關我們必須要對自己有比較高的要求"},{"start":7636.135,"end":7640.401,"text":"會亂花錢 有人有需要的話我們再跟你們做詳細的說明好 謝謝民務長然後另外再請教這個民務長就是有關國家考試圍場跟數位多功能考場大樓今年又編列了4億1094萬元"},{"start":7652.757,"end":7670.525,"text":"比去年增加了2億8714萬7千元這個增幅高達231.95%那我們看一下就是說到114年8月底預算中心有一個評估報告說我們的累積分配預算數是1586萬但實支數只有16萬4千元執行率只有1.03請問一下為什麼執行率只有1.03"},{"start":7680.051,"end":7695.73,"text":"因為他最主要是他之前還在經過審核過程那4月28號已經正式的我們點交給那個施工單位所以他今年就開始進入正式的開工建設的階段所以說經費今年才要編列兩億八千多萬來去這個"},{"start":7697.371,"end":7722.763,"text":"來去開始 等於開始那因為從這個計畫的開始目前本來是10億嘛那現在已經調整到13億然後115年度又調到19億也就是說照原始規劃大概增加了8億多增幅高達80%那請問一下這個是什麼原因增幅會高達這麼多因為它變這個經費是在COFI之前然後在 我想這個應該是普遍的"},{"start":7723.363,"end":7744.925,"text":"在這個階段在這個過程當中它普遍的政府建設都會遇到這個土木工程的經費上漲那它編的時候比較早那經過了COFI那這個是實際其實我們這個是委託那個國土署來代辦所以我想這個估計應該都是非常專業的那請問一下這一個我們的這個考場大樓是什麼時候可以完工"},{"start":7746.186,"end":7773.512,"text":"預計是119年那請問一下還會再增加預算嗎不會啦 就這樣子就是等於19億對 因為他發包了他已經發包了就19億5264萬元大概就是這樣子的金額對 因為我們還是希望說因為這樣看著每年的這個預算一直增加那我們也很希望有一個這個真的是數位的多功能的大樓可以盡快的完成而不是說每年編列預算然後一直不斷的增加預算可是卻一直還沒有辦法完工"},{"start":7774.572,"end":7787.3,"text":"這個部分可能希望我們這個不然是考試院這邊或考選部這邊能夠針對這個考這個工程進度喔能夠去好好的督促那每一筆錢都必須花在這個刀口上謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來我們請鄭天才 鄭委員上台質詢"},{"start":7816.079,"end":7843.555,"text":"主席有請考試院秘書長還有考選部部長我們請考選部部長上台培訓辛苦了今天特別先回顧一下這個早期是特種考試台灣省三地行政及經濟建設人員的考試規則"},{"start":7846.176,"end":7864.223,"text":"當時這個事務是委託台灣省政府民政廳的因為我曾經在台灣省政府原住民行政局服務過所以在受委託的時候就是負責這個事務的一個工作那後來"},{"start":7867.036,"end":7883.07,"text":"這個公務人員考試法在民國七十幾年公布施行所以授權第七條第一項授權訂定的這個公務人員特種考試原住民族考試規則這個考試規則已經實施多年也要謝謝這個考試院還有考選部的辦理"},{"start":7891.616,"end":7921.061,"text":"我們看這個公務員特種考試原住民考試規則第三條的第一項的第一計劃中華民國國民既有原住民身份中華民國國民既有原住民身份那現在因為有了不同的法例行政院依據憲法法庭111年憲判制定"},{"start":7922.93,"end":7945.926,"text":"17號的判決按照這個判決行政院有兩個做法第一個做法可以修原住民身份法把平埔族群納入到原住民身份法裡面但是行政院綜合的考量之後選擇了"},{"start":7949.327,"end":7970.998,"text":"另外制定平埔原住民族群身份法另外制定 這是考量到現在的原住民身份跟新成立的平埔原住民有很大的不同所以另制定這個專法"},{"start":7974.434,"end":7994.023,"text":"而這個專法裡面在114年10月23號公布施行所以已經開始施行了所以接下來要怎麼去適用會很重要我們看這個22條平埔原住民族群適用法22條"},{"start":7995.578,"end":8022.494,"text":"平埔原住民族群語言及文化之保障適用原住民族語言發展法文化資產保存法及原住民族傳統智慧創作保護條例所以平埔原住民族群身份法從第一條到最後一條現在已經很明確可以直接適用的法例就是這個三個法例"},{"start":8025.396,"end":8041.51,"text":"其他原住民族群的相關的潛意,第23條規定得很清楚政府應以本法施行後三年內,充分考量各平埔原住民族群以及呈現之歷史發展脈絡及現況,並斟酌國家資源分配"},{"start":8046.875,"end":8073.517,"text":"制定或修正相關法律保障及其政治參與交通水利衛生醫療經濟土地及社會福利等權利在這樣的一個非常明確的情況之下有關考試院的主管的法規法例就必須要去做很明確的他現在不適用"},{"start":8075.843,"end":8103.355,"text":"剛才就談到三個法律適用所以考剛才談的公務人員特種考試原住民族考試規則並沒有包含直接適用的對象沒有直接適用這個法律但是如果你們不去做修正或是配合就解釋我們的事務人員或是相關的這些"},{"start":8104.301,"end":8133.187,"text":"你看中華民國國民具有原住民身份在戶籍資料裡面平埔原住民他會有原住民身份喔如果沒有去做明確的法規的明確的規定或者是解釋就會會有這個這樣的落差會有很大的錯誤所以呢"},{"start":8135.086,"end":8161.045,"text":"要請這個考試驗考選部參考這個原住民保留地開發管理辦法明定原住民是指山地原住民及平地原住民或者是參考原住民族工作前保障法實行細則第二條本法第二條所稱既有原住民身份者依原住民身份法"},{"start":8162.233,"end":8179.142,"text":"因為兩個法例不同原住民身份法一個是平埔原住民族群身份法所以兩個不同所以必須要做還明確的去修正這個你的特種考試規則秘書長可以嗎部長"},{"start":8182.428,"end":8206.088,"text":"因為這件事牽涉到對法律的這個看要怎麼解釋或是不是允許我們回去召開一下那個相關的法律專家的諮詢會議然後我們來看對這件事情怎麼來處理比較好那個不是法律專家諮詢會議這個嚴明會第一個當然是嚴明會第二個這個剛才講了這個法律訂得很清楚"},{"start":8207.408,"end":8234.431,"text":"訂得很清楚就是這些只有這三種法律是適用所以這個部分務必一定要去修正能夠你最穩當的修正是這個參考這個施行細則原住民族工作權保障法施行細則直接就是明訂既有原住民一原住民身份法一原住民身份法的規定"},{"start":8235.771,"end":8260.925,"text":"他當然就不適用平埔原住民族群身份法那至於平埔族群的部分未來是不是要那就是要按照這個23條你們要去評估 去了解也許是另外定 我的建議另外定平埔原住民族群的特種考試規則這是我的建議 好不好"},{"start":8263.045,"end":8274.988,"text":"三年之內應該這些議題我想都需要做充分的討論我們會跟主管機關再交換意見整體來考量謝謝政天才委員的詢問接下來請邱惠祿委員來做質詢主席各位委員同仁還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請那個劉秘書長請劉秘書長"},{"start":8293.991,"end":8312.438,"text":"是 秘書長你好 我想跟您請教國考難易度的問題就是國考不要出太難是可以作為緩解護理人員慌的一個手段之一嗎護理人員的人力議題就很多面向相關啦所以我們也不會說去降低專業標準來滿足人力的問題"},{"start":8316.1,"end":8325.713,"text":"但是考試內容是要對準核心職能這個之前也跟您說明過是 那我跟您請教一件事我在想你今天來質詢應該是不斷在還原當天那個現場因為剛剛我聽到你好像還原一次現場給徐宇珍那個委員廳嘛那我想問一件事"},{"start":8333.883,"end":8349.008,"text":"就是我剛 因為我本來想要問你有沒有會議記錄那我坐在下面我已經得知並沒有那我想請問一件事因為我們都只看到卓院長片面的說啊考試不要太難啊考古題啊專業技術不要考那我想請問當下考試院長的反應是什麼"},{"start":8350.407,"end":8367.835,"text":"其實那天就是其實主任長那天也不是這樣講啦主任長就是說他聽到外面講說有時候考題會尖色冷屁是是指護理師嗎我要先確認講到護理師 對考題尖色冷屁是指護理師的考試嗎對 他談到護理師考試護理師考試那我真的"},{"start":8368.775,"end":8372.599,"text":"我們的入取率高達八成考題還要更簡單嗎如果這個入取率高達八成會深色冷闢嗎深色冷闢根本不可能入取率高達八成啊當然入取率有時候會變化但是這個意見我們有跟組委長說這個意見我們也聽過"},{"start":8388.757,"end":8404.986,"text":"好 那我們也有請護理師學會來幫我們檢視這件事這個是考選部跟衛福部已經合作在進行的這是在他提出這個意見之前我們已經在進行的工作了解 那你說你有請專家嘛請專業的來嘛 然後護理師台灣護理學會怎麼說護理學會 他們怎麼說他們就說 他攜助我們來檢視這些過去的考題因為我們考題考過的都會公開嘛是 檢視的結果如何檢視的結果就是說 有一些可能會有一點像是專科護理師的程度的題目"},{"start":8417.172,"end":8440.717,"text":"或者是說有一些題目有點是在整個核心職能範圍外的部分比例呢你不能說50題當中有一題比較難然後就說全部很難絕對沒有那麼低啦來是有部長嗎其實這個跟委員報告我們跟護理學會其實有正式的開過那個會議那護理學會其實對我們的題目有一些批評"},{"start":8441.677,"end":8458.993,"text":"其實譬如說我們有一些那個題目他的那個臨床的病症不是常見的臨床病症好我理解這些我都理解因為時間有限那我只是想要知道說當時我們的那個院長當下的反應是什麼照單全收還是說"},{"start":8461.119,"end":8476.198,"text":"院長當然請我們說明因為委員跟您報告是從2023年開始我就在主持跨部會有關護理師人力的相關的議題那他其實也就是針對說所以我們後來才會催促說"},{"start":8476.858,"end":8491.227,"text":"我們每年在11月多辦一次考試我們希望7月考試沒有過的考生好 說起考試再多一次當時也引起護理界的大炸鍋為什麼要再多一次在護理界"},{"start":8492.748,"end":8507.481,"text":"在護理人員的心中呢你多開放一次其實你就是想多放護理人員進來為什麼想多放護理人員進來因為我們護理界出現大逃亡的情形但是護理人員認為放人進來不是問題不是 不是真解"},{"start":8507.881,"end":8528.306,"text":"不是對症下藥的方式一條河如果已經有了毒素你放更多的人進來只是讓更多的人被毒死只是讓更多的人害怕之後會逃離護理界你們在2011年的時候有做過國考三次改革一次改革就是你剛說的考試的次數有兩次變為三次護理界大反彈題數有80變50"},{"start":8531.107,"end":8537.19,"text":"大反彈因為感覺呢就是要放寬門檻再來呢基礎醫學是一個比較難的科目比重有20%降為10%大反彈為什麼大反彈因為你們連續一而再再而三的動作都讓人家覺得你們要降低國好的門檻都讓人家覺得你們要貶低護理的專業價值我們護理人員覺得"},{"start":8551.758,"end":8557.847,"text":"今天護理界會缺人絕對不是因為人不夠我們有30萬的大軍卻只有19萬的人進入職場問題是在哪裡呢問題是在低薪高戶併比勞動條件差高工時還有高壓"},{"start":8567.691,"end":8580.528,"text":"委員我完全同意您說護理師面對的工作困境其實是現場環境的壓力所以你們做了國考的改革所以今天政府的應對措施絕對不是只是拿考試來做處理"},{"start":8582.891,"end":8608.163,"text":"對但我們沒有看到其他的啊勞動條件依然差護病比依然高啊然後薪水依然低啊那現在三班護病比感覺政府好像要跳票啊是我們民眾黨積極的提出醫療法的修正才讓三班護病比的進度往前走所以國家改革的國考改革其實總職業率並沒有提升數字會說話那你不能因為職業率沒有提升你又把腦筋動到"},{"start":8609.364,"end":8615.669,"text":"考試來啊那你不能夠解決不了問題 你是要解決題目主委院長還說他誤會一場其實我倒帶還原他的說法根本就是真心真意的希望考題簡單一點根本就是真心真意把門檻降低然後讓更多的人進來其實讓更多的人進來沒有辦法解決護理人員的慌反而是你去加重人們對護理專業很廉價的感覺這是我們最不滿的所以護理師的慌"},{"start":8637.664,"end":8664.46,"text":"從來不是考題的難易我剛剛講的那些什麼低薪高工時高護病比那個才是元兇所以你會導致舊的人想要從職場大逃亡新的人大抵抗也不想進來所以呢從考題來下手如果你們解決不了問題你們解決題目這就是基層人員跟你們之間的距離無限遙遠因為你們不懂基層護理人員的心如果你們真的還是從考題做下手的話"},{"start":8665.04,"end":8687.812,"text":"我不是只有考試 因為我呼籲我們人愛政府你從考題下手的話 那麼你們就是與笨的距離是零距離啦與笨的距離是零距離 我們所有考試的考題都應該要對準核心職能我想委員不會反對這一點 當然不會這一點部分我們請台灣護理師學會協助我們來做把關檢視這件事情我想應該不是我們自己閉了門造句把它弄得簡單 而是請專業的學會來協助我們"},{"start":8690.233,"end":8701.518,"text":"那好你既然講到那我想請教你一件事你們想做國考改革然後希望考的一些題目或者是內容對考生有幫助請問一下你贊成勞動教育變成勞動護理勞動法規變成國考的項目嗎這個都可以被討論我請部長來說"},{"start":8711.762,"end":8731.509,"text":"我想我們現在本來就護理行政跟基本護理學那其實我想不管關於醫療糾紛跟勞動權益都是我們一直強調出任護理師的核心職能而且是他們在臨床遇到的這就屬於這個定義的範圍之內所以當然我們看來檢討怎麼樣在發明體大綱可以更好來反映它"},{"start":8731.769,"end":8758.766,"text":"你們與其把考試變多次然後與其把題目變少與其把基礎醫學比重降低你不如考一些對基層護理人員比較實用的那那個護理勞動權益的法規就是其中一樣請考試院帶回去研究一下那所以呢這個我還是再次要提醒考試院雖然這個考試是你們的職責那你們也是被動的接受卓院長那種說法嘛但是"},{"start":8762.108,"end":8783.278,"text":"其實這件事情我們之前就跟衛福部在討論說怎麼樣讓考題對準核心職能這件事從2023年就開始處理了對準核心職能絕對沒有問題啊院長講的是考試不要太難啊還有要考考古題啊考古題言下之意就是好準備啊這件事已經進行了一段時間了目前的成果是怎樣"},{"start":8783.618,"end":8802.74,"text":"妳說要考核心職門我絕對沒有意見身為一個專業護理人員沒有意見但是我們是對考試不要太難然後專業技術的不要考然後考考古體有意見因為這個感覺就是整個政府要把護理之門大開方便之門然後只是為了解決護理人員荒這是我們不能夠接受的好 謝謝"},{"start":8805.1,"end":8812.588,"text":"好 謝謝邱惠璐 邱委員質詢 很精彩那其實昨天在草野協商這個三班互併筆的部分這個其實是三黨的一個共識昨天長 前天這樣的一個講話其實有比較簡略那當然他是希望說"},{"start":8825.302,"end":8831.604,"text":"有更多護理師來投入這個職場就貢獻他們的一個專業但也涉及到像邱委員剛所提到的工時 薪資 整個勞動環境這我們都知道 大家一起來所以昨天這個石部長才會在整個抄襲襲傷的部分我相信邱委員也在場那其實各部會裡面的意見就代表整個行政院的一個意見也就是說"},{"start":8854.252,"end":8872.137,"text":"你如果把石崇良部長的意見跟卓榮泰院長的意見加起來這樣就差不多達到你的期待了啦我們質詢成分是這樣 真厲害來 接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在范雲委員來做詢問這個教授局的忙就沒工了來聆聽"},{"start":8881.049,"end":8886.373,"text":"謝謝昭偉有請那個秘書長 劉秘書長請劉建新秘書長是 委員長早安秘書長早安我知道你擔任那個考試院秘書長以來其實推動了默默的推動了很多的改革今天有一個重要的議題想跟您討論主要就是說我們有沒有可能讓國考身心障礙者的考試辦法"},{"start":8909.41,"end":8933.89,"text":"可以比現在更符合CRPD公約的原則我想這不是一件容易的事情但是總要進行那個秘書長應該記得陳俊翰律師吧是那您記得他最重要的特質是什麼他的我知道他的就是他只能用我記得他好像"},{"start":8935.472,"end":8958.324,"text":"沒關係就跟他有關的是你印象最深的是什麼博文強記然後很努力不懈就是能力非常的強不管是各方面那我們這邊擠出幾點他的重要的是他除了是先天性脊髓性肌肉萎縮症患者然後後來就是雙腳又因為電熱毯著火然後來不及呼叫所以雙腳被截肢之外"},{"start":8964.767,"end":8982.093,"text":"他是95年律師高考榜首哈佛的法學院碩士密西根的法學院博士還擁有美國紐約州律師執照是我們行政院人權保障推動小組的委員也是我們民進黨不分區立委的被提名人"},{"start":8984.274,"end":9013.113,"text":"我想你應該知道他不只考過我們的國考而且是榜首他雖然考過但是他被進週刊訪問的時候有這樣的評論他說台灣的考試很僵化很注重形式上的公平最多就是延長20分鐘而且壓縮到休息時間別人休息50分鐘他是讓你多考20分鐘代表你少休息20分鐘這是他講的其中的一個"},{"start":9014.093,"end":9030.78,"text":"那其實其他的身障考生也面臨過國考的議題這邊是2021年的新聞當時考選部不准手指障礙考生延長考試時間就這位無姓考生一氣之下就去法院了"},{"start":9031.64,"end":9048.628,"text":"因為他被考選部駁回他這個申請的部分結果法院後來認定是考選部違反平等原則判這個考生勝訴那我看那個劉孟其部長已經站出來了我不知道現在怎麼樣但是我想讓我講完也許待會"},{"start":9050.132,"end":9067.102,"text":"兩位在回應陳俊漢受訪的時候有提到他在美國的時候律師考試機制是什麼他講很多事情我連講都不用講你看剛剛那個還要去告對不對還告贏了他說他前往紐約考律師執照時"},{"start":9068.923,"end":9092.359,"text":"校方主動租一台車專人司機接送他前往考場車資一千美金由校方支付但是讓他驚訝的是是美國的律師考試主辦單位了解他的狀況後安排口述代筆考試時間延長而且還把考場安排在他入住旅館的深藏專用房間"},{"start":9093.58,"end":9122.58,"text":"讓他提前一天考試他只需要簽一張保證不洩漏考題的竊結書而已這是他講的所以俊翰律師他在三立的台灣亮起來的訪問說我們在這邊好像第三世界的國家他覺得國外真的是把障礙者當人看待不知道秘書長認不認同他講的你覺得我們這裡的考試制度是不是第三世界國家"},{"start":9124.321,"end":9142.34,"text":"對於伸展者對伸展者當然因為各種障礙程度有各種不便那我知道我們的制度上就是說對於延長考試或是考試上的特殊安排我們這邊會盡量做那也會有一組專家在協助我們做相關的檢視跟判斷那當然也許有一些部分會不盡如人意"},{"start":9143.161,"end":9163.808,"text":"因為我們台灣講實在話就是說考試我們很重視一件事就是所謂的公平跟保密所以在考試的時間安排上面就會比較沒有彈性您剛剛講的我大概可以理解是這樣的狀況但是是不是應該做更多人權上的思考這件事我覺得的確值得來再做進一步的討論"},{"start":9166.269,"end":9192.108,"text":"謝謝祕書長我相信美國的律師考試因為美國也是一個非常重視個人主義跟競爭的國家他的制度一定也很重視所謂的公平性那現在我們看一下台灣的問題是什麼就是我跟我的辦公室了解了一下我們的確是我們對身障者不是沒有處理可是你看前面這邊考選部所主管的這個身心障礙者國家考試權益辦法裡面"},{"start":9193.869,"end":9218.405,"text":"真的非常的僵化他位於2小時者延長20分鐘2小時以上者位於3小時延長30分鐘講得非常的具體但是他同時作答時間也就非常僵化了不分障礙類別大考中心我們就先不要看了我們集中在這另外還有一個問題就是審查資格僵化"},{"start":9219.045,"end":9240.807,"text":"就是這個辦法裡面前面它的第十條寫說因第三條制前條規定主要就是視覺、聽覺、上知之體、下知之體等障礙區分以外之功能障礙自閱讀、試題、書寫、試卷有困難者得序名、理由與需求、依其障礙性質還要申請應考等等"},{"start":9242.509,"end":9261.462,"text":"那所以呢他其實是以障礙類別跟障礙程序期間為審查標準那很容易因為他都要符合這些類別忽略了每個人實際作答的狀況就像剛剛那個雖然已經是幾年前了一狀告到法院去的告這個考選部敗訴"},{"start":9263.723,"end":9278.937,"text":"所以因為俊翰律師生前也是我們國家人權就是國家的人權小組那2023年國家人權委員會有提出身心障礙者合理調整參考指引他認為調整的合理性"},{"start":9279.637,"end":9308.478,"text":"是指提出調整的內容及項目與障礙者本身狀態相關適當且有效不違反法令規定及財務負擔的可負擔性合理調整應該要考慮障礙者的自身狀態所以這是俊翰律師說的人權應該要立基於人的固有權利不應該當成是個福利所以我們如何去深化這個人權其實真的很重要"},{"start":9309.238,"end":9331.932,"text":"那我想再跟秘書長講的事情是身心障礙考生報考人數其實非常的少他們真的有來考的人很少只佔公務人員考生總人數的1.9%總人數113年度是16萬那你如果看所有的身心障礙者裡面只有0.2%的人會來考"},{"start":9335.114,"end":9352.641,"text":"所以他已經是突破重重障礙有很多人連來考都其實沒有辦法來考那我想我們怎麼對待這個1.9%的考生那真的是就陳俊翰律師他也是我們民進黨的不分區的候選人"},{"start":9353.982,"end":9373.255,"text":"同時會提名他就是認同他代表的價值我也希望雖然他走了沒有機會自己來質詢身心障礙考生的困難我覺得我們應該要在制度上更有彈性考試院是不是可以去研議一下你們能不能修正這個相關的辦法呢"},{"start":9375.346,"end":9389.991,"text":"第一個就是說其實在做這個判斷比如要不要延長時間或是給予特殊待遇的這個是一個專家小組這裡面就是有外部專家也包含身心障礙團體所組成的所以它不是一個比如部長或者是司處長在做的一個判斷那"},{"start":9391.351,"end":9410.817,"text":"那這個小組因為長期運作他要面對各式各樣所有各種這樣的需求他們也都也許他們心中有一個衡量的方式那如果當事人覺得不滿意的話他也可以再檢據一些資料來再次申請等等那當然不一定最後人人滿意那您講說這個整個的思考的標準要不要再有更寬鬆的彈性"},{"start":9411.637,"end":9429.447,"text":"對 或者說牽扯到辦法的部分我想讓我們回去再做一個檢視這樣子也跟專業界再做一些討論所以就是說從他的角度來看他所講過的這些話我想到現在為止應該沒有太大的改變所以能夠"},{"start":9430.367,"end":9457.562,"text":"不好意思讓我回答一下我覺得那個95年到現在有很大的改變有很大的改變我這個是最新的陳情就是障礙團體透過俊翰律師的媽媽跟我聯絡的我相信他們比我更了解這個真實的狀況好嗎我想那個委員知道我們的審議委員會裡面其實政府19個裡面或17個裡面政府的代表只有4個其他要嘛就是專業的醫療人士要嘛就深藏團體"},{"start":9459.463,"end":9474.959,"text":"請問那個伸帳者本身就是伸帳指的站那個委員會的比例是多少有4個 17個裡面有4位那你知不知道我們正在修的那個帳權法的比例可以去參考一下好不好因為我們正在修那個帳權法因為那個比例真的是太低了啦"},{"start":9478.703,"end":9507.57,"text":"但是我們基本上已經把所有的基本上就跟委員報告我們只佔17分之4政府的其他都是所謂的醫療的專家或者是六個是有那個專業就是他們的這些的團體那17分之4能不能真的反映身心障礙者考國家考試的權益的困境我其實是有點擔憂啦跟委員報告17分之4那4是只有政府的其他的13位都是要嘛就是醫療專家要嘛就是"},{"start":9508.01,"end":9531.756,"text":"身障團體身障團體有六位因為根據我們的障權法CRPD其實是要讓障礙者相關做決定那個比例我們正在討論那絕對不是這麼的低好不好雖然這個法律還沒通過但是衛福部我的理解的版本也遠比你們剛講的高那我剛剛說的我這個質詢不是我閉門造局是有障權團體那透過俊翰律師的媽媽跟我聯繫"},{"start":9533.596,"end":9561.336,"text":"那我也希望就是說我們能夠再往前走好不好認真地檢討一下好那不知道多久可以給我相關的那個初步的報告呢是考選部要負責嗎還是考卸院我們考選部來負責是不是給我們大概兩個月兩個月可以嗎兩個月可以啊那個孟琦那個部長之前擔任教育部次長的時候也推動很多改革希望你這個當成你的重要改革之一好不好我們來努力好謝謝"},{"start":9564.434,"end":9585.519,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員的詢問 接下來請葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不來了那所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢問結束委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":9587.22,"end":9608.273,"text":"委員蔡其昌 吳宗憲 林倩琦所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 並請相關機關以書面來作答覆那今天的議程 今天議程討論四項所列的事案審查考試院及所屬等相關預算案報告及詢答完畢均作如下的決議 另訂其來繼續審查"},{"start":9611.115,"end":9630.404,"text":"那審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項的預算的提案請於5月19號就是星期二下午兩點前提出預時我們就不受理了那本次議程所列的事項均已處理完畢進行到此結束那現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}