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歡迎 來來來 幹事長 歡迎 歡迎好 處理長 歡迎 歡迎"},{"start":1909.517,"end":1926.03,"text":"好 謝謝啊 非常感謝三個黨團的幹部都已經到了現場了我們謝謝那我們現在開始開會我們要進行黨團協商主題是公職人員選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案"},{"start":1928.154,"end":1951.743,"text":"我們先介紹行政機關的列席代表首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長 歡迎您民政司政司長 歡迎您中選會的謝主任秘書 歡迎您司法院民視廳的林廳長 歡迎您刑事廳的吳法官 歡迎您法務部代表李檢察官 歡迎您謝謝"},{"start":1956.497,"end":1982.494,"text":"跟各位黨團幹部還有列席官員報告本案內政委員會115年4月23日召開第11屆第5會期第8次全體委員會議審查完均並決議院會討論之前須交由黨團協商本案於115年5月19日內政委員會廖先祥召集委員已經召開過一次協商會議當日協商已經具有共識部分"},{"start":1983.976,"end":1993.435,"text":"1.第六款徵定曾犯詐欺犯罪危害防治條例之罪,經有罪判決確定者不得參選之規定。"},{"start":1995.742,"end":2018.14,"text":"第二 第九款排除緩刑期間不得參選之規定為對於民眾黨團提案增列排除受異形處分者不得登記為候選人之限制沒有達成共識為了節省各位黨團代表的寶貴時間我們集中討論焦點提升效率"},{"start":2019.241,"end":2041.916,"text":"在這裡要見請各位黨團幹部我們先行討論受疫情處分者是否排除限制之規定如果大家對於已經有的共識部分還有意見的話我們回頭繼續討論請問各位黨團幹部有沒有其他的意見如果沒有其他意見就接受本席的建議我們先來討論大家"},{"start":2045.427,"end":2070.198,"text":"這個民眾黨團的提案這一部分我們來現在我們要請各列席的黨團代表首先要請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見好嗎國民黨團請準備謝謝院長主席還有三黨總召還有部長各位同仁有關於這個台灣民眾黨在"},{"start":2072.878,"end":2097.661,"text":"選舉報名法二十六條第九款我們認為對受反刑宣告以及受疫情處分裡面的義福社會勞動者應該要平等的對待這個原因是因為我們憲法第十七條保障我們人民的選舉權那麼我們法律上如果法官認為"},{"start":2099.093,"end":2107.977,"text":"有處得公權的必要已經有處得公權的可能那麼法官沒有處得公權結果我們用尋罷法"},{"start":2109.577,"end":2130.935,"text":"來加以限制在重罪還有一點解釋的過去但是如果對輕罪也不能讓他參選的話這個會違反我們憲法23條這一個對於人民的選舉權等基本權的限制必須要符合社會公共利益等必要才會比較合憲"},{"start":2132.495,"end":2156.417,"text":"所以本黨鑒於我們中華民國的法律體系對於反刑跟義扶社會勞動都是平等對待所以我今天特地把我國刑法跟政黨法相關的條文加黑讓各位看得比較清楚提出來請各位做參考"},{"start":2157.639,"end":2185.536,"text":"我根據這個順序來跟各位報告在我國刑法74條第一項說兩年以下有期徒刑者可以反刑兩年以下有期徒刑者可以反刑反刑期間五年而我們根據我們刑法第41條做輕罪五年以下的受六個月的徒刑的宣告"},{"start":2186.721,"end":2208.434,"text":"以及7年以下的也是受6個月以下徒刑的宣告我們在41條是亦符社會勞動亦符社會勞動所以2年以下宣告的是可以返刑而6個月以下的亦符社會勞動那我們請各位看到最後政黨法第7條"},{"start":2210.018,"end":2228.079,"text":"對於我們中華民國的政黨負責人他有消極資格的限制而這個資格的限制裡面我們是把反省宣告跟義扶社會勞動是平等的對待所以根據我們中華民國的法律體系跟它的原則"},{"start":2229.775,"end":2248.631,"text":"反行宣告跟義扶社會勞動其實是平等的對待所以本黨才會在這個第九款的但書除了反行以外更有必要把疫情處分裡面的義扶社會勞動呢來加以納入那如果可以這樣納入的話"},{"start":2250.029,"end":2262.055,"text":"可以讓我們人民比較大幅度的回復他的選舉權才會比較使得我們的選罷法比較符合憲法的要求以上 謝謝各位"},{"start":2275.353,"end":2301.228,"text":"謝謝院長召集今天這個會那我想其實剛剛就如同院長講的原本我們各黨團有共識的部分當然沒有爭議那現在有爭議的部分那其實就是民眾黨團就是5月19號想要增加的這個獲得直接間接義扶社會勞動之自由行者不在此限那民進黨團有三個理由就是反對第一個"},{"start":2302.97,"end":2324.231,"text":"政治上這樣很容易讓大家覺得這個是為民眾黨的高鴻安量身打造因為他如果有罪判決確定可能溢服社會勞動民眾黨是不是為了保他的參選資格而這麼的緊急的量身打造個案修法我覺得這個外界"},{"start":2325.312,"end":2346.862,"text":"廣泛的公民恐怕都沒有辦法接受這種大家沒有共識然後明顯有為個別政治人物量身打造的修法這是第一個我們反對的理由那除了這個之外我們覺得也有第二個是法律上覺得民眾黨版的這個沒有辦法說服大家民眾黨版這個第九條寫獲得直接間接一幅社會勞動"},{"start":2353.425,"end":2372.432,"text":"但是據我的了解實務上根本就沒有得職階這件事而且法院判決書上的文字不等於最終的結果也就是說決定能不能一行的人是檢察官那民眾黨版希望讓被判可以做社會勞動的人也能登記參選"},{"start":2373.892,"end":2397.74,"text":"但能不能用勞動來代替坐牢在法官判決的那一刻也無法百分之百確定那法官開出來的裁判書會寫如准一顆罰金至於一服社會勞動法院的判決書上甚至連提都不會提到等到判決確定後個案去向地檢署報到時最後把關決定準不準一服社會勞動的還是檢察官個案審查決定"},{"start":2401.741,"end":2408.203,"text":"所以你們寫的這個獲得直接間接其實在法律上最後一點呢這個可能會造成實務上的選務的混亂因為即使被准一服是會勞動"},{"start":2426.269,"end":2441.257,"text":"那如果個案不去做,做得不好太惡劣然後檢察官又把他撤銷資格那個案最後還是有機會得要去坐牢啊那記這樣的一個理由那如果個案因為被檢察官準一服是會勞動而登記成功並開始跑選舉"},{"start":2445.379,"end":2450.001,"text":"那如果被撤銷坐牢那這個個案就會變成正在服刑期間無法參選那我並不知道高鴻安市長是不是這樣的狀況那可是其實這裡面的變數很多如果就照民眾黨版通過那這個選務上實務上真的造成很大的困擾我想選舉的公正公平公開是我們這個跨越政黨的大家的一個核心的共識那不能傷害這個部分"},{"start":2474.634,"end":2488.226,"text":"所以以上從政治上大家覺得這是為個別政治部量身打造那第二個就是法律上有不一致的問題第三個可能造成選務混亂那民進黨團不贊成民眾黨的這個提案好 謝謝我們民進黨團的書記長范雲委員的發言接下來我們請國民黨團發言內政部劉部長請準備"},{"start":2500.043,"end":2523.841,"text":"好謝謝主席其實今天我們修這個法主要的原因也是因為說時空環境已經跟過去以往非常的不一樣而且再加上說我們在不預設立場的前提之下我們現在看到的從過去的最近的一波民調看到司法的信心對於全民對於司法信心有民調顯示是極度的不好的"},{"start":2524.461,"end":2547.831,"text":"所以在這種情況之下當我們修法的時候我們當然是要與時俱進而且不要去預設立場今天我們修的法是為了未來國家繼續發展的一個很重要的基石所以我認為該修的法我們還是要從善如流該修就要修謝謝國民黨團表達立場我們請劉部長表達意見好嗎我們請司法院準備"},{"start":2549.036,"end":2554.3,"text":"謝謝院長以及三個黨團的幹部今天我們來討論的部分剛剛陳院長的指示就是我們只針對排除受疫情處分者不得參選的限制站在內政部的立場我們在內政委員會的時候已經多次表達希望維持現有的條文不要再做更動"},{"start":2570.289,"end":2587.422,"text":"有幾個原因剛剛各位已經知道了解刑法或是了解其他異刑處分的部分我們會認為說因為異刑處分譬如說是異科罰金或者異服社會勞動僅是有期徒刑執行方式的替代手段那如果沒有執行完畢的話"},{"start":2588.803,"end":2603.999,"text":"本來我們就應該把它視為有期徒刑執行未必也就是未完畢那如果將它列入但書而且允許可以候選人登記為候選人合理性的時候有待商榷也就是說我們只有"},{"start":2605.2,"end":2632.814,"text":"在那個選罷法裡面修正的部分的話真的是只有針對他的候選人本身的條件的放寬而不是剛剛有黨團幹部特別提到說包括刑法或是政黨法裡面的全面性對於所謂的異形處分裡面的做一個全面概括性的一個陳述所以我們認為說是有待商榷那另外一個就是說第一個我們都知道今年年底的這個大選是設在11月28日"},{"start":2634.755,"end":2658.324,"text":"現在距離11月28日其實還不到半年的時間我們現在如果倉促的修法通過沒有像我們剛剛所說的我們是不是回頭來看一下包括刑法或是包括政黨法或是包括選罷法的26條的話會讓人覺得說好像有點因人設施的感覺所以站在我們行政機關比較保守的立場上面"},{"start":2659.404,"end":2686.451,"text":"希望能夠維持現行的規定不要做任何改變謝謝好謝謝劉部長的表明內政部的立場那我們接下來我們請司法院法務部跟中學會依序來表達意見好嗎我們先請司法院林廳長您表達意見法務部請準備是主席各位委員大家好那有關這個政策的立法方向那本院是尊重大院及主管機關內政部的規劃"},{"start":2687.651,"end":2703.232,"text":"但是就這個條文的設計可能在司法審判實務上會引起一些疑議那有關這個部分因為涉及到刑事審判實務以下我們麻煩刑事廳的吳法官來說明麻煩請"},{"start":2706.004,"end":2724.778,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好司法院就疫情處分這個部分主要意見如下 敬請指教即使法院判決宣告的自由刑可以受疫情處分這邊包括一科罰金跟一服社會勞動但是執行時呢 甲官未必會維持等疫情處分"},{"start":2726.079,"end":2743.086,"text":"這還是假官的裁量權所以建請貴院先確認修法的原意為何如果修法原意是只要法院宣告的自由行可以得受疫情處分就可以了實際上是否受疫情處分還是自由行的執行在所不論的話"},{"start":2744.486,"end":2762.534,"text":"則可規定為得一科罰金或一服社會勞動或得受一刑處分但是如果修法原意是必須實際上受檢察官的一刑處分而沒有執行自由刑才可以的話那則依規定為受一刑處分就沒有那個得字"},{"start":2763.334,"end":2780.09,"text":"那修法原意為何呢還有採用何種的法條文字本院尊重立法院的決定其餘部分反請看今天本院所出具的書面報告謝謝各位好 謝謝吳法官我們請法務部的李檢察官請表達意見好嗎法務部的李"},{"start":2782.35,"end":2810.124,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我是法務部代表那關於這個提案的部分呢首先是就司法實務上面跟主委說一下說明如果就是法院判決的時候呢如果是預支六個月以下有期徒刑的話那他可能會就有依照刑法41條跟刑事訴訟法第309條第二款的規定呢他就法院在主文就必須預支一顆罰金的一個折算標準那但是這個部分只是一個折算標準而已"},{"start":2811.144,"end":2836.682,"text":"至於能不能做異刑的處分是要到全案犯有罪判決確定之後會送到執行檢察官這邊那會來就個案來看說就矯正的角度來看依照刑法第41條的規定如果在得異科罰金的個案他會去看是不是有難受矯正的知效或難以維持法制序或是在異服社會勞動的部分也會參佐他的身心健康有沒有執行的困難難受矯正知效或難以維持法制序的情形來判斷也就是說"},{"start":2838.303,"end":2854.181,"text":"到執行檢察官這邊的時候呢雖然法院做了一個折算的標準但是執行檢察官會就個案來決定說適不適合做一顆罰金或一副社會勞動的一個決定這時候就會做一個疫情的處分但是大家需要注意的就是說如果說"},{"start":2855.482,"end":2867.42,"text":"委員們的如果大家政策決定是要放在執行檢察官這邊的話那變成說執行檢察官決定準或是不準一行處分就會直接連結到這一位當事人能不能夠參選那這樣的話在執行"},{"start":2870.865,"end":2894.04,"text":"檢察官來講他要考慮的就沒那麼純粹了他應該是要就當事人的執行方面的一個矯正的考量來做一個綜合的判斷而不是跟這個參選與否直接做一個掛鉤直接因為執行下去的結果就是法院就是執行檢察官在決定要不要疫情處分的時候直接連結到這個當事人未來能不能馬上參選所以對執行檢察官來講就會變成他"},{"start":2897.682,"end":2919.229,"text":"會變有可能會陷入這個政治的漩渦裡面那對檢察官的這個決定來講不是很適當也不是很妥適另外就當選人來講當選人參選是他一個基本權的如果這個消息是對他基本權的限制的話那變成說他能不能參選與否也會細於說執行檢察官的決定那對當選人的參選的權利來講也是不公平的"},{"start":2922.35,"end":2929.886,"text":"所以基於以上的考量呢那我們是尊重主管機關的意見建議就是請大家再斟酌這個部分謝謝"},{"start":2932.955,"end":2953.388,"text":"好 謝謝李檢察官不好意思 再補充一下就是關於那個委員有提到政黨法的部分因為政黨法是政黨負責人那我們現在選的是公職選罷法公職人員選罷法是公職所以跟正職的那個考量的層面應該有點不一樣那也請大家再考慮一下 謝謝好 謝謝您好 李檢察官謝謝您我們麻煩請中選會謝祖密請表達一點好嗎 謝謝您"},{"start":2956.924,"end":2982.462,"text":"院長各位委員那針對是不是排除受疫情處分或一服社會勞動部的參選那中選會是認為這個涉及參選權的保障限制參選的公益性還有比例原則的考量那本會是尊重那個主管機關內政部的意見那另外中選會是辦理選務的機關那也會依立法的結果來辦理選務的相關事項以上"},{"start":2985.72,"end":3010.447,"text":"好 接下來二輪的話哪一位黨團想要陳總召請先發言 好嗎好 專案幹事長請準備好 謝謝主席 謝謝院長我想我們今天針對這樣的一個選八法二十六條目前討論的就是在疫情的這個部分"},{"start":3011.187,"end":3032.381,"text":"那這邊我還是要先表明剛剛我們民進黨我們的委員特別去表達說這有可能是政治上的量身打造那我想這一個帽子扣得太大了今天我們在修這樣的一個選辦法我們主要針對的是我們"},{"start":3039.332,"end":3057.319,"text":"各黨團曾經有一個共識就是緩刑的部分緩刑的部分如果今天說役服勞役役刑的這樣的修法是為個人而做那緩刑更是為政治上的考量而"},{"start":3057.779,"end":3065.984,"text":"要修法所以我在這邊我要第一個先表明我們針對我們的選辦法來修法我們考量的是我們人民的一個參與選舉的權利而不要以為個別的一個對象來修法我想我們不應該在在這裡做這樣一個政變那不然倒退回來今天包括我們會長的"},{"start":3090.002,"end":3102.799,"text":"會員也都有提出這個環形的部分就可以參選那疫情的部分就產生這樣的一個爭議那我想在這個部分我要先表明那第二個"},{"start":3103.84,"end":3123.369,"text":"我們剛剛民進黨委員這邊也表達說這個疫情最後還是一個執行檢察官的一個裁量權那我想執行檢察官的裁量權就是執行檢察官的裁量權他不應該跟"},{"start":3126.201,"end":3143.742,"text":"受這樣判決一壺社會操縱的這樣的一個來把它作為政治選舉的考量我們今天在修這個我們針對法來修吧而不是任何的一個動機都是要跟"},{"start":3146.164,"end":3166.37,"text":"執行檢察官可能要考量這個人要不要參選可以不可以參選我要不要給他參選不應該落入到這樣的一個迷思那我們台灣民眾黨針對我們26條我們有提出我們的修正動議有提出我們的修正動議目前也提供給各黨團來參考我們在這裡的修正動議"},{"start":3175.393,"end":3204.083,"text":"是在二十六條第九款之後增加但處為但宣告反省或得這個得字或得直接間接義乎社會勞動之自由行者不在此限我們這個得跟自由行的行我們特別來於這個加入我們的"},{"start":3205.163,"end":3232.011,"text":"一個修正綜藝齁那在這裡我們還是強調歡欣我們可以給他戰術排除那得直接或間接役服社會勞動這個罪行比較輕那更應該要以來戰術排除保障我們所有公民參選成為候選人的權利"},{"start":3233.288,"end":3235.313,"text":"好 以上 謝謝謝謝陳總召的發言接下來請莊瑞雄幹事長發言國民黨團請準備"},{"start":3241.968,"end":3264.974,"text":"謝謝院長其實我看了今天的一個討論各個政黨其實也都不敢講真話最不敢講真話的就是中國國民黨因為社會公信力低落要與時俱進所以這個條文要把它修掉這個道理法理都不通了第二個就是許中信委員所提供的這個我很尊敬的"},{"start":3265.894,"end":3282.497,"text":"老大哥啊但是我覺得你這個法律也是沒有讀通你看你在講的那個74條那個部分你當然講說政黨法我們整頂現在的整頂是怎麼樣?政黨法整頂比較古早其實在上一屆整個選罷法修正裡面立法院跟我一人分隊因為那時候你們都不聽我的"},{"start":3301.414,"end":3317.968,"text":"清罪說到底要不要拘束他的一個參選權這個我當然我一直都有意見可是你們今天提出這個修法我有一部分的部分實在你如果說英語說清罪說是不是可以讓他算講得通可是會產生一個衝突"},{"start":3320.069,"end":3327.353,"text":"你說騙的人,譬如說我的異性,你說你們高雄安這個六個月可以依靠罰金,我告訴你,那不是用輕重來看。我們選罷法的規定很多都是用罪名,你只要涉及到洗錢的話,你判決三個月、四個月,你一樣不可以算。"},{"start":3338.752,"end":3341.973,"text":"市政房租有比你們負責比較輕鬆 你們跟我們判六個月 你們跟我們判四個月的我那裡有很多原住民的 會去用洗錢的 今天我來許仲信做老闆 我來你那裡吃個頭肉的 喝個頭肉 經期了 我帳本會給你 身份證會給你把我錄取了 你說要匯薪水給我 結果你把我的帳戶拿去洗錢 我根本就不知道啊"},{"start":3362.578,"end":3369.953,"text":"我發現以後你還要給我點點啊你給我一萬塊啊我很爽啊老闆給我一萬塊啊結果我變共犯啊可是我犯罪行為清潔我判四個月啊靠夭咧我這邊不能算了"},{"start":3374.278,"end":3391.65,"text":"所以我們的整個總部選報法裡面其實我們是用罪名啊所以很多邏輯修法點不通的地方本案我之所以反對是反罪什麼呢就是真的有剛我們范林教授講的有量身定做的嫌疑啊是怎麼剛才我們寵過之後"},{"start":3393.371,"end":3408.018,"text":"前面為什麼兩個其他的政黨 你們也沒有反對啊 前面那個大家都有共識的嘛就是針對於 前面提到緩刑可以 第九款嘛 但是緩刑宣告不再實現這個第26條 選法第26條各黨團有共識的部分 你們也認為這個合理嘛"},{"start":3413.341,"end":3428.276,"text":"為什麼會覺得合理的原因就是說 那個沒有特定人啦 還沒有產生啦那個是說 立法院大家有可能 我跟許仲信吵架啦我跟陳清隆我們兩個相偏啦 那個我們三三三的 法院看一看你們這個立法會委員品性本來就不好了 但是不懲罰一下也不行 好 判下去反省"},{"start":3436.164,"end":3446.567,"text":"結果大家繼續可以參選合理嘛各黨派常常立法院本來就會推來推去罵來罵去嘛你現在這個不是你現在這個案子是說已經判下去了你們事後這樣推出來就真的會有這樣的一個疑慮啦啊不然你整理的很好啊你去整理的中華民國刑法74條裡面你要把它空起來兩年以下講的是些什麼啊你也講到政黨法啊但是政黨法你要想那個時間是當時的"},{"start":3463.251,"end":3478.819,"text":"我們現在選辦法,當時是2023這樣有時間上,因為你是高雄,所以我就必須要跟你說理在這個原因所以今天的講法全部都叫做欲蓋彌彰,你知道嗎要幹什麼怎麼會不知道,所以要是反對一下啦,好不好許中運委員你可以等一下發言,我相信你絕對不會洗錢的,好不好來,國民黨團請發言好嗎好,許中運委員請發言,請好,謝謝院長,這個是這樣"},{"start":3493.619,"end":3503.784,"text":"剛才講的最專業的也是我們刑事法官他已經把問題點出來也就是說到底是哪兩種方式"},{"start":3505.011,"end":3532.251,"text":"本案的修正我在內政委員會跟反省一起處理本人支持反省是因為疫情處分改成義福社會勞動我才支持反省的那你如果義福社會勞動沒有同意我沒有同意反省單獨同意反省的部分我沒有那我個人在內政委員會有跟各位報告我把文字修成德"},{"start":3533.393,"end":3555.078,"text":"義扶社會勞動之自由行那因為有直接間接所以為了清楚我增加了直接間接得直接間接義扶社會勞動之自由行這件事情跟檢察官contact line我不知道為什麼有人讀法律會在這裡講說跟檢察官的執行有關"},{"start":3556.278,"end":3583.065,"text":"法官宣告反刑法官宣告得直接間接異乎社會勞動之自由刑完全是法官的職責跟檢察官完全沒有關係那因為你們在司法界講話有影響力但是我很遺憾年輕的法官竟然會講這種沒有法學專業的言論本人的修正內容"},{"start":3584.298,"end":3605.91,"text":"得直接間接義扶社會勞動之自由行的,就是刑事聽法官剛才所講的兩種之一那個就是我們的立法目的,出委員會的立法目的以上跟各位做一個報告,至於有沒有涵蓋要去協助誰本人今天是在進行中華民國刑法的修正"},{"start":3607.482,"end":3635.523,"text":"選罷法的修正所以我們今天是對這個國家負責我們要把輕罪者一體適用讓他回歸他的憲法保障的選舉權而我們中華民國的法治序對於判反刑者、異乎社會勞動者在政黨法是對等的對待的那我們現在兩年以下的反刑可以讓他參選六個月以下的"},{"start":3636.622,"end":3645.737,"text":"義福社會勞動的卻不能參選那這個如何跟外頭顯示說我們立法院所立的法是專業的立法沒辦法跟外頭交代以上"},{"start":3649.332,"end":3671.619,"text":"謝謝院長 徐院長剛才我告訴你 清罪我贊同 但是你特別挑這個出來 我就認為是量身定做不然你聽我說什麼 你說清罪全部都賣 這社會會接受立法院有一個標準 清罪的全部都不可以 你說重罪可以算 清罪不可以算 這第一我覺得不合理"},{"start":3674.085,"end":3682.197,"text":"這個我第一個我的想法就是這樣子啊所以邏輯上要講的話我們要講清楚喔你把整個選辦法二十六條你拿出來大翻修是不是這樣說你把他寵到嘴巴說這嘴巴很抬高很厚啊這樣而已啊我就打他打得輕啊"},{"start":3690.097,"end":3695.001,"text":"過幾天會碰到什麼狀況你知道嗎我用許中信的話質疑許中信高雄判六個月為什麼六個月可以參選人家判四個月不能參選我用這個質疑你就好了會有這樣的問題啦不是說你的法理不對你的法理不一致為什麼會不一致就是眼睛稍微蒙蔽了就為了某些人所以稍微蓋起來一下嘛我的意思就在這個地方嘛不然你講的有道理啊"},{"start":3715.257,"end":3716.439,"text":"那你道理就講了一半你的心裡沒有講出來要幹什麼啊我幫你講出來而已啊你這樣的修法道就會變成我更輕的"},{"start":3727.372,"end":3754.302,"text":"你要舉例的就是說你判六個月以下甚至於你兩年以下的判緩刑你可以去那些人去參選人譬如說我們這次判兩年法院給我們緩刑五年以下的緩刑我們都去參選了你現在講說我六個月的為什麼不能參選有沒有道理 有道理可是你接下來會碰到被挑戰一個為什麼六個月的跑去參選了我這個四個月的不能參選那你告訴我法理在哪裡"},{"start":3755.382,"end":3772.96,"text":"是,我是說大教授要談事情要一併談,要一併來做解決,那你專門挑一個出來,我就挑戰你,就是說你就是量身定做嘛,會碰到這樣一個問題嘛。第二個問題會碰到什麼呢?就是說,我們的法律用語套有什麼意思?直接,什麼意思?間接。"},{"start":3776.684,"end":3796.341,"text":"你讀法律 我也讀法論 我就不要看這個用語 獲得直接 間接 易服 牢獄就是我們的法律上沒有這樣的 刑法上也沒有這樣的一個用語啦要把它另辟一個新名詞 也許許中信委員這個是法學的創建也很好喔 也許真的會喔"},{"start":3796.741,"end":3805.903,"text":"啊可是為什麼就偏偏就碰在這個時機點你解釋不完 我不理你就是說我們這個選罷法 其實我覺得大家不要這麼麻煩大家要衝下去 不用說沒關係讓社會大眾來檢驗輕罪不用去限制他參選就是憲法保障人民參選的權利就是說對於選罷法你看那26條他的規定那些重罪的或者判重刑的就是說這些人不得讓你去參選"},{"start":3827.014,"end":3835.001,"text":"罪名,有寫的嘛,我們前陣子那六項都很嚴重的嘛啊,甚至還落後到第七項,到第八項,啊,我們現在想第九項就是說重罪不參選,這個社會有共識的,社會有共識那到緩刑,大家認為說緩刑嘛,輕罪嘛,那也沒關係啦讓他再往開一面,啊,不然理論上來講啦理論上來講,我們在這邊講喔這院長你一定碰到很多人跟你澄清啦我們怎麼會沒有受到澄清,就是說"},{"start":3856.877,"end":3863.581,"text":"很多人前面是 我是幹了五屆 幹了六屆 幹了七屆了突然立法院一個修法以後 說他終生不得參選立法院去做這種決定也很奇怪啊那行政機關 內政部也好 中選會也好是說 這就叫立法院往前進的一個方向他遵守我們立法的方向 說這個國家社會要往前進了可是我們現在又抽出某一種太陽出來"},{"start":3883.487,"end":3887.452,"text":"我就覺得比較奇怪一點啦名獎沒關係啦 我知道你們要衝阿火啦但是大家要講清楚 否則齁你挑戰這個款型的啦變成我四個月的挑戰你六個月那個異型的啦"},{"start":3898.398,"end":3920.432,"text":"你高雄安六個月喔 你修了之後他可以選 當然就變成可以選 合理那我再來請教 別吵啦 現在在發言就是說接下來碰到了一個判四個月的 他會跟你說為什麼高雄安可以參選 他那個四個月的不能參選許中信大教授換你解釋給我聽 你如果要這樣修的話會碰到這個問題"},{"start":3922.011,"end":3925.014,"text":"行政部門列席的 不用客氣哪一位要發言請司法院 吳法官請"},{"start":3942.836,"end":3968.604,"text":"那個麥克風比較小聲一點所以你可以大聲一點講主席各位委員各位先進本院就直接間接這個用語再補充表示一個意見因為學術上有可能做此等分類但實務上對直接間接這樣的用語是比較陌生所以理解上可能會有困難而且如果不管是直接還是間接它如果都是得益福社會勞動這個結果的話"},{"start":3970.425,"end":3976.45,"text":"好像沒有特別記載這個直接間接用語的必要性那以上稍作補充 謝謝各位"},{"start":3988.647,"end":4005.566,"text":"現在這樣可以嗎好謝謝主席委員好喔那關於這條文剛剛有看說運動的部分喔我有個有個部分有點疑慮就是說因為上面是寫一福社會勞動但是依照刑法第41條的話是你的一科法第一個部分是法院主文只會"},{"start":4006.887,"end":4028.849,"text":"預支得一顆法金的折算標準他是完全不會出現一幅社會勞動的一幅社會勞動是到執行甲官這邊才會知道他適不適合一幅社會勞動比如說他沒有他可以一幅一顆法金但他不申請他可能沒有錢或是有其他的考量他不要一顆法金他跟甲官申請一幅社會勞動"},{"start":4029.83,"end":4047.261,"text":"那這樣的話不知道有沒有符合這個法條的用語呢因為法條是寫得益福社會勞動的自由行但是法院並不會宣告這個部分然後另外就是說或是說他有刑法第41條的第四上的狀況還有一些身心健康"},{"start":4048.861,"end":4071.369,"text":"之類的然後沒有辦法執行義扶社會勞動這些所以我的意思是說法院只會給義科罰金的折算標準能不能義扶社會勞動要到執行檢察官這邊才會知道這個實務上的一個疑慮 謝謝好沒問題 那許中信對不起許委員稍待一下內政部跟中情會要不要補充一下"},{"start":4076.139,"end":4089.883,"text":"剛剛幾位在司法院跟法務部都表達立場針對民眾黨黨團修正動議條文裡面我們跟我們自己的官員討論過也是會有這樣的疑慮第一個不曉得直接跟間接是指什麼意思"},{"start":4091.005,"end":4117.67,"text":"直接跟間接你如果沒有做比較完整的一個解釋的話其實站在我們這個第一線要把法條拿來當成執行層面的話確實會有困難那第二個就是剛剛所說的就是說如果按照剛剛的幾位這個法學先進所提的部分如果你讓這個檢察官他在個案判斷上面的話呢他一定會碰到就是說選舉期間跟非選舉期間會落入這樣的政治上的爭議"},{"start":4118.51,"end":4142.886,"text":"那我們從來都不希望檢察官落入這樣的爭議因為選舉就是選舉的議題那個是政黨之間的一個競爭的部分所以我們覺得說第一個一定要先了解民眾黨黨團修正動議是指什麼意思那到底要做什麼事情如果沒有講清楚說明白的話站在這個行政機關在執行的層面上一定會出現很多的這個漏洞 謝謝"},{"start":4143.706,"end":4168.944,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長補充中學會員要不要補充沒有徐委員請繼續發言您發言之後我們將會休息十分鐘好 謝謝謝謝院長這個有關於直接間接我們的資通法 社會發展部裡面就明明有直接間接的用語所以各位可以查一下資通法 直接間接那麼第二點有關於我們"},{"start":4174.331,"end":4186.824,"text":"莊瑞雄戰友,他所講的四個月底下的問題,謝謝你做球給我六個月底下,不是為高雄安,是因為刑法第41條刑法第41條,義扶社會勞動,在第一項六個月以下"},{"start":4191.653,"end":4211.064,"text":"有期徒刑可以宣告異乎社會勞動第三項也是六個月以下可以異乎社會勞動它的執行期間只有一年內所以我是從41條得到六個月所以從41條就可以得到那我們今天剛才我們檢察官"},{"start":4212.527,"end":4238.652,"text":"講到檢察官執行的問題你沒有看得懂我的修正案也就是說得直接間接一幅社會勞動之自由刑這是法官宣告的刑他的刑如果符合41條第一項第三項就是可以讓他回復參選所以法官宣告了刑如果是在41條一項跟第三項的"},{"start":4240.356,"end":4254.854,"text":"自由行根據41條第一項第三項就可以得直接間接義扶社會勞動所以本席所提出來的完全符合中華民國法治序那也可以讓各位做挑戰"},{"start":4256.021,"end":4275.172,"text":"今天有錄音錄影我也要回成大面對我的法學界所以我所講的完全是符合中華民國法治序我敢在這裡用我的學術來跟各位講說直接間接在我國法律上不是只有學理而已而是我們的資通法就有直接間接的用於"},{"start":4277.256,"end":4296.998,"text":"剛才那個四個月的,我就是要修法讓他可以選到六個月以下都可以選,並沒有說六個月可以,四個月以下不行所以你要看刑法41條的第一項跟第三項這個是有關於法官宣告的自由刑"},{"start":4297.839,"end":4315.065,"text":"我沒有去講到華京省,我只想自由省,也就是居易或是六個月底下的自由省,沒有講到華京省這是本人從內政委員會,協商沒有成功,送到我們這裡來協商的"},{"start":4317.466,"end":4332.306,"text":"所以我們現在也沒辦法直接只對返刑來處理因為當時在一讀的時候就是包在一起送到這裡協商也不可能只有通過返刑因為立法程序上不能允許這樣子以上"},{"start":4334.482,"end":4360.808,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員 莊委員您要繼續我怕他說得冷氣了 徐中興徐委員不是人質疑你啦我是拿這個案例來做一個對於你這樣的一個修法跟我們之所以為什麼在緩刑的時候各個政黨大家有共識那一行處分出來以後會變成反而在這個地方在論戰"},{"start":4362.228,"end":4373.42,"text":"我是在指出這個原因否則呢你說緩刑跟你會一刑處分當然都屬於輕罪嘛但是輕罪的部分是不是說完全就一定要來剝奪他參選的一個權利那我國人的主張啦"},{"start":4378.005,"end":4403.495,"text":"就很清楚了嘛我都認為 請問你跟韓國瑜要做什麼但問題會碰到一個問題就是這個案件裡面時間點裡面就講不清楚了第二個呢 其實我覺得必須要再去探討一個地方就是說你任何的一個異形處分喔你異形處分有什麼問題你知道嗎假設一個案子我當法官我把這個案子宣判下去以後我把它宣告可以有異形處分的話"},{"start":4405.519,"end":4414.806,"text":"變成對確定判決的被告來講的話他是取得一個申請的權利而已喔所以告別要在執行的時候到底是什麼你知道嗎真的到底要檢測多少兩個有夠衰我們兩個手牽手假設我們兩個當然不會違反罪我們如果違反罪之後出來之後"},{"start":4423.112,"end":4451.871,"text":"我們去到檢察官那裡 他說 嘿嘿那個許中信長得胖胖的比較可愛得異形處分 得異科罰金莊惠雄看起來比較兇一點 我就把他補回了 你可以參算 我不可以參算也怪所以我才跟你建議 你要嘛就大修你一大修 各個政黨來 大家沒有意見你這個挑出來 我怎麼看就是覺得你看范雲看過去就是高雄安"},{"start":4452.914,"end":4479.318,"text":"對不對 只有你們看起來就覺得不是這個為普羅大眾不是 時間點怪 我不敢跟你們說你們修了為了什麼 我怎麼會不知道呢你們如果起心動念是按照你剛剛那個法例來講的話那是整部選法法我們要重新要去把它重修喔勤做的部分 底下看要怎麼去做刪除前面六款的重罪 甚至於有些都不是重罪"},{"start":4480.646,"end":4484.017,"text":"重罪可以算的 那可以算的輕罪不能算的"},{"start":4485.286,"end":4511.657,"text":"這個我是最在意的我站在是一個法的橫平性許教授我這樣講應該合理我挑戰你不是說你講的不對是說你這時間點然後抽出這麼一塊跟過往大家的論述你們這個講到後怎麼會這樣你們這個講到後怎麼會說你們在那裡交易在那裡交換所以你講的這個哪叫法理如果要講法理的話我們就全套都來講法理清罪可以選的大家有一致性"},{"start":4512.737,"end":4538.898,"text":"低於那個重罪可以選的 看誰可以選的低於他的 大家全部都可以選這樣不是合理那可不可以選那不能檢察官來做決定了檢察官說你白白許中信跟我莊惠雄我們兩個都出來了看到許中信說這個許中信看起來可愛這個對社會沒有傷害這個莊惠雄看起來這個難受矯正之效然後繼續不能參選就這樣天啊 幹什麼所以我的意思鄉親娘我的意思是"},{"start":4541.379,"end":4560.886,"text":"因為我已經拿我自己下來舉例了嘛就是說我是很對於這個選罷法我們從地方基層來我們怎麼會不懂所以我的意思是要把它修的公平性把它修的一體性如果只對個案的我可以反對這個比較有意思啦反對這個就是說你們要愛什麼你們就說沒關係要面對社會檢驗"},{"start":4566.67,"end":4584.319,"text":"你說我們就要賣,我們就真的為了高雄安來的,我覺得這太謙虛,要把它收掉你大大說,我可以跟你說因為你個案,我反對,我只能跟你講這樣而已不然法理上我不認為不通喔,但是我們立法院是這樣子嘛,立法院如果因為個案這樣進來以後"},{"start":4586.834,"end":4599.487,"text":"會亂掉啦,真的,你不能要拿到你們想要的說一堆之後,我們都在這裡聽你們說,是,好崇拜你不是,你的法學素養崇拜,但是這次的修法動機不單純"},{"start":4601.206,"end":4619.201,"text":"好 謝謝 中央選委那我想等一下我們休息十分鐘請各黨團還有行政官員好好把握這黃金的十分鐘十分鐘之後 我們要宣告沒有 休息你可以溝通 沒問題如果休息之後你還想發言你可以繼續發言 好嗎我希望你們能夠多多溝通好 我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":4627.811,"end":4639.68,"text":"沒有檢察官的牽扯帶沒有沒有沒有我這個文字得一科是為了自由行拿到判決書就去找中情會沒有檢察官的問題"},{"start":4647.916,"end":4648.156,"text":"這裏面有個大廈"},{"start":4665.474,"end":4666.854,"text":"那個能不能進去吧"},{"start":4689.209,"end":4689.369,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":4719.569,"end":4722.351,"text":"現在的部長還好嗎?現在已經滿好看的"},{"start":4739.544,"end":4752.255,"text":"對啊 看你都好幸福對啊 長生在地比較無謂的無謂的時候我現在也是隨身活肉當擅長的一群人我想自己我們第一擅長就是有時候會早上突然叫醒大家一起回家我們現在連這個電器都沒有 因為人家還要規劃"},{"start":4760.423,"end":4761.924,"text":"我現在是說 因為你油膩了"},{"start":4789.923,"end":4792.125,"text":"這裏有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":4809.358,"end":4809.878,"text":"鲍鱼"},{"start":4831.096,"end":4831.756,"text":"你看這個樣子"},{"start":4846.021,"end":4847.222,"text":"他們都不關我事, 他們都不關我事,"},{"start":4861.669,"end":4886.542,"text":"真的搞不完,我還說一件事我都不想搞了,那有什麼其他阿伯要啊?阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,阿伯要,"},{"start":4887.543,"end":4887.563,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":4907.984,"end":4921.011,"text":"我們真的要放他選票嗎?那罪名放他不就可以了?那不是這樣說,我們選票落地落地,那都是說罪名的,真的要放他不就可以了?是啊,真的是罪名啊,沒錯啊。"},{"start":4933.558,"end":4949.684,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":4949.944,"end":4964.469,"text":"就覺得很不邪惡直接接在你東方佛法裡面多大罰你公子罰你才要清掉因為直接接你學過公子罰沒有?有嘛你通法你沒有看過你學過公子罰嗎?為什麼你這樣講話?直接接是我們東方佛法裡多大罰你要直接接公子罰必修的"},{"start":4975.723,"end":5000.758,"text":"也要比较坚决为什么要判我这个不实的法律的坚决法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决中华民国法律的坚决"},{"start":5006.804,"end":5021.748,"text":"你們花表那個一間接一間比較有用的事情,一定會被反映下來。二十四一條,第三項是比較重要的,第一項比較重要。我用一間接一間比較有用的事情,你們一間接一間比較有用的事情,你們一間接一間比較有用的事情,竟然敢到這裡來。"},{"start":5029.669,"end":5037.18,"text":"我今天是跟林董打拳 叫他跟你們講你們這麼投擲風格對 基本的 請我把第11項第1項 第3項 第4項"},{"start":5043.348,"end":5045.149,"text":"華麗人在講話華麗人在講話華麗人在講話"},{"start":5066.5,"end":5068.963,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":5080.055,"end":5083.996,"text":"這間店在過萬多晚,也過早下午了。這間店在過萬多晚,也過早下午了。"},{"start":5109.121,"end":5118.005,"text":"太多人了 怎麼會就是連綠燈都藍燈為什麼要搶那種綠燈 為什麼要搶那種綠燈為什麼要搶那種綠燈為什麼要搶那種綠燈"},{"start":5136.454,"end":5141.478,"text":"他們第一次來這裡也很清楚"},{"start":5157.039,"end":5169.428,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5184.79,"end":5185.991,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":5233.043,"end":5233.063,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":5252.525,"end":5259.331,"text":"找一下移動安全法 直接的那些條件搜索一下"},{"start":5266.332,"end":5271.358,"text":"自動安全法,直接鑑別人,你能不能把它截圖,截圖,截圖,截圖,截圖,截圖"},{"start":5289.536,"end":5298.358,"text":"開始掌聲半年級大學就這邊一點然後我看到你們把那個直接進去的那個牌子把牌子劃起來把牌框起來把牌框起來,勾起來"},{"start":5317.415,"end":5325.277,"text":"這就是整個啦,你就是要控制整個內容,控制它,控制它,控制它。"},{"start":5335.239,"end":5343.626,"text":"有沒有完整的不是 第三條完整的喔 很長喔那沒有關係 你打"},{"start":5352.765,"end":5354.286,"text":"這第三條,完全的文字名"},{"start":5372.938,"end":5377.583,"text":"你已經整個完整了喔 那麼多自動愛學法第三條"},{"start":5414.248,"end":5415.069,"text":"因為剛才有同仁一直提到檢察官也就是說我的用語"},{"start":5428.82,"end":5435.433,"text":"得直接間接義扶社會勞動之自由行者這個判決法官下了以後"},{"start":5437.489,"end":5460.718,"text":"就直接找中選會要登記參選由中選會去認定他所受的刑自由刑是否是刑法41條第1項跟第3項的刑如果可以的話他就是得直接間接異乎社會勞動之自由刑責跟檢察官完全無關也就是拿到判決書法院判決書判了以後他拿這個判決書"},{"start":5462.099,"end":5476.314,"text":"到中選會登記要參選由中選會審查是否符合41條第一項第三項的問題跟檢察官的執行完全無關至於我剛才協商休息的時候我很不好意思有一點不高興這個我對"},{"start":5480.629,"end":5502.476,"text":"本院的同仁講話不符合法理我可以接受但是在場的法律人講話如果違反我國法制的法理我非常的難過我國法律裡面直接間接公司法必修的也有 知通法也有這個很多法制都有直接間接"},{"start":5503.976,"end":5522.45,"text":"那所以本人用直接間接就是說 41條第一項 刑法40條第一項那個是比較輕罪的 它是間接異乎社會勞動第三項是比較重罪的 它直接異乎社會勞動所以用直接間接是為了表示說 不是只有第三項可以"},{"start":5523.832,"end":5538.063,"text":"參選第一項比較輕的也可以參選我的用心是在這裡才會加一個直接間接那如果大家對直接間接有意見那我們直接就規定說得一幅社會勞動是自由行者這樣也可以但是這樣"},{"start":5539.364,"end":5552.527,"text":"會被人家誤以為只有第三項可以參選第一項不能參選所以我才會加入第一項直接、間接、義扶社會勞動的自由行者以上,謝謝各位謝謝徐中興委員的補充國民黨團請發言謝謝我們法學專業的各位委員所提出很多寶貴意見"},{"start":5566.016,"end":5581.03,"text":"我用一個人民比較聽都懂的話語來跟大家做一個報告基本上人民都很期待司法是公平的 天平是公平的"},{"start":5584.209,"end":5609.818,"text":"這個司法不應該成為政治的武器再三強調我就看一看我沒有像他們法律讀這麼多基本法學有但是並沒有這麼專業我就把一個時事讓全民來分享民眾黨黨主席柯文哲疑似政黨收取贊助款兩百萬"},{"start":5611.718,"end":5634.629,"text":"收押一年 判刑17年 沒有其他證據民進黨陳啟玉掏空台元幾十億 交保吳乃仁掏空台糖1.7億 居不到 具體居不到鄭文燦貪污 收500萬 押一個月周鐵潤疑是預備賄選罪 預備賄選罪"},{"start":5640.497,"end":5668.371,"text":"起訴書疑似買四張聯署書1234四張聯署書收押七個月判刑三年四個月再加上高環市長林志廟縣長楊文科縣長還有被大罷免的時候的謝國良市長還有竹帆不及被宰被起訴被偵辦被圍剿的在野黨立委"},{"start":5670.066,"end":5696.902,"text":"再加上剛剛要選屏東縣長的蘇清泉本來一場火災跟他沒有直接關係還起訴一年還起訴之後一年後現在改變法條重新再行起訴我想這個當司法成為政治的武器啊這絕對不是全民之福我們再看一看齁周點任"},{"start":5698.137,"end":5724.913,"text":"疑似埋收購預備會選罪收購四張聯署書判三年四個月我們也跟法務部司法院調了過去十年司法院的判決預備會選罪六個月以下包括醫科包括反省等等判決達到98%一年以下一年以下只有2%"},{"start":5727.062,"end":5748.284,"text":"但終點論被判三年四個月中華民國史上第一個 還收押七個月所以我要特別強調今天大家在這裡討論 還要回歸一點我覺得今天講得最清楚的最摸得良心在這裡的公務機關叫做中選會"},{"start":5751.192,"end":5778.399,"text":"他說這個基本上有沒有這個比例原則人民參政權是一個基本的權利到底有沒有什麼樣來繩之用什麼樣來壓制規範來沒收他的權利我想這個比例啊大家應該識度清楚那基本上國民黨是這樣我是把大家聽得懂的話把實務現在發生的事情時事讓大家來講好 謝謝"},{"start":5781.7,"end":5785.211,"text":"謝謝國民黨團副總召發言接下來我們請范雲委員發言范雲委員請"},{"start":5788.961,"end":5812.448,"text":"我想關於對司法的一個獨立性的不干預民進黨團的立場一向是不分黨派我們認為法律的公正性非常的重要今天這題的重點就是怎麼樣的人有參選資格我們討論的是這個部分大家都知道投票權跟被選舉權其實民眾的期待是不一樣的"},{"start":5813.548,"end":5834.211,"text":"我們上一波大家跨黨派一起支持的是說民眾期待要擔任公職的人標準應該要更高今天從莊瑞雄幹事長到我其實我們講的都是公平一致只要大家公平一致有共識的部分當然是可以的依照比例的放寬"},{"start":5835.072,"end":5847.564,"text":"可是如果不公平一致而且讓民眾認為這是不是為已經據說確定的一些就是政治人物量身打造我想這就會有很大的爭議那我們剛回來講剛剛講到的這個會選我個人也是覺得奇怪今天會選難道四張選票或者是聯署書"},{"start":5858.213,"end":5880.26,"text":"跟四百張比起來他就應該要四張的人有參選資格四百張的沒有參選資格嗎那我個人也是覺得不能接受因為要找到證據以我來看的話那詳細的部分我們就不評論了至少從我一個不懂法律的人來講的話我覺得會選就會選四張四百張那民眾自有看法"},{"start":5881.16,"end":5895.305,"text":"那回來講這個選務的部分我剛剛還沒有去質疑的一點就是今天如果他是被異服社會勞動如果今天是一個普通人他做得不好或做到一半不去做檢察官是可以把他撤銷資格的"},{"start":5896.545,"end":5900.991,"text":"可是今天如果他不是高宏安是某黨候選人選到一半然後選得很認真去跑選舉卻又沒有把他的社會勞動做好那被認為太惡劣那檢察官把他撤銷資格"},{"start":5912.345,"end":5938.672,"text":"不就變了一個壓力好像他在干預選舉因為他會失去了這個候選的身份那當然剛剛張瑞雄幹事長有跟我講說許委員非常的值得尊敬那我們也不希望您的名聲被影響所以我建議那要讓大家不懷疑的話那民眾黨是不是願意把選罷法26條你只要宣布就是你們在那邊訂的之後是9月4號之後三讀公佈"},{"start":5940.112,"end":5954.472,"text":"為什麼是9月4號因為9月4號是今年參選登記的最後一天那這個整個社會就會認為你們不是為了高鴻安量身定做因為既然是普遍性的話那你們就多寫就是說三讀"},{"start":5955.253,"end":5955.754,"text":"請問行政部門有沒有要補充的?"},{"start":5978.12,"end":5995.813,"text":"沒有要補充的好謝謝我們顯然我們黨團之間都沒有辦法達成共識好吧因此我現在要做以下的宣告我們黨團經過溝通之後並沒有達成共識本案的後續我們就照依照規定來辦理好不好我們現在來散會"},{"start":6022.09,"end":6022.57,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:02:12.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:02:21.084000+08:00","text":"非常感謝 3個黨團的幹部都已經到了現場，現在開始開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:02:21.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:02:28.010000+08:00","text":"我們要進行黨團協商，主題是「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:02:30.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:02:53.723000+08:00","text":"先介紹行政機關的列席代表，首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長，歡迎您；民政司鄭司長，歡迎您\n；中選會謝主任秘書，歡迎您；司法院民事廳林廳長，歡迎您；刑事廳吳法官，歡迎您；法務\n部代表李檢察官，歡迎您。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:02:58.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:03:13.006000+08:00","text":"要跟各位黨團幹部還有列席官員報告，本案內政委員會 115年 4月 23日召開第 11屆第 5會期\n第 8 次全體委員會議審查完竣，並決議院會討論前須交由黨團協商。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:03:14.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:03:35.415000+08:00","text":"本案於 115 年 5 月 19 日內\n政委員會廖先翔召集委員已經召開過一次協商會議，當日協商已具有共識部分：一、第六款增\n訂曾犯詐欺犯罪危害防制條例之罪，經有罪判決確定者不得參選之規定。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:03:37.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:03:54.596000+08:00","text":"二、第九款排除緩刑\n期間不得參選之規定，這個是重點──惟對於民眾黨黨團提案增列，排除受易刑處分者不得登\n記為候選人之限制，沒有達成共識。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:03:54.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:04:16.591000+08:00","text":"為節省各位黨團代表的寶貴時間，我們集中討論焦點、提升效率，在這裡建請各位黨團幹部\n，我們先行討論受易刑處分者是否排除限制之規定，如果大家對於已經有的共識部分還有意見\n的話，我們回頭繼續討論。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:04:16.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:04:20.814000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部，有沒有其他的意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:04:20.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:04:29.487000+08:00","text":"如果沒有其他的意見，就\n接受本席的建議，我們先討論民眾黨黨團提案這一部分。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:04:31.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:04:39.172000+08:00","text":"現在我們要請各列席的黨團代表，首\n先，台灣民眾黨黨團請表達意見，好嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:04:39.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:04:44.034000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:04:44.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:04:49.777000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長、主席，3 黨總召，以及部長、各位同仁。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:04:51.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:05:08.130000+08:00","text":"有關於台灣民眾黨就選舉罷免法\n第二十六條第九款，我們認為對於受緩刑宣告以及受易刑處分裡面的易服社會勞動者，應該要\n平等對待。","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:05:10.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:05:52.935000+08:00","text":"因為我們憲法第十七條保障人民的選舉權，法律上如果法官認為有褫奪公權之必要\n，已經有褫奪公權的可能，那麼法官沒有褫奪公權，結果我們用選罷法加以限制，在重罪還有\n一點解釋得過去，但是如果對於輕罪也不能讓他參選的話，這個會違反憲法第二十三條，對人\n民的選舉權等基本權之限制必須符合社會公共利益等必要，才比較合憲。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:05:54.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:06:18.397000+08:00","text":"本黨鑑於中華民國的法律體系，對於緩刑跟易服社會勞動都是平等對待，所以我今天特地把\n我國刑法跟政黨法相關條文的字體加黑，讓各位看得比較清楚，提出來請各位做參考。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:06:19.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:06:34.848000+08:00","text":"我根據\n這個順序跟各位報告，在我國刑法第七十四條第一項，受兩年以下有期徒刑之宣告者，可以緩\n刑，緩刑期間五年。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:06:36.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:06:53.364000+08:00","text":"而根據刑法第四十一條，輕罪五年以下，受六個月以下徒刑宣告，以及七\n協 2\n年以下的，也是受六個月以下徒刑的宣告。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:06:55.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:07:08.433000+08:00","text":"第四十一條是「易服社會勞動」，所以受二年以下\n宣告的是可以緩刑，而六個月以下的易服社會勞動。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:07:09.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:07:24.512000+08:00","text":"請各位看政黨法第七條，該條文對中華民國的政黨負責人有消極資格的限制，而這個資格限\n制裡面是把受緩刑宣告和易服社會勞動者平等對待。","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:07:25.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:07:48.970000+08:00","text":"所以根據中華民國的法律體系和原則，對\n受緩刑宣告跟易服社會勞動者其實是平等對待的，所以本黨才會在第九款的但書規定，除了緩\n刑以外，更有必要把易刑處分裡面的易服社會勞動予以納入。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:07:49.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:02.554000+08:00","text":"如果予以納入的話，可以讓我們\n的人民比較大幅度地回復他的選舉權，這樣才會使我們的選罷法比較符合憲法的要求。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:03.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:04.035000+08:00","text":"以上，\n謝謝各位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:04.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:07.364500+08:00","text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團許委員的發言。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:07.364500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:10.694000+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨黨團發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:10.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:14.023500+08:00","text":"民進黨黨團要先發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:14.023500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:17.353000+08:00","text":"好，范雲委員，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:17.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:19.854000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長召集今天這個會議。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:21.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:08:39.686000+08:00","text":"就如同剛剛院長講的，原本我們各黨團有共識的部分當然\n沒有爭議，現在有爭議的部分其實就是台灣民眾黨黨團 5 月 19 日想要增加的「或得直接、間接\n易服社會勞動之自由刑者」不在此限。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:08:40.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:09:04.630000+08:00","text":"民進黨黨團有三個理由反對，第一，政治上這樣很容易\n讓大家覺得這是為民眾黨的高虹安量身打造，因為他如果有罪判決確定，可能易服社會勞動，\n民眾黨是不是為了保他的參選資格而這麼緊急地量身打造，為個案修法？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:09:04.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:09:17.917000+08:00","text":"我覺得外界、廣泛的\n公民恐怕都沒有辦法接受這種大家沒有共識、明顯為個別政治人物量身打造的修法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:09:18.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:09:20.698000+08:00","text":"這是我們\n反對的第一個理由。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:09:21.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:09:49.010000+08:00","text":"除此之外，第二個理由是法律上會覺得民眾黨版的這個修正動議沒有辦法說服大家，民眾黨\n的第九款寫「或得直接、間接易服社會勞動」，但是據我瞭解，實務上根本就沒有「得直接」\n這件事，而且法院判決書上的文字不等於最終的結果，也就是說，決定能不能易刑的人是檢察\n官。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:09:49.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:19.720000+08:00","text":"民眾黨版希望讓被判可以做社會勞動的人也能登記參選，但能不能用勞動來代替坐牢，在\n法官判決的那一刻也無法百分之百確定，法官開出來的裁判書會寫「如准易科罰金」，至於易\n服社會勞動，法院的判決書上甚至連提都不會提到，等到判決確定後，個案去向地檢署報到時\n，最後把關決定准不准易服社會勞動的還是檢察官個案審查決定。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:23.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:27.422000+08:00","text":"所以你們寫的這個「或得直\n接、間接」，其實在法律……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:27.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:28.422000+08:00","text":"時間暫停。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:28.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:29.422000+08:00","text":"對不起，范委員，打岔一下，時間暫停……\nOK，沒事了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:29.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:30.422000+08:00","text":"我快講完了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:30.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:31.422000+08:00","text":"抱歉，打擾你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:31.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:32.422000+08:00","text":"范委員，請繼續。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:32.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:33.422000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:27.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:10:57.654000+08:00","text":"最後一點是這可能會造成實務上的選務混亂，因為即使被准易服社會勞動，如果個案不去做\n，或者是做得不好、太惡劣，然後檢察官又把他撤銷資格，個案最後還是有機會必須去坐牢。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:10:59.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:11:09.060000+08:00","text":"基於這樣的理由，如果個案因為被檢察官准易服社會勞動而登記成功，並開始跑選舉，結果被\n撤銷而去坐牢，那這個個案就會變成正在服刑期間，無法參選。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:11:09.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:11:10.461000+08:00","text":"我並不知道高虹安市長是不是\n協 3\n這樣的狀況，可是這裡面的變數很多，如果就照民眾黨版通過，在選舉實務上真的會造成很大\n的困擾。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:11:10.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:11:11.981000+08:00","text":"我想，選舉的公正、公平、公開是跨越政黨的，這是大家的核心共識，不能傷害這個\n部分。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T15:11:36.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:11:46.943000+08:00","text":"以上從第一，政治上大家覺得這是為個別政治人物量身打造，第二是法律上有不一致的問題\n，第三是可能造成選務混亂，民進黨黨團不贊成民眾黨這個修正動議。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:11:47.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:11:48.245000+08:00","text":"謝謝民進黨黨團書記長范雲委員的發言。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:11:48.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:11:50.226000+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨黨團發言，內政部劉部長請準備。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:02.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:02.884000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:03.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:42.928000+08:00","text":"其實今天我們修這個法，主要的原因也是因為時空環境已經跟過去以往非\n常不一樣，而且再加上我們在不預設立場的前提之下，我們現在看到的，從過去最近一波民調\n看到全民對於司法信心，民調顯示是極度不好的，所以在這種情況之下，當我們修法的時候，\n當然是要與時俱進，而且不要去預設立場，今天我們修的法是為了未來國家繼續發展一個很重\n要的基石，所以我認為該修的法，我們還是要從善如流，該修就要修。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:44.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:46.469000+08:00","text":"謝謝國民黨黨團表達立場。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:46.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:48.390000+08:00","text":"我們請劉部長，請表達意見好嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:49.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:49.831000+08:00","text":"請司法院準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:51.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:52.417000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長以及三個黨團的幹部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:12:52.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:12:56.300000+08:00","text":"今天我們來討論的部分，剛剛承院長的指示，我們只\n針對排除受易刑處分者不得參選的限制，站在內政部的立場，我們在內政委員會已經多次表達\n，希望維持現有的條文，不要再做更動。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:13:12.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:14:09.211000+08:00","text":"有幾個原因，剛剛各位已經知道，了解刑法或是了解\n其他易刑處分的部分，我們會認為因為易刑處分，譬如易科罰金或者易服社會勞動，僅是有期\n徒刑執行方式的替代手段，如果沒有執行完畢，本來我們就應該把它視為有期徒刑執行未畢，\n也就是未完畢，如果將它列入但書，而且允許可以登記為候選人，合理性有待商榷，也就是我\n們如果只有在選罷法裡面修正，真的是只有針對候選人本身條件的放寬，而不是剛剛有黨團幹\n部特別提到，包括刑法或是政黨法，全面性對於所謂易刑處分，做一個全面概括性的陳述，所\n以我們認為是有待商榷。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:14:09.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:14:31.941000+08:00","text":"另外一個，我們都知道，今年年底的大選是設在 11月 28日，現在距離\n11 月 28 日其實還不到半年的時間，我們現在如果倉促的修法通過，沒有像我們剛剛所說的，是\n不是回頭來看一下包括刑法、政黨法或是選罷法第二十六條？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:14:33.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:14:47.726000+08:00","text":"那麼會讓人覺得好像有點因人設\n事的感覺，所以站在行政機關比較保守的立場上面，我們希望能夠維持現行的規定，不要做任\n何改變，謝謝。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:14:48.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:14:51.507000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉部長表明內政部的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:14:51.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:14:56.108000+08:00","text":"接下來請司法院、法務部跟中選會依序來表達意見，好嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:14:56.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:15:00.049000+08:00","text":"我們先請司法院林廳長表達意見\n，法務部請準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:15:00.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:15:01.209000+08:00","text":"林廳長俊廷：主席、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:15:02.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:15:23.350000+08:00","text":"有關這個政策的立法方向，本院是尊重大院及主管機關內\n政部的規劃，但是就這個條文的設計，可能在司法審判實務上會引起一些疑義，有關這個部分\n，因為涉及到刑事審判實務，以下我們麻煩刑事廳的吳法官來說明。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:15:25.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:15:25.232000+08:00","text":"麻煩，請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:15:28.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:15:29.665000+08:00","text":"吳法官元曜：主席、各位委員、各位先進，大家好。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:15:30.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:15:34.629000+08:00","text":"司法院就易刑處分部分的主要意見如下，敬請\n協 4\n指教。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:15:35.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:24.514000+08:00","text":"即使法院判決宣告的自由刑可以受易刑處分，這邊包括易科罰金跟易服社會勞動，但是\n執行時，檢察官未必會維持易刑處分，這還是檢察官的裁量權，所以建請貴院先確認修法的原\n意為何，如果修法原意是只要法院宣告的自由刑可以「得受易刑處分」就可以了，實際上是否\n受易刑處分，還是自由刑的執行在所不論的話，則可規定為得易科罰金或易服社會勞動或得受\n易刑處分，但是如果修法原意是必須實際上受檢察官的易刑處分，而沒有執行自由刑才可以的\n話，則宜規定為「受易刑處分」，就沒有「得」字。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:25.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:26.876000+08:00","text":"修法原意為何呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:27.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:37.186000+08:00","text":"還有採用何種的法條文\n字，本院尊重立法院的決定，其餘部分煩請看今天本院所出具的書面報告，謝謝各位。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:38.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:38.647000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳法官。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:39.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:41.630000+08:00","text":"請法務部的李檢察官，請表達意見好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:41.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:41.930000+08:00","text":"法務部的立場。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:42.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:16:45.410000+08:00","text":"李檢察官芷琪：主席、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:16:45.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:17:12.104000+08:00","text":"我是法務部代表，關於這個提案的部分，首先就司法實\n務上跟諸位說明，就是法院判決的時候，如果是諭知六個月以下有期徒刑，那麼依照刑法第四\n十一條跟刑事訴訟法第三百零九條第二款規定，法院在主文就必須諭知易科罰金的一個折算標\n準，但這部分只是一個折算標準而已。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:17:13.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:17:52.597000+08:00","text":"至於能不能做易刑處分，是要到全案有罪判決確定之後\n，送到執行檢察官這邊依個案矯正的角度判斷，依照刑法第四十一條規定，在得易科罰金的個\n案，他會去看是不是有難收矯正之效或難以維持法秩序；或是在易服社會勞動的部分，也會參\n酌他的身心健康有沒有執行困難、難收矯正之效，或難以維持法秩序的情形來判斷，也就是說\n，雖然法院做了一個折算的標準，但是執行檢察官會就個案來決定適不適合做易科罰金或易服\n社會勞動的決定，這時候就會做一個易刑的處分。","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:17:53.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:18:48.445000+08:00","text":"但是大家需要注意的是，如果政策決定是要放在執行檢察官這邊，變成執行檢察官決定准或\n不准易刑處分，會直接連結到這一位當事人能不能夠參選，這樣的話，對執行檢察官來講，他\n要考慮的就沒那麼純粹了，他應該是要就當事人執行方面的矯正考量來做綜合判斷，而不是跟\n這個人是否可以參選直接掛勾，因為執行下去的結果，就是執行檢察官在決定要不要易刑處分\n的時候，直接連結到當事人未來能不能馬上參選，所以對執行檢察官來講，會變成有可能陷入\n這個政治漩渦裡面，對檢察官來講，這個決定不是很適當，也不是很妥適。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:18:48.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:01.049000+08:00","text":"另外，就當選人來講，參選是他的基本權，如果這個消極是對他基本權的限制，變成他參選\n與否，會繫於執行檢察官的決定，對當選人的參選權利來講，也是不公平。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:04.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:11.886000+08:00","text":"基於以上考量，我們是尊重主管機關的意見，建議大家再斟酌這個部分，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:15.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:32.106000+08:00","text":"謝謝李檢察官……\n李檢察官芷琪：不好意思，再補充一下，關於委員提到政黨法的部分，因為政黨法是政黨負責人，\n我們現在講的是公職人員選罷法，是公職，所以跟政黨的考量層面應該有點不一樣，也請大家\n再考慮一下，謝謝。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:32.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:33.887000+08:00","text":"謝謝李檢察官。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:34.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:35.368000+08:00","text":"麻煩請中選會謝主秘表達意見，謝謝。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"謝主任秘書美玲","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:38.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:40.385000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝主任秘書美玲","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:41.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:19:57.537000+08:00","text":"針對是不是排除受易刑處分或易服社會勞動者的參選，中選會\n認為這個涉及參選權的保障、限制參選的公益性，還有比例原則的考量，本會是尊重主管機關\n協 5\n內政部的意見。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"謝主任秘書美玲","start":"2026-06-11T15:19:57.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:20:04.442000+08:00","text":"另外，中選會是辦理選務的機關，也會依立法的結果辦理選務相關事項，以上\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:20:08.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:20:15.642000+08:00","text":"接下來二輪發言，哪一位黨團想要發言？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:20:15.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:20:19.523000+08:00","text":"請陳總召先發言，莊瑞雄幹事長請準備。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:20:20.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:20:22.324000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:20:22.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:21:20.359000+08:00","text":"今天我們針對選罷法第二十六條進行協商，討論的是有關易刑\n的部分，這邊我還是要先表明，剛剛民進黨委員特別表達說這有可能是政治上的量身打造，我\n想這個帽子扣得太大了，今天我們修這樣一個選罷法，主要針對的是各黨團曾經有一個共識，\n就是緩刑的部分，如果今天易服勞役、易刑的修法是為個人而做，那緩刑更是為政治上的考量\n而修法。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:21:21.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:22:03.537000+08:00","text":"在此我首先要表明，針對選罷法修法，我們考量的是人民參與選舉的權利，而不是為\n個別的對象來修法，所以我們不應該在這裡做這樣的爭辯，不然就倒退回來，包括貴黨委員也\n都有提出緩刑的部分可以參選，那易刑的部分就產生這樣的一個爭議，我想在這個部分，我要\n先表明。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:22:04.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:22:37.833000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛民進黨委員也表達說，易刑最後還是執行檢察官的裁量權，我想執行檢察官的\n裁量權就是執行檢察官的裁量權，它不應該跟受這樣判決，易服社會勞動這樣的一個……來把\n它作為政治選舉的考量。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:22:38.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:22:41.677000+08:00","text":"我們今天在修這個，我們針對法來修吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:22:42.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:22:58.267000+08:00","text":"而不是任何的動機都是要跟\n……執行檢察官可能要考量這個人要不要參選、可不可以參選、我要不要給他參選，不應該落\n入到這樣的迷思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:22:59.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:23:07.850000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨針對第二十六條有提出修正動議，目前也提供給各黨團來參考。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:23:07.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:23:47.843000+08:00","text":"我們在這裡的修\n正動議，是在第二十六條第九款之後增加「但宣告緩刑或得直接、間接易服社會勞動之自由刑\n者，不受此限」，這個「得」跟自由刑的「刑」，我們特別來做一個修正動議。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:23:49.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:24:13.991000+08:00","text":"在這裡我們還\n是強調，緩刑我們可以給它但書排除，而得直接或間接易服社會勞動，這個罪刑比較輕，那更\n應該要予以但書排除，保障我們所有公民參選成為候選人的權益。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-06-11T15:24:15.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:24:15.809000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:24:15.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:24:16.010000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳總召的發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:24:16.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:24:17.313000+08:00","text":"接下來請莊瑞雄幹事長發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:24:23.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:24:25.348000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:24:25.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:24:42.653000+08:00","text":"其實我看了今天的討論，各個政黨其實也都不敢講真話，最不敢講真話的\n就是中國國民黨，說因為社會公信力低落，我們要與時俱進，所以這個條文要把它修掉，這個\n道理、法理都不通。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:24:43.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:25:04.477000+08:00","text":"第二個就是許忠信委員所提供的，是我很尊敬的老大哥，但是我覺得你的\n法律也是沒有讀通，你看你講第七十四條的那個部分，你當然講說政黨法有其規定，現在的規\n定是怎麼樣，政黨法的規定比較古早，其實在上一屆，整個選罷法修正裡面，立法院只有我一\n個人反對，那時候你們都不聽我的，你們如果聽我的、支持我，今天都沒有這個問題。","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:25:23.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:25:48.913000+08:00","text":"輕罪說到底要不要拘束他的參選權，這個我一直都有意見，可是你們今天提出這個修法，我\n有一部分的部分……如果因為輕罪就說是不是可以讓他選，講得通，可是會產生一個衝突，就\n是說輕的人……譬如易刑，像高虹安是六個月，可以易科罰金，我跟你講那不是用輕重來看，\n我們選罷法的規定很多都是用罪名，你只要涉及到洗錢的話，判決三個月、四個月，你一樣不\n能選。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.312000+08:00","text":"洗錢防制有比你們判得還輕嗎？","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.452000+08:00","text":"你們高虹安判六個月耶！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.672000+08:00","text":"如果是判四個月的呢？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:01.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:03.953000+08:00","text":"我那邊\n協 6\n有很多原住民被人拿去洗錢……\n今天許忠信是老闆，我到你那邊找個工作，我帳本也給你了、身分證也給你了，你把我錄取\n了，你說要匯薪水給我，結果你把我的帳戶拿去洗錢，我根本就不知道啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:24.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:27.805000+08:00","text":"我發現以後，你還\n叫我「恬恬」，你會給我 1 萬塊，我很爽啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:27.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:31.613000+08:00","text":"老闆給我 1 萬塊，結果我變共犯，可是我犯罪情\n節輕微，被判四個月，「哭枵」！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:31.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:31.933000+08:00","text":"結果我變不能選了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:36.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:45.244000+08:00","text":"我們整部選罷法裡面其實我們是用罪名\n，所以很多邏輯不通的地方，本案我之所以反對是反對什麼？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:46.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:52.509000+08:00","text":"就是真的有我們范雲教授講的，\n有量身訂做的嫌疑。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:55.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:26:59.013000+08:00","text":"為什麼我們前面處理過以後，兩個其他的政黨也沒有反對啊？","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:26:59.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:00.514000+08:00","text":"那是大家都\n有共識的嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:01.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:08.438000+08:00","text":"針對前面提到緩刑可以……也就是第九款的緩刑宣告不在此限。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:08.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:21.708000+08:00","text":"針對選罷法第二\n十六條各黨團有共識的部分，你們也認為這個合理，為什麼會覺得合理的原因就是那個沒有針\n對特定人、還沒有產生啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:23.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:40.185000+08:00","text":"設假立法院的大家可能我跟許忠信吵架，我跟陳清龍兩人有私怨，結果我們兩、三人相互廝\n殺以後，法院看一看覺得你們這些立法委員的品性本來就不好，但是不懲罰一下也不行，那就\n判下去──緩刑，結果大家繼續可以參選，合理嗎？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:40.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:43.365000+08:00","text":"各黨派在立法院本來就常常會推來推去、\n罵來罵去。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:43.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:45.266000+08:00","text":"但現在這個不是這樣，現在的這個案子是，已經判下去以後，你們事後再推出來就\n真的會有這樣的疑慮。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:45.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:27:45.646000+08:00","text":"不然你整理得很好啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:27:45.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:06.172000+08:00","text":"你整理的中華民國刑法第七十四條裡面，你就把\n兩年以下的講了些什麼框起來，你也講到政黨法，可是提政黨法的話你就要想，那個時間是何\n時修的，我們上次修選罷法是何時？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:06.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:06.332000+08:00","text":"那時是 2023 年耶！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:09.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:13.455000+08:00","text":"這樣在時間上……因為你是教授，所以\n我必須跟你說理，就是這個原因。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:14.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:17.077000+08:00","text":"你們今天的講法全部都叫做欲蓋彌彰，你知不知道？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:17.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:18.658000+08:00","text":"你們要\n幹什麼人家怎麼會不知道？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:19.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:19.619000+08:00","text":"所以還是要反對一下，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:19.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.299000+08:00","text":"許忠信委員可以等一下發言，我相信你絕對不會洗錢的，好不好？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.439000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請發言好嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.619000+08:00","text":"好，許忠信委員請發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.799000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:20.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:45.764000+08:00","text":"這個是這樣的，剛才講得最專業的，也就是我們的刑事廳法官，他已經把\n問題點點出來了，也就是到底是哪兩種方式？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:28:47.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:28:59.460000+08:00","text":"本案的修正，我在內政委員會跟緩刑一起處理，\n本人支持緩刑是因為易刑處分改成易服社會勞動，我才支持緩刑的。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:29:00.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:29:06.605000+08:00","text":"如果易服社會勞動沒有同\n意，我就沒有同意緩刑，單獨同意緩刑的部分我沒有。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:29:07.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:29:27.656000+08:00","text":"我個人在內政委員會有跟各位報告，我\n把文字修成「得易服社會勞動之自由刑」，因為這有直接、間接，為了清楚我就增加了直接、\n間接，「得直接、間接易服社會勞動之自由刑」。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:29:28.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:29:37.078000+08:00","text":"這件事情跟檢察官沒關係，我不知道為什麼有人讀法律，會在這裡講跟檢察官的執行有關？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:29:38.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:29:50.521000+08:00","text":"法官宣告緩刑，法官宣告得直接、間接易服社會勞動之自由刑，完全是法官的職責，跟檢察官\n完全沒有關係。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:29:50.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:30:04.025000+08:00","text":"因為你們在司法界講話有影響力，但是我很遺憾，年輕的法官竟然會講這種沒\n有法學專業的言論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:30:04.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:30:18.585000+08:00","text":"本人修正的內容是「得直接、間接易服社會勞動之自由刑者」，也就是刑\n事廳法官剛才所講的兩種之一，那個就是我們出委員會的立法目的，以上跟各位做一個報告。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:30:18.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:30:41.911000+08:00","text":"至於，有沒有涵蓋到要去協助誰，本人今天是在進行中華民國刑法的修正、選罷法的修正，\n所以我們今天要對這個國家負責，我們要把輕罪者一體適用，回歸到憲法保障他的選舉權。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:30:41.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:05.834000+08:00","text":"而\n我們中華民國的法秩序對於判緩刑者、易服社會勞動者，在政黨法是對等對待的，我們現在對\n協 7\n於兩年以下緩刑的可以讓他參選，六個月以下可易服社會勞動的卻不能參選，這要如何跟外頭\n顯示，我們立法院所立的法是專業的立法？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:06.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:07.717000+08:00","text":"沒辦法跟外頭交代。以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:11.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:12.633000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:12.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:15.294000+08:00","text":"許委員，這就是剛才我跟你說的啊！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:15.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:21.095000+08:00","text":"輕罪我贊同，但是你們特別挑這個出\n來，我就認為是量身訂做啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:22.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:26.037000+08:00","text":"你把我的話聽完，若說輕罪的也全部都不行，這樣社會也接受喔\n！","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:27.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:30.238000+08:00","text":"代表立法院有一個標準，輕罪的全部都不可以。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:31.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:33.599000+08:00","text":"如果像重罪的可以選，輕罪的不能選，那我\n第一個就覺得不合理啊！","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:36.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:40.692000+08:00","text":"我第一個的想法就是這樣子，所以邏輯上要講的話，我們就要講清楚\n喔！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:41.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:43.516000+08:00","text":"你把整個選罷法第二十六條拿出來大翻修，是不是這樣說？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:43.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:44.177000+08:00","text":"你送了個罪名給他，說這個罪\n名很齷齪、很討厭這樣而已，但判下來就是判得很輕啊！","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:52.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:52.377000+08:00","text":"過幾天會碰到什麼狀況，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:52.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:53.318000+08:00","text":"我用許忠信的話質疑許忠信，高虹安判六個月，為什麼判六個月的可以參選，人家判四個月的\n不能參選？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:53.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:53.618000+08:00","text":"我用這個質疑你就好了，會有這樣的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:54.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:55.380000+08:00","text":"不是說你的法理不對，你的法理不一致\n，為什麼會不一致？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:55.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:31:56.661000+08:00","text":"就是眼睛稍微矇蔽了，就為了某些人，稍微蓋起來一下，我的意思就在這\n個地方。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:31:56.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:32:18.178000+08:00","text":"不然，你講得有道理，但是你的道理就講了一半，沒有講出來你的心裡要幹什麼，我\n幫你講出來而已。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:32:18.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:32:18.419000+08:00","text":"你這樣的修法到最後會變成更輕的反而不可以參選。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:32:29.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:32:47.839000+08:00","text":"你要舉例的就是你被判\n六個月以下，甚至於兩年以下判緩刑的可以去參選，譬如我們被判兩年，法院給緩刑，我們都\n去參選了，你現在講判六個月的為什麼不能參選，有沒有道理？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:32:48.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:32:49.079000+08:00","text":"有，有道理。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:32:49.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:32:56.302000+08:00","text":"可是你接下來會\n碰到一個挑戰，為什麼判六個月的跑去參選了，判四個月的不能參選，你告訴我法理在哪裡？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:32:58.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:09.094000+08:00","text":"我是說大教授要談事情要一併談，要一併來做解決，你專門挑一個出來，我就挑戰你，你就是\n量身訂做，會碰到這樣一個問題。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:09.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:10.816000+08:00","text":"第二個問題會碰到什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:10.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:14.940000+08:00","text":"就是我們的法律用語哪有什麼「直接」、「間接」？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:18.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:29.613000+08:00","text":"你讀法律的\n，我也讀法律的，我就沒看過這個用語，或得直接、間接易服勞役，就是我們的法律上沒有這\n樣的用語，刑法上也沒有這樣的用語。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:30.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:38.321000+08:00","text":"要把它另闢一個新名詞，也許許忠信委員這個是法學的\n創見，也很好，也許真的會！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:38.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:40.721000+08:00","text":"可是為什麼就偏偏碰在這個時機點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:40.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:42.262000+08:00","text":"你解釋不了，我沒有騙你。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:42.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:33:44.502000+08:00","text":"就選罷法這個修法，我覺得大家不用這樣劍拔弩張，大家要做什麼明講沒關係，讓社會大眾\n來檢驗。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:33:44.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:34:11.656000+08:00","text":"輕罪的，不用去限制他參選，憲法保障人民參選的權利，就是對於選罷法第二十六條\n規定的那些重罪的或者判重刑的，不得讓他去參選，罪名就那些，我們看前面的那些都很嚴重\n，甚至接下來到第七款、第八款，我們這次修第九款。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:34:11.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:34:13.618000+08:00","text":"重罪不參選，社會有共識了，到緩刑，\n大家認為判緩刑是輕罪，也沒關係，讓他可以參選，再網開一面。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:34:13.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:34:42.899000+08:00","text":"不然，理論上來講，我們在\n這邊講，院長，你一定碰到很多人跟你陳情，我們怎麼會沒有收到陳情，很多人是當了五屆、\n當了六屆、當了七屆了，突然立法院一個修法以後，說他終身不得參選，立法院去做這種決定\n也很奇怪！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:34:42.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:34:45+08:00","text":"至於行政機關，內政部也好、中選會也好，這是立法院往前進的一個方向，他遵守\n我們立法的方向，說國家社會要往前進了。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:34:45.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:07.630000+08:00","text":"可是我們現在又抽出某一種態樣出來，我就覺得比\n較奇怪一點。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:08.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:09.412000+08:00","text":"明講沒關係，我知道你們要做什麼，但是大家講清楚，否則，你挑戰緩刑的，變\n成四個月的挑戰六個月易刑的。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:20.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:38.089000+08:00","text":"你們的高虹安被判六個月，這個修了之後，他可以選，當然就\n變成可以選，合理，我再來請教，接下來如果碰到一個判四個月的，他會跟你說，為什麼高虹\n協 8\n安可以參選，他被判四個月的不能參選？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:38.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:42.432000+08:00","text":"許忠信大教授，換你解釋給我聽，你如果要這樣修的\n話，會碰到這個問題。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:42.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:43.432000+08:00","text":"院長，我能不能……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:43.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:44.432000+08:00","text":"可以，當然可以，稍微等一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:44.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:45.432000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，國民黨，要等一下……他們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:44.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:46.053000+08:00","text":"請問一下行政部門列席的，不用客氣，哪一位要發言？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:35:46.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:35:46.994000+08:00","text":"請司法院吳法官。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:36:07.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:36:10.698000+08:00","text":"吳法官元曜：主席、各位委員，各位先進。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:36:10.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:36:38.430000+08:00","text":"本院就「直接」、「間接」這個用語再補充表示一個意\n見，因為學術上有可能做此等分類，但實務上對「直接」、「間接」這樣的用語是比較陌生，\n所以理解上可能會有困難，而且不管是直接還是間接，他如果都是得易服社會勞動這個結果的\n話，好像沒有特別記載「直接」、「間接」這個用語的必要性，以上稍作補充，謝謝各位。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:36:38.430000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:36:52.209000+08:00","text":"謝謝司法院補充，請法務部。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:36:52.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:36:52.770000+08:00","text":"李檢察官芷琪：主席、委員好。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:36:53.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:37:41.996000+08:00","text":"關於這條條文，剛才看到修正動議的部分，對於一個部分我有點疑\n慮，因為上面是寫易服社會勞動，但是依照刑法第四十一條，第一個部分是法院主文只會諭知\n得易科罰金的折算標準，他是完全不會出現易服社會勞動的，易服社會勞動是要到執行檢察官\n這邊才會知道他適不適合易服社會勞動，比如他可以易科罰金，但他不聲請，他可能沒有錢或\n是有其他的考量，他不要易科罰金，他跟檢察官申請易服社會勞動，這樣的話不知道有沒有符\n合這個法條的用語，因為法條是寫得易服社會勞動的自由刑，但是法院並不會宣告這個部分。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:37:42.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:38:07.627000+08:00","text":"另外，或是他有刑法第四十一條第四項的狀況，他有一些身心健康之類的狀況，沒有辦法執\n行易服社會勞動，所以我的意思是，法院只會給易科罰金的折算標準，至於能不能易服社會勞\n動要到執行檢察官這邊才會知道，這個是實務上的一個疑慮，謝謝。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:38:10.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:38:13.349000+08:00","text":"許委員，稍待一下，內政部跟中選會要不要補充一下？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:38:13.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:38:18.139000+08:00","text":"請劉部長，許委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:38:18.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:38:29.042000+08:00","text":"剛剛司法院跟法務部的幾位都表達立場，針對民眾黨黨團修正動議條文，我們跟我們\n自己的官員討論過，也是會有這樣的疑慮。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:38:29.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:38:44.207000+08:00","text":"第一個，不曉得「直接」跟「間接」是指什麼意思\n，對於直接跟間接，你如果沒有做比較完整的解釋的話，其實站在我們第一線，要把法條拿來\n當成執行層面，確實會有困難。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:38:44.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:09.236000+08:00","text":"第二個就是剛剛所說的，按照剛剛幾位法學先進所提的部分，\n如果你讓檢察官在個案判斷上面的話，他一定會碰到選舉期間跟非選舉期間，會落入這樣政治\n上的爭議，我們從來都不希望檢察官落入這樣的爭議，因為選舉就是選舉的議題，那個是政黨\n之間競爭的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:09.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:24.886000+08:00","text":"所以我們覺得，第一個，一定要先了解民眾黨黨團的修正動議是指什麼意思\n，到底要做什麼事情，如果沒有講清楚、說明白的話，站在行政機關在執行的層面上，一定會\n出現很多的漏洞，謝謝。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:26.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:26.667000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉部長補充。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:26.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:28.328000+08:00","text":"中選會要不要補充？沒有。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:28.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:31.770000+08:00","text":"許委員請繼續發言，您發言之後，我們將會休息 10分鐘。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:32.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:34.192000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:34.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:39:48.482000+08:00","text":"有關於「直接」、「間接」，我們數位發展部主管的資通法裡面明明就有\n協 9\n「直接」、「間接」的用語，各位可以查一下，資通法有「直接」、「間接」。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:39:50.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:40:27.841000+08:00","text":"第二點，有關\n於莊瑞雄戰友他所講的四個月以下的問題，謝謝你作球給我，六個月以下不是為高虹安，是因\n為刑法第四十一條，刑法第四十一條規定的易服社會勞動，在第一項六個月以下有期徒刑可以\n宣告易服社會勞動；第三項也是六個月以下可以易服社會勞動，他的執行期間只有在一年內，\n所以我是從第四十一條得到六個月，從第四十一條就可以得到。","quality":0.801},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:40:31.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:41:09.685000+08:00","text":"剛才檢察官講到檢察官執行的問題，你沒有看懂我的修正案，也就是得直接、間接易服社會\n勞動之自由刑，這是法官宣告的刑，他的刑如果符合第四十一條第一項、第三項，就是可以讓\n他回復參選，所以法官宣告的刑如果是第四十一條第一項跟第三項的自由刑，根據第四十一條\n第一項、第三項就得直接、間接易服社會勞動。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:41:10.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:41:36.912000+08:00","text":"本席所提出來的完全符合中華民國法秩序，也可以讓各位做挑戰，今天有錄音、錄影，我也\n要回成大面對我的法學界，所以我所講的完全是符合中華民國法秩序，我敢在這裡用我的學術\n來跟各位講說，「直接」、「間接」在我國法律上不是只有學理而已，而是我們的資通法就有\n「直接」、「間接」的用語。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:41:37.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:41:55.775000+08:00","text":"至於剛才那個四個月的，我就是要修法讓他可以選，到六個月以\n下都可以選，並沒有說六個月可以，四個月以下不行，所以你要看刑法第四十一條的第一項跟\n第三項。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:41:55.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:42:33.665000+08:00","text":"這個是有關法官宣告的刑──自由刑，我沒有去講到罰金刑，我只講自由刑，也就是\n拘役或是六個月以下的自由刑，沒有講到罰金刑，這是本人提出的，之前在內政委員會協商沒\n有成功，才送到這裡來協商的，所以我們現在也沒辦法直接只對緩刑來處理，因為當時在一讀\n的時候，就是包在一起送到這裡協商，也不可能只有通過緩刑，因為立法程序上不能允許這樣\n子。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:42:37.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:42:41.063000+08:00","text":"謝謝許委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:42:41.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:42:42.683000+08:00","text":"莊委員，你要繼續？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:42:42.683000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:42:47.104000+08:00","text":"你講完我們就休息好不好？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:42:47.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:10.615000+08:00","text":"許忠信委員，不是在質疑你，我是拿這個案例，對於你這樣的修法跟我們之所以在緩\n刑的時候，各個政黨大家有共識，易刑處分出來以後，會變成反而在這個地方在論戰，我是在\n指出這個原因，否則你說緩刑跟易刑處分，當然都屬於輕罪嘛！","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:11.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:15.180000+08:00","text":"但是輕罪的部分是不是就一定\n要完全剝奪他參選的權利？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:15.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:20.905000+08:00","text":"以我個人的主張，這就很清楚嘛！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:21.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:24.267000+08:00","text":"我認為既然是輕罪，你限制他這\n個做什麼？","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:24.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:29.889000+08:00","text":"但是這會碰到一個問題，就是這個案件裡面的時間點你們就講不清楚。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:30.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:39.352000+08:00","text":"第二個，其\n實我覺得必須要再去探討一個地方，任何的易刑處分，你知道易刑處分會遇到什麼問題嗎？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:39.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:53.103000+08:00","text":"假\n設我當法官，我把這個案子宣判下去以後，我把它宣告可以有易刑處分的話，會變成對確定判\n決的被告來講，他是取得一個聲請的權利而已喔！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:53.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:43:55.085000+08:00","text":"所以到最後在執行的時候會遇到誰，你知道\n嗎？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:43:55.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:44:19.942000+08:00","text":"真的遇到檢察官，兩個人有夠倒楣，我們兩個人手牽手，這只是假設，我們兩個當然不會\n去犯罪，如果我們犯罪然後出來之後，我們去到檢察官那裡，他說，許忠信長得胖胖的，比較\n可愛，得易刑處分、得易科罰金；莊瑞雄看起來比較兇一點，就把我駁回，結果你可以參選，\n我不可以參選，這樣也怪！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:44:21.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:44:35.495000+08:00","text":"所以我才跟你建議，要嘛你就大修，你一大修，各個政黨大家都沒有意見，但是你把這個挑\n出來，我怎麼看就是覺得……你看范雲看過去就覺得是高虹安，對不對？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:44:35.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:44:38.918000+08:00","text":"只有你們看起來不是\n協 10\n，覺得這個是為普羅大眾，不是！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:44:40.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:44:44.062000+08:00","text":"時間點怪，所以我才跟你們說，你們要修是為了什麼，我怎\n麼會不知道呢？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:44:44.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:45:10.988000+08:00","text":"你們如果起心動念是按照你剛剛那個法理來講，那是要把整部選罷法重修，輕\n罪的部分，第九款要怎麼去做刪除；前面六款的重罪，甚至於有些都不是重罪的，重罪可以選\n，但輕罪不能選，這個是我最在意的，是站在一個法的衡平性。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:45:11.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:45:13.048000+08:00","text":"許教授，我這樣講應該合理吧\n？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:45:13.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:45:40.061000+08:00","text":"我挑戰你，不是說你說的不對，而是你提出的這個時間點，然後抽出這麼一塊，跟過往大家\n的論述……你們再講下去就難聽了，你們再講下去，等一下說你們在交易、在交換，所以你講\n的這個哪叫法理，如果要講法理的話，我們就全套都來講法理，輕罪、可以選的，大家有一致\n性；低於那個重罪、看誰可以選的，低於它的大家全部都可以選，這樣才合理。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:45:40.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:45:57.575000+08:00","text":"至於可不可以\n選，那不能由檢察官來做決定，明明許忠信和我莊瑞雄兩個是一起出來，結果檢察官看到許忠\n信就說，許忠信看起來可愛，對社會沒有傷害；莊瑞雄看起來難收矯正之效，然後繼續不能參\n選。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:45:57.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:03.379000+08:00","text":"天底下哪有這種事情！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:03.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:21.526000+08:00","text":"因為我已經拿我自己下來舉例了，對於這個選罷法，我們從地方基層來，我們怎麼會不懂，\n所以我的意思是，要把它修得公平性、把它修得一體性，如果只針對個案的，我去反對這個比\n較有意義啦！","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:22.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:22.886000+08:00","text":"只是你們要什麼，你們就講沒關係，然後面對社會檢驗。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:28.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:34.853000+08:00","text":"你們就說，我們就要這\n樣做，我們就真的為了高虹安來，我們覺得這個是輕罪，要把它修掉。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:35.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:38.875000+08:00","text":"你就大膽講，我可以跟\n你說，因為你是個案，我反對！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:38.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:42.417000+08:00","text":"我只能跟你講這樣而已，不然法理上我不認為不通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:43.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:49.855000+08:00","text":"但是我們\n立法院是這樣子，立法院如果因為個案這樣進來以後，會亂掉啦！真的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:50.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:46:57.163000+08:00","text":"你不能為了要拿到你\n們想要的，認為我們坐在這裡聽你們說了一堆之後就會說：是，好崇拜你，不是！","quality":0.675},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-11T15:46:57.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:01.487000+08:00","text":"崇拜你的法\n學素養，但是這次的修法動機不單純。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:03.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:04.267000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:05.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:15.476000+08:00","text":"等一下休息 10 分鐘，請各黨團還有行政官員好好把握這黃金的 10 分鐘，10 分鐘之後，我們\n要宣告……休息，你可以溝通，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:15.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:18.979000+08:00","text":"如果休息之後你還想發言，可以繼續發言，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:18.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:20.120000+08:00","text":"我\n希望你們能夠多多溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:20.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:21.201000+08:00","text":"我們休息 10分鐘，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:21.201000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:38.703000+08:00","text":"休息（15時 47分）\n繼續開會（16時）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:38.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:47:56.205000+08:00","text":"會議繼續進行。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:47:56.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:48:13.707000+08:00","text":"接下來請許忠信委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T15:48:13.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T15:48:31.209000+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T15:48:31.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T15:49:02.270000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T16:00:36.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:01:19.377000+08:00","text":"因為剛才有同仁一直提到檢察官，也就是我的用語「得直接、間接易服社\n會勞動之自由刑者」，法官下了這個判決以後，就直接找中選會要登記參選，由中選會認定他\n所受的自由刑是否是刑法第四十一條第一項跟第三項的刑，如果可以的話，他就是「得直接、\n間接易服社會勞動之自由刑者」，跟檢察官完全無關。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T16:01:19.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:01:33.689000+08:00","text":"也就是拿到法院判的判決書以後，他拿\n這個判決書到中選會要登記參選，由中選會審查是否符合第四十一條第一項、第三項的問題，\n跟檢察官的執行完全無關。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T16:01:33.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:01:55.153000+08:00","text":"至於剛才協商休息的時候，很不好意思，我有一點不高興，對本院\n的同仁講話不符合法理，我可以接受，但是在場的法律人，講話如果違反我國法制的法理，我\n非常的難過。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T16:01:55.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:02:30.796000+08:00","text":"我國法律裡面的「直接、間接」，公司法必修的也有，資通法也有，很多法制都\n協 11\n有「直接、間接」，所以本人用「直接、間接」就是說刑法第四十一條第一項是比較輕罪的，\n他是間接易服社會勞動；第三項是比較重罪的，他直接易服社會勞動，所以用「直接、間接」\n是為了表示不是只有第三項可以參選，第一項比較輕的也可以參選，我的用心是在這裡，才會\n加「直接、間接」。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T16:02:31.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:02:50.566000+08:00","text":"如果大家對「直接、間接」有意見，那我們就直接規定「得易服社會勞動\n之自由刑者」這樣也可以，但是這樣會被人家誤以為只有第三項可以參選，第一項不能參選，\n所以我才會加入第一項「直接、間接易服社會勞動之自由刑者」。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-11T16:02:51.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:02:52.106000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝各位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:02:53.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:02:53.406000+08:00","text":"謝謝許忠信委員的補充。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:02:53.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:02:53.506000+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團發言。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:02:53.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:03:12.961000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位具法學專業的委員提出很多的寶貴意見，我用人民比較聽得懂的話語跟大家\n報告。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:03:16.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:03:31.291000+08:00","text":"基本上，人民都很期待司法是公平的，天平是公平的，司法不應該成為政治的武器，我\n要再三強調。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:03:31.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:03:42.314000+08:00","text":"我就看一看，我沒有像他們法律讀這麼多，雖然有基本法學，但是並沒有這麼專\n業，我就把一個時事跟全民分享。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:03:44.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:05:11.157000+08:00","text":"民眾黨黨主席柯文哲疑似收取政黨贊助款 200 萬，收押一年\n，判刑十七年，沒有其他證據；民進黨陳啟昱掏空台鹽幾十億交保；吳乃仁掏空台糖 1.7 億，拘\n提拘不到，鄭文燦貪污收 500 萬，押一個月；周典論疑似預備賄選罪，起訴書提到疑似買 4 張\n連署書，1、2、3、4，共 4 張連署書，收押七個月，判刑三年四個月；再加上高虹安市長、林\n姿妙縣長、楊文科縣長，還有被大罷免的時候的謝國樑市長，還有族繁不及備載被起訴、被偵\n辦、被圍剿的在野黨立委；再加上剛剛要選屏東縣長的蘇清泉，本來一場火災跟他沒有直接關\n係，緩起訴一年，緩起訴一年後，現在改變法條，重新再行起訴。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:05:11.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:05:15.900000+08:00","text":"我想當司法成為政治的武器\n，這絕對不是全民之福。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:05:17.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:05:54.608000+08:00","text":"我們再看一看，周典論疑似預備賄選罪，收購 4 張連署書，判三年四個月，我們也跟法務部\n、司法院調了過去十年司法院的判決，預備賄選罪六個月以下，包括易科、緩刑等等，判決達\n到 98%，一年以下只有 2%，但周典論被判三年四個月，中華民國史上第一個，還收押七個月。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:05:56.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:06:22.574000+08:00","text":"所以我要特別強調，今天大家在這裡討論還要回歸一點，我覺得今天講得最清楚的、最摸著良\n心在這裡的公務機關叫做中選會，他說這個基本上有沒有比例原則，人民參政權是一個基本的\n權利，到底有沒有什麼樣來繩之？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:06:23.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:06:26.395000+08:00","text":"用什麼樣來壓制規範，來沒收他的權利？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-06-11T16:06:28.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:06:40.399000+08:00","text":"我想這個比例大家\n應該適度清楚，基本上國民黨是這樣，我是把大家聽得懂的話，把實務現在發生的事情、時事\n讓大家來講，好，謝謝。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:06:43.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:06:44.884000+08:00","text":"謝謝國民黨黨團傅總召發言。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:06:45.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:06:45.887000+08:00","text":"接下來，我們請范雲委員發言，還是莊瑞雄？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:06:46.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:06:47.211000+08:00","text":"范雲委員請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:06:50.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:07:23.517000+08:00","text":"我想關於對司法獨立性的不干預，民進黨團的立場一向是不分黨派，我們認為法律的公\n正性非常重要，今天這題的重點就是怎麼樣的人有參選資格，我們討論的是這個部分，大家都\n知道投票權跟被選舉權，其實民眾的期待是不一樣的，我們上一波大家跨黨派一起支持的是說\n民眾期待要擔任公職的人，標準應該要更高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:07:24.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:07:48.523000+08:00","text":"今天從莊瑞雄幹事長到我，其實我們講的都是公\n平一致，只要大家公平一致，有共識的部分，當然是可以依照比例放寬，可是如果不公平一致\n，而且讓民眾認為，這是不是為了已經據說是確定的一些政治人物量身打造，我想這就會有很\n協 12\n大的爭議。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:07:48.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:08:07.075000+08:00","text":"我們回來講，剛剛講到的賄選，我個人也是覺得奇怪，今天談到賄選，難道 4 張選票或者是\n連署書，跟 400張比起來，就應該要 4張的人有參選資格，400張的人沒有參選資格嗎？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:08:07.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:08:22.240000+08:00","text":"我個人\n也是覺得不能接受，因為要找到證據，以我來看的話，詳細的部分我們就不評論了，至少從我\n一個不懂法律的人來講的話，我覺得賄選就賄選，4 張或 400 張，民眾自有看法。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:08:23.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:08:59.426000+08:00","text":"回來講選務的\n部分，我剛剛還沒有去質疑的一點就是今天如果他是被易服社會勞動，如果今天是一個普通人\n，他做得不好或做到一半不去做，檢察官是可以把他撤銷資格的，可是今天如果他不是高虹安\n，是某黨候選人，選到一半，選得很認真去跑選舉，最後沒有把他的社會勞動做好，被認為太\n惡劣，檢察官把他撤銷資格不就面臨一個壓力，好像他在干預選舉，因為他會失去候選的身分\n。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:09:01.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:09:23.334000+08:00","text":"剛剛莊瑞雄幹事長跟我講許委員非常值得尊敬，我們也不希望您的名聲被影響，所以我建議\n要讓大家不懷疑的話，民眾黨是不是願意把選罷法第二十六條，你只要宣布你們在那邊訂的是 9\n月 4 號之後三讀公布，為什麼是 9 月 4 號？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:09:23.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:09:35.791000+08:00","text":"因為 9 月 4 號是今年參選登記的最後一天，那麼整\n個社會就會認為你們不是為了高虹安量身訂做，因為既然是普遍性的話，你們就多寫三讀公布\n的時間在 9 月 4 號之後。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-11T16:09:35.791000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T16:09:37.253000+08:00","text":"我想最後的方式可能就是藍白一起表決通過，我們為了許教授、許委\n員的名聲，莊幹事長認為你的名聲值得保護，是不是就接受我們的建議？","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:09:37.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:09:37.733000+08:00","text":"謝謝，請問行政部門有沒有要補充的？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:10:00.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:10:00.580000+08:00","text":"（無）沒有要補充。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:10:02.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:10:16.231000+08:00","text":"顯然黨團之間都沒有辦法達成共識，因此我現在作以下宣告：黨團經過溝通之後並沒有達成\n共識，本案後續就依照規定來辦理。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:10:17.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-11T16:10:17.813000+08:00","text":"我們現在散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-11T16:10:18.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-11T16:10:19.455857+08:00","text":"散會（16時 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