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江副院長各位委員先進1996年是李登輝前總統訪美引發中共不滿向台灣海域發射多枚飛彈及進行軍演造成台海局勢瀕臨戰爭危險1996年也是台灣人民不畏中共飛彈威脅之下完成總統由台灣人民直接民選"},{"start":1902.15,"end":1931.606,"text":"迄今都已經屆滿30週年而今天也是賴總統執政兩週年的日子因此今日本人應邀就中華民國115年度中央政府保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別預算案編制情形進行報告並被質詢更深具特別的意義"},{"start":1933.117,"end":1956.812,"text":"然而過去兩年來總統成立了全社會防衛任性委員會前後召開七次的會議整併許多民間的力量也使我國一旦遭受到任何的安全威脅時更具備有完備的應變能力再次感謝大院昨日就本特別預算案第一批發價書採購編制情形相關事項安排專案報告"},{"start":1962.349,"end":1990.328,"text":"而順利的完成行政院得以進行後續的程序今日經行政院院會的核定將全本特別預算案送請大會審議以下緊究本案推動的必要性與效益以及特別預算案編制概況做重點的說明關於保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫之必要性與效益"},{"start":1991.411,"end":2016.07,"text":"國家安全是台灣經濟發展人民安居樂業的基礎當前國際地緣政治局勢詭譎複雜強權博弈以及區域的衝突爭端逐漸形成長期國際的態勢而牽動台海情勢變化台灣位於印太地區重要的地緣位置台海的和平"},{"start":2017.008,"end":2033.26,"text":"安定與維護世界的安全繁榮密不可分近年來中共對台軍事演習頻率與強度顯著的上升以軍機軍艦越過海峽中線的次數大幅成長"},{"start":2034.212,"end":2061.543,"text":"演習也不再只是單純的兵力展示而是以奪取制空制海權聯合火力打擊封鎖與登陸、奪島等對台作戰想定而進行演練賦予網路攻擊與認知作戰對我國家安全造成嚴重威脅面對中共日益頻繁而且極具針對性的軍演"},{"start":2062.623,"end":2082.215,"text":"加上不斷升級的灰色地帶侵擾,我國不對稱戰力的整備裝備、科技與作戰方式等,繼續緊迫的隨之調整,現已毫無再拖延的空間。比提升持續戰力確保國家安全,維護台海和平穩定。"},{"start":2083.683,"end":2107.131,"text":"那麼關於本計畫效益說明如下第一項海馬式多管火箭飛戰系統具備300公里內遠距精準打擊能力重獲之後可與敵發起聯合火力打擊時對其實施反制並可機動部署於全島各地阻止敵軍主力朝內陸進犯"},{"start":2111.073,"end":2119.858,"text":"M109A7自走炮這一項具備了30公里以上的射程而且可以執行分散部署精準打擊"},{"start":2121.109,"end":2141.427,"text":"而反甲型无人机可执行急针急打的功能。托士2B反装甲飞弹、标枪反装甲飞弹都具备精准反装甲的能力,而这三者同时可以创造空、地、多域、多层、重层的高效打击能力。"},{"start":2142.388,"end":2166.328,"text":"為提升我國防衛的自主能力兼顧計畫的實效性規劃編列特別預算辦理以在最短的時間內強化我國防的韌性捍衛國家安全本院參照往例拟據了強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案作為特別預算編列的法源依據於114年11月27日送請貴院審議"},{"start":2169.891,"end":2193.564,"text":"經大院於115年5月8日並按審議三讀通過名稱修正為保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例經費上限由1.25兆元修正約7800億元包括第一批項目3000億元及第二批項目4800億元才一年一期編列"},{"start":2196.267,"end":2201.276,"text":"並經總統於今年的5月11號已公布實施在案那關於特別預算"},{"start":2202.885,"end":2225.811,"text":"編制的內容國防部依特別條例規定提報了第一批項目總經費2950億元並經本院編制完成中華民國115年度中央政府保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別預算案說出編列第一批項目的部分經費88億元"},{"start":2228.052,"end":2235.146,"text":"包括採購M109A7自走砲海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統反甲型無人機飛彈系統"},{"start":2237.425,"end":2257.759,"text":"標槍反裝甲飛彈以及脫勢2B反裝甲飛彈武器裝備等所需的各項經費那所需財源依特別預算法條例的規定均以舉借債務來支應本年度將是第二批項目發價書情形再循程序編列後續的相關預算"},{"start":2258.939,"end":2282.026,"text":"另預計116年經費需求約為1000億元其他的餘數則將於117及122年編列以上緊究保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫推動之必要性效益及特別預算案的編制重點概要說明有關特別預算案的稅出編列情形"},{"start":2283.254,"end":2293.713,"text":"再由陳主席長做詳細報告裁員籌措情形再由財政部莊部長報告計畫內容執行部分再由國防部顧部長報告"},{"start":2295.157,"end":2321.484,"text":"此次特別預算案所籌購品項皆在完備公售意願輸出許可產能排成以及交運期程下進行規劃而且符合國軍作戰需求本院將嚴守預算編審程序並縝密規劃具體執行懇請各委員予以支持早日通過特別預算案共同努力捍衛國土家園謝謝大家感謝支持謝謝"},{"start":2324.695,"end":2328.768,"text":"謝謝主委長的報告 謝謝接下來我們請陳組長報告"},{"start":2343.214,"end":2362.992,"text":"陳院長 江副院長 各位委員先進 大家好115年中央政府保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰利計畫採購特別預算案編制概況及計畫重點左院長已經做了說明以下警究特別預算案之編制經過及內容概要進一步提出報告"},{"start":2364.173,"end":2384.513,"text":"當前國際地緣政治局勢詭譎複雜敵情威脅日益嚴峻為確保國家安全維護台海和平穩定建構堅實防衛韌性我國氣區強化不對稱戰力加速籌貨武器及裝備行政院理據強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例"},{"start":2387.096,"end":2400.26,"text":"草案於114年11月27日送請大院審議執行大院於115年5月8日審議修正通過名稱修正為保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例採購範圍與軍購項目違憲"},{"start":2405.582,"end":2416.973,"text":"經費上限由1.25兆元修正為7800億元包含第一批花價書預算上限3000億元及第二批花價書預算上限4800億元並於本年5月11日經總統公佈"},{"start":2422.217,"end":2436.564,"text":"以下僅折入上該條例特別預算案編列相關之規定第四條本條例所稱保衛國家安全及強化不推薦戰力計劃採購指使館機關及其所屬機構部隊辦理經行政院核定採購第五條鎖定項目之裝備系統與其相關資源系統裝備之獲得產製維修工程及訓練第五條本條例"},{"start":2453.612,"end":2474.924,"text":"採購的項目如下M-109A7自走炮海馬士多管火箭揮彈系統反甲型無人機揮彈系統標槍反甲飛彈無托式2B反甲飛彈以下經美國政府於本條例施行後一年內同意授予之軍購項目"},{"start":2476.605,"end":2488.543,"text":"一軟硬砂混合反制無人機系統二各型反彈道及防空飛彈三中低空防空系統四反甲飛彈戰備儲存補充案"},{"start":2491.786,"end":2518.473,"text":"那第六條也規定就是說全條第一項第一款第五款第五款項目之第一批花價書預算上限是新台幣三千億元那第六款項目應取得美國政府正式同意授予後依據第二批花價書核實編列預算他的預算上限是新台幣四千八百億元那以特別預算的方式編列不受預算法第23條的規定限制"},{"start":2520.834,"end":2543.927,"text":"全項採購採一年一期方式的一個編列期滿後續預算及期成經立法院同意後分期辦理預算籌編和審議那行政院應與本條例通過一個月內就第一批花價輸預算案向立法院提出專案報告經立法院同意後使得籌編預算案那第二批花價"},{"start":2545.689,"end":2555.277,"text":"畫架書的預算案一同那立法院同意於前項專案報告後行政院應於兩個月內將第一批畫架書預算案"},{"start":2556.604,"end":2575.36,"text":"送立法院審議那第二批花價書預算案一同那第一項所需的經費來源已用以前年度稅基剩餘和舉借債務方式辦理那其以特別預算方式編列的每一年度舉借債務的額度不受公債法第五條第七項規定的限制"},{"start":2576.061,"end":2598.858,"text":"那中國政府總預算和特別預算於本條例施行期間的舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算數及特別預算稅出總額合計數者15%那本條例施行期間中央政府呃舉借一年以上公共債務未償一額預算數應依公債法第五條第一項規定辦理國防部依本條例規定提"},{"start":2599.659,"end":2612.247,"text":"提報第一批採購項目總經費2,949億9,097萬6千元由行政院編制完成115年度特別預算案推出編列第一批項目部份經費88億1,257萬1千元經提送行政院第4,034會議通過送請大院審議以後年度則分年經費需求滾動檢討編列至第二批採購項目"},{"start":2629.919,"end":2642.604,"text":"自取得美方提供發價書後再進行編列那特別預算的一個內容概要一本特別預算115年編列稅數編列稅數編列88億1257萬1千元那計劃別主要是保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃編列88億1257萬1千元那各項採購項目和預算數如下第一"},{"start":2660.402,"end":2667.285,"text":"M109A7自走炮39億2449萬6千元海馬仕多管火箭揮彈系統27億9938萬7千元反甲型無人機揮彈系統17億9501萬1千元是標槍反甲揮彈系統1億6298億7千元托士2V反裝甲揮彈系統"},{"start":2685.734,"end":2702.723,"text":"據佔備存糧補充一億三千零六十九萬元那正式別國防支出預算國防支出編列八十八億一千兩百五十七萬一千元佔稅出總額百分之百以上稅出經費所需財源八十八億一千兩百五十七萬一千元全數以舉接債務支應"},{"start":2704.504,"end":2728.645,"text":"結餘以上特別預算案 細為確保國家安全 維護台海和平安全和平穩定 加速籌貨 提升戰力 武器裝備強化不對稱戰力 建構強韌防衛量能所需敬請各位委員 女士 先生會與指教 並鼎力支持祝福大家健康快樂 萬事如意 謝謝謝謝陳主委長的報告 謝謝現在我們請財政部專務部長報告"},{"start":2745.698,"end":2764.55,"text":"韓院長 江副院長 各位委員先進有關中華民國115年度中央政府保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃的採購特別預算案它的收入編列情形做以下的報告首先是裁員的規劃根據保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例的第六條規定"},{"start":2768.41,"end":2789.686,"text":"第五條第一項第一款到第五款項目的第一批發價書預算的上限是三千億元第六款項目應是取得美國政府正式同意授予後根據第二批發價書核實編列預算案其預算上限為四千八百億元以特別預算方式來編列"},{"start":2792.772,"end":2813.042,"text":"採購前頁採購採一年一期方式來編列期滿後後續預算及期程要經大院同意後分期辦理預算籌編及審議那麼本條例所需經費的來源得以一用以前年度的稅計剩餘或舉借債務來支應本期不對稱佔利特別預算案總經費編列88億元那麼執行期間為115年度裁員規劃全數是以舉借債務來做支應"},{"start":2821.803,"end":2839.846,"text":"第二部分是報告債務的管控有關債務管控部分依照本條例第六條的規定每年度舉借債務額度不受公債法第五條第七項規定的限制為需管控本條例施行期間中央政府總預算及特別預算的舉債額度合計數"},{"start":2840.782,"end":2858.049,"text":"不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額合計數的15%且中央政府所舉借一年以上的公共債務未償餘額的預算數應符合公債法第五條第一項的規定不得超過前三年度"},{"start":2859.669,"end":2877.052,"text":"GDP平均数的40.6%那么本条例从115年度推动执行预计115年度中央政府总预算案新式战机采购还有海空战力提升计划采购丹纳斯台风以及728豪雨灾后副"},{"start":2877.592,"end":2894.712,"text":"原重建以及因应国际情势强化经济社会及民生国安任性花莲马太安西烟色服灾后重建不对称站立等特别预算案举借合计数占该期间税出预算总额的合计数是12.7%"},{"start":2896.499,"end":2903.929,"text":"低於15%的規定上限那麼截至115年4月底中央政府長期債務餘額實際數是5,929億元佔前三年度明目GDP的平均數是23%"},{"start":2912.28,"end":2935.512,"text":"至于115年底长期债务余额的预算数那么是根据公债法第五条的规定按照114年底中央政府长期债务余额的决算数6到0730亿元再加上以前年度特别预算债务的举借预算已分配而未执行的数以及115年度预计的举借债务数"},{"start":2936.552,"end":2940.894,"text":"並扣除債務償還數後預估115年底中華政府長期債務餘額是6兆8673億元約佔前三年度明目GDP的平均數是26.4%距離公債法規定的債務存量上限40.6%還有14.2個百分點大約是3.6兆元的舉借空間那麼以上的報告敬請各位委員會議支持及指教謝謝"},{"start":2963.718,"end":2966.486,"text":"謝謝中央部長的報告再接下來我們請國安部顧部長報告"},{"start":2983.16,"end":3000.933,"text":"主席 各位委員先進國防部今日就保衛國家安全及強化不貼身戰力計畫採購特別條例第五條第一項第一至第五款所訂第一批項目特別預算案編列進行實施特別預算編制概要報告 敬請各位委員先以指教"},{"start":3001.773,"end":3013.021,"text":"依照上海條例的第五條第一項第一至第五款所訂第一批項目總金額為新台幣2,949億9,097萬6千元其中包括ML-159A7自走砲是806億6,572萬9千元海馬士多管火箭"},{"start":3027.463,"end":3030.426,"text":"飛彈系統是1,597億1,403萬4千元反甲型無人機飛彈系統是330億8,429萬2千元"},{"start":3041.977,"end":3051.181,"text":"托斯2B反專甲飛彈戰備存量補充採購計畫是55億7,421萬4千元托斯2B反專甲飛彈系統是60億2,636萬2千元在標槍反專甲飛彈系統部分是99億2,634萬5千元這是總金額的部分"},{"start":3067.148,"end":3078.214,"text":"那依照這個條例,一年一編的規範,那本年度編列88億1257萬1千元,包含M109A7自走炮39億2449萬6千元,海馬式多桿火箭飛彈系統27億9938萬7千元,反甲型無人機飛彈系統17億9501萬1千元,標槍反三甲飛彈系統1億6000"},{"start":3096.778,"end":3119.674,"text":"一億六千兩百九十八萬七千元脫勢2B反彈槍飛彈系統及戰備存量補充一億三千零六十九萬元在預期效益及後續籌補作為部分第一有關艦具軍人打擊能力如院長剛剛所提的海馬斯多艦火箭系統具備三百公里遠"},{"start":3121,"end":3140.293,"text":"300公里內演技進入打擊能力,籌募後可與敵發起聯合火力打擊時,對其飛彈或擁護部隊實施反制令海馬式多元火箭飛彈系統的機動部署於全島各地對各地區登島之敵實施分散部署,同時擔著阻止敵軍主力朝內陸進犯"},{"start":3142.048,"end":3168.121,"text":"在強化洛杉磯多域重層高效打擊能力部分M1動角、A7製造炮具備30公里以上射程且可執行分散部署精準打擊RTX-600SR及RTX-700M反甲型無人機飛彈系統可執行群體自動化急震擊打功能TOS-2B反專甲飛彈、標槍反專甲飛彈系統具備精準反專甲能力三者共同創造空地多域重層之高效打擊能力"},{"start":3169.665,"end":3177.591,"text":"為持續強化聯合專案能力後續,國軍仍將籌補各類型的監偵無人機,掀起掌握臺海周邊的敵軍動態,並建置人工智慧決策資源系統與戰場共同圖像質管系統,以提升"},{"start":3188.559,"end":3208.86,"text":"抵行動研判與加速擊殺鏈,非使海馬士多管火箭飛彈系統發揮最更佳的作戰效益也同步籌建各類型攻擊無人機、反制無人機系統、機動組結器材與建置彈藥產線等全面強化地面部隊不對稱戰力與防衛韌性協力"},{"start":3211.241,"end":3239.923,"text":"所籌購自M1.9A7自主炮Artis反甲型無人機飛彈系統標槍以脫勢2B反專甲飛彈形成全方位之高效打擊能力面對當前急劇變化之危險形態國軍附有捍衛國家安全之職責重任本部將務將所獲國防資源發揮最大效益以應處當前嚴峻情勢 守護人民無恥敬請各位委員先進會議指教並鼎力支持謝謝"},{"start":3242.178,"end":3259.571,"text":"謝謝顧部長的報導,謝謝我們現在進行委員質詢,每位委員尋答時間不得超過15分鐘委員如果不在場,視為棄權首先我們請陳永康委員質詢,洪裕祥委員請準備"},{"start":3270.836,"end":3279.029,"text":"韓院長 院理各位同仁好我們今天有請這個卓院長以及國防部顧部長麻煩請卓院長顧部長備詢"},{"start":3290.959,"end":3309.879,"text":"陳委員好院長好部長好昨天我也在院會聽取了大院的報告以及所有發言委員的整個諮詢經過我看到我們所有委員以不同的面向不同的角度切註當然中間也有很多很細膩的問題"},{"start":3311.62,"end":3328.294,"text":"當然陳鴻院長跟部長很細心的回覆那我今天希望用一個宏觀的角度就整體國防預算怎麼樣發揮它更加的效益強化我們的嚇阻力跟韌性提出一些建議那中間有部分地方也請院長跟部長指教謝謝"},{"start":3331.512,"end":3357.502,"text":"這張圖我們了解是國防部我第一次看到國防部用AI做輔助工具那麼做出一份簡報那這個簡報對第一次看的人大家覺得很驚訝但這裡面還有精進的空間就是它是一個二維的思維它是一個平面的探討那我們希望後續怎麼做呢現在特別強調我們這個台灣之盾台灣之盾"},{"start":3358.702,"end":3378.413,"text":"不管是從我們國家防衛整體構想以及未來獲得的武器裝備因為台灣之盾並不是一個美國的建制裝備所以它是基於我們現有的系統架構然後去提升性能那這個提升性能的過程中間就有一些"},{"start":3379.514,"end":3408.333,"text":"AI的功能有一些界面他不是透過軍售能夠獲得那因此可能就要透過直接商售但是在直接商售呢因為過去這一這個大半年中啊我們執政黨在野黨或者是我們的國防部我們在溝通過程中啊對於直接商售的定義啊並沒有講得很清楚那稍後我再向各位啊做一個說明各位看這個"},{"start":3409.973,"end":3434.797,"text":"右边就是我们国防部炉裂出来的从过去几年去年到现在我们要采购的装备那左边的这个雷达扫的画面这个就是我们现在一般战术态势这是一个2D的可是中间的这张图你就看到了它有不同的面向它有水平的整合有垂直的整合"},{"start":3435.949,"end":3444.02,"text":"昨天部長也講到了我們買的武器啊他有高中低但是性能呢"},{"start":3445.745,"end":3474.747,"text":"不能有高中低 性能只有用高價錢有高中低但是對應每一個不同的層級平面整合 火力整合 信號源的整合它這是一個三維的作業那這個部分因為並不是我們現有國內的裝備所有那美方的AI的技術也有很多先進可是最近發生一個案例就是美國的Entropic公司它跟美國的戰爭部打官司"},{"start":3475.347,"end":3495.833,"text":"因為他的這個技術有些事出有些不願意用在作戰的裡面就是責任分攤的問題因此我這邊對國防部提出建議就是將來AI的導入的時候我們武裝衝突法戰爭法接戰規定這個條件要列的非常清晰就是哪些是"},{"start":3496.693,"end":3516.681,"text":"低阶层的直接的人就在系统里面或者out of loop或者in the loop on the loop这个可能要进一步的就是跟AI的界面要保持一个是互动关系但是不能完成授权对于小型无人机操作手那"},{"start":3517.936,"end":3542.25,"text":"烏克蘭的戰場它的面積台灣的16.7倍烏東的戰場就兩個台灣所以成功的案例可以借鏡但不一定能複製因為Starlink在烏東光在烏克蘭就提供了5萬一個以上的地面連接點每個點又可以200個用戶那我們現在還希望我們的這個"},{"start":3544.532,"end":3566.085,"text":"不管是速發部也好或者是其他的有關衛星國外的希望能夠盡快強化爭取更多的頻道跟頻寬那我們看下一張這是今天早晨的這個就是國防部公布的攻擊擾台的圖那把這個圖套上去你就看到對周遭國家的情勢這是一個概念這個圖是現階段我們國軍啊"},{"start":3571.252,"end":3596.222,"text":"C4ISR已經把過去的比方講遠程的樂山雷達空軍的空中預警機各種機動雷達或者遠程的飛彈在這個裡面陸軍被整合的裝備比較小但是還是有數據鏈路我們要從這個往一個台灣之盾的概念構想向到左邊來"},{"start":3597.435,"end":3621.251,"text":"那這個中間就產生了我們未來導入美方的科技那這個雲端是在哪裡還是我們還在放在國外這個可能要進一步跟技協的部分做探討因為如果你不能夠掌握雲端你只是做雲端的加密這個還是有一定的風險存在所以從我們現在的C4ISR"},{"start":3622.091,"end":3644.027,"text":"进到C5ISR我这边建议加个T因为刚才在报告里面讲了我们的M142海马斯火箭已经有射程可以到300公里了但是这个打的是对方的机动目标它算一个Time Critical Target所以在这种动态下可是300公里以外的侦测通常是属于空军的"},{"start":3644.947,"end":3670.348,"text":"遠程雷達空中雷達所以他要把這個資料feedback到我們這個系統中心再來做目標的分配所以要加一個targeting因為這個時間非常有限那這個系統啊在整合的過程中間就中間的圖像有包括資料量的整合整個系統流程的整合不同的三軍的優勢不同因為我們過去"},{"start":3672.269,"end":3699.945,"text":"從這個空軍啊天網強網這個環網環展一直在進步這個美國的組合商也有更新那海軍的雷達還有指管系統也在跟進陸軍現在切入也很進步但是三家的界面呢不同的美國廠商背景這個整合過程中間我們要花很多的功夫也就是說不只有工程的人員有法律的工程的會計師要一起來督導這個系統要他做一個有效的整合"},{"start":3702.469,"end":3718.432,"text":"那这个是我们就讲刚刚讲如果一个某个武器被耽误了你对中共两栖进犯的能力就是有点有所延误其实我向两位这个先进报告原来20年前我们西海岸都是红色海滩"},{"start":3719.141,"end":3738.136,"text":"很多現在啊迎擊以下的紅色海灘只剩下少數幾個為什麼呢氣候變遷海水上升海灘後退海灘沒有深度西濱快速道路沿岸把海岸切斷就說沒有正面可以推進內陸再加上海堤海牆漁塘漁溫"},{"start":3740.538,"end":3760.952,"text":"以及离岸风机,就是说对方来讲享用正规的两栖进犯的几率已经不大了。但是我们看右边这个图,它那个红色不是海滩,这是过去20年间严重的海滩侵蚀,这是水利署河川局做的图。"},{"start":3761.499,"end":3782.359,"text":"再加上所有的這個設施工程在建所以把這個圖跟這個圖一比就是說我們過去演習的海灘選項可能要重新思考因為很多這個scenario很多的想定它已經不符了就像兩年前我們在巴黎海灘現在這個淡水大橋淡江大橋做完了那海灘對於切斷了"},{"start":3784,"end":3811.965,"text":"那像在南部外面的很多的海灘都是余温余糖也就不能使用所以我们必须把这些图套叠起来最后我们台湾之盾这是对外在对内我们这个系盾就是我们要保护它最主要就是电网很多的关键基础设施那这些设施能够做好来支撑台湾之盾那这是要横向的跨部会的协商所以说光保护的不是基地"},{"start":3812.825,"end":3838.435,"text":"那這個部分可能要請這個部長現在提供一點我們建議部長您是不是提供一點指導剛剛謝謝委員的指教我想委員應該都很清楚就是說我們現在這個在整體防空的這個部分現在不但是有反彈也要反擊那還有現在有反無人機所以各個這個系統所要接戰的這個"},{"start":3840.316,"end":3862.533,"text":"情況下我們要考慮到這個接戰的成本這個是首先考慮到第一個第二個的話就是國產的部分跟這個我們所美制的武器這個部分那國產武器的部分也要做一個整合那美制的部分也要做整合那同時進一步也要將美制跟國產的部分進一步做整合那這樣才能夠建立一個"},{"start":3864.955,"end":3883.923,"text":"這個良好的指管的系統那同時這個指管的系統第三個還要考慮到他不能夠過於這個centralize也就是說他要必須decentralize那還是能夠發揮在我們遭受到聯合國立打擊之後我們運用所有能夠僅存的這一些聯合簽證的這些系統"},{"start":3885.043,"end":3906.163,"text":"然後一直到suit這個部分還是能夠維持住然後並且能夠做好火力相關的協調分配那最後就是有提到的交戰規則的部分我想這個是我們現在已經在進行的部分也就是說所謂的AI它都是一個輔助決策那最後的部分還是要由這個指揮官來下達最後的決心那也要承擔這個相關的這個責任"},{"start":3909.348,"end":3934.76,"text":"補充說明啊我們現在的防空啊未來當然有有這個強攻飛彈攻勢攻三攻四那美國有攻二愛國者二愛國者三我特別要提醒就是愛國者三型飛彈因為他是技術管制我們已經這個飛彈已經來的16年2000年10年來買的這個10年一個篩口送回去啊一枚飛彈要花100多萬美金所以300"},{"start":3936.763,"end":3951.594,"text":"88枚飞站如果用20年的话我们每年的作为会是非常高的这个可能考虑在年度预算内要考虑进去这次的专案报告里面已经提到了很多的受限维护成本但是这个数字可能还不够"},{"start":3952.455,"end":3973.625,"text":"因为这个军售的维保的钱到最后如果20年30年有的时候超过初期投资那后面我们去讲一下这个过程这上面是美国内部的流程最主要就是强调军售过程会有些哪些有时间上面有一个就是说"},{"start":3974.933,"end":3992.933,"text":"由美国授权同意了美国总统授权同意了DOS然后再交给这个DSA发架书出来这一次这个川普总统回去以后就是把第二批发架书的时间呢现在我想国防部要保持密切联系因为目前还看不出来啊是什么时间他会提供"},{"start":3995.253,"end":4019.309,"text":"这个图是美国战争部就是安和局把去年全球的军售国家的总额全部公布出来了各位可以看到在全世界42个国家中华民国我们采购的额度是第一名高于以色列这个东西它是在国务院会在他把的"},{"start":4020.117,"end":4038.798,"text":"公開可以上網我們建議將來只要美國一公開我們部內就把這個資訊做個整理可能由我們部內發布比透過媒體公開比較好一點它的數值就像昨天部長講的發價書就算簽了美國政府代表跟廠商簽約的時候還會有調整"},{"start":4041.681,"end":4062.319,"text":"但是有一点建议就是我们政府编预算不管八年几年对美金来讲我们是固定价款但是美国的是用成本计价法它保证它厂商的利润5% 8%所以它是cost plus因此在军售案执行的过程中这个价钱还会有涨幅有跌"},{"start":4063.259,"end":4087.265,"text":"這個讓大家了解但是也希望在部內同仁未來做說明的時候對我們這個從政或者在野的同仁啊能夠在這個領域上強加說明這個是公布今年的剛才是全世界42個國家2025年的軍售項目額度我們第一名以色列第二名這個是目前2026美國已經公布的了那"},{"start":4089.041,"end":4105.891,"text":"目前科威特是第一名那我们因为现在还没有通过还没有收到美国的发价书还没有排进去不过有一点可以宽心的就是有关这个海马斯这个全世界现在只有一个国家买所以可能不会跟我们产生生产量的冲突"},{"start":4109.223,"end":4131.133,"text":"這張圖就是美國國務院他也會公佈他公佈了就是用我們駐美TACO的名義買了多少項目他會公佈所以這些東西我們就建議這是美國的官方網站不管是從國會網站國務院網站或是國防部安和局的網站他都會公開如果這個公開以後我們部內先做個調整"},{"start":4132.113,"end":4147.241,"text":"那麼也許並不是在做專案報告能夠跟我們各個委員辦公室做溝通說明我想可以減少很多後面對這個判斷上面有一些解讀的落差因為每一個人看的資料不同我們看到這邊的是美元"},{"start":4147.941,"end":4166.699,"text":"那国内看到的是换算台币这里面他已经讲得很清楚了他说你可以走军售也可以走商售但是他都有一个门槛值同样要接受美国内部的核可认证所以他这个直接商售跟军售是平行的"},{"start":4167.339,"end":4196.167,"text":"並不是這個商售叫切開我們過去看過一些少數案子的弊端是因為小額的那不在他的管制範圍內這個是不是部長您做個說明我想委員指教的很好我想我們國防部會來考慮就是說按照這個對台他們所國務院所公布的但這個部因為他的項目會有點繁雜因為很多是屬於作為的作為好"},{"start":4202.742,"end":4224.047,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝陳永康委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 國防部長貝勳 謝謝向院會報告一長二樓旁聽又來了一批我們台北市敦化國中的同學 我們掌聲歡迎各位同學好 接下來我們請洪玉祥委員請質詢 陳冠廷委員請準備"},{"start":4236.564,"end":4252.274,"text":"好謝謝主席有請這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢黃委員好好卓院長好好辛苦了來下一頁"},{"start":4253.972,"end":4277.134,"text":"我想今天大概跟院長就很簡單的請教大概就幾個層面大概就是我們預算的規模 編列的邏輯然後還有因為川習會之後這個對美的關係的因應還有我們這一個軍購之後可能後續產生的一些民生的風險大概跟院長稍微請教一下下一頁"},{"start":4279.002,"end":4305.62,"text":"大概我們也跟各位國人報告我們今天省的是第一批的七千八百億的特別預算那應該我們是分八年編列分八年編列那因為我們的這個公務預算的話在一百一十五年我去查大概是九千四百九十五億所以如果我們把七千八百億平均儲好了算我們大概八十八"},{"start":4307.011,"end":4332.511,"text":"我剛看一下那個報告就是只編了88億所以大概如果這樣加起來就接近差不多一兆就是9500多億的公務預算 國防預算對不起 跟委員說明一下那個9000多億的部分事實上是有加列了其他的特別預算包括海空戰力 F-16還有我們任性的預算那我們真正國防部的預算是5614"},{"start":4334.092,"end":4359.697,"text":"光部的年度預算是五六一四對就是一百一十五年這邊嘛對對對我現在在審議的總預算在光部的部分是五六一四不是九千多億所以因為我看一下你們有寫北約的什麼一些標準等等對對對那這個另外因為要加計海巡跟那個退伍會的退伍的部分但是你不要就算我們國防安全的一部分嘛"},{"start":4361.55,"end":4365.413,"text":"國防部本身編列的年度預算的部分在今年是5614億元那我們因為"},{"start":4370.529,"end":4391.287,"text":"依照北約的這個標準我們還可以加進海巡的部分還有退伍的部分這是按照北約的標準就是退休的那另外還有再加進我們不是有一個經濟部的一個韌性的一個預算兩年那我們也有獲付一定的預算然後再加進我們過去的這個沒關係反正就算在你"},{"start":4391.927,"end":4412.416,"text":"國防部真正國防部是五千多億啦對不對反正就是這些錢嘛反正這些錢都是我們要花的啦也不能說你沒有寫就不會花嘛那我的意思是說如果我們把國防啦海巡啦因為包含我們軍人後備軍人的維持嘛等等這些"},{"start":4413.456,"end":4427.808,"text":"加計進來我是在想的是說這個是要問一下就是說像我們主計場我應該查的數字應該也沒有什麼錯誤大概在我們下一個下一頁"},{"start":4429.025,"end":4445.56,"text":"大概在我們這邊來講的話大概我們如果115年估計的總預算、稅率、稅出的話大概如果國防是5400多然後大概是佔我們稅出是18.08稅率大概19.17大概接近20%"},{"start":4450.584,"end":4463.031,"text":"所以我只是讓民眾了解就是說大概我們政府收入一百塊大概二十塊我們是要國防部的預算我這樣子應該可以吧 清楚嗎是 正確啦 好"},{"start":4464.684,"end":4480.517,"text":"因為數字是不會騙人的所以我大概是這樣講就是說那當然也有人講說會排擠掉就是說我們的這個社福跟經濟、教育等等尤其我們關心的什麼教文、社福其實我看一下這個歷年來這樣的預算"},{"start":4482.518,"end":4494.786,"text":"假設以社福還是維持在8,318教員還是維持在有稍微低一點大概還是5,566稍微受到影響比較多大概是經濟的預算還是說我們產業比較會賺錢所以這邊編的比較少想問一下主計這邊"},{"start":4505.765,"end":4533.421,"text":"我們是這樣子啊因為就是產業的部分並不是說編的比較少而是他有一些是基金的基金在做的就是因為我為什麼會從這個角度出發因為我關心說其實國防不是不重要但是我們就是要看我們到底有多少錢嘛對不對然後這樣子編下來的話我們國家是不是還是可以正常維持這樣的運作這樣子的一個發展今天跟委員報告因為教育啦社福有些事"},{"start":4534.361,"end":4554.943,"text":"依法法定該編列的事項所以每年都不得不編那過去幾年你知道我們有前瞻基礎建設用了8年的時間前瞻基礎建設那個大部分都是在經濟的部分跟地方建設的部分跟基礎建設的部分所以而且現在國防的預算我們有幾年有幾年特別他的支出是高峰的所以我們會有這種"},{"start":4556.565,"end":4571.582,"text":"高低不同的一個需求的變化所以你這樣總的看起來當然數字這個樣子如果拿場來看因為今天是談預算所以我們就稍微就這一點就是就教一下主計跟這個院長那再來的話下一頁"},{"start":4572.967,"end":4592.809,"text":"那就是說在我們第一批我剛看了一下就是我們的預算我們大概如果按照昨天的這樣的報告下大概是2949點我們就算差不多3000億那事實上來講這邊我們如果全受期的後勤維修妥善率的這個全受期的成本大概是610億餘元對不對"},{"start":4596.427,"end":4621.042,"text":"全受期不算在這裡應該是因為我昨天確實算起來是這樣不然我們現在這611億會編到115年、116年的後續的工務預算嗎跟委員報告一般這種購案它本身它會有一個2到3年的初期的備料所以它在這個時候沒有有一個後期的為止成本"},{"start":4622.083,"end":4637.415,"text":"那但是如果過了這個2030的初分備料之後呢他就會有一個維護後期的一個成本會出現那這一批的話大概如果這樣全受期的成本你後面假設有610億對不對"},{"start":4640.137,"end":4664.361,"text":"算起來是差不多這個樣子,那他是要延後到第三年、第四年才編進去,到往後的公務預算我們在預算案的30頁有提到我們現在幾項計畫就是M1-H、海馬斯、環甲型、博士2B還有標槍的全售期為止的一個成本的估計表"},{"start":4664.941,"end":4684.692,"text":"那有在這上面好沒關係我只是提醒部長跟院長就是說我們不要買了武器然後後面用了兩三年就沒有辦法維修我們已經把這個全售期的那全售期的話會編到哪裡你只要告訴我就好就公務預算嘛後面的公務預算對我只要很簡單的回答沒那麼複雜再來下一頁"},{"start":4688.023,"end":4714.058,"text":"我有去把過去的邏輯上面對不起,是編到還是編入我們的特別預算裡面所以後面全部都編到特別預算對,抱歉為什麼會這樣問是說我要先確定那個錢要編在哪裡只是這樣子所以30頁的那個全受期維持的後勤身分估計表就在我們的特別預算裡面"},{"start":4715.714,"end":4730.941,"text":"再來的話我們看一下就是過去的邏輯就是也剛跟陳委員講的是一樣就是美方他同意出售然後我們台灣這邊中華民國這邊特別條例過在這特別預算大概是這種程序"},{"start":4732.008,"end":4758.438,"text":"那今年為什麼分譜比較大就變成是好像我們先框一個一個為數的特別預算的金額然後我們再提特別條例然後我們有些的發價書或什麼等等也都還不確定比如說像我們現在合計的通過的條例是七千八百億對不對那第一波三千億第二波四千八百億第二批可是四千八百億現在川普壓在他的辦公室上面"},{"start":4759.238,"end":4776.358,"text":"對不對一月多就有所以你還不確定啊所以我編的這個東西就是說跟過去的程序是不太一樣過去的程序說我先同意出售我來編特別預算或是往之前先談好就是稍微我感覺是說這一次的流程怪怪的這樣子"},{"start":4777.678,"end":4798.946,"text":"這個不曉得國防部長有沒有什麼我們過去都是這樣就是由美方的公售意願之後我們就先行編列預算然後送進來之後那麼在還沒有其實大家一直在談發價數事實上還有一個前面的程序就是前面的LO不是,智慧國會的程序智慧國會的程序"},{"start":4799.506,"end":4822.469,"text":"他確定的這個部分之後呢我們這個預算案就會轉成公開的那如果還沒有職位國會產生機密所以這個就是一個計劃預算的概念就是先送出預算案給這個國會來審查那國會可以有相當的時間來審查這個預算案那如果等到發架數的話就會像今天這樣就會比較趕"},{"start":4823.63,"end":4840.778,"text":"好因為我是以前在博士班的時候我們雄風一的時候當然是跟中科院在合作所以我們也稍微了解一下美國這樣子的一個做法那基本上那時候我們在做這些的中美技術合作的時候一定是照剛剛院長講就是"},{"start":4842.45,"end":4863.327,"text":"美國國務院根據他全球戰略其實是根據美國啦戰略安全的需求然後接下來他認為應該這個東西要合作什麼跟哪些國家然後他才去知會國會說我要賣或者是做這些技術移轉這些情況然後之後你國會OK之後再從國務院這邊發回來所以基本上那個程序上會這樣走"},{"start":4864.679,"end":4893.672,"text":"所以當我們現在是說這個第一波跟第二波第二波我們又還不確定的時候川普又壓在那邊不發那我就覺得我們的這個第二波的採購這樣子有可能delay嘛也有可能不會啦如果是有可能delay甚至他不賣那我們這一批的預算第二波的4800億壓在這邊會形成什麼嚴重的後果或者是說對我們的戰力會有什麼樣子的"},{"start":4894.532,"end":4913.746,"text":"真空影響要怎麼彌補所以我們在去年11月就送出了這個特別條例那個時候我們就是在爭取時間上對我方最有利因為剛剛照部長所說美國必須有個公售意願出來那那個時候我們就要編列預算編列預算就告訴美國我們編了多少預算那美國會經由國會"},{"start":4915.587,"end":4937.565,"text":"進入國會 未進入國會 為智慧國會之前那是機密的進行進入國會之後 智慧國會他就變成公開那發駕輸就對因為他那個 我們現在停留在這個階段他大概是1月 今年的1月就躺在所以如果去年11月趕快大院趕快審 趕快通過這個案子也許現在已經進行到後續的程序去了那現在已經雖然晚了 我們還是極力爭取"},{"start":4938.966,"end":4961.529,"text":"國防部跟美方還是極力在爭取但是已經講到這邊就是說萬一沒有的話我還是希望國防部因為你講這很緊急嘛然後這是我們的韌性可是如果這個東西真的沒有我們假設一個最壞的狀況就跟我們在兵推一樣有很多種情況如果是一個最差的情況我會怎麼因應這個是我想要從國防部裡頭聽到的"},{"start":4963.103,"end":4987.493,"text":"有沒有這樣子的備案國防部跟每一個國軍都很不願意去假設到萬一沒有怎麼辦那國家的戰力我們國軍的安全萬一沒有怎麼辦我現在實在不敢想像我們只有一頭請全力往前去衝跟美方保持更多的這個互相的溝通跟協調跟要求甚至雙方都成立的專案辦公室就未來準時執行的工作沒關係 院長沒關係我們再回到這個我關心的預算的問題下一頁就是說"},{"start":4993.84,"end":5010.839,"text":"目前的話呢這個採購我看你們也寫了那這個我也不用你們回答反正現在的話就是交貨有一些delay那你們的報告也講了就是交貨率昨天的過去採購的東西的交貨率並不是那麼理想"},{"start":5011.42,"end":5031.015,"text":"那我只是希望說後續我們通過這樣的預算編列的時候國防部就可以公開的部分可以告訴我們說到底是有沒有到沒有到不然我買了F16這些東西都沒有到然後今年我聽昨天顧部長講的我今年9月才會飛到第一架那什麼時候會有"},{"start":5032.296,"end":5047.914,"text":"其他的架數什麼時候會好跟委員報告往年的特別條例我們也都是每年要向立法院實施專案報告就這個特別條例它的執行的進度都會跟大院做一個報告"},{"start":5048.51,"end":5066.778,"text":"對啊就是說我們討厭是說付了錢然後還看不到貨這個就是我們還是大家一起努力我們有提到就是現在持續案的時候的28案裡面那就是3案有延宕那我們就這些相關有一些提前有一些準時有一些延宕我們都是每年現在"},{"start":5068.208,"end":5094.855,"text":"特別條例也規定就是說這一次的特別條例是每個會期我們要跟大院做一個專案報告是是是這個一定要的不然我們都黑箱我就看不到再往下那我覺得這個我們過去也吵很多為什麼不能用公務預算買因為我想這個我們也就不用再吵了再往下一張好了我現在這個停留在這裡我一直覺得對這一張我現在非常的憤慨"},{"start":5096.482,"end":5123.653,"text":"就是在川普的眼中我們是偷了他的晶片然後我們跟他買武器的合約變成是他跟中國談判的籌碼然後講我們總統的時候也不講賴清德就講跟治理台灣的人談我覺得這個聽起來我是覺得很憤怒的為什麼你憑什麼罵我是小偷然後我花的錢比大陸還多"},{"start":5125.669,"end":5152.772,"text":"台積電的產能要外移我們的這個ART擴大的一個採購還比China多我們擴大採購在ART裡頭四年大舉採購848億每年212億中國才是170億美元的農產品然後我們為什麼不去跟他做反抗然後不跟他講說這個對我們實在是我覺得你應該知道這個也是國際政治的現實所以我們一定要自我"},{"start":5168.588,"end":5172.63,"text":"接下來我們請陳冠廷委員質詢,黃建斌委員請準備"},{"start":5197.964,"end":5207.468,"text":"你好我們請院長國防部長經濟部長麻煩再請國務院長國防部長備詢經濟部長備詢蔡委員好院長好"},{"start":5220.595,"end":5244.928,"text":"院長這一次的國防的這個特別條例因為經過很多次的朝野協商但是也看到很多國民黨在野黨內部其實有一些不同的聲音那經過努力的協商之後很遺憾商購跟委制的部分還是沒有被納入這一次的特別條例裡面那不管如何這7800億的這個軍購我想要請教一下"},{"start":5248.939,"end":5273.914,"text":"上購更為之他被排除後行政院後續的補救方式是要怎麼做今天總統有特別提到可能有包含再提特別條例或者是增加追加預算或者是在擴大一般預算裡面來去做這個挑戰我們把這個國防的這個預算的把它做是調整我想請教院長一下這些做法"},{"start":5274.534,"end":5287.53,"text":"我們要怎麼樣去把它推進因為如果這一檔他一開始就不支持我們把這些商購為之放進去那我們再這一次再如果提出特別條例的話這次會有什麼不同"},{"start":5288.95,"end":5310.963,"text":"謝謝委員我也知道委員在這一次的各種的審查的會議當中確實是從各方的這個角度來為這個國防預算的特別預算的特別預算的特別條例做了很多的努力代表特別的感謝我想這個是國家所需要的那我們如何來因應後續的發展首先應該是讓"},{"start":5313.507,"end":5324.555,"text":"國會多數的這個在野黨的委員知道目前這樣的狀況將會使我們影響到國內本土軍工相關的廠商他的產線來做一個掀起的準備"},{"start":5326.055,"end":5350.584,"text":"也會影響到我們跟國際合作的機會甚而會影響到我們國內在民主供應鏈上無人機產業這個產業鏈的形成這個影響是非常大的那這樣的發展下來的話我們失去了國際的信任也失去了自我軍工產業發展的機會甚至於我們在整個國防的這個防衛上面我們不論是在這個決策"},{"start":5353.615,"end":5375.23,"text":"全域增資以及指管決策或者是高效打擊各方面乃至於防衛韌性都有不足所以這四塊都有不足那最重要的我們也失去了本土產業自主發展的這個拼圖所以未來我們到底要形成是用另外一個特別條例加特別預算來應處或者是我們用各種形式的追加預算以及"},{"start":5376.451,"end":5397.212,"text":"部分能否納入到年度的公募預算當中我們政跟國防部在以後每一年的如何的推敲如何來形成再做個嚴密的一個討論我們希望就內容程序而言就時效而言能夠有效的而且能夠應付到未來每一年的需求讓我們採取一個最有力的方式"},{"start":5397.853,"end":5424.256,"text":"那之後再請大院朝野各黨團的委員能夠看到剛剛所說過的目前的幾個缺失能夠來彌補從時效上內容上來彌補院長有幾個方案我們來思考一下因為我們現在已經計定事實了維持三個商會沒有在這一次的特別條例裡面那同時軍購我們最新得到的消息是至少在這個美國總統接受專訪的時候他有提到說這140多億美金有可能"},{"start":5425.417,"end":5446.594,"text":"過也有可能不過所以這是操之在別人身上的那操之在我們身上的就是我們自己能不能夠用其他的方案來去推動我們的國人的自己的無人載具的能力首先在野黨今天稍早有提到有沒有可能是以經濟部主導的無人載具的特別條例"},{"start":5447.435,"end":5472.036,"text":"那我講他們說以經濟部作為主導但是不代表說國防部科技部不能夠在裡面擔任重要的角色就是說在也已經是多數的狀況之下我們的方案是什麼我們當然可以提出特別條例以國防部為主以國防部來主導的這個方案我們當然也可以用追加預算由國防部來提出追加預算但是除了這兩個之外的方案"},{"start":5472.697,"end":5493.707,"text":"有沒有其他方案能夠去思考我為什麼要再提出其他方案的思考模式是因為假設三個禮拜前他們把商購跟委制全部排除掉三個禮拜後為什麼他們會重新接受我們國防部支持的最佳預算或者是特別條例所以我們必須要思考說在他們內部裡面怎麼樣創造可能性"},{"start":5495.087,"end":5518.249,"text":"國民黨內部現在我們很清楚他大概是有幾個不同的聲音一個是比較務實的聲音一個基本上就是跟中共唱和的聲音那我們要增加最多的夥伴減少最早的敵人我們才可以專注我們現在面臨的挑戰所以這個部分我今天稍早在經濟部的質詢的時候我有請問部長部長是說要看這個院長這邊有沒有新的想法"},{"start":5518.869,"end":5541.547,"text":"那他們會來去進行相應的配合這個部分是不是請部長簡單先回應一下然後再請院長來看看我先說一下再請部長來說因為這個是界面的問題現在的7800億主導是國防部在主導那麼未來我們剛剛說的指管決策就是大腦那如果有了一些武器裝備但大腦不是由國防部來主導卻由經濟部來主導這個大腦"},{"start":5544.972,"end":5558.312,"text":"這個大腦跟這個手腳能不能配合得上我倒是懷疑不過如果裡面有這樣的一個想法我想要請國防部就這個做法它的缺失或這個做法是否可行國防部應該來做說明"},{"start":5560.595,"end":5578.78,"text":"委員的意思應該是說是專就無人載具特別是無人機的部分是不是這不是我的意思這是國民黨在野黨他們今天稍早提出來說提出無人載具的特別條例就是在補這一次三千多億的那一塊"},{"start":5579.48,"end":5595.81,"text":"那這三頁堆如果不是由國防部主導的話那當然就是他一定會喪失一些他的規格等等的可能就不是國防部所要的但是從此他又能夠培養無能載具我們的生產能力那怎麼樣把這些生產能力化為居民共用這就是另外一個挑戰"},{"start":5596.61,"end":5614.386,"text":"但是我就說我們現在能夠思考的所有方案裡面想要請部長來簡單回應一下他們的這個說法如果可行那怎麼做如果不可行我們要怎麼呼籲他們來調整畢竟如果是做軍用的話那他就是涉及到說這個"},{"start":5616.607,"end":5644.11,"text":"主管的我想我們直接講條例的話就涉及到主管機關那如果說是軍用的裝備的話那當然回到我們軍用來做的話就會涉及到主管機關是國防部的那應該是如果涉及類似經濟部這種統籌型計畫那要淋漓一個特別條例那能不能涵蓋這個軍用的裝備的部分由經濟部來主導我覺得這個可能有一些法律上面要思考的一些問題"},{"start":5645.791,"end":5660.476,"text":"所以我想剛剛院長已經說了我們也許各種方案我們都可以來檢討但是如果是純粹是國防部要用的這個軍用裝備的部分的話那特別是屬於這個"},{"start":5661.958,"end":5689.969,"text":"要特別條例的話那一定要考量到這個主管機關的問題這樣子如果主要是做軍用的話那部長有沒有可能分流處理就比方說在無人載具的時候在軍民共同的時候當然這些彈藥管制條例裡面所有的籌載或者是這些殺傷性的武器當然是不能夠由民間去做的但是在無人載具本身它在軍民通用的這個部分是不是經濟部就有機會有角色"},{"start":5691.714,"end":5717.359,"text":"那也就是說委員的意思就是說像我們這一次當然就是說火弓箭的部分是由我們軍備局因為按照強迫刀藥管這不可能有民間嘛所以我們在軍備局委制之後他要公開招標的時候他也是按政府採購法那他公開採購的時候是採購沒有火弓箭的部分那最後再由火弓箭的部分再由軍備局來做那這兩個是不是我意思說這樣子有沒有辦法某種程度補充一些量能"},{"start":5719.412,"end":5739.569,"text":"補充我們這次缺失的這3000多億用途跟需求是不大一樣的東西今天部長稍早也有提出一個是需求一個是供給一個是提出需求一個是提出供給那我們現在到底要怎麼樣做才可以把我們3000多億這個本來不被包括的能夠把它包括進去就是我們一直要思考的方案"},{"start":5740.109,"end":5754.481,"text":"所以我們除了這個譴責這個把我們無人載具整個閹割掉的這個軍口條例之外我們現在要思考的是補救的方案怎麼樣才可以在現行方案之下能夠往前走所以我才請教部長這個有沒有這樣分流的規劃"},{"start":5756.308,"end":5771.937,"text":"我會請國防部為主那麼他來提出未來的需求那因為經濟部現在我們也有一個無人機產業的統籌型計畫無人機產業發展的統籌型計畫那我相信那個都是比較商用的為主的那如果要進到"},{"start":5774.238,"end":5799.666,"text":"軍規 軍用的部分那應該是國防部為主但是兩邊這個界面能不能化開以及之後會不會有什麼影響我們還是值得來研討那如果有一個方向出現行不可行 可不可行的問題結論出現我會委請我們在大院裡面的朝野黨團來就未來該尋哪一條路徑來完成這個最後這塊拼圖我們來做更多的討論和協商"},{"start":5801.291,"end":5825.372,"text":"院長今天稍早國防部來跟我們解釋預算的被凍減三的部分的時候有一些這一些案項是國防部向經濟部來去申請的研發案那是不是有被凍結或被提案凍結那我的意思就是說經濟部的能量是可以被國防部所用的我們如果我請部長說明一下"},{"start":5827.457,"end":5854.951,"text":"因為經濟部還是在企業界甚至於有一些法人界我們提供它更大的製造能量或研發能量出來但是需求方的部分恐怕還是要國防部因為它如果是軍用的需求的話規格還是要他們開採購的金額可能也要編在他們那邊才有辦法要不然變成是我們採購給他們用這好像怪怪的"},{"start":5855.754,"end":5880.848,"text":"所以可能還是要有,當然我也同意經濟部可以扮演更多的角色我是樂觀起承也非常同意好謝謝部長老實說我講這句話我並不認同說一定要有經濟部主導甚至我認為這本來就應該是有公安部主導因為我們是要用來軍用的目標但是在已經沒有其他選擇的狀況之下我才說請大家想方案"},{"start":5881.508,"end":5907.731,"text":"因為我們很遺憾的沒有多數那沒有多數的狀況之下在有人釋出相對的可能性的時候我們怎麼樣去把它做整合這才是我的問題因為我們現在要的是補救方案那當然如果可以的話我認為在一般預算裡面用計劃性的預算跨年度的預算其實我們公安部有蠻多這樣子的做法的是有機會再去往前推的"},{"start":5909.012,"end":5927.613,"text":"我想今年台灣的經濟成長率也在擴充我相信稅務也會擴充因為稅務擴充之後在一般的預算裡面也有機會來去擴充來去彌補我們這次3000多億左右的無人載具以及一些AI指管這個部分"},{"start":5929.284,"end":5946.735,"text":"其實就拿我們民雄航太園區來講民雄航太園區他現在有中科院來去做主導當然是非常好的軍規軍用這些大型的無人機等等的運動可是他的西部的地方就真的是需要經濟部財政部還有科技部以及外交部來去招商引資"},{"start":5947.535,"end":5966.167,"text":"那這一些馬上可以均民兩用的這些產品如果再透過好的平台甚至像DIUDIO類型的這個平台就能夠快速為軍方所用那所以這就是我前幾週我特別在跟部長講break one"},{"start":5967.208,"end":5989.938,"text":"這個BRAVE ONE這個平台就等於是更加創新的一個平台把產業界、民間、學界、創投方全部都還有直接在第一線的戰鬥方就是由烏克蘭士兵直接提出需求在他們的網站上面那這個網站或者說這個平台的支援方就是經濟部、科技部還有他們的國防部"},{"start":5990.538,"end":6017.755,"text":"以及他們的陸軍直接在上面士兵提出需求馬上進行所有的這些參與方科技工程師看到提出他們的解方解方一經驗證馬上大量生產大量擴產那他們這些工程師不是軍方的人員他們也不是一開始也沒有拿國防部的錢但是他們就可以快速的應用來快速的投產他們有什麼一個網站就一個網站你是什麼樣你是技術提供者"},{"start":6018.195,"end":6031.445,"text":"你是創投提供者你想要投資還是你想要生產每個人都可以在那個平台裡面我今天講這一個概念這其實就是DIU最早的概念就是讓每一個能有機會參與的"},{"start":6033.266,"end":6062.017,"text":"小企業小創投都能夠參與我為什麼講這個因為4800億或者是說現在140多億美金的軍售他假設在最最最最最最最糟糕的狀況之下如果被暫緩因為傳媒會之後或者是等等的可能性出現的時候我們該怎麼辦其實剛才他們都在講政協黨都在說你們的軍購很多東西都還沒有到啊都還在延宕啊"},{"start":6063.049,"end":6091.367,"text":"那所以怎麼辦所以就是要有自己國家的產能啊那所以要怎麼辦所以你們要自己生產自己研發啊所以如果當我們對外軍售遇到外交上的阻難的時候我們該怎麼辦增加我們的產線增加我們的這個彈藥的這個擴充擴充我們這些彈藥的能力啊但是這一次全部都被阻斷掉了那怎麼辦商購跟委資就必須要具備所以我們的論述也是很清楚每次都說你這個又嚴大所以為什麼我們要跟美國軍購"},{"start":6093.038,"end":6117.088,"text":"如果你們真的這樣覺得的話那就是要把商貨跟委制把它完備嘛那不論如何這個部分我還是請院長能夠去思考一下各種可能的方案接下來的下半年我相信我們外交的這個挑戰會更援軍那請院長來好好協調看看有沒有辦法在現有的框架不管是一般預算還是用各個部會的能量把它具備我們無人載具的能力"},{"start":6117.827,"end":6122.573,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒跟指教 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢 謝謝卓院長相關的閣員的備詢 謝謝接下來質詢委員質詢之後我們將會休息十分鐘我們現在接下來請黃建斌委員進質詢"},{"start":6144.674,"end":6148.737,"text":"謝謝院長有請卓院長還有國防部部長麻煩再請卓院長國防部長備詢黃偉豪院長好院長我們川喜會引起國際間很大的關注"},{"start":6166.38,"end":6185.391,"text":"那川習會之後川普總統的一些言論也讓大家很擔憂其中一部分就是川普總統在川習會之後公開表示對於百億台美軍售可能會簽也可能不會簽甚至直言台灣軍售是一張很好的談判籌碼"},{"start":6187.793,"end":6202.447,"text":"這代表台灣能不能夠買到武器完全取決於美中兩國交換了什麼樣的利益當我們把最具有優勢的晶片送到美國農產品也棄手之後我們還剩下什麼可以跟商人性格的川普來交換"},{"start":6203.488,"end":6227.056,"text":"另外一個擔憂就是美方軍購常態性的延宕跟財務的無效性我想美方對台軍售延宕已經不是新聞從F-16B的戰機到AGM-154C的滑翔炸彈MK48的魚雷全部都進入落後甚至連台灣早就編列預算2121枚的次增飛彈到現在連發價處都還拿不到"},{"start":6230.017,"end":6250.659,"text":"那原先我們要採購的裝備一件都進不來那國家安全早就已經出現嚴重的空窗那面臨當前急迫的這個台海局勢那國防部要如何確保這筆龐大的公帑不會再度成為這個肉包子打狗變成一張看得到吃不到的空頭支票"},{"start":6252.608,"end":6266.903,"text":"本席支持軍購的立場從來都沒有改變謝謝我們也通過了中央政府新式戰機採購特別預算以及中央政府海空戰力提升計畫採購特別預算分別編列了398.45億元以及293.2億元"},{"start":6271.067,"end":6281.832,"text":"那當然還有2025年9月11日行政院院會通過的因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案編列的357億元這些都是實際的例子"},{"start":6286.534,"end":6310.68,"text":"但是總是有一些人為了政治上想要來上色當在野黨在這一次的軍購條例中刪除了中共軍事威脅這些字眼的時候馬上就立委上色說是怕中國但是其實有時候我們當條文失去了彈性的時候反而讓我們中共政府綁手綁腳那我們現在就有可能會遇到這樣的一個例子那這邊要請教院長就是"},{"start":6312.021,"end":6323.041,"text":"當依據媒體的這個相關報導美國的對台軍售很有可能沒有第二期的出售那針對這樣的情況我們的因應方式如何"},{"start":6325.219,"end":6334.302,"text":"其實在川普總統回到美國的這個時候的前後美國在國會的幾多位重要的參議員國會的領袖也紛紛的表達應該要緊速的通過核准這140億的對台軍售"},{"start":6342.085,"end":6362.241,"text":"一直我們整個看起來美國對台有幾個原則第一個對台的政策並沒有改變第二個對中國並沒有提出任何的保證承諾第三個他們還是希望台灣海峽台海要整個維持安定跟穩定所以不希望有任何的武力強迫來改變這個現狀在這個前提底下"},{"start":6362.961,"end":6387.867,"text":"如何讓台灣有更足夠的自我防衛能力應該符合雙方的利益也符合國際上保持台海和平穩定的利益我想在這個共同的利益跟前提底下我們還是要極力爭取我們現在已經跟美方談好的下一批的這個發架書的內容甚至更多的未來雙方在軍事上面的合作所以院長跟部長這邊是有信心第二期的軍售是為主旗完成"},{"start":6388.581,"end":6416.17,"text":"我們全力來爭取這個是我們具有國家國防的需要也考慮到我們國家財政的負擔能力是許可所以我們才有這樣的提出相關的特別條例跟特別預算謝謝院長的回覆院長這一次的美國美軍這個我對美的軍售條例總計是來到7800億元那當後續的武器購買出現問題的時候我們不能只是被動的等待我們必須要先弄清楚一點就是因為這個是軍售"},{"start":6417.91,"end":6439.164,"text":"所以這是軍售的特別條例跟一般國防預算編列的常態性預算是不同的那特別預算的法制化要有其必要性跟急迫性不然不可能每一樣我們都用特別預算的方式來通過那接下來我要請教院長第二個問題就是院長這一次對美國美軍條例編列的是7800億元假設美國不願意對台繼續軍售後續的經費我們該怎麼樣來使用"},{"start":6448.322,"end":6462.104,"text":"如果他沒有通過第二批的這個項目的話那依照這個特別條例的規定我們就沒有辦法來這裡做報告,預算就沒有"},{"start":6463.342,"end":6489.752,"text":"院長其實本席是強調這個是軍售條例就是為什麼因為所有的巡委都要用軍售的方式來處理嘛就是從本席一開始就說的所以當美國他沒有辦法進行軍售的時候我們必須思考去跟其他的國家來洽談軍售嘛但軍售涉及的是政府跟政府之間的作為如果當初條文這麼針對中國的時候要對要向其他的各國來進行軍售的洽談恐怕難以為繼那"},{"start":6491.653,"end":6517.428,"text":"我們的假想敵我想也不能只是只有針對對岸而已國家跟國家之間爆發戰爭不一定他提早就可以鎖定是誰像我國之前跟菲律賓也因為海域的問題也有強烈的對峙這樣印象還很深刻甚至要引發戰爭的危機如果說我們的國防的設計概念都是以對岸作為假想敵來部署並不是以整體的防衛作戰"},{"start":6519.029,"end":6535.285,"text":"來思考的話那所購買的武器就並不一定可以派上用場啊所以接下來我要再請教院長 部長是那因為這一條是軍售談論經費後續沒有辦法使用有沒有打算改為商售或者是偽製的經費還是修飾不編列部長"},{"start":6538.728,"end":6566.665,"text":"跟委員報告如果您講的是指這個特別條例這個特別條例已經鎖定是軍售而且項目都已經也特定了能力的建構項目也都特定所以如果我想我們國防部一定會考量到各種的一個可能的狀況那所以我們也一再提出來國防自主的重要性所以剛剛陳冠廷委員也一再提到國防自主本來就是我們要"},{"start":6567.485,"end":6593.292,"text":"在國安法裡面特別律定所以我們本來就是要透過我們的這個委制當然委制主要當然我們中科院當然是一個重要的一個角色那我們中科院本身還可以跟其他的國家來進行合作那這樣子的我沒有辦法在這方面透露但是基本上可以透過中科院跟其他的國家來進行這些相關的共同研發也好 技術移轉也好"},{"start":6593.892,"end":6615.592,"text":"那這個是一個可能性那另外一個可能性當然就是商購那剛剛陳永康委員也在提到商購本來就是一個現在很重要的一個美國也好或者我們不只限於美國其他國家而且美國你可以去看他對外他一直在鼓勵用商售的方式來進行因為這樣可以快速的取得那所以如果真的沒有"},{"start":6617.834,"end":6638.888,"text":"我想我們還是審慎樂觀會有這個第二批的軍口那我們也同時會去獲得一些商業對其他國家的接觸包括美國在那裡也有可能是直接來進行商購也有可能跟其他的國家那這個部分本來就在我們考量所以部長其實錢不是不編嗎還是會編嗎對不對那就沒有辦法編在這個"},{"start":6641.79,"end":6663.755,"text":"對 我的意思是說之後還是會編碼跟委員報告 委員剛剛說第一條中共的威脅這個拿掉是保持彈性但是第五條把這個六加四項明寫在這裡就綁死了沒有任何的彈性這是一個立法上極大的矛盾造成未來可能不知道的一個困擾我們是假設啦因為我們想有時候如果真的發生我們要先準備好嘛"},{"start":6664.275,"end":6689.461,"text":"那我想要面對各種情況要做因應嘛就像賴清德先生總統今天也提到說要透過追加預算方式以及提高年度預算方式來提升我們國防戰力那院長您之前也提到說要再編列4700億的軍國預算那我想這些東西都會遇到一個同樣的問題就是我們要充實我們的國防實力必須要留意的就是我們不能只依靠美國給我們支持嘛"},{"start":6690.522,"end":6705.88,"text":"而是要多多跟其他的國家去洽談軍售無論是軍售或是商貨的部分我們要增加這些武器購買的渠道才不會傻傻的等所以無人機就是一個國防自主一個很重要的項目那我們這就安排在特別"},{"start":6706.52,"end":6722.932,"text":"條例裡面就是希望運用特別預算的這種預算的一個穩定性來建構我們的國防自主因為無人機它有一個特色就是說本席的意思是說我們不能只有仰賴美國這個國家對 無人機就是正好是我們發展國防自主突破的一個很好的一個"},{"start":6732.079,"end":6746.297,"text":"機會之創啊因為我們有相當好的半導體我們有相當好的晶片我們有相當好的一些能夠建構通訊模組自主導航的這個能力的項目那如果再加上跟國外有一些合作我想我們無人機的產業跟"},{"start":6747.778,"end":6767.149,"text":"油光不提出需求之後就能夠建立我覺得這是一個很好的那在俄武戰爭甚至美伊衝突裡面都可以看到它扮演一個關鍵性的戰略那過去當然有一些太昂貴的這種什麼飛彈系統那除了我們中科院可以自行研製之外民間是沒有辦法但"},{"start":6769.29,"end":6794.064,"text":"但無人機就完全是不一樣的部長其實我們在委員會的時候也聊過很多次了包括說整個我們的建構防空系統裡面我們是不是真的要依賴這麼昂貴的飛彈系統特別是我們其實也在想到我們所有的防衛系統都是靠陸上的這些雷達如果當它被摧毀掉的時候整個台灣之盾會垮掉所以這個我們會後我們在委員會的時候再去討論那本席想要再繼續請教的就是院長就是說"},{"start":6795.694,"end":6811.819,"text":"我們剛剛為什麼提到會跟國家採購這件事情就是因為日本高市早苗內閣在2026年4月的時候他正式通過修改他的防衛裝備遺傳三原則以及其實施方針他徹底的廢除對殺傷性武器的外銷限制"},{"start":6812.339,"end":6829.302,"text":"那這一項政策也轉變讓日本的企業得以將他的主戰坦克護衛艦戰鬥機等武器向他國來銷售那這一些武器對台灣來看是幫助很大請問我們有沒有可能會向日本提出軍購或商購的要求"},{"start":6829.842,"end":6844.118,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員提到我想防衛武器移轉三原則它有兩個很大的含義第一個當然就是要將日本的這個軍工產業再往前推一把日本本來就有相當基礎那它這是第一個第二個"},{"start":6844.699,"end":6870.329,"text":"日本在印太的區域的和平穩定透過這個防衛武器移轉三原者他就會扮演一個非常重要的角色我們可以看到他對菲律賓跟澳大利亞都現在開始進行相關的合作要提供這些相關的護衛艦那個澳洲也跟日本採購最上級艦那現在就是防衛移轉三原者的規定裡面他們的規定裡面還是要跟他有一個移轉的協定這個移轉的協定限於17個國家"},{"start":6872.29,"end":6899.2,"text":"可是日本告訴轉某說台灣有事日本就有事啊說也停然啊台日友好一直大家都是相信的嘛所以這個部分是不是也可以來嘗試有沒有考慮做這樣的嘗試我想我沒有辦法現在跟委員做過多的透露但是我覺得有一些我們台日之間共同為印太區域和平穩定確實可以互相來來花費貢獻一些力量"},{"start":6899.54,"end":6919.294,"text":"了解 謝謝部長部長 最後本席還是要說國防預算我們絕對支持我買好的買有用的買能夠到貨的那但是同時我們也要讓購買武器的渠道多元這是今天本席質詢的重點那台灣的國防設計也要更全面因為我們要面對是整個"},{"start":6920.535,"end":6947.794,"text":"太平洋的環境而不是只有針對對岸我想這個都有可能會發生的事情那如果單靠一個某一個國家的武器然後受限於人的機會就變大那最重要的是今天賴總統在談話的時候也提到說要向國軍弟兄姊妹表達最高的敬意最重要的就是要期盼院長能夠儘速的編列預算來讓我們軍人加薪我想唯有讓他們的付出"},{"start":6948.454,"end":6959.02,"text":"受到應有的回報他們也才能夠安心的保家衛國這也是我們唯一可以替他們做到的事情那這部分再請院長我們從來不會輕視到對國軍弟兄們的照顧跟福利"},{"start":6963.542,"end":6984.627,"text":"所以關於加薪的部分我們已經說過了我們是希望依照憲法的程序把行政立法兩院的權責分清楚權力分立的原則底下我們會做我們過去也做了蠻多的過去幾年我們從各項加薪光去年一年就147億加薪各種的加給在裡面未來也是如此那在此同時我也更希望除了對"},{"start":6985.427,"end":6996.435,"text":"他的福利照顧之外那麼從新式武器來補強國軍戰力對國軍弟兄更是多一層的安全的保障也是讓他們更有尊嚴的在戰場上守衛國家所必須的"},{"start":7640.674,"end":7669.556,"text":"好,抱怨會我們繼續開會接下來請王安祥委員請質詢翁嘉斌委員請準備感謝院長,有請卓院長跟國安部長國安部再請卓院長、國安部長備選"},{"start":7677.12,"end":7694.049,"text":"黃委員好 院長好部長好我們再加上現在送進來特別條例的88億大概我們這個依北約標準、NATO的標準加上退伏跟海巡的部分大概就是8827億年度的預算應該已經過了3%雖然離川普總統說的還有一點距離不過我想我們今年應該可以達到3%的一個水準"},{"start":7706.721,"end":7727.895,"text":"首先我從二月上任之後其實我就很關注這個議題就是確實能夠讓發價書LOA的部分能夠生效我想他有兩個要件不管是院長還是部長都一直在強調一個就是要簽署一個就是要交付投機款因為我們現在特別條例已經到這個程度"},{"start":7730.403,"end":7754.928,"text":"這個這樣的進度了所以基本上看起來現在應該可以先動用應該依這個預算法84條的部分應該是可以先這個動用這個部分去做簽約的動作部長應該這樣說應該沒有錯是那個因為今天上午已經通過經過特別預算的案含送立法審議那我們就會依照預算法的84條然後先就報請這個行政院統一來"},{"start":7757.288,"end":7774.956,"text":"先行店戶這個竣購案的首期所以就法治面上現在應該是完備的,應該是OK先行店戶等到預算通過之後再把它規定回來我二月以來就開始一直去研究國軍的建案作業相關的一些規定"},{"start":7778.237,"end":7806.367,"text":"那這一頁投影片可以看到這是我們過去的FMS的一個程序可能包含這個需求然後做細分然後就會有一個LOR for P&A所以過去我們常常在講這個P&A然後就會有一個整規整規的部分然後就會送行政跟立法院然後就會有一個LOR for LOA我想這個也很重要然後智慧國會然後就會有一個LOA"},{"start":7807.64,"end":7818.225,"text":"不過可以看一下下一頁投影片就是以這一次特別條例的部分我以我們拿到的所有這個監案程序上的日期我做了一些排序"},{"start":7819.554,"end":7842.959,"text":"那看起來我們跟美方好像過去常常在P&A上其實要做一些磋商目前看起來好像美國跟我們可能是更有默契我們好像很多好像不需要P&A好像直接就可以進入到比較後段的部分包括LOR4這樣部長應該是吧?是因為我們跟美國好像溝通程序上是比較OK的是不是?"},{"start":7843.739,"end":7869.935,"text":"因為我們這一次是商議之後他們另外有一個保證性函然後來做作為一個基礎然後所以但是一般來講還是要有PMA先有一個ROM就出估報價然後有PMA然後再有LOA這一次我們雙方對這些案項有做過相當的討論"},{"start":7870.795,"end":7885.184,"text":"對,因為比較特別,其實這個部長可以看這頁投影片我們都是這個LOA,我們才做細分跟這個整規啦那這個等一下也可能部長可以跟我們這個說明一下,大概現在的一個建案的一個程序"},{"start":7886.161,"end":7903.173,"text":"那我是在這裡建議啦是不是說我們可以在那個LOR4LOA的時候基本上可能用一些比較機敏的會議的部分是不是就可以來跟立法院做一下說明會不會對後續的整個這個建案的程序會比較有幫助"},{"start":7904.64,"end":7928.659,"text":"我們原則上LOR或LOA之後會有一個就您講的一個細分因為我們現在有作戰需求文件嘛然後有一個細分然後細分之後我們還有一個期成功項期成功項之後我們還有一個整體獲得規劃書那這個整規書編定以後這個建案才正式成立那建案正式成立的時候呢美國那邊不一定有拿到"},{"start":7929.96,"end":7949.731,"text":"他已經啟動了智慧國會的程序所以我們在以前的時候都會在這個時候我們如果編列的話我們就會向立法院來做報告如果說是還沒有智慧國會就是採機密專報的方式那已經智慧國會就公開了對 所以我剛剛說就是以過去的這個是過去的程序那這一張是現在的程序"},{"start":7950.672,"end":7975.948,"text":"所以我的建議是不是就是跟這個部長建議就是說如果要這個程序比較順暢尤其在前面的某些階段上尤其我剛剛說的LOA是不是就可以給這個立法院有一些部分的資訊因為LOA只是一個我們的一個需求文件我知道但是我們接下來建案的程序還沒有完整規劃之前那還有相關的這些系統分析"},{"start":7977.148,"end":7992.414,"text":"的一個需求然後另外有一個騎乘工項的需求所以這些要做一個整體的規劃之後然後才能夠就成本啊那個各個案項或相關的騎乘啊等等那這個時候來報告"},{"start":7994.395,"end":8022.494,"text":"就編列預算來報告會比較完整一點如果還沒有完成建案部長有看到這個程序嘛就那個114年的8月您講的好像是說在我們還沒有完成這個整規書之前就來報我只是跟委員報告就是說整規書完成建案之後會有比較詳細的一個規劃再跟委員做報告會比較詳盡一點就是就這樣啦 不然因為你看齁在那個行政院這個部分齁"},{"start":8023.657,"end":8037.068,"text":"從8月到11月送到立法院其實這裡也過了三個月啦部長還記得上一次特別條例的程序嗎對我們11月27送特別條例所以這三個月是在做一些討論嗎還是說"},{"start":8039.967,"end":8059.083,"text":"您是說,因為我們這個是特別預算,它又有另外一個程序,它要先送條例,條例是先審條例以後再送預算嗎?是是所以條例要通過才能夠送預算?對,因為後面就是LOA就跑出來了,所以後來就會,我的意思是說後來就會有一些覺得時程上好像滿緊迫的部分"},{"start":8059.824,"end":8081.752,"text":"就是1月到3月的時候,因為那時候我也剛進理法院所以我們當時的規劃是先送特別條例,希望條例通過之後我們就先向預算案送進來不用等到美國一定要完成智慧國會的程序那如果他在審議的過程已經智慧國會就可以列公開我們當時特別條例是希望能夠通過之後就送預算案進來"},{"start":8082.392,"end":8100.574,"text":"所以我的意思是說,是不是比較前段的部分,就可以提供一些立法院不必要的資訊也許對後面的整個程序進行會比較順暢那我想昨天其實在專報的時候,其實很多委員提到這個事情"},{"start":8101.525,"end":8117.03,"text":"大概現在我們在對美軍購的部分大概就是按照這個程序首先我們會在台北財務組會做一些結會會到駐美的代表團這邊另外我們就會有兩個帳戶一個是聯邦儲蓄的帳戶跟DFAS的帳戶"},{"start":8119.793,"end":8140.493,"text":"那其實昨天有很多委員提到就是有關於那個在那個聯邦主席賬戶的部分昨天好像這個院長也說那個都可以諮詢就沒有確定的時候其實是這個錢會不會付出去對那另外就是這一塊DVAS這一塊我覺得它在運作的時候實際上會有一些金額的落差"},{"start":8141.533,"end":8159.188,"text":"我不曉得這塊落差的話應該要怎麼處理,比如說它有一些不管是在儲蓄帳戶或者是DFA,DFA這邊也會有一些差距跟委員報告,就是說我們要進入FRB,就是你講的那個聯邦儲蓄帳戶裡面的那個部分應該還是屬於我們所擁有的"},{"start":8164.152,"end":8188.634,"text":"我們即使要匯出去,審計單位也是要關切,你為什麼要匯出這筆錢所以他們如果有一些金額的落差,看起來最後一段好像是要匯回台灣在匯回台灣之前,那些餘額的部分如果結案之後,餘額的部分要匯回我現在那個圖的左邊的部分"},{"start":8190.727,"end":8211.755,"text":"對,這張案完結之後,有決議款就要退回到來國庫所以他們大概程序會來清查?對,就是時效上、時間上、程序上大概會比如說我們現在一個八案的建案程序,大概它的時程會怎麼樣?有些建案的程序會是蠻多年期對,像這次可能就是要8年,也是8年再做一個週期嗎?"},{"start":8213.527,"end":8232.762,"text":"他每個案子執行的期限都不一樣,結案之後有結一款就會把他要回來所以每個案項執行的期程都不一定對,所以像現在投影片這個案子,我們最近有去看有關於這個已經是絕標案子後來我發現這個案子其實當初是104年到108年簽約的,他本來在期程你講的那個海馬是嗎?"},{"start":8241.368,"end":8250.832,"text":"不是,這是一個防空系統,現在我上面的一個防空系統本來是TWD GCO,本來是104到108年的一個建案不過現在看起來它已經延續到109,做了一頁展延到109到114年"},{"start":8261.291,"end":8287.445,"text":"對 所以我要問的部分就是說這個展言的部分是不是所謂的延續啊就回到剛剛的問題啊這個什麼樣的這個LOA的展言我們必須要知會我們立法院的部分LOA展言也就是說美方我們跟台美雙方會有一個同意做一個發價書的一個展言那就把這個之音的期程再往後拉這樣對 所以LOA的展言是用預算法54條嗎"},{"start":8289.925,"end":8317.617,"text":"沒有因為這個美國的軍售案都是屬於美國對我們的安全承諾然後合約是由美國的政府跟美國合約商簽所以他這樣子的一個展言也就是他跟我們之間的這個承諾在這個部分上面大家討論是不是要將執行的期限再往後移我們是不是有定一個金額多少金額以上的LOA也許這個要展言就必須要到立法院來說明"},{"start":8320.074,"end":8339.102,"text":"一定金額以上是不是要到立法院?像這個案子就是直接就斬言了,104就已經斬言下去,108就已經斬言了這個部分可能我要再確認一下那也許會後再跟部長就交一下這個其實昨天也很多委員提到,就是反甲型無人機這個部分"},{"start":8340.755,"end":8363.202,"text":"這個好像簽署的比較慢,部長是不是要再跟大家說一下這個狀況是大概是這樣?您是說那個Otis的5月16號是嗎?因為Otis的那個發價的現在是草案,我昨天有聽部長解釋就我了解他們在內部審查有做了一些修正,所以發價書的草案就給了比較晚一點"},{"start":8363.662,"end":8391.054,"text":"對,所以也就是說其實他本來看起來是同一批,可是你看現在發價數就比較慢對不對?是他們有做一些調整嗎?他是在智慧國會的那個案裡面的其中一個案那發價數的草案給的比較晚好,那所以這個我是不是問一下,這個當初我們剛剛看到,現在大概都說LR4、LOA了嘛這個大概時間,部長還記得大概時間是什麼時候嗎?當初LR4、LOA的時候"},{"start":8393.179,"end":8414.351,"text":"您說當時我們發出LOR或LOA的時間點我必須要再...沒關係,這個應該是時間啦應該是七、八月間吧,我記得是這樣子其實大家現在也非常關切第二批的部分所以我剛剛一直在講介外的程序"},{"start":8415.151,"end":8429.334,"text":"因為第二批的部分現在蠻多委員還有我想社會大眾都非常關注那我們在這個因為我們會細分細分可能會有一些不替代的方案我不曉得如果現在第二批有一些狀況不曉得有沒有什麼替代方案"},{"start":8432.557,"end":8457.552,"text":"我剛剛也有跟這個前面的委員有報告就是說他要看這個案項的不同那我現在也沒辦法公布是哪些案項所以我不是跟您回答我只是希望說不要有任何的一個能力的部分大概就是這樣那這些相關的這些需要建置的這些能力的部分如果說"},{"start":8460.651,"end":8489.286,"text":"我們相信我們還是樂觀啦我也希望啦那當然我們就要靠這個相關其他的這個程序我剛剛也有報告就是說中科院也有可能透過這個跟其他國外的廠商透過技術移轉透過共同研發透過共同產製來進行那因為有一些案像中科院本來就有一些能量那還有一些部分當然就是說我們"},{"start":8490.286,"end":8518.346,"text":"也有可能透過跟國外商購的部分來取得好,感謝部長因為時間關係好,那沒關係我們會後也許就叫部長接下來就是這個,我看到這次預算是受期跟維護成本在第一年有編制像我看到預算書最後面30月的部分其實就有編制部分的受期我先問一下受期的計算大概是怎麼處理的?"},{"start":8519.305,"end":8540.796,"text":"跟售期的部分是這樣子就是說他有兩個概念一個是有關那個初步的備份料件的這個部分也就是說我們講的就是說他的一個獲得的放在一個軍事投資的預算籌過的裡面他會有一個兩到三年的初次備份的料件這個是含在那個軍頭裡面的那這個時候暫時不用編這個後勤的"},{"start":8546.919,"end":8560.663,"text":"這個後勤的成本過了兩三年之後這個出資備份料件完了之後那就要有一個運作跟資源的成本這個就有維護的成本部長這一次我收進來那個海馬士數量是有差別的"},{"start":8562.14,"end":8579.716,"text":"這個原來是1203箱現在是4320枚我們一箱六枚來看其實差了差不多720箱左右不曉得這個狀況部長有沒有看到還哪是火箭精準火箭的部分我的了解是那個項目沒有"},{"start":8597.52,"end":8601.948,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝謝謝王翔委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長 國防部長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢 馬文君委員請準備"},{"start":8629.913,"end":8641.937,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府機關上的官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請我們卓院長還有顧部長跟拱部長對不起,第三位是顧部長跟拱部長好,麻煩請卓院長、國防部長、經濟部長備詢"},{"start":8654.7,"end":8664.18,"text":"總委員好院長好兩位部長好來我們現在看看一個東西請問院長跟部長你們用過AI去生成圖片嗎"},{"start":8665.865,"end":8692.087,"text":"有沒有來我剛剛我來之前我要AI幫我生產一個武器我說要符合四個條件第一要有遠端傳輸第二要是裝在移動的載具上然後要有處理資訊的能力而且要能夠達成軍事爆破的功能不只如此我說你還要是用成熟的技術最快可以量產而且非常便宜就跑出這個東西出來你們就是什麼"},{"start":8693.51,"end":8722.54,"text":"一個老爺腳踏車上面放著一個PC個人電腦一根竹竿綁著一個手榴彈這樣東南亞的地方一個游擊隊這樣這是什麼 顧部長你說這個對 這要做FPV 自殺 第一視角自殺式的武器好 我說這樣不行 這樣太low了要美軍製造的他就考出這個圖出來"},{"start":8725.287,"end":8746.564,"text":"其實無人載具說穿了就是這四個嘛遠端傳輸用手機跟遙控嘛要移動的載具管他是車船還是飛機然後呢要有軍事爆破的能夠達到效果本身還有資訊處理的能力不過就是腳踏車加個人電腦加個手榴彈然後用手機啊有很難嗎來我們來看一下院長"},{"start":8748.774,"end":8774.059,"text":"軍購案三讀行政院後續的規劃我們看到媒體報導說軍購預算三讀了3780億川普說對台軍很快決定其實我們都在關心所有的刪掉商購跟委資對國防影響全球都在看台灣怎麼強化國防還有只通過7800億後續的規劃如何補足缺口院長會不會覺得有點不太樂觀還是你覺得正面看待軍購特別條例通過"},{"start":8775.723,"end":8783.953,"text":"在這次特別條例跟特別預算討論的過程當中我們當然發現很多的阻力那有沒有正面的"},{"start":8785.169,"end":8814.186,"text":"當然也有 到最後通過了七千八百億之後也得到了一些 至少有一部分但是也讓美方感到非常的失望是的 那我幫你總結一下從國際的角度來看這個特別條例通過後是台灣全展現了捍衛主權 自我防衛的決心對不對而且呢 在伊朗他不敢杯葛 他還是要到處通過就在院長出國前趕快通過所以這是全台灣社會的共識不分朝野 是不是這樣子這是正向的"},{"start":8815.106,"end":8838.135,"text":"但是轉現決心有共識那怎麼樣來真正守護台灣的民主自由呢我們來看一下還是有不足的地方他仍然在呈現了國會多數在野黨他說只用軍購回到傳統的思維沒有商購沒有委制有發價書才有預算而且要以美國美軍現役的武器美國製造的才來限縮這個軍購"},{"start":8839.535,"end":8861.661,"text":"這是傳統的思維很難對應未來的戰場請問未來戰場的形態是什麼部長你覺得未來戰場的形態是什麼我們來看一下我看到這個圖啊票投國民黨啊 孩子上戰場啊票投民進黨 無人機上戰場如果你是民眾你要哪一個來 國部長你不是國防部 你會要哪一個"},{"start":8864.448,"end":8880.914,"text":"要無人機上戰場嘛是不是好,所以未來的戰場應該是怎麼往下看其實如果真人上戰場跟無人機上戰場後者的成本低很多再來門檻來講要打造核子潛艦很難可是要組裝無人載具不困難"},{"start":8882.011,"end":8906.469,"text":"但是台灣是要用無人機去攻擊中共嗎?院長是我們的意思嗎?不是,我們是害怕中共攻台的時候它用無人機海消耗我們高架台攔截飛彈讓我們台灣自動產線破口它用速浪壓制就像烏克蘭去攻擊莫斯科攻擊後方一樣造成了破壞低成本的無人機造成台灣大量的損害這才是我們最擔心的對不對"},{"start":8907.35,"end":8909.253,"text":"是 那我選擇的話 我會選擇票投國防預算 台灣不會上戰場好 這樣子很好來 郭部長 隊伍無人機是不是還是要靠無人機"},{"start":8920.705,"end":8948.544,"text":"對付無人機也要靠無人機嘛現在已經有發展所謂的用攔截機這樣的名稱那其實就是一種無人機但是我們這次發現商購跟偽製都刪掉了就刪掉了什麼刪掉了無人機嘛所以呢很多民間在呼籲院長你說過還有三條路可以走第一個是再提軍購特別預算第二個在原預算擴大追加預算的規模第三個放到我們的年度預算這三者可行嗎"},{"start":8949.981,"end":8964.479,"text":"這是我們遇到憲法跟預算法裡面我們現在想到的那我們如果去找到一個最有利的途徑還有民間人士提到第四種就是趕快要提出一個無人佔據特別條例什麼叫做無人佔據我們來看一下"},{"start":8965.751,"end":8982.447,"text":"其實不是無人佔據而是要創建無人載具的產業今天英國的海軍之所以強大不是英國買了無敵艦隊而是英國有龐大的造船產業當年的大清國為什麼家府戰敗因為他是跟外國買軍艦"},{"start":8984.068,"end":9004.785,"text":"但是呢 買軍又沒有用所以後來才有江南製造局 才有自己的軍備工業 才有普遍到民間所以如果是無人戰具 它除了搭載武器 它除了有徵收的功能 它除了反制干擾之外拿掉這三種無人載具 它可以做空中 地面 水面 水下它其實是什麼 日常的生活應用啊"},{"start":9005.345,"end":9029.26,"text":"我就說嘛 他就像一個無人 他就像手機去操控有PC電腦 有一輛腳踏車 這就是一個另類的無人載具就這麼簡單 有很難嗎 沒有什麼高科技好 我們往下看 所以我們來看烏克蘭烏克蘭在冷戰時期 前蘇聯時期 它是蘇聯的軍火庫啊它可以做出核子潛艦啊 它的工業技術能力很強啊"},{"start":9030.253,"end":9050.758,"text":"但是你看看那時候的烏克蘭沒有在那半年便宜喔在烏二戰爭之後烏克蘭發展了什麼電子產業、客廳工廠它的無人載具不是在龐大的軍工廠生產的是在很多的家庭、公寓裡面組裝出來的一年有五百萬架有沒有很成功?院長你不覺得烏克蘭還滿成功的?"},{"start":9052.52,"end":9079.657,"text":"你覺得呢 院長數量還有對付俄羅斯 有沒有成功阻擋俄羅斯的攻勢有部分是成功的 但是要持久數量要夠 要持久要持久 要數量夠所以無人載具呢 我們其實要的是產業鏈不是只是商購 也不是軍購 也不是偽製而是要創這樣一個供應鏈那這樣的無人載具供應鏈缺什麼呢我們來告訴一下 國務部長這個你很熟悉啊"},{"start":9081.054,"end":9100.386,"text":"這些都是我們台灣從工業起飛之後工業部門我們經濟部陸續成立了一共九個財團法人從最早的紡織到精力的什麼食品到精力的所謂的自行車精力的運動鞋還有精力工業工具機到後來的塑膠"},{"start":9101.838,"end":9127.704,"text":"廣布長是不是這樣子政府要讓產業在地方有一個生態系要有方法要有工具有沒有缺了一個什麼最重要的這些產業都是傳產嘛有工具機有自行車有球鞋缺了什麼缺了我們台灣最強的電腦手機跟晶片啊那個是誰出的那個是支撐會啊支撐會在68年成立的"},{"start":9128.393,"end":9154.521,"text":"所以台灣的政府要幫忙推動產業的時候他都會有一個工具、要有一個平台來整合民間的部門目前無人採取產業有任何一個嗎?沒有啊,目前我們看一下分布在哪裡目前的產業發展歸經濟部最普遍的應用在我們2016年、2017年修民用航空管的時候增加那個遙控無人機專章主要送來紙保機就噴農藥的"},{"start":9155.831,"end":9173.574,"text":"但是我們後來發現有治安防護的問題,因為後來的書法不管有所謂的社平管理是NCC管,還有使用管理上空域、海域、民防局跟航港局以及後來的應用包括救傷、送藥是所謂衛福部跟消防署"},{"start":9174.602,"end":9199.722,"text":"一個無人載具的產業可以有這麼多的非軍事的應用但是到目前為止政府沒有一個專責的單位來管理它這個產業跟生態系的建立所以法規分散 資源分散就是主要產業請問行政院願意支持整合無人載具的法規嗎就像我們海覽七法一樣院長 我覺得海覽七法做得很好整合各部會的法規 交通部 但是它不在交通部啦"},{"start":9201.028,"end":9210.413,"text":"我們無人載具產業需不需要整合法規我們目前只有經濟部有一個無人產業發展統籌型計畫而已但是金屬中心沒有辦法去發展法制化的能力我來告訴各位需要什麼"},{"start":9219.438,"end":9240.605,"text":"需要一個無人載具的發展需要一個創建產業的特別條例什麼叫創建產業我們看特別預算的特別條例大概有三個特質第一個非經常性是突發性的戰爭天災人禍或者說他跨年度編列預算的才能排除預算法的限制再來他在階段內有排除一項法規我舉個例子譬如說2008年馬總統時候有個振興經濟所以是什麼發消費券"},{"start":9246.647,"end":9270.268,"text":"然後有個擴大公共建設,就是擴大內區最有名的就是莫拉克重建莫拉克不只有預算,還有排除一些水保環保的一個評估法案能在短期之內重建這些法後來都終止了,因為任務完成了我們蔡英文總統任內有什麼?有前瞻基礎建設前瞻基礎建設有天災嗎?有人禍嗎?有土壤狀況嗎?沒有啊"},{"start":9271.929,"end":9284.982,"text":"就是要去積極地打造一個台灣未來現代化需要的基礎建設地方政府都很歡迎嘛可不可以用特別預算可以啊可不可以用特別條例可以啊所以無人載具的量產迫切"},{"start":9285.936,"end":9311.627,"text":"郭部長,無人採訪難道等中共打來了才需要嗎?不是啊,要提早準備啊你需要這麼多的國防需求,量這麼多,有突發性、急迫性然後我們採購的量大,需要跨年度的預算,然後它的法規現在分散這就是用特別預算、特別條例的最佳時機啊所以是個產業創建特別條例,不是一個國防採購特別預算"},{"start":9312.438,"end":9329.769,"text":"接下來我要去按照來五年五千五百億來打造一個創建一個無人載具產業好不好我們看過去的特別條例大概有排除作用法有匡列跨年度的預算政府採購過去我們扶持半導體產業院長管部長有沒有一個特別條例"},{"start":9331.8,"end":9343.477,"text":"沒有但是我們有產業創新條例有產創條例產創條例經常性的修改根據我們的半導體電子產業的需求不斷的加不斷的加現在有這樣的綠能對不對有這樣的儲能對不對有這樣的地熱對不對但是沒有預算"},{"start":9347.972,"end":9368.358,"text":"是因為台灣就很成熟的外銷市場在支撐這個產業但是無人載具目前市場在哪裡外銷的都是零星的 零組件所以如果說我們有一個無人載具特別條例有政策優惠 然後有跨越預算 有採購去刺激供給帶動商機 強化後勤能夠外銷國際 還能夠滿足內需"},{"start":9371.328,"end":9385.618,"text":"不是只有什麼政策補貼不是只有什麼水電、土地、貸款還有利息的優惠請問院長如果融合了政策優惠、匡列預算採購來刺激創建無人載具的產業供應鏈你支不支持"},{"start":9386.806,"end":9415.108,"text":"如果我們從這個市場的需求跟技術研發等方面甚至我們用更多的法規必須調整或鬆綁來形成一個產業鏈的話那是值得來做思考就像我現在我們在編一個中小微企業的轉型生意條例一樣我們現在要集中支援我們現在就告訴你它需要什麼這供應鏈需要什麼機翼馬達電控晶片我們台灣有龐大的中小企業有傳產的供應鏈還有最先端的晶片"},{"start":9415.988,"end":9437.245,"text":"這些集合起來,不是一個掛著手榴彈上面載著個人電腦的自行車,就是無人載具這個要完整的生態系統建構,那需要什麼呢?我告訴你需要什麼?我們現在只有無人機聯盟、漢強擔任主席、兩百六十幾家廠商去國外拿訂單,然後沒有了"},{"start":9438.004,"end":9456.68,"text":"我們國內有什麼?現在我們需要是明定組織機關,整合政府資源,統合業界需求,帶動商機,提升後勤的產能請問誰來主政?剛剛陳案庭委員說要由經濟部主政,我後來休息之間看到顧部長跟廣部長在說你那你那你那"},{"start":9457.481,"end":9470.758,"text":"我覺得就是行政院主政但是未來可能部會上比較接近經濟部發展產業的性質但是預算可能用在大部分的內需需求是我們的國防部院長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":9472.496,"end":9499.489,"text":"至少我們剛剛講的統籌型計畫是副院長在主持的我們那個無人載具產業發展沒有預算啊沒有法規啊副院長只能協調各部會啊所以我現在要給我們希望國會通過一個創建產業的特別條例給形容那個工具未來就算是國發會主政還是副院長主政就像當年的前瞻基礎建設一樣八年八千八百億"},{"start":9500.649,"end":9523.882,"text":"各國都有編預算然後行政院強力推動這就是目前我們賴總統施政卓院長你領導之下我們已經有這個基礎我們過去這個統籌型計畫已經是有這樣的組織了雖然他並沒有很大的我是建議院長你先想一想我給他講完你先想一想不用急著去拒絕今天很多委員都是希望有一個特別條例我給他講完"},{"start":9525.612,"end":9542.792,"text":"我無人載具我問了好幾次我問過交通部有什麼有大型無人貨機的跨境空中物流運輸你沒有想過無人貨機可以做跨境的空中運輸沒有我問過海巡署海上的無人艦艇可不可以應對滋擾跟查緝走私"},{"start":9543.613,"end":9558.739,"text":"署長說,副主委說可以我問國防部,是不是我們來建立無人艇部隊,而且要採購改用以租賃代替採購的方式部長說,願意帶回去研究所以他說的是說,這個是非常重要的,所以最後的結論"},{"start":9573.072,"end":9573.632,"text":"馬文君委員質詢李坤誠委員請準備"},{"start":9603.146,"end":9604.489,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請卓院長再請卓院長備選"},{"start":9616.774,"end":9633.129,"text":"安委好 主委院長午安 主委院長今天其實我們針對特別預算的部分那很多委員關切的大概是無人機的部分那我們還是要再提醒因為我們的國防預算相關的預算今年編列大概9,450億還剛通過了任性"},{"start":9636.812,"end":9665.189,"text":"預算其實跟國防相關的1100億其實已經上兆了我們這一次通過的軍售就是特別條例的部分這個是針對軍購的部分那也7800億所以不是刪掉4700億而是我們又增加了這7800億我們希望在有限的資源之下我們其實是可以把它做得更好那我們就這個部分部長有針對9000多億的國防預算的內容做了一些說明"},{"start":9665.929,"end":9677.553,"text":"我知道我說國防相關預算你把它列入這樣嘛這是你們自己說的所以我們不用去爭執那個大家都可以看得到我們現在看的是無人機的預算裡面"},{"start":9680.794,"end":9702.779,"text":"無人機預算我們在115年國防部仍然編列了將近120億這是公開的而且國防部的報告裡面也清楚載明所以政府不要把無人機說得好像特別條例它沒有過然後台灣就沒有無人機這樣是一個欺騙的一個說法因為這個"},{"start":9705.41,"end":9727.977,"text":"院長你聽我講完115年我們已經編了將近120億光是公開的資料我們可以看得出來無人機的預算是一層一層疊上去的首先海空戰力提升計畫建想無人機是119.8億現在還在進行中五大信賴產業推動方案有18.8億"},{"start":9729.838,"end":9737.32,"text":"因應高關稅特別條例又納入了64.9億經濟部無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫也規劃2025年到2030年投入442億115年度國防部無人機相關預算將近120億這還不包含機密預算研發預算還有各軍種分散編列的相關預算"},{"start":9756.445,"end":9777.467,"text":"那海巡還有其他部會的無人機跟反無人機系統其實也都有編列只是它是分散的剛剛我念的這些其實它的預算已經非常高在相關的年度預算裡面所以問題不是有沒有編錢而是錢花到哪裡去了國防部自己報告裡面也寫得很清楚"},{"start":9777.987,"end":9788.13,"text":"持續執行高高空無人機系統這些相關的案子並且在一般武器還有戰備資源裝備以及一般通電裝備裡面也編列了815億餘元"},{"start":9793.372,"end":9809.9,"text":"這些相關的部分而且在國防先進科技研究計畫當中也把航空載具徵收密宗通訊防護AI智能這些也都納入研發的方向也就是說無人機反無人機AI"},{"start":9810.74,"end":9839.155,"text":"通訊電路這個本來就已經都放在年度預算裡面研發預算機密預算裡面交叉編列這些預算清清楚楚都是在我們的預算裡面我們的預算書裡面都是呈現出來的所以我剛剛念的預算已經好幾千億喔所以就這些部分我們要怎麼樣好好的落實去執行這個可能才是比較重要的而不是在特別預算裡面"},{"start":9840.556,"end":9857.864,"text":"這個相關的部分我們剛剛念的那些也就是所謂商售跟偽製的部分我們希望它可以好好的落實在每一個年度因為我們研發無人機的相關預算如果像中科院或國防部其實已經接近20年了"},{"start":9859.245,"end":9883.555,"text":"這些相關的成果還有歷年的預算其實已經非常的高所以他不是因為這4700億沒有然後我們就沒有無人機產業絕對不是剛剛經濟部也有各個部會也有已經編列很多所以委員是反對我們在研發製造進入到一個更長期更大量更穩定的民主公義的時代我們沒有停留在現在這個階段我們是在我剛剛院長你沒有認真聽我剛剛說的這個是一百一十五"},{"start":9888.997,"end":9916.104,"text":"你要大量長期等一下我會給你看看當你超過一兆以上的國防相關預算我們歷年怎麼樣的成果如果你沒有辦法把這些好好的做好以後然後你再去增加你的預算如果過去只有幾千億我們都做不好或者沒有辦法如期如止的完成那你如果更多的預算我們會質疑我們完全沒有辦法使用而且在浪費納稅錢"},{"start":9917.244,"end":9938.102,"text":"我是的基督委員啦對於潛艦對於五輪載具都是同樣的態度我是很了解啦潛艦院長不要把潛艦拿出來講那是所有軍事官兵要下水影響到他們的安全你今天不是你開口說這是可以的就可以他還沒有測試通過如果你測試通過"},{"start":9939.403,"end":9945.991,"text":"如果你有安全的一個實質的證據那你就要接受他的預算 那個我們沒有意見嗎如果沒有...院長"},{"start":9954.48,"end":9980.688,"text":"原型艦還沒有通過你後續艦是依據什麼做如果有國防相關的這些概念包括你的無人機我想國防部長站在旁邊他很清楚潛艦整個過程你一直強調安全非常重要你心裡很清楚這個是什麼樣的核心的一個價值今天如果你可以做得出來不僅要安全他還是要能打仗"},{"start":9981.508,"end":9998.309,"text":"你今天做的不是觀光船我們未來可以看支持跟鼓勵不代表可以縱放我們今天沒有預算你五百多億花掉了你現在是把那個成果應該要呈現在國人的"},{"start":10000.291,"end":10026.965,"text":"面前今天他要是安全的今天所有的官士兵下水以後如果他潛下去他要是安全的而且要能打仗這是基本原則在這裡我們要特別強調的是這個部分所以如果我們今天無人載具的部分我能不能說明一下好不好您剛第一個就提到那個建想它其實就是擺在特別預算這是第一個我知道所以特別預算已經有了還在執行您特別提到了高超公無人機"},{"start":10028.485,"end":10043.713,"text":"這個預算案比較大就是MQ-9B這個部分跟我們現在要編列的國防自主的無人機我覺得性質有很大的不同就我來講MQ-9B是我們跟美國來買不會創建我們的國防機因為它價格又非常的高占價我們現在建造的是一個具有長單規模能夠創建國防自主的無人機"},{"start":10051.236,"end":10065.224,"text":"剛剛念的是我們過去到現在我們一直有無人載具尤其是無人居的相關預算不管是過去對美採購也好我們自己研發也好我們自己軍規商用"},{"start":10067.506,"end":10080.617,"text":"軍規商用的我們採購的很多的無人機現在很多陸續在執行中而且年度預算也有我們講的不是這個性質的差異為無人機它本來差異就很它本來就有它使用的不同的類別"},{"start":10082.919,"end":10097.007,"text":"國防自主的無人載具的重要性跟MQ-9V不一樣我只在說明這一點還有剛剛您提到國防預算國防預算剛剛王安詳委員已經幫我們算出來連同這一次我們編的特定預算8億總共就是8千多億並沒有您講的這個金額"},{"start":10100.629,"end":10115.06,"text":"那個因為是你們對外說你是九千五百四十九千五百就是含所有的含所有的那是你們對北方交代的不管你要八千多億也好六千多億都沒有關係反正他就是"},{"start":10115.78,"end":10141.329,"text":"列在國防預算裡面我們今天買的如果是五年以後八年以後十年以後甚至十五年以後才可能形成戰力的系統憑什麼把它放進戰備急需這真正的戰備急需照理說應該是三個月六個月或甚至一年內能形成戰力的項目這是我們要說它的差異性剛剛我說的是公開預算裡面我們在各個部會其實就編列那麼多"},{"start":10141.829,"end":10166.974,"text":"那你在特別預算裡面我們希望它是即時形成戰力而不是拿來研發用也不是拿來做測試用因為它沒有經過相關的驗證我剛剛念的這些其實它在公務預算裡面有編了那我們應該即時形成的這個是形成的集戰力這個我們希望是大家應該要共同去努力的一個方向有官方制度才有集戰力有什麼"},{"start":10170.595,"end":10191.951,"text":"有國防自主的產業鏈國防自主有很多啊你們的永英號延盪你們的潛艦延盪你們的很多無人機我們無人機不是沒有研發無人機我們從大型到小型我們從騰雲 尖濱 紅雀還有很多相關的無人機我們都做過研發我們也做過採購"},{"start":10194.693,"end":10209.386,"text":"如果扣掉我們剛剛講的建翔跟那個荒寨特別預算跟MQ-9B你如果來看的話從110年來看一直到114年花在這個無人機上面的預算其實是很少的很少"},{"start":10210.266,"end":10217.535,"text":"對 不多 因為你剛剛提到的MQ-9V就占了 譬如說104年 MQ-9V就占了104億我們買 我們只是買 我們僅此買四架然後它的價格多少 一架40億"},{"start":10227.647,"end":10242.865,"text":"我們是高於其他國家的金額在採購我們要建構的不是這樣子的無人機我們要建構就是一個能夠國防自主的一個具有產業鏈你才剛買然後你說我們不是要這樣的無人機我們現在要說的是我現在說發展國防"},{"start":10244.987,"end":10259.605,"text":"供應鏈的這種無人機不是那一種MQ-9我們支持啊 可是你剛剛我們鏈的已經什麼都有我剛剛講給你聽的是我們從高高空 我們攻擊型然後我們包括對美採購的MQ-9還包括你這次在特別預算裡面買的Artis 600"},{"start":10262.087,"end":10289.136,"text":"這些相關的你們買了很多我們現在要的是它的成果到底是什麼包括我們之前買的我們驗證不過的反無人機系統這已經長達兩三年以上的時間我們還沒有驗測通過這也是買的啊然後你再其他的我們在去年前年買的它的成效都不彰所以就這些系統我們希望可以做的有一個外長最大的差異是部長一直在強調我們自主研發的能量要增加"},{"start":10289.716,"end":10307.212,"text":"要應付未來長期大量的需求所以我們支持所以我們希望放在我們的年度預算因為你如果要研發你要國防自主它不是放在特別預算我一直強調特別預算它是因應"},{"start":10307.953,"end":10321.043,"text":"我們緊急狀況你在三個月六個月一年可以形成集戰力可以馬上買到我們成熟的產品我覺得很好你可以分年買也沒有關係可是不是拿來研發這是我們再次強調的平常我們現在"},{"start":10324.065,"end":10328.928,"text":"我們也有相當長時間這個已經通過了我想你在這裡討論這個比較沒有必要第四個問題我們無人機到底是建軍還是買回來再驗證這個當然就是我們典型無人機在"},{"start":10340.874,"end":10364.502,"text":"雖然我們現在一直剛剛院長跟部長都講國防自主任及國家隊可是我們真正去看他採購的內容其實問題是比較嚴重的我們就來談這一次在我們這個特別預算裡面所謂的ARTIS 600的這個部分我們同樣在這個預算裡面其實我們也買了彈簧刀300"},{"start":10365.982,"end":10380.69,"text":"Artist 600就是所謂的彈簧刀600Artist我們的彈簧刀300今年延宕沒有辦法交貨可是Artist 600它是如期它是所有的我們對外採購裡面最準時交貨的"},{"start":10382.431,"end":10406.81,"text":"這個我想大家去細想他的原因可是我們現在要來談的就是說他在美軍體系裡面他本來就還是在測試驗證還有概念運用的這樣的階段包括他的練步整合還有作戰概念的驗證實戰的穩定性都還在持續的調整也不是成熟的大規模的部署系統可是台灣卻直接大量部署在我們的"},{"start":10407.631,"end":10432.33,"text":"我們的運用上面我們之前已經編了55億就是我剛剛講的台灣刀300跟這個Artist600我們已經花了55億可是我們很迅速的在這一次的特別預算裡面又編了好幾百億要採購這個部分剛剛提到連美國其實他都還在驗證的階段所以我們到底要部署的是什麼樣的一個無人機載具怎麼樣讓我們的"},{"start":10434.271,"end":10458.045,"text":"戰力可以提升這個是我們要探討的我們現在來看一下相關的因為大家一直在尤其院長跟部長昨天我們也有探討過我們一直在講我們可以心平氣和的講我們今天如果要讓我們的國防戰力提升有很多我們沒有辦法在預算的期程之內完成的我們要怎麼樣去強化"},{"start":10459.286,"end":10482.039,"text":"我們可以來看一下我們現在重要的武器軍售的部分這光是這個對美採購的部分復仇者系統材料件回修這個發價書還沒有取得我們都已經在編列預算甚至有的超過一年兩年三年陸軍飛彩零附件的合約這個也還沒有拿到發價書脫勢飛彈"},{"start":10485.541,"end":10511.276,"text":"目標獲得系統的回修也還沒有獲得發價書AH-641直升機零附件採購也還沒有獲得美方的發價書標槍飛彈系統週期支援服務這個也還沒有拿到發價書這些都是我們重要的武器裝備而且他的零附件對於他的安全性妥善率都有非常重要的一個方向可是"},{"start":10511.856,"end":10520.363,"text":"這些八教書我們年年變預算他到現在還沒有拿到我們再來看看接下來還有的就是我們其他自己"},{"start":10524.058,"end":10550.217,"text":"至少有一二十項沒有補給完成包括我們的M1M1A2戰車車都已經來了可是到現在他的訓練場還沒有完成而且一直在延到至少有十幾個所以我們希望我們先把過後的先把補上來然後我們要未來的預算一步一步的到位讓我們的預算用在高空上"},{"start":10552.981,"end":10556.065,"text":"好 謝謝馬文靜委員的諮詢謝謝主委長 國安部長備詢 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10577.844,"end":10582.26,"text":"接下來我們請李坤澄委員請質詢林佩祥委員請準備"},{"start":10605.794,"end":10611.757,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我們請行政院左院長議員好 院長好 辛苦了那國軍安全必須守護 國家安全不能打折那是我今天質詢的一個主軸"},{"start":10632.469,"end":10658.17,"text":"那行政院今天有通過這個軍購的特別預算2949億那其中呢今年先編了88億的這個預算那當然比較急的就是5月31號這個海馬仕火箭系統的第一期的這個訂金就要付了我印象中是8億元那當然來得及來不及我們要一起努力啦不過我想先請教一下這個院長"},{"start":10660.251,"end":10686.736,"text":"因為我們這次的軍購特別條例原本我們是1.25兆那包含了軍購、商購、委制這三部分所以我們是分八年來編列但是現在我們的軍購特別預算被打了六二折從1.25兆剩下7800億少了4700億然後被打折之後它分兩批一批就是3000億一批就是4800億那我的問題是在於說"},{"start":10690.256,"end":10707.142,"text":"我們今年只編了88億元那我請問一下這編列的原則是怎麼樣因為如果按照這個通過了這個全部7800億來講分8年編列大概一年也要編到975億左右"},{"start":10708.843,"end":10725.677,"text":"那如果第一年只編了88億考量是怎麼樣跟委員報告他這個就是因為執行的年度所產生的分年需求是不一樣不一定的所以今年88億明年預估就會到102億那麼到了117年就會到213億那麼到了118會到521億左右那接下來119會到600多億應該對"},{"start":10738.647,"end":10753.129,"text":"然後900多億再500多億這個大概大家都有一個分年不同部長你剛才講那些數字啊你這個數字有沒有跟外界披露因為我只看到今年是88億"},{"start":10755.441,"end":10778.636,"text":"那你剛才所講的這個分年每一年的預算跟委員報告這88億是我們第一批發價部分的經費88億往後還會再加上來因為跟委員報告我們在我們的預算的書表裡面其實是有列一個總額那因為他現在特別條例說叫我們一年一編所以一年一編我們就要按"},{"start":10779.136,"end":10804.368,"text":"因為今年已經現在已經是五月了所以我們現在要的就是說屬於首期款然後還有第三季第四季我覺得要講清楚啦對那明年就是一個整年嘛對不對那所以一定是付款的那個金額會比較高所以我剛剛大致上我們又有一個我剛剛有念的這樣一連串的數字大概就是我們有一個估算那你這個估算的數字可不可以給我們"},{"start":10805.536,"end":10823.321,"text":"我想我們會後因為現在大家覺得說一年只能編88億可是我們這個通過預算是7800億嘛然後當然第一批是3000億按照這個部長所講的每一年每一年今年可能編88億但是第二年第三年之後會編得比較多嘛"},{"start":10824.201,"end":10838.78,"text":"對不對我覺得這個數字要講清楚啦它這個付款的高峰期要隨著我們這幾個案項執行的期程就會有不同嘛就譬如說我們也有像海空戰力特別提升的特別條例也有一個"},{"start":10840.181,"end":10859.386,"text":"我知道你會有付款的高峰期啦那我的意思是說可能國防部要把這部分我們這個因為分八年嘛那現在通過了一個三千一個四千八百億加起來七千八百億那你要把每一年大概大概會要付這個我免聯兵的預算大概是多少我覺得要讓外界了解一下"},{"start":10862.196,"end":10870.555,"text":"給的當然就是只現在通過的這個2917億那就是第一批嘛那至少你第一批,那第一批也要分8年嗎?"},{"start":10872.123,"end":10899.155,"text":"他每一個案項執行的期程並不完全一樣那我們在我們的預算的書裡面也有大致上說明大概每一個大概執行的一個期程有的是有的是要到121年但是有的可能是不需要到121年可能有的只到118年那有的可能是120年都有不同對我的意思我剛有看因為有的是120有的是121"},{"start":10902.116,"end":10916.363,"text":"118也有那因為我們本來是有分三部分啊那現在只剩下對美的軍購部分而已嘛對不對對我們現在就是商購跟委制商購跟委制就沒有了嘛對不對那所以這個整個條例還是要分八年嗎"},{"start":10918.452,"end":10935.42,"text":"因為軍購的部分他給我們的那個執行的期程其實就是差不多在121年左右所以還是就算最後只剩下這個七千八百億商購的 委制的都沒有了我們還是大概要分八年來做執行就對了"},{"start":10936.8,"end":10962.951,"text":"那你把每年你預計執行的這個數目我覺得要讓外界來了解一下不然我會有個疑惑我就說那為什麼這個第一年只有分88億我一定會覺得第一年比較少但因為我們去年就送出來延誤了這半年跟美方要進行多項的交涉我舉個例子我們4年1000億的縣市管核酸改善計畫4年1000億我們第一年也編了100多億而已也沒有4年1000億就編250億也不可能"},{"start":10964.572,"end":10992.661,"text":"那還是我們國內的部分喔 軍購還有跟國外洽商 很多很多的程序所以往後年度就會緩緩的上升要讓外界來瞭解 就是說我們大概是我又請國防部特別說明早上院會我又請國防部特別就這一段了 必要的時候跟社會要做說明我覺得要做個說明啦因為大家外界不一定清楚 說那不是這個我們需要的是1.25兆那後來就算砍成只剩7800億那我們的每年度的預算大概是怎麼樣做分配的"},{"start":10993.021,"end":11013.148,"text":"我覺得還是要讓外界了解一下我想我們可以來就我們預估的這個相關的這個金額因為他還是要我們一年一編是沒錯啦是一年一編沒有錯但是我們這是多年期的所以我們已經有一個預估的我覺得要把預估的每一年的數字還是要讓外界了解一下"},{"start":11013.988,"end":11028.298,"text":"那第二個當然總統跟院長也說過蠻多次接下來的被刪掉4700億我們希望說用特別預算或是用追加預算或是憋在年度的預算裡面"},{"start":11029.099,"end":11054.237,"text":"那不過我看一下這個4700億被刪掉的部分包含這個無人載具還有反制系統這包含這個商貨跟偽製大概2900億然後呢強攻飛彈系統約370億那這個是偽製這由中科院來做處理的然後呢AI輔助還有聯合勤奸爭系統大概90億左右然後呢還有強化持續量能約500億那這個是"},{"start":11056.579,"end":11081.429,"text":"要在中共可能發動海空封鎖之前我們要建立這個自己自主的一個後勤的一個韌性不過這個500億也被刪掉了然後還有台美共同研發還有新興科技合作640億那這個就是跟台美合作這個關鍵的一個新興科技還有這個我們共同來研發新興科技的擊殺鏈等等那加起來"},{"start":11083.329,"end":11102.696,"text":"有偽製的部分,那有商購的部分那商購又有國內的,又有國外的那我請教一下院長跟部長如果你要編特別預算或是編追加預算或是年度預算那你這些項目,你大概要怎麼去做處理呢?這個請國防部再研究"},{"start":11104.841,"end":11128.237,"text":"商跟軍之間如果未來他必須要有一個合理的界面現在考慮的是這些合理的界面不會因為不同的部會來主政讓他將來在整個指揮系統上運用系統上發生變化但是無論是哪一個部門比如說無人機那他可能可以我現在還沒有做最後決定他可能朝一個特別的條例來做進行也可能"},{"start":11128.897,"end":11146.323,"text":"那其他的部分我們用是不是放到裡面的該放到一起特別條例的放到特別條例或其他部分可以用追加的或用公務預算的方式可以分開來處理但是前面一定要非常清楚像委制的部分至少公開的資料是有蠻多是委託中科院的嘛是不是"},{"start":11147.563,"end":11170.838,"text":"中科院最大的就是我們現在所需要台灣之盾的那個強工然後還有無人機無人機的部分基本上在這次特別預算裡面是運用這個公開採購的方式公開採購的方式來向國內來建立一個長單就是說我們一個多年期然後來建構一個自主的供應鏈這樣子的部分擺在這一次特別條例"},{"start":11171.778,"end":11186.603,"text":"因為不是把所有的無人載具都放在這個我知道那我的意思是說因為它有些是偽製的部分那商購比如說有一些是國內的廠商嘛對不對那有一些是國外的嘛對不對無人機的部分我不是指無人機的部分而已"},{"start":11188.013,"end":11202.355,"text":"對對當然當然有很多有一些部分都未採上過的方式那就涉及到說那你到底要編載特別條例比較好還是說編載年度預算會比較好"},{"start":11203.397,"end":11228.197,"text":"跟委員報告我想院長剛剛也只是我們我們現在就是說因為剛剛被您剛剛不是列了一大串被刪減的項目那這些刪減的項目的性質我們看能不能放入到年度預算有一些部分可以有一些部分我們可能是不是用最佳預算有一些部分的話用特別條例所以我們國防部的首要責任就是"},{"start":11229.198,"end":11241.119,"text":"儘快的檢討這些被刪除的項目如何在後續的年度來進行編列大概哪時候會做個決定因為總是有一些原則性會先出來"},{"start":11244.3,"end":11270.248,"text":"我想在行政院的指導之下我們會我們現在最快的希望是明天開始這個特別預算就能夠審那特別預算開始審的時候我們是下週啊如果現在我們馬上講一個時間點上出來的話我還期待我們的總預算我們的總預算也要趕快審因為我們要辦這個後續的這一家也是要總預算過的話我們也希望能夠看到我們的總預算在我們國航的部分是變成什麼樣子"},{"start":11270.768,"end":11286.217,"text":"好 那我講到總運算那現在其實外界很多人誤解就是說國防部的運算有9495億這其實不是正確的資訊因為你們自己的國防部的運算才5614億嘛然後我們講的是9495億是指國防運算"},{"start":11292.721,"end":11309.033,"text":"我們已經當時要講說要破3%而且我們現在GDP一直成長得很厲害因為我們的重點是這樣的我們的當時的九四九已經將我們這個特別條例"},{"start":11309.844,"end":11328.123,"text":"包括這一次的特別條例我們還有海空戰力特別提示還有我們這些特別條例的預算我們都已經把它預估放在這個裡面對 因為你們你們這個齁這個剛剛王安祥委員有幫我們試算了一下大概九四九五已經打完我現在知道你們這一個主計總署的還有你們這國防部也有這個主計的齁他講出來就是說"},{"start":11332.788,"end":11346.412,"text":"編列這個特別預算吼這個有包含了新式戰機的採購還有海空戰力提升計畫那除了這個之外呢還有另外編列的特別預算有1176億那這1176億呢76億是屬於海巡署的國防安全防衛任性預算"},{"start":11352.213,"end":11364.707,"text":"那另外的1100億分為兩岸那都是國防部有關係的那另外呢有一半呢就跟剛剛一樣是國土安全防衛稅清算這我們已經過了嘛另外一個就是本來要通過了啦這個防衛的軍購特別預算嘛"},{"start":11367.35,"end":11394.209,"text":"所以光特別預算就有四個F16海空戰力還有一個經濟部的那個安全韌性然後再加上我們現在打算要通過的特別條例然後因為我們按照NATO就是北約的計算標準所以我們加計海巡跟加計對對對我知道這加起來的我知道啦那當然有些人不了解他以為這些都是屬於國防部的預算那國防部的預算就五千多億而已嘛所以剛剛有委員一直在說我們是九千多再加上去這個講法是不對的"},{"start":11396.471,"end":11402.995,"text":"好 那我的意思是說啦 本來你們預計 本來預計的話應該是今年如果1.25兆都過的話 你們不是編了500億在這個這個軍購特別條例 本來是編了500億進去就對了所以現在因為今年是88億嘛 所以這個金額要往下扣啊"},{"start":11418.004,"end":11438.483,"text":"那我只想問就是說國防部今年的這個軍事投資預算1616億那其中只有84億是用在新增案那如果你要把無人機1500億的預算分6年把它編進去那一年要編200多億那會不會排擠其他的國防的預算"},{"start":11442.207,"end":11462.803,"text":"所以我們現在要跟主席總書商量然後要接受基本上是沒有辦法全部或是很大的部分就放在年度預算來即使年度預算採連續幾年的預算但每年這樣分下來會讓我們相當其他的預算會發生一些影響還是可能會編在特別預算裡面"},{"start":11465.605,"end":11486.077,"text":"最後再請教一下院長因為我們還有一個140億的軍購這個還在川普那邊要等川普的同意我是根據公開的報導這筆預算主要聚焦於強化台灣的防空攔截能力還有防空體系的升級"},{"start":11488.078,"end":11505.983,"text":"然後這個大概有包含這個愛國者三行或是說這個國家先進地對空飛彈系統這個是公開的資料那我不用部長來跟我回答是或是不是那我只是要問一下就是說現在有所謂的倚賴論跟以美論又出現了"},{"start":11508.911,"end":11525.526,"text":"如果現在140億第二批的軍購沒有夠的話是民進黨的責任但是我要講如果當初早點中共的話不就好了嗎所謂疑美論是美國應該跟我們很好但是他有沒有不知道但台灣卻沒有疑中論"},{"start":11540.961,"end":11545.146,"text":"要注意一下 這個我看 開始有在王俊隆在放如果沒有過的話 就是民進黨的這個責任要稍微注意一下我們會努力來爭取國防的需要好 謝謝李坤城委員的資訊 謝謝謝謝卓院長 國防部長貝馨 謝謝"},{"start":11557.128,"end":11576.291,"text":"好我們接下來請林佩祥委員請質詢王定宇委員請準備好謝謝主席有請卓院長跟顧部長麻煩再請卓院長國防部長備詢林委員好"},{"start":11588.257,"end":11605.151,"text":"左院長、吳部長、各位國安高層跟全國現在正在看這場諮詢的好朋友今天我要談的不只是軍購而是台灣到底有沒有準備好面對未來的戰爭因為戰爭不是買東西戰爭是整個國家生存能力的考驗"},{"start":11606.612,"end":11627.826,"text":"今天行政院提出的有關第一批發價書的採購,總金額接近三千億,包括海馬仕系統、M1-9A7自走炮、標槍飛彈、TOW托式飛彈、反甲型無人機等。我先要講,我支持國防、我支持強化國軍,我也支持保衛中華民國。"},{"start":11628.82,"end":11648.501,"text":"但是真正負責任的立法院不是看到抗中保台四個字就直接通過而是要替人民問這些武器到底有沒有用值不值得 是不適合台灣是不是真的能夠撐過戰爭而能不能保護人民的生命安全因為納稅人的錢不是政治口號"},{"start":11649.682,"end":11667.761,"text":"而是我們人民辛苦的血汗錢今天我要從軍事戰略國安質疑跟現代戰爭三個角度來請教院長跟部長來幾個非常核心的問題第一個問題我們到底是在建立豪豬還是在買高級展示品"},{"start":11668.742,"end":11672.907,"text":"這次軍購的最核心項目就是海馬仕系統82套4320枚精準火箭420枚ATA CMS戰術飛彈總價高達1597億"},{"start":11683.365,"end":11710.785,"text":"事實上海馬士沒有不好他是目前全球最成功的遠程精準打擊系統之一烏克蘭戰爭也證明說哈馬斯的確也具備高精準高機動力高殺傷能力但是問題在於台灣真的有能力讓他活下來嗎我要請教國防部你們有沒有做過完整的兵推因為到目前為止不管從軍事專家還是各方智庫都說一旦兩岸開戰"},{"start":11711.886,"end":11740.785,"text":"共軍的第一波一定是衛星徵收無人機搜查電池定位飽和飛彈打擊網路跟通訊癱瘓請問台灣西部平原這麼小海馬市打完之後能躲去哪裡有多少地下化的機動陣地有多少後備油料有多少分散式的彈藥庫有多少甲車跟誘餌有多少地下維修設施還是現在的規劃是希望海馬市打完一輪之後靠運氣"},{"start":11742.146,"end":11767.567,"text":"請教部長跟委員報告第一個我想我們這個條例就叫做不對稱戰例我也可以跟委員報告如果沒有合乎不對稱戰例的這個要件的話其實美國政府他會有所遲疑美國政府跟我們經過這樣兩年的磋商他提出的這些案項都是認為符合不對稱戰例那不對稱戰例有一個特色就是"},{"start":11768.287,"end":11782.283,"text":"一定要能夠激動眼力然後具有您剛剛提到的相關的致命性的火力海馬式的一個遠程性它可以做跨區的增援並且它可以同時淡酌"},{"start":11783.224,"end":11797.786,"text":"那他可以做分散部署所以在這樣的一個情況之下他是完全合乎我們現在所面對這個共軍可能的全面入侵的情況之下我們的一個部隊戰力的建構的一個所有的元素"},{"start":11799.106,"end":11821.514,"text":"那請問院長,俄烏戰爭已經證明一件事情現代戰場上不是武器先進就一定能夠存活如果缺乏生存能力、偽裝能力、分散部署、戰場機動、再昂貴的武器都可能在幾天內被系統性摧毀尤其台灣不像烏克蘭,有巨大的縱深,台灣真正的問題是空間太小"},{"start":11822.054,"end":11847.992,"text":"所以我今天要質疑的是我們到底是現在在建立豪豬戰略還是在買一批昂貴、醒目、容易被獵殺的高價目標呢更重要的是我們現在買的是發射器但是真正決定戰力的其實是彈藥儲量、補給能力、暫時持續生產能力那順便我是要務部長想要回答那請問國防部如果戰爭超過兩週我們有多少精準彈藥"},{"start":11848.912,"end":11864.866,"text":"還是現在的戰略是希望說建立在戰爭很快就結束呢委員剛剛提到的那個作戰持續力是一個非常好的一個意見那可是我們這一次在特別條例提出來的我們的彈藥的一個戰備的生產量我們要擴張14條產線將我們的戰備存量提高到120天這個被刪掉了這個被刪掉了"},{"start":11874.836,"end":11893.485,"text":"所以相關的這些我們的彈藥不但是要增加它的產線我們也要能夠分散然後我們也要在這些相關的這些所有的持續的量你們要做好另外您剛提到偽裝"},{"start":11895.046,"end":11921.009,"text":"甚至欺敵,這個都在我們規劃的範圍之內部長跟院長報告,因為老實講,很多時候我們的劇本真正的戰爭從來不照劇本走如果一卸照劇本走的話,每一戰爭或是每一特別軍事行動應該在一個禮拜甚至十天之內就會解決不過現在已經撐了超過三個月以上所以說我會覺得比較擔心說我們有沒有做好準備"},{"start":11921.89,"end":11924.853,"text":"第二個問題,M109A7真的符合台灣的不對稱作戰嗎?這是我們採購60門的自走砲,總價是806億元,平均一門超過13億元那我要請問院長,台灣真的適合投入這麼高比例的重型自走砲嗎?"},{"start":11947.892,"end":11964.522,"text":"剛剛部長說過了我們在跟美方洽談這樣的武器的供應的時候不對稱戰力是一個非常關鍵的思考不好意思院長請讓我先把話講完好不好因為老實講就是後面要去講的因為這個武器好像跟我們不對稱作戰好像有一點差距他先進"},{"start":11965.362,"end":11985.336,"text":"他具有數位化快速射擊精準火控網路化作戰能力但是問題還是回來台灣不是烏克蘭我們沒有廣大的眾生我們沒有長時間的轉移空間我們也沒有遼闊的平原一旦共軍獲得去局部的制空這些大型裝備的生存能力到底有多少"},{"start":11985.896,"end":12011.83,"text":"那我也要請教國防部有沒有評估說暫時的轉移能力、隱蔽能力、地下隱蔽能力被無人機獵殺的風險因為在俄烏戰爭現在已經出現大量案例一台幾億的裝甲車被幾十萬的FPV無人機摧毀所以請問我們現在建軍方向真的有吸取現在戰爭的這些教訓嗎還是我們停留在大型重裝備等於戰力的舊時代思維呢"},{"start":12014.271,"end":12039.284,"text":"我想這個是要兼顧的我想您剛剛提到無人機確實也是一個非常重要的一個戰力那相對來講反制無人機也是一個很重要的戰力所以對於部隊提供反制無人機的一個力量這就是我們現在要規劃建制的也就是說對於無人機的攻擊我們假設能夠進行反制那就能夠保護整個部隊的安全那"},{"start":12040.404,"end":12060.269,"text":"這個您提到M129A7您剛剛已經提到了它相關的這些能力那包括它的射程也涵蓋了30公里以上的精準打擊的能力所以像這樣子跟海馬士做一個匹配的話它特別在M129A7是在這個反登陸作戰的時候它會提供這樣子的一個"},{"start":12061.149,"end":12083.981,"text":"比我們現有的這些我們現在的這個A2我們現有的這些牽引砲我們這些要來的就他的射程精準跟他的自動化射擊的能力跟他GPS定位跟數位化質管這個都是我們要引進的一個理由因為如果我們不引進這樣子的部分的話我們的這個"},{"start":12086.336,"end":12109.606,"text":"砲兵還是一個重要的關鍵戰力可是它會停留在幾十年前這樣子的一個情況之下所以比較引進這個比較先進那當然對於無人機的反制也是一個重要的課題跟部長分享啦我老實講對於所謂的不對稱作戰核心從來都不是貴而是便宜難抓打不完如果我們今天把部分預算拖入在機動碰砲就會水雷"},{"start":12114.608,"end":12142.325,"text":"還有機動反艦飛彈那是不是更符合我們台灣的需求因為我一直認為說台灣的真正決戰點應該其實應該在海峽而不是在敵人上岸之後才開始苦戰這是我這樣認為的我想我們一個削弱戰略的一個指導的好像我們從對岸的集結到渡海到濱海到短登陸一直到仲聖都是我們現在所有在演練的範圍之內"},{"start":12143.206,"end":12165.823,"text":"那第三個問題我想請教應該還是請教院長或部長就是說國安標準就是有關這個買軍購的國安標準為什麼對內特別嚴格那對外特別寬鬆呢我有一個蠻重要的問題想要請教院長目前我們國軍尤其是中科院在採購國防通信資訊電子系統的時候都明確要求"},{"start":12166.903,"end":12188.294,"text":"設備跟零組件不得使用中國大陸及港澳產製產品那我要請教院長原因應該會是涉及國安、涉及治安、涉及通訊安全、涉及後門風險那如果是這樣的話我就不太能理解政府對國內的廠商要求這麼嚴格那為什麼美國對台軍售案我們沒有要求美方也比照辦理"},{"start":12189.375,"end":12211.193,"text":"因為如果今天國內廠商用了陸制零件政府說這叫國安風險但是如果在美國軍售裝備裡面若存在中國制零組件的可能那我們卻完全不敢要求揭露或檢驗那麼人民當然會問我們是不是真的重視國安還是我們只是用這套標準來要求我們台灣自己的廠商呢"},{"start":12212.696,"end":12226.057,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想這個資安的這個要求在軍規上面的武器上面他的要求程度是特別高的所以美國在提供他一個軍售的方面"},{"start":12226.621,"end":12246.503,"text":"他整體在這個資安的要求上面,我想絕對不會忽視這樣的一個資安的要求現在可能就要繼續問下去,應該本來要問院長,現在部長想答,我們繼續問下去美方的資安要求,委員你拿他去,他會低於我們嗎?"},{"start":12247.604,"end":12269.498,"text":"目前美國提供給台灣的軍售裝備相關的供應鏈跟零組件來源國防部是否有完整掌握能不能保證完全不存在中國製的零組件風險尤其是現在有很多軍用的零件全球供應鏈高度複雜請問國防部是否有建立原產地查核機制 韌體安全檢驗"},{"start":12271.719,"end":12290.834,"text":"資安滲透測試第三方認證制度還是有其他的台灣今天存在最重要的就是我們可以在非紅化供應鏈當中佔領重要的一席之地也有靠我們的研發製造能力我們才能早日幫我們的有門國家一起去掉這個紅色供應鏈"},{"start":12291.895,"end":12307.675,"text":"目前他可能還有一些是必須的喔但是現在我們及早把它去掉這個紅色供應鏈進入到民主供應鏈的完整的時代那台灣就必須在掌握這個契機嘛我會認為說其實與其說在一直在做保證倒不如說我們應該好好建立這個制度啦"},{"start":12308.157,"end":12313.644,"text":"那我這邊提出三點具體的建議我提出三點具體的建議第一點全面地下化彈藥庫跟機動的陣地今天最怕的其實不是武器不夠先進而是說怕說什麼開戰第一波就掛掉"},{"start":12327.941,"end":12348.703,"text":"高價武器如果沒有地下化、分散化、備援化那就只是昂貴的煙火那我要求國防部全面盤點地下化油庫、地下化彈藥庫、備援機動陣地、暫時偽裝設施因為真正的現代戰爭第一件事情不是射飛彈而是找目標誰藏得久誰才打得久"},{"start":12349.304,"end":12373.015,"text":"第二,建立暫時快速量產體系,台灣不能永遠只會買武器,真正的國防任性是要自己能生武器,包括飛彈零件、通訊設備、電站模組、衛星通訊備援,都必須建立在民間跟暫時的量產能力,所以不然一旦被封鎖、補給中斷,我們買再多軍購都只是一次性消耗品。"},{"start":12373.655,"end":12389.323,"text":"我知道我們都沒談到無人機可是我老實說我們去不去把STARLAND或STARSHIELD這種低軌道衛星的設備轉變進來而是我們現在還是用英國那個OPEN WEB我如果記得OPEN WEB還是OPEN WEB那個系統是緩不濟急的"},{"start":12392.805,"end":12411.137,"text":"那我認為說其實如果我們一旦被封鎖補給中斷,買再多軍購都是一次消耗品我認為未來真正重要的不是平時庫存多少,而是暫時每個月能生產多少第三個,我剛剛部長說要成立專案辦公室所以說應該會建立一個非紅供應鏈的國防採購標準對吧"},{"start":12413.098,"end":12433.704,"text":"那既然政府已經要求國內廠商不得使用中國大陸跟港澳製零組件那麼對台所有的軍售案也應該採取相同的標準國防不是嘴巴喊抗中但是供應鏈卻還在依賴紅色零件真正最重要的不是只有武器的名稱而是晶片從哪裡來"},{"start":12435.865,"end":12460.781,"text":"通訊模組誰生產電子元件誰供貨軟體、韌體誰維護因為未來戰爭打的不是只有飛彈還有資安、後門、電池滲透、供應鏈控制所以說我在這邊要要求國防部全力建立軍購的非紅供應鏈審查制度剛剛講專案辦公室應該可以做得到這一點不分國內外廠商一律採同樣的標準"},{"start":12461.701,"end":12486.615,"text":"最後老實說,真正愛國的人不會只問買多少武器而是會問這些武器是不是真的能保護到人民今天立法院監督軍購不是反對國防恰恰相反,因為我們在乎中華民國的安全所以才必須幫人民買一分納稅錢,問清楚查明白所以請委員能夠支持非紅供應鏈的國防自主產"},{"start":12487.918,"end":12487.938,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13085.831,"end":13111.544,"text":"好報應會我們繼續開會接下來我們請王定宇委員質詢王宏威委員請準備好謝謝院長麻煩卓院長跟顧部長麻煩再請卓院長國防部長備詢"},{"start":13123.872,"end":13147.824,"text":"黃委員好韓院長為你加油那你可以多給我15分鐘啊好 那個卓院長跟顧部長我剛有聽到有一些同仁在提到我們這是不對稱戰力那有些載台它是不是不對稱戰力我想因為剛才部長沒有充分的時間回答啦比方說像M109A7這個自走報有多重要呢因為我們現在國家的"},{"start":13148.825,"end":13165.044,"text":"砲兵不管是用牽引砲或救世的砲他從放獵到打完到撤收都超過三分半以上而現在反砲兵雷達兩分鐘就會回擊所以會造成我們的砲兵弟兄姊妹的存活率"},{"start":13165.805,"end":13182.612,"text":"大幅降低所以這個不僅僅是提高我們現有砲兵的戰力精準度射程它也是我們砲兵弟兄姊妹性命攸關的裝備它可以分散部署對 它一台A7其實就相當於過去傳統砲的一個砲兵營的火力"},{"start":13185.313,"end":13197.699,"text":"那另外在反登陸上以俄烏戰爭來講其實大家都看到很fancy的無人機其實俄烏戰爭主要的火力火協還是靠這些砲兵部隊所以回到我要問的第一個問題在"},{"start":13201.179,"end":13217.894,"text":"這兩天也就是川習會後520前後我們發現中共解放軍對第一島鏈還有台灣的軍事騷擾有一些新的動態比方說在遼寧號的艦隊到西太平洋進行軍演"},{"start":13218.695,"end":13238.192,"text":"另外戰備警巡穿越台海這個正在發生當中那我先請教院長穿席會後那另外520其實對民主的台灣對我們的國家來講520不管馬英九蔡英文任何人包含賴清德總統是我們台灣的民主喜事"},{"start":13239.98,"end":13256.445,"text":"選總統的週年 台灣人民行使選擇權的大喜之日但是520我們的喜事 中共一定來鬧事所以對於川習會後以及520左右的時間中國鬧事這件事情你們怎麼看待這件事"},{"start":13257.443,"end":13284.085,"text":"是從1996年開始這30年來中國中共的建基在台海各種形式大大小小的軍演或是聯合戰備警巡實在是不斷的發生尤其最近一段時間以來頻密非常的高但至於委員所提到的川習會之後以及52年的前後就我個人的觀察因為國防部應該有更精確並沒有太特別的聯合戰備警巡大概兩週"},{"start":13285.726,"end":13312.959,"text":"或者每一週都有跟委員報告因為他挑在519嘛對那雖然在520的前夕嘛所以這個我想合乎這個挑在519一種行為的模式啦那另外我們也要特別的說明就是說你看他在519特別來實施這個聯合戰備警訊那麼5艘的共艦抵進這個二次海域"},{"start":13316.15,"end":13330.787,"text":"那已經接近我們的應變區了那我想我們主要要來說明一件事情就是說對台海區域和平穩定的挑釁的一方到底是誰這件事情要弄清楚我就是要問這個訊息"},{"start":13332.128,"end":13361.147,"text":"川習會後特別提到說誰在改變現狀誰是印太第一島鏈這個區域的麻煩製造者中國就自己證明了我只覺得比較有趣的519對我們520總統就職有人看到是黨派其實這是一個民主的喜事那中國帶著軍艦來這邊騷擾然後我們立法院那天也在投彈劾票這兩件事情其實蠻有意思的那我現在要問的是"},{"start":13362.047,"end":13388.662,"text":"當中國在進行這一個不管是聯合戰備警巡或遼寧號的操演的時候我們國防部呢揭露了發布了我們情監偵相關的相片像這一個有人講叫高清版這個相片的內容我們是透過什麼樣裝備去拍到的能不能講狙擊手夾娼狙擊手夾娼嘛那狙擊手夾娼在標定"},{"start":13391.707,"end":13391.867,"text":"我想這個"},{"start":13408.24,"end":13426.266,"text":"我不想在這裡做一個那個軍武頻道都有說啦但你不講我尊重你但我要請教部長的是當對方用軍事力量威脅我們我們國防部我們辛苦的國軍健兒去公布這樣子的監控的相片你要傳達的意思是什麼"},{"start":13427.403,"end":13441.68,"text":"我們傳達的意思很明顯就是說他在520之前的519這樣的一個日子實施這樣的聯合戰備警訊事實上就是反映著他對於台海的這個現狀他蓄意要進行破壞"},{"start":13442.481,"end":13465.784,"text":"那麼要傳達的就是他就是一個挑釁的一方那他的動作證明他是一個蓄意破壞現況的一個坦白講不遵守國際法律的政權但是我們台灣我們的政府我們的國防部公布了這個非常清晰的用狙擊手夾槍標定的相片你們公布了蠻多的那我們國防部這個動作要展現的意義是什麼"},{"start":13467.001,"end":13470.804,"text":"我們有能力看得到他 標得到他所以也代表我們有能力反擊到他嘛如果他要欺負我們國家的話"},{"start":13488.856,"end":13504.25,"text":"這個標定其實也代表我看得到你我當然也打得到你部長這沒錯吧是你可以帶著笑容說但是我們的能力我們國軍也不是吃素的好那我接下來要請教的是"},{"start":13505.481,"end":13534.039,"text":"川習會大家有很多分析川普講了什麼話Rubio講了什麼話其實簡單來講川普跟Rubio呈現就是對台政策對台承諾不變但是對於中國宣稱對台灣的頑強的態度他採取戰略模糊的態度隱隱大概是這個基調但我特別找到川普當天在空軍一號上特別說有關那是記者問他Fox News他最喜歡的頻道問他"},{"start":13535.14,"end":13549.809,"text":"arm sales to Taiwan就是對台灣軍售的部分那川普特別回答說我很快next early short period我很快的就會做決定第二個Johnson"},{"start":13550.993,"end":13565.453,"text":"這個共和黨籍的國會議長他也說中國你不能說想要併吞想要拿下這個島國也就是台灣就拿下我們包含國會會堅定的站這個立場"},{"start":13566.877,"end":13593.444,"text":"所以等於共和黨的國會議長以及川普總統大概對台灣不能被中國用軍事力量說要併吞就併吞有表達他的立場我要請教院長我先問院長川普總統講說他很快他這個很快就會做決定其實隨後他們的財政部長也特別表達說這個事情態度沒變就你了解這個很快是什麼時候會做決定"},{"start":13595.829,"end":13610.398,"text":"我很難在這個時候預計很快是什麼時候但是從川普總統之後美國數位國會的領袖所講的話包括國務卿盧比奧所講的話都代表兩個意義第一個就是對台的政策並沒有改變"},{"start":13611.218,"end":13639.926,"text":"第二個是對中共而言並沒有做出任何的承諾所以這兩點來看美國過去不贊同以武力或強迫方式來改變台海現狀的這個政策跟這個要求並沒有任何的改變那同樣的在這樣情況底下維持台灣有高度的足夠的國防自主能力應該是在這個前提底下必須滿足的所以我相信應該盡快我要問院長跟部長的事川普總統就說他來決定很快就要決定"},{"start":13641.363,"end":13664.561,"text":"所以就你們台美雙方當然溝通很順暢這個決定會做吧就是賣多少或者軍購多少項目這個決定會不會做美國也有十位以上的議員要求趕快就140億的這個軍購能夠盡快的核准希望美國政府能夠盡快核准所以我認為他還是有一個力量在追導致現狀會往"},{"start":13667.376,"end":13695.265,"text":"對台灣比較正向發展但我們沒辦法去替他做決定但我要請教院長跟部長是你剛才提到金額140億美金我有聽到120億美金我有聽到140億美金那就你們判斷會在140億120億以上以下或者無法確定我想這個應該現在沒有辦法說明因為我想委員也知道現在還沒有自衛國會之前"},{"start":13696.894,"end":13712.122,"text":"我想我們還是維持一個機密的方式我尊重基於國家利益基於盟友之間保密是應該的所以基本上我們台北之間還是要有互信所以基本上會有個決定決定的金額"},{"start":13712.822,"end":13735.131,"text":"美國國會也在催促不管是140億美金或等等那我想接下來我們很快會看到那你剛才顧部長有提到140億這個智慧國會錢是屬於機密這幾十年來不管誰執政都是這樣子美國智慧美國國會之後就會轉為公開的訊息所以我就要問跟我們今天特別條例有關"},{"start":13737.422,"end":13759.773,"text":"這個在野黨主導的特別條例其實是一個很荒謬的我坦白講叫做卡卡條例為什麼叫卡卡條例呢你知道那個條文裡面有寫什麼條文裡面寫通過後一個月內這是一個時間就發架書向立法院提專案報告立法院同意後才能籌編預算"},{"start":13762.444,"end":13778.765,"text":"這跟一般我們過去通過的特別條例不一樣我相信我們韓院長也知道我們以前通過不管是治水的特別條例或者是花東的這個上一次馬太安的那個特別條例我們以往通過特別條例"},{"start":13780.123,"end":13802.278,"text":"行政部門就可以編預算那預算還要回到立法院我們再來審查該報告就報告該審查就審查結果對國防這麼重要的特別條例是什麼呢我通過特別條例你不能編預算你要先來立法院報告也不是你要來報告就報告喔我要看到LOA我要看到發架書你再來報告"},{"start":13803.186,"end":13832.586,"text":"然後報告完我立法院要同意你才能籌編預算送進來再來審查預算中間多了這一塊這一塊還不至於叫它卡卡卡卡在哪裡呢卡卡在LOA我這邊有一個表以往不管國民黨執政任何人執政我們以往的程序是什麼你知道嗎是我們提出LOR我們的需求信函"},{"start":13833.544,"end":13862.004,"text":"提出需求信函之後台美雙方溝通溝通溝通就有一個建案建案的時候呢這時候還在機密範圍內台灣就先憋機密預算美方就準備通知美國國會這個時候便預算預算下來之後呢美方正式智慧國會這是第二個時間點第一個是LOR那智慧美國國會之後呢這個時候就會公開了美國智慧國會要同意賣台灣什麼裝備什麼裝備"},{"start":13864.339,"end":13890.986,"text":"這個時候呢我們就會進行發架書內容的諮商接下來才會有發架書而發架書出來就只剩30天45天的時間那這代表什麼意思你知道嗎等到發架書出來才來立法院報告報告完再來籌編預算籌編預算再送進來不好意思根本來不及啊就會產生這一次跟海馬仕一樣哇來不及了好趕喔趕快用怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":13892.586,"end":13915.022,"text":"也就是等發架書,再來專報,專報再來籌編預算,籌編預算再來審預算永遠來不及,每一次都會很趕所以其實我們在委員會審查的時候,賴氏堡委員當場說他聽懂了那知會國會可不可以所以韓院長,韓院長本身過去是軍校出身的,應該是很支持國家安全的"},{"start":13916.178,"end":13943.434,"text":"這個是跟黨派無關,這是單純的程序問題以前馬總統當總統買阿帕契也是這樣子每一任總統都是在LOR的時候,這是有第一個價格這時候價格都不確定,這時候參謀就籌編預算了然後呢,知會國會的時候又有一個價格然後呢,LOA的時候又有一個價格最後簽約那才是真正的價格所以你用LOA來編預算其實也不準啊"},{"start":13944.551,"end":13973.409,"text":"那我認為朝野不同的監督的要求我們可以思考看看因為在LOA真的會來不及那是不是在LOR的時候編那也許藍白在野黨不願意至少在知會國會的時候至少這其實已經很趕了至少在知會的國會的時候就應該要專報編預算而不是在LOA因為在LOA在行政作業程序上明顯就卡住了"},{"start":13973.809,"end":13996.369,"text":"你又要我一個月專報這邊LOA又一個月內會生效根本沒辦法變預算我不知道部長或院長對這事情有什麼看法所以這個地方就涉及到要簽署發價書對不對那簽署發價書依照立法院的決議要預算通過才能簽署發價書所以才會發生上一次在還沒有特別條例都還沒有過不要說預算啦特別還沒有先行授權這個不是一個常態"},{"start":13998.471,"end":14018.68,"text":"會有先行授權 會有墊付 會有...再來就是投機款 對不對現在又有說要我們用預算法84條那報請行政核定要來出這都是因為說要看到發價書我們才能夠籌備預算這個其實是我們這個立法上的瑕疵所以我昨天說過今天跟昨天的議程應該對調才對而且兩次換"},{"start":14021.641,"end":14028.788,"text":"因為我現在時間到了我真的希望在我們韓院長的領導下這一個點可以調整因為這一個真的跟黨派"},{"start":14031.929,"end":14057.84,"text":"這卡住會造成每一次都要電腦每一次都要預借每一次都要做輸送的處理事實上我跟賴委員有提過大家聽起來比信上去死好這個事情好吧 我們最起碼會到美國吃會 美國國外賣就要賣了這個時候才進行編譯算專報的程序否則到LOA真的每一次都不准入外這個價格也應對所以今天時間關係我還有很多印章產業沒辦法問"},{"start":14060.677,"end":14062.199,"text":"好 謝謝王定宇委員質詢謝謝主委長 國防部長貝勳 謝謝好 接下來我們請王宏威委員質詢范雲委員請準備"},{"start":14084.124,"end":14092.912,"text":"好謝謝主席請卓院長還有我們國防部部長顧部長麻煩再請卓院長國防部長備選黃委員好"},{"start":14104.503,"end":14125.692,"text":"院長部長辛苦了院長我想在軍購特別預算之前我先問一個民生的議題因為今天台電董事長曾董事長提到就是因為現在美伊戰爭還沒有結束那現在台電因為大家都知道中油跟台電都在虧損中"},{"start":14126.872,"end":14129.636,"text":"所以說10月份有調漲電價的壓力我想請問10月份會有調漲電價的可能嗎"},{"start":14142.876,"end":14161.872,"text":"跟委員報告台電因為吸收了很多LNG的這個漲價的這個負擔所以他財務狀況確實是我們值得檢討我們知道中油的狀況其實也吸收了很多的台電是也吸收了台電發電這部分是台電吸收的那中油是民生用品這個中油吸收"},{"start":14163.093,"end":14178.176,"text":"行政院的立場是在這個時候戰爭還在情勢未明當中我們以穩定民生為優先但是電價漲不漲如何調整是省議委員會那我認為省議委員會也會觀測到整個社會的需求跟民生的穩定"},{"start":14178.616,"end":14198.69,"text":"具體的建議,第一因為現在美伊戰爭還沒有結束所以為什麼我們現在包含油價也在動漲之中那我覺得在沒有結束之前不宜去談到說未來可能調漲電價第二尤其也發生了台電最近在改他的Logo的事情"},{"start":14199.21,"end":14210.416,"text":"也引起很多社會大眾的疑慮認為台電在虧損的狀況之下還有錢去換LOGO在這樣的疑慮之下我也認為不宜來談到調漲電價以上"},{"start":14218.82,"end":14235.594,"text":"院長部長在這次的川習會有關於對台軍售成為熱門的話題那當然剛才院長也好部長也好都強調這美國對台政策沒有改變但是我想請問一下"},{"start":14237.56,"end":14262.799,"text":"美台之間的關係最重要的就是台灣關係法以及在雷根總統時代對台灣的六項保證這個過去大家將近半世紀都沒有被打破的可是在這一次的川習會裡面談到了對台軍售我想請問院長這個部分有沒有違反"},{"start":14263.991,"end":14277.877,"text":"原來台美之間六項保證裡面的其中一項也就是我們有關於美國對台的軍售是不會向中華人民共和國來談論或徵詢意見的"},{"start":14280.198,"end":14297.731,"text":"這是保證六項當中很重要的一項保證但我們從川普總統這一次的講話當中也沒有直接的看到對這個保證的一個改變反倒是在美國國會立場裡面他的各黨團他的一個課內議員都提到要"},{"start":14298.291,"end":14300.933,"text":"美國政府遵守1992年的這個六項保證倒是有這樣的聲音正面的是這樣子"},{"start":14328.391,"end":14343.307,"text":"我們也必須非常清楚的讓美方知道也就是說今天對台軍售不宜超越這個六項保證裡面長期將近半世紀以來的一個約定"},{"start":14344.088,"end":14367.713,"text":"我們是不是也可以對美方來做這樣的強調我們會經由各方努力但我們剛剛我說的是經由美國國會的一些領袖對1982年的這個六項保證是有正面希望美方政府還是要繼續遵守所以我們到現在沒有聽到因為如果這個保證不能夠遵守的話那就會出現破口啊所以我們現在沒有聽到要"},{"start":14368.854,"end":14391.591,"text":"不繼續這樣六項保證的任何直接的事情是沒有反正正面的是希望美方繼續遵守那我請問一下院長跟部長因為剛才王定宇委員也問其實很多委員都有問也就是第二階段的美國對台軍售當然因為現在川普沒有講時間那麼未來三個月內有沒有可能"},{"start":14392.572,"end":14399.09,"text":"能夠川普核定第二階段的對台軍售三個月內有沒有可能"},{"start":14401.319,"end":14427.409,"text":"我們的評估跟委員報告我想首先第一個川普在這個空軍一號上面的發言裡面你又可以看得到第一個他說是中國主動提起那他才跟他進行討論然後第二個他說是由他做成決定而不是要跟中方然後爭取中方的統一對 他有強調是他來決定但是他們確實談到這個議題甚至提到說他要跟"},{"start":14428.369,"end":14448.624,"text":"台灣這邊做這個商議所以我想跟美台之間的軍購本來就是在美台之間來進行商議這個我想還是被維持住那我們認為對台政策的沒有改變這句話有兩個重要的意向第一個就是台海的和平穩定的這個現狀是美國的核心利益"},{"start":14449.164,"end":14477.202,"text":"美國不希望看到任何的戰事在這裡發生那這其中第二個依照台灣關係法的規範美國長期以提供自我防衛的能力來作為建構台海和平穩定的一個基礎我在這邊就沒有講到說有關於他有違反台灣關係法的這個的這個所以我們認為還是但是有關於這一次其實我知道我們現在我們的政府是全力希望能夠"},{"start":14478.604,"end":14492.52,"text":"我講的好聽一點是來安定民心講的難聽一點是粉飾太平因為院長部長如果你們去看外媒的報導根本不是我們所想的這麼一回事"},{"start":14494.184,"end":14520.982,"text":"紐約時報甚至直接說這次的川習會是川普送給習近平的一個大禮你可以看到很多外媒在整個的評估這次川習會其實他們的疑慮是很深的那至於我剛才講三個月內有沒有可能部長你們的評估我們會透過各方面的努力然後我們也持續跟美國的相關我為什麼講三個月因為呢"},{"start":14522.426,"end":14547.05,"text":"九月份習近平又要回訪美國那同樣的狀況會再來一次如果三個月內我們沒有辦法取得第二階段的這個軍售的話那很可能又受到九月份再一次的川習會的影響好 那我想接下來我是要比較關心的就是我們這一段時間裡面一直在談有關於這個軍購的問題"},{"start":14550.251,"end":14572.427,"text":"那麼這兩天我們部長有講F16V是我們國人非常關心的你說九月份第一架會來台灣這是你昨天的說法嘛對不對我事實上之前在外交官委員會也已經說過了好那請問一下九月份只來一架嗎"},{"start":14573.533,"end":14596.979,"text":"不是就是說我們希望就陸續從九月份開始陸續交機因為我剛剛講說第一架我想說這什麼意思它是展示品嗎不是只有一架就是說是陸續來交機這個其實大家非常關切因為到目前為止本來應該今年66架都應該全數交機的"},{"start":14599.58,"end":14625.61,"text":"那另外再請教一下MK48重型魚雷這個部分因為也有嚴重的延宕本來也是今年應該完全交運那請問一下如果是今年的話大概可以來幾枚呢我們現在因為這個合約商重啟產線的進度落後交運的期程會調整到這個117年"},{"start":14627.805,"end":14637.897,"text":"所以今年不會來?今年沒有了?我們教育的期程在跟免防商議,但是我想應該是會在117年才能夠開始教育"},{"start":14639.012,"end":14664.228,"text":"所以這個他的延宕的情形更更嚴重也就是說他原來規劃是到今年底就要全數完成交運的然後呢delaydelay到117年再做全數的交運那現在再delay變成117年才可以開始交貨是不是這意思"},{"start":14664.85,"end":14676.213,"text":"原規劃是115年全數獲得現在是要改成從117年開始交易117年才可以開始交貨所以我們今年看不到"},{"start":14677.509,"end":14705.869,"text":"是不是好再來好這個又是一個這個這個非常嚴當情形非常嚴重再來海空號他不在對美方的採購裡面但是請問一下海空號你們預計是六七月會交件可是現在已經五月了現在就已經五月所以部長你掌握的時程海空號到底什麼時候可以交件他已經delay"},{"start":14706.92,"end":14727.212,"text":"將近半年 我想我們從來沒有一個預定的一個說哪一月份要交件我們要的就是一個在安全跟合乎需求的一個品質下 當然安全最重要所以相關的驗測那我們也看到了就是說這個潛水潛航已經進行了多次那超雷的這個"},{"start":14729.012,"end":14735.795,"text":"試測也已經完成了那我們接下來還會再陸續依照相關的這個驗測的程序書的要求來進行完成驗測我想台船跟海軍都有希望能夠"},{"start":14749.022,"end":14776.463,"text":"能夠盡快的完成這些但是我從國安部的立場我們從安全跟品質的要求之下我們要認為才能夠完成才能夠進行交件我剛才提到的幾項都是你們自己承認延宕而且事實上現在外界非常關心的也就是說在我們整個的軍購的進度裡面我們希望就是該買的要買該付的錢要付但是該交的貨也要交貨另外一個議題"},{"start":14777.984,"end":14798.456,"text":"就最近他討論無人機我覺得不要把這種隨便的大帽子又扣在在野黨好像在野黨不要無人機杯葛無人機事實上我自己在內政委員會到目前為止內政部也採購很多的無人機那我們都是全數的支持"},{"start":14799.396,"end":14823.777,"text":"因為它不管是海巡的部分也好或者是它是警用的救災用的或者是消防使用可是問題是在無人機的採購裡面或者是在無人機反制系統採購裡面最近又發生大家的質疑最近網路熱議的一個就是"},{"start":14824.457,"end":14841.578,"text":"他的規模標案高達9.8億的無人機反制系統結果呢兩次的測試都是0分結果呢你們國防部繼續給他補考的機會讓他六月份還可以補考這合約規範啊"},{"start":14843.824,"end":14863.869,"text":"都按照合約規範按照合約規範他去年底就應該完成交機了交這個反制系統按照合約規定他應該去年就已經完成了你到今年六月再給他考一次就有合約規範的那個法案那相關的這些驗測的幾次這個都也是合約規範所律定的嗎"},{"start":14864.529,"end":14879.674,"text":"這個部長你不用太激動因為有關於創未來事實上不管是媒體報導也好或者業界的討論也好甚至有人直指說因為創未來可以直通顧部長的辦公室"},{"start":14881.494,"end":14906.133,"text":"那我就想請問從未來在113年的3月他被檢察院糾正國防部院長可能不知道檢察院糾正國防部是什麼呢因為當時這個是有很多的反制系統一共四家在做然後因為沒有辦法整合"},{"start":14907.257,"end":14933.871,"text":"結果國防部這是監察院的糾正文國防部明知廠商技術能力不足堅持辦理研究案而且直接指定創未來去整合其他家的系統可是問題是另外三家都沒有授權書給創未來所以這個事情告到監察院監察院在113年3月22號提出糾正"},{"start":14937.485,"end":14958.822,"text":"結果114年1月國防部就以9.8億的無人機本質系統讓創未來得標讓創未來得標而這個得標第一次是流標的第一次流標因為不足三家為什麼呢因為其他家不會來了"},{"start":14960.273,"end":14976.118,"text":"因為他們看得太清楚了因為整個的有四家在做系統的開發結果讓創未來一家去做整合而其他三家是不願意把授權輸給創未來但是國防部仍然指定創未來繼續來做"},{"start":14977.915,"end":14996.622,"text":"被監察院糾正之後繼續的標案還是給創未來9.8億所以我要講的是我們過去有這麼多的國防的標案不管是茶葉的茶葉商也好賣馬桶的賣鞋子的"},{"start":14997.725,"end":15008.328,"text":"更何況這些不管是無人機也好或者無人機的反制系統也好我同意剛才部長講的反制系統重不重要 非常非常的重要可是如果的程序超凡的是連媒體都大幅的報道非常多次而你的國防部完全不理不睬這當然理念大家都會覺得有毛病所以不許我們父民支持無人機採購"},{"start":15039.116,"end":15042.461,"text":"正常的非階級採購 因為應該有非階級採購我們都全力支持但是我們不支持像這樣一臉 一點蟲蟲的表愛 好不好"},{"start":15053.612,"end":15058.113,"text":"我們接下來要請今天最後一位登記的委員范雲委員請自選謝謝韓院長有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":15090.921,"end":15106.386,"text":"謝謝卓院長今天辛苦了昨天一場專案報告然後今天又一場預算編列的報告我今天主要是想請問被藍白丟下的4700億到底如何補回"},{"start":15107.346,"end":15128.662,"text":"我想不知道院長怎麼看我們這次的特別條例的名稱叫保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例您覺得這裡面大概有多少是在強化不對稱戰力還是強化不對稱戰力是不是有很多的東西其實是被丟包了"},{"start":15130.737,"end":15146.793,"text":"整個特別條例跟特別預算的最癥結的重心點就是在發揮我們不對稱戰力我們看看惡霧戰爭就好了以小博大不對稱戰力而且要長期有個大量穩定的一個支持系統在後勤甚至將"},{"start":15148.214,"end":15162.928,"text":"能夠自主研發自己來製造才能避免當外援為了來一擊送過來的時候我們如果來自己研發製造相關所需要的武器設備所以應該是要這幾個層面都要"},{"start":15163.849,"end":15185.22,"text":"涵蓋住另外重要的是我們這裡有一個台灣之盾那台灣之盾在現在7800億當中也沒有全然也沒有包含在裡面那我們高科技的擊殺鏈也有部分的缺漏所以這整個7800億跟原來的1.25兆的整個特別條例跟特別預算的精神裡面當然落差很大我們勢必要想辦法補救"},{"start":15186.025,"end":15205.046,"text":"我想這個跟委員報告我想不對稱的有一個當然除了激動隱匿跟致命的一個活力之外一個最重要就一個成本效益的概念那這個我想大家也您都很清楚那無人機或者無人艇這個裡面就是很重要的一個具有成本效益的一個"},{"start":15206.087,"end":15232.788,"text":"在台海的防衛作戰上面扮演的這種我們如果要做成一個地域景象的話是一個很重要的一個那這個就是要透過國防自主產業鏈自主生產才有可能我們不可能去外購然後到了戰事的時候還能夠維持這樣的韌性然後這樣子的一個自主製造的能力這個烏克蘭的戰爭中看得非常非常的清楚所以現在俄國也在發展它的無人機產業"},{"start":15234.53,"end":15251.268,"text":"生產鏈然後烏克蘭也有他自己的生產鏈我想從院長跟部長講的這次這個條例應該要改名因為強化不對稱戰略裡面的兩個重點台灣之盾沒有完整然後無人載具的這個產業鏈也幾乎沒有了"},{"start":15253.79,"end":15275.43,"text":"那我不知道剛剛顧部長您聽了那個林沛翔委員的問題有什麼感受我在那邊覺得挺荒謬的因為他最後不是還問您說這個現代的戰爭什麼不能夠只重視重型的這些武器然後還請教他提到兩個重點第一個就是國防自主的重要性第二個他想要彈藥這個"},{"start":15277.452,"end":15301.958,"text":"我問您彈藥可以撐多久對不對對 彈藥重點 我剛剛有回答他如果就彈藥的生產線我們在特別預算我們要增加14條的生產線那這個完全被刪掉所以他剛剛提到說作戰在持續力上面要增加這個彈藥的這個囤儲甚至增加彈藥的自主生產能量那這個部分剛好就被砍掉了那國防自主就是剛剛講的就是無人機那我們就是要"},{"start":15303.659,"end":15323.533,"text":"這個不假外求我們要建立自主的產業鏈那這個也全部被砍掉了對 所以我懷疑他的助理幫他寫這個質詢稿是不是在害他就是好像並不是很了解他們到底刪除了什麼那我想這一次我們有看到就不只是我們國內非常多的支持者失望"},{"start":15324.373,"end":15350.143,"text":"在這個被刪除之後很多的網友自主性的告訴大家無人機跟無人機產業應該講無人載具因為無人艇其實也包含在裡面那我們的國際盟友也表達失望這邊有新聞報導美國的高級官員覺得希望未通過的部分也能夠到位那這邊是我們民進黨團整理的這一次被刪除的衝突請問部長這邊並沒有遺漏吧"},{"start":15353.365,"end":15375.501,"text":"剛剛那個林佩祥委員講的就是第四項他完全不了解他們刪除了這個產能擴充產線彈藥的部分他最後還講說戰爭最重要的就是國內要有民間的生產線也完全就是遺忘了我們這一次所講的就是就是後職就是本土的"},{"start":15376.601,"end":15400.779,"text":"這是國防的產業主要就是講無人載具的部分這個圖是我上次總質詢的時候部長應該記得我拿以色列的鐵穹來問您請問一下這次台灣之盾是不是整個大腦指揮系統都被刪除了還是還有一部分這部分請顧部長可以回答嗎因為剛剛院長有說這其實就不完整了"},{"start":15404.339,"end":15417.111,"text":"應該這樣回答就是說我們整個AI指管系統部分在這個案項裡面沒有被納入至於其他的部分我想現在還不能夠說得太清楚"},{"start":15418.358,"end":15441.576,"text":"好 那其實就是我們剛剛所說的是第三項這個部分嗎就是這個民進黨團做的我們的AI的這個輔助指揮決策系統這個部分被刪除還有我們現在這個台灣戰術網路因為台灣戰術網路現在是作為我們地面作戰共同作戰圖像一個很重要的網路系統那藉由這個"},{"start":15442.777,"end":15467.285,"text":"TEC的這個決志套件然後來建立我們的共同作案圖像那這個共同作案圖像以後會越來越擴張那擴張以後就成為一個我們作為這個再加上AI的這個指揮決策之後就形成一個共同的作案圖像那這個對我們未來的作戰我是認為非常非常的重要"},{"start":15468.726,"end":15491.746,"text":"對 謝謝部長的說明以我對這次中東還有以色列的理解人民能夠繼續的生活維持原來的生活方式跟這個鐵穹的保護網非常的重要那國際上也說美國其實也有一個被叫做金穹所以我們這次這個臺灣之盾非常的重要那很遺憾這次有一些重要的大腦指揮系統也被刪除"},{"start":15493.507,"end":15520.23,"text":"無人機跟烏克蘭的經驗我想大家剛剛都講了很多我們也看到因為它的製造成本低比一輛中古車還便宜它在這次的俄國戰爭中精準打擊俄軍的後勤跟防空真的是以小博大所以我想剛剛大家也有提到烏克蘭從產量零到年產量五百萬架"},{"start":15521.851,"end":15533.856,"text":"烏克蘭可以做到我們臺灣一定能做到因為我們臺灣現在就有267家的業者投入無人機供應鏈請問顧部長你應該知道經濟學人是哪一國的雜誌部長知道"},{"start":15541.243,"end":15562.796,"text":"經濟學人對他不是美國的他也不是台灣的他基本上是很獨立的以英國這邊為主的對所以沒有人能夠影響他寫什麼這是今年三月經濟學人有一篇在講台灣的無人機他裡面就是談到說全球無人載具的供應鏈七到八成被中國佔據"},{"start":15564.197,"end":15580.875,"text":"民主国家认为这是安全的威胁而且他深入的去讲台湾的无人机产业现在就有两个实例第一个已经发展出完全不含中国制的零组件第二个价格更具竞争力"},{"start":15581.676,"end":15598.312,"text":"比同樣的日本的不含中國領主建的還要便宜許多所以他也訪問了我們本土廠商結果本土廠商說最擔心政治因素會導致國家需求有一年有 一年沒有"},{"start":15598.752,"end":15615.384,"text":"因為俄烏戰爭如果結束了市場的需求會變低那會讓在地的飛鴻供應鏈高度的擔憂所以產能可能也沒有辦法降我有看到金玉璇她也有報導就是說台灣無人機產業快速出口她講到是2025年的那個"},{"start":15617.425,"end":15636.019,"text":"出口量已經超過2024年的35倍他有提到所以這個可見我們無人機的這個部分在我們半導體還有我們軟體開發跟機密機械的部分因為領先全球所以我們是認為有相當好的一個條件來發展無人機產業鏈"},{"start":15639.259,"end":15658.847,"text":"這個部分我們也就是希望透過一個長單一個規模穩定的預算讓他們有信心去建置這樣的一個產業國外的這些當然也有一定的技術會透過這樣的一個長單具有規模的需求量來跟我們國內進行合作形成一個迭代創新的良性發展"},{"start":15664.983,"end":15692.064,"text":"所以從部長講的就是長單非常的重要因為就是說國內就有基本的需求對廠商來講他要擴建產能要投資都很重要那可以請問部長就是我們剛講到烏克蘭現在年產量500萬架那台灣的當然我想這個價格包含就是無人載具各方面數量不一樣台灣現在的年產量大概用數字來講的話您知道是大概多少嗎"},{"start":15693.505,"end":15707.14,"text":"我想現在台灣的這個因為大部分都是我們有很多的中小企業他必須要聚合在一起那所以要做一些系統的整合就這個部分"},{"start":15708.177,"end":15728.876,"text":"做要要能夠完成這樣的一個系統整合就必須要政府要推一把那當然經濟部提供補助的政策那麼這個國防部率先來提出這個採購的一個策略我想這樣子才能夠提高我們所需要的這個產量他重點是在自主性"},{"start":15729.637,"end":15747.778,"text":"也就是說就像經濟學人講的我們有辦法做到沒有就是Made in China完全排除非紅的部分這是第一點第二點所有相關的這些迭代創新的這些技術都能夠落地在台灣那你如果還要仰賴國外的話"},{"start":15749.58,"end":15772.418,"text":"不是完全的自主那這樣子的防衛韌性還有作戰的持續力就會完全大幅的下降所以無人機是我們一個很有機會的一個增加戰力已經有媒體在認為說可能會是一個新的護國神山事實上是有這個潛能嘛你看像美伊的衝突"},{"start":15773.519,"end":15798.168,"text":"伊朗到現在為止他還有能力來這個用他的小黑的無人機來形成一定的一個威脅這個就是表示說即使他的防空系統被打掉了即使他的這些相關的很多指管的系統也被打掉了但是他還是有一定的這個無人機的話他還是會對區域產生一定的威脅"},{"start":15799.848,"end":15817.793,"text":"更有趣的就是美國現在要為了要不管是無人機或反制無人機他也開始採用這樣子的一個所謂成本效益cost effective這樣的一個概念來去發展這樣子的無人系統所以這個可以看到每一個國家那日本"},{"start":15820.314,"end":15841.131,"text":"黃岳大臣最近也公布了他們要建構無人機國航自主的產業能力所以他也表示他們要做所以這個民主的國家形成一個民主的供應鏈然後排除紅色的零組件我想這個是大家的一個共識我們當然要參與其中而且我們要加力"},{"start":15842.633,"end":15870.163,"text":"剛剛那個我在聽林佩祥委員他一直把我們跟烏克蘭比說我們沒有一個深厚的內陸喔等等然後我想他忘記了很多人都說我們有一個台灣海峽並沒有直接在陸地接連這是重要的差異那台灣海峽來講除了無人機之外那無人艇就是國防部的規劃跟想像是什麼呢因為很多人談到無人艇甚至有炸藥的無人艇其實對我們前線很重要"},{"start":15870.743,"end":15882.679,"text":"我們在這一次特別預算裡面規劃的是屬於這個自殺的無人艇大概1300多艘這個我想也是現在無人艇的這種"},{"start":15885.809,"end":15912.948,"text":"這種遠距的導控還有對於相關的這些通訊的維持等等我們一定要透過這樣子的一個採購來讓這個能力能夠提升那未來有機會台灣自己製造嗎無人艇我們就是要讓台灣自己能夠製造無人艇我們也都會自己製造包委員我去看過廠商他們已經有原型事實上就是國防部他們要選上"},{"start":15913.909,"end":15921.928,"text":"那非常可惜了就沒有拉進去他們已經準備好了那但是這個預算就可能還要再怎麼樣處理"},{"start":15922.878,"end":15943.732,"text":"那我想就是這個的確可以讓國人能夠知道的更仔細最後我想請問院長就是特別條例追加預算跟年度公務預算哪一個更能有助於耗值本土無人機產業因為剛講的長單非常的重要穩定性的每年都有需求不知道院長覺得這三個哪一個好"},{"start":15944.6,"end":15959.253,"text":"當然我們還要進一步的研議不過無人載具的這個產業如果我們要長期讓它有效的發展它勢必是一個相當可觀的一筆預算跟執行的年限那麼如果量是這樣大的話"},{"start":15959.833,"end":15972.757,"text":"那放在公務預算我會認為顯然沒有辦法在現在公務預算來全部的涵蓋當中所以必須要其他配套的方式或是加其他的方式才能辦法把無人機產業無人載具的產業能夠全數的在相當的時間內把它發展起來"},{"start":15977.516,"end":15993.871,"text":"謝謝院長我想和平唯一的保障是實力如同院長講的國家安全是臺灣經濟發展人民安居樂業的基礎那我們全力支持國防部把臺灣的安全補回來謝謝三位謝謝委員謝謝蔡英文委員質詢謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":16000.984,"end":16001.764,"text":"1.115年度中央政府保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力"},{"start":16018.47,"end":16039.147,"text":"計劃採購特別預算案交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查二將各委員發言記錄及書面質詢函送行政院請行政院就未答覆部分予以書面答覆三已提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊"},{"start":16041.104,"end":16056.11,"text":"我們現在繼續處理復議案本院民進黨團針對第九次會議報告事項第108案自決定提出復議案請公決案我們現在做以下決定令定期處理"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}