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宣讀完畢"},{"start":1865.253,"end":1890.66,"text":"法院會現在對台南愛進行記名投票表決由各黨團各推派一人擔任投開票監察委員有關投票會場等相關事務均循例辦理設置選票處四個票軌兩個在投票表決之前做下列兩項宣告一投開票監察員由國民黨黨團推派輸委員侵權"},{"start":1891.46,"end":1914.792,"text":"民進黨黨團推派陳委員培語台灣民眾黨黨團推派劉委員舒斌擔任二投票截止時間為上午11點5分如全體委員於上午11點5分前均已投票完畢則提前開票現在請工作人員佈置投票所並請投開票監察員執行監察職務"},{"start":2051.901,"end":2076.955,"text":"報告院會,未必於領票及投票,領票時請各位委員分區領票編號第一號至第六十號委員請至南區領票編號第六十一號至第一百一十三號委員請至北區領票投票時發言台兩側各設有一個票軌,均可投入現在請各位委員開始分區領票及投票"},{"start":5350.185,"end":5356.151,"text":"法院會距離投票截止時間還有三分鐘請上位投票的委員趕快投票"},{"start":5525.831,"end":5533.719,"text":"法院會投票截止時間上午11點5分已到現在按鈴並請工作人員佈置開票所"},{"start":5570.257,"end":5585.745,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5604.223,"end":5604.263,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5630.925,"end":5641.674,"text":"現在發票報告書立法院對總統提出彈劾案投票表決發票報告書領票委員106人為領票委員7人合計113人中華民國115年5月19日"},{"start":5650.114,"end":5663.852,"text":"投開票監察員劉淑斌、陳培宇、蘇清泉抱怨會現在開始開票請開啟票軌並整理談論案票"},{"start":5992.266,"end":6006.899,"text":"發言會現在依序進行唱票請唱票丁薛忠贊成劉許廷贊成王世堅反對王振旭反對"},{"start":6019.369,"end":6030.433,"text":"王安祥贊成王玉敏贊成王定宇反對王美惠反對王逸川反對王宏維贊成伍麗華反對"},{"start":6048.988,"end":6055.512,"text":"何新淳反對吳佩奕反對吳宗憲贊成吳秉瑞反對吳思瑤反對吳綺銘反對呂玉琳贊成"},{"start":6079.369,"end":6083.932,"text":"李坤誠反對李坤哲反對李彥秀贊成"},{"start":6092.085,"end":6098.411,"text":"李博毅反對沈博洋反對沈發慧反對林月琴反對林佩祥贊成"},{"start":6113.194,"end":6124.42,"text":"林怡瑾反對林代化反對林俊憲反對林思明贊成林倩琦贊成林淑芬反對"},{"start":6139.659,"end":6146.483,"text":"林楚英反對林德福贊成邱志偉反對邱若驊贊成邱慧露贊成邱政軍贊成"},{"start":6167.185,"end":6177.668,"text":"邱毅英反對柯智恩贊成柯建民反對洪孟凱贊成洪玉祥贊成范芸反對"},{"start":6194.798,"end":6202.261,"text":"徐巧欣贊成徐欣盈贊成徐富奎反對圖權吉贊成翁曉琳贊成"},{"start":6216.927,"end":6222.428,"text":"馬文君贊成高金樹梅贊成張宏祿反對張志倫贊成張雅琳反對張家俊贊成"},{"start":6243.258,"end":6248.703,"text":"莊瑞雄 反對許宇珍 贊成許忠信 贊成許智傑 反對郭國文 反對陳永康 贊成"},{"start":6272.004,"end":6277.447,"text":"陳秀寶反對陳亭飛反對陳俊宇反對陳冠廷反對陳素月反對"},{"start":6295.067,"end":6299.571,"text":"陳培宇 反對陳青龍 贊成陳雪生 贊成陳金輝 贊成陳瑩 反對傅坤祺 贊成"},{"start":6321.363,"end":6330.369,"text":"游浩贊成黃仁贊成黃秀芳反對黃建斌贊成黃建豪贊成黃婕反對楊耀反對"},{"start":6349.667,"end":6356.428,"text":"楊崇英贊成萬美玲贊成葉元芝贊成葛如君贊成廖仙翔贊成劉建國反對劉淑冰贊成"},{"start":6379.884,"end":6389.192,"text":"蔡其昌反對蔡奕宇反對蔡春愁贊成鄭天才贊成鄭振淺贊成魯明哲贊成"},{"start":6407.136,"end":6410.058,"text":"盧憲一贊成賴世保贊成賴會員反對賴銳龍反對謝依鳳贊成謝龍介贊成"},{"start":6434.896,"end":6442.379,"text":"鍾嘉斌反對顏寬恒贊成羅廷瑋贊成羅明才贊成羅美玲反對羅志強贊成"},{"start":6462.635,"end":6464.617,"text":"蘇巧惠反對蘇清泉贊成"},{"start":6619.374,"end":6627.719,"text":"法院會現在報告投票表決結果立法院對總統提出彈劾案投票表決結果"},{"start":6629.425,"end":6650.06,"text":"贊成彈劾案56票反對彈劾案50票無效票0票決議本院對總統提出之彈劾案未達憲法徵收條文第4條第7項鎖定全體立法委員三分之二以上人數彈劾案不通過"},{"start":6651.448,"end":6671.741,"text":"中華民國115年5月19日投開票監察員劉淑冰、蘇清泉、陳培宇包園會上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫第一批發價書採購特別預算籌編相關事項專案報告並備質詢現在休息"},{"start":17841.616,"end":17858.244,"text":"包園會現在繼續開會進行保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫第一批發架書採購特別預算案籌編相關事項專案報告並被質詢請行政院左院長報告"},{"start":17877.023,"end":17905.164,"text":"韓院長江副院長各位委員先進今日本人應邀就保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰利計劃第一批發價書採購特別預算案籌編相關事項進行專案報告並被質詢責任重大大院在今年5月8日三讀通過的軍購特別條例也經總統在5月11日及時公布事情"},{"start":17906.277,"end":17932.322,"text":"依該條例第六條規定本院應於通過後一個月內就第一批發價書預算案向大院提出專案報告並備諮詢經大院同意後 使得籌編預算第二批發價書預算案一同此次向大院報告第一批發價書包括有海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統等五案其中"},{"start":17934.239,"end":17937.581,"text":"M109A7自走炮金額806億6573萬元海馬仕多管火箭飛彈系統"},{"start":17943.86,"end":17949.263,"text":"1597億1043萬元反甲型無人機飛彈系統330億8429萬元標槍反裝甲飛彈99億2635萬元脫勢2B反裝甲飛彈116億58萬元共計2949億9098萬元而目前海馬仕多管飛彈系統"},{"start":17971.127,"end":17984.955,"text":"M109A7自走炮、標槍反裝甲飛彈、托士2B反裝甲飛彈等4項台美已完成發價書簽署5月31日海馬市多管火箭飛彈系統付款期限將至"},{"start":17985.973,"end":18012.889,"text":"而反甲型無人機飛彈系統剛於5月16日獲得美方發價訴訟案特證執行發價內容磋商與簽署作業以上僅就軍購特別條例第六條第三項所定四款相關事項提出專案報告一我國過去五年軍事採購之項目金額收益與到貨情形"},{"start":18013.849,"end":18027.099,"text":"過去五年我國與美方執行重大軍購案所籌貨武器裝備既有M1A2T戰車海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統等28案金額約為334億美元其中完成"},{"start":18032.023,"end":18040.728,"text":"交運的既有托式2B反裝甲飛彈、標槍反裝甲飛彈、方陣快炮、M1A2T戰車等6案金額約為24億元,均將納入戰備任務至於其餘的案項正執行交運中或將於後續年度緊述交運"},{"start":18054.261,"end":18062.729,"text":"第二項採購項目與前款採購之關係籌貨為建軍後如何有效提升聯合作債效能本次規劃採購海馬斯多管火箭飛彈系統標槍托式2B反裝甲飛彈等過去5年對美方軍購均有納入籌貨為因"},{"start":18080.323,"end":18091.434,"text":"因為因應中國加速提升對我國發動聯合火力打擊等作戰態勢原籌購的數量不足不足以應付作戰需求故必須徵購令"},{"start":18094.165,"end":18115.697,"text":"M109A7自動炮具備精準打擊等能力有助創造有力的戰局因此向美方籌購以下就國軍執行整體防空及飛彈防禦聯合反登陸以及聯合國土防衛三個階段的聯合作戰效能與說明在整體防空及飛彈防衛階段"},{"start":18117.588,"end":18143.095,"text":"面對寶核聯合火力打擊國軍需建構重層防禦高度感知系統整合有效攔截等特性的強大防空火網方可提高整體防空量能本次籌購海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統可對300公里內敵方各式飛彈發射載台執行深遠打擊任務壓制共軍聯合火力的打擊"},{"start":18144.568,"end":18163.457,"text":"第二,聯合反登陸階段,本次籌購海馬斯多管火箭飛彈系統及M109A7自走炮,可協同我方反艦飛彈,針對作戰區、濱海至灘岸之間敵方的重要目標,實施快速精準火力打擊。"},{"start":18164.605,"end":18187.224,"text":"第三項在聯合國土防衛階段海馬士多管火箭飛彈系統M109A7自走炮可提供作戰區精準火力支援令標槍托式2B反裝甲飛彈及反甲型無人機飛彈系統可精準打擊敵方戰車與裝甲車輛因此本次籌購的M109A7自走炮等五項"},{"start":18188.444,"end":18208.074,"text":"武器的裝備可適度提升整體聯合作戰效能但若要形成全方位防空火網就是台灣之盾或者海上之不對稱防衛能力以及強化持久削弱作戰能力等三項要素則需同步建置指管決策全域爭執"},{"start":18209.255,"end":18227.995,"text":"無人與反制系統 中程反彈道飛彈以及防衛韌性相關的各式彈藥與裝備生產線擴建軍備產能方可優化不對稱戰力 保衛國家安全第三大項 採購項目之籌貨期程預期交貨時間與全售期維持成本"},{"start":18233.308,"end":18240.436,"text":"在M109A7自走炮我們採購60門及其附屬的裝備重獲其成為115年至121年預期119年其交運全受其維持的後勤成本預估160億餘元"},{"start":18250.848,"end":18258.134,"text":"海馬士多管火箭飛彈系統82套精準火箭4320枚戰術區域飛彈420枚及附屬的裝備籌貨期程為115年至121年預期119年起交運全售期維持的後勤成本預估約409億餘元反裝甲無人機飛彈系統2032架"},{"start":18277.346,"end":18285.572,"text":"籌獲其成為115年至121年預計117年起交運全售期維持的後勤成本預估約36億餘元標槍反裝甲飛彈系統70套飛彈1050枚籌獲其成為115年至121年預期120年起交運全售期維持的後勤成本預估約3億餘元"},{"start":18302.845,"end":18307.109,"text":"托市2B反裝甲飛彈系統24套飛彈1545枚籌獲其成為115年至120年預計118年起交運全售其維持的後期成本預估約1億餘元"},{"start":18318.32,"end":18332.109,"text":"第四大項採購後國軍人員維持後勤補給資源資訊通訊系統維護之策進作為在人員維持方面新式裝備操作人力維持採取現有兵力轉換為原則未來國軍的兵力結構組成將以自願役"},{"start":18337.473,"end":18351.087,"text":"與義務役雙軌並行的戰力組成並持續依新式武器裝備獲得強化現代化實戰化的作戰訓練可立即發揮戰力確保國家安全在後勤補給資源方面"},{"start":18352.568,"end":18375.281,"text":"M109A7自走炮、海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統及反甲型無人機飛彈系統均為美方現役裝備零附件籌措、籌補取得容易可維持裝備高妥善率至於標槍與托式2B反裝甲飛彈國內已完成後勤補給能量的建制具備完整維保的能力"},{"start":18376.221,"end":18394.417,"text":"另外在資訊通訊維護方面M109A7自走炮與海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統配附國內國外跳頻無線電機以及美軍野戰炮兵戰術數據系統可執行目標交換及火力協調強化聯合作戰實效"},{"start":18396.599,"end":18407.777,"text":"至於標槍托式2B反裝甲飛彈與反甲型無人機飛彈部隊配附國造跳平無線電機可執行上下級指管命令的傳遞針對新式"},{"start":18411.18,"end":18433.626,"text":"裝備同步採購的國內國外跳屏無線電機均具備保密的模組可執行數據語言的傳輸並整合到國軍聯合作戰指揮中心以下的各級指揮所以強化作戰安全並發揮聯合戰力本次第一批發價書採購特別預算案的籌購項目均經過國防部以防衛作戰需求"},{"start":18439.758,"end":18450.349,"text":"在與美方諮商以及建立確立公售意願輸出許可產能排除與交運期程等因素後完成周詳規劃"},{"start":18452.213,"end":18470.344,"text":"國家安全應不分黨派投資國防就是投資和平期盼各位原先進迅速同意編列第一批發價書採購特別預算案以使國軍官兵擁有更完整的戰力確保國家安全守護國民生命財產感謝各位謝謝進行指教"},{"start":18474.653,"end":18483.316,"text":"好 謝謝卓院長現在進行委員質詢每位委員質詢時間不超過15分鐘輪到質詢委員如不在場 視為棄權首先請何委員心存質詢"},{"start":18504.781,"end":18506.105,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請卓院長"},{"start":18520.533,"end":18544.594,"text":"院長好請教一下卓院長今天一大早不知道你有沒有注意到一向標榜不在上班時間談政治的盧秀燕市長喊話拋出了三大建議我想中華民國台灣本來就是一個主權國獨立的一個民主國家"},{"start":18547.182,"end":18574.705,"text":"主權獨立的民主國家在我們台灣自己國人的心中也好生活中也好或者是在我們的認知中也好甚至在國際對於中華民國台灣是一個主權獨立的民主國家我想很多都給予支持而且是肯認的所以在這件事情上我就非常的覺得盧市長今天非常的"},{"start":18575.691,"end":18602.128,"text":"大動作 那我也呢 也用這個三個建議來給盧市長第一個 維持現狀是全民共識第二個 經濟優先 民生第一第三個 真心誠意愛台灣這個何欣淳給盧秀英的這三個建議卓院長不知道你覺得如何還有對於今天一早盧市長的三大建議那您有注意到嗎 那你的看法又如何"},{"start":18603.138,"end":18627.952,"text":"謝謝何委員委員提出這三點都是現在身為中華民國台灣國人心中最應該具備有的國民心裡的素質啦那我是認為在1999年民主進步黨提出台灣前途決議文之後就明白的說明了台灣是一個主權獨立的國家現在依照憲法名稱叫做中華民國所管轄的範圍都是台澎金馬以及所屬的島嶼那這個已經是1999年到現在了那身為一個"},{"start":18632.732,"end":18647.097,"text":"國內的重要的政治工作者他必須與時俱進 體察時事如果從1999年經過20幾年都完全不能體察這種現象自己本身沒有進步也不能隨著時代的演進來調整自己對這個論述的話那麼將自決於國人之外"},{"start":18650.678,"end":18677.828,"text":"是 卓院長說的是所以我們給盧秀燕的三個建議再重申一次維持現狀是一個全民共識也是最大公約數第二個 經濟優先 民生第一我想卓院長今天有召開記者會我們未來要全面性的 全靈的多元性的 全方位的照顧國人經濟優先 民生第一"},{"start":18678.468,"end":18702.756,"text":"第三個我們呼籲盧市長真心誠意愛台灣愛台灣不是用講的愛台灣是真正要用行動來做那台中市要先做好台中市要先給人家覺得安全安心台中市即使在今天剛剛我看到一個即時新聞連自己的垃圾還處理不好光是我們潭子這個垃圾場"},{"start":18705.197,"end":18731.762,"text":"床墊被拋棄的床墊聽說沒有辦法處理排成一條萬里長城所以如果真心誠意愛台灣要先好好的愛我們台中台灣這一塊土地所以卓院長謝謝你我們希望盧市長要與時俱進再一次的給盧秀燕三個建議維持現狀全民共識經濟優先民生第一真心誠意愛台灣"},{"start":18732.702,"end":18747.708,"text":"我為什麼會提到這個因為要真心誠意愛台灣又要經濟優先發展那就牽涉到這一次我們今天的專案報告我們這一次的國防特別預算那從行政院版的1.25兆被砍成現在這個版本的7800億我們被砍了4700億那我想這砍掉了是國防"},{"start":18756.292,"end":18769.965,"text":"的自主這砍掉了是斷了台灣產業甚至我們在地勞工就業的活水因為呢在我看到過去行政院提出的1.25兆的版本裡面我們現在被砍了4700億裡面包含了"},{"start":18772.287,"end":18788.084,"text":"各式無人機的採購AI決策指管模組軍備產能新產線台美的研發合作等等那這些事實上台灣有完整的產業鏈而且台灣自己的研發能力在精進當中"},{"start":18789.045,"end":18802.301,"text":"那我們也希望這個4700億如果原本可以通過的話是可以再造臺灣的產業轉型升級甚至可以創造無限的商機以及就業機會左院長對不對"},{"start":18804.614,"end":18831.065,"text":"是我原來是台中台中是我們中部的精密製造的新核心那台中又有非常好的傳統產業的產業供應鏈而且目前它又是一個產業聚落無人機聚落一個產業聚落的一個中心核心包括漢翔雷神等等而且國內的無人機卓越的這個聯盟跟無人機聯盟都相互的在運作那麼如果我們能夠"},{"start":18832.125,"end":18847.521,"text":"得到大量的充裕的這個預算的支持將在國內軍工產業當中尤其是現在全世界所需要的民主供應鏈的無人機產業發展起來的話那不僅對台中對台灣而言那是非常大的一個產業升級"},{"start":18848.362,"end":18865.052,"text":"所以應該把握這個機會 任何來自台中的委員都應該把握這個機會是 來 我就要跟卓院長分享喔我絕對支持卓院長您的說法跟看法跟未來我們行政院國家的政策跟未來的投入的預算我們一定要支持喔"},{"start":18865.532,"end":18880.226,"text":"台灣無人機的產業分工剛剛院長有提到台中是一個智慧製造的一個新核心而且是一個全世界都看見台中的智慧製造實力那我們有完整的產業鏈而且就現況而言"},{"start":18881.187,"end":18897.464,"text":"無人機的智慧製造中心跟產業鏈的分佈也非常的密集的在台中對台灣來講是機不可失飛鴻供應鏈的建立呢這個核心呢在台中對台中來講更是機不可失"},{"start":18898.064,"end":18913.549,"text":"但是呢我非常遺憾的我非常遺憾的是看到什麼這個現在的台中市市長盧秀燕在3月26號她去訪問美國的時候她突然說發現大商機所以認為要建立台中市的第10個無人機產業鏈"},{"start":18915.229,"end":18939.65,"text":"3月30號又表態說這個軍購應該達到8000億到1兆包括我們顧立雄部長還說聲感謝 謝謝支持可是到了5月13號我們看到盧市長並沒有發揮他這個國民黨號稱一解的人影響國民黨團 影響民眾黨團對於我們提出的國防特別預算裡面這樣子的一個7800億的一個版本"},{"start":18942.132,"end":18966.291,"text":"被砍了4700億的這件事情盧市長沒有說話默不作聲甚至還說了一句先等川習會那等了川習會之後到現在也沒有支持我們行政院的一個國防特別預算第一個盧市長扼殺了台中產業轉型升級的機會跟活水那來現在的主席我們"},{"start":18967.452,"end":18992.821,"text":"坐在上面的江啟臣副院長5月3號來跟他媒體說這個是什麼草野新政不足什麼過度包裹成什麼關鍵這個講這個話呢完全迴避了表態到底支不支持台灣的國防台中的產業轉型升級5月8號也完全不作聲也不表態甚至呢在我們"},{"start":18994.001,"end":19021.834,"text":"當下在表決這一個國防特別條例的一個當下在立法院的院會江啟臣也沒有出現也沒有表決沒有表態事後呢我說真的啦大家看在眼裡啦就是心虛嘛就是閃躲嘛那所以呢也是國民黨的立委江啟臣還有其他國民黨台中的立委扼殺了台中產業的轉型升級的機會跟活水"},{"start":19022.745,"end":19039.361,"text":"院長我要講這件事是因為我真的是覺得非常心痛非常遺憾所以呢既然已經被砍了但是我要為台中的產業轉型升級說話我要為台中的智慧製造新核心要找出一股新力量跟一股活水"},{"start":19039.901,"end":19057.203,"text":"所以我還是要積極的來請教卓院長那您有提出對媒體說過要提三個方案解套那一個呢再提特別條例一個追加預算一個叫做擴大年度預算規模那請教一下院長是哪一項那何時要決定"},{"start":19058.526,"end":19086.002,"text":"謝謝委員其實支持這樣的整套的1.25兆的國防特別條例跟特別預算支持只要一個信念就是心存台灣但是反對可以編出100個莫須有的理由所以我們看到這個事實是如此那至於說後續的補救方式我們跟國防部也研究過在憲法跟預算法的精神跟規範底下我們可以有再編一個特別條例跟特別預算或者"},{"start":19087.743,"end":19108.818,"text":"尋求各種形式的最佳預算或者是用到年度的公務預算但這三項都有它值得再深入考慮的部分尤其是動用到年度的公務預算因為它我們未來包括無人機的產業量非常的大自主研發的需求非常的大國際研的需求也非常的大"},{"start":19110.019,"end":19135.054,"text":"這樣大的一個計畫難免會產生排擠性的效用所以如果有各種方式能夠並合起來討論使用的話也許在我們財務的規劃上面會比較方便不過我首先還是要尊重國防部跟美方做進一步洽商未來如何補救那麼這個工作當然國防外交總統最後的決定我們會如實向總統報告這個部分再請委員多多指教好"},{"start":19136.294,"end":19153.525,"text":"院長其實我比較擔心的是什麼不管哪一項在野黨如果不支持還是一樣黨不管江副院長支不支持他沒有發揮影響力去影響嘴巴上說支持行動力不夠的話我們的不管哪一項"},{"start":19155.165,"end":19169.351,"text":"特別預算也好追加預算也好擴大年度預算規模也好只要在野黨說一聲NO還是一樣被擋下所以呢嘴巴說支持行動上沒有發揮影響力不表態閃躲"},{"start":19171.892,"end":19192.119,"text":"不支持也是一樣無奈啊所以我還是呼籲啊謝謝院長我們呢不管決定哪一項這些的方法就一定要盡快的來彌補這一次被砍掉的4700億啊這彌補的不是只有我們字面上的預算這彌補的是台灣無人機產業的"},{"start":19195.424,"end":19212.82,"text":"可能兩倍三倍甚至無數倍的一個倍數的一個發展跟商機他甚至牽涉到的是我們的研發能力產業轉型升級的能量這牽涉到我台中我的這個智慧製造傳統產業中小企業"},{"start":19214.521,"end":19234.149,"text":"能否在政府的引領之下可以跟著產業升級轉型我可以跟上在飛鴻的這個供應鏈裡面我可以開拓一個生機我可以開拓另外一個外銷的一個機會而且這個機會是無限大"},{"start":19236.854,"end":19266.083,"text":"跟委員報告我說補救的不是數字預算本身而是有四項第一個就是我們國防的需求國防自主產業的需求第二個是我們對於民主供應鏈被需求的這樣一個未來的產量第三個是國際間的合作跟信賴第四個是我們有機會發展我們本土的軍工自主產業的發展這是一個天宰難逢的機會不僅是台中從中部地區然後其他各縣市包括新北都有我們的相關的產業都必須要串聯起來"},{"start":19267.542,"end":19290.518,"text":"所以我要跟院長拜託也要跟院長請求這個台中產業轉型我剛剛一直在講的我們要升級那雙軸心的一個佈局行政院確實有提出一個無人載具的產業發展的一個計畫但我就是要告訴院長我剛剛講了好多次台中就是無人機的智慧製造中心"},{"start":19292.15,"end":19310.776,"text":"所有的無人機現況 改天我帶左院長再來台中看一次中部叫做智慧製造 南部叫做研發驗證所以中部以現階段來看 台中有非常完整的無人機載具"},{"start":19312.637,"end":19325.222,"text":"林組建、智慧製造等等台中本身就是一個新核心就是一個智慧製造的一個中心這個我想經濟部龔明星、龔部長應該知道吧市長"},{"start":19326.294,"end":19355.495,"text":"我們進一步有這個無人機的發展統籌期計畫在推動但是還是蠻可惜的因為我去拜訪中部的這些無人機廠商的時候事實上他們很期待國防部他們的試商跟他們的驗證因為通過國防部的驗證跟試商他們的能力會提升起來砍入國際的供應鏈 飛鴻供應鏈事實上是幫助非常大的是非常重要的對 但是因為這個預算沒有了以後大概國防部也不會再試商或選商了"},{"start":19355.834,"end":19361.175,"text":"那這個機會就沒有了 實際上是非常非常可惜我們希望將來還是看用什麼樣的方法把它補回來"},{"start":19362.63,"end":19389.478,"text":"對所以院長剛剛廣布長的就是我在台中無人機的產業的業者裡面看到跟聽到的心聲他們真的覺得非常的遺憾而且覺得非常的惶惶不安因為這一次砍掉了4700億我再強調一次他不是一個數字而已他牽涉到的是一個研發一個轉型甚至未來在國防部政府的"},{"start":19389.938,"end":19411.352,"text":"一個引領之下他可以能夠擴展商機甚至呢驗證規格銜接國際的一個最重要的一個機會點對不對部長這個要讓院長知道所以我說台中本身現在就是一個無人機的智慧製造中心我們欠缺的是什麼政府的大力支持"},{"start":19411.832,"end":19421.982,"text":"所以呢政府我相信卓院長告訴我在既有的產業優勢基礎上新思維再加碼大投資壯大台中的產業院長支持嗎"},{"start":19437.889,"end":19462.16,"text":"好,謝謝何委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請賴氏保委員質詢謝謝主席、江副院長以及卓院長以及各位先進,有請卓院長好,請卓院長備詢這個旁邊的部長如果有需要可以隨時上來"},{"start":19470.581,"end":19495.775,"text":"院長辛苦了因為我看川普他離開大陸後他就打電話給日本的高市早苗首相打電話給韓國的李在民就跟他講一些事情等於川習會之後他跟他說什麼就沒有給大家台灣了"},{"start":19496.636,"end":19523.004,"text":"然後呢 他說軍售 台灣的軍售要跟治理台灣的人講話治理台灣的耐心德啊施圖文啦 前AIT的處長啦AIT的處長 他說川普可能不記得台灣總統的名字啦這很浪費勒"},{"start":19523.803,"end":19532.967,"text":"我們外交做到這樣,服到這樣,市開這麼多,結果美國總統就不知道,你說我們的總統有什麼心得呢?你要拿來講一下,聽他講的話,出個氣,為什麼我們的總統在這裡也這麼大聲都不知道?"},{"start":19543.083,"end":19545.585,"text":"不會啦美國重要的國家領導的各個主管幹部不會不知道台灣目前的政治現狀"},{"start":19563.916,"end":19591.345,"text":"台南那個地方,這個東西是很漏氣了很漏氣,你...政治上的一種表達而已這是一種藝術的表達我跟你講,你要跟總統建議啦外交系統、國安系統要換人啦竟然我們的總統名字,他都不知道是他跳槓,跳槓不講的或者他怕,是你老公,特別不敢講你們要去注意我們看今天的題目"},{"start":19593.254,"end":19616.641,"text":"第一批的軍購 今天你來講話了第二批的軍購 140億美金因為傳習會在他們叫洗船會 因為地主是北京嘛 中國大陸所以洗船會會完了 下一次在9月24號要傳習會在美國"},{"start":19622.529,"end":19639.457,"text":"當然有人講說習近平替川普做啦啦隊去買點東西啊買點農產品啊對他股票有幫助所以川普非常看重這一次924所以很多的外交觀察家"},{"start":19641.124,"end":19658.051,"text":"你看紐約時報就說了川普拋一個籌碼因為川普說台灣的軍售這個籌碼這麼好用我們賴總統公告立馬公告我們是棋手不是棋子我們就是棋子"},{"start":19661.485,"end":19678.386,"text":"我們就是棋子很簡單所以紐約時報說我們第二批的花架書可能在九月底以後他不會不給啦九月底以後才給來你聽我講完還好老實講你要感謝我們救人"},{"start":19679.758,"end":19703.723,"text":"我們這個就給他通過了780億最少第一批第二批的花價書全部cover了不給在美國如果今天只過3千8百億的話那很清楚看得到啊他說會怪我們你看台灣自己都不重視了所以他就不批現在我們給他這樣錢第二批的軍購144億美金我們變成是4千8百億"},{"start":19707.133,"end":19724.311,"text":"在哪裡在哪裡所以這東西你剛才有回答那個委員你未來這4700億你是用特別預算追加預算還是零度預算這三項都是我們可以選擇的項目我告訴你不要特別預算"},{"start":19726.479,"end":19752.352,"text":"不要特別預算 特別預算已經審查過了你再過來有預算我媽都問題預算不能給你這樣子做說我媽這塊這樣結果你媽砍掉 我重新補回來 沒有這回事你可以追加預算你可以年度預算 錢我都替你找好了4700億除以8年 一年大概600億今年的增加稅 增加最少5000億最少5000億"},{"start":19756.311,"end":19780.507,"text":"你第一年可以馬上編明年度1200億後年度1200億然後你特別條例如果你一定要特別條例我絕對反對如果是一個全新的特別條例委員會支持嗎什麼東西全新的特別條例跟特別預算全新除非你做一個東西叫做"},{"start":19781.346,"end":19807.843,"text":"那給經濟部了,不是給國防部了叫無人機產業發展條例,這個可以考慮無人機產業發展的特別條例發展特別條例,舉債啊你發展條例你錢有啊不是沒有錢,我跟你講今天的很多媒體在講我們的經濟成長率8%多少%多少%股市一直創新高,精湛啊"},{"start":19808.581,"end":19821.685,"text":"但是你不要忘了平均薪資四萬八七成的人所以我們要支撐這個經濟的成長除了國防之外我們更多經濟的建設台灣高高低低是一個荷蘭病 經濟荷蘭病剛才的經濟部長講的話我實在很失望"},{"start":19826.147,"end":19846.684,"text":"這個無人機的產業就在你的手上,你怎麼推給國防部呢?謝委員答應說要我們編的無人機產業發展的計算增加,感謝我看了,我在立法院這麼久,我看了立日的補償,大家都在增他的預算只有國民心說,好利用,好利用怎麼會有這樣的補償呢?奇怪咧"},{"start":19848.806,"end":19873.561,"text":"對不對這個你要搶過來你要搶過來台中的無人機發展產業的話就要在經濟部裡面來編嘛你怎麼在國安部編呢委員因為我們國安部作為最大的這個需求來我為什麼這樣講來來來我為什麼這樣講來你看喔我們三黨有道理嘛左院長上一任的總統是誰"},{"start":19877.385,"end":19905.167,"text":"他編的承載預算編出來是八千八百億我們立法院審查過以後 八千四百億我們砍了四百億為什麼你這裡一丁澳造一毛錢都不能刪我告訴你絕對可以刪 你的國防無人機烏克蘭這個最強的無人機烏克蘭自製攔截型無人機一百一千塊到兩千塊美金"},{"start":19906.579,"end":19929.457,"text":"三萬多塊就有了 台幣三萬多塊現在最少是不可能啦 又是戰爭的實際經驗結果我們那個 你可以看 我們最少十萬 最多一千萬我們無論是這樣編的啦所以你說恢弘供應鏈啦 結果我們現在國防的那個標案都是給什麼"},{"start":19931.243,"end":19955.399,"text":"給綠油油供應這個委員你這樣講必須要公開的表示,絕對沒有這個事情我是找很多歷史啊委員能夠提出實證來,不然這個指責非常嚴重你有任何的實證請你提出來這個無人機產業跟什麼綠油油這個絕對不相干無人機的產業聯盟總共有兩條就是這家今天早上媒體要問我說那一家公司後來倒了"},{"start":19955.999,"end":19972.207,"text":"後來就去做這個原來在做什麼的後來就是做這個去歐聯機產業怎麼沒有我就可以給你我知道給你我跟你講我們歐聯機卓越海外商機的大聯盟有260家的廠商在裡面你把這260家都把它歸為一統嗎"},{"start":19975.08,"end":19989.711,"text":"我不是 我說你今天講說這260家都是你口中所謂的都是綠油油嗎?這樣會不會太偏頗了?我沒有說全部喔我沒有說全部 我說你要圖利很多喔很多喔不是沒有全部 是沒有所謂綠油油"},{"start":19993.775,"end":20014.533,"text":"這樣的指控是很嚴厲的啦因為大家要注意看,大家搶這個審理都是要先政治表忠才有辦法接到審理你們現在為了讓他招標封閉沒有這樣的來來來,你們要修改工程會要修改工程會修改政府採購法把三家招標的拿掉了"},{"start":20015.174,"end":20024.428,"text":"一家都可以顧部長顧大部長都說過誰要能加貨管他什麼過去什麼經驗都可以如果支持的都需要表忠那不支持的要向誰表忠"},{"start":20025.643,"end":20045.138,"text":"我總是要向你報仇這就是他的疑問啦好來我們來看齁這個我再強調一遍我再強調一遍郭部長在過去國防委員會的巡達就有講過他只要能交貨賣了什麼炸彈的話根本過去都沒有這個經驗他只要能夠交貨我管他的背景是什麼"},{"start":20046.379,"end":20073.653,"text":"這個不能這樣講委員我想每一個的標案的性質跟內容都不同不能這樣講因為每一個標案的投票廠商的資格都要依照政府採購法來律定一定要有工作履歷有標案的經驗結果你們要修法把這個拿掉很悲哀啊這個是圖利難道不是圖利最少想要做壞事啊這個來我們來看來教育院我今天沒有時間跟你講這麼多了這個下一次我來幾位再來"},{"start":20079.555,"end":20108.26,"text":"這裡面我們看到賴清德總統在禮拜天前天下午的時候對這年輕人就是民進黨創黨40週年青年座談的太悲慘他台獨啊就是兩個一個那是什麼中華民國與中華人民共和國RHC跟PRC互不隸屬叫台獨"},{"start":20110.202,"end":20133.209,"text":"那就是中華民國心中就是台獨,是不是院長?那個不太可以行為,這跟你們沒關係在中國北京的眼中,如何定義台獨委員跟我一樣清楚他們只有九二共識九二共識你可以抗議中華,那來你講故事給你聽九二共識是那時候1992年的時候"},{"start":20136.013,"end":20162.52,"text":"是連戰胡錦濤、小布希大家的consensus共識說兩岸堅持一個中國一個中國的definition就是一定後來老公我們後悔但是不管怎麼樣在這裡現在習近平改成說九二共識是一國兩制那是太尷尬了沒有 他說九二共識是台灣方案你搞錯了 台灣方案就是一個中國我們不同意"},{"start":20163.584,"end":20191.289,"text":"我們不同意為什麼要堅持嗎?也沒有人同意為什麼要堅持發言我們不同意美國也不同意不要忘了來不要忘了我看一下兩張當時候郭婉容你知道ADB吧亞洲開發銀行知道沒有我們是創始會員股我們是創始會員股我們加入名稱就是ROCRepublic China"},{"start":20192.93,"end":20214.758,"text":"郭婉容去北 去大陸參加的時候 運兩枚手環的衣服抗議當中 但是她還是參加了參加比這個名稱重要我們的總部長她出門以前我就提醒她 她這次做得還不錯她說什麼 原政抗議因為被篡改為台北卡馬車"},{"start":20217.759,"end":20244.729,"text":"ATP的參加模式都這樣子你為什麼不能夠美國跟中國大陸鬥得這麼兇都可以坐下來談台灣跟大陸為什麼不能談呢你看九二共識我不同意你可以九二共識擺一個抗議當中就可以談啦很簡單的邏輯美國跟中國可以坐下來談因為美國不會想併吞中國中國不會想併吞美國但是中國是想併吞台灣這個前提不拿掉你又何談"},{"start":20245.589,"end":20272.45,"text":"我們不要給他病吞所以就underprotect所以前提這個前提一直設在這裡我們沒有辦法跟他談不要給他病吞只要雙方能夠健康有序平等尊嚴的交流我們都願意是一中各表他把它改了是他的事我不同意我可以想一個像亞裔模式underprotect抗疫當中民主隨便他搞我們就隨便去等到來一天中國台北變成世界的通用那你後悔都來不及"},{"start":20272.99,"end":20287.78,"text":"我們就堅持堅持1992年對 我們就堅持我們就堅持中華民國台灣是一個主權獨立的國家這樣有錯嗎?中華民國台灣是一個主權獨立的國家現在中華民國是主權獨立國家中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬有錯嗎?有錯 是他自權互不隸屬主權互自權互不隸屬主權互相包容我們的憲法就這樣"},{"start":20302.93,"end":20308.541,"text":"是誰屬於誰他是屬於我們的那你明天去北京我看看"},{"start":20310.626,"end":20336.842,"text":"那你明確去北京我看看那你去修憲 請你去修憲 對不對我們的憲法定很清楚 中華民國包括台灣地區政修條文包括自由地區就是台灣地區與大陸地區 定得這麼清楚是 除非那時候他不承認我們 我也不承認他他不承認我們 我們不屬於他也不行嗎他不承認我們 我們不承認他那他不屬於我們 我們不屬於他也不行"},{"start":20337.202,"end":20358.518,"text":"自權 自權 我講那是自權所以你要加兩個字 自權互不隸屬 這個就對了自權之外還有什麼 主權 主權互相包容主權我們是跟他一樣的嗎 不一樣啊跟他一樣 他包我 我包他 為什麼不對呢中華民國跟中華民國絕對不同 不然你寫中華人民共和國行政院地址絕對記不到這裡來啦"},{"start":20359.639,"end":20373.047,"text":"那就是我跟你講,所以你們講的就是中華民國就是台獨嘛不是,中華民國是一個主權獨立的國家你想講台獨啊那你說中華民國如果是台獨,那委員會是主權獨立"},{"start":20391.592,"end":20396.136,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長下一位請邱惠如委員 質詢好 有請卓院長"},{"start":20419.21,"end":20445.972,"text":"是 那部長如果覺得有需要再請自行上台 謝謝是 院長好 我今天想跟你交流就是我們的軍購呢是為了拼國防呢還是為了拼外交所謂拼外交就是把軍購預算當公關費再花不過我當然希望不是這樣不是這樣你心裡知道不是這樣"},{"start":20446.653,"end":20469.25,"text":"我希望 我是說我希望 要補一下就是要有15分鐘的時間可以讓你澄清那院長我想跟你請教就是去年11月3號國防部在國防外交委員會曾經提出一個專案報告那在這個專案報告當中我們得知有三個類型的武器在交貨騎乘上出現延宕的情況"},{"start":20470.331,"end":20480.016,"text":"的問題那這三個武器分別是AGM-154C飛彈F-16V戰機還有MK-48重型魚類那這三個品項加起來的金額高達3886億金額非常的巨大"},{"start":20491.222,"end":20518.509,"text":"那根據我們跟對方簽的合約交貨期程應該是在今年但是卻出現延宕那延宕針對魚雷還有飛彈這兩個品項延宕的時間是二到三年那F16延宕的時程目前何時交貨沒有時間表那我這邊就想請教卓院長就是說因為我們購買這些品項其實就是為了提升我們軍事武器的性能"},{"start":20519.549,"end":20540.986,"text":"但是因為這些武器的交貨期程延大有二到三年的空窗期那我們在自我防衛上會不會也出現空窗期會不會影響到我們整體的建軍整備計畫院長在過去五年我們對美採購的這多項的武器裝備當中目前還在"},{"start":20542.452,"end":20561.885,"text":"還沒有交貨的部分正在執行交運當中也將於後續的時間內陸續的交運那麼已經有當中其他的幾項有的是按時有的甚至已經完成了這些我都理解但是這三個品項它其實就是延宕二到三延宕有各他不同的因素"},{"start":20562.545,"end":20586.446,"text":"我有看到專案報告當中當然有做一些分析那像F16V這個就是交貨完全沒有時間表那完全沒有時間表我舉一個例子如果今天2027年中共要攻打台灣但是這些武器卻2028、2029年才到貨那戰爭都打完了請問這些武器到貨還有什麼意義呢那我想"},{"start":20587.286,"end":20604.818,"text":"F16V這個部分請部長來說明目前已經有比較明確的一個試程的進度是我們現在預計就是九月會有第一架的飛機飛船那現在應該也有五十幾架的這個飛機站在這個生產線因為我們透過跟美方"},{"start":20604.898,"end":20623.326,"text":"所以明確的時程我了解可不可以回答問題快很準因為我有六個問題因為不夠快的話可能會浪費時間讓我簡單的問打仗不是打混摸魚打仗是要打起12萬分的精神來加以應對"},{"start":20624.286,"end":20653.333,"text":"那遲到的武器會不會讓我們漏氣我擔心的是這個問題那當然對於延遲交貨的這些武器國防部我有注意到你們有具體的一些因應作為具體的因應作為就是說台美雙方透過會議嚴加控管那還有就是針對一些武器它實際製造的時程我們來調整我們的付款時間不會說你錢交了武器沒有到位其實這樣對我們的權益就受到損害"},{"start":20653.653,"end":20674.27,"text":"還沒有付款是那對我有了解那當然接著呢美國他們這邊也知道我們心急所以他們就要組成專案小組加以推動這些國防部呢有做這些努力那只是我們不知道努力只是流於口號還是有具體的後續因為我們擔心的就是啊然後就沒有然後了"},{"start":20675.422,"end":20695.344,"text":"部長我想F16我剛剛已經說明了我們現在要求增加這個產線所以已經有五十幾架在線組裝當中那麼第一架的飛行測試已經開始那我想如果能夠順利完成的話我們預期在今年的九月可以飛返那今年的年底以前我們會儘速能夠有"},{"start":20697.42,"end":20725.672,"text":"這個政策的價值能夠非常...院長我希望你們今天所做的回答都是說到做到我們台灣民眾黨就是一個說到做到的政黨那相信這個精神你們要學習要模仿要複製貼上我們都予以非常的樂觀表示那我在這邊請問一下這些具體的因應作為還有這些美國專案小組的積極推動這樣的一個積極作為會不會落實在未來第一批軍購案的品項因為我們真的很害怕"},{"start":20726.132,"end":20748.23,"text":"武器交貨時程延宕的事情又再重蹈覆轍這樣子跟委員報告我想我們對於這個美方就這個現在涉及到的這個軍購的案項我們都跟美方有一個長期規劃美方也給我們一個保證信函內容說明了這個相關的交易期程雙方也會互相成立專案辦公室"},{"start":20748.79,"end":20766.221,"text":"謝謝李姐那我想這個禮拜呢最沸沸揚揚的新聞呢就川習會那川普也接受福斯電台的訪問那我想他講了幾個名言那我在這邊我想大家非常耳熟能詳但因為太關鍵還是需要再說一下第一個就是說對台軍售是美中談判一個最好的籌碼"},{"start":20767.082,"end":20785.012,"text":"再來就是他希望台海維持現狀不要台獨然後兩岸需要兩方需要冷靜那關於軍售案他考慮中也許批准也許不批准那我想這個話說起來說出來當然就引起我們台灣社會的嘩然那索性我們這些"},{"start":20785.792,"end":20803.072,"text":"美國眾議院跨黨派的議員非常力挺台灣就是敦促川普一定要落實軍購案的承諾那我想他們的動心起念就覺得說支持我們台灣提升自我防衛的能力才能夠維持台海的和平跟穩定那現在重點來了就是這個"},{"start":20805.495,"end":20819.109,"text":"到底會不會出現變數因為川普在對岸有這樣的談話軍購會不會出現變數到底美國會賣給我們還是不會請問我們政府這邊有掌握嗎因為他說他還在思考中"},{"start":20819.75,"end":20847.466,"text":"我也很感謝委員有注意到美國包括他的卡納議員以及夏亨等十位議員都認為要趕快批准對台灣的各項的軍售也要堅守1982年的六項保證委員有注意到了美方事實上很多的論述是在維持現在的現狀不容許武力或強迫性的改變但是委員又怕說會不會川習會之後會有什麼變化那這個問題幫助委員你投下反對票的那個時候你應該自己問自己才對"},{"start":20848.166,"end":20858.638,"text":"什麼反對票你反對我們的軍購特別預算的時候我們通過啦我們七千八百億不是舉身走著戰成嗎如果全數通過今天就沒有反悔的問題了如果全數通過今天我們沒有這樣的問題了那剛剛院長你剛剛有提到說對台六項保證那我現在想請問"},{"start":20867.447,"end":20887.89,"text":"對台六項保證你也提到它的背景是起源於1982年那有台美關係把台灣關係法那其實當時的817公報其實就是減少對台灣的軍售那這個對台六項的保證就因應而生那這個保證也在2016年他以這個共同決議的方式獲得這個"},{"start":20890.332,"end":20906.102,"text":"參眾兩院的支持那現在對台六項保證會不會已經煙消雲散了因為其中有一個就提到說對台軍售美國不能去不需要去諮詢那個中國的意見可是最近我們就看到川普已經把"},{"start":20907.324,"end":20923.103,"text":"談那個浮上水面了在跟川喜會見面的時候那不知道這個對台六項保證還在嗎那您的看法是如何那這是外交重大的一個事項有沒有需要責成外交部長去問AIT請他給個說法"},{"start":20924.707,"end":20946.79,"text":"外交部以及國安單位在過去這段時間是密切在關注各項國際發展尤其是川普總統跟習近平主席互相之間的互動所以我們是有把握到各種他們互動之間對於台灣各種的發展但是他就跑到中國去談對台軍售那這個要怎麼處理除了關注之外我們政府的態度是如何"},{"start":20947.31,"end":20970.303,"text":"包括美國國務卿盧比奧盧比奧也說雙方對台的保證政策不會改變也不希望用武力或強迫的方式來改變台海的現狀我知道啦 就是口頭說不會改變但是事實上這個法院已經在對岸煙消雲散了因為其實他就是去喊對台軍售習近平企圖以武力來改變現狀被世界施展災難其實我想對台這個保證"},{"start":20974.725,"end":20988.015,"text":"跟台灣關係法我覺得院長也都非常的看重那現在重點就是說他是台海兩岸其實的互動的一個指引那我們台灣民眾黨因為剛剛院長好像對我們台灣民眾黨有所誤會7800億我們是投下贊成的"},{"start":20992.939,"end":21011.396,"text":"我們希望的是1.25兆1.25兆是一百億也沒有說絕對的反對到底但是我們是希望以公務預算的方式來呈現加強監督的力道好那沒關係我們台灣民眾黨對於軍購案我們大力贊成那其實我們多次對外的呼籲說美國對於第二批發價"},{"start":21012.737,"end":21035.635,"text":"第二批軍購案其實要趕快送國會然後審查過後趕快公佈那美國也表示說第二批的軍購案應該也能夠如期進行而且他還希望我們把第二批軍購案的預算放到特別條例當中我們也放了然後三讀也通過了所以我們做到了反觀川普去講一些其實有一點傷害我們台灣人民感情的話例如說"},{"start":21037.377,"end":21065.615,"text":"對台軍售是最大的籌碼我相信聽在院長耳裡應該也是心裡有無限的遺憾然後又說不會跑到萬里之外的台灣來協助我們打仗那我現在就是想問院長你覺得這個軍購的合約到底履行不履行的下去能不能如實履行如果如實履行之後能不能如期交貨因為我剛提到那三個重要的武器不就是延宕延宕再延宕那我擔心的是這個"},{"start":21066.215,"end":21083.434,"text":"我擔心的是這個 那想請教院長台灣作為一個可靠的合作夥伴我們對國際的合作我們都抱持會誠心來履約的這個態度跟精神當然我們也相信我們的對手方也會跟我們同樣來履行這樣的合約所以這個過程"},{"start":21084.702,"end":21111.354,"text":"過去幾年因為種種的國際因素包括疫後 包括惡霧戰爭等等交貨時間或許 容許我當然相信我當然覺得你是在信心很高那現在院長有這麼強的信心我覺得很好因為川普他在對岸講的是一個背道而馳的一個結果嘛說他在考慮有可能批准有可能不是但院長有這樣的信心我覺得很好好 那我接著呢再來跟院長來請教就是說"},{"start":21113.335,"end":21126.982,"text":"關於這個軍購品項的金額第一批發價書上面的那些品項金額好像浮動來浮動去高高低低起起浮浮那這個我們講一下就是關於這個第一批發價書裡頭的那些品項"},{"start":21128.863,"end":21155.174,"text":"去年美國的國防部12月17號他有公佈品項然後相對應的金額那這個金額呢其實美國公佈的是1267那3月我們國防部提出來的金額是1375又過了一個月來到8111那這個數字為什麼會這樣高低起伏那我就想說這個金額變低了是不是國防部有很強的溢價能力去幫我們爭取到這些經濟實惠用更便宜的價錢買到"},{"start":21156.514,"end":21184.614,"text":"結果再往下看數字不對啊有些數字美國國防部報的比較低我們有提升個幾十億幾百億這樣的一個情形那就讓我覺得說不是溢價能力變好是這個數字報來報去高高低低那我覺得這中間有貓膩嗎那以發價書為準確認金額請問有那麼困難嗎高高低低是想要規避監督責任還是便宜刑事金額流用我想委員是可能不太了解經過的整個程序"},{"start":21185.674,"end":21206.362,"text":"因為當時民眾黨提出的那個金額你們是去抄那個當時智慧國會的那個金額我們也一再廣布一再一再的說明智慧國會是一個金額發價數過來是一個金額最後預約的時候就是美方跟他們的這個合約商在去簽約的時候會正式過來會再有一個金額所以每一個金額的互動"},{"start":21210.663,"end":21234.882,"text":"因為軍售是美國對台灣的一個承諾他還要去跟合約商簽約那如果有智慧國會就是公開的沒智慧國會就是秘密這個流程真的非常的熟悉我瞭解那我們真的對這個金額的高低起伏難免會覺得說是不是想要迴避監督還是說想要乾坤大挪移來做金額的流用所以我們當時才說你們不能夠把金額寫在條例上面我們一講再講"},{"start":21236.383,"end":21244.074,"text":"我們你當然一講再講啦但是是非對錯我們心中當然有一把尺我們有我們的認定沒有關係我們就是直播給2300萬人民來做一個評斷那我最後想做一個結語就是說"},{"start":21252.846,"end":21268.4,"text":"這次我跟著韓院長到英國跟法國去國會外交那其實有拜訪英國跟法國的智庫那他們其實非常關心兩岸的和平還有區域的穩定以及軍購案他們都非常的關切我在國外"},{"start":21269.181,"end":21283.58,"text":"不斷的回覆就是針對這些軍購軍購案還有人員政策在跟他們做一些意見的交換那我在想後職國防實力這個是一定需要的但是監督是民主的核心那所以錢一定要花在刀口上"},{"start":21284.321,"end":21306.297,"text":"每一分錢應該花在提升自我防衛的戰力上而不應該是撫編亂編那我們在這邊也期待行政院或者是責成國防部好好的來完善我們的建軍計畫完善我們的採購內容完善我們的交貨期程"},{"start":21310.16,"end":21327.907,"text":"因為這是政府責無旁貸的責任因為只有提升自我防衛的能力才能夠維持兩岸的和平連歐洲的國家都這麼關注台灣的安全跟國防我們怎麼可以自己放棄呢我們沒有放棄我們就是積極的在支持國防控制國家的勢力是民眾黨的立場好 謝謝邱委員"},{"start":21339.069,"end":21358.255,"text":"謝謝卓院長下一位我們請羅美梨委員質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21368.795,"end":21392.72,"text":"羅委員好院長好本席再次強調5月8號我們所通過的國防特別條例它就是條例其實我們後面還有預算要送進來我想請教院長我們的國防特別預算什麼時候會送到立法院"},{"start":21394.383,"end":21419.088,"text":"根據特別條例當中的規定是希望我們在第一批發價書要先做一個專案的報告也就是現在我們在進行的應聚那麼這個專案報告我們來這裡跟委員做清楚的答覆之後那我們就可以進行後續的預算的編列那其實後續預算編列我們事先都已經在國防部縝密的規劃當中那時間上的安排我們會在明天就召開臨時的行政院院會"},{"start":21420.049,"end":21438.789,"text":"來通過特別軍購的特別預算期待能夠儘速送到大院來進行檢查等到把這個國防特別預算送到立法院之後我們才會審這個預算審這個項目所以其實在國防特別條例"},{"start":21439.77,"end":21455.287,"text":"我們是定定的是一個大原則所以看起來呢在野黨像民眾黨剛剛徐惠如委員有特別提到他真的是把國防特別條例跟國防的特別預算呢搞混了"},{"start":21456.148,"end":21474.259,"text":"这是两个不一样它是有前后的这个顺序所以我们其实后续呢我们还要省国防特别预算那国防特别条例呢虽然在5月8号通过了可是由原来的1.25兆然后呢被在野党限缩到只有7800亿"},{"start":21476.48,"end":21497.227,"text":"那他完全是全面排除了这个商购伪制跟台美技术合作的这个项目严重破坏了我国整体建军规划跟防卫任性的这个布局其实刚刚一开始我们何新存委员就有提到了这4700亿删掉的是什么删掉的是整个作战系统"},{"start":21497.907,"end":21507.907,"text":"大腦的這個AI指管的這個系統那再來呢還有我們的這個無人載具呢也被在野黨給刪除了那甚至呢還有我們的國防自治組"},{"start":21508.976,"end":21530.164,"text":"这个非红产业链然后请任性等等这全部都被删除了所以刚刚我们有提到就是说这4700亿我在想不会因为在野党的这个阻挠我们就放弃了吗不可能吗所以我在刚刚一直在提到就是说到底往后我们要如何"},{"start":21531.62,"end":21544.718,"text":"補救這個部分是如何來做這個補救剛剛我也聽了這個呃賴世保委員提到剛才是說不能殺有特別條例可是他又提到說又要弄一個無人機的產業的這個條例弄聽的我"},{"start":21546.4,"end":21573.583,"text":"再提他听了就是非常的混乱我想在场的各位官员也是非常的这个混乱那如果是按照赖世宝委员所提到的以后我们就是要有特别每一样都要有特别条例比如说有无人艇的特别条例无人载机的特别条例AI的这个辅助系统的特别条例每一次都要有特别条例有可能是这个样子吗以后这个4700亿到底是要如何去来做补助请问院长好我们说过"},{"start":21574.577,"end":21590.857,"text":"關於台灣之盾以及引進AI的科技的擊殺鏈還有形成自主的工業產業這三塊拼圖缺一不可但我們跟國際的合作也不可推遲另外就是我們國防自主的發展"},{"start":21591.838,"end":21606.897,"text":"軍工國防制度的發展也不可放棄所以我們對最後的4700億這個部分除了委辦商購之外台美的合作還有軍工制度產業的發展我們會持續的依照預算來做各種的補救"},{"start":21608.659,"end":21625.271,"text":"國防部已經在仔細的作業當中期待今天我們所在這裡的狀況報告以及明天的特別預算我們能夠送出來那之後我們會尋求憲法跟預算法的規定來補救這4700億總之是要完成剛剛說的三塊拼圖缺一不可"},{"start":21625.868,"end":21654.153,"text":"对我们在审查这个国防特别条例的时候在野党就在说好那4700亿的这个部分呢删除了可是呢可以把它纳入到这个这一般的这个公务预算里面之前呢我有听到这个黄文起司长就有提到了一百一百一十五年度的这个国防公务预算为例他说军事投资预算的是1616亿那其中也签约持续案已经高达1532亿那真正可以兴建"},{"start":21655.114,"end":21669.489,"text":"這個新增建軍的部分空間只有84億如果按照這樣子的話4700億如果以8年來分攤的話表示說一年你可能要增加的部分是580幾億"},{"start":21671.391,"end":21691.01,"text":"也就是說軍事投資的部分你一年你就要增加500億有可能嗎?我們有這個空間嗎?我想最主要是公寓預算我們今年算是今年的預算已經提高了相當高的1%大概應該是7-8%那能夠容納的新政案像在軍事投資部分大概只有84億多"},{"start":21692.251,"end":21715.153,"text":"我們後續的年度預算我們新增的案項還有大概將近700億的案項可能是需要擺進來的那我們也是分年在做規劃所以新增的案項在軍事投資除了持續案之外新增案項納進來本身運用這個年度的預算本身就很吃緊所以我們才會提出這個特別預算那這個特別預算"},{"start":21716.569,"end":21732.405,"text":"能夠兼顧跟我們的年度預算一起做的話呢再不排擠這個政府其他重要的私人前提下就能夠達到我們的這個符合作戰需求的一個目標這是我們想望的所以才會提出這樣的一個特別條例出來"},{"start":21733.393,"end":21761.685,"text":"OK 部長你剛有提到就是說如果是沒有這個特別預算的話把這些這些都納入到一般的公務預算一定會排擠到其他的項目嘛就是說你國防預算在總預算之下你不可能一直在年度預算裡面一直去就在年度預算裡面去增加嘛那我們本身持續案之外還有還有其他的新增案我們並不是把它全部擺到特別預算裡面去嘛還有其他的新增案是 當然"},{"start":21762.845,"end":21778.091,"text":"我們還有其他本來就是延續當中的軍事投資所以你基本上來講的話你是沒有這麼大的空間你說要把它全部納入到我們的一般公共預算這是不可能的事情所以剛剛院長提到就是說可能我們會尋求不同的途徑"},{"start":21779.492,"end":21804.34,"text":"不同的途徑很可能是追加預算有些可能納入一般的公務預算很可能還會有特別條例我們來把這個4700億的這個項目我們來做處理是這樣子的方式嗎至於要新編一個特別條例特別預算或是用追加的方式或是部分在公務預算當中我們請國防部在研立一個內容跟程序以及時效上最能夠幫助整個國防"},{"start":21805.4,"end":21825.44,"text":"國內的軍工產業以及國防整體需求發展的這個目的來做一個整密的規範那未來我們一定會儘快的一朝十四來提出這樣的方式特別預算它是為了某一個特別的正式目的長年度的穩定的也排除了一些預算上面的一個限制它一定有它的必要性"},{"start":21826.401,"end":21846.597,"text":"跟他的實際效果放到公共預算當中我們還有很多的社會福利基礎建設 科技發展 經濟發展那難免發生排擠現在經濟發展這麼好政府應該用更多的力量要來協助這些產業那我們同時如果用特別預算來支援國防的話那這個平衡點就會比較容易給我們掌握到"},{"start":21847.097,"end":21861.836,"text":"是因为国防特别条例在过去在城市委员会其实被打了将近十次我们本席比较担心的是每一次提出一个特别条例的话在野党故意就不让你出这个城市委员会其实这对整个军备的"},{"start":21862.336,"end":21889.6,"text":"这个准备来讲其实是一个延宕故意延迟故意延宕这是本期所担心的那当然部长刚有院长刚有提到就是说我们编列这个特别预算最主要是避免一些排挤的效应比如说我们要保障教育社福还有支出这些不被呢被排挤掉嘛所以我们才会有这个特别条例当然在这当中呢赵野党在审核这个1.25招军事特别条例的时候就批说这1.25招是穷兵毒武"},{"start":21889.94,"end":21912.172,"text":"好像在野黨就是說你這樣子會排擠到醫護軍人加薪、社福長照、健保跟年薪這是非常矛盾的說法你當初在我們在審這個特別預算的特別條例的時候你就說你會排擠到這些可是現在倒過來又在說我們這些被刪除的這個項目可以列入公務預算那不是自打嘴巴嗎"},{"start":21913.433,"end":21929.157,"text":"我們在財務的規劃上面我們是非常小心謹慎的一方面要堅守財政的紀律一方面要考慮到各部會的均衡發展以及其他各個項目的一個規劃所以儲蓄總署在對各個部會送來的預算當中他都會做很嚴格的審查"},{"start":21931.198,"end":21958.203,"text":"那不容易說讓一個國防部的預算都突然間的大幅增長把其他的都壓下來那這個會失去平衡性的所以我們也不容許財務的規劃是這樣子OK那再來還有一點就是美國海外這個軍購的流程過去我們有了解就是說從以前到現在其實大概它的流程是有分四個階段比如說第一階段是買方巡加拉第二階段採購協調第三階段就是智慧國會跟簽訂這個發價數"},{"start":21960.723,"end":21987.98,"text":"第四階段就会进入这个执行的这个阶段那现在在野党呢他坚持就是说你要拿到这个美国的发架书呢我们才要让你来编预算那像之前呢我有听我们部长对媒体曾经说过说像过往过往其实都是在美方提出供售医院的时候呢其实我们就来这个编列这个预算然后送成这个预算这等于就是说"},{"start":21988.76,"end":22013.019,"text":"在野黨現在在第三階段拿到發價書他才要編預算可是第三階段到第四階段當中時間是非常的緊迫據本席所知是只有45天因為第一階段第二階段其實我們了解說像這個時間是非常的冗長可能需要兩年的時間可是第三階段到第四階段其實只有45天的這個時間我想請教院長如果"},{"start":22013.439,"end":22029.044,"text":"以後所有的這個對美軍購都必須要拿到這個發價書然後呢我們才要來編這個預算對整個時間的這個壓力來講那會不會造成到後來來不及可能整個軍購案的產生變化"},{"start":22030.564,"end":22052.923,"text":"會不會有這種狀況?我來請部長答問,很謝謝委員而肯定委員對於這個軍購程序的這樣一個專業的對話而不是用常識來詢問這個部長所以提出這幾項都是我們軍購現在面臨的一些專業上的程序問題那至於說是不是發價書來了以後我們再編預算這樣不正當的言論請部長來做說明"},{"start":22054.604,"end":22078.128,"text":"我想委員已經在說明很清楚也就是說我們LOA出去之後那麼提出這個供售的意願之後那我們應該就要編列這個預算的計畫那麼這個叫做計畫預算制度那送進來之後讓委員有時間好好的審查認為這一個美方有一個供售的意願那我們這個有購買的意願"},{"start":22081.469,"end":22100.236,"text":"立法院同不同意這樣的一個預算案那預算案如果還沒有知會國會之前我們就採機密預算的方式來選勝利那如果已經知會國會我們就公開那現在這個所有過往以來都是按照這個程序所以特別再打拆一下所謂的過往當然也包含了國民黨"},{"start":22101.936,"end":22117.112,"text":"執政的時候對美軍共也是這麼進行的嘛對不對不管是年度預算或者是用特別預算的方式都是先送出這個預算案出來來供委員審查因為委員要有時間來了解這整個預算的一個必要性"},{"start":22117.572,"end":22137.575,"text":"那這個預算的標籤審查完之後那麼剛剛已經講了他還有兩段程序一個是智慧國會的程序那事實上智慧國會完之後就已經正式的表明了美方對我們的承諾了因為軍售就是一個美方對我們的承諾那這樣的一個承諾已經出來之後說還要等到這個發下俗"},{"start":22138.115,"end":22159.224,"text":"我覺得這個都跟我們的計劃預算的這種制度完全不合所以很可能那如果說再舉個例子來講好了我們剛剛通過的這個國防特別條例他們當然在野黨他的版本當然就是說有拿到發價書他就列在這上頭了所以明天這個預算就進來了"},{"start":22161.426,"end":22178.3,"text":"對他就會變成有一個就像現在這個問題就是說現在只是特別條例過對不對各位都還沒有看到這個預算案對不對那現在就是說那我們就馬上提預算那事實上我們發價書簽訂那個時候我們本來預算過才能夠簽訂發價書這個立法有決議的所以本來是要預算通過我們才能夠簽訂發價書所以當時為什麼還要"},{"start":22186.923,"end":22213.656,"text":"這個立法院特別還要開個會來授權我們簽署這個發架書就是因為當時不但說預算還沒有過連特別條例都還沒有過所以我們還要請立法院先行授權這是第一個第二個就是說我們國會之後事實上已經確定了美方的一個正式已經成案了那在這個時候為什麼一定要等到發架書過來我其實一直不太理解"},{"start":22214.716,"end":22241.174,"text":"所以刻意刁難嘛部長應該同意啊我雖然不敢自費這個大院的議程排定但是今天跟明天這兩個議程應該是倒過來才對是的OK好那再來一個時間的關係我再問一下因為大家都很關心海馬士多管火箭系統因為本來對首期款原定是在今年的3月30號要付款那後續呢已經延到5月31號那今天已經5月19號了請問這個部分"},{"start":22243.556,"end":22272.021,"text":"我們5月31號有可能付這個款項嗎有可能嗎如果預算還沒有過的話我們就是引用預算法的84條先行請求我們同意能夠支付讓我們國防部就協調我們用既有的預算然後來在立法院這個在行政院 對不起在行政院同意之下依照預算法的84條我們先行支付好 現在看起來我們對美"},{"start":22286.251,"end":22291.755,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝卓院長下一位請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請院長請院長備詢"},{"start":22317.173,"end":22342.145,"text":"院長午安院長今天因為特別主要是針對特別條例的部分那剛剛有委員有關切到就是F16V這個部分部長有提到說今年可能會有一架會先回來台灣那我想要請教一下這個F16V要回台灣的這一架裡面有沒有電站夾藏"},{"start":22344.717,"end":22371.409,"text":"現在他這個這一架有50幾架已經在線上作業我說這一架有沒有電站夾艙部長說我們有到有相關人員去了解過來對我跟索英跟委員報告並不是說只有回來一架我是說預期今年的9月可能會先回來這個好部長沒關係不管回來幾架我現在要知道的是說我們如果現在要回來的F16V裡面有沒有電站夾艙"},{"start":22373.428,"end":22390.597,"text":"電站夾艙的部分今年要來的我的了解是可能應該我們的第一架的電站夾因為我買的並不是每一個飛機上面都有這個電站夾艙有我們現在F16V上面都是有內建式的電站夾艙當時我們F16AB升級案是"},{"start":22394.119,"end":22421.158,"text":"本來有要做電站夾艙後來就是因為採購了後面這66架因為裡面有內建所以那時候就把那些案子稍微停下來我們現在還沒有追究原來的那些預算用到哪裡去了可是我們要知道的是現在F16V如果要回來今年要回來裡面有沒有電站夾艙因為告訴我們的是有我們買的預算裡面也是有"},{"start":22421.618,"end":22450.142,"text":"所以這個部分我們請國防部到時候釐清楚以後我們可以讓我們所有的全民很清楚好不好各位報告大概因為剛剛講的電站假倉因為我的了解是有居手的假倉還有紅外線徵收了一個假倉那電站假倉那這個部分我說的是電站假倉如果你說的是電站假倉的部分的話那應該是在F16V裡面F16V有所以我們今年回來的就會有是嗎"},{"start":22452.322,"end":22469.094,"text":"因為當時一直還沒有辦法回來這個也是一個很重要的因素因為不知道要決定哪一行如果說他今年可以回來表示裡面已經有決定而且裡面已經裝設了因為他是內建式的這個部分我先提醒我們的"},{"start":22470.295,"end":22491.577,"text":"行政院還有我們的國防部如果你說今年會回來我們希望他回來的就是我們買到的這些裝備都要齊全這是我們在這裡先提醒好不好對現在電站牆上在我想因為我們要求所以在研發這個當中那我想我們我下去會再確定一下那不是研發照理說他本來就有"},{"start":22491.817,"end":22512.487,"text":"可是他就for Taiwan所以他到底用什麼我們不知道可是已經今年最後一年沒有理由說他還沒有這樣子的一個決定性如果他能回來的話所以這個部分因為時間的關係顯然部長目前沒有辦法有確切的答案我們先在這裡做一個詢問如果有的話他是什麼樣的電站夾艙"},{"start":22514.148,"end":22539.719,"text":"那它今年會不會在我們的裝備裡面我先請教現在我們在接下來大概就是針對我們這個特別條例的部分當然行政院很希望通過的是1.25兆可是我們最後通過的版本為什麼會是7800億其實也是有經過大家的一些考量我們一直在講"},{"start":22540.399,"end":22554.457,"text":"尤其是軍事專業的大家很喜歡講物是抵之不來,事無有以待之所謂的有以待之那個有是應該要有具備相當的這些準備"},{"start":22557.401,"end":22572.21,"text":"包括我們的武器裝備那個有不是有預算就好了因為我們常常過去編了很多的預算我們看到很多的例子我們待會可以來討論一下我們當然希望有啊但委員把預算刪掉就是讓我們沒有沒有敵就來啦"},{"start":22574.073,"end":22598.747,"text":"院長我們先讓你等一下我會讓你知道我們為什麼沒有我們為什麼沒有你現在說的有 院長剛剛你提到了嘛我說不是有預算是要有武器裝備那個東西我們已經付了錢我們先講你已經付了錢的你不要講還沒有的你以前付了錢都還沒有拿到"},{"start":22599.247,"end":22618.688,"text":"你以前付的錢都還沒有剛剛講的F16V就是一個你們到現在也沒有辦法今年最後一年本來66架今年要倒欸如果你這樣講這是完全失職我們現在希望可以討論的是這個部分當你有很多都沒有到位的時候我隨便再舉一個例子好了"},{"start":22620.109,"end":22642.122,"text":"標槍飛彈你們一直在說發架書我們有一個次針飛彈次針飛彈二屋戰爭在打的時候我還有印象我們有民進黨的王定宇委員他還特別很高興的說像烏克蘭連一個老奶奶都可以拿著次針飛彈就可以打敵人很容易操作間歇式的"},{"start":22643.476,"end":22654.123,"text":"可是我們在113年就因為這樣的理由不知道是不是啦我們本來買500枚在113年的時候我們又增加買多買了2000多枚從113 114起案我們有我們是破"},{"start":22661.289,"end":22667.455,"text":"就是增加購買從130億先聽我講完從130億增加到690億我們114年也有編預算今年也有編預算可是次增飛彈的發價書到目前為止還沒有來對不對"},{"start":22682.439,"end":22692.807,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個次增費單就是您講的現在就是說我們原來採購500枚的次增費單我們預計在今年底對今年那個是其他的我說我們這兩年還有發價書還沒有來對不對另外2121枚的部分確實還沒有取得發價書"},{"start":22701.453,"end":22726.927,"text":"對 已經兩年了 我們錢都編喔去年也編 今年也編可是發價書還沒來所以剛剛你們在討論很多發價書或者在特別條例討論的過程當中一直把發價書拿出來講我們要講的是 即使他們同意了 我們錢也編了他都不見得來這個是我們今天要特別提出來我們希望 那這個預算案就會要先通過嘛所以我們"},{"start":22727.447,"end":22743.313,"text":"花價書確實沒有來這件事情我們要跟美方來商議但是我剛剛講的只是說我們計畫預算的精神就是說我們只要確定美方有供受意願我們就會先提出這個預算來供委員他有供受意願所以我們過了啊我們特別預算這個部分讓他過了"},{"start":22744.053,"end":22759.853,"text":"可是我要提醒的是我們有很多在這裡因為沒有辦法一一舉例在省預算的時候我們會提出來我們還有多少東西沒有拿到發酵書可是我們錢一直編一直編一直編那就更不要說我們武器裝備什麼時候會拿到發酵書就沒有付款的問題嗎沒有取得嗎"},{"start":22762.155,"end":22777.45,"text":"部長那個是錯的那不是沒有付款的問題你已經把它放到我們的戶頭裡面它已經框在那裡你的錢如果框在那裡你也沒有辦法用在別的地方我們家SRV的戶頭那個還是屬於我們的而且還有支息啊這個是屬於我們控制的"},{"start":22777.79,"end":22807.005,"text":"我們不要那些利息是你把錢框在那裡你就沒有辦法用到別的地方如果你今天這個條例過了然後明天又要一個條例後天又要一個條例如果你有很多沒有辦法到貨可是錢框在那裡並沒有用我們要的是有以待之是有那個武器裝備這是我們一直要強調的因為剛剛羅委員提出四個程序那就是現在國際上以及我跟美方均購的這個正常的程序先有供售的意願"},{"start":22812.446,"end":22832.312,"text":"外交官委員這麼久應該也知道這個預算的這個程序都是先先有美黃共識委員我們就先行提出來了過去發價書其實從來沒有發生問題所以只有在特別條例這裡出現那麼多這個你們可以去細究他的理念你說這一次的特別條例嗎沒有啊不是特別條例是發價書沒有這麼多問題我沒有時間跟兩位"},{"start":22836.093,"end":22857.156,"text":"你現在有28個案子那當然你可以挑出其中某一個案子說還沒有取得發酵素但是也有提前交運也有準時交運的那當然我們也不可否認也有一些延宕交運部長如果你要討論這一些如果你要討論這一些我們就要從頭來講了你F16V是我們最重要的主力戰機是現在空軍"},{"start":22858.357,"end":22885.504,"text":"最依靠的一個戰機F16AV到現在十幾年了還沒有完成F16V買了到現在最後一年66架還沒有到貨我們的潛艦往後延了兩年你們那個一邊是14年說因為要扒燒所以才可以阻敵於台灣海峽之外事實上台灣海峽根本不適合放潛艦可是當你們要潛的時候有人居然說那扒燒是經過"},{"start":22887.304,"end":22907.969,"text":"美國的兵推還有台灣的漢光演習驗證了結果那巴沙我們取得最快最快要16年以後還有我們的魚雷魚雷就是潛艦的武器今天我們潛艦機制做得再好今天如果讓你一個都做好了你沒有魚雷跟沒有拳頭是一樣的"},{"start":22908.729,"end":22932.305,"text":"今天我們的M16AB我們的飛彈系統到現在還沒有到貨已經超過好幾年了如果沒有飛彈它也等同於它的攻擊性其實是弱的如果你們要講這些的話我們現在要討論的是希望談別的我們有很多東西延宕來包括M1A2包括我們這個地表最強"},{"start":22934.912,"end":22960.457,"text":"我還沒講完M1A2它今年最後一批到貨可是你知道我們的訊廠還沒有做好嗎訊廠是我們台灣自己做的工廠到現在還沒有做好每一項都可以去講那我也可以要講M1A2到現在總預算都還沒有過人家已經交了總預算還沒有過對啊我們的M1A2最後一批的預算還沒有過哪一個部分沒有過M1A2戰車最後一批"},{"start":22962.691,"end":22979.524,"text":"我們今年總預算還沒過總預算還沒過你還是可以支出啊你還是可以支出啊這個部分部長你很清楚我講的如果不能支出的是這個部分而且你很清楚如果在我們的那個戶頭裡面其實它是可以支用的因為它不是算的剛剛好"},{"start":22986.269,"end":23008.436,"text":"所以跟總預算是沒有關係的這個你非常清楚我們利用一點時間因為根據媒體的報導行政院是認為本次通過的版本排除商購以及偽製案嚴重損及國防建軍完整性以及五年兵力整建施政規劃跟排序會造成國防戰力的缺口會影響國內相關產業自主發展措施"},{"start":23011.297,"end":23026.992,"text":"跟國際安全供應鏈接軌的寶貴時機所以就這些部分認為遭刪除的部分會影響未來指管決策權益爭執還有台灣之盾防衛韌性台美合作等等我們就這個特別條例的部分我們先簡單來"},{"start":23028.814,"end":23043.65,"text":"討論一下因為最近執政黨也一直不斷的用說刪減特別條例的預算就是在削弱台灣的防衛然後不照原案全數通過就是反對國防等等所以甚至把所有被"},{"start":23044.471,"end":23058.183,"text":"包括被檢視還有被刪減要求說明的這個項目都包裝成一句話叫台灣之盾那本席今天要特別講清楚的是我們沒有反對建軍可是我們反對錯誤的建軍這個部分"},{"start":23060.905,"end":23086.698,"text":"我們也不是不買武器可是不要買錯方向或買錯時間買錯系統最後花了天價也沒有形成真正的戰力因為國防預算它也不是政治口號也不是抗中保台就可以跳過監督首先我們來看看所謂的台灣之盾它到底是戰力還是採購清單因為現在國防部是把徵程型愛國者飛彈三型PAC"},{"start":23091.02,"end":23108.37,"text":"3MSE還有地對空飛彈還有包括像新雷達還有IBCS整合防空系統天宮三型強攻飛彈普魯爪雷達這些全部畫到一張圖裡面說這是台灣之盾好像這樣就可以形成一個"},{"start":23110.171,"end":23122.552,"text":"完整的防空網可是本席想要請問院長跟部長這裡面剛剛提到的你們畫到這個防空網台灣之盾裡面的這些東西有哪些東西已經到貨"},{"start":23124.281,"end":23146.634,"text":"有多少系統已經完成整合然後有多少鏈路已經完成跨系統的接站測試或者有多少我們還在等他的還停留在這個軍售的規劃或發架書或者交貨的等待階段可不可以簡單的說明一下我們剛剛講的這些"},{"start":23147.094,"end":23161.642,"text":"跟委員報告大概就是說整體的防空系統我們可以分成高中低然後有反彈反飛機跟反無人機那這三個不同的一個防禦的都會有不同的武器所以現在要努力建置的就是在於這一個"},{"start":23162.342,"end":23187.729,"text":"我們將既有的跟現在或者每次的以及未來的或者我們透過一個整合的矛盾系統來連結對好這個火力協調你沒有聽清楚我的問題我知道高空低我說我剛剛念的那些就是高空低你們所謂的防禦可是這裡面哪些是經過驗測通過的是成熟的產品是經過你鏈路已經有可以連接的"},{"start":23188.149,"end":23203.038,"text":"或者經過相關的測試這些有哪些已經做過了你可不可以提出來包括魚叉焙蛋跟雄蜂系列的廢蛋我們到現在還沒有辦法整合你未來要整合這麼多你要怎麼做台灣之盾"},{"start":23207.421,"end":23221.226,"text":"部長你一直沒有聽清楚我說的我說台灣之頓你這些東西有哪些是你已經有經過接戰測試有多少鏈路已經完成這樣子的一個相關的整合"},{"start":23243.392,"end":23246.875,"text":"好,謝謝馬委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請沈伯陽委員質詢"},{"start":23263.033,"end":23266.455,"text":"今天當然是我們要來討論這整個軍購預算的一個詢答"},{"start":23289.878,"end":23306.999,"text":"但是我剛剛前面也聽了非常多委員詢問相關的問題我覺得畢竟全民都在關注這件事情所以我覺得趁這個時候再來釐清一些事項第一個就是我發現在今天很多的問答當中實在有一些道果為因的問題"},{"start":23308.18,"end":23332.729,"text":"那我為什麼這樣講就是因為那個院長應該都還記得這一個去年的這一個光復鄉所發生的事情那我們過了這一個馬太安的這個特別條例那匡列了這一個300億那這個就算有這個馬太安的特別條例我們的預算還是要重新送到立法院這個細項還是要審查那審查之後呢然後也才能夠去動用這是整個順序"},{"start":23334.158,"end":23340.535,"text":"那這個特別條例的通過一直到預算細項的提出一直到立法院的審議這是一個過程"},{"start":23342.318,"end":23369.415,"text":"那我舉個例子當時這個馬太安條例裡面就講說我們為了要振興這個光復鄉我們要買一些農業的機具這個是條例規定說要買農業機具那預算的時候呢當然就可能才會有細項我到底是買哪一種農業機具我買的可能是日本的哪一個牌子的或者國產的哪一個牌子的農業機具然後到最後要買的時候呢也有可能會面臨到比如說對方剛好沒有貨"},{"start":23370.751,"end":23384.91,"text":"但是我們剛剛在討論的整個過程當中我發現很多人都會把這個後面這個沒有貨所以我前面不要訂這個條例這是一件很奇怪的事情因為需求跟供給這完全是兩件事"},{"start":23385.751,"end":23412.362,"text":"我們今天去討論這個軍購是因為我們有需求不是因為對方有攻擊比如說馬太安我們的需求就是我們要重建這個光復箱我們有這個需求所以為了這個需求我們要買什麼我們要買什麼我們要買什麼然後我們要蓋橋等等的這個是我們的需求能夠滿足我們的需求的很多啊各式各樣的廠商都可能會滿足這個需求"},{"start":23413.919,"end":23431.226,"text":"但我們現在卻一直在道果為因說我看到你之前有這一個需求所以你匡列了這個預算但是有東西還沒有到那我們以後就不要匡列了難道我們會因為這樣就沒有要重建的需求嗎那以軍購來講我們的需求是要建立這個不對稱的戰力"},{"start":23433.16,"end":23444.11,"text":"那照理說我們要建立不對稱戰力這件事情的需求從頭到尾都不會有任何的改變啊那我們需要這個不對稱戰力的需求所需要的金額就是長這個樣子"},{"start":23445.356,"end":23472.564,"text":"而這個金額當然有可能會因為廠商的變動然後這個金額可能會高高低低到做付款的時候可能也會有一些不管是立法院的刪減還是對方的問題這都可能發生但是不影響到我們說我們的需求有1.25兆我們要來做這件事情所以我覺得這件事情還是要來跟國人釐清就是說我們一直在聽到一些各式各樣的說法但這些說法其實都不符合事實"},{"start":23473.544,"end":23484.08,"text":"但我現在在裡面我現在非常擔心的一點就是因為在這一次我們通過的同時其實是刪減了將近四成多快五成的這樣的一個金額"},{"start":23485.034,"end":23513.197,"text":"那他其實重點不是金額而是他有一些項目不給購買那你目前來講沒有購買的項目就像上面寫的有指管的系統有無人機有台美合作然後還有一些彈藥的儲備這一些都是不對稱戰力的一環但是我們在立法院的時候在條例的時候就直接把它拿掉了就好像在馬太安你說你要買農業機具他直接在條例就把你農業機具拿掉說你要重建這個家園不准你買農業機具是這樣的意思"},{"start":23514.838,"end":23534.297,"text":"但我覺得這件事情很危險因為重點是理由我從以前到現在每一次國防外交我聽到他們講的理由永遠都是啊 這個是傷口 這個是偽製我們不要放進去那就又回到我剛剛講的我們今天國家有國防戰力的需求這件事情"},{"start":23534.998,"end":23562.343,"text":"跟你到底是軍購還是商貨還是偽製完全沒有任何關係啊那是你買東西的方式嘛就是說這就好像說我今天呢要跟媽媽說啊我需要一百塊我想要去買晚餐那這一個一百塊到底是用linepay還是用現金還是用信用卡支付我都一樣我的需求是一百塊我要填飽我的肚子所以你要怎麼去買這些東西照理說不應該是你今天在條例上刪除的理由嘛"},{"start":23563.041,"end":23586.079,"text":"所以我在想說會不會有更深層的理由所以在這邊呢我先問一個小問題就是這一張圖上面最上面那個指管系統這個指揮管理的系統非常的重要我之前在描述的時候一直在講說這就像是一個大腦我們買那些不管是我們有彈藥我們有飛彈那個是手腳但一定要有一個大腦可以指揮嘛需要有一個AI整合的系統"},{"start":23587.25,"end":23598.463,"text":"那我想問不然部長院長都可以回答就是這個AI的指揮管理的這個系統佔我們1.25兆的金額是佔非常多嗎還是佔一小部分而已"},{"start":23599.629,"end":23616.935,"text":"就金額來講並不是在這裡面算是高的金額但是是屬於我們整體的防衛作戰需求裡面的一個關鍵性的一個項目那這些這樣子的一個部分如果遭到刪減的話這個整個不對稱的戰略鏈會有形成中斷的問題"},{"start":23618.355,"end":23631.464,"text":"這個就是像大腦癱瘓的意思你有一個指揮管理的系統結果你不能讓你空有這些飛彈結果你那個指揮管理的系統沒有辦法有效的運作這就是一個問題然後它的金額我們在機密會議什麼之類我們都看過那個確實的金額"},{"start":23633.154,"end":23650.279,"text":"他佔這個1.25兆並不是很大的一個數目所以我現在因為最近我們在審國防的總預算嘛然後我就看我在看這些提案的時候我就發現你們看這邊有陸軍的有海軍的有空軍的有資通電的有參謀本部的"},{"start":23651.159,"end":23671.466,"text":"這一些全部都是跟通信電子跟資管你看到右邊數過來第二欄有凍結百分之三十的好幾個甚至有全案凍結的然後也有直接減煉一億的這個所謂的通信電子跟資管裡面非常重要的一塊就叫做職管戰力"},{"start":23672.182,"end":23688.331,"text":"因為我們今天要做指揮要做監督需要通訊嘛我們需要系統嘛所以連我們本來喔連我們本來有的擁有的這個指揮監督的這個系統裡面所有的年度的預算已經遭到針對了"},{"start":23689.432,"end":23716.366,"text":"可以看到這一個表格它是完全在針對我們的指揮管理系統不要凍結要刪除這看起來不太正常也就是說從特別條例不通過這一個明明就不是佔很大金額的一個指揮管理的一個統一的AI的這個系統一直到我們年度預算跟這個相關的預算都直接要擋下來說這個是要監督我實在不太相信因為這個太精準了"},{"start":23717.065,"end":23735.602,"text":"就是你等於明明有一個指揮管理的系統這些所有的東西才可以運作他就說我其他東西我給你買沒有關係但我不給你指揮我不給你下指令那這個是一個問題委員的邏輯以及剛剛講的這個這樣論述非常非常清楚就像我們的AI新時代建設一樣我們最頂端的那個就是"},{"start":23736.623,"end":23764.137,"text":"軟體的登峰計畫因為我們現在有很好的硬體製造如果我們沒有軟體的整合這些就只是製造硬體供別人使用而已所以這個AI輔助系統所謂這個絕感這個部分就是我們所說的把它整合在一起因此這些的部分是整個大腦系統中的中樞神經有了它我們所有的這些裝備我們可以把它串聯起來成為一個有效的防衛"},{"start":23765.465,"end":23782.692,"text":"再來我們還有引進高科技AI的擊殺鏈我們就可以有反擊的能力甚至我們未來發展製作產業我們就不用步步受制於一定要向外採購而且發展整個的產業發展起來所以這個是極端重要的一環我說三塊拼圖缺一不可"},{"start":23783.873,"end":23799.587,"text":"所以這就是我覺得很奇怪的一件事情因為從頭到尾不是說有沒有金額的問題而是說就好像我今天買一台電腦他說我都讓你組裝滑鼠、鍵盤、記憶體、主機板我什麼都給你買結果我不給你灌Windows那請問這台電腦要怎麼運作"},{"start":23801.189,"end":23829.798,"text":"又或者說呢我給你慣了結果呢我不讓你有防火牆我讓你拿走了連線的能力這個聽起來都不正常啊所以這個指揮管理的系統我認為被針對這是一個很嚴重社會必須要關注的事情但不是只有這一件而已剛剛我們還看到我們在特別條例的時候立法院這邊又把剛剛講的無人機產業嘛就是把這些偽製啊等等之類的又把它拿掉那我就回到然後他們那時候講的一句話我記得一直在講說什麼"},{"start":23830.798,"end":23858.666,"text":"說你就把這個編到年度預算去就好啦但是第一個我們如果為了要扶植產業它本來就是多年期的計畫這是第一個第二個就是今天所謂的這一個無人機它能夠金額它所需要的要能夠編到年度預算那個年度預算的那個額度已經沒那麼多了嘛只剩84嘛好但是我就想說沒關係就像按照你們講的把它編到年度預算去但我們就來看接下來的年度預算"},{"start":23859.876,"end":23877.772,"text":"這一個是我們今年的年度預算跟無人載具有關的可以看到陸軍司令部這一個全案檢列7億因為這個是屬於多...這一個是因為有好幾年的我記得它總額是8億直接拿掉7億"},{"start":23879.215,"end":23888.529,"text":"而且這裡面還包含什麼呢它還包含了這個裡面我去看它的細項它包含了就是你的無人機有了之後你要怎麼去訓練它們怎麼飛連這個都拿掉"},{"start":23892.758,"end":23914.18,"text":"這個就莫名其妙啦你如果說好啊就編到年度預算了的確我們過往的年度預算國防部跟經濟部有過一些合作還在做一些模型機然後想看要往哪個方向前進然後還有這個你看最下面這一項軍備局的研發因為你要研發你才有辦法知道我們在國內我們到底能夠做到什麼程度嘛"},{"start":23916.501,"end":23938.837,"text":"按照他們講的已經年度預算有一些在這裡面啊結果看起來也是被針對啊直接可以減列五億可以直接減列七億這個又是一個針對現在就表示是騙術嘛你在審特別條例的時候跟別人講說你編到年度預算你在年度預算的時候你針對無人機你還是砍啊所以表示他們根本就沒有想要無人機無人載具在這邊發展"},{"start":23941.119,"end":23959.378,"text":"我們都為人父母我們希望小孩子有足夠的營養有時候給他正餐有時候給他點心你不能正餐也拿掉一點點心也拿掉一點但是小孩就沒有營養的足夠國防也是一樣我們有的用公務預算有的用特別預算為的是特別預算他為了特別的正式需求"},{"start":23961.425,"end":23981.108,"text":"比較長時間穩定的一個預算的供給另外排除一些債務舉債的一個限制他一定有他特殊必須性那麼對公務預算就不會太嚴重的排擠到一般的民生一般的經濟一般的科技發展這是我們在財務規劃上所必須要做的衡量所以委員很清楚"},{"start":23981.488,"end":24007.143,"text":"但是一定要我們把它編在全部編在公務預算那真的是有困難那我們要編特別預算又要遭受每一次這樣重複的一再的但是我還是認為只要心存台灣真的要保衛台灣就給小孩子營養就給國家國安這個心情如果大家一致的話那台灣將可以一直永續的生存下去因為我覺得當時要提這個特別預算除了它是多年期以外"},{"start":24008.344,"end":24024.454,"text":"他是一個總計畫除了這個之外其實目的就是不想要去排擠公務預算我們想要讓社福想要讓教育文化的預算都能夠維持在一定的水準所以才會去用特別預算你叫他把它擠回到原本的公務預算到最後就形成排擠效應了"},{"start":24025.194,"end":24041.883,"text":"行程派起效益之後那他們又有話講所以這就變成是一個套套邏輯從頭到尾他們在特別條例裡面所宣稱的事情我光是看他們這一次提出來的提案就跟他們在特別條例講出來的是矛盾的所以希望因為國防預算馬上就要審了"},{"start":24042.443,"end":24069.05,"text":"那我覺得國防部真的也必須要堅實的要捍衛這些立場因為這個是慢慢在侵蝕我們國防最重要的部位如果這些事情不斷在發生下去的話不要說什麼不對稱戰力了我們連原本戰力的保持都會出現問題我都還沒有講到彈藥喔因為彈藥自從我們開始不管是因為我們的14天的訓練還有我們現在151的訓練內容的改良這一些事情都讓我們的彈藥變得越來越重要"},{"start":24070.612,"end":24092.935,"text":"但是連這件事情在好好的能夠在國防外交委員會討論都已經不可得最後我還是要再提一個就是台美合作因為台美合作照樣也有全案簡列四千萬這一個台美共同研發台美共同合作因為台美共同合作這一次也一樣的在我們的特別條例被立法院拿掉了"},{"start":24093.686,"end":24118.365,"text":"美國其實是我們很堅實的那個民主的同盟然後他所能夠提供的這些技術還有移轉對我們來講是十分的重要所以台美合作不是只有在特別條例裡面而已我們原本的跟台美之間的交流雙邊的交流人員的交流這個本來也都在國防部內部的這個預算編列裡年度預算的編列"},{"start":24119.606,"end":24144.884,"text":"結果我看到非常精準又照樣又繼續提出這一個那你不是說不要再特別條例要到年度預算嗎就你到年度預算的時候你又再繼續提出來然後要把這個交流砍斷這個對我來說這個針對性實在是太高了所以從他們那時候的文字的使用把飛鴻供應鏈拿掉把台灣之盾拿掉就剛剛那個防空系統把無人產業拿掉這個"},{"start":24146.085,"end":24162.243,"text":"第一個他不想讓我們來扶植台灣內部的產業他也不想要有台美的合作他也不想要有雙邊的交流然後還要把非紅供應鏈特別拿掉這整件事情對我們的影響實在十分巨大那因為時間的關係是否院長或部長再做一個總結"},{"start":24164.785,"end":24183.43,"text":"我想剛剛委員說明很清楚也就是說我們台美的共同我想聽過精密專報都知道它是非常的重要那跟既有的台美的交流它有更重要的一個意義所以我們很希望台美共同研發採購這個項目好 謝謝謝謝沈委員"},{"start":24191.324,"end":24214.795,"text":"謝謝卓院長 下一位請徐喬興委員質詢謝謝主席 我們是不是有請卓榮泰院長跟顧立雄部長請卓院長還有顧部長備詢"},{"start":24222.802,"end":24238.995,"text":"學員好我先請教一下部長因為您剛在這個跟馬文俊委員質詢的時候提到了這個我們的M1A2T那我剛好就想請教M1A2T的預算是在哪一年的時候開始編列的M1A2T的預算"},{"start":24241.229,"end":24251.512,"text":"你剛講這麼快講這麼大聲我現在問你又要等這麼久不是很有把握嗎因為您問的問題是說M1A2T在什麼時候開始編列的這個開始編列的啊總額多少錢呢M1A2"},{"start":24260.12,"end":24276.945,"text":"我找一下慢慢等你喔我只有15分鐘的質詢時間M1A2T這麼重要的你剛剛問了老半天說哎呀因為這個預算今年的還沒有審查但他是一個非新興預算的M1A2T是108年到116年沒錯從2019年就開始編列的"},{"start":24280.046,"end":24300.306,"text":"它是一個連續性的分年的編列的預算所以既有的分年付款的情況之下即便在現在還沒有審議完畢之前它是可以動之的所以當初編列了405億我們每一年從2019年開始我們都有編列相關的預算我現在要問的是"},{"start":24301.254,"end":24302.796,"text":"我據我了解是我們現在還在接樁的過程當中沒有任何缺樁"},{"start":24321.935,"end":24338.037,"text":"或者是有任何後景維持上面的任何問題所以你的意思是說在國軍地雄他們在這個MIHT這邊講到的缺料然後妥善率有低然後他們維修的過程當中出現了一些問題這個是假消息是嗎"},{"start":24338.858,"end":24354.529,"text":"對 就我跟陸軍的了解因為我們現在相關的我們相關的獲得成本裡面就會有包括兩到三年的不實的被人了解因為很多國軍弟兄在反映跟關注既然你說是假的 那你自己去跟他們解釋"},{"start":24355.109,"end":24370.345,"text":"我今天要針對的是我們FMS的這個無人機來做詢問那我們的FMS軍售的部分呢有OTS600跟OTS700的兩款攻擊型的無人機它的金額一共是在發價數上面來說的話是350億的這個台幣"},{"start":24374.77,"end":24398.912,"text":"我請問一下,到時候預算送進來,這兩款無人機的預算會是多少錢?這是目前可以公開的嗎?你們會送多少預算進來,針對這兩款無人機?因為Artis的這個600的ISR跟700的部分,我們是在5月16號才獲得一個發價數的草案所以我們現在在執行這個發價數內容的磋商跟簽署作業"},{"start":24399.292,"end":24419.777,"text":"你不是馬上要送預算進來了嗎那你們不是要擠海馬遜不是5月31號沒有的話就來不及我們這是頭皮啊所以我問你 你預算送進來 預算是多少錢大院要求我們現在一定要在特別條例之後要專案報告有可能送給市長所以你說你的規定是錯錯錯你真的很急嘛所以發價書上面的金額不會是預算的金額 這個是對的吧"},{"start":24425.899,"end":24444.199,"text":"那所以我現在問你的說發價書是350億那預算是多少啊你現在應該可以回答我啦我們現在是根據發價書的草案來編制這個預算的金額所以你的預算送進來也只是發價書的部分的你用發價書上面的金額來送的預算一模一樣你要打算送350億進來是嗎"},{"start":24447.801,"end":24474.341,"text":"確切的金額我要再看一下因為每一個案你現在看我給你一點時間你現在看因為我要談的事情是說你們一直講很急你們一直說這個專案報告的話會讓他很多事情delay你們一直在講說至少第一批的軍售應該是已經除了發價書之外你要送預算你可以送進來那你現在就要告訴我那預算要送多少這是一個合情合理的問題查好了嗎"},{"start":24475.442,"end":24488.654,"text":"那個發價數的草案依照發價數草案的金額現在編列的全案是330億330億對所以你們會送進來的預算是330億ok好那我接下來要問就是說為什麼我們國軍在建軍的時候我們要向美方去採購OTS系列的600跟700的型號而不是其他的型號"},{"start":24498.323,"end":24522.831,"text":"我们对于这两款无人机以及这一架无人机的公司之所以我们国防部在建军的时候需要它喜欢它的原因在哪边呢为什么我们觉得它比其他的无人机比如我们拥有MQ-9B啊比如我们拥有弹簧包啊为什么要特别买OTS-600跟700它对于我们的建军作战的需求好在哪里"},{"start":24523.971,"end":24544.882,"text":"公衛報告MQ-9B是高高空的偵查是是是 有沒有很多不同的 我都知道那個那個公信人跟這個那一樣 我清楚 我還做了表格給你看我沒說他們是一樣的 不要誤解我我問的是為什麼我們要特別找這一個LTS600跟700委員能不能讓我講一下要要 我要讓你講啊 你不要誤解我啊"},{"start":24545.942,"end":24570.017,"text":"台灣大的部分是人員殺傷型的那Artis-700主要是它對於這個反裝甲的一個攻擊的力道強那麼Artis-600的ISR是為了要做監偵也就是這兩個搭配的也就是說通過Artis-600的ISR給它這個勤監證資料以後Artis-700的M可以用這個對裝甲器這個載具來進行攻擊那這個是美軍的一個現役的裝備"},{"start":24574.58,"end":24594.043,"text":"那我想要問一下我們對於這個OTS系列的無人機在烏克蘭戰場上面的運作我們有沒有先去了解我們的了解是英國也用了我問的是烏克蘭我問的是烏克蘭為什麼要問烏克蘭因為這是戰場實戰經驗英國現在沒有在打仗英國買了之後來支援給烏克蘭然後用了怎麼樣"},{"start":24605.325,"end":24620.045,"text":"效果沒有不好我們來看一下華爾街日報在去年11月下旬的時候的報導提到了我們確實經常失敗也就是這家公司Ongio它在武器技術領域在要挫折以外"},{"start":24620.606,"end":24637.993,"text":"底下的這個military女士烏克蘭最著名的軍事跟國防新聞媒體他寫到的是經常失去通信無法擊中目標容易受到俄羅斯電戰系統的攻擊最後在2024年放棄了使用這樣子的無人機請問一下"},{"start":24638.453,"end":24649.958,"text":"是不是烏克蘭國家安全局SACU在戰場施令後目前已經放棄了OTS的高級型無人機在他們的戰場現在就使用有沒有這個信我跟委員報告我以美國陸軍美國陸軍的第七部兵師在2025年9月就實際驗測了這個無人機系統的作戰驗證而且是成功的我問的是戰場的實戰經驗你只要回答我剛剛的問題"},{"start":24668.425,"end":24675.493,"text":"請問OTS的無人機是否現在還在烏克蘭的戰場他們戰爭還在進行喔請問是否還在他們戰場上繼續實戰還有沒有在使用我相信英國會採購這個OTS600M跟OTS700M來提供烏克蘭使用這是驗證了這個OTS700跟600的一個實戰的功能"},{"start":24689.949,"end":24708.473,"text":"因為你驗證歸驗證我問的是你的戰場的實戰嘛那我問你烏克蘭現在還有沒有在用你沒有回答我問題啊我剛剛問你的問題你沒有回答我啊我問你A你答我B啊還有沒有在用很簡單有還是沒有無人機的消耗量非常大嘛"},{"start":24710.774,"end":24715.719,"text":"因為他們認為小型的FPP對他們來說是更有效的"},{"start":24727.549,"end":24741.448,"text":"你如果沒有去把烏克蘭跟俄羅斯他們的戰場現在在實戰的情況了解那我們怎麼會知道對我們的作戰需求去尋找尋求這一系列的無人機是否合適呢我的問題是這個委員我們冷靜下來冷靜下來我再跟委員報告一下"},{"start":24745.273,"end":24773.428,"text":"Altis這種無人機它有一個特色它就是它一個模組化的無人機的硬體之後它又不斷的軟體的改造會增加它的功性能這一個烏克蘭的戰場的一個驗證反饋他們不斷的重新調整這個產品的性能確實是在烏克蘭跟美國政府的測試當中實在是你不要再問我說測試了我要問說2024年以後還有沒有再使用合到相當好的一個程度你是知道還是不知道啊"},{"start":24774.288,"end":24799.687,"text":"就是2024年以後烏克蘭的戰場上還有沒有在使用這家公司所生產的無人機你是知道還是不知道你誠實回答我我現在取得的資料是說英國有提供了一套給他這一套到底有沒有使用完畢消耗完畢而仍然繼續有後續的供應這個我並不清楚那我就告訴你說沒有了嘛不會看新聞喔接下來還有很多題目啦"},{"start":24801.048,"end":24815.506,"text":"5月16號川普在受訪的時候提到對台軍售是對大陸很好的談判籌碼這個要問我們的院長我們的軍售被川普總統說成是對大陸的籌碼請問行政院的立場跟看法是什麼"},{"start":24817.105,"end":24837.876,"text":"跟委員報告啊 台灣是全球核心利益的所在所以我們不會成為一個被犧牲或交易的那他怎麼說啊 你去跟川普說啊 你要大聲的告訴美國說我們不應該川普總統在北京 在飛機 以及面對媒體的詢問之外我們更要注意到美國廣泛的國會領袖長時間在北美關係的關係"},{"start":24843.791,"end":24870.059,"text":"院長你的意見會比賴總統的意見來得權威嗎我的意見我的意見跟總統都會是一致的那可是他們脾氣啊那川普總統講說他要把台灣的軍售當成籌碼這是事實啊所以你先不要跟他講其他的我們先就美國總統的President of the United States美國總統說要把軍售當成籌碼這件事情好歹行政院要表態吧"},{"start":24871.339,"end":24883.504,"text":"所以我們說台灣是全球核心利益之所在我們不會被這麼容易被犧牲或獎勵是不會被 是不能被 也不會對 你看你只敢講不會你不敢講不能也不應該嘛你就應該要告訴川普說你不應該把台灣對跟美國之間的軍事當成籌碼 是吧"},{"start":24889.486,"end":24897.409,"text":"我對國家的信心就在這裡而且美方國會領袖幫他的國務卿 談判代表 美方的國會議長還有他的擁委會的主席在這幾天講過非常多話我們可以拿出來所以我問你川普總統他會決定要不要簽署140億第二批的遵守案 對吧"},{"start":24915.896,"end":24943.546,"text":"就算是國會簽過了國會簽過了我們他也發了一些文件給我們的國防部的這我都知道整個軍售的流程是如此但是如果川普沒有簽署的話那後續是不是就沒有這一筆140億美金的軍售案這方面我們現在聽到的狀況包括夏恩等十位議員在5月16號也希望美國政府他希望我們也希望但我們用的是在川習後之後"},{"start":24944.546,"end":24964.572,"text":"他講到了要不要簽他再考慮所以我的意思是說如果今天六項保證被川普現在講成那是很久以前的事情了已經沒有六項保證了已經被破壞了儘管底下的幕僚還有參眾議員都很努力幫忙台灣我都知道但是川普他作為總統"},{"start":24966.072,"end":24967.213,"text":"美國港拉議員也說過希望美國能夠堅守"},{"start":24982.065,"end":25004.257,"text":"他希望能夠堅守 但是我們不能夠實...所以目前沒有發生川普總統有任何對台灣政策的變化有啊 很多變化啊 他過去有六項保證他現在跟你說他不是Santa Claus啊他告訴你說他不需要台灣海峽他不會為了一個6500英里以外的地方看到任何的戰爭"},{"start":25005.918,"end":25008.039,"text":"我們現在不需要把帽子往身上一直戴"},{"start":25022.726,"end":25051.348,"text":"我是跟你講實話我們看一下川普說什麼的圖片好不好1982是很久以前了但是很久的事情喔我跟他在這個川習會上一直在談軍售的問題喔談得很詳細我會做出決定這就是六項保證的鬆動啊沒有扣人和帽子下一張我們再看一下他們說的我還沒有批准他我們再看看後續發展我可能會也可能不會我要問的是他可能會或可能不會你們掌握了他會還不會"},{"start":25052.689,"end":25074.454,"text":"我們努力確保台灣目前這種現狀的改變你也不知道啊我不知道所以我才問你啊我知道我問你幹嘛啊我知道的話我問你幹嘛我就是不知道你是行政院長你才會知道啊所以我可以說I have to speak to the person but right nowyou know who he ishe is wrong in Taiwan"},{"start":25075.194,"end":25096.785,"text":"他會是誰?會是誰?我們有掌握到美國各方的訊息那川普方面的訊息嗎?因為川普想要跟每一個台灣的人說話那請問一下這個人是誰?是賴清德總統嗎?就是在台灣決定台灣重要事情的所以是賴清德總統嗎?"},{"start":25098.959,"end":25127.395,"text":"川普總統的認知那個人就是能夠再讓利台灣的人所以你也不知道他是誰嗎那如果你們兩邊的通話呢因為到現在川普還在罵我們是晶片小偷所以我問一個很重要的問題如果141個軍隊他們要求要交換晶片產業的先進之稱我們會同意嗎台灣的製造能力跟領先地位跟全球的產量不會停下來等其他不是我們會同意嗎你根本沒有回答我的問題啊不是同不同意我們沒有能力留下來所以你不一定同意不一定不同意"},{"start":25130.745,"end":25136.47,"text":"OK謝謝徐委員謝謝卓院長報告院會"},{"start":25138.257,"end":25165.982,"text":"本日排定質詢的委員均與質詢完畢謝謝左院長及相關部會首長列席答詢做以下之決定將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就位答覆部分予以書面答覆二 已提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者予立補刊登報告委員會"},{"start":25167.659,"end":25188.41,"text":"因保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例規定經本院同意後行政院始得籌編第一批發價數預算案所以現在請各黨團幹部至議場後面主席辦公室進行溝通後續事宜"},{"start":25189.17,"end":25199.444,"text":"另外請卓院長及相關部會首長返回市本院就上開事項處理後再行通知後續相關事宜現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}