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自相打臉"},{"start":2015.247,"end":2038.94,"text":"大家都知道在107年6月6號的時候公布的兒童及少年未來教育發展賬戶當時是設定條例這個條例大家去查107年6月6日公布的條例這個是蔡英文總統主政的時候我不曉得在座多少衛福部的官員當時有參與條例的制定跟修法"},{"start":2040.114,"end":2063.697,"text":"那至少當時這個在第九屆的時候我在問黃委員會我們都有參與所以行政院說不必立法一樣是這個兒少的教育發展帳戶只是國眾兩黨提出來是台灣未來帳戶那為什麼蔡英文總統主政的時候我記得那時候是林萬億政委所出道"},{"start":2064.378,"end":2067.539,"text":"要立法那現在行政院告訴大家說不用立法這個是完全的雙標這個我們完全沒有辦法接受如果說當時107年只是針對弱勢兒少的都需要立法來相關規範的話那為什麼現在是針對整個台灣所有18歲以下的這個兒少"},{"start":2087.544,"end":2101.558,"text":"卻人數更多金額更大然後完全不用立法這個我不曉得法務部可會給一個說法立法應該不是雙標就是如果當時是需要立法現在當然更需要立法這個第一個我要特別指出來的第二個"},{"start":2106.213,"end":2117.96,"text":"當立法院現在還在討論法案今天是委員會的協商的時候行政院已經對外放消息說沒關係立法院通過的法案我就不附屬"},{"start":2119.585,"end":2147.072,"text":"此例絕對不可開我希望這個民進黨這個執政黨也要約束一下你們所屬的官員因為這位官員是用匿名的方式不具名的方式但是主動跟媒體表達就是說這個即使台灣未來賬戶通過立法那行政院已經表明了就是不附屬從來沒有過即使是前面行政院"},{"start":2148.243,"end":2172.924,"text":"不附屬法案都還等到立法院三讀通過之後看看法條長什麼樣子才來決定不附屬吧但現在是我們現在是委員會第一次寫商而已昨天的新聞就都出來了告訴大家說不附屬請問行政院你已經看到所有法條長什麼版本了嗎這個不附屬是這樣子用的嗎"},{"start":2174.225,"end":2195.102,"text":"這個我們要表達嚴正的抗議這個是完全架空立法權而且漠視立法院你連協商之後的版本長什麼樣都不知道你就可以說不附屬所以在這兩個情況底下我認為行政部門這個心態可以不可以是第一個立法不能雙標怎麼會107年6月6號的時候所公布的這個兒童少年未來教育發展賬戶"},{"start":2203.33,"end":2228.055,"text":"當時你們的理由是說要法治化長遠推動所以送專法通過條例這個是當時的理由但是現在竟然告訴大家說完全不用法治化只要透過這個要點做一做就可以這個是完全雙標還有我們都還沒有協商啟動的時候行政院竟然對外說不附屬"},{"start":2231.054,"end":2248.315,"text":"這個我們可不可以做成決議要求行政院去查是哪一個人在放話就是這個人應該要送監察院這個完全藐視立法院這個是我們完全沒有辦法接受的至少你看到通過的版本你再說不附屬嘛再急什麼"},{"start":2249.156,"end":2268.066,"text":"那這樣子完全就是不讓立法院有討論的空間這種架空立法院立法委員職責的行為這個是完全要被譴責的這個是我現在要說明的第三點現在行政院又說這個津貼是鄭宇的財產所以不必立法請問"},{"start":2272.004,"end":2279.34,"text":"國庫 我們支出的這一些錢怎麼叫贈與財產 怎麼把它私人化了這明明不是國家的預算嗎"},{"start":2280.765,"end":2307.275,"text":"明明不是國家我們透過條例要怎麼樣就是相對的提撥這不是政府的預算嗎怎麼會把它偷換概念變成是好像是私底下給了紅包所以呢這個完全不必立法也不必規範這樣子的一個便宜形式的做法我想我們完全是沒有辦法接受的所以以上這幾點我必須在寫上之前先提出來說明謝謝"},{"start":2309.679,"end":2313.484,"text":"好 謝謝王一鳴委員現在可以請衛福部長回應並整體說明 謝謝"},{"start":2318.015,"end":2339.505,"text":"好 跟主席還有各位委員說明那剛剛這個委員特別提到我們有這個我們叫兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶的條例確實是有那我現在要說明這兩者之間的差異以過去的這一個"},{"start":2342.247,"end":2357.541,"text":"這個兒少的未來教育局發展帳戶呢那他的對象是針對弱勢兒少那麼他有一個所謂的開戶金以及政府跟民眾的相對提撥的設計而且這個提撥進去之後"},{"start":2362.245,"end":2374.45,"text":"也就是說家長存入這個帳戶裡面然後政府也會對應的去提撥分別是用500、1000到1250這三種選擇那麼都開個人的一個帳戶在那邊那同時會限縮他的提領所以這個涉及到對人民的財產儲分的限制"},{"start":2389.375,"end":2403.841,"text":"所以我們必須要明文入法而我們現在所規劃的這個行政院順便所核定的成長津貼它是仿照育兒津貼的方式它是一個幾戶行政"},{"start":2405.402,"end":2424.199,"text":"那麼並沒有去限縮到人民的財產這個是政府在對6歲到18歲之間的兒少那麼有5000塊,2500先直接撥付了直接給家長或者是監護人那麼另外2500先預存"},{"start":2426.221,"end":2442.492,"text":"在一個專戶裡面帶兒少18歲的時候再直接給他本人所以他是一個己父行政沒有任何對人民權利的限縮那麼他的法律依據則是根據預算法"},{"start":2443.092,"end":2467.008,"text":"由行政機關提相關的這個施政計畫同時編列入年度的公務預算裡面經立法院審查通過之後才具以實施就跟當年107年啟動育兒津貼的時候的概念是一樣的所以它是一種給付行政那以這樣的做法上呢跟"},{"start":2467.948,"end":2495.22,"text":"目前的委員的一些版本的差別性是第一個呢那麼他沒有這個家長的這個就是他的那個存入的這個自存的部分的設計來避免這個貧富差距的拉大不會有有錢的自存的多沒有能力的無自存所以這個我們有這樣的避免他這個貧富"},{"start":2496.88,"end":2513.712,"text":"之間的差距的拉大那第二個呢他也省去在每一個開戶的行政成本因為他就變成設計上就要每一個都要開戶那麼這個開戶的行政成本跟後端的管理那麼相對的"},{"start":2516.034,"end":2527.768,"text":"這個相對付出的社會成本也很高那麼另外這個程序上也會很繁雜那麼另外第三個還可能會涉及到政府補貼那麼"},{"start":2530.191,"end":2550.493,"text":"他的這個保障一定的收益還會有政府補貼的問題所以這個對於自存的部分那麼又要涉及到政府的補貼那這個其實在租稅公平上也是有爭議的所以我們是希望維持現有的"},{"start":2551.494,"end":2579.014,"text":"兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶是主要針對弱勢而少的部分來降低這個世代貧窮的問題那麼另外呢我們再用成長津貼直接的給付行政那麼簡化行政那麼也避免掉有這個貧富差距落差擴大的問題那麼來直接執行推動以上的說明"},{"start":2580.253,"end":2604.899,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明現在請七位會務委員好 謝謝主席還有各位同仁大家好那我想呢就是我們的政府呢一直覺得說這個事關這麼重大的一個台灣未來帳戶裡頭的這些資金的來源 經費的分配這麼重要的事情他們覺得不用立法那只需要用要點或用計畫來規範就夠了那事實上我們為了追求永續性"},{"start":2609.52,"end":2632.275,"text":"我們覺得需要有立法的必要性因為要點跟計劃它其實沒有法律作為依據有可能遭令細改然後換了一個人也許就有不同的思維就會可能計劃的美意就會嘎然而止所以為了永續性我們覺得我們拒絕用要點我們拒絕用計劃我們覺得要用立法那立法到底有什麼缺點"},{"start":2633.035,"end":2660.633,"text":"我們完全想不出來台灣未來帳戶或者是你們所謂的成長津貼到底用立法有什麼缺點用立法讓立法委員可以事先來做一個把關然後事後來做一個監督請問這有什麼缺點為什麼要百般的抗拒甚至是百般的阻擾那我想我們是一個法治國的國家那法治國的國家當然就是以法律作為這個施政的規定那依法行政也是我們這個"},{"start":2662.995,"end":2688.355,"text":"我們所知悉的ABC嘛那如果沒有一個台灣未來帳戶的一個法律依據請問一下政府要如何依法行政那如果不依法行政那不是所有的行政作為都很容易變成倒行逆施或者是違反民意這樣的一個現象出現嗎所以我這邊真的很想問一下衛福部又或者問一下我們的政府到底為何不立法"},{"start":2688.955,"end":2712.727,"text":"立法在你們的眼中到底有什麼缺點為什麼這樣百般的抗拒百般的阻擾那當然剛剛玉敏委員已經有提到了這一兩天我們有看到風聲好像就是說如果我們台灣未來帳戶最後三讀通過然後你們的執政方程式又要出招了所謂執政方程式就是三部嘛不公佈不執行不附屬那在這邊真的很想請教一下政府你們現在已經這麼"},{"start":2715.289,"end":2738.045,"text":"囂張到法律都還沒有通過就已經開始在放話了嗎那你們這是在恐嚇立法委員還是在恐嚇我們全台灣2300萬的人民因為立法委員他在立法院是代表人民來行使職權監督政府所以法律都還沒有通過就已經放話了請問你對抗的到底是立法委員還是對抗的全台灣2300萬的人民"},{"start":2740.407,"end":2758.525,"text":"那接著呢 這個是從要不要立法的角度來分析那我再補充說明一件事因為剛剛我們時部長有提到說因為這是給付行政所以對人民沒有不利益所以不需要立法那我這邊想要糾正一下部長不是只有不利益的行政"},{"start":2759.346,"end":2783.474,"text":"措施才需要立法 己父行政也要有法律保留的概念那我們要保留給立法委員 給立法院去審查 目的就是說當然不利益的你會造成人民權利的受損 所以需要立法委員來把關但是己父行政看似外表好像是對人民有利益 但是如果他是壓擠到其他的社福資源或其他政府施政經費的分配"},{"start":2784.574,"end":2803.933,"text":"他其實對某一群人是有利的對某一群人有可能是不利的所以並不是說己父行政對人民有好處的就不需要用立法的方式來為之己父行政也是法律保留事項也是要留給立保留給法律去加以審查跟加以監督那接著我們來講到一個實質層面"},{"start":2806.135,"end":2835.775,"text":"那實質層面當然我們台灣未來帳戶從出生到12歲我們會有一個啟動金再加上一個撥補款那這些動心啟念都是希望兒少在18歲的時候人生有第一桶金不會說因為他的家庭困境很大然後導致他沒有一個拼搏人生的機會那也許有這樣處於弱勢的少年或兒童所以我們在18歲的時候透過台灣未來帳戶這樣的一個制度就給他們人生第一桶金他可以去做"},{"start":2836.776,"end":2861.696,"text":"創業、就業、就學還有房貸的首付款那我想這個美意其實是非常好的那當然這個我們這邊政府也有提出所謂的兒童成長基金那你們的成長基金是0到6歲的時候罰5000元然後6歲之後呢把5000元切成兩半一半呢也是現金給付另一半就是"},{"start":2862.677,"end":2867.942,"text":"提出你們所謂的兒童成長帳戶那我們覺得我們想要在18歲的時候給兒童第一桶金你們在他成長過程當中已經把部分的錢交給家長了有些家長並不會為兒童存下來有可能有一些比較"},{"start":2881.69,"end":2896.002,"text":"不幸的狀況例如說他拿去賭博或拿去酗酒或拿去做一些事情奢侈花費就把它花光了那如果是這樣的制度設計請問兒童到18歲會有第一桶金嗎那這個第一桶金的重要性有可能就是翻轉改變一個兒少的未來"},{"start":2898.644,"end":2922.481,"text":"那接著呢你們一直在批評說我們兒童未來賬戶有一個提存的對存的機制那這個對存的機制如果不好那為什麼你們在弱勢家庭的時候卻要有對存的機制在兒童未來賬戶對存會造成貧富差距那請問一下為什麼在你們所謂的弱勢兒童這一部分就不會造成貧富差距那所以我覺得不要"},{"start":2923.001,"end":2939.876,"text":"就是為了反對而反對為了阻礙而阻礙為了攻擊而攻擊就是一樣的提存制度為什麼你們來行使就是好的政策而我們來行使就會造成貧富差距這樣的一個問題那我先初步說明到這邊謝謝謝謝邱輝祿委員現在請王振旭委員"},{"start":2944.071,"end":2958.464,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天這個有關於台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案大家都講了很多那主管機關這邊也做了一些說明不過我相信還有很多必須要"},{"start":2959.225,"end":2980.339,"text":"持續討論所以立法我剛也聽到兩位委員提到立法本身就是立法委員最重要的工作之一那為了全民的福祉我們希望透過好的立法讓全民的福祉可以得到更好的政府照顧那當然這個在這個立法過程裡面包括如何維持公平還有"},{"start":2980.979,"end":3004.293,"text":"如何能夠有效的去讓這個行政成本得以適當的處理這個都是非常重要的一個立法精神所以針對於今天討論的重點還是需要來做一些說明包括以國民黨跟民眾黨所提出來未來帳戶特別條例因為這個是特別條例所以就編了特別預算"},{"start":3004.773,"end":3023.246,"text":"可是根據預算法第83條的規定當然是有針對於什麼情形之下來適合用特別條例特別預算來適應所以如果說不是在這種狀況之下要用特別條例基本上還是會違反現有的預算法"},{"start":3023.926,"end":3047.191,"text":"的一些內容這個部分還是需要先做處理澄清那剛剛也討論到說都還沒有通過的法案為什麼就已經有人放聲說要不附屬我想這個政府單位應該要出面來澄清而且要說明清楚對於逆法本身事實上是不會有這個可能性產生的所以這是我們要先請"},{"start":3048.351,"end":3077.13,"text":"大家共同來瞭解的部分那我在立法提案說明裡面也有提到說從社會這個實證的數據來看如果我們把這個就是包括國民黨跟這個民眾黨版本規定的家長自存10萬元對弱勢家庭來講真的是看得到吃不到的制度這樣反而會造成國庫稅金區逆向補貼高收入家庭的這個遺憾所以我剛才提到公平的問題這個是真的要需要好好的來處理"},{"start":3079.111,"end":3094.379,"text":"另外有關於如何能夠去減輕行政成本的部分在數位治理的時代其實我們用科技來減輕造成的行政成本的負擔如果依照現在兩黨的實證賬戶的設計"},{"start":3097.641,"end":3115.207,"text":"全台可能將來還有幾百萬的家庭要去臨櫃排隊這會造成非常多的行政跟時間上的成本那如果說將來主管機關這邊有更好的方式用科學的方法 便民的方法的話那希望能夠有比較適當的機制來處理我們將來要照顧"},{"start":3119.328,"end":3135.522,"text":"希望能夠針對這個少子女化造成的這些目前碰到的問題呢可以做更好的一些處理方式那就是以上的一些意見提供給大家參考以上好謝謝王振旭委員接下來請陳金輝委員"},{"start":3138.87,"end":3159.763,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位官員還有委員一起關心這個議題那我們在坐在這邊的同時其實也已經發布了五月的出生率五月的人口出生的新社是6800人當時二月的時候我們覺得很震驚因為從來沒有看過一個月有這麼低的結果我們現在五月又是6000人"},{"start":3160.663,"end":3180.299,"text":"那這個議題從我經理法院到現在幾乎每次總諮詢都會諮詢並且不斷的在預警不到11萬不到10萬那很明顯的今年我們可不知道主管機關等一下想不想回應不過今年我們的確是有風險不到10萬因為我算了一下每個月至少要有8000個行程所以"},{"start":3182.521,"end":3211.483,"text":"在台灣現在出生的每一個兒童都非常的寶貴每一個兒童都非常的寶貴我們用的本來就是一個人口永續的戰略如果你這個條例或者是你這個津貼最後花的是變多你應該要覺得高興你應該要覺得說你的出生率有所增長如果你是雪崩式的一直在下降就表示今年520賴清德所提出來的所有的東西都來得太晚了"},{"start":3212.103,"end":3229.777,"text":"那我想說的是其實上次我們經過非常多的討論郭國文委員的意見也非常的寶貴大家都可以去翻上次會議紀錄他也經過了很長時間的研擬還有很長時間那個這個國外的一些經驗所以他講得非常的好"},{"start":3230.137,"end":3258.176,"text":"那我不知道主管機關到底有沒有吸收進去啦那剛有講到說本來要用的這個兒少條例其實我質詢的時候就已經講他的問題所在了第一他的這個開戶最低是低到五成而已耶就是沒有人去開再來你剛說對存可是最後對存沒有辦法執行下去的人也非常的多所以他本身就有其問題了這個是衛福部本來就應該要檢討的長久以來的問題"},{"start":3260.437,"end":3281.3,"text":"那我們從有人總諮詢有人提案到進入公聽會到進入逐條審查我剛算了一下大概已經花了半年了立法院討論的東西衛福部一直沒有備案上次也沒有備案浪費大家一整天今天還是兩手空空的來所以我是想問啦"},{"start":3282.381,"end":3303.531,"text":"是不是完全不尊重國會啊上一次我們逐條審查的時候我覺得委員的意見都非常的好那全案是保留今天我們來到協商的現場我們還是沒有任何的進度然後就毫無準備用一個脫字訣這樣是完全不及格的第二呢以前行政當局最喜歡用草率立法需要神聖演義當作黨鍵牌但這件事情我剛講已經過半年了齁"},{"start":3307.873,"end":3314.937,"text":"我們每次都給了行政單位很充分餘裕的時間去評估去調整但是到現在還是沒有看到一個版本端出來第三這個是涉及國庫的支出還要建立個人的專戶怎麼可能不需要立法剛一直跳針說這套制度是政府給錢發放福利的幾副行政只要編列預算就好不需要另外立法"},{"start":3333.846,"end":3357.445,"text":"但是這個要嚴格的糾正這個政策不僅涉及這個公行的支出還涉及國家要為全台灣每一個出生的孩子建立個人金融專戶到18歲的資金動用的限制還有監督的機制完全是涉及人民的重大權利義務這種規模的政策怎麼會不需要法律來授權"},{"start":3358.767,"end":3373.905,"text":"剛剛當然石部長也有講到說他擔心這個擔心那個我們都希望可以逐條來比如說設定對存的規則或者是設定上限等等的這個上次郭國文委員也一點一點說得非常的清楚了"},{"start":3374.386,"end":3399.459,"text":"如果一個月只有6800個新生兒你到後面面對的是嚴重的勞動力的問題這個保險的問題社福的問題你面對的是這麼多問題所以郭國文委員才一直講到說他覺得國家也要介入雇主也應該要介入家長也應該要介入他覺得要多方介入才可以嘛那一定要透過正式的立法來保障這個"},{"start":3400.359,"end":3421.173,"text":"法律穩定性還有永續性所以未婦說不用立法我是覺得有點離譜了那這邊有找到一個司法院士字第443號解釋建立的重要性理論認為涉及人民權利義務的重要事項應該由法律來訂定之所以重大幾副行政措施涉及國家"},{"start":3421.993,"end":3444.291,"text":"財政資源分配與人民受益資格認定不應僅由行政命令或年度預算處理應該回歸法律保留原則由立法院透過法律明定給付的對象資格條件經費來源監督機制以確保公平性透明性還有財政紀律最後因為剛剛官員一直講到說"},{"start":3447.914,"end":3474.134,"text":"賴總統的做法不會擴大貧富差距足記總署也是這樣子說說無法照顧到真正的經濟弱勢應該由行政部門通盤的研議結果你們研議了這麼久現在提出來的方案有排富嗎你們看起來還是一樣啊你們看起來就是給全國人民一樣啊那我是我是覺得今天為何沒有準備的狀況之下是非常不尊重立法部門謝謝以上"},{"start":3476.304,"end":3502.805,"text":"好 謝謝曾經輝委員 接下來請范雲委員好 我想先釐清一下我們今天這個是委員會的協商那我們在場的其實是國民黨團跟民眾黨團的提案還有那個郭滾委員的提案這個版本因為上次我有去那個審查的時候因為被保留 所以我今天這個協商可是聽起來大家好像攻擊的都是衛福部的那個成長經濟而不是回到這個"},{"start":3503.826,"end":3526.936,"text":"保留的條文我想先回到保留的條文那為什麼我們不支持第一個理由剛剛王醫師已經有提到了自從我們這幾個會期一直在講就是立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加稅出應該要先徵詢行政院的意見那這樣子事實上才不會違反預算法的第91條"},{"start":3528.637,"end":3552.315,"text":"所以这个所谓的未来账户它基本上就没有先征询行政院的意见所以它本质上就已经违反了预算法第91条我想我们已经有这么多会期都有这样子的一个议题在了所以我想这是第一个就是为什么我们会保留甚至直接讲就是说反对这样的一个提案那第二个"},{"start":3552.995,"end":3577.846,"text":"就內容來講上次在委員會的時候其實我有表達過意見就是我們看到民眾黨跟國民黨團的版本這個設計那其實在公聽會裡面也有學者專家提到就是這個所謂的自存款的設計那允許家長就是每年可以存多少錢企業還可以贊助然後可以得到一個"},{"start":3579.126,"end":3592.635,"text":"稅務的減免這個部分那家長團體他們就提到說這種租稅扣抵跟免稅優惠那其實對很多的基層家庭是看得到吃不到那相反的20%的高所得的家庭"},{"start":3595.037,"end":3610.245,"text":"他不僅有能力存滿的上限還能享受雙重減稅對企業來講還有一個漏洞他會不會變相把給員工的薪資放到這裡做一個協商所以我想這等於會是造成一個"},{"start":3611.406,"end":3626.178,"text":"富者越富就是貧者越貧那擴大世代貧富差距那剛剛講就是衛福部那個部分沒有排富那衛福部那個部分我們當然要做的事情是一個平均化每一個人都有的"},{"start":3626.698,"end":3646.71,"text":"那跟這個貧富差距的擴大化這是天差地別所以就實質的版本的內容的話那我也不支持那當然還有其他的原因包含就是說這個版本要自己去金融機構開立實體賬戶那其實也增加了行政的成本"},{"start":3647.33,"end":3669.236,"text":"那回來談就是剛剛大家一直在攻擊衛福部的我是覺得還是要幫忙的講一下話因為剛剛有委員用這個就是司法院的釋字第幾號司法院後來釋字614號有再一次的公開的宣誓如果是限制人民自由的"},{"start":3669.716,"end":3688.171,"text":"那當然應該要立法可是如果不是限制人民自由那以衛福部做的這個就是對人民的一個就是不管是福利的話是所謂的給付行政他其實就沒有違反那個所謂的法律保留原則"},{"start":3689.412,"end":3692.196,"text":"那我也要提醒大家就是2011年馬政府當時的開始做的育嬰津貼他其實就是屬於這樣子的一個行政命令或所謂的幾副行政並沒有出現就是後來民進黨執政了2018年2021年2023年"},{"start":3709.177,"end":3724.151,"text":"這是繼續而且是調整調高額度那他都是用所謂的作業要點並沒有因為政黨輪替而有就是說不穩定的狀態那我想這幾個理由都是希望大家可以參考啦"},{"start":3724.471,"end":3740.72,"text":"那畢竟就是說現在我們討論的保留的是在場的這個國民黨團跟民眾黨團的提案那這部分不管是就預算法的精神還有就實質的內容的話那真的就是我們沒有辦法支持好 謝謝范委員接下來請劉書斌委員"},{"start":3748.167,"end":3762.264,"text":"好 謝謝主席那今天的發言重點有幾個第一個是在針對衛福部這邊所提到的過去的確到現在還存在的是一個兒童及少年發展教育帳戶條例"},{"start":3764.166,"end":3786.911,"text":"那這個執行的狀況其實我們希望能夠知道因為它最主要是對中低收入對不對然後也有所謂的對存的機制對但是這個地方剛才聽到幾位委員的一個敘述之後大概知道說這個的包括對存的效果好像不太好那最重要的是這樣的一個情況是不是因為它本身是中低收入你還在那拿錢去對準其實本身設計就是有問題而且這個條例它本身從100好像107年就開始對不對"},{"start":3792.552,"end":3805.67,"text":"那這個條例呢他為什麼還已經有了就算是如果真的能夠發生幫助的話對於少子女化的部分也應該能夠提升可是就是到現在我們的新生兒的出生人數可能都已經進入到十萬人以下的情況之下"},{"start":3810.456,"end":3817.523,"text":"是不是真的考慮到它的效果不好但是我覺得是要肯定說衛福部之前有這樣一個機制啦那我們現在呢就是在這個基礎上面再把這樣的一個民眾黨跟國民黨就是在這樣的基礎上面包括像剛才的這樣一個帳戶的條例本身就是有立法的基礎然後也是有對存機制"},{"start":3830.135,"end":3853.571,"text":"這不是就是當初在國家的政府就是在考慮用這個方式來去做這樣的就這樣的一個對於除了對低收入的家庭的一種輔助之外可是更重要的是他其實有希望說也能夠因此有一項的整體的對的成長的人口的一個增加這是第一個部分那我希望等一下省貴福布這邊可能就對這個"},{"start":3856.853,"end":3880.506,"text":"條例的或是這個帳戶的實施的狀況呢再跟我們做一個報告好就是說這部分因為從看起來是在野黨這邊真的是就在這個機制上面在做進行那現在第二個部分就是說為什麼我們剛才呢會說到說沒有其實我們一直在針對的是要做本來就這個今天的議題啊就講在上次的逐條審查當中可是為什麼沒有就是因為"},{"start":3881.667,"end":3897.234,"text":"二副部長 石部長您就是一直在說因為目前行政院就是有相關的這個給付等等行政給付所以不需要再用一部的在包括的是在野黨的版本跟包括郭國文的執政黨裡面的郭國文的版委員的"},{"start":3897.734,"end":3901.618,"text":"幾個人的十幾個人的這個版本也不需要就都討論了當初時的這個立場是這樣子所以我們才今天就想說如果行政院是採取這個態度而不是想要把像剛才我像我說的本來行政院就已經有這樣的一個"},{"start":3914.27,"end":3930.706,"text":"兒童及少年發展教育帳戶條例的這樣的一個機制如果我們把讓他更實施到所有的普及化而且都能夠去為了把甚至把這樣的當初的目的只是捐助救助到所謂的少就是低收入的少年可是現在目的是更長遠的就是要存下來的是一個我們的每一個"},{"start":3935.891,"end":3943.597,"text":"現在畜生後來立法實施之後呢已經會有的這樣子18歲之前的低童金的實現這個目標更為長遠那就有機會讓現在不是一個短視建立的只是一種發錢式的而沒有一種長遠效果的一個立法"},{"start":3955.707,"end":3962.335,"text":"內容就是一個條例等這樣的一個規劃就會變成它的一個長遠重要性所以我必須要講到說的確是必須要把它立法的就是在剛才的那個原來的這個條例的基礎上帳戶條例的基礎上來去做做一個擴大或是這個修整這樣就很好了那另外第二個部分再說要"},{"start":3976.571,"end":3984.718,"text":"為什麼要就算是立法的就算是一個行政的一個己父也應該知道是如果因為政黨的輪替會有不一樣的一個"},{"start":3986.977,"end":4005.4,"text":"的一個對呃相關的在對少子化對策的有想像或是是規劃了實相呢通通都原來真的每一可能就因為有政黨的一個意見啊輪替的意見不同呢就會有差別的時候這是不是更顯突顯出來這個部分更的需要是要有呃"},{"start":4007.608,"end":4028.003,"text":"立法院的參與而且是用個保障的我們的財政的紀律的有效性能夠做做必要的這樣子透過立法形式的必要性就呈現出來所以這是第二個理由就要提出來就是絕對要有立法不要就避免到政黨輪替上面的差異性第三個呢就是在於說現在的"},{"start":4030.056,"end":4047.118,"text":"目前的0到6歲就是現在在總統所提出來的這個方案當中整個少子化或者少子化跟兒少的一個津貼的部分就是0到6歲的這部分金額上是沒有"},{"start":4047.418,"end":4062.472,"text":"沒有就是現在已經要把用的部分進去進行那6到18歲這部分的一個很大的一個差異性就是跟跟現在在地黨所提出來的是說同樣是一個月拿5000可是每個月呢2500是直接現金撥付2500要存起來好那這個情況呢"},{"start":4067.076,"end":4089.191,"text":"第一個現金的部分可能就是會被拿掉就是因為真的有的是他因為沒有牌付的說有些是比較貧苦的家庭你就直接媽媽媽媽拿到就把它用到最現在辛苦所需現在的生活所需的那另外的兩千五只再把它留下來去做一個這樣的一個基金把它存就想要變成說是有一個一個專戶那這個賬戶商都呢也遇到一個問題是"},{"start":4095.429,"end":4104.615,"text":"這麼少的一個錢好那如果說包括的是在野黨所提到的是說包括郭國文的委員他有提到一個很重要的方案是他能夠對準的話這其實無攝到貧富差距的因為為什麼你本來就已經保障是"},{"start":4109.67,"end":4114.334,"text":"這個2500的層價區但是如果是有的家庭他願意為了他的未來的子女未來有低桶金是更多的情況之下就養成這種儲蓄情況甚至這樣的一個情況是只會多不會變少因為少的部分最基礎的部分就是已經由政府去保障了他的2500的部分在層價出來所以絕對也不會出現到貧富不均的情況另外呢如果這個低桶金的設計可以讓"},{"start":4136.193,"end":4155.523,"text":"他的這個帳戶裡面呢因為有自提款的還包括原來的政府部的還要自提款的這部分的話那我當然希望說他達到了這個低統計能是能夠增長的所以也必須要有些透過立法機制透過基金帳戶的這個管理那現在就是這個情況所以呢絕對是會"},{"start":4157.464,"end":4161.286,"text":"必須要立法去做規範就對了那我覺得最重要的是強調一點就是這個現在代言人所提出來的未來賬戶談未來賬戶的這個條例這樣的最重要機制就是其實就可以延續著本來"},{"start":4173.161,"end":4187.956,"text":"貴福部的兒童及少年發展教育帳戶條例 這樣基礎上去做擴展那甚至把它擴展到 全部的人都可以去加入到這樣的一個設計所以我想說 提供這樣的一個意見 請貴福部這邊能不能做回應好 謝謝好 謝謝柳書斌委員 接下來請林營銓召委"},{"start":4195.14,"end":4219.848,"text":"上一月份在開所謂詢答的時候那1月12號開詢答的時候就已經有提出來說今天這個用特別條例特別預算那依預算法的第83條規定本來行政院只能因國防緊急設施或戰爭國家經濟重大變故重大災害不定期或數年一次的重大震勢"},{"start":4220.928,"end":4240.152,"text":"可以提出特別預算可是今天這個框架本來就不適合那另外一個本來就按照預算法那時候在那一次的時候就也有提醒說預算法第91條就規定我想剛剛黃振旭委員有特別在講就是說立法委員所提的法案如果大幅增加稅出"},{"start":4240.772,"end":4252.088,"text":"或者是減少稅務者都應該要徵詢行政院意見並指名裁員可是一直到現在到底再到4月2號的時候開公聽會這中間我不知道"},{"start":4256.053,"end":4284.15,"text":"提出版本的有没有去征询过然后了解否则的话最后变成是什么如果未来账户如果最后就是要靠举债来买单的话这到底是投资未来还是在跟未来借钱如果要投资未来的钱居然是跟下一代举债来借钱的话这当然就是会很讽刺那第二个就是说公听会4月2号办的时候基本上当天有很多学者因为为什么要办公听会就是要让"},{"start":4285.231,"end":4307.25,"text":"我覺得相關關心甚至對這樣子的有專業的或是公民團體來提說那這個法案要去做要去制定到底符不符合到底能不能符合民意甚至到底符不合我們的學歷背景當天本來就有很多教授也提出來我念一下丹陽大學經濟系的教授那個"},{"start":4307.87,"end":4332.624,"text":"蔡明芳就指出這項政策恐怕無法真正解決少子女化甚至可能擴大貧富差距她直言說在貧富差距的基礎上繼續談平權就是繼續維持貧富差距甚至擴大貧富差距並認為這像是普發現今的變體而已那東吳大學的那個葉崇洋教授也說如果負力效果可能讓"},{"start":4333.704,"end":4357.397,"text":"窮小孩跟富有家庭的孩子的資產的差距擴大到10倍他更強調投資在公托上是社會投資的核心不是投資在未來賬戶上那就是在投資金融市場而已工地會舉辦就是要廣受民意那既然這麼多人不是這麼支持甚至在學理上背景也提出了很多不太"},{"start":4358.217,"end":4381.769,"text":"主張用這樣的方式來做的那的確後來我們就看到法上一直看到的一個問題可是似乎解釋再解釋好像都沒有理解我要再強調一次根據這個條例的話除了政府給每位孩子啟動金的確弱勢都有一般家庭有這個啟動金跟我們的撥補款外可是"},{"start":4383.334,"end":4408.727,"text":"弱勢家庭的家長有很好的工作嗎他今天會成為弱勢就是有他弱勢的一些條件存在那可是經濟狀況很好家長他每年還可以自存最高10萬元你說家長有錢存為什麼不進去可是你還給他減稅那弱勢反而事實上是沒有辦法得到這個那家長的雇主呢我相信如果經濟狀況很好的家長他可能在幸福企業搞不好這些"},{"start":4410.029,"end":4435.226,"text":"雇主也可以拿出錢來可是如果是家庭他可能是非典型的工作可能事實上是在工地打工的時候有這樣子的雇主會去替員工的子女加碼存入五萬塊嗎而一樣同樣有享有底稅的優惠一個高收入家庭小孩如果自存款再加上企業贊助款每年存好存滿18歲的時候他帳戶可以最高本金加上最高可以累積到196萬"},{"start":4437.099,"end":4446.562,"text":"弱勢家庭呢弱勢家庭呢只能如果家長沒有穩定工作沒有多餘的錢最後就是政府投入的16萬這價差多少啊價差180萬假設如果18年的投資的複利成長就誠如剛才我提的東吳大學的葉教授講這個複利真的會差更多兩者的差距可能會擴大到250萬甚至300萬以上"},{"start":4461.727,"end":4487.334,"text":"怎麼沒有貧富差距呢怎麼是在欺負弱勢呢因為弱勢在一個國家在講平等的時候應該要把他們拉起來讓他們可以在這個台灣這個社會生存可是每次台灣都說一直說沒有貧富差距沒有貧富差距我就不懂是我的數學不太好呢還是其他人數學比我更好我也不太了解今天明明講得這麼清楚我也不知道"},{"start":4487.594,"end":4512.564,"text":"知道說為什麼只要提到這個都說沒有貧富差距我覺得如果公聽為大家講的結果我們還是要一意孤行來執行這法最後我要講說剛才有人講說有俄語那俄語是記者的自己的報導那他俄語到底聽到誰講說什麼附屬這些到底怎麼傳出來的如果一個立委會相信這樣的俄語我也覺得蠻特別的就是說有沒有去查證"},{"start":4513.965,"end":4515.107,"text":"今天誰講出來這句話沒有查證的話在我們的國會殿堂去講這樣我覺得不太恰當以上"},{"start":4523.604,"end":4550.892,"text":"好 謝謝林愛卿 再次請邱輝路委員是 不好意思 因為我坐在這邊我覺得我有必要一正視聽因為有人感覺是在亂詮釋法律那關於法律保留呢剛經費委員有提到說4至443號解釋就提到法律保留我想法律保留是一個法律系的學生乃至於這些法律人都應該知道的一個基本觀念我覺得已經是一個ABC層級的法學知識"},{"start":4552.032,"end":4576.705,"text":"那其實法律保留它是一個就是443號解釋它接觸一個層級化法律保留的概念那它有四個層次第一個層次就是憲法保留第二層次就是絕對保留第三個層次就是相對保留第四個層次就是不需保留那什麼叫憲法保留就是你要拘束人民的行動自由你必須要用憲法的方式來約束因為人民的行動自由"},{"start":4577.285,"end":4602.139,"text":"是罪一個至高無上的權利所以我們憲法第八條也規範了你如果要約束限制人民的自由那就是用憲法來保留那就是交給憲法來制定那就是憲法第八條那絕對的保留就是說如果你侵害人民的權利重大的室友也絕對要由法律來制定那所制定的密度就要非常的高那什麼叫相對法律保留"},{"start":4602.359,"end":4630.163,"text":"就是你侵害人民的權利相對比較輕微但是也是有干預到人民的權利的情況之下那就是也要用法律來保留只是說它的密度比較低那侵害人民權利輕微的要用相對法律來保留之外還有己父行政己父行政如果是重大的己父行政也要交給法律來制定所以也要奉行法律保留的概念那不用法律保留的是什麼事項輕微的己父行政"},{"start":4630.603,"end":4644.868,"text":"或者是行政機關在針對一些技術性然後細索性的技術層面的事情來做規範確實那個是不用法律保留好那現在就想請問大家一件事不管今天是我們國民黨跟"},{"start":4646.488,"end":4658.633,"text":"民眾黨所提出的台灣未來帳戶它的這個預算涉及它的經費規模涉及4000億那這個民主進步黨他們所提出來的版本是大概有2000到3800億的規模那請問這不是重大的幾戶行政嗎"},{"start":4663.415,"end":4680.843,"text":"輕微的己父行政也許不用法律保留但是如果是重大的己父行政還是要法律保留所以剛如果有人提到說己父行政不用法律保留我覺得這是一個謬論也是一個說法不精確的一個法律概念的詮釋那我在這邊就跟大家做一個澄清 謝謝好 謝謝那請部長一起回應委員的發言"},{"start":4687.537,"end":4707.311,"text":"好 謝謝所有委員的指教剛剛特別陳委員關心這個兒少未來教育局發展帳戶的執行情形我必須再強調這個兒少未來教育局發展帳戶它的制定並不是為了少子女"},{"start":4708.112,"end":4733.927,"text":"的問題他主要是在解決世代貧窮希望促進兒少未來能夠自力發展兒社的這個條例所以他這個條例的設計呢才會有這個開戶金那麼以及政府的對駁這是針對這個兒少弱勢兒少那當然到目前為止呢他的開戶率大概是65%續存率大概是88%"},{"start":4735.448,"end":4756.727,"text":"所以當然還是有他這個應該要更提高的部分所以在未來我們這個明年開始實施這個成長津貼相對的從0到6歲會有每個月的5000塊的這個成長津貼6歲到18歲每個月有2500的成長津貼那麼剛好可以協助這一些弱勢的家庭"},{"start":4757.427,"end":4786.004,"text":"他就有比較能力去自存進去然後政府再對存進去等於是更易住在這樣的設計更易住的這個弱勢而少那麼他的這個未來的這個智力發展所以這個是第一個補充所以他這個未來在這個成長津貼開始這個實施之後呢其實對於這個弱勢而少的幫忙是更大的所以這個是第一個"},{"start":4786.904,"end":4807.737,"text":"那麼第二個呢也是要再強調這個以我們目前的這個版本這個法律的版本裡面呢他是用特別條例的方式那麼不論是在他的體力或者是內容上呢確實都還是存在的一些爭議啦那但是在"},{"start":4808.858,"end":4831.746,"text":"這個現在行政院所核准我們開始編入到明年的公務預算裡面的成長津貼而言那麼他是馬上就務實可行而且我們也願意在立法院的監督之下那麼進行預算審查及未來的執行成效的報告這個我們都願意在立法院的監督之下來推動那麼更何況呢那麼"},{"start":4832.666,"end":4847.68,"text":"對照於長期那麼很早我們就開始實施的育兒津貼這是101年就開始實施的那麼實施至今所以一個好的政策並不會因為這個政黨的輪替而有所減損"},{"start":4848.761,"end":4870.371,"text":"那麼再者以近期而言我們也實施了這個生育補助的提高從今年開始那麼生育補助一律不論各項的保險都不論你有沒有社會保險我們一律都拉高到10萬那這個呢其實也沒有任何的法律也是經過立法院願意審查"},{"start":4870.911,"end":4890.056,"text":"通過認為這一個這樣的做法呢是有益民眾那麼對全民是好的所以我們今年也就實施了這個也要很謝謝立法院願意呢讓這一個雖然預算還沒有審查完畢但是呢這個當時候在立法院呢也同意就部分的計畫先"},{"start":4891.636,"end":4912.7,"text":"可先行動之其實這個就是我們在立法院監督之下客尊我們的行政依法行政那麼來執行的所以過去遠遠的有101年開始實施的育兒津貼近的有我們今年開始做的生育補助其實這一些呢那麼都可以"},{"start":4913.6,"end":4939.438,"text":"我們都是按照過去幾副行政的規定來執行的所以再請委員能夠支持那麼我們先以行政院核定省長津貼未來的執行方式編入他明年的預算來接受立法院的監督那麼至於這個台灣未來帳戶特別條例確實還有若干的爭議存在那麼需要再更多的時間去討論"},{"start":4947.442,"end":4960.894,"text":"因為今日行政機關仍無法提出建議版本各委員發言意見也沒有共識現在宣告本日協商無共識需立法院之前刑事法第十二章相關規定辦理散會"},{"start":4984.258,"end":4990.06,"text":"謝謝謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:01:32.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:01:36.336000+08:00","text":"各黨團人員均已到，協商會議開始，現在協商本法案。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:02:59.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:03:12.174000+08:00","text":"本案提報院會，並擬具審查報告，除第一章章名通過外，其餘均保留，今天進行方式仍是請\n衛福部先說明，再請各位委員提出意見，最後會中協商結論請各黨團簽名。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:03:13.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:03:18.139000+08:00","text":"截至目前為止，衛福部尚未提出建議條文，先請衛福部整體說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:03:18.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:03:18.579000+08:00","text":"請王育敏委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:03:27.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:03:34.941000+08:00","text":"我要先講，其實衛福部根本就不贊成立法，所以當然沒有版本，我也不知道他要說明\n什麼。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:03:35.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:03:51.547000+08:00","text":"我先說明我的立場：第一，關於臺灣未來帳戶要訂定條例，目前行政院說不必立法，但\n其實是自相矛盾、自相打臉。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:03:52.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:04:01.032000+08:00","text":"大家都知道 107 年 6 月 6 日公布的兒童及少年未來教育發展帳戶\n，當時是設定條例。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:04:02.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:04:23.981000+08:00","text":"大家可以去查 107 年 6 月 6 日公布的條例，是在蔡英文總統主政的時候，\n我不曉得在座有多少衛福部官員參與了條例的制定與修法，至少當時第 9 屆我在衛環委員會，\n我們都有參與。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:04:25.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:04:43.118000+08:00","text":"行政院說不必立法，但一樣是兒少教育發展帳戶，只是國眾兩黨提出來的是臺\n灣未來帳戶，蔡英文總統主政的時候要立法，我記得那時是林萬億政委所主導，為什麼現在行\n政院卻告訴大家不用立法？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:04:43.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:04:43.659000+08:00","text":"這是雙標，我們完全沒有辦法接受。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:04:43.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:08.548000+08:00","text":"連 107 年當時只針對弱勢兒少\n都需要立法做相關規範，現在是針對整個臺灣、所有 18 歲以下兒少，人數更多、金額更大，竟\n完全不用立法？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:05:09.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:11.671000+08:00","text":"我不曉得法務部可不可以給一個說法？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:05:12.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:18.378000+08:00","text":"立法應該不是雙標，如果當時需要立法\n，現在當然更需要立法，這是我第一點要特別指出來的。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:05:18.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:34.759000+08:00","text":"第二，當立法院現在還在討論法案、今天是委員會的協商時，行政院已經對外放消息：說沒\n關係，立法院通過的法案我就不副署。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:05:36.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:39.246000+08:00","text":"此例絕對不可開！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:05:39.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:44.847000+08:00","text":"我希望民進黨身為執政黨，也要約束\n一下你們的所屬官員。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:05:45.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:05:59.971000+08:00","text":"這位官員是以匿名、不具名方式主動向媒體表達，即使臺灣未來帳戶通\n過立法，但行政院已經表明，就是不副署。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:01.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:06:14.411000+08:00","text":"從來沒有過這種情形，即使是之前行政院不副署的\n法案，都還等到立法院三讀通過之後，看看法條長什麼樣子才決定不副署吧？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:15.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:06:22.518000+08:00","text":"但現在只是委員\n會第一次協商而已，昨天新聞就都出來了，告訴大家不副署。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:23.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:06:28.623000+08:00","text":"請問行政院，你們已經看到所有\n法條、版本長什麼樣了嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:28.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:06:29.924000+08:00","text":"不副署是這樣用的嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:31.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:06:41.754000+08:00","text":"我們要表達嚴正的抗議，這是完全架空立法\n權，而且漠視立法院，你們連協商後的版本長什麼樣都不知道就可以說不副署！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:43.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:06:51.402000+08:00","text":"所以在這兩個\n情況底下，我認為行政部門心態可議，第一，立法不能雙標嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:06:51.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:16.853000+08:00","text":"你們在 107 年 6 月 6 日公布兒\n童少年未來教育與發展帳戶，當時的理由是要法制化、長遠推動，所以送專法、通過條例，怎\n350\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄\n麼會現在竟然告訴大家完全不用法制化，只需要透過要點做一做就可以？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:17.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:18.994000+08:00","text":"這完全是雙標。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:18.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:24.755000+08:00","text":"還有\n我們協商都還沒啟動，行政院竟然就對外說不副署。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:28.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:32.800000+08:00","text":"我們可不可以做成決議，要求行政院查是\n哪個人放話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:34.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:41.010000+08:00","text":"這個人應該送監察院，因為他完全藐視立法院，這是我們沒有辦法接受的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:41.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:44.454000+08:00","text":"至少\n看到通過的版本再說不副署嘛！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:45.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:45.315000+08:00","text":"急什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:46.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:54.841000+08:00","text":"這就是完全不讓立法院有討論的空間，這種架空立法\n院、立法委員職責的行為完全要被譴責。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:55.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:07:56.762000+08:00","text":"這是我要說明的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:07:57.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:14.536000+08:00","text":"第三點，現在行政院又說津貼是贈與財產，所以不必立法，請問國庫支出的這些錢怎麼會叫\n贈與財產、怎麼把它私人化了？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:15.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:16.340000+08:00","text":"這不明明是國家的預算嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:17.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:25.328000+08:00","text":"明明國家透過條例規定要怎麼樣相\n對提撥，這不是政府預算嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:25.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:34.851000+08:00","text":"怎麼會偷換概念，像是私底下給的紅包，所以完全不必立法、也\n不必規範？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:34.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:40.213000+08:00","text":"這樣便宜行事的作法，我們是完全沒有辦法接受的。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:40.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:44.275000+08:00","text":"以上這幾點，我必須在協商之\n前提出來說明。謝謝。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:47.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:48.221000+08:00","text":"謝謝王育敏委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:48.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:50.464000+08:00","text":"現在可以請衛福部長回應，並整體說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:08:56.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:08:58.337000+08:00","text":"向主席與各位委員說明。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:09:01.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:09:15.305000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員特別提到兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶條例，確\n實是有，而我現在要說明兩者之間的差異。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:09:15.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:09:49.789000+08:00","text":"過去兒少未來教育與發展帳戶的對象是弱勢兒少，\n有開戶金以及政府跟民眾相對提撥的設計，提撥進去、也就是家長存入帳戶裡面之後，政府也\n會對應地提撥，分別是 500 元、1,000 元到 1,250 元這 3 種選擇，都開個人帳戶，同時限縮提領\n。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:09:49.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:10:08.616000+08:00","text":"由於涉及對人民財產處分的限制，所以必須明文入法。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:10:09.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:10:56.650000+08:00","text":"而現在行政院所核定的成長津貼是仿\n照育兒津貼的方式，是一種給付行政，並未限縮到人民的財產，政府對 6 歲至 18 歲之間兒少發\n放 5,000 塊，其中 2,500 先直接撥付給家長或監護人，另外 2,500 預存在專戶裡，待兒少 18 歲時\n再直接給本人，所以屬於給付行政，沒有任何對人民權利的限縮。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:10:57.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:11:21.086000+08:00","text":"法律依據則是根據預算法，\n由行政機關提相關施政計畫，同時編列入年度公務預算，經立法院審查通過之後才據以實施，\n跟 107年當年啟動育兒津貼時的概念是一樣的，所以是一種給付行政。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:11:22.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:11:55.822000+08:00","text":"關於這樣的做法跟目前委員版本的差別性，第一，它沒有家長自存的設計，以避免貧富差距\n拉大，不會導致有錢者自存得多、沒有能力者無自存，所以能避免貧富間差距拉大。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:11:56.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:12:20.523000+08:00","text":"第二，它\n也省去每一個個人開戶的成本，因為設計上若是每一人都要開戶，開戶的行政成本與後端管理\n相對付出的社會成本很高，程序上也會很繁雜。","quality":0.623},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:12:21.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:12:43.409000+08:00","text":"第三，還可能涉及政府補貼，保障一定收益還\n會有政府補貼問題，自存部分又涉及政府補貼，其實在租稅公平上也是有爭議的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:12:43.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:12:59.362000+08:00","text":"所以我們希\n望維持現有兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶，也就是主要針對弱勢兒少，以降低世代貧窮的問\n題。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:12:59.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:15.093000+08:00","text":"另外，我們再用成長津貼直接給付行政，除了簡化行政，也避免貧富差距、落差擴大的問\n題，直接執行推動。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:15.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:15.994000+08:00","text":"以上說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:17.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:18.413000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:19.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:20.574000+08:00","text":"接著請邱慧洳委員。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:21.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:21.534000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:21.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:22.994000+08:00","text":"各位同仁，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:25.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:13:40.959000+08:00","text":"政府一直覺得臺灣未來帳戶的資金來源、經費分配這\n麼重要的事情不用立法，只需用要點或計畫規範就夠了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:13:41.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:07.093000+08:00","text":"事實上，為了追求永續性，我們覺得\n有立法的必要性，因為要點跟計畫其實沒有法律作為依據，有可能朝令夕改，換了一個人，也\n351\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄\n許因為有不同思維，計畫的美意就會戛然而止，所以為了永續性，我們拒絕用要點、我們拒絕\n用計畫，我們覺得要立法。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:08.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:09.275000+08:00","text":"立法到底有什麼缺點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:10.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:16.900000+08:00","text":"我們完全想不出將臺灣未來帳戶或你們所謂的成長津貼立法到底有什\n麼缺點。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:17.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:24.505000+08:00","text":"立法讓立法委員可以事先把關、事後監督，請問有什麼缺點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:24.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:27.887000+08:00","text":"為什麼要百般抗拒，甚\n至百般阻撓？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:29.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:49.482000+08:00","text":"我們是法治國家，法治國當然就是以法律作為施政的圭臬，我想依法行政也是行\n政部門所知悉的 ABC，如果臺灣未來帳戶沒有法律依據，請問政府要如何依法行政？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:49.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:14:59.870000+08:00","text":"如果不依\n法行政，豈不是所有行政作為都很容易有倒行逆施或違反民意的現象出現？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:14:59.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:15:05.335000+08:00","text":"所以我真的很想問\n一下衛福部，又或者問問政府，到底為何不立法？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:15:05.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:15:10.577000+08:00","text":"立法在你們眼中到底有什麼缺點，為什麼這\n樣百般抗拒、百般阻撓？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:15:12.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:15:25.845000+08:00","text":"剛剛育敏委員已經提到，這一、兩天我們聽到風聲，好像是如果臺灣\n未來帳戶最後三讀通過，你們的執政方程式又要出招了，所謂的執政方程式就是三不：不公布\n、不執行、不副署。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:15:27.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:15:36.912000+08:00","text":"我真的很想請教政府，你們現在已經這麼囂張，法律都還沒通過就開始放\n話了嗎？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:15:37.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:15:41.916000+08:00","text":"你們這是在恐嚇立法委員還是恐嚇全臺灣 2,300 萬人民？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:15:42.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:15:55.025000+08:00","text":"立法委員在立法院是代表人民\n行使職權、監督政府，法律都還沒通過就放話，請問你到底是對抗立法委員還是對抗全臺灣\n2,300萬人民？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:15:58.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:16:02.893000+08:00","text":"這是從要不要立法的角度分析，接著，我再補充說明一件事。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:16:03.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:16:24.589000+08:00","text":"剛剛石部長提到因為這是給付\n行政、對人民沒有不利益，所以不需要立法，我想糾正部長：不是只有不利益的行政措施才需\n要立法，給付行政也要有法律保留的概念，是要保留給立法委員、給立法院審查的。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:16:24.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:16:31.291000+08:00","text":"關於其目\n的，不利益當然會造成人民權利受損，所以需要立法委員把關。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:16:31.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:16:59.391000+08:00","text":"給付行政外表看似對人民有利\n益，但是如果擠壓到其他社福資源或其他政府施政經費的分配，也許對某一群人有利，對某一\n群人卻可能是不利的，所以並不是因為給付行政對人民有好處就不需要用立法的方式為之，給\n付行政也是法律保留事項，要保留給法律加以審查、加以監督。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:17:00.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:17:00.913000+08:00","text":"接著講實質層面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:17:03.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:17:23.008000+08:00","text":"在實質層面，臺灣未來帳戶從出生到 12 歲會有啟動金再加上撥補款，起心\n動念都是希望兒少在 18 歲時有人生第一桶金，不會因為家庭困境很大導致沒有拚搏人生的機會\n。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:17:23.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:17:41.442000+08:00","text":"由於有這樣處於弱勢的少年或兒童，所以我們透過臺灣未來帳戶這樣的制度，在他們 18 歲時\n就給他們人生的第一桶金，可以用在創業、就業、就學，還有房貸的首付款，我想這個美意其\n實是非常好的。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:17:42.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:17:48.508000+08:00","text":"當然，政府也提出兒童成長基金。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:17:48.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:00.238000+08:00","text":"你們的成長基金是對 0 到 5 歲發 5,000 元，6 歲之後把\n5,000 元切成兩半，一半也是現金給付，另一半提入你們所謂的兒童成長帳戶。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:00.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:02.700000+08:00","text":"我們想在兒童 18\n歲時給他們第一桶金，而你們在他們成長過程當中，已經把一部分的錢交給家長了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:03.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:25.195000+08:00","text":"有些家長\n不會為兒童存下來，可能有一些比較不幸的狀況，例如拿去賭博、拿去酗酒，或拿去做一些奢\n侈花費，把它花光了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:25.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:29.959000+08:00","text":"如果採這樣的制度設計，請問兒童到了 18 歲會有第一桶金嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:30.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:33.002000+08:00","text":"第一桶金\n的重要性在於有可能翻轉、改變一個兒少的未來。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:35.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:47.873000+08:00","text":"接著，你們一直批評我們的兒童未來帳戶有一個對存機制，如果對存機制不好，為什麼你們\n對弱勢家庭有對存機制？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:48.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:18:57.599000+08:00","text":"在兒童未來帳戶下，對存會造成貧富差距，那麼請問一下，為什麼你\n們對弱勢兒童的做法就不會造成貧富差距？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:18:58.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:12.252000+08:00","text":"我覺得不要為反對而反對、為阻礙而阻礙、為攻擊\n352\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄\n而攻擊，一樣的提存制度，為什麼你們行使就是好的政策，我們行使就會造成貧富差距這樣的\n問題呢？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:12.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:15.074000+08:00","text":"我先初步說明到這邊，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:15.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:15.935000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:16.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:16.876000+08:00","text":"接著請王正旭委員。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:21.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:21.271000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:22.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:37.626000+08:00","text":"今天針對臺灣未來帳戶特別條例草案，大家都講了很多，主管機關也做了\n一些說明，不過我相信還有很多必須持續討論。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:37.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:19:52.215000+08:00","text":"關於立法，我剛剛也聽到兩位委員提到，立法本身就是立法委員最重要的工作之一，為了全\n民福祉，我們希望透過好的立法讓全民福祉可以得到更好的照顧。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:19:52.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:20:12.187000+08:00","text":"當然，在立法過程裡，如何\n維持公平、如何有效讓行政成本適當處理都是非常重要的立法精神，所以針對今天討論的重點\n還是需要一些說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:20:13.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:20:44.407000+08:00","text":"國民黨與民眾黨所提出的未來帳戶特別條例因為是特別條例，所以編了特\n別預算，可是預算法第八十三條針對什麼情形之下適合用特別條例、特別預算支應加以規定，\n如果不是在這種狀況之下卻要用特別條例，基本上還是違反現有預算法內容，所以這部分還是\n需要先做處理、澄清。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:20:45.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:21:06.932000+08:00","text":"剛剛也討論到都還沒通過法案，為什麼已經有人放話不副署，我想政府單位應該要出面來澄\n清，而且要說明清楚，對立法本身事實上是不會有這個可能性產生的，這是我們要先請大家共\n同來瞭解的部分。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:21:07.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:21:34.110000+08:00","text":"我在立法提案說明裡面也有提到，從社會實證的數據來看，包括國民黨跟民\n眾黨版本規定的家長自存 10 萬元，對弱勢家庭來講，真的是看得到吃不到的制度，這樣反而會\n造成國庫稅金逆向補貼高收入家庭的遺憾，所以我剛才提到，公平的問題真的是需要好好地來\n處理。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-06-10T12:21:36.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:22:28.959000+08:00","text":"另外，有關如何減輕行政成本，在數位治理的時代，其實我們是用科技來減輕行政成本的負\n擔，但如果依照現在兩黨實證帳戶的設計，將來全臺可能有幾百萬的家庭要去臨櫃排隊，會造\n成非常多的行政跟時間上的成本，如果將來主管機關有更好的方式，用科學的方法、便民的方\n法，希望能夠有比較適當的機制，針對目前少子女化造成的這些問題可以做更好的處理，以上\n意見提供給大家參考。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:22:31.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:22:32.222000+08:00","text":"謝謝王正旭委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:22:32.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:22:32.522000+08:00","text":"接下來請陳菁徽委員。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:22:35.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:22:40.333000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝各位官員還有委員一起關心這個議題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:22:40.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:22:56.743000+08:00","text":"我們坐在這邊的同時，其實也\n已經發布了 5 月的出生率，5 月出生的新生兒人口是 6,800 人，2 月的時候我們覺得很震驚，因\n為從來沒有看過一個月有這麼低的，結果現在 5 月又是 6,800 人。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:22:58.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:23:26.026000+08:00","text":"這個議題從我進立法院到現在\n，幾乎每次總質詢都會質詢，並且不斷地在預警不到 11 萬、不到 10 萬，那很明顯地，不知道主\n管機關等一下想不想回應，不過今年我們的確是有風險不到 10 萬，因為我算了一下，每個月至\n少要有 8,000 個新生兒，所以在臺灣現在出生的每一個兒童都非常地寶貴，每一個兒童都非常地\n寶貴。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:23:26.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:23:48.463000+08:00","text":"我們用的本來就是一個人口永續的戰略，如果這個條例或者是這個津貼最後花的是變多\n，你應該要覺得高興，因為出生率有所增長；如果是雪崩式的一直在下降，就表示今年 520 賴\n清德所提出來的所有東西都來得太晚了。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:23:49.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:24:10.419000+08:00","text":"353\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄\n我想說的是，其實上次我們經過非常多的討論，郭國文委員的意見也非常地寶貴，大家都可\n以去翻上次的會議紀錄，他也經過了很長時間的研擬，還有參考國外的一些經驗，所以他講得\n非常好，我不知道主管機關到底有沒有吸收進去啦！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:24:11.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:24:20.606000+08:00","text":"剛剛有講到說本來要用的這個兒少條例，\n其實我質詢的時候就已經講它的問題所在了，第一，它的開戶最低是低到 5 成而已耶！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:24:21.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:24:23.428000+08:00","text":"就是沒\n有人去開。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:24:23.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:24:35.176000+08:00","text":"再來，你剛剛說對存，可是最後對存沒有辦法執行下去的人也非常多，所以它本身\n就有其問題了，這個是衛福部本來就應該要檢討的長久以來的問題。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:24:37.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:25:01.182000+08:00","text":"我們從有人總質詢、有人提案到進入公聽會、到進入逐條審查，我剛剛算了一下，大概已經\n花了半年了，立法院討論的東西衛福部一直沒有備案，上次也沒有備案，浪費大家一整天，今\n天還是兩手空空的來，所以我想問是不是完全不尊重國會啊？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:25:01.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:25:15.829000+08:00","text":"上一次我們逐條審查的時候，我\n覺得委員的意見都非常地好，那全案是保留，今天我們來到協商的現場，你們還是沒有任何的\n進度，然後就毫無準備，用一個拖字訣，這樣是完全不及格的。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:25:16.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:25:27.554000+08:00","text":"第二，以前行政單位最喜歡用「草率立法，需要審慎研議」當作擋箭牌，但這件事情，我剛\n剛講已經過半年了，我們每次都給了行政單位很充分餘裕的時間去評估、調整，但是到現在還\n是沒有看到一個版本端出來。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:25:27.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:25:29.615000+08:00","text":"第三，這個是涉及國庫的支出，還要建立個人的專戶，怎麼可能不需要立法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:25:29.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:26:14.445000+08:00","text":"剛剛一直跳針\n說這套制度是政府給錢發放福利的給付行政，只要編列預算就好，不需要另外立法，但是這個\n要嚴格地糾正，這個政策不僅涉及公帑的支出，還涉及國家要為全臺灣每一個出生的孩子建立\n個人金融專戶、到 18 歲的資金動用限制及監督的機制，完全是涉及人民的重大權利義務，這種\n規模的政策怎麼會不需要法律來授權？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:26:15.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:26:26.880000+08:00","text":"剛剛當然石部長也有講到他擔心這個、擔心那個，我們都希望可以逐條來看，比如說設定對\n存的規則，或者是設定上限等等的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:26:27.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:26:53.477000+08:00","text":"上次郭國文委員也一點一點說得非常地清楚了，如果一個\n月只有 6,800 個新生兒，你到後面面對的是嚴重的勞動力問題、保險的問題、社福的問題，你面\n對的是這麼多問題，所以郭國文委員才一直講到他覺得國家也要介入，雇主也應該要介入，家\n長也應該要介入，他覺得要多方介入才可以嘛！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:26:54.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:27:02.703000+08:00","text":"一定要透過正式的立法來保障法律穩定性還有\n永續性，所以衛福部說不用立法，我是覺得有一點離譜了。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:27:03.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:27:39.389000+08:00","text":"這邊有找到一個司法院釋字第 443 號解釋建立的重要性理論，認為涉及人民權利義務的重要\n事項應該由法律來訂定之，所以重大給付行政措施涉及國家財政資源分配與人民受益資格認定\n，不應僅由行政命令或年度預算處理，應該回歸法律保留原則，由立法院透過法律明定給付的\n對象、資格條件、經費來源、監督機制，以確保公平性、透明性還有財政紀律。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:27:40.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:27:59.785000+08:00","text":"最後，因為剛剛官員一直講到賴總統的做法不會擴大貧富差距，主計總處也是這樣子說，說\n無法照顧到真正的經濟弱勢，應該由行政部門通盤地研議，結果你們研議了這麼久，現在提出\n來的方案有排富嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:00.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:01.086000+08:00","text":"看起來還是一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:01.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:03.928000+08:00","text":"你們看起來就是給全國人民一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:05.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:11.114000+08:00","text":"我覺得今天衛福\n部沒有準備的狀況之下，真的非常不尊重立法部門，謝謝，以上。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:13.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:14.224000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳菁徽委員。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:14.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:17.307000+08:00","text":"接下來請范雲委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:17.307000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:18.628000+08:00","text":"354\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:18.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:41.706000+08:00","text":"我想先釐清一下，今天是委員會的協商，在場的其實是國民黨團跟民眾黨團的提案，還\n有郭國文委員的提案版本，上次審查的時候我有去，因為被保留所以有今天的協商，可是今天\n聽起來大家好像攻擊的都是衛福部的成長津貼，而不是回到保留的條文。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:42.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:28:46.028000+08:00","text":"我想先回到保留的條文，為什麼我們不支持？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:28:46.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:29:14.264000+08:00","text":"第一個理由，剛剛王醫師已經有提到了，我們\n這幾個會期一直在講，立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加歲出，應該要先徵詢行政院的意見\n，這樣子才不會違反預算法第九十一條，這個未來帳戶基本上就沒有先徵詢行政院的意見，所\n以它本質上就已經違反了預算法第九十一條。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:29:15.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:29:28.174000+08:00","text":"我想已經這麼多會期都有這樣的議題在了，所以\n這是第一個為什麼我們會保留的理由，甚至直接講就是反對這樣的提案。","quality":0.58},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:29:29.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:30:23.183000+08:00","text":"第二個，就內容來講，上次在委員會的時候我也有表達過意見，就是我們看到民眾黨跟國民\n黨團的版本這個設計，其實在公聽會裡面也有學者專家提到，所謂自存款的設計，允許家長每\n年可以存多少錢，企業還可以贊助，然後可以得到稅務的減免，家長團體就提到這種租稅扣抵\n跟免稅優惠其實對很多的基層家庭來說是看得到吃不到，相反的，20%的高所得家庭不僅有能力\n存滿上限，還能享受雙重減稅，對企業來講還有一個漏洞，它會不會變相協商把給員工的薪資\n放到這裡？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:30:25.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:30:33.110000+08:00","text":"這等於是造成富者越富、貧者越貧，擴大世代貧富差距。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:30:34.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:30:53.264000+08:00","text":"剛剛講衛福部那個部分沒\n有排富，衛福部那個部分當然我們要做的事情是平均化，每一個人都有的，跟這個貧富差距的\n擴大化是天差地別，所以就實質的版本內容，我也不支持。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:30:54.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:31:03.690000+08:00","text":"當然還有其他的原因，包含這個版\n本要自己去金融機構開立實體帳戶，其實也增加了行政的成本。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:31:05.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:31:45.171000+08:00","text":"回來談剛剛大家一直在攻擊衛福部的，我還是要幫忙講一下話，因為剛剛有委員用司法院的\n釋字第幾號，司法院後來釋字 614 號有再一次地公開地宣示，如果是限制人民自由的，那當然\n應該要立法；如果不是限制人民自由，以衛福部做的對人民是一個福利，是所謂的給付行政，\n其實沒有違反所謂的法律保留原則。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:31:46.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:32:17.587000+08:00","text":"我也要提醒大家，2011 年馬政府當時開始做的育嬰津貼，\n它其實就是屬於這樣的行政命令或所謂的給付行政，後來民進黨執政了，2018 年、2021 年、\n2023 年都是繼續而且調高額度，它都是用所謂的作業要點，並沒有因為政黨輪替而有不穩定的\n狀態。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:32:18.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:32:21.131000+08:00","text":"這幾個理由都是希望大家可以參考啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-10T12:32:21.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:32:37.320000+08:00","text":"畢竟現在我們討論的、保留的是在場的國民黨團跟民\n眾黨團的提案，這部分不管是就預算法的精神，還有就實質內容，我們真的是沒有辦法支持。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:32:37.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:32:37.640000+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:32:37.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:32:37.720000+08:00","text":"接下來請劉書彬委員。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:32:45.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:32:45.668000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:32:46.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:33:06.447000+08:00","text":"今天的發言重點有幾個，第一個是針對衛福部所提到的，的確過去到現在\n還存在的是一個兒童及少年教育與發展帳戶條例，其實我們很希望能夠知道執行的狀況，因為\n它最主要是對中低收入，對不對？","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:33:06.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:33:22.411000+08:00","text":"然後也有所謂的對存機制，但是剛才聽到幾位委員的敘述之\n後，大概知道這個對存的效果好像不太好，最重要的是，這樣的情況是不是因為他本身是中低\n收入，卻還要他拿錢去對存，其實本身設計就是有問題？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:33:22.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:33:23.911000+08:00","text":"而且這個條例好像從 107 年就開始，\n對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:33:30.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:33:49.038000+08:00","text":"這個條例已經有了，如果真的能夠發生幫助的話，對於少子女化也應該有效果，可是\n到現在新生兒出生人數已經進入到 10 萬人以下的情況之下，是不是真的要考慮到它的效果不好\n355\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄\n？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:33:49.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:34:28.710000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得要肯定衛福部之前有這樣的機制，現在民眾黨跟國民黨就是在這樣的基礎上面，\n像剛才這個帳戶條例本身就是有立法的基礎，然後也是有對存機制，當初政府已經在考慮用這\n個方式，除了是對低收入家庭的一種補助之外，更重要的是，它其實也希望人口能夠因此而成\n長，這是第一個部分。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:34:29.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:34:42.918000+08:00","text":"我希望等一下請衛福部針對這個條例或是這個帳戶的實施狀況再跟我們\n報告，因為看起來在野黨真的是在這個機制上面進行。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:34:43.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:34:57.266000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，其實本來就今天的議題，在上次的逐條審查當中，衛福部就應該有版本，可是\n為什麼沒有？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:34:57.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:35:37.436000+08:00","text":"因為衛福部石部長一直在說目前行政院有相關的行政給付等等，所以在野黨的版\n本跟執政黨的郭國文委員等十幾人的版本也不需要去討論，當初所持的立場是這樣子，我們今\n天才想說如果行政院是採取這個態度，而不是像我說的，本來行政院就已經有一個兒童及少年\n教育與發展帳戶條例機制，讓它的實施更普及化。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:35:41.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:35:58.276000+08:00","text":"當初的目的只是捐助、救助到低收入少年，\n可是現在的目的是更長遠，每一個現在或後來立法實施之後出生的孩子在 18 歲之前實現第一桶\n金。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:35:58.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:36:12.707000+08:00","text":"讓這個目標更為長遠，現在就有機會，而不是一個短視近利，只是發錢式的、沒有長遠效\n果的立法內容。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:36:13.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:36:18.094000+08:00","text":"條例透過這樣的規劃就會看出它長遠的重要性，所以我必須要強調，的確是必\n須要把它立法，就是在原來帳戶條例的基礎上面去擴大或是修整，這樣就很好了。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:36:19.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:37:14.995000+08:00","text":"第三個部分，就算是行政給付也應該知道，政黨對少子化對策會有不一樣的想像或是規劃，\n原來的美意可能因為政黨輪替的意見不同就會有差別，是不是更凸顯出來這個部分需要有立法\n院參與，而且要保障財政紀律的有效性，透過立法形式就呈現出必要性？","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:37:15.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:37:21.900000+08:00","text":"這是要提出來的第三\n個理由，絕對要立法，避免政黨輪替的差異性。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:37:22.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:37:50.984000+08:00","text":"第四個，現在賴總統所提出的少子化跟兒少津貼方案，0 到 6 歲已經有津貼，6 到 18 歲則有\n很大的差異性。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:37:53.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:37:59.211000+08:00","text":"現在在野黨所提出來的是，同樣是一個月拿 5,000，可是每個月 2,500 是直接現\n金撥付，另外 2,500 存起來。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:37:59.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:38:25.511000+08:00","text":"在這個情況之下，第一個，現金的部分可能就會被拿掉，因為沒有\n排富，假如有些比較貧苦的家庭，爸爸媽媽拿到就把它用到現在的生活所需，另外的 2,500 就把\n它留下來當作基金存起來，變成是一個專戶。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:38:25.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:38:40.815000+08:00","text":"這個帳戶當中也遇到一個問題是，這麼少的錢，\n郭國文委員有提到一個很重要的方案就是能夠對存，其實無涉到貧富差距，為什麼？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:38:41.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:38:50.754000+08:00","text":"因為本來\n就已經保障存 2,500，如果有家庭願意為了讓子女未來的第一桶金更多，就養成儲蓄習慣，甚至\n這樣的情況只會多不會變少，因為最基礎的部分已經有政府保障存入 2,500，所以絕對不會出現\n貧富不均的情況。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:38:50.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:39:35.745000+08:00","text":"另外，如果第一桶金的設計可以讓這個帳戶裡面有自提款，包括原來政府撥的，我們當然希\n望第一桶金能夠增長，也必須要透過立法的機制管理基金帳戶，所以現在這個情況絕對必須要\n立法規範就對了。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:39:35.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.596000+08:00","text":"我覺得最重要要強調的點就是現在在野黨所提出來的臺灣未來帳戶這個條例\n，最重要的機制就是可以延續著本來衛福部的兒童及少年教育與發展帳戶條例這樣的基礎上去\n擴展，甚至把它擴展到全部的人都可以加入到這樣的制度，所以我提供這樣的意見，請衛福部\n回應。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.616000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.796000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉書彬委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.936000+08:00","text":"接下來請林月琴召委。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:40:04.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T12:40:12.480000+08:00","text":"356\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:40:12.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:40:41.913000+08:00","text":"1 月 12 日開詢答的時候就已經有提出今天這個特別條例要用特別預算，但依預算法\n第八十三條規定，本來行政院只能因國防緊急設施或戰爭、國家經濟重大變故、重大災變、不\n定期或數年一次之重大政事，可以提出特別預算，可是今天這個框架本來就不適合。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:40:42.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:41:18.737000+08:00","text":"另外，在那一次也有提醒預算法第九十一條的規定，剛剛王正旭委員也有特別在講，立法委\n員所提的法案，如果有大幅增加歲出或減少歲入者，都應該要徵詢行政院意見，並指明財源，\n可是一直到 4 月 2 日開公聽會，我不知道提出版本的有沒有去徵詢過並瞭解，否則的話，最後\n變成什麼？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:41:19.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:41:25.221000+08:00","text":"如果未來帳戶最後就是要靠舉債來買單的話，這到底是投資未來還是在跟未來借錢\n？","quality":0.543},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:41:26.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:41:32.125000+08:00","text":"如果要投資未來的錢居然是跟下一代舉債借的，這當然就會很諷刺。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:41:32.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:41:40.230000+08:00","text":"第二個，公聽會 4 月 2 日舉辦，為什麼要辦公聽會？","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:41:40.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:41:57.884000+08:00","text":"就是要讓關心的人、專業的人或公民團\n體來提這個法案要制定，到底能不能符合民意，到底合不合學理背景？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:41:58.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:42:11.173000+08:00","text":"當天有很多教授提出來\n，我唸一下，淡江大學經濟系教授蔡明芳就指出，這項政策恐怕無法真正解決少子女化問題，\n甚至可能擴大貧富差距。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:42:11.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:42:22.700000+08:00","text":"他直言說，在貧富差距的基礎上去談平權，就是繼續維持貧富差距，\n甚至擴大貧富差距，並認為這像是普發現金的變體而已。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:42:23.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:42:44.511000+08:00","text":"東吳大學的葉重陽教授也說，如果複\n利效果可能讓窮小孩跟富有家庭孩子的資產差距擴大到十倍，他更強調，投資在公托上，是社\n會投資的核心，不是投資在未來的帳戶上，那就是在投資金融市場而已。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:42:46.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:43:06.503000+08:00","text":"公聽會舉辦就是廣收\n民意，既然這麼多人不是這麼支持，甚至基於學理上的背景，也提出了很多不太主張用這樣的\n方式來做的說法，後來我們就看到法上一直出現同一個問題，即使解釋再解釋，好像都沒有人\n理解。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:43:06.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:43:23.616000+08:00","text":"我要再強調一次，根據這個條例的話，除了政府給每一位孩子的啟動金，的確弱勢家庭\n都有，一般家庭也有，都有這個啟動金跟撥補款，可是弱勢家庭的家長有很好的工作嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:43:23.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:43:38.163000+08:00","text":"他今\n天會成為弱勢，就是有弱勢的一些條件存在，可是經濟狀況很好的家長，每年還可以自存最高\n10 萬元，你說家長有錢存為什麼不行，可是你還給他減稅，弱勢反而事實上是沒有辦法得到減\n稅。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:43:41.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:43:58.817000+08:00","text":"我相信如果經濟狀況很好的家長，他可能在幸福企業工作，搞不好這些雇主也可以拿出錢\n來，可是弱勢家庭的家長可能是非典型的工作，可能是在工地打工，這樣的雇主會去替員工的\n子女加碼存入 5 萬塊嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:43:59.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:12.226000+08:00","text":"同樣地，享有抵稅優惠的高收入家庭小孩，如果自存款再加上企業贊\n助款每年存好存滿，他 18 歲的時候帳戶內的本金加上利息，最高可以累積到 196 萬。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:44:14.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:20.781000+08:00","text":"弱勢家庭\n家長如果沒有穩定工作，沒有多餘的錢，最後就是政府投入的 16 萬，這價差多少？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:44:20.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:20.901000+08:00","text":"價差 180 萬\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:44:20.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:40.007000+08:00","text":"假設 18 年的投資複利成長，就誠如剛才我提到的東吳大學葉教授講的，真的會差更多，兩者\n的差距可能會擴大到 250 萬，甚至 300 萬以上，怎麼沒有貧富差距呢？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:44:40.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:42.008000+08:00","text":"怎麼是在欺負弱勢呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:44:44.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:57.092000+08:00","text":"一個國家在講平等的時候，應該要把弱勢拉起來，讓他們可以在臺灣這個社會生存，可是每次\n談到這個都一直說沒有貧富差距，沒有貧富差距，我就不懂，是我的數學不太好呢？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:44:57.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:44:59.733000+08:00","text":"還是其他\n人數學比我更好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:00.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:07.515000+08:00","text":"我也不太了解，今天明明講得這麼清楚，我也不知道，為什麼只要提到這個\n都說沒有貧富差距？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:09.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:12.237000+08:00","text":"公聽會大家都講了，結果你們還是要一意孤行來執行這個法案。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:13.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:22.801000+08:00","text":"最後，我要講說，剛才有人說有耳語，而耳語是記者自己的報導，那他到底聽到誰講啊？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:22.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:25.022000+08:00","text":"說\n什麼不副署，到底怎麼傳出來的？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:25.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:31.105000+08:00","text":"如果一個立委會相信這樣的耳語，我也覺得滿特別的，有沒\n有查證今天是誰講出來這句話？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:31.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:32.087000+08:00","text":"沒有查證的話，在國會殿堂這樣講，我覺得不太恰當。以上。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:32.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:40.764000+08:00","text":"357\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:40.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:40.764000+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴委員。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:42.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:43.145000+08:00","text":"接下來請邱慧洳委員。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:43.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:44.565000+08:00","text":"是，不好意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:44.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:45:50.947000+08:00","text":"我坐在這邊，有必要以正視聽，因為我覺得有人在亂詮釋法律。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:45:51.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:46:07.892000+08:00","text":"關於\n法律保留，剛剛菁徽委員有提到釋字第 443 號解釋，就提到法律保留，那我想法律保留是一個\n法律系的學生、乃至於法律人都應該知道的基本觀念，我覺得已經是一個 ABC 層級的法學知識\n。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:46:12.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:46:24.800000+08:00","text":"第 443 號解釋揭櫫一個層級化法律保留的概念，有四個層次：第一個層次就是憲法保留，第\n二層次就是絕對保留，第三個層次就是相對保留，第四個層次就是不須保留。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:46:25.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:46:26.581000+08:00","text":"什麼叫憲法保留\n？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:46:26.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:46:46.272000+08:00","text":"就是你要拘束人民的行動自由，必須要用憲法的方式來約束，因為人民的行動自由是一個至\n高無上的權利，所以憲法第八條也規範了，如果要約束、限制人民的自由，那就是用憲法來保\n留，就是交給憲法來制定，就是憲法第八條。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:46:46.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:46:57.178000+08:00","text":"絕對保留就是說，如果侵害人民的權利，即使是\n重大的事由也絕對要由法律來制定，所制定的密度就要非常高。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:46:58.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:46:59.119000+08:00","text":"什麼叫相對法律保留？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:46:59.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:47:09.328000+08:00","text":"就是你\n侵害人民的權利相對比較輕微，但是也是有干預到人民權利的情況之下，也要用法律來保留，\n只是密度比較低。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:47:10.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:47:22.559000+08:00","text":"侵害人民權利，輕微的情形，要用相對法律來保留之外，還有給付行政，如\n果是重大的給付行政，也要交給法律來制定，所以也要奉行法律保留的概念。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:47:23.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:47:24.881000+08:00","text":"那不用法律保留\n的是什麼事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:47:25.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:47:36.846000+08:00","text":"像輕微的給付行政，或者是行政機關在針對一些技術性、細瑣性、技術層面的事\n情來做規範，確實是不用法律保留。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:47:37.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:47:55.633000+08:00","text":"現在就想請問大家一件事，今天國民黨跟民眾黨所提出的\n臺灣未來帳戶經費規模涉及 4,000 億，民主進步黨所提出來的版本大概有 2,000 到 3,800 億的規\n模，這不是重大的給付行政嗎？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-06-10T12:48:00.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:48:17.422000+08:00","text":"輕微的給付行政也許不用法律保留，如果是重大的給付行政，\n還是要法律保留，所以剛剛有人提到給付行政不用法律保留，我覺得這是一個謬論，也是一個\n說法不精確的法律概念詮釋，我在這邊就跟大家澄清，謝謝。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:48:17.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:48:17.442000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:48:17.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:48:17.823000+08:00","text":"請部長一起回應委員的發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:48:24.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:48:26.518000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝所有委員的指教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:48:28.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:49:04.964000+08:00","text":"剛剛陳委員關心兒少未來教育與發展帳戶的執行情形，我\n們必須再強調，兒少未來教育與發展帳戶的制定並不是為了少子女化的問題，它主要是在解決\n世代貧窮，希望促進兒少未來能夠自力發展而設的條例，所以這個條例的設計才會有開戶金以\n及政府的對撥，是針對弱勢兒少。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:49:05.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:49:16.171000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，它的開戶率大概是 60%，續存率大概是 88%，\n當然還是有它應該要更提高的部分。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:49:18.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:49:49.396000+08:00","text":"明年開始實施成長津貼，相對地，從 0 到 6 歲會有每個月\n5,000 元的成長津貼，6 歲到 18 歲每個月有 2,500 元的成長津貼，剛好可以協助這些弱勢的家庭\n比較有能力自存進去，然後政府再對存進去，這樣的設計等於是更挹注給弱勢兒少未來的自力\n發展。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:49:50.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:49:51.877000+08:00","text":"這是第一個補充。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:49:53.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:50:03.004000+08:00","text":"未來成長津貼開始實施之後，對於弱勢兒少的幫忙是更大的，這是第\n一個。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:50:04.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:50:47.425000+08:00","text":"第二個，我要再強調，以目前這個法律的版本，是用特別條例的方式，不論是在體例或內容\n上，確實還是存在一些爭議，但現在行政院所核准、我們開始編入到明年公務預算裡面的成長\n津貼是馬上就務實可行，而且我們也願意在立法院的監督之下，進行預算審查及未來的執行成\n效報告，我們都願意在立法院的監督之下來推動。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:50:47.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:51:04.680000+08:00","text":"更何況，對照於很早就開始實施的育兒津貼\n358\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 51期 黨團協商紀錄\n，這是 101 年就開始實施至今，所以一個好的政策並不會因為政黨的輪替而有所減損。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:51:06.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:51:50.058000+08:00","text":"再者，\n以近期而言，我們也實施了生育補助的提高，從今年開始，不論有沒有各項保險，不論有沒有\n社會保險，生育補助一律都拉高到 10 萬元，這個其實也沒有訂定任何法律，也是經過立法院審\n查通過，認為這樣的做法是有益民眾，對全民是好的，所以我們今年也就實施了，這個也要謝\n謝立法院願意讓這個政策實施，雖然預算還沒有審查完畢，但是當時在立法院也同意部分計畫\n可先行動支。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:51:50.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:52:27.552000+08:00","text":"其實這個就是我們在立法院監督之下，恪遵依法行政來執行的，所以過去的政策\n，遠的有 101 年開始實施的育兒津貼，近的有我們今年開始做的生育補助，這一些都是按照過\n去給付行政的規定來執行，所以再請委員能夠支持，我們先以行政院核定成長津貼這樣的執行\n方式編入明年的預算，接受立法院的監督。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-06-10T12:52:28.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:52:36.438000+08:00","text":"至於臺灣未來帳戶特別條例，確實還有若干的爭議\n存在，需要有更多的時間去討論。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:52:44.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T12:52:57.894000+08:00","text":"因為今日行政機關仍無法提出建議版本，各委員發言意見也沒有共識，現在宣告：本日協商\n無共識，依立法院職權行使法第十二章相關規定辦理。散會。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T12:52:58.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T12:52:59.536857+08:00","text":"散會（12時 52 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