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我們現在繼續開會 請醫事人員宣讀本日的議程三 繼續審查行政院韓清審議本院台灣民眾黨黨團委員林思敏等21人 委員葛如君等20人委員林楚英等19人 委員賴慧媛等17人委員李燕秀等19人 委員賴思寶等20人分別擬據虛擬資產服務法草案等8案"},{"start":721.963,"end":742.374,"text":"4.審查本院委員李柏毅等18人5.委員郭國文等17人5.委員林盈瑾等20人5.委員鍾嘉斌等23人分別擬具虛擬資產服務法草案等事案宣讀完畢好謝謝我們今天來關心這個這麼重要的法案很多人都到了謝謝在現場的樂事堡委員吳秉岳委員李坤成委員"},{"start":743.434,"end":757.596,"text":"郭國榮委員 林柱英委員 劉書斌委員 謝謝你們接下來我介紹一下我們的最新的官員我們今晚會的主委 彭金榮 彭主委以及我們的林處長"},{"start":758.658,"end":785.269,"text":"金融市場發展處跟創新處處長林處長我們法事處的處長林處長林志憲林處長我們銀行局的局長童局長歡迎您我們政期局的高局長歡迎您我們檢察局的賴局長歡迎您我們央行的副總裁袁副總裁歡迎您我們外匯局的蔡局長歡迎您我們財政部國庫署的"},{"start":785.669,"end":787.15,"text":"我們行政院原事政總處"},{"start":809.201,"end":830.246,"text":"主編人事處的專委 呂專委 歡迎您內政部警政署的刑事警察局的科長 李科長 歡迎您葛如君委員也到現場好 賴會員也到現場好 我們本日議程安排繼續審查行政院函勤審議本院台灣民眾黨黨環"},{"start":832.574,"end":862.514,"text":"委員林思敏等21人委員葛如君等21人林楚映委員等19人賴慧媛委員等17人李燕瘦委員等19人賴世保委員等20人分別凝聚虛擬資產服務法草案等8案第四審查本院委員李博義等18人委員郭國榮委員17人林玉璟委員等20人鍾嘉斌委員等23人分別凝聚虛擬資產服務法草案等18人"},{"start":863.794,"end":869.196,"text":"有吳秉慧委員等三案有修正動議請議事委員開始宣布修正動議第一案 案有為強化法規轉換期的監理成效及避免業者實務上推動合規作業程序的延宕風險波及消費民眾權益原針對虛擬資產服務法草案第55條文理據修正動議"},{"start":889.067,"end":915.262,"text":"橫評監理品質與產業穩定第55條本法施行前已依洗錢防治法第6條第一項完成洗錢防治登記之虛擬資產服務商或以依主管機關規定提供虛擬資產服務之金融機構應於本法施行後12個月內向主管機關申請許可並於本法施行後21個月內經主管機關許可及發給許可證照藉其未向主管機關申請許可或未經主管機關許可及發給許可證照者不得繼續經營虛擬資產業務"},{"start":917.463,"end":924.852,"text":"前項取得許可證照期限必要時的延長三個月並以一次為限提案人吳秉瑞、郭國文、李坤誠"},{"start":927.028,"end":949.296,"text":"案由二虛擬資產服務法草案第34條修正動議第34條在我國發行穩定幣應由發行人向主管機關申請許可主管機關為前項許可前應會商中央銀行同意申請第一項許可之穩定幣發行人以股份有限公司為限其最低時收資本而由主管機關定資申請第一項許可之發行人資格條件"},{"start":949.736,"end":969.094,"text":"申請程序應檢附書件得發行之穩定幣種類運用場景廢紙許可及其他應遵循事項之辦法由主管機關定之必要時得會商中央銀行虛擬資產服務商同業工會或有關機關之議政修正檢討修正提案人吳秉瑞林楚英代會員李坤誠"},{"start":972.279,"end":999.226,"text":"好 我們現在 對不起還有一樣 案由三 虛擬資產服務法第25條條文修正動議第25條 虛擬資產交易平台商與金融機構兼營虛擬資產交易業務應因主管機關制規定就虛擬資產與穩定幣之上下架 訂定審查標準及審查程序虛擬資產交易平台商與金融機構兼營虛擬資產交易業務應建置防止市場交易不公正 自給自給"},{"start":1000.606,"end":1016.994,"text":"偵測價量異常警示等措施前條之規定於虛擬資產交易平台商與金融機構兼營虛擬資產業務以適用之宣讀完畢提案人 林思明 賴世保 李彥秀宣讀完畢好 謝謝 我們現在開始進行協商"},{"start":1130.678,"end":1131.478,"text":"來謝謝我們開始來剛剛的修正動議"},{"start":1138.612,"end":1167.363,"text":"麻煩邊發下那我們就開始專委好了嗎可以了嗎好那我們現在開始來我們第一張張明總則第32頁桌上大家有一本大本的這一本"},{"start":1168.553,"end":1169.774,"text":"上冊三十二頁總則三十二頁大家有沒有意見好總則沒有意見三十二頁沒有意見通過來第一條三十三頁有沒有意見"},{"start":1190.354,"end":1206.671,"text":"我這是第一條因為這是五商大雅但是把它我的體驗是把它規範更完整然後我請教過央行這邊還有主委這邊是不是可以把我這個它最後倒數第二行"},{"start":1207.652,"end":1217.423,"text":"促進金融科技創新特制定制定文化那個請問再加幾個字請虛擬支撐相關創新運用這樣可以嗎來 主委 主委請"},{"start":1225.081,"end":1240.355,"text":"這裡有關因為主要是這文字我們覺得是可以但是就說那個相關兩個字其實就拿掉就是改成促進虛擬資產創新應用這樣比較簡潔虛擬資產創新應用特制定本法其他人有沒有意見"},{"start":1252.079,"end":1254.081,"text":"在大本剛才上冊的第一條34頁34頁34頁 34頁34頁 34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁34頁"},{"start":1279.359,"end":1298.292,"text":"好來促進不用加的促進金融科技創新及虛擬資產創新應用可以嗎好那我們第一條通過好來就照賴市長的版本修正動議通過來第二條第39頁"},{"start":1309.298,"end":1329.576,"text":"主管機關本法之主管機關為金融三九一這是我的提案那就是說你現在講是本法的主管機關就是金管會那我說實施一年以後或者你要實現一個該會你又不要設一個虛擬支撐管理局當然這個要種種的對這個這個就"},{"start":1335.911,"end":1356.979,"text":"你這個如果給他放進去,就變成要有組織改造,那問題很大不是我們現在財委會可以處理對啊,而且組織改造就不是我們財政委員會可以處理這樣子,我們就先上路,然後一年之後或六個月之後我們再來討論看後面要怎麼去做修正、主改的部分,有沒有需求跟需要來,我請葛如君委員謝謝"},{"start":1358.96,"end":1386.552,"text":"其實大家都是為了虛擬金融產業發展好那本席的版本是有多一個就是說專責單位跟人員辦理的相關事宜因為其實也很感謝卓文派院長還有這個主委那當時都有承諾4月28號說因應金融創新新時代來臨要去細算未來的業務量人員量那支持組織上的檢討那我們也就希望說現在我們看到很多既有的產業"},{"start":1387.552,"end":1416.55,"text":"台股爆大量這個業務在其他部分會增長虛擬資產也可能很快會增長的話人力會不會有不足夠的問題所以我們本席就希望在這裡可不可以明定說主管機關去應設置專責單位但我們並沒有一定要是什麼虛擬資產管理局而是把這樣的一個權限跟專業交還給主管機關這邊去做比較專業持續而且及時能夠回應市場變化的監理量能啦而不是說"},{"start":1417.41,"end":1435.476,"text":"要以後還要人數增加還要再來修法那我想這個其實也對於保障消費者發展產業這個我想做金管會這樣的一個角色我想能夠在母法上面直接明定有這樣子的一個專責單位跟人員至於如何增減資那也就是依照專業判斷跟市場的一個狀況來尊重金管會的決定我們有多這樣一項"},{"start":1441.778,"end":1451.59,"text":"那也看今晚會如果沒有意見或者其他委員如果也覺得可以也許我們可以加進去讓這整個產業可以能夠有更充足的彈性去做發展謝謝這個其實"},{"start":1462.168,"end":1474.725,"text":"請留書兵委員好 謝謝主席那本黨的意見也是在於說因為這是一個新增業務那在我們的第二條的第二項當中特別也是針對說應該"},{"start":1477.088,"end":1494.27,"text":"在裡面的主管機關他並不一定說是要下去增加什麼機構但是他應該有專責的單位跟人員來辦理相關的事業這邊可以強調說他因為有新這個業務上面的應該有對應的單位來去處理那第二個部分就在於說"},{"start":1495.131,"end":1516.409,"text":"主管機關這邊呢我們強調說他應該做一個這個挹注資源補助跟表彰相關學術單位等等是虛擬資產的這個業界當中跟民間團體的這樣的一個功能存在的所以這邊也是提到說他的一個特別要去資助相關的"},{"start":1518.018,"end":1537.611,"text":"利害關西人的團體這個功能也希望能夠在這邊強調出來特別是我剛才是呼應葛國軍委員這邊就是要強調這個新的組織就應該要有一個單位當然不知道重整什麼之類的都應該要清楚地釐清出來 謝謝好 那顧國榮委員等一下再換林思敏委員"},{"start":1538.24,"end":1564.802,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席我想那個剛剛兩位委員發言其實用心良苦都知道最近金管業務蓬勃發展所以外界賦予寄望非常的高然後但是人力的編織卻一直沒有擴編那其實本期老早就遇到這個問題其實最直接了當的方式是把金管會升格是最好的方式那當然好不容易好不容易才多一個什麼處金融科技處"},{"start":1566.003,"end":1580.277,"text":"其實就金融科技出的部分之前所產生的一些有關金融科技的業務當中其實也不斷有一些新的不論是電子支付的部分或者是海外匯兌的部分都是新的一種業務"},{"start":1581.178,"end":1602.488,"text":"沒有辦法一個新的業務就增加一個所謂的專責機構只是說如果整體的話為了整個經管會的功能還有未來為業務擴張的話以人力比例提升的話其實就根本來說其實還要考慮到整體的身格的問題否則的話以單一業務就來做一個專責機構其實我想不是一個真正好要解決的方式好來 林思敏委員"},{"start":1607.325,"end":1628.722,"text":"我想我的修法在第二條也是有第二項就是會促進整個虛擬資產產業的發展主管機關有專責單位及專責人員我想這個條文我個人是有保留的必要當然剛剛郭文維說可能現在或者大家有意見就是說局處的設置現在是組織的規定會不會說現階段可能會有所自愛難行"},{"start":1631.704,"end":1658.505,"text":"那我覺得條文要先行我們條文先把規定下去那至於說未來金管會要怎麼樣來安排那就是我們有一個法律依據他們再去做一個處理啦我的看法是這樣我的建議是這樣子就是能不能讓他們先上路然後我們用附帶意見整個人事的怎麼去調整金管會增加多少億它不是只有針對這個法案亞太金融中心它還有很多事情要去做主改"},{"start":1659.266,"end":1666.464,"text":"整個主改的調整讓他們有一點時間我們做成附帶意見來去做調整我是覺得讓經管會回答一下讓主委來回應一下"},{"start":1668.699,"end":1693.91,"text":"其實非常謝謝各位委員在過去我們在溝通的時候對這很關心因為大家都希望這個市場未來能夠發展起來成為台灣一個很有競爭力的產業所以對我們人力的期望真的非常感謝我想其實在我們接下這個任務的時候過去我們在跟人種溝通的時候他們給我們充分的資源那剛才確實涉及到那個組織改造這不是這部法律所能處理這個會非常複雜"},{"start":1695.891,"end":1708.255,"text":"我們從那個實際的這個狀況來看的話過去單單這個業務人總大概給我們大概30個人力新增的人力那其實我們都在做那其實我覺得剛才那個主席的這個這個意見我們是覺得"},{"start":1711.036,"end":1732.232,"text":"最具彈性其實我們現在其實整個政府也都在針對這個人力來做這樣一個彈性的調整那把各位委員的關切如果用個附帶決議的方式以後我們再跟人總爭取人力的時候今天人總代表也有在這邊真的有需要的時候我覺得他們也會全力來支持一下有聽到我們"},{"start":1738.344,"end":1756.78,"text":"我們後面來用附帶意見我們辦公室寫一個附帶意見結合大家到時候簽名一下這樣子的話就請金管會趕快按照委員們的提案包括我的提案趕快寫一個附帶決議可不可以我們附帶決議給方式給他報告那請金管會寫"},{"start":1762.467,"end":1782.709,"text":"我們第二條沒有意見的 照行政院的意見 短短通過我們回來一下這個確定法案的名稱 虛擬資產服務法 對不起喔有沒有意見 沒有齁 好 那我們就那個法案名稱就確定好 那我們再來第三條第44頁"},{"start":1792.142,"end":1793.443,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1837.351,"end":1856.547,"text":"第三條是有提案第三條是不包括資產第一個是數位型的新台幣、外國貨幣、東吳地區貨幣等等第二是有新增的非同質化代幣就把這個NFT加進來"},{"start":1857.788,"end":1866.47,"text":"那這一部分來講 你要不要解釋一下 這個其實是幫你們忙嘛把規範更周圍一點 你們看怎麼樣來 賴時髦委員的版本在第47頁對 第一項的第二款第47頁 主委 非同質化的代幣"},{"start":1888.237,"end":1890.239,"text":"好 來 劉書斌委員來 請說好 在第"},{"start":1898.321,"end":1923.991,"text":"在第三條的部分呢我們是本來有了一個是第八項的第八項裡面的關鍵的意見領袖這部分因為他在消費金融消費者保護法當中已經有相關的內容了所以我們就這邊就可以拿掉這樣子"},{"start":1936.117,"end":1943.886,"text":"有關跟劉委員提到那個第八款的部分我們是其實這個其實可以在未來我們在金寶法裡面對整個交易行為規範納入"},{"start":1945.785,"end":1972.578,"text":"對對對拿掉同意對對對那我剛剛提到就是有關那個NFT的部分其實我們意思是一樣的啦齁那其實委員這邊多了就是如去解釋那個叫非同質化代幣我覺得這個意思大家都很清楚的話其實我覺得這個可不可以保留原來的條文就是原來按照院版的條文其實對啊對就是其實上講的就是所謂非同質化代幣不在我們的虛擬資產範圍內"},{"start":1974.827,"end":2002.936,"text":"就是這裡面維那版本只是把那個去把它解釋通常這個我們在條文裡面的話大概就是不會不會用一個如啊什麼這些去解釋其實大家都應該清楚在NFT它只要不具有支付跟投資目的的話其實都不是我們的規範的範圍所以這個文字的話我想是不是就維持原版的文字應該不會有爭議啊謝謝好來維持第四"},{"start":2004.656,"end":2017.925,"text":"第三條照行政院版本通過好來接下來第第四條一百零八頁主席"},{"start":2022.837,"end":2037.654,"text":"其實我的版本當然是跟院版是雷同的但是我多加了一個就是在每一年當中要向立法院提出報告主要是我們都知道這是一個新法而且有關於虛擬資產它其實就是一個新創"},{"start":2039.275,"end":2055.704,"text":"的產業那麼包括他現在未來進入市場當中我們在行使的過程當中這個新業務一定在一定的範圍內一定要先做一些通盤的檢討那麼我希望在這樣的狀況底下尤其是依據我們的科技發展與創新實驗條例第18條其實本來主管機關就要針對像這樣新創實驗相關的法規來進行立法院做報告"},{"start":2062.648,"end":2074.556,"text":"所以我會建議說是不是加入定期檢討定期報告的持續修正那麼這會對我們的新法上路上面會更有實際的實際效用也符合現場市場上的需求110110110"},{"start":2083.644,"end":2108.612,"text":"對110頁的最後一句就是主管機關應參佐第一項創新實驗之辦理情況檢討本案及相關金融法規之適妥性病每年提出報告我的是加每年病提出最後一句話來那個法條的部分這樣子加有沒有意見還有林委員好來林思敏委員"},{"start":2110.271,"end":2126.275,"text":"謝謝主席主席我的版本第4條對第4條我也是加了就是要做一個定期的檢討報告據說這個它的期限我是加了就是應該於年度終了後3個月內"},{"start":2128.436,"end":2150.634,"text":"我是加了三個月內啦我想這還是要有一個期限的一個規定以免說這個要做定期報告到什麼時候呢沒有把它詳細的如列出來的話可能這個金管會就是可能就是遙遙無期啦所以我覺得是把日期定下來看金管會認為各位認為可行嗎啦OK這是我的版本以上謝謝"},{"start":2154.576,"end":2167.7,"text":"他要在每年度109年因於年度中了後三個月內向立法院提出檢討報告這個主委你們回答一下來請羅書斌委員"},{"start":2174.465,"end":2196.6,"text":"好 這第四條呢應該是有一些創新實驗的部分那本檔的這邊的內容上面呢 但對於說像沙盒的這個通過者要進行營業這部分我們本來的時間上面呢是有寫到說是六個月內應該跟主管機關申請許可那18個月內經主管機關許可再發給執照"},{"start":2198.021,"end":2220.895,"text":"那在裡面呢我們後來跟就是產業的工會有跟我們做一個溝通之後呢他們是認為說這個虛擬資產服務法如果通過之後呢可能都還有半年期間要大概三到半年期間會有要通過執法的相關執法要去訂定啦所以呢我們現在呢是把那個"},{"start":2221.075,"end":2221.195,"text":"現在在講第四條問題"},{"start":2246.333,"end":2270.271,"text":"對 好 來這條他們意見 賴世保委員大家講完請主委這邊一併回應好 我的提案是請各位看一下在倒數第二項我後面有加幾個字啦就是涉及因為前項的創新實驗就是沙盒這部分啦是主管機關核准辦理期間得不適用本法規定也就是"},{"start":2271.621,"end":2300.066,"text":"有關於這一次的促進普惠金融跟金融科技發展沙盒實驗可以不適用但是涉及到客戶資產管理因為你們要發展資產管理中心洗錢房子、紡織孔相關規定的不再實現也就是涉及客戶的資產管理洗錢房子跟紡織孔的應該可以給他做沙盒實驗我的觀點在這裡"},{"start":2302.642,"end":2327.381,"text":"好 現在集合下來好 大家都歡迎 現在就是集合下來兩個問一個時間點 兩個是一個就是賴氏寶委員這個請主委回應是 謝謝 謝謝各位委員其實各位這個條文是在所有因為我們自從有創新實驗條例我們在所有金融業的作用法都加上一個這樣的條文好 那只是宣示說我們大概都會就是促進那個就是創新實驗"},{"start":2329.002,"end":2358.005,"text":"那其實這裡面呢它的本質是來自於我們創新實驗條例剛剛委員提到比如說創新實驗條例本來就是金管會要針對這所有金融科技含未來這個虛擬資產就必須要按照這個每年年度終了三個月以後再就要提出這個報告而且在網路上揭露所以我們已經在執行這些工作這是我們那個創新實驗條第18條第二項的規定我想這個定跟不定其實都已經是要這樣做了我想這個應該是可以尊重願板"},{"start":2358.726,"end":2380.565,"text":"因為這本來就是在我們的創新條例已經有了大家的關心只是說希望這可能有點重複但我覺得這個他的條文可能規範更完整我們就在這邊處理像林處理委員說每年報告他當然每年報告他就每年三月所以各位注意到三月底的時候我們就會網站上公告我們對這個創新還有這一些的績效都會在那邊做也會提出檢討大概是這樣"},{"start":2381.496,"end":2404.511,"text":"主席那是不是這個部分因為它確實是一個新法上路而且它確實是一個新創又是相關的新的產業那麼是不是可以用附帶決議或是其他的方式那麼至少在先行實行的時候必須要比較有一個完整的檢考報告而不是說只是放上網公告這樣子一個比較所謂是routine性的這樣的一個做法"},{"start":2405.251,"end":2418.576,"text":"好 等一下接下來請葛如君委員再來賴氏寶委員好 謝謝我想大家支持的精神都是一致的但確實沙盒的概念過去在我們台灣執行的時候確實會有一些狀況曾經進入沙盒的業者離開的時候就被抓起來了"},{"start":2424.378,"end":2440.483,"text":"那可是各國其實沙盒的目的是說希望你沙盒進去只要你在這個過程中這個沒有被這個警告或沒有明確的違法理論上他應該出來以後還要能夠繼續做那我想有這樣的一個商業會的報告的目的也是說"},{"start":2441.643,"end":2457.45,"text":"這個報告裡面如果沒有提到這個沙盒的這個業者有什麼樣任何的狀況理論上應該預設他並沒有觸犯相關的這個規範所以這個沙盒的沙是如何真正變成沙子的沙而不是殺人的沙或把公司殺掉的沙這個我想我還是希望"},{"start":2457.99,"end":2482.476,"text":"能夠有一個積極一點的作用當然附帶決議是可以的那我們可以在附帶決議裡面是不是待會跟今晚會一起合作在附帶決議裡面能夠把這個沙盒的精神能夠更讓業者放心因為之前確實發生過進了沙盒出來就被抓起來那我覺得這個其實對業者來講他不敢進去那反而這個業者在劃外之地去營運的機率更高我覺得這不是沙盒的目的以上 謝謝"},{"start":2483.336,"end":2484.077,"text":"主委好像還沒有針對我"},{"start":2500.134,"end":2516.914,"text":"的提問第一個部分或許回答因為我們本黨的意見是在於說你提供了這個沙盒的實驗機會對不對那沙盒實驗可能就是像說他有一個時間那這個時間之內可是他是不是也應該就讓他有機會要去集中變成說是"},{"start":2518.215,"end":2544.163,"text":"變成說是也可以去經營或者是說這個項目可以特別的去讓他的成果是可以被檢驗的啦所以我們本檔才提出來說他應該在他的這個通過實驗通過這個創新實驗者並可以就去進行這個營業只要經過的一個申請然後再一個核可程序這部分是不是可以做進一步的說明還是說你們軍管會對這個部分的是怎麼沙盒的實驗者怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":2546.604,"end":2561.994,"text":"等一下我把第一條第一條剛剛那個時間點的部分附帶意見就請金光會私底下跟然後委員溝通時間點你們可以你們可以的我們用附帶決議把他釐清這個等一下我們回過頭來處理第二點就是麻煩你回應一下賴委員跟劉書斌委員這兩個問題"},{"start":2564.096,"end":2579.335,"text":"剛剛賴委員提到就是說他希望在那個這個合辦的範圍呢但涉及客戶資產保管洗錢房子與返資孔相關規定不再實現其實我們在創新實驗條例已經已經有做這個規範了這個其實但是"},{"start":2582.139,"end":2599.908,"text":"那有人增加了客戶資產保管這是不明確所以我覺得建議還是回到院版去因為這裡面就是他的意思就是說你要做實驗還是有個限度比如說有些呢涉及到比如說這個洗錢防治反滋恐已經規定不可以做你當然也不能做實驗我想這是創新時間條例的精神我想這部分應該這樣"},{"start":2601.915,"end":2627.971,"text":"剛剛劉委員提到就是說創新實驗創新實驗的本質是在於它有法律的障礙就等於它今天是法律所不許但是呢我們覺得它這個東西未來是有可以觀察的可能所以我們就給予一個法律凍結的期間比如說一次一年可以延長半年最常有修法的時候可以延長到三年這是個業別都一樣的這些就是在創新實驗條例很明確的規範"},{"start":2629.972,"end":2650.158,"text":"但是其實這個條文剛剛那個劉委員提到要針對VASP做一個額外的放寬類似像那個執照安全港就說我給你做實驗一定要給你營業執照這會違反整個法規的架構他是應該要申請啊還是要經過申請啊對就是說他申請不格格你們還是不要給他沒有他超級實驗室"},{"start":2651.078,"end":2674.749,"text":"申請以後在那個比如說我給予的一年半的時間甚至最長三年時間本來就可以合法的做這是在法規後面但是一旦過了這個期限以後呢如果法律沒有修法這要經過立法院修法因為他當時就是有法律障礙只是有暫時因為根據創新時間條約凍結那個法律說讓你做做看做完以後如果法律沒有修完你也要必須停止啊"},{"start":2675.43,"end":2681.199,"text":"這個是一個比較大的麻煩這裡如果只針對虛擬資產業者做這樣放寬其實會產生不一致那我想還是回歸到創新實驗條例的整體的規範來處理會比較一致"},{"start":2689.366,"end":2713.938,"text":"必要的時候就是要去修法啦對就要修創新實驗條例對就是就去修那剛才有關那個有關那個如果對於剛剛那個揭露的方式跟檢討報告我是剛才是非常同意幾位委員就是說我們用附帶決議假設剛剛像比如說林淳淳委員說那特別要針對VASP做個額外的那我們就附帶決議說我們把它分開來做揭露也沒有關係我們用附帶決議的方式來處理"},{"start":2715.148,"end":2726.128,"text":"好那這個部分就用附帶意見那請金管會的同仁針對這一個條文的附帶意見跟劉書斌委員做溝通兩個 一個是時間點的部分跟葛如君委員"},{"start":2727.253,"end":2750.579,"text":"跟林楚英委員那至於另外一個附帶意見就跟那個劉淑冰委員對那個就是剛才說的回到創新實驗條例這邊部分我就想說可能要再做一個附帶決議說如果再有必要的時候這邊部分要去修訂好不好創新實驗條例這部分可能就要去修訂附帶意見就是我們隨時要檢討那個部分附帶決議就是他所謂的落地機制怎麼樣去優化"},{"start":2756.24,"end":2782.902,"text":"好 創新實驗就沒有意義啊對 好 那我們這一條就是按照院本通過來 接下來我的部分咧什麼意思我聽不到創新實驗條例本來就有規範你可以申請創新實驗的條例就會排除這些比如說你那個洗房啊 粉質孔啊這些都不能夠實驗就是你不能說我這個先把這個凍結掉是啦 不過這個因為這個"},{"start":2785.064,"end":2813.473,"text":"這個是新的法這麼重要的因為否則外界會以為這個都可以就是說這個不可以去做沙盒那我覺得這裡面把它明確規範這個不要再附帶決議吧這個附帶決議是比較因為這是很嚴肅的問題耶這很嚴肅的問題耶其實剛剛主委講很清楚了其實你不能做本來就不能做嘛而且在創新時間條例也都有講得很清楚了"},{"start":2814.864,"end":2836.916,"text":"因為這個條文主要是源自於創新實驗條例它是回到創新實驗條例裡在這邊其實創新實驗條例已經規定這些就是不可以做創新實驗的因為這是它的底線所以我想說這裡的話就是當然如果是可以做一個比如說其實附帶決議說我們要特別的去對外去說明這件事情我們就可以來做但是這個已經在法律上已經規定了對啊"},{"start":2838.904,"end":2841.287,"text":"他意思是說不用重複對"},{"start":2846.185,"end":2868.219,"text":"我可以說這是不同的mindset我的意思是說如果你說都已經在做了就不用公佈既然都已經做了所以不能讓你有沒有什麼傷大牙為什麼不可以呢這個來講就是推選它的重要性而已嘛這個老師想你們加上去也沒什麼"},{"start":2869.732,"end":2879.381,"text":"因為就在做了嘛 這個沒有違法的東西有沒有被你們本利那我幫他們講一下話啦齁這個法律"},{"start":2880.939,"end":2899,"text":"如果在別的法有明確的規定而是同位階的你說為了要強調為了要加強所以在這裡就再訂一次立法例上沒有這樣的啦我們也不能講說譬如說民法是一個規範那其他的法律我把民法的規範再拿到我的法律裡面再來規定一次沒有人立法例是這樣子"},{"start":2901.673,"end":2925.454,"text":"對啦 立法說明可以啦 放立法說明好不好 立法說明裡面啦他們這樣子會變成以後所有的立法變成其他條文都專輩的條文再抓來這邊放 那個條文你就裝上去 那就會變成一直重複如果你們要效率要這樣 我就勉強接受在立法說明再幫他加強但是但是我強調 吳律師剛剛講的 其實我們很多法律"},{"start":2926.635,"end":2943.071,"text":"有些我們講的比較白一點啦有的是屢單點就屢單點因為這個東西無相大雅你就給它放在那裡這個法有出入可見啦這個東西也不是說沒有啦沒有說一個法規定的其他法不可以定也沒有這樣子啦"},{"start":2946.065,"end":2958.139,"text":"來 那我們這個這第四條就照行政院版本通過剛才賴市長也說得有道理我們修正立法說明好不好我待會請同仁把立法說明修正的內容也好 等一下給賴委員這第四條"},{"start":2960.185,"end":2986.699,"text":"那你這樣可以嗎好那這個部分第四條那我覺得你就在立法說明裡面把那個創新時間條例把它寫得更完整一點因為大家討論都很多就是在裡面的都已經有規範了啦我乾脆就把它寫得更完整一點剛剛那個李委員的第二項那個裡面把它是說明啦對啊在立法說明裡面立法說明的部分把它寫得更清楚因為你們很多次第四條很多是源自於這個創新時間條例我覺得就把它寫寫清楚一點這樣就可以了"},{"start":2987.099,"end":2997.119,"text":"那我們待會把文字再給對 剛才的附帶決議跟立法說明的部分請金管會同仁趕快去做附帶決議就不處理了直接放到立法 原地嗎"},{"start":2999.296,"end":3022.837,"text":"說明就可以了啦就在立法說明你又留下文字說我當初修改的本意還有就是為什麼就是這個這裡面重申各位所關切的那些意見啦好 謝謝來謝謝剛剛賴市長委員的意見那我們就在那個立法說明來去做後續的處理來接下來第五條116頁請大家看116頁"},{"start":3032.498,"end":3049.878,"text":"來大家有沒有意見第五條是大條第五條我是加最後一項啦最後一項就主管金管局金管會這個是一個宣示性的而已啦齁但是我覺得是有意義的啦就積極參與"},{"start":3053.069,"end":3077.414,"text":"FATF全體會議及國際虛擬貨幣監理論壇推動五國納入等效認定或報名單機制並就外國政府對虛擬資產服務上市監理制度進行等效評估認定及等效者公告制這個文字可以改但是我的意思就是"},{"start":3078.374,"end":3091.543,"text":"我們等於法條裡面訂一個因為這是一個宣誓性的代表要積極推動跟國外接軌是這個意思來 讓委員的說明在第119頁來 等一下一併回應其他委員針對這一條還有沒有其他的意見我請主委一併補充否則我們沒這個有在法條上這樣規定嗎"},{"start":3105.37,"end":3133.141,"text":"沒關係我們先我們先看這一條大家還有沒有其他不同的意見然後讓主委回應好不好我們尊重每個委員的意見沒有齁來那就請處委做說明針對賴世保的委員的意見這個跟主委說明齁剛剛那個賴委員提到就是說我們要積極參加那個非TAF齁那其實因為很可惜雖然我們過去我們非常積極的參與他們的活動但我們不是他的會員啦所以實際上"},{"start":3135.362,"end":3155.473,"text":"所以我想說這邊可不可以就是說我們就是用一個附帶決議說我們會積極的參與國際的反洗錢以強化我們的虛擬資產管理啦這樣可不可以用這樣的方式來解決這個問題好來那我們這一條就照行政院版本通過然後再加一個賴詩寶委員的附帶決議來接下來第六條"},{"start":3167.7,"end":3189.178,"text":"第二張張明虛擬資產服務商的部分第123頁針對張明大家有沒有意見沒有意見在行政院版本通過再來有第一節有結名台灣民眾黨林思敏委員葛巫君委員的提案"},{"start":3192.296,"end":3198.52,"text":"許可可以嗎 行政院的意見院本沒有"},{"start":3202.622,"end":3223.2,"text":"那請再請問一下主委就是虛擬資產的衍生性金融服務這一部分他就新農商品的這種發行銷售等等的你們當初是說先有嗎就目前就是說現在因為這是更後面一段的階段的一個業務那這一部分是不是應該要有"},{"start":3225.051,"end":3247.509,"text":"動態性的去檢討那因為這個部分可能是未來對虛擬資產公會的發展或產業發展非常重要的一環是不是如果把這個第七項的部分或是第七款的部分把它拿掉的話是不是我們用一個附帶決議或是相關好像也都有附帶決議要提出來來去想說應該是定期我們現在在處理結名的部分"},{"start":3248.854,"end":3256.55,"text":"那不是在第六條嗎第124結明來我聽一下主委有沒有意見來主委結明的部分可不可以要不要訂結"},{"start":3260.703,"end":3276.013,"text":"其實就是我們現行法制作業現在就比較沒有這樣做我想說這個跟實質沒有太大的影響否則一改整個後面可能整個都可能會要動到所以如果沒有實質的意義有留那個章名大家就懂得這是管因為其實這應該沒有實質的關係否則整個體力都要變"},{"start":3280.336,"end":3304.424,"text":"那所以我們就是現行的法律作業的話應該慢慢就沒有再有結啊這些東西的內容啦那我想這個好啦那個那個主委這樣子說明我想那個我也不堅持啦那個結的部分我們就把它就就不用沒有關係啦謝謝謝謝好 那葛君委員那我們是不是就OK好不予採納那就不予採納來接下來我們回到第6條第124頁"},{"start":3309.953,"end":3328.205,"text":"來請各位委員第六條來來請葛如君委員請葛如君委員劉淑冰委員"},{"start":3330.046,"end":3347.977,"text":"好 那接下來我 好 來我先讓葛如君委員先說明好 謝謝主席我想這一條本席有兩個地方是跟其他委員不一樣的第一個是在前面的第一項的地方就直接寫了在我國境內為他人託管"},{"start":3348.797,"end":3365.256,"text":"那原因是因為我們可以看到行政院的院版裡面其實在說明欄位裡面有說明像比如說第五點所稱之保管或管理用 系指類他人保管那主要就是要區分出後面這一句就是說例如非託管錢包業者"},{"start":3367.158,"end":3382.947,"text":"現在這一點其實是說其實不只是第一項到第四項其實有很多的服務比如說冷錢包這個冷錢包它其實並沒有為人託管可是我們如果這個定義不清楚的話變成冷錢包在台灣"},{"start":3384.148,"end":3405.161,"text":"販售會不會需要登記為虛擬資產的服務商因為他也是在現在院版的描述裡面會不會不小心被漏入進去或者熱錢包軟體錢包像我們阿宅都在用的一些這種APP或者全世界通用的錢包那甚至未來各國政府都有可能推動"},{"start":3406.301,"end":3420.569,"text":"國家級的虛擬貨幣的錢包那這個其實都是屬於非托管的也就是說私藥擁有權都在用戶的手上那這種情況如果我們不在主條文裡面把它區分出來的話會不會到時候冷錢包"},{"start":3421.89,"end":3437.71,"text":"販售沒有辦法在台灣賣反而詐騙集團可以來賣或者是非法的可以合法的反而要登記成為虛擬資產服務方這會不會有點混淆的問題很怕新法上路了以後反而我們本來在使用的東西都不行了"},{"start":3438.251,"end":3459.313,"text":"然後呢本來能夠購買的非託管的服務可以用以前可以用上路之後反而不能用他們變成非法營業這一點是我們所擔憂的所以我們直接在條文的主文裡面希望能夠寫得更清楚那我也希望待會這個金管會這裡可以說明一下是不是確定就是說"},{"start":3460.214,"end":3486.164,"text":"冷錢包的這個業者或者是軟體錢包他這個非託管的形式並不會需要申請這樣子的執照就有點像銀行跟賣保險箱的這兩件事情但我覺得如果不說清楚到時候法律上了各個這個在司法體制上各自解讀不同我覺得可能會造成誤會而且會是一個國際級的大誤會所以這一點希望待會可以再說明一下"},{"start":3486.944,"end":3501.315,"text":"另外還有一點就是我們在衍生性商品的部分我們稍後有提出了原因也是因為目前在傳統的證券期貨本身衍生性商品的交易量其實就蠻大的虛擬資產的服務在各國也是很大"},{"start":3504.938,"end":3521.85,"text":"那境外或者是各個地方對於這樣子的一個商品的需求確實存在那當然這個我自己並不是粉絲但是有一些這樣子的需求存在是的確的那如果我們台灣現在是在法規制度以及產業上"},{"start":3522.791,"end":3543.104,"text":"是實力堅強但是稍嫌落後的情況我們是不是應該要早一點來討論衍生性商品也成為我們的虛擬資產服務競爭力的一環才能夠說別人的賽車已經可以加98無間汽油了我們還只能這個用柴油引擎當然柴油引擎也不錯但我想這個"},{"start":3544.205,"end":3571.208,"text":"追趕或者是超前的速度上我想商品的類別一直是一個非常重要的一個影響就像台灣我們當時推出了ETF哇就很受歡迎這個民眾就可以用這種新的商品的方式來做這個購買或者交易其實這也是競爭力的一環所以我們有把它放進主人裡面但是當然也看一下其他委員的想法我們可以綜合討論謝謝主席好謝謝我接下來請剛是劉淑冰委員"},{"start":3573.732,"end":3588.65,"text":"好謝謝主席第六條呢就兩項的內容吼我們對第一項裡面的第七款吼針對衍生性金融服務啊還有他的金融商品的這個發行跟銷售服務等等的吼"},{"start":3590.472,"end":3601.378,"text":"這裡面因為聽到金管會是說先有目前的這個業務上面先讓他基礎放就是能夠運行就好那這邊衍生性商品是後來後續的滾動是再去檢討不過做衍生性產品它本身是應該是經理資產服務業當中非常重要的一個獲利的一個內容"},{"start":3610.624,"end":3625.135,"text":"那這個希望滾動性檢討的原因是不是可以相對應的就寫一個附帶決議這部分就是說應該定期的 譬如說半年啊再滾動性的就是提交一個報告給給這個台委會來去做後續的一個檢視是這樣子"},{"start":3626.616,"end":3646.69,"text":"那當然這個第一項是這樣子那所以第二項當中會關於說它涉及到的這個種類服務商的這個種類當中就是這個第七項的部分也是衍生性商品虛擬資產的衍生性商品這部分也是應該是同樣去做處理那如果這樣子可以的話我們本席這邊是說就是本黨是覺得這邊就可以拿掉這樣子處理"},{"start":3650.909,"end":3665.382,"text":"這個條文我也有一點不同的小小的意見要補充就是說這個產業未來有競爭力其實衍生性的商品是非常重要的指標我們希望商務之後我們國內的產業界可以跟國外的平台"},{"start":3665.922,"end":3682.572,"text":"有相當的競爭力所以我建議就是說這個部分是不是我也提出附帶決議要求今晚會及時評估市場的狀況跟法理的這個整個程序適時的開放衍生性商品這個部分我建議是用附帶決議的部分但從實務面來說目前包括"},{"start":3685.874,"end":3713.383,"text":"永續合約跟跟單的部分以虛擬資產為基礎的代鈔跟虛擬資產為標的期權相關的商品蓬勃發展但是我們現在國內的業者受限於衍生性商品的業務消費者現在都是利用國外的平台利用國外的平台在做交易所以我想這個部分就是我剛才提出來的希望主委這邊來去做思考看附帶決議有沒有其他不同的想法"},{"start":3713.843,"end":3728.294,"text":"那另外針對剛才葛國勛委員提出來的建議的部分有關於錢包的部分托管跟非托管的部分是不是放在立法說明的部分我們把它說明清楚也請主委做回應"},{"start":3730.576,"end":3744.087,"text":"我想針對剛剛主要是兩大類的問題一個就是國有委員一直很關心就是說會不會有一些像比如說學生或一般民眾以錢包互相轉換或在AI Agent上面購買虛擬幣會不會因為產生這個營業的性質會導致會違反這個規定"},{"start":3749.437,"end":3765.344,"text":"那這裡面的話當然就是那個國軍委員提到就是說那可不可以在前面把託管寫成一個前提但是託管是一個法律上的名詞把它寫上去以後所有的商都要以這為前提其實上會影響他會限縮他的一個範圍那如果"},{"start":3766.104,"end":3782.793,"text":"那個我擔心剛剛的問題確實是如果能夠把它講清楚的話其實我們也有去了解就是說如果你要變成是一個違法的話必須要符合比如說依法經營為長業或以此為業這個條件我想這邊我們在那個司法檢調機關他會有一套的這個做法我想這邊如果說"},{"start":3787.796,"end":3812.002,"text":"可以可以其實可以不用擔心這個問題我想這邊或是在什麼地方把它講清楚但是或是我們我們今天法務部也有代表可以來說明像這種不是以此為業那這部分的話大家不用擔心那這樣就不要在上面放個托管在上面會限縮所有的業務那第二個的話就是有關那個那個衍生商品對我們過去的規劃就是說因為衍生商品"},{"start":3812.742,"end":3838.728,"text":"畢竟我們的Vans不是在台灣是大家剛剛上路那我們也覺得衍生性商品是未來一個很重要的商品但現階段我們是希望能夠逐步的來做那剛剛委員提到就是說委員有一些提些臨時動議就希望我們在一定時間之內能夠提出一個規劃的方案我覺得這我們會來做那可不可以就是我們先維持願板就是我們用附帶決議的方式來針對這個我有看到很多人提出的附帶決議嘛"},{"start":3839.628,"end":3859.725,"text":"其實這幾條包括時間點包括衍生性商品其實可以放在同一個附帶意見裡面就它的時間點就滾動式的檢討的意思都在裡頭那剛才葛君委員那個部分我們就把它放在立法說明裡面後面就是在實行的時候法治單位怎麼去做處理把它"},{"start":3860.906,"end":3887.236,"text":"說明的更清楚好不好我們可以解除您的疑慮來李寬城委員謝謝主席那所以那個有關於這個衍生性的金融服務那現在的金管會決定就是要做那只是說我們不列在這一個法條裡面我們用附帶決議的方式來做處理那大概方向是怎麼樣因為我們有看到這有這個這附帶決議是不是是對不起葛國勇委員也有附帶"},{"start":3888.69,"end":3912.697,"text":"我補充說明一下因為也謝謝剛剛主委的回覆啦其實我想這個要叫這個賣保險箱的去登記為銀行其實本來就是不太可能的那因為我們現在說明欄位的寫法裡面呢就是有把這個非託管錢包分開的我看到的是只有幾乎是只有第四款"},{"start":3913.337,"end":3934.961,"text":"那可是像譬如說第三款虛擬資產的移轉虛擬資產的移轉那冷錢包裡面也都有虛擬資產移轉的功能啊熱錢包裡面有虛擬資產移轉的功能啊那這個部分我想其實主委我相信今晚會意見跟我們也是相對一致的啦所以待會能不能請順民兩位在修正的時候會有空間的時候再把它講清楚一點"},{"start":3935.901,"end":3963.991,"text":"讓司法單位或法務部未來有相關的判定的時候可不可以溝通一下不要不小心上路了結果冷錢包買不到因為是他因為他認定他說不定覺得說我冷錢包賣了我當然要可以移轉所以移轉也是他的業務那這樣子一下子定義起來突然間台灣天下大亂那甚至銀行在做保管的時候也都會出問題這個可不可以麻煩在說明兩位這裡再精細的確認一下謝謝"},{"start":3972.016,"end":3986.09,"text":"我想這個衍生式商品基本上對於整個這一個虛擬貨幣業者的這個部分我在之前在委員會的時候就有不斷強調如果我們單純的很保守的用手續費的方式在一般的評估的話那收益大概15%到20%"},{"start":3987.771,"end":4009.685,"text":"其實很難支撐這個業別或者包括企業、公司、行號能夠穩定經營讓這個產業能夠走向成熟的可能性所以必要性的開放衍生生產品是重要的或許是timing的問題或許是項目的問題所以我把它列舉出來在第六條當中有列舉出來一些相關的衍生生產品的內容"},{"start":4010.746,"end":4032.504,"text":"但是我還是有一些禁止條款在30條的部分後續我們再進行討論那我覺得衍生商品的部分其實真的是有必要性要去思考因為我們體質確實是有所不同那過往的話以日本的例子的話它是通過之後衍生商品的開放大概時隔五年之久但是那個狀況是不一樣我們業界的這個處境跟"},{"start":4034.566,"end":4054.712,"text":"這一個日本是不同的因為我們對於整個海外的交易的部分幾乎無法可管的情況底下多數的這種衍生性商品的採購都已經輪流到海外然後我們國內在創造一個新的產業形態可是真正交易最大的獲利卻又跑到海外收益"},{"start":4055.892,"end":4075.468,"text":"肥水流到外人田所以說你這個產業是不可能壯大的其實搭配的部分是說第一個你要開放的開明點的同時當中你如何去阻絕海外的境外的相關業者來到台灣來爭取相關的客源否則的話台灣會變成是內外交迫"},{"start":4083.314,"end":4103.57,"text":"你一來你把那個member創造起來可是他交易不就跑到外面去你內部沒有交易他有這個交易的需求他就跑到海外去會產生這樣的問題當然風險的部分我非常同意吳秉瑞委員說的這個衍生商品風險在開放的時候要考慮到如何防弊當然我們不能只有考慮心力這是衍生商品其實要請金管會慎重面對謝謝"},{"start":4108.937,"end":4134.198,"text":"這邊有附帶決議是不是請主委看一下有郭國文委員的附帶決議還有我跟葛無軍委員的附帶決議如果可以的話我們就對其實我們剛解釋過了郭委員跟剛才李委員跟葛委員提的這個附帶決議基本上規範是一致我們兩個都遵照辦理"},{"start":4136.383,"end":4138.097,"text":"那就請議事人員宣讀一下這兩個附帶決議"},{"start":4144.85,"end":4151.055,"text":"附帶決議第一案面對我國虛擬資產服務法提高虛擬資產業監理規範對於該產業之業務內容開放卻相對限縮導致產業因發展受限難以彌補不斷提高的法尊成本危及產業之生存為確保我國法規給予業者足夠發展空間請經管會與虛擬資產服務法通過後一年內"},{"start":4170.089,"end":4193.181,"text":"提出開放虛擬資產業提供延伸性虛擬資產商品服務之規劃案不僅讓我國使用者有更多原市場服務同時產業發展健全化提案委員 郭國文 吳秉瑞 李昆城連署人 吳秉瑞 李昆城附帶決議第六案"},{"start":4196.167,"end":4210.127,"text":"修正附帶決議第七案虛擬資產服務法第六條現階段固然系參考防止洗錢金融行動工作組織四十項建議及考量虛擬資產借貸商"},{"start":4213.712,"end":4219.715,"text":"財務風險相對較高而有管理必要故將經營虛擬資產與法定貨幣間之交換業務不同虛擬資產間之交換業務移轉業務 保管業務 承銷業務及借貸業務明文納入管理並保留授權主管機關核定其他虛擬資產服務之與時拘禁空間"},{"start":4235.925,"end":4257.396,"text":"為橫租國際上虛擬資產衍生之金融商品或服務交易以行之有年如永續合約跟單以虛擬資產為基礎所生之類投信投顧業務所為之代鈔以虛擬資產為標的所生之期權等相關商品發展蓬勃相關制度相對成熟並具資產價並具"},{"start":4260.458,"end":4276.419,"text":"價格發現避嫌工具市場流動性等功能原請金融階級管理委員會於本法施行後一年內完成虛擬資產衍生性商品業務相關管理過辦法之草案原理並公開徵詢意見並每年每半年"},{"start":4277.08,"end":4305.11,"text":"定期滾動檢討虛擬資產業務發展現況與遵法程度並與公司協力定期向相關利害關係人如同業工會了解產業實務必及時將虛擬資產衍生之金融商品金融商品之發行或銷售服務或以虛擬資產為標的之衍生性金融商品業務及相關服務納管提案人委員李燕秀葛如軍戴世寶"},{"start":4307.408,"end":4314.655,"text":"劉書斌宣布完畢好那我們第6條第6條"},{"start":4318.544,"end":4345.821,"text":"國務委員我們第六條就照行政院的版本通過以及加上剛才念完了兩個附帶決議的意見加上剛才葛國文委員的關注的那個錢包托管跟肥托托管我們放在立法說明裡面最後的執行面來做補充好謝謝第六條通過不好意思那兩個附帶決議的其實強度有點不太一樣像郭國文委員的提案我們的提案就是這個是提供這一個衍生性虛擬資產商品服務的規劃案"},{"start":4348.343,"end":4360.263,"text":"那但是呢在另外一個版本裡面是說施行一年內要完成這個草案的研擬這個強度是一樣的嗎可以啊可以嗎主委說可以就可以了"},{"start":4362.964,"end":4379.814,"text":"我們只是規劃案而已你這個是草案的原理其實我們就是認為說這個東西我們可以在一年之內就把那個相關的規劃跟草案跟而且中間其實後來有提到說我們當然會公開徵詢意見而且我們會每半年定期檢討這個狀況就把兩個決議把它整合在一起"},{"start":4386.847,"end":4388.208,"text":"我們看第七條第174頁各位有沒有意見"},{"start":4410.006,"end":4435.728,"text":"第七條我的部分我跟主管溝通過意見在第三項我後面加一段話等效國家之境外虛擬資產服務商得依主管機關規定以警話登記方式向我國教育人提供服務不是用第一項之許可要求但您遵守本法細節方式及資訊揭露規定"},{"start":4438.83,"end":4440.071,"text":"我再回應一下等一下等一下這一條葛如軍委員 郭國榮委員"},{"start":4464.878,"end":4491.066,"text":"那會員委員我們照這個順序來來還有誰還有誰沒有了那最後就是我來先請葛如君委員謝謝主席關於這一條的部分本席希望在第一項的部分加入一個最後的段數就是說但符合主管機關依其性質認為不必要者不在此限原因其實是這樣的因為虛擬資產的產業有一個特殊性也就是說它已經運行很長時間了"},{"start":4492.967,"end":4510.16,"text":"中本聰的比特幣2008年又上線許多大型的交易所也在2014年以後其實就已經開始營運不管是本地的或者是國際的所在都有那其實許多民眾啊其實都已經在使用一些大型的虛擬資產交易的平台"},{"start":4510.58,"end":4528.483,"text":"有一些虛擬資產交易的平台也並還沒有登記在我們的這個清單上面就是說這個工會的清單或者是我們的洗房的清單但是他們也是屬於國際可以信任的一個相關的平台那當然我們是很歡迎他們全世界的平台都來台灣"},{"start":4529.664,"end":4556.793,"text":"來申請成為虛擬資產服務商當然很歡迎但是為了避免在法律通過以後這些已經在市場上擁有廣大用戶以及高使用度的虛擬資產的服務商主管機關可能是很歡迎可是因為需要一點時間只是上路了以後他沒有馬上獲得主管機關許可變成我們的民眾已經在使用的平台變成立刻非法持有非法營業有這種吊詭的狀態"},{"start":4558.433,"end":4575.15,"text":"那這個我想不會是我們這樣的一個發展的法令希望看到的所以我們其實有參考證券交易法的規定這個第十四條之四的第一項的一個但書去賦予主管機關一定程度的行政裁量空間依照目前既有的情況彈性來訂定執法的標準"},{"start":4577.492,"end":4596.933,"text":"在魔法通過執法同步生效以後可以避免我們剛剛說的一個空窗期因為我們現在看到的交易所以後說不定會有國家成立的國家級的交易所那這個未來會不會有很多這樣子的一種狀況是沒有辦法這個特定的來處理所以我們是希望能夠給我們的這個"},{"start":4599.896,"end":4610.344,"text":"這個主管機關有一個很明確的特定的一個狀態在特定條件或者特定的一個時期或者是一個特定的一個行政材料的一個狀況去依據現有情況的彈性去能夠這個去"},{"start":4614.728,"end":4639.536,"text":"確保說不會有中斷或者因為這個國家之間的友誼這個相關的國際的合作導致說這個有很多東西受到了什麼樣的影響我們一定要來做什麼樣的處理結果需要一個非常繁複的流程甚至於法無據的情況所以這一點我們在版本的後面有加了一個這樣的一個彈性的空間那以上說明"},{"start":4641.852,"end":4660.846,"text":"接下來請賴會員委員我吧應該是我吧郭國文委員對不起抱歉謝謝我想第7條的第4款的部分有特別強調金融機關得盡主管機關之許可兼營虛擬資產業務為本法之虛擬資產服務商就這個內容來說的話"},{"start":4668.14,"end":4676.803,"text":"我想基本上開放我們既有的傳統金融來經營的話我覺得以銀行的這個信譽我想對這個產業虛擬產業是有所幫助的不過我是在開放的同時當中我們要"},{"start":4686.427,"end":4703.013,"text":"記取過去同樣是金融科技產業的開放模式當中所造成的結果要如何避免重蹈覆轍我覺得是關鍵我舉的是什麼呢也就是說我們當初也是開放電子支付讓銀行業者去兼營"},{"start":4704.373,"end":4722.704,"text":"以至於電子支付的部分有十家業者當中卻是很多的大餅被銀行給經營之後它反而顯得欲振乏力以至於現階段有十家當中就我知道只有一家在賺錢只有一家在賺錢我們會不會同道覆轍我覺得主委應該要想清楚"},{"start":4723.484,"end":4750.334,"text":"就是說在我們開放這個虛擬資產的時候好不容易有些人投入這個金融科技產業熬了十幾年之後結果呢 傳統的金融卻透過資本的力量 整碗飯我想我們不倒見如此吧所以我們若要健全一個金融科技的產業我們今天花了那麼多時間來制定一個專法 虛擬產業結果受惠的卻是傳統的金融我想這個跟我們期待是有所違背的啦"},{"start":4750.714,"end":4772.038,"text":"我想在這邊提醒一下這個主管機關提醒一下主委應該考慮一下如果做一定程度的限制或能夠共存共榮或者能達到異業之間的不同分工能夠創造更好的變季效益這是我覺得立這個專法才有它的意義的存在以上"},{"start":4775.442,"end":4792.974,"text":"我想針對第七條悉尼資產服務商應該依前條的第二項的一個規定那特別跟主委做一個建議啦就是境外的悉尼資產服務商在中華民國應該設立的一個分支機構那我們給他那個"},{"start":4793.855,"end":4807.002,"text":"許可證以外那我們要建立一個許可的一個制度還有快速審查的一個機制那我們並且希望就是鼓勵那個境外虛擬的一個資產的服務商他在我們的境內應該要設計"},{"start":4808.843,"end":4826.67,"text":"那個設立分支的一個機構那當然金融機構他應該要經過主管機關的一個許可那所以在這裡針對第四項前四項心理資產服務商跟分機構所受到的我們主管"},{"start":4827.75,"end":4849.044,"text":"機關的一個約束跟一個法規上的一個限制那主管機關應該定期的揭露並及時的更新取得CQR還有虛擬資產服務商的一個名單跟業務交易的一個統計的一個資訊這個是一個最基本的一個要求跟那個我們主委做這樣的一個建議謝謝"},{"start":4850.765,"end":4878.974,"text":"好最後我的意見我做一下表達就是說我們一定要在這個法修正過程當中我們也一定要把境外的服務商納入管理我覺得方向上本來就是我們修法的重要的目的但是納回來納管之後我們怎麼樣讓我們台灣的民眾資產要移回來才有誘因因為同一家公司台灣是分公司母公司在國外我們有什麼樣的習慣性好的誘因讓他回來這才是我們"},{"start":4880.135,"end":4896.235,"text":"把它納入管理我們洗錢防治法也可以看得到這是最主要的精神所以到時候主委可能也要請你補充說明一下就是說未來我們怎麼樣嚴格要求監管有什麼樣的監管條件要設置出來那如果"},{"start":4897.136,"end":4916.745,"text":"沒有監管的話未來是不是可以廢止他的許可證等等就是說我們納入管理怎麼樣去做後續的處理如果沒有遵照這樣的方向的話我們有什麼樣的工具可以去處理這樣子才可以保障我們國人的權益這個部分也請主委一併做說明"},{"start":4918.578,"end":4944.766,"text":"第一個就是如何鼓勵他也要回來就是要落地然後使用率的部分我們有什麼樣的誘因因為兩個平台嘛在國外他在台灣是分公司我們怎麼樣有誘因讓國人的使用習慣可以回來那第二個如何要讓他們納入監管我們監理的條件怎麼樣去加強如果做不到是不是就廢止這樣才能保障他的權益主委回答請我補充兩句好不好"},{"start":4945.186,"end":4970.358,"text":"所以我剛剛講的是說傳統的金融業者他是採取堅硬的方式可是這些交易所是用鑽引的方式鑽引也就是說他歷經了很久的時間好不容易慢慢熬出來其實就整個這個產業的公平性原則上不應該讓整個鑽引業者當中因為在資本的力量的一個差距而被類並吞的方式被奪走原來既有的市場這是一個很重要關鍵"},{"start":4971.178,"end":4989.869,"text":"另外一個部分就我們這個業別的分工來說還有一個保管商的部分嘛就保管商的部分其實讓銀行來做的話我想那credit更大對啊我覺得這個credit更大也許maybe你可以先用這個部分也許是一個比較好的方法就看你們裡頭內部的政策考量"},{"start":4993.309,"end":5011.605,"text":"請主委回應剛剛有大概六個意見那我就逐一按照那個順序回應那第一個是賴委員提到就是說可不可以在未來在審核境外這個VASP之後創造一個等效國家以及做一些差異化的一些的"},{"start":5012.586,"end":5037.95,"text":"准入的要求啦因為我們有看這種等效國家的定義它的概念應該是來自於比如說我們有加入一個國際組織大家要共通的高標準的監理標準的時候我們在一些准入的要求可以做一些差異不過在我們這個虛擬資產現在我們還沒有看到這個內容所以可不可以就是說這個東西未來我們是不是可以把它納入一個附帶決議說我們未來再來研議這樣的一個做法"},{"start":5041.491,"end":5057.712,"text":"那不知道這個委員不知道是不是可以用這種方式因為這畢竟現階段我們等於說因為這樣第一個我們對等效國家的定義國際經驗也沒有那我們也要看其他國家也陸續在立法這立法的過程當中我們才知道它的標準是怎麼樣"},{"start":5058.673,"end":5080.1,"text":"還有剛才我也順便提一下剛才納惠委員有提到就是說我們對那個境外的來審核是不是要有一些分級管理我想就一併用附帶決議我們納入研議這樣一個方式那這樣可不可以這樣來做這是第一個回應那第二個葛國軍委員提到他特別提到說可不可以有個這個但書的規定因為我們現在其實"},{"start":5080.62,"end":5103.28,"text":"特許事業都有一個條件就是非經許可不得經營這是基本特許事業的基本的條件剛剛葛國勳委員提到就是說現在有些現況的部分然後可不可以有一些例外的規定給一個彈性那其實我們覺得在過去裡面我們大部分的法規即便這樣的話也不會這樣寫寫這樣的方式我們可能用那個"},{"start":5104.361,"end":5129.9,"text":"未來如果這樣真的大家討論一下是可不可以用儲書的方式來寫不要用淡書的方式來寫這個儲書的方式就是說應該是這樣講就是未經許可發給許可證者儲經主管機關依其業務性質另有規定者外不得經營各該業務嘛用儲書是比較符合這個體力那再來就是有關那個"},{"start":5131.929,"end":5136.55,"text":"再來第三個部分是抱歉版本很多"},{"start":5154.093,"end":5176.275,"text":"再郭委員提到就是說金融機構因為我們這裡面主要是要解決其實我們現在金融機構已經在做保管的示範所以保管的部分這個部分如果他沒有取得因為未來這個保管商就已經是特許事業所以必須我們現在做法是根據銀行法第3條第22款的規定來做那這裡的話我們就直接放在這邊的話主要就在這裡"},{"start":5177.276,"end":5203.629,"text":"比如說未來這個金融業那很多其實Vespa業者他也表達他的關切說金融業會不會財大這個企業很大然後透過這樣方式把它併購掉我想這個其實像市場上面這個有他的一些的公平競爭的一個競爭的要件我們就不宜在這邊做一個限制剛剛委員只是提醒說我們要再維持一個公平的一個環境這我們會來注意"},{"start":5205.455,"end":5232.109,"text":"對對對當然當然對這個部分再來就是說剛才委員也提到那個電資跟這個的差異其實我覺得這還是有所差異啦那虛擬資產過去很多業者在他經過很長的時間投入那個其他的技術的層次其實是很高那這個部分呢未來其實透過金融機構的合作其實是一個互相增加彼此信賴擴張市場一個很重要的過程"},{"start":5232.569,"end":5254.852,"text":"那我覺得在這部分我應該提到就是說注意到市場公平競爭的問題我們在未來在核准的這個業務性性的範圍我們會來注意這件事情那再來還有提到就是我們對境外業者剛才那個昭偉有提到就是說我們對這分公司當然我們這個法通過以後這些境外的這些公司當然是要落地服務對不對"},{"start":5256.033,"end":5277.655,"text":"如果沒有落地服務的話我們會參考國際的經驗然後就是來進行這個逐步的管制嘛這個部分國際上已經很多經驗我們一定希望納管落地包括他們的用戶也要轉回來喔對 那個再來就是說我們其他國家的經驗對於他既有的境外客戶怎麼跟他落地以後境內客戶做整合我們會參考其他國家的經驗"},{"start":5278.436,"end":5302.474,"text":"那我有看到這裡也有一個附帶決議這部分也是針對這個部分我們會來處理剛才特別提到就是當他落地以後未來經營不適格要退場我想這個所有的辦法裡面都有他退場撤照的相關的規定這部分應該都有那這裡面的話我想說對於境外分支機構當我們這個法實施以後如何落地監管以及如何"},{"start":5304.114,"end":5317.101,"text":"這個區隔許可跟未許可的這個這個標的我想有委員提那個附帶結緣我們待會再針對這個來做討論大概是以上我大概做以上的回應這樣我強調兩大重點啦"},{"start":5324.861,"end":5341.638,"text":"我們注意一下就是國外的到國內來境外落地他的相關的規定要跟國內完全一樣好不好要完全一樣這個一定要完全一樣這是第一點第二點"},{"start":5342.879,"end":5358.292,"text":"我們都知道今天有這個虛擬貨幣的這個VASP這個大家都了解我們那個金融沙盒過去做的都不怎麼樣你看純網路銀行做的踢踢踏踏的這個要賺錢不容易啊什麼之類的"},{"start":5359.453,"end":5376.334,"text":"為什麼這樣子 因為金管會的mindset裡面還是以銀行為主如果以銀行為主 銀行也可以做網路銀行 網路銀行要做的真不可能不要忘了我們金融社會都是什麼 要以科技業為主"},{"start":5377.555,"end":5394.505,"text":"然後金融業為輔可是你到這裡來最後都是金融業為主銀行為主然後科技也為輔那這樣子的話科技都被吃掉了因為金融業很多你要人我要人什麼之類的所以我最想說我們具體來講說我們怎麼樣能夠讓說我們修這個法真的能夠讓科技業FinTech"},{"start":5402.029,"end":5412.295,"text":"整個重點就是我們希望科技業能夠長大他能夠做一些金融業的東西而不是說坐老半天還是要替銀行打工現在的問題就在這裡因為你只要開放銀行可以做網路銀行這純網路銀行就被你壓"},{"start":5422.529,"end":5446.562,"text":"同樣的,如果你把Facebook開放以後說銀行業也可以來主導科技業一般來講規模都小小的可是我們就是鼓勵它嘛而且全世界來講的話,這個你可以看獨獨在台灣,我們還是以銀行為主以銀行為主的話,你就變成是他們就很能長大物價量的大的重點"},{"start":5452.713,"end":5478.778,"text":"謝謝戴維我簡單回應一下第一個其實金融科技它如果說它是要經營金融特許事業的話還是會回到我們金融業的規範這個部分並不會因為它是科技業而免除除非它做的不是我們的金融特許事業我想這部分因為所有金融科技業者應該都有這個體認如果它只是提供技術的話不涉及到業務的推動那沒有問題"},{"start":5480.151,"end":5509.394,"text":"那第一個問題剛剛提到就是說境外的資產境外的VASP業者要落地因為我們只有一套法規當然是同一標準這個不會有對只是說剛才委員有提到說我們需不需要對未來等效國家在准入的時候有沒有什麼一些的額外我們來研議嗎還有就是有沒有什麼差別式的這樣那個管理模式我們可以來研議這部分沒問題但是標準都是一樣的那剛才就是對於科技業跟金融業之間最後還是如果"},{"start":5510.094,"end":5517.042,"text":"要看他涉及到的是特許事業的話那標準都是一樣的我們也會剛剛也根據郭委員我們會兼顧這個整個產業的發展在審核的時候會橫頻來考慮以上"},{"start":5522.662,"end":5550.375,"text":"後續執法的部分你們在訂的時候把這些精神都考量進去包括剛才提到的那個境外商落地的部分怎麼去把國外的帳戶都轉回來這個部分再補充賴清我表達一下意見這個金融創新當然很重要然後這個現在虛擬資產扶法這也很重要大家都想走得很快但是知道嗎金融的事情它本來就需要大資本"},{"start":5551.229,"end":5571.074,"text":"因為它的穩定 穩定是非常重要的今天我們做的工作 我做一個比喻就是走鋼索第一件事 第二件事 四件事我們一方面在注重說我們要創新業務讓大家有這個營業的空間一方面要注意到這要保護到我們的消費者還有我們整個台灣的金融環"},{"start":5572.054,"end":5591.168,"text":"穩定的環境所以有大資本來做這個工作這是應該的因為這是特許行業我們也不是希望說大家湊個一點點小錢那大家就來玩那這樣就會變成不穩定所以這個是不同的價值思考在裡面我覺得我們大家同仁在強調"},{"start":5592.589,"end":5609.155,"text":"要創新要革新要快速這很重要但是同時也要兼顧到穩健如何能夠確保這個行業的對我們這個社會將來在金融環境裡面所以我認為給銀行做有什麼錯呢就是大資本"},{"start":5615.66,"end":5635.867,"text":"我就簡單講啦,因為其實這個法剛上路,那大家對虛擬資產我覺得也要有點建立信心我覺得讓這個金融機構他們來做,那大家對金融機構有信心因為都受到你們高度的監管所以我是覺得就按照這個院本的通過就可以"},{"start":5636.627,"end":5650.878,"text":"按照院版通過但是我想大家的意見在創新跟監理如何去做平衡最好的拿捏讓主委他們自己在未來執法庭那個境外的就另外在附帶決議所立對就是這樣子來我們看一下附帶決議剛才幾個可以嗎"},{"start":5665.796,"end":5668.325,"text":"負擔決議是不是念一下來負擔決議念一下"},{"start":5674.847,"end":5698.752,"text":"附带决议第二案就现行我国制度面对尚未于我国落地之虚拟资产业者虽规范不得于台湾从事业务招揽等行为却难以防范业者透过宣传自家品牌间接于我国吸引用户流往境外平台为避免未落地之境外业者侵蚀我国虚拟资产产业发展"},{"start":5699.312,"end":5724.637,"text":"同時加強對於我國使用者的權益保障以及提升軍外業者來台落地動機請金管會參考日本韓國等鄰近國家政策後加強我國對於境外平台的限制與阻絕措施包括禁止銀行業與電子支付業者提供支付服務下架應用程式等以健全我國虛擬資產提案人 委員郭國文 連署人委員吳秉瑞 李坤成"},{"start":5726.587,"end":5755.53,"text":"附帶決議第三案查近年不乏出現境外虛擬資產服務商倒閉資產遭凍結或駭客攻擊等情勢亦或成為洗錢防治或詐騙金流調查死角以致受害民眾陷入求償無門之窘境是為保障虛擬資產交易人權益及增進交易市場管理避免境外虛擬資產服務商淪為監理避風港原請金融監督管理委員會與依法"},{"start":5756.551,"end":5774.94,"text":"审核境外虚拟资产服务商与我国成立分公司或设置分支机构时要求该境外虚拟资产服务商亦应符合我国防治洗钱、指控及诈骗等规范并积极处其将原有之我国国人客户"},{"start":5776.121,"end":5795.039,"text":"引導至境內成立之分公司或設置之分支機構例如採取以若干比例之我國國人客戶應於一定期間內移轉並使用於境內成立之分公司或設置之分支機構未條件之有付款許可"},{"start":5795.94,"end":5820.31,"text":"違反者得廢紙或其廢紙期許可等監理手段必完善國人保全域保障提案人李燕秀委員連署人委員林思敏賴思寶羅明才好來那我們第七條就照行政院版本通過加兩個附帶決議來我們現在看第八條第194頁"},{"start":5825.706,"end":5844.314,"text":"沒有意見我們就照行政院版本通過院版通過第9條看一下第9條209頁沒有意見就照院版通過第10條大家有沒有意見好第10"},{"start":5846.735,"end":5860.928,"text":"第八條照願滿通過啦第九條照願滿通過第十條也照願滿通過來 我們看一下第十一條來 第十一條第十一條可能有一些人第228頁228頁228"},{"start":5874.806,"end":5895.638,"text":"欸 等一下 第八領你有意見是不是來 葛如君委員來 你是第幾條來來來來 麥克風沒電來 那個我們 社會會的同仁來 那一支麥克風沒電幫我們關一下"},{"start":5898.359,"end":5922.605,"text":"不好意思喔 剛剛麥克風沒電了找不到沒電了 這個稍微跳過了這個第八條其實只有一個很小的地方其實就是依據第七條剛剛的這個除書的部分一樣的意思啦就是我就不贅述啦 因為我已經往後跳了那只是說重點就是避免一些空窗期或者變成說其實已經是OK的可是卻因為沒有一個這個彈性突然變成非法營業"},{"start":5923.445,"end":5949.77,"text":"所以這個一樣也是參考這個溜達法的規定給主管機關一個裁量空間那基本上文字如果主管機關這裡主委這邊或者是機關會這裡OK的話第七條加入的這個儲書也是可以把它放在第八條的前面就是儲服和主管機關依其性質認為不必要者不在此限這個其實就是因應產業快速的發展去有一個這樣的一個儲書或儲外的條款"},{"start":5950.43,"end":5958.118,"text":"其實也會對整個消費者的保護跟產業的發展是會有幫助的那我想是可以跟第七條是用一樣的文字就好了謝謝"},{"start":5959.624,"end":5984.061,"text":"來 請金管會第七條跟第八條第八條比照第七條的加一個儲書來 金管會的意見 主委對 就按照那個儲書來改好 那就按第八條再加 再加兩個字齁按照葛如燻委員的意見通過來 第八條第八條加兩個字齁來 那就我們現在回到第十一條第十一條大家有沒有意見來來"},{"start":5991.496,"end":6012.282,"text":"11條這個最後一項啦來第8條加除書兩個字主委剛剛說可以除例外情形可以可以可以"},{"start":6015.734,"end":6037.143,"text":"第八條就是虛擬資產服務商除主管機關令有規定者外因就是像不像第八條先把它處理完唸一次"},{"start":6058.249,"end":6066.818,"text":"第八條第一項修正為虛擬資產服務商除主管機關另有規定者外因依主管機關核准之業務核准之"},{"start":6071.836,"end":6096.634,"text":"應依主管機關核准之業務範圍經營業務新增虛擬資產業務及經營其他業務應經主管機關核准宣布完畢我們回到第11條第11條的最後一項最後一項這個行政辦公室有講說"},{"start":6098.499,"end":6108.121,"text":"也有具備傾向規則條件是不可以充當虛擬這個虛擬資產服務上的負責任業務人以充當的主管機關結論就是對以上面的條件對11條對啊11條"},{"start":6120.28,"end":6142.888,"text":"11條沒有意見我講3條我講3條來我們一條一條來等一下我先把第11條處理完好不好來第11條有沒有意見沒有葛珠瑩你是第11條嗎我們先把第11條處理完好不好因為我第7條還要再做一下調整第11條是最低資本額這邊嗎"},{"start":6146.327,"end":6172.972,"text":"對 這個地方本席在第二項有增訂文字就是希望主管機關對於不同業務內容的服務商有一個彈性的管理空間而不是一套標準全部適用因為現在的虛擬資產服務商有的是做交易平台有的是做交換有的有專業的保管有的只專做移轉的服務不同業務涉及的資金規模風險程度確實對市場造成的影響風險本來就不太一樣所以其實本席也斟酌到說"},{"start":6175.192,"end":6203.379,"text":"這個虛擬資產服務真的是一個非常大的一個機會業態也有非常多種所以單一的這個去訂定的話這個很可能會不一定是適合的所以希望主管機關依照不同業務類別跟業務範圍去訂定營業保證金或者等等的一些設定那畢竟如果今天假設這個特定的只做特定服務的規模比較小風險比較低的業者譬如說像這個特定的一些相關的服務"},{"start":6204.259,"end":6233.703,"text":"結果卻被要求負擔比較高這個像借貸商或者是這個要發行穩定幣一樣的保證金那這樣其實沒有必要而且反而提高產業的競爭空間反而讓境外的業者或其他沒有合法落地的反而他競爭能力比較強所以我想這個本條的方向就一樣就是說希望監理跟食物還有業務的風險能夠做到一個最好的平衡彈性的一個空間而不是大小業者是用同一套標準"},{"start":6233.763,"end":6250.66,"text":"高準的處理啦所以希望看是不是主管機關這邊可以看我們在第二項的部分有增訂一個文字幾個字而已齊靜耳由主管機關審酌類別業務範圍分別定資那這個我想其他委員應該會支持因為這是異業監管謝謝"},{"start":6252.842,"end":6280.704,"text":"我是這樣子啦我們支持這個理念啦但是建議齁這個不用改這個條文的本身因為本來就應該這樣做是不是把這個寫在立法裡有理念啦那這樣子一樣是有達到這樣的意思但是不用寫在法條的本文啦因為其實主管機關他們在管理這些事情的時候本來就會根據不同的業務範圍去制定你應該的資本額不可能"},{"start":6282.321,"end":6308.369,"text":"不一樣的業務然後資本也是相同的不太可能是這個樣子那我是覺得如果你不放心的話那就把它放到立法理由裡面去寫清楚這樣好不好其實這個條文我也有版本啦就是我的建議其實也是應該有不同業務也應該有不同的標準不是一致那可以在立法的精神裡面做一下說明裡面一起處理好不好 葛瑞君我們兩個的版本可不可以一起這樣做處理"},{"start":6309.448,"end":6324.467,"text":"那個主席民主黨版本也是這樣子就是說因為虛擬資產的類別這邊我們現在已經在前面的條文糾正過了就是大概有七到八類別那這波的確他們會有一些不同的差異如果小型的"},{"start":6325.528,"end":6340.627,"text":"某一種的類型的話它的成本是不一樣的但是如果你沒有在條文當中把它明定它的資金包括它的營運的金額等等範圍等等的去做應該沒有做一個"},{"start":6341.508,"end":6359.028,"text":"分別類別的這樣的規範的話這樣會形成的我覺得就會形成一個不盡好的不盡公平的一個競爭發展狀況所以這邊我們還是堅決的我覺得是應該要把它用個別類別也是根據你之前的前面的大概是第"},{"start":6360.029,"end":6374.125,"text":"第第第六條的內容嗎所以我覺得是合理的好謝謝劉淑敏我們已經建議說說後面草案立法說明一直來去做補充說明來各位就那個郭國麟委員他剛先舉手來來郭委員"},{"start":6375.326,"end":6402.217,"text":"各位我先第一次發言我講一下我想各位剛剛的說法透過一個分級還有不同業別的概念來做一些保證金一個門檻的一個規範基本上出發點我是認同的但是是不是要把每一個東西列在這個門法之中我覺得真的要慎重那你說明也可以執法也可以其實不同的方式都可以達到這個效果我想這個目的就達到了門法的條文其實不用規範得太複雜"},{"start":6406.325,"end":6432.215,"text":"謝謝主席我想也謝謝委員非常多委員都支持這個精神但如果我們只依精神來立法的話那我想我們虛擬資產服務法只要兩句話就虛擬資產服務這個大有潛力金管會一定會這個認真管理我覺得只用精神的話確實我們還是希望它有一定的文字的明確性不過這裡是不是還是尊重金管會這裡能不能給他們一個回應的機會也許在實務上"},{"start":6433.155,"end":6458.638,"text":"有這樣子的一個相關文字也許不用這麼多個字能不能給金管會在執行的時候具體的訊息也比較明確這樣 謝謝來 請主委做說明是 謝謝其實各位委員剛剛提到就是我們現在實務的做法我們一定會考慮到這個只是說會隨著時間的改變你的考慮因素會變所以我們過去所有的資本和生意除非非常特別一定就是由主管居然定制這種廣泛式的說明"},{"start":6459.278,"end":6474.05,"text":"所以說他資本人的決定會在執法裡面根據不同的業別來做那我覺得各位委員的這個關切我覺得可以在立法說明裡面我們來補強說明說未來這個資金有主管之間定資會省著其種類以及業務範圍以及經濟發展狀況來橫著當時來訂定資隨時調整"},{"start":6481.175,"end":6503.963,"text":"但是這樣寫在那個文字會寫在立法說明裡面大家就很清楚這個其實對我們來講也是有拘束力只是說這實務上本來就這樣做因為現在寫的接下來又變化也不太一致我覺得這樣就可以整合大家的意見了好謝謝主委的說明因為我們都不會再一直在這個位置上精神上我們把精神把它納進來好那第11條我們就按照院版通過我再回來第7條我們剛才第7條第一項來"},{"start":6510.717,"end":6537.945,"text":"第七條第一項修正為虛擬資產服務商應依前條第二項規定種類分別取得主管機關之許可及發給許可證書證照使得營業未經許可及發給許可證照者除主管機關另有規定者外不得經營各該虛擬資產業務宣讀完畢其餘照行政院版本"},{"start":6539.602,"end":6555.097,"text":"好這是第七條來接下來我們看郭同仁我們看第十二條兩百四十頁來有好幾個人有提案十二條我就是提到在最後一項因為這是你們"},{"start":6556.417,"end":6570.196,"text":"以為行政院本本沒有想到的我是把它加進來的曾經因為虛擬資產詐欺洗錢後無法奔放接受刑事追訴確定者"},{"start":6572.018,"end":6587.904,"text":"莊生不得擔任虛擬資產服務上司負責任其擔任董事監察人質 主管機關應命其且任原來主委跟我溝通這個莊生可能有危險之餘 我把莊生拿掉"},{"start":6588.644,"end":6612.054,"text":"我把江山拿掉就是因為你這裡整個第12條都只是一個說要具備什麼條件具備什麼條件可是對於曾經因為經營VASP相關的業務然後被判刑確定者我們沒有去規範我覺得這一條我覺得是有意義的"},{"start":6612.614,"end":6631.446,"text":"好 我把裝飾拿掉 這樣就沒有違憲的東西就是他只要判刑確定就不可以擔任這個券商的負責人不是 那個服務商的負責人如果已經擔任了就截止他因為他已經確定了 已經判刑了我們就不應該再讓他來做"},{"start":6633.127,"end":6642.876,"text":"我希望這條能夠入在母法因為你的部分只是一個消極條件我要積極的一個防避了就這樣子"},{"start":6648.588,"end":6667.419,"text":"謝謝主席我想關於第12條本席有新增第三項主要是希望在建立專業資格制度的同時兼顧現行從業人員的工作權益跟制度的銜接就像本席剛剛所提過的就是本法施行之前其實我們台灣在這個虛擬資產服務法是處在一個"},{"start":6668.679,"end":6690.059,"text":"後發希望先制的狀況那所以其實已經有許多的業務人員在從事虛擬資產的產業工作當然我們全心感謝金管會在過程當中一路的扶植從自律到有工會但是現在已經有這麼多的虛擬資產產業工作的業務人員過去未必有完整統一的資格要求那如果法律一通過"},{"start":6690.76,"end":6718.599,"text":"就立刻要求所有人來全面符合新的資格對業界現場來說可能會造成過大的衝擊反而變成說你也沒過他也沒過那詐騙集團也可以說我跟他一樣我有什麼不一樣呢所以我想這本條希望能夠給予既有從業人員兩年的緩衝期間那到底細節怎麼樣我們還可以討論就是說讓大家有時間去完成相關資格的條件如果經過合理的緩衝跟延展以後仍然沒有辦法取得法定資格的"},{"start":6719.52,"end":6734.6,"text":"主管機關當然還是可以依法於解認去避免影響整理市場的專業性跟消費者的權益所以本條本席的修改方向有增加了一個第三項的部分在制度建立產業使用以及存貨源源的權益之間去做一個比較合理的過渡安排"},{"start":6735.02,"end":6754.478,"text":"就有一個時間就是說通過後兩年內那如果這個時間沒有講清楚造成恐慌潮結果台灣超棒的優秀的人才立刻帶槍投靠到其他境外的或其他沒有落地的交易所那還得了這個我想是不是能夠加入到母法裡面謝謝主席"},{"start":6762.759,"end":6782.394,"text":"主席我想我這個對隔離軍委員的第三項的修正我深表贊同只是說那個期限的規定已經受到雇用的業務人員他到底是本法通過後隔離軍委員該主張是兩年那我的版本是六個月"},{"start":6783.755,"end":6799.279,"text":"那到底是軍管會這邊的意見是到底期限多久比較合適軍管會會不會那個回應一下我的版本是六個月啦是要折中還是說一年還是怎麼樣請主委那個回應一下"},{"start":6813.942,"end":6828.894,"text":"一個要兩年一個要六個月要你回應一下請主委先回應這個其實我們在做這個新舊制度銜接的時候本來就會考慮這個問題因為這個信賴保護就是說你現在來講還就是說這部分這個期間部分我們過去看到是大概六個月因為我看到過去的版本"},{"start":6829.554,"end":6850.815,"text":"因為這個其實這不宜過久啦坦白講不宜過久那其實如果這樣問我是覺得可以定在執法裡面先以六個月為一個前提啦那當然比如說如果要加一個就是如果有特殊情況這個可以再延長一個六個月我想還是是不是維持這樣一個"},{"start":6851.576,"end":6879.016,"text":"精神因為畢竟這個行業要讓人信任就我覺得這個從現在開始討論已經很久了我想這部分我們可以這樣來處理就是我們過去像這種的話因為我們這法律隔了幾年以後看到有這個期限很奇怪就是說我們可以直接做成決議在執法一定會定這個條文就達到這個目的了那我想是不是可以六個月如果特殊就六個月這樣我們把定在執法裡面對6加66加6好來各位"},{"start":6881.578,"end":6897.875,"text":"這邊我說明一下因為這個母法通過執法出來以後我相信所有的台灣的虛擬資產服務商啊會進入一個所謂的業務黑暗期啊業務黑暗期為什麼因為他要做很多的因為假設業態成長因為在台灣大家突然意識到哇這個產業"},{"start":6901.098,"end":6905.52,"text":"是有機會的不管是從業的機會還是這個相關的機會那這個他們又要來申請這個牌照又要申請許可同時之間這個業務人員又要在6個月之內6加6我想其實我們這個政府應該是最重視勞動者的這個時間跟權益的"},{"start":6922.446,"end":6944.044,"text":"會不會到最後反而造成了這種過勞的情況我們當然知道要趕緊追趕但是反而是說我還是希望能不能考慮就是總共兩年但是改為是一年加一年這樣子那我想這個因為六個月齁老實說真的很短我們這個法已經審了已經想了三年以上五年了那我們自己弄了五年啊結果產業人員給他六個月"},{"start":6945.445,"end":6961.628,"text":"我覺得主委這樣會不會有點說不過去啊有沒有機會考慮一下我想這樣也是一個比較合理那能快的可以快啊那是不是能夠有一個比較有彈性啊不要到時候大家哇牌照也申請不好要補交資料啊業務人員哇這個吐血"},{"start":6962.188,"end":6980.08,"text":"我想這個絕對不是我們政府要看到的好不好 謝謝我是覺得可以在執法裡面來討論這個時間我是覺得說因為我們這個虛擬資產服務法也不是從零開始你們這一個VESP的這些服務商也不是現在才知道有這些規定執法一定有相關的規定所以我覺得6加6應該是差不多了"},{"start":6980.64,"end":6987.385,"text":"我簡單說這個關鍵是在那個資格條件如果資格條件其實訂的真的很不合理的話那當然再長時間都沒有用那這個要透過我們在真的在協商那個執法比如說資格條件怎麼訂像我們各個業別對資格條件的要求是不一樣的"},{"start":7007.001,"end":7030.779,"text":"所以說我覺得這個可能是不是我們先用6加6但是不要把它定成是這是一個地板那我們再來透過那個在執法協商的時候再看怎麼樣有個彈性說不定不同的業別他要求的程度是不一樣的我想這邊給一個彈性在執法裡討論不要這邊寫實其實有時候可能會失之過嚴或過寬但是我們有共識是不是底板就是6加6"},{"start":7031.94,"end":7049.794,"text":"用這樣的方式那個主委那就是呃6加6也是我的版本啊那好那我們就就同意6加6啊好不好對我有向各位支持啦你就在母法裡面放在母法哦不用紙吧不是就放在紙法裡面就是我們的母法把它定清楚啦母法把它定清楚"},{"start":7055.658,"end":7075.968,"text":"我提醒主委啊你不要一股腦的什麼都把它丟在執法執法也是法也要經過立法院除非你是行政命令執法沒有比較鬆喔執法還是要到我們這裡通過喔沒有說執法就不必改喔沒有這樣子喔也是要立法院通過執法就是法它也是一個法律"},{"start":7076.568,"end":7100.817,"text":"所以都要到立法院所以我是說如果你母法可以定就母法定如果加幾個字為什麼不要你一定要推到通通推到執法就幾十個上百個執法啊每個執法都要立法院同意耶那你現在這裡定為什麼不定呢對不對你不要一直說啊都給執法都給執法都給執法這是一個迷思啊對啊這是一個迷思它不是如果你說行政命令那個不一樣"},{"start":7101.537,"end":7119.828,"text":"行政命令你們可以盯可以快但是你都多給執法執法就是法也是要到立法院你現在我要聽起來的話最少有幾十個執法你就有幾十個執法不是啦他這個第12條是唯一在這個行政院版本有主管機關定制是指行政命令不是指執法"},{"start":7120.468,"end":7140.162,"text":"對 我想問的是說請問主委到底執法有哪些類別或是相關的是不是到時候給委員這些內容啊不然我們都不知道你還說執法都概括性的可是怎麼可以這樣我們發言順序我們發言順序一下對不起 吳平瑞剛剛劉淑冰委員在那個葛國勛委員在換到吳平瑞委員 來"},{"start":7141.977,"end":7171.152,"text":"然後最後林楚瑩委員好不好意思謝謝主席就是我們也看到了很多都放執法執法那這樣現在沒錯是母法但是執法的確是很多是行政命令由行政機關他去根據實際的需求沒有沒有沒有很多很多很多的部分要看他狀況有時候是行政命令有時候是真的住宿或是還需要法的話那就是要立法院通過可是很多目前這種事實際上面的在運作要另行的就是用行政行政命令的方式去處理"},{"start":7172.272,"end":7195.985,"text":"所以我想問的是說主委因為我們等一下也有提一個或是說請主委是不是能夠對相關的這一部母法要涉及到的有些執法的部分那它是屬於行政命令的部分或者是真的還有立法院在通過的部分是不是也能夠做一個清單類別讓我們知道不然我們真的覺得好像是有點在放水我們作為一個立法者我覺得這種部分是我們沒辦法去接受的謝謝 接下來請"},{"start":7197.512,"end":7202.878,"text":"所以我想精神上大家是一致那細節我想我就提兩點非常簡短的"},{"start":7203.971,"end":7230.892,"text":"第一個其實我想主委對於我們這個立法業務也都很賢熟啦老實說6加6我們假設執法真的要預告就6個月啦然後呢你要送進來審哇那又不知道民國幾年啦那在這個過程當中這些煎熬的營業人員怎麼辦這是第一點齁我們真的執法在審定的時間趕得上這個6加6嗎這對他們公平嗎這是第一點第二點"},{"start":7231.733,"end":7251.22,"text":"今天我們母法裡面沒有明定出來我非常憂心啊產業人員直接出走為什麼我根本不知道我會面臨到什麼樣的條件這個產業是什麼日本在搶人韓國在搶人香港在搶人新加坡在搶人美國德國我每一個國家都可以列出來"},{"start":7251.94,"end":7270.793,"text":"那結果我們現在說我給你一個不明確的東西但是我要考核你不知道怎麼考核不知道什麼時候期限不知道我如果是一夜圓圓我明天就出國了所以我想這絕對不是我們虛擬資產服務法的精神好不好所以能在母法的就應該要放進來謝謝好 接下來剛才還有林楚瑛委員"},{"start":7273.896,"end":7293.577,"text":"基本上我是同意前面的委員他們提出來希望保障現任的這些從業人員的狀況但是我還是比較就是支持金管會認為還是放在執法的原因是因為我們知道其實我們現在訂定之後會有一些退其實是處理所謂的退場機制啦你現在在運行的人他就必須要退場了"},{"start":7294.218,"end":7318.569,"text":"那麼在現在的過程中我們在討論的過程中大家也就會知道自己符不符合這個規定那麼我認為由主管機關訂定之他會預留一個彈性的空間為什麼這樣講因為如果你現在我們就討論到底是六個月還是兩年或是一年其實現在還沒有實行下去是不知道那個狀況的六個月可能短但是也有可能一年會太長等等那麼這個對於消費者的保障來說如果這一間他必須退場了"},{"start":7321.71,"end":7342.043,"text":"其實業者還有從業人員自己就應該要思考而不是說偶賴著有一年兩年這樣的時間所以我還是支持由主管機關訂定之這樣的說法就可以然後其他的放到執法當中甚至於是實行細則當中去做討論才會讓這個市場以及實行上面有彈性還有烏比瑞委員"},{"start":7345.117,"end":7374.008,"text":"一個問題把它釐清第一個我們解釋這個行政院本本就主管機關訂定之是指訂定行政命令並不是訂執法那這個是行政命令所以將來行政命令訂好之後送到本院來原則上我們是被查但是我們如果覺得有必要還是可以改審查這個是第一個先說明第二個說明是今天同意時間多久這是一個命題"},{"start":7375.356,"end":7387.785,"text":"就是說所謂將來可以轉切換的那個時間這是一個命題第二個命題就是說到底是要放在行政命令還是要放在母法這是第二個考量"},{"start":7390.458,"end":7414.305,"text":"因為這個為什麼我認為為什麼放行政命令來規定呢因為我舉個例子民眾黨黨團的版本他的第一項第二項第三項他講說本法通過全民社區理事長服務商雇用之業務人員因本法通過六個月內取得第一項鎖定資格條件但有正當理由未能於六個月內取得資格條件者"},{"start":7416.944,"end":7445.924,"text":"這個本身正當理由未能去六個月內所以什麼叫正當理由如果你不在行政命令比較細節的訂定這個東西放在母法光一個正當理由我們這個將來又要解釋又要執行所以我是覺得因為這個行政命令的這個規範會有很多的細節我們通通把它訂在母法裡面是我認為是很難操作啦你先聽我講完我覺得不同的命題"},{"start":7446.784,"end":7466.104,"text":"那現在主管機關認為他訂定行政命令的時候他一定會規範這些內容這個是他們認為這樣的法例比較適合處理這樣的立法那至於多長的期間葛維軍委員強調的你認為說六個月加六個月太短就是另外一個議題"},{"start":7467.245,"end":7485.638,"text":"那到底多久的時間是適合這是大家可以來討論的所以我是建議先處理說這個讓行政命令來定因為這裡面必須要把內容太多我們沒有辦法在一個條文裡面把它全部都包進來這是我的意見來 葛屋君委員等一下 葛屋君委員"},{"start":7487.299,"end":7513.982,"text":"是我想非常多委員同僚跟這個前輩我想大家精神一致啦那在這裡我其實就要講的就是假設是以主管機關定資那這個法上路或者我們今天出委員會順利的話也許我們這個會期三讀三讀公告以後總統公告以後請問從業人員問主委一句話我明天還有工作嗎主委回答得出來嗎一定有啊"},{"start":7515.384,"end":7529.686,"text":"不是啊 可是主管機關訂資他不知道你什麼時候訂他不知道你訂什麼樣的內容他不知道你的期限因為三讀後總統公告你並沒有一約說我公告的時候我所有細則就一定會同步出來"},{"start":7530.347,"end":7544.14,"text":"所以我覺得這個確實這個剛剛主委提到很重要的四個字性愛保護所以這個性愛保護能不能真的deliver我們還是希望說時間能夠有一個大概在母法裡面去讓大家感受到性愛保護謝謝"},{"start":7546.742,"end":7561.836,"text":"我們大家都已經發言的差不多了我建議先讓主委簡單的做回應然後我們休息一下我們休息個三分鐘 需要上廁所他們也都需要上洗手間主委你先回應我們休息 等一下就休息一下"},{"start":7563.156,"end":7582.822,"text":"謝謝 謝謝各位對這個關心 我知道一定是產業也是有擔心這個問題其實各位應該有注意到 其實我們這個我們雖然在討論心理資產服務法 但是我們的登記制已經上路 他們其實正在運作中這是我們剛剛講的一個前提就是說 我們的產業不是剛剛開始 是在運作中了"},{"start":7583.542,"end":7607.587,"text":"那所以說呢這裡面其實各位剛剛關切的是期間其實我更關切的是資格假設這個資格不會產生什麼樣的限制很嚴重的話其實剛剛那個討論那個期間沒有太大的意義啦因為畢竟剛剛講那個體力的部分其實我們過去所有的在金管會所轄的特許事業都是用這樣的方式來管理因為為什麼大家在那邊討論第一個沒有業者在場"},{"start":7608.467,"end":7620.739,"text":"沒有這個考慮到個別的業這個很細緻要去討論所以我們講說這個執法通過以後我們待會可以解決假設解決疑慮我們可以用附帶決議的方式一定會要求這些來開始開會討論這個東西才會定案才實施一定是這樣的"},{"start":7626.164,"end":7653.024,"text":"那只是說這個內容確實是在這邊直接寫在法律案是比較少見因為這個是牽涉到整個人事的管理會隨時都會變動的比如說講到這個我們有些的那個VASP業者他的經營型態其實風險很低其實他要求沒那麼高的時候其實他的那個負責任制跟條件其實非常的可能是不如各位想像好像非常嚴苛各位一定要想很嚴苛一下就不能過還什麼之類的"},{"start":7654.245,"end":7663.819,"text":"這個還要看那個業別來談所以他的核心是在於說那資格條件要做到什麼時候才可以保護他的交易人這是個重點所以這是個很細緻所以我們未來會開公廳開始討論那我們剛才講說至少我們承諾剛才比如講說能夠有"},{"start":7669.369,"end":7685.747,"text":"可能有一年的時間我們再根據不同的業別再跟他們再溝通說我們這個東西要怎麼樣才適切適當第一個不是只有VISB還有很多教育人等著看我們對這個東西的合理剛才我也很擔心我覺得是應該不會有其實我們過去的管理都是這個模式啦"},{"start":7686.748,"end":7701.137,"text":"當然是這樣剛才比如說這個法律當然是說我們的剛才比如說劉委員提到其實我們這裡面非常多的執法規定就是因為那有些是要訂辦法有些是訂規則有些訂這樣我們本來就有整理一套在立法院我們報告"},{"start":7702.477,"end":7719.929,"text":"過去我們這裡面大概有幾個執法我們現在總共有九個執法正在做這個報告我們在歷次的報告都已經做過了有些你看條文很多它會整合在一個執法裡面相關的但是就裡面很多的授權就是為了維持未來監理的彈性我們絕對沒有要忽略"},{"start":7720.749,"end":7748.642,"text":"這個立法院的意識絕對沒有那是我們整個立法體力而且我們對高度監管的行業的對負責人的管理都是採用這樣的模式以最短時間定制用個行政規則的方式或行政命令的方式定隨時可以根據這個來調整那最重要是還要跟他們做公聽做討論然後根據各種不同的業別定定不同的標準會跟他們做協商那我想委員會擔心如果大家覺得是這樣我們可以做成一個附帶決議把它講清楚那大家就可以看得到對"},{"start":7750.663,"end":7767.39,"text":"這個過去是一致的 不過主委剛剛葛維俊委員講的那個時間點會不會六個月太短這個部分因為剛才準備的時間也要充分我想這個部分你們也私底下我們休息五分鐘上洗手間然後你們該溝通的溝通清楚我們回來就把這個條文做確定"},{"start":7787.688,"end":7813.234,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7836.045,"end":7838.226,"text":"我跟他講說這部分"},{"start":7859.923,"end":7871.118,"text":"這個還要期限嗎還要期限我們可不可以因為像你一直單挑這個罪行其實我們要做的事還很多不只這個你沒有寫啊"},{"start":7875.58,"end":7885.683,"text":"應該是他的寫法會這樣比如判刑確定或服刑期滿幾年之內通常都是服刑期滿幾年期算因為判刑確定還要服刑期滿算五年之內不可以"},{"start":7902.409,"end":7918.796,"text":"他服刑當然不能啦服刑期滿以後就要活對不對這個服刑不得擔任就是確定什麼服刑期滿期滿內就是我們會去看看我們現行的體力是怎麼做的看看他們的體力"},{"start":7926.139,"end":7931.862,"text":"因為剛才跟他談的話我們可不可以就是說剛剛那個就都是其實附帶決議寫進去我們一定會定這個決議"},{"start":7951.552,"end":7964.354,"text":"我們現在有九個 加穩定幣八個就加一個穩定幣那我想問是不是可以給那個執法的名稱有有 因為我們那報告以前就是做過 我們再給委員我甚至覺得 因為實際上大家除了可能"},{"start":7974.036,"end":7988.971,"text":"沒有 它是一個完整性啦就是在規範裡面 你好 就說我會在其他地方看看什麼這個好 因為整個完整性對負責人這個角度消極資格跟這個是完整性 你明明就消極資格沒有沒有 積極資格就是他們所擔心的"},{"start":8126.057,"end":8129.419,"text":"這個我再跟幾位商量一下"},{"start":8159.336,"end":8159.756,"text":"我們這條第12條"},{"start":8167.101,"end":8194.667,"text":"我解釋一下因為你們是漏掉了我幫你們補起來你們文字可以修改但是這條我堅持因為因為你這條裡面來講你都沒有你只是說我開業啊幹什麼幹什麼可是因為做這個事情被判刑比如說他洗錢被判了兩年他一樣可以這樣開啊這不會煞你啦這東西不會煞你啦所以這條文字你可以幫我改但是我要加進來這個我堅持"},{"start":8196.467,"end":8209.191,"text":"在魔法裡面就給你一個魔法把他限制了我已經被判刑了我就不可以當負責人我就不可以當董監事你這個要處理到的我幫你處理這條來 主委你們這一條現在是第11條"},{"start":8218.365,"end":8234.364,"text":"這一條其實我們應該是都會放在我們的那個消極資格條件那當然委員這裡面提到是他是主要特別因虛擬資產涉及詐欺洗錢或違法本法受刑追訴確定因為這個"},{"start":8236.667,"end":8251.291,"text":"如果真的要列的話那個字那個都要寫過對就是說等於說可能就是要受刑之確定服刑期滿幾年內不可以這是符合我們過去在這個做這個規定那是這個是針對虛擬資產涉犯詐欺洗錢或這個部分"},{"start":8256.832,"end":8273.37,"text":"好那這樣子好那文字就讓你們去做修正那我們等一下先保留我們等一下這個部分再回來包括剛剛那個時間點的部分我們把它寫清楚那另外就有關剛剛那個負責人那部分看能不能就說我們現在"},{"start":8274.891,"end":8296.574,"text":"把那個期限就是我們先用附帶決議的方式我們還是寫在那個我們的那個規則裡面然後這過渡期限至少一年必要時得延長六個月這樣一個附帶決議好不好至少有一個至少OK好來那後面那個部分就耐心保養的部分就你們再做文字修正我們等一下再回來來我們接下來第十"},{"start":8298.574,"end":8314.324,"text":"來 內事保委員提案第三章張明共同管理規範第251頁 可以嗎 大家有沒有意見沒有意見來251頁 來第三章張明"},{"start":8316.158,"end":8318.32,"text":"我們張明是在後面你們共通我們是叫什麼"},{"start":8344.725,"end":8347.629,"text":"對 不一樣我是這個就維持行政院版本對對對 因為這個接下來"},{"start":8354.082,"end":8371.409,"text":"第二節結名那就剛剛就按照那個就不要有結名就按照那個提令 好不好好來我們接下來來我們都按照院版再來莫名好那都按照院版來第13條251頁來我們請大家看第13條來請"},{"start":8382.694,"end":8404.947,"text":"我快速 因為這個專家B委員很關心這個法一早就來了他待會會有很重要的意見那我很快速就說第13條呢跟我的本席的第11條第二項一樣其實就是希望增訂一個文字就是說主管機關審酌其類別業務範圍分別定制那剛才有講說都禁止法"},{"start":8405.247,"end":8434.68,"text":"那其實我們也看到了就是我想這個我還是希望說能夠明文的在特定的條目上面加上審酌期類別業務範圍分別定制原因在於產業的競爭力他要提前做準備如果他沒有一定的信心未來會不會執法變成是一統適用一個這個不符合特定業別或業態的這個做法業者會緊張緊張了他就跑掉了"},{"start":8435.18,"end":8456.406,"text":"跑掉了就增加了別的地方的競爭力台灣變弱所以我還是希望能夠是不是主管機關這裡考慮一下可以在第13條如果可以第11條也還是可以再把它放進去那這個省著類別業務範圍分別定資這樣不要到時候執法出來結果沒有分別定資那業者不是活不下去了"},{"start":8457.386,"end":8473.335,"text":"好來接下來請那個鍾嘉斌委員你是第14條是不是好來那請主委做回應我想剛剛那個謝謝那個委員的關切那其實上上我們就已經把這文婚名文寫在立法說明裡面會針對這個把那文字寫在立法說明裡面"},{"start":8473.655,"end":8494.167,"text":"好那我們這個回到立法說明那就按照院版來通過來議14條258頁請大家回到看258頁請莊嘉斌委員好謝謝主席我想等法各界都關注我們在場的委員人才技技大家對產業的各個面都關注那其實呢有人關注的是產業的發展"},{"start":8495.188,"end":8520.92,"text":"但是有人也關注在這產業發展之外我們的房幣也要應該同時併進畢竟國人對於詐欺是非常的深惡痛絕那當然我們虛擬資產未來可以促進我們各項的金融商品的發展但是也擔心成為詐欺集團所使用的工具那本席在這裡提出的條文不多那待會因為我們是涉及到法務部的部分待會想請金管會跟法務部分別說明"},{"start":8521.94,"end":8551.378,"text":"那本席就把為了濃縮起見把時間節約本席一共有14條第15條第20條第23條以及第39條及43條那因為事前有跟主管機關溝通過那麼他們是希望說這些條文當中呢有的側重的部分跟洗房防治洗錢防治法有重複規定或者主管機關的權責有重疊比如說法務部那有的像詐房條例呢是屬於內政部所主管"},{"start":8551.778,"end":8578.071,"text":"那這些條文的部分我想就不要浪費大家主條的時間本席的關切就是在打詐跟防洗前那是不是請今晚會呢就以14條開始那幾個五個條文當中如何跟其他主管機關的條文主管條文做切割做分工做管理的做一個原則性的說明同時也請法務部表示你們關於這些相關條文在洗防法上有沒有重複規定還是說需要我們在這個專法上呢"},{"start":8578.671,"end":8601.491,"text":"加以明文的強化規定 那先請主管機關 包括金管會跟法務部分別說明好 請主委針對葛國勛委員 鍾嘉斌委員的意見做說明葛委員我剛才已經說明過了 那個有關那個提到那個 鍾委員提到那個反洗錢的部分 我請我們銀行局局長跟您做說明 因為他在過去主政這一塊"},{"start":8606.009,"end":8623.568,"text":"謝謝委員那對於金融機構在遵循就是洗錢防治規定的部分我們現在就是因為要因應未來我們針對那個這個APG對我們的第五輪評鑑那他一定會看你主管機關在洗錢的部分對金融機構的規管有沒有一套共通性的一個規制"},{"start":8624.409,"end":8648.591,"text":"那這個公共性的規制裡面呢我們原則上都回歸到洗錢防治法裡面那洗錢防治法裡面他在照這個洗錢防治法裡面的規範授權主管機關去訂定對各業別包括像金融機構包括像VASP業者那他有相關的一個規定那所以呢我們本條對剛才委員的一個建議的部分呢我們是不是建議就能夠比照我們現行的一個運作機制"},{"start":8648.871,"end":8676.166,"text":"就像銀行的部分我也是回歸到洗錢防治法的規範電資的部分我也是回歸到洗錢防治法的規範也就在洗錢防治法裡面他訂定各金融機構必須要遵循哪些規定那通通都拉到洗錢防治法的一個規範底下去做相關的一個規範以上說明好謝謝主席那因為法務部的部分我要就教法務部是說因為現在的金融商品的工具是越來的越多樣化"},{"start":8676.866,"end":8700.465,"text":"那法務部過去在對於洗錢防治的部分也都要仰賴包括金管會在內相關的金融商品的管理主管機關來協助那目前像我們談的虛擬貨幣啊其實除了在場的委員跟業者主管機關關切之外呢很多很多的執法人員他對他的未來的發展內容有可能怎麼樣被洗錢來運用可能還是有些不是很了解"},{"start":8700.825,"end":8722.643,"text":"申請法務部說明一下就本期所提出的條文你們是支持回歸到洗錢防治法或炸房條例炸房那些那都不管了啦或者說希望呢在金管會部分可以在本個專法當中呢也提示提示金管會的必要之協助義務以便於其他的各目的世界主管機關能夠來協助報告洗房跟防炸請說明"},{"start":8724.003,"end":8739.395,"text":"跟委員說明那在本法立法之前關於那個虛擬資產其實就出現在犯罪集團或者洗錢詐欺這一類的領域裡面就有發現了就有在產生了"},{"start":8739.855,"end":8754.603,"text":"那在那個階段因為目前國內還沒有虛擬資產法所以當時關於虛擬資產跟犯罪相關的防治問題都落實在洗錢防治法最早是在洗錢防治法的規定裡面"},{"start":8755.603,"end":8780.621,"text":"那相關的跟心理資產服務商等等還有一些那個資訊的保管調取等等這一些相關的機制在這個階段都是依據洗錢方針法授權監管會制定的一整套配套了好幾樣的這個執法就是當時是用洗錢方針法當母法"},{"start":8781.081,"end":8797.354,"text":"然後授權金管會制定各個領域相關的執法去防治那目前就我所知道的金管會這個是他們推動虛擬資產監管納管的政策上的第一個階段那第二個階段他就走進了虛擬資產法"},{"start":8799.395,"end":8821.306,"text":"所以洗錢防治法那個階段大概相關的執法包括服務商包括資料的保管調取等等這一些他現在院版的這邊這個部分就把它納入虛擬資產防治法的服務法的制定跟相關執法所以將來等於是兩個部分"},{"start":8822.523,"end":8831.048,"text":"一部分是以前虛擬資產的那個洗錢防治法的母法跟他的執法然後現在再加上虛擬資產服務法我想"},{"start":8832.796,"end":8858.013,"text":"多加了一套這個防治的法令可以用所以目前未來就是透過這個雙軌的去處理委員關心的這個問題所以我想金管會應該都有把先前第一階段的那些相關的虛擬資產服務商還有相關業務的監管措施等等放在我們本法裡面所以這個部分我們是支持院版的草案"},{"start":8858.833,"end":8882.219,"text":"好謝謝主席主席剛剛法務部的意見我聽起來法務部是支持院版尊重主管機關金管會過去在於洗錢防止法授權之下所制定的各項執法規範那未來這些執法規範或者納入我們的這個虛擬資產服務法當中或者在這個服務法之下再另訂其他的執法我想這個方向是非常明確那本席這邊可以接受那在這裡也亦宣告"},{"start":8882.799,"end":8898.114,"text":"那因為基於這樣的關係啊那麼我們認為有些不足的地方在43條的部分那本市是提出了一個修正動議希望說我們委員可以支持那可以我們金管會未來在洗錢房之外打詐部分在他們的必要的相關規範之下"},{"start":8899.275,"end":8917.123,"text":"也在法律明文規定金管會有其義務針對他們目的世界主管的這些資產服務商呢應該要在遇到有這樣的一個洗錢房子或打詐的需求的時候呢應該協助相關的這個司法警察機關呢去進行調查以上說明來 請民主委員"},{"start":8925.184,"end":8944.058,"text":"謝謝主席我想第14條處理的其實就是內部的包括內控然後集合還有最重要的是我要強調的是資安管理的部分因為目前這一條裡面我們知道在虛擬資產它是一個高度數位化網路化那麼所以對於業者他們自己建立制度是不夠的"},{"start":8944.798,"end":8964.31,"text":"更重要的是如何在這個所謂資安的部分能夠去強化所以我的提案特別是強調就是說雖然資安的部分它的直屬機關主管機關是數位發展部但是面對這個所謂的虛擬資產資安是相對的更形重要"},{"start":8964.77,"end":8980.322,"text":"所以說是不是在我們的法條當中加入就是對於在資安的部分的強化所以我的修法當中可以看到就是最後一段就是虛擬資產服務法上建立的資通"},{"start":8981.082,"end":9003.955,"text":"系統之安全管理制度跟營運資訊之管理及保密政策營運持續性政策並採取適當的措施及程序那主管機關得定期辦理資安檢查其辦法由主管機關定之必要時得會商數位發展部或是相關主管的意見因為我認為虛擬資產他能夠要"},{"start":9006.636,"end":9032.884,"text":"的服務商要能夠穩定穩固甚至於保護所謂的消費大眾最重要的是資安的部分所以我特別把它強化出來這是我提案的重點當然我尊重主管機關在現在金管會怎麼樣去在這個法條上面做文字上面的修正或說明甚至於維持原案都可以但是我認為資安的這個部分的這個精神必須要放進來"},{"start":9035.325,"end":9051.427,"text":"好我的部分也是有條文虛擬資產服務法的資安的營運管理保密政策非常重要那由金管會去做程序的來做訂定跟修正好這個部分大家都已經發言完了請主委來做回應"},{"start":9052.318,"end":9080.07,"text":"好謝謝有關這個資安的部分那確實剛才林委員提到就是那個未來這個面對到這是一個新的挑戰那確實如果說可以的話如果加入會商速發部這個我覺得是有它的可行性那這個前面我也有提到主管機關得定期辦理資安檢查其實在43條就有訂了啦所以我覺得這個可以建議不要那是不是就剛才就是必要時得會商"},{"start":9081.511,"end":9104.631,"text":"這個數位發展部這個之意見有沒有 可不可以就是會有關機關之意見對政院嘛 好不好 有關機關好不好好 那個文字上的修正就請你們調之後 我們等一下再唸一次我們先回來第12條 賴氏堡委員的版本已經有跟"},{"start":9105.752,"end":9120.197,"text":"有修正已經通過我們第一第二項照行政院版我們甄列第三項第三項的條文讓議事人員宣讀一下懲犯虛擬資產詐欺洗錢或違反本法規定之罪"},{"start":9121.017,"end":9140.628,"text":"經判決有罪確定尚未執行尚未執行完畢或執行完畢緩刑期滿或赦免後尚未於5年者不得擔任虛擬資產服務商之負責人已充任者主管機關應予以結認宣讀完畢這文字他們調過了他們看過了可以"},{"start":9155.291,"end":9157.052,"text":"保護部的同仁看一下"},{"start":9171.625,"end":9191.936,"text":"來跟各位同仁宣告我們等一下審到1點鐘12點鐘放便當我們審到1點鐘1點鐘我們稍微讓大家休息一下交換一下意見2點半再回來繼續審查好不好12點邊審邊吃便當1點我們休息一個半鐘頭讓他們稍微做一下整理我們2點半繼續審查條文"},{"start":9207.932,"end":9210.635,"text":"來我們第14條來法務部看有沒有意見"},{"start":9215.339,"end":9241.128,"text":"好那這樣子那個我們第十四條我們先保留等他看我們直接進入第十五條來十二條保留那第十四條十四條文字修正嘛對不對那我們來進可以念了嗎"},{"start":9242.452,"end":9254.041,"text":"要印給大家來我們先進來第15條我們先進來第15條因為都在看都在都在營運我們先進來第15條好了第15條有民眾黨單獨一個版本"},{"start":9271.399,"end":9273.581,"text":"來第15條民眾黨團的版本在270頁單獨一條來來請劉書斌委員沒有意見的話就"},{"start":9292.809,"end":9311.219,"text":"謝謝民進黨提出 其實它跟我們14條那個第二項精神是一樣的啦我想這部分我們在那個條文已經可以處理了是不是就尊重 就是按照院版的條文好 那是不是我們就不予採納來 我們接下來看第10行政院院版的第15條271頁"},{"start":9322.601,"end":9322.641,"text":"第二項"},{"start":9337.534,"end":9361.93,"text":"那個部分我有條文的修正虛擬資產服務商作業委託他人處理的話如果受委託機構或他受雇人之故意或過失導致客戶的權益受損失的話仍應對客戶負同一責任這個是我的修正的意見那其他的委員有沒有其他的意見那會員有意見林思敏委員也有版本"},{"start":9364.384,"end":9388.369,"text":"還是請主委做一下說明我想剛剛那個主席提到那個條文我們是建議這個條文可不可以再加兩個字就是說原來是人應對客戶負同一責任可不可以加個依法因為它其實上要這個就是法律上明確的規定好那我們就依法可以那就按照主委所說的就做文字做修正"},{"start":9391.26,"end":9399.494,"text":"依法 欸 等一下照我的版本依法"},{"start":9405.888,"end":9434.79,"text":"依法人應對客戶負同一責任人對客戶依法負同一責任人應對客戶依法負同一責任按照我的條文然後加這個好那我再念一次第15條按照李燕秀委員的版本修正文字在第"},{"start":9436.274,"end":9460.25,"text":"第二項最後仍應對客戶依法負同一責任好負同一責任仍應對客戶依法負同一責任好大家有沒有意見好那我們修正通過來我們第十來這一條"},{"start":9465.436,"end":9479.547,"text":"我們這一條就修正通過我們換下我們換下那沒關係我們繼續往下等一下一併保留的等一下一起處理來第16條條文在第277277嗎對行政院第16條277大家有沒有意見"},{"start":9495.937,"end":9521.955,"text":"來 每一件來按照院版通來 我們有一個附帶意見我有一個附帶意見277頁來 主委看一下我們的附帶決議附帶意見第4個 主委可以嗎好來 那就"},{"start":9525.438,"end":9533.043,"text":"為保護接受虛擬資產服務之客戶權益維護虛擬資產服務品質增進交易市場管理進而促進虛擬資產業務健全發展金融界度管理委員會因於本法施行同時將虛擬資產服務商公告為金融消費者保護法之金融服務業"},{"start":9550.194,"end":9569.054,"text":"必須接受虛擬資產服務之客戶得獲金融消費者保護法之保障尤其虛擬資產服務商應充分了解客戶以評估適當性建立風險管理機制必使客戶充分了解服務之重要內容與風險"},{"start":9570.535,"end":9597.953,"text":"且虛擬資產服務商刊登、播放廣告及進行業務招攬或營業促銷活動時不得有虛偽、詐欺、隱匿或其他阻滯他人物性之情勢並應確保其廣告內容之真實其對客戶所負擔之義務不得低於前述廣告之內容及進行業務招攬或營業促銷活動時對客戶所提示之資料或說明提案人為聯署人"},{"start":9601.226,"end":9627.507,"text":"李思平 戴世保 羅明財委員及葛玉春委員 宣讀完畢主席 您這個附帶決議的這種招攬行為在後面的部分呢民眾黨的部分跟本席的部分都有提類似的條款要不要一併討論的時候再來做這是第18條對啊是後續的部分 民眾黨是第18條啊這條序上就接著而已啊我現在在處理第16你16啊 可是你16的內容其實跟我們18跟17是雷同的啊"},{"start":9634.663,"end":9648.614,"text":"現在所討論的這個招攬行為,其實跟我們的條文內容是一樣的廣告的部分,欸你的部分不是要附帶不是不是,就大家討論一下嘛,相關的部分啊,不然你通過的話我們就不用討論啊,民眾黨也不用討論啊民眾黨的是8,好284件"},{"start":9660.66,"end":9669.441,"text":"好來請那個郭國文委員要不要補充說明"},{"start":9672.212,"end":9696.172,"text":"我想那個主席你剛剛所列的這些相關負債決議的部分其實跟本席的這個條文當中所提到的因為金管會說他一直要強調說有關於廣告的規範是屬於金融消費的這個保護那個你大概可以規範到一些相關的金融業者包括你虛擬資產的部分也同樣的是那個金融業者的話你可以賦予規範"},{"start":9696.932,"end":9711.429,"text":"但是往往在廣告的這個行為上面不一定是這些金融業者的時候那你要如何行使規範我覺得關鍵的地方是在這邊特別是來自於境外的部分那你如何行使規範那往往"},{"start":9711.749,"end":9735.916,"text":"另外的部分透過又非金融業者的部分那你又如何行使規範那這樣一些不當的手段呢會讓整個本土的一個客戶或者是委託的業務外流那會形成一個不公平的一個競爭的模式剛剛雖然我們在附帶決議的時候剛剛已經有稍微提過了已經有提過了想要透過這種方式來作為解方不過本期還是特別來慎重提醒一下"},{"start":9736.536,"end":9753.091,"text":"以目前我們的使用者 月列作業界的估計大概有百名以上百萬名以上在整個世界排行的這個市場 台灣的市場大概跟日本市場現在排行一樣大概約佔五定五名"},{"start":9753.912,"end":9777.683,"text":"所以說在這種情況底下我們已經有這個base要如何把它留在一個國內然後防止一些不當的一個行銷的手法出現然後造成我們現在想要去讓我們的虛擬業者能夠有一個比較好的一個產業環境而失去他這個政策的原意我想這個是主管機關要去面對的主委要去思考的啦好不好"},{"start":9790.758,"end":9802.549,"text":"來好那我們修正一下郭國麟委員的那個附帶決議等一下一併一起處理接下來我們看第16條行政院院版第16條277頁"},{"start":9809.226,"end":9826.227,"text":"第16條按照行政院版本加附帶決議李彥秀跟郭國文委員的附帶決議一併通過兩個附帶決議郭國文委員的待會再宣讀我們接下來看"},{"start":9829.957,"end":9833.279,"text":"來284頁民眾黨的第18條還有葛榮鈞委員的第17條以及郭國榮委員的第16條郭國榮委員剛剛已經發言過了來看民眾黨跟葛榮鈞委員"},{"start":9864.043,"end":9869.808,"text":"好來請念一下那個郭國麟委員的附帶決議已經發下來了第二案已經發下來了"},{"start":9880.383,"end":9902.494,"text":"國國委員附帶決議修正為就現行國國制度面對尚未於我國落地之虛擬資產業者雖規範不得於臺灣從事業務招攬等行為卻難以防範業者透過宣傳自家品牌間接於我國吸引用戶流往境外平台為避免為落地之境外業者侵蝕我國虛擬資產"},{"start":9906.904,"end":9914.571,"text":"產業發展同時加強對我國使用者之權益保障以及提升境外業者來台落地動機請經管會參考國際經驗加強未經核准設立之管理措施"},{"start":9927.884,"end":9934.651,"text":"對於未經核准設立資金外平台管理以健全我國虛擬資產市場 宣讀完畢"},{"start":9955.923,"end":9957.404,"text":"先宣布修正"},{"start":9982.22,"end":9996.744,"text":"這個修正案在看在什麼地方加一句話就是說它的設施標準要比照國內的這樣可不可以你現在是參考國際因為你現在是參考國際的啊國內呢 國內標準呢"},{"start":10004.336,"end":10031.906,"text":"這裡有國際標準是說其實國際上對於未落地的處理方式其實有各種的方法原來郭文子提說只參考日韓其實有很多國家可以參考所以變成他是說你沒有落地的話我要怎麼管理你這個方式是很多那跟那個標準其實要落地的標準沒有關係是說你沒有過來的人對我知道你真的沒有嘛我是講說要不要加一句說如果要落地就比照國內標準"},{"start":10040.251,"end":10060.72,"text":"因為你現在規範是沒有落地的嘛你現在是規範未落地的啊就按照如果他落地一定標準都一樣就是我們一定是國民待遇原則啦一定都是這樣"},{"start":10061.522,"end":10088.414,"text":"你什麼地方有寫就沒有看到這句話如果我們的審核標準只有一套就沒有兩套就沒有針對境外的特別就是這樣好來那我們這一條就按照行政院版本通過在家李燕秀委員的附帶決議以及郭國文委員修正通過"},{"start":10092.382,"end":10107.275,"text":"糾正郭國文委員的附帶決議內容通過 來 接下來第17條來 17條按照原版通過 來 接下來第18條18條"},{"start":10138.492,"end":10159.424,"text":"主委你可不可以說明一下第17條裡面你們的條文裡面有寫說除以其他法律或符合主管機關規定之特殊情形者除外你所謂的特殊情形在這邊指的是什麼第一項後端第一項最後端"},{"start":10163.359,"end":10183.289,"text":"這其實我們就是一般來講保密義務是一定的但是有些比如說有其他法律規定那個很清楚那特殊狀況的話我們就預留未來的法規的彈性因為有時候像比如像我們在打炸的時候有沒有有時候為了這些公共利益的時候我們可能也會採取這樣那個方式來處理"},{"start":10184.229,"end":10210.698,"text":"好 主委有沒有可能做這樣子的修正就是說因為要讓其他法律或主管機關另行規定因為你寫特殊情形有時候就會覺得在法律上有太多的不確定性這個部分是不是可不可以按照我的版本就是除其他法律或主管機關另有規定者"},{"start":10215.017,"end":10224.28,"text":"第17條按照李燕秀委員的版本修正通過第17條按照李燕秀委員的版本修正通過第18條294頁來"},{"start":10250.726,"end":10265.455,"text":"好來第18條按照院版修正通過來第第19條來第19條按照院版修正通過第20條來第20條第20條"},{"start":10273.021,"end":10275.272,"text":"葛如軍委員有條文喔是"},{"start":10277.199,"end":10302.247,"text":"可以發言嗎主席好謝謝主席第二十條本條有新增第二項的後段主要是希望在打詐防止洗錢的同時不要讓無辜民眾的權益受到過度的損害財產權還有自由是我們憲法保障的權益那現在其實有很多的情況啊民眾只是收到一筆曾經流經詐騙集團的款項"},{"start":10304.247,"end":10327.796,"text":"帳戶就會無辜被列入警示帳戶他本人根本和詐騙洗錢沒有任何關係最後最近也有新聞提到詐騙集團會在國外假冒現金不夠的旅客請民眾幫忙用線上轉帳換現金很多人出去善意幫忙根本不知道自己的帳戶經過了這樣的一個金流洗錢的金流的部分最後帳戶被封鎖"},{"start":10328.376,"end":10355.244,"text":"被暫停交易那對現在很多人來講啊帳戶一旦不能用影響的不是只有交通的便利他很可能他這個未來我們虛擬資產服務的發展起來了法治完善了說不定很多人的薪資新轉也可以透過穩定幣啊也可以用虛擬貨幣來做很多的日常的一些支應啊結果因為錯打或錯殺導致這個小孩子學費付不出來"},{"start":10356.684,"end":10373.856,"text":"這個房租沒有辦法繳交這種封鎖的情況可能會影響到生活所以其實這個如果影響到看病日常的開銷這個可能會影響甚大甚巨所以本席認為如果是由虛擬資產服務商自行判斷並採取限制措施"},{"start":10375.137,"end":10393.478,"text":"但是沒有接到司法警察機關或主管機關的要求繼續控管那這種限制的措施就應該要有一個時間的上限不能由單一的公司或單一的特定的人沒有經過司法警察機關或主管機關的了解的情況"},{"start":10394.039,"end":10419.782,"text":"他就可以封那這個變成是這個自動自發的太上皇了那這可能會侵犯到民眾的金融自由那當然如果虛擬資產服務商自行判斷發現賬戶真的可能涉及違法的行為在通知司法警察機關之後司法警察機關可以依法對於這個賬號進行監管就不會受到這個本法的限制那或者是警察機關司法機關已經通知了"},{"start":10420.222,"end":10436.033,"text":"那也不影響那在犯罪防治上並不會造成漏洞我們擔心的只有什麼可能特定的這個不明原因去封鎖了不明人士他可能是無辜的可是他沒有一個時間的限制去把他取消掉"},{"start":10436.633,"end":10460.174,"text":"那業者執行控管的期限我們其實還是希望能夠討論一下就是說本席有參考現行的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防治詐欺犯罪危害應遵循事項辦法其實本來這個辦法有規定但是只是弱會有點弱那這個規定是本來就定了20天了不過本席當然也保留了假設"},{"start":10462.996,"end":10476.566,"text":"這個聯繫上有問題我們也不能說讓有嫌疑的人20天就一定能解鎖所以我們也保留了特殊的情況下延長的空間那我本來的寫法可能比較沒有延長空間我們也應該是有一個修正的"},{"start":10478.106,"end":10495.811,"text":"這個文字稍微要做一下修正就是說如果有無辜這也就是說如果無辜民眾不小心收到一筆錢這個曾經流經詐欄賬戶的款項也不至於整個賬戶一鎖好幾個月生活受到影響所以這個金融自由的部分我們加了一些文字希望主管機關能不能就參考"},{"start":10496.471,"end":10520.113,"text":"因為這個現在很多民眾數位帳號被封鎖求助無門金融帳號被封鎖求助無門那接下來如果到虛擬的數位這個虛擬資產的帳號被封鎖求助無門那這個其實是真的會影響到民眾的生活跟自由謝謝好謝謝葛無尊委員的意見這個部分除了葛無尊委員的意見我也有一個修正的版本跟前面"},{"start":10520.333,"end":10520.773,"text":"第二十條的部分"},{"start":10540.876,"end":10559.616,"text":"好謝謝那個謝謝葛委員對這個問題一直很關心但是因為這個這個確實剛才委員有提到求助我們其實是有啦因為但是他有他一個程序因為這個打炸的部分大家對這個相關的程序其實周圍延續也經過很多的考慮"},{"start":10560.757,"end":10586.093,"text":"因為如果按照現行的條文直接限售20日為限的話那我覺得在我們的司法單位在做查調的時候是否足夠我們也可以請司法院的這個我們的相關的單位來做做這個或是請那個警政署的代表來做一個說明看看這個情況因為我們會比較尊重那個就是我們現在現在執法機關他們的需求"},{"start":10586.909,"end":10612.799,"text":"那至於說剛剛那個昭偉有提到那個我們就按照前面立法的意思呢就是剛剛那個前面那一條就是按照那個昭偉的意見來辦理就讓他一致好 但是主委你那個解凍的就是解凍的條件因為這牽涉到他們現在請檢證署這邊程旭他怎麼回應科長"},{"start":10614.744,"end":10629.742,"text":"我先主席我可以稍微補充一下因為其實我們也有跟金管會還有相關單位有溝通我們有在想說我本來的文字其實並沒有說若有必要得延展資這個我是可以加進來"},{"start":10630.823,"end":10657.394,"text":"然後前面呢這個就是說如果司法警察或其他相關主管機關已經通知的那其實不需要這個就是我有一個文字啊就是其非經司法警察或其他相關主管機關通知應繼續控管者外相關限制措施應以20日為限若有必要得延展之這樣我有稍微在因為討論過嘛所以我們稍微有討論所以這個可以嗎"},{"start":10660.993,"end":10664.677,"text":"他們辦案的時間需要需要一定的時間我們就是配合這樣那個辦理"},{"start":10666.634,"end":10693.51,"text":"來 警政署主席 各位人 大家好警政署本人報告有關於虛擬資產服務章對於疑似不法或獲選為異常的交易客戶的部分那在這部分的話其實有涉及到通報在這個通報議題上面其實目前不管是金融機構它本身有一個通報機制他們的作業相關的業務流程有一個那另外還有於洗錢防治法的部分它本身對於"},{"start":10694.531,"end":10699.129,"text":"大額通貨或是說可以交易部分有說STR的通報"},{"start":10700.458,"end":10726.666,"text":"那再來也是剛剛葛委員所提到的就是有關於金融機構提供虛擬資產服務的服務置業或人員防治詐欺危害防治條例的遵循辦法裡面也有規範那在警方的這部分來講的話我們是依照這個金融機構這個遵循辦法來做一個通報跟警示那在這塊部分我們其實我們也侷限在詐欺這一塊"},{"start":10728.366,"end":10746.181,"text":"因為很多像委員剛剛提到這些其實之前照理講應該是說金融機構它本身有針對他們的業務行為再來針對金額的一場交易的部分它其實有那個期間的行為"},{"start":10746.843,"end":10769.109,"text":"再來就是涉及到一個詐欺的行為那其實這三樣其實是我們本身就有不同的分工那我們在警方的部分的話其實就是詐欺的通報那目前我們在做詐欺通報的部分我們針對20天內來做公文書的回應的部分其實在20天內我們其實很多在調查上面其實時間是還蠻不夠的"},{"start":10772.93,"end":10787.857,"text":"那變成說 因為我們還要 第一個我們還要調金融帳戶資料第二個我們還要調有關提醒款的影像資料甚至以後面還要追查相關的資料各位我建議就還是放附帶意見 你看要怎麼去附帶決議"},{"start":10794.355,"end":10819.763,"text":"我想我還是為主席可以發言嗎謝謝我想我其實真的是因為最近我們都看到打仗大家都是一致的但是民眾的金融自由有很大程度受到危害跟受限所以我們還是希望能不能在文字上面很明確的去保障民眾的這個金融自由就是"},{"start":10821.964,"end":10836.892,"text":"我的文字其實很明確就是說暫停全部或部分交易工人逗點其非經司法警察或其他相關主管機關通知應繼續控管者外這句的意思是說"},{"start":10837.992,"end":10857.337,"text":"不能給相關的業者一把黃金鑰匙想鎖誰就鎖誰而且沒有時間的限制但司法警察機關通知的他可以這麼做就算通知了要相關限制措施應以二十日為限逗點我們也知道實務上確實二十日假設真的不夠"},{"start":10858.157,"end":10880.377,"text":"他若有必要得延展資我們也把這字加進來那這樣等於是尊重司法警察我們尊重民眾的金融自由我們也理解主管機關的精神這樣才是一個平衡的喔否則如果照院版的文字下去變成是有一把黃金鑰匙在特定的人手上這也不會是金管會想要的所以是不是"},{"start":10881.198,"end":10908.39,"text":"主委這邊能不能研議一下我們就把部分文字修正就把它放到母法裡面去那這個我們保留一下那個請法治單位跟金管會稍微看一下文字主委就是剛剛跟委員原來提案的內容已經不同我想說待會先請給我們文字我們先暫時考慮待會回來再看好那20條前面的文字我的修正沒有問題那就看葛委員這邊那我們剛剛回過頭來有哪一個條文要唸"},{"start":10912.759,"end":10936.352,"text":"來12條賴世保委員的版本來來來第二項改了一個標點全部請議事人員宣讀第一項照行政院版本第二項修正為未具備前項規則鎖定資格條件者不得充任虛擬資產服務商之服務人及業務人員已充任者主管機關亦予"},{"start":10938.633,"end":10966.779,"text":"幼兒園後面修正為分號已充任者主管機關應予解認第三項修正為懲犯虛擬資產詐欺洗錢或違反本法規定之罪經判決有罪確定尚未執行尚未執行完畢或執行完畢緩刑期滿或赦免後尚未於5年者不得擔任虛擬資產服務商之負責人已充任者主管機關應予解認必修正立法說明"},{"start":10969.846,"end":10995.565,"text":"宣讀完畢第十四條第一項照行政院版本第二項修正為虛擬資產服務商應建立資通系統之安全管理制度營運資訊之管理及保密政策營運持續性政策並採取適當措施及程序其辦法由主管機關定之必要時得會商數位發展部或有關機關宣讀完畢"},{"start":10998.015,"end":11013.603,"text":"好來那第12跟第14條都宣讀完成那第17條照李燕秀版本通過第18、19條按照行政院版本通過第20條保留來接下來第21條剛剛已經念過我們現在看第21條340頁"},{"start":11030.805,"end":11050.154,"text":"來沒有意見的話我們就按照院版通過第22條有沒有意見沒有沒有意見就按照院版通過第23條有沒有意見沒有意見就按照院來改入軍委員"},{"start":11055.014,"end":11069.644,"text":"好謝謝主席那第23條呢我們本席這裡有增加在第二這個第二項的部分那最後有希望要求說增訂要求主管機關應該針對虛擬資產服務客戶保存的方式項目範圍明確定定規範"},{"start":11075.548,"end":11089.488,"text":"主要是希望業者有清楚明確的遵循標準因為本條既然要求虛擬資產服務商留存客戶相關紀錄那就應該盡可能的早一點讓業者清楚知道哪些資料要保存哪些資料保存多久"},{"start":11089.989,"end":11105.449,"text":"那以及應用什麼樣的方式保存避免日後認知不同產生爭議畢竟資料的進入保存對業者來說也是成本也是開銷那對客戶更是各自的隱私保護到底要保到什麼程度要保多久業者都會非常的關心那所以這個"},{"start":11106.69,"end":11135.448,"text":"要求業者負擔義務希望能夠在母法的階段就先提前讓業者知道義務的界線到底在哪裡那我們這一條的版本也跟李秀昭有的版本一樣是關心這個保存的規範只是寫的位置不同那兩個版本看要用哪個都可以其實主要就是增加了一個相關的文字本席的版本是其保存方式項目及範圍由主管機關定之那否則的話如果這個講得比較不清楚"},{"start":11135.908,"end":11161.851,"text":"那這個或者大家不知道之後這個訂定的時候範圍項目方式到底會不會有明確的揭露那這個很可能會導致業者現在所有的東西都要保存到底要保存多少保存多久選擇方式如何他們會無法因應啦那因為畢竟我們上路還有一段時間執法其他的細緻的施行辦法都還需要時間希望能夠在可以的階段把一些文字放到母法裡面謝謝"},{"start":11164.695,"end":11191.421,"text":"請 主委是不是按照我的版本好 那就23條就按照李燕秀委員版本通過來 第24條371頁有沒有意見 沒有意見就按照院版喔 對不起來 賴氏保委員第4章張明個別虛擬資產服務商不用 好 那就不依採納"},{"start":11193.137,"end":11219.457,"text":"第二幕 莫名個別服務商有民眾黨團 林思明委員 葛珠君委員提案是不是就不如採納 因為就要對齊好不好來 那我們接下來看第24條371頁4條 我有一個修正就是跟前面一樣有特殊情形有主管機關"},{"start":11222.585,"end":11251.22,"text":"對 對"},{"start":11252.321,"end":11268.125,"text":"那個24條我們提例就在前面特殊情形按照我的委員按照我的版本修正按照我的按照李燕秀委員的版本第24條371頁好來再來第25條來按照月板通過第26條25條"},{"start":11283.151,"end":11308.933,"text":"2525來修正動議25說明嗎好第25條本條在第二項的這個院版要求平台上在上下架的虛擬資產以前都要經過主管機關同意那本席本來的版本是希望更放寬但是我們有歸封過了就希望是調整成備查在監理跟產業發展之間去保留一定的市場彈性"},{"start":11310.194,"end":11326.348,"text":"那我想其實這也是大家一致的想法那主管機關依照其規定其實已經針對虛擬資產的業者去做審查基準程序跟上下架的管理都會訂定相關的辦法因此對於平台業者依照程序完成審查並上架虛擬資產應該以備查為原則而不是每一案每一個幣"},{"start":11332.092,"end":11345.568,"text":"都要來進行逐一核准這樣其實跟國際的趨勢是有點背道而馳畢竟現在國際的局勢金融市場甚至虛擬市場本身的變化速度都非常非常的快如果所有的項目"},{"start":11347.169,"end":11369.264,"text":"每一個當然交易量可能已經上兆美元了當然要等主管機關一案一案的核定實物上很可能會跟不上市場的變化不只會影響業者的營運效率也會影響他的競爭力這一點我補充說明一下也給我們的主管機關來做參考國際上很多國家的做法都是用備查不需要核准"},{"start":11369.964,"end":11378.997,"text":"金管會參考的歐洲的這個MICA本來就是只需20個工作日以前向主管機關申報白皮書就好不需要核准"},{"start":11379.963,"end":11402.119,"text":"第二個韓國香港也是由業者自行審查因為你已經給業者發牌照了你還要像奶媽一樣跟他一個一個弄我覺得這就影響競爭力所以韓國香港也是由業者自行審查要上架的幣種第三日本則是由業者向產業公會提交評估報告僅需事前通知金融廳也就是FSA即可"},{"start":11402.839,"end":11421.181,"text":"那第四個即便原本曾經有要核准的國家像馬來西亞也在今年讓交易所可以自由上架但是需要符合某些條件比如說這個上架的幣種需要一年以上的交易紀錄那這些主流的提前已經營運的非常健康的國家"},{"start":11422.862,"end":11444.673,"text":"都沒有這種要主管機關額外同意才能上架我們是建議我們要發展金管會不要特立獨行尤其要提醒的是你說比特幣要上架要經過核准誰來申請中本聰根本不知道是誰USAT美國政府發行結果還有美國政府來跟金管會申請核准這個就非常奇怪"},{"start":11445.836,"end":11462.941,"text":"有一些穩定幣他甚至流通量全球已經是100多個million甚至到billion的等級了那現在還要來核准我想這個很可能會出現一個問題是什麼單點故障就是說已經很受信任的東西經過這個東西卡在"},{"start":11465.542,"end":11479.444,"text":"這個審查核准這個制度卡在這個地方可能因為人力啊程序其他因素整個市場被卡住變成人民已經持有在手上的已經在交流已經在交流的東西還沒核准是明天後天"},{"start":11480.245,"end":11503.827,"text":"大後天還是後年這個我想我們最近看到很多的法令就是可能會卡在某一些機關或某一些機關今天說要兩年後施行或兩年後可以核准或明天變成一天兩天或變成明年這種單點的卡頓會讓這個機制被卡住市場失靈甚至癱瘓這對於變化快速的金融市場"},{"start":11504.508,"end":11532.227,"text":"其實是非常不利啦那因為我們既然要通過這個法我們就要看現在的國際的狀況那我們理解金管會用了很多的時間努力去做出這個版本可是在這幾個月內我們剛剛看到像馬來西亞也調整了去讓他們的市場有競爭力喔那所以我們是有稍微修正一下這個文字我們有修正了一下文字這個文字呢就是把它改成是與主管機關備查與主管機關備查"},{"start":11534.808,"end":11553.728,"text":"就不要是用核准的方式那也給整體一個更好的平衡那用這種方式呢我想也相對的是可以讓主管機關有這個監督的權限今天如果主管機關認為某個虛擬資產真的有違法重大的風險不適合交易"},{"start":11554.348,"end":11580.586,"text":"還是可以依照法定的監督權去要求業者下架那這樣的設計其實也不是沒有潛力我們也幫主管機關準備好了相關的這個作業說像證交法裡面證券交易所的上市審查準則跟上市契約準則在主管機關核定以後後續也是由發行人跟證券交易所自行簽約報請主管機關備查而不是每一份契約都要交給主管機關逐一核定那這個是證交法的第140條跟141條"},{"start":11582.927,"end":11604.293,"text":"那又或者有一個很重要的例子要提出來給主委知道就是這個金管會所管理的這個證交所最近剛發布了兩大加密資產的指引USDT跟USDC結果專法設計要金金管會同意結果USDT、USDC還沒金金管會同意證交所就發布指引"},{"start":11604.873,"end":11626.467,"text":"那這個產業不是昏頭了我到底是要先行準備還是我要先等主管機關核准這兩個幣種所以本席對本條的調整已經是有折衷了就是說用備查的方式來找到一個比較合理的平衡點好不好所以這個以上意見表達也希望主管機關可以參考 謝謝好來我們請主委做回應我們邊發便當好不好"},{"start":11628.828,"end":11647.244,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實我們當然是因為角度不同看法就會不一樣那主管機關在管理市場的時候剛才委員提到就比如說我們現在已經比較成熟的市場我們會大量採用所謂的use and fire就是我們所謂的備查制"},{"start":11648.405,"end":11673.359,"text":"或者說用委託審查的方式就像比如說很多我們現在行政機關的原來審查其實就交由工會或交由我們的周邊單位審查其實像它這種審查機制的選擇不一定要主管機關來親力親為但都是經過一道程序的審核那尤其我們現在這個初始當時大家對這個東西其實上有很大很大的信心是來自於政府的納管"},{"start":11674.286,"end":11697.955,"text":"所以其實我們願意做一個這樣一個上架的審查機制其實上某種程度賦予市場的信任那剛剛委員提到就是有關於市場的效率或是未來競爭我想這些我們也都非常非常的能夠理解也支持但是就是說我們市場剛開始就是可不可以就完全不用不用審核我在猜在台灣應該是不可能"},{"start":11698.695,"end":11715.977,"text":"那委員剛剛提案就是說有一個叫做用備查備查其實也是一種審核的方式它是use and file就是它先開始做了再問你可不可以這叫備查主管就算可以隨時可以終止你這個情況所以我覺得可不可以用折中啊改成核備啊"},{"start":11717.81,"end":11744.478,"text":"改成合備制的話這個方式會不會達到相同的效果那我覺得速度上該有了但是我們可以的話就是兼顧我們現在剛初始管理的這個想法否則的話其實未來就像我們萬一有什麼相關的幣種大家只因為上市要急切來做我想我們願意來承擔這個責任但是也請市場盡量不影響到市場的效率用合備的方式這樣是不是比較可行"},{"start":11748.13,"end":11761.768,"text":"那謝謝主委也算是有參考我們的意見去做這個部分的調整那也就如同我們剛剛所說的播放很快尤其是已經是到國家級的競爭了川普宣布的他要出USAT"},{"start":11762.869,"end":11780.384,"text":"萬一透過了這個外交的談判說立刻要上線難道川普還需要等這個金融會來做這個核備那核備的機制是那如果核備是所以核備精神上也還是說你已經在交易的"},{"start":11781.044,"end":11800.84,"text":"如果沒有特別情況是應該可以繼續這個意思所以是不是可以再說清楚一點因為這個知識體大啦因為我們每一個國民每一個既有的這個服務商都絕對百分之百要來守法絕對不會希望出現說法案上路了機器檢查"},{"start":11801.841,"end":11822.024,"text":"沒有任何一個幣種經過核准我手上所有的虛擬資產包含供應鏈金融這個我們一堆製造商5%到7%都已經在用穩定幣在做跨國跨境的交易了一檢查突然發現沒有一個幣種是核備的那這個大家突然間這個嚇一跳也不好"},{"start":11822.284,"end":11842.096,"text":"所以可不可以再稍微說的詳細一點假設是改用這樣的詞彙的話那有沒有一些參考因為我們現在的這個詞是參考證交所104到141其實謝謝委員其實剛才委員提到就是一個已經比較成熟的市場我們可以用這個方式剛開始就同意這叫做合備啦"},{"start":11843.096,"end":11863.612,"text":"像我們很多的在我們金融監理上這個做法是第一個它能夠兼顧到一定的時效性然後因為也給予一個把關的可能性我想說備查已經做下去萬一它是不對的時候事後主管院再來糾正的時候常常已經造成市場上的危害所以我想說這部分已經有考慮到委員的想法這樣"},{"start":11865.013,"end":11881.551,"text":"不好意思主席我再爭取一下其實我想這個主委對這個業務我先謝謝我們今天這樣有一個很棒的審查但是這一個業務的成熟度我想主委有可能要再更仔細的了解"},{"start":11882.432,"end":11900.044,"text":"台灣的這些非常多的業者其實已經運行了將近十年囉已經將近十年囉全世界的這個交易也已經非常成熟囉Morgan Stanley BlackRock 花旗全部都已經進來囉"},{"start":11901.445,"end":11926.833,"text":"台灣是因為後發我們不能說台灣後發我們就用落後的方式來管理因為證券比較成熟我們用證券的方式來他可以這樣做所以我還是想要爭取一下主委我們能不能用備查的方式因為這真的會影響到大家的整體市場的一個狀態那現在真的是很多我們現在股市"},{"start":11927.253,"end":11928.315,"text":"我們來看26條26條沒有意見我們就照"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}