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徐欣穎"},{"start":1316.996,"end":1331.322,"text":"楊瓊英及陳昭明所提書面質詢列入記錄看通公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員立委要求極限者從即鎖定決議詢答結束令定期進行審查散會宣布完畢"},{"start":1340.663,"end":1363.555,"text":"現在我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣電力股份衛生公司台灣糖業股份衛生公司宣傳筆好那我現在稍微介紹一下今天大廠的一個部會首長首先我們這個經濟部部長龔明星工部長"},{"start":1366.533,"end":1383.63,"text":"台電公司董事長曾文森台電公司總經理郭天和在台灣糖業股份有限公司董事長吳明昌行政院主計總處基金預算處科長王佩珊"},{"start":1392.038,"end":1408.804,"text":"本日議程排定審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣電力股份有限公司台灣糖業股份有限公司首先我們請經濟部公民先部長報告"},{"start":1418.781,"end":1438.766,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那大院今天審查本部所屬的台電公司跟台南公司115年度的預算那本人就該兩公司115年的預算重點提出報告敬請各位委員不吝指教那首先是在台電公司的部分"},{"start":1440.066,"end":1467.8,"text":"那台電公司主要重要的業務包括以下幾項第一項是穩定供電的前提下我們也積極推動淨零轉型的工程那這個部分我們可以從三個部分供給面還有電網的部分需求面三個面向來跟各位做一些說明首先在供給面部分呢我們會進行多元能源的開發跟準備那持續的新增"},{"start":1468.76,"end":1493.453,"text":"燃氣的機組115年到123年的時候呢燃氣機組預計會淨增加大概1820萬千瓦其中興達跟台中各有兩部機組今年就會並聯上線那有關於自有的再生能源的部分呢綠能預期在116年度就可以來完工"},{"start":1494.69,"end":1512.532,"text":"另外有關於推動河南安檢的部分今年度3月27號已經提交了河山的再運轉計畫到河岸位去做審查第二部分有關於電網面的部分台電公司會持續的強化電網的韌性跟提升電網的體質"},{"start":1515.573,"end":1531.392,"text":"其中有關於輸電的部分,針對產業園區跟綠能分散供電也會進行的改善工程在配電的部分,會持續進行配電系統五年的升級計畫預計116年度會完成相關的改善作業"},{"start":1536.192,"end":1548.483,"text":"第三部分有關於在需求面的部分台電公司會精進需求面來管理與落實深度節能的部分持續的精進需求面的管理的措施那"},{"start":1549.709,"end":1564.261,"text":"計畫在116年度的目標設定是要達成節電206億度另外因應再生能源的發展也會調整有關於離峰跟尖峰的時間電價的一些相關設計"},{"start":1567.761,"end":1586.732,"text":"田田公司的第二項重大的業務是要確保財務穩健,使得持續推動各項重大的電力設備為了穩定物價跟照顧民生,田田公司主動吸收了大部分民生用電的漲幅"},{"start":1587.452,"end":1607.615,"text":"那截至今年的3月底還有累計虧損大概3571億元左右那為了確保財務的穩健呢經濟部也會責成台南公司積極的開展各項的開源結合相關措施那這樣的挑戰當然我們也會適時的向行政院來做反應"},{"start":1609.127,"end":1636.38,"text":"那第二項是有關於營業收支跟盈虧的狀況115年度的預算邊列收入大概1兆23億多元支出大概是1兆303億左右那本期的淨損規劃是208億左右主要是因為115年度預估的電價沒有足而反映成本所產生的"},{"start":1637.421,"end":1663.568,"text":"那第三是有關於投資計畫跟資金來源的部分115年度編列的構建固定資產投資大概是2611億左右那其中專案的計畫編列了1369億左右那資金來源除了這個667億左右是有自有資金之外其他大概1944億是舉借"},{"start":1667.659,"end":1692.65,"text":"那第二部分是有關於台糖公司的部分那台糖公司的部分呢重要的業務措施呢有以下第一項是有關於穩定民生物價的部分那台糖公司呢除了持續的動廠砂糖還有沙拉油的銷售之外呢也配合了農業部防範非洲豬瘟還有其他的這個防禦措施來減輕民眾的這個負擔"},{"start":1695.851,"end":1714.583,"text":"那第二大項是有關於擴大綠能的供應那台台公司也會持續的配合政策上的盤點建置太陽能光電實施的這個潛力的長子另外為了滿足國內中小企業的綠電需求規劃保留的部分暗場來支持"},{"start":1716.144,"end":1734.511,"text":"第三部分是提供產業公共政策的用地為了因應產業發展所需還有配合國家政策台南公司提供了產業園區、科學園區、社會住宅、長照機構還有其他的公共建設所需要的土地"},{"start":1736.028,"end":1751.523,"text":"第四大項是持續的提升核心事業的競爭力滾動式的調整經營策略擬定各項事業的發展目標跟策略力行目標管理並迅速完成專案計畫提升核心事業的競爭力"},{"start":1753.665,"end":1775.915,"text":"第二個部分是有關於營業收支跟盈虧的部分115年度的預算編列是367億左右支出是308億左右本期有淨利59億左右較114年度的淨利56億有增加2億多主要的原因是因為投資性不動產淨利增加所示"},{"start":1776.875,"end":1795.808,"text":"那第三個是有關於投資計畫跟資金來源那115年度徵購的這個固定資產設備的部分大概是10億元左右那其中專案計畫大概2億多那資金來源呢大概全部是自有資金來支應所以就不用借款"},{"start":1796.943,"end":1818.623,"text":"那有關於台電跟台糖公司115年度的計劃跟預算的詳細狀況等一下會由各該公司的負責人來進行報告以上報告敬祝各位身體健康 主持順利 謝謝好 謝謝工部長接下來我請這個台灣電力公司董事長曾文森報告時間6分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":1822.258,"end":1839.892,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安今天很榮幸能夠來這邊報告台電公司115年度的預算那以下僅就六個面向來跟各位說明台電公司的經營快況首先在確保穩定供電強化電網韌性的方面台電公司會持續強化推動維護"},{"start":1842.013,"end":1863.253,"text":"維護跟風險管理,除了每日的掌握基礎運轉狀況以外也會滾動檢討靈活調整稅休時的時程,配合負載的變化另外透過事故案例弱點分析跟跨場的經驗交流精進預防性的一些維護工作加強監控系統以提前預警異常確保供電端的穩定及可靠性"},{"start":1863.934,"end":1877.803,"text":"那同時我們也會透過電力交易平台擴大電力的供給促進能源多元化將分散的民間電力資源納入市場的整合調度共同強化電力系統的穩定那在強化電網韌性的方面台電現在正在進行強化電網韌性的建設計畫那優先針對產業園區等關鍵區域跟民生相關工程進行改善"},{"start":1886.809,"end":1913.063,"text":"確保重要基礎設施的供電穩定同時推動二次變電所跟配電線路設備的預防維護檢測跟汰換我們也會建置比較先進的配電管理系統等措施全面提升配電系統的可靠度並進一步強化電能管理系統以提升區域調度中心自動化跟智慧化監控透過各個層面的全面改善打造穩固的電網"},{"start":1914.904,"end":1929.535,"text":"那在第二個部分是有關於提升用戶服務跟經濟需求管理那台電運用智慧電表來分析用電的數據那為不同類型的用戶量身提供服務透過建置高壓用戶服務入口網站"},{"start":1930.075,"end":1957.316,"text":"還有台灣電力APP以及電子商單系統服務等資訊服務提高高低壓用戶精準掌握用電的狀況並配合數位轉型跟AI的應用發展我們也打造了我們的智能AI客服那在可以24小時即時提供電費繳納的一些相當狀況停負電查詢反詐騙宣導等等資訊那解答用戶的用電大小是使電力服務更智慧化及時化"},{"start":1958.197,"end":1977.717,"text":"那經濟需求管理的部分呢我們會持續推動虛量反映易低尖峰那同時也響應那個深度節能的政策台電公司以公營事業跟大型醫療院所來帶頭落實那同時台電公司本身也選定了六個示範場域陸續推動節能改善的工作"},{"start":1978.479,"end":2006.775,"text":"那第三個部分是精進調適而作為邁向淨零的目標那台電公司為了要有效的因應極端氣候災害風險天災來臨前我們會依照氣象署預報來評估整個轄區的潛在風險也會提前擬定因應的計畫加強改善蘇便電設備的弱點例如防煙跟邊坡的維護那同時也會推動防災任性線路的遷改跟架空線的加固措施"},{"start":2007.535,"end":2032.894,"text":"那为避免雷害引起的变电所灾害所以我们也检讨了苏电线路的全设计同时纳入雷害防治的管理计划努力提升电网抗灾的能力建立灾害预警的机制跟应变机制那配合进行转型的部分台电公司在供给面电网面跟需求面三个方面整体的规划那除了持续扩大部件成熟的绿能"},{"start":2033.454,"end":2056.902,"text":"也建構了地熱的合作平台我們會跟民間自有暗場能夠大幅度的合作那也透過燃氣的橋接規劃新建低碳高效率的燃氣基礎來代替燃煤那此外台電公司也規劃提早佈局投入新的一些淨零能源包含氫能、氨能、混燒、捕捉"},{"start":2057.402,"end":2076.466,"text":"等前瞻技術的研發跟示範建立多元穩定的低碳電力結構以達成淨零碳排的目標同時我們也在進行就是去年修法之後現在我們的核能電廠也在進行相關的安檢工作第四個部分導入數位科技擴大數位應用依據數位"},{"start":2079.347,"end":2098.275,"text":"發展的策略藍圖台電公司持續強化數位羈盤跟推動數位應用在基礎建設方面已經建置了雲端資料的中心那也部署低端的AI運算資源來支援數據跟AI發展的需求同時我們也推動我們自己的資料治理跟強化治安的防護"},{"start":2099.055,"end":2114.602,"text":"打造可靠的數位機盤在應用上面台電會持續導入新的一些數位技術AI技術來在我們的核心應用方面來優化各種用戶的體驗服務以及增加我們的運營效能第五個部分"},{"start":2115.382,"end":2128.125,"text":"在提升經營績效的部分我們會力求財務的穩健因為台電公司是國營事業我們肩負穩定供電跟照顧民生的政策使命我們除了持續開發電源以外我們也會積極的開源節流讓台電的財務更加穩定同時也能夠達到穩定物價的目標"},{"start":2138.007,"end":2153.062,"text":"那第六個部分是完善永續治理優化人力的價值那台南公司這幾年其實經過大幅度的人力的更替我們現在的平均年齡大概只有42歲那這一個部分人力未來的積極的延攬"},{"start":2155.384,"end":2170.934,"text":"關鍵的電業人才聚焦各項專業訓練培養應變能力因應快速的變化環境那是我們接下來要緊迫推動的一些工作那我們也希望我們這些有關於人才養成的一些工作除了台電公司本身以外"},{"start":2171.514,"end":2193.692,"text":"用戶端的一些電器人員也能夠跟台電有更多的一些經驗交流互動達成我們整個電網穩定的目標以上是台電公司115年度重要經營管理概況敬請各位委員支持指教 謝謝好 謝謝曾董事長接下來我們有請台灣電力股份公司總經理郭天和報告時間4分鐘"},{"start":2201.196,"end":2223.243,"text":"主席 各位委員 今天新房大院審查台電115年度營業預算天河北列席報告自感榮幸僅將台電公司114年度預算執行情形及115年度營業預算內容檢要的報告如後 敬請指教與支持"},{"start":2224.824,"end":2236.452,"text":"第一項114年年度預算執行情形產銷的情形跟收支盈虧的情形首先產銷的情形供電量114年度供電量為2537億度"},{"start":2242.036,"end":2245.238,"text":"達全年預算2,607億度之97%受電量114年度受電量為2,390億度達全年預算2,450億度之98%"},{"start":2260.216,"end":2274.405,"text":"第二收支盈虧的狀態114年度受惠國際燃料價格趨緩及業外進收增加台電公司轉虧為盈稅前盡力739億彌補以前累積虧損後到114年底能有虧損3529億待彌補"},{"start":2285.919,"end":2292.645,"text":"接下來是115年度預算編列狀情形主要產銷的營運目標分為兩種計劃銷售數量115年計劃銷售量為2461度較114年度以下減成上年度"},{"start":2307.399,"end":2315.642,"text":"預算受電量2450億度增加10億度系考量預估經濟狀況配合用電需求估編計劃生產數量115年度計劃供電量為2688億度較上年度預算供電量2607億度增加81億度系配合受電量需求的一個估編"},{"start":2336.169,"end":2342.053,"text":"那營業收支及營餘之估計115年度的預算總收入為1兆24億總支出為1兆304億收支相抵後預算稅前虧損280億元較上年度虧損704億元"},{"start":2359.903,"end":2372.332,"text":"虧損減少424億元主要預估平均售電單價增加電費收入增加以及燃料購電支出增加增減戶底所致"},{"start":2373.479,"end":2384.025,"text":"台電公司為配合經濟發展政府政策及用電需求持續開發電源及進行電網投資115年度固定資產投資共投資2611億元包括專案計畫1369億元一般建築及設備計畫1242億元115年度台電公司擬舉"},{"start":2401.932,"end":2412.066,"text":"支長期借款2166億元市支應固定資產建設改良擴充及借款還本之用另預計還本1374億元"},{"start":2417.909,"end":2438.807,"text":"結與台電公司身為國營企業捐護穩定供電及照顧民生政策使命持續開發電源精進電網韌性及靈活調度加強需求面的管理以因應逐年成長的電力需求之外同時兼顧能源轉型及淨零排放的永續目標"},{"start":2440.648,"end":2460.714,"text":"將從供給面、電網面及需求面推動淨零排放達到穩定供電跟永續之間的平衡台電公司業務承蒙各委員鼎力支持,得以順利推展藉此機會深緻謝誠,今後仍請多示教與支持,使電力經營不斷精進"},{"start":2463.952,"end":2479.528,"text":"穩定經濟增進全民福祉貢獻權利以上報告敬請各位委員支持與指教好謝謝郭總經理那接下來請台灣唐業股份委員公司董事長吳明昌報告6分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2486.316,"end":2508.424,"text":"主席 部長 各位委員 各位先進 大家早安當然今天審查台南公司115年度的營業預算本人有機會就公司114年度經營狀況向貴委員提出報告 自感榮幸那台南公司所經營的4月金屬完全競爭的市場"},{"start":2510.609,"end":2535.359,"text":"再進入配合政府政策穩定國內民生物價方面各市位的經營備受挑戰但是為了因應環境的變化台南公司持續精進各市位發展的目標以策略落實績效跟品質管理以提升整體競爭力跟市位營運的績效那近幾年來台南公司經營持續的獲利"},{"start":2538.857,"end":2567.515,"text":"就114年度經營概望跟各位說第一個就配合政府政策穩定物價包括砂油3公升的從99年12月31號到現在都沒有調漲價格那1公斤的小包裝的砂糖從106年到現在每公斤36塊當然糖還有其他的也都沒有漲價所以我們建屋的那個"},{"start":2568.627,"end":2592.243,"text":"穩定物價的功能每人好幾億的虧損就用在穩定物價第二個配合農業部的養豬政策包括非洲豬瘟我們調整豬的供出以及不出去拍賣那另外一個我們也有台南密林便利超商"},{"start":2593.133,"end":2622.134,"text":"設置那個平價專區第二個配合國家重大建設提供土地因應台商回流及配合政府政策發展近10年來提供24處的大概2000公頃的土地設置產業延期跟科學延期那從105年到7年提供6處土地大概4.5公頃左右從衛福部設置"},{"start":2624.316,"end":2639.989,"text":"長道機構以及施棄出的土地超19公頃提供內政部跟地方政府興建社會住宅還有我們把ENIO的協定轉為社會住宅合計可貢獻26897間的住宿第三個重點是建設太陽光電協助綠電的發展"},{"start":2649.596,"end":2678.232,"text":"那個到114連完成了554MW以後建置注射保險接種完成以後達到另外一個就是注射波紐1.66MW第四個是強化研究的發展比方說那個細節疫病的監控精準營養的調控還有續用防疫產品的開發那跟著多元化的利用"},{"start":2679.076,"end":2703.715,"text":"那就是說這張畫面本來是廢棄物現在是副產物的利用我們開發成除錯稀油跟寵物用品受到很大的肯定另外一個稀木廢水跟自產廢水共處理的方式作為義肥減少化為食用跟增加水資源的再利用那另外還有發展土壤護灘的技術跟農田管理的模式"},{"start":2705.156,"end":2732.518,"text":"第五個是推動淨零的排放此以執行製程改善跟設備更新設備以降低溫室氣體的排放量達到自主減量計畫的目標另外也基於推動的自然灘的發展在森林灘方面那著手相當多跟公司部員的合作那在湖北塘場跟山大塘場都已經通過"},{"start":2733.59,"end":2751.403,"text":"國家能源再生憑證中心的審查取得再生能源的憑證那每人大概可以有8500張的再生能源憑證那我們在加油站方面也設立了太陽能關鍵系統電動機車電池的換電站還有自動"},{"start":2757.932,"end":2781.583,"text":"那個充電窗而且已經開始營運了另外我們對於文化資產的呼喚也相當的積極台南公司致力辦理唐業文化資產修復跟再利用並以在地的聯路歷史跟空間的那個鏈接重新喚醒就台南新動能及歷史的價值還有跟國家圖書館簽訂了"},{"start":2784.861,"end":2806.113,"text":"文獻資料數位化合作的那個協議書 另外一個包括其他的重要項目 比方說去年花蓮馬灘的事件 我們花蓮馬灘發揮很大的功效 包括救災指揮中心救急站 機器"},{"start":2808.157,"end":2834.754,"text":"物資跟清儲方面連員住宿還有免費加油等等之類的當然後來行政院給我們就是說一些那個補貼補償那另外一個土地的利用給他們在馬來西亞方面受到影響的我們的做一些support那另外一個非常有名的日本蘋果糖的業者"},{"start":2838.72,"end":2866.77,"text":"他試了全世界100多個糖,結果認為台糖的糖是他所需要的因為他風味相當好,另外我們一些那個PD的那個研華配合SDG的發展還有甘蔗做濃郁藍芒酒都有非常好的績效齁那這個是跟各位先進報告台糖在"},{"start":2868.027,"end":2885.72,"text":"一樣做得經營的方式 謝謝各位好 謝謝吳董事長現在出席人數達這個三人請問各位同仁上次會議是有無錯誤沒有那議事錄確定"},{"start":2889.414,"end":2912.703,"text":"有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員執行權原律做以下宣告第一每位委員的發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘第二上午12點零分截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的邱毅穎委員發言"},{"start":2922.544,"end":2925.548,"text":"謝謝主席 我請一下台電董事長請台電董事長"},{"start":2932.57,"end":2961.729,"text":"董事長早董事長早董事長我想最近你們有一個事件很紅這個台電的Logo的設計的問題那其實我覺得台電是一個公務機關你們推動這些美學進步這個Logo其實已經很多年了那把它稍微做一些優化透過主改的這個時間去做優化其實我認為這是合理的也是正常的"},{"start":2962.249,"end":2990.239,"text":"可是我不知道台電你們在怕什麼為什麼怕被大家知道然後在網路上引起廣泛的討論台電才開始出來說明啊董事長我給你一分鐘的時間你把這個過程簡單說明一下好不好好跟委員報告我想首先要說明一件事就是說這個LOGO的調整的時間是在2023年的第十幾月九月份那成案的時候其實我那時候還是代理董事長"},{"start":2991.257,"end":3014.395,"text":"那我簡單來講這個基本上是經濟部所有的攤位因為經濟部改組我們改組的拖了非常的久最後終於通過然後我們也開始進行了一些整個包括有些單位更名那也做一些識別系統的一些優化的一些工作所以它其實在2023年9月就成案的一個事情那成案的當時事實上"},{"start":3015.316,"end":3034.987,"text":"我們的當時的總經理王耀廷其實在上面也批示了就是他認為說主要是我們這些LOGO的調整不需要浪費不需要多花費工廠可以先從軟性跟印刷品啟動意思就是說這些本來就要做的事在LOGO上面可能可以做一些調整"},{"start":3036.428,"end":3043.472,"text":"那一直到2024年我們才知道已經發報完成了那有新的作品出來我們才開始參與討論到2024年的時候簡單報告一下我覺得這裡面真的也有一些世代的差異我們這裡總經理當事長還有副總的"},{"start":3054.398,"end":3072.641,"text":"連這個老牌都領了不需要蓋啦都走啦 我們不說了你們都走讓我委員買啦但是你們不知道現在時代在進步其實台電的那個這樣那個已經跟時代已經完全不符合了我們是比較保守一點的 董事長我簡單講啦就是說對於這件事情"},{"start":3073.522,"end":3091.673,"text":"我不會苛責你們但我覺得台電你去優化不管是你的服務你的Logo提倡美學其實你最應該要優化的是你的電網的韌性當然這個事情你們持續在做所以我覺得這一件事情老實講你們根本不用害怕"},{"start":3092.673,"end":3113.768,"text":"甚至我聽到今天說什麼中油因為這樣子所以中油的LOGO優化要暫緩我都覺得你們行得正坐得直其實都不要怕人家這個指責這個罵你們就停下來那個罵你們也停下來那你們到底怎麼做事情啊好來講到電網優化其實這個事情我認為就這樣過去我也不想不會跟你花太多時間在這個討論上面"},{"start":3116.345,"end":3131.836,"text":"董事長我要跟你強調過去我們曾經討論過微電網的韌性這件事情你應該還記得吧那我也希望台電能夠給我一些你們在做微電網韌性這件事情上面的進度這個呢是"},{"start":3133.177,"end":3154.712,"text":"我查到了這個資料你們台電的鳳山宿舍在108年開始你們就有一個所謂的規劃展示屋以低碳節能為主軸你們去把你們的宿舍做這樣的改進那當時其實我記得是去年本席在這邊也跟您談到我們在山上偏遠的部落偏遠的山上是不是也能夠來創造這樣的一個微電網"},{"start":3157.494,"end":3175.661,"text":"創造這樣的一個所謂的低碳節能除電設備系統讓山上部落遇到颱風刮風下雨電線斷裂的時候其實他不會有受到停電的危險我不知道在這件事情上面台電的進度是如何我一直在回想您曾經在這裡回答說你住的宿舍啊"},{"start":3176.041,"end":3202.397,"text":"你不敢開冷氣因為冷氣太老舊所以你還是吹電扇請問一下你到現在還是吹電扇嗎你們台電的冷氣設備你們的相關節能設備有沒有做精進那個我跟委員報告一下這個要說一下就因為台電的宿舍都有一些歷史董事長宿舍有一些歷史所以它其實是密封性沒有那麼好啦但是冷氣台電一定是會把冷氣都換變平這個都是會換比較高效"},{"start":3204.778,"end":3232.786,"text":"我只是覺得說董事長的用電一定會被注意所以我那時候就覺得說我如果溫度OK的話就是開我就開電網站就可以但是還是會有開冷氣不是因為冷氣太老舊不是不是不是而是因為你要節電對它那個都是變頻的你提倡節電這是一個好事情好那你告訴我你的所謂的韌性電網這件事情的進度到哪裡我跟委員報告就是韌性電網它其實是做高壓特高壓高壓跟一般的都在做同時在進行"},{"start":3233.826,"end":3255.279,"text":"那簡單來講就是特高壓的就是工產業園區還有一些我們節點瓶頸要打開的現在這個進度上面都有On ScheduleOn Schedule是大概現在的普及率或者是進度到什麼樣的程度我們依照我們的計畫來講我們改的那些重要的高壓的部分還有它那個就是"},{"start":3256.319,"end":3278.387,"text":"透過電液 保護電液來讓它分散的這些工作 大致上已經做了一個段落現在都要新增電網 新增電網的事情都在做那這個部分有兩個事 第一個事是我們這兩年都拿到因為丹拉斯颱風而取得的特別預算我們再加速做一些必要地區的地下化工程"},{"start":3279.207,"end":3293.007,"text":"我關心的這個部分你們可不可以給我一個比較完整的報告沒問題就是有哪幾個地方尤其是偏遠地區的孤島電網我們會來做韌性電網其實還有另外一個是我也一直提到的電感地下化這個我要請台電董事長一併上來"},{"start":3294.887,"end":3316.037,"text":"台棠台棠對不起台棠吳董事長來這兩位董事長你們看一下這個是在高速公路國道10號下來手巾寮這一段國時的尾端過去呢台棠在這裡種樹成林左邊是他以前的照片右邊呢是他現在的照片"},{"start":3316.957,"end":3344.207,"text":"台糖呢要砍這些樹的時候發了一個很小的公告就貼在樹旁邊他說因為颱風來呢會打斷會把造成電線勾斷造成停電所以他要抒發第一排的樹木結果變成這樣部長你也請看一下笨拙這樣啦不是第一排的樹木啊那些樹全部被砍光光截切之後台糖拿去賣錢"},{"start":3345.916,"end":3364.813,"text":"好那這件事情被我發現之後呢當然台糖董事長被我臭罵了一頓臭罵了一頓之後台糖做什麼事我要求把樹種回來第二個我要求台糖跟台電現在要去立刻研議這一段路段的電感地下化電纜地下化的問題"},{"start":3367.363,"end":3386.632,"text":"後來台電告訴我你們有在規劃我現在要講的就是說我能不能請台電加快速度去把這一段的電線地下化去把它做好第二個台糖因為我的要求要把樹種回來所以台糖本來下個月又要再把樹種上去了"},{"start":3387.592,"end":3406.719,"text":"我說你們台塘是不是腦子有一點問題如果電線要地下化你是不是應該讓電線地下化的工程趕快進行完之後你才把樹種上去結果你們因為立法委要求你把樹種上去所以你們不分青紅皂白也不管三七二十一現在又要再把樹種上去那如果到時候台電要做工程的話你樹要再砍一次"},{"start":3408.855,"end":3436.274,"text":"這我就覺得你們這個公務單位兩個單位都沒有在做溝通協調這個曾董事長這一段的電線地下化能不能立刻去進行加速去進行包委員我們會跟我們一定會跟台檔合作就是說儘快的我們先加速進行讓這邊的職債能夠恢復我想說那個我會請我們的同仁先處理這一塊好謝謝好來那個台電曾董事長請回好那個吳董事長我接下來要跟您請教第二個問題"},{"start":3437.234,"end":3458.071,"text":"剛剛那個之前我已經跟你討論過了綠樹成林 你好不容易種了30年的樹 種得這麼漂亮然後被你們一夕之間砍光光我現在要跟你談到 您接受訪問的時候呢說你們台塘現在賺錢了 你來了一年以後台塘開始賺錢那我不知道你的賺錢 你賺的錢是賺什麼樣的錢你剛剛的報告裡面你的本業還是虧損"},{"start":3463.495,"end":3491.494,"text":"所以你賺的錢是什麼 是你的土地出租出去 做開發 開發做科學園區用土地的租金收入來賺錢嘛 對不對那你有很多的休閒園區嘛 對不對好 你的休閒園區 我現在跟你談一個橋頭的休閒園區董事長 這個是我們九阿島的小烤肉區啦我不知道你們這是活在什麼時代的人啊烤肉區上面呢 蓋了一 種了一大堆這種洋傘"},{"start":3493.351,"end":3510.402,"text":"陽傘很低然後你在下面烤肉那個煙根本擴散不出去密密麻麻的陽傘在下面烤肉的人叫做慢性中毒因為所有的煙全部被他的肺吸進去了旁邊也沒有水源那烤肉架全部生鏽"},{"start":3512.366,"end":3524.111,"text":"那你們台塘也不管 廁所也老舊臭得要死 台塘也不管反正你照樣收錢 你照樣出租出去還是會有人來租 還是會有人來用剛才你覺得去過嗎 我不去你不去嗎 你覺得去那裡購物過嗎 我不去那裡購物過你不去那裡購物過 你覺得那裡有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":3535.694,"end":3552.242,"text":"因為沒有那個地方啦這樣你來做一年 你也很多地方還沒蓋嘛我跟委員報告我可能是所有當事人裡面 蓋過很多地方所有的那個你蓋過很多地方 我親自給你點一個腳踏 你就不蓋過了腳踏我沒有蓋過 我那兩三倍我現在要說的就是說你不要跟我說你們台湯現在多賺錢 多賺錢你既有的設備"},{"start":3559.065,"end":3575.284,"text":"你的休閒園區 你若要推薦休閒園區 麻煩你跟著時代進步一點低碳節能 你的報告也在寫但是你們自己的烤肉區 一點都不低碳 一點都不節能還製造環境污染 還讓去參加烤肉的人慢性中毒"},{"start":3577.764,"end":3587.089,"text":"這種設備齁 已經不是先進國家啦啊你做一個國營事業 應該要出頭嘛設備要改善就要改善嘛 要開錢就要開錢嘛好不好 這有辦法去改善嗎我委員報告齁 賺錢其實幾個人都賺錢啊這不就是幾年 賺這麼多這樣啦齁 這不是說我來這裡賺錢喔"},{"start":3597.754,"end":3607.621,"text":"以前就有在賺錢了好那對於那個要不也不用解釋太多了你就去會堪滿足需求好不好OK好謝謝好謝謝邱議員委員好謝謝接下來我們有請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":3625.612,"end":3647.204,"text":"謝謝趙偉 我們是不是請台電董事長請台電董事長 曾董事長董事長 基本上我要延伸就是說韌性電纜它的重要性所以單納市之後說真的我們的特別預算也"},{"start":3647.824,"end":3647.964,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":3678.685,"end":3689.218,"text":"我們如何讓台南人有信心說如果再一次丹納斯我們台南會有什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":3691.761,"end":3719.381,"text":"來 董事長好 跟委員報告我們大家都不希望再有一次丹那斯但是天有不正風雲那我們其實台電一開始的規劃就是這樣其實我們針對台南當時在丹那斯颱風以後不管是樹木拉脫倒或是被風吹倒的電感其實我們都針對這些真的是相對比較脆弱的地方找一些工作的方法那有必要地下化的時間上也來得及的我們就會先做"},{"start":3720.422,"end":3734.194,"text":"但是特別預算就兩年其實台電會用自己的預算後續的需要補強的會繼續做那短期也有一些部分我想說我們陳副總在他前幾天有到您辦公室去短期之內我們要立一些比較強的電感"},{"start":3736.276,"end":3745.887,"text":"在中間做斷點不要讓他一段段一排這些工作我們也持續在做我想我們希望能夠再一次如果真人不信再一次遇到類似的風災我們台電電感導斷的不會這麼多那當然"},{"start":3751.273,"end":3775.969,"text":"這裡面也要跟委員報告一下就是說剛才提到露宿的一些問題就是說我們單純抗風我們一定會做到那如果有露宿的問題需要地下化那我們會來地下化那當然露宿植栽的選擇很重要如果它容易搗斷它就會拖倒電線桿那這個部分最近包括4月30號那個氣候變遷委員會也在討論這件事所以我們會全面一併來做改善好 來董事長謝謝"},{"start":3777.91,"end":3800.48,"text":"我拜託你們這整個規劃送一份針對丹納斯當時候的倒塌的一個改善狀況不論是我們該地下化的地下化該做一個所謂高價重要的一個連接點強化性的你把這些送一份到我辦公室來我們希望"},{"start":3801.3,"end":3823.822,"text":"我們的重點是不希望再有一個丹納斯可是如果有丹納斯來的時候我們也要萬全的準備我們可以應對 這才是對的所以再拜託董事長好 我們做一份之前導端的狀況跟未來我們想要怎麼做好 對 這個部分再拜託第二個部分就像剛剛董事長所說的"},{"start":3825.203,"end":3831.041,"text":"我们露宿的问题我们不能因为露宿倒塌而相对影响到"},{"start":3832.065,"end":3861.765,"text":"我們整個電線桿的一個運作狀況好這個就是我最近我們去看了山海峻濾道其實山海峻濾道我已經爭取了好多年我們從軍安路就是南側的部分軍安路幾乎都已經地下化了現在就是北側就是安通路的部分好那天我們去看完我們台電也做出了整個的規劃從我們的五段跟六段"},{"start":3862.425,"end":3878.672,"text":"大概是一億我們現在也希望因為在台南的量能真的是太大了也就是當然是這一次我們中央要去支付台南的整個周邊的電纜韌性"},{"start":3881.433,"end":3905.55,"text":"強度這個預算比較高所以我們也認為市政府也應該加入這個韌性的行列所以這個我要再次強調就是說我們為了要鼓勵所有的縣市要加入韌性我們是不是應該去思考我們的分攤比例"},{"start":3906.957,"end":3936.101,"text":"也就是過去是五成比五成如果有願意就是說有縣市願意加入的我們可以以六四否則說真的縣市的預算沒有那麼多我覺得這個是可以在鼓勵縣市的部分那越多地方的預算加入的話其實也減緩了我們台電的壓力是不是這個部分我們可以用這樣的考慮"},{"start":3936.926,"end":3952.985,"text":"我跟委員報告這個如果是補助的話就是一定是主計怎麼樣編這個錢嘛那我們知道現在財化法其實其實整個中央跟地方中間的現在所有的稅務其實有很大的調整"},{"start":3954.066,"end":3975.721,"text":"那您提這個問題我不能夠在這邊答覆您因為這不是我能夠決定的當然我說我們是不是可以朝這個方向因為大家可能沒有感受到說丹納斯我們所承受的這種壓力所以這筆錢是不能省的可是當我如果真的要去編列這個預算我也不能排擠到地方的預算"},{"start":3976.041,"end":3983.774,"text":"就跟委員報告就是說如果就是補助預算編了下來當然我們就照這個來執行這個應該是就是台電就是一定照著政策做"},{"start":3985.002,"end":4010.861,"text":"我覺得我們一起來努力啦 部長我沒有請你上來但是部長我覺得這個部分你們在討論整個電能任性怎麼加強縣市政府加入這是一個誘因啊要不然你說以前就是55了那你現在要縣市政府加入你的誘因在哪裡我覺得我們可以做這樣的調整否則以前你們可以去看"},{"start":4012.365,"end":4019.151,"text":"縣市政府在編這個配合 幾乎少之又少啦都是嘴巴開開 等你們中央"},{"start":4020.899,"end":4041.548,"text":"給任何的資源下來其實很少比例很少所以我覺得這個部分可以中央地方一起參與才能增加我們的韌性的一個強度跟速度謝謝委員提醒了我想狀況是這樣就是那個丹納斯的那個兩年的預算我們趕快來執行因為其實他增加了非常多的工量"},{"start":4042.748,"end":4065.358,"text":"我們做了以後整個狀況評估以後我覺得這個事情要檢討我想委員大概也可以來提出來一起做檢討那台電的狀況是這樣如果給我們足夠的支持我們能夠儘量做我們一定儘量做這個我有跟行政院院長報告我說因為可能大家都不在我們第一線那個丹娜絲真的讓我們嚇到了"},{"start":4066.601,"end":4076.066,"text":"我們真的嚇到了所以我們希望有更多的力量來協助讓我們台南市民可以安心那我們請台堂的董事長謝謝台電董事長"},{"start":4081.82,"end":4101.295,"text":"那個董事長兩個部分就是說我們現在你知道我一直在推這個唐鐵五分車唐鐵五分車現在有一個很重大的區塊就是我們的謝言台我也非常感謝終於有一點進度我們台唐願意"},{"start":4102.156,"end":4120.131,"text":"自籌經費來協助卸研台的主體改善方案謝謝這個比我們以前撞牆總有一點進度了以前就是撞牆我們推到文化部推到市政府推來推去還好"},{"start":4121.962,"end":4149.384,"text":"總與有一個進展所以謝謝我想這個部分我會請我們相關單位市政府還有台堂還有文化局文化部就謝顏台的一個價值還有我們國土署在謝顏台周邊的環境也有做了一筆核准1300萬所以我覺得我們要整體來探討怎麼做最好"},{"start":4149.904,"end":4174.341,"text":"好 謝謝好 這個部分我對的我還是要跟你額落啦我們是非常用心賣一個東西賺一塊錢你看我們花了兩千萬要賺多少賣多少東西才可以賺到兩千萬所以我知道所以但是呢我必須說當這個台塘這個塘田五分車這個串聯起來把我們所有的亮點都做起來的時候"},{"start":4175.282,"end":4195.433,"text":"我告訴你你們最優先會得到獲利的是哪裡你們的流銀你們流銀你們的飯店你們的飯店大家就想要去賺了你們就相對會有一個加成的效果然後另外一個部分就是說我們這個"},{"start":4198.354,"end":4216.363,"text":"唐鐵的親子共融區我們目前已經辦理市府已經都跟公展兩個月五月份正式公展兩個月了那這個部分如果公展完之後可能後續的後續的部分就要拜託"},{"start":4217.779,"end":4234.491,"text":"我們台堂積極跟我們師傅看怎麼去辦理招商我希望在這個區塊我一直強調的當我們這個新營糖廠親子科技共融區可以完成我告訴你我們的"},{"start":4235.728,"end":4250.919,"text":"台糖絕對會受益不是跟你說的像董事長說我們一口一口這樣做但是我們要開這麼多沒有 開家可以相對的加成你們周邊的設備這才是重點"},{"start":4252.34,"end":4274.997,"text":"謝謝所以我們一起加油啦齁這個部分再拜託時間幫我們盯住因為光從公展兩個月之後我們台糖還要同步洽市府研商辦理招商說明會這些相關的部分還要一段時間我希望是我們跟時間在賽跑我們歡迎積極的配合市政府來做相關的工作 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員 謝謝"},{"start":4281.564,"end":4300.314,"text":"好 接下來我們有請鄭振淺委員質詢謝主席我想先請一下那個台堂有請台堂吳董事長"},{"start":4306.289,"end":4329.508,"text":"今天因為我們是台電台糖的預算的部分糖的部分因為本來是屬於戰略物資本來是我們自給率本來是重要的事情可是我們看到我們國家糧食從1993年到現在的一個糧食自給率大幅的一個衰減大幅的一個衰減那對於糖的部分的時候我想問一下我們糖現在本身的自給率大概有多少"},{"start":4330.769,"end":4337.999,"text":"大概我們自己種的甘蔗嗎對大概只有5%只有5%而已嗎OK那我們看到這整個狀態就是說就是"},{"start":4341.578,"end":4364.719,"text":"糖的部分我們自覺大概只有5%,其他部分大概都是進口,那可能是進口原料或是進口成品,那都是佔的95%的部分。我跟委員報告,那個我們台糖是進口的那個sugar,我們是refine,所以品質是非常好的,那其他沒有其他廠商有進口,他們都這就精糖,但是"},{"start":4365.649,"end":4387.556,"text":"那個Quality就沒有辦法控制了那因為我看到一個那個我們的數字就是說台糖自產的糖就是一公噸大概要虧損大概將近一萬四千五百塊左右啦那我在想說以我們現在每年大概有就是自己大概四萬噸的糖來講的時候我們大概每年會虧損大概五點"},{"start":4389.416,"end":4417.223,"text":"8億、5、6億左右這樣的一個金額那以我們目前來看的時候喔115年度的時候我們連續幾年我們的整個執行數都是虧損的一個情況那今年編列的預算是1.46億那我們到年底的時候有可能可以打平嗎?這個部分跟委員報告 針對砂糖的部分跟委員報告但我們製糖的部分是虧損但是我們進口那個Crew的那個sugar refi的話因為品質很好算是那個"},{"start":4418.643,"end":4435.296,"text":"很受消費者的喜歡我們那邊還是可以賺錢的那今年其實我們去年應該是差不多balance的去年就整個overall的那個去年差不多是balance的狀態是不是今年希望能夠能夠當然這跟那個"},{"start":4439.798,"end":4459.868,"text":"因為我們看到114年度的一個狀態的時候其實他到8月底的執行數其實還是虧損將近2億的一個情況那正在這個部分我覺得沒關係因為砂糖是一個必需的狀態而且我們已經10年都動漲所以基本上維持民生必需的狀態那因為我想看到狀態是因為整個土開的部分其實現在那個台糖"},{"start":4460.688,"end":4483.897,"text":"獲利最主要的一個來源我想請教新竹市這邊的時候有沒有台湯的地那準備要如何開發有台湯這邊的地齁那準備要開發的時候是說要走都市更新但是後來那個廖大王就跟市政府議事他們的做法有點不一樣所以最後我們你先那個"},{"start":4485.785,"end":4496.195,"text":"這個部分請事後再到本辦公室這邊來做一個溝通我們來看怎麼樣跟地方政府做一個溝通能夠讓整個台塘的一個資產真的被活化起來那我接下來想請教一下經濟部長跟台電"},{"start":4515.064,"end":4534.052,"text":"首先因為那個前幾天的時候又發生一件公安的事件在那個公安訓練的時候結果發生一個我們台電的員工傷亡的一個狀態那我在想說我看到整個台電的一個勞工安全衛生的支出就是"},{"start":4536.734,"end":4557.993,"text":"112年度的時候大概是3.65億到115年的時候已經到6.78億可是我們看到了它的預算數跟決算數是不斷的提升可是在整個傷亡的事情當中的時候似乎並沒有真正的下降針對這部分的時候台電這邊有沒有一個簡單的說明"},{"start":4560.356,"end":4571.169,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是台電發生公安這個事情就是不管是我們自己的同仁或是包商那個台電都需要自己積極的做檢討"},{"start":4572.349,"end":4597.174,"text":"那你剛才提到預算的部分預算部分有很多就是他等於是說他這一世界行政管理的一些工作包括健檢等等都跟員工的OK那我們希望說台電其實整個供應整個全台的電力狀態我們希望就是員工也能夠得到很好的保障我們希望在整個台電的一個供應類的部分能夠真正的加強那我接下來想請教的一個部分是有關於"},{"start":4598.294,"end":4617.1,"text":"最近有一個在整個綠能界一個很大的事情就是深威準備要下市那深威其實他的子公司就是富威是我們台電的一個承包廠商彰化這邊的一個承包廠商那麼得到的一個金額高達628億"},{"start":4619.821,"end":4646.678,"text":"然後結果在不久前的時候因為後來發現那個社會公司的一個淨值出現負數負1.8億少少的錢相較於他們整個的工程其實是一個小小的錢然後準備要下市那影響到的一個投資人高達7萬多個投資人那我想請教一下這件事情因為當時這家公司是在響應政府一個"},{"start":4647.678,"end":4670.51,"text":"綠能國家隊的時候他是第一個就是全包的統包的一個整個綠能國家隊的一個甄選出來的廠商當時就是曾董事長你當時也是我們的次長所以當時你找到了這家廠商的時候呢是你在次長兼代理董事長的時候那你現在是台電的董事長然後發現你當時找進來的公司"},{"start":4672.811,"end":4684.378,"text":"竟然要被下市了那針對這個部分的時候我們台電這邊有沒有什麼一些因應的狀態或者是要如何去做那我這邊我再直接問一下經濟部長因為我看到經濟部這邊講到說他們這個案場"},{"start":4687.589,"end":4708.618,"text":"執行率已經超過96%了就將近要完工 剩下3點多%就完工結果現在出現這樣子的一個事情那我在想說因為這個案子是經濟部就是跟台電簽約 台電再統包出來的一個狀態那我們現在要如何來處理這後續的一個問題因為600多億的錢都是"},{"start":4712.239,"end":4737.883,"text":"老百姓的民脂民膏那當時在推一個綠能國家隊的時候去做這樣子的一個事情讓一個好好的一個上市公司走到現在瀕臨要下市的一個邊緣6月23號要下市那這個狀態是我想請一下就是曾董事長跟我們工部長的時候針對這部分可不可以做一個具體的一個說明然後我們要如何來做這後續的善後"},{"start":4738.363,"end":4755.011,"text":"那個報告委員第一件事情就是這一個事情的得票台電離岸風場的得票廠商其實是那個富威不是深威理解富威是深威百分之百的子公司好不好不是富威的財務出狀況"},{"start":4756.212,"end":4772.478,"text":"我想說這個媒體這樣報那你要就是說這裡面是到底是哪一個部分轉投資他轉投資的公司帶來的比較大的虧損我覺得這個要被釐清這是第一點我想說因為人家是上市公司我這不能夠在這邊代替他回答"},{"start":4773.078,"end":4793.334,"text":"但是我們的簽約公司是富威那因為富威是正威是深威百分之百的子公司富威它是百分之百深威的子公司出現異常是富威造成的還是其他因素造成的我想說媒體上面有些也有在報導"},{"start":4793.814,"end":4818.108,"text":"同時有兩塊一塊是富威這邊因為承接了台電的一個案子另外一塊的時候是為了要富威他去做海事工程的時候他們有一個在新加坡的一個公司叫做寶威的一個海事的一個公司然後因為海事寶威的狀態是深威67%的持股所以因為這件事情的時候導致現在整個深威的一個那個"},{"start":4821.593,"end":4849.127,"text":"淨資產出現負數我想這肯定是有關係的那我在想說真董事長現在想要這樣去做一個履歷其實表示說升威下市是升威下市跟台電跟富威這邊的關係都沒有關係您想表達的是這樣的一個情況嗎我要跟委員表達的是我們現在在做履約的工作包括你講公淨如何我們要找的我們的得標廠商是富威我們跟富威去"},{"start":4850.687,"end":4875.515,"text":"繼續協商後續的工作怎麼進行這才是我們現在要管理的最重要的工作就台電公司來講理解 沒有問題喔北溪也支持的狀態所以台電這邊要跟富威這邊後續怎麼去做因為富威是升威百分之百的子公司所以導致了一家上市公司6月23號被證交所要求要下市不是富威導致升威啊"},{"start":4876.275,"end":4895.7,"text":"就不是婦威導致申威比較重OK 你可以這麼解釋啦不過我們看到所有的相關的狀態因為至少說申威他們在當時做的一個那個重訓的時候有提到這個部分那我想請教一下部長針對這個部分因為我們看到這整個狀態經濟部特別跳出來說"},{"start":4897.765,"end":4914.079,"text":"富威他們的一個質詢率已經高達了96%以上那針對這個部分的時候呢我們經濟部這邊對於這家廠商他們所衍生出來的可能產生的一些"},{"start":4916.26,"end":4941.376,"text":"工程的一個延期或者是一個追加預追加款項的部分的時候經濟部這邊會採取怎麼樣的一個態度來因應報告委員那個採購法或者是合約進行因為他們兩照都有合約進行當然兩照對於合約有不同的解釋的時候或者不可抗力因素的時候公共整合委會他們會有一些協處"},{"start":4943.877,"end":4964.87,"text":"那我們希望說兩兆對於這個公共工程委員會協助都可以同意來進行沒問題喔 那我想說經濟部來講最希望這個工程還是可以完成因為畢竟它已經大部分時間最困難的部分都已經那個機裝都已經做好了只是把這個風機裝上去而已是 那因為它這邊也超出了"},{"start":4965.79,"end":4988.441,"text":"經濟部跟台電還有台電跟富威他們的一個合約的要完工期間所以後續可能也會碰到有一些追繳罰款的問題等等的問題我想說這個部分請經濟部跟台電社在他的本辦公室來做一個具體的說明然後我這邊還要再特別了解一下因為台電目前跟很多的一個國際廠商"},{"start":4989.682,"end":5012.219,"text":"似乎也出現了一些工程的糾紛包括了可能包括文宏包括了住友包括了一個瑞麗我不知道是不是有這樣子的事情那如果說有在公共工程委員會這邊在進行調解或者是仲裁或者是直接在進行訴訟的部分大概有多少的廠商可不可以請董事長簡單回應一下"},{"start":5012.959,"end":5036.798,"text":"跟委員報告您剛才提到的狀況是這樣就是我們過去這幾年來的工程都遇到疫情還有核武戰爭就是它的一些一些設備在輸送上面都遇到一些時間上的問題那這中間很多都有一些工期上調整的一些爭議所以我們基本上就是依照採購法的規範那有爭議需要調處的時候我們就是會請工程會來協處"},{"start":5037.799,"end":5064.487,"text":"理解 你剛剛也很清楚講到說因為疫情跟整個烏日戰爭所導致一些國際很多時事的一個變遷的狀態所以導致你們現在跟很多國際的一個大廠也產生一些工程的一個糾紛那我在想說我不理解說就是富威是不是也是類似的一個狀態可是不管怎麼樣子我們希望因為錢都花出去了而且是幾百億的錢而且當時是為了要"},{"start":5065.347,"end":5085.342,"text":"把綠能國家隊把它給建立起來因為我看到很多媒體當時對這家公司也極盡這個吹捧的一個狀態因為它是綠能國家隊很重要的一個指標那我們希望經濟部能夠責成台電這邊的時候盡快把這個相關的事情把它給妥善讓它能夠"},{"start":5086.983,"end":5113.778,"text":"具體能夠開始發電然後跟所有的國際廠商的糾紛的時候我也希望說知道一些後續的細節那請董事長這邊之後再到本辦公室來做一個說明目前到底有多少的工程糾紛在我們的公共工程委員會或者是在司法的訴訟當中 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭振銓委員 謝謝部長董事長好 接下來我請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":5127.573,"end":5136.255,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言首先來邀請台電台電 董事長那個總經理 新任的總經理董事長 總經理那總經理新上任你強調自己是穩定供電的操盤手那你也表示今年年底將要完成台中電廠新一更新二號的這個燃氣機組"},{"start":5156.238,"end":5185.044,"text":"那我想我們長期跟董事長不管他擔任市長或者擔任總經理我們一直在討論怎麼樣讓台中的空氣能夠更清新怎麼樣能夠還給我們台中人的一個健康呼一口新鮮的空氣那所以呢因此中部地區的人呢付出了那麼多中火在那裡所以我們好不容易以氣來換煤那所以我想要首先請"},{"start":5186.224,"end":5196.973,"text":"那個總經理回答好了你既然是總操盤手那請問什麼時候新一號二號的燃氣機組可以上傳來按下去對好可以委員好"},{"start":5209.169,"end":5218.335,"text":"目前是5月份的時候,本年度的5月份的時候會1號機會接受調度已經都接受調度2號機是在預計11月份的時候會接受調度"},{"start":5226.758,"end":5244.154,"text":"所以換句話說 燃氣機組1號機5月份就現在2號機是11月份我們的指標是如此會完成啦 因為目前進度是應該是OK的這個是機組接受調度上限所以換句話說 時間可能還會超前那再請教什麼時候拆我們的這個燃煤機組"},{"start":5256.985,"end":5266.083,"text":"2026年如果一號機商轉之後就是在今年年底今年年底拆藍莓機組的一號機跟二號機"},{"start":5269.363,"end":5293.79,"text":"我們這個是長期大家一直努力所以一定要達成成功因為中部地區我再強調我們付出了那麼多理當還給我們清新的空氣所以我們預計在今年年底拆藍莓機組的一號機跟二號機那其餘的我們明年度還是繼續加油只要有爭氣"},{"start":5295.41,"end":5304.812,"text":"就是要拆煤以這個原則好 謝謝你 接下來董事長 部長來 請經濟部長一起來總經理請回座好了台電是國家非常重要的資產 我們都說台電不能倒台電的員工很辛苦 但是台電的負債讓我們這個要謹慎為之那謹慎為之的時候呢 如果"},{"start":5325.851,"end":5341.257,"text":"如果有任何應當要拿回給台電的錢而不追討回來那這個就是對不起人民那部長你也點頭表示你認同本席的這個說法是不是是不是對好所以我們繼續來討論跟業有同仁我們繼續討論也就是人民好幾百億的血汗錢"},{"start":5354.932,"end":5381.21,"text":"台電在離岸風電發電的第二期計畫裡頭由深威能源的子公司也就是富威能源以628.88億的天價來做銅棒但到目前為止我們看到合約的採購很清楚設備採購與安裝的需求書裡頭寫得很清楚你必須在114年12月31號前必須完成全部工程的竣工"},{"start":5382.291,"end":5396.06,"text":"現在是什麼時候現在是115年的5月中旬換句話說依照你的合約書你的需求量來說已經超過將近半年的時間所以要請教部長目前我們31座的機組我們安裝了幾座"},{"start":5399.338,"end":5425,"text":"機座我們安裝了幾座 幾座上面有寫一座 對幾座 一座 對為什麼因為他是先裝那個機裝機裝先裝完以後最後才裝風機所以他的機裝現在已經都完成了現在很快的就是把那個風機裝上去就好了機裝完成他已經超越時間剛剛你也特別回答我們只要把它裝上就好了請問什麼時候裝上"},{"start":5426.667,"end":5448.315,"text":"如果是今年可以繼續施工的話因為今年可以裝完如果是今年可以繼續施工換句話說你已經給人民一個答案你已經超越時間沒有完成部長你再回答不是 報告委員這個就是剛剛提到的因為兩兆在合約上有一點爭議因為他們講說有一些不可能好 你來一個來一個爭議"},{"start":5450.936,"end":5461.455,"text":"我們很清楚 你告訴我們說你的工程已經完成了96%那這個不是我講的 這個是對方訴求這是你的次長說的這在媒體上面都披露"},{"start":5463.32,"end":5468.303,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下這個96%到底是什麼96%是我們的預付款已經拿了人民的納稅錢的96%是不是啊委員這個不是什麼預付款我先說明一下這個契約叫做財務採購代安裝他基本上採購的是設備然後他要負責安裝完成那他因為他設備都已經抵岸都已經到台中港"},{"start":5486.594,"end":5513.169,"text":"所以他其實在整個設備的估價上面對於合約旅行的百分比依照我們標準的工程合約財務財過代安裝的合約他就是要把這些已經到達已經送抵的這些計算進去但工程還有一個最重要的一塊就是要把風機裝上這件事海嵐目前正在施工這個是關鍵如果沒有裝上等於是"},{"start":5515.12,"end":5530.405,"text":"當然裝上 它要把它好好裝上才能夠順利發電這個是關鍵的工項 這個也是確定的對 所以在這樣子的情況之下在你的需求量 你的合約裡頭寫明是要在114年的12月31號去完成這個是原來合約要完成的時間當然是你訂約要有合約啊對"},{"start":5538.507,"end":5546.954,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是所有的工程師做只要遇到不管是天后或其他你這個理由我們繼續來討論不可抗力我們人民情何以堪在你的第14頁裡頭的第4項裡頭完成所有風力發電機組以及海上發電的這個下部結構設置你如果明明白白寫清楚"},{"start":5566.01,"end":5577.209,"text":"你如果預約一個日曆工作天就是要罰一百零五萬三十座就是要多少呢就是要三千 一天就是要三千一百五十萬"},{"start":5578.618,"end":5593.331,"text":"那個一個月就是將近10億的錢所以就沉入雲南的時候上一次我們一直討論該依法計法的411億那今天台電的二期的這個部分讓我成這樣 我請問本席要請問喔"},{"start":5596.974,"end":5620.842,"text":"本校請問 因為子公司今天復會的一個情況導致聲威甚至要被爆出 禁止轉付甚至要終止上市 剛剛你回答了雞生蛋 蛋生雞是什麼原因我們的人民就希望要知道到底是什麼原因所以我在這邊要代表著全體的納稅人"},{"start":5622.563,"end":5623.025,"text":"要請問這一筆一天3150萬的預期違約金你台電有開罰了嗎"},{"start":5631.36,"end":5643.364,"text":"我跟委員報告幾件事情我跟委員報告幾件事情第一件事情你剛才講允能的事這跟這個工程合約是完全兩件事當然上次我跟你討論過我舉這個例子告訴你我講第二件事情就是升威升威的財務狀況我們的簽約對象是富威當然不是升威他是他的子公司所以剛剛請你針對本期的評論"},{"start":5657.182,"end":5661.606,"text":"請你針對本席的提問 3151億的違約金你們有沒有開罰報告委員 這些工程時程進度上面中間的落差人家只要他有具體的理由他都可以去聽真心好 這就是人民要聽的具體的理由違法就是違法"},{"start":5679.887,"end":5683.93,"text":"你同意這一點 我告訴你部長站在這邊如果你要用疫情你要用惡霧戰爭你要用通膨升息這些不可抗的爛藉口那人民的納稅錢要怎麼做處理"},{"start":5699.921,"end":5714.559,"text":"報告委員剛才前一位委員的質詢是說我們應該要去注意這一些不可抗力因素所以光是在國會就有兩種意見那我們只能夠做一件事就是這些申訴程序就到工程會去協助好 請告訴你"},{"start":5715.97,"end":5740.724,"text":"台電已經同意追加了55.57億而且還要兼顧付款你的理由有爭議就到哪裡就到這個調解委員會去做調解你們就是這麼做但是人民要問的一邊要給立法院拿千億的撥補一邊又要讓台電成為私人的一個"},{"start":5741.664,"end":5761.317,"text":"提款機部長這是不同意這樣的一個做法台電公司的財務如此你們一定要嚴格的依合約去執行當然所以本席告訴你本席告訴你本席告訴你這個628.88億他的班前的三部曲第一部"},{"start":5767.321,"end":5783.219,"text":"低價投標高價變更部長你要聽清楚當時他們是用比較便宜的新聞紙來搶標得標了之後又想要要求轉換為高價的維斯塔斯的方式"},{"start":5784.366,"end":5803.823,"text":"然後基座可以減少這裡又莫名其妙的增加了將近70億也就是歐元的2.1億在這樣子的一個情況之下就像你進了餐廳你買的是你點的是洋蔥麵但是你要付款的時候要求台電要付一個頂級的牛肉麵錢第二步告訴你無手轉單疑心大法"},{"start":5811.263,"end":5828.814,"text":"台建我們編了60億的維運管理費5年但是他再發包海外的部分27億33億跑到哪裡去 部長第三個 也就是更惡劣的你不蓋風場 你海外去洗船錢"},{"start":5830.834,"end":5858.062,"text":"海上的風機躺在那裡 你趕快裝啊一騎啦但是他用台電的這個預付款去買了三台工作船台電的合約書裡頭沒有要買要求要買工作船大家都在評論這三艘的工作船溢價了60億所以因此 部長"},{"start":5859.485,"end":5870.269,"text":"我們看到這樣的情況變更機型多出了70億維運差價不見了33億海外買船又溢價了60億這是在幫台灣蓋風場嗎還是把台電剛剛本席說的"},{"start":5879.606,"end":5898.309,"text":"當成是提款機呢台電面對的是付威啊我們還是針對付威當然是付威啊你怎麼不針對本集的提問大家都知道簽約的是付威啊對啊你上面講的是深威的事情那不是付威啊什麼深威的事情你的簽約是付威啊對不對所以告訴你部長現在台灣看到這樣子的一個情況"},{"start":5910.1,"end":5931.467,"text":"原公司 子公司互威來簽約 到現在已經搞到台灣的股市支不抵債 禁止轉付 要面臨下次 海外的資金一零重重那海上的風機 富無威所跟你簽約的海上的風機 至今只裝了31座 只裝了一座"},{"start":5933.689,"end":5962.057,"text":"紙上的一座所以本席在這邊要嚴密的提出經濟部跟台電你必須要去徹查清楚你必須要去徹查清楚徹查什麼呢第一個 升位跟富威有沒有利用預付款來轉投資境外公司背書保證公有沒有不合營業常規的一個交易有沒有掏空資產"},{"start":5963.444,"end":5991.866,"text":"他的資金流向以及在合約台電跟富威合約依法的情況之下的責任到底是如何本席嚴正的要求你在一個月內將這些的資料給我們給本席也給我們經濟委員會大家都在關心這些錢到底目前的流向是怎麼樣這些進度到底是如何"},{"start":5993.652,"end":6001.878,"text":"請部長我們還是按照合約來進行當然台電公司跟合約 請一個月內將這一些剛剛本席所提的一個月內提出報告我們可以說明可以說明所以在你還沒有提出說明之前你必須要要求主案嚴格審查而且暫停所有的"},{"start":6022.209,"end":6029.371,"text":"這個這個追加的這個預算凍結沒有按照合約啊當然按照合約啊當然按照合約啊所以一天3100多億的這個多萬的這個錢你們到底"},{"start":6039.048,"end":6065.016,"text":"什麼社會去理清楚告訴社會大眾按照合約來進行當然按照合約一定要依合約來進行一定一定一個月內請將資料給本席不要讓人民當成好 請那個經濟部跟台電好不好做個報告也不要讓台電淪為私人公司的提款機這回事啊好 謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們有請這個邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":6080.128,"end":6086.054,"text":"好謝謝主席是不是我們邀請經濟部拱部長請經濟部拱部長曾董事長台電曾董事長"},{"start":6106.469,"end":6131.175,"text":"這個是台電的營運跟未來的這個電價這個中東的戰事不曉得會持續多久直接影響到能源的成本就是說這個中油在4月跟5月的時候天然氣價格調漲41%5月份調漲了多少%調漲將近10% 對不對所以台電自己預估每個月成本5月開始增加電130億"},{"start":6133.823,"end":6158.685,"text":"那我們九月份會有這個針對下半年度的電價的審議這個如果持續中東戰事你們每個月成本電貨130億以上那九月電價審議你們可能會怎麼樣去思考這個問題這個部長報委員我想那個價格的變化我們持續在關注啦齁那"},{"start":6160.442,"end":6189.144,"text":"因為這個電價最後的決定權還是在台電不能倒啊如果你的每度電要按照現在的計算的話每度電你要調升0.6到0.68成本因為我們最重要的目的是穩定供電這是第一個第二個才是照顧民生穩定供電這絕對一定要做到這是最高的前提接著你要穩定物價嘛所以這種情況你要怎麼去拿捏啊"},{"start":6189.924,"end":6213.448,"text":"那你未來在9月很快喔再過幾個月就到9月你現在預估調漲的可能性怎麼樣我們還是把所有的資訊如果是暫時到9月都還沒有停止所有把所有的資訊讓這個電價審議委員會了解剛剛委員提到了嘛穩定物價台電不能倒這個是先決條件那也讓審議委員知道"},{"start":6217.409,"end":6237.658,"text":"那同時間這樣這樣的狀況我們也會讓行政院知道如果你要把它繼續動漲電價最主要目的就是說把物價穩定下來 對不對好 但是直接受到影響就是這個台電的財務狀況是 財務狀況 那你預估如果假設啦 9月份又繼續動漲"},{"start":6242.27,"end":6266.671,"text":"那你這個財務缺口會負債比會不會再增加到就11億以上所以我想台電 曾董事長那跟委員報告就是當然現在這個狀況就是如果每個月都要增加100多億的負擔的話那以目前我們的電價來看是沒有辦法完全止盈的這是確定的那不過"},{"start":6267.452,"end":6285.345,"text":"因為這個事情是一個很特殊的狀況所以我相信中油大概也都是在反應氣價上面他也會看整個變化來做一些調整所以我們現在還在了解中就是說這個因為4月5月漲完之後其實一些相關的價格有稍微回落"},{"start":6285.985,"end":6307.706,"text":"那包括是現貨價格跟班特都有效益回落那回落長期的狀況會怎樣我們大概還會再看一下那這跟委員報告好就是說到九月份其實還有一段時間那我們夏季尖峰也快要到其實關於財務這個部分我們說要做最大的打算如果每個月都一百三十幾億你們這個經典會具有虧損"},{"start":6310.429,"end":6320.756,"text":"你們財富狀況又惡化然後很多的這些基礎建設投資你們就沒有辦法去做電網、內信這些都要很多資本投入啊你們巨額虧損,虧損到已經負債90%以上了"},{"start":6326.372,"end":6342.035,"text":"這種情況你們要衡量一下我們因為去年的狀況有稍微改善跟委員報告那就是今年我們會繼續努力那當然還是中油那邊進口的狀況我們會持續來挖取好這個把它當作一個國安問題是這是認識國安問題另外這個離岸封電的部分離岸封電這個"},{"start":6351.475,"end":6374.47,"text":"幾個問題提供給這個經濟部或者是這個台人做參考現在有一些困境包括地方政府每個地方政府的審查數據都不太相同很冗長然後這個機制的選商也僵化那融資通常都很大額的融資門檻又高所以以及這三個困境造成推動這個聯安風電的困難"},{"start":6377.031,"end":6402.136,"text":"所以我這邊提出一些建議選商的規則你要怎麼去做一些調整另外國家融資的保證年限是不是也可以考慮另外浮動式風電示範計畫你們有沒有推動而且要加速另外很多都需要國發會或者是這個跨部會來做協調的所以是不是有一個跨部會協調其實近期針對目前這個離岸風電的狀況來做一些的調整"},{"start":6407.369,"end":6434.578,"text":"這個請部長是不是回答一下有那您這四個建議第一個選商我們當然是33著重在他的執行率跟他的財務狀況那當然也有一些ESG的這個獎勵修正成這樣子那第二個說國家融資保證的部分那這個部分我們也跟國發會有做了一些協商那可以擴大他的一些保證金額"},{"start":6435.658,"end":6459.921,"text":"那第三個就是有關於浮動式的部分現在已經有新的一級跟33會並同有開始有一些示範性的一些做法然後跨部會協商機制是持續有的就是說除了跟國發會之外因為他是國家農事保證嘛那另外跟這個農業部也好或海委會也好還有交通部也好都有一個跨部會的一個協商機制"},{"start":6461.423,"end":6464.951,"text":"另外我最近跟這些產業界做一些座談針對離岸風電的這個海底電纜"},{"start":6469.399,"end":6488.844,"text":"風電的電纜這當然是不是一個重要的國安的這個設施啊因為很多不管日本跟澳洲也進行這個所謂海底電纜的維護或者這個相關的保護的作為的合作所以聯風電的電纜這個很重要包括這個日本日本也這個經濟產業經產省他們也發布一個"},{"start":6494.431,"end":6502.841,"text":"把那個HVDC這個電纜列為核心補助對象就是它要做到電纜的國產化了這部分台電有沒有思考這個HVDC"},{"start":6507.299,"end":6529.441,"text":"補助現在是沒有啦日本啊把它列為這個補助對象就是他要把這個海底電纜的資源變成國安的資源而不是依賴這個其他國家所以讓我們自己可以自己去生產自己去製造歐洲也是有相關的做法包括美國有相關的做法韓國也是這樣的做法"},{"start":6530.302,"end":6549.176,"text":"所以這個部分未來經濟部跟台電有沒有在思考我們是有在三商選商裡面是有說因為如果海底電纜你是在地採購的話是有等於是有鼓勵啦鼓勵性質假鼓勵但是其他國家都是用補助耶你看日本直接補助"},{"start":6552.535,"end":6567.5,"text":"306億之前的這個修法事實上也把這個所謂海底的電纜不是通訊電纜這個發電的電纜也放入到我們是關鍵的基礎設施裡面所以關鍵基礎設施已經放進去海底電纜了嗎"},{"start":6568.462,"end":6589.551,"text":"有有有這個應當適同的國防設施這跟國家安全有密切相關對所以說假如說我們發現海上有一些奇怪的船他如果想要可能會造成我們的危害的時候我們會扣船等等一些情況那進口的海嵐你有沒有相關的國安的審查機制如果進口的海嵐"},{"start":6590.459,"end":6606.899,"text":"有 我們是不能用對岸的那其他國家 其他國家他可能透過其他的國家轉進來如果用中國產品我們會注意 對所以我覺得這部分那台電如果在這個台電端的部分這個驗收要怎麼去把關呢那個台電"},{"start":6612.058,"end":6629.549,"text":"海嵐的最終驗收必須在台灣本土用台電來主導基本上你如果講的是離岸風場離岸風場它所有的設備都有認證標準都有認證標準一定是照著國際認證標準來認證所以符合國家安全相關的規範對這個認證標準一定會符合國家相關安全規範"},{"start":6630.578,"end":6655.358,"text":"那有沒有跟其他國家進行這個海岸的合作?其實台灣目前為止我們涉谷老電網其實沒有去做跟其他國家就是跟其他國家電網並聯的問題因為我好像時間到了我再問一個問題今天在高嶺上看到一個報導這個河山的甘楚這個"},{"start":6657.743,"end":6660.374,"text":"這個竟然有廠商跑去經濟部抗議"},{"start":6663.507,"end":6690.361,"text":"說這個評選不公我說應當不至於有這種狀況嘛就請台電或者昨天是不是部長您被抗議的這到底是什麼狀況那個跟委員報告我想說我們也覺得這是很罕見就是說如果你沒有得標的話基本上台灣的法律結構是有申訴的你不管是向台電反映或是到工程會去申訴這個都是可以的但昨天那樣子的狀況我們也非常的意外"},{"start":6691.081,"end":6703.317,"text":"那我想說一些相關的指控我們昨天也對外依依做說明我想說尤其對於安全這件事情你們說是一個抹黑你們是一個抹黑而且你們研究要提告媒體是這樣說明我這樣子說就是說"},{"start":6707.294,"end":6725.689,"text":"我覺得對於所有的程序有任何批評指教我們都可以討論是不是釋法而且這些過程裡面我們有有些部分的一些提出來的一些內容我們都跟主管機關都請教過這是釋法的程序但我要跟委員報告指控台電罔顧和安"},{"start":6727.741,"end":6755.438,"text":"這個對台電來講台電不能接受強烈的表示你們立場所以昨天我們已經回應了就是一個核能的專業的公司指控台電罔顧核安這個台電不能接受這個不排除會提告好像台南五董市長坐在那邊很久都沒有人叫你再半分鐘"},{"start":6757.543,"end":6774.057,"text":"三十秒我諮詢都有天花板 我諮詢沒有無邊際的來 那個吳董事長 這個因為你坐在那邊我看到你一直想要上台的感覺沒有沒有 這個台堂的休息事業一直在了結"},{"start":6775.416,"end":6803.553,"text":"譬如說建山北的渡假村 台東的慈善還有長榮酒店 台北會館我想都了解住房率都沒有好其實你們可以來檢討是不是你定位的問題行銷策略 還是經營管理這部分因為你們有休息事業部嘛所以如果你要檢討說有什麼收入一直遞減住房率有什麼差你們人事費用都是要支出嘛"},{"start":6805.069,"end":6825.764,"text":"這不能說整體這個國旅沒有那麼好的 你要自己把自己的台南特色把它打出來對 那個 我跟你講的是 但是台北會館我們是賺錢的有賺錢喔對 那個台南 它那個當然跟那個折舊燈之類 但是當初是跟長榮簽約 有長榮"},{"start":6828.827,"end":6845.764,"text":"用他們的LOGO等之類的當然我們還有很大的改善空間那尖山坪那個地方那個池上就是因為整個台東當然我們可以親近因為那邊本來有有一些設施這樣走那個董事長這個再順便資料給我親近作為另外在我那個"},{"start":6850.889,"end":6869.479,"text":"這個 各位啊 九夥頭 九夥頭 廠工三邊 因為真的台中大要誕生這個 要催生台灣帝國子彈 Smart Dong要結合AI 半導體 扣件 這些鋼鐵我們蓋一個比較不要那麼大規模 大概兩萬五左右"},{"start":6870.64,"end":6887.307,"text":"那邊又有捷運 又有高速公路 生活經驗又方便主要是要有你們的地部長 我們讓台塘的休閒事業能夠發揮我建議可以在郊頭那邊的台南地 蓋一個子彈"},{"start":6893.437,"end":6921.659,"text":"完全是AI完全是這個完全是自動化然後讓南部天氣很熱有時候會下雨讓這個室內的比賽能夠不會受到影響我那個已經有接觸一家公司他們有信息那將相關的資料上次你也跟我們指教的部分他們再study看看一下因為一下要到台一堂沒有這方面的連財可能目前是不夠啦但是我們會盡量積極來"},{"start":6923.34,"end":6950.016,"text":"配合政府政策來做這個事其實運動休閒產業也算是屬於經濟的一個部分如果能夠把運動休閒產業能夠帶動起來這也是跟經濟部業務相關所以部長是不是可以跟這個運動部跟市政府多合作來催生這個子彈我知道我知道 我在瞭解我是不想選擇對的選擇是我就來做這個博恩我來瞭解你來瞭解謝謝"},{"start":6952.952,"end":6957.954,"text":"好謝謝邱志偉委員現在請洪義祥委員做詢答好謝謝主席我們有請這個台電董事長跟總經理董事長總經理"},{"start":6979.192,"end":7007.312,"text":"好我想是這樣子整個在我是很認真把你們的預算書整個都在看完然後稍微整理一下就是大概從數據可以驗證大概過去這幾年我們對台電以及我們整個能源結構政策的問題的看法基本上從數字來看是蠻準的那從你們115年度的一個收入"},{"start":7008.969,"end":7016.082,"text":"減少支出總支出是增加而且是300多億所以整個大概你今年115年度的虧損預估大概是280億那當然你去年有一點餘處"},{"start":7023.254,"end":7047.062,"text":"但是之後你打掉這個虧損反正你整個的營運資金的話看起來今年你預估是大概也是負的7450億左右我的問題很簡單這個數字看起來都是慘不能讀我們也都理解我的問題是這個是政策不對造成還是我們不會經營造成我想請董事長"},{"start":7049.434,"end":7078.864,"text":"那個跟委員報告我覺得主要是要看我們台電公司現在擔負了哪些政策我想說幾個事情第一個事情就是電價因為不要通膨避免通膨這個我都清楚那這個也是政策的負擔你是覺得政策的比較大還是績效比較大因為績效不好就找你我跟委員報告對你講的完全正確我沒有辦法在這件事情上完全自己講說是什麼原因"},{"start":7079.484,"end":7106.46,"text":"台電的經營績效必須被提升是董事長的責任但台電同時肩負了很多政策任務這也是事實明白所以我第一說未來就是你如果可以的話應該在今年的報告裡面把政策你該負擔的對不對這是成本跟你經營績效這些的成本效益分開來看也許這樣就會清楚不然你整個混在一起說實在的台電董事長者馬拍者對不對"},{"start":7106.88,"end":7132.277,"text":"我跟委員報告我覺得您講的這個事情確實如果要多一份理解可以理解這個事但我們的預算書編列其實是從兩年前就開始製編因為包括因為我要在去年8月以前送進來那個其實中間都會有一些時間差沒問題啦因為我是說這是結構性的問題好不好你再進去看看那再來第二個剛剛這個也有一些委員在質詢這個問題不管邱議員問什麼"},{"start":7134.775,"end":7152.948,"text":"我的感覺是這樣子啦不只是你們台丁 台丁剩它水小 對不對就剛好第一泡這樣子中油也有啊台糖也有啊當然是不同公司啦台水也有那這時候讓你們經濟部改組那這個跟工部長沒關係應該是王美花部長那時候"},{"start":7154.322,"end":7182.881,"text":"他很重視美學嘛我們也都被唸過簡報的配色不對我還有一堆但是我的問題是我的問題很簡單啊就是說我們既然都是一些虧損除了台糖應該有賺錢之外我覺得虧損的企業暫時在logo跟識別這一塊未來如果再遇到這樣子有這種TOP DOWN的指示我們就專業一點因為我待過民間那麼多公司也真的沒有看過這樣子啊"},{"start":7184.663,"end":7205.46,"text":"你賺錢都不要緊這是我給你的建議不用回答因為也不是你的錯我就剛講嘛這是政策的問題嘛再來的話就是我看一下你們的預算受電量增加0.39%電費收入增加9.2%我就根據你們的數字去算的這都根據你們的預算書"},{"start":7206.325,"end":7217.71,"text":"那這個時候來講我的問題就是說發電量差不多但是電費的收入增加就是代表我們今年的下半年我是要調漲電費"},{"start":7219.192,"end":7240.097,"text":"那個跟委員報告其實是一樣就是時間lag的關係就是你如果跟2025年相較那2025年的如果有任何的電費調整都不會及時反映這第一點因為它是事後反映所以在預算裡面本來就不會反映這第一個是第二個是我們在編制這些預算的時候更有一個重要的問題就是我其實是"},{"start":7242.958,"end":7270.954,"text":"因為2025年實際出現因為你告訴我一定都是電價委員會決定您是說今年下半年你說電價的狀況我跟委員報告喔狀況就是這樣台電公司的責任是我們把所有經營狀況去跟委員會做報告那有哪些部分其實是燃料成本哪些東西是因為我增加了非常多投資的折舊我們都會一一做說明"},{"start":7271.494,"end":7298.412,"text":"但我要跟委員報告我們現在才五月那接下來整個市場會怎麼反應包括我們也最近在看OPEC有沒有什麼變化我相信委員都在關心這件事就是它那個OPEC的變化對於油價的變化會有什麼樣的反應而且中國公司可能比我們Watch的更深所以我們現在都會透過部裡面的協調在瞭解整個燃料價格的走勢因為我覺得行政院或經濟部大概就是"},{"start":7299.292,"end":7325.502,"text":"中油台電難兄難弟嘛A公司虧損乾脆就轉嫁給虧更多的B公司好了這樣看起來是我們這個明白了我們就不用再辯解大概知道再來因為我們的核電好像可能要重啟但是我如果看你們的預算大概成本的結構就是出現在火力發電跟購入電力吃掉台電大半的一個成本因為這兩個加起來大概就是8,443億那"},{"start":7328.243,"end":7348.013,"text":"燃氣這個當然沒辦法因為你核電停完之後火力發電我們要需要是減低燃煤所以這個燃氣的依賴比過高剛剛邱委員也問了這也是國安問題我們現在的存量大概是11還是14我們現在大概是12、13天左右差不多"},{"start":7349.721,"end":7367.118,"text":"那現在在這個購電這個3567億的你們的這個成本的這個估算裡面再生能源的購電我幫你算起來大概是差不多應該有1750億這個占比是非常非常的高那"},{"start":7368.079,"end":7389.622,"text":"這個是 我是覺得這個是我們重大財務壓力的問題那這個時候我也去幫你算一下如果你們這些藍煤購電 燃氣購電的話大概大概3.29 3.73跟你的平均電價3.87是差不多但是我們的離岸風電 太陽光電我們自古以來就知道了都很高都高於我們的平均的售電的價格"},{"start":7390.763,"end":7415.737,"text":"所以我覺得回到我剛剛講的問題說實在改善也不是你技巧不好因為政策要配合因為我們再生能源的占比要占20%那我只是提醒你巧婦難為無米之炊所以我是覺得就是在這些方面我們當然就能省則省那另外我也要提醒就是說因為你們的固定資產投資在智慧電網我都支持但是"},{"start":7417.248,"end":7441.806,"text":"負債比實在很高就從公司經營來看你現在利息一年要付多少利息一年大概是400億300多還不到400億300多億所以我是怕你今年如果再負債更多這個可能你今年會再舉債多少我們預計就是我們今年就是計息的簡單講就是計息負債大概是兩兆"},{"start":7444.031,"end":7459.765,"text":"兩兆對不對你要借新還舊還是借比較便宜的我這樣說我們整個整個財務結構裡面有公司在他有公司在然後也有跟銀行借款等等他都有到期的問題所以一定會有借新還舊就是我舊的到期我一新的去補"},{"start":7460.545,"end":7483.078,"text":"但是我們基本上就是看利率的狀況我們也有發行一些商業的本票等等的這個因為前面的資金規模很大所以這個我現在都善盡提醒因為我們接下來就是我們還有國防軍購嘛你到期的時候匯入美金那個匯率在上去的時候那央行如果要他可能會升息所以你的利息的支出我覺得你們這些財塊的可能要把這個風險因子要估計進去"},{"start":7486.92,"end":7501.309,"text":"比你300多可能下去我看今年搞不好到年底就400億所以這個可能要稍微注意一下我都很提醒啦我這很認真的看你的預算書啦坤委員報告謝謝你提醒我講一個事您馬上知道就是因為我們有一些債"},{"start":7502.31,"end":7522.399,"text":"其實是之前借的所以他那個時候利息比較低的時候我們就有佈局那當然最近一段時間他有波動所以是平均來看我們大概300多億那我剛才講我剛才講說不到400億是用2兆乘以2%算出來的那2%這已經是高的利率了我想說就這樣明白跟委員報告就跟您好是"},{"start":7522.819,"end":7548.708,"text":"那再來就是說這也是跟我剛剛第一個問題問的一樣就是很多重大工程我們是配合政策沒辦法是回收的這個報酬率也很低不管是離岸風力加強電網或者是我們的一個南科相關物色的這些都是這些政策的東西我是認為可能再來將來就是應該是讓政府去編錢去做這些政策而不是要放在台電的資產負債表"},{"start":7550.549,"end":7576.523,"text":"因為這樣子就顯得你們的這個幫政府去美化行政院的帳面然後使得你的這個帳面虧損很難看嘛你的財塊都點頭我告訴你那個委員那個如果如果部長編了預算您是不是可以支持部長這樣要補貼台電的話那就是就責行政院啊行政院來專案報告啊對不對我們當然是會支持不然我是覺得從公司經營角度很奇怪啊對不對"},{"start":7577.463,"end":7589.925,"text":"你們爸爸媽媽撂的錢 叫這個孩子要扛這個孩子的帳面就很難看然後每天都成為標靶然後員工如果要加薪或者是發獎金你們到年底又會被唸"},{"start":7591.533,"end":7610.291,"text":"對不對就一再因果循環啦我是幫台電的員工說話啦我只是說在你們將來的這個報告裡頭如果把政策跟你經營績效實質去分開這樣我才能夠看出說這個曾文森跟這個郭總經理來帶領這個台電經營績效好不好嘛"},{"start":7612.273,"end":7634.811,"text":"不然到時候我們就說這是政策背的鍋怪在你們兩個身上我覺得也不對啦好不好我是就事論事啦以上的話大概是這樣具體的要求我想就是後面大概我再跟總經理這邊再來聊聊好不好再讓我詳細的理解好 謝謝台堂的我就是書面質詢你也說你今天有事有的你有事你書面質詢回答好 謝謝洪委員"},{"start":7655.779,"end":7669.939,"text":"好接下來我們請謝依鳳委員質詢好謝謝主席我想要請拱部長請拱部長"},{"start":7679.87,"end":7706.201,"text":"謝偉豪國務長早安我想請教一下就是美國川普總統他有公開的講台灣他說台灣偷走了美國的晶片產業而且要求所有在台灣做晶片的人都要搬到美國你認為他的目標是不是是多少的半導體產業"},{"start":7708.53,"end":7727.432,"text":"台灣的半導體是經過40年來的努力我們憑的是實力可是他想要我們搬到那裡啊他有沒有跟你談You are running Taiwan對不對He is one of the對不對他有沒有跟你談他沒有跟我談沒有跟你談啊他都在媒體上講"},{"start":7729.127,"end":7745.461,"text":"那所以你也不曉得到底美國政府他確切的目標是多少希望台灣的半導體業能夠整個搬到美國去我不可能 我們一定是先立足台灣才有佈局全球"},{"start":7746.345,"end":7763.294,"text":"那所以你的紅線呢經濟部的紅線以台積電來講的話他一定是在當地他台灣現在台灣還是他最賺錢的生產基地而且最先進的技術也都有在台灣研發中心也都在台灣所以台灣會持續的壯大"},{"start":7764.935,"end":7780.662,"text":"那全球布局他當然有他這個策略上的一些考量因為他如果不去美國的話那英特爾可能會壯大起來那對他也是可能很大的威脅所以他有必要去那邊做布局那我們也支持他這樣的一個做法"},{"start":7781.602,"end":7796.435,"text":"可是總不能夠是整個供應鏈那當然不可能啦是不是所以經濟部有沒有什麼紅線沒有在實務上也做不到從廠商的商業利益策略規劃來講也不可能做到這樣的"},{"start":7797.185,"end":7823.664,"text":"所以你們沒有設定一個界限因為產業如果對外投資的話一定金額以上都要經過我們這個投審師的審查就是投審會的審查我們當然會思考就是說這樣的投資會不會涉及幾個國家安全或整體的產業利益我們會通盤來考量那他們有沒有可能透過晶片法案"},{"start":7825.049,"end":7848.755,"text":"就是來對於就是說把它提到這個ARC裡面或者是未來台美在貿易上面相關的各項的協商裡面它有沒有可能利用他們的就是晶片法案來降低我們台美之間就是晶片世代的差距呢"},{"start":7849.762,"end":7876.465,"text":"包委員因為主要過去的晶片法案是拜登政府時代提出來的那主要是補助國外的廠商或是他國內廠商對美國的這個投資嘛但是川普總統現在已經他不補助了啊可是他直接他就是直接要求你要按照這個框架然後呢直接縮減了就是晶片世代的差距啊會不會"},{"start":7878.289,"end":7891.574,"text":"晶片世代的差距還是要看它基本上的競爭跟良率那台積電現在的良率還是最好的其他的公司應該還是沒有辦法跟台積電來做這個良率上的一些競爭"},{"start":7892.728,"end":7912.534,"text":"那我是說當然台積電的價格當然現在有一些就是說好像這個Intel會有一些拿到一些訂單嘛不過你也看到一些相關的報導包括華爾街他們報導他說那個量也很少事實上不具有對台積電的威脅性"},{"start":7913.354,"end":7932.729,"text":"所以就是說台積電現在領先全球的這樣子的一個先進的技術製程是沒有辦法被取代的再來就是你認為我們不可能就是整個供應鏈都移到美國去是嗎"},{"start":7933.91,"end":7956.927,"text":"當然不可能 我剛剛提到的那會多少立足台灣是根本對 那會多少那那個只是一個它策略上的一些佈局那會多少那策略上的佈局當然我剛剛提到的就是說我們是被動的廠商他有那樣的意願有那樣的需求的時候我們被動的審查他會不會有國安的疑慮或者是對我們整個產業上的衝擊我們做這樣的審查 對那"},{"start":7961.738,"end":7978.048,"text":"你認為會多少呢?會多少?多少這個當然要台積電他自己決定啊所以也不確定?對,因為他提出來我們才能夠判斷說他這樣的狀況是不是對我們國家會有這個不利的衝擊這樣的情況是會超過3000億嗎?"},{"start":7984.784,"end":8010.522,"text":"這個台積電沒有公布我們也沒有辦法去知道這件事情所以現在還沒有辦法確定嗎因為台積電現在公布的就是1650億美金那會不會超過3000億這個我沒有辦法回答我沒有辦法幫台積電回答所以你也沒有辦法確定而且我也不是董事"},{"start":8012.379,"end":8028.674,"text":"所以要問國發會囉葉主委你那天跟他去美國你沒問他他不敢跟你講他可能也不便回答因為台積電他有專任的發言人制度嘛這個還是"},{"start":8030.182,"end":8058.05,"text":"好 那再來就是我們知道說就是台糖他的這個蘭花是要在美國設立生產 接力生產嗎但是因應農業部的 農業部他們有一些相關計畫 是不是那信保基金有要協助嗎目前我們台糖是沒有跟這接觸 因為那個"},{"start":8059.231,"end":8077.045,"text":"融匯部他是想就是說跟那個南華協會他們一個生產基地之類的信保基金他所開放的這個海外投資申請裡面當然除了傳產以外有沒有包含這個部分"},{"start":8077.867,"end":8104.267,"text":"因為這個有點像農業又有點像產業這算不算報告委員 這個我們不想因為台糖目前都沒有跟這些貸款要去做事因為目前都是用自有的資金而且這個是蘭花協會他們組一個公司要去那邊做生產的工作那如果中小型的呢中小型的蘭花業者他們想要到海外進行接地生產這算不算 部長這算嗎"},{"start":8108.385,"end":8122.125,"text":"因為農業部應該有相關的這個計畫在支持他們海外布局的一些相關的政策啦所以 信保基金部因為農業它本身有信用保證的機制農業部本來就有"},{"start":8124.868,"end":8143.913,"text":"所以台糖沒有跟信保基金申請那未來就是說關於就是蘭花的部分進到美國去的這個生產基地那也算在農業部裡面不算在經濟部裡面因為台糖他只是提供那個場域啦提供那個場域給這個蘭花協會他們"},{"start":8146.734,"end":8174.763,"text":"就是等於租給他們因為這涉及到未來你看在那個特別預算裡面有一些在關稅的補貼裡面有沒有因為這涉及到兩邊的到底是算在哪一個部分那個應該是農業部的主要是以南花的企業為主好那如果早期發電呢早期發電我想要請問的台湯是不是有早期發電"},{"start":8175.888,"end":8201.939,"text":"有 那你們廠區發電做了怎麼樣我們最典型的是那個屏東東海峰的那個矽石廠裡面那這個得到英國認證的全世界第一個被認證是非常ok的當然因為我們那邊的養豬的數量還不是那麼多那要一定的量才會balance那目前還是處於虧損狀況但是你有沒有偷牌"},{"start":8202.759,"end":8226.731,"text":"喔 泰坦不敢偷牌喔 偷牌不得了喔他那個...那個我是一個...所以你知道你有沒有偷牌是不是至少我們...我們要去檢查都沒有 好 OK但目前所至沒有人敢偷牌 因為偷牌抓到他工作都沒有了 退休金什麼都沒有沒有一個人會負擔這樣的情況這是天大的地大的事情喔 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝謝宜鳳委員"},{"start":8233.851,"end":8255.447,"text":"待會鄭天才委員質詢完畢後休息8分鐘接下來我們有請鄭天才委員質詢主席有請台堂公司董事長有請台堂吳董事長吳董事長"},{"start":8263.732,"end":8290.683,"text":"我們先看這個台糖的前身就是日本蛛絲會社那日本當初成立蛛絲會社以花蓮台東來講就是將很多的我們原住民的土地變成日本蛛絲會社的土地然後台灣光復之後"},{"start":8291.944,"end":8319.044,"text":"這個土地帶往台塘日本日本株式會社或是日本這個沒有把這個也無法把這個土地帶回日本但是呢行政院成立了台塘台灣塘業監理委員會然後後來也就成立了台塘公司所以也就將這個這些土地這個行政院發布了這個"},{"start":8321.098,"end":8348.92,"text":"收戶區第一位產業處理辦法就將這些日本知識會社的土地全部移給這個台糖公司成為台糖公司的土地有這樣的一個歷史背景所以後來我們很多的鄉親就要跟台糖成豬自己的土地"},{"start":8350.066,"end":8374.963,"text":"被拿走了然後還要成租然後還要繳租金所以當初啊第一次的租業就是35年5月1號35年5月1號所以一直繳租金當台灣省政府時代我過去在台灣省政府服務曾經也跟台糖協調所以當時有這個"},{"start":8378.206,"end":8402.277,"text":"增編為原住民保留地後來經審之後第一次是在95年行政院核定將台塘的原住民使用的土地符合增花邊原住民保留地的這個架構由人民會架構我那時候是在人民會擔任副主委常務副主委"},{"start":8403.629,"end":8426.717,"text":"然後第二次架構112年7月27號第二次架構當然如果省政府不算的話就行政院來講是第二次我們看這個行政院的函行政院函裡面原則同意並照國家發展委員會審議意見辦理我們現在談這個國發會的審議意見"},{"start":8435.04,"end":8458.908,"text":"國發會審議的意見在瓜福二那邊特別提到因為真化邊原住民保留地從過去台灣省政府時代76年開始調查然後77年決定只要是能夠證明77年2月1號以前原住民就使用祖先的土地"},{"start":8459.901,"end":8486.518,"text":"就可以增化編維研作品保留地這是當時的一個所以國發會也依這個特別提到7721因為上次我們第一次第二次架構都是用35年以前那個之後的有一部分也有架構但是我們現在國發會就特別提到7721以前只要符合"},{"start":8487.878,"end":8510.92,"text":"台灣省政府時代所定的祖先留下來的土地可以證明的都可以所以就以7721所以這個部分要請台湯公司把它整個只要是原住民有成租的或者是有佔用的"},{"start":8511.84,"end":8539.161,"text":"你把這些土地還沒有被園民會架構增變為原住民保留地的全部把它拿出來給這個把土地的地段地號還有誰使用這個土地誰承租誰佔用這個土地給園民會 園民會會透過他的增化變原住民保留地的程序去調查 去了解"},{"start":8540.576,"end":8566.294,"text":"這樣的話就可以繼續在辦理行政院所核定的第三次的架構這是國發會所交辦的一個任務所以這個部分我本席也曾經質詢過在114年 去年也質詢了所以這個部分不曉得我們的同仁有沒有新的進度"},{"start":8568.502,"end":8593.508,"text":"誒 報告委員齁 那個 當然上次也 也那個該 該被降官是反原住民的大概都 都會處理 但是我們一定會遵照這個 我們沒有問題來做這樣的那個處理齁 那當初當然原住民保留地的地方 還有有些地方齁 我家在仲田 隔壁就台南的土地一點點而已 那為什麼勒 因為當初齁"},{"start":8594.568,"end":8618.093,"text":"政府要徵收那個要納稅很多人都不要去納稅因為那時候的那個收入很低嘛每人都要繳稅大家都不要那不要讓有一些政府就台糖就被台糖去繳稅那變成台糖的土地那所以這個有歷史的背景那這個當然那個台糖也肩負的就是說"},{"start":8618.683,"end":8626.803,"text":"那個繳稅然後看幫政府看管土地的功能啊謝謝那我們一定會遵照那個相關的"},{"start":8628.464,"end":8656.383,"text":"對那個董事長你講的是一小部分重點是重點就是說國發會已經寫得很明確只要7721以前使用祖先的土地到現在無論是出租的或是佔用的都希望能夠透過振發變成人民保育地當然就是要去演命會還是要去架構那演命會要去釐清所以你們必須你們的責任"},{"start":8658.224,"end":8685.751,"text":"就是依國發會的意見把這些符合這個條件的全部給人民會 人民會去了解報告委員 我們是有這樣做現在有簽了二七案但是我們會繼續再處理是有在進行的 謝謝這個部分要請台糖公司繼續加油但是很重要的"},{"start":8687.41,"end":8695.402,"text":"這裡面之所以一直會爭執有時候會拖很久你們台堂一直會強調要試駕 要用試駕"},{"start":8699.662,"end":8726.232,"text":"過去這個第一次的時候九十幾年第一次的時候是用公告限制公告限制現在我們都是按照公告限制不是按照市價喔我知道這個董事長如果從我剛才就這個整個台塘起的這個土地你們是賺很多啦為什麼呢第一個本來就不是你買的"},{"start":8727.605,"end":8747.059,"text":"不是你台糖公司,一個公司通常土地都是自己買的,對不對?台糖公司的土地不是買的,是政府一個辦法把它直接就交給你,這是第一個。第二,我們的鄉親自己的土地,"},{"start":8748.089,"end":8775.393,"text":"然後還要繳租約繳了幾十年的租約從民國35年開始一直繳租約我們要花很多年力那個我知道但是畢竟你你拿到的是租金那個董事長你可能不是很清楚之所以可以真化編寶的地事實上我們的鄉親因為當初是一整片"},{"start":8776.809,"end":8790.682,"text":"日本的時候是一整片事實上我們的鄉親的住家在那邊的或是自行耕種的這些自從台糖接收以後也一樣繼續使用"},{"start":8792.683,"end":8806.882,"text":"這才會有成豬才會有成豬才會繳租約所以事實上是他自己使用在管理你們只不過是繳收租金所以這個部分"},{"start":8807.563,"end":8834.528,"text":"不要太在意說我有花很多的錢沒有沒有所以這部分我們就依相關的規定來辦理好不好好謝謝委員以後不要再討論什麼市價了沒有沒有按照過去的案例公告限值對我們都是遵照公告限值對對對對謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝吳董事長我們現在休息兩分鐘"},{"start":8845.776,"end":8846.557,"text":"哦 你要配"},{"start":8867.191,"end":8869.634,"text":"哦,对,对,对,对。"},{"start":8883.965,"end":8887.549,"text":"哇,這咖啡好醉喔,風景好醉喔"},{"start":8903.924,"end":8915.767,"text":"叫我卡住了他怕你撞到他我以為你跟當時的地方沒有了我們現在的分歧啊因為階段的改善第二階段的改善讓我們在體育上活動中進一步好OK 再一次"},{"start":8932.023,"end":8948.793,"text":"歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐~~歐"},{"start":8967.079,"end":8967.74,"text":"三路三路"},{"start":8979.33,"end":8982.892,"text":"哎呀,我出鏡王幹什麼?哎呀,我出鏡王幹什麼?有同意嗎?"},{"start":9008.285,"end":9034.047,"text":"你同意啊 還有什麼要討論我同意 經貿組織 國民局 經貿組織 教育平台以外的 以外的組織 每一個組織都沒有 完全沒有所以你要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要 要"},{"start":9043.022,"end":9044.543,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":9069.894,"end":9070.235,"text":"好,我們來試試看"},{"start":9087.824,"end":9095.933,"text":"我還沒吃東西,我還沒吃東西,我還沒吃東西,我還沒吃東西,我還沒吃東西,我還沒吃東西,我還沒吃東西,"},{"start":9104.983,"end":9109.268,"text":"所以現在大概像這樣大概都OK啦至少學習對我們大家比較了解一點"},{"start":9121.964,"end":9125.268,"text":"這間廟要蓋住,要處理,處理,這間廟要蓋住,處理,處理不在當時,處理要怎麼看?"},{"start":9140.18,"end":9140.34,"text":"記者 記者 記者 記者"},{"start":9156.778,"end":9163.166,"text":"自動愛拜祖靈 宣傳愛拜祖靈祖靈要在基督御聖中心演繹正常經驗以保護予神聖神的恩公愛拜祖靈"},{"start":9174.941,"end":9177.803,"text":"我現在已經很累了我現在已經很累了我現在已經很累了"},{"start":9339.585,"end":9366.835,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會接下來有請賴慧玟委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請台糖那個續職部執行長台糖吳董對台糖公司續職部執行長董事長你請回你請回"},{"start":9369.895,"end":9387.605,"text":"市長我想這個問題那個請問你最清楚那就是說我要跟你探討的這個議題其實一直都是重複被探討就是台糖的農業循環養豬場的一個改建一延再延"},{"start":9388.906,"end":9409.64,"text":"延盪的一個進度我們很明顯看到就是說台糖的龍躍循環養豬場他的投資一個計畫從107年啟動我們希望希望就是說這13座可以就是投資了124億那目前你的進度到哪裡那我想聽聽看經過了8年"},{"start":9412.121,"end":9436.459,"text":"來 執行長有沒有了解是 謝謝委員目前的進度是我們到今年都已經把那個肉出廠的部分都已經有進駐飼養到今年底之前應該可以全部完工那明年全力推進在後年會恢復到我們計畫的飼養量後年會恢復到那個你們計畫的飼養量來 我們看一下"},{"start":9440.896,"end":9454.403,"text":"這個養豬場跳票在跳票2024年宴會裡頭我執行經濟部行政院院長台堂回顧說這一個在2024年7月的第一期這六座豬場統包的工程全數會進行飼養"},{"start":9457.426,"end":9473.124,"text":"如何跳票第二期七座的豬場在2024年那個年底飼養也跳票好相對於就是說相關的一個進度我們甚至看到了就是說像你現在這樣子回應我"},{"start":9474.335,"end":9485.646,"text":"在未來他可以如期的飼養為什麼我們不要真正的去面對問題你的第二期四座的肉豬場預計在114年4月底完工三座的種豬場你預計在114年6月底前完工可是這個是你在2025年1月13號台糖的恢復"},{"start":9497.757,"end":9513.622,"text":"我們赤字白譯換來的是一再的跳票現在也跳票了你看在今年一月我們有一個委員高雄的委員也是在質問這一個問題執行長你還是要告訴我這樣的一個答案嗎"},{"start":9515.383,"end":9526.655,"text":"經濟部長在這個地方 你的董事長在這個地方那你如何來督促這一個這一個本來是要養豬的 結果豬豬變成豬肉怎麼辦啊 我們要面對問題啊"},{"start":9530.879,"end":9553.897,"text":"我們要面對問題 我們不要去逃避問題你的包商擺爛那我們台談不能消極啊 這個是一個國家級的一個產業如果我們淪為這樣子惡性的一個循環你現在還沒有驗收收場的 還有葉梅一二 斗六 鹿草 南景 善化還有南沙 還有401 402你還要先處一種大小一跟二那怎麼辦呢驗收延宕"},{"start":9559.301,"end":9575.818,"text":"它其實不是單純的工程的一個進度問題你包商擺爛 你台廠消極的不監督 年代的導致你下游的廠商你款項卡關啦 你資金斷吹你這個形成產業鏈惡性的一個循環 你現在給我捏多少錢啊"},{"start":9578.544,"end":9601.998,"text":"包委員我們目前的進度基本上都是給依照工程進度給那一起的同胞商大概都會到70幾%你如果說按照進度給你已經給了70幾%的工程費了那為什麼大家一定要驗收啊驗收才可以領到後面的尾數款啊那為什麼就是說一個124"},{"start":9605.059,"end":9631.049,"text":"124億的重大工程的投資你不應該淪為一個沒有責任沒有進度沒有管理的工程的一個災難我們怎麼樣去處理這些問題呢那你的法律是在哪裡呢台堂的法律是有沒有提供你們什麼樣的一個建議你延宕了這麼久那我希望我希望這個我也是收集了很多很多的一個資料就是說有沒有機會減價驗收"},{"start":9633.51,"end":9644.341,"text":"因為你沒有驗收的話 他拿不到畜牧登記證嘛你就沒辦法吃嘛你不要再用當初合約的那一個標準來驗收有沒有機會這樣子做呢你們的法律是有沒有做過這樣的一個討論呢執行長我來"},{"start":9652.328,"end":9668.112,"text":"這個流程的部分我們已經有做過評估剛剛您說的減價驗收依照公共工程採購法我們在還沒有驗收這個動作之前我們不可以提出減價驗收這個字眼出來那基本上"},{"start":9668.992,"end":9681.619,"text":"我們也沒有消極帶多或者把它當成蚊子管我們能夠用的空間我們已經提早使用市長我跟你講你這個政府採購法第72條你說還沒有驗收以前你不能先提出減價驗收"},{"start":9683.78,"end":9705.112,"text":"你可能要再回去了解一下我跟你講如果你還是一直堅持這樣的一個態度的話這個東西是無解的是無解的124億這怎麼去延續了兩任的董事長現在已經是第三任的董事長為什麼我不讓董事長上來這個沒有董事長的事情"},{"start":9706.36,"end":9733.399,"text":"可是你怎麼監督他你的責任重大是所以我在這裡要求就是說台廠在一個月內提出這個13座豬場 豬場的一個進度跟驗收的一個期程不能再消極的敷衍了那你清楚的交代每一個廠他的卡關的原因缺失的一個項目責任的一個歸屬跟正式驗收的一個啟用時程不要再把這個"},{"start":9734.9,"end":9761.261,"text":"講得這麼好聽 我跟你講 再讓你兩年 你也沒辦法嚴修啦那我也希望台糖繼續啟動這個理業管理專案的一個機制你要啟動理業管理專案的一個機制啊 對那些消極代工或是理業不利的一個承包商你要依法就責啊我們是吃了慢虧啊你這個大同公司這麼大你不是只有做電鍋啊 你的股票上市啊 怎麼他來欺負我們台糖"},{"start":9764.644,"end":9778.935,"text":"那你這個山水林公司工程公司他的資本額也三四十億都是一個非常大的一個公司沒有沒辦法改革的工程問題就是看我們自己台廠的一個態度"},{"start":9779.455,"end":9806.555,"text":"我覺得限期改善才華球場還有啟動替代的方案不要再拖了那台糖跟經濟部應該提出產業的一個銜接的方案不要讓工程跟驗收不斷的一個延宕拖垮下游的廠商我們不希望看到台灣的養豬產業現代化升級一再的空轉好不好 執行長那個一個業內提出這樣的一個計畫給本席是 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":9812.261,"end":9813.222,"text":"首先邀請經濟部貢部長"},{"start":9840.602,"end":9858.678,"text":"陳偉豪總部長好今天這兩家公司台灣電力公司、台灣糖業公司剛好都是80大壽這是好日子不過我進來看一看本來要說這80歲我們要好好求職但是我看到"},{"start":9859.744,"end":9883.687,"text":"我們鞏固長你們的作為好像忠友也是忠友好像也是忠友也是 三家都是巴士到時候都是好事啊但是我看到你們作為我實在不好意思也不敢公為來清楚你們我講一個簡單的問題我們以小觀大你那個logo為什麼要去改是不是你下的指令"},{"start":9884.948,"end":9892.55,"text":"我那時候沒有在經濟部沒有 你沒有下指令 請我們的台電董事長上來 麻煩一下董事長你很優秀 這個你有沒有下指令下指令說把台灣電力公司的LOGO改為台灣的LOGO電腦打一打能出來 你們花了96萬還是98萬"},{"start":9914.701,"end":9935.643,"text":"來跟我講你到底誰下的一個我跟委員報告第一個就是以台電公司來講我們現在商標登記兩個都在沒有替換你說什麼我的商標登記兩個都在就是原來的跟新的都在所以我要跟委員報告第一個是它並存第二個是我跟委員報告你在問這個事情"},{"start":9937.265,"end":9963.054,"text":"那那個2023年的時候其實是次長兼董事長我是覺得你是做能力大事人你今天的說法自然其說我不相信為什麼以小班大從這一點你們這些政務官不是你們台電公司的專業人員都被你們這些政務官這樣折磨你有沒有看到王總經理下台的時候背著這樣子在走"},{"start":9964.354,"end":9990.189,"text":"這幾年啊真的別說我為什麼我確定把logo拿出來當然有人在講但是有一點我們核四當初啊會合的時候說核電廠我們要備用我記得看了一個新聞晚上的時候會顯示執政黨的威武雄壯把那個還沒用的核燃料棒晚上印出去印回美國件價折送"},{"start":9991.689,"end":10012.016,"text":"這是很誇張的這個委員報告立法院有做了一個決議要我們把展亮棒送出去哪一個時候是國民黨立委人士比較多還是民進黨立委人士比較多你心中有定見嘛你這麼優秀的"},{"start":10013.846,"end":10026.192,"text":"這件事實在講我覺得很悲哀不然我教你一樣你會出名你把台灣電力公司改為日本台灣Power Company這樣你就出名了"},{"start":10032.096,"end":10056.945,"text":"不要去做那些小事啦,沒有意義,好看嘛!你沒下去做,大家是害怕死的好好的檢討一下,好不好再來,前部長你沒有參與喔,好讓你回去一下當時你不要這樣啊,這樣難看啦,真的講全個台灣人都看不過去啊"},{"start":10058.032,"end":10084.431,"text":"好不好,還有那個王總經理真的這幾年任來任願是要好好,部長你比安妮要好好照顧人家那個實在是奉公守法忍辱負重達成執政黨的目標雖然不喜歡做,也要把它完成真的要好好的照顧一下看他在交接的時候有時候心裡也難過啦好,新任的郭柯其他的回收"},{"start":10089.564,"end":10105.479,"text":"我看你教這個典禮裡面,說得很好啦你現在八十大壽,你是覺得你垂垂老移還是你才一定要息事待發?郭總統你的責任很重大,你有能力的人我看過你經歷,我們也接觸了"},{"start":10108.021,"end":10125.756,"text":"幾次了 都是很有擔當 很有負責任的 要呈現其後我跟委員報告台電公司當然面對了非常多的挑戰那我也有特別說明就是說台電其實現在整個同仁平均年齡也年輕那其實剛才包含你問到的一些問題"},{"start":10127.162,"end":10155.815,"text":"包括我想說 譬如這張啦 委員你三月之內兩年折合完就斷了那個是變態苦笑的我要跟委員報告第一個就是台電公司所有的表現董事長要蓋瓜負責任這個絕對是前提但我們很多同仁也做了很多新的改變董事長也不能押忍這些事所以我很少去刪你們預算到前一段時間我完全同意我跟你說喔 你現在做的"},{"start":10156.235,"end":10165.645,"text":"在這個時代裡面我們郭總統有一句話我很欣賞也要鼓勵你你說是穩定供電還有電網的強韌性"},{"start":10167.864,"end":10192.737,"text":"那這裡面後面又帶了一句話電力由我們傳統的公共服務業已經進步成為國家發展及產業競爭力的一個關鍵戰略支援變成也是城市競爭力的重要基石張十六總經理您在講話我都很仔細看你這個轉變你也能轉變起來"},{"start":10195.882,"end":10222.73,"text":"不過按我的說法,其實現在電力很重要你們花一千億,撩一千億錢大家容然知識,就是我們要有競爭力,永遠進步所以你80歲,等於現在你來接這個總經理跟董事長是在轉變的時候,變成一個戰略書院啊當然這裡面有很多種電力就是國力,也是城市的一個競爭力"},{"start":10224.61,"end":10242.775,"text":"淨零排碳你們重要啦我看這世界亂到最後也不曉得會不會淨零排碳再來半導體及AI發展這個是你們要面對的問題再來通膨及聯合能源的價格波動這你都要注意那我現在請教"},{"start":10244.712,"end":10269.653,"text":"所以以後的AI酸溢中心就是AIDC的酸溢中心最好離電廠5公里到10公里之間你會推展這個計畫你說北部不適宜沒有我沒有說北部全部不適宜我在電廠周邊其實是我們可以去支持的部長沒有請你上台"},{"start":10271.007,"end":10288.869,"text":"我告訴你電廠隔壁你既然提出來你真的有作為應該在電廠所在地的話跟在地的縣政府合作一下去開闢一片天地現在大家要去做不敢做你到現在建設部有同意嗎你台電有同意嗎"},{"start":10289.77,"end":10305.378,"text":"大家會怕那有幾個電廠幾乎都在比較邊緣邊壁的地方你應該好好去規劃一下真的把台灣的AI算力中心把它建立起來你要這樣做嗎不然你自己吹公公的我相信"},{"start":10307.247,"end":10335.104,"text":"那個我跟委員報告這件事情是這樣台電會提供基礎的電網在電廠旁邊我們工作起來會比較有效率而且會比較穩定那至於說政府各級政府中央政府也好地方政府也好在規劃這個未來的算力中心或是算力服務中心怎麼樣子設置這個我們只要地方政府有提出找台電台電就會去跟他們進行討論我只是說你有這樣過時阿部長"},{"start":10337.965,"end":10355.939,"text":"報告部長,昨天看了一下,如果地方提出這樣AI算力延期的專機,你要不要來支持?在電廠隔壁不要別的地方,它靠海,暖風一吹的時候,散熱又更快。"},{"start":10358.12,"end":10386.395,"text":"就是AI算力中心要分成幾個面向來看第一個他確定有需求面他可以應用那這個當然廠商設計者他們要去思考的那如果在地的政府可以用這些算力那是最好那你不要自己選嗎?我現在要吃這裡另外就是供給端供給端剛剛提到的要跟電力比較靠近那個地方是比較好的因為他不用拉長很長的線的話這個可能電力上的一些損失"},{"start":10387.815,"end":10416.595,"text":"對 那電網也比較安全啦這個算力中心也比較穩固啦因為我看主席在那邊了我們電源政府要做 我自己一組來 要來搞分析器另外你要注意一個現象AI電力算力商用電很多那是公共投資的法他們如果要用台電的電費的話你們要提高啊不然百姓很苦 你要注意這個問題喔以前在國外發生的 我是先提醒"},{"start":10417.655,"end":10423.197,"text":"用電大戶本來它的價錢就比較高這個規劃繼續的牟利現在電力變成國力了郭總經理笑一下嘛 當總經理的人笑一下 滿懷信心好不好好 謝謝來我再問一下台廠"},{"start":10451.056,"end":10461.026,"text":"董事長你好我看你在今日的時候八十週年說上山下海台塘的土地牛跑遍不然我不談這個問題剛剛賴會委員談這個問題那個問執行長你過來一下請過來一下"},{"start":10473.749,"end":10494.826,"text":"董事長這個人才要好好宅配剛剛說要減價驗收減價驗收我是覺得你水聯市的那種養殖場你全部功虧一簣因為當時在10號裡面發生了很多問題他們不敢驗收我跟你提醒這件事情是很嚴重的錯誤"},{"start":10496.956,"end":10522.141,"text":"南部的太厲害了那個手腳太多了都不能正常的讓那些存包商正常來做生意我只安心一點你要選交易說一定要符合標準不是我不要我要你找他幹什麼還好他堅持立場因為我大概了解這個過程我只要堅持原則不然你這個養豬我很自信"},{"start":10523.001,"end":10537.758,"text":"我很多養殖界的朋友,我從基層做起,你們這樣下去又不會賺錢,人家的民間大家就賺大錢,大家看養殖場都是變質的,只有你財產都是為了國家穩定,我看不習慣。"},{"start":10539.159,"end":10567.884,"text":"真的要改進啦有做事的人要支持啦好不好本來要跟你添草很多已經時間超過了改天再好好的討論這一些好的人才實際在座的人覺得要把這個水靈式的養殖場要弄好你一定要有幾個堅持的原則現在那不一樣來對以前啊你們的人員手腳一直很多包商做的都怕"},{"start":10569.432,"end":10583.677,"text":"我只是跟你暗示一下,不然清災就崩潰,不然你打整個都沒有,那要讓民間企業,讓民間去經營,再奔你自己去經營,大家又會嘆息,好謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員,謝謝董事長好,接下來我們有請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":10599.757,"end":10626.917,"text":"謝謝主席 請各位先進有請部長跟董事長兩位一起好嗎台電的台電 曾董我今天在兩位長官兩位長官好我特別整理了一個資料你們跟外界廠商有些爭議第一個 現在還在炒"},{"start":10628.038,"end":10647.04,"text":"美商和泰他指引你們圖利特定廠商因為他合一合二的室內乾燥設施都是他做的和善廟飆到美商的他就幫你碰碰球這樣是第一個案子第二個案子"},{"start":10649.863,"end":10676.388,"text":"離風電這個深微底下的負微城南台電離岸風電二期工程台電同意追加55.6億這個是最有利標第三個台中通宵海底輸電線管線工程最有利標你看第二個案子跟第三個案子都是先搶到標再加價一加都是五六十億五六十億"},{"start":10677.208,"end":10698.253,"text":"不可謂不多啊這個有鬼啊 部長啊這裡面有鬼啊 部長你要講一下嗎怎麼會都這樣報告委員 所有的所有都是按照合約兩兆的合約來辦為什麼你要追加預算追加這麼多沒有 那因為合約裡面本來就有允許不可抗力運輸的時候來來來 你這樣講 報告委員這顆是總共預算多少總共預算多少"},{"start":10704.934,"end":10727.165,"text":"這個是55億是公共工程委員會調解的債務不是這個海淀當商變統一曾董事長你要講一下這個護衛他總工程多少錢五百多億五百多億追加10%再來看通宵總預算多少"},{"start":10730.398,"end":10755.197,"text":"那我先跟委員報告沒有追加喔 這個沒有追加這不是得票以後追加 這個跟前面你講的事情完全不一樣這是採購的時候的價格我要這樣講 這個是採購 因為我們做可言第二個案子 剛才那個就是追加 怎麼不是呢上面那個是 這個不是 下面這個沒有第三個不是"},{"start":10757.56,"end":10766.614,"text":"我要跟你強調這個啊前面那個是因子啦齁今天你們好好去這社會觀感不好啦你們又在大手戴槍還產生這樣子結果你們對我們社區摳門摳到面"},{"start":10773.786,"end":10778.268,"text":"我跟你講 我的選區裡面109年到114年 總共248支的電線桿109年是什麼意思 6年前他們就去匯桿了可以做喔 要做喔 地下化 美化市容 很好你們去做喔 結果呢"},{"start":10793.929,"end":10809.982,"text":"六年前到現在為止擺爛總共兩百四十八次這個東西你們前面有錢給人家一直追加啊這就說要沒錢啊因為立法會不跟你爭資啊你們今年還賺了去年還賺了七百多億結果因為這個事情"},{"start":10812.063,"end":10815.485,"text":"部長你聽好啊 我再跟你強調一遍部長啊盯著我們總經理每次來這裡就給我這樣子滿足跑火車沒問題啊 沒問題啊什麼之類的 結果都有問題到現在為止到現在為止248隻的電線幹地下化的工程通通在延盪你講一下 來"},{"start":10835.034,"end":10844.678,"text":"沒有 我跟委員報告啦齁 你不提前面的事講簡單一點 地下化事務 台電都還是積極在做什麼都沒有做 我停擺啊 什麼都停擺啊我請同仁拿數字去跟你們報告總經理講 總經理講一下副總 來 我們請副總講"},{"start":10856.163,"end":10860.285,"text":"文山區大概也是這幾年下地最多的一個區啦109年到現在六年我們已經完成了37件這幾年完成37件都是在委員的選區裡面啦這當然也感謝委員都一直在協助但是"},{"start":10880.311,"end":10894.499,"text":"因為最近坦白講是用戶用電的案件非常多所以一些施工量 因為人家要用電的 要開沒我們的生活難不是啦你們現在是噴來一個問題土方漲價啦 沒有人要飆啦這問題你們也不該管土方的問題是最大問題 你都沒有進入狀況"},{"start":10901.863,"end":10918.073,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告土方 土方漲了幾倍啊大台北地區土方的價格 土方很嚴重沒有人要買台電甚至自己在想辦法解決這個裡面解決我們很積極在處理 引起很多民怨你們這樣製造知道嗎我們都說台電賭不錯啦台電利潤不要傷好啦 我們都不動台電要給你積極 結果"},{"start":10932.201,"end":10936.903,"text":"欸 你們說因為立法院要政治案不給通過 所以通通停擺威脅我們咧 怎麼會這樣子呢我這樣講齁 那個執行的量拿來對照 你大概就會清楚喔這講到通通停擺就沒有248隻啦停擺是停擺248隻我們做的就不加嘛 我們其實剛剛講的已經完成37案了"},{"start":10957.79,"end":10968.298,"text":"我坦白說我坦白說你那個地方有些地方比方說你遇到同學不讓上的東西我們想盡辦法都在解決現在最大的問題我的了解最大的問題是土方因為你要標出去沒有人要標這麼解決你告訴我"},{"start":10978.286,"end":11003.321,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實國土署有公布了四個解決的方案那其中還有一項包括 家駕啊前面的可以追家的 為什麼這裡不能追家的台電對於家駕這件事也非常審慎所以如果我們有可能主要是這樣子 我們這邊的土方如果最後去的話是有地方去的就台北港是可以去 但是中間要有站制站制的部分台電自己都在想辦法"},{"start":11005,"end":11017.904,"text":"找可以暫置的地方供給這些工程的單位能夠在土方能夠先暫置然後不要為惡意抬價你實話實話給我提一個解決方案我們請我們副總去說明好不好三個月可以嗎 三個月給我解決方案兩個月兩個月解決方案"},{"start":11030.988,"end":11037.43,"text":"要提給我 要做得到啊因為我跟你講 部長跟董事長這個副總區認真 人也不錯但是常常南村跑火車開會的時候都答應 結果都沒有做"},{"start":11045.913,"end":11047.494,"text":"他沒做 他做不到其實你剛才都把理由講出來了我開了好幾次的協調會"},{"start":11068.767,"end":11072.93,"text":"好啦 注重執行令 OK好 謝謝賴世寶委員接下來有請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":11099.307,"end":11115.542,"text":"主席 再讓我先進 列席的政務機關長官員 會長 公共夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們台堂的吳董事長以及台堂的砂糖事業部 蓄質事業部兩位陳執行長 溫時行長以及環境保護處的鍾處長和農業經營處的張處長好 請三官人一起上"},{"start":11124.495,"end":11140.368,"text":"喂 董事長好 董事長 早前你在做高雄69個媒體的封面沒有有有喔 有我這次很厲害 這次晉州刊 晉州刊一向沒有好事你是獲利創新高啊 74億啊請問董事長 這怎麼來的"},{"start":11144.298,"end":11166.243,"text":"這都是同仁在持續的努力所得到的結果講很場面啦來你們有七個事業部啦你告訴我是哪些事業部賺錢哪些事業部賠錢事業部像砂糖企業是Balance砂糖Balance喔最賺錢的是哪一個油瓶"},{"start":11167.003,"end":11178.019,"text":"油品最賺錢加油站啦齁對阿那個序值勒序值因為在改建嘛改建那個不算好來阿生物科技勒藍花欸藍花阿精緻農業勒"},{"start":11179.437,"end":11208.096,"text":"金字塔會賺錢啊做賺錢 加油賺錢那台糖不要叫台糖了嘛 叫台花嘛叫台油嘛我們花卉是虧錢的花卉虧錢 那就叫台油囉油粉加最多啊我們是要diversify我先講一下啦其實我要看你們帳面說是賺72億啦其實我看一下你給我們的報告是60億不管60億還是70億 那是其次來我們看一下你在媒體上好像說一公斤的砂糖只能賣36"},{"start":11209.537,"end":11229.192,"text":"成本要四十二賣一頓大概就要賠他七八千塊請問為什麼台糖要做糖跟委員報告糖是戰略物資很好戰略物資我們部長一直在戰略物資民營公司會生產嗎啊了解的不會生產啦民營公司啦台糖是什麼"},{"start":11230.185,"end":11256.844,"text":"不是台糖是國營事業嘛所以國營事業戰略物資你要優先生產嘛對好來我們來看一下那台糖的糖會了錢來那你的事業責任糧食安全跟獲利哪個比較重要我想那個因為我們是國營事業齁那做一個事業體的話總是要有一些盈利對啦我告訴你台糖賺多少錢來往下看齁"},{"start":11257.844,"end":11280.396,"text":"台糖的總資產6600多億其實我看你們全部的資產如果拿去寄銀行還一年可以收到116億的利息你不管是賺60億還是賺74億其實你的業外收入是50億台糖的重點賣了幾得好但是重點不是賺錢要賺錢把你們資產拿去賣一賣賺的錢還比較多 是不是這樣子"},{"start":11280.976,"end":11308.36,"text":"但是土地如果賣一賣以後就沒有了你拿去做信託開發也很好啊所以我要說的是說目前台糖它雖然是一個公司不能賠錢但是公司的企業使命它有考慮的對不對要配合政策推動讓社會進步往下看那剛剛講到的黃小玉我們平常人吃的黃小玉多還是其他動物吃的黃小玉多台灣進口的黃小玉"},{"start":11309.79,"end":11331.605,"text":"大部分是誰吃掉了大部分都是動物啊動物吃掉了嘛但是一旦在我延燒剛剛說的石油來不來哇 這很重要黃小玉進不來飼料就會跟著漲好 往下看那請問我們這些農產品黃小玉是未來進口是要給人吃的比較重要還是給動物吃的比較重要報告委員給動物吃了以後還是要給人吃啊"},{"start":11332.709,"end":11346.401,"text":"所以一樣對 說得很好好 沒有錯所以我們的續產是需要這些原料的但是往下看其實食品給人吃豬可以吃什麼吃動物性的循環原料你同不同意"},{"start":11348.995,"end":11369.68,"text":"某些是可以的 某些是可以的 告訴你農業部已經准了過去我們的飼料有植物性飼料 動物性飼料 補助飼料 配合飼料現在飼料除於蓄勤的屠宰下繳要動物性廢紮都已經可以作為循環原料的飼料 你知道吧對很知道 那請問台廠有沒有台廠有沒有這個加工廠"},{"start":11372.591,"end":11389.532,"text":"我們加工廠是對食品的有食品加工廠有續產加工廠嘛你們有做酵母粉嘛有做穀類嘛麥片嘛麥片沒有啦然後你們續產加工廠有安心豬嘛有做肉鬆啊肉酥啊肉乾啊這些等等請問全豬的運用一隻豬啊"},{"start":11390.433,"end":11417.092,"text":"大概有15%是負載下腳料土體的兩成多是豬皮跟豬骨這些都不是消費者會使用的請問你們有沒有開始發展這些循環原料飼料的生產線你們自己有加工廠啊你們有下腳料啊報告委員那前一陣子我們跟台系跟海昌公司就是在亂這一塊很好那就繼續進行怎麼樣我來告訴你為什麼台糖要先往下看"},{"start":11418.424,"end":11426.883,"text":"目前喔 養豬的大縣彰化排第一 屏東排第二嘛那養豬的企業 排場講第二 沒有人敢講第一 對不對"},{"start":11428.526,"end":11454.763,"text":"養豬的頭數不然誰最多養豬的全部頭數目前我們不能說現在啦你們現在在改建嘛對對對對嘛你不要跟我說今年去年啦因為你去你們要改建嘛有幾座有16座嘛對不對總共養滿了可以養幾頭一年大概50萬頭50萬頭我還小看因為有兩輪生產我這邊估計一座同時有18萬頭好這麼龐大的養豬事業有多少的剩餘物跟廢棄物我來先問一下"},{"start":11457.816,"end":11481.977,"text":"有沒有病死豬一定會有嘛是那你們有沒有化製廠目前我們化製廠在廠內是沒有對啊我們是委託人家做但是委託嘛好啦企業責任啦你們是最大的養豬戶結果你們對於自己養的病死豬沒有化製廠現在的化製廠有幾座現在的化製廠加起來呢有10座"},{"start":11484.425,"end":11507.123,"text":"其中四座在屏東啊你認為化智廠是一個嫌惡設施還是喜愛設施它是嫌惡設施嘛認為 對請問你們有幾座農場有二三十座嘛 有五萬公頃嘛這些農場除了自營之外有住人家種毛豆 住人家種鳳梨的住人家種毛豆的附近有社區嗎"},{"start":11508.547,"end":11535.388,"text":"沒有社區啊所以其實台塘自有的農場是非常能夠吸收接受自己養豬所產生的這些必要的相關的事業跟設施你同不同意下一頁是不是這樣子對你們自己有土地嘛而且土地很多旁邊沒有人啊來我告訴你為什麼必死豬啊化製廠為什麼靈異設施我小時候住在鹿港我們家旁邊傳董事長"},{"start":11536.277,"end":11546.453,"text":"隔壁那個肉店喔,他每天都在做肉粥啊喔好喜歡喔,每天都可以聞到豬肉做肉粥,很香的,是不是這樣子那同樣的是豬,為什麼花枝長會臭?為什麼?"},{"start":11550.629,"end":11569.556,"text":"因為溪底下都草啊 才拖到化製廠嘛如果是生鮮的豬進入化製廠 它一樣是做什麼提煉油 提煉骨粉 對不對 會臭嗎 不會草啊所以要怎麼做 不只化製廠如果台塘的養豬場 避死豬有沒有冰歸冰"},{"start":11570.745,"end":11584.191,"text":"有 現在我們都有現在有了嘛 對不對台糖有發現說你們的必死豬用冰櫃冰很多的養豬戶沒有來得及建冰櫃那是不是可以有冷鏈去幫他把它運走 運到化製廠馬上就運走"},{"start":11587.028,"end":11606.924,"text":"冷鏈車 現在化資廠有冷鏈車嗎 沒有 因為民間企業不會投資啊臺房可不可以投資 去經營一個化資廠經營一個物流的 把必死豬從民營的養豬場趕快拖走 拖去化資的 就不會臭這個化資廠就不會零幣設施嘛 董事長 怎麼解決是不是這樣子"},{"start":11607.895,"end":11636.389,"text":"但是我們要評估喔對 當然要評估 今天就是要請你評估它所以我要說的是說 台塘的企業社會責任是什麼你有這麼龐大的養豬場 你卻沒有化製廠你自己有冰櫃 其他的養豬場買不起冰櫃那這個問題誰來解決 叫其他民間養豬戶解決嗎那不可能嘛 往下看所以過去台塘有做一件事情 我小時候住屏東啊我們剛說這甘蔗啊 甘蔗可以生產農業甘蔗大家可以做什麼"},{"start":11639.244,"end":11668.115,"text":"可以做紫薑啊對以前台湯也很聰明啊他們說甘蔗做糖之後甘蔗渣之後做紫薑但是三四十年前的紫薑沒有這個企業的一個概念它空污啊紫薑甘蔗渣怎麼做紫薑先放在池子裡面讓它發酵發酵就變臭臭的時候呢它去做紫薑的時候呢整個屏東市都是台湯的紫薑糖周圍現在台湯還有紫薑場嗎沒有沒有做了嘛但是"},{"start":11669.618,"end":11692.751,"text":"甘蔗紮不能做紫薑嗎 可以啊 要找對的地方 用對的方法 投資設備讓它不要發售 可不可以做得到可以 但是目前有沒有其他的用途對 因為目前台糖的甘蔗紮做紫薑先不能買好因為台灣的甘蔗就比人家貴 那有可能這抓雞會比人家瘦 沒有可能所以我要說的是說 台糖要去思考 你們有那麼大的地"},{"start":11693.411,"end":11699.654,"text":"禁賣產業是你們的企業社會責任你們有那麼多的養豬場有那麼多的加工廠你們做循環原料飼料的工廠你們要對動物的屍體做化製廠你們要研究這些農業加工的剩餘物資早期發電做做有機肥請問一下董事長這是不是你台南的企業社會責任"},{"start":11711.138,"end":11731.463,"text":"我想企業真的我們是容易承擔齁但是像養豬那農業部的他們有一些incentive 一些補助台糖我們所有的農業的生產齁農業部連一塊錢都沒有辦法補助所以我們的生產這個不值得拼啦部長 董事長這個不值得拼的啦你不肯進入包卓剛好而已啦對不對我說你72億 是什麼51C月份收入啦"},{"start":11734.664,"end":11761.441,"text":"對你們那裡做什麼有這種錢我們也不會抱怨啊但是就是說所以不要抱怨也不要拿來炫耀你們不只不能拿政府的補助還要代替政府優先做社會的表散你同不同意我同意但是我們做的很多喔最後請台堂研議將竹子產業研議你們竹子產業優先要投入金麥產業包括循環原料飼料的工廠包括動物屍體的花製廠以及後續環保循環的產業鏈可以承諾嗎"},{"start":11762.382,"end":11762.482,"text":"來部長請上來 部長"},{"start":11771.687,"end":11792.878,"text":"部長台堂貴不貴你管台堂貴不貴你管我們是主管機關是主管機關好董事長已經承諾了接下來的政治責任就是你的責任了所以接下來台堂有沒有善盡他台堂的企業社會責任不是只是看說不賠錢而已不是只看營收的成長而已我希望下次你跟董事長跟部長你們一起上雜誌封面"},{"start":11794.559,"end":11820.454,"text":"說經濟不將台糖改造成一個符合企業社會責任重視環保 帶動農業更新的一個企業好不好報告委員 我們現在本來就有在做 但是我們是實體 對啦 環保本來就是所有的國營事業我講的那三個目標 經濟不可沒督導包括經貿產業 包括循環原料飼料 包括化製廠他們專門會 他剛才提到承諾啦 好 部長謝謝你 謝謝董事長"},{"start":11823.254,"end":11850.664,"text":"不是study啦 交個報告來說明要你們承諾做多少嘛 好不好好 謝謝張嘉碧委員謝謝委員接下來我們有請王紅薇委員質詢好 謝謝主席請部長 龔部長還有台電董事長請龔部長跟曾董事長 謝謝"},{"start":11856.419,"end":11884.855,"text":"好 部長 董事長我們在整個綠能發展裡面之前呢光電業爆發很多的弊案而我們現在離岸風電它整個的風暴不管是外資的撤資或者是我們本土風電業者出現重大財務危機甚至股票要下市的危機這樣的風暴正在整個的擴大中我想"},{"start":11886.414,"end":11898.612,"text":"最近市場非常關心的就是CV能源現在準備在6月23號停止上市那當然它的整個的淨值虧損極為嚴重"},{"start":11901.876,"end":11923.025,"text":"那另外一方面其實在之前我們有一些本土所謂的本土的廠商也陸陸續續發生不管是大幅的裁員也好或者是有下市的危機也好那我想請問一下部長森威能源算不算我們當時的豐電國家隊因為台電公司簽約的對象是富威對"},{"start":11931.789,"end":11947.808,"text":"那深威算不算主要還是富威啊所以現在跟深威切割因為深威他有很多的事業啊他跟台電關係就是主要是富威嘛好 那我想請問合約對象也是富威啊好 那我想請問"},{"start":11949.608,"end":11968.933,"text":"部長承不承認我們現在整個的離岸封店不管是從外資的退出因為這兩天包含外媒也提到也報導到包含CIP跟GPSC也準備退出沒有啦他們三十一三十二他們的封廠才剛剛剛要實施而已 怎麼會退出好 所以這個是而且他們很有可能三十三很可能三十三他們也會投"},{"start":11980.327,"end":11989.671,"text":"所以 什麼叫可能啊?所以我要問 這個是不是假訊息?是不是假訊息?是不是假訊息通過報答?實質狀況不是這樣好 那我想請問部長針對我剛才所講的不管是森微或之前的天立離岸或者是永貫或者是之前陸陸續續的外資相繼的退出台灣的風電市場"},{"start":12006.607,"end":12019.064,"text":"算不算我們的一個我們風電發展中的一個危機報告委員現在風電事實上如果第一期第二期現在已經全部併網將近500隻而且都沒有發生問題那現在是因為3-1 3-2"},{"start":12024.251,"end":12032.481,"text":"過去的選商問題那有一些廠商他可能是財務上有一些問題那經過了這些COVID-19的時間等等那請問一下這些這些所謂的選商問題他會不會影響未來未來外資在台灣的投資或者是"},{"start":12042.772,"end":12059.82,"text":"或者是我們銀行的融資的態度過去銀行事實上就很不希望能夠很不想融資也是都是我們政府機關三催四請不停的召集銀行來做這些風電的融資所以它會不會影響未來的投資跟融資現在事實上因為剛開始的時候因為風電產業它是一個project finance"},{"start":12068.43,"end":12082.083,"text":"因為過去台灣的這個銀行比較沒有經驗但是現在經過這幾年他們非常有經驗他會了解說他的風險所在他也願意加入那跟委員報告就是說從三商開始我們選商"},{"start":12083.524,"end":12103.284,"text":"的原則跟標準就會過去他的執行力還有他的財務狀況作為主要的基礎所以在這邊保證 三資深未來不會有我剛才所講的不管是本土的風電廠商的就是面臨倒閉或者是面臨生產線全面的停工"},{"start":12104.125,"end":12108.387,"text":"我不敢說百分之百但是我們選章的原則已經我在這邊要特別提到身威的問題啊那個部長有講到說要要國家隊接手所以我就說啊身威本來就也是屬於國家隊之一啊你一直講說國家隊是負威我沒有這樣講說國家隊接手是因為媒體上他是說因為這個宥德風場他是一個非常好的風場那因為"},{"start":12133.078,"end":12155.598,"text":"因為這個柚子風場有可能因為潮潮那現在聲威的危機怎麼解決聲威是聲威啊聲威並不在我們的合約裡面啊所以不會有任何的國家隊你所謂的你再找所謂的國家隊再去接手聲威我們沒有辦法政府來主持這些東西因為這個是商業的行為我要特別講當我聽到國家隊我就會很害怕為什麼呢"},{"start":12162.065,"end":12183.226,"text":"中鋼我們都知道中鋼是多麼好的一家公司去年中鋼出現了幾十年來的最大的一個虧損而它的最大虧損就是當年奉你們經濟部指示去投資所謂的國家隊投資興達海基結果把資本額全部虧光光大虧64億"},{"start":12185.228,"end":12187.991,"text":"你還要解釋什麼呢你還要解釋說中鋼的虧損並不是來自於投資星達海基嗎最主要原因是因為中國他內權他的鋼品往上往國際上所以你覺得這是中鋼的問題喔那今年中鋼已經變得"},{"start":12201.184,"end":12212.716,"text":"我知道啊我知道今年的狀況比較好但是去年我問你去年是不是歷史性的歷史性的虧損今年跟去年差別就是鋼價今年鋼價比較好他應該可以恢復正常"},{"start":12216.26,"end":12220.826,"text":"那新大電機還有沒有大虧嘛所以我要講就是說當我們在所謂的一個發展一個產業的過程裡面大談所謂的國家對而導致我們很好的國營事業大幅的虧損或者我們現在本土的國家對"},{"start":12235.203,"end":12251.812,"text":"現在也出現了虧損下市甚至大幅的裁員好這個都已經會影響勞力市場另外就是包含外資一家又一家的退出現在已經五六家相繼的退出啊那我們經濟部對此視而不見還是覺得很好沒有問題只要我們選商就好你迴避這樣的問題"},{"start":12257.435,"end":12272.104,"text":"不會因此而解決問題啊第二期三一三之二他們都還要實施三一三也有可能會投入所以就是說他們沒有所謂剛剛您提到的這樣的一個現象啊而且您如果看實際的狀況我講的都是已經發生的我講的是已經發生所以我說部長啊如果"},{"start":12277.887,"end":12284.332,"text":"你都不願意面對這樣的問題然後繼續的去用粉飾太平的態度來看我們現在離岸風電的相關的危機我們謝謝委員的提醒啦 我們會注意為什麼 然後因為時間關係我們在風電的部分由我們國家融資保證的金額已經超過1500億了嘛"},{"start":12303.396,"end":12324.857,"text":"所以為什麼我們會關心這個事情 它不是單純的是未知或者是民營廠商的問題它的很多融資來自於國家做保證如果他們有爆發財務危機 如果他們有經營不下去我們擔心的會影響到我們國家的融資保證我們國家融資保證在這一塊事實上是非常非常大的金額嘛"},{"start":12325.818,"end":12338.41,"text":"所以才請經濟部用一個很誠實很認真的負責的態度去面對現在離岸風電的危機啊好 我們會謹慎小心 謝謝謝謝楊宏偉委員 謝謝謝謝部長好 接下來我們請李毅嶺委員質詢"},{"start":12357.657,"end":12358.48,"text":"謝謝主席請工部長"},{"start":12367.932,"end":12394.378,"text":"好 部長在淨零碳排和能源轉型的政策推動之下我們太陽能跟離岸風電被視為台灣再生能源的兩大支柱但是在離岸風電這個部分我們政府也投入大量的資源也有在扶植我們本土的產業希望它可以複製成半導體產業的成功的案例但是國際上的原物料的高漲的情況之下"},{"start":12395.158,"end":12406.446,"text":"導致了這個海事工程的成本跟施工船舶的這個租金跟我們燃油價格的飆漲還有缺工的這些問題等等所以讓離岸風電的開發商在設置這個離岸風機的這個進度上有嚴重的這個落後的情形那本來是2030年的離岸風電要達到13.1 GW後來這個裝置容量的目標也下修到10.9 GW請問一下這個目標還會再下降嗎"},{"start":12426.12,"end":12438.954,"text":"應該是我們盡量維持盡量維持所以很沒有信心只用盡量而已我們甚至於看看能不能超前超前下降就是原來下修的部分把它稍微把它恢復"},{"start":12439.735,"end":12442.796,"text":"對本席會這樣子問你就是因為我們看到了在我們的離岸政策這方面我們本來採取三項這個階段性的這個策略像是示範的獎勵跟我們潛力的長子跟區塊的開發這個部分在這個潛力長子這部分台電的二期風電這個升威剛剛講到升威已經在虧損了那台電也本來是估計"},{"start":12466.185,"end":12491.951,"text":"4月份今年的4月份就要完工併網那現在因為成本的關係深威他可能就在6月23號就要下市的這種情形之下已經沒有辦法去再承擔這個工程了沒有沒有深威他是本來就不是是富威所以富威他還會持續所以這是工程可是是深威標去嘛那深威負責這個工程富威標去"},{"start":12493.131,"end":12503.718,"text":"只是升威 它是負威的母公司所以你認為它的工程會繼續會影響因為那個合約對象是負威嘛是 那所以我就不早要提醒你就是說因為他們整個財務狀況的惡化會被影響我們整個豐電的這個供期喔這情形你們要做一個整個機制上的調整"},{"start":12510.342,"end":12514.165,"text":"對 我們會注意你們要注意讓這個工程順利完成那剛剛都有提到像台電的二期豐電的這個危機已經是面臨著我們豐電整個政策上這個已經是很困難的困境之下已經是冰山一角了那如果我們再追下來我們的區塊開發來講的話區塊開發是更自產不忍睹的尤其是在第一期的部分3G這個部分有五家這個豐廠的這個得標廠商"},{"start":12539.505,"end":12547.432,"text":"已經有兩家要跟我們解約了一家已經做不下去了剩下兩家再繼續做在這種情形之下整個工期也會延宕像本來在2026年到2027年的話我們準備要來那個併網的發電已經延到2028年像這種情形剩下這個豐廈豐廟跟這個海聖這個來施工那其他的工程是不是繼續延宕呢"},{"start":12565.126,"end":12567.467,"text":"這就三之一 三之二當初選商的確是產生了一些問題啦那我們儘快 當然有一些廠商他已經解約了解約那誰來承接呢這風產還在 我們會儘快的三之一兩家解約 一家做不下去財務狀況的問題"},{"start":12586.335,"end":12603.382,"text":"那你看三資二三資二是三家對不對那有一家又是佑德佑德又碰到這個升威是虧損的萬一他又做不下去呢因為這個風場還在所以他的風場只是時間往後遞延空間他不會消失所以你是說2028年做不到就往後遞延囉繼續遞延囉稍微遞延大概一兩年"},{"start":12607.884,"end":12630.95,"text":"那請問一下 三之三 三之一 三之二都虧損解約 做不下去 工程延宕那三之三會不會發生無人來標的情形不會 不會你有信心 不會我們現在正在選商當中 就是公告當中還在選商嘛 還是不確定有人會標啊據我們了解應該會有啦"},{"start":12631.79,"end":12650.7,"text":"好 如果有人得標 那本席要在這邊提醒部長就是我們很多的裝置容量這部分三之一 三之二都有嘛如果他們工廠延宕是沒有打標的話 沒有做出來那三之三就要承接這工作囉 對不對它是分開的 它是分開標的那三之一 三之二沒做到的呢"},{"start":12651.57,"end":12667.753,"text":"那這裝置容量呢您的意思是說它原先3133它解約了像原來的話你海頂2的話它做600MW的部分如果已經解約像這樣已經解約了它的解約它在標我們33的時候它會被扣分"},{"start":12669.441,"end":12688.923,"text":"他不會再飆那33飆到人要不要把這個繼續承攬做下來啊33他是另外廠商在飆的啊那這32的部分呢沒有人把接下來嗎他那個風場會空下來我們會另外招飆因為在另外去做因為已經解約了就另外不會再33的人來承接對不會不會就另外所以又是一筆龐大的費用"},{"start":12690.525,"end":12715.845,"text":"欸 招標還好咧 沒有付出什麼樣的費用那你們解約有收到一些違約金嗎都有嘛 都照程序來進行那部長 之前我們看到我們投入這個離岸風電已經陷入這種情形了我們希望你們能夠趕快的再調整這些機制不要把它停滯掉不能停滯掉 好不好接下來就是三之三了那部長 接下來要請問的就是我們"},{"start":12716.866,"end":12741.334,"text":"桃園龍潭龍科三期原來之前的話因為土地的問題所以我們整個公聽會就有在延緩那經過本席跟我們客管局跟市府的溝通協調在去年的11月跟今年的1月開了兩次公聽會得到各方的共識我們捍衛所有住戶的權益跟產業的發展所以"},{"start":12742.634,"end":12754.448,"text":"目前來講我們整個申請的範圍在104公頃那竹科也在整個的籌劃中已經把他交給國科會了大概會在一定會在7月份交到行政院"},{"start":12755.855,"end":12780.063,"text":"這個部分 那請部長這邊 那行政院趕快去審核下來但是現在最重要的是有消息傳出台積電要進駐龍科三期那這就我們會擔心台積電進來 它用電量會可不可以穩定就像它甚至說要規劃設置這最新的這個奈米四代的廠房所以供電這個部分要非常的穩定那供電的話 鄭董事長"},{"start":12780.903,"end":12809.439,"text":"這跟你有關係了 你有重要的角色了那整個配套勢必要超前部署那你們有準備我知道你們有準備的話就是說目前提出兩個方案第一個方案就是大潭電廠1號機到6號機你把它升級那另一方面的話你就說要新建10號機請問一下你們有在做選擇嗎那個我跟委員報告幾件事第一件事情這個是那個時候我們等於是總經理的跟媒體的見面會講到的事"},{"start":12810.279,"end":12832.502,"text":"我們總經理是發電的系統的頭嘛然後他其實過去他只要進到一個電廠他就知道說哪個地方可以增加電源怎麼樣他就直接回答了這件事但農科如果要做真正的核心問題在電網那這件事委員其實關心很久啦因為我們其實我們同仁要去要去拉新的電網怎麼做"},{"start":12833.163,"end":12844.209,"text":"其實委員或是您的辦公室您的服務處都有參與我講簡單一點其實龍克山崎真正的問題真正最重要現在當前最重要的事其實是電網"},{"start":12846.804,"end":12872.08,"text":"這個電網部分我知道委員很關心那委員當然地方里長意見委員一定要表達我們也知道但是對台電來說我想說如果可能我們儘快的能夠把我們可以施作的工程項目都給他確定下來總共有七個輸電線路的工程要做才有辦法供應這件事那我們也都一直在盤整我們也都在跟國科會做溝通我們也在約"},{"start":12873.081,"end":12887.207,"text":"跟市府這一邊做一點溝通就是說我們是不是能夠得到協助但我要這樣講就是還在約啦齁那委員其實清楚進度我也希望委員如果可能的話給我們台電支持我是支持的啦 讓農控可以蓋起來是 董事長 讓農科可以做今天提出來的話因為看到你們的有兩項選擇嘛我是認為說這兩項選擇都是董事長這邊提出來的可以不要由一二選一啦兩件都可以並行來做那剛剛董事長特別講到是電網的問題嘛"},{"start":12901.019,"end":12908.501,"text":"我這樣講委員你是說這兩個電廠的新建工程都可以加速進行你一到六的話要升級那十要新建嘛我跟委員報告這兩件事情對我們來講都還在內部評估階段其實台電公司我們會去做一個長期的我們電源開發的規劃但是我們會依照時程的需要提出來那以照以現在如果委員關心農科那我跟委員報告"},{"start":12928.547,"end":12955.885,"text":"您的服務處在關心的那個我們怎麼拉線這件事情那個是現在最重要的事是我本席也有在協助啦因為拉線的話就居住權益的問題環境的問題等等我們都會從中協助那本席會這樣子問最重要就是說因為現在台積電設廠的是我們說指標性的這個效益會影響著上下游供應廠商跟我們AI的資料中心等等那還有我們都形成一個最重要的這個聚落尤其是"},{"start":12956.445,"end":12973.923,"text":"桃竹苗大溪谷計畫也在包括桃園進去所以我們希望說董事長因為你們現在台電已經不准許用電在5MW以上的AI這個資料中心設置在桃園以北的新社"},{"start":12974.864,"end":12991.286,"text":"所以這個就表示你們都看到了台北的電量是不足的所以我才說你剛剛所提出來的大台電廠1到6號的升級跟10號的興建這個可以一起你們評估下去一起來做然後包括我們的電網部分的話也要超前部署先來設置好來"},{"start":12992.307,"end":13010.12,"text":"不要說一定要等到台積電申請進來的話你們再來評估就太慢了非常非常謝謝委員支持我們電源開發真的這個我們很想在立法院得到這種支持所有的方式都用進來不要再限制我們桃園以北的這個廠商來這邊設置好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝李議員委員謝謝部長好接下來我們有請蔡義瑜委員諮詢"},{"start":13023.765,"end":13044.805,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部拱部長經濟部拱部長還有台糖董事長請台糖董事長部長好部長那我想跟部長聊一下就是說台糖在新港有一個農場"},{"start":13046.655,"end":13068.807,"text":"這個農場就是靠近台37線台37線就是所謂的高鐵高鐵這條這條這條再往南不久就是嘉義科學園區也就是現在台積電的一個廠房那我們地方長久以來都認為說這一塊農場事實上是很適合把它發展為所謂的一個產業園區因為發展成產業園區"},{"start":13072.009,"end":13087.759,"text":"他透過整個高鐵的這個橋下的一個道路跟現在加科所在的台積電大概就只有10分鐘的一個路程一個車程那而且在這裡的話如果可以開發因為這面積這麼大兩百六十五公頃那我們可以來做部分的一個開發利用讓這個周邊整個效益可以整個帶動起來所以我們是希望說經濟部類有沒有可能在做這一塊"},{"start":13101.669,"end":13113.028,"text":"土地來發展為產業園區來進行所謂的一個評估的一個開發的一個計畫呢可以啊 我記得好像有在評估當中"},{"start":13115.421,"end":13137.852,"text":"以目前看起來都沒有所謂實際上的動作台湯應該這邊也知道啦 因為現在目前就是要在做健康吃啦 沒有實際上在評估我們在那個新港龍潭面積有309公頃309 比我寫的還要大那個現在大部分都種植甘蔗 包括那個青龍的合作經驗32公頃"},{"start":13140.833,"end":13149.799,"text":"西南車有4.9公頃是嘉義新竹他去設置那個垃圾掩埋場對那所以這個要開發我們是"},{"start":13150.748,"end":13171.464,"text":"同意配合政府的政策啦由西地能量機關以前期租用後合作開發的方式來取得用地謝謝對所以因為主要就是說這條就是大個體卡這條路啦要串連到這裡啦所以我們如果真的要利用的話應該就是比較利用在比大樓高"},{"start":13173.005,"end":13189.474,"text":"是讓來這裡來做一個整體的一個開發利用基本上對於未來因為台積電現在未來他的全球佈局COWAS在嘉義嘛他可能需要更多的他的相關的一個供應鏈那這一塊這一個園區呢因為地方期盼已久"},{"start":13190.655,"end":13212.096,"text":"過去這個賴總統來到新港的時候也有去針對這一塊這一個農場認為說他確實有開發園區的一個潛力那只是說看起來這幾年來在評估的力道上似乎慢了一些所以柏霖我希望說這部分可以讓您來加速評估那我們請那個園區管理局來做評估"},{"start":13214.938,"end":13242.826,"text":"大概評估的結果再跟委員做說明好,那這個就麻煩部長那第二件還是針對這個跟台糖事實上台糖有不少的再生能源廠這些再生能源廠大概都是跟所謂的電商就是太陽能商是合作的就由他們去開發那台糖大概是收三成四到五成不等的一個這個發電收益沒有錯嘛以合約的架構是長這樣"},{"start":13243.946,"end":13263.027,"text":"但是我們也知道說以現在整個太陽能也說綠能啦綠能在全世界趨勢就是R1-100的趨勢之下台灣的綠能是嚴重不足變得說所有的科技公司類他如果有要外銷到歐盟的國家的他需要更多的綠能"},{"start":13264.088,"end":13279.312,"text":"他有這樣的需求所以以我這樣了解起來現在科技公司在跟所謂的電商他們在訂合約然後去買他的綠電的時候事實上是遠超過台電公司的兌售電價沒有錯吧這個部長這件事情沒有錯吧"},{"start":13283.868,"end":13305.962,"text":"台電公司 你說不是 我是說現在科技公司如果去買這些綠電是會比台電 直接賣給台電價格還要高嘛對還價格會高嘛 所以他才會選擇不是 案場的部分他們都直接賣給這些科技公司了就賣給科技公司嘛就跟台電分手了"},{"start":13307.082,"end":13332.392,"text":"對,就跟台電分手,就是科技公司所以我現在要說的意思就是說因為台糖目前還是擁有很多的案場那這些案場,事實上如果在合約上有可能把它轉給這些科技公司那對台糖的收益也會提高那為什麼這件事情沒有辦法去進一步的去著手我想對於那些案場的電商,他也許也可以考慮"},{"start":13332.992,"end":13361.654,"text":"那這一點是台糖我覺得你可以去督促因為第一這個是一個多贏的一個方向第一個就是說台電不用直接再去買買這個電那科技公司需要綠電那這個廠商他如果經過這樣的一個轉換之後那台糖的收益會提高因為他賣的就提高了嘛他賣的價格提高我們現在就有賣了因為如果那個電價比給台電的高的話已經有那個有兩家很有名的"},{"start":13362.577,"end":13365.882,"text":"那個跟我們合作的他們也有賣標給友達給秦創大概我們有賣1.1"},{"start":13373.055,"end":13397.272,"text":"1.1億度給友達所以這個我們已經在做了有在做了嗎對謝謝好那既然有在做應該就是我感覺啦如果這是一個趨勢啦如果轉換就是說只是一個合約的轉換沒有困難的應該是要全面推動啦你這裡的電就不用買台電了科技公司有需要就都讓他們這樣去進行我們企業處理院北來就有就比台電還高就賣給企業"},{"start":13401,"end":13407.203,"text":"有啦,有在進行,有在進行就好我最後,那台長可以先回那我最後還是要跟這個部長這邊,因為部長這個也感謝你在三天前有來嘉義,那也大概"},{"start":13416.548,"end":13429.186,"text":"去救我們嘉義未來在發展整個無人機那你有做了一些一些慘事而且你也期待嘉義未來要把這個整個無人機的聚落這件事情以及相關的一個供應鏈飛鴻創造打造飛鴻供應鏈這件事"},{"start":13432.41,"end":13460.868,"text":"你也希望自己可以負起這樣的一個這樣的一個地區的一個責任那我們現在想要跟院長說事實上以我們現在嘉義做所謂無人機的一個創新應用的一個研發中心也就是所謂的雅創基地類那這個雅創基地類目前你們是委託給金屬公司對 金屬中心對 就是這個金屬中心金屬中心來做這個雅創的一個整體的發展計畫那我的我現在要怎麼"},{"start":13461.969,"end":13485.604,"text":"部長說啦如果無人機是未來我們一個非常重要的一個產業的話你把他委託給金屬中心的話事實上大家會比較傻不?說資金屬中心在管這個亞創所以他有沒有可能成立一個單獨的一個行政法人就變無人機的一個無人機的一個中心然後再由這個中心"},{"start":13486.484,"end":13508.825,"text":"來管類似我們雅創中心這樣看起來這個才會展現出我們對於整個投入無人機讓他們專業專責直接就可以投入這樣的管理如果成立行政法人曠日廢時的話那是不是可以在金屬中心就直接再成立一個新的單位就直接是管轄無人機這樣起來這裡的人才會有固定"},{"start":13512.108,"end":13526.814,"text":"固定性而且他們可以有更多的能量來推動整個台灣那以及在嘉義在發展整個無人機的一個發展那部長這是不是可以考慮看看是 報告委員因為上面來講您這邊圖案就有嘛這是才"},{"start":13528.241,"end":13545.353,"text":"產業署在做統籌接下去他們因為有不同的地方亞創中心就是剛才講金光中心金光中心它有專屬的單位它有一個處專門在做無人機的負責的的確是這樣金光中心事實上在無人機的能量也是非常非常的強的"},{"start":13546.614,"end":13575.621,"text":"我們在跟國際的簽這個MOU的時候事實上有些是金屬中心是幫忙在做簽的沒有錯沒有錯因為金屬中心目前是在這一塊他就扮演他的角色嘛那我們是希望說他就是一個專責單位然後直接就是對接我們的亞創中心那至少這樣的話方向明確而且未來的話有一些到底這些無人機的業者他要怎麼跟金屬中心對接會更明確化了好不好好"},{"start":13576.201,"end":13593.309,"text":"那這部分是不是部長可以再去督促一下我們會把這個再弄清楚再把它分清楚這樣子好謝謝好謝謝蔡議員好羅志強羅志強羅志強委員蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員"},{"start":13599.542,"end":13601.725,"text":"賴瑞榮 賴瑞榮 賴瑞榮委員羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員陳 接下來我們請陳冠廷委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長我們請工部長"},{"start":13621.793,"end":13642.671,"text":"蔡委員好部長好那我們就建議質詢喔是那剛才提到的新港的部分新港未來的我們希望說科學園區或者是在擴張到新港或者是把之前賴總統來我們嘉義新港的時候有提到的農業科技園區這兩個選項都可以納入考量"},{"start":13643.551,"end":13658.107,"text":"部長有沒有針對這一塊我們剛才提到的新港 嘉義縣新港鄉的這一塊土地有什麼樣的想法那在蔡委員剛才質詢過後再加上農地園區你認為哪一個比較適合嘉義縣的發展的方向"},{"start":13660.006,"end":13674.895,"text":"這個我可能還是要請我們這個園區管理局他們去做通盤的了解啦還是做還是產業發展需要作為主軸啦當地的這個產業發展主要我們當然知道"},{"start":13675.896,"end":13699.04,"text":"因為嘉義縣現在是多元在發展除了原來是農業發展之外那現在工業跟科技又蓬勃的發展起來那我們會跟當地的這些產業界來做一些溝通瞭解看看怎麼樣需要他的定位那我剛剛也跟蔡委員講就是說等我們盤點好以後也會送資料給蔡委員跟您"},{"start":13699.68,"end":13713.956,"text":"好那就麻煩通帆來去了解一下因為他現在新港鄉太保跟就是山海交界之處這個平原之處他已經整個發展起來了那過去我們是以農業科技作為一個發想的渠道"},{"start":13714.597,"end":13738.849,"text":"但是現在看起來的話如果結合在一起的話那變成是說我們也不限於農業科技包含其他的跟產業相關半導體產業等等我們都可以納入考量所以這個部分還是請園區來做通盤檢討一下因為我看到不斷的在擴廠那台積電不斷的在擴廠的原則之下未來新港如果可以納入整個發展區的話對於嘉義嘉義山海平衡來講是非常重要的所以這個部分請"},{"start":13739.449,"end":13762.639,"text":"因為馬籌後的後半部45公已經要變成這些半導體的這些供應鏈的圓區那是不是足夠我們也再評估一下如果不夠也許新港這邊可以扮演某一種角色也不一定好 謝謝部長那這樣新港相信聽到一定會非常的高興那接下來我們來針對第二部分無人載具無人機的部分來繼續來質詢剛才"},{"start":13765.343,"end":13784.446,"text":"蔡委員也有質詢那對我們嘉義來講他剛剛講的可能是偏向太保的這個雅創那邊的園區那我重視的是民雄航太園區民雄航太園區是生產的那有東西兩部東部當然是中科院西部的話是希望更多產業來去進駐那中科院之前有跟我們有說到是希望說"},{"start":13785.407,"end":13806.304,"text":"他的這個招商或者是引資來自的這個廠商不限於本國包含其他國家包含如果有好的美國等等的國家那我們希望說經濟部必須要跟經濟部外交部還有這個中科院三者之間一定要有一個聯繫的管道或者是說一個"},{"start":13808.237,"end":13828.621,"text":"簡單來講就是一個團隊在那邊為什麼這麼說因為你中科院他是專注於在他的科技研發或者是他們軍工的生產對於其他產業的部分特別是經濟部所管轄的這些民用的無人載具部分可能不是這麼的熟悉那當其他國家像是最近有很多歐洲國家特別都會來到我們的亞創跟我們的翁縣長來討論未來他們希望進駐"},{"start":13832.722,"end":13861.737,"text":"我們民雄航太園區但是這個部分已經超越縣府能夠負荷的能力他一定要中央來去做一個統籌嘛那他還知道說我們經濟部有什麼優惠國外進駐引資進入這個地方的優惠的這些政策這個東西中科院沒有足夠的能力去做這些事情啊那外交部只能作為平台他也沒有辦法知道說經濟部的這些細項所以中科院外交部經濟部一定要有一個工作小組在那邊常駐在那邊才能夠有效的把我們未來"},{"start":13862.617,"end":13887.754,"text":"民俊華大援軍西半部的部分把它做起來這對我們來講是至關重要的因為不是只有軍事上面的投資而已還要產業上面的投資也就是說上個月應該不是上個月是這個月我們這個特別條例裡面把它排除掉就是在野黨排除掉的就是無人載具的部分但是有一些在野黨的先進他有不同的看法他認為說未來可以提新的特別條例由經濟部主導"},{"start":13888.775,"end":13913.164,"text":"那我認為這不失為一個方案之一今天總統有特別提到再提特別預算再提特別預算條例跟追加預算或者是說把擴張的公務預算裡面把計劃這個跨年度計劃預算把它投入進去所以這三種可能性裡面現在多了一種可能性就是以經濟部作為領頭羊跨部會包含國防部經濟部甚至科技部都可以包含在裡面來去進行這一個"},{"start":13915.223,"end":13920.81,"text":"國防的這個非國防但是是軍民兩用的無人機的特別條例這個部分你怎麼看"},{"start":13922.024,"end":13948.179,"text":"8號委員委員支持我們經濟部來發展無人機產業這個當然是我們非常高興也非常感謝但是因為國防部跟我們扮演的角色有一點點不一樣因為國防部他扮演的是需求面的角色我們是供應面來支持產業他的競爭力的提升那因為國防上的需要他有特殊上的規格或者是功能上的要求"},{"start":13949.299,"end":13967.535,"text":"還有是評選那這個部分還是要國防部提出來對 所以說部長你剛剛要仔細聽我的這個資訊裡面有提到這一檔他們提到是以經濟部主導那我們當然是希望國防部來去主導嘛所以我們才會提出國防軍事特別條例那很遺憾的沒有通過因為我們沒有"},{"start":13968.636,"end":13984.943,"text":"多數嘛那我要在現在的狀況之下我不希望我是說我們要提出方案也就是由經濟部主導但是國防部有角色的可能性你們要去想相關的方案這樣子我們才有辦法去持續推動"},{"start":13986.374,"end":14004.961,"text":"除了我們繼續有提喔我相信行政院一定會繼續提國防的特別條例喔是是是但是這不妨礙經濟部自己提出跟國防部有共同需求的特別條例啊那我們來跟國防部討論一下就是我們兩邊都一定要兩者都要去推動就像我們民雄航太園區它是中科院主導的對不對對"},{"start":14006.516,"end":14027.632,"text":"但是西側的產業的部分 西側是標準廠房的設立那是不是也是有經濟部比較熟悉 對不對我們會幫忙有一些招商等等 這個我們可以幫忙所以說我們不把它作為誰主導不影響一起推動的這樣子的進程嘛所以我才想說假設在野檔有這樣子的說法的話"},{"start":14028.573,"end":14047.323,"text":"那我們怎麼樣用這個動能來去發展我們居民兩用的文宅劇這個是你們必須要去思考也可以去溝通的方向好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來我們有請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":14063.502,"end":14082.418,"text":"主席好,麻煩請部長還有台棠董事長我們請工部長跟台棠吳董事長議員好我先跟台棠董事長確認一下你們說你們在112年的時候有花116萬設計一個CIS包括一個新的LOGO"},{"start":14083.218,"end":14101.51,"text":"但是因為後來員工覺得好像比較不OK然後再加上就是原本很多商品有金招牌啦所以想一想這個logo就沒有用了這是你講的沒有錯吧對那個 報告委員那個還有那個所以叫經銷商因為我們很多都是對"},{"start":14109.421,"end":14119.213,"text":"你這樣講我就覺得非常荒謬嘛部長你其實背黑鍋啦因為後來大家都知道這王美花搞的啦但是有一件事情啊那你當初怎麼驗收的"},{"start":14120.094,"end":14148.619,"text":"你錢付出去了嘛人家的Logo給你嘛然後你驗收了錢付囉然後最後員工不OK那我不用了那你怎麼驗收的啊第二個如果你是以員工熟不熟悉或經銷商覺得OK不OK來當作一個Logo能不能夠換的一個標準那當初你們在設計你的標案的時候你有沒有講說可能要希望要員工要熟悉經銷商要OK有沒有把這個設定的招標的標準寫進去有沒有"},{"start":14149.239,"end":14165.605,"text":"報告委員齁那是當初在設計的是112年的時候超年輕化的設計我跟委員報告齁比方說我們那個台南礦田水二十幾年來都沒有改變我進去喔欸怎麼做一個好像LKK的那個logo齁"},{"start":14166.405,"end":14183.602,"text":"但是我們趁這個機會就是精進我們的礦田水的Quality然後趁機把那個不花任何錢喔不要扯別的啦我現在講的是說你你先花了116萬嘛結果這錢白花了嘛那等一下"},{"start":14184.662,"end":14209.28,"text":"當初你們在起標案然後甚至於後面驗收過程當中到底是怎麼的 你在浪費那當然你們是國營事業啦 你們可能也是自負盈虧或什麼但你們也有關補成分 你等於是間接浪費納稅的錢嘛所以從這個事情我看到一個國營事業治理的一個很大的問題就是因為後面報導 有一些台塘的員工講他說這就是因為之前王美花"},{"start":14210.02,"end":14236.482,"text":"他要求包括台電、中油、台糖跟台水通通都要換logo啊所以下面的人就開始換啊可是實際上台糖員工、台糖經銷商都不認為要換覺得舊的比較好嘛所以你們就花了116萬浪費了啊你是為了起標案而起標案不是有需求而起標案這個事情就讓大家覺得很莫名其妙嘛我們也是要年輕的話像我們改那你後來那你就是沒有做啊"},{"start":14237.122,"end":14254.315,"text":"你就沒有做嘛 那請問一下你LOGO換了沒你LOGO換了沒 你回答我你LOGO換了沒我們兩個LOGO你LOGO換了沒嘛 你沒有換就代表你沒有做你講半天 你錢花了 你沒有做你現在跟我說你要年輕化不要再阿了啦 大家聽不下去現在部長 部長現在是這樣啦 好不好剛剛講說兩個都有在用"},{"start":14255.075,"end":14270.453,"text":"那有用是不是有用在什麼地方我們有商標註冊商標註冊而已嘛你有沒有換心嘛我跟你講部長因為我剛剛講我一開始就說這跟你無關那是王美花的事情但是我覺得國營事業的治理不可以這樣"},{"start":14271.334,"end":14292.576,"text":"你今天要做什麼事情 你要有需求 你再取標案不是部長突發起想 我看不順眼然後說你給我換logo 然後下面說好 那我來換然後換了以後呢 大家又覺得不OK錢花了不做 我覺得這個大家不能接受所以我希望部長你聽到之前他們這樣處理不要再發生這樣的事情主要的理由還是因為2023年整個經濟部主改"},{"start":14293.337,"end":14312.455,"text":"對嘛,就因為王美花下台了嘛,所以想說部長下台好了,我們剛好就不要換,那錢已經花了啊,這很荒謬嘛然後第二個齁,台湯可以請回了,那部長另外我想請教一下你們之前外貿協會下面本來有一個處改組成為台灣設計研究院對吧"},{"start":14313.944,"end":14340.859,"text":"台灣設計研究院不是外貿協會改的喔外貿協會下面有一個處啦對啊它有一個設計研究中心的樣子設計研究中心是改的這個台灣設計研究院第一任的董事長叫林全能這你應該知道是誰嘛那個做董事兼的當時都是次長兼的董事長是誰嘛怪不得他兼還是專就是董事長就是他嘛然後第二任的董事長是誰第二任董事長是是和"},{"start":14342.06,"end":14369.93,"text":"何進昌 也是次長兼的嘛 對對對為人知這個設計研究院的關係他跟經濟部關係很好嘛所以才會由政務次長去兼任他的董事長沒有錯啊 因為他但是現在大家覺得很不合理的地方是什麼呢就是經濟部或者是國營事業當有設計標案的時候大概101個標案其中有98個標案都是由這一個跟經濟部關係非常良好的"},{"start":14370.39,"end":14397.251,"text":"台灣設計研究院直接得標然後大概總金額是25億左右我現在想請教一下部長請問一下你們經濟部或所屬單位把標案給這個台灣設計研究院你們會公開評選嗎就是會公開徵求不同廠商來投標然後經過一個評選還是直接簽就是說因為台灣設計研究院很棒然後我們特殊需求所以我這個案子直接給他做是哪一種"},{"start":14398.372,"end":14421.952,"text":"據我了解啦 因為我還沒簽過啦這個Maybe也不用簽到我這邊一定金額以下的是首長他可以直接簽沒有啊 我知道一定金額以下可以直接簽但是一定金額以下也可以公開評選嘛所以我現在是確定這個台灣經濟研究院他得標是直接簽給他還是你把資料給我好不好好不好 我現在跟你要"},{"start":14422.992,"end":14447.301,"text":"總共他投標了101個經濟部相關的標案他中了98個你告訴我他多少是經過評選還有多少是直接簽給他好不好這個資料你匯後提供給我那為什麼我要這樣問呢因為如果他跟經濟部關係這麼好經濟部都直接把標案直接簽給他不用公開評選然後台灣經濟研究院得標以後他再把他發包給什麼聶永禎"},{"start":14449.822,"end":14467.848,"text":"發標給他喜歡的人設計研究院 不是經濟研究院台灣設計研究院他得標 他直接拿到然後再直接發包給這些外圍廠商那他就是經濟的白手套啊這就很擺明就是規避採購法啊沒有 他好像有公開評選喔那有沒有符合採購法嘛他有沒有受採購法規範嘛"},{"start":14469.008,"end":14495.682,"text":"一定要符合啊不是他有沒有他不用嘛因為採購法這一段是他拿到經濟部的案子是符合採購法因為你們直接簽我來瞭解一下但是他直接給廠商的時候就他愛給誰就給誰他是內規嘛這個是內規不是法律你不可以讓這個變成白手套嘛而且我還看過台灣設計研究院拿工業局的案子然後美化什麼工業區裡面有個美學顧問是蘇貞昌的女兒啦"},{"start":14496.562,"end":14519.455,"text":"那院長所屬的管轄的經濟部然後管轄的設計研究院的案子然後找了院長的女兒來當美學顧問他應該是公開招標應該不要應該應該不應該好不好你直接跟我講好不好是他中標率很高嘛101個案子他中標98個啊因為他本來就是屬於經濟部的"},{"start":14521.036,"end":14549.214,"text":"所以你們就給他我知道啊對啊所以因為沒有我像以前的這個製策會啊我們也有很多案子是給製策會啊對啊那就不要採購法好了啦如果說反正製策會我也全部給他就不要採購法了按照法所以不曉得你知道我在講什麼不要繞來繞去了啦好不好你就把資料給我就好了我們看資料再來講啦好謝謝那個請那個產發署好不好因為台灣社區一定是歸你產發署督導"},{"start":14550.074,"end":14569.94,"text":"那主要業委員想要明白就是說到底他標了哪些案子哪些是公開招標哪些你執場再來就是說他拿到標案之後再下去他自己是不是也是走公開招標因為之前都是公開招標even發包出去也是但是你要去清查清楚好不好那個邱署長再去清查給這個業委員OK 謝謝"},{"start":14574.824,"end":14590.057,"text":"何新淳 何新淳 何新淳委員接下來我們請廖先祥委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我要邀請我們部長跟台聯董事長我們請部長跟曾董事長"},{"start":14595.59,"end":14617.691,"text":"兩位好 這個先確認一下 我們電動車還是我們國家發展的國家政策方向嘛對不對是那發展了之外就是要很多的一些其他的配套 那其中一個就是我們的電力那是不是可以先請我們的董事長跟部長說明一下我們的這個針對這個電動車啦 它的充電那其實它是也是有這個時間電價的差別"},{"start":14619.552,"end":14642.967,"text":"也就是說已經就是那種外面的那種快充站如果說他有申請時間墊價的話那離峰跟尖峰分別大概是多少錢那個我跟委員報告好不好離峰跟尖峰的價格大概三跟十二塊一個八塊多一個八塊多一個四塊兩塊多對大概三塊應該十二塊三塊跟十二塊那這個如果說你是業者的話你大概會怎麼定價"},{"start":14649.38,"end":14671.124,"text":"那個跟你是說充電的業者對假設你是業者的話你要賣電給電動車主嗎你大概會怎麼定價我這樣講啊那個當然是量量出為入嘛就是很簡單我我我用付了多少電費加上攤體來來收取可能的合理費用啊沒有既然我們有時間電價的話業者還會做的是如果說我現在這個時間電價是假設3塊錢那我就由3塊錢往上加"},{"start":14675.345,"end":14681.534,"text":"如果我現在的時間鏈價是12塊的話那我就從12塊往上加那我們是消費者的話如果我們是消費者的話如果我們是消費者的話如果我們是消費者的話如果我們是消費者的話如果我們是消費者的話如果我們是消費者的話"},{"start":14687.832,"end":14709.336,"text":"當然這個就是誰電價的意義啊那也就是說我們一天飛夏季的時候我們大概其實這應該有委員談論這個公車業者也是一樣的問題那現在就是普通的消費者我們飛夏季的時候3到這個3到9嘛對不對下午3到9那夏季的話是下午的4到10那也就是說在尖峰時間這段電價的時間電價是非常高的那我們的"},{"start":14714.143,"end":14736.858,"text":"車主會避開在這段時間去充電嘛這是合理的一個消費行為那也就是說我們扣掉上班時間一般的上班族可能上班時間你一般來說也不太會去充電啊那導致說他下班之後他下班之後要去充電他要等到9點之後下季的時候9點之後下季的時間要10點之後他才能夠有比較便宜的電價去充電"},{"start":14738.237,"end":14748.348,"text":"那會造成許多的車主在充電上面在時間調配上面非常的不方便我不確定台電或者是經濟部長我們工部長有沒有對這個電動車主有沒有接觸過這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":14752.023,"end":14763.787,"text":"報告委員因為夜間風時間本來就是電力比較需要的時候那時候電價本來就...當然我理解你們為什麼會這樣子嘛跟其他一樣我們有間離風嘛但是我們今天如果說我們是開遊車我們24小時隨時去加入一樣的錢啊但是當我們國家我剛剛就先問部長我們國家在推動電動車的時候我們要幫電動車的車主去排除他一些使用上面的障礙嗎"},{"start":14777.051,"end":14803.401,"text":"包括充電就是他們在時間上面的一個不方便的狀態他們要需要等到晚上9點之後10點之後他才有比較便宜的一個電價可以使用這件事情明顯起來他就是一個抗力跟阻力讓大家去買電動車嘛所以我們現在也支持廣設這個電動樁啦你停車的地方就有電動樁啦那你停了以後你去上班的時候也有電動樁我現在提出這個問題"},{"start":14804.801,"end":14818.806,"text":"你們我想確認這個問題今天我提出來你們要不要正式嘛是是是報告委員因為如果大家全部都擠在這個下班以後來充電的話那這個再怎麼樣電力上的這個台電喔台電的的這個"},{"start":14821.327,"end":14836.585,"text":"電力的問題嘛 我們知道嘛 所以說這個時間點啊 醒來醒來已久了 醒來已久了但是以前大部分受到影響的大概都是工廠比較受到影響對不對 他們可以自己調配這個上下班的時間但是一般的電動車主不是啊"},{"start":14838.593,"end":14855.088,"text":"那之前我不確定是部長還是這個董事長有針對公車業者之前公車業者也有提出這樣子的需求委員在這邊提出來公車業者有這樣的需求你們評估要來檢討那現在一般的廣大消費者也有這樣的一個問題啊我們可不可以並來檢討"},{"start":14859.431,"end":14884.269,"text":"跟委員說明一下第一個就是離尖峰的差別電價全世界都是不是台電自己做的第一點第二點我們的離尖峰的方案有不同的方案那你如果是充電裝業者那你可以來選擇台電提供的方案比照公車業者這當然沒有問題是啊大部分都是這樣子啊所以我目前就提出來部長現在我問你提出來你要不要解決嗎"},{"start":14885.382,"end":14901.133,"text":"不是啊 就是我們已經提了方案給公車業者選他有兩段式 有三段式大部分都兩段式啊就剛剛講的3到9 4到10現在有三段式可以選那三段式也是有最便宜的跟貴的嘛對不對"},{"start":14902.318,"end":14915.345,"text":"本來就有便宜跟貴的便宜的時間很長啊沒關係啊 如果說你們台電不認為這個電動車的推廣電動車主遇到的一些實際上的問題不是國家政策的話你把這個事情丟到那個店家上面講部長不講話我也沒意見啦這個不通啦部長沒意見我也沒意見啦反正你們就是口頭上說要推動電動車然後反正電動車主提出的問題你們就說這個業者的事還是你們消費者的事不關我的事"},{"start":14928.271,"end":14934.818,"text":"另外一個小問題另外一個小問題啦另外一個小問題啦也是這個消費者使用的一個問題啦一般來說我們平常上班就出去嘛那年假也是大家出去了高峰期但是我們的時間電價在過去喔"},{"start":14945.829,"end":14966.111,"text":"因為也沒有牽扯到一般的電動車消費者的問題我們大概以今年為例4月3號到4月6號是國定假日但是我們這個是行政院公告的這個國定假日4月3號到6號但是我們台電的這個尖梨豐的這個表大概只有4月4號跟4月5號因為4月3號跟4月6號是國定假日"},{"start":14967.913,"end":14991.506,"text":"我講過是補價但是我們台電就把補價當作一般日在算這個尖利豐的電價這沒錯嘛對不對我們確實是依照著國定假日在做安排的這也是依照政府的規劃但你們跟行政院上面的紅字是不一樣的對不對沒錯吧今年的4月3號跟4月6號你們是用一般日在算啊"},{"start":14992.295,"end":14997.05,"text":"不是委員我這樣子說我們本來就是有一個規則在你現在是建議說彈性休假"},{"start":14999.296,"end":15007.238,"text":"應該把它放到離風去要不要一體下去離風我尊重你們但是我提出來就是電動車主的需求我離風就是我連駕的時候我會出去嘛但是我要出去的時候這一點導致我們可以來評估因為講簡單一點就是彈線休假以後它就容易變離風那我們就來我們就讓它在實質離風這件事情做反應對我現在"},{"start":15023.781,"end":15049.805,"text":"好 那謝謝董事長願意在這點上面做談論我現在今天提出來就是我是一個電動車主那我在實際上我知道很多電動車主都會遇到的一些問題那既然電動車是國家持續推廣的方向那我也希望台電是提供能源的一個角度那也可以多傾聽電動車主的意見來做政策上面電價的一些調整好不好 那就麻煩部長 謝謝好 謝謝廖耀忻 翔偉謝謝部長跟董事長"},{"start":15054.264,"end":15057.256,"text":"侯孟凱侯孟凱侯孟凱委員"},{"start":15059.482,"end":15084.65,"text":"根據發言委員處不在場外區已經已發言完畢詢答結束委員羅志強、洪玉祥、張家俊、邱志偉、賴瑞榮所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期所定各位委員針對於刷案或相關提案請於6月5號"},{"start":15086.671,"end":15100.441,"text":"星期五下午5點前送經紀委員會辦公室以律後續會診 預時不再收案討論事項 所列議案詢答結束並定期繼續進行審查謝謝大家 現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}