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照列本項通過決議三項第五項 照列本項通過決議兩項第六項 照列本項通過決議一項第七項 照列本項通過決議一項第27款 直轄市及縣市政府第四項 照列"},{"start":1925.51,"end":1940.505,"text":"一一五年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部主管附屬單位預算案均審查完均審查結果如下一四七首國立大學校園校務基金照案通過國立師範大學彰化師範大學台北教育大學校務基金均通過決議一項"},{"start":1943.889,"end":1965.909,"text":"2.國立台灣大學、成功大學、陽明交通大學、富瑟醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校消費基金、學產基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金均照案通過3.對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,請相關機關禁訴以順便答覆"},{"start":1967.11,"end":1983.781,"text":"4.在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員1.115年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理5.115年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及首屬單位預算直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款教育部主管部分預算案"},{"start":1984.742,"end":2006.308,"text":"教育部主管附屬單位預算案全部審查完略通過臨時提案一項5月21日討論事項審查一五年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案等兩案決議一報告及訊號完畢二一五年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案審查完略審查結果如下"},{"start":2007.288,"end":2031.725,"text":"稅出部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第四項照例第四款財產收入第五項增列一百萬元改列為六百五十五萬兩千元第七款其他收入第五項照例稅出部分第一款總統府主管第五項除第五目第一節佔照例是所屬非營業特種基金確定再行調整外局域經照例本項通過決議九十三項"},{"start":2034.449,"end":2058.544,"text":"3.15年度中央政府與總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案審查完畢,審查結果如下1.16計劃應依據基金來源及用途審查結果,隨同調整基金來源、基金用途、分期短處均照列結繳公庫五列數,補辦預算固定資產建設改良擴充1億0933萬7千元照列通過決議十三項"},{"start":2064.122,"end":2088.57,"text":"4.對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹與書面答覆5.在不影響文藝前提下授權醫事人員依《一五年度中央政府總預算案》審查報告與黨團協商置範率整理6.《一五年度中央政府總預算案》有關中央研究院單位預算案及中央研究院科學研究基金副使單位預算案全部審查完畢宣讀完畢"},{"start":2091.192,"end":2096.825,"text":"由于在场委员未达一决人数三人,伊士路稍后再行确定。"},{"start":2098.462,"end":2123.299,"text":"本次會議議程是審查第一115年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案及核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案第二115年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案首先"},{"start":2125.08,"end":2146.558,"text":"我们来介绍在场的委员有陈培宇委员辛苦了那接着呢介绍与会的官员首先介绍核能安全委员会陈明珍主任委员张鑫副主任委员"},{"start":2149.884,"end":2173.009,"text":"行政院主席总书公务预算处王浅凯专门委员其余列席的机关代表请参阅名单不再逐一介绍并列入公报记录现在进行报告邀请核能安全委员会陈明珍主委报告时间是6分钟"},{"start":2186.141,"end":2203.434,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家好今天很榮幸代表核能安全委員會並接通各單位主管向大院進行115年度預算報告首先向大院委員對本會各項工作的支持及指教致向敬意及謝誠"},{"start":2204.835,"end":2222.307,"text":"核能安全委员会持续提升国内原子能安全管制及科技发展,定性强化原子能安全管制,确保公共安全,妥善运用原子能技术,增进社会福祉,发展四世代能源技术,落实近年永续三大实战目标。"},{"start":2223.769,"end":2248.03,"text":"首先报告公务预算执行及编制核安会已经妥善运用114年预算完成核一厂部分设施被拆除作业审查及现场查证核拨核一厂室外干事组成设备运转执照办理日本寒川废水排放跨部会应用作业医疗部品保"},{"start":2248.993,"end":2260.144,"text":"原子能及科技合作研究科普推广及新世代核能技术研究等重要成果和安会及所属115年度税出编列42亿6286万"},{"start":2263.53,"end":2285.176,"text":"其中补助行政法人国家原子能科技研究院31亿984万2千元重点工作包含确保核能及放射性物料安全管制强化福安管制能量经济福灾紧急应变准备深化国际交流合作创新原子能科技应用及跨域整合等"},{"start":2286.405,"end":2299.439,"text":"所属侦测中心重点工作包括执行全国环境辐射监测作业强化摇测技术及智慧监测能力并进行环境辐射检测分析技术"},{"start":2301.81,"end":2322.95,"text":"税务部分115年度编列1152万2千元较前一年度减少3299万9千元主要是减少合一二场用过核子燃料干涉主存设施新建执照申请按审查费及核子反应器设施核子燃料及运转检查收入"},{"start":2324.451,"end":2341.681,"text":"在税初部分,1.5年度边缘预约42亿6286万5千元,就1.4年度增加4亿6481万2千元,着系增列捐助行政法人营业院发展。"},{"start":2342.341,"end":2359.223,"text":"包括国家药物任性准备计划、小型模组化SMR反应器研究计划、最新排放计划等4.37亿元,及检验70mEV回程加速器建制计划、老旧设施、台换费等经费。"},{"start":2361.533,"end":2389.584,"text":"以岁数计划比例来看人事级基本维持46%相较14年度减少0.19亿元社化计划增加3.19亿元主要是新增国家药物振兴准备计划而科技及工建计划支出增加1.63亿元主要增加SML研究计划净零排放计划等"},{"start":2390.529,"end":2403.595,"text":"接着报告原子事故紧急应变基因性114年度成果及115年度来源和用途114年度完成核安31号演机纳入无认机入侵"},{"start":2405.205,"end":2426.861,"text":"陆基千兆应用厨艺电厂及用过燃料池事件应处古早情境及防灾社区自助互助应处作业并演练陆海公寓环境侦测作业近约4500人参与"},{"start":2430.529,"end":2445.115,"text":"另外一半里主理书生演练、防灾援助会、新北市核电厂紧急应变区计划加防并制作核安防护阅地及有声版核子事故应变指南等多元沟通宣传"},{"start":2446.495,"end":2461.666,"text":"1.5年度核子事故紧急应变集中预算来源主要为紧急应变准备收入及利息收入共计1亿2475万5000元较去年因之其增加283万3000元"},{"start":2464.808,"end":2483.008,"text":"在基金用途部分115年度为9794.3万元就去年节约63.4万元主要是减少中央灾害应变计划国内旅费支援计划购置车辆消除站新式消除水门等经费"},{"start":2484.045,"end":2508.708,"text":"令整理核子事务应变阶段辐射数据图像化整合系统维护等经费而以计划比例来看中央灾害应变占45%其他是地方灾害应变及辐射监测各占30%及15%其余为行政管理资源及共识占10%最后在行政法人国家原子能科技研究院收支编列行政"},{"start":2510.751,"end":2522.76,"text":"国家原子研科学研究院为河岸会监督制行政复杂人重点工作包括核能与核活能科技服务应用及科技以及新能源技术发展15年度"},{"start":2523.925,"end":2544.51,"text":"科技研究重点包括进行SMR研究开发全球首次多类科技有效评估该功能进行核电厂被动式安全机制研究与能源基础设备安全技术发展声音科技辅助应用及参与卫福部之国家要务任期准备计划"},{"start":2545.35,"end":2572.483,"text":"另设置70MV中型回转加速器进行海域生物游船检测及放射性物质传输安全评估研究与跨部会合作进行多项与净零排放相关计划在115年度收入业绩数部分收入编列31亿7157万1千元就上年度增列3亿3992万4千元主要是增列执行政府补助营业发展收入计划"},{"start":2573.283,"end":2585.928,"text":"支出编列31亿7394万8千元较上年度增列3亿9883万7千元主要是增列业务费及服务成本收支三底后剩余162万3千元"},{"start":2588.601,"end":2605.116,"text":"核安会为国内核能辐射与放射性物料安全管制机关将秉持专业技术及依法严格执行各项管制工作确保各项原子能民生应用安全敬请各位委员对核安会的预算会予大力支持与协助谢谢"},{"start":2607.058,"end":2627.71,"text":"好謝謝陳主委的報告機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在先來確定議事錄請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好謝謝無錯誤或遺漏議事錄確定"},{"start":2634.397,"end":2663.544,"text":"我們現在開始進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘均不再延長發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於預算審查完畢後再行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理"},{"start":2664.525,"end":2669.557,"text":"首先请登记第一位柯志恩委员询答时间"},{"start":2675.834,"end":2702.413,"text":"因为那个高铁讯号异常所以我们有非常多的委员没有办法赶上所以委员可能召委可能要特别十点半登记截止可能要稍微宽容一下因为有很多人跟我反映他们需要更长的时间因为现在在台中的还没发动有接到这样的信息所以说那个最后这个截止的时间可能不是十点半因为今天这是突发状况所以不能规则于委员所以我们会等他们来"},{"start":2702.773,"end":2705.752,"text":"OK 好 感謝好 我們是不是請我們的主委"},{"start":2714.161,"end":2737.526,"text":"主委好我很少在一个会期当中看主委这么多次不过今天是我们的预算非看你不可来我们来看一下从你刚刚所报告的我们核安会每年都会在核物料管制业务当中编列的一部预算主要是要办理有关于放射性废弃物的最终储存的计划跟应变那你目前为止今年是编了2343万"},{"start":2739.887,"end":2758.193,"text":"但是呢這件事情我也不斷的質詢過貴單位但是呢我對台電這個做法是非常的消極然後呢他們對於所謂的最終儲存還有其實是中途其實態度都不是太積極然後呢你們一開始是罰錢後來變成是違規事項然後再變成更軟的注意改進事項你根本完全不痛不癢的那比較讓我困惑的就是你對他的消極態度沒轍但是你對這項預算你反而是越變越多"},{"start":2768.916,"end":2785.41,"text":"每年越变越多然后你现在不管说最终处置到底没有进展而且三座核电厂当中的终成目标的干储存设施目前的推动有任何的进展吗主委我们核安会对这个"},{"start":2787.331,"end":2807.737,"text":"各项计划都会持续的没有啊你的态度都非常消极预算越变越多我先告诉你你看我们这样核二用过的燃料棒目前只能是先放在炉心燃料池但是燃料池已经满了但是你看看核二项目前有规划重启势必你必须要把这个核燃料棒把它移出"},{"start":2808.317,"end":2833.277,"text":"所以室外乾除跟室內都非常的重要所以說呢到底預計什麼時候可以完工什麼時候可以取得這個運轉的執照而且我還是一次問不只室外的鋼純室內的乾除有必要性那三座核電廠目前來說室內乾除進行招標然後呢台電告訴大家是二零二八二零二九二零三二完成但不好意思我們來看一下一已經流標兩次"},{"start":2834.238,"end":2853.459,"text":"去年合一合二联合招标又流标三次然后呢又延宕四年合三本来是去年要绝标今年也已经绝标也要今年所以到底这个干事组的设施都往后拖延那请问何安慧你的监督的机制到底在哪里我们钱会给啊但是你一定要有所作为啊"},{"start":2854.916,"end":2880.645,"text":"跟委員說明一下目前核一的乾式儲存我們已經核發運轉執照所以它正在運轉核二部分我們在3月6號已經同意它試運轉試運轉完以後它遇到試運轉結果它就會來跟我們申請運轉執照我們的審查時間大概需要三個月三個月後我們就會"},{"start":2880.985,"end":2903.39,"text":"這個月號現在目前為止是五月所以我們期望在新的會期九月的時候可以看得到因為我們要給預算嘛我當然要拿出你們的這個績效出來嘛一直不斷的流標而且更不要講下面一個更令人意外的部分這個室內的儲存這個儲存的招標疑似某一些的壓力然後呢決定要給日系的NAC團隊有這件事嗎"},{"start":2904.686,"end":2932.702,"text":"跟委員說明NAC是美國公司目前核二廠的乾式室外乾儲就是NAC公司得票是正在那個試運轉的那為什麼有特別的報導這是我們引述媒體的報導我想因為台電目前沒有做出一個澄清所以我們有必要在質詢台上來問個清楚那這樣子的一個乾式儲存的這個系統目前看起來是沒有辦法裝載這個招標當中所有的規範所以說呢他們認為是違反這個招標的文件的要求那"},{"start":2933.422,"end":2953.969,"text":"你们核安会目前掌握的状况是如何而且我也知道最后还是要通过核安会的这个最后的审查但是我们不希望全部都完成之后然后呢核安会说告诉我这不符合规定我们不需要发生这样的状况所以现在就要预警来告知你们这个时候有办法预先了解整个招标过程然后这个厂商是不是符合规定有办法做到这一点吗"},{"start":2954.389,"end":2978.672,"text":"可以跟委員說明NAC公司的產品經過美國核管會的審定在美國有四家廠商四家電力公司你把這些資料給我因為就我們的理解裡面它所過去承載的這個經歷履歷各方面來說能夠承載出這樣子一個所謂的乾除的這樣一個標準目前來說顯然是跟我們的認知有些落差所以我要求核安會把你所"},{"start":2979.252,"end":3007.902,"text":"知道部分送一份报告给本席好不好这一件事非常的重要我们只希望积极而且在这个核电有可能再一次的重启的过程里面我们每一个细节我们不需要因为延大或是招标出现大家有所质疑的地方而让整个的流程因此而受到很大的影响这是我们最终的目标可以啊把这个目标还有它的里面的这个细节全部给本席一份还有呢接下来我还是要问到这个预算了核电重启的这个目前为止来说的话已经送交了再预算计划吗没错吧诸位"},{"start":3009.278,"end":3020.771,"text":"好那如果是送再运转的预算一样吗你们第二这个核二的重启计划跟审查小组的成员跟核三是同一批人吗核二核三是同一批人审查的人员是一样吗"},{"start":3022.657,"end":3038.912,"text":"因為核二還沒提出來所以我們會另外再規劃為什麼我要提出來因為你們現在人力完全不足嘛這點你們都不需要承認嘛我們來看看你看在你們這個目前來說的話未來五年內持有遲走的人員即臨退休而且很多的運轉高級反應器運轉的人數年體就只剩下20個人"},{"start":3041.334,"end":3069.515,"text":"低于标准规范的21然后我更要讲说2026的时候你们只剩下17而且呢这三合三的小组成员除了现有的河安会专业人力之外你们外部增加19个人当中外部单家里面呢就有7人是河安会及国务院会员原来的退休人物还包括你们的记证处长等等之类的所以我就说嘛长期我们没有培养河安人才目前为止就面临了我们中间人力很大的不足嘛那你们有任何的问题我们就往下面去看嘛"},{"start":3069.935,"end":3092.031,"text":"你们的技术人员还有包括你们研究人员跟你们学习预算跟实际游乐都有很大的部分永远补不足而且越来越严重哎你看然后呢国研院情况更加严峻113年改进之后呢技术人员缺了达到77人往后几乎每年都有50人没有补满的所以到41到我们今年4月底的时候有49名人补满"},{"start":3092.952,"end":3117.839,"text":"这就是我们长期我一直不断的强调过去我们有的包括组委还有在场非常多人的嘛对不对都是我们河工非常优秀的人才长期因为这样的delay即使你再重启我们的人力还是不足目前这样所看到的就是如此嘛不是吗完全没有钱战绩来归还我们河岸的人才这个问题你怎么解决我们愿意给大家钱啊可是你每次都补不足啊这怎么办这怎么办这是个事实吧"},{"start":3123.604,"end":3133.011,"text":"這個斷財斷成了這麼嚴重我們又不但用資深資深沒有問題但是新進的人員在哪裡呢報告委員我們經過七四從112年經過七四的召集我們人員一直穩定維持在900個人那問題是為什麼那我難道我的資料是錯誤的嗎"},{"start":3139.996,"end":3162.043,"text":"因為這個有些是原來專資人力我們原來有200你把所有的人力因為因為這個時間的關係你把所有的人力你真實的人力你若覺得這個資料是有問題但是人力不足這是個事實嗎完全補滿這是個事實吧現在我們還透過國防機構還有國外我們今年還是持續要補足五六十位"},{"start":3162.383,"end":3191.123,"text":"然后呢已经达到你刚出刚我们预算的预算的原额了吗还差60位是嘛才差60位嘛我们每一年都给你钱可是每次都没有所以这个问题我们要好好讨论我只是告诉大家合工的人才非常的重要但是长期过去10年15年造成这样的一个结果你现在要找到这个人而且说实在的资深的人都退不掉心经的人因为你还要再加上了这个所谓的给他再训练的时间这是我们人力最大的匮乏这是我们今天最大的一个问题耶"},{"start":3193.125,"end":3214.363,"text":"不是只有燃料棒的问题人力也是一个很大的问题我们等一下在审预算的时候就好好给本席一个真实你们真的觉得人力上的缺乏里面最重要的一个因素好不好谢谢让我补充一下我们对于人力补充方面我们河安会以及国务院我们请清华大学来给我们开始"},{"start":3215.223,"end":3234.882,"text":"硕士的学分班现在有四十几个人在进修这个学位这是我们补充人力的一个方法我们也鼓励清华大学多收一些学生也要争取很多研究经费等等我们尽量努力今年去年再开始硕士班然后来补足这个部分好 这就是我们现在"},{"start":3235.402,"end":3260.529,"text":"培养人才的一个目标非常的太短视了但是有总比没有好我还是要强调这是长期对人力培养完全没有前瞻完全缺乏的一个最重要的一个表现现在我们也将努力来填补这方面的空缺谢谢委员的指教好 谢谢柯之恩委员的质询请主委回座接下来有请陈培余委员进行询答"},{"start":3265.95,"end":3290.413,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請河岸會主委 謝謝好 請河岸會主委好 主委您好 早安上一次在這裡對話的時候其實我也是問關於這個說明會但是當時在問的時候呢 說明會還沒有舉辦那我們現在看到4月28號河岸會已經在屏東縣恆春政工所辦的這個說明會"},{"start":3291.914,"end":3306.663,"text":"當時在辦這個說明會之前我其實給了河安會幾個建議跟提醒拜託河安會一定要積極的跟地方的居民溝通我們來看一下這個說明會現在現場反映出一些狀況我不確定主委你有沒有掌握到現場鄉親的一些反應第一個"},{"start":3308.665,"end":3326.12,"text":"現場說呢在說明會的前12天左右才收到公文而在地的很多居民不是這個公文的收受對象甚至呢大家說你只有跟這個相公所說跟政公所說其實一般關心這些議題的人不見得會知道"},{"start":3326.761,"end":3354.762,"text":"那我知道河南會你們會說有啊我們有上網公告上一次我就已經提醒了這個數位落差絕對是一個很大的溝通障礙我們必須要透過更多一般居民所熟悉的溝通系統的管道想盡辦法讓他們知道但很可惜我們在活動當天甚至在後續的新聞報導上其實有非常多的地方居民表示不滿表示沒有被積極告知怎麼說呢還有一個事情是這樣說他們說甚至呢"},{"start":3355.816,"end":3382.59,"text":"有一個居民他就願意具體的說他叫什麼名字他說呢甚至在河安會的重啟案的委員會當中有64個委員可是這64個委員居然沒有一個是當地的居民或者是公民團體代表也就是相關的公民團體也好在地的居民居然連參與的機會都沒有而他們認為在這樣的重啟程序下所辦的地方說明會會不會流於形式只是河安會辦完"},{"start":3383.73,"end":3403.519,"text":"就好了那甚至會說呢第二個問題就是我知道河南會你們有在會議之前在網路上邀請大家提出對相關事情的問題收集了意見可是這些意見跟問題的說明也沒有在當天的說明會上給予回覆或者是統一說明"},{"start":3403.959,"end":3417.975,"text":"那後續我們要怎麼看到你們針對這些網路上提供出來的意見或者是問題給予一些說明跟回答目前大家還是抱持著疑惑光是這樣就兩件事情了還有再來就是如果相關的重啟程序的會議"},{"start":3419.016,"end":3436.354,"text":"核安会在预算说明的时候有来我们办公室说你们跟我们说总共会有四场我来确定一下一个是再运转这个会议会有一场后续快要审查完会再有一场然后呢相关的自主安全会再有一场然后自主安全快审完会有一场总共只有四场"},{"start":3437.014,"end":3455.635,"text":"但是如果第一場辦完之後地方給予的回饋是這樣是不是可以請核安會說明一下你們後續會再如何調整一如何更加積極的跟地方的鄉親溝通在會議之前要確保所有關心的人都能夠收到訊息他要不要去是他的事情時間如何安排第二個"},{"start":3456.095,"end":3479.747,"text":"我之前就提醒過你們如果我們辦的會議時間是上班時間對於很多當地人來說其實非常非常的不友善到底我們還可以用哪些管道跟方法讓更多人參與再來這個重啟案裡面的委員會如何有鄉親或者是公民團體的代表還有後續的機制如何更加公開透明除了這四場之外你們還有什麼規劃可不可以請主委或是相關幕僚做一下說明"},{"start":3481.151,"end":3505.251,"text":"跟委員說明有關於4月28號所辦理的地方說明會那我們已經有收集到民眾所關心的議題那我們經過會診之後也會請相關單位包括會裡面的各相關單位以及外部的單位來提供回應說明經過會診之後我們會把這些議題跟答覆公布在會裡面的網站"},{"start":3505.951,"end":3526.191,"text":"那另外有關於其他民眾沒有收到相關訊息或關心民眾的組織那這部分我們會收集這次的相關資訊然後在下一次辦地方說明會的時候我們再主動發函邀請他們來出席下一次的地方說明會"},{"start":3527.165,"end":3553.627,"text":"那至於那個地方說明會辦的這四場我們會逐一去檢視看有沒有需要經濟的地方那事實上戰運轉計劃事實上涉及到店長整個的專業部分確實要讓民眾第一時間很快速了解確實可能比較辛苦或有他的難度那我們也會思考看看有沒有可以經濟的地方以上說明"},{"start":3555.68,"end":3573.959,"text":"我聽懂你的說明了可是我覺得剛剛您的說法有些危險身為民意代表我要說確實河岸有非常高度的專業我們當然尊重所有的專家學者可是不要忘了這些地方鄉親居民的聲音也很重要他們所有的擔心他們所有的疑惑如果可以透過適當的說明跟轉譯"},{"start":3576.642,"end":3601.244,"text":"我認為是可以促進更好的溝通而轉譯這件事情如果不在你們政策思維裡頭如果高度抱持著某一種程度的專家的傲慢進到現場我認為只會造成更大的衝突跟對立所以我認為在這個前提底下如何讓這個說明會不管是次數變得更好然後轉譯的工作做得更好甚至在事前收集意見的動作做得更好"},{"start":3601.724,"end":3630.179,"text":"我認為剛剛您的回答其實都還有再更多可以精進的空間我不知道你怎麼看是 那就我們後續會來整體來思維看看有沒有可以精進的地方那至於說明會的主題各方面我們也會再想看看用淺顯易懂的方式讓民眾可以在第一時間可以了解說整個管制跟台電公司的作為那以上說"},{"start":3631.311,"end":3649.614,"text":"好 但是因為今天時間有限我尊重主席時間的安排但我會說轉譯這件事情事先收集的這個事情還有在當場溝通的誠意跟程序也很重要因為說明會真的不能只是流於心事對於和安會也好對於台電公司也好大家都希望可以把"},{"start":3649.994,"end":3679.614,"text":"第一线的现场的声音带回去,然后专家学者做出转移,跟做出回应,我认为这才是后续,如果真的要重启,我说的是如果真的要重启,我们必须要在这个阶段,把很多跟民意沟通的工作做好,而不要真的假设到了重启的那一刻,我们还要面对更大的社会冲突,跟社会意见的讨论,好不好,拜托你们,谢谢,谢谢主席,好,谢谢陈培韵委员的咨询,也请主委回座,"},{"start":3680.714,"end":3699.207,"text":"下一位 我們有請葛如君委員進行詢答好 謝謝主席有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":3710.089,"end":3731.887,"text":"陳主委好 賴清德總統已經說了因為AI的發展他感謝立法院通過這個AI基本法然後要這個思考核電的重啟基本上也是支持的那我們這個台北市的市長候選人沈博洋委員也一直擔心台北市或者其他的地方電不夠用"},{"start":3733.689,"end":3757.463,"text":"賴總統一直提到的新式核能本席過去一直跟您提到SMR、MMR的中長程的計畫那當時預計四年花費十億我一直喊說不夠為什麼?因為你說要花台北一棟豪宅的錢來做全中華民國未來十年甚至二十年、五十年的人員的準備這太荒謬了"},{"start":3758.664,"end":3774.796,"text":"但是據本席了解啊現在這個四年十億竟然還被國客會打槍砍到剩下4.8億一年只剩1.2億啊這個逃租引援啊這個一個廁所可能都還不夠啊這個請問這是確定的嗎報告委員我們這兩天"},{"start":3783.021,"end":3811.82,"text":"才接到國科會最近的會議紀錄前兩個禮拜主委帶隊到跟吳政委報告完以後他同意我們今年總預算四年維持十億但是今年今年只有一點而已還是第一年還是照原來的就是四點八一除以四一點而已其他不足的後面三年再補齊謝謝主委長期對這個議題的關心那我想國科會在會議紀錄已正式有回應"},{"start":3813.822,"end":3835.758,"text":"申请计划书这两天会送到国科会等核定以后大概就确定恢复到10亿的预算谢谢委员我想没有能源安全就没有国家安全那没有能源也不会有半导体不会有AI我想这个国科会主委应该是非常了解的我们当然也是先感谢我们国会无主委没有砍但是当然了第一"},{"start":3836.098,"end":3854.532,"text":"第一年還是維持一點惡意這一點我們當然還是有點意見為什麼因為時間真的很重要你說一年沒有辦法增加那一年合工的人才可能就沒有辦法增加我們新式核能的研發又再延宕一年這一年對於AI來講的發展可能是一整個世紀"},{"start":3855.413,"end":3884.522,"text":"那我想賴清德總統一邊說新式核能結果國科會對新式核能沒有更加加倍的增加不是說第一年兩倍那這一點我覺得還是有點可惜那總而言之這個計畫我們也希望核安會國科會我們更多的部會一起來支持啦畢竟能源真的是我們的基準我們也希望核工的人才我們相關的研發跟應用可以更快的加速以確保我們在AI在產業上面的競爭力"},{"start":3885.402,"end":3901.54,"text":"那另外上週有傳出河山的甘蜀廠招標爭議的事件主委應該知道嘛剛剛也有委員有問到嘛那我想這個請問主委台電在招標的時候是誰來確保這些申請廠商有沒有符合河安會的標準"},{"start":3903.795,"end":3920.611,"text":"是不是就是台電自己找嘛對不對是要先合乎標準的標準是你們提供的嘛那但是誰在執行這些標準的查核誰來跟委員說明那對於甘氏處這邊我們定有安全檢查導致"},{"start":3922.293,"end":3950.175,"text":"那這一部分他相關的標準一定導責誰來執行誰來確保申請的長照符合標準在招標規範的時候他就會將我們的安全導責的要求納入對嘛好那請問對台電來講他好好的招標他確保安全這當然是他的道德所在但是這是他的利益所在嗎這是他的利益所在嗎"},{"start":3954.258,"end":3964.064,"text":"台電公司有義務要執行這個計畫所以我們就是相信台電公司那請問台電公司是國營的還是民營的國營企業"},{"start":3965.735,"end":3982.558,"text":"所以我們過去都還記得有快篩小吃店、超市進口蛋、室內裝修炸藥的案子我們不是在講說這些公司都怎麼樣而是說何人的東西事關民眾安全和人員的需求"},{"start":3983.615,"end":4004.774,"text":"那你說台電自行處理那核安會只有一個倒折那假設未來台電說就給這一家我們說按照我們的安全的評估就給這一家結果核安會來判斷有疑慮根據你們的倒折你們有疑慮是不是就要重新招標"},{"start":4006.357,"end":4023.215,"text":"是不是有這個可能如果你們後來他送過來發現他自己說根據他的義務嘛這你剛剛講的嘛對不對根據他的義務嘛結果他的義務執行出來的結果你們覺得不夠安全因為你們一定以安全為優先嘛對不對那假設你們覺得有疑慮是不是就要重新招標"},{"start":4023.735,"end":4047.658,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們導資人裡面有要求他要採用國際已經成熟的產品很好 如果他沒有符合呢他沒有符合 其實他就 他送案 送件給我們的時候他就不會 我們就會給他打回票你們是不是就會說不行嘛我現在就問你 他是不是要重新招標嘛 對不對那假設他發生這件事 你們可以罰他錢嗎"},{"start":4049.808,"end":4059.781,"text":"你們可以行政懲處他嗎我說河岸會可不可以處罰他不行嘛我想請問所以你們的倒則他依據什麼條件一定要遵守"},{"start":4060.831,"end":4085.945,"text":"因為他日後要跟我們申請建造執照裡面安全文件報告裡面就要附這個所以就是兩個嘛一個就是義務嘛你剛剛講的嘛第二個如果沒有符合的話送過來你們可能會把它reject嘛對不對那請問reject以後這整件事情是不是就延宕了是那您覺得過去台電在核電重啟在核能上是支持的嗎"},{"start":4087.486,"end":4108.123,"text":"跟委員報告其實在甘氏署這件事情是我們每個月都跟台電開溝通管制會議所以我們有掌握到台電公司它在招標的時候有符合這樣的狀況我想啦其實我一直在講的其實就是說賴清德總統要心事核能核電也要重啟我們相應的整個"},{"start":4109.384,"end":4126.433,"text":"生態系都要準備好嘛 對不對那這個未來可能會造成人員政策的轉換的延宕的情況我們都要先預先處理嘛因為現在河岸會的倒折有沒有強制力我就問有沒有強制力"},{"start":4127.795,"end":4141.286,"text":"導者其實導者有沒有強制力是沒有強制力但是他會轉化成我們安全審查的一個要求那如果他一直不遵守你一直給他打回去他又再不遵守你一直打回去我們是不是可以搞一百年"},{"start":4142.977,"end":4164.799,"text":"台電公司從來沒有應該是沒有做過違反我們倒車你說台電公司應該很棒嘛他有義務嘛對不對好那我問法規上說可以分階段送繩對不對他的自主安檢計畫對不對法規上所以分階段送繩台電不送你們有沒有辦法台電不送你們有沒有辦法"},{"start":4165.748,"end":4184.344,"text":"有沒有辦法根據禱則台電如果不送分階段送什麼他一直不送嘛你們根據禱則你們有沒有辦法對他有沒有辦法有沒有強制力沒有可是我們會了解說過程中發生什麼問題對嘛你看即便你們禱則裡面有寫其實啊只寫了建議兩個字啦"},{"start":4185.445,"end":4207.044,"text":"所以主委我想問嘛剛剛他講說義務台電有義務台電以前都不會怎麼樣我對台電沒有意見喔但我們就是要看規則來做嘛我們要往最壞的方向做準備法律有不完備的地方我們要準備好不然免得我們不要台灣時間到了哇真的沒電了到現在民進黨委員都在喊沒電啊我們"},{"start":4207.785,"end":4225.697,"text":"也很緊張啊全民都緊張所以河山廠的自主安檢計畫理論上有五份有五份這個你們只寫建議啦那你們這個有五份那請問有送任何一份來了嗎剛剛說台電又有義務而且他又很負責"},{"start":4228.182,"end":4240.537,"text":"請問,自主安全計畫有五份,有送任何一份來了嗎?呃,沒有,可是跟委員報告,這五份是法規規定的,所以一定要送的。那他不送會怎麼樣?不送,核安會能不能拿他怎樣啊?"},{"start":4242.966,"end":4263.752,"text":"目前確實沒有 因為它是要提交出來的所以這個部分 我想大家 我們都愛台電我們也愛和安會 我們也愛我們中華民國這個部分 事關民眾安全和國家人員的需求我們剛剛這一段對話 其實我就是希望請主委回去研議一下"},{"start":4264.352,"end":4284.65,"text":"看怎麼樣去提高核安會監督的能量不然我們監督你你們就說我們只有倒折我們沒有強制力那這樣我們怎麼監督呢對不對那我們也沒辦法就是真的派一個委員坐在台電裡面也不合理嘛所以例如訂定相關的執法"},{"start":4285.35,"end":4299.409,"text":"或者不要只是倒折嘛或者我們之前提過的升級可不可以一個月內給本席一個回覆可以嗎主委這個問題是您的層級了可以的好 謝謝然後另外最後本席再關心一下再運轉的審查計畫"},{"start":4300.911,"end":4328.693,"text":"目前核安會也感謝你們認真負責也守法提出第一次的審查意見正待台電公司答覆說明那請問主委對於台電的答覆有沒有相關時程因為我們一直講嘛那他如果一直你說該送的分階段送他不送你沒有強制力已經送進來的部分如果你回覆了他又不額外的處理就算你們的審查意見給他了他又不回覆這審查流程是不是就會卡住"},{"start":4329.592,"end":4338.005,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司在上個禮拜五已經提出第一次的答覆說明哎呀太好了那這個今天的報告有提到嗎"},{"start":4339.631,"end":4359.654,"text":"因為是上禮拜五下班才提交出來的我想這個相關的互動要更清楚透明的讓國人了解禮拜五五六日意見已經過三天了我們現在在這裡我們還在用舊的資料請問今天我們這個業務報告的資料是今天送來的還是禮拜五送的"},{"start":4364.59,"end":4378.798,"text":"相關資訊要更新我們現在新式核能的採用還有能源每天每分鐘每秒鐘我們都在賽跑好不好所以這一點再拜託更新一下最後這個人才的部分這剛剛有委員也問到了"},{"start":4379.518,"end":4403.141,"text":"這個人才啊 這個現在有一點 有一些缺漏啦那118年SR如果不足啊 考照狀況不理想你們之前就人員不夠 現在已經低於21人了嘛我們剛剛都看到了對不對 人才需求24人的有28但是21人你們預計可能會降到17你們說要用其他考照的方式來替代 替代的方案"},{"start":4404.002,"end":4425.554,"text":"台電現在的替代方案哪些是核安會可以接受的除了退休的經理再把它找回來還有哪些人員可以替代有沒有一些標準啊我剛剛我有聽到說其實我們一直在講核工人才國研院很棒開始在討論外國人才專業人才來台灣這部分主委我們還有哪些替代的方式有沒有一個標準"},{"start":4428.152,"end":4451.663,"text":"我能不能跟委員先說明一下這個是值班人員是台電公司又正式員工那退休人員是協助當一些訓練的講師這部分那這部分人員的人數啊訓練會裡面在法規裡面已經規範了所以要求台電公司在再運整計畫要明確去規範這些人什麼什麼時候要去遞補跟訓練要把這些人在"},{"start":4455.562,"end":4468.574,"text":"機組繼續運轉的時候 能源要符合法規的要求好 我想這個核安 核工的議題還有核能 還有核電台灣電力充足 能源安全的問題全國民眾都很關心 不分黨派"},{"start":4469.695,"end":4493.748,"text":"那我們不能只相信台電的背書我們也 核安會也不做台電的背書機關台電有什麼地方做得不夠好 要加強請核安會這裡一定要第一時間要告知大眾跟台電之間的溝通也要清楚透明不要這種禮拜五收到的文件我們禮拜一在這裡質詢我們沒有得到資料 好不好相關的速度要夠快 要透明不要刺行到最後一個階段了"},{"start":4494.468,"end":4517.769,"text":"才來介入有這種所謂的delay這種時程的不對齊我們套一句沈伯陽委員講時間要對齊我們核能才能夠安全我們的文化才能夠發展國家的經濟才能夠建設整個全球的局勢才能穩定好不好所以我想這個核安會的重要性就這麼的重要"},{"start":4518.029,"end":4534.733,"text":"好不好那最後出事的民眾不要把他們算到你們頭上那剛剛這個主委答應要研議的再麻煩好不好謝謝好謝謝葛如君委員的質詢請主委回座下一位我們邀請陳伍佩奕委員進行詢答謝謝主席我請何安慧主委請何安慧主委"},{"start":4553.011,"end":4577.625,"text":"主委好 上個禮拜五月十七號發生一件很嚴重的國際事件就是我們阿拉伯聯合大公國的巴拉卡核電廠遭到了無人機襲擊在五月十七號的上午那這個無人機的攻擊造成什麼結果它導致這一座核電廠的發電機起火這個事件國際上包括俄羅斯包括美國都來去譴責"},{"start":4578.646,"end":4605.4,"text":"因為它在起源關聯就是因為跟中東衝突有關的這個攻擊事件那麼無人機攻擊核電廠它造成的後果有可能非常的嚴重那這起案件還好是沒有這個傷亡的報告國際原子能總署對這個案件他特別向聯合國提出了聲明在這個聲明當中我們看到幾個警示跟提醒第一個他是說這個案件它是一座運作中的核電廠"},{"start":4606.661,"end":4634.981,"text":"那它的反應爐儲存的有數千公斤的核燃料那裡面也包括沒使用過跟使用過的倘若被攻擊直接命中的話它可能會導致大量的放射線物質釋放到環境當中但是就算它不是直接命中它如果是攻擊到它的供電線路例如說發電機造成供電的斷電的話它有可能會因為核電廠無法運作"},{"start":4635.942,"end":4657.642,"text":"沒有辦法冷卻所以會造成他的這個反應爐的這個核心可能會有融毀這樣的風險那麼這個國際智能總署還說了他說如果最壞的情況下會需要來疏散跟安置居民這個範圍可能是數公里甚至是數百公里的範圍之內都要來安置跟疏散"},{"start":4658.283,"end":4682.171,"text":"那我們台灣核安會當然是主管是我們核能安全我們核安會針對核電廠的這個如果是面對無人機的這種恐攻我們是不是也有這個保安防恐的演練的計畫呢是的目前這個計畫是怎麼樣來進行例如說一年做幾次然後包含哪些項目有沒有書算跟安置計畫等等能不能說明請"},{"start":4684.927,"end":4704.265,"text":"跟委員說明一下針對核電廠它每年都會做就是保安的反恐點每年一次每年都有每一座核電廠都會做每一座都有那它有兵棋推演跟實兵的演練那目前無人機的這種就是應對都已經納在裡面那電廠目前的就是核子保"},{"start":4704.845,"end":4725.461,"text":"核子保安的計畫也都有把遇到這樣的事情的一個應變作業他有去盤點他可能遭遇的狀況然後可能的風險以及他的應對措施那都有透過就是歷年來的研習去做一個精進這樣那至於就是委員剛剛關心的如果發生核子事故之後場外民眾的這個疏散那因為電廠廠內他也有"},{"start":4729.023,"end":4755.738,"text":"緊急應變計劃那我們場外就跟地方政府也有一起合作做緊急應變的一個計劃跟演練所以每年的河岸演習都會做相關的一個場外民眾的防護行動演練是 這個非常重要喔那麼剛剛有講到說糖落最嚴重的情況要疏散跟安置的話在你們的演練計劃當中如果以河一 河二場來說因為這裡台北太近了 就在新北我們是安置到哪裡 疏散到哪邊"},{"start":4756.999,"end":4771.075,"text":"有沒有相關的計畫大概可以就是安置多少人數以河一河二來說因為新北市跟基隆市他們都有他們的核子事故區域民眾防護計畫那所以針對就是河一峽內的居民跟就是"},{"start":4771.596,"end":4801.016,"text":"新北市就是緊急應變計劃區內的居民跟基隆市的他們都有對應的一個疏散安置的地點那像新北市他通常都會在16公里外就是距離核電廠16公里外的區域那新北市他會目前的因為他會分離就是不同的離別他有對應到他先規劃一個疏散地點那包括疏散過程中的那個路線以新北來說我們之前的演練我們疏散的人數是估計多少的人數"},{"start":4802.396,"end":4818.786,"text":"過去新北的演練人數嘛因為整體的那個演練人數之前有幾千人但是可能不是全部都是疏散作業他會看他的就是因為以這個國際事件來講就是幾千人我想一定是不夠的那這個沒有關係能不能夠這個諮詢會後"},{"start":4821.588,"end":4839.161,"text":"來去提供我們這更細部的資料那未來我們也希望這相關的這些演練有一些民眾必須要知道的資訊也可以要來去公開因為這核能安全民眾非常的關心那請核安會在這個部分一定要去把它做好那同時我也想提醒因為今天就在今天我們裁會會正在審我們軍購的預算其實呢這個國防安全也就關係了我們的核能安全"},{"start":4845.666,"end":4855.328,"text":"一個人這個事件來講我們一定要有這個我們國防的能力所以這個也要拜託我們立法院的同仁關心核案大家要一起來支持那最後因為還有一點時間我想要請教在這個我們有一個這個核安會的風險評估這個總表行政院要求我們來做的那我裡面有看到的是你們有提到說有一個風險你們把它列為風險項目跟風險的情境"},{"start":4870.771,"end":4882.014,"text":"就是說你們之前的有一個預算的項目就是遭到我們立法院的刪除有一個研究計畫是關於這個核能減災的這個研究計畫你們把它列為說因為這個之前預算遭到立法院的刪除所以它成為你們的扣管風險表裡面的這個風險項目跟風險情境之一能不能說明這是什麼樣的計畫那我們預算收到的什麼樣的這個刪減"},{"start":4902.379,"end":4929.886,"text":"我想這幾個第一個是有關於我們柴油發電機洩漏的事件這裡已經根據風險管控第一個建立標準作業流程我沒有問你那個桃園的那個事件我問你那個最後就是你剛講的這個核能減災的研究計畫預算刪除這一個案說明這一案就好了在你那個風險管控的總表當中"},{"start":4932.477,"end":4955.544,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個風險管控就是說我們預想最壞的情況我們要有最好的因應所以包括任何可能的狀況我們都要去思考說會不會對這個計畫造成影響所以不管說三減計畫或者是計畫執行不利什麼這都是我們會設想它是我們這個計畫執行的風險對沒錯因為我想減災也是非常的重要那麼因為馬上也要這個審查預算了"},{"start":4958.925,"end":4980.43,"text":"所以我要拜託你們因為立法院不應該是河南安全的風險我們應該是要來河南安全支持的後盾才對拜託你們可以多加的跟我們委員來說明我們希望這個預算能夠在你們的充足然後可以執行的情況下來進行謝謝委員支持謝謝吳佩儀委員的質詢請主委回座下一位有請吳思瑤委員進行詢答"},{"start":5001.189,"end":5003.031,"text":"不好意思 有請主委請主委備詢"},{"start":5011.001,"end":5038.84,"text":"好 大家辛苦了我今天的质询会聚焦在重启核电当中现在进行的再运转的计划我们核安会正在审查那我们核电厂的防御韧性是一个最新的课题最新的挑战有没有纳入我们的相关的安全检测呢好 这是我的命题下一页非核家园从去年5月17号到现在上路到今天是第373天"},{"start":5042.683,"end":5060.98,"text":"373天主委這是我查到今天早上的台電這個報表預估尖峰備載容量率今天是綠燈綠燈是什麼意思跟大家說明一下好嗎是供電充裕"},{"start":5063.416,"end":5087.636,"text":"充裕无余所以是高达23.54%的被转容量所以大家可以安心非核家园上路了台湾没有缺电这是每一天国人都可以公开透明去了解关心我们的被载容量所以我们要清楚的向社会来论述下一页"},{"start":5089.215,"end":5113.44,"text":"那以日本福島核災之後的經驗在311地震的當下運轉中的核電廠當然暫時都暫停事後呢2015年日本重新的陸續重啟全面的核電廠的強化安全規格的審查他停下來之後要重新恢復運轉目前我收集到的數據是這樣通過審查恢復運轉的有15座"},{"start":5118.399,"end":5137.982,"text":"审查中的还有八座到现在都审查超过十年了因为安全的规格要升级能不能够达标持续在审查有八座那已经通过审查但是日本政府确定不运转的核电厂有三座主要来自于在地的地方政府或是民意的反对"},{"start":5139.161,"end":5155.794,"text":"那明确除异退场的核电厂高达24座主要当然是因为安全的因素或者是他恢复运转的经济成本的考量换言之三一地震之后日本的核电的占比"},{"start":5156.394,"end":5168.78,"text":"从2010年的25%到现在2025年10年后大概是10%这是数据告诉我们的我要应用在今天的质询就是要告诉我们和安会"},{"start":5169.972,"end":5198.645,"text":"省好省满安全不能打折这整个在运转的计划不是流于形式更不能够虚硬故事下一页所以核安会的工作非常的重要重启核电是道足且长的不管是政策决定的三大原则核安是不是无余核废是不是有解社会有没有共识这些都跟核安会至关重要你们的业务"},{"start":5199.853,"end":5219.382,"text":"所以说我们在审查的标的当然包括厨艺的核电厂老化的状况是不是能够再运转如果可以再运转可以再展延使用几年呢有没有符合经济效益还有进行地震的危害分析断层带会不会影响到核电的再重启"},{"start":5220.482,"end":5246.928,"text":"這是日本在做台灣也在做的事但是最新的我今天的主題就是我們的再運轉計畫有沒有因應國際最新的地緣政治的因素納入相關戰爭可能引起的防禦任性的評估剛剛前一位委員在質詢他是關心在如果被戰爭影響了那我們的安置疏散"},{"start":5248.67,"end":5260.089,"text":"應變有沒有做好整個配套而我要進入的主題是整個在運轉計畫裡頭的戰爭風險的評估我們有沒有納入非常重要的指標來請先簡單回答"},{"start":5263.656,"end":5288.291,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前針對就是戰爭的這個風險台電公司他已經有核電廠面臨軍事威脅下確保核安的準備跟應變計畫那這個計畫不是就是因為再運轉才有的而是在前面平常就有對在之前就有在之前還是處處理的階段其實就已經有了我要提醒的是什麼夏業當然大家都在關心伊朗對阿聯跟美國的"},{"start":5289.372,"end":5306.591,"text":"他瞄準核電廠無人機襲擊的這個事件剛剛其他委員也在關心這確實是國際發生的事件要帶給我們的省思但我認為你們要嚴格去檢視的不是台電本來就有這一套"},{"start":5307.051,"end":5320.232,"text":"而是现在如果重启的核电厂要再重启的时候有没有去提升相关防御韧性的规格就例如最新的无人机的袭击我们怎么来因应跟防范下一页"},{"start":5321.448,"end":5344.952,"text":"而不只剛剛說的伊朗最新的戰士核電廠成了被攻擊鎖定的工具之外即使早在烏俄戰爭烏克蘭的扎波羅熱核電廠就被俄羅斯軍隊控制全面中斷運作到現在歷經多次的砲擊以及無人機的襲擊它不只是成為直接攻擊的target"},{"start":5345.532,"end":5366.997,"text":"它更可以因此來造成經濟運轉的恐慌電力供應的恐慌具有強大的心理震懾的這一個重要的戰爭的操作目標更可能讓雙方將核能安全或能源安全可以作為外交的博弈跟輿論戰的焦點"},{"start":5369.278,"end":5379.498,"text":"所以說我不知道我還沒有看到台電再運轉計畫他其實也相對的專業我也不一定能夠完全的理解但是我要提醒的是下一頁下一頁"},{"start":5381.161,"end":5408.684,"text":"这是国际的期刊跟我们的学者的研究核电厂对于炮火攻击的威胁可能引发大规模放射性的污染电力如果中断的风险裸露了燃料棒炉心毁损释放发射性物质怎么办当然还包括燃料冷却池的风险不管是使用中或者是没有使用中的这些燃料棒它都有相当高的风险所以最后下一页"},{"start":5409.895,"end":5434.59,"text":"我建議你們這是核安會自己要做的事不只是因應核電的重啟其實核電廠的被地緣政治在戰事引起的風險不是只有重啟運轉的核電廠其實原本的核設施包括我們的廢棄物的儲存處都會受到戰爭的風險我要求你們三件事第一個"},{"start":5436.745,"end":5461.075,"text":"暫時的核設施的安全治理不是只有核安會能做到跨部會國防經濟能源部門都要整合第二件事情因應地緣政治國際多邊的安全合作就是強化跟IAEA國際原子能總署的即時通報的程序第三個跟上國際我們的核設施的安全韌性都要升級我要再次強調不是只針對台電送出的"},{"start":5461.815,"end":5476.98,"text":"要除役的核電廠能不能夠重啟的這一個再運轉的計畫安全評估而是所有台灣現存的核設施即便除役他都隱藏著可能因應地緣政治戰爭的風險這是我今天拋出來的最後一個"},{"start":5478.254,"end":5496.35,"text":"美国政府美国的共和党的参议员也提出一个具体的法案我想你们也可以提供专家的意见给立法院也就是美国4月30号最新的共和党参议员这个Tom Cotton他所提的关键基础设施空域防卫法"},{"start":5497.335,"end":5519.382,"text":"因為如果關鍵基礎設施沒有合法的權力的授權那對於無人機的能不能夠主動去啟動防禦第二個為關鍵基礎設施來設置必要的撥款的計畫用於購買反制無人機的一些新進的技術跟設備"},{"start":5520.842,"end":5542.64,"text":"那我们用国际的经验让我们想想现在其实是一个好的时机在运转计划送出来厨艺的核电厂能不能够重启还有过恩观赞恩奖但是对于台湾所有现存的核设施的强化无人机的袭击以及防御的功能乃至于刚刚吴佩玉委员所提到的"},{"start":5543.26,"end":5560.242,"text":"所有的假設受到戰爭的波及安置疏散應變這是整套全方位的配套都要細緻主委是不是say yes可以往這三方面我的建議來做更多專業上的處理這很好建議謝謝委員"},{"start":5561.684,"end":5584.03,"text":"那在台電審查它的再運轉計畫的時候也要強化對於戰爭戰事風險防禦任性的這個指標好嗎這個你們也會強化這方面的作為好OK好謝謝謝謝吳思瑤委員的質詢請主委回座下一位我們有請郭育晴委員進行詢答"},{"start":5592.469,"end":5594.021,"text":"好謝謝主席有請主委請主委"},{"start":5603.649,"end":5625.482,"text":"主委早安我想今天我們聚焦三個問題第一個問題我想要問的是重啟河山的風險溝通跟河岸會角色的定位第二個問題我想要問的是河山場如果碰到了河災的撤離安全的一個整備的狀況再來第三就是我們的輻射防護學習網"},{"start":5627.003,"end":5648.151,"text":"是不是只停留在形式上的建制是三大問題我們來看一下今天的時間首先先講到第一個問題我想這個核三重啟我想核安會不能只是一個技術審查者他應該更是一個社會信任的一個把關者我知道這個4月28號我們有做地方的說明會"},{"start":5648.951,"end":5675.366,"text":"那地方的居民反應有很多的所謂的這個核心上的一個問題那麼包含就是我們的恆春活動斷層的一個風險那再來就是我們的核廢料的長期儲存的一個安全再來就是在運轉之後的監測跟風險的一個管理那既然民間有這麼多的一個聲音但是呢那天大部分的民眾感受到是我們都在談所謂的在運轉以及地方回饋的一些問題那麼"},{"start":5676.647,"end":5690.402,"text":"如果是讓核三在運轉的這個議題上要如何讓民眾相信我們的核安會不是只有站在推動的立場而是要真正站在所謂的監管跟風險把關的一個位置那麼目前"},{"start":5691.448,"end":5720.607,"text":"我們看到很多的資訊公開的方式是幾百頁的一個技術的報告但我就要問一般的居民真的看得懂嗎是不是能夠有更白話的一個轉譯還有重點的摘要另外是圖像式的一個說明這是我的建議那即使是我們的資訊公開了民眾也未必能夠真正的理解所以我剛剛在講這個程序雖然有完成但是不代表我們跟社會"},{"start":5721.628,"end":5744.139,"text":"有共識或者是我們的社區的居民他有所謂的這個參與感這是兩件事情喔那再來我真的建議橫安會除了這個技術的完整的一個資訊同時也應該要提供就像我剛剛講的白話文一點點的這個風險的說明再來重點的摘要再來圖像化的一個資料還有一定要讓"},{"start":5745.339,"end":5774.515,"text":"所謂的在地的居民去表達所謂的FAQ這樣子的一個這個我們去草擬這樣子的一個FAQ這樣子的一個順序那我想能夠降低理解的門檻才能夠得到所謂的資訊的一個平權這是第一個問題第二個那未來在審查相關的一個溝通的機制我們是不是可以更實質的納入當地居民還有公民團體還有利害關係人的參與尤其是針對我剛剛提到了"},{"start":5775.015,"end":5786.672,"text":"恆春活動的一個斷層最新的評估還有高低放射性的核廢料的風險再來再運轉的安全監測這是不是可以更加的聚焦好請教"},{"start":5788.635,"end":5812.327,"text":"謝謝委員的建議非常好我們會繼續滾動至檢視回應所以我剛剛所給的建議那我相信這個核安會應該是可以再多做一些準備而不是要居民去看那一整份幾百頁然後都是一些所謂的比較專業性的一些"},{"start":5812.867,"end":5833.824,"text":"这样子的一个问题我想这个可能对居民来讲理解上会有一些难度我们其实要用更白话更图像式的方式让大家更容易了解好那今天因为时间关系第二题我直接跳了那我想这个核三厂的一个撤离跟安全的一个准备其实刚刚有几位委员特别的提到我们现在的疏散的量能真的足够吗"},{"start":5834.404,"end":5848.944,"text":"這是我要問的我想我們不是只有平常在運轉的安全我們要顧慮另外其實也包含一些所謂的極端事故之下人民能不能夠安全的一個撤離因為目前我們知道這個EPZ的涵蓋的一個範圍"},{"start":5850.146,"end":5871.32,"text":"有19個村裡對不對那超過13000戶的一個居民那因為恆春半島其實它的位處這個地理的一個條件它的交通比較特殊再來年外的道路也是比較有限那另外如果碰到所謂的觀光的旺季車流量都非常的龐大但是我們假設"},{"start":5872.501,"end":5880.813,"text":"如果地震 豪雨 道路中斷還有大量的觀光的車潮同時發生請問我們有撤離的計畫嗎那這個計畫足夠嗎這個部分可不可以請簡單說明"},{"start":5888.022,"end":5915.132,"text":"報告委員 針對就是發生何在這個緊急應變計畫針對委員關心的疏散撤離的部分因為我們會採分階段分時的方式進行那在一開始會先將遊客先勸離因為他們不是在地的民眾所以會請他們先離開那後面如果需要疏散的話也會先從弱勢民眾就是委員所關心的這些高風險族群因為他們需要疏散時間比較久所以會先從他們開始做優先的疏散"},{"start":5915.772,"end":5936.189,"text":"因為我們知道在整個所有的範圍之內就是那個一萬三千多戶的一個人家其實也有很多是獨居的長者再來很多行動不便者那另外還有一些比較需要特殊照顧的一些居民那我想如果我們有沒有納入所謂的極端複合式的一個災害做情境上的一個壓力測試這個部分我們做過了嗎"},{"start":5937.889,"end":5964.287,"text":"報告員在目前的兵棋就是每年的河岸演習的演練當中在兵棋隊員都會做相關的一個盤點跟測試那這些盤點是即時的名單的更新嗎對因為都會有地方政府因為我們的河岸演習是中央地方因為每年都會做河岸演習每年對另外如果沒有當年沒有做河岸演習的地方政府他也會做居民的一個疏散的"},{"start":5967.909,"end":5992.526,"text":"通訊的設備我想要提的就是說這方面的一個備援的一個機制啦那包含我剛剛講的即時的名冊的一個更新然後再來就是我們的通訊設備的一個更新再來還包含接送能力的調度我想我們在談的是當災害來臨時我們有沒有應變的韌性韌性這兩個字其實還蠻重要的提供給我們核安會作為參考第三個問題因為我們的這個輻射"},{"start":5996.668,"end":6024.594,"text":"防护学习网其实是不是只有建制而要让人民真的看得懂这个部分其实也攸关我们的一些所谓的在整个所有内容上的一个转型因为现在这个平台上有21门的专业的科目那6门的这个科普的课程还有互动游戏等等那我想呢辐射的议题本来就比较容易让民众焦虑因为如果我们的教材还是偏重在所谓的一些专业的一个术语把原来的内容"},{"start":6025.234,"end":6038.716,"text":"數位化那只是另外一種門檻啦雖然我們有設KPI這個KPI好像是7000人次這是我們的KPI但是如果是要讓一般民眾都能夠了解這個KPI的設置是不是有點低了請講"},{"start":6041.901,"end":6045.706,"text":"包括委員就是我們這個學習網其實有兩大的一個目的第一個就是要讓我們的輻射從業人員能夠做職場的再教育所以精準正確然後讓他有那個積分所以這個KPI值是否"},{"start":6057.62,"end":6082.972,"text":"否我們的專業人員嗎這邊還是一般的社會民眾我們目前的KPI是把它混合起來因為另外一個我們學習網還有一個就是要發揮分眾的這種科普教育所以目前我們確實我們的KPI是把它給密實起來所以後續我們就會參照委員的一個意見因為我們後台其實有在做一些類似玩客率輻射作業人員的我給你三項建議"},{"start":6084.053,"end":6109.571,"text":"就是第一項其實我們要檢討的其實除了這個績效的一個指標其實還不只要看流量啦而是要看大家真正能參與的一個程度那第二個部分其實甚至也希望我們能夠建立這個大眾化的轉譯跟所謂的使用者的這樣子的一個計算的一個機制納入所謂的科普跟數位設計的一個專業而不是只是讓我們看到是所謂的技術審查這是第二點那第三點我們要提出一些比較實質的一個效應的一個驗證啦"},{"start":6111.192,"end":6135.925,"text":"那麼包含玩客率使用者的回饋還有不同年齡層的使用的狀況還有互動的參考的一個成果好 這三點其實提供給你們做一些參考我想人民要的不是只有程序有在做而是我們的資訊要能夠被理解然後再來我們的風險能夠參與還有我們的安全能夠被信任這是我相信這也算是河岸會最重要的一個使命跟宗旨好 以上好 謝謝"},{"start":6137.246,"end":6153.559,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭育卿委員的質詢 請主委回座下一位 我們有請林怡菁委員進行詢答謝主席 有請主委 請主委主委長"},{"start":6161.543,"end":6183.297,"text":"這個上個月月底我們河岸會有在恆春證供所來舉辦這個地方說明會那很多的地方居民跟這個民間團體都有發表意見不過單單只舉辦說明會是否就叫完備社會溝通我是存疑的畢竟我覺得能源政策是攸關整個國家的發展"},{"start":6183.857,"end":6210.953,"text":"所以核能安全它也當然也與全國這個潛在受影響的對象大大相關所以本席認為我們這個再運轉計畫審查的同時我們應該持續在辦理這個多次的說明會來確實參考民眾的意見那首先本席要加以詢問的就是資訊公開與轉譯這點核安會是否有落實因為根據這個"},{"start":6212.95,"end":6231.225,"text":"IAEA它所訂定的這個原則就是核能安全管制在進行公眾溝通的時候其實它要落實有三個原則一個就是主動資訊公開一個是易於理解一個就是建立信任跟可追溯性這三個原則"},{"start":6232.126,"end":6261.606,"text":"那所以我們看到核安會其實在我們在運轉審查的這個相關資訊公告有建立這個網站可是網站所記載的這個還有在地方上所周知民眾的這些內容是否有落實完整的資訊公開這是最重要的那容易讓人理解這件事情我覺得為什麼之所以那麼說因為核能安全審查其實都是專業的術語那可是民眾唯一關鍵就是安全不安全"},{"start":6262.266,"end":6286.642,"text":"所以如果說連這個簡單的轉譯這個專業的名詞給民眾知道甚至是就是所謂用淺顯易懂的這個方式庶民語言來說明這個風險讓在地居民能充分理解我覺得這種基本要求如果做不到那本席認為其實沒有資格談核能使用核能這件事所以本席在這裡要強烈要求"},{"start":6287.102,"end":6311.201,"text":"就何安慧不是說只要辦多場的說明會而已我們要設計出一套讓人容易理解的這種政策說明還有就是潛在受影響的居民他應該要充分理解我們政策宣導的內容所以以上我剛說的這些要求何安慧你認為你目前做到多少那還可以再進進哪些部分"},{"start":6313.8,"end":6334.744,"text":"我覺得溝通是非常重要的我覺得我們還有很大的進步空間譬如說遷寫易懂的文字上的說明或是多用一些圖表避免用專有名詞這些我們都會持續進進我們做了第一場之後我們有回來檢討"},{"start":6338.055,"end":6360.985,"text":"有效的溝通讓大家放心這是我們持續會做的目標所以你們再來會再努力朝這個讓庶民語言讓民眾理解的這種方向去前進對 我們會往這方面走至於我剛剛說的就是說我們所謂的這個受淺視影響的這些地方包括你家恆春有辦對不對那車程滿週要辦庶民會嗎荷蘭會有沒有規劃"},{"start":6367.221,"end":6392.714,"text":"我想在附近都在鄰近而已耶雖然核電廠是在恆春可是他鄰近他車程滿洲都在隔壁而已他其實到時候如果發生意外的話或者發生事情的話其實車程滿洲是很容易這個吳立華委員最清楚了是年代極受影響的那這個你們有打算要去那邊辦說明會嗎有的"},{"start":6394.978,"end":6418.441,"text":"跟委員說明我們4月28雖然是在河村辦說明會我們也有邀請車程板牡丹鄉跟相關的鄰近的鄉鎮都有邀請他那另外我們也在當天也有開直播所以雖然沒辦法到場的關心的民眾他也可以透過直播的方式去了解整個議題以上說明"},{"start":6420.843,"end":6435.733,"text":"因為有人抱怨說很多人不知道有這樣的公聽會我們下次會在舉辦前很久會加強宣傳所有的團體可以請公所協助來幫忙宣傳嗎對市長是有市長也是有了還有我們會加強宣傳"},{"start":6439.656,"end":6468.735,"text":"好 那在眾所周知的部分就是說我們除了我剛剛提到的除了這個所謂的應變範圍內的居民沿路逃生路線的居民是不是也應該要充分理解我們核安會的各項政策說明為什麼要這樣講我們用河山場的蘇山路線來作為例子我們看到橫春對外的大條的這個聯外道路基本上只有台26線就是平和公路"},{"start":6469.475,"end":6489.202,"text":"那當然還有憑這個兩百線道啦那這個陸路的運輸上我們應該想最快最安全的輸散的可能那當然了 河岸會你們來說明的時候有說在現行的運輸方案下海運跟鐵路的替代運輸方案"},{"start":6490.763,"end":6508.729,"text":"不過我想我們面對這個天災或戰爭有可能的發生的時候河安會目前有沒有跟屏東縣政府來擬定周全的疏散計畫來做好對公眾的溝通這就變得很重要我們看完南部我們來看北部喔"},{"start":6509.549,"end":6527.389,"text":"這個新北合一合二場對外的大條的連外道路主要是台二線那充其量台二甲線也有辦法來負擔後續的應變緊急疏散那同樣的有沒有跟新北市政府做好溝通我想這也是核安會的任務畢竟"},{"start":6528.991,"end":6555.897,"text":"我們反應完了這個燃料棒還沒移出廠區那就是有風險啊所以本席要請教何安慧是說我們除了核子事故緊急應變範圍內的居民受潛在影響的居民比如說我們到恆春啊到萬里到金山石門的觀光客我們要如何讓這些沿線的民眾知道這個核子事故緊急應變的重要性主委"},{"start":6559.857,"end":6566.021,"text":"包括委员针对委员刚刚关心的就是像观光客游客的部分目前我们也跟地方政府都有合作"},{"start":6590.378,"end":6606.736,"text":"那我想我們一切都是為了防範於未來那所以當然也絕非是為了重啟核電來做準備因為我要強調是說我們核電廠即便沒有運作那可是它仍然有核廢料存放的廠區嘛"},{"start":6607.777,"end":6631.775,"text":"那只要核廢料存放到廠區它就有相當程度的風險所以不只前面提到的溝通要做好然後資訊要簡單明瞭然後風險要精準掌控我們也希望核安會真的要做好萬全的把關那麼在接下來的預算審查我們就會加以關注在緊急應變上面我們是不是有這個韌性存在請教核安會有把握做到嗎"},{"start":6633.706,"end":6648.419,"text":"這個韌性可以把關的韌性OK喔好那我們審查預算後再來好好談好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝林一錦委員的質詢請主委回座下一位我們有請羅志強委員進行詢答"},{"start":6667.915,"end":6693.225,"text":"主席有請主委請主委好 主委好我也好台灣絕對要投資核能使用能源不應該被汙名化請問你知道這句話誰說的嗎我也我不知道好 我告訴你是輝達執行長黃仁勳說的"},{"start":6697.059,"end":6723.464,"text":"他說台灣政府應該支持各種能源政策我們需要各種能源的來源風力、太陽能、核能台灣絕對要投資核能使用核能不應該被汙名科技巨頭跟先進國家都支持發展跟投資核電這已經是現在的一個趨勢主委你同意嗎"},{"start":6725.222,"end":6735.33,"text":"我同意包括輝達在內的科技巨頭還有像Google、亞馬遜都呼籲積極投資核電"},{"start":6738.929,"end":6758.947,"text":"發展AI先進國家美日韓也都以延益來發展核電那就是因應未來尤其AI時代非常龐大的電力需求這幾乎是世界的趨勢主委你之前也說過如果延益核電可以減輕供電壓力也有助穩定電價簡單來說台灣其實就是缺電"},{"start":6764.025,"end":6789.612,"text":"而且核電就是重要而且可行的解方之一沒錯吧是的那我要問主委你還記得過去非核家園喊停其實民進黨喊停非核家園其實就認清這個事實所以國民黨也就修了核管法讓核電研議嘛這您知道嘛是的這點主委是認同的嘛對不對謝謝"},{"start":6792.355,"end":6814.814,"text":"所以我們也看到黃仁勳苦口婆心他講得非常的好點出了投資核能的必要性但我要問主委如果有人跟你講他反對核電然後不准你發電那又批評政府不把用電問題解決你會不會覺得邏輯有點矛盾啊電力"},{"start":6821.861,"end":6835.493,"text":"供應是經濟部要規劃的事情對核安會是負責把關核能的安全好啦 我不為難署委讓大家來公判"},{"start":6837.844,"end":6865.98,"text":"如果有一個人他過去反對黃榮興口中非常重要的未來的趨勢的發電方式就是核電過去常年也是作為我們國家發展的機載電力然後結果現在跟大家講說你看現在電不夠你沒有把用電問題解決政府沒有把用電問題解決無能那大家來公判啊這樣的人是不是邏輯矛盾我要告訴大家我輸的人是誰啊"},{"start":6867.233,"end":6894.58,"text":"就是沈博洋啊民進黨要參選台北市長的沈博洋就直接示範了這種邏輯死亡啊台北市好不容易爭取到揮打來台北市社總部全世界都在關心AI帶來的效應結果我們台北市講到北市科他的批評哇"},{"start":6895.885,"end":6918.476,"text":"非常的高明啊他批評蔣恩來沒有解決用電問題我告訴大家羅志強可以批評我們政府有沒有解決用電問題國民黨可以批評有沒有解決用電問題就你沈伯陽沒資格為什麼你過去你是投票反對核管法耶"},{"start":6920.247,"end":6941.112,"text":"你是反對核電延逸欸你是反對台灣用核能發電來解決我們未來可能的缺電問題欸結果你跟大家講就是說批評台北市政府沒有解決用電問題一審不押就台灣用電最大的絆腳石啊"},{"start":6943.294,"end":6970.245,"text":"自己反對核電也反對黃文興提出來的能源需求然後要選台北市長搖身變為電力專家我還是覺得啦能源政策第一個回歸專業第二個要有一自信不要你過去反對什麼東西就今天換個角度換個身份就把過去曾經反對的事情全部忘光光"},{"start":6972.092,"end":6999.554,"text":"這樣不是一個負責任的一個未來首長我接下來想請教我們主委今天我們審查核安會的預算過去幾次詢答跟說明當中我覺得主委都非常願意務實面對我們核電議題的現在狀況這一點我要對主委跟核安會的專業給予肯定給予肯定但我今天想談一個"},{"start":7002.009,"end":7028.457,"text":"組織結構跟政策高度的問題核安會的前身是哪個單位原子能委員會2023年5月這個民進黨當時是國會多數立法院通過把核能安全委員會組織法從原本的二級單位的原能會降為三級單位的"},{"start":7030.575,"end":7051.67,"text":"何安會當時民進黨多數所以執政黨修法降級但你記得當時國民黨在內所有在野黨甚至包括民眾黨跟時代力量的立場是什麼記得嗎我那時候還不是何安會主委比較"},{"start":7057.295,"end":7083.326,"text":"我依然不為難主委啦這樣主委心裡應該有答案啦都是反對的啊都是反對降級的啊那為什麼反對降級因為大家知道當時政府齁其實要把核安會降級啊就是因為說2025要非核家園嘛反正核電廠都會關掉啊所以核安會不要講核安會降級了有一天核安會沒有都無所謂啊"},{"start":7085.009,"end":7110.119,"text":"那就是那個邏輯啊可是現在政府要轉彎了飛河將於省主牌要丟到垃圾桶了要重啟核電啦我樂見啦我樂見啦也證實當時民進黨強推飛河的錯誤嘛只是說這些問題到現在為止坦白講都是全民承擔啊可是我就要問主委喔"},{"start":7111.738,"end":7138.127,"text":"本來民進黨非核家園所以把核安會降級坦白講啦依照非核家園這神主牌的邏輯我覺得可能還說得通只是他們撐不住轉彎了可是現在核電重啟未來有更多新核能的相關發展請問核安會的業務跟監督審查力道是不是都需要增加"},{"start":7141.65,"end":7160.837,"text":"工作量是有增加的當然啦一定的嘛核電廠光光光跟核電廠全部要重啟工作量怎麼會增加不會增加一點點我告訴你會增加很多吧你光現在審查核電廠的那個重啟你有沒有增加業務負擔對啊所以呢我覺得"},{"start":7162.593,"end":7190.704,"text":"過去為什麼我們講原能會也好核安會也好是二級單位因為那時候核能作為我們重要的能源發展的積載電力所以那個時候核能安全又非常的重要所以需要有一個足夠能力足夠專業來為核安把關的原能會或者是核安會沒錯吧對不對對可是現在我就要問了既然現在"},{"start":7192.503,"end":7203.491,"text":"又要重啟核電啊神主牌也不見啊那我想請問我們主委啊你是不是認同我們現在核安會應該要恢復升格啊"},{"start":7206.071,"end":7231.919,"text":"呃 如果升格的話還有涉及行政院組織法等等啊恐怕是行政院我知道啦 那修法問題啊也是也不勞我們這個主委來煩惱啦我們是針對業務單位的需求如果業務單位有這個需求國家發展有這個需要那立法院就有義務來去支持我們該有的修法工作我只問主委你覺得有這樣的需要嗎"},{"start":7233.444,"end":7244.977,"text":"目前我們按照我們既有制度我們還繼續做核安會的審查工作好啦不為難你 再次不為難你啦我要跟你講啦"},{"start":7246.454,"end":7267.266,"text":"其實早在原能會時期過去就有主委是反對降級而且我們看到像美國日本韓國這些都重啟或研議核電也都越來越重視核能所以本席認為真的是應該來去研議好好來幫助核安會啦因為幫助核安會是幫助大家沒錯吧"},{"start":7268.727,"end":7287.594,"text":"因為民進黨當初廢核也是說怕核能不安全這一點到底不能說是不對的所以需要核安會有專業有足夠的人力來去維持核電安全的我們的一個專業機關所以這一點核安會的角色跟重要性我覺得是與日俱增"},{"start":7289.246,"end":7315.214,"text":"那我就講 比方舉個例子降級到三級機構之後委員會人數本來是11人到15人嘛 對不對現在委員是多少5到7人嘛 對不對然後所以我們可以看到人力資源規模各方面都在減少那是因為因應非核家園配合非核家園的政策那既然非核家園已經不再是省主牌"},{"start":7316.274,"end":7327.523,"text":"那我覺得本席認為真的是應該要來重新思考河安會的一個升級的部分好那麼我接下來想請教一下就是說"},{"start":7330.66,"end":7358.937,"text":"过去我们不断关注核安会也不断要求依法台电对于储存在核电厂跟蓝宇的低放射性废物有23万多桶对不对是的他应该要选定最终处置厂值对不对是的台电做了没有台电现在有核后端的专责机构在处理这方面的事情我跟你讲没有进展对不对是没有进展进展比较缓慢"},{"start":7361.141,"end":7386.778,"text":"你有緩慢叫客氣啦你的緩慢是慢到接近於零啦也許你有做紙上工作啦河安會113年兩次114年三次115年目前一次三次都發函找台電開會嘛對不對沒錯吧要台電來推動低放的長子嘛那我要跟大家講那請問台電給你的回應是什麼"},{"start":7390.607,"end":7413.729,"text":"台電的回應其實是因為目前經濟部有成立專責機構要來幫他們我這句話給你翻白話好不好因為經濟部成立專責機構就甩都不甩你何然會啦不是這個意思我看到立法院審查會議真的不勝唏噓啊我們過去在野黨針對所謂的非核家園所問的問題啊擔心的事情全部都命中"},{"start":7415.256,"end":7430.29,"text":"所以我們可以看到這也跟核安會坦白講降級也有關係今天一個三級機關你怎麼去跟其他的部會來去據理力爭來堅持我們核電的安全所以這是為什麼今天要特別來質詢來強調"},{"start":7432.864,"end":7452.08,"text":"民進黨過去的能源政策錯誤擺出為了省主牌把台灣的能源安全棄於不顧所以當時連帶的把和安會降級但是既然現在迷途知返對不對願意轉彎改變能源政策"},{"start":7453.254,"end":7474.501,"text":"那同樣過去因為錯誤能源政策所造成的錯誤的所謂的機關的改制也必須一併的把它補正啊所以河岸會的角色我認為是會越來越重要我覺得也辛苦河岸會的同仁啦你們未來的角色是越來越重要所以這次也是希望我們河岸會繼續努力好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":7478.095,"end":7482.778,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的質詢請主委回座接下來請吳麗華召委質詢謝謝主席有請主委請主委"},{"start":7510.687,"end":7518.735,"text":"主委好主委好我们在去年五月我们修法修了合管法"},{"start":7520.476,"end":7541.356,"text":"也等同把過去非核家園這樣的一個目標被迫重新開門重啟核電面對這樣的一個修法結果看到核三廠這邊你們核安會也開始在做審查運轉執照換發的說明會"},{"start":7545.001,"end":7553.136,"text":"我們大家好幾位委員都有提到4月28那場說明會那我不知道說下一場預定在什麼時候"},{"start":7557.207,"end":7574.664,"text":"跟委員說明,那個再運轉計畫現在還在審查,所以要等到按照規劃就是審查快要告一個段落才會召開,但目前還不確定所以完全沒有辦法預估下一次那好幾位委員呢,也針對4月28這場書名會"},{"start":7577.447,"end":7605.376,"text":"有幫各位來做一個檢討檢討就是希望改進改進就是希望下一次能夠聽到比較少的民怨那各位也都知道其實民怨很簡單它就是覺得說怎麼有的人知道我不知道怎麼有的人被邀我沒有被邀民怨就是為什麼不配合我方便的時間偏偏要找我那個很不方便的時間"},{"start":7607.077,"end":7633.344,"text":"但是呢那一天好幾個單位專家例如地球公民基金會主婦聯盟環境保護基金會又或者是像中山大學的研究能源的教授等等他們指出來的這個要需要反省檢討的其實非常的一致一致什麼呢就是第一個葉數很多700多葉708葉"},{"start":7636.885,"end":7663.477,"text":"另外一個就是說內容很難都是專業的術語所以一整個感覺包括民怨其實就代表著三個字感受就是不友善那我想當我們在做說明會就是要來進行溝通所以我希望像上次我有提醒不要只有邀請恆春滿洲還要記得邀請牡丹車程這個有改進了嘛"},{"start":7663.977,"end":7687.925,"text":"但是今天講的這些我們是希望說能夠再一次的改進包括事前意見的彙整這個也非常的重要你才能夠去準備嘛所以我在這邊想要請教一下我們和安會這邊有沒有自己專屬的網站我講的不是網站我講的是粉絲專頁"},{"start":7690.947,"end":7714.233,"text":"臉書有沒有有的例如叫什麼服務小站核安會的服務小站那另外還有沒有沒有我看你們還有國家原子能科技研究院那是核安會監督的一個研究單位那一天4月28說明會有沒有參加"},{"start":7718.206,"end":7746.023,"text":"有沒有參加這個單位有沒有參加沒有沒有參加有還是沒有沒有沒有的原因是什麼他是不相干他是行政法人所以這個會是由和安會自己來主辦的我有特別進去看你們這兩個臉書那我特別去看說4月28的資訊有沒有沒有看到"},{"start":7747.263,"end":7767.484,"text":"開完了之後有沒有相關的報導也沒有看到所以我們的意思是說其實溝通社會的溝通我們不斷的講和安社會的溝通非常的重要所以我這邊再增加一個提醒我甚至覺得"},{"start":7768.482,"end":7778.295,"text":"你們可以把這一些很難讀懂的這些專業的報告術語為什麼不要製作短影音"},{"start":7779.926,"end":7807.089,"text":"不一定要不僅是放在你們的臉書啊你們可以去轉發啊給在地的群組啊這個都是一個很好的服務嘛主委我講的這一些下一次會改進嗎會的我也作為滾動式檢討這是我們重點要改進的部分我真的覺得你們要多做一點短影音嘛趕快發一發因為這是一個社會溝通非常好的管道可以嗎好"},{"start":7808.55,"end":7830.048,"text":"所以在這個地方我只是要提醒地方的一個參與不是我們所謂的去政策宣導我希望這個部分一定要確保安全的對話空間然後你們提供出來的資訊一定要公開但是公開還要有不同意見"},{"start":7831.149,"end":7849.152,"text":"的公開決策的理由的公開所以我希望重啟核電它不僅是技術的審查也是一種民主治理的展現所以在這個地方希望我們能夠破除這種所謂的不友善所謂的黑箱好不好"},{"start":7850.073,"end":7875.456,"text":"好谢谢那另外我还关心一个议题既然我们已经就三读了我们就开启了把门已经打开了本来要非核家园我们重启核电我们还是要谈一个回去谈一个问题就是核子损害赔偿法核子损害赔偿法我知道的是这是民国60年发布的"},{"start":7876.929,"end":7901.957,"text":"最近一次的修正呢是在民國86年1997那民國105年也就是這個21216年行政院曾經也有提出過修正條文想請教一下主委這個105年行政院曾經提出過的修正條文主要是關心什麼"},{"start":7905.066,"end":7925.682,"text":"我們覺得就是需要修正了我們會朝檢討免責事由提升損害賠償的責任金額以及延長請求權時效這三大方向來做依照國際公約來做未來修法的參考現在"},{"start":7927.423,"end":7938.608,"text":"115距離你們上一次想要修又10年對不對對我知道的是民國60年第一次發布的時候這個事故的賠償啊上限是7000萬"},{"start":7940.481,"end":7964.606,"text":"所以在1997年民國86年的時候有修正過改為42億那105年我不知道你們的修正條文是什麼但是現在是115年你覺得要怎麼修正我們現在還在監討之中會比上42億的幅度會增加很多那我們來看一下河島的福災"},{"start":7966.8,"end":7990.669,"text":"他截至目前他賠出去的金額是台幣5.22兆我們還在那邊一直炒黨軍購1.25兆多可怕多多會妨害民生妨礙很多國家的事務福島核災截至目前已經賠償5.22兆台幣主委您覺得如何"},{"start":7992.006,"end":8011.73,"text":"是,我們上次的電腦數目,我現在來說是偏低了所以一定會大幅提升好,那日本、德國、瑞士,您說大幅提升,人家是無上限,陪到滿意那我們可以符合這個目標嗎?這個..."},{"start":8017.222,"end":8023.049,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法像日本德國瑞士無上限我們是有上限他們是無上限那我希望你看這個數據美國5216億台幣"},{"start":8035.683,"end":8058.425,"text":"芬兰我们都知道现在这个高阶的核废料芬兰应该是全世界唯一有在做它是406亿赔偿上限英国385亿台币赔偿上限所以我想这个部分我希望说未来像核赔法第18条我们也提到"},{"start":8059.887,"end":8076.608,"text":"國際武裝衝突我們知道這個是國際的共識免責啦免罰啦但是重大天然災害過去是免罰我們要不要修法你剛剛有說重大天然災害要不要修法"},{"start":8079.088,"end":8100.557,"text":"要嘛所以我們現在行政院是要修法嘛因為已經像新版的巴黎公約他們已經認為重大天然災害應該是可以預防因應的天災的發生的範圍內對不對那我想這個部分該修我們就修我想現在大家"},{"start":8101.912,"end":8131.143,"text":"我們真的是希望非核啦但是因為已經修法三讀通過嘛那我們也只能往這個方向前進但是我覺得該做的特別是核安會核安會面對戰爭面對可能的天然災害我想核安會則無旁貸那兩個禮拜內是不是可以讓我知道修法的方向可以的好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8143.108,"end":8147.172,"text":"接下来我们有请蔡春筹委员进行询答"},{"start":8162.87,"end":8165.792,"text":"主席好 有請陳主委請主委主委好 委員好今天我們要來審理核安慰的一個預算本席先請陳主委能夠理解對核安慰我們必要的一個預算原則上我一定是支持的"},{"start":8189.065,"end":8209.83,"text":"但每一筆預算都是人民的納稅錢那本席有責任監督預算的一個編列是有能夠嚴密的執行各項的一個安全管制的工作並持續的深化國際合作的一個關係推動科普教育及人才的培育"},{"start":8210.79,"end":8232.096,"text":"然後能夠落實知性透明以及有效的一個民眾溝通的一個目標所以我要請問主委在核安會今年編列了465萬的一個核電廠應轉跟處理安全管制的一個相關計畫"},{"start":8233.556,"end":8251.211,"text":"那核電廠無論是進入廚藝的一個階段或者是面對近期各界關切的一個研議的一個議題那安全永遠是最高的一個原則那我最特別關心的是核安會本身為監理機關"},{"start":8253.092,"end":8262.999,"text":"那如何來落實獨立的一個驗證而不僅僅是書面的一個審查台電的一個報告請問主委是的"},{"start":8268.946,"end":8283.518,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司依法提出除役或者是再運轉的計畫送到會裡面來審查法案外就是依照法規跟審查導致來進行專業的審查那委員所關心的事實上"},{"start":8284.498,"end":8304.415,"text":"不管是族裔或者是在運轉會裡面除了法規之外我們也有參考國際的相關經驗那也考量到國內的管制實務然後去會編成管制的要項來進行專業的審查確保各方面的審查可以維持審查的品質跟審查的周詳"},{"start":8305.855,"end":8321.008,"text":"好 謝謝 那能不能就是針對這個獨立驗證方法這些具體的而且能夠充分的了解跟國際安全標準同步的評估技術能夠舉例說明嗎"},{"start":8324.632,"end":8349.944,"text":"跟委員說明比如說那個耐震這部分那核安衛也透過研究計畫委託學界來幫我們收集國外的先進的一些專業技術那也可以這部分除了可以加強核安衛的專業審查那在台電公司送審耐震報告的時候核安衛就可以去更精準的去掌握台電公司是不是符合國際的標準以上說好"},{"start":8350.724,"end":8365.691,"text":"我們希望能夠在更積極的跟國際上能夠都能夠在安全上都能夠接軌再來我們面臨的就是我們現在常常各部會常常在談到的就是極端氣候"},{"start":8367.052,"end":8384.469,"text":"會威脅到一個電廠運作跟安全那但只要增強對核電廠的一個管制就能夠正確的一個回應都有一個回應的方式讓核能能夠在對抗氣候變遷中的一個能源政策具有相關的一個關鍵的一個地位"},{"start":8384.969,"end":8407.615,"text":"那面對極端氣候的一個常態化全球核能安全的評估已經將極端氣候納入換照還有安全要求當中那請問主委現在有核安檢查是否能夠充分評估極端氣候造成複合式的一個災難的風險嗎有做這樣的一個配套評估嗎"},{"start":8413.441,"end":8436.286,"text":"跟委員說明就是目前核電廠內的這個評估都有把就是每三年都會進行一次然後都有把就是因為因應委員所關心的這種極端氣候所以他們像緊急應變計畫區或者是民眾的防護行動他每三年都會做一次然後把這些複合式災害的一些風險情境納進來去做前世的一些分析 以上"},{"start":8439.128,"end":8462.905,"text":"我們也希望剛剛所講的這些評估能夠做到位讓氣候變遷我們能夠針對這樣的一個繁煥達到真正的一個社會韌性所以本席要求和安慰一定要建立一套更透明更具體力更具"},{"start":8463.505,"end":8474.094,"text":"獨立性的一個監理制度還有強化對於極端氣候造成的一個複合型的災難的風險再來我還要再繼續下一個問題就是河安會身為原職人的一個業務主管機關所附的"},{"start":8483.341,"end":8498.649,"text":"核能跟輻射安全是天職當然安全不僅在於一個技術的一個數據的堆疊更要能夠獲得社會大眾的信任剛剛我們有很多的委員對於"},{"start":8500.287,"end":8505.91,"text":"都非常關心有關於社區民眾對河安的參與我們很多委員都很關心公眾參與跟民眾溝通的相關預算我認為河安會目前表現能有很大的改進空間"},{"start":8522.797,"end":8546.365,"text":"不能夠只有做單向的先導必須能夠做轉向雙向那剛剛我們很多委員都針對一些說明會來做一個說明那我個人認為我們不要一向的單向由上而下應該是由下而上"},{"start":8548.005,"end":8570.723,"text":"公民參與然後讓這些居民對地方的認同相對的認同以後對於核電廠一樣也就來認同了所以我們在這個地方我想要問說像我們四月的時候所舉辦的一些公開說明會到底你們收集了多少民眾的意見然後這些意見最後又"},{"start":8571.524,"end":8579.101,"text":"有多少一個被正式採納對於民眾的一個疑慮和安慰是有完整的一個回復追蹤機制"},{"start":8580.866,"end":8605.803,"text":"跟委員說明在4月28號大部分委員還是提出核電廠運轉的安全核廢料以及緊急應變包括疏散道路等等那這部分我們都已經彙整好了那也已經請相關的單位來提出回應說明那回應完之後我們會再次彙整彙整完我們就會公佈在核安慰的網站"},{"start":8607.164,"end":8622.87,"text":"另外一部分就是針對這些民眾公眾所提出的意見我們再會去檢視核安會所提出來的意見然後進行交叉比對如果沒有的話我們也會納入我們的審查意見裡面來要求台電公司進行回應說明"},{"start":8624.151,"end":8640.03,"text":"我們一定要來尊重我們地方居民的一些意見畢竟他們才知道他們真正需要什麼然後他們的風險在哪裡所以我們希望就是說這些說起之後能夠"},{"start":8641.211,"end":8664.036,"text":"做一個回復的一個機制那何安衛呢在進行預算溝通的時候呢有沒有提供詳細的一個媒體先導的一個明細然後來說明你們如何評估這些先導的成效那如果你們只拿到媒體的瀏覽次數或是曝光度當作績效那我覺得這樣做是還不夠的"},{"start":8667.837,"end":8670.7,"text":"我要求那個核安會要建立一套客觀的一個平衡指標然後例如民眾對於胡適知識的一個正確的一個認知的一個提升還有參與者的一個溝通對政策的疑慮能夠具體減少剛剛我們的吳釗"},{"start":8685.957,"end":8699.513,"text":"那个吴昭文他也讲也有提到有很多事之后是你讲的都不够白话那很多民众都听不懂看不懂然后在这个部分你们又要如何来做一个改善呢"},{"start":8701.881,"end":8730.703,"text":"跟委員報告我們非常了解委員非常關心整個宣導溝通不能只有單項一定要雙項當然除了這些專業的審查之外我們平常我們有辦科普展就是我們到各個縣市去然後直接面對面由我們這些專家直接面對面跟民眾溝通我們也希望說直接拿到這個委員那個民眾對核安會的看法"},{"start":8731.323,"end":8760.158,"text":"也希望我們這些專家能夠用更白話的語言跟民眾溝通我想這我們會繼續的努力那剛剛說明了這樣有這麼多的專家到全台灣各個地方來做一個先導那這個先導就一定要到位那如果說你先導不到位民眾很多都不知道來的人不多那也等於就是說浪費掉了這個我想需要就是一定要掌握"},{"start":8760.818,"end":8783.708,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 那最後就請何安威一定要記住新任的一個建議來自於對話的一個誠意那本席要求何安威必須要提出具體的一個資訊公開改善的一個方案讓複雜的何安監理書記還有廢棄物的一個管制的一個情形轉化為簡單的易懂的圖卡"},{"start":8785.168,"end":8806.44,"text":"或者是用此比較白話的信息能夠安全以火的知是公眾的一個潛意所以在這裡不只是剛剛我們所說的不是實驗室裡面的一個數據的報告而是要讓全民都能夠來了解能夠來投入以上跟大家交流"},{"start":8808.54,"end":8828.4,"text":"谢谢蔡春筹委员的质询请主委回座下一位我们有请陈秀宝委员进行询答稍后在陈秀宝委员询答完毕之后我们休息五分钟谢谢主席请和安会陈主委请陈主委"},{"start":8834.605,"end":8860.796,"text":"主委好主委好首先我們先就核能廠的安全我們來進行相關的詢問去年3月的時候核三廠有發生火警所幸當時沒有造成任何的災情當時有調查了起火的原因是廠商在切割鐵材的火花引燃了旁邊的塑膠物品才過一年核二廠又發生火警"},{"start":8861.756,"end":8887.485,"text":"主委請問一下這次核電廠的火警起火原因你們調查出來了嗎有的跟委員說明初步是因為陷入絕緣劣化那確確的原因消防單位還在調查當中他們會做火調就對了核電廠接連發生火警的意外核安會你們有沒有要求台電業檢討他們的疏失"},{"start":8889.734,"end":8907.172,"text":"跟委員說明確實從去年3月6號跟今年5月14號雖然地點不同那我們已經要求台電公司針對核電廠包括核123廠的全廠的防護範圍跟改善措施或者是它的因應措施要提出一個完整的"},{"start":8907.532,"end":8923.159,"text":"所以你們有要求台電要做核電廠連年發生這個火警意外其實會讓民眾覺得說核電的安全會有疑慮他們會覺得說為什麼核電廠會失火當然失火的原因跟我們這個核電機組本身是沒有關係的"},{"start":8923.939,"end":8944.569,"text":"但是在核電廠發生這樣的狀況就會讓民眾有這樣子高度的疑慮雖然說我們現在核電機組目前是沒有在運轉但是我們核電廠裡面還有高階的核廢料以及使用過的這些燃料棒所以安全是不能輕忽的我希望說核安會要我希望你們可以提供你們檢討安全環境防護的書面報告全面來檢視核電廠廠區的安全這可以嗎"},{"start":8952.309,"end":8957.854,"text":"可以的提供這樣的報告給委員會的每一個委員可以的那多久可以提供"},{"start":8961.59,"end":8983.186,"text":"接下來我想要請教主委近期牙醫工會正在爭取放寬手持式的牙科X光機法規限制希望可以免除必須設置專屬X光式來執行X光檢查的規定會有這樣的考量主要說現在有一些比較特殊的醫療需求"},{"start":8984.167,"end":8998.127,"text":"像長照機構偏鄉巡迴還是居家這種到宅的醫療需求還有一些身心障礙的這樣的病患的服務長者可能移動不便偏鄉你不可能在偏鄉這邊有這樣子的設施"},{"start":9000.81,"end":9027.09,"text":"有一些像身心障礙這樣子的有一些相關的需求如果說我們在移動的話也是有一些風險產生所以楊醫師他們這邊也提供了說目前國際上使用手持式這個X光機的這個輻射量呢他們評估起來是遠低於每個人每年自然背景輻射量他們覺得這個是相對安全的那我想請教主委你們目前河岸會對針對開放這種"},{"start":9029.591,"end":9056.628,"text":"亞醫師公會所要求申請的這個手持式的X光機你們有什麼看法這個方會對所有的管制都是滾動式檢討而且因為科技進步等等會讓某些風險會一直往下降所以我們也會滾動式檢討跟國際標準像ICRP IAEA國際研究院等主署"},{"start":9057.228,"end":9082.834,"text":"他們標準要一致的我們已經研定相關的總則請亞伊斯工會在審閱之中或許還會跟衛福部合作整合與戰士申請申辦諮詢實施協助醫療機構加速申請的流程所以我們會一直做改進所以比方說偏鄉的那些我們都會有與時俱進"},{"start":9084.209,"end":9106.411,"text":"因為在牙科的這個診療當中其實牙醫師他們在使用X光劑來檢查即使說我們在我們巡迴的醫療或是說我們在社區這樣子的醫療他可能沒有辦法在那個時候進行拔牙但是如果有X光劑的檢查至少可以早期的及早來判斷"},{"start":9107.352,"end":9130.578,"text":"他做根管治療還是做拔牙這個需求性那再來安排病人來做相關的治療但是本席在這邊我要表達我是尊重我們核安會的專業評估剛才主委您也說到了這個要跟衛福部來討論過希望說你們在這個整個的這個申請跟我們安全民眾安全及"},{"start":9131.318,"end":9157.975,"text":"操作X光機人員的安全這個都也要注意到畢竟他操作這樣的機器的話對他本身這個輻射這個接受量還有說相關周邊人員這個都要考量到所以我希望說我們要經過很嚴謹的討論包括跟衛福部來討論相關的使用儀器使用這個規範我們才能兼顧病患民眾及操作人員的健康權益是的"},{"start":9159.724,"end":9178.41,"text":"所以這個部分呢就請你們後續呢針對這個部分的申請如果有相關的進度也希望一份報告給我辦公室好的謝謝主委接下來呢我還要請教關於就是合工人才培育的問題那上一次合安會這邊有表達就是說你們有向教育部爭取呢這個"},{"start":9179.11,"end":9194.037,"text":"公費留考的項目有新增了這個核子工程項目這個部分之外內政部呢也有預告將修正規劃國籍之高級專業人才認定標準那經核安會建議你們有新增了這個核能的專業"},{"start":9195.097,"end":9217.774,"text":"有感觉得出来说河安会针对这个育才染才你们是有在想办法的这个部分我还是要肯定也支持但是我们能不能做更多我们还有什么可以去加强这个部分呢目前除了上次你们我有问到的就是新增公费留考的项目呢目前有的就是关于清大和公所呢"},{"start":9218.194,"end":9246.801,"text":"何安慧现在有做内部培训针对同仁开这个受核能安全课程我想请教一下那现在内部同仁对这个课程的报名的状况以及你们做这样的课程你们的目标是什么报名非常踊跃有40多位同仁报名他目标是能够取得清华大学核子工程硕士学位的学程"},{"start":9247.967,"end":9265.429,"text":"所以其實在我們內部對這樣的課程也是覺得說十分有這個需求也是很踴躍的那這個部分也是要肯定卓偉寧的用心在這邊我要強調不管核電未來的走向到底是存貨費或者說我們其他有其他的發展"},{"start":9265.97,"end":9283.204,"text":"其實人才都是我們最重要的資產尤其現在國際間對於整個核能的運用及研究是非常的盛行所以相關的研究也十分的需要這些相關的核工人才來進行但有一點就是核能的"},{"start":9284.045,"end":9311.512,"text":"薪資待遇有想會是人才流向一個意願的關鍵五國的合共人才薪資在國際間可能比較中斷比較後斷這個對於人才的延攬流刃是有一定的衝擊希望和安會這邊你們可以很謹慎來思考而且一定要編列相關的預算人才培育的預算希望能繼續來充實我國合共的人才這個部分主委你怎麼回應"},{"start":9312.632,"end":9334.264,"text":"對,我們一直往這方面向走,實際上我們全力在做這方面的事情因為我們確實有很多年沒有進入和根輪才,沒有在和根輪才就有這種狀況所以我們盡全力培養這方面的人,從外面招考也好,從內部培養也好,全力在增加這方面的訓練"},{"start":9336.152,"end":9360.979,"text":"核安會不是只為了核電而存在核安會所管的相關的核能的發展核能的安全還有剛才我提到像這個X光機這個安全上使用上這個都是核能就是相關的這些都是核能的專業都是我們核安會你們有這樣子的專業來規範它而且相關的這個核工人才呢未來對於國際上的這個"},{"start":9364.02,"end":9387.001,"text":"發展趨勢我們也要跟著上腳步我們也要相關我們這樣的人才的儲備來因應未來世界的潮流所以這個部分呢我請主委也請我們和安會能夠持續的來努力好的謝謝主委謝謝委員關係好謝謝秀寶委員的質詢請主委回座我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9404.997,"end":9406.278,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":9435.631,"end":9437.512,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":9464.384,"end":9464.865,"text":"好玩啊"},{"start":9483.781,"end":9484.021,"text":"好,我們來試試看"},{"start":9692.11,"end":9706.621,"text":"好 我们现在继续询答下一位有请中嘉宾委员中嘉宾委员中嘉宾委员不在下一位有请叶元之委员进行询答"},{"start":9723.326,"end":9725.069,"text":"主席好 麻煩請河岸會主委謝謝有請陳主委"},{"start":9733.38,"end":9756.56,"text":"主委好委員好我剛剛看到非常多的委員在針對就是核安會所舉辦的那個屏東的地方說明會給很多建議啦我看到主委也沒有辯駁啦主委感覺上好像都虛心的接受啦因為很多委員批評說流於形勢那我覺得我在乎的除了地方說明會之外其實核安會應該要到"},{"start":9758.241,"end":9773.613,"text":"應該要再加強對全國的宣傳因為現在感覺上賴總統已經要轉彎了嘛本來是黨核電在去年還叫大家投票不要投核三演義公投要叫大家投不同意票然後民進黨在修核管法的時候一直在亂罵"},{"start":9774.594,"end":9794.008,"text":"那現在大家也...我也沒有看到民進黨在亂罵了啦所謂顯然就是社會要朝向這個重啟河山的方向前進那可是重啟河山有一個很關鍵的就是賴總統設定的條件就是除了河安無與河廢有解之外還有一個社會共識但社會共識這件事情就是很抽象"},{"start":9794.628,"end":9817.577,"text":"就什麼叫社會共識那它的指標是什麼怎麼評判這要做民調嗎還是要是做用什麼方式公聽會然後做問卷還是怎麼樣什麼叫社會共識所以這個社會共識這四個是非常抽象那社會共識也有可能會成為未來核電可以重啟或不能重啟的關鍵因為這非常抽象沒有一定的標準"},{"start":9818.998,"end":9844.557,"text":"所以我覺得無論如何 核安會還是要針對這個事情做準備那核安會如果覺得在諸委的專業的判斷裡面你如果認為核電廠重啟是沒有問題的我認為核安會從現在開始除了去地方做說明會之外你要跟全國做說明那當然你去每一個縣市辦說明會是也許對你們來說負擔比較重但最起碼你可以加強媒體的宣傳或網路的宣傳"},{"start":9845.717,"end":9867.768,"text":"可是我看到這一塊我覺得是比較弱我特別去看了一下你們的臉書那臉書的第一個它的效果很差啦我不敢說有限 我都不想講有限 很差主委你平常會去你們自己的核安會臉書去看嗎你平常會看嗎 你知道最近一篇發文是什麼嗎"},{"start":9869.978,"end":9886.488,"text":"報告委員我不知道所以這個網站的發文都是誰負責報告委員是我們同仁自己當小編小編直接發就是都不需要核安會的我們這個主管有看過主管最高層級是到哪裡到組長"},{"start":9888.551,"end":9905.793,"text":"就是我有看過所以你知道最新一篇是什麼嗎?他在講那個Alpha,Beta,Gamma他有一張圖我是不曉得為什麼一個政府機關政府機關對外溝通都要搞得好像學術發表一樣你這臉書是給專業人士看的嗎?還是希望給一般民眾看?"},{"start":9906.77,"end":9928.688,"text":"我們當然希望給一般民眾也能看得懂那問題是如果給一般民眾看的話你的用詞潛字這麼專業大家要怎麼看你當然要把它變成類似科普或是用比較白話的方式謝謝委員指導這個我們會繼續努力因為真的確實比較艱澀我們會盡量用白話的方式讓一般民眾都能夠接受"},{"start":9930.208,"end":9954.173,"text":"第一個就是你寫作的方式我覺得有很大的改進的空間所以你的成效很差就是說比如說暗戰術甚至於它的觸及率、瀏覽數可能都不高第二個問題就是我剛剛講了像我自己就比較關心核電廠重啟社會共識的部分可是你們對於核電廠的部分其實著迫是很少的"},{"start":9954.753,"end":9983.752,"text":"像我是有看到比如說像你們4月8號有一個標題叫核電廠內政安全然後冒號科學實證專業監督然後寫了三個標準第一個標準叫做原始設計基準要讓它奠定穩固安全餘裕第二個地震危害評估要讓它滾動式科學再評估第三個整體安全強化要監督落實防護升級我不要講我覺得你們有寫跟沒寫一樣所以你們你是認為怎樣"},{"start":9985.214,"end":9993.268,"text":"現在你除了是布達說你會專業監督之外你想要表達什麼比如說在這篇文上面"},{"start":9994.028,"end":10021.27,"text":"是跟委員報告一下因為這一陣子再運轉的議題很夯所以我們在4月10幾號那幾篇我們都會盡量用圖表的方式把我們的審查程序啊還有民眾關切的議題啊我們盡量用圖表的方式呈現他可能沒有這麼達到委員的邀請有圖表啦但是大家不太知道你到底想要表達什麼嗎你是想表達什麼你是想要跟大家解釋你們的這個"},{"start":10023.594,"end":10047.49,"text":"在運轉計畫的審查你們的標準還是你是想要告訴大家說其實是安全的耐震這些都OK你是想要表達什麼嗎就是像我去看我會不知道你想要跟社會當中講什麼我不知道跟委員報告一下我們那一篇主要是要表達說那些名詞到底是什麼然後第二個就是說我們的標準到底是要什麼"},{"start":10048.464,"end":10070.454,"text":"好 可以讓民眾放心啦這個如果文字寫得不夠理想 我們會再努力就是第一個我覺得訴求要明確啦就是你到底發這個文你到底是要講什麼事情這是第一件事情第二件事我覺得篇幅太少了還是要如果說要朝向社會共識這個角度其實你們可以多做一些啦好 當然那個"},{"start":10071.687,"end":10079.269,"text":"我知道你們會扯到什麼預算什麼怎樣因為之前好像也有討論過這個議題但我也有跟大家跟你們建議過因為你這都要採取一種"},{"start":10080.512,"end":10103.872,"text":"打蛇隨棍上的方式因為現在社會很關注這個議題所以可以針對這個議題被討論的時候趕快利用話題然後去做宣傳那就可以吸引大家來看嘛上次不是有個民進黨的青岩才俊現在要被民進黨提名選直轄市議員的他都不曉得啊他以為說好像把瓶裝水放到那個蘭嶼的低階核廢料的保管廠"},{"start":10104.753,"end":10127.325,"text":"然後就不能喝了有沒有然後後來還跑去國民黨踢館就被國民黨的青年軍一飲有盡他還嚇一跳啊原來可以喝喔你看一個要被提名直轄市議員的執政黨的青年才俊優秀青年他不曉得欸主委你不會覺得很誇張嗎你覺得那個瓶裝水放到蘭嶼可以喝嗎旁邊那出春場旁邊放一個晚上可不可以喝"},{"start":10130.607,"end":10140.517,"text":"這個應該沒問題啦沒問題可是執政黨的要選直轄市議員的人不曉得啊這就是一個很大的問題嘛那像出現這件事情的時候你就可以趁這個機會"},{"start":10142.216,"end":10161.686,"text":"跟大家講說這個其實放在蘭嶼儲存場旁邊是OK的因為我們有什麼保護措施會讓那個低結核廢料輻射不至於跑出來或者是輻射在一定的情況之下它是安全的你就利用這個機會跟大家解釋因為跟大家攸關大家的健康而且是熱門的話題大家就會去看啊不是嗎"},{"start":10162.625,"end":10189.464,"text":"所以類似這樣子是不是更可以達到宣傳的效果然後再來就是這兩天也有個議題要民進黨提名要選台北市長的沈博洋他說要幫他揮打解決電的問題其實揮打一開始他的執行長黃仁勳就一直在講說要用核電為什麼因為產業界最怕缺電那核電是最安全的大家都要買那種沒有碳的電"},{"start":10190.385,"end":10196.447,"text":"但是你不管是光電也好或者是風電也好它不是積載的嘛它供應不穩定但是"},{"start":10197.469,"end":10224.343,"text":"核電又不會有碳又很穩定所以產業界都很希望有核電這是回答黃恩勳講的然後沈博洋講說那個對台北市要幫我們回答解決電的問題那後來被人家罵嘛就說你不是反對核電嗎當時核管法你反對啊也在亂罵啊然後那時候民進黨都是因為我們通過核管法要罷免我們啊大罷免大成功啊我是不知道主委你那時候在院會有沒有看到就是大罷免大成功結果現在用我們通過的法現在要重啟核電了"},{"start":10225.163,"end":10253.298,"text":"那當然人家批評他然後他就舉了一個例子說什麼接水他說這個不同的層次問題啊他講的是變電所電網啊怎麼會跟核電有關呢就像接水管他叫人家接水管那你罵他反對水力發電這不一樣的問題啊你今天如果沒有源頭的電的話你就算有電網也沒用啊今天如果水資源不夠的話你接水管也不會有水啊所以當然我覺得是不同層次但是相關的議題嘛那所以比如說"},{"start":10254.759,"end":10267.759,"text":"這個主委假設你們核安會你們當然是站在核安的角度在處理這件事可是如果你認為你也是政府的一體嘛你認為這個核電廠安全沒問題而且可以解決缺電的問題"},{"start":10269.542,"end":10292.223,"text":"那你們也可以利用你們的網站或是各方面宣傳管道告訴大家其實核電廠是沒有大家想像這麼恐怖的不像那時候在討論核管法的時候那時候很多謠言然後讓大家恐核我覺得你們要適時的做一些利用這個機會做宣傳啊然後那你們今年的編的這個預算大概多少宣傳費有關於"},{"start":10295.834,"end":10310.905,"text":"有關於這個核子能安全管制廚藝核廢或科學推廣等相關政策業務的媒體宣傳製作脫波刊登經費是是變多少28萬28萬那大概是要做什麼"},{"start":10313.083,"end":10326.699,"text":"跟委員報告因為只有28萬通常我們都會跟在一些看等廣告然後介紹核安會到底在做什麼讓人家能夠進一步認識核安會信任核安會因為預算只有28萬你把你們這個"},{"start":10328.661,"end":10354.73,"text":"怎麼宣傳給我一份報告好不好沒問題不是我來看一下你們的成效不是說雖然28案不多啦但也不是說有做就好感覺何寬玥不是很重視這一塊有做就好我有貼文就好但是有沒有人看不出我的重點我覺得既然要做就要達到宣傳效果另外就是科展沒有辦那些科普的展嘛對不對效果怎麼樣因為我們是我們的同仁直接面對面跟民眾溝通每次的效果都還算不錯"},{"start":10356.135,"end":10379.835,"text":"不错是怎么判断?不错是河岸会觉得不错,还是大家觉得不错?不是,我们有请他填问卷调查,然后我们也会回收,我们会统计分析,然后当作下一次进行的参考。整个看起来,民众的反应都还不错。科展可以办,我没有意见,但是我刚刚讲的,针对广大的社会大众做选,毕竟科展还是针对特定人。"},{"start":10380.916,"end":10409.527,"text":"要加強好不好因為這馬上就要面對了如果你在運轉計畫比如說你們說最快是2028嘛那時候馬上就要面對社會有沒有共識的問題這過程當中我覺得就要加強了好 謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員的質詢請主委回座下一位有請非常辛苦高鐵故障霧點現在平安抵達我們教育文化委員會的羅廷偉教委進行詢問"},{"start":10413.766,"end":10426.984,"text":"好謝謝我們召委非常感謝今天大悟點我一大早就搭高鐵到現在才到那感謝召委我們有請我們的主委請陳主委"},{"start":10433.902,"end":10450.134,"text":"好 那有建宇非常感謝趙偉所以第一題我要現在為偏鄉發聲那為什麼要這樣說我覺得4月22呢牙醫師全聯會有提出移動式的牙科我們X光機現在面對這個牙科"},{"start":10450.854,"end":10476.975,"text":"我們的跟監X光機必須設置在獨立的X光室這兩個議題就繼續來救教主委因為這個對於我們偏鄉在做這樣相關的治療也都非常非常的關切所以我認為這個議題是非常重要的那因為上次時間來不及讓主委回答那這個主委是不是可以先簡單回應一下3月9日那一天你跟牙醫師全聯會見面的時候交換了哪些意見"},{"start":10479.075,"end":10490.125,"text":"牙醫師工會是希望敵人在偏鄉能夠使用移動式的手持式的X光機"},{"start":10491.82,"end":10510.933,"text":"第二他也希望在行動不便的特殊病人可以讓牙醫師持手實驗室的X光機在診療室旁邊使用這些的要求這是他們的訴求嘛對對對其實我們一直不斷的在倡議嘛那你的回應呢對我們"},{"start":10512.576,"end":10534.863,"text":"核二会的立场是这样,因为科技进步等等,国际上的标准,我们都会一直在做滚动式检讨。标准会跟国际的组织,像ICRP、IAEA的管制原则,我们一直在做滚动式检讨,确保医护人员民众的服事安全。"},{"start":10535.963,"end":10554.24,"text":"這個我們都關切我想核安會的核心立場這個就是一般牙科間它因為使用頻率高都會去人口密集整間多為開放式空間所以人以裝屬X光勢來做這樣子的一個屏蔽設計但是服安的一個測試合格後才能夠使用嘛"},{"start":10554.56,"end":10575.188,"text":"但是作為常態的廣視基準同時河安會也承認三類特殊的一個情境需要例外的機制所以包括整間行動不便者可以用移動式的X光機整療台施作居家醫療已經有指引部分核准的案例偏鄉醫療人在研議"},{"start":10576.308,"end":10602.26,"text":"我覺得是這個密度是不是更積極的來做國際的一些組織對接了解最後能夠來我們來研議這樣子的一個規範我想要替全國牙醫師反映一個很現實的問題第一線不是不要安全就像今天大霧點我們也不可能要求高鐵你趕快快一點快一點不行安全第一寧願慢到不要永遠不到"},{"start":10603.459,"end":10630.482,"text":"但現在的這些診間的人員也是啊他們不是不要安全啊但是現在的制度設計常常讓有醫療需求的病人用不到適當的牙科X光的診斷會一再強調輻射的安全這個方向我們支持但是問題在於現行管制是否已經跟上了整個實際醫療的情境尤其高齡、失能、偏鄉以及居家醫療的一個巡迴服務的需要嘛"},{"start":10630.902,"end":10659.26,"text":"所以河岸会也承认多元情境的存在才可以例外开放的三种特殊情境那可以有例外但是诊间的特殊需求可在诊疗台时间这样子的外面使用这个移动式的设备居家跟偏乡为何推动多年都还是不普及103年就有居家牙科医疗我们的扶防的钢药"},{"start":10661.396,"end":10682.972,"text":"卻對現在尚無院所申請相對的114年在宅X光來做檢查已核准19家醫療院所請問主委為什麼103年的牙科X光機居家醫療服防鋼要零申請這部分請張組長"},{"start":10686.26,"end":10709.807,"text":"那個委員報告是在跟牙醫全聯會有做一些交流的時候也有提到這個問題那可能在我們的因為我們都有放在衛福部的一個網頁裡頭那他們也希望我們能夠去加以宣導那以及把跟在宅的這個現在我們在推廣其他的在宅X光的這種這個胸腔的檢測能夠把它去一致"},{"start":10713.188,"end":10729.416,"text":"這樣的話他們在推我們的一個推廣那這樣大家就可以有一個更進步那我們後續就會朝這一部分來努力好我要講如果制度設計合理那就不會怎麼會出現103年我們的鋼藥零申請104年另立機制的時候馬上19家就申請"},{"start":10734.398,"end":10755.939,"text":"這個落差馬上就出來嘛同樣是安全的要求有的情境可以推動有的情境13年來一件都申請不出來所以對偏鄉的醫療和安會現在人說正在嚴定對於社區醫療站巡迴醫療的這個扶防設施啊我要請問偏鄉牙科資源不足不是今天才知道為什麼要到現在還在研議的階段"},{"start":10760.622,"end":10786.059,"text":"這邊因為我們其實我們在服防法裡頭有一個通則的其實不同的場域都可以但是他不是針對偏鄉醫療這種類似像剛剛講的社區醫療站跟巡迴點那現在我們就是等於我們有配合衛福部在健保警部他有明定這兩個情境的一個使用規劃的條件所以我們現在就是變成是轉而客製化然後我們會針對這個兩個來去"},{"start":10789.541,"end":10801.772,"text":"第一線牙醫師願意下鄉願意進社區願意巡迴服務主管機關不能停在這樣子的演繹偏鄉是缺法規缺技術標準缺跨部會整合"},{"start":10803.351,"end":10823.236,"text":"還是是缺行政的決心我們看得出來不要再讓第一線的牙醫師明明是想服務病人卻卡在第一個用不到的制度偏鄉看牙卡了這麼久現在看清楚了原來是制度入帳還有在河安會現在目前需要再加油"},{"start":10824.881,"end":10843.486,"text":"文匯非常重視偏鄉醫療以及炎電相關輻射沼澤並請亞維斯工會共同來審閱之中以後還有機會跟衛福部合作只何以暫時的申辦資訊實施協助真的要加油了好不好好加油我們會努力"},{"start":10845.427,"end":10871.89,"text":"今天要跟何安會聊一個議題白話文運動我沒想到要跟你聊這個那主委我知道非常有深度的核能概念講成白話有它的難度但是我希望白話文運動還是可以好好努力剛剛就有委員在討論到底要怎麼樣核知識能夠讓全民都知道那央行從2019年推動白話文運動央行至今效果不錯中研院言之有物"},{"start":10873.132,"end":10876.939,"text":"也做得不错为什么要推白话文我们来举一个例子你听听看"},{"start":10878.935,"end":10881.016,"text":"來 央行說明看一下請問主委"},{"start":10906.345,"end":10910.368,"text":"您覺得央行今年到底有沒有賄損你看完這句話去年有賄損今年沒有今年沒有但是您剛剛質疑一下"},{"start":10922.898,"end":10946.298,"text":"您單看啊單聽字面你只會看到聽到的是未實現評價利益全數抵充那這樣到底是有賄損還是沒有賄損我覺得對民眾來說他在理解上你的專有名詞講完了可能大家聽不懂所以才力求白話要推動白話文運動要讓大家每個人都看得懂所以核安議題也是啊比如核安會"},{"start":10947.389,"end":10970.885,"text":"你的臉書有提到一個他之99M產生器這是你們現在的一個貼文這段話很難懂一般民眾大概也不像主委那麼厲害但何安會想要把這些知識概念告訴國人的心我沒有感受到但是你把這個放上去"},{"start":10972.349,"end":10999.318,"text":"拜託我只是舉例而已有類似的內容是不是能夠讓大家看得懂啊你至少原文放上去後面再一個標示一個簡單的解釋這樣做得到嗎請回答我會努力往這方面上手我不是叫你說這段文就不要貼了沒有原文也很重要但是後面是不是小編註解一下這個是什麼意思"},{"start":11001.185,"end":11026.491,"text":"應該不困難吧這個應該不用再特別還要再編預算吧這也沒問題我想白話語運動很重要真的有時候我們想給民眾知道的知識民眾想知但是他沒辦法取得啊那我可能還要再多一個動作我要再把這個複製貼上然後丟給AI那為什麼你們不自己丟好不好這個部分真的拜託一下"},{"start":11028.168,"end":11034.094,"text":"王宏威委员不在下一位洪孟凯委员洪孟凯委员洪孟凯委员不在"},{"start":11051.414,"end":11080.152,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢詢答結束另有徐欣盈委員提出書面質詢列入公報記錄請相關機關以書面答覆我們繼續進行預算審查案未立於討論需準備協商場地所以我們先休息10分鐘現在休息"},{"start":11086.292,"end":11087.032,"text":"這裏有個大廈的廚房"},{"start":11117.474,"end":11117.774,"text":"好喝喔"},{"start":11128.863,"end":11129.243,"text":"我慢慢點"},{"start":11159.443,"end":11159.683,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":11185.286,"end":11187.789,"text":"那你可以搬進去我搬進去我來直接握你"},{"start":11205.89,"end":11208.351,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":11226.699,"end":11227.72,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":11243.729,"end":11260.026,"text":"謝謝觀賞"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}