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委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員羅明才等18人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員羅智強等17人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員賴士葆等19人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林倩綺等23人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員葉元之等19人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員張雅琳等18人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員吳思瑤等16人擬具「高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n(一) 委員柯志恩等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案\n四、審查\n(一) 委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員葉元之等18人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員許宇甄等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n……(因系統字數上限，詳參議事日程)）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:33:53 - 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30分"},{"start":1679.92,"end":1682.0800000000002,"text":"地點本年清晨101會意識"},{"start":1682.0800000000002,"end":1684.3200000000002,"text":"出席委員蔡村酬委員等13人"},{"start":1684.3200000000002,"end":1686.1200000000001,"text":"內籍委員林茜吉委員等3人"},{"start":1687.15,"end":1691.75,"text":"內籍人員運動部部長李洋率同有關人員主席羅昭基委員廷偉"},{"start":1691.75,"end":1692.5500000000002,"text":"報告事項"},{"start":1693.32,"end":1695.62,"text":"宣讀上次會意識入決定"},{"start":1695.62,"end":1696.52,"text":"意識入決定"},{"start":1696.52,"end":1697.32,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":1697.81,"end":1700.11,"text":"繼續審查委員羅廷偉等21人"},{"start":1700.11,"end":1703.9099999999999,"text":"擬具電子競技運動發展基本法草案等兩案"},{"start":1703.9099999999999,"end":1707.61,"text":"本日會議有委員林怡錦等12人提出質詢"},{"start":1708.32,"end":1711.52,"text":"京京運動部部長李洋及相關人員及其答復說明"},{"start":1711.52,"end":1714.4199999999998,"text":"另有委員柯志仁林茜吉提出書面質詢"},{"start":1714.4199999999998,"end":1716.52,"text":"決議1報告及尋討完畢"},{"start":1716.52,"end":1719.62,"text":"2為對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料"},{"start":1719.62,"end":1722.9199999999998,"text":"或會及答復部問請相關機關進述與書面答復"},{"start":1722.9199999999998,"end":1726.82,"text":"3電子競技運動發展基本法草案相關草案"},{"start":1726.82,"end":1728.52,"text":"另定期繼續審查"},{"start":1728.52,"end":1729.9199999999998,"text":"通過臨時提案一項"},{"start":1729.9199999999998,"end":1730.72,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1733.55,"end":1737.35,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議思路有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1739.41,"end":1740.51,"text":"好 意識路確定"},{"start":1741.92,"end":1746.6200000000001,"text":"本日會議議程是審查委員柯志仁18人等你去"},{"start":1749.45,"end":1749.95,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":1752.38,"end":1752.88,"text":"可以"},{"start":1762.98,"end":1763.7800000000002,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":1763.7800000000002,"end":1765.5800000000002,"text":"我們今天要先程序發言"},{"start":1765.5800000000002,"end":1768.68,"text":"關於召委不不審預算"},{"start":1768.68,"end":1769.7800000000002,"text":"值班考察這件事情"},{"start":1769.7800000000002,"end":1771.38,"text":"我們要提出嚴正的抗議"},{"start":1771.38,"end":1772.7800000000002,"text":"我們手上有個清單"},{"start":1772.7800000000002,"end":1774.38,"text":"是關於羅庭偉召委"},{"start":1774.38,"end":1776.68,"text":"他必須負責的部會相關總預算"},{"start":1776.68,"end":1779.38,"text":"到目前為止都沒有進行實質的審查"},{"start":1779.38,"end":1781.48,"text":"那我們看到除了考察之外"},{"start":1781.48,"end":1783.88,"text":"包含今天排的相關法案的議程"},{"start":1783.88,"end":1785.98,"text":"其中很多民進黨委員的版本"},{"start":1785.98,"end":1787.7800000000002,"text":"都還在複裔期當中"},{"start":1787.7800000000002,"end":1789.88,"text":"那也都沒有因此也都沒有被放進來"},{"start":1789.88,"end":1791.7800000000002,"text":"我們要表達沉重的抗議"},{"start":1791.78,"end":1793.28,"text":"那我想跟大家報告一下"},{"start":1793.48,"end":1796.78,"text":"目前羅庭偉委員所必須負責的部會預算有哪些呢"},{"start":1796.78,"end":1797.28,"text":"第一個"},{"start":1797.48,"end":1799.48,"text":"文化部及所屬單位預算"},{"start":1799.68,"end":1802.48,"text":"還有運動部所屬單位的預算"},{"start":1802.58,"end":1805.68,"text":"當然文化部底下還有表議中心等等這些"},{"start":1805.78,"end":1808.3799999999999,"text":"那最後呢還有國家太空中心"},{"start":1808.3799999999999,"end":1810.48,"text":"國家災害防災科技中心"},{"start":1810.68,"end":1811.68,"text":"還有國安會"},{"start":1813.95,"end":1814.85,"text":"等等這些"},{"start":1814.85,"end":1816.95,"text":"然後甚至國家運動產業發展中心"},{"start":1816.95,"end":1818.45,"text":"國家運動訓練中心"},{"start":1818.55,"end":1820.25,"text":"還有相關跟運動有關"},{"start":1820.25,"end":1822.45,"text":"也就是文化部運動部和安會"},{"start":1822.6499999999999,"end":1824.55,"text":"還有故宮這些等等哦"},{"start":1824.85,"end":1826.75,"text":"該是負責羅庭偉委員的部分"},{"start":1826.75,"end":1828.85,"text":"由他負責都還沒有進行審查"},{"start":1828.95,"end":1829.85,"text":"那我不知道"},{"start":1830.05,"end":1833.1499999999999,"text":"之前刻意提了言諱說要好好審查預算"},{"start":1833.25,"end":1834.1499999999999,"text":"好好處理事情"},{"start":1834.1499999999999,"end":1835.85,"text":"但是為什麼到現在為止"},{"start":1835.95,"end":1838.05,"text":"我們看從昨天的電競法"},{"start":1838.1499999999999,"end":1839.75,"text":"相關一整天的時間"},{"start":1839.75,"end":1841.25,"text":"然後到今天相關的法案"},{"start":1841.35,"end":1842.55,"text":"民進黨委員的版本"},{"start":1842.65,"end":1844.25,"text":"也都因為在複一期當中"},{"start":1844.25,"end":1846.35,"text":"沒有辦法被送進來實施審查"},{"start":1846.45,"end":1847.35,"text":"那我要說"},{"start":1847.45,"end":1850.45,"text":"一個負責任專任的召委所必須處理的"},{"start":1850.45,"end":1852.45,"text":"當然是公平的對待每一個"},{"start":1852.65,"end":1853.75,"text":"委員的提案"},{"start":1853.75,"end":1856.85,"text":"他應該都被照顧在相關的排程當中"},{"start":1856.95,"end":1858.45,"text":"此外總預算的部分"},{"start":1858.45,"end":1859.85,"text":"現在已經六月中了"},{"start":1860.05,"end":1863.15,"text":"距離行政院把總預算送進立法院來"},{"start":1863.15,"end":1864.65,"text":"已經快要300天了"},{"start":1864.75,"end":1865.75,"text":"而這麼長的時間"},{"start":1865.75,"end":1867.65,"text":"不審總預算到底要做什麼"},{"start":1867.65,"end":1870.95,"text":"所以我們今天雖然沒有辦法主張變更議程"},{"start":1870.95,"end":1872.25,"text":"但是在程序發言上"},{"start":1872.3500000000001,"end":1873.75,"text":"我們要再次拜託"},{"start":1873.75,"end":1875.05,"text":"公開拜託召委"},{"start":1875.15,"end":1877.65,"text":"把您所負責相關部會的總預算"},{"start":1877.75,"end":1879.45,"text":"開始進行實施審查"},{"start":1879.45,"end":1880.25,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":1883.77,"end":1886.37,"text":"回應一下那個培育委員"},{"start":1886.47,"end":1888.07,"text":"可能委員沒有注意到"},{"start":1888.07,"end":1890.77,"text":"昨天會議是議事錄已經確定"},{"start":1891.3999999999999,"end":1893.8999999999999,"text":"我們就是6月11收件"},{"start":1894.3,"end":1896,"text":"相關大家的提案"},{"start":1896.3999999999999,"end":1899.3999999999999,"text":"所以目前都在進行當中"},{"start":1899.3999999999999,"end":1901.1,"text":"我們有自己的期程"},{"start":1901.3999999999999,"end":1903.3,"text":"也希望委員能夠尊重"},{"start":1903.7,"end":1906.1,"text":"那至於不復議同意書"},{"start":1906.77,"end":1907.27,"text":"我想"},{"start":1908.38,"end":1909.2800000000002,"text":"可能委員"},{"start":1910.05,"end":1912.15,"text":"也要麻煩大家有個默契"},{"start":1912.15,"end":1913.95,"text":"因為上次葛如軍委員"},{"start":1914.3500000000001,"end":1916.3500000000001,"text":"簽相關的法案的時候"},{"start":1916.65,"end":1918.15,"text":"貴黨也不願意簽"},{"start":1918.45,"end":1919.45,"text":"不復議同意書"},{"start":1920.05,"end":1920.95,"text":"所以我想"},{"start":1921.51,"end":1925.21,"text":"那我們持續接下來的會議議程"},{"start":1928.36,"end":1930.6599999999999,"text":"本會議議程是審查委員"},{"start":1930.6599999999999,"end":1931.76,"text":"柯志恩等18人"},{"start":1931.76,"end":1933.4599999999998,"text":"擬具高級中等教育法"},{"start":1933.56,"end":1934.86,"text":"第20條條文修正"},{"start":1935.58,"end":1937.78,"text":"委員王宏威等24人"},{"start":1937.78,"end":1939.78,"text":"擬具高級中等教育法"},{"start":1939.78,"end":1941.48,"text":"第58條條文修正"},{"start":1942.29,"end":1944.49,"text":"委員柯志恩等16人"},{"start":1944.79,"end":1946.99,"text":"擬具大學法第35條條文修正"},{"start":1948.84,"end":1950.44,"text":"委員柯志恩等16人"},{"start":1950.44,"end":1953.94,"text":"擬具專科學校法第44條條文修正"},{"start":1955.57,"end":1956.97,"text":"委員范雲等16人"},{"start":1956.97,"end":1958.27,"text":"擬具學校公參法"},{"start":1959.37,"end":1960.27,"text":"等39案"},{"start":1964.15,"end":1965.3500000000001,"text":"委員柯志恩"},{"start":1966.36,"end":1967.16,"text":"吳立華"},{"start":1967.46,"end":1967.96,"text":"吳佩儀"},{"start":1968.49,"end":1969.19,"text":"張亞玲"},{"start":1969.94,"end":1970.64,"text":"陳培育"},{"start":1971.17,"end":1971.8700000000001,"text":"吳思榮"},{"start":1972.87,"end":1973.57,"text":"等提案"},{"start":1974.1,"end":1975.9,"text":"因吳不復議同意書"},{"start":1976.3,"end":1977.1,"text":"故不予審查"},{"start":1978.17,"end":1980.17,"text":"首先介紹在場的委員"},{"start":1980.8,"end":1981.7,"text":"陳培育委員"},{"start":1983.94,"end":1984.8400000000001,"text":"陳秀華委員"},{"start":1986.19,"end":1987.29,"text":"林茜淇委員"},{"start":1988.38,"end":1989.38,"text":"羅志強委員"},{"start":1990.2,"end":1991.1000000000001,"text":"柯志恩委員"},{"start":1992.48,"end":1993.88,"text":"接著介紹與會的官員"},{"start":1994.59,"end":1995.79,"text":"教育部常務市長"},{"start":1995.79,"end":1996.49,"text":"朱俊章"},{"start":1999.82,"end":2002.12,"text":"財政部附稅署專門委員吳秀琳"},{"start":2004.6499999999999,"end":2008.05,"text":"國防部人事參謀次長室"},{"start":2008.35,"end":2009.25,"text":"助理次長"},{"start":2009.45,"end":2010.85,"text":"薛柏楊"},{"start":2013.37,"end":2015.37,"text":"衛生福利部及社會救助"},{"start":2015.57,"end":2017.47,"text":"及社公司檢認市場"},{"start":2017.47,"end":2018.47,"text":"王彥琴"},{"start":2020.8,"end":2022.8999999999999,"text":"法務參事王南軍"},{"start":2024.29,"end":2027.59,"text":"農業部農糧署副署長黃昭興"},{"start":2029.49,"end":2033.39,"text":"環境部化學物質管理署主長林松景"},{"start":2035.26,"end":2038.26,"text":"行政院足跡總處公務預算處"},{"start":2038.46,"end":2040.46,"text":"專門委員王淺凱"},{"start":2045.32,"end":2049.12,"text":"其餘列席的機關代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹"},{"start":2049.12,"end":2050.32,"text":"並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2051.46,"end":2052.86,"text":"現在進行提案說明"},{"start":2052.86,"end":2054.46,"text":"請問有委員要提案說明嗎"},{"start":2058.09,"end":2060.19,"text":"好 有請林謙奇委員"},{"start":2070.91,"end":2073.11,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席羅昭偉"},{"start":2073.5099999999998,"end":2078.21,"text":"本席今天提出的這個高級中等教育法第58條"},{"start":2078.41,"end":2081.5099999999998,"text":"還有專科學校法第44條的修正草案"},{"start":2081.71,"end":2083.91,"text":"那麼主要的目的是在減輕學生"},{"start":2084.11,"end":2085.91,"text":"以及家庭就業的這個負擔"},{"start":2086.11,"end":2088.5099999999998,"text":"來提升教育投資的可負擔性"},{"start":2088.91,"end":2093.11,"text":"讓青年不會因為經濟的因素而背負過重的這個債務"},{"start":2093.5099999999998,"end":2097.11,"text":"那麼現行的制度雖然提供了就學協助學生"},{"start":2097.21,"end":2098.81,"text":"就學貸款來協助學生"},{"start":2099.0099999999998,"end":2100.31,"text":"來完成學業"},{"start":2100.41,"end":2103.0099999999998,"text":"只是貸款的利息還是由學生在負擔"},{"start":2103.21,"end":2107.5099999999998,"text":"那麼實際上有學生也因為無力償還就學貸款"},{"start":2107.71,"end":2110.5099999999998,"text":"而遭到金融機構申請強制執行"},{"start":2110.61,"end":2112.41,"text":"那麼甚至在投入職場後"},{"start":2112.61,"end":2115.11,"text":"就面臨薪資遭扣押的困境"},{"start":2115.41,"end":2116.5099999999998,"text":"那麼相關的調查"},{"start":2116.61,"end":2118.61,"text":"親人負債的來源當中"},{"start":2118.81,"end":2120.71,"text":"學貸更是比例很高的一項"},{"start":2121.0099999999998,"end":2123.31,"text":"那麼顯示這中間的許多年輕人"},{"start":2123.5099999999998,"end":2125.31,"text":"已經因為這樣子的一個壓力"},{"start":2125.61,"end":2127.41,"text":"才產生一些經濟的困境"},{"start":2127.81,"end":2128.91,"text":"那另外一方面"},{"start":2129.21,"end":2131.6099999999997,"text":"政府的就學貸款利息補貼支出"},{"start":2131.91,"end":2135.0099999999998,"text":"由民國96年的40億億元"},{"start":2135.41,"end":2138.6099999999997,"text":"來降至113年的20餘億元"},{"start":2138.81,"end":2140.71,"text":"那麼申請的人數也大幅減少"},{"start":2140.91,"end":2143.6099999999997,"text":"那麼整個財政負擔看起來已經比較趨緩"},{"start":2143.91,"end":2147.6099999999997,"text":"那麼政府已經有進一步強化支持措施的空間"},{"start":2147.81,"end":2149.91,"text":"所以本案在明定學生"},{"start":2150.1099999999997,"end":2153.0099999999998,"text":"就學貸款利息由教育部來編列預算"},{"start":2153.21,"end":2157.0099999999998,"text":"全額補助來降低青年就學跟畢業後的還款壓力"},{"start":2157.01,"end":2160.8100000000004,"text":"讓學生能夠更專注在學習與職能的發展"},{"start":2161.01,"end":2165.01,"text":"那這樣也能夠展現國家對教育投資跟青年發展的支持"},{"start":2165.21,"end":2167.8100000000004,"text":"那麼以上的說明請各位來支持"},{"start":2168.01,"end":2168.3100000000004,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2171.66,"end":2172.16,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2173.89,"end":2175.19,"text":"有請下一位羅志祥委員"},{"start":2184.82,"end":2188.42,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位練習的官員"},{"start":2188.82,"end":2193.42,"text":"那麼這次修正我們的高級中學教育法第58條"},{"start":2193.6200000000003,"end":2197.6200000000003,"text":"專科學校法第44條大學法第35條"},{"start":2198.02,"end":2204.42,"text":"那我們希望由主管機關來編列預算負擔學貸的利息"},{"start":2204.82,"end":2208.2200000000003,"text":"那現在申請學貸的在學生"},{"start":2208.42,"end":2212.42,"text":"絕大部分是由政府補貼在學期間學貸利息"},{"start":2212.6200000000003,"end":2214.42,"text":"畢業後才開始複習"},{"start":2214.42,"end":2219.62,"text":"但我們希望是能夠畢業後的利息也由政府來負擔"},{"start":2219.82,"end":2225.2200000000003,"text":"讓高處社會的年輕人可以免於因為在學期間"},{"start":2225.42,"end":2228.82,"text":"求學期間他所累積的利息"},{"start":2229.02,"end":2231.42,"text":"然後跟物價飛漲的壓力"},{"start":2231.62,"end":2237.2200000000003,"text":"讓我們的年輕人一出社會就面臨過度沉重的負擔"},{"start":2237.42,"end":2239.82,"text":"那麼在本席的修法版本當中"},{"start":2240.2200000000003,"end":2245.02,"text":"也特別指出政府補助家庭所得5等分"},{"start":2245.2200000000003,"end":2251.02,"text":"最低20%的經濟弱勢大專院校學生可免納學費"},{"start":2251.2200000000003,"end":2255.02,"text":"這些在在都是希望能夠來去實現"},{"start":2255.2200000000003,"end":2257.02,"text":"賴清德總統自己講的"},{"start":2257.2200000000003,"end":2260.02,"text":"用國家的力量投資下一代"},{"start":2260.2200000000003,"end":2264.02,"text":"讓每個孩子都擁有公平發展的機會"},{"start":2264.2200000000003,"end":2269.2200000000003,"text":"讓孩子們出社會時都能夠輕裝上陣"},{"start":2269.22,"end":2273.22,"text":"讓年輕人更輕盈邁向人生新階段"},{"start":2273.4199999999996,"end":2275.22,"text":"勇敢追逐夢想"},{"start":2275.4199999999996,"end":2279.4199999999996,"text":"所以如果我們的政府希望讓我們的年輕人"},{"start":2279.62,"end":2282.8199999999997,"text":"現在真的很辛苦的年輕人可以輕裝上陣"},{"start":2283.02,"end":2286.62,"text":"面對社會非常大的挑戰跟壓力的話"},{"start":2286.8199999999997,"end":2292.8199999999997,"text":"那我想今天我們所推動的修法工作就非常的重要"},{"start":2293.02,"end":2294.4199999999996,"text":"那我也要特別提出來"},{"start":2294.62,"end":2296.02,"text":"就是因為少子化"},{"start":2296.22,"end":2298.4199999999996,"text":"升級學代人數逐年下降"},{"start":2298.82,"end":2303.2200000000003,"text":"那根據教育部統計103年的懸念度"},{"start":2303.42,"end":2306.2200000000003,"text":"大概是57萬人次生代"},{"start":2306.42,"end":2308.82,"text":"那10年後113年度"},{"start":2309.02,"end":2312.02,"text":"懸念度只剩下33萬人次"},{"start":2312.2200000000003,"end":2318.42,"text":"生代金額從233億元減少到114億元"},{"start":2318.62,"end":2322.02,"text":"那這相對也使得政府其實"},{"start":2322.2200000000003,"end":2326.42,"text":"也有更多的經費可以用來放寬學代的措施"},{"start":2326.42,"end":2333.42,"text":"那賴總統也提出要將學代利率從1.775%降為0.775%"},{"start":2333.62,"end":2335.82,"text":"那教育部預估再降1%"},{"start":2336.02,"end":2338.42,"text":"大概是每年投入15億的預算"},{"start":2338.62,"end":2342.82,"text":"所以如果我們今天能夠再更進一步的話"},{"start":2343.02,"end":2346.42,"text":"把它降到0其實也不會再超過多降1%"},{"start":2346.62,"end":2350.82,"text":"那因此增加的預算其實並不會超過15億"},{"start":2351.02,"end":2354.82,"text":"那這是為什麼我們今天希望能夠提出來的一個"},{"start":2354.82,"end":2357.02,"text":"修法的重心"},{"start":2357.2200000000003,"end":2361.02,"text":"就是希望站在年輕人的視角"},{"start":2361.2200000000003,"end":2364.02,"text":"來看看他們所面臨的挑戰"},{"start":2364.2200000000003,"end":2366.2200000000003,"text":"那作為政府的單位"},{"start":2366.42,"end":2371.82,"text":"應該要成為年輕人最大的助力跟最強的後盾"},{"start":2372.02,"end":2375.82,"text":"所以也希望我們今天的修法能夠順利的通過"},{"start":2376.02,"end":2376.82,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":2378.18,"end":2379.58,"text":"好謝謝羅志祥委員"},{"start":2380.27,"end":2382.67,"text":"是不是請委員幫我們代理主席"},{"start":2382.87,"end":2384.67,"text":"好 徐以臻委員請說"},{"start":2395.81,"end":2397.81,"text":"主席 各位同仁"},{"start":2398.0099999999998,"end":2400.6099999999997,"text":"本席這次提出大學法第35條"},{"start":2400.81,"end":2403.0099999999998,"text":"修文 條文的修正草案"},{"start":2403.21,"end":2405.41,"text":"高級中等教育法第58條"},{"start":2405.6099999999997,"end":2409.21,"text":"以及專科學校法第44條的條文修正草案"},{"start":2409.41,"end":2412.21,"text":"三案其修 核心的目的只有一個"},{"start":2412.41,"end":2414.0099999999998,"text":"就是要透過本次的修法"},{"start":2414.21,"end":2416.6099999999997,"text":"實質減輕我國青年學子負擔"},{"start":2416.81,"end":2419.81,"text":"落實我國教育平權與青年發展"},{"start":2420.0099999999998,"end":2422.41,"text":"這次的提案有兩個主要的訴求"},{"start":2422.6099999999997,"end":2425.21,"text":"一是讓就讀大學生"},{"start":2425.41,"end":2427.41,"text":"高中職以及專科的學生"},{"start":2427.6099999999997,"end":2429.21,"text":"他們的就學貸款利息"},{"start":2429.41,"end":2432.41,"text":"應由政府編列預算全額補助"},{"start":2432.6099999999997,"end":2434.0099999999998,"text":"再來就是本金攤還"},{"start":2434.21,"end":2436.21,"text":"應資學生學業完成"},{"start":2436.41,"end":2440.21,"text":"服完兵役等滿兩年這次日期開始計算"},{"start":2440.41,"end":2441.6099999999997,"text":"就學貸款的制度"},{"start":2441.81,"end":2443.81,"text":"是為了協助學生接受教育"},{"start":2444.0099999999998,"end":2446.81,"text":"落實教育平權所制定的重要措施"},{"start":2447.0099999999998,"end":2450.6099999999997,"text":"它本來就是要讓所有部分出生的學子"},{"start":2450.61,"end":2452.81,"text":"都能夠公平的享有受教權"},{"start":2453.01,"end":2455.21,"text":"然而檢視現行的制度發現"},{"start":2455.4100000000003,"end":2457.4100000000003,"text":"對於正在就學中的學子"},{"start":2457.61,"end":2459.81,"text":"或者剛踏入社會的年輕人來說"},{"start":2460.01,"end":2461.81,"text":"就學貸款已經變成他們"},{"start":2462.01,"end":2464.4100000000003,"text":"一套社會的沉重負擔"},{"start":2464.61,"end":2466.4100000000003,"text":"因為一出上門"},{"start":2466.61,"end":2468.4100000000003,"text":"在還沒有在我們腳步之前"},{"start":2468.61,"end":2470.61,"text":"就要開始面對房租 伙食費"},{"start":2470.81,"end":2473.81,"text":"通勤費 水電費等排山倒海"},{"start":2474.01,"end":2475.21,"text":"而來的經濟壓力"},{"start":2475.4100000000003,"end":2477.4100000000003,"text":"而當前的年輕人在畢業後"},{"start":2477.61,"end":2480.01,"text":"面臨著極為沉重的生活成本"},{"start":2480.01,"end":2482.4100000000003,"text":"跟就業初期的低薪待遇的壓力"},{"start":2482.61,"end":2485.21,"text":"再加上近年來大環境的惡化"},{"start":2485.4100000000003,"end":2488.01,"text":"國內的物價持續的攀升"},{"start":2488.21,"end":2490.21,"text":"通膨的壓力不斷的增加"},{"start":2490.4100000000003,"end":2492.8100000000004,"text":"也讓我們的青青學子苦不堪言"},{"start":2493.01,"end":2495.01,"text":"看不到希望 看不到未來"},{"start":2495.21,"end":2497.8100000000004,"text":"而賴清德總統在上個月27號"},{"start":2498.01,"end":2499.61,"text":"有針對少子化的問題"},{"start":2499.8100000000004,"end":2501.8100000000004,"text":"召開國安高層會議"},{"start":2502.01,"end":2504.8100000000004,"text":"並發布臺灣人口對策新戰略"},{"start":2505.01,"end":2508.61,"text":"代表政府終於正視少子化問題"},{"start":2508.61,"end":2512.4100000000003,"text":"少子化問題是國家安全層級的危機"},{"start":2512.61,"end":2514.4100000000003,"text":"也知道學代其中"},{"start":2514.61,"end":2517.4100000000003,"text":"學代的壓力是其中一個來源"},{"start":2517.61,"end":2519.61,"text":"但是政府召開國安會議後"},{"start":2519.81,"end":2521.4100000000003,"text":"對於學代的減壓者是"},{"start":2521.61,"end":2524.01,"text":"利息減一趴 減嚴加一年"},{"start":2524.21,"end":2525.4100000000003,"text":"這部分我們認為是"},{"start":2525.61,"end":2528.4100000000003,"text":"杯水車薪遠遠不夠的"},{"start":2528.43,"end":2529.6299999999997,"text":"政府必須展現"},{"start":2529.83,"end":2531.6299999999997,"text":"破釜沉舟的決心"},{"start":2531.83,"end":2533.43,"text":"唯有實質的免除利息"},{"start":2533.6299999999997,"end":2534.6299999999997,"text":"延長寬限期"},{"start":2534.83,"end":2535.6299999999997,"text":"學代制度"},{"start":2535.83,"end":2538.83,"text":"才能真正的發揮教育品權的精神"},{"start":2539.0299999999997,"end":2541.23,"text":"希望今天大家一起來共同"},{"start":2541.43,"end":2544.0299999999997,"text":"支持這個修法的通過 謝謝"},{"start":2546.66,"end":2549.66,"text":"好 我們請羅庭薇委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2556.12,"end":2558.3199999999997,"text":"好 今天審查高級中等教育法"},{"start":2558.52,"end":2560.3199999999997,"text":"大學法 專科學校法"},{"start":2560.52,"end":2561.92,"text":"我們營養午餐法"},{"start":2562.12,"end":2563.52,"text":"還有最重要的就是"},{"start":2563.72,"end":2565.92,"text":"所有學生團體一直不斷在關心的"},{"start":2566.12,"end":2567.92,"text":"尤其是學代三法"},{"start":2568.12,"end":2569.92,"text":"我想我必須要跟大家說明"},{"start":2571.48,"end":2572.48,"text":"這個禮拜一啊"},{"start":2573.01,"end":2574.8100000000004,"text":"其實也有排考察"},{"start":2575.01,"end":2576.21,"text":"但不是我排的"},{"start":2576.4100000000003,"end":2578.61,"text":"我希望大家能夠將心比心"},{"start":2579.61,"end":2582.4100000000003,"text":"各個政黨在排期程的時候"},{"start":2583.34,"end":2585.34,"text":"都是雙套標準的話"},{"start":2585.54,"end":2586.54,"text":"我覺得這個不太好"},{"start":2587.19,"end":2589.39,"text":"那我想執政黨有自己的執政壓力"},{"start":2589.59,"end":2591.19,"text":"希望預算能夠趕快通過"},{"start":2591.76,"end":2593.5600000000004,"text":"在野黨有自己的期程"},{"start":2593.76,"end":2596.96,"text":"但執政黨只完成了自己"},{"start":2597.1600000000003,"end":2598.96,"text":"預算的審核之後"},{"start":2599.69,"end":2603.89,"text":"也沒有去幫忙處理相對應的民生問題"},{"start":2604.49,"end":2605.89,"text":"所以許多的學生團體"},{"start":2606.7999999999997,"end":2608.4,"text":"不斷的來拜訪拜託"},{"start":2608.6,"end":2609.4,"text":"學代的壓力"},{"start":2610.36,"end":2611.56,"text":"學生的困境"},{"start":2612.84,"end":2616.04,"text":"我們透過跟學生團體不斷的溝通"},{"start":2616.52,"end":2617.72,"text":"我們相信"},{"start":2618.02,"end":2621.22,"text":"現在整個七年生活的成本增加"},{"start":2622.07,"end":2625.27,"text":"我們希望幫忙能夠降低生活的負擔"},{"start":2626.47,"end":2628.6699999999996,"text":"這都是有可能影響到"},{"start":2629.55,"end":2630.75,"text":"日後"},{"start":2631.0099999999998,"end":2635.0099999999998,"text":"他們對於生活上遇到困難挑戰"},{"start":2635.21,"end":2637.0099999999998,"text":"甚至是未來成家立業"},{"start":2639.3599999999997,"end":2642.3599999999997,"text":"都有可能影響到整個生活的品質"},{"start":2642.56,"end":2645.3599999999997,"text":"導致後續可能沒有辦法"},{"start":2645.93,"end":2647.93,"text":"更好的進入職場"},{"start":2647.93,"end":2649.93,"text":"更好的進入家庭"},{"start":2650.72,"end":2651.9199999999996,"text":"也會影響到"},{"start":2652.78,"end":2653.98,"text":"我們的出生率"},{"start":2654.72,"end":2655.9199999999996,"text":"林當18歲"},{"start":2656.65,"end":2657.85,"text":"更於每個月"},{"start":2658.2999999999997,"end":2659.2999999999997,"text":"5000元"},{"start":2659.2999999999997,"end":2660.2999999999997,"text":"真的夠嗎"},{"start":2660.4399999999996,"end":2662.4399999999996,"text":"所以我們現在面對問題"},{"start":2662.4399999999996,"end":2663.4399999999996,"text":"解決問題"},{"start":2663.4399999999996,"end":2666.4399999999996,"text":"我也很感謝學生團體不斷的在拜訪"},{"start":2666.4399999999996,"end":2668.4399999999996,"text":"國民黨許多的委員"},{"start":2668.4399999999996,"end":2670.4399999999996,"text":"所以今天也有許多的委員"},{"start":2670.4399999999996,"end":2672.4399999999996,"text":"在很早之前就已經先提案"},{"start":2672.4399999999996,"end":2674.4399999999996,"text":"我們趕緊進入來排案"},{"start":2674.4399999999996,"end":2675.4399999999996,"text":"來做審查"},{"start":2675.4399999999996,"end":2678.4399999999996,"text":"來幫學生來解決問題"},{"start":2678.99,"end":2680.1899999999996,"text":"所以"},{"start":2680.1899999999996,"end":2681.1899999999996,"text":"我們希望明定"},{"start":2681.1899999999996,"end":2683.1899999999996,"text":"由主管機關"},{"start":2683.1899999999996,"end":2686.1899999999996,"text":"編列預算全額負擔就學貸款利息"},{"start":2686.1899999999996,"end":2690.1899999999996,"text":"並增訂經濟弱勢學生勉強學費之規定"},{"start":2690.5499999999997,"end":2691.5499999999997,"text":"甚至"},{"start":2691.5499999999997,"end":2692.5499999999997,"text":"同學也在反應"},{"start":2692.5499999999997,"end":2694.5499999999997,"text":"在申請學貸"},{"start":2694.5499999999997,"end":2696.5499999999997,"text":"還沒有下來"},{"start":2696.5499999999997,"end":2698.5499999999997,"text":"通過的這個過程當中"},{"start":2698.5499999999997,"end":2700.5499999999997,"text":"能不能給予幫助"},{"start":2701.2799999999997,"end":2702.2799999999997,"text":"能不能夠落實"},{"start":2702.2799999999997,"end":2704.2799999999997,"text":"整個學校"},{"start":2704.2799999999997,"end":2706.2799999999997,"text":"關心關懷的一個制度"},{"start":2706.81,"end":2708.81,"text":"這個都是我們現在要關心"},{"start":2708.81,"end":2709.81,"text":"我們要來努力的"},{"start":2709.81,"end":2710.81,"text":"所以也希望"},{"start":2710.81,"end":2712.81,"text":"大家能夠共同來"},{"start":2712.81,"end":2715.81,"text":"關注學生就業的壓力"},{"start":2717.14,"end":2718.14,"text":"之外"},{"start":2718.14,"end":2720.14,"text":"還有就學過程"},{"start":2720.14,"end":2722.14,"text":"所增加的這些成本"},{"start":2722.14,"end":2724.14,"text":"所以今天特別排審"},{"start":2724.14,"end":2726.14,"text":"希望大家一起來為"},{"start":2726.14,"end":2728.14,"text":"這些學生來努力"},{"start":2728.14,"end":2730.14,"text":"我想也要再一次的拜託"},{"start":2730.14,"end":2732.14,"text":"我們所有期程"},{"start":2732.14,"end":2734.14,"text":"排列都有自己的進度"},{"start":2734.14,"end":2736.14,"text":"我們尊重所有的委員的建議"},{"start":2736.14,"end":2738.14,"text":"但也希望委員"},{"start":2738.14,"end":2740.14,"text":"能夠給予我們支持"},{"start":2740.14,"end":2741.14,"text":"這次法案的排審"},{"start":2741.14,"end":2742.14,"text":"有其必要性"},{"start":2742.14,"end":2743.14,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2755.73,"end":2756.93,"text":"提案說明完畢"},{"start":2759.64,"end":2760.64,"text":"本會議才一併報告"},{"start":2760.64,"end":2761.64,"text":"綜合詢答"},{"start":2761.64,"end":2762.64,"text":"現在進行報告"},{"start":2762.64,"end":2765.64,"text":"請教育部朱俊彰次長報告"},{"start":2766.14,"end":2767.3399999999997,"text":"時間8分鐘"},{"start":2775.0299999999997,"end":2776.0299999999997,"text":"主席"},{"start":2776.0299999999997,"end":2777.0299999999997,"text":"各位委員"},{"start":2777.0299999999997,"end":2778.0299999999997,"text":"大家早"},{"start":2778.0299999999997,"end":2781.0299999999997,"text":"今日大院召開教育及文化委員會"},{"start":2781.0299999999997,"end":2783.0299999999997,"text":"審查高級中等教育法"},{"start":2783.0299999999997,"end":2784.0299999999997,"text":"第20條"},{"start":2784.0299999999997,"end":2786.0299999999997,"text":"第58條修正草案"},{"start":2786.0299999999997,"end":2788.0299999999997,"text":"大學法第35條修正草案"},{"start":2788.0299999999997,"end":2791.0299999999997,"text":"專科學校法第44條修正草案"},{"start":2791.0299999999997,"end":2793.0299999999997,"text":"今日的應邀"},{"start":2793.0299999999997,"end":2796.0299999999997,"text":"列席領聽委員寶貴的意見"},{"start":2796.0299999999997,"end":2797.0299999999997,"text":"盛感榮幸"},{"start":2797.0299999999997,"end":2798.0299999999997,"text":"以下緊就本部"},{"start":2798.0299999999997,"end":2800.0299999999997,"text":"對於各項修正草案的整體回應"},{"start":2800.0299999999997,"end":2801.0299999999997,"text":"提出報告"},{"start":2801.0299999999997,"end":2803.0299999999997,"text":"進行各位委員指教"},{"start":2803.0299999999997,"end":2804.0299999999997,"text":"有關委員提案"},{"start":2804.23,"end":2807.23,"text":"高級中等教育法第20條修法內容"},{"start":2807.23,"end":2808.23,"text":"主要涉及到"},{"start":2808.23,"end":2811.23,"text":"高級中等學校輔導主任的任用資格"},{"start":2811.23,"end":2812.23,"text":"在現行的規定"},{"start":2812.23,"end":2814.23,"text":"是考量學生的輔導工作"},{"start":2814.23,"end":2815.23,"text":"具有高度的專業性"},{"start":2815.23,"end":2817.23,"text":"因此明令輔導主任"},{"start":2817.23,"end":2820.23,"text":"由專任的輔導教師來擔任"},{"start":2820.23,"end":2822.23,"text":"以維持學生的受輔的品質"},{"start":2822.23,"end":2825.23,"text":"及專業領導的功能"},{"start":2825.8199999999997,"end":2827.8199999999997,"text":"在學生輔導工作"},{"start":2827.8199999999997,"end":2828.8199999999997,"text":"具有高度的專業性"},{"start":2828.8199999999997,"end":2830.8199999999997,"text":"涉及到心理的輔導維基處理"},{"start":2830.8199999999997,"end":2833.8199999999997,"text":"及特殊學生的一個支持"},{"start":2833.8199999999997,"end":2835.8199999999997,"text":"因此維持具有輔導專業背景的"},{"start":2835.8199999999997,"end":2838.8199999999997,"text":"專任輔導教師來擔任主任"},{"start":2838.8199999999997,"end":2842.8199999999997,"text":"確實有助於確保整個輔導品質"},{"start":2842.8199999999997,"end":2843.8199999999997,"text":"及專業的領導"},{"start":2843.8199999999997,"end":2847.8199999999997,"text":"在113年修正的學生輔導法"},{"start":2847.8199999999997,"end":2849.8199999999997,"text":"雖然規定學校的輔導主管"},{"start":2849.8199999999997,"end":2853.8199999999997,"text":"已由具輔導專業專長者"},{"start":2853.8199999999997,"end":2854.8199999999997,"text":"優先來任用"},{"start":2855.02,"end":2857.02,"text":"但立法背景主要是因應"},{"start":2857.02,"end":2860.02,"text":"國民中小學制度的特性"},{"start":2860.02,"end":2863.02,"text":"與高級中等教育法強調的"},{"start":2863.02,"end":2866.02,"text":"輔導專業的立法精神並無不同"},{"start":2866.98,"end":2868.18,"text":"第三 蔡..."},{"start":2869.22,"end":2871.22,"text":"教育部我們請以邀請"},{"start":2871.22,"end":2874.22,"text":"地方政府及各級學校的代表"},{"start":2874.22,"end":2875.22,"text":"進行研商"},{"start":2875.22,"end":2877.22,"text":"多數的一位代表"},{"start":2877.22,"end":2879.22,"text":"認為高級中等學校輔導主任"},{"start":2879.22,"end":2881.22,"text":"能以由專業輔導教師來兼任"},{"start":2881.22,"end":2885.22,"text":"以維持輔導工作的專業品質"},{"start":2885.22,"end":2886.22,"text":"是"},{"start":2886.49,"end":2888.49,"text":"考量部分學校可能面臨"},{"start":2888.49,"end":2890.49,"text":"能源配置的困難問題"},{"start":2890.49,"end":2892.49,"text":"本部將持續收集各界的意見"},{"start":2892.49,"end":2894.49,"text":"並研議相關的配套措施"},{"start":2894.49,"end":2898.49,"text":"來兼顧學生的輔導品質"},{"start":2898.49,"end":2900.49,"text":"以及學校的食物需求"},{"start":2900.49,"end":2902.49,"text":"二 關於委員提案"},{"start":2902.49,"end":2904.49,"text":"高級中等教育法58條"},{"start":2904.49,"end":2905.49,"text":"大學法35條"},{"start":2905.49,"end":2907.49,"text":"專業學校法44條的修正內容"},{"start":2907.49,"end":2910.49,"text":"主要是涉及到學生就學學費"},{"start":2910.49,"end":2912.49,"text":"以及就學貸款等議題"},{"start":2912.6899999999996,"end":2916.6899999999996,"text":"在現行各項的多元的"},{"start":2916.6899999999996,"end":2918.6899999999996,"text":"助學措施的推動下"},{"start":2918.6899999999996,"end":2920.6899999999996,"text":"學生已經可以在"},{"start":2920.6899999999996,"end":2922.6899999999996,"text":"不同的教育階段獲得協助跟支持"},{"start":2922.6899999999996,"end":2924.6899999999996,"text":"在高級中等教育階段"},{"start":2924.6899999999996,"end":2928.6899999999996,"text":"從112學年度第二學期開始"},{"start":2928.6899999999996,"end":2930.6899999999996,"text":"已經實施了高中子免學費"},{"start":2930.6899999999996,"end":2932.6899999999996,"text":"在大專校園階段"},{"start":2932.6899999999996,"end":2934.6899999999996,"text":"這已經透過各類的學雜費減免"},{"start":2934.6899999999996,"end":2937.6899999999996,"text":"拉近公司立學校的學費差距"},{"start":2937.6899999999996,"end":2939.6899999999996,"text":"及配套措施方案"},{"start":2939.6899999999996,"end":2941.6899999999996,"text":"大專校園若是學生"},{"start":2941.89,"end":2943.89,"text":"就學計畫等等措施"},{"start":2943.89,"end":2945.89,"text":"精準投放照顧約"},{"start":2945.89,"end":2947.89,"text":"52%的學生"},{"start":2949.8199999999997,"end":2954.8199999999997,"text":"同時也讓不同的學生獲得學費減免"},{"start":2954.8199999999997,"end":2957.8199999999997,"text":"跟學習生活的一個支援"},{"start":2957.8199999999997,"end":2959.8199999999997,"text":"在現行的機制"},{"start":2959.8199999999997,"end":2962.8199999999997,"text":"可以學習應應學生需求"},{"start":2962.8199999999997,"end":2964.8199999999997,"text":"做調整的情況之下"},{"start":2964.8199999999997,"end":2966.8199999999997,"text":"精準投放支援來協助"},{"start":2966.8199999999997,"end":2968.8199999999997,"text":"需要幫助跟突發"},{"start":2968.8199999999997,"end":2970.8199999999997,"text":"被雇的學生"},{"start":2970.8199999999997,"end":2973.8199999999997,"text":"協助他們籌碼學位上的困難"},{"start":2973.8199999999997,"end":2976.8199999999997,"text":"我想這部分在現行的機制"},{"start":2976.8199999999997,"end":2978.8199999999997,"text":"跟就學貸款都可以來協助"},{"start":2979.02,"end":2981.02,"text":"那就委員的提案"},{"start":2981.02,"end":2983.02,"text":"我們也做了以下的說明"},{"start":2983.02,"end":2985.02,"text":"1.現行的助學措施"},{"start":2985.02,"end":2987.02,"text":"已經有相關的執法跟計畫作為參據"},{"start":2987.02,"end":2989.02,"text":"可以來因應政策跟經濟情況"},{"start":2989.02,"end":2991.02,"text":"做滾動的修正"},{"start":2991.02,"end":2995.02,"text":"本部將持續的推動各項助學措施"},{"start":2995.02,"end":2997.02,"text":"就各項的措施"},{"start":2997.02,"end":2999.02,"text":"實施的狀況"},{"start":2999.02,"end":3001.02,"text":"及學生的實際需求"},{"start":3001.02,"end":3003.02,"text":"滾動來修正法規命令、行政規則"},{"start":3003.02,"end":3005.02,"text":"及相關的助學計畫跟方案"},{"start":3005.02,"end":3007.02,"text":"來及時彈性回應"},{"start":3007.02,"end":3009.22,"text":"以及照顧學生"},{"start":3009.22,"end":3010.22,"text":"對於委員提出來"},{"start":3010.22,"end":3012.22,"text":"家庭所的進而適用稅率"},{"start":3012.22,"end":3016.22,"text":"12%以內免納學雜費"},{"start":3016.22,"end":3018.22,"text":"家庭所的5等份"},{"start":3018.22,"end":3020.22,"text":"最低20%的免納學費"},{"start":3020.22,"end":3022.22,"text":"增訂拉進方案"},{"start":3022.22,"end":3024.22,"text":"助學退套入法"},{"start":3024.22,"end":3026.22,"text":"補助額度定期檢討"},{"start":3026.22,"end":3028.22,"text":"不得低於前一年"},{"start":3028.22,"end":3030.22,"text":"就學貸款的生態資格"},{"start":3030.22,"end":3032.22,"text":"放寬至150萬"},{"start":3032.22,"end":3034.22,"text":"由教育部全額負擔利息"},{"start":3034.22,"end":3036.22,"text":"由主管機關負擔利息"},{"start":3036.22,"end":3038.22,"text":"寬限期放寬至2年"},{"start":3038.22,"end":3040.22,"text":"同樣的修法內容"},{"start":3040.22,"end":3042.22,"text":"以本部現行推動各項助學措施"},{"start":3042.22,"end":3044.22,"text":"以優先協助經濟相對弱勢的學生"},{"start":3044.22,"end":3046.22,"text":"逐步擴大照顧對象的橫概範圍"},{"start":3046.22,"end":3048.22,"text":"是一致的"},{"start":3048.22,"end":3050.22,"text":"現行的授權執法"},{"start":3050.22,"end":3052.22,"text":"跟相關的授權計畫"},{"start":3052.22,"end":3054.22,"text":"已經可以拉入來推動"},{"start":3054.22,"end":3056.22,"text":"在今年5月27日"},{"start":3056.22,"end":3058.22,"text":"總統也宣布了"},{"start":3058.22,"end":3060.22,"text":"就代的改革"},{"start":3060.22,"end":3062.22,"text":"其中針對於"},{"start":3062.22,"end":3064.22,"text":"在學期間的學生"},{"start":3064.22,"end":3066.22,"text":"全面免利息"},{"start":3066.22,"end":3068.22,"text":"畢業後的寬限期"},{"start":3068.22,"end":3070.22,"text":"由一年延長為兩年"},{"start":3070.22,"end":3072.22,"text":"畢業還款時的"},{"start":3072.22,"end":3074.22,"text":"貸款利息能夠再調降1%"},{"start":3074.22,"end":3076.22,"text":"這些都是已經在現行的"},{"start":3076.22,"end":3078.22,"text":"就學貸款辦法以及作為細則"},{"start":3078.22,"end":3080.22,"text":"就可以來處理"},{"start":3080.22,"end":3082.22,"text":"第三委員建議"},{"start":3082.22,"end":3084.22,"text":"希望能夠針對電腦及"},{"start":3084.22,"end":3086.22,"text":"網路通訊使用費"},{"start":3086.22,"end":3088.22,"text":"等等貸款項目"},{"start":3088.22,"end":3090.22,"text":"以及增訂政府"},{"start":3090.22,"end":3092.22,"text":"應依學生家庭所得"},{"start":3092.22,"end":3094.22,"text":"或其他突發的經濟不利的情形"},{"start":3094.22,"end":3096.22,"text":"提供經濟不利處境的學生助學措施"},{"start":30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等一下"},{"start":3233.72,"end":3237.72,"text":"好謝謝我想請問兩位或在場所有教育部的相關官員"},{"start":3237.72,"end":3239.72,"text":"最近很夯的一部韓劇鐵拳教育"},{"start":3239.72,"end":3241.72,"text":"看過的人請舉手一下"},{"start":3243.17,"end":3245.17,"text":"這麼少啊就只有彭署長"},{"start":3245.17,"end":3247.17,"text":"那你們教育部真的太不接地氣了"},{"start":3247.17,"end":3249.17,"text":"為什麼這部戲這麼樣子的夯"},{"start":3249.17,"end":3251.17,"text":"因為它雖然是韓國也是"},{"start":3251.17,"end":3253.17,"text":"戲劇非常漫畫式的"},{"start":3253.17,"end":3255.17,"text":"可是它說出了非常多"},{"start":3255.17,"end":3257.17,"text":"目前校園老師的一個心聲"},{"start":3257.17,"end":3259.17,"text":"很多人看完之後呢就覺得"},{"start":3259.17,"end":3261.17,"text":"淒涼難過"},{"start":3261.17,"end":3263.17,"text":"但是又很爽"},{"start":3263.17,"end":3265.17,"text":"原因就是他們是多麼希望在這麼"},{"start":3265.17,"end":3267.17,"text":"惡劣的環境當中當家"},{"start":3267.17,"end":3269.17,"text":"自己壓抑這麼多那是一種心情的投射"},{"start":3269.17,"end":3271.17,"text":"希望有很多人能夠幫"},{"start":3271.17,"end":3273.17,"text":"他們來紓解來解決"},{"start":3273.17,"end":3275.17,"text":"所以我覺得教育部的官員應該"},{"start":3275.17,"end":3277.17,"text":"不要把它當作只是一部劇"},{"start":3277.17,"end":3279.17,"text":"它反映了非常多的現實的一個"},{"start":3279.17,"end":3281.17,"text":"人生啊然後呢特別是"},{"start":3281.17,"end":3283.17,"text":"我們在5月25號的時候我們高雄"},{"start":3283.17,"end":3285.17,"text":"發生了一件非常不幸的事件就是"},{"start":3285.17,"end":3287.17,"text":"有老師來墜樓"},{"start":3287.17,"end":3289.17,"text":"而這個部分你們都完全顯示出"},{"start":3289.17,"end":3291.17,"text":"他們目前所處的環境是相當"},{"start":3291.17,"end":3293.17,"text":"不友善的那我想請問一下"},{"start":3293.17,"end":3295.17,"text":"有關於老師的墜樓這件事情"},{"start":3295.17,"end":3297.17,"text":"當中教育部內部有沒有"},{"start":3297.17,"end":3299.17,"text":"因為這件事情引發"},{"start":3299.17,"end":3301.17,"text":"上市會議純費的問題有沒有進行討論"},{"start":3303.06,"end":3305.06,"text":"次長或是署長"},{"start":3305.24,"end":3307.24,"text":"根本報告針對"},{"start":3307.24,"end":3309.24,"text":"校事會議的調整在去年"},{"start":3309.24,"end":3311.24,"text":"再不啟動一相關的"},{"start":3311.24,"end":3313.24,"text":"討論之後在近年1月"},{"start":3313.24,"end":3315.24,"text":"已經修正了我們我們都看到"},{"start":3315.24,"end":3317.24,"text":"但是這個修正很顯然對於"},{"start":3317.24,"end":3319.24,"text":"校園老師的壓力跟友善"},{"start":3319.24,"end":3321.24,"text":"完全無解"},{"start":3321.24,"end":3323.24,"text":"而且呢我說實在的從"},{"start":3323.24,"end":3325.24,"text":"墜樓校事會議我真的"},{"start":3325.24,"end":3327.24,"text":"覺得教育部應該有更積極的做法"},{"start":3327.24,"end":3329.24,"text":"連部長都應該是寫"},{"start":3329.24,"end":3331.24,"text":"舉例來說在你的"},{"start":3331.24,"end":3333.24,"text":"網站上寫一個告全國"},{"start":3333.24,"end":3335.24,"text":"老師的信件來撫慰他們這些"},{"start":3335.24,"end":3337.24,"text":"老師的一個心情結果竟然"},{"start":3337.24,"end":3339.24,"text":"都沒有而且最重要的是呢你們"},{"start":3339.24,"end":3341.24,"text":"不但網站沒有教育部臉書"},{"start":3341.24,"end":3343.24,"text":"老師5月25號墜樓5"},{"start":3343.24,"end":3345.24,"text":"月28號你們墜樓的"},{"start":3345.24,"end":3347.24,"text":"三天你們連發兩篇一篇是台"},{"start":3347.24,"end":3349.24,"text":"美MOU行政記者會一個是"},{"start":3349.24,"end":3351.24,"text":"0到18歲家庭支持"},{"start":3351.24,"end":3353.24,"text":"然後呢留言很多"},{"start":3353.24,"end":3355.24,"text":"如果有人小編上去看的話"},{"start":3355.24,"end":3357.24,"text":"你會看到很多人就去請長官"},{"start":3357.24,"end":3359.24,"text":"看看現在校園體系到底崩壞"},{"start":3359.24,"end":3361.24,"text":"成什麼樣子老師被"},{"start":3361.24,"end":3363.24,"text":"歧視被濫訴你們"},{"start":3363.24,"end":3365.24,"text":"怎麼樣這些東西都是出現在"},{"start":3365.24,"end":3367.24,"text":"你們教育部的網站你們就"},{"start":3367.24,"end":3369.24,"text":"應該知道如果是你們語情調查"},{"start":3369.24,"end":3371.24,"text":"你們就應該知道現在大家"},{"start":3371.24,"end":3373.24,"text":"所關切的事情是什麼就"},{"start":3373.24,"end":3375.24,"text":"應該做成回應啊而不是來自"},{"start":3375.24,"end":3377.24,"text":"一些完全沒有的一些"},{"start":3377.24,"end":3379.24,"text":"一些所謂行政的一個宣導"},{"start":3379.24,"end":3381.24,"text":"而且呢我在針對這件事情之後"},{"start":3381.24,"end":3383.24,"text":"呢就提出了幾項的建議"},{"start":3383.24,"end":3385.24,"text":"給教育部三個月的時間"},{"start":3385.24,"end":3387.24,"text":"這有很困難嗎我再說"},{"start":3387.24,"end":3389.24,"text":"一次第一個呢我們就是"},{"start":3389.24,"end":3391.24,"text":"完全希望能夠定一個全國一致的"},{"start":3391.24,"end":3393.24,"text":"老師身心健康"},{"start":3393.24,"end":3395.24,"text":"權益的保障因為每個縣市"},{"start":3395.24,"end":3397.24,"text":"裡面他們的一些所謂的經費"},{"start":3397.24,"end":3399.24,"text":"不一樣有些人有千萬但是"},{"start":3399.24,"end":3401.24,"text":"呢還是很多老師還是排不上"},{"start":3401.24,"end":3403.24,"text":"有些人是非常的拮据"},{"start":3403.24,"end":3405.24,"text":"所以我們希望教育部能夠為了老師的"},{"start":3405.24,"end":3407.24,"text":"身心能夠研製一個統一"},{"start":3407.24,"end":3409.24,"text":"的標準第二個我們希望他"},{"start":3409.24,"end":3411.24,"text":"能夠防範惡意的一個騷擾"},{"start":3411.24,"end":3413.24,"text":"目前來說很多的霸凌"},{"start":3413.24,"end":3415.24,"text":"的防治都聚焦在"},{"start":3415.24,"end":3417.24,"text":"師對生的反範"},{"start":3417.24,"end":3419.24,"text":"但是缺乏生對師"},{"start":3419.24,"end":3421.24,"text":"或是家長對師的這個"},{"start":3421.24,"end":3423.24,"text":"惡意的騷擾所以說呢根據韓國"},{"start":3423.24,"end":3425.24,"text":"的一些經驗您看明確"},{"start":3425.24,"end":3427.24,"text":"的規範受益的部分包括"},{"start":3427.24,"end":3429.24,"text":"羞辱威脅惡意攻擊的標準的"},{"start":3429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3625.23,"end":3627.23,"text":"可是目前國中"},{"start":3627.23,"end":3629.23,"text":"的很多的老師的輔導主任"},{"start":3629.23,"end":3631.23,"text":"他有這樣的證照他也具有熱誠"},{"start":3631.23,"end":3633.23,"text":"而且根據我們現在國民"},{"start":3633.23,"end":3635.23,"text":"教育法第二十一條三項的規定"},{"start":3635.23,"end":3637.23,"text":"或者甚至我們新修"},{"start":3637.23,"end":3639.23,"text":"學生輔導法的規定都"},{"start":3639.23,"end":3641.23,"text":"告訴大家只要具有"},{"start":3641.23,"end":3643.23,"text":"這樣子的輔導的這個行政"},{"start":3643.23,"end":3645.23,"text":"的專業性都可以我現在"},{"start":3645.23,"end":3647.23,"text":"專職完全中學"},{"start":3647.23,"end":3649.23,"text":"你不要拿一般的中學來跟我"},{"start":3649.23,"end":3651.23,"text":"討論這個狀況我們只希望在"},{"start":3651.23,"end":3653.23,"text":"完全中學當中給現有"},{"start":3653.23,"end":3655.23,"text":"的國中的輔導主任他在"},{"start":3655.23,"end":3657.23,"text":"處理的時候能夠保有他行政"},{"start":3657.23,"end":3659.23,"text":"上面的這樣子的彈性"},{"start":3659.23,"end":3661.23,"text":"所以不要拿一般東西來你們"},{"start":3661.23,"end":3663.23,"text":"真的在這件事上有真的問過完全"},{"start":3663.23,"end":3665.23,"text":"中學這些輔導主任的看法嗎"},{"start":3665.23,"end":3667.23,"text":"有嗎你們找了這麼多人"},{"start":3668.52,"end":3670.52,"text":"如果我在地方看了這麼多"},{"start":3670.52,"end":3672.52,"text":"你有找過完全中學這些老師的看法嗎"},{"start":3672.52,"end":3674.52,"text":"是是跟委員回報兩點"},{"start":3674.52,"end":3676.52,"text":"剛剛提到這一點以及前面那個"},{"start":3676.52,"end":3678.52,"text":"教師會議或教師輔導管教"},{"start":3678.52,"end":3680.52,"text":"首先後面這一點的話"},{"start":3680.52,"end":3682.52,"text":"那我們會根據委員最近的"},{"start":3682.52,"end":3684.52,"text":"提案我們要考量"},{"start":3684.52,"end":3686.52,"text":"完全中學的特性邀請會議的時候"},{"start":3686.52,"end":3688.52,"text":"也是有邀請但是能不能更全面"},{"start":3688.52,"end":3690.52,"text":"會照委員的意思再邀"},{"start":3690.52,"end":3692.52,"text":"今天如果修法在"},{"start":3692.52,"end":3694.52,"text":"實質討論上是不是給我們有"},{"start":3694.52,"end":3696.52,"text":"剛剛有提到有比較完整"},{"start":3696.52,"end":3698.52,"text":"的背道措施因為畢竟"},{"start":3698.52,"end":3700.52,"text":"希望能夠專業來領導"},{"start":3700.52,"end":3702.52,"text":"專業這件事我完全無意"},{"start":3702.52,"end":3704.52,"text":"但是我現在討論的是現實的問題"},{"start":3704.52,"end":3706.52,"text":"現在的問題就是完全"},{"start":3706.52,"end":3708.52,"text":"中學不要拿那個一般的"},{"start":3708.52,"end":3710.52,"text":"一般的法條沒有問題"},{"start":3710.52,"end":3712.52,"text":"完全中學老師就面臨了一個人"},{"start":3712.52,"end":3714.52,"text":"身兼高中跟國中"},{"start":3714.52,"end":3716.52,"text":"那國中老師因為你們像這個法"},{"start":3716.52,"end":3718.52,"text":"過去之後破壞他"},{"start":3718.52,"end":3720.52,"text":"過去長期以來可以當"},{"start":3720.52,"end":3722.52,"text":"輔導主任在專業上的確"},{"start":3722.52,"end":3724.52,"text":"有他的需要以及在"},{"start":3724.52,"end":3726.52,"text":"服務運作上有委員考慮的"},{"start":3726.52,"end":3728.52,"text":"這個就是我們來一起在研議"},{"start":3728.52,"end":3730.52,"text":"下午的專案討論的時候"},{"start":3730.52,"end":3732.52,"text":"法條上我們會詳細跟委員"},{"start":3732.52,"end":3734.52,"text":"報告第二點是回到剛剛"},{"start":3734.52,"end":3736.52,"text":"校事會議這邊"},{"start":3736.52,"end":3738.52,"text":"在1月12號修法之後有一個"},{"start":3738.52,"end":3740.52,"text":"非常重要的精神一個是"},{"start":3740.52,"end":3742.52,"text":"分流一個是減少"},{"start":3742.52,"end":3744.52,"text":"匿名這個委員都知道那所以"},{"start":3744.52,"end":3746.52,"text":"減量的非常大但這個不足夠"},{"start":3746.52,"end":3748.52,"text":"因此委員剛剛直指問題是老師"},{"start":3748.52,"end":3750.52,"text":"的管教權管教權的部分涉及到"},{"start":3750.52,"end":3752.52,"text":"學校電電輔導管教"},{"start":3752.52,"end":3754.52,"text":"管教權的部分的"},{"start":3754.52,"end":3756.52,"text":"有辦法的注意事項這個由教育部"},{"start":3756.52,"end":3758.52,"text":"學特斯跟國教署一起來定"},{"start":3758.52,"end":3760.52,"text":"我們會在一個月內就其中的"},{"start":3760.52,"end":3762.52,"text":"第23條24條"},{"start":3762.52,"end":3764.52,"text":"所以我現在強調"},{"start":3764.52,"end":3766.52,"text":"剛剛又發生這麼多的事件我還是"},{"start":3766.52,"end":3768.52,"text":"強調你們1月所提出來的部分"},{"start":3768.52,"end":3770.52,"text":"還是沒有辦法降低目前"},{"start":3770.52,"end":3772.52,"text":"來說校園裡面對老師的不友善跟"},{"start":3772.52,"end":3774.52,"text":"壓力所以才會有這麼多校園"},{"start":3774.52,"end":3776.52,"text":"老師的事件發生所以我才從"},{"start":3776.52,"end":3778.52,"text":"目前來說老師的情緒"},{"start":3778.52,"end":3780.52,"text":"老師的投射在一個"},{"start":3780.52,"end":3782.52,"text":"劇本單中裡面有這麼多的"},{"start":3782.52,"end":3784.52,"text":"怨氣所以呢你們剛剛說1月"},{"start":3784.52,"end":3786.52,"text":"開始這樣到7月有6個月"},{"start":3786.52,"end":3788.52,"text":"的時間能夠提出更"},{"start":3788.52,"end":3790.52,"text":"完善根據目前所"},{"start":3790.52,"end":3792.52,"text":"校園裡面老師的"},{"start":3792.52,"end":3794.52,"text":"這樣一個不友善能夠提出來我"},{"start":3794.52,"end":3796.52,"text":"等著然後我剛剛所提出的那5大項"},{"start":3796.52,"end":3798.52,"text":"3個月之內組長很顯然"},{"start":3798.52,"end":3800.52,"text":"是不需要到3個月更快的時間"},{"start":3800.52,"end":3802.52,"text":"對我們每一項所提出"},{"start":3802.52,"end":3804.52,"text":"這都是老師的心聲能夠"},{"start":3804.52,"end":3806.52,"text":"給我們的積極跟非常具體的"},{"start":3806.52,"end":3808.52,"text":"一個做法可以嗎"},{"start":3808.52,"end":3810.52,"text":"好沒問題"},{"start":3812.11,"end":3814.11,"text":"好謝謝委員謝謝市長"},{"start":3815.15,"end":3817.15,"text":"好有關於"},{"start":3817.15,"end":3819.15,"text":"校事會議還有校園霸凌"},{"start":3819.15,"end":3821.15,"text":"大家都非常關切所以"},{"start":3821.15,"end":3823.15,"text":"也感謝委員引出"},{"start":3823.15,"end":3825.15,"text":"我們鐵拳教育"},{"start":3825.15,"end":3827.15,"text":"為什麼會讓大家這麼關注"},{"start":3827.15,"end":3829.15,"text":"下禮拜一我們會舉辦"},{"start":3829.15,"end":3831.15,"text":"相關的公聽會來檢討"},{"start":3831.15,"end":3833.15,"text":"校事會議"},{"start":3833.15,"end":3835.15,"text":"那也希望讓最"},{"start":3835.15,"end":3837.15,"text":"第一線老師來到委員會"},{"start":3837.15,"end":3839.15,"text":"來發聲下禮拜一"},{"start":3839.15,"end":3841.15,"text":"也歡迎所有的委員能夠"},{"start":3841.15,"end":3843.15,"text":"一起來為現場"},{"start":3843.15,"end":3845.15,"text":"校園狀況來發聲"},{"start":3845.15,"end":3847.15,"text":"感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":3847.84,"end":3849.84,"text":"下一位"},{"start":3849.08,"end":3851.08,"text":"陳佩儀委員謝謝"},{"start":3854.66,"end":3856.66,"text":"好謝謝主席有請市長"},{"start":3857.16,"end":3859.16,"text":"有請市長"},{"start":3860.89,"end":3862.89,"text":"好早安"},{"start":3862.89,"end":3864.89,"text":"因著剛剛克志恩委員的質詢"},{"start":3864.89,"end":3866.89,"text":"我就先直接往下說但是"},{"start":3866.89,"end":3868.89,"text":"我想要先提醒大家一件事情"},{"start":3868.89,"end":3870.89,"text":"制度之所以會改革其實確實"},{"start":3870.89,"end":3872.89,"text":"是因為在現場發生了一些事情"},{"start":3872.89,"end":3874.89,"text":"不知道大家還記不記得豐原高中案"},{"start":3874.89,"end":3876.89,"text":"是因為豐原高中案"},{"start":3876.89,"end":3878.89,"text":"所以我們促成了三聘辦法的"},{"start":3878.89,"end":3880.89,"text":"修訂也促成了校園霸凌"},{"start":3880.89,"end":3882.89,"text":"防治準則的修訂當然也"},{"start":3882.89,"end":3884.89,"text":"促成了校事會議這件事情"},{"start":3884.89,"end":3886.89,"text":"可是為了預防再一次"},{"start":3886.89,"end":3888.89,"text":"發生學生墜樓的悲劇"},{"start":3888.89,"end":3890.89,"text":"現在我們看見是更多老師"},{"start":3890.89,"end":3892.89,"text":"校園的悲劇但我要說的是"},{"start":3892.89,"end":3894.89,"text":"在校園裡面不會"},{"start":3894.89,"end":3896.89,"text":"只有學生也不會只有老師"},{"start":3896.89,"end":3898.89,"text":"他還有行政機關"},{"start":3898.89,"end":3900.89,"text":"行政主管甚至大家不要忘記"},{"start":3900.89,"end":3902.89,"text":"學生背後有家長所以當有"},{"start":3902.89,"end":3904.89,"text":"家長的聲音老師的聲音"},{"start":3904.89,"end":3906.89,"text":"學生的聲音還有所有行政的"},{"start":3906.89,"end":3908.89,"text":"聲音是在校園裡面大家"},{"start":3908.89,"end":3910.89,"text":"是共同在承擔這個"},{"start":3910.89,"end":3912.89,"text":"壓力的時候我們就必須要"},{"start":3912.89,"end":3914.89,"text":"積極的提出一個我們辦公室"},{"start":3914.89,"end":3916.89,"text":"一直在跟教育部溝通的事情"},{"start":3916.89,"end":3918.89,"text":"但是我想先來下一張"},{"start":3918.89,"end":3920.89,"text":"我想要先拜託教育部看到一件事情"},{"start":3920.89,"end":3922.89,"text":"來下一張"},{"start":3922.41,"end":3924.41,"text":"目前我們看到不管是全教產"},{"start":3924.41,"end":3926.41,"text":"或是全教總"},{"start":3926.41,"end":3928.41,"text":"或者是代理代課老師的"},{"start":3928.41,"end":3930.41,"text":"工會他們都已經正式的"},{"start":3930.41,"end":3932.41,"text":"發出聲明對於老師們"},{"start":3932.41,"end":3934.41,"text":"在學校所感受到的壓力"},{"start":3934.41,"end":3936.41,"text":"也就是剛剛很多委員"},{"start":3936.41,"end":3938.41,"text":"或者是等一下很多委員會要關心的"},{"start":3938.41,"end":3940.41,"text":"我不知道教育部怎麼看待"},{"start":3940.41,"end":3942.41,"text":"這三個團體對於教育部"},{"start":3942.41,"end":3944.41,"text":"提出的沉重呼籲甚至是"},{"start":3944.41,"end":3946.41,"text":"怒吼但我想你們應該"},{"start":3946.41,"end":3948.41,"text":"都有收起相關資料我就不再贅述"},{"start":3948.41,"end":3950.41,"text":"可是我要講的是"},{"start":3950.41,"end":3952.41,"text":"我們看到這些聲音的時候"},{"start":3952.41,"end":3954.41,"text":"不要忘記背後還有家長的聲音"},{"start":3954.41,"end":3956.41,"text":"還有學生的聲音還有行政主管的聲音"},{"start":3956.41,"end":3958.41,"text":"甚至校事會議裡面會有"},{"start":3958.41,"end":3960.41,"text":"所謂調查專家的聲音"},{"start":3960.41,"end":3962.41,"text":"所以如果要把這麼多人的聲音都"},{"start":3962.41,"end":3964.41,"text":"放進考量裡頭我們到底"},{"start":3964.41,"end":3966.41,"text":"有哪些可能可以做我想要"},{"start":3966.41,"end":3968.41,"text":"試試看跟教育部談以下的解方"},{"start":3968.41,"end":3970.41,"text":"來我們做了四件事情"},{"start":3970.41,"end":3972.41,"text":"的努力第一個我們希望"},{"start":3972.41,"end":3974.41,"text":"持續跟教育部溝通"},{"start":3974.41,"end":3976.41,"text":"家庭教育這件事情"},{"start":3976.41,"end":3978.41,"text":"接下來我們試著想要嘗試提出"},{"start":3978.41,"end":3980.41,"text":"第三方專責機構"},{"start":3980.41,"end":3982.41,"text":"第三個就是關於教師的"},{"start":3982.41,"end":3984.41,"text":"職業安全指引第四個"},{"start":3984.41,"end":3986.41,"text":"就是教師的理線權"},{"start":3986.41,"end":3988.41,"text":"第一個所謂家庭教育這件事情"},{"start":3988.41,"end":3990.41,"text":"我相信教育部一定非常的清楚"},{"start":3990.41,"end":3992.41,"text":"其實相關的預算在新版才化法通過"},{"start":3992.41,"end":3994.41,"text":"之後放在教育部本部"},{"start":3994.41,"end":3996.41,"text":"終身教育司的家庭教育預算"},{"start":3996.41,"end":3998.41,"text":"其實逐年下滑"},{"start":3998.41,"end":4000.41,"text":"但是家長對於家庭教育的"},{"start":4000.41,"end":4002.41,"text":"需求卻逐年上升"},{"start":4002.41,"end":4004.41,"text":"很多家長不知道如何"},{"start":4004.41,"end":4006.41,"text":"面對數位原生世代的孩子"},{"start":4006.41,"end":4008.41,"text":"很多家長也不知道如何去理解"},{"start":4008.41,"end":4010.41,"text":"孩子們在學校的狀況"},{"start":4010.41,"end":4012.41,"text":"因此把很多對於孩子的期待"},{"start":4012.41,"end":4014.41,"text":"錯誤的投射到老師身上"},{"start":4014.41,"end":4016.41,"text":"就導致於他變成給老師的壓力"},{"start":4016.41,"end":4018.41,"text":"可是如果回到家庭教育"},{"start":4018.41,"end":4020.41,"text":"這件事情我認為"},{"start":4020.41,"end":4022.41,"text":"我們教育部還有非常多事情可以做"},{"start":4022.41,"end":4024.41,"text":"包含應該精準的投入資源"},{"start":4024.41,"end":4026.41,"text":"還有擴編家庭教育的預算"},{"start":4026.41,"end":4028.41,"text":"甚至要多元"},{"start":4028.41,"end":4030.41,"text":"擴大想像家庭教育的面向"},{"start":4030.41,"end":4032.41,"text":"現在我們有家庭教育中心"},{"start":4032.41,"end":4034.41,"text":"但是我們看到他們非常習慣"},{"start":4034.41,"end":4036.41,"text":"辦一些課程跟活動"},{"start":4036.41,"end":4038.41,"text":"但是有沒有真的可以協助到"},{"start":4038.41,"end":4040.41,"text":"現場需要協助的家長"},{"start":4040.41,"end":4042.41,"text":"還有資源如何精準的投放"},{"start":4042.41,"end":4044.41,"text":"最後我也要說"},{"start":4044.41,"end":4046.41,"text":"過去我看到教育部甚至還主張"},{"start":4046.41,"end":4048.41,"text":"要叫學校老師"},{"start":4048.41,"end":4050.41,"text":"去對家長做家庭教育"},{"start":4050.41,"end":4052.41,"text":"這件事情來跟我們辦公室開會的時候"},{"start":4052.41,"end":4054.41,"text":"是講出這樣的話"},{"start":4054.41,"end":4056.41,"text":"我不知道次長你覺得有沒有很荒謬"},{"start":4056.41,"end":4058.41,"text":"當學校老師的壓力已經大到"},{"start":4058.41,"end":4060.41,"text":"自己都沒有辦法承擔"},{"start":4060.41,"end":4062.41,"text":"我們居然還要學校老師去協助家長"},{"start":4062.41,"end":4064.41,"text":"做家庭教育這件事情請不要再發生"},{"start":4064.41,"end":4066.41,"text":"所以關於家庭教育的部分"},{"start":4066.41,"end":4068.41,"text":"我就先說到這邊"},{"start":4068.41,"end":4070.41,"text":"我想把全部的部分都講完"},{"start":4070.41,"end":4072.41,"text":"第二個第三方專責機構"},{"start":4072.41,"end":4074.41,"text":"我要說的是現在也有很多學校老師"},{"start":4074.41,"end":4076.41,"text":"或是學校行政端主張"},{"start":4076.41,"end":4078.41,"text":"現在所有的司法狀況"},{"start":4078.41,"end":4080.41,"text":"發生在校園裡頭"},{"start":4080.41,"end":4082.41,"text":"讓校園不再是純粹的教學機構"},{"start":4082.41,"end":4084.41,"text":"但是第三方專責機構"},{"start":4084.41,"end":4086.41,"text":"這件事情未來有沒有可能"},{"start":4086.41,"end":4088.41,"text":"我認為在跟地方政府"},{"start":4088.41,"end":4090.41,"text":"要拜託教育部開始進行研議"},{"start":4090.41,"end":4092.41,"text":"當然這個程序當中必須公開公正"},{"start":4092.41,"end":4094.41,"text":"確保所有人的相關權益都受到照顧"},{"start":4094.41,"end":4096.41,"text":"還有要有實名過篩的機制"},{"start":4096.41,"end":4098.41,"text":"不要讓很多的濫訴一再的發生"},{"start":4098.41,"end":4100.41,"text":"同時要有專業人員的主導"},{"start":4100.41,"end":4102.41,"text":"還有政府資源的投入"},{"start":4102.41,"end":4104.41,"text":"因為現場的濫訴"},{"start":4104.41,"end":4106.41,"text":"我知道你們已經透過一些修法去解決了"},{"start":4110.2,"end":4112.2,"text":"你剛剛也說相關案件也變低"},{"start":4112.2,"end":4114.2,"text":"但是未來相關的公正性"},{"start":4114.2,"end":4116.2,"text":"如何確保我剛剛說的"},{"start":4116.2,"end":4118.2,"text":"家長的權益、學生的權益、老師的權益"},{"start":4118.2,"end":4120.2,"text":"還有學校行政單位的權益"},{"start":4120.2,"end":4122.2,"text":"都必須要受到照顧"},{"start":4122.2,"end":4124.2,"text":"這件事情沒有辦法偏袒任何一方"},{"start":4124.2,"end":4126.2,"text":"我們不希望當學生出事的時候"},{"start":4126.2,"end":4128.2,"text":"我們就覺得校事會議很重要"},{"start":4128.2,"end":4130.2,"text":"我們也不希望當老師出事的時候"},{"start":4130.2,"end":4132.2,"text":"我們就覺得校事會議不重要"},{"start":4132.2,"end":4136.2,"text":"我要說學校它是多元的角色所組成的"},{"start":4136.2,"end":4138.2,"text":"沒有任何一個角色可以被偏袒"},{"start":4138.2,"end":4140.2,"text":"但是也沒有任何一個角色可以被忽略"},{"start":4140.2,"end":4144.2,"text":"接下來我要講的是教師職業安全指引"},{"start":4144.2,"end":4146.2,"text":"我們如果去看現行的職安法裡面"},{"start":4146.2,"end":4150.2,"text":"如果要照顧到學校老師在職場被霸凌的部分"},{"start":4150.2,"end":4152.2,"text":"不論是師跟師之間的霸凌"},{"start":4152.2,"end":4154.2,"text":"或是長官對老師的霸凌"},{"start":4154.2,"end":4156.2,"text":"甚至是學生"},{"start":4156.2,"end":4158.2,"text":"如黃剛剛說的鐵錢教育裡面"},{"start":4158.2,"end":4160.2,"text":"目前我們看到相關的法規"},{"start":4160.2,"end":4162.2,"text":"只有第六條第二項"},{"start":4162.2,"end":4164.2,"text":"有關於執行職務的時候"},{"start":4164.2,"end":4166.2,"text":"因為他人的行為遭受身體或精神不法侵害之遇"},{"start":4166.2,"end":4168.2,"text":"也就是說目前職安法關於老師的部分只有這一條"},{"start":4168.2,"end":4170.2,"text":"目前我們看到有教育業務單位指出"},{"start":4170.2,"end":4172.2,"text":"各縣市在處理相關的事情會有自治事項"},{"start":4172.2,"end":4174.2,"text":"但是我們要說自治事項是不是各縣市制度都有統一"},{"start":4174.2,"end":4176.2,"text":"因為老師不會只有在單一縣市教學"},{"start":4176.2,"end":4178.2,"text":"老師一定會掉"},{"start":4178.2,"end":4180.2,"text":"所以如果現行的職安法相關的保障不周"},{"start":4180.2,"end":4182.2,"text":"而老師的職業安全指引"},{"start":4182.2,"end":4184.2,"text":"會有自治事項"},{"start":4184.2,"end":4186.2,"text":"所以如果現行的職安法相關的保障不周"},{"start":4186.2,"end":4188.2,"text":"而老師的職業安全指引"},{"start":4188.2,"end":4190.2,"text":"會有自治事項"},{"start":4190.2,"end":4192.2,"text":"所以如果現行的職安法相關的保障不周"},{"start":4192.2,"end":4194.2,"text":"而老師的職業安全指引"},{"start":4194.2,"end":4196.2,"text":"會有自治事項"},{"start":4196.2,"end":4198.2,"text":"所以如果現行的職安法相關的保障不周"},{"start":4198.2,"end":4200.2,"text":"而老師的職業安全又沒有辦法被保護"},{"start":4200.2,"end":4202.2,"text":"各縣市制度又不同意"},{"start":4202.2,"end":4204.2,"text":"我們認為有沒有辦法不要經過"},{"start":4204.2,"end":4206.2,"text":"冗長的立法程序"},{"start":4206.2,"end":4208.2,"text":"在教育部這邊提出老師的職業安全指引"},{"start":4208.2,"end":4210.2,"text":"我認為這件事情是可以比較"},{"start":4210.2,"end":4212.2,"text":"快速的保障老師的權益"},{"start":4212.2,"end":4214.2,"text":"同時"},{"start":4213.15,"end":4215.15,"text":"不影響學生跟家長的權益"},{"start":4215.15,"end":4217.15,"text":"來最後一個"},{"start":4217.15,"end":4219.15,"text":"教師離線權"},{"start":4219.15,"end":4221.15,"text":"離線權這件事情我相信是現在第一線"},{"start":4221.15,"end":4223.15,"text":"老師的痛苦"},{"start":4223.15,"end":4225.15,"text":"但是我也可以理解很多家長可能覺得"},{"start":4225.15,"end":4227.15,"text":"自己下班後才有時間打電話給老師"},{"start":4227.15,"end":4229.15,"text":"但是我想教育部應該要有相關"},{"start":4229.15,"end":4231.15,"text":"規定協助"},{"start":4231.15,"end":4233.15,"text":"老師當老師的後盾"},{"start":4233.15,"end":4235.15,"text":"因為每一個人都需要休息"},{"start":4235.15,"end":4237.15,"text":"孩子們回到家需要休息"},{"start":4237.15,"end":4239.15,"text":"所以我們希望孩子不要過度的補習"},{"start":4239.15,"end":4241.15,"text":"家長下班後我們也希望"},{"start":4241.15,"end":4243.15,"text":"家長的主管不要打擾家長"},{"start":4243.15,"end":4245.15,"text":"所以我們在勞動部有相關的法規"},{"start":4245.15,"end":4247.15,"text":"確保每一個勞工"},{"start":4247.15,"end":4249.15,"text":"離開職場之後他有好好的休息"},{"start":4249.15,"end":4251.15,"text":"一樣老師他某一個程度上"},{"start":4251.15,"end":4253.15,"text":"也需要他也是勞工"},{"start":4253.15,"end":4255.15,"text":"他也需要被保障他的休息權"},{"start":4255.15,"end":4257.15,"text":"當然我們知道當學生"},{"start":4257.15,"end":4259.15,"text":"遇到緊急事故的時候不得不聯絡"},{"start":4259.15,"end":4261.15,"text":"老師的時候這個時候他有特殊的原因"},{"start":4261.15,"end":4263.15,"text":"但是正常的休息時間"},{"start":4263.15,"end":4265.15,"text":"老師有權利不被打擾"},{"start":4265.58,"end":4267.58,"text":"以上我提出四個建議"},{"start":4267.58,"end":4269.58,"text":"從教師理學院權"},{"start":4269.58,"end":4271.58,"text":"教師職業安全指引"},{"start":4271.58,"end":4273.58,"text":"第三方專責機構跟教育部"},{"start":4273.58,"end":4275.58,"text":"持續協助家長做家庭教育這件事情"},{"start":4275.58,"end":4277.58,"text":"我想請教育部這邊簡單回應一下"},{"start":4277.58,"end":4279.58,"text":"好謝謝委員指導"},{"start":4279.58,"end":4281.58,"text":"一個合理的管教權"},{"start":4281.58,"end":4283.58,"text":"不要讓老師"},{"start":4283.58,"end":4285.58,"text":"失去尊嚴或是覺得無力"},{"start":4285.58,"end":4287.58,"text":"但是也要避免學生"},{"start":4287.58,"end":4289.58,"text":"學了恐懼或是受到傷害"},{"start":4289.58,"end":4291.58,"text":"我想這個拿捏"},{"start":4291.58,"end":4293.58,"text":"確實是教育部未來我們會跟"},{"start":4293.58,"end":4295.58,"text":"學校跟地方住管機關來進一步的討論"},{"start":4295.58,"end":4297.58,"text":"一個合理的"},{"start":4297.58,"end":4299.58,"text":"一個管教權"},{"start":4299.58,"end":4301.58,"text":"那另外在整個校事會議的處理"},{"start":4301.58,"end":4303.58,"text":"剛剛也提到我們半年內"},{"start":4303.58,"end":4305.58,"text":"會來做一些持續的精進"},{"start":4305.58,"end":4307.58,"text":"跟檢討那對於老師的"},{"start":4307.58,"end":4309.58,"text":"支持跟"},{"start":4309.58,"end":4311.58,"text":"激勵的措施陳主委"},{"start":4311.58,"end":4313.58,"text":"講的我們可以朝"},{"start":4313.58,"end":4315.58,"text":"有安全指引甚至透過"},{"start":4315.58,"end":4317.58,"text":"家庭教育來協助"},{"start":4317.58,"end":4319.58,"text":"那教育部我們先前已經有做的"},{"start":4319.58,"end":4321.58,"text":"就是在行政減量這個東西"},{"start":4321.58,"end":4323.58,"text":"那另外我們這邊都是希望透過事前的"},{"start":4323.58,"end":4325.58,"text":"一個減壓跟事後的一個"},{"start":4325.58,"end":4327.58,"text":"支持預防來協助"},{"start":4327.58,"end":4329.58,"text":"那最後委員提到了有關"},{"start":4329.58,"end":4331.58,"text":"第三方的一個"},{"start":4331.58,"end":4333.58,"text":"仲裁機制這個部分也有跟地方政府"},{"start":4333.58,"end":4335.58,"text":"有一些討論我想委員今天"},{"start":4335.58,"end":4337.58,"text":"建議我們也會來持續的跟"},{"start":4337.58,"end":4339.58,"text":"地方政府做一些磋商"},{"start":4339.58,"end":4341.58,"text":"那離獻權這個部分回到一樣是"},{"start":4341.58,"end":4343.58,"text":"機制面怎麼跟老師"},{"start":4343.58,"end":4345.58,"text":"的一個士氣的激勵"},{"start":4345.58,"end":4347.58,"text":"我們從去年開始調整了老師的"},{"start":4347.58,"end":4349.58,"text":"一些相關的家計"},{"start":4349.58,"end":4351.58,"text":"行政工作的獎金都是朝這個方向"},{"start":4351.58,"end":4353.58,"text":"在做我想我們會"},{"start":4353.58,"end":4355.58,"text":"以各具委的建議"},{"start":4355.58,"end":4357.58,"text":"我們來努力謝謝"},{"start":4357.58,"end":4359.58,"text":"我想我剛剛四個建議其實都不是"},{"start":4359.58,"end":4361.58,"text":"即時可以促成的但是"},{"start":4361.58,"end":4363.58,"text":"如果沒有累積這些"},{"start":4363.58,"end":4365.58,"text":"對於制度改革的決心我們"},{"start":4365.58,"end":4367.58,"text":"很擔心現場除了老師的"},{"start":4367.58,"end":4369.58,"text":"壓力其實家長也有壓力孩子們"},{"start":4369.58,"end":4371.58,"text":"也有壓力但是學校他應該是"},{"start":4371.58,"end":4373.58,"text":"一個學習的場合他是讓孩子"},{"start":4373.58,"end":4375.58,"text":"開拓視野也讓老師對"},{"start":4375.58,"end":4377.58,"text":"自己的職業有尊榮感甚至"},{"start":4377.58,"end":4379.58,"text":"讓家長安心的場域然後"},{"start":4379.58,"end":4381.58,"text":"所有願意付出時間做行政"},{"start":4381.58,"end":4383.58,"text":"的這些主管們他們也都"},{"start":4383.58,"end":4385.58,"text":"覺得可以安心的支持行政系統"},{"start":4385.58,"end":4387.58,"text":"我想這不是一個容易的事情"},{"start":4387.58,"end":4389.58,"text":"所以我們很負責任提出解放也"},{"start":4389.58,"end":4391.58,"text":"希望持續跟教育部溝通我們"},{"start":4391.58,"end":4393.58,"text":"把這些聲音從制度面做好"},{"start":4393.58,"end":4395.58,"text":"改革拜託教育部我們一起努力"},{"start":4395.58,"end":4397.58,"text":"謝謝好謝謝委員指導"},{"start":4401.31,"end":4403.31,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":4404.75,"end":4406.75,"text":"下一位有請"},{"start":4406.42,"end":4408.42,"text":"葛如金委員"},{"start":4422.17,"end":4424.17,"text":"好謝謝主席有請主次長"},{"start":4430.5,"end":4431,"text":"晚安早"},{"start":4431.75,"end":4433.75,"text":"次長早喔這個最近"},{"start":4433.75,"end":4435.75,"text":"台灣教育界不平靜"},{"start":4435.75,"end":4437.75,"text":"發生一些憾事"},{"start":4437.75,"end":4439.75,"text":"宜蘭有女老師"},{"start":4439.75,"end":4441.75,"text":"被丟鉛筆盒"},{"start":4441.75,"end":4443.75,"text":"導致被刺傷流血"},{"start":4444.76,"end":4446.76,"text":"那有國小女老師"},{"start":4446.76,"end":4448.76,"text":"這個被惡意的"},{"start":4448.76,"end":4450.76,"text":"這個做了傷害"},{"start":4450.76,"end":4452.76,"text":"那反而是"},{"start":4452.76,"end":4454.76,"text":"被校事會議認定"},{"start":4454.76,"end":4456.76,"text":"老師傷害學生"},{"start":4456.76,"end":4458.76,"text":"那因為他本能的把他"},{"start":4458.76,"end":4460.76,"text":"推開喔那"},{"start":4460.76,"end":4462.76,"text":"換來了一個身屆的處分"},{"start":4462.76,"end":4464.76,"text":"那還有這個"},{"start":4464.76,"end":4466.76,"text":"老師被捉弄弄壞桌椅"},{"start":4466.76,"end":4468.76,"text":"失去重心換來一個"},{"start":4468.76,"end":4470.76,"text":"慘衰"},{"start":4470.76,"end":4472.76,"text":"那還有最令人不捨跟遺憾的"},{"start":4472.76,"end":4474.76,"text":"還有罪魯聲望的訊息"},{"start":4475.75,"end":4477.75,"text":"那根據中小學校長"},{"start":4477.75,"end":4479.75,"text":"協會調查"},{"start":4479.75,"end":4481.75,"text":"發現近兩年"},{"start":4481.75,"end":4483.75,"text":"共有八十九所"},{"start":4483.75,"end":4485.75,"text":"學校回報"},{"start":4485.75,"end":4487.75,"text":"教師遭學生"},{"start":4487.75,"end":4489.75,"text":"攻擊受傷的情況"},{"start":4490.04,"end":4492.04,"text":"那部分教師出現恐懼"},{"start":4492.04,"end":4494.04,"text":"焦慮失眠喔這些都"},{"start":4494.04,"end":4496.04,"text":"可能只是冰山一角"},{"start":4496.15,"end":4498.15,"text":"那其實啊"},{"start":4498.15,"end":4500.15,"text":"教育部如果自己不努力啊"},{"start":4500.15,"end":4502.15,"text":"變成民間的媒體"},{"start":4502.15,"end":4504.15,"text":"比你們還認真喔這就不好了"},{"start":4504.15,"end":4506.15,"text":"親子天下的雜誌今年進行調查"},{"start":4507.42,"end":4509.42,"text":"有沒有看過"},{"start":4508.74,"end":4510.74,"text":"有沒有看過這個調查"},{"start":4510.74,"end":4512.74,"text":"沒看過我現在讓你看喔"},{"start":4512.74,"end":4514.74,"text":"市長這個數字啊"},{"start":4514.74,"end":4516.74,"text":"台灣國中小教師的"},{"start":4516.74,"end":4518.74,"text":"幸福感分數滿分100分"},{"start":4518.74,"end":4520.74,"text":"老師給的平均分數"},{"start":4520.74,"end":4522.74,"text":"六十分啊"},{"start":4522.59,"end":4524.59,"text":"不及格"},{"start":4524.43,"end":4526.43,"text":"學校要重視的就是"},{"start":4526.43,"end":4528.43,"text":"師生不是只有"},{"start":4528.43,"end":4530.43,"text":"學生的考試要及格啊"},{"start":4530.43,"end":4532.43,"text":"老師的幸福感滿意度"},{"start":4532.43,"end":4534.43,"text":"也應該要及格最慘的是啊"},{"start":4534.43,"end":4536.43,"text":"有高達六成的教師表示"},{"start":4536.43,"end":4538.43,"text":"五年內想要離開教職"},{"start":4538.43,"end":4540.43,"text":"還有五成的老師"},{"start":4540.43,"end":4542.43,"text":"表示啊如果有重新選擇"},{"start":4542.43,"end":4544.43,"text":"職業的機會絕對不願意"},{"start":4544.43,"end":4546.43,"text":"再投入教職啦"},{"start":4546.43,"end":4548.43,"text":"市長這是一個國家"},{"start":4548.43,"end":4550.43,"text":"教育政策徹底"},{"start":4550.43,"end":4552.43,"text":"失敗的重大警訊啊"},{"start":4552.43,"end":4554.43,"text":"假設一家公司裡面"},{"start":4554.43,"end":4556.43,"text":"有六成的員工表示五年內"},{"start":4556.43,"end":4558.43,"text":"想離職啊這個企業"},{"start":4558.43,"end":4560.43,"text":"還經營得下去嗎"},{"start":4560.43,"end":4562.43,"text":"這樣的企業有幸福嗎"},{"start":4562.43,"end":4564.43,"text":"那要提升幸福感"},{"start":4564.43,"end":4566.43,"text":"我們教育部啊竟然逆向"},{"start":4566.43,"end":4568.43,"text":"操作啊口口聲聲說"},{"start":4568.43,"end":4570.43,"text":"要行政減量結果呢"},{"start":4570.43,"end":4572.43,"text":"第一線的老師啊淪為"},{"start":4572.43,"end":4574.43,"text":"教育部政令宣導的免洗塊"},{"start":4574.43,"end":4576.43,"text":"隨便哪個部會"},{"start":4576.43,"end":4578.43,"text":"只要做政令宣導都可以來"},{"start":4578.43,"end":4580.43,"text":"使用一紙公文發出去"},{"start":4580.43,"end":4582.43,"text":"老師就要向學生"},{"start":4582.43,"end":4584.43,"text":"向家長做宣導"},{"start":4584.43,"end":4586.43,"text":"反毒交通安全性平交易"},{"start":4586.43,"end":4588.43,"text":"反詐騙衛生保健"},{"start":4588.43,"end":4590.43,"text":"這些政策我們都認同啊"},{"start":4590.43,"end":4592.43,"text":"啊但是這通常"},{"start":4592.43,"end":4594.43,"text":"每一個都造成"},{"start":4594.43,"end":4596.43,"text":"行政的增量"},{"start":4596.43,"end":4598.43,"text":"教育部口口聲聲行政減量"},{"start":4598.43,"end":4600.43,"text":"對外有沒有幫第一線老師們"},{"start":4600.43,"end":4602.43,"text":"拒絕過任何一項政令宣導的業務"},{"start":4602.43,"end":4604.43,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":4605.06,"end":4607.06,"text":"各位報告我們從去年開始"},{"start":4607.06,"end":4609.06,"text":"也在檢討整個行政減量的工作"},{"start":4609.06,"end":4611.06,"text":"那個部門"},{"start":4611.06,"end":4613.06,"text":"那我們現在講的都是今年還有啊"},{"start":4613.06,"end":4615.06,"text":"沒有關係啊"},{"start":4615.06,"end":4617.06,"text":"其實教育部今年四月"},{"start":4618.24,"end":4620.24,"text":"又有一個大宣布啊"},{"start":4620.45,"end":4622.45,"text":"這個事情次長您知道嗎"},{"start":4622.76,"end":4624.76,"text":"各位報告這部分"},{"start":4624.76,"end":4626.76,"text":"我們了解"},{"start":4626.76,"end":4628.76,"text":"但是他並不是由第一線的老師來執行"},{"start":4628.76,"end":4630.76,"text":"是由我們學校的學員能力"},{"start":4630.76,"end":4632.76,"text":"你先讓我說完喔"},{"start":4632.76,"end":4634.76,"text":"這個你們清新毒品問題"},{"start":4635.75,"end":4637.75,"text":"說要脫衣快篩"},{"start":4637.75,"end":4639.75,"text":"你說教育部"},{"start":4639.75,"end":4641.75,"text":"到底現在是誰來負責啊"},{"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事情發展"},{"start":5131.81,"end":5133.81,"text":"至此啊"},{"start":5133.91,"end":5135.91,"text":"本來啊我們還想說"},{"start":5135.91,"end":5137.91,"text":"哇 這個是什麼很像詐騙集團的感覺"},{"start":5137.91,"end":5139.91,"text":"哇 現在詐騙"},{"start":5139.91,"end":5141.91,"text":"真的本來只是詐騙者"},{"start":5141.91,"end":5143.91,"text":"現在變詐騙的集團了喔"},{"start":5143.91,"end":5145.91,"text":"這變成是一整個"},{"start":5145.91,"end":5147.91,"text":"團隊啊 欸恭喜"},{"start":5147.91,"end":5149.91,"text":"您中獎了"},{"start":5149.43,"end":5151.43,"text":"什麼時候領獎 不知道"},{"start":5151.43,"end":5153.43,"text":"啊中多少 不知道"},{"start":5153.43,"end":5155.43,"text":"先跟你說一百多億啦"},{"start":5155.43,"end":5157.43,"text":"啊之後再說細節"},{"start":5157.43,"end":5159.43,"text":"有這種的喔"},{"start":5159.43,"end":5161.43,"text":"我真的想喔 這樣子的做法"},{"start":5161.43,"end":5163.43,"text":"讓人很擔憂"},{"start":5163.43,"end":5165.43,"text":"所以我具體請教"},{"start":5165.43,"end":5167.43,"text":"到底什麼時候能完成所謂"},{"start":5167.43,"end":5169.43,"text":"大幅修正 什麼時候能上路"},{"start":5169.43,"end":5171.43,"text":"廣告都做了 來請說"},{"start":5171.43,"end":5173.43,"text":"官文報告行政院"},{"start":5173.43,"end":5177.43,"text":"已經同意我們AI人才方舟計畫了"},{"start":5180.8,"end":5182.8,"text":"完整細節 沒給啊"},{"start":5183.03,"end":5185.03,"text":"多少錢"},{"start":5184.77,"end":5186.77,"text":"什麼時候執行"},{"start":5186.77,"end":5188.77,"text":"而且那個副長說明我們核定的程序"},{"start":5188.77,"end":5190.77,"text":"我時間有限"},{"start":5190.77,"end":5192.77,"text":"什麼時候執行多少錢"},{"start":5192.77,"end":5194.77,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5194.77,"end":5196.77,"text":"那目前是核定從今年開始"},{"start":5196.77,"end":5198.77,"text":"累計四年"},{"start":5198.77,"end":5200.77,"text":"四年總共編定了117億的預算"},{"start":5200.77,"end":5202.77,"text":"會不會改"},{"start":5202.77,"end":5204.77,"text":"我們問了你們不敢講啊"},{"start":5204.77,"end":5206.77,"text":"不會跟委員報告"},{"start":5206.77,"end":5208.77,"text":"執行什麼時候執行"},{"start":5208.77,"end":5210.77,"text":"從現在就開始執行往後的四年"},{"start":5210.77,"end":5212.77,"text":"現在已經在執行"},{"start":5212.77,"end":5214.77,"text":"完全機關的目的"},{"start":5214.77,"end":5216.77,"text":"可以提供給委員"},{"start":5216.77,"end":5218.77,"text":"又來了"},{"start":5218.77,"end":5220.77,"text":"我們絲索之都不能提供"},{"start":5220.77,"end":5222.77,"text":"到這裡突然又都可以了"},{"start":5222.77,"end":5224.77,"text":"到底是怎樣"},{"start":5224.77,"end":5226.77,"text":"跟詐騙集團"},{"start":5226.77,"end":5228.77,"text":"被抓包了"},{"start":5228.77,"end":5230.77,"text":"我可以給你錢"},{"start":5230.77,"end":5232.77,"text":"不要這樣好不好"},{"start":5232.77,"end":5234.77,"text":"該提供的資訊提供清楚"},{"start":5234.77,"end":5236.77,"text":"相關的規劃"},{"start":5235.63,"end":5237.63,"text":"趕快提供"},{"start":5237.63,"end":5239.63,"text":"提供給委員"},{"start":5239.63,"end":5241.63,"text":"對不起主席我再爭取一點點時間"},{"start":5241.63,"end":5243.63,"text":"這個AI的公司協力"},{"start":5243.63,"end":5245.63,"text":"全世界都在拼"},{"start":5245.63,"end":5247.63,"text":"這個怎麼樣去結合"},{"start":5247.63,"end":5249.63,"text":"這個公司協力"},{"start":5249.63,"end":5251.63,"text":"來提供學生更多的"},{"start":5251.63,"end":5253.63,"text":"AI的能量"},{"start":5253.63,"end":5255.63,"text":"一個月內書面提供給本席"},{"start":5255.63,"end":5257.63,"text":"相關資訊我們也會提供給你們"},{"start":5257.63,"end":5259.63,"text":"那另外"},{"start":5259.63,"end":5261.63,"text":"本席也整理了一下"},{"start":5261.63,"end":5263.63,"text":"為經濟弱勢的學生要來爭取"},{"start":5263.63,"end":5265.63,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":5265.63,"end":5267.63,"text":"因為他們現在真的沒有錢"},{"start":5267.63,"end":5269.63,"text":"學費、貸款、網路費、貸款"},{"start":5269.63,"end":5271.63,"text":"他們沒有錢去付AI的費用"},{"start":5273.63,"end":5275.63,"text":"免費學生方案有期限"},{"start":5275.63,"end":5277.63,"text":"校園授權軟體"},{"start":5277.63,"end":5279.63,"text":"目前沒有付費公版的AI"},{"start":5279.63,"end":5281.63,"text":"那有學校"},{"start":5281.63,"end":5283.63,"text":"已經先領頭了"},{"start":5283.63,"end":5285.63,"text":"長庚大學做得很棒"},{"start":5285.63,"end":5287.63,"text":"1000個學生"},{"start":5287.63,"end":5289.63,"text":"有特定品牌的付費AI"},{"start":5289.63,"end":5291.63,"text":"可以用兩個月"},{"start":5291.63,"end":5293.63,"text":"其實也沒有編列補助"},{"start":5293.63,"end":5295.63,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":5295.63,"end":5297.63,"text":"也希望這個次長"},{"start":5297.63,"end":5299.63,"text":"站在AI平權的立場"},{"start":5299.63,"end":5301.63,"text":"我們一起來推動兩個業務"},{"start":5301.63,"end":5303.63,"text":"就是說第一"},{"start":5303.63,"end":5305.63,"text":"研議經濟弱勢的學生"},{"start":5305.63,"end":5307.63,"text":"我們來做AI的補助"},{"start":5307.63,"end":5309.63,"text":"不要讓他們的吃飯錢、便當錢"},{"start":5309.63,"end":5311.63,"text":"來用AI、買AI的工具"},{"start":5311.63,"end":5313.63,"text":"那也研議"},{"start":5313.63,"end":5315.63,"text":"就是說這個大學的系所"},{"start":5315.63,"end":5317.63,"text":"進行AI工具的付費AI工具的調查"},{"start":5317.63,"end":5319.63,"text":"因為以前我們有版權軟體"},{"start":5319.63,"end":5321.63,"text":"那教育部的AI或版權的AI"},{"start":5321.63,"end":5323.63,"text":"這個來補助系所加強資源"},{"start":5323.63,"end":5325.63,"text":"我剛剛是比較"},{"start":5325.63,"end":5327.63,"text":"希望真的要注重學生的權益"},{"start":5327.63,"end":5329.63,"text":"那所以真的很投入"},{"start":5329.63,"end":5331.63,"text":"也請見諒"},{"start":5331.63,"end":5333.63,"text":"那教育部我還是要感謝"},{"start":5333.63,"end":5335.63,"text":"你們管管有AI"},{"start":5335.63,"end":5337.63,"text":"然後這個也說"},{"start":5337.63,"end":5339.63,"text":"我們也聽到高教師"},{"start":5339.63,"end":5341.63,"text":"有說新一年度的預算"},{"start":5341.63,"end":5343.63,"text":"會編列大學的付費AI"},{"start":5343.63,"end":5345.63,"text":"所以這個我們也一直爭取"},{"start":5345.63,"end":5347.63,"text":"謝謝你們的回應"},{"start":5347.63,"end":5349.63,"text":"要變成大學的管管有AI"},{"start":5349.63,"end":5351.63,"text":"大學的圖書館也要有"},{"start":5351.63,"end":5353.63,"text":"變成系系有AI、系管也有AI"},{"start":5353.63,"end":5355.63,"text":"變成師生人人有AI"},{"start":5355.63,"end":5357.63,"text":"好不好,我們一起往這裡前進"},{"start":5357.63,"end":5359.63,"text":"最後我想對昨天運動部"},{"start":5359.63,"end":5361.63,"text":"尋訪的內容做一個澄清"},{"start":5361.63,"end":5363.63,"text":"昨天我轉述林怡錦委員的質詢"},{"start":5363.63,"end":5365.63,"text":"她引用運動部的報告說"},{"start":5365.63,"end":5367.63,"text":"制定前瞻性的法規命令"},{"start":5367.63,"end":5369.63,"text":"來策略做法"},{"start":5369.63,"end":5371.63,"text":"我當下在台下聽到"},{"start":5371.63,"end":5373.63,"text":"把這句話解讀成為"},{"start":5373.63,"end":5375.63,"text":"是制定前瞻性的法規命令"},{"start":5375.63,"end":5377.63,"text":"就是電競基本法"},{"start":5377.63,"end":5379.63,"text":"而策略做法就是行政"},{"start":5379.63,"end":5381.63,"text":"所以我把這段話解讀為"},{"start":5381.63,"end":5383.63,"text":"沒有法律,部會就沒有辦法"},{"start":5383.63,"end":5385.63,"text":"採取行政作為"},{"start":5385.63,"end":5387.63,"text":"事後發現我和林怡錦委員"},{"start":5387.63,"end":5389.63,"text":"是對於運動部報告的內容"},{"start":5389.63,"end":5391.63,"text":"有點各自解讀"},{"start":5391.63,"end":5393.63,"text":"林怡錦委員確實沒有表達"},{"start":5393.63,"end":5395.63,"text":"沒有法律就無法行政的意思"},{"start":5395.63,"end":5397.63,"text":"我要在此對大家表示歉意"},{"start":5397.63,"end":5399.63,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5398.15,"end":5400.15,"text":"謝謝市長"},{"start":5400.94,"end":5402.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5402.88,"end":5404.88,"text":"麻煩市長有關方舟計畫"},{"start":5406.22,"end":5408.22,"text":"相關的計畫內容"},{"start":5408.89,"end":5410.89,"text":"最後交給所有的委員"},{"start":5412.75,"end":5414.75,"text":"完整的內容請交付所有的委員"},{"start":5416.67,"end":5418.67,"text":"交給委員會"},{"start":5418.52,"end":5420.52,"text":"有關於公司協力"},{"start":5420.99,"end":5422.99,"text":"相關的一些計畫籌備"},{"start":5424.55,"end":5426.55,"text":"剛剛委員有提到一個月內"},{"start":5426.55,"end":5428.55,"text":"是否也可以一個月內"},{"start":5428.55,"end":5430.55,"text":"彙整相關公司協力的部分"},{"start":5435.63,"end":5437.63,"text":"合作提供相關的AI"},{"start":5437.63,"end":5439.63,"text":"給我們的孩子"},{"start":5439.63,"end":5441.63,"text":"的部分"},{"start":5441.63,"end":5443.63,"text":"是不是一個月內相關做一個測備"},{"start":5446.21,"end":5448.21,"text":"也是一個月"},{"start":5448.21,"end":5450.21,"text":"麻煩謝謝"},{"start":5457.27,"end":5459.27,"text":"下一位陳秀寶委員"},{"start":5462.68,"end":5464.68,"text":"不好意思我們在郭育芹委員"},{"start":5464.68,"end":5466.68,"text":"發言完畢以後"},{"start":5466.68,"end":5468.68,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":5470.48,"end":5472.48,"text":"謝謝主席請助次長"},{"start":5473.52,"end":5475.52,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5477.28,"end":5479.28,"text":"委員早"},{"start":5478.26,"end":5480.26,"text":"次長早"},{"start":5480.26,"end":5482.26,"text":"教育部現行已經推動了"},{"start":5482.26,"end":5484.26,"text":"許多助學的措施"},{"start":5484.26,"end":5486.26,"text":"包含學雜費減免"},{"start":5486.26,"end":5488.26,"text":"拉進公司立學校學雜費"},{"start":5488.26,"end":5490.26,"text":"差距方案"},{"start":5490.26,"end":5492.26,"text":"大專校園落實學生助學計畫"},{"start":5492.26,"end":5494.26,"text":"以及就學貸款"},{"start":5494.26,"end":5496.26,"text":"總編列的預算高達238.15億"},{"start":5496.26,"end":5498.26,"text":"所有助學措施涵蓋率"},{"start":5498.26,"end":5500.26,"text":"大概有52%"},{"start":5500.26,"end":5502.26,"text":"教育部辦理這些助學措施"},{"start":5502.26,"end":5504.26,"text":"目前也是以修正"},{"start":5504.26,"end":5506.26,"text":"辦法的方式來推動"},{"start":5506.26,"end":5508.26,"text":"就是說以辦法的方式"},{"start":5508.26,"end":5510.26,"text":"是比較能夠及時"},{"start":5510.26,"end":5512.26,"text":"因應學生的需求"},{"start":5512.26,"end":5514.26,"text":"當我們的學生受到"},{"start":5514.26,"end":5516.26,"text":"大環境的變化家庭因素"},{"start":5516.26,"end":5518.26,"text":"或是影響學生"},{"start":5518.26,"end":5520.26,"text":"就學的事件的時候"},{"start":5520.26,"end":5522.26,"text":"教育部就能夠因應不同的需求"},{"start":5522.26,"end":5524.26,"text":"訂定這個助學措施"},{"start":5524.26,"end":5526.26,"text":"來台性的因應各種情況"},{"start":5526.26,"end":5528.26,"text":"因此本席提案"},{"start":5528.26,"end":5530.26,"text":"增進政府因應"},{"start":5530.26,"end":5532.26,"text":"學生家庭所得或其他"},{"start":5532.26,"end":5534.26,"text":"突發經濟不利情況"},{"start":5534.26,"end":5536.26,"text":"中經濟不利處境學生助學措施"},{"start":5536.26,"end":5538.26,"text":"這樣一個概括性的條文"},{"start":5538.26,"end":5540.26,"text":"詳細遵循的事項辦法"},{"start":5540.26,"end":5542.26,"text":"就授權給教育部來訂"},{"start":5542.26,"end":5544.26,"text":"那次長你覺得"},{"start":5544.26,"end":5546.26,"text":"這樣的修法內容"},{"start":5546.26,"end":5548.26,"text":"是不是對於教育部推動助學措施"},{"start":5548.26,"end":5550.26,"text":"是比較有利比較有彈性的"},{"start":5550.26,"end":5552.26,"text":"是謝謝委員指導"},{"start":5552.26,"end":5554.26,"text":"確實在目前的助學措施"},{"start":5554.26,"end":5556.26,"text":"像以就代的辦法"},{"start":5556.26,"end":5558.26,"text":"本來在大學法就有個授權的規定"},{"start":5558.26,"end":5560.26,"text":"所以教育部以往針對"},{"start":5560.26,"end":5562.26,"text":"就代的一些經濟"},{"start":5562.26,"end":5564.26,"text":"生態的資格寬限期的長短"},{"start":5564.26,"end":5566.26,"text":"甚至我們提供畢業後"},{"start":5566.26,"end":5568.26,"text":"如果你的月薪沒有達到"},{"start":5568.26,"end":5570.26,"text":"五萬塊你還可以申請"},{"start":5570.26,"end":5572.26,"text":"先還繳本息都不用負擔"},{"start":5572.26,"end":5574.26,"text":"這個部分從民國95年"},{"start":5574.26,"end":5576.26,"text":"到115年"},{"start":5576.26,"end":5578.26,"text":"是20年我們已經從3萬"},{"start":5578.26,"end":5580.26,"text":"一路放到5萬甚至以後你多生個小朋友"},{"start":5580.26,"end":5582.26,"text":"你大概可以多你的月薪"},{"start":5582.26,"end":5584.26,"text":"6萬兩個就7萬"},{"start":5584.26,"end":5586.26,"text":"所以這個部分都不用修法"},{"start":5586.26,"end":5588.26,"text":"再授權辦法就可以做"},{"start":5588.26,"end":5590.26,"text":"所以是授權的授權辦法"},{"start":5590.26,"end":5592.26,"text":"所以教育部以往的各種不同發生的狀況"},{"start":5592.26,"end":5594.26,"text":"隨時來做調整"},{"start":5594.26,"end":5596.26,"text":"它是比較彈性的"},{"start":5596.26,"end":5598.26,"text":"所以說以學代目前來講"},{"start":5598.26,"end":5600.26,"text":"其實教育部能夠為學生做了"},{"start":5600.26,"end":5602.26,"text":"為學生設想的"},{"start":5602.26,"end":5604.26,"text":"剛剛我講了這個涵蓋的雨天來到"},{"start":5604.26,"end":5606.26,"text":"52%我想教育部這邊"},{"start":5606.26,"end":5608.26,"text":"也陸續的在就各種"},{"start":5608.26,"end":5610.26,"text":"方面各種面向滾動的檢討"},{"start":5610.26,"end":5612.26,"text":"也希望說提供給我們"},{"start":5612.26,"end":5614.26,"text":"學生更多"},{"start":5614.26,"end":5616.26,"text":"更有力更全面的協助"},{"start":5616.26,"end":5618.26,"text":"是嗎是沒有錯"},{"start":5618.26,"end":5620.26,"text":"謝謝次長"},{"start":5620.26,"end":5622.26,"text":"接下來我想要針對近期發生"},{"start":5622.26,"end":5624.26,"text":"教師的壓力事件"},{"start":5624.26,"end":5626.26,"text":"有基層教師罪的"},{"start":5626.26,"end":5628.26,"text":"漢市來關心教學現場"},{"start":5628.26,"end":5630.26,"text":"老師的壓力"},{"start":5630.26,"end":5632.26,"text":"根據教育部校安通報中"},{"start":5632.26,"end":5634.26,"text":"師長與學生衝突事件"},{"start":5634.26,"end":5636.26,"text":"這些衝突事件裡面的行為人"},{"start":5636.26,"end":5638.26,"text":"是學生這個統計數字來看"},{"start":5638.26,"end":5640.26,"text":"113年有297件"},{"start":5640.26,"end":5642.26,"text":"114年"},{"start":5642.26,"end":5644.26,"text":"有477件"},{"start":5644.26,"end":5646.26,"text":"但是115年到4月"},{"start":5646.26,"end":5648.26,"text":"已經通報了200件"},{"start":5648.26,"end":5650.26,"text":"等於一個月就有50件"},{"start":5650.26,"end":5652.26,"text":"那師生衝突也就是"},{"start":5652.26,"end":5654.26,"text":"教學現場是老師要面臨一個"},{"start":5654.26,"end":5656.26,"text":"很大的壓力之一"},{"start":5656.26,"end":5658.26,"text":"接下來老師的壓力跟困境要如何緩解"},{"start":5658.26,"end":5660.26,"text":"本席覺得說這現在是教育部"},{"start":5660.26,"end":5662.26,"text":"目前要很積極處理的問題"},{"start":5662.26,"end":5664.26,"text":"那很多團體"},{"start":5664.26,"end":5666.26,"text":"以及在野黨立委直指說"},{"start":5666.26,"end":5668.26,"text":"校事會議是主因啦"},{"start":5668.26,"end":5670.26,"text":"即便說教育部現在有透過分流"},{"start":5670.26,"end":5672.26,"text":"反而濫述這樣來踩煞車"},{"start":5672.26,"end":5674.26,"text":"但是其中針對就是"},{"start":5674.26,"end":5676.26,"text":"專業尊嚴受損或是防疫性教學"},{"start":5676.26,"end":5678.26,"text":"這樣的影響是"},{"start":5678.26,"end":5680.26,"text":"一直就都存在"},{"start":5680.26,"end":5682.26,"text":"那重視青師之間的"},{"start":5682.26,"end":5684.26,"text":"這個已經被摧毀"},{"start":5684.26,"end":5686.26,"text":"這個信任感"},{"start":5686.26,"end":5688.26,"text":"我們該如何去重建它"},{"start":5688.26,"end":5690.26,"text":"我想這個需要"},{"start":5690.26,"end":5692.26,"text":"很長的時間"},{"start":5692.26,"end":5694.26,"text":"那如何讓制度回歸當初我們2020"},{"start":5694.26,"end":5696.26,"text":"推出這個"},{"start":5696.26,"end":5698.26,"text":"教師會議這個的原意就是為了要建立"},{"start":5698.26,"end":5700.26,"text":"客觀制度化的這樣一個管道"},{"start":5700.26,"end":5702.26,"text":"來踩除不適任的教師"},{"start":5702.26,"end":5704.26,"text":"那這就是我們在教育部"},{"start":5704.26,"end":5706.26,"text":"的新生就學的權益"},{"start":5706.26,"end":5708.26,"text":"那但是到今天這樣的狀況了"},{"start":5708.26,"end":5710.26,"text":"我覺得教育部應該有更積極的"},{"start":5710.26,"end":5712.26,"text":"作為喔"},{"start":5712.26,"end":5714.26,"text":"但是這個同時我們必須要一起來討論"},{"start":5714.26,"end":5716.26,"text":"關心就是兒少的部分"},{"start":5716.26,"end":5718.26,"text":"根據媒體報導呢"},{"start":5718.26,"end":5720.26,"text":"2025年高中以下"},{"start":5720.26,"end":5722.26,"text":"親生的兒少"},{"start":5722.26,"end":5724.26,"text":"創19年來的新高"},{"start":5724.26,"end":5726.26,"text":"自殺死亡人數來到60人"},{"start":5726.26,"end":5728.26,"text":"除了學習的壓力呢"},{"start":5728.26,"end":5730.26,"text":"其實兒少還面臨多種的壓力"},{"start":5730.26,"end":5732.26,"text":"那在這種情況下學校就變成"},{"start":5732.26,"end":5734.26,"text":"像是一個壓力國"},{"start":5734.26,"end":5736.26,"text":"可能學校這樣的壓力"},{"start":5736.26,"end":5738.26,"text":"變成說不管是老師或是學生"},{"start":5738.26,"end":5740.26,"text":"他每天想到去學校"},{"start":5740.26,"end":5742.26,"text":"都是一件局部為堅"},{"start":5742.26,"end":5744.26,"text":"就是很困難的事情"},{"start":5744.26,"end":5746.26,"text":"加上目前喔"},{"start":5746.26,"end":5748.26,"text":"親師生"},{"start":5748.26,"end":5750.26,"text":"之間這種高度的緊張的"},{"start":5750.26,"end":5752.26,"text":"互動關係我想發生的狀況"},{"start":5752.26,"end":5754.26,"text":"會越來越多"},{"start":5754.26,"end":5756.26,"text":"那其中本席在預算審查的時候"},{"start":5756.26,"end":5758.26,"text":"有提到說越來越多孩子會透過"},{"start":5758.26,"end":5760.26,"text":"或者是AI聊天"},{"start":5760.26,"end":5762.26,"text":"來紓解心中的壓力"},{"start":5762.26,"end":5764.26,"text":"或是說他不知道去跟誰求助的時候"},{"start":5764.26,"end":5766.26,"text":"他跟線上AI的系統"},{"start":5766.26,"end":5768.26,"text":"來求助"},{"start":5768.26,"end":5770.26,"text":"但是國外也確實是發生說"},{"start":5770.26,"end":5772.26,"text":"有生成是AI引導使用者自殺症的案例"},{"start":5772.26,"end":5774.26,"text":"但是目前我們並沒有看到"},{"start":5774.26,"end":5776.26,"text":"有相關應對的這個方式"},{"start":5776.26,"end":5778.26,"text":"這也是我們要去特別的關注的"},{"start":5778.26,"end":5780.26,"text":"那不快樂的教師"},{"start":5780.26,"end":5782.26,"text":"就不會教出快樂的學生"},{"start":5782.26,"end":5784.26,"text":"這是必然的"},{"start":5784.26,"end":5786.26,"text":"因此來教學現場老師面臨很多的壓力"},{"start":5786.26,"end":5788.26,"text":"例如剛才很多委員有提到過的"},{"start":5788.26,"end":5790.26,"text":"政策執行的壓力"},{"start":5790.26,"end":5792.26,"text":"或者說是第一線學生衝突的情緒"},{"start":5792.26,"end":5794.26,"text":"還有繁重的行政"},{"start":5794.26,"end":5796.26,"text":"業務的工作"},{"start":5796.26,"end":5798.26,"text":"那如果教育部提出的方法"},{"start":5798.26,"end":5800.26,"text":"跟配套沒有有效的緩解"},{"start":5800.26,"end":5802.26,"text":"教學現場老師的壓力跟困境"},{"start":5802.26,"end":5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故意戳老師"},{"start":8571.28,"end":8573.28,"text":"訪談五位同學生中"},{"start":8573.28,"end":8575.28,"text":"有三位提到"},{"start":8575.15,"end":8577.15,"text":"被行為人"},{"start":8577.15,"end":8579.15,"text":"有些問旁邊的同學"},{"start":8579.99,"end":8581.99,"text":"要不要戳老師"},{"start":8583.95,"end":8585.95,"text":"眾上所述"},{"start":8585.86,"end":8587.86,"text":"調查小組認為"},{"start":8587.58,"end":8589.58,"text":"即使被行為人"},{"start":8589.58,"end":8591.58,"text":"是故意戳"},{"start":8591.58,"end":8593.58,"text":"行為人的屁股"},{"start":8594.13,"end":8596.13,"text":"甚至是直接啦"},{"start":8596.13,"end":8598.13,"text":"這個我就不念了"},{"start":8598.65,"end":8600.65,"text":"身為老師還是不應該"},{"start":8600.65,"end":8602.65,"text":"有傷害學生的機會"},{"start":8602.65,"end":8604.65,"text":"對於這個案例"},{"start":8605.28,"end":8607.28,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":8607.07,"end":8609.07,"text":"老師非常無奈"},{"start":8609.07,"end":8611.07,"text":"那你怎麼看"},{"start":8611.07,"end":8613.07,"text":"市長"},{"start":8613.07,"end":8615.07,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":8615.07,"end":8617.07,"text":"因為這是一三年的案子"},{"start":8617.07,"end":8619.07,"text":"所以我們會請那個"},{"start":8619.07,"end":8621.07,"text":"宜蘭縣政府這邊來處理"},{"start":8621.07,"end":8623.07,"text":"但是在今年"},{"start":8623.07,"end":8625.07,"text":"一五年一月修正"},{"start":8625.07,"end":8627.07,"text":"我們的教育體會"},{"start":8627.07,"end":8629.07,"text":"的辦法之後"},{"start":8629.07,"end":8631.07,"text":"對於如果在校事會的決議"},{"start":8631.07,"end":8633.07,"text":"有不當的主管機關是可以"},{"start":8633.07,"end":8635.07,"text":"退回學校去重啟"},{"start":8635.07,"end":8637.07,"text":"你有沒有覺得不當"},{"start":8637.52,"end":8639.52,"text":"這個部分我想因為"},{"start":8639.52,"end":8641.52,"text":"這個審議結果你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":8641.52,"end":8643.52,"text":"這部分要由主管機關"},{"start":8643.52,"end":8645.52,"text":"他們可能要再去做一些審訊"},{"start":8645.52,"end":8647.52,"text":"跟重新"},{"start":8647.52,"end":8649.52,"text":"那這個你有沒有覺得他應該重新"},{"start":8649.52,"end":8651.52,"text":"再做一個評估"},{"start":8651.52,"end":8653.52,"text":"如果以我"},{"start":8653.52,"end":8655.52,"text":"因為這個案子這個個案"},{"start":8655.52,"end":8657.52,"text":"我沒有去看到他詳細的案子"},{"start":8657.52,"end":8659.52,"text":"但如果以目前的這個部分來看"},{"start":8659.52,"end":8661.52,"text":"確實主管機關有在審訊的必要"},{"start":8661.52,"end":8663.52,"text":"我想這個部分"},{"start":8663.52,"end":8665.52,"text":"我們都要好好的重視"},{"start":8665.52,"end":8667.52,"text":"這次校的體權教育"},{"start":8667.16,"end":8669.16,"text":"到現在我們看到許多的個案"},{"start":8669.16,"end":8671.16,"text":"不斷的被放在網路上"},{"start":8671.16,"end":8673.16,"text":"供大家來檢視"},{"start":8673.16,"end":8675.16,"text":"我們的校園到底怎麼"},{"start":8675.3,"end":8677.3,"text":"我也要來讓你看看"},{"start":8677.3,"end":8679.3,"text":"我們不要只看體權教育"},{"start":8679.3,"end":8681.3,"text":"這樣子的一個韓劇"},{"start":8681.3,"end":8683.3,"text":"我們來看"},{"start":8682.34,"end":8684.34,"text":"真實各個國家"},{"start":8684.8,"end":8686.8,"text":"有沒有發生類似的問題他們怎麼來解決"},{"start":8686.8,"end":8688.8,"text":"我們來看下一個VDD"},{"start":8690.54,"end":8692.54,"text":"台灣跟韓國"},{"start":8692.8,"end":8694.8,"text":"我想我們都有一個非常"},{"start":8694.8,"end":8696.8,"text":"高相似度的"},{"start":8696.8,"end":8698.8,"text":"就是家長的投訴機制"},{"start":8700.1,"end":8702.1,"text":"我們當然要給他們一個投訴機制"},{"start":8702.1,"end":8704.1,"text":"但是有沒有"},{"start":8704.1,"end":8706.1,"text":"去了解到是不是有失控"},{"start":8706.1,"end":8708.1,"text":"是不是有失公允"},{"start":8708.31,"end":8710.31,"text":"那造成防禦性的教學蔓延"},{"start":8710.31,"end":8712.31,"text":"教師的心理健康惡化"},{"start":8712.31,"end":8714.31,"text":"所以韓國"},{"start":8714.31,"end":8716.31,"text":"在九年內"},{"start":8718.16,"end":8720.16,"text":"網路的資料是寫"},{"start":8720.16,"end":8722.16,"text":"11600多名的教師"},{"start":8722.16,"end":8724.16,"text":"遭家長以虐童的名義"},{"start":8724.16,"end":8726.16,"text":"來做檢舉"},{"start":8726.16,"end":8728.16,"text":"最終引爆2023年"},{"start":8728.16,"end":8730.16,"text":"有教師自殺事件"},{"start":8730.16,"end":8732.16,"text":"促使立法回應"},{"start":8732.16,"end":8734.16,"text":"那台灣的狀況"},{"start":8734.16,"end":8736.16,"text":"我想不用我再多說了"},{"start":8736.16,"end":8738.16,"text":"台灣的狀況近期也是非常的相似"},{"start":8738.16,"end":8740.16,"text":"那我們看下一個"},{"start":8740.84,"end":8742.84,"text":"在2023年他們的修法"},{"start":8742.84,"end":8744.84,"text":"的內容當中我們可以看到"},{"start":8744.84,"end":8746.84,"text":"他們韓國修法"},{"start":8746.84,"end":8748.84,"text":"的核心內容包括"},{"start":8748.84,"end":8750.84,"text":"明文規定家長尊重教師"},{"start":8750.84,"end":8752.84,"text":"的教育指導義務"},{"start":8753.51,"end":8755.51,"text":"賦予校長處理家長投訴的責任"},{"start":8757.95,"end":8759.95,"text":"教師正當生活指導"},{"start":8759.95,"end":8761.95,"text":"排除"},{"start":8762.39,"end":8764.39,"text":"兒童福利法"},{"start":8764.39,"end":8766.39,"text":"不分禁止行為的適用"},{"start":8766.66,"end":8768.66,"text":"教師遭虐童檢舉時"},{"start":8768.66,"end":8770.66,"text":"禁止無正當理由的停止"},{"start":8770.66,"end":8772.66,"text":"但是"},{"start":8772.66,"end":8774.66,"text":"教育需立即的"},{"start":8774.66,"end":8776.66,"text":"迅速表達意見"},{"start":8778.17,"end":8780.17,"text":"家長惡意投訴"},{"start":8780.17,"end":8782.17,"text":"妨礙公務罪、誣告罪"},{"start":8782.17,"end":8784.17,"text":"等納入侵害教育"},{"start":8784.17,"end":8786.17,"text":"生活相關的"},{"start":8786.17,"end":8788.17,"text":"活動行為"},{"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跟我們報告因為在"},{"start":8903.53,"end":8905.53,"text":"今年1月公佈之後"},{"start":8905.53,"end":8907.53,"text":"我們有說有半年時間"},{"start":8907.53,"end":8909.53,"text":"我們在7月份的時候"},{"start":8909.53,"end":8911.53,"text":"會針對我們"},{"start":8911.53,"end":8913.53,"text":"這半年以來"},{"start":8913.53,"end":8915.53,"text":"7月有沒有大概具體幾號"},{"start":8916.76,"end":8918.76,"text":"我們在7月中以前"},{"start":8919.31,"end":8921.31,"text":"7月中會有一個分析檢討"},{"start":8921.31,"end":8923.31,"text":"7月中我是希望說"},{"start":8923.31,"end":8925.31,"text":"這個分析檢討真的要讓我們都知道"},{"start":8925.31,"end":8927.31,"text":"一下 那有沒有朝向"},{"start":8927.31,"end":8929.31,"text":"更進一步怎麼樣的一個修正"},{"start":8929.31,"end":8931.31,"text":"比如說現階段教師"},{"start":8931.31,"end":8933.31,"text":"還是對於匿名檢舉"},{"start":8933.31,"end":8935.31,"text":"這個部分還是很有意見的"},{"start":8935.31,"end":8937.31,"text":"匿名檢舉能不能夠"},{"start":8937.31,"end":8939.31,"text":"有更公平的"},{"start":8939.31,"end":8941.31,"text":"一個做法 這部分可以回應"},{"start":8941.31,"end":8943.31,"text":"一下嗎 好 謝謝"},{"start":8943.31,"end":8945.31,"text":"我針對剛剛委員提點"},{"start":8945.31,"end":8947.31,"text":"的 我們接下來也會"},{"start":8947.31,"end":8949.31,"text":"針對剛剛提到在教師管教"},{"start":8949.31,"end":8951.31,"text":"的部分 會有一些"},{"start":8951.31,"end":8953.31,"text":"更明確的 是不是可以參考"},{"start":8953.31,"end":8955.31,"text":"委員剛剛提示的"},{"start":8955.31,"end":8957.31,"text":"剛剛提示你說另外要參考的部分"},{"start":8957.31,"end":8959.31,"text":"我說教師會議的部分"},{"start":8959.31,"end":8961.31,"text":"你們要朝向哪裡修正 可不可以跟大家"},{"start":8961.31,"end":8963.31,"text":"先預告一下"},{"start":8962.93,"end":8964.93,"text":"其實我們 現在已經"},{"start":8964.93,"end":8966.93,"text":"刪除那個匿名檢舉"},{"start":8966.93,"end":8968.93,"text":"是不受理的"},{"start":8968.93,"end":8970.93,"text":"也分流了"},{"start":8970.93,"end":8972.93,"text":"可是我聽到教師第一線的回饋"},{"start":8972.93,"end":8974.93,"text":"教師團體還是說他們還是實際有"},{"start":8974.93,"end":8976.93,"text":"匿名檢舉的狀況喔"},{"start":8976.93,"end":8978.93,"text":"所以是不是溝通上有誤解"},{"start":8978.93,"end":8980.93,"text":"還是你的政策並沒有寫得"},{"start":8980.93,"end":8982.93,"text":"很完善"},{"start":8982.93,"end":8984.93,"text":"我想我們會跟地方政府收集相關"},{"start":8984.93,"end":8986.93,"text":"成案的狀況"},{"start":8986.93,"end":8988.93,"text":"因為上次也有委員提到嘛"},{"start":8988.93,"end":8990.93,"text":"小朋友在網路上教大家"},{"start":8990.93,"end":8992.93,"text":"老師不爽 可以就是"},{"start":8992.93,"end":8994.93,"text":"隨便檢舉他性評相關的"},{"start":8994.93,"end":8996.93,"text":"可是這個部分的網路"},{"start":8996.93,"end":8998.93,"text":"檢舉的方式也還是有"},{"start":8998.93,"end":9000.93,"text":"匿名的狀況啦"},{"start":9000.93,"end":9002.93,"text":"那這個部分到底有沒有去修正"},{"start":9002.93,"end":9004.93,"text":"可不可以朝這個方向"},{"start":9004.93,"end":9006.93,"text":"7月的時候能夠有這樣更具體的"},{"start":9006.93,"end":9008.93,"text":"我們一片再拉到我們的檢討分析裡面"},{"start":9008.93,"end":9010.93,"text":"我想老師的身心健康的權益保障"},{"start":9012.46,"end":9014.46,"text":"家庭教育的加強"},{"start":9014.46,"end":9016.46,"text":"是 離炫權利"},{"start":9016.46,"end":9018.46,"text":"能夠更落實"},{"start":9018.46,"end":9020.46,"text":"能夠有一個指引"},{"start":9020.46,"end":9022.46,"text":"甚至入法"},{"start":9022.87,"end":9024.87,"text":"行政減量"},{"start":9024.88,"end":9026.88,"text":"能不能入法"},{"start":9026.88,"end":9028.88,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":9027.83,"end":9029.83,"text":"您的態度是如何"},{"start":9029.5,"end":9031.5,"text":"跟我們報告就是說"},{"start":9031.5,"end":9033.5,"text":"法規面 作用法"},{"start":9033.5,"end":9035.5,"text":"基本上大概都是希望"},{"start":9035.5,"end":9037.5,"text":"讓他有些彈性來做調整"},{"start":9037.5,"end":9039.5,"text":"所以要不要入法這個事情"},{"start":9039.5,"end":9041.5,"text":"我們可以來評估研議"},{"start":9041.5,"end":9043.5,"text":"我希望你們要好好的具體的去研議"},{"start":9043.5,"end":9045.5,"text":"那是不是能夠隨著"},{"start":9045.5,"end":9047.5,"text":"這一段時間到7月15的時候"},{"start":9047.5,"end":9049.5,"text":"能夠有一個研議報告讓我們知道一下"},{"start":9050.21,"end":9052.21,"text":"7月15我們想知道你們的狀況"},{"start":9052.21,"end":9054.21,"text":"那另外我想請問一下"},{"start":9054.21,"end":9056.21,"text":"署長"},{"start":9056.99,"end":9058.99,"text":"署長在這一次"},{"start":9058.99,"end":9060.99,"text":"我們教育委員會"},{"start":9060.99,"end":9062.99,"text":"到日本考察"},{"start":9062.99,"end":9064.99,"text":"我必須坦白講你有幾個舉動"},{"start":9065.95,"end":9067.95,"text":"我很感動"},{"start":9067.76,"end":9069.76,"text":"我看著你跟我們一起"},{"start":9070.65,"end":9072.65,"text":"蹲在那邊 近距離的"},{"start":9072.65,"end":9074.65,"text":"接觸孩童 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1比3"},{"start":9347.19,"end":9349.19,"text":"對我們來說"},{"start":9349.19,"end":9351.19,"text":"有很大的差距"},{"start":9351.19,"end":9353.19,"text":"但是他們為什麼這麼的重視教育"},{"start":9353.19,"end":9355.19,"text":"我覺得我們實際去看"},{"start":9354.98,"end":9356.98,"text":"所以我也希望說"},{"start":9356.86,"end":9358.86,"text":"署長"},{"start":9358.86,"end":9360.86,"text":"包括不管是AI ICT"},{"start":9360.86,"end":9362.86,"text":"我們看到地線的狀況"},{"start":9362.86,"end":9364.86,"text":"然後我們也去拜訪了私校"},{"start":9363.98,"end":9365.98,"text":"剛剛那個是"},{"start":9365.31,"end":9367.31,"text":"不是私校"},{"start":9367.31,"end":9369.31,"text":"也拜訪了私校"},{"start":9369.31,"end":9371.31,"text":"還有營養午餐的一個辦法"},{"start":9371.31,"end":9373.31,"text":"是不是有機會你也要如實的"},{"start":9373.31,"end":9375.31,"text":"跟不管部長 次長"},{"start":9375.31,"end":9377.31,"text":"來轉達"},{"start":9377.31,"end":9379.31,"text":"跟過往我們所看到的文獻"},{"start":9379.31,"end":9381.31,"text":"我之前看到的文獻"},{"start":9381.31,"end":9383.31,"text":"基本上也都是疫情前的"},{"start":9383.31,"end":9385.31,"text":"有一段距離"},{"start":9385.26,"end":9387.26,"text":"那我們希望實際的教學"},{"start":9387.75,"end":9389.75,"text":"場域所遇到他們的狀況"},{"start":9389.75,"end":9391.75,"text":"能夠如實的來跟"},{"start":9391.75,"end":9393.75,"text":"次長 部長來反應"},{"start":9393.75,"end":9395.75,"text":"尤其原本張廖萬間次長要跟我們去"},{"start":9395.75,"end":9397.75,"text":"但是他因故"},{"start":9397.75,"end":9399.75,"text":"有請假 這部分希望你能夠"},{"start":9399.75,"end":9401.75,"text":"如實的轉達 讓他們知道"},{"start":9401.75,"end":9403.75,"text":"我們在營養午餐的推進上"},{"start":9403.75,"end":9405.75,"text":"包括我們一直在講的喔"},{"start":9405.75,"end":9407.75,"text":"營養師的制度"},{"start":9407.6,"end":9409.6,"text":"他們的營養師"},{"start":9409.54,"end":9411.54,"text":"是不是也跟我們不太一樣"},{"start":9412.29,"end":9414.29,"text":"就是說原來我們"},{"start":9414.29,"end":9416.29,"text":"認為日本可能有"},{"start":9416.29,"end":9418.29,"text":"依法用550比1"},{"start":9418.29,"end":9420.29,"text":"現場了解"},{"start":9420.29,"end":9422.29,"text":"比例上倒還是有"},{"start":9422.29,"end":9424.29,"text":"彈性 有一點彈性"},{"start":9424.29,"end":9426.29,"text":"但是委員可能稍微想要講到的是"},{"start":9426.29,"end":9428.29,"text":"營養教師這一塊"},{"start":9428.29,"end":9430.29,"text":"營養教師"},{"start":9430.29,"end":9432.29,"text":"他有雙證"},{"start":9432.29,"end":9434.29,"text":"因此他進行營養業務時"},{"start":9434.29,"end":9436.29,"text":"他因為還有教師的license"},{"start":9436.29,"end":9438.29,"text":"因此他在營養教育上"},{"start":9438.29,"end":9440.29,"text":"他是有這個權利的"},{"start":9440.29,"end":9442.29,"text":"營養教育他不是營養師喔"},{"start":9442.29,"end":9444.29,"text":"他只是另外一個證書而已"},{"start":9444.29,"end":9446.29,"text":"然後獲得營養教育的一個工作"},{"start":9446.29,"end":9448.29,"text":"權利的授予"},{"start":9448.29,"end":9450.29,"text":"那小朋友也多鼓勵他們吃"},{"start":9451.49,"end":9453.49,"text":"家長無法提供的"},{"start":9453.49,"end":9455.49,"text":"飲食內容"},{"start":9455.49,"end":9457.49,"text":"比如說他們就很堅持希望能夠提供魚類"},{"start":9458.85,"end":9460.85,"text":"因為學生回到家"},{"start":9460.85,"end":9462.85,"text":"不太會攝取魚類"},{"start":9462.75,"end":9464.75,"text":"那他們為了提供魚類"},{"start":9464.75,"end":9466.75,"text":"就會有魚刺的問題"},{"start":9466.75,"end":9468.75,"text":"他們還特別教國小第一年級的小朋友"},{"start":9468.75,"end":9470.75,"text":"要如何實用秋刀魚"},{"start":9470.75,"end":9472.75,"text":"拍攝影片"},{"start":9472.75,"end":9474.75,"text":"教學"},{"start":9474.14,"end":9476.14,"text":"所以這個部分都是我們教學環境上"},{"start":9476.14,"end":9478.14,"text":"我們在做食農教育也好"},{"start":9478.14,"end":9480.14,"text":"我們在做飲食禮儀的"},{"start":9480.14,"end":9482.14,"text":"介紹也好"},{"start":9482.14,"end":9484.14,"text":"這都是值得我們參考的"},{"start":9484.14,"end":9486.14,"text":"我想當下我也跟署長講"},{"start":9486.14,"end":9488.14,"text":"署長這個我也要希望你現場能夠承諾我"},{"start":9488.14,"end":9490.14,"text":"我們不斷的在講說"},{"start":9490.93,"end":9492.93,"text":"在實用營養午餐的前面"},{"start":9492.93,"end":9494.93,"text":"可不可以做一個"},{"start":9494.93,"end":9496.93,"text":"簡單的飲食教育"},{"start":9496.93,"end":9498.93,"text":"我們今天攝取多少蛋白"},{"start":9498.93,"end":9500.93,"text":"今天所吃的營養午餐"},{"start":9500.93,"end":9502.93,"text":"它的故事"},{"start":9502.93,"end":9504.93,"text":"它的原產地在哪裡"},{"start":9504.93,"end":9506.93,"text":"能夠做基本的廣播"},{"start":9509.14,"end":9511.14,"text":"分享"},{"start":9511.14,"end":9513.14,"text":"或者是同學上台講一下"},{"start":9513.14,"end":9515.14,"text":"一分鐘用餐"},{"start":9515.14,"end":9517.14,"text":"讓孩子知道他平常吃的東西的內容"},{"start":9517.14,"end":9519.14,"text":"學校也會"},{"start":9519.14,"end":9521.14,"text":"學生也會回到家裡跟家長分享"},{"start":9521.14,"end":9523.14,"text":"家長也會安心"},{"start":9523.14,"end":9525.14,"text":"營養午餐的內容他大概知道"},{"start":9525.14,"end":9527.14,"text":"這個不用花到預算"},{"start":9526.92,"end":9528.92,"text":"那我們可不可以做"},{"start":9528.58,"end":9530.58,"text":"署長"},{"start":9530.09,"end":9532.09,"text":"這因為"},{"start":9532.09,"end":9534.09,"text":"委員講了之後我們也去思考"},{"start":9534.09,"end":9536.09,"text":"他的運作的可行性"},{"start":9536.09,"end":9538.09,"text":"這會涉及到22縣市跟9萬個班"},{"start":9538.09,"end":9540.09,"text":"那我們再看看"},{"start":9540.09,"end":9542.09,"text":"怎麼樣可以讓老師"},{"start":9542.09,"end":9544.09,"text":"在行政不必加量"},{"start":9544.09,"end":9546.09,"text":"這個我要強調不要找老師"},{"start":9546.09,"end":9548.09,"text":"所以我們看到日本的狀況"},{"start":9548.09,"end":9550.09,"text":"他們是有廣播"},{"start":9550.09,"end":9552.09,"text":"廣播的聲音你一聽也知道是小朋友"},{"start":9552.09,"end":9554.09,"text":"再來當然"},{"start":9554.09,"end":9556.09,"text":"還有一個部分班長或者是"},{"start":9556.09,"end":9558.09,"text":"體育股長他們小朋友上台"},{"start":9558.09,"end":9560.09,"text":"分享"},{"start":9560.09,"end":9562.09,"text":"這也是訓練講話的機會"},{"start":9562.09,"end":9564.09,"text":"當然最直接的"},{"start":9564.09,"end":9566.09,"text":"也可以所謂的外散業者"},{"start":9566.09,"end":9568.09,"text":"來錄音廣播內容"},{"start":9568.09,"end":9570.09,"text":"然後來播放"},{"start":9570.09,"end":9572.09,"text":"這個也都不用去麻煩老師"},{"start":9572.09,"end":9574.09,"text":"所以我覺得沒有人力的問題"},{"start":9574.09,"end":9576.09,"text":"也沒有所謂的預算的問題"},{"start":9576.09,"end":9578.09,"text":"我們看如何落實所以在這一次"},{"start":9578.09,"end":9580.09,"text":"我們看到日本實際操作的狀況"},{"start":9580.09,"end":9582.09,"text":"我也希望我們要有所改變"},{"start":9582.09,"end":9584.09,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":9584.09,"end":9586.09,"text":"謝謝委員我們現在整理"},{"start":9586.09,"end":9588.09,"text":"會讓委員知道說"},{"start":9588.09,"end":9590.09,"text":"有一些經過探訪"},{"start":9590.09,"end":9592.09,"text":"詳細了解之後的改變"},{"start":9592.09,"end":9594.09,"text":"那當然也一定會跟班長"},{"start":9594.09,"end":9596.09,"text":"做完整的說明"},{"start":9596.09,"end":9598.09,"text":"一個月內給我相關資料"},{"start":9598.09,"end":9600.09,"text":"可以嗎 沒問題"},{"start":9600.09,"end":9602.09,"text":"羅志祥委員也有參加"},{"start":9602.09,"end":9604.09,"text":"我覺得大家都感覺非常有意義"},{"start":9604.09,"end":9606.09,"text":"也希望說實際帶回來"},{"start":9606.09,"end":9608.09,"text":"我們有所改變好不好"},{"start":9608.09,"end":9610.09,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9626.13,"end":9628.13,"text":"好謝謝我們下一位"},{"start":9628.13,"end":9630.13,"text":"有請羅志祥委員"},{"start":9641.74,"end":9643.74,"text":"有請彭署長跟朱次長"},{"start":9648.74,"end":9650.74,"text":"謝謝次長"},{"start":9651.34,"end":9653.34,"text":"委員好"},{"start":9652.56,"end":9654.56,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9654.53,"end":9656.53,"text":"我想先請教署長"},{"start":9657.26,"end":9661.26,"text":"在這邊我覺得我必須幫我們的召委羅廷瑋"},{"start":9661.77,"end":9663.77,"text":"幫他還一個公道"},{"start":9664.28,"end":9666.28,"text":"我先講幾件事情"},{"start":9666.44,"end":9668.44,"text":"我想請問我們次長"},{"start":9668.44,"end":9670.44,"text":"你知道"},{"start":9670.24,"end":9672.24,"text":"立法院各委員會"},{"start":9672.24,"end":9674.24,"text":"其實在會期當中考察"},{"start":9674.24,"end":9676.24,"text":"是很平常的事情"},{"start":9676.24,"end":9678.24,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9678.24,"end":9680.24,"text":"沒錯嘛 有分過出國考察"},{"start":9680.24,"end":9682.24,"text":"國內考察都有"},{"start":9682.24,"end":9684.24,"text":"對不對 不管是哪一個"},{"start":9684.24,"end":9686.24,"text":"政黨擔任召委考察都是"},{"start":9686.24,"end":9688.24,"text":"有的 國內的也有"},{"start":9688.79,"end":9690.79,"text":"這個出國的也有"},{"start":9690.74,"end":9692.74,"text":"那作為立法政策行程"},{"start":9692.74,"end":9694.74,"text":"你第一個"},{"start":9694.74,"end":9696.74,"text":"你現在要做實地的了解"},{"start":9696.74,"end":9698.74,"text":"包括國內的很多考察"},{"start":9698.74,"end":9700.74,"text":"你也包括要做"},{"start":9700.8,"end":9702.8,"text":"其他國家的經驗的"},{"start":9702.8,"end":9704.8,"text":"所謂的一個探求"},{"start":9704.8,"end":9706.8,"text":"追究國際的部分"},{"start":9707.28,"end":9709.28,"text":"那我今天真的非常非常遺憾"},{"start":9710.35,"end":9712.35,"text":"真的非常遺憾"},{"start":9712.24,"end":9718.24,"text":"羅廷瑋召委安排到日本的營養午餐的考察"},{"start":9718.24,"end":9720.24,"text":"我們非常感謝我們的署長"},{"start":9720.61,"end":9722.61,"text":"也有一起參與"},{"start":9722.77,"end":9724.77,"text":"這個考察"},{"start":9724.54,"end":9726.54,"text":"收獲勝風"},{"start":9726.54,"end":9728.54,"text":"待會我會一一來講"},{"start":9728.54,"end":9730.54,"text":"收獲勝風"},{"start":9729.17,"end":9731.17,"text":"但是卻在"},{"start":9730.89,"end":9732.89,"text":"我們民進黨委員"},{"start":9733.05,"end":9735.05,"text":"的攻擊之下"},{"start":9735.14,"end":9737.14,"text":"變成薪水小偷"},{"start":9737.14,"end":9739.14,"text":"第一件事我就要說"},{"start":9739.45,"end":9741.45,"text":"請問"},{"start":9741.45,"end":9743.45,"text":"我想請問次長或署長"},{"start":9743.01,"end":9745.01,"text":"這個日本的考察有拿到教育部的經費嗎"},{"start":9745.01,"end":9747.01,"text":"有用教育部的公費"},{"start":9747.01,"end":9749.01,"text":"來出國嗎"},{"start":9749.01,"end":9751.01,"text":"沒有"},{"start":9751.01,"end":9753.01,"text":"立法院的也沒有"},{"start":9753.84,"end":9755.84,"text":"羅廷瑋召委在"},{"start":9756.54,"end":9758.54,"text":"公佈今天"},{"start":9758.54,"end":9760.54,"text":"調查立委的"},{"start":9761.6,"end":9763.6,"text":"到日本考察的這個調查表"},{"start":9763.6,"end":9765.6,"text":"第一章發出去"},{"start":9765.6,"end":9767.6,"text":"上面就寫"},{"start":9767.6,"end":9769.6,"text":"所有的經費請委員治理"},{"start":9769.75,"end":9771.75,"text":"請委員自行負擔經費"},{"start":9772.71,"end":9774.71,"text":"包括機票住宿"},{"start":9774.71,"end":9776.71,"text":"甚至我相信署長您知道"},{"start":9778.04,"end":9780.04,"text":"我們到日本去吃"},{"start":9780.04,"end":9782.04,"text":"跟小朋友並桌吃的"},{"start":9782.04,"end":9784.04,"text":"營養午餐"},{"start":9783.66,"end":9785.66,"text":"請問我們吃的營養午餐"},{"start":9785.66,"end":9787.66,"text":"誰輸了錢"},{"start":9787.86,"end":9789.86,"text":"也是立委自己出了錢"},{"start":9790.69,"end":9792.69,"text":"羅廷瑋召委還堅持要付費"},{"start":9792.69,"end":9794.69,"text":"堅持要付費"},{"start":9794.69,"end":9796.69,"text":"就抱歉這個是我們到人家學校吃的"},{"start":9796.69,"end":9798.69,"text":"就按照他們的收費標準"},{"start":9798.69,"end":9800.69,"text":"我們所有委員就要出錢"},{"start":9800.69,"end":9802.69,"text":"就要付費"},{"start":9803.55,"end":9805.55,"text":"做到這個程度"},{"start":9805.55,"end":9807.55,"text":"民進黨開記者會說"},{"start":9807.57,"end":9809.57,"text":"這用公費考察"},{"start":9809.57,"end":9811.57,"text":"薪水小偷"},{"start":9811.97,"end":9813.97,"text":"我想請教民進黨要不要道歉"},{"start":9814.89,"end":9816.89,"text":"我們先不講出國考察民進黨也有啦"},{"start":9816.89,"end":9818.89,"text":"拿公費的都有啦"},{"start":9820.06,"end":9822.06,"text":"民進黨不要跟我講說你沒有拿公費的書"},{"start":9822.06,"end":9824.06,"text":"我考察過"},{"start":9824.9,"end":9826.9,"text":"你國內考察國外考察都有"},{"start":9826.9,"end":9828.9,"text":"拿公費的也都有"},{"start":9829.32,"end":9831.32,"text":"結果羅廷瑋委員從出發第一刻跟你講"},{"start":9831.32,"end":9833.32,"text":"這一場是自費"},{"start":9834.65,"end":9836.65,"text":"自費去考察"},{"start":9837.22,"end":9839.22,"text":"結果民進黨竟然可以開記者會"},{"start":9839.22,"end":9841.22,"text":"雙標到這種程度"},{"start":9841.6,"end":9843.6,"text":"我這邊必須還給羅廷瑋"},{"start":9843.6,"end":9845.6,"text":"一個公道"},{"start":9845.76,"end":9847.76,"text":"那接下來我就要講"},{"start":9847.76,"end":9849.76,"text":"我想請署長"},{"start":9850.28,"end":9852.28,"text":"我必須說啦"},{"start":9852.28,"end":9854.28,"text":"這次去我真的對署長"},{"start":9854.28,"end":9856.28,"text":"我真的非常感謝"},{"start":9856.28,"end":9858.28,"text":"表示崇高的敬意"},{"start":9858.39,"end":9860.39,"text":"因為整個過程我們看在眼裡"},{"start":9860.39,"end":9862.39,"text":"你非常認真在"},{"start":9862.85,"end":9864.85,"text":"向日本來取經"},{"start":9865.48,"end":9867.48,"text":"日本的營養午餐是專法吧"},{"start":9867.48,"end":9869.48,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9868.99,"end":9870.99,"text":"他們實施了非常久"},{"start":9870.99,"end":9872.99,"text":"二三十年以上了"},{"start":9874.51,"end":9876.51,"text":"有個參考的價"},{"start":9876.51,"end":9878.51,"text":"1954 1968"},{"start":9879.2,"end":9881.2,"text":"所以他們是"},{"start":9881.2,"end":9883.2,"text":"是最早來做營養午餐專法的"},{"start":9884.03,"end":9886.03,"text":"那第二個我們在實際考察過程當中"},{"start":9886.03,"end":9888.03,"text":"我有幾樣東西我印象很深刻"},{"start":9888.03,"end":9890.03,"text":"就剛剛羅廷瑋委員也講到了"},{"start":9890.03,"end":9892.03,"text":"我們有去跟日本的小學生"},{"start":9892.03,"end":9894.03,"text":"一起吃營養午餐"},{"start":9894.03,"end":9896.03,"text":"吃營養午餐"},{"start":9898.98,"end":9900.98,"text":"我想問一件事"},{"start":9900.98,"end":9902.98,"text":"有一件事我印象很深刻"},{"start":9902.98,"end":9904.98,"text":"請問我們台灣的營養午餐"},{"start":9904.98,"end":9906.98,"text":"通常是幾菜幾湯幾主食"},{"start":9906.98,"end":9908.98,"text":"原則上"},{"start":9908.98,"end":9910.98,"text":"三菜一湯"},{"start":9910.98,"end":9912.98,"text":"有時候有一水果"},{"start":9912.98,"end":9914.98,"text":"邊鄉地區還有"},{"start":9914.98,"end":9916.98,"text":"可能的點心"},{"start":9916.98,"end":9918.98,"text":"然後牛奶"},{"start":9918.98,"end":9920.98,"text":"要看情況嘛"},{"start":9920.98,"end":9922.98,"text":"那我想請問"},{"start":9922.98,"end":9924.98,"text":"去日本幾菜幾湯"},{"start":9924.98,"end":9926.98,"text":"我們這次去幾菜幾湯"},{"start":9926.98,"end":9928.98,"text":"一湯"},{"start":9928.98,"end":9930.98,"text":"然後有一個牛奶"},{"start":9930.98,"end":9932.98,"text":"那天剛好有水果"},{"start":9932.98,"end":9934.98,"text":"他說一年大概兩次水果"},{"start":9934.98,"end":9936.98,"text":"剛好比較少"},{"start":9936.98,"end":9938.98,"text":"那我要特別講就是說"},{"start":9940.34,"end":9942.34,"text":"這就是"},{"start":9942.34,"end":9944.34,"text":"我們有在現場問為什麼他們"},{"start":9944.34,"end":9946.34,"text":"所謂的菜的"},{"start":9945.96,"end":9947.96,"text":"總相比像這麼少"},{"start":9948.2,"end":9950.2,"text":"他怎麼回答我們"},{"start":9949.98,"end":9951.98,"text":"你要記得嗎"},{"start":9971.93,"end":9973.93,"text":"他們在做所謂的那個"},{"start":9973.93,"end":9975.93,"text":"營養午餐的滿意度的調查"},{"start":9977.31,"end":9979.31,"text":"在九粒區"},{"start":9979.31,"end":9981.31,"text":"幾乎是92 93%的學生"},{"start":9981.31,"end":9983.31,"text":"都是滿意的"},{"start":9983.31,"end":9985.31,"text":"現在署長你也看到"},{"start":9985.31,"end":9987.31,"text":"我們去那我至少我做的那一班"},{"start":9987.31,"end":9989.31,"text":"我們是分開的那一班"},{"start":9989.31,"end":9991.31,"text":"我有特別觀察"},{"start":9990.42,"end":9992.42,"text":"小朋友是吃得乾乾淨淨的"},{"start":9992.42,"end":9994.42,"text":"所有的飯跟菜"},{"start":9994.42,"end":9996.42,"text":"全部吃光光"},{"start":9996.42,"end":9998.42,"text":"那我也直接問他們好不好吃"},{"start":9998.42,"end":10000.42,"text":"他們就當場跟我講很好吃"},{"start":9999.49,"end":10001.49,"text":"是"},{"start":10000.65,"end":10002.65,"text":"我看到我們從日本的"},{"start":10002.65,"end":10004.65,"text":"還有"},{"start":10004.23,"end":10006.23,"text":"剛剛有講到秋刀魚的影片"},{"start":10006.23,"end":10008.23,"text":"他們在每個影食"},{"start":10008.23,"end":10010.23,"text":"他們做一些影片教小朋友幹嘛"},{"start":10010.88,"end":10012.88,"text":"教小朋友什麼"},{"start":10012.88,"end":10014.88,"text":"用影片教小朋友幹嘛"},{"start":10014.88,"end":10016.88,"text":"什麼撥刺"},{"start":10016.88,"end":10018.88,"text":"讓他在整個食的過程"},{"start":10018.88,"end":10020.88,"text":"享受到魚肉的鮮美"},{"start":10020.88,"end":10022.88,"text":"但是不會擔心到受到刺的影響"},{"start":10022.88,"end":10024.88,"text":"做了以後效果是什麼"},{"start":10024.88,"end":10026.88,"text":"這個滿意度也滿高"},{"start":10026.88,"end":10028.88,"text":"小朋友也是真的可以"},{"start":10028.88,"end":10030.88,"text":"因為影片而真的"},{"start":10030.88,"end":10032.88,"text":"享受到魚肉的食用過程"},{"start":10032.88,"end":10034.88,"text":"還有一個重點"},{"start":10034.88,"end":10036.88,"text":"他們的廚餘就變少了"},{"start":10036.88,"end":10038.88,"text":"相對的就會變少"},{"start":10038.88,"end":10040.88,"text":"所以就不會把魚刺挑出來"},{"start":10040.88,"end":10042.88,"text":"所以就不會留下太多的魚肉在廚餘裡面"},{"start":10042.88,"end":10044.88,"text":"為什麼從這些細節開始講"},{"start":10044.88,"end":10046.88,"text":"我就要講"},{"start":10046.88,"end":10048.88,"text":"今天我去日本考察營養午餐"},{"start":10048.88,"end":10050.88,"text":"我特別感受到一個很強烈的東西"},{"start":10050.88,"end":10052.88,"text":"就是"},{"start":10053.06,"end":10055.06,"text":"日本的營養午餐"},{"start":10055.06,"end":10057.06,"text":"他不是單純把它當成所謂的"},{"start":10057.06,"end":10059.06,"text":"社會福利或是照顧"},{"start":10059.34,"end":10061.34,"text":"他把它當成幾個重點"},{"start":10061.34,"end":10063.34,"text":"第一個飲食教育"},{"start":10063.34,"end":10065.34,"text":"第二個健康教育"},{"start":10065.34,"end":10067.34,"text":"他被倡導說"},{"start":10067.34,"end":10069.34,"text":"糖尿病要從小學的營養午餐開始就交集"},{"start":10069.34,"end":10071.34,"text":"就是要從飲食當中"},{"start":10071.34,"end":10073.34,"text":"來去防治各種慢性病"},{"start":10074.65,"end":10076.65,"text":"這次的考察"},{"start":10076.65,"end":10078.65,"text":"我們幾乎是從早"},{"start":10078.65,"end":10080.65,"text":"然後到晚"},{"start":10080.65,"end":10082.65,"text":"就在不斷的再去跟日本的"},{"start":10082.65,"end":10084.65,"text":"各個單位來交流"},{"start":10084.65,"end":10086.65,"text":"也包括數學教育啦"},{"start":10086.65,"end":10088.65,"text":"也包括說今天營養午餐資訊教育"},{"start":10088.65,"end":10090.65,"text":"都有"},{"start":10090.76,"end":10092.76,"text":"這是一個非常有意義的一個"},{"start":10093.77,"end":10095.77,"text":"國外的考察"},{"start":10095.59,"end":10097.59,"text":"那我就覺得說今天"},{"start":10097.59,"end":10099.59,"text":"自己受益甚豐"},{"start":10099.59,"end":10101.59,"text":"所以我必須在這邊也要透過這個質詢來告訴大家"},{"start":10101.59,"end":10103.59,"text":"我們台灣既然要討論營養午餐的專法"},{"start":10103.59,"end":10105.59,"text":"那當然要跟今天營養午餐"},{"start":10105.59,"end":10107.59,"text":"法已經行之有年的日本"},{"start":10110.34,"end":10112.34,"text":"來去參考他們立法的經驗"},{"start":10112.34,"end":10114.34,"text":"這絕對是今天"},{"start":10114.34,"end":10116.34,"text":"有一個有品質立法應該做的事情"},{"start":10116.34,"end":10118.34,"text":"這我必須給羅庭偉委員一個"},{"start":10118.34,"end":10120.34,"text":"還他一個公道"},{"start":10120.34,"end":10122.34,"text":"那下一個我想請教一下"},{"start":10122.34,"end":10124.34,"text":"我們的次長"},{"start":10125.88,"end":10127.88,"text":"如果大人害怕小孩"},{"start":10127.88,"end":10129.88,"text":"這世界就完蛋了"},{"start":10130.2,"end":10132.2,"text":"請問這句話出處你知道是哪裡嗎"},{"start":10132.2,"end":10134.2,"text":"鐵拳教育"},{"start":10134.2,"end":10136.2,"text":"我剛剛看質詢說"},{"start":10136.2,"end":10138.2,"text":"你沒有看鐵拳教育"},{"start":10138.2,"end":10140.2,"text":"因為十個小時"},{"start":10140.2,"end":10142.2,"text":"我會抽空來看"},{"start":10142.2,"end":10144.2,"text":"你要不要看我覺得這一點是尊重次長的判斷"},{"start":10144.2,"end":10146.2,"text":"但我要跟你講就是說"},{"start":10146.2,"end":10148.2,"text":"基本上"},{"start":10149.03,"end":10151.03,"text":"我們現在老師有很多恐懼"},{"start":10151.03,"end":10153.03,"text":"你知道吧"},{"start":10153.02,"end":10155.02,"text":"有很多恐懼"},{"start":10155.02,"end":10157.02,"text":"恐懼"},{"start":10156.68,"end":10158.68,"text":"所謂的濫術"},{"start":10158.77,"end":10160.77,"text":"恐懼所謂的"},{"start":10160.58,"end":10162.58,"text":"濫用檢舉"},{"start":10162.21,"end":10164.21,"text":"恐懼網報"},{"start":10164.14,"end":10166.14,"text":"恐懼校內的一些霸凌"},{"start":10167.34,"end":10169.34,"text":"恐懼一些所謂的少年犯"},{"start":10169.34,"end":10171.34,"text":"運用所謂的少年保護"},{"start":10171.34,"end":10173.34,"text":"來去欺壓學生"},{"start":10175.53,"end":10177.53,"text":"當老師恐懼教育環境的時候"},{"start":10179.56,"end":10181.56,"text":"市場覺得受害者是老師"},{"start":10181.56,"end":10183.56,"text":"而已嗎"},{"start":10183.24,"end":10185.24,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":10185.24,"end":10187.24,"text":"不管是老師或學生"},{"start":10187.24,"end":10189.24,"text":"如果校園讓天師生都感到恐懼"},{"start":10189.24,"end":10191.24,"text":"這是我們必須要很嚴肅面對的問題"},{"start":10191.24,"end":10193.24,"text":"沒錯"},{"start":10193.24,"end":10195.24,"text":"我告訴你"},{"start":10194.02,"end":10196.02,"text":"多到老師都恐懼教育現場環境"},{"start":10197.3,"end":10199.3,"text":"這個世界就完了"},{"start":10199.25,"end":10201.25,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":10200.45,"end":10202.45,"text":"受害的不只是老師"},{"start":10202.45,"end":10204.45,"text":"受害的包括學生的"},{"start":10204.45,"end":10206.45,"text":"受教權"},{"start":10206.45,"end":10208.45,"text":"受害的是今天老師如果沒有"},{"start":10208.45,"end":10210.45,"text":"辦法好好教育的話"},{"start":10210.45,"end":10212.45,"text":"國家也不會有未來"},{"start":10212.28,"end":10214.28,"text":"為什麼今天"},{"start":10214.28,"end":10216.28,"text":"雖然次長沒有看過鐵拳教育"},{"start":10216.28,"end":10218.28,"text":"裡面當然有很多戲劇化的手法"},{"start":10218.28,"end":10220.28,"text":"那是另外的問題"},{"start":10220.28,"end":10222.28,"text":"但是他為什麼引起這麼大的共鳴"},{"start":10222.28,"end":10224.28,"text":"次長你知道嗎"},{"start":10224.01,"end":10226.01,"text":"我是有看到一些相關的評論"},{"start":10226.01,"end":10228.01,"text":"主要是"},{"start":10228.01,"end":10230.01,"text":"某種程度是來自於"},{"start":10230.01,"end":10232.01,"text":"教育現場"},{"start":10232.01,"end":10234.01,"text":"一些觀察跟反應"},{"start":10234.01,"end":10236.01,"text":"就是這個部分"},{"start":10236.01,"end":10238.01,"text":"可能切合現在他們"},{"start":10238.01,"end":10240.01,"text":"我跟次長說"},{"start":10241.25,"end":10243.25,"text":"裡面欺負啊"},{"start":10243.55,"end":10245.55,"text":"完完全全大家沒有任何陌生"},{"start":10246.76,"end":10248.76,"text":"全部發生在教育現場"},{"start":10248.76,"end":10250.76,"text":"不只南韓獨有"},{"start":10250.76,"end":10252.76,"text":"台灣也是啊"},{"start":10252.54,"end":10254.54,"text":"其中一集講國會議員的"},{"start":10254.54,"end":10256.54,"text":"兒子仗著父親的勢力"},{"start":10256.54,"end":10258.54,"text":"大齡學校同學"},{"start":10259.45,"end":10261.45,"text":"那也有少年犯仗著法律的保護"},{"start":10261.45,"end":10263.45,"text":"在校園橫行霸道"},{"start":10264.91,"end":10266.91,"text":"公然挑釁還傷害"},{"start":10266.91,"end":10268.91,"text":"惡毒傷害被害者家屬"},{"start":10268.91,"end":10270.91,"text":"很多人看到就想到"},{"start":10270.91,"end":10272.91,"text":"2023年新北校園的戈井案"},{"start":10274.35,"end":10276.35,"text":"毒品現在侵入校園的嚴重性與日俱增"},{"start":10278.68,"end":10280.68,"text":"大家看到裡面所有的一些"},{"start":10281.75,"end":10283.75,"text":"影劇的情節"},{"start":10283.75,"end":10285.75,"text":"跟教育現場幾乎是一模一樣"},{"start":10286.29,"end":10288.29,"text":"這才會產生強大的共鳴"},{"start":10288.74,"end":10290.74,"text":"我再講一集我覺得"},{"start":10291,"end":10293,"text":"更是幾乎百分之百命中"},{"start":10294.17,"end":10296.17,"text":"他有一集講恐龍家長如何濫用檢舉制度"},{"start":10296.17,"end":10298.17,"text":"長期壓迫老師"},{"start":10299.86,"end":10301.86,"text":"市長你知道這在台灣也發生過一模一樣的事吧"},{"start":10303.98,"end":10305.98,"text":"您知道吧"},{"start":10305.98,"end":10307.98,"text":"有看到有類似的評論跟建議"},{"start":10307.98,"end":10309.98,"text":"不是類似的評論跟建議"},{"start":10309.98,"end":10311.98,"text":"市長您是教育部的官員"},{"start":10314.86,"end":10316.86,"text":"你是學生的後盾你是老師的後盾"},{"start":10316.86,"end":10318.86,"text":"你是教育現場必須走出這種所謂"},{"start":10318.86,"end":10320.86,"text":"惡質霸凌之風"},{"start":10323.18,"end":10325.18,"text":"的一個最強大的後盾"},{"start":10326.49,"end":10328.49,"text":"媒體有報導"},{"start":10328.49,"end":10330.49,"text":"有一位教學20年在台南市國中"},{"start":10330.49,"end":10332.49,"text":"任教的謝姓老師"},{"start":10333.43,"end":10335.43,"text":"2024年4月因為關心學生的學習狀況"},{"start":10335.43,"end":10337.43,"text":"在聯絡部寫下"},{"start":10339.28,"end":10341.28,"text":"數學是不是練習較少"},{"start":10341.28,"end":10343.28,"text":"寫下這句話"},{"start":10345.22,"end":10347.22,"text":"引發家長強烈反彈"},{"start":10348.19,"end":10350.19,"text":"家長指控"},{"start":10349.85,"end":10351.85,"text":"老師的一句話會摧毀孩子的生命"},{"start":10355.06,"end":10357.06,"text":"然後投訴到教育局"},{"start":10358.15,"end":10360.15,"text":"接著擴大成40多項投訴"},{"start":10361.91,"end":10363.91,"text":"別人他午休時提醒學生"},{"start":10363.91,"end":10365.91,"text":"不要關燈"},{"start":10365.91,"end":10367.91,"text":"練習寫練習卷"},{"start":10367.91,"end":10369.91,"text":"要保護眼睛"},{"start":10369.66,"end":10371.66,"text":"也變成說是侵害學生的權益"},{"start":10371.66,"end":10373.66,"text":"甚至3、4年前的"},{"start":10373.66,"end":10375.66,"text":"臉書貼文"},{"start":10375.66,"end":10377.66,"text":"都被翻出來檢舉"},{"start":10378.36,"end":10380.36,"text":"2024年8月"},{"start":10380.36,"end":10382.36,"text":"校事會議調查結果"},{"start":10382.36,"end":10384.36,"text":"認定40多項投訴均無違規"},{"start":10385.1,"end":10387.1,"text":"家長還是持續啊"},{"start":10387.1,"end":10389.1,"text":"持續繼續濫述啊"},{"start":10389.1,"end":10391.1,"text":"然後要求逐項說明"},{"start":10391.1,"end":10393.1,"text":"投訴為什麼不成立"},{"start":10392.88,"end":10394.88,"text":"在調查過程有無瑕疵"},{"start":10394.88,"end":10396.88,"text":"在沒有心事證的情況之下"},{"start":10396.88,"end":10398.88,"text":"同年12月"},{"start":10398.88,"end":10400.88,"text":"原本調查沒有任何違規的報告"},{"start":10400.88,"end":10402.88,"text":"改成4項成立"},{"start":10402.88,"end":10404.88,"text":"老師難以接受問為什麼結果不同"},{"start":10404.88,"end":10406.88,"text":"就調查委員跟他講"},{"start":10406.88,"end":10408.88,"text":"你被投訴這麼多項"},{"start":10408.88,"end":10410.88,"text":"如果一項都沒有成立"},{"start":10410.75,"end":10412.75,"text":"家長會覺得我們只是"},{"start":10413.45,"end":10415.45,"text":"在 幹嘛"},{"start":10415.1,"end":10417.1,"text":"暴斃老師啊"},{"start":10417.58,"end":10419.58,"text":"因此還被學校"},{"start":10419.58,"end":10421.58,"text":"計生屆一次考機打儀等考機獎金減半"},{"start":10421.58,"end":10423.58,"text":"然後被列為追蹤名單"},{"start":10423.58,"end":10425.58,"text":"撰寫5000字報告"},{"start":10425.58,"end":10427.58,"text":"參加4小時"},{"start":10427.58,"end":10429.58,"text":"演習"},{"start":10428.65,"end":10430.65,"text":"最後訴願成功"},{"start":10430.65,"end":10432.65,"text":"經歷8個月的投訴調查"},{"start":10432.65,"end":10434.65,"text":"4個月的考核會審查"},{"start":10434.65,"end":10436.65,"text":"到10個月的訴訟"},{"start":10436.65,"end":10438.65,"text":"2年"},{"start":10438.65,"end":10440.65,"text":"漫長程序"},{"start":10440.65,"end":10442.65,"text":"折磨到身心俱疲"},{"start":10444.04,"end":10446.04,"text":"最後他已經不知該如何重返校園了"},{"start":10449.81,"end":10451.81,"text":"這位老師"},{"start":10451.58,"end":10453.58,"text":"他撐過了這場磨爛"},{"start":10454.28,"end":10456.28,"text":"但是不像劇中的老師"},{"start":10457.47,"end":10459.47,"text":"他今天幾乎撐不下去"},{"start":10459.47,"end":10461.47,"text":"為什麼 機會一模一樣"},{"start":10461.47,"end":10463.47,"text":"如果你去看那一集你會發現"},{"start":10463.47,"end":10465.47,"text":"一模一樣 完全一樣"},{"start":10465.8,"end":10467.8,"text":"他為什麼形成強大的共鳴"},{"start":10467.8,"end":10469.8,"text":"就是大家擔憂的是我們教育現場"},{"start":10470.73,"end":10472.73,"text":"對老師而言"},{"start":10473.36,"end":10475.36,"text":"已經是惡化到今天直教非常困難了"},{"start":10478.49,"end":10480.49,"text":"在這種情況之下我們教育部"},{"start":10481.99,"end":10483.99,"text":"非常有責任"},{"start":10483.74,"end":10485.74,"text":"要去解決這個問題"},{"start":10485.95,"end":10487.95,"text":"那為什麼要舉這個例子"},{"start":10487.95,"end":10489.95,"text":"我要告訴 現在校事會議"},{"start":10489.95,"end":10491.95,"text":"就是有濫訴的情況 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修法"},{"start":11884.13,"end":11886.13,"text":"我們有根據第十一條說"},{"start":11886.13,"end":11888.13,"text":"要逐年來修訂"},{"start":11888.13,"end":11890.13,"text":"所以當時原教經費的比例"},{"start":11890.13,"end":11892.13,"text":"把1.2調到了1.9"},{"start":11892.13,"end":11894.13,"text":"可是現在又超過了12年"},{"start":11894.13,"end":11896.13,"text":"我們原住民的人口數"},{"start":11896.13,"end":11898.13,"text":"也來到了2.7%"},{"start":11898.13,"end":11900.13,"text":"又受到財化法"},{"start":11900.13,"end":11902.13,"text":"撥給地方的影響"},{"start":11902.13,"end":11904.13,"text":"所以在這個部分"},{"start":11904.13,"end":11906.13,"text":"我有不斷的要求說"},{"start":11906.13,"end":11908.13,"text":"我們應該要來討論"},{"start":11908.13,"end":11910.13,"text":"如何把原住民教育經費"},{"start":11910.13,"end":11912.13,"text":"要因應這些修法"},{"start":11912.13,"end":11914.13,"text":"跟我們的整個物價波動"},{"start":11914.13,"end":11916.13,"text":"要去做一個"},{"start":11916.13,"end":11918.13,"text":"調整"},{"start":11918.13,"end":11920.13,"text":"也獲得大家的回應"},{"start":11920.13,"end":11922.13,"text":"那我的看法是這樣子"},{"start":11922.13,"end":11924.13,"text":"因為如果我們要去"},{"start":11924.13,"end":11926.13,"text":"回到我們應該有的水準"},{"start":11926.13,"end":11928.13,"text":"我是認為教育部"},{"start":11928.13,"end":11930.13,"text":"跟原民會七比三的分擔"},{"start":11930.13,"end":11932.13,"text":"教育部恐怕要增加八億"},{"start":11932.13,"end":11934.13,"text":"原民會要增加四億"},{"start":11934.13,"end":11936.13,"text":"那到底教育部增加的八億"},{"start":11936.13,"end":11938.13,"text":"要做什麼"},{"start":11938.13,"end":11940.13,"text":"我的看法是這樣"},{"start":11940.13,"end":11942.13,"text":"我希望原住民的"},{"start":11942.13,"end":11944.13,"text":"學雜費全免"},{"start":11944.13,"end":11946.13,"text":"學雜費全免"},{"start":11946.13,"end":11948.13,"text":"大專生全免"},{"start":11948.13,"end":11950.13,"text":"為什麼我這樣講"},{"start":11950.13,"end":11952.13,"text":"因為兩年前賴清德總統"},{"start":11952.13,"end":11954.13,"text":"宣布私立大專高中的"},{"start":11954.13,"end":11956.13,"text":"這個學費的減免"},{"start":11957.23,"end":11959.23,"text":"一年是3.5萬"},{"start":11959.23,"end":11961.23,"text":"一個學年"},{"start":11961.23,"end":11963.23,"text":"然後呢經濟弱勢的學生"},{"start":11963.23,"end":11965.23,"text":"又可以加碼1.5萬"},{"start":11965.23,"end":11967.23,"text":"也就是變成5萬"},{"start":11967.23,"end":11969.23,"text":"可是市長我有不斷的訴求"},{"start":11969.23,"end":11971.23,"text":"原住民的學生"},{"start":11971.23,"end":11973.23,"text":"他是只能折一"},{"start":11973.23,"end":11975.23,"text":"所以呢他還是"},{"start":11975.23,"end":11977.23,"text":"維持他原來的原住民的"},{"start":11977.23,"end":11979.23,"text":"這個補助"},{"start":11979.23,"end":11981.23,"text":"而且原住民的弱勢學生"},{"start":11981.23,"end":11983.23,"text":"也是只能折一"},{"start":11983.23,"end":11985.23,"text":"不能重複"},{"start":11985.23,"end":11987.23,"text":"為什麼我特別這樣講"},{"start":11987.23,"end":11989.23,"text":"古有民訓不換寡換不均"},{"start":11989.23,"end":11991.23,"text":"明明原住民的"},{"start":11991.23,"end":11993.23,"text":"大學生跟一般的"},{"start":11993.23,"end":11995.23,"text":"大學生出債學率"},{"start":11995.23,"end":11997.23,"text":"是相差38.5%"},{"start":11998.92,"end":12000.92,"text":"我們現在不細究是什麼造成"},{"start":12000.92,"end":12002.92,"text":"但是就是有這麼大的"},{"start":12002.92,"end":12004.92,"text":"落差的原住民學生"},{"start":12004.92,"end":12006.92,"text":"是離開大學的"},{"start":12006.57,"end":12008.57,"text":"他讀不下去的"},{"start":12008.54,"end":12010.54,"text":"所以這個部分我們本來是要彌平"},{"start":12010.54,"end":12012.54,"text":"結果呢那個政策"},{"start":12012.54,"end":12014.54,"text":"一上來"},{"start":12014.89,"end":12016.89,"text":"又把那個Gap又拉大"},{"start":12017.18,"end":12019.18,"text":"那我們還來不及觀察"},{"start":12019.18,"end":12021.18,"text":"他未來造成的效應是什麼"},{"start":12021.18,"end":12023.18,"text":"但是我一直強調"},{"start":12023.18,"end":12025.18,"text":"我們應該就要來做這個部分"},{"start":12025.18,"end":12027.18,"text":"不曉得市長您的看法如何"},{"start":12027.18,"end":12029.18,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":12029.18,"end":12031.18,"text":"確實委員先前提醒我們"},{"start":12031.18,"end":12033.18,"text":"在要注意這一塊就是說在"},{"start":12033.18,"end":12035.18,"text":"弱勢的學生之外"},{"start":12035.18,"end":12037.18,"text":"跟原住民之間的補助"},{"start":12037.18,"end":12039.18,"text":"不要也是互相互斥的"},{"start":12039.18,"end":12041.18,"text":"有沒有可能互相搭配"},{"start":12041.18,"end":12043.18,"text":"來協助經濟弱勢的"},{"start":12043.18,"end":12045.18,"text":"原住民學生這一塊"},{"start":12045.18,"end":12047.18,"text":"給他一些照顧"},{"start":12047.18,"end":12049.18,"text":"所以高雅市也有在做一些評估"},{"start":12049.18,"end":12051.18,"text":"看看是不是在我們原民補助"},{"start":12051.18,"end":12053.18,"text":"是比較屬於齊頭式的"},{"start":12053.18,"end":12055.18,"text":"那針對經濟弱勢"},{"start":12055.18,"end":12057.18,"text":"這邊是不是可以做個協助"},{"start":12057.18,"end":12059.18,"text":"所以我想這個部分"},{"start":12059.18,"end":12061.18,"text":"要增加就是我個人是"},{"start":12061.18,"end":12063.18,"text":"強調啦就是原住民學生"},{"start":12063.18,"end":12065.18,"text":"學雜費就全免"},{"start":12065.18,"end":12067.18,"text":"因為你本來原教經費就要增加"},{"start":12067.18,"end":12069.18,"text":"我希望這一塊是必須"},{"start":12069.18,"end":12071.18,"text":"要做那另外就是"},{"start":12071.18,"end":12073.18,"text":"關鍵人才的培育"},{"start":12073.18,"end":12075.18,"text":"這個部分我非常的高興"},{"start":12075.18,"end":12077.18,"text":"我講給許多人聽他們也很期待"},{"start":12077.18,"end":12079.18,"text":"十年之後應該會看到"},{"start":12079.18,"end":12081.18,"text":"不一樣的一個原住民的"},{"start":12081.18,"end":12083.18,"text":"教育高教的狀況"},{"start":12083.18,"end":12085.18,"text":"所以這個部分我還是強烈的訴求"},{"start":12085.18,"end":12087.18,"text":"那最後一個問題"},{"start":12087.18,"end":12089.18,"text":"就是我很關心"},{"start":12089.18,"end":12091.18,"text":"我們原住民學生的問題"},{"start":12091.18,"end":12093.18,"text":"那我有一種學生"},{"start":12093.18,"end":12095.18,"text":"要講給市長聽就是大五生"},{"start":12096.43,"end":12098.43,"text":"原住民呢自從"},{"start":12098.43,"end":12100.43,"text":"要去修所謂的"},{"start":12100.43,"end":12102.43,"text":"教育學程他是完全不可能"},{"start":12102.43,"end":12104.43,"text":"四年畢業"},{"start":12104.43,"end":12106.43,"text":"還有雙修的"},{"start":12106.43,"end":12108.43,"text":"又加上很多的原住民學生"},{"start":12108.43,"end":12110.43,"text":"還要加足語認證"},{"start":12110.43,"end":12112.43,"text":"種種的因素"},{"start":12112.43,"end":12114.43,"text":"我要講的是說"},{"start":12113.83,"end":12115.83,"text":"如果他是因為優秀的學生"},{"start":12117.25,"end":12119.25,"text":"結果遇到被迫"},{"start":12119.25,"end":12121.25,"text":"要有第五年我希望"},{"start":12121.25,"end":12123.25,"text":"這個大五的部分學雜費的減免"},{"start":12123.25,"end":12125.25,"text":"要繼續的比照前四年"},{"start":12125.25,"end":12127.25,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":12127.25,"end":12129.25,"text":"我想我們會來了解"},{"start":12129.25,"end":12131.25,"text":"這個狀況"},{"start":12131.25,"end":12133.25,"text":"只要學生是一個正常的學習"},{"start":12133.25,"end":12135.25,"text":"他願意去學政府就應該給他支持"},{"start":12135.25,"end":12137.25,"text":"那我跟那個市長說"},{"start":12137.25,"end":12139.25,"text":"其實這個議題在昨天的"},{"start":12139.25,"end":12141.25,"text":"校正委員會"},{"start":12141.25,"end":12143.25,"text":"有被提出來"},{"start":12143.25,"end":12145.25,"text":"那沒有得到好的答案"},{"start":12145.25,"end":12147.25,"text":"所以我今天特別的提出來"},{"start":12147.25,"end":12149.25,"text":"提高學生的畢業率"},{"start":12149.25,"end":12151.25,"text":"不能夠去懲罰優秀的學生"},{"start":12151.25,"end":12153.25,"text":"而且他是有條件的"},{"start":12153.25,"end":12155.25,"text":"他不是所有的"},{"start":12155.25,"end":12157.25,"text":"我希望趕快來研議"},{"start":12157.25,"end":12159.25,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":12159.25,"end":12161.25,"text":"沒問題這點我們來支持這樣的同學"},{"start":12161.25,"end":12163.25,"text":"那另外就是知識中心的部分"},{"start":12163.25,"end":12165.25,"text":"我也希望放在原教經費增加裡面"},{"start":12165.25,"end":12167.25,"text":"我希望他變成一個常態性的"},{"start":12167.25,"end":12169.25,"text":"我希望他變成一個常態性的"},{"start":12169.25,"end":12171.25,"text":"我希望他變成一個常態性的"},{"start":12171.25,"end":12173.25,"text":"我希望他變成一個常態性的"},{"start":12171.62,"end":12173.62,"text":"目前很少族群"},{"start":12173.62,"end":12175.62,"text":"有完成知識中心"},{"start":12175.62,"end":12177.62,"text":"知識族群的知識"},{"start":12177.62,"end":12179.62,"text":"而且我認為"},{"start":12180.9,"end":12182.9,"text":"原住民的各族群的知識"},{"start":12182.9,"end":12184.9,"text":"你應該要搭配"},{"start":12184.9,"end":12186.9,"text":"課程教材啊"},{"start":12186.9,"end":12188.9,"text":"這兩個不能脫鉤啊"},{"start":12188.9,"end":12190.9,"text":"因為原住民的知識是在跟學生"},{"start":12190.9,"end":12192.9,"text":"跟我們的時間在賽跑"},{"start":12192.9,"end":12194.9,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":12194.9,"end":12196.9,"text":"我希望把他變成一個常態性的計畫"},{"start":12196.9,"end":12198.9,"text":"也能夠納入到"},{"start":12198.9,"end":12200.9,"text":"我們原住民教育的中長程計畫"},{"start":12200.9,"end":12202.9,"text":"讓他穩定的"},{"start":12202.9,"end":12204.9,"text":"完成所有族群"},{"start":12204.9,"end":12206.9,"text":"他的知識的採集"},{"start":12206.9,"end":12208.9,"text":"以及轉化為課程教材"},{"start":12208.9,"end":12210.9,"text":"這個是我們必然要走的路"},{"start":12210.9,"end":12212.9,"text":"而且非常的辛苦好不好"},{"start":12212.9,"end":12214.9,"text":"好"},{"start":12214.9,"end":12216.9,"text":"我們這個發展計畫"},{"start":12216.9,"end":12218.9,"text":"也有跟考選部原民會合作"},{"start":12218.9,"end":12220.9,"text":"這個知識中心我如果一下沒做"},{"start":12220.9,"end":12222.9,"text":"原民會有在處理"},{"start":12222.9,"end":12224.9,"text":"我會跟他合作"},{"start":12224.9,"end":12226.9,"text":"我很高興今天也有排午餐"},{"start":12226.9,"end":12228.9,"text":"但是午餐22個縣市"},{"start":12228.9,"end":12230.9,"text":"已經全面了"},{"start":12230.9,"end":12232.9,"text":"但是我只有一個以前遺留下來的問題"},{"start":12233.71,"end":12235.71,"text":"可能次長知道或不知道"},{"start":12235.71,"end":12237.71,"text":"很多學校的老師長年"},{"start":12237.71,"end":12239.71,"text":"針對那些付不出學雜費"},{"start":12239.71,"end":12241.71,"text":"午餐費學校帶說帶辦費"},{"start":12241.71,"end":12243.71,"text":"變呆帳啊"},{"start":12244.05,"end":12246.05,"text":"最後都變成是老師導師"},{"start":12246.05,"end":12248.05,"text":"直接吸收"},{"start":12248.05,"end":12250.05,"text":"所以我也希望說"},{"start":12250.05,"end":12252.05,"text":"雖然我們未來午餐會全免"},{"start":12252.05,"end":12254.05,"text":"但是還是有學雜費"},{"start":12254.05,"end":12256.05,"text":"帶說帶辦費的呆帳"},{"start":12256.05,"end":12258.05,"text":"我希望去研議一個合理"},{"start":12258.05,"end":12260.05,"text":"可以避免轉嫁"},{"start":12260.05,"end":12262.05,"text":"這個給第一線導師的一個精進做法"},{"start":12262.05,"end":12264.05,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":12263.59,"end":12265.59,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12265.59,"end":12267.59,"text":"因為我們過去針對弱勢學生"},{"start":12267.59,"end":12269.59,"text":"是有一些21億的補助"},{"start":12269.59,"end":12271.59,"text":"所以我們來瞭解一下狀況是怎樣"},{"start":12271.59,"end":12273.59,"text":"不要造成老師的負擔"},{"start":12273.59,"end":12275.59,"text":"不要造成學校或者是老師的負擔"},{"start":12275.59,"end":12277.59,"text":"現在我們的老師已經很珍貴了"},{"start":12277.59,"end":12279.59,"text":"我們已經是要想方設法"},{"start":12281.75,"end":12283.75,"text":"回復我們老師的尊嚴"},{"start":12283.75,"end":12285.75,"text":"提升他們的待遇"},{"start":12285.75,"end":12287.75,"text":"改善他們的一個環境"},{"start":12287.75,"end":12289.75,"text":"讓我們的老師能夠安心的培育"},{"start":12289.75,"end":12291.75,"text":"我們國家棟樑好不好"},{"start":12291.75,"end":12293.75,"text":"謝謝市長謝謝署長"},{"start":12293.75,"end":12295.75,"text":"謝謝召委主席"},{"start":12297.92,"end":12299.92,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":12299.84,"end":12301.84,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12306.83,"end":12308.83,"text":"下一位議員之委員"},{"start":12321.7,"end":12323.7,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請次長"},{"start":12324.62,"end":12326.62,"text":"麻煩請次長"},{"start":12329.25,"end":12331.25,"text":"館委好"},{"start":12331.25,"end":12333.25,"text":"我相信次長剛剛早上你到教育文化委員會的時候"},{"start":12333.25,"end":12335.25,"text":"你應該看到外面有一整排的記者"},{"start":12335.25,"end":12337.25,"text":"是"},{"start":12337.25,"end":12339.25,"text":"我們教育文化委員會何時有那麼多記者過"},{"start":12340.05,"end":12342.05,"text":"那為什麼呢"},{"start":12342.05,"end":12344.05,"text":"因為現在教育的議題是全國關注的議題"},{"start":12344.05,"end":12346.05,"text":"大家都很期待"},{"start":12346.05,"end":12348.05,"text":"來到這邊碰到教育部長"},{"start":12348.05,"end":12350.05,"text":"鄭應耀先生"},{"start":12350.05,"end":12352.05,"text":"詢問他現在教育的狀況"},{"start":12352.05,"end":12354.05,"text":"但是很遺憾的"},{"start":12354.05,"end":12356.05,"text":"今天我們羅廷瑋召委"},{"start":12356.05,"end":12358.05,"text":"有關於教育部的法案"},{"start":12358.05,"end":12360.05,"text":"進行詢答"},{"start":12360.05,"end":12362.05,"text":"而且大家那麼關心教育現在所面臨到的問題"},{"start":12362.05,"end":12364.05,"text":"現在已經是全國關注"},{"start":12364.05,"end":12366.05,"text":"但鄭應耀部長"},{"start":12365.83,"end":12367.83,"text":"過來"},{"start":12366.9,"end":12368.9,"text":"請降"},{"start":12368.16,"end":12370.16,"text":"請問一下他是有什麼重要的事不來"},{"start":12371.16,"end":12373.16,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":12373.16,"end":12375.16,"text":"因為部長早上另外有行程"},{"start":12375.16,"end":12377.16,"text":"另外有行程"},{"start":12377.16,"end":12379.16,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":12379.16,"end":12381.16,"text":"那麼多委員會"},{"start":12381.16,"end":12383.16,"text":"一三四在開會"},{"start":12383.16,"end":12385.16,"text":"這麼多委員會"},{"start":12385.16,"end":12387.16,"text":"其他委員會的部長主委"},{"start":12387.16,"end":12389.16,"text":"都可以來"},{"start":12389.16,"end":12391.16,"text":"只有我們鄭應耀部長在全國民眾"},{"start":12391.16,"end":12393.16,"text":"在關注教育問題"},{"start":12393.16,"end":12395.16,"text":"希望他發表一些聲音的時候"},{"start":12395.16,"end":12397.16,"text":"他不願意面對社會大眾"},{"start":12397.15,"end":12399.15,"text":"這什麼重要的事"},{"start":12399.15,"end":12401.15,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":12401.15,"end":12403.15,"text":"因為早上部長到行政院院會"},{"start":12403.15,"end":12405.15,"text":"有教育部的提案"},{"start":12405.15,"end":12407.15,"text":"教育部什麼重要的提案你講一下"},{"start":12407.56,"end":12409.56,"text":"什麼重要提案"},{"start":12410.28,"end":12412.28,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12411.11,"end":12413.11,"text":"什麼重要提案"},{"start":12413.11,"end":12415.11,"text":"也是跟我們這次在"},{"start":12415.11,"end":12417.11,"text":"就學貸款相關的"},{"start":12417.11,"end":12419.11,"text":"一個精進措施"},{"start":12419.11,"end":12421.11,"text":"那為什麼今天立法院就是在討論這個"},{"start":12421.11,"end":12423.11,"text":"然後他不願意來"},{"start":12423.95,"end":12425.95,"text":"好"},{"start":12424.79,"end":12426.79,"text":"我們現在部長"},{"start":12426.79,"end":12428.79,"text":"因為他在行政院院會"},{"start":12428.79,"end":12430.79,"text":"他必須去針對我們這個"},{"start":12430.79,"end":12432.79,"text":"跟委員的立場是一樣"},{"start":12432.79,"end":12434.79,"text":"什麼立場一樣"},{"start":12434.79,"end":12436.79,"text":"今天雖然排的是學貸"},{"start":12436.79,"end":12438.79,"text":"雖然排的是營養午餐"},{"start":12438.79,"end":12440.79,"text":"但是大家很希望部長針對現在的"},{"start":12440.79,"end":12442.79,"text":"教育的問題"},{"start":12442.79,"end":12444.79,"text":"包括教育現場失序的狀況"},{"start":12444.79,"end":12446.79,"text":"來對社會大眾說明"},{"start":12446.79,"end":12448.79,"text":"結果用了一個他那麼重視這個東西"},{"start":12448.79,"end":12450.79,"text":"你說學貸是不是"},{"start":12450.79,"end":12452.79,"text":"那麼重視那我們學貸三把"},{"start":12452.79,"end":12454.79,"text":"教育部有版本嗎"},{"start":12454.79,"end":12456.79,"text":"教育部有沒有版本嗎"},{"start":12456.79,"end":12458.79,"text":"有沒有版本"},{"start":12458.79,"end":12460.79,"text":"有沒有版本"},{"start":12460.79,"end":12462.79,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":12462.79,"end":12464.79,"text":"營養午餐法有沒有版本"},{"start":12464.79,"end":12466.79,"text":"那就是不夠嘛"},{"start":12466.79,"end":12468.79,"text":"就是因為不夠學生團體也覺得不夠"},{"start":12468.79,"end":12470.79,"text":"所以大家才覺得要入法嘛"},{"start":12470.79,"end":12472.79,"text":"如果那麼重視的話你怎麼沒有立刻宣布"},{"start":12472.79,"end":12474.79,"text":"你具體的精進做為是什麼"},{"start":12474.79,"end":12476.79,"text":"為什麼學生團體會覺得不夠呢"},{"start":12476.79,"end":12478.79,"text":"市長啊大家都是明眼人"},{"start":12479.4,"end":12481.4,"text":"今天部長不願意來"},{"start":12481.4,"end":12483.4,"text":"就是不想要面對社會大眾"},{"start":12483.4,"end":12485.4,"text":"對於現在教育失序的質疑"},{"start":12485.4,"end":12487.4,"text":"我就問啦請問一下"},{"start":12487.4,"end":12489.4,"text":"教育部長這幾天"},{"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跟學生"},{"start":12770.58,"end":12772.58,"text":"跟家長的感覺"},{"start":12772.58,"end":12774.58,"text":"差很多"},{"start":12774.58,"end":12776.58,"text":"次長我不為難你啦"},{"start":12776.58,"end":12778.58,"text":"作為他是你的長官你當然要說他的好話"},{"start":12778.58,"end":12780.58,"text":"但你越說其實越幫他扣分"},{"start":12780.58,"end":12782.58,"text":"因為你越幫他擦脂裸粉"},{"start":12782.58,"end":12784.58,"text":"大家的感受會覺得"},{"start":12784.58,"end":12786.58,"text":"你們怎麼感受 自我感覺這麼良好"},{"start":12786.58,"end":12788.58,"text":"第一個啦 爛樹的問題趕快解決啦"},{"start":12790.49,"end":12792.49,"text":"你剛剛講說"},{"start":12792.67,"end":12794.67,"text":"那個現在的"},{"start":12794.67,"end":12796.67,"text":"什麼 建案的只剩兩成"},{"start":12796.67,"end":12798.67,"text":"投訴投訴"},{"start":12798.67,"end":12800.67,"text":"最後進到消防會議"},{"start":12800.67,"end":12802.67,"text":"消防委員去調查的"},{"start":12802.67,"end":12804.67,"text":"已經從八成二降到兩成二"},{"start":12805.71,"end":12807.71,"text":"那這兩成之後"},{"start":12807.71,"end":12809.71,"text":"那這兩成之後的爛數是多少"},{"start":12810.42,"end":12812.42,"text":"這是我們在這半年來的統計"},{"start":12812.42,"end":12814.42,"text":"我們在七月份中旬的時候"},{"start":12814.42,"end":12816.42,"text":"會有一個更明確的"},{"start":12816.42,"end":12818.42,"text":"的檢討分析到時候也可以跟委員"},{"start":12818.42,"end":12820.42,"text":"做說明"},{"start":12820.42,"end":12822.42,"text":"在消防會議一月份改革之後"},{"start":12822.42,"end":12824.42,"text":"現在第一個兩成還是"},{"start":12824.42,"end":12826.42,"text":"很多啦 第二"},{"start":12826.42,"end":12828.42,"text":"兩成進去之後會不會兩成都是"},{"start":12828.42,"end":12830.42,"text":"爛數 這才是最關鍵的"},{"start":12830.42,"end":12832.42,"text":"問題嗎 所以你要去"},{"start":12832.42,"end":12834.42,"text":"解決爛數的問題不是"},{"start":12834.42,"end":12836.42,"text":"喜之之地講說現在"},{"start":12836.42,"end":12838.42,"text":"成案的只剩兩成不是"},{"start":12838.42,"end":12840.42,"text":"這爛數 這第一件事情"},{"start":12841.3,"end":12843.3,"text":"第二件事情"},{"start":12844.83,"end":12846.83,"text":"一個老師"},{"start":12846.03,"end":12848.03,"text":"被捅"},{"start":12847.48,"end":12849.48,"text":"被學生捅屁股"},{"start":12849.37,"end":12851.37,"text":"然後"},{"start":12850.84,"end":12852.84,"text":"老師在寫黑板 一個女老師喔"},{"start":12853.72,"end":12855.72,"text":"屁股"},{"start":12854.99,"end":12856.99,"text":"本人試著把學生推開"},{"start":12856.99,"end":12858.99,"text":"結果"},{"start":12858.7,"end":12860.7,"text":"老師被處分 為什麼呢"},{"start":12860.7,"end":12862.7,"text":"因為寫這個報告的人是說"},{"start":12862.7,"end":12864.7,"text":"即使被行為人是"},{"start":12864.7,"end":12866.7,"text":"故意戳行為人屁股 就學生"},{"start":12866.7,"end":12868.7,"text":"是故意戳行為人屁股 甚至是"},{"start":12868.7,"end":12870.7,"text":"戳中肛門"},{"start":12870.7,"end":12872.7,"text":"但身為老師還是不應該有傷害"},{"start":12872.7,"end":12874.7,"text":"學生的行為 所以他被處分"},{"start":12875.79,"end":12877.79,"text":"老師本人試著把學生推開"},{"start":12877.79,"end":12879.79,"text":"自衛士"},{"start":12880.33,"end":12882.33,"text":"結果他被處分"},{"start":12882.22,"end":12884.22,"text":"市長你覺得OK嗎"},{"start":12883.66,"end":12885.66,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":12885.66,"end":12887.66,"text":"因為這部分我們會請宜蘭縣政府"},{"start":12887.66,"end":12889.66,"text":"你覺得OK嗎"},{"start":12889.66,"end":12891.66,"text":"如果從目前我看到的"},{"start":12891.66,"end":12893.66,"text":"訊息來看確實有重新"},{"start":12893.66,"end":12895.66,"text":"整理的"},{"start":12895.66,"end":12897.66,"text":"那太誇張了嘛 這個就校事會議啊"},{"start":12897.66,"end":12899.66,"text":"你們校事會議引進了很多"},{"start":12899.66,"end":12901.66,"text":"所謂的外部專家"},{"start":12901.66,"end":12903.66,"text":"或者是什麼家長委員"},{"start":12903.66,"end":12905.66,"text":"這就是一個 據我了解"},{"start":12905.66,"end":12907.66,"text":"是一個家長委員寫的啦"},{"start":12907.86,"end":12909.86,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12909.44,"end":12911.44,"text":"在校事會的人才資料庫裡面"},{"start":12911.44,"end":12913.44,"text":"我們也會有一些定期的"},{"start":12913.44,"end":12915.44,"text":"這個就是"},{"start":12915.44,"end":12917.44,"text":"市長 這就是一個很大的問題"},{"start":12917.44,"end":12919.44,"text":"這一種狀況非常多"},{"start":12919.44,"end":12921.44,"text":"只是因為這個"},{"start":12921.44,"end":12923.44,"text":"有網路上能PO出來嘛"},{"start":12923.82,"end":12925.82,"text":"那你今天"},{"start":12925.82,"end":12927.82,"text":"校事會議為什麼變成這樣"},{"start":12927.82,"end":12929.82,"text":"當初跟你們教育部一起推校事會議的人本基金會"},{"start":12932.36,"end":12934.36,"text":"有沒有仇私"},{"start":12934.79,"end":12936.79,"text":"我看到你知道他講什麼嗎"},{"start":12936.79,"end":12938.79,"text":"他說"},{"start":12937.88,"end":12939.88,"text":"哎呀 老師們也不要因為被濫訴啊"},{"start":12939.88,"end":12941.88,"text":"就"},{"start":12941.88,"end":12943.88,"text":"失去了原本跟學生的關係嘛"},{"start":12943.88,"end":12945.88,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12945.88,"end":12947.88,"text":"校事會議調查完之後"},{"start":12947.88,"end":12949.88,"text":"如果老師沒事"},{"start":12949.88,"end":12951.88,"text":"也是還老師清白啊"},{"start":12951.99,"end":12953.99,"text":"哇塞 站著講話不腰疼耶"},{"start":12954.47,"end":12956.47,"text":"那就不要台北調查看看"},{"start":12957.25,"end":12959.25,"text":"所有的老師雖然被調查"},{"start":12959.25,"end":12961.25,"text":"最後還清白"},{"start":12961.25,"end":12963.25,"text":"但是經歷四到六個月煎熬耶"},{"start":12963.25,"end":12965.25,"text":"很多老師講說這個調查過程"},{"start":12965.25,"end":12967.25,"text":"就是羞辱"},{"start":12966.99,"end":12968.99,"text":"被扒了好幾層皮"},{"start":12969.23,"end":12971.23,"text":"而且我們校事會議一個最誇張的事情就是"},{"start":12971.23,"end":12973.23,"text":"我之前也質詢過"},{"start":12973.23,"end":12975.23,"text":"行政院長卓榮泰啦 我不知道他有沒有重視啦"},{"start":12976,"end":12978,"text":"他也覺得不合理啊"},{"start":12978,"end":12980,"text":"但是校事會議依然沒有改革"},{"start":12980,"end":12982,"text":"就是所有的 我還沒講"},{"start":12982,"end":12984,"text":"講到卓榮泰你就急著護航是不是"},{"start":12984.99,"end":12986.99,"text":"我們再進入"},{"start":12986.99,"end":12988.99,"text":"我還沒有問問題"},{"start":12988.91,"end":12990.91,"text":"我要問什麼"},{"start":12990.57,"end":13000.57,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":12991.56,"end":12993.56,"text":"我還沒問 我跟他講說"},{"start":12993.56,"end":12995.56,"text":"所有的司法都是無罪推定"},{"start":12995.56,"end":12997.56,"text":"只有校事會議是有罪推定"},{"start":12997.56,"end":12999.56,"text":"他覺得合不合理"},{"start":12999.56,"end":13001.56,"text":"他還覺得不合理"},{"start":13001.56,"end":13003.56,"text":"老師被投訴之後"},{"start":13003.56,"end":13005.56,"text":"所有老師要自己收集資料去自證自己無罪"},{"start":13005.56,"end":13007.56,"text":"他還覺得不合理"},{"start":13007.56,"end":13009.56,"text":"老師被投訴之後"},{"start":13009.56,"end":13011.56,"text":"所有老師要自己收集資料去自證自己無罪"},{"start":13013.96,"end":13015.96,"text":"他光收集資料就好了啦"},{"start":13015.96,"end":13017.96,"text":"最後證明無罪啦"},{"start":13017.96,"end":13019.96,"text":"結果呢 都不用被客了啦"},{"start":13019.96,"end":13021.96,"text":"心情都受到影響了啦"},{"start":13021.96,"end":13023.96,"text":"被扒了幾層皮之後"},{"start":13023.96,"end":13025.96,"text":"人本積極會的講說 這也是證明清白機會啊"},{"start":13025.96,"end":13027.96,"text":"你不要因為這樣難過嘛"},{"start":13028.77,"end":13030.77,"text":"校事會已經成為一個非常扭曲的制度"},{"start":13030.77,"end":13032.77,"text":"對於老師"},{"start":13033.67,"end":13035.67,"text":"充滿了仇恨 寧可錯殺一百不可放過一人"},{"start":13035.67,"end":13037.67,"text":"充滿了仇恨 寧可錯殺一百不可放過一人"},{"start":13037.87,"end":13039.87,"text":"所以才會造成這樣子爛數的狀況"},{"start":13041.09,"end":13043.09,"text":"你們到底教育部知不知道問題啊"},{"start":13043.09,"end":13045.09,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":13045.09,"end":13047.09,"text":"您講的這些事實"},{"start":13047.09,"end":13049.09,"text":"可能在去年12月以前"},{"start":13049.09,"end":13051.09,"text":"在現場有可能發生"},{"start":13051.09,"end":13053.09,"text":"但是在今年1月部裡面針對校事會議"},{"start":13053.09,"end":13055.09,"text":"我們有做了"},{"start":13054.78,"end":13056.78,"text":"不准立民選舉"},{"start":13056.78,"end":13058.78,"text":"案件的分流 輔導資訊的公開"},{"start":13058.78,"end":13060.78,"text":"不准立民選舉 案件的分流 輔導資訊的公開"},{"start":13060.78,"end":13062.78,"text":"那甚至說調查報告出來"},{"start":13062.78,"end":13064.78,"text":"所謂的機關也可以再做一些審視"},{"start":13064.78,"end":13066.78,"text":"加強事後的監督"},{"start":13066.78,"end":13068.78,"text":"是不是讓我們有這半"},{"start":13068.78,"end":13070.78,"text":"你看這半年的事實"},{"start":13070.78,"end":13072.78,"text":"有罪推進呢"},{"start":13072.78,"end":13074.78,"text":"沒有所謂的有罪推進"},{"start":13074.78,"end":13076.78,"text":"就是有罪推進"},{"start":13076.78,"end":13078.78,"text":"老師要自證自己無罪"},{"start":13079.04,"end":13081.04,"text":"你是不是管國教的"},{"start":13081.71,"end":13083.71,"text":"我是督導高價"},{"start":13083.71,"end":13085.71,"text":"但是對於校事會議"},{"start":13087.6,"end":13089.6,"text":"有罪推進就是有"},{"start":13090.16,"end":13092.16,"text":"我們沒有這樣子的條文"},{"start":13092.16,"end":13094.16,"text":"你沒有這個條文 現行做法就是這樣"},{"start":13094.16,"end":13096.16,"text":"不要不食人間煙火"},{"start":13096.16,"end":13098.16,"text":"教育部最大的問題就是不食人間煙火"},{"start":13098.16,"end":13100.16,"text":"從你的對答就知道了"},{"start":13100.16,"end":13102.16,"text":"跟你講教育現狀就是這樣"},{"start":13102.16,"end":13104.16,"text":"你就去檢討嘛"},{"start":13104.16,"end":13106.16,"text":"你就改進嘛"},{"start":13106.16,"end":13108.16,"text":"結果你一直跟我講沒有"},{"start":13108.16,"end":13110.16,"text":"半年來就是不夠"},{"start":13110.16,"end":13112.16,"text":"而且我跟你講有罪推進就是沒有改"},{"start":13112.16,"end":13114.16,"text":"有罪推進就是沒有改"},{"start":13114.16,"end":13116.16,"text":"就是會造成濫述"},{"start":13116.79,"end":13118.79,"text":"沒有有罪推進這個問題"},{"start":13118.79,"end":13120.79,"text":"如果有怎麼辦"},{"start":13120.79,"end":13122.79,"text":"有的話怎麼辦"},{"start":13122.79,"end":13124.79,"text":"條文沒有 但實際上就是有"},{"start":13124.79,"end":13126.79,"text":"那你要不要去了解"},{"start":13126.79,"end":13128.79,"text":"你要不要去了解現實的狀況"},{"start":13128.79,"end":13130.79,"text":"你要不要去了解"},{"start":13130.79,"end":13132.79,"text":"不要在那邊耍腿皮子"},{"start":13132.79,"end":13134.79,"text":"教育部就是一副雲淡風輕"},{"start":13134.79,"end":13136.79,"text":"所以所有老師面對"},{"start":13136.79,"end":13138.79,"text":"這些困難的情況之下"},{"start":13138.79,"end":13140.79,"text":"教育部就是說條文沒有"},{"start":13140.79,"end":13142.79,"text":"隨便你啦"},{"start":13141.62,"end":13145.62,"text":"你跟講鐵拳教育裡面的部長講什麼"},{"start":13145.97,"end":13147.97,"text":"舉功道歉"},{"start":13147.97,"end":13149.97,"text":"跟所有老師說對不起"},{"start":13149.97,"end":13151.97,"text":"讓所有的老師獨自面對教育的困境"},{"start":13151.97,"end":13153.97,"text":"而我們的教育部次長"},{"start":13153.97,"end":13155.97,"text":"在說什麼沒有這一回事啦"},{"start":13155.97,"end":13157.97,"text":"沒有這一回事"},{"start":13157.97,"end":13159.97,"text":"條文沒有啦"},{"start":13159.97,"end":13161.97,"text":"條文沒有啦"},{"start":13161.97,"end":13163.97,"text":"部長不敢來次長說條文沒有啦"},{"start":13163.97,"end":13165.97,"text":"現實狀況教育部就是"},{"start":13165.97,"end":13167.97,"text":"假裝沒看到啦"},{"start":13167.97,"end":13169.97,"text":"你們這半年有做啦"},{"start":13169.97,"end":13171.97,"text":"做幾分嘛"},{"start":13171.97,"end":13173.97,"text":"考試考滿分100分"},{"start":13173.97,"end":13175.97,"text":"你考20分"},{"start":13175.97,"end":13177.97,"text":"你希望你考100分"},{"start":13177.97,"end":13181.97,"text":"你一直以為考個20分在那邊講"},{"start":13181.97,"end":13183.97,"text":"有啦有20分啦"},{"start":13183.97,"end":13185.97,"text":"有就好了啦"},{"start":13185.97,"end":13187.97,"text":"我希望你考100分"},{"start":13187.97,"end":13189.97,"text":"這半年來我們改革之後的一些成果"},{"start":13189.97,"end":13191.97,"text":"改革有成果的話"},{"start":13191.97,"end":13193.97,"text":"現在狀況會越來越糟嗎"},{"start":13193.97,"end":13195.97,"text":"會越來越糟嗎"},{"start":13195.97,"end":13197.97,"text":"我再跟你講一個啦"},{"start":13197.97,"end":13199.97,"text":"除了前一兩個禮拜"},{"start":13199.97,"end":13201.97,"text":"高雄一個國小的"},{"start":13201.97,"end":13203.97,"text":"老師發生不幸事件之外"},{"start":13203.97,"end":13205.97,"text":"現在也還有另外一個"},{"start":13208.12,"end":13210.12,"text":"高雄的老師"},{"start":13209.79,"end":13211.79,"text":"在網路上也是很紅"},{"start":13211.79,"end":13213.79,"text":"也很有名對教育很有貢獻"},{"start":13213.91,"end":13215.91,"text":"但是"},{"start":13215.85,"end":13217.85,"text":"前幾天忽然發文問說"},{"start":13217.85,"end":13219.85,"text":"請問學校的最高樓層是幾樓"},{"start":13221.15,"end":13223.15,"text":"後來被衛生局勸去送醫"},{"start":13223.15,"end":13225.15,"text":"這事情你知道嗎"},{"start":13225.18,"end":13227.18,"text":"我有在社群網上看到"},{"start":13227.18,"end":13229.18,"text":"所以有很多狀況你都知道"},{"start":13229.18,"end":13231.18,"text":"但是你還是覺得你做得很好"},{"start":13231.18,"end":13233.18,"text":"好"},{"start":13233.18,"end":13235.18,"text":"一年內有三個老師"},{"start":13235.18,"end":13237.18,"text":"選擇最樓"},{"start":13237.18,"end":13239.18,"text":"然後還有老師公然在網路發問"},{"start":13240.66,"end":13242.66,"text":"教育部覺得做得很好了"},{"start":13242.66,"end":13244.66,"text":"都不知道發生什麼事"},{"start":13244.66,"end":13246.66,"text":"教育部怎麼解決老師的情緒問題呢"},{"start":13246.66,"end":13248.66,"text":"很簡單啊"},{"start":13248.66,"end":13250.66,"text":"就去上自殺防治演習啊"},{"start":13251,"end":13253,"text":"都上演習嘛"},{"start":13253,"end":13255,"text":"反而上演習被罵"},{"start":13255,"end":13257,"text":"老師更覺得莫名其妙"},{"start":13257.99,"end":13259.99,"text":"那你可休息啊"},{"start":13260.45,"end":13262.45,"text":"然後實際上的狀況我們來看"},{"start":13263.84,"end":13265.84,"text":"老師的日常年度演習一大堆"},{"start":13266.9,"end":13268.9,"text":"環境教育四小時"},{"start":13268.9,"end":13270.9,"text":"交通安全四小時"},{"start":13270.9,"end":13272.9,"text":"特殊教育六小時"},{"start":13272.9,"end":13274.9,"text":"自殺防治三小時"},{"start":13274.9,"end":13276.9,"text":"情緒教育兩小時"},{"start":13275.69,"end":13277.69,"text":"教育部有點用演習的方式來解決問題"},{"start":13280.11,"end":13282.11,"text":"有沒有比較具體的方法"},{"start":13282.11,"end":13284.11,"text":"次長"},{"start":13284.11,"end":13286.11,"text":"跟委員報告演習的目的"},{"start":13286.11,"end":13288.11,"text":"不是為了演習而演習"},{"start":13288.11,"end":13290.11,"text":"所以我也跟幾個師出我們都在講"},{"start":13290.11,"end":13292.11,"text":"演習之後我們期待目的"},{"start":13292.11,"end":13294.11,"text":"是希望老師能夠了解"},{"start":13294.11,"end":13296.11,"text":"在校園內能夠有一個種子教師"},{"start":13296.11,"end":13298.11,"text":"能夠來協助校園內"},{"start":13298.11,"end":13300.11,"text":"能夠落實我們這些交通安全環境教育"},{"start":13300.11,"end":13302.11,"text":"那這部分怎麼"},{"start":13302.11,"end":13304.11,"text":"不要造成現場第一線老師的負擔"},{"start":13304.11,"end":13306.11,"text":"這點我們是可以再來斟酌"},{"start":13306.11,"end":13308.11,"text":"做更好的安排"},{"start":13308.11,"end":13310.11,"text":"希望委員讓我們把這半年來"},{"start":13310.11,"end":13312.11,"text":"我們整理出來的"},{"start":13312.11,"end":13314.11,"text":"在7月中我們是不是跟委員報告一下"},{"start":13314.11,"end":13316.11,"text":"在今年1月像社會改革的成果"},{"start":13316.11,"end":13318.11,"text":"我剛才其實要跟委員表達是這樣"},{"start":13318.11,"end":13320.11,"text":"你的表達就是說法條沒有"},{"start":13320.11,"end":13322.11,"text":"所以現實狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":13322.11,"end":13324.11,"text":"我哪知道"},{"start":13324.11,"end":13326.11,"text":"你態度就這樣"},{"start":13326.11,"end":13328.11,"text":"沒關係"},{"start":13328.11,"end":13330.11,"text":"大家都有看到我們的對話"},{"start":13330.11,"end":13332.11,"text":"可受公評"},{"start":13332.11,"end":13334.11,"text":"最後"},{"start":13334.11,"end":13336.11,"text":"請教一下國藥署長"},{"start":13336.74,"end":13338.74,"text":"請"},{"start":13339.09,"end":13341.09,"text":"各位好"},{"start":13340.81,"end":13342.81,"text":"那個"},{"start":13342.39,"end":13344.39,"text":"現在因為各縣市都免費營養午餐了"},{"start":13344.39,"end":13346.39,"text":"對吧"},{"start":13346.39,"end":13348.39,"text":"現在有宣布了"},{"start":13348.39,"end":13350.39,"text":"115宣言"},{"start":13350.39,"end":13352.39,"text":"但是這裡面有一些漏網之魚"},{"start":13352.39,"end":13354.39,"text":"跟署長報告"},{"start":13354.39,"end":13356.39,"text":"因為有一些國中他是國立的"},{"start":13356.39,"end":13358.39,"text":"譬如說我們新北市板橋區"},{"start":13358.92,"end":13360.92,"text":"國立華僑高級中學他是國立的"},{"start":13361.48,"end":13363.48,"text":"那在新北市免費營養午餐"},{"start":13363.48,"end":13365.48,"text":"他就沒有被照顧到"},{"start":13365.48,"end":13367.48,"text":"就我們會後馬上要"},{"start":13367.48,"end":13369.48,"text":"其實全國有十幾間"},{"start":13369.48,"end":13371.48,"text":"都是國立的高中"},{"start":13371.48,"end":13373.48,"text":"對 都沒有調查"},{"start":13373.48,"end":13375.48,"text":"好 那我講問一下"},{"start":13375.12,"end":13377.12,"text":"華僑國中免費營養午餐"},{"start":13377.12,"end":13379.12,"text":"怎麼處理"},{"start":13379.12,"end":13381.12,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13381.12,"end":13383.12,"text":"那民路裡面有國立國小國立國中部"},{"start":13383.12,"end":13385.12,"text":"那國立國小沒有問題"},{"start":13385.12,"end":13387.12,"text":"國立國中部的部分目前是嘉義的"},{"start":13387.12,"end":13389.12,"text":"科研時中的國中部的部分"},{"start":13389.12,"end":13391.12,"text":"可能嘉義縣這邊"},{"start":13391.12,"end":13393.12,"text":"我們再會做一點了解"},{"start":13393.12,"end":13395.12,"text":"那謝謝委員關心"},{"start":13395.12,"end":13397.12,"text":"不是啦 我現在問"},{"start":13397.12,"end":13399.12,"text":"怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":13399.12,"end":13401.12,"text":"你是國立的那現在市立的人家要補助免費營養午餐"},{"start":13401.12,"end":13403.12,"text":"那國立的你是不是就補助"},{"start":13403.12,"end":13405.12,"text":"不然的話怎麼"},{"start":13405.12,"end":13407.12,"text":"大家都是在讀國中"},{"start":13407.12,"end":13409.12,"text":"只是因為學校是市立國立的不同"},{"start":13409.12,"end":13411.12,"text":"有的就免費營養午餐 有的就沒有"},{"start":13411.12,"end":13413.12,"text":"那怎麼叫教育平權"},{"start":13413.12,"end":13415.12,"text":"教育平權不是你們一直在講的東西嗎"},{"start":13415.12,"end":13417.12,"text":"那既然華僑是"},{"start":13417.12,"end":13419.12,"text":"國立的那你就要照顧人家"},{"start":13419.12,"end":13421.12,"text":"所以是不是"},{"start":13422.67,"end":13424.67,"text":"國教署可以補助呢"},{"start":13424.67,"end":13426.67,"text":"還是就讓他們成為"},{"start":13426.67,"end":13428.67,"text":"沒有人理的一群"},{"start":13428.67,"end":13430.67,"text":"不是啦 你要講啊"},{"start":13430.67,"end":13432.67,"text":"現在我們在了解是"},{"start":13432.67,"end":13434.67,"text":"目前只有"},{"start":13434.33,"end":13436.33,"text":"國立的嘉義科學時中的國中部沒有"},{"start":13436.33,"end":13438.33,"text":"所以委員講的這個華僑"},{"start":13438.33,"end":13440.33,"text":"是有"},{"start":13440.33,"end":13442.33,"text":"是有 不過我們會後馬上了解"},{"start":13442.33,"end":13444.33,"text":"華僑沒有 我跟政長講沒有"},{"start":13444.33,"end":13446.33,"text":"我問過了嘛"},{"start":13446.33,"end":13448.33,"text":"為什麼每一個來這裡都喜歡先"},{"start":13448.33,"end":13450.33,"text":"先否定呢"},{"start":13450.33,"end":13452.33,"text":"不是 因為您"},{"start":13452.33,"end":13454.33,"text":"事前有問我們 我們就先去了解了"},{"start":13454.33,"end":13456.33,"text":"不用了解 我現在跟你講沒有嘛"},{"start":13456.33,"end":13458.33,"text":"那你要怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":13458.33,"end":13460.33,"text":"如果沒有的話 我們會跟當地的地方政府"},{"start":13460.33,"end":13462.33,"text":"一起來協助"},{"start":13462.33,"end":13464.33,"text":"那一協助什麼意思"},{"start":13464.33,"end":13466.33,"text":"如果地方政府沒有編譽算"},{"start":13466.33,"end":13468.33,"text":"那是國教署的編譽算是不是"},{"start":13468.33,"end":13470.33,"text":"跟委員報告 在國教法裡面"},{"start":13470.33,"end":13472.33,"text":"第九條到第十一條"},{"start":13472.33,"end":13474.33,"text":"有提到當地的各種"},{"start":13474.33,"end":13476.33,"text":"國中教育 國小教育"},{"start":13476.33,"end":13478.33,"text":"怎麼樣做分工 我們會依據那個來執行"},{"start":13478.33,"end":13480.33,"text":"這到底是什麼"},{"start":13480.33,"end":13482.33,"text":"你講話我都聽不懂"},{"start":13482.33,"end":13484.33,"text":"我的問題很簡單"},{"start":13484.33,"end":13486.33,"text":"勢力的就是"},{"start":13486.33,"end":13488.33,"text":"比如說新北市政府他們有補助"},{"start":13488.33,"end":13490.33,"text":"勢力的學校免費營養午餐"},{"start":13490.33,"end":13492.33,"text":"其實因為新北市裡面也有國力的"},{"start":13492.33,"end":13494.33,"text":"他就不是屬於新北市政府"},{"start":13494.33,"end":13496.33,"text":"國力的就沒有免費營養午餐"},{"start":13496.33,"end":13498.33,"text":"而且全國其實為數也不多"},{"start":13498.33,"end":13500.33,"text":"都國力的"},{"start":13500.4,"end":13502.4,"text":"那國教署的立場是說"},{"start":13502.4,"end":13504.4,"text":"不理他們 還是說會協調"},{"start":13504.4,"end":13506.4,"text":"地方政府 那如果地方"},{"start":13506.4,"end":13508.4,"text":"政府不理 那國教署是不是也就"},{"start":13508.4,"end":13510.4,"text":"沒辦法還是怎麼樣 還是國教"},{"start":13510.4,"end":13512.4,"text":"署會願意編譽 就這麼簡單的"},{"start":13512.4,"end":13514.4,"text":"問題不要繞來繞去"},{"start":13514.4,"end":13516.4,"text":"就跟剛才 委員直接回答"},{"start":13516.4,"end":13518.4,"text":"就是我們會直接跟地方政府"},{"start":13518.4,"end":13520.4,"text":"協調 地方政府在我們協調"},{"start":13520.4,"end":13522.4,"text":"之後 通常在所有"},{"start":13522.4,"end":13524.4,"text":"政策裡面都會一起來完成"},{"start":13524.4,"end":13526.4,"text":"他們也會同意"},{"start":13526.4,"end":13528.4,"text":"你確定 委員時間到了"},{"start":13528.4,"end":13530.4,"text":"那也請署長會後"},{"start":13530.4,"end":13532.4,"text":"將相關的資料提供"},{"start":13532.4,"end":13534.4,"text":"讓委員關心事項能夠得到回覆"},{"start":13536.04,"end":13538.04,"text":"那也再一次跟委員特別報告"},{"start":13538.04,"end":13540.04,"text":"下禮拜一 有關相關的"},{"start":13540.04,"end":13542.04,"text":"校園問題 我們會有公聽會"},{"start":13542.04,"end":13544.04,"text":"也邀請"},{"start":13543.51,"end":13545.51,"text":"委員可以出席 拜託委員"},{"start":13545.51,"end":13547.51,"text":"一起來發聲"},{"start":13547.65,"end":13549.65,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13549.42,"end":13551.42,"text":"請回座"},{"start":13555.64,"end":13557.64,"text":"接下來 徐欣瑩委員"},{"start":13567.04,"end":13569.04,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":13569.04,"end":13571.04,"text":"本席邀請教育部 朱長次"},{"start":13571.38,"end":13573.38,"text":"有請 市長"},{"start":13575.82,"end":13577.82,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13577.82,"end":13579.82,"text":"市長 今天有蠻多的議題"},{"start":13579.82,"end":13581.82,"text":"首先 第一個就"},{"start":13581.82,"end":13583.82,"text":"有關就學貸款的部分"},{"start":13583.82,"end":13585.82,"text":"因為本席時間有限"},{"start":13585.82,"end":13587.82,"text":"首先 我想先表達"},{"start":13587.82,"end":13589.82,"text":"我的立場"},{"start":13589.82,"end":13591.82,"text":"就是就學貸款的制度"},{"start":13591.82,"end":13593.82,"text":"我們希望是成為青年"},{"start":13593.82,"end":13595.82,"text":"向上的階梯"},{"start":13595.82,"end":13597.82,"text":"而不是人生起步的重擔"},{"start":13598.68,"end":13600.68,"text":"那我們"},{"start":13602.23,"end":13604.23,"text":"學生和家庭"},{"start":13604.23,"end":13606.23,"text":"需要的不是每年拆政策"},{"start":13606.23,"end":13608.23,"text":"他們需要的是穩定"},{"start":13608.23,"end":13610.23,"text":"而且可預期的保障"},{"start":13610.23,"end":13612.23,"text":"所以本席"},{"start":13612.23,"end":13614.23,"text":"直接了當的來請教"},{"start":13614.23,"end":13616.23,"text":"市長 那有關"},{"start":13616.23,"end":13618.23,"text":"這個高級中等教育法第58條"},{"start":13620.1,"end":13622.1,"text":"教育部是否同意"},{"start":13622.1,"end":13624.1,"text":"應該要明定貸款利息"},{"start":13624.1,"end":13626.1,"text":"由中央主管機關"},{"start":13626.1,"end":13628.1,"text":"來編列預算負擔"},{"start":13628.1,"end":13630.1,"text":"以及身貸的資格"},{"start":13630.1,"end":13632.1,"text":"應該加入撫養負擔"},{"start":13632.1,"end":13634.1,"text":"教育部的立場"},{"start":13634.1,"end":13636.1,"text":"是 謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":13636.1,"end":13638.1,"text":"我們跟委員一樣"},{"start":13638.1,"end":13640.1,"text":"都希望學貸不要成為"},{"start":13640.1,"end":13642.1,"text":"學生畢業之後向上"},{"start":13642.1,"end":13644.1,"text":"流動的一個重擔"},{"start":13644.1,"end":13646.1,"text":"所以 我們期待的是說"},{"start":13646.1,"end":13648.1,"text":"是不是可以在"},{"start":13648.1,"end":13650.1,"text":"目前在大學法 中央學校法"},{"start":13650.1,"end":13652.1,"text":"跟高級中學法 他正在學貸"},{"start":13652.1,"end":13654.1,"text":"這個部分本來就有個授權的辦法了"},{"start":13654.1,"end":13656.1,"text":"就有個授權的依據"},{"start":13656.1,"end":13658.1,"text":"讓教育部去定辦法"},{"start":13658.1,"end":13660.1,"text":"我們過去針對學貸的利息"},{"start":13660.1,"end":13662.1,"text":"針對貸款的資格"},{"start":13662.1,"end":13664.1,"text":"所以你們認同中央主管機關來"},{"start":13664.1,"end":13666.1,"text":"編列整個貸款利息"},{"start":13666.1,"end":13668.1,"text":"來負擔 可以嗎"},{"start":13668.1,"end":13670.1,"text":"我們目前已經有宣布"},{"start":13670.1,"end":13672.1,"text":"總統在27號已經有宣布"},{"start":13672.1,"end":13674.1,"text":"我們會調降還款利息1%"},{"start":13674.1,"end":13676.1,"text":"所以沒有"},{"start":13676.1,"end":13678.1,"text":"沒有 不願意免利息就對了"},{"start":13678.1,"end":13680.1,"text":"免息這一塊"},{"start":13680.1,"end":13682.1,"text":"我們還是期待是說"},{"start":13682.1,"end":13684.1,"text":"讓在"},{"start":13684.1,"end":13686.1,"text":"我們是希望"},{"start":13686.1,"end":13688.1,"text":"很多委員我相信都很希望"},{"start":13688.1,"end":13690.1,"text":"等於是就是免利息的部分"},{"start":13690.1,"end":13692.1,"text":"朝這個方向"},{"start":13692.1,"end":13694.1,"text":"我們現在會"},{"start":13694.1,"end":13696.1,"text":"比較希望說"},{"start":13696.1,"end":13698.1,"text":"因為已經降1%"},{"start":13698.1,"end":13700.1,"text":"未來會再看整個財政"},{"start":13700.1,"end":13702.1,"text":"跟學生需求"},{"start":13702.1,"end":13704.1,"text":"來做處理 讓政府的資源"},{"start":13704.1,"end":13706.1,"text":"做更精準的通販"},{"start":13706.1,"end":13708.1,"text":"其實我跟委員報告"},{"start":13708.1,"end":13710.1,"text":"以目前學生畢業後的還款"},{"start":13710.1,"end":13712.1,"text":"的一個人來講"},{"start":13712.1,"end":13714.1,"text":"他其實有將近8成8"},{"start":13714.1,"end":13716.1,"text":"的費用是在還本金"},{"start":13716.1,"end":13718.1,"text":"利息大概只剩1成2"},{"start":13718.1,"end":13720.1,"text":"那又降了之後"},{"start":13720.1,"end":13722.1,"text":"有關就學貸款的部分"},{"start":13722.1,"end":13724.1,"text":"本席這個聽了很多"},{"start":13724.1,"end":13726.1,"text":"年輕人的意見"},{"start":13726.1,"end":13728.1,"text":"所以我們是希望朝向"},{"start":13728.1,"end":13730.1,"text":"第一個利息全免"},{"start":13730.1,"end":13732.1,"text":"第二個就是他身貸的"},{"start":13732.1,"end":13734.1,"text":"資格呢 家務所得可以"},{"start":13734.1,"end":13736.1,"text":"從120萬提升到"},{"start":13736.1,"end":13738.1,"text":"150萬"},{"start":13738.1,"end":13740.1,"text":"那再來就是本席今天也有提"},{"start":13740.1,"end":13742.1,"text":"一個修正動議就是"},{"start":13742.1,"end":13744.1,"text":"本金的還款是不是可以"},{"start":13744.1,"end":13746.1,"text":"從工作一年後延長到"},{"start":13746.1,"end":13748.1,"text":"兩年後"},{"start":13748.1,"end":13750.1,"text":"等於給我們最重要就是給我們"},{"start":13750.1,"end":13752.1,"text":"年輕人他在起步的時候"},{"start":13752.1,"end":13754.1,"text":"他其實也是"},{"start":13754.1,"end":13756.1,"text":"他的經濟能力是最弱的"},{"start":13756.1,"end":13758.1,"text":"所以我們應該給他"},{"start":13758.1,"end":13760.1,"text":"更寬限的"},{"start":13760.1,"end":13762.1,"text":"這個一個狀態"},{"start":13762.1,"end":13764.1,"text":"然後再來就是就學貸款"},{"start":13764.1,"end":13766.1,"text":"我們還是希望朝向能夠免利息"},{"start":13766.1,"end":13768.1,"text":"這個教育部"},{"start":13768.1,"end":13770.1,"text":"是不是可以承諾就是說"},{"start":13770.1,"end":13772.1,"text":"一個月內"},{"start":13772.1,"end":13774.1,"text":"來向教育委員會提出"},{"start":13774.1,"end":13776.1,"text":"我們這個"},{"start":13776.1,"end":13778.1,"text":"高級中等教育法的"},{"start":13778.1,"end":13780.1,"text":"第58條"},{"start":13780.1,"end":13782.1,"text":"他可以入法的項目清單"},{"start":13782.1,"end":13784.1,"text":"那再來就是區分哪些"},{"start":13784.1,"end":13786.1,"text":"應該入法"},{"start":13786.1,"end":13788.1,"text":"哪些可以由執法處理"},{"start":13788.1,"end":13790.1,"text":"哪些教育部人有疑慮"},{"start":13790.1,"end":13792.1,"text":"是不是可以逐項的說明"},{"start":13792.1,"end":13794.1,"text":"在一個月內提供給教育委員會"},{"start":13794.1,"end":13796.1,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":13796.1,"end":13798.1,"text":"跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":13798.1,"end":13800.1,"text":"高級中等教育法58條"},{"start":13800.1,"end":13802.1,"text":"因為高中已經全面免學費了"},{"start":13802.1,"end":13804.1,"text":"但委員關係的可能是在大學法"},{"start":13804.1,"end":13806.1,"text":"跟專科學校法"},{"start":13806.1,"end":13808.1,"text":"那沒關係這塊由我們來整理"},{"start":13808.1,"end":13810.1,"text":"哪一些是在我們目前授權辦法"},{"start":13810.1,"end":13812.1,"text":"或是我們的一些"},{"start":13812.1,"end":13814.1,"text":"方案就可以處理的"},{"start":13814.1,"end":13816.1,"text":"我們列個表提供給委員沒問題"},{"start":13816.1,"end":13818.1,"text":"那接著今天因為也有談到"},{"start":13818.1,"end":13820.1,"text":"營養午餐的"},{"start":13820.1,"end":13822.1,"text":"本席也想很快的就是"},{"start":13822.1,"end":13824.1,"text":"想了解我們"},{"start":13824.1,"end":13826.1,"text":"教育部的立場就是"},{"start":13826.1,"end":13828.1,"text":"對於營養午餐"},{"start":13828.1,"end":13830.1,"text":"我們相信教育部也認同"},{"start":13830.1,"end":13832.1,"text":"學校的營養午餐"},{"start":13832.1,"end":13834.1,"text":"它不只是一份便當"},{"start":13834.1,"end":13836.1,"text":"它是一整套的校園治理制度"},{"start":13836.1,"end":13838.1,"text":"所以我們現在"},{"start":13838.1,"end":13840.1,"text":"看到教育部今天的"},{"start":13840.1,"end":13842.1,"text":"報告裡面有說"},{"start":13842.1,"end":13844.1,"text":"原本教育部每年有補助弱勢"},{"start":13844.1,"end":13846.1,"text":"午餐21億"},{"start":13846.1,"end":13848.1,"text":"國產可溯源食材"},{"start":13848.1,"end":13850.1,"text":"有38億"},{"start":13850.1,"end":13852.1,"text":"偏鄉中央廚房15億"},{"start":13852.1,"end":13854.1,"text":"那再加上新增的"},{"start":13854.1,"end":13856.1,"text":"營養師午餐執行秘書等等"},{"start":13856.1,"end":13858.1,"text":"26億"},{"start":13858.1,"end":13860.1,"text":"總計超過100億"},{"start":13860.1,"end":13862.1,"text":"這個未來"},{"start":13861.53,"end":13865.53,"text":"是要可能回歸地方負擔嗎"},{"start":13865.53,"end":13867.53,"text":"是因為在"},{"start":13867.53,"end":13869.53,"text":"裁放之後"},{"start":13869.53,"end":13871.53,"text":"那個是財政收支劃分法"},{"start":13871.53,"end":13873.53,"text":"那你中央定標準"},{"start":13873.53,"end":13875.53,"text":"結果你把100億"},{"start":13875.53,"end":13877.53,"text":"整個丟給地方"},{"start":13877.53,"end":13879.53,"text":"那地方的財政又吃緊"},{"start":13879.53,"end":13881.53,"text":"你又把壓力丟給學校"},{"start":13881.53,"end":13883.53,"text":"會讓我們覺得"},{"start":13883.53,"end":13885.53,"text":"這個是中央出一張嘴"},{"start":13885.53,"end":13887.53,"text":"中央有理想"},{"start":13887.53,"end":13889.53,"text":"結果你地方來負帳單"},{"start":13889.53,"end":13891.53,"text":"學校扛責任"},{"start":13891.53,"end":13893.53,"text":"出了事情你就怪學校跟老師"},{"start":13893.53,"end":13895.53,"text":"這個不合理"},{"start":13895.53,"end":13897.53,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":13897.53,"end":13899.53,"text":"因為目前據了解22縣市"},{"start":13899.53,"end":13901.53,"text":"已經都是全面營養午餐免費"},{"start":13901.53,"end":13903.53,"text":"代表說在裁放法之後"},{"start":13903.53,"end":13905.53,"text":"他們地方的支支"},{"start":13905.53,"end":13907.53,"text":"財力是夠的"},{"start":13907.53,"end":13909.53,"text":"已經可以來支支在快"},{"start":13909.53,"end":13911.53,"text":"那當然教育部我們會持續就"},{"start":13911.53,"end":13913.53,"text":"整個營養午餐的品質"},{"start":13913.53,"end":13915.53,"text":"一些管控食安管理"},{"start":13915.53,"end":13917.53,"text":"資訊的揭露"},{"start":13917.53,"end":13919.53,"text":"更緊密的合作"},{"start":13919.53,"end":13921.53,"text":"不會因為說有地方來做"},{"start":13921.53,"end":13923.53,"text":"我們就不做"},{"start":13923.53,"end":13925.53,"text":"但是確實在經費的部分"},{"start":13925.53,"end":13927.53,"text":"現在地方財力應該是可以支支"},{"start":13927.53,"end":13929.53,"text":"那我們今天因為有要討論"},{"start":13929.53,"end":13931.53,"text":"整個營養午餐的專法"},{"start":13931.53,"end":13933.53,"text":"是不是可以請教育部"},{"start":13933.53,"end":13935.53,"text":"也可以提出來這個會後提出來"},{"start":13935.53,"end":13937.53,"text":"四件事第一個"},{"start":13937.53,"end":13939.53,"text":"專法會送行政院"},{"start":13939.53,"end":13941.53,"text":"行政院"},{"start":13941.53,"end":13943.53,"text":"送立法院的具體時程嗎"},{"start":13943.53,"end":13945.53,"text":"好這第一個"},{"start":13945.53,"end":13947.53,"text":"中央與地方裁員的分單表"},{"start":13949.06,"end":13951.06,"text":"一二三"},{"start":13949.85,"end":13951.85,"text":"我們未來主員工的"},{"start":13951.85,"end":13953.85,"text":"這個營養午餐我們還是希望"},{"start":13953.85,"end":13955.85,"text":"我們中央可以來承擔"},{"start":13955.85,"end":13957.85,"text":"那第三個午餐"},{"start":13957.85,"end":13959.85,"text":"執行秘書專職化或是"},{"start":13959.85,"end":13961.85,"text":"教師兼任"},{"start":13961.85,"end":13963.85,"text":"減售課的全國標準"},{"start":13963.85,"end":13965.85,"text":"第四個營養師"},{"start":13965.85,"end":13967.85,"text":"廚工廚房設備和"},{"start":13967.85,"end":13969.85,"text":"偏鄉共餐的分年補助"},{"start":13969.85,"end":13971.85,"text":"計畫這一些"},{"start":13971.85,"end":13973.85,"text":"是不是可以在一個月內向委員"},{"start":13973.85,"end":13975.85,"text":"會提出可以嗎"},{"start":13975.85,"end":13977.85,"text":"我請署長這邊跟委員說明一下"},{"start":13977.85,"end":13979.85,"text":"可不可以"},{"start":13979.85,"end":13981.85,"text":"提出來"},{"start":13981.85,"end":13983.85,"text":"最後可不可以請主席"},{"start":13983.85,"end":13985.85,"text":"在場的教育部"},{"start":13985.85,"end":13987.85,"text":"教育部是不是可以"},{"start":13987.85,"end":13989.85,"text":"提出全國營養師"},{"start":13989.85,"end":13991.85,"text":"午餐秘書廚工跟廚房的"},{"start":13991.85,"end":13993.85,"text":"設備盤點"},{"start":13993.85,"end":13995.85,"text":"提給教育委員會"},{"start":13995.85,"end":13997.85,"text":"那財政部今天也有來是不是提出"},{"start":13997.85,"end":13999.85,"text":"中央地方的分單模式"},{"start":13999.85,"end":14001.85,"text":"可不可以請主席才是"},{"start":14001.85,"end":14003.85,"text":"再來就是衛福部"},{"start":14003.85,"end":14005.85,"text":"能否提出這個"},{"start":14005.85,"end":14007.85,"text":"請衛福部提出"},{"start":14007.85,"end":14009.85,"text":"食安風險的稽查"},{"start":14009.85,"end":14011.85,"text":"以及異常通報制度"},{"start":14011.85,"end":14013.85,"text":"那請農業部提出"},{"start":14013.85,"end":14015.85,"text":"在地食材的穩定供應"},{"start":14015.85,"end":14017.85,"text":"與價格調節機制"},{"start":14017.85,"end":14019.85,"text":"可不可以請主席才是"},{"start":14019.85,"end":14021.85,"text":"這個是不是可以請"},{"start":14021.85,"end":14023.85,"text":"今天有來的四個部會送"},{"start":14023.85,"end":14025.85,"text":"教育委員會可以嗎"},{"start":14026.55,"end":14028.55,"text":"主席可以嗎"},{"start":14028.55,"end":14030.55,"text":"委員應該時間到了"},{"start":14030.55,"end":14032.55,"text":"但是委員所提的相關需求"},{"start":14032.55,"end":14034.55,"text":"也希望我們相關部會"},{"start":14034.55,"end":14036.55,"text":"應該給予正面的回應"},{"start":14036.55,"end":14038.55,"text":"是不是會後能夠提供"},{"start":14038.55,"end":14040.55,"text":"這些相關的籌備計畫"},{"start":14040.42,"end":14042.42,"text":"那請主席才是"},{"start":14042.42,"end":14044.42,"text":"另外有三個部會"},{"start":14044.42,"end":14046.42,"text":"因為時間在地方政府的設備盤點"},{"start":14046.42,"end":14048.42,"text":"是不是可以給我們比較長的時間"},{"start":14048.42,"end":14050.42,"text":"兩個月內"},{"start":14050.42,"end":14052.42,"text":"那就兩個月好不好"},{"start":14052.42,"end":14054.42,"text":"盤點的話兩個時間"},{"start":14054.42,"end":14056.42,"text":"三個月內"},{"start":14056.42,"end":14058.42,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14058.42,"end":14060.42,"text":"那請議委員的辦理"},{"start":14066.36,"end":14068.36,"text":"下一位張亞林委員"},{"start":14074.27,"end":14076.27,"text":"我們有請朱次"},{"start":14076.27,"end":14078.27,"text":"有請次長"},{"start":14080.76,"end":14082.76,"text":"這一集抱歉"},{"start":14082.76,"end":14084.76,"text":"我可能要請國教署署長一起"},{"start":14089.56,"end":14091.56,"text":"有請署長謝謝"},{"start":14092.42,"end":14094.42,"text":"好我想"},{"start":14094.42,"end":14096.42,"text":"昨天這個"},{"start":14095.82,"end":14097.82,"text":"中小學校長協會有發布新聞稿"},{"start":14097.82,"end":14099.82,"text":"提到說教育現場有老師在教學"},{"start":14099.82,"end":14101.82,"text":"或輔導的過程之中呢"},{"start":14101.82,"end":14103.82,"text":"被學生咬傷抓傷撞傷甚至是"},{"start":14103.82,"end":14105.82,"text":"有牙齒斷裂了那我自己也有遇過"},{"start":14105.82,"end":14107.82,"text":"處理過的相關的案件"},{"start":14107.82,"end":14109.82,"text":"是老師可能甚至有被打"},{"start":14109.82,"end":14111.82,"text":"這樣子的一個案件"},{"start":14111.82,"end":14113.82,"text":"然後嘔吒等等的那最後老師"},{"start":14113.82,"end":14115.82,"text":"通常就是礙於教育人員的身份跟職責"},{"start":14115.82,"end":14117.82,"text":"他最後就不選擇不提"},{"start":14117.82,"end":14119.82,"text":"不會不報然後也不提告"},{"start":14119.82,"end":14121.82,"text":"然後就息事寧人"},{"start":14121.82,"end":14123.82,"text":"那所以呢這個協會他們也做了一些調查"},{"start":14123.82,"end":14125.82,"text":"就發現呢這兩年來教育人員"},{"start":14125.82,"end":14127.82,"text":"因為在教學或輔導期間受到攻擊的"},{"start":14127.82,"end":14129.82,"text":"事件呢"},{"start":14129.82,"end":14131.82,"text":"其實是不少十次以上"},{"start":14131.82,"end":14133.82,"text":"就有十七筆"},{"start":14133.82,"end":14135.82,"text":"這是九十個學校的回覆"},{"start":14135.82,"end":14137.82,"text":"其中十次以上"},{"start":14137.82,"end":14139.82,"text":"有十七筆普通班的老師"},{"start":14139.82,"end":14141.82,"text":"有五十所"},{"start":14141.82,"end":14143.82,"text":"那從這張表我想你就可以非常清楚的看見到"},{"start":14143.82,"end":14145.82,"text":"我們教學現場老師們承受的是"},{"start":14146.83,"end":14148.83,"text":"什麼樣子的一個狀態"},{"start":14148.83,"end":14150.83,"text":"什麼樣子的一個壓力"},{"start":14150.85,"end":14152.85,"text":"所以我想要了解就是說教育部現在"},{"start":14152.85,"end":14154.85,"text":"有沒有去掌握我們全國教育人員"},{"start":14154.85,"end":14156.85,"text":"因學生攻擊而受傷的統計"},{"start":14156.85,"end":14158.85,"text":"有沒有分職務分事件分受傷的程度"},{"start":14158.85,"end":14160.85,"text":"來做一個盤點呢"},{"start":14160.85,"end":14162.85,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":14162.85,"end":14164.85,"text":"好謝謝委員指導"},{"start":14164.85,"end":14166.85,"text":"確實在目前"},{"start":14166.85,"end":14168.85,"text":"我們學校"},{"start":14168.85,"end":14170.85,"text":"大家都有校安通報"},{"start":14170.85,"end":14172.85,"text":"不管是師對生或生對師"},{"start":14172.85,"end":14174.85,"text":"都有"},{"start":14174.85,"end":14176.85,"text":"那這部分我們可以來做一些"},{"start":14176.85,"end":14178.85,"text":"更細緻的分類"},{"start":14178.85,"end":14180.85,"text":"來跟委員報告調查情形"},{"start":14180.85,"end":14182.85,"text":"那其次針對於"},{"start":14182.85,"end":14184.85,"text":"老師在職場受到的"},{"start":14184.85,"end":14186.85,"text":"一些不法侵害"},{"start":14186.85,"end":14188.85,"text":"早上其實媒體朋友在問我"},{"start":14188.85,"end":14190.85,"text":"在職安法雖然"},{"start":14190.85,"end":14192.85,"text":"已經有一些規範可是我們會跟"},{"start":14192.85,"end":14194.85,"text":"書團討論可能我們需要針對"},{"start":14194.85,"end":14196.85,"text":"學校這個場域針對"},{"start":14196.85,"end":14198.85,"text":"老師的這種安全指導"},{"start":14198.85,"end":14200.85,"text":"應該要有積極的作為"},{"start":14200.85,"end":14202.85,"text":"是是是"},{"start":14202.85,"end":14204.85,"text":"我們會來做"},{"start":14204.85,"end":14206.85,"text":"剛剛你提到的校安通報"},{"start":14206.85,"end":14208.85,"text":"那最近也是台北市有個小學"},{"start":14208.85,"end":14210.85,"text":"仍然國小的事件也是沸沸揚揚"},{"start":14210.85,"end":14212.85,"text":"那據我所知家長會是"},{"start":14212.85,"end":14214.85,"text":"告訴我說他們去跟"},{"start":14214.85,"end":14216.85,"text":"台北市教育局要"},{"start":14216.85,"end":14218.85,"text":"詢問的時候教育局是說"},{"start":14218.85,"end":14220.85,"text":"校安通報的統計會先到"},{"start":14221.45,"end":14223.45,"text":"才會再轉告給他們"},{"start":14223.71,"end":14225.71,"text":"那這是事實嗎"},{"start":14225.71,"end":14227.71,"text":"因為據我所知應該是同步進行吧"},{"start":14227.71,"end":14229.71,"text":"這個是不是可以請次長再釐清一下"},{"start":14229.71,"end":14231.71,"text":"好"},{"start":14231.71,"end":14233.71,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14233.71,"end":14235.71,"text":"這個案子我們部裡面包含書裡面"},{"start":14235.71,"end":14237.71,"text":"也非常的關切"},{"start":14237.71,"end":14239.71,"text":"那他其實已經有涉及到"},{"start":14239.71,"end":14241.71,"text":"一些危險的動作"},{"start":14241.71,"end":14243.71,"text":"那我們會要求台北市"},{"start":14243.71,"end":14245.71,"text":"在七天內把"},{"start":14245.71,"end":14247.71,"text":"過往他有通報過十次"},{"start":14247.71,"end":14249.71,"text":"那是不是同一個個案"},{"start":14249.71,"end":14251.71,"text":"同一個行為等等"},{"start":14251.71,"end":14253.71,"text":"那現在是有什麼"},{"start":14253.71,"end":14255.71,"text":"處理情形調查結果"},{"start":14255.71,"end":14257.71,"text":"以及未來如何預防"},{"start":14257.71,"end":14259.71,"text":"甚至我們部內如何用"},{"start":14259.71,"end":14261.71,"text":"校安通報上類似情形"},{"start":14261.71,"end":14263.71,"text":"也有所檢討"},{"start":14263.71,"end":14265.71,"text":"大概這兩層次都會做檢視"},{"start":14265.71,"end":14267.71,"text":"好我想這個部分其實我是想要強調一個重點"},{"start":14267.71,"end":14269.71,"text":"就是說當學校"},{"start":14269.71,"end":14271.71,"text":"我們這個校安通報的流程應該行之有年了"},{"start":14271.71,"end":14273.71,"text":"對不對學校該怎麼進行通報"},{"start":14273.71,"end":14275.71,"text":"教育局各立的縣市政府"},{"start":14275.71,"end":14277.71,"text":"應該如何協助學校"},{"start":14277.71,"end":14279.71,"text":"啟動應變小組"},{"start":14279.71,"end":14281.71,"text":"以及後續的三級處遇"},{"start":14281.71,"end":14283.71,"text":"這應該都是地方縣市政府"},{"start":14283.71,"end":14285.71,"text":"應該要來協助的部分"},{"start":14285.71,"end":14287.71,"text":"可是學校告訴我的是"},{"start":14287.71,"end":14289.71,"text":"會長告訴我的是"},{"start":14289.83,"end":14293.83,"text":"台北市必須要等到教育部轉資這個校安通報"},{"start":14293.83,"end":14295.83,"text":"我想這個可能就不是符合"},{"start":14295.83,"end":14297.83,"text":"過去行之有年"},{"start":14297.83,"end":14299.83,"text":"所以這部分要再麻煩國教署"},{"start":14299.83,"end":14301.83,"text":"積極的來督導"},{"start":14301.83,"end":14303.83,"text":"因為這的確現場來說"},{"start":14303.83,"end":14305.83,"text":"我要先講一下"},{"start":14305.83,"end":14307.83,"text":"我們要照顧現場的學生"},{"start":14307.83,"end":14309.83,"text":"也要保護老師"},{"start":14309.83,"end":14311.83,"text":"那這個孩子也要立刻的進行三級處遇"},{"start":14311.83,"end":14313.83,"text":"好不好"},{"start":14313.83,"end":14315.83,"text":"我要補充一點"},{"start":14315.83,"end":14317.83,"text":"我們可能要釐清一下"},{"start":14317.83,"end":14319.83,"text":"那教育部的同仁"},{"start":14319.83,"end":14321.83,"text":"家長等等會有這樣的說法"},{"start":14321.83,"end":14323.83,"text":"其實不是這樣的"},{"start":14323.83,"end":14325.83,"text":"地方政府在做為主管機關"},{"start":14325.83,"end":14327.83,"text":"他早就已經在處理了"},{"start":14327.83,"end":14329.83,"text":"所以不帶通報後"},{"start":14329.83,"end":14331.83,"text":"就還不要有所何定或是轉資"},{"start":14331.83,"end":14333.83,"text":"這個是歷來本來就依法"},{"start":14333.83,"end":14335.83,"text":"在處置的作為"},{"start":14335.83,"end":14337.83,"text":"這個是教育局給他的回覆"},{"start":14337.83,"end":14339.83,"text":"說他來告訴我這個問題"},{"start":14339.83,"end":14341.83,"text":"所以我希望你們來了解一下"},{"start":14341.83,"end":14343.83,"text":"那再來一個部分就是說"},{"start":14343.83,"end":14345.83,"text":"因為其實協會也有講到就是說"},{"start":14345.83,"end":14347.83,"text":"是不是可以針對學校的部分"},{"start":14347.83,"end":14349.83,"text":"因為我們現在這個補償金"},{"start":14349.83,"end":14351.83,"text":"慰問金基本上是公教一體"},{"start":14351.83,"end":14353.83,"text":"可是對他們來說"},{"start":14353.83,"end":14355.83,"text":"其實是非常困難"},{"start":14355.83,"end":14357.83,"text":"因為其實公務人員不會面對到這麼多的"},{"start":14357.83,"end":14359.83,"text":"可能現場的攻擊"},{"start":14359.83,"end":14361.83,"text":"或傷害等等的"},{"start":14361.83,"end":14363.83,"text":"所以是不是可以針對這個慰問金辦法"},{"start":14363.83,"end":14365.83,"text":"把公務人員跟教育人員來脫鉤"},{"start":14365.83,"end":14367.83,"text":"建立這個教育人員專屬的慰問補償"},{"start":14367.83,"end":14369.83,"text":"跟支持制度呢"},{"start":14369.83,"end":14371.83,"text":"市長您的看法"},{"start":14371.83,"end":14373.83,"text":"這個部分還會涉及到跟學部的選擇"},{"start":14373.83,"end":14375.83,"text":"我們會很重視這樣的建議"},{"start":14375.83,"end":14377.83,"text":"我們跟學區不討論"},{"start":14377.83,"end":14379.83,"text":"這是完全不一樣的狀態"},{"start":14379.83,"end":14381.83,"text":"再來一個問題就是說疑似生"},{"start":14381.83,"end":14383.83,"text":"這個其實我一直在追啦"},{"start":14383.83,"end":14385.83,"text":"就是說台北市的疑似生的比例"},{"start":14385.83,"end":14387.83,"text":"比其他的縣市人數"},{"start":14387.83,"end":14389.83,"text":"比例都來的高"},{"start":14389.83,"end":14391.83,"text":"那台北市政府的回覆"},{"start":14391.83,"end":14393.83,"text":"給我們的回覆是說"},{"start":14393.83,"end":14395.83,"text":"因為台北市的疑似生人數比較高"},{"start":14395.83,"end":14397.83,"text":"主要是因為孩子卡在幼兒園"},{"start":14397.83,"end":14399.83,"text":"大班生國小一年級這個階段"},{"start":14399.83,"end":14401.83,"text":"有些孩子在幼兒園時被鑑定"},{"start":14401.83,"end":14403.83,"text":"到了要升小學重新鑑定的時候"},{"start":14403.83,"end":14405.83,"text":"還看不出到底屬於哪一種"},{"start":14405.83,"end":14407.83,"text":"帳別"},{"start":14407.83,"end":14409.83,"text":"所以呢他為了不要讓孩子"},{"start":14409.83,"end":14411.83,"text":"因為還沒有確定類別就失去特教資源"},{"start":14411.83,"end":14413.83,"text":"所以會讓他們在"},{"start":14413.83,"end":14415.83,"text":"先接受特教之詞"},{"start":14415.83,"end":14417.83,"text":"一年之後再重新鑑定"},{"start":14417.83,"end":14419.83,"text":"那後來呢我們再發現這些資料"},{"start":14419.83,"end":14421.83,"text":"大概有六成都會被鑑定為特殊教育學生"},{"start":14421.83,"end":14423.83,"text":"那我想要釐清一個重點"},{"start":14423.83,"end":14425.83,"text":"就是說這個邏輯上面"},{"start":14425.83,"end":14427.83,"text":"我覺得有"},{"start":14427.07,"end":14429.07,"text":"荒謬的地方"},{"start":14429.07,"end":14431.07,"text":"就是說他會給他特教生的支持"},{"start":14431.07,"end":14433.07,"text":"那我想問"},{"start":14433.07,"end":14435.07,"text":"特教生的支持是"},{"start":14435.07,"end":14437.07,"text":"等於是說我們有給他"},{"start":14437.07,"end":14439.07,"text":"IEP嗎我們有因為這樣子的人數"},{"start":14439.07,"end":14441.07,"text":"去縮減"},{"start":14441.07,"end":14443.07,"text":"班級的人數嗎"},{"start":14443.07,"end":14445.07,"text":"我們有提供我們有增加"},{"start":14445.07,"end":14447.07,"text":"特教老師嗎如果都沒有的話"},{"start":14447.07,"end":14449.07,"text":"那個支持到底是什麼"},{"start":14449.07,"end":14451.07,"text":"只是讓現場更混亂"},{"start":14450.6,"end":14452.6,"text":"剛剛委員所問的"},{"start":14452.6,"end":14454.6,"text":"他是一次生跟非一次生"},{"start":14454.6,"end":14456.6,"text":"大概有三個重點"},{"start":14456.6,"end":14458.6,"text":"剛才的捶詢"},{"start":14458.6,"end":14460.6,"text":"我們會問這個縣市"},{"start":14460.6,"end":14462.6,"text":"因為每個縣市在特定的"},{"start":14462.6,"end":14464.6,"text":"他們的資源"},{"start":14464.6,"end":14466.6,"text":"或相關的認定上"},{"start":14466.6,"end":14468.6,"text":"以及剛剛委員講在"},{"start":14468.6,"end":14470.6,"text":"跨級的時候"},{"start":14470.6,"end":14472.6,"text":"有這樣的一個顧慮"},{"start":14472.6,"end":14474.6,"text":"也有他們的考慮"},{"start":14474.6,"end":14476.6,"text":"但是剛剛委員的三問"},{"start":14476.6,"end":14478.6,"text":"我們會來就教相關的縣市政府"},{"start":14478.6,"end":14480.6,"text":"7天內會跟委員回報"},{"start":14480.6,"end":14482.6,"text":"好因為我想這個我自己看"},{"start":14482.6,"end":14484.6,"text":"我覺得可能存在三個問題"},{"start":14484.6,"end":14486.6,"text":"鑑定的速度不夠快跨階段的銜接"},{"start":14486.6,"end":14488.6,"text":"也不夠細緻特教人力"},{"start":14488.6,"end":14490.6,"text":"也沒有跟著學生的實際需求"},{"start":14490.6,"end":14492.6,"text":"來去做增加"},{"start":14492.6,"end":14494.6,"text":"所以這個部分的話請你們"},{"start":14494.6,"end":14496.6,"text":"來了解一下這到底是做得好還是做得不好"},{"start":14496.6,"end":14498.6,"text":"因為我想不管是普特龍和"},{"start":14498.6,"end":14500.6,"text":"一般生的孩子要好好被照顧"},{"start":14500.6,"end":14502.6,"text":"特教生的孩子的需求也要被好好照顧"},{"start":14502.6,"end":14504.6,"text":"沒有一個孩子應該要被"},{"start":14504.6,"end":14506.6,"text":"這樣子失去了"},{"start":14506.6,"end":14508.6,"text":"那最後一個問題"},{"start":14508.6,"end":14510.6,"text":"再講普特龍和的現場"},{"start":14510.6,"end":14512.6,"text":"我們在普特龍和的現場"},{"start":14512.6,"end":14514.6,"text":"其實我們都非常清楚的知道我們少子化"},{"start":14514.6,"end":14516.6,"text":"但是我們的特教生的比例"},{"start":14516.6,"end":14518.6,"text":"其實是越來越高"},{"start":14518.6,"end":14520.6,"text":"我們安置率高不代表龍和教育是成功的"},{"start":14520.6,"end":14522.6,"text":"所以呢我希望就是說"},{"start":14522.6,"end"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其實在政策上"},{"start":20191.72,"end":20193.72,"text":"也已經初步這個方向"},{"start":20193.72,"end":20195.72,"text":"那我們建議"},{"start":20195.72,"end":20197.72,"text":"可以並同"},{"start":20197.72,"end":20199.72,"text":"大學還有專科學校法"},{"start":20199.72,"end":20201.72,"text":"並同一起來處理"},{"start":20201.72,"end":20203.72,"text":"那麼它有它的一致性"},{"start":20203.72,"end":20205.72,"text":"那建請委員會參考"},{"start":20205.72,"end":20207.72,"text":"補充完畢"},{"start":20208.93,"end":20210.93,"text":"好 那接下來請委員"},{"start":20210.93,"end":20212.93,"text":"委員有沒有要說明"},{"start":20213.95,"end":20215.95,"text":"好 國務卿委員"},{"start":20215.61,"end":20217.61,"text":"好 第58條"},{"start":20217.61,"end":20219.61,"text":"那最主要是這個高中時刻"},{"start":20219.61,"end":20221.61,"text":"課程已經高度依賴這個數位的"},{"start":20221.61,"end":20223.61,"text":"資訊 那如果沒有把那個電腦"},{"start":20223.61,"end":20225.61,"text":"的資訊納入 我是"},{"start":20225.61,"end":20227.61,"text":"特別在我的版本裡面其實也有提到"},{"start":20227.61,"end":20229.61,"text":"這個啦 雖然今天沒有並案審查"},{"start":20229.61,"end":20231.61,"text":"但是實際上"},{"start":20231.61,"end":20233.61,"text":"對於所謂的弱勢學生比較容易"},{"start":20233.61,"end":20235.61,"text":"面臨所謂的這個數位的"},{"start":20235.61,"end":20237.61,"text":"落差 那我當然也是主張"},{"start":20237.61,"end":20239.61,"text":"可以這個明文化 那保障這一類"},{"start":20239.61,"end":20241.61,"text":"的這個基本的一個"},{"start":20241.61,"end":20243.61,"text":"條件可以得到一個支持"},{"start":20243.61,"end":20245.61,"text":"那另外"},{"start":20245.61,"end":20247.61,"text":"就是目前還款的這個階段"},{"start":20247.61,"end":20249.61,"text":"的這個協助還是依賴這個"},{"start":20249.61,"end":20251.61,"text":"行政的措施喔 所以如果將這個"},{"start":20251.61,"end":20253.61,"text":"還款的協助措施也納入本"},{"start":20253.61,"end":20255.61,"text":"模法來授權的"},{"start":20255.61,"end":20257.61,"text":"一個範圍 應該"},{"start":20257.61,"end":20259.61,"text":"也可以比較有延續性"},{"start":20259.61,"end":20261.61,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":20263.42,"end":20265.42,"text":"好 謝謝 再來陳秀芭委員"},{"start":20265.42,"end":20267.42,"text":"謝謝主席喔 在第58條"},{"start":20267.42,"end":20269.42,"text":"的這部分呢 我提的修正動議"},{"start":20269.42,"end":20271.42,"text":"就主要就是針對學生"},{"start":20271.42,"end":20273.42,"text":"在新增加在電腦通訊"},{"start":20273.42,"end":20275.42,"text":"網路通訊使用費"},{"start":20275.42,"end":20277.42,"text":"以及還有一個"},{"start":20277.42,"end":20279.42,"text":"還款協助措施喔"},{"start":20279.42,"end":20281.42,"text":"希望說我們協助到學生的部分"},{"start":20281.42,"end":20283.42,"text":"除了說他本身"},{"start":20283.42,"end":20285.42,"text":"在貸款的部分"},{"start":20285.42,"end":20287.42,"text":"還有後續整個還款"},{"start":20287.42,"end":20289.42,"text":"的協助 我們是有方案的"},{"start":20289.42,"end":20291.42,"text":"因為每個學生的可能"},{"start":20291.42,"end":20293.42,"text":"狀態不太一樣"},{"start":20293.42,"end":20295.42,"text":"那所以說我們相關的"},{"start":20295.42,"end":20297.42,"text":"還款協助措施 對他日後"},{"start":20297.42,"end":20299.42,"text":"他本身對這個還款的規劃"},{"start":20299.42,"end":20301.42,"text":"我想這個這樣的協助也是"},{"start":20301.42,"end":20303.42,"text":"很必要的喔 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可以幫助"},{"start":20338.53,"end":20340.53,"text":"學生及家庭減輕"},{"start":20340.53,"end":20342.53,"text":"生活壓力喔"},{"start":20342.53,"end":20344.53,"text":"這句話其實是現在的"},{"start":20344.53,"end":20346.53,"text":"總統在2009年"},{"start":20346.53,"end":20348.53,"text":"擔任立委的時候"},{"start":20348.53,"end":20350.53,"text":"拜訪當時的教育部長"},{"start":20350.53,"end":20352.53,"text":"鄭瑞城所提出來的"},{"start":20352.53,"end":20354.53,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":20354.53,"end":20356.53,"text":"是希望當時他是"},{"start":20356.53,"end":20358.53,"text":"要求把就學貸款利率調為"},{"start":20358.53,"end":20360.53,"text":"零啦 來延緩這個"},{"start":20360.53,"end":20362.53,"text":"還款期限3年"},{"start":20362.53,"end":20364.53,"text":"讓大學生安心就學"},{"start":20364.53,"end":20366.53,"text":"那事實上我們是更進一步"},{"start":20366.53,"end":20368.53,"text":"希望能夠落實這個"},{"start":20368.53,"end":20370.53,"text":"賴總統最近講的"},{"start":20370.53,"end":20372.53,"text":"讓年輕人輕裝上陣"},{"start":20372.53,"end":20374.53,"text":"這樣的一個主張"},{"start":20374.53,"end":20376.53,"text":"那更何況近年來由於少子化"},{"start":20376.53,"end":20378.53,"text":"我們的學生的人數"},{"start":20378.53,"end":20380.53,"text":"大幅的下降"},{"start":20380.53,"end":20382.53,"text":"那就學貸款的申請人數也大幅下降"},{"start":20382.53,"end":20384.53,"text":"所以這時候我認為教育部"},{"start":20384.53,"end":20386.53,"text":"還是行有餘力能夠"},{"start":20386.53,"end":20388.53,"text":"擴大透過"},{"start":20388.53,"end":20390.53,"text":"減輕學貸的壓力"},{"start":20390.53,"end":20392.53,"text":"這樣的一個方式"},{"start":20392.53,"end":20394.53,"text":"能夠來幫助我們的年輕人出社會以後"},{"start":20394.53,"end":20396.53,"text":"真真正正可以做到輕裝上陣"},{"start":20396.53,"end":20398.53,"text":"以上"},{"start":20403.19,"end":20405.19,"text":"好 謝謝 還有委員嗎"},{"start":20405.19,"end":20407.19,"text":"我是要委員"},{"start":20407.98,"end":20409.98,"text":"好 這個條文"},{"start":20409.98,"end":20411.98,"text":"因為比較遺憾的是"},{"start":20411.98,"end":20413.98,"text":"剛剛秀寶委員是用"},{"start":20413.98,"end":20415.98,"text":"修正動力的東西提出"},{"start":20415.98,"end":20417.98,"text":"因為我們六位委員的"},{"start":20417.98,"end":20419.98,"text":"版本 執政黨版本"},{"start":20419.98,"end":20421.98,"text":"並沒有被排進來"},{"start":20421.98,"end":20423.98,"text":"所以我們只能夠用修正動力的方式"},{"start":20423.98,"end":20425.98,"text":"內容就如剛剛"},{"start":20425.98,"end":20427.98,"text":"修正文字是秀寶委員有跟大家說明"},{"start":20427.98,"end":20429.98,"text":"但是這個差別"},{"start":20429.98,"end":20431.98,"text":"就在這個利息的部分"},{"start":20431.98,"end":20433.98,"text":"這一次呢"},{"start":20433.98,"end":20435.98,"text":"我們在新的政策"},{"start":20435.98,"end":20437.98,"text":"第一個我要講喔"},{"start":20439.02,"end":20441.02,"text":"對於我們的就學貸款"},{"start":20441.02,"end":20443.02,"text":"目前"},{"start":20443.02,"end":20445.02,"text":"有申請"},{"start":20445.02,"end":20447.02,"text":"大概是17.5萬人受賄"},{"start":20447.02,"end":20449.02,"text":"大概占"},{"start":20449.02,"end":20451.02,"text":"17% 就是有申請的話"},{"start":20451.02,"end":20453.02,"text":"都享有我們現在的"},{"start":20453.02,"end":20455.02,"text":"就學貸款的優惠"},{"start":20455.02,"end":20457.02,"text":"而現在我們在"},{"start":20457.02,"end":20459.02,"text":"今年9月開始"},{"start":20459.02,"end":20461.02,"text":"我們已經公布的政策"},{"start":20461.02,"end":20463.02,"text":"是三個面向"},{"start":20463.02,"end":20465.02,"text":"第一個 在學期間全面免息"},{"start":20465.02,"end":20467.02,"text":"第二個 還款的期限呢"},{"start":20467.02,"end":20469.02,"text":"寬限的期限延長至畢業後兩年"},{"start":20469.02,"end":20471.02,"text":"第三個還款的利率"},{"start":20471.02,"end":20473.02,"text":"降1%"},{"start":20473.02,"end":20475.02,"text":"到0.775%"},{"start":20475.02,"end":20477.02,"text":"這是這一次"},{"start":20477.02,"end":20479.02,"text":"行政院所提出來的方案"},{"start":20479.02,"end":20481.02,"text":"而比較過去"},{"start":20481.02,"end":20483.02,"text":"長年對於貸款的優惠"},{"start":20483.02,"end":20485.02,"text":"或是期限的展延"},{"start":20485.02,"end":20487.02,"text":"都是動用我們"},{"start":20487.02,"end":20489.02,"text":"行政部門"},{"start":20489.02,"end":20491.02,"text":"在相關的配套"},{"start":20491.02,"end":20493.02,"text":"資法裡頭"},{"start":20493.02,"end":20495.02,"text":"執行的方案"},{"start":20495.02,"end":20497.02,"text":"在相關的配套資法裡頭執行就可以了"},{"start":20497.02,"end":20499.02,"text":"它不需要"},{"start":20499.02,"end":20501.02,"text":"細緻到"},{"start":20501.02,"end":20503.02,"text":"把比例 把執行"},{"start":20503.02,"end":20505.02,"text":"面向強制入法"},{"start":20505.02,"end":20507.02,"text":"所以過去的做法"},{"start":20507.02,"end":20509.02,"text":"我們的行政辦法可以處理"},{"start":20509.02,"end":20511.02,"text":"編列相關的對應的預算"},{"start":20511.71,"end":20513.71,"text":"這是原本的做法"},{"start":20513.71,"end":20515.71,"text":"那現在在一黨的委員們"},{"start":20515.71,"end":20517.71,"text":"所提案的幾個版本"},{"start":20517.71,"end":20521.71,"text":"它就跟過去往常的做法是不同的"},{"start":20521.71,"end":20523.71,"text":"它特別要用修法的方式"},{"start":20523.71,"end":20525.71,"text":"把它定死"},{"start":20525.71,"end":20527.71,"text":"所以我覺得在"},{"start":20527.71,"end":20529.71,"text":"這個做法上 是不是需要"},{"start":20529.71,"end":20531.71,"text":"用修法 我是覺得"},{"start":20531.71,"end":20533.71,"text":"有待相確 我個人是保留的"},{"start":20533.71,"end":20535.71,"text":"而且不應當"},{"start":20535.71,"end":20537.71,"text":"用 我一再的強調"},{"start":20537.71,"end":20539.71,"text":"我們用片面修法的方式"},{"start":20539.71,"end":20541.71,"text":"去增加政府預算的支出"},{"start":20541.71,"end":20543.71,"text":"去侵害了行政權限的預算權"},{"start":20543.71,"end":20545.71,"text":"我想這真的要再三審酌"},{"start":20548.72,"end":20550.72,"text":"那 所以個人是反對強制入法"},{"start":20550.72,"end":20552.72,"text":"那如果要入法的話"},{"start":20552.72,"end":20554.72,"text":"那就請參賽"},{"start":20554.72,"end":20556.72,"text":"執政黨委員"},{"start":20556.72,"end":20558.72,"text":"我們六位委員 今天的案子沒有排進來"},{"start":20558.72,"end":20560.72,"text":"但是剛剛"},{"start":20560.72,"end":20562.72,"text":"陳修法委員的文字 修正動議的文字"},{"start":20562.72,"end":20564.72,"text":"就是我們共同的意見"},{"start":20564.72,"end":20566.72,"text":"他以一個原則性的"},{"start":20566.72,"end":20568.72,"text":"修法文字"},{"start":20568.72,"end":20570.72,"text":"授權行政部門來執行"},{"start":20570.72,"end":20572.72,"text":"所以針對"},{"start":20572.72,"end":20574.72,"text":"還款協助措施"},{"start":20574.72,"end":20576.72,"text":"跟其他因金遵循的方向等等"},{"start":20577.49,"end":20579.49,"text":"然後政府可以依學生家庭所得"},{"start":20579.49,"end":20581.49,"text":"或經濟特殊的狀況"},{"start":20581.49,"end":20583.49,"text":"去做必要的處理"},{"start":20583.49,"end":20585.49,"text":"授權教育部門"},{"start":20585.49,"end":20587.49,"text":"去處置就好"},{"start":20587.49,"end":20589.49,"text":"所以我對於這個修法"},{"start":20589.49,"end":20591.49,"text":"如果真的要放"},{"start":20591.49,"end":20593.49,"text":"請參賽陳修法委員"},{"start":20593.49,"end":20595.49,"text":"我們民進黨級委員所提的"},{"start":20595.49,"end":20597.49,"text":"修正文字 修正動議"},{"start":20597.49,"end":20599.49,"text":"那執政幾位委員"},{"start":20599.49,"end":20601.49,"text":"現在強行入法"},{"start":20601.49,"end":20603.49,"text":"細節把它入法"},{"start":20603.49,"end":20605.49,"text":"我真的個人表達反對的意見"},{"start":20605.49,"end":20607.49,"text":"請大家公決"},{"start":20610.15,"end":20612.15,"text":"吳立華委員"},{"start":20612.72,"end":20614.72,"text":"謝謝主席召委"},{"start":20614.72,"end":20616.72,"text":"我一樣"},{"start":20616.72,"end":20618.72,"text":"我發言是因為"},{"start":20618.72,"end":20620.72,"text":"那個版本沒有進來"},{"start":20621.74,"end":20623.74,"text":"那我這邊也沒有去做"},{"start":20624.97,"end":20626.97,"text":"這個修正動議"},{"start":20626.97,"end":20628.97,"text":"但是我已經在"},{"start":20630.22,"end":20632.22,"text":"早上的質詢當中"},{"start":20632.22,"end":20634.22,"text":"有特別就這一些細項"},{"start":20634.22,"end":20636.22,"text":"來去"},{"start":20636.22,"end":20638.22,"text":"跟教育部做質詢關切"},{"start":20638.22,"end":20640.22,"text":"那我是"},{"start":20641.47,"end":20643.47,"text":"意見是表達是說"},{"start":20643.47,"end":20645.47,"text":"不論是關於學貸的部分"},{"start":20645.47,"end":20647.47,"text":"或者是做助學的部分"},{"start":20647.47,"end":20649.47,"text":"現在"},{"start":20649.47,"end":20651.47,"text":"如果就學貸款"},{"start":20651.47,"end":20653.47,"text":"辦法或弱勢學生的助學"},{"start":20653.47,"end":20655.47,"text":"計畫辦法"},{"start":20655.47,"end":20657.47,"text":"能夠去處理"},{"start":20657.47,"end":20659.47,"text":"那我是希望說"},{"start":20659.47,"end":20661.47,"text":"因為項目可能會越來越多"},{"start":20661.47,"end":20663.47,"text":"就像每一次"},{"start":20663.47,"end":20665.47,"text":"一發布什麼政策"},{"start":20665.47,"end":20667.47,"text":"我們就會接到一堆電話"},{"start":20667.47,"end":20669.47,"text":"說辣掉什麼 辣掉什麼"},{"start":20669.47,"end":20671.47,"text":"那其實我也是覺得說"},{"start":20671.47,"end":20673.47,"text":"如果最快速的方法"},{"start":20673.47,"end":20675.47,"text":"就是我們保留一個彈性"},{"start":20675.47,"end":20677.47,"text":"要求行政單位"},{"start":20677.47,"end":20679.47,"text":"能夠就現有的這些"},{"start":20679.47,"end":20681.47,"text":"辦法"},{"start":20681.47,"end":20683.47,"text":"很快速的去處理"},{"start":20683.47,"end":20685.47,"text":"那我想這個部分"},{"start":20685.47,"end":20687.47,"text":"也是大家所樂見的"},{"start":20687.47,"end":20689.47,"text":"所以我在這邊做"},{"start":20689.47,"end":20691.47,"text":"這樣的一個意見表達"},{"start":20691.47,"end":20693.47,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":20692.99,"end":20694.99,"text":"好 江若琳委員"},{"start":20699.91,"end":20701.91,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":20701.91,"end":20703.91,"text":"那因為這個部分我也有提案"},{"start":20703.91,"end":20705.91,"text":"那我自己的想法也是說"},{"start":20705.91,"end":20707.91,"text":"因為其實我覺得大家都是考量到"},{"start":20707.91,"end":20709.91,"text":"學生現場需要協助"},{"start":20709.91,"end":20711.91,"text":"然後大家其實都很照顧學生的一些權益"},{"start":20711.91,"end":20713.91,"text":"也很照顧到家庭"},{"start":20713.91,"end":20715.91,"text":"那我自己也是提了比較原則性的修法"},{"start":20715.91,"end":20717.91,"text":"因為畢竟助學措施"},{"start":20717.91,"end":20719.91,"text":"可能會隨著時間的滾動"},{"start":20719.91,"end":20721.91,"text":"會有變化"},{"start":20721.91,"end":20723.91,"text":"所以我會認為這些定地於子法"},{"start":20723.91,"end":20725.91,"text":"或是用計畫方式來做滾動的調整"},{"start":20725.91,"end":20727.91,"text":"會比我們定在魔法上面"},{"start":20727.91,"end":20729.91,"text":"會有靈動性也會更積極"},{"start":20729.91,"end":20731.91,"text":"所以我自己會希望說"},{"start":20731.91,"end":20733.91,"text":"我們就是把它定在原則性的"},{"start":20733.91,"end":20735.91,"text":"魔法上面就好"},{"start":20735.91,"end":20737.91,"text":"讓我們未來都會更有彈性"},{"start":20737.91,"end":20739.91,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":20741.12,"end":20743.12,"text":"好 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跟行政部門商議"},{"start":21025.59,"end":21027.59,"text":"第二個 要找出"},{"start":21027.59,"end":21029.59,"text":"妥適合理之裁員"},{"start":21029.59,"end":21031.59,"text":"顯然在立黨委員"},{"start":21031.59,"end":21033.59,"text":"的這個提案"},{"start":21033.59,"end":21035.59,"text":"剛剛教育部門早上的詢答"},{"start":21035.59,"end":21037.59,"text":"等一下也可以讓次長"},{"start":21037.59,"end":21039.59,"text":"來回應"},{"start":21039.59,"end":21041.59,"text":"應當是沒有跟行政部門"},{"start":21041.59,"end":21043.59,"text":"有充分的共識"},{"start":21043.59,"end":21045.59,"text":"那在裁員合理的裁員在哪裡呢"},{"start":21045.59,"end":21047.59,"text":"提案的委員顯然可能"},{"start":21047.59,"end":21049.59,"text":"也沒有這樣子的權力跟能力"},{"start":21049.59,"end":21051.59,"text":"去提出"},{"start":21051.59,"end":21053.59,"text":"合適之裁員補充"},{"start":21053.59,"end":21055.59,"text":"所以真的依法論法"},{"start":21055.59,"end":21057.59,"text":"我們都不應當來做"},{"start":21057.59,"end":21059.59,"text":"為了入法而入法"},{"start":21059.59,"end":21061.59,"text":"而造成實質幫助學生的利益"},{"start":21061.59,"end":21063.59,"text":"他反而更不效率"},{"start":21063.59,"end":21065.59,"text":"所以請大家多多的斟酌"},{"start":21065.59,"end":21067.59,"text":"我們在場委員這邊"},{"start":21067.59,"end":21069.59,"text":"我想立法秀寶"},{"start":21072.17,"end":21074.17,"text":"預期"},{"start":21074.17,"end":21076.17,"text":"思想"},{"start":21076.17,"end":21078.17,"text":"我們都表達是"},{"start":21077.57,"end":21079.57,"text":"如果要改"},{"start":21079.57,"end":21081.57,"text":"本來是維持現行條文就可以了"},{"start":21081.57,"end":21083.57,"text":"那如果要改"},{"start":21083.57,"end":21085.57,"text":"行政院的這個58條的建議文字"},{"start":21085.57,"end":21087.57,"text":"是不是再讓"},{"start":21087.57,"end":21089.57,"text":"這個教育部回答一下"},{"start":21089.57,"end":21091.57,"text":"我們再做再商量一下"},{"start":21091.57,"end":21093.57,"text":"再做最終的決定好嗎"},{"start":21093.57,"end":21095.57,"text":"因為好像沒有回應"},{"start":21095.71,"end":21097.71,"text":"你要回應嗎"},{"start":21097.71,"end":21099.71,"text":"可以啊可以啊"},{"start":21099.71,"end":21101.71,"text":"張委跟各位委員報告"},{"start":21101.71,"end":21103.71,"text":"就是說因為各位可以看到"},{"start":21103.71,"end":21105.71,"text":"現行法58條"},{"start":21105.71,"end":21107.71,"text":"他事實上已經有提到說"},{"start":21107.71,"end":21109.71,"text":"有關就學代管的條件"},{"start":21109.71,"end":21111.71,"text":"額度項目權利入籍"},{"start":21111.71,"end":21113.71,"text":"其他應遵循事項"},{"start":21113.71,"end":21115.71,"text":"由中央主管機關定資"},{"start":21115.71,"end":21117.71,"text":"所以過去"},{"start":21117.71,"end":21119.71,"text":"不管是委員關心的寬限期的問題"},{"start":21119.71,"end":21121.71,"text":"或是利息"},{"start":21121.71,"end":21123.71,"text":"由政府來補貼多少的部分"},{"start":21123.71,"end":21125.71,"text":"事實上我們都是在"},{"start":21125.71,"end":21127.71,"text":"就學代管辦法裡面"},{"start":21127.71,"end":21129.71,"text":"就可以來實施"},{"start":21129.71,"end":21131.71,"text":"剛剛委員有提出來關心學生的"},{"start":21131.71,"end":21133.71,"text":"未來的繁榮負擔"},{"start":21133.71,"end":21135.71,"text":"我們在兼顧學生的權益"},{"start":21135.71,"end":21137.71,"text":"跟我們整個財政"},{"start":21137.71,"end":21139.71,"text":"我想教育部門"},{"start":21139.71,"end":21141.71,"text":"我們可以根據現行的法"},{"start":21141.71,"end":21143.71,"text":"就可以朝委員你們提出來的"},{"start":21143.71,"end":21145.71,"text":"期待我們就可以來操作"},{"start":21145.71,"end":21147.71,"text":"所以是不是可以讓我們"},{"start":21147.71,"end":21149.71,"text":"以現行法的部分"},{"start":21149.71,"end":21151.71,"text":"我們以在斟酌整個"},{"start":21151.71,"end":21153.71,"text":"財務狀況"},{"start":21153.71,"end":21155.71,"text":"學生還要再負擔0.775"},{"start":21155.71,"end":21157.71,"text":"未來如果說"},{"start":21157.71,"end":21159.71,"text":"在學生的一個負擔部分"},{"start":21159.71,"end":21161.71,"text":"我們再持續的做精進"},{"start":21161.71,"end":21163.71,"text":"這樣其實不用修法也可以做到"},{"start":21163.71,"end":21165.71,"text":"這樣會不會讓我們有多一些彈性"},{"start":21165.71,"end":21167.71,"text":"包含寬限期也是一樣"},{"start":21167.71,"end":21169.71,"text":"寬限期事實上我們"},{"start":21169.71,"end":21171.71,"text":"也是可以直接在就學代管辦法"},{"start":21171.71,"end":21173.71,"text":"在目前的法規授權就可以"},{"start":21173.71,"end":21175.71,"text":"做了"},{"start":21175.71,"end":21177.71,"text":"行政單位有一些彈性"},{"start":21177.71,"end":21179.71,"text":"以上的補充"},{"start":21182.17,"end":21184.17,"text":"好,我們都這樣委員"},{"start":21185.49,"end":21187.49,"text":"我想在座不管是"},{"start":21187.49,"end":21189.49,"text":"朝野的立法委員"},{"start":21189.49,"end":21191.49,"text":"還有我們在座的官員包括朝委"},{"start":21191.49,"end":21193.49,"text":"我想出發點都是一致的"},{"start":21193.99,"end":21195.99,"text":"因為我們已經真實看到現在"},{"start":21195.99,"end":21197.99,"text":"年輕人的困境跟處境"},{"start":21198.18,"end":21200.18,"text":"我們需要為他們分擔"},{"start":21200.18,"end":21202.18,"text":"政府有這個責任跟義務"},{"start":21202.18,"end":21204.18,"text":"那今天說實在的話"},{"start":21204.18,"end":21206.18,"text":"今天這個修法本身"},{"start":21206.18,"end":21208.18,"text":"那其實就是"},{"start":21208.18,"end":21210.18,"text":"窮也不能窮學生"},{"start":21210.18,"end":21212.18,"text":"苦也不能苦青年"},{"start":21212.18,"end":21214.18,"text":"所以我覺得行政機關"},{"start":21214.18,"end":21216.18,"text":"可以把它當做一個非常正面的事情"},{"start":21216.18,"end":21218.18,"text":"就我們大家一起來"},{"start":21218.18,"end":21220.18,"text":"把年輕人扛起來"},{"start":21220.18,"end":21222.18,"text":"這一點我覺得非常的重要"},{"start":21222.18,"end":21224.18,"text":"那過去其實"},{"start":21224.18,"end":21226.18,"text":"類似的狀況也很多"},{"start":21226.18,"end":21228.18,"text":"我們希望能夠在現在"},{"start":21228.18,"end":21230.18,"text":"尤其在少子化的過程當中"},{"start":21230.18,"end":21232.18,"text":"你也發現"},{"start":21232.18,"end":21234.18,"text":"那親屬總統也很重視"},{"start":21234.18,"end":21236.18,"text":"他提出很多的政策"},{"start":21236.18,"end":21238.18,"text":"那當然那些政策提出來"},{"start":21238.18,"end":21240.18,"text":"坦白講哪一樣政策提出來"},{"start":21240.18,"end":21242.18,"text":"沒有國家預算的問題"},{"start":21242.18,"end":21244.18,"text":"沒有所謂國家經費的問題都有"},{"start":21244.18,"end":21246.18,"text":"但是我們切重時弊"},{"start":21246.18,"end":21248.18,"text":"覺得最需要幫助的部分"},{"start":21248.18,"end":21250.18,"text":"我們應該要提出幫助"},{"start":21250.18,"end":21252.18,"text":"那我覺得有時候我也必須講一點"},{"start":21252.18,"end":21254.18,"text":"自己的感慨"},{"start":21254.18,"end":21256.18,"text":"在野黨立委"},{"start":21256.18,"end":21258.18,"text":"在為民生再去爭取的時候"},{"start":21258.18,"end":21260.18,"text":"經常是走在最前面"},{"start":21260.18,"end":21262.18,"text":"那走到最前面的時候"},{"start":21262.18,"end":21264.18,"text":"常常也是面臨到包括我們"},{"start":21264.18,"end":21266.18,"text":"執政黨的委員"},{"start":21266.18,"end":21268.18,"text":"有很多的一些指教"},{"start":21268.18,"end":21270.18,"text":"包括說當時還稅於民"},{"start":21270.18,"end":21272.18,"text":"還假於民"},{"start":21272.18,"end":21274.18,"text":"發現都是在野黨立委"},{"start":21274.18,"end":21276.18,"text":"今天為民之先苦民所苦"},{"start":21276.18,"end":21278.18,"text":"我們提出了很多的政策"},{"start":21278.18,"end":21280.18,"text":"當時甚至抱歉"},{"start":21280.18,"end":21282.18,"text":"我在還稅於民爭取的時候"},{"start":21282.18,"end":21284.18,"text":"有可能是有理由"},{"start":21284.18,"end":21286.18,"text":"可是一旦最後通過之後"},{"start":21286.18,"end":21288.18,"text":"發現執政黨"},{"start":21288.18,"end":21290.18,"text":"包括執政黨跟執政黨委員"},{"start":21290.18,"end":21292.18,"text":"也是歡天喜地在慶祝"},{"start":21292.18,"end":21294.18,"text":"所以這是真的造福人民的"},{"start":21294.18,"end":21296.18,"text":"一個善舉"},{"start":21296.18,"end":21298.18,"text":"跟一個公益之舉"},{"start":21298.18,"end":21300.18,"text":"所以我覺得有些事情"},{"start":21300.18,"end":21302.18,"text":"其實我們應該要把時間線拉長"},{"start":21302.18,"end":21304.18,"text":"今天回到最根本的問題"},{"start":21304.18,"end":21306.18,"text":"今天以國民黨黨版來說的話"},{"start":21306.18,"end":21308.18,"text":"貸款利息由政府"},{"start":21308.18,"end":21310.18,"text":"編列預算全額補貼"},{"start":21310.18,"end":21312.18,"text":"到底有沒有辦法實現"},{"start":21312.18,"end":21314.18,"text":"今天賴清德總統自己揭示的"},{"start":21314.18,"end":21316.18,"text":"讓年輕人輕裝上陣"},{"start":21316.18,"end":21318.18,"text":"減少年輕人出社會的時候"},{"start":21318.18,"end":21320.18,"text":"他面臨學代的"},{"start":21320.18,"end":21322.18,"text":"這樣一個強大的財務壓力"},{"start":21322.18,"end":21324.18,"text":"所以這樣的進步立法"},{"start":21324.18,"end":21326.18,"text":"我認為說相關單位"},{"start":21326.18,"end":21328.18,"text":"應該還是要以正面態度看待"},{"start":21328.18,"end":21330.18,"text":"當然有不同意見"},{"start":21330.18,"end":21332.18,"text":"其實本來就是我們今天審查討論的一個"},{"start":21332.18,"end":21334.18,"text":"大家交換意見的重點"},{"start":21334.18,"end":21336.18,"text":"那如果真的有意見"},{"start":21336.18,"end":21338.18,"text":"大家沒有辦法立刻達成共識的話"},{"start":21338.18,"end":21340.18,"text":"其實我們委員會審查也是第一階段"},{"start":21340.18,"end":21342.18,"text":"那到時候保留做院會再來討論"},{"start":21342.18,"end":21344.18,"text":"我們還是有很多交換意見的機會"},{"start":21344.18,"end":21346.18,"text":"以上"},{"start":21350.31,"end":21352.31,"text":"我還沒講"},{"start":21352.91,"end":21354.91,"text":"各位行為員"},{"start":21355.27,"end":21357.27,"text":"我想現在的這個目前的學代"},{"start":21357.27,"end":21359.27,"text":"其實已經有這個授權辦法"},{"start":21359.27,"end":21361.27,"text":"其實讓教育部來制定"},{"start":21361.27,"end":21363.27,"text":"那剛剛其實我們多數"},{"start":21363.27,"end":21365.27,"text":"執政黨委員跟行政部門的一些意見"},{"start":21365.27,"end":21367.27,"text":"如果召委或是主席"},{"start":21367.27,"end":21369.27,"text":"有不同意的話"},{"start":21369.27,"end":21371.27,"text":"那我認為這一條是不是就保留"},{"start":21371.27,"end":21373.27,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":21375.06,"end":21377.06,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":21377.06,"end":21379.06,"text":"我發言啦"},{"start":21379.06,"end":21381.06,"text":"因為先不主持"},{"start":21381.06,"end":21383.06,"text":"那我想也是因為許多的學生團體"},{"start":21383.06,"end":21385.06,"text":"一直不斷的在倡議"},{"start":21385.06,"end":21387.06,"text":"那我想這個部分還是希望政府能夠看到"},{"start":21387.06,"end":21389.06,"text":"我們當然相信政府現在目前的制定政策"},{"start":21389.06,"end":21391.06,"text":"已經有在做部分"},{"start":21391.06,"end":21393.06,"text":"但是就是因為"},{"start":21393.06,"end":21395.06,"text":"沒有呼應到整個學生團體的一個需求"},{"start":21395.06,"end":21397.06,"text":"所以學生團體甚至也召開記者會"},{"start":21397.06,"end":21399.06,"text":"希望我們能夠協助這個部分"},{"start":21399.06,"end":21401.06,"text":"所以今天才會在討論這個部分"},{"start":21401.06,"end":21403.06,"text":"那能夠幫他們能夠"},{"start":21403.06,"end":21405.06,"text":"能夠爭取更多的權益"},{"start":21405.06,"end":21407.06,"text":"但是我覺得"},{"start":21407.06,"end":21409.06,"text":"我想要拋出一個議題"},{"start":21409.06,"end":21411.06,"text":"也希望教育部好好想一下"},{"start":21411.67,"end":21413.67,"text":"有一個議員"},{"start":21413.66,"end":21415.66,"text":"他提出排2"},{"start":21417.22,"end":21419.22,"text":"那我認為有一些"},{"start":21419.22,"end":21421.22,"text":"不管是教育現場"},{"start":21421.22,"end":21423.22,"text":"比較狀況非常糟糕的"},{"start":21423.22,"end":21425.22,"text":"同學"},{"start":21425.22,"end":21427.22,"text":"有沒有這個機會"},{"start":21427.22,"end":21429.22,"text":"甚至他違法那當然就是一定"},{"start":21429.22,"end":21431.22,"text":"所謂排2的內容裡面"},{"start":21431.22,"end":21433.22,"text":"有一些樣態是不是有機會如果是排2"},{"start":21433.22,"end":21435.22,"text":"能夠把他納入"},{"start":21435.22,"end":21437.22,"text":"我想這也是"},{"start":21437.22,"end":21439.22,"text":"民眾所能夠樂見的"},{"start":21439.22,"end":21441.22,"text":"因為如果有一些學生"},{"start":21444.49,"end":21446.49,"text":"二列的二"},{"start":21445.96,"end":21447.96,"text":"對不起因為您的眼神"},{"start":21447.96,"end":21449.96,"text":"我覺得你好像嚇到我"},{"start":21449.96,"end":21451.96,"text":"對不起我以為是你沒有知"},{"start":21451.96,"end":21453.96,"text":"對不起對不起"},{"start":21453.96,"end":21455.96,"text":"我想說你怎麼會用那個眼神看我是"},{"start":21455.96,"end":21457.96,"text":"我講的太扯了嗎"},{"start":21457.96,"end":21459.96,"text":"原來是文字上大家還沒有"},{"start":21461.18,"end":21463.18,"text":"當然有違規違法"},{"start":21465.04,"end":21467.04,"text":"甚至是旅圈不聽影響上課"},{"start":21467.04,"end":21469.04,"text":"甚至就是整個造成"},{"start":21469.04,"end":21471.04,"text":"教育現場的困境的時候"},{"start":21471.04,"end":21473.04,"text":"這個政府不應該去"},{"start":21473.04,"end":21475.04,"text":"幫助這樣子的學生"},{"start":21475.04,"end":21477.04,"text":"那能不能有這個排2的狀況"},{"start":21477.04,"end":21479.04,"text":"能夠把他"},{"start":21479.04,"end":21481.04,"text":"列入到我們不應該去"},{"start":21481.04,"end":21483.04,"text":"讓他享受後續的一些"},{"start":21483.04,"end":21485.04,"text":"優惠福利"},{"start":21485.04,"end":21487.04,"text":"我覺得這也可以給孩子一個警惕"},{"start":21487.82,"end":21489.82,"text":"因為我們也有另外一個教育二列的現場"},{"start":21489.82,"end":21491.82,"text":"就是學生不怕"},{"start":21491.82,"end":21493.82,"text":"記警告不怕記"},{"start":21494.3,"end":21496.3,"text":"當然大學的部分"},{"start":21496.3,"end":21498.3,"text":"有所謂的退學"},{"start":21498.3,"end":21500.3,"text":"當然這個部分我都知道"},{"start":21500.3,"end":21502.3,"text":"只是我說像這種"},{"start":21502.3,"end":21504.3,"text":"福利優惠有沒有機會也有"},{"start":21504.3,"end":21506.3,"text":"排2的機制"},{"start":21506.3,"end":21508.3,"text":"出來我也希望請我們"},{"start":21508.3,"end":21510.3,"text":"我們的教育部的主管機關"},{"start":21510.3,"end":21512.3,"text":"應該能夠納入"},{"start":21512.3,"end":21514.3,"text":"以上"},{"start":21514.32,"end":21516.32,"text":"好 剛剛有委員提出保留"},{"start":21516.32,"end":21518.32,"text":"送院會處理"},{"start":21518.32,"end":21520.32,"text":"我想今天大家都非常的認真"},{"start":21520.32,"end":21522.32,"text":"而且都提出各自見解"},{"start":21522.32,"end":21524.32,"text":"因為沒有太多的交集"},{"start":21524.32,"end":21526.32,"text":"所以我們就保留送院會處理"},{"start":21528.27,"end":21530.27,"text":"好"},{"start":21558.27,"end":21560.27,"text":"這次由羅召集委員庭委做補充說明"},{"start":21570.78,"end":21572.78,"text":"好 繼續進行大學法第35條條文"},{"start":21572.78,"end":21574.78,"text":"逐條審查"},{"start":21574.78,"end":21576.78,"text":"第35條條文修正有"},{"start":21576.78,"end":21578.78,"text":"委員柯志恩等16人等16個提案"},{"start":21580.03,"end":21582.03,"text":"以及委員陳秀寶等人所提的"},{"start":21582.03,"end":21584.03,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":21584.35,"end":21586.35,"text":"以及委員吳思瑤"},{"start":21587.65,"end":21589.65,"text":"所提出的修正動議"},{"start":21589.65,"end":21591.65,"text":"以及委員羅庭委所提出的"},{"start":21591.65,"end":21593.65,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":21593.65,"end":21595.65,"text":"以上"},{"start":21596.36,"end":21598.36,"text":"請委員發言"},{"start":21598.02,"end":21600.02,"text":"謝謝 我們陳秀寶委員"},{"start":21602.57,"end":21604.57,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":21604.57,"end":21606.57,"text":"在這個部分第35條的部分"},{"start":21606.57,"end":21608.57,"text":"我提的修正動議"},{"start":21608.57,"end":21610.57,"text":"跟剛才的"},{"start":21610.57,"end":21612.57,"text":"高級中等學教育法的第58條"},{"start":21612.57,"end":21614.57,"text":"一樣就是要加入"},{"start":21614.57,"end":21616.57,"text":"現在學生他們在學習上"},{"start":21616.57,"end":21618.57,"text":"相關的就是"},{"start":21618.57,"end":21620.57,"text":"像電腦網路通訊使用費"},{"start":21620.57,"end":21622.57,"text":"以及我們後續的"},{"start":21622.57,"end":21624.57,"text":"還款協助措施這個部分"},{"start":21624.57,"end":21626.57,"text":"都應該要我們"},{"start":21626.57,"end":21628.57,"text":"有個辦法來協助"},{"start":21628.57,"end":21630.57,"text":"另外在下面我也在"},{"start":21630.57,"end":21632.57,"text":"加了就是比較特殊的狀況"},{"start":21632.57,"end":21634.57,"text":"政府應該依學生"},{"start":21634.57,"end":21636.57,"text":"家庭所得或其他"},{"start":21636.57,"end":21638.57,"text":"突發經濟不利情況"},{"start":21638.57,"end":21640.57,"text":"提供經濟不利處境學生"},{"start":21640.57,"end":21642.57,"text":"助學措施"},{"start":21642.57,"end":21644.57,"text":"其助學條件額度權利義務及其他"},{"start":21644.57,"end":21646.57,"text":"應遵循事項之"},{"start":21646.57,"end":21648.57,"text":"辦法由教育部"},{"start":21648.57,"end":21650.57,"text":"定制"},{"start":21650.57,"end":21652.57,"text":"那其實從剛才的"},{"start":21652.57,"end":21654.57,"text":"58條到現在我們要"},{"start":21654.57,"end":21656.57,"text":"講的第35條大學法第35條"},{"start":21659.19,"end":21661.19,"text":"我一直從今天早上的質詢"},{"start":21661.19,"end":21663.19,"text":"到現在我就一直強調說"},{"start":21663.19,"end":21665.19,"text":"訂定一個概括性的條文"},{"start":21665.19,"end":21667.19,"text":"就是授權給"},{"start":21667.19,"end":21669.19,"text":"教育部這邊來"},{"start":21669.19,"end":21671.19,"text":"訂相關的一些"},{"start":21671.19,"end":21673.19,"text":"辦法不要直接"},{"start":21673.19,"end":21675.19,"text":"用法律去明遞各種的樣態"},{"start":21675.19,"end":21677.19,"text":"這樣子才能"},{"start":21677.19,"end":21679.19,"text":"能夠讓相關的措施相關"},{"start":21679.19,"end":21681.19,"text":"辦法更靈活我們如果是"},{"start":21681.19,"end":21683.19,"text":"直接把所有的樣態寫在裡面"},{"start":21683.19,"end":21685.19,"text":"讓整個助學措施將化"},{"start":21685.19,"end":21687.19,"text":"有什麼不一樣的"},{"start":21687.19,"end":21689.19,"text":"形態增加的時候"},{"start":21689.19,"end":21691.19,"text":"會有來不及應變然後必須要"},{"start":21691.19,"end":21693.19,"text":"再等待修法這樣子的一個空窗"},{"start":21693.19,"end":21695.19,"text":"反而是去"},{"start":21695.19,"end":21697.19,"text":"協助學生救學的初衷"},{"start":21697.19,"end":21699.19,"text":"所以這個部分我是就原有的"},{"start":21699.19,"end":21701.19,"text":"條文來做提一個修正"},{"start":21701.19,"end":21703.19,"text":"以上"},{"start":21704.13,"end":21706.13,"text":"好 國新委員"},{"start":21709.38,"end":21711.38,"text":"好 這邊其實"},{"start":21711.38,"end":21713.38,"text":"我的版本沒有被"},{"start":21713.38,"end":21715.38,"text":"納入不過剛剛"},{"start":21715.38,"end":21717.38,"text":"echo一下這個修法委員他提的"},{"start":21717.38,"end":21719.38,"text":"修正動議那剛剛有特別"},{"start":21719.38,"end":21721.38,"text":"提到這個數位學習其實已經是一個常態"},{"start":21721.38,"end":21723.38,"text":"的那電腦跟網路的"},{"start":21723.38,"end":21725.38,"text":"這樣子的一個基本學習"},{"start":21725.38,"end":21727.38,"text":"的一個配備其實我們也希望能夠"},{"start":21727.38,"end":21729.38,"text":"提案能夠進入所謂的這個"},{"start":21729.38,"end":21731.38,"text":"貸款的這個項目"},{"start":21731.38,"end":21733.38,"text":"另外就是我們把"},{"start":21733.38,"end":21735.38,"text":"這個還款的協助"},{"start":21735.38,"end":21737.38,"text":"還款協助的一個措施"},{"start":21737.38,"end":21739.38,"text":"這個授權讓這個教育部能夠針對"},{"start":21739.38,"end":21741.38,"text":"就是職場初期"},{"start":21741.38,"end":21743.38,"text":"的一些青年提供更具有"},{"start":21743.38,"end":21745.38,"text":"韌性的一個支持的一個機制"},{"start":21745.38,"end":21747.38,"text":"那在這個地方其實"},{"start":21747.38,"end":21749.38,"text":"我比較主張是原則入法"},{"start":21749.38,"end":21751.38,"text":"那就是民進政府"},{"start":21751.38,"end":21753.38,"text":"照顧弱勢的一個責任但是呢"},{"start":21753.38,"end":21755.38,"text":"比整個所有這個條文裡頭"},{"start":21755.38,"end":21757.38,"text":"我看到其他人的版本就是把"},{"start":21757.38,"end":21759.38,"text":"那些具體的數字寫在那個上面"},{"start":21759.38,"end":21761.38,"text":"可能會比較具有彈性"},{"start":21761.38,"end":21763.38,"text":"因為我們可能會隨著物價"},{"start":21763.38,"end":21765.38,"text":"的波動還來做這個"},{"start":21765.38,"end":21767.38,"text":"滾動式的一個調整"},{"start":21767.38,"end":21769.38,"text":"那所以我不傾向把這些"},{"start":21769.38,"end":21771.38,"text":"具體的數字放在這裡面"},{"start":21771.38,"end":21773.38,"text":"好以上"},{"start":21772.72,"end":21775.72,"text":"好我是藥委員"},{"start":21777.83,"end":21779.83,"text":"好謝主席"},{"start":21779.83,"end":21781.83,"text":"這個提案一樣民進黨的六位委員"},{"start":21781.83,"end":21783.83,"text":"的版本都被排除沒有列進來"},{"start":21783.83,"end":21785.83,"text":"我們不得已只好"},{"start":21785.83,"end":21787.83,"text":"用修正動議的方式"},{"start":21787.83,"end":21789.83,"text":"來提出"},{"start":21789.83,"end":21791.83,"text":"那條文的爭點大概"},{"start":21791.83,"end":21793.83,"text":"是四項"},{"start":21793.83,"end":21795.83,"text":"第一項就是就學貸款"},{"start":21795.83,"end":21797.83,"text":"的免利息"},{"start":21797.83,"end":21799.83,"text":"那這個部分如果就這個"},{"start":21799.83,"end":21801.83,"text":"版本加進來的話"},{"start":21801.83,"end":21803.83,"text":"如果通過的話是"},{"start":21803.83,"end":21805.83,"text":"增加政府支出是七億左右"},{"start":21806.89,"end":21808.89,"text":"我先就裁員的部分來講"},{"start":21808.89,"end":21810.89,"text":"第二塊是"},{"start":21810.89,"end":21812.89,"text":"有兩個版本"},{"start":21812.89,"end":21816.89,"text":"一個是對於調整免納學費的標準"},{"start":21816.89,"end":21818.89,"text":"柯志文委員所提的是"},{"start":21818.89,"end":21820.89,"text":"家庭所得進額適用稅率12%"},{"start":21820.89,"end":21822.89,"text":"的這一類的話"},{"start":21822.89,"end":21824.89,"text":"那他大概含擴率會高達"},{"start":21824.89,"end":21826.89,"text":"九成以上的大學學生"},{"start":21826.89,"end":21828.89,"text":"所以這樣的話預算增加"},{"start":21828.89,"end":21830.89,"text":"的是挺高的政府的支出"},{"start":21830.89,"end":21832.89,"text":"一年大概會增加四百億左右"},{"start":21832.89,"end":21834.89,"text":"好我想教育部門等一下可以說明"},{"start":21834.89,"end":21836.89,"text":"一下那如果是"},{"start":21836.89,"end":21838.89,"text":"羅庭薇委員的提案呢"},{"start":21838.89,"end":21840.89,"text":"還包括其他委員"},{"start":21840.89,"end":21842.89,"text":"的提案譬如說"},{"start":21842.89,"end":21844.89,"text":"一人之委員都是把"},{"start":21844.89,"end":21846.89,"text":"家庭所得用五等分的最低"},{"start":21846.89,"end":21848.89,"text":"百分之二十來調整免納"},{"start":21848.89,"end":21850.89,"text":"學費的標準的話"},{"start":21850.89,"end":21852.89,"text":"增加政府裁員的部分"},{"start":21852.89,"end":21854.89,"text":"就小一點但也是"},{"start":21854.89,"end":21856.89,"text":"一個可觀的數字每年"},{"start":21856.89,"end":21858.89,"text":"大概增加一百億左右"},{"start":21858.89,"end":21860.89,"text":"那第四個爭點就在"},{"start":21860.89,"end":21862.89,"text":"對於哪些學生"},{"start":21862.89,"end":21864.89,"text":"學生他可以來辦理"},{"start":21864.89,"end":21866.89,"text":"就學貸款的這個資格"},{"start":21866.89,"end":21868.89,"text":"就是家庭所得總額"},{"start":21868.89,"end":21870.89,"text":"的這個"},{"start":21870.89,"end":21872.89,"text":"標準好是一百五十萬"},{"start":21872.89,"end":21874.89,"text":"以上以下好三級黨委員"},{"start":21874.89,"end":21876.89,"text":"有這樣的標準"},{"start":21876.89,"end":21878.89,"text":"但是因為現在我們能夠"},{"start":21878.89,"end":21880.89,"text":"適用的就學貸款的學生"},{"start":21880.89,"end":21882.89,"text":"的額度"},{"start":21882.61,"end":21884.61,"text":"是一百二十"},{"start":21884.61,"end":21886.61,"text":"二十萬左右嘛對"},{"start":21886.61,"end":21888.61,"text":"一二零還一二八一二零嘛"},{"start":21888.61,"end":21890.61,"text":"一二零一二零那如果說"},{"start":21890.61,"end":21892.61,"text":"真的還有需要的學生"},{"start":21892.61,"end":21894.61,"text":"他其實也可以去走弱勢"},{"start":21894.61,"end":21896.61,"text":"所需要的特殊的那個路徑"},{"start":21896.61,"end":21898.61,"text":"所以政府在現行的政策教育部"},{"start":21898.61,"end":21900.61,"text":"是盡可能都幫助"},{"start":21900.61,"end":21902.61,"text":"只要有需要有貸款需求"},{"start":21902.61,"end":21904.61,"text":"的我們都可以用各種行政"},{"start":21904.61,"end":21906.61,"text":"工具幫助他可以帶得到"},{"start":21906.61,"end":21908.61,"text":"減輕他的負擔"},{"start":21908.61,"end":21910.61,"text":"所以現在呢來討論的幾位"},{"start":21910.61,"end":21912.61,"text":"國民黨級委員所提的提案"},{"start":21912.61,"end":21914.61,"text":"還是會回到"},{"start":21914.61,"end":21916.61,"text":"我們雖然要增加對於學生"},{"start":21916.61,"end":21918.61,"text":"的照顧但是在預算"},{"start":21918.61,"end":21920.61,"text":"的增加的部分"},{"start":21920.61,"end":21922.61,"text":"還有是不是一定要用"},{"start":21922.61,"end":21924.61,"text":"強制入法的方式還是授權"},{"start":21924.61,"end":21926.61,"text":"行政部門在財政"},{"start":21926.61,"end":21928.61,"text":"有餘裕的時候就可以隨時"},{"start":21928.61,"end":21930.61,"text":"機動的來做他"},{"start":21930.61,"end":21932.61,"text":"更快速更可以精準"},{"start":21932.61,"end":21934.61,"text":"的照顧到需要的學生"},{"start":21934.61,"end":21936.61,"text":"他會優於強制的入"},{"start":21936.61,"end":21938.61,"text":"法所以民進黨的委員"},{"start":21938.61,"end":21940.61,"text":"的幾位的提案我們都"},{"start":21940.61,"end":21942.61,"text":"參採一個原則性的入法"},{"start":21944.05,"end":21946.05,"text":"那都是希望給行政部門"},{"start":21946.05,"end":21948.05,"text":"更大的彈性快速"},{"start":21948.05,"end":21950.05,"text":"及時精準的照顧"},{"start":21950.05,"end":21952.05,"text":"需要被擴大"},{"start":21952.05,"end":21954.05,"text":"照顧的學生反而真的"},{"start":21954.05,"end":21956.05,"text":"為了入法而入法"},{"start":21956.05,"end":21958.05,"text":"可能會去延宕了政策"},{"start":21958.05,"end":21960.05,"text":"上路的效益喔"},{"start":21960.05,"end":21962.05,"text":"所以這個部分我們都保留"},{"start":21962.05,"end":21964.05,"text":"對於幾位"},{"start":21964.05,"end":21966.05,"text":"在業黨委員提案的"},{"start":21966.05,"end":21968.05,"text":"內容那如果要真的"},{"start":21968.05,"end":21970.05,"text":"要講是柯志銘委員的版本要走"},{"start":21970.05,"end":21972.05,"text":"還是羅庭偉教委的版本"},{"start":21972.05,"end":21974.05,"text":"要走這恐怕大家也還沒有"},{"start":21974.05,"end":21976.05,"text":"共識啦所以這個"},{"start":21976.05,"end":21978.05,"text":"我是認為這個條文都應當"},{"start":21978.05,"end":21980.05,"text":"審討一下如果真的"},{"start":21980.05,"end":21982.05,"text":"要修請參採行政院"},{"start":21982.05,"end":21984.05,"text":"跟我們幾位委員"},{"start":21984.05,"end":21986.05,"text":"共同討論出來的"},{"start":21986.05,"end":21988.05,"text":"一個原則性的條款"},{"start":21988.05,"end":21990.05,"text":"條文已經在題彙討論的"},{"start":21990.05,"end":21992.05,"text":"版本裡頭來列出來"},{"start":21992.05,"end":21994.05,"text":"政府應依學生家庭"},{"start":21994.05,"end":21996.05,"text":"所得或其突發"},{"start":21996.05,"end":21998.05,"text":"經濟不利情況"},{"start":21998.05,"end":22000.05,"text":"提供經濟不利處境"},{"start":22000.05,"end":22002.05,"text":"學生助學措施"},{"start":22002.05,"end":22004.05,"text":"其助學條件額度權力義務"},{"start":22004.05,"end":22006.05,"text":"及其他因進"},{"start":22006.05,"end":22008.05,"text":"事項之辦法"},{"start":22008.05,"end":22010.05,"text":"由教育部定之"},{"start":22010.05,"end":22012.05,"text":"我想這樣的文字是非常的周延"},{"start":22012.05,"end":22014.05,"text":"而且可行而且真的可以"},{"start":22014.05,"end":22016.05,"text":"有效照顧到學生"},{"start":22016.05,"end":22018.05,"text":"以上報告謝謝主席"},{"start":22018.31,"end":22020.31,"text":"好我們要委員"},{"start":22021.03,"end":22023.03,"text":"好謝謝教委主席"},{"start":22023.03,"end":22025.03,"text":"那一樣原本"},{"start":22025.03,"end":22027.03,"text":"有版本但是現在用修正動議"},{"start":22027.03,"end":22029.03,"text":"那針對這個部分"},{"start":22029.03,"end":22031.03,"text":"意見其實跟"},{"start":22031.03,"end":22033.03,"text":"前面的幾位講的都差不多"},{"start":22033.03,"end":22035.03,"text":"我是增加了第三款"},{"start":22035.03,"end":22037.03,"text":"那就是再給他"},{"start":22037.03,"end":22039.03,"text":"做一個原則性"},{"start":22039.03,"end":22041.03,"text":"的明確的文字"},{"start":22041.03,"end":22043.03,"text":"就是政府可以依學生"},{"start":22043.03,"end":22045.03,"text":"家庭所得或其他經濟"},{"start":22045.03,"end":22047.03,"text":"狀況提供經濟"},{"start":22047.03,"end":22049.03,"text":"不利處境的學生助學"},{"start":22049.03,"end":22051.03,"text":"的措施"},{"start":22051.03,"end":22053.03,"text":"那至於助學的條件額度"},{"start":22053.03,"end":22055.03,"text":"權力義務跟其他因遵行"},{"start":22055.03,"end":22057.03,"text":"的事項"},{"start":22057.03,"end":22059.03,"text":"就是定一個辦法"},{"start":22059.03,"end":22061.03,"text":"另定之那我還是延續"},{"start":22061.03,"end":22063.03,"text":"剛剛說法既然"},{"start":22063.03,"end":22065.03,"text":"學代也好助學也好"},{"start":22065.03,"end":22067.03,"text":"現行就已經有辦法"},{"start":22067.03,"end":22069.03,"text":"那這個部分還是希望"},{"start":22069.03,"end":22071.03,"text":"教育部能夠就我們所關心"},{"start":22071.03,"end":22073.03,"text":"的目前學生所關心的"},{"start":22073.03,"end":22075.03,"text":"等等都能夠把它"},{"start":22075.03,"end":22077.03,"text":"完備由教育部"},{"start":22077.03,"end":22079.03,"text":"那我自己是有增加"},{"start":22079.03,"end":22081.03,"text":"不一樣的條文就是"},{"start":22081.03,"end":22083.03,"text":"如果涉及到原住民的部分"},{"start":22083.03,"end":22085.03,"text":"由教育部會同中央"},{"start":22085.03,"end":22087.03,"text":"原住民組主管機關"},{"start":22087.03,"end":22089.03,"text":"要共同定之"},{"start":22089.03,"end":22091.03,"text":"做這樣的意見表達謝謝"},{"start":22092.72,"end":22094.72,"text":"好蔡宣照委員"},{"start":22096.23,"end":22098.23,"text":"好 主席"},{"start":22099.47,"end":22101.47,"text":"大學生法第35條"},{"start":22101.47,"end":22103.47,"text":"那這個"},{"start":22103.47,"end":22105.47,"text":"台灣民眾黨"},{"start":22105.47,"end":22107.47,"text":"也有檔本"},{"start":22107.47,"end":22109.47,"text":"在這裡再做一個說明"},{"start":22109.47,"end":22111.47,"text":"那大學生就學"},{"start":22111.47,"end":22113.47,"text":"貸款制度的一個"},{"start":22113.47,"end":22115.47,"text":"是要有一個魔法依據"},{"start":22115.47,"end":22117.47,"text":"大學生面臨的一個學會"},{"start":22117.47,"end":22119.47,"text":"住宿生活會還有"},{"start":22119.47,"end":22121.47,"text":"畢業初期就業的一個"},{"start":22121.47,"end":22123.47,"text":"壓力如果"},{"start":22123.47,"end":22125.47,"text":"就學貸款"},{"start":22125.47,"end":22127.47,"text":"保障不足將會影響"},{"start":22127.47,"end":22129.47,"text":"侵略的一個生學"},{"start":22129.47,"end":22131.47,"text":"就業成家還有"},{"start":22131.47,"end":22133.47,"text":"那個職業的一個選擇"},{"start":22133.47,"end":22135.47,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":22135.47,"end":22137.47,"text":"這個就學貸款"},{"start":22137.47,"end":22139.47,"text":"自貸款日"},{"start":22139.47,"end":22141.47,"text":"自償還期"},{"start":22141.47,"end":22143.47,"text":"期算日前之"},{"start":22143.47,"end":22145.47,"text":"例行應該由"},{"start":22145.47,"end":22147.47,"text":"各主管機關"},{"start":22147.47,"end":22149.47,"text":"按年編列預算來"},{"start":22149.47,"end":22151.47,"text":"負擔是把盛行的一個制度"},{"start":22151.47,"end":22153.47,"text":"中最直接影響"},{"start":22153.47,"end":22155.47,"text":"學生負擔的部分提升到"},{"start":22155.47,"end":22157.47,"text":"魔法的一個層次"},{"start":22159.37,"end":22161.37,"text":"教育部呢"},{"start":22161.37,"end":22163.37,"text":"也應該要定期的一個檢討"},{"start":22163.37,"end":22165.37,"text":"就學貸款申請資格"},{"start":22165.37,"end":22167.37,"text":"還有他的家庭所得"},{"start":22167.37,"end":22169.37,"text":"的一個標準"},{"start":22169.37,"end":22171.37,"text":"並且要斟酌物價的一個"},{"start":22171.37,"end":22173.37,"text":"變動積住成本還有"},{"start":22173.37,"end":22175.37,"text":"家庭扶養一個"},{"start":22175.37,"end":22177.37,"text":"負擔的一個調整"},{"start":22177.37,"end":22179.37,"text":"就學貸款的一個制度能夠"},{"start":22179.37,"end":22181.37,"text":"回應到社會經濟"},{"start":22181.37,"end":22183.37,"text":"的一個變化"},{"start":22183.37,"end":22185.37,"text":"所以呢大學的學貸"},{"start":22185.37,"end":22187.37,"text":"不是一般商業的一個貸款"},{"start":22187.37,"end":22189.37,"text":"而是國家來協助"},{"start":22189.37,"end":22191.37,"text":"協助學生完成"},{"start":22191.37,"end":22193.37,"text":"高等教育的一個重要的"},{"start":22193.37,"end":22195.37,"text":"一個制度學生呢"},{"start":22195.37,"end":22197.37,"text":"善未進入殘還期"},{"start":22197.37,"end":22199.37,"text":"以前由主管機關"},{"start":22199.37,"end":22201.37,"text":"來負擔利息"},{"start":22201.37,"end":22203.37,"text":"符合教育評審還有人才"},{"start":22203.37,"end":22205.37,"text":"培育的本質我想讓"},{"start":22205.37,"end":22207.37,"text":"學生能夠安心他就能夠"},{"start":22207.37,"end":22209.37,"text":"前逸以後來求學"},{"start":22209.37,"end":22211.37,"text":"這是我們應該"},{"start":22211.37,"end":22213.37,"text":"要給予學生的一個保障"},{"start":22213.37,"end":22215.37,"text":"以上"},{"start":22226.92,"end":22228.92,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":22228.49,"end":22230.49,"text":"原志委員要不要讓他們先回應你"},{"start":22230.49,"end":22232.49,"text":"再看著他們的回應再"},{"start":22232.49,"end":22234.49,"text":"再繼續說您的說法好不好"},{"start":22234.92,"end":22236.92,"text":"好來我們教育部"},{"start":22237.22,"end":22239.22,"text":"趙委還有各位委員針對剛才"},{"start":22239.22,"end":22241.22,"text":"所提的幾項措施"},{"start":22241.22,"end":22243.22,"text":"裡頭那確實在"},{"start":22243.22,"end":22245.22,"text":"那個有關於"},{"start":22245.22,"end":22247.22,"text":"免學費的這一塊"},{"start":22247.22,"end":22249.22,"text":"的基準的一個設定"},{"start":22249.22,"end":22251.22,"text":"確實會增加我們的"},{"start":22251.22,"end":22253.22,"text":"一個財政上面的一些"},{"start":22253.22,"end":22255.22,"text":"支出那這個部分"},{"start":22255.22,"end":22257.22,"text":"也請委員做審討"},{"start":22257.22,"end":22259.22,"text":"針對其他像蔡"},{"start":22259.22,"end":22261.22,"text":"蔡委員所提到的"},{"start":22261.22,"end":22263.22,"text":"目前我們在學期間"},{"start":22263.22,"end":22265.22,"text":"貸款"},{"start":22265.22,"end":22267.22,"text":"的人數大概是23萬人"},{"start":22267.22,"end":22269.22,"text":"他的利息全部都已經"},{"start":22269.22,"end":22271.22,"text":"由政府"},{"start":22271.22,"end":22273.22,"text":"來負擔那這個也是定在"},{"start":22273.22,"end":22275.22,"text":"我們的就學辦法所以"},{"start":22275.22,"end":22277.22,"text":"只要透過相關的就學"},{"start":22277.22,"end":22279.22,"text":"貸款的辦法"},{"start":22279.22,"end":22281.22,"text":"其實這些行政作為就可以達到"},{"start":22281.22,"end":22283.22,"text":"跟委員提案所達成"},{"start":22283.22,"end":22285.22,"text":"的目的所以剛才像"},{"start":22285.22,"end":22287.22,"text":"私藥委員幾位委員所建議的"},{"start":22287.22,"end":22289.22,"text":"用規範性原則性的"},{"start":22289.22,"end":22291.22,"text":"文字再透過授權"},{"start":22291.22,"end":22293.22,"text":"辦法的方式來執行這個"},{"start":22293.22,"end":22295.22,"text":"可以及時的來回應整個社會"},{"start":22295.22,"end":22297.22,"text":"的一個需求以上補充說明"},{"start":22299.44,"end":22301.44,"text":"好那補充"},{"start":22302.54,"end":22304.54,"text":"吳立華委員也有修正動議"},{"start":22304.54,"end":22306.54,"text":"我們大學法35條"},{"start":22306.54,"end":22308.54,"text":"一併討論"},{"start":22309.36,"end":22311.36,"text":"跟張委員報告一下"},{"start":22311.36,"end":22313.36,"text":"就是說我再補充一塊就是說"},{"start":22313.36,"end":22315.36,"text":"剛剛我們幾位委員提到的"},{"start":22315.36,"end":22317.36,"text":"其實這條修法有兩個重點"},{"start":22317.36,"end":22319.36,"text":"一個就是有關就學貸款一個"},{"start":22319.36,"end":22321.36,"text":"就有關全免學費"},{"start":22321.36,"end":22323.36,"text":"就學貸款來講目前"},{"start":22323.36,"end":22325.36,"text":"委員提的版本有關於"},{"start":22325.36,"end":22327.36,"text":"寬限期的延長以及"},{"start":22327.36,"end":22329.36,"text":"貸款的學生在學"},{"start":22329.36,"end":22331.36,"text":"的期間免利息"},{"start":22331.36,"end":22333.36,"text":"報告蔡村仇委員剛剛提的這個都"},{"start":22333.36,"end":22335.36,"text":"已經目前在五二七"},{"start":22335.36,"end":22337.36,"text":"之後就已經"},{"start":22337.36,"end":22339.36,"text":"那個已經推動了"},{"start":22339.36,"end":22341.36,"text":"都推動了現在唯一的"},{"start":22341.36,"end":22343.36,"text":"還要希望保留給行政機關"},{"start":22343.36,"end":22345.36,"text":"斟酌是剛剛羅志祥"},{"start":22345.36,"end":22347.36,"text":"跟趙偉這邊提到的全面免"},{"start":22347.36,"end":22349.36,"text":"利息的部分雖然我們現在是調降"},{"start":22349.36,"end":22351.36,"text":"一趴那羅委員趙偉這邊"},{"start":22351.36,"end":22353.36,"text":"是希望能夠在"},{"start":22353.36,"end":22355.36,"text":"是不是可以全免我們是比較"},{"start":22355.36,"end":22357.36,"text":"期待說是不是我們可以用"},{"start":22357.36,"end":22359.36,"text":"因為我們現在就學貸款已經有授權"},{"start":22359.36,"end":22361.36,"text":"辦法了讓我們行政部門"},{"start":22361.36,"end":22363.36,"text":"可以依照學生的"},{"start":22363.36,"end":22365.36,"text":"一個需求跟財政狀況我們來"},{"start":22365.36,"end":22367.36,"text":"做滾動的調整我想這第一個說明"},{"start":22367.36,"end":22369.36,"text":"第二個說明就是免"},{"start":22369.36,"end":22371.36,"text":"那學費這一塊包含"},{"start":22371.36,"end":22373.36,"text":"柯志恩委員跟趙偉這邊提的版本"},{"start":22373.36,"end":22375.36,"text":"我們是希望能夠"},{"start":22375.36,"end":22377.36,"text":"用第三項剛剛其實"},{"start":22377.36,"end":22379.36,"text":"有委員也提到說"},{"start":22379.36,"end":22381.36,"text":"是不是一樣也像就學貸款"},{"start":22381.36,"end":22383.36,"text":"一樣用一個授權辦法讓我們"},{"start":22383.36,"end":22385.36,"text":"去參酌像趙偉提出來"},{"start":22385.36,"end":22387.36,"text":"的按照家庭收入"},{"start":22387.36,"end":22389.36,"text":"五等份的後百分之二十"},{"start":22389.36,"end":22391.36,"text":"我們可以參考那個部分"},{"start":22391.36,"end":22393.36,"text":"來定一些有關於學費"},{"start":22393.36,"end":22395.36,"text":"所以減免要全免或是減免多少"},{"start":22395.36,"end":22397.36,"text":"用這個授權"},{"start":22397.36,"end":22399.36,"text":"辦法不能讓教育部一樣"},{"start":22399.36,"end":22401.36,"text":"有一些斟酌的空間"},{"start":22401.36,"end":22403.36,"text":"依照我們的時事變更來做處理"},{"start":22403.36,"end":22405.36,"text":"所以如果可以的話"},{"start":22405.36,"end":22407.36,"text":"我們是期待說委員是不是可以"},{"start":22407.36,"end":22409.36,"text":"支持"},{"start":22409.36,"end":22411.36,"text":"那個行政部門以這樣的方法"},{"start":22411.36,"end":22413.36,"text":"來照顧學生"},{"start":22413.36,"end":22415.36,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":22415.69,"end":22417.69,"text":"好,一人之委員"},{"start":22418.94,"end":22420.94,"text":"好,那個"},{"start":22420.46,"end":22421.46,"text":"剛剛"},{"start":22421.46,"end":22423.46,"text":"市長其實有講"},{"start":22423.46,"end":22425.46,"text":"就是有關於免除學費跟"},{"start":22425.46,"end":22427.46,"text":"學貸利息減免的部分"},{"start":22427.46,"end":22429.46,"text":"其實行政機關都要做"},{"start":22429.46,"end":22431.46,"text":"只是現在差別是"},{"start":22431.46,"end":22433.46,"text":"做多做少的問題"},{"start":22433.46,"end":22435.46,"text":"做多做少牽涉到預算"},{"start":22435.46,"end":22437.46,"text":"我是覺得如果"},{"start":22437.46,"end":22439.46,"text":"行政機關也想要做"},{"start":22439.46,"end":22441.46,"text":"因為現在我們整個政府的"},{"start":22441.46,"end":22443.46,"text":"對於教育的方向是教育平權"},{"start":22443.46,"end":22445.46,"text":"所以才會有補助學費這一些"},{"start":22445.46,"end":22447.46,"text":"既然要做其實"},{"start":22447.46,"end":22449.46,"text":"我們把它入法"},{"start":22449.46,"end":22451.46,"text":"在大學法裡面做明定的規範"},{"start":22451.46,"end":22453.46,"text":"它更能夠彰顯"},{"start":22453.46,"end":22455.46,"text":"我們現在政府想要做教育平權"},{"start":22455.46,"end":22457.46,"text":"這件事情,所以我覺得"},{"start":22458.21,"end":22461.21,"text":"這個次長講的其實跟我們要推的法案沒有衝突"},{"start":22461.21,"end":22463.21,"text":"把它入法,其實我是覺得更"},{"start":22463.21,"end":22466.21,"text":"代表我們對這個事情更加重視"},{"start":22466.21,"end":22468.21,"text":"那第二個"},{"start":22467.63,"end":22469.63,"text":"做多做少就牽涉到預算"},{"start":22469.63,"end":22471.63,"text":"那其實預算如果夠的話"},{"start":22471.63,"end":22473.63,"text":"當然我們是希望給學生"},{"start":22473.63,"end":22475.63,"text":"更好的幫助"},{"start":22475.63,"end":22477.63,"text":"一定就是這樣子"},{"start":22477.63,"end":22479.63,"text":"不要讓學生畢業就背一堆學貸"},{"start":22479.63,"end":22481.63,"text":"然後背債出社會"},{"start":22481.63,"end":22483.63,"text":"其實壓力蠻大的"},{"start":22483.63,"end":22485.63,"text":"那預算的部分其實"},{"start":22485.63,"end":22487.63,"text":"我"},{"start":22487.31,"end":22489.31,"text":"呼應一下剛剛羅志祥委員所講的"},{"start":22489.31,"end":22491.31,"text":"常常就是我們在推東西的時候"},{"start":22491.31,"end":22493.31,"text":"都會說沒有預算"},{"start":22493.31,"end":22495.31,"text":"像前一段時間國民黨團"},{"start":22495.31,"end":22497.31,"text":"也有召開一個記者會"},{"start":22497.31,"end":22499.31,"text":"說我們想要推那個未來帳戶"},{"start":22499.31,"end":22501.31,"text":"去照顧年輕的爸媽"},{"start":22501.31,"end":22503.31,"text":"0到15歲"},{"start":22504.74,"end":22506.74,"text":"一個月5000塊"},{"start":22506.74,"end":22508.74,"text":"0到6月再加強托育"},{"start":22508.74,"end":22510.74,"text":"然後托育一年好像4萬塊等等"},{"start":22510.74,"end":22512.74,"text":"那個時候民進黨就罵我們"},{"start":22512.74,"end":22514.74,"text":"就是說財政機率呢"},{"start":22514.74,"end":22516.74,"text":"錢在哪裡"},{"start":22516.74,"end":22518.74,"text":"難道錢花了就能解決燒紙化的問題嗎"},{"start":22518.74,"end":22520.74,"text":"就一直在批評"},{"start":22520.74,"end":22522.74,"text":"結果每兩天賴清德總統就宣布了"},{"start":22522.74,"end":22524.74,"text":"0到18歲"},{"start":22524.74,"end":22526.74,"text":"一個月5000塊"},{"start":22526.74,"end":22528.74,"text":"花的錢是差不多,而且錢又出現了"},{"start":22528.74,"end":22530.74,"text":"然後就可以解決燒紙化的問題"},{"start":22530.74,"end":22532.74,"text":"所以有時候我們覺得很奇怪"},{"start":22532.74,"end":22534.74,"text":"為什麼同樣的東西"},{"start":22534.74,"end":22536.74,"text":"國民黨自來黨提,就問題一大堆"},{"start":22536.74,"end":22538.74,"text":"執政黨提,一樣的東西就沒問題"},{"start":22538.74,"end":22540.74,"text":"所以我還是希望說我們可以"},{"start":22542.17,"end":22544.17,"text":"仔細的去思考說這個事情該不該做"},{"start":22544.17,"end":22546.17,"text":"如果該做的話"},{"start":22546.17,"end":22548.17,"text":"我相信行政部門就能夠找到"},{"start":22548.17,"end":22550.17,"text":"預算嘛,那這個部分"},{"start":22550.17,"end":22552.17,"text":"也可以請教育部去跟行政院去爭取"},{"start":22552.17,"end":22554.17,"text":"該做我們就做啦"},{"start":22554.17,"end":22556.17,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":22555.65,"end":22557.65,"text":"好,羅思祥委員"},{"start":22557.93,"end":22559.93,"text":"我也是呼應一下葉元之委員"},{"start":22559.93,"end":22561.93,"text":"事實上"},{"start":22561.93,"end":22563.93,"text":"有時候在野黨確實"},{"start":22563.93,"end":22565.93,"text":"在接觸很多民生議題上"},{"start":22565.93,"end":22567.93,"text":"我們會有比執政黨"},{"start":22567.93,"end":22569.93,"text":"可能有更多的一些"},{"start":22569.93,"end":22571.93,"text":"前瞻性"},{"start":22571.93,"end":22573.93,"text":"所以大家可以看到像燒紙化問題的嚴重"},{"start":22573.93,"end":22575.93,"text":"也是在野黨我們不斷去提出來的"},{"start":22575.93,"end":22577.93,"text":"其實今天"},{"start":22577.93,"end":22579.93,"text":"嚴格來講,今天包括"},{"start":22579.93,"end":22581.93,"text":"學貸跟學費的減免"},{"start":22581.93,"end":22583.93,"text":"當你能夠去減輕"},{"start":22583.93,"end":22585.93,"text":"年輕人出社會的負擔"},{"start":22585.93,"end":22587.93,"text":"其實也是呼應了"},{"start":22587.93,"end":22589.93,"text":"賴清德總統後來"},{"start":22589.93,"end":22591.93,"text":"所掖式的"},{"start":22591.93,"end":22593.93,"text":"他要來去挽救"},{"start":22593.93,"end":22595.93,"text":"燒紙化危機的,他是正相關的"},{"start":22595.93,"end":22597.93,"text":"那為什麼剛剛特別講"},{"start":22597.93,"end":22599.93,"text":"我覺得在場的官員也好"},{"start":22599.93,"end":22601.93,"text":"或執政黨委員也好"},{"start":22601.93,"end":22603.93,"text":"其實可以稍微"},{"start":22603.93,"end":22605.93,"text":"稍微記取一下過去發生的經驗"},{"start":22605.93,"end":22607.93,"text":"那每次在野黨提出"},{"start":22607.93,"end":22609.93,"text":"很多前瞻性的想法"},{"start":22609.93,"end":22611.93,"text":"那都是第一時間先用財政預算"},{"start":22611.93,"end":22613.93,"text":"先用不要立法"},{"start":22613.93,"end":22615.93,"text":"先用各種的程序理由"},{"start":22615.93,"end":22617.93,"text":"來開始攻擊、批評或是阻擋"},{"start":22617.93,"end":22619.93,"text":"可是等到最後"},{"start":22619.93,"end":22621.93,"text":"就發現說"},{"start":22621.93,"end":22623.93,"text":"賴總統自己都從善如流"},{"start":22623.93,"end":22625.93,"text":"我們提了很多政見、政策"},{"start":22625.93,"end":22627.93,"text":"他都採用"},{"start":22627.93,"end":22629.93,"text":"或是我們被罵過以後的政見"},{"start":22629.93,"end":22631.93,"text":"等到真的通過,前面我講環歲雲、環家鳴"},{"start":22631.93,"end":22633.93,"text":"都是一樣的事情"},{"start":22633.93,"end":22635.93,"text":"我最後就看到"},{"start":22635.93,"end":22637.93,"text":"執政黨委員歡欣鼓舞"},{"start":22637.93,"end":22639.93,"text":"簡直是在放鞭炮"},{"start":22639.93,"end":22641.93,"text":"一樣在慶祝"},{"start":22641.93,"end":22643.93,"text":"那同樣今天"},{"start":22643.93,"end":22645.93,"text":"從年輕人的角度,我們當然知道財政部分"},{"start":22645.93,"end":22647.93,"text":"會有一些預算要"},{"start":22647.93,"end":22649.93,"text":"必須要增加"},{"start":22649.93,"end":22651.93,"text":"可是大家有沒有想過,今天政府我們的"},{"start":22651.93,"end":22653.93,"text":"財政的膨脹的速度"},{"start":22653.93,"end":22655.93,"text":"現在膨脹的速度已經"},{"start":22655.93,"end":22657.93,"text":"一年的預算是3兆,還不含特別預算"},{"start":22657.93,"end":22659.93,"text":"那過去已經是將近"},{"start":22659.93,"end":22661.93,"text":"快要成長了"},{"start":22661.93,"end":22663.93,"text":"40%、50%都有以上"},{"start":22663.93,"end":22665.93,"text":"那這種情況之下"},{"start":22665.93,"end":22667.93,"text":"難道不能夠為我們的年輕人"},{"start":22667.93,"end":22669.93,"text":"多增加一點"},{"start":22669.93,"end":22671.93,"text":"那這個什麼方式,這是我們今天可以討論"},{"start":22671.93,"end":22673.93,"text":"可是我還是"},{"start":22673.93,"end":22675.93,"text":"贊成剛剛我們葉原子委員"},{"start":22675.93,"end":22677.93,"text":"講的"},{"start":22677.93,"end":22679.93,"text":"今天修進法律,它其實會"},{"start":22679.93,"end":22681.93,"text":"增加我們行政機關來去"},{"start":22681.93,"end":22683.93,"text":"執行的積極性"},{"start":22683.93,"end":22685.93,"text":"那這積極性,這是第一個重點"},{"start":22685.93,"end":22687.93,"text":"那第二個重點是"},{"start":22687.93,"end":22689.93,"text":"它也會讓我們大家知道"},{"start":22689.93,"end":22691.93,"text":"我們政府、立法院"},{"start":22691.93,"end":22693.93,"text":"跟我們的行政院"},{"start":22693.93,"end":22695.93,"text":"重視今天"},{"start":22695.93,"end":22697.93,"text":"年輕人"},{"start":22697.93,"end":22699.93,"text":"社會負擔問題"},{"start":22699.93,"end":22701.93,"text":"所以這個它就有不只是"},{"start":22701.93,"end":22703.93,"text":"在法律、在所謂的"},{"start":22703.93,"end":22705.93,"text":"政策推動上的"},{"start":22705.93,"end":22707.93,"text":"階勢的積極性"},{"start":22707.93,"end":22709.93,"text":"它同時也有所謂的宣示性"},{"start":22709.93,"end":22711.93,"text":"那這是為什麼今天我們要提出"},{"start":22711.93,"end":22713.93,"text":"這個學代三法,希望"},{"start":22713.93,"end":22715.93,"text":"能夠來減輕年輕人負擔的一個初衷"},{"start":22715.93,"end":22717.93,"text":"那我真的是"},{"start":22717.93,"end":22719.93,"text":"真誠的希望,不要又是"},{"start":22719.93,"end":22721.93,"text":"變成以前的狀況"},{"start":22721.93,"end":22723.93,"text":"那很多理由到最後發現"},{"start":22723.93,"end":22725.93,"text":"都不存在,最後一樣是"},{"start":22725.93,"end":22727.93,"text":"來跟進"},{"start":22727.93,"end":22729.93,"text":"那當然晚跟進總比"},{"start":22729.93,"end":22731.93,"text":"從頭到尾不跟進好"},{"start":22731.93,"end":22733.93,"text":"所以就算是晚跟進"},{"start":22733.93,"end":22735.93,"text":"那我們也是一樣保持肯定"},{"start":22735.93,"end":22737.93,"text":"所以這是以上我覺得還是要補充"},{"start":22737.93,"end":22739.93,"text":"一下葉原志委員所說的,以上"},{"start":22742.88,"end":22744.88,"text":"是不是因為大家都發言一輪"},{"start":22744.88,"end":22746.88,"text":"讓我先發言再發言第二輪好嗎"},{"start":22747.4,"end":22749.4,"text":"那我想這個議題"},{"start":22749.4,"end":22751.4,"text":"我們之前也有做詢答"},{"start":22751.4,"end":22753.4,"text":"那我印象也很深刻,當時在討論五等份的時候"},{"start":22753.4,"end":22755.4,"text":"後二十"},{"start":22755.4,"end":22757.4,"text":"趴,這個部分"},{"start":22757.4,"end":22759.4,"text":"當時其實教育部"},{"start":22759.4,"end":22761.4,"text":"並沒有很直接的回應"},{"start":22761.4,"end":22763.4,"text":"這個部分,所以剛剛市長的意思是說"},{"start":22763.4,"end":22765.4,"text":"覺得採用五等份的方式"},{"start":22765.4,"end":22767.4,"text":"最低百分之二十是"},{"start":22767.4,"end":22769.4,"text":"比較,這個框架內的"},{"start":22769.4,"end":22771.4,"text":"同學比較可以接受的嗎"},{"start":22773.35,"end":22775.35,"text":"委員報告就是說"},{"start":22775.35,"end":22777.35,"text":"因為如果我們把"},{"start":22777.35,"end":22779.35,"text":"這樣的標準寫在法裡面"},{"start":22779.35,"end":22781.35,"text":"他們有兩個,對,但是你們大概也會朝這個方向"},{"start":22781.35,"end":22783.35,"text":"我們可以參考"},{"start":22783.35,"end":22785.35,"text":"這樣子的五等份的分配"},{"start":22785.35,"end":22787.35,"text":"請向這個部分,這樣是不是可以放在立法說明"},{"start":22787.35,"end":22789.35,"text":"我們如果用一些授權的原則"},{"start":22789.35,"end":22791.35,"text":"但是我們立法說明"},{"start":22791.35,"end":22793.35,"text":"去寫說我們可以參考"},{"start":22793.35,"end":22795.35,"text":"收支所的或是"},{"start":22795.35,"end":22797.35,"text":"家庭所的五等份"},{"start":22797.35,"end":22799.35,"text":"沒關係,我大概知道"},{"start":22799.35,"end":22801.35,"text":"因為我原本的說法就是說你們在"},{"start":22801.35,"end":22803.35,"text":"幫助大學生的時候"},{"start":22803.35,"end":22805.35,"text":"所分的這個項目"},{"start":22805.35,"end":22807.35,"text":"我認為不夠"},{"start":22807.07,"end":22809.07,"text":"紮實,所以當時我們提出了"},{"start":22809.07,"end":22811.07,"text":"用五等份的部分"},{"start":22811.07,"end":22813.07,"text":"所以今天我是特別"},{"start":22813.07,"end":22815.07,"text":"希望能夠入法,但"},{"start":22815.07,"end":22817.07,"text":"你是正面回應說會參考"},{"start":22817.07,"end":22819.07,"text":"這個方向,但是我是"},{"start":22819.07,"end":22821.07,"text":"擔憂,但沒關係,至少"},{"start":22821.07,"end":22823.07,"text":"有開始有共識,有交集"},{"start":22823.07,"end":22825.07,"text":"就是"},{"start":22825.07,"end":22827.07,"text":"五等份,後二十趴"},{"start":22827.07,"end":22829.07,"text":"那也希望說後續能夠真正"},{"start":22829.07,"end":22831.07,"text":"落實到學童他們"},{"start":22831.07,"end":22833.07,"text":"還童他們,對不起,大學生"},{"start":22833.07,"end":22835.07,"text":"已經不是學童,大學生"},{"start":22835.07,"end":22837.07,"text":"他們的需求跟他們的困境"},{"start":22837.07,"end":22839.07,"text":"所以我們是真的遇到蠻多"},{"start":22839.07,"end":22841.07,"text":"其實我坦白講"},{"start":22841.73,"end":22843.73,"text":"也不是執政黨委員不認真"},{"start":22843.73,"end":22845.73,"text":"是有時候他們也有執政黨的包袱"},{"start":22847.47,"end":22849.47,"text":"所以有一些他沒辦法通過"},{"start":22849.47,"end":22851.47,"text":"沒辦法幫助"},{"start":22851.47,"end":22853.47,"text":"同學的時候他有他的困境"},{"start":22853.47,"end":22855.47,"text":"那所以"},{"start":22855.26,"end":22857.26,"text":"許多的學生團體他就跑來拜託我們"},{"start":22857.26,"end":22859.26,"text":"跑來"},{"start":22859.26,"end":22861.26,"text":"一直陳情,一直陳情"},{"start":22861.26,"end":22863.26,"text":"但是我聽說私底下也有"},{"start":22863.26,"end":22865.26,"text":"學生團體在講,有一些"},{"start":22865.26,"end":22867.26,"text":"執政黨委員也認同"},{"start":22867.6,"end":22869.6,"text":"好,但是我們希望能夠把他的事情促成"},{"start":22869.6,"end":22871.6,"text":"那沒關係"},{"start":22871.6,"end":22873.6,"text":"今天所有的委員各自有各自的意見"},{"start":22873.6,"end":22875.6,"text":"但利益良善,大家都希望"},{"start":22875.6,"end":22877.6,"text":"是為了孩子"},{"start":22877.6,"end":22879.6,"text":"那是不是我就"},{"start":22879.6,"end":22881.6,"text":"因為剛剛有委員在講,我們是不是就"},{"start":22881.6,"end":22883.6,"text":"保留一下"},{"start":22883.6,"end":22885.6,"text":"送院會協商"},{"start":22885.82,"end":22887.82,"text":"好"},{"start":22886.7,"end":22888.7,"text":"吳教委員"},{"start":22888.03,"end":22890.03,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉"},{"start":22890.03,"end":22892.03,"text":"這個部分我想我們大家再釐清一下下"},{"start":22894.68,"end":22896.68,"text":"如果說昭偉可以同意"},{"start":22897.84,"end":22899.84,"text":"把剛剛您所說的五等分的那個部分"},{"start":22901.45,"end":22903.45,"text":"用教育部建議的修正條文"},{"start":22903.45,"end":22905.45,"text":"條文本文是用原則性的"},{"start":22905.45,"end":22907.45,"text":"概括性的"},{"start":22907.45,"end":22909.45,"text":"修法第三項的部分"},{"start":22909.45,"end":22911.45,"text":"但是把昭偉還有"},{"start":22911.45,"end":22913.45,"text":"像葉任志委員所提的"},{"start":22913.45,"end":22915.45,"text":"五等分的罪貌"},{"start":22915.45,"end":22917.45,"text":"20%的擴大照顧的部分"},{"start":22917.45,"end":22921.45,"text":"放在第35條的立法說明"},{"start":22921.45,"end":22923.45,"text":"那也是一個相當"},{"start":22923.45,"end":22925.45,"text":"高效力的來擇程"},{"start":22925.45,"end":22927.45,"text":"行政部門來"},{"start":22927.51,"end":22929.51,"text":"來落實啦,我覺得如果可以的話"},{"start":22929.51,"end":22931.51,"text":"這個部分大家有共識"},{"start":22931.51,"end":22933.51,"text":"那我覺得今天也許"},{"start":22933.51,"end":22935.51,"text":"這一條可以不用"},{"start":22935.51,"end":22937.51,"text":"送學商,可以直接"},{"start":22937.51,"end":22939.51,"text":"達成一個共識"},{"start":22939.51,"end":22941.51,"text":"那我覺得審條文審法案就是這樣"},{"start":22941.51,"end":22943.51,"text":"我們一直在說"},{"start":22943.51,"end":22945.51,"text":"立法委員可以提"},{"start":22945.51,"end":22947.51,"text":"我們有質詢權"},{"start":22947.51,"end":22949.51,"text":"我們可以審預算"},{"start":22949.58,"end":22951.58,"text":"我們可以透過各種提案的權利"},{"start":22951.58,"end":22953.58,"text":"去跟行政部門"},{"start":22953.58,"end":22955.58,"text":"對話"},{"start":22955.58,"end":22957.58,"text":"讓行政部門把好的"},{"start":22957.58,"end":22959.58,"text":"政策擴大照顧的"},{"start":22959.58,"end":22961.58,"text":"福祉能夠落實"},{"start":22961.58,"end":22963.58,"text":"但是即便是"},{"start":22963.58,"end":22965.58,"text":"提出修法的文字"},{"start":22965.58,"end":22967.58,"text":"也是應當跟行政部門"},{"start":22967.58,"end":22969.58,"text":"共同研商"},{"start":22969.58,"end":22971.58,"text":"在裁員可行的方式之下"},{"start":22971.58,"end":22973.58,"text":"那大家一起來"},{"start":22973.58,"end":22975.58,"text":"推進"},{"start":22975.58,"end":22977.58,"text":"那顯然如果說在行政部門"},{"start":22977.58,"end":22979.58,"text":"我們認為現有的裁員"},{"start":22979.58,"end":22981.58,"text":"真的是還需要商著的話"},{"start":22981.58,"end":22983.58,"text":"那強制入法"},{"start":22983.58,"end":22985.58,"text":"我想這個就真的是"},{"start":22985.58,"end":22987.58,"text":"大家還需要一點時間來匯聚共識"},{"start":22987.58,"end":22989.58,"text":"那至少在大學法35條"},{"start":22989.58,"end":22991.58,"text":"的這一部分"},{"start":22991.58,"end":22993.58,"text":"剛剛你聽到羅家維所提到"},{"start":22993.58,"end":22995.58,"text":"對於參考主計總處"},{"start":22995.58,"end":22997.58,"text":"公告家庭收支調查報告之"},{"start":22997.58,"end":22999.58,"text":"家庭所得五等分"},{"start":23000.03,"end":23002.03,"text":"的五等分為的最末"},{"start":23002.03,"end":23004.03,"text":"20%的部分能夠"},{"start":23004.03,"end":23006.03,"text":"來用立法說明"},{"start":23006.03,"end":23008.03,"text":"責成行政部門"},{"start":23008.03,"end":23010.03,"text":"未來來進行處理跟"},{"start":23010.03,"end":23012.03,"text":"調配然後"},{"start":23012.03,"end":23014.03,"text":"甚至可以因應"},{"start":23014.03,"end":23016.03,"text":"其他突發的經濟不利的狀況"},{"start":23016.03,"end":23018.03,"text":"擴大保障學生的權利"},{"start":23018.03,"end":23020.03,"text":"我是想在主席才是"},{"start":23020.03,"end":23022.03,"text":"要交付協商"},{"start":23022.03,"end":23024.03,"text":"保留之前再爭取"},{"start":23024.03,"end":23026.03,"text":"一下如果能夠的話"},{"start":23026.03,"end":23028.03,"text":"修正條文能不能夠參照"},{"start":23028.03,"end":23030.03,"text":"教育部所提的這個方式"},{"start":23030.03,"end":23032.03,"text":"我再爭取一下"},{"start":23032.03,"end":23034.03,"text":"那這樣今天大家應當有一些比較正面的進展"},{"start":23038.04,"end":23040.04,"text":"好還有委員有意見嗎"},{"start":23041.87,"end":23043.87,"text":"好"},{"start":23042.76,"end":23044.76,"text":"那我想"},{"start":23044.76,"end":23046.76,"text":"知識體大"},{"start":23046.76,"end":23048.76,"text":"這件事情趁有共識我還是希望"},{"start":23048.76,"end":23050.76,"text":"能夠趁共識"},{"start":23050.76,"end":23052.76,"text":"繼續追擊"},{"start":23052.76,"end":23054.76,"text":"為學生的福利"},{"start":23054.76,"end":23056.76,"text":"然後能夠最大化"},{"start":23056.76,"end":23058.76,"text":"所以有一些更細節的文字"},{"start":23060.23,"end":23062.23,"text":"我覺得今天還需要更多的討論"},{"start":23062.23,"end":23064.23,"text":"我們再想想"},{"start":23064.23,"end":23066.23,"text":"所以就保留吧"},{"start":23066.86,"end":23068.86,"text":"送院會協商謝謝"},{"start":23069.63,"end":23071.63,"text":"這是蠻可惜的主席不再思考一下嗎"},{"start":23071.63,"end":23073.63,"text":"我們都講成這樣"},{"start":23073.63,"end":23075.63,"text":"我們都有共識了"},{"start":23075.63,"end":23077.63,"text":"而且是參採您的意見的共識"},{"start":23077.63,"end":23079.63,"text":"啊你又不要"},{"start":23079.63,"end":23081.63,"text":"啊從頭我們的意見你都覺得不要"},{"start":23081.63,"end":23083.63,"text":"我再商量一下"},{"start":23083.63,"end":23085.63,"text":"不會不會說他不要"},{"start":23085.63,"end":23087.63,"text":"所以我也要參考你們的意見"},{"start":23087.63,"end":23089.63,"text":"我不能夠自己決定一定要過"},{"start":23089.63,"end":23091.63,"text":"所以就是院會保留"},{"start":23091.63,"end":23093.63,"text":"那因為我是覺得要寫在左邊"},{"start":23093.63,"end":23095.63,"text":"您是覺得要寫在右邊那就不一樣"},{"start":23095.63,"end":23097.63,"text":"左邊是寫在法律"},{"start":23097.63,"end":23099.63,"text":"行政部門剛剛也說明"},{"start":23099.63,"end":23103.63,"text":"剛剛是您的發言說說明也可以參採不是嗎"},{"start":23103.63,"end":23105.63,"text":"不是我是先詢問他"},{"start":23105.63,"end":23107.63,"text":"他是不是可以參採"},{"start":23107.63,"end":23109.63,"text":"那趁有共識我更覺得可以立法"},{"start":23110.43,"end":23112.43,"text":"對不對"},{"start":23111.48,"end":23115.48,"text":"你也公司法剛剛的說法不敢辦"},{"start":23115.48,"end":23117.48,"text":"你剛剛說的不一樣"},{"start":23117.48,"end":23119.48,"text":"你剛剛說的不一樣"},{"start":23119.44,"end":23121.44,"text":"對對對"},{"start":23121.44,"end":23123.44,"text":"你跟剛剛說的不太一樣"},{"start":23123.44,"end":23125.44,"text":"我是覺得"},{"start":23125.44,"end":23127.44,"text":"對對對"},{"start":23127.46,"end":23129.46,"text":"好吧那保留大概就"},{"start":23130.22,"end":23132.22,"text":"好休息三分鐘教育部再好好跟剛剛那個"},{"start":23132.22,"end":23134.22,"text":"趙偉他本來說的共識"},{"start":23134.22,"end":23136.22,"text":"可以再溝通一下好嗎"},{"start":23270.59,"end":23272.59,"text":"好的"},{"start":23285.21,"end":23287.21,"text":"一個立法說明一個附帶"},{"start":23289.75,"end":23291.75,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會"},{"start":23291.75,"end":23293.75,"text":"還在休息時間"},{"start":23294.67,"end":23296.67,"text":"直接開會好嗎"},{"start":23296.67,"end":23298.67,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":23301.37,"end":23303.37,"text":"一起來"},{"start":23305.71,"end":23307.71,"text":"所以你們現在是又在提出修正動議嗎"},{"start":23307.71,"end":23309.71,"text":"一個是專科學校法一個是大學法"},{"start":23309.71,"end":23311.71,"text":"這個是附帶決議"},{"start":23311.71,"end":23313.71,"text":"是建議說是不是用附帶決議的方式"},{"start":23313.71,"end":23315.71,"text":"再加上立法說明"},{"start":23315.71,"end":23317.71,"text":"那這樣子"},{"start":23317.71,"end":23319.71,"text":"先處理35條大學法"},{"start":23319.71,"end":23321.71,"text":"那因為剛剛郭一群委員"},{"start":23321.71,"end":23323.71,"text":"又有提出了修正附帶決議"},{"start":23326.08,"end":23328.08,"text":"好"},{"start":23327.16,"end":23329.16,"text":"就是新增的附帶決議"},{"start":23329.16,"end":23331.16,"text":"新增的新增的"},{"start":23331.16,"end":23333.16,"text":"新增的附帶決議"},{"start":23333.16,"end":23335.16,"text":"跟趙偉報告一下就是說"},{"start":23335.16,"end":23337.16,"text":"我們現在35條"},{"start":23337.16,"end":23339.16,"text":"除了剛剛有建議說"},{"start":23339.16,"end":23341.16,"text":"我們在立法說明加上說會參考"},{"start":23341.16,"end":23343.16,"text":"家庭物等費用"},{"start":23343.16,"end":23345.16,"text":"跟那個累積稅率以外"},{"start":23345.16,"end":23347.16,"text":"我們是不是另外再有個附帶決議"},{"start":23347.16,"end":23349.16,"text":"來課則我們"},{"start":23349.16,"end":23351.16,"text":"科與行政機關"},{"start":23351.16,"end":23353.16,"text":"應該要依照這個部分"},{"start":23353.16,"end":23355.16,"text":"再來做審酌那我們在"},{"start":23355.16,"end":23357.16,"text":"未來的一些學費減免"},{"start":23357.16,"end":23359.16,"text":"就會更有依據朝委我們建議的方向"},{"start":23359.16,"end":23361.16,"text":"當然我們現在"},{"start":23361.16,"end":23363.16,"text":"第35條調文修正草案的附帶決議"},{"start":23363.16,"end":23365.16,"text":"還是要調文"},{"start":23365.16,"end":23367.16,"text":"有確定逐條通過"},{"start":23367.16,"end":23369.16,"text":"才有附帶決議"},{"start":23369.16,"end":23371.16,"text":"那也看到我們現場"},{"start":23371.16,"end":23373.16,"text":"所提的附帶決議"},{"start":23373.16,"end":23375.16,"text":"那因為剛剛"},{"start":23375.16,"end":23377.16,"text":"休息的時候有稍微在討論一下"},{"start":23377.16,"end":23379.16,"text":"那也要跟大家特別報告"},{"start":23379.16,"end":23381.16,"text":"因為我想這個部分還是要在"},{"start":23381.16,"end":23383.16,"text":"跟更多的委員達成共識"},{"start":23383.16,"end":23385.16,"text":"好我想這個知識體大"},{"start":23385.93,"end":23387.93,"text":"不是我們現在可以馬上決定的"},{"start":23387.93,"end":23389.93,"text":"那我想我們還是政黨協商"},{"start":23389.93,"end":23391.93,"text":"再處理謝謝"},{"start":23391.93,"end":23393.93,"text":"那是不是就保留送約會處理"},{"start":23393.93,"end":23395.93,"text":"等一下主席再商量一下"},{"start":23397.66,"end":23399.66,"text":"我們在場的委員有幾位"},{"start":23400.68,"end":23402.68,"text":"我們都努力認真在這裡審查"},{"start":23402.68,"end":23404.68,"text":"然後我們講完"},{"start":23404.68,"end":23406.68,"text":"然後你都說還要跟更多的委員"},{"start":23406.68,"end":23408.68,"text":"那我們在場的委員的意見你都不參差一下"},{"start":23408.68,"end":23410.68,"text":"而且剛剛教育部門"},{"start":23410.68,"end":23412.68,"text":"不管是修法"},{"start":23412.68,"end":23414.68,"text":"然後入這個"},{"start":23414.68,"end":23416.68,"text":"說證說明的文字"},{"start":23416.68,"end":23418.68,"text":"或者是1加1再補強一個"},{"start":23419.4,"end":23423.4,"text":"附帶決議都是參採了主席您的建議"},{"start":23424.15,"end":23426.15,"text":"所以我們其實都支持"},{"start":23428,"end":23430,"text":"我們都支持"},{"start":23430,"end":23432,"text":"我們都支持您這邊的"},{"start":23432,"end":23434,"text":"的原則性的東西"},{"start":23434,"end":23436,"text":"大家難得有這個共識"},{"start":23436,"end":23438,"text":"所以我一再都強調說執政黨委員不是不做事"},{"start":23438,"end":23440,"text":"他們都是很不合理"},{"start":23440,"end":23442,"text":"對不起這句話講真的不對"},{"start":23442,"end":23444,"text":"什麼叫執政黨不做事"},{"start":23444,"end":23446,"text":"對不起我受回"},{"start":23446,"end":23448,"text":"我們都很認真在共同討論"},{"start":23448,"end":23450,"text":"那也有幫忙協助處理"},{"start":23450,"end":23452,"text":"是啊所以如果能夠有這個好的共識的話"},{"start":23452,"end":23454,"text":"我想跟您解釋不是我們不附議"},{"start":23454,"end":23456,"text":"那我們現在可以決定嗎"},{"start":23456,"end":23458,"text":"我們才跟著不附議才沒有進來"},{"start":23458,"end":23460,"text":"就請你不要誤會"},{"start":23460,"end":23462,"text":"那個法案沒關係啊我們已經坐在這裡"},{"start":23462,"end":23464,"text":"就是用"},{"start":23464,"end":23466,"text":"但是你們的修正動議很豐富"},{"start":23466,"end":23468,"text":"就是在幫忙發聲嘛"},{"start":23468,"end":23470,"text":"所以那一段我們已經都用修正動議"},{"start":23470,"end":23472,"text":"我們已經"},{"start":23472.5,"end":23474.5,"text":"好"},{"start":23474.48,"end":23476.48,"text":"反正就已經在進入條文了"},{"start":23476.48,"end":23478.48,"text":"前情不用再提要了"},{"start":23478.48,"end":23480.48,"text":"OKOKOK"},{"start":23480.48,"end":23482.48,"text":"參賽您的建議可不可以就這樣過"},{"start":23483.23,"end":23485.23,"text":"真的真的真的"},{"start":23485.23,"end":23487.23,"text":"其實就是"},{"start":23486.95,"end":23488.95,"text":"我們尊重您的提案"},{"start":23488.95,"end":23490.95,"text":"我只能講說真的不是我一個人能決定的"},{"start":23490.95,"end":23492.95,"text":"所以這個部分還請委員"},{"start":23492.95,"end":23494.95,"text":"我們在場的委員"},{"start":23494.95,"end":23496.95,"text":"那因為小朋友"},{"start":23496.95,"end":23498.95,"text":"對不起大學生的這一個"},{"start":23500.55,"end":23502.55,"text":"知識體大"},{"start":23502.55,"end":23504.55,"text":"然後我想很多的團體一直在特別"},{"start":23504.55,"end":23506.55,"text":"給予很多委員的期待"},{"start":23506.55,"end":23508.55,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":23508.55,"end":23510.55,"text":"那這樣委員會的討論是不是大家就是坐在這裡"},{"start":23510.55,"end":23512.55,"text":"那沒關係"},{"start":23512.55,"end":23514.55,"text":"我們先請羅志祥委員他有舉手"},{"start":23514.55,"end":23516.55,"text":"首先第一個"},{"start":23516.55,"end":23518.55,"text":"當然我覺得大家"},{"start":23518.55,"end":23520.55,"text":"有共識"},{"start":23520.55,"end":23522.55,"text":"尤其在這個學代也好學費減免也好"},{"start":23522.55,"end":23524.55,"text":"給我們學生"},{"start":23524.55,"end":23526.55,"text":"多一點幫助跟鼓勵"},{"start":23526.55,"end":23528.55,"text":"那我看現在大概就是意思是說"},{"start":23528.55,"end":23530.55,"text":"是用立法還是用立法說明"},{"start":23530.55,"end":23532.55,"text":"來處理這件事情"},{"start":23532.55,"end":23534.55,"text":"但是我要特別講一下就是說"},{"start":23534.55,"end":23536.55,"text":"事實上我覺得以所謂的那個"},{"start":23536.55,"end":23538.55,"text":"立法例來講的話"},{"start":23538.55,"end":23540.55,"text":"立法說明其實並不適宜"},{"start":23540.55,"end":23542.55,"text":"去把一些"},{"start":23542.55,"end":23544.55,"text":"政策明確化來在立法說明"},{"start":23544.55,"end":23546.55,"text":"立法說明當然就想為什麼要立法"},{"start":23546.55,"end":23548.55,"text":"他去講問題的意識"},{"start":23548.55,"end":23550.55,"text":"然後包括"},{"start":23550.55,"end":23552.55,"text":"達成的目的政策的目標"},{"start":23552.55,"end":23554.55,"text":"現行制度有什麼要改變的"},{"start":23554.55,"end":23556.55,"text":"還有歷史"},{"start":23556.55,"end":23558.55,"text":"的一個原由"},{"start":23558.55,"end":23560.55,"text":"所以他其實通常是比較抽象性"},{"start":23560.55,"end":23562.55,"text":"因此如果說真的"},{"start":23562.55,"end":23564.55,"text":"今天從政策的角度"},{"start":23564.55,"end":23566.55,"text":"我們要以法律作為政策後盾的角度"},{"start":23566.55,"end":23568.55,"text":"來講的話他應該還是要修進"},{"start":23568.55,"end":23570.55,"text":"法條裡面我覺得這才是正辦"},{"start":23570.55,"end":23572.55,"text":"所以這倒是跟政策"},{"start":23572.55,"end":23574.55,"text":"覺得召委有沒有共識"},{"start":23574.55,"end":23576.55,"text":"我覺得有共識是好事但是"},{"start":23576.55,"end":23578.55,"text":"以立法手段來講我個人還是認為說"},{"start":23578.55,"end":23580.55,"text":"用法律條文"},{"start":23580.55,"end":23582.55,"text":"來規範是比較合宜的"},{"start":23582.55,"end":23584.55,"text":"當然也尊重我們現在"},{"start":23584.55,"end":23586.55,"text":"其他委員的意見"},{"start":23586.55,"end":23588.55,"text":"所以光這個放在哪個部分"},{"start":23588.55,"end":23590.55,"text":"既然也有大家不太相同的意見的話"},{"start":23590.55,"end":23592.55,"text":"那我覺得主席"},{"start":23592.55,"end":23594.55,"text":"用保留的方式"},{"start":23594.55,"end":23596.55,"text":"我覺得也是一個處理的方式以上"},{"start":23596.55,"end":23598.55,"text":"我另外跟現場的委員"},{"start":23598.55,"end":23600.55,"text":"另外報告"},{"start":23600.55,"end":23602.55,"text":"我們現在不是"},{"start":23602.55,"end":23604.55,"text":"只有要不要入法跟要不要入在說明"},{"start":23606.24,"end":23608.24,"text":"我們現在是剛剛才處理到"},{"start":23608.24,"end":23610.24,"text":"要不要五等分"},{"start":23610.24,"end":23612.24,"text":"後二十八還有一些"},{"start":23612.24,"end":23614.24,"text":"文字細節包括我寫的"},{"start":23614.24,"end":23616.24,"text":"免納資學費"},{"start":23616.24,"end":23618.24,"text":"教育部編列預算免於"},{"start":23618.24,"end":23620.24,"text":"免於繳納註冊時"},{"start":23620.24,"end":23622.24,"text":"要撥經費"},{"start":23622.24,"end":23624.24,"text":"其實這些細部的文字"},{"start":23624.24,"end":23626.24,"text":"也是在我入法的時候我比較"},{"start":23626.24,"end":23628.24,"text":"很希望精準"},{"start":23628.24,"end":23630.24,"text":"來處理的"},{"start":23630.24,"end":23632.24,"text":"所以剛剛教育部只是承諾了"},{"start":23632.24,"end":23634.24,"text":"比如說"},{"start":23634.24,"end":23636.24,"text":"我的需求的三分之一"},{"start":23636.24,"end":23638.24,"text":"所以這也是我不敢立即"},{"start":23638.24,"end":23640.24,"text":"馬上答應"},{"start":23640.24,"end":23642.24,"text":"因為剛剛只有五等分放到"},{"start":23642.97,"end":23644.97,"text":"立法說明"},{"start":23644.97,"end":23646.97,"text":"所以我覺得這個時間點"},{"start":23646.97,"end":23648.97,"text":"我不敢答應要保留"},{"start":23648.97,"end":23650.97,"text":"謝謝吳市長委員"},{"start":23650.45,"end":23652.45,"text":"謝謝主席我再補充說明一下"},{"start":23652.45,"end":23654.45,"text":"大學法三十五條"},{"start":23654.45,"end":23656.45,"text":"有三項"},{"start":23656.45,"end":23658.45,"text":"第一項大家都同意不動"},{"start":23658.45,"end":23660.45,"text":"第二項就是要增加"},{"start":23660.45,"end":23662.45,"text":"政府為協助學生就讀大學"},{"start":23662.45,"end":23664.45,"text":"應辦理哪些事情"},{"start":23664.45,"end":23666.45,"text":"會增加一個電腦及"},{"start":23666.45,"end":23668.45,"text":"網路通訊使用費"},{"start":23669.92,"end":23671.92,"text":"這個要增加"},{"start":23671.92,"end":23673.92,"text":"然後呢上面這些費用的"},{"start":23675.09,"end":23677.09,"text":"貸款條件額度權利義務"},{"start":23677.09,"end":23679.09,"text":"跟還款協助措施"},{"start":23679.09,"end":23681.09,"text":"及其他應遵行"},{"start":23681.09,"end":23683.09,"text":"事項之辦法由教育部定制"},{"start":23683.09,"end":23685.09,"text":"這是第二項的修正文字非常明確"},{"start":23685.09,"end":23687.09,"text":"第三項"},{"start":23687.09,"end":23689.09,"text":"要增修的文字我還是"},{"start":23689.09,"end":23691.09,"text":"因為都已經在題彙討論的"},{"start":23691.09,"end":23693.09,"text":"版本很清楚但我還是"},{"start":23693.09,"end":23695.09,"text":"要再花一點時間來說明"},{"start":23695.09,"end":23697.09,"text":"有助於大家理解"},{"start":23697.09,"end":23699.09,"text":"第三項的文字是"},{"start":23699.09,"end":23701.09,"text":"政府應依學生家庭"},{"start":23701.09,"end":23703.09,"text":"所得或其他突發"},{"start":23703.09,"end":23705.09,"text":"經濟不利情況提供"},{"start":23705.09,"end":23707.09,"text":"經濟不利處境學生助學"},{"start":23707.09,"end":23709.09,"text":"措施其助學條件"},{"start":23709.09,"end":23711.09,"text":"額度權利義務及其他應遵行"},{"start":23711.09,"end":23713.09,"text":"事項之辦法由教育部定制"},{"start":23713.09,"end":23715.09,"text":"這個是謀法增訂第三項"},{"start":23715.09,"end":23717.09,"text":"的條文所以才會"},{"start":23717.09,"end":23719.09,"text":"因為增訂的這第三項"},{"start":23719.09,"end":23721.09,"text":"我們到底"},{"start":23721.09,"end":23723.09,"text":"這些應遵行事項的"},{"start":23723.09,"end":23725.09,"text":"內涵是什麼我們把它放在"},{"start":23725.09,"end":23727.09,"text":"立法說明它是一個延伸"},{"start":23727.09,"end":23729.09,"text":"而且它一樣就是入法"},{"start":23729.09,"end":23731.09,"text":"的法律效力好我們來看看"},{"start":23731.09,"end":23733.09,"text":"在立法說明裡頭為了增訂"},{"start":23733.09,"end":23735.09,"text":"第三項我們增加"},{"start":23735.09,"end":23737.09,"text":"的文字是"},{"start":23737.09,"end":23739.09,"text":"立法說明的第二點"},{"start":23739.09,"end":23741.09,"text":"為了落實教育平權"},{"start":23741.09,"end":23743.09,"text":"避免學生因家庭所得或"},{"start":23743.09,"end":23745.09,"text":"其他經濟不利情形而影響"},{"start":23745.09,"end":23747.09,"text":"其受教權原增訂"},{"start":23747.09,"end":23749.09,"text":"第三項就剛剛講的第三項"},{"start":23749.09,"end":23751.09,"text":"對不對那明定政府要做的"},{"start":23751.09,"end":23753.09,"text":"事情是什麼請"},{"start":23753.09,"end":23755.09,"text":"看下半段"},{"start":23756.59,"end":23758.59,"text":"另立辦法"},{"start":23758.55,"end":23760.55,"text":"具以執行"},{"start":23760.32,"end":23762.32,"text":"以及時因應"},{"start":23762.32,"end":23764.32,"text":"國內家庭所得"},{"start":23764.32,"end":23766.32,"text":"的狀況"},{"start":23766.32,"end":23768.32,"text":"例如參潮足跡總處公告"},{"start":23768.32,"end":23770.32,"text":"家庭收支調查報告之家庭所得"},{"start":23770.32,"end":23772.32,"text":"五等分位這就是主席您的提案"},{"start":23773.55,"end":23777.55,"text":"然後這些東西都很清楚的依附於增訂第三項"},{"start":23777.55,"end":23779.55,"text":"然後擴充說明"},{"start":23779.55,"end":23781.55,"text":"在立法說明的"},{"start":23781.55,"end":23783.55,"text":"文字裡頭它其實是入"},{"start":23783.55,"end":23785.55,"text":"母法而且有說明"},{"start":23785.55,"end":23787.55,"text":"很清楚這第一件事情"},{"start":23788.25,"end":23790.25,"text":"所以也達到了主席希望"},{"start":23790.25,"end":23792.25,"text":"責成"},{"start":23792.28,"end":23794.28,"text":"教育部門往這個方向去推進"},{"start":23794.28,"end":23796.28,"text":"的政策方向達到了"},{"start":23796.28,"end":23798.28,"text":"第二個如果委員"},{"start":23798.28,"end":23800.28,"text":"們覺得這個還不夠我們"},{"start":23800.28,"end":23802.28,"text":"剛剛也簽署了一個"},{"start":23802.75,"end":23804.75,"text":"通過這個修正條文的"},{"start":23804.75,"end":23806.75,"text":"附帶決議"},{"start":23806.75,"end":23808.75,"text":"1加1"},{"start":23808.75,"end":23810.75,"text":"1 plus 1會更有利"},{"start":23810.75,"end":23812.75,"text":"更有效力的去責成"},{"start":23812.75,"end":23814.75,"text":"行政部門做"},{"start":23814.75,"end":23816.75,"text":"所以我覺得有入母法"},{"start":23818.19,"end":23820.19,"text":"然後有補強了"},{"start":23820.19,"end":23822.19,"text":"修正動議這都彰顯"},{"start":23822.19,"end":23824.19,"text":"立法院教育文化委員會"},{"start":23824.19,"end":23826.19,"text":"跨黨派委員對於照顧"},{"start":23826.19,"end":23828.19,"text":"學生的這個努力"},{"start":23828.19,"end":23830.19,"text":"真的是"},{"start":23830.56,"end":23832.56,"text":"還是要補充說明啦"},{"start":23832.56,"end":23834.56,"text":"我們不厭其煩溝通嘛"},{"start":23835.7,"end":23837.7,"text":"那看主席是這樣的說明"},{"start":23837.7,"end":23839.7,"text":"夠不夠清楚"},{"start":23839.23,"end":23841.23,"text":"還是您覺得還是沒有辦法決定"},{"start":23841.23,"end":23843.23,"text":"我覺得是非常清楚啦"},{"start":23847.01,"end":23849.01,"text":"召委跟各位委員報告"},{"start":23849.01,"end":23851.01,"text":"就是說其實我各位"},{"start":23851.01,"end":23853.01,"text":"的版本的提案都非常的"},{"start":23853.01,"end":23855.01,"text":"仔細包含說連"},{"start":23855.01,"end":23857.01,"text":"免納學費之後要由教育部"},{"start":23857.01,"end":23859.01,"text":"來編列預算補助學生"},{"start":23859.01,"end":23861.01,"text":"而且應該在註冊"},{"start":23861.01,"end":23863.01,"text":"時就先減免等於說不要讓學生"},{"start":23863.01,"end":23865.01,"text":"還要先繳之後我們再"},{"start":23865.01,"end":23867.01,"text":"補給他那這個部分"},{"start":23867.01,"end":23869.01,"text":"都都是學生團體"},{"start":23869.01,"end":23871.01,"text":"來跟我們溝通那我也跟委員報告"},{"start":23871.01,"end":23873.01,"text":"目前我們政府各類的"},{"start":23873.01,"end":23875.01,"text":"學雜費減免從低收入"},{"start":23875.01,"end":23877.01,"text":"到申請障礙學生"},{"start":23877.01,"end":23879.01,"text":"甚至到原住民我們都是採取"},{"start":23879.01,"end":23881.01,"text":"就先預扣起來"},{"start":23881.01,"end":23883.01,"text":"不會讓學生負擔所以委員"},{"start":23883.01,"end":23885.01,"text":"可以放心就是說如果我們將來"},{"start":23885.01,"end":23887.01,"text":"再執行這一條我們一樣在"},{"start":23887.01,"end":23889.01,"text":"委員關心的不要讓"},{"start":23889.01,"end":23891.01,"text":"學生先繳先繳我們"},{"start":23891.01,"end":23893.01,"text":"再補給他這個部分我們現在"},{"start":23893.01,"end":23895.01,"text":"都已經在繳費的當下就"},{"start":23895.01,"end":23897.01,"text":"先幫學生都預扣掉了"},{"start":23897.01,"end":23899.01,"text":"所以這個部分我們是有"},{"start":23899.01,"end":23901.01,"text":"現行規定可以參考啦"},{"start":23901.01,"end":23903.01,"text":"所以希望說委員可以"},{"start":23903.01,"end":23905.01,"text":"放心說再不再執行這一塊"},{"start":23905.01,"end":23907.01,"text":"因為在其他的學雜費減免"},{"start":23907.01,"end":23909.01,"text":"都有類似的操作"},{"start":23909.01,"end":23911.01,"text":"不會增加學生的負擔也跟委員補充"},{"start":23920.41,"end":23922.41,"text":"好我想AQ一下就是"},{"start":23922.41,"end":23924.41,"text":"剛剛思雅委員有特別說到"},{"start":23924.41,"end":23926.41,"text":"我想這個第35條"},{"start":23926.41,"end":23928.41,"text":"既然其實我們已經把這樣子"},{"start":23928.41,"end":23930.41,"text":"的一個整個"},{"start":23930.41,"end":23932.41,"text":"算是概化性的非常"},{"start":23932.41,"end":23934.41,"text":"重要的一個方向寫在"},{"start":23934.41,"end":23936.41,"text":"35條上那這個"},{"start":23936.41,"end":23938.41,"text":"所謂的這個立法說明其實他"},{"start":23938.41,"end":23940.41,"text":"也是在這樣子的一個"},{"start":23940.41,"end":23942.41,"text":"架構當中去補強"},{"start":23942.41,"end":23944.41,"text":"就是剛剛這個趙偉"},{"start":23944.41,"end":23946.41,"text":"您的這個修法的"},{"start":23946.41,"end":23948.41,"text":"內容跟這樣子的一個條件"},{"start":23948.41,"end":23950.41,"text":"那大家其實都往這個部分"},{"start":23950.41,"end":23952.41,"text":"再往前進了那後面我們"},{"start":23952.41,"end":23954.41,"text":"再就是另外再"},{"start":23954.41,"end":23956.41,"text":"提了一個就是我們的這個"},{"start":23956.41,"end":23958.41,"text":"附帶決議我想這個是"},{"start":23958.41,"end":23960.41,"text":"一加一啦那我相信這個"},{"start":23960.41,"end":23962.41,"text":"絕對是有非常"},{"start":23962.41,"end":23964.41,"text":"重要的一個指標性的一個"},{"start":23964.41,"end":23966.41,"text":"第35條我們的立法"},{"start":23966.41,"end":23968.41,"text":"的一個精神啦那我想大家"},{"start":23968.41,"end":23970.41,"text":"既然都是非常關心"},{"start":23970.41,"end":23972.41,"text":"這樣子的一個狀況跟這樣子的"},{"start":23972.41,"end":23974.41,"text":"問題那其實大家也都往這個"},{"start":23974.41,"end":23976.41,"text":"方向去調整那我相信這個"},{"start":23976.41,"end":23978.41,"text":"方向其實應該其他的委員"},{"start":23978.41,"end":23980.41,"text":"應該也都同意啦"},{"start":23980.41,"end":23982.41,"text":"那現在就是看趙偉"},{"start":23982.41,"end":23984.41,"text":"您的意見"},{"start":23986.47,"end":23988.47,"text":"跟郭委員報告因為剛剛還是有其他委員"},{"start":23988.47,"end":23990.47,"text":"表達出不同的意見"},{"start":23990.47,"end":23992.47,"text":"不是只有我啦"},{"start":23992.47,"end":23994.47,"text":"不好意思不好意思"},{"start":23994.29,"end":23996.29,"text":"好那因為大家委員都非常"},{"start":23997.93,"end":23999.93,"text":"積極的表達自己的意見"},{"start":23999.93,"end":24001.93,"text":"那也因為有不同的意見"},{"start":24001.93,"end":24003.93,"text":"所以做主席我還是"},{"start":24003.93,"end":24005.93,"text":"要跟大家說聲我們就是保留"},{"start":24005.93,"end":24007.93,"text":"松院會處理那再來整合"},{"start":24007.93,"end":24009.93,"text":"大家的意見到時候政黨協商"},{"start":24009.93,"end":24011.93,"text":"那郭議員所"},{"start":24011.93,"end":24013.93,"text":"提出的附帶決議一併保留"},{"start":24013.93,"end":24015.93,"text":"那我們都尊重"},{"start":24015.93,"end":24017.93,"text":"大家的意見所以一併保留到時候"},{"start":24017.93,"end":24019.93,"text":"一併再來處理"},{"start":24019.93,"end":24021.93,"text":"審查結果免於重複宣讀"},{"start":24021.93,"end":24023.93,"text":"再不影響條文文以前提下"},{"start":24023.93,"end":24025.93,"text":"文字條次及標點符號"},{"start":24025.93,"end":24027.93,"text":"為統一體例授權"},{"start":24027.93,"end":24029.93,"text":"醫治人員處理列入紀錄"},{"start":24029.93,"end":24031.93,"text":"本案逐條已處理完畢"},{"start":24031.93,"end":24033.93,"text":"作以下宣告大選法第35條條文"},{"start":24033.93,"end":24035.93,"text":"相關修正草案以全部"},{"start":24035.93,"end":24037.93,"text":"審查完畢並按擬據"},{"start":24037.93,"end":24039.93,"text":"審查報告提起"},{"start":24039.93,"end":24041.93,"text":"院會公決本案"},{"start":24041.93,"end":24043.93,"text":"須交由政黨協商院會"},{"start":24043.93,"end":24045.93,"text":"討論時由羅召集委員"},{"start":24045.93,"end":24047.93,"text":"庭委補充說明"},{"start":24047.8,"end":24049.8,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24050.67,"end":24052.67,"text":"另外我要補充說"},{"start":24052.67,"end":24054.67,"text":"補充宣告"},{"start":24056.32,"end":24058.32,"text":"我要補充宣告剛才"},{"start":24058.32,"end":24060.32,"text":"高級中等教育法"},{"start":24061.37,"end":24063.37,"text":"委員羅庭委第58條"},{"start":24063.37,"end":24065.37,"text":"也有提出修正動議"},{"start":24065.37,"end":24067.37,"text":"一併列入紀錄"},{"start":24067.37,"end":24069.37,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24070.46,"end":24072.46,"text":"現在繼續進行專科學校法第40條"},{"start":24072.46,"end":24074.46,"text":"條文修正逐條審查"},{"start":24074.46,"end":24076.46,"text":"第40條條文修正"},{"start":24076.46,"end":24078.46,"text":"有委員柯志恩等16人"},{"start":24078.46,"end":24080.46,"text":"等16個提案以及委員陳秀寶等人"},{"start":24080.46,"end":24082.46,"text":"委員吳思瑤等人"},{"start":24082.46,"end":24084.46,"text":"還有委員羅庭委等人"},{"start":24084.46,"end":24086.46,"text":"所提的修正動議"},{"start":24086.46,"end":24088.46,"text":"那現在是不是請大家"},{"start":24088.46,"end":24090.46,"text":"發表意見謝謝"},{"start":24096.33,"end":24098.33,"text":"委員吳立華"},{"start":24098.33,"end":24100.33,"text":"也有提出這個修正動議"},{"start":24100.33,"end":24102.33,"text":"這個我一併唸出來"},{"start":24102.33,"end":24104.33,"text":"那再來我們先"},{"start":24104.33,"end":24106.33,"text":"翻到這個第44條謝謝"},{"start":24107.74,"end":24109.74,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24115.57,"end":24117.57,"text":"好"},{"start":24117.27,"end":24119.27,"text":"好我們看到大家的版本"},{"start":24119.27,"end":24121.27,"text":"請大家舉手謝謝吳思瑤委員"},{"start":24121.81,"end":24123.81,"text":"其實專科學校法跟剛剛"},{"start":24123.81,"end":24125.81,"text":"大學法35條是完全"},{"start":24125.81,"end":24127.81,"text":"一致的狀況啦"},{"start":24127.81,"end":24129.81,"text":"因為大學法"},{"start":24129.81,"end":24131.81,"text":"跟專科學校一樣在高教"},{"start":24131.81,"end":24133.81,"text":"的部分所以條件上"},{"start":24133.81,"end":24135.81,"text":"如果說主席"},{"start":24135.81,"end":24137.81,"text":"都覺得說這沒有共識"},{"start":24137.81,"end":24139.81,"text":"那我覺得我也"},{"start":24139.81,"end":24141.81,"text":"喜字如驚了啦否則講了"},{"start":24141.81,"end":24143.81,"text":"一堆主席之後也沒有尊重"},{"start":24143.81,"end":24145.81,"text":"我們的說法"},{"start":24145.74,"end":24147.74,"text":"那這樣既然都一樣的東西"},{"start":24147.74,"end":24149.74,"text":"剛剛大學法保留了那專科學校法"},{"start":24149.74,"end":24151.74,"text":"就一併保留吧"},{"start":24151.74,"end":24153.74,"text":"應該也不太可能有什麼突破了"},{"start":24155.66,"end":24157.66,"text":"不會啦不會說不聽你意見"},{"start":24157.66,"end":24159.66,"text":"就同意保留嘛"},{"start":24159.66,"end":24161.66,"text":"相同的狀況"},{"start":24161.66,"end":24163.66,"text":"因為也不好意思說大學的"},{"start":24163.66,"end":24165.66,"text":"保留這個沒保留也很奇怪"},{"start":24165.66,"end":24167.66,"text":"那我們就保留"},{"start":24167.66,"end":24169.66,"text":"送院會協商"},{"start":24169.66,"end":24171.66,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24171.66,"end":24173.66,"text":"保留歸保留"},{"start":24173.66,"end":24175.66,"text":"吳思瑤委"},{"start":24175.66,"end":24177.66,"text":"我還是提醒一下因為保留歸保留"},{"start":24177.66,"end":24179.66,"text":"但是因為我的文字可能"},{"start":24179.66,"end":24181.66,"text":"有一個部分很重要就是"},{"start":24181.66,"end":24183.66,"text":"涉及原住民部分"},{"start":24183.66,"end":24185.66,"text":"有教育部會同中央原住民組"},{"start":24185.66,"end":24187.66,"text":"主觀機關定制"},{"start":24187.66,"end":24189.66,"text":"就是不要落掉"},{"start":24189.66,"end":24191.66,"text":"這段話"},{"start":24191.66,"end":24193.66,"text":"這很重要對不起"},{"start":24193.11,"end":24195.11,"text":"不好意思剛剛沒看到你舉手"},{"start":24195.11,"end":24197.11,"text":"那就保留送院會協商"},{"start":24200.53,"end":24202.53,"text":"繼續進行"},{"start":24202.53,"end":24204.53,"text":"對不起保留送院會協商"},{"start":24204.53,"end":24206.53,"text":"那委員吳思瑤等人所提的"},{"start":24206.53,"end":24208.53,"text":"附帶決議一併保留處理"},{"start":24208.53,"end":24210.53,"text":"審查結果免於重複宣讀"},{"start":24210.53,"end":24212.53,"text":"在不影響條文文藝前提下"},{"start":24212.53,"end":24214.53,"text":"文字條及標點符號"},{"start":24214.53,"end":24216.53,"text":"為統一體例"},{"start":24216.53,"end":24218.53,"text":"授權議事人員整理列入紀錄"},{"start":24218.53,"end":24220.53,"text":"本案逐條"},{"start":24220.53,"end":24222.53,"text":"已經均已處理完畢"},{"start":24222.53,"end":24224.53,"text":"作以下宣告專科學校法"},{"start":24224.53,"end":24226.53,"text":"第44條"},{"start":24226.53,"end":24228.53,"text":"條文修正相關的修正長按"},{"start":24228.53,"end":24230.53,"text":"以全部審查完畢"},{"start":24230.53,"end":24232.53,"text":"並按你具審查報告"},{"start":24232.53,"end":24234.53,"text":"提請院會公決"},{"start":24234.53,"end":24236.53,"text":"本案須交由政黨協商"},{"start":24236.53,"end":24238.53,"text":"院會表決時由羅召集委員"},{"start":24238.53,"end":24240.53,"text":"聽為補充說明以上謝謝"},{"start":24242.35,"end":24244.35,"text":"好我們另外進入到下一個環節"},{"start":24246.91,"end":24248.91,"text":"繼續審查學校營養"},{"start":24248.91,"end":24250.91,"text":"學校午餐及飲食"},{"start":24250.91,"end":24252.91,"text":"教育條例相關的草案"},{"start":24252.91,"end":24254.91,"text":"本案前經"},{"start":24254.91,"end":24256.91,"text":"114年11月27日"},{"start":24256.91,"end":24258.91,"text":"召開第四會期"},{"start":24258.91,"end":24260.91,"text":"教育文化委員會"},{"start":24260.91,"end":24262.91,"text":"第八次全體委員會決議"},{"start":24262.91,"end":24264.91,"text":"審查結果"},{"start":24264.91,"end":24266.91,"text":"法案名稱照委員"},{"start":24266.91,"end":24268.91,"text":"柯志恩等21人委員陳培瑜"},{"start":24268.91,"end":24270.91,"text":"等26人提案通過"},{"start":24270.91,"end":24272.91,"text":"各章章明均不予採納"},{"start":24272.91,"end":24274.91,"text":"第一條"},{"start":24274.91,"end":24276.91,"text":"暫時保留"},{"start":24276.91,"end":24278.91,"text":"第二條修正通過"},{"start":24278.91,"end":24280.91,"text":"現在進行逐條審查"},{"start":24289.67,"end":24291.67,"text":"好我們先翻開這一個"},{"start":24291.67,"end":24293.67,"text":"各個委員的版本"},{"start":24293.67,"end":24295.67,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24297.97,"end":24299.97,"text":"那剛剛有宣告說"},{"start":24299.97,"end":24301.97,"text":"第二條修正通過"},{"start":24303.4,"end":24305.4,"text":"那現在我們就看第三條吧"},{"start":24305.4,"end":24307.4,"text":"主席"},{"start":24307.4,"end":24309.4,"text":"還要再把暫保留再處理一次"},{"start":24309.4,"end":24311.4,"text":"是嗎 好好好"},{"start":24311.4,"end":24313.4,"text":"主席我可以程序發言一下嗎"},{"start":24313.4,"end":24315.4,"text":"可以可以 等我一下 我先釐清一下"},{"start":24315.62,"end":24317.62,"text":"程序發言"},{"start":24318.69,"end":24320.69,"text":"優先 好嗎"},{"start":24320.69,"end":24322.69,"text":"OK OK 好請說"},{"start":24322.69,"end":24324.69,"text":"是我想提議在場的委員"},{"start":24324.69,"end":24326.69,"text":"大家商量一下"},{"start":24326.69,"end":24328.69,"text":"學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例"},{"start":24328.69,"end":24330.69,"text":"現在在手上有39案"},{"start":24332.8,"end":24334.8,"text":"39個案"},{"start":24334.81,"end":24338.81,"text":"那要修的條文大概有20幾條"},{"start":24338.81,"end":24340.81,"text":"那如果以上一個會期"},{"start":24340.81,"end":24342.81,"text":"上一個會期"},{"start":24342.81,"end":24344.81,"text":"我記得"},{"start":24344.81,"end":24346.81,"text":"雖然那個時候我不在教育文化委員會"},{"start":24346.81,"end":24348.81,"text":"但是大家在審查"},{"start":24348.81,"end":24350.81,"text":"光"},{"start":24350.49,"end":24352.49,"text":"條文名稱"},{"start":24352.49,"end":24354.49,"text":"第一條跟第二條"},{"start":24354.49,"end":24356.49,"text":"好像就"},{"start":24356.14,"end":24358.14,"text":"搞了一整個會"},{"start":24358.89,"end":24360.89,"text":"兩次會議"},{"start":24360.89,"end":24362.89,"text":"那因為我是又"},{"start":24362.89,"end":24364.89,"text":"剛剛修這個學代三法"},{"start":24364.89,"end":24366.89,"text":"條文是四個條文"},{"start":24366.89,"end":24368.89,"text":"但是看到這個"},{"start":24368.89,"end":24370.89,"text":"討論起來的狀況"},{"start":24372.71,"end":24374.71,"text":"我們努力的在共識上去達成共識"},{"start":24374.71,"end":24376.71,"text":"但都沒有辦法共識"},{"start":24376.71,"end":24378.71,"text":"那四個條文的法都這樣"},{"start":24378.71,"end":24380.71,"text":"那這個有20幾個條文"},{"start":24380.71,"end":24382.71,"text":"39案"},{"start":24384.1,"end":24386.1,"text":"的營養午餐條例"},{"start":24386.1,"end":24388.1,"text":"我是建議教育部要多花一點時間"},{"start":24388.1,"end":24390.1,"text":"跟委員們再溝通"},{"start":24390.75,"end":24392.75,"text":"否則我們現在就逐條下去"},{"start":24392.75,"end":24394.75,"text":"不光一個條文"},{"start":24394.75,"end":24396.75,"text":"可能就講三個小時"},{"start":24396.75,"end":24398.75,"text":"然後結論主席的才是還是一樣"},{"start":24398.75,"end":24400.75,"text":"沒有共識"},{"start":24400.55,"end":24402.55,"text":"那我覺得這樣子委員會的討論"},{"start":24402.55,"end":24404.55,"text":"似乎就沒有太大的意義"},{"start":24406.02,"end":24408.02,"text":"所以我是個人覺得"},{"start":24408.02,"end":24410.02,"text":"就如同我們在場委員"},{"start":24410.02,"end":24412.02,"text":"我們都很希望時間"},{"start":24411.18,"end":24413.18,"text":"在沒有共識的議案"},{"start":24413.18,"end":24415.18,"text":"還有其他奇異過大的議案"},{"start":24415.18,"end":24417.18,"text":"大家都"},{"start":24417.9,"end":24419.9,"text":"現在省點力氣"},{"start":24420.01,"end":24422.01,"text":"省點時間"},{"start":24422.01,"end":24424.01,"text":"我們把時間應當用在"},{"start":24424.01,"end":24426.01,"text":"我們很急的預算案上"},{"start":24426.01,"end":24428.01,"text":"趕快來審預算"},{"start":24428.01,"end":24430.01,"text":"所以說我們提議說"},{"start":24430.01,"end":24432.01,"text":"我們現在要審查的"},{"start":24432.01,"end":24434.01,"text":"學校公參法草案"},{"start":24434.01,"end":24436.01,"text":"等等相關的修正草案"},{"start":24436.92,"end":24438.92,"text":"那因為有鑑於地方制度法"},{"start":24438.92,"end":24440.92,"text":"第18條、第19條的規定"},{"start":24440.92,"end":24442.92,"text":"當中很重要的"},{"start":24442.92,"end":24444.92,"text":"我想這個修法有一個很重要的核心"},{"start":24444.92,"end":24446.92,"text":"就在中央跟地方"},{"start":24446.92,"end":24448.92,"text":"對於營養午餐費的分擔上"},{"start":24448.92,"end":24450.92,"text":"其實連中央跟地方"},{"start":24450.92,"end":24452.92,"text":"都沒有共識"},{"start":24452.92,"end":24454.92,"text":"所以今天立委在這邊討論"},{"start":24454.92,"end":24456.92,"text":"討論完"},{"start":24456.56,"end":24458.56,"text":"我們都會問行政部門一件事"},{"start":24458.56,"end":24460.56,"text":"你們跟地方政府溝通了沒"},{"start":24460.98,"end":24462.98,"text":"所以這個法不是只有營養午餐法本身"},{"start":24462.98,"end":24464.98,"text":"還跟地方制度法"},{"start":24464.98,"end":24466.98,"text":"相關的規定裡頭"},{"start":24466.98,"end":24468.98,"text":"營養午餐為地方自治的事項"},{"start":24468.98,"end":24470.98,"text":"而且現在22個縣市"},{"start":24470.98,"end":24472.98,"text":"他們運作的機制不一啦"},{"start":24472.98,"end":24474.98,"text":"我會希望教育部"},{"start":24474.98,"end":24476.98,"text":"中央政府跟地方政府"},{"start":24476.98,"end":24478.98,"text":"持續的溝通"},{"start":24479.11,"end":24481.11,"text":"再來進行我們營養午餐的討論"},{"start":24481.11,"end":24483.11,"text":"否則每一條卡住"},{"start":24483.11,"end":24485.11,"text":"每一條花時間"},{"start":24485.11,"end":24487.11,"text":"沒有共識"},{"start":24487.11,"end":24489.11,"text":"因為爭議真的很大"},{"start":24489.11,"end":24491.11,"text":"所以我是具體的提案"},{"start":24491.11,"end":24493.11,"text":"我們剛剛也完成學代三法了"},{"start":24493.11,"end":24495.11,"text":"我們希望未來的時間是"},{"start":24495.11,"end":24497.11,"text":"保留給審查預算,預算優先"},{"start":24497.11,"end":24499.11,"text":"拖了286天"},{"start":24499.11,"end":24501.11,"text":"所以我正式我們武力華委員"},{"start":24501.11,"end":24503.11,"text":"陳秀寶委員、郭玉琴委員"},{"start":24503.11,"end":24505.11,"text":"跟吳思瑤委員我們提議"},{"start":24505.11,"end":24507.11,"text":"今天的會議到此為止"},{"start":24507.34,"end":24509.34,"text":"相關的法案審查我們另定期來審議"},{"start":24509.34,"end":24513.34,"text":"我們具體提出這個議案請主席來公決"},{"start":24515.52,"end":24517.52,"text":"好,是不是處理這個動議"},{"start":24517.52,"end":24519.52,"text":"是優先"},{"start":24519.52,"end":24521.52,"text":"但是我還是讓我先回應一下"},{"start":24521.52,"end":24523.52,"text":"那我還是要再次強調"},{"start":24523.52,"end":24525.52,"text":"剛剛有一些法案"},{"start":24525.52,"end":24527.52,"text":"並沒有說差距很大"},{"start":24527.52,"end":24529.52,"text":"就是因為看到差距"},{"start":24529.52,"end":24531.52,"text":"已經快要完成可以進入到"},{"start":24531.52,"end":24533.52,"text":"入法"},{"start":24533.52,"end":24535.52,"text":"所以很多的委員"},{"start":24535.52,"end":24537.52,"text":"就希望說應該要"},{"start":24537.52,"end":24539.52,"text":"以學生權益最大化"},{"start":24539.52,"end":24541.52,"text":"然後把它給入法"},{"start":24541.52,"end":24543.52,"text":"所以剛剛也有參酌其他的委員意見"},{"start":24543.52,"end":24545.52,"text":"所以我們休會嘛"},{"start":24545.52,"end":24547.52,"text":"那休會的時候我們休息"},{"start":24547.52,"end":24549.52,"text":"去做討論"},{"start":24549.52,"end":24551.52,"text":"那其實委員還是要尊重很多委員的意見"},{"start":24551.52,"end":24553.52,"text":"所以我希望說"},{"start":24553.52,"end":24555.52,"text":"吳思瑤委員很關切"},{"start":24555.52,"end":24557.52,"text":"那這真的不是"},{"start":24557.52,"end":24559.52,"text":"召委能夠單一獨斷來決定的"},{"start":24559.52,"end":24561.52,"text":"我們還是有尊重其他委員的意見"},{"start":24561.52,"end":24563.52,"text":"那再來第二個就是說"},{"start":24567.35,"end":24569.35,"text":"很可惜啦"},{"start":24569.35,"end":24571.35,"text":"因為營養午餐要進入足條討論"},{"start":24571.35,"end":24573.35,"text":"然後就被強制的休息"},{"start":24573.35,"end":24575.35,"text":"我覺得這個部分"},{"start":24575.35,"end":24577.35,"text":"我覺得很可惜"},{"start":24577.35,"end":24579.35,"text":"因為有一些委員"},{"start":24579.11,"end":24581.11,"text":"大家"},{"start":24580.41,"end":24582.41,"text":"焦點沒有錯"},{"start":24582.41,"end":24584.41,"text":"只是焦點不一樣"},{"start":24584.41,"end":24586.41,"text":"你的焦點可能是中央地方"},{"start":24586.41,"end":24588.41,"text":"如何分錢"},{"start":24588.57,"end":24590.57,"text":"可是今天我記得羅志祥委員"},{"start":24590.57,"end":24592.57,"text":"我們都有在提到實農教育"},{"start":24594.11,"end":24596.11,"text":"飲食文化禮儀"},{"start":24597.1,"end":24599.1,"text":"這個部分我相信是比較有共識的"},{"start":24599.1,"end":24601.1,"text":"我們應該來試著討論看看"},{"start":24601.1,"end":24603.1,"text":"很可惜就有人提出動議"},{"start":24603.1,"end":24605.1,"text":"要強制"},{"start":24605.1,"end":24607.1,"text":"我們就要休息"},{"start":24606.31,"end":24608.31,"text":"那對於營養午餐的部分"},{"start":24608.31,"end":24610.31,"text":"我認為"},{"start":24609.79,"end":24611.79,"text":"沒有討論"},{"start":24611.91,"end":24613.91,"text":"就要求要散會"},{"start":24613.91,"end":24615.91,"text":"這個部分很可惜啦"},{"start":24615.91,"end":24617.91,"text":"我只能說在處理動議之前"},{"start":24617.91,"end":24619.91,"text":"我們還是有可以發言的權利"},{"start":24623.89,"end":24625.89,"text":"吳非議委員先發言"},{"start":24630.95,"end":24632.95,"text":"好"},{"start":24632.95,"end":24634.95,"text":"這個我要附議吳思雅委員的提議"},{"start":24634.95,"end":24636.95,"text":"因為當前面的幾個法"},{"start":24636.95,"end":24638.95,"text":"如同焦委剛所說的"},{"start":24638.95,"end":24640.95,"text":"其實大家共識的程度"},{"start":24640.95,"end":24642.95,"text":"蠻高的"},{"start":24642.95,"end":24644.95,"text":"但是經過討論之後"},{"start":24644.95,"end":24646.95,"text":"最後仍然是保留"},{"start":24646.95,"end":24648.95,"text":"就是說在委員會沒有結論"},{"start":24648.95,"end":24650.95,"text":"沒有辦法達成共識的狀況"},{"start":24650.95,"end":24652.95,"text":"那現在營養午餐法"},{"start":24652.95,"end":24654.95,"text":"因為我自己已經有提案"},{"start":24654.95,"end":24656.95,"text":"特別針對剛焦委所講到的這個飲食教育"},{"start":24656.95,"end":24658.95,"text":"這個也是我非常重視的"},{"start":24658.95,"end":24660.95,"text":"其實首篇的這個提案有39個版本"},{"start":24660.95,"end":24662.95,"text":"那上個會期我們也在教委會嘛"},{"start":24662.95,"end":24664.95,"text":"這討論的狀況"},{"start":24664.95,"end":24666.95,"text":"連到這個文字的細節"},{"start":24666.95,"end":24668.95,"text":"其實大家的意見很多都不相同"},{"start":24668.95,"end":24670.95,"text":"那其中我也最關切的是"},{"start":24670.95,"end":24672.95,"text":"我們真的是希望這個"},{"start":24672.95,"end":24674.95,"text":"營養午餐法"},{"start":24674.95,"end":24676.95,"text":"大家等待很久了"},{"start":24676.95,"end":24678.95,"text":"立下去之後是實務上要可以推動的"},{"start":24678.95,"end":24680.95,"text":"所以我們也要拜託教育部"},{"start":24680.95,"end":24682.95,"text":"是要"},{"start":24682.95,"end":24684.95,"text":"真的要跟地方政府"},{"start":24684.95,"end":24686.95,"text":"而且就我所知光台北新北"},{"start":24686.95,"end":24688.95,"text":"就不同縣市的狀況真的都不大一樣"},{"start":24688.95,"end":24690.95,"text":"就是趕快來跟地方政府討論"},{"start":24690.95,"end":24692.95,"text":"除了補助"},{"start":24692.95,"end":24694.95,"text":"補助是其中一項而已"},{"start":24694.95,"end":24696.95,"text":"像我們剛剛講的飲食教育要去推動"},{"start":24696.95,"end":24698.95,"text":"若是到地方政府的時候"},{"start":24698.95,"end":24700.95,"text":"要請他,我希望法律下去就要有"},{"start":24700.95,"end":24702.95,"text":"有執行,有效果,有成效"},{"start":24702.95,"end":24704.95,"text":"可以趕快來規劃"},{"start":24704.95,"end":24706.95,"text":"所以我也是希望說"},{"start":24706.95,"end":24708.95,"text":"讓教育部先去跟地方政府溝通"},{"start":24708.95,"end":24710.95,"text":"休息不是說躺平"},{"start":24710.95,"end":24712.95,"text":"不是說教育部也不能說"},{"start":24712.95,"end":24714.95,"text":"這次假設沒盡到足條都不動"},{"start":24714.95,"end":24716.95,"text":"一定要趕快去跟地方政府溝通"},{"start":24716.95,"end":24718.95,"text":"我們是希望這個法案是有進度"},{"start":24718.95,"end":24720.95,"text":"有辦法往前"},{"start":24720.95,"end":24722.95,"text":"才希望說跟地方政府的溝通要先做到"},{"start":24722.95,"end":24724.95,"text":"再來去討論立法技術"},{"start":24724.95,"end":24726.95,"text":"細節文字的問題"},{"start":24726.95,"end":24728.95,"text":"所以我再次呼籲吳思瑤委員"},{"start":24728.95,"end":24730.95,"text":"我希望可以等教育部跟地方政府"},{"start":24730.95,"end":24732.95,"text":"溝通完整之後"},{"start":24732.95,"end":24734.95,"text":"我們再來進行這個法案的進行"},{"start":24737.1,"end":24739.1,"text":"好,羅志祥委員"},{"start":24743.58,"end":24745.58,"text":"當然還是尊重我們這個委員提起的"},{"start":24745.58,"end":24747.58,"text":"提出的散會動議"},{"start":24747.58,"end":24749.58,"text":"但是既然都覺得"},{"start":24749.58,"end":24751.58,"text":"營養午餐法大家在"},{"start":24751.58,"end":24753.58,"text":"這個審查過程當中"},{"start":24753.58,"end":24755.58,"text":"可能要花蠻多的溝通"},{"start":24755.58,"end":24757.58,"text":"跟審查的時間"},{"start":24757.58,"end":24759.58,"text":"那也這麼難得大家已經"},{"start":24759.58,"end":24761.58,"text":"到這個地方來,那是不是我覺得"},{"start":24761.58,"end":24763.58,"text":"今天還是可以考慮"},{"start":24763.58,"end":24765.58,"text":"就是我們今天用一個下午時間"},{"start":24765.58,"end":24767.58,"text":"法案能夠往前推進到"},{"start":24767.58,"end":24769.58,"text":"什麼程度就往前推進"},{"start":24769.58,"end":24771.58,"text":"那如果說真的"},{"start":24771.58,"end":24773.58,"text":"推進到多走個兩步"},{"start":24773.58,"end":24775.58,"text":"那最後還有很多溝通要做"},{"start":24775.58,"end":24777.58,"text":"那其實也不妨害說今天"},{"start":24777.58,"end":24779.58,"text":"這個我覺得執政黨委員"},{"start":24779.58,"end":24781.58,"text":"所提的一個想法"},{"start":24781.58,"end":24783.58,"text":"當然我還是要講啦"},{"start":24783.58,"end":24785.58,"text":"尊重啦,因為這個是"},{"start":24785.58,"end":24787.58,"text":"本來提出程序上的一個動議"},{"start":24787.58,"end":24789.58,"text":"就是立委的權利"},{"start":24789.58,"end":24791.58,"text":"所以這點是尊重,以上"},{"start":24796.21,"end":24798.21,"text":"我從那個順序啦"},{"start":24798.21,"end":24800.21,"text":"剛剛,就是那個劉樹斌委員先"},{"start":24805.9,"end":24807.9,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":24808.7,"end":24810.7,"text":"營養午餐法應該是在"},{"start":24810.7,"end":24812.7,"text":"上個會期就已經有到"},{"start":24812.7,"end":24814.7,"text":"逐條討論了,那包括"},{"start":24814.7,"end":24816.7,"text":"他的法案名稱其實也確定了"},{"start":24816.7,"end":24818.7,"text":"那在一月份的"},{"start":24818.7,"end":24820.7,"text":"委員會會議當中"},{"start":24820.7,"end":24822.7,"text":"已經,我記得是彭署長"},{"start":24822.7,"end":24824.7,"text":"已經就說了"},{"start":24824.7,"end":24826.7,"text":"不好意思,名稱到底有沒有通過了"},{"start":24828.24,"end":24830.24,"text":"不好意思,怎麼次長說"},{"start":24830.24,"end":24832.24,"text":"沒有,啊,祖密說有"},{"start":24833.29,"end":24835.29,"text":"有有有,已經名稱確定了"},{"start":24835.29,"end":24837.29,"text":"來,我們以"},{"start":24837.45,"end":24839.45,"text":"我們以教文委員會"},{"start":24839.45,"end":24841.45,"text":"對不起,讓你論述前我們先確認一下"},{"start":24841.45,"end":24843.45,"text":"好"},{"start":24845.01,"end":24847.01,"text":"名稱有三了"},{"start":24847.56,"end":24849.56,"text":"第三會期,第三次全體會議一思路"},{"start":24852.44,"end":24854.44,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":24854.92,"end":24856.92,"text":"可是這裡不是有寫陳培育委員的"},{"start":24856.92,"end":24858.92,"text":"提案通過嗎,對啊對啊"},{"start":24858.92,"end":24860.92,"text":"是"},{"start":24861.18,"end":24863.18,"text":"我們這裡的第一頁"},{"start":24863.18,"end":24865.18,"text":"給我的版本就是"},{"start":24865.18,"end":24867.18,"text":"法案名稱照委員"},{"start":24867.18,"end":24869.18,"text":"柯志恩等21人,及委員陳培育"},{"start":24869.18,"end":24871.18,"text":"等26人,提案通過"},{"start":24871.18,"end":24873.18,"text":"所以是有進度的喔"},{"start":24873.18,"end":24875.18,"text":"是的"},{"start":24875.18,"end":24877.18,"text":"所以他叫做學校"},{"start":24877.18,"end":24879.18,"text":"共產法嗎"},{"start":24879.18,"end":24881.18,"text":"不是,高級中等學校"},{"start":24881.18,"end":24883.18,"text":"好,不好意思,我念一個全名"},{"start":24883.18,"end":24885.18,"text":"高級中等學校也沒有"},{"start":24885.18,"end":24887.18,"text":"也沒有"},{"start":24887.18,"end":24889.18,"text":"我們調出柯志恩"},{"start":24890.73,"end":24892.73,"text":"顯然大家對於名稱是怎麼通過"},{"start":24892.73,"end":24894.73,"text":"有一段時間"},{"start":24894.73,"end":24896.73,"text":"有一段時間幫大家回憶一下"},{"start":24896.73,"end":24898.73,"text":"沒關係,你看陳培育嗎"},{"start":24901.63,"end":24903.63,"text":"學校午餐及飲食教育條例朝案"},{"start":24907.89,"end":24909.89,"text":"這是名稱,當時通過的"},{"start":24909.89,"end":24911.89,"text":"所以也跟次長報告"},{"start":24911.89,"end":24913.89,"text":"次長,對我知道"},{"start":24913.89,"end":24915.89,"text":"但次長您剛剛有提到可能名稱"},{"start":24915.89,"end":24917.89,"text":"這個部分都還沒有定案"},{"start":24918.34,"end":24920.34,"text":"好,那蘇彬委員不好意思"},{"start":24920.34,"end":24922.34,"text":"第二條也有修正通過"},{"start":24924.09,"end":24926.09,"text":"第二條也有啦"},{"start":24929.25,"end":24931.25,"text":"只有第一條保留"},{"start":24931.25,"end":24933.25,"text":"來來來,我跟大家"},{"start":24933.25,"end":24935.25,"text":"因為時間真的很久了"},{"start":24935.25,"end":24937.25,"text":"這件事情也拖很久了"},{"start":24937.25,"end":24939.25,"text":"再一次我重複"},{"start":24938.28,"end":24940.28,"text":"我還是會處理動議啦"},{"start":24940.28,"end":24942.28,"text":"我一定尊重委員,讓大家充分表達論述"},{"start":24942.28,"end":24944.28,"text":"法案名稱,趙委員"},{"start":24944.28,"end":24946.28,"text":"柯志恩還有陳培育委員等"},{"start":24946.28,"end":24948.28,"text":"26人,提案通過"},{"start":24948.28,"end":24950.28,"text":"確定喔"},{"start":24949.99,"end":24951.99,"text":"來,各張章明,均不予採納"},{"start":24954.58,"end":24956.58,"text":"然後第一條"},{"start":24956.96,"end":24958.96,"text":"暫時保留"},{"start":24958.45,"end":24960.45,"text":"第二條,修正通過"},{"start":24962.95,"end":24964.95,"text":"來我們請那個"},{"start":24966.33,"end":24968.33,"text":"第二條來,哪一個"},{"start":24969.67,"end":24971.67,"text":"對不起對不起"},{"start":24971.19,"end":24973.19,"text":"第二條"},{"start":24972.5,"end":24974.5,"text":"喔,那可能要"},{"start":24974.5,"end":24976.5,"text":"醫事人員念一下"},{"start":24976.05,"end":24978.05,"text":"我們是請醫事人員念一下第二條"},{"start":24980.57,"end":24982.57,"text":"好,我們念完就"},{"start":24982.36,"end":24984.36,"text":"那個,劉書彬永遠繼續發言喔"},{"start":24985.84,"end":24987.84,"text":"第二條,本條例所稱主管機關在中央"},{"start":24989.97,"end":24993.63,"text":"在中央為教育部,在此為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止,為止"},{"start":24994.83,"end":24997.210000000003,"text":"在縣市為縣市政府以下解稱"},{"start":24997.210000000003,"end":24998.410000000003,"text":"我們文字看一下"},{"start":24998.410000000003,"end":24999.690000000002,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":24999.690000000002,"end":25004.95,"text":"主管機關掌理學校午餐與飲食教育之規劃推動及監督等事項"},{"start":25004.95,"end":25009.170000000002,"text":"本條例所訂事項涉及中央各目的事業主管機關執掌者"},{"start":25009.170000000002,"end":25013.13,"text":"由中央各目的事業主管機關辦理,其權責劃分如下"},{"start":25013.13,"end":25023.030000000002,"text":"一、衛生福利主管機關學校午餐營養與均衡飲食廚房與校園飲食衛生安全之規劃推動及監督事項"},{"start":25023.53,"end":25029.17,"text":"二、農業主管機關學校午餐食材師源頭端抽檢驗"},{"start":25029.17,"end":25033.61,"text":"監督及輔導供應國產農產品對動事項"},{"start":25034.44,"end":25042.18,"text":"三、環境主管機關預防具食品安全風險疑慮之毒性以關注化學物質"},{"start":25042.18,"end":25046.18,"text":"流入學校午餐食品鏈及處於在利用之推動事項"},{"start":25046.18,"end":25054.3,"text":"四、其他學校午餐及飲食教育相關事項由各各中央目的事業主管機關一職權辦理"},{"start":25054.3,"end":25055.1,"text":"四、第一…"},{"start":25055.1,"end":25056.18,"text":"喔,沒有了"},{"start":25056.18,"end":25058.18,"text":"以上宣讀完畢"},{"start":25060.300000000003,"end":25062.7,"text":"其實教育部也有建議版本"},{"start":25062.7,"end":25064.7,"text":"所以有些有先通過了"},{"start":25064.7,"end":25066.7,"text":"謝謝我們前召委"},{"start":25066.7,"end":25068.7,"text":"那請劉書賓委員繼續"},{"start":25068.7,"end":25070.7,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":25071.82,"end":25073.82,"text":"因為在上個會期"},{"start":25073.82,"end":25077.82,"text":"有經過至少大概兩次的一個逐條討論"},{"start":25077.82,"end":25079.82,"text":"那我們這過程當中"},{"start":25079.82,"end":25082.82,"text":"經歷了非常大的一個變化"},{"start":25082.82,"end":25086.82,"text":"因為至少在1月中旬在審理的時候"},{"start":25086.82,"end":25089.82,"text":"當初是有十幾…十九個縣市政府"},{"start":25089.82,"end":25091.82,"text":"他們是說變成…"},{"start":25091.82,"end":25093.82,"text":"通通變成營養午餐是免費"},{"start":25093.82,"end":25095.82,"text":"當初還有三個"},{"start":25095.82,"end":25096.82,"text":"可是到現在為止"},{"start":25096.82,"end":25098.82,"text":"大概前一個月都已經知道是"},{"start":25098.82,"end":25100.82,"text":"包括新北、嘉義"},{"start":25100.96,"end":25102.96,"text":"通通都已經有變成"},{"start":25102.96,"end":25104.96,"text":"就是22縣市通通都已經是變成"},{"start":25104.96,"end":25108.96,"text":"縣市來去營養午餐免費"},{"start":25108.96,"end":25111.96,"text":"那從1月份到現在"},{"start":25111.96,"end":25113.96,"text":"已經將近到5個月的時間"},{"start":25113.96,"end":25115.96,"text":"叫…我記得是彭署長"},{"start":25115.96,"end":25117.96,"text":"國家署這邊"},{"start":25117.96,"end":25119.96,"text":"有跟…就一直在…當初就有說"},{"start":25119.96,"end":25123.96,"text":"就是要跟地方政府要做的是協商"},{"start":25123.96,"end":25125.96,"text":"那在協商的過程中"},{"start":25125.96,"end":25126.96,"text":"我想這時間應該有些進度"},{"start":25126.96,"end":25128.96,"text":"可以請彭署長來做一下報告"},{"start":25129.1,"end":25131.1,"text":"那第二個部分就是說"},{"start":25131.1,"end":25133.1,"text":"現在既然已經是"},{"start":25133.1,"end":25135.1,"text":"地方政府通通都有"},{"start":25135.1,"end":25137.1,"text":"變成是營養午餐免費"},{"start":25137.1,"end":25139.1,"text":"可是在有些部分的時候"},{"start":25139.1,"end":25141.1,"text":"會涉及到的是它的費用這邊"},{"start":25141.1,"end":25143.1,"text":"我們…也就是說"},{"start":25143.1,"end":25145.1,"text":"它變成有些全國一致性的部分"},{"start":25145.1,"end":25147.1,"text":"除了費用之外"},{"start":25147.1,"end":25149.1,"text":"那其實費用裡面最重要的是"},{"start":25149.1,"end":25151.1,"text":"一個食材啦"},{"start":25151.1,"end":25153.1,"text":"那食材部分可能像現在的這個版本"},{"start":25153.1,"end":25155.1,"text":"包括現在有的…"},{"start":25155.1,"end":25157.1,"text":"草擬的版本當中"},{"start":25157.239999999998,"end":25159.239999999998,"text":"也是由各縣市來去收費"},{"start":25159.239999999998,"end":25161.239999999998,"text":"就是各家長等等收費"},{"start":25161.239999999998,"end":25163.239999999998,"text":"可是另外還有很重要的費用"},{"start":25163.239999999998,"end":25165.239999999998,"text":"是在設備啦還有人力部分"},{"start":25165.239999999998,"end":25167.239999999998,"text":"我想這部分可能"},{"start":25167.239999999998,"end":25169.239999999998,"text":"看看交易部或是"},{"start":25169.239999999998,"end":25171.239999999998,"text":"現在目前的委員"},{"start":25171.239999999998,"end":25173.239999999998,"text":"到底說這部分是不是也應該"},{"start":25173.239999999998,"end":25175.239999999998,"text":"有一些統一的標準"},{"start":25175.239999999998,"end":25177.239999999998,"text":"是非常重要的"},{"start":25177.239999999998,"end":25179.239999999998,"text":"那第二個部分我剛才涉及到這個"},{"start":25179.239999999998,"end":25181.239999999998,"text":"人力部分就是包括"},{"start":25181.239999999998,"end":25183.239999999998,"text":"午餐秘書、營養師、還有廚工"},{"start":25183.239999999998,"end":25185.239999999998,"text":"他其實都應該有一個"},{"start":25185.38,"end":25187.38,"text":"相關的設置就是說"},{"start":25187.38,"end":25189.38,"text":"各縣市也許他們有"},{"start":25189.38,"end":25191.38,"text":"財力上面的差距但是"},{"start":25191.38,"end":25193.38,"text":"在於對於說應該在"},{"start":25193.38,"end":25195.38,"text":"什麼樣的規範當中就是"},{"start":25195.38,"end":25197.38,"text":"應該有相關的人力配置還包括"},{"start":25197.38,"end":25199.38,"text":"設備的配置當中呢其實這邊"},{"start":25199.38,"end":25201.38,"text":"可能就會因為它的財力的"},{"start":25201.38,"end":25203.38,"text":"差異性要由"},{"start":25203.38,"end":25205.38,"text":"交易部來做統一規範因為每一個學生"},{"start":25205.38,"end":25207.38,"text":"在各縣市的"},{"start":25207.38,"end":25209.38,"text":"所應該得到的"},{"start":25209.38,"end":25211.38,"text":"一個營養跟他的健康的"},{"start":25211.38,"end":25213.38,"text":"品質的保障是一致的"},{"start":25213.52,"end":25215.52,"text":"所以這部分我建議是"},{"start":25215.52,"end":25217.52,"text":"交易部應該就"},{"start":25217.52,"end":25219.52,"text":"這個部分能夠提出來一個"},{"start":25219.52,"end":25221.52,"text":"全國適用性的標準"},{"start":25221.52,"end":25223.52,"text":"或是說一個指引等等的"},{"start":25223.52,"end":25225.52,"text":"但是因為透過我們現在"},{"start":25225.52,"end":25227.52,"text":"要訂定的是一個營養午餐"},{"start":25227.52,"end":25229.52,"text":"整個這個"},{"start":25229.52,"end":25231.52,"text":"這個算法嘛所以這部分我想是"},{"start":25231.52,"end":25233.52,"text":"交易部責無旁貸的工作要去"},{"start":25233.52,"end":25235.52,"text":"進行那我會提供這樣的一個"},{"start":25235.52,"end":25237.52,"text":"方向尤其是彭"},{"start":25237.52,"end":25239.52,"text":"書長您已經在日本有去"},{"start":25239.52,"end":25241.52,"text":"有去做考察了"},{"start":25241.66,"end":25243.66,"text":"那特別是你就是要說日本在"},{"start":25243.66,"end":25245.66,"text":"1968年就有這樣子的一個"},{"start":25245.66,"end":25247.66,"text":"午餐專法是不是"},{"start":25247.66,"end":25249.66,"text":"也可以就您的這個意見當中"},{"start":25249.66,"end":25251.66,"text":"去提到說以日本的這樣"},{"start":25251.66,"end":25253.66,"text":"經驗來看他們對於全國"},{"start":25253.66,"end":25255.66,"text":"一致性那尤其是本來日本"},{"start":25255.66,"end":25257.66,"text":"他本來在1968年的部分"},{"start":25257.66,"end":25259.66,"text":"也是"},{"start":25260.04,"end":25262.04,"text":"也是有個別收費但是現在已經"},{"start":25262.04,"end":25264.04,"text":"變成東京都來趕花是全部的"},{"start":25264.04,"end":25266.04,"text":"都變成午餐都已經免費了"},{"start":25266.04,"end":25268.04,"text":"我想這樣一個經驗也可以給台灣做一個"},{"start":25268.04,"end":25270.04,"text":"很重要的一個參考"},{"start":25270.04,"end":25272.04,"text":"指教謝謝"},{"start":25273.26,"end":25275.26,"text":"謝謝書兵委員我想你也有去"},{"start":25275.26,"end":25277.26,"text":"了解日本的狀況"},{"start":25277.26,"end":25279.26,"text":"所以你也知道"},{"start":25279.26,"end":25281.26,"text":"那我們下一位剛剛吳思亞委員有舉手"},{"start":25287.38,"end":25289.52,"text":"好好"},{"start":25288.81,"end":25290.95,"text":"葉元之委員謝謝"},{"start":25292.21,"end":25294.21,"text":"因為我們那個條文很多啦"},{"start":25294.21,"end":25296.21,"text":"但是上一次開會的時候其實"},{"start":25296.21,"end":25298.21,"text":"也會往前推進啦"},{"start":25298.21,"end":25300.21,"text":"尤其像我們現在是要討論到第三條"},{"start":25300.21,"end":25302.21,"text":"以我的條文就是說"},{"start":25302.21,"end":25304.21,"text":"希望各級主管機關跟"},{"start":25304.21,"end":25306.21,"text":"學校可以訂定計畫"},{"start":25306.21,"end":25308.21,"text":"那為什麼要訂定計畫就是希望能夠"},{"start":25308.21,"end":25310.21,"text":"在營養午餐這個可以更"},{"start":25310.89,"end":25312.89,"text":"做得更好嘛那大家都是為了這個"},{"start":25312.89,"end":25314.89,"text":"營養午餐學生好啦"},{"start":25314.89,"end":25316.89,"text":"吃的健康吃的營養啦"},{"start":25316.89,"end":25318.89,"text":"然後甚至於食農教育其實"},{"start":25318.89,"end":25320.89,"text":"所以其實如果繼續討論的話"},{"start":25320.89,"end":25322.89,"text":"還是可以往前推進那當然我們也"},{"start":25322.89,"end":25324.89,"text":"尊重"},{"start":25324.27,"end":25326.27,"text":"吳思亞委員他的動議啦"},{"start":25326.27,"end":25328.27,"text":"這個也是他的權利"},{"start":25328.27,"end":25330.27,"text":"只是說可以請吳思亞委員再想一下"},{"start":25330.27,"end":25332.27,"text":"然後第二個剛剛吳佩儀委員講說"},{"start":25332.27,"end":25334.27,"text":"是建議"},{"start":25334.27,"end":25336.27,"text":"行政機關跟地方政府討論完"},{"start":25336.27,"end":25338.27,"text":"討論完之後再來討論"},{"start":25338.27,"end":25340.27,"text":"但我覺得如果是這樣的話"},{"start":25340.27,"end":25342.27,"text":"也要請行政機關壓一個日期啦"},{"start":25342.27,"end":25344.27,"text":"不然的話每一次都用這個理由"},{"start":25344.27,"end":25346.27,"text":"然後不開會不討論"},{"start":25346.27,"end":25348.27,"text":"那一下時間就過了啦"},{"start":25348.27,"end":25350.27,"text":"所以等一下"},{"start":25350.27,"end":25352.27,"text":"可不可以請行政機關說明一下"},{"start":25352.41,"end":25354.41,"text":"假設等一下要散會啦"},{"start":25354.41,"end":25356.41,"text":"已經有委員提散會動議了"},{"start":25356.41,"end":25358.41,"text":"假設要散會的話"},{"start":25358.41,"end":25360.41,"text":"那行政機關什麼時候"},{"start":25360.41,"end":25362.41,"text":"可以跟"},{"start":25362.05,"end":25364.19,"text":"各縣市政府討論好"},{"start":25365.03,"end":25367.03,"text":"討論好一個比較明確的共識"},{"start":25367.03,"end":25369.03,"text":"再來討論"},{"start":25369.53,"end":25371.53,"text":"把這個講清楚大家比較好做決定啦"},{"start":25371.53,"end":25373.53,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":25375.12,"end":25377.12,"text":"我們下一位"},{"start":25377.12,"end":25379.12,"text":"好劉書斌委員請等一下"},{"start":25379.12,"end":25381.12,"text":"那個"},{"start":25381.12,"end":25383.12,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":25383.12,"end":25385.12,"text":"對不起"},{"start":25385.12,"end":25387.12,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":25387.12,"end":25389.12,"text":"其實我們剛剛回憶到上一次討論是11月"},{"start":25389.12,"end":25391.12,"text":"那剛剛劉書斌委員有講了一個"},{"start":25391.12,"end":25393.12,"text":"時間點我覺得那個時間點"},{"start":25393.12,"end":25395.12,"text":"現在看起來我覺得很重要"},{"start":25395.12,"end":25397.12,"text":"就是從1月份開始由"},{"start":25397.12,"end":25399.12,"text":"某一個縣市開始宣布一樣午餐免費"},{"start":25399.12,"end":25401.12,"text":"之後我認為到目前"},{"start":25401.12,"end":25403.12,"text":"為止其實國教署也好或是"},{"start":25403.26,"end":25405.26,"text":"各自要面對的其實不是只有食材"},{"start":25405.26,"end":25407.26,"text":"健不健康"},{"start":25407.26,"end":25409.26,"text":"也不是只有食農教育"},{"start":25409.26,"end":25411.26,"text":"營養教育要不要做"},{"start":25411.26,"end":25413.26,"text":"因為這個試設的成本很少"},{"start":25413.26,"end":25415.26,"text":"成本大部分來自哪裡"},{"start":25415.26,"end":25417.26,"text":"來自於所有的營養午餐食材"},{"start":25417.26,"end":25419.26,"text":"還有所有的人力"},{"start":25419.26,"end":25421.26,"text":"那目前為止據我所知喔"},{"start":25421.26,"end":25423.26,"text":"就我們辦公室一直在跟相關的"},{"start":25423.26,"end":25425.26,"text":"老師們家長團體們討論"},{"start":25425.26,"end":25427.26,"text":"其實最大的困境是"},{"start":25426.75,"end":25428.75,"text":"以台北市我的孩子所在台北市為例"},{"start":25428.75,"end":25430.75,"text":"現在如果台北市綁定了"},{"start":25430.75,"end":25432.75,"text":"是75塊或是73塊90塊都好"},{"start":25432.75,"end":25434.75,"text":"但是如果個別的"},{"start":25434.75,"end":25436.75,"text":"學校家長會對於這個費用"},{"start":25436.75,"end":25438.75,"text":"或是對於相關的做法"},{"start":25438.75,"end":25440.75,"text":"是有疑義的過去在個別學校"},{"start":25440.75,"end":25442.75,"text":"招標各自學校可以決定的情況下"},{"start":25442.75,"end":25444.75,"text":"其實家長會"},{"start":25444.75,"end":25446.75,"text":"還有學生的權利跟聲音"},{"start":25446.75,"end":25448.75,"text":"是很清晰的但是現在"},{"start":25448.75,"end":25450.75,"text":"一旦變成所有的地方縣市政府"},{"start":25450.75,"end":25452.75,"text":"都是所謂大甲方的時候"},{"start":25452.75,"end":25454.75,"text":"其實我認為很多的問題根本"},{"start":25454.89,"end":25456.89,"text":"都還沒有討論清楚包含我剛剛說"},{"start":25456.89,"end":25458.89,"text":"那個費用的拆分"},{"start":25458.89,"end":25460.89,"text":"那那個費用光是國產食材"},{"start":25460.89,"end":25462.89,"text":"三張EQ這件事情"},{"start":25462.89,"end":25464.89,"text":"我相信都還有很多事情要討論喔"},{"start":25464.89,"end":25466.89,"text":"甚至之前我們還有發現"},{"start":25466.89,"end":25468.89,"text":"有的縣市食材登錄平台是不是也沒有要再用了"},{"start":25468.89,"end":25470.89,"text":"甚至有些縣市開始把某一些食材"},{"start":25470.89,"end":25472.89,"text":"給拿掉了國產食材拿掉"},{"start":25472.89,"end":25474.89,"text":"其實這都是所有今天在場"},{"start":25474.89,"end":25476.89,"text":"會參與營養午餐的委員所擔心的"},{"start":25476.89,"end":25478.89,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":25478.89,"end":25480.89,"text":"如同剛剛有委員建議的"},{"start":25480.89,"end":25482.89,"text":"是不是讓國教署這邊先花一些時間"},{"start":25483.03,"end":25485.03,"text":"說明從各縣市宣布免費營養午餐"},{"start":25485.03,"end":25487.03,"text":"到目前為止喔"},{"start":25487.03,"end":25489.03,"text":"這四五個月期間"},{"start":25489.03,"end":25491.03,"text":"各個縣市政府現在到底收集回來狀況有哪些"},{"start":25491.03,"end":25493.03,"text":"那還需要地方政府"},{"start":25493.03,"end":25495.03,"text":"跟中央政府討論的爭議"},{"start":25495.03,"end":25497.03,"text":"還有哪些還有我們剛剛說的"},{"start":25497.03,"end":25499.03,"text":"不論是食材登錄平台或是三張EQ"},{"start":25499.03,"end":25501.03,"text":"或是儲公的人力、營養師的人力"},{"start":25501.03,"end":25503.03,"text":"或是食農教育後續的分工"},{"start":25503.03,"end":25505.03,"text":"因為我要請大家注意喔"},{"start":25505.03,"end":25507.03,"text":"當時在喊營養午餐"},{"start":25507.03,"end":25509.03,"text":"修法的時候其實沒有那麼多"},{"start":25509.03,"end":25511.03,"text":"縣市是用"},{"start":25511.17,"end":25513.17,"text":"所謂免費的方法"},{"start":25513.17,"end":25515.17,"text":"所以每一個家長所繳的錢"},{"start":25515.17,"end":25517.17,"text":"在學校來說它叫做代辦費"},{"start":25517.17,"end":25519.17,"text":"但是未來"},{"start":25519.17,"end":25521.17,"text":"代辦費這三個字不可能再出現囉"},{"start":25521.17,"end":25523.17,"text":"因為所謂大的甲方就叫做各縣市政府"},{"start":25523.17,"end":25525.17,"text":"所以如果我們現在沒有搞清楚"},{"start":25525.17,"end":25527.17,"text":"各縣市政府跟中央"},{"start":25527.17,"end":25529.17,"text":"教育部這邊合作狀況"},{"start":25529.17,"end":25531.17,"text":"或是還有期益的狀況還有分歧的狀況"},{"start":25531.17,"end":25533.17,"text":"我覺得我們一條一條"},{"start":25533.17,"end":25535.17,"text":"審下去會非常的荒謬、可笑"},{"start":25535.17,"end":25537.17,"text":"因為所有地方政府"},{"start":25537.17,"end":25539.17,"text":"他們今天不可能有時間"},{"start":25539.309999999998,"end":25541.309999999998,"text":"在線上聽直播"},{"start":25541.309999999998,"end":25543.309999999998,"text":"但是如果我們立法院硬要通過的東西"},{"start":25543.309999999998,"end":25545.309999999998,"text":"到後來是各地方縣市政府"},{"start":25545.309999999998,"end":25547.309999999998,"text":"沒有辦法承擔、沒有辦法"},{"start":25547.309999999998,"end":25549.309999999998,"text":"負荷的可能是人力、可能是資源"},{"start":25549.309999999998,"end":25551.309999999998,"text":"可能是財力"},{"start":25551.309999999998,"end":25553.309999999998,"text":"那該怎麼辦?而且不要忘記了"},{"start":25553.309999999998,"end":25555.309999999998,"text":"當各個縣市都是用免費的方法"},{"start":25555.309999999998,"end":25557.309999999998,"text":"在照顧孩子們的營養午餐的時候"},{"start":25557.309999999998,"end":25559.309999999998,"text":"還有地區的差異"},{"start":25559.309999999998,"end":25561.309999999998,"text":"天箱的差異而這些該怎麼辦?"},{"start":25561.309999999998,"end":25563.309999999998,"text":"前一輪在蘇院長的時代"},{"start":25563.309999999998,"end":25565.309999999998,"text":"好不容易用各個地方的"},{"start":25565.309999999998,"end":25567.309999999998,"text":"營養午餐的廚房解決了"},{"start":25567.45,"end":25569.45,"text":"好像吃得比較不好的狀況"},{"start":25569.45,"end":25571.45,"text":"好不容易我們的國產食材"},{"start":25571.45,"end":25573.45,"text":"也都99%進入孩子們的營養午餐"},{"start":25573.45,"end":25575.45,"text":"而那個時候的狀況"},{"start":25575.45,"end":25577.45,"text":"跟現在截然的不同"},{"start":25577.73,"end":25579.73,"text":"我想在進行主調之前"},{"start":25579.73,"end":25581.73,"text":"還是要拜託主席是不是就給教育部"},{"start":25581.73,"end":25583.73,"text":"國教署多一些時間來說明"},{"start":25583.73,"end":25585.73,"text":"現在所收集到的一些狀況"},{"start":25585.73,"end":25587.73,"text":"好,以上,謝謝"},{"start":25588.92,"end":25589.559999999998,"text":"好"},{"start":25590.4,"end":25593.04,"text":"不好意思,他剛剛有先舉手"},{"start":25594.66,"end":25596.8,"text":"你第二輪了嗎?"},{"start":25597.02,"end":25597.66,"text":"對"},{"start":25598.71,"end":25599.35,"text":"國衛生委"},{"start":25600.48,"end":25602.48,"text":"我相信大家都非常重視"},{"start":25602.48,"end":25604.48,"text":"這個學校營養午餐的問題"},{"start":25604.48,"end":25606.48,"text":"那我們當然也希望"},{"start":25606.48,"end":25608.48,"text":"能夠建立全國一致的"},{"start":25608.48,"end":25610.48,"text":"一個公餐的體系"},{"start":25610.48,"end":25612.48,"text":"來保障孩子們在學校"},{"start":25612.48,"end":25614.48,"text":"營養午餐攝取的時候的"},{"start":25614.48,"end":25616.48,"text":"健康跟安全"},{"start":25616.48,"end":25618.48,"text":"不過大家都知道從台北市宣布"},{"start":25618.48,"end":25620.48,"text":"營養午餐免費之後"},{"start":25620.48,"end":25622.48,"text":"各個縣市的福利競賽"},{"start":25622.48,"end":25624.48,"text":"就展開了"},{"start":25624.48,"end":25626.48,"text":"包含現在其實總共"},{"start":25626.48,"end":25628.48,"text":"又有12個縣市其實"},{"start":25629.12,"end":25631.12,"text":"他們也就是推動這個"},{"start":25631.12,"end":25633.12,"text":"免費的營養午餐的這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":25633.12,"end":25635.12,"text":"可是"},{"start":25635.12,"end":25637.12,"text":"我想這個當然是一個"},{"start":25637.12,"end":25639.12,"text":"美意然後減輕這個家長們"},{"start":25639.12,"end":25641.12,"text":"的一個負擔不過中央跟地方"},{"start":25641.12,"end":25643.12,"text":"之間的一個溝通"},{"start":25643.12,"end":25645.12,"text":"到底到什麼樣的一個程度"},{"start":25645.12,"end":25647.12,"text":"那大家都會說這個免費"},{"start":25647.12,"end":25649.12,"text":"的最貴那我們當然也"},{"start":25649.12,"end":25651.12,"text":"擔心這個免費的午餐"},{"start":25651.12,"end":25653.12,"text":"可能衍生之後的一些問題"},{"start":25653.12,"end":25655.12,"text":"像近期大家都知道像台中"},{"start":25655.12,"end":25657.12,"text":"就發生了30個學生要平均"},{"start":25657.76,"end":25659.76,"text":"分9顆貢丸"},{"start":25659.76,"end":25661.76,"text":"那還要抽籤才能決定誰能吃"},{"start":25661.76,"end":25663.76,"text":"那這個公平性的一個問題"},{"start":25663.76,"end":25665.76,"text":"那台北市的國中"},{"start":25665.76,"end":25667.76,"text":"他們可能一餐是"},{"start":25667.76,"end":25669.76,"text":"75塊錢那其他的縣市也許是"},{"start":25669.76,"end":25671.76,"text":"50等等"},{"start":25671.76,"end":25673.76,"text":"這個不一樣的一個標準"},{"start":25673.76,"end":25675.76,"text":"那會不會有公平性的問題還有"},{"start":25675.76,"end":25677.76,"text":"所謂的這個剩食的一個黑洞"},{"start":25677.76,"end":25679.76,"text":"還有人力分配的一個失衡的一個狀況"},{"start":25679.76,"end":25681.76,"text":"我想這個中央有沒有來做"},{"start":25681.76,"end":25683.76,"text":"跟地方上的一個盤點"},{"start":25683.76,"end":25685.76,"text":"跟追蹤那到"},{"start":25686.399999999998,"end":25688.399999999998,"text":"目前為止其實我們可能還是"},{"start":25688.399999999998,"end":25690.399999999998,"text":"需要再跟更多的這個地方"},{"start":25690.399999999998,"end":25692.399999999998,"text":"來做溝通那才"},{"start":25692.399999999998,"end":25694.399999999998,"text":"劃法之前跟才劃法之後"},{"start":25694.399999999998,"end":25696.399999999998,"text":"其實像這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":25696.399999999998,"end":25698.399999999998,"text":"地方的這個事權到底分配"},{"start":25698.399999999998,"end":25700.399999999998,"text":"的部分就是"},{"start":25700.399999999998,"end":25702.399999999998,"text":"錢拿走了但是問題是他們的"},{"start":25702.399999999998,"end":25704.399999999998,"text":"這個事權的部分有沒有一起來分擔"},{"start":25704.399999999998,"end":25706.399999999998,"text":"那我想這個部分其實也是"},{"start":25706.399999999998,"end":25708.399999999998,"text":"我們會有一些"},{"start":25708.399999999998,"end":25710.399999999998,"text":"考量那如果在這些問題"},{"start":25710.399999999998,"end":25712.399999999998,"text":"都還沒有特別的"},{"start":25712.399999999998,"end":25714.399999999998,"text":"一些最新的一個追蹤的"},{"start":25715.04,"end":25717.04,"text":"如果今天要進入這樣的一個主條"},{"start":25717.04,"end":25719.04,"text":"我相信應該又會像剛剛"},{"start":25719.04,"end":25721.04,"text":"其實我們那個學貸算法一樣"},{"start":25721.04,"end":25723.04,"text":"即使大家的方向一致但最後還是"},{"start":25723.04,"end":25725.04,"text":"又是保留"},{"start":25725.04,"end":25727.04,"text":"那我覺得這個時間上的一個"},{"start":25727.04,"end":25729.04,"text":"意義可能真的就比較"},{"start":25729.04,"end":25731.04,"text":"比較沒有這樣子的"},{"start":25731.04,"end":25733.04,"text":"一個共識啦 以上"},{"start":25740.12,"end":25742.12,"text":"郭 吳市長委員"},{"start":25742.12,"end":25744.12,"text":"我想我們這個程序的動力"},{"start":25744.12,"end":25746.12,"text":"也是要優先處理啦"},{"start":25746.12,"end":25748.12,"text":"但我們還是要說明清楚"},{"start":25748.12,"end":25750.12,"text":"也比較不好意思"},{"start":25750.12,"end":25752.12,"text":"因為我在場可能是"},{"start":25752.12,"end":25754.12,"text":"比較資深一點點就是因為"},{"start":25754.12,"end":25756.12,"text":"介事比較多其實我是"},{"start":25756.12,"end":25758.12,"text":"立法院第一個提一案五三專法的立委"},{"start":25760.27,"end":25762.27,"text":"但是這兩屆以來"},{"start":25762.27,"end":25764.27,"text":"有很多新生的狀態"},{"start":25764.47,"end":25767.11,"text":"第一個就是才幻法的修正"},{"start":25768.2,"end":25770.2,"text":"中央跟地方的裁員"},{"start":25770.2,"end":25772.2,"text":"有一個翻天覆地的改變"},{"start":25772.2,"end":25774.2,"text":"所以中央原本來補助地方"},{"start":25774.2,"end":25776.2,"text":"不管三張EQ"},{"start":25776.2,"end":25778.2,"text":"不管是偏鄉不管是弱勢孩童"},{"start":25778.2,"end":25780.2,"text":"每年撥補的74億"},{"start":25780.2,"end":25782.2,"text":"現在的狀況嬰兒才華法"},{"start":25782.2,"end":25784.2,"text":"就改變了"},{"start":25784.43,"end":25786.43,"text":"移給地方之後"},{"start":25786.43,"end":25788.43,"text":"現在22個縣市從才華法前後"},{"start":25788.43,"end":25790.43,"text":"修才華法前有10個縣市"},{"start":25790.43,"end":25792.43,"text":"自行地方買單"},{"start":25792.43,"end":25794.43,"text":"全額地方補貼"},{"start":25794.43,"end":25796.43,"text":"到修才華法後又有12個縣市加入"},{"start":25796.43,"end":25798.43,"text":"所以整個"},{"start":25798.43,"end":25800.43,"text":"財政的狀況跟現在"},{"start":25800.43,"end":25802.43,"text":"學校營養午餐現場的"},{"start":25802.43,"end":25804.43,"text":"執行狀況也不同"},{"start":25805.27,"end":25807.27,"text":"另外還有一件事情"},{"start":25807.27,"end":25809.27,"text":"當然也是"},{"start":25809.27,"end":25811.27,"text":"營養午餐大家我們"},{"start":25811.27,"end":25813.27,"text":"不斷的跟地方在地的團體"},{"start":25813.27,"end":25815.27,"text":"溝通對話之後"},{"start":25815.27,"end":25817.27,"text":"大家有一些新生的事項"},{"start":25817.27,"end":25819.27,"text":"認為還需要再"},{"start":25819.27,"end":25821.27,"text":"精進跟研議"},{"start":25821.27,"end":25823.27,"text":"教育部原本我們都期待教育部要有布辦"},{"start":25824.559999999998,"end":25826.559999999998,"text":"這是重要的一個法案"},{"start":25826.559999999998,"end":25828.559999999998,"text":"朝野都很重視"},{"start":25828.559999999998,"end":25830.559999999998,"text":"那我所知道教育部的布辦也修了六次七次"},{"start":25830.559999999998,"end":25832.559999999998,"text":"只是真的因為才華法上路之後"},{"start":25832.559999999998,"end":25834.559999999998,"text":"而又"},{"start":25834.559999999998,"end":25836.559999999998,"text":"stop了"},{"start":25836.559999999998,"end":25838.559999999998,"text":"所以這件事情需要中央跟地方"},{"start":25838.559999999998,"end":25840.559999999998,"text":"好好再溝通好"},{"start":25840.559999999998,"end":25842.559999999998,"text":"所以我們立法委員"},{"start":25842.559999999998,"end":25844.559999999998,"text":"我們修法不能夠"},{"start":25844.559999999998,"end":25846.559999999998,"text":"自外於中央的"},{"start":25846.559999999998,"end":25848.559999999998,"text":"財政跟地方的執行"},{"start":25848.559999999998,"end":25850.559999999998,"text":"現場的狀況我們不能無視"},{"start":25850.559999999998,"end":25852.559999999998,"text":"所以說為了法案好"},{"start":25853.2,"end":25855.2,"text":"討論也要有品質"},{"start":25855.2,"end":25857.2,"text":"討論也希望能夠聚焦"},{"start":25857.2,"end":25859.2,"text":"那顯然就前面的會期討論"},{"start":25859.2,"end":25861.2,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25863.62,"end":25865.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25865.62,"end":25867.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25867.62,"end":25869.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25869.62,"end":25871.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25871.62,"end":25873.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25873.62,"end":25875.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25875.62,"end":25877.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25877.62,"end":25879.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25879.62,"end":25881.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25881.62,"end":25883.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25883.62,"end":25885.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25885.62,"end":25887.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25887.62,"end":25889.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25889.62,"end":25891.62,"text":"光明稱"},{"start":25877.18,"end":25879.82,"text":"如果沒有國家的預算我們怎麼有支應地方"},{"start":25882.15,"end":25884.79,"text":"營養午餐的費用呢"},{"start":25885.11,"end":25887.11,"text":"所以還是我們的修正動議是真的也覺得"},{"start":25887.11,"end":25889.11,"text":"不對不起"},{"start":25889.11,"end":25891.11,"text":"我們的那個程序上的動議"},{"start":25891.11,"end":25893.11,"text":"請主席能夠來處理"},{"start":25893.11,"end":25895.11,"text":"我們都希望讓法案有品質的討論"},{"start":25895.11,"end":25897.11,"text":"然後審預算還是我們"},{"start":25897.11,"end":25899.11,"text":"眼前最重要的事"},{"start":25899.11,"end":25901.11,"text":"這是上會期就要交的作業"},{"start":25901.11,"end":25903.11,"text":"我們這會期要趕快來趕進度"},{"start":25903.11,"end":25905.11,"text":"我想大家都有共識"},{"start":25905.78,"end":25907.78,"text":"補充報告一下還是跟委員說明"},{"start":25907.78,"end":25909.78,"text":"我們下個禮拜就要審預算"},{"start":25909.78,"end":25911.78,"text":"所以現階段"},{"start":25911.78,"end":25913.78,"text":"已經在排的議程我希望大家就尊重"},{"start":25913.78,"end":25915.78,"text":"我尊重你說要審預算"},{"start":25915.78,"end":25917.78,"text":"我下禮拜就會排"},{"start":25917.78,"end":25919.78,"text":"可是我現階段"},{"start":25919.78,"end":25921.78,"text":"不讓我討論說要審預算"},{"start":25921.78,"end":25923.78,"text":"那我們現在是不是待會再提一個臨時動議"},{"start":25926.22,"end":25928.86,"text":"我們這個休息"},{"start":25930.1,"end":25932.1,"text":"我們現在馬上審預算"},{"start":25932.1,"end":25934.1,"text":"也做不出來阿"},{"start":25934.1,"end":25936.1,"text":"醫事人員就是等下個禮拜嘛"},{"start":25936.1,"end":25938.1,"text":"所以我要拜託大家現在是排"},{"start":25938.1,"end":25940.1,"text":"營養午餐就聚焦在營養午餐好不好"},{"start":25943.71,"end":25945.71,"text":"我有我的排法嘛"},{"start":25945.71,"end":25947.71,"text":"所以你們又要再講那我又要提到武麗華委員"},{"start":25947.71,"end":25949.71,"text":"你有沒有好奇這三周"},{"start":25949.71,"end":25951.71,"text":"都是我來當召委為什麼"},{"start":25951.71,"end":25953.71,"text":"因為講好換好時間嘛"},{"start":25953.71,"end":25955.71,"text":"那你們換了你們先審"},{"start":25955.71,"end":25957.71,"text":"然後我換到後面我再來審"},{"start":25957.71,"end":25959.71,"text":"結果講好了然後結果我排到後面突然又說"},{"start":25959.71,"end":25961.71,"text":"你不審預算我跟你換時間欸"},{"start":25965.45,"end":25967.45,"text":"這一周排有一些"},{"start":25967.45,"end":25969.45,"text":"他們說要因意思路"},{"start":25969.45,"end":25971.45,"text":"叫我等一下"},{"start":25971.45,"end":25973.45,"text":"不要這樣子啦就真的有要排嘛"},{"start":25976.239999999998,"end":25978.239999999998,"text":"我就覺得說我連跟你換個時間"},{"start":25978.239999999998,"end":25980.239999999998,"text":"結果你後面都要搞我"},{"start":25980.239999999998,"end":25982.239999999998,"text":"說哎呀你都不排預算"},{"start":25982.239999999998,"end":25984.239999999998,"text":"結果我前三周讓你當召委後三周我當召委"},{"start":25984.239999999998,"end":25986.239999999998,"text":"我後三周在處理嘛"},{"start":25986.239999999998,"end":25988.239999999998,"text":"拜託啦齁"},{"start":25990.45,"end":25993.09,"text":"那個陳秀寶委員"},{"start":25995.27,"end":25997.27,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":25997.27,"end":25999.27,"text":"其實我原本都非常的關心"},{"start":25999.27,"end":26001.27,"text":"我們的孩子在學校一樣"},{"start":26001.27,"end":26003.27,"text":"午餐的問題我自己本身也有提我的版本"},{"start":26003.27,"end":26005.27,"text":"但是剛才有委員"},{"start":26005.27,"end":26007.27,"text":"在問教育部說"},{"start":26007.27,"end":26009.27,"text":"好啊那你跟地方溝通你什麼時候可以溝通好"},{"start":26009.27,"end":26011.27,"text":"其實跟地方溝通不管是經費"},{"start":26011.27,"end":26013.27,"text":"還是事權這個分攤不是"},{"start":26014.46,"end":26016.46,"text":"教育部很認真去溝通地方就一定給"},{"start":26016.46,"end":26018.46,"text":"結論一定給回應"},{"start":26018.46,"end":26020.46,"text":"今天他去跟"},{"start":26020.46,"end":26022.46,"text":"縣市政府的教育處教育局說"},{"start":26022.46,"end":26024.46,"text":"那教育處教育局還是兩手一攤說"},{"start":26024.46,"end":26026.46,"text":"我可能沒辦法"},{"start":26026.46,"end":26028.46,"text":"那就停頓了你必須再找時間再去"},{"start":26028.46,"end":26030.46,"text":"講一次這不是教育部"},{"start":26030.46,"end":26032.46,"text":"覺得說我今天來跟你談就一定有"},{"start":26032.46,"end":26034.46,"text":"結果可以帶回來所以你要告訴"},{"start":26034.46,"end":26036.46,"text":"你要教育部講出來說"},{"start":26036.46,"end":26038.46,"text":"你什麼時候可以溝通完成你什麼時候可以"},{"start":26038.46,"end":26040.46,"text":"跟各縣市政府的教育處教育局講好"},{"start":26040.46,"end":26042.46,"text":"這個不是教育部"},{"start":26043.1,"end":26045.1,"text":"所以教育部是沒有辦法去掌握到這個進度"},{"start":26045.1,"end":26047.1,"text":"所以他們很努力的在做這個部分的"},{"start":26047.1,"end":26049.1,"text":"協商很努力的在做這個討論"},{"start":26049.1,"end":26051.1,"text":"但是只要縣市政府他們"},{"start":26051.1,"end":26053.1,"text":"沒有給出他們"},{"start":26053.1,"end":26055.1,"text":"要做的整個章程"},{"start":26055.1,"end":26057.1,"text":"沒有給出他們要做的整個分攤的承諾的話"},{"start":26057.1,"end":26059.1,"text":"那其實教育部是沒有"},{"start":26059.1,"end":26061.1,"text":"辦法得到這個樣子結論的"},{"start":26061.1,"end":26063.1,"text":"所以其實雖然"},{"start":26063.1,"end":26065.1,"text":"我們在這個彩化法之前"},{"start":26065.1,"end":26067.1,"text":"已經有十個縣市包括我自己的彰化縣"},{"start":26067.1,"end":26069.1,"text":"就是已經免費的提供一樣午餐了"},{"start":26069.1,"end":26071.1,"text":"那在彩化法之後呢"},{"start":26071.739999999998,"end":26073.739999999998,"text":"很多縣市也覺得說他們是有把握"},{"start":26073.739999999998,"end":26075.739999999998,"text":"就是可以來這樣子處理之後"},{"start":26075.739999999998,"end":26077.739999999998,"text":"他們也都陸續的宣布說他們的"},{"start":26077.739999999998,"end":26079.739999999998,"text":"營養午餐的政策就是可以"},{"start":26079.739999999998,"end":26081.739999999998,"text":"每份提供給孩童"},{"start":26081.739999999998,"end":26083.739999999998,"text":"那這樣子的情況之下"},{"start":26083.739999999998,"end":26085.739999999998,"text":"到底這相關的事權"},{"start":26085.739999999998,"end":26087.739999999998,"text":"到底相關的這個怎麼處理"},{"start":26087.739999999998,"end":26089.739999999998,"text":"怎麼大家去分攤比例其實"},{"start":26089.739999999998,"end":26091.739999999998,"text":"其實政府我想還沒有"},{"start":26093.3,"end":26095.3,"text":"很明確的給出他們"},{"start":26095.3,"end":26097.3,"text":"教育部這邊可以"},{"start":26097.3,"end":26099.3,"text":"覺得說是很有把握的"},{"start":26099.3,"end":26101.3,"text":"這樣子的回應的時候"},{"start":26101.3,"end":26103.3,"text":"其實我們在這個時候來審我們來"},{"start":26103.3,"end":26105.3,"text":"去討論說我們在法規裡面"},{"start":26105.3,"end":26107.3,"text":"法條裡面所規範的"},{"start":26107.3,"end":26109.3,"text":"每一個部分其實也很難"},{"start":26109.3,"end":26111.3,"text":"有一個很正確的"},{"start":26111.3,"end":26113.3,"text":"一個這個定論那"},{"start":26113.3,"end":26115.3,"text":"尤其剛才我們在"},{"start":26115.3,"end":26117.3,"text":"審我們學代的"},{"start":26117.3,"end":26119.3,"text":"這個部分的話其實"},{"start":26119.3,"end":26121.3,"text":"這麼有共識的情況之下"},{"start":26121.94,"end":26123.94,"text":"還是要送保留那我想我們今天"},{"start":26123.94,"end":26125.94,"text":"針對我們的營養午餐我們的學校午餐"},{"start":26125.94,"end":26127.94,"text":"在在討論的"},{"start":26127.94,"end":26129.94,"text":"過程裡面是不是也可能就是"},{"start":26129.94,"end":26131.94,"text":"即便是非常的相近"},{"start":26131.94,"end":26133.94,"text":"已經大家覺得說是同樣的方向了"},{"start":26133.94,"end":26135.94,"text":"但是也可能因為是文字上"},{"start":26135.94,"end":26137.94,"text":"還是大家的想法上"},{"start":26137.94,"end":26139.94,"text":"有一點出入然後又把它送保留"},{"start":26139.94,"end":26141.94,"text":"就這樣子的效率"},{"start":26141.94,"end":26143.94,"text":"我覺得也不是很"},{"start":26143.94,"end":26145.94,"text":"在這個整個"},{"start":26145.94,"end":26147.94,"text":"法條的討論上是有進度可言"},{"start":26147.94,"end":26149.94,"text":"所以這邊我也不應我們"},{"start":26150.579999999998,"end":26152.579999999998,"text":"思想委員提的這個散會動議如果是大家"},{"start":26152.579999999998,"end":26154.579999999998,"text":"沒有"},{"start":26154.6,"end":26156.6,"text":"哲奇在審對不起"},{"start":26156.6,"end":26158.6,"text":"哲奇在審因為如果說"},{"start":26158.6,"end":26160.6,"text":"沒有在這個方面"},{"start":26161.19,"end":26163.19,"text":"很明確共識我們可能就是跟像剛剛一樣"},{"start":26163.19,"end":26165.19,"text":"雖然大家的方向很接近了"},{"start":26165.19,"end":26167.19,"text":"大家的意思已經很接近了"},{"start":26167.19,"end":26169.19,"text":"但是"},{"start":26169.91,"end":26171.91,"text":"還是保留"},{"start":26171.91,"end":26173.91,"text":"那既然一直要送保留每一條都保留"},{"start":26173.91,"end":26175.91,"text":"永遠都在原地"},{"start":26175.91,"end":26177.91,"text":"其實也不會有進展的"},{"start":26177.91,"end":26179.91,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26179.91,"end":26181.91,"text":"謝謝委員都還沒有討論就說一定會保留"},{"start":26181.91,"end":26183.91,"text":"我們也試試看嘛"},{"start":26183.91,"end":26185.91,"text":"我們最後"},{"start":26185.5,"end":26187.5,"text":"法不一樣嘛大家討論看看嘛"},{"start":26187.5,"end":26189.5,"text":"今天我連一條都還沒進去"},{"start":26189.5,"end":26191.5,"text":"討論的時候你馬上就說"},{"start":26191.5,"end":26193.5,"text":"一定會保留"},{"start":26193.5,"end":26195.5,"text":"這個我覺得太強人所難"},{"start":26195.5,"end":26197.5,"text":"那最後我來宣告啦"},{"start":26197.5,"end":26199.5,"text":"劉淑冰委員羅志強委員"},{"start":26199.5,"end":26201.5,"text":"羅庭薇委員發言完畢"},{"start":26201.5,"end":26203.5,"text":"以後我們就處理動議"},{"start":26203.5,"end":26205.5,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":26205.87,"end":26207.87,"text":"謝謝主席我剛才在第一回合"},{"start":26207.87,"end":26209.87,"text":"發言的時候已經有提到"},{"start":26209.87,"end":26211.87,"text":"現在22個縣市都"},{"start":26211.87,"end":26213.87,"text":"已經說營養午餐要免費了"},{"start":26213.87,"end":26215.87,"text":"那但是對於有一個非常"},{"start":26215.87,"end":26217.87,"text":"大的兩個重要的"},{"start":26217.87,"end":26219.87,"text":"時間壓力是在於"},{"start":26219.87,"end":26221.87,"text":"下一個學年度"},{"start":26221.87,"end":26223.87,"text":"真正開學在9月可是真的學年度"},{"start":26223.87,"end":26225.87,"text":"開始是從8月1號開始"},{"start":26225.87,"end":26227.87,"text":"8個月要開始到距離現在"},{"start":26227.87,"end":26229.87,"text":"就是不到2個月時間"},{"start":26229.87,"end":26231.87,"text":"那2個月時間"},{"start":26231.87,"end":26233.87,"text":"就有那個必要性在"},{"start":26234.51,"end":26236.51,"text":"要趕快就新的學年度開始的時候"},{"start":26236.51,"end":26238.51,"text":"應該就"},{"start":26239.13,"end":26241.13,"text":"有一些全國一致性的"},{"start":26241.13,"end":26243.13,"text":"內容包括的是飲食教育"},{"start":26243.13,"end":26245.13,"text":"要怎麼要怎麼在進行"},{"start":26245.13,"end":26247.13,"text":"還包括的是對人力的"},{"start":26247.13,"end":26249.13,"text":"部分"},{"start":26249.13,"end":26251.13,"text":"廚工營養師舞弊"},{"start":26251.94,"end":26253.94,"text":"怎麼樣的去有一定的架構"},{"start":26253.94,"end":26255.94,"text":"怎麼樣的規範這也是要進行"},{"start":26255.94,"end":26257.94,"text":"好那第二個部分"},{"start":26257.94,"end":26259.94,"text":"有個時間壓力在於說現在"},{"start":26259.94,"end":26261.94,"text":"已經進到6月了我們在"},{"start":26263.28,"end":26265.92,"text":"就要編定116年度的"},{"start":26268.239999999998,"end":26270.239999999998,"text":"預算了所以"},{"start":26270.239999999998,"end":26272.239999999998,"text":"這部分也是因為才化法已經"},{"start":26272.239999999998,"end":26274.239999999998,"text":"確定了的確地方的"},{"start":26274.239999999998,"end":26276.239999999998,"text":"政府他的裁員是多了但是"},{"start":26276.239999999998,"end":26278.239999999998,"text":"在於有些部分在於"},{"start":26279.41,"end":26282.05,"text":"偏鄉的低收入戶的"},{"start":26282.899999999998,"end":26284.899999999998,"text":"這些需要過去在"},{"start":26284.899999999998,"end":26286.899999999998,"text":"由中央在補助的"},{"start":26286.899999999998,"end":26288.899999999998,"text":"可是這些部分是不是因為"},{"start":26288.899999999998,"end":26290.899999999998,"text":"地方政府的裁員政策"},{"start":26290.899999999998,"end":26292.899999999998,"text":"他是有沒有cover到這些部分"},{"start":26292.899999999998,"end":26294.899999999998,"text":"並沒有做相關的規定"},{"start":26294.899999999998,"end":26296.899999999998,"text":"所以這邊我還是覺得"},{"start":26296.899999999998,"end":26298.899999999998,"text":"等一下如果有什麼樣的一個上會動議之前"},{"start":26298.899999999998,"end":26300.899999999998,"text":"可能還是要請"},{"start":26300.899999999998,"end":26302.899999999998,"text":"國教署國前署這邊"},{"start":26302.899999999998,"end":26304.899999999998,"text":"應該針對從去年"},{"start":26304.899999999998,"end":26306.899999999998,"text":"年底或是從今年年初到"},{"start":26306.899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5個月以來的"},{"start":26308.899999999998,"end":26310.899999999998,"text":"對跟地方政府他們"},{"start":26311.54,"end":26313.54,"text":"協商的過程絕對沒有"},{"start":26313.54,"end":26315.54,"text":"可能是這通過的動靜啦"},{"start":26315.54,"end":26317.54,"text":"就是就他們現在已經了解到"},{"start":26317.54,"end":26319.54,"text":"已經溝通的部分要做一個先做一個"},{"start":26319.54,"end":26321.54,"text":"事實上面的一個了解"},{"start":26321.54,"end":26323.54,"text":"之後我們才知道下一部"},{"start":26323.54,"end":26325.54,"text":"甚至今天如果做一些什麼上會"},{"start":26325.54,"end":26327.54,"text":"動議或什麼之類的都要講說"},{"start":26327.54,"end":26329.54,"text":"那下一步要開會之前我剛才已經"},{"start":26329.54,"end":26331.54,"text":"提出來了兩個時間性就是"},{"start":26331.54,"end":26333.54,"text":"要編項年度總預算"},{"start":26333.54,"end":26335.54,"text":"第二部分是新的選項度就要開始"},{"start":26335.54,"end":26337.54,"text":"這兩個時間壓力是非常大的"},{"start":26337.54,"end":26339.54,"text":"就應該要對說"},{"start":26340.18,"end":26342.18,"text":"所以事實上我們在7月底之前"},{"start":26342.18,"end":26344.18,"text":"應該有對有些想法做法出現"},{"start":26344.18,"end":26346.18,"text":"那在這種情況下是不是"},{"start":26346.18,"end":26348.18,"text":"要請國前署這邊要針對說"},{"start":26348.18,"end":26350.18,"text":"下一次的有些方向的時候"},{"start":26350.18,"end":26352.18,"text":"是不是能夠在這次會議當中有一些"},{"start":26352.18,"end":26354.18,"text":"指引讓他們方向"},{"start":26354.18,"end":26356.18,"text":"委員會要做審議的時候"},{"start":26356.18,"end":26358.18,"text":"有更明確的進度"},{"start":26358.83,"end":26360.83,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":26364.94,"end":26366.94,"text":"在"},{"start":26366.94,"end":26368.94,"text":"羅志祥委員"},{"start":26374.35,"end":26376.35,"text":"不羈魁步無以自遷離"},{"start":26376.35,"end":26378.35,"text":"那當然每個法案的"},{"start":26378.35,"end":26380.35,"text":"討論都有他的"},{"start":26380.35,"end":26382.35,"text":"溝通的困難性"},{"start":26382.35,"end":26384.35,"text":"但法案的溝通跟審查"},{"start":26384.35,"end":26386.35,"text":"不就是一步一步"},{"start":26386.35,"end":26388.35,"text":"的慢慢的累積"},{"start":26388.35,"end":26390.35,"text":"然後最後達成目標嗎"},{"start":26390.35,"end":26392.35,"text":"就像今天我們的"},{"start":26392.35,"end":26394.35,"text":"營養午餐的專法"},{"start":26394.35,"end":26396.35,"text":"事實上上個會期"},{"start":26396.35,"end":26398.35,"text":"就已經有一些進展了"},{"start":26398.35,"end":26400.35,"text":"進展就是一個好的"},{"start":26400.35,"end":26402.35,"text":"開端那今天"},{"start":26402.35,"end":26404.35,"text":"我們就繼續讓他有進展"},{"start":26404.35,"end":26406.35,"text":"那慢慢的就會把它完成"},{"start":26406.35,"end":26408.35,"text":"那所以今天"},{"start":26408.35,"end":26410.35,"text":"既然我們的本來的"},{"start":26410.35,"end":26412.35,"text":"這個會議結束時間是五點半"},{"start":26412.35,"end":26414.35,"text":"你居然多討論一條兩條"},{"start":26414.35,"end":26416.35,"text":"都是往前走一步兩步啊"},{"start":26416.35,"end":26418.35,"text":"可是當然還是"},{"start":26418.35,"end":26420.35,"text":"我要強調啦"},{"start":26420.35,"end":26422.35,"text":"我當然是希望說能不能"},{"start":26422.35,"end":26424.35,"text":"這個三會動議"},{"start":26424.35,"end":26426.35,"text":"可以先收回去"},{"start":26426.35,"end":26428.35,"text":"讓我們能夠討論到五點半"},{"start":26428.35,"end":26430.35,"text":"那你們就是"},{"start":26430.35,"end":26432.35,"text":"其實不管是"},{"start":26432.35,"end":26434.35,"text":"你在擇期就是三會"},{"start":26434.35,"end":26436.35,"text":"在動議上就是三會啦"},{"start":26436.35,"end":26438.35,"text":"當然理由是一回事啦"},{"start":26438.35,"end":26440.35,"text":"一樣尊重還是先講尊重"},{"start":26440.35,"end":26442.35,"text":"可是當然就很可惜啊"},{"start":26442.35,"end":26444.35,"text":"我個人就是表達遺憾啦"},{"start":26444.35,"end":26446.35,"text":"營養午餐專法今天我們可以往前"},{"start":26446.35,"end":26448.35,"text":"再往前多走兩步"},{"start":26448.35,"end":26450.35,"text":"當然像之前會期"},{"start":26450.35,"end":26452.35,"text":"也就是討論兩條"},{"start":26452.35,"end":26454.35,"text":"那也就是進展兩條嘛"},{"start":26454.35,"end":26456.35,"text":"可見當然有困難嘛"},{"start":26456.35,"end":26458.35,"text":"可是如果說因為困難"},{"start":26458.35,"end":26460.35,"text":"我們就先把困難的先往前多走兩步呢"},{"start":26460.35,"end":26462.35,"text":"所以真的還是再呼籲啦"},{"start":26462.35,"end":26464.35,"text":"能不能再考慮一下"},{"start":26464.35,"end":26466.35,"text":"當然如果真的要處理這個"},{"start":26466.35,"end":26468.35,"text":"擇期今天三會"},{"start":26468.35,"end":26470.35,"text":"擇期再討論的動議"},{"start":26470.35,"end":26472.35,"text":"那我們也只能尊重啦"},{"start":26481.36,"end":26483.36,"text":"五招尾巴還是因為我剛剛有宣告耶"},{"start":26484.53,"end":26486.53,"text":"有宣告了"},{"start":26486.53,"end":26488.53,"text":"就是我講完就要處理動議了"},{"start":26488.88,"end":26490.88,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":26490.88,"end":26492.88,"text":"要不然您剪短好不好"},{"start":26492.88,"end":26494.88,"text":"不用剪短"},{"start":26494.88,"end":26496.88,"text":"沒關係就尊重"},{"start":26496.88,"end":26498.88,"text":"那不好意思我站著啦"},{"start":26498.88,"end":26500.88,"text":"坐比較久"},{"start":26500.64,"end":26502.64,"text":"還是希望啦"},{"start":26502.64,"end":26504.64,"text":"懇請我們執政黨委員能夠收回"},{"start":26504.64,"end":26506.64,"text":"我們的這一個動議啦"},{"start":26506.64,"end":26508.64,"text":"我們還是希望能夠"},{"start":26508.64,"end":26510.64,"text":"那我也是可以給我一點理由嗎"},{"start":26510.64,"end":26512.64,"text":"沒有列入公報沒有關係"},{"start":26513.08,"end":26515.08,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":26515.08,"end":26517.08,"text":"因為我有點不好意思啦"},{"start":26517.08,"end":26519.08,"text":"我其實早上的質詢"},{"start":26519.08,"end":26521.08,"text":"我有準備"},{"start":26521.08,"end":26523.08,"text":"這個營養午餐的內容"},{"start":26523.08,"end":26525.08,"text":"但是我刻意不講"},{"start":26525.08,"end":26527.08,"text":"我只講學代三法"},{"start":26527.08,"end":26529.08,"text":"下午來討論"},{"start":26529.08,"end":26531.08,"text":"我是真的很想討論我自己也蠻遺憾"},{"start":26531.08,"end":26533.08,"text":"但是真的時間因為"},{"start":26533.08,"end":26535.08,"text":"已經四點了"},{"start":26535.08,"end":26537.08,"text":"我很想參與"},{"start":26537.08,"end":26539.08,"text":"可是因為我自己也有來自花蓮"},{"start":26539.08,"end":26541.08,"text":"秀林鄉的鄉親"},{"start":26541.08,"end":26543.08,"text":"在紅樓201等我開會"},{"start":26543.08,"end":26545.08,"text":"所以我是希望說能不能"},{"start":26545.08,"end":26547.08,"text":"夠擇期"},{"start":26547.08,"end":26549.08,"text":"其實"},{"start":26549.08,"end":26551.08,"text":"因為我當召委啦"},{"start":26551.08,"end":26553.08,"text":"吳召委跟我其實我們有一些默契"},{"start":26553.08,"end":26555.08,"text":"我剛剛就講說"},{"start":26555.08,"end":26557.08,"text":"其實你交代我我也都盡力"},{"start":26557.08,"end":26559.08,"text":"達到嘛對不對"},{"start":26560.33,"end":26562.33,"text":"那我也是拜託委員啦"},{"start":26562.33,"end":26564.33,"text":"我是希望能夠繼續討論"},{"start":26564.33,"end":26566.33,"text":"但是我也願意為了你休息半個小時"},{"start":26566.33,"end":26568.33,"text":"你先去處理201的事情"},{"start":26568.33,"end":26570.33,"text":"因為201鄉親我知道他們有一些"},{"start":26570.33,"end":26572.33,"text":"需求啦"},{"start":26572.33,"end":26574.33,"text":"我們等你但是營養午餐真的很重要"},{"start":26574.33,"end":26576.33,"text":"今天修到12點我都願意陪大家"},{"start":26578.53,"end":26580.53,"text":"我馬上處理動議你就可以走了"},{"start":26580.53,"end":26582.53,"text":"但我真的是拜託說"},{"start":26582.53,"end":26584.53,"text":"執政黨的委員是不是抽"},{"start":26584.53,"end":26586.53,"text":"回動議讓我講完話"},{"start":26586.53,"end":26588.53,"text":"我們就要處理但真的拜託"},{"start":26588.53,"end":26590.53,"text":"一定要現階段"},{"start":26590.53,"end":26592.53,"text":"討論一條是一條"},{"start":26592.53,"end":26594.53,"text":"如果你跟我講說要再繼續"},{"start":26594.53,"end":26596.53,"text":"討論中央跟地方"},{"start":26596.53,"end":26598.53,"text":"討論多少次了"},{"start":26598.53,"end":26600.53,"text":"從114年到現在"},{"start":26600.53,"end":26602.53,"text":"又拖了多久了"},{"start":26602.53,"end":26604.53,"text":"就是讓他進入到"},{"start":26604.53,"end":26606.53,"text":"這樣子的死循環"},{"start":26606.53,"end":26608.53,"text":"日本的營養午餐法"},{"start":26608.53,"end":26610.53,"text":"已經這麼多年了"},{"start":26610.53,"end":26612.53,"text":"台灣還不跟進"},{"start":26612.1,"end":26614.1,"text":"現在有委員提到台中的狀況"},{"start":26614.1,"end":26616.1,"text":"OK沒關係"},{"start":26616.1,"end":26618.1,"text":"一個貢丸湯"},{"start":26618.1,"end":26620.1,"text":"九個貢丸30幾個人分"},{"start":26620.1,"end":26622.1,"text":"OK沒關係"},{"start":26622.1,"end":26624.1,"text":"有這樣的事情我們就是要處理"},{"start":26624.1,"end":26626.1,"text":"所以要有討論"},{"start":26626.1,"end":26628.1,"text":"有討論才有辦法處理"},{"start":26628.1,"end":26630.1,"text":"再來就說到才華法又說到地方跟中央的部分"},{"start":26630.1,"end":26632.1,"text":"我呼籲"},{"start":26632.1,"end":26634.1,"text":"執政黨委員你抽回嗎"},{"start":26634.1,"end":26636.1,"text":"現在只要討論到錢的部分"},{"start":26636.1,"end":26638.1,"text":"我們保留在委員會內"},{"start":26639.82,"end":26641.82,"text":"我們繼續討論到現在後面"},{"start":26641.82,"end":26643.82,"text":"比如說"},{"start":26643.82,"end":26645.82,"text":"儲公的部分"},{"start":26645.82,"end":26647.82,"text":"比如說我們營養師權益的部分"},{"start":26647.82,"end":26649.82,"text":"比如說我們食農教育的部分"},{"start":26649.82,"end":26651.82,"text":"把沒有"},{"start":26650.64,"end":26652.64,"text":"爭議的部分先處理"},{"start":26652.64,"end":26654.64,"text":"可是這個時候把它全部都"},{"start":26654.64,"end":26656.64,"text":"不要討論"},{"start":26656.24,"end":26658.24,"text":"那我覺得這是非常讓我覺得"},{"start":26658.24,"end":26660.24,"text":"很遺憾"},{"start":26660.24,"end":26662.24,"text":"我等這一刻等這麼久"},{"start":26662.24,"end":26664.24,"text":"換我當召委我要來做這件事的時候"},{"start":26664.24,"end":26666.24,"text":"還是不讓我討論"},{"start":26666.24,"end":26668.24,"text":"所以我覺得這樣子我沒辦法接受"},{"start":26668.24,"end":26670.24,"text":"那如果你要說才華法的部分的話"},{"start":26670.24,"end":26672.24,"text":"那我要講的是說"},{"start":26672.24,"end":26674.24,"text":"才華法也有可扣一般性補助款"},{"start":26674.24,"end":26676.24,"text":"讓地方政府"},{"start":26676.24,"end":26678.24,"text":"沒有辦法得到原本的"},{"start":26678.24,"end":26680.24,"text":"一些權益"},{"start":26680.24,"end":26682.24,"text":"那一來一回中央其實"},{"start":26682.24,"end":26684.24,"text":"在整體的總預算還是"},{"start":26684.24,"end":26686.24,"text":"是有餘裕的"},{"start":26686.24,"end":26688.24,"text":"那你要跟我講中央沒有錢"},{"start":26688.24,"end":26690.24,"text":"那怎麼突然又可以0到18歲"},{"start":26690.24,"end":26692.24,"text":"每個月5000"},{"start":26692.24,"end":26694.24,"text":"你跟我講說中央沒有錢"},{"start":26694.24,"end":26696.24,"text":"然後他又願意提出一堆特別條例"},{"start":26696.24,"end":26698.24,"text":"但是這個特別條例怎麼沒有"},{"start":26698.24,"end":26700.24,"text":"營養午餐特別條例"},{"start":26700.24,"end":26702.24,"text":"就是有沒有心要處理小朋友的營養午餐的問題"},{"start":26702.24,"end":26704.24,"text":"所以我真的是拜託"},{"start":26705.4,"end":26707.4,"text":"我們委員是不是這個動議"},{"start":26707.4,"end":26709.4,"text":"不要去處理"},{"start":26709.4,"end":26711.4,"text":"是不是抽回"},{"start":26711.4,"end":26713.4,"text":"那最後決定權還是保留在"},{"start":26713.4,"end":26715.4,"text":"我們提動議的委員"},{"start":26715.4,"end":26717.4,"text":"主席我們以剛剛學代三法"},{"start":26718.76,"end":26720.76,"text":"都有共識的事情你不讓他往前推進"},{"start":26723.03,"end":26725.03,"text":"那您剛剛是不是收回我們在學代"},{"start":26725.03,"end":26727.03,"text":"在大學法第35條的時候"},{"start":26727.03,"end":26729.03,"text":"大家都相對有明確的共識的時候"},{"start":26729.03,"end":26731.03,"text":"你個人覺得"},{"start":26731.03,"end":26733.03,"text":"還要再跟其他委員討論"},{"start":26733.03,"end":26735.03,"text":"所以我們會對於您的主持風格"},{"start":26735.03,"end":26737.03,"text":"沒有把握耶"},{"start":26737.03,"end":26739.03,"text":"謝謝 真的是這樣子啊"},{"start":26739.03,"end":26741.03,"text":"那更何況營養午餐把我們講了"},{"start":26741.03,"end":26743.03,"text":"39案"},{"start":26743.03,"end":26745.03,"text":"20幾個條文"},{"start":26745.41,"end":26747.41,"text":"20幾個條文"},{"start":26752.93,"end":26754.93,"text":"然後討論要有品質"},{"start":26754.93,"end":26756.93,"text":"要有效率"},{"start":26757.27,"end":26759.27,"text":"彩化法確實是一個新生的事物"},{"start":26759.27,"end":26761.27,"text":"讓整個原本大家"},{"start":26761.27,"end":26763.27,"text":"對於營養午餐的一個"},{"start":26763.27,"end":26765.27,"text":"好的政策的破壞"},{"start":26765.27,"end":26767.27,"text":"都受到了一個很大的影響"},{"start":26767.27,"end":26769.27,"text":"而這個影響"},{"start":26769.27,"end":26771.27,"text":"不是中央政府願意面對到"},{"start":26771.27,"end":26773.27,"text":"這種受到的衝擊"},{"start":26774.75,"end":26776.75,"text":"教育部也是受害者"},{"start":26777.81,"end":26779.81,"text":"教育部這一年部本部的預算"},{"start":26779.81,"end":26781.81,"text":"少了八九百億"},{"start":26782.67,"end":26784.67,"text":"他們是受害者"},{"start":26785.47,"end":26787.47,"text":"但是我們努力的想方設法"},{"start":26787.47,"end":26789.47,"text":"讓孩子的營養午餐"},{"start":26789.47,"end":26791.47,"text":"吃的好吃的健康"},{"start":26791.47,"end":26793.47,"text":"吃的有文化"},{"start":26793.47,"end":26795.47,"text":"吃的有在地特色"},{"start":26795.47,"end":26797.47,"text":"那需要很多要跟地方政府"},{"start":26797.47,"end":26799.47,"text":"來好好討論的"},{"start":26801.01,"end":26803.01,"text":"那為了討論"},{"start":26803.01,"end":26805.01,"text":"然後每一條都保留"},{"start":26805.01,"end":26807.01,"text":"那種討論就是過水"},{"start":26807.01,"end":26809.01,"text":"那種討論就是沒有實質"},{"start":26809.01,"end":26811.01,"text":"沒有回到那個Hardcore"},{"start":26811.01,"end":26813.01,"text":"我們剛剛在大學法"},{"start":26813.01,"end":26815.01,"text":"在專科學校法"},{"start":26815.01,"end":26817.01,"text":"在高級中等學校教育法裡"},{"start":26817.01,"end":26819.01,"text":"已經看到了"},{"start":26819.01,"end":26821.01,"text":"只是覺得大家時間都很寶貴"},{"start":26821.82,"end":26823.82,"text":"我們執政黨的委員"},{"start":26823.82,"end":26825.82,"text":"六位都坐在這裡"},{"start":26825.82,"end":26827.82,"text":"我們認真看待審查的每一個法案"},{"start":26829.77,"end":26831.77,"text":"但我們更希望"},{"start":26832.03,"end":26834.03,"text":"人民等了半年多"},{"start":26834.03,"end":26836.03,"text":"287天的預算能夠趕快被審議"},{"start":26836.03,"end":26838.03,"text":"這還是我們眼前教育文化委員會"},{"start":26838.03,"end":26840.03,"text":"應當承擔的責任"},{"start":26840.03,"end":26842.03,"text":"所以是不是就處理我們的動議"},{"start":26842.03,"end":26844.03,"text":"我們是具體希望"},{"start":26844.03,"end":26846.03,"text":"為了後續針對營養午餐專法"},{"start":26846.03,"end":26848.03,"text":"行政部門"},{"start":26848.03,"end":26850.03,"text":"來跟立法部門交換意見的時候"},{"start":26850.03,"end":26852.03,"text":"能夠更對焦"},{"start":26852.03,"end":26854.03,"text":"而且他們對焦的內容是"},{"start":26854.03,"end":26856.03,"text":"已經跟地方政府取得共識"},{"start":26856.03,"end":26858.03,"text":"這樣的法律"},{"start":26858.03,"end":26860.03,"text":"才能推進"},{"start":26860.03,"end":26862.03,"text":"我們委員自己矇著眼睛"},{"start":26862.03,"end":26864.03,"text":"不跟地方政府對話"},{"start":26864.03,"end":26866.03,"text":"我們無視於社會的現況"},{"start":26866.03,"end":26868.03,"text":"我們無視於教育現場的需求"},{"start":26868.03,"end":26870.03,"text":"為修而修"},{"start":26870.03,"end":26872.03,"text":"為快而快"},{"start":26872.03,"end":26874.03,"text":"我認為那樣才是不負責任"},{"start":26874.03,"end":26876.03,"text":"所以我們的動議其實"},{"start":26876.03,"end":26878.03,"text":"這種程序上的動議應當是即刻處理的"},{"start":26878.03,"end":26880.03,"text":"我們也很有耐心坐在這裡"},{"start":26880.83,"end":26882.83,"text":"來交換大家的意見"},{"start":26882.83,"end":26884.83,"text":"那是不是請主席您剛剛也說了"},{"start":26884.83,"end":26886.83,"text":"那動議要處理"},{"start":26886.83,"end":26888.83,"text":"我們的要求是請行政部門"},{"start":26888.83,"end":26890.83,"text":"再跟地方政府先行溝通"},{"start":26890.83,"end":26892.83,"text":"再把版本能夠匯聚共識"},{"start":26892.83,"end":26894.83,"text":"然後我們擇期再來審議"},{"start":26894.83,"end":26896.83,"text":"營養午餐專法"},{"start":26896.83,"end":26898.83,"text":"我想這樣會更有效能"},{"start":26898.83,"end":26900.83,"text":"更有品質也更負責任"},{"start":26900.4,"end":26902.4,"text":"好 那因為剛剛有宣告了"},{"start":26902.4,"end":26904.4,"text":"就是我講完話以後要處理"},{"start":26904.4,"end":26906.4,"text":"那因為武力華委員"},{"start":26906.4,"end":26908.4,"text":"剛剛有說希望能夠表達一些建議"},{"start":26908.4,"end":26910.4,"text":"我也有讓你發言"},{"start":26910.4,"end":26912.4,"text":"那吳釋迦委員也有再補充發言"},{"start":26912.4,"end":26914.4,"text":"所以現在葛如軍委員說"},{"start":26914.4,"end":26916.4,"text":"不公平他也要發言"},{"start":26916.4,"end":26918.4,"text":"那不好意思"},{"start":26918.4,"end":26920.4,"text":"葛如軍委員"},{"start":26922.54,"end":26924.54,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":26924.54,"end":26928.54,"text":"我想這個有能力的人找方法"},{"start":26928.54,"end":26930.54,"text":"沒有能力的人找藉口"},{"start":26931.52,"end":26933.52,"text":"這個有意願的人找方法"},{"start":26933.52,"end":26935.52,"text":"沒有意願的人找藉口"},{"start":26937.51,"end":26939.51,"text":"滿地都是藉口啦"},{"start":26939.51,"end":26943.51,"text":"今天我想真的不要審"},{"start":26943.51,"end":26945.51,"text":"千百個理由可以不要審"},{"start":26946.15,"end":26949.15,"text":"但是我們真的可以不要審嗎"},{"start":26949.68,"end":26951.68,"text":"好"},{"start":26951.3,"end":26953.3,"text":"我們覺得剛剛都已經聽過很多例子了"},{"start":26953.3,"end":26955.3,"text":"我想我不用再復述"},{"start":26955.3,"end":26957.3,"text":"那我就幾個點啦"},{"start":26957.3,"end":26959.3,"text":"第一個"},{"start":26959.3,"end":26961.3,"text":"方才柳樹斌委員也提到了"},{"start":26962.84,"end":26964.84,"text":"吳釋迦委員也提到了"},{"start":26964.84,"end":26966.84,"text":"就是說這個地方"},{"start":26967.72,"end":26969.72,"text":"的溝通"},{"start":26969.68,"end":26971.68,"text":"那我覺得還是是不是請主席"},{"start":26971.68,"end":26973.68,"text":"說不定如果待會還是看主席"},{"start":26973.68,"end":26975.68,"text":"我覺得您的風格很棒"},{"start":26975.68,"end":26977.68,"text":"就是勇於認識的風格"},{"start":26977.68,"end":26979.68,"text":"那看有沒有機會"},{"start":26981.05,"end":26983.05,"text":"要不要請這個教育部官員"},{"start":26983.05,"end":26985.05,"text":"也說明一下"},{"start":26985.05,"end":26987.05,"text":"不然因為我們營養午餐法已經審那麼長時間了"},{"start":26987.05,"end":26989.05,"text":"怎麼每一次"},{"start":26989.05,"end":26991.05,"text":"好像跟昨天前天上個月"},{"start":26991.05,"end":26993.05,"text":"上上個月"},{"start":26993.05,"end":26995.05,"text":"怎麼一樣啊"},{"start":26995.05,"end":26997.05,"text":"怎麼每次的理由都是"},{"start":26997.05,"end":26999.05,"text":"跟地方的溝通"},{"start":26999.05,"end":27001.05,"text":"那溝通的情況到底開了幾次會"},{"start":27001.05,"end":27003.05,"text":"找了誰"},{"start":27003.05,"end":27005.05,"text":"那誰的意見是什麼"},{"start":27005.05,"end":27007.05,"text":"如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27007.05,"end":27009.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27009.05,"end":27011.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27011.05,"end":27013.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27013.05,"end":27015.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27015.05,"end":27017.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27017.05,"end":27019.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27019.05,"end":27021.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27021.05,"end":27023.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27023.05,"end":27025.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27025.05,"end":27027.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27027.05,"end":27029.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27029.05,"end":27031.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27031.05,"end":27033.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27033.05,"end":27035.05,"text":"那如果有我們不同黨派的憲事"},{"start":27035.05,"end":27037.05,"text":"我們大家也都努力回去溝通"},{"start":27020.05,"end":27022.05,"text":"可以讓官員回應一下"},{"start":27022.05,"end":27024.05,"text":"開了幾次會"},{"start":27024.05,"end":27026.05,"text":"找了幾個憲事"},{"start":27026.24,"end":27028.24,"text":"這個溝通的情況如何"},{"start":27028.24,"end":27030.24,"text":"是可以講"},{"start":27030.24,"end":27032.24,"text":"那另外呢 我也稍微表達一下"},{"start":27032.24,"end":27034.24,"text":"那另外呢 我也稍微表達一下"},{"start":27034.24,"end":27036.24,"text":"就是說這個"},{"start":27037.58,"end":27039.58,"text":"要等"},{"start":27038.76,"end":27040.76,"text":"說要等誰"},{"start":27040.76,"end":27042.76,"text":"等發生什麼事才來"},{"start":27042.76,"end":27044.76,"text":"全民也在等很多事啊"},{"start":27046.29,"end":27048.29,"text":"全民也在等不附屬"},{"start":27048.29,"end":27050.29,"text":"什麼時候要附屬啊"},{"start":27050.29,"end":27052.29,"text":"全民也在等該通過的法律案"},{"start":27052.29,"end":27054.29,"text":"什麼時候要通過啊"},{"start":27054.29,"end":27056.29,"text":"全民也在等"},{"start":27056.29,"end":27058.29,"text":"這個什麼時候該編的預算"},{"start":27058.29,"end":27060.29,"text":"怎麼沒有編啊"},{"start":27060.29,"end":27062.29,"text":"我覺得營養午餐就是營養午餐"},{"start":27062.29,"end":27064.29,"text":"我覺得營養午餐就是營養午餐"},{"start":27064.29,"end":27066.29,"text":"學生的權益就是學生的權益"},{"start":27066.29,"end":27068.29,"text":"大家如果真的要來扯這些"},{"start":27068.29,"end":27070.29,"text":"我想真的不是全民之福啦"},{"start":27070.29,"end":27072.29,"text":"我想"},{"start":27072.29,"end":27074.29,"text":"除了剛剛跟主席表達建議"},{"start":27074.29,"end":27076.29,"text":"就是說看主席"},{"start":27076.29,"end":27078.29,"text":"有沒有想法"},{"start":27078.29,"end":27080.29,"text":"那處理動議之前"},{"start":27080.29,"end":27082.29,"text":"因為動議他們是說擇其在意嘛"},{"start":27082.29,"end":27084.29,"text":"其中一個理由是說"},{"start":27084.29,"end":27086.29,"text":"剛剛吳思量委員也表達"},{"start":27086.29,"end":27088.29,"text":"劉樹斌委員也表達"},{"start":27088.29,"end":27090.29,"text":"我也表達 三黨都表達"},{"start":27090.01,"end":27092.01,"text":"都認同啊 要地方溝通"},{"start":27092.01,"end":27094.01,"text":"那但是"},{"start":27094.01,"end":27096.01,"text":"這個是不是教育部官員有沒有要說明"},{"start":27096.49,"end":27098.49,"text":"那既然大家關心這個議題"},{"start":27098.49,"end":27100.49,"text":"我覺得今天我們能夠有一些"},{"start":27100.49,"end":27102.49,"text":"更多的資訊跟結果"},{"start":27102.49,"end":27104.49,"text":"被記錄下來"},{"start":27104.49,"end":27106.49,"text":"這個也才真正有利於後續的審查進度"},{"start":27106.49,"end":27108.49,"text":"不然的話 好像有一個理由"},{"start":27108.49,"end":27110.49,"text":"然後說擇其在審"},{"start":27110.49,"end":27112.49,"text":"我覺得這會讓民眾"},{"start":27112.49,"end":27114.49,"text":"覺得很奇怪"},{"start":27114.49,"end":27116.49,"text":"就是說 大家都記得啊"},{"start":27116.49,"end":27118.49,"text":"吳思量委員是很資深啊"},{"start":27118.49,"end":27120.49,"text":"雖然看不出來 因為保養的很好"},{"start":27120.49,"end":27122.49,"text":"真的很資深啊"},{"start":27122.49,"end":27124.49,"text":"可是這最早提出"},{"start":27124.49,"end":27126.49,"text":"營養午餐法"},{"start":27126.49,"end":27128.49,"text":"為什麼現在要來擇其在意"},{"start":27128.49,"end":27130.49,"text":"大家也會搞不清楚 好不好"},{"start":27130.49,"end":27132.49,"text":"所以這個我也稍微提議一下 謝謝"},{"start":27133.36,"end":27135.36,"text":"我還是要再 因為剛剛有點我名喔"},{"start":27135.36,"end":27137.36,"text":"還是要回應一下 我們下禮拜"},{"start":27137.36,"end":27139.36,"text":"就會審預算 已經排了"},{"start":27139.36,"end":27141.36,"text":"那有人說 你為什麼不上禮拜"},{"start":27141.36,"end":27143.36,"text":"我跟大家報告 我光下禮拜要排預算"},{"start":27145.55,"end":27147.55,"text":"都有公務人員跟我講 義式路還沒有印好"},{"start":27147.55,"end":27149.55,"text":"給他們一點時間"},{"start":27149.55,"end":27151.55,"text":"而且我們收案截止日"},{"start":27151.55,"end":27153.55,"text":"還要有跟委員溝通的時間"},{"start":27153.55,"end":27155.55,"text":"有的要改主決議"},{"start":27155.94,"end":27157.94,"text":"所以才讓你們有更充分的溝通"},{"start":27157.94,"end":27159.94,"text":"下禮拜才處理"},{"start":27160.08,"end":27162.08,"text":"不會不排 請職業黨委員"},{"start":27163.03,"end":27165.03,"text":"安心 放心 我們會處理"},{"start":27166.52,"end":27168.52,"text":"我還是再次強調"},{"start":27168.52,"end":27170.52,"text":"你們難道都不會好奇 怎麼會羅庭偉當了三個禮拜召委"},{"start":27170.52,"end":27174.52,"text":"你如果都覺得我的主持風格不喜歡"},{"start":27174.52,"end":27176.52,"text":"那你也會想一下 怎麼三個禮拜都看到羅庭偉"},{"start":27176.52,"end":27178.52,"text":"就是因為你們跟我換時間"},{"start":27178.52,"end":27180.52,"text":"換了時間就尊重"},{"start":27180.52,"end":27182.52,"text":"你們換了時間 你們先完成了"},{"start":27182.52,"end":27184.52,"text":"結果笑說被換時間的人"},{"start":27184.52,"end":27186.52,"text":"哈哈你都沒有 你都沒做 你不努力"},{"start":27186.52,"end":27188.52,"text":"那我也覺得很納悶"},{"start":27188.52,"end":27190.52,"text":"奇怪 我願意配合換時間"},{"start":27190.52,"end":27192.52,"text":"結果你換了我時間以後"},{"start":27192.52,"end":27194.52,"text":"突然就落井下石"},{"start":27197.89,"end":27199.89,"text":"大家有換時間的默契"},{"start":27199.89,"end":27201.89,"text":"所以換了時間默契以後"},{"start":27201.89,"end":27203.89,"text":"我再來排時間"},{"start":27203.34,"end":27205.34,"text":"如果你真的要這樣子"},{"start":27205.34,"end":27207.34,"text":"我們是不是還有一個默契 禮拜一都是考察"},{"start":27207.34,"end":27209.34,"text":"現在都在講說召委排考察"},{"start":27209.34,"end":27211.34,"text":"以後禮拜一都不要考察 沒關係啊"},{"start":27211.34,"end":27213.34,"text":"委員們也一直拜託排禮拜一考察"},{"start":27213.34,"end":27215.34,"text":"那以後我當召委都不准考察"},{"start":27215.34,"end":27217.34,"text":"我們也來監督誰來辦考察"},{"start":27217.34,"end":27219.34,"text":"不要這樣子嘛"},{"start":27219.34,"end":27221.34,"text":"每次都雙標"},{"start":27223.95,"end":27225.95,"text":"一堆委員打電話來給我"},{"start":27225.95,"end":27227.95,"text":"一定也有執政黨的委員打給我 我不要講名字啦"},{"start":27229.48,"end":27231.48,"text":"說你當召委禮拜一辦考察好不好"},{"start":27231.48,"end":27233.48,"text":"給我們好做事"},{"start":27233.31,"end":27235.31,"text":"大家一個體諒"},{"start":27236.03,"end":27238.03,"text":"羅庭偉辦考察 羅庭偉薪水小偷"},{"start":27239.78,"end":27241.78,"text":"打電話來拜託的時候不是這樣子的啦"},{"start":27243.27,"end":27245.27,"text":"現在又嫌棄我"},{"start":27245.27,"end":27247.27,"text":"沒關係 給你嫌棄 檯面上嫌棄"},{"start":27247.27,"end":27249.27,"text":"但不要雙標"},{"start":27249.41,"end":27251.41,"text":"不要私底下打電話來拜託召委排考察啊"},{"start":27254.81,"end":27256.81,"text":"要鬧這樣子"},{"start":27256.81,"end":27258.81,"text":"以後我呼籲"},{"start":27258.81,"end":27260.81,"text":"所有教育文化委員會"},{"start":27260.81,"end":27262.81,"text":"誰都不准排考察"},{"start":27261.78,"end":27263.78,"text":"哪個人排考察就抵制他"},{"start":27263.78,"end":27265.78,"text":"唾棄他"},{"start":27266.74,"end":27268.74,"text":"我們看下個禮拜誰排考察"},{"start":27270,"end":27272,"text":"不是嘛 你說沒有時間嘛"},{"start":27272,"end":27274,"text":"趕快審預算嘛"},{"start":27274,"end":27276,"text":"一定要戳破你們之間委員的一些默契嗎"},{"start":27276,"end":27278,"text":"一定要這樣子嗎"},{"start":27281.16,"end":27283.16,"text":"對啦 對啦"},{"start":27283.16,"end":27285.16,"text":"就不尊重別人"},{"start":27285.16,"end":27287.16,"text":"武力華委員的預算都審完了"},{"start":27287.16,"end":27289.16,"text":"會期還沒結束 尊重我的排案嘛"},{"start":27289.16,"end":27291.16,"text":"我有我的tempo嘛"},{"start":27291.16,"end":27293.16,"text":"我就跟你講了"},{"start":27293.16,"end":27295.16,"text":"現在學生也說他們有困境"},{"start":27295.16,"end":27297.16,"text":"讓我先讓學生的事情處理嘛"},{"start":27297.16,"end":27299.16,"text":"營養午餐遇到"},{"start":27299.16,"end":27301.16,"text":"貢丸湯只有九顆"},{"start":27301.16,"end":27303.16,"text":"我要處理營養午餐嘛"},{"start":27303.16,"end":27305.16,"text":"這也是民生議題啊"},{"start":27308.72,"end":27310.72,"text":"教育部門是不是要說明"},{"start":27310.72,"end":27312.72,"text":"剛剛那個如軍委員請教育部門回應"},{"start":27312.72,"end":27314.72,"text":"不是啦 真的"},{"start":27314.72,"end":27316.72,"text":"是不是有機會大家也簽個名一下"},{"start":27316.72,"end":27318.72,"text":"以後禮拜一都不要考察"},{"start":27318.72,"end":27320.72,"text":"全部禮拜一大家都來開會"},{"start":27322.38,"end":27324.38,"text":"不要委員"},{"start":27324.38,"end":27326.38,"text":"明明就執政黨委員"},{"start":27326.11,"end":27328.11,"text":"一直在那邊講別人"},{"start":27328.59,"end":27330.59,"text":"然後自己在那邊偷偷的辦考察"},{"start":27332.21,"end":27334.21,"text":"這我真的呼籲啊"},{"start":27334.21,"end":27336.21,"text":"委員不要雙標啊"},{"start":27336.15,"end":27338.15,"text":"好 我們針對"},{"start":27337.98,"end":27339.98,"text":"本日有委員"},{"start":27341.22,"end":27343.22,"text":"Tiano"},{"start":27343.28,"end":27345.28,"text":"行政人員宣讀"},{"start":27351.61,"end":27353.61,"text":"針對本日會議議程繼續審查"},{"start":27353.61,"end":27355.61,"text":"委員歡迎等16人"},{"start":27355.61,"end":27357.61,"text":"擬具學校公參法查案"},{"start":27357.61,"end":27359.61,"text":"等相關修正查案"},{"start":27359.61,"end":27361.61,"text":"建於地方制度法第18條"},{"start":27361.61,"end":27363.61,"text":"第19條規定"},{"start":27363.61,"end":27365.61,"text":"國中小學校"},{"start":27365.61,"end":27367.61,"text":"營養午餐為地方自治事項"},{"start":27367.61,"end":27369.61,"text":"然各地方縣市相關"},{"start":27369.61,"end":27371.61,"text":"午餐運作機制不一"},{"start":27371.61,"end":27373.61,"text":"能有待中央地方"},{"start":27373.61,"end":27375.61,"text":"溝通協調"},{"start":27375.61,"end":27377.61,"text":"你請做成如下決議"},{"start":27377.61,"end":27379.61,"text":"本日會議進行到此為止"},{"start":27379.61,"end":27381.61,"text":"相關法案審查"},{"start":27381.61,"end":27383.61,"text":"定期審議"},{"start":27383.71,"end":27387.71,"text":"提案人吳立華 吳思堯 陳秀寶 郭議前宣讀完畢"},{"start":27391.54,"end":27393.54,"text":"好"},{"start":27392.65,"end":27394.65,"text":"那有沒有意義"},{"start":27394.98,"end":27396.98,"text":"好 有意義喔"},{"start":27398.9,"end":27400.9,"text":"我們先清點人數喔"},{"start":27409.78,"end":27411.78,"text":"沒關係 劉樹斌委員不是"},{"start":27418.23,"end":27420.23,"text":"好"},{"start":27419.4,"end":27421.4,"text":"在場出席委員10人不按主席喔"},{"start":27422.74,"end":27424.74,"text":"現在開始表決"},{"start":27426.44,"end":27428.44,"text":"贊成提案"},{"start":27429.14,"end":27431.14,"text":"請舉手"},{"start":27435.06,"end":27437.06,"text":"好來 1 2 3 4 5 6"},{"start":27437.06,"end":27439.06,"text":"好 6位"},{"start":27439.06,"end":27441.06,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":27440.83,"end":27442.83,"text":"反對請舉手"},{"start":27443.36,"end":27445.36,"text":"樹斌委員你也可以提 舉手啦"},{"start":27445.36,"end":27447.36,"text":"只是不會列入而已啦"},{"start":27447.36,"end":27449.36,"text":"可以表達他的意願啦"},{"start":27449.89,"end":27451.89,"text":"對不對 1 2 3 4"},{"start":27453.45,"end":27455.45,"text":"好 4位"},{"start":27455.45,"end":27457.45,"text":"那我也舉個手啦 雖然我不能夠表決"},{"start":27457.45,"end":27459.45,"text":"但是表達一下我的意願"},{"start":27459.45,"end":27461.45,"text":"很可惜沒有辦法"},{"start":27461.45,"end":27463.45,"text":"繼續為小朋友營養午餐"},{"start":27463.45,"end":27465.45,"text":"來推進喔"},{"start":27468.18,"end":27470.18,"text":"好"},{"start":27469.28,"end":27471.28,"text":"表決結果贊成"},{"start":27471.28,"end":27473.28,"text":"這一次的"},{"start":27473.5,"end":27475.5,"text":"程序提動議喔"},{"start":27475.5,"end":27477.5,"text":"那多數本案通過"},{"start":27480,"end":27482,"text":"在場出席委員10人不按主席"},{"start":27482,"end":27484,"text":"贊成者6人 反對者4人"},{"start":27484,"end":27486,"text":"我們現在"},{"start":27486,"end":27488,"text":"贊成者多數本案通過"},{"start":27490.97,"end":27492.97,"text":"好"},{"start":27492.15,"end":27494.15,"text":"學校午餐及"},{"start":27494.15,"end":27496.15,"text":"飲食教育條例草案"},{"start":27496.15,"end":27498.15,"text":"相關草案"},{"start":27498.15,"end":27500.15,"text":"只能定期"},{"start":27500.15,"end":27502.15,"text":"繼續審查"},{"start":27502.15,"end":27504.15,"text":"報告委員會今天議程處理完畢"},{"start":27504.15,"end":27506.15,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":27506.15,"end":27508.15,"text":"那我還是要講一下請列入公報記錄"},{"start":27508.15,"end":27510.15,"text":"陳培文要求列入公報記錄"},{"start":27510.15,"end":27512.15,"text":"剛剛不是只有民進黨委員要求主席"},{"start":27512.15,"end":27514.15,"text":"讓國教署進行說明"},{"start":27514.15,"end":27516.15,"text":"因為連剛剛劉樹斌委員都說了"},{"start":27516.15,"end":27518.15,"text":"從1月開始到現在"},{"start":27518.15,"end":27520.15,"text":"各縣市的狀況"},{"start":27520.15,"end":27522.15,"text":"各位委員你們不好奇嗎"},{"start":27522.15,"end":27524.15,"text":"地方政府在跟中央政府之間開會"},{"start":27524.15,"end":27526.15,"text":"不會只有才華法的問題"},{"start":27526.15,"end":27528.15,"text":"相關的這些法規適應的問題"},{"start":27528.15,"end":27530.15,"text":"他都不想聽嗎"},{"start":27530.15,"end":27532.15,"text":"但主席決定滿恨的就處理"},{"start":27532.15,"end":27534.15,"text":"臨時動議這件事"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":3082.25,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":2568.85,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":2186.09,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_02","embedding":"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