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謝謝大家早安我們有好多好多的老朋友好久不見很開心今天呢在這個會議的公聽會上面在跟好多的老朋友我們的專家學者長期以來關心原住民所有法案的還有未來我們該如何推動原住民族的自治土地"},{"start":1823.144,"end":1837.123,"text":"還有海域的法我想我先跟大家報告一下從我第一屆進入到立法院也就是第五屆的時候呢2002年我們就已經開始推動了原住民族基本法"},{"start":1838.447,"end":1854.975,"text":"然後一直到94年的1月21號這一部原住民的大法終於完成了可是到現在也已經20多年了而這本法律本來的目的是要保障原住民族的自治"},{"start":1855.555,"end":1873.208,"text":"土地文化教育還有生活權益讓我們族人的權利不僅僅只是寫在紙上而是真正的能夠落實到日常生活可是呢我們看一下這20多年過去了我們有非常多的重要的制度還沒有完成"},{"start":1874.008,"end":1898.603,"text":"而今天呢我們在場也有我們園民會的前主委也在現場所以呢我們非常的開心也非常的高興今天來到的專家學者還有在場關心原住民權益的不僅僅有專家學者有我們的議員那當然還有都會區的一些問題那另外就是原住民族教育法在87年制定也隔了21年"},{"start":1900.117,"end":1928.536,"text":"而我們在一百零八年也就是我擔任教育文化召委的時候我們把原教法全文修正了然後我們把原住民族教育的新篇章入法到現在呢也已經七年過去了我覺得我們需要再一次的盤點檢討還有修正特別是要建構原住民族教育體系也就是賴清德總統說的"},{"start":1930.475,"end":1956.451,"text":"要建立雙軌制的援助民族的教育體系我想今天不僅僅是專家學者然後在場的還有中央各部會的我們的公務人員長期以來我們並肩合作的朋友們也在現場所以我相信今天的公聽會應該會是一個非常具體而且有前瞻而且可以落實的一個公聽會"},{"start":1957.552,"end":1977.652,"text":"然後我們的另外一個議題就是都市原住民的人口已經超過了原住民族等人口的六成了而都市原住民族在居住、就業、教育還有文化傳承上面社會福利甚至於公共參與上面都面臨到跟原鄉不同的制度的需求"},{"start":1978.613,"end":2000.395,"text":"立法院第一會期不分草野我們都已經提出了都市原住民族發展條例草案顯示這個議題是有高度共識跟立法的必要性可是原住民族委員會曾經也承諾過在第二會期的時候你們會提出院版的草案但是到現在已經兩年了"},{"start":2001.696,"end":2017.778,"text":"仍然没有见到具体的版本我们很想要试问的是都是原住民族发展条例的政策的必要性核心的规范还有它的方向法制的规划还有建议具体提出的期程到底"},{"start":2018.419,"end":2035.346,"text":"是怎麼樣所以呢我們希望今天在場的中央部會包括園民會尤其是園民會能夠在這個公聽會裡面跟我們的主任們來陳述一下未來所謂的都市援助民族發展條例你們的"},{"start":2036.488,"end":2037.409,"text":"盧凱族民主議會議長杜正吉"},{"start":2060.68,"end":2077.07,"text":"然後再來是張虛大高齡健康照護園民專班的副教授再介紹的是蘇美娟老師新竹縣武豐鄉桃山國民小學的校長"},{"start":2078.951,"end":2107.161,"text":"繼續介紹的是我們全行政院原住民組委員會主任委員我第一次到立法院來的時候他就是我們的這個主委您辛苦了也是我們園運的前輩那繼續是一直以來我非常尊敬而且呢堅定原住民立場的施政鋒教授再來介紹的是這裡第五個第七在哪"},{"start":2110.353,"end":2125.373,"text":"再介紹的是王仙蓮她是非常關心我們桃園都會區的族人安美族的仙蓮 謝謝議員然後介紹的是蘇偉恩議員也是我們桃園市的非常年輕優秀的市議員"},{"start":2127.21,"end":2146.218,"text":"好 再來是Marcel BillingMarcel Billing校長是桃園市羅浮高級中等學校的校長在學校呢 這個非常多的孩子今天也帶了很多孩子自己做的麵包上來要跟大家分享好 謝謝再來還有"},{"start":2148.345,"end":2175.565,"text":"再來是瓦恩斯貝里也是我們前行政院原住民組委員會主任委員也是我曾經在立法院的好同事原基法就是在我們手上推動成功的非常歡迎好我們來繼續介紹有施政鋒老師對應該都有介紹了好來再繼續我來介紹一下中央的與會官員原住民委員會副主任委員古仲"},{"start":2180.271,"end":2188.978,"text":"副組委杜璋梅莊中規處處長曾興忠教文處處長陳坤生經濟發展處處長王瑞銀土地管理處副處長高文斌"},{"start":2198.973,"end":2226.761,"text":"公共建設處的副處長 周錫瑋社會福利處的處長 主計處的主任 黃美嘉內政部衛福勞動處的副處長 賈玉昌地政司的檢任視察 張哲銘民政司的專門委員 戴淑黃"},{"start":2228.71,"end":2256.119,"text":"圖管署的專門委員 連偉耀檢任視察 曾立儀國際公園署的專門委員 陳慶芳法務部的參事 謝志明衛福部社會救助及社公司的副司長 楊雅蘭護理及健康照護司的副司長 陳清梅財政部國有財產署副組長 羅玉華"},{"start":2259.29,"end":2288.371,"text":"負稅署專門委員張雅玲專門委員林美惠專門委員林保全勞動部勞動條件及就業平等司副司長王金榮勞動力發展署的專門委員王立文教育部中環窺花師的副司長張金淑國民學前教育署原名特教主副署長林淑敏"},{"start":2290.749,"end":2316.831,"text":"國家教育研究院原住民族教育研究中心主任周惠明農業部林業及自然保育署主任李允忠農村發展水土保護署科長莊志展漁業署檢任記政莊生偉文化部綜合規劃師專門委員廖妮妮行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員陳淑萍"},{"start":2320.748,"end":2341.445,"text":"基金預算處專門委員吳婉玉我們還有來一位台灣原住民族政策協會理事長陳敏媛歡迎我們鄒族的對吧"},{"start":2343.231,"end":2350.876,"text":"好久不見好我們也來了一個新竹的議員林慈愛歡迎都會區的議員謝謝我大概宣告一下程序我們先請部會簡短報告之後我們再請專家學者發言然後我們依照初期的簽到順序為原則每一位發言的時間是8分鐘"},{"start":2370.609,"end":2387.197,"text":"然後如果有我們本月委員要發言的時候麻煩到主席台登記在兩位專家學者發言之後我們就會安排一位委員發言每一位委員的發言時間是五分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表要回應說明"},{"start":2388.658,"end":2412.292,"text":"然後發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時就是在我們前面發言時間結束的前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束就會按兩聲那當然了因為今天很難得我們原住民的公聽會我們與會的專家學者還有議員們你們可以暢所欲言我會給你們多一點的時間我們現在就先請部會來報告"},{"start":2417.182,"end":2443.015,"text":"對 抱歉還有一位國立東華大學民族發展跟社會工作學系的副教授陳張培倫也是我們以前園民會的副主委他對於教育的部分是非常非常的專業非常歡迎還有比利亞部校長今天本來要來的結果他父親今天早上到醫院去所以我們希望能夠大家來祈禱也祝福他的父親能夠"},{"start":2444.436,"end":2447.458,"text":"主席 各位機關代表 還有我們議會的先進 大家好 大家平安"},{"start":2473.417,"end":2495.251,"text":"感謝大家對原住民基本法推動情形的關心與指教有關本次公聽會關注推動現況及相關制度的精進議題本會僅就目前辦理情形及未來規劃的方向簡要說明另外會裡面也有提供相關的書面資料請各位委員跟先進們大家自行參閱"},{"start":2496.823,"end":2521.073,"text":"原住民族基本法施行至今已經有超過20年在行政院及各部會共同推動下原基法推動會列管了90項法案均逐步制定及修正多數配套法治及政策措施已經陸續完成建構建立原住民族權利保障的重要基礎目前原住民族各項重要法治工作均持續積極推動中"},{"start":2523.781,"end":2548.148,"text":"首先要在這個都市原住民發展的方面因應超過六成族人居住在都市地區本會持續推動都市原住民族發展條例相關的研議工作並透過都市原住民族發展方案結合跨部會的資源回應族人在教育、就業、文化及社會福利等需求同時也將因應平埔族"},{"start":2549.577,"end":2567.954,"text":"評普原住民族身份法的施行以後原住民族人口及社會結構已產生了巨大的變化因此上開的條例之原因應配合現今的情勢變化滾動式的整體檢視政策與制度的規劃其次在原住民族中有發展基金部分"},{"start":2569.093,"end":2591.174,"text":"本會持續關注基金財務永續的發展透過預算的挹注以及行政院協助的機制確保基金穩健運作另外從供給及需求的角度分析目前基金數額上足以滿足各項原住民族政策及工作推動的需求在原住民族教育方面近年政府持續增加投資"},{"start":2592.555,"end":2610.267,"text":"無論在足以復振民族教育、都市原住民族教育或偏鄉教育資源挹注方面均以展現具體的成果未來也將持續透過人才培育、文化傳承以及教育資源的支持促進教育平權與文化永續的發展"},{"start":2611.195,"end":2636.792,"text":"最後在原住民族自治、土地、海域以及傳統領域等重要議題上面本會將持續透過部落公法人的示範推動各項法治研修作業以及社會對話等方式穩健推進相關制度的建構並兼顧原住民族權益保障、社會共識及整體發展需求下逐步完善原住民族相關法治體制保障族人權益"},{"start":2637.679,"end":2654.783,"text":"未來本會將持續秉持原住民族基本法的精神透過跨部會及中央地方協力的機制滾動檢討各項政策措施持續精進原住民族權益保障工作以上報告敬請各位委員及先進的指教"},{"start":2663.725,"end":2690.593,"text":"另外因為我們也來了一位副主委國眾副主委有沒有要不用嗎那待會如果有一些問題要詢問你就麻煩一下好謝謝好繼續呢我們請專家學者發言然後我們按照初期的簽到順序我們第一位請的是杜政吉也就是盧凱民主議會的議長"},{"start":2711.432,"end":2739.292,"text":"主席、高警委員、沙保還有我們在座的部會官員還有我們在座的學者、專家還有我們部落的幹部沙保盧凱族、高警委員和督政局發言第一個我要發言的是針對我們第四個提綱原住民自治"},{"start":2741.412,"end":2754.723,"text":"我們每一位桌上都有一份非常漂亮的封面紅黃綠然後有雄鷹的羽毛還有百合花這是盧凱族自治研究的報告書這份報告書的出現"},{"start":2759.287,"end":2785.619,"text":"是他的原由是這樣在總統府原轉會原轉會的會議當中大家對我們原住民自治法一直沒有辦法通過有很多的建議那過了20年原住民自治法一直沒有辦法通過之下我們是不是另辟蹊徑是基於這樣的一個理由然後盧凱族推出"},{"start":2787.02,"end":2811.452,"text":"是不是可以優先事辦這樣的一個理念然後在原總會有我們前任總統蔡英文的指示才認為原則可行然後我們現任總統賴清德賴總統他說遵照我們前任總統的指示和嘗試來辦理最後原民會"},{"start":2813.055,"end":2840.031,"text":"最後核定有三個族群有盧凱族泰勒哥族還有達烏族就是亞美推出試辦計畫那在推出試辦計畫之前先做所謂的自治研究的報告所以各位桌上出現的這個封面跟兩張的這個報告書裡面的這個比較重要的部分他的前身是這樣出現的"},{"start":2843.51,"end":2856.129,"text":"那經由這個報告書裡面我們可以看見要推出自治當然有它的難題在但是不是不可能解決要推出原住民自治"},{"start":2858.089,"end":2879.467,"text":"我們的下一步到底在哪裡盧凱族的研究報告書裡面他很清楚的指出來當我們要推出原住民自治的時候我們會遇到的困難有哪些我們的優勢是又有哪些所以他不是不可能"},{"start":2880.248,"end":2909.216,"text":"所以盧凱族提出這樣的一個版本是在我們原住民自治法沒有辦法還沒有辦法通過之下是不是就可以優先施辦那在這個地方我們要特別要請教原轉會希望我們這樣辦理原民會的核定三個族群盧凱族做了完整的這個調查報告那我們要請問下一步我們到底是什麼"},{"start":2910.851,"end":2925.803,"text":"我們做了這份報告之後就只有這份報告嗎我們下一步到底在哪裡所以我們建議基於這份報告書我們是不是可以成立推動小組"},{"start":2927.472,"end":2951.624,"text":"我們要有第一步才有第二步才有第三步這個是針對我們這個原住民自治這個區塊盧凱族優先來示範這個是針對這個這幾年的研究集合我們整個部落的共識然後做了一個完成的調查之後希望我們這個"},{"start":2955.066,"end":2980.387,"text":"整合起來然後我們看看是不是我們可以去做推動去做示範另外第二個針對原住民自治這個區塊部落公法人他什麼時候可以完成那在這個部落公法人推動這個示範計畫推動之前那有一個前提我們一定要顧慮到的是"},{"start":2982.506,"end":3006.477,"text":"每一個族群他的特性不一樣盧凱族、台灣族他是社會階級他本身就有所謂的部落會議從過去到現在外來政權還沒有進來的時候部落的運作本來就是根據整個部落會議正在運作他自己本身就是一個組織"},{"start":3008.14,"end":3025.813,"text":"那我們現在原民會推出來的部落公法人制度他現在正在推動的項目要準備建立的組織我們是不是有特別注意到劉凱族、排灣族這個區塊他原本就存在的這個部落組織"},{"start":3028.41,"end":3044.092,"text":"假如我們又要推動所謂的示範計畫然後跟現在的本來從過去到現在就已經存在的這個部落的組織部落運作的機制它會不會又產生跌床駕舞"},{"start":3045.154,"end":3062.976,"text":"所以這個是我們目前正在推動部落公法人的時候一定要特別注意的地方當我們可以善用原來的組織部落原來的運作的這個能量的時候我們要推動部落公法人是不是可以更順暢"},{"start":3064.608,"end":3080.538,"text":"所以在這個地方就是我們就這個建議建議在這個希望可以做各族群各部落的這個屬性的調查它是一個非常重要的調查"},{"start":3082.423,"end":3095.01,"text":"知道每個部落的屬性之後我們要推動我們才有依據所以這個是在這邊提出來的部分再來是針對這個我們這個都會區都會發展條例都市原住民發展條例這個區塊"},{"start":3116.328,"end":3123.132,"text":"那我這邊要特別提出來的部分是這個都市原住民發展條例我們離開原鄉部落到達這個都會區我們主要的目的落地生根最重要的要落地生根最重要的就是土壤土壤終究會貧瘠貧瘠之後一定要"},{"start":3146.516,"end":3161.646,"text":"這個肥料到底是什麼就是我們現在正在推動的準備還沒有共識的多次原子力發展條例那在這個地方有幾個原則我們希望可以把握住第一個融合與保留"},{"start":3163.082,"end":3184.5,"text":"我進入到都會區之後我怎麼樣跟大社會融合當中我又可以保留我原來的屬性第一個 融合與保留原則第二個是安全與勝分我進入到都會區我的生活第一個要求是我必須安全的我的身份是怎麼樣維護的第三個是成長與機會"},{"start":3187.11,"end":3196.319,"text":"那在這個當中我們多元發展條例是不是符合這三個這個原則我們希望我們在多元區生活我們是不是在靠運氣過日子我們的同胞住在多元區的同胞在到了嗎"},{"start":3213.007,"end":3236.645,"text":"在這個部分我們都會區的同胞他需要找到的是一個讓他在都會區成長的一個非常好的機會那這個他所要依據的是什麼就是我們都市原住民發展條例所以我們希望這個條例他是可以盡快的這個落實然後"},{"start":3237.827,"end":3254.955,"text":"很簡單的剛剛我講的這個前面的這個他必須符合的原則做這個原則性的這個建議希望我們在發展條例當中他是可以看見的以上是盧凱民主議會的建議謝謝 馬拉嫩沙保謝謝非常謝謝我們的杜正吉我們的民主議會的議長謝謝"},{"start":3264.083,"end":3280.318,"text":"剛剛提出他幾個建議跟提醒我們希望待會公部門也能夠回應一下那我先補充再說明一下今天還有一個討論提綱就是對於中發基金的財務缺口的問題那因為今天我們也有邀請到這個行政院組織總處公務預算處的這個官員有來"},{"start":3284.202,"end":3309.703,"text":"所以我要提醒一下也跟大家說明一下其實中發基金財務缺口非常的嚴重我們在115年到117年的時候我們行政院應該要撥補23億元然後我們的園民會其實也已經向我們行政院發文爭取了可是我們在今年的4月中核發展基金的月報裡面我們看到基金現在只有3.7億元了"},{"start":3312.365,"end":3320.767,"text":"累積虧損將近68億財務狀況已經瀕臨失衡然後行政院今年應該要撥補23億的可是僅僅撥補了5億連應該撥補的零頭都不到所以這一次我們園運會其實在5月份的時候也再度向行政院反映"},{"start":3335.631,"end":3360.785,"text":"業務推動的經費不足因為大家都知道中發基金的財務推如果有缺口的話我們有非常多的原住民的政策其實都沒有辦法推動了所以呢面對原住民長期以來基金的虧損還有如果撥補不齊的話我們未來是不是應該要推動法制化並且要"},{"start":3361.545,"end":3388.083,"text":"建立穩定明確而且可預期的撥補機制否則的話對於這個部分我也質詢過現在的圓明會主委我也甚至於請行政院這個組這種處到我辦公室來但是呢好像我們只預期行政院到底要不要給我講難聽一點圓明會有一點像乞丐原住民的族人"},{"start":3389.644,"end":3406.806,"text":"這個應該要推動政策的基金每一年就必須要行文向行政院要行政院要或不要還要端看你們的心情我覺得今天在談到原住民族基本的權益的時候連基金的撥補都不足的時候其實作為一個"},{"start":3407.347,"end":3422.3,"text":"主席在這邊開這個會議我實在有點心痛好 繼續我們來請我們的第二位的發言人是我們莊師大高齡健康照護員民專班的副教授Imao Sumi 謝謝 歡迎"},{"start":3430.223,"end":3445.731,"text":"大家好我是那個就是一茂淑敏那張思達第一次發言那這邊的話呢本人就是會建議就是原住民基本法的部分的精神那不是只有停留在今天的討論應該是實際上能夠就是未來能夠落實那的確就像剛剛主持人說的"},{"start":3453.135,"end":3457.317,"text":"而我們有很多的在權力的部分其實有些時候是被拿出來討論甚至有更多的時候其實是被磋商以及彈性的整個行政的制度甚至是一個就是辦法的部分去討論到我們很多的就是權力的這一塊這樣子"},{"start":3472.845,"end":3487.876,"text":"所以期待在這樣的一個會議之下我們很希望權力能夠未來其實是被法治甚至是回歸到一個法律的層次的部分那甚至像剛剛所講的綜合發展基金的部分"},{"start":3491.318,"end":3518.08,"text":"未來能夠就是在財源的部分能夠是真正的有一定比例的一個支出那像在這個部分的話呢因為我自己本身是屬於就是健康照顧的這一塊的領域所以在2024年的時候呢原住民健康法那他在推動的過程當中這當中呢有一個條例呢其實就是已經告訴了所有縣市政府說呢我們今天"},{"start":3519.241,"end":3544.114,"text":"支持的就是原住民族的這個健康的部分呢即便是從裁員的在支出的過程當中也匡列一定比例我想在匡列一定比例的概念裡面呢就是各縣市政府可依照自己的行政支出彈性去調整要給多或要給少這個是實際上我們所看到的一個現象那再來的部分的話呢有很多的治理"},{"start":3544.774,"end":3571.42,"text":"如果以法治的層次來看的話呢那麼原住民基本法二十多年來我們應該是要與時俱進並且呢因為這個我想蔡總統她在期待就是原住民族為主體的時候呢那麼台灣的主人如果是原住民的話呢那麼我們的主體性呢其實是在過程當中有些時候其實是被忽略如果我們今天是以夥伴的關係來去共同討論法規"},{"start":3572.66,"end":3588.571,"text":"共同討論整個就是原基法的部分的話或甚至是各種的這個法案的話那麼我們的夥伴關係的過程當中我們在共同治理的時候呢我們的角色是站在什麼樣的一個角色我覺得這個可能也是在我們大家在討論一個就是原基法在整個與時俱進跟彈性調整的過程當中呢它很重要的也就是大家在"},{"start":3598.318,"end":3624.277,"text":"討論這個法規的時候呢到底我們的價值 我們的理念我們把原住民族這個主體性是擺在什麼樣的一個位階上面那甚至有很多的資料它是否是應該要被透明的過程當中我們有很多 就像陳如我剛剛所講的從健康的這個資料的角度上有很多的資料 甚至是從那個原住民教育的這樣的一個角度上來看的時候呢"},{"start":3624.737,"end":3637.892,"text":"有很多的資料目前為止其實是沒有真正的被充分的調查沒有被真正的去進行分析甚至是看到背後的困難跟挑戰的地方在哪裡所以這邊當然我要提出幾個建設性的部分"},{"start":3644.079,"end":3669.178,"text":"包含呢 我想原民會的角度其實是提出了很多的挑戰跟政策的建議但我覺得國家級的支持是很重要的也就是呢 到底從國家的層次上來看從行政院的層次上來看的時候到底支不支持原民會所提出來的各種的這些的挑戰跟議題橫向的部分呢 是否能夠整合各部會"},{"start":3670.058,"end":3675.642,"text":"來去支持以及去解決就是原民會所提出來的一個議題我覺得縱向跟橫向的這種協調溝通以及面對我們現行的就是原基法可能要與時俱進的幾個議題呢我覺得這個是相當關鍵的重要那我當然個人我有就是整個看了我們在整個在這個原基法的"},{"start":3693.275,"end":3705.399,"text":"條例裡面要調整的一個過程那我想第一個建議因為我們居住在原住民地區都市區的原住民族人口已經是將近六成以上我覺得這六成裡面他們要面對什麼樣的問題"},{"start":3709.961,"end":3739.031,"text":"居住的居住權的議題在層住過程當中的費用跟這個他跟這個原鄉比較起來的確這一些原鄉的族人他本身要承擔很高的租賃甚至是這個生活的這個費用所以這件事情呢就是原住民族的發展條例目前是在草案的過程我覺得國家的層次或行政院的層次應該要承擔起這樣的一個就是主持跟主導的一個項目能夠去共同"},{"start":3739.691,"end":3768.026,"text":"去把這個原住民族發展條例的部分呢儘快的讓他能夠就是法治化甚至是就是權利化的部分那所以呢在這個發展條例裡面我們看到了居住權的威脅我們看到了就業權的威脅我們看到了原住民的孩子他在教育的過程當中不管從原鄉來到了都市區或者是都市區的這些的孩子他又面臨了這些的教育權"},{"start":3768.626,"end":3794.637,"text":"所受到的威脅啊我覺得這個發展條例的過程當中同時間他要與時俱進的來去做一個就是這個更改的部分甚至是呢要把真正族人都市原名的族人的權益放進來如果我們今天是屬人那麼原住民族我們就是一個主體但我們如果今天是屬地的時候呢要去把它給框出來的過程當中以及回到了我們的傳統文化"},{"start":3796.258,"end":3813.375,"text":"甚至我們屬人甚至我們主體性這樣的一個權利的時候呢大家能夠去公平性的去對待的時候呢那麼發展條例它的這個明朗化是相當重要的部分那再來啊 原住民族綜合發展基金如果沉入像剛剛主持人所說的這麼大的一個空缺在那個地方的時候呢"},{"start":3819.76,"end":3823.782,"text":"以現行的整個總體的經濟來看我們會因為通膨的關係我們會因為所有的需求的過程是不一樣的如果沒有辦法因為需求沒有辦法因為整個經濟的通膨的部分"},{"start":3835.647,"end":3856.56,"text":"來去擬定出一個就是最基本應該要給予甚至要滿足我們整個原住民族所需要的這些發展條例的基金而以過去20年來的這種評估的一個這個方式的話呢那這個地方的話呢個人會建議呢該是基礎的基金該是彈性的基金或者是有一個專家能夠去針對呢"},{"start":3858.402,"end":3874.762,"text":"這樣的一個就是基金的一個彈性的評估財務來源的一個評估呢我想這個是很重要的再來原住民族教育因為我在這個張詩達我們是教育體制所以呢在面對原住民孩子的時候有相當多仍然都還是在面對"},{"start":3876.264,"end":3891.819,"text":"經濟所造成他們在教育受到權上的一個威脅我覺得原住民族的這個教育裡面我們要培養的是什麼樣的人才真正的全民原教我們要教的是誰有沒有一個很好甚至是在教育的成績的過程當中"},{"start":3892.82,"end":3918.631,"text":"那麼呢哪一些的這個學生在是我們主要栽培的人才那這些人才他所付出的成本又是多少會不會因為我們齊頭式的補助過程當中而導致在某些人才上呢是沒有辦法能夠真正的被就是照顧到的最後我要講的是原住民基本法的第21條當中有所謂的公有的這樣的一個角度"},{"start":3919.671,"end":3948.717,"text":"好那所以呢在諮商局的統一權裡面呢儘快的就是落實就是所謂的公法人的部分呢由我們來去決定所謂的我們的原住民族的土地我們的所謂的傳統領域的這一塊而不再是以所謂的就是我們在原住民的這個土地上做這些的資源運用然後生態保育的甚至是研究的這一塊而只是匡列在原住民鄉鎮的部分我個人建議應該是要打破這樣的一個就是法規以上謝謝"},{"start":3950.68,"end":3963.714,"text":"好 非常謝謝我們一望書密教授好 繼續我們請蘇美娟校長美娟校長長期以來也是對於原住民的教育非常的深入 非常了解希望你今天給我們多一點的見解 謝謝"},{"start":3968.84,"end":3989.531,"text":"各位長官以及各位夥伴大家好那我今天就是以一個就是長期在最基層的現場教育現場的一個身份那我也在這個推動民主教育的過程當中其實它是一個跟其老的日落時間賽跑的一個過程那在我們原基法的第九條他說"},{"start":3992.253,"end":4005.551,"text":"我從第七條開始第七條說政府因依原住民族意願本多元平等尊重的精神保障原住民族教育之權利其相關事項另以法律定之那"},{"start":4007.694,"end":4022.462,"text":"在我們過去這幾年我們一直都覺得有很豐富的豐沛的資源來到我們民主學校包含我們的知識體系中心然後還有國教院"},{"start":4023.923,"end":4050.163,"text":"還有人民會持續帶領我們泰雅族做一個泰雅課綱那這個知識體系呢它其實最主要它就是發展我們的課程而這個整個知識的一個爬梳它就會成為我們教育現場所要運用的一個課程的內容那也會是我們要把這些知識傳遞下去做一個師資培育的一個重要的一個參考那"},{"start":4051.724,"end":4066.138,"text":"所以在這幾年我們泰雅族就跨縣市跨領域發展了泰雅課綱那這個泰雅課綱其實在很多的祈禱的支持跟指導之下那到我們這幾年也很多的祈禱陸續的過世了那這樣的一個"},{"start":4071.143,"end":4088.103,"text":"國教院的一個專業帶領之下我們發展還有知識中心我們發展出了九大領域那九大領域我們也發展出了它的一個核心素養那核心素養九大領域之下我們又發展出了一個學習重點包含學習內容跟學習表現"},{"start":4090.566,"end":4118.097,"text":"就是我相信各族都需要這樣的一個課程綱要作為實施民族教育的一個基本的一個呃引領吼那很可惜吼就是比較可惜就是現在知識體系中心以及我們課程泰爾族課程綱要這樣的一個經費就今年就呃就好像停止了那再來是我們再看一下原基法第三條呃第九條"},{"start":4130.373,"end":4149.941,"text":"那原基法第九條呢它其實最重要的就是它說政府應設計原住民族語言研究發展專責中心並辦理族語能力驗證制度積極推動原住民族語言發展那我覺得這幾年原民會跟原語會對我們的語言的一個付出跟這個帶領我覺得這個努力我們都看得到"},{"start":4152.122,"end":4170.252,"text":"那尤其在今天我看到我最敬重的這個尤哈尼前主委他的那句話我們要用功力的劍射向功力的父母這樣一個堅定的力量其實就帶領了我們族語認證這幾年的一個發展然後喚起很多人對族語的一個重視可是我也看到這幾天一個報導就是黃仁勳他就問了一個"},{"start":4175.574,"end":4188.719,"text":"我們台灣的小孩用閩南語問他結果問了很多次他都聽不懂你不會說台語喔這樣那他都聽不懂然後旁邊的家長就說可能你問他英語他會回答你"},{"start":4189.739,"end":4206.289,"text":"那這樣子的一個落差其實在我們原住民地區也是這樣你問孩子英語或者問他們一定有可能都會比族裔好那在這裡為什麼族裔會到這樣的一個狀況之下就是因為我們"},{"start":4207.33,"end":4225.823,"text":"缺乏了那個語言環境的一個經營那這個語言環境如果說只靠學校去營造其實是真的很辛苦因為我們知道這個文化產生的一個斷裂造成今天我們的族語也是這麼的薄弱因為語言它沒有辦法置外於生活環境置外於文化"},{"start":4226.423,"end":4247.792,"text":"所以我還是再一次就認為說我們的課綱各族的課綱都應該要被建立起來那我就想到說一週一節這樣的一個時數其實真的不夠那可以在民族學校做這樣的一個突破像我們各個民族學校在語言部分的一個琢磨其實就不只是一週一節"},{"start":4249.013,"end":4269.766,"text":"那我也想到說我們之前呢泰雅族的Denunan聯盟曾經到紐西蘭去訪問那我們去訪問的是一所一般的學校它並不是毛利人的學校可是在那所學校他們依他們地區的課綱他們一週五節毛利語最後呢我們再看到第十條"},{"start":4275.782,"end":4299.601,"text":"第十條呢他說政府應保存與維護原住民族文化並輔導文化產業及培育專業人才其實他這個我覺得他最核心的精神就是學校要納入原住民族歷史文化的課程而且要積極培育文化工作者與原住人才發展民族教育跟文化傳承的工作"},{"start":4300.382,"end":4318.141,"text":"那我覺得這個學校在現在的部落其實是一個很重要的一個文化傳承的一個場域那我依舊希望各族的課綱都能夠持續的發展明確的建立引領各族的原住民族教育持續前進"},{"start":4319.422,"end":4341.027,"text":"願我們所有我們有足夠的人才然後在老棒老少驕傲之後我們的師資能夠真的擔負起傳承文化這樣的一個重責大任那我始終相信原住民的自治應該從教育的解職去殖民化開始謝謝"},{"start":4343.922,"end":4369.29,"text":"非常謝謝我們的林軍校長從這個教育出發來談到看到原住民的自治我想的確是繼續呢我們請這個Yohani Sekakafut然後我們的這個前園民會的主委來發言結束了之後我們從那個陳張培倫老師結束之後我們休息一下好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4373.912,"end":4401.679,"text":"我是我敬愛的主席各位先進各位在原住民地區默默耕耘的我們的好朋友大家平安我只針對最後一個議題就是有關於原住民主基本法裡面的有關於我們的這個土地"},{"start":4403.254,"end":4410.116,"text":"海域還有我們傳統領域來表達我個人意見首先原基法從立法院通過而且實施了20多年我非常遺憾的就是"},{"start":4433.427,"end":4446.796,"text":"通過實施了20多年我們今天還要在立法院討論原住民族的土地問題這是我非常非常遺憾的一件事情我相信"},{"start":4459.588,"end":4485.087,"text":"包括我們的高軍委員以及在座的Wallis Belling委員他們都在二十幾年前就已經痛心疾首的在呼籲我們援助民主的特別是傳統土地的權利但是到今天二十幾年了"},{"start":4486.343,"end":4511.872,"text":"我不知道這個責任是立法院的責任還是行政部門的責任所以我在這個地方要特別呼籲作為一個負責任的國家跟政府不應該用這種態度來面對我們的國民台灣原住民族"},{"start":4513.084,"end":4533.439,"text":"這個是我首先要在今天的這個公聽會來表達不只是我個人也表達整個原住民族對於我們原住民族傳統土地到今天沒有任何作為來表達我們沉痛的抗議原住民族自治"},{"start":4541.343,"end":4553.69,"text":"它不是一個什麼國家的新的事物它也不是一個原住民族創新的建議原住民族自治是原住民族本來既有的自我管理模式"},{"start":4567.978,"end":4584.271,"text":"四百年前當還沒有任何一個一幫一組的外來政權到台灣的時候原住民族靠什麼完全就是靠每一個族群的自治就能夠在台灣存活數千年我真的非常痛心"},{"start":4597.301,"end":4622.878,"text":"居然還有人建議說我們要讓原住民族事辦自治這個是對台灣原住民一個很大很大的羞辱第二次世界大戰世界掀起了非殖民化浪潮我也真的是非常遺憾"},{"start":4624.164,"end":4644.534,"text":"在南太平洋這些原住民族的海島、島國都紛紛原住民獨立包括人口只有14000多的帛琉也獨立成一個新而獨立的國家"},{"start":4646.431,"end":4654.677,"text":"但是在南太平洋算是一個很大的島台灣原住民族的土地台灣卻是不幸的不幸的因為在這一塊原住民土地的統治者他們沒有回到他們的母國"},{"start":4671.269,"end":4693.516,"text":"所以才淪落到今天台灣原住民沒有辦法建立自己心而獨立的國家那麼我們今天我們自己很委屈的要求最卑微的要求原住民主自治結果到今天我們所謂的國家"},{"start":4702.585,"end":4703.966,"text":"你到底做了什麼所以我在這個地方呼籲原住民自治你不可以用事辦的方式來為做原住民自治的事務因為事辦原住民自治是對台灣原住民族主體性的羞辱"},{"start":4729.127,"end":4757.021,"text":"我盼望立法院跟行政單位積極用積極的態度來協助原住民族自治台灣原住民族絕對知道自治是什麼東西另外跟自治是連體因請我們立法院跟我們行政單位特別注意"},{"start":4758.717,"end":4784.775,"text":"原住民自治的連體因就是原住民族的傳統土地權你不要給原住民自治但是你他們的傳統土地權你不放手給他們你沒有劃定一個真正他們可以百分之百的權利決定的土地這個是"},{"start":4788.598,"end":4816.3,"text":"我在今天這個共聽會的發言謝謝非常謝謝Yohannes Krav我們的前主委以及援運前輩痛心疾首的在這邊希望我們立法院和行政部門加快腳步繼續我們請施建芬老師東華大學民族發展與社工學系教授長期以來非常關心跟原住民的運動走在一起的施教授歡迎謝謝您"},{"start":4819.042,"end":4848.202,"text":"高進委員各位先進已經差不多有10年左右沒有跟綠營的朋友這麼近的接觸過不過我們看到說研究法是2005年通過的也11年那當然10年以上記憶會模糊的不過要提醒其實我們所有的訴求應該要回到Yuhani委員提到就是1980年代的大家還記得東浦溫泉的挖墳事件"},{"start":4849.002,"end":4868.153,"text":"然後應該是1988嘉義這個火車站前面的無縫的銅像大家如果有印象的話那如果要再更早的話應該是說我們有一群朋友那個時候在台北念書的時候在長老教會的北區大專中心大家還記得嗎Michael Stanton 史邁克有沒有"},{"start":4869.714,"end":4884.622,"text":"很多人都在那邊出入過的當然現在是好像百法公理化當年不過我今天說有意義的話就是說當時那天2005年通過研究法的那三個關鍵人物今天有兩位在這邊"},{"start":4886.363,"end":4905.991,"text":"一個是負責跟我們這些白浪的立委就是我們的瓦斯主委然後負責整個社會的形象議題的就是我們高精委員然後另外一個是負責跟我們這些學者喝酒的就是我們蔡仲涵委員每兩個禮拜在一起"},{"start":4906.511,"end":4927.92,"text":"我還記得那天最特別的原因是因為這個所謂的民進黨沒有就是嘲笑也大嘛所以我們剛剛好到這次我們原住民的跨黨派的立委成為一個問政會裡面我們可以團結起來然後呢我記得那天最特別的是天時地利因為我們的柯總召的立委那天中感冒沒有來"},{"start":4928.956,"end":4957.907,"text":"然後呢這個我們的應該是我們的這個誰就問了一下就是說那是不是應該是問葉靖榮說這個可以嗎應該是老柯問葉靖榮是可以嗎葉靖榮跟他講沒問題OK那天過了你知道那天過了我如果印象沒有錯的話我們瓦斯委員那天就在那邊吃那個火鍋的時候就把手機丟到火鍋裡面OK太高興了怎麼有這樣的事情呢"},{"start":4959.656,"end":4976.352,"text":"但是接下來我們開始在規劃的時候就怎麼樣呢我印象中其實我還是要回頭再講說當時高精委還曾經還有印象嗎我們在文化大學的程序部那邊有講說我們如果要憲法專章等等我們要有哪些法條有沒有"},{"start":4976.892,"end":5001.56,"text":"我記得跟他講說如果有三條怎麼樣如果五條怎麼樣如果有一條怎麼樣其實最基本就是不外幾個嘛就是主權嘛土地跟自治這三條嘛那我們講說原運的最早的這三個訴求是什麼呢證明自治跟土地啊那在這個所謂的證明就是在這個李總統的時候就是高議事的時候高政治他已經往生了"},{"start":5001.82,"end":5030.923,"text":"好 例如說通過啦 那剩下兩個最努力這兩個啊那我們那個時候在努力在做的時候呢我記得當時通過了以後我們還有一個在行政院以外委員會以外在園民會有一個推動會那那個時候有一個土地主我是也是跟另外一個顏艾靜老師是這個召集人那你知道當時各個部會派代表來就好像出來好像輪流在大使一樣每次就跟你呼嚨一下然後正正在開會的時候他們的主管就來了然後說我很愛原住民"},{"start":5031.283,"end":5054.282,"text":"然後講一些東西我記得當時大家可能各個部會都不方便講實話的時候我在外面有一個文教基金會當董事長我請各個部會你們就跟我寫一個一千字嘛說到底如果真的阿扁要實施的時候你們會怎麼樣呢結果林務局最配合他甚至把那個地圖告訴我的哪些區塊可以通過的"},{"start":5056.332,"end":5077.694,"text":"會不會因為土地比較少,會比較斤斤計較,都很清楚了啊為什麼到後來沒有呢?有兩個原因我還記得當時阿扁總統因為事情被處理的時候後來因為那個時候好像是國務計畫會然後那個時候我們要寫文章的時候,法律學者都不願意寫"},{"start":5078.675,"end":5097.229,"text":"因為那個時候嘲笑也大,要大法官換人了,所以包括綠營的學者、法律學者沒有人敢讓他寫,所以我找了一群人寫包括黃國昌等等,五六個學者寫事後阿伯請我喝咖啡,他說是告訴我,我可以幫你倒三天什麼火"},{"start":5099.01,"end":5122.027,"text":"我說好吧 既然阿拉丁神燈問我了 我就說三個第一個就是我們原住民的自治 第二是客家語言 當作國家語言第三是外省人被歧視的反歧視法我覺得他有交代的 說抱歉 嘲笑也大你還有藉口對不對 但是我覺得這裡有一個很重要的就是有一些緣間"},{"start":5124.264,"end":5149.199,"text":"我們21條不是要經過同意權嗎然後裡面有一個劃設辦法那是行政法的部分我如果記得沒有錯的話就是一將然後呢跟我們的那個時候應該是政務委員吳什麼的宜蘭人我記得如果沒有錯的話叫誰後來跑去台中當了什麼吳哲成本來是因然後他改為得"},{"start":5151.636,"end":5169.703,"text":"因為他是行政命令所以我們沒有經過行政院的那個特別的那個原基法的委員會所以跳過我了那到了馬總統的時候反正馬總統國民黨他基本上是福利殖民主義嘛學澳洲的就是分一些東西"},{"start":5170.816,"end":5194.48,"text":"那我如果記得沒有錯的話,那你就是,你能怎麼樣呢?他講過一句,那個時候我記得沒有錯,他講說我們就事辦嘛,剛才Yuhani委員就講嘛哪有事辦的這個東西,這是我的權利啊事辦的意思是怎麼樣,是因為你們原住民不願意辦嘛所以呢,我們到時候就取消了,權利可以這個樣子嗎我就記得沒有錯,最早是達吾,因為達吾族很難整合"},{"start":5197.421,"end":5216.868,"text":"那接著呢 另外一個最積極是我們泰魯閣主剛證明的第三個就是我們講盧凱族啊我們盧凱族不是一個趙教授嗎怎麼還在赤絆呢太可笑了到了小英的時候呢2015的時候他也是當黨主席的"},{"start":5217.714,"end":5230.344,"text":"那時候我當我們的新進界的族群組召集人我們整合已經整合了幾個政見差不多10條左右然後我記得2015 8月的1號的時候就在台大"},{"start":5231.857,"end":5252.349,"text":"那個會議室然後之前他問我說我們有哪些然後我就跟他講我還記得太清楚了就是我跟他坐著然後後來他那個所謂的手提電腦不見了跑去考試驗病病的那個坐下來旁邊坐了旁邊站著三個人一個是張景生一個是林萬玉"},{"start":5255.475,"end":5274.665,"text":"另外是Yuhani,不是Yuhani,就是那個我們剛剛講的阿美族的那位然後我們就弄出來的九條政見就在這裡轉型正義、憲法專章、自治、土地這最基本的"},{"start":5275.626,"end":5290.398,"text":"好了他當選了以後他找姚文多來找我就在這個陳寅的辦公室說那我們總統今天要做改天下個禮拜要做一個怎麼樣的宣誓你認為要怎麼講我說"},{"start":5291.158,"end":5314.434,"text":"好吧九條很難至少有三條可以做吧第一個呢就是自治自治最簡單嘛就是找一塊有兩族就是盧凱族然後跟我們的太魯閣族甚至周族是可以最積極的啊不用事辦就去辦了那是土地完整的第二個土地的部分土地太好處理因為我們三元的土地是完整的嘛OK"},{"start":5315.695,"end":5330.969,"text":"第三個呢我們就講說不然的話我說不然的話那就國家公園歸我們原住民館可以嗎大部分的國家公園然後姚文東跟我講說你也知道我們的總統的個性嗎你看A加一半"},{"start":5331.75,"end":5359.744,"text":"甲乙丙 丙 可不可以A跟B我是好吧那國家公園就兩個嘛一個就是我們講的全部歸還除了我們像其他的白浪的部分第二個呢就是說不然我們的主管就讓我們原住民來做就可以吧然後那天我們說陳昱維我記得他準備了太多種飲料我們要喝交杯酒的遙遠到死都不敢喝你就知道為什麼他不喝 食言而肥"},{"start":5361.065,"end":5388.827,"text":"10月2回我不講第一次越來越長我不講但是呢他還得寸進尺他還在他的畫色辦法裡面把我們的傳統領域又跳出21條這個部分所以呢為什麼我們會在那邊抗爭8年在那邊很可惜賴清德上台以後並沒有改變啊為什麼他們又回台東去了我講了一大堆這些東西就是說"},{"start":5390.353,"end":5416.116,"text":"很多朋友當時我還記得那天我們在建國南路的時候一個人類學者挑戰我說施叉叉你又不是原住民你憑什麼談山道士我從來不會主動的是那天因為蔡委員特別叫我提一些東西我才會寫那些東西對不起我雖然我沒有原住民的身份我提醒我要跟大家分享一下我的外婆是屏東滿洲鄉的恆春阿妹"},{"start":5417.705,"end":5445.741,"text":"阿美族有恆春那邊有阿美族然後呢他的爸爸那邊是梅縣來的乃乃客家人但是呢還有更多的是四五個字我從我舅舅那邊拜託他去屏東拿那些舊的那些東西他的那邊都是四個字五個字的都是平埔族的好不好我還有一點點血統還有一點點心但是我們共同的我們不要把原住民當作一個消費的當你被國際"},{"start":5447.554,"end":5466.009,"text":"糟蹋的時候原住民拿到金牌的時候你就要召見然後以後都沒有了好 我講你知道我原民台也不會去了我也不會接受綠營訪問啦但謝謝今天有這個機會在我們Yuhani委員在我們這個Wadisbe委員的領導之下我們繼續來努力吧 謝謝"},{"start":5468.055,"end":5492.264,"text":"非常謝謝施教授 永遠的在野黨 永遠陪著他剛剛也說了 他其實也是我們原住民的家人那我想我們再繼續努力好 繼續我們請陳章培倫老師來跟大家分享一下他長期以來的努力然後還有什麼我們可以再繼續往前走的 謝謝"},{"start":5505.914,"end":5527.151,"text":"很榮幸應邀參加今天的這場公聽會就原計法施行20餘年來的幾個重要的卡關事項那麼向雨暉助攻提供愚見剛才我刻意跟施老師稍微調換了一下順序因為我覺得在他後面接續發言比較安全一點因為"},{"start":5531.334,"end":5551.587,"text":"比較生氣的一些話,謝謝前輩先幫我講了很多我就直接講我的發言稿好了從1990年代憲政改革的過程當中,我國的憲法終於納入了尊重原住民族多元文化以及尊重民族意願條款"},{"start":5552.788,"end":5578.325,"text":"到了2005年在當年民進黨首次執政的時候甚至還通過了堪稱我國原住民族權力總綱的原住民族基本法理論上看起來好像原住民族的美好日子已經來到了那三百多年來的這個歷史壓迫看起來就要過去了自主且平等的族群地位那麼這個理想看起來就在眼前"},{"start":5579.326,"end":5595.459,"text":"但是在原基法正式施行之後,雖然行政機關在歷次盤點落實成效的時候在形式上面看起來成果豐碩,比如說要制定哪一些法律、哪一些法規70%、80%、90%都列得很漂亮"},{"start":5600.603,"end":5625.613,"text":"但是我們族人心知肚明某些權力項目尤其是跟自治和土地有關的它的實質進展實際上非常的有限甚至在蔡英文總統於2016年這個民進黨又再度執政了當年蔡總統代表政府向原住民族道歉的時候呢連蔡總統都承認那麼這部法律就是原基法"},{"start":5626.093,"end":5651,"text":"並沒有獲得政府機關的普遍重視做得不夠快不夠全面不夠完善為此蔡總統代表政府向原住民族道歉而且當年甚至還在道歉文當中承諾要將原基法這個推法原住民族原發展法等法案送請那個立法院審議那目前如果按照"},{"start":5651.66,"end":5677.507,"text":"我們老師們請莫要打分數了看起來現在只有33分為什麼呢三個法案裡面只有一個過關再一次的我剛才有特別講的那個我常常講原基法在原基法的各項對於原住民族權利的承諾當中教育文化語言衛生福利這些面向通常比較容易看得到成效但是只要跟政治權利我講的是power"},{"start":5678.747,"end":5702.461,"text":"政治權利以及什麼呢?跟土地利益相關的太容易停滯不前了所以最後的結果就是儘管我們有舉世而言相當前進的法律但是族人總是覺得好像看得到卻是拿不到那為什麼會這個樣子呢?當然我最後會回到這一波有好幾位委員提出來的法案修正案的版本"},{"start":5703.402,"end":5715.992,"text":"但是在我提出具體的建議之前我認為必須要先指出來整個政府或者是政府機關的心態問題我要呼籲各個政黨各個機關甚至全體國民必須要重視"},{"start":5717.827,"end":5733.519,"text":"公部門 我這邊講的公部門是原民會之外的機關各個公部門對於原基法的內涵和它精神的理解普遍博為有限時常做出明顯曲解原基法本意的解釋"},{"start":5734.58,"end":5751.301,"text":"像是前幾年在行政院主導下將在重大開發案中應該取得部落同意的傳統領域這個概念排除了私有地我講坦白的話這個是近年重挫族人對於國家對於政府對於族族群信任感的一個關鍵事件"},{"start":5753.103,"end":5782.823,"text":"第二,今年政黨競爭看起來好像已經慢慢演變成一種形式某種形式的這種惡鬥甚至往年其實各個政黨都還能夠容許不同黨派的原民立委跨黨合作推動一些原住民族的政策和法案但是在這幾年我觀察到一個現象已經有開始出現了把原民政策或者是法案當作政黨競爭祭品的一個現象"},{"start":5783.944,"end":5804.665,"text":"比如原民綜合發展基金的撥補正義就是一例明明該基金是國家對於原住民族在歷史上所遭遇的一些傷害的這個重要補償的象徵結果現在卻似乎成了政黨懲罰原住民族的工具日令其萎縮嚴重影響各項政策的推動"},{"start":5805.906,"end":5825.874,"text":"這個又再度重挫原住民族對整個國家的信心,甚至令族人不為心寒造成相當多的恐慌感第三,無論國民大會或立法院代表了全體國民透過憲法、政修條文及原基法承諾了向原住民族承諾了那麼完整的原住民族權利列表"},{"start":5826.474,"end":5844.16,"text":"但是在遇到卡關的時候,無論是社會大眾或政府機關卻大部分不願意開誠布公的跟原住民族一起討論難處何在,是否有折衷方案難道我們原住民社會就不知道存在困難嗎?難道我們不願意去取得一個妥協嗎?不願意讓步嗎?"},{"start":5845.62,"end":5857.49,"text":"我們還是願意的但是整個主流社會甚至政府機關常常做一件事情他會刻意的曲解汙名化主人的訴求甚至還會刻意製造主流社會的這個恐慌"},{"start":5859.315,"end":5883.076,"text":"在呼籲了各界應該回過頭來反思面對原基法租正義的心態之後我最後就這次會議資料裡面若干的法案修正案提出如下建議第一無論開發案因應原基法第21條取得部落同意的傳統領域那麼看起來有委員決定修法把它設定為不限公私有土地"},{"start":5884.037,"end":5898.769,"text":"或者是有委員建議政府發展基金的撥補法治化我都非常的認同這個算是撥亂反正算是我們國家或政府重新取得原住民族社會信任的關鍵第二個民族自治的推動"},{"start":5900.563,"end":5917.19,"text":"現階段或許要跳出以往理想化甚至在政治現實上面相當困難的傳統的自治區模式尋求眼前可行的迂回策略我同意現有修正案當中的民主議會的這個概念"},{"start":5918.59,"end":5945.58,"text":"我甚至更進一步主張就現階段而言不妨架構以各族民族議會為樞紐並以部落公法人為基本單元的自治策略先讓族人在自己的事務上自己處理未來再看實際的發展等到原漢社會有相當的信任程度之後再往後面去推大家理想上的自治區的制度或許這樣子會比較務實"},{"start":5947.813,"end":5958.094,"text":"第三 這個所謂的民主議會和部落公法人的職權我要特別提醒一點不要到最後又變成只有原民會執掌事項"},{"start":5959.488,"end":5980.417,"text":"最好讓各級政府各機關習慣尊重原住民自主意願所以比如說山地鄉原民重點學校的校長的任命和學校的年度課程計畫是不是應該要取得學區內部落的同意又比如文件站是否就由公法人來執行那協會教會來協辦"},{"start":5983.098,"end":5999.071,"text":"又比如資源管理的共管機制的成員的組成,現在看起來是各機關單向的去找個別的族人可不可以未來共管機制的成員,原民方的代表其實應該要由部落來做推薦"},{"start":6000.673,"end":6027.73,"text":"所以我的意思就是說,自治制度這件事情我們真的要練習對於主流社會、對於政府的、園民會之外的其他機關,不太習慣這件事情在信任感還沒有完全建立之前,我們可以一項一項的把它拿出來,然後去實踐它等到信任的程度足夠了之後,我們再往後面去推我們最理想的,比如說我們很習慣去看美加的自治制度"},{"start":6028.25,"end":6046.047,"text":"或許這樣子是稍微比較務實之道也蠻期待這次的法案的修正能夠順利的往前推動然後我最後還是在提醒千萬不要又把這件事情當作一個政黨競爭或者惡鬥之下的犧牲品以上建議 謝謝各位"},{"start":6048.413,"end":6066.489,"text":"非常謝謝陳章培倫教授謝謝我們剛剛從施教授是要看到就是原基法這個立法的過程跟密心然後這條路走得很辛苦然後我們的陳章培倫教授就在法治"},{"start":6067.213,"end":6068.294,"text":"在場的好像還有幾位我們曾經都走上街頭過"},{"start":6086.974,"end":6114.699,"text":"我們以前走上街頭呢希望在法治外大聲呼籲我們的政府能夠聽到原住民的聲音也的確有一段時間聽到了所以在立法院我們幾位原住民的立法委員我們成立了原住民的政團在那個時候不分朝野我們大家團結在一起所以呢當時推動了不少的原住民的權益法案可是呢我們回首過程然後想想現在"},{"start":6116.789,"end":6142.443,"text":"我們是不是要在排除政黨之外然後團結援助民族的聲音因為我覺得我們援助民族的權益到現在就成如陳章培倫老師所說的好像是變成政黨鬥爭的犧牲品在立法院有一種無力感也就是非常多的版本我們的行政院並沒有提出版本"},{"start":6143.323,"end":6161.7,"text":"然後在立法院我們立法委員要推動的時候其實我們會看到原住民族也有不同的聲音出現我不知道為什麼不同的聲音會出現在我們現在我記得以前我們重視有不同的政黨的傾向但是我們的聲音總是一致的"},{"start":6162.521,"end":6183.97,"text":"那這是我一點點小小的心裡面的感觸所以今天為什麼要非常謝謝廖先祥召委能夠把這個時間空出來給我我們在內政委員會就對於原基法通過以後的這二十幾年來我們好好的在找回原住民為主體性的政策"},{"start":6184.89,"end":6209.696,"text":"以原住民為主體性的修法立法的方向希望在立法院我們六位立法委員甚至我們還有一些不分區的立法委員有一次我們一起再共同努力好我們先休息一下然後待會我們再繼續我們的公聽會然後休息當中大家可以喝咖啡我們謝謝園民會在經費非常拮据之下還會請我們喝咖啡謝謝"},{"start":6211.917,"end":6213.818,"text":"我們休息三分鐘好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":6240.386,"end":6258.773,"text":"哇,現在很厲害耶!"},{"start":6277.217,"end":6282.943,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":6296.036,"end":6310.292,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":6322.947,"end":6330.053,"text":"現在在準備我們投稿現在在準備我們投稿現在在準備我們投稿現在就是投這個卡嗎"},{"start":6348.028,"end":6348.048,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":6372.067,"end":6373.468,"text":"你還沒吃飯"},{"start":6380.384,"end":6404.684,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":6411.984,"end":6417.75,"text":"這間餐廳的主要主要主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":6436.418,"end":6443.044,"text":"對,你剛才用的那個畫面,這個畫面很大耶對,我想看,好,好"},{"start":6462.87,"end":6464.475,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6509.002,"end":6511.313,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6871.701,"end":6895.986,"text":"因為我們有非常多的專家學者待會可能會到別的地方去開會然後也有非常多的部落的我們的族人這個難得來到台北我想是不是我們先拍照一下好不好留下歷史性的鏡頭我們希望今天公聽會結束之後原住民的所有法案在法治內裡面都能夠"},{"start":6898.526,"end":6918.484,"text":"拋棄所有的政黨然後一致團結的為援助民族的權利繼續來奮鬥所以我們留下一張歷史性的照片好嗎謝謝我們請兩位副主委也一起然後前任兩位副主委還有我們的主委還有我們的陳昌副主委還有在場的專心協助我們一起拍照好嗎到前面來謝謝"},{"start":6992.483,"end":7003.292,"text":"好來我們現在繼續開會我們請都市阿美的桃園市的議員仙蓮議員仙蓮議員請問你幾屆啦仙蓮希望能夠連三連三屆所以呢也是在服務我們桃園桃園呢算是我們原住民人口最多的人數所以呢仙蓮議員您辛苦了來請謝謝"},{"start":7022.041,"end":7046.72,"text":"主席還有我們各部會的我們先進還有我們的前輩們大家早我是桃園市議員王仙蓮我是花蓮人後來因為結婚嫁到桃園那目前剛剛委員提我在桃園市升格之後我現在已經第二屆了那我跟"},{"start":7048.704,"end":7052.589,"text":"還沒升格前的時候是中壢市的名譽代表"},{"start":7053.564,"end":7065.354,"text":"那我現在先跟各位說明一下目前我們桃園市的原住民人口數已經達到91402人那我們園鄉有9649所以呢現在都會區的這個原住民城市我們都會區我們已經佔了89%的人口數"},{"start":7078.052,"end":7094.851,"text":"那原鄉現在是11%的人數所以在這個都會區裡面現在整個不管是新北桃園還是新竹這一帶我們桃園現在是原住民人數最多的地方我們現在僅次於花蓮縣"},{"start":7096.252,"end":7122.195,"text":"那花蓮縣的人數多我們兩三千人或許在這過兩三年我們也會超過花蓮縣所以現在原住民的一個形態來講大家都到都會區因為都會區好工作好居住好生活好讀書所以現在我們未來的原住民的部落漸漸都會到都會區了"},{"start":7124.096,"end":7142.532,"text":"所以我在這邊也想要在把我們桃園現在目前現況都市原住民的部分來跟我們各委員會來反映因為現在有關於都會區的都市地區原住民族發展條例"},{"start":7143.453,"end":7169.504,"text":"或者是原住民族教育法或者是原基法甚至原住民族自治法等等的相關的條例現在都不敷使用於現況因為人數的一個改變還有現在的一個文化的一個趨向我們現在希望我們能夠傳承我們原住民的文化等等的所以希望"},{"start":7170.084,"end":7196.82,"text":"在目前我們這個原住民族基本法的一個實務推動能夠來了解到能夠實際看見我們所有原住民族的一個生活型態那現在也很多人一直認為說我們想要捐獻什麼或者是我們要幫助什麼他們都說你們原鄉需要什麼需要什麼他們都不知道我們真正的人現在都在都會區"},{"start":7197.941,"end":7206.002,"text":"那我要跟大家說明一下現在超過萬人以上的我們桃園市我們有中壢區一萬一千多人"},{"start":7207.028,"end":7236.728,"text":"桃園區也超過1萬多人這個1萬多人在園鄉來講是很難的因為光是我們復興區我們現在園鄉的原住民人數9600多人所以在這個都會區真的是重中之重許多的一個教育一個資源或者是甚至我們自治的一個法條我們希望你們能夠更重視第一個我先反映一下有關居住的部分"},{"start":7237.509,"end":7249.981,"text":"目前我們原住民族的一個住宅補助24萬修繕補助15萬可是大家都知道現在在都會區的這個房子"},{"start":7254.209,"end":7281.266,"text":"不像過去兩三百萬就買得到幾乎一定都是千萬以上所以對於這樣的一個補助24萬或者是修繕的房子15萬也因為現在的成本還有人工的調漲這個房子的修繕或者是購屋的補助真的是沒有辦法真正的落實到"},{"start":7282.607,"end":7301.939,"text":"幫助原住民的居住的狀況還有再來就是租屋補助這部分呢我們現在桃園市也在慢慢的在興建社會住宅可是對於一些我們原住民居住的這個給我們的優先的條件的比率呢還是不足以"},{"start":7303.039,"end":7321.251,"text":"幫助我們所有很多在到都會區來工作的原住民所以這部分是不是在這個比例的部分的調漲或者是說我們現在300億的這個補貼政策這個可不可以再加碼補貼我們這個住宅租金的部分"},{"start":7322.071,"end":7350.891,"text":"因為我們很多都是花蓮台東屏東來的這個鄉親到台北到都會區就是為了要工作第一個我們沒有土地第二個我們原來就沒有房子所以我們一定是從租房子的這個方式來生活來工作所以在這樣的一個補貼當中呢真的也是對我們原住民去住社會住宅這個部分還是一個非常大的壓力"},{"start":7351.972,"end":7379.008,"text":"那我們也希望說 未來有機會我們也有自己的原住民的住宅這個社會住宅來協助讓我們在第一步在生活打拚的這些年輕人所以在這邊我要反映一下這個居住的問題再來我們住宅貸款利息的補貼也一直都沒有在更多的優惠給我們"},{"start":7380.029,"end":7407.867,"text":"原住民因為現在大家年輕人買不起房子那我們老人有一些原來也一直都在租房子到現在更是買不到房子所以這個部分在居住的部分不管是我們這個住宅政策部分我們也希望說在更多的一個立場為我們都市原住民來著想那第二個部分有關教育"},{"start":7410.087,"end":7427.107,"text":"我們現在都市的原住民的孩子也越來越多那我們現在一直在說我們有原住民有加分政策可是現在有很多的學校公立學校他們錄取原住民的這個比例呢還是一樣都是就2%"},{"start":7429.042,"end":7454.577,"text":"即使我們原住民加分到了這個分數我們也進不了我們想要去的學校因為學校有名額限制所以即使我加分我到了我即使我的分數到了我也到不了我們想要去爭取的學校所以這部分是不是在這個原住民教育法能夠也會對我們這個孩子們能夠帶來多多的考量"},{"start":7455.2,"end":7470.171,"text":"還有原住民專班現在我們都是原住民我們也沒辦法自己蓋我們自己的一個實驗中學現在我們實驗中學在我們復興區就是羅浮高中我們有高中部跟初中部"},{"start":7470.811,"end":7492.922,"text":"那現在呢都會覺得原住民學生更多那我們沒有原住民的學校可是我們能不能有我們原住民族的專班現在大學的部分雖然有可是我們現在國中高中我們也希望能夠有原住民專班那再來第三個現在我們的族語慢慢的沒落"},{"start":7493.522,"end":7512.938,"text":"因為我們的族裔老師真正的缺乏因為像我們的桃園的學生有兩萬多人我們的族裔老師才99位是所有的族群的老師共99位所以我們怎麼真正的去能夠傳承我們的這個文化那再來"},{"start":7515.459,"end":7531.816,"text":"可以繼續講再來就是有關這個重點學校的部分我們現在桃園也有國小也有十幾所重點學校就是超過一百人以上的原住民學生國中也有也將近有十所學校"},{"start":7532.637,"end":7554.655,"text":"甚至高中也都有重點學校可是在這個教育的經費真的是不足因為有很多的文化的推動還有學校對原住民學生的一些很多的經費上面都不足我們希望這個原住民族教育的部分對於都會區的學生能夠更多的來考量"},{"start":7555.416,"end":7581.188,"text":"那再來有關我們原住民自治法的部分當然我們剛剛前輩有講真的我們真的是在原鄉我們一定要努力來執行我們的自治法可是在都會區的部分呢我們現在像我們桃園現在有平地原住民4席的議員山地原住民今年也有4席的議員所以8位那我們新北市呢今年他們會有"},{"start":7582.148,"end":7599.506,"text":"四席的平地一員會有兩席的三地一員那我們新北等一下我們新竹市的他們有一席的三地原住民一席的平地原住民所以在這個很多的在都會區的一個一個服務或者是說權益或者是"},{"start":7601.027,"end":7620.678,"text":"一個去爭取下呢我們這些都會區是不是也有機會能夠有一個民族會議這樣的一個原民會也要有一些經費讓我們各個族群能夠有一些原住民的一個民族會議也讓我們這個語言發展也會有一些相關的經費來做一個一個編列"},{"start":7623.88,"end":7649.778,"text":"讓我們在這個部分都會區要更重視我們原住民能夠有一些事項一起來討論能夠把我們的文化傳承下去那第四個部分對於原住民的長照都會區的長輩也越來越多雖然現在我們整個全國的這個文件站有500多位可是都會區還是"},{"start":7652.921,"end":7680.077,"text":"對這樣跟原鄉比較起來我們都會區的文件站還是少之又少所以我們希望能夠在這個文件站的部分在執行上不管是你要透過協會透過教會有很多的問題在這個部分也希望說原民會跟那個衛福部能夠更重視文件站的一個執行還有一個對兆富園的一個一個一個所有的規劃"},{"start":7681.578,"end":7704.034,"text":"再來現在去年我們開始實施原建法在都會區我們現在一直反映如何推動我們原住民健康法在都會區照顧我們這些長輩還有甚至我們現在努力打拚的所有的年輕人孩子們那可是一直看不到中央有什麼任何的一個真正的一個計畫內容執行在都會區能夠讓我們真的"},{"start":7708.797,"end":7732.93,"text":"在照顧的部分能夠有更多的一個實質做法那以上我的報告 謝謝非常謝謝我們的都會區的先聯議員就對於實際在地方上都會區操作的時候所面臨到的一些困境跟建議事實上跟大家做一個報告一下113年的時候其實本席有提了兩個法一個叫做地方制度法"},{"start":7733.61,"end":7748.682,"text":"的修過那通過了之後呢尤其在都會區的三地原住民的議員的席次也增加所以呢這一次選舉的時候我們會多了更多的這個議員的席次對於在都會區的三地原住民的這個席次"},{"start":7749.162,"end":7756.168,"text":"那另外一個就是在這個都市援助民族發展條例其實在113年的時候我就已經提了也在我們內政委員會裡面已經來有總共有42條是我的版本的特色特色有什麼就是明確的把設計在原鄉外"},{"start":7767.757,"end":7782.411,"text":"還有設計在原鄉但是實際住在都市的族人都納入了保障範圍我們要求我們的政府要處理都市我們的族人的健康安居融資就學就養就業就醫還有社會的適應並且要強化族語文化居住執訓"},{"start":7788.696,"end":7802.889,"text":"涉宅反歧視單一窗口跟地方預算的責任然後把原住民基本法的第28條早已經就要求政府做的事情呢真正落實執行在我們的"},{"start":7803.73,"end":7828.42,"text":"制度上面所以剛剛先年議員所提到的這幾個部分其實在我們內政委員會已經條文已經有修已經念完了但是呢當時就因為行政院也就是園民會沒有提出版本所以呢當時我要求園民會要在這一兩年之內要提出版本如果我們行政院園民會提出版本之後我們就在內政委員會請我們的招委繼續來審查好不好"},{"start":7829.821,"end":7845.57,"text":"好謝謝剛剛就是就這個提醒的部分還有一些我們目前的進度跟大家報告那現在那個吳麗華委員也在我們的現場我們來歡迎她剛剛盧新英委員也有到現場非常謝謝好繼續我們請蘇偉恩沒有我們說兩個"},{"start":7854.577,"end":7870.387,"text":"蘇偉恩議員蘇偉恩議員也是我們非常年輕優秀的議員也是在桃園市的議員跟大家做個小報告蘇偉恩議員其實就是我們先年議員的兒子一個媽媽是做平地原住民的議員"},{"start":7871.508,"end":7874.969,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席還有在場所有立法院的各位長官以及在座的各位先進 大家午安"},{"start":7895.751,"end":7913.417,"text":"那我想今天非常感謝內政委員針對我們原基法真正實務上面的一個推動舉辦這樣子的一個公聽會那剛剛差一點這個王先聯王議員要把我們桃園所有的這個狀況都要講出來所以在他後面壓力非常的大"},{"start":7913.817,"end":7928.129,"text":"但是我今天就就我們桃園3D原住民的那也要跟各位介紹我是3D原住民的市議員那先稍微介紹一下桃園桃園市原住民人口從民國100年是有6萬1000多人"},{"start":7929.17,"end":7956.133,"text":"到現在115年的4月4月底結算原住民人口是9萬1千多人所以在這個幾年之間增加了超過3萬多人所以這個是在原住民縣市人口數成長是非常恐怖的一件事所以台灣已經不是少數原住民散居的一個城市而是全國很重要的尤其是在都會區裡是"},{"start":7958.074,"end":7967.162,"text":"這個都會原住民人口最多的一個城市那在山地原住民的部分110年這個年底有35635個人那在114年底統計山地原住民總共有41180人是在桃園的山地原住民"},{"start":7975.589,"end":7998.712,"text":"那在這四萬一千多人裡面呢除了我們原鄉的復興區有九千六百多人那接近三萬多的人其實山地原住民是生活在我們桃園的這個都會區所以這組數字的重點是桃園山地原住民即使涉及在桃園但是他們生活的一個型態已經漸漸的是在進入在我們的都會區裡面"},{"start":7999.733,"end":8022.47,"text":"所以我想從山地原住民的角度來看我們都會原住民的政策不能只理解為平地原住民的政策那這代表大量的山地原住民因為就業因為就學婚姻家庭照顧或甚至是生活的成本因素那長期需要居住在我們桃園的都會區生活"},{"start":8022.91,"end":8037.749,"text":"但是制度只永遠把他們想成是在屬於原鄉地區的族人所以問題點就在這邊山地原住民進入都會區之後並不代表文化的需求會消失那我想不管是從花東"},{"start":8038.57,"end":8063.907,"text":"或甚至是這個南部上來到桃園的這個部分其實文化的需求也是非常的重要那也不代表政府的保障可以中斷他們的一個權利所以相反的他們同時面對兩種壓力一種是在都會區這個租屋、就業等等的一些壓力另外一個就是要維持部落的一些文化傳承像是族譽或甚至是碎石記憶等等的連結"},{"start":8064.807,"end":8080.161,"text":"所以如果政策只看戶籍那不看他實際居住的這個地方那只看一般的福利不看民族的一個權利那我們山地原住民就會卡在原鄉跟都會區制度當中的這個縫隙裡面非常的可憐"},{"start":8080.922,"end":8091.609,"text":"那在桃園原住民主要就業的類別有三個部分是我們的前三名第一個就是在製造業在113年統計有25%的人是從事製造業那20%是從事營造工程業再來11%是我們運輸倉儲業所以這三個是我們桃園原住民人口比較從事的主要的業別的部分在這裡"},{"start":8110.14,"end":8132.734,"text":"那這代表桃園主要是原住民這個結構高度集中在製造、營建還有運輸倉儲那這個也跟我們桃園的這個生活圈息息相關因為我們桃園工業區現在開始在發展像是我們有航空城或甚至是這個機場的建設所以其實製造業和相關等等的都是我們高度相關的一個這個行業的一個類別"},{"start":8135.336,"end":8163.565,"text":"所以桃園的這個部分常常會伴隨著工時長職業安全外派發包那薪資等等的那我想這個也是我們在桃園服務族人常常會碰到的一些問題比如說像是勞健保相關等等的或甚至薪資拖欠的一個問題所以對於山地原住民來講都會原住民的政策那需要把這些部分也能夠來一起納入在我們這樣子這個今天來討論的一個議題內"},{"start":8165.265,"end":8171.709,"text":"所以我想我在這邊也常常跟高清委員這邊有聊到委員這邊的這個都議員的條例剛剛委員也特別報告過希望我們能夠讓這個涉及在園鄉但是實際居住在我們園鄉之外的一個族人能夠有一樣的一個制度不然的話我們在這個都會區的原住民都是只有"},{"start":8189.201,"end":8204.788,"text":"這個不會受到很多的政策的一個保障所以我想離開原鄉就等同於失去權利這個是我們在服務族人當中很深痛的一個感悟所以希望政府在這邊不要因為族人住在都會區就失去了保障"},{"start":8205.228,"end":8231.214,"text":"那每當族人常常遇到爭議常常我們桃園市政府也不知道要用什麼方式不知道要用什麼樣子的條例來去處理那也常常有很多的都會區的族人跟我們抱怨我們很多的資源都送到原鄉但是我們真正生活在都會區的原住民卻沒有很多實質的保障所以政府也常常利用個案或甚至是協調來去處理但是沒有真正的建議制度所以現在"},{"start":8231.934,"end":8253.264,"text":"原住民面對的問題不只有在原鄉都會原住民的一些居住、就業、教育、族語傳承還有我們長期的一些政府保障原民的這個財政的一個部分都是需要法律上面的一個跟進那以上是本人的這個請見那再一次謝謝大家那也祝福大家 謝謝"},{"start":8260.219,"end":8281.976,"text":"好 接下來我們請這個桃園市立羅浮高軍中等學校的校長馬紹比利那馬紹比利這個學校羅浮他是我們民族完全中學對不對然後呢很重要的是我們非常謝謝鄭文燦前市長是用這個市府的預算把它建構完成的也謝謝兩位議員的爭取我們請校長"},{"start":8286.787,"end":8290.93,"text":"各位立法院長官,各位教育夥伴,各位在場的先進,大家晚安大家好,我是羅浮高中校長馬紹比令"},{"start":8309.341,"end":8332.238,"text":"那今天就針對這個提綱3也會及一些在中等學校不管是國中高中都會去或原鄉的幾位這夥伴的這個意見來跟各位來做分享那其實近年來最後一步的這個我們的原住民教育法及相關執法是逐步的完善了也讓我們的原住民族教育"},{"start":8333.279,"end":8356.352,"text":"從過去的補救性教育逐漸邁向到文化主體性教育自主性與民族永續發展的新階段當然也讓全民原教納入課綱的精神也再次讓原住民教育從廣泛的接觸走向精準的聚焦從單點的學習邁向系統的建構更從知識學習傳化成能力實踐"},{"start":8359.494,"end":8376.769,"text":"那然而在從這個原鄉學校及原住民重點學校的實務推動經驗來觀察還是有一些制度面還有執行的執行面的課題要進一步的來精進所以今天提出了幾項的建議那第一個部分就是"},{"start":8379.511,"end":8399.485,"text":"原價法在108年有做修訂之後那針對這個原住民重點學校認定的機制我想需要做一番的檢視跟檢討來回應教育現場的實際需求為什麼會這麼提那其實羅浮高中在過去102年設校的時候我們常自嘲"},{"start":8400.225,"end":8424.835,"text":"在這個這20年元宇蓬勃的時代盧浮高中在社校在160年這個受到反元運的狀況我們在160年想要在大園區建立高中但是被丟雞蛋那現在呢在100過了10年之後在112年想要在這個原住民重點學校開設原住民教師圈竟然被這個多數暴力舉手投票"},{"start":8425.615,"end":8447.153,"text":"否決說我們要開原住民教師缺的這個建議那為什麼會這樣子我想從這個原住民中等學校的認定機制可以來做一個全面的檢視那在108年修改一個相關條例的時候我們原住民的教師高中以下原本是35%但是在108年我們的國中高中從35%降到5%"},{"start":8453.098,"end":8476.827,"text":"那加了5%那就產生一個狀況原本原住民教師在國高中就已經相當稀少了那在體制內的政策調整之後我們讓原住民教師更無法在這個體制的國高中大力呼吸喔那所以我剛提到了是不是可以來重新的檢視原住民重點學校的認定機制那當然有一些建議喔"},{"start":8477.447,"end":8496.858,"text":"我們是不是可以從過去單一學生的單一比例制調整為學生比例級這個教育任務雙軌的認定制度來做調整尤其在原鄉的學校我想我們學校不會是這個single case它反而是一個universal一個通案包含南投的仁愛高農屏東的來義高中"},{"start":8499.259,"end":8523.134,"text":"台東的蘭嶼甚至是我們宜蘭南澳中學在都會區桃園市的原住民重點學校其實在高中國中來講總共有三十幾間可是因為政策的使然然後讓了都會區的校長反而心驚膽跳所以為什麼心驚膽跳他們為了這個比例上來講他們招得到原住民教師但是他是所謂的"},{"start":8523.994,"end":8540.357,"text":"學院上的原住民教師那這樣子的政策上除了在原鄉遇到困難在都會區他也受到教育的優先所以這是第一個建議那第二個建議就是說在這個一個學校我想學校要穩定教師他一定要穩定"},{"start":8541.378,"end":8560.745,"text":"所以在這裡我也提到就是第二項就是強化民族教育的師資培育不管是民族教育的師資或是原民級一般教師的師資的培育還有這個文化教師的專業認證制度我想這可以重新再思考來建立的那為什麼會提到這部分剛有提到的就是說"},{"start":8562.607,"end":8575.033,"text":"國高中過去從35到5%其實我知道在尤其在華東地區還有技職學校那他們在招援教師是相當困難的那經過這個分析之後"},{"start":8576.592,"end":8605.812,"text":"中等學校的原住民教師大約都落在這個國英數的坑戶是最多的那計時他是相當的少甚至是微乎其微所以我能夠體諒在這個一花東一些計時學校這些校長的這個提出在過去提出的建議但是相對的如果要把這個比例往下調倒不如碩本追原的我們增加師資培育的更大的量能這是一件事情"},{"start":8606.472,"end":8633.083,"text":"那在偏鄉其實很多的代理教師他都很有心來投入這個教育的服務那是不是可以優先的讓這些在原鄉的代理教師來優先有機會回到教育現場然後讓這個中美學校來做推薦製讓他有教師證的賠利第二個就是文化教師的專業認證制度那學校在課程上的聘用來講很多都是照中點"},{"start":8634.243,"end":8646.51,"text":"我們的文化教師說實在的每一個都是背負著各族群的文化的精髓在身上這些族群的長老跟智者他們就像是蠟燭在兩頭燒第一個要保存文化第二件事情"},{"start":8651.132,"end":8662.798,"text":"要這個在文化視為跟這個主流的這大社會上來講他們是第一個年紀也大啊第二個是他們要持續的保留可是相對的回到學校服務一節課只有400塊800塊對於他的交通費來講真的"},{"start":8666.9,"end":8688.395,"text":"反而是真的是相當的困難那常常也都是我們這些像主任願意自掏腰包甚至我常常到高鐵來接送這些這些這個文化志者那為什麼我要提說專業認證制度因為我每次在跟縣市教育局提說我們能不能有另外一套制度讓文化的志者跟齊老"},{"start":8688.855,"end":8716.884,"text":"可以有更好的這個所謂他的文化上的feedback跟回饋不能一昧的就消費他對文化的熱情跟執著那所以這個部分現在就覺得因為中央也沒有這個法條啊中央針對文化教師也沒有說他有文化教師證所以我要給他多少的這個待遇所以我在這裡特別在第二項提到強化民族跟一般的師資以及文化教師專業的認證制度那第三個"},{"start":8718.164,"end":8738.857,"text":"我剛提到了第一件事情就是教師的穩定第二個就是教師的專業培力第三個當然就是回到這個課程跟課綱那我們常在教育現場講這個課程是文化課程是跑道課程是生活可是當我們有了老師之後那說實在的部落的長者常講"},{"start":8739.858,"end":8766.683,"text":"越有現在新一代的這個孩子越有能力的人他們離部落好像越來越遠這件事情那當他拿到了教師證考上了之後他反而沒有他的文化基本素養所以在剛剛提到的教師專業的培立當然除了文化的敏感度文化的培立之外更要有這個課綱跟課程的建立那所以這裡也建議說是不是能夠"},{"start":8767.803,"end":8789.721,"text":"在這個中央能夠設置民族教育的課綱推動第一個是數位資訊一直以來是原鄉偏鄉教育的困難跟有限那所以也希望能夠建立民族教育的數位資源平台那在過去有幾位這個泰雅族的夥伴我們在前幾年推動了泰雅課綱的這個"},{"start":8793.449,"end":8815.834,"text":"算是前導的計畫那其實我們也更希望能夠來推動各族群的教育課綱也全面建構各族群該有的課程及對這個校園的師資培立課程的想像那最後這裡呢我想原住民教育的核心它是保障原住民族的受教權"},{"start":8817.234,"end":8836.241,"text":"那更希望透过这个教育实践来传承文化语言复正以及民族的永续发展未来呢若是能够从重点学校的认定制度优化民族教育课程课纲的强化师资稳定的这个强化以及"},{"start":8837.421,"end":8852.816,"text":"最近大家常常口號在講全民原教的持續推動我想這幾項的持續精進將有助於建立兼具文化主體性教育公平性以及國家多元價值的教育體系以上是馬紹的建議"},{"start":8855.888,"end":8872.58,"text":"非常謝謝我們馬沙比林校長的確是跟大家再簡單說明一下其實在潘文忠部長前部長教育部前部長的這個支持之下我還記得九年前我們原住民族的教育的夥伴們"},{"start":8873.36,"end":8898.141,"text":"我們大家攜手共同突破了非常多的法令尤其我們從原教實驗三法裡面突破了一個原住民族的教育當時就是我們原民處原民會的原教處的處長陳坤生處長我們一起突破了非常多的難關而且在教育部裡面也多了非常多的經費成立了我們的民族的實驗學校"},{"start":8899.262,"end":8921.722,"text":"那校長們一致認定其實呢在賴總統所謂雙軌教育制度之下我們能夠再伸出一條另外的不同的路可是一直到現在這件事情好像一直沒有完成那包括今天我們在現場也有來自於教育部的同仁但是我可能需要請待會教育部的因為來了非常多關心教育的"},{"start":8922.202,"end":8939.73,"text":"今天其實在公聽會實質參與的人其實沒有邀請那麼多但是在我們線上在觀看今天公聽會的族人朋友們其實是不少的所以大家對於教育的問題我們希望待會教育部也能夠做說明尤其今天"},{"start":8940.47,"end":8969.67,"text":"國教院的周惠敏主任也來到現場我是希望待會你們兩個教育部還有陳昆稱處長你們準備一下我們針對原民的未來的教育尤其是民主教育還有剛剛說到的都會區裡面的教育的問題能夠簡短的提出你們的想法還有要解決的問題還有未來的規劃好不好謝謝繼續我要邀請的是在地法院跟我一起我們共同通過了非常多的法令"},{"start":8970.79,"end":8971.791,"text":"首先感謝受邀參加這個公聽會"},{"start":8999.57,"end":9022.48,"text":"那這個工庭會的題目叫做目前的現況跟精進的工庭會那過去的現況剛剛施老師已經講出了很多的一些歷程密信但是有些機密的可能沒辦法講出來那當時事實上在原住民的議題裡頭我們一直認為"},{"start":9024.341,"end":9051.043,"text":"言之民主是在這個國家裡面的國中國的形態應該要存在國中國的形態就是除了國防外交之外我們是一個獨立自主的內部治理的一個民主那如果當時成立的話施老師應該是做我們的國師了那當然今天的工地會我就想說現況是什麼我就講一個結論"},{"start":9053.254,"end":9062.841,"text":"事實上研究法裡面有法律授權應該要制定的法律並沒有做到20多年來沒有做到大概誰失職誰要追究這個"},{"start":9065.959,"end":9082.639,"text":"有關這個法律授權的部分,比如說第二條之一這個好幾年前公法人的設置,應該要設置那目前要試辦,法律授權到底是不是可以試辦嗎?法律授權就是要制定,要設置那公法人很重要"},{"start":9084.358,"end":9099.491,"text":"部落的自然自然的權利跟公事務的內部治理我認為這是一個典型的最原始原住民族的一個自治的一個模型那如果部落公法人成立就有部落議會嘛"},{"start":9100.552,"end":9118.249,"text":"部落議會以後可以像賽特克族有八個部落部落公法人部落議會成立以後我們就可以有民主議會的成立那民主議會成立之後有各個民主成立聯合民主議會這樣的形態體制外內我們就有一個"},{"start":9119.631,"end":9144.54,"text":"機制要跟我們的政府做一個對話我想這是一個自治法還沒制定以前部落工法人應該就要率先成立不要事半第二十條裡面大家常常忘記的就是要設置授權法律授權授制土地調查及處理委員會這個根本沒有再去做思考"},{"start":9145.407,"end":9173.409,"text":"那土地調查處理委員會我們有土審會土審會是針對地方政府的原保地的相關協議審查土地糾紛或者無償取得的收費權分配收費的審查是地方政府是原住民保留地但是我們所講的土地調查委員會呢應該是在以中央層級的傳統領域台塘等國有土地涉及到中央器官的權責以"},{"start":9176.216,"end":9195.755,"text":"這個不是地方政務的權責這個20條設置原住民土地調查處理委員會非常重要我們可以把原住民傳統旅域跟涉及過去我們流失的土地呢再經過這樣的機制那應該原民會有一個會外的一個組織就是調查委員會這個組織這個是法律授權但是並沒有制定"},{"start":9202.096,"end":9214.184,"text":"然後第三十四條的規定三十四條規定就是各政府部會主管機關因為原計劃通過了有抵觸的部分"},{"start":9216.577,"end":9232.253,"text":"主管機關部會應進行修正,制定會廢止,三年內要制定會廢止,大概這個大家都很不在意,沒有去做處理還有在後來又定海上立法院也通過三十四條第二項"},{"start":9233.308,"end":9248.008,"text":"第二項所謂講的說各部位還沒做修法完成之前各部位應該會同中央原住民主管機關依照原計劃的精神進行解釋和適用"},{"start":9248.568,"end":9269.129,"text":"相關的法例要符合適用在延期法這個都好像也沒有完善的去處理這個就是法例受檢沒有處理那誰的錯這個等一下會另外一個結論當然法例受檢是沒有制定的比如土地海運法"},{"start":9270.99,"end":9298.581,"text":"自治法但是土地海運法事實上有在做一些好像到行政院都還沒有這一陣子都沒有到行政院去做提出這個法案但是事實上土地海運法呢事實上人民會已經有設想到說原住民保留地管理條例提升為法律的位階如果把原住民保留地管理辦法提升法律位階確實是一個好事"},{"start":9299.901,"end":9323.387,"text":"應該他的民政要變成說原住民保留地恢復管理利用條例不管是恢復就是有一些涉及到傳統領域或者原住民土地如何恢復在裡面做規定那他的地用地權跟重劃的部分也在那邊規定所以大部分原住民的土地權利可能就在這個新的法律制定之下就會有一些延滿"},{"start":9324.447,"end":9348.805,"text":"那最後還可以再制定土地海域法傳統的土地海域法那那個怎麼去會問呢另外再制定所以這個事實上雖然法律有在說這個但是事實上都沒有去做處理那這個是法律授權的但是沒有進行處理的那事實上"},{"start":9354.076,"end":9363.461,"text":"我自己覺得如果在這些那麼多的法律授權並沒有制定或者相關部會的部分的業績做詮釋應該誰要做權責即做推動就是原計劃推動委員會"},{"start":9370.666,"end":9397.226,"text":"研計法推動委員會它只是一個會議形式這個應該立法院這裡應該要把它修正為研計法推動委員會設置的一個辦法那設置的辦法就是這些推動委員會裡面要有工作小組那相關法律沒有制定的相關要做協商的工作小組去做處理去跟部會處理跟民間協調甚至這些擬定之後"},{"start":9398.748,"end":9426.89,"text":"就促進立法院或者是行政單位提出這個相關法案我認為推動委員會不是一個就是一個花瓶在那邊他應該是實際去從事怎麼去推動20年來那麼多的法律制定並沒有處理好我認為推動委員會也有他的責任這是我所講的失職的部分那另外就是相關這個部分剛剛我們主席有提到中國發展基金"},{"start":9427.466,"end":9428.547,"text":"中國發展基金是針對原住民的相關經濟發展的部分"},{"start":9446.789,"end":9469.863,"text":"那這個非常好的一個現象是事實上在原住民部落裡頭跟金融有關的組織大家可能不會注意到有個叫除息互助社除息互助社在金融的一個周轉跟運用裡頭大概在原住民大概十分之一的人口那非常高的人口有接觸"},{"start":9470.768,"end":9478.501,"text":"那如果中國發展基金銜接到部落的金融這個機制的話我認為會很改善這個部落的一個"},{"start":9482.094,"end":9506.944,"text":"還有民主教育的問題,我認為民主教育事實上事實上我們現在目前經營大學在推動高教的民主教育那高教學生碩士班他在部落教室,我們部落七老來教學然後他也可以受證為真正的教育部所設定的一個碩士學位"},{"start":9507.544,"end":9535.178,"text":"那事實上如果延民會能夠加碼讓我們的這些收班學生能夠有一個教育學生能夠回到部落去做教學等等或相關的學校事實上這個部分事實上我們的民主教育是延民會要去做規劃當然我們現在只設定在小學或者其他的一個部門但事實上高教的部分如果沒有去做進行的話"},{"start":9535.759,"end":9543.999,"text":"相關的所謂的知識體系的應用教材的規劃甚至課綱的規劃大概是在比較"},{"start":9545.598,"end":9570.067,"text":"做研究專題這個部分來設置事實上我們認為民主大學如果要有民主大學的話一定要先有這些掀起的一些規劃我認為我們在經濟大學設置這個我認為大家可以相關去做參考那以上所做的一個補充謝謝非常謝謝Royce Vading全組委"},{"start":9571.437,"end":9590.729,"text":"雖然離開了立法院 離開了行政體系瓦斯貝利前輩還是對於原住民的失誤非常深入了解也提出了你幾個的建議原基法在既有的法條之下沒有落實誰該負責任剛剛點出了一個原基法推動委員會的確是 我們希望原基法推動委員會實質的成員能夠繼續"},{"start":9593.331,"end":9618.481,"text":"好 接著我們再請這個吳立華委員吳立華委員也是來自教育界的所以想必今天對於教育上面他有一些不同的看法跟建議謝謝剛剛那個Y.S.佩玲前輩他有提到中發基金的部分待會我們也希望行政院組織總署能夠對於這個部分還有園民會的組織處能夠提出一些的回應好嗎 謝謝請吳立華委員"},{"start":9625.743,"end":9641.984,"text":"謝謝主席今天看到這麼多的來自原鄉的意見領袖一同參與原住民族基本法實務推動現況的精進公聽會我覺得非常的高興首先要特別感謝內政委員會"},{"start":9642.845,"end":9664.06,"text":"廖先祥 趙偉特別安排這場公聽會那我相信這也是高金素美委員 鄭天才委員等人一同促成關心的那我在這邊非常的高興那我個人呢其實面對這個八分鐘我有一點不知道要從何講起因為有訂定四個"},{"start":9665.202,"end":9666.724,"text":"因為我是2020年進入到立法院"},{"start":9682.822,"end":9701.668,"text":"我個人呢也是把我們原基法的推動視為一個很重要很重要我的任務那我要跟各位講就是我到了立法院以來其實我第一個面對的是什麼呢槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的修法"},{"start":9702.628,"end":9720.597,"text":"當時因為治安敗壞的問題所以警政署要推動這個修法那我當時 這個就是我第一個參與的一個協商那我非常的記得 那個時候因為很多的民團組織特別提到過去的獵槍除罪化還不夠乾淨因為還有所謂的零組件的除罪化"},{"start":9726.9,"end":9740.267,"text":"那當時呢我記得總召他們聽不太懂因為他們就覺得說獵槍就已經除罪化那為什麼還要再一次除罪化所以呢我特別的去蒐集了這十年間因為違反槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例而入獄的人數結果呢拿出來平均一年有五十人"},{"start":9749.972,"end":9754.417,"text":"所以當時令總召還有很多的立法委員覺得非常的錯愕所以就參與這樣的一個開啟那也完成獵槍專法的訂定為什麼我要特別講這個其實在我們的原基法2005年訂定之後"},{"start":9769.272,"end":9783.108,"text":"以這個原基法第19條來講有很多是屬於原住民的豁免包括打獵包括土石採取包括植物的採集等等還有水資源的運用"},{"start":9784.189,"end":9812.401,"text":"可是呢我們必須要去面對很多很多的法令的一個鬆綁所以原本是訂定在39條說主管機關要在本法施行後三年內依本法之原則修正制定或廢止那麼沒有辦法制定修正或廢止之前要中央援助民主主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關依本法的原則要去做解釋"},{"start":9814.082,"end":9826.497,"text":"所以這個部分其實在2005年的時候已經訂定得很清楚但是我們發現很困難但是很困難也是要努力那我舉個例子來講喔像是我跟洪森漢委員那時候就在處理礦業法"},{"start":9829.881,"end":9850.212,"text":"希望能夠就原基法這樣的一個第19條的精神去做處理所以後來也修正通過所以就有了礦石的一個採取法免金申請那上個禮拜我也做了一件事就是土石採取法因為我們原住民在過去"},{"start":9851.332,"end":9865.881,"text":"我們對於這些石板也好河川的砂石也好我們會變成要定量而且要做申請字所以呢也已經處理完畢已經送出委員會很快就會三讀我要提到的是說"},{"start":9866.821,"end":9883.596,"text":"其實這一些散落在我們很多的法裡面的沒有去福音原基法精神的都是我們立法委員們在這邊要很努力去推動的那包括像是國體法裡面各位可能不知道中華民國來到台灣76年"},{"start":9886.298,"end":9904.291,"text":"竟然我們的國民體育法裡面的民俗體育連平地人的氣磚頭舞龍舞獅都算是體育可是我們原住民的摔角啊射箭啊等等卻一直沒有被列入所以呢我也完成修法已經通過"},{"start":9905.171,"end":9918.851,"text":"那我其實只是要去舉這些例子那現在大家如果說很關心部落的自治公法原住民族自治部落公法人那我自己的努力的過程我是看到說因為在這個2005年"},{"start":9921.835,"end":9947.874,"text":"原基法有了之後2015年有修正然後確立了部落公法人的一個法源依據可是通過2016 2017的兩次預告我們一直都沒有看到進展那我在新的卓院長上任之後也就是前年的6月我特別有把這個當作是我總質詢的議題我告訴院長為什麼我們要推動部落公法人因為"},{"start":9948.835,"end":9972.616,"text":"光是我們的蘭嶼的核廢料補償金或雅尼的回饋金我們到底要存在哪裡存到協會嗎協會可以代表部落嗎存到相公所嗎相公所可以代表部落嗎成立基金會嗎基金會可以代表部落嗎如果我們有一個狩獵自主團體我們要跟誰簽約我們可以直接簽約嗎如果我們要辦理部落的事業"},{"start":9973.837,"end":9994.135,"text":"我們誰來辦理結果變成文件站教保中心等等我們只能夠透過這些協會來辦理但是這個可以代表部落嗎那所以我在這個地方其實我也希望同步的來修正諮商同意辦法我們舉太多的例子像是宜蘭南澳前陣子的這個倫比村的這個"},{"start":9997.711,"end":10014.97,"text":"好像是罷免村長那他的爭議就在於關西部落造成很多的糾紛人數比較多但是呢他認為程旭有爭議他也只能一票那輸給有兩票的人數比較少的部落又或者是說我們的北橫"},{"start":10016.191,"end":10031.576,"text":"牽涉到60個部門我們立法委員在立法院很多時間所以在這個地方我特別就是我把這一部分講完謝謝主席那我想這個部分我特別要講的就是確立公法人制度"},{"start":10032.576,"end":10055.851,"text":"精進諮商同意的制度然後釐清部落的領域在哪裡也就是剛才瓦利斯貝林委員他所講的那些然後最後我們的目標是原住民族的經濟基礎打好了之後才有所謂的一個原住民族自治所以在這個當中我覺得我們目前沒有完成的原住民族自治法或原住民族學校法"},{"start":10056.491,"end":10082.623,"text":"我覺得都是很多因為共識不足所以我不斷的希望原民會應該要來積極的辦理公聽會來蒐整全國各地原住民族人的意見那我們才有辦法找到共同的方向共同的努力所以在原住民族教育的部分我也在這個地方做了組決議也做出了一個法案的一個版本"},{"start":10083.303,"end":10097.052,"text":"因為我們在103年把人數1.2調到1.9那現在我們的人口已經來到2.7那我們到底應該怎麼辦我已經算出來了也做出主決議了如果我們要增加到3%"},{"start":10098.453,"end":10111.236,"text":"我們要把現在的六十七億要增加到七十九億也就是說按照教育部跟園民會共同分擔七比三的方式教育部的經費要增加八億園民會的部分要增加四億那這八億跟四億要拿來做什麼我覺得要關心我們的大專生主宰學齡那這個部分就是我希望"},{"start":10124.74,"end":10152.422,"text":"我們已經開始要求教育部原民會要做出降低什麼成本增加什麼收入然後我們原住民的公務人才的培育原住民的關鍵人才高等師資的培育然後去嫁接我們的原住民族學校我想很多的部分呢我們都會持續的來跟所有的立委包括原住民立委共同的來前進那希望不會辜負我們前面的這些立法委員的努力"},{"start":10153.102,"end":10155.923,"text":"謝謝大家 非常謝謝吳麗華委員因為盧瀉英委員他在別的委員會也有質詢所以他的時間很急迫所以我想請問一下這個陳理事長我們先讓盧瀉英這個"},{"start":10171.108,"end":10175.951,"text":"謝謝主席今天真的很高興能夠排到這個公聽會我們大家都看到我們盧凱族真的是很像遙遙領先的看到這第一個發言人是我們杜正吉校長我們的鄉長我覺得"},{"start":10198.379,"end":10226.273,"text":"我一直在旁邊看我覺得原住民真的要跟盧凱族跟排灣族學習像民主議會已經走到很前面那我們今天講到原計法它當然不是成果的展示表而是對政府的問責表它要問的是原住民族最核心的權利有沒有真正落實族人在土地 自治 教育 文化都市生活 公共建設以及資源分配上有沒有真正感受到制度的改變所以本席先要問行政院跟原民會說原民會順便報告說"},{"start":10228.596,"end":10251.39,"text":"我們原住民主基本法推動列管的90項法案多數已經逐步制定或修正完成目前只剩原住民主自治法跟原住民主土地局海法仍在研議但是本市要問這兩部法難道不是原基法最核心的兩部法嗎所以對主人而言最核心的權利不能永遠放在最困難最敏感也是最容易被延後的位置"},{"start":10251.87,"end":10276.111,"text":"所以行政院可以具體回應原住民主自治法現在是卡在哪裡我們的土地海域法是還要研議多久如果政府要採取立法分流立法分階段推動哪一階段的目標草案組織機關跟完成的時程是什麼第二關於傳統領域跟諮商同意我們一直看到屢屢失敗的一個我們的證據比如說我們的咕咕山"},{"start":10276.67,"end":10292.47,"text":"我們的宜蘭還有最近的資本所以我就覺得做資商同意很像只是一個形式所以原民會報告我們看到的是資商同意參與辦法修正草案在114年12號預告已經彙整各界意見並完成草案的著修"},{"start":10293.024,"end":10310.433,"text":"既然如此本市要問正式正式的修正版本什麼時候要公佈這張同意制度是否會提升到法律的位階關係部落如何認定地方政府而確定而認定有爭議的時候中央要不要介入如果開發形式上不在形式上不在原鄉"},{"start":10311.141,"end":10329.461,"text":"或者土地登記上不是公有土地但實際影響部落生活 溪流 農地 生態 文化空間部落有沒有被諮商參與表達同意不同意的權利所以這不只是園民會的問題內政部 國土署 地政 國家公園 農業部領館 水保 自然保育 經濟部等"},{"start":10330.738,"end":10357.333,"text":"這些涉及產業開發交通部涉及道路工程這是各部會的政策如果碰到原住民族土地自然資源生活空間就不能把原基法當成復計而要把它當作前提所以資商同意如果只是行政流程不是權力保障如果共管只是一個政策口號不是在決策參與如果部落只是在最後一刻被通知那原基法在21條就只會停留在紙上"},{"start":10357.993,"end":10382.907,"text":"第三個就是剛才委員講到的我們的教育的預算總大概1.9%很多委員都有共識包括林千祺我們的兩個像鄭天才還有黃元委員都有提到還有我們高進委都有提到說要提到3%希望能夠把它制度化穩定化所以我們不能說只"},{"start":10383.507,"end":10402.498,"text":"只有一億然後一直審慎評估更不能用財政機率來擋下原住民族教育的需求我們請教育部主席總署法務部會提出三種法案是1.9 2.543的財務推推估法制風險政策影響及替代保障的機制第四個就是關於原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":10404.268,"end":10432.418,"text":"這市民資料說一個值得註明的地方說原本會截至1億5年4月政法發達基金有禁止有60多億元可以直接靈活的調度是只有1億5千多萬可是主計總署說同一個時間可以用的現金有29.3億這兩個數據的差距很大所以本市要請行政院主計總署原本會回應到底哪個數字才是真正可以支援政策的現金第五就是原住民主健保法的修正方向本市提出的修好幾個方向就是要推動"},{"start":10433.078,"end":10445.883,"text":"第一要推動各組的民主議會讓民主議會成為公法人第二要要求各地方政府設計設置以及援助民主專責機關或單位第三要設置援助民主地區建設的基金"},{"start":10446.499,"end":10466.71,"text":"第四是本席最重視的就是原居法第21條的諮商統一權原住民族土地不應該被公有私有的形式切割傳統領域是先於國家登記制度而存在的歷史文化空間不是因為後來被登記或私有就跟部門沒有關係那最近我們成功的將我們衛福部的我們呢"},{"start":10467.423,"end":10489.19,"text":"照顧原住民主健康的一個位階提升從科的一個層級提升到我們現在是希望能夠到私的層級當然我們的願景是能夠到更上一個階層不過我們跟主流生活在媒合或者是在交涉的時候其實如果進步一點就是代表原住民很大的進步也謝謝我們所有原住民立委的支持謝謝"},{"start":10491.326,"end":10512.227,"text":"非常謝謝盧先生委員跟大家說明一下你們的手上其實都有我們那個主計單位就是主計總署還有教育部還有園民會的資料待會可以請大家也參閱一下待會他們會有做一些說明好現在我們請這個台灣原住民政策協會理事長鄒族的陳敏媛歡迎謝謝"},{"start":10518.567,"end":10547.843,"text":"那個各位與會的我們的前輩 還有我們的立委大家好 平安那我今天只想針對我們提綱中的兩個部分來進行這個意見的交換首先是提綱一跟提綱四提綱一的部分關於都市園住民的這個狀況因為我們在資料上面看到其實有提到說這個超過六成那這是涉及的嘛那實際上面其實是不止啦"},{"start":10548.283,"end":10571.876,"text":"那所以說在這個不可逆的結構的這個現象它其實已經不是一個暫時的狀況了那所以說這個都市援助民族的這個發展條例發展就演繹到現在其實有一些我認為說有一些比較深層的一些矛盾就包含是說在這個目前的說明裡面提到如何保障在都市定區的族人以及說這個這個城鄉均衡發展這個其實這個命題是有一點點"},{"start":10575.179,"end":10591.359,"text":"有一點點困境就是說針對這個所謂的在反鄉或者是說就是讓族人留鄉的這個部分其實他會有一個預設是說那在都會地區原住民族的這個生活是不是非正常狀態那對於這些已經不可逆的狀況就我們講說已經超過三代"},{"start":10594.102,"end":10622.608,"text":"然後在這個在六都裡面包含說文化認同然後養育然後以及包含說語言傳承這個部分其實對於他們來說那其實會有一種這種主體性的否定就是說針對都市原住民族的部分那可是他同樣面臨到語言傳承身份認同跟文化元氣在這個完全沒有部落結構的這個狀況下面要如何落地那所以說在目前這個政策以這個強調園鄉發展這個地方的這個命題我所以一開始講說這可能有一些些"},{"start":10623.768,"end":10649.914,"text":"衝突跟矛盾那另外我也想提出一個問題是說都是原住民族發展條例的這個它的這個意旨到底是什麼它是以個人權的這個權力作為核心的框架嗎那如果是這個樣子的話其實對於原住民族集體的權力的發展它自己這個進程會造成一些困境因為我們講說原住民族的智商同意 土地自決這些東西它其實是跟土地連結的"},{"start":10650.814,"end":10671.96,"text":"那所以說在都會地區的這個都市原住民族發展條例到底是如何去面對這些狀況那在草案裡面其實比較沒有談到那所以說在這整個都市原住民族發展條例它對我們來說它其實不應該是一個獨立的一個專法或者是福利的專法它應該要在整體原住民族的整體集體權利的整體框架下面來去思考"},{"start":10672.82,"end":10686.579,"text":"對於這個都市原住民族與部落跟傳統領域以及智商同意之間的關係因為我們其實在近年都有不斷的會有這些司法的案件發生然後所以說必須要通盤考量到才不會造成我們講說整個集體權前進的一個傷害"},{"start":10690.188,"end":10716.406,"text":"那第二個提綱是針對提綱4的部分其實就是有關這個相關執法的問題我想先透過兩個大家應該是熟能詳的案例首先是資本關店案資本關店案是2018年發生的就是針對那個卡拉地部的傳統領域226公頃的關店招租那其實一開始他的問題就出現在他的租業已經簽訂然後接下來才要求部落進行職商統一"},{"start":10717.327,"end":10733.467,"text":"那這個諮商的這個 我們講說他的這個模型已經變成從實質是否要統一這個計畫 而是成為是否要去接受這個已經決定好的計畫那所以說因為有這個狀況 所以台北高等刑法 行政法院在109年這個數字1509號的判決其實已經認定說"},{"start":10736.591,"end":10763.589,"text":"資商同意的這個 它其實裡面很多問題啊我今天就挑一個就是代行召集制度它背後可能隱含著保障開發單位的因素實質減損部落自治對於這個族人對於我們講說傳統政治的參與功能然後部落的權力主體以及自主性遭到架空那因為有這些我們講說法院持這些理由要求這個我們講認為這個判決判決裁定判決撤銷酬赦許可"},{"start":10766.771,"end":10789.361,"text":"那在這個前提之下在去年就是我們講說智商同意的修正廠案已經出來了現在還掛在網上那也是在這一次兩公約審查不斷被反覆提出修正了所謂的無正當理由的這個代行召集的標準那可是針對這所謂無正當理由的這個認定到底是什麼尤其是說當這資訊不充足"},{"start":10791.022,"end":10814.309,"text":"然後決議在客觀上面如果不能召集的時候那這個東西到底要怎麼去這個東西會變成什麼樣子其實沒有人可以回答這個問題即便在那個兩個月的公聽會上面那我們會認為說其實FPIC就是事前自由知情同意的這個權利它其實設計的這核心要素是我們講包含說自覺的就表示說它不能單一由"},{"start":10815.369,"end":10833,"text":"某一個單位來去決定就是尤其是由政府部門來去決定那可是在這個這個狀況下面我們講說去年才這個辦法才修正通過然後民運署在1月這可能可以再澄清一下因為會統這個民運會這邊認為說地熱開發探勘階段不需要經過諮詢"},{"start":10837.984,"end":10855.804,"text":"開發階段才需要經過諮詢這個決議就是他們給廠商看的這個資料那所以說這個東西就根本根本跟FPIC原則是完全衝突的啊那你們怎麼會認為說這件事情是正當的那同時這個另外一個也是很奇葩的案件就是在卡到地步這個光電案才勝訴之後"},{"start":10857.253,"end":10867.368,"text":"那針對地熱開發卡大地步才跟這個八方電力公司內部進行討論然後用行政企業的方式來去完成所謂FPIC就是智商同意的要求"},{"start":10868.427,"end":10896.19,"text":"那這個資訊可能也要請園民會這邊確認因為園民會直接跟廠商說你們這個決議是無效的然後接下來那個電力開發公司很緊張然後就說那我這是無效的那我怎麼辦那因此在上個月5月18號Galati部就正式發聲明抗議就是說園民會的這個行為是違法違憲因為其實行政法院也判決在前你們是已經完全侵害到部落自主決議的這件事情這可能要"},{"start":10897.39,"end":10915.558,"text":"請我們兩個請在這個工具會的現場再做釐清那再者是第二個案例是和平水泥的這個案件就是那個Daga的那個和平水泥電廠那它這個部分其實就會咬到剛剛提到那個穿梦淋浴排除私有地的這件事情那在"},{"start":10916.898,"end":10926.689,"text":"最高行政法院112年這個上至4871判決他就認為說這個傳統領域先於國家存在不能以這公有或私有的這個行政概念來去限制這個範圍"},{"start":10928.072,"end":10943.219,"text":"那同樣的 雲林會在整個過程中法院直接指出了這個中央機關前後描述的內容都有不一致的問題那這個問題該怎麼去解決那同樣的在2025年就去年的11月就是針對這個屏東的這個發射場的這個爭議"},{"start":10947.661,"end":10966.369,"text":"依然維持著傳統領域主張不等於自動取得智商同意的主體地位這其實也是跟部落自決產生矛盾跟衝突所以說在這兩個案例裡面其實要去看的是說如果我們從這兩個案例裡面來去出發來去檢討所謂的部落公法人跟原保地"},{"start":10966.989,"end":10984.809,"text":"那就會發現當然說部落公法人如果是還是一樣這些狀況還是一樣的話我即便後面製造了多少的制度包括說部落公法人要求這個國家就是要求公法人按照國家行政規範來去運作那部落自主跟自決的這件事情根本就是還是"},{"start":10986.05,"end":11004.519,"text":"還是有這個根本性的衝突的問題那所以這根本不是事半公法人就可以解決的必須要去回到剛剛我們上面所看到這兩個後續不斷延伸出的這個問題那針對這個保留地的這個法律的優先立法也是一樣在這個兩個前提之下我們同樣一樣就是"},{"start":11005.419,"end":11026.338,"text":"去鞏固一個現有根本有缺陷的這個制度框架我們講說包含說建民登記抵押權設定在這個我們講說這個也是不可逆的狀況下面去去推動這個保留地的這個優先立法那是否會我們講說去延續這個目前結構性的困境的這件事情也是值得應該注意的地方 謝謝 以上"},{"start":11027.984,"end":11045.819,"text":"非常謝謝米媛理事長在這邊也非常專業的提出人民會幾個問題待會我們也請杜如璋副主委要回應一下剛剛那個米媛理事長她所提的幾個問題好 繼續我們請慈愛議員也是來自於都會區好 歡迎慈愛議員是幾年 服務幾年了我們的"},{"start":11052.5,"end":11052.8,"text":"我是新竹市議員林慈愛"},{"start":11073.985,"end":11094.133,"text":"那新竹市是一個小而美的城市有三高一低哪三高呢就是高所得高學歷高出生率哪一低呢就是平均的這個年齡非常的低喔那以從新竹市平地原住民的角度來看呢都是原住民族發展條例"},{"start":11094.853,"end":11113.463,"text":"不能只看六都也不能只看原鄉新竹市雖然不是原住民族的地區但已經是一個原住民族人穩定居住還有就業、就學跟租屋以及生活的一個都會城市新竹市平均原住民的人口數從109年2136人一直到15年4月底有2626人"},{"start":11121.687,"end":11149.938,"text":"超過了2600位的族人在這裡這代表著新竹市這個平地原住民不只是零星的這個個案喔而是需要制度還要窗口預算支持的一個明確群體喔那加上我們3D原住民的族人呢其實新竹市已經有超過5600位的族人生活在新竹市喔那今年也要產生一席3D原住民席次的議員真的要感謝我們高金委員來大力的支持為我們爭取喔"},{"start":11151.078,"end":11168.556,"text":"那新竹市的特殊性呢在於它是科技產業教育資源服務業跟高房價高租金還有這個交錯的一個城市喔那平地園住民在新竹市生活呢其實面對的是不只是這個文化活動的不足那也非常具體的這個"},{"start":11171.559,"end":11192.991,"text":"這個資訊的資源不足還有子女教育的支持有限那以及族裔文化傳承的環境薄弱如果政府只用一種市民服務的方式來管理就會看不見原住民這個原住民族身份所帶來的一個特殊的需求從教育的結構來看新竹市的原住民族人他是一個高度進入這個"},{"start":11193.871,"end":11209.5,"text":"都市勞動的一個市場我們看到我們在新竹市的原住民族人他其實我們的工作集中在這個營建的這個工程業還有製造業還有這個住宿跟餐飲業那面臨的工作可能是工時長薪資不穩跟職業安全跟轉職的困難以及這個產業這個波動的風險"},{"start":11215.763,"end":11223.192,"text":"因此都市原住民的政策不能只停留在這個生活的一個補助而是真正要對接新竹市的這個產業結構那提供這個資訊跟政策補助還有就業媒合那青年就業跟創業支持的這些勞動權益的一個保障"},{"start":11233.143,"end":11245.211,"text":"因此我在這裡要主張以高經委員的這個版本為基礎必須把新竹市這一類非原鄉都市這個納入這個制度的一個設計只要原住民人口到達一個規模地方政府就應該設置都會原住民權益的這個維護機制並建立住宅就業單一窗口"},{"start":11258.619,"end":11261.801,"text":"那豬跟住宅的知情呢還有族裔文化的課程課業的輔導跟反歧視的一個申訴還有我們反鄉棄於交通補助及地方預算的這個責任喔那新竹市平地原住民人數雖然不如六都這麼樣的龐大喔但權力不能因此被打折那郵輪會應該儘速提出我們的願板喔讓新竹市的平地原住民不再被制度邊緣化喔那我們從這個"},{"start":11285.836,"end":11307.996,"text":"地方實務角度提出幾項的觀察原住民的基本法已經實行將近20年但許多的制度仍然停留在這個所謂的原則宣示尤其是都市原住民族人的需求長期缺乏這個法制的支撐以新竹市來說族人生活在都市環境裡面對的是居住、就業"},{"start":11308.737,"end":11337.156,"text":"教育 主語 文化傳承那政府照顧跟公共參與等綜合的問題這些問題不是單一補助可以解決而是需要制度化預算化跟地方執行的一個機制那因此我建議中央技術提出這個所謂的都市原住民主發展條例的院版草案並明定地方的這個政府責任中央補助機制跟跨區住的這個整合平台同時呢"},{"start":11337.816,"end":11357.992,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金應該推動法治化盡力穩定撥補的這個公式避免政策因為裁員而中斷那另外原住民族教育經費也應該檢討要提高並把都市主義教師跨校授課文化認同教育跟原住民學生支持納入這個重點"},{"start":11359.113,"end":11387.556,"text":"那都市原住民不是看不見的一個少數而是真正在城市裡生活工作學習跟傳承文化的重要的一個族群那我們期待原住民族基本法從這個真正從法律文字走進地方的一個治理讓族人在都市生活可以看見被尊重也被制度支持那都市原住民現在已經是進行式了中央法治跟地方制度都要被跟上以上報告謝謝"},{"start":11389.281,"end":11411.208,"text":"好非常謝謝慈愛議員簡短有力的一些看法那我想給一點時間從我們這個部落裡面來的他是鹿山森林文化博物館的館長今天沒有在名單當中但他昨天知道我們有這個公聽會所以昨天特地北上來所以我們也請這個阿力曼"},{"start":11413.289,"end":11435.178,"text":"來幫我們來提出一些他的看法尤其他給我一些資料他感覺原住民好像是跟強盜集團小偷討價還價這樣子的一個非常有衝擊力的一個書面的說明其實讓我非常的感動好 我們請阿里曼 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11438.226,"end":11440.508,"text":"哎呀呀 嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕嚕"},{"start":11455.718,"end":11461.82,"text":"今天真的非常感謝大家能夠有這樣的一個機會也謝謝委員還有我們很多原住民的前輩能夠在這裡共同討論希望今天有很好的結果所以剛才我特別用我們布農族的報家英來把這個信息傳遍給我們台灣各個地方的原住民的部落"},{"start":11483.667,"end":11510.303,"text":"那過去在83年的時候我擔任過這個國大代表的高政治委員的這個國會助理就是那個時間關鍵時刻就是改變了由三胞改成原住民我們才知道我們還是原來這個政府把我們當成是人來看但是接下來"},{"start":11514.18,"end":11533.794,"text":"從那個時候到現在已經32年其實我常常在部落蹲點也常常訪問齊老我們的老人一直在懷念過去那1895年的時候對原住民來講是蠻奇怪的事情蠻清政府跟日本在東北打戰竟然把台灣割讓給日本"},{"start":11537.717,"end":11549.93,"text":"從那個時候一直到現在已經有132年那我們部落現在的齊老長者一個一個的凋零那過去我們也做了部落地圖如果在"},{"start":11550.709,"end":11573.583,"text":"慢一點實施這個原住民的自治可能我們的下一代不會關心我們原住民要不要做這個自治的一個問題那第二個現在在談這個事辦的問題認為真的不要開玩笑就像我們原來這個台灣的這個土地是我們原住民的"},{"start":11574.023,"end":11593.513,"text":"我還跟你們這個外來這個強盜集團跟小偷討價還價我們站在原住民立場來看來看真的是很好笑很好笑這個事辦你們我看了一些顏明慧的資料事辦有沒有成功有三個指標"},{"start":11595.087,"end":11605.417,"text":"第一個他跟部落的這個他跟公部門的那個協調或者執行能力有沒有那第二個他的處理財務狀況怎麼樣一下子示範給他們120萬"},{"start":11611.058,"end":11625.74,"text":"部落可能沒辦法處理尤其是這個財務要核銷就很困難所以還有一個第三個部落早就瓦解了他們沒有那個人才部落"},{"start":11626.441,"end":11655.044,"text":"早就被廢武功了你要叫他示範真的一定很困難所以我認為我呼籲尤其是去年4月30號針對部落功法人示範我們有成立記者會發表過如果在這一次尤其是在台灣在標榜台灣是一個民主自由的國家那我們的人權指數94分全世界名列前茅"},{"start":11655.604,"end":11669.419,"text":"但是對台灣這個台灣土地的主人沒有把土地還給我們連我們對我們的這個基地錢都沒有辦法掌握在我們的手上真的我發現到也沒有把我們當成來看"},{"start":11670.76,"end":11681.17,"text":"所以我呼籲第一個立即成立就是實施這個部落公法人那第二個要編一些經費協助這個部落推動這些而且要有一個培力的計畫培養這些人才也協助我也認同幾個前面朋友提到的"},{"start":11695.863,"end":11719.667,"text":"讓各個族群成立一個民主議會來推動由他們來慢慢練習來承接這樣的一個工作所以我這樣看我是從在地來看我聽到有這樣的一個好消息去年有一個記者會到現在好像也沒有一點成果如果今年沒有的話我們可能會舉行國際記者會"},{"start":11723.368,"end":11739.395,"text":"讓這個人權評比了解我們的明白台灣原住民真的已經被弄成這個樣子了都已經變成無法無天了所以我認為各位剛才特別用布農族的報價音讓大家點醒一下"},{"start":11740.755,"end":11762.808,"text":"趕快悔改 趕快實施部落公法人吳立朗謝謝吳立朗非常謝謝我們的阿里曼部落的區長代表 謝謝那我們現在就請列席的與會機關代表回應說明一下我們希望今天回應的機關代表能夠對於今天專家學者所提出的意見跟問題"},{"start":11764.49,"end":11793.129,"text":"實質的回應好嗎那我會給你們多一點的時間希望你們也能夠回應那我們先請副主委杜璋副主委就針對因為我知道在園民會風管這個今天的四大議題的其實都是您在在在風管那當然了今天談到最大的問題是中發基金啊然後還有教育啊然後還有我們的公法人的部分呢當然就是還有原計法推動委員會的這樣子的執行落實的進度謝謝"},{"start":11795.369,"end":11820.597,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們今天的議會的先進專家學者還有各機關的代表那這邊針對剛剛所提的這個公聽會所提的相關的意見我做一個簡單的回應那事實上我也有請同仁每一個都做記錄那在公聽會完畢以後我們還是會有書面的一些相關的回應再回應給各個專家學者所提的問題給大家做一個回覆"},{"start":11822.059,"end":11823.411,"text":"我想做個簡單的第一個是"},{"start":11826.209,"end":11854.438,"text":"剛剛謝謝施委員特別幫我們帶入時空隧道這個遠跡法立法的過程我們很清楚的知道當時的高經委員的應酬帷幄跟我們威斯貝林蔡宗涵的這個分工讓這個在天時地利人和的情況之下通過了這邊要跟那個施老師講說那個手機是普忠誠的是丟普忠誠的不是威斯貝林的普忠誠為了這件事情常常跟我提說我的手機當時被丟掉以後"},{"start":11855.158,"end":11880.259,"text":"困擾我好幾個月,因為我的通訊都在裡面另外就是說在這個法案的過程,因為我在90年就到園民會,91年到園民會所以這個過程不能說我是當事者,我只是在旁邊這樣一路參與那也問很多當事的我知道這過程真的是不容易,當時也蠻意外的那當時的那個柯建民當時也有問,葉金榮也有問朴仲成這個法案怎麼樣"},{"start":11881.377,"end":11888.467,"text":"我真的說沒有什麼太大的關係OK啦沒問題啦所以每次碰到柯建民他會說我一直記得不忠誠"},{"start":11889.964,"end":11918.36,"text":"當然這個法案最後到行政院他還有一個插曲可能這個大家可能比較不太清楚到行政院的時候有其他機關希望能夠提復議在那個半個小時的過程裡面當時的處長林江一遷主委還有我們的陳建聯主委在當時兩個就一直沒有表達意見撐過了那個30分鐘最後那個法案就沒有提復議這是一個我補充一下因為大家大合照了所以呢匆匆的兩位就走掉了所以那個就沒有"},{"start":11919.073,"end":11944.483,"text":"沒有後續的體服役的過程好那關於自治剛剛大家提了很多我想我這邊做一個簡單的說明自治這個議題會裡面事實上也提過自治法提到行政院五進五出了不是都沒有啦有大家就知道說五進五出沒有最後的結果為什麼難度很高"},{"start":11947.199,"end":11962.565,"text":"我們一直強調這是原住民的核心沒有錯那我們也知道自治裡面有四個元素一個主體就是我們的成員第二個是我們的客觀我們的現實的領域到哪裡第三個是資源第四個可能就是這個權限"},{"start":11964.685,"end":11984.783,"text":"這個要具備它才叫自治如果我們的自治只是要討論部落自己私底下的事情其實很簡單可以馬上的施行但是因為你這個自治你要去施行的時候你也要限制全國的國民你要按照我的規定來做所以它一定要透過法制那這個法制就剛剛我講五進五出"},{"start":11986.092,"end":12007.737,"text":"那它的確有它的難度在裡面,那會裡面也一直不斷的在想辦法當然我們這個事辦也引起大家很大的質疑,說法有了就應該怎麼樣,應該公法人馬上實行的確我們在會裡面也看到很多地方團體也有自己族人也有非原住民的跑來,針對我們這個公法人也有很多的意見"},{"start":12008.797,"end":12028.062,"text":"那我們也在這個協調的過程知道說這個推出去會造成更大的爭議當然大家會認為說反正你就推嘛大家也要知道說我們是行政議題啦那我相信在這邊也有我們的前兩位主委還有副主委都在園民會待過,應該知道園民會的環境跟角色"},{"start":12029.082,"end":12054.878,"text":"我們在處理這些法案的時候,我們要通過不斷的溝通當然遠跡法也有給我們34條解釋的權利那這個部分我們也試著一直在跟各部會在討論說我們是不是有可能要透過解釋來處理但是很多的法律見解就認為說他可能要在法制上來處理會比較妥適所以就會有後面這一些過程讓大家一直覺得原民會並沒有特別的認真在處理"},{"start":12055.698,"end":12066.484,"text":"也跟大家報告,事實上我們一直不斷的在努力去克服這個問題那另外就是在這個教育的部分,待會有教育部或者是我們會練的同仁會跟大家回應"},{"start":12067.577,"end":12088.832,"text":"那我就針對這個綜合發展基金我的了解是事實上沒有錯那個主計他們是說我們大概有29億的經費是現有的這個資金可以調度那會裡面的呈現的是一點多億我們有27億是存到銀行裡面定存雖然這個時間很短我們希望在這個短時間裡面也能夠伸出幾百萬的利息"},{"start":12089.773,"end":12111.803,"text":"所以我們就把它轉到銀行去訂存 那那個隨時也是可以解因為它時間很短 可能就半年幾個月就會提出來所以原則上那個金額上面應該出入是沒有問題的是29億多 因為我們一點多億 那存到銀行27億多所以這個大概是沒有問題 我們也知道這個綜合發展基金也謝謝那個高軍委員在"},{"start":12113.362,"end":12134.475,"text":"去年的主決有特別提到要三年要能夠撥補就是當時電出去的錢都要能夠再補充回來那當然第一年行政院只給了五億啦但是他的期限是到一百一十七年所以還有兩年的時間今年我們也有新聞委員剛剛也有特別提到我們也有新聞給行政院希望能夠"},{"start":12135.647,"end":12145.853,"text":"盡快的回充我們當時所墊出去淨化補償的經費所以淨化補償經費像今年就已經到位了那我們還要額外要回補的資金"},{"start":12148.664,"end":12175.878,"text":"中國發展基金目前為止我們在我們的書面資料提到說那目前這些經費在運用我們現在所編的相關預算跟政策的需求是沒有問題的是可以運作的可以正常的維運當然我們希望說跟委員意思一樣說他能夠盡可能的回補回來就是我們應該的經費是多少那第三個部分我想要談的是那個傳統領域的部分剛剛有特別多提到這個土海法"},{"start":12176.684,"end":12183.565,"text":"土海法釋進釋出,到立法院釋進釋出甚至近來有的都沒有討論又退回去了"},{"start":12184.605,"end":12209.751,"text":"那我相信我還是背影前主委也很清楚他當時也非常支持這個分流立法的這樣的一個政策的推動所以我們推的這個土地原住民保衛地權利回復及管理利用條例這邊跟主委報告是說我們推的是權利回復及管理利用條例不是權利回復是有在我們的法案的這個名稱裡面所以並不是"},{"start":12210.291,"end":12230.606,"text":"只有管理利用條例所以那個權利服務我們在裡面也寫了很多的條文就是希望說透過這個法當然它不是像土海法那麼大的範圍但是我們希望透過這個法在土地利用或者是一些相關的議題上這個非原住民的權益上原住民的權益上能夠更透過這個"},{"start":12232.447,"end":12249.715,"text":"這個管理辦法的提升以後它是法律的效率能夠更落實保障原住民族土地權益當然後面的土海法是不是就放棄了就是有關於海域的部分事實上我們相關的條文是都有草案在我們是一步一步會再往前推進那另外剛好提到這個"},{"start":12251.851,"end":12276.511,"text":"幾個個案資商同意的像資本卡達迪布最近跟八方這個第二公司的這個合約的問題我想要這邊澄清的就是說事實上人民會沒有說他們那個程序不合法我們沒有在整個的新聞內容裡面沒有那是八方公司他問我們說他們已經跟他們達成協議他們要他們已經做過資商同意這個部分我們只是告訴他說資商同意的"},{"start":12277.231,"end":12305.016,"text":"規定是這樣那你這個它是不是有效你要回去問那個地方的鄉鎮公所的是不是這個程序上是符合我們沒有說你那個不合法我們沒有講這個我想再次聲明當然人民會的角色是什麼當然在諮商同意辦法它是一個法規命令大家都認為說要有其他的改變我們事實上剛剛也有委員提到我們在114年的3月有預告事實上預告完了我們草案也已經草擬完成了事實上已經完成了"},{"start":12305.856,"end":12330.068,"text":"那我們在大概這一兩個月兩三個月可能會對外公布因為我們還有一些後面的程序要走我們需要再去檢視一些相關的部會針對裡面有沒有什麼自愛難行的部分所以應該這兩三個月會有一個結果那在這諮商同意裡面它最大的改變是未來部落可以自己制定自己諮商同意的程序就是說我們會給你一個"},{"start":12331.311,"end":12351.977,"text":"公用的版本說智商同意的十個步驟但是如果你部落覺得我部落傳統的灌輸我是不需要這十個步驟我可能只要兩個三個或是說我的組織成員我不需要全部落的人投票我們都尊重只要透過部落會議的這個決議你們的章程的規定就按照部落的方式來做智商同意"},{"start":12352.857,"end":12370.95,"text":"所以在這些許許多多的執法的部分像傳統林域化設辦法也跟大家報告最近這一年曾主委商量以後我們已經公布了三個鄉的傳統林域有阿里山鄉有復興有尖石"},{"start":12371.87,"end":12397.855,"text":"接下來我們還會持續在持續的公告那也有幾個部落也做傳統靈異的公告事實上這些工作都在持續的做只是沒有大聲的嚷嚷說我們做了多少的這樣的一個成果我想大家也知道說原民會在整個行政體系的角色是什麼那我們會盡我們的能量大家也知道你們講的其實原民會的同仁"},{"start":12398.922,"end":12412.965,"text":"大概都非常支持,也沒有人會反對但是畢竟我們在一個行政體系裡面我們還要注意到一些法治上、法校上的問題所以我們會有一些保留那當然要持續的努力最後還是要講的是說"},{"start":12414.366,"end":12431.9,"text":"不管怎麼樣,原民會為了落實這個原基法的精神保障原住民族的權益原民會會持續推動各項法制的制定辦理原住民族土地權利的維護還有我們這個維護原住民族自然資源權益及精進原住民族健康需求與社會安全體系"},{"start":12432.58,"end":12448.458,"text":"那全面落實原住民族轉型正義本會將持續聆聽族人的意見滾動式的檢討各項政策的措施並結合跨部會及地方政府的資源共同為原住民族族人的權益來努力當然還是要謝謝今天有很多我們的先進都來了"},{"start":12450.089,"end":12464.314,"text":"原住民的政策、權益各方面都是跟著你們的步伐往前推進原民會一定不會忘記我們的責任是什麼謝謝大家給我們的支持、鼓勵或批評我們都虛心的接受"},{"start":12468.223,"end":12495.893,"text":"非常謝謝薩白白的論壇也謝謝我們的副主委副主委的回應其實我有幾個想要跟大家分享的就是在立法院24年來我經歷了國民黨執政民進黨執政我要說明的是當民進黨還沒執政的時候其實是跟原住民的運動手牽手走在一起去衝撞這個對我們不公平的體制而我們大家現在再回想一下"},{"start":12497.093,"end":12521.763,"text":"民進黨執政也已經將近二十年了我們好像在走同樣的路而回首往事我覺得在場有非常多的先進跟前輩們我們好像又回到同樣的那個年代而阿里曼剛剛給我的一些這個他的書面的說明他有說原民會成立了三十年然後部落仍然沒有法律的地位尤其所謂的公法人"},{"start":12522.643,"end":12535.33,"text":"然後包括我們的諮商統一權卡特地部其實呢按照目前的諮商統一權也已經成立了他們的諮商的投票的決定但是呢 園民會當然就如剛剛副主委所講的"},{"start":12536.907,"end":12560.036,"text":"人民會可能近期就會公佈法規的解釋可是我們要問的是難道加大地部在既有的法令之下已經通過了部落的這些投票的規範還有諮商同意權然後難道我們的中央人民會要請我們加大地部等你們法規同意了然後他再來一次嗎所以為什麼今天加大"},{"start":12561.016,"end":12584.228,"text":"他會覺得在藉由法規他們已經按照這樣的模式來形成部落的一個共識但是呢 園民會卻沒有這樣子的肩膀支撐他們 扛住他們所以這是他們最重要的一些 他們的想法所以我們希望園民會成立了30年我相信杜璋 您現在已經在已經我們相遇的時候您是處長"},{"start":12585.408,"end":12610.546,"text":"對原住民土地你最了解然後也在Y.S.柏林做主委的時候呢我們也共同的衝撞過而你現在做原民獲得副主委了其實我們聽到的您的說明跟以前國民黨執政的時候沒有兩樣所以了解原住民的民進黨的朋友們我們希望在你們的執政的同時呢也能夠不要把你曾經牽手的原住民的族人朋友把它丟棄"},{"start":12611.787,"end":12637.892,"text":"照理說你們自己的兒童原住民也跟我們同樣走上街頭照理說有非常多的法令的基礎你們比我們還清楚因為你們很多的法令人法律界的人士很多的學者專家包括施老師 薛教授我覺得現在這公部門裡面不管是考試院不管是監察院都有我們的原住民的族人以前是沒有的"},{"start":12639.011,"end":12664.061,"text":"但是現在我們發現非常多的中央部會即使有原住民的族人存在但是我們的步伐好像沒有再往前進所以今天為什麼我謝謝我們內政委員會的先祥召委能夠把這個時間給我我希望趁今天的時間大家再回想一下當時我們最困難的那個年代是多麼的團結"},{"start":12665.442,"end":12678.216,"text":"多麼的聲音是一致的所以我也很高興今天有非常多的援運前輩永遠的在演黨的援運前輩還有這個朋友們我們今天你們依然會從部落裡面上來講錄你的心聲"},{"start":12680.918,"end":12704.174,"text":"我們想說請公部門待會兒你們的簡短發言跟說明之後我們還有第二輪可以再請我們的寫者來說明一下今天我覺得寶貴的時間很重要我們大家可以好好聊聊繼續我想要請剛剛我們有一直在談到的中發基金的我們請一下行政院的主計總處"},{"start":12705.815,"end":12724.906,"text":"在您上台之前我請大家翻開一下那個主計總署今天有給我們的說明的這個書面的說明您可以慢慢的走上來我覺得主計總署這份報告最大的問題它不是數字算錯而是故意要迴避真正的責任"},{"start":12725.606,"end":12729.547,"text":"我們可以看到我們主計總署給我們的資料是說我們的這個這個基金的規模是沒有欠錢的但是我們看園民會的說明報告我們其實只有一億多了剛剛副主委也講了其實我們有二十幾億是放在中發基金放在銀行裡面"},{"start":12748.391,"end":12776.651,"text":"我跟大家說明一下為什麼這個錢會放在銀行裡面那實際上我們今年也通過了進法補償大家如果記得的話一公頃六萬塊提高到六萬塊當時行政院呢只願意在公務預算裡面編列四萬塊剩下的兩萬塊就要從綜合發展基金裡面來挪用當時呢我在立法院裡面我就極力的爭取跟行政院長極力爭取很遺憾的是我們的中發基金現在"},{"start":12777.572,"end":12805.371,"text":"要負擔另外不足的2萬塊所以也就是說我們如果行政院我們的園民會要把金髮補償補足6萬塊的話就必須從中發基金的27億左右把它挪走也就是說現在園民會裡面27億如果是把金髮補償都撥補完畢的話就是我們現在看一下這個螢幕上面"},{"start":12807.345,"end":12824.788,"text":"看一下那個啟程就是園民會在4月份的說明然後金剛剛的說明是只剩1億多了大家都知道尤其是瓦里菲林前主委你也清楚知道中發基金我們是要做什麼事情來做的包括最重要的是原住民的金融的流通"},{"start":12825.569,"end":12848.105,"text":"那其實中發基金如果沒有錢的話原民會的確他的預算會從其他的公務預算裡面去排擠掉的去排擠掉的所以現在我們有非常多的原住民的鄉公所其實有很多的既有計畫要去執行的時候都沒有預算這是我們現在最大的困境好我們現在請主計處的"},{"start":12851.156,"end":12865.148,"text":"專委來跟我們說明一下我先跟大家說明一下當然專委不能夠在今天有一些決策啦但是我們也給他們機會來說明一下請大家放心中發基金我一定會追蹤到底的好嗎謝謝"},{"start":12867.15,"end":12884.88,"text":"主席各位先進大家好那關於那個波卜原發基金原民綜合發展基金的這個部分其實主計總署跟在場的各位先進委員是一樣的基金的一個財務永續其實對主計總署來講也是一個堅持的一個目標"},{"start":12885.922,"end":12905.639,"text":"那在115年度的時候我們有考慮到一個基金的一個現金短缺的一個狀況所以我們其實是有建立一套一個具體的一個撥補的一個原則的在實務的一個作業上面我們每一年編預算會去參考以前年度的一個執行的狀況"},{"start":12907.02,"end":12927.26,"text":"精算每一年度基金它的一個實際的一個業務支出還有收入再依實際的一個資金缺口透過公務預算的一個撥補程序來做處理那如果年度中有因為一些突發的重大的災害也會配合的政策"},{"start":12928.081,"end":12946.297,"text":"也會額外的來做協助來處理我們是希望在這樣子的一個運作的一個機制下可以讓基金的一個資金的運作可以不中斷那至於剛才委員有講到說我們的一個數字的部分其實我們沒有刻意要去隱瞞什麼事實"},{"start":12948.439,"end":12965.311,"text":"就是這個部分其實就是純粹就會計報表上面的一個呈現就是以會計的原則來講就是現金就是存款那存款就是定期存款跟活存那我們也有在報告裡面有最後去呈現一個年底的一個現金數"},{"start":12966.332,"end":12989.08,"text":"那至於就是大家現在看到目前的一個現金就是活存的部分是1.5億元的這個部分主要是因為115年度我們額外撥補的5億元其實是還沒有進去的那如果再撥補進去那其實依原民會這個預算書這個呈現他到年底的一個基金餘額是有8億多的以上說明"},{"start":12991.883,"end":12998.429,"text":"請問一下請問一下這個部分我曾經做過一個組決議115到117年每年要撥補23億請問一下你們會依照這個組決議來進行嗎"},{"start":13006.864,"end":13025.104,"text":"這邊跟委員報告就是我們現在的一個撥補機制是會站在基金財務永續的一個目標下然後依照每一年的一個現金流所以立法院的主決議你們也可以不甩是這樣的意思嗎就是所以你們的意思就是不打算把這個基金給撥足"},{"start":13026.565,"end":13036.013,"text":"我們會視我們的財政狀況來做處理我們請園民會的組織單位來說明一下很顯然園民會的組織單位跟我們行政院的組織總署來請一下組織單位今天的王主任王主任來說明一下組織室的黃主任"},{"start":13053.666,"end":13064.633,"text":"好謝謝你們同意這個行政院的主席總署這樣說明嗎主席還有各位先進大家好那關於我們原發原住民族的綜合發展基金的部分"},{"start":13065.942,"end":13091.81,"text":"原來的基金限值是98.5億元那目前的使用狀況大概是有30億元的部分是放在我們長期貸款就是給原住民族的一些像事業貸款或是微小貸款這些這個部分的貸款大概就在30億元左右那其他的部分因為的確是因為過去的幫忙就是支付在"},{"start":13093.27,"end":13110.257,"text":"進法補償的部分所以會造成一些累積的虧損那以目前以到目前四月份的月報來看就是像剛剛主席總署所說明的目前現金銀行現金的部分是1.5億元那在短期的"},{"start":13112.028,"end":13137.743,"text":"短期的定存的部分有27.7億元那這個部分就是預計在這一兩個月之內就會撥付給縣市政府去做進法補償的一個支出所以就是也非常希望說立法院能夠盡快的將115年的預算能夠讓他通過那就可以讓我們撥補虧損的5億元能夠盡快的入到我們的基金帳戶謝謝所以請問一下如果這個5億元撥補不進來的話園民會的運作還OK嗎順暢嗎"},{"start":13141.724,"end":13161.854,"text":"就是至少在現金流量方面算是會比較稍微穩健一點好 謝謝好 原民會你們加油立法院的立法委員們會是你們最好的支持者好嗎我們也希望行政院你們能夠理解你們剛剛的一些說明是我們不能夠接受的好不好 謝謝"},{"start":13162.955,"end":13179.841,"text":"你看喔看一下原住民綜合發展基金已經短促了68.7億68.7億而68.7億當中呢其實呢他的確會排擠到非常多我們既有在中發基金要去執行的一些業務所以原民會"},{"start":13181.782,"end":13205.382,"text":"杜莊副主委你應該頭很大吧我們也希望主委能夠趕快跟我們的行政院長溝通一下謝謝另外因為教育部今天也有出席我們請因為我們今天大概就是就國小跟國中所以就是國民學前教育署的原民特教組的副組長是嗎"},{"start":13206.923,"end":13234.315,"text":"林淑敏您來回應一下因為我們今天有非常多的校長們也在現場包括議員們也非常關心非常關心我們教育的問題而今天我們的教育部有一些書面說明其實呢我跟大家報告一下我們目前已經在立法院提案我們要修法把原住民的民族教育原住民的教育的門檻提高到3%就是具有115年度"},{"start":13236.776,"end":13261.125,"text":"總共經費是在六十七億那是佔我們的這個原住民的比例是百分之二點五四我們希望調高到百分之三這個部分呢那其實雖然只有百分提高到百分之四點多但是呢他的確會對我們的原住民族的教育會有一些影響但是我們也非常的遺憾就是教育部和人民會其實都非常的支持但是呢今天主計總署"},{"start":13262.566,"end":13280.522,"text":"他有意見他說這個原基法第七條他說呢把我們的這個既有的原住民教育法裡面編列的民主教育的經費提高到百分之三他覺得有違財政紀律法的精神"},{"start":13281.263,"end":13301.825,"text":"然後呢增加政府稅出為子民彌補基金的來源以及政府預算資源配置僵化影響教育部配合各項教育發展他希望我們能夠審慎評估所以很顯然就是行政院其實呢跟我們的立法跟我們的基層的教育的這個代表們"},{"start":13302.486,"end":13327.443,"text":"我們的想法有很大的落差但是沒有關係我們已經提出這個法令的修正我們希望未來行政院也能夠理解我們的原住民的教育前線的資源的不足以及現在有非常多的法令我們必須要推動然後如果很多的法令的推動之下沒有預算的跟進其實呢是不妥的而且沒辦法進行的好我們現在請"},{"start":13329.104,"end":13344.537,"text":"國教署的副組長林副組長來做一些今天我們有非常多的教育率先進提出的一些意見謝謝主席那在座各位先進還有我們現場的很多校長跟老師市長們"},{"start":13345.998,"end":13361.833,"text":"謝謝大家在剛剛所針對教育議題所提出的有關於在現場的一些觀察跟一些看法那教育部國教署呢其實在整體上是跟我們的教育部裡面教育部"},{"start":13362.293,"end":13381.429,"text":"的整體的原住民族教育法以及原住民族教育發展計畫的這個重要的方向那並且跟原住民族委員會這邊持續都有一些原住民教育的相關事項的一些共同合作跟推展那這個比較大的部分就請大家可以參閱書面資料"},{"start":13382.91,"end":13399.118,"text":"那剛剛針對市長們所提的一些問題那我這邊我有列出了我記錄下的幾點那跟大家做一些回應那第一個是有關於校長所提到的泰雅克岡的部分這個部分應該是援助民族委員會"},{"start":13401.338,"end":13419.803,"text":"這邊主政的一個計畫那國教署這邊其實這三年來這一期的計畫裡面三年度計畫的經費裡面國教署這邊大概分攤50%900多萬元的經費那所以這個部分我們大家也會尊重原住民委員原住民組委員會這邊的規劃"},{"start":13421.423,"end":13449.02,"text":"那是不是後續繼續執行還是有其他的相關規劃我們都會來配合來做一些協助那第二個部分是有關於族語跟文化教學的部分那其實在我們12年國教課綱裡面針對族語教學跟原住民族相關文化的教學都有一些規範那特別是到了110年之後修訂課綱之後那我們在國小、國中、高中"},{"start":13449.58,"end":13469.624,"text":"都有足語的課程那只要學校的學生選期那學校就一定要開課那另外還有在議題融入方面或是校定課程方面學校都可以來進行我們原住民族教育的相關的議題的執行那當然特別是像校定課程的部分我們也有團隊專業團隊來協助"},{"start":13472.185,"end":13486.422,"text":"學校來進行相關的課程規劃跟實施那至於市長也有提到實驗學校或是實驗班的部分那在這個部分其實學校裡面它可以依據學校型態實驗教育"},{"start":13487.723,"end":13502.329,"text":"學校型態實驗教育發展條例來設立或是調整成為實驗學校那只要以那個實驗計畫跟提出實驗計畫跟實施規範就可以來做處理然後目前全國有46所的"},{"start":13503.81,"end":13531.421,"text":"學校那另外還有可以用實驗班的方式來進行那目前有16個學校是用實驗班就部分班級來做進行推動我們原住民教育的相關事項那在這樣的一個法源之下其實學校裡面在推動相關的課程以及課程的規劃其實都有蠻高的彈性那不管是俗語的學習或者是民族文化的學習課程"},{"start":13532.441,"end":13549.802,"text":"他都可以做了一個整體學校有個整體的規劃那今天在座的市長們也非常關心都會區原住民的相關的學習那在我們原民會有一個都會區的原住民的相關計畫"},{"start":13550.723,"end":13565.908,"text":"那部裡面我們這邊也有推動一個都會區原住民族教育推廣計畫針對都會區的原住民族教育的部分來做推行那近幾年來辦理的重點大概"},{"start":13566.548,"end":13589.45,"text":"有包括在都會區的原住民文化特色課程的推動那還有原住民學生部落文化體驗營的活動的推動那還有包括原住民學生的升學輔導的講座那這幾年辦理下來因為會看到現場的一些需求那我們在115年度也做了一些"},{"start":13590.31,"end":13618.275,"text":"計劃的些微的增加就是增加需要再做一些處理的部分就是有關於學生的適性輔導課程方面我們在今年也加入了這樣的一個發展還有整體的發展原住民的全民原教課程的部分讓我們原住民孩子再度會去那跟其他的孩子相關的對於原住民文化的尊重的部分這個部分的課程也會持續來做推動"},{"start":13619.495,"end":13646.18,"text":"接下來師長們還有提到原住民重點學校認定的部分這個認定的部分是依據原住民族教育法實行細則第四條裡面的規範來做處理它裡面有提到怎麼樣在原住民地區學生達到三分之一或者是非原住民地區學生達到100人或三分之一以上它就是原住民重點學校這個部分主管機關他會"},{"start":13647.06,"end":13665.059,"text":"每三年來做一次的認定那另外在原住民重點學校或是原住民教育班的專任老師的部分剛剛市長門上也有提到就是原住民級老師的部分那這個部分是規範在我們原住民主教育法第34"},{"start":13666.941,"end":13689.551,"text":"那有規定就是原住民重點學校裡面的像說在國小裡面的老師是不得低於三分之一或者是學校裡面的學生比那國中的部分則不低於老師學校裡面原額的5%那另外就是主管機關就是教育各級主管機關呢"},{"start":13690.492,"end":13706.634,"text":"他要在當年度的教師甄選的時候呢在教師的缺額那個缺額裡面放入一定比率的聘任原住民級的老師那所以這個因為特別是在國中小的部分就是地方政府在做處理"},{"start":13707.174,"end":13726.747,"text":"那輔教署這邊每年也都會召開會議要求跟督導地方政府就是依照各區就是各個縣市那我們裡面的原住民中年學校裡面的老師的缺額開缺的部分來進行一些督導跟了解"},{"start":13727.467,"end":13742.194,"text":"那我們當然也會希望縣市政府能夠去盤點所有的學校裡面的一些老師的需求那會希望他們透過專主的方式像說原住民專主的方式來做教室甄選或者是說"},{"start":13743.254,"end":13769.713,"text":"用其他加分的方式來做甄選讓我們原住民及老師有更多的機會能夠進到我們的原住民重點學校裡面那另外還有提到就是在我們原住民原鄉裡面的代理老師的部分就是有沒有機會能夠他可以變成經過培訓然後取教師證"},{"start":13770.553,"end":13786.522,"text":"然後成為真正正式的就是國中小的老師那這個部分就是我們了解我們私自私教育部私自私裡面有一個有訂了一個偏遠地區學校學士後教育學分班"},{"start":13787.342,"end":13810.048,"text":"那這個部分裡面可以讓代理老師經過參與這個學分班的培訓之後然後能夠有取教室證的這樣一個機會那依照他們簡章裡面其實看起來是也有分就是一般生跟原名生的身份那只要在他在偏遠地區學校裡面服務的一段時間"},{"start":13810.828,"end":13823.584,"text":"那他就有資格可以來上這個學分班那上完之後經過認證就可以有機會成為取證成為正式老師那另外還有提到"},{"start":13825.117,"end":13852.535,"text":"最後一個是文化老師認證的部分那因為這個文化老師認證他是在原住民主教育法第35條裡面的規定認證辦法由原民會來訂定那所以這個部分如果原民會有相關的一些規範需要教育部、國教署這邊來做協助的那我們也都會共同來做處理那以上其實非常感謝市長們所提出的相關的意見"},{"start":13855.277,"end":13871.998,"text":"持續在整體教育部的政策規劃之下來推動督導跟落實還有精進謝謝各位委員以及各位市長的建議謝謝非常謝謝林副組長我這樣聽起來我們好像還在停留在八年前"},{"start":13873.291,"end":13898.5,"text":"我在教育文化委員會做召委的時候呢當時並沒有在內政您剛剛所推出講的那些政策比如說國中小老師校長的聘用要專主要加分還有代理老師的問題其實這都是我在教育文化委員會的時候我們已經在推動的政策聽起來好像都一直在這幾年當中都沒有有一些推展的推進"},{"start":13899.541,"end":13901.69,"text":"那我相信我聽到的幾個校長們都說"},{"start":13905.071,"end":13930.953,"text":"前八年他們很努力覺得未來是有希望的可是他們現在好想退休我們很遺憾這些曾經在實戰經驗上的校長們因為我們的非常多的政策並沒有再往前走我們以前提出的問題好不容易往前走的一點點好像一直在停留在原部這是他們感到灰心無力的地方所以今天這個公聽會我們也凸顯了這個教育的部分"},{"start":13931.653,"end":13941.617,"text":"我們希望教育部回去了之後在潘前部長的開疆闢土的同時你們能夠接棒然後再解決一些更細微的問題我們已經在教育經費上希望能夠提高3%了那希望在更多的政策上面能夠再突破好不好好謝謝繼續我們來請陳坤生處長"},{"start":13955.043,"end":13980.635,"text":"因為我剛剛也特別一直提到陳處長其實呢陪著我們原住民的校長走過非常多艱辛的路程有非常多的校長的心聲你一定都很清楚包括剛剛有講到文化老師的認證剛剛教育部說只要園民會能夠有一些政策出來他們會全力的支持好我們請陳處長謝謝好謝謝主席各位前輩先進各位部委的代表大家午安"},{"start":13981.38,"end":13991.168,"text":"以下有個人就今天我們幾位先進所提出來有關教育的問題是有關本會執掌的部分來做一個回應"},{"start":13993.209,"end":14013.437,"text":"大概今天有三點要來做報告第一個是大家很關心的民族教育課綱的研定首先要特別謝謝我們泰雅族的一些教育的夥伴們在四年前率先來研定我們泰雅族的民族教育課綱這個課綱目前已經完成了"},{"start":14013.897,"end":14030.675,"text":"那我們檢視到這個整個成果是的確非常豐碩把我們整個泰雅族齊老傳統的各項知識文化把它轉化成孩子們未來可以學習的一個範疇我想這個已經為了其他的民族做一個非常好的使喚"},{"start":14031.576,"end":14059.52,"text":"那我們現在在想的是課綱做了之後我們是不是也能夠來幫忙泰雅族的孩子們就這個課綱來去研定發展那個教材因為課綱做出來之後如果沒有教材那還是沒有辦法在教育的現場上來執行所以我們也跟國教院這期在討論如果把我們現在已經完成的泰雅課綱來把它進一步發展成是我們泰雅的民族教育的教材"},{"start":14060.28,"end":14079.282,"text":"另外其他15組的民主教育課綱的確我們也在規劃我們希望分年開始來執行我們想也是會跟國教院一起來合作把其他的15組的民主教育課綱都能夠完成我想16組的民主教育課綱完成之後我們整個原住民組民主教育的"},{"start":14081.144,"end":14098.799,"text":"進程會往前推進一大步後續的整個課綱教材發展是一個非常龐大的工程我們希望能夠跟未來的知識中心能夠一起來合作我想這是一個我們民族教育的一個非常重要的基礎我相信我們會持續來推動"},{"start":14102.118,"end":14120.733,"text":"看來今天比較好的回應是陳處長第二個是有一些我們都會區的議員很關心的就是我們在都會區的原住民孩子的接受民族文化語言課程的機會的確過去我們在談原住民族教育我們都把重點放在偏鄉"},{"start":14121.454,"end":14146.186,"text":"那其實現在整個隨著人口的遷移我們都會區的原住民的人口數已經超過我們偏鄉了所以我們必須要適時回來思考一下如何來關心都會區的原住民孩子的學習的機會那我想這也是我們這幾年也在思考的問題那剛才國教署的副長有提到就是說其實我們可以"},{"start":14147.026,"end":14166.533,"text":"考慮來跟我們都會區的一些的原住民學母教育學校開始來規劃設置都會區的原住民族的國中小的實驗班那我想最近一個非常好的例子就是我們基隆市的八斗高中的我們原住民的專班"},{"start":14167.353,"end":14186.843,"text":"他們孩子的在語言文化各方面傑出的表現已經得到很多大學的肯定這就學生過去在高中階段是一個5C甚至是5D的孩子結果透過三年在八斗高中的文化語言的學習他們每個孩子都"},{"start":14187.443,"end":14215.182,"text":"用特殊選擇的方式進入到了很多國立的大學很好的科系我想這就是一個我們實驗教育一個非常成功的例子那我們希望現在我們可以思考怎麼樣來跟複製八島高中成功案例在我們的各個都會區的高中 國中開始來推實驗班讓我們孩子也能夠透過接受民主的方式來展開他的自己的學習的理程這是我們未來會積極來做的"},{"start":14217.043,"end":14243.832,"text":"那最後就是大家很關心的原住民族學校的推動那這個原住民族學校的概念其實是107年我們在修原住民族教育法所以有高級委員這邊來提出來的那我們也在思考怎麼樣來建構一個原住民族自主的教育的體系這是我們也是不論諸人藏起來的一個心願那過去的原住民族學校的立法是"},{"start":14246.784,"end":14270.024,"text":"思考是希望人民會來開辦這樣的學校我們在檢討起來發現它其中非常大的困難大概會是財政的問題因為必須要蓋自己的校舍必須要徵聘自己的老師必須要發展自己的課程教材等等各方面還有包括行政的各項資源那是一個首費不支的一個工程"},{"start":14271.385,"end":14285.393,"text":"我們現在想思考是不是可以用另外一個方式同樣能夠達到這樣的一個目標我們思考到就是說我們要應用目前的公立國中小學委託私人辦學條例這樣的一個規定"},{"start":14288.455,"end":14316.546,"text":"來跟我們地方政府的教育局處來合作他們提供他們既有的學校的教師他們各項的教育資源那雲林會來提供額外的經費的課程的開發政治的能力那一起來合作那這個我們已經找到了一個成功的案例在今年的8月1號雲林會即將跟高雄市政府教育局以他們在桃園區的新莊國小合作來成立第一所"},{"start":14317.026,"end":14336.714,"text":"公辦名義的原住民族小學我們在3月份已經簽訂了契約了在8月1號我們會正式成立我想這是一個很好的模式啦而且是一個雙贏的模式讓中正的財政不會那麼壓力那麼大可是讓我們的孩子又可以跳脫我們9年12年課綱這樣的一個規範下的一個學習讓我們可以"},{"start":14341.036,"end":14367.662,"text":"自由彈性的透過語言文化的學習來規劃我們自己的課程這是我們目前就原住民族學校我想到最好的推動的方式我們也歡迎未來也會積極在來協調其他的新政府來推動我們這樣的一個案例讓更多更多的學校都可以轉型而是由原民會跟地方政府合作的這種民族教育的民族學校的建立我想這是一個"},{"start":14368.422,"end":14391.273,"text":"最快也是最有效的一個方式也是對孩子們來講是一個最有保障的一個學習方式那我們會持續再來努力以上我就就差點做一個補充的說明 以上謝謝好 非常謝謝陳組長的一些說明那我們聽到陳組長對於原住民族教育的這個未來的建構跟一些說明我覺得好像要有一點希望的感覺"},{"start":14392.533,"end":14406.402,"text":"雖然我不是在教育文化委員會但是呢請放心我會挪出一點時間對於這個教育的部分我在關心坐在我旁邊的這位我們的專員就是在教育文化委員會陪著我我們走過了很多的路程"},{"start":14407.242,"end":14429.958,"text":"那我想待會我們也花一點時間請那個國教院的主任周惠敏因為剛剛有提到就是我們在四年前的努力麻煩您慢慢走上來的同時我也做些說明就是四年前泰雅族民主教育的部分來 謝謝它可以變成現在我們"},{"start":14430.7,"end":14444.781,"text":"的民族的教材那我想這樣子對於這個未來的課綱我們就會有教本剛剛陳昆稱處長也說會跟你們合作不知道這樣子的一個合作模式會一直在推廣到16族嗎謝謝"},{"start":14449.689,"end":14473.292,"text":"主席各位先進大家好國教院主要的任務在做學術研究、政策研究還包括了教育人才的培育課綱的研發跟教科書的審議的工作原住民族教育研究中心我們在107年正式成立以後我們也針對許多的教育的議題來做研究"},{"start":14474.133,"end":14482.571,"text":"那當然我們也承接了一些來自政府部門的一些補助或者是委辦的這個計畫那泰雅克剛計畫就是其中的一個"},{"start":14483.949,"end":14504.02,"text":"非常感謝在這個過程當中國教院有這個機會來參與這個這麼有意義這麼有價值的這個計畫的執行那當然這個過程當中有非常多的人事物參與在裡面那也謝謝原民會跟國教署在資源上面的支持那國教院這邊主要還是做"},{"start":14505.46,"end":14518.765,"text":"專業跟教育方面的一些支持跟支援過程當中我們大概初步已經完成這個泰雅課綱的草案然後還有泰雅的這個這個素養核心素養"},{"start":14519.605,"end":14538.092,"text":"那包括了剛剛有幾位先進有提到的這個學習內容跟學習表現相關的表冊我們也都交給這個園民會這裡那未來如果園民會這邊有針對未來的這個幾個族群要在課綱上面做發展的話我想我們國教院這裡樂觀其成我們也會積極的來參與跟協助以上"},{"start":14544.452,"end":14554.522,"text":"今天我們還有其他的部會也列席請問一下內政部衛生福利部財政部法務部列席的機關你們有沒有一些要來說明的"},{"start":14555.714,"end":14578.954,"text":"沒有補充說明沒有好那我們就請在場的專家學者你們關號我們第二輪發言是嗎好我們來請這個這個施教授我們大家要上這個洗手間的就可以這樣過去我們就不用暫停時間垃圾時間OK好沒事沒事不是不是不是這樣剛剛到現在已經滿久了我怕大家會變料OK開玩笑"},{"start":14583.197,"end":14597.723,"text":"我剛才提到說其實我要提醒我們今天的角色我記得以前What is Berlin委員會講說以漢治漢也就是說你看喔我們去買車子買房子的時候一定要帶老婆去"},{"start":14599.537,"end":14625.219,"text":"就像我們在野黨今天在做所謂的在看我們的預算的時候呢買軍火的時候呢然後呢怎麼會我們的政府去告洋狀說我們的在野黨在扯後腿呢不是可以剛剛好逼你打折嗎不要拿爛貨嗎趕快交貨嗎所以我想這是我們今天的所以兩位互作第二個我是這樣講說"},{"start":14627.845,"end":14652.345,"text":"剛才高進委員講說我們是回到8年前 錯了16年前我去東華當院長的時候然後教育部有一個就是教育部跟園民會的一個委員會我那種感覺就是講了一大堆我的感覺是什麼呢爹不疼娘不愛孤兒院的院長嫌我們是賠錢貨所以我現在不用東華的名字坦白講是這裡寫我東華的"},{"start":14656.626,"end":14682.631,"text":"所以我退了就退了我回頭講到正點是說我們法律通過我們那個延期法它是基本法它裡面講說三年的日出條款三年的落日條款有沒有違反的要廢修然後我們新的法那我們屠海法自治法為什麼弄那麼多呢基本上它有一個概念它說因為我們有牽涉到很多的部會所以我們就打算這是對的嗎"},{"start":14684.091,"end":14709.482,"text":"因為我們當時就是把所有的業務弄來一個園民會怎麼法律又打散出去的呢然後打散出去的時候就是被各個擊破嘛所以呢小英2015年問我說那為什麼阿扁的時候通不過我說嘲笑也當是第一個問題第二個問題是說我們在行政院跨部會協商的時候呢每一次各個部會派來的人好像是在放假一樣"},{"start":14710.615,"end":14738.432,"text":"有點像WTO談判然後重要觀點的時候說我要回去請示就是這樣所以我就當時就跟小英建議說一定要找一個原住民他兼政務委員我可以看到到目前政務委員裡面大概最趁職的最努力的就是陳其南他會跟他們講我跟你們部長講你不要亂說的啦甚至於我當時還跟小英建議說"},{"start":14740.029,"end":14764.358,"text":"你他跟我講說啊你有沒有原民會主委的我說都可以但是如果要立竿見影的話那就是自治區是最快的國家公園是最快的一定要找三元所以大家有沒有看到今天來的戶口戶然後我們高層委員都是三元布農族嘛那麼強悍的而且那是立竿見影的啊OK"},{"start":14765.071,"end":14783.527,"text":"所以我建議的就是要三元我跟他提了幾個名字但是他偏偏就喜歡用旁邊的站在那邊的那位市議員當了好久好久的主委的那位接著我要講說其實有關於自治區這個部我真的講是"},{"start":14784.554,"end":14810.854,"text":"立竿見影因為那個山園的土地太清楚了幾個大家都在搶著我還記得高金文有一次陪著馬總統去南泰的時候你們在記上講什麼東西你馬上打電話給我說因為那個時候吳敦義那個是行政院長在講說就是不要動到縣市的這個界線然後財源自籌然後提了一個叫做所謂的蜀人式的文化自治有沒有他說那是什麼東西啊"},{"start":14811.454,"end":14838.622,"text":"OK 那我跟他講說我們有聚居的傳統理念很清楚的 那就是屬地嘛然後我們現在屬人的就是在都會區的也可以做嘛而且財源不是問題啊我還記得在民進黨中央黨部那個是智庫的時候他們在做所謂的直轄市財源等等那些東西已經講好我們原住民的自治區就相當於直轄市不管大小就是直轄市財源絕對不是問題而且牽涉到說那個公司是什麼"},{"start":14839.676,"end":14866.602,"text":"我們光是一個秀林鄉的面積就比彰化縣還大我一個台風來的我鄉長要跑全鄉跑得動嗎所以我是覺得說這絕對不是問題我們如果要去看屬地的話看魁北克那邊然後看這個所謂的西邊溫哥華這邊或者是屬人甚至平埔族的中西部那邊土地太多那絕對不是問題啦我只是這樣講我很感慨就是說"},{"start":14870.134,"end":14889.213,"text":"因為小英他不敢去動土地的部分啦他用撒嬌的部分包括促轉會本來應該是放在那個有法源的放在總統府他說放在總統府是位高權重啊我跟你講沒有權力的很高就像在我們搭飛機的時候放在"},{"start":14890.083,"end":14902.676,"text":"你知道嗎 不是在客艙啊 放在貨艙啊三個月讓總統召見以後我不禁想到鍾新池講的皇上英明啊"},{"start":14904.039,"end":14931.679,"text":"不好意思啊皇上的內褲我每天紋三次啊好嗎真的是不好意思我看到他我們原住民的菁英去那邊穿著傳統服裝過去的時候一個一個接見我還以為是回到清朝的時候撫翻院啊太扯了而且是菁英我做的結論我真的講很不高興好不好因為我知道園民會等等都不會找我園民黨我都無所謂的啦好不好我跟你講我覺得原住民裡面呢"},{"start":14933.168,"end":14954.145,"text":"班長太多班長太多我們高經委員可以當答案嗎OK我們有更多的答案好嗎謝謝好非常謝謝請問一下在場的專家學者有沒有想要二人發言的好我們請這個前主委謝謝"},{"start":14964.758,"end":14987.091,"text":"原住民族自治我在第一輪的發言我非常這個鄭重的告訴各位特別是我們立法院跟行政單位原住民自治的連體因就是原住民族的傳統土地權那麼什麼叫做原住民的"},{"start":14995.165,"end":15024.225,"text":"土地權或是傳統土地權很重要的一個概念如果依照世界原住民聯合國所定的世界原住民權利宣言裡面所昭示的精神那就是原住民的傳統土地權你必須要依照原住民主的"},{"start":15025.506,"end":15050.026,"text":"意願跟原住民族的認定來劃定一個非常清楚的範圍然後原住民族有百分之百的權力來做這個土地的運用規劃與發展這個才叫做原住民族的土地權"},{"start":15051.738,"end":15078.581,"text":"那麼另外我也要特別補充說明就是聯合國他所定的世界原住民權利宣言裡面他所提到的原住民傳統領域或者是土地的認知是什麼原住民的這個土地的權利"},{"start":15080.293,"end":15102.705,"text":"應該要包括三個很重要的空間第一個空間就是天空的空間第二個空間就是地面上的空間第三種的這個認知就是地底下的所以我們看到"},{"start":15104.634,"end":15118.476,"text":"貧窮的太魯閣族 雖然他們地底下有挖不完的礦石 水泥礦石有大理石 還有各種的石礦但是我們今天看到太魯閣"},{"start":15120.987,"end":15147.572,"text":"貧窮的狀況但是他們的土地裡面卻擁有非常豐富的資源我就是要提醒我們立法院特別是提醒我們的主席我們所敬愛的這個高委員思考原住民的土地的認知我們就必須按照聯合國世界原住民權利協議的認知謝謝"},{"start":15150.211,"end":15167.973,"text":"非常謝謝Yohannes Kaka全主委的提醒請問一下這場的專家學者有沒有第二輪我們再一次謝謝蘇老師然後還有Yohannes全主委還有慈愛議員你們的堅持都留下來非常謝謝"},{"start":15170.305,"end":15196.763,"text":"好各位長官各位夥伴那因為我們知道就是在108年之後呢的10年我們應該這個原住民學校的原住民老師的比例就是不得低於35%或者是要符合那個學校原住民學生的比例而且是以高的那個為標準好如果說原住民學生比例到40%那老師也應該要到40%"},{"start":15200.645,"end":15214.775,"text":"那另外就是在國高中這個部分就是就不得低於5%可是以我學校來講我自己是一個原住民很偏遠的一個學校那我是一個極偏的學校在我的學校我是必須靠"},{"start":15216.396,"end":15232.685,"text":"帶課老師因為我的帶課老師都是以我們自己部落返鄉的青年然後符合這個帶課資格的孩子為主就成為我們學校帶課老師所以如果說連偏鄉的學校都是這樣的一個窘境那距離118年"},{"start":15235.386,"end":15251.539,"text":"還剩三年我不知道是不是我們的教育部是不是有做一個這樣的一個盤點未來的三年之內原住民重點學校或是原住民地區的學校有可能符合這樣的一個比例嗎那如果不能符合這樣的一個比例我們應該怎麼做這樣 謝謝"},{"start":15255.593,"end":15272.189,"text":"非常謝謝蘇美君校長的這個提醒那希望教育部回去了之後呢還有我們的處長我們一樣我們再把原住民族的學校的待課老師的問題來解決一下因為有非常多的待課老師其實呢他已經在原鄉地區"},{"start":15272.91,"end":15294.77,"text":"呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":15298.459,"end":15316.279,"text":"謝謝主席那慈愛要在這邊跟大家討論新竹市目前碰到的兩個問題那目前我們新竹市有一個比較根本的問題要先解決就是我們新竹市原住民的專責單位目前只是一個處下裡面的一個科叫做原住民事務科"},{"start":15318.001,"end":15341.894,"text":"都市人民議題真的非常的廣包括這個民政社會教育勞工文化產業跟住宅那再來未來我們的民意代表的這個席次也會翻倍就是多了一個三元然後我平原這樣各一席代表我們的服務量能會變大那監督的力量也會大那也代表族群的期許也會變得提高"},{"start":15343.174,"end":15369.522,"text":"所以只有一個單一科室來承接這樣的一個服務很難有這個話語權跟這個決策權所以很難做到這個跨局處的整合建議中央在法制上鼓勵地方政府設置更高層級的原民專責單位提高這個預算跟人力橫向的協調力再來第二個問題就是這個地方政府的責任跟中央補助機制的這兩個問題"},{"start":15371.182,"end":15399.579,"text":"我們現在新竹市設為一個一級城市很多中央補助的款項已經較去年減少有百分之現在大概只有拿到百分之三十啦所以非常的少那這個中央補助是這個經費打折 再打折所以在這個都市原住民的政策裡面呢是不是要明定這個地方政府的責任跟中央補助機制的這個要讓它作為一個明定的規定喔以上 謝謝"},{"start":15401.371,"end":15407.795,"text":"非常謝謝池塘議員的提醒我們呢就請問一下米原律師長你有沒有二輪發言沒有好"},{"start":15411.609,"end":15437.626,"text":"非常感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見然後所有列席人員的發言跟提供書面資料還有專家學者我們比利亞部因為父親急急送醫院所以他今天沒有辦法出席他提的書面資料我們除了刊登公報之外呢我們會另外的製作公聽會的報告送交本院的全體委員以及所有出列席的人員的參考"},{"start":15438.707,"end":15455.373,"text":"然後園民會的副主委剛剛也非常的貼心就是說今天各位專家學姐提出的意見他還會列為一個書面然後來跟回應大家好嗎然後非常的感謝各位的參與非常的謝謝大家辛苦了現在我們就會議結束現在散會謝謝"},{"start":15467.091,"end":15468.173,"text":"感謝 感謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}