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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":732.421,"end":733.248,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1470.503,"end":1497.801,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨洁"},{"start":1504.25,"end":1504.351,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1579.936,"end":1592.645,"text":"好我們現在開始開會請主秘報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數好那我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1595.646,"end":1624.254,"text":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第17次協定委員會議事錄時間115年6月10日星期三9時至11時7分115年6月11日星期四9時至11時27分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員鄭天才等13人請教委員1人列席委員賴慧媛等5人列席人員115年6月10日星期三農業部部長陳俊記等115年6月11日星期四經濟部常務次長賴建信等主席召集委員邱志偉"},{"start":1626.215,"end":1646.209,"text":"115年6月10日星期三報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算分業部分關於農業部主管農業作業基金農田水利事業作業基金農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金決議並農業部主管一作業基金農業作業基金"},{"start":1649.063,"end":1661.211,"text":"業務計劃 因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等相致審查結果推動調整業務收支 因業務總收入515,529萬6千元照列2 業務總支出616,710萬1千元照列3 本期轉促1億1180萬5千元照列截角公布金額"},{"start":1670.26,"end":1691.469,"text":"轉投資計畫均無劣數固定資產建設改善擴充2億164萬7千元造劣國庫增撥基金額及補辦預算均無劣數通過決議15項二 作業基金農田水利事業作業基金業務計畫因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改善擴充及資金運用等項目審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":1692.925,"end":1701.172,"text":"業務收支依業務總收入123億1734萬7千元造列業務總支出132億8864萬4千元造列本期短處9億7131萬7千元造列結繳公庫金額轉投資計劃均無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充92億9763萬4千元造列國庫增波基金額63億2820萬元造列補辦預算資金轉投資收回680萬元造列"},{"start":1721.548,"end":1736.558,"text":"通過決議13項 三 特別收入基金 農業特別收入基金業務計畫依依據基金來源用途審查結果隨動調整依依基金來源520億999萬2000元造列基金用途678億3553萬1000元造列本期短處158億2553萬9000元造列結繳公庫無劣數 補半算3677萬5000元造列"},{"start":1749.195,"end":1765.002,"text":"通過決議四十一項四 信託基金 農民兌貸基金基金運用計畫依依據收支逾出撥補等項之審查結果隨動調整總收入十一一千三百三十九萬元照列總支出兩百七十七萬三千元照列"},{"start":1765.842,"end":1793.744,"text":"本期勝於111061萬7千元造列通過決議六項115年6月11日星期四討論四項繼續審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣中有股份緯線公司台灣自來水股份緯線公司決議假經濟部主管因台灣中有股份緯線公司因為計劃因依據營業收支生產成本轉投資壯大之建設事業及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":1795.03,"end":1803.237,"text":"營業收支1億營業總收入1兆1846億3728萬1千元兆列營業總支出不含所得稅費用1兆1766億3728萬1千元兆列稅前經歷80億元兆列生產成本隨同營業總支出審查結果調整轉投資計畫增加投資19億9066萬3千元兆列重大制建設事業515億5776萬4千元兆列"},{"start":1820.411,"end":1832.88,"text":"資金醫藥因依據營業收支、生產成本、營歸撥補、轉投資及創造之建設事業等信用之審查結果隨同調整補辦預算固定資產之建設改良擴充181億8300萬元資金之轉投資增加39億8497萬4千元造列"},{"start":1839.687,"end":1849.796,"text":"通過決議98項二 台灣自來所股份有限公司業務計劃應依據營業收支、生產成本、轉投資、壯大之建設事業及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":1851.753,"end":1858.8,"text":"營業收支1億營業總收入341億4142萬2千元造列營業總支出不含所得稅費用410億5630萬2千元造列稅前競損69億1488萬元造列生產成本隨同營業總支出審查結果調整轉投資計劃無列數重大之建設事業原列255億2170萬元減列固定資產建設改良擴充"},{"start":1877.025,"end":1901.676,"text":"6億7千萬元 科目自行調整 區域均造列改列額248億5170萬元資金應用 因依據營業收支 生產成本 盈虧撥補轉投資及狀態之建設事業等項是審查結果隨同調整補辦預算 固定資產之建設改單擴充9198萬2000元造列通過決議78項主席宣告 本次會議通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員整理 散會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1906.257,"end":1922.127,"text":"好我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算分一部分關於經濟部主管經濟作業基金水資源作業基金經濟特別收入基金及核能發電後端營運基金宣傳筆"},{"start":1927.554,"end":1956.024,"text":"好那我介紹一下在場的委員有賴瑞榮委員那我們的列席的機關首長包含經濟部部長龔明星工部長產業園區管理局局長楊志清水利署署長林元鵬國際貿易署署長劉威廉能源署署長吳志偉中小集星創企業署署長李冠志"},{"start":1958.117,"end":1982.23,"text":"台灣電力公司副總經理徐永輝行政院主計總處基金預算處科長王沛山本日議程排定詢答115年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部主管非營業基金等預算案我們請經濟部公民心部長報告時間大概6分鐘"},{"start":1992.447,"end":2007.828,"text":"主席各位先進大家早安那今天貴委員會審查本部所主管的非營業特種基金115年度的預算案個人請就各項的預算編列的重點摘要向各位委員來做報告"},{"start":2008.669,"end":2034.577,"text":"那首先第一項是經濟作業的基金那這個部分有關於是科學產業園區以及產業園區管理相關的基金那主要的115年重要的任務是在於辦理園區設施清潔環保檢測的相關工作以及辦理園區各項的公共設施的維護管理以及提供廠商相關的服務輔導等事宜"},{"start":2035.257,"end":2042.342,"text":"還有設置污水處理廠園區內的這個廠商的排放廢水的相關管理的相關業務"},{"start":2044.161,"end":2064.628,"text":"那115年的預算編列的狀況那業務的總收入編列的是91億元那業務總支出大概是80億元左右那剩餘大概是10億元左右那固定資產的部分呢會投資28.6億那主要是為了辦理高雄軟體"},{"start":2066.389,"end":2092.711,"text":"園區的第二個園區第一棟大樓的興建的相關計畫那第二大項是有關於水資源作業基金的部分115年主要的業務項目呢除了辦理這個水庫的經營管理還有河川的輸進管理之外就是包括給水或輸進或淤清那也涵蓋了發電跟觀光的相關的一些業務的規管"},{"start":2095.083,"end":2113.414,"text":"那第二就是水作業基金的第二項就是溫泉政策的規劃以及技術研究發展依據這個溫泉法來收取溫泉的這個收取費用來辦理溫泉管理的相關業務那第二個是115年預算編列狀況大概業務的收入編列了大概100億元業務總支出編列了115.73億元那短處大概是15億左右"},{"start":2123.325,"end":2149.678,"text":"那第三大項是主要經濟的特別收入的這個基金那有關於115年重要的業務的部分那第一項大概是貿易推廣的相關業務辦理拓廣這個貿易因應貿易情形支援各項的這個貿易活動那第二個是能源的研發相關的工作辦理節能的相關的技術還有推廣"},{"start":2151.139,"end":2167.813,"text":"電業的管理那第三個是政府有關於除油石油開發的相關的一些相關的計畫那第四項是有關於再生能源的推廣相關的業務那第五項是有關於中小微企業多元振興的發展"},{"start":2169.468,"end":2176.152,"text":"那有關於這幾項的這個基金115年度的編列狀況是資金來源大概編列了317.79億元那資金的用途大概306.88億元那剩餘大概有10.91億元左右"},{"start":2187.762,"end":2206.8,"text":"那第四大項是有關於核貨端的這個基金那115年業務的重點呢第一項是有關於低放射性的廢棄物處理的跟儲藏的一些相關的計畫那第二大項就是低放射性的這個廢棄物它最終的處置的一些相關計畫"},{"start":2209.059,"end":2231.396,"text":"那第三大項是用過的核燃料的儲存的一些相關計畫那第四項是用過的核燃料的最終處置的一些相關計畫那第五項是核子設施除役以後拆廠還有它的廢棄物跟它的最終處置的一些相關計畫那在115年編列的預算的狀況資金來源大概是60億那資金的用途是97.33億那餘數大概是37億左右"},{"start":2239.878,"end":2268.444,"text":"那以上的就是本部主管非營業的特種基金大概115年的預算案的狀況那基本上均配合政府的施政主軸妥善的配置基金的這個資源那有助於達成我們活絡整個產業的發展動人協助產業在低碳還有數位雙軸轉型拓展貿易市場推動人員轉型以及穩定水資源相關的目標"},{"start":2269.764,"end":2272.246,"text":"以上 敬請各位委員指教與支持謝謝"},{"start":2288.066,"end":2314.903,"text":"那現在進行詢答那委員諮詢權原地作以下的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記我們首先請登記第一位的賴瑞隆委員發言好謝謝主席請工部長請工部長"},{"start":2323.106,"end":2345.203,"text":"部長 先請教一個問題其實從去年到今年台灣的經濟狀況相當不錯我們的經濟成長率從去年到今年的第一季都很好而且後來還上修了那今天我看到有民間的經濟學者也評估今年的經濟成長率渴望可以超過10百分點部長怎麼看 有沒有這個機會"},{"start":2347.294,"end":2352.799,"text":"我想主席總書已經修正他的預測大概是9點多了9點33"},{"start":2356.736,"end":2381.858,"text":"以這個趨勢來講當然也我想這些金融機構也有他的基礎來做這樣推顧所以應該是很有機會機會是存在的對因為從去年到今年都上修了就原來的都上修不知道今年第一季也都上修那如果照今年這樣看有可能會持續倉王特別是在我們在AI跟整個半導體的狀況都相當良好還有其他的產業今年狀況也比去年好對"},{"start":2382.759,"end":2396.268,"text":"包括所謂的這個機械業他們出口的成長事實上前五個月也達到兩位數比我們想像中要好的非常多那他評估到股市甚至會上到五萬點部長怎麼看"},{"start":2399.219,"end":2422.751,"text":"我們不方便去談這個股價指數啦但是以這樣的這個動人終究這個股市要反映這個基本面那我們只能講說現在的基本面事實上是不錯台灣現在的基本面是良好的不管是從股市或從經濟成長率看起來都是大家都是看好的啦那我還是要提醒一點就是在好的狀況下還是要特別對我們的傳統產業跟技術產業還是要持續的"},{"start":2426.215,"end":2428.727,"text":"加強去 上次部長也提到大概我們會投入2200億來協助"},{"start":2431.851,"end":2449.623,"text":"對就是說我們除了有這個特別預算來支持之外那個460億我們還是會支持對傳統性產業和中小微的企業來做強化之外那現在行政院給我們在每一年這個中小微預算有超過100億嘛那現在總統又在這個520裡面談話裡面又說未來會給我們額外的1000億來強化所以我們會善用這樣的資源來針對我們"},{"start":2458.929,"end":2475.682,"text":"中東產業跟中小企業的這個我希望方案盡快出來之後那我們盡快的來協助啦在中小微跟在我們傳產的部分能夠得到更多的支持讓他們在這一波的成長工也能夠有感啦是是是好那再要請教一下這個中東的戰事現在趨緩了那我們現在儲油安全狀況目前如何"},{"start":2480.394,"end":2492.269,"text":"還是按照都滿足我們這個今年一整年應該有的狀況是OK的吧一整年無雨啦今年到年底都是無雨的那另外油價的部分呢未來的油價的趨勢呢"},{"start":2493.513,"end":2510.333,"text":"油價當然現在看起來是比較明朗因為上個禮拜還不明朗現在是比較明朗已經美伊之間已經達成一些協定了那現在油價看起來也明顯的往下了往下對那我們當然在我們的油價也會適度的"},{"start":2512.355,"end":2540.738,"text":"反映這樣的趨勢好我們也希望能夠適度的反映啦讓人民都能夠感受得到這樣的一個油價的一個趨勢啦好那再要請教一下總預算的審查其實到現在還是沒有完成啦那我特別在意的是其實很多都很受到很大影響那因為大離譜遷村其實這個推了很久啦從政府也是推很久那今年這個60億後來也沒有被放入到優先能夠放行的部分那這個部分會不會影響到今年的遷村整個規劃跟執行"},{"start":2542.179,"end":2553.704,"text":"是所以我們現在希望盡快的現在在審總預算如果這個總預算的這個時程可以盡快的完成部長我先問今年會不會影響到現在61還沒有放行會不會影響到"},{"start":2554.915,"end":2578.616,"text":"我們先用基金來墊付啦先墊付但是這個也是臨時的措施我們不希望因為基金墊付畢竟它有它的局限所以不會影響到今年的部分嗎先墊付然後最後如果通過的話再墊資回去嗎是是是但是要趕快過啦因為墊資的話還是有一定的這個它的局限有局限是會影響到嗎"},{"start":2583.877,"end":2590.48,"text":"呃這個請來來區長講跟委員報告因為基金有基金的用途啊我們臨時調播那可以先臨時調播的是的"},{"start":2592.55,"end":2611.265,"text":"所以不會影響到今年的部分嗎因為它的用途不僅是這一項而已我們怕如果說這個電波太多在這邊其他的會有一點排擠就是這個電波60億在這邊的話其他的使用會受到排擠所以就盡快如果可以通過的話"},{"start":2611.685,"end":2635.665,"text":"我還是要強調我還希望立法院這邊大家朝野應該儘快通過薩林普簽證是對當地的居民跟環境政策相當重要的一環那這個一定要儘速來通過啦那我也希望不要受到任何的影響當然基金會先墊資先墊資那我們也希望儘快來通過這個預算那再要請教一下明年其實說正式要啟動的大概預定明年要動資600億的一個預算這個有編列進來的嗎"},{"start":2638.247,"end":2650.722,"text":"我們已經有把它編進來 概算編進來了那今年應該要審完明年才能動之嘛對不對那如果今年的總預算又照像今年這種狀況審查明年總預算的時候又照這樣狀況到明年6月還沒有審完的話那這600億怎麼辦"},{"start":2658.379,"end":2669.554,"text":"我們還是希望下個會期能夠盡快的針對明年的總預算來做審議因為這個610在太多了如果要墊資的話基金上是有他的困難"},{"start":2671.048,"end":2693.153,"text":"對 所以這600億要電資它還是會有很大的困難那所以這個600億現在目前已經概算邊境來了我們希望朝野立法院盡快來在今年度審議完畢那如果拖到了明年的6月一樣沒有審完預算的話明年6月總預算 拖到明年6月一樣像今年這樣拖了6月還沒有審完的話那這600億的動資會出問題是不是"},{"start":2696.107,"end":2712.977,"text":"會影響到進度會的一定會影響因為不可能電資60億勉強還能夠這個電資出來600億怎麼電資所以我希望這件事情我也希望經濟部一方面要加速一方面也要加強做更多的說明這個預算是很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":2715.178,"end":2741.839,"text":"大林普鄉親們都在看這件事情如果還因為不省預算甚至拖延到預算的話而導致千春整個受到影響的話那這一筆這樣大林普的人會全部算在頭上的那我也希望經濟部該有的作為要持續的加強去做溝通我當然知道很多不是你們的因素啦這很多的總預算拖延不是你們的因素但是確實會造成整個執行上面很大的問題"},{"start":2742.76,"end":2758.259,"text":"所以600億不是60億而已600億明年度是一個很大期的要推動的很多錢是要直接發到鄉親的手上去要直接執行千吋的工作所以600億今年度不 今年底不省完的話明年的執行就是會出問題了電子也定不是不出來的"},{"start":2759.355,"end":2778.753,"text":"是吧 部長是這樣嗎 是的 是的好 我們希望加強溝通跟讓社會 也向社會了解再要請教部長一下 那個白埔園區現在地方政府在做推動了剛剛政府先推了 這個半導體產業包也在爭取台積電進駐啦 這個目前的可能性跟整個方向呢 部長你的了解呢"},{"start":2780.214,"end":2799.949,"text":"這個應該大致上各方面大家都形成了共識包括市政府也好或我們中央政府還有這個相關的這個企業大家已經有這樣的共識所以大概是朝向先進的封測中心的方向來推進不是 這個半導體供應鏈的聚落半導體供應鏈的聚落那台積電應該還是會進來這邊來做主導嗎"},{"start":2802.931,"end":2827.237,"text":"他主要的供應鏈通通會進駐就是台積電的主要供應鏈整個會進來我想這個對於男子對於白埔就都很重要我們也希望形成這樣一個強大的聚落能夠整個來做一個推動謝謝部長 那很多的重大的工程還是要請部長持續盯緊很多的不管是大林埔建築或其他重要的包括高原二期 包括仁武園區等等都請部長要持續盯緊這個進度"},{"start":2829.017,"end":2853.543,"text":"這對中南部的發展都有相當大的影響是謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好我們謝謝大家的委員接下來的話我們請鄭正前委員質詢謝謝主席我要請一下經濟部工部長請經濟部工部長"},{"start":2861.754,"end":2880.003,"text":"陳委員早安部長早因為今天我們在處理經濟部主管的肺炎業基金的部分因為是針對115年度的預算坦白說應該去年在處理的事情我們拖到今年才處理所以其實我們在看待的時候坦白說是相對寬容的方式在看待這件事情"},{"start":2880.663,"end":2899.02,"text":"可是我這邊要特別講一下狀態因為我們在經濟部特別收入基金裡面有五個分基金那其中有一個推廣貿易基金的部分就是115年度的編列預算比114年度少了1.9億元"},{"start":2902.603,"end":2917.743,"text":"那時候在1.9億元當中的時候呢我就去看它裡面詳細的一個內容看它詳細內容裡面那我們就發現了一件事情從民國111年到114年的預算項目中推廣貿易基金的貿易"},{"start":2918.424,"end":2943.036,"text":"推廣工作裡面都有一個很重要的就是要持續推動加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定就是CPTPP的這個部分而且通常是在實施內容當中的最優先項目因為它放在第一點顯然它是最重要的狀態可是我們看到115年的預算當中的時候CPTPP完全被"},{"start":2943.596,"end":2950.005,"text":"提出這個預算的說明內容之外是表示我們已經放棄CPTPP的這個這個推動的動作了是這樣子的一個情況嗎可不可以請部長做一個詳細的一個回答"},{"start":2957.145,"end":2958.226,"text":"大部分的預算還是從經濟部來的喔"},{"start":2976.6,"end":2992.513,"text":"編在我們這邊沒有錯就編在公務預算裡面嗎就不在基金預算可是問題是我們從這個這個項目當中的時候直接把它給拿掉是不是有表示我們對這個部分有打算就是不再那麼積極要去推"},{"start":2994.931,"end":3010.588,"text":"因為以前金融台灣辦公室的預算科目也是這樣的一個編列的方式為什麼115年度跟114年度有這樣的一個差別好 報告委員其實在推動CPTPP就經濟部來講"},{"start":3012.329,"end":3014.79,"text":"會透過雙邊的場域比如說跟個別國家在雙邊諮商的時候會把它提出來但是這些雙邊國家諮商的時候這些預算其實不會秀出來是CPTPP會是跟我們雙邊的經濟合作裡面的價值這都可以理解齁"},{"start":3028.194,"end":3046.681,"text":"包括這東西跟外交部可能也有一些關係可是我要講的狀態是說為什麼在114年以前就沒有這樣子的問題嗎為什麼115年的部分的時候這個部分的工作內容項目的說明會特別把它剔除出去為什麼會在115年的時候跟111年到114年都不一樣"},{"start":3051.034,"end":3068.789,"text":"應該是沒有什麼不一樣我們看起來 你看我的簡報檔裡面的時候很清楚看到因為我們在這個111年到114年的預算當中的時候都有特別提到要持續推動CPTPP的部分115年的說明裡面就沒有了"},{"start":3071.17,"end":3080.294,"text":"我們經貿台南辦公室在處理這個問題的時候從110年到115年到現在都還是一樣那為什麼在這個非業基金的部分的時候會被踢出來"},{"start":3081.811,"end":3102.358,"text":"報告委員 事實上雖然這個上面沒有呈現但是我們事實上在工作上都有把CPTPP這個說法很難被接受啦 為什麼因為之前我們經貿談判辦公室的前副總代表就是顏惠欣他特別提到的狀態是說政府在爭取加入CPTPP的時候消極敷衍"},{"start":3104.139,"end":3127.534,"text":"那麼現在經濟部這邊的時候呢在負責這樣的一個推廣的一個基金的部分的時候又完全刪除這樣的一個工作的一個說明所以我覺得感覺上是不是就當時我們的副談判的總代表的時候他講的東西就是一個很實際的一個狀態所以從原本他個人覺得經濟部這邊消極敷衍從這個預算當中看起來就變成實錘了嘛"},{"start":3130.716,"end":3153.702,"text":"報告委員沒有這樣的狀況事實上我們這兩天的跟一些貿易夥伴國家在進行雙邊的這個對話其實都有把CPTPP放進來只是我們這邊不方便去跟委員報告說是哪現在不方便114年以前就方便嗎差別在哪裡你告訴我嘛現在進入什麼深水區嗎深水區的時候這部分該做的說明還是得做說明啊"},{"start":3155.202,"end":3181.08,"text":"針對這樣的一個狀態我覺得很難被理解我想我們再來補充因為實際有做只是沒有寫在上面而已那我們就把它補強進來因為我們雙邊對話的時候一定都會講到這個部分如果是屬於CPTPP會員那麼3月份的時候就是卓院長他有特別提到要針對CPTPP這部分要強化工作小組增加人手請問現在有沒有在做"},{"start":3182.977,"end":3204.694,"text":"強化工作小組增加人手行政院已經有在做這樣的思考據我們了解他會跟我們討論我們也會討論因為現在原來這個OTN他以前全部都是其他的這個單位派駐過去但是他現在已經我在當秘務長的時候可是大部分的預算都是經濟部編列的嘛"},{"start":3206.015,"end":3224.462,"text":"已經有給六個名額是一個行政院下面常駐的人員了所以他不會再做調動那是不是再額外增加我想行政院現在也在持續在討論當中那我們想我們會配合OK喔那針對CPPB部分的時候因為我特別提到因為我在前幾次的那個質詢的時候曾經問過一個"},{"start":3226.322,"end":3250.621,"text":"負邊的一個貿易協定的部分嘛像經濟部這邊能夠好好的去做啦因為這個CPTPP當中的首期也是在WTO架構當中的一個負邊貿易談判協定所以我們希望就是這個部分對台灣對我們國家的一個整體的一個經貿的一個發展是有幫助的我們希望經濟部真的要用力去做而不是就是"},{"start":3251.602,"end":3271.543,"text":"真的像我們前經貿談判的副總代表顏惠欣講的狀態政府對這個部分根本是一個敷衍消極的動作我們不希望看到這樣的情況 好不好不會 那麼接下來我要特別提到一下部長因為上次我有特別問到一個部分我們的一個核能政策轉彎了嘛"},{"start":3273.024,"end":3286.629,"text":"核能政策轉彎的時候我那時候有質詢一個狀態我希望經濟部這邊能夠提出一個狀態就給我們知道我們這個能源政策轉彎成本是多少兩個月 當時說兩個月內給我一個報告你們經濟部給了經濟部給了 報告給了裡面一個數字都沒有"},{"start":3295.616,"end":3321.777,"text":"針對這樣子一個部分的時候我們的政策可以轉彎沒有問題我們也希望台灣的能源政策要轉彎可是政策轉彎之前的時候需要有很多的一個評估成本效益分析很重要我們只是要知道我們這個政策轉彎花了多少錢結果經濟部提出來報告裡面一個數字都沒有我請同仁說明一下"},{"start":3323.46,"end":3345.087,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在河三跟河二都還要進行再運轉跟這個自主安全檢查所以所有的將來的這個設備要更換到多少我們現在是沒有辦法知道所以要等到那個檢查完了以後確定這個部分都沒有問題可是我在想說一個政策的形成一定會有做過評估以經濟部來講的時候"},{"start":3348.028,"end":3365.495,"text":"數字量化的評估一定是重要的你現在給我的說 狀態的時候兩個月給我的狀態當中一個數字都沒有坦白說國民黨黨團在野黨團也提出一個數字九千億一樣提出到上兆的一個狀態因為大家評估的一個成本不一樣那說實話喔"},{"start":3367.236,"end":3389.03,"text":"以民間來說的時候我們在評估的時候可能會更寬鬆一點去看所以可能有人把集會成本都算進來啊把整個綠電那個等夠的價格的價差都把它算進來啊等等都不一樣可是經濟部總得有經濟部自己的主張跟看法嘛你們總得提出一個數字出來啊兩個月之後什麼數字都沒有"},{"start":3389.91,"end":3413.328,"text":"就寫了一堆文章出來這樣的文章的時候我們隨便從相關資料裡面就可以得到啊可是我們其實要特別去監督一個狀態就是這樣的一個政策轉彎到底成本是多少老百姓總得知道把政策可以轉彎可是我們也知道錢要花在哪裡啊經濟部可不可以在一個月內把這個部分盡可能把它落實出來"},{"start":3414.529,"end":3425.453,"text":"我們民間在野黨可以要求估算的時候很寬鬆你們可以估算得很保守啦或者你們把比方說合適的一個認定損失提出來這也是一個數字嘛結果什麼都沒有"},{"start":3429.487,"end":3444.458,"text":"我們現在剛剛同仁提到了就是說現在這個自主安全檢查的部分還要跟這個這只是成本其中的一部分部長這是其中的一部分而已是我了解就是說我們現在跟這個就是原廠"},{"start":3445.399,"end":3460.648,"text":"再溝通看看是不是可以給我們一個大致上的一個就是至少一個一個空間一個區間那這樣我們比較好有一個基礎來算了要不然的話我們政府部門提出來假如數據有爭議的話我想也不好"},{"start":3461.508,"end":3483.551,"text":"政策的一個轉彎當中說比方說台電之前的虧損那是不是是怎麼樣的一個情況虧損主要還是照顧民生理解所以說我覺得在這整個的政策的一個調整當中所以我剛剛提到在野黨在或者是民間的學者他們在估算這東西的時候可以很廣義的來估算"},{"start":3484.312,"end":3508.702,"text":"行政部門你們可以很狹義的來估算可是我們知道我們想要知道一個具體的一個狀態到底是怎麼樣因為照顧民生這件事情跟能源政策事實上一直都要改變所以我才說以經濟部的角度你們覺得這個政策的改變成本是多少總要有一個數字嘛經濟部不講數字講什麼呢一個月給我們很清楚的一個答案好不好我們"},{"start":3509.963,"end":3530.397,"text":"我們看看能夠供應到什麼樣的數字啦我們盡力 我們盡力 好另外一個部分喔因為我們現在處理115年的預算坦白說這是去年的應該要處理的狀態所以我們事實上在處理所有的預算過程當中的時候我們也是相對的客氣所以我們在"},{"start":3531.568,"end":3555.619,"text":"三動的部分的時候其實我們也盡可能的克制可是我要特別講一個狀態針對台電的部分我們台電這邊的時候我們沒有三 沒有動我們只提主決議主決議之後的時候台電這邊提出來要我們修改主決議的部分的時候完全沒有任何的一個內容的一個說明就直接希望我們能夠改成"},{"start":3556.719,"end":3569.867,"text":"書面報告然後就改成這樣的一個內容我覺得非常的沒有不誠懇那我在想說因為現在台電還在做後續的一個重新修的一部分那我們也希望部長針對於整個相關"},{"start":3572.789,"end":3590.692,"text":"單位的一個我們在監督的時候所提的一個案件的時候要有更大的一個誠懇來做因為經濟部的狀態坦白說第一次我們提出的狀態你們的回應我們也不是很滿意可是經濟部後來部本部這邊的時候後來再重新修過來的狀態我們就接受了"},{"start":3592.152,"end":3597.815,"text":"像台堂的部分我們都可以感覺到他們很具體在回應我們委員的預算提案當中的一個說明"},{"start":3607.199,"end":3623.57,"text":"我們現在只是要知道到底是台電的情況是怎麼樣子竟然都這麼樣子的困難台電的財務結構燃料成本庫存停電事故電網韌性光電風電儲能離岸風電這麼多的議題每一個都是大項目說實話"},{"start":3625.868,"end":3644.721,"text":"我們委員會裡面如果要把這些部分都用每個議題都要用專案報告一點也不為過所以我們這邊只是希望說你們能夠把這事情交代清楚竟然就這麼困難好不好部長請特別盯一下好的好不好好謝謝好謝謝鄭振銓委員接下來的話我們有請這個陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":3659.788,"end":3662.169,"text":"我們請工部長謝謝工部長 謝謝蔡委員長"},{"start":3670.863,"end":3692.338,"text":"部長早我想應該部長有看到我們的新聞的發布就是說我們台積電跟台南專案地上全已經簽約完成所以我們將提供台積電所需要的土地給台積電做擴廠的使用應該"},{"start":3694.195,"end":3723.719,"text":"部長有看到這個新聞這也代表了我們對於台積電在整個擴廠的一個需求我們是全力支持那麼在他正式落腳完成這個簽約的部分也正是我們對於台積電的頂尖晶圓先進製程戰略基地我們希望整個可以在台南從南科"},{"start":3724.259,"end":3751.227,"text":"一二三到未來有可能在南科四旗的我們所有的沙崙的基地這個都是我們能夠提供的所以部長也希望在整個所謂的水跟電我們的布局的部分也應該要拜託部長這邊全力來協助有有有這個非常重要的"},{"start":3752.108,"end":3766.624,"text":"對 我們都有一直都有在思考問題要持續的跟市政府還有這個就是TSMC就是台積電不斷的溝通希望可以達成就是它順利可以落地這樣的建議"},{"start":3766.684,"end":3792.941,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說地方跟中央尤其未來從這個地上權簽約完成之後市政府有很多要協助的地方包括整個我們的土地的變更所有權等等的問題包括未來我們希望在這個區塊我們有更多的一個生活機能除了"},{"start":3793.641,"end":3822.074,"text":"有工業有科技生活機能也很重要所以市政府我們會全力來協助這一塊那在中央的部分就勞煩我們經濟部這邊如何中央地方全力來協助我們要拼一個我們台南的新科技但是呢當我們在拼台南的新科技台南的傳統產業也非常的重要"},{"start":3823.074,"end":3829.699,"text":"部長你知道過去台灣人在英國的時候我們台南的鄉鄉都自己掛牆去拚天下 去騎艇所以我們現在也面臨要轉型的階段因為沒有轉型我們沒有辦法跟"},{"start":3842.407,"end":3858.594,"text":"世界接軌這是非常必要而且我們要面對的一個未來我們的耐心的總統在520宣布就是我們中小微企業的轉型方案"},{"start":3859.574,"end":3878.852,"text":"我們要正式邁入下一個里程碑對不對我們平常的時候因為我在經濟委員會很清楚我們平常說真的每年我們就有中小微產業的升級每年都有編"},{"start":3879.813,"end":3899.246,"text":"可是畢竟在我們的本預算當中還是無法符合所有中小微產業他們的需要因為我們現在等於都在跟世界賽跑啊對不對所以大家的量能非常大如果我們每年編預算"},{"start":3910.67,"end":3927.155,"text":"從明年開始我們有1000億對不對這1000億預計多久我們要延續多久的時間報告委員因為我們現在的公務預算包括基金的部分總共一年大概有100多億那現在總統是說除了這個100多億之外"},{"start":3932.717,"end":3951.406,"text":"額外再加1千億希望8年所以額外增加每一年有100多億所以我們一年就有200多億的預算來支持中小微企業的發展那我們希望透過這些預算的增加可以讓更多的中小微企業受到一些照顧"},{"start":3953.487,"end":3974.225,"text":"那我們也開始啟動了這個中小微的這個轉型升級的這個條例的一些修正讓更充實把這個照顧中小微的一些發展或工具政策可以法制化系統化那可以讓我們來支持中小微企業可以長長久久除了預算之外來 部長"},{"start":3976.667,"end":4002.724,"text":"你知道問題在哪裡其實這是賴總統的美意是從一百多億我們自己的本預算不預算加基金一百多億到明年開始再每年加一百多億是的總共兩百多億是好那我們怎麼落實關鍵在落實是我們目標預算有了好怎麼落實"},{"start":4004.817,"end":4010.7,"text":"報委員我們現在就是講就是剛剛提到除了法制作業讓他修法之外那我們也擴大我們的這個支持範圍我們把照顧中小微企業的這個範圍擴大因為過去來講對這中小企業幫助的比較是以公司形態的他們如果要升級轉型他需要研發的幫助也好啦"},{"start":4026.949,"end":4051.389,"text":"或者是人員的併顧也好或機器的採購也好甚至於我們現在更落實到一些比如說四個人以下的甚至於連公司都沒有登記的甚至於商圈的這些廠商我們也一併透過這個系統性的了解以後支持他們讓我們真的經濟成長可以讓這些所有的人都可以受到照顧謝謝部長現在門打開了"},{"start":4054.231,"end":4073.106,"text":"過去門有限縮在某一個區塊好現在門打開了那門打開了請問誰來輔導如果我們一直用過去的輔導概念一樣拿到的還是拿得到拿不到的還是拿不到"},{"start":4074.352,"end":4093.294,"text":"所以現在是在輔導機制輔導團的建立部長你記得我曾經也是在這裡質詢就是我們要個案就是量身而不是你今天輔導團我訂了一個標你都是這樣做"},{"start":4094.574,"end":4115.424,"text":"那一樣啊 你把下面開放把門打開 還是一樣沒用啊因為你的輔導團你的標已經定在那裡了所以你的標定在那裡可以進來的也就是那一些就算你下面開放的更大還是沒用"},{"start":4118.755,"end":4147.185,"text":"所以部長你不只是這個門你要重新檢討整個輔導機制我跟部長報告我已經對外宣示了就是說當今天為了要符合我們中央賴總統這樣的好的政策我們一定要在台南市成為一個輔導平台"},{"start":4149.315,"end":4162.05,"text":"由各縣市自己成立輔導平台可是我沒有辦法去要求別人我從我們台南市開始因為這個輔導平台之後我才能去要求對接"},{"start":4165.322,"end":4186.771,"text":"因為最了解的還是地方政府所以因為到微型企業的部分很多過去來講是市政府在照顧的中央有多的資源我們會跟地方政府整個對接整個整合起來增加地方政府的資源來照顧這些微型企業所以未來我們會成立一個平台"},{"start":4188.152,"end":4208.717,"text":"也就是把符合我們現在修法之後修條例之後可以納入到這所謂的200多億200多億符合這個資格的全部納入到這個平台我們市政府來分門別類"},{"start":4210.751,"end":4239.119,"text":"分門別類商圈的歸商圈因為他們的輔導需求一定都不一樣商圈的歸商圈四個人以下的歸四個人以下的然後呢有中小企業的歸中小企業微企業的歸微企業你一定要把它分門別類把它區塊抓出來由我們來跟你們對接"},{"start":4240.639,"end":4268.476,"text":"是我覺得這樣子才能夠達到我們要的一個基礎效益否則從過去每一次我審預算我很清楚啊中央不是沒有邊中央有邊可是為什麼到地方尤其南部就會覺得我那感受不對可是傳產最多的在哪裡中南部"},{"start":4269.571,"end":4276.157,"text":"可是 你編的預算 中南部又感受不到那不是就是折扣 打了折扣了嗎所以 部長"},{"start":4280.007,"end":4302.472,"text":"這是我未來要做的那麼我現在已經在這段時間也一直在談論這樣的一個部分這樣子才能把賴清德總統跟我們經濟部我們所想的才能無縫接軌在一起所以我要拜託部長你未來要支持"},{"start":4303.012,"end":4317.203,"text":"是 一定支持你要支持因為我們一定會成立這個平台這個平台沒成立什麼都是假的如果中央的輔導團畢竟沒有那麼辦法深入到這麼基層"},{"start":4318.57,"end":4328.795,"text":"是的對不對對我們還是要跟地方政府做緊密的結合跟合作對我一定會成立這篇到時候再拜託我們經濟部我們所屬的相關針對中小微企業的轉型的主責單位一定要跟我們做接軌是"},{"start":4339.159,"end":4365.898,"text":"然後我們來協助我相信這樣才能達到賴總統的這樣的美意然後賴總統本身整個政治的培養都在我們台南所以他一定感受得到我們在中南部對於這個傳產的壓力尤其我們看到現在當我們在推動新科技AI無人機"},{"start":4367.299,"end":4393.417,"text":"我們無人機我相信我們經濟部我們也編了預算台南總共有25家對不對然後我們無人機的這樣的一個建構計畫我們總經費52.9然後呢我們在台南總共拿了7億然後在整個科技實驗室還有廠房的建置計畫編了4億"},{"start":4396.039,"end":4420.184,"text":"所以這個部分其實我們有新科技我們也有傳產這個是對台南最大壓力的地方就是說我們一定要拿到AI無人機這個所謂的新科技的一個量能預算可是我們的傳產也不能偏廢所以到時候要拜託部長"},{"start":4421.224,"end":4441.237,"text":"我們是一個整合型的在台南是一個非常大整合型的我們需要的預算更多是好再拜託部長是謝謝好謝謝謝謝接下來我們請洪立祥召委請做巡檔主席好"},{"start":4450.317,"end":4478.312,"text":"接下來我們請這個工部長我們請工部長我們再請一下這個楊志清局長來 早安來 局長我想先就剛剛因為我高雄人所以我剛剛對賴瑞文委員這樣子講什麼預算這些我是不以為然我問一下大臨普的千春計畫行政院何時核定"},{"start":4479.86,"end":4483.861,"text":"最早是在108年10月8日2019年10月8日過了幾年過了7年所以跟今年預算一點關係我不能說完全沒關係"},{"start":4498.224,"end":4520.691,"text":"因為中間一直在跟地方政府對 2007年紅毛港的遷村課要開始到2014年高雄氣爆 我也是很在乎所以那時候大林普遷村那時候才在吵的 才是有一個爭議所以我是說我給你們預算 其實就是先要好好做不是到要選舉的時候才在講說我要遷村"},{"start":4521.803,"end":4546.436,"text":"我的意思是這樣而已好啦 不用解釋 我只是告訴你整個時序啦我國人 我有時候聽說大林埔遷村說這麼久啊我的意思就這樣子而已 所以我剛剛是隱忍未發謝謝 因為居民有說要先處理好遷村再來做園區的設置啦所以對嘛 對嘛 我是說遷村就很久了2019年我就遷到7年 我再給你預算我遷10年搞不好也遷不完"},{"start":4546.596,"end":4574.486,"text":"因為千春中間要達到共識啦所以有辦了五場的千春說明會謝謝委員對啦 我也都澄清一下而已啊它不是今年才發生也不是去年才發生啦對不對 我各種人 我怎麼知道好 來 謝謝啦謝謝局長來 請回那接下來的話我們針對今天的這個預算主要的話呢是在這裡頭來講的話整個我們這個是經濟部所屬的一個基金那我大概是針對"},{"start":4576.075,"end":4601.696,"text":"再生能源發展基金、能源研究發展基金跟石油基金還有一些水資源的作業基金主要因為時間有限所以我大概就這幾個指標案件來看這整個結構性的問題像我們最近生物案股票下市股民也是損失慘重郭豪強講一句話這個案子叫做小孩子玩大車"},{"start":4603.081,"end":4629.815,"text":"也就是說當初這邊的評估啊事後的回收效益等等其實超越它的一個工程上的一個風險那另外在烏山頭水庫這個案子的話它比較就是說在水庫這裡頭設了光電板當然這個影響到我們的公共水域啊用飲水的安全然後當水庫乾枯之後這光電面板啊釘在那個位置然後呢 拿出來看"},{"start":4630.697,"end":4657.635,"text":"所以這個地方來講就是清洗到非紅供應鏈的問題然後最近炒的沸沸揚揚300坪清潔爛的屋頂的光電一堆民間都在反映這是什麼樣子的爛東西那當然這個東西他們關心的居民關心的消費者關心就是你這個房價轉嫁的問題將來消防安全失火的一些問題颱風風險脆弱的問題"},{"start":4660.757,"end":4690.269,"text":"那我是覺得啦政府齁那麼多的一些房屋建設先帶頭示範中興新村也很多啊中興新村都閒置的我們政府機關這些官設上面有一點我覺得倒是可以先做公有屋頂都大致上按照這個進度 百分之百嗎沒有嘛 還沒有嘛所以我是說應該要去做另外也要請經濟部產發署去研究一下因為現在你說不管是氣蓋礦它現在也不見得要鋪這種水平的它鋪垂直的"},{"start":4690.629,"end":4718.427,"text":"對不對用在玻璃塗層內都可以就是我們新技術出來可以讓你再生能源的這些發電的效果可能會更好更美觀更安全穿透性也好我想這個技術上大家都知道的事情那這也可以往下去走那我們從這幾個牽扯到的東西就是政府我是把它歸納成幾個失能 失靈 失責 失控 失序"},{"start":4719.437,"end":4742.894,"text":"所以在這個地方的話我們先來看第一個我們每次這是結構性的問題通常我們在做一大堆的案子的時候像這個深威案那也許經濟部會說這是台電對不對風力發電那台電說這個就是承包商按照合約這樣子來得到這個風場這樣來做那聯運署可能會說這是因應我們要這個風電國產化數位轉型"},{"start":4747.777,"end":4768.533,"text":"希望能夠有更好的外銷所以在當時這個案子裡頭賦予了能源的發電國產化的目標然後呢這個基本上我們希望說台灣再來做但是現在我的問題是說如果整個現在這樣的失敗延宕或者是發電向來不如預期的時候到底我們是誰要負責經濟部嗎"},{"start":4770.354,"end":4798.684,"text":"報告委員我想這個個案來講的話當初招標他得到標那有了合約就按照合約來走那我們經濟部最重要的就是說他可以在時辰裡面這個離岸風電把它做起來那可以順利的發電這個就是我們的目標那我們希望這可以達到至於中間的這些這個承包的一些過程那就按照合約合約該怎麼做我們就怎麼尊重他"},{"start":4799.444,"end":4824.321,"text":"最重要還是說 今年要把這個風機把它裝設完然後可以順利發電 這個就是我們最重要的任務好 明白 我意思說這個問題 比如說再拿一個烏山頭的水庫經濟部可能管水質安全嘛 對不對 水庫的管理 台電是管購電等等但是如果這個光電板的裝設 非紅供應鏈這是誰要查 經濟部查 台電查"},{"start":4829.862,"end":4855.627,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個基本上那個水質的部分都符合那個就是水質水庫我現在不是關於水質水庫我現在是說水質水庫本來就要管嘛飛鴻的部分啊飛鴻的部分他基本上你管還是台電管應該講他進口的時候他只要在我們那個有一個有一個資源性的一個標準裡面的都可以符合都可以裝對"},{"start":4857.745,"end":4869.56,"text":"好你看還是沒回答我問題我雖然懶得逼你反正大家都在聽我的問題都很簡單就是到底誰負責就這樣就好就是我們在做很多案子都是這樣子"},{"start":4871.144,"end":4895.974,"text":"再來這個我是覺得就是整個能源結構政策的一個失敗所以基本上來講當我們這邊的話呢希望當時再生能源能夠去供應這些的缺口不管是這個核電停下來的這個缺口那也希望降低我們的燃煤火力發電但是我們發現現在的狀況因為再生能源的這個達標的比例很差嘛今年大概我們估計大概多少13"},{"start":4899.225,"end":4907.408,"text":"去年是13今年預估今年應該會增加因為離岸風力增加很多離岸風力增加很多增加很多所以增加13.5.8.7.4"},{"start":4913.306,"end":4937.342,"text":"現在因為數字分子跟分母都在變動當中所以現在很難講一個很明顯的數字實在是不曉得要怎麼問你叫分子分母都在變動當中那你乾脆寫90%好了好不好反正分子分母都可以調這很奇怪哪有人做這種預估是這個樣子對 因為他的這個整年的這個用電狀況發電量"},{"start":4940.344,"end":4957.338,"text":"是在變動我們綠電的確是在增加當中剛剛同仁講說出估應該可以超過15綠電的增加我當然是同意但是你綠電的增加我哪增加一度我的成本假設是要10塊"},{"start":4960.218,"end":4984.088,"text":"結果是賣的更多還是賣的更少等等就是說到底他撫撫撫的CP值報告委員現在很多的綠電基本上他就轉來職工了實際上台電不是透過台電來買賣的因為他們發現就是賣給這些廠商事實上是在價格上是比較優惠的所以他們基本上都採用職工的方式尤其是離岸風電的部分"},{"start":4986.173,"end":5014.712,"text":"我想是整個再生能源的政策可能都要去看一下再來第三個我在看的時候就是說這很多因為牽扯到這裡頭就是說我剛剛講的能源發展基金研究基金石油基金這些等等像這些東西的話我都覺得它是不是會變成是政策的一個補助的全包你知道為什麼嗎比如說像我們石油基金的一個目的來講它就是穩定石油供應維護油品的一個市場秩序在這當中有一些替代能源的研究根據它的法條"},{"start":5015.512,"end":5033.967,"text":"但是這個資金來講的話你今天是剩下9.44億然後我們這當中可能還要補助你家電稅效率升級這也就算了 家屋頂太陽光電 科技儲能就是說到底這些支出跟我們基金當初設置的用途合不合符不符合 文對體嗎 還是文不對體"},{"start":5036.88,"end":5057.686,"text":"因為這個部分石油基金他本來的任務就有包括這些了那最主要我想您這邊資料也看出來主要還是在就是怎麼樣這個節能加電的部分那這個省電的部分節電的部分的推廣那個是我們最大的這個支出所以這個還是符合當初石油基金的目的"},{"start":5059.667,"end":5076.881,"text":"因為我覺得石油基因看起來就是穩定石油供應啊比如說這個核母制海峽封鎖等等對不對我們要從這邊去補助你的購電或者是我們整個這一個汽油的補貼等等是不是應該從這邊來那現在的感覺是好像很多科目用途都不對"},{"start":5078.167,"end":5096.668,"text":"因為我們的這個發電基本上過去來講也是依賴外來的能源那這個部分尤其是現在是天然氣是非常多因為我想到以前我們在省科專計畫的時候委員常常會問我們就是說你這個計畫內容跟你的名稱到底有沒有符合我們這樣一看起來就覺得很不符合"},{"start":5097.469,"end":5125.374,"text":"再來的話另外就是像這個烏山頭的水資源作業基金這裡頭也跟他這個基金也是有關係因為我們在這個運算書裡頭也看到他期末的現金大概會降到8.92億那場地的收益費大概可能不到500萬可是我們在這個水庫鋪光電板之後發生設備損壞水質異常拆除復原地方尤其是這個對應設備拆卸的跟災損復原的成本"},{"start":5126.749,"end":5151.244,"text":"這個是水庫要去負責我們水利署要去負責還是最後是整個是我們基金全民承擔就是應該是跟廠商去收的錢去做這樣子的是可以cover這些回收的如果不夠cover是變成是我們全民跟這個基金要來承擔是這樣子嗎 署長 水利署 署長水池監測應該是所有的水庫我們都會做的事情"},{"start":5153.161,"end":5158.964,"text":"那光電板鋪設這個壞了維修要廢棄維修那是誰的事廠商要自己負責如果他沒負責你會怎樣按照合約來看"},{"start":5169.848,"end":5195.916,"text":"你現在有罰錢 烏山頭水庫那一個還有丹納斯颱風嘉義那邊14萬片的那個報告委員 烏山頭水庫的它並不屬於我們水資源作業基金的範疇它是由農田水利署擔任者它是它主管的一個水庫所以它那個烏山頭水庫不是我們水利署這個水資源作業基金的範疇向下也是"},{"start":5196.636,"end":5216.279,"text":"那我的意思是說像類似這種東西的話可能就是在政府這裡頭就是說將來我們在做這個再生能源的時候這些後續的維修服務這個設備成本這些東西都要清楚好不好因為我想你水質的監控會有那想說光電板鋪了之後那這些污染的話你還是要跟廠商去做求償"},{"start":5217.29,"end":5244.53,"text":"那當然那當然不過因為剛剛提到因為烏山頭水庫主要是這個農田灌溉使用所以是變成是農業部在主管對 我說舉例類似的一個狀況的話你的水質監控還是你嘛水質監控當然就是如果要進來自來水的話就是我們要監控那烏山頭有進到我們的自來水嗎大部分都是農田在灌溉用有一部分有一部分也是有啊有啊 那個部分是那個部分是我們會監控"},{"start":5246.206,"end":5265.621,"text":"好那我覺得啦這個東西將來你在做這些再生能源基金的管控的時候在回收這裡頭我想要再問一下像我們這些光電板的話照道理經濟部應該都設有比如說物聯網的裝置啊或者是去做監控那你們現在這些的光電面板的一些回收管理機制的平台有沒有"},{"start":5266.66,"end":5285.15,"text":"我們有要求業者有那個繳交回收費那不是 我說你的管理平台你可不可以掌握到每一個光電面板的這樣子的一個裝設地點裝設地點我們序號都有 登記的時候我們都有那個序號那你後面有沒有平台去追蹤它"},{"start":5286.711,"end":5297.839,"text":"如果他後續就是運作要回收的時候要最終要處置的時候那個部分我們都有可是我說你的系統平臺有沒有有沒有這個可追蹤的平臺管理的平臺有沒有我們有這個平臺有確定喔確定"},{"start":5303.823,"end":5332.246,"text":"再來我覺得這個東西可能經濟部最後要再去看一下的話就是說整個這個因為我現在對於這個再生能源現在對我們全民的印象是這樣就是光電面板進到我們的傳統的漁場、水庫、山坡地、農地、漁園其實這個對我們全民的觀感根本不是很好那發電的效益又差然後台電的這個賭購的成本又貴所以我覺得"},{"start":5333.887,"end":5354.998,"text":"這個事情哪裡還要在我們家這個新的建宅類似這樣子就是新的住宅300坪在裝設光電面板發電效益應該是不錯我們現在只要是白天中午的話透過太陽光電的話這個發電是非常他知道啊 尖峰的時候發電當然很好啊太陽下山晚上就不行了"},{"start":5355.618,"end":5380.658,"text":"那那個部分我們有其他的這個因應的措施嘛對我現在講的是說整個這個東西如果我們就是在政策上總檢討如果我們是承認失敗的它是一個bug我們就把它fix甚至就是remove它全世界再生能源都有一直在這樣發展當中全世界太陽能面板也是在發展對我是說在這整個當中的話應該要電壓風電也是在發展對"},{"start":5381.519,"end":5401.848,"text":"對 但是我們就覺得我們台灣的這個管理的措施跟這個東西是很糟糕的我希望是可以好好再做妥善我們沒有阻止再生人的發展但是是不是有新的模型強化的這個管理機制然後將來出事救者的單位是有肩膀一肩扛起所有的改善機制我們都樂於聆聽跟來做處理啦"},{"start":5402.408,"end":5421.352,"text":"但是事實上比如像離岸風電韓國人還非常羨慕我們做得非常好他們已經延宕了那麼多年但是我們已經500次的這個風機都已經發電而且非常順利我不曉得怎麼comment我們等事實結果出來再說好了好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝黃昭偉"},{"start":5439.653,"end":5455.349,"text":"好 接下來我們請這個楊瓊英委員質詢謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長請部長相關單位如果需要回覆的你就請主動上來 好 謝謝"},{"start":5458.57,"end":5465.056,"text":"我們來討論近期揮打執行長黃仁勳公開表達台灣電力供應的憂慮經濟部在6月12號你們首次召開經濟及產業發展的諮詢大會宣示要以半導體AI以及產業聯盟來推動百工百業的共同發展"},{"start":5484.553,"end":5511.418,"text":"但是會議當中同時也反映出一個根本性的一個落差因為產業端他們提出了這個要求他認為電力需求需要寬估那未以籌謀無疑是在提醒我們經濟部呢那你可能是停滯在口號式的一個整合跟策略的一個宣示缺乏可檢驗的能源供應模型"},{"start":5512.958,"end":5517.261,"text":"跟算力基礎的一個整體配套那北徐認為在AI的這個爆發以及半導體的一個擴展包括了還有軍工還有無人機等這些新興產業都同步的在擴展在這個情況之下電力的需求它不是只有傳統線性的"},{"start":5535.811,"end":5564.219,"text":"一個預估那同時呢它可以說是結構性的一個跳升結構性的跳升那經濟部目前您對於整個電力以及算力還有產業擴張之間的一個聯動關係沒有看到你提出一個整體性可量化的一個整體性的一個規劃的一個架構那所以會導致產業喊需求那政府"},{"start":5566.075,"end":5583.316,"text":"是做概念那這樣的一個治理落差的一個情況持續在擴大所以本席要給部長您來說明到底我們目前針對於電力的一個需求遇過的模型你是不是有納入第一個"},{"start":5584.037,"end":5601.976,"text":"算力的需求第二個產業的擴張第三個供應鏈回流這三項的一個指標是不是有進入到整體性的一個評估那如果有你未來10年你的方向到底是什麼請做說明好謝謝謝謝委員那給我這個機會事實上委員剛剛講那三個議題都非常重要"},{"start":5606.781,"end":5631.253,"text":"我們也滾動式的每一年都把它放到我們的需求端來做一些考量我們也去搭配我們的電力供應看看能不能滿足我們當然也跟這些委員做了一些說明委員是好意就是說因為我們現在很多的算力上的一些需求我們是每一年事實上都去問業者你們未來的部署狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":5632.654,"end":5657.034,"text":"那問出來的結果我們就說這個是我們準備好來供應這樣的一個電力上的一些需求只是這個委員他們有提到說可能要稍微寬估一點因為企業界他現在預估的比如說他可能要增加100度假設是這樣但是有可能過了兩年三年以後他可能會比這個數字增加更多那我們要"},{"start":5657.995,"end":5662.461,"text":"怎麼講 超前部署或寬估了你聽到了這個聲音了嗎對對對那我們會往這個方向來做思考部長你現在因為我們每年都會問企業界他們的對話部長你現在這樣回答難怪產業端跟你的落差"},{"start":5675.466,"end":5691.502,"text":"產業端已經告訴你 他執行者已經告訴你你也聽到了 所以我還是要聽聽您既然聽到產業端的一個需求他不是只有一個口號 那你要怎麼做我們沒有口號 我們除了去詢問所有的企業可能會設置比如說算力中心的部分"},{"start":5700.55,"end":5722.543,"text":"問出來以後我們會再寬估產業端已經告訴你你必須要寬估包括剛剛我們講的這三大的這個產業需求你會寬估嗎會會寬估嗎因為剛剛的回答說連分子分母都在變動你們都已經說出來了表示寬估是必要的對不對"},{"start":5723.703,"end":5745.876,"text":"對 方向上是這樣那你能不能再具體告訴我也就是你聽到了這些的方向必須要寬估換句話說你目前所做的是不足以讓產業界他們的需求去放心的那你要怎麼樣做告訴產業界你怎麼樣做 你的規模 你的整體性的方式是如何讓他們安心啊"},{"start":5746.636,"end":5765.53,"text":"是 所以我剛剛跟委員報告你不是在問啊 你已經知道了你要怎麼做我們模型裡面會從過去的趨勢還有詢問所有的企業界他們未來需求的一些相關規劃比如說他未來要蓋幾座廠還有他要不要設立算力中心這些電力需求我們都會顧出來現代產業界已經點出他的問題了"},{"start":5770.513,"end":5773.535,"text":"謝謝你6月12號開的這個會議知道了問題在哪裡你能不能告訴我多久時間你聽到他們的需求你什麼時候可以告訴這些產業我就要聽到你的整體的一個規劃你大概多久時間可以告訴我們"},{"start":5787.682,"end":5813.301,"text":"因為目前你所宣告的6月12號宣告已經跟產業有落差嗎那你要怎麼樣去做呢經資會的部分我們大概是半年召開一次的我們就會半年我們就會給一些你的規劃剛剛我們達成一個共識寬估是必要的電力寬估需求是必要的對不對對那你多久時間可以告訴我們不需要到半年啊產業界他們要投資我到底安不安心"},{"start":5814.367,"end":5825.171,"text":"誰啊 電啊 這個很重要我們跟工學會 雖然這個你告訴我時間點好不好對 就是一季以後 一季以後我們會update一季以後你update 告訴社會大眾 這非常重要那接下來我要跟你討論台電投入了 還是電的問題投入了這個5645億元我們要電網強化跟供電韌性那從111年到121年 10年中的這些錢"},{"start":5840.976,"end":5857.556,"text":"但是6月10號發生了一個我台中海線地區光光一個下雨就發生了14萬戶大停電清水沙漏無機大甲14萬戶陷入了黑暗我們的交通都停擺紅綠燈都停擺了交通大亂"},{"start":5860.74,"end":5870.388,"text":"店家也因為停電而受損民眾的生活大受影響所以在這種情況之下呢你們給出的答案是什麼呢是告訴我們說是因為設備絕緣不良部長你在這裡"},{"start":5876.943,"end":5895.833,"text":"我們花了這麼多錢五千六百四十五億十年陸續要做好執行將近五年觀光告訴我們是因為絕緣不良台中海線地區大家都知道有鹹魚鹽分 石器這些都是自然條件都是幾十年來的自然條件那這該怎麼辦呢你觀光越下雨就導致十四萬戶"},{"start":5907.694,"end":5931.526,"text":"的這個居民受損 交通大亂 店家受傷受害 找誰陪啊所以在這樣的情況之下 如果只有告訴我們說因為下雨而他的學員任性不足導致這個理由 人民聽不下去耶因為我們已經執行了第五年了耶這一些條件不是今天發生耶這一些條件是自然成型的條件耶那這怎麼辦部長 真正的任性"},{"start":5939.305,"end":5965.521,"text":"真正的韌性它不是只有停電不是只有停字在停電後趕快修復欸這不是真正的韌性欸那以後如果下雨就叫韌性那以後如果這個這個停電之後恢復 匯電就叫韌性那我請問電網只有電網沒有韌性嗎所以我們要怎麼做啊這一些是自然條件已經成形到現在告訴我們這個原因不能接受"},{"start":5969.814,"end":5980.899,"text":"請說明台聯因為這個好語主要是針對這一陣子的好語實在太大了你再告訴我這個理由如果你的內心做好我們會有這個理由嗎我這個是海鮮地區它本來就有這一些條件啦剛剛我說的 它減分比較重對不對所以電網認証應該關本來就我們要持續在做持續在做 部長請部長回答從111年 今天是115年"},{"start":5997.116,"end":6004.204,"text":"我們執行到這麼多千億的錢那你現在告訴我是因為一個豪雨"},{"start":6006.301,"end":6032.783,"text":"報委員那個千億的錢它是做它是在它是在職工這個工業區的部分那這個部分有其他部長你這樣講我們更要抗議囉是14萬護委沒有這個本來就有預算你怎麼可以這樣回答呢這個本來就有預算在做而且我剛剛本來就有預算在做我請問台中地區的供電耐性工程你究竟完成了哪些項目啊"},{"start":6033.603,"end":6060.195,"text":"請告訴我 請告訴我 本來就要做你完成了哪些項目 你降低了哪些風險只有一個豪雨 十四萬戶這樣好不好 就破功了是 委員這樣因為他有一些完整性的系統性的改善希望就是針對這次豪雨發生以後他會全面性的檢測那我想事後是不是我們有一個完整的說明你能不能告訴我台中地區供電耐性工程你究竟做了哪些項目"},{"start":6061.738,"end":6082.257,"text":"你能不能告訴我你都不知道部長你降低了哪些風險你能不能告訴我你能不能告訴我你們都不知道能不能告訴我針對這一部分我們大概會從預防性的部分去做怎麼預防你已經自然條件都知道了下了一個雨就食之萬物影響受損的程度那麼大"},{"start":6086.394,"end":6100.673,"text":"到現在你還沒有辦法告訴我你做了哪些工程你做了哪些項目你做了哪些改善你降低了哪些風險部長要不要全面性的檢討已經發生了那麼大的事情你現在還沒有辦法回答"},{"start":6102.114,"end":6125.581,"text":"我剛剛特別提到就是說我們會有一個完整的檢測然後來檢測這個所有的原因因為主要這個豪雨這麼大的情況部長 這一些工作都是你在從111年預算通過之後執行你必須要做的現在是中華民國115年沒有這個理由 我給社會大眾看給了這麼多的預算 只有一個豪雨一時事萬戶 交通大亂 店家受損"},{"start":6132.099,"end":6152.848,"text":"工廠工廠都炒大了怎麼辦找誰要啊所以我本席要求你到底在台中地區你現在沒有辦法回答本席我還是要邀請你去盤點你到底在台中地區你的韌性電玩你到底做了哪些項目你到底可以降低哪些風險"},{"start":6154.168,"end":6179.451,"text":"發生了重大的事情到現在還沒有辦法回答請你盡速一個禮拜內將書面資料給本席我們好好一起努力好不好我也請各個行政部門你們在回答的時候都有錄音錄音社會大眾希望知道答案能夠安心我拜託你們一定要用心告訴我們答案而不是一問三不知好不好最後一個議題我再請教一下就是珍珠串的這個"},{"start":6181.713,"end":6206.883,"text":"計畫因為你強調了所有的水庫跟水壩的一個串聯南北水資源的調度你要讓這個農業跟晶片產業共享穩定的這個水源這是政府的責任也是政府要做的這個方向但是你們也宣稱了台積電在這個平坡的供應鏈它是這個無需擔心水電的問題這是政府宣布的但是這個論述"},{"start":6209.944,"end":6237.602,"text":"本席認為部長這個高度於依賴在整個跨區的一個調整以及氣候的一個水源的一個假設你目前為止你的兩個主要的因子在這裡用這樣子去調整但是你沒有同步的來公開完整的一個供需模型在枯水期風險的一個評估以及去用水你要怎麼樣優先的排序機制"},{"start":6239.103,"end":6259.979,"text":"從你這個制度 珍珠串的這個機制來看你目前個人認為是包裝在於全國水資源整合的工程但是實際上我們知道要整合沒那麼簡單因為它涉及到中南北水資源的一個重新分配還有產業用水的進逐"},{"start":6261.38,"end":6284.445,"text":"還有包括農業用水它在排擠的效應那麼在現在極端氣候的常態化如果你只有是以工程連通的方式來取代結構性的一個節水跟產業用水的配置的一個改革那你可能會讓水資源的一個治理呢從整個風險管理去"},{"start":6285.265,"end":6302.72,"text":"化身為現在的政治宣示 本行不希望如此 要真正的讓這個水電能夠吻合 能夠穩定 尤其在水 怎麼樣就穩定喔所以部長我要請教 你對外宣布農產跟晶片的這個產業用水 它是無力的"},{"start":6303.3,"end":6317.997,"text":"沒有關係沒有問題的那所以但是對於地方的農業以及民生的用水他如果承受壓力的時候我個人要請教經濟部你優先優先你的順位跟調度是怎麼樣請教"},{"start":6321.325,"end":6336.337,"text":"部長因為這是政策性的問題區域的部分區域調度的部分一定是某一個區域有多的水出來以後還會調度給缺水請正正本席的提問我說區域的部分當水有承受壓力的時候你的順序調度是如何產業民生以及這個"},{"start":6345.342,"end":6366.629,"text":"你怎麼樣去優先調度因為民生一定是第一啊民生第一因為有三方嘛產業 民生 以及農業嘛你現在回答的是一旦有壓力的時候是民生為第一優先那產業跟農業的部分我們會跟農業部做一個很好的協調工作比如說他一起幹怪完以後我們就會撥給產業用嘛"},{"start":6368.75,"end":6393.938,"text":"對 所以說還是會跟農業部有一個協調機制已經有了 這樣的一個協調機制好 所以你現在回答的一個總結就是說你會以如果水有壓力的時候當然我們不希望發生啦但是你政府本來就知道這個防患於未來嘛 未雨綢繆嘛那這樣預防重於治療所以你給我個人的答案是說第一個 你會以民生調度為第一優先那農業"},{"start":6394.958,"end":6405.522,"text":"然後產業兩個去做調整一定要把這個制度去把它做好 一定要去做好而不是只有做一個工程的串聯不是這樣 是 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":6427.671,"end":6455.227,"text":"趙偉有請部長有請郭部長這位院長部長好這個經濟產業延期這個在台北分級的話有包含了美倫還有和平還有光華產業延期的服務中心這個部分"},{"start":6456.865,"end":6482.037,"text":"因為我很久沒有去跟他們接觸了我只是請這個長野延期提供這個目前的營運狀況好 就機長請回座好 我們現在也請水利署署長也上來我也好這個花蓮縣馬灘吸菸社福潰壩"},{"start":6485.53,"end":6512.397,"text":"造成這個整個合體的一個重回當然這段時間從去年的923之後水利署算是最辛苦的現在還在辛苦了現在還在辛苦那我們怎麼樣去解決這個問題我們共同的要去思考長遠的去思考"},{"start":6513.464,"end":6528.523,"text":"而且要去考量到人民的人民的整個長期長期畢竟我們的鄉親在這裡都是做農的都是做農的我們看這張圖這張圖是在"},{"start":6534.428,"end":6554.015,"text":"這個花蓮光復往南的地方一開始這個相關的這些土石土石都是堆積在這個無論是這個基本上可能當初都是在這個世期裡面的土石"},{"start":6556.046,"end":6572.557,"text":"或是農田的土石堆積在這個台九縣的旁邊這個可能是台湯的土地這很高啊這個照片是空拍的看不出來相當高的這是其中一個部分我們看這個馬太安溪兩側"},{"start":6579.788,"end":6608.451,"text":"都是土石了 現在在河床上還是堆積如山的土石了都是土石無論是在佛祖界那邊 那個農田也都是土石 非常高我們看這個 這個就是在馬灘溪裡面包括它的支流也都是非常多的土石我們先姑且不講"},{"start":6609.975,"end":6637.24,"text":"上面燕社府那邊非常多的土石嘛這個都是未來會慢慢的流下來雖然現在現在水很少所以就下大雨可能就是小流但是畢竟還是會流下來所以我們要去做一個比較長遠的這一個規劃去思考這個事情這個重大的這個問題重大的問題"},{"start":6641.395,"end":6666.566,"text":"這個是水利署在鳳林也就是馬灘溪的北側鳳林這個地方堆積了非常非常高的土石你現在用這個有一些用那個這是用什麼蓋的防塵網是不是能夠一直防塵也未必"},{"start":6668.203,"end":6695.265,"text":"大風的時候是不是能夠造成這些是有很有效的減緩所以這個都是問題了也不能一直這樣子所以這些土石要去處理要去解決到底應該怎麼去解決等一下我們可以討論當然這裡面也有很多我們人民鄉親的土地他的農田"},{"start":6696.586,"end":6720.619,"text":"他的農田這個要你們現在當然你們都有法律啊法律都可以允許你們趕快先放因為那是為了這個公共安全證說土地證說條例裡面都有相關法律都可以都符合但是我們畢竟現在從去年的9月23號到"},{"start":6722.752,"end":6750.708,"text":"現在已經六月了快要滿週年了所以這個都是需要去解決那你們現在的做法就是希望徵收這個署長報告委員我們現在這些土地都是以架構為主就架構協議更好的價格那如果架構不整才徵收但是在徵收前因為有緊急所以我們原則上會用徵用"},{"start":6751.869,"end":6776.061,"text":"那徵用會給他價金用公告限值每年10%那目前這些土地大概公告限值的11%年的價金給他當作租金的概念當作租金所以他等於將來可以拿到1.2倍的一個錢的部分的概念就是兩成因為兩年的話大概有兩成再加上他公告限就是徵收的價格那未來"},{"start":6779.318,"end":6806.763,"text":"你們是要朝徵收嗎就是架構為主然後徵收為輔因為徵收跟架構你們要用什麼樣的架構是用市場的機制市場機制跟對方談市場機制所以不是市價是市價就是由估價式來估好這個市價談到市價因為市價在那個第七塊在這個七塊是不會有市價的"},{"start":6808.414,"end":6828.729,"text":"不會有私價既然可以協議但我的意見未必是最好的那鄉親是不是對鄉親有利我也不知道但是給經濟部給水利署做參考過去現在按照現在的規定"},{"start":6831.206,"end":6853.709,"text":"這個徵收是按照市價嘛那因為那個考慮的都是一般市區那個市價比較高嘛那早期啊早期91年那時候是用公告限值公告限值必要時得加成補償嘛那以前都是公告限值加4成"},{"start":6855.581,"end":6872.106,"text":"那是不是如果你要去評估你們去跟鄉親談的時候到底市價有沒有市價沒有市價的話公告限止加市存那會不會比較好我想跟委員報告謝謝委員關切"},{"start":6873.866,"end":6899.787,"text":"那事實上我們在做這個證收已經有行政院有一些政策指示要從寬從幼從速來認定那剛剛委員談的部分我們會列入考量那原則上應該是沒有特別的問題我們都會以現在公告的限值再去乘以必要乘數如果說那邊沒有交易的話這沒有問題我們會朝向這方面來努力"},{"start":6900.853,"end":6905.602,"text":"部長 經費來源是一個需要協助水利署的"},{"start":6907.717,"end":6929.958,"text":"那事實上以這個特別預算馬太安西的特別條例的特別預算這個經濟部水利署的經費是已經用了非常多了但是還是不足那我的建議就是說因為行政院還有15億的一倍金"},{"start":6931.88,"end":6950.673,"text":"條例規定是300億那行政院編列的預算是270億270億裡面還有15億的一倍金所以這個要去做善用最後這涉及到整個政策"},{"start":6955.458,"end":6980.851,"text":"卓榮泰院長宣布國家邁入大填海造陸計畫時代最好的最好的花東的砂石真的很多真的很多這個水利署最清楚尤其是在光馬灘溪那上面還很多所以啊要解決這個整個整體的問題"},{"start":6983.691,"end":7007.605,"text":"趁現在還沒有開始做徵收或者說協議把這個經費給鄉親之前是不是要朝左院長眼大的目標填海造陸新加坡就是這樣新加坡的面積越來越大越來越大他們就是填海造陸"},{"start":7008.92,"end":7036.45,"text":"所以這個部分有這樣的一個 報告委員是不是容我簡單表達一下首先這個我們現在去化土方有兩個方向第一個方向當然就是拿來多營建土方第二個部分就是委員所談的在花蓮那一邊很多的海岸線有侵蝕的狀況那也是未來對於我們沙石去化的最主要的要點我們都有盤點出來那細節我們再跟委員報告非常謝謝委員的關切 謝謝"},{"start":7037.81,"end":7038.411,"text":"我們共同努力 謝謝"},{"start":7059.297,"end":7072.746,"text":"各位好,首先有請我們經濟部管部長,還有我們水利市我們的林市長。部長好,今天是主要討論與審查經濟部揮子板,"},{"start":7081.363,"end":7098.124,"text":"經濟部主管回營業特種基金110年度的預算為了國家經濟的發展原則上我們都會支持今天我先請教水資源作為基金因為我看到你報告裡面"},{"start":7098.925,"end":7124.896,"text":"好像都在南部不管巴掌溪、北港溪及水溪的失禁還有及其南鶴高坪縣的清漁失禁這裡面有一段話增編無價料失禁土方去化經費我一直提過了好幾次地方的失禁現在沒有人敢調因為土方的價格非常貴"},{"start":7125.996,"end":7140.924,"text":"那你這編列這個預算是針對這幾條溪還是前省如果有在縣管河川中央管河川你這幾條不是中央管河川是不是全部有"},{"start":7141.824,"end":7159.951,"text":"土方企劃的經費的補助,我希望了解深一點謝謝委員的提醒事實上我們這邊尤其中南部你像白河水庫的集水溪、白水溪那邊都有加料,那些都碰瓦那個沙沒辦法當作有加料來做你不用這樣跟我說"},{"start":7161.311,"end":7186.837,"text":"所以我們大家來行堆來行施浚不管有沒有料但是現在我一直強調我再三次好幾次都強調施浚的土房要擺在哪裡沒有人敢負責任所以沒有人敢去標因為你到金光縣的垃圾也賣場面積也不夠大所以大家都不敢收都丟在溪的旁邊這個問題真的要解決我看到這一點"},{"start":7190.038,"end":7201.805,"text":"主要還是針對那些標不出去,因為我們都逐萬標,標到零以下那可能就要做區劃,所以作為基金裡面我現在重點,你不要跟我說這麼複雜你安裝土方區劃的補治,你安裝來補治因為時間很短,部長這個問題特別重我們土方是這樣不是藍波也有"},{"start":7213.192,"end":7227.717,"text":"苗栗這次大水災就是這樣的情形報告委員 剛才說土方我們如果等到無價料那我們會來做一些必要的補貼如果有些運費尤其有些公共用程"},{"start":7230.078,"end":7258.152,"text":"對 公共工程有些他有虛圖我們甚至運點他這一點要解決 我跟你講的講不完你早就要把地方的不是中央管的河川 地方管的河川這個問題要考慮解決報告員是不是容我再跟您做報告因為這個裡面的環節很多好 那兩天 不然我這樣你講的時間就拖著了再來 天花有水庫啊我們稍微非常重視我看預算也沒有變 是明年要變嘛"},{"start":7259.461,"end":7266.649,"text":"報告委員因為天安水戶目前行政院正在審議中所以我們還沒有配金部長多多支持但是我要告知你一句話"},{"start":7268.251,"end":7297.015,"text":"水利市40多年沒有建水庫苗栗縣大膽的做而已有勇氣的做而已而且保證成功這個開了一個先例出來的時候每個縣市就敢做了這個很重要的一個觀點所以你要把苗栗縣都鼓勵一下是我們事實上這件事情也非常感謝苗栗縣政府說老實話那我們署長來講說南北的這個珍珠串啊這個天荒水水庫是珍珠中的珍珠啊"},{"start":7297.555,"end":7323.015,"text":"因為它是非常非常重要的一個環節這是一個示範作用多多跟苗栗先生鼓勵鼓勵一下然後水的時候南部你說什麼水增資計畫我就不談這個了反正今年沒有缺水大概可以確定現在請電力公司林市長謝謝台電公司那個部長"},{"start":7324.426,"end":7343.46,"text":"那個回答黃榮鑫說台灣缺電,他講maybe,maybe的解釋在我來解釋就聽聽就好,古往聽之美國商會也特別的關心台灣的電不夠用報紙也出來,美國人怎麼會關心台灣的電不夠用,是要來賣"},{"start":7344.861,"end":7367.808,"text":"核電廠還是真的關心臺灣的電不夠用我問你絕對不對這兩件事情黃毓勳他今天的新聞他在美國也講說美國要趕快電力需求要電不夠了所以他到哪一個地方都講這件事情全世界都講這件事情他不一定了解臺灣所以他講的話大家都很緊張"},{"start":7370.649,"end":7396.371,"text":"那第二個就是,美國商會這件事情他沒有提到核電,他是說播源他們都支持到2032年,AI的算力中心是出電的怪獸那你認為在台灣裡面AI算力中心以台電的總董事長來報告說以後台灣的AI算力要在電廠的附近來蓋才比較妥當"},{"start":7397.612,"end":7424.95,"text":"他也講了在桃園新竹以北不蓋AI算力中心這個如果20320不缺電你會不會限制報告委員他是這樣就是說是在有充裕的電廠旁邊來蓋是比較合適要不然效率是比較好的要不然搭的但是北部以現在看起來是桃園它是有比較多的電廠是可以的"},{"start":7427.419,"end":7444.608,"text":"他現在大台因為電廠不斷的發展出來所以他有疑慮的有疑慮啦所以比較那你認為現在台灣哪幾個地方因為AI算力中心是算AI裡面最基層五種裡面的一種非常的重要"},{"start":7446.383,"end":7471.846,"text":"那用水要很大 用電要很大啊你認為哪裡最適合如果要大的面積來講因為這個小的算力中心5M以上當然是各台灣我們設計用你們可以運用要幾M以上的算力但是比如說你要100MW以上的話現在比較有那樣的電力可以供應的現在就是桃園跟高雄"},{"start":7472.894,"end":7499.966,"text":"為什麼桃園跟高雄因為他們這個電廠是最多的啊我苗栗沒有嘛你怎麼常常把我把你苗栗忘掉我正要問你這句話可是你頭腦裡面啊對苗栗存有偏見的思想我有水庫我有全省台灣第二大的電廠啊你怎麼想到桃園想到高雄我站在中間的位置最好我現在是要問你這個可是你心中沒有苗栗啊雖然你跟著我今天講話"},{"start":7502.287,"end":7519.693,"text":"中華府水庫就為了這樣而建了委員我苗栗去好多次你也知道你去好多次都沒有結果嘛你只有到南部才有結果到桃園大的企業財團你才有結果你覺得苗栗有沒有都無所謂無此可證"},{"start":7521.414,"end":7538.936,"text":"我本來很尊敬你很敬佩你從國外到現在我就是要問你其實前陣子最沒有缺水缺電的地方是苗栗是AIS三立中心很好你討論沒有中心的事情如果將來天花府水庫如果蓋好更有這個條件"},{"start":7540.097,"end":7557.406,"text":"你說怎樣?如果天花湖水庫更好,更有成效什麼天花湖水庫啊,本來我們就五座水庫了我們水庫給台中用,給新竹科學院去用啊,你沒了該表明對你很失望,你從來都沒有關愛的眼神我長期支持你,我覺得也沒有什麼價值在"},{"start":7558.53,"end":7584.956,"text":"沒有啦,我也長期支持苗栗,從我國發會到行政部長到現在你一直去想一想,苗栗有土地、有水、有電是最好發展AI的酸綠中心,你要不要支持?是,所以這一次美光去苗栗我也支持對嘛,你現在才想到大公司,你才想起來就是為了應用所有科大西部計畫有三個地方,有一個科技產業園區部長"},{"start":7588.477,"end":7599.401,"text":"雖然很尊敬你但是我發覺你對苗栗縣一點漠不關心我很悲傷失望我一直在提醒你全省裡面最好的算力中心就在苗栗縣我們也準備推展這樣的一個計畫要不要支持"},{"start":7612.156,"end":7623.4,"text":"講得很勉強,你也大聲一點,聽到藍部你就很大聲,聽到苗栗你不要嫌票少那邊一定可以改變,你只要拖在那邊拖多一點你這個作業基金裡面,有科技產業園區裡面,我記得編了"},{"start":7635.66,"end":7657.132,"text":"16億多都在燃脂科技產業園區第三園區屏東科技園區苗栗也有科技產業園區會輪指管單位我現在想一個方向苗栗是財政被受控管的一個縣市裡面我們產業"},{"start":7658.871,"end":7681.824,"text":"科技產業延期再推動,如果我們沒錢的話,可以把你們這個科技產業延期的作業資金來調度一下專款專用來幫我們開發,這個觀念要改變喔你們現在,我本來要問時間,我怕召委一直站起來你們這個都是支台黨的土地嘛"},{"start":7684.023,"end":7703.101,"text":"跟委員報告那現在新開發的園區取得土地的速度比較快大概會跟台糖這邊來做溝通找到一些跟農業比較沒有急迫性的然後呢做檢討那我們用區段徵收可能費用會比較高那財政困難保定"},{"start":7704.042,"end":7729.468,"text":"我剛剛講你不關心苗栗現在看你如何表現如何關心如果苗栗開發科技產業區在財源調度有困難看你要不要幫忙即使思想方法可以改變不要一直往台廠的土地那邊來因為苗栗剛好台中跟新竹科學園區的中間現在整個串聯起來我要問的問題在這裡"},{"start":7731.208,"end":7751.265,"text":"看你有沒有關心我,沒有要你多做,你這10個月要多少因為當初用台長的土地,因為他比較單純,單一的民主啊如果說民間用地可以整合好,很快速的話,我們當然會發言你會遵守啊,我就是要你遵守啊,這一點我開始要恢復對你的尊重"},{"start":7753.867,"end":7781.98,"text":"到時候不要跟我講很多禮貌這邊困難那邊困難如果民眾支持我們當然會支持好不好如果我們在開發基金有什麼專款專用來支持一下因為這個是新竹科學園區最重要的一個地方而且是待開發的地方比你高雄比你屏東比你台南還更重要它可以把全省串聯起來拜託一下好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7784.107,"end":7798.1,"text":"好 謝謝陳昌明委員我現在還站起來而已謝謝部長好 接下來我們請呂玉玲委員質詢等一下鍾嘉賓委員質詢完 我們就休息10分鐘好 謝謝謝謝主席 請工部長請工部長"},{"start":7814.136,"end":7827.441,"text":"好 部長在日本跟菲律賓在5月28日有發表聯合的聲明宣布兩國的將啟動以專屬的經濟海域的這個大陸價化界的這個談判那這個談判是要釐清這個整個經濟海域的邊界那這次談判裡面的話大概都在我們的我們台灣的東部的這個外海的範圍"},{"start":7839.505,"end":7857.942,"text":"那這個東部外海範圍的話在我們台灣東部外海範圍那跟我國的經濟還應該是有重疊的但是在這個談判當中並沒有把我們中華民國列入但是會影響到我們的那個影響到我們的利害關係所以我們不應該是個隱形人一樣都沒有"},{"start":7858.742,"end":7882.171,"text":"來介入所以經濟部應該要請外交部要來出面但是我們看到外交部他卻是公開的讚許說他們做得很好所以這個事情的話我們經濟部一定要有個角色出來因為在這個談判裡面最重要就談了就是我們整個經濟海域的主權跟我們整個海洋的權益包括這個能源的問題等等那尤其在台灣的周邊我們現在我們的有在"},{"start":7886.172,"end":7913.253,"text":"棕油有在那個炭勘油氣有在炭勘油氣的部分那在整個日費裡面 談判裡面我們是不是在話界談判要更加的去了解沙盤推演一下會不會影響到我們經濟的海域跟我們棕油的這個油氣的炭勘的問題有沒有影響 有沒有報告委員 現在我們在這些相關的區域裡面是沒有在做這個油氣炭勘目前來講"},{"start":7914.514,"end":7938.561,"text":"我們在台灣周邊沒有做郵寄探勘就是日飛這一次比較在我們台東邊我們這一次是什麼意思東邊啊就是日飛在我們台灣的東邊我說我們台灣自己棕油公司對啊在這些區域裡面目前都沒有所以說不會影響我們目前看起來是還好不會影響我們目前看起來是我們棕油沒有在附近探勘"},{"start":7939.601,"end":7964.547,"text":"對 就是現在他們這次的日飛的這個在我們東海岸的部分我是說周瑜有沒有在我們台灣周邊做這個油氣的探勘我們過去曾經在西南海岸曾經有不過目前是暫停的狀況就沒有在做那也不代表說我們台灣周邊沒有這個油氣的部分所以我剛才講說目前可是他現在是依照我們聯合國的這個"},{"start":7969.168,"end":7992.594,"text":"聯合國他們的這個對於這個海洋法的公約裡面劃定的這個區域是在200里200里這個位置200里的話日、非、台灣就是有重疊的經濟海域對不對有重疊的部分的話我們就應該要有角色要來介入要來瞭解否則的話未來我們台灣周邊如果有這個油氣的時候或天然氣的時候我們"},{"start":7993.334,"end":8013.808,"text":"我們都會影響到我們整個經濟價值啊 對不對所以我們經濟部應該要出面請外交部要斡旋來談一下三方因為整個海洋的這個資源能源啊我們應該有三方做一個制定一個機制來讓我們的這個海域上的經濟價值我們可以有角色"},{"start":8014.668,"end":8033.938,"text":"譬如說我們現在有個爭議部分 我們就擱置爭議然後協調出個三方能夠共榮共立的地方 可不可以是的 是的 如果真的有這樣的遊戲產生那我們要維護我們的權益 我們會因為已經重疊了 兩百里這個經濟海域是重疊的是不是 一定會重疊嘛"},{"start":8035.583,"end":8053.207,"text":"所以我們要捍衛我們自己的權益這個請部長一定要跟外交部來說明請他們要注意我們經濟海域整個油田或者油氣天然氣各方面我們要保障我們的權益好不好因為像漁民的話我們跟台日有漁民的協議跟台飛也是有合作的協議"},{"start":8059.309,"end":8066.076,"text":"比照漁業的這個協議方式我們來進行這個整個遊戲探勘大家共同來探勘的經濟價值共享好不好好這個要注意的那再來的話要談的就是說現在因為AI帶動了這個股價站穩的問題整個在這個經濟的表現是非常亮眼的但是經濟的成長也提高到快要"},{"start":8084.634,"end":8096.245,"text":"10%了 9.46%在這種情形之下我們台灣的經濟一片看好但是我要提醒部長不是只有AI跟所有的那個我們的台積電或者是我們的半導體等等還有很多的我們台灣的這個傳統產業製造業也需要我們台灣來我們產業自己要來自發性的能夠來觀望跟協助他們好不好"},{"start":8108.277,"end":8125.622,"text":"那尤其是我們傳統產業我們看到他們在研發方面都著重在電子跟電腦部分他將近佔了八成那其他的那個我們的製造業方面像機械金屬塑膠的話寥寥無幾都沒有那我們經濟部應該要協助我們產業因為你去開發去研發出來創新的話你的產業產值才會提高會 是不是在產種條例裡面我們針對這個研發補助事實上"},{"start":8137.466,"end":8146.917,"text":"是不分產業的甚至於它還有一個門檻就是說它有一個上限所以對中小微企業是更有幫助那這一次我們中小微的這個成長條例發展條例我們會重修會修的中小企業會比大企業它研發的抵減稅率會更高"},{"start":8156.869,"end":8171.24,"text":"那我們補助也會更多所以你是鼓勵他們多來研發嘛那他們講的都成本問題啦那有譬如說他們如果沒有研發提高品質的話沒有競爭力整個都會被限制而且整個員工的薪水也沒辦法提高這都相對的一樣的一條"},{"start":8172.601,"end":8179.05,"text":"那個供應鏈的影響力非常非常的大所以創新轉型很重要就是研發的強化那這個部分除了我們這個經費上的支持之外比如說他在研發的過程當中他併用的人力也好或採買機器可以獲得補助之外"},{"start":8190.544,"end":8208.16,"text":"事實上他稅也可以獲得一些抵減那我們會來支持他們重新這些研發跟創新的一些相關的所以本席要提醒的就是就以我們工具機的這個產業來講的話以前工具機過去的話上兆的產值現在是逐年下降 下降到2023年剩下1059億到2025年不到1000億 813億而已"},{"start":8214.605,"end":8225.093,"text":"所以上兆產業現在都沒有上千億喔對 所以我們的確是像委員這邊所述的就是說我們現在是協助供給區切入包括半導體還有電子業他們的這個供應端讓他可以"},{"start":8230.156,"end":8241.923,"text":"在這個成長的過程中也趕上這班的列車因為我們很多AI跟我們的半導體的部分他們也需要一些機器設備那機器設備大概都是用日本跟美國的我們是不是可以輔導一下用我們國內產業的因為我們國內產業用工具機組都是很棒"},{"start":8250.407,"end":8267.664,"text":"很棒的啊現在台積電它的後端的相關設備有賣原國內的嗎有很多的部分前端的部分可能那是主要是ASMO或是那個是當然是稍微困難一點但是屬於後端的製程的部分封裝的部分大部分都開始用國內的這些設備業者"},{"start":8269.667,"end":8274.592,"text":"所以經貿部也可以有個角色在協助我們的工具機可以在國內的工具機可以在我們的整個半導體產業裡面可以在國際競爭上有個角色有個市場好不好"},{"start":8284.603,"end":8307.77,"text":"現在AI伺服器的這些大的廠商他們也非常樂意就是說他們工藝鏈可以建構我們國內的這些所謂的傳統性產業都可以把它一起整合起來把整個工具機組這個產值能夠提高機器之母就是工具機所以我們要扶持在我們國內的產業讓它在市場上有個晉升的角色好不好好的謝謝"},{"start":8310.353,"end":8315.468,"text":"好 我們謝謝劉盈瑩委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":8336.141,"end":8336.541,"text":"好請部長及兩位署長"},{"start":8350.922,"end":8373.661,"text":"中委好部長好今天我的題目呢防晶片疏中法規要趕快補漏競速遏止擴大水位集聚來符合水資源的順位來我先請教部長晶片的用途很多元武器也是嘛對不對對那現在成熟製程的晶片說一般導彈無人載具各式武器那高階的先進晶片可以用在精準導彈超級電腦跟傳統管制哪一種需要管制"},{"start":8374.701,"end":8401.877,"text":"現在只要用這個武器的部分基本上所以這兩種不管是高階先進的還是承受製程的都應該進行流向管制對不對對所以我們現在有那個實體清單只要這個實體清單跟對岸的有軍事用途有關的我們放到實體清單裡面不只這樣子喔有沒有看到這個新聞今年3月的時候美超為內鬼走私揮打晶片對不對是的那鬧得很大上週已經開始那個地檢已經開始跟他們起訴了"},{"start":8402.637,"end":8415.362,"text":"那麼他們是違反了美國進出口管制條例EAR那麼目的要限制中國取得先進晶片而且呢據說啊這也是美方提供情資那我們的人呢再去抓人是這樣嗎"},{"start":8419.076,"end":8434.569,"text":"報告委員好,事實上我們跟美方持續在針對相關的管制有在合作所以根據美方的EAR他提供情資我們台灣就抓人但是在去年我們看到台灣據報導台灣對華為和中興實質技術出口管制"},{"start":8440.234,"end":8450.472,"text":"是針對這兩家公司啊請問美超委的內軌轉賣輝達的產品是透過第三國東南亞到中國哪個公司是華為嗎 是中興嗎部長 是不是這兩家"},{"start":8453.184,"end":8478.92,"text":"應該不是 應該不是 來部長 我請部長講喔如果說美國的EAR賣到中國就不行那我們台灣居然只限定不能賣給華為跟中興這樣對嗎報告委員他現在我們當然跟美方齁有持續的在溝通看看怎麼樣做我是說美方說只要賣到中國的有軍事用途的高階的就不行但是台灣自己"},{"start":8479.62,"end":8507.814,"text":"自己要求自己的高科技管制只限定不能到華為跟中興會不會不夠啊我們會跟美方有一個討論我們自己要不要要求啊會 我先問一下我們為什麼要制裁這些國家中國 北韓 伊朗 伊拉克 敘利亞 蘇丹為什麼我們對這些國家要進行戰略性高科技物品的管制清單包括軍商兩用的 包括一般軍用的軍事武器用途的是不是 你說的管制安全是幹嘛那為什麼我們要對這幾個國家下手"},{"start":8510.599,"end":8528.268,"text":"對 因為他可能會用到軍事用途不是啦 是因為這幾個國家 美國都制裁啦我們是跟著美國去制裁的 對不對這幾個國家就是因為恐攻跟美國在很多地區掀起了軍事對抗所以美國制裁他所以我們也跟著制裁 對不對"},{"start":8530.007,"end":8559.047,"text":"我們現在還是針對這個瓦森納協定相關規範有一些規範美方我們是配合他有跟他互相的溝通那因為他如果這個廠商在台灣如果違反了美國法令我們會跟美方做一些溝通所以其實很清楚今天民主同盟這個不是隨便說說嘛台灣跟美日這些民主同盟我們對這些有敵意的軍事威脅的國家我們都會一起同步動作嘛對不對好往下看"},{"start":8559.987,"end":8582.651,"text":"但是目前在我們自己國家 我們所謂的戰略性高科技護品附中只有12項貨品受限 包括半導體 製造設備那其他的呢 戰略性的是適用非管制地域的規定為什麼 為什麼我們只有這12項不像美國或其他國家清的那麼長什麼原因 時空背景是什麼"},{"start":8584.481,"end":8603.586,"text":"報告委員我們還是回歸到那個瓦斯納協定這個部分有軍事用途那這12項是瓦斯納協定嗎12項半導體的晶圓製造設備是嗎報告委員當初這12項是因為我們為了保持在比如說我們對中國投資那我們需要維持我們的競爭優勢沒有錯啦"},{"start":8605.475,"end":8632.503,"text":"部長 劉組長說出來了啦早年在半導體晶圓我們是既競爭又合作我們跟中國是台廠到中國設廠組裝台灣的晶片去那邊組裝好了賣到美國去 賣到美國市場但是我們不希望中國能夠有先進晶圓的製造技術所以晶圓的製造設備是限制到中國的但是晶片沒有嘛因為晶片到那邊台廠裝好了就賣美國嘛 是不是這樣子"},{"start":8633.362,"end":8661.847,"text":"因為我們之前主要是限制去那邊做投資啦對啦 我的意思是說過去啊過去在國際分工上台灣跟中國和美國 美國是市場但是台灣的產業到中國設立用那邊我們的晶片到那邊組裝好之後賣到美國市場但是我們不讓中國取得高階晶片的製造技術嘛這是我們跟他競爭觀那現在不一樣了嘛現在全世界除了那幾個國家之外對台灣最有敵意的是不是中國"},{"start":8663.298,"end":8691.165,"text":"是 是嘛好那我們看一看所以這個問題要改了我們看下一頁有沒有把中國列為晶片的輸出管制區貿易法第27條27條之二如果是27條違法輸往管制區的要5年以下有期徒刑但是如果27條之二違法輸往未管制地區的是300萬華環請問一個刑事罰一個刑事罰中國現在我們晶片是屬於到中國是管制區還是未管制區你說明一下"},{"start":8692.026,"end":8718.781,"text":"目前不是管制區對嘛 部長有沒有看到很嚴重有沒有很嚴重美國都對我們美超為內鬼私下把揮打的晶片弄到中國去就要求我們配合制裁 配合處罰我們自己對我們的晶片往中國是非管制區欸法委員我們揮打這件事情來講的話也不是美方制裁而已因為它也違反我們自己的法律規定沒有刑責嘛"},{"start":8721.001,"end":8741.947,"text":"哪一個有刑責 署長剛剛說非管制區沒有刑責嘛我不是說那個案子 我說現在的晶片有沒有列入管制目前沒有 沒有的就是 請看沒有結果就是民團說要求旁邊的劉署長下台啦要求我們張明斌以前的投資臺灣公司下台啦部長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":8743.346,"end":8766.234,"text":"滿意嗎沒有 我是說因為我們跟美方之間我現在不是問美方對中國對台灣最不友善你對中國沒有任何的管制嗎我們會開始著手開始不夠啦現在人要你署長下台了啦你怎麼處置我們就是會開始著手怎麼做 你是要修改現在法規定還是另訂專門法律會修改相關的法律什麼時候修改"},{"start":8767.464,"end":8786.671,"text":"現在已經在在那個什麼時候可以給本級看 可以給委員會看因為8號委員還是等劉書長下台的時候還可以看沒有沒有 因為這個事情的話我們還要跟行政院跟國安單位要求討論部長我要說的是說過去台灣的法令跟美國有落差是因為我們過去台灣跟中國之間有一個合作競爭的關係是"},{"start":8788.032,"end":8798.709,"text":"現在他是全世界的公敵 天下圍攻美國要制裁 台灣跟進但是台灣自己的法律還把晶片輸到中國 把中國列為非管制區馬上改 可以嗎"},{"start":8800.663,"end":8822.883,"text":"可以嗎 馬上改報告委員 經濟部是執行機關我想 因為在這個事實上那個規定誰的 是主管機關沒有錯是嘛 你還說是執行機關 本事要改好不好但是涉及國安的部分涉及國安 立法院不能提喔可以可以 是嘛 在立法院黨 民進黨的國安天只有民眾黨跟國民黨啦 不是你經濟部啦"},{"start":8824.073,"end":8844.793,"text":"好 我們看一下下一題 台水公司連連虧損來 氣候變遷 漏水率太高 暫時造成了成本大漲 什麼原因 部長因為這個水價已經 應該30年了 幾十年沒有了因為水價太低對不對 說得好 我們就要看來 台水公司的建設誰出錢 水利署你們花了多少錢"},{"start":8846.127,"end":8867.904,"text":"水智能開發可以設備維護機會 都用自來水的嘛我念給你聽啊 浮流水開發23億多啦無自來水低於18億多啦 降低漏水13億多啦13億啦 總共52.5億 公務預算對不對部長 這不是水工資支出的他有分成兩個部分喔我知道 我就覺得是公務預算嘛那為什麼不是水工支出 因為水費太低嘛 你剛剛自己講了嘛"},{"start":8868.891,"end":8898.191,"text":"是不是 就水費太低沒有錢投資嘛往下看來 為什麼自來水法59條要怎樣 計算公式詳細細目最高段的水單價太低嘛有沒有二條了耗水費的徵收辦法第三條115年度水資源作業基金耗水費的收入全收多少7.2億 收太少了嘛公務預算支出了五十幾億我們的耗水費只收了7.2億部長 怎麼解決還有 水利法第15條水權有沒有付費"},{"start":8900.186,"end":8924.92,"text":"現在水權我們沒有在收費啊對 我想我們未來還是說因為基層哪一個先改水權要收水費先還是耗水費提高先還是把自來水法當中的最高段水價單價提高哪一個先做我覺得基層民眾的部分那個我們保障最高段的水單價太低沒有跟基層民眾有關哪一個要先做我覺得那個部分可以先做好 什麼時候做"},{"start":8926.192,"end":8933.417,"text":"我們即刻來規劃 規劃水公司誰管 國營司來 什麼都可以做了 我們一下看"},{"start":8935.027,"end":8962.038,"text":"來 仔細聽好 水資源是必需品水價要節付計平根據我們水利法第18條用水的標的民生用水優先人口最多它是需求必需品再來是農業生產才是工業用水工業用水又分能夠出口有競爭力能賺錢的這個就是高外匯收入是不是經濟部先救高外匯盈利收入的工業大戶的大用水戶他不需要補貼嘛"},{"start":8963.118,"end":8991.525,"text":"是不是提高他的單價我說我剛剛提到我們先從這個部分來做規劃好馬上就做那我們要看到明年我們測海水公司收的水費不要還是虧損累累都還要靠公務預算支出用人民的稅金來補貼可以嗎因為我們也鼓勵這些所謂的高耗水的大戶他可以節能或循環使用是沒有錯他都在做了但是再生水目前是誰投資做的經濟部嘛"},{"start":8993.545,"end":9012.843,"text":"我們經濟部也有 內政部也有他們這個再生水是誰在用大部分都是這些科技公司剛剛就說了嘛 這些能夠有外銷有競爭能力的 有創會能力的 成本可以轉嫁的他們用再生水 結果還是政府投資啊"},{"start":9014.195,"end":9040.829,"text":"部長有沒有覺得這樣不符合公民正義不過他們付出的水價是比較高的當然要付得比較高啊 他們可以轉嫁啊一個今天可以賣好幾千好幾萬美金為什麼不可能轉嫁但是我們一般的民生 小店家 家庭用水水價提高它就是生活的成本這個我們認為國家補貼 應該的但是對這些大用水戶尤其是特別具有移轉成本能力的這些創位能力的是不是要他趕快來下手"},{"start":9041.409,"end":9066.258,"text":"對,我剛剛提到了,我們會先從...好,那什麼時候可以給本席一個答覆?你們什麼時候開始做?規劃看看我們大概兩個月時間好不好?兩個月,那之前前面那一題我們對於書中的晶片管制的法規修改,什麼時候可以做?欸,那個我還是講,我們還是要跟國安單位討論一下那如果本席提案你會不會支持?立法院提案你會不會支持?"},{"start":9069.606,"end":9081.551,"text":"我們只能尊重啊尊重好那就這樣主席站起來了我相信主席也不會反對那我們就希望書中的晶片管制我們的貿易法第二十七條二十七條之二趕快的著手修改我們本院會提案謝謝"},{"start":9285.615,"end":9285.695,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":9354.875,"end":9356.101,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":9581.869,"end":9604.457,"text":"明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":9613.433,"end":9631.305,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":9784.79,"end":9788.132,"text":"好 接下來繼續開會那現在我們請謝依鳳委員質詢謝謝主席我想請經濟部廣播長請經濟部廣播長"},{"start":9810.887,"end":9822.474,"text":"部長早安我想請教一下川普總統說就是美伊的MOU19號簽你看會不會簽在哪裡簽看起來應該是有那樣的跡象在瑞士簽他在G7說的吧是在瑞士簽另外有一個說法是說因為"},{"start":9837.95,"end":9862.389,"text":"川普總統去G7嘛然後那個時程上可能會有一點來不及不會在19號他會用線上簽的方式電子簽的方式19號線上簽是不是這個可能還要再了解一下不過看起來是有是應該會簽的那如果簽了以後是不是代表了"},{"start":9863.069,"end":9879.016,"text":"未來的這個中東的衝突戰事減緩那赫木茲海峽以及就是這個相關的這些伊朗境內的這些天然氣還有油的生產什麼時候可以恢復正常"},{"start":9881.427,"end":9902.341,"text":"周邊的供應什麼時候會回復這個趨勢看起來是好的啦中間那個時間可能還是有一些delay的狀況第一個就是說因為太多的船在赫姆斯海峽要排隊那這個可能時程這樣會有一些延誤那另外一個就是有關於設備因為在戰爭時候受損比如說卡達"},{"start":9903.101,"end":9928.708,"text":"它的天然氣設備很多是受到損害那要維修可能要一段時間所以我想方向上是正面的但是那個時間不會一夕翻轉而是逐漸的逐漸的恢復我問了就是我們中油的這個油價在這幾個月以來因為中東衝突好像是不是已經漲了多少%"},{"start":9930.543,"end":9953.349,"text":"我們大概漲了十幾吧17%那天然氣呢天然氣的部分呢天然氣的部分民生是沒有漲那工業的部分大概調兩次的5%吧5%是不是好像兩次的樣子多久可以回到這個中東通俗之前"},{"start":9956.126,"end":9968.997,"text":"那要看整個國際的這個油價的趨勢對的我是說多久你預估嗎你們有沒有預估因為它這個整個慢慢的這個我們可以回覆啊"},{"start":9969.937,"end":9993.326,"text":"這是中小企業還有民生最重要的因為你看到嘛就是鼎泰豐他今天宣布了他的就是說售價要調漲3.5%到8點多%就是平均在5%左右代表了餐廳的營業成本已經在增加了那"},{"start":9993.746,"end":10016.039,"text":"如果在這個就是說我們就是一些零售的就是食品業的這樣子餐廳的價格增加恐怕會影響到整體的物價都在開始就進一步的調整那調整之後恐怕以物價的僵固性來講就不可能就是下來那在"},{"start":10017.8,"end":10034.929,"text":"在這個情況下所以民眾會擔心的是什麼時候可以恢復到一個平均的成本嗎因為現在民生的電價、油價基本上都沒有反應都沒有漲"},{"start":10039.071,"end":10059.568,"text":"那個餐廳啊 統裝瓦斯基本上也都沒有漲那當然它的反應物價可能不是因為油氣的關係 燃氣的關係可能是其他的成本上升那不過就是說我們行政院它都有一個物價的一個督導匯報"},{"start":10060.769,"end":10087.759,"text":"每個禮拜召開現在副院長都有召開我們會持續的觀察這個情況當然這一個月是有超過2%但是從主席總署的判斷來講的話一全年還是可以在2%以下但是我剛才特別提到隨著這個局勢的和緩如果這個油價有比較明顯的和緩下來的話我們也會適度的反映對 那什麼時候會回復到"},{"start":10088.939,"end":10105.611,"text":"那就要看整個油價的一些狀況你那個油價的那個什麼時候會回復啊因為它像鼎泰豐它那是大型的連鎖的嘛是不是那那個東西在台灣有非常多大型的連鎖的相關的都是以這樣子的營運來做"},{"start":10107.412,"end":10129.581,"text":"相關的就是有中央廚房等等或者是在地也需要有這樣子的人力的調配等那這個情況都有可能會影響到那所以是不是未來怎麼樣子會降低這個民生物價上漲的壓力那經濟部怎麼做呢是 報告委員因為我們這個"},{"start":10131.882,"end":10153.029,"text":"民生這個部分有關於相關的成本的問題這個本來就是我們的政策執行所在所以即便在這個國際的油價或氣價上漲的時候我們對於民生的用氣跟用電或用油基本上都是減緩的沒有大幅的上漲"},{"start":10155.49,"end":10169.21,"text":"另外當然企業界他們在做他們成本反應也不單單只是燃料的成本還有其他部分比如說租金的成本也好或者是說因為現在我們嘉興今年還是比較踴躍"},{"start":10170.532,"end":10190.424,"text":"那是可能也要適度的反映在這個價格上吧但是如果是因為這個加薪所反映出來我們也覺得這個是一個好事啦但是就是說我們的目的還是希望說全年的這個物價上漲率可以在2%以下這個還是我們的目標"},{"start":10191.084,"end":10214.572,"text":"是啊還有就是說當然還希望說就是中油跟台電的這個就是虧損能夠逐漸減少嗎是不是因為如果就是說那個中東通途所造成的油價的成本上升那對於這個他們所要負擔的穩定物價的成本就相對的提高嗎是不是那這也會涉及到預算的這個問題嘛對不對"},{"start":10217.293,"end":10245.792,"text":"對因為到上個禮拜為止中油在這個油價的吸收成本大概176億那當然也許還會再增加一點點也不一定但是我相信是已經和緩下來了往正面的發展那我們也跟行政院也答應就是說我們從三個方面來支持中油的一些發展包括預算的撥補的部分還有這個"},{"start":10247.454,"end":10262.774,"text":"投資資金公務預算的這個增加的部分還有這個融資的部分的協助那這個也感謝行政院已經開始著手這樣的這個協助了好那我還要問到就是說佐水溪的這個"},{"start":10264.036,"end":10278.841,"text":"水涵養的問題那我們知道說像那個台積電它在日本的熊本的地方它也協助就是當地的農田在收耕的時候養水去復養它的地下水層"},{"start":10279.721,"end":10305.434,"text":"那對於我們佐水溪的這個相關的地下水層的養水那水利署有沒有做進一步的因為這涉及到就是說現在是那個極端氣候嘛那有可能會面臨到缺水或者是未來如果我們彰化要增加工業區甚至像台積電這樣子的一個產業的時候怎麼能夠增加相關的用水啊是不是"},{"start":10306.094,"end":10334.488,"text":"報告委員 委員所談的這個方向是非常正確的我們在左水溪的河道內目前在赤潼林內的附近就河道裡面我們有大概是250公頃的土地把它圍起來那這邊就可以平常注水進去那注水進去它的效益很大就是一年大概將近6000萬噸的水它會慢慢流到我們中下游因為整個彰化雲林地區都是地層下限區"},{"start":10335.368,"end":10351.466,"text":"所以這個水質補充以後對整個地層下限幫忙很大然後第二個部分就是我們為了減緩很多地層下限高鐵的沿線所以將來會做一些農田把這個地下水用補助的方式進來所以謝謝委員給我們指導這個具體方向"},{"start":10354.509,"end":10379.484,"text":"農水署嘛對不對那是不是我也會再跟農水署跟農業部去做相關的要求那是不是讓水地署這邊也協助共同來補充彰化的地下水源讓彰化的用水無虞好不好那委員因為我們現在有地層下市房次的小組跟推動小組我們定期開會所以委員剛剛所談的我們會落實要求農業部一起來努力"},{"start":10379.824,"end":10396.653,"text":"好好謝謝 最後給我一個一分鐘我問一下部長就是在捐助中小企業現在面臨到就是雙軸轉型就是淨零跟數位轉型這個問題那再加上現在也有相關的"},{"start":10397.393,"end":10422.441,"text":"還有301的關稅的問題喔那怎麼樣協助中小企業在這一波當中能夠就是說不是用不只是用補貼因為用補貼或者是你們當初都是用計畫申請嘛那現在他們可能面臨到的就是說他們也不知道怎麼樣子進行這個數位轉型或者是他們在數位轉型能不能符合國際的趨勢然後變"},{"start":10424.642,"end":10446.01,"text":"因應這樣子整個就是說局勢的變化那經濟部怎麼做報委員除了我們當然有被動的門打開接受申請之外包括包括您剛才提到的這個計畫的補助也好或者是說這個貸款的補助也好但是我們也有主動式的就是我們有成立一個輔導團北中南東"},{"start":10448.331,"end":10477.729,"text":"那各有責任區然後去跟工協會、廠聯會合作然後把這個可能需要這個協助的這些中小微企業我們主動的去去他們做輔導先做診斷診斷以後有分層次他的數位轉型到達什麼樣的層次需要什麼樣的幫助那我們會借引介相關的資源給他讓他可以真的可以升級轉型變成從被動之外我們也有主動的部分"},{"start":10478.349,"end":10500.245,"text":"對 因為中小企業在這一波裡面的確受到國際情勢的變化影響非常大那非常需要經濟部來協助那希望說我們中小企業還有相關的顧問團能夠協助他們對於節能以及未來數位的轉型都能夠轉得順利可以嗎是 好 謝謝"},{"start":10504.858,"end":10520.014,"text":"好謝謝謝一鋒委員接下來我們請陳冠廷委員質詢那我們請部長請部長謝謝"},{"start":10528.967,"end":10544.714,"text":"部長好部長我看今天幾個這個委員們的討論大概都是討論到有些是討論到算力啦有些是討論到高科技的產業啦重要的這些經貿產業等等可是我還是要講一下這個均衡台灣絕對不是只有高科技"},{"start":10545.514,"end":10570.35,"text":"那当你们说要更多的这个电力来支持算力或者是用更多的经费来去支持这些企业的发展那我们最基本的民生需求水 自来水的盐管它现在还是遇到很大的挑战整个国家的经济成长率在不断的往上升人均所得到10万美元那我们的这个股市也是快要到5万点"},{"start":10571.01,"end":10599.479,"text":"但是在一些偏鄉在一些集水區域他們的自來水還是沒有辦法沿管那如果說我們要照顧每一位我們需要照顧的民眾的話我覺得這就是一個很大的落差這個落差之大讓我們很覺得就很奇妙就是說那我們要花這麼多的錢要普發要做這個社會福利但是不是只有把金錢發送給民眾才叫社會福利最基本的公共建設就是自來水的沿管這是我們遇到的一個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":10600.399,"end":10620.49,"text":"至少在嘉義縣不管是大埔鄉中埔鄉梅山鄉阿里山鄉還是有很多民眾根本就沒有辦法用到自來水那作為一個以發達國家來講對於一個已經要成為G20的國家來講我認為這個是在我們的國家裡面它還是一個未完成的一里路那你怎麼樣把自來水沿管怎麼樣把這個東西做好"},{"start":10621.01,"end":10639.355,"text":"我這邊就要來請教這個部長你覺得我們這近十年來的物價它的這個成長大概是多少這近十年來的這個施工不管是任何的公共工程它是不是都會追加運算增加許多經費是不是簡單的來跟我們回應一下大概增加大概幅度大概是百分之多少"},{"start":10639.875,"end":10658.511,"text":"我們現在分成兩個部分 沿館的部分已經把每一個單在一步一步我們先來講 我說現在公共工程包含校舍的建制啊 或者是我們國防外交的時候它有些軍營的建制大概這些公共工程的這個經費大概是追加大概大概是增加百分之多少"},{"start":10660.111,"end":10682.797,"text":"一個概念就好了就是你自己你們的印象也好你們自己掌握的數值應該有六成到一倍六成到一倍對不對六成到一倍那我跟你講一下我們現在我們自來水嚴管的要求每戶的成本至少要在第一個80萬以下如果是在自來水或者是集水區或者是在這個原住民的區域的話大概是在100萬那你說80萬到100萬幾年沒有變了"},{"start":10685.818,"end":10710.643,"text":"幾年沒有變的狀況之下你還要讓他們自來水沿館都要遇到這麼大的阻力嗎你自己都說公共工程至少都已經增加到六成以上的話我們的現在還是維持八十萬或者是一百萬這樣的有合理嗎如果不合理的話怎麼樣均衡台灣怎麼樣把水路的最後一路路把它完成基本的建設不是社會福利而已是基礎建設裡面最重要的一環難道自來水沒有辦法來去把這個整體的規劃來去調整嗎"},{"start":10712.363,"end":10737.139,"text":"不是這樣每一個每一個人都要去評比那每一次都達不到這個戶數的要求那變成要拆戶分戶然後到最後要把那個自來水鹽管沒有辦法完成甚至是減益自來水隨著人口老化也沒有辦法去組成管理委員會來去管理那這樣子政府有做到要照顧要均衡台灣要讓每一位民眾都往前走一步讓每一個縣市往前走一步而不是讓首都往前走23步嗎所以這是一個很簡單的問題啊部長你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":10739.54,"end":10766.824,"text":"有什麼還去改建包委員我們趨勢上還是真的是有調整這個單位價格的比如說過去每40萬到60萬然後調80萬現在也調到100萬了嘛對那現在就還是方向上還是一直在往這個方向40萬到60萬的時間點是多久60萬到80萬是多久大概十幾年前以前最高是60變100那以前是40現在變80所以其實有調整上次調整是什麼時候"},{"start":10767.984,"end":10772.667,"text":"我們其實這個滾動式的應該是大概五年前2020年跟2025年的台灣你知道我們的經濟成長率跟我們的物價指數漲多少嗎現在2020年的台灣跟2025年的台灣是能夠一併來去講的嗎"},{"start":10786.494,"end":10813.714,"text":"當時2020年的時候 我們的這個平均所得又是多少你這樣人工 物價 備料 那還有到這個我們現在還有土方的這個處理方式的這些經費都不斷的在提高的狀況之下你現在跟我說 我們這個是五年前 六年前因為我們也極力的爭取預算那這個預算總是要中央分配一定的預算給我們然後我們再把這個預算施作在這個民間的用途上對 那部長你又要打算爭取這個嘛"},{"start":10815.655,"end":10839.414,"text":"這個萬事沒有這個自然水級嘛你水電這個是最基本的民生的需求我一直在強調這件事情我真的覺得很遺憾就是這個東西已經幾年了我們從我們就業到現在每天都要遇到這個問題那每次集水區的特別是我們曾文水庫台灣最大的水庫之一他們那邊沒有自然水這是多麼令人"},{"start":10840.774,"end":10854.91,"text":"很遺憾很痛心欸說真的我們還是要極力爭取啦剛剛事實上也有委員提到的這個自然水公司他的這個財務狀況的問題我們也要可能要一併的去討論跟解決"},{"start":10855.931,"end":10878.531,"text":"當我們在遇到這個我們不要講印太我們講伊朗的這個戰爭的時候我們有各式各樣的補貼包含普通給這個大眾運輸工具包含計程車司機等等的時候我們現在講的是自來水那你們願意補貼這個北部的這些或者是重大這些都市因為只有都市才會有那個大量的這些租賃的客車嘛"},{"start":10879.251,"end":10904.965,"text":"但是我們這些已經十年二十年三十年的這個狀況我們還沒有辦法幫助他們我覺得很可惜當然我們甚至有人在這個交通委員會說要把這個不管是鐵路高架化來全面性做全國的調整為什麼會有辦法這樣子做調整因為我們國家的稅收在增加當我們國家的稅收在增加的時候我們不選擇來去照顧最需要幫助的一群人我們選擇要是發放這一次一次性的福利這樣對嗎 這樣是不對的"},{"start":10906.866,"end":10934.909,"text":"我到現在還是這樣覺得啦就是說能夠替這一群人來解決永久的問題它比起一次性的來去刺激消費都還是有幫助啦當然我們這個有各個不同的委員有不同的見解我們來補助評論但是像這一種包含這種橋樑的建設包含自然水的沿管這其實就是可以造福一幫百姓他是數十年都會有生活上面的生活水準上面的改變這比"},{"start":10936.23,"end":10964.729,"text":"這比說他們的這個因為這個是公共工程私人沒有辦法去做這件事情所以就算他們的所得他們人均所得不斷的增加面臨到的問題還是同樣的問題是 我想這個政策目標我們跟委員是一致的啦那我們就盡力看看可以爭取更多的預算新年的稅率會增加到史上最多喔不管是鎮交稅 鎮所稅那我們現在整個全台灣仔細盤點一下還剩下幾戶其實也不多了"},{"start":10966.41,"end":10980.486,"text":"現在最大水平是98 99接近100了嘛現在就是說可及的部分用沿管的方式我們盡力來做那另外大家就像您剛剛提到簡易自來水的部分我們會強化它的水質不是簡易自來水"},{"start":10981.007,"end":10993.22,"text":"就是人口老化已經沒有辦法成立委員會來去管理了所以他們要求的都是希望盡可能的嚴管嘛那如果可以在盡可能的嚴管有需求的作為之下你過去可以40萬提高到80萬你過去可以80萬提高到100萬你當然就可以從100萬來把它提升到200萬元"},{"start":10998.6,"end":11014.787,"text":"貨數已經很少了貨數已經非常少了比起你仔細算看仔細算看現在各個鄉鎮不斷地是用福利的方式來去回饋這個鄉民有些是在普發你仔細算這些經費的話如果拿去做整體的韌性建設這個硬體建設的話"},{"start":11016.528,"end":11037.555,"text":"其實全國的從99%把它延伸到100%了自來水的普及率100%理論上是一個經濟部長或者是自來水公司他們最大的榮耀因為他們完成人民的所需嘛我希望部長能夠仔細思考一下這個方面我們也跟行政院討論過了他們也是希望說往這方面去走好不好 拜託院長幫我們來想想辦法好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員謝謝部長 謝謝署長"},{"start":11044.046,"end":11054.295,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員林倩琦林倩琦林倩琦委員接下來我們請邱志偉召委來質詢"},{"start":11068.704,"end":11095.938,"text":"謝謝主席先請基金部鞏部長休息一下今天省九項基金四大本這個基金我看了一個晚上現在看頭暈了 但頭暈了腦袋也很清楚先從這個經濟特別收入基金其中推廣貿易基金是"},{"start":11100.603,"end":11125.071,"text":"劉書長 能源研究石油基金財政人員是吳書長中小企業是李書長三位書長你們所管的基金應該都很了解吧先問一下推廣貿易基金推廣貿易基金是劉書長你主管吧"},{"start":11127.18,"end":11152.57,"text":"這個基金的金額今年變成多少?今年變成多少?是大概58億 58億比去年度增加還是減少?比去年增加 減少大概2億左右 為什麼減少?主要是在ODA的這個部分"},{"start":11155.223,"end":11156.312,"text":"這個我看的不會比你"},{"start":11158.562,"end":11186.418,"text":"是所以你要來這邊來接受我的質詢你對你的預算你這基金要很清楚啊是好你們有沒有編列CPTPP的相關預算報告委員CPTPP部分我們一直有在雙邊架構推動所以比如說我們跟其他國家在進行雙邊會議的時候都會去提這個CPTPP的案子但是不會是單獨一個叫CPTPP的科目相關CPTPP的預算是在"},{"start":11186.758,"end":11210.714,"text":"你們從113年度整年度跟114年度上半年度你們貿易推廣計畫你們第一項持續推動加入CPTPP融入區域經濟整合對不對這是你們的工作計畫你說沒有你有工作計畫就要編列預算嘛是那我看你113年度你的計畫執行結果怎麼樣114上半年度你們執行成果怎麼樣"},{"start":11212.608,"end":11228.056,"text":"我先講我的想法啦CPPP是一個重要的這個經貿戰略它的難度很高因為有中國的因素那我們不能因為有中國的因素我們就不作為而且要更加繼續作為是如果這種情況之下你要表示政府的立場"},{"start":11229.036,"end":11250.481,"text":"我去日本我去甚至去秘魯我去這個加拿大為了GPP我談很多事這是從立法院的角度但行政部門你主管是國貿啊國貿署也好或者是外交部或者是OTC也好這都是你們共同要協助的工作那你有預算你就要去跟所有的相關的會員國去做一些的拜訪"},{"start":11251.241,"end":11265.711,"text":"譬如說部長你可以指派次長或者是指派署長署長如果官位太高副署長也可以你去12個會員國走一趟你去馬來你去文來你去越南代表我們這個宣誓說我們重視CPTPP這個議題重視難度很高有中國因素我一直強調但是我們還是要積極作為啊你沒有派人去完全沒有積極作為我們認為政府沒有這個決心嘛假設你跟這個所有的會員國去談論的過程中"},{"start":11281.922,"end":11305.92,"text":"我們最高目標是希望他們能夠支持台灣成立公眾小組如果這個大目標沒辦法達成我們可以退而求其次追求跟他們雙邊的經貿關係的強化嘛所以你那個大戰略觀啊你有這個預算你告訴我說沒有但是明明你有這個計畫你就要去執行你要去執行你要拿出成果啊"},{"start":11310.01,"end":11333.305,"text":"這個 來 那個署長你回應一下是 報告委員 像其實的確我們在推動CPTPP我們會配合行政院的這個CPTPP的工作小組的指示OECD決策 它是一個你前線作戰部隊是你們駐外人員是外交部的駐外人員 OECD是一個整合是一個決策者的角色 這我都很清楚那你們呢"},{"start":11334.085,"end":11358.515,"text":"你作為一個這個國際貿易主管機關這個是你的業務之一你要拿出作為 我一直強調你派個組長去 你派個次長去你派個副組長去 這也是一個宣示嘛我希望你在你這個基金預算裡面我給你支持我希望你要拿出繼續作為是好 你的問題到此好 謝謝委員下一位這個吳署長 能源署委員好這個"},{"start":11362.588,"end":11379.957,"text":"能源研究發展計畫裡面這個能源基金裡面這個113年度你們的工作的成果就參考全能經濟成長率納入人口氣候AI科技半導體發電的參數等等的參數預估113到122國內用電需求年全年成長率2.8對不對"},{"start":11388.062,"end":11409.817,"text":"對就是那個我們的那個叫做長期負載預測2.8嘛來那我看到114年度上半年度你們的工作成果好一樣是這些文字敘述描述但是你的數據是哪裡113年度跟114年度完全不一樣那你預估的成果呢"},{"start":11411.274,"end":11429.366,"text":"他的國內用電需求年均成長率數據是多少我們去年114年預估的比較低啦我記得好像是1.7但是跟委員報告那個部分我們每年都會滾動為什麼你們在你們工作報告沒有呈現出來那你在113年有成長你有寫2.8"},{"start":11431.836,"end":11455.856,"text":"這個我們在改進啦齁但是我跟委員報告就是說那個部分本來就是我們每年會滾動我用常識來理解這個電力的需求年輕的時候你到AI包括這個算力中心應當是往上爬才對啊那你11342.8114上半年你說變1.7這個我很難理解而且你沒有在你的報告中去呈現啊"},{"start":11458.446,"end":11482.857,"text":"好不要以為說這個立法委員都不看你們預算書我是看的比你還細因為我還搭高鐵你不用搭高鐵另外這個部分你們去檢討一下是是是到底你這個用電需求成長率是多少我們才能做用電規劃嘛是好你委託這個葉子代儲正午除油幾萬公畢呃"},{"start":11487.458,"end":11501.447,"text":"這個是common sense啊這個如果還答不出來這個 署長你要加油那個數字我再跟這數字我不是看這個我本來就知道啊183 283萬公筆每年都是283你那113年都委託業主代儲政府除了280萬公筆儲氣呢"},{"start":11508.946,"end":11530.036,"text":"除氣的部分我們沒有委託只有委託葉子代為280萬公平280萬公平大概幾天的安全除量42天左右因為我們有政府除油跟葉子的除油兩塊那總共加起來現在大概差不多現在比較高 可能大概超過160天"},{"start":11531.974,"end":11549.906,"text":"多少 116天 160天我們安全所有160天所以民間的280萬公秉委託這個業者儲存的這個部分有沒有可能再提高因為我們現在政府處理喔 受到一些限制"},{"start":11551.007,"end":11562.394,"text":"稍微一些限制如果委託民間業者在外出遊這個出遊量有沒有可能283公里再提高各位報告我們現在政府出遊其實也是委託業者去儲存"},{"start":11563.857,"end":11589.094,"text":"就是我們政府其實沒有蓋儲槽所以你280萬全部都是儲油總量對對對我們沒有政府去儲油政府的部分政府部分它有一個法令我再釐清一下我們只有安全存量是不是有兩塊一塊是政府儲的就是我們委託業者去儲那另外一塊是我們要求業者要儲那總共加起來政府也是委託業者去儲那業者也要儲"},{"start":11592.163,"end":11607.451,"text":"對 業者自己也有責任280萬公筆我們花多少錢請業者代儲我們一年多少21億的補助金21億請民間代儲那民間的安全水平下民間業者自己儲多少"},{"start":11608.396,"end":11631.232,"text":"民間的存量我們的規定是要60天以上對啊 283萬政府代儲的是40%左右對不對你說 剛剛你說40%40幾天40幾天 好那我們安全是幾天我們現在總共的安全存量是政府是30天然後業者是60天所以總共90天這是法定的但是我們通常會超過"},{"start":11632.609,"end":11661.036,"text":"會超過這個量對你現在越講我越糊塗你這個會後因為我沒那麼多時間會後我再補充給委員另外你們氫能推動小組我看你113年的成果跟114年300年的成果好你們導入這個國際氫能相關的技術電製型燃料電池發電系統設置補助要點對你知道這個嗎對好成果怎麼樣113年你們核定建制的容量是多少MW"},{"start":11665.098,"end":11690.172,"text":"那個數字那個數字我在基本上你們上來每一個署長都要帶一本這個預算書2.05MW全台檢總建制量也是3.45MW那你們2014年呢2014年的容量有沒有增加如果要增加才是合理你沒有增加代表說你對親人沒有積極去推動啊是不是"},{"start":11695.262,"end":11715.595,"text":"處長這些問題因為我實現到我不太習慣我不太習慣無邊際延長我聽到有人還要講到30分鐘我很不可思議我不會無邊際延長我會有限度的做一些這個時間的增加也要經過這個主席的同意好那請你先回座下一位來 中長謝署水資友還沒有時間問"},{"start":11723.518,"end":11748.631,"text":"來,你們林口新創園區聚落你們成果,我們這個服務431家新創中小企業那去年度是396家那基因額呢?包括我們在南部有南科、南卵、高卵跟竹醫育成中心"},{"start":11749.881,"end":11766.577,"text":"你們在100幾年度113年度你們是總共多少金額?13億13億嗎?你是講相關的權利金的收入是不是?我講促成這個投資的金額促成投資金額是"},{"start":11768.12,"end":11790.001,"text":"因為主要新創園跟育成中心主要是作為一個培育新創企業的一個場地我知道了我要告訴你說為什麼這個扶植的加速是一樣的但是去年可以到13億今年上半年只有0.76億這差別在哪裡你回去看你預算書我的問題完全是來自你預算書"},{"start":11791.242,"end":11816.497,"text":"你要了解說你把提供這個特別是在高卵在高卵你們在育成中心所培育的中小企業總共有幾家你把113年度整年度跟114年度上半年度的加數給我高卵的部分然後促成投資的這個金額數有多少因為這個落差太大"},{"start":11819.872,"end":11835.638,"text":"因為國務委員報告他每一年的新增的投資金額可能也是要看他那個加速是差不多為什麼金額差了十幾倍你要去了解一下是不是行政有問題那我後面還有水資源後面還有這個產業園區沒關係再找個梁承基實在的問"},{"start":11841.872,"end":11867.17,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 謝謝邱組長我這樣質詢就是要請您去理解這個我質詢重點在哪裡這個Dyson預算說實在這預算書每一個每一個署長都要帶在帶在這個手上馬上馬上應該對數據應該要很精進去掌握謝謝好 謝謝邱組委召委接下來我們請這個葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":11884.579,"end":11885.422,"text":"主席好 我們請部長請工部長 謝謝"},{"start":11894.212,"end":11921.226,"text":"同樣就能源的議題跟您請教因為這兩天大家看到那個深威能源準備要下市了那這裡有兩個可以關心的點第一個點是原本深威所承接的是離岸豐電的二期是副威 副威他副威得標啦他母公司是深威他是他的母公司那現在的問題是說那個二期原本是說去年的下半年就應該要商轉"},{"start":11922.547,"end":11942.492,"text":"就是等於可以開始發電了但現在已經是2026年的6月了等於大概已經將近晚了一年多那目前的進度我看到經濟部包括就是相關單位都有出來講不過講的數據沒有統一啦有人是說進度已經達到90不然是說90嘛對不對那有人是說96"},{"start":11944.521,"end":11955.726,"text":"都是講的不一樣90以上那聽起來這個90這個數字感覺上很快完工可是實際上剩下沒有完成的部分就是最困難的"},{"start":11956.5,"end":11975.927,"text":"沒有 是最簡單的沒有啦 這個他接下來要最困難是機裝的部分 打機裝 打機儲打機裝啦 對但是他要海上吊掛也不容易啦那個他要併網測試那些那個都已經準備好了準備好 但是都還沒有做電纜 電纜 電纜也弄好我是 部長你樂觀當然我們也是樂觀啟程因為我們希望這個錢做要趕快商轉就是"},{"start":11982.89,"end":12001.051,"text":"那馬上跟你講一下進度好不好,第一個,到底完成90以上嗎?第二個,你的講法就是說,現價部分是很簡單的,所以很快可以完成,所以以你來預估啊,因為現在已經慢了一年了,那大概什麼時候,這個二期,離岸風電的二期會開始上轉,開始發電?"},{"start":12002.592,"end":12019.788,"text":"就是說包委員就是現在就是說我剛才提到的電纜也鋪好了其他都做好了那現在就是說天候狀況如果好的話他船也準備好了就會把這個機裝就會把上面的那個裝風機齁載出去把它裝上去那差不多的話"},{"start":12021.346,"end":12037.398,"text":"因為如果天氣好一天就可以裝一次啊所以說我們最快的話大概年底今年年底可以商轉對把它裝完裝完以後明年就可以併網明年什麼時候大概明年開始就可以那現在是誰要做這個事情還是一樣是富威嗎"},{"start":12039.266,"end":12060.298,"text":"現在合約來講的話是付威但是他不是執行執行者執行者是他的供應商我知道還是由他負責就對了他沒有解約因為現在有消息是講說他們想要解約然後會有看到經濟部台電是說沒有關係即便解約還是會把他著手完成可是現在聽部長講法是說他們還是會把他完成"},{"start":12062.061,"end":12082.555,"text":"沒有 還在協商當中對嘛 還在協商就是不代表會這樣所以可能光是協商但是工程一定在持續進行當中問題是如果協商因為還在合約當中第一個就是他還在合約當中第二個不然你剛剛說在協商嘛協商是有可能就解約嘛那如果解約 那由誰來做這件事"},{"start":12082.975,"end":12109.755,"text":"解約的話他的供應商會完成還是由他的供應商會完成對所以您是很有信心大概明年上半年嗎對 今年底我們會想要裝置完成所以明年大概明年上半年還第一季就會開始商轉對好 這個好 這是第一件事情就是進度的部分是第二個是因為那個深威他準備要下市裡面有很多小股東我覺得這個"},{"start":12111.994,"end":12129.154,"text":"很多人忽然間買的股票當初是因為政府一直講說風電光電嘛國家對呀看好啊所以去買這個股票結果沒有想到政府看好的國家對也會有一天走上下市變成幣值這我不知道部長你的有沒有什麼話要對這些股民講"},{"start":12131.797,"end":12154.376,"text":"就經濟部來講我們的目的就是說如果這些風機得標以後按照合約來進行那可以按照同樣的時程它可以裝置完成併網那這個是我們最重要的我是說面對這些血本無歸的這個看好政府講的國家隊然後去投資的這些股民數萬名股民"},{"start":12155.937,"end":12184.247,"text":"然後因為相信政府啦我昨天還特別去查了2050年行政院講的淨零碳排的網站還是繼續講2050淨零碳排大概債政人員會佔六成其中主力是風電跟光電所以政府到現在還在講說要發展光電跟風電所以大家講說國家隊去投資啊結果怎麼知道國家隊也會下市那對這些股民情何以堪啊所以我想說部長有沒有什麼話跟他們講啊"},{"start":12185.492,"end":12188.088,"text":"剛剛工程進度您回答了我說就這些股民而已"},{"start":12189.034,"end":12216.109,"text":"因為我們不方便對股市個案做一些評論我覺得應該也是蠻遺憾的然後再來我想問一下那個屋頂型光電因為接下來有一個新制說蓋新大樓都要裝屋頂型光電主要是內政部主政因為能源局有回應那回應什麼呢因為有委員或外界會擔心主要是看到去年丹納斯颱風"},{"start":12217.149,"end":12242.745,"text":"來了之後結果中南部有一些屋頂型光電被吹下來了嘛有一些只剩支架或者是光電板下來那後來我看能源局講法是說有改新規啦現在如果住宅要蓋那個光電板的話要能夠防十七級陣風所以說不會有這個問題這個是能源局的回應那第一個就是那之前的屋頂型的光電板咧之前的咧你們有"},{"start":12243.462,"end":12263.792,"text":"屋頂型好像都一直有要求 都要求那上次的風吹的主要是地面的問題也有屋頂的所以第一個就是說針對已經有的屋頂型的供電板那如果你的新規是17級要防止抑震風我們這個規定事實上比很多的違章建築都還要嚴格"},{"start":12271.65,"end":12291.895,"text":"原則非常多啊但重點是就是之前就是有光電板被吹下來嘛我現在兩個面向嘛第一個是之前已經裝的會被吹下來的你們有沒有什麼管理的方法嘛第二個是說那現在要求建商以後都要防17級陣風那光電板管理都是內政部主政嘛"},{"start":12292.535,"end":12318.637,"text":"我是不是說當初訂這個規定的時候有沒有跟內政部討論說未來是要有住戶來管理這個光電板其實衍生管委會或者是一般住戶很大的負擔那這個部分有沒有跟內政部討論說會不會有管理上的問題跟委員幫那時候在跟內政部談的時候就談到說未來這個建好以後那個管委會接手的那些管理的方式那個都有在全部在規劃當中有陪同"},{"start":12319.438,"end":12341.661,"text":"對啊 那問題是管委會其實平常要管的社區的事項就已經還蠻多的那現在多了一個光電板要他們來管理 要他們來維護而且會在屋頂上面佔了很大一個面積 影響他們的空間跟委員報告一下 他這個就像我們一般住戶大樓不是有些電梯嗎那些電梯的定檢 就像類似那種定檢的房子去處理"},{"start":12343.254,"end":12362.942,"text":"電梯是因為大家一定要搭電梯嘛現在是你們能源局給住戶新增的負擔嘛所以是因為那個太陽光電廠也會增加那個用戶他的供電韌性所以他以後他建好以後他那個太陽光電譬如說白天發電的時候那個部分他用戶就可以"},{"start":12364.463,"end":12379.271,"text":"因為住戶一定會增加負擔所以在這個部分內政部你們跟內政部有去跟官員會去溝通就之後的啦有沒有一個什麼機制可以讓他們了解還是說就是他們房子買了以後這個就給他們那也不知道要怎麼弄"},{"start":12380.191,"end":12406.167,"text":"有沒有相關的內政部他們都有跟住戶有跟建商或住戶他們做過溝通才會這樣來做一些配套措施而且這個太陽光電事實上對這個電源安全的韌性也會有幫助如果天災人禍因為你大樓來講的話你還是要有一個緊急用電設備將來太陽光電也可以類似有這樣的功能"},{"start":12407.602,"end":12429.341,"text":"那也要剛好有太陽啦晚上也不行啦是啊 對啦 當然我是覺得你們還是要跟內政部因為配合經濟部做的這個措施其實會影響到很多管理會的管理啦還是要多溝通啦不然大家還是會有疑慮形勢有很多種啦甚至於就是說他的這個上面是租給這個開發商那開發商就會幫他們管理OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":12432.976,"end":12448.707,"text":"好 謝謝葉永志委員這跟我的問題是一樣啊 300坪的屋頂的光碟面板還是要好好考慮一下 謝謝好 再來的話我們請侯孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請經濟部龔部長好 我們請龔部長"},{"start":12461.704,"end":12477.13,"text":"好 部長好美國商會發布2026年台灣白皮書那其中對於我們很重要AI的成長他是高度的支持跟注意但是他也講到說AI成長的話台灣有個很大隱憂什麼隱憂"},{"start":12481.195,"end":12503.846,"text":"因為全世界都一樣 因為電力上來全世界都一樣呢 它在台灣我現在討論美國商會台灣白皮書嘛兩個部分嘛 第一美國商會專不專業經濟部重不重視 第二這一個白皮書它有沒有任何的這個政黨色彩 沒有嘛它就是一個外商對於台灣投資的一個報告嘛"},{"start":12504.366,"end":12521.412,"text":"那很重要嘛 裡面他有講到是說電力問題是 甚至有講到說可能是國安層級嘛是不是 台灣面臨到供應中斷時的緩衝能力以及供應供給的彈性明顯不足嘛這個是報告裡面有講到 已經媒體有報導了嘛"},{"start":12521.914,"end":12539.245,"text":"所以不用說在這邊那是不是對照不管是我們賴清德總統還是我們民進黨政府過去一而再再三強調2032以前台灣都不用缺電大家放心但很明顯的很顯然的美國商會並不買單並不接受嘛"},{"start":12540.306,"end":12555.144,"text":"所以說他提出來一個質疑跟提出來一個提醒其實我覺得部長您先耐心聽一下本席的結論我覺得這個是不分藍綠黨派在野執政都要面對啊"},{"start":12555.845,"end":12578.927,"text":"我是在野黨但是我也不希望美國商會跟我們講是說台灣的電力供應不足啊我也希望補齊啊所以應該是看到這樣子的一個建議看到這樣的一個提醒趕快去想是說我們還可以怎麼樣來做而不是又要再扯說沒有啦平行失控啦兩個世界啦台灣就是反正我們賴政府很英明神武啊要電電就有啊部長"},{"start":12582.384,"end":12601.878,"text":"我可以說明嗎來說明一下謝謝因為我看了他們這一次反而比較強調的是韌性的部分電網韌性還有安全的部分這個兩個是強化起來那我說事實上我們過去來講把電網韌性啊或者是分散式能源啊安全的能源"},{"start":12603.699,"end":12628.408,"text":"這個韌性跟安全已經提升到安全等級這個國安等級這個本來就是所以我們這個CIA的這個關鍵基礎建設已經把各個電廠事實上視為關鍵基礎正式加強防備然後有分散式的電源讓這個韌性可以增加那我想我們這個部分都有在做當然如果有還有不足我們可以來努力可以來強化部長"},{"start":12629.048,"end":12636.519,"text":"那個報告我這樣聽你這樣講啦說實在我尊重你的專業但我很明顯的報告其實看起來你是沒有看為什麼"},{"start":12638.888,"end":12664.907,"text":"你一直在講我們台灣內部的狀況人家其實裡面報告直指的是我們現在的能源發電結構是有問題的我們長期95%是依賴火力發電包括50%的燃氣以及30%的燃煤而它裡面特別提到是說有供應不足的緩衝能力跟彈性明顯不足是因為我們依賴進口的ING廠已經變成是主要來源"},{"start":12665.828,"end":12679.413,"text":"高度依賴進口的發電結構讓台灣容易受到地緣政治的衝突而影響能源供給中斷人家講的是這個結果我剛剛也給你時間了結果你一直在講說我們國內的供應的狀況風馬牛不相干啦你真的是牛頭不對馬嘴啦來啦 部長"},{"start":12689.549,"end":12704.446,"text":"第二個部分我先請教一下來我先請教一下我們看到說因為現在台電這個虧損超過3600億那也要比照中油模式由政府擔保透過八大公股銀行來提供3000億的專案融資來維持營運確定了嗎"},{"start":12709.996,"end":12733.574,"text":"這個的確是行政院跟央行有在協助 沒有錯是 但我看到是經濟部主導啊因為它主要是我們台電公司對 兩個部分嘛第一台電虧損3600億這是事實那現在要跟八大公股銀行這邊來算是借錢啦融資或借錢啦對 但是它主要是那還有提出來有一個媒體先講是說是中華郵政的錢"},{"start":12735.063,"end":12758.057,"text":"那我今天在樓上交通委員會我也特別問了中華郵政董事長中華郵政董事長是說他們是用儲金的方式定存給八大公共銀行所以八大公共銀行拿定存的錢再來融資給台電好 那不管怎麼樣啊都是用戶都是全民買單可是我們要問的是說這一筆錢有辦法回嗎"},{"start":12760.105,"end":12772.922,"text":"有辦法償還嗎當然有 因為它是貸款所以它符合金融的相關的這個規定都符合了半年所以我們貸款期要多久貸款期現在三年那三年的還款計畫現在有出來了嗎"},{"start":12774.464,"end":12800.852,"text":"所有的這個營運資金都是這樣他短期債了你還了以後你可以再借沒問題我又說現在本席要問的是有借有還再借不難啊我也期待你講到這一點啊所以說這個就是交通委員會千計委員會跟交通委員會這邊都要一起來把關啊那我想問的是說現在來我想問的是說現在這個還款計畫會不會拿出來會不會經過立法院送審還是直接你們就是講好就好了"},{"start":12802.167,"end":12829.307,"text":"應該是應該是不用吧跟委員報告因為他這個是給他一個額度啦三年之內他隨時可以借但借的時候呢他的期限是只有一年所以誰規定的你今年這樣子就虧損了三千多億說實在話如果說是民間公司啊如果說是民間公司啊我沒有政府當保人啊今天看起來是政府當莊家政府當保人壓著公股銀行說你們一定要借給台電啊"},{"start":12829.807,"end":12849.772,"text":"如果說是今天是一般的銀行啊他去看到一家公司突然間過去表現良好然後今年突然虧損了三千多億啊虧損到自己的資本額啦我覺得任何銀行都不敢放款但是就只有我們台電非常偉大因為有一個民進黨政府當靠山當後盾所以才壓著銀行這邊來給啊"},{"start":12854.274,"end":12858.341,"text":"虧損 事實上它吸收了超過6000億那現在是零1000億 虧損是3000億部長 你要這樣講內行人講外行人的話那就不對了過去我們沒有用總預算來去補排電的虧損嗎"},{"start":12867.714,"end":12891.713,"text":"補了超過2500億、3000億吧每一次特別預算2023年特別預算是不是有1500億就是給台電虧損那個時候第十屆的時候民進黨國會多數的時候是不是要通過多少預算來撥補台電虧損就通過多少預算我都不想講你都是拿人民的納稅錢去補這個漏洞那現在我們一直講"},{"start":12892.884,"end":12901.21,"text":"大家能源問題共同面對但是我們也一直提醒所以我們也一直提醒說你的能源結構發電結構要不要檢討"},{"start":12904.206,"end":12925.046,"text":"不檢討美國商會跟你講能源結構有嚴重的問題可能會有地緣政治的關係也充耳不聞然後現在台電持續的虧損你們也不檢討我們有在進行你要怎麼做呢我第一個講能源來源的部分對外能源來源的部分我們會分散"},{"start":12926.046,"end":12933.592,"text":"這個是安全上的一個部分你還是用火力發電你還是火力全開嘛你還是燃煤燃氣嘛為什麼再生能源要不斷的發展起來再生能源發展多久了還要提再生能源業員之委員剛剛講的那個風電再生能源它是一個永久性的事業它可以再生啊"},{"start":12947.602,"end":12948.042,"text":"我們現在很穩健"},{"start":12968.243,"end":12990.411,"text":"來啦最後一個問題如果很穩健的話就不會虧損六千億了啦來部長最後一個問題如果說真的穩健的話就不會虧損六千億過去沒有虧損那麼多啦部長你要成口舌之快可以你慢慢去成啦但是部長最後一個問題我覺得議員市委員剛剛也點到一個重點是本席最近也看到也關注的"},{"start":12990.891,"end":13011.481,"text":"就是有很多民眾也開始有疑慮就是說現在如果說新的這個相關的住宅他是需要有這個太陽能光電板在屋頂的話那會牽扯到兩個部分一個是架設的這個成本其實某種程度上也是轉嫁到每個住戶這邊要去平均分攤所以可能會造成房價的一個上漲"},{"start":13012.418,"end":13034.992,"text":"那第二個部分是你架設了光電板之後想請教到底我們的規劃因為現在有一般民間的光電板它是賣電回來給台電台電再去做一個輸出那如果說未來是各家戶上面屋頂有光電板的話是到底是要賣回給台電還是直接供這一個住戶來就使用我們目前的方向是什麼"},{"start":13035.652,"end":13058.02,"text":"都可以所以說是住戶自由選擇他們選擇區區權會自由選擇對區權會自由選擇那這樣子會不會造成這個整體的不管是施工成本或是後續推動的一個困難應該還好因為它是賣電因為賣電有賣電的好處那他們自用自用有自用的考量"},{"start":13059.636,"end":13079.14,"text":"我們都尊重我們提出來這個問題並不是無地放矢而是因為你們現在一個行政命令就要全部大家這樣配合但是大家馬上提到很多都是實際的狀況一個是北台灣相對來說陰雨天可能比較多但是相對來講的建築"},{"start":13082.101,"end":13108.346,"text":"數量北台灣會是比較高的所以如果說一體適用的話北台灣有沒有辦法跟南台灣都有這樣子的一個規模的能源發電效率這打一個問號第二個如果說是要賣電給台電的話那這樣子那個管路的牽線以及如果說是要用住家自己使用的話那就要每一個住家都要有儲能裝置這又是另外一個不同的一個方向第三"},{"start":13109.625,"end":13127.928,"text":"因為他連結到病網裡面你先聽我講如果你剛講了嘛 業源支援也說了如果說你們認為是說裝光電板的話是增加韌性那增加韌性你就要有儲能裝置如果說這個儲能裝置沒有的話你會變成是你的增加韌性只有增加在白天晚上你沒有辦法"},{"start":13128.789,"end":13156.351,"text":"而且另外一點是這個光電板它本來就是白天的時候可能住戶都不在家裡用電量比較少你白天在吸收能源的時候你就是存來讓住戶晚上回到家裡的時候能夠來做使用這個是實際的層面我相信你我下了班之後會回家所以你想一下你的生活方式是什麼你就知道是說現在推動這個政策未來會面臨到什麼樣的狀況以及第三最重要的是"},{"start":13157.331,"end":13179.359,"text":"這一個光電板現在即便是交貨了那是完好的但用了10年呢用了15年呢破損了 壞掉了 故障了 維修了 後續誰來負責區權會啊 住戶自己啊那這些都是成本增加 結果我們現在用一個"},{"start":13180.552,"end":13195.766,"text":"行政命令就要求大家都要遵守 但是你沒有讓住戶有選擇與否的權利而你可以得到的效果利益是什麼 不知道還有最重要的是不是一直講說台灣不缺電嗎"},{"start":13197.723,"end":13213.724,"text":"你怎麼連這種電,剛剛我們召委站起來我就尊重召委,但是召委講到連300坪的面積的這個光電板的電,你們都要跳那代表什麼?代表台灣現在是很輕電的沒有啦,這身家任性啦"},{"start":13215.686,"end":13241.018,"text":"任何需要 任何的店員任何的來賓 任性就是一個替代概念啊任性的意義就代表是說我現在就是沒有那麼足夠所以我才要各自大家自己自立自強啊講不客氣的這就套一句我都不想再講這就套一句前總統蔡英文就講你們自己要自立自強啊"},{"start":13241.789,"end":13260.996,"text":"台電可能沒有辦法給你那足夠的電所以我現在政府就用一紙行政命令要你各住戶各建築自立自強自己準備光電板來準備發電這就是國人現在的感覺我再次強調因為這是內政部跟經濟部共同提出來的政策"},{"start":13262.096,"end":13284.65,"text":"本席也會在內政委員會跟內政部就教這個議題但是我真的很持平的很誠心的請部長再思考一下我剛剛講這幾點如果沒有辦法解決或確實會造成更多的民怨的情況要不要貿然的一味的不顧意見的持續推動部長思考一下好不好謝謝"},{"start":13287.708,"end":13310.298,"text":"好 謝謝侯孟愷委員 謝謝 謝謝部長接下來呢 歡迎我們請這個蔡義渝委員質詢謝謝召委那我們是不是有請部長以及我們產業園區管理局楊局長請部長跟楊局長"},{"start":13316.753,"end":13317.076,"text":"蔡榮豪部長好"},{"start":13318.834,"end":13344.753,"text":"部長我想跟部長聊一下因為我們賴總統在上個月有宣示未來會由經濟部來推動一個叫做中小微企業的升級轉型甚至會透過法案中小微企業發展條例那可能也會編了一個叫做八年計畫這個八年計畫看起來有達到1000億的一個規模那當然就是希望可以讓台灣過去台灣整個經濟發展的一個命脈"},{"start":13348.095,"end":13351.318,"text":"就是經濟部所挾產業園區或者是以前工業產業園區或者是科學園區這樣的一個園區那你們現在你們的整體的大戰略你們要怎麼促進這一些產業園區可以達到賴清德總統所說的可以讓他們升級那部長你們的規劃方向是怎樣呢"},{"start":13377.144,"end":13401.014,"text":"就是過去來講我們希望還是有一個區域的生態系整個產業的生態系可以完整起來那現在我們大家知道高科技產業因為受到國際間的這個需求的影響它發展得非常好但我們希望它的這個效果可以外溢到很多的中小微企業甚至它的供應商甚至於是傳統產業但是透過整個區域的發展把它連結起來共同來發展起來"},{"start":13406.397,"end":13426.417,"text":"所以連結這件事,這個連結有兩個是,有兩個方向一個就是說,這一些科技業類,他可能未來他所需要的原物料我們盡量是希望是在地,台灣生產,台灣製造台灣製造的這一些,就是未來科技業他所需要的他的整體的設備的來源,這是第一類嘛"},{"start":13428.859,"end":13454.786,"text":"對 電力的連結我認為交通的連結也很重要那既然在交通的連結上我以嘉義為例嘛事實上嘉義我們有幾個產業園區現在在開發中有的是我們縣政府開發的就像我們嘉義現在正在開發的馬籌後產業園區跟現在南科管理局所開發的科學園區未來在這裡交通會打結"},{"start":13456.384,"end":13485.116,"text":"因為現在產業一直在進駐中那我們也知道說以現在那裡的整個的一個交通流量都大概是靠所謂東西向快速道路就是台82線這單一條的來做整個交通的一個疏散那你要想喔這個等未來台積電正式員工進駐後這裡的交通打結的一個狀況那我們這樣的一個產業園區的一個升級的一個計畫包括這個交通的解決方案都會在裡面嗎"},{"start":13486.781,"end":13496.431,"text":"對 我們也會考量除了跟有些是地方政府那有些是交通部我們來跟他們做一些協商總是就是說讓這個延續的開發還有它產業的進駐可以順利去完成那本來我們這個六大核心的關鍵的發展"},{"start":13504.6,"end":13524.237,"text":"交通的議案本來就會在裡面做一個很重要的項目所以像這次大南方矽谷計畫就有議案是說這個台37線的一個高鐵橋下道路的一個延伸嘛就是希望說未來可以把加科跟南科跟高雄的科學園區"},{"start":13525.038,"end":13529.44,"text":"透過S狼帶的串聯把這樣的一個由半導體的就是台積電所帶龍頭的這些產業把它可以串聯在一起那這個大概是大南方的一個矽谷計畫那以我現在看到的事實上我們嘉義除了科學園區就是台積電COWAS的一個基地那未來在馬籌後"},{"start":13549.107,"end":13570.515,"text":"我們也有經濟部、產業園區署也有在規劃一個45公頃的半導體的供應鏈那你們有沒有想過呢如果這樣半導體的供應鏈跟科學園區如果你們可以透過一個高架路段那直接進入到園區裡面那從馬籌號直接有一條高架路段它除了"},{"start":13571.255,"end":13595.645,"text":"中間經過台82線之外就可以讓他直接拉到科學園區對於這樣一些產業園區的一個交通的一個串聯而且他的這樣的一個交通的流量又不用跟當地的居民去去有打結這樣的一個串聯是有意義的那交通部也正在規劃那我認為站在我們產業園區整體的一個提升"},{"start":13596.385,"end":13607.73,"text":"高通竟然這麼重要 我也希望未來應該在稻埠上大家的路 這個交通部正在規劃的這樣的路線可以直接進入到園區 用高架的方式 這樣有辦法嗎"},{"start":13609.687,"end":13625.416,"text":"這個我們當然方向上是支持啊但是這個是交通部我們還是會跟交通部來做跨部會的一些協商跟協調也讓他可以進行完成那的確是該委員講的就是台積電跨時後因為他是屬於後端的製程嗎那後端製程依賴我們國內的供應鏈"},{"start":13628.658,"end":13644.051,"text":"它是非常非常重要的快速當然先進的部分它可能有國際的、國外的但是後端的COWAS的部分跟我們國內的供應商是非常的嚴謹所以這個部分是非常重要的那我當然希望就是說"},{"start":13644.771,"end":13649.533,"text":"除了供應鏈後端你剛講的後端供應鏈的串聯交通的串聯這也很要緊所以保證這要趕快通過開啟店開啟我們要先整個在前面所以事情很重要第二就是我一直在關心的就是水上南進的產業園區它的開發進度它因為有在"},{"start":13667.88,"end":13685.648,"text":"開發的過程當然是有發現一些文資那所以開發進度當然就是對於文資的一個保護是一個優先的考量但是它還是要有進度要往前推進嘛那我想要了解一下那目前整個南進產業園區的開發進度究竟是如何呢我請局長說明一下來 請局長 謝謝"},{"start":13687.368,"end":13704.584,"text":"謝謝委員關心那這個的確有文資的議題那縣政府也很協助也很幫忙所以整個文資的議題大概在5月底的時候我們依照雙方同意的計畫書都清查完畢了那現在就是等7月的時候我們把它整理好就送進去給嘉義縣文化"},{"start":13705.405,"end":13717.905,"text":"文字局繼續做審議那來做相關後續的進度那護縣長陳吉也非常關心整個園區的這個進展那我們會再跟縣府一起合作趕快來督促相關進度的推進"},{"start":13718.976,"end":13743.744,"text":"所以你們是說七月啦 七月底七月一送文資局就會送文資局那就是相關的整個開發就會往前推進了嘛是不然這個因為發現文資是一件狀況但是要做好文資的保護之外園區的一些整體的後續推動我覺得徐海市局長這邊也是得大力推動一下這樣是嗎是 會來關切 是"},{"start":13744.404,"end":13766.81,"text":"好那我最後一個來問這個公有零售市場的轉型議題啦那我們知道說現在當然是因為像萬嘎伊當然是老齡化而且少子化的一個狀況是有的那所以現在很多傳統的一個公有市場事實上它是凋零的那我們也希望說這個傳統公有市場它可以轉型"},{"start":13767.31,"end":13775.073,"text":"那這個轉型也未必是說,一定把它打掉重建,這未必是這樣它可能在它的既有空間裡面,還是可以讓它發揮它的傳統市場有它傳統市場的美好的地方有這些人就說,我比較愛去這種比較有傳統味的地方去消費去買東西它還是有它好的地方"},{"start":13791.36,"end":13813.778,"text":"那站在我們的經濟部這邊我們要怎樣來推動讓這個傳統公有市場它可以重新活絡起來讓它就是如同講的真的可以轉型是 有關嘉義的部分我請那個署長來說明來請署長好 那跟委員說明齁那個其實在傳統市場我們協助上面大概有幾個面向啦齁"},{"start":13814.398,"end":13841.493,"text":"那首先如果是环境面的部分我们一直有一些整个摊铺位或者是环境改善的一些协助那另外一个是在行销推广面像我们大概每年都会提供给这个市场办那个好市加倍券那主要就是吸引人潮进来那像这个公有市场如果需要协助辅导的话因为虽然是属于地方自治事项但是经济部这边一直有跟地方一直在协助这个市场的一个发展"},{"start":13842.82,"end":13865.718,"text":"包委員我要補充一下因為現在賴總統有在520有講說對中小微企業的這個協助會額外增加一千億那平均來講一年會增加一百多億那我們會把包括這個地方上的這些公有零售市場也好或者是商圈也好會納入我們的補助範圍"},{"start":13866.599,"end":13883.62,"text":"那我們金額可以增加多一點來協助市長你有講到補助啦所以我就想具體跟你講嘛市長像我們嘉義你像我們鐵橋啦 太保啦 綠草啦大拿跟珀珠他們這裡的傳統市場使用率都很低啦"},{"start":13884.662,"end":13900.243,"text":"你如果說中間的第一零售市場使用率28很低那我現在以鋪子為例好了鋪子的 鋪住的第一市場使用率低 它有兩個面向的問題那這兩個第一個就是說 他們的白水"},{"start":13901.244,"end":13926.798,"text":"你也知道現在的年輕人他要消費的時候他不喜歡去那裡淋漓漓淋漓就會覺得乾淨度嘛就是環境整備這個部分環境整備但是他的排水過去的蓋子都做得很穩所以他如果稍微清一下整個就淋漓漓漓了所以這一種市場的一個優化第一個他的排水功能一定要想辦法把它提升"},{"start":13927.978,"end":13946.565,"text":"就是他要清潔的時候,這個水就可以擺水嘛,那些比較屬於汙水的部分,這是第一類第二個,傳統市場勒,事實上他的競爭力的不足,來自於說,他們的店現在很少所以他們沒辦法用一個煮煮花,煮煮花裡面去吸水,讓這個傳統市場有靈氣"},{"start":13951.451,"end":13958.775,"text":"沒有冷氣 等於說現在年輕人要去那裡消費 天天要去吃東西 全身苦汗他的消費的動力就減少 啊他會變成一個惡性循環因為他去裡面消費的環境沒辦法 他的舒適度沒辦法提升啊舒適度沒提升的狀況之下 生意就漸漸賣掉啊生意賣掉了 這個市場喔 他要招商 就都人多就賣 啊他就越來越弱化"},{"start":13976.423,"end":13995.473,"text":"你要期待他們有辦法以後再來靠近然後讓這些市場裡面至少有一個舒適有冷氣的空間沒辦法達到所以我們既然有想要來救這些傳統市場我認為這兩項我們如果站在用補助的角度這兩件事情是可以值得來思考這樣才把這個傳統市場有救起來的機會"},{"start":14000.135,"end":14021.067,"text":"來 我想要聽話保定 剛有可能這樣來我剛剛提到的就是說我們將來的預算可以有增加啦那當然這個是要立法院同意啦那我想我們這個部分會跟地方政府來共同合作因為有一些像這個地方性的傳統市場主要主責單位是地方政府但是我們會透過跟他共同合作補助的方式"},{"start":14022.287,"end":14038.479,"text":"剛剛委員關心的 比如說環境整備的部分剛剛提到的污水還有這個環境 冷氣舒適等等的一些情況看怎麼樣把這個做好對啦 一個環境嘛 一個的舒適度嘛那都是傳統市場過去 他們比較達不到的我們如果先讓他們這個環境也好 舒適度也好主人 大家覺得去消費的空間就不錯而且那都有傳統味 傳統味一定有他們的優勢"},{"start":14050.868,"end":14074.006,"text":"我們第一個補助一定先從他的這個公共領域然後公共事務那那個優先補助那個沒有問題是啊是啊我現在講的都是公共空間喔我不是說他的店家自己的方法對你店家如果自己可以加裝冷氣或怎麼樣我們有其他的方案當然啦但是店家自己的我現在指的是公共空間對公共空間就是說你一個好的一個市場"},{"start":14075.808,"end":14102.945,"text":"對不對 他要升級對不對 他可能說好他裡面有空調 這個很重要但是他現在就已經弱化 你要怎麼叫人家的店家我們才來求錢 我們來支撐空調看起來需要政府用幾年的時間讓他用一些預算 然後用幾天的時間讓他供起來看看看能不能招商順利 招商已經有這個點子開始大家就求錢了 自然後來就不需要政府的補助了"},{"start":14103.365,"end":14118.378,"text":"是 好不好去思考看看 好不好謝謝好 謝謝蔡議員然後也謝謝部長謝謝好 我今天稍微看一下這個會議的我很久沒做會議重點結論"},{"start":14120.543,"end":14136.691,"text":"第一個我想這個再生能源的比例去年13%嘛那剛剛這個部長有說大概預估今年是15%再來那個明年上半年的這個生物發電的應該可以順利發電嘛對不對明年上半年大概幾月"},{"start":14141.4,"end":14157.607,"text":"上半年嘛 上半年好 再來的話我們屋頂型的這些300坪的屋頂型的光電面板的設置可能請經濟部跟內政部有完整的配套措施不宜貿然經濟我是建議政府機關可以全部的來做這樣的實施"},{"start":14158.487,"end":14184.393,"text":"那另外的話因為我們常在講資本黨政府常在講飛鴻的供應鏈的確很重要所以在不管你的無人機、光電面板請遵照行政院公共工程委員會的採購條例所要求的去落實這個查核那到底是誰查核也在你們推動政策的時候一併要說明清楚我想這個跟你們今年的預算甚至明年的預算我想這個都有很直接的一個關係好"},{"start":14187.677,"end":14203.489,"text":"那麼登記發言的委員除不在場外 其餘經語發言完畢 詢答結束委員邱義營 傅坤祺 張家俊所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面執行和未及答覆部分 請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":14205.05,"end":14231.926,"text":"委员令要求期限者从期锁定各位委员针对预算案如有相关提案请于6月25号星期四6月25号星期四下午5点前送经济委员会办公室已立后续会诊预时不再收案讨论事项锁定议案询答结束令定期继续进行审查谢谢大家现在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}