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那個本例議程啊本席所列臺灣中醫療顧問公司"},{"start":1770.515,"end":1797.311,"text":"台中有股份有限公司及台湾自来水股份有限公司的预算我们在经济委会在5月11日在第13次会议我们均已询答完毕我们现在要依序进行审查我们依据预算法第50条及相关规定照业务计划部分营业收支及生产成本转投资计划重大之建设失业资金运用及补办预算部分我们逐项进行审查"},{"start":1798.468,"end":1812.816,"text":"現在請宣讀今日審查項目與委員提案宣讀完畢之後我們再進行系上處理請宣讀115年度中央政府總預算案經濟部主管附屬單位預算台灣中油股份有限公司業務計畫請參閱營業總收支一兆1846億3728萬1000元"},{"start":1819.343,"end":1822.185,"text":"營業總支出1,766億3,728萬1千元稅前淨利80億元生產成本請參閱轉投資計畫增加投資19億9,066萬3千元重大資建設事業"},{"start":1835.424,"end":1838.127,"text":"515億5,776萬4千元資金運用請參閱補辦預算依固定資產之建設改良擴充180億8,300萬元二資金之轉投資增加39億8,497萬4千元"},{"start":1853.393,"end":1878.768,"text":"提案部分第一案產銷營運計畫公安環保及衛生環境保護凍結10%陳超明等人提案第二案凍結500萬元邱志偉等人提案第三案凍結500萬元邱毅英等人提案第四案工業安全凍結300萬元賴瑞榮等人提案第五案研究發展凍結500萬元邱志偉等人提案第六案凍結300萬元賴瑞榮等人提案第七案"},{"start":1879.528,"end":1897.61,"text":"净零转型关键战略行动计划冻结10%陈超明等人提案第8案冻结200万元赖瑞龙等人提案第9案前瞻能源冻结1%振振前等人提案服务费第10案服务费用冻结1%谢一凤等人提案第11案服务费用"},{"start":1898.311,"end":1903.697,"text":"凍結1% 蟹翼鳳等人提案 第12案 凍結1% 蟹翼鳳等人提案第13案 媒體政策與業務宣導費減劣10% 楊瓊英等人提案 第14案 營業成本 銷售成本凍結300萬元陳廷飛等人提案 第15案 銷貨成本向下製造費用 規費 碳費 凍結"},{"start":1917.893,"end":1920.534,"text":"凍結500萬元邱志偉等人提案第16案勞務成本下下油氣輸出費用修理保養與保固費凍結10%陳昌明等人提案第17案其他營業成本探勘費用減列130萬陳亭飛等人提案第18案凍結1%鄭征前等人提案第19案"},{"start":1940.525,"end":1949.693,"text":"凍結10%陳超明等人提案第20案凍結10%楊瓊瑩等人提案第21案凍結1000萬元賴日榮等人提案第22案凍結500萬元邱志偉等人提案第23案看勘費用下服務費用專業服務費減列1000萬元凍結3億元洪玉祥等人提案第24案凍結1億元李玉玲等人提案第25案凍結3800萬鐘嘉斌等人提案"},{"start":1964.085,"end":1970.896,"text":"第26案委託檢驗試驗費凍結100萬元宗家冰等人提案第27案實項營業成本凍結10%羊球營等人提案第28案營業費用向下行銷費用向下服務費用"},{"start":1979.449,"end":1998.139,"text":"之媒体政策与业务宣导费及推展费各冻结20万元中嘉宾等人提案第29案媒体政策与业务宣导费减列1000万元冻结2000万元洪玉祥等人提案第30案减列600万元陈超明等人提案第31案冻结100万元李玉玲等人提案"},{"start":1998.803,"end":2020.377,"text":"第32案推展費減列3000萬元陳昌明等人提案第33案減列200萬元凍結2000萬元洪玉祥等人提案第34案營業費用向下管理費用減列10%楊秋瑩等人提案第35案減列10%楊秋瑩等人提案第36案營業費用向下研究發展費用減列10%楊秋瑩等人提案第37案凍結100萬元呂一林等人提案第38案"},{"start":2024.319,"end":2041.168,"text":"服务费用向下专业服务费冻结1亿元洪玉祥等人提案第39案营业外费用财务成本向下利息费用冻结1%谢一凤等人提案第40案冻结1亿元洪玉祥等人提案第41案其他营业外"},{"start":2042.308,"end":2065.089,"text":"費用 實項費用 簽件管線經費 減列五百萬元 凍結一千萬元 耐用等人提案第四十二案 桃園觀音藻礁生態富裕及生態補償 凍結一百萬元 鋁鈴等人提案第四十三案 投資計畫向下 塔達能源液化天然氣公司 凍結三千萬元 鋁鈴等人提案"},{"start":2065.689,"end":2092.427,"text":"第44案固定资产建设改良扩充减列40亿元邱志伟等人提案第45案专案计划冻结3亿元洪玉祥等人提案第46案冻结100万元李玉玲等人提案第47案继续计划向下6计划天然气事业部第三座液化天然气接收站投资计划及天然气事业部永安厂增建除槽投资计划"},{"start":2093.027,"end":2111.74,"text":"及天然氣事業部台中廠三期投資計劃及天然氣事業部台中廠港外擴建投資計劃及天然氣事業部洲際液化天然氣接收站投資計劃及天然氣事業部永安置通宵第二條海底輸氣管線投資計劃"},{"start":2116.124,"end":2128.353,"text":"凍結1%鄭天才等人提案第48案天然氣事業部第三座液化天然氣接收站投資計劃凍結500萬元宗家濱等人提案第49案高雄港"},{"start":2129.571,"end":2157.796,"text":"高雄港洲寄貨櫃二期大林石油化儲運中心投資計劃凍結1000萬元耐熱容等人提案第五十案工程管理費凍結五分之一陳昌明等人提案第五十一案一般建築及設備向下機械及設備下研究發展用機械設備下鏈延鎖智慧化頭技術開發及應用設備凍結十分之一洪玉祥等人提案"},{"start":2158.939,"end":2183.921,"text":"第52案補辦預算向下固定資產之建設改良擴充專案計劃凍結四分之一真真錢等人提案第53案資金資轉投資凍結500萬元邱志偉等人提案第54案台灣智慧電能股份有限公司全數凍結真真錢等人提案第55案到103案主決議請參閱台灣自來水股份有限公司業務計劃請參閱"},{"start":2187.559,"end":2193.601,"text":"營業總收入341億4142萬2千元營業總支出不含所得稅費用410億5630萬2千元稅前競損69億1488萬元生產成本請參閱投資轉投資計劃無劣數重大資建設事業"},{"start":2211.706,"end":2229.098,"text":"255億2170萬元資金運用請參閱補辦預算固定資產之建設改良擴充9198萬2000元提案部分第一案服務費用減列100萬元蔡宇等人提案第二案減列100萬元賴日榮等人提案第三案凍結1%謝一鳳等人提案第四案凍結1%謝一鳳等人提案"},{"start":2232.34,"end":2241.591,"text":"第五案服務費用營業成本銷向下銷銷售成本原水費用凍結500萬元中嘉賓等人提案第六案供水費用"},{"start":2243.996,"end":2263.215,"text":"凍結5%羊球營等人提案第七案凍結500萬元宗家濱等人提案第八案營業費用向下業務費用凍結10%羊球營等人提案第九案管理費用減劣5%羊球營等人提案第十案水電費減劣100萬元濫用等人提案第十一案凍結100萬元鋁鈴等人提案"},{"start":2263.775,"end":2290.809,"text":"第十四 第十二案 水電費向下水電 營業成本 銷售成本向下 原水費用凍結八千萬元 洪玉祥等人提案第十三案 淨水費用凍結兩千萬元 洪玉祥等人提案第十四案 動力費凍結百分之一 謝一鳳等人提案第十五案 凍結三千萬元 洪玉祥等人提案第十六案 凍結五百萬元 邱志偉等人提案第十七案 修理保養與保固費用 減列一百萬元 邱毅英等人提案"},{"start":2291.389,"end":2307.379,"text":"第18案檢列100萬元蔡育宇等人提案第19案暫除包裝代理及加工費用檢列100萬元蔡育宇等人提案第20案營業成本向下勞務成本用戶新給水裝置成本"},{"start":2310.263,"end":2326.183,"text":"簡列100萬元邱毅英等人提案 第二十一案外包費凍結10%陳昌明等人提案 第二十二案材料及用品費向下供水費用 簡列6000萬元洪玉祥等人提案 第二十三案使用材料費"},{"start":2327.645,"end":2339.184,"text":"營業成本向下銷售成本淨水費減列100萬元邱毅英等人提案第二次案原料減列300萬元陳廷飛等人提案第二次案營業成本向下銷售成本淨水費用凍結15%陳昌明等人提案"},{"start":2342.489,"end":2355.878,"text":"第26案 勞務成本向下用水新設給水裝置成本 凍結3000萬元 洪玉祥等人提案第27案 觀光遊樂費用凍結500萬元 洪玉祥等人提案第28案 營業外費用減列10% 楊秋英等人提案第29案 財務成本向下利息費用減列200萬元 賴瑞榮等人提案第30案 凍結1% 謝一鳳等人提案"},{"start":2367.967,"end":2380.415,"text":"第31案固定資產建設改良擴充節能向下節能部分凍結10%陳昭明等人提案第32案專案計劃凍結100萬元李玉玲等人提案第33案繼續計劃凍結500萬元邱志維等人提案第34案備援調度管管管工程計劃減列8億2000萬元邱志維等人提案第35案台中自雲林區域水"},{"start":2395.478,"end":2423.762,"text":"原調度管線改善計畫減列2億5千萬元邱志偉等人提案第36案浮流水開發工程計畫第二期凍結750萬宗家濱等人提案第37案漏水降低漏水率計畫凍結10%陳昌明等人提案第38案凍結700萬元宗家濱等人提案第39案凍結500萬元洪玉祥等人提案第40案無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期自來水"},{"start":2424.582,"end":2451.074,"text":"眼管工程凍結1500萬宗嘉賓等人提案第41案凍結500萬元邱志維等人提案第42案凍結100萬元呂玉玲等人提案第43案南台中淨水廠供水工程計劃減劣4億元邱志維等人提案第44案新興計劃關西淨水廠及新埔板水中心改善工程減劣6000萬元邱志維等人提案第45案一般建築及設備計劃"},{"start":2453.487,"end":2477.265,"text":"向下房屋及建築凍結五千萬元洪玉祥等人提案第46案至86案主決議請參閱宣讀完畢今天處理這個自來水公司跟中油公司預算經濟委員會的預算都非常重要關係到這個國家經濟的發展"},{"start":2480.014,"end":2507.519,"text":"農業的發展 國家的發展所以萬事莫如預算機本席擔任召委在負責的部分國安會跟農業部都已審查完略國營事業部分是今天如果順利希望在上午十二時之前完成中油跟台水的預算審查"},{"start":2509.124,"end":2525.106,"text":"那這樣我的部分就完成了那國營事業包括油電糖水都關鍵到國際民生都關鍵到這個能源安全那農業部的預算我們也全部審查通過那"},{"start":2527.107,"end":2551.932,"text":"這個也沒有簡列所以農業部預算關係到臺灣整體農業跟漁業的發展國外會議算我們也沒有簡列或讓我們預算我們經濟委員會算是非常團結這個朝野都有共識希望能夠透過預算通過讓行政部門能夠穩健的施政如果預算外廉通過"},{"start":2553.563,"end":2581.628,"text":"對整體國家市政會形成這個相當大負面影響算一算時程已經過了半年了進入下半年度如果我們一款預算再不通過那緊接著八月份明年度預算又要送進來兩年度的預算第一是省這個前所未見"},{"start":2583.055,"end":2611.122,"text":"我擔任立委是四年從來沒有見過這種狀況但是很可能發生但是我是希望說我們經濟委員會能夠做一個八個委員會的表率能夠順利把經濟委員會各單位跟國民事業預算最快的速度審訊完畢當然其他委員會我沒辦法控制但我相信我跟這個洪義祥召委我們都有這個共識"},{"start":2613.001,"end":2637.898,"text":"能夠盡快把攸關國際民生攸關能源安全攸關這個農業發展漁業發展我們經濟委員會的所屬新政部門所屬國際預算能夠在八個委員會能夠率先達證所以我就今天跟大家一起來共同努力好"},{"start":2640.566,"end":2662.642,"text":"這個我們先進行自來水部分的預算的協商啦在場委員有洪英翔委員跟鍾立佳議員我們進行主項處理好先處理營業總支出的部分營業支出的部分我們從第1案處理到21案其中有差異於"},{"start":2664.537,"end":2693.495,"text":"第一案 蔡玉瑜第二案 賴瑞榮第三案 謝一鳳第四案 謝一鳳第五案 鍾嘉斌跟吳立華第六案 楊瓊英第七案 鍾嘉斌跟吳立華第八案 楊瓊英第九案 楊瓊英第十案 賴瑞榮第十一案 呂玉琳以及第十四案 謝一鳳"},{"start":2695.031,"end":2720.931,"text":"第16案 邱志偉 17案 邱益穎18案 蔡宇 19案 蔡宇 18案 20案 邱益穎以及21案 陳超明 以上皆改成主協議好 現場有提案委員 洪雲翔委員 洪委員要不要針對您的提案再做一些詢問"},{"start":2724.533,"end":2728.481,"text":"有關我的提案的話大概就是在你們的服務費用12、13跟15"},{"start":2733.356,"end":2755.941,"text":"那主要是在這個服務費用的一個水電費那這邊的話呢目前因為你們的115的編列的一個預算當然比114年度的預算要增加很多那當然你們有跟我解釋就是大概是在你們用決算的金額來看嘛"},{"start":2756.704,"end":2777.997,"text":"但是我覺得在這個比較的項目基準的時候可能你們在預算跟決算那個落差那因為這個你們有來跟我說明那你可以再跟再詳細的解釋一下就是說你這個編列這樣子增加的幅度是為什麼當然我們知道你的電力費用會"},{"start":2778.897,"end":2790.577,"text":"因為因為因為今年的或者是去年的這些油價高漲使得發電的一些電力的設施費用增加好不好再再說明一下好請台水呃李董事長說明"},{"start":2795.469,"end":2810.394,"text":"謝謝我們洪委員的一個指導那我們在針對12案、13案還有15案大概就是公司編列的這個水電費包括鹽水費用、淨水費用跟整體的供水費用的一個動力費要"},{"start":2812.655,"end":2820.304,"text":"做部分的一個凍結那我在這邊跟紅委員跟各位委員在做的說明其實我們115年度的這個進水費用編的是3.3億那"},{"start":2829.013,"end":2858.172,"text":"去年下半年跟水利署這邊的一個供水情勢的一個檢討那我們今年可能會面臨的 包括上半年水情可能是比較不好那下半年又有可能會有颱風 豪雨極端氣候的影響會導致我們鹽水這個濁度會飆升所以在進水用電的部分是勢必一定會增加那"},{"start":2860.977,"end":2875.384,"text":"這個公司這邊也針對各廠商的供水設備效力來積極在推動Xcode的一個處理盡量能夠達到節電的目標那至於整個服務費的部分服務費用我們編的42.45億一樣跟我剛才所講的因為"},{"start":2881.346,"end":2899.888,"text":"水錢的一個不佳那公司要積極的做一些供水的調度例如台南地區有一些高科技的產業我們要從高雄加壓北宋這些都需要用使用動力來跨區的水量調度另外我們在"},{"start":2901.269,"end":2926.525,"text":"北部的部分 那我們要跟北水處多購入了一些清水的調度來支援阪新地區那至於在沿水費用的部分整個水情不佳的一個情況下那我們的調度包括我們中部集體院要增加起水 因為要"},{"start":2929.185,"end":2958.165,"text":"流存在部分的水量在湖山水庫那從集體驗汽水的話就要增加一些動力那另外我們在新竹地區也一樣這個從上坪南河岩來攻堡山那足東郡的部分要取用這個油螺基的鹽水也要增加一些的這個動力費那高坪西南河岩的部分也都需要增加"},{"start":2961.587,"end":2986.624,"text":"這個沖水所有原水的一個水電的費用也會增加那依據我們去年114年的一個結算其實我們今年所編的都比114年的結算還少一點那這些都是為了供水穩定所必要的一個支出支應希望委員能夠支持好 謝謝李董事長說明非常那個"},{"start":2988.205,"end":3012.215,"text":"你是十二案、十三案一起詢問嗎?所以原水跟進水的部分?對,十二、十三...是這樣,跟洪委員做說明,這個大概除了台北市之外,我們大概台水的服務大概是中南部、豪州苗還有原住民區域所以我們幾乎每一個區立委,特別是中南部,幾乎每天都跟各區處同仁"},{"start":3013.44,"end":3040.902,"text":"在討論地方的這個自來水相關的工程所以自來水公司的同仁非常辛苦因為他預算相對比其他國人事業更為拮据所以在這種相對拮据預算的情況之下他還要做那麼多事情那我覺得實屬難得所以我是不是經營紅員這個部分我就著重不要動那麼多因為這個不管是原水跟進水他編列的預算比往年還少"},{"start":3042.263,"end":3059.053,"text":"因為這個各區域我們各區域都會面臨到這個相關的費用所以如果你凍結過多但解凍了 哇 已經二顆就沒辦法使用了所以我覺得是不是大概"},{"start":3060.56,"end":3086.934,"text":"大概著動一點點讓他們提出更精進的作為那我希望說李董事長針對洪耀明詢問的事項我們再請相關同仁到他辦公室做一個詳細的說明我稍微簡單的補充說明因為根據以前我們在審企業的時候因為你的預算跟決算會有落差所以你的114年的預算對不對跟你115年的預算同而相比你是增加的"},{"start":3087.634,"end":3114.014,"text":"那表示你114年的決算金額你又說我現在編的比較低嘛那就代表說你當時114年決算花掉的錢比你114年預算的估還要多嘛還要多那我是覺得有幾個結構性的建議你要去理解因為我們經營公司嘛所以呢我這一個預算決算的金額拉高之後所以我的cost往上的那一個因子"},{"start":3115.152,"end":3132.452,"text":"我的要求是說要看到分析比如說我這個成本的就是我耗用費用成本的增加是因為我電費電價的這個調漲這個增加了多少還是我的設備老舊耗能的增加這個比例會是多少還是因為"},{"start":3133.593,"end":3144.549,"text":"就刚刚你讲的我因为要供应对不对所以我要供水我要加烟要bump这些那这样子的发生的比例跟水量所造成的成本是多少你要把这一个"},{"start":3145.526,"end":3173.294,"text":"弄出來給我們好那因為你這樣你做經營者你才知道說我的預算跟決算我決算給多少錢嘛那多少錢的原因是在哪一些在我來年是可以改善的嘛比如說你電價調漲那個可能就不是你的能控制的但是你可能就要先跟台電預估好或者是因為你們比較可憐嘛因為有時候你們會被歸類成那個工業用水大戶的調度他就會漲到你的價格"},{"start":3173.954,"end":3193.293,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西要把它分析清楚啦因為我們這個董事長總經理你給他對這個成本為什麼拉高那我可不可以improve改善那另外一個問題就是說因為當你的耗電能量增加你會跟國家的這個淨零台灣的那個政策會抵觸啦"},{"start":3194.494,"end":3218.683,"text":"因為你電力會增加你的碳稀素碳排就會往上升而且那個東西就會很高所以我是覺得你要從這兩方面下去著手那我支持邱委員只是說我必須要把這個成本結構為什麼上升的原因搞清楚嘛好不好那我就遵照這個邱委員只是說我們著動少一點好不好"},{"start":3220.444,"end":3237.205,"text":"你再交個報告給我書面報告給我這樣子書面報告也記得給我因為我這樣講你應該聽得懂就各位經營決策的我像我自己做經營決策我一定看這件事情記得在我辦公室再詳細討論一下會後"},{"start":3239.531,"end":3263.839,"text":"好 這個大家都有這個公司也謝謝洪委員的這個相關的詢問我想整個營業總支出我們是不是我們把它因為如果凍結太多如果等解凍之後來不及對形同簡略啦所以我們要凍多一點上面請問我們凍一千萬凍一千萬還是五百萬"},{"start":3268.179,"end":3293.494,"text":"報告主席好了一百啦因為這個動一百讓他們好好做工作但是一個酥麵吃掉跟該做的報告你十五案呢還沒有一樣動一百萬那十五天之內提出報告十五天你要寫快一點我們要知道你到底你原因出在哪裡15天15天齁好我們"},{"start":3297.099,"end":3303.903,"text":"凍結100萬15天之內整個營業總支出然後好我們就整個20 從議案到21案凍結100萬兩週之內提出書面報告實在凍結好大家注意第22案"},{"start":3323.769,"end":3337.928,"text":"二十二案是洪耀強委員提案 洪耀強要不要再說明還是直接請他們說明好 你說明好了我再告訴你我為什麼要這樣子說明請台水 請台水 李董事長說明"},{"start":3345.049,"end":3364.838,"text":"22案是那個洪昭偉就針對我們的材料用品匯的部分要來檢列大概6000萬那最主要原因是洪偉認為公司的材料庫存"},{"start":3365.778,"end":3382.316,"text":"存量都很高 積壓至今顯示公司內部的物料掉波及致失靈那我這邊是要說明因為洪昭偉要檢列這個材料及用品會 這個供水費用"},{"start":3383.617,"end":3399.349,"text":"公司編約大概有11億6千萬那其中的11億最主要是我們跟台北自然水事業處要來購水這個供應我們阪新地區這個購水的費用"},{"start":3402.182,"end":3424.551,"text":"那這個是配合整個北部水源調度的政策跟供應會所以供應會催水的一個購水的費用這就編了11億那另外公司之前編的一些的材料會都是維持供水穩定及緊急搶修的必要支出比因台風地震適度的"},{"start":3425.251,"end":3442.682,"text":"備料確保供水不中斷的必要措施那公司的庫存我們也調查112年大概有每年大概8億那到114年就去年我們這個庫存料大概已經降到6.3億了 減乎有21%也顯示說我們在"},{"start":3447.645,"end":3476.211,"text":"庫存管理有持續在經時並沒有累積或失控的情形另外我們久未動用材料系搶修戰備器材不可替代性並透過整合平台跨區的調播及每季物料管控檢討會議機制來持續的去化那這個費用確實也是公司的業務需要那懇請委員能夠大力支持"},{"start":3477.313,"end":3501.73,"text":"我稍微說明一下因為上次你們有來找我溝通那因為這個從我們經營的一個角度來看的話Spare parts這些零組件的這些的倉以及這些物料的備用當然是有其必要性但是我也看出你們的這一個長年的預算我覺得那個最大的問題是結構性的問題"},{"start":3504.071,"end":3521.231,"text":"第一個就是說你的ERP跟物料的這些等等的供應的管理系統我覺得可能跟我們一般這種科技業或是比較好一點的業的一個系統的一個精準度跟預估我覺得這個是有落差"},{"start":3522.092,"end":3550.239,"text":"所以我覺得將來是可以去跟那個經濟部那個所屬的科技公司好好的取經一下 看怎麼去改善 因為你們現在都是自己開發 我大概清楚但是尤其你們的物料的特性那第二個就是說也給你一個建議啦 就是說當我們的sport parts很多散落在各地區的購水處的時候那可能你的採購物料的成本跟這個所謂的跨境的調多可能"},{"start":3551.294,"end":3571.865,"text":"要做得更好 因為我們spare parts有兩種艙一種叫總艙總艙就像我們早期的話我們在科技業我就是基隆上船七堵八堵完然後就到全省各地的維修站但是那樣子的缺點好處就是成本可以控制嘛但缺點就是你維修服務的效率會比較不好"},{"start":3572.705,"end":3590.742,"text":"所以我們會到分散倉到分散倉去的時候 你的分散倉的物料的供應跟成本的累積你就要去算得很清楚包含你的Walentine 保固期 告你的折舊等等你們這個當然都是緊急搶修那"},{"start":3591.463,"end":3606.099,"text":"我是希望你們可以稍微在科學更精進一點去跟科技業取經比如說我覺得像以前我們在做這些Acer的這種Fear Service的系統或者是維修服務的系統或是像Senda這種我覺得他們對這種都非常的"},{"start":3606.88,"end":3620.896,"text":"Mature 非常成熟所以我覺得你們可以去好好去跟這些人取經如果不認識這些公司你找我或是找那個經濟部產發署他們都很熟這些公司去取經去看一下人家有什麼值得借鏡的因為我覺得對你的"},{"start":3622.785,"end":3647.834,"text":"spare parts的調度跟擴散管控成本有幫助啦這是我給你的建議所以我的建議是這樣子好不好我也不要簡略啦我就改組決議然後你好好提出這個整個資訊物料ERP調度系統的這些好不好啊曲君丸跟我們報告一下謝謝洪委員曲君丸記得跟大家報告22案改成組決議謝謝"},{"start":3649.898,"end":3676.475,"text":"那23案就令委員提案已改成主決議24案陳廷輝委員改主決議25案陳昌明委員改主決議好 現在出於26案侯委員提案侯委員直接請他們說明嗎好 請台水李董事長說明26案是公司編的用戶新裝集水裝置成本大概有24億8千萬"},{"start":3679.005,"end":3707.941,"text":"那這個費用大概就是我們每一年有很多新增加的用戶那需要來跟公司申請用水那我們要花包給我們的施工承包商那施工承包商裡面大概在24.82億裡面佔有71%這都是我外包給承包商的一個成本費用那"},{"start":3710.342,"end":3734.808,"text":"另外委員有提出來公司在針對智慧水表的部分是不是包括我們智慧水表的安裝戶數比例還有一些座落的區域跟希望能夠承包商能夠透明化把我們這幾年的智慧水表的一些的"},{"start":3736.228,"end":3763.455,"text":"推動的一個情況來跟委員會這邊做說明那除了我剛報告過了這個新冠成本有70%是用在我的外包的案件那我新專的水表大概也編有大概0.92億那智慧水表大概只有編900多萬因為智慧水表的部分我們現在是希望用戶如果他要安裝的話"},{"start":3765.015,"end":3782.134,"text":"要智慧來公司才會去幫他做安裝所以整個智慧水表的預算大概我們也比去年減少了有2300萬並沒有擴大整個智慧水表的一個資本支出那"},{"start":3782.955,"end":3808.232,"text":"公司對於在推動智慧水表我們都符合國家的一個標準並採供公開招標的方式而且確保這個水表的一個電池能夠保護8年也沒有限制廠商競爭那這個用戶新關集水專制成本我們認為這個經費所兵也是業務需要為了免影響用戶"},{"start":3809.893,"end":3824.262,"text":"生磚的供水騎乘及用水遷移也懇請委員能夠支持我稍微說明一下就是說第一個因為這個大概就是你有騎乘的一個外包的施工的費用"},{"start":3825.143,"end":3846.044,"text":"那當然我還是希望說你把這些外包施工的費用能夠去做比如說這幾年比如說近三年或近五年的羅列因為我覺得這些的廠商我們不是說他是爛的廠商而是說他各個不同地區施工的成本同樣的工程會不會有一些成本或勞務上的誤差"},{"start":3847.004,"end":3874.586,"text":"那这个可以作为你外包的费用的control跟品质的一个控制所以我是希望你有这样子的一个报表或是报告的一个分析就这几年然后不同地区什么工程你的外包哪些的厂商然后费用的比较等等因为outsourcing的一个管控对你是很重要因为你有七成的费用是在这个地方那因为你要抢修或者是干嘛然后另外就是说这个我比较"},{"start":3876.125,"end":3904.75,"text":"擔心的是這個智慧水表智慧水表我的擔心不是說你編太少就是你編太多倒不是因為我那時候跟你溝通的時候你發現像我們台電智慧電表應該就是台電公司出錢那你們這個是要用戶自己出錢可是我覺得經濟部喊了那麼久的物聯網民生什麼物聯網一堆一堆我覺得經濟部應該是幫你台水增加這個智慧水表的一個"},{"start":3905.49,"end":3926.247,"text":"布建的一个费用因为你要有智慧的水表你才可以让用户知道他的水量什么这些的用水对台湾的解水才会有帮助就我觉得常常政府在喊什么物联网民生物联网这个喊了快10年以上但是我们的国民事业自己都没机器我知道你很可怜"},{"start":3927.588,"end":3947.645,"text":"就是你剛剛講一個智慧水館才編9百萬這簡直是匪夷所思我是覺得你應該是編9億的但我不能增加你的預算但是我從一個科技的角度使用者的角度來講我覺得這個對你數據的掌握智慧化的分析才有一些幫助這個是我給你的建議因為"},{"start":3951.109,"end":3971.806,"text":"我這樣子好不好我動少一點啦我動你這個一百萬然後你趕快交一個這個就是委外廠商的估價的分析的這些的報告給我們就可以就可以動之好不好那謝文委員好我幫那個楊委員說一下他的第八案跟第九案過了嗎他該主決議對該主決議好這個26案謝謝洪業強委員那個"},{"start":3978.251,"end":3990.671,"text":"二十六案凍結一百萬兩週之內提出詳細的報告兩週之內 始則凍之好 二十七案來觀光遊樂費用這部分紅衛直接請他們說明"},{"start":3992.893,"end":4019.839,"text":"對 簡單說明就好 聽李董事長說明好 那27案是公司在觀光遊樂費用編了3571萬那最主要是我們高雄的澄清湖這個觀光區的必要的費用那去年公司已經把高雄澄清湖觀光區的業務來移交由高雄市政府來接管讓全國的民眾到"},{"start":4020.94,"end":4043.917,"text":"這個高雄市的澄清湖都可以免費入場不過我們還編了3500多萬就是說因為這個議案在114年編的時候我們的人事費用還有2000多萬的人事費用這些人他並沒有移波給高雄市政還是會轉到我們自己公司的其他的業務單位去進進我們的業務所以這個"},{"start":4046.298,"end":4068.606,"text":"這個三千多萬的觀光遊樂費用裡面包括人事費用就兩千多萬那我們還有一些固定資產要體內折舊的那這一塊大概因為是去年才一波給高雄市政府今年編的預算還是要執行那我們或許明年我們這個預算可能就不太會再編這個費用"},{"start":4074.402,"end":4093.377,"text":"這個我是覺得說因為你是要維持既有的人事的費用可是我們高雄地區有到那麼多人我記得你是11人要編3000多人事費大概2000萬左右11個人2000萬11個人是2000萬所以一個人200接近"},{"start":4101.178,"end":4120.846,"text":"還有一些外包的部分還有一些外包的人力對就是你主要的人力應該吃不到兩千吧大概一千多萬吧一可以跟我說明一下就是到底有多少人然後那些HR的人事費用吃掉多少因為當時我看這個數字是怪怪是台水是哪一個處哪一個處市長財務處嗎營業營業營業處其實營業處處長說明營業處長人事費用是兩千萬"},{"start":4130.936,"end":4144.788,"text":"然後這個還有一些折扣我們編的人士費用大概是2092萬啊幾人11個人11個人兩千很高耶一個人人薪100多萬他還要加成就是獎金這些全部都要"},{"start":4157.063,"end":4173.078,"text":"你把那個細目再給紅委員你把細目你把總數大概接近兩百了那你把整個支出想說一百六七百一百六七了對啊11個人10011個營業處林處長你先把詳細的資料再提供給紅委員那這個候委員"},{"start":4183.137,"end":4199.517,"text":"那個董事長請教一下齁你剛講這個觀光娛樂費用你們那個澄清湖現在移撥給高雄市政府嘛齁那澄清湖內部的這一些原有的這一些硬體設施未來的維護或者是更新是高雄市政府負責還是還是會回來到"},{"start":4201.488,"end":4226.256,"text":"這個台稅這邊去負責我簡單講就是你們那個澄清湖裡面有很多的這些休閒設施比如說那個烤肉區那個從我小的時候五歲六歲去澄清湖玩它就長那樣了到現在我不要講我現在幾歲啦到現在它還是長那樣一直沒有改變過"},{"start":4228.996,"end":4251.267,"text":"可以不要講那個數字出來嗎那所以我在想說請教一下就是這一些硬體的設施的未來的比如說更新是高雄市政府負責還是說你們現在既然有編了這個所謂的這個觀光娛樂的這些硬體的費用未來你們會去做一些修繕會去做一些更新"},{"start":4253.148,"end":4271.586,"text":"這個我們有跟高雄市政府大概我們有跟他們簽訂蓋管企業那既有的這些的設施原則上全部都委由他高雄市政府這邊去管理維護那如果說有他們要做比較既有的設施要拆除"},{"start":4272.427,"end":4287.232,"text":"有一些建物如果要拆除還要經過公司這邊的審查看他們要怎麼去做修繕大概有跟他們有這樣的一個簽約委員我再補充說明一下因為這個案子我有參與協調"},{"start":4289.152,"end":4302.603,"text":"就是因為我們認為澄清湖是高雄市民甚至是全國民眾一個好的休息地區可是因為台水公司長期以來因為財務的關係沒有辦法去改善這個部分所以跟高雄市政府來協助"},{"start":4304.685,"end":4332.145,"text":"那剛剛委員所槌尋的部分除了委託高雄市政府代管之外甚至高雄市政府也會投入資源那自從高雄市政府跟台水公司簽訂了這個所謂的這個管理大家合作的一個模式之後澄清湖已經逐漸的在做改善但是有一個部分仍然是由台水公司來負責是因為澄清湖也是一個重要的水源所以有關於供水水源的這個操作的設施當然這有"},{"start":4332.705,"end":4350.269,"text":"台水公司來負擔這是自我無庸置疑的那未來你剛剛講的烤肉區的部分其實高雄市政府他有一個整體的計畫他不但是湖區裡面包括外面他配合水跟環境的部分都已經在做改善了"},{"start":4352.742,"end":4364.333,"text":"好 那這個這筆3,271萬因為主要是人事費用跟他的硬體改善那是不是郭委員是不是就預兆列"},{"start":4367.583,"end":4385.346,"text":"我是覺得改成主決但是你要交給我那個人事費用的那個報告然後第二個應該明年就不會有這一筆項目了吧因為你都給對啊因為那些人應該是編到你們各個單位去了嘛對不對然後應該就沒有這一個因為這個都是高雄市你OT的嘛啊你們會有income嗎"},{"start":4388.819,"end":4390.36,"text":"好我們繼續處理固定資產建設改善擴充"},{"start":4418.055,"end":4439.146,"text":"31案陳昌明改組決議32案到44案我們一併處理好 其中32案李玉琳改組決議33案邱志偉改組決議34案測案36案鍾嘉斌改組決議37案陳昌明改組決議38案鍾嘉斌改組決議40案"},{"start":4446.741,"end":4462.957,"text":"鍾嘉斌改組決議41案邱志偉改組決議42案李玉琳改組決議其他的部分請柴水做綜合說明好那就35案35案的部分"},{"start":4464.707,"end":4478.067,"text":"我們台中到雲林區域水源調度管線的改善計畫因為這個計畫今年在推動上有一些前段工程涉及到公園用地的利用那這個"},{"start":4481.514,"end":4503.235,"text":"沙委這邊有特別要我們仔細跟地方多做一些溝通與民企社會共事所以本案避免過早投資要3.2.5億這個公司是遵照辦理另外四十三案呢四十三案的部分"},{"start":4508.974,"end":4530.432,"text":"43案就是公司的南台中淨水場這個供水工程的計畫編了9.772億因為近期國際的一個地緣政治及時影響今年又有地方的一個選舉相關入權申請跟行政協調期程會受干擾"},{"start":4532.774,"end":4550.523,"text":"查委這邊也特別就支援不要過度的投入所以要刪減今年度的預算失憶這個我們是遵照辦理好那這個44案部分我不要刪那麼多"},{"start":4552.074,"end":4574.724,"text":"檢疫到2000萬那個請李董事長說明一下好事實上是我們112年6月在新竹的鳳山溪因為有污染所以我們提了一個關西淨水場跟新埔配水中心的改善計畫那今年是第一年的執行變了6390幾萬那計畫是行政院剛"},{"start":4579.946,"end":4587.669,"text":"核下來 剛核下來那我們已經持續在加緊趕辦了那委員這邊要刪減這個計畫2000萬我們是原則同意來 那那個邱委員"},{"start":4603.014,"end":4621.189,"text":"來 謝謝謝謝主席因為我們正好討論到這個固定資產跟這個無自來水地區供水計畫的部分這應該也是董事長跟這個經濟部次長的專長我還是要請教一下無自來水地區的這個沿管工程其實這麼多年來你們的預算"},{"start":4621.949,"end":4650.398,"text":"一直是遠遠不足啦這個是中嘉賓委員的提案嘉賓委員跟我的選區或者是說我們有很多委員的選區在偏遠的山區其實都一直面臨到自來水普及率偏低的這樣的一個問題所以我們一直沒有辦法在這裡要求你們增加預算可是就經濟部跟自來水的立場上面你們在這個區塊上面的預算一直沒有辦法大幅的增加來符合現實狀況的"},{"start":4652.198,"end":4673.828,"text":"這些需求那我第二個要請教就是說我曾經跟這個賴次長討論過很多偏遠的山區你要把自來水管線從底下拉到上面去其實那個需要的工程費用是非常的龐大所以你們根本不可能去做嘛那在偏遠的山區設置簡易自來水塔"},{"start":4675.031,"end":4698.007,"text":"那這個簡易自來水塔是富有過濾功能 淨水功能的這樣的一個整體計畫什麼時候能夠開始做 或者是說更積極的做比如說在我的選區 在寶萊的山區 在桃園 茂林 納瑪夏等等地區或者是嘉賓的選區 在屏東的偏遠的山區等等"},{"start":4699.401,"end":4718.277,"text":"這樣的一個減溢自來水的計畫所需的經費會遠低於你的自來水沿管工程嘛對不對那我跟賴次長討論過很多次像這樣子的工程計畫什麼時候可以更具體更積極的來進行那這樣的相關的預算編列在哪裡可不可以請兩位"},{"start":4718.957,"end":4741.985,"text":"請市長先做說明 還是來 請你市長先做說明謝謝邱委員的這個議題吳志海水地區改善計畫大概是由水利署來編列公務預算一年大概15、6億左右那公司也在院裡面指導之下我們也稍微有籌編一部分 大概籌編大概"},{"start":4742.945,"end":4755.44,"text":"百分之十左右配合公務預算來執行那這幾年每一年經常變的預算扣打大概都是這些那我們這幾年真的是我們包括"},{"start":4758.152,"end":4782.41,"text":"中委員或前委員還有我們前院委員都一直在爭取那我們對於這幾個普及率比較低的縣市這幾年我們真的投入很多的一個嚴管的費用在進行嚴管那以快速的提升這個區域的普及率不過還是有很多更偏遠的區域的住戶沒有辦法去照顧到"},{"start":4783.311,"end":4812.131,"text":"那邱委員有特別講減溢自來水是不是跟用戶裡面去裝比較近水處理設備讓他們是可以這個確保他的一個水質那這個減水的部分 原則上水公司是仗在協助我們對於如果要沿管沒有辦法的部分我們評估沒有辦法我們就會建議水利署跟縣市政府是不是地方朝減水的方向來補助給住戶一些的近水設備"},{"start":4813.112,"end":4841.686,"text":"那公司是站在一個技術協助的立場不是由公司這邊來編這個淨水處理設備給住戶這一塊可能是不是你要不要說一下這個不是補助給住戶淨水設備是你們在做減水的時候其實旁邊就有一個淨水的這個濾水池同步來建置然後你那個出來的水其實基本上它的水質都會達到一定的標準不是你去補助給每一戶"},{"start":4843.926,"end":4860.871,"text":"請市長說明委員對這個事情知之甚詳那我們現在在推動改善偏遠地區或是無自來水的一個用戶就是趙委員剛剛指示的原則來辦理第一個部分我們希望減少台水公司的配合款"},{"start":4861.571,"end":4883.733,"text":"然後主要的這個任務在五期的計畫裡面由水利署來執行剛剛委員所說的淨水的設備特別是需要高度比較高而由下游往上游一直抽水上去這不具經濟效應的但是我們必須要去確保當地的民眾是有可以喝到"},{"start":4884.736,"end":4906.025,"text":"水質很好的這個水所以來協助不管是儲水設施或是淨水設備那這個預算是編在水利署那邊然後這個工作的話上個月委員也有垂詢到我們請水利署成立了輔導團隊於山林或是寶萊地區在實施這個工作今年就可以開展了"},{"start":4906.425,"end":4929.938,"text":"那因為這要改善民眾的一個使用甚至是到民眾的家戶裡面所以我們希望說透過跟地方政府的協作來增強這個所謂的無自來水供水的改善你說這個預算是編在水利署是編在經濟部裡面所以我們經濟部的預算也都還沒有審嘛這個洪昭偉可以拜託一下嗎因為現在剛好訊息來了"},{"start":4932.759,"end":4954.91,"text":"那這個禮拜我們又成立了應變小組那事實上前陣子大家都擔心供水是不足的所以我們期待說透過委員會的支持趕快把我們今年度的這個年度預算然後審議通過可以讓台水公司或是水利署加大力度趕快無所掛礙的去執行相關的工作"},{"start":4956.011,"end":4966.109,"text":"邱委員 那個紅衣站委員下禮拜應該會排啦先中加兵委員之後 那個政見站委員"},{"start":4967.096,"end":4996.076,"text":"好 那麼說到自來水我想邱委員都講到我們的心坎裡因為兩位邱委員都是因為我們在偏遠地區的自來水的需求目前全國普及率最落後的就是屏東那過去多次也是質詢包括經濟部報告水公司其實我還往上沉在上一屆我特別是交求主計總署剛剛董事長有提到水利署水利署前任的水利署長就在你旁邊就是我們現在的次長"},{"start":4997.719,"end":5014.65,"text":"所以水公司跟水利合的關係我是覺得在我們的經營思維要做根本的思考台灣過去我們在公用事業在舉世來比較做得非常成功不管是水還是電甚至原來的我們的公路運輸"},{"start":5015.47,"end":5032.885,"text":"大家聽到以前的客運都虧損累累其實客運業它就是兩等部隊黃金路段賺錢來貼補一些偏遠地區的路段因為人口密度的不同對客運業者來講那經營績效效益就會差別但是問題是台灣的公用事業都不能差別取價"},{"start":5033.886,"end":5062.635,"text":"所以水費是一樣的電費是一樣的客運的運費是一樣的那這台灣要去面對的是我們整個公用事業的思維要去想清楚以台電公司來講他已經要開始思考對於不同的用戶做不同的價格的取價那我們水公司目前其實最大的問題是你沒有辦法從可以賺錢的售水來貼補必須是服務偏鄉的售水電業現在拆成三分了發電"},{"start":5065.372,"end":5080.242,"text":"輸配電跟售電那水公司其實水源開發在產生水的部分是掌握在水地署的手中你們是負責管線和維運管線是最花錢的地方至於賣水如果你們末端的水價不能區別"},{"start":5080.942,"end":5106.379,"text":"那就永遠沒有辦法有足夠的收入來貼補我們偏遠地區的自來水普及那這個部分要請次長跟經濟部去跟我們的行政院去反映因為現在大水的用戶其實你看台積電它再生循環用水它可以投資的金額是很大的一度水對我們來講可能是幾毛錢幾塊錢它幾百塊錢買它都值得 為什麼 它賺得回來"},{"start":5107.179,"end":5134.214,"text":"但是我們民生的用水 民生的用電公用事業 水公司跟電力公司都不敢輕易的去調整這個費率是因為怎麼樣 我們要照顧普羅大眾我們家庭的生活的需求 沒有辦法那是我們的成本 我們沒辦法轉嫁但是對營業大戶來講是可以轉嫁的水公司過去在其實這經濟部有責任因為這些大的工業用戶的用水他不是透過水公司拿"},{"start":5135.171,"end":5158.525,"text":"他們可以賺錢的水啊 水公司不能賣啊水公司賣的都是不能賺錢的用戶啊所以這裡面經濟部要去思考一下如果說我們始終對於供水這個系統這些管線的維修還是要羊毛出在羊身上有水公司賣水給普羅大眾家庭用戶這個沒辦法漲水價的你現在看他們拿了錢來維護管線是沒有辦法做的"},{"start":5158.925,"end":5174.284,"text":"所以過去長年以來水利署為什麼要補貼水公司就是因為水利署他在整個經濟部的體制之下他供應這些大用戶的工業用水他的價格你們是沒有跟他要求要反映實際他們要承擔的社會成本"},{"start":5174.984,"end":5197.662,"text":"所以呢經濟部其實這些水公司的管線的維護跟資本支出是經濟部的責任是行政院的責任因為你們對於工業大戶提供給他這些水資源啊你們跟他收的費用是少又是又少根本不能反映他們在整個事業經營上他們的競爭力台積電可以賺那麼多錢可是他們付給水會是付多少錢"},{"start":5198.871,"end":5222.528,"text":"大家要去想這個問題所以我說如果這個觀念不改水公司他永遠沒有足夠的收入來維護他的管線所以你們在水源開發提供給工業用戶的時候水利組或經濟部不能再很便宜的提供給他了一定要水錢費要收回來給什麼給我們水公司做他的管線維護這樣子偏遠地區的自來水普及才會有收入啊"},{"start":5223.448,"end":5241.124,"text":"你們要倆同胞在倆大戶賺他的錢來補一般的家庭用戶如果這個觀念不改我們水公司永遠是苦哈哈台電公司現在已經在思考改變了為什麼要供應那麼便宜的電給這些用電大戶呢這個是對一般的民生家庭是不公平的"},{"start":5241.624,"end":5263.598,"text":"因為網路的電網的維護是最花錢的管線的維護也是最花錢的如果我們經濟部行政院不願意對這些大水利的大水的工業用戶收取較高的用水費我們水公司就沒有辦法有資本投資去維護這個管線給一般的家庭民生用水給他基本的民生用水所以我拜託這個我們的潛水力署長現在經濟部的次長"},{"start":5264.358,"end":5278.917,"text":"未來繼續在掌管這些相關的重要這個公共事業的時候呢一定要跟行政院說服這一點那第二個小問題呢就剛25案是不是改為主決議可不可以給我們看一下因為我很支持那個洪委員說的"},{"start":5280.017,"end":5308.93,"text":"智慧水表的問題台電公司在推智慧電表要推時間電價那智慧水表呢對我們來講的水的滲漏的管理是很有幫助的那麼我要看一下這個組決議內容有沒有表達26萬那個資料裡面有26萬資料你上面有我是說那個組決議對 資料你上面有放送過來謝謝那個中加兵委員講的我非常非常同意你看這個高雄市雖然普及率是90多兼95左右"},{"start":5309.77,"end":5320.881,"text":"但是偏鄉地區非都會區遠地這個數字不用說原住民區像這個政經財委員那麼下大概只有不到20%"},{"start":5322.722,"end":5339.102,"text":"那邱毅林委員的這個大旗山區我本席所在的這個大旗山區接管率也比這個平均值也還低大概八成左右那更遑論這個屏東縣屏東縣整體的普及率只有七成多一點點"},{"start":5340.307,"end":5364.813,"text":"那如果七成多是全縣那如果非都會區屏東縣比較南邊的地方他可能大概二三十趴所以這部分再請市長跟董事長多加注意這個城鄉的差距特別是高屏還有海南還有這個昭緯是這個洪昭緯也是高雄人那彰化應該好一點彰化應該好一點"},{"start":5376.102,"end":5394.377,"text":"非常謝謝為我們三期的鄉親爭取五次來水這個部分 事實上我一直認為自來水公司不應該編列這些配額款應該全部要有水利署"},{"start":5395.942,"end":5421.987,"text":"來編列因為這個是一個特殊的一個狀況之外的公司基本上就是營運所以這個部分除了當然要改善的就是怎麼樣去收更多的譬如說剛剛提到的那些科技業者他的水用得多但是水費一樣所以這個部分這是另外一個問題但是舊山區的因為十一住行"},{"start":5423.348,"end":5434.509,"text":"食 衣住水是基本的飲用水就是食很重要的所以也跟身體的健康"},{"start":5435.14,"end":5457.525,"text":"都有關係所以這個部分這個水利署應該要積極經濟部要積極的跟行政院主計總署來爭取你們的公務預算應該要增加針對無論是自來水的沿管或尤其是尤其是山區的無自來水的這些設施設備應該要積極的爭取"},{"start":5460.706,"end":5462.827,"text":"有關於資金資產建設改良擴充從三十二案到四十一案"},{"start":5486.977,"end":5500.849,"text":"到這個44案 檢列6.7億 檢列6.7億好 所以45案 45案 紅衣相委員提案是不是先請台水做說明來 請台水"},{"start":5503.442,"end":5525.216,"text":"好 謝謝洪昭偉提45案裡面所講的就公司編的房屋建築預算有15.3億那委員認為公司編的這些建築及房屋及建築的費用應該要把這些經費多放在"},{"start":5526.296,"end":5546.583,"text":"影響供水安全的地底下管線跟進水設備更新而非投入地面上的形成建築了那另外就是部分的這個場站是不是有一些辦公廳有閒置的一個情況那希望能夠這個"},{"start":5548.504,"end":5564.069,"text":"把這些房屋建築的經費要凍結五千萬那其實我跟委員這邊做說明就是說公司在前層有很多的服務祭典各營運所這些營運所早期有都是由水廠"},{"start":5565.329,"end":5589.269,"text":"移轉過來了這些建築大概都有四五十年的辦公廳都比較老舊那辦公廳裡面屋頂也漏水耐震公共安全都不足而且部分建築也沒有無障礙或友善的環境所以我們編的這些預算有部分要去做一些修繕之外另外有一些"},{"start":5590.89,"end":5608.042,"text":"確實沒有辦法去做修繕我們也編的預算來做整個改建那另外我們像屏東七處在114年成立這個屏東七處還跟台電租借這個倉庫做我們七處的辦公廳那我們就是編這個預算要來改建"},{"start":5616.027,"end":5633.62,"text":"這有平空氣庫的一個辦公大樓那總數的辦公大樓也是延續性的計畫已經蓋了三四年了我們今年也變了六七億那另外我們還有一些在進水廠包括後溢進水廠的這個操作樓或是說我們"},{"start":5636.568,"end":5654.838,"text":"這個三坑抽水站的這個操作樓都要持續來做一些興建所以這些的費用確實也是有需要那可請委員能夠大力的支持來 黃議長委員我稍微說明一下因為這個"},{"start":5658.644,"end":5674.241,"text":"審計部在做這些東西的時候他只是希望說你們針對如果有一些是可以可以耐震補強的這個就持續用而不是說整個要重建這樣子所以這個你們可能還是再給我"},{"start":5675.242,"end":5696.048,"text":"我可以動少一點但是你還是要給我報告因為這個就是你們行政的一個建築的維修的一個經費因為你現在這個溢價的金額是有點高然後剛剛39案因為邱昭文沒有給我的報告件請補充39案的話我是希望因為剛剛我不曉得那個決議內容會什麼就是說"},{"start":5698.743,"end":5722.257,"text":"我問上我是覺得因為漏水率啊因為我們很多次的委員都在問這些問題啊所以那個漏水率到底年年我們投入這麼多的經費那你怎麼去改善因為你現在那個漏水率還是還是有降啊但是降的幅度不高啊所以我覺得這個在上面你的這一個漏水率怎麼達到這樣子的一個"},{"start":5724.266,"end":5746.621,"text":"就是一個顯著的一個改善這樣因為很久了嘛所以我們經常在漏水但有些是施工的問題啦這個我想這個在你們在如果是凍結然後書面報告請他再補充一下到底怎麼會去改善我覺得這個施工凍結讓你們的漏水力能夠有更精進的作為我們的39案是這樣子的等一下我一起處理那中山議員"},{"start":5747.521,"end":5763.756,"text":"好 那麼我就呼應我們洪委員的39案跟45案現在講39案啦其實可能剛剛洪委員一直說改成組決議但是書面報告包含這個漏水率的一些實況我覺得這是不夠 動喔 你知道動喔我是覺得只是漏水率的現況不夠啦"},{"start":5765.538,"end":5794.537,"text":"一個窮人家喔資產在怎麼調查還是窮啊他也不會有錢起來啦那漏水率的問題不是說知道他漏水率有多嚴重是有沒有資金去改善的問題啦所以我是覺得這個漏水率比較消極只是了解說漏水率的改善那其實我知道改善是相當有限因為巧婦南北五米之炊他現在呢單單是入不敷出的情況之下你叫自來水公司再做出一些資本投資啊是不可能的事情所以別人知道這樣漏啦但是沒幾天要補啦"},{"start":5795.618,"end":5822.885,"text":"真的是非常可憐的事情啦所以我是覺得水公司不是只是消極的對於漏水率的現況做描述而已要對於根本解決需要多少資本投資要一個徹底的一個大的一個需求出來那我們看看能不能去爭取行政院這個國發會中長城的計畫來加以改善這個我是覺得呢要補充這個說明那當然45案的部分我是傾向跟洪委員比較稍微不同啦"},{"start":5823.385,"end":5851.683,"text":"因為剛剛水公司講到我們的新函里這個水公司屏東區處那個絕對不是什麼豪奢那個是台電公司不要的材料股的倉庫然後剛好因為我家住附近我就看到說那很閒置剛好有一天跟我們水公司那時候是區區處在提到說他們在找在屏東設新的區處我說你們跟台電商量一下他們那個地方目前閒置沒有在用"},{"start":5852.463,"end":5877.265,"text":"那個地方是倉庫那個地方不是辦公樓所以我們看到水公司成立了屏東區住之後他們是在倉庫的空間辦公所以我是覺得這個可能每個地區不一樣但我看到的地方以水公司在屏東的區住絕對沒有豪奢的情況可言而且他們迫切的需要把一個比較具有歷史感的營運區蓋起來因為他們現在選的地方"},{"start":5879.907,"end":5907.029,"text":"是在可以稱為工業文明遺址的在日治時期就興建的大概1920年代就興建完成的一個淨水廠那個已經可以列入文化資產保存的地方那你們要在那裡設區數我本來是覺得說那個地方應該是很漂亮的園區應該是資產保存結果你們做營業區既然要做也就做了但是你們錢要花下去把那個地方的維持好"},{"start":5907.549,"end":5921.805,"text":"不要說硬肉糾結就蓋一個很醜陋的辦公大樓因為畢竟那個是文化資產的所在地希望你們水公司要慎重地去思考處理 以上建議好 謝謝孟委員周委員 就是我們大家很了解水公司現在的營運的情況"},{"start":5923.57,"end":5936.994,"text":"那也拜託你不要再提那個文化資產了因為這樣子它可能建造成本又要更貴我們都沒有錢去補這個漏水率了那也要想辦法去就是說國發會還有經濟部能夠部本部能夠協助說怎麼樣提出"},{"start":5943.296,"end":5967.21,"text":"計畫來改善全台的漏水率這個部分我們應該先著重在民生需求最重要的部分來改善也希望說還是說我們做一個決議請經濟部能夠提出怎麼樣改善資本投訴計畫怎麼改善全台漏水率相關的計畫我們來檢討這個比較重要"},{"start":5970.132,"end":5996.305,"text":"謝委員跟鍾委員都所言甚是都各有側重不管是從文資保存或者是從這個落水力改善但落水力改善根本的做法你要增加資本投入不然你每年落水你這樣你繞多少次都是因為落水那不然我就改善一年過一年但是這部分市長這可能經濟部要協助水公司你不用答覆啦你不用答覆啦我也跟你提醒說"},{"start":5997.558,"end":6007.476,"text":"經濟部有責任協助台水增加多點預算跟行政院爭取然後增加這個資本投出資本建設然後改善漏水率好"},{"start":6009.92,"end":6026.687,"text":"這個剛剛漏水利益我們大家都很重視我們是著動著動提出完整的這個未來的資本投入的改善計畫以及漏水利益如何去降低漏水利益提出一個完整的報告所以從31案到44案我們這個減利6億7千萬凍結200萬"},{"start":6039.178,"end":6046.113,"text":"我剛剛已經宣讀完了我是重新再宣讀一次我檢疫那個是43跟那個"},{"start":6047.652,"end":6075.219,"text":"剛剛都已經說明完了然後檢列6.7億以及凍結200萬提出書面200萬是要針對整個落水率改善資本建設投資 落水率的計畫提出一個完整的計畫使得兩週之內提出書面報告 使得動之要客戶自營調整主決議的部分45萬一樣就是45萬包含在裡面 洪委員就是凍200萬"},{"start":6077.725,"end":6098.603,"text":"好 四十六案 主決議遵照辦理來 遭案通過 四十七案遵照辦理遭案通過 四十八案遵照辦理遭案通過 四十九案遵照辦理遭案通過 五十案遵照辦理遭案通過 五十一案遵照辦理遭案通過 五十二案遵照辦理遭案通過 五十四案遵照辦理遭案通過 五十五案"},{"start":6101.041,"end":6120.815,"text":"遵照辦理 照案通過56案遵照辦理 照案通過57案遵照辦理 照案通過58案遵照辦理 照案通過59案遵照辦理 照案通過60案遵照辦理 照案通過61案遵照辦理 照案通過63案遵照辦理 照案通過64案遵照辦理 照案通過65案遵照辦理 照案通過66案遵照辦理 照案通過67案"},{"start":6125.778,"end":6132.163,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":6154.699,"end":6173.325,"text":"捐贈辦理 照案通過83案 捐贈辦理照案通過84案 捐贈辦理 照案通過85案 捐贈辦理 照案通過86案 捐贈辦理好 照案通過好來自來水公司已經審訊完畢那"},{"start":6177.19,"end":6204.463,"text":"深海水公司審訊完畢之後是不是我們今天列席的消防組管人員可以先行離席27案的主決議先給我好不好來 27案的主決議再給這個好 我們現在休息這個五分鐘五分鐘喔必要時延長一分鐘五分鐘喔 休息五分鐘我們換場一下"},{"start":6211.036,"end":6217.461,"text":"滾屍的屍長 屍長要找我嗎來來來 直接來直接說 來 屍長 坐我昨天有請那個海燕過來 稍等來來來 坐這邊好了"},{"start":6229.887,"end":6235.097,"text":"22我加了這一個去改善一下你們的ERP跟物料傳統系統的效能OK 謝謝謝謝你們"},{"start":6263.462,"end":6263.482,"text":"嗯"},{"start":6276.154,"end":6279.358,"text":"二十六二十六三長三長四個金龍 黃安祥 邱惠祿"},{"start":6299.838,"end":6307.822,"text":"那當然,他也有,他也有,他也有,他也有,他也有啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦啦"},{"start":6323.95,"end":6329.833,"text":"如果是要給我買的話,我可以借幾個槍位我可以借幾個槍位,但這槍位我沒有關係的那兩隻兩隻那兩隻兩隻,我給你購入,你後面"},{"start":6336.608,"end":6353.483,"text":"我現在要跟你說就是這間仲裁一定出來就叫這間仲裁的結果去執行你不可以說我仲裁出來之後你要跟人家寫這個我告訴你你扣種資數的話所有的利息錢還要納稅人出你們為什麼要去聽那個種資數因為你的確定是無罪推定"},{"start":6364.092,"end":6381.066,"text":"這是刑法寫得很清楚不是 我覺得你們這樣子不對你去提側重 利息錢要多少錢你的工程 現在人家已經完工這麼久工程費已經快點 所以重採出來你現在提側重不是算去種樹種 側在人家拖個三年期"},{"start":6389.012,"end":6404.497,"text":"你提撤重了當然就怎麼會你提撤重了就是重新訴訟了那是另外的他跟這個不一樣你們如果是博弈事業這樣子出這個案子真的很糟糕你跟他的刑事案件那個是另外的你現在跟你談的是說這一件仲裁案"},{"start":6415.96,"end":6431.727,"text":"仲裁已經判下來當然是大家要去申請仲裁的請我願大家合意同意仲裁去處理仲裁處理下來之後你反而說你覺得仲裁不公平所以你要測重"},{"start":6433.408,"end":6447.926,"text":"那當時人家為什麼要去跟你仲裁勒而且你們是公務單位好 你去提側重那你的利息錢是要照付喔你自己要照付喔那現在我是無所謂因為我真的進那麼大牢"},{"start":6451.369,"end":6461.875,"text":"我看你這沒道理啦你們這個沒道理啦你這個我不會指使你們來你來跟我說明這個我聽不下去啦你這叫做尼奧?要跟歐盟一樣的他一樣的 已經因為仲裁 改打六指了"},{"start":6470.439,"end":6494.538,"text":"你仲裁出來的金額跟他當時要跟你們簽款的仲裁已經被打得掉了對不對 人家也吞下去這個仲裁對他也不公平啊正常來說對他公平就是他跟你請求多少的工程款才有判若依啊但是這個仲裁結果對他也不公平啊等於兩邊各打50大板嘛那你再跟他說你要我撤仲"},{"start":6496.32,"end":6497.881,"text":"請列席官就座"},{"start":6526.84,"end":6553.008,"text":"好 我們繼續開會我們現在繼續進行台灣中緣油股份有限公司預算的處理那這個在進行預算處理之前我先很快的介紹今天列席的中緣油公司的主管人員因為有一些是新任的還不是那麼熟悉那我來先介紹一下中緣油股份有限公司方正恩董事長好 謝謝張銘總經理"},{"start":6557.76,"end":6563.903,"text":"羅伯同副總黃榮毅副總林柯盧副總攤產事業部曾繼中執行長電視事業部紀純厚執行長"},{"start":6579.758,"end":6594.543,"text":"有秉行銷事業部 邱隨興 執行長謝謝天然氣事業部 李希文 執行長謝謝總工程師事 何志清 總論事謝謝能力資源處 張景平 處長謝謝財務處 李英新 處長謝謝資訊處 李豐洲 處長謝謝工業安全衛生處 黃章冠 處長謝謝"},{"start":6611.005,"end":6636.126,"text":"環境保護及生態保育處 處長沒有來 要跟召委請假這是會議的規則 請同仁注意一下 即使請貴公司的預算相關主管人員一定要到 除非有特別原因要跟召委請假 下不為例"},{"start":6637.645,"end":6664.667,"text":"所以工業環境保護跟生態保護署是侯善寧副署長 儲備署黃素晨副署長那處長也沒來我不以置評來 企業署王一平署長"},{"start":6667.046,"end":6691.369,"text":"謝謝 轉投資事業署 梁晶晶署長謝謝 採購署 陳婉如署長謝謝 資產營運管理署 陳奕英署長謝謝 液化天然氣工程署 康文正署長謝謝 公務威衛署 陸曹龍署長好 謝謝 會計署 邱子文署長好"},{"start":6692.608,"end":6720.654,"text":"我們繼續進行這個臺灣中央公司的預算協商好 先處理第一案到第三案第一案 陳昌明改組決議第二案 邱志偉改組決議第三案 邱怡穎改組決議第四案 賴若龍改組決議第五案 邱志偉改組決議第六案 賴若龍改組決議第七案 陳昌明改組決議第八案 賴若龍改組決議"},{"start":6721.823,"end":6748.681,"text":"第九案 鄭振全改組局 接著處理一頁總支出的部分一頁總支出的部分 從第十案到第十案三案一起處理有薛英鴻 都是薛英鴻委員提案 薛委員您要補助說明還是指中郵先做說明好 請中郵方董事長主席委員大家早"},{"start":6750.002,"end":6753.404,"text":"就謝委員所提到11、12案是針對服務費用總預算是511億這裡面提出了三個凍結案"},{"start":6762.489,"end":6781.448,"text":"那麼主要的針點就是希望就是在我們海域探勘費用執行率會不會偏低同時在營運成本率的部分能不能提升另外在溫室氣體排放的部分也要去加強主要我想這三個議題那我分別說明一下"},{"start":6782.729,"end":6794.84,"text":"服務費用我們主要是用在照顧弱勢團體在勞務發包的費用以及國外礦區生產操作所需要的費用還有水電費、設備維修管線檢測"},{"start":6798.503,"end":6823.067,"text":"貨物、旅運費等等必要的這些工作了那麼現在已經執行到年終了所以呢這些相關的費用就是必須要去進行的所以懇請委員支持那麼我想委員所關心的第一個就是有關碳勘的部分那麼碳勘的部分的話我們今年是打算主要的重點是在台西盆地有關這個碳封存所需要"},{"start":6823.927,"end":6838.058,"text":"的一些前置作業包括了監測包括了專警以及模擬等等這些相關的作業是目前已經在執行當中的第二個就是有關營運成本率的部分"},{"start":6838.658,"end":6864.167,"text":"我想我也了解我們公司的營運成本主要是在油跟氣本身的進口的一個成本那這個成本嚴格講是在隨著國際的情勢的去變化而產生有所不同所以在營運成本裡我們能夠去努力的空間事實上並不是很大不過我們都一直在持續的努力去"},{"start":6864.867,"end":6886.707,"text":"去進行那麼至於溫室氣體的部分那麼溫室氣體的排放的話對於公司來講我們有兩個面向必須考慮第一個就是對於國內的能源供應那麼以及在減碳的目標上這兩個面向我們都必須要同時注意那我們從94年為基準年來看的話"},{"start":6887.708,"end":6895.454,"text":"我們已經排放量從1158萬噸降到113年的大約是700萬噸事實上減幅已經相當的大了那麼今年115年我們也規劃了推動67項的一個減碳措施那目標今年減碳的成效是5.4萬噸那麼每個月都會追蹤這個減碳的一個成效以上做這個說明"},{"start":6914.824,"end":6921.549,"text":"好 這個謝方董事長針對第10案到12案 謝法務委員提案做了說明 那謝法務委員繼續詢問"},{"start":6924.725,"end":6951.647,"text":"他們其實有來跟我講過了那可是因為在很多的不管是探勘還有其他的相關的方面那目前的進度其實並沒有非常的好那我也希望說怎麼樣子就是說不管是探封存以及其他的進度那怎麼樣增加那是不是我們三岸就合併動多少這樣子好不好"},{"start":6952.407,"end":6973.396,"text":"因為中友現在財務也不是那麼好現在中友一直想要這個增資那行政院還沒通過我們也積極在幫你們爭取能夠讓你們順利增資改善財務的狀況那現在這個何牧師又瘋了好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好"},{"start":6979.537,"end":7000.505,"text":"第14案 陳廷飛改組決議15案 邱志偉改組決議第16案 陳昌明改組決議現在處理第17案到第26案其中第18案 鄭振前改組決議19案 陳昌明改組決議22案 邱志偉改組決議24案 呂毅霖改組決議25案 鍾嘉斌等改組決議26案 鍾嘉斌 吳立華改組決議"},{"start":7008.854,"end":7027.056,"text":"16案也改組決議好 那其他部分有楊秋瑩委員是不是也有改組決議呢沒有 那我們有沒有提案委員要做一個說明來 楊秋瑩委員"},{"start":7029.579,"end":7048.007,"text":"謝謝主席這個關於碳勘的這個部分我想藉由今天預算審查的機會我想要給我們碳採事業部的同仁要給他們一些鼓勵碳勘其實是一個非常長久但是非常辛苦但你永遠不會知道它到底會不會有成果的工作所以"},{"start":7048.847,"end":7074.579,"text":"在碳採這個不管是石油或者是天然氣的部分我想碳採事業部的同仁都非常的辛苦那過去我們很長遠的投資包括像查德像印尼等等這些地方目前稍稍有看到一些成果跟進度所以我想應該要給中油更多的鼓勵那你們現在現行在計劃當中或者是在進行當中的這些碳採"},{"start":7075.419,"end":7098.294,"text":"包括天然氣的部分我希望這個中有能夠持續對於這些計畫進行支持我想現在的這個能源的問題其實是我們應該要非常去積極去面對的多元的能源的來源任性能源的這些措施我想這個也是中有責無旁貸的責任所以在這邊要給予你們嘉獎"},{"start":7099.435,"end":7127.65,"text":"我也期待這個委員們是不是這個探勘的費用的部分是不是能夠免於凍結應該給予他們更多的支持 謝謝來 洪議員委員那個我的提案是23那我主要的話就是說因為針對你們這個海外探勘的部分那因為的話呢這個包含北美地區那時候是看說是阿拉斯加的投資看採的費用"},{"start":7128.53,"end":7147.24,"text":"那因为现在有跟你们做一些的沟通的说明因为美方目前还没有把FIT的相关的报告送到中游来所以你们可能也还没办法具体评估这个投资的事宜那我实在是想因为我这边是减1000万栋"},{"start":7149.901,"end":7169.988,"text":"凍結3億我是改動1000萬但是我希望就是你要提的報告是說在我們的這個所有的海外的這些的探勘這些所有的點你過去這幾個探勘點那我們花多少錢了然後目前探勘的成果就是效益如何就是說"},{"start":7170.828,"end":7192.716,"text":"我們經營一個公司嘛當然是支持你探勘啊等於探勘假設成功率或是說回收ROI的報酬率太低那我們不是不支持你探勘喔是你可能之前的探勘的評估啊或者是這些的情報的蒐集或者是這種預判是失準的你說說你的職能"},{"start":7193.776,"end":7219.281,"text":"這公司在這一塊的職能是有備要強化的所以我希望是看到這樣子的一個報告然後另外的話第二個要求就是說當美方在阿拉斯加提出這個FID的投資文件的時候那你們應該跟我們經濟委員會來做這樣子的專案報告的說明因為這樣我們才能夠知道說你針對這樣子的一個投資案啊到之後將來是多久會回收"},{"start":7220.021,"end":7244.178,"text":"因為現在還沒有收到我清楚那收到之後我希望是有這樣子的一個報告的承諾好不好OK好那我們就進來處理從第17案到27案27案也是改成組決議那因為這個屬於探勘的這個相關的預算那剛剛邱映穎委員的這個說明我本席也是非常同意我們應該給予這個"},{"start":7246.119,"end":7263.717,"text":"中緣公司這方面的預算 他們預算的支持所以我是不是經營委員會是不是著以凍結請他們提出更精進的相關作為包括剛剛所委員所推行的各項目請你們提出書面報告那我們是不是著動300萬"},{"start":7266.961,"end":7270.763,"text":"謝謝我們繼續處理28案到31案28案的部分 鍾嘉賓 吳立懷委員所提改成組決議"},{"start":7293.058,"end":7303.844,"text":"三十案 曾昌明改組決議 三十一案 余麗玲改組決議還現在處理二十九案 洪耀祥委員是不是先請中共組織公司 請方董事長先做說明"},{"start":7305.714,"end":7334.654,"text":"謝謝委員指教那麼洪委員提到有關這個煤煙業務宣導會這個項目我們編列是5158萬那麼我想委員所期許的就是希望這些煤煙政策宣導能夠效果能夠更好我想目的是這樣子那就這個本項的業務來講那麼中油公司在進行能源轉型以及淨零轉型這部分"},{"start":7335.374,"end":7351.296,"text":"這是全民的共識要繼續往前走問題就是說用什麼樣一個方式能夠達到最好的一個效果能夠對這個預算的使用達到最佳的一個效果"},{"start":7351.936,"end":7368.162,"text":"我想這個部分我們可以繼續的討論那麼洪委員我想你是這方面的一個專業專家也可以跟洪委員來這邊請教請益那如何把這個事情做好但是所編的預算也懇請委員能夠支持"},{"start":7370.779,"end":7396.694,"text":"好因為我跟你們在溝通或者是這個討論的時候就是說你們對這個媒體政策跟優優宣導費算編的五千多萬但是我覺得就是那個有一個什麼中有隱層那個效益是不是不是很好中有底層有一個這樣子的一個項目對不對"},{"start":7400.482,"end":7403.545,"text":"掛在我們的官網中原影城"},{"start":7406.608,"end":7435.554,"text":"問您說影城啊我懂就是說在我們的官網上有一個中有影城就是把我們一些做的這個形象形象廣告呢都把放在上面那委員提到就是說這個點閱率偏低啦我想大概這樣這個部分我想形象廣告有這個需要啦那麼只是說如何讓這個形象廣告呢能夠讓社會大眾呢更多人能夠看到這樣一個形象廣告這個部分我們可以去做檢討"},{"start":7438.292,"end":7461.519,"text":"我的建議還是先我當時列的是減1000動2000但我還是覺得你還是要凍結但凍結的數目等一下我們再討論好不好因為我覺得這種東西已經是很久了他不是說去年才有什麼APP或什麼這些東西的宣傳的手法才出現都這麼久"},{"start":7463.834,"end":7468.923,"text":"那每次看這些國營事業的這些行銷的費用也都覺得"},{"start":7470.863,"end":7495.961,"text":"那如果花的沒什麼效果乾脆就賣開但也不是說阻止你做行銷啦就是說要嘛就是所托非人要嘛就是你自己的那個心態是什麼樣不知道所托也要很清楚要公開招標要非常的慎重所以我還是建議這個績效的問題所以大概我還是建議凍結好那我們這個案這個沒訊費就凍結300萬"},{"start":7500.855,"end":7521.406,"text":"是這個兩週之內提出書面報告是是動之好 繼續處理第三十案三十案 陳昌平改組決議三十一案剛剛已經宣讀過了 李玉璇改組決議三十二案部分陳昌平改組決議三十三案 洪玉祥委員提案事不宜遲 請眾議員方董事長先做說明"},{"start":7523.449,"end":7542.547,"text":"我想報告洪委員其實這個項目也是跟剛剛所提的內容大約是差不多不過我想在委員提案裡面特別提到有關中油LOGO本身這個事項那我也做個說明中油公司80年了"},{"start":7544.58,"end":7568.377,"text":"所以在經營的業務上事實上每一個階段都會有不同的改變那麼現階段來講的話就是在能源轉型的部分需要去變成一個重點那隨著這樣一個轉型所以在公司的logo上形象的顯示上當然我想需要去研究做一些改變改善是有這個需要"},{"start":7569.974,"end":7595.928,"text":"譬如說像國外的公司來講BPBP它以前叫British Petroleum那後來因為能源上的一些問題它現在改成叫Beyond Petroleum或者是KataKata能源公司它以前叫QP也就是Kata Petroleum那現在因為能源的問題也改成Kata Energy所以諸如此類在國際間事實上很多的公司也做這樣一個調整"},{"start":7597.629,"end":7615.059,"text":"那當然因應這樣一個變化,中央公司呢需要去做一些研究,是不是要去調整當然我想這個是有這個需要不過就這個案子本身呢我們是在114年就做整個一個結束最後的一個決定呢就是因為在"},{"start":7616.94,"end":7632.213,"text":"公司裡面的內部還有我們公司退休的一些老遊人必須要做一些深入的研究大家要有達成共識要不要改 改成什麼樣子這部分是還沒有達成共識的同時在當時我們的財務狀況一直在虧損的狀態下也是不好"},{"start":7638.158,"end":7651.973,"text":"所以在114年我們就決定就緩半了沒有再繼續下去至於以後要不要去做調整我想那可能是以後的事情再來做進一步的研討目前是緩半的情形"},{"start":7653.069,"end":7679.535,"text":"因為當時我們會提這一個提案的話當然就跟董事長講的一樣主要就是聶永珍一案這樣子一路一路爆出來之後那當然中郵大致上我們也去有做一個這樣子的一個請你們提供一些這樣的結案的報告但是你們有誠意啦就是算有提供這個正確詳細的回覆那我們也明白你當時所遭遇的這個"},{"start":7682.217,"end":7694.095,"text":"這個壓力另外我們也去問了經濟部諮詢所回覆的資料那麼這個回覆資料蠻有趣的我只是要一個圖片而已"},{"start":7695.529,"end":7710.278,"text":"就聶永禎設計的綜合圖片然後可以用密件處理保密時間到116年12月31號這匪夷所思啊沒有那個logo這樣而已然後我就覺得說 哇"},{"start":7711.639,"end":7731.488,"text":"是不是因為那時候是你們的解釋可能就是說這個是有商標還是什麼的啦可能啦但我不知道但我覺得這個商標跟你公文密件也沒什麼關係商標是應該去制裁局對不對去做商標局的這個申請沒有我是覺得說這個東西我們都支持我剛剛也認同你的說法"},{"start":7732.068,"end":7756.87,"text":"但是如果你要改Logo 改形象那是很大的工程但是你應該是你的BP就是Business的一個Process就是我們講Business Process Re-Engineering你要走在前面嘛就你的商業改造 你的模型改造或者是你的新事業的發展你要先有這個大的紅圖Picture嘛For example 舉例來講就是說我現在是有"},{"start":7757.791,"end":7781.684,"text":"那我現在可能是要有電或儲能對不對可能因應不管是自動車或者是什麼樣子的東西那因為你都是提供Energy的所以你可能不叫做All Year你可能是Energy的這樣子的一個Supplier這樣子的一個公司的那這個可以啊因為你是有個BP然後大家都同意的要往那個方向去走的做一個轉型"},{"start":7783.085,"end":7808.995,"text":"那這個時候當然我們會配合可是現在看起來就比較不是這樣子但我也明白你的痛苦所以在這個地方我是希望說以後這種東西就是公開透明就好因為我覺得改商標就改商標對不對也沒有什麼大不了的事情也不需要說用到這個方面我的建議是這樣子好不好就是因為你們這個費用也是OK的然後呢而且跟一些的"},{"start":7809.595,"end":7829.446,"text":"民間的一些的選服啊或者是一些的一些的活動啊我覺得是很大的關係我這個就改組決議啦好不好就說以後就不要有這樣的事情就好好謝謝洪委員33案改組決議繼續34案楊全英改組決議35案楊全英改組決議"},{"start":7832.467,"end":7854.612,"text":"据说36到38 其中37 李玉玲改组决议38也是洪委员提案 是不是请钟友先做说明这个呢 也是主要是我想这个洪委员关心的就是地热的发展"},{"start":7856.121,"end":7879.946,"text":"那麼我想洪委員也了解地熱發展事實上它要經過相當的一個前置的作業地底下的東西呢地面上可以去測勘去掌握地面下的情形但是最終呢還是要實際把這個井打下去以後才知道說是不是如預期那個樣子"},{"start":7881.677,"end":7899.526,"text":"所以在這個費用的編列上我們是需要在地熱的發展上前期要去編列一些專業的服務費用同時對於未來如果要去打井的時候我們也希望能引進國外的一些專業的技術所謂的EGS、AGS"},{"start":7902.628,"end":7919.143,"text":"水劣這些技術把它引進到台灣來從而在這些技術能夠在我們國內能夠深耕那麼對於國內的一個地的發展能夠更廣泛的展開所以希望就是說委員也能夠支持這樣一個預算的編列"},{"start":7920.604,"end":7948.653,"text":"請胡議長委員我的意思是這樣子就是說因為通常我們在做這種所謂的專業的服務當然就是在研發的經費裡面不管你是引經或者是什麼東西我們都希望是看到是它有未來的就是我研發完或者是我consult完的話對不對我們去再做後續的這個不管是這個探勘或者是打井這些東西是希望是有獲得效益的"},{"start":7949.213,"end":7964.689,"text":"現在就是說我們的這個地熱的效益就是你還是要去追蹤掌握啦這是第一塊第二塊我是覺得就是說因為那時候跟你們溝通的時候因為你們是增強型的這個地熱探勘嘛"},{"start":7965.458,"end":7984.674,"text":"那這個東西在國外的研究報告就是你如果在平常的山區大概還好啦就比較人煙稀少但有一些比較靠近因為它會誘發這個地震的風險那我覺得這一點呢你們還是要假設你採取這樣的技術再做這樣子的地熱探勘"},{"start":7985.376,"end":8001.07,"text":"我覺得在你們的官網上面你要公開去做說明因為我覺得你不要一旦真的爆開然後真的又發地震雖然國外研究報告也是有這樣子的方式但是我是覺得說你不能排除它的可能性"},{"start":8001.73,"end":8030.071,"text":"那你既然都說啊不會啊那個發熱機率很低那如果照你這樣講就是那你就公開就是所謂公開意思就是說讓大家有知的權利這樣就好因為你不能說沒有我也不能說你一定有會誘發地震但是它就是有potential就是有這個可能性所以我覺得是這樣子然後另外就是說因為你在這個研究方案不是說全然只有地熱而已啦所以我是希望說我可以不用動那麼多"},{"start":8031.132,"end":8059.255,"text":"那還是要給我一個就是說你在這個專業服務研究到底是研究哪些方面然後你研究完之後又要落實到後面哪些被你採用嘛對不對不管你是在地面碳化或是在其他能源的改進上面這給我們一個書面報告這樣子好那我是今天說我就動你500萬這樣子就好了好不好好然後你就交個書面報告給我針對我剛剛的疑惑好這個宏偉銀禮會議是大家的疑惑"},{"start":8062.6,"end":8081.015,"text":"38案 凍結500萬提出 一個 兩週內提出書面報告的時候 死的凍製39萬 主席這個分別是給委員都有嗎 都有都有 因為我也很關心地熱的探勘本來是想說改成主角 但是如果方委員說還是要凍的話凍也 他的報告也是對所有委員會 對委員會39萬改組決議 謝謝方委員提案改組決議"},{"start":8090.948,"end":8102.242,"text":"三十 四十一案四十 先處理四十案 四十案營業外備用黃委員是不是先請縱由方董先做說明"},{"start":8104.191,"end":8121.509,"text":"侯委員關心就是115年所編列的利息費用變成137億我想報告就是說各位也了解公社其實借款是蠻大一個金額就以去年來講我們的利息實際支出是115億"},{"start":8124.844,"end":8149.433,"text":"那麼今年在這個市場借款的利率其實是有增加的一個情形那麼同時在這個中東情勢的情況下我們高成本進口的油、天然氣就陸陸續續要進來這些都要付款都需要有現金那麼這些利息支出來講的話今年會比去年還會增加"},{"start":8150.633,"end":8165.665,"text":"所以所編列的137億應該是蠻合時的去編列當然委員也關心就是說你作為公司你的財務狀況你要怎麼去改善總不能在未來利息支出這麼高"},{"start":8167.526,"end":8181.594,"text":"那就是我跟委員報告就是目前的幾個做法有關增補預算以及增資的部分目前都是在行政院這邊來進行推動當中這樣做以上說明"},{"start":8183.505,"end":8197.904,"text":"請侯議長委員我為什麼會提這個案子其實就是讓你在公開場合說明你真的也算可憐這家公司背負著政府很多政策那這個政策有一些東西"},{"start":8199.105,"end":8217.357,"text":"要怎麼講 比如說這個比如說天然氣或者是戰事這些的發生那因為現在這裡頭的話你就上次我們講我覺得這個是結構性的問題就你的question到底是你們團隊經營績效不好還是政策cover的"},{"start":8218.357,"end":8236.262,"text":"你必須要cover因為我是國營事業所以我政策上要去cover這個政府不管是在民生的補貼或者是這些油電價天然氣的補貼我的建議是說可以誠實的在財報或者是在這頁當中去把它或者財報不用呈現來你自己的分析報告"},{"start":8237.335,"end":8264.008,"text":"那這樣我們才會知道說你自己這邊的經營績效好或不好那這樣子假設在你扣除掉政策支持的這一些的成本的費用之外剩下是在你們可以控制經營績效的範疇之內那績效真的是顯著的有提升那這樣子這個經濟部在發給我們中油公司獎金的時候也比較有依據"},{"start":8265.229,"end":8284.215,"text":"不然你整個都放在這裡的時候你再怎麼經營績效 你們再怎麼認證 帳面就是虧啊虧了之後你說不給綜合員工這些的獎金又說不過去嘛那你們又會背負外界的罵名因為民眾很容易就很簡單虧那麼多 為什麼要給錢 對不對"},{"start":8286.84,"end":8313.051,"text":"我們知道的人就覺得說也不是這樣但是你又很難對普羅大眾說清楚所以我是希望說在你未來的這種參與分析說因為我政策支應的成本那個是多少那是不得不的那另外一個就是我的在經營績效可以控管的範圍之內我是可以增加是多少的我覺得這個可能你們要在管理階層要去把它弄出來那為什麼會提這個提案的原因就是說"},{"start":8314.071,"end":8335.11,"text":"因為通常我看到這個預算我就覺得通常我們企業去借錢都是借低的去還高的嘛然後我就看到那個你們是借新的是1.85%然後還舊的是1.6%那我就去問問你們原因阿哥沒錢還可以贏所以只好要借錢"},{"start":8336.574,"end":8348.484,"text":"就是你連舊的那個倒起來都沒辦法所以我是覺得你們的利息這樣子就會多付了20億然後加上這個氣價就是戰前跟戰後其實從10點多變成是17、18所以這中間的虧損也使得你們的這一個"},{"start":8353.969,"end":8370.46,"text":"舉債的這個費用以及現在新的利息會更高因為我是擔心如果現在的話再走當然央行看起來昨天是不太會再感覺啦是不太會升息但是我怕是說萬一你在升息的時候你這個這一塊的虧損會更嚴重所以我覺得"},{"start":8373.562,"end":8390.832,"text":"可能我也沒有說要幹嘛我只是說讓你有個說明的機會所以這個我改組決議了好不好然後在這個報告裡面好好去說明到底你的政治資助跟你的經營績效因為我覺得這個對你們的經營團隊跟員工"},{"start":8395.202,"end":8420.224,"text":"我覺得會比較是一個可以看出你們努力的績效的表現啊因為不然政府由上而下叫你要補貼叫你要吸收我覺得你這一塊你再賺一塊政府叫你吸收五塊你帳面上還是虧四啊我的意思是這樣子啦所以我希望你們在組決議這邊就去說明一下目前的這個成本的這些費用的結構這樣好不好是是"},{"start":8420.604,"end":8421.804,"text":"因為中油是國營事業 它扮演到有一些政策的任務"},{"start":8443.117,"end":8470.186,"text":"有時候會有很多成本產生那基層員工也要照顧特別我是這個中油子弟我特別感受到那種基層中油員工那種辛苦在打拼那種辛苦所以我覺得對基層員工的這個照顧這個中油公司要特別了解不管是電子事業部碳冷事業部還是油品行銷或天然氣等等"},{"start":8471.087,"end":8490.854,"text":"在第一線的中友同仁都會非常辛苦對他們的這個福利待遇我們給予支持但是你們增資計畫要積極增資計畫如果送到立法院我想我們跨黨外都會支持因為唯有增資參與改善你們的財務結構你們利息支出才會降低嘛謝謝洪委員36啊 36剛剛已經過了"},{"start":8502.745,"end":8503.686,"text":"我們這案也是紅委員改組決議"},{"start":8525.563,"end":8546.425,"text":"那事實上我覺得在處理中油現在要負擔利息這件事情我想在某些程度我們也要替中油講話因為我們知道說近年有發生的這個中東的這些衝突然後赫默茲海峽的狀況事實上中油是吸收了整個油價"},{"start":8547.986,"end":8573.861,"text":"動漲然後成本是總有吸收如果這樣預估起來到目前大概吸收172億那而且這樣的一個動漲也確實有發揮我們現在台灣在戰爭後發生戰爭的狀況之下我們的物價物價的穩定相對於日韓我們幾乎可以說台灣的物價是相對其他鄰國最穩定的"},{"start":8575.422,"end":8600.4,"text":"這個中友就是在第一線然後去承擔了這樣的一個政策的因素那承擔政策因素當然就會有成本的要吸收那這個成本相對應的因為中友目前舉債的狀況就會有利息支出所以有利息支出我想只要把這個利息的支出然後這些銀行的一些貸款的狀況那說明清楚那分會員也同意用組決議那我覺得趁這個機會事實上我們還是要"},{"start":8603.402,"end":8619.433,"text":"感謝忠友在於這段時間穩定物價也給台灣整個民生狀況是帶來實質的一個效益那我覺得這部分我要補充一下好 謝謝蔡議員補充所以40案 謝謝洪明祥委員我們就改成主決議那我們繼續處理41案36案跟任委員做說明因為36案跟38案一起處理我們已經動500萬了"},{"start":8628.45,"end":8649.637,"text":"那已經動500萬提出說明資料 剛剛已經有討論過了所以36到現在已經處理完了剛剛有說明的啦363738剛剛有充分說明的啦我知道啦 剛剛也是洪義祥委員他也有說明 也有提問 也有說明的啦"},{"start":8658.444,"end":8676.241,"text":"因為他說不一樣啦那個 三十億的那一個 我剛剛說明的是五億那個曾立財委員 你這樣有這個要求請那個方董事長 針對三十六萬陽瓊玉委員的提案你再稍微說明一下雖然我們已經處理過了 但是你還是要補充說明一下"},{"start":8677.021,"end":8699.709,"text":"是 有關36萬 楊委員所提案也就是研發費用那麼證明編列是30億啦那他主要就是關心的就是對於公司研究所所完成的一些研究事項專利的取得以及他專利的運用呢希望能夠把它提升那我想就這樣說明"},{"start":8701.269,"end":8718.805,"text":"那麼我們去年來講我們研發專利的申請提出了69件那麼其中有34件是已經取得了專利那麼這些專利是應用在我們公司內部或者是授權外部使用的已經有94項"},{"start":8720.606,"end":8739.191,"text":"那就這些貢獻上來講包括了就是創造的利益以及在公司內部所節省的成本那麼已經有到達了44億接近45億那我想這些研發能量對公司事實上是有幫助的那麼"},{"start":8741.755,"end":8756.737,"text":"那當然現在未來來講對於新興科技來講那麼也會有一些新世代的一些需要的近鄰科技等等也要繼續的投入跟研發所以走邊的預算呢那麼也恳請委員能夠支持"},{"start":8758.398,"end":8784.725,"text":"這個關於這個鄭院委員是不是請中油公司啊會後再去跟這個鄭委員做個詳細的說明好來我覺得其實中油的這個研發的能量非常強因為他們有到我辦公室講解了一些那我覺得在國營企業裡面算是非常的卓越的那我覺得就是說因為他們這樣子就是說在一些能源轉型還有"},{"start":8785.945,"end":8813.481,"text":"一些新型態的這個研發的能量我認為也應該要給其他委員都了解因為我也是藉由預算的這個就是說預算的那個期間那他們來跟我說明預算的時候有講解過那我覺得說是不是也給其他委員知道那讓大家知道說未來如果有更精進然後更好的方向然後讓我們的這個能源轉型能夠進行得更加順利"},{"start":8815.602,"end":8829.634,"text":"謝委員言之有理 那下午也到辦公室說明一下好了這個先跟政見委員 下午再去說明一下沒關係 可以說明了 這個因為楊瓊英這邊也跟楊瓊英再說明一下這個因為從這個數字來講因為這經費很大 每年都是這樣然後這個實際上的"},{"start":8841.044,"end":8851.006,"text":"使用的比例真的是很低了真的是很低所以這個部分研發有成果起了專利但是有沒有被"},{"start":8852.852,"end":8871.125,"text":"有沒有獲得實際的效果這個都是要一併去請公司會後跟證監裁委員、楊全宇委員在安排時間做說明我們繼續處理第41案賴瑞榮改成組決議42案李玉玲改組決議43案轉投資計畫李玉玲改組決議現在繼續處理重大建設事業部分從44案開始到51案其中"},{"start":8882.723,"end":8885.297,"text":"44案撤案 46案李玉琳改組決議"},{"start":8887.605,"end":8909.553,"text":"47案鄭天才等林倩琦改組決議48案鍾嘉斌改組決議49案賴瑞榮改組決議50案曾超平改組決議好那剩下45案跟51案的部分是洪委員提案洪委員是不是您要補充還是先請他們說明請眾議員方董事長說明53案又改組決議嗎"},{"start":8913.789,"end":8932.999,"text":"五十三案還沒有處理 只到五十一案而已來 請中央方董事長說明其中第四十五萬 洪委員提案我想洪委員關心的就是說對於所編列的固定資產投資計畫343億那麼其中這裡面蠻大項是屬於天然氣的這個相關的投資計畫"},{"start":8940.219,"end":8960.87,"text":"那對於這個目前來講國內能用供應天然氣是一個很主要的供應設施我想我就不用再去強述了那麼基於這樣一個情況下所以在天然氣的投資計畫我們就是會特別去加強增加它的韌性那麼所需要增加的哪些投資計畫"},{"start":8962.071,"end":8990.056,"text":"那麼這些東西都是為了讓我們國內的能源供應能夠更加的穩定 更加的安全所以這些投資計畫都是有那個必要性那當然委員關心就是說那這些投資計畫都沒有回收性那怎麼辦呢當然應該就是要做是一定要去做的嘛那在這個所需要的一些資金的挹注的部分我們也跟政府提出來"},{"start":8990.936,"end":9006.544,"text":"那麼是不是用增資的方式來補助幫忙中油那麼足夠的這個增資的這個金額能夠投入到這些尚未具有投資效益的投資計畫那目前行政院在討論當中"},{"start":9008.809,"end":9037.185,"text":"那另外就是委員也關心第51案就是有關智慧化技術開發及應用設備這個部分我想委員大概對中國公司比較關心就是說但你到底投資了花了這個錢2000多萬到底是用在什麼地方有沒有那個效果那我想報告一下就是這個金額我們是有關智慧化的部分我們公司是把它當成很優先要去進行的項目所以這個金額"},{"start":9038.486,"end":9062.524,"text":"所需要的幾項標案事實上這幾個標案都已經絕了標了那麼絕了標以後在今年都要把它執行完畢所以這個金額希望能夠支持不要去刪也不要去動那我們這些項目主要是用在什麼地方主要是用在就是說我們重油預熱區的控制系統"},{"start":9064.786,"end":9086.446,"text":"馬達的電流預知保養分析系統還有那個仿生機器人來去協助我們巡視我們的煉油廠或石化廠的廠區能夠幫我們去用這個機器人去幫我們偵測能夠事先知道哪些地方可能是有異常能夠提前的做出一些反應另外在這個馬達"},{"start":9088.348,"end":9115.127,"text":"的一個智慧節能控制呢這個部分也在進行 總共有六件以上就這兩個案子說明請紅衛生委員好 我想就第一個案子 45案這裡頭的話我覺得這個東西就是我剛剛講的在這個 因為是能源政策的這個我覺得就是政府在大的這個能源政策結構型的一個錯誤"},{"start":9116.616,"end":9138.919,"text":"因為你現在就是電不夠所以我們現在必須要天然氣去發電所以在這種情況之下就必須讓你有被迫更多的這一個在天然氣橋接跟除潮的這些的支出所以我是覺得說這個東西在將來你們的分析或者是認識報告的話就回到我剛剛講的那個大結構就是說這是因為政策的"},{"start":9139.64,"end":9152.458,"text":"是啊 不然你這個東西我們是作為橋接的能源供應的時候天然氣的一個膨脹的應該是不會那麼大嘛就已經超出你當時的這個預估的一個間接跟儲存潮的一個範圍"},{"start":9153.846,"end":9169.079,"text":"因為這樣子你超過因為政策結構的錯誤所以導致你必須要去編這麼多的錢然後去做這件事情我是希望是說你稍微去我本來是說要動你3億"},{"start":9170.64,"end":9185.752,"text":"我是覺得我動你100萬你給我一個報告就是說這個報告裡面要去講說你現在各個地方的這個天然氣的儲藏能源在哪些地區那你還有預計現在是多少工程在施工中然後還有多少是"},{"start":9187.053,"end":9216.033,"text":"就是完工的這個比例嘛因為這樣子假設我在供電的時候我們希望到你的天然機到什麼時候是可以充足的話不然我們現在在AI在用電的話我怕你這邊可能連你現在的橋接能源也不叫橋接能源可能變成主力負載能源了所以我的意思是說這個地方在你現階段可能就變成是我要比較清楚知道我們的韌性因為你這邊的施工進度跟這邊的東西是不是來得及這樣子好不好大概是這樣"},{"start":9217.833,"end":9224.436,"text":"51案我就改成是這個組決議因為他們的回答還算詳細謝謝宏偉鄉委員我們45案凍結100萬提出書面報告 兩週年提出書面報告之後實施的凍結51案改成組決議另外補辦預算的部分52案真正前改組決議"},{"start":9244.721,"end":9248.171,"text":"來五十三岸跟五十四岸一併處理資金轉投資部分"},{"start":9249.807,"end":9270.534,"text":"主席51項的部分是不是能夠主決議因為洪委員談到已經主決議了是不是拿來看一下因為我剛聽的內容只是把那個凍結把它只是簡單的改成主決議而已對就是那內容大概是內容的部分是不是可以我這邊也可以要求一下好我簡單表達其實剛剛洪委員已經點出一個重點"},{"start":9275.936,"end":9298.287,"text":"其實過去中油跟台電的角色是不太一樣的電力需求是用台電來供應 中油是供應什麼 供應燃料燃料基本上做兩個用途 一個是運輸工具的使用 一個是工業製造的熱源使用那當然另外還有一個原料的部分 主要是台塑 台塑他們是主要實話是做原料"},{"start":9299.207,"end":9315.561,"text":"中油主要是做燃料燃料分別是工業製造跟運輸工具所使用但是剛剛洪委員在點出智慧跟橋接的部分提到了未來你們的能源進來的是天然氣LNG它其實未來的用途主要是用電力"},{"start":9316.221,"end":9331.41,"text":"那未來的技術像我本期在提出的SOFC它本身它就是一個介乎發電裝置跟儲能的一個新型的裝置那目前它是以LNG為主要的燃料來源但它產出是產生電力"},{"start":9332.691,"end":9349.408,"text":"那未來未來的大電力用戶是不是還要透過台電的公共電網來取得電力未必可能直接是從中油的天然氣輸入接收後直接用天然氣輸氣管到他的處處所這個處所可能不是工廠喔"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}