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第二項國防部所屬不喊第十目"},{"start":1956.969,"end":1963.674,"text":"國防支出機密計劃及第12目科學支出機密計劃原列5342億2997萬4千元除第7目非營業特種基金13億3947萬4千元暫照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定在行調整外檢列"},{"start":1975.855,"end":1987.979,"text":"第一幕軍事行政1750萬元一海軍司令部實證作業業務費支一般數費1000萬元二憲兵指揮部效益評估作業中業務費支軍事裝備及設施200萬元三支通電軍指揮部效益評估作業50萬元是軍醫局軍事醫療作業中設備及投資資訊軟硬體設備費500萬元二第三幕教育訓練業務4600萬元一陸軍司令部訓練綜合"},{"start":2003.443,"end":2015.531,"text":"綜合作業中業務費之軍事裝備及設施一千萬元二海軍司令部教育行政中業務費之國內旅費一百萬元三全民防衛動員署動員整備兩千兩百萬元含業務費之國外旅費兩百萬元及設備及投資資訊軟硬體設備費兩千萬元四參謀本部作戰綜合作業中業務費一千三百萬元含教育訓練費三百萬元軍事裝備及設施一百萬元一般事務費九百萬元"},{"start":2032.819,"end":2036.444,"text":"關五三第四幕後勤及通知業務3億7275萬7千元一路軍事令部1億8248萬2千元"},{"start":2042.076,"end":2046.92,"text":"一 運輸作業支 業務費600萬元 含國內旅費100萬元 運費500萬元二 通信電子與資訊管理中業務費支 軍事裝備設施養護費427萬7千元三 軍事單位裝備零附件構置及保修中業務費支 軍事裝備及設施1億600萬元其中 無人機防禦系統 視頻干擾槍 裝備維護 偽製案 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國家中生科學研究院納入115"},{"start":2141.946,"end":2150.733,"text":"至119年度執行全案檢列1875萬元115年度檢列375萬元5後勤補給資源中設備及投資之雜項設備費2000萬元2海軍司令部3980萬元1通信電子與資訊管理之中業務費之通訊費500萬元2後勤補給資源中設備及投資3480萬元3空軍司令部3850萬元1運輸作業中設備及投資雜項設備費50萬元"},{"start":2172.848,"end":2176.029,"text":"通信電子資訊管理中業務費2800萬元含通訊費800萬元資訊服務費2000萬元及設備及投資中資訊軟體設備費1000萬元是憲兵指揮部後勤補給支援中業務費1700萬元含一般數費300萬元及"},{"start":2189.555,"end":2193.278,"text":"防護建築養護費1400萬元無自動電軍指揮部2155萬元一後勤綜合勤務中業務費自物品80萬元二通信電子與資訊管理2075萬元一業務費2050萬元含資訊"},{"start":2205.569,"end":2226.255,"text":"服務費一千萬元軍事裝備及設施三百五十萬元軍事裝備設施養物費七百萬元二設備及投資中雜項設備費二十五萬元六軍醫局軍事單位裝備零附件構置及保修中業務費資軍事裝備設施養物費一千零五十萬元七全民防衛動員署後勤補給資源四千五百萬元含業務費資物品兩千萬元設備及投資之雜項設備費兩千五百萬元"},{"start":2231.677,"end":2243.301,"text":"8.参谋本部通信电子与资讯管理中资业务费800万元含资讯服务费200万元及设备及投资资讯软硬体设备费100万元9."},{"start":2243.301,"end":2244.662,"text":"电讯发展是892万5000元1."},{"start":2244.662,"end":2245.082,"text":"设施修设"},{"start":2248.383,"end":2251.786,"text":"設施修繕維護與管理之業務費848萬元含房屋建築養護費698萬元設施及機械設備養護費150萬元而軍事單位裝備零附件固製及保修中業務費之設施及機械設備養護費是145,000元"},{"start":2267,"end":2271.766,"text":"4.第五幕一般裝備4500萬元1.陸軍司令部高空滲透跳傘訓練模擬器規劃於115至117年度執行全案檢列2億元115年度檢列3000萬元2.空軍司令部屏東基地ILSE"},{"start":2284.147,"end":2295.574,"text":"一降系統換裝案400萬元三 憲兵指揮部憲兵勤務頭盔整備800萬元四 政治作戰局之戰戰裝備之戰時及救災採防裝備汰換300萬元五 第六幕軍事人員陸軍司令部主婦時與口糧中業務費至一般事務費2000萬元"},{"start":2306.801,"end":2329.329,"text":"六 第八幕一般建築及設備四千零九十三萬三千元一陸軍司令部第二節引進工程中設備訓練設施工程八百一十六萬三千元含輕兵器靶場興建工程先期規劃案兩百三十四萬兩千元及京湯營區後備訓練訓場整建先期規劃案五百八十二萬一千元"},{"start":2330.912,"end":2335.959,"text":"2.軍醫局第四節其他設備向下醫療設備2247萬元1.設備及投資,值機械設備費2000萬元2.提升戰備醫療能量設備整備中設備及投資,值機械設備費247萬元"},{"start":2348.399,"end":2353.105,"text":"三國防大學第四節其他設備中軍事教育設備之115至119年度充實學校教育設備是500萬元四參謀本部第三節交通及運輸設備40萬元五電訊發展是第四節其他設備中一般資訊及"},{"start":2367.369,"end":2373.714,"text":"一般資訊及資訊站設備之結訊網路資訊設備及作業系統升級案490萬元其第13目環保業務參謀本部環保設施維護中業務費之一般書費500萬元以上共計減列5億4719萬元科目均自行調整區域均造列改列為"},{"start":2389.785,"end":2414.737,"text":"五千三百三十六亿八千两百七十八万四千元本项提案十八案保留送院会处理本项通过决议两百五十项二机密部分审查结果密略三一百一十五年度中央政府总预算案关于国防部主管收支公开及机密部分关乎不安国家安全局部分审查完据审查结果送财政委员会会诊后提报院会"},{"start":2415.417,"end":2435.367,"text":"需交由黨團協商運會討論時由陳昭吉委員冠廷出席說明4.本次預算審查如有預算科目金額或文字物質授權議事人員調整6月3日討論事項繼續審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分處理"},{"start":2436.908,"end":2462.309,"text":"決議一公開部分審查結果稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第79項國防部所屬國家安全局部分998,000元照列第三款歸費收入第65項國防部所屬國家安全局部分173,000元照列第四款財產收入第89項國防部所屬國家安全局部分136,000元照列第七款其他收入第88項國防部所屬國家安全局部分8772,000元照列"},{"start":2464.671,"end":2489.032,"text":"稅出部分第九款第二項國防部所屬國家安全局部分第二幕情報行政關五部含機密部分原列十一億六千七百七十六萬七千元簡列一行政管理四百六十萬元一業務費三百一十萬元含資訊服務費一百萬元保險費一百萬元一般事務費十萬元及設施及機械設備養護費一百萬元二設備及投資一百五十萬元含"},{"start":2489.833,"end":2494.198,"text":"資訊軟硬體設備費50萬元雜項設備費100萬元情報教育訓練中業務費至一般事務費50萬元以上工具檢列510萬元科目軍自行調整其餘軍造列改列為11億6266萬7千元本項通過決議48項"},{"start":2509.513,"end":2534.509,"text":"2.機密部分審查結果密略3.115年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分審查完均審查結果送財政委員會會審後提報院會不需交由黨團協商院會討論時有陳召集委員慣提出席說明是本次預算審查如有預算科目金額或文字物質措權意識人員調整宣讀完畢"},{"start":2540.348,"end":2552.756,"text":"我們現在請問在場委員對於上次非議事錄有無遺漏或錯誤需要更正之處好沒有那我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":2561.582,"end":2571.549,"text":"報告事項 邀請國防部部長顧立祥報告國軍老舅主要裝備汰除騎乘與戰力銜接配套規劃並被質詢 宣讀完畢好 謝謝我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員許巧欣許委員羅美玲羅委員"},{"start":2590.953,"end":2605.703,"text":"以及我們今天國防部列席所有相關的列席名單國防部顧立雄顧部長副總長執行官黃志偉黃上將曹次長陳文新陳長次全民防衛動員署廖建新廖署長"},{"start":2619.149,"end":2640.301,"text":"總督察長是盧建忠總督察長石文龍石參事政務辦公室孫立芳孫主任政治作戰局史順文史局長軍備局林文祥林局長主計局謝祺賢謝局長軍醫局陳元浩陳局長"},{"start":2646.116,"end":2670.447,"text":"戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長資源規劃司藍靜婷藍司長法律事務司吳益聖吳司長整合評估司史其良史副司長國防採購是趙雅萍趙主任人事參謀次長是王志輝王次長"},{"start":2672.318,"end":2691.032,"text":"情報參謀次長是謝日生謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長"},{"start":2702.486,"end":2712.448,"text":"海軍司令部朱惠民參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛淵權薛參謀長憲兵指揮部張純志張參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤參謀長自動電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長"},{"start":2729.87,"end":2745.199,"text":"軍事情報局李永康李執行長電訊發展室吳永延吳副主任國防大學李承忠李教育長國家中山科學研究院李士強李院長"},{"start":2751.67,"end":2760.312,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告國軍老舊主要裝備太圖騎乘與戰力銜接配套規劃並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告各位委員先進今天應邀到大院委員會進行國軍老舊"},{"start":2781.343,"end":2802.362,"text":"主要將被太祖啟程與戰力銜接配套計畫專案報告,成為各委員對國安安全的關切與指導,在此表達誠摯的謝意因應中共威脅與日劇爭,本部與未來敵情威脅、科技發展、戰爭形態與作案場景等因素"},{"start":2804.036,"end":2826.411,"text":"考量全班需求,並全面盤點國軍接受其主要裝備在確保戰力未有間隙的前提下,精準規劃太築氣程並全力強化新型戰力配套,以建立艱鉅、機動、精準、致命之不對稱持久戰力"},{"start":2827.662,"end":2839.98,"text":"接續由作戰及計畫次長侯家倫中將就國軍老舊主要裝備太竹騎乘與戰力銜接配套規劃向各位委員實施報告,謝謝"},{"start":2849.943,"end":2878.485,"text":"主席各位先進大家早接續實施專案報告一前言近年中共持續擴張軍事能力積極發展遠程軍人打擊無人作戰系統及聯合作戰能力台海安全情勢日益嚴峻面對敵情威脅快速變化及武器裝備科技發展趨勢本部除持續籌獲新式武器裝備外亦同步檢討接受其主要裝備汰除與戰力轉型工作"},{"start":2879.446,"end":2879.666,"text":"2.現況分析"},{"start":2898.528,"end":2913.283,"text":"隨著部分主要武器裝備系統服役年限逐漸增加衍生妥善率下降維修與維持成本增加原廠停產或零附件取得困難系統性能難以滿足現代聯合作戰需求"},{"start":2914.42,"end":2943.119,"text":"無法充分因應無人化、智慧化與精準化作戰,及資訊鏈接與網路化作戰能力不足等問題。本部依建軍規劃及戰力整建需求,以規劃逐步檢討汰換部分服役年限較長之戰甲車、火炮系統、艦艇與後行支援艦、部分防空、雷達與通信裝備及效能不符作戰需求的武器系統,以適應未來作戰環境。"},{"start":2945.27,"end":2945.29,"text":"三"},{"start":2946.925,"end":2975.765,"text":"裝備獲得以太儲管理原則國軍於防衛作戰構想逐年修訂聯合戰力規劃要項完成25年長期規劃省政評估手續裝備另依國防財力循五年兵力整建計劃建案執行裝備接替換裝作業武器裝備於建案作區文件中已訂定使用年限各式裝備於介售前應重新評估戰場時需採取性能提升"},{"start":2976.905,"end":3003.313,"text":"構改或延售等方案以符合作戰部署運用於接受裝備經檢討不符作戰時需使用效益不彰或修復成本過高者則納列汰除四、裝備汰除整體規劃為維持國軍主戰兵力規模與結構三軍就有削弱戰略、組織變裝調整、新式武器獲得其成及裝備消失性傷源、維保不應等面向"},{"start":3004.513,"end":3014.143,"text":"檢討太祖老舊無效武器裝備,非將國防資源集中運用於主戰部隊,決約國防維持預算,及補保作業人員負荷。"},{"start":3015.168,"end":3027.751,"text":"本部已於115年4月24日另頒主戰裝備汰除整體規劃,要求各軍種司令部管制接替建案貨裝進程,與主戰裝備結戰,處理作業,以加速作戰部隊轉型,並確保新舊裝備銜接期間戰略務下系。"},{"start":3036.506,"end":3054.374,"text":"5.戰力階梯整體規劃本部推動裝備汰除與新式戰力建構主要依循分批接裝、逐步換裝、國防自主與多元籌貨併進及建構低成本、效能高、數量多、存貨率高之不對稱戰力等三原則"},{"start":3055.994,"end":3074.579,"text":"陸軍方面,貫徹新舊戰力雙軌銜接的原則,規劃太俗已接受其戰甲車及火炮等裝備,並籌購海馬式多管火箭系統、新式戰車、自走炮、新型八輪甲車、托式2V反裝甲飛彈系統及各式無人載具等新興階梯戰力,"},{"start":3075.859,"end":3094.133,"text":"未來將透過無人機協同徵收與攻擊精準火力運用強化探案牽敵、城鎮眾生整體防衛能力海軍方面持續強化濱海打擊及海上巡域護航任務能力部分服役年限較長之巡防艦、巡邏艦及後勤支援艦"},{"start":3095.974,"end":3113.1,"text":"將配合輕型平防艦、作戰艦、反艦飛彈、布雷及無人艇機等籌貨逐步辦理艦艇、航空、陸戰隊等裝備汰除與兵力結構調整藉由海空聯合作戰及機動飛彈部署強化整體制海反登陸戰力"},{"start":3114.44,"end":3138.49,"text":"空軍方面,以建立高韌性多層次整體防控能力為核心,持續換裝F-16VBROC 拐動型機及籌貨無人機,並強化防空、預警與遠距偵測打擊能力,持續籌貨愛國者、天宮及NASA等各類反彈及防空武器系統,服役戰場管理系統,鏈接各式雷達感測器與發射器、建構、"},{"start":3141.104,"end":3157.897,"text":"分層防禦、有效攔截、高度感知的台灣之盾,以提升整體防控能量。6、戰力銜接配套措施,推動裝備汰除與戰力轉型,涵蓋人員後勤、訓練及產業之系統性工程,相關配套措施如下。"},{"start":3159.999,"end":3177.432,"text":"1.裝備換裝以嚴肅機制採分批接裝逐步換裝方式接裝部隊需完成作戰測評系統整合測試及完成戰備驗證後使逐步辦理救世裝備除役維持既有戰備能力避免戰力下行2.人員培訓與換裝整備"},{"start":3179.173,"end":3189.203,"text":"依裝備採購規劃期程與借裝前完成總指教官培訓引進地面模擬器與戰術模擬系統縮短換裝時程採新舊裝備並行訓練模式並結合漢光演習等聯合作戰演訓驗證新裝備戰術運用"},{"start":3198.652,"end":3223.912,"text":"3.後勤維保與供應鏈建構,於裝備獲得前及同步規劃維修廠設施、維保技術文件及專業人員培訓,建立關鍵零附件安全存量及戰備庫存制度,令考量近年國際供應鏈受地緣政治戰爭影響,部分關鍵零組件、晶片、炸藥及軍用物料取得難度增加,將持續推動國防自主政策。"},{"start":3225.151,"end":3249.64,"text":"建立國內維修產制及關鍵零組件自主供應能力降低對外依賴程度以提升暫時後勤資源與供應韌性四 聯合作戰資管整合各項外購與國產新式裝備均納入聯合作戰指揮管制系統完成資料鏈路及情資共享整合令透過實兵實裝及實戰驗證以縮短作戰決策防攻接戰及"},{"start":3255.262,"end":3275.073,"text":"擊殺鏈反應時間,並強化整體後勤資源任性5.預算資源與專案管理,透過近、中、遠程建軍規劃與年度預算相互配合建立重大專案進度管制及風險管理機制,並預留過度期維保與延售經費以因應國際局勢變動,對我戰力促進之影響"},{"start":3279.734,"end":3300.062,"text":"7.未來國軍將依分批接裝、逐步換裝、新舊戰力雙軌銜接原則,透過裝備換新、國防自主發展、聯合作戰整合、後勤徵性建構及持久作戰能力強化等措施,逐步完成裝備更新與戰力轉型。敬請各位委員先進給予支持與指導。報告完畢。"},{"start":3306.445,"end":3321.281,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":3333.558,"end":3337.459,"text":"謝謝昭緯那我們是不是有請顧立雄顧部長有請顧部長是 序位部長我想首先請問您昭緯今天排今天這樣子的一個議題活軍老舊主要裝備太初啟程與戰力銜接配套規劃那您覺得他做這樣子的一個主題那是有什麼大家關心的事情所以排嗎"},{"start":3363.532,"end":3369.305,"text":"我想就這個題目來講,主要是就所有的國軍老舊的主要裝備的"},{"start":3373.038,"end":3395.427,"text":"在上個禮拜的時候其實民眾最關心的是這個T34C的失事事件那我非常非常意外這是失事之後您第一次到立法院報告剛才的報告也好或者是我們得到的書面報告也好完全沒有提到這件事情請問可不可以簡短說明一下為什麼"},{"start":3397.575,"end":3422.702,"text":"我剛已經說明了因為這個是整體的一個報告案所以我們是就整體的這些報告那整體的不包含T30C它不在這個整體的範圍之內我想也會是在我們整體的也會在裡面但是不管在剛才的口頭報告或在書面報告裡面都完全沒有提到的理由到底是什麼因為我們不會就個別的案項"},{"start":3423.382,"end":3451.354,"text":"是啊它不是一個個別的案項但它在整體當中連一句話的機會都沒有為什麼呀我想我們大概就是你還笑得出來喔我們還是就整體的戰力的這個解體的這個做一個做一個整體的說明做一個整體的說明那請問一下T34C這樣的一個失事案件到現在那不需要說明嗎可以說明嗎"},{"start":3452.718,"end":3477.807,"text":"我想可以跟委員說明我們現在就是確定我們會在明年的5月底完成建案那117年如果能夠豁付預算我們就開始進行籌購我要講一下就是說我們近期的軍機事故可以說是非常的多我們從2020年看到現在來講的話6年摔了14台然後呢這個有20位的官兵殉職"},{"start":3478.907,"end":3502.055,"text":"這樣子的一個狀況其實讓外界都非常的這個焦慮那現在是連出教機都已經從過去到現在有多次的這樣的一個失事的情況那我想問一下T34C雖然它還在全售期不過也已經服役超過40個年頭了時間相當的長那目前現役的數量 價數以及從過去1985年我們引進到現在損毀的價數分別是多少"},{"start":3507.368,"end":3509.471,"text":"我的了解是現在應該還有32架因為我們當時貨裝是在174那從76年開始就有14個事件的發生"},{"start":3528.177,"end":3550.479,"text":"從76年到最近的這一次那加起來應該是12次12次所以在12次的過程當中有沒有立法委員曾經公開的提出說因為T34C它沒有而且也不適合換彈射椅那所以呢希望國防部能夠緊抓這個預算能夠來汰換的這樣的一個過程在先前"},{"start":3551.624,"end":3579.52,"text":"我們出交機的部分應該是在民國74年貨裝了那確實在當時就出交機的部分並沒有這個是的我沒有我剛剛問的問題你沒有聽清楚我問的問題是在過去的這段時間裡面有沒有立法委員向國防部正式的提出來希望能夠汰換T34這樣子的一個速度跟進程能夠加速有沒有"},{"start":3580.202,"end":3604.267,"text":"因為我剛剛已經跟委員報告了我們現在有規劃嘛那之前的話我想T34沒有彈射座椅因為它沒有辦法裝嘛但是我想整個的裝備的妥善率都還是有維持住而且所有的機體的結構我們都也有透過相關的檢修來確認這個機體的結構是符合安全的12架嘛對不對"},{"start":3609.853,"end":3634.954,"text":"這些年以來?十四迄今,從民國七十六年迄今迄今是十二架,十二架的T34C損毀所以我們可以看到,其實像民進黨有一些立法委員他們在十一年前就開了記者會,提到希望能夠汰換甚至講到就是說,如果不換的話,他等於是蓄意殺人,這個不是我講的"},{"start":3635.715,"end":3663.132,"text":"這是11年前劉建國委員他們所開的記者會他當初就提到了中華民國空軍T-34C的失事記錄一覽表當初也是談到了因為我們當時買的T-34C它是沒有彈射座椅的所以我要請問一下他當時就在問我們要規劃到民國幾年那可不可以把您剛剛講的要建案接下來我們要建案的整個過程再重新的向我們社會大眾做一個完整的描述好嗎"},{"start":3664.008,"end":3685.526,"text":"我們現在是規劃就是在明年5月31號以前完成這個建案的程序所以今年會放入我們下半年要審的預算應該是117年來獲付預算117年來放入預算對 116年的5月31號以前完成建案程序"},{"start":3686.947,"end":3708.079,"text":"所以我從頭講講116年5月31號以前完成我們的建案程序然後預算納入117年的對 我們會納入117年的預算獲付的就是我們8月底會提出預算是的 117年的"},{"start":3708.439,"end":3730.059,"text":"那就是110年提出117年的預算是117年然後我們提出預算好既然要有這樣的一個規劃提出預算現在大家在問的事情就是我們要選擇外購或者是製造好國際國造繼續進行還是我們要像比如像日本他們可能去買這個T7啊這個從T7買到T6這樣子的一個規劃在"},{"start":3735.463,"end":3762.245,"text":"兩者之間外購跟國建國造當中國防部目前的規劃是如何的我現在請空軍秉持專業現在做個評估我以為你要回答我現在只是要做個評估我剛剛以為你要回答我我們相關的這個可能的方案我們做一個評估提出一個試卸的籌過的策略那明年的5月31號以前會定案"},{"start":3762.705,"end":3782.584,"text":"所以要等一直要等到明年的5月31號我們才要知道說到底是要國機國造還是要外購是這樣子啦我想這個部分我們就尊重現在空軍的一個專業的不過問題是我為什麼要拿這個11年前的事情來講就是當初劉建國委員還包括好幾位委員我就不一一點名了"},{"start":3783.044,"end":3804.09,"text":"他们其实开过记者会就向我们的军方提出说T34C的规划要提早来规划而我们在立法院里面也得到了报告提到2033年要汰换如果我们往前推算的话我们来看一下往前推算的话2033如果我们要陆续处理基本上2030年我们要接装要训练"},{"start":3805.03,"end":3827.664,"text":"飛行員2029年最起碼你要來交機2023年你其實就應該要發佈需求書了這是日本的規劃有一部分是如此的但我拿台灣的回來講2033年這個數字是當初你們報給立法院的回推回來的話2029年要交機其實說真的你講回推回來的話"},{"start":3829.205,"end":3836.772,"text":"現在已經還蠻晚的了所以如果到現在因為這個事情不是今天大家在討論說T34G要不要汰換什麼時候要汰換那你從我剛剛講的11年前的記者會到現在這麼久了"},{"start":3844.699,"end":3848.582,"text":"那都沒有規劃討論出來說我們到底是要選國機國造還是說我們要選要對外採購還要等到明年的五月才要告訴大家這樣子真的對嗎為什麼要做這樣子這麼緩慢的一個評估呢"},{"start":3861.77,"end":3885.436,"text":"我想我們那個接受期的時間當然現在第一架接受期應該是民國121年所以我們107年獲物費之後我們如果能夠在119或120年獲得我想我們就可以進行一個但是問題是你的方向沒有定出來嘛我今天沒有叫你說我明天就要拿到飛機我不是這個意思都按照你們的建軍計畫來做"},{"start":3887.136,"end":3902.625,"text":"但問題是今天我們想要確定的是既然2033年要陸續的除役那我們倒推回來看現在也應該已經到了做決定的時候那當我現在在這裡請教您我們的規劃是要選擇國機國造還是要選擇我們要外購的時候您告訴我我以為您要說要請空軍來做說明結果沒想到您講的是說要評估明年五月的時候再告訴我們"},{"start":3914.312,"end":3928.438,"text":"那中間的過程當中那不是讓很多的民眾也好我們的非官也好都很焦急嗎所以我擔心的是這個點啊我們看一下當初F-51失事非官的時候一位朱媽媽"},{"start":3929.858,"end":3935.962,"text":"他很痛心的提醒他那時候是講的是F5啦但是呢他講的事情其實是告訴我們說這個很多早晚會出問題他不希望我們的國防部不希望我們的國軍空軍把這些飛行員當成免洗塊他覺得今天有一架失事了那是不是你們就想著後面反正還有其他的飛行員所以沒有關係這是朱媽媽當時的說法朱媽媽非常非常遺憾的看到了"},{"start":3959.275,"end":3980.653,"text":"在T34C發生了事故之後我們的第一次國防部來到立法院的專案報告裡面竟然沒有對這件事情有做提及有做表達好再來最後我想要問一下有關於新博弈飛官當時的最後調查結果兩個月以前的新聞寫說要把黑盒子送去判讀請問現在目前的進度狀況結果如何"},{"start":3984.016,"end":4006.355,"text":"新博弈非關後來找到了嗎?沒有找到的話原因是什麼?我們停止了嗎?我想第一個部分是就那個資料的這個延期的部分就黑盒子的部分有一個延期的出來出來但是那個還要做一個綜合判斷所以美方這部分的綜合判斷我們希望他們能夠儘速加快"},{"start":4006.795,"end":4033.376,"text":"到什麼時候 你們有沒有一個你每次講的進速加快 但我想問的事情是那我們要什麼時候能夠得到一個結果嗎這個事情也等好久啦相關的過程當中 雙方來來往往他們都會有要求提供我們一些相關的資料那我們也提供了那最後一次我們提供的一個相關的資料在5月22號那現在有關那個整個的比對分析我們"},{"start":4034.797,"end":4057.591,"text":"有在6月5號有在詢問美方進度我們希望他們當然能夠儘管但是美方那邊還沒有給我們一個最後確切的日期所以請問一下我們的評估我們要到什麼時候才能把這個黑盒子的後續判讀以及整起當時辛飛關他的這個事件對國人社會做一個全面性最終的一個報告"},{"start":4059.5,"end":4085.501,"text":"我現在確實沒辦法給委員一個確切日期那我們會跟美方來盡速聯繫然後來早日來確定早日確定當然是好的但是每一次問每一次沒有一個進度的時候這也是讓大家最後很失望的所以最後一點點時間可不可以請部長針對T34C的部分有什麼要跟國人做報告的還有我們的這些非官以及非官的家屬說的一點點的時間可以回應一下嗎"},{"start":4086.397,"end":4100.355,"text":"我想發生這樣的事情當然我們都感到非常的這個不捨跟痛心那我們都我們會確保這個有關相關的這些"},{"start":4104.456,"end":4129.113,"text":"所有的任何的失事案件最後都會有一些相關的測定作為我們都會來努力來檢討那你們目前檢討的測定作為又是什麼呢沒有看到啊我們現在相關內部都會啟動一個天安的一個檢測嘛那相關其他非關的這些應該有的辛苦還有關於一個考全軍的檢測"},{"start":4132.296,"end":4143.886,"text":"會計的檢測人員的重新的訓練等等我們都有在進行當中那除了這樣子的很日常的一個所謂的沒有太大的改變嘛就你們今天講說你們要檢討那我要有很具體的改變啊"},{"start":4149.031,"end":4165.833,"text":"你只講到了飛機要檢測那當然要檢測啊難道不檢測嗎人員要訓練當然要訓練啊難道不訓練嗎我問的是在T34C之後你除了遺憾跟不捨之外這個國人都遺憾跟不捨可是我們要聽到的是國防部的具體策進方向"},{"start":4167.364,"end":4178.745,"text":"我們就所有事事之後,我們相關的這些作為都有它一定的一個程序這些相關的細節程序如果委員要了解,我們是不是請參謀長來說明一下"},{"start":4180.134,"end":4208.133,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長跟您做個簡單的報告除了剛您提到的天安特檢這是最基本的那我們針對所有全軍的飛機也同時做相關系統的一個發布提醒各單位針對人員的部分機械的部分我們也同步在進行做一個檢視人員的部分尤其是雙座機的部分組員資源管理以及文化的部分我們這個部分也持續的在各部隊做一個加強教育"},{"start":4209.514,"end":4236.755,"text":"那至於細節的部分就是他們操作細節的部分這個我們針對各機種針對科目高風險科目的部分也同步做一個檢討那以上那最後我要提一件事情就是呢在當天的這個失事之後的記者會上面我們的國軍同仁在面對媒體提問的時候那因為這一位失事的這個教官他曾經有講過就是我不管他是開玩笑會如何的他曾經講過說開這個T34就像在玩命一樣"},{"start":4240.337,"end":4267.748,"text":"那當然是他的說法可是我們國防部這邊在回應這個問題的時候竟然講到說我們都沒有蒐集到這樣的意見那是他個人的看法他個人的看法難道不重要嗎他個人難道不是我們空軍體系的其中一員嗎如果你們能夠重視他的意見就不會在記者會做這樣的表達我個人在新聞上看到這樣的回覆的時候其實我很難過然後我也覺得這樣的回答是相當冷血的"},{"start":4268.228,"end":4276.673,"text":"所以我很希望未來 我相信沒有惡意但是我希望未來在這樣 我當然不希望還有失事的情況發生但我希望在未來任何事件 我們在回應媒體在回應國人的時候 能夠多一點溫度而不是當一個失事的非官 曾經他真的在網路上也好 他表達過他的個人意見"},{"start":4291.381,"end":4296.544,"text":"結果呢 這個個人意見你們過程當中沒有收到等到他失事以後被問到了你才說我們都沒有收過這個意見那只是他個人的看法他個人的看法也很重要因為他就是非官 他就是教官好嗎所以我希望T34C的部分今天時間也不是很夠希望能夠對國人能夠提出確切的檢討"},{"start":4314.492,"end":4334.919,"text":"還有呢測定的作為以及失事之後我們的整體的調查報告跟狀況不只是T34C的還包含很多已經隔了一陣子有些人已經忘記新博弈非官的事情但我還記得所以我希望無論是黑盒子也好新博弈非官他的這個打撈的作業已經停止了嘛對吧"},{"start":4336.488,"end":4356.811,"text":"好 停止了 什麼時候停止可以再跟我們說明一下嗎因為停止的時候沒有特別聽到你們提及因為我們相關就是黑盒子在3月16號的時候我們已經撈起來3月18號送美元場那它的飛行資料紀錄器也同步地打撈上來所以關鍵性的這個資料都已經打撈上來經評估之後好 所以人找不到了嗎"},{"start":4357.372,"end":4376.858,"text":"可以這麼說 非常遺憾 相關的那些殘骸我們在附近都有在做過搜尋那時候也打撈出相關的殘骸但很不幸的並沒有發現到遺體那希望未來失事的事情能夠不要再發生 謝謝那我們所有的機體都會來進行檢查然後機體的狀況會做評估這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":4392.655,"end":4394.176,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長委員好"},{"start":4404.188,"end":4422.936,"text":"部長早安對於上個禮拜所發生的T34C的非安事故我想朝野的委員都非常的關心那我想請教一下事發到現在已經一個禮拜了我們因為他並當初這部T34C教練機他當初的設計並沒有設置這個"},{"start":4431.059,"end":4455.458,"text":"設計這個黑盒子的設置所以我想了解一下已經一個禮拜了我們有一個初步的調查結果出來嗎我想我們實質調查必須是嚴謹而且整滅所以我們就那邊的這個一個專案小組我們成立一個專案小組那邊的這個包括民航局運航會還有專家學者我們會來"},{"start":4458.094,"end":4477.569,"text":"審慎的來執行,包括私事集體的重建、殘骸辨識的分析還有人員的訪談等等,我們收錄梗序來收整相關的資訊來做分析OK,那我們現在這部734C因為它沒有黑盒子,會不會造成調查的困難?我想我們會就剛剛所講的這些"},{"start":4486.23,"end":4499.007,"text":"執行的這些程序,我們會盡量來釐清事實因為這些都是可以來做一些交叉分析比對,那我們來找出一個確確的噪音"},{"start":4499.781,"end":4518.676,"text":"所以目前為止的話還是不曉得事故的原因是什麼嗎?T-34C這個初級教練機其實就是在1985年的時候我們從美國引進來到現在已經超過40年了剛剛有提到說總共引進了多少架我印象中就是45架嘛其實41年來40還是45?44到底是幾架?"},{"start":4529.588,"end":4544.817,"text":"44架然後從1985年到現在剛剛部長有講說第一起的這個事故是發生在民國76年一直到現在其實是發生了13起的非安事故可是我們只損了12位的飛官"},{"start":4547.498,"end":4574.948,"text":"我看到的是 我看到的資料是12起那我不曉得 我看到的是12起非案事故造成12位的非官殉職那當然包含這一次我想這是國家一個很大的損失因為非官的養生其實是不容易也造成了這個非官家庭的這個很大的傷痛那當然我們是不希望就是說這個事情再發生可是T34C初期教練接畢竟他已經是"},{"start":4575.868,"end":4601.201,"text":"四十幾年的老機種 可是不是說它老機種它就不堪使用到目前為止我看到國防部對外界的告知說其實它整個妥善率是OK的然後它的這個機鈴其實都還沒有到太儲的這個受限嘛所以我想請問一下 像我們這個T34C其實它的太儲其實是不是就依據國軍無效裝備太儲作業規定來做辦理 是不是 是嗎"},{"start":4606.241,"end":4625.614,"text":"我想太儲的部分,就這個相關的主戰專備當然是要有這個符合作戰需求,這個項目有要考量那其他的這些太儲包括就是說我們的修復的成本可能高過一定的比例等等,然後或者是說這個"},{"start":4630.069,"end":4657.366,"text":"最主要可能有一些消失性的傷源沒有足夠的零附件等等這些都會在我們考量的範圍之內對嘛 就是我們依據的就是國軍無效裝備汰除作業規定來做辦理嘛因為剛剛部長講的其實就是剛剛我在簡報上面所提供的譬如說汰除的分類我們有偵測性的汰除 技術性的汰除譬如說偵測性的汰除譬如說部長剛才提到的不符合作戰的需求"},{"start":4658.687,"end":4683.372,"text":"技術性的汰除有裝備性跟妥善率它使用這個效益不佔或成本呢這個維護的成本過高或是說它的裝備的這個受限比如說你還沒有到還沒有到這個使用年限之前當然如果經過鑑定跟檢修它還是能夠達到這個原作戰性能當然是沒有辦法汰除可是已經不符合無法達到原作戰性能我們就檢討把它汰除"},{"start":4684.232,"end":4699.63,"text":"那甚至年限到了如果說它還是能夠使用的話我們還不得辦理太粗可是我們有在看很仔細看了這個規定裡面當然如果你說T34C出急叫煉機好像"},{"start":4700.351,"end":4724.785,"text":"目前所看到的 因為我看到國防部的這個新聞稿裡面有提到說不管它的妥善率也好 其實都是OK的它的零件 傷源其實也沒有中斷那再來它的使用年限也還未到可是我一直覺得有一點 就是說實在的它畢竟是40年前設計出來的這個機種它到底符不符合現在作戰的這個需求"},{"start":4726.944,"end":4753.826,"text":"這一點可以說明一下嗎因為現在的作戰型態已經不一樣了因為他是一個初級的一個教練級所以主要是在對這個飛官做這個教育訓練所以在還沒有接受級的情況下當然我們要最主要就是要維護他的裝備的安全性所以我們要透過這個剛剛講的我們對機體結構啊等等的都要做一個妥善的一個"},{"start":4755.033,"end":4769.926,"text":"一個維護那另外他看也要看他本身有沒有消失性的傷害影響他的安全那現今當然迄今沒有還沒有消失性傷害在T34上面所以裝備的妥善的這個部分我們都請漢陽公司來做一個維護這樣"},{"start":4771.227,"end":4788.84,"text":"好 部長T34C其實不是現在才檢討之前就檢討過了它有沒有納入所謂非關安全這個部分因為像過去40幾年前的設計它並沒有這個彈跳椅它也沒有這個黑盒子"},{"start":4789.58,"end":4812.196,"text":"那到底像這個沒有彈跳椅這部分說實在因為現在事件的事故的發生原因到目前為止調查的這個結果還沒有出來那到底到底像過去發生了12次的這個非官責損的這件事件我們到底有沒有把這個所謂非官的安全因素納入到我們太處的"},{"start":4814.358,"end":4830.499,"text":"這個原則裡面去雖然他有背著這個降落傘上飛機那會不會說因為高度的原因他也來不及打開這個降落傘造成他真的是逃生不及這部分有沒有納入到我們太處的考量"},{"start":4831.718,"end":4844.292,"text":"跟委員報告,應該就是說,我們有關那個操作的安全性跟那個人員的風險,我們在操作安全性上面都會在裝備的妥善的,還有這個都會來評估這個裝備的妥善是"},{"start":4852.545,"end":4866.215,"text":"是我們一個重要的項目之一也就是說裝備妥善是一個前提嘛因為畢竟這就是我們要維護這個安全那另外人員在出勤之前我們就會要落實任務提示然後來"},{"start":4867.676,"end":4889.562,"text":"辦理人員裝備環境科目任務計畫等等都要做一個風險評估請教一下T34C初級教練及目前全世界有幾個國家在使用目前我們掌握的包含國家總共還有四個國家在使用還有四個國家 台灣那還有呢"},{"start":4890.402,"end":4909.904,"text":"還有密魯阿根廷以及台灣 還有美國還有這四個國家 其實也可以說是很多國家都不再使用T-34C了是這樣的意思嗎 現在只有四個國家在使用逐漸太換 逐漸太換當中 我有看到像我們的鄰國泰國也好 越南也好 他們都已經引進了美國的T-6"},{"start":4911.921,"end":4940.36,"text":"對 那我們台灣做不到嗎因為我剛剛有聽到其他的委員在提到說我們到底要是國際國造還是要直接外購或者是要售權生產等等喔那我們有辦法有做多元的方式來做引進不管是國際國造也好或直接外購用雙軌式的方式來辦理有辦法這樣子做嗎我們就是一定要等到2033年才能夠逐步來做太初嗎我們剛剛有說明我們大概明年"},{"start":4941.419,"end":4949.134,"text":"5月就會來確定這個籌購的策略,那我們希望明年提出來以後,117年就可以開始進行籌購"},{"start":4950.772,"end":4973.469,"text":"那投購的方式就是外購的方式或可能是國際國造因為我有看到就是說像這個漢翔他也有提到說他其實跟這個中科院其實有完成第一階段的設計這個是這部分呢這部分是不是他說可能啟動專案的話可能三年後首飛六年後量產滿足2033年的這個需求這是在我們的計畫當中嗎我想我們空軍應該會"},{"start":4975.769,"end":4992.501,"text":"依據我們未來訓練的需求,因為這主要是訓練機,我們也會導入先進的訓練模式,我們來收整國內的科技研發能量,以及國外現有的商情,我們最後就會做個評估出來"},{"start":4994.11,"end":5010.361,"text":"OK聽起來我們在這個部分好像並還沒有一個明確的一個方案出來都還在評估當中可是我還是覺得說像T34C說實在雖然說大家都說妥善率也好或者是說零組件其實這個來源並沒有這個餘力操作好像也沒有什麼問題可是畢竟現在的作戰模式跟過往其實是不一樣"},{"start":5018.746,"end":5018.786,"text":"我們會積極來評估"},{"start":5048.304,"end":5051.647,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢好 主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":5084.208,"end":5095.833,"text":"今天的主題是指國軍的老舊裝備太初啟程跟戰略銜接的配套規劃那麼剛才也聽取了連山次長對整個換裝過程的經過那麼做一個敘述我這邊做出幾個建議"},{"start":5101.786,"end":5121.784,"text":"本职是落实不对称持久战力提升全方位的韧性原则目标方法手段我最后提出的建议在挑战部分因为打装编训是我们战力的基础目前有些装备缺装的氛围下怎么样完成建军备战的核心工作"},{"start":5123.345,"end":5138.021,"text":"人才很重要招募不易刘迎南现在边线比很低尤其是这个新式装备的回来对原本老旧装备太楚后他的人员要接替他会有很大的压力因此要给他一个"},{"start":5139.022,"end":5158.638,"text":"调试的骑乘空间并不是旧装备太除这个单位就废除除非是一个全新的装备建置一个新单位那我们还会有实验编装有一个转换期那么合格的教官以及授课的服务的骑乘这个比较难以匹配"},{"start":5159.318,"end":5179.774,"text":"那么也建议除了在技术学校基础训练班以外国防大学的陆军子参学院海军空军很多的新的武器装备的新概念导入以后要从课程开始更新教育更新尤其是现在一直在强调AI的技术导入"},{"start":5180.515,"end":5194.32,"text":"那麼還有一些新的我們講的圖像共同圖像那麼在操作手冊準則叫飯方面都要能夠同步而且要加快進程這個是很重要的那麼尤其是現在強調的不對稱戰力"},{"start":5196.201,"end":5210.908,"text":"以无人机跟各部队的合作做基础实际上在军种跨军种中间这个还要很多协商协调努力的空间因为接装的时程不同那使用的频率这个管道也不同"},{"start":5211.668,"end":5227.799,"text":"這個部分可能除了資通電軍我們這個通知次長還有另外就是跟我們國內的這個通訊單位速發部那有些頻率我們還要爭取頻寬還不夠這個部分是要共同努力部長在這個地方請您簡單的回應"},{"start":5230.652,"end":5249.41,"text":"我想我們在最重要的就是裝備太儲跟新式戰力的建構主要的問題就在於是說我們要接裝之後我們才能夠換裝,那不然都會產生戰力的一個間隙,這個就是"},{"start":5250.447,"end":5264.09,"text":"我們現在所面臨的很多服役年限逐漸增加可是在這樣的情況之下,還是有一定的戰力的情況之下,我想我們還是要來維護這個本來就具備的戰力那當然如果我們認為這個"},{"start":5276.201,"end":5292.85,"text":"沒有確實它是一個無效的一個裝備的話,那我們現在也訂定了整體的一個規劃,我們會來逐步的來太組這些無效的裝備那詳細的這個內容,因為我想是涉及機敏,我們就不具體的一一來說明"},{"start":5296.845,"end":5312.738,"text":"這個我們跟部裡面同仁保持密切的協調溝通也就是說在接莊重疊、汰換中間有的時候難免會產生人員的落差或是士氣上面的壓力這個部分要提醒大家共同注意"},{"start":5313.979,"end":5334.196,"text":"我想接裝新的裝備都是非常重要的,因為接裝都會有一個過程所以這個時候要陸續讓接裝的能力能夠擴充到一個程度但同時新式的裝備可能在某個時間還是要維持"},{"start":5336.678,"end":5355.048,"text":"是这个要大家共同努力是下面这张图比较复杂就是因为最近从5月28号媒体就在报道日本跟菲律宾他们有关经济海域重叠去做协议当然这个中间会影响到我们本身的所谓的"},{"start":5356.504,"end":5377.856,"text":"經濟水域但因為一直沒有一個圖像我跟部長報告說我們現在在強調的國軍在建立JCOP共同圖像是戰術性的這是屬於我們的武器跟Sensor涵蓋範圍的重疊區但是跨部會我建議要產生一個"},{"start":5378.937,"end":5407.266,"text":"共同性的战略图像也就是说这个不仅止于的我们防空识别区不仅止于我们各个部队驻守涵盖的范围那这个东西啊可能还需要涵盖了你的空域训练空域就是说你的ADIS还有民航局的FIR另外标注领海基线领海12里24里到经济海域"},{"start":5408.606,"end":5437.009,"text":"这个谈到的问题其实源头就是这个这个是1982年12月10号联合国海洋公约经过9年的讨论正式通过这个是原版第一版的1983年版的这里面律定了很多清楚的条例但今天不是我们要讨论的重点关键在于这个共同图像因为要根据内政部公布的那么他是在民国87年的1月"},{"start":5441.15,"end":5448.841,"text":"21號公佈了臨海法 臨海基線 匹聯區以及我們的專屬經濟海域但這個圖"},{"start":5451.653,"end":5480.163,"text":"不是國防部來標也不是內政部做出來公佈那外交部去協商其他的國家跟周遭國家溝通我們沒有一個基本的圖像所以這個部分也就是說我們還要建立一個共同性的戰略共同圖像也就是說在我們的國安會碰到這種跨國情勢我們的海巡我們的國防部我們海軍本身"},{"start":5481.291,"end":5507.844,"text":"外交部 内政部大家用这个来做讨论那么在有关EEZ的范围内政部公布了总共二十几条都在这上面我提出这个重点就是说图中心的那个就是说我们当时画出来的台湾的200里经济海域但是也尊重周遭的国家所以也有重叠也有退让但这张图再下一张图"},{"start":5509.434,"end":5522.913,"text":"這個圖呢未必客觀可是中間就是根據菲律賓跟日本所言重疊區但在這個裡面呢我們的海巡在執法我們海軍也在做監控但是你沒有一個完整的大範圍的"},{"start":5524.455,"end":5542.874,"text":"戰略性的共同圖像在跨部會討論的時候如果是用看媒體報導或是憑我們直覺我們因為平常只有一個小範圍的圖所以這張圖是可以擴大那麼可以用這個圖的原始底圖原來是航圖在經過校正套疊上去的"},{"start":5544.073,"end":5573.671,"text":"那根据联合国海洋法公约里面74条83条不损及第三国的利益我们并没有建议要同步跟日本跟菲律宾谈因为那是他们两个人谈可是我们个别可以透过我们的对的对口单位表达我在这个地方跟你重叠区如何维护我的权益跟执法权那这个下面呢这张图各位看的右边这个图啊这是我们空军的训练工具"},{"start":5575.165,"end":5598.753,"text":"那原本是防空識別區但是因為現在民航局的FR圖裡面會把民航航線標註也是中共的共機在擾台的時候有時候跨越中線有時候在飛但是它的高度跟民航局的飛行航線是錯開的所以它是玩灰色地帶的手法但這個東西呢因為我們每天有標註共機擾台"},{"start":5602.035,"end":5626.093,"text":"這個海上船的部署位置但是我建議把那個圖略加調整現在是有比較的經緯度概念可是跨域旁邊的就沒有了那這一次呢這是剛才的小圖各位看這是昨天跟前天下午我們把這個marine traffic裡面海上航圖啊這裡面就有菲律賓的"},{"start":5627.976,"end":5654.219,"text":"漁船這個紅圈圈位置並不清楚進到這個位置但這個範圍呢也是在24里之外可是在我們的專屬經濟海域這個跟國軍的執法互相沒有關係但是呢海巡呢又說超過24里了那這個時候是什麼呢在十年前呢自由自由時報啊就登了一篇五月"},{"start":5656.408,"end":5674.643,"text":"5月7号他讲经济海域的护舆 文斗这是讲法律的解释条款方方沟通这个里面国防部呢并不是主导可是呢我们要建议要用出一个共同图像战略性的图像涵盖范围足够让海委会"},{"start":5675.492,"end":5696.635,"text":"让内政部外交部甚至我们在国安会共同讨论因为如果有其他的国家的军舰进入我们的地方做海盐做调查其实这是侵犯主权那这个部分我的建议就是说这个战略性的共同图像也请联二来找海军配合军种"},{"start":5697.196,"end":5720.33,"text":"我們大家一起努力用這個底圖來供我們的政府各部門在協商過程中間的利潤上有一個比較準確的這個理論依據這個梁院次長您回答一下謝謝委員的提醒我們下去了以後會按照剛剛委員所提示的這個部分跟各部會共同來研究怎麼樣把我們的共同圖像來做強化好謝謝那這個謝謝各位部長"},{"start":5725.852,"end":5741.306,"text":"對,我想因為這個是涉及到跨部會的,那據我了解我們國安會已經就這個議題然後來做一個統整這樣子好,希望大家共同努力是,我們國安部會來參與好,謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5760.285,"end":5761.928,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長部長早"},{"start":5770.8,"end":5792.766,"text":"有關今天這個專報的主題也是因應我們近年來敵情威脅的不斷提升那我們看到國軍持續在檢討建軍備戰和戰力轉型的相關規劃不過在尋求構置新式的武器裝備的同時另一個同樣值得探討的議題就是我們有大量的這些老舊裝備陸續面臨"},{"start":5795.501,"end":5816.589,"text":"這個接受還有太儲的問題那先前我們國防部就曾提出這個無效裝備太儲檢討的幾項原則包括不符合作戰需求還有使用這個效益不彰不符修復成本或是已經到了這個核定受限的操作安全上的疑慮等等"},{"start":5817.549,"end":5829.51,"text":"那尤其在這次的報告當中也有提到部分的這些老舊裝備已經出現妥善率下降維修的成本增加還有零附件取得困難等等的問題"},{"start":5830.339,"end":5859.478,"text":"因此規劃逐步汰除也是我們戰力更新的一個必然過程那我想了解的是這些裝備究竟有哪些即將要退場退場後的替代方案是什麼那相關的這個規劃是否已經有依照我們相關的期程在執行包括如何來確保裝備的這個換裝能夠如期如實的進行避免產生新舊裝備交替期間的這個戰力缺口那對此我想請教部長"},{"start":5860.459,"end":5883.772,"text":"我們在最近這兩年,也就是115年還有116年度各軍種預計會完成太儲的這個主要裝備有哪些?那在這些規劃太儲的這些裝備退場後,國防部預計能夠為我們國家節省多少的這個維持費?有沒有最新的一個估算?額...公務員報告就是說額..."},{"start":5885.809,"end":5908.952,"text":"委員這裡有提到了,我們就說就陸海空軍的主彈裝備的一個太祖的規劃,我們是已經有我們經過這個充分的討論之後然後另辦了以後,那現在要由各司令部來修訂,然後來分聯執行但是要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":5909.953,"end":5932.834,"text":"我們這些五年的兵力整形計畫、五年的太阻計畫,還有我們的兵力邊桩的調整的計畫,我想這個都是涉及機敏的部分那個別哪些要逐年來太阻,我想這部分可能如果委員要了解,我們私下再跟委員做一個報告好,那另外一方面"},{"start":5933.812,"end":5961.363,"text":"是有關我們這些裝備太儲之後的處理作為我想應該有相關的辦法能夠依循處理但是其中包括我們戰車、甲車、艦艇、飛機等等如果我們維護的狀況還算不錯的話還有剩餘價值可能還會有再運用的空間那針對這部分是不是請部長再說明一下我們現有太儲裝備處置的原則是什麼"},{"start":5962.003,"end":5986.394,"text":"以及各軍種是否針對各項裝備的狀況已經有完整的一個評估,後續再運用的相關規劃?原則上裝備太足之後,我們要依照相關的規定來管辦報費做出帳的作業但是有一種可能性當然就是"},{"start":5987.341,"end":6001.688,"text":"有可能做軍事原證的部分,那這個是外交部外交部如果接獲友邦請願的話那經過外交部整體考量,認為可以推動的話那我想他"},{"start":6003.469,"end":6022.303,"text":"過程當然會請我們評估一個可行性,但整體還是要由外交部甚至總統做決定之後我們再來協助來試試但是這些都是屬於相關的機敏資訊,我們沒辦法公開說明有關裝備太儲之後的處置,也請我們國防部務必要"},{"start":6027.264,"end":6043.322,"text":"有一個妥善的評估跟規劃避免這個裝備戰力更新的過程裡面我們產生戰力的缺口我想這是最重要的對對對跟委員報告因為確實大家現在都在談30年、40年等等這些"},{"start":6044.181,"end":6067.135,"text":"我們確實是有一個不能夠形成戰力間隙的一個問題,所以我們就是要分批皆中,逐步換裝,這個也要請大家都能夠理解好,那對於今天早上看起來很多委員都在關心的,然後我們空軍發生這個出交機的失事,大家都感到非常的遺憾,那也請國防部在"},{"start":6068.355,"end":6091.805,"text":"這兩名非官的婦婿還有智商以及眷屬後續的生活上都能夠給予最大的一個幫助那也希望有一個完整的調查結果早日來釐清真相對於相關的這個非安訓練上的管理也能夠有一併檢討的一個機制近期也有許多對於出交機更新的討論原本是說122年才能夠達到"},{"start":6094.757,"end":6122.41,"text":"服役的這個受限所以還在評估當中但我想有必要提前完成規劃的話畢竟從這個計畫定案到飛機的量產到真正的這個行程站立也都需要很多年的時間而對於這個新的出叫機要選擇國造、外購還甚至這個租借剛剛部長您也大概回覆就是要到明年我們會有一個完整的一個"},{"start":6123.551,"end":6142.872,"text":"這個報告那這部分我想請教部長是說國防部評估訓練的需求那還有整體資源的配置您個人傾向會是用什麼方案比較有可能那分別籌貨的這個期程和成本上有沒有有什麼樣的一個差異再來就是考量到整體的這個資源"},{"start":6144.374,"end":6153.909,"text":"可能會有預算排擠的這個問題我們有沒有可能會將這個出教機的換裝順序往前最快什麼時候會有一個機會訂啊"},{"start":6157.12,"end":6182.867,"text":"各位報告,我剛剛先請跟委員說明,大概我們就是明年5月31號以前定案是建案定案,那籌購的策略應該也會在那個時候定案那我們117年如果能夠獲付預算,那我們預划可能就可以在119或120就可以獲得這些,那如果"},{"start":6185.013,"end":6199.52,"text":"相關的這些籌購的方式,我們就請空軍先做一個分析以後,再報上來核定有沒有可能再提前?我們今年的競案期程已經過,我們本來"},{"start":6202.768,"end":6212.401,"text":"我想他的還沒有接受所以我想這些規劃都還在我們的T34的接受期之內就可以完成換裝"},{"start":6214.633,"end":6235.274,"text":"好,那另外就是除了這個出交機以外,還有我們空運的主力西凹山洞機隊從當年的雷根總統批准對台軍售分3批次購入至今已經有逐步進入40年的售限期限,相關的升級換裝規劃我們都已經討論很多年"},{"start":6238.677,"end":6253.724,"text":"近期有媒體報導,軍方打算採取部分商購加上部分性能提升的混合方案包括要跟美方採購實價的西腰山洞J型"},{"start":6254.304,"end":6276.969,"text":"新型的這個運輸機,而部分相對年輕的這些運輸機,我們將交由我們中科院來進行性能提升那我想請教部長就是有關於我們西澳三棟的這個運輸機更新的相關規劃目前國防部評估的狀況為何,是否已經有定案那就相關的這個採購升級的規劃部長這部分是不是可以進一步說明"},{"start":6277.881,"end":6302.217,"text":"委員好 空氣參謀長跟您做個報告那性能提升的部分 因為我們之前也跟美方提出來那因為它的工項 能夠提供給我們的工項還有它的時程 預算 那都不符合我們的評估之後不符合我們效益 所以後續我們會用採購的方式來做一個替換那替換的時間 這個建案我們也都在進行當中那也跟委員補充一個報告"},{"start":6303.078,"end":6318.57,"text":"其實剛剛大家都在提T34這個事情就是說它接近了使用的受限那13棟也是一個很好的例子它整個使用受限其實只到一半有些甚至一半不到那我們就準備做一個替換其實最主要也是安全的考量"},{"start":6319.11,"end":6345.518,"text":"因為他的零附件的獲得已經在市面上已經有一些消失性傷源的問題所以說不只是性能提升,安全是我們第一個考量的所以這邊也跟委員做個補充那成如委員剛剛講的,我們會分階段來做一個這個汰換好,我覺得受限的部分應該是其次的這個真的是我們飛行的安全應該是要擺優先這部分參謀長您這個部分應該是要掌握精準一點"},{"start":6346.767,"end":6370.44,"text":"有機會的話我們如果真的認為這個飛機已經不堪用,我覺得就要汰換就要汰換那這個相關的這個建案是否會編入我們116年的這個國防部的預算當中那這個運輸機隊的規模會不會維持現行的20架還是會有所調整那這部分是部長還是參謀長要檢要回覆一下"},{"start":6370.92,"end":6397.907,"text":"因為明年的預算在今年5月31日之前按照國防部的建案作業規定裡面他是5月31日之前要完成那因為我們也報到國防部但是因為中間有一些品項目前還沒有談定所以說在116年的預算我們目前來不及放進去那我們會積極的爭取建案在明年之前完成然後放到117年的預算好那這部分再請我們國防部還有我們空軍"},{"start":6399.214,"end":6405.516,"text":"就積極的去辦理了是是好謝謝文哲好謝謝部長謝謝三部長好謝謝陳委員的質詢我們下一位請馬文君委員質詢謝主席麻煩請部長好請部長"},{"start":6434.031,"end":6446.748,"text":"今天我們特別釘釘這樣的議題其實也是很沉痛因為我們在近幾年其實我們發生的這樣的一個事故其實也不少那對所有"},{"start":6447.569,"end":6472.416,"text":"兵力的折損也非常嚴重然後也讓很多很多的家庭都幾乎是破碎的狀況可是我們看到這樣連續的發生其實它有很多應該要去檢討的部分如果我們今天看到包括部長的回覆還有空軍參謀長的回覆今天如果不是發生這一個意外的事件其實我們在所有的預算裡面或者在所有的討論裡面我們看不到我們會有籌購心機的這樣的一個"},{"start":6476.817,"end":6483.202,"text":"計劃因為他雖然所謂的全售期我們等一下會來討論我們一直在說他們還在我們的全售期裡面包括我們的C13棟可是我們在前年討論預算的時候其實已經有提過為什麼我們不買新的包括C13棟Z都已經現在有很多國家都已經都已經是要買更新的了"},{"start":6505.64,"end":6510.625,"text":"我們甚至用的都是40幾年前我們當時也討論可是在今天這個事件發生以後才讓我們相關的不管是國防部也好或者我們空軍也好去審慎的去看待這個事情我想我們還是要用比較快的速度那有幾個問題我們在這裡也要探討因為畢竟"},{"start":6527.082,"end":6547.023,"text":"我們新的飛機我們這個計畫也還沒有開始那我們這個甚至規劃要用到2033年那這一段過程裡面還是有很多的事情可能還是會發生因為過去發生的問題我們如果沒有找出來它就容易再發生那我們想要首先"},{"start":6547.944,"end":6563.973,"text":"我想要請教的是因為在這個失事的現場T-34C的機身它是焦黑破碎的那僅剩下垂直尾翼可以看出原貌這個當然也印證了這個飛機當時是處於機頭向下墜落的狀態而且顯示墜機當時力道非常猛烈那另外還有一個這個事故是發生在機場裡面"},{"start":6576.861,"end":6582.873,"text":"機場裡面我們就有消防車這個是非常近的距離照理說時間也應該不會這麼長可是他的機體為什麼會燒得這麼嚴重"},{"start":6591.622,"end":6595.823,"text":"整個事件發生之後大概在五分鐘左右消防車就到達現場這個事情請你查清楚他在很短的時間內不是很短就是他這個機身機體燒得這麼嚴重"},{"start":6608.647,"end":6628.656,"text":"你再去查一下是不是五分鐘不要在這裡這麼快的回答這個問題因為顯然不是在這裡先提醒那這個部分必須要去注意到底發生了什麼事因為它是在機場發生它不是掉在別的地方所以這個裡面有消防車可是也發生在機場裡面為什麼當時時間拖這麼久這個空軍希望參謀長再去"},{"start":6635.979,"end":6646.369,"text":"調查清楚那另外在媒體的報導裡面這一行在台灣已經使用是剛剛提到五分鐘是報告寫出來的嗎"},{"start":6647.509,"end":6657.854,"text":"是在那天世事調查的記者會8點08分發生8點10分的時候通知塔台然後下令我們的代密消防車出動8點15分到達飛機板邊這個部分請參謀長再查清楚提醒再查清楚他到底多久以後這個消防車才到現場的"},{"start":6667.279,"end":6678.825,"text":"那另外這個飛機在台灣已經使用了40多年那國防部還規劃要到2033年才開除如果沒有發生這個事情的時候其實我們是原規劃到2033年那已經使用這麼久原廠也已經停產了我們為什麼要用到50年才開除因為剛剛一直說它是在原廠規範的那個全售期裡面"},{"start":6693.173,"end":6706.148,"text":"原廠提供的售期規範目前還沒有達到售限可是首先我們要請教的是原廠售期規範以及未達售限的這個聲明是原廠哪一年的評估"},{"start":6707.389,"end":6717.353,"text":"這原廠它已經曾經破產了它已經被另外一家廠商收購在這一家廠商他們所有的資訊對外的資訊裡面也沒有這一型的這個飛機這一款飛機了那我們這個原廠售期規範到底是什麼時候訂的然後可以到如果用到2033年它幾乎已經到50年"},{"start":6728.857,"end":6743.666,"text":"那這一段時間他甚至在2010年美國軍方已經全面淘汰這一款飛機了那所有的美國原廠不但停產相關的主要零件那他也不用了所以原廠又破產"},{"start":6745.487,"end":6768.724,"text":"那新廠又沒有這一款飛機所以我們包括所有的相關零附件我們即使有漢想在維修維護維持它的妥善率我們都說妥善率可以維持到那時候可是我們從這些客觀的條件上面看起來我們看不到它可以做到這麼好的程度所以這也是我們擔心的因為包括飛官自己本身"},{"start":6769.966,"end":6784.485,"text":"不管他是怎麼樣的狀況底下說出這樣的話他說開T34C是玩命連他的媽媽這可能都是一輩子的痛他本來不希望他飛這麼快速的F16戰機"},{"start":6786.548,"end":6793.91,"text":"那挑選這個速度已經比較慢的還發生這樣的憾事而且是他幫他決定的這個我相信對他來是一個痛可是我們要探討的是為什麼他們會這麼說然後為什麼他還是會發生而且我們剛剛說我們的淘汰的這個時間點要到2033年可是我們看所有的條件我們不知道他到底為什麼我們會訂出這樣的一個全售期而且說是廠商說的廠商都已經倒了"},{"start":6815.436,"end":6842.156,"text":"那而且在台灣我們還有比較特殊的狀況之前F16AB在升級的時候我們看外觀其實大概那時候的評估後來為什麼預算會暴增就是打開一看包括美國原廠打開來看才發現裡面嗅食這麼嚴重因為台灣的環境就是這樣啊你靠近我們靠近海邊然後它造成的飛機的損害其實是比其他國家還要嚴重"},{"start":6843.837,"end":6859.294,"text":"所以就這個部分包括我們的康廷集建也是啊這個都是秀時造成的所以我們怎麼可能可以比別人維持得更久的時間甚至現在連越南人家都已經買新的了這個部分我們希望在很快的時間而且"},{"start":6861.924,"end":6887.865,"text":"過去不管是部長也好就是我們所有國家的政策也好其實大家都說我們要國防自主那這個要取得好像也不是那麼困難那我們的考量又是什麼需要這麼長的時間因為過去其實已經討論過了包括漢祥本身應該也做了一些準備他的能力到底足不足這個部分應該很快就可以做好評估我們希望如果可以盡快每一天其實都是一個寶貴的時間那這"},{"start":6890.812,"end":6912.431,"text":"這個部分我們希望可以可能在這個預算的運用上面因為我們的國防預算其實都已經增加非常非常的多也可以用暴增來形容所以如果說有一些應該要換的而且可以增加戰力而且可以讓我們的訓練更好我想這個可能都是必要的一個應該要迅速的投資那我們在"},{"start":6913.232,"end":6929.546,"text":"可是這一段時間我們畢竟還沒有取得新的飛機不管是用什麼樣的方式籌貨的那這一段時間也請教參謀長或國防部應該要說明要怎麼增加這一款飛機的安全"},{"start":6931.163,"end":6954.999,"text":"很快跟你做幾個報告第一個這個飛機在全世界目前還有四個國家在使用所以說它的零附件的供給目前來講即使原廠沒有美國軍方已經全部汰換了吧沒有 美國還在使用軍方哪一個 誰在使用海軍還在使用海軍他們用在什麼地方還有多少下去之後查清楚都給你做報告數量不多但是海軍還在使用那目前世界有四個國家還在使用這個第一點第二點"},{"start":6956.099,"end":6970.958,"text":"廠家雖然說更換了但是我們所有的飛機採購的時候而且我們不要花很多時間去解釋這個部分因為它就是只剩下四個我就說連周邊越南都已經換了新的那我們沒有必要去認定說還有沒有零附件因為如果只為了這幾家"},{"start":6972.079,"end":6979.364,"text":"第一它的價格一定很高因為它不可能有留或者再新的為我們去做這些如果這樣子它就會很高那我們不要花時間在這裡我們要知道的是在這一段時間裡面怎麼增加它的安全措施因為蔡某長本身你大概也是可以飛行的那怎麼樣像現在發生這樣子的一個狀況這一段時間要怎麼樣維護飛行員的安全因為他們兩位其實都已經是資深的飛行教官"},{"start":7001.158,"end":7013.085,"text":"如果連他們都發生這樣的意外事故那新的學員怎麼有信心或者怎麼敢去飛這樣的飛機那這段時間我們要怎麼樣給他們信心或者怎麼樣維持這樣安全的一個防護簡單說明好不好"},{"start":7017.248,"end":7034.185,"text":"所有的零附件剛剛跟您報告所有零附件跟妥善都沒有問題都可以繼續的維持那這個飛機使用的時間也還沒到所以說在安全上絕對是我們的第一個考量如果說有任何影響到安全的這個功像我們會都會做逐一的改善來做一個更換那"},{"start":7035.726,"end":7050.787,"text":"至於飛行員的部分教育的部分我們就是從人員的部分去加強他們緊急程序處理上的一個應對以及雙座機剛剛提到兩個人在飛機上那雙座機職長這個組員資源管理怎麼樣去加強這也是我們後面要去加強的"},{"start":7051.307,"end":7055.013,"text":"除了這些以外剛剛參謀長其實已經有提到我們時間很短我們就來談談剛剛有提到說我們可能在訓練上面因為他們兩位都是比較資深的可是人員為什麼還要加強訓練有一個部分"},{"start":7066.59,"end":7072.334,"text":"其實我們現在君子老師相對帶飛機帶飛的時間是相對比較短因為我們用了很多的民聘老師那一個小時大概八千塊所以很多他們也會很積極的帶飛所以相對來講我們君子老師可以飛的時數就會比較少"},{"start":7085.822,"end":7091.346,"text":"因為像這些他們都很資深可是他們在飛這型機的時數反而沒有那麼高這一定就是一個原因那這個原因如果說他們都沒有辦法飛這麼多的時數那到底是什麼樣的因素怎麼樣會可以提高他們也可以相對的去有這樣子的一個訓練的機會或者更熟悉的機會這是第一點第二個我們通常在發生就是在飛的時候不是只有飛行員"},{"start":7116.282,"end":7131.909,"text":"雖然他們是自身 可是我們還有撫飛官當時在地面上 他們也會用望遠鏡看今天如果他的速度已經是 速度不夠而且高度不夠 照理說也會有人提醒如果他們兩個疏忽了"},{"start":7133.49,"end":7136.533,"text":"他們兩個即使是已經資深的,可是已經疏忽了地面上也有撫飛官那這些撫飛官他們當時沒有提出建議或者沒有提出警訊嗎?這是第一點第二個塔台上面也有高情官"},{"start":7150.285,"end":7174.271,"text":"每一個學員在做項目的時候都會有高情觀看著所以在我們空軍在現在我們希望他可以確切的去找到他到底為什麼發生這樣的事情我們剛剛講到這麼多還包括為什麼那個教官的媽媽會認為說這比較安全因為他是有滑翔的包括比較內行的大概一直在討論說這款飛機其實1比12他的滑翔的比例"},{"start":7179.412,"end":7199.38,"text":"照理說它也是相對安全的不過這個事故還是發生了這個部分我們也必須要去了解到底什麼原因另外還有一個就是你的乳酪定律我們空軍裡面的乳酪定律你要所有的事情全部一起發生它才會發生這樣的事故"},{"start":7200.06,"end":7207.022,"text":"如果說你的妥善率也很好你的維保也很好這兩位也都是有經驗的照理說就不可能發生這麼嚴重的這樣的事故所以到底是什麼原因我們希望確切的把問題找出來包括我剛剛提到的消防就是我們的機體為什麼燒的這麼嚴重這個都希望可以去把它找出確切的原因不然永遠都解決不了"},{"start":7226.047,"end":7241.902,"text":"永遠都會有這些傷痛一直不斷的發生那另外再接一點點時間我要請教部長的就這個部分我們在今年其實我們暴增了非常多的預算那其中其實包括很多的訓練人員都是從美國來的"},{"start":7246.826,"end":7262.873,"text":"那之前其實我們發生我們現在有看到我們之前在討論預算的時候也提到就是我們今年那個就是在台美國防部共同合作評估案的部分這個在作跡式、訓斥式台美交流預算"},{"start":7264.253,"end":7279.125,"text":"預算都是暴增那這一個在整平思他的預算增加更多而且多得非常離譜那我們沒有辦法知道說到底是什麼原因因為過去可能在109年到110年的時候兩年加起來只有1525萬可是從112年到去年"},{"start":7284.91,"end":7301.964,"text":"這幾年每年編列的預算大概也是41萬美金折合台幣大概是1000多萬可是到了今年115年從去年到今年1000多萬變成暴增到500萬美元從41萬美元暴增成500萬美元"},{"start":7304.346,"end":7328.257,"text":"高達一億五千多萬的台幣這個增加的幅度高達十二倍那它三年就變了四億多這一個四億多它不是採購武器裝備也不是直接投入戰備整備更不是軍購它就是一個交流的費用我們不知道這個交流費用共同合作評估為什麼突然要暴增這麼多那暴增這麼多"},{"start":7329.824,"end":7353.8,"text":"他到底有多少美方會派多少人來或進行多少次會議會有多少效益因為我們這個雙方的這樣子的一個交流觀摩其實已經很長的時間從我剛剛說109年到現在編列相關的預算也這麼長的時間那他是有什麼特別需求或者部長你有看到有什麼突然發現有什麼特別需要我們需要這麼多的美方的人員來協助我們嗎"},{"start":7359.723,"end":7374.731,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個JFD就是聯合戰略發展是一個專案的一個項目那我想具體的細節以及之所以如何報道如果可以的話我再跟委員我們請跟委員做一個詳細的說明好這個部分我們"},{"start":7375.211,"end":7394.17,"text":"在會後希望部長這個部分先說明清楚因為他暴增的太多那也沒有時間在這裡做更深入的討論那我們希望還是後續還是必須要因為他一邊編三年那可是衍生的問題這一次我們在媒體看到有一個就是"},{"start":7395.831,"end":7409.734,"text":"隸屬於陸軍航空特戰指揮部外界稱梁山特勤隊的在執行台美高度機密軍事交流任務的時候有一名外國人把這個機密的台美協訓細節跟軍事證件拍照上傳這個在個人的公開社群媒體上已經出現了而且該名外國上市目前還被派在我們陸軍的金湯營區執行這樣台美軍事交流的任務"},{"start":7424.741,"end":7447.037,"text":"其實該院已經罔顧軍人保密的天職這個非常嚴重因為國防部在近期還包括相關的國安單位一直都說任何的事情不管我們的營區也好所有的訓練也好有很多其實都是非常機敏的而且都是用高標準在對待包括我們所有的委員也是我們很多的資料都不可以看可是"},{"start":7447.917,"end":7460.243,"text":"像這樣的一個外國人來跟我們做一些軍事交流的時候他可以把它公佈在他個人的這些社群媒體而且他已經全世界都看得到了那像這樣的狀況因為多張演訓的現場影像甚至把防護很嚴密的經常隱居的識別證都清晰的拍下來而且供諸於世那包括他的身份職稱"},{"start":7471.109,"end":7482.937,"text":"描述自己現在執行的任務 協軍任務 外籍內部防禦 FID 等等其實他都已經公布出來所以我們要問的是 他來台的經費是我們出的還是他們自己付的有關於涉外的事 我下去再跟委員做說明"},{"start":7493.191,"end":7511.593,"text":"那既然是涉外可是他就是在國內發生的如果他不管他的經費怎麼樣如果是我們負責他更應該負責雖然他是外國人對外國人來說我們的機密也許不是他的機密可是對於我們來說這是很高的風險而且是一個很大的破口當你們在很嚴格的"},{"start":7513.635,"end":7534.269,"text":"或者高標準在對我們所有的委員或者所有的國人或者所有相關的人員這樣子的一個標準可是卻很簡單的就被外國人而且來深入他們來的全都是我們非常機敏的相關的任務或機敏的區域喔如果這樣我們有對他們有沒有罰則或者我們可以怎麼樣的要求簡單說明一下"},{"start":7536.57,"end":7558.239,"text":"簡單的說這個已經是過去幾年前的一個案例那事實上過去幾年前什麼時候新聞出來是在他這個是在我們金湯營區的這個部分我說這個的確是過去幾年前的案例那詳細的狀況我下去再跟委員報告那事實上在不管是任何的"},{"start":7559.505,"end":7580.022,"text":"任務訓練上面相關的保密切結那是不管任何人我們一律都是所以我們有相關的一個管制的作為有也有罰則下去會跟委員做說明我們希望你提出具體的說明那不用這樣說因為如果有就具體的說因為你對於洩密或者有可能洩密的狀況你會怎麼樣的處置外國人跟我們本國人"},{"start":7581.363,"end":7596.333,"text":"是不是一致的不要私下說明因為這是公開的如果他發生這樣的事情我們應該要怎麼樣去處置啊或者我們應該要怎麼樣在事先就應該要給他有相關的規範這個部分有做到了嗎有相關的規範嗎現在有這樣做"},{"start":7599.788,"end":7627.7,"text":"現在有這樣做有人發聲嗎你不是說這很幾年前的問題所以我說這是兩件事第一個委員我要知道我們現在有沒有這樣子的一個處罰的機制或者有這樣的規範嗎有這樣的一個約束的機制那當然用什麼樣的方式約束有出面資料涉違反規定當然有相關的該是違反相關的機密處理就按照相關的規範外國人你會怎麼做"},{"start":7629.514,"end":7644.299,"text":"這下去跟我們做說這個不用下去啦就如果它發生了嘛如果是外國人就跟我們的法律或者我們的規定一樣啊你要讓大家知道大家才知道要遵守啊這我們國人當然知道不可以泄密不可以違反這樣的相關規定可是外國人"},{"start":7647.08,"end":7667.15,"text":"現在有很多因為剛剛我說我們的預算暴增可見有很多人會來那這麼多人來他去我們的基民區域包括去中科院我們所有很多的基民的資料他們都可以一清二楚那當他們如果洩漏出去或不管是故意或不小心其實他如果發生這樣的事情我們怎麼處置"},{"start":7669.824,"end":7697.082,"text":"報告員,這個既然過去有類似這樣的事情,後續我們在執行上就有相關的機制什麼時候可以給我們看?相關的機制,怎麼處理這個機制?這個我單獨告言就報告了這可能沒有嗎?不,不會沒有那這有什麼機密嗎?你要怎麼去處罰他?這有什麼機密嗎?因為這有關於相關的社會的事務,我們原理是不會再公開說明"},{"start":7697.662,"end":7709.936,"text":"你不用公開說明可是這攸關了我們國家的安全你用了這麼多的預算然後危害到國家的安全的時候就必須有處置的作為這個不是機敏你今天如果這些外國來的人員"},{"start":7712.639,"end":7721.066,"text":"因為他發生這樣的事情對我們造成嚴重損害的時候你必須要很清楚的有這樣的作為那現在如果說沒有辦法立即回答出來給我們更詳細的一些資料你要怎麼做那不是公開的說明因為我們是我們自己可以自主我們的建軍規劃還有我們的參謀的這些能力都很強你今天也要"},{"start":7736.52,"end":7753.244,"text":"編那麼多錢請人家來那我們自己的能量到底在哪裡那他們還可以不受約束那就會更離譜了這個部分我們請做一些詳細的一個書面資料提供給我們委員會或本席是好 謝謝好 謝謝馬委員來 喝口水好 下一位我們請黃恩祥委員質詢"},{"start":7772.347,"end":7773.234,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":7782.907,"end":7808.974,"text":"是 黃委員部長早剛剛前面有非常多委員當然針對T34系的部分提出了非常多的質詢也看到很多部長也提出了一些因應的方案那我這邊其實就是把歷次T34大概發生的事故這邊做一下整理當然我們看起來大概已經有所謂12次了那也有非常多我們的"},{"start":7809.574,"end":7821.312,"text":"工具非常優秀的飛行員因為這樣的事故而導致罹難這個是我們非常不想看到的一個事情我想這一次我們今天會開這樣的專報基本上我們也希望藉由過去這樣的經驗也是非常慘痛的經驗能夠記取教訓"},{"start":7825.057,"end":7849.295,"text":"那從這個剛剛部長也提到很多啦有關於受期的部分我想當然就開放來說受期當然是一個很重要的因素啦不過看到有這麼多的事故上我們是不是真的應該要考慮要禁訴啦或者是在沒有到接受期我們是不是就應該要來做一些處理剛剛很多人也提到那個T6嘛然後部長好像有提到一下那個重獲的期程好像是到明年的五月是嗎"},{"start":7850.575,"end":7877.673,"text":"對,現在就是說,按照這個飛行的這個時數,它預掛是一萬六現在是在一萬三,所以還沒有接受起那我們現在就預划明年的五月三十一號已經完成建案那也會做好這個籌購策略的評估五月三十一完成建案之後,就會在明年就送預算案進來那希望委員能夠支持,然後就確定有一個籌購的一個計畫"},{"start":7880.054,"end":7902.807,"text":"我們希望能夠儘速能夠獲得對 剛剛有很多委員前面也提到到底要是國拘國招還是說用違...違...違...違...違...違...違...違...基本上這個大概都很多人提因為剛剛部長有說我就不再重複不過基本上我想全體的國人大概都希望這件事情大家都希望能夠加速因為看起來有這麼多的事故然後這個"},{"start":7904.248,"end":7923.874,"text":"看到這個飛行員這樣的狀況尤其是剛剛馬委員提到他媽媽的狀況我想我們都非常不忍希望部長這邊能夠加速考慮T-34這個太壞的部分接下來我就講另外幾個我們這邊查到的幾個非常老舊的一些裝備這個可能是空軍海軍尤其是海軍就是這個所謂的S-70C這個部分"},{"start":7927.415,"end":7948.422,"text":"那我這邊也把它過去的一些事故,都有把它羅列上來這台設備基本上也蠻老舊的我這邊查到的資料好像都已經是當初海鷹號專案的時候籌購的大概都是1990年左右,所以這個裝備其實也都有一點年限"},{"start":7949.503,"end":7957.523,"text":"他好像都在艦艇上做飛行的動作這邊不曉得他一年落艦的小時數大概是多少"},{"start":7960.988,"end":7984.568,"text":"各位報告,S拐動這種機型目前有關機身的小時數目前都還在歸半之內那它每年它會配合我們的艦艇在海上做這個配屬在海上做這個起落艦還有徵巡的一些任務那平均每年在非風氣的期間,風氣期間它都會進駐在這個海上"},{"start":7987.29,"end":8015.974,"text":"那平均會看當時的天氣的狀況來做這個徵詢的任務對 所以我們今天當然因為T34的關係我們要防範未然我們檢視一些比較老舊的裝備因為這個這一型機型基本上它都在海上作業而且常常是在這個低空來做飛行那因為在海上嘛所以又有所謂的這個嗅食的一個問題會不會加速它的老化有沒有要考慮提前汰換的一個可能性"},{"start":8017.165,"end":8025.368,"text":"根本報告因為他的這個機身的維護我們這個本身在埃及跟歐籍的這個保養上面我們會有這個週期性的維護來保養那有關他的機齡的問題我們後續確實有一些這個就現貨市場的這個機型我們會來做一些評估後續來做一些汰換的這個建案"},{"start":8039.833,"end":8064.066,"text":"好,我也是提醒參謀長這個機型看起來也是蠻老舊的一個機型希望能夠納入是否要汰換的一個評估的一個基準那接下來就是這一型MH-60R這個直升機的部分那這個好像也是非常非常久啦就是這個海鷹的部分那它基本上都是我們的那個啦就是它也是我們的Gabi的啦這個"},{"start":8065.626,"end":8093.874,"text":"不是Garfield講的是反潛直升機這個機型的狀況現在怎麼樣?我們要採購啦就是要來替換替換剛剛的那個我想相關的建案如果委員要了解我們私下再跟委員做個說明另外就是現在在網路上有很多人他非常的關注就是有關於這個潛艦就是我們Garfield"},{"start":8096.018,"end":8103.973,"text":"這個海獅啦齁這個過去的這個也蠻久的齁這個不曉得這個我們這一行的潛艦大概都已經這個服役多久了齁海獅啦齁"},{"start":8107.649,"end":8129.961,"text":"報告委員,目前海獅海豹這兩型,這兩個加比級的潛艦目前已經服役79年是,這個連線真的有點久了,都快要80年了而且前陣子在其他國家有潛艦發生意外的狀況,其實那個人員大概逃生的機會都非常非常低我不曉得現在潛艦的狀況,參謀長這邊對海軍在籌貨新的潛艦的部分的計畫是怎麼樣?"},{"start":8137.011,"end":8163.004,"text":"報告委員,目前我們這個新的潛艦的這個艦建造計畫就是海昆艦還有後續的後續艦目前都已經在執行當中那這個執行當中等後續有關海昆艦跟後續艦戰力逐漸建立的時候這時候我們會就這個所有的這個現役裝備的考量來考量這個了遭這個Gabi級後續的一些太儲的一些建議"},{"start":8163.784,"end":8189.458,"text":"對 因為現在大家基本上對這個東西有意見也是因為這個海昆號啦 他的這個建礙的狀況有一些狀況我覺得這是兩個狀況 當然他是一個替代的可能性不過因為現在看起來這個海昆這邊他的建礙的狀況這個其成 這個還是非常不確定那是不是還有什麼其他的方案可以做一些替換的方案因為這個真的是蠻久 剛剛這麼暖說是不是有什麼其他的替代方案 除了海昆號以外"},{"start":8190.8,"end":8211.317,"text":"目前有關潛艦的部分,目前我們的這個就是按照目前這個海商的計畫,就是國艦國造的這個計畫,我們持續在落實在執行是,那那個剛剛說海獅海豹,基本上他一年大概服役的天數大概有多少?現在海獅跟海豹,他現在一年潛在"},{"start":8213.629,"end":8236.354,"text":"在服役的天數大概是多少?他只要是不在休期之內他基本上都是屬於服勤的狀況因為上面很多討論包括他上面的裝備基本上都還堪用嗎?法委員目前這兩艘咖啡機的我們目前還在做人員的訓練跟使用所以這個也是算是蠻老舊的裝備也請國防部列入這樣的一個參考"},{"start":8241.255,"end":8254.828,"text":"那剛剛其實後面也有其他的委員在講這個C13棟這個H的部分因為這一型機型其實也蠻老舊的不曉得對於這個機型現在有沒有什麼評估的一些方案的狀況"},{"start":8257.158,"end":8269.307,"text":"剛剛跟委員也報告過我們之前本來要做性能提升後來評估了他的經費時程還有品項、工項不符合我們作戰需求現在已經開始做籌貨現在好像還有11台我們還有20架基本上好像升級會有一些困難我們查到的資料"},{"start":8275.39,"end":8292.749,"text":"是因為他提供的這些我們升級的項目不符合我們作戰的需求來評估之後我們決定採購新機那新機大概是要再弄這一類的東西嗎目前市面上看起來是比較符合我們需求的大概就是要再弄這一款所以現在的期程大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":8293.61,"end":8309.56,"text":"因為它有時候這種運輸性有時候也會在旅客或是臨時性比較緊急的狀況我想這個安全的要求應該會拉得比較更高一點點是 安全是我們最重視的所以說它也是因為零附件供給上面慢慢出現問題之後我們就提早"},{"start":8310.2,"end":8325.348,"text":"因為它的受限其實只使用到一半大概一半左右所以說並不是所有的飛機只看一個受限它的各方面的評估我們都在進行當中所以說這個雖然受限只用到一半但是我們還是做了"},{"start":8325.948,"end":8345.368,"text":"更換這個整個機隊的一個規劃原本今年要完成建案因為裡面的品項有些軍售商售的這個比較複雜所以說我們在討論的過程中這個節點我們沒辦法在今年5月31完成所以我們會努力在明年5月31之前完成整個建案程序所以也就是說把全部的這個舊的130都要換掉嗎"},{"start":8347.635,"end":8375.694,"text":"當初採購是隔了九年各十架飛機各十架的三棟所以現在有可能要除次汰換的方式除次汰換所以這個也是啦我想這個都蠻多人關係甚至部長可以到網路上看現在在網路討論的狀況也非常非常的熱烈所以我希望藉由這次飛機的事故能夠讓國防部更加速的很多比較老舊的裝備做一些汰換尤其我剛剛上面說的一些裝備"},{"start":8384.819,"end":8387.741,"text":"謝謝接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席 請部長請部長"},{"start":8411.941,"end":8438.884,"text":"副長好那這個其實今天因為蠻多人都前面有已經問過了不過所以我就想說就是大概簡短說明就可以那因為呢大概在前陣子這個中科院本來就有在提出這個計畫說要有這種行刑的這一個教練級那稍微後來看到沒有什麼新的消息但我剛剛前面在聽其他委員質詢的時候這一個部長說其實是已經有這一個規劃了那是不是可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":8440.041,"end":8464.611,"text":"我們現在規劃就是明年5月31號以前完成建案那完成建案的當下我們會確定我們這個籌購的這個方案跟策略那我們希望在117年明年提出來以後117年能夠獲付預算那我們就來盡速進行籌購所以是116就是明年的時候才有辦法完成建案"},{"start":8470.535,"end":8482.584,"text":"那這個中間的從這個提出來一直到要完成建案這段期間就是說中間是有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難嗎就是說需要做這些國際國造還是說這個本來就是在預定的時程裡面"},{"start":8483.496,"end":8499.19,"text":"各種的籌購策略現在我想現有空間做專業評估評估以後會提報到國防部來我們會做一個定案好那因為這個前面大概很多委員問過了所以這個題目我想說大家可以去看前面質詢的資料"},{"start":8500.27,"end":8516.296,"text":"另外有一個這個是比較小的問題這個問題是在讓我感覺到就是說我們在一個國防部跟退伏會之間的銜接看能不能夠加強其實簡單來講就是這樣子就是說我們遇到一個案子他是因公受傷"},{"start":8517.216,"end":8532.295,"text":"那他因公受傷之後呢結果他退伍了之後呢他其實也有到這個退輔會那一邊呢然後呢有接受相關的協助那後來呢他呢才知道說他可以去申請這個善養金但他的時程已經過了"},{"start":8533.436,"end":8557.327,"text":"那我覺得當然法律就是法律 這個大概也 它規定就是如此但是我就在想說就是告知他說有這樣的一個權益這件事情中間是不是會有斷點所以之前我們有問過這一個部裡面一些相關的資料就是說過去幾年因為因公受傷或者說他這個腦部有受傷等等的狀況之下有一些他的"},{"start":8557.967,"end":8580.292,"text":"他的過程是快的是因為以前疫情比較長的時候比如說他本來在前期結果他因為這樣受傷那因為他就在國防部嘛他就在國防部的管轄範圍之內所以國防部很快的告訴他然後他也很快的可以申請但因為後來疫情在比較短的時候呢可能就不一樣了疫情比較短的時間之內他可能受傷然後呢他可能已經退伍了"},{"start":8580.672,"end":8608.692,"text":"那他退伍了之後呢結果他並沒有在那個過程被告知那結果呢導致他可能後來沒有申請所以我們發現呢過去大概十件裡面有真正申請的這個件數並沒有很多那我們這個權益其實就是擺在這邊他就是要給這些有因公智商來做使用所以不知道現在就是剛剛我講的這幾個案例我們當然呢如果說這個退輔會那邊應該要做好告知這個部分我們當然再去問退輔會"},{"start":8609.713,"end":8624.009,"text":"那現在可能國防一直到他這個從退伍這一段期間目前是不是比如說在第一時間是不是就有馬上告知又或者說呢有沒有這一個停滯不是就是有沒有什麼lag的這個狀況是否可以稍微說明一下"},{"start":8624.81,"end":8638.629,"text":"我們現在要求我們現在要求就是說各軍的司令部這是一個另外一個是後備指揮部所以各軍司令部如果他當時就確定因公制這個有身心障礙或者這個"},{"start":8640.371,"end":8665.596,"text":"受傷不能恢復 會馬上跟他講符合這個救養資格的話就由司令部要來有一個文然後給這個人簽售來提醒他也就是說會有這個10年的時效的問題那我想另外就是有後輩的指揮部的他們的農夫處也好或者是後輩指揮部的也要來控管也就我發生這樣的事情的話我請他們"},{"start":8667.51,"end":8673.565,"text":"農務處也好,或者後備指揮部也好,也一樣他要將這個如果符合善養金的資格,那就來"},{"start":8675.197,"end":8695.003,"text":"來主動來告知然後告知以後這個文件也交給他請他簽收以來盡到這個提醒的責任所以在前期的時候呢一旦發生的時候應該是蠻快速的這一個應該沒有問題那他一旦退了之後呢他的告知這件事情會變成說是在退伏會的身上嗎還是說這其實是國防部我們會跟退伏會來聯繫我們會請我們的後備"},{"start":8700.465,"end":8727.04,"text":"嘴部會來瞭解隨時來掌握這個狀況這樣好那這個就在麻煩因為我們這個我們調了資料之後發現其實有這個可以申請跟實際申請它是有落差的就是說過往沒有一個告知的一個程序那我們現在提出一個書面告知那請他簽收以後這樣雙方可能權利義務會比較明確一點好那這個就在麻煩因為畢竟是他們的權利如果說能夠有這個"},{"start":8730.021,"end":8756.327,"text":"告知的這個SOP我相信對這一個我們的官兵才會有一個比較妥善的照顧這一點就再拜託那我在時間還有再問一下就是說現在就是說這一個國際這些智庫一直在強調就是說我們互通對建軍戰備的一個關鍵效益那培育這些交流的人才那我們現在也有這一個創新的這一個部門然後可以跟國外做交流那"},{"start":8757.103,"end":8775.973,"text":"我這邊想要問或者說想要提醒的一件事情就是說因為呢我們在分享這些不管是分享情資啦分享圖資啦分享我們現在的做法這其實都是提高嚇阻的一部分那我現在在看我們之間的這個交流尤其現在看到各國的一些報告還有我們自己內部"},{"start":8776.673,"end":8795.229,"text":"我看到我們跟美國的交流當然是算多那到底有哪一些呢當然不適合在公開的場合但我們現在這個交流針對比如說日本針對菲律賓針對韓國這個其實它的對於這個所謂我們未來威脅的嚇阻有可能是更立即更有效的"},{"start":8795.789,"end":8812.468,"text":"所以呢我想問一下部長就是說我們現在在這個交流對於多國的這件事情就是不只是這個我們重要的盟友美國而已我們其他在亞洲也有許多重要的盟友那現在呢在培育我們相關交流的人才這一方面目前進程大概如何"},{"start":8813.8,"end":8837.435,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這樣就是說美國提出的這個印太戰略裡面有一個重點就是集體嚇阻那我看到最近日本扮演了非常重要的角色就是說他防衛武器移轉三原則改變了之後呢他將這些他的相關的這些武器裝備移轉到跟他有移轉協定的國家那其中包括了我"},{"start":8837.955,"end":8852.507,"text":"我們公開公請可以講的話包括有跟菲律賓跟澳洲等等那這些相關的裝備的一個操作的互動性日本跟美國是通的嘛那因為日本在提供之後日美"},{"start":8853.388,"end":8871.909,"text":"跟非等這些國家就會具有一個互通性的一個操作的可能性互通操作的可能性那再加上一些相關的演訓然後人才的培育等等我想這個就會建構成那"},{"start":8872.509,"end":8891.818,"text":"台灣跟美國之間,我想相關的這些演訊越來越綿密,交流合作計畫也越來越多。但是相關的細節,我想我們都涉及到這些跟美方之間的一些理解,我想我們沒有辦法對外做做說明。"},{"start":8892.518,"end":8911.513,"text":"沒有關係我就確定這個機制有存在這個是我最主要想要問的目的至於細節我們不需要在公開的場合講那再延續剛剛那一個話題就再一個小問題就可以了就是說這個國際軍事教育訓練MET就是說現在各個國家他們很喜歡就是做這些相關的訓練然後互通友誼"},{"start":8912.153,"end":8934.941,"text":"那我在看我們這些資料的時候呢當然我們送出去的一些交流的官員大部分是中央層級的比較多啦那我這邊只是有一個小問題就是說其實我們在地方政府的層級對於我們整個的韌性這整個的建立其實也是有相當大的關係那我們目前當然因為我們是中央機關所以當然我們在"},{"start":8937.022,"end":8944.834,"text":"這個派人的時候大部分就是中央的交流那這種地方的這種交流目前來講我們有沒有可能稍微也做這些相關的規劃"},{"start":8947.197,"end":8966.753,"text":"對,我剛剛補充一下,我剛剛講到日本扮演重要角色,我想美國也都是各國扮演的非常重要的角色,它一直存在在印太這個區域。那我想我們跟美國相關的這些訓練的部分,也是我們長期以來緊密交流的一環。"},{"start":8967.914,"end":8988.626,"text":"委員問的意思是說我們派員的適切性還是說派員的廣闊性比較是廣闊性的問題適切性的部分本來是國安部就一直在檢討不管是各軍那另外廣闊性的部分就是他現在就會擴大到全社會防衛任性這一塊那因為"},{"start":8989.666,"end":9010.298,"text":"全社會防衛任性是這幾年來美方一直不斷的加強,那我們自己也不斷的持續盡盡努力所以現在這樣子的一個全社會防衛任性,一旦不只是我們國防部跟美國的軍方之間的應該還是整個跨部會都要參與的事務這樣子"},{"start":9011.638,"end":9030.752,"text":"對 這個跨部會我覺得是應該是目前來講是非常重要的方向那它是往橫的那現在就是說往縱的我們有沒有可能讓地方的層級來多一點參與我覺得可能是未來可以討論的一個方向不過這個當然就是這個當然不是不是廣播要直接主持的事情但我想知道就是這個大方向這個就會涉及到說"},{"start":9032.473,"end":9056.048,"text":"我們擴訓的問題啦也就是說我們派到美國不管是哪個部會哪個層級或者是怎樣那回來總是要在我們國內再進行擴訓因為不能夠單純借重那少數還要在國內把他列為種子教官然後或者是宣揚這個概念觀念跟作為然後在國內再進行透過演訓不斷的來強化這個能力"},{"start":9060.11,"end":9073.756,"text":"好沒問題謝謝部長我想說這個如果說我們先本來由中央去做交流但是往下回來的時候呢讓他獲訓可以到地方的層級這或許也是另外一種方式是是在軍事面跟社會方面都是如此好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":9094.11,"end":9119.454,"text":"您好,我們請部長請郭部長是,村委好部長好,部長現在說T3式膠原機這個狀況說關於彈射椅的部分是沒有辦法去裝上去的,是不是?現行的T3式是沒有辦法裝設彈射椅現行的機型沒有辦法現在的機型是沒有辦法的現在機型沒有辦法"},{"start":9120.194,"end":9137.627,"text":"那如果未來有這種重大的飛航狀況的時候那他們的逃生的方式有沒有在這次的事件之後有沒有監討說有什麼樣的方式可以做我們現在就是要籌購新式的出教機那新式出教機當然會將這個彈射座椅列為一個我們籌購的裝備"},{"start":9142.867,"end":9161.261,"text":"在新式塑膠機來到籌購的狀況,籌購的狀況是用國產還是商購,還是透過跟其他軍購的方式來得到?我們現在會請空軍做個評估,然後來報上來,我們明年5月30號以前會把它定案。"},{"start":9161.843,"end":9189.807,"text":"明年那我們再問就是說現在的T34的這樣子的機型他現在還要執行大概多久的大概預估還要再執行幾年的任務他現在差不多都在一萬三千小時那麼售期是到一萬六所以他每個每一架機的借售的期間不同那最快的一架應該是在一百二十一年那之後會"},{"start":9190.888,"end":9217.72,"text":"在12、123、124、125到陸續來接受所以用西元我比較2032年到2035年2032到2036差不多是所以到2036年也就是說現在到大概還要在服役"},{"start":9218.38,"end":9234.933,"text":"這是就接受的狀況,那我們現在就是說我們明年完成建案,117年能夠獲付之後獲付預算之後,那我們預期能夠取得這個除教基,我們就規劃是不是在119或120,也就是2020年"},{"start":9243.703,"end":9265.983,"text":"2031到2031年以前是不是能夠就獲得所以如果能夠更快速的取得我們的這個教研機之後那我們是希望說不要再借零就把它不用等到它這個到達這個最後的期限就可以提早退役是是 現在的規劃就是我們沒有要等到它借售我們現在就是"},{"start":9266.703,"end":9289.373,"text":"明年啟動完成建案之後,後年獲付預算之後,我們就盡速的來籌貨這個預算是放在公務預算嗎?現在是放在公務預算的規劃現在看到這個,聽到一些相關的陳情,他說現在的妥善率就是每日的妥善機最大是僅16架,是有這樣子的狀況嗎?"},{"start":9292.349,"end":9320.059,"text":"包委員這不是事實我們近十年都是滿足到我們步班的妥占率二十架以上二十架以上是所以有關相關的這個說法不是事實是所以這個我們每一個月都有報表也都有統計而且我們要求的很嚴格它的中位數出來之後我們會要求下一個月你只要超過前一個月的中位數我們都要檢討所以這十年偽商的情況都是符合我們的步班標準那有沒有"},{"start":9321.515,"end":9338.071,"text":"詢問到有沒有第一線的官兵有沒有提到狀態儀更新更換的問題就是說可能是做一些特殊的飛航技巧之後那狀況也會需要改憑 需要一段時間才能夠回正這樣的狀況是不是存在"},{"start":9338.752,"end":9351.973,"text":"在比較劇烈科目之後因為它這個是比較早期陀螺儀的狀態儀確實在大動作之後它的反應時間會比現在數位的稍微慢一點這個是一直以來都有的一個現象"},{"start":9352.813,"end":9376.891,"text":"那現有的狀態有沒有辦法做一些改進或者是有什麼樣的方式能夠把這個狀況因為沒有辦法你說現有的這個就是過去的這種狀態移那他當然沒有辦法做出數位的這種等級那現在有沒有什麼樣補正的狀況這個也提過相關的一些方案包含了數位式的這些也都有的評估那也都開了相關的會議來做一些討論"},{"start":9378.171,"end":9403.236,"text":"OK那是要包含所以會議討論的結果是什麼不好意思您剛剛的意思是目前前面之前有幾個方案但是有原廠四行認證的問題所以說後續又提出了一些改善的方式那這個一直都是在進行當中那目前還沒有做一個最後的決定那有沒有辦法用現在說原廠的認證但是原廠對這個機型是停產的那會不會有原廠認證沒有辦法執行的可能的狀況出現"},{"start":9406.977,"end":9422.274,"text":"我們在尋求一些替代的方案如果說他有提出一些可行的方案的話我們會做一些替代方案那包含我們自己國內的產能有沒有辦法做提出的改進改善案目前我們了解的在國內外都有這樣的一個狀態那國內建也是外購的"},{"start":9426.545,"end":9454.623,"text":"國內間也是外公那也就是說這是可以解決的問題嗎既然有人提出這樣子的問題第一線的官兵如果提出這樣的問題就你所知道是可以馬上來去做解決可以這麼說嗎如果經過你們檢討之後覺得可以替換可以更換可以升級的話那就可以馬上去做是如果程序都完備的話我們這也都是在討論的方向好那在這一次的事故出現之後那這個討論的方向是不是可以加速成為執行的方向"},{"start":9455.54,"end":9482.361,"text":"這我們會持續的進行因為看起來這個狀態也好啦或者是你說什麼空速表、隨速表等等這一些事關飛航安全的事情這一些是我們我國有能力就是在這個既有機型下面做一些升級改進的那就可以說在剛才部長提到的在新型的機型進來之前到我們這一個機型退役之後的這一個"},{"start":9482.901,"end":9501.974,"text":"相關的這個時間點我們還是能夠來去保障第一線的這個飛行人員的安全嘛對不對所以是不是這個就我們把檢討的時間能夠再更快速一點那盡快給他們換裝不然的話我們這樣子這個解決方案因為你說要這個為之或者是建案"},{"start":9502.674,"end":9514.891,"text":"到2033年的話那你現在還是有六七年那六七年的時候我們不能夠說今年就不做嘛我們就可以替換的零件升級的零組件我們就還是要必須來去做升級這個樣子有沒有問題啊"},{"start":9516.775,"end":9533.577,"text":"所以我們可以持續的進行那另外就是說帶飛的能量會不會嚴重不足因為我們看到其實隨著我們的這個編組我看你們編制教員是編制有32元那實際上只有17元是不是有這樣子的狀況"},{"start":9534.318,"end":9552.998,"text":"那個是聘僱教官跟聘僱教官要跟軍職教官來做一個搭配那目前確實我們T3是因為他是最初級的教練級所有的飛行學生都要到這個單位來做一個飛行訓練所以確實他們的這個work load會比較重一點我都擔心就是因為你剛剛提到的工作勤務過重"},{"start":9553.999,"end":9572.421,"text":"那我看到你們的這個編制僱二教員是32元實職是17元那軍職教官限有15元那二月是有七月啦還有兩個要退役那所以說每個人我們這樣除一除的話大概是他能夠帶飛的學生就只有1到3名"},{"start":9572.961,"end":9588.484,"text":"我意思是說這個人力流失的危機你們有沒有想辦法來去做補正 補救那第一個就是說我們首先就是教官的工作壓力如果增高的話特別是你們在空中飛行那壓力是非常大的有沒有想做一些解決的方案"},{"start":9590.185,"end":9612.172,"text":"跟委員報告,飛行員流失的問題在全世界的空軍裡面都非常嚴重在我們空軍也非常嚴重,所以說我們都會預判他的離退的這個地步我們的目前的到這個月為止,我們的飛行員的邊線比都還到90以上所以說我們會前置預判,或缺員的狀況來做一個補充那官校當然也是在我們補充的這個範圍"},{"start":9613.912,"end":9631.57,"text":"那報考的人員的狀況是不是也有一般都是會超過我們的預期數都會超過預期數好那針對這個空軍的部分我們就先到這邊請部長剛才就剛才質詢的問題特別是現階段能改善的方案是不是能夠加速讓他們來檢討"},{"start":9632.751,"end":9647.427,"text":"所以我請空軍做評估以後來提上來好那再來就是抱歉我們還是要講一下我們選區的這個國軍的弟兄那我們中埔鄉的這個弟兄那去年九月份成功領的這個狀況他"},{"start":9650.411,"end":9675.05,"text":"現在該員的狀況我看其實包含我們的這個民意代表還有他自己的家人都非常的重視那我們是有看到說三總現在有利用虛擬頭骨3D列印的這些技術也就是說未來因為意外總是會發生但是意外之後我們怎麼樣能夠給商員最好的救治狀況"},{"start":9676.351,"end":9694.524,"text":"那我認為接下來跟農總之間的這個協調合作那特別是像這樣子的很年輕的這個狀況就遇到這麼嚴重的強傷是不是可不可以請這個公安部來簡單講一下現在的狀況那以後的造福跟怎麼樣進行"},{"start":9696.065,"end":9721.193,"text":"是 包委員 這個目前該議員的話我們已經幫他補了兩次的頭骨不管是顱骨底跟這個外殼外頭的這個外殼的地方都已經幫他補好了那後面的後續我們會加強這個對他的這個神經的修復跟復健的部分我們繼續加強非常感謝 因為其實這真的很年輕那再感謝國防部的協助那希望還可以持續關心好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9727.08,"end":9728.56,"text":"謝謝 接下來請劉許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長是 林委員"},{"start":9745.66,"end":9765.056,"text":"部長午安,辛苦了。這個根據今天國防部提供的相關報告的文本,國防部一直都講說有一直在盤點國軍的裝備,那也規劃太足其成。這本席之前在質詢的時候也提到,就是老舊裝備的定期太足,而且這個高效率的太足,也有助於增加財政紀律,讓財政的穩定性可以更好。"},{"start":9765.797,"end":9787.905,"text":"那這個最近又發生的這個T-34C教練機不幸墜毀有飛官殉職這樣子的一個不幸的這樣子的一個意外那今天非常多的委員其實都提到相關的一些問題本席也有準備一些相關的問題但我今天的質詢重點是放在說如果我們只談個案而沒有從通案就沒有辦法看見全貌通案檢討才能夠防範於未然"},{"start":9789.105,"end":9802.335,"text":"今天的教練機的墜機當然是有有一定這樣的因素存在但是裝備的老舊如何來做處理我想是一個非常重要的事所以本席是要求一個通案這個我們有一個說法叫做消失性傷源也就是說這個"},{"start":9804.216,"end":9831.107,"text":"消失性商源的武器裝備表示武器系統它仍在服役可是說原廠、零件供應商、材料供應商基於各式各樣的理由它停產了或者是它倒閉了或者是它退出市場了也就是說有所謂的斷料的這樣一個危機造成後勤維持的處理困難所以我們叫它做消失性商源有這樣一個說法因為當發生這樣的事情的時候大家就要去尋找替代的一個"},{"start":9833.623,"end":9862.445,"text":"這個來源嘛那當然在T34C現在講還不算這個消失性傷源因為目前為止還可以還可以找到料還可以繼續來做維修保養但本期要提的概念是這樣就是針對消失性傷源啊不只是針對T34C的這個初級教練級而是所有我們的武器裝備系統設備有沒有可能變成所謂的消失性傷源也就是消失性傷源這件事情的風險評估分析啊請問國防部有沒有定期來做完整的盤點跟檢討"},{"start":9863.619,"end":9892.308,"text":"是 我想消失性傷眼如果足以影響到安全的話就是我們所講的屬於個人裝備安全能不能安全使用的問題嘛那剛剛空軍消防長市長也提到像西澳山洞他還沒有接受起但是他現在有確實面臨一些消失性傷眼那這些尤其是飛機的這些關鍵的一些零附件等等如果有消失性傷眼當然沒有辦法找到替代方案"},{"start":9893.068,"end":9905.701,"text":"這個的話既沒有接受起,那也要開始檢討,要怎麼來進行相關的這些...就是要汰除或是替代嗎?這樣子的一個措施。對,不想講這個跟我的認知是完全一樣,因為有些每個武器裝備都有它的壽命,比如說舉個例子來講,這B-52轟炸機從二戰一路用到現在,對不對?但因為它是美國國產,對不對?"},{"start":9916.292,"end":9942.55,"text":"它的裝備線等等要升級要怎麼樣它沒有消失性傷害的問題所以即便這時間是比譬如說T34C-1T還要更長當然要繼續來做使用所以關鍵我們到底要不要汰換相關的武器設備其實是你的料源是否穩定嘛是否能夠穩定的升級跟持續來做處理所以本期要講的不是只有T34C啦這本期有發文希望國防部提供相關資料也就是我們所有的武器裝備現在針對這個消失性傷害的風險評估啊"},{"start":9946.053,"end":9964.233,"text":"這個部長剛剛舉1130對不對還有沒有哪一些這樣子的例子就我在國防部自己內部的定期盤點裡面比如它是高風險這很快在兩三年之內它就有消失性傷源的風險國防部在定義消失性傷源的風險有沒有一套完整有系統性的機制這是本期今天想要請教的重點"},{"start":9965.144,"end":9993.521,"text":"對對,我們都會依照這個定期的這個技術會議,我們會研討這些消失性傷癌可以比如我現在舉個例子,剛剛提到西凹山洞它是消失性傷癌但另外有個例子就是IDF,我們的IDF實際上也超過30年那所以我們就必須要做一個性能提升的案子然後所以有可能是性能提升,有可能要延售等等的那這些都要來做評估,所以"},{"start":9995.682,"end":10017.85,"text":"剛剛舉的剛好就兩個例子一個西遙山洞還沒有接受但是消息上確實有我想請教的是說國防部在這個裡面有沒有客觀標準比如說經過一定的評估比如說在三年之內可能有斷料等等就是最高風險等等那我們希望說不是只是這個出事了才解決而是藉由這樣的一個機會好好來做徹底的盤點跟檢討哪些東西要提早來做汰換而且提早跟立法院來做溝通"},{"start":10018.59,"end":10044.385,"text":"像這種已經有斷料風險了那當然在預算上大家就絕對不會為難因為你要盡快來進行太阻嘛我們內部的那個內控的機制是什麼這請部長貴後來討論好不好我們現在頒布一個就是太阻檢討的原則嘛那就包括有不合作案需求使用效益不當不符修復成本跟預售期那不符修復成本裡面就含那個消失因商員跟籌補不易的品項的檢討這樣"},{"start":10046.246,"end":10065.475,"text":"好 你是會後相關提供的這個相關的資料就是大家來做一次性的一個盤點不只是針對這個事情來做徹底的檢討這是本期的第一個問題喔第二個就T34C這個事情喔這個剛剛我聽了其他委員的這個詢答部長也有回應啦這暫時還不屬於消失性傷源嘛對不對因為目前還算是OK但是他什麼時候會死"},{"start":10066.335,"end":10084.114,"text":"我現在講的問題就是說延續為什麼講要有個客觀的標準就是說我要隨時進行風險評估嘛這我在幾年之內會遇到這樣子的一個問題因為很多委員也提到啊其他各國都已經針對這個初級教練機已經在做汰換了T-34的初級教練機是美國的比奇公司來做研製嘛"},{"start":10084.594,"end":10100.015,"text":"那鼻息公司它也經過併購改組重新成立等等那其實你從這個初級教練機這個產品線來看它最新的其實是T6A嘛這個德州人24嘛這樣的初級教練機基本在各國也都在美軍裡面或是在其他國家大概都是取代T34C嘛"},{"start":10101.176,"end":10117.706,"text":"換言之 既然它都有最新技術 新的產線各國也都在採購新型的初級教練機那就表示T34C的市場會持續來做萎縮持續的萎縮的時候不符合經濟效益不符合經濟效益 它就減產到停產就會變成消失性傷害的狀況請問國防部內部的評估這個過程大概會多長的時間"},{"start":10121.688,"end":10139.297,"text":"第一個就是說734C現在它沒有消息性上限的問題但是有關我還要進一步說明我們不只是對消息性上限因為飛機有涉及到機體的結構所以我們就要依照這個依既定來實施一個檢查那這個包括這個"},{"start":10141.18,"end":10150.431,"text":"機體的檢查機體狀況的評估還有一個在場修的時候我們還要做一些非破壞性的檢查來確認"},{"start":10154.298,"end":10175.761,"text":"集體的結構在服役期間是安全的所以這些都是屬於我們要檢查評估的一個項目那如果剛剛講的就是說消息商員剛剛講如果確定沒有辦法能夠獲得那而且又影響到備案的時候那這個時候就是要優先來做處理優先來做的我今天之所以一定要談說為什麼"},{"start":10176.922,"end":10195.098,"text":"內部一定要有一個風險評估的機制或一個客觀的標準的原因就是在這邊其實大家這雖然講得比較不好聽一點也就請部長見諒這我們今天因為你回答的時候也很清楚嘛T34C已經要正式列入台灣集成嘛包含你前面有提到嘛這117年列入預算明年就要完成所謂的建案對不對但當然不免會問啊"},{"start":10195.959,"end":10221.816,"text":"是因為發生了不幸事故所以他把其中提前了嗎還是說他本來就符合一定的客觀風險評估的機制我國防部預先掌握因為有斷料或者是維修成本不符成本等等的一個風險所以我本來就要在這個時候做汰換這個事情是要清楚的我希望得到的是國防部一直都針對這些有高風險的事情提早掌握嘛然後提早來做處理這樣才不會讓大家覺得說頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳出了事情之後大家再亡羊補牢"},{"start":10222.136,"end":10227.325,"text":"當然王永浦是對的 但我們都希望可以料底於前嘛 是不是 部長對 就是說委員"},{"start":10228.507,"end":10253.583,"text":"指教的這個很對,就是說我們不會應該不是指證的T3C,包括我們三軍的所有的這些裝備我想我們都會納入我們在檢討它的安全我想操作的安全性是裝備妥善率評估的重要項目之一那裝備的操作安全性我們一定要每一種,因為陸海空軍所有的裝備"},{"start":10254.783,"end":10270.831,"text":"都不一樣,所以每個案子都要來納入整體的檢討對,我希望國防部盡量如果有相關的客觀的標準依據,我剛剛有講會有請提供相關的資料因為也有一些我們聽到基層的反應或聲音來講就是說國防部在汰換我們這麼多的武器設備"},{"start":10271.431,"end":10288.071,"text":"那台灣的時候我當然以戰力為優先這個可以理解啊我們有立即性的國防需求嘛對不對可是相關的訓練的後勤的他可能在內部取捨的時候他的順序比較後面那這個當然來講這長期以來難免會有一些風險的存在所以我在講一個客觀有效的標準很重要嘛只要他符合這個客觀標準的時候這個"},{"start":10289.833,"end":10319.511,"text":"到了該超前部署就要超前部署啦好最後一點時間我想請教一下部長這個負責T34C後勤維修現在交給漢祥公司來做處理那漢祥公司當然沒有特別講但他們的工會理事長曾經有講過相關的聲明就講說妥善綠方面面臨不小的挑戰維修的成本攀升啊零附件因為國際供應鏈的變化越來越難取得這其實我剛剛這本期剛剛有提到的嘛可能慢慢走向一個高風險的這樣一個狀況原廠的資源能力也逐一下降那後勤維護的壓力也日益增加"},{"start":10320.635,"end":10325.691,"text":"那現在國防部內部對於這樣子的一個說法你們的回應是什麼你們對於這件事情的掌握是什麼"},{"start":10327.441,"end":10355.52,"text":"歐元 還是跟委員報告他的近十年的妥善率這個是數字上面統計的全部都是符合我們部班的要求而且都是在20架以上這是每一天都有報表那這個是有疾可循的那零附件的供給的部分我們按照現在庫儲就是我們講的Top 5這個五項最容易缺件的那目前至少都可以滿足28到29架的這個備份件的量所以說這個部分供給的部分到目前為止是沒有問題的"},{"start":10356.841,"end":10371.78,"text":"就後勤補給的部分但是他的取得難度有沒有提升當然會越來越難也是越來越難嘛對不對所以我來講嘛就一套客觀的評估標準他其實是非常重要今天如果國安部有一個完整的客觀標準然後你今天講我要趕快做汰除我想大家都會非常非常來同意啦"},{"start":10372.073,"end":10395.667,"text":"好那今天的問題大概就是這樣我最後請教一下因為這部長部分好像也沒有很明確的答案嘛就是說因為大家也在關心啊這個因為不管怎麼樣我們都有這個消失性傷源的風險客觀存在但是同樣我們要像部長剛剛講的我們要考量各式各樣的成本取得等等那現在如果要重新做汰除T34C的這一部分到底我們未來會採取國造的方式呢還是會採取採購的方式"},{"start":10397.108,"end":10425.917,"text":"再補充說明一下吧我先請空軍做個評估,評估以後報到國防部來所以我這邊就講說我們明年建案完成以前一定會有個定案這樣子所以現在在內部討論的階段我請空軍先做一個最世界的評估還要做世界評估,這個評估的結果大概什麼時候會出來因為我們當然希望趕快追蹤這個事嘛我想無論明年差不多要完成建案五月底前完成建案的話那我想明年"},{"start":10427.282,"end":10454.99,"text":"年初應該差不多明年年初會有初步的評估報告會有一個確定的評估你今天要走哪一條路其實都有道理它各有優缺嘛那我講一個客觀的標準很明確的符合效益等等很明確的可以跟國會來做清楚的說明跟社會大眾來做清楚的說明我相信大家都不會太為難但這部分我一定要最後再次強調拜託國防部提供相關的客觀評估標準的資料這樣我們才有辦法通盤的檢討去避免這樣的悲劇再次發生 可以嗎"},{"start":10455.93,"end":10463.472,"text":"好 謝謝 辛苦了 部長 謝謝好 謝謝 接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長如果其他相關業務權責的官員需要補充回應的就請自行上台來"},{"start":10486.452,"end":10504.009,"text":"部長好 我想今天的題目當中大家都有提到就是上週發生的不幸事件其實都沒有人希望看到只是目前我們應該還是在等這個完整的報告出來才會整個了解到T34的這個所謂初級教練機到底發生什麼事"},{"start":10504.629,"end":10508.835,"text":"所以我不知道前面的委員是不是有特別去關心到說現在這個整體的調查報告的進度跟狀況那麼目前有沒有調查報告的進度大概什麼時候會完整的出來"},{"start":10519.247,"end":10542.576,"text":"我們現在除了要完成現場殘骸的勘察跟標定的計時座位這已經完成以外我們還要做私機體的重建然後還有殘骸的辨識問訊也要做人員的訪談我們應該要綜合相關的事證再做一個比較分析對,所以有沒有抓一個時間點來確認這個到底什麼時候會知道這樣一個答案"},{"start":10547.489,"end":10563.103,"text":"目前一般我想這個飛機的一級事件調查都是有一定的實現的所以我想我們確定以後再跟委員做報告其實本席認為就是一個事件的發生就是絕對不可能"},{"start":10565.945,"end":10569.367,"text":"是有單點的狀況啦那麼因為前面很多委員都已經有詢詢了包括這個汰換的節奏啊甚至於新型後續建案的過程所以我就不特別來針對這個部分來做詢問了因為本席為什麼會問到特別調查報告的進度就是如果說今天只是從個案我們就在國會殿堂不斷地討論這個個案可是這個個案"},{"start":10588.16,"end":10598.224,"text":"真正的調查報告都還沒有出來的時候那麼其實現在的感覺就好像是在霧裡看花所有的質詢好像只是想要拉一個人到國會殿堂上面來鞭打給大家看我個人覺得其實是不適當的"},{"start":10604.406,"end":10608.408,"text":"但是我要問到的問題其實也跟這個太舊換新的相關的問題有關就是我們才剛審完這個就是國防部的預算雖然說現在已經六月了但是我們才剛出委員會2026年的預算就今年才剛出委員會而其中其實本席當時有特別提到也有關心過這個中海艦的問題"},{"start":10626.835,"end":10648.961,"text":"在這些要淘汰的這些所謂大型的軍備的時候我們現在是有所謂國軍無效裝備汰除作業規定跟國軍廢舊及不適用物資的處理作業規定可是現在說實話像中海艦它就面臨一個狀況部長知道現在中海艦停在哪裡嗎"},{"start":10650.562,"end":10666.76,"text":"應該是 旗津旗津嘛那麼其實我們現在還在編預算來做一個維護但是它已經被太舊了狀況就是在於說現在它到底要怎麼樣來後續做使用我所聽到的是"},{"start":10667.875,"end":10682.74,"text":"他就放在那很多的地方政府或者是你希望他成為文化物資也許是在我們的這個所謂接下來的軍事陳列或者是相關的這個所謂武器陳列但是因為他非常的龐大"},{"start":10683.9,"end":10697.916,"text":"所以我今天要就教的是在這樣的所謂軍備淘汰之後雖然有辦法但是它真的有實際的輔助符合我們現在把它作為教育用展覽用"},{"start":10698.797,"end":10725.205,"text":"或者是作為軍使用這個部分未來是不是有一個更通盤的方式而不是只是單純我們現在到的所謂的太舊作業辦法時間到了就像剛剛前面很多在講到的T34比如說到了它的所謂的授旗那麼要做淘汰那麼其他我們在面對這樣淘汰的時候有沒有一個更符合現在所需要的不然我們就會跟中海艦一樣面對就是"},{"start":10726.846,"end":10748.5,"text":"要不斷的編預算中海建應該是比較特殊因為它是被列為那個文化遺產對那麼如果如果譬如說譬如說我們要把它作為成展那可能我們我們也不一定要全建來成長我們可能可能說比方把它"},{"start":10750.533,"end":10770.62,"text":"然後把它重要的部分來做成長讓人家知道可是現在因為這樣的應該把它列為那個應該是穩物就變成連這樣子的一個作為都不行那要怎麼樣子來做一個成展然後就讓我們"},{"start":10772.453,"end":10785.183,"text":"因為確實有面臨很大的一些困擾我們並不是不可以把它做成展但是要考慮到我講的坦白一點如果說它是可以"},{"start":10786.479,"end":10813.418,"text":"被做不必要的切割切割比如說那這樣的話這個成展的場地就可以比較容易來找尋而且我們也可以比較可以有容納的地方然後又不損及它的歷史的典藏的價值其實這是一個比較適切的方案但是如果說你說全建這麼大一手這個要怎麼做這件事情是讓我們傷腦筋那這個是比較特殊的啦因為除了"},{"start":10814.478,"end":10830.201,"text":"這其他件是沒有沒有這樣的問題因為本席會提出來這個就是他現在被列為文化資產保護法的時候他就變成是在文化資產上面有他一定處理的方式但是每次我們在看這個預算的時候其實我去年就看過"},{"start":10830.822,"end":10833.744,"text":"那今年因為時間很趕我會特別利用質詢的時候來提起就是可能很多人沒有注意到這樣的問題可是這個對於我們國防預算來講他的錢是不是花在刀口上但是有沒有一個協調的可能包括當時雖然現在被列為文化資產了"},{"start":10848.854,"end":10852.938,"text":"他需要被保護下來可是他的艦艇這麼大就像部長您剛剛也說了他具有展覽的價值具有文化資產的價值但是這樣的一個艦艇的體積如此的龐大有沒有可能跟文化部或相關的單位我們來做一個有效的溝通尤其是委員在這邊做質詢的"},{"start":10869.516,"end":10881.958,"text":"我也認同應該把它保存下來可是它的保存下來需要這麼大的量體這麼需要這麼大的體積包括接下來未來我們再蓋進軍博館我相信就算放進軍博館恐怕應該也放不下去吧"},{"start":10882.725,"end":10900.604,"text":"對不對那如果是這樣因為他跟我們一般的古蹟文物不一樣一棟古老的建築他原本就在那裡所以他必須要用文化資產保護法他保護下來但是今天中海建的問題我想他變成是他停在"},{"start":10901.365,"end":10912.47,"text":"港灣它也是佔了一個空間然後我們要編預算然後接下來我們可能甚至於找不到它的展覽的場地所以今天我們剛好談到有關於太舊的事情我也特別把這個問題提出來給國防部參考那麼是不是重新的找文化部或者是認定的單位"},{"start":10922.095,"end":10943.624,"text":"雖然他用文化資產保護法在保護他但是這樣的保護到底有沒有他實際上可以被運用的部分包括部長你也提到了嘛他要展示的時候如果無法做其他的切割或者是必要的取捨他就會變成一直擺在那裡而無法達到真正的實際作用"},{"start":10944.617,"end":10964.002,"text":"對 也就是說文資的保存主要還是有它的目的那在核目的性的範圍之內 怎麼樣做好這個文資的保存是不是一定要說權監都不能夠去完全去動它還是說可以有其他更好的文資保存的方式"},{"start":10965.744,"end":10978.26,"text":"我是請他們來去跟那個認定的單位我們再來做個協商那這個可能還要涉及到當時文字保存的委員們所以要同意那這個我會來請他們來跟他們再協調看看這樣子"},{"start":10982.085,"end":11006.776,"text":"因為這個題目有人重視然後有人質詢我相信也會有助於國防部來處理跟解決這樣的一個問題那麼當然我要問到的是有關於強化美台合作作戰能力的部分在這個6月4號的時候聯合新聞網有一篇這個華府智庫捍衛民主基金會的資深研究員蒙哥馬利的分析他特別提到因為他本身是一個退役的海軍少將"},{"start":11009.658,"end":11025.35,"text":"標題內容呢我覺得我抓出來的重點是他來提醒就是當我們要跟美方聯合作戰的時候最重要的是我們有能力跟他們在聯合的過程中對得上平言下之意就是在我們國防的武器"},{"start":11027.452,"end":11045.891,"text":"的包括內容以及先進程度也要跟美方能夠匹配但是我們都知道啦現在我們國防特別預算當中我們特別刪掉了不只是只有軍購啦就是我們刪掉的部分其實還有包括了一些相關的所謂決策指管的這個部分其實"},{"start":11046.972,"end":11051.736,"text":"就已經沒有這樣的預算了那麼事實上我在這個財政委員會當時講到有關於國防預算的部分的時候也問過了主計長了主計長也說現在不論是無人機又或者是這個所謂決策執管的這個部分被刪掉的有些部分其實如果邊境年度預算就會被排擠那麼其實美方現在也提醒我們了"},{"start":11068.089,"end":11085.284,"text":"就是武器要跟上指揮系統也得跟上那麼在這個部分的話部長有經過了這段時間之後有跟主計單位跟我們自己內部做了了解那麼就是該如何接下來面對這個所謂戰力缺口該怎麼樣把它補足我想"},{"start":11088.769,"end":11115.78,"text":"第一個就是說我們感謝美方這個退役將領的提醒那台美之間的這個軍事交流一向是很緊密的那我想相關的細節沒有辦法多做說明那有一些項目涉及到的這些不管是資管決策或者是相關一些無人機跟無人機的反制系統等等我們現在就是"},{"start":11116.6,"end":11122.127,"text":"我們檢討,那有些部分會納入年度預算那當然我們不下年度預算"},{"start":11123.089,"end":11146.998,"text":"有一個排擠的效果因為我們還有後續的新增建案要繼續運行然後另外一個就有可能是提出追加預算那這個部分的我們要跟主計總處來做個協調那特別條例的這個部分我想我們也要根據追加預算跟我們的年度預算的情況我們再來做最後的決定這樣子"},{"start":11147.418,"end":11165.14,"text":"本席最後會提到這個部分還是這樣意外發生沒有人願意但是我們要讓第一線的國防弟兄在國軍弟兄在上戰場的時候要有最精準精良跟最優秀的武器而不是事後我們現在安排這個然後感覺上射箭劃靶"},{"start":11166.061,"end":11180.466,"text":"要找人來負責任如果負責任的做法就是預算給他們讓他們不要裸奔上戰場這是本席其實最後一個要提醒也希望在質詢的時候講出來的謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":11196.092,"end":11200.957,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請我們郭力雄部長請部長部長請問一下 我們現在服役的T-34出叫機到底能不能在另外裝設那個彈射座椅"},{"start":11216.853,"end":11237.561,"text":"沒有辦法沒有辦法那我們現在國防部的對外說法仍然是要到服役到2033年是嗎我們現在剛有跟委員其他委員報告了我們在明年完成建案之後117年獲付預算之後我們可以在119年或120年就可以獲得這個新機的這個"},{"start":11244.028,"end":11257.936,"text":"如果產沒有問題的話我們希望在119或120可以獲得新機的貨裝所以按照原來的服役的年限大概提早兩年到三年最多只能提早兩年到三年嗎"},{"start":11264.451,"end":11292.712,"text":"我們現在就要按照我們的建案程序來沒有 剛才部長講就說如果這個他的這個就是來得及的話是在119年到120年因為117年貨戶預算之後嘛那我們還這個飛機還有交機的一個問題嗎交機的一個 按照他的產能能夠進行交機所以在此之前我們T-34出交機還是要造飛嗎"},{"start":11294.753,"end":11305.707,"text":"我們會完善它的相關的這些安檢的一個要求如何完善呢?如果連彈射座椅都沒有辦法裝設的話,安裝的話,如何完善呢?"},{"start":11312.056,"end":11334.338,"text":"彈射座椅當然是提高安全性的一個做法那因為這型機在民國74年貨裝的時候就是沒有一個彈射座椅,那使用汽精所以我們也想要瞭解能不能安裝彈射座椅那現實上就是說這型機沒有辦法去安裝彈射座椅沒有辦法,其實早就知道沒有辦法了"},{"start":11335.218,"end":11351.386,"text":"但是一直讓他在飛部長我想請問一下我們就是在符合我們的安全的要求之下我們國家培養一個飛行時數可以超過2000小時的資深的飛官我們的國家在一個飛官上要花多少錢我想每一個飛官都是我們重要的一個"},{"start":11360.331,"end":11385.453,"text":"對 應該是無價吧 應該就是說我們所以我就不懂了在上週發生造成兩名資深飛官造成兩位無價的兩名飛官死亡的T-34出教機今天我們安排這個專案報告為什麼報告可以通篇都沒有T-34出教機的派換或者你們的計畫呢"},{"start":11386.793,"end":11405.295,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這個是召委所安排的它是一個整體的,那它沒有針對任何一個個案來做沒有錯啊,所以我們是就整體來做說明我現在看你們裡面裝的就是要汰換的東西也寫得非常多啊"},{"start":11406.916,"end":11421.902,"text":"戰甲車、火炮、艦艇、資源艦什麼防空雷達、通信裝備等等可是像這些我們所長期大家在關注的包含T-34的出教機其實我們事實上"},{"start":11423.502,"end":11444.533,"text":"很多載人裝備現在雖然他還沒有到一個就是接受的時間可是其實都已經出現了裝備老舊舊還有他的傷源消失的問題比如說你這個海軍S70C的反潛直升機他的服役時間長達35年"},{"start":11446.694,"end":11472.736,"text":"現在也面臨了航電設備的商源消失以及現在後援的後勤的維保壓力也是越來越重所以為什麼像我在這邊所提出來的他們的服役超過30年甚至海軍500MD的帆潛直升機服役都將近50年了為什麼像這些載人的裝備"},{"start":11475.083,"end":11489.479,"text":"極為老舊也應該進行汰換或者他都有這些相關的零件還有設備商員消失的問題都不在你們這份報告上了"},{"start":11490.1,"end":11516.616,"text":"我就覺得我納悶的是我們為什麼會專注在這次專注在T-34出交機是因為它已經造成我們國軍弟兄的罹難T-34這個出交機不是第一次發生問題它陸陸續續已經有13起的事故造成我們12名飛官的上升但是竟然在今天的報告裡面可以一個字都不見"},{"start":11518.311,"end":11528.857,"text":"所以我不理解今天我們對於國防預算我們年年要提高國防預算現在也要提高到已經超過GDP的3%了未來還要朝GDP的5%去邁進可是為什麼我們這些在人的裝備卻不升級也不汰換"},{"start":11539.81,"end":11568.672,"text":"而且已經發生問題之後還是按照原來的方式去進行這我就不懂我覺得我自己身為母親我不大理解你今天告訴我們每年以未來都是一兆的光是公務預算不講特別預算喔公務預算就高達一年起碼叫一兆但是像這樣載人的裝備部長也承認這些飛官都是我們國家跟國軍的無價之寶"},{"start":11570.544,"end":11597.64,"text":"為什麼沒有在這些檢討報告裡面部長可不可以給我們所有這些國軍弟兄他們的家屬他們的父母他們的妻子一個答案跟委員報告就是您上面這個所寫的個案的部分我們在報告裡面就是因為做整體的說明所以沒有個別來說明那有關個別的部分包括X拐動的反潛直升機跟500MD的反潛直升機那這個就是涉及到說"},{"start":11598.83,"end":11624.62,"text":"我們有在我們納入要檢討規劃的之類那當然就是有希望能夠獲得新式的繁險的直升機然後那在這個中間我們當然就要進到我們的這個裝備安全的一個前提那如果這個裝備維持它的安全性那我們在還沒有獲得這個新式的裝備之前為了戰力沒有間隙我們在"},{"start":11625.8,"end":11649.571,"text":"操作的安全性跟裝備的安全性的前提之下,我們會維持它的一個妥善,然後來執行。那如果說,剛剛也提到,如果說像西夭山洞,您這裡有提到的,它雖然還沒有達到它的受限,可是因為有涉及到一些消失性傷原的問題,所以會有影響安全的問題的時候,我們就要提前規劃來做這個籌購。"},{"start":11653.274,"end":11668.728,"text":"我們覺得非常重要不要在下一次的悲劇發生的時候我們才再做檢討因為T34的出教機它不是第一次過去也發生過然後呢告訴我們說F51呢這個彈射座椅這個要採購然後也可以裝在這個T34的出教機結果發現根本不能裝根本沒有"},{"start":11680.014,"end":11697.658,"text":"然後所以國人沒有辦法理解沒有辦法理解就是像這樣的一個教練機竟然連彈射座椅都沒有然後還要讓我們的軍官在上面這樣子飛發生事情之後真的國人沒有辦法理解我們花這麼多錢到底我們要買什麼我們要汰換什麼"},{"start":11700.259,"end":11726.74,"text":"所以還是希望國防部針對我們剛才所說的包含T-SENS的除膠劑還有這些載人的設備載人的裝備我覺得這才是我們預算要花在刀口上至少要讓我們國軍弟兄他們在服役的時候至少讓他的家屬能夠安心好不好這非常重要是是因為中委報告您講的S拐動C跟海軍M"},{"start":11727.701,"end":11743.183,"text":"500MD 它這個也涉及到說我們有沒有辦法拿到這個供售的一個意願才能夠進行這樣的汰換那這個汰換之前我們一定會維持它的裝備的妥善這我了解 但是這個就是我們要去爭取的"},{"start":11743.263,"end":11763.816,"text":"我們常常在講軍購軍購我們其實長期被詬病的就是我們要買的買不到然後人家只給我們他們要賣的那像這個事實上是我們要買的這個部分很多時候我們在講軍購變成籌碼這個部分是不是也可以變成一個籌碼呢"},{"start":11765.417,"end":11782.112,"text":"是不是也可以變成一個籌碼我的籌碼就是像這個是我們急需的在未來這些有關軍購的問題的時候在談的時候能不能把這些當成優先的項目這點非常重要我們會來努力謝謝接下來請王逸川委員上台質詢"},{"start":11798.362,"end":11801.064,"text":"謝謝召委 請顧部長請顧部長是 王委員好部長 我們的這個國防預算這個今年的國防預算也省了大概到一個段落了針對今天這個題目在我們審查過程中有沒有哪一些項目跟今天的題目有關然後被凍結跟刪除"},{"start":11830.123,"end":11856.659,"text":"您說T34的部分沒有 全部全部啊就是說我們國防預算大概上禮拜省的差不多了嘛那有些凍結啦 有些怎麼樣這一些跟我們今天的題目啊有沒有相關啊還是你們在安排這些相關的這個太儲配到的規劃的時候啊其實在今年的預算審查都還算順利"},{"start":11859.009,"end":11879.521,"text":"現在我想主要還是有一些保留的18案的部分,我們希望能夠在草野協商黨團協商的時候,希望能夠獲得支持其他在委員會的部分,我想就三檢數來講,我們有經過跟每個委員來做進行協商"},{"start":11886.654,"end":11901.623,"text":"今天這個題目有沒有哪一些項目被保留,就是這些沒有順利完成通過照列的部分裡頭,跟今天這個題目有相關的我為什麼要這樣問,就是說"},{"start":11905.776,"end":11913.459,"text":"整天早上大家都吃雞翅,我們國安部提出這個計劃,有時候都欠太慢,為了當時能夠擁有,能夠完成,當你們要來的時候,你們不知道要民國幾年,大家都會煩惱這個,很多委員會煩惱這個,我的意思是說,"},{"start":11925.936,"end":11947.966,"text":"今年的預算裡頭,有沒有哪一些因為這些保留或者是慢下去,會影響到我們今天這個第一步往前推進?我們現在因為那個預算雖然沒有審完,可是我們今天的這個案子主要都會列在作為費也是比較多的"},{"start":11948.516,"end":11971.614,"text":"所以座位費如果沒有超過去年的那個座位的額度的話,我們還是可以執行我們還是可以執行所以沒有什麼問題就整體的這個後勤的維護的部分,我們還是持續的在進行所以就是說我們這個國軍老舊族要裝備太儲的期程"},{"start":11972.472,"end":11999.942,"text":"跟今年預算審查的這個期程啊相關的這些內容不會有什麼樣的影響應該說迄今為止還沒有影響委員會審查這個過程沒有什麼影響委員的審查就因為我們還是在座位會的部分是有有一些刪減嘛但是我想還是在我們可以因應的範圍之內"},{"start":12002.054,"end":12026.486,"text":"那我們現在進行中的案子你們在建案中的案子有沒有哪一些要太舊的是非常具體因為預算你剛剛提到有一些要編到明年後年去有一些哪一些比較具體的建案可能在這一兩年會完成然後編列預算以後讓我們的實際在操作這些國軍弟兄"},{"start":12027.748,"end":12031.465,"text":"聽起來跟放心的有沒有拿一些比較具體的跟大家講一下"},{"start":12033.043,"end":12060.512,"text":"我覺得比較 我們比較有兩個部分一個就是無人機的部分這個現在在特別預算被刪除那無人機跟無人艇的這個部分我們要納入那還是要怎麼跟納入法還是希望能夠委員多支持那另外一個是那個資管決策的系統這個部分我們也可能要考慮再納入那希望這個也都可以得到委員的支持這樣子"},{"start":12064.134,"end":12077.3,"text":"中央兵委員會拿一個無人機的專法在立法院的院會裡頭這個案子就沒有被排進接下來要進行委員會進一度這補充你跟我們說一下"},{"start":12081.765,"end":12106.087,"text":"現在我們無人機大隊也逐步在編程還有部隊的無人機的中隊也逐步在編程所以我們現在就是說如果有編但是沒有裝的話這個會有一些困擾所以我們還是希望在無人載具的部分不管是無人機或無人艇都能夠得到大院的支持能夠早日能夠籌貨"},{"start":12109.19,"end":12127.771,"text":"至於是用什麼方式,我想我們會做最後的一個演繹,然後提到大院來,再請大院能夠支持應該討論,因為接下來每年的議程,你們可能八月也要行政院也要上來,所以也有可能在那個地方把預算編進去"},{"start":12130.136,"end":12144.525,"text":"有可能還會有追加預算追加預算是今年的追加預算有可能想中加兵委員提一個特別條例嗎?這有一個方案裡面嗎?"},{"start":12146.667,"end":12174.283,"text":"有在規劃的方案的思考範圍之內,但是我們還沒有定案還沒有定案,就是講了有三個方式嘛,履駕以上,年度駕以上,還有這個特別條例,特別預算大概就三個還沒有做最後的定案但是無論如何,無人機這件事,我們的國家就是一定要做就對了對,因為無人機是我們現在重要的這個"},{"start":12176.347,"end":12195.392,"text":"因為不管從二五戰爭或者美伊衝突都可以看得出來這個新型態戰爭情況之下無人機是一個關鍵的戰力那它要涉及到很多我們認為應該要看重的就是說它構成一個"},{"start":12197.336,"end":12208.796,"text":"相對於我們面對中國這樣的一個威脅它是一個不對稱戰力的一個重要的一環那對於這樣不對稱戰力重要的一個建構"},{"start":12209.952,"end":12228.133,"text":"又再進一步涉及到我們國內的國防自主那涉及到國防自主不只是自主這個概念而已而是在自主的狀況之下才能夠在面臨任何的緊急的狀況之下我們有一個韌性因為如果我們是個海島國家嘛"},{"start":12228.653,"end":12247.63,"text":"我們無人機必須要被大量的消耗那在無人機被大量消耗的前提之下,我們必須要快速的在國內能夠自行來構建不管是利用3D列印的,然後相關的這些模組,然後相關的這些"},{"start":12248.751,"end":12268.704,"text":"導航的系統然後相當的不斷的來迭代更新這個都能夠在國內有這個能力那國內廠商也都有能夠投入那我們也透過這些比較長期的規劃跟國外能夠技術廠商透過這些合作那我想這對整個"},{"start":12270.463,"end":12295.923,"text":"從不正正戰力的後面來看,然後透過國防支組在建立防衛韌性這整套其實是就無人系統來講是扮演非常非常吃重的一個角色所以我們希望這個部分的預算能夠早日獲補好,那謝謝部長繼續加油這幾個方案持續再往前推進,讓大家包括國軍大家都更有信心好,謝謝好,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":12301.189,"end":12309.461,"text":"接下來請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請黃仁 黃仁 黃仁委員不在請黃建斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":12328.732,"end":12330.474,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們有請顧部長 請顧部長"},{"start":12341.431,"end":12369.23,"text":"我想今天大家大概討論的就是跟這一次T34T34這個初級救援機一直在講這個話題那這一次這個失事事件造成很多國人的這個很痛心的事件那因為一個悲觀的養成真的不容易那特別是又因為這個事故造成兩個家庭的破碎那我想整個相關的事報告要盡快完成來檢討那另外對於家屬這個撫恤我們盡快來做"},{"start":12371.791,"end":12395.669,"text":"那另外部長那個T-34教練機在台灣服役也超過40年那當時引進的時候他並沒有配備彈射椅、黑盒子那這個剛剛很多委員都提過所以說他一旦發生機械故障的時候飛行員逃生是困難的所以也會在這個當這個失事的這個盧教官他當年五年前也在臉書說這個我不知道坦克是怎麼樣"},{"start":12396.69,"end":12423.976,"text":"但是開T34是在玩命沒錯因為你一旦這個T34逃生無門這個也不符合現在這個飛安駕駛這個出交局我們未來還要再使用它嗎?部長我想他第一個先跟委員說明他還沒有接受期啦那確實在民國74年籌購的時候他是沒有談事作意那現在我想我們就在明年把它"},{"start":12425.252,"end":12451.071,"text":"建案把它完成之後希望117年獲得這個預算之後我們就來進行籌購謝謝部長因為部長是當我記得最早是在蔡英文總統任內就是說漢陽公司說要喊要支持這個出交機嘛然後要爭取國防部的支持那部長你上任的時候也有提到說這件事情我想那我們就做事後補救"},{"start":12451.972,"end":12472.624,"text":"那另外就是,其實除了出交機外,其他委員也有提到另外一個也是服役很久的飛機,就是西腰山洞西腰山洞它也從1986年引進到現在也差不多快40年了,一樣面臨這個老舊的問題那,但我們當時是有規劃要做這個性能的提升嘛對不對"},{"start":12474.306,"end":12482.491,"text":"原來有個性能提升的一個規劃案,但現在認為不符效益,所以我們性能提升這個案子就不採了"},{"start":12483.374,"end":12503.529,"text":"要用另外的配套方案嗎?對,因為我們要新購,坦白講也要獲得供售方的意願我們百度裡面是規劃要購西夭三棟街嗎?現在能夠有的就是西夭三棟街了,我想我們會來抽購"},{"start":12506.852,"end":12531.75,"text":"其實不管怎麼樣 基本是都支持採購 因為西澳戰鬥士現在目前國內他的運載量大 而且他可以遠程 他飛程又遠喔是我們國內唯一一台可以來回東沙南沙 全島不用再加油的飛機那也攸關我們這個南沙領土的這個資源的運送喔 也是在未來在因為很多的裝備跟尾巴 確實要取得公司方的意願 有時候"},{"start":12533.081,"end":12548.752,"text":"是要花點時間大家一起溝通說服這個我想大家都理解我們國軍士氣事實上很多服役的裝備年限是蠻久的但是我們沒有獲得新裝備之前我們還是要維持既有的戰力"},{"start":12550.725,"end":12576.11,"text":"會長就加油啦 我們也希望說能夠藉由裝備的更新除了維護整個安全以外 也讓我們整個作戰下能夠提升那另外再問一個 部長就是比較最近看到就是我們年底F16V就預計是年底F16V就要到台灣來了新的飛機我們是預計能夠在第3 就9月的時候能夠有飛機來飛返"},{"start":12578.137,"end":12603.295,"text":"那我看媒體報導就是我們現在新買的這個F16的這個CD型的這個飛機為了要跟現有F16V這個外掛式的這個電站系統共通所以我們要採用類似式的這個LQ254型的那但是這是跟美國同型的這個F16機隊他在明年要計劃要換另外一款就是LQ257的這個整合系統那"},{"start":12604.161,"end":12624.262,"text":"想要請教部長就是說針對ALQ-254的電戰系統是不是能夠因應未來台海的電子戰因為有媒體報導說當時的這個空軍司令熊司令曾經委託美方的技術顧問公司來評估哪一種電戰系統可以因應對應2026年以後台海的電戰的威脅那這個報告裡面總結只是說"},{"start":12626.204,"end":12640.32,"text":"空軍目前採用的這個ANAL-Q254電彈系統它提供基本的威脅是可以最快解最經濟的功能但它不具備對應高階威脅的作戰效能"},{"start":12641.121,"end":12664.742,"text":"那顯然我們當時空軍在做採購的判斷是因為可能在採購期程跟壓力下被迫接受F16V全隊採用這個AL-Q254這個方案但是我想建軍的投資先考量的應該是武器它是否能夠滿足我們作戰的需求再來才是考慮成本跟期程跟後勤的作業的這個統治性那這個部分部長你這邊有什麼要來說明的"},{"start":12667.881,"end":12691.233,"text":"因為這個新聞有一些時間上我必須要先說明一下第一個是有關那個立法院的決議有關跟美國空軍裝備一致這個是在101年那個不是針對拐動的部分那是針對兩棟的升級那兩棟的升級因為我們是外掛式的後來美國就電戰甲上要裁成內置式的所以這個"},{"start":12693.614,"end":12717.859,"text":"兩個不合所以我們就外掛式的要如何來做那後來竟然就是決定說我們外掛跟內置的拐動是內置那我們就一致那一致111年的那個評估跟後來這個254的那個研發我想是沒有辦法畫上一個等號因為111年的時候那個254現在我們研發的這個整個進程"},{"start":12721.46,"end":12739.334,"text":"他有很大的一個進展所以111年他所做的這個評估跟我們現在要拿到的這個254的這個評估這個已經經過好幾年的研發了這個我想都不能夠以那個評估報告作為那個來結論"},{"start":12742.336,"end":12764.653,"text":"那現在EPS-6的拐動的這個部分有關這個電站的系統也不是只有我們包括其他國家就是大家都在買拐動包括巴林、斯洛伐克、摩洛哥、保加利亞我想大家都是會用這個254的那至於我看那個報告裡面也寫到257事實上257的部分美國也還沒有確定"},{"start":12765.99,"end":12793.72,"text":"美國沒有確定而且現在研發還沒有最後的成果出來所以我在這邊還是要跟大家做一個報告就是254的這個電站的這個部分是符合我們的作戰需求的不能夠拿111年的一個初步的評估報告來作為一個我們現在拿到了這個經過研發完成的這個254的作為一個對他的能力的一個評估這樣子"},{"start":12795.721,"end":12815.434,"text":"我們還是要去評估他適不適合應應未來的整個作戰的需求當然我們要用實用能夠用為主而不是說去考慮他的成本但媒體報導或許他有些偏頗那講到這邊也要跟部裡面來說"},{"start":12818.637,"end":12844.672,"text":"我們面對中國未來它這個日益進步的電子站我們這一塊真的要去不然廢棄廢棄整個你的系統都失誤電子是在天天看不見你用打的所以我們是預防這樣的情況發生我們也希望不要有這樣那部理院居然評估說我們有符合這樣的需求那是不是也要思考一下如果真的像媒體這樣講的說我們有沒有選一定的方法這樣子"},{"start":12846.522,"end":12866.733,"text":"所以我剛已經在說明了,我想254這個部分現在評估還是符合我們的作戰需求,它最後當然還是要來對整個作戰環境跟那個我們的作戰的整個的需求做一個作戰測評然後來看,那我想這個"},{"start":12868.479,"end":12885.32,"text":"但是我要說明只是說,111年的那個評估高,並不足以作為我們現在評估254的一個依據我們認為254經過多年的研發,那應該現階段當然最後還要做整個系統測試那我想是符合我們的需求"},{"start":12886.314,"end":12909.294,"text":"其實部長 最後再利用一點時間再請教一下就是這幾天 上個禮拜整個民眾非常引發很多討論也很多爭議的就是整個日非經濟海域的事件那劃定了這個經濟海域然後讓很多漁民 像本席在台東這些漁民也很擔心那我們國防部有沒有考慮規劃"},{"start":12910.655,"end":12935.094,"text":"未來是不是要在巡航的時候能夠把這些海域也能夠派我們的軍艦甚至我們的自航基地巡邏的時候能夠跨到地方去捍衛一下我們的經濟海域 會不會這樣整個我們整個的這個跟海巡我們是會來協作的因為第一個當然就是說我們會有一個情報圖像的一個"},{"start":12937.536,"end":12959.174,"text":"這個共享嘛那這個我想這個是很已經很成熟了我想這個宣示的意義很重要因為你要讓其他國家知道說這一塊海域是我們中華民國的對 第二點就是這樣子就是說他們的海巡或海警過來那我們要捍衛我們的國家主權跟海域的安全"},{"start":12959.774,"end":12977.763,"text":"所以我們要第二點就是我們跟海巡做我們的海巡做一個緊密的協調合作那我們來共同因應因為不管是海巡或者我們海軍這一在捍衛海疆這一塊上面我們是沒有辦法能夠退讓的那這個也可以顯示這個是"},{"start":12979.264,"end":12994.533,"text":"中國來做一個挑釁然後來宣稱說他對我們的東部海岸具有一個執法的一個權限這是我們萬萬不能說我們萬萬不能接受那不行啦那不行啦不管是經濟海域要有主權要有這都不能推讓"},{"start":12995.914,"end":13020.27,"text":"態度上一定要出來也讓其他國家知道說我們的海域在哪邊然後其他國家你們也不要來我們自己的主權我們自己捍衛我們自己的海權我們自己顧我覺得這件事是要來讓這些漁民能夠安心就知道說不管怎麼樣後面我們國軍都會在後面支持這些出來捕魚的漁民是 我想支持我們國軍然後我們也結合海巡應該要做到的責任好 謝謝部長謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13026.67,"end":13031.796,"text":"接下來請葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在 請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長"},{"start":13049.541,"end":13073.58,"text":"部長早早上很多人關心T-34教練機出教機的課題其實我在2022年就開始質詢這個主題那這從1987年開始我們看失事的記錄當然這都是不幸的事件對國軍來講每一個我們國軍弟兄姊妹都是我們的寶貝國家重要的資產每一個人的離開對家人來講都是沒有辦法"},{"start":13077.298,"end":13100.576,"text":"就不管多大代價沒辦法恢復的傷痛這個我自己是空軍退下來的這種其實是很難過的事情那在沒有經過飛安專業的調查判定之前我個人也希望不是因為這個飛機老舊所以它會掉下來或者飛機好危險飛著它就是冒著生命危險我相信在場空軍的將領我們不會接受這種說法"},{"start":13102.097,"end":13127.75,"text":"飛安是一個科學那飛機有定期更換的零件不會有過期的零件載著我們的空軍往天上飛不會但是失事的原因不管是氣候人為機械或者組織因素這個都讓專業去判定所以我們先把失事這個事情尚未判定因素我不在這邊臆測我們回到T-34出教機"},{"start":13128.911,"end":13151.297,"text":"我當年2022年10月24號質詢部長是邱國正的時候就提到因為出教期呢我們可以提早來預化當時在質詢的時候我就提到兩個問題一個逃生座椅沒有它是老舊的等於二戰時期的設計概念是背著這個降落傘拉門往外跳那個在緊急的時候"},{"start":13152.037,"end":13171.973,"text":"姿態不對其實是根本是很困難的一件事情第二個它有消失性傷源它的全售期還沒到確實還沒有屆售期現在的時數大概是中售期再多一些它的售期還沒有到它的零件跟定根或者是維護都沒有預期的問題可是它確實有未來"},{"start":13173.602,"end":13195.713,"text":"2022年我在問的時候那時候估計還有10年的期限那扣掉時間現在大概剩下7年左右也就是我要提早去規劃我們國軍我們空軍下一代出教機這是當年質詢的時候就有提到的問題所以根本的問題在於T-34的設計是老舊的概念兩個基本的東西我們空軍參謀長在這邊T-34其他他"},{"start":13199.214,"end":13215.67,"text":"我們空軍越老舊的飛機那個飄滑翔的性能其實越好那個13棟發動機都廢花了那就一塊鐵老母機它在那邊飄飄飄但那個是以前的優點我們現在T-34它不是fly by wire對不對"},{"start":13216.837,"end":13234.347,"text":"它是鋼纜它是機械式的傳動對於我們現在飛行員要去適應這個FBW這種Fly By Wire那種概念是不一樣的另外呢T-34的設計呢它本身呢光它的儀表板都還是類比式的"},{"start":13234.807,"end":13259.082,"text":"它不是一個所謂的玻璃化儀錶板它沒有數位的功能所以這些是屬於T34本身不可逆無法改老舊的原因再加上它是背著降落傘它不是彈射座椅安全的因素所以我經常有注意到部長講2028年要開始計畫籌購了那籌購的部分呢我不曉得部裡面因為這題目討論很多了從2022年就討論了"},{"start":13262.145,"end":13280.159,"text":"大概有三種方式第一種我們自己全新來研製那這個全新研製呢坦白講這個飛機也不難那符合國軍空軍的利益大概也符合漢翔的需求這是漢翔一直在推的另外一種我現在就買得到了我幹嘛自己再花大筆錢去研製不聰明"},{"start":13281.88,"end":13304.055,"text":"我給空軍最好的那第二種方式就是現有的各國成熟的比較先進的出教機我們引進台灣在台製造那對漢翔也有一點好處那國產化有點好處維保有點好處第三個模式就是直接對外採購我買成熟的和我們用的"},{"start":13304.355,"end":13333.166,"text":"那將來的維保在台灣做大概是這三個模式那請教部長對於我們2028年既然要開始籌購我們下一代的出交機會走哪一個模式我想委員剛剛指教這個都會都會在我們差不多明年年初我們會把它定案明年年初要定案現在有沒有大方向或者空軍這個題目其實討論好幾年了空軍有沒有方向就是坦白講這個裝備並沒有什麼高度機敏性"},{"start":13334.161,"end":13344.741,"text":"我想這個案子我也很清楚,我想最後空軍先做一個專業的評估之後,還是報國防部來我們會做個定案明年初會定案?"},{"start":13345.784,"end":13365.021,"text":"按照期程應該要在五月底前完成建案嘛那我想我們明年初差不多在細分的時候,我們差不多就已經應該要對,大概不外乎這三種模式啦那我們還是要先考慮空軍的需求,再來才是漢祥的需求順序要對啦,那我要建議部裡面"},{"start":13366.002,"end":13386.859,"text":"出教機其實還有除了訓練的功能以外它其實還有一個功能它有輕武裝跟任務的補充2022年討論這題的時候這個項目我們根本沒有思考到因為那時候俄烏戰爭還沒有開始現在發現這種慢速機對待去對付那些低價的慢速的這種無人機"},{"start":13388.16,"end":13415.129,"text":"它是一個可以反制的武器所以我們在輕武裝或任務擴充像國外很多種類似的機型它對於一些邊境巡邏啦海巡的需求啦海上的需求啦甚至於對一些無人機的反制啦它其實是有這樣的功能所以希望我們空軍在建案的時候除了訓練的需求以外把這任務需求也納入在內這個是給部裡面的建議那另外一題是"},{"start":13416.809,"end":13424.379,"text":"這個我先肯定我們部裡面我們過去這幾年對志願役的士兵他一次簽約四年"},{"start":13425.595,"end":13454.817,"text":"然後呢我們以前的規定是最後三年連年要假等否則呢不好意思你四年到你不能續約我們就發現一個問題他來簽志願役第二年的時候他就打椅了那表示什麼他軍旅生涯人生無望那後面兩年我如果當台長連長我要管這個兵我就提心吊膽因為他已經沒有續約的機會了所以當時我跟國防部也在那邊質詢的時候說這樣在管理上其實不是一個好的管理方式一面"},{"start":13456.118,"end":13479.549,"text":"年輕人會犯錯 犯錯我們希望透過教育管理讓他有改正的機會可是我們以前志願役士兵一簽約四年後面連續三年都要假等只要有一年已 不好意思時間到就不能再續約那你們那個部分已經在2024年經過本席質詢之後修正 把他修後來調整為最近一年至三年"},{"start":13480.549,"end":13495.036,"text":"烤雞均在夾等以上那也就是說他這個管理上不會要求你最後三年全部都是他有做修正啦就修正為兩年夾等以上就C3取2那至少他第二年或第三年"},{"start":13495.856,"end":13516.435,"text":"他犯錯被打疑等那他就要表現更好一點更服從一點表現更積極一點來避免後面再出現一個疑那這對基層領導幹部來管兵其實比較好管否則齁我第二年就疑了啊我後面兩年就算打假上我還是要不能續約哇那管理上會有問題所以你們又改了齁在這一個"},{"start":13517.376,"end":13545.511,"text":"陸海空軍軍官士官自願留營陸營徵選服役條例規則的第三條你們有調整這一點本席肯定國防部有看到這個問題那現在就有一個尾巴我這樣已經看到後備我們後備其實也是戰力很重要一件事情後備軍人的輔導幹訓班他變成他沒有變他還是要求這個退伍前三年考積都要加登以上"},{"start":13546.431,"end":13563.12,"text":"部長你聽懂我意思嗎就是說我們現在正職的職業軍人的志願役士官兵已經從三年連續甲等改成三年裡面要有兩年甲等這利於管理也對兵來講比較符合人性他犯錯他有改正的機會可是我們後備沒有跟著動"},{"start":13563.82,"end":13592.048,"text":"我們現在後備呢要來擔任後備軍人輔導幹部去受訓的他要看你服役最後那一年往前推三年要甲等有一年矣不好意思你多優秀我都不能我多缺位不能讓你來受訓部長後備軍人輔導幹訓班這個事情能不能比照志願役這在職的啊這兩個其實在職的應該要求更嚴格就我們現在輔導幹部訓練班呢要求是連續三年甲等能不能比照"},{"start":13592.708,"end":13606.635,"text":"西三取二就是最後三年要有兩年夾等以上這個有沒有機會來納入考量跟委員報告 我們會來研議我的 我現在有了解就是說這個福島幹部我們現在統計大概"},{"start":13613.041,"end":13633.847,"text":"近差不多一萬八就總共大概兩萬一萬一萬八超過一萬八其實都是義務役的所以志願役的戰的人數其實相對來講是不多的因為未來我們不管是主戰部隊守備部隊職業軍人就志願役退下來就是後退先補"},{"start":13634.907,"end":13652.592,"text":"然後我們在守備部隊的機幹是以職業軍人來擔任所以我們需要量夠 值夠好 量夠多的職業軍人當後備的輔導幹部那我再強調的是 這是管理上的一個一致性邏輯的一致性"},{"start":13653.292,"end":13669.905,"text":"當我對志願議事官兵好你四年的合約你最後三年要有兩年假等你有一年已等人嘛犯錯我容忍但過多的錯馬上就太除了嚴重的錯誤馬上就淘汰了但犯了錯考積已等你還有機會你後面兩年表現好一點"},{"start":13671.326,"end":13693.016,"text":"我還會有機會繼續續服這是對現在職業軍人的這個四年一約的這個管理方法那同樣道理對後備軍人的輔導幹部訓練班是你過去軍理生涯最後三年通通要假等否則不好意思你要授訓我不讓你授訓我是建議這個思維能不能一致就攜三取二"},{"start":13693.976,"end":13721.275,"text":"各位報告我現在的想法是比較整體性我想要了解一下其實我想要了解一下就是說這個後備軍人輔導幹部訓練班他現在84%義務役那16%是志願役那這些義務役又是怎麼挑的志願役又是怎麼挑的我感覺上好像不是那麼簡單就是只涉及到這個所謂過去三年所以部長你問到一個好問題就是我們對於這些就是"},{"start":13722.857,"end":13749.105,"text":"後備軍人的幹部到底怎麼挑的這個從黨國體制以來這個是我們一直覺得有意思的一個好問題我們當然希望有歷史的過去的背景要慢慢調整國家部隊的問題我覺得你退伍前的前三年有一個一等或兩個加等這可能是一個這是一個基本的所以是一個可以來檢討的議題但是重點就是說要來做這個"},{"start":13751.699,"end":13776.176,"text":"後備輔導幹部訓練班他的整體大概在全國他到底這些輔導中心他這個選拔有沒有一個透明性的問題部長你摸到一個好的問題其實我剛才講的退伍前那三年考積假等已等這是小事坦白講那就是一個消極資格三年都要假等或三年當中兩年假等這是一個管理的概念但這兩萬個幹部怎麼挑的"},{"start":13779.09,"end":13793.309,"text":"倒是一件大事因為你們現在事情很多嘛注意主戰部隊啊 現役部隊啊 現職的單位那對於後備的輔導幹部的挑選我坦白說以前黨國不分的時代齁那幾乎就是黨部啊"},{"start":13794.21,"end":13819.987,"text":"那現在有好了 現在好很多了 還不足也就是說 這一些輔導幹部呢他的專業性 他的能力 品德這個部分 我覺得我們負責的單位其實要研擬出一套辦法讓我們現在151一年期我現在志願役四年的 越簽越多我退下來了 我將來想在後備部隊當幹部我要報名 我到底要具備什麼資格"},{"start":13821.487,"end":13829.483,"text":"是誰可以推薦?人脈關係是什麼?組織系統是什麼?以前這一塊坦白說是"},{"start":13831.169,"end":13858.524,"text":"進步比較慢的一塊所以我會建議後備體系這邊部長既然提到這個本來我今天不要去摸那麼大塊的東西啦我建議這個部分要研究一下因為將來這些基幹你提這樣的問題就會讓我開始想想到這個整體的這個部長非常聰明而且我聽說這個還跟教召有連結所以就你提出這個問題會讓我想要做一個整體的了解那我就期待"},{"start":13859.52,"end":13887.534,"text":"在你可以的時間內我要看到你們完整的一個版本因為後備戰力其實是國家整體韌性非常重要的一環不是放在那邊備而不用的一環是非常重要可視的一股力量他的幹部怎麼來的他的幹部的品質專業的品質品德的品質跟他的這些考積怎麼部分可能要有一個方案去研擬這是一個全民韌性非常重要的一塊好不好所以部長我剛才提這個點是指"},{"start":13889.355,"end":13906.694,"text":"他去最後當輔導幹部這個管理上其實跟我們現在的管理有一點落差這個是小問題可以調整至於未來這兩萬多個我們後備軍人的幹部怎麼挑 怎麼訓具備什麼樣的品質這個部長一定的時間內"},{"start":13908.038,"end":13926.183,"text":"能夠有一個做法跟報告給我們看一下好不好是 我會來研議一下我先了解然後再進行研議好 謝謝部長我就不限時間啦我希望盡快看到一個完整的因為這跟我之前一直提的最佳預值每個單位兵力要百分之多少部隊才拉得出去其實每個單位不一樣"},{"start":13926.983,"end":13954.663,"text":"我們不能統一平均數最佳預值我們人事單位其實有在研議了這個最佳預值牽涉到我到底哪個單位的人事費用獎勵要高一點 加給要高一點才能讓他拉到預值這個數據要趕快出來後備的幹部是另外一塊這兩塊都算出來我將來知道薪水加給放在哪裡或者我哪些幹部的訓練要強化在哪裡否則現在都是拼命的丟資源進去但那個體系沒有準備好"},{"start":13955.464,"end":13960.416,"text":"那會這個事被公辦好不好我期待部長的報告出來好不好好謝謝"},{"start":13965.916,"end":13975.479,"text":"我們今天登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員、劉建國委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內已有書面答覆委員有約定期限者從其鎖定另外剛剛其實有委員提到舊空軍"},{"start":13992.745,"end":13994.346,"text":"我們那個電站夾艙的部分254跟257我們希望空軍提出一個書面報告給委員會作為參考另外剛剛部長有提到說我們在過去所做的主決議是針對我們的"},{"start":14012.186,"end":14016.55,"text":"其實那是不對的我們當時的主決意是希望我們所有的武器裝備還有所有相關的這些都必須跟美軍盡量要一致如果這個可以不一致或者只是為專一的這些裝備那我們現在其實也不需要再增加什麼特別預算或者像要追加預算"},{"start":14038.109,"end":14041.371,"text":"因為這樣的指管系統其實它就是沒有辦法夠廉的我們有很多包括我們的魚叉跟雄峰現在就沒有辦法廉我們一直要編很多預算很多委員也一直說那個預算一定要再趕快編下來一定要用可是我們在過去的我們現在都沒有辦法廉那我們現在比較擔心的它也不是新的254跟257257已經是美軍"},{"start":14064.204,"end":14067.906,"text":"美方那軍方其實也有編列預算了所以我們希望其實把它好好的做評估因為我們可能是F-16機型最多的一個國家我們比其他的國家都還要多所以如果我們這個裝備現在明明剛開始在建制如果我們錯了"},{"start":14084.676,"end":14090.919,"text":"那對未來影響非常大因為254因為我們這個機型在電站系電站系統跟機上的配備是同時存在的所以APG-83A就是83 ISA 雷達我們現在已經有那你還有存在他們現在比較大的問題254比較大的問題評估報告做出來它是在共通作業上面是會彼此干擾的"},{"start":14112.627,"end":14115.909,"text":"這可能會造成我們F16機型在飛行上或者作戰上面會有風險這個才是空軍相關的單位應該要去重視的現在剛要做或者我們在提升現在也剛要執行不管是20或70其實都一樣所以這個部分我們希望提供正確的資訊而不是錯誤的資訊那現在要"},{"start":14138.104,"end":14143.766,"text":"編列這麼高的預算兩個加起來預算都非常高而且都非常重要所以我們希望提出比較詳細的一個說明跟比較還有哪些國家他們剛剛念了有一些國家他們到底使用多少美國的軍方現在到底要用什麼我們希望跟他一致不然我們的職管系統那是騙人的那另外還有剛剛陸軍我們在諮詢的時候有提到我們是剛剛本期提到是今年"},{"start":14164.951,"end":14178.821,"text":"發生的案子而不是好幾年前所以我們希望根據今年發生的這個可能有洩密的破口這個部分來做說明那今天我們所有的會議到此結束 上會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}