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初席委員9人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開始開會進行報告事項 我們就來宣讀上次的議事錄立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國115年6月10日星期三上午9時至12時7分6月11日星期四上午9時1分至12時18分"},{"start":1619.674,"end":1648.783,"text":"下午1時30分至1時33分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員陳昭次委員等13人列席委員賴世保委員等8人列席官員6月10日行政院人事行政總處政務副人事長張秋元等人6月11日司法院秘書長高金之等人主席翁昭吉委員小林6月10日報告事項依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項並案審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案等二案"},{"start":1649.423,"end":1672.631,"text":"本日會議由委員陳昭芝委員等11人提出質詢委員蔡啟昌等三人提出書面質詢決議報告及詢答完畢令定期繼續審查委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會6月11日討論事項一繼續兵案審查行政院司法院韓經審議中華民國刑法第80條條文修正草案等37案"},{"start":1674.552,"end":1691.764,"text":"2.繼續並案審查行政院司法院 韓經審議 中華民國刑法 實行法第八條之二條文修正草案等二十案3.繼續並案審查委員翁曉琳等二十人擬具刑事訴訟法第108條條文修正草案等二案4.繼續並案審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等四案5."},{"start":1693.165,"end":1719.277,"text":"繼續併案審查台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等五案決議一中華民國刑法第八十條條文修正草案等三十七案進行逐條審查第八十條照行政院司法院提案通過增訂第八十條之一不予增訂第八十三條不予修正維持現行條文通過附帶決議二項二中華民國刑法實行法第八條之二條文修正草案等二十案進行逐條審查第八條之一不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":1719.677,"end":1740.003,"text":"第八條之二 照行政院司法院提案通過 增訂第八條之三不予增訂以上二案均審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決 不須交由黨團協商院會討論時 由汪召集委員小林出席說明條四引述條文部分 文字及法制用字用語 授權主席及議事人員整理三 第三案至第五案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1743.575,"end":1765.29,"text":"請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話我們議事錄就確定接著來介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員不好意思啦 都要上來的時候因為媒體記者那邊有人在受訪所以人比較多一點 遲到了一分鐘接著介紹我們到場委員跟應邀列席的官員先介紹在場的委員我們王紅薇 王委員"},{"start":1767.13,"end":1782.75,"text":"翁曉琳翁委員林倩琪林委員還有我們陳昭之陳委員這四個都認真跟負責的現在要坐在這裡那列席的官員人數"},{"start":1784.412,"end":1785.853,"text":"沒有介紹,我直接介紹,法務部常務次長、逢城次長、檢察司副司長、檢美會副司長、司法院司法行政廳廳長吳祚成吳廳長內政部警政署行政組副組長邱賢良"},{"start":1809.378,"end":1828.045,"text":"其餘沒有介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單我們就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次會議我們是兩天一次會議程是討論事項排定兩案分別是病案審查委員賴世保等27年凝聚的律師法增訂第35條之一第35條之二第35條之三條文草案共計10案"},{"start":1834.907,"end":1860.468,"text":"二 併案審查行政院函請審議律師法部份條文修正草案共八案本次的會議我們就僅進行詢答那進行委員的提案說明每一位發言人的時間三分鐘我們就按道場的次序來請提案人來做提案說明那第一位王洪威委員來"},{"start":1870.37,"end":1896.329,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員那因為我今天提案的這個條文比較多那我想有關於增訂35條之一的部分因為提案的委員比較多主要是避免律師遭受到暴力行為那我在這邊要特別強調就是我提案修正這個第7條跟第74條那主要是大家都知道現在大家對詐騙都深惡痛絕"},{"start":1898.931,"end":1911.214,"text":"可是這幾年來大家可以看到我們很多的案件都出現了知法犯法的律師在擔任這些詐團的軍師甚至勾串而且甚至幫這些詐團來勾結檢察官或者是法官根本應該是罪上加罪"},{"start":1921.016,"end":1931.739,"text":"可是到目前為止其實大部分律師涉詐也只是用泄密或者是一些組織犯罪的還是可以繼續執業所以這些律師根本不怕所以他們會繼續的去協助這些詐騙集團然後勾結還有充當軍師侵害百姓的財產而且造成很多受騙民眾受害民眾的家破人亡"},{"start":1949.864,"end":1968.519,"text":"我舉一個例子 其中有一位律師黃庚宏 他當時也是涉及這個詐騙集團的詐案當時被提出來身為律師竟然還來幫詐騙集團 他竟然說他大學的時候律師倫理就被當掉 但是他一樣可以做律師"},{"start":1969.42,"end":1971.303,"text":"這種態度極為囂張,而且是根本覺得有這個範囲也完全沒有受到任何的可以去懲罰他"},{"start":1985.143,"end":2004.501,"text":"而且像這種案件我剛才說了他變成用泄密案件而且他通常都很輕所以他可能是只是還起訴或者一顆罰金所以在這邊呢我所提出來的修正對於這些知法犯法的律師不但呢就說我們應該要杜絕"},{"start":2006.483,"end":2016.553,"text":"而且應該甚至要暫停他的律師的資格格而且呢最重的話也應該做成除名的處分否則對他來講就是他當軍師然後呢他獲利最後就是輕輕的放過"},{"start":2023.439,"end":2030.21,"text":"所以在這一次因為目前我看到只有我提出這個相關的律師法的第七條跟第七四條的修正我希望能夠得到我們司法法治委員會的支持因為我們要打詐的話"},{"start":2039.163,"end":2061.695,"text":"當然更要杜絕這些知法犯法的律師能夠幫詐騙集團能夠讓當他們的這些不管是幫他們出謀劃策或當軍師然後有這麼多這麼多的律師通通都涉及犯法那我們必須去修法來重罰來做杜絕以上來跟大家報告"},{"start":2062.888,"end":2069.032,"text":"好 謝謝王宏輝 王委員來 接下來請翁小玲 翁委員"},{"start":2077.432,"end":2103.378,"text":"謝謝莊召偉在座的各位委員還有我們次長還有我們列席的官員們大家好我們知道近年來社會上其實發生了很多令人震驚的事件有的律師只是因為在承辦棘手的民事案件或者是刑事案件的時候就在法院可能會被被告毆打甚至暫停後在法院門口還會被尾隨攻擊有的律師事務所甚至還被"},{"start":2104.678,"end":2112.265,"text":"這個噴漆恐嚇正式接到威脅的電話要求他停止辯護那麼這些律師們基本上不僅僅是面對案件本身的壓力還要被迫的擔憂自己和家人的人身安全"},{"start":2119.292,"end":2138.842,"text":"我想這些社會案件都告訴我們一件事律師雖然被稱為在野法巢與法官檢察官共同維護社會正義與人權但是當他們站在衝突最前線的時候我們目前的法律卻沒有給予這些在野法巢律師們足夠的保障這不僅僅是對律師個人的傷害更是對憲法保障人民訴訟權的公然藐視"},{"start":2145.885,"end":2162.537,"text":"那為了扭轉這個現況我們參考了聯合國關於律師角色的基本原則以及歐盟近年來的保護律師職業公約這些國際規範基本上都明確指出各國的政府都有責任去確保律師不被恐嚇、妨礙或干涉他的律師職責"},{"start":2171.072,"end":2176.667,"text":"那同時我們也參照了這個國內現行的法律保護機制譬如說像是醫療法"},{"start":2177.745,"end":2185.592,"text":"有保障醫事人員社會工作司法保障社工以及刑法當中關於妨害公務等等這些規定那既然這些專業人員在執行職務的時候都能夠獲得法律明確的人身安全的保障那麼我們為何不能給予同樣是在維護法制承擔重大壓力的律師們一份安全的保障那因此這次本席就提案增訂了律師法第35條之一"},{"start":2206.571,"end":2208.699,"text":"其中的內容是包含了兩大核心"},{"start":2209.943,"end":2238.715,"text":"第一个就是明定处罚机制我们对于以强暴、胁迫、恐吓等等非法方法妨害律师执行职务者是处三年以下的有期徒刑并且可以并科罚金第二我们就是加重后果责任如果因为暴力行为而不幸造成律师重伤或死亡那么就会大幅增加刑责最高可处无期徒刑以彰显我们刑法遏制暴力的决心"},{"start":2240.086,"end":2247.033,"text":"那麼我們修法的初衷非常的單純就是希望能夠築起一道律師的人身安全網遏止這種藐視法治的行徑我們希望能夠讓每一位律師都能夠安心的為當事人行使訴訟權利讓我們司法環境更公平更安全所以以上的說明也懇請所有的委員能夠支持本案謝謝"},{"start":2266.544,"end":2271.569,"text":"謝謝翁小玲翁委員 接下來請林倩琦委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2280.031,"end":2298.043,"text":"好謝謝主席莊昭偉福音同仁大家早安那麼此次本席提出律師法增訂第35條之一的條文草案那整個目的是在強化律師依法來執行職務的時候的安全保障那麼維護人民訴訟權利及司法"},{"start":2298.863,"end":2323.894,"text":"制度的正常運作那麼也有鑒於近期律師在法院執行職務時呢遭到當事人暴力攻擊的事件那麼也引發了全國的這個關注那麼律師其實不是只有個別當事人的代理人也是訴訟制度當中呢來協助人民行使權利參與司法程序之代理人"},{"start":2324.554,"end":2349.946,"text":"更是訴訟制度當中很重要的專業人員那麼律師在執業過程當中如果遭受暴力、脅迫或恐嚇那會侵害到律師個人的人身安全那也會產生一些寒蟬效應影響人民來尋求法律救濟的權利現行的憲法雖然已經有傷害、恐嚇、強制罪等規定但是還沒有辦法充分凸顯"},{"start":2350.726,"end":2377.137,"text":"律師依法執行職務時所應受到的特別保護那麼參酌這個醫療法還有社會工作施法及刑法妨礙公務罪的立法精神呢那本席在這邊對於特定專業人員執行職務時的安全認為應該來建立更明確更具有嚇阻力的制度因此在本案我們來明定對於律師法依法執行職務時以強迫"},{"start":2379.618,"end":2405.209,"text":"脅迫恐嚇或其他非法的方式足以妨害律師來執行職務者那應該要負刑事責任那麼若因此而導致律師死亡或重傷者並要加重期刑那麼本案主要是在維護司法正常運作來保障人民安心透過律師行使訴訟權那麼以上的說明敬請各位委員支持本案謝謝"},{"start":2410.203,"end":2412.565,"text":"好 謝謝林建啟 林委員好 那我們接續我們就來進行機關代表的報告每一位發言時間三分鐘我們現在請法務部馮城次長"},{"start":2443.066,"end":2461.724,"text":"感謝主席及各位委員 病案審查本部主管的法規那本次病案審查的部分共有兩大部分分別是第一個部分是律師法的第35條之一的修正草案那第二個部分是律師法部分條文的修正草案等相關議題來向各位委員報告"},{"start":2462.881,"end":2480.75,"text":"那有關於律師法第35條之一的修正草案那本部感謝各位委員對於這個部分的重視那對於律師遭受暴力攻擊本部也是高度重視對於現行的法律雖然已經有傷害罪恐嚇罪跟強制罪等規範"},{"start":2481.75,"end":2506.999,"text":"然而律師以依法執行職務是協同落實憲法的訴訟權跟正當法律的程序 完備司法的程序實現個案正義所以本部就參酌了這個醫療法的規定拟據了律師法第35條之一的修正草案那目前跟委員報告進度是正在辦理預告的程序中"},{"start":2507.819,"end":2523.277,"text":"那對於各位委員提案的一個修法目的本部都競表贊同僅就各個提案的版本的細節我們進一步來做一些說明那首先對於提案的部分沒有限於律師受當事人的委任"},{"start":2523.897,"end":2540.898,"text":"而於司法人員執行職務時對律師違不法的一個侵害恐於越確保這個司法權的行使,以期律師協同落實憲法上訴訟權與正當法律目的,那是不是妥適,我們這部分可能要見請再酌"},{"start":2543.721,"end":2565.123,"text":"那提案對於律師侵害保障擴及到法庭還有偵查以外是否有確保司法權行使的公義性有關那這個部分也要見請在座那另外在提案的傷害律師的身體健康罪及加重結果犯交刑法的傷害罪還有殺人罪這個部分為重"},{"start":2565.803,"end":2591.63,"text":"那另外加重結果的這個刑度跟刑法的故意殺人罪的相同是否符合罪行的相當原則這個部分也踐請在座另外提案參考了刑法的第135條妨害公務的立法例這個為律師跟公務員在依法執行職務的法義保護這個部分是不是相同在醫療法上也沒有這樣的一個規定的情況之下也容請在座"},{"start":2592.19,"end":2611.648,"text":"那再來就是有關於律師法部分條文的修正草案那針對於律師涉犯洗錢參與犯罪組織罪跟強制性交罪嫁致人於死重傷罪亦有損於律師的使命所以本部也拟據了律師法的部分條文修正草案來送大院審議"},{"start":2612.689,"end":2633.122,"text":"對於各位委員提案的修法的目的本部都競表贊同僅就各提案的細節部分做一下的補充那提案最新本行一年以上有期徒刑已經是草案第七條第一項第一款故意犯最重本行五年以上的涵蓋那應該沒有這個再重複的必要"},{"start":2633.542,"end":2652.735,"text":"那再來列舉這個洗錢跟組織犯罪的犯罪也多為草案第七條第一項第一款所涵蓋那還有由地方律師公會來除名也跟現在的法制也不太符合那考量律師所設的情節一律停職也可能會影響到律師的工作權那這個部分跟律師自律的精神也不合"},{"start":2653.055,"end":2669.22,"text":"那非常感謝大院審查上開的法案並於過程中給予很多寶貴意見那我們期待盡速的完成修法程序以維護社會公義 保障人民權益 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝馮城次長 接下來請司法院行政廳廳長吳作成 吳廳長"},{"start":2676.983,"end":2695.686,"text":"主席 各位委員還有各位先進今天奉邀到司法院的法治委員會就這個病案審查律師法修正條文代表本院進行報告說明本院的意見如下本次的修法主要有兩個部分第一個是有關律師法第35條之一等相關條文部分"},{"start":2696.887,"end":2708.999,"text":"本院對於整個修法方向竟表同意那緊究部分的細節做一個說明那有委員提到將這個構成要件列為滋擾或妨害那本院認為因為這是屬於一個處以刑罰的處罰條文那建議在構成要件的"},{"start":2714.966,"end":2726.525,"text":"的這個規範上應該要更具明確性及可預見性那建議可以增加相關行為太陽的一個具體的一個例式那另外有委員有提到就"},{"start":2727.492,"end":2746.34,"text":"就是如果有對律師有施暴行為導致有加重的重傷害或死亡結果產生時那有委員版本有提到要就這個加重結果犯的部分處以未遂的處罰那跟這個目前實務級通說認為加重結果犯並沒有未遂的處罰規定似乎有"},{"start":2747.08,"end":2764.691,"text":"不一致的地方那這邊可以建議再為斟酌那其餘部分都是一些文字的體力上的調整就如書面那第二部分是有關第74條的相關條文的修正那司法院主要的意見是認為就對於律師這個執行職務與停止執行職務的部分"},{"start":2768.593,"end":2784.665,"text":"那因為是在相關的刑事判決還沒有確定之前那就先譽為停止職務這樣的一個處置那關於他的停止職務的次數還有期間目前的版本是沒有做相當的一個限制那因為這邊對律師職業的權利的影響"},{"start":2788.527,"end":2804.373,"text":"這個不清所以還是建議是否能夠參考有關刑事羈押限制出境出海或等暫時暫行安置的相關規定那就命停止植物的次數及期間做適當的一個限制那另外就有關這個"},{"start":2805.774,"end":2830.99,"text":"要除名的部分因為我們知道對律師除名其實是對律師最嚴重的在行政上是最嚴重的一個處置建議是能夠依據現行的規定然後由律師懲戒委員會來進行審議跟決議這樣的程序會比較周延也比較符合程序的保障如果直接由地方律師公會就直接做除名恐怕會比較有疑慮"},{"start":2834.392,"end":2843.1,"text":"其他部分 我們本院都沒有意見 尊重櫃院及主管機關的著處以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝吳庭長其餘的列席機關 有無口頭的補充"},{"start":2853.632,"end":2875.562,"text":"那如果沒有的話 機關代表報告完畢 相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始來進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間八分鐘 那必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間五分鐘 並不再延長我們上午"},{"start":2876.883,"end":2888.029,"text":"10點30分來截止發言登記現在請登記第一位在準備最充分來非常自信滿滿的陳昭之委員來上台質詢謝謝主席有請次長請馮次長"},{"start":2902.53,"end":2905.691,"text":"次長2024年被起訴的具有指標意義的這個律師鄭宏威他參與這個詐騙集團的運作然後他千年的十多位的律師一起成為詐騙集團的一個軍師跟共犯"},{"start":2918.115,"end":2934.64,"text":"那這次律師法的修法大概也其中要去補足這個洞那我們都很支持但是從2024年5月發生了爆發這起律師集團性的一個參與詐騙集團的這個犯罪那一直到去年6月"},{"start":2936.24,"end":2956.208,"text":"行政院才把律師法送到立法院已經又過了一年那現在是2026年的6月所以我們也才要審查這部法所以一年一年過去了這個詐騙權一年一年越嚴重就是整個在台灣越氾濫那市長我今年3月的時候是跟部長做詢答的時候我提出了一個完整的這個事實跟數字的依據"},{"start":2957.468,"end":2981.147,"text":"等要求檢討目前刑法當中有一個叫做定執行刑的制度那這個遭詐騙集團去濫用的問題那些有問題的律師他不只是成為詐騙集團掌控小弟的工具跟好朋友更是一再配合詐騙集團利用法律制度上對他們有利的部分然後申請定執行刑讓車手小弟的刑期一再的變少"},{"start":2984.329,"end":3002.507,"text":"那當時部長是有回答我就在你們看這個投影片上有看到法務部針對定執行部分要研議這個修法而且要更合理的集據那我現在就請教次長這個研議到什麼進度那什麼時候會可能把法案送到立法院來什麼時候可以排審呢"},{"start":3004.137,"end":3023.02,"text":"公務員報告就是說有關於您上次問本部部長的這個部分我們有拟據的這個刑法第51條跟這個相關的一個草案那這個部分我們會盡速處理麻煩您聲音再大一點我說我們有拟據草案了但是我們會盡速處理相關的程序已經有草案了對我們有拟據草案嘛 對"},{"start":3024.608,"end":3042.092,"text":"那我可以請問一下這個大概的進度嗎你去草案不過因為內部上對於這樣的一個急劇就是說到底要怎麼樣更合理更完善這部分就是說內部還有在討論那所以委員的部分其實部長回來也相當重視所以我們回去會更加的慎重來處理這件事情"},{"start":3042.972,"end":3066.643,"text":"好 謝謝 就是要有進度不要把我們這個災害的事情當作耳邊風 謝謝然後律師洩密參與詐騙集團要被起訴 要被羈押 要被關那請問檢察官呢懲戒法法院他判決確定 您看到這個投影片上竟說這位女檢吳雅芝她是私慮不周 罰縫十個月 不痛不癢"},{"start":3069.145,"end":3089.396,"text":"他這個洩密這個大團律師男友這樣子要罰十個月而且理由是思慮不周思考不周我想請問次長為什麼會出現這麼離譜的狀況跟委員報告本部的當時對這件事情其實是蠻深重在看待的那我們這一部分我們法務部的是建議要免職"},{"start":3090.785,"end":3103.494,"text":"是要建議要我們法務部是建議要免職免職是最嚴重的處理方式那換句話說您對於目前這樣的判決是不接受的嘛事實上我們也有上訴但是我們還是尊重我們的懲戒法院那不是白講嗎你們建議要免職然後他已經這樣的判決法務部毫無辦法嗎我們有上訴了但是我們這個在任何的這個案件之中"},{"start":3117.089,"end":3144.952,"text":"檢察官跟我們的這個法院 司法院這邊我們本來就有職權上的不同我們當然要尊重啦 但我們的態度有出來嘛對不對 委員我們態度有認為是應該要免職 而且我們也上訴了當然態度是一件事啦 實質上對民眾的感覺 但次長請你繼續看這個檢察官七次洩密 結果只罰奉十個月民間司法會批評這個是懲戒法院跟桃園地檢署互踢皮球的結果你認為民間司法會這個批評公正嗎 他這個說法公正嗎"},{"start":3145.646,"end":3171.173,"text":"我想這個任何的批評指教我們都尊重啦但是我們本部的態度就是說我們如果有違法我們就會那您應該是某個程度可以接受因為您都建議這個法務部都建議免職了吧那但是司改會也說桃園地檢署應該重新面對吳雅芝的有犯罪嫌疑的事實重新進行犯罪的這個追訴請問次長桃園地檢署有重新偵辦嗎據你的了解"},{"start":3173.738,"end":3193.327,"text":"還是就這樣放下了 讓此案成為過去事我們有喊請桃園地檢署再去審出你們已經喊請對 但是桃園地檢署因為這是個案嘛我們沒有辦法針對個案去做一個這樣的一個好 我也讓大家說 民眾聽到這樣的事情你們做了 做了書面的 請他重來我們有請他重新去審一下線密器是罰錢十個月 罰錢十個月薪水這樣子 事情就是這樣發生"},{"start":3199.77,"end":3213.507,"text":"委員報告 其實法務部我們針對個案我們是沒有辦法介入的所以通案上的就是你們最常 報告部長最常用的不是 那是事實嘛就是說我們因為我們如果手伸進去的話那也很奇怪因為在個案上以後我們再來討論這個觀念問題啦"},{"start":3215.089,"end":3223.996,"text":"在醫學上所有的個案就是開始通案的開始沒有個案拿來的通案市長我現在今天要本席要替台北台北西門町中正萬華區基層李明發聲李明向我們陳情法務部已經決定要在西門町捷運站旁邊的京華商圈興建檢查署大樓"},{"start":3233.684,"end":3250.776,"text":"那公家機關又蓋大樓我覺得這不是不能討論但是法務部的態度根據我的理解是非常的藐視民意甚至有些黑箱我說黑箱的意思是說等一下我會再提到就希望未來你們要改正了因為法務部每次都把里長有出息當作里長有同意"},{"start":3251.996,"end":3259.12,"text":"李明同意這個做法我們都可以去檢視會議記錄部長為什麼李明會反對呢這裡原本是國軍歷史文物館和藝文中心2017年國防部在公聽會上承諾這塊土地未來要規劃成什麼結合藝文展演商業設施跟便民空間的國軍藝文特區結果事情完全不是這樣的發展"},{"start":3277.851,"end":3287.137,"text":"我的重點在於你們有沒有好好跟地方溝通啊就是進行改成單一的封閉的司法辦公廳社這樣子嚴重背離了政府當時對人民的一個承諾請你看這塊地我想也許你們很熟就是在中華路的林蔭大道旁邊那緊接著就是捷運西門站的出口這是國際觀光客必經的西門廳商圈"},{"start":3302.828,"end":3307.176,"text":"請次長用常識想一想如果未來高檢署沒檢在這裡蓋蓋在這裡每天有多少求車會頻繁出入那未來你只要遇到這個重大案件或成抗"},{"start":3315.93,"end":3335.001,"text":"當有陳情抗議 駒馬阻隔 維安管制 交通封鎖那你一定會遇到 外遇到這個西門徒步區跟中華路的林蔭大道啊這個對周邊的商圈啊 藝文觀觀 甚至交通造成多大的衝擊還有居民怎麼上加班 學生如何上下學那裡好多學校欸 有七八間這個托育中心欸 市長"},{"start":3337.822,"end":3355.259,"text":"您對這個有初步的看法嗎我知道這應該好多年了委員報告其實台北地研署也針對這件事情有發新聞稿我們都會很誠意的去溝通因為事實上來講等一下我會跟您談新聞稿的事情之前那個委員也都有關心到說我們檢察官工作的環境"},{"start":3357.942,"end":3374.659,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們現在這個我們的這個對檢察官工作環境的改善我們還是當然要非常重視那地檢署這邊希望能夠做誠意上的溝通化解掉委員剛剛所說的這些疑慮我們會盡力去做這個部分上"},{"start":3375.64,"end":3396.224,"text":"這樣他要說回覆我們就來看部長你知道台北地檢署是怎麼回覆台北市政府嗎竟然說本案不會影響其座落位置附近之人車通行以及居民日常生活本案將有效的帶動周邊的餐飲零售需求增進鄰近區域之土地價值這個說法讓居民難以信服讓我嘆為觀止"},{"start":3400.925,"end":3421.705,"text":"西門町還需要依賴檢察署大樓來活躍他的商區來提高他的地價嗎這個說法簡直是荒唐啊那其實黎明也提出了非常好的建議想法像士林他有台北的表演藝術中心南港有台北流行音樂中心人家都在藉由展演商業"},{"start":3422.446,"end":3426.789,"text":"來翻轉城市來促進再生為什麼中正萬華的西區卻被迫要塞進一個高度管制的治安管制在駒園區呢這個基地的中華路林蔭大道在日治時代的時候就被說是公共藝文的展演重要區域戰後發展為國軍藝文特區也是第一屆金馬獎的舉辦地未來有沒有機會作為西區的藝文特區呢次長"},{"start":3451.445,"end":3460.673,"text":"跟委員報告過 您剛剛的那個文件上 北京也有說得蠻清楚嘛很可笑的說法啊 既然是你們 你還要靠這個大樓這個是有經過這個專業技師還有主管機關的一個會商研討以後認定的一個說這不會影響嘛"},{"start":3468.16,"end":3490.087,"text":"那當然我們會在這個事情上再更充分的去做溝通我了解 你知道這個回覆文所以里長的怒火已經燒起來 超過60位里長反對還有300位居民聯名抗議事實上我可以告訴你 我想你也清楚 三黨的立委三黨 包括指導人也都非常關注所以我希望法務部第一個 要傾聽里民聲音充分公開資訊 好好釐清地方的疑慮"},{"start":3495.008,"end":3499.733,"text":"那在之前李明一再表達我也在這裡代替他們向李明表達我希望暫緩暫緩這個規劃這第一個因為太多問題要去釐清第二個法務部絕對不可以這樣有開會當作有同意這不相等的"},{"start":3511.664,"end":3514.566,"text":"絕對以後不能將會議說你出席就代表你同意你們的會議記錄第三個請重新評估這個基地條件公共需求還有這個替代方案這是所有的開發建設要做的部分就是有沒有更好的替代方案整體去盤點司法檢查機關他所需要的這個"},{"start":3531.736,"end":3547.125,"text":"廳舍跟用地好嗎就是我剛剛提到的這三點我麻煩次長回去整理一下那給我一個報告好嗎就剛剛我提的那個非常具體的因為裡面有很多的疑點是不是可能先暫緩第二個不要再把這個會議記錄這個是里長這個非常具名指控他們出席是說他們同意"},{"start":3551.847,"end":3572.55,"text":"然後第三個就是說你有沒有其他的替代方案其他的這個做法可以嗎 次長我可以有這份報告嗎就是你們就這件事情我們回去會就是再提出報告跟委員說明啦但是我補充一下我們法務部我們是法律單位我們不會說把那個有開會當成就是已經但是事實上我有看到那個資料啦"},{"start":3573.271,"end":3596.106,"text":"理長也就這麼講本部一向做事情都會依照法律來做所以才會也驚動到執政黨的立委第二個部分上就是說跟委員報告就是說請聽的當地的這個聲音我想不只是部理市長無論如何我想就今天這個案子市長給我一個具體的回覆好嗎我們會再跟委員做說明但我再更加了解謝謝市長謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":3600.729,"end":3604.154,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭之委員 接下來請我們翁曉琳 翁昭緯好 謝謝莊昭緯 那接下來我們請馮次長請馮次長"},{"start":3619.248,"end":3636.24,"text":"市長好 我想近期涉及到律師方面的新聞挺多的我們社會基本上一方面認為律師的人是安全需要保護但另外一方面我們也看到一些新聞尤其是現在發現怎麼連律師都會成為犯罪的共犯"},{"start":3639.842,"end":3666.799,"text":"那麼涉及介入涉及到像是詐欺案啊洗錢案啊等等這些事情啊層出不窮那剛剛其實陳昭之委員在先前之後已經也提到了譬如說有這個政大幫的律師好像涉及這個詐團成為詐團的軍師那麼也有像是律師他是涉及到這個泄密洗錢那網紅的仙塔律師也是涉及到洗錢泄密罪那麼以及這個我們有所謂台"},{"start":3667.679,"end":3689.392,"text":"板地面師律師之稱的這個蔡鴻森那麼他也收賄喔那麼事實上就是這些都涉及到律師他很明顯的這樣的一個違法行為那麼可是呢我們現在對於就是有關律師的懲戒制度還有法律依據的部分呢本期在這邊想跟想要請教部想要請教次長的那麼也就是說"},{"start":3690.885,"end":3711.868,"text":"我们知道其实在现在律师法第86条的规定就同一个事件在刑事侦查或审判中是不停止惩戒程序但是惩戒处分的若是以犯罪是否成立为段律师惩戒委员会认为有必要的时候可以在刑事判决确定前停止惩戒程序"},{"start":3712.969,"end":3727.283,"text":"那麼所以首先我想請教次長就是說以我們剛剛講的那個蔡鴻升律師的這個案子為例那目前他有被停止他的懲戒程序是停止進行中嗎還是說"},{"start":3729.929,"end":3747.683,"text":"跟委員報告 就是說蔡鴻升這個他的犯罪事實是勾結員警跟里長 偽造獨居老人的遺囑那詐領的這個遺產跟不動產1.4億元那這個部分上台北地院判處有期徒刑25年 案件上訴在高院審理中目前律師懲戒的結果是停止執行職務"},{"start":3749.09,"end":3769.107,"text":"好所以就是說就這個案子來講就是律師懲戒委員會他已經做成了這個決定那麼就是停止停止職務對不對對只是停止職務那對於他的律師身份呢律師身份目前還沒有說要測銷他的律師資格目前還沒有那以這個案子這麼嚴重來講的話他未來有可能會測銷他的律師資格嗎這個可能看最後的判決的狀況吧"},{"start":3776.263,"end":3784.642,"text":"所以就是說現在律師懲戒委員會基本上也可以做成嚴重的這個結果就是說是整個撤銷當時的律師職格是吧"},{"start":3785.349,"end":3811.123,"text":"應該最重是除名啦對 最重是除名但是以目前上面的狀況看起來程旭智走到暫時先停止職務因為除名這個部分剛剛我們司法院的代表也有提到這個是最重的一個處分可是譬如說以蔡鴻升這個例子來講他一審判決應該不是說他判了多少判了25年是嗎對 所以他這案子非常的嚴重對 但是因為畢竟他還不是確定判決"},{"start":3812.369,"end":3817.82,"text":"所以我們有時候如果就把他除名掉了這對他這個還是只是暫時先停止他職務那懲戒法院這邊應該是認為這樣的部分"},{"start":3819.639,"end":3838.228,"text":"已經就是暫時就是沒有辦法執行職務就先夠剩下的等到最後確定的狀況再看怎麼樣去做懲戒處分不過就是說是我想這個案子也是就是國人非常關注的一個案子尤其是這個律師他本身知法玩法又犯法然後但是如果說以這個情況來看的話就縱使現在一審的判決判他25年然後"},{"start":3843.23,"end":3871.151,"text":"律师惩戒委员会还只是让他停止职务那么我认为说这个部分其实是值得去检讨就是说类似像这种情形这么严重的话是不是一开始其实他的律师不仅是停止职务甚至连他的资格都要被撤销那么这个部分是本席的一个看法那当然了也有看到就是说实务上似乎现在也把这个86条里面的这个原则变成例外也就是说"},{"start":3871.992,"end":3893.235,"text":"现在会不会大部分的很多惩戒案件都可能因为说这个案子本身还在刑事诉讼的审理中所以就暂时停止惩戒程序不知道就是次长知不知道说现在目前整个律师惩戒委员会他们对于类似像这样的案子的做法"},{"start":3896.196,"end":3913.126,"text":"詳細數據我手邊是沒有啦但是剛剛那一件就是在還沒有確定之下他們就已經做了那個停職的一個這個執行職務的一個這樣的一個處分所以事實上我想說如果地方公會有一副懲戒然後這個就會有時間的限制那我想懲戒法院這邊"},{"start":3914.266,"end":3931.258,"text":"律師懲戒委員會這邊也會做這個妥適的處理因為今天我提這個問題當然是比較臨時那我也希望說次長是不是可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份就是說防護部對於這個相關停止懲戒程序的案件好嗎"},{"start":3932.359,"end":3955.388,"text":"近五年來就可以了這個是律師懲戒委員會的一個資料業務我們會幫忙協助你這邊去問問看如果說需要更長時間的話那就再請你們聯絡人再告訴我因為我想說能夠了解整體就是台灣現在的這個我們律師各地的律師公會對於類似這種交付懲戒的案子他們如果說是依照律師法的這個但書規定的"},{"start":3956.829,"end":3981.005,"text":"而停止懲戒程序的案有多少委員我們是不是不要限制兩個禮拜因為這不是我們本部的我們盡速去跟律師懲戒委員會去要資料所以接下來我也要針對不知道次長您知不知道現在各個地方的律師公會對於懲戒移送的標準以及處理的速度"},{"start":3981.425,"end":3989.881,"text":"是不是大家有共同辦理的指引還是說大家其實做法是不盡相同法務部對於這個部分有沒有了解"},{"start":3991.532,"end":4018.208,"text":"這個我們還是尊重律師的自治的一個部分這我們保證不會去針對地方公會這地方去下職是 那如果這樣的話其實可能有順便就是說也要將就是目前就是各個律師公會他們可能移送就是有受理受理這些懲戒的案件還有他們辦理的狀況可能就一併就讓本席知道然後一般來說他們應該都會有一個懲戒"},{"start":4019.529,"end":4038.587,"text":"就是審理懲戒注意事項法務部這裡都沒有督導這些各地的律師公會跟委員講說我們這邊我們會再去跟律師全員會這邊大家去再我們有一些聯繫的一個機會嘛那我們會再跟他們說明委員的這樣的一個希望說大家能夠標準一字話啦這個"},{"start":4039.568,"end":4061.659,"text":"或者是說至少讓我們知道就是說他們目前的標準是不是有一些明顯差異和說共同的這個審理的狀況是怎麼樣好然後還有一個問題就是說我們也知道其實在過去這些年裡面有些就是法官他們可能本身是為師後來就是卸任然後轉任律師那麼對於像這種轉任律師的這樣的一個轉任"},{"start":4064.58,"end":4087.84,"text":"律師的法官事實上他們在進行相關的訴訟案件的部分那未來有沒有可能會有一些重大的疑慮就是對於我們在法院司法實務上面可能已經有為事的法官他們轉任律師我們這個部分未來需不需要做更嚴格的一個審理"},{"start":4088.308,"end":4106.697,"text":"目前的這個目前律師法第五條是說如果受一年以上一年的有期徒刑以上的裁判確定那這個部分認為說罪名跟情節有影響到律師的信譽的部分那這個部分我們是不會發不得這個時候不得發給律師證書"},{"start":4108.578,"end":4115.659,"text":"是對不過就是這一條來講的話就是本席認為說可能之後也請法務部可以研議是不是我們要提高這個法官轉任律師的標準因為現在來講的話他大概就是已經要很重大的案件然後才不能夠去轉任律師但是我們基本上我們也希望因為律師畢竟是在野法槽所以對於他的專業還有他的人格各方面他的品性品德我們都希望能夠提高標準"},{"start":4135.744,"end":4141.468,"text":"還有就是說對於就是我們知道因為就像我們剛剛在前面說的在實務上其實律師涉及到重大詐欺虛擬資產以及不動產的犯罪案件當中那麼常常會有涉及到就是這樣資金移轉交易設計甚至賬戶管理的這些狀況也就是說"},{"start":4156.778,"end":4177.106,"text":"應該這麼說就是律師他在處理重大詐欺、虛擬資產及不動產的犯罪當中會涉及到有關於就是當事人的資金移轉、交易設計以及帳戶管理這些狀況那我們知道就是依照洗錢防治法的規定那事實上會計師跟律師目前都已經納入非金融事業"},{"start":4178.527,"end":4191.296,"text":"的人員他成為就是洗房法要規範的申報義務人所以如果一旦他們發現有疑似洗錢或是滋恐交易必須要向調查局申報所以這個部分的話這是等於是律師的義務那我想了解就是說法務部或是調查局這邊有沒有就是你們有沒有一個數據就是說近五年來律師他發現可疑交易申報的件數為何"},{"start":4206.667,"end":4230.729,"text":"他有主動申報的這個件數有多少法務部這裡有做一些統計嗎目前我們應該是我們也是一樣會後再一起提給委員這邊好嗎因為正確的數字我我可能要再更新一下好那麼因為這個議題也蠻重要的因為畢竟我們現在洗房法已經克與律師有這樣的一個義務責任但是實際上到底他們是不是會主動申報"},{"start":4231.83,"end":4257.325,"text":"這也涉及到我們未來就是相關的犯罪的偵查辦理都有關係所以本席希望就是法務部這裡可以提供給本席近五年來律師的可疑交易的針對可疑交易還有洗錢等等這些申報件數的統計數字還有就是說法務部實際上有沒有對一些律師事務所有去進行查核這部分有嗎"},{"start":4259.146,"end":4273.562,"text":"應該是有辦實際查核的這個部分我們回去會實際上就是你們去律師事務所實地查核的件數以及因為違反洗錢防治義務而遭裁罰或移送懲戒的案件數以上這幾個議題都麻煩法務部給本席一份"},{"start":4278.707,"end":4298.778,"text":"統計的資料本身想要了解到底實際上就是在律師遵循洗房法這個部分他們的做的情況如何以及法務部這個督導的情形那就麻煩次長一個月之內給我這份報告可以嗎我們會盡速一個月之內弄好我們就立刻聳博會等到一個月我們會盡速好的那就謝謝次長謝謝"},{"start":4302.743,"end":4308.188,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳 翁委員接下來請張雅琳 張委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席 我們先請保部次長請鳳次長"},{"start":4329.045,"end":4354.483,"text":"市長好 我想今天大家關注這個議題喔最主要是因為接二連三啦有發生一些律師被攻擊而且不幸傷重不治啦或者是死亡的一個案件喔所以我想今天做這個質詢呢其實並不我想這整個修法其實並不是只是保護律師個人其實我認為還有更深一層的是我們保護了當事人的權利以及司法程序不能夠被威脅所干擾啦這是我的想法那"},{"start":4355.933,"end":4382.441,"text":"我現在就會就幾個點來跟次長討論最主要是說法務部跟委員的差異其實是在保護範圍因為許多委員的版本都是希望保護範圍可以涵蓋到律師依法執行職務時受到威脅滋擾或傷害的一個防害的一個情形那有些版本也設計了警察及時排除較高刑度甚至未遂犯預備犯等的規定那"},{"start":4384.386,"end":4402.586,"text":"相較之下法務部的版本就比較限縮主要是針對律師與司法人員執行職務時遭到強暴、脅迫、恐嚇或其他非法方法妨礙業務的情形那我也可以理解我們大概也知道法務部的顧慮就是說如果今天我的範圍擴得非常寬的時候"},{"start":4404.748,"end":4426.515,"text":"因為可能會有一些定義不明的問題例如就是說像是律師的工作形態很多元有可能是在法院遞減有可能在選民服務處也有可能是在這個職場裡面去做這個諮詢或者是去做一些調解等等的如果全部都用同一個刑法條文納入可能也的確會有我們之前剛剛講這個範圍過"},{"start":4429.356,"end":4456.41,"text":"執法疑慮等等的一個問題不過因為我覺得還是要回到剛剛我前面講的啦實際上面就是受到傷害的而且這個案例也是接二連三啦那上次我在質詢法院安全問題的時候呢其實我也看到司法院在安全指引的時候有把高風險當事人通報民眾道院滋擾法院公共區域衝突升級兩照離庭分流等等的來納入一個安全程序"},{"start":4457.73,"end":4486.711,"text":"那這些都是在顯示實務上的確這些風險都有可能都可能是會發生的啦像這個我現在簡報投出來的這個例子這是他剛踏出法院也就是說現在這個案例其實是不確定我不確定到底有沒有規範在法務部的修法的範圍之內所以這個也是想要跟法務部來釐清的以這個是剛走出去他就被撞死"},{"start":4488.598,"end":4506.736,"text":"如果說現在以法務部的這個版本的話他是在偵查審判程序前後或在接見調節法律輔助等程序關於程序相關場務場域中因執行律師職務遭受到威脅但並非與司法人員執行職務時那是否適用呢"},{"start":4507.476,"end":4530.712,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在這一個法案還是在預告中預告當中我知道所以到720所以目前都在歡迎就像委員剛剛提的我們也會高度重視然後各團體的一個聲音我們也都會聽到會妥為做一個處理那事實上張時在討論這一條的時候那很多學者他是認為說"},{"start":4532.017,"end":4561.153,"text":"基本上要看的還是一個公益性因為我們這個條文他參考的是醫療法那所以某一個部分上面因為醫生在這個救護跟急救一些事情上的話他那個場域是比較封閉比較可以判斷那我們這一個部分就是說律師職業的那個範圍其實真的是很多元很快要不要說甚至是說他在公司擔任法律顧問那他這樣的也是執行職務的話會有很多"},{"start":4561.773,"end":4577.836,"text":"很多的一個部分是我們覺得太寬但是我也同意委員剛剛講的這個部分是不是說有些部分我們這樣的訂喔還是不夠的一個就過窄了那我們會聽各界的聲音再去做一個妥適的一個處理因為事實上如果假設是我"},{"start":4579.357,"end":4598.573,"text":"這個還沒有回去討論啦但是問題是說基本上應該是說我們既然要訂這一個條文基本上還是應該是以說能夠讓律師執行職務上的一個公益性能夠徹底的一個被保障啦所以如果說這個開完車以後到就是一離開法院的這樣還是在很密接的執行職務的時間"},{"start":4599.894,"end":4624.623,"text":"這樣的狀況如果說就法條上就不能適用的話確實我們也會有一些擔心所以這個部分跟委員報告我們回去我們會整體在7月20號後我們會把所有的聲音都收集起來再進行更進一步的一個討論再來確認說那個範圍到底多寬才算是合適因為其實下一個部分可能警政署也要一起這個部分也是想要一起請各位請警政署"},{"start":4632.366,"end":4660.949,"text":"好就是因為這個東西其實延續到警察在第一線執法的時候會不會可以啦就是說因為在幾個委員的版本其實都有提到如果律師合法執行職務時呢受到滋擾或妨礙警察機關應該要協助排除或制止這個設計呢其實希望在風險發生之前升高之前就緩快來協助避免進一步發生暴力或傷害事件嘛那但是因為法務部現在還是放在事件發生之後的一個刑事處罰"},{"start":4661.83,"end":4688.867,"text":"並沒有規定這個警察機關可以來及時排除或制止那當然警察的確是說依照我們現在的警察法或是職權行使法它涉及危及公共安全以及公共秩序個人生命身體自由財產等等它是可以來採取必要措施可是這是一般性的危害防止所以也不是針對於律師因為執行公務務而造成的執行職務而受到的一些侵擾所以我想要請警政署說明的是說"},{"start":4690.147,"end":4714.308,"text":"這樣子的 現在這樣子的一個規定是否因為它現在的這個法務部的版本35條之一沒有明文寫入警察協助排除或制止也沒有建立跨機關的SOP的時候第一線員警是否有辦法介入呢在沒有明確發生傷害但已經有私勞賭人衝突等等的情形的時候是否可以介入還是會比較保守呢好 主席各位委員 各位先進"},{"start":4716.189,"end":4732.52,"text":"本部就這個部分來提出說明那有關在律師合法執行職務的時候如果有遭遇暴力脅迫怒罵或其他非法的情私那如果有這樣的具體的一個情況那因為他已經違反這個刑法社會秩序的話當然我們會到場來"},{"start":4734.321,"end":4760.231,"text":"來做處理那另外如果他在合法執行職務的時候有具體的這個獄警的情資啊他可以預先到我們警察機關來報案或者是說當下立即撥打110來報案那我們員警也是會來到場來做適當的處理所以你的意思是說在現在這個範圍裡面只要有這個可能賭人跟隨即便他還沒有明確的傷害結果警察就可以介入"},{"start":4761.722,"end":4780.22,"text":"有這個具體的預警情資的話可以提早跟我們來做一個包案那我們會做適當的一個處理好喔 了解 好 謝謝那我們還是想要來請教一下法務部啦因為我覺得這樣看起來就是要預警這個他們要啟動的要件是有足夠的預警情資嘛對不對但是有些時候是真的"},{"start":4780.86,"end":4798.27,"text":"沒有辦法嘛對不對不一定有辦法啦所以我想了解就是說因為我們其實在看到社工法因為你剛剛講的是醫療法那我想提供一個參考畢竟現在是在日告的過程因為我自己會覺得其實跟社工法應該也有一些可以來參考的地方在第19條裡面社工師執行業務時有受到妨礙"},{"start":4801.832,"end":4816.779,"text":"或身體精神遭受不法侵害之餘時得請求警察機關提供必要之協助我想問的是說我們是不是有可能參考社工司法因為它其實也是一個前面先有一個可以先請警察來協助的過程那接下來呢它再來就是"},{"start":4818.88,"end":4836.736,"text":"你把這個範圍也寫得很明確我們是不是可以參考社工司法來訂定呢這是一個參考市長你的想法我們回去也一起就針對這個部分再去做進一步的一個就是說再去就讓它更完善那因為其實我們像警察的這個部分因為其實剛剛"},{"start":4837.841,"end":4866.468,"text":"我們警政署這邊也有說明就是說它一般上面可能依照我們警察法第九條大概也可以完成現在的一個狀況那也就是說在於機關安全這部分我知道其實我也很重視那目前上面來講本部也發函各檢查機關去妥適的去規劃機關的一個動線空間動線透過門禁制度安全檢查罰警維安還有應變機制然後預防暴力的發生然後維護這個民眾跟律師還有其他訴訟"},{"start":4867.268,"end":4882.483,"text":"的這個參與人的安全這部分因為委員很關心有 我們有看到對 特別跟您說一下這可以肯定啦是 謝謝對 那主要就是說這部分參考社工司法是可以是OK的嘛 對不對就是因為它的範圍什麼都寫得相對明確啦那最後一個"},{"start":4883.604,"end":4905.536,"text":"我想就是說今天其實問了這些問題包含很多的委員的關注其實都是希望制度要兼顧三件事情啦最重要就是三件事情第一個就是說律師在依法執行職務的時候他不會因為人身安全而退縮啦那第二個呢就是說我們當事人的權利也不應該因為他的律師受到威脅而受到影響"},{"start":4906.596,"end":4927.05,"text":"那第三個呢是我們合法陳情批評或者是表意都應該受到保障沒有錯但是一旦進入了威脅賭人或衝突升高的危安情境的時候我認為國家就應該要有清楚明確及時的保護機制來保護我們的律師我們的他在執行業務的這個安全好謝謝"},{"start":4954.383,"end":4956.366,"text":"好 下一位我們有請莊瑞雄委員好 謝謝主席有請我們法務部封城次長有請次長司法院的吳庭長司法院的吳庭長"},{"start":4978.922,"end":5002.544,"text":"我想今天要來請教,我剛聽了張雅玲委員的一個質詢,其實我是蠻敬佩的。一個非法律人,可是把現在律師,尤其是社會上發生的一些個案的一個案例,講得都非常面面俱到。但是我們必須要澄清就是說,今天的這個修法,它其實並不是打壓律師。"},{"start":5003.685,"end":5027.659,"text":"是要讓少數的這些律師界的害群之馬不能拖垮整個律師制度的一個公信力三十年過去了我有兩個條文我就特別熟第一個條文就是我們刑法第一條那個罪行法定主義行為時之處罰行為之處罰以行為時之法律有規定者為限第二條就是什麼呢就是律師法第一條"},{"start":5028.717,"end":5031.68,"text":"律師法第一條講的就是律師是保障人權,實現社會正義,促進民主法治。這條三十段我都不用唸,第一條我又記得很清楚,每一個人每一個人的職業。"},{"start":5043.445,"end":5070.907,"text":"可是今天就很感慨看大家談到這樣的一個修法裡面整個今天的修法我看起來其實倒也不是說在保障律師面面大家都每一個面向都有去談到就是說其實對於對律師的一個保障其實他也是人民獲得法律制度協助的一個權利你說律師的安全到底是要在什麼樣一個地方場景"},{"start":5072.368,"end":5073.831,"text":"是法官看得到的地方或者馮總執掌你應該聽到裡面很清楚有時候你們會去旅刊到現場去"},{"start":5081.809,"end":5100.584,"text":"法官或檢察官走了以後還當事人在現場那這一些到底還算不算在保障的一個範圍裡面那尤其是啊律師的懲戒那條文其實寫得很嚴寫得很嚴格啦但是幾乎沒有去啟動所以民眾當然會覺得說你那懲戒人這麼少是不是都中特權所以說真正的辯護權其實確實是要保障但是呢讓犯罪集團把辯護權變成篡證"},{"start":5111.933,"end":5139.026,"text":"魅症的一個工具喔這有點開玩笑啦我相信社會對這個都沒有辦法來接受啦所以本席今天的一個質詢就特別有感啦因為對的書該喔實在是就怎麼會出現了這麼多的個案裡面去讓外界覺得律師界好像害群自馬還真的還不少所以我們就必須要去強調的就是說其實這一切的修法真的不是在打壓辯護權而是說這些防堵少數人去濫用這樣的一個辯護權"},{"start":5140.327,"end":5166.059,"text":"所以我們看整個法律都一直在修訂 一直在進步法界有時候剛開始尤其檢察官也非常排斥啊你說律師的月卷啊 偵查章中啊 律件啊 陪偵啊其實都已經變成憲法保證的一個辯護權了但是犯罪集團去利用律師制度取得的這些偵查的資訊來進行篡證的話我相信在立法院裡面"},{"start":5167.239,"end":5179.776,"text":"各黨也沒有顏色大家也都跟法務部我相信跟司法院這個地方大家也認同說這個部分那確實是這個嚴厲來去做一個防堵但也有一個問題我要請教廳長就是說這就是說那個範圍的問題"},{"start":5185.253,"end":5195.655,"text":"跟法務部可能司法院可能會有不一樣你說2017年羈押月券修法以前你要看那陣十年裡面七件律師涉密案因為不可以月券當然就少嘛那你修法以後到2025年三十八件其中就是詐欺 組織犯罪跟洗錢佔了二十件超過一半 五成那這一些這樣數量"},{"start":5213.912,"end":5224.445,"text":"三十八件到底多或少我沒有辦法去做一個每一個人感受會不一樣但是我一直認為說法務部跟司法院應該建立一個指引"},{"start":5225.438,"end":5243.266,"text":"就是有雙軌 兩軌認定 我也跟妳說這是辯護權的行使啊那正在檢察官的立場會認為說你不能利用制度的一個修改 進步了以後那你把它當成一個犯罪的一個工具檢察官會比較認定 會去洩密可是司法院這個地方也有認為說這沒有"},{"start":5245.047,"end":5269.282,"text":"這個是辯護權的一個行使所以說如何區分正當的辯護跟不當的一個泄密不然這有些人也麻煩耶律師如果賭信說那個不是泄密的話他也有他的一個風險那這個部分是不是說也支持全立會這個地方律師全聯會偵查中的一個資訊揭露是不是你拿來做一個指引不然你給全聯會說一個指引出來之後沒有得到認可他們講的也不算數啊我問一下廠長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5276.625,"end":5297.474,"text":"跟委員報告確實就是說其實從我以前念書的時候我們就知道說整個刑事訴訟法其實就是實體的真實發現跟程序正義在拉扯的那過去讓律師在偵查中可以越卷這個明顯的就是希望能夠促進真實發現因為律師資訊越多他還能提供實質有效的辯護"},{"start":5298.474,"end":5318.283,"text":"那但是同時也發生一個問題就是說到底在辯護權的行使跟所謂的偵查不公開泄密的這樣的一個程序到底它的那個界線要劃在哪裡尤其是我們這幾年來律師是大量的入局那事實上整個市場我必須要講說整個律師市場其實是非常競爭的"},{"start":5319.463,"end":5334.113,"text":"那律師也希望能夠在業務上能夠得到一些擴展所以當他把線拉得越緊的時候可能大家當事人就說那你什麼都不給我看都不讓我了解我怎麼跟你討論案情但是這東西又卸得到那講到什麼程度就變成了洩密"},{"start":5334.853,"end":5351.379,"text":"所以我很贊同委員說就是說需要有一個很明確的指引讓這些不管是即使是資深的律師也面臨相同的問題有一個方向那其實整個規範律師的行為其實律師跟法官講話一樣都是專業人士他一定有他的職業的倫理規範律師也有律師倫理規範"},{"start":5354.62,"end":5369.166,"text":"那這個應該要在倫理規範裡做很明確的一個界定那這個同時是不要去侵害到律師這個團體的一個自治的一個自律的一個權限那同時又能夠達到讓社會去了解說律師是受到規範的所以我"},{"start":5371.507,"end":5399.589,"text":"我個人這個比較建議是說是不是從律師倫理規範的部分先著手來由權律會來發動一個內部的自律自省那因為他們都是專業律師他們比較了解律師在職業的過程中他要面臨什麼樣的抉擇跟困境那讓他們來定那當然這個倫理規範應該會有一個一定的主管機關的一個核備如果我沒有了解錯的話那從這邊再由公部門來做適當的介入是不是一個好的方式好"},{"start":5401.19,"end":5424.184,"text":"謝謝 這個也很清楚啦 但針對於律師啊 涉重大犯罪以後停止職業的一個制度啊現在社會大眾也認為說有點失靈啦 用律師界來看的話那當然就 人家認為說大家會彼此袒護同才啦你看近六年喔 這個257名律師受懲戒 真正遭受除名的不到十人"},{"start":5424.784,"end":5448.114,"text":"那近五年特定犯罪重罪起訴暫停庭業者兩位啦所以社會大臣當然會認為說 哇 你們這些都做不來那現在律師懲戒裡面 懲戒委員會十五席律師七席 法官三席 檢察官三席 其實比例差不多啦七三三嘛 跟社會公正人事兩席那其實律師代表當然是最大單一的一個來源那當然會"},{"start":5450.875,"end":5475.865,"text":"你說這個說過度強調同儕自治看起來好像也不會的因為畢竟你這個法官跟檢察官都各三席然後社會公正人士也兩席那這個啟動會不會過於謹慎所以我想請這個法務部這個地方因為主管機關嘛 對不對應該也能再進一步的提出一些資料因為畢竟大家要修法嘛就是說近五年來交付懲罰的訴論"},{"start":5478.186,"end":5484.29,"text":"感恩特寫也應該有的嘛,由誰來移送懲戒,涉及哪些類型,類型,還有最終的處分結果是怎麼樣,我這樣來討論比較有實意啦,不然大家都說歷史懲戒,那幾天寫得很嚴重,看來說還要怕死人,結果你看這這樣幾年時間下來的話,社會當然會有所..."},{"start":5501.1,"end":5524.728,"text":"質疑啦那另外喔我必須要講的就是說剛提到的那個整個律師職業的一個安全我看張雅玲委員也特別去提到你看那個2017年台南的台南的律師叫他弄死那個台中是縱火那個還有2026年當然這個那個理事長就被我打那個事情嘛那我在我在想啦這個對整個律師職業的安全確實變成一個現實的一個問題啦那"},{"start":5529.389,"end":5533.971,"text":"法務部,當然你們現在版本裡面的保護範圍裡面被質疑,會不會太過於狹窄的問題因為剛本席也提到啦,就是說你在勘驗現場啊,有時候你法官離開啦,或者檢察官離開啊,這是第一種啊,你要強制執行在現場,那警察離開以後呢?"},{"start":5546.897,"end":5567.453,"text":"那這些也都常常會碰到的事情啊那你說當然有人會認為說律師私下的和解啦或者說在這個律師事務所到底算不算那範圍當然都可以討論但至少本席剛所提到的那一些確實會造成那個場域裡面你們把他限縮在法官或檢察官看得到的地方那個就太小了有時候你閉庭休庭以後你剛離開以後"},{"start":5572.277,"end":5597.778,"text":"馬上在整個法庭裡面發生的那不在法官檢察官的眼皮底下算不算所以這個我認為都應該再好好來做一個研議甚至於是不是要比照醫療暴力的一個模式你說醫師受到的保護他也不限於他的急診室也不限於醫院你看他的診所施暴照樣全部都算成立那是不是可以去比照"},{"start":5598.519,"end":5605.224,"text":"我覺得都是一個方向那我想啊這個整個今天的一個討論裡面我們特別要去指出來這個確實制度該去做一個修訂的一個地方這個不是對辯護權的一個打壓這不是對律師界的一個打壓而是這些害群之馬你不把它除掉的話"},{"start":5621.255,"end":5630.639,"text":"這反而把整個律師界汙名化,這個也不好所以我要求司法院跟法務部,執行的部分要怎麼做出來我們可以主動跟全聯會跟律師公安全聯會說自己的問題,大家要執行,做回來"},{"start":5643.964,"end":5661.375,"text":"你們常常會碰到的情況 律師界更清楚但是我檢察官的擔憂是些什麼那法院有時候判決又會站在另外一個方向比較保障辯護權的方向這個兩期喔 不去做一個整合弄出一個指引出來的話這個沒完沒了 這個也不是社會之福啦 好不好好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":5677.301,"end":5686.368,"text":"接下來請我們林倩琦委員來做詢答有風雨"},{"start":5694.293,"end":5698.637,"text":"好 謝謝我們的主席莊教偉先請法務部的馮次長請馮次長"},{"start":5707.013,"end":5717.824,"text":"本席今天針對我們今天要討論的法案的一些內容還有跟我們整個司法體系這邊來做幾個面向的討論第一個部分是關於檢查體系內控究責的一個問題"},{"start":5725.251,"end":5739.413,"text":"那麼最重要就是說在檢察官洩露案件書類的資料到詐團來利用司法人員來取得一些偵查的資訊那我們整體司法要如何來防堵破口的一個問題"},{"start":5741.235,"end":5760.767,"text":"來做請教所以第一個部分先就檢查體系內部的一個管理那麼台北地院偵查那個詐騙集團律師團洩密案件的時候呢那麼又查出了涉案的律師的這個女友無性檢察官多次擅自進入法務部的書類檢查系統"},{"start":5762.448,"end":5776.997,"text":"將不起訴的處分書、起訴書還有刑事準備狀、被害人表格及案件相關的資料拍攝、截錄或透過完整的傳送部分資料也沒有遮掩當事人的姓名、地址等等"},{"start":5777.597,"end":5786.407,"text":"那我想這個部分是檢察官來利用職務系統取得司法資料之後又往外流向的這個部分律師那麼跟詐騙集團的整體產生了很大的一個風險那本席這邊要跟你們請教那麼陳俊瑋法院後來又駁回上訴"},{"start":5795.037,"end":5819.593,"text":"那麼確定最後的刑罰只有罰縫十個月不知道你們能不能接受本席了解法務部已經將上訴並主張應該免除檢察官的職務但問題是最後的結果如果只是縫路的話那麼這個制度上的問題法務部不知道怎麼樣來做一個你們的看法跟怎麼處理"},{"start":5820.533,"end":5829.902,"text":"那其實我覺得這整個應該是內控機制還有究責還有懲戒的一個攻防可能要做一個討論那麼先看看你們的一個看法呢"},{"start":5831.784,"end":5855.085,"text":"謝謝委員 其實事實上法部對於這個我們檢察官的一個品操向來都是採取最嚴格的一個標準所以任何有違法或者失當的行為我們都會依法嚴處這是我們的一個基本態度我們也會跟各地檢署的這個首長檢察長或者是我們的幹部們就是主任檢察官們都要求到說要針對於我們的檢察官"},{"start":5856.906,"end":5874.414,"text":"也都要告訴他們說我們在執行業務上必須要很慎重很小心那這一個案子呢其實剛剛委員講的應該是桃園桃檢不是北檢是桃檢的吳雅芝吳檢察官那這一個部分上他說有涉及到這個洩密詐欺男友的部分當然"},{"start":5875.254,"end":5892.569,"text":"台灣地檢的這個部分他們的個案調查後來他們認為是簽結啦那個案上面的部分本部不會去介入指導但是通函上面的部分我們有表達我們的態度我們認為判決那個就是說當就是本部的態度是認為說要這個免除職務嘛"},{"start":5893.51,"end":5916.34,"text":"那後來是經過成業法院認為說這個認為說是罰縫10個月那我們有提起上訴那後來就是還是維持原來的罰縫10個月那這個部分上我們就是尊重成業法院但是我們本部的態度還是會要求所有的檢察官都必須要注意這個注意可能得我們從我們的司法官學院"},{"start":5917.04,"end":5943.25,"text":"入行以來就是在受訓期間我們就要加我們的課程針對於所以次長你們這個部分就是你們提出來就是說可能在受訓的時候讓大家知道有這樣一個概念但是這個案子其實本席認為這不是只有什麼年輕檢察官的思慮不周啦那其實整個體系還蠻值得令人擔憂而且你們有表達一些看法那你們那個上訴來見請免除檢察官的職務結果遭駁回然後請問那法務部"},{"start":5944.19,"end":5968.122,"text":"針對這一點除了您剛才上述所講的通過法官學院在受訓的時候讓大家有這個概念但是是不是整個內控制度要做一個檢討那避免最後呢日後如果還有相似的同樣體系的一個這樣子的一個狀況但是最後你們還要抱憾而歸因為你們只是表達了態度但是整個體系是不是要做一個檢討"},{"start":5969.142,"end":5987.492,"text":"那第二部分是那你們未來怎麼樣有效來防堵檢察官跟特定律師、詐團或外部的一個關係的一個不當的勾束那剛才從法官學院這邊在前置上給大家有這樣一個教育跟概念很好但是現在事情個案已經發生或許整個檢察體系是不是應該要做一個總檢討來防止未來你們會抱憾而歸的這樣一個"},{"start":5993.895,"end":6017.163,"text":"謝謝委員關心其實我們這問題可以分成內部跟外部那我們在一開始的部分說除了我們學院開始在教育上面這個部分就要重視之外各地檢署在平常的一個這個人員上的一個這樣的一個關注跟考瞭解其實也很重要其實我們的這個事情都不會是一天發生的"},{"start":6017.403,"end":6042.626,"text":"它都會是有跡象的所以各個我們的機關的首長都要負起這樣的一個責任就是針對於說我們的同仁裡面是不是有這樣的一些狀況事實上各檢查機關裡面也都有政風的單位那我們有沒有收到相關類似的一個檢舉或者是說有一些徵兆那我們這部分就是我們的內控必須要再進一步的去讓它更加的一個落實這個我們完全贊同這個委員的意見"},{"start":6043.947,"end":6070.37,"text":"好 那我這邊就做出這樣一個提醒其實本來應該每一個人都必須要去注意這樣的事情但是我想以現在大家的這個工作量來講或許沒有辦法很全面性或系統性的來處理這樣一個制度上的漏洞我想這一點應該你們就內部的這個檢查制度要做一個內控的一個討論然後看是不是未來如何能夠針對這樣一個個案"},{"start":6071.611,"end":6081.655,"text":"能夠更大程度的一個防止那第二個部分本席要針對這個懲戒法案對洩密的懲戒標準跟檢討那這邊是不是也請司法院的這個廳長我們這邊一起來備詢"},{"start":6086.937,"end":6106.582,"text":"那剛才本席所講的一個個案的關鍵問題就是懲戒法案對這一類重大為師的一個評價能不能回應社會上對於司法廉潔的一個期待所以本席請教當一個檢察官不是單純的行政書師而是多次來利用職務系統取得相關的資料"},{"start":6107.842,"end":6129.913,"text":"後來呢又針對外部人士又牽扯到詐騙集團律師團的一個洩密這看起來不是只有普通的圍屍啦那整個對司法體系的一個撼動其實是蠻大的那本席認為目前懲戒法院對這一類檢察官洩漏案件的一個資料濫用系統等等的懲戒標準能不能符合"},{"start":6130.493,"end":6146.91,"text":"大家對社會各界對司法的這個期待司法連結的一個期待所以兩個問題那麼懲戒法案在這類案件中怎麼去衡量法務部監察院調查資料跟主管機關不適任的一個評價那如果"},{"start":6147.611,"end":6163.314,"text":"大部分司法體系的單位都認為整個情節重大但是懲戒法院最後卻認為不到這樣一個程度那麼司法院是不是應該來檢視目前的判斷標準是不是有一些個案性的讓人質疑的地方"},{"start":6163.855,"end":6181.535,"text":"那第二個部分是那未來如果檢察官法官或司法人員或律師詐團跟律師詐團案件之間有一些不當的資訊流動那司法院是不是認為這邊應該在建立更明確的一個懲戒標準那您司法院這邊的看法"},{"start":6184.656,"end":6207.243,"text":"跟委員說明一下首先我們先不談個案其實這邊不牽涉個案但是從這個個案我們就應該來思考整體體系可能碰觸到了一個問題就是懲戒法院它如果要做成一個要負懲戒的判決的話我想它第一個前提一定要確認它的違私行為是重大的"},{"start":6208.043,"end":6235.702,"text":"這個是前提那之後才是去討論說到底要用什麼樣的一個處分種類是屬於適當的那這部分就必須要去綜合很多的因素去綜合考量在個案中去做判斷那每個案子都有他考量的因素那因為這個具體的個案不一樣那司法行政體系是不宜針對這種所謂要透過法院來做審理的核心事項"},{"start":6237.483,"end":6255.053,"text":"所以本席這邊所談的這個那懲戒法院對於這樣子的一個案件那你們是不是有你認為應該有一些標準來做相關案件的一個處理呢一定有的來填補這樣一個漏洞事實上即便是懲戒法院本身它也會有歷年來的一個判決作為一個形成它的一個判斷標準譬如說它可能會去判斷洩密的這個內容是什麼"},{"start":6265.399,"end":6291.338,"text":"本席知道你們會依據過去的一些判例的一個標準但是現在的這個犯罪形式越來越快越多也越來越難以想像所以你們在面對這樣一個情形那如何的跑在這樣事件或樣態發生之前或者是已經看到這樣一個可能性去做一些標準上的一個訂定你們的看法呢"},{"start":6292.679,"end":6309.226,"text":"我還是要跟委員說其實我們現在的懲戒法院不是它的組成成員不是全部都是職業法官它還有包括民眾一般的就所謂的參審員所以它本身它的判斷就是本身就是回應了法律內部的專業跟外部意見在整合"},{"start":6309.466,"end":6337.855,"text":"所以他一樣會針對現在社會整個發展的趨勢去調整他的見解來符合這個懲戒的目的但是事實上懲戒法院在很多的案件裡頭還是有提到說懲戒是一件事情但是如果這個行為另外涉及到了嚴重的犯罪行為的時候應該真正要處理的是透過犯罪行為的處罰來回應這樣一個行為的可罰性對社會去告訴社會說今天這樣的行為是不被允許是應該要被處罰"},{"start":6338.675,"end":6362.342,"text":"那懲戒的目的是在判斷這個人到底適不適合繼續擔任檢察官或適不適合繼續擔任法官所以本席剛才所談的這樣一個樣態那是不是值得你們相關單位去做一個檢討那對於這樣一個制度性的缺口應該提早來做因應要不然如果見解過於太大的差異或許會讓社會各界有一些質疑"},{"start":6362.722,"end":6377.011,"text":"好的 這個我想我們可以透過一些研討會的方式來做一些討論我想這是可以的好 謝謝那最後是不是在很短的時間我們來談一下律師洩密跟詐團滲透的一個司法防線那這個部分就請教法務部了那麼司法院謝謝"},{"start":6378.012,"end":6399.029,"text":"那麼最後呢本席把問題往外再推一下那這個案件剛才本席所談的可能不是只有個別檢察官的失手而是我想應該大家現在都可以看到詐團很有系統的來吸收律師那可能甚至未來會逐步的有一些司法從業人員那我想剛才也是聽到你們在前面有一些諮詢的回憶裡面談到那因為現在律師的人數也眾多結果有所謂市場面的問題"},{"start":6405.114,"end":6428.282,"text":"所以市場面的問題所以我們在整個司法的道德上其實我們應該及早來做因應所以根據檢方的一個調查2006年到今天全台一共發生了33起律師遭刑法第132條第三項洩密罪起訴的案例但是呢其中前10年僅有6件但是2017年到2025年之間增加了27件"},{"start":6432.543,"end":6460.614,"text":"那也就是說律師涉入偵查涉密的案件逐年增加而且後面的這些當我們看到這個詐團越來越猖獗的時候那律師涉入的這個比例也越來越高所以很嚴重的是是不是現在犯罪集團已經利用律師的身份來陪同徵訊羈押審查月卷來掌握相關的這個進度還有或者是有一些共犯的這個公訴那甚至偵查的資訊會回流到幕後的金主上游或共犯的結構性的問題"},{"start":6462.535,"end":6483.349,"text":"那所以本席這邊跟你們談一下有關於刑法的這個刑事訴訟法主要是來保障跟落實被告的防禦權但是呢現在已經把有一些律師把這些保障然後變成詐團的一個情報管道所以呢本席在這邊請教啦是不是現在有針對律師的這個泄密處罰與懲戒會不會你們覺得現在已經不到"},{"start":6487.732,"end":6513.043,"text":"嚇阻的一個作用也就是這個犯罪的成本有點過低所以如果依照刑法第132條第三項非公務員的這個懲戒對不起非公務員的洩漏職務上或業務上的知悉持有的秘密資料最重也只有一年以下的徒刑而且還可以做一些處理那最後律師可能就認罪緩刑或懲戒那麼多半只是停留在職務的這個執行上"},{"start":6514.584,"end":6529.14,"text":"可能有一段時間有限制但是這個成本過低但是資訊的價值相對就會變得比較高那如果是這樣子那整個可能司法人員被收買的可能性又非常高"},{"start":6529.821,"end":6558.366,"text":"所以三個面向那麼針對132條 新法第132條的相關泄密罪那是不是你們會研議加重處罰或另外訂定一些妨害司法的罪名那第二個部分是那我們會不會來檢討律師的懲戒制度那以本席剛才所講的這個部分是不是可以有更嚴格的停止除名或處分的一個標準那第三呢如果在這個案件裡面被告本人或家屬"},{"start":6559.537,"end":6581.496,"text":"沒有真正委任可是卻有律師到場來陪偵的話呢那麼這有可能這樣犯罪行為就已經開始了所以檢察官如果發現特定的律師在一些案件同類型的詐欺案件或者是委任來源不明而且跟被告可能沒有實質關係的這樣一個情況那是不是會來通報律師公會來啟動"},{"start":6583.517,"end":6602.348,"text":"這個不公開的一些風險管理那這三個部分是不是可以就你們目前有的一個想法給本席做一個回應跟委員報告就是說我們的那個就是在剛剛提到的這個律師涉及不法行為的具體個案本部檢察官都會積極的去研辦 重塑研辦"},{"start":6605.47,"end":6632.026,"text":"那一層不法那我們本部目前所擬據的這個律師法的修正草案擴大律師法的第74條第一項第7條的停止審查律師的證書跟停止執行這個職務的刑事不法的這個範圍的部分我們也是行政院議院會通過這個還請立法院來做審議他就是針對於說如果你的那個刑度在最重本刑5年以上的這樣的罪通通都我們都可以聽就是說我們會"},{"start":6632.987,"end":6644.778,"text":"這個在發證書或者是地方的工會跟律師懲戒委員會都會因為第七條的這樣的一個之一的一個修正就是說第七條的這個規定就是讓這樣的一個範圍變得比較大"},{"start":6649.763,"end":6666.76,"text":"就是說我們可以針對這個部分來做有效的一個阻力那另外剛剛就是我們提到就是說有關於要設一些像我們之前會有一些防灘指引在聯任署的工作的時候會有防灘指引或一些相對應的指引讓律師都能夠了解到說"},{"start":6667.501,"end":6671.683,"text":"什麼樣是偵查不公開的範圍怎麼樣就洩密了因為這個是針對律師部的那本席這邊談到假設在檢查的這個過程當中發現有本席所講的那幾個樣態也就是說不太正常的樣態沒有實質被委任那或者是跟這個被告的一個關係上可能不是這麼的直接或者是這樣子不太確定的一個情況"},{"start":6691.133,"end":6700.693,"text":"我們如果注意到說有這樣的一個可能性或者說有這樣的犯罪的嫌疑的部分 檢察官當然我們都會重塑研辦這都會去調查了解的"},{"start":6701.291,"end":6720.586,"text":"好的 所以我們基本上還是希望現在社會跑得很快那整個犯罪的樣態似乎已經不再像過去這麼的很容易被預期所以在這個部分我們如何從體系上來補足這樣一個缺口那我想這是我們相關部會應該努力的好 謝謝"},{"start":6725.457,"end":6734.599,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琦委員的詢答那接下來請沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧委員不在我們請范雲委員來做詢答謝謝召委 有請次長馮次長來 問范雲教授 請馮次長"},{"start":6755.418,"end":6755.519,"text":"您好"},{"start":6757.481,"end":6786.227,"text":"次長早安今天我們的主題是律師的倫理跟相關的風紀自律所以我要用一個個案來討論制度上的問題要請求法務部協助這個個案是這樣子想請問這個次長如果就是有一位律師他接觸女高中生然後提供義務的法律諮詢可是卻讓這個女高中生覺得"},{"start":6787.668,"end":6799.477,"text":"女高中生後來上了大學覺得對方在她不同意之後還是搂腰超過十次甚至在後來跟對方的對話中講出我這邊所寫的"},{"start":6802.719,"end":6822.506,"text":"就是什麼沒有一夜情經驗要怎麼談性權然後我還沒攻略過花蓮女孩有吃過一個護士的花蓮人而且這個所謂的受害者申訴人明確表達這樣子聽了很不舒服您覺得這個人如果是律師的話是不是有違反相關的紀律"},{"start":6826.27,"end":6846.642,"text":"這個律師有倫理規範那剛剛我們那個召委第一條也有唸得很清楚就是這個律師法的相關的這個規範事實上來講我覺得這樣的這個部分大概社會上都有公平那以如果這個是我就講檢察官的角度來看就如果以檢察官是涉及到這樣的狀況的話那大概我看"},{"start":6847.222,"end":6868.731,"text":"之前的類似的案子裡面很多都被免職轉事務官了大概我們的檢察官的標準裡面我們的守則裡面是覺得是不行的您覺得是有違反它相關的專業倫理因為這個專業倫理的部分可能要有法律的一個諮詢的過程我們還是尊重律師自治就律師的一個他們的一個倫理規範的部分我們不便去介入評價"},{"start":6869.471,"end":6896.762,"text":"但我這轉化成說如果我們檢察官內部是這樣的話我們就會去處理那如果律師的自治團體律師公會是律師自治團體嗎覺得應該要懲戒之後應該怎麼處理律師會有那個懲戒委員會他們會去判斷那他們如果認定這個行為重大應該懲戒要怎麼處理最重的當然他有很多的不同的狀況嘛那個剛剛有提到說有的會被認為要停止職務有的會被最重的會除名"},{"start":6897.338,"end":6915.56,"text":"就是有從輕度停止一段時間的職務到最重度的是除名如果是很大的案件那我剛跟您講的這個是一個真實的陳情人那她是一位女性那這個你看她有跟我們開記者會所以她是願意站出來的"},{"start":6916.501,"end":6939.172,"text":"是MeToo運動中一個出來吹哨的黃同學他在高中的時候就被理性律師主動接觸2016年被理性律師肢體性騷擾後來他跟理性律師要求表達不舒服或希望對方能夠表達歉意之後繼續被言語性騷擾"},{"start":6940.273,"end":6968.609,"text":"那後來呢他站出來吹哨接到至少七位受害人跟他聯絡就是這位李姓律師不是只有針對一位就是女性所以呢這整個他被這位李姓律師性騷擾時間橫跨2010年到2020年那真的非常的就是勇敢的女性他開記者會的時候並沒有戴口罩所以這是當時的媒體的報導"},{"start":6970.01,"end":6993.652,"text":"那後來呢他覺得這當時MeToo我們有非常多包含由律師等等我們希望律師、會計師、牙醫師、醫師、中醫師、建築師這個都有可能涉及到不對等的專業權利關係的都可以自律我們本來以為就是事情就這樣子了那因為律師公會表達他們很願意接觸被害人所以一起開記者會"},{"start":6994.773,"end":7020.307,"text":"可是呢 沒有想到 就是這件事情到現在還沒有結果這是二零二 剛剛那是二零二幾年二零二三年的站出來了你想想一位年輕的女性要對一位專業年紀比較大的律師就是做這樣的陳述那我還是要先肯定台北律師公會接到申訴之後有處理"},{"start":7021.673,"end":7039.562,"text":"這是他們的案件的決定書2025年7月他怎麼決定他們調查之後說這位李姓律師利用執行職務之機會與委任人有不當之肢體接觸足以損害律師名譽或信用之行為"},{"start":7040.322,"end":7066.714,"text":"有失律師職業尊嚴及榮譽並避免損及律師形象不符合律師職業之品位與尊嚴違反律師法第二條第三十九條律師倫理規範第三條第六條等規定而且情節重大當屬無疑這個是台北律師公會的報告就是我們跟他請問他提供給我們的報告那再來應該怎麼樣這是次長"},{"start":7069.315,"end":7093.374,"text":"知事 知道嗎跟委員報告一般來講地方公會它有一副懲戒的一個移送懲戒的權利那會到律師懲戒委員會那依照律師法第八九條第一項的規定律師懲戒委員會應於受理的懲戒事件後三個月內完成審議必要時的延長到六個月所以事實上來講就是說如果照這個部分上面來看它基本上"},{"start":7094.234,"end":7119.815,"text":"律懲會的這個成員包括法官檢察官律師如果我不曉得目前這一個案的一個實際的狀況都可能還要再回去所以依照您剛剛那個答被如流2025年7月如果送給律師懲戒委員會半年內會有結果是不是應該是這樣子法條是規定說受理懲戒事件後三個月內完成這個審議必要時得延長制"},{"start":7120.495,"end":7147.716,"text":"三個月內完成審議必要時得延長至六個月所以延長到六個月所以說這一件的部分我們可能回去再跟官員聊一下我現在不是只是為這個個案我知道那也讓那個次長知道一下這個案子的情況2025年7月台北律師工會就移赴律師懲戒委員會您講的六個月應該是今年1月那現在是2026年6月"},{"start":7149.958,"end":7175.309,"text":"目前進度不明啊那後來這個受害當事人就決定委託司改會幫他追了一位當事人不可能追得到律師懲戒委員會連司改會這麼重要一個律師的組織都你知道得到的答案就是進度不明欸所以完全不是您剛講的三個月到六個月內會有結果"},{"start":7177.57,"end":7205.973,"text":"那不知道為什麼我們去查相關的規定跟您講的不太一樣就是所謂的律師懲戒及審議細則就是還定的是分案後兩個月內要做成審議意見一個月內要召開審議會議審議會議七日內做成決議聽起來很有效率分案後兩個月一個月好像三個月加七天之類的可是問題是什麼時候分案我們辦公室追一追"},{"start":7207.054,"end":7230.974,"text":"一副律師懲戒委員會到分案之間不知道要多久欸好像沒有規定跟您剛剛講的那個三個月六個月非常不一樣欸到底是哪裡出了問題這個次長跟委員報告我們講的這個條文是律師法第八十九條第一項它是法律那委員現在秀在螢幕上這個是律師懲戒跟審議的所以這個行政命令違反法律"},{"start":7231.314,"end":7259.989,"text":"也不是 它是更進一步的去定怎麼樣去操作這樣的一個事情那可是已經違反你剛剛講的法律定的六個月因為這個不是本部的業務所以我們會去幫忙了解請問這是哪一個單位 是司法院嗎司法院可不可以也一起一下今天來了是吳廳長因為那個次長說是你們的業務的確是 這個律師懲戒委員會預算是放在你們司法院嗎"},{"start":7260.822,"end":7275.736,"text":"沒有說是他們,就是說不是我們那是誰?不是法務部是誰的業務?這個律師懲戒委員會懲戒委員會應該是一個獨立的機關是獨立的他不會隸屬於司法院也不會那這樣子他的這個細節、細則已經影響人民權益的話那應該誰來處理?他這麼獨立"},{"start":7287.624,"end":7305.342,"text":"細則應該是法務部來主管所以剛法務部說你們 然後你們說法務部應該這麼說啦 就是懲戒委員會是一個獨立的那律師法是本部主管的業務然後我們的律師法規定的這89條我剛剛已經唸給委員聽了嘛那至於細則這個部分細則是誰管 這個律師懲戒及審議細則是誰管"},{"start":7309.326,"end":7338.708,"text":"其實是按照律師法去定這樣律師法主管機關是保護所以就不是司法院囉所以說跟委員報告他是這個規定出了問題還是操作出了問題我不知道啊林市長林市司法保護部長官嘛因為今天委員提的這個事情我們是就是我們聽到以後我們回去會了解一下說可能這個因為這個獨立的單位裡面他有沒有分案或者移送的狀況怎麼樣細節部分我們會再跟委員做一個說明跟報告"},{"start":7338.848,"end":7364.18,"text":"那我要講的事情是這麼勇敢一個女生這麼2023年就站出來現在是2026年了這樣子一個案子而且台北律師公會說情節重大然後當事人站出來之後還有多個受害人跟他聯絡所以最後就是一個當事人出來申訴而且有司改會在背後追都追到現在沒結果"},{"start":7365.04,"end":7382.249,"text":"我真的不知道大家其他人是怎麼樣追這些事情林仲豪律師在司改會的座談會說律師懲戒有三大挑戰他的意思是說調查權能空洞化法律適用僵化資源組織轉型不足所以常常塞案"},{"start":7383.169,"end":7412.023,"text":"所以我們今天修法修半天到時候這個機制根本就沒有用處那我們修這個法我很懷疑 就是說司法院跟法務部有沒有真正在關心這件事情好 那我告訴你我們辦公室去查我們作為立委助理都看到地方律師公會根本就沒有把這個申訴程序放在網站上所以公開申訴管道也不明確所以大家顯然都不希望有人來申訴相關的事情"},{"start":7412.583,"end":7432.315,"text":"所以我們修法修半天是不是根本就沒有效果那我認為多數的律師都是非常的專業很棒像我們那個昭偉這個大律師真的是非常好可是呢我們不可以讓少數個別律師影響律師整體專業形象嘛這是我們法務部跟司法院要保護的對不對"},{"start":7433.476,"end":7457.839,"text":"所以可不可以研究一下其他民主國家的律師自律做法跟你剛剛的那個所謂的那個行政命令等等到底是哪裡本國的這個相關行政規範哪裡出問題那協助律師公會至少建置可供民眾申訴的公開管道網站上是不是可以寫清楚一點流程那最後也請司法院"},{"start":7459.113,"end":7482.584,"text":"雖然這個行政命令是法務部管的預算是放在你們那裡的司改會的座談會說沒有錢人太少所以塞車是不是可以提供資源讓律師懲戒委員會不要再以人力不足為由一個案子可以拖這麼的久就是拖了連台北律師公會送進去都一年了沒有下文當事人得不到一個交代"},{"start":7482.884,"end":7506.676,"text":"可以嗎 這三件事 法務部兩件 司法院一件可以答應我 可以做到嗎我們回去第一會了解這個委員剛剛提的這個案件的部分目前到底是哪裡出了問題那第二個部分就是說有關於說因為我們的這個律師就剛剛我們講他有高度的一個自治性那我們這部分因為我們也會跟律師公會這邊都有很多接觸的一個機會"},{"start":7507.216,"end":7527.546,"text":"自治的台北律師公會說這個人案情重大 送懲戒了我們會把建議他們就是說讓我們的一些制度上的東西能夠更順暢更透明這個部分我們會去跟他們做那我們在修罰懲戒的時候這個機制要是能夠運作有效率的而不是讓大家覺得被吃案了好不好"},{"start":7529.026,"end":7555.94,"text":"也跟委員說明一下那個綠城會的預算並不是由司法院編的那請問是由誰呢目前是由司法院高院提供場地跟書記官來協助綠城會開會而已那綠城會如果說他資源不足塞案那這是應該誰提供資源你們一個法務部一個司法院都說不知道這不是很奇特嗎委員我們回去再把他了解清楚我們辦公室看到的預算是在司法院下面啦"},{"start":7558.272,"end":7580.13,"text":"獨立 但他預算總不會叫那些律師代表自己出吧好好"},{"start":7581.231,"end":7597.346,"text":"兩位一位是次長 法務部次長一位是司法院司法行政廳廳長兩位都不知道這個資源誰提供可見大家沒有在關心這個律師懲戒委員會好不好請你們回去了解清楚多久內可以給本席一個書面報告還是有個時間吧我們這樣可以追蹤"},{"start":7605.097,"end":7630.19,"text":"一個月 兩位都可以一個月好 一個月我等你們報告好 謝謝 好 謝謝昭緯好 謝謝范雲委員的詢答那我先來做一下會議程序的一個宣告那等一下在我們稍後在王委員 黃薇詢答完畢以後我們就休息五分鐘那接續我們請徐委員 徐宇珍來進行詢答"},{"start":7633.544,"end":7637.287,"text":"許以珍委員請謝謝主席 我們請馮次長請次長 請上台"},{"start":7656.055,"end":7669.765,"text":"委員好市長好我們今天審查的這個律師法原則上這些法案大概有兩個重點一個就是保護依法執業的律師另外一個就是嚴懲違規失職的律師大概就這兩個重點當然我想"},{"start":7672.366,"end":7701.326,"text":"對於法務部的原則來說一定跟我們一樣就是希望不是只有管理律師也是要保護律師所以有這兩個修法的一個重點那依據這個院版現在有提出來修正第七條就是故意犯最重本刑五年以上之罪經檢察官起訴作為限制的門檻那請問一下你們把現行的條文修改成目前這樣子的修法重點是什麼"},{"start":7702.873,"end":7721.366,"text":"因為我們原本的那個條文裡面它是就是說罪重本刑五年以上之貪污、行賄、侵占、詐欺、背信跟罪輕本刑一年以上有期徒刑那因為它有列舉到一些罪名啊所以說它就等於說有一些罪名沒有列舉到的因為我們罪行法定原則就會沒有辦法用進來"},{"start":7723.587,"end":7737.876,"text":"包括說可能現在很多的像是這個洗錢或者是參與組織犯罪對 像詐騙對 這很嚴重的部分所以我們用現在的修過來用整體刑度上就是故意犯罪這種本刑五年以上有期徒刑的部分那這樣就能夠涵蓋了處罰嗎對 這我剛剛講的部分就可以涵蓋進來"},{"start":7741.158,"end":7757.021,"text":"因為你現在講說是因為原來有劣局嗎貪污行賄侵佔詐欺被信這個部分那現在這樣子的處理的話就變成涵蓋的範圍更廣那請問一下我們現在看到的就是說要最重本行五年以上的有期徒刑"},{"start":7757.742,"end":7775.398,"text":"那我們覺得就是應該我們在針對尤其現在詐騙集團非常猖獗然後尤其也很多跟我們看到很多案例就是跟律師這邊可能有一些藏匿這個刑事的證據還有洩露偵查的內容跟協助犯人逃避這個追問已經嚴重的這個破壞了我們這個偵查的一個程序跟社會對律師的一個信賴"},{"start":7781.263,"end":7799.283,"text":"所以判斷我們認為判斷一個律師是否適合繼續執業不能只看他罪名的這個法定型的高低也應該是要考量到他是不是有利用律師身份犯罪然後侵害當事人的權益或妨礙司法的程序所以法務部因為針對這樣子的話我們還是覺得"},{"start":7801.465,"end":7812.131,"text":"真的會有掛役漏案之嫌所以法務部是否同意甄列就是犯罪情節足以損害律師信譽或執法公正的補充要件"},{"start":7813.093,"end":7836.896,"text":"根文委員報告我們除了這樣的一個第七條的這樣的一個修正其實我們後面還有一個74條部分就是說有第七條第一項的狀況律師懲戒委員會去做命他停止這個職務的一個部分因為目前上面來講就是說我知道其實剛剛委員講就完全講到本部的一個重點一個我們要保護然後我們對壞的律師我們也要做一個懲戒"},{"start":7838.397,"end":7855.225,"text":"那所以說那個精神上是在於說對於不肖律師但是我們也很慎重因為畢竟他是起訴起訴之後就是說如果對他有一些部分的話我們還是希望能夠交由律師懲戒委員會來做一個判斷那這樣子會比較就是說"},{"start":7856.585,"end":7877.277,"text":"因為剛剛因為有幾個委員都有提到這個律師懲戒委員會這個他們在這個做成停止職業決定前原則上就可以我們的律師就可以繼續接案嗎那剛剛也我想也特別想請教您就是說事實上從移送到決定停職平均需要多久的時間我們"},{"start":7883.454,"end":7899.104,"text":"這個部分的數據我可能再提供給委員因為我們目前上我們手邊沒有說他的平均大概要多久對 因為剛剛聽起來的話很多都可能就是在律師承接委員會送到律師承接委員會之後但是一直都沒有下文那可能這樣子也會造成就是說"},{"start":7900.925,"end":7916.915,"text":"就疑似違法的律師可是他就可以一直的執業那我們也避免就涉案的律師在審議拖延時間繼續執業那我們也希望說這個部分我們是不是雖然說剛剛聽起來好像法務部跟這個司法院都認為不是這個司法懲教委員會是個獨立的機關你們沒有辦不是屬於這個你們這個兩個不管是法務部或司法院的這個職權"},{"start":7926.3,"end":7951.522,"text":"但這樣聽起來的話就變律師懲戒委員會就感覺上好像就是一個沒有人可以管的單位那他到底在這邊做成一個審判之前停職處分之前的話感覺他可以無限的拖延那也會讓人家覺得說律師跟律師之間會不會有這樣子的一個互相的一個保護的一個這樣的舉止所以這個部分我覺得可能要請我們次長"},{"start":7954.305,"end":7976.247,"text":"針對這部分我們可能也要來好好的了解一下回去我們會再了解啦因為其實因為律懲會我們也要因為他很獨立然後他是包含的成員當然有法官檢察官律師跟學者那我們之前是沒有聽到說有這個拖延審查期間的這樣的一個情形那今天因為那個我們剛剛法院委員有提醒這件事情"},{"start":7977.208,"end":7987.615,"text":"那我們回去會針對這一件了解看狀況到底出在哪裡我想應該絕對不會只有這一件啦我們還是要主動的去了解跟關心是不是有拖延分案或者說分案之後有什麼我們這個部分上我們會再去了解會後再請次長把相關的資料也給我們司法法治委員會我們會跟那個律師懲戒委員會這邊詢問然後看資料"},{"start":8005.106,"end":8032.275,"text":"另外呢就是說針對剛剛還講一個就是要保護我們的律師因為近年我想最近也發生很多律師因為懲罰案件被這個恐嚇甚至暴力攻擊的案件那所以我們有很多委員也提出35條之一的修正草案就是應該就是要有我們明確的規範處罰方式跟公權力介入機制那目前請問一下法務部針對這個修法你們的意見是什麼"},{"start":8033.714,"end":8055.409,"text":"我們其實對於律師的一個職業的一個尊嚴還有他在職業上就是因為是要確保我們的憲法上訴訟權跟整個程序上的一個正當跟實現個案的正義其實這個部分我們是非常重視的所以我們在這個部分上有仿照這個醫療法的一個體系還有社會幫助執法所以也是支持這樣子的一個法的修正"},{"start":8056.349,"end":8075.391,"text":"預告的條文是三十五條 質疑是針對於他執行職務上對於有強暴脅迫 恐嚇或其他非法方法 凡是執行律務一樣那個刑度都是三年以下然後得病科信財幣三十萬以下的罰金那後面第二項的部分是屬於加重結果犯就是說如果他造成了律師的一個致死跟"},{"start":8075.971,"end":8088.039,"text":"是這個重傷的話分別致死的話是無期徒刑跟7年以上有期徒刑所以這是現在目前法務部也有一個修法的一個重點那也是跟我們很多委員的版本其實一樣嗎所以表示我們法務部也認為這樣的修法是應該支持要保護啦 要保護"},{"start":8093.583,"end":8118.704,"text":"但是針對還有一個版本就是說你將適用範圍限於律師與司法人員執行職務時對律師以強暴 脅迫 恐嚇或其他非法的方式妨礙其執行律師的業務可是如果是在法院之外比如說他在事務所或他在調解或是強制執行的一個現場遭受到攻擊是不是就不適用這樣子的一個新規定那限縮的範圍"},{"start":8122.528,"end":8142.866,"text":"其實這一個主要是說在當時在討論的時候認為說律師他跟前面兩個醫療法跟社工司法的一個執行業務上他的一個執行的業務的態樣上律師明顯是非常的多元他跟那個那另外兩個職業上的這樣執行職務上的公益性其實我們強調不是單純保護職業"},{"start":8146.209,"end":8174.223,"text":"對 就是我像你們的報告我有看到就是說他可以自由選擇他要不要接案嘛可是那如果是法服咧醫護辨護或指定辨護咧所以委員會我們也他就沒有辦法自己決定我們剛剛也有提到嘛因為我們這是草案的一個預告就是說我們到7月20號我們會廣納各界的一個聲音然後我們再去做一個寬窄的一個判斷事實上來講我也認同說律師的一個那個職業上的一個保障就是說我們還是要周延"},{"start":8174.503,"end":8202.164,"text":"對 因為本席認為就是他自主接受委任跟國家是不是應該保障他執法的安全好像沒有相關性吧委員的寶貴的意見我們也會納進來我們會一併思考看看怎麼樣做出一個更合適的一個方式是的 我想既然要修法我們就把它修得事實上是真正能夠保護我們的律師那當然如果說現在這個狀況的話就是法務部認為就是警察法院跟檢察署本來就有安全維護的責任那"},{"start":8205.066,"end":8224.194,"text":"這個律師是不是可以在這個增訂就是律師因執行職務遭受跟踪滋擾恐嚇或暴力威脅使相關機構應該立即介入排除制止並啟動通報跟保護措施呢"},{"start":8224.814,"end":8254.032,"text":"這個因為我們也有詢問過這個我們警政署這邊的一個意見啦因為事實上現行的法條的部分依照我們警方這邊的一個意見也是就是足夠啦只要說通知警察都會立即來做一個排除不過當天的那個案件在台中的律師這個案件並其實法警也在現場嘛那但是也都也沒有其他的其實如果當以當天的律師的那一個案子就理事長那個案子他其實並不是受委任對他不是受委任所以他即便照我們目前的這個狀況可能也不適用"},{"start":8254.831,"end":8269.877,"text":"對那這樣子針對不是受委任這樣一個狀況的話那是另外一個狀況了那就是說可能他只是在那地方遇到那是屬於機關安全上跟通報當然這也是我要請教你的問題相對這樣子的一個案例的話那我們在法律上有怎麼樣可以保障他呢"},{"start":8270.417,"end":8298.425,"text":"我們目前就是說事實上檢查機關我們有去這個發函就是說我們有去跟各地各檢查機關講就說我們盤點一個強化安全管理的機制然後也要提升機關內部的一個風險的一個區別能力那就是說落實保障安全事實上在地檢署或在法院這個機關之中如果有遭受到人身的一個恐嚇或威脅那這是對也算是說對機關上來講是一個非常的一個"},{"start":8299.105,"end":8314.696,"text":"所以我們在這部分上我想無論是那個法院或者是地檢署我們都在重視這個部分我想針對本席認為說針對他不是委任律師但是在法院上他確實遭受到攻擊這樣這個律師的人身安全我們應該也要給予他保障"},{"start":8316.557,"end":8339.362,"text":"其實再跟委員補充一句其實像當時那個律師公會那理事長我印象中台中地檢有立刻做強烈的我們的一個表達我們的一個支持律師的一個態度就是我們有去申請紀案但現場的狀況不是這樣嗎他就是遭受到傷害了好嗎所以針對既然我講要修法我們就可以把這個部分也能夠修進去真正來保障律師的人身安全好嗎謝謝"},{"start":8342.284,"end":8350.79,"text":"好 那個 OK 請回 次長請回我們再來請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝 謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請保護部好 請次長委員好"},{"start":8366.01,"end":8381.096,"text":"市長好 我們先來就律師執行職務的時候一旦受到恐嚇威脅甚至暴力等所以本席跟黃建豪委員廖瑋祥委員共28人提出了第增訂35條之一"},{"start":8383.777,"end":8400.564,"text":"那首先要來請教因為你們預告的這個內容跟本席方向是一致的但是在這個年限的部分有所部分可以做討論溝通所以針對本席第35條之一對於律師依法執行職務時以這個強暴"},{"start":8405.449,"end":8431.354,"text":"脅迫恐嚇或其他的非法方式呢足以妨礙其執行職務者處三年以下有期徒刑得併科罰金至新台幣三十萬元以下這個我們有共識那但是針對於前項的這個犯前項之罪因而律師致死處無期徒刑或者是十年以上有期刑責你們的預告是七年"},{"start":8433.341,"end":8452.469,"text":"那跟本席所提無期徒刑的這個上限但是底線呢這個你們預告是七年本席提的是十年那我們要共同來討論還有一個重罪者重傷者是處五年以上十二年以下的這個有期徒刑所以首先要來請教次長"},{"start":8453.749,"end":8470.809,"text":"在這樣子的一個樣態社會面認為這是一個必須要去解決的一個社會現象那也謝謝行政部門也看到這個問題所以如果依照目前的刑法普通傷害或者是強制或者是恐惡"},{"start":8471.65,"end":8492.288,"text":"的一個處理他沒有辦法去保障律師的一個安全而且要維護也沒有辦法去維護整個司法程序的一個正常運作所以本席要請教針對我們所提出的這樣子一個方向方向理念是一致的但是針對七年跟十年你的看法"},{"start":8493.266,"end":8508.693,"text":"跟委員報告因為他那個我們的這個條文上就是說跟委員講的就是一樣就是保障我們律師的一個職業上的一個方向是一致的所以說他的條文上的一個結構他基本上是跟我們保護醫師"},{"start":8510.074,"end":8538.573,"text":"跟保護我們的社工社會工作室他的那個行度都是一樣的因為他們這個職業上醫師在急救上他的職業上他如果致重傷致死也是這樣的一個行度所以我們如果今天針對律師做一個不同的一個行度上的一個設計的話這樣子在職業上跟類型上的部分會有一些失衡的這個就是我們必須要提出來討論我覺得我們在訂定法律的時候因為每一個行業的型態也不一樣"},{"start":8540.054,"end":8554.26,"text":"醫師跟律師跟社工跟護理師他的一個樣態也會不一樣所以必須還要再積極討論那當然方向是一致的必須要嚴懲那這個我們希望大家"},{"start":8554.8,"end":8580.055,"text":"正式討論的時候我們再好好討論接下來我要跟你討論的是在粉專裡頭靠北監獄監所他在5月28號貼出了一個文也就是當時矯正機關工廠發生了收容所打架的事件但是 理由是說警報器沒有反應無線電故障了 救護人員求援得不到資源這是一個嚴肅的議題"},{"start":8581.616,"end":8595.706,"text":"借戶人員在第一線求援但是他得不到資源這個問題是很大的所以在基層裡頭也有說不是不想救他根本沒有人可以去支援這個問題我們用數據來講話"},{"start":8599.349,"end":8609.502,"text":"113年的時候我們看到收容所是六萬零多少人人力大概是六千零七十六人表面人力的比例是1比9.97但是我們看到114年"},{"start":8613.426,"end":8615.867,"text":"114年6月份缺了751人人力從60,552人降到5,325人人力惡化比例是1比11.37以今年的4月份來看"},{"start":8634.813,"end":8662.984,"text":"我們的收容人數是已經達到63,688人他超額的比例已經達到官方到4月份他超額的比例就是5.2%那所以在這樣的情況我們又看到114年是4.6的超額113年是飽額所以每一年在增加那這些人力呢我們又跟美國、日本、韓國其他國家來做比例接屋人員我們是明顯明顯的不足你如果"},{"start":8663.664,"end":8682.618,"text":"表面就已經明顯的不足了你如果再扣掉輪休外衣借戶住院借戶接見還有活動等等你必須要去支援那這個數據是更低了所以在這樣的情況之下呢會變成有編制沒支援怎麼辦呢市長"},{"start":8683.593,"end":8710.011,"text":"跟委員報告非常感謝委員真的有注意到我們矯正署目前的基層大家的工作狀況真的非常的辛苦其實事實上跟委員報告他也不是只有矯正署我們現在我們的檢察機關裡面高檢署、地檢署甚至是我們的書記官我們其實因為目前上面我們負責的一個工作上面來講我們非常的多而且也都很認真在做我們的基層都很認真"},{"start":8711.211,"end":8736.12,"text":"這個我們都了解就是說針對這個問題你要怎麼處理所以說在人力的這個部分上我們可能就要跟人總這邊來去看看能不能其實說實在話就是人少錢的部分可能預算的部分環境上的部分市長你講到這個話呢你應該要提出方案因為基層人員很辛苦所以我連數字都跟你說的這麼清楚當葉金鳳這個部長的時候當時檢察官啊"},{"start":8740.362,"end":8769.2,"text":"也沒有助理啊我們到了台中地檢去做考察的時候我們發現這個問題太嚴重了啊這會影響人民的一個權益啊你他不是不做啊他沒辦法做啊 那麼多啊所以助理人員就開始司法院當時也就加入了這個助理人員那是從當時那時候來的所以每一個時間所碰到的問題現在你的人數 介護人員第一線的已經少了六萬多六千多到現在五千多人"},{"start":8770.06,"end":8790.084,"text":"那有什麼原因要去找出來 人家是不願意來報考不願意來做 還是你們沒有提出來你要解決這個問題 因為這不是只有內部的問題會影響整個層面啦 跟問委員報告一下就是說我們現在各單位都有針對人力上面的一個需求跟我們護理在報啦"},{"start":8790.604,"end":8813.256,"text":"包括我看到最近有看到調查局跟高檢署報給我們部裡的人力的需求那矯正署這邊應該也會報他們的人力需求應該也會報 你要請他們報 不是應該也會報因為你數字已經越來越惡化了再來感謝委員其實之前對於我們的輔助人力的一個支持我們也會盡量的這樣我們的一些輔助人力或我們一些的一些方式"},{"start":8813.716,"end":8832.41,"text":"讓我們的工作的部分變得更加的一個讓七成同僚減輕勞力尤其第一線嘛這個部分我們會去做因為第一線你看在監所裡頭他必須要介護就醫因為沒有介護人員所以他沒有辦法出去這影響到生命問題耶所以那個也跟委員報告那也會影響到裡面內部的情緒啊相關因為我們現在那個部裡的那個"},{"start":8833.17,"end":8858.161,"text":"那個預算很多的部分其實人力跟預算部分到時候也拜託委員一定要想辦法因為我們我們要了解我們甚至想到連醫療院所都進入到我們的監所台中第一監嘛對不對所以我們碰過了太多的這樣子的案例你不能影響到整個內部導致鬧街那就很嚴肅的議題而且還打架那這怎麼辦他要求援"},{"start":8859.602,"end":8876.079,"text":"你有編制你得不到資源你看這幾個字讓大家聽起來怎麼辦我們回去會跟矯正署就是說把這個事情跟他們說第一就是說除了人力上的一個增援之外我們也不容許說我們的基層面臨到這樣的一個狀況我們會用我們這個回去就會跟矯正署這邊講看他這個事情整體去盤查"},{"start":8882.205,"end":8910.972,"text":"由這個數字量化告訴你質化告訴你數字告訴你要整體去盤查好不好趕快去盤查盤查出來的數字需要再怎麼樣增加讓大家可以安心好好的在第一線他要得到保障啊對不對他這裡面有的狀況他求援求不到啊支援得不到這不行的趕快去盤查多久時間會盤查出來回去我們就交代矯正署多久時間可以告訴給本席"},{"start":8913.357,"end":8923.864,"text":"這個我們禁訴好嗎 就是那一個月好 一個月盤查出來 趕快去關心不能讓這個數字一直惡化不能再有事件發生 好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 次長請回我們請王洪威委員質詢"},{"start":8942.742,"end":8944.004,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席請我們馮次長好 有請馮次長你好"},{"start":8951.724,"end":8973.009,"text":"市長好 市長我在今天早上有做提案說明那當然我也有針對就是保護我們律師因為前一陣子律師被暴力相向甚至更早的時候曾經害律師因此而喪命那我們覺得律師在執行他的業務的時候我們應該給他合理 應有的保障"},{"start":8973.729,"end":8981.915,"text":"那但是另外一方面就是因為這幾年這個詐騙很行那其實大家都是文詐色變"},{"start":8983.021,"end":9009.383,"text":"那但是呢這幾年我們發現有很多知法犯法的律師事實上呢是參與了詐團不但參與詐談他們甚至呢來做一些主導出謀劃捨因為他們懂法而且他們跟整個的司法體系不管檢察官跟法官都比較熟悉所以還幫助詐談來做就是怎麼樣在遊走法律邊緣"},{"start":9010.504,"end":9032.88,"text":"那這樣子的律師 事實上應該要被嚴懲我想次長應該也同意 對不對尤其最近我有提到 就是甚至這些當他們落網了之後 還是非常囂張就過去在學校裡面 這個律師倫理沒有念好被當 無所謂 還是可以當律師這是很 讓人真的是 很令人髮指那"},{"start":9038.204,"end":9045.33,"text":"剛才比如說許以珍委員也特別提到在過去有一些律師他們涉及協助這些詐團最後其實他的求刑或者他的判定都非常的輕"},{"start":9053.317,"end":9073.009,"text":"那所以我在這邊呢就提出了就是要修正律師法第7條跟第74條這個主要的事呢就是讓我們這些涉及詐騙的這些律師當他被一審被判決有罪的時候事實上就應該做處理"},{"start":9074.75,"end":9099.897,"text":"我剛才在做完這個提案說明之後陳昭志委員在這邊他聽了之後他說他願意支持我就是如同他們在關心有一些涉及性騷的醫師甚至涉及性侵的醫師即便發生了之後呢那他還被保護然後繼續執業甚至依依相護"},{"start":9101.337,"end":9114.725,"text":"已經事實上已經證明確實他有性騷的事實但是呢他仍然是繼續可以去他職業所以會造成下面還有人繼續的被害那所以同樣的"},{"start":9117.307,"end":9127.369,"text":"我們認為對律師也應該做 包含先做除名甚至在他觸及到詐欺洗錢組織犯罪的時候也應該給予這些相關的懲處 也就是說讓他不能夠再繼續執業否則對他來講 因為這個利益實在太大了"},{"start":9141.972,"end":9150.501,"text":"所以我不曉得法務部是不是可以往這樣的一個修法去同意或者去進行這樣的修法"},{"start":9151.52,"end":9171.73,"text":"謝謝委員因為對於律師他有高度的一個工業性的性質所以說當他跟詐團去勾結這件事情事實上我想這個沒有人能夠忍受包括我們很多的這個優秀的律師也認為這些害群之馬都應該被這個嚴處所以說我們目前這一次就是說"},{"start":9172.43,"end":9189.77,"text":"也針對了這一次的修法就是希望說能夠把一些這個因為最近也發生多起的律師詐騙嘛那我們現行法的規定是限於律師涉嫌特定的重大犯罪經檢察官起訴可由這個律師的懲戒但是這些特定的案件喔我們認為說沒有辦法解決現況了就如童委員剛剛提到的"},{"start":9193.354,"end":9209.39,"text":"那也很關心的我們現在很多我們把那個一些要涵蓋說參與組織犯罪那又甚至說一些我們認為說像是蠻可惡的洗錢啊這些類似的部分我們把特定的犯罪刪掉就用最重本刑五年"},{"start":9210.09,"end":9230.08,"text":"這樣的含怪的一個範圍就會很寬那在這個部分上我們也認為說如果說詐騙律師有沒有加入公會有犯罪的行為經法院判處這個一年以上有期徒刑確定後也可以依照律師法第九條不過我要特別提醒譬如說你講說因為要最重本刑五年以上"},{"start":9230.78,"end":9253.979,"text":"那事實上現在呢 律師不但參與 而且是成群結隊的參與現在這個 像在這個 S 它那個交易所就是那個洗錢犯罪裡面 它是一整個的律師團通通涉及那你在組織犯罪裡面 即便它發起或主持其實它的本行都沒有到五年以上"},{"start":9255.36,"end":9271.008,"text":"所以在這裡就是希望能夠在特別是參與詐團然後又成為一個軍師事實上它裡面都是出謀劃策的這些不管是洗錢或者是詐騙能夠"},{"start":9274.437,"end":9283.502,"text":"就是就是提高他的這個懲處讓他不能夠再職業這個方向我認為一定要那另外因為時間關係提醒一下這個是那個我先提醒一件事情就是洗錢"},{"start":9290.266,"end":9293.907,"text":"那我們雖然就是在洗錢防治裡面一直都有宣傳那麼也一直要加強查起但是呢我們現在的這個這個洗錢的案件其實還是一直不停的升高那其中一個就是在通報上面通報上面它的這個罰則非常非常輕"},{"start":9313.991,"end":9317.293,"text":"因為現在洗錢不是只有金融機構 像我們在這個太子集團裡面他去買豪車 他去買豪宅 他去用虛擬貨幣所以這些通報的這些範圍 他不是僅止於金融機構太子集團其實金融機構他們是有負責任 他們通報好幾十次 只是你們都沒有去查緝"},{"start":9336.704,"end":9337.687,"text":"可是問題是像虛擬貨幣機構或者是說這些房屋仲介啦或者是他這個就是"},{"start":9346.482,"end":9373.259,"text":"大量的在買豪車那對他們來講這都是他的業務啊所以他根本不會去做通報所以未來在做這個省錢繁殖的時候不僅僅只是傳統的金融機構的通報而是這些相關月線洗錢的型態實在是太多了我剛剛講就太子集團這是最特殊的所以希望能夠在加強控管這些主要是跟接觸洗錢的這些專業人士也要"},{"start":9376.021,"end":9404.747,"text":"提高他這個通報的責任可不可以好那個跟委員報告就是說我們目前這個提出洗這個洗錢防治法的修正目前在預告中那當然委員有提到那個太子集團的部分銀行通報以後其實調查局非常的積極事實上成果也是豐碩的那我們這個部分上在洗錢這個部分上委員的這樣跟我們的立場上對於這樣都是不能容忍所以我們會盡全力的去做一個查緝那也謝謝委員對我們這個洗錢防治法的一個這個關心謝謝"},{"start":9406.007,"end":9421.698,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏威委員那王宏威委員詢答結束我們現在休息五分鐘那接續再來請徐宇貞委員進行詢答先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9775.868,"end":9791.98,"text":"我們繼續開會,接下來請謝榮介委員來做詢問來,我們司法法師,笑眉眉,心情好,來,歡迎你這樣就對了,喝咖啡,我少不知,敬禮要九十度,來,請我沒有喝咖啡,是你碰的,今天我頭一碰到就讓他喝咖啡算我碰到就對了,這樣就對了,來,好"},{"start":9803.366,"end":9805.947,"text":"主席我先出座有請我們馮城次長主席你好"},{"start":9824.031,"end":9831.834,"text":"我是要向你請教,我前一陣子有問你啦我不知道今天來,我前一陣子要問補充,你補充沒來,你來一陣子要問補充,補充又沒來,又你來我們檢察中心有代理這個問題當然,前一陣子主席也有跟你商討什麼民進黨有在說,這前一陣子以前馬英九就有勒"},{"start":9852.861,"end":9881.618,"text":"其實馬總統那時候是什麼情形下代理的?雞派代理是什麼情形?跟委員報告,他好像辭職啦?辭職嘛,辭職之後有派的代理,也都代一個月跟兩個月,對不對?兩個月,兩個多月所以,在這樣的情形下,你現在再來表達最近發布報告怎麼說?"},{"start":9882.918,"end":9909.208,"text":"如果代理啊 是沒有紀憲的犯罪啊好來 這樣是不是啊 處長我剛才在那裡跟你講說 欸檢察總長 若是在立法院審查通過 他的任期幾年 請教你四年四年嘛 但是代理的檢察總長 沒有任期的犯罪這樣有沒有理"},{"start":9912.622,"end":9940.877,"text":"代理是一個暫時制度暫時啊 但是沒有任期限制這是法務部正職對我的公報喔所以我今天要探討 因為這個阿伯卡就修法是不是本會有必要修法有必要修法因為上面你跟我說的就是說我說你是依古什麼嘛你跟我說是依照古典範圍有的那個 第十一條嘛"},{"start":9942.332,"end":9970.166,"text":"那是 最高檢察署啦 你是跟我說這條 但是那是因為在說這個人失職 或是說他有事情不能事事我支派你代理 這就檢察中了嘛並不是在說 比立法院好多 譬如說今天是你來比提名人 立法院把你好多"},{"start":9971.445,"end":9976.758,"text":"放過之後再來派你做代理這樣你不會覺得很奇怪"},{"start":9978.338,"end":10007.193,"text":"跟委員報告就是說事實上來講我們其實一個機關嘛我那時候也有在講嘛就是說其實機關一旦不管是什麼理由嘛任期到或者是說他因為辭職那他就是機關上他就必須要有一個人來做頭嘛阿不然的話很多的一個事務員都沒辦法處理阿好阿現在就是說代理沒有任期限制阿你現在對我正式說不喔代理沒有任期限制喔"},{"start":10008.254,"end":10037.233,"text":"代理是事務性跟所以可以代六年喔可以代七年喔繼續代下去就好喔繼續行使檢查總長的權利喔委員那個 您提的這個部分齁就是代理的部分因為他指派 我剛剛有跟委員報告嘛他是事務性 還有他是暫時性不對啊 暫時性 事務性 但是你們對我正確說出來你們要不要重新對我公佈"},{"start":10039.004,"end":10063.376,"text":"說這個代理不會超過多久的時間,不會超過一年,或是不會超過半年,你有要這樣宣示嗎?因為這個人事的部分,因為不是我的業務範圍啦你是說對的?但是我們內部有分工嘛,所以這個部分上到目前上面來講,我跟委員講的是說我的理解代理是暫時性跟事務性嘛好啦,那你認為說這個代理沒有機閒的限制,這樣有合理嗎?"},{"start":10068.382,"end":10083.745,"text":"我剛剛已經講了 他是事務性跟暫時性所以如果沒有去這樣限制 你的意思就是說不合理就對了因為我們不會用代理去繞過立法院的同意權不合理嘛 不會繞過啦就不合理嘛 一繼續代理就變不合理嘛"},{"start":10084.728,"end":10091.714,"text":"我們會這個就是說針對於說代理的這個部分因為剛剛你不用這麼客氣啊我告訴你 我要說老闆太虛 要太淒涼如果不然你也會被賠罰"},{"start":10098.868,"end":10122.477,"text":"你只要說一半 大家聽不懂?你認為台立沒有限期 立法院通過的程度有期限四年啊你現在對我說的是台立沒有期限的限制這樣是合理還是不合理?我們不談合理不合理嘛 我現在已經跟委員有說了啦我們說我們這是事務性跟戰事性我現在正式跟你報告"},{"start":10124.38,"end":10133.546,"text":"這種做法非常不符合全體基站檢測官的期待因為檢測總統是要大名稱帖的檢測官因為認為說要用一個台立的潛心美名來行使檢測總統的職務台立多久?不知道如果今天你是立法院同櫃 我知道四檔就夠了萬一你給我打壓 我屯論是四檔而已現在不是"},{"start":10153.738,"end":10162.14,"text":"這個事實上,他可以代理,但是代理沒有機関的判決,這完全沒有合理我今天是要你一個答案,然後我們來透過手法,命定這個法律組織法裡面,我們來把它訂好清澈,代理有多久的機関來"},{"start":10175.962,"end":10198.984,"text":"目前那個代理的期限在這個人事案的這個出現延宕的時候會造成說代理首長的一個頻繁的更替啦人事其實也是調度會困難那我跟委員報告其實喔您剛剛提到的基層檢察官這部分我也了解啦我們目前的那個徐代理總長現在真的是很認真啊"},{"start":10200.084,"end":10220.069,"text":"他現在像非常上述還有我的提起 訴訟上的救濟 人民權益的部分還有一些他業務上打詐 黑金槍毒詐 他都跑到很前面所以我跟委員報告我沒有正義的工作對啦 有時候就已經認真在做這個正常的工作我是正義這個政策和代理沒有機閒這是完全我們聽不下去所以要求你今天一個表態的意義一個態度 因為我"},{"start":10229.83,"end":10241.056,"text":"經過你們的答詢本席可以來推動修法是不是這樣因為你們有發表啊對外公開發布代理沒有期限的限制啊"},{"start":10242.166,"end":10269.013,"text":"跟委員報告喔 結果我剛剛有提到了就是說如果明定代理的期限喔其實人事案會出現延宕的時候會造成這個代理首長會一直換所以我不能明定啊你讓我順利 讓我變成說代理可以延續沒有限期 繼續待了我們不會這樣繞過要讓他請你煮食飯我們基本上講了 代理是一個暫時性跟事務性跟委員我們已經講了 就是說"},{"start":10269.853,"end":10280.658,"text":"沒關係啦 我今天問你沒有答案 我問保證還是一樣沒有答案啦 我會訴諸公關啦我現在請教你一個問題 就是說這班的獨駕酒駕大家都很重視啦為什麼法務部要針對獨駕酒駕 你要把獨駕跟酒駕分開的意思是什麼"},{"start":10293.033,"end":10313.824,"text":"跟委員報告 其實毒價跟酒價它的內涵其實是不太一樣因為本身來講 喝酒它不犯法 但吸毒它本身就是犯法的但是刑法第85之3 它的意思是標準什麼不能安全駕駛不能安全駕駛 我請問你 酒價是不是不能安全駕駛"},{"start":10314.824,"end":10325.853,"text":"酒駕當然也是會有造成不能安全駕駛的狀況獨駕也是不能安全駕駛但是它的非難性是有一點不一樣的不一樣你們法務要修你現在給我說酒駕跟獨駕的刑責分開"},{"start":10332.901,"end":10338.783,"text":"台灣阿嬤聽不懂 酒醉開車弄死人 大家覺得他絕大惡極你現在說 吃毒的開車弄死人 把胸部痛 酒醉開車弄死人的胸部輕這我告訴你發不發的 在形象上會受傷"},{"start":10351.159,"end":10365.125,"text":"謝謝委員提醒喔 因為基本上這個獨駕這件事情最近因為造成了非常多的一個我覺得社會上的傷亡 大家都很難過啦我想委員也對這個事情其實是 我跟你講喔 不是這樣喔你現在是酒駕比較輕喔 獨駕比較重喔 你要分開喔"},{"start":10373.615,"end":10385.928,"text":"但是酒駕的農事人會比較多喔 你聽到沒有他的基本上就是說 酒駕的一個狀況 他跟獨駕的這個狀況的評價上所以你的意思就是說 給吃酒農事的比較不夠 給吃土的農事的比較不夠所以 吃土的要噴比較多 吃酒的不用噴比較多"},{"start":10396.559,"end":10420.094,"text":"也不是這麼說 基本上如果是酒駕或者是獨駕 不能安全駕駛都是同樣於譴責 而且不可以原諒的 不能容忍的那只是說我們單純在做法義上的一個侵害上吸毒它本身還是犯罪所以加起來它當然就是會更多所以我告訴你 本色在這裡提醒你你如果是這樣分開 不符合我們台灣人對司法正義的期待這第一第二 我在這裡最好請教你這個問題"},{"start":10426.991,"end":10435.516,"text":"本席有提案 就是針對獨駕和酒駕十年來再犯再犯 再弄死人可以判處死刑 我請問你您有支持死刑嗎 法務部的立場有支持死刑嗎不是這個案 就是說您有支持死刑嗎"},{"start":10455.74,"end":10465.991,"text":"執行的部分我們現在這個法律上都還是有規定啊你們有支持嗎?法務部的態度有支持嗎?法務部就依法執行啊如果有任何...依法執行我看還沒看你們法治規的"},{"start":10468.758,"end":10475.784,"text":"因為生命權它畢竟是一個非常嚴正的一個事情所以我們會逐案的審查啦那目前上面來講還沒有呈報本部的案件嘛最高檢我們會這個尊重就是針對酒駕跟毒駕啦十年內再犯又再次撞死人啦"},{"start":10495.86,"end":10507.187,"text":"我們有針對那個再犯的部分再加重一個刑據啦這個部分我們目前上面的法條討論的部分是定的部分就是說它有集據上的部分我們現在的那個是"},{"start":10524.693,"end":10543.679,"text":"無期徒刑嘛 最重是無期徒刑無期徒刑嘛 阿無期徒刑 我若能夠施刑 您有要支持嗎本身需要您的支持 因為社會的烏鱗也期待您支持我們對於重懲獨駕這個部分是支持但是高方移要判施刑很困難"},{"start":10545.734,"end":10570.568,"text":"你們可以這樣因為有定死刑你們還可以救出死刑嗎委員我們基本上他有兩個部分第一我們的刑度設計上他有一個級距因為他那個部分上還是把他當成是故意的獨駕造成的過失的一個死亡這樣的類型這是叫加重結果犯我跟委員再報告一下你要吃毒精精你是清蒸的"},{"start":10571.408,"end":10575.112,"text":"所以如果是跑到故意殺人的時候我們就會用到刑法271條殺人罪那我們之前那個土層的那一件就是用到殺人的因為他已經不再是單純的獨駕"},{"start":10591.391,"end":10617.392,"text":"所以檢測官人為嚴重的情形 他如果可以用故意殺人罪來起訴這樣就可以有救出私刑的空間就對了你的意思是這樣所以本省這條修法我們因為是符合級距啦 但我們尊重 我們很感謝委員對於這個獨駕的一個這個重懲跟我們本部的這個態度我知道你們想要重懲 但是你們的法律定律不夠重啊"},{"start":10618.762,"end":10643.667,"text":"應該 因為他的那個結構上 他跟故意殺人 免得這個作干犯科基都有床堂好閃嗎其實是不會啦 因為委員我們像我們最近對於這個預防性羈押 獨駕的預防性羈押還有獨駕這個 就是說如果造勢 自傷自死這部分我們都是重塑重演本席記者你回去 檢測中"},{"start":10647.898,"end":10658.161,"text":"大陸沒有期限過去這樣的發表重新對外又再一個說明大陸沒有期限這種說明可以說是很難說服台灣人全體的台灣人像你還沒中或是你們"},{"start":10667.645,"end":10670.366,"text":"我回去會把委員的意見就是帶回部裡面就是說會把委員的這個意見跟部裡面這個就是帶回去"},{"start":10696.008,"end":10710.192,"text":"這個部分上我們回去會請那個就是他們競訴去兩禮拜來把本席答覆可以嗎不然你回去我都沒有說我也不知道你有說沒有這樣可以你們兩禮拜來都沒辦法我們做書面報告好了好 你三禮拜來給本席一份書面的說明好不好好感謝你謝謝委員"},{"start":10721.685,"end":10740.658,"text":"好,謝謝謝龍介委員,我看都給了整個,謝謝,感謝,這個敬禮九十度,很好,很好這個獨駕、久駕,這個社會期待,這個嚴懲,然後來做一個威嚇,這個我相信社會有共識啦但是獨駕至死,事實會要拉到死刑"},{"start":10743.581,"end":10772.7,"text":"再犯要不要拉到死刑這個國民黨應該內部先先把這個意見深去做一個整合啦這個各個政黨會態度會有所不同民進黨裡面也有要求很嚴刑峻罰重懲用威嚇的一個手段威嚇我相信大家都認為啦應該把刑度再來拉高是不是拉到死刑這個可能就討論的一個地方我們也這個謝委員這樣的一個要求評估的部分"},{"start":10773.842,"end":10777.912,"text":"如果要給他的就給整個委員會裡面的委員"},{"start":10786.264,"end":10804.332,"text":"接下來請傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員不在鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭靜淺委員不在洪孟凱委員來做詢問"},{"start":10809.98,"end":10810.842,"text":"這些年輕人還有誰來好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們次長請馮次長"},{"start":10822.25,"end":10838.558,"text":"好 次長 感謝我想今天先肯定我們召委排我們律師法的相關的一個修正其實今天的一個修正案不管是35條 不管是我們74條我覺得很明顯有一個態度跟想法我們向社會大眾以及向律師們傳達我們絕對支持保護力挺99.9%"},{"start":10843.94,"end":10870.766,"text":"合格專業認真為台灣社會服務的律師所以我們要給他最強的保障就是不能讓律師在有相關進行他的職務的時候被遭受到攻擊所以這是35條我們修法的一個精神所以我們希望用這樣的態度讓所有律師知道我們當律師的後盾但是對於極少數害群之馬運用自己的專業但是反而是幫不管是詐騙集團 犯罪集團來開脫的這一些"},{"start":10874.076,"end":10894.654,"text":"真的是不孝分子那很抱歉你真的不應該擁有律師的資格如果說你用你的專業去幫犯罪集團開脫而且不是正常的這個答辯而是用這樣子的一個非法的手段好但我想請教一下比較在法令上或說實務上有一些漏洞是因為"},{"start":10895.802,"end":10914.077,"text":"律師利用專業幫詐團設計畫素或規避偵查協助洗錢等等那可能會比司法的傷害比一般人的涉嫌詐騙更加嚴重可是這一些案件往往過去是還起訴 易科罰金等等造成在律師法上未能真正的停止職業或是除名"},{"start":10914.597,"end":10925.855,"text":"那會不會因為這樣子反而讓律師有恃無恐他就去做因為到最後他得到的處罰也許沒有那麼相符這一點次長你在實務上以及我們相關怎麼樣能夠防堵這樣的一個漏洞"},{"start":10927.435,"end":10945.026,"text":"律師法涉及不法行為的這個具體個案其實我們都會從嚴處理那目前這一個也就是說因為律師的這樣的一個部分他有些涉及到的這樣的案子裡面他有時候是比較屬於洩密類的那個法定型本來就比較低"},{"start":10945.946,"end":10975.266,"text":"所以說我們目前上面來講而且加上有一些類型 犯罪類型上面來講我們原本的這個74條第一項還有第7條的一個規定那是律師犯罪重本刑五年以上但是他有匡 貪污 行賄 侵占詐欺 背信最輕一年以上所以這樣的狀況就有可能造成律師覺得說我參與組織犯罪可能不會那我今天洗錢可能也未必重那所以我們現在我們在這個條文上我們把它"},{"start":10976.367,"end":11004.529,"text":"把這個歷史的部分取消掉就用成說他最重本刑只要他上面的那個刑度有規定到五年以上的我們這個部分就通通認為說就認定是符合這個標準就可以停止了那如果萬一他還有這一個就是說還有一個部分是屬於致死跟致重傷的這個部分也是最重本刑五年以上我們也認為是可以然後所以說在這樣子的話我們法務部就可以針對於律師的一個執照去做停止這個核發案律師執照做停止現在是法務部認定還是要公會"},{"start":11005.247,"end":11027.646,"text":"所以我們這邊是由我們法務部來做處理所以本席再一次強調的是說我們不允許少數的害群之馬用這樣子的一個身份然後反而是幫詐騙集團開脫所以我們要把這個漏洞補起來那第二個部分我想先請教最近這個中部地區發生校園司機性侵血統的一個事件"},{"start":11028.106,"end":11055.621,"text":"那現在社會高度專業高度爭議但是在這一個案件裡面其實是過去這一個司機駕駛他其實是有性犯罪記錄可是他在應徵校車司機的時候可能有一些校車司機他也要有良民證的一個申請但他卻居然是不是能夠申請到良民證而接觸到跟學童的比較近距離的一個工作而導致於他後續發生這個狀況那我想請教以法務部現在的一個"},{"start":11056.681,"end":11074.849,"text":"立場或觀點來講涉嫌性自主的案件的人員如果說緩刑期滿或是符合法定條件可以取得良民證那這樣子會不會失去把關的一個功能怎麼樣能夠把這個漏網給補起來我們那個良民證的部分是不是警政署這邊警政署 來"},{"start":11078.837,"end":11103.268,"text":"因為在這一個案件裡面其實大家會划籃當然它又涉及到它有HIV也因此大家才會覺得說更覺得說離譜嘛可是我們現在講是說譬如說校車司機或是說校務人員等等的過去我們也是這校園安全網那照理講它可能在應徵的時候都需要有一些相關的資格可是它居然沒有被揭露說它過去曾經犯過涉嫌性自阻"},{"start":11104.775,"end":11123.706,"text":"在良民證的部分只要他有刑案記錄沒有被塗銷我們會列印出來他是有刑案前科的那至於他印證的部分是什麼樣的一個標準這個我們目前是不曉得是 但在這一個案件裡面我現在看到我現在手邊的資料他是講是說他是可以有辦法拿到空白良民證"},{"start":11125.114,"end":11153.556,"text":"有沒有瞭解這個部分我們在會後再瞭解應該是在我們的良民證刑案紀錄裡面如果有資料的話列印出來就是會有前科是那所以說現在他或者是說在這一個嫌犯他過去的一個性犯罪紀錄是不是他緩刑還是說符合法定條件所以說他其實他曾經有犯過或是有這樣子的一個紀錄可是他沒有在良民證上面有紀錄也因此才會造成說有一個漏洞"},{"start":11153.996,"end":11181.073,"text":"那本席今天因為這個案件來提出來我想這可能要請法務部跟警政署這邊後續來去做檢討這一個制度上面是不是有缺失的地方因為對於普羅大眾來講一般人我們沒有任何的刑案記錄的時候其實我們很直覺的認為只要你有良民證你就是乾淨清白的但會不會過去其實有這樣的一個記錄那如果說我們能夠用這樣的一個剔除的話不要讓良民證變成是他的一個保護傘嗎"},{"start":11182.054,"end":11188.084,"text":"我想在這一個案件上面是可以請警政署跟法務部後續再來去做研究好不好這一個研究可以"},{"start":11189.79,"end":11212.006,"text":"後續討論給本席一個相關的資料是一個月內給本席可以嗎是好感謝那最後次長我再跟您就教一下這也是剛剛謝榮介委員有提到獨駕致死的一個部分但我先再請教一下因為今天司法院是我們行政廳廳長來嘛可能跟廳長沒有那麼直接的一個業務關聯但是次長"},{"start":11215.86,"end":11242.939,"text":"獨從駕車撞斷我們所長的這個案件第一時間國人划然是什麼因為他被無保請回那後來我們支持法務部趕快抗告高等法院也才撤回他的一個這個案件也因此他在一次審理之後就被羈押了好 那我們請教第一次跟第二次我們到底提供什麼樣不同的資料讓法官可以第一次無保請回第二次預防性羈押"},{"start":11244.799,"end":11263.262,"text":"是因為民眾大家民怨沸騰法官看到了還是我們有提供什麼樣關鍵性的資料讓法官覺得說這個人非羈押不可我們第二次的時候更補上了尿液的一個鑑定尿液的鑑定對 讓法官更加的覺得說就是說他在這個生壓上面來做一個更加"},{"start":11263.542,"end":11285.701,"text":"所以那這樣子 次長我覺得這個這就變成是我們在檢方這一段的問題喔就是說第一次的時候沒有尿液鑑定是因為尿液鑑定我們來不及提供還是說我們有什麼樣的顧慮不然的話如果第一次我們就提出尿液鑑定的話可能法官就不會判無保請回所以我們現在就是希望說我們用那個唾液的部分就是說我們現在也會就是"},{"start":11286.701,"end":11307.673,"text":"這種唾液的方式也成為一個檢驗的一個部分讓法官可以支持我們那我們同時也跟委員報告我們也會請我們的警察單位在執行的時候也不單單是只看那個試劑的那個部分他也要去做一些紀錄上說這個人有沒有因為吸完毒以後有抽搐或東倒吸完產生幻覺一些周邊的東西可以讓法院做更詳盡更精準的一個判斷"},{"start":11308.513,"end":11332.583,"text":"是 因為在這一個案件上面其實本席就已經點出來了當時警政署給媒體的資料跟我們本席看到的資料是這一個人其實是我們的毒品列管人口過去就已經有吸食毒品的記錄並且有公共傷害的記錄所以才會被所長他們盯上特別要去盤查那他才會逃逸 駕車逃逸衝撞然後造成所長斷腿"},{"start":11333.823,"end":11358.371,"text":"那法官居然講的是說他沒有毒駕記錄他有吸毒記錄沒有毒駕記錄是因為我們過去可能在駕車的時候沒有攔檢檢驗他有沒有吸毒嘛但是他有吸毒記錄是事實嘛那還有他有講說很離譜說他要跟當事人要表達和解的意願大家想說要怎麼和解結果原來是他拿兩盒水果然後半夜衝進人家病床"},{"start":11359.329,"end":11382.464,"text":"我覺得這非常離譜嘛好 可是在這件事情上面這就是本席想要探討的重點為什麼會第一次第二次除了個案法官可能有不同認定但我們都希望法官的標準是一致的而如果獨從獨駕都已經有前科並且都已經衝撞我們執法人員穿制服的執法人員都撞斷腿了還不羈押"},{"start":11383.385,"end":11411.738,"text":"那就是輕重那就是縱容我們跟委員報告事實上來講我們高檢署在5月26號已經喊請各地檢署針對獨駕案件要積極的去做申請羈押那我們目前的這個就是說針對這樣的生壓的部分法院的部分他大概在七成的準壓率如果是致死至重傷那個部分之前我有跟委員報告是在九成那我們這個部分上我們也會充分的讓法院了解到說"},{"start":11412.538,"end":11440.514,"text":"像委員跟社會大眾跟我們法務部對於獨駕這件事情是多麼的不能容忍所以也希望說在預防性質押之間司法院這邊可以給我們支持那因為事實上來講他有些的這樣的一個個體具體的個案上他就不是的那麼的明顯因為尤其那個代謝很快所以我們現在也有跟警政署跟還有我們的就是說就是執法的單位大家一起來研議怎麼樣能夠用最"},{"start":11441.209,"end":11460.718,"text":"有最迅速像唾液這種的馬上就可以看得出來這樣法官也能夠比較能夠支持我們所以讓大家社會大眾上不要因為說獨駕就無保請回萬一再撞人怎麼辦這個我們也不能容忍獨駕無保請回其實它就是一個不定時炸彈它在路上都是不定時炸彈另外"},{"start":11461.258,"end":11481.696,"text":"用唾液來篩檢 證明他有吸毒這個是明確的科學證據以及本席在提醒因為上一次部長來也有講到我們了解這個狀況是過去毒價跟現在最大的不同是因為現在吸食毒品的門檻大幅下降過去我們電影裡面畫面是要打針"},{"start":11482.637,"end":11501.363,"text":"要用針孔施打的方式但現在是用電子菸當載具也因此如果說在這個車輛裡面有搜尋到電子菸或相關的毒品吸食器具某種程度上你就要把它認定配合那個唾液的篩檢就要認定它有可能是邊開邊吸"},{"start":11503.684,"end":11526.595,"text":"邊開邊吸的獨駕比過去我們講說酒後飲宴完畢之後再開車的酒駕這兩者樣態上面更加的嚴重邊開邊吸那是更加的嚴重我想這是本席要提醒也請我們檢方這邊好好的針對這幾個證據未來該補強的要補強才能夠真真正正不要任何漏網之魚好不好 以上謝謝"},{"start":11528.629,"end":11534.592,"text":"好 謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢 接下來請陳冠廷委員來做詢答我們請法務部跟司法院請馮市長還有吳廷長"},{"start":11554.568,"end":11568.835,"text":"委員好我先請教廳長好了廳長這個今天諮詢之前我有特別也詢問這個法務部的相關意見那認為這個是比較關心的是跟司法院相關的業務那我這邊來把這個簡報來簡單一下來到下一頁"},{"start":11574.065,"end":11590.978,"text":"在韓國針對重大的嫌犯或者是說重大的暴力性侵還有違反到國家安全公共利益的話他們會讓重大嫌犯的照片或者是資訊公開"},{"start":11592.816,"end":11610.234,"text":"在日本也有公開的這個手配制度也就是說如果他嚴重違反到公共利益可能是暴力案可能是對公共安全有可能造成公共安全重大危害的或者是性侵或者是以上皆是的這種狀況那他們會公開相關的資訊"},{"start":11613.317,"end":11639.644,"text":"那當然在台灣我們是民主國家我們是有相關的無罪推定但是無罪推定它不能夠無限上綱到已經有明顯事證會造成重大公共利益的危害的時候我們還是不揭露相關的訊息導致一再的有被害者出現那我就不用再重述這個重述來去敘述之前這個各個不同的案例因為其實每一個案例都是追星之痛"},{"start":11640.544,"end":11649.923,"text":"我們就拿台南的這個狀況其實這個狀況已經接近現刑犯那是因為被建議勇為的嫌犯來第一時間來去致死"},{"start":11650.834,"end":11679.809,"text":"那後來我們看到現在這個新聞的畫面請問到底誰是嫌犯根本無法標示清楚因為為什麼無法標示清楚因為嫌犯他是被馬賽克他被嚴重的打馬讓他面容不能足以識別反倒是旁邊的刑警他是完全的揭示在民眾的面前到時候還會被人家懷疑說到底是誰才是犯案者其實這對很多辦案人員也好是非常不公平的那對這個社區來說也是很不安全的"},{"start":11680.129,"end":11705.55,"text":"因為在他被逮捕之前在他被這個尋案抓到之前他可能會不斷的再犯那因為我們沒有相關的警示方式那導致我們就變成讓這些性侵犯這些重大的暴力案殺人案或者是連續殺人犯他們能夠在這個這個各個地方來繼續串討那我認為這會嚴重影響到這個公共安全也就是說在無罪推定的原則之下跟"},{"start":11706.631,"end":11732.071,"text":"這一個公共利益跟公共安全之上我們必須要有一個平衡點那韓國韓國是有特定重大犯罪嫌疑人的個人信息公開法案這個公開法案他是可以在決定公開法案信息的30天之內有關部門他是可以公布偵查部門拍攝的嫌疑人大頭照如果有必要他甚至可以去主動來去揭示甚至給這些媒體"},{"start":11732.881,"end":11759.906,"text":"所以說這就是公共利益公共安全跟無罪推論之間的平衡點所以這邊我想要請教廖司法院你們的意見是什麼謝謝委員我想首先要先講就是說這個議題絕對是可以值得討論的一個這個司法行政的一個議題這個我先確認那第二個就是說其實各個法治先進的國家其實也有不同的規範那這也可以證明就是說其實這個議題它沒有絕對的"},{"start":11762.146,"end":11787.403,"text":"行或不行那一定有他要考量的點那站在司法院的角度因為司法院要負責的是起訴以後的審理階段因為在偵查階段的部分是屬於甲官有他的偵查不公開或他偵查的必要性的相關考慮這個可能司法院這邊比較沒有辦法去智慧去表示意見但是審理起訴之後要不要公開他的長相"},{"start":11788.463,"end":11802.534,"text":"這個就要考慮到兩件事情第一個就是當然委員也提到了無罪推定當然這個無罪推定絕對不是無限上綱這我們也肯認第二個要特別要注意的就是有沒有會不會影響到公正的審判"},{"start":11803.394,"end":11825.982,"text":"那一旦這個長相公開之後對於這個在已經在法院進行的審理會不會產生了一個影響法院審判或者是影響當事人辯護的這個正當性或者他的這個正當的這個訴訟權益這個是我們必須要去考量那另外還要額外提醒的是譬如說像性侵害案件它常常發生在"},{"start":11826.522,"end":11850.034,"text":"被告跟被害人是有一定關係的也就是說當我們公開了被告的資料嫌犯的身份的時候同時也可能就已經公開了被害人的資料我都理解因為剛才我們先一部分來談我們剛才談的是不是無條件公佈我們剛才談的是包含韓國的法案是符合重大公共危險犯罪情節重大證據相當明確並且"},{"start":11852.375,"end":11879.617,"text":"有國民有知情權可以防止再犯的幾項前提有前提要清楚我們不是無限上綱但同時我們也不可能能夠完全把它摒除摒除到影響到公共利益跟影響到公共安全所以這是有界限的所以我們現在提出來不是說我一定要有哪一種方案而是要有方案這個方案它有它的必需條件它的必要條件是什麼那我們再去執行也就是說如果是隨機方案的話它就沒有固定現象"},{"start":11880.658,"end":11896.026,"text":"就沒有所謂的你可以暗圖鎖計然後影響到被害者因為它是隨機方案那這個是不是可以納入也就是說各個不同的型態我們有幕僚機構司法院有法務部有你們必須要來很釐清嘛釐清之後我們才可以往上再走一步啊我們沒有說"},{"start":11897.586,"end":11925.091,"text":"這個無罪推定那我們就全部都不要也不能因為說只會有幾個個案那我們就說全部的這個面容都把它全部揭示因為確實是有冤假案的這個可能狀況會出現所以說這個包含重大利益跟公共安全以及事後的名譽回簿跟國家賠償它是要同時被訂定的但是我們不能夠不檢討啊因為不斷的出現在類似這樣的狀況但是這些重大的暴力案殺人案性侵犯等等的他們是被保護的"},{"start":11925.911,"end":11928.944,"text":"也就是說加害者他是被完全的保護的甚至是在"},{"start":11930.126,"end":11956.025,"text":"還沒有被逮捕之前他們還是繼續在犯案的台北市過去的這些狀況幼兒園的狀況我們已經提過了如果你沒有辦法把這個加害者來揭示沒關係那你有相關的這些法律上的修正案也要去做啊這不能夠說法務部說是司法院的司法院說是法務部的那請法務部來可不可以簡單回應剛才這個司法院有提到的這屬於法務部的範圍的你們可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":11957.557,"end":11972.406,"text":"我們那個在信訪法的52條規定第44條跟第50條的被告在判決有罪確定加害人這個逃亡或藏匿通緝者該警察機關可以將他的身份交以勘宰那我跟委員報告事實上以我們"},{"start":11973.887,"end":11995.443,"text":"檢查機關在偵辦案件的時候因為我們第一有偵查不公開的限制第二因為他有無罪的一個推定的一個狀況我們不能在偵查中我們就去幫人家認定說他這樣去公佈那這樣萬一法院這邊判無罪的話我們這個人的一個人權保障會有很大的一個影響所以我們如果是建議是說他到後面後端上面他已經被"},{"start":11996.464,"end":12016.176,"text":"確認說他已經是有這樣的狀況的話依照我們現在的那個衛福法或司法院這邊也可能可以考慮說在什麼一個時機認為說他的一個這樣的一個機制已經是可以的部分所以在法務部的角度上面來看我們可能會採取的就是說盡量是說在真實能夠被發現以後才去做這件事情"},{"start":12017.277,"end":12040.274,"text":"會請你能夠不管是法務部還是司法院能夠參考一下日方跟韓國甚至是美國的這些標準因為這些就是就剛才司法院有提到的它不是絕對是或不是它一定是有其中我們可以找到一個平衡點既能夠維護公共利益的狀況之下那也是要"},{"start":12041.855,"end":12057.044,"text":"我最推定但是老實說我們看到許許多多的許多司法案件在未經確認之前它不是暴力案它不是性侵案它是比較複雜的商業糾紛商業訴訟案可是媒體還是把他們的照片都公佈"},{"start":12058.064,"end":12078.862,"text":"只因為他們是名人 或者是只因為他們覺得這個是可以公佈所以我們的這個標準是很浮動的 是很浮動的那請問無罪推定的話 那很多這個重要的這些商業句子他們等等的 他們也是在無罪之前 他們的照片也都被公佈啊還不斷的被追逐採訪啊"},{"start":12080.163,"end":12105.068,"text":"那這樣子真正的即時性的對公共利益公共秩序有重大影響的比方之前的有一個高鐵的這一個高鐵要預謀的炸彈客那一位律師剛好跟今天的主題有點類似那他在被定罪之前如果只是這個是重大的公共公安耶那當初如果如果是在未經審判之前未經甚至未經起訴"},{"start":12106.548,"end":12129.796,"text":"那你又不公佈他的相關的這個農貿的話那如果他不在高鐵而在台鐵犯案呢所以說公共利益跟公共安全是絕對是有他的平衡點在的跟委員講不是不行 這個我們會審慎來去做就是如果他真的在社會上有重大利益上面來講我覺得那正常不公開他也有例外規定嘛所以我們在這個部分上會去採取一個比較嚴格的我們再請法務部可不可以來去思考 就因為"},{"start":12131.212,"end":12149.281,"text":"你們有幕僚機構我們沒有那我們提出來的是民眾非常關心的這個議題但是我們同時也不是要無限的來去上綱我們也不是說一定這樣就是對那當然是在法律的這個平衡的狀況之下來把它擴大因為如果韓國日本跟美國的部分國家那基於公共利益"},{"start":12149.781,"end":12167.347,"text":"他們是可以把甚至許多美國許多州他是將警方的這個公開記錄在重大刑案通緝案件或者不是通緝案件之前需要社會辯論嫌疑人的狀況之下就直接公佈相關的姓名照片跟犯罪諮詢請求民眾協助其實都是有的"},{"start":12168.027,"end":12179.069,"text":"但是剛剛幾個正常不公開第二個性侵害保護性侵害的這個相關的法條這之間又要保護被害者當然被害者特別是要去我們不希望"},{"start":12180.205,"end":12206.465,"text":"把這個痛苦轉移在被害者而是應該要把這些痛苦是給加害者的怎麼會把它變成是被害者的痛苦呢特別是在隨機的狀況之下隨機案的話它是無從去做追擊的隨機的狀況之下它當然是可以去公佈的這個這些一定都有例外的這個拜託整理一下這個來回應民眾的這些討論不然這些案件不斷的在出現對民眾來講非常的不公平好 謝謝"},{"start":12210.629,"end":12213.571,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員的詢問接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在我們所有登記的委員都已發言完畢 詢問結束"},{"start":12229.102,"end":12258.024,"text":"委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料以及書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交各位委員及本會那委員蔡其昌審發會吳宗憲 傅坤祺所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那這個本次會議要結束以前 實在要講幾句話司法法制委員會召委坐在這個地方是最痛苦的"},{"start":12258.764,"end":12266.086,"text":"其實我來建議啦,我來建議啦,你像我們,你像馮城市長,我們以前讀書的時候,刑法都只有到35章啦,現在有36章,就變成又一個那個妨礙電腦使用罪章啦,我給你們建議你們為刑法分擇100條,到363條。"},{"start":12279.37,"end":12297.597,"text":"363條要告訴哪一條就沒有,就是說每一個犯罪的類型,你說故意犯罪加重結果犯,這樣說清楚了,不然大家動不動都死刑死刑那這個其實都沒有辦法去做一個區分的,像我們一直"},{"start":12298.797,"end":12301.2,"text":"聽下來 說到羈押的部分 羈押大家都知道要保全被告 保全證據還有羈押條件 原因 其實還要考量必要性一個罪犯來了以後 全部都給你承認了 全部給你懺悔了"},{"start":12313.834,"end":12342.642,"text":"你說除非有那個預防性劑啊不然你說一定要情緒發洩一定要關於別人的事這個都沒有解釋清楚我坐在這個地方很痛苦你們也不敢回答因為可能時間的一個原因立法院其實就是常常都是一個利用這個舞台然後做一個政治性的發言政治性的提案這很正常啦這個可以博得媒體的眼球但問題是你們我期待你們也講清楚了"},{"start":12342.742,"end":12368.258,"text":"喔 不然這個召委坐在這個地方 太痛苦了談的一些委員的詢問 我又不能去講話嘛但是要結束以前 做這樣的 我覺得你們可以一次性跟我請測 幫忙一下立法院來上上課也不錯啦那本次會議我們進行到此 我們就結束啦議程討論事項所列的兩案 做如下的決議均另定期繼續審查 現在上會 謝謝大家"},{"start":12382.819,"end":12390.627,"text":"謝謝大家收看,下次見!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}