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那議事錄確定"},{"start":1849.738,"end":1874.867,"text":"那麼現在先介紹在場委員李坤哲委員侯孟楷委員列席官員交通部部長陳士凱部長鐵道局局長楊振軍局長台灣高鐵董事長史哲董事長"},{"start":1877.892,"end":1892.27,"text":"柴鐵公司總經理馮輝昇總經理本人會議進行交通部就5月25日高鐵班次嚴重霧點事件之專題報告我們現在邀請交通部陳世凱部長報告"},{"start":1902.233,"end":1930.698,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生首先5月25號高鐵發生耗質異常的事件導致列車大幅減班以及降級運轉影響10萬以上的旅客的行程並且有多位的委員也受到了波及跟影響甚至影響到大院的議事運作交通部僅向所有受到影響的委員以及廣大的旅客致上深切的道歉"},{"start":1932.623,"end":1949.537,"text":"關於事件發生的原因經高鐵公司初步判定為轉測器控制機箱電源模組更新作業後轉測器失去定位訊號系統基於失效趨向的安全設計原則隨即作動"},{"start":1952.6,"end":1963.559,"text":"運轉保護機制強制列車需經由人工授權核准進入並且減速通行以確保安全本人已經責成"},{"start":1965.288,"end":1993.446,"text":"鐵道局針對本市進行調查並且要求高鐵公司會同設備原廠洽第三方單位共同釐清事故的原因同時本部也將督導高鐵公司全面檢討設備更新以及風險管控以提升高鐵系統營運的韌性以及服務穩定性確保運輸安全以及服務的品質以下"},{"start":1994.921,"end":2001.869,"text":"請鐵道局楊振軍局長對本事進行詳細的報告敬請各位委員會與指教謝謝"},{"start":2013.777,"end":2036.375,"text":"主席各位委員那鐵道局就5月25號高鐵班次嚴重污點事件相關的事件概況應變處置及後續的改善對策進行說明跟報告 敬請各位委員指教那本次事件的概況如同剛剛部長所報告的在5月25號上午5點38分鐵道局及街貨高鐵公司的通報"},{"start":2037.236,"end":2057.931,"text":"那麼相關的這些運轉上的限制確實會造成整個路線上的這樣的一個影響那麼在高鐵公司上午8點鐘為了要讓路線上的列車得以疏散因為剛剛講的這個人工授權的這樣的一個進入方式會造成更大的一個延誤所以從早上8點開始採取降級運轉班表"},{"start":2062.034,"end":2080.32,"text":"每小時從南港跟左營各開出三班次的各站停靠的營運列車並提早收班以利夜間的時段進行詳細查修那本部的應變作為根據高鐵公司發生的這樣的一個設備異常並且造成大規模的延誤"},{"start":2081.44,"end":2102.851,"text":"本部署立即採取跨運距聯防措施整合台鐵公司資源協助輸印之外並責成高鐵公司強化旅客資訊的傳遞部長一即在當日下午即召開緊急應變會議邀集武聖雲次長、鐵道局、公路局、高鐵公司、台鐵公司研商搶修與輸印的對策"},{"start":2103.551,"end":2131.303,"text":"全力協助高鐵競速恢復正常營運相關的應變作為包括第一 運具聯防措施台鐵從當日上午10點起西部幹線所有新自強號對車列車全面開放站票以擴充運能上午10點起自強號及徵停新烏日站計44個班次徵停苗栗站16個班次下午尖峰時段並加開七堵道彰化間新自強號兩班次"},{"start":2132.967,"end":2148.927,"text":"第二高鐵尖峰運能的調度除了前述每小時三班次之外呢在下午通勤時段呢並要求高鐵公司加開南港到台中間共八個班次每站停靠的全車自由座以紓解下班的尖峰人潮"},{"start":2149.768,"end":2177.863,"text":"收班後的搶修作業第一要求高鐵公司優先恢復確認這個整個原來的設備跟本次事件電源模組新品瑕疵或其他設備故障所致第二建立停損的檢核點如果夜間搶修在凌晨3點30分仍然無法順利修復的話應立即採取所謂的應變計畫包括啟動備用班表還有尖峰時段的"},{"start":2178.543,"end":2197.602,"text":"這個重點輸運措施第二是台鐵公司的資源輸運第三是以軌道為優先的這樣的一個輸運方式將國道級公路客運列入新竹台北桃園台北間的區區段備援方案第三備妥資源及專家協作要求"},{"start":2198.283,"end":2214.901,"text":"高鐵公司將相關聯的所有備品全數帶入現場並持續由三位日本籍顧問協助查修跟排查所謂的可能的問題第四是旅客資訊透明化與票務措施的改善為明確提供更明確的到站跟延遲時間"},{"start":2216.102,"end":2236.702,"text":"希望高鐵公司能夠就降速區段所造成之列車延誤影響情形於各個管道公布明確的備用時刻表跟預估的到站時間移工旅客評估它的行程第二是研議線上的退費機制現階段所有的退費跟退票的物點證明都必須要在現場"},{"start":2238.324,"end":2257.723,"text":"臨櫃來去做這樣的一個申請那會造成現場旅客的排隊跟酒後不便那所以要求高鐵公司後續能夠評估增加線上退費的功能以利於原來在線上購票付款的旅客能夠直接在系統上面完成退票的這樣的一個動作避免在現場做排隊酒後"},{"start":2258.624,"end":2276.513,"text":"第四是有關事件原因的調查針對本起事件的發生原因鐵道局已經啟動調查程序並督導高鐵公司改善第一點作為是要求保全證據跟啟動第三方更因的調查要求高鐵公司就本次事件相關的四個電源模組兩組電子連鎖"},{"start":2278.554,"end":2293.104,"text":"直端直流端子單元以及兩組EI終端轉換器競速委由第三方公正單位進行檢測會同原廠設備共同釐清事件的根本原因第二鐵道局已經在5月29號派員至高鐵公司了解狀況"},{"start":2294.782,"end":2322.043,"text":"目前的了解是該組的電源模組為20年必要的一個汰換設備全線總共有458組高麗公司自113年起執行為期三年的耗資系統更新作業事發前已經完成371組約80%左右的這樣的一個更換那本次更換電源模組所造成的異常太陽是過去三年以來第一次遇到的這樣的一個情況"},{"start":2323.044,"end":2348.173,"text":"第二點 要求高鐵公司強化風險管控本次事件凸顯為期三年之耗資系統更新計畫風險評估管控上仍有隱患要求高鐵公司應該要審慎評估後續的施工排程目前高鐵公司已經暫停SMC電源模組的更換專案待事件的根本原因釐清之後再重新啟動第三 要求高鐵公司應變程序的精進"},{"start":2349.093,"end":2373.43,"text":"比如剛剛所提到的旅客資訊傳遞跟退費機制的優化等等最後本次事件發生在上午通勤跟上午屢次尖峰時段影響區域在苗栗至台中間重要路段而且影響範圍較大因此造成大規模的延誤本部除了盡速取動運具聯防相關措施之外呢希望能夠將旅客的影響"},{"start":2374.25,"end":2399.71,"text":"降至最低 鐵道局已經啟動調查程序高鐵公司也已經保存相關的設備將會同設備原廠及第三方公正單位查明事件的根本原因以做必要的一個改善避免類似的事件再次發生以上是鐵道局的報告 敬請各位委員指導 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝局長那我們接下來請高鐵公司董事長史哲董事長報告"},{"start":2410.39,"end":2431.126,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生今天受邀到貴委員會針對5月25號高鐵班次嚴重污點事件進行專題報告在正式報告之前我要再次代表高鐵公司向當天形成受到延誤的所有旅客以及大院許多委員及部長等貴賓呈置至上12萬分的歉意本公司除深切檢討並全面檢視系統設備營運服務緊急應變機制設定短中長期三階段目標啟動系統韌性強化計畫"},{"start":2438.312,"end":2440.641,"text":"消除預見性風險全面提升高鐵營運服務的穩定度"},{"start":2443.004,"end":2471.923,"text":"首先營運前突發緊急搶修的狀況的說明這起事件起因於5月25號凌晨4點27分維修人員1計劃更換轉測器控制機箱SMC的電源免阻這也是高鐵之ATC EI中體檢修作業當中的一項整體計劃於116年底預計來完成該作業已行順利完成全線458組中的371組SMC的電源模組更換當天更換後卻發生倒差無法取得定位序號的異常狀況"},{"start":2473.144,"end":2480.207,"text":"基於高鐵系統失效自驅安田的保護機制西線自動鎖定55.4公里東線鎖定6.6公里維修團隊隨即展開搶修於5點15分進行ER中段"},{"start":2489.271,"end":2505.482,"text":"短轉換器ET2的重置雖然未能恢復倒插的訊號但C線鎖定範圍已經大幅減少了一半僅剩28.8公里然由於營運時間即將開始故障仍無法排除於5點38分成立緊急應變中心全力搶修與維持營運並行"},{"start":2508.032,"end":2532.905,"text":"緊急應變中心成立後 為時營運不至於完全中斷決定先採取東線雙向運行並依規章由行控中心採行進入權授權方式進行通測同時由維修人員持續全力搶救同時透過新聞及企業網站T-Express推播告知旅客耗資異常暫時採用單線雙向運行每班次都將有所延誤"},{"start":2534.585,"end":2555.212,"text":"6點54分完成倒岔扣甲鎖定西線鎖定範圍再縮至7.4公里經緊急應變中心評估可執行雙線運行但依據安全作業規範鎖定範圍內必須以進入授權的方式逐次授權單一列車通過並且以每個小時40公里5公里以下的低速通過"},{"start":2556.593,"end":2570.853,"text":"7點50分為避免累積性延誤擴大EOC決定自8點起降級運轉每小時至端點開出三班全車自由坐端點站發車時刻為整點20分及40分以提供旅客基本的營運服務各項營運變更的訊息隨即透過簡訊發送"},{"start":2572.375,"end":2592.165,"text":"九萬一千一百三十五通則訊息通知購票時有留手機號碼的旅客以及使用定期回溯票的通行旅客此外也透過持續透過新聞跑馬Line Today企業網站數位客服及客服中心持續更新營運訊息整體當日訊息發送二十九則"},{"start":2594,"end":2623.326,"text":"維持降級運轉是為了避免延誤惡化恐造成營運的中斷在此同時維修團隊的搶修工作仍持續將進行在10點38分移除EI直流末端單元ETD的第二系之後東線的鎖定範圍再縮小至3.2公里12點45分執行苗栗台中區間約56公里列車進空後關閉再重啟E2系EI道旁控制單元EWU起始EWU恢復初期開機模式"},{"start":2624.086,"end":2648.856,"text":"重新與道旁設備建立聯繫嘗試排除故障然而未能恢復訊號經評估路線淨空作業已導致後續列車產生更大幅度的延誤甚至可能持續惡化造成營運中斷在兩害相權之下EOC決定維持原降級運轉的模式維持提供旅客基本的旅運服務26日零點"},{"start":2651.087,"end":2679.045,"text":"維修人員提早進駐道旁待命末班車通過後即進場搶修1點43分完成東西線四組SMC兩組ETD兩組ET2全線耗資恢復正常3點半EOC確定各項設備正常可以恢復正常營運5點透過各種管道全面對旅客宣布臺灣高鐵26日全天正常營運各車市依照時刻表發車以上僅簡要說明搶修過程接下來向各位委員報告此一事件公司深刻的檢討與反省"},{"start":2680.726,"end":2704.636,"text":"我想停止是最簡單的選擇維持營運背後的決策考量提供旅客安全準點的服務是台灣高鐵作為交通營運業者最基本的任務因此當日自營運前維修同仁及盡力嘗試各種修復方式搶修過程中營運同仁也不斷研擬在安全的前提下可行的營運調度模式降級運轉是為了維持旅客搭車的基本需求而必須承擔的選擇"},{"start":2706.457,"end":2729.183,"text":"5月25號高鐵實際營運122班次較原定班點好的156班次減少34班旅運量原本預估是20萬人次最後實際營運量為18.4萬人次顯示超過九成的旅客確實透過高鐵完成各項重要的旅程但是我們還是必須對於延誤保持抱歉針對本次更換轉測器控制機箱"},{"start":2730.163,"end":2738.048,"text":"電源模組首次出現異常發生也就是為期三年的系統升級計畫至2024年啟動預計今年底完成總計全線458組SMC電源模組5月25日前已順利完成371組更換預計八成但卻從無出現類似的異常狀況"},{"start":2747.894,"end":2766.496,"text":"營運即將滿20年的高鐵各項系統設備使用皆已超過20年繼續進行軟硬體的太舊換新的工作而在兼顧日常營運的太舊換新狀況下維修同仁僅能利用每日營運結束後的4.5小時進行維修時間同時完成例行的保養維修及更新作業挑戰的艱鉅更勝於營運初期"},{"start":2773.049,"end":2782.135,"text":"痛定思痛事件發生以來我們已經透過多次內部的會議擬定短中長期的計畫目標啟動系統認識的強化計畫全面提升高鐵營運服務的這個穩定度"},{"start":2787.062,"end":2803.261,"text":"我想從短期來說當務之急是立刻找出事情的根因因此我們立即暫停了SMC電源模組的更換將此次故障的八項組件拆下並上鎖封存靜待第三方也就是"},{"start":2804.523,"end":2817.978,"text":"鐵道技術研究及驗證中心以及高雄科技大學鐵道技術中心等第三方公正單位與原廠以及高鐵共同調查以確實找出根因這個委託的工作已經完成並且已經目前在進行當中"},{"start":2819.349,"end":2848.186,"text":"中期我們也要求維修單位全面檢視夜間維修作業的規範針對可能影響隔日正常營運的重點維修項目設定最後檢視的時間點並且預留營運的時間避免發生異常後只顧全力搶修而錯失了應變的黃金時間同時透過營運大數據的分析建立營運異常制應變方案模組以縮短決策時間降低對營運的衝擊並且提供旅客預估延遲到達的時間以利於旅客後續的行程安排"},{"start":2849.694,"end":2875.381,"text":"長期而言,台灣高鐵將全面檢視各項營運系統,如耗製、電力、車輛及軌道,原定資產年限為35年的系統,營運已超過20餘年,為確保系統韌性,避免設備老舊影響營運可靠度,將評估投入超過2000億資本支出,提前更新、重置關鍵設備,進一步提升系統穩定及韌性,確保營運安全。"},{"start":2876.221,"end":2901.804,"text":"現在的高鐵所面臨的挑戰與20年前營運初期截然不同在未來關鍵的幾年我們有信心在更新與營運並行的過程當中持續突破新的局面讓高鐵持續向前邁進永續穩健的發展針對此事發間各界的批評與指教我們除了虛心接受深切檢討反省之外今天也在非常誠摯的向各位委員以及國人道歉希望大院給我們建議編冊指導謝謝"},{"start":2906.158,"end":2926.938,"text":"好 謝謝我們史哲董事長報告那我們現在開始進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診我們暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":2937.674,"end":2944.387,"text":"謝謝召委 請一下陳士凱部長 史哲董事長 楊振軍局長 洪輝昇總經理來 請部長 董事長 兩位局長 總經理"},{"start":2952.128,"end":2968.22,"text":"部長我先就教於現在社會大眾非常重視的獨駕的議題一吞米子就是喪屍煙彈的這樣造成獨駕的多起的嚴重交通事故造成"},{"start":2969.401,"end":2993.474,"text":"非常多人的傷亡那社會大眾非常的驚恐以及注意這件事情那現在獨駕就好像是不定時不定向四處亂竄的麻木的一個攻擊的飛彈那對於國人的生命安全造成非常大的一個威脅那卓院長也非常重視這樣相關的議題"},{"start":2995.819,"end":3018.25,"text":"也跟部長也多所討論相關的防治的一個措施那交通部是重要的夜館的一個單位我就針對幾個方向來跟部長討論也希望部長有初步的一個說明第一個就是研議加重獨駕的駕照處分這就是說我們針對獨駕之後要"},{"start":3021.98,"end":3050.559,"text":"延長重新的考照時間而且必須要完成相關的讀引的一個介制另外就是我認為如果是獨駕造成重傷或者是死亡或者是他的駕照遭到吊銷之後他再次的獨駕我認為都要限制終身不得考照部長你簡單說明一下好 向委員報告"},{"start":3051.759,"end":3076.485,"text":"確實獨駕的問題讓社會的大眾非常的驚恐這段時間行政院其實也不斷的在召開會議針對獨駕這件事情法務部就刑法的層面那內政部就執法的層面而交通部的部分主要就是就監理的層面車輛監理的層面我們來做管理那一方面我們對於獨駕的這個加重罰環的部分其實我們已經在研擬我們希望說"},{"start":3077.105,"end":3097.473,"text":"在6月份也就是這個月以內要提出方案我們希望說研發的部分12萬到9萬12萬到9萬12萬是汽車的部分9萬是機車的部分這個部分要提高罰款第二針對委員在提醒的這個駕照的管理的部分確實我們有幾個層面在處理一方面"},{"start":3097.913,"end":3126.245,"text":"他獨駕的部分我們一定會延長未來他整個扣照跟這個吊銷駕照之後重考的這個限制一方面時間會拉長二方面如果致人於傷或致人於死可能終身不能考照這個是我們要努力的方向那另外對於預防性的這個駕照的管理我們也正在研議當中我們希望說未來只要有確定吸毒者確定吸毒者我們對於他的駕照我們先做吊扣跟吊銷的模式"},{"start":3127.065,"end":3148.057,"text":"也就是說只要你確定吸毒我們預防性的就不允許你再開車所以對於駕照的部分我們也會來處理那最後針對車輛沒入的部分也是這兩天大家在討論也是我們交通部一直在研議的方向只要有獨駕的狀況我們過去是有可能是把它扣下來先保管車輛"},{"start":3148.717,"end":3176.655,"text":"但未來我們會朝向沒入車輛的方向來前進也就是說我們要用最高最嚴重的監理的手段來防堵所有可能獨駕的可能性那相關的乘客的連帶責任這個社會有多所議論來部長你簡單說一下你的方向是什麼向委員報告未來只要你知道駕駛有吸毒你明知駕駛有吸毒但你乘坐在車上你沒有阻止他而且讓他繼續在獨駕的話"},{"start":3178.556,"end":3188.506,"text":"那乘客要有共同責任不管有沒有肇事只要抓到你必須要有共同責任而共同的責任我們目前的方向是乘客也要罰一萬五千元"},{"start":3189.5,"end":3208.094,"text":"好 那現在不管是加重獨駕的駕照的處分或者是研議要提高獨駕相關的滑滑額度以及累犯的加重處罰機制甚至是研議吊銷駕照後無照駕駛加重處罰的規定以及研議車輛的這樣的一個獨駕車輛的沒入相關的處置"},{"start":3213.118,"end":3232.231,"text":"基本的方案部長剛才說六月底應該就會都出來是不是對我們最慢六月底前但我們希望越開越好越快越好這個時間也剛好是行政院在開行政院會的時候這有分成兩個部分一個是道安規則一個是道交條例我認為是要同步的進行那道安規則能夠處理的"},{"start":3234.352,"end":3260.988,"text":"我認為是可以優先處理的例如換照訂定相關的戒營的這種條件或是符合條件先發短期駕照的這種機制的討論這個都可以先做那道交條例的部分必須要同步研擬就是包括調整罰則還有累犯的家法沒入車輛同層責任等等也必須趕快提出相關的方案這個我們會加速進行"},{"start":3261.508,"end":3281.542,"text":"那我請高鐵董事長我們針對高鐵的這樣的一個5月25清晨4點27分開始營運之前就發生這樣的一個我們轉車器控制機箱因為要換電源模組那因為電流不穩造成倒插系統的"},{"start":3282.674,"end":3298.537,"text":"定位的訊號消失造成重大的延誤那延誤5分鐘以上總共113班那造成旅客的延誤達到114908人那我要請教一下董事長4點27分發生狀況那你們的應變中心是幾點成立的我們應變中心是5點38分"},{"start":3310.791,"end":3329.106,"text":"5點38分你什麼時候知道高鐵出狀況大概應該就是在5點38分之後我就接到電話就同時成立應變中心那應變中心我知道招集人應該是總經理那我請教一下董事長你們相關的應變中心的這樣的一個分工"},{"start":3330.117,"end":3353.912,"text":"以及你扮演的角色是什麼來簡單說明一下我想應變中心的相關的召集人都是由我們經理部門那最高層級當然就是有總經理召集那他這個代表的意思也就是公司治理跟公司的在業務上的執行是分開來進行尤其在執行面當然是由實際負責以及經驗的總經理部門來進行因此這個分工非常的清楚那也行之多年"},{"start":3354.312,"end":3376.459,"text":"那但是在執行的過程當中隨時當然都會跟我報告那我也隨時掌握所有的訊息那最終當然是由董總來負最後權責的董事長我有意見是在整個5月25號造成113班5分鐘以上的延誤將近11萬5000的旅客交集的不知所措"},{"start":3377.259,"end":3389.938,"text":"你們在處理相關的應變但是社會大眾啊質疑的是在整個過程裡面你們雖然有發言人的制度但是啊沒有看到董事長或總經理啊親自向社會大眾說明來"},{"start":3391.856,"end":3411.532,"text":"這個我是有意見的 來說明一下好 謝謝 謝謝委員我想我們所有政府各級單位事實上在應變的當下我想關鍵的其實是第一線同仁的應變那所以說事實上都是由相關單位的發言機制來發言而不是由首長來親自發言這個我想存在於各單位及各級政府都是如此那事後"},{"start":3411.972,"end":3426.388,"text":"整體的說明當然可以是由首長或者是經理部門或者是董事長來說明事實上在最後的清晨五點的說明也是董事長這是一般機制的一個運行那我認為像這樣5月25號重大的延誤"},{"start":3427.389,"end":3442.476,"text":"董事長或總經理必須在適當的時機因為他營務的是整天的一個車程造成國人的困擾董事長跟總經理應該在適當的時機就必須要出來做說明這個以後要檢討改進委員我們願意來檢討改進因為這個轉車器控制機箱你們認為這個電源模組"},{"start":3447.498,"end":3466.273,"text":"因為電流不穩現在是最終的原因嗎查清楚了嗎跟委員報告我想這個電源模組最終的原因目前現在正在查我請教董事長我請教董事長你們在這個電源模組在更新之前新的電源模組你們有經過測試嗎"},{"start":3468.868,"end":3476.455,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們要到現場去的時候在實驗室都會先測試過沒問題才會帶到現場去好你認為沒問題然後你們換下來之後有問題了然後你們舊瓶當時有沒有說再把舊瓶裝回去試看看"},{"start":3486.732,"end":3492.737,"text":"那你們更換的時候除了你們說之前有經過測試這個電源模組有先測試你們去換的時候有沒有帶備品如果說這個新的你們認為測試沒有問題但是換了上去之後有問題你們有帶備品再做一次更換嗎"},{"start":3512.972,"end":3538.581,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是電臉模子我們這次是換電臉四個電臉模子其實是下面是相關還有很多的設備那一般來講我們到現場去做維修的時候一定會帶必要的備品但是不可能全部的備品都帶那因為這個工作地點離車站很近所以萬一有問題的時候我們就會馬上到車站去就是從車站那邊取備品我們在車站都有備備品像以這一次來講我們這樣花了十分鐘的時間去取備品"},{"start":3539.821,"end":3563.399,"text":"好 現在我要請教一下就是我們相關的故障的這些組件現在是先拆下來嘛 對不對那預計要進行相關的分析那你們這個分析是你們自己內部的一個檢測分析呢還是會送回原廠去做分析呢還是由第三方來進行相關的一個公正的分析"},{"start":3564.019,"end":3588.342,"text":"我們那個交給第三方認證 但是原廠要參與所以目前這個我們都已經談好 已經開始在執行檢測報告預計什麼時候會出來檢測報告的提出時間當然是要提出不可能無限場那這個檢測報告我們也責成第三方跟原廠他們要預定一個時間來報告給我們那目前還沒有報告出來 不會要求要有一個時間限制"},{"start":3589.096,"end":3616.653,"text":"那相關現在目前高鐵的幾組的運作轉測器倒插系統你們在目前的檢測相關的一個檢查在目前有沒有問題這樣這一次出問題的更新工作目前已經暫停我們希望等初步問題釐清以後再持續進行你們現在已經更換了371組嘛是就是在全線458組的大概八成左右啦是沒有錯那故障"},{"start":3617.794,"end":3631.813,"text":"還沒有查清楚之前現在是必須要全部停止更換的這些相關的作業是不是是那最主要說我們針對高鐵的這樣的一個運行我再提醒部長跟董事長"},{"start":3633.196,"end":3652.962,"text":"平日大概平均搭車人次會超過24萬那高峰的假日會超過30萬這個那個延誤對於國人對於高鐵長久建立的安全的形象以及有效率準點的形象都大受衝擊部長最後讓你做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":3654.725,"end":3683.365,"text":"向委員報告這次施行的發生當然對國人的影響相當相當大所以後續的處理包含剛剛石董事長所報告的整體的檢測該怎麼樣找出原因這個我們當然要檢討那另外對於整體的運輸的韌性我們也在做檢討高鐵有狀況的時候台鐵能不能跟得上能夠來協助讓所有的國人不管從哪裡要到哪裡當一個系統失靈的時候或者是阻塞的時候另外一個系統可以跟上這個部分我們會深刻來檢討"},{"start":3684.449,"end":3684.854,"text":"並且做好規劃"},{"start":3686.276,"end":3712.565,"text":"最後因為在整個高鐵延誤的過程裡面當然有透過一些途徑方式來告知相關的旅客但是在整個過程裡面我們對於民眾的資訊他們獲取的途徑還是不足不知道什麼時候在車上或是在車站也不知道相關的這些通車的資訊或是處置的資訊"},{"start":3715.775,"end":3730.56,"text":"還是還是非常不足這個董事長以後都要做全面的檢討這個部分我們會作為檢討的重點謝謝 以上好 謝謝李昆哲委員 謝謝各位接下來我們請侯孟楷委員發言"},{"start":3739.96,"end":3746.222,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳部長跟高鐵石董事長陳部長跟董事長"},{"start":3751.82,"end":3771.332,"text":"好 部長好委員好部長 兩個時事題先請教還是關心獨駕的部分大家都關心那我想本席從三個禮拜前就已經提出來是說本席也已經著手修法版本包括刑法185條以及我們盜交條例就是認為是說獨駕比酒駕更加的可惡可怕為什麼"},{"start":3771.932,"end":3796.295,"text":"因為他有可能像昨天我跟警政署署長來質詢的時候他有可能毒架因為現在用電子菸載具其實是非常方便也因此他有可能是邊開邊吸那其實是更加的危險跟可怕好那如果說真的是這樣的話我想毒架零容忍這是態度問題也因此我們講是說毒架如果說抓到的話很抱歉不是只有駕照吸毒有沒有辦法"},{"start":3797.156,"end":3809.723,"text":"有犯法嘛他比無照駕車的刑責還要高嘛所以如果說他都吸毒吸毒了那你覺得毒寵還會care是說他到底有沒有駕照或是說駕照有沒有過期嘛我想"},{"start":3810.646,"end":3833.081,"text":"以常理判斷很難嘛也因此我們就講是說其實重點在於是那個交通工具不要讓它上路你敢吸毒已經犯法但如果你吸毒又上路就變成是不定時炸彈你有可能危害到其他人的生命財產安全的時候我們就要沒路車輛也因此本席就提出如果說毒價抓到的話就是沒路車輛不管你開什麼車一律沒路"},{"start":3833.641,"end":3848.255,"text":"那現在昨天次長有講是說會往這個方向來研擬那部長你的態度呢向委員報告剛剛上一位委員有詢問的過程當中我也說明的很清楚針對車輛沒入的方向我們確實是朝這個方向而且不管"},{"start":3849.396,"end":3874.151,"text":"獨駕者是不是車主即便不是他的車我們的車輛都要沒入我們朝這個方向在修法如果大院支持的話我們朝這個方向到時候通過我們就照這樣來執行所以沒入車輛的部分我們會來做我覺得本席的版本本席的版本是如果說他不是車主的話那原本車主有善盡告知責任的話那也許不沒入車輛但是駕駛者加重刑責二分之一"},{"start":3874.671,"end":3899.681,"text":"那行政院的版本是說一律沒車輛我覺得這都可以討論到時我們在主條的時候來討論但重點在於是要讓獨駕者知道你吸毒已經錯誤吸毒還開車就是不對就是要把你的車輛沒路那如果說你明明已經沒有車了還去開別人的車或者是去租別人的車譬如說現在有很方便這個租車系統"},{"start":3900.501,"end":3923.934,"text":"他去租別人的車來開你獨駕車來開的話你一樣有責任而且這個責任只會更重我想這是我們共同的共識所以我們就一起來努力我希望到最後逐條討論不管是在刑法或到家條例的時候我們一起展現這樣的態度好不好來另外部長再請教另外第二個部分是因為昨天我看到一個新聞那還有兩個禮拜以前也看到這個轎車平台"},{"start":3925.595,"end":3952.718,"text":"他有說研議要開放我們在台灣用這個摩托車來載客我看第一時間因為現在現行法例是不允許那第一時間交通部也講是說不會開放但我想請教因為昨天我們又看到有新聞那到底有沒有平台業者真的有提出這樣的申請以及我們交通部的態度是什麼向委員報告目前為止平台業者還沒有提出申請我們有在媒體看到這樣的訊息他們打算做這樣子的業務"},{"start":3954.139,"end":3971.351,"text":"那交通部的態度到目前為止並沒有啟動研議這件事但現行的法令跟法規上面是不行的如果真的他們這麼做了真的這麼做了我們該開罰的部分我們會要求地方政府應該要執行他們該有的法令的法則好"},{"start":3972.492,"end":3993.995,"text":"既然沒有研議本席當然東南亞有些國家是有摩托車載客但是以台灣來講我想我們現行的法令是不允許而且我們的相關的民情來說你說真的要開放可能還有很大的空間我本席非常要求交通部如果說真的有業者要來申請的話要非常謹慎的態度"},{"start":3995.577,"end":4001.59,"text":"非常謹慎的態度 好不好來 再來接下來就是回到上個禮拜我們的高鐵的一個延誤的狀況"},{"start":4003.68,"end":4027.255,"text":"我想先請教因為到目前為止我看了整篇的一個報告裡面還是有幾個問題點沒有釐清啦包括第十頁就是說現在我們更換的SNC的這個電源模組已經暫停了有458組那現在已經更換了371組但現在先全面暫停那直到整個釐清報告之後才做一個再後續再做一個進行"},{"start":4027.915,"end":4032.729,"text":"那所以國人想要問的是說什麼時候才能得到最終的結果因為之前更換371組沒有問題啊"},{"start":4035.933,"end":4061.712,"text":"對不對你不是說今天換一個然後就發生狀況嘛今天是前面換了371個我都肯定高鐵的同仁你通篇寫的就說只有晚上凌晨黃金時間4.5小時才能搶修才能去做更新我都肯定大家辛苦因為變成是大家在休閒的時候高鐵同仁以及我們工程人員在做工作那但是371個是成功的那為什麼在這第372個造成異常到底問題在哪裡"},{"start":4066.196,"end":4089.412,"text":"是 謝謝委員的關心我想確實我們不可能無限期的讓這個調查繼續進行那這個調查目前第三方已經組成了是由鐵道技術研究中心以及高雄科技大學的鐵研中心來組成我想是由民間以及辦官方來組成同時會同日本原廠目前已經在進行拆封的工作以及這個相關問題的這個檢視工作所以什麼時間點可以出來"},{"start":4092.515,"end":4101.547,"text":"我也要求他們不需要提出一個時程不過時程他們現在目前還沒有提出來我想在最近他們會提出來以後我想會讓大家社會大眾能夠了解"},{"start":4102.904,"end":4125.352,"text":"所以速度是我想是由他們來提出期程一個月兩個月我想這個要由第三方來提出來我想這個才比較合理但是不能沒有期程這個我可以承諾好那另外就說371組的更換沒有問題對不對那到第372好那請教到目前為止一個禮拜過去有發掘任何的人為破壞嗎"},{"start":4127.728,"end":4149.705,"text":"攻擊恐怖攻擊人為破壞有沒有我想我們不特別預設任何的成因不過我也跟委員報告整個的更換過程我跟董總兩個人我們事實上是有重新請他們再做一遍出來依照SOP做一次流程如果說今天真的有恐怖攻擊或人為破壞的話現在這個是刑事責任當然"},{"start":4150.526,"end":4177.619,"text":"因為這有可能是危及到安全啦因為連部長當天受訪的時候都說不排除恐怖攻擊了所以一時間 第一時間這說實在話 有一說一我們就是論事一時間大家也會造成更加的人心浮動或人心惶惶嘛但我們也不要無限上綱什麼事情都推給好像境外勢力或什麼所以我在這件事情上面我還是秉持要專業專業了解釐清有就有沒有就沒有但不是無限上綱"},{"start":4178.879,"end":4197.519,"text":"今天是董事長現在一個禮拜過去了有沒有查出任何的有可能的外部因素有沒有看到有任何人潛入破壞我們想繼續尊重第三方的查修的過程不過我們還是秉持一個立場就是我們並不預設任何的成因"},{"start":4198.26,"end":4221.323,"text":"那這樣子本席一個建議來啦部長你當天困在哪邊我當天在車上我的說法其實很平衡第一有可能是設備的問題第二有可能是人為的問題那人為的問題又分幾種有可能是維修人員的問題也有可能是操作人員的問題也有可能是"},{"start":4222.424,"end":4244.409,"text":"攻擊的問題都有可能我們不排除任何的成因我的說法是說不排除任何的成因不是說鎖定在攻擊這件事 並不是本席一個建議啦我來確認一下當天您也剛剛石董事長也已經提到了就是你是五點多就是這個緊急醫變中心成立之後你也同步獲得這個消息那什麼時間點確認是說當天確實因為"},{"start":4248.03,"end":4267.832,"text":"上班再急那確認是說當天沒有辦法全線恢復通車可能一一個小時採取三班的一個列車的方式好謝謝委員能夠讓我說明我想因為他的發生時間點4點27分跟我們5點50分的發第一班車市場非常的接近這個時間點的痛苦是在這裡因此我們從4點27分到"},{"start":4271.074,"end":4291.181,"text":"5點06分5點15分我們進行第一階段的搶修能夠請讓他的影響範圍從50多公里降到28公里董事長這我都理解關鍵是能夠在6我現在問的是說什麼時間點確認是說今天當天因為開通在即你沒有辦法搶修完畢那所以只能採取一個小時三班"},{"start":4291.821,"end":4314.458,"text":"我們在將近七點的時候我們才能夠恢復雙線雙向那這個是確保他不會停止如果沒辦法恢復雙線雙向我坦白跟議員報告他就會變成跟2013年一樣的狀況就是他必須要全面停止因此在將近七點的時候恢復了雙線雙向的時候我們在七點半決定八點開始進行一小時三班"},{"start":4314.963,"end":4339.938,"text":"好那八點決定一小時三班是不是也就了解說當天一整天如果說開始一個小時三班之後當天一整天在運行當中沒有辦法再做更積極的一個搶修我們在七點半決策八點鐘實施在當時就確定了一小時三班是不是能夠有進一步搶修我們在十點跟十二點的時候其實都有在進一步搶修對但有沒有辦法搶因為當天"},{"start":4341.121,"end":4361.99,"text":"董事長當天是次長在現場次長跟我們交通委員會報告的一個狀況其實講的是說可能因為運行之後就沒有辦法因為他要持續運行你就沒有辦法再做維修也因此整天的行程應該都只能是當天三班也因此本行那時候才會在交通委員會的時候跟次長講"},{"start":4363.13,"end":4391.759,"text":"這個是給我們所有運輸的專業的一個了解就是說我們才會跟次長講是說那這樣子你要提早公佈比如說晚上當天晚上的旅客如果說他有訂車票了你可能也要先讓他知道就是說今天確實沒有辦法可能全線都是要一天一個小時三班也因此你必須要提早到車站你必須要改坐自由坐而不是你認為是說我現在已經有晚上的車票但是現在搶休也可能搶休好或搶休不好"},{"start":4392.259,"end":4408.633,"text":"我覺得這個適時的資訊的一個傳遞跟表達相當重要是 謝謝委員的提醒各位報告我們在早上七點半決策八點鐘公佈的是全日全天都改成一個小時三班這個很清楚我們並沒有說不改"},{"start":4409.013,"end":4436.399,"text":"沒有告訴大家時間 有告訴大家是全線 全日 一個小時市長如果說這樣的話 您要再確認喔因為當天其實是到我們九點才開交通委員會但是九點開交通委員會的時候為什麼會為了部長沒到以及我們好幾位中南部委員沒有辦法到現場而破例延後四十五分鐘就是因為當天的現場連交通委員會的資訊都是混亂的當天在現場是只有次長跟我們講"},{"start":4437.119,"end":4454.43,"text":"但是其他的媒體朋友或說其他在現場的人員也不清楚說是全天全日都是一個小時三班是直到我們要求直到我們提醒說你應該要散盡你的資訊管道讓所有的旅客因為這個不是"},{"start":4455.33,"end":4479.544,"text":"你有辦法控制的對不對已經發生事情沒辦法我們只能做傷害降到最低傷害降到最低最好的一個方式就是資訊透明公開讓全部的國人知道沒辦法因為遇到這個狀況我們真正能夠把它修復完畢要到整個運作的結束凌晨的時候才能再做後續的一個搶修也因此當天全日是每小時三班自由做我覺得未來"},{"start":4481.277,"end":4505.256,"text":"董事長因為你剛剛講的事情其實是跟當天的一個狀況有點不出入但過去過去但本席現在要提醒的是未來如果說真的當然我們不希望這個事情再發生但如果說有任何這樣發生的時候資訊公開透明準確是確保國人不要造成恐慌跟焦慮最好的辦法是我想這個部分我們會繼續來檢討我想讓大家更能夠清楚謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝洪文凱委員謝謝部長"},{"start":4511.089,"end":4525.813,"text":"我們接下來請陳樹越委員發言 陳說陳說不在 接下來請林俊憲委員發言好謝謝主席 本期邀請我們交通部陳部長來請陳部長"},{"start":4535.476,"end":4558.089,"text":"這幾天大家有在關心那個獨駕的問題那交通部也有大概有表示要來修改我們的道交條例的處罰相關部分對獨駕現在民怨高漲那確實因為他造成了這個社會尤其交通安全那個很大的一個危害幾個是不是給部長當參考"},{"start":4560.765,"end":4577.228,"text":"我們獨駕的件數發生的件數如果是達到刑法的程度就是那個已經吸毒吸到不能安全駕駛那個會用刑法給他移送你看這個件數從最近幾年315件2619件接下來就到8659件三年內增加了到今年大概又到14000件"},{"start":4589.414,"end":4605.439,"text":"大概短短的三四年就增加了四十幾倍好那如果就是要按道交條例被開單這是有抓到的獨家件數有抓到的話我們來看112年2023年是910件2024年就2189件那2025年就到11000件三年內增加12倍"},{"start":4620.44,"end":4645.098,"text":"你看911,2189,11000件然後其中我要給你注意看一個累犯的件數就是說你整體件數增加12倍那累犯的件數就是你曾經獨駕然後再次的獨駕這種累犯的件數竟然增加了18倍你吃到開車一而再,再而三"},{"start":4646.175,"end":4651.9,"text":"獨駕累犯件數112年是163件2024471件到去年將近3000件2947件所以可見有些是獨駕的累犯這種人不能讓他再上路他沒有資格再繼續駕駛所以在未來的修法"},{"start":4675.987,"end":4695.88,"text":"我不曉得教安部第一個除了提高罰則以外有些國外對於毒價因為這個全世界都面臨這樣的一種問題因為毒品現在不斷的變化取得吸食都更容易像這種喪屍煙彈因為你單獨的吸煙也麻煩聽說他們就混在電子煙裡面所以吸食很方便"},{"start":4703.666,"end":4726.705,"text":"然後在年輕人之間就很普遍了那前幾天不是有一個案例嗎他獨駕他開車載的是瓦斯車耶整車都載駕駛 吃凍載駕駛 你看這多危險所以除了罰金的提高以外吊銷他的駕照或者是沒送他的車輛"},{"start":4728.154,"end":4750.148,"text":"那請教一下部長對於未來獨駕道交條例的修法方向還有時間啊交通部目前有沒有相關的想法或者是草案向委員報告這件事其實這段時間大家都相當的在意尤其是委員們大家都非常的在意那我們交通部也加緊腳步針對這件事情我們跟法務部跟內政部"},{"start":4751.168,"end":4778.068,"text":"還有我們交通部還有衛福部我們幾個部門大家一起合作正在做整體的這個研修包含刑罰的部分當然是法務部我們尊重法務部的權責那執法的部分是內政部警政署我們也尊重他們的權責但在監理層面就是委員剛剛所關心的部分是交通部的責任我們該做的那幾個方向委員剛剛所提到的是未來只要獨駕他的罰則我們從三萬跟一萬五提高到"},{"start":4778.488,"end":4783.814,"text":"12萬跟9萬12萬跟9萬開車12萬啦騎機車9萬起跳那委員在講的說如果他累犯其實我目前觀察累犯的機率超過20%到30%的機率非常非常的高累犯累犯的部分第一我們罰則無上限累加上去"},{"start":4800.31,"end":4820.077,"text":"第二因為他只要犯了一次他必然就是無照無照繼續開車他的罰則我們也會加重不會像一般的無照駕駛他會加得更重這個部分我們會加到三萬六一般的民眾可能無照是一萬二他就是三萬六這個部分我們會強制來做那另外針對大家在關心的這個"},{"start":4820.737,"end":4845.412,"text":"吊扣車輛的部分沒入車輛的部分我們現在也在做這方面的研議我們希望未來只要你做獨駕的動作不管你是不是車主我們的車輛直接就做沒入的動作那另外針對乘客的共同責任你明知駕駛在獨駕了你還坐著他的車你還讓他繼續獨駕那你也必須負共同責任這個部分乘客要罰一萬五"},{"start":4846.372,"end":4862.139,"text":"那這些的修法我們會要求我們部裡面在這個月底之前我希望再更快我希望再更快在月底之前能夠送到行政院讓行政院通過之後再送交立法院好 月底啦送院會審查啦是好那我請高鐵董事長"},{"start":4870.067,"end":4898.962,"text":"董事長 是5月25號今天我們要討論的主題高鐵發生了大概最嚴重的一次霧點事件那一天我剛好人也在車上我是6點38分台南站上車到車站的時候完全沒有不知道發生什麼事完全就正常就對了我上車坐了一半大概坐了可能到達台中吧"},{"start":4900.742,"end":4917.277,"text":"開了車子就停了 過台中就停了然後走走停停他才廣播說車輛有異常到台北已經9點20了大概5點 原本是8點04分才到台北結果到差不多9點20幾分才到了大概5點了一個多小時"},{"start":4919.901,"end":4942.146,"text":"但是交通的系統 當然沒有人敢保證不會出狀況不管你是陸運 空運 海運 那高鐵也是那重點就是 那你平常要演練 如果出了狀況 那要怎麼來處理你剛剛說你4點還沒發車以前就知道了 對不對但是我是6點38上車的時候都還正常"},{"start":4946.089,"end":4972.671,"text":"我到台北高鐵那個時候我就看你們的那個APP完全沒有寫啊你知道吧其實很多人都是使用高鐵的T-Express訂車啊它上面一直到九點它才說部分列車延誤實際上你全部都CAN掉了你全部都停了啊但你這個網頁沒有改"},{"start":4975.031,"end":5003.604,"text":"像我第一時間我是去看你這個部分你的APP寫的是部分列車延誤實際上已經完全更換班表了這個你應該要寫清楚還有就是你那個臨機的應變你看這幾天在網路上就很多使用高鐵我們的乘客啊罵翻天啊到車站啊很多到車站 車站也沒有告示牌車站也沒有啊到月台也都不知道啊"},{"start":5005.561,"end":5022.681,"text":"只是後來有聽到廣播啦但實際上大家也不知道發生什麼事情所以像這樣的應變措施啦我想高鐵這次平常有沒有在演練啦你們平常有沒有演練如果車輛半次延誤的時候那大概要怎麼有一個緊急應變來 董事長"},{"start":5024.175,"end":5052.011,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我想委員的這個提醒我們會繼續檢討不過我會請同仁準備好相關的資料就是我們相關APP及簡訊什麼時間推播 推播什麼內容我想這個都可以作證不過我想特別跟委員說明事實上這個從事發的5點38分成立緊急應變中心到7點半決定8點開始改成替代班表當中其實是有經過搶修的過程這個搶修過程才能夠使得有"},{"start":5052.711,"end":5078.722,"text":"一小時三班能夠實施如果搶修的過程沒有進度事實上是必須停止啦所以他確實是有一個當時在時間上確實是一個非常緊急急難的狀況其實特別跟委員說明不是你要讓車上的旅客大概有知道什麼事情才能採取應變嘛比如說我那一天我要主持審查預算你如果讓我知道說這個高鐵絕對會拖很久"},{"start":5080.511,"end":5102.646,"text":"我就可以請其他委員或者是我來通知我們委員會的同仁大家看怎麼處理嘛我也不曉得發生什麼事情因為我想我如果八點零四分到九點開會也許因為我不知道可以五點多少嘛如果我知道這麼嚴重我就可以提早來做一些應變嘛我相信很急"},{"start":5103.837,"end":5119.079,"text":"每一個旅客在車上都有相當相同的那種心情所以說請高鐵這個未來的類似我們不敢說不會發生啦但盡量不要發生啦如果有發生應該就要有一套的應變措施好不好"},{"start":5119.8,"end":5137.046,"text":"謝謝 我想剛剛在我的報告裡面把這個資訊系統及即時資訊的特定化尤其是你的APP啦這個是我的我們都會看你的APP 是對不對 你上面根本沒有寫啊好 謝謝我想問一下還寫什麼部分列車延誤我想我們會把這個資訊調出來 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們林俊憲委員謝謝部長 謝謝董事長我們接下來請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":5156.926,"end":5164.799,"text":"好 謝謝主席 邀請交通部陳部長好 請陳部長高鐵石澤董事長 軌道局楊局長請楊局長"},{"start":5170.714,"end":5190.108,"text":"委員好部長 這個我們交通委員會韓部長大概是525受害者聯盟我住在從桃園出發因為每一天都算好時間坐高鐵所以那一天其實我可以體會到在現場所有人"},{"start":5191.729,"end":5212.199,"text":"剛剛林俊賢委員講完全沒有什麼耗資只有delay 61分鐘然後一堆人擠在那裡就是你的備援體系這等下再談他到底的訊息在哪裡你可以去做台鐵因為台鐵增加了幾班你可以去做高速公路因為在哪裡他增加了幾班其實是完全沒有這個訊息的那我首先"},{"start":5213.82,"end":5235.475,"text":"那天的情況因為很多委員講這個轉折機控制機箱裡面裡面在換那個電池電源的一個模組那發生了這樣一個問題那請教一下這個目前現在鐵道局剛剛我看局長你有報告嗎目前鐵道局跟這個高鐵公司還有原廠"},{"start":5236.796,"end":5251.446,"text":"三個加第四個第三方公正單位剛剛我也聽說了第三方公正單位你們找了兩個嘛第一個是鐵研中心第二個是高科大軌道研究中心那兩個分工是什麼講一下設備會發行啊"},{"start":5256.176,"end":5274.132,"text":"跟委員報告設備目前是在高鐵同時進行查封封條證據我知道嘛你會第三方驗證的時候設備是放在高科大還是鐵人中心不知道設備是在高鐵設備就會放在高鐵"},{"start":5276.607,"end":5298.884,"text":"放在高鐵 是所以大家來就是手摸摸 帶著悲來一氣鐵研中心有這麼多一個設備或者相關的一些巨型的設備 要檢查的設備很多都大型的設備你要真的檢查 空手來帶個電腦 帶個隨手的設備就可以去檢查到的話 我告訴你當天你的工班"},{"start":5299.977,"end":5323.491,"text":"可能比他們對你們這個機械更專業我覺得這個鐵人中心部長是我覺得到底是幾方啊其實你們剛剛早上一直在講第三方公正單位我就想說這個很重要結果我一聽到鐵人中心我真的是嚇了三跳鐵人中心的董事長是誰啊石董你說一下鐵人中心的董事長是誰黃雲貴吳雲貴是我們剛卸任的交通部的司長"},{"start":5330.182,"end":5346.81,"text":"他的執行長是誰陳文德陳文德是我們鐵道局剛卸任的副局長我沒講錯吧石董事長請問一下你自己是鐵研中心的什麼職務我是董事董事嘛"},{"start":5350.188,"end":5372.101,"text":"楊局長你也是董事 就不要講了 全部都交通部底下了包括了吳同明司長 你是監事 請問一下在玩什麼你們在搞什麼 第三方公正單位 鐵研中心 坦白講我不否認他有一定的專業 跟這樣搞 我坦白講不光是 我想說沒有啊 還好你還有一個高科大"},{"start":5372.961,"end":5386.681,"text":"不然這什麼叫第三方啊都自己人左手交右手啊你鐵道局跟著鐵人中心我們三方幾方結果你又是鐵道局局長你又是鐵人中心董事你們都一群人我覺得你們這樣的"},{"start":5390.361,"end":5415.448,"text":"讓大家公信力會有問題所以我是覺得這個事情請部長你要了解一下我們第三方這個整個驗證我們不希望是一套人分在兩邊那你這樣呢最後的結果分家之一像委員報告不只是鐵田中心我們還會再加高科大所以所謂的第三方不是只有一個第三方有兩個第三方所以兩邊都去驗證跟委員報告所以這個部分可以放棄我們希望"},{"start":5416.408,"end":5436.235,"text":"真的這個部分要非常客觀公正專業的第三方驗證這是我們期待的嘛我相信你們也是嘛可以做到吧可以做到 跟委員報告設備當然是以留在高鐵來進行查驗為優先設備如果要離開高鐵比如說到日本原廠或者是到其他地方當然他都必須經過一個審慎的決策"},{"start":5438.476,"end":5464.087,"text":"好 那剛剛因為有一些部長已經解釋過了嘛是遭到攻擊還是耗資異常解釋過了我就不再重問啦平常講那天你們也很努力在搶修尤其第一線的工作人員如果說我們說他們都什麼沒做事或怎樣我覺得這不公平的我們也知道你們很努力啦很努力想要把他去搶修好這一點是一點都沒問題啦所以我也是謝謝我們工作人員的努力"},{"start":5464.767,"end":5484.978,"text":"那我先請教一下目前是四個電源模組電源模組把它保存下來嗎是不是這樣當天所有更換下來的設備都保存下來不只四個電源模組總共有八個單元好除了電源模組是新的要更新的因為剛剛總經理特別說因為在修電源模組的時候"},{"start":5485.938,"end":5513.832,"text":"整個的控制機箱裡面還有一些可能需要更換的你們也帶備品去換嘛所以這整個的都要去做一個處理那那天在整個搶修的一個過程中那日本的一個原廠他是有有沒有這個技師或者相關人員在場支援呢是有的所以在場支援連合你們的人員都沒有辦法處理是那這個部分我是希望能不能給個時間"},{"start":5515.674,"end":5524.75,"text":"你們第三張驗證結果出來因為就問一下你結果出來你們接下來百分之八十了嘛剩下百分之二十是不是要繼續換"},{"start":5526.611,"end":5550.054,"text":"還是要等到驗證出來確定不是這個問題是哪個問題之後才可以繼續做現在的做法是怎樣好 謝謝委員我想目前我們當然還沒有得到這個最終的期程但是我有要求是必須要有期程不能無限制的等待但這個期程我們希望由原廠跟第三方共同來提出所以會有期程有期程以後我們會特別跟委員報告這是第一個"},{"start":5550.214,"end":5572.562,"text":"第二個能夠有初步把一些問題釐清之後我想我們應該要盡快恢復更新的過程所以要快要真的要釐清然後你才有辦法去做下一步這個是不是可以繼續換我覺得這個速度要快那這個請教部長部長那天我們都是受害者聯盟可是你那天請問一下你們是幾點通知我們陳部長"},{"start":5576.124,"end":5592.017,"text":"部長你是幾點知道應該第一時間有通知交通部應該第一時間有通知交通部但是要會延誤多久其實我在搭車的前一刻還不曉得延誤多久大概知道會延誤但不曉得有多久這就是我覺得一個"},{"start":5593.499,"end":5610.536,"text":"蠻大的問題啦剛剛特別談到風險管控風險管控就是我們對於風險會發生這樣的一個情況我們是要是高估還是低估其實就是要我們覺得要專業的一個判讀要專業的判讀那尤其部長甚至有時候"},{"start":5611.317,"end":5626.85,"text":"很嚴重的問題行政院長都要知道他知道的你不要給他講我們什麼東西壞了你本來就應該要把正確相對的判讀資訊給他如果他知道像我到最後可能一個小時以上快兩個小時都有這種情況像"},{"start":5629.072,"end":5644.023,"text":"這個台中過來你也坐兩個小時嘛那我是沒辦法我是投降了我是走還好我也走季節啦慢慢突突突突到台北來每一個人都想辦法去解決這個問題可是我覺得部長因為他可以跨單位的要去處理很多的問題"},{"start":5644.904,"end":5668.195,"text":"如果你們真的沒有辦法判讀那我就覺得是不是就像總經理你們在解讀這樣的一個故障每個小時派三班會延誤多少你們是覺得把它估得太輕鬆了如果你是把它正確就知道會一兩個小時這時候如果部長知道他在第一時間就會不管是國道客運"},{"start":5669.395,"end":5684.272,"text":"不管是我們台鐵公司他在很早的時候不像台鐵公司不會他說十點才開始配合十點左右才開始配合那這個的部分部長沒有得到正確的訊息所以他上了高鐵如果人家你跟他講說有可能會延誤一兩個小時"},{"start":5685.734,"end":5708.844,"text":"搞不好部長會自己開車所以我覺得這個訊息的準確度對於決策者是非常重要那我要拜託部長那未來跟我們的高鐵或者台鐵都一樣發生這樣的一個重大的一個大霧點的時候我覺得第一時間要誠實甚至要寬鬆的去估就是說真的可能會最嚴重是如何好不好那再來就是當天"},{"start":5709.784,"end":5736.476,"text":"我們發覺高鐵站你要接駁很多其實每個站都不一樣每個站都不一樣有些跟火車站連在一起他有選擇有些跟火車站有距離他沒辦法這時候你要有接駁車甚至這個比較中部以北的是不是用國道客運直接來帶他看停止站去跑都有可能那我在這裡是拜託部長在地方政府的集結那一天我"},{"start":5739.257,"end":5761.769,"text":"桃園站季節就在旁邊啦但沒有辦法他完全沒有接到任何應變的指示如果他就在同一站他如果那一天他最終在台北火車站他板橋站沒辦法停所以未來是不是就桃園這個角度每個站不同的解決的策略桃園站我們是不是能夠協調季節能夠"},{"start":5764.75,"end":5779.8,"text":"桃園他18站到台北他至少上下班時間他能夠跑一班或者兩班這個部分可不可以朝中方來做謝謝委員的這個指示啦我覺得這個部分相當好我們未來會來做"},{"start":5780.7,"end":5799.671,"text":"那也跟委員報告當天早上我其實九點多還在車子裡面的時候八點多在車子裡面的時候我就已經打電話請台鐵公司準備所以他們十點才有辦法馬上增加這個運具聯防的部分那委員剛剛所提到的加派這個接駁車的部分也確實我在當天開緊急應變會議的時候因為我們不確定隔天能夠修得好"},{"start":5800.151,"end":5828.321,"text":"所以隔天的部分我們確實也有針對桃園到台北或者是新竹到台北透過國道客運該怎麼樣接駁的部分我們也有做出了計畫那我們現在在指示的就是說機場捷運的部分我們也有討論過不過機場捷運因為它的那個量能已經非常緊繃了那所以我們也會把它放在最後該使用的時候我們還是會使用上跟委員報告其實一個小時加一班我覺得是絕對有可能去協調的好不好這個部分要預備啦"},{"start":5828.721,"end":5851.837,"text":"真的我們不希望發生這樣的一個事情嘛但是發生了那這件事情對台鐵的經驗也是說你們要料題從寬還是從嚴我覺得要很真實的你們在現在是已經發生了回推為什麼會延一兩個小時你們自己要回推作為你們經驗累積非常重要的部分再來我希望高鐵公司的董總我真的是要"},{"start":5853.195,"end":5872.425,"text":"請你們在整個風險管理跟內部管理真的我覺得要多花一點精神尤其像風險管理這個問題這是很嚴重的525的一件事去年12月我們跟你要資料去年12月你們也是一樣在你們那個叫監控平台那個叫什麼"},{"start":5873.766,"end":5902.078,"text":"那個叫什麼行控中心那個行控中心去年12月也是因為更換軟體設備而一個不小心也弄了一些事情所以我覺得在整個風險管理是要能夠用心的那最後我也跟石董事長當然您使者您有您的哲學但我覺得不要讓人家感覺不要讓人家感覺就是小事我們高調露臉"},{"start":5903.198,"end":5924.734,"text":"大事的時候我們低調 神隱這一次給很多人感覺就是這樣我們看到你去日本不管自費 花幾百我們通通都不管廁所照一張相回來我知道因為你是學文的學文化的學行銷的我懂你看到這個機會為高鐵公司整體行銷聽起來也沒有錯可是一次"},{"start":5926.076,"end":5933.576,"text":"噴漆 去一次座椅 設備 去一次可是你這樣的搞法這樣的積極程度發生這麼大的事情的時候"},{"start":5934.537,"end":5960.985,"text":"你們只是發新聞稿我覺得這個部分跟民眾的期待是不一樣畢竟整個高鐵看得到的這個車廂好棒我知道大家都動我們要看得到的光鮮亮麗民眾也看得到可是問題有很多看不到的基礎的一個建設我是這邊拜託我們的部長跟我們高鐵台鐵大家真的要努力把風險管理做好謝謝我們會深刻檢討 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":5963.888,"end":5967.83,"text":"好 謝謝盧明珍委員 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長接下來我們請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長 高鐵石董事長 台鐵馮總經理好 請陳部長 董事長 總經理"},{"start":5993.644,"end":6008.129,"text":"部長、董事長、總經理早我想5月20號那一天我也是在車上跟部長跟好幾位委員同仁都一起在車上那我早上6點55分從高雄坐坐在這邊應該是10點12分"},{"start":6010.33,"end":6030.302,"text":"我想當然這個我們今天是針對高鐵霧點的一個專案報告那我想剛剛前面有幾位委員大家都有提到這個事故我想這個應該要被檢討也應該要找出原因但是我想身為這個交通部身為主管機關未來對於不管是高鐵也好台鐵也好"},{"start":6031.042,"end":6047.362,"text":"這個我們一連串出現這樣的一個設備故障甚至是污點的一個狀況是不是會讓外界質疑我們台灣的軌道運輸有出現老化維護不足甚至是風險管理失能的一個問題部長我想針對這部分您自己本身現在有什麼看法"},{"start":6047.942,"end":6073.109,"text":"像委員報告我們對於台鐵跟高鐵的要求都一樣我們希望他第一要安全第二要精準第三我們的這個系統的可靠度也就是說他的韌性要夠高那這個部分我們鐵道局其實在所有的事件發生之後都會介入調查跟了解那並且最重要的是要討論出說未來要怎麼樣改善所有的機制希望他可以做到更好更安全那更有韌性"},{"start":6073.869,"end":6086.456,"text":"是 我想我們應該印象中7月份我們還要去接新車回來嘛是 沒錯那當然 董事長 那未來新車的部分我們有沒有針對這樣的一個事故會不會影響到新車的一個銜接的問題"},{"start":6087.783,"end":6116.129,"text":"跟委員報告我們不會影響新車的銜接不會啦好董事長我想說那根據我們目前掌握到媒體的這個報導這次的苗栗的耗資事故影響11萬人那我們的這個預計損失的賠償金額有高達3500萬那甚至還有一些的這個因為高鐵趕不上飛機那你們到底你們實際上你們掌握到影響的人次跟這個金額到底是多少錢有沒有一個具體的數字"},{"start":6117.029,"end":6145.347,"text":"我想這個就陳委員剛剛所講的這個人次就是11萬多人金額是3500萬對那依照我們的旅售與旅運契約我們當然就是這個該全額這個退費或者是該半額退費的我們都會依這個方式來進行就照規定來走是那有沒有延伸到其他的部分比如現在很多人或許他還沒有這個提出這個額外的賠償甚至不然還要告你們有沒有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":6146.792,"end":6159.579,"text":"目前我們是沒有接受到要告我們那當然是有接受到詢問說這個衍生的賠償的不能進行不過但是我們還是必須遵守這個跟乘客的這個旅運契約我們確實沒有辦法這個"},{"start":6163.101,"end":6177.808,"text":"負擔因為延誤所延伸的相關的所有的費用我想這個如果都是交通行業都是機構都是一體適用的那我們當然還是最後對大家很抱歉我想最終是不要讓這樣的事情再發生"},{"start":6179.042,"end":6193.473,"text":"因為我想那天我在自己在車上當然我們這個整個我們的列車長也好包含我們這個很多的乘客也好我們大概每一段時間大概我們就他就會提醒說這個有訊號異常那請大家稍等待"},{"start":6194.974,"end":6223.274,"text":"這個走走停停的狀況很嚴重那剛剛我也特別感受到說這個因為像我們是從高雄上我們沒有選擇性但其他站要上的人是不是可以事先預告這樣的一個狀況他們不一定要搭高鐵他們可以做其他的選擇有公路運輸也好或者是鐵路運輸也好我想這個應變上的處理確實我們做的比較不夠也應該要檢討未來這樣的應變的一個機制部長這個部分是不是可以再做進一步的一個檢討"},{"start":6224.645,"end":6250.749,"text":"是這個部分我們有請高鐵公司必須要做檢討幾個部分一個部分是針對延誤的時間有沒有辦法先讓旅客可以知道如果知道的話大家比較好安排時間因為運具有很多重的選擇可以讓大家可以去選擇其他的運具那另外針對這個退票的機制我也拜託高鐵公司能夠來做研議讓大家可以做線上的退票的機制"},{"start":6251.329,"end":6275.667,"text":"不然我在現場我是看到很多的人在排隊要做退票也好或者是說要做這個延誤的證明也好但是像我自己到目前為止我也沒有接到我們公司有任何一通訊息說你可以退票 也沒有啊 沒有通知我我認為是不是應該我們主動要提醒一個月之內你應該要來退票好 了解我們會來進行我覺得這個應該最起碼我們善後的部分應該可以做得更好一點吧"},{"start":6276.69,"end":6289.875,"text":"像我自己本身到現在也還沒有退搞不好我一個月之後也忘記了要去退票所以我想應該是應該主動我們應該主動我們應該朝這個方向努力是反正都有因為我們訂票的時候像我們有用APP就有有電話嘛八個簡訊總應該可以吧應該更積極一點這個我們繼續來檢討好"},{"start":6293.737,"end":6301.121,"text":"好那我想根據我們這個台鐵的這個統計事故2022年我們總共行車異常發生了616件那到2024年增加到961件這兩年增加了高達56%那我想部長跟總計當然我知道這個"},{"start":6313.227,"end":6330.938,"text":"不管是高鐵藥台鐵藥現在都是我們很重要的一個大眾運輸的一個管道那乘客量也非常非常的高那高鐵的部分從113年的異常事故25件到114年也增加了這個43件增加了72%我想我們未來還是要針對這樣的一個設備的問題或者是"},{"start":6334.08,"end":6358.809,"text":"事故的原因的調查甚至人為的因素應該要全面來做一個檢討所以我想這邊我有三點的一個要求第一個針對行車異常的事故應該我們要盡快提出分析報告第二個針對高風險的一個設備應該全面來盤點甚至做改善第三個針對台鐵跟高鐵設備老舊的部分應該提出一個改善的時程表部長跟董事長總經理能不能做到"},{"start":6359.995,"end":6379.008,"text":"跟委員特別說明我想高鐵的異常事故您所提的就是去年比前年多20件其實全部都是非可歸則於公司的天災造成我沒有做過分析就是說這20件的增加是因為去年我們的地震颱風跟相關的天災"},{"start":6379.748,"end":6399.722,"text":"特別頻繁所至平均而言可歸則於公司的事件其實並沒有在平均值以外特輔特別的增加都還是在平均值我們平均值大概一年可歸則於公司的大概是20件左右因為我們這個部分會特別來努力是 那台鐵公司我是不是請馮總你回答一下"},{"start":6401.263,"end":6415.811,"text":"報告委員 委員所提的三項措施我們都可以做到我們也會來確實落實那簡要說明一下這個事件的調查跟誠意分析我們現在每天早上都會進行高階技術匯報由我們總經理副總經理來做檢討那每週也會做這個經營管理會議來檢討"},{"start":6421.394,"end":6440.169,"text":"那高風險的設備感謝政府的支持我們現在已經全面在盤點在更新所以我們目前在台鐵的相關的包括我們的轉車器包括我們的耗資系統電力設備車輛都在持續的更新改善我們預計118年底全面都會來做更新完成以上"},{"start":6440.549,"end":6463.606,"text":"另外我要再提出一個問題因為我們馬上這個訊息已經來了馬上就面臨我們這個颱風也好 豪雨也好那我記得上次委員會我們台鐵有特別提出了要用一百零五萬來購置無人機來巡檢一個軌道我認為這是一個非常好的措施而且我認為台鐵還過於保守因為我們現在基層的同仁人力也不足"},{"start":6464.366,"end":6489.606,"text":"那我們的這個軌道這麼長我想應該要透過這樣無人機的一個設備可以強化我們的一個巡檢的一個密度但是很遺憾這個到最後這個我們的這個由委員提出的這個全案刪除那後來又提到這個全案保留到黨團來協商部長我想我們應該要支持這樣的一個計畫啦應該要給台鐵更多的一個資源我們當然會支持並且也希望說未來的步伐能夠越跨越大"},{"start":6490.772,"end":6507.46,"text":"那另外最後想針對獨駕的問題剛剛有很多委員在提那未來我想我還要提出另外一個看法就是針對職業駕駛的部分因為畢竟這個他們每天的這個上路的這個數量跟所謂的一個交通的危害性我想不輸一般的駕駛"},{"start":6509.861,"end":6531.937,"text":"那是不是我們現在交通部有針對陸運特定人員的一個尿液採檢或者是市區的這個汽車客運業者跟公路駕駛的一個抽檢的一個部分進行25%的一個抽檢我們有做這樣的一個動作嗎是 向委員報告我們這個部分的尿液抽檢都有定時在做 定期在做未來有可能擴大到其他的這個包含計程車或是"},{"start":6533.277,"end":6552.73,"text":"貨運的一個司機嗎我們會看評估現在的狀況如果當然有延伸到其他的運具上面我們該做的都會做那目前我們正在研議跟討論當中部長你看我們的這個數據114年11月到今年的4月份光是這個獨家的取締從1474件成長到8355件成長了4.6倍這個數據非常非常的恐怖"},{"start":6562.116,"end":6590.535,"text":"那所以我想未來我也要求交通部在一個月之內針對加嚴獨駕的這個吊扣駕照的處置第二個研議這個職業駕駛定期毒品篩檢的一個機制第三個應該要儘快完備毒品拖曳快篩的準確度跟相關的賠償的一個處理我想因為包含現在不是只有交通部的問題包含我們的警察同仁他們在執法上面他們壓力也很大萬一這個採檢有陰性陽性的一個誤差的時候"},{"start":6592.236,"end":6603.085,"text":"部長這部分能不能再具體說明一下未來我們的做法向委員報告在採檢的部分今年會暴增有可能是因為我們去年11月19號之後我們開始做這個唾液的檢測在11月19之前去年11月19之前沒有唾液檢測"},{"start":6610.231,"end":6629.758,"text":"那今年因為有唾液檢測所以很快速的就可以判讀出說他是不是毒價所以今年當然抓到的數字會非常多不過這也表示真正的毒價的問題也是相當相當的嚴重所以我們在照委員剛剛的指示我們在一個月之內針對委員剛剛所建議的各個方向其實我們都會來做研議"},{"start":6630.718,"end":6647.174,"text":"那研議出來之後第一會向社會來報告第二也會向委員特別來報告說我們研議之後的這個罰則的提高那剛剛有其他委員在問的時候其實我有提到獨駕的罰則當然提高相當多第二針對車輛沒入的部分不管"},{"start":6648.334,"end":6672.288,"text":"車輛是不是獨駕本身的這個車輛是不是車主我們只要有獨駕我們全部都會沒入然後再來坐在車上的知道你明知他在獨駕你還讓他繼續獨駕的乘坐的人乘客也有共同責任這個部分也會加進來我想這個我們要共同來努力啦今天避免這個減少這個事故的發生也避免無辜的人受到傷害謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6676.226,"end":6701.935,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長我們接下來請許智傑委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請部長跟高鐵董事長好 請陳部長跟施董事長"},{"start":6708.479,"end":6735.387,"text":"委員好部長董事長好我想這個大霧點的問題大家都問很多了那我們再一次提醒就是問題的查免以及未來的預防這個希望說我們江東部跟高鐵能夠盡量把它研究清楚為了不要再有類似情況發生或者是緊急應變可以做得更好"},{"start":6737.588,"end":6746.116,"text":"好 今天是6月4號 那個一個中國悲傷的日子部長你記得你去年6月10號到哪裡嗎"},{"start":6747.662,"end":6772.313,"text":"去年6月4號委員這個上面有顯示我應該是在高鐵的高雄站是啊 這個去年6月4號其實我們能夠爭取到這個建設也真的很謝謝張宏佩跟高鐵就當時有承諾嘛那就是委託工程顧問公司評估然後今年3月就可能開工這個其實是高雄一個很"},{"start":6773.462,"end":6790.523,"text":"重大也是一個大家引領期盼的建設但是我最近問到好像目前高鐵打算暫緩或者是不做這個不知道部長知不知道我是不是請市董事長來回答這個問題"},{"start":6791.978,"end":6812.779,"text":"跟委員報告我想基本上這個過温公司的基本的規劃已經完成了那由於國內現在目前這個營造都在蓋廠房因為半導體太熱的關係那以及這個地下工程事實上是一個靈軌工程而且是一個穿移改移的工程因此我們特別謹慎"},{"start":6814.02,"end":6833.626,"text":"我們事實上在民間針對相關不同的營建商大概訪價訪談了大概超過20件確實廠商目前手頭上對於做這個工程的意願非常的低這是第一件事情第二個就是說我們未來事實上新車導入之後馬上面臨增班的狀況"},{"start":6835.767,"end":6864.266,"text":"這個施工會造成我們現在三個月台會必須減少一個月台一個月台施工完以後才能增加第二個月台的施工那這個我們現在正在評估對於增班的影響也就是考慮到說增班的穩定度跟施工的先後順序我們必須要謹慎考量我想大家都知道嘛不要到最後車子有了結果增班發不出去啊所以這個我們很審慎在評估考量這個也跟委員誠實報告"},{"start":6865.967,"end":6889.734,"text":"對 所以我其實今天要特別提醒的就是說這個問題不是今天才知道這個問題在去年的時候 6月4號的時候我們到現場的時候雖然當時不是石董事長但是我們當時就知道你要做月台一定是會要輪流嘛這個是去年就知道的事嘛"},{"start":6891.258,"end":6912.232,"text":"跟委員報告去年的6月4號雖然我不在不過確實是經過顧問公司進場實際計算之後才發覺他的施工時間比我們想像的長非常的多那這個也就會造成其實未來班表調整的影響衝擊幅度更大所以這個其實是最近才發生的事"},{"start":6912.332,"end":6930.326,"text":"所以現在就是新車進來總共的車輛用我們如果是用現在有六個月台嘛一次施工是會動到兩個月台嘛簡單講現在是三個月台有六個車道嘛那如果是動到一個月台就剩下四個車道嘛"},{"start":6931.707,"end":6957.819,"text":"那四個車道就新舊車的調度所以這個案子到底未來可能做還是不做這個案子終究是要做但是我們是在評估是在增班班表調整之後做還是同步做我們擔心的是同步做對於左營站的增班會有影響而左營站的增班除了影響到高雄人的權益之外也會影響到權限的調度"},{"start":6959.202,"end":6982.688,"text":"那當然我們是運作順暢為主嘛其實你如果是慢因為你新舊調度我想試驗可能最多三個月到半年吧不會超過吧沒有 這個整個穩定期要兩年因為我們的交車是要透過一年的時間才逐步交車完成穩定期要兩年交車就交一年穩定至少也要再一年所以總共是兩年"},{"start":6984.119,"end":7006.73,"text":"所以兩年之後到底可不可能做我們的大方向是要做但是必須在不影響調度以及增班的狀況底下做這個目前都還在評估當中如果可以同步做我們會願意同步做如果不能同步做我們會以增班調度為優先我想這個如果有真的有新的考量因為我們一直引領期盤3月就要重新"},{"start":7008.737,"end":7036.944,"text":"也跟委員誠實的報告去年6月4號的時候我們第一個沒有想到說它的工期這麼長第二個我們也沒有顧慮到說在失座的時候那個月台的兩個軌道的陣線上的電源必須要斷電但是我們顧及到工程安全我們已經決定如果要失座就要斷電一旦斷電我們連通行的功能都失去了所以它不只是增班調度而且連進基地的功能都會影響所以我們確實非常謹慎的在評估"},{"start":7038.064,"end":7060.632,"text":"OK 勇敢面對錯誤 其實做一個最新的決定我們是可以接受啦那不過就是說 有這個改變我交通委員都不曉得這個改變還沒有定案 我只是說我們現在正在謹慎嚴肅的在評估所以現在是暫緩也沒有暫緩 因為我們事實上都還沒有進行發報"},{"start":7062.576,"end":7089.367,"text":"我們沒有暫緩我們三月嘛本來是預計今年三月嘛那現在已經delay了吧我們本來就是依照原本的計畫在三月之前要進行發包在發包之前尋商訪商在尋商訪商的過程當中我們才發解新的問題也就是說廠商對於這個靈鬼施工的風險的考量比我們想像的更嚴肅所以我們才進入了更實質的評估了"},{"start":7090.467,"end":7117.095,"text":"好那後面應該是進度可不可以請董事長概括一下後面的狀況你說分這兩種情況嘛我想是不是秦委員再給我們一點時間我們把整個對於增班調度的影響以及先後順序做一個更清楚的釐清因為其實上新車導入的新的班表也現在正在研議當中這一切都在現在進行式當中不是我們故意要延誤新車進來去年也知道今年新車要進來啊"},{"start":7118.38,"end":7132.673,"text":"去年知道新車進來可是去年並不知道新車每一台交車的準確時間現在我們知道了知道每一台車的準確交車時間以後我們才能夠進行每一台車增班對實質上的班表的確定的發展"},{"start":7133.354,"end":7155.258,"text":"OK 那什麼時候大概可以把這個時間序包括新車進來 包括調度進來包括考慮一起做或考慮等全部都調動完成之後來做這個時間序可不可以大致上列一下至少因為我突然問到說這個暫緩的計畫我是覺得很訝異啦"},{"start":7158.359,"end":7177.505,"text":"沒有我再一次跟委員強調我們並沒有暫緩的計畫我只是說我們現在在評估各種發生的新的情勢有一旦有評估的結果明確的話我會親自跟委員說明OK好所以這個希望說把這個弄清楚我想我們高雄人引領其反力也是高雄出身的我也是對阿雄雄這個錯誤我感覺說這到底是其實"},{"start":7183.16,"end":7202.141,"text":"你們內部可能也會承認說到底是暫緩還是不做沒有不做但是我們只是先後順序的問題OK所以一定會做一定會做一定會做好那就聽我們施董事長這句承諾對但是增班我想一般民眾會覺得可能應該是優先"},{"start":7203.682,"end":7226.364,"text":"當然正班優先啊你要調度順暢才來做嘛這個是一定的嘛所以我們是擔心說不要因為這些問題就不做啦是所以一定會做這個承諾我希望說施董事長跟我們高鐵所有的人員還有交通部長因為什麼時候做在delay兩年你們不知道都又換到哪個位置去了也不記得在這個位置"},{"start":7227.765,"end":7255.256,"text":"所以這個事情我希望說這個是可以執行下去那相關的人員也必須把這個問題把它keep住好 謝謝那我們今天至少有個結論嘛就是一定會做OK好 謝謝部長跟董事長都OK是 這個沒有問題一定要做好 OK 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝許志堅委員謝謝部長 謝謝董事長我們接下來請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":7260.762,"end":7273.443,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請這個董事長 石董事長來 新董事長總經理也一起好了 部長你就坐在那裡聽就好台鐵坐著認真聽 這要教大家有關的"},{"start":7276.053,"end":7296.034,"text":"這個上次發生這個大delay,我也是確定啦,林俊憲也是確定啦,規定的就對了因為我們在車上啊,我們就關心發生什麼事嘛,然後我們在車上,石董事長你有沒有當時我們車上的廣播說什麼我想廣播應該只有講說他會delay,但是並沒有講delay多久好,那個是罐頭的"},{"start":7297.864,"end":7321.801,"text":"每幾分鐘講的內容都一模一樣那變成我們坐在車上的人只能有外部資訊那你們外部資訊發布的速度也很慢因為我知道你們在乎完整的資訊所以第一時間包括你的網站你的APP或者是各式各樣你們並沒有很明確的告訴大家有狀況"},{"start":7323.325,"end":7339.298,"text":"因為你們要一篇完整的論述可是邏輯上應該是很快告訴大家你們要研究怎麼去處理這件事情這個我們會檢討第二個這個案子發生是凌晨四點多有狀況 開始尋五點多請問你們最後決策的點是幾點"},{"start":7347.236,"end":7363.349,"text":"我們從4點27分之後開始搶修所以確實是把管制的範圍不是我說你們班表調整的那個最後決策7點半7點半7點半全都發出來對我們已經發了部分的資料好那這個事情有沒有要調整"},{"start":7364.871,"end":7388.724,"text":"跟委員報告 這個也是個困難的抉擇啦因為我們是在將近7點的時候 也就是7點的時候我們終於搶通了雙線跟雙向部長 為什麼會困難的抉擇 為什麼因為要搶通雙線雙向 才能夠實施降載的營運否則就必須要停止那決策人是誰有我們這個EOC那他有什麼邏輯可以決策"},{"start":7392.546,"end":7422.001,"text":"跟委員報告一下 基本上我們一開箱就以這個配置 憑經驗好了 我這樣叫憑經驗嘛不是我聽我講 你是憑你的經驗 憑你的推理 憑你的判斷對不對那好 現在發生四點多 那我請問一下 如果這事情發生在五點發生在六點 發生在凌晨三點 發生在早上八點發生在不同路段 就發生在台北板橋 發生在南港台北而已"},{"start":7423.564,"end":7443.193,"text":"你們的答案會不會不一樣會 不一樣會不一樣那這不一樣的劇本在哪裡基本上是我們看看鎖定的期間一個小時可以進去洗盤像以這個case來講那這個標準在哪裡這個標準已經形成手冊嗎沒有 這個要看你的每個那誰決定嘛就看董事長 你知道你聽得懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":7444.232,"end":7462.065,"text":"你不可以靠中經理靠資深副總大家用聰明你知道嗎我做簡單的解釋第一個啦這個行控上的為了安全一旦有異常事件他第一個會要求降速降速是降到5公里以下跟降到45公里以下結果就不一樣我現在問的就是說"},{"start":7464.326,"end":7478.176,"text":"套炸凌晨一點發生在台北板橋凌晨一點發生在板橋台中發生在哪裡就每一個區段發生不同時間你要決策的時間也都不一樣嘛因為你有發車時間嘛你有從台中發的有從高雄發的對不對有從南港發的嘛每一個決策狀況都不一樣這個時候不能只開應變中心會議然後有一堆人坐在那裡說所以我們決定怎麼做不是這樣搞的啦"},{"start":7491.666,"end":7495.552,"text":"這件事情你們一定要編好所有的劇本只要發生這個狀況一查表就是這個狀況後面所有跟的節奏都一樣這件事情董事長"},{"start":7505.492,"end":7514.821,"text":"你必須把他很重視 你不能夠單單靠你的同仁啊每個人用每個人的經驗 各部門在那邊 運務部門也在那邊 到那邊說我現在車要怎麼調 你有車嗎 我們的站路能不能處理我們沒辦法處理我們有沒有接駁車 那接駁車怎麼聯絡 那整條路下去整個應變中心沒辦法處理啦"},{"start":7527.728,"end":7556.255,"text":"跟委員報告 我們不是沒有劇本啦但是我想我關於劇本是不是能夠更精密更詳細 我這個我願意檢討好 這個檢討 我跟你講這個很重要 包括台鐵也是一樣這不可以說都靠應變中心我知道你們有成立應變中心裡面每個人都是專家因為每個人都已經營運高鐵那麼多的時間 各種狀況都遇過但是這一次的專業都台中苗栗這個題目啊 如果你交給一般的學者他會給你一堆答案啦"},{"start":7557.332,"end":7580.927,"text":"我第一時間遇到這個的時候我的想法是說那你既然是台中苗栗那你不可以開台北台中嗎你不可以開苗栗高雄嗎這樣一直對開不行嗎確實不行為什麼不行因為高鐵它其實是需要有這個基地跟整備站才能夠發車那我當天我可不可以台中高雄這樣對開可不可以台中高雄可以對開對嘛"},{"start":7584.482,"end":7597.092,"text":"可以嘛是那我可不可以台北台中對開可是問題是台北新竹對開台北新竹對開沒有辦法為什麼因為新竹沒有我們這個整備的這個基地好那台中高雄可以"},{"start":7597.639,"end":7619.705,"text":"台中台北可以但是問題是他對行車效率會更差會比你們現在後來編的效率差嗎會台中高雄對開喔台中高雄對開台中高雄的部分效率會高但是我們還是要考慮到長城旅客而且長城旅客是我們主要的客源那我現在講這些有在你們劇本裡面嗎有有在你們劇本裡面所以你們後來決定沒有要開台中高雄對開對"},{"start":7621.165,"end":7642.574,"text":"這個都在你們劇本裡面那下一次再遇到類似類似的狀況在不同的區間你們都有辦法很快決策如果有在劇本裡頭如果有在劇本裡頭一查表一查就這種狀況接下來後續採取的策略都有決策的速度會很快是跟委員報告我想最關鍵的一件事情是我們有六成的旅客事實上是在台中以北啦"},{"start":7643.354,"end":7669.869,"text":"這個我了解所以台中跟台北之間的運行變成是我們所要的考量我相信你們你今天公開跟大家講你們有劇本所以接下來的角色並不會很困難因為劇本都有劇本都有任何區間在任何時間點查到有狀況查到查不到最後要做角色劇本一出現一查所有後面的配套全部都會出現對吧所以角色的時間會很快不會有困難啊"},{"start":7670.709,"end":7690.778,"text":"對 我們會繼續深化會檢討那不會有困難嗎我們一定要不能有困難來應付那這次為什麼有困難其實不是有困難這次事實上是剛好在發車時間所以我們事實上搶修的過程是佔用了時間我們事實上是希望把它搶修完成讓它恢復正常營運是到七點半我們才確定雖然已經搶修到雙向了"},{"start":7691.812,"end":7714.822,"text":"所以說但是必須要降載如果連雙項都不能搶修事實上7點半的決策會是停止好那請問董事長這一個決策的最高決策是你嗎最高決策是由總經理召集最後呈報到我這邊確定還要呈報你那你有在應變中心嗎有啊我在應變中心選主理不是啊我是說最後總經理決定之後還要報給你是那為什麼不是你決定呢"},{"start":7715.837,"end":7727.715,"text":"因為我們應變中心的召集員在執行上的召集員是有總經理我是希望說接下來不管發生在哪一個時間點哪一個區間發生的狀況確定沒辦法排除了"},{"start":7728.254,"end":7751.375,"text":"要做決策了 劇本一打開 所有後面配套都有了所有後面配套都有了 包括是不是要啟動解剖然後是不是每天有多少班次 商務艙怎麼處理是不是要全車自由坐 區間變成怎樣我相信你們做得到 但是請董事長再把公司這整套的劇本 跟後續處理的這些內容"},{"start":7752.256,"end":7768.446,"text":"演練一下 是演練一下 嘗試演練一下讓這個同仁全部繃緊身心因為什麼時間點會發生這一種無法預期的錯誤這個可能都是要先預防的是 謝謝 我們會深入檢討好 謝謝好 謝謝王一川委員 謝謝石董事長我們現在請陳青龍委員發言陳青龍委員發言之後我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7783.479,"end":7794.663,"text":"好 謝謝教委 謝謝主席那我請我們交通部長還有我們的高鐵的董事長是董事長委員好部長好"},{"start":7802.065,"end":7809.287,"text":"那部長我記得你在今年年初3月份的時候有參加台鐵改制為公司化的一個週年慶也表揚我們台鐵的這個優秀的員工"},{"start":7822.915,"end":7838.572,"text":"那你在當場也跟台鐵做出一個承諾說要做台鐵人最堅強的後盾要向行政院爭取七大員工的福利請問部長這個承諾算數嗎 還在嗎"},{"start":7845.595,"end":7864.461,"text":"我們要做台鐵人的後盾這個承諾當然會一直都在這個沒有問題好那我不曉得你的七大員工福利啊我沒辦法去細數但是啊我在這邊啊就跟我們的部長那台鐵董事長剛好也上來了OK來"},{"start":7867.901,"end":7884.33,"text":"我們有一個售票獎金我們有一個售票獎金這是對我們台鐵員工的一個小的福利小的福利那跟部長我一個數據讓你來看一下我們"},{"start":7889.583,"end":7914.81,"text":"過去一直有的就是有售票獎金喔那我從110年啊掉到114年我們的獎金預算喔年年有編列喔就是我們的這個獎金啊內含售票獎金但是我告訴你喔看得到吃得到啦我們這環港喔是看得到吃得到廣東話叫做見得到吃不到"},{"start":7919.537,"end":7936.513,"text":"我跟部長講 連續五年喔 從111年到114年所有的員工 能夠領到這一筆獎金的通通視聽 通通掛站那我請問部長 這樣的獎勵制度這樣的獎勵辦法 你覺得不需要錢好嗎"},{"start":7943.854,"end":7950.02,"text":"要不要 你要救台鐵人的後盾啊有這樣離譜的一個獎勵 辦法沒有預算 員工領不到 連續五年掛壓戰 結果辦法還是不改"},{"start":7962.478,"end":7982.637,"text":"像委員報告你覺得呢辦法該不該改我覺得台鐵公司可以去討論這個部分應該要啟動討論然後再來跟委員報告為什麼會有這樣子的狀況過去有這樣子的獎金是因為我們大部分都是人工售票那個過程我瞭解現在已經變成電子售票跟機器售票你的辦法就要與時俱進"},{"start":7984.498,"end":8004.954,"text":"如果我們的售票獎金不合時宜那你要改發其他演繹其他的獎金來獎勵員工啊而不是等一算辦法在那裡然後一直在那裡所以已經跟過去的人工售票不一樣所以你台鐵改制公司我們在建議的這個非常好我們應該要來討論一下說這個機制已經很像不符合現在的時代那看要怎麼樣去改變這個部分我們來檢討"},{"start":8014.121,"end":8025.848,"text":"這個部長可能對台鐵也要多加要求那今天我為什麼沒有苛責台鐵雖然工會一直在成型希望對他們福利好一點因為"},{"start":8027.562,"end":8043.473,"text":"5.25那天我剛好坐台鐵而且台鐵又剛好那麼準時跟過去的台鐵給大眾的印象完全不一樣所以部長跟我們許多委員同仁統統在高鐵"},{"start":8044.674,"end":8062.751,"text":"塞住我剛好坐台鐵所以我今天沒有苛責台鐵感謝委員支持我們這個北中直達車我們這個直達車在對風源的鄉親來講效益非常大台鐵這個部分我要指責肯定那我們就回到我們的高鐵的一個狀況高鐵的一個狀況來我們下一頁我想"},{"start":8070.256,"end":8075.286,"text":"整個事件發生我們都是不期待會發生但是真的狀況來了我們對旅客"},{"start":8079.34,"end":8105.196,"text":"已經到站的旅客還有當天一起準備要搭高鐵的旅客我們怎麼去公告怎麼去把這個訊息能夠在第一時間最快的速度全面的讓南北兩地各地的有要搭乘高鐵的乘客來了解這個部分"},{"start":8106.465,"end":8130.93,"text":"董事長在這裡請問你 你覺得做得好嗎是 跟委員報告我想確實大家對於沒有辦法把資訊通知到每一個旅客不管是上車 還沒有上車而讓旅客知道事實上可能延誤了時間的這個部分我想高鐵覺得很抱歉所以這個部分我覺得技術的部分我們都被專業交給技術去處理"},{"start":8133.65,"end":8155.187,"text":"但是這個讓旅客提早知道我們高鐵的狀況讓準備要搭車還有預計要搭車當天可以做他自己的應變處置的部分你要最快的速度讓旅客知道這一點我看你當天的旅客留言你就知道了嘛"},{"start":8155.988,"end":8172.219,"text":"你根本就覺得被騙啊你騙我上車我反而被困在車子裡面我沒辦法去做我其他的一個應變的一個的處理嘛對不對所以這個部分我覺得在未來"},{"start":8174.039,"end":8190.161,"text":"如果真的又有狀況我們當然不希望但是這樣的一個通知跟公告是我們要做最優先的一個事情我們會把應變機制以及資訊通知再做進一步的調查好 那下一位我想請教那個"},{"start":8192.323,"end":8219.741,"text":"當天總市長一直看不到你身影我剛剛聽到我們的整個處置措施我們總經理都還要跟你回報你當天有在應變中心嗎應變中心就在總公司就在我辦公室旁邊我在總公司你在總公司我剛剛聽到王一川委員你說你是在群組裡面而已你當天都在辦公室是確定嗎確定那你為什麼不出面"},{"start":8221.323,"end":8231.183,"text":"有的依照公司的規章應變中心的召集人是總經理那你知道你的部長卡在車上嗎知道那你讓部長代替你發言"},{"start":8232.796,"end":8260.835,"text":"你身為董事長都不發言報告委員我沒有代替董事長發言我是剛好下車以交通部長的身分受訪嘛媒體在堵麥所以我當然會我了解因為史喆是你是你的資深的前輩啊你也不敢苛責他啦史喆董事長不講話你也不敢理解這個我了解啦我想我們各級政府各單位在應變的當下都是由單位來發言啦而不是由首長來發言那你為什麼不發言"},{"start":8263.156,"end":8287.288,"text":"我們在應變的當下都是由機關單位的發言人發言我們正式發言就是在清晨五點鐘清晨五點鐘正式決定正式營運之後我藉由我的名義來正式說明成因後果及因素這個部分我就跟你這樣來一個要求另外"},{"start":8288.22,"end":8302.918,"text":"我最後要要求的這個事件影響了整個台灣的整個南北旅客的一個運輸跟安全當然事件的原因有我們高鐵在調查那在這個部分我要建議"},{"start":8304.299,"end":8324.642,"text":"運安會運安會今天沒有來嘛運安會應該要介入調查應該要介入調查不能只有事故有安全的一個狀況發生才調查我覺得光有我們高鐵本身自己的調查我們要取得我們高鐵"},{"start":8325.943,"end":8348.976,"text":"對一個公共的一個信任度我建議啦 部長我建議啦 有運安會也來參與來作為公正的第三方來跟我們針對高鐵這次的事件來做一個完整的調查那也重建我們高鐵的一個信任 好不好"},{"start":8350.076,"end":8360.259,"text":"感謝委員的建議這個部分我們會請鐵道局聯繫運安會看這個條件有沒有符合運安會啟動調查的條件那在這裡我額外再一個建議這一次的一個危機的處理必須要台鐵來幫忙嘛台鐵緊急來安排停靠新烏日站對不對我在這裡也建議交通部建議鐵道局建議我們台鐵新烏日站"},{"start":8379.585,"end":8400.876,"text":"的一個提升啊真正建議我們台鐵跟高鐵的串聯啊我想這次交通部應該可以去做一個規劃如果今天的新烏日站能夠提升啊它等於會變成常態的常態的包括我們自產號內車普悠馬內車跟高鐵的一個"},{"start":8406.359,"end":8433.409,"text":"這個快速的一個運輸的連結我想如果真的以後碰到有這樣的交通啊的一個運輸要互相支援啊新烏日站會成為一個很重要的一個站所以我在這裡建議九龍部長這裡應該要去做一個長遠的考慮為台灣的長途的一個旅客一個運輸做一個通盤的一個這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":8436.476,"end":8448.83,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們確實在朝這個方向在演繹沒有錯好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝陳其東委員的發言 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長我們現在先休息十分鐘"},{"start":8470.794,"end":8472.125,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9071.73,"end":9090.089,"text":"好那我們繼續開會下一位登記質詢的委員黃建豪委員請黃建豪召委好謝謝主席主席我們要請交通部陳部長請陳部長台灣高鐵史哲董事長請史哲董事長"},{"start":9094.591,"end":9110.033,"text":"委員好部長好董事長好我想就照今天的狀況其實今天的報告不管是交通部也好或是說在這個高雷公司也好的兩份的報告書面資料裡面包含剛剛口頭上講的說法上面到目前為止"},{"start":9111.896,"end":9131.39,"text":"真實的原因還沒有出來嗎你們都是說還要盡速的去要求所謂調查報告的結果那我想好奇說那到底這個盡速因為董事長剛剛也提到說會有一個期程但是剛剛其實剛剛其他委員提到一件事情包含說所謂第三方公職單位的這部分也是基本上是交通部同一套人馬那到底這個盡速"},{"start":9132.898,"end":9157.018,"text":"有沒有一個要求的期程你們總會有一個說法因為其實我們那時候上禮拜排在今天的預期是說過個禮拜可能會有些比較具體的一些檢討報告檢討的狀況或者是方案出來了所以我們才排今天來做相關的說明那但是今天看到的書面來講還是處在一個禁書的狀況那到底這個禁書的狀況什麼時候答案才會有正式的說法讓全民來了解"},{"start":9157.666,"end":9184.841,"text":"謝謝委員的關心事實上我們比誰都擠啦因為我們會影響到我們後續的更新工程那我們已經折成兩個第三方單位也就是鐵岩中心以及這個張簡老師的這個軌道中心事實上代表民間跟原廠跟我方四方事實上要趕快競速擬定出一個期程期程目前還沒有出來但是不能無限制的等待這個我們知道期程一旦出來我們也會競速跟委員報告跟社會報告"},{"start":9186.186,"end":9189.995,"text":"那按照網利或是按照你們公司的一些組織規章那個競速有沒有"},{"start":9191.055,"end":9216.142,"text":"就是什麼時候出來當然你說你要明年後年什麼時候出來但是你這個答案比如說今天禮拜今天禮拜四了今天六月四號但是要今天來宣布說我什麼時候把答案公佈就是那個這個是什麼時間點我沒有預期說你什麼時候把答案出來跟委員報告好第一個不會是明年啦第二個就是說這個如果是屬於我個人可以決策的事情我當然應該承諾但是這是屬於一個專業上必須要給"},{"start":9218.963,"end":9239.69,"text":"公正單位一個緩衝調查的時間這個也必須齊成由他們提出我會請他們儘速提出來跟大家報告好不好好再來剛剛有一個其實他在技術面上還有一個問題就是說其實這一次的這個主要目前看起來的狀況是所謂的轉折器控制機箱的故障電源機箱模組當初早上當初是因為現在進行20年的更換嘛"},{"start":9241.331,"end":9266.375,"text":"那出問題的這個零組件 它當然是當天的25號的凌晨換了那後來發現它有狀況其中一組 其中這兩組發生狀況之後那現在等於停止這個更換的動作是那停止更換的動作 第一個問題是說會不會影響到後續高鐵的營運就是你等於同時間現在有新舊的機組在進行喔已經有370多組換完了然後還有大概100組左右還沒有換"},{"start":9267.096,"end":9292.782,"text":"那今天暫停更換的這個作業之後新舊之間會不會有衝突這第一個問題那第二個問題是那過去換完的370組有沒有問題有沒有再檢測過會不會我現在先暫停不換了嘛那問題是前面那370組是不是他的品質他的這個良率跟出現問題的這一組有沒有做過比較會不會導致說我前面370組換完了那結果後面"},{"start":9294.759,"end":9312.976,"text":"現在雖然中停 但是現在站點沒有換但是結果發生了前面370組出現狀況導致高停又再次發生這種重大的變化委員的問題涉及相當專業我是不是請總經理來回答好 謝謝我這邊跟委員說明一下其實我們已經換了370組從113組換到現在是沒有問題那這一次這樣換其實我們是在做中期檢修的更新其實本身設備是沒有問題的"},{"start":9320.083,"end":9341.872,"text":"所以即使說我現在暫緩更換也不會對我現在新舊那個設備的那個產生任何異常的狀況一定不會的那對不起總經理這個我再多問一下現在等於新舊共存嘛那我今天之所以要換那是因為20年時期現在都要大修那我今天如果"},{"start":9343.24,"end":9365.547,"text":"你說新舊都沒問題換到幹嘛我幹嘛換我們是新品跟舊品因為舊品我們已經使用了20年了對使用20年那這個一般來講電子設備使用一段時間一定要去更新換新的那這一次就是在換電聯模子而已其實我們下面後面下面的設備也是一併都要更換只是我們安排在不同的時期會更換而已"},{"start":9366.55,"end":9387.475,"text":"我想這樣啦 其實我們今天提這個問題是要擔心說對我們來講 當然我們是外行 我們是在旁邊看嘛我們就我們一般的情況理解 今天20年期限到這種電子零組件它有個所謂的期程 那加上這幾年當然氣候變遷啊等等的 所以它的耐用度 它的良率可能會受到影響所以你前面的371組換完了 那後面這些都還沒有換"},{"start":9390.868,"end":9412.694,"text":"如果你先保證說前面370組換完了不會有問題但後面那些沒換的已經達到20年年限了那在未來的這個幾個月或幾週他會不會有什麼狀況那如果確定不會有那當然沒問題那我要問說那後面這些還沒有換的那你們是不是也去檢測過確定他短期內不會產生狀況所以他可以暫時不用換你這個決策是不會有問題的我是要問這個"},{"start":9417.156,"end":9438.553,"text":"這個基本上就跟剛剛講這個是新品跟舊品而已事實上系統是沒有變更的那我們原來更換的是要到從2024年要到2026年要換完所以即使是我們本來就是到明年底會整個會換完所以基本上還是有時間去更換那在另外在沒有更換之前"},{"start":9439.213,"end":9457.913,"text":"對我們的系統來講我們每天每天都有定期我們事實上是有定期的PM的工作在執行都會去做檢測不會說就放在那邊就不理了好 總經理謝謝部長這個高鐵的狀況當然在專業的部分或在所謂的高鐵營運本身是高鐵的事情但是在整個調度的部分我想"},{"start":9458.994,"end":9481.586,"text":"系統異常大概早上四點凌晨四點多大家都知道了那剛剛很多委員提到說沒收到通知 包含我本人當然我們都沒收到通知包含說你的APP包含說我們會員的簡訊所以當天我們在交通委員會很多委員提出相關的建議希望說這個在通知大家的狀況下要能夠確實通知但是問題是除了讓旅客知道說這個事情"},{"start":9483.506,"end":9510.631,"text":"這個班次會延誤之外台灣現在南北縱下的主要幾個交通高鐵台鐵兩條國道那就沒有了但是高鐵台鐵兩條國道基本上都是屬於部長的轄下能夠去調度的這個工具所以應該說在這次事件這次事件我想這是史上第一次高鐵全線受到影響以前過去幾次都是除非颱風天啦但是其他幾次的故障可能是除了13年那次大整個shut down之外"},{"start":9511.671,"end":9530.471,"text":"過去十幾年來大部分時候都是部分部分部分但是第一次出現整條出現狀況的時候未來經過這件事情之後部長這邊有沒有提出提出什麼樣的方案能夠去處理說南北縱向的因為其實這個對台灣的整個不管經濟也好國安也好都很重要嘛因為你就就就就這四個選項而已那未來要怎麼調度這部分"},{"start":9531.212,"end":9556.779,"text":"教育部有什麼樣的做法感謝委員您在關心這一點其實關係到整個台灣的交通韌性的問題所以在當天的早上大概八點多的時間我人還在車上我就馬上聯繫希望說台鐵可以趕快作為備援的這個運作所以台鐵也相當的快在十點的時候就已經加開這個自強號可以讓他全線可以不對號可以直接讓他上車讓民眾"},{"start":9557.859,"end":9576.231,"text":"可以透過台鐵來做轉運而且是做整天的這個備援機制這是一個方面那第二個方面是在當天發生事情狀況之後我回到部裡面我們召開了緊急應變會議我們召開緊急應變會除了對當天的應處之外更重要的是我們不曉得隔天到底"},{"start":9576.591,"end":9605.16,"text":"能不能運行在高鐵的部分我不曉得他修不修得好這個部分我們沒有把握所以備援機制我們也同時在討論除了台鐵之外委員剛剛所提到的國道我們國道科運我們也設計了從新竹到台北從桃園到台北我們的國道科運的接駁機制我們那個時候也列入討論那另外比較量比較大的在北部的輸運的部分捷運的部分機捷的部分我們那個時候也有納入討論那不過因為我們在考量到說"},{"start":9605.74,"end":9635.08,"text":"因為季節平日就已經非常擁塞了所以我們不曉得他能夠提供多少的運量出來所以我們當時的備援機制也有討論到但要不要用可能放在比較後面所以整體的備援機制確實是交通部應該要做的這個工作那這個部分我們也會透過一次一次的經驗我們的那個建立的SOP也建立起來跟委員報告好 部長謝謝 經過這一次事件我們希望說後續還是要提一份書面給交通委員會的所有委員讓大家知道說第一個是說"},{"start":9635.7,"end":9658.212,"text":"比如說 其實剛剛王一山委員講的也沒錯就是你今天4點27分出現異常 那什麼時候做決策因為部長或是董事長剛剛提到 部長提到一件事情是我們到時候在搶學 我們不知道什麼時候搶學好希望他搶學好 能夠全線恢復正常但是這個過程 這個動態滾動的過程什麼時候讓民眾知道 我有去做行程的預排以及你交通部什麼時候開始啟動周邊的協調作業 我覺得這個"},{"start":9661.567,"end":9672.293,"text":"工作流程要趕快把它建立出來那我們希望說一個月給我們一份書面擺得起嗎 做出來嗎我們來做這個方面的檢討檢討的報告再向委員說明好 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃建豪 張偉的資訊"},{"start":9692.287,"end":9704.478,"text":"好 接下來請邱若驊委員發言謝謝主席主席請高鐵公司石澤董事長還有鐵道局楊局長請石董事長跟楊局長"},{"start":9716.15,"end":9730.286,"text":"局長 董事長我有看到你們這次提供的報告那報告中有提到高鐵通車即將滿20年那日常的維修還有系統更新是在每日的營運結束後進行的我想先請教董事長那在平均進行的時間是多久"},{"start":9733.662,"end":9758,"text":"你們的這次的系統更新然後還有維修是在每天營運之後進行的嗎是那是在多久時間內你們必須要完成這些工作項目這個是一個2024年的更新計畫當中的某一個項目就是電源的更新這個更新計畫是3年我們現在已經完成了83%也就是大概3萬你說你提到的是進度嗎那我想說每天你們要在多久的時間內必須要完成這些4.5個小時"},{"start":9759.16,"end":9781.698,"text":"4.5個小時那這樣子其實時間蠻緊的嘛那交通部跟鐵道局這邊有沒有要重新檢討就是你們在這段更新期間的作業那不是讓高鐵再進行這一次的系統更新還是就是工作項目中然後你們有這樣子的壓力下要進行維修你們有沒有再重新檢討這個時間這是否是足夠的而且是不會影響到隔日的營運還有投車"},{"start":9782.97,"end":9810.625,"text":"是跟委員坦誠說明我們12點05分收班之後那第二天是5點50分發第一班車那扣除巡軌以及相班整備的工作所以原則上是4點5個小時要進行維修的狼帶確實是對於這個維修的工作是相當的急不過這個恐怕也是一個現在必須要承認的現實因為很多民眾還希望我們延後收班甚至更提早發車"},{"start":9811.405,"end":9838.296,"text":"那事實上維修的時間就更短了那在這次的事件之後你們有沒有再重新檢討這個流程跟作業我們有正在檢討甚至包括說我們會把當中比較關鍵性的維修工作挑出來希望它的進場時間能夠更提早這一次的關鍵的系統的更新那你們是誰來做這個審查的優先順序是交通部還是鐵道局是由高鐵的維修部門是由高鐵的維修部門那你們這項計畫總共投入了多少經費"},{"start":9840.033,"end":9869.478,"text":"是不是我請總經理針對這一個的話總共花了15億那之前鐵道局有沒有做過評估還有審查哪一些是應該是要優先來做的跟委員報告這個屬於公司的維修作業按照法定的相關程序並不需要報到鐵道局來審查好那這次的事件之後那報告說你們要由第三方來去做來去做檢討嗎那調查的範圍有沒有包含鐵道局的監理呢"},{"start":9872.74,"end":9898.247,"text":"這個會從我們鐵道局的這個監理程序來進行相關的調查所以也會納入事前的監理嗎所謂的事前監理因為按照現在的分工作業的話這個是屬於公司的維修作業原則上是由公司來進行相關作業的負責那如果經過這一次的這個事件調查之後呢認為公司的相關作業有需要做檢討跟改進的地方我們會來要求"},{"start":9899.123,"end":9914.976,"text":"局長照這樣子聽下來你認為這個全責都是在高鐵公司因為事實上公司要負責營運跟維修高鐵已經進入營運20年了也不是突然知道的事局長你平常有沒有掌握關鍵設備的清單呢"},{"start":9920.659,"end":9935.339,"text":"這是關鍵設備更新的清單還是這只是由高鐵來做負責這個基本上都是由高鐵公司來做負責但是重要設備的這個重置也就是更換我們會在財務場合裡面做一些了解這會不會納入這一次的檢討報告會"},{"start":9937.001,"end":9954.65,"text":"這也會拿入檢討報告那董事長其實這一次你們有說你們有跟旅客溝通很多嘛那像你們在網站上面APP上面還有新聞都有發布可是民眾他們當時也沒有得到很完整的資訊那經過這一次的事件你們有沒有要做你們會做出什麼樣的改善有什麼其他的應變機制"},{"start":9955.45,"end":9983.809,"text":"在我今天報告裡面的檢討反省換成短中長期其中的中期就是我們希望能夠精進有關於旅客資訊的通知的透明化跟準確性那這個部分呢我們恐怕是需要更精密的這個大數據的分析因為每一次班版的調整在不同的時刻不同的情境它事實上它的預測分析是會不同但是我覺得我們的旅客要求說不能無限制的等待而不知道延誤的時間這是合理的所以我們這個部分會來精進來改進"},{"start":9985.89,"end":10011.995,"text":"是那我剛才也有提到其實你們通常都有一定程序的應變SOP嘛那你們這一次有沒有就也是會提供就是應對的SOP嗎不是我們這一次是在7點半已經了解到說事實上修復已經有一定的成果但是事實上沒有辦法解決全線的問題但是已經達成雙線雙向因此我們才在8點鐘的時候改成為替代班表這個就是SOP"},{"start":10012.717,"end":10025.954,"text":"其實你們在每天就是進行這樣子的設備更新那其實一定在營運之前你們還會做確保嘛當天行車是安全的那當天為什麼沒有辦法掌握我們當天在4點27分發現信號異常5點38分成立應變中心"},{"start":10031.401,"end":10051.863,"text":"這段時間都一直在進行搶修的工作而搶修事實上是有進度把影響的範圍縮小因此在七點鐘的時候能夠達成雙向通車但是我們確實沒有辦法完全依照正常的時間表但是至少不會全面停止如果在七點半的時候之前沒有辦法達成雙向通車的時候事實上我們也只能選擇停止"},{"start":10053.465,"end":10078.777,"text":"所以七點半做成決策八點改替代班表改成一個小時三班是我們不得已的做法希望維持基本的通行的運能所以這裡還是跟大家說聲抱歉我們在維持基本運能的選擇狀況底下確實最大程造成很大的延誤所以那剛才就是除了就是我剛才說的SOP之外然後那也請再提供你們這一次的檢討資料給交通委員會那這邊主席請部長"},{"start":10087.537,"end":10106.346,"text":"是 部長 獨駕的問題喔那交通部這次對外說明說要加重處罰然後還有那請鐵道局還有石頭市長也先請回座那也包括吊銷要照照然後限制重新考照那還有針對這些獨駕的駕駛他們也要完成毒品危害的講習還有戒營治療那這方向本席也是支持的那"},{"start":10106.946,"end":10124.709,"text":"其實獨駕跟酒駕它不同嘛那酒駕它有比較成熟的裁罰跟追蹤制度那獨駕它牽涉毒品的種類那還有它的進入檢驗還有戒指再放風險管理上面會比較複雜那想請教部長那針對獨駕者他被吊銷之後那交通部要如何來防止他再次上路"},{"start":10125.961,"end":10151.519,"text":"報告委員當然一方面我們的行政法則上面必須要加重這是一方面 二方面是對於大家在關心的車輛沒入的部分我們確實也在研議而且真的要朝這個方向來做我們希望說未來只要你敢獨駕不管車子的車主是不是獨駕本身這位獨駕者我們還是傾向把車輛直接做沒入的動作"},{"start":10152.199,"end":10174.427,"text":"交通部現在有在演繹也有在討論說就是針對這些獨駕者他們被吊銷之後他們幾年之後還可以再考照那目前交通部的態度是我們的態度目前第一我們當然是要延長他這個考照的時間第二即便是讓他考到照之後我們也只會先發短期的駕照短期的駕照三年期的短期駕照要觀察六年"},{"start":10175.067,"end":10194.868,"text":"六年之後確定沒有再吸毒者我們才會讓他有駕照而且確定沒有吸毒還必須要有他的這個介質的證明要有醫生方面的證明而且或者是必須要上過樂界方面的課程如果他被吊銷駕照之後如果他又被查獲那交通部你們有沒有就是準備要建立一個系統還有一個追蹤追蹤的系統還有清單"},{"start":10195.769,"end":10213.542,"text":"追蹤的系統我們都會有建立那另外針對說如果他已經駕照已經被沒入了或者是說被扣掉銷了他還去駕車的話我們這方面的罰則本來是一萬二一般都是一萬二無照駕駛但只要是獨駕的我們都是用三萬六而且可以累加"},{"start":10214.566,"end":10228.974,"text":"其實先民眾最擔心的就是車輛目錄之後其實他們還可以再駕駛親友的車或是他們可以駕駛竹林車那也希望交通部這邊可以再做分級管理那交通部目前還在研議就是三年之後還要再觀察六年"},{"start":10230.355,"end":10254.851,"text":"那這邊也就是接下來會和衛福部在做一個聯防的機制嗎我們這件事必須要跟衛福部合作也必須跟法務部還有就是警政單位就是內政部我們各個單位大家會合作把這個名單釐清然後再來它的介制的資料也必須要大家串接起來像高風險的管理然後還有衛福部那邊的資料那也請部長這邊再多加留意是好沒問題謝謝委員"},{"start":10257.694,"end":10285.77,"text":"好 謝謝邱榮浩委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言我們邀請部長鐵道局跟高鐵董事長三位好 請部長董事長跟我們局長委員好"},{"start":10294.508,"end":10312.76,"text":"部長董事長還有我們鐵道局針對5月25號這次高鐵的大霧點事件我要替我們全台中全中台灣的鄉親要一個公道因為5月25號如果嚴肅的來講它不是只有一個"},{"start":10315.349,"end":10329.739,"text":"這個交通樞紐的一個現象那它更是一個災難的現象因為我們看到現場整個站體塞爆整個月台塞爆大廳塞爆排隊排到外面"},{"start":10330.399,"end":10360.059,"text":"那民眾不知道我到底車子什麼時候來我到底幾點我到底回不了家尤其我們中部地區很多人住在台中但是要工作在高雄工作在這個台北所以他到底上得了班尤其是出國的那他可不可以搭上這個飛機大家很緊張很緊張那在這樣的情況之下我要坦白講那一天沒有發揮功能因為連計程車都大排的"},{"start":10362.82,"end":10385.732,"text":"這個這個非常的多元那同時運量也不足 接駁也非常的混亂所以我在這邊要說政府一直告訴我們大烏日轉運中心大烏日轉運中心但是整個轉運功能可以說那一天是直接破空所以我要請問高鐵台中站是全線最重要的南北轉運樞紐之一"},{"start":10386.972,"end":10399.189,"text":"那請問在事故發生之後有沒有啟動跟台中市政府的橫向聯繫有沒有立即通知台中捷運來加密搬賜有沒有這個需求同時有沒有立即啟動接駁的這個輸運請做說明"},{"start":10404.017,"end":10421.918,"text":"向委員報告當天早上我在車上的時候大概八點多我在車上就直接指揮請台鐵公司馬上針對新烏日站做這個接駁的這個輸運協助接駁的輸運尤其在新自強號EMU3000的部分我希望說在高鐵站如果大家"},{"start":10422.338,"end":10437.934,"text":"搭高鐵不便利的時候可以有台鐵可以作為轉乘的一個功能那當時我們並沒有聯繫台中市政府我的部分沒有聯繫台中市政府原因是這樣因為通常在高鐵站台中高鐵站不是往南就是往北"},{"start":10438.494,"end":10453.438,"text":"一定是跨縣式的不會是在台中裡面來移轉所以我來優先處理的部分是跨縣式的運具我們必須要把它跟得上所以台鐵公司很感謝台鐵公司在當天的10點針對新烏日站的部分就馬上做接駁的這個動作這個部分我們馬上來處理"},{"start":10456.401,"end":10472.01,"text":"部長你這個回答難怪當天亂成一團所以我必須要要求也就是未來因為整個輸運體系沒有完整性沒有完整性相關單位也都在這裡所以我必須要要求一個月內你們去檢討"},{"start":10473.371,"end":10500.796,"text":"我們不希望發生但是萬一發生的時候我們的輸運到底要怎麼去做這個非常重要一個月內請把這個輸運的這個方式各種面向各多元而不是只有單一他也可以回家趕快我運用其他的方式我到哪裡趕快再去運用其他的交通工具啊對不對當然你說台鐵這重要但是還有很多的其他的方式啊為什麼都不用"},{"start":10501.596,"end":10511.06,"text":"所以會亂成一團所以一個月內將你們輸贏的方式去檢討給本席 可以吧可以好 接下來我要跟你討論更嚴肅的問題 賠償的問題賠償的問題 現在是民國二現在是西元二零二六年我們的賠償訂約是什麼時候訂的"},{"start":10521.927,"end":10543.854,"text":"20年了所以我要請教部長因為當天公布的就是延誤30分鐘退半假董事長在這邊一個鐘頭的是退全票但是這不是幾百塊的問題啊而是當你的乘客他要北上開會他要簽約他要出國他要看病"},{"start":10545.1,"end":10559.864,"text":"有的人錯過了 就像我們也接到陳情他雖然上了 但是停停 走走 停停 走走最後他趕不上那班飛機 差了五分鐘差了五分鐘 他趕快要再去買另外一張機票那請問 他來請問 他原來的那張機票你們要退給他嗎"},{"start":10568.334,"end":10590.633,"text":"還是只有這幾百塊到桃園幾百塊你退給他因為我們要知道高鐵票呢他不是只有交通工具而已耶他非常的重要他背後所隱藏的是整個商務甚至醫療甚至他的時間成本家庭的一個安排所以我在這邊要正式的來要求也就是"},{"start":10592.718,"end":10616.593,"text":"針對於旅客運送定型化契約部長 鐵道局長在這裡高鐵在這裡現在電商的平台也有說我如果你買了一個瑕疵品我買一賠三現在電商企業也有如此那我們已經20年了 像這一次我們接到了這麼多的陳警案件 這找誰賠我們還要委請律師"},{"start":10620.114,"end":10642.395,"text":"那到底我們政府在這方面我們有沒有要做處理請教部長 請教董事長向委員報告這個部分其實牽涉的面向相當相當的廣因為所有的運輸行業我們目前的定型化契約大概都是同樣的模式那如果還要牽涉到這個賠償的部分可能整體的運輸行業都必須要一體試用"},{"start":10643.456,"end":10664.729,"text":"那包含說前兩天其實台中捷運在上班時間它也停時了所以如果要處理不會只有高鐵像台中捷運也必須要做賠償的動作那所有的運具包含飛機也好或者是軌道也好或者是客運也好都必須要有這樣的機制我想這個是牽涉的面向比較廣請委員讓我們一些時間來討論跟研議"},{"start":10668.69,"end":10691.415,"text":"這個時間兩個月內你們去討論因為20年來高鐵的賠償機制的定型化契約那我建議我們可以拿出來檢討因為民眾損害太多我們高鐵營運辛苦但是也賺錢但是你不能讓受害的民眾自己吞下去啊對不對所以這個有檢討的空間吧兩個月內請將賠償高鐵賠償的定型化契約去檢討出來"},{"start":10695.996,"end":10721.25,"text":"我們會針對整體的運輸我們再來做討論所以我要說的這不是一個單一事故就像您說的高鐵化老化的這個現象因為現在訊號異常設備異常延誤增強20年了我們要怎麼樣讓旅客他可以安全他可以放心他可以便捷我相信這是高鐵公司的一個責任跟一個義務所以因此"},{"start":10721.61,"end":10744.519,"text":"一直告訴我們 我們有備援車啊 我們有備援這個系統我們應變系統啊 但是發生之後呢 大家問也就是說 後援的列車在哪裡 備援的系統在哪裡那搶救為什麼要這麼久 所以我在這邊具體建議因為人民要的是安全 是穩定 是可以信賴的"},{"start":10745.419,"end":10773.892,"text":"高鐵 董事長 對不對所以在這樣的情況之下 我具體正式要求高鐵必須再提出台中站完整的輸運改善方案 這第一個第二個 交通部檢討高鐵旅客的這個賠償機制 定型化契約第三個 高鐵跟鐵道局必須提出全線核心系統老化的太舊的一個經濟方案可以嗎"},{"start":10775.011,"end":10785.519,"text":"可以加油謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝楊瓊玉委員然後謝謝部長和董事長接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌專輔在現在請黃建斌委員發言好"},{"start":10799.666,"end":10808.252,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我們有請我們陳部長還有我們台鐵的總經理好 我們請陳部長跟馮總經理委員好"},{"start":10816.561,"end":10840.233,"text":"今天我們討論的雖然是這個高鐵事件的檢討那還好台東沒有高鐵但是我們有賴以為主要的一個台鐵的事件所以這次也問到那5月24號那天因為台鐵的一個人為事故造成整個交通大打結然後我記得那天委員會八個委員會全部都delay我當時想說那如果發生在台東該怎麼辦"},{"start":10841.974,"end":10870.114,"text":"不過真的你擔心什麼就來什麼隔了三天之後5月28號台東的鐵道就發生了兩件重大的人為的事故部長知道是什麼事情嗎一個是有一個軌道貨運車它溜溢的問題那另外一個是電車線的問題溜溢造成的電車線部長你覺得這個有沒有很嚴重我認為是相當嚴重相當嚴重嘛對不對所以它在同一個小時之內"},{"start":10871.557,"end":10896.088,"text":"因為它應該有因果關係它是有因果關係這兩件事件是有因果關係可是我們在想你剛剛發生這個拖曳事件之後造成這個貨車脫軌撞到電線桿然後整個影響整個供電然後北上的列車因為這樣暫停暫停一個小時修復之後往上跑的時候又勾到又斷掉這一點點裡面感覺出來發生兩件事"},{"start":10899.059,"end":10925.597,"text":"是這樣嘛對不對報告委員他沒有修復啦他就是說事情在繼續發生但是在同一件事情裡面同一件事情裡面他那個時候還沒有修復還沒有修復那你是對東部來講我們唯一仰賴的就是這條道路就是鐵道這條道路那對民眾的感受是說當時我們交通部也說台鐵公司的話就是為了要提升營運品質"},{"start":10926.837,"end":10946.278,"text":"公司化也提升了那因為提升公司化之後你必須有營運成本所以票價要調漲票價也調漲了然後交通部也說未來整個東部的安全跟品質都會提升結果我們看到是什麼事這兩個月其實東部幹線去發生很多這樣的事件那部長你這邊有什麼要來說明的嗎好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10947.139,"end":10968.491,"text":"一方面在事故方面就是說整體的這個系統的韌性的部分其實台鐵公司一直在做改革跟改變跟努力包含說邊波的改善的部分硬體建設的部分我們正在做那另外對於電力系統確實我們最近有發現很多電力系統上面的問題那我們該更新的部分其實台鐵公司也在研議看要怎麼更新"},{"start":10968.931,"end":10983.468,"text":"那也跟委員報告確實我們長線來看對東部地區來講台鐵相當相當重要所以它的穩固性跟穩定性跟安全性我們特別的重視不過也要給我們一些時間我們來努力那台鐵公司的部分我看它如果以長線來看"},{"start":10985.01,"end":10999.026,"text":"我們看他一整年的事故的事件跟機率的話其實這一兩年的改革看得出來是有在下降那不過跟委員報告也很抱歉確實在東部地區有蠻多這樣的事件我們會持續來改革"},{"start":10999.787,"end":11028.232,"text":"其實本期當下其實我就在附近我回去選區我第一個想到的是說如果那個時間差剛好沒有抓到滑動的那輛火車的車廂剛好進入到進來接下來要北上或南下的列車的列車上造成的傷亡這個又很難去估算台東每次發生這種事都是很重大事件東部人其實我當天在台東選區是民眾非常非常的生氣他說"},{"start":11030.526,"end":11060.301,"text":"台鐵一直我們一直給台鐵很多的機會然後當時要調整票價之後我們一再的反應說你在安全措施沒有做好之前這個部分對東部沒有選擇交通方式來說他是很不公平的可是票價也漲了服務還是這樣子那以後不能再發生這真的是要最後一次這個可以跟民眾保證嗎我們一定會全力來降低台鐵的人為事故跟一般的事故這個部分是我們一直要努力的"},{"start":11061.081,"end":11083.516,"text":"接下來七月八月就是台東的旅遊旺季不管是放暗暑假學生返鄉也好或是在這邊旅遊的也好還有我們的熱氣球還有我們的豐年祭種種這些都是台東最重要的一個時刻這個時候千萬不能再發生這樣的事情也要讓民眾安心就是我台東要出去的人要回來的人能夠安心的坐車來台東旅遊的人才能夠"},{"start":11084.477,"end":11101.924,"text":"不用擔心說會不會就這個還沒有天災我們還沒遇到颱風時就遇到這樣的狀況第二件事就跟部長問一下反正就是說我們整個南緯地區通行也要做調整就7月1號開始要做時刻調整是嗎7月1號以後我們有大概點"},{"start":11107.133,"end":11126.981,"text":"那個經理這邊本想要建議就是說7月1號開始本身在南韋地區像大午啊經理這邊比較多在使用TT pass的這些站是可以多增加停靠的站點那我想這不僅可以讓整個南韋地區的這個使用增加也可以讓台鐵營收也夠增加這些好一件事那這部分台鐵這邊可以來演繹一下"},{"start":11127.981,"end":11145.769,"text":"我們感謝委員在長期關心南回地區整個交通我們這邊會來做進一步研議委員提出來意見我們現在也都在做整個研議處理當中因為部長今天我們東部我們沒有我們沒有高鐵我們也沒有高速公路我們就只有一條"},{"start":11147.089,"end":11172.704,"text":"鐵公路 而且是遇到天災就會斷掉的鐵公路這部分真的要拜託部長這邊跟總經理這邊能夠多多的加油也跟委員報告就六一那一部分跟委員講我們在六一尾端都有一些安全防護措施所以那個鋪石災他會出軌我們的貨車出軌不會進入陣線所以不會有發生剛才講的這個會對上安全的問題大家知道其實民眾會擔心說他們"},{"start":11174.665,"end":11195.418,"text":"不好的回憶會上來阿對那第二個部分是 總經理還記得這幾年台東發生的重大的事件包括普魯瑪事件那個造成的傷亡多大我們了解我們全面都在做處理那部長也特別的叮你我們這一次針對台中花東縣這一邊的電力設備我們已經進行全面的檢查總共有8400多組的這個我們的電力設備組數現在已經檢討1400多組我們預計在8月底"},{"start":11202.603,"end":11229.586,"text":"我們會全部把它檢討完成那確保剛才委員提到在這個整個東部的這個旅遊運輸能夠都能非常順暢安全我們相信其實機車運工都很辛苦啦我們機電運工都很認真在做事情那我們相信台鐵其實也很有心想要改善東部交通這一塊那我們加油不要讓他覺得說我們台鐵機要賣便宜而已我相信台鐵也要賣便宜其實也做得好這塊我們也要請"},{"start":11231.36,"end":11235.446,"text":"以上單位能夠多加油謝謝委員 謝謝部長 謝謝總經理 謝謝主席好 謝謝黃金斌委員 謝謝部長 謝謝總經理接下來我們請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":11253.859,"end":11261.144,"text":"謝謝主席有請交通部的陳部長以及高鐵的董事長好 請陳部長是董事長委員好我先請教陳部長因為前面有些委員有提了問題我也關心這個題目就是有關於酒駕跟獨駕的部分"},{"start":11281.696,"end":11308.833,"text":"是不是我們行政部門是調整部署裡確定說如果什麼情況之下我就直接沒入他的交通工具不管是他的個人的還是借人的向委員報告確實我們朝這個方向在研擬我們希望說未來只要敢獨駕的人他使用的運具不管是摩托車或者是汽車的部分我們都朝沒入的方向前進什麼時候可以確定"},{"start":11310.975,"end":11331.694,"text":"針對不管車主是不是獨駕的本身這位獨駕者我們都要默入那這個部分我們在六月底之前我們一定會把案子送到行政院那便由行政院轉送到我們的立法院由大院來這個做審議你也贊成我再請問一下你覺得酒駕比較可惡還是獨駕比較可惡"},{"start":11333.855,"end":11363.175,"text":"我之前也在委員會上面宣示過獨駕跟酒駕脫鉤因為獨駕比酒駕還要嚴重很多對啊還嚴重 獨駕比較嚴重啊他已經先犯法了吸毒這件事已經本身先犯法了犯法之後你還使用運劇那其實這變成一個犯罪的工具所以現在我們很多委員在修這個法基本上獨駕的罰則應該比酒駕的高嘛是沒有錯我們已經脫鉤處理所以也會比酒駕高很多"},{"start":11363.815,"end":11370.686,"text":"要高很多可以高到無期徒刑這個是刑罰的部分我們尊重法務部那邊對於刑罰罰則的部分"},{"start":11375.327,"end":11401.575,"text":"我想請石董市長一起來我們看到這次的高鐵的事情高鐵已經到底是國有民營了國有民營那我看到你說針對這個事情不過你賠了幾千萬那個就賠了吧你還有檢討其實我看了一下歷史的資料過去的軌道事件高鐵幾乎是零了"},{"start":11402.475,"end":11424.363,"text":"我們我們績效是非常好的啊那這次怎麼會發生這問題有人就講了有人就講了所以這個請部長也聽一下因為從2015年那個時候2015年我們把那個折舊的連線拉長了讓高鐵火起來那時候差點倒掉啊整個來說的話變國有"},{"start":11427.045,"end":11442.034,"text":"民營國有民營的情況底下就慢慢就績效就差了就大家就是公家的感覺這種感覺就出來那我現在問你題目是你說你要投入2000億請問你資本額多少我是說資本額大概是這個700多億700多億你要投2000億喔錢怎麼來"},{"start":11451.916,"end":11470.212,"text":"高鐵當然是一個高資本密集你兩千億要怎麼來啦怎麼來當然是透過這個資本的攝帶嘛什麼東西就是透過融資啦要借兩千億喔高鐵平時其實就有相關高額的借貸你們現在已經有負債八成了你現在負債多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":11471.646,"end":11488.349,"text":"總負債你總負債超過3000億的是沒錯對啊那你現在債2000億的負債5000億的部長聽著喔這個東西今天高鐵人家借你錢你說你三條路只有資金我不知道你有這麼多錢你只有資金多少只有資金多少你可能不知道這可能要查一下要查一下來 講一下吧跟他講一下吧只有資金多少錢"},{"start":11500.424,"end":11517.892,"text":"你要不然就發公司債不然就跟聯合銀行授信不管是公司債或者是銀行授信就銀行借你錢主要就是看你右邊那一位嘛就交通部嘛因為你是交通部啊等於是交通部的國營事業嘛"},{"start":11518.772,"end":11532.648,"text":"所以你就可以借你錢嘛那你這個兩千億我不知道你這兩千億貨在什麼地方啊你要這個今天報告寫一個我看了嚇一跳兩千億好大一筆勒你的資本會委員可以讓我說嗎好來我們在2010年進行採改的時候"},{"start":11537.073,"end":11551.505,"text":"雖然把折舊年限從35年變70年但是同時交通部鐵道局也有新的財改模組的財務計畫而這個財改模組財務計畫當中在70年當中其實也有計算出資產重置重建的財務"},{"start":11552.606,"end":11573.485,"text":"所以這兩千億並不是無中生有我今天講的只是說我們優先把電力耗資跟救車這將近要花兩千億的資產重置我們要評估討率是不是提前這不是新的事項它本來就在財務模組當中有只是面臨到這個事件我們再評估討率是不是要提前"},{"start":11574.076,"end":11586.265,"text":"那什麼時候要2000億要划出去是 所以我說我在評估考慮要提前我連期程都沒有提出來但是原本的35年的折舊設計我認為是到了應該要檢討的時候"},{"start":11590.302,"end":11601.874,"text":"35年 我的理念是沒有回答我的就是2000億你要投入哪一些地方啦我剛剛特別講了電力耗資跟車輛耗資車輛這個就要2000億喔這不只會2000億這三項就要2000億喔這三項應該不只2000億"},{"start":11610.24,"end":11636.292,"text":"這在原本的財務計畫當中都有只是當時是在35年之後再進行資產重置我現在認為說有關於是不是35年之後再進行資產重置這件事情應該要評估檢討好 那等於是把35年提前就對了我認為每一個項目去評估檢討避免民眾覺得你這樣沒有回答我啦你具體告訴我就是說這個計畫什麼時候可以出來啦我們大概會用半年的時間來檢討這件事情"},{"start":11637.455,"end":11656.705,"text":"就是今年底可以出來是吧對今年底可以出來兩千億用在什麼地方說不定不夠再加還有騎乘的問題對還有騎乘的問題另外一個東西我關心因為我時間到了我就不要拖太多時間了請部長回答一下我們到宜蘭那一段是不是高鐵宜蘭確定"},{"start":11659.311,"end":11676.403,"text":"2036可以通車嗎向委員報告目前這個案子行政院還沒核定等核定之後我們才有辦法去確定他的整個通車的時間屏東呢屏東的部分也還沒有核定所以這兩個都還沒有核定這個宜蘭要花多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":11677.899,"end":11699.788,"text":"其實他還在浮動當中接近四千億四千億左右實際上他真正在開始做了之後整個價格應該會應該會再往上了所以整個交通部這個像高鐵老實講這個不管是在往南沿屏東往北沿宜蘭都是交通部要買單的"},{"start":11701.668,"end":11724.155,"text":"我們針對務實延伸的計畫其實都有在進行我是最後一點提醒這個石董市長這個我看起來你的2000億沒有你是一個大概一箱你沒有具體的來講就是2000億主要主要你是要發債還是主要就是跟銀行借一個答案我就下去"},{"start":11726.838,"end":11735.289,"text":"高鐵本來就有發公司債也本來就有跟銀行連帶我想會依照原本的制度來進行這個規劃好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝賴思邦委員 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長接下來請萬美玲委員發言"},{"start":11750.242,"end":11754.69,"text":"謝謝召委 我們有請陳士凱部長還有石澤董事長來 請陳部長跟石董事長委員好"},{"start":11760.779,"end":11781.73,"text":"好兩位好那我想今天召委排這個525這個史上最嚴重高鐵延誤事件的一個報告那但是呢蠻可惜的是啊到現在為止我們還不知道到底實際發生這件事情的原因是什麼那我想首先是不是我先就教一下部長那一天您也受到這個延誤卡在高鐵上嗎是當時什麼心情"},{"start":11783.361,"end":11808.809,"text":"當然蠻焦急 因為是焦急自己的會議行程還是不是 當然是對於整個運據因為我在車上也感受到其他旅客大家心裡面的焦急那對交通部來講所有的旅客他的運輸都是交通部必須要負責的所以感同身受當然好 石董事長是 我想當時您在哪裡等一下 稍等一下 您想好再回答我當時您在哪裡"},{"start":11809.841,"end":11835.913,"text":"我接到這個發生這個就說延誤事件發生那個當下您人在哪裡我接到這個應變中心成立的時候我人在高雄你在高雄對所以我馬上在高鐵上嗎所以我馬上就趕往公司當然會在高鐵上所以當時你也在高鐵上嗎對好那就是既然這個延誤事件在當下其實我們知道大家都在說你看我們交通部的部長也卡在高鐵上"},{"start":11836.573,"end":11850.747,"text":"所以他一定能夠感同身受這個旅客交集啊無奈甚至氣憤的心情但是因為大家遲遲都沒有看到石董事長出來那今天呢我知道了今天我也才知道就是石董事長原來您也卡在高鐵上嗎是嗎"},{"start":11851.579,"end":11875.494,"text":"是 但是我在高雷上事實上是用視訊的方法在跟總經理進行我理解喔那所以你應該也可以感同身受在當時喔那整個焦慮的心情跟旅客有很多無奈嘛沒有錯嘛那我想請教一下為什麼我們陳總經理也在這裡嘛那陳總經理在611號的時候投書了自由時報來說明了這個事故發生前後的應變啦決策啦那包括就是這個"},{"start":11877.975,"end":11893.295,"text":"他又寫到他說這個異見事常發生之後高鐵成立應變中心董事長使者坐鎮在總公司指揮但是當時你人是在高鐵上啊我後來就進總公司了所以是後來嘛對不對我今天要講的是為什麼"},{"start":11894.096,"end":11922.175,"text":"在事件發生以後啊我們這個部長或者是董事長這麼重要第一個呢你馬上就要上指揮的第一線嘛第二個呢其實民眾看到今天部長或是董事長出來那不管你怎麼樣去安撫大家也好然後去講清楚現在後面應該是怎麼做那我覺得這都是非常重要的一個指標啦所以因此我不太了解說為什麼啊就是是石董事長因為您那時候在忙沒有辦法出來跟媒體跟大眾講清楚所以事後要請我們陳總經理去投書媒體是這樣嗎"},{"start":11924.516,"end":11943.809,"text":"為什麼要選擇這個方式而不是出來好好的開個記者會跟大家講清楚跟委員報告我想我們歷經各式各樣的應變過程不管是刑決院各部會還是高鐵事實上在應變的當下其實都並沒有首長或機關首長出面來直接面對媒體都是由發言體系因為應變當下應該是專注在應變的執行"},{"start":11948.132,"end":11965.185,"text":"投訴媒體都是比較少見啦投訴媒體是事後的事情所以我是認為啦就是說我們希望以後都不要再有這樣的事情發生但是在這件事情上面我覺得還有非常多值得檢討的地方那我們再來看喔就是說目前初步調查是說一個叫做轉側氣控制這個機箱它的電源模組出現異常嘛"},{"start":11969.949,"end":11986.745,"text":"那現在你已經找到了所謂的第三方來檢查認證這樣比較有公信力可是呢 剛才今天早上我一直聽到就是說我們不能夠確定到底這個報告什麼時候會出來但是我想民眾或者是我們所有的國人也沒有辦法無限的去等"},{"start":11987.526,"end":12004.902,"text":"我們希望大家這個腳步能加快那就本席了解財團法人這個鐵道技術研究及驗證中心也是屬於我們交通部的財團法人那就這個比較直屬的這個部分是不是我們可以去催促什麼方式可以更快一點有沒有一個預計大概多久的時程會出來"},{"start":12006.605,"end":12024.665,"text":"向委員報告您在指示的這件事我們會來催促那不過因為他們是專業單位我們也希望說他就專業不要讓他急著要出報告就專業去研析出真正的原因這個蠻重要的所以我們會去催促請他盡量快那不過他的時程出來了我們會馬上向委員來報告"},{"start":12025.526,"end":12052.23,"text":"好那另外今天早上其實也有提到就是說這次更換這個電源模組這是高鐵公司在2024年開始執行的一個三年期的一個耗資系統更新計畫嘛那如果2024照講應該就是2026今年還會完成我看起來進度也還不錯也就是我們現在已經完成了大概有371組所以這個佔比大概83.5%的完成率那按照這個完成率本期看應該今年是可以完成"},{"start":12052.79,"end":12075.407,"text":"那可見它是一個新的東西那是不是 請教一下部長跟董事長為什麼新的東西會出這麼大一個包呢跟委員報告 它是新品 不是新的設備所以事實上執行的過程也相當的順利所以這一次我們事實上把更換下來的這八個單元件事實上都已經證據保全事實上也上了封條"},{"start":12076.027,"end":12094.47,"text":"目前第三方包括高科大包括田園中心包括日方我了解你的意思就是我們講的啦我們不管什麼新設備新品總是它就是一個新的東西嘛新的東西馬上出這麼大包它的問題就很大那我今天特別在委員會指出來說關於這一點真的要給大家一個交代"},{"start":12094.83,"end":12113.233,"text":"一個新的計畫預算也下去了執行完畢眼看的執行率就要完成之前出這麼大的包這個非同小可我覺得這個相關的責任跟這個原因事故我就要弄清楚所以我希望在部長剛剛講說我們在這個報告出來的時候這一點要能夠非常的明白這樣好不好"},{"start":12113.994,"end":12139.694,"text":"那所以因此今天我想本席終於釐清了在當時事件發生的時候呢大家都說史哲部長神隱啦可是呢看起來其實當時你只要說你發生事情你也是在趕回來的路上那也卡在高鐵上這件事就沒有了嘛就不會一直媒體都在說你神隱起來神隱起來嘛所以我覺得以後什麼事情坦坦白白坦坦蕩蕩就說我也在趕回來的路上那就不至於大家覺得說奇怪董事長去哪裡了"},{"start":12140.794,"end":12164.702,"text":"我從來都沒有不坦白那媒體說你生意你也不出來講講話對不對 你到今天才說你也卡在高鐵上我從頭到尾都說明很清楚我每個時間在做什麼應變當下都是由執行單位進行應變完以後才是由首長來進行但是關心你人在哪裡啊我從頭到尾都說我在總公司事件都發生你在總公司那過程你有沒有卡在高鐵上"},{"start":12165.526,"end":12186.457,"text":"我在去公司之前是卡在高鐵上可是我全日都在公司我覺得啦這些聽起來是自為莫解的小事但是你要知道在當時你是高鐵的董事長發生這麼大的事情其實你很重要所以千萬不要再有這種所謂的什麼神隱啊然後找不到人的狀況好不好我們其實應該要求說我神隱的人能夠說明我在哪裡啦好不好 謝謝我問完了嗎那你這樣離開的意思是"},{"start":12196.317,"end":12215.451,"text":"算了算了 反正你也不想答詢 那你就先離開吧部長 我們繼續我想高鐵這一題 請董事長先回座休息了我們這個獨駕的部分剛剛聽到這個很高興上一次在這裡本席在質詢的時候我們有共同的看法就是說獨駕跟酒駕 兩個一樣可物至極"},{"start":12216.272,"end":12230.498,"text":"但是因為獨駕本身就是犯罪行為犯罪行為再去駕車肇事最佳一等所以今天也看到部長很高興履行上次您的承諾跟看法修法的方向我們傾向於把獨駕跟酒駕脫鉤而且要把獨駕加重"},{"start":12233.979,"end":12244.482,"text":"那當然也看到今天您有說好幾個加重的方式往這個方向走但我在想幾個數據今天還是必須拿出來看一下你看我們114年這個獨駕8659件那但是呢這個115年1到4月其實就高達4700多件"},{"start":12252.404,"end":12272.057,"text":"最近陸陸續續獨駕造成的旱事也越來越多所以我覺得我們修法的腳步其實要快那當然交通部沒有問題跟我們所有的委員看法都一致我覺得這個修法版本提出來之後不管是您這裡提出來的版本行政院送來委員會跟我們委員提出來的版本我相信它會有一致性"},{"start":12272.657,"end":12288.312,"text":"不過今天針對一個就本席看到交通部在內政委員會的報告當中也有指出來說交通部有喊請法務部要提高獨駕的相關刑罰那這個部分因為您有提醒他希望往這個方向走那法務部有沒有跟您提他的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":12288.892,"end":12309.308,"text":"鄉委員報告加重的這個方向各部會大家都有共識所以法務部也會將他的刑責的部分來加重另外對於毒品的認定像依托米子目前很像應該是三級會提升到變一級因為這個對社會的危害相當相當大所以法務部的方向也跟我們是一致的"},{"start":12309.755,"end":12334.452,"text":"好那最後一個我想請教一下就是我們現在修法方向是確認說用一二級毒品即使沒有開車會直接吊銷駕照那三四級是吊扣那這個部分我們一旦確立了之後我們會溯及既往嗎我們現在只要名單有交給我們跟執法單位也好或者是跟法務部也好有拿到名單相關的名單我們就全部就會來落實"},{"start":12335.526,"end":12350.588,"text":"好 我們方向既然一致也覺得獨家的可惡那我覺得這個絕對是要修重罰那但是我們的速度其實要加快因為我們要知道我們每慢一天就可能有憾事再多一件所以這個我們有共同的目標也希望部長能夠加速好不好好 我們會加速 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12353.288,"end":12366.174,"text":"好 謝謝萬美蓮委員的發言 謝謝部長還是要提醒一下備詢的官員在委員沒有請你回座之前 不要自行回座好 接下來請何新淳委員發言何新淳委員不在接下來請葉元芝委員發言"},{"start":12379.15,"end":12407.751,"text":"主席好 我們請部長還有台鐵總經理好 請陳部長我們請方總經理委員好部長我是有一個有關台鐵的問題但是等一下細節可以請總經理回答但是請部長表達一個態度好 沒問題因為最主要現在就是我們已經進入高齡化社會了所以各縣政府都有推那個敬老卡像台北 新北在7月1號開始都把敬老卡"},{"start":12408.692,"end":12428.538,"text":"提高了像我們新北市變成600點 本來是480點那這個敬老卡當初最主要的用途是鼓勵長輩出門當然一部分是敬老那出門就要搭車嘛就以我們新北來講一開始是主要是坐捷運公車後來大概在幾年前也開放給台鐵使用可是台鐵有一項措施對長輩是非常不友善"},{"start":12431.358,"end":12457.284,"text":"部長聽聽看台鐵有一個措施是對長輩非常不友善在使用敬老卡的部分因為敬老卡通常它是有結合悠遊卡的功能那台鐵只有在進出的閘口有設悠遊卡功能所以他們可以刷進跟刷出可是他們不能夠到櫃台去買對號的車所以自強號的話他們即便是坐火車都要站有時候要擠"},{"start":12459.384,"end":12487.662,"text":"被趕來趕去那我覺得這對長輩來說是非常不友善而且這個也會減少讓長輩使用的動機為什麼呢因為如果會坐到台鐵的話通常都是比較長程嘛那如果長程不讓他買對號的車子的話沒有座位坐的話他們乾脆就不坐台鐵我覺得也讓這個美意大打折扣那我是不曉得為什麼台鐵一直不願意在櫃台裝設可以讓讓長輩可以讓悠遊卡買對號列車我不懂因為"},{"start":12488.542,"end":12504.156,"text":"據我的了解好像以前縣市政府就有反應過那這其實就是只要裝你就可以解決很多長輩搭車不便的問題那在這樣一個敬老的社會是不是先請台鐵回答一下好不好等一下再部長表達一個態度啦好不好"},{"start":12505.397,"end":12530.351,"text":"委員好確實各縣市政府有部分的縣市政府也有反應是不是他們的敬老卡社福卡可以使用台鐵那目前搭乘我們的區間車都沒有問題我們結合T-pass也都可以不用講我剛剛沒有問的問題就針對問題回答好不好那我們現在委員提的問題主要是這個裁員是地方政府的裁員他們是給老人點數"},{"start":12531.812,"end":12553.596,"text":"那這個點數必須要透過我們的票務系統去換算成這個錢我們還要跟地方政府來做申請款項所以剛剛委員講說不是我們裝了我們的票務系統裝了一個設備就地方的這個勁老卡就可以使用必須要得到地方政府的同意不是本來人家就等一下等一下總經理你再給我隨便亂講我剛剛已經說了嘛你們的閘門是可以的嘛"},{"start":12558.197,"end":12583.662,"text":"那咱們也有跟地方政府轉換點數變現金的問題啊現在的問題是買票的時候沒有辦法刷嘛你去跟我扯別的幹嘛不好意思我問的問題我都很直接而且我也希望你針對我的問題回答不要繞圈圈如果繞圈圈就顯示心虛而且地方政府是希望台鐵可以幫忙去設那個設備嘛所以你不用什麼事都在那邊扯好不好我就討厭官員在這個國會殿堂胡說八道浪費時間你可不可以針對問題回答"},{"start":12585.862,"end":12612.292,"text":"報告委員現在關鍵就是如果要增加那個設備我們在六月下旬就會請各地方政府來協調第一個所有的地方政府大家要協調要同意第二個是增加這個設備的費用必須要大家一起來分攤那個設備費用那裝置裝上去以後這我們的這個老人他才可以用他的各縣市發的這個社福卡來使用我們的票務系統"},{"start":12613.638,"end":12628.852,"text":"第一個喔第一個比如說啦在板橋站你在板橋站的櫃台那邊去設一個可以去刷悠遊卡去買對號路坐車你可以就針對板橋站啊這個為什麼需要全國的各縣市通通都同意的"},{"start":12631.154,"end":12645.089,"text":"關鍵在於這個裁員是地方政府編列所以地方政府編列嘛所以比如說我長輩他使用他買200塊錢的票那這200塊錢的票的車價當然你去跟地方政府算沒錯啊沒有錯嘛然後第二個"},{"start":12646.13,"end":12665.315,"text":"你本來你算是提供服務嘛對不對就像有一些店家他會提供刷卡機對不對那他為什麼要提供刷卡機因為如果有刷卡機的話人家買東西會刺激人家買東西嘛因為我今天去買一件衣服一萬塊錢比如說啦那我沒有那麼多現金你有刷卡我這一萬塊我就付了啊但你沒有刷卡機不好意思我可能就不來買啦"},{"start":12666.115,"end":12692.906,"text":"所以店家他為了要刺激自己的營業額他會去裝刷卡機你現在的講法很奇怪你的意思是說如果我在櫃台去設那個可以使用優惠卡的設備的話那這個錢不應該我來負擔因為地方政府一起來付這個裝置的錢不是啊你如果有這個裝置你同樣的可以讓那些長輩願意多搭台鐵也可以增加你的營收嘛我不太懂為什麼台鐵你對於做這麼簡單的事情你理由那麼多"},{"start":12693.726,"end":12711.294,"text":"你對長輩好一點是會怎麼樣你民進黨政府都不希望敬老嗎你包括你們民進黨政府裡面很多立委現在在選市長都說要提高敬老卡結果你說要提高敬老卡的金額但你不願意讓人家更方便使用講那麼一大堆理由沒有一個我聽得下去的部長"},{"start":12712.148,"end":12731.079,"text":"你跟那個總經理講一下好不好他講的沒有一個理由是我聽得下去的民進黨政府相當敬老齁這個部分要跟他講一套要做一套要講到要做到啦連一個在櫃台設一個裝置都不願意我這樣聽起來其實事情蠻簡單對是不是您在要求說這件事要趕快做"},{"start":12731.559,"end":12754.751,"text":"那台鐵公司也有在研議也有在找地方政府在討論這件事不是沒有你怎麼知道有他剛剛他才在講六月底那麼剛好喔沒問就沒有你們剛剛已經建議好幾年了他剛剛已經有說了他有說已經在找地方政府開會大家看這個請問一下是幾月幾號開會所以需要時間幾月幾號開會我們六月底前六月底以前不要隨便信口開河你現在如果說六月底開會你有個時間嘛請問是幾月幾號"},{"start":12756.992,"end":12765.526,"text":"你不要隨便講因為我現在問了就六月底今天是六月了就六月底你現在應該有具體的時間了請問是幾月幾號請問是幾月幾號你也有具體時間幾月幾號開會之前也跟各縣市都詢問過沒有"},{"start":12772.236,"end":12795.756,"text":"有有沒有怎麼問我們有發函給各自不是嘛今天第一個部長部長我覺得部長部長今天其實我我認為這個事情你不會知道了部長我認為您不會知道了但是今天為什麼會在這個地方您在前面問他因為在你的高度你應該覺得這個是很容易辦到的事情那剛剛台鐵總經理講的所有的理由我覺得沒有一個成立的"},{"start":12796.076,"end":12812.013,"text":"還有說那個裝你在櫃台設一個刷卡的設備還要地方政府同意喔這是多難的高科技啊這個就是你賣衣服的店家去跟銀行生一個刷卡設備這麼簡單而已還要去找地方政府開會這你要不要做的問題嘛部長"},{"start":12814.176,"end":12826.148,"text":"這個你自己判斷一下只是設一個刷卡的機器而已讓大家可以刷悠遊卡扣進勞卡點數就這麼簡單喔不要搞得好像驚天地氣鬼神的多大工程一樣"},{"start":12827.601,"end":12848.88,"text":"你說的公道話好不好這個我相信你之前不知道啦這件事已經在做了那您再說沒有開會我可以請他們會議的資料提供給你他剛剛講了一堆不能做的理由我都聽不下去你聽得下去嗎他剛剛講了一大堆不能做的理由你聽得下去嗎結論很簡單第一我們會做確定喔你會做好什麼時候"},{"start":12850.522,"end":12873.376,"text":"我們會加速但必須要跟地方政府開會這個不用跟地方政府開會啦設一個刷卡機也要開會我們要裝VISA的刷卡機也要VISA公司同意啊大家要講好實踐啦地方政府第一個地方政府都是還發文給台鐵希望他裝人家都拜託台鐵裝了你還要問台鐵你還要問地方政府同不同意"},{"start":12874.556,"end":12881.922,"text":"你們這個邏輯大家聽得懂嗎沒關係部長如果你覺得可以做的話你給個時間嘛好不好這個我們都會做啊然後大概什麼時候"},{"start":12883.067,"end":12906.841,"text":"需要時間去跟大概什麼時候嘛牛年馬月還是怎麼樣我們已經講了六月底之前會六月底以前會定案是不是會開會六月底會開會然後大概這個應該不難嗎大概什麼時候可以報告委員如果我們說六月底開會我要求七月一號要開始但地方政府不同意我怎麼辦我沒有要求你我可以自己開始嗎那如果地方政府同意的話大概什麼時候可以同意就會有結論所以目前還沒開會不會有結論啊"},{"start":12908.522,"end":12935.713,"text":"現在要推給地方政府那假設地方因為我知道地方政府因為我知道地方政府希望敬老給長輩其實我們大家都是希望長輩可以去坐那個台鐵這個方向我們是同意的但是呢我不知道這個東西為什麼那麼困難無法回答還要推給地方政府沒有人在推啊沒有人在做啦其實剛剛他六月底是隨便講的啦委員不然是哪幾月幾號唯一資料都可以提供給你啦六月底好幾月幾號你現在有講啊幾月幾號要開會啊"},{"start":12937.234,"end":12952.692,"text":"所以我們要限市政府的時間大家要都能夠出席啊我們要約他們他們要同意啊你約他他不同意這種話你講的你自己聽得懂嗎報告委員這個預算是委員現場可能你聽不懂但其他人或許聽得懂聽得懂嗎"},{"start":12954.133,"end":12977.51,"text":"你約他他要同意你現在意思是說你們台鐵想要裝但是地方政府不想裝所以你約他他可能不來但我的了解是地方都很希望台鐵裝你故意把它扭曲成說是地方政府好像找地方政府同意很困難我覺得大家解決問題不要用這種話術的方式不是每一個縣市都願意這麼做那有縣市願意你就先做啊只是裝個刷卡機而已啊"},{"start":12978.05,"end":13005.125,"text":"我們要整體去討論而且你們閘門就有嘛你們現在只是說在買票的櫃檯偵測一個嘛你閘門就有嘛所以大家都是願意的嘛好啦沒關係啦你既然你承諾六月底開會我也不想吵這個東西啦那就往前走好然後另外安全的問題我請教一下再給我兩分鐘這個3月27號三家有那個那時候電車有一個發生一個事故嘛就是因為他的那個集電"},{"start":13006.533,"end":13020.588,"text":"急電工有把那個電線扯斷那我是有看到好像上個禮拜你們有懲處嘛五個人嘛懲處五個人那這個急電工可能疑似是維修你們認為是可能沒有確實維修所以有去處罰了檢修員"},{"start":13022.21,"end":13051.37,"text":"然後他不知道是不是螺絲沒鎖還是那個急電工救了所以導致這個狀況可是除了三家之外其實最近急電工發生故障或事故其實蠻多起的包括一兩個禮拜前在台東也有一起然後在清明年假那時候4月5號的時候在宜蘭也有一起反正就陸陸續續我們都可以在新聞看到因為急電工的問題導致於這個車子出現故障然後延誤三家那一次是最嚴重的因為延誤到大概"},{"start":13052.21,"end":13071.656,"text":"延誤了非常久那我想問一下那這個是一個都是個案嗎還是說它是在維修上面SOP有問題還是其實人力有台鐵現在人力有出現斷層是哪一個包委這集電工3加3月27號集電工是因為集電工的原來設計不良造成"},{"start":13072.176,"end":13098.666,"text":"那我們在四月底所有的集電工都換成一體成型的集電工那所以這個未來這個集電工900型的集電工不會再發生同樣的問題了這個我們已經解決那委員剛剛有提到說在其他的這個宜蘭或台東它那個是吊掛線電競設備的吊掛線鏽蝕造成的那集電工去勾到吊掛線所以這個部分我們也全線的在做整個特檢"},{"start":13099.406,"end":13120.092,"text":"那在像台東到花蓮我們就是八月底會完全全部特檢那宜蘭縣的部分我們在這個七月的七月份我們會完成全部的特檢南回五月二十九號我們已經全部特檢完了所以我們透過這全面的特檢更換希望這個能夠有效的降低這個電力設備發生同樣問題的一個風險好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝葉遠之委員謝謝部長"},{"start":13129.483,"end":13153.462,"text":"現在請郵號委員發言郵號郵號不在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢我們就以下決定報告及詢問完畢委員陳素月傅坤琦郵號何新淳徐欣委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員與諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未經答覆的部分請交通部及相關機關緊述與書面答覆本次會議結束散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}