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呂處長"},{"start":1746.926,"end":1756.653,"text":"政風處孔憲台孔處長主計處李佩華李處長資訊及電務處張家政張處長公眾外交協調會蕭光維蕭執行長非政府組織國際事務會康家綺康副執行長台灣日本關係協會洪英傑洪秘書長"},{"start":1777.773,"end":1801.86,"text":"台灣美國事務委員會孫錫仁 孫秘書長外交及國際事務學院黎倩怡 黎副院長領事事務局鄭正勇 鄭局長財團法人國際合作發展基金會史立軍 副秘書長財團法人台灣民主基金會廖達祺 廖執行長"},{"start":1804.604,"end":1828.51,"text":"財團法人太平洋經濟合作理事會中華民國委員會許俊斌許秘書長以及主計總處陳台偉陳專門委員環境部人事處吳俊林吳專委文化部文化交流司劉月琴檢任視察"},{"start":1831.246,"end":1834.387,"text":"金融監督管理委員會國際業務處劉建宏劉科長金管會科長沒有到嗎聯繫一下"},{"start":1857.81,"end":1879.146,"text":"核能安全委員會綜合規劃組吳明哲 吳科長教育部國際及兩岸教育司教育參事黃貫超 黃參事衛生福利部國際合作組檢任視察方餘穎方視察財政部國際財政司林翠芬 林科長"},{"start":1888.788,"end":1893.691,"text":"國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會服務照顧處李以珍理科長國家科學及技術委員會科教發展及國際合作處李嘉儒理科長勞動部綜合規劃司高韶英高科長經濟部人事處鄧慧儀鄧專門委員"},{"start":1915.235,"end":1932.788,"text":"農業部國際事務司國際組織科陳玉慧陳科長城務委員會人事室主任谷元玲谷主任農業部漁業署遠陽漁業組賴怡如賴專委中央部觀光署國際組新亞路科科長陳冠竹陳科長"},{"start":1948.018,"end":1951.593,"text":"金管會金管會有聯繫嗎有到了嗎"},{"start":1960.68,"end":1971.404,"text":"本日會議審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部收支公開及機密部分謹作詢答報告區分為公開及機密兩個部分採先公開後秘密報告詢答先秘密後公開時間並記本會委員7加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請"},{"start":1995.257,"end":2011.676,"text":"現在請林部長上台就公開部分進行報告主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早"},{"start":2012.799,"end":2028.431,"text":"很榮幸有機會來向各位委員報告115年度本部主管預算案也藉此機會敬請委員大力支持本部主管預算包括公開及機密部分"},{"start":2029.272,"end":2049.312,"text":"那機密預算將進行報告請就本部主管預算公開部分依施政重點稅入及稅出預算案編列情形即稅出預算案綜合說明三方面請要說明如下首先是115年度本部施政的重點"},{"start":2050.673,"end":2066.919,"text":"本部全力以總和外交來實踐賴總統的價值外交理念還有經濟日不落國的願景藉以提升和鞏固與邦交國的關係並加強跟理念相近國家的合作"},{"start":2068.104,"end":2081.899,"text":"也持續加強推動,能夠創造台灣在外交上面存在的一個角色的重要性"},{"start":2082.864,"end":2101.802,"text":"那另外在非政府組織尤其跟政府國際組織方面也積極推展還有加強國際的傳播來拓展我們國家生存發展的空間那麼以下是幾個施政的重點首先是從故邦到榮邦"},{"start":2102.883,"end":2115.691,"text":"持續推動包括元首外交等我與友邦高層其重要官員的互訪也善用我國的產業優勢整合公事部門的資源來帶動友邦產業發展並強化民主的供應鏈藉此來推動農邦計畫來僱邦進而能夠拓邦"},{"start":2128.018,"end":2150.829,"text":"那第二點是有關提升跟理念相近還有友好國家的關係也藉由邀訪對話還有加強交流合作那以數位實力軟實力來強化我們綜合的國力那也包括從新南向國家推動到中東歐那整個"},{"start":2153.186,"end":2169.594,"text":"包括印太地區第一島鏈這個安全跟經濟的韌性那第三點是有關於拓展國際參與能夠做出具體的貢獻那一方面也是要強加強反制中國扭曲聯合國"},{"start":2171.482,"end":2196.104,"text":"大會的第2758號決議來擴大我們國際參與的空間跟正當性那也感謝友盟包括美國對於這些2758號決議的說明那在國際參與上包括美日歐還有理念相近國家跟我們的一個對我們的支持那"},{"start":2197.981,"end":2211.095,"text":"另外就是第四點是強化擴大我們在台灣在全球產經鏈結上面的角色那善用我國在半導體人工智慧綠能以及新興智慧科技等關鍵的產業實力來洽簽各種雙邊的經貿協議也強化對話的機制"},{"start":2217.882,"end":2229.787,"text":"來建構更穩定的科技還有經貿夥伴的關係第五點是提升我國經貿地位跟市場的競爭力運用新傳播科技的優勢將我國強項的議題透過資源整合還有計畫性的國際傳播能夠提升台灣在國際上的形象跟價值"},{"start":2238.75,"end":2259.058,"text":"第六點是加強跟各部會的合作透過在行政院設立的經濟外交工作小組還有外交部跟各部會的雙部長會議依功能設置專案小組以有效整合各部會的資源能夠發揮總和外交的一個功效"},{"start":2260.029,"end":2281.174,"text":"那麼在第七點方面就是邁向外交學院的智庫化也強化外交同仁化領域專業的職能這個方面因為現代科技日新月異不管是在半導體AI還有各種的新興科技上"},{"start":2282.114,"end":2295.073,"text":"我們外交部同仁也透過各種的機會學習也把外交學院能夠作為人才培養的一個機構以外也能夠持續的跟國際進行智庫外交"},{"start":2297.296,"end":2315.777,"text":"那最後是有第八點是提升為民服務的效能跟品質那不管是在護照還有各種的領悟的合作或者海外急難救助的這些服務都能夠加強來落實那麼在"},{"start":2318.76,"end":2347.723,"text":"本部主管的稅入稅出預算的編列方面呢請做一下重點的說明那本部主管稅入的預算共編列39億3808萬1千元那麼在本部稅出的這個預算共編列415億320萬5千元那支就本部還有領事事務局外交及國際事務學院這三部分來分別報告"},{"start":2348.604,"end":2358.372,"text":"重點如下那第一個是本部公開稅出的預算共編列378億916萬9千元那一業務呢有以下幾個重點第一一般行政編列94億2104萬8千元較114年增列4億7853萬1千元那主要是用於調整待遇住外人員的健保補助"},{"start":2375.386,"end":2396.955,"text":"太購資訊軟硬體的設備等經費第二是有關外交管理業務 編列3億2382萬元較上年度增列1億1097萬9千元主要是增列以多元媒體管道辦理公眾溝通業務以及製播國情的影片等經費"},{"start":2397.975,"end":2405.057,"text":"第三是住外機構的業務編列38億4516萬3000元較上年度增列3億2881萬3000元那主要是在增列住外單位管社這些租金還有修繕費所需要的一些行政支出第四是國際會議及交流編列35億4673萬5000元較上年度增列13億3431萬4000元"},{"start":2427.705,"end":2440.984,"text":"那主要是用在我國優勢產業進行各項的經貿外交的交流跟合作項目也增進具有國際發展潛力的也增進其他國家對我們的了解來擴大邀訪的計畫"},{"start":2442.927,"end":2449.89,"text":"那第五是有關於國際合作局關懷那這個項目編列最大的數目202億8484萬2千元較上年度增列84億8022萬8千元那主要是透過推動榮邦計畫"},{"start":2460.414,"end":2484.806,"text":"藉由台灣在半導體AI等領域的優勢帶動援外發展的工作轉型也擴大跟友邦還有理念相近國家的經貿合作以及供應鏈的鏈結提升計畫的規模跟影響力另外也協助財團法人國際合作發展基金會健全其財務結構增列捐助該基金會基金以強化我援外的能量"},{"start":2485.606,"end":2492.768,"text":"那在一般建築及設備方面編列3億1756萬1千元那包括駐雪梨的辦事處的一個構設構置波士頓辦事處管設的這個建置等經費2億3782萬元那也汰換駐外機構館長坐車跟公務車53輛以及國內公"},{"start":2511.161,"end":2525.868,"text":"物車兩輛跟相關的設施經費7973萬8千元那第一預備金編列7千萬元跟上年度相同那在領事事務局方面的稅出預算編列18億2211萬元那各計各項的編列包括一般行政編列3億2246萬2千元那麼領事事務的管理編列17億"},{"start":2541.596,"end":2559.881,"text":"14億9814萬8千元那第一預備金編列150萬元與上年度相同那在外交及國際事務學院方面稅出預算公編列1億1312萬4千元那各計畫編列的情形包括一般行政編列8481萬6千元那外交領事人員的獎席編列2818萬3千元那麼以上還有包括第一預備金12萬5千元"},{"start":2568.843,"end":2585.838,"text":"那麼最後115年度本部主管稅出預算進行最後的綜合說明那麼在尊潔經費的原則下本部將持續推動故邦跟榮邦計畫那也持續擴大台灣跟全球的產經鏈結特別是希望運用台灣的經濟優勢拓展經貿的外交"},{"start":2588.78,"end":2612.191,"text":"也促進為民服務品質跟效能特別是精進海外急難救助的服務機制那未來人將兼顧政府財政跟外交的需求積極推動各項與友邦及友好國家的榮邦計畫與友邦及理念相近國家共同維護區域和平還有互惠共榮那捷運就是國際的情勢當然錯綜複雜而且變動非常的激烈"},{"start":2614.252,"end":2627.906,"text":"那麼我們秉持總和外交跟農幫計畫的精神也讓台灣的綜合國力能夠呈現在外交上因此今年的預算編列了451萬元"},{"start":2633.255,"end":2656.905,"text":"415億元增加的幅度比較大不過這也反映我們外交工作的重要性與日俱增特別是中共方面在外交上對我們的打壓可以說無所不用其極我們也懇請大院能夠支持我們外交部所編列的預算以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":2668.9,"end":2679.095,"text":"現在公開報告結束接續進行秘密會議我們即將進行清場待會兒移動時請全部由前門出場參與秘密會議人員由後門通過偵測檢查後進入請議事人員清場"},{"start":4714.935,"end":4731.803,"text":"好 我們請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏或錯誤需要更正之處好 沒有 我們議事錄確定現在登記公開質詢的委員開始詢答請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":4741.564,"end":4744.526,"text":"好 謝謝趙薇 有請林部長謝謝 請林部長部長早委員長部長辛苦了這兩個禮拜為了達成斯瓦帝尼艦艦艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇艇"},{"start":4765.799,"end":4792.93,"text":"回來之後又馬上我們巴拉圭的友邦貝寧寧總統又來訪部長也馬上接續接待的工作您辛苦了希望部長要保重身體好我想針對這次外交部的報告當中有提到我們經貿外交因此有關經貿合作還有供應鏈的連結應該有很多可以擴大"},{"start":4794.66,"end":4814.395,"text":"這個的機會那台灣在科技跟產業上的優勢我們參與國際上各項經貿組織和合作相信都能夠實質帶來這個貢獻但是我們看到先前出現在WTO部長會議刁難我方代表導致台灣被迫缺席會議的這種惡力"},{"start":4816.328,"end":4834.589,"text":"就此我想延伸到有關APEC的參與之前也跟部長您討論過今年在中國主辦之下要確保我方能夠代表人可以順利的參與各項會議外交部一定要做更充分的一個準備"},{"start":4836.018,"end":4846.844,"text":"而從這個公開的資訊來看我們在二月初期第一次資深官員的這個會議的時候還是以本身的會籍還有名稱參與"},{"start":4849.145,"end":4865.531,"text":"對於這個入境的安排也有一套特定的模式在運行那我們從行事曆看到接下來會有這個相關的重要會議包括今天到5月19在上海舉行的第二次資深官員的會議以及後續還有貿易部長會議將會落在這個川習會之後"},{"start":4870.782,"end":4888.89,"text":"我們不能排除這個中國會不會藉此再以這個一中的原則加強施壓的這個力道的可能那我想請教部長就是在中國主辦之下我方的這個代表參加APEC會議的時候有無遭受到任何的困難"},{"start":4889.73,"end":4906.779,"text":"那另外外交部會採取什麼樣的一個措施來確保我們的代表接下來附中參與各項的這個會議的時候都能夠平等參與還有他們自身的一個人身安全也提前因應有可能會遭受到的相關干預的行動是不是請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":4908.3,"end":4926.905,"text":"報告委員其實過去中共在APEC都想要矮化我們包括影響秘書處可是在前年在秘魯他們要申請主辦今年在深圳的APEC峰會的時候我們就行使我們對共識局我們的"},{"start":4927.805,"end":4948.039,"text":"就是的一個表決的時候包括他們那時候的一些共同聲明想要放進去那我們都要求他要書面也發函給所有的經濟體來確保我們平等參與以及安全所以當時中共也被迫因為他要申辦所以當時兩年前開始扭轉"},{"start":4948.88,"end":4966.013,"text":"我們在APEC過去常常被他打壓矮化去年到南韓我們也基本上是都有爭取到我們應有的地位雖然南韓政府在有一些接待上並沒有就是說一開始就是平等待我但最後也都有補救"},{"start":4967.094,"end":4981.843,"text":"今年到中國大陸去所以這個我們當然很密切注意因為這還有涉及到安全的問題還有涉及到是不是會被監控那我們跟友盟啦包括美日啊 歐盟美日跟其他的裡面相近國家我們都"},{"start":4982.883,"end":5003.979,"text":"橫向的溝通那我們也擔心中共利用APEC的這個場合去去宣揚一些包括矮化台灣的主張甚至去用這樣的場合去做其他的倡議因為他是共識者所以我們是說實在我們壞話說在前面如果你這個不平等待我最後我們是反對的"},{"start":5004.799,"end":5017.046,"text":"所以我是覺得在國際組織上我們可以說美國在前年在秘魯之後他就講了我們其實是打了一場很不容易的以很少的資源我們有辦法能夠爭取到我們應有的權利他們也是感覺到非常的欣賞至於說今年因為比如說我們有召開跨部會"},{"start":5028.192,"end":5042.908,"text":"是包括行政院跟國安會都有出席然後各部會的部長我們有行前都開過跨部會的會議我本身也親自主持所以我們是嚴正以待那到目前為止有一些他們企圖或可能習慣"},{"start":5044.389,"end":5057.901,"text":"想要對我們可能有差別待遇了我們都及時的去抗議糾正目前都還是平等的情形在參與APEC相關的會議特別是這一陣子在上海要召開的這幾個像婦女經濟論壇我們就請姜文洛經濟部政務次長她是經貿的又是婦女"},{"start":5065.447,"end":5082.731,"text":"所以我們在安排人的時候也是要求盡量由部長本身要出席然後做任何的這個大會在做人權即使跟我們沒有關係我們都要密切注意因為我們也可以發表意見那也可以跟我們的友盟合作那彼此橫向的交換以及因應好 謝謝部長"},{"start":5085.492,"end":5106.544,"text":"我們參與各項的國際組織,不只是為了要彰顯我們國家的主權,台灣爭取參與世衛的行動也都行之有年。川普總統上任之後,他選擇要退出WHO,在今年的1月份正式生效,後續阿根廷也跟著美國正式宣布退出。"},{"start":5107.324,"end":5131.415,"text":"那我想現階段這個世衛還是作為衛生跟醫療的一個議題交流的一個很重要的平台那即便我們還沒有收到邀請仍然不遺缺席那對於在下禮拜即將舉行的世衛大會我想外交部跟我們衛福部應當都已經有充分的規劃包括目前已經公布的這個台灣智慧醫療與健康產業展"},{"start":5132.535,"end":5142.48,"text":"那我想請教部長就是我們在今年爭取參與這個WHA的原則跟規劃是否會有什麼變化那又有什麼新的一個推動的一個活動"},{"start":5143.59,"end":5164.483,"text":"是否已經有跟相關的友邦或是理念相近的國家表達請他們支持我們台灣參與的機會是 包委員 當然美國退出但是包括日本或歐洲很多國家都還是有參與所以我們過去傳統做的各種的不管是替我們發言在大會上或者是說連署 這個都會進行"},{"start":5168.746,"end":5183.092,"text":"可是我們也增加了一個台灣的強項就是我們在智慧醫療跟健康產業的一個展那我們認為世界很大雖然世衛大會裡面沒讓我們有個席次但我們外面可以自己搭個台"},{"start":5184.052,"end":5194.842,"text":"所以這一次我們雙部長會議就外交部長跟衛福部長我們密集召開然後醫療界還有這個公共衛生界以及產學園都積極參與有將近30個以上的這些企業參與這一次的展覽那我想會展現台灣在這個變成可能會大家都"},{"start":5205.571,"end":5230.615,"text":"來看我們有很多場邊的會議也可以在這裡進行所以今天我們用榮邦計畫其中的八大旗艦之一來作為這樣倡議事實上不只WHA這個大會我們在APEC裡面也有所謂的數位健康的倡議我們甚至有提案我們有捐款在促進我們在APEC參加另外像PIV今年在帛琉我們也是會以醫療健康做一個重點"},{"start":5231.175,"end":5241.233,"text":"所以這個主軸就會貫穿我們各種的國際組織跟場合所以以前我們好像都追著這個會議跑我們現在是要化被動為主動去呈現所以說 Who Cares?台灣 Cares"},{"start":5244.619,"end":5261.194,"text":"WHO不一定care很多人但台灣是很care全世界人的健康那它這個所謂的no one behind那我們就是被排外啊所以我們用比較正面的心情跟方式來呈現台灣can help"},{"start":5261.674,"end":5271.266,"text":"這樣的精神先前部長您也表達過,如果美國他會成立另外一個功能相關的國際組織跟衛生醫療相關的我們台灣也會爭取第一個報名,我們這個目標應該都是不變"},{"start":5279.741,"end":5303.82,"text":"我們都要密切注意川普總統他的政府對於這個怎麼去在醫療衛生議題上他如果有新的這個倡議或組織我們當然是會積極來爭取參加的機會好 謝謝部長那就請我們外交部持續的來積極我們相關務實的政策來替我們台灣爭取更多的這個國際參與的機會好 我們會努力好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":5310.339,"end":5331.833,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢好 主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":5338.454,"end":5364.529,"text":"部長早安委員早聽取今天的報告當然就整體層面來講我們都是支持外交部的作為但是面對這個國際的局勢的動態變化戰略情勢非常複雜這張圖也是很複雜我特別提供大家做參考區域安全與利益衝突下外交途徑的探討實際上我們過去常常喜歡單獨用一字這是地緣政治"},{"start":5366.056,"end":5386.136,"text":"事实上现在你发现所有的源头是经济问题地缘经济影响地缘政治然后主导了地缘战略它是三个相互勾结形成的一个整体关系目前因为我们的政府还没有公布官方版的国家安全战略所以这三个议题通常是分项处理"},{"start":5387.014,"end":5415.936,"text":"所以我们看到这个美中这个博弈啊大国博弈加剧事实上马上这个川普总统要去大陆访问那么虽然只有36小时但是他不只是讨论到区域安全的问题经济的问题这个甚至伊朗停火的问题那当然我们台湾的角色跟重要性不能变成了别人交换的角色我们现在常常听说因为这个大国博弈这个桌上啊"},{"start":5416.536,"end":5441.605,"text":"我们没有机会上桌但是呢not on the table可是别人都关心我们on the menu好像变成选项的菜单我这边创造了一个新名词提供大家参考即便我们没有机会与会on the table但是不是on the menuwe are under the tableas an important pillarto maintain stable of the table"},{"start":5442.265,"end":5469.168,"text":"我们是桌下的一个重要支柱让你的table能够稳定这个时候我们台湾的角色就会被周边的国家更看出来所以在国际情势上你看到的基本上不同的场景不同的状况下双重标准两手策略但是实际上我们也看到每一个国家基于他的国家利益"},{"start":5470.046,"end":5498.185,"text":"他是兩手換力前後調序上下施壓也就是說我們需要在我們的外交學院訓練更多的談判人才那談判的過程中間你這個團隊裡面一定要有一個人扮演一個壞人的角色但並不是惡意去戳破對方但是要讓對方知道我知道你的弱點這個時候有我們帶隊的人在座調和頂賴"},{"start":5499.326,"end":5519.652,"text":"如果你完全一廂情願的扮演好人你就沒有多少可以討論的空間因此我們支持外交學院不只是在做我們外交人才的培養也希望未來就像您報告裡講的要變成一個國際型的智庫讓外國有不同的看法不同的學者專家來這邊造訪"},{"start":5521.693,"end":5545.763,"text":"那我個人也有幸跟貴部的配合是 常常有外交的智庫或者學者來我們有機會跟大家做溝通也從另外一個角度幫我們國家做解釋那這個問題我們是支持要擴大外交學院的功能性也建議在他的人才培養跟預算需求上面要做適度的調整"},{"start":5546.423,"end":5560.724,"text":"另外一个问题就是比较困扰的问题就是在今年2月28号美伊跟伊朗的冲突因为这是一个没有预警的情况下那我们有很多的"},{"start":5563.111,"end":5586.548,"text":"僑民也好是做生意的也好或是在当地在旅游的时候遇到这种问题要临时的撤侨比较困难那么我建议成立一个小组至于放在哪个私底下没有关系因为这个紧急撤侨它是一个紧急应变所以需要有考虑到如果以中东来讲我们在这个"},{"start":5587.742,"end":5609.481,"text":"阿联酋可能是在卡达有办事处但是阿布达比没有在都哈没有可是这几个地方我都在参加过国际的研讨会如果我们能够有个预印的计划那么编列一个预算这个预算是时报时销那么低减20低减10我们在国内一定要有个团队"},{"start":5610.509,"end":5625.416,"text":"因为这个情况下一定是要用我们的这个包机charter plan那么跟当地的联系协调那么有多少侨民要撤这个预算可以先行编列但不是自用"},{"start":5625.956,"end":5648.632,"text":"可是这个时候对外交部的同仁来讲是一个手上的筹码这是一个非常重要的而不是临时的时候因为我们驻在中东使馆代表处的人数是很有限的那么也很多是local employee的那在协商的过程中间不如由我们自己成立一个团队应急的时候就直接来处理这个是提出一个建言"},{"start":5649.36,"end":5652.366,"text":"謝謝委員 這個很寶貴另外聽取的就是飛鴻供應鏈剛才因為都做溝通了我這邊只是稍微再帶過去"},{"start":5661.351,"end":5685.561,"text":"因为我们现在外交部所处的角色因为国防外交是一体两面所以非红供应链可能还要加强合作跟经济部跟国防部哪些产业的东西是完全可以不要把中国大陆东西导入里面的因为有些component它的细节那个要过滤事实上不是单一一个单位说我看这个规格就看得出来的"},{"start":5686.061,"end":5712.719,"text":"那也许它只是里面的一个原件但是我们是希望完全的切割所以这个时候跟这个国科会跟这个经济部跟国防部不管用哪里单位成立一个小组大家能够在做讨论或是透过智库的研发这种情况下可以让我们及早掌握而且降低风险那最后一个我就再提一下因为这个兼并兼这个4月20日"},{"start":5714.04,"end":5730.92,"text":"到5月8号的这些国家对维护这个南海安全菲律宾的问题这个演习已经成功了但这次的重点是在巴丹群岛可是因为菲律宾跟中共现在还在这个所谓的黄岩岛民主礁那个地方"},{"start":5731.781,"end":5759.21,"text":"還是有衝突雙方有的時候用海警船有的時候又用外面的勢力介入但是我提出的建議就是因為根據我們內政部的法規這個scalpel show就是黃岩島啊是中華民國的產權起碼是產權登記啊就是說維護我們的利益的時候這個時候我們的立場啊還是要對因為我們跟菲律賓還是友好還要做個說明這點請部長您做一個回應好"},{"start":5760.171,"end":5784.619,"text":"就是有關於黃岩島 民主礁都可以您好 我覺得剛剛委員提到這個所謂飛鴻供應或是說可信的供應鏈因為現在資料經濟都有安全其實經濟跟安全分不開經濟安全就是國家安全所以這個有沒有後台啊或者是這個資料能不能被植入啊這個都變成在這個隨時可能發生所以在這一點台灣的製造力啊"},{"start":5785.552,"end":5805.125,"text":"是美國所要用AI跟中國抗衡如果沒有台灣的製造能力那個再工業化不容易以外其實在這個國防產業上的競爭也會處於不利的地位所以台灣現在是可能是中國之外在供應鏈裡面一個比較能夠垂直整合"},{"start":5805.845,"end":5830.655,"text":"所以台灣作為一個不可或缺的夥伴我想是在我們不只是在這個經濟上也是安全上非常重要的一個角色這也是我們在推動總和外交裡面這個經濟外交特別是其中的科技外交是為什麼現在越來越重要大家要跟我們來往我們怎麼樣去從合作到合資然後也讓我們在公益裡面扮演更重要的角色那也可以有助於我們的國防自主"},{"start":5832.209,"end":5856.222,"text":"有關黃岩島的立場如果需要的時候我們還是透過我們確實如委員所講的因為當然有些領土或領海的糾紛我們有我們的主張那我們一定要表達我們的主張以外我們是希望各自爭議能夠來做一個未來共同不管是海洋或者是說這個一個一個發展好謝謝部長謝謝委員好"},{"start":5862.517,"end":5863.858,"text":"主席好 這個有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":5886.078,"end":5906.23,"text":"部長早,最近部長很辛苦,因為賴總統元首外交的部分,我想部長非常辛苦。我想後來總統也是利用ATA,Arrival and Announce的部分,也成功的到了我們的邦交國。"},{"start":5907.998,"end":5936.209,"text":"不過最近總統回來之後有一些很奇怪的報導就是有關於我們要做一些投資外交部也立刻出來做了一些澄清我也去查了預算書裡面我們其實跟一些邦交國尤其蘇瓦帝尼的部分其實很多人面向部長是不是可以利用這個機會跟大家再說明一下不是什麼只有援助這麼簡單的一個事情部長可以說的部分"},{"start":5937.31,"end":5946.519,"text":"報告員 當然有一些是有被扭曲或誤解我們要盡快澄清那所謂250億這個數字他們去算出來其實是把一些我們的對他們的融資貸款或是說所謂的我們招商未來的民間企業的投資把它算成了所謂我們政府好像一個援外"},{"start":5961.574,"end":5974.809,"text":"這個計畫 這個我們已經通過說明可是我們也發現在史國因為有一些媒體啊其實是長期的有在傳播一些錯假訊息那這也是資安的因素我們很重視"},{"start":5977.171,"end":5991.388,"text":"從一開始宣布要去史瓦帝尼我們的總統的國事訪問的時候就有一些他們的媒體去說我們的大使在那邊怎麼樣貪污"},{"start":5993.53,"end":6007.578,"text":"那你看那個一系列還有包括有一些就是其實在他們國內也一直持續有這樣的一個就是一些錯假訊息然後比較頻率很高的在要出訪的期間爆發出來"},{"start":6010.7,"end":6033.363,"text":"我們當然也有去查有一些IP所以這裡面確實有一些錯假訊息的操弄不過當然有一些是誤會我們也就要第一時間能夠說明給一個合理的解釋所以剛剛委員關心的不管是戰備除油槽這個是可以說是史國史上最大的一個投資案那我們來幫忙它完成這個只是一個投資代管"},{"start":6033.883,"end":6056.669,"text":"我們工程都如期而且都如質在進行中至於說所謂的台灣產業創新園區那是使國提供土地我們來幫忙造商是 好 感謝部長的說明至於那個移工的部分因為我是勞動的學者其實那個移工的部分不管是百里還是藍里都應該要依照我們台灣的很多相關的規定來擺好對 一定的"},{"start":6057.769,"end":6086.268,"text":"但是委員我是說我們台商去一個地方投資比如說去巴拉圭因為有台巴科技大學他訓練了很多人才這個會使台商想去投資我也希望使國除了一般的技職教育我們能夠提升他的人才包括獎學金來台灣未來人才流動是雙向的可以在在地用也可以來台灣用可是一切都要依法行政目前都還沒有這個申請案我想這個人力的互惠其實也蠻重要不過還是要依照相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":6088.39,"end":6106.281,"text":"接下來我們就回到美洲來了基本上好像那天讓我講到巴菲部分有要開放所謂的情類因為那個報導其實很粗淺是不是有進一步的相關細節部長可以跟大家做一下說明"},{"start":6106.841,"end":6126.324,"text":"是 當然開放不管是牛豬或禽類我們都是都有跟農業部都有評估過巴拉圭是一個農畜牧的大國它提供了一億人口需要的糧食有一些食品加工其實對我們來講也是合作的"},{"start":6126.924,"end":6146.87,"text":"所以這個開放是已經符合程序已經都到隨時可以公布的階段所以用巴拉圭的貝尼亞總統這次訪台期間來公布當然也對於台巴關係尤其是巴拉圭國內輿論的支持也是很正面的效果"},{"start":6147.23,"end":6166.274,"text":"那不曉得是不是就是因為看起來是已經做過評估嘛那我們通常這種事情的時候都比較擔心國內的一些這個什麼所謂的這個農業的這個相關的這些這些廚業人員的一個狀況這個報告委員是農業部都評估過也跟我們的所有的產業界的工協會都有過諮商也了解這個影響是這個是有限的OK OK 好"},{"start":6173.655,"end":6199.523,"text":"那我們在看那個我上次其實詢問的時候就有問部長這個洪都拉斯前幾天好像新聞又跑出來我還以為又有更好的消息好像差不多不曉得部長有沒有更進一步好像更好的消息告訴我們洪都拉斯的部分好像前幾天因為其實他的自己的政見他自己會去實現那我想大家也都很"},{"start":6200.863,"end":6221.124,"text":"希望啦因為洪都拉斯過去跟台灣的關係不是說只有白蝦這個問題啦其實我們在做的不在隔壁國家像瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯我們的榮邦計畫像這個阿斯普拉總統最重視三個問題這個中共是無法幫他解決甚至幫他製造問題第一個就是所謂的這個醫療"},{"start":6222.865,"end":6242.144,"text":"第一個是教育第三個就是所謂創造教育的機會那我們的這一套模式跟一帶一路比起來剛好是兩個很不一樣的模式可是一個國家的外交也受內政影響我想做一個總統他可能需要怎麼樣的去形成一個更大的一個共識"},{"start":6244.626,"end":6272.012,"text":"這是因為貝尼亞總統來訪嘛那他有對外講他有遇到這個阿斯福拉總統有談起台灣所以兩個都現在都很清楚台灣我們的外交的模式是比較能夠對他們國家來講是長久是會會比較有幫助而中國的模式是造來很多嚴重的問題希望這個部長努力啦這個很快會有更好的消息這樣子是我們努力中"},{"start":6272.492,"end":6293.79,"text":"那另外就是我再問一下就是因為現在預算嘛就帛琉的部分我們去年有提到那個氫能船的部分不曉得現在的狀況大概是怎麼樣是不是可以跟大家說明一下我覺得這個是蠻好的尤其這個近鄰啊這個對我們的邦交國共同來合作現在這些海洋島國都遇到一個氣候變遷然後還有這個能源的問題"},{"start":6295.211,"end":6323.625,"text":"那尤其帛琉又需要發展所謂的藍色經濟跟綠色觀光所以環境還有這些綠能都很重要然後因此帛琉會樹人總統在去年來台灣去參觀由施政榮這個鴻溪的創辦人所推動的一個叫星能太陽能跟風能結合的全離抗海的保利碼那這個是這一次在帛琉的SPIV"},{"start":6324.345,"end":6346.897,"text":"會去展示然後也會在他們這些國家的元首可是是只有一艘而已啦那當然未來要有一個商業模式也必須要配合觀光包括旅行社能夠導客然後所有的食宿遊購型那這個商業模式他們也在發展當中所以我們認為全世界其實在聯合國有三分之一都是海洋島國"},{"start":6348.618,"end":6367.05,"text":"這個對我們拓展榮邦計畫甚至在加勒比海一些國家也都很高度重視您剛提到的這一些再生能源的傳播因為包括其實我們鄰近國家菲律賓 馬來西亞 印尼也都表達對這樣的一個所謂的零碳排的船他們的高度興趣那我們怎麼去"},{"start":6368.21,"end":6384.469,"text":"把這個模式做出來商業模式所以我關心的大家就是因為這種島國剛剛部長說的其實這個我覺得很有號召力那我關心的是說現在推動這個東西因為那個船的部分算是一些比較細心的科技他八成是科技 兩成是船"},{"start":6385.63,"end":6396.878,"text":"就是那個技術的維繫上跟那個人員的穩定上不曉得那個現在在那個像帛琉那樣的地方上他推動的狀況是OK的嗎OK那邊也沒什麼颱風這個這一些大的"},{"start":6400.02,"end":6418.585,"text":"就是技術上 人力上 包括一些維持的部分不曉得這個部分是不是可以做些什麼這個確實 因為Polymer其實以前在全世界航行過後來是來台灣改裝 加強在氫能這方面的比例所以在興達港其實是已經有下"},{"start":6421.566,"end":6445.632,"text":"其實他已經試航過很多地方了那這是商業模式因為你有一艘船但是他的經營怎麼樣能夠有這個符合Business Model這是另外一個商業要去克服的問題是是是所以比較關心啦這個成功的模式是不是可以變成一個Model以後變成我們跟一些邦交合作的一個方法是OK好 感謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6450.862,"end":6457.205,"text":"好謝謝王委員接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請部長請林部長"},{"start":6474.64,"end":6485.552,"text":"部長早今天我有看到外交部的這個報告裡面有提到就是說外交部除了協助我國NGO積極參與這個國際會議的活動那還有我們也"},{"start":6491.377,"end":6515.751,"text":"積極的促成國際非政府組織在台灣設點來擴大我NGO跟國際接軌那其實部長您在當台中市長的時候您在這個霧峰其實就已經有來打造一個NGO中心更希望形成一個I-NGO聚落那個點就是在台中霧峰的光復新村"},{"start":6516.411,"end":6533.995,"text":"可是很可惜因為台中市政黨輪替的關係後面台中市政府並沒有持續來推動可是我在想中央應該也看到NGO外交的重要性所以在2020年的時候外交部就開始來推動協助中央I-NGO來台設點的專案"},{"start":6537.236,"end":6557.655,"text":"那目前到現在其實也都推行了這個六年當然我有看到外交部的預算總說明裡面有提到就是說其實我們在推動這個INGO的這個部分其實我們在台灣其實已經有開辦了很多的這個論壇可是本身想了解的就是說從2020年推動以來到現在"},{"start":6560.598,"end":6588.069,"text":"到底有多少的這一個 INGO 到台灣來設點那設點的模式是怎樣的一個模式因為像過去在悟風光復新村部長本來您那時候當台中市長的希望就是形成一個 INGO 的聚落可是像現在的話由我們中央外交部來主導是怎樣的一個設點的這個模式那我們先想了解的就是說除了說我們在預算總說明裡面有提到像美國精神和平之風還有"},{"start":6590.01,"end":6605.616,"text":"還有其他的這個的這個NGO來設點之外到底還有多少因為之前的話我有聽說有五、六十個這個NGO在接洽台灣所以目前我們也不是很了解到底我們的模式是怎樣的模式對 請問部長"},{"start":6607.917,"end":6626.454,"text":"報告委員 確實啊 INGO中心是我當台東市長的時候爭取外交部的支持 然後編入前瞻基礎建設的特別預算的第一期因為那是一個神普的舊的宿舍群 非常棒的 光復新村那邊其實還有霧峰國小以前地震留下來的一些所謂的"},{"start":6628.796,"end":6646.888,"text":"災後的博物館是這個實地的那我們你看竹山訓練中心這個對消防啊救災啦所以我們當時在那邊其實有好幾個項目是重點發展包括我們的消防局就現在的消防署長那整個他也當過竹山訓練中心的這個主任所以好幾個項目在那邊發展"},{"start":6647.908,"end":6664.963,"text":"那但是因為後來的市長他不做嘛那這當然這個計畫也就沒有但我當了外交部長怎麼那麼剛好就我會把它NGO的計畫我重新再啟動那當然分三階段第一個階段先有一個任務編組然後單一窗口可以來服務想要來台灣設立所謂的國際組織或非政府組織"},{"start":6669.847,"end":6687.341,"text":"那這個因為香港出了問題之後那其實台灣是大家公認最好的一個Ingo的中心在亞洲所以我們有這個優勢但是怎麼去合作然後現在最重要的是他們要在台灣的時候遇到了一些行政上或稅的問題"},{"start":6688.742,"end":6710.154,"text":"當然未來如果有空間上可以給他們有活動的空間再進一步甚至是我們可以成立一個法人來負責IMGO我們是有分三階段在推動現在已經有一個聯合服務的中心設在我們外交部所屬的地方"},{"start":6712.995,"end":6738.166,"text":"因為現在的量還沒有大到很多那我們也透過活動在結合這個包括跟美國GCTF或者我們舉辦的像在玉山論壇的時候那時候十幾個國際IMGO就倡議要在台灣設一個IMGO的中心所以我們一步一步往這裡在推動那長期來講那如果有個實體的空間像光復新村這麼好那又可以就是在那邊訓練然後在那邊開會也能夠在那邊生活"},{"start":6741.209,"end":6755.4,"text":"那中部交通也很便利所以長期來講我們認為台灣還是要有一個很實體的那這個至於說是不是有人建議說以前的空總或者是哪個地方那這都是在行政院規劃的範圍裡面我們也會積極的去建議"},{"start":6760.724,"end":6775.252,"text":"所以部長您是意思說目前我們就聯合服務中心然後是設在這一個留室服務我們的一個我們所屬的一個算是辦公室吧可是並沒有一個實體類似說這樣光復新村這樣子可以讓他們來"},{"start":6776.572,"end":6801.558,"text":"進駐的一個點就對了所以目前是還沒有可是未來可能我們會選擇比較適合的地點來設立類似一個過去你在台中是理想當中的這個Ingo的聚落的這個概念嘛未來可能會朝這個方向來進行對一個是空間上要有一個活動的地方第二個就是說也可能需要有一個法人機構啊來負責這是那現階段就是任務編組"},{"start":6802.358,"end":6827.796,"text":"是是因為我有看到像115年度我們這個推動NGO事務的經費其實有提升了76%比114年其實我們增加了不少所以也是在想說本期是認為說未來在這部分我們應該著墨的地方應該會很多那當然我有看到就是說當然115年我們計畫就是說要協助這個重要的非政府組織舉辦各項的各國際活動還有是"},{"start":6832.199,"end":6850.564,"text":"還有鼓勵NGO來台灣設據點等等當然這些都需要經費來做推動可是現在目前為止經費因為預算還沒有通過不曉得115年像這個推動NGO的事務到目前為止是順利的還是說有些計畫其實是收阻的"},{"start":6851.789,"end":6864.908,"text":"報告委員這個數字可能因為113年是112022後來減少然後再恢復所以可能數字並沒有說突然間增加到很大這我是跟114年來做比較"},{"start":6867.571,"end":6896.253,"text":"114年是減少了26%那如果115年跟114年來比較的話是增加的幅度是比較多的那當然因為你是必須辦個活動你必須要有人要有經費所以才會提升所以本身在想說對於這個設立據點的部分一直以來都是部長您在當市長到現在一個很重要的一個夢想所以在想說是不是因為這經費的增加跟未來這個非政府組織在台設立據點的是不是有很大的這個關係"},{"start":6897.614,"end":6924.09,"text":"對 報告委員因為我們現在行政院有一個小組在規劃空總的使用當然我們的選址也不是只有一個我們還有其他的地方就是同步推進其實為什麼我們希望預算增加其實更有一個因素其實川普擔任總統之後其實很多的國際非政府組織美國的原款都停止了就是USAID"},{"start":6924.91,"end":6944.23,"text":"那這個時候其實危機入世反而是台灣來讓他們導入到台灣來設他們的總部或亞洲的一個辦事處這個時機是很重要所以我們現在是透過活動另外GCTF這個全球合作訓練架構第11年它有龐大的這個網絡"},{"start":6946.232,"end":6971.846,"text":"可是我們怎麼樣讓一個總部設在台中來台灣提供服務我跟委員報告 除了RNG我們持續在推動之外包括現在 比如我們跟民主基金會合作就叫做一個叫做就是地方民主的聯盟還有包括全球災害處理的聯盟我們也在形成各種的國際非政府組織"},{"start":6973.047,"end":6987.582,"text":"交錯了在台灣 然後讓台灣變成一個印太訓練中心我跟委員報告其實美國對於台灣的訓練的能量跟品質是非常肯定所以我們也跟國務院在洽很多他不需要去夏威夷或到美國本土"},{"start":6988.143,"end":7001.367,"text":"很多印太國家 像我們現在對於全社會防疫任性的訓練消防救災 這個都幫我們邦交國以外 幫非邦交國訓練一些消防人員像越南 菲律賓 甚至現在斐濟 還有斯里蘭卡"},{"start":7004.088,"end":7020.874,"text":"大家對台灣的這個所謂全球的一個訓練中心那當然INGO是其中一個很重要因為各種的不管是我們現在處理全社會防疫任性相關的議題或者是大家認為所謂的城市任性台灣是一個最好的印太的一個INGO的一個設立的地點"},{"start":7022.219,"end":7044.291,"text":"對 因為台灣說實在的受到這個國際打壓是非常的嚴重尤其是面對這個中共的打壓那台灣還是要設法走出去那我在想台灣走出去的方式其實有很多除了實質的這個外交那我在想說這個NGO外交其實也是非常的重要那所以我也希望說外交部在這個部分的話可以呢"},{"start":7044.611,"end":7062.738,"text":"加把勁那把過去在這個台中想要做的事情然後延伸變成這個我們國家努力 未來努力的方向跟世界接軌好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝委員的支持也要拜託支持預算 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢你好 我們請"},{"start":7075.435,"end":7076.621,"text":"有請林部長"},{"start":7086.516,"end":7112.364,"text":"部長好 委員好部長我們今天除了談總預算之外我們先談一個會影響到台灣的整體利益相關慎重的一個中美首腦會談那剛才看到最新的新聞大概是5月12、13嘛開始左右就是5月中那正式可能會開始那在這個首腦會談之前那我們也接受到美方的各個媒體不斷的在詢問說我們有沒有掌握到"},{"start":7114.011,"end":7126.095,"text":"美國會不會做出第一個有沒有可能會說是不支持台灣獨立美國會不會有機會說第二個反對台灣獨立美國會不會有機會什麼都不說針對台灣的現在的這個狀況"},{"start":7128.973,"end":7151.15,"text":"那這三種狀況給台灣的影響都不一樣那最負面的就是中方來去使美國直接講反對這兩個字那反對的話他整體就能夠做由他們的大外宣放入中國的論述那對台灣的影響就會很大那對我國的這個主權影響也會很大不支持也是"},{"start":7152.131,"end":7178.271,"text":"那整體的狀況來講的話如果他維持這個現狀那還是用既有的基調的話那當然幫助會最大那我們也注意到這個他們的國務卿都有不同的有比較穩健的說法但是還是有美國總統他是最後的決策者那他講的每一句話還是會比國務卿的這個影響力更大目前有沒有掌握到"},{"start":7179.437,"end":7202.034,"text":"有沒有可能會有類似相關的路數出來?那若有,我們應該要怎麼來去回應?報告委員,不管是川普政府跟他們的官員在公開的場合或者是說私下跟我們的溝通都有一切表達他們對台灣的政策不會改變但是也有提到中國不斷地要提台灣的議題"},{"start":7203.835,"end":7214.105,"text":"所以這個主觀上也許不是川普總統他們的議程可是他們也了解到中國舉行這個川習會習近平是有可能在糾纏跟台灣有關的議題"},{"start":7225.436,"end":7241.783,"text":"最近大家的討論也已經到最後的階段那我們當然密切關注也做好各種可能的因應因為畢竟還沒有發生的會議我們沒有辦法做完全的預測可是不管最好最壞的情形我們都會做好各種因應那也會再做危機的預防"},{"start":7243.544,"end":7261.759,"text":"避免發生一些意外的事情至少說我們在台美關係上的溝通是很順暢的那最近川普總統包括國務卿Marco Rubio以及他們的政府的發言人其實都一再的是希望在這個問題上已經有一些立場的表達"},{"start":7264.121,"end":7286.519,"text":"也跟外界說明因為中國可能會去談這個問題他們也必須要就是說美國也會表達自己的立場但是文字上怎麼用這個當然都有它的可能的意涵跟影響我們也是要妥善的做好因應跟預防的工作好 謝謝部長那再來就是針對這個"},{"start":7288.615,"end":7317.555,"text":"副交啊副交的部分就是跟一些中南美國家有沒有可能副交的部分我們聽到最近是不是洪都拉斯有一些比較正面的訊息您怎麼看報告委員其實這一次你有發現說我們總統要出訪十國然後美國國務院也有提到一個其實台灣是在國際上是負責任而且有能力貢獻的國家你說其實外交也不外自各自國家的利益的交集"},{"start":7318.786,"end":7344.268,"text":"那台灣其實跟很多國家都有利益的交集我們不是只是理念相近的價值所謂的同盟我是覺得台灣可以就是說可以造福世界的是非常多台灣沒有參與是世界的損失所以在這點上我們怎麼樣在所謂中共的這種打壓然後封鎖之下我們還找出空間去跟其他國家有利益的交集"},{"start":7345.41,"end":7368.832,"text":"裡面當然是很重要但是就是說外交上面共同的利益也是非常重要所以這一點我這兩年來的經驗是感覺上各國想跟我們來往的動機是越來越強而我們也確實是可以做到跟他互惠共榮不只邦交國我像菲律賓甚至像波蘭"},{"start":7370.233,"end":7384.06,"text":"這些其實國家都很希望台灣像在日本也好 歐盟也好或甚至美國的再公約化或所謂再武裝台灣都是最好的夥伴那這個就是台灣的價值謝謝部長我要再次強調"},{"start":7386.192,"end":7415.432,"text":"我們的力量跟我們的利益來去達成我們的理念那包含其實我們注意到中國用各種的這種他們的社群的力量不管是用AI也好或者是用他們的網軍也好特別在攻擊我們在非洲的友邦史瓦帝尼跟我國跟他們的關係不斷的強調說台灣是民主自由的國家那史瓦帝尼是君主獨裁的國家那也提到說史瓦帝尼的這一些民生的問題"},{"start":7416.615,"end":7418.908,"text":"我想我在這地方也正式的跟我們所有民眾講"},{"start":7420.253,"end":7447.364,"text":"我們要用我們的力量來達成我們的理想有些國家跟我們交往的同時他不見得在他們的人均收入上跟我們一樣他可能是來自中等開發國家或者是從未開發國家邁向中等開發國家他可能是不民主的國家或者是從不民主的國家要邁進民主的國家不管是在什麼樣的狀況我們用我們的力量來實現我們對各個國家的承諾所以說我們會協助這些友邦"},{"start":7448.164,"end":7473.287,"text":"這些友邦他可能還是在不民主的狀況之下就同美國當初來協助我們一樣我們也同樣的會去協助別人我想外交的論述他不是只是單純的把一句話不斷的重複如果把一句話不斷的重複的話那是宣傳那不是外交外交學院也好或者是我們的各個外交官也好我們花很多時間在學習但是我們如果在我們的社群媒體也好或者是我們公開的論述"},{"start":7474.858,"end":7484.606,"text":"一樣的就只是用單純的外交辭令說我們是民主他們是獨裁那當別人用同樣的方式來攻擊我們的時候我們卻沒有因應的方法那就不是論述"},{"start":7486.092,"end":7511.585,"text":"那過去這幾年我看到每次我們對中國的這一種攻擊的時候我們的反應就是用同等的攻擊而不是用我們特有的不同的地方來去反擊那我覺得這不對他們說你們就不民主然後你就說我們是民主這種黑白之間的這種對立不是這樣子而已我們國家的綜合國力不斷的在成長然後已經不是只是中等國家我們是超級中等強權了"},{"start":7512.665,"end":7538.807,"text":"不管是我們的科技力也好我們的外交力也好國防能力也好都要相應來去改變我們的論述過去我們說台灣can help我們當然是可以幫助的但是同時我們要知道說台灣現在在世界舞台的角色跟過去我們祈求國際的注視是完全不同我們現在不必再感謝說謝謝你看到台灣不 世界已經看到台灣了接下來呢這是我們接下來的外交論述要怎麼做所以大家要思考一下接下來你要怎麼做"},{"start":7539.778,"end":7562.528,"text":"那日本過去什麼COOL JAPAN嘛COOL JAPAN是一個方式它增強它自己的軟實力那韓國也是它不僅僅是在它的產業能力上面講說我們是一個先進大國那他們同時也是個外交大國他們同時也是一個文化大國你要怎麼論述你自己的國家就是外交能夠產生的論述我們當然可以說一切的實力就造成和平那你要走到過去這種二戰之前的這種體系"},{"start":7564.009,"end":7578.297,"text":"那就是只是用實力來去做這一個論述那這不是我們現在在21世紀最新狀況之下最符合台灣利益的方式現在的論述方式就如同部長你講的它不僅是利益它同時還有理念"},{"start":7578.917,"end":7597.982,"text":"但是我們不能夠只談利益也不能夠只談理念我們是要怎麼樣把我們的力量來換成我們的理念來讓我們自己的國家能夠被各國給重視我們不去祈求別人對我們的目光在任何一個國家我還是要必須強調不管是對日本不管是對美國在現在聯合國的體系之下"},{"start":7598.982,"end":7627.714,"text":"我們就是平等的我們不必祈求他們的關注但是我們能夠扮演我們的角色對世界產生我們的責任那包含論述的時候也提到我們常常都說中國在稀土上面的武器化等等的那我們要怎麼樣證明說我們跟他們不一樣儘管我們掌握出這種科技能力上面的重大的這個影響力甚至我們可以去操作但我們不這麼做為什麼我們不這麼做因為我們的力量是要達成我們的理念而我們的理念是do no harm"},{"start":7628.766,"end":7647.651,"text":"這一點我想我們未來要好好的思考一下我們外交論述怎麼出來外交論述絕對不比國防的能力來的不重要我最後再講一句我們不僅要士兵我們更要外交官在中等強權的現在的我們外交官們的角色會越來越重要當你們表現得越好"},{"start":7648.939,"end":7671.62,"text":"你們都影響到的政府層面又越多那也不僅也是傳統上面的外交官那各種不同的團體像遊說團體也好我們接下來的預算的經費的使用最好是可以在各種的方式各種的渠道來去加強因為我們現在遇到的不是傳統的外交的這種狀況包含川普總統、川普政府他的成員也不是傳統的政治人物"},{"start":7673.151,"end":7690.764,"text":"方向可以更多元那我們會支持預算但是預算的使用方式也要跳出傳統的方法不是說我在社群發幾篇貼文然後幾個讚都不是這樣子那我們怎麼樣達到目的以目的為導向以論文物為導向那這樣對我們的外交才會有更大的幫助"},{"start":7691.525,"end":7709.505,"text":"那最後啦 這個真的國防的部分還是要梁國雄再講一下上次一直要補充的那我們在外交論述上面我們會說我們要增強我們的國防我們來因應這個中國上面的威脅這是第一點那我們第二點就要問說那為什麼中國的"},{"start":7711.047,"end":7730.564,"text":"五利益的投資這麼多但我們台灣都沒有我們沒有指手畫腳我們沒有透過我們的外交管道說中國你的這個國防的這個預算提高這麼多所以是怎麼樣怎麼樣沒有因為我們認知到中國作為一個區域大國他投資在自己的國防是要確保他自己的主權這是可以接受這是每一個國家的權利"},{"start":7731.656,"end":7748.002,"text":"但同樣的他們沒有任何的權利來要求台灣不投資在自己的國防不投資在自己的不對稱戰略中國每多增加1%對他們國防武力的增加我們同時就會感受到多1%的壓力所以我們會相應的增加所以當要求台灣"},{"start":7749.748,"end":7769.637,"text":"這個要談、要對話、要和平的時候也同時要要求那中國的方面怎麼做呢如果他們沒有做完這種下降情勢的做法為什麼要憑什麼讓台灣做下降情勢的做法憑什麼叫我們不要投資這麼多在國防這也是論述這也是外交能夠做的一部分好,謝謝部長好,謝謝維延"},{"start":7775.923,"end":7792.693,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩林佳龍部長請林部長部長辛苦齁 你最近這樣 四五天來回不會幾點鐘"},{"start":7804.707,"end":7819.077,"text":"加起來應該五十個小時有沒有超過啦超過嘛我印象上次去往那來回是很累 辛苦面對圍堵打壓更需要把台灣讓世界被看見"},{"start":7820.558,"end":7838.271,"text":"站在台灣立場 我們外交從來不是輕鬆的那怎麼讓世界看到台灣的存在 台灣的價值而不是去附和那個打壓圍堵人的說法這個其實很重要那我現在要請教 其實現在台灣應該最關注的是5月14號到15號的川習會川習會大概只進行36個小時"},{"start":7843.715,"end":7860.109,"text":"那我剛才看到那個部長稍早有表達川習慧你對台美關係有信心我現在就要請教了這個信心的來源是來自於信仰判斷還是來自於消息來源這兩個不一樣我對你有信心啊"},{"start":7861.121,"end":7888.863,"text":"不用給我任何資料 可能來自個人的相信可是還有一種是要來自於消息來源因為就川習會這只有36個小時來看這種世界上元首級的高峰會大概不會在真正高峰會上去談論細節 談判結論那個是前置會議會把可達成不可達成各宣幾字就是說你自己說自己的話大概在前置會議就會談完"},{"start":7890.484,"end":7909.14,"text":"前置會議把可達成決議的雖然不能達成決議但是你說你的我說我的或者是絕對不要拿出來談的大概這個在前置會議會決定那川習會縱使有脫稿演出大概這幾個結論不會脫離前置作業的範疇我這樣講我不曉得部長認不認同這國際會議上大概常態是這樣子"},{"start":7914.657,"end":7943.606,"text":"當然 幕僚作業由下而上幾乎是到最後的時間是由元首來宣布的好 那前置會議看起來盧比歐那天突然間去接管那個白宮發言的位置直接開記者會盧比歐跟王毅的前置的對話大概就是這個前置作業所以我的問題很簡單部長對台美關係的信心是來自於事前有掌握大概的方向"},{"start":7944.753,"end":7957.149,"text":"他們的結論各自發表各自的看法但互相不同意對方以及不可以拿出來談的部分是有這些來自於美方可靠的消息來源還是來自於你個人的專業研判"},{"start":7958.496,"end":7985.856,"text":"那委員我們綜合各方面來做評估我們當然不希望川習會有意外也就是對於台灣的相關的議題那主觀上我想美方也都有一部分的表達甚至讓外界知道對方要談但是對美方來講其實立場還是一致的對台灣的政策並沒有變可是我想這個外交也涉及談判也涉及到Give and Take"},{"start":7986.656,"end":8003.091,"text":"所以中國到底要拿什麼要讓什麼這個在談判桌上才會最後大家再天平兩端那現在美國要的東西很清楚他也都公開講不管是經貿分泰尼或者出口管制相關的或者是有關於中東戰爭那對中國他提出的議題清單會否同時許願清單這個最後會怎麼樣去交集啊這個"},{"start":8011.519,"end":8026.676,"text":"要密切關注所以我講的所謂我對台美關係有興趣因為台美關係建立在台灣關係法六項保證還有很多的這一些這個政策上但是呢其實在最後談判桌上會怎麼樣我們必須要密切關注"},{"start":8027.116,"end":8044.726,"text":"所以我所謂有信心是說我們要關心但也不用太擔心但是事實上要密切去關注它的發展台美的法律架構關係架構以及過去長期的關係那個是大概有一個一致性跟長久的趨勢但應該聽起來就是談判上總是難免會有變數最後押寶all in"},{"start":8047.688,"end":8073.143,"text":"去突破一個點美方會做 中方也會做可能是在伊朗 可能是在台海可能在西土 可能在關稅可能在芬太尼 我看芬太尼的問題慢慢他們會解決反正你不解決 美國就解決你中國嘛所以我剛才講的問題就是說我們國家的外交部在14號川習會前有沒有來自美方的溝通跟訊息"},{"start":8075.167,"end":8098.016,"text":"我們當然是不斷的都有溝通也了解美方的立場但是有一些是有沒有他們主動提供的說我們接下來會談些部分你不要擔心什麼事都沒有改變有沒有來自於美方主動提供的訊息不管主動被動我們都有互動但是就是說我要講的是說因為美方最後是由川普總統在主談"},{"start":8099.694,"end":8118.449,"text":"我想你也了解就是決策的過程有幕僚作業但最後在談判桌上這個合眾聯合彼此怎麼樣去攻防我們都要非常密切的關注不能夠放鬆的啦四個比較重要的川習會可能台灣要小心觀察的政治風險"},{"start":8119.87,"end":8134.407,"text":"那這些倒不是我自己找出來的不管是從這一個CAP就是美國智庫或者Modern Diplomacy這些其他的相關的我把它彙整起來大概擔心的所謂交易化的"},{"start":8135.188,"end":8159.009,"text":"政治風格或交易性質的外交是我們擔憂的所以有四個面向我一個一個面向請教我們部長我覺得國人很擔憂為什麼台美關係很重要美國是台灣對外最重要的關係牽涉到經貿牽涉到專利科技牽涉到安全牽涉到太多事情了所以第一個在雷根政府時期的六項保證"},{"start":8160.33,"end":8165.836,"text":"那當中有第二項不預先跟中共諮商對台軍售這一點你認為川習會這個慣例或這個基礎會被打破嗎"},{"start":8175.243,"end":8193.342,"text":"這個我們認為還是會在六項保證的基礎啦因為這才符合美國的利益嘛而且對台灣的軍售已經在進行中這個Six Assurances雖然一直沒有完成入法但它在其他像台灣Policy Act裡面多少有涵蓋一些所以會觸及但是美方過去是 我不會跟你談這個"},{"start":8194.443,"end":8212.302,"text":"不管是質跟量我不跟你談因為你沒有放棄武力威脅台灣根據雷根的六項保證以及後來揭露的雷根密件也就是中國沒有放棄武力犯台沒有什麼質量下降的問題所以剛才部長你講你認為還是會在六項保證的架構裡面是"},{"start":8213.069,"end":8233.147,"text":"那第二個 這個是最近各國際媒體提的 提的所謂的因為我們在外交辭令上 不支持跟反對是不一樣的喔不支持說 那你的事不要問我 這叫不支持反對就是 我會更往前站一步 我反對你做這樣的事情不支持跟反對 那我這邊一定要先講清楚"},{"start":8234.168,"end":8248.126,"text":"國人或者很遺憾的像國民黨尤其國民黨現在黨主席常常去混亂這個反對台獨明明是附和中共的說法卻不把說法講清楚中國的反台獨他的台獨定義包含中華民國"},{"start":8249.247,"end":8270.303,"text":"包含台灣包含維持現狀坦白講就是我們這2300萬人的中華民國擁有任何的主權他都反對他都定義為台獨這我相信部長知道嘛所以中國的反台獨是反對台灣擁有任何的主權選擇權你要香港化"},{"start":8271.291,"end":8298.113,"text":"你要西藏化所以去附和中共反台獨其實就在反中華民國它是裡面一個所以這一定要先講清楚所以回來講你認為美國這一次會不會去把這個其實蠻重要的它可能會形成一個根本性的改變會從不支持變成反對有沒有可能因為在歷史上這個都出現過不管不支持或是反對"},{"start":8299.161,"end":8327.676,"text":"那當然隨著這個發展其實川普也講過台灣是台灣但是中共會是怎麼樣去操作語言因為任何跟中國談過的到事後他發表的新聞啊都跟對方國家不太一樣部長講這邊就一個內行話了其實在對外關係上要區別川普個人跟川普政府是就是美國政府會有一個長期的consistency就一致性"},{"start":8329.039,"end":8349.487,"text":"他的administration會根據一些台灣關係法六項保證長期穩定的發展關係可是個別的總統有時候演講講到high了脫稿或者特定的場合講了什麼話我們常發現講完之後白宮會再丟一段說我們的政策沒有改變什麼那個其實就很明顯就是"},{"start":8350.487,"end":8375.366,"text":"民選元首跟政府行政部門這兩個件事情其實有時候不是重疊在一起的所以我要建議外交部在川習會當中有關川普總統的發言跟美國對台政策的一致性跟長期趨勢要非常精準的去把它區分清楚所以有關不支持或反對長期來看是什麼"},{"start":8376.207,"end":8400.848,"text":"另外呢 某一個美國的媒體最近在詢問一件事情我也在那邊救教部長有沒有可能跑出一個不反對統一這件事情你們有沒有觀察到這個訊息那個報告委員 今天問題是說這個Give and Take 習近平要什麼 然後他要讓什麼那這種羞恥啊"},{"start":8402.048,"end":8424.745,"text":"其實就看你怎麼定義它 就是中共很在乎啦沒關係 這個先到外交題下 我說我們外交部有準備好 因為這個快到了嘛 有準備好各種有一種是 中國喜歡跟人家開完會 自己發個新聞稿 跟會議內容都不一樣我們要根據美方相關的說法 要做出一些準備 各種劇本你們都有準備啦"},{"start":8426.045,"end":8445.714,"text":"現在就是有關於台灣是一個民主的這樣子一個台灣人民已經在民主選舉政府這一點其實是美國對台政策非常重要除了和平 解決爭議至於說台灣人民的意願是什麼因為我們經過民主的實踐我已經"},{"start":8448.703,"end":8476.462,"text":"自我肯認嘛 我們是一個民主國家在這一點上我認為美國在跟台灣的政策上面其實在這一點上我要來go over其他的點不過我這邊要提醒就是台灣或者中華民國是一個真實存在的國家這是我們的國家那當然對我們重要的盟友關係這個很重要有一些底線比方說台灣的未來只有台灣人民可以決定"},{"start":8478.083,"end":8500.343,"text":"台灣是美國國務院喔台灣是一個不隸屬於中國的政治實體這個要守住這些才是實質的部分至於一時的言論一時的談話也許會造成影響但是要注意到那個趨勢的發展所以我們在在相關的事後說明或者聲明的時候這要講清楚另外一個高層"},{"start":8501.624,"end":8518.542,"text":"仿的慣例有人在說美方會拒絕賴清德總統未來的過境申請這件事情我覺得很難以去論辯我會建議外交部行動是最好的打破謠言的證明事實上賴總統已經過境過夏威夷了當然你會說不是本土"},{"start":8521.662,"end":8535.519,"text":"賴總統不管去關島去哪裡那個都是屬於美國的領土但是過境美國本土這件事情可以用行動來打破謠言就好像我們兩個一直不聯絡搞不好我們兩個很好啊最近都沒贏而已"},{"start":8536.42,"end":8562.31,"text":"那有人說你們倆現在都不講話了打個電話講個話馬上就打破掉了所以我會建議這個用行動去打破它那第三個是戰略模糊這件事情是因為川普總統被問到說中國可能對台灣採取斬首行動川普就隨口就回了那個是習近平自己的事情他自己去決定但他這個講法是他去做決定但他沒有講美國會怎麼做其實還相當程度還是放在這個ambiguity裡面所以我最後"},{"start":8563.571,"end":8571.826,"text":"請部長詮釋這兩個事情一個是共和黨前國防部助理部長這個好朋友啦這個薛瑞福"},{"start":8572.816,"end":8594.184,"text":"那這個Randy呢 他最近表達說川普總統去川協會 大家不要擔心他不只代表美國 他也代表美台共同利益其實這是一個非常重要的一個談話另外美國在台灣的官方代表AIT處長這一個古利岩他特別提到"},{"start":8595.605,"end":8611.875,"text":"說包含台灣關係法包含六項保證這些承諾不變請我們外交部長以我們國家立場去評論這兩件事情請你說一下好有時候就是看他說什麼跟看他做什麼如果就是看他做什麼是最實際的嘛川普總統從1.0到2.0"},{"start":8614.677,"end":8635.311,"text":"其實包括軍售包括所謂的這個國防安全還有國防這個就是National Security Statute Report或National Defense Statute Report或者是他整個在第一島鏈上的一個目前的一個部署其實都證明台灣是他不可或缺的一個夥伴那至於說"},{"start":8636.838,"end":8655.637,"text":"語言的修飾有些人比較一板一眼有些人比較大而化之當然我剛剛委員提到的就是說他有沒有去觸及到台灣地位的問題台灣的人民這個可以這個民主決定未來以及台灣不屬於中國"},{"start":8656.778,"end":8676.458,"text":"因為這個在27582決議國務院的四點聲明都很清楚這個是立場性的所以說有時候羞恥有一些人風格不一樣我最後十秒鐘提醒其實從盧比歐擔任國務卿之後美國國務院對於台灣主權的描述是台灣是個不屬於中國的政治實體第二個對二戰的"},{"start":8678.362,"end":8699.474,"text":"之後台灣的前途並沒有決定歸屬這個是寫在官方文書以及2758號決議文無赦台灣不只寫在決議文寫在國會決議而且主流的民主國家都有通過決議也就是一中所謂的一中原則沒有涵蓋台灣2758號那個是被扭曲的詮釋這個是美國官方的立場"},{"start":8700.234,"end":8723.876,"text":"寫在雙方文書甚至於兩個次卿助理次卿曾經來到台灣把所有駐台的相關人員來談這個2758號這些事情才是紮紮實實的一致性跟長期的趨勢至於這一次川習會36小時也許為了伊朗也許為了什麼會有一些煙花式的談論那我們要清楚的區分川普或者民選元首一時"},{"start":8725.517,"end":8747.735,"text":"這個時候的說法跟這一個元首所代表的administration這個政府他所長期的態度我是建議外交部把這個東西分清楚向國人說清楚而古麗妍她不會沒事自己發這個聲明啦她在川習會前夕特別表達這個說法其實也是把美國政府也就是"},{"start":8748.285,"end":8772.951,"text":"Trump administration的態度把它講出來這個我建議我們政府尤其是我們國家對外最重要的代表外交部要把這個東西get到在很多混亂尤其在網路時期假說訊息的時代穩定清晰的訊息其實對國人的信心很重要好不好 部長加油好 一起加油 謝謝謝謝王定宇委員"},{"start":8776.88,"end":8793.229,"text":"下面請沈博洋委員質詢好謝謝主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":8801.55,"end":8831.051,"text":"部長好一開始因為今天在前面機密會議的時候其實已經聽了一些那現在因為就是這一個榮邦計劃那其實如火如荼的進行那因為榮邦計劃很多並不能完全的就是公開但是因為我覺得對國人來講因為畢竟榮邦計劃它也在預算蠻重要的一部分所以部長是不是可以再簡略再公開能夠的部分告訴大家具體的榮邦計劃能夠做到哪些事情"},{"start":8832.672,"end":8853.901,"text":"農幫計畫有八個旗艦每個旗艦說台灣已經發展到是可以輸出所以這不只是助人也助己所以農幫所以我們一般來講是做繁榮事實上繁榮友邦以外也讓友邦引以為榮我們的做法就是說我們跟他討論他國家發展的一個藍圖跟政策我們台灣可以做為他"},{"start":8854.801,"end":8870.448,"text":"合作甚至合資所以以前我們是援助我們現在也要從投資的角度所以比如說半導體供應的韌性然後數位治理跟可信網路還有智慧科技園區智慧醫療與健康產業智慧新農業還有主權AI還有這些新人員以及永續觀光"},{"start":8878.552,"end":8904.721,"text":"這些項目台灣都有total solution所以我們現在秉持就是公司協力以大代小軟硬兼施內外這個循環公司協助政府跟企業一起走出去其實也在幫企業找商機其實不要小看我們的邦交國現在全球是有所謂的區域主義所以對外是保護政策包括關稅可是對內是共同市場"},{"start":8905.521,"end":8932.432,"text":"所以我們已經沒有辦法全球化一個供應鏈所以我們一定要布局當地因為它也有一個共同市場對外也有比較高的關稅所以其實為什麼企業現在很願意跟政府公司協力走出去PPP再來就是以大代小一定要有大企業因為供應鏈它是有個生態系所以台灣的這些電子所謂的五哥七哥或是台積電相關半導體他們去哪裡之後它的供應鏈就在哪裡所以以大代小"},{"start":8933.132,"end":8946.608,"text":"中小型的企業第三個就是所謂的軟硬這個兼施是我們以前做硬體的製造然後再賣可能毛三道四可是我們現在軟體的服務系統整合其實這個才是永續的"},{"start":8948.05,"end":8965.325,"text":"比如說我們在這邊做AI ComputingData Center不是賣它AI ChipsAI ServerAI Direct或AI Data Center其實後續的維運是一個很好的商機尤其是我們的應用系統性的解決包括智慧醫療智慧交通智慧製造最後就是所謂內外循環"},{"start":8965.965,"end":8989.801,"text":"就是台灣的內需市場已經減剩過的我們的5加2產業創新五大信賴產業這些需要出海口所以這個時候到的全世界各地包括投資美國 投資日本 投資歐盟投資邦交國所在的像中南美洲或非洲所以榮邦計畫是一個我們的打造台灣成為經濟入國的一個大戰略台灣的綜合國力已經夠到我們可以用"},{"start":8995.945,"end":9011.994,"text":"中型的強國在全世界跟人家合作比如說以歐洲來講再武裝再工業化台灣變成是最好的夥伴他如果不要紅色供應鏈台灣幾乎是唯一的選擇對我覺得這個就是說我覺得他是好的地方在於說當然他第一個維持我們的邦交國"},{"start":9012.975,"end":9038.738,"text":"那第二個就是剛剛講到公私協力這一個部分其實有很多不管是在外的台商還有在台灣的廠商都可以藉由這個機會走出去它也是一種鞏固的方式嘛而且花的也是可能是民間的錢那現在呢就是比較麻煩的地方就是因為第一個像我們剛剛在機密會議的時候呢其實有聽到部長報告幾個具體的項目我個人都覺得是非常的不錯那現在的問題是在於說"},{"start":9039.478,"end":9065.661,"text":"就好像我們的無人機產業現在在國防的時候要去振興的時候很多他們要把這個預算拿掉最主要的原因就是跟你講說會不會是哪一個廠商呢就是因為這個這樣走出去然後呢因為這樣賺錢是不是有弊案等等之類的那一模一樣的謠言一樣都會被適用到外交部的身上所以本來榮邦計畫是好事它是讓我們的產業不但振興還走出世界"},{"start":9066.101,"end":9091.921,"text":"然後呢 可以去跟這個各國合作 然後加入飛鴻供應鏈那他馬上就可能會有相對應的假消息可能跟你講說 啊 這個是不是又在圖利哪一個財團是不是在圖利哪一個政府 在圖利哪一家公司這個是外交部要審慎的地方因為我個人認為 這個明明是一件好事那結果好事 結果被別人講成喪事 那這個就會非常的危險那 但是我還是要講一下 就倒回來"},{"start":9092.501,"end":9118.692,"text":"倒回來就是說我們剛剛講的那個融幫計畫很多就是讓我們的產業跟著我們的外交一起走出去倒回來就是有幫的產品輸入到我國那我現在有看到就是部長在之前受訪的時候有說到說有12家企業都已經有通路協助那我在想說就是台灣的尤其是一些國營等等之類的就是有沒有可能有更多的通路倒回來讓他們的產品能夠有更高的可見度"},{"start":9119.492,"end":9145.393,"text":"是一個是貿易嘛互通有無我們都有跟他們簽可能自由貿易協定啦或經濟合作協定另外一個其實是透過把它的產業建立比如說食品加工所以他本來是賣的是這個農產品的原材料啊可是他經過加工之後就可以附加價值增加我們不只銷台灣我們可以銷到其他國家比如在中南美洲我們可以銷美國因為他到美國可能有一些關稅的優惠"},{"start":9146.454,"end":9169,"text":"那非洲它有很多的共同市場所以我們佈局在史瓦帝尼是有助於我們在非南的共同市場我們佈局巴拉圭是有助於在所謂南錐共同市場所以這個台商我舉個例子有一家紡織業是人造纖維它本來有一半的產品到巴西可是現在被課以20幾%的稅中國卻不用稅所以它在巴西的市場都被"},{"start":9169.62,"end":9191.05,"text":"中國強調要不公平競爭可是他現在到巴拉圭去建廠之後他可以享受免關稅因為巴拉圭跟巴西跟阿根廷跟烏拉圭是共同市場他的競爭力就回來了所以這個時候的全球的一個供應鏈的重組我們的廠商也需要有新的佈局以前是夕陽工業才出去現在不是現在是我們的高科技產業人造纖維裡面機能性的服裝"},{"start":9193.852,"end":9204.709,"text":"這些紡織業都是一個供應鏈全世界只有台灣有完整的供應鏈一個人造纖維去做整個供應鏈可能會落地在巴拉圭這成為在南美洲最有競爭力的高級的紡織業"},{"start":9208.434,"end":9233.954,"text":"那這個也可以做成成衣帽子還有其他的這個各種的產品所以以巴拉圭這次他們來帶了40個企業除了有關於農畜牧業這個大家都知道牛肉豬肉禽肉但是呢裡面有AI算力他們有龐大的這一個所謂ITAB的這個水力發電有7個Gigawatts是用兩個Gigawatts要跟我們合作AI computing"},{"start":9234.594,"end":9256.061,"text":"所以台灣的大企業都有興趣跟他們合作以大帶小那另外呢就是說我們在那邊有個所謂的台八科技智慧科技園區我剛剛講的紡織、食品加工還有綠能另外就是有一些就是涉及到的跟AI的應用我們在巴拉圭已經幫他建置了HEES七年來他全國有"},{"start":9257.401,"end":9284.792,"text":"公家醫院幾乎都建置了這個時候HIS的應用就是AI Computing所以這個時候有一個AI Data Center尤其是Sublim AI就非常重要它可以成為南美洲AI產業最進步的一個國家那也會創造服務人民那像那個電巴我們30輛的電巴輸出之後成為亞松生貝爾尼亞總統跟我講說其實他們的等車的人只要知道後面是要來的是我們的電巴他前面車都不坐"},{"start":9285.652,"end":9301.843,"text":"所以他這一次希望跟我們訂購數百輛電動巴士那我們加上變成智慧運輸系統我們又是非紅供應鏈那政府就有政績因為人民看得見 他用得到所以我就覺得台灣的榮邦計畫其實我們台灣市場有限"},{"start":9302.843,"end":9329.719,"text":"我當交通部長的時候去扶植了這個電動巴士國產化現在可以輸出就是國家隊都是國產的另外無人機我當外交部長的時候把民航法無人機專章讓它上路然後後來是軍用商規跟經濟部合作國防部有訂單然後現在到整個未來輸出單單去年已經有1億5千萬美金輸出無人機這個都是民間產業慢慢的就是如果我們自己有訂單"},{"start":9330.86,"end":9360.42,"text":"當然可以讓他打世界就不是只有1.5億這個時候供應鏈如果完整我們落地不管是在菲律賓在波蘭或在美國這個都是我們一個盟邦計畫未來就是說能夠深耕台灣然後佈局全球讓台灣成為經濟部落國這個是很好的一個契機啦謝謝部長介紹這幾個那麼詳盡比較具體的計畫因為這個對我們來講真的很重要因為我覺得我們常常在講飛鴻供應鏈這件事情但我覺得很多人聽不懂"},{"start":9361.121,"end":9378.059,"text":"所以就是剛剛這樣的一個方式或許可以讓更多人了解整個分紅供應鏈的參與還有我們的傳產的增加還有到對方的產業也可能跟著升級然後一直到他可能因為這個樣子不管他是關稅的優惠還有我們的工作機會他們的工作機會這樣才是真正實質的邦交"},{"start":9378.9,"end":9405.558,"text":"那這個另外有兩個題目這個反正之後審預算的時候這都是在2025年的時候我有問過的問題所以這個我先跳過有兩個問題還有一個是像造勢這個在澳洲比賽我們說要怎麼樣用事先的管道溝通避免觀眾因為這樣國旗被收掉等等之類的那這個等到我們在審預算的時候我再來相關的主決議我再來討論我最後一個很快的稍微提一下就是就是這個駐洛杉磯的這個台北經濟文化辦事處"},{"start":9409.18,"end":9430.985,"text":"我們現在台灣要領這個勞保年金他需要這一個所謂的他有些他是比如說他居住在美國那他要去領的時候他必須要先申請一個叫做現居美國證明書那這個現居美國證明書每幾年要申請一次那我看這一個做洛杉磯的這個TACO他們的有三分之一的文書作業都在處理這一個"},{"start":9431.545,"end":9451.616,"text":"那有些人因為他可能也是在那邊退休然後有一定的年紀那他要去申請這個現去美國證明書當然路途也是比較遙遠然後再加上這個工作量真的變很大越來越大那因為我們現在住外的人員也是蠻吃緊的所以這一個有可能會造成這些同仁作業上的負擔"},{"start":9452.316,"end":9480.218,"text":"那這個呢就是我們因為今天時間的關係或許回去是不是可以想一下就是說有沒有可能比較簡化那種文書的流程那這個可能也要跟其他的這個我們其他的部會來討論一下如果說譬如說某部分他可以先視訊然後先認證然後認證了之後他就郵寄什麼等等之類的我想說可能會有各式各樣的方式但總之因為在人力吃緊的狀況之下看能不能減輕這個駐外同仁的負擔我覺得是蠻重要的事這個請部長我們這個回去跟同仁討論一下"},{"start":9481.079,"end":9506.185,"text":"我們來檢討委員報告檢證變名是我施政的重點所以我會要求我們部內幾乎是各單位其實我認為很多的行政程序我是朝他們 要他們檢辦這個目標來努力一定要站在服務人民的角度所以這一點我們會納入來做一個檢討來希望能夠有改善的空間好 沒問題 謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":9509.378,"end":9511.88,"text":"謝謝陳柏洋委員下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請林部長"},{"start":9534.134,"end":9553.008,"text":"部長好 剛剛其實很多委員也提到我們這一次可能在近期最重要的一個尤其對台灣也息息相關就是川習會那原來是提到他們可能是兩天一夜的這個會面而已那據獨賣新聞的報導現在是三天兩夜"},{"start":9556.491,"end":9568.617,"text":"可是這個最核心的價值裡面就是說他們這一次的會面一般來說好像有把它歸類有三個重點第一個當然就是他們經貿的問題第二個德黑蘭第三個可能就是台灣那對於我們比較跟我們比較息息相關的當然剛剛我們也聽到部長跟其他委員在巡打的時候有特別提到"},{"start":9584.505,"end":9598.74,"text":"就是說基本上他不會改變可是因為二月份跟現在五月份整個世界的局勢或者有很多包括川普總統在國內其實有很多的他的政策的一個移轉"},{"start":9600.422,"end":9603.425,"text":"其實就是發生了問題其實可能都會造成這一次他們的兩大強權的領導人他們在會面的過程當中會有一些不一樣的一個結果那剛剛大家也提到就是說對於我們來說我們的判斷我想也不能過度樂觀因為在現階段裡面如果說他們有可能因為"},{"start":9625.643,"end":9627.065,"text":"這個世界局勢的改變造成川普總統他可能對於台灣是不是有一些質變的這樣子的一個政策轉向這個部分我們到底要怎麼因應"},{"start":9640.056,"end":9666.474,"text":"報告委員 外交當然是內政的延長這一個當然美國也有他各方的勢力在拔河那外交當然也涉及到國際情勢的合縱連橫就剛剛委員講的包括戰爭那這個時候主觀上當然就是雙方面會有一個議程然後去找出交集然後會交換那對川普來講他很清楚的議程他這講得很清楚啦那但是中國到底議程是什麼"},{"start":9667.795,"end":9685.624,"text":"說實在我們還不是看得很清楚因為他會從美國要什麼那我們怎麼去預防或因應剛剛部長已經有提到了因為我們等一下會提到因為現在整個世界局勢不一樣那川普總統面臨接下來的他的期中選舉"},{"start":9686.764,"end":9691.406,"text":"的結果還有他現在面臨不管是國內也好或者他對於伊朗的問題現在懸而未決沒有辦法去抽身的情況之下會對有一些議題做出什麼樣的一個讓步這是我們必須要緊迫的去關注的因為為什麼會提到這個我們先來看一下我們"},{"start":9710.834,"end":9735.36,"text":"一直都說剛剛部長也有提到就是很多國家認為台灣就是我們現在是一個有能力付出而且是一個負責任的國家這也是我們擔心的因為大家都認為我們有能力付出而且肯負責任所以我們不斷不斷的付出在這幾年來我們不管是國家的一些資源尤其是關鍵性的資源包括我們的半導體我們去美國設廠去德國設廠去日本"},{"start":9740.023,"end":9746.328,"text":"還有我們其他對於很多國家不管在技術上面在資源上面甚至在經費上面也挹注很多可是我們獲得的結果到底是怎麼樣我們獲得的回報或外交成就就是我們外交的結果到底是怎麼樣我們也應該要去省思因為看這一次賴總統赴非洲友邦史瓦帝尼的這個過程當中"},{"start":9765.385,"end":9767.946,"text":"我們當然外交部最後還是把這個出訪的任務都把它順利完成可是我們還是有一些問題要檢討因為第一在這個總統出門前一天才被宣布取消這個對我們來說在整個我們在規劃上面其實是碰到一些問題因為我們沒有辦法去掌握到這樣的一個資訊那最後我們是先選擇暫緩"},{"start":9794.053,"end":9796.315,"text":"雖然後來還是順利的可是我們備案顯然第二個備案好像也碰到困難這個備案我們面對的是兩個歐洲的國家第一個德國第二個捷克因為這兩個國家對我們來說我們過去也宣稱現在還是一樣就是跟他的關係非常好德國我們甚至台積電剛剛提到了也去德國設廠然後有很多的互動"},{"start":9819.352,"end":9834.403,"text":"捷克更不用說了 捷克我們在各方面的技術投資啦或者經費的投資甚至面對烏克蘭的問題的時候其實我們都是跟他一起去合作努力的可是居然他們在這個過程當中他們也拒絕我們這個飛航可以過境這個部分我們是有什麼樣的一個精進或者他強化的一個改善的一個方針"},{"start":9847.928,"end":9868.733,"text":"跟委員報告這個報導尤其是這個標題為什麼外交部不評論細節因為我們在外交上有未來或各種可能性我們不需評論你去想想看我們用常理來想你要到歐洲也是要到斯瓦帝尼亞經過非洲十幾個國家"},{"start":9870.612,"end":9884.33,"text":"所以這樣的一個所謂的路線其實這是說它是有很多的必須要很多的條件啊我現在要特別提出來的是因為已經順利回來那接下來因為"},{"start":9885.872,"end":9907.685,"text":"後來部長也有用特使的身份有去嘛可是你經歐洲然後經過中東到10國那最後其實像我們賴總統他是經過澳洲還有菲律賓這樣的路線其實像這樣的一個規劃顯然他剛開始沒有在我們的備案裡面"},{"start":9908.425,"end":9913.349,"text":"那最後我們走的是這樣的路線我現在要講的不管它的結果怎麼樣我們要提醒的是我們在這幾年做了這麼多的努力我們說榮邦也好或者我們其他的邦交非邦交的國家友好的國家我們過去一直說都是跟我們不管理念相近也好或者非常支持我們可是看起來在我們需要的時候他們顯然不是這樣對待我們這個是我們必須要去"},{"start":9938.289,"end":9949.565,"text":"對我們來說是一個警示的這個部分我跟你們報告其實歐國家其實在這次都有發表聲明而且有支持我們至於說細節我為什麼不評論因為那涉及到"},{"start":9952.449,"end":9971.343,"text":"未來各種可能性這個報導是有出入的啦我只能這樣講至於說你說往南線的突圍這個是在我們備案之一這並不是突然間產生的可是我們先暫緩啦你今天如果是備案之一他可能在第一時間我們還是可以順利的去進行第一時間死亡的飛機不在台灣"},{"start":9973.724,"end":9994.794,"text":"所以那時候我們就想到要坐他的飛機嗎這個部分我才是最後要提出來提醒的因為搭乘友邦專機的方式未來如果成為一個新的模式這樣會很奇怪因為我們一直說我們的拓展通通沒有問題而且越來越好那總統赴中南美洲訪問也是借到過境美國的一種方式我們總不能過境美國的時候還是搭乘友邦總統的專機吧"},{"start":10002.737,"end":10018.962,"text":"所以我們還是希望我們堅決支持外交部我們所有拓展的一個方向當然我們也在面對這些困境的時候應該要怎麼去做一些突破可是你在花錢之餘或者在我們現在"},{"start":10020.362,"end":10037.305,"text":"努力這麼多年的結果底下我們現在大家的對待或者他們擔心的部分才是我們必須要去考量的這個部分是今天要特別提出來的一個建議"},{"start":10038.566,"end":10058.642,"text":"這個部分我們當然希望我們都可以很順利然後出訪都可以很安全然後我們也可以讓我們的外交可以盡量的去拓展可是當我們現在已經有這樣的困境的時候我們還是必須要去面對應該要讓它的狀況去真實的呈現"},{"start":10064.235,"end":10084.69,"text":"那接下來就是當然大家還有特別關注到剛剛部長可能也有提到就是說我們在使國這個不管是投資也好或者其他方式的一個合作計畫投資計畫就250億新台幣的這個部分它其中包含戰略除油草工業園區的計畫台商投資計畫"},{"start":10087.852,"end":10095.777,"text":"時國也答應要剝地500公頃供台商打造另外一個台灣這個部分因為第一時間外交部是說這是錯假訊息可是剛剛我們有聽到部長其實有做更深入的一個說明其實如果第一時間外交部是用這樣子的一個態度然後清楚的對國人說明或者對我們"},{"start":10111.465,"end":10134.659,"text":"立法院其實做這樣子的說明我覺得會是更好的因為我們在付出納稅人的錢然後變了這麼多的預算我們到底要怎麼樣花這樣的錢要怎麼樣跟友邦進行合作或投資其實把它說清楚我覺得如果可以接受的大家都可以接受可是我們每次一開始都是說錯假訊息這個會讓大家因為賴總統自己都承認有兩項啊"},{"start":10138.621,"end":10162.593,"text":"就是它的戰略土有草的部分還有它的園區發展的部分那只要把它講清楚就好那就這個部分我們還是會希望像這樣子的一個概念因為總比讓大家覺得說我們投資的或者我們付出的錢都是去興建好像很奢華的這樣的一個會議中心或者他們舉辦這樣的活動會更好這個部長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":10167.531,"end":10181.221,"text":"委員所言甚是啊我們應該在第一時間提供更多的資訊讓外界了解因為畢竟他的金額是非常高的就這個部分我們希望以後我們可以面對真正的面對問題務實的面對問題大家可以共同去"},{"start":10185.344,"end":10199.357,"text":"去承擔然後我們要怎麼樣去支持這樣才有辦法因為每次我們聽到的如果是錯假訊息或者把什麼事情都甩給在野黨其實大家都不太能接受今天如果我們共同面對的是我們整整個的外交的一個環境我想這樣會獲得更大的支持這個部分也請部長在就未來我們希望大家共同來努力"},{"start":10209.205,"end":10215.912,"text":"那另外就一點點時間就我們國際合作跟關懷在今年度我們的業務計畫經費已經達到202億可是它佔了年度的稅數公開預算高達53.65%"},{"start":10226.141,"end":10238.795,"text":"不過我們看到近年國際合作及關懷它的預算保留數還有比率跟剩餘數都大幅的增加相對的來說就是說我們編那麼多錢是不是有些方向是錯了因為他們根本用不了或者做不了"},{"start":10242.179,"end":10261.438,"text":"他到底問題出在哪裡這個部分在預算的時候我們可能會探討不過我們就現在過去就這個數據來看就是說他支用的狀況不佳可是我們越變越高這樣子要如何來改善這個部分是不是簡短的說明一下是"},{"start":10262.267,"end":10285.292,"text":"因為我對這問題也很關心 我也一直在問我們同仁因為執行力的問題 外交確實很複雜 是不是有一些計畫涉及到他們那一邊 因為要跟對方國家磋商或是程序也涉及到有一些投融資的貸款 那是第三方那我們盡可能來改善 可是會有一個就是說 因為它是一個企業"},{"start":10286.38,"end":10303.039,"text":"不是以每年在做我們對這個計畫的援助或投資所以在這個方面跟外交因為跟友邦我們也知道有一些國家的情況我舉個例子我跟我們太平洋有一個國家以前它我們的合作的款"},{"start":10304.681,"end":10319.332,"text":"他都到最後才報所以我們現在幫忙他就趕快先報然後而且就是前面還沒用的先來用不然你會一直累積在那邊我們的新增項目所以改善了很多所以這一點我會再"},{"start":10320.473,"end":10333.963,"text":"就是程序上啊去協助我們的友邦來加速這個程序但是有一些項目涉及到這個就是雙邊政府的諮商還有第三方的關係可能會比其他的部位相對來講比較難用國內的計畫或工程的預算來做同樣的這個"},{"start":10339.987,"end":10350.631,"text":"因為我們為什麼會特別提出來就是所有的邦交國他們的狀況不管是國內的政經情勢或者他們的每一個國家自己特殊的一個狀況或者我們面對的問題其實我們外交部應該都已經有掌握所以在這麼長的時間以來我知道 部長"},{"start":10359.394,"end":10387.344,"text":"沒關係因為政黨輪替畢竟是少數有時候政黨輪替都已經會牽動到我們的邦誼我現在說的是我們在這個投資的過程當中有一些我們可能在把錢要編出來要把它用出去的時候就已經要事先去掌握這些狀況才不會讓我們的編列的預算數通常變高可是它根本執行不了這樣對整體的預算的編列來說這是有問題的這是我們要提醒的好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":10391.068,"end":10410.615,"text":"謝謝馬委員質詢下面請賴斯堡委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部林部長有請林部長謝謝"},{"start":10419.014,"end":10420.256,"text":"部長你好財政部長剛從烏茲別克回來了參加亞洲開發銀行ATB很辛苦"},{"start":10431.496,"end":10435.659,"text":"那我就問他啦 因為我執行過他我就這個名稱 欸 我們是創始國耶到現在為止 到現在還是名稱叫台北CamaChina啊這個東西 這個東西很不爽啊這個怎麼會 到現在為止還是這個樣子他告訴我說 啊這個是外交部在努力的來 部長 給你講 講幾句"},{"start":10455.694,"end":10482.486,"text":"你努力什麼我想報告委員你很資深因為當時我想當時國民黨政府包括郭婉容包括財政部長那個有一個抗議中就一直在抗議中抗議中在參加對啦我知道了抗議中under protest大家都知道他現在總是我們有一個努力目標你希望我知道財政部長有跟他們講他提早一天到就跟他們講明天要改"},{"start":10483.767,"end":10487.723,"text":"要改什么,那就是你啊,要改什么,就不知你了,不知这个,要改什么"},{"start":10488.905,"end":10513.535,"text":"我們啦 當然我們中華民國啦 台灣 或者能夠代表我們的第一個最好的方法改成澳西嘛 我們這次名稱叫中華民國喔改成台灣也可以 或者像WTO的模式 台澎金馬獨立關稅領域 可以吧可以或者再不計奧運模式 潛力是台北 可以吧"},{"start":10514.535,"end":10516.537,"text":"這個也有一些歷史 但不能夠被無限擴充總比台北好嘛"},{"start":10527.799,"end":10537.522,"text":"委員說得對 要努力來發表 目標就在你啊在你外面 二三這樣 努力目標最後就是奧斯曼就台灣 加油啦來第二個 你的次長公 傳習會要來了"},{"start":10546.184,"end":10549.045,"text":"我們台灣變成menu會變成菜單啦這很奇怪齁兩大強人兩大強國的強人他們要這樣子互動不管兩天兩月三天或者是三月或者是一月兩天whatever為什麼台灣要放進來呢為什麼台灣變成menu咧咱來劃寫一下啊是不是要變成是什麼我簡單問第一個"},{"start":10576.709,"end":10583.305,"text":"現在是不是已經全世界都知道了台灣就是中國大陸跟美國共管你回答一下"},{"start":10583.973,"end":10589.436,"text":"我覺得不對耶 當然不對啊我們是主權獨立國家 怎麼會他們兩個國家共管啊他們兩個要說爛 啊我們都沒事啊你要發聲一下啊我今天提供你機會 今天多你多好 你看 給你講話國會殿堂你喊一下 傳習會的前戲你代表中華民國的外交部長講一下不能夠隨便欺負我們 不能夠隨便這個 踐踏我們的權益你說一下 我跟你講"},{"start":10610.936,"end":10637.602,"text":"我很認同川普總統講的Taiwan is Taiwan最自然的話講出來就是這個啊如果有人要用官方的語言羞恥幹嘛那我們再看著辦所以你在看Taiwan is Taiwan中國大陸人你不用跟他講不要理他其實美國的對中對台政策有一點已經是平行了啦只是中國老是要跟美國談台灣美國就是我跟你中國談我們兩個國家之間的關係你老是要扯台灣"},{"start":10638.902,"end":10656.615,"text":"那我們就是說我們自己當然很密切關注啊我們不能夠被人家變成你講的被人家在彈在那邊你們市長講的不是我講的你們的市長說我們變成menu喔這個東西聽了心人碎你不是啦他的意思比較完整是說他是不要啦是心人碎了就是說可以是那樣這樣兩個人兩個大人在那邊講話"},{"start":10660.418,"end":10664.742,"text":"決定我們我跟你講我以前沒有聽到你講這個話你是中華民國的外交部長你應該大聲講我們是主權獨立國家任何有關於談到台灣談到中華民國抱歉我在這裡跟他說大聲的說他們沒辦法代表台灣台灣的2300萬人民叫那個什麼盧比奧跟你講啊叫這個王毅跟你講啊"},{"start":10688.803,"end":10714.521,"text":"然後Ruby已經講了說美國知道中國也很知道美國的立場我們彼此互相知道不要在我們要這個川習院的時候去去找 去做一些破壞穩定的事情所以是不是你們以前長官講的他們大概的結果就是status quo是不是或是選中和平與穩定的"},{"start":10716.522,"end":10732.31,"text":"就是維持線中一直是被中國在破壞中也不會講出說也不會美國被迫講出反對態度不會這個都是假設性啦我們都密切關注那最實際就是說台灣就是台灣"},{"start":10733.854,"end":10740.735,"text":"我跟妳講一個 妳現在十五億訂金喔妳現在結果妳否認250億還真的有250億啊 剛剛的250億啊這個是公出來的啦 因為齁 加起來有250億啊反而是融資的事情跟所謂投資投資就是融資 不可能沒有啦 是他們國家投資這個建設需要融資你玩文資遊戲啊 我跟妳報告國際都有參加這次融資 不是只有我們啦"},{"start":10759.192,"end":10761.193,"text":"我們出多少錢我們出250億會有利息嗎我們幫交國會有些利息補貼我們偷偷就出250億沒有錯啊三個計畫加起來加起來多少"},{"start":10777.725,"end":10804.834,"text":"沒有加起來因為第三個計畫怎麼沒有加起來錢當然可以加新台幣可以加一塊錢加兩塊錢再一次戰略除油潮我有講過了嘛3億美金是他們向國際融資包括台灣我們有貸款另外的所謂的台灣產業創新園區是死亡提供的地我們來招商他已經開發好了多少錢他那個開發是他之前就已經付掉多少錢"},{"start":10806.075,"end":10811.302,"text":"要看我們企業的投資你要去建廠當然要投資啊再來再來再來第三個第三項是哪一項你不是講三項你講什麼"},{"start":10822.237,"end":10843.265,"text":"兩項而已啦只有兩項喔加起來就不到一百億了現在是說另外有第三個項目是委員會說那個是什麼移工多少人的問題我說那根本就沒有一個這樣的一個方案啊所以你是不是我們要做執訊然後未來先回台上或台灣所用這個題目人家媒體人公開在節目上"},{"start":10844.125,"end":10852.572,"text":"公開打臉林佳龍說你說沒有250億他說這史瓦帝尼的官方的資料公開就是250億人家同樣同樣來來來我同樣你講一下我們捐贈史瓦帝尼多少錢在我們邦交國都有我們一定的原款"},{"start":10867.247,"end":10885.072,"text":"我現在知道他們的公佈4.8億佔了該國捐贈的六成如果你守得住4.8億對中華民國不是很多錢但是對他們來講他人口多少 請問人口多少 十萬定理我們的預算都編列在請問你 十萬定理人口多少120萬人口啊"},{"start":10887.213,"end":10888.694,"text":"另外有一個 盛文森大家在談 因為去年底11萬左右"},{"start":10904.125,"end":10910.728,"text":"結果我們奇怪了這個邦家國快要丟掉了因為他債權出來我顧得很好來來來聽我講不要急為什麼2024年我們的捐贈是2億32025年4億多2026怎麼會變成1億9不到2億是怎樣"},{"start":10926.81,"end":10931.793,"text":"這個是涉及到貸款 他們該醫院等等我們捐贈不是貸款 貸款在下面這個格下面這個格 貸款是增加的這個都是官方的資料 聖文聖官方的資料"},{"start":10940.965,"end":10954.776,"text":"你看喔 我們的捐贈我請我們剛從巴拉圭大使回來擔任拉美師長他講的有一些項目來我要強調的是你們的資料看起來一模一樣放棄的樣子你看20242億320254億42026跟2027預估不到2億那貸款是增加的貸款增加到42億這是聖文聖的官方的資料"},{"start":10971.229,"end":10978.774,"text":"因為計劃有執行的程序所以根據計劃的執行程序我們編列預算你沒有回答我啊委員他的意思是說前期是可行性研究再來是設計再來是興建所以這個每一年會不太一樣會集中在某一年可能是興建這樣我知道"},{"start":10997.295,"end":11001.776,"text":"我現在在說 我有頭在羊 你就抓我的手就抓錯地方這個2025年年底 他們就親中政權上來我們貸信會被斷交但是呢 照理講你應該增加給他捐贈 怎麼會變減少減一半 我的重點在這裡你們都沒有回答我的問題因為計畫是延續性 比如說那個什麼那個奧古斯谷那個醫院 我有去凍土"},{"start":11025.507,"end":11038.219,"text":"在一年半前他的經費可能不是每一年平均他是要依他的計劃執行程序寶釵說洪都拉斯可能復交是不是這是他總統講的啊你告訴我部長 你知道嗎 我不知道有沒有機會努力都會有機會的"},{"start":11051.138,"end":11053.56,"text":"機會超過50% 你講完我就下來了這是對方總統在競選的時候談的政見那現在他也說他正在評估怎麼樣去就是說我林某人希望他落實他的政見"},{"start":11067.915,"end":11086.568,"text":"我不要替人家講了因為這個有時候是雙邊的關係我只能說以開放的態度我們也很積極希望能夠發展跟紅蘇拉斯的關係阿斯福拉總統講過跟我們有邦交的時候關係是好於跟中國現在有邦交100倍"},{"start":11088.75,"end":11098.92,"text":"一般人會選擇好一百倍的所以你的意思我讀你的意思就是你樂見其成不是樂見其成我們不只是說樂見其成我們現在說我們積極的我們來推展排紅的關係的發展讓這個Dream come true"},{"start":11113.033,"end":11127.662,"text":"對不對 這樣你就大功労一件了啊外交有些事只能做也不能說啊因為我能夠說的就是到這裡但是我們都會很努力的拜託委員支持預算啦我們就機會會增加很多謝謝好 謝謝賴委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請鄭正前委員上台資訊"},{"start":11149.992,"end":11151.794,"text":"謝主席 我想請一下外交部林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":11160.576,"end":11187.552,"text":"部長好 也好5月9號艾新的總統有陪巴拉圭的總統到南科去訪問也看了我們國網的算力中心等等有特別提到說要分享台灣的一個經驗給巴拉圭我想說講巴拉圭這邊我們就不得不講有一個特別的一個案子就是台巴智慧科技園區因為您在去年7月的時候也特別訪問了一個台巴智慧園區對不對您有去嗎 OK 好"},{"start":11189.753,"end":11190.093,"text":"台八智慧科技園區"},{"start":11219.893,"end":11242.856,"text":"八龜這個合成公司還在PSC公司裡是不是PSC是國會下面的公司嘛對不對OK那因為這個案子其實坦白說我們一定希望說台灣其實能夠用我們既有的一個能量去協助我們的友邦我覺得這一點是無庸置疑的只是在這過程當中的時候我們也希望就是以前"},{"start":11243.416,"end":11270.17,"text":"曾經有過的一些糾紛不要影響到後續我們現在在努力在推動的一些計畫那我們在東方工業園區當中的時候我想請教一下我們所有跟東方工業園區當時所有的法律訴訟是不是都已經釐清了 請部長回答對 已經司法判決了完全都沒有任何的案子還在但是當事人還是有一些質疑那也不算在陳情我們也有拿到他的資料OK"},{"start":11271.15,"end":11292.578,"text":"所以針對這個部分我在想說因為你剛剛有提到說當事人也不斷的在陳情你也拿到資料啦那我在想說它裡面有些東西感覺非常的敏感因為可能牽涉到了當時國和會的一個PSC公司的組成包括當時的一些支票怎麼開金流怎麼走那我在想說原則上我們一定"},{"start":11292.898,"end":11306.754,"text":"不希望我們外交部國會這邊跟台商這邊產生衝突我們希望其實是朝野就是政府民間大家都能夠一致去拓展我們更好的一個外交關係我覺得這是一個很重要的一個"},{"start":11308.556,"end":11327.897,"text":"原則啦所以說您剛也特別提到說廠商如果還持續在做這樣的一個澄清的狀態的時候那會不會部長這邊能不能確保就是我們救案的風險不會影響到我們現在正在努力在推的台巴智慧科技園區的招商還有後續的一個運營的部分"},{"start":11328.537,"end":11352.447,"text":"不會影響 因為八國政府他除了司法判決之外他在行政上也積極在促成這個園區包括這些基礎建設 水電還有道路 以及所有的這些行政協助包括單一窗口那這個也是把一個幾乎是無法收拾的問題我們做個損害控管之後把它轉型"},{"start":11353.627,"end":11368.006,"text":"那現在在招商上也有一些進展有幾家企業都已經這個社工師進來要來做生產所以已經有七頁在我們的台八智慧科技園去落腳了對不對有七家"},{"start":11368.567,"end":11392.375,"text":"有七家OK好那我想特別因為今天是針對外交部的一個預算的部分那我看到了一個一百一十五年度外交部預算第一百八十一八十五頁當中有編列台八工業區管理計劃的費用六千七百六十一萬七千元金額不大啦可是它比較特別的情況是它比前一年的預算多了五千多萬"},{"start":11393.255,"end":11413.208,"text":"多了五千多萬一下子飆升3.85倍我們數字算起來是這樣的一個倍數那我們看到它裡面的所有的內容其實都是一樣的它裡面所有的那個執行內容委辦內容幾乎完全都一樣那為什麼今年會一下子增加五千萬可不可以請部長做回應一下"},{"start":11413.988,"end":11437.985,"text":"包括這個園區有40公頃 那我們有一個所謂智慧營運中心未來要管理 然後台巴的政府提供一站式服務另外就是有標準廠房 那有一些是由投資者自建 有一些是我們就是來提供那這個就是我們政策工具 包括像006688因為有一些建廠它的成建成本如果太高"},{"start":11438.806,"end":11460.168,"text":"它可能很久才能夠有回收嘛所以這個時候我們為了要加速然後也就群聚整個產業在這個地方所以有一些政策工具我們因為現在是個數位科技的時代所以經濟日不落國所以我們也在布局的時候這個園區產權雖然是我們的那有興建一些公共設施那也包括標準廠房"},{"start":11461.349,"end":11473.8,"text":"讓他們儘早的進駐所以部長所以你特別提到00688就表示我們現在台八智慧科技園區它基本上的土地是不出售的全部用租用租跟售都會因為併進因為有時候要看土地的情況有些廠它希望買地自己蓋因為它廠可能更貴有些它實際上說地是政府租給它它只要甚至建廠然後它來租用所以我們這個有模組化"},{"start":11488.332,"end":11508.623,"text":"就是為了很快速滿足每一個投資者的需要像台灣的科技園區全部都只有租賃不會用不完全因為要因地制宜那我在想說因為我在想現在既然總統跟您都特別有強調了台巴智慧科技園區這個部分那我們其實非常的關切不要因為過去東方工業園區的一個舊案那麼來影響到"},{"start":11512.465,"end":11540.452,"text":"我們現在接下來台霸智慧園區後續的一個發展那這邊請部長這邊特別的一個去了解解決那對於我是希望說如果能夠台霸智慧科技園區轉型升級成功原來的投資者他當然也有這個未來一起發展的機會不過因為這個官司已定了我們依法行政就只能這樣辦理所以我都很愷切的跟他溝通原來的投資者要怎麼跟我們的台霸智慧科技園區一起來成長"},{"start":11542.172,"end":11557.702,"text":"因為他有其他的可以開發的土地啊OK好那針對這部分的時候我們希望說這樣的一個好的計畫如果是好的計畫的時候要把之前所有的問題能夠解決清楚而不要產生一些後續的後遺症好不好好的謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":11562.153,"end":11573.201,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請林倩琦林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請黃建斌委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席主席我們有請我們林部長好 有請林部長"},{"start":11591.789,"end":11593.517,"text":"委員好保定保障部長好"},{"start":11594.758,"end":11623.668,"text":"部長前陣子我想外交部同仁都非常辛苦為了總統這個廚房事化替你蒙的這個焦頭爛額我記得本席還有在委員會之前有跟那個部裡面來詢問過這次會不會有這驚喜會不會可能像是行政院長這樣忽然間出現在日本的球場這種驚喜說部裡面這邊回應是不會我們都按照一定的規劃來走果然又是給我一個驚喜那"},{"start":11625.097,"end":11638.988,"text":"但是我想這樣的驚喜還是比較長的因為畢竟國家元首出訪這代表是國家很重要的一個門面那也是關 攸關到這個總統安委的部分這一塊我想日後還是要來好的檢討那"},{"start":11641.05,"end":11654.986,"text":"政大的外交系有一句流傳多年的名言也可以說是這個外交系的這個座右銘就是死於四方,不辱國命這句話是改變至這個倫理的子貢問曰何如斯可謂之勢矣"},{"start":11656.027,"end":11680.973,"text":"子曰:「刑己有恥,死於四方,不辱君命可謂是矣。」所以當可以代表中華民國出任大使在他國的時候所有外交人員從上到下他唯一的信念就是為國家堅守利益跟國格這個也是為什麼永輝說大使是一個有教養的紳士他被派到外國就是為自己的國家的利益說謊的人"},{"start":11681.713,"end":11699.735,"text":"可是近期有很多退休的這個外交官跟本席這邊反映一些讓他們很搖頭而且感到難過的事就是當我們賴總統出訪史瓦帝尼的時候是全國人民都會支持跟肯定的事情但是我們國安局的蔡局長提前採點而且刻意發出這個有趙薇秉的新聞稿"},{"start":11700.576,"end":11715.027,"text":"高調的宣傳這個讓人側目之外也會讓人家疑惑的是難道整個國安會不知道目前我國在國際上的困境跟艱辛嗎怎麼會做出讓外交人員也覺得很傻眼的事情那除了這個之外"},{"start":11716.528,"end":11744.391,"text":"更加的難過而且三就是我們總統府秘書長的班旁安黃崇遠還有梁洪森以及部長您在進鑑王太后的時候以跪姿蹲跪姿姿接受正禮並合照這個畫面全網炸鍋你去看前幾天在網絡點館這裡是真的討論那我想要請教部長就是說你為什麼在見王太后的時候會以跪姿來進行這個動作是誰要求要這麼做的部長"},{"start":11745.79,"end":11765.598,"text":"報告委員 當然史國他的禮儀跟習俗這個進建 因為他們國家是兩個元首一個是史王 一個是王母那這個是 就是對方當然我們去 因為你要知道王母她行走是需要輔具"},{"start":11766.859,"end":11775.975,"text":"他坐著其實他是行動沒有那麼方便所以我們晚輩我們在這個他要"},{"start":11777.011,"end":11805.558,"text":"要拿禮物給我們嘛 這個贈禮的時候我們屈前啊 這個是一個對於長輩 也是對於國家元首的一個尊重一個禮貌 一個尊重他身體的情形也不適合戰戰 就是做這樣子所以我們就屈盡 不管北京人的理性不管原因是為什麼 其實你提到的這個可能是國家的禮儀之類的 可是我們看其實有國王的國家很多 像泰國就有泰王"},{"start":11806.258,"end":11824.371,"text":"泰國的人民進建泰王的時候他要測握爬行李一起要測握爬行李去進建他的國王可是我們看到國家有一種或是其他的使節建過泰王的時候也沒有用這樣的方式也是以鞠躬或是握手的方式那我想這個"},{"start":11826.092,"end":11847.323,"text":"這個應該是對客人的一個尊重嘛因為英國皇室他也不會要求說萊克要旦夕下跪最多就是鞠躬或是屈膝嘛對不對那還有我們在回想這幾年來國際上一些元首見面的時候畫面像2029年的時候美國的總統歐巴馬他第一次訪日他進見天王的時候因為他的鞠躬的角度過大"},{"start":11848.183,"end":11874.704,"text":"被視為卑躬屈膝引起美國國內的這個批評然後到2014年他再一次跟日皇會面的時候他就用握手的方式那川普在2019年會見新的天王新的這個天王德仁天王的時候他也用握手寒暄的方式所以我們可以看到國際禮儀的微妙之處跟重要那部長我相信你處理的工作也太多公務繁忙那跟王太后的這個"},{"start":11876.125,"end":11896.918,"text":"會內一定有事前的幕僚作業所以是幕僚的疏失讓你直接單期下跪還是外交部的幕僚沒有提醒部長要幫國家爭取應有的國格我想哪怕是客水煮便也不能是壓人然後一頭強求不是照自己的這個規矩來走我想現在已經造成這個國格的損傷請問部長"},{"start":11898.719,"end":11926.801,"text":"會不會有檢討內部的缺失有沒有懲處問題我剛剛跟委員說明因為說他們國家的禮儀習俗一樣王母跟我們的關係很像親人那其實她也來過台灣很多次過去然後我們國家元首立任也有去她其實帶我們就像一家人一樣那因為她身體行動比較沒有那麼方便我們屈前去接受她的正禮那這個蹲或跪或者是說比較像半蹬這是國際的禮儀"},{"start":11928.382,"end":11950.029,"text":"我們了解這個是很特殊的情形啦我是說我們跟死國以及那個王母的關係以及他要正理然後行動的情形這個綜合來講我想每一個外交官都會當機判斷就像我們的總統是站著他也特別站起來就在主觀上來講他並沒有說是有"},{"start":11951.225,"end":11967.525,"text":"這個所謂尊卑 還是有其他的方式可以替代吧可是在我們去王母的這個祂的這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個這個拜會的時候其實你要知道王母跟我們台灣的關係是從她她的應該說死亡的先父"},{"start":11969.927,"end":11995.936,"text":"58年的時間喔這樣的關係又在外交之上加上了一層更親密的關係我們都很支持這次外交我們也知道外交院非常辛苦但外交如戰場哪怕是一點點的錯誤它都可能導致全盤皆輸那個引起的骨牌效應可能不是花幾倍的進步我再說明一下如果王牧是坐著因為他已經坐的姿態很低了你要站著"},{"start":11997.036,"end":12020.053,"text":"這個場合的一個綜合的判斷是有外交官我們基於這樣的一個場域並不是說是什麼我們主觀上怎麼會去卑躬屈膝可是你要知道說什麼樣的一個關係是最適合的這有它的情境場域所以並沒有那個說自我矮化或被矮化的情形"},{"start":12021.001,"end":12038.251,"text":"我想本席都了解但我覺得有些東西有些過程裡面可以事先的預防幕僚座位也可以事先的預防那外交人員真的很辛苦我們也了解對於有功的人員我們就要大力的讚賞那但是如果有犯錯的我們也必須要來檢討我想今天"},{"start":12039.011,"end":12058.86,"text":"部長本席會問這件事 今天貴的不是個人今天貴的不是個人 他是整個中華民國其實那個是基於國民跟接近去跟他平等的高去接受他的禮物我是覺得大家也要了解那個實況啦避免 就是說好像變成一種形式上的一種好像 這個是很實質上雙邊的關係"},{"start":12067.949,"end":12071.415,"text":"外交人員也很辛苦,但是未來對於這樣是可以事先的預防"},{"start":12074.264,"end":12100.752,"text":"我想對於外交部的辛苦我們不能苛責但是也謹記著本席今天開頭講的那句話死於四方不辱國命我希望部長跟同仁都能夠為國努力那該稱讚的該額略我們絕對不會吝嗇但是如果要檢討的我們也不能用情熱的方式一切以中華民國為重我想也謝謝部長謝謝辛苦的我們外交部的同仁謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12103.406,"end":12108.61,"text":"謝謝謝謝黃委員 接下來請劉許廷委員上台質詢謝主席 外交部長有請有請林部長"},{"start":12131.007,"end":12157.863,"text":"好 副總午安 委員午安繼續追一下上一次我們討論的題目行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表我們這位顏惠卿這個月前去世那當然嘛 就要進入所謂的調查程序總要把公道還給大家真相公諸於眾那現在看起來好像還在問卷調查的回收階段現在調查到什麼階段 你有掌握嗎報告委員 就是跟你了解的一樣 在調查中"},{"start":12159.012,"end":12164.939,"text":"只在問卷回收還是已經開始約尋因為是行政院在辦理行政院在辦理 所以你不清楚"},{"start":12166.747,"end":12183.238,"text":"不是說不清楚啦 就是說我知道的跟你一樣就是他們的回應我們也都配合因為我也不是行政院的人所以我當然不清楚那你跟我一樣那表示你也不清楚這樣是好事嗎清楚的情況跟你一樣就是只知道到現在在調查中只知道在調查中而且是由這個專業的委員會調查專業的委員會好 這題我等一下會問你"},{"start":12188.982,"end":12208.796,"text":"最後,理論上來講,行政院說3月27日召開第一次會議按規定,所以說啟動的話,三個月之內完成調查。換言之,7月的時候,因為這是考試院講的,要送到保訓會,相關調查的一個結果。本期想要問的是這樣子,我們現在請動外聘委員來進行調查,"},{"start":12210.253,"end":12233.46,"text":"那當然嘛 因為這個 嚴慶章先生的總是家人嘛 對不對 都非常希望可以還原真相可以配合調查 更希望事實上這些悲劇不要再重演嘛那麼 大家都很關注 這個調查的一個結果那當然你講 現在目前為止 你知道的狀況跟我一樣那我多問兩句 我希望你還是可以回答出一點什麼東西啦比如說 行政院現在講 會啟動外聘委員來進行調查當然 外聘委員 為什麼要外聘"},{"start":12233.82,"end":12262.406,"text":"我要確保調查的公平性嘛不要到最後好像本來就預設立場偏向一方總是不好那麼外聘也有不同的方式啊現在就部長的了解是純外聘就全部的委員啦跟外交部跟經濟部都沒有關係還是說我在外聘委員那些過程之中比如說外交部有相關的代表經濟部也有相關的代表要確保大家不同的角度可以公平的來做傳達這部分部長作為外交部有所掌握嗎"},{"start":12263.454,"end":12288.352,"text":"對 我們沒有代表沒有代表那你知不知道整個委員會的組成結構有沒有辦法確保它的公平性啊有啊 它現在是外聘又很專業我想應該值得信任嘛你這回答我就有點擔心就你如果今天很清楚地講現在基於完全的公平我們要抽離這件事情我們純粹就職場霸凌的角度來做真相調查所以沒有外交部的人也不會有經濟部的人非常公平的"},{"start":12288.732,"end":12310.969,"text":"全部都是跟這個無關人那你可以講這個東西是專業的是公平的這是一種做法那如果說各方都有代表確定他又符合真實狀況但是也確保了一定的完整性這也是一種做法但是你只講說他很專業然後是外聘的這個恐怕有點擔心我今天之所以繼續追這個題目就是因為我講嘛從OTN的各種分工來講外交部有代表經濟部有代表大家一起做這個事情"},{"start":12311.409,"end":12329.109,"text":"那我的認定就是外交部的代表在這個過程中顯然受到很大的委屈啊所以我希望部長上上心 稍微了解一下吧這個外聘 整個外聘還有他調查的公平性整個外交部總要積極主張啊 對不對報告委員齁 我們外交部的代表是陳明錫政務次長"},{"start":12329.85,"end":12350.209,"text":"不是 現在他是OTM的副總談判代表 我知道啦我說這個外聘委員會裡面的代表性還有你外交部啊 我就直接一起問啦 你一起回答在調查委員會裡面的角色跟立場是什麼你打算怎麼傳達 怎麼幫助其他員工考公道嘛配合調查配合調查 就這樣萬一他又被欺負 又偏了怎麼辦會不會影響基層外交人員的士氣啊"},{"start":12352.176,"end":12368.392,"text":"因為這個 顏惠欣副總談判代表她是以OTN這個組她當然是進到OTN的體系那她有另外一個職稱是台美會台美會嘛 對不對所以她當然是外交部的團隊之一嘛"},{"start":12368.832,"end":12391.139,"text":"所以我是反覆強調你當然站本位你當然要幫外交部的人員幫外交部的團隊討公道嘛我就沒有講你要憑一己之力然後影響整個走向然後做出一定有怎麼樣的結果這當然你是做不到的這本席完全理解但你至少在這個過程中你要積極主張去避免這個東西做出這要確保它的公平性啊所以你對於細節對什麼你要積極主動要了解啊"},{"start":12391.579,"end":12412.909,"text":"這樣大家才會覺得說整個外交部是很齊心的才會避免這個事蹟受到影響免得下次再遇到這種事的時候又像過去一樣不太敢講或者是求助無門或不了了之這其實對於整個公務體系都是不好的事情嘛對不對部長那我們是不是可以有一點更積極的做法我們都會跟行政院不要提供的資訊或者是說配合調查"},{"start":12415.952,"end":12434.85,"text":"他現在是個獨立的外聘的專業的委員會我們就是要配合他調查你要了解一下他是不是做到完全的公平這件事情從部長的角度確保一下這件事情他是很公道的嘛他如果真的玩百分之百的公平這個也沒有什麼關係啊對不對跟外交部有關的我們一定會全力提供"},{"start":12435.71,"end":12448.055,"text":"這你會後做一下了解啦你再跟本席做回報一併要跟本席回報一樣我上次問兩個問題嘛一個是公道怎麼討另外一個是整個系統性的問題嘛比如說經貿人才的培養啊斷層的問題啊你現在人力增補的狀況啊這我上次都問你啊你講沒問題沒問題"},{"start":12452.436,"end":12468.247,"text":"匯後也沒消沒洗所以我今天我只好再問一次啊這個高階經貿人才的培養穩定傳承台美關稅談判的知識傳承及銜接目前的談判人力是否足以支應等等你總要有匯後說明吧 部長"},{"start":12469.397,"end":12497.708,"text":"因為這是行政院經貿談判辦公室它是屬於行政院層級那因為任務編組所以它是對於人才的這個培養當然會有不足所以應該來加強因為經貿談判不只是經貿或是外交它是總和的各方面的人才 法律啊這都沒錯的但關鍵是發生了這樣子的悲劇之後我們總要積極地謀求改變措施嘛所以我上次有問"},{"start":12498.428,"end":12525.147,"text":"問了之後我希望你會後提供詳細的資料沒關係你這次會後趕快提供可以嗎剛剛我談的這幾個專業談判人才的培養的質量其實需求是很大的當然嘛所以我才希望外交部要你對行政院也有表達會在這個方面做一些制度性的改革這個你會後請你提供完整的資料啦我們總要既然都要幫忙討公道或者希望事情可以還原更希望悲劇不重演那外交部的積極角色就不可或缺啦"},{"start":12525.468,"end":12529.246,"text":"所以我想剛剛我問的幾個問題你會要做比較完整的資料補充跟說明可以嗎"},{"start":12530.359,"end":12560.199,"text":"就我們可以的提供因為這個是行政院經貿談判辦公室你若真的遇到困難的話你該積極的時候你要積極你不方便積極因為上到行政院的時候本席都願意幫你積極啊因為我當然站在外交基層這一邊嘛對不對所以你該提供我是對同委員所講因為現在經貿談判其實跟外交的緊密結合很大那我們過去外交人才比較不是在專門做經貿談判可是現在科技啦 出口管制"},{"start":12560.659,"end":12586.835,"text":"很多的整合都需要所以你未來的人才增補我們希望擴大人才增補以及那個質量提升我們有些問題要怎麼改變嘛這大家都希望悲劇發生之後至少我們亡羊補牢或是往積極的方向處理這部分我們要看外交部的態度請部長好好加油另外一個問題是這樣子大家都還是很關心美伊戰爭的狀況這當然都很清楚嘛反正這個現在到底"},{"start":12587.555,"end":12607.581,"text":"到底要打還是要談還是邊打邊談這已經進入了一個可能沒幾個小時就要消息更新一次的狀況那我們當然管不了這麼大的事情對不對但我們至少要確保我們能源原料的供輸穩定最近這段時間的郵輪透過找到了這個短期的休戰時刻順利昨天有靠港這當然是大家喘一口氣"},{"start":12608.461,"end":12635.788,"text":"鬆了一口氣啊對不對但長期的這個東西總是要說的嘛長期的狀況你跟著外交部曾經有講過就是說我們已經透過管道包含跟伊朗方面也都進行接觸也洽詢了理念相近國家的處理方式作為後續的參考那這些參考或者是這是洽詢的現在的具體措施是什麼可以說明一下好我們當然因為"},{"start":12637.199,"end":12662.281,"text":"跟伊朗沒有邦交 也沒有涉處嘛那我們周邊國家在交涉這OK啊 沒關係啊 你的方法我都覺得很好啊很務實 很多元 但結果是什麼你們有討論出一套比較具體 比較務實的方法可以讓大家嘗試久安嗎這個 就是這幾艘就是世嘉航運業者有八艘船舶嘛對 你都有追蹤嘛 這個我都有查到沒問題的"},{"start":12665.543,"end":12683.318,"text":"我再請我們亞非司長可以的沒問題請跟委員報告其實現在伊朗那邊的話其實他自己對於這個荷姆治海峽的管制機制也不是很清楚他變化性一直一直在變化那美國那邊也一直在變化他所謂的自由計畫一開始讓了一天然後又收回"},{"start":12684.099,"end":12705.024,"text":"所以這個情勢不斷的在變我們剛剛也有看到說日本他有一艘那個郵輪之前有出來過那也是透過跟伊朗的交涉那這個我們也會去了解他們是怎麼樣一個交涉的過程所以外交部的相關管處目前都有積極的在了解中那也要跟著這個美伊的戰爭情勢不斷的再來調整我們的做法"},{"start":12709.345,"end":12723.473,"text":"因為你現在5月7號的時候我們看到一個相關的一些新聞報導等等你講說你洽詢了周邊理念相近的國家嘛那你會參考之後大家有一個比如說互相參採之後的預備方案嗎或者是說大家有經過討論之後的共同結果可以讓它被落實的嗎"},{"start":12724.674,"end":12753.156,"text":"我們現在在接觸中因為這個跟有在接觸中透過一些管道當然這個當然不是所謂的正式的就是因為我們跟他畢竟沒有外交的關係這個我們都願意理解沒有關係但你用務實的方法你可以找到解方式最重要的有去接觸這個我們有沒有辦法你自己評估一下啦市長評估一下部長也評估一下有沒有辦法比如透過外交或者是非外交的務實管道去確定這個我們未來遊人通行有一定的安全保障"},{"start":12755.867,"end":12769.84,"text":"我們當然是朝這個方向去努力但是其實很多國家現在其實那邊我們估計像日本還有40多艘都在和睦之海以便外交條件比我們好的國家對 他們也是困在裡面"},{"start":12771.381,"end":12794.613,"text":"你講實話我都不會為難你他有很多國家的這些郵輪或貴輪都還是困在這個所謂波斯灣裡面所以大家其實彼此都有在分享一些情知那我們也跟這個航運業者三家我們也跟交通部還有這個三家航運業者來思考有沒有其他的一些民間的管道也有在"},{"start":12795.453,"end":12814.779,"text":"研議之中所以還在研議之中沒關係你可以再研議但是這個能源的狀況總是很危險我們現在高度依賴這些狀況它會影響很多層面的安全的這我一定要提醒外交部要積極處理那你後續的處理方式你一定要會後要提供一些相關的說法比如說你可以聯合拿到一定的安全保障這當然是一個"},{"start":12815.519,"end":12830.737,"text":"長治久安知道 我講 但這個難度非常高我也完全願意理解那另外的話 如果暫時還做不到這件事的話那你至少我們要確定的事情是因為他一下彈一下打對不對 變來變去至少要確定他如果進入到不好的狀況比如說開始焦火啦 或者是嚴重的狀況的時候這個我們總要有應急計畫吧"},{"start":12832.859,"end":12851.854,"text":"相關的配套應變等等的計畫你是作為第二手的方案你要能夠馬上補上來嘛我相信外交部的同仁也都在做這件事那我們繼續趕快做一下提醒希望積極應處相關的一些回覆在會後做完整的報告以安民心 可以嗎所以我們在密切注意好 謝謝 市長 部長辛苦了 外交部加油 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":12869.195,"end":12871.958,"text":"主席好 馬上請外交部長謝謝好 請林部長部長好委員好你現在5月18號要跟石崇良部長一起去WHA嘛 對不對在外面嘛 辦活動我下午要開記者會 會再做說明做說明喔 那你有預期說要達到什麼效果嗎"},{"start":12891.752,"end":12920.088,"text":"我們就是要訴求就是Who Kills Taiwan Kills這WHO是不是真正關心那個部長你是去那邊我是效果是說你去那邊你是會接觸到誰嗎我問具體一點好了沒有說現在確定會去的是司同良部長那因為傳統都是有他那這是我們今年有辦一個智慧醫療與健康產業你本人會去嗎"},{"start":12921.068,"end":12947.616,"text":"你本人會去嗎我們有這樣子的一個規劃啦但是很多事情要到當天才知道是不是你要採取抵達後宣布的策略是不是是嗎我想日內瓦是一個國際組織跟會議所以你本人會不會去不能先講就對了當天才講如果是有特殊的原因當天才能講的話我就不勉強你啦"},{"start":12948.556,"end":12957.829,"text":"所以你是會採取ATA嘛ATA去或ATA沒出現嘛對不對大概是這樣我們現在是以史崇良部長為團長你來這邊講話都好保守都不能講然後記者會又講一大堆好像你對國會比較不尊重"},{"start":12964.888,"end":12991.164,"text":"剛剛我已經講我已經有一些回答了我回答到很聽不懂有講跟沒講一樣部長我想跟你請教一下我們其實之前我在這邊我也很關心就是我們的外交系統跟國安系統到底有沒有整合那當然有一些八卦你跟吳釗燮的關係我不去談我們談的是制度跟系統層面但這一次總統要去"},{"start":12992.265,"end":13009.565,"text":"非洲出訪的這件事情 我有感覺到是不是好像也真的有一些整合的問題那一天不能去的記者會是國安局開的 是國安會秘書長吳釗燮出來開的嘛對不對 你本人沒有參加嘛沒有 沒有參加 為什麼你沒參加"},{"start":13010.68,"end":13027.626,"text":"我另有要務你有要務沒有參加外交部有派人嗎有有喔然後因為都是看到吳釗燮然後呢那一天他下午的時候宣布說不去史瓦地尼但是部長早上的時候還跟大家講說我們要去史瓦地尼看非洲舞吧"},{"start":13028.993,"end":13040.748,"text":"很多國人也是因為你講了非洲五霸才知道是哪五隻動物可是後來大家看到很多新聞不管是外媒的報導也好總統府放出來的消息也好"},{"start":13041.26,"end":13060.49,"text":"可以看得出來其實在總統沒辦法去預定出發的幾天前就已經知道遇到困難跟麻煩了比如說可能有三個非洲國家說不給我們航權然後我們的政府也有緊急處理有希望捷克、德國能夠幫助我們讓我們可以過境"},{"start":13062.131,"end":13071.965,"text":"那如果你已經就是說國安系統已經在處理這個事情然後已經知道說可能去不成了部長早上還喜滋滋的跟大家說我們要去看非洲舞吧"},{"start":13073.24,"end":13091.077,"text":"真的會讓人家覺得說是不是國安外交是兩套系統在運作啊這個部長不知道有沒有我的擔憂啊你不用擔憂可是事實上你們做出來就很奇怪要不然你早上跟人家講說去看非洲五八幹嘛啊就去不了啊只是你們是六點宣布不能去啊還是你要唬爛民眾"},{"start":13093.099,"end":13121.26,"text":"沒有 我們有很多的方案在進行中所以你在早上的我們也不能夠自我設限沒有自我設限嘛那你請問一下你那天開記者會的時候你賭信可以成功的方案是什麼因為你賭信去得了你才會這麼的肯定的講說可以去看非洲五霸啊各種方案都在進行中什麼啊 哪一個方案是你覺得最容易成功的因為這個幾個國家有些是已經發給我們的飛航許可後來又取消有些是他摳著還沒發"},{"start":13122.681,"end":13148.312,"text":"那因為路線也很多的因為地球也是圓的所以我們不能夠去暴露我們已經好像可以或不可以我們還是正常的進行一直到所以你開記者會的當下那個都是經過估算的時間你在開記者會當下其實你自己很清楚就是說有可能去不了但是方案在進行當中我覺得你在講非洲無霸的事情的時候"},{"start":13149.332,"end":13165.722,"text":"那個早上那個是前一天不是當天所以那前一天也是一樣啊前一天那時候就知道有問題啦我們就在處理中各種方案對嘛所以都在同步平行在當下當下實際上你可能也知道說可能去不了但是你因為要因為中共的阻撓包括"},{"start":13169.004,"end":13185.797,"text":"中共組組長這另外的事情我現在不在談這個事我現在在談我們系統的我們兩不同的系統到底有沒有相互合作我們未來還會遇到一些情況我現在有一些不能講明因為我不能夠堵掉未來的路所以我現在意思是說其實那時候你在談非洲五霸的時候你也知道說"},{"start":13186.858,"end":13201.468,"text":"當然都在進行中也有可能去不了但是因為你要故弄玄虛一下不能讓人家知道我們可能有狀況所以還是要很篤定的告訴大家以平常心在自然的狀況去應變那我請教一下但是我們做應變計畫都有各種的我請教一下因為外媒報導就是說"},{"start":13206.812,"end":13226.603,"text":"不知道是外交部還是國安系統 那時候有拜託德國跟捷克幫忙但是請人家兩個小時回覆 有這個事嗎並沒有什麼請幾個小時回覆 我跟委員講 包括你講的國家都有發表聲明很支持我們的有沒有兩個小時回覆這個事 沒有"},{"start":13228.645,"end":13234.994,"text":"因為前面的前提就有錯誤因為我不能夠去在這個前提去評論是因為因為現在消息很多嘛如果這個外媒報導是假消息"},{"start":13242.705,"end":13269.254,"text":"那當然外交部應該有些東西真真假假混在一起不是啊 不想在這邊耍嘴皮子啦我現在講的事情是說如果你認為兩個小時這個事情是假消息外交部當然應該嚴正的抗議我之前常常看到有一些國外的媒體報導不利於外交部外交部都會抗議啊像CNN說說你在美國要請客沒有請到你那時候還罵CNN在認知作戰啊我報告委員齁包括美國 日本還有歐洲這些國家都很幫我們發聲不是啊"},{"start":13271.135,"end":13274.236,"text":"部長我講的跟你講的不一樣的事情謝謝他們幫我們發聲我現在講的是說如果有媒體報導錯誤的訊息外交部應該要嚴正的澄清例如那個外媒講說怎麼我們要求德國等一下我還沒講完不用那麼害怕了"},{"start":13287.341,"end":13298.012,"text":"我要求德國捷克兩個小時給回覆這個事情是假消息你剛剛講說是假消息那外交部就說沒這回事為什麼要做這個動作因為我不能夠我們不能夠讓其他人認為說台灣那麼高傲"},{"start":13305.72,"end":13318.953,"text":"一般的你說民眾去外交部發文給外交部都不會講說你兩小時內給我回文國家對國家可以說兩小時直接說你要答應我不可能 這不可能是嘛你的智慧那麼高啊"},{"start":13319.969,"end":13332.96,"text":"你這個前面這個前提你覺得會出現嗎不是 那你也要有一個說法嘛因為我說的東西才會陷入到那看你怎麼說嘛前面好像假設的是那就是看你怎麼說嘛你現在是什麼事都不做你現在講的是技術面的問題"},{"start":13339.925,"end":13365.639,"text":"我是說你至少有動作嘛至於說你要怎麼說怎麼說讓人家覺得說我有否認但是又沒有陷入到別人的陷阱裡這本來就是外交部的工作啊你智慧部長智慧這麼高怎麼可能這個都做不到我們通常說不予評論嘛就是這就是不予評論就會讓人家覺得有這回事嘛沒有因為公司啊你不要陷入一些問題這件事情讓大家覺得奇怪的是外交部明明其他事情都很快可以否認為什麼光是這個沒否認這會影響台灣的形象嘛"},{"start":13368.14,"end":13378.25,"text":"就其他國家會認為說台灣是中華民國是真的會這樣嗎對不對報告委員我有順利擔任總統特使到達史瓦帝尼"},{"start":13379.522,"end":13408.351,"text":"有相關嗎 跟我講的有相關嗎當然就是路線之一啊跟我講的有相關嗎我講的是德國跟捷克我不能告訴你我怎麼走的意思不是啦 不能跟你講其實有的時候我們在質詢台上可以很清楚的知道你什麼時候在閃問題或有的問題好像可能我們講中了你不好講就是你扯東扯西的時候我明明是在講捷克跟德國你扯到說你有代表特使去指挖地你我在講東 你在扯西這就代表說那個問題不好回答嘛"},{"start":13408.951,"end":13437.15,"text":"那不老回答原因就是我講對了嘛不是不老回答我跟你講齁我今天不是在跟你辯論比賽非要你認錯啦好不好我今天是要跟你講說如果你沒有做那件事情的話沒有澄清大家會覺得說欸是不是真的我認為以後如果發生類似的事情外交部應該要有一個聲明那那個聲明怎麼擬那個可以擬到說不要到人家的陷阱又可以讓人家覺得說我們否認這件事那就是部長的智慧因為你剛剛一直在那邊什麼我也不知道你扯到我智慧幹嘛"},{"start":13438.01,"end":13463.955,"text":"部長我真的你感覺好像在跟我聊天不是在討論事情的智慧不起煩惱慈悲沒有敵人對但是因為你是外交部長如果你是在深山上面修行的隨便你講但是因為現在你負責的是外交我們國家的外交很重要我現在回覆一個情境當時我們總統要在順利出版之前媒體在問那個問題的時候你怎麼回答可以避免"},{"start":13464.875,"end":13481.245,"text":"透露任何訊息因為我們有很多的可能的路要走所以你講了一個不行之後他們可能會限定會針對另外一個這個複雜的程度我跟委員報告真的我們還保留這樣的一個空間所以"},{"start":13482.486,"end":13497.151,"text":"我們的這些有理內三進國家跟我們關係都很好的這個我跟你講你又在扯別的了我講的是德國跟捷克那個是事後外媒的報導你在跟我扯說事前要怎麼講沒關係我知道你不好回答啦所以你才會"},{"start":13497.751,"end":13513.959,"text":"讓人家覺得部長為什麼好像聽不懂問題明明定問題那麼具體要扯東扯西講從外太空最後我們有順利成為總統的出訪這個才是我們當時外交部門在回答的時候這個也有很多討論空間這個也有很團觀的時間關係我現在只是針對德國捷克這一段那你不好回答我就不佔用大家的時間了謝謝我們的體諒跟包容"},{"start":13526.164,"end":13529.705,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場以外 軍已發言完畢 報告及詢問結束"},{"start":13552.321,"end":13568.434,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請外交部於兩週內以書面答覆委員有指定期限者從其鎖定以上如有涉及機密的部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理"},{"start":13569.855,"end":13585.159,"text":"那另外還有就是之前有非常多位委員關切的就是我們駐美大使的之前有一些相關的霸凌的事件那有要求要提供書面資料有準備了嗎都有所有委員都有好謝謝"},{"start":13592.677,"end":13612.729,"text":"那另外在115年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部收支公開及機密的部分本日完成報告及詢答另則期繼續審查預算提案於5月29日中午12時截止收件本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}