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稅出部分第二十三款第一項國家科學及技術委員會除第一目的第一節佔照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整外其餘均照列本項通過決議一一四項第二項照列本項通過決議六項第三項照列本項通過決議五項第四項"},{"start":1506.385,"end":1533.439,"text":"南部科學園區管理局除第二幕第一節佔照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再請調整外區域均照列本項通過決議七項二一五年度專案政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案審查完畢審查結果如下業務計劃應依基金來源以用途審查結果隨同調整基金來源基金"},{"start":1534.912,"end":1561.487,"text":"增列300萬元改列改列為534億7823萬9千元基金用途照列本期剩餘增列300萬元改列為300萬元結繳公戶無列數 補辦預算無列數通過決議24項三 醫護年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預算案審查完畢 審查結果如下"},{"start":1564.329,"end":1574.418,"text":"1.業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等向這審查結果隨同調整2.業務收支均照例"},{"start":1576.342,"end":1603.204,"text":"絕繳公庫淨額無列數轉投租計劃無列數固定資產建設改良擴充策略國庫增波基金額策略補班預算無列數通過決議事項是15年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案審查完略你據審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時有樓召集委員聽委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":1605.627,"end":1619.381,"text":"國家災害防救科技中心一五年度預算書案業務計畫應依業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果順從調整業務總支支照列"},{"start":1626.235,"end":1641.643,"text":"結繳公庫金額無列數轉投資計畫無列數固定資產建設改良擴充造列資金運用應依業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項之審查結果隨同調整通過決議項"},{"start":1643.581,"end":1656.273,"text":"五一五年度行政法人國家太空中心預算案審查完略拟據審查報告提前院會公決故需交由黨團協商院會討論時郵樓召集委員聽委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":1657.332,"end":1674.179,"text":"国家太空中心一五年度预算书案业务计划应应业务收支固定资产建设改良扩充及资金运用等项制审查结果随同调整业务收支均造类固定资产建设改良扩充无略数国库增幅基金额无略数"},{"start":1675.977,"end":1692.262,"text":"資金運用應益業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項之審查結果隨同調整通過決議三項六對委員質詢要求提供相關資料後為其答覆部分請相關機關盡速與書面答覆七在不影響文藝前提下授權醫師人員"},{"start":1694.002,"end":1717.505,"text":"一一五年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商這範例整理八中央政府一一五年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案行政院主管行政院國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":1718.413,"end":1744.196,"text":"一五年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心及國家太空中心預算案全部審查完畢下午二十三時分討論事項繼續審查一五年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案等兩案決議一一五年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案審查完畢審查結果如下稅務部分"},{"start":1745.339,"end":1756.876,"text":"第二款第九項照例第三款第六項照例本項通過決議三項第四款第十項照例本項通過決議兩項第五款第二項照例本項通過決議一項"},{"start":1758.663,"end":1775.552,"text":"第七款第十項照例稅出部分第二款第五項照例本項通過決議九十八項二中央一五年度專案政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案審查完略審查結果如下"},{"start":1777.866,"end":1797.113,"text":"業務計畫 應依業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整業務收支均照列 結繳公庫照列 轉投資計畫無列數固定資產建設改良擴充照列 國庫增波基金額無列數通過決議八項"},{"start":1799.099,"end":1827.599,"text":"三、對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料後未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以順便答覆四、在不影響文藝前提下授權醫事人員依115年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理五、中央115年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案及國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完畢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1830.086,"end":1833.875,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1836.355,"end":1863.173,"text":"在场委员未答议决人数三人议事录稍后再行确定本日会议的议程是邀请教育部政务次长张亮万坚列席就校事会议及教师辅导管教制度与儿少相关权益探讨进行专题报告并备质询首先我们来介绍在场委员陈培宇委员"},{"start":1867.096,"end":1888.266,"text":"我们介绍与会的官员教育部政务次长张料万坚教育部国民及学前教育署署长彭复元署长卫生福利部保护服务司司长郭采荣郭司长"},{"start":1890.191,"end":1903.197,"text":"其余列席的机关代表请参阅名单不再逐一介绍并列入公报记录现在进行报告请教育部张亮万监次长报告时间是五分钟"},{"start":1909.472,"end":1927.842,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好本次受邀列席貴委員會進行專題報告僅就校師會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討提出報告那麼108年教師法修正是以增進教師"},{"start":1928.863,"end":1956.203,"text":"教學品質維護學生權益為核心目標並增訂第29條授權訂定相關程序規範本部據此訂定高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法作為保障兒少權益及提升教學品質的重要制度基礎那麼因應實務的運作情形本部在115年1月12號修正解聘辦法及考核辦法"},{"start":1956.903,"end":1981.362,"text":"那麼重點包括建立青獅溝通預防機制健全檢舉案件受理的程序刪除匿名檢舉建立案件分流以及新增輔助人參與等那麼此外為了落實新制本次修正同步強化了配套措施包括了辦理相關宣導研習製作受理流程圖QA懶人包提供實務現場運用參考"},{"start":1983.604,"end":2002.232,"text":"又為了保障教師權益在115年5月13日修正公布教師法第25條明定教師於暫時停聘接受調查後如最終未受解聘或回復聘任者補發停聘期間本薪及學術研究加給"},{"start":2003.212,"end":2025.278,"text":"進一步來強化教師的權益那麼從新制實施到115年4月30日30號為止的資料顯示投訴的案件是202件那麼其中進入校事會議調查的45案佔投訴案件的22%對照修法前同期114年1到4月的資料投訴案件"},{"start":2026.979,"end":2050.634,"text":"448案 進入校士會議調查的有366案 佔投訴案件的82%從目前的資料我們可以看到 新制實施之後投訴的案件確實較修法同期大幅減少而且新制透過受理判斷及案件分流的機制進入校士會議的比例也非常明顯的大幅降低"},{"start":2051.454,"end":2069.04,"text":"那麼另外在外界所關切的有關教師輔導管教制度方面那麼為了維護教師管教權本部在113年2月5號修正發布學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法的注意事項"},{"start":2070.06,"end":2096.679,"text":"重點是在維護教師的管教權強化校園安全檢查機制具體化教師管教措施以及支持機制鏈接學校家庭及社政資源那麼為了了解教學現場的需求本部會持續收集並參考地方政府及學校現場的意見相關精進的優化方向如下"},{"start":2098.137,"end":2110.197,"text":"朝向保障教師依法管教權那麼教師業務上的正當行為以及為了維持教學秩序以及教育活動正常進行之必要管教行為不予處罰"},{"start":2112.674,"end":2141.721,"text":"建立防濫數及合理的審查機制那麼尊重教師專業的判斷強化融合教育及專業的支持落實家長的共同管教責任那麼未來呢本部也會持續觀察制度運作的情形滾動檢討相關的措施在保障兒少權益的同時也落實教師專業與程序正義共同營造友善安全有秩序的校園環境以上報告"},{"start":2142.481,"end":2167.49,"text":"敬请各位委员指教谢谢好谢谢张料次长的报告其余提出书面报告机关代表除书面外有无口头补充报告卫福部好谢谢机关代表报告完毕相关书面资料请各位参阅并列入公报记录"},{"start":2169.353,"end":2185.693,"text":"由于议事录之前已经宣读完毕尚未确定那现在有满三人先确定议事录请问各位委员上次会议议事录有无错误或遗漏好谢谢议事录确定"},{"start":2189.902,"end":2218.799,"text":"今天我们安排的是校事会议相关的一个报告最主要的原因是校事会议目前整个社会的氛围还是非常的关注并且我们在1月公布了新修订的办法之后也有做出要求希望实施半年后能够在7月能够重新有一个检讨所以除了安排过公听会"},{"start":2219.339,"end":2237.166,"text":"也开过记者会那我们还是再进行一次专报就是希望能够收整到更多委员还有我们带来地方的意见让我们七月的一个检讨报告能够更真完整所以谢谢各位委员来参与"},{"start":2237.646,"end":2265.442,"text":"那今天我们现在进行答每一位出席委员的质询是6分钟必要时延长2分钟列席委员质询的时间是4分钟那发言登记截止的时间是上午10点30分委员如果有临时提案请于10点30分前提出并于本会委员武力华质询结束后即进行处理处理提案时若提案委员及联署委员均不在场"},{"start":2265.742,"end":2269.264,"text":"好 谢谢主席那有请教育部次长还有署长好 请次长 署长"},{"start":2286.531,"end":2313.57,"text":"委员好好 次长 署长早安我就先快速说一下之前在谈校师会议的时候我提出四大解方很感谢教育部第一时间在离县权有一些进度来下一张但是我上次有提醒这个进度的部分其实有一些配套其实是有问题的次长我跟你确认一下我可不可以上次没有要求我这一次可以要求在八月底以前在暑假开了很多教育局处首长会议之后是不是在八月底以前有一个比较完整的关于离县权的配套"},{"start":2314.8,"end":2339.365,"text":"我想李健全的这个我们也在6月17号已经发函了那当然在7月初的时候会有一个全国局处长会议那这部分呢我们会透过会议也跟各县市政府的首长来讨论这个事情也希望能够确实的落实所以委员所讲的在8月底以前应该是可以来努力来达成好我们一起努力好来下一张"},{"start":2340.425,"end":2366.877,"text":"今天要提到所謂教師輔導管教辦法但是我想要提出如果來細看這個辦法其實有一個很大的工作上的落差來第一個現在的規範層級其實對很多老師來說是太低了因為它是各校自定一旦層級太低然後如果學生處在同一個社區裡面但是他是不同學校其實管教辦法其實是有些落差的那一旦有這些落差對老師來說其實有執行上的困難第二個"},{"start":2368.117,"end":2388.819,"text":"當我們遇到一般管教啊 特殊管教或者是相關的法律的概念的時候其實對老師來說是不夠具體明確我覺得這件事情也是現在各校在訂定管理輔導管教辦法的時候遇到最大的困境第三個其實就是配套措施雖然正當管教有可能未來層級也提高了所謂法律觀念也完整了"},{"start":2389.159,"end":2413.276,"text":"但是家長的理解跟接受度會不會變成如果他不夠理解不願意接受那會不會變成老師還是被無端投訴又再回到校師會議裡面所以我在想當我們決定要去討論教師輔導管教辦法要如何調整跟修修這些管教辦法協助老師的時候我覺得還是有很多第一線的聲音要拜託教育部跟國教署要持續收集第一線的聲音這邊可不可以讓簡單讓次長回應一下"},{"start":2415.197,"end":2435.747,"text":"是謝謝委員的關心其實在教師法32條裡面他就是授權母法授權各校定一定所以我們是定注意事項那當然我們在過去也曾經有第一線的這個學校或老師反映這個事情所以我們後來也更強化那個注意事項的一個譬如說在24條那個主確違法"},{"start":2437.148,"end":2463.53,"text":"那個是不法那我們現在提到正向管教的部分是不是就很明確的能夠也做修正讓地方的讓第一線老師能夠在執行他的管教權的時候能夠有更具體的可遵循的然後他是免罰的範圍就是說只要家長他不了解他提出來他跟學校投訴那學校可以直接告訴他這是合理的管教範圍"},{"start":2464.651,"end":2486.945,"text":"所以他去投訴的話我想得到的反應都是一樣的那現在這個社會家長的觀念它不太一樣那當然溝通的部分也是非常重要啦所以我們也是希望說有機會的話透過學校的親師溝通也能夠在這過程裡面由學校來跟這個家長做說明的時候能夠特別來強調這方面的相關的辦法"},{"start":2489.747,"end":2518.11,"text":"好 听起来其实次长应该也了解就现场状况其实真的还是很多那我是不是就可以建议既然暑假一定要召开这个教育局处会议是不是也可以把这个辅导管教办法列入暑假再召开教育局处会议的时候听一听各县地方政府的声音还有教师会的声音然后相关第一线的声音让他们知道说未来在主卷违法事宜也好规范层级也好或相关配套措施到底教育部还可以如何积极的学校第一线的老师好不好可不可以纳入暑假开会的内容当中"},{"start":2519.271,"end":2537.445,"text":"對 我想在六月底也有陸續的教師團體或者其他的公共團體會來拜訪我們也會聽取他們的意見那在七月初的全國局處長會議我們也會特別跟這個地方的首長跟他們拜託說這部分我們一定要加強宣導"},{"start":2538.586,"end":2555.458,"text":"其實現在老師的士氣受到很重大的影響我們也希望在這部分能夠做確確的改善我們從初步的其實我們從1月12號公布的大家說那個數據當然也很有意見我了解這個情緒上的反彈不會一下子就馬上縮短了親師之間的那個"},{"start":2558.92,"end":2584.986,"text":"摩擦或者說在老師的這個信任問題那我想我們會繼續朝這方面來努力啦能夠趕快來解決你剛剛其實有提到一個關鍵就是我接下來談的就是親師之間的溝通其實我從2023年上任就是上一屆的最後一年的時候我就一直在跟教育部溝通到底家庭教育出了什麼問題我要先提醒次長台灣是全世界第一個制定家庭教育法的國家當時在家庭教育法的規範"},{"start":2586.066,"end":2611.157,"text":"我們建立了全台灣22個家庭教育中心然後我們甚至訂定了各階段的家庭教育忠誠計畫希望教育部編略預算在法規的支持下全台灣的每一個家庭都可以獲得最有利的後盾可是在長期的家庭教育失靈底下我必須要說現在校事會議裡面之所以會阻卻這些爛訴啦或者是匿名檢舉的部分我們把它刪除就是因為青石溝通出了很大的問題"},{"start":2612.017,"end":2625.991,"text":"所以在相關案件當中家庭教育確實是一個很大的困境來看下一張我們現在如果來看台灣的家庭教育落在哪些部分呢這個部分要請衛福部一起過來來第一個目前大家認為所謂的家庭教育確實是"},{"start":2627.732,"end":2654.079,"text":"建立在教育部的家庭教育法之下这个没有问题但后续的讨论我们再来说第二个卫福部你们所主张的家庭教育你们是说当家庭变成脆家脆弱家庭或是经济弱势家庭的时候或是出现儿虐相关事情的时候你们就会介入进行家庭教育的部分除了社福资源而对司法院来说因为我们有少事法当孩子们犯错了有吸毒有任何司法案件的时候根据"},{"start":2654.779,"end":2672.254,"text":"上市法第84條我們也會對家長進行強制的家庭教育這個盤點完之後我們發現這個是現在全台灣政府部門在協助做家庭教育就是教育部你們認為你們是一般家庭的家庭教育衛福部你們只做催家司法院只做司法的家庭"},{"start":2672.935,"end":2696.266,"text":"可是大家有沒有發現當司法院是用一個有問題的家庭我才介入衛福部也是這個角度的時候那大家就認為說沒有問題的家庭就要交給教育部囉所以教育部確實就得承擔大量的家庭教育工作可是我想先問三位我現在的分工我們的整理是對的嗎部長 次長對不起你看我的整理應該是對的吧"},{"start":2696.977,"end":2715.348,"text":"目前目前各地的家庭教育中心確實都是以宣導為主是沒有錯好那通常我們會說宣導的時候我們都會說以前我在當老師開家長會的時候我們可能都會開玩笑說該來的沒來什麼叫該來的例如說翠家衛福部你們已經站出來翠家經濟弱勢或是兒虐家庭的時候這些家庭該來的沒來對不對"},{"start":2717.069,"end":2743.207,"text":"衛福部我們剛剛委員講的那個催家或者是兒少保護的案件應該是說政府比較有那個公權力去做介入那甚至如果是兒女的案件的話幾乎是強制性的沒錯剛剛委員提到這些比較是這個資源的部分讓這個家庭他願意來接受的話其實我們各地方政府教育跟設政機關也有建立家庭教育需求服務合作的機制沒錯我都知道你們還有"},{"start":2744.847,"end":2765.534,"text":"所以也有跟部裡面每年都定期召開業務聯繫會議那希望來精進實務的執行為什麼我要盤點這一張我覺得我們現在看到一個比較大的困境就是如果教育部的家庭教育中心中山教育司你們的預算因為財化法降低了很多然後又要把錢給地方政府然後錢也越來越少"},{"start":2766.814,"end":2788.224,"text":"教育部可以負擔家庭教育的量能就會越來越低那如果衛福部跟司法院的角色你們就只有針對司法家庭跟脆弱家庭才介入的時候那前端的預防看起來全部工作就壓教育部身上但未來我們要修兒少全法難道大家真的不認為及早預防這件事情難道衛福部跟司法院不用積極的協助教育部嗎我覺得這個是現在很大的困境"},{"start":2788.624,"end":2807.956,"text":"如果所有的工作量能全部壓在教育部身上那前端的預防應該要用最多的錢最多的人力最好的資源囉但現在看起來不是所以以衛福部的角度來說我沒有說你們現在在做的是錯的但是未來我們在修兒少全法的時候難道不用往前多想一點嗎當我們意識到可能有一些家庭他在教育部的資源整併大廈"},{"start":2808.877,"end":2829.207,"text":"已經可能快要淪為粹家或是他可能有那個跡象的時候未服務的資源如何介入還有當然司法院今天沒有來可是我還是要提出司法院在協助司法少年的部分也是只有得進行家庭教育他也沒有強制規定甚至家長不來可能也只有相關的罰款可以解決我要說家庭教育其實應該座落在這些好來下一張"},{"start":2829.827,"end":2847.647,"text":"所以如果來看家庭教育法裡面的規定要推動家庭教育的機關其實在法規裡面有寫得很清楚一個是家庭教育中心再來是中生學習機構再來是各級學校還有各類型大眾傳播機構還有相關的法人跟團體可是如果來看實行細則我要說現在的很多家庭教育在做的內容"},{"start":2848.227,"end":2868.314,"text":"確實像次長你說的比較是宣導性質可是那個宣導到底到不到位有沒有到該去的人身上而我們回來看今天的主題叫做校式會議校式會議過去在壓垮地方老師的就是家長的濫訴這件事情所以為什麼我在說校式會議的改革本身的制度確實需要改革配套需要改革但回過頭來看"},{"start":2869.954,"end":2896.501,"text":"問題的源頭就在於家庭教育沒有辦法積極的落實跟相關的資源我不確定教育部在編列即將送來的新的預算年度是不是已經編列完成但是我要再次強調我從2023年質詢到現在我們家庭教育的預算沒有增加就是沒有增加各地方政府對於家庭教育要負擔的業務跟工作量也完全沒有認知結果所有最後的痛點都讓學校老師去承擔再來下一個"},{"start":2897.721,"end":2924.414,"text":"這個是衛福部我們跟你們調的數字大家只要看到兒虐新聞的時候就會說兒虐零容忍甚至有人提出兒虐要判死刑如果兒虐致死的話要判死刑但是我們來看一個可怕的數字我要拜託各位長官注意到一件事情強調家庭教育的重要相關2021到2015這五年當中的兒虐案件超過一半以上的施虐者都是原生家庭的父母"},{"start":2925.194,"end":2940.795,"text":"还有主要照顾者什么意思如果再不回头做家庭教育超过一半以上的儿孽失行人都是家庭里面的大人我们怎么能够不去做前端预防对吗 卫福部这边我想听听看你们的说法"},{"start":2941.315,"end":2955.995,"text":"因為你剛剛說法是對的在現在法規裡面你們確實只能等到孩子出事了才介入可是如果衛福部未來在修兒少全法的時候不把前端的預防也視為你們的業務那這個數字未來只會越來越多因為所有家長的壓力最後都會投射到"},{"start":2956.696,"end":2984.264,"text":"虐待小孩身上而這件事情可能不是只有教育部自己的資源所能夠承擔的跟委員報告委員說的沒錯我們在保護兒少絕對是從三級預防的角度來切入一定是從初級預防做前端的防治然後次級的部分所以這幾年我們推動這個社福中心其實是希望預防在先那最後就是真的發生事情之後我們後端的這個保護才能夠更強制的這個做介入"},{"start":2984.864,"end":2999.805,"text":"好 谢谢魏福布的回答回过头来看你刚刚有讲到一个关键叫做社福中心而次长刚刚你讲到家庭教育中心这两个中心都早就已经在社区里面了但过去这两个中心从来不沟通从来不对话"},{"start":3000.606,"end":3027.351,"text":"他們各自在負責跟服務的家庭完全有不同的想像攝服中心在想像的是有最佳的訊息來我才處理有經濟弱勢我才處理而家庭教育中心認為自己做的只是宣導宣導什麼宣導如何做親子教育啊如何跟小孩溝通啊如何防治3C但完全在政策資源上沒有對接所以第一線原生家庭虐待小孩的爸媽跟大人越來越多而這個比例是逐漸上升的所以未來"},{"start":3032.489,"end":3057.082,"text":"未來在修兒少權法的時候或者是如果我們要再討論家庭教育法要再修我認為各個地方的家庭教育中心跟在衛福部主導下各地的社福中心大家要一起對接起來甚至因為今天司法院沒有來我會說當年的戈井案老師們怕的就是司法少年而對於司法少年家庭來說家長也很無助家長也很焦慮所以如果盤點回到我剛開始講的"},{"start":3058.503,"end":3086.899,"text":"現在的家庭教育大家各行其事可是你回到所有最後的結果就是受虐的小孩還有這些司法誤觸司法的少年然後最後還有教育部的家庭教育如果大家沒有在源頭一起合作我會認為司法少年的案件只會越來越多包含這兩年的獨駕之前前幾年大量的詐騙案件都促成了司法少年的案件越來越多然後兒虐案也是這個狀況我相信衛福部這幾年應該覺得很頭痛所以回過頭來"},{"start":3087.799,"end":3112.077,"text":"我要说卫福部跟司法院其实真的应该积极的跟教育部沟通跟合作如何在第一线更积极的预防不论是家庭教育中心社福中心或是各地的警政机关大家都要意识到甚至跟村里长合作大家都要意识到如果我源头的家庭教育做好了其实我后面的校士会议也好儿女相关案件也好或是司法少年其实案量都会降低我想听一下你们的回应"},{"start":3113.041,"end":3141.099,"text":"我想謝謝委員的指教我想各地的家庭教育中心本來就會跟社政單位來做合作只是說他們的功能不太一樣那譬如說有一些高風險的家庭或者所謂的退家那本來我們這個家庭教育中心或者學校發現之後也是會跟我們的社政單位來聯繫看要投入什麼樣的資源或者做什麼樣的協助這部分是有的那委員所講的就是說在聯繫的跟資源上不足我們會再來檢討"},{"start":3142.639,"end":3160.325,"text":"好 拜託衛福部要積極因為未來兒少全法相關主責機關在你們身上是 我們的方向跟委員完全是一致的我們推動社安網也是希望以家庭為中心以社區為基礎所以社區裡面不會只有社福中心跟家庭教育中心我們所有的社區裡面的資源都是我們必須要網絡合作的對象"},{"start":3160.725,"end":3179.033,"text":"好 來下一張 謝謝我要講我們辦公室喊了三年現在總算全教總 全教產還有ED Youth也就是兒少團體自己也都加入發聲甚至老師第一線也都站出來告訴所有的主管機關家庭教育才是整體國立的第一線家庭該負的教育責任不應該持續外包給學校"},{"start":3179.893,"end":3194.779,"text":"家庭的教養責任要由家庭學校跟政府共同分擔所以我要再次主張從2023年到現在我要持續拜託各個部會在家庭教育我們真的還要更用力才有機會回過頭來在校事會議在改革的時候它有可能越來越好來"},{"start":3196.059,"end":3220.831,"text":"這個事情不是我空講如果我們按照國外的趨勢跟國外這幾年在做的事情英國他們設計了一個叫Family Hubs他用跨部會的資源放在社區裡面也就是說你以家庭為單位去考量而不是以部會你們的業務內容去考量以澳洲來說他甚至認為很多上而下的設計課程是沒有辦法對焦到現場家庭的需求還有很多非典型家庭"},{"start":3221.311,"end":3236.661,"text":"移民家庭非主流文化的家庭他們可能需要的是不同的親子教育活動例如說戶外烤肉所以他們設計了由下而上並除掉傳統的課程設計其實家長可能需要的是透過聊天當中得到協助日本更加積極"},{"start":3237.381,"end":3257.297,"text":"他以家庭支援中心為概念去長出很多的家庭訪問的資源啦甚至結合社區裡面有育兒經驗的家長退休的老師學校的社工具有親和力的社區人員透過訪問透過調查透過日常的互動去發現一提早發現可能有問題的家庭二"},{"start":3257.677,"end":3278.436,"text":"就算他觉得他是一个没有问题的家庭他都可能在这个对话当中得到一些心理支持因为很多家长不想觉得自己是孤单育儿的尤其在就业跟很多的孩子们升学的压力底下所以我要说而且教育部我要再次提醒记得是去年还是前年终身教育师甚至去日本办了家庭教育的考察"},{"start":3279.016,"end":3308.756,"text":"可是我也没有看到终身教育师去完考察回来之后到底在相关的业务推进上给了部长给了次长给了署长什么样的建议所以目前我才会问相关的预算相关的政策我其实还是非常担心我把简单这三个国家的案例简单的跟各位长官分享我希望后续你们在规划家庭教育各部会的衔接的时候真的要以家庭为本位不要再以部会为本位也不要再认为小孩子有出事触犯了司法我才要介入我拜托这个部分好再来下一个"},{"start":3309.617,"end":3326.634,"text":"現在像是會議另外一個大宗的案件是來自於普特融合現場的配套不足所產生的困境而我要說這個困境其實是全面的一個是特教老師現在幾乎承擔了所有的特教業務再來普教老師我們在修課程的時候我自己是普教老師喔"},{"start":3327.555,"end":3341.763,"text":"可是我也沒有被規定一定要修特教課程這個是現在最大的困境第三個特生的家長他也希望大家都可以理解他的小孩可是一般的老師一般的家長一般的學生不見得會理解再來特生他所需要的配套"},{"start":3342.563,"end":3358.555,"text":"我知道教育部有很多的積極的方案但是相關的一些現場的衝突的時候如果如何被理解如何被接觸接下來是在特生身邊的普生跟普生家長這個也是現在看到校士會議裡面很多衝突的大宗"},{"start":3359.255,"end":3381.509,"text":"除了我剛剛說家庭教育家長的爛訴之外其實是普特融合的配套但因為我時間有限我就不再多說我把這些問題提出來給各位長官參考一個是普特融合的相關配套還有再來就是家庭教育的實踐必須要在跨部會當中以家庭為本位這個部分要拜託相關的部會繼續一起努力研究那以上資料如果你們需要我們提供我們辦公室都很樂意提供"},{"start":3381.789,"end":3396.977,"text":"好 不知道長官有沒有要回應跟補充好 謝謝委員的指教我想委員所提的我們會朝這方面來努力好 謝謝那衛福部也拜託謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員接下來有請柯志恩委員進行詢答好 謝謝昭瑋我們先請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":3411.065,"end":3440.585,"text":"委员好四长好首先非常感谢赵伟今天特别排的这样的一个专报让我们大家好好来检讨一下有关于我们的校师会议让我比较遗憾的就是好 我先说一个比较好的就是有关于我们所提出的那个零限权教育部给一个积极的回应然后通函给各学校我们希望具体的配套措施能够更完整但是我比较遗憾的就是我必须要说从1月19号我们开始进入这样一个议题到6月15号的公听会到今天6月24号这边锁上有三本"},{"start":3441.205,"end":3459.78,"text":"不好意思里面的内容长得几乎都差不多如果长得都差不多的话各位你怎么期待我们在经过这么半年大家希望能够给他一个机会然后到七月的时候我们有不同的一个所谓的成果呢这里面的内容完全我把它勾画出来长得都差不多"},{"start":3460.6,"end":3484.968,"text":"所以次长这可能你们在写报告的时候如果有一些不一样的部分请你要update否则的话我们对于这样一个事情就会觉得教育是百人数人的工作但是不应该反映在教育主管单位里面对这些事情的弹性度跟反应度这让很多老师是为之气节我真的必须要去讲目前来说大家都是还是维持你们还是维持在7月的时候来做一个综合的检讨报告吗"},{"start":3485.508,"end":3493.232,"text":"還是一段到7月嗎?發生這麼多事情的,頓英火燒屁股了,還是要等到7月多嗎?我們一起其實在檢討,譬如包括我們在這過程裡面聽到的,公聽會還有座談會聽到的,譬如管教權的問題管教權目前為止我還沒有看到,我等一下會給你一一來就教"},{"start":3503.696,"end":3523.371,"text":"起碼在這個所謂的我們的公聽會當中你可以看到教師希望能夠廢除校事會議但是家長跟學生團體希望還是有所保留所以彼此的共識度還是有需要來做調解但是就是因為大家都沒有共識所以地方政府只能夠自救舉例來說目前來說像以高雄"},{"start":3523.871,"end":3552.88,"text":"他们就会认为校事会议的确造成很多老师这个信心上面的打击还有非常大的精神上的一个折腾所以他们就认为说要沟通先行跟法律会员意思就是说不是每一件事情只要家长只要一开始控诉我们就要进入校事会议目前来说就把一些相关不相关的一些的事情我们先透过一个公投平台把它处理掉不用进入来然后涉及解聘停聘霸凌等等之类我们再进入校事会议这是地方政府先做"},{"start":3553.26,"end":3576.42,"text":"但是我们更期待教育部能够在正面表述或者在负面表述里面可以有一个明确的一个规范这是这个我们很多地方的这个部分还是一句话期待教育部能够有更积极的作为哪些事情是可以放进去哪些事情不要所以不要告诉我从过去的80%降到22%22对我们来说的话还是非常的多的这是一项"},{"start":3576.94,"end":3591.695,"text":"所以说他们是否可以用前置协调修复关系分流的机制再往下还有更多老师也希望在调查小组目前调查小组当中的三位外部人员当中还被规定一定要有一个法律专家次长署长"},{"start":3592.276,"end":3595.26,"text":"目前來說次長我還是先聽我這邊大家覺得老師覺得最受傷的地方什麼你們用調查的思維用類似法的程序在這個過程當中讓所有接受調查的老師覺得你未審先判非常不受重視然後呢你在這個過程當中"},{"start":3612.259,"end":3641.699,"text":"是找了法律专家但是法律专家对于校园里面发生的很多的信息很多的温度很多的态度他了解吗如果这时候能够有家长有教师能够更了解教育现场不是蛮好的吗而且最重要原因是你整个调查小组这么有法律的思维进入到我们校室会议之后几乎就已经80%成定案的因为都尊重外部的调查那这个过程里面就造成非常多的嫌隙有必要去做修正吗这才是重中之重啊次长"},{"start":3642.499,"end":3668.081,"text":"好我想委員的建議我們也會納入這個考慮啦就包括那個由那兩位你說由那個學校教師跟教長代表這其實之前也有考慮過可是就是也有一些不同的意見是不同的意見但是目前事情發生了我還是強調類似法的程序跟所謂你們剛剛說那種調查的氛圍讓老師覺得他非常的受傷他們講說有罪推定"},{"start":3669.222,"end":3685.391,"text":"他们认为你们是这样的方式然后我们接下来看全面讨论的辅导管教的一个方法这个我在529的时候在我们的教师我们的高雄老师发生不幸的事件的时候马上就得到非常多委员的一个支持我不晓得你们这个管理辅导的管教的办法你们到底什么时候来启动"},{"start":3685.951,"end":3701.901,"text":"法务局你们目前的法务处有开始开会讨论吗你们有关正面表现赋月表说还有一些家长应该负担的共同的这个责任机制有开始在讨论吗刚才陈培文不但强调家庭教育的重要我也同意啊但是次长跟署长"},{"start":3702.361,"end":3731.364,"text":"你有没有发现现在有太多失功能的家庭有太多整个家庭环境都是需要被考虑但是那个不是只有你告诉他轻职教育很重要家庭教育很重要你教育部就有办法解决那是整个全面性的一个问题嘛对不对那我们要办法全面解决这个问题的时候我是不是从一个最浅层表面的辅导管教的办法能够把它提高到法律位阶你起码能够开始启动来告诉我们不能把全部的责任全部对给我们老师啊家长不愿管"},{"start":3731.744,"end":3760.365,"text":"然后还放声讲话那么大声那你这样让老师的这个整个责任这么大会把所有老师给压垮你们有没有开始讨论其实现在的解评办法里面第四条就是依法令行为就是不法就是依法令是行为不依法你们可以告诉我这个法令但是你现行的办法当中你就是有关于违法的处罚的界限你常常就会造成防御性的教学就是老师不愿管不敢管根本就不知道该怎么样因为你的界限很模糊怕稍微有一个部分"},{"start":3760.805,"end":3778.184,"text":"花蓮就发生过这样的事情啊两个孩子在打架老师也不过拉其中的一个人的衣领然后不小心碰到旁边的这个所谓的电风扇他最后被判的是停职两年这也是完全现实出现嘛所以你的界限你的防御导致所有老师都变成防御性的一个教学"},{"start":3778.664,"end":3798.024,"text":"还有呢就是我刚刚所提到的你校师会议完全是陷入有罪推定的这样一个文化这是所有老师的心声所以你必须要重视你不能告诉我你已经做了一些的规格了然后真正大家所以我想只问嘛有没有办法把它变成到法的一个层面来说辅导管教办法当中有没有办法到法的层面里面来"},{"start":3798.484,"end":3814.535,"text":"我們有在討論但是在修法會比較我當然知道你的法律的位階當中因為正反兩個意見嘛你的這個負面的意見你會覺得老師的自主空間校園的部分會壓縮嗎我們現在可以給譬如說提到那個離線權教師離線權的問題"},{"start":3817.838,"end":3837.171,"text":"將來未來朝向那個治安法的落實還有一個這個部分對老師的權益稍微有所保障但是對家長的層面涉及非常的廣家長裡面是不是有一些行政罰款的部分家長所要承擔的角色責任在這個法律位階上面這個部分你們起碼要開始跟法務處法務局"},{"start":3838.652,"end":3860.765,"text":"要開始來做一個討論嘛對不對對我們會聽啦因為很多這個投訴你講到投訴案件就是有千奇百怪因為譬如說最近在講說我們有降低譬如說用那個帳號假帳號那個網路也可以其實在我們的這個討論過程裡面你只要是假帳號查證我們是不受理的譬如說1999因為很多地方我們跟地方縣市政府在講"},{"start":3861.906,"end":3891.147,"text":"很多1999就直接就转到学校去但是这个都属于技术层面的一个问题真正的这些部分我相信你自然有一个筛选的机制现在最大的部分还是来自于老师在这整个过程当中当他觉得自尊心当他一股热忱没有办法被接住的时候那才是整个让教师崩盘一个最大的缘故所以这个东西教育部一定要非常有积极的作为还有一个就是我真的不知道铁拳教育是不是真的来了因为目前为止行政院有没有跟你们讨论过第五级的保全"},{"start":3891.727,"end":3911.729,"text":"没来啊 拜托这个部分到底怎么样你不是一件事情发生然后完全有个非常极度的一个动作教官你们说认为那是个威权然后呢弄了非常久的时间把教官被你们给请出校园了现在来了一个退休的这个军教警的要来进入校园"},{"start":3912.25,"end":3941.685,"text":"他有什麼樣的一個權責如果沒有辦法的有一些基本的一個權責的話他也不過是介於發生事情的時候像保全的一個角色這是你教育部要的嗎這是解決問題的方法嗎市長有跟你們討論過嗎沒有我想那個可能外界有點誤解行政院那個紀政委在談這個的時候他是一個跨部會的合作他是講說如果學校的這個一般的這個校安人力或者其他的這個學務的人力不足的時候學校有發"},{"start":3942.025,"end":3966.852,"text":"學校的校安人力學務人力在我們第九屆彼此當委員的時候我們就已經預估絕對會有而且那時候我們還預測隨著3C產品隨著毒品隨著非常多的事情不斷的氾濫當中學校需要有更好的可以保護的機制你們還是執意認為教官就是威權的校安那現在這個副主席不是我們現在的校安系統本來跟警政系統都有聯繫如果"},{"start":3968.852,"end":3978.057,"text":"發生刑案或者說一般比較重大事件學校請求才會依照內政部的規定當然是因為學校本來來說的話你還要經過學校允許這是一個基本的底線但你現在因為事件發生這麼多竟然行政單位提出了要有第五級的保全"},{"start":3989.522,"end":4015.488,"text":"而第五级的保全你看里面的内涵里面的机制为什么要动用到具有这个退休警的这个一个标志表示他们有这样的能力或者有这样的训练但是这样就有办法进入到校园来弥补过去我们认为校园需要更多的防务的一个角色吗你不觉得你们提出这个部分让大家让家长团体让很多团体就觉得没话说吗不是你不能说我们误解"},{"start":4015.988,"end":4022.41,"text":"幾乎每個人都這樣子那你話講清楚啊那到底有沒有這樣的一個方式要進來有沒有第五級保全的概念要進來然後他的權責在哪裡他有這個能力他有這個法律位階嗎萬一發生事情的時候他有辦法介入處理嗎他有這樣的資格嗎我覺得剛才我們提過了他沒有並沒有說要強制或者說要一定要所以你就認為在學校裡面放一個具有軍警背景的像保全角色一樣這是你們要的嗎我想這個完全不是這樣子"},{"start":4043.459,"end":4066.159,"text":"他只是說 他只是多一個選擇如果學校需要的時候就像你發生刑案你需要警察到現場去那也是要透過一定的程序那你如果發現特殊的個案你需要這樣子比較特別的一個保全能力你發生個案老師就打電話那你這個部門第五級的保全就是一個常備單位不然他這樣幹嘛他不是常備單位啦他不是 他不是的話那老師就可以打電話叫警察進來那這個單位是什麼"},{"start":4067.5,"end":4082.75,"text":"他們之間有一個聯繫譬如說他的一個對口譬如說大學裡面他大概組密以上那在學校的話就是學務主任以上對一定要經過那你第五級的保學在幹嘛他只是多一個選擇就是說我們除了學務人力下班的人力你根本就是對"},{"start":4083.57,"end":4104.962,"text":"你這個少數會不處理已經夠多諜長教育了你給我一個第五級保全來做一個選擇所以他沒有個強制力啦他是多一個選擇你目前為止又講不出這樣一個角色又好像不是常設在學校裡面然後對我們個人來說的話他不是一個常設的那你就直接就老師打電話學務主任打電話叫警察萬一需要的話就進來就好了你搞一個第五級目前是這樣子啦那你個第五級保全在幹嘛"},{"start":4106.382,"end":4129.77,"text":"難道是我們的這個政委看了這個鐵拳教育覺得好像有需要有一個教權單位處理然後就給我們一個第五級保全這個概念進來嗎如果沒有的話教育部請你給予他們一個非常大的一個底線好不好這個權責還在你教育部你應該起碼給予一個非常重要的一個指示我們現行的規範就已經很清楚了那你就是基本上就否定他這樣的說法嗎就大膽的講你就否定他這樣的說法嗎對不對"},{"start":4131.274,"end":4145.713,"text":"有沒有什麼 就是就是怎麼樣 他就是跟你講第五次保全他也接受媒體訪問其實他也提到了那個本來就是不會強力去介入或者說主動去介入是學校有需要的時候可以請求他們會去協助"},{"start":4146.274,"end":4165.034,"text":"我真的很不想问时间到了学校在什么状况需要请求请求之后这样一个角色跟一个地位跟现有的一个法规到底出别在哪里如果没有的话你讲这个东西到底在干什么没完没了所以教育部万一发生这种事情的话请行政院应该先跟你们沟通你们就在第一线就制止就可以不用延伸这么多其他的额外的问题好吧好谢谢"},{"start":4167.449,"end":4175.061,"text":"好 謝謝柯正恩委員的質詢請次長回座接下來我們有請葛禄君委員進行詢答"},{"start":4194.11,"end":4196.556,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請張廖萬堅次長好 有請次長"},{"start":4201.323,"end":4224.389,"text":"好委員好市長好今天我們吳麗華召委安排這個撰報題目非常用心因為是近期爭議極大的校事會議那市長一定知道校事會議的法源依據高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法那簡稱是教師解聘辦法在今年的1月23號的立法院"},{"start":4225.029,"end":4251.182,"text":"院會被提議由被查改為審查這也是我們反映民意的一個做法那這段期間只要有教育部的詢答就有部分黨派的立委呢去針對校事會議來提出各種的質疑來反映民意那根據立院職權行使法第十章有關行政命令的審查教師解聘辦法最終的結果可能就是提報院會經議決以後啊"},{"start":4252.142,"end":4274.952,"text":"通知原定班之機關也就是教育部更正或廢止之那次長作為一個負責的教育主管機關一定有針對未來可能發生的情況做好通盤計劃跟備案假設教師解聘辦法在校事會議的部分經過立法院的決議要更正甚至廢止請問教育部的計劃和備案是什麼"},{"start":4275.945,"end":4299.747,"text":"我們會照這個決議來做研議就是照我們立院的決議嘛那更正的話預計朝哪些方向面向來進行更正廢止的話教育部預計將採取什麼樣的新制度來處理校園世界我想政策都需要經過充分溝通啊你們應該也要做準備啊今天給次長一個機會向大眾說明一下教育部有沒有規劃好不好"},{"start":4300.928,"end":4327.314,"text":"你不能講說等你們決定了我們再說民意已經在那裡啦所以更正怎麼更正廢止的話什麼樣的新制度委員我跟你講跟你報告我們歷次的報告就是不斷的在驚慌之前這個發生了一些狀況所謂的濫訴或者是匿名投訴我們在經過檢討之後1月12號已經公佈了那如果說大院還有新的決議那我們當然也會朝這方向我們已經拉下來備查啦對啊我們現在還在檢討中嘛"},{"start":4328.334,"end":4344.452,"text":"我們也在針對這些新的制度實施之後它所呈現的結果市長我給你機會你沒有回答我我問你說如果廢止的話新制度是什麼如果要更正的話更正方向是什麼你沒有回答我我請學生寫作業"},{"start":4346.855,"end":4356.284,"text":"寫來了我說我還沒教給你如果上一次你覺得我寫得不好的我會寫得更好你覺得我寫得好的我繼續努力那你如果覺得我沒有教我這一次會教這個有講跟沒講一樣啊"},{"start":4359.861,"end":4387.798,"text":"更正往什麼方向更正廢紙新制度是什麼有個答案還是就是沒有答案那你就直接講更正就是修正修正我們目前都在做一直在做所以我覺得這不是一個很好的示範但是沒有關係你們作業還沒做或假設你說我們一直在做沒關係民眾痴痴的在等我們來合作我們來合作我們來合作這邊向次長提供一個良好的案例"},{"start":4389.018,"end":4406.738,"text":"錯誤的政策除了等待立法院的決議員機關更正或廢止之外其實行政部門是可以採取積極作為的去年2月NCC有冒然上路一個收費新制把耳機手機二類的這個射頻器材去加收了額外繳交750元的審查費民怨沸騰實稱750之亂"},{"start":4410.982,"end":4435.106,"text":"後來NCC在本席及多名跨黨派立委的關切之下於五天後直接宣布停徵相關的費用並且啟動退費作業的程序這就是行政部門迅速回應民意的做法所以部會不是只可以被動的依據立法院的決議來辦理市場針對校職會議的議題教育部有沒有可能參考先前我們看到的NCC的做法"},{"start":4435.606,"end":4462.074,"text":"即刻的來回應民意密集的來檢討現行的制度推動全面新制度來取代校室會議該廢止的直接你就可以廢止啊你根本不用等我們啊來請回應謝謝委員其實教室會議要不要廢止家長團體跟教室團體是有不同意見的所以我們在這個過程裡面也是非常審慎在聆聽各界的意見在做調整聆聽各界的意見我們已經1月3號已經公布了一次現在幾月幾號啊"},{"start":4463.134,"end":4479.134,"text":"今天幾月幾號啊1月12號今天6月24號委員你可能不了解新的制度1月12號有修正上路之後到4月底我們又公布新的數據跟去年做比較確實也達到一定的分數字下降又怎麼樣了嗎大家就沒有再抱怨了嗎公聽會幾月幾號"},{"start":4481.036,"end":4502.227,"text":"宮廷會幾月幾號宮廷會六月啊 上禮拜嘛如果你校會數字下降了大家就不抱怨了那宮廷會也不用開 不用排也不會有人來啦結果是什麼在這裡撕報告的撕報告拍桌子的拍桌子您就是在現場待著 次長啊所以我要跟您分享我從頭聽到尾很好 謝謝您從頭聽到尾"},{"start":4506.129,"end":4529.066,"text":"這個教師解聘辦法由備查改為審查兩位召委喔不分藍綠喔公聽會也開了專報今天也排了你如果說數字下降我們武力華召委幹嘛要排專報咧對不對你回答嘛是不是就是還有要解決的事情嘛委員這是第一步嘛我們做事情就是要第一步第二步第三步就是來做不好意思喔市長"},{"start":4530.107,"end":4558.135,"text":"現在已經不是第一步的時間了你剛剛已經講這是長期的抱怨你的修正一月到現在也已經五個月半年快過去了這麼厚一本公聽會的資料字字寫類您剛剛也說了您都在現場這麼多專家沉痛呼籲如果教育部還要堅稱台灣的教育一直在往好的方向改革部長還在說自己好棒棒大家怎麼沒有給我們掌聲如果教育部還是要用片面的"},{"start":4559.116,"end":4564.849,"text":"這種沒有溫度的數字來證明教育現場的輕師生已經變得更和善"},{"start":4565.629,"end":4593.383,"text":"那表示什麼這段時間的這些建議我們沒有這樣說我們朝這個方向努力但是我們沒有像您說的敘述的這樣子我敘述的怎麼樣子我敘述的就是你們長時間沒有作為不要只看數字部長說我們做得很好大家沒有給我們掌聲我們不會以這個數字作戰爭之心所以我在工兵隊在座談會也提過所以委員你也不要誤解這個我們的努力不要誤解"},{"start":4593.803,"end":4612.717,"text":"可以回去看部長的質詢他是怎麼提的沒有關係今天次長希望您可以提供給我們一些新的方向我們剛剛給你機會了如果你願意你也跟我們願意來說沒關係請教次長韓國最近爆紅的鐵拳教育斑斑血淚韓國在2018到2023年我們講數字我們講數字數字你知不知道2018到2023韓國一共幾位教師自殺"},{"start":4622.657,"end":4627.429,"text":"一百多位一百多位啊這是數字還是戲劇沒有我說你講的對嘛鐵拳劍還是戲劇嘛"},{"start":4630.253,"end":4659.486,"text":"不用您解釋我也沒有問您這是質詢所以我們要講的是這一百多位教師自殺催生的教權釋法所以這一部戲劇的背景是真實的修法是真實的教權釋法也是真實的我想請教部長2024年台灣中華民國一年的教師自傷自殺的人數是多少我們看到了韓國五年"},{"start":4661.69,"end":4678.119,"text":"是100多人2024年你們說做得很好啊我們有數字我們來看數字嘛一年自傷自殺多少人而且您公聽會也都聽啦我直接告訴您啦不用看啦我同一篇沒有做啦在這本啦公聽會的第24頁我們的黃理事長鄉縣提到啊"},{"start":4683.154,"end":4687.486,"text":"台灣2024年校安通報當中自傷自殺的教師有124名自傷自殺"},{"start":4692.726,"end":4714.026,"text":"這個數字你們還要再定義了指甲脫落了還是什麼這個數字不嚴重嗎這個數字不需要市長記得嗎教育部是否能夠參考韓國的做法研議制定相關的修正的法案我們台灣的教權法教權局是想像的教權法的修法可以做有沒有機會來研議"},{"start":4715.327,"end":4739.51,"text":"我們教權那個釋法修法之後其實我們也去了解韓國的現況是他們教師公還是在抱怨就是說還是有一些問題所以我想每一個國家的情況不一樣那我們都不用做了啦我們都不用做了啦立法院成立以來我們所有的法一段 一再的修 一再的立都有人抱怨那我們明天 張偉我們是不是都不要開會了"},{"start":4740.111,"end":4756.142,"text":"所以我們都一直在精進在修正啊怎麼會沒有修正啊所以我在問的問題很具體請問台灣的教權法可不可以研議我不知道你所謂的教權法是指哪一部分包括職業安全職業安全衛生法我們有關教書的部分現在還在跟大陸附在研議"},{"start":4758.544,"end":4778.092,"text":"來請說我們也在相關的法案都在研議包括輔導管教辦法我們現在也準備在修那也有座談會的時候也有提出要不要入專法那入專法之前如果他放入廢時我們要修哪一個部分的注意事項或者辦法我們都在研議嘛好希望盡快提出啦讓大家有一個感受不要只是看冷冰冰的數字好不好"},{"start":4778.652,"end":4807.738,"text":"那接下來也要看市長討論一個又指紋樓梯響的新政策上禮拜四行政院院會後的記者會左右院長有宣布就是剛剛有很多委員都關心的第五級保全那我們又立即向教育部來索資結果得到的回應再一次一切上代規劃無資料可提供這已經不知道是幾次全國民眾又被教育部呼嚨從未經行政院核定就登上雜誌大內宣的AI人才方舟計劃"},{"start":4808.678,"end":4837.978,"text":"到宣布要和中研院一起合作设置的TAS高等研究院计划有很多单位都跟我们讲教育部根本没有跟他们商量就被放进去还被拿来宣传结果到现在在这个会后记者会上宣布第五级保全每一次本席都在帮消息曝光媒体大肆刊登现在还到头条立即向教育部所知每一次答复都是没有内容可以提供我们现在甚至到行公文过去"},{"start":4838.998,"end":4861.599,"text":"連沒有資料可以提供的公文回覆都直接不回啦難道這個現在是怎麼樣政策做法先喊先贏拔草測風向我們的教育部變成宣傳部了嗎第五級保全的規劃有太多家長學生在關心那我就問到底這個計畫的細節是什麼何時上路"},{"start":4862.259,"end":4887.52,"text":"我想這個背景是因為面對新興毒品帶來的挑戰所以行政院在跨部會的會我剛才有提到他有建議說校園的安全維護可以考量納入納入這個第五級保全的協助建立學校警方企圖之間的合作基礎我們現在目前也有市長很奇怪剛剛我在底下聽柯志恩委員在這裡質詢才五分鐘前你說不一定"},{"start":4888.32,"end":4915.894,"text":"你現在突然又來唸說要有第五級保全民眾這樣聽不懂是不是又是一個拔草測風向你如果聽不懂我再說明我剛才講的是說行政院建議校園行政院建議校園教育部的態度是什麼我們就提出說我們現行已經有這樣的制度我們就一問三不知那我們來請教現行制度下第五級保全是不是就是指承接公家機關國營事業高階防護"},{"start":4918.115,"end":4938.004,"text":"志願退伍軍人 僅職人員或國軍義務役特種部隊退役年資合計達兩年以上通過三千公尺跑步車椅及其他專業訓練的特種保全是不是這樣的定義對啊是是這樣的定義好那我們就請問職責是哪些面向校園有私生衝突的時候他要站在哪一邊"},{"start":4942.011,"end":4966.257,"text":"我們現在那你講的是我們現在現有的學創人力的工作嗎我們說你怎麼有這個新的政策你說沒有喔不一定要執行我們說我們說那你到底細節是什麼行政院建議可以開放不是一個常規的人力然後我說怎麼又有了你說是建議然後我們說細節是不是這個你說是這個然後我說那他要做什麼你說這個不一定要執行不確定還在規劃"},{"start":4969.204,"end":4979.898,"text":"次長沒有關係您回去看一下您的錄影啦沒有講的話我尊重你的職權那您仔細說明他們職責包含哪些面向你剛才說講的那些我沒有說啊"},{"start":4980.7,"end":5000.928,"text":"怎麼考慮建議要實行 我沒有這樣講嘛你剛剛說建議啊你剛剛說行政院說建議啊我是說這是行政院的建議嘛說面對新興不明的挑戰對啊 然後咧然後執行所以行政院建議說考量到校園安全你當然可以考慮可以納入這個第五級保全建議考慮納入嘛然後我問您第五級保全定義的時候您的回應說這已經是現行的"},{"start":5004.789,"end":5025.897,"text":"不是第五級保全的社會現在有在用嗎你講的是說在銀行在重要的港口的這些所以建議可以考慮然後這是現行的對啊那我就問你既然建議考慮那就會有人採用那採用現行的那我問你職責包含哪些面向私生衝突的時候怎麼辦你又停住了"},{"start":5026.457,"end":5047.432,"text":"不是 這個是學創人力的工作 我們沒有要引用這個來做任務的這是別人的工作 誰的工作 來 借聽一下你不要這樣子斷章取義 我講的是我哪裡斷章取義我剛才講過是新興毒品嘛 對不對 是面對新興毒品的挑戰那你再唸一次 這是你第三次唸那句話市長你可以再唸一次 你再唸一次剛剛那句話我知道你再唸第三次"},{"start":5051.076,"end":5071.258,"text":"我尊重你的職權不過我想我們沒有講的話透過你的詮釋這樣子我很謝謝我們立法院有錄影啦大家就回去看錄影我們都是在釐清在現場教育人員私生親私生對於教育部行政院的說法不清"},{"start":5071.798,"end":5098.806,"text":"我沒有說是面對新興毒品的挑戰啊你說第五級保全如果是學生情緒的問題因為你的那一句話的下一句就是第五級保全不是嗎建議核採納你問我說學校的學生的情緒問題要第五級保全我說當然不是嘛我沒有說情緒問題喔請問我剛剛有沒有講情緒問題四個字市長請問我剛剛有沒有講情緒問題四個字我跟你講你有提到說要處理學生的一些相關的事務嘛私生衝突嘛請問"},{"start":5101.087,"end":5123.789,"text":"第五級保全在校園內要怎麼處理我就是這樣問我沒有講情緒師生衝突就是學創人力或者是老師在處理嘛所以不是教育部的範疇啦是不是不是第五級保全嘛所以第五級保全我剛剛問的全話是職責包含哪些面向然後如果有師生衝突的時候要如何面對"},{"start":5124.529,"end":5153.32,"text":"那當然我也說那是學創能力不會用到第五級保全沒關係啦 市長我們回去看一下錄影如果有不足夠不完整的地方希望教育部來提供資料來讓因為我們所知我們所不到所以我們代表民眾我們所取資料是所不到的今天您的回應來來回回我覺得也許有清楚也許有不清楚希望你們再提供啦那這個保全薪資五萬三千元到底是地方支出還是由教育部負擔如果您說是現行制度的話"},{"start":5155.126,"end":5173.101,"text":"現行支柱沒有第五級保全跟委員報告現行的第五級保全是用在銀行或相關的一個產業哇因為這我是提到說目前的這個教官的離退我們有學創人力的引進面對毒品的一個問題謝謝那擔心謝謝您可以先市長"},{"start":5174.702,"end":5185.024,"text":"您剛剛說是現行制度所以這個現行制度有套用在校園嗎我講的現行制度是社會的不是學校的現行制度啦又擴充解釋所以次長我想要告訴你為什麼我們索取資料這麼重要因為不會有我們這樣現場一來一回您可能會誤會我我也許也會誤會您這個其實是不好的好不好所以剛剛我們又理解又擴充理解了所以次長講的現行制度不是校園內"},{"start":5204.508,"end":5216.254,"text":"有第五級保全我可以這樣理解嗎可以好所以大家要回去看錄影不要誤會市長前面的話最後還是要來請教不好意思我爭取一點時間因為教師人立方的問題很嚴重代理教室105年從11%上升到113年15%國中階段代理教師105年的11%上升到113年的18%我們真的要留住他們我們也很感謝他們幫忙"},{"start":5231.201,"end":5256.482,"text":"那很多代理教師去接手班期是在一個學期裡面他的聘期可能不滿三個月畢竟代理老師是被找來接手的聘期不是掌握在他們的手中那市長請教按照教育部的現行規定我現在講得很清楚按照教育部的現行規定聘期未滿三個月的代理教師在計算薪水的時候也可以和專任教師一樣採計之前的任職年資嗎"},{"start":5258.246,"end":5286.222,"text":"三個月這部分未滿三個月不好意思因為這個這個我跟主席爭取一點因為這個全國都在等市長的答覆啦為什麼因為我們秀出的這個圖就是地方至少五個縣市的教育局在發函去問教育部到底這個問題的答案是什麼來請說可以還是不可以宜蘭高雄台中新北台南等五個縣市至少都在發公文搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":5287.122,"end":5314.967,"text":"短期代理教師的話並沒有對因為他是短期未滿三個月到底算不算年資未滿三個月的部分他不算三個月以上的話才是我們的長期代理教師不好意思我們在這個2024年8月9號憲法法庭113年度憲判第7號中小學代理教師前年資職前年資提續案有說答案是可以的"},{"start":5316.047,"end":5335.624,"text":"答案是可以的喔你們有沒有研議過憲判第7號2024年8月從8月1號之後就可以喔而且你們回函給各個縣市都說是可以的喔你們內部有沒有需要搞清楚"},{"start":5337.341,"end":5362.694,"text":"這個不是只是螺絲鬆了會讓很多教師搞不懂因為教職人員不管代理還是專任年資真的很重要尤其還有從A縣市再跑到B縣市的這個很正常我們都有看到真的很辛苦我真的是再次感謝全國的代理教師還有所有的專任教師那這種跨縣市還會有很多的問題所以我訴求很簡單第一"},{"start":5365.118,"end":5382.649,"text":"請教育部盡速統一含資各縣市政府聘期未滿三個月含按日資薪資代理教師比照專任教師納入年資計算如果你們不清楚法律請去看2024年8月9號憲法法庭的113年度憲判制第7號"},{"start":5383.59,"end":5403.474,"text":"第二 請教育部務必於公文內清楚說明本解釋 也就是我們剛剛提到的解釋生效的時間點是民國114年的8月1號起施行也就是合格代理教師享有職前年資提續的時間點避免代理教師事後有爭議 爭取薪資權益的問題"},{"start":5406.235,"end":5423.7,"text":"主管機關或學校勿以教育部發文解釋的時間點起算所以你們要講清楚這個生效的時間點是114年8月1號起實行請次長可不可以當場承諾相關發文程序可不可以在兩週之內完成我再次感謝我們趙偉 吳丁華趙偉好不好 兩週內完成 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝葛如君委員的質詢請次長回座"},{"start":5432.458,"end":5453.632,"text":"接下來 我們有請陳秀寶委員進行詢答謝主席 請江遼次長好 有請次長"},{"start":5456.806,"end":5478.01,"text":"好委員好市長好市長關於校事會議這個新制徵域部在今年1月有公布新的這個相關的辦法解聘辦法及考核辦法那有新增的親師生溝通的預防機制那健全案件受理程序包括刪除匿名檢舉也有建立案件這個分流機制新增輔佐"},{"start":5478.49,"end":5494.063,"text":"人來參與機制以完備資訊提供義務及健全主管機關監督機制這七大項的措施那在統計的這個資料顯示其實投訴案件相較同時期從448件有降到202件案件的數量是減半的"},{"start":5498.286,"end":5513.758,"text":"京德校士會議的案件量相較同期從366案也降到45案減少了降低了60%這些數據代表說教育部的辦法修正是有效的就是將這個案量降低"},{"start":5514.318,"end":5536.127,"text":"但是在面對我們教育現場有很多的教師對於校事會議可能有誤解或者說我們制度還不夠完善的地方當然我們會持續的來改進那我想請教次長我們這些新制度實施之後教育部這邊有沒有跟教師們說明清楚我們目前是用什麼樣方式跟教師說明我們新制已經有改善"},{"start":5536.747,"end":5557.692,"text":"我想在很多場合,包括部長,包括我們都有提到,當然外界認為說那個數字只是比較冰冷,沒有溫暖,老師在第一現場他在教學的時候,面臨一些爛數或者說不當的投訴,造成他的困擾的時候,那個折磨比這個數字有溫度,但我們理解老師這種第一現場那種感受的問題。"},{"start":5557.892,"end":5585.228,"text":"但是有數字的顯示就表示有進步了我也強調過說這個數字我們不是沾沾自喜我們在聽了很多老師的意見之後我們做了一些分流也承受了一些壓力其實有的對這個匿名投訴也有不同的意見那部長後來想說以後匿名投訴我們現在民主社會大家負責所以這確實造成了一定的分流還有就是教書團體還有一些團體也在講說是不是可以恢復到學校這種"},{"start":5586.128,"end":5610.638,"text":"強化學校內部的一個溝通就是說這個我們其實在分流的時候有提到說加強親師生溝通這個你們有都放進去啦溝通機制啦對我們盡量都把它放進溝通機制那當然現在還有被這個質疑的地方是說那進入考核的部分是不是也有委外調查的部分那這部分我們也在跟地方了解那個因為才新支柱來上路這個還需要研議啦我現在想要請教次長就是說你們"},{"start":5611.598,"end":5634.497,"text":"你們現在用什麼樣方式跟教師說明我們持續的都有在完善相關的制度我想我們也不斷的在溝通啦你們用什麼方式來告訴教師我們相關的校式會議制度是有新的措施我們在七月初七月上旬會召開全國局處長教育局處長會議我想我們會跟全國的局處長首長"},{"start":5635.638,"end":5639.5,"text":"包括我們整個校士會議的緣起相關制度的修正那我們可以討論以及納入意見對制度完善相關我們要讓教師去了解說這個與他們切身相關的而且壓力極大的校士會議其實我們有一直在聽地方的聲音去修正它"},{"start":5655.689,"end":5679.236,"text":"那所以市長您一直到7月份的時候我們會有一個全國的全國局處長會議啦我們會去商議怎麼樣子落實就是這個新制度上路之後能夠真正的有效數字上雖然這樣顯示那有些人不滿意覺得還是太多還是還是有一些情況我們會針對這部分來跟地方縣市首長來研討要怎麼樣子再來面對讓那個其實有些學校"},{"start":5679.636,"end":5698.549,"text":"好那次長您的意思就是說我們還是要在7月的這個會議之中跟各縣市的教育局處討論之後那包括我們這個制度如何持續完善以及我們如何讓教師們知道新的制度新的措施以及我們改善的方向是嗎對我們其實也提到說配套譬如說"},{"start":5699.289,"end":5714.074,"text":"老師在講說那個合理管教權他們覺得對他們沒有保護所以他們現在做防禦性教學或防禦性這個輔導所以他不是那麼積極所以我們這一部分我們也希望讓老師在第一線在落實他的管教權的時候能夠這個"},{"start":5715.455,"end":5729.334,"text":"他們必須清楚的知道自己的權益我想你們要讓教師們知道其實我們現在甚至網路上的社群平台提到老師納入職業安全衛生法的相關的法令我們也是在研究這個當下"},{"start":5730.776,"end":5750.838,"text":"好 謝謝次長那隨著串流平台上鐵拳教育的這個討論是很熱烈的其中這個戲劇裡面教權保護局對這個校園監督將校園的亂象依依的這個改正但大家看了心裡覺得很滿足那這部戲劇呢當然它是由韓國校園的真實事件來改編也值得我們去思考"},{"start":5751.899,"end":5768.844,"text":"當校園裡面有危害教學的情形發生的時候我們教育部還能提供什麼協助才能夠兼顧師生教師及學生的權益那韓國他們的地方政府就有地方在考慮是不是真的要成立像教權保護局這樣的第三方專責單位次長您覺得呢"},{"start":5771.983,"end":5790.892,"text":"這第三方專責單位當然提出來之後大家可以討論那以台灣目前的狀態應該不是每個團體都那麼一定會支持這樣的制度其實本席並不是認同說戲劇當中這個教權保護局這種以暴制暴的手段畢竟它是戲劇它的表現必須要有一些張力"},{"start":5791.932,"end":5813.154,"text":"那本席想要強調的是說設置第三方專責單位來審視校事會議是不是公正這也許也是許多教師的期待而針對不實的檢舉的部分我們研議相應應的這個懲罰機制也許也能嚇阻那個濫訴的情況那教育部能不能針對這個部分我們持續的研議可能性"},{"start":5813.835,"end":5835.108,"text":"所以我們其實委員所提到的第三方的那個處理的平台我們其實也不是沒有討論過但是就是那也涉及到地方縣市政府他們的態度的問題市長您的回答表示就是說其實有在討論有在思考但是是不是適宜或者是如何做其實還是要跟地方的教育局處來討論包括教師團體"},{"start":5838.73,"end":5854.118,"text":"這個部分其實我還要再提一下就是根據媒體的調查顯示其實教師們並不是要求一定要全面廢除校式會議他們是希望說校式會議的制度以及相關的配套要更加的完善才能夠來保護到"},{"start":5858.12,"end":5886.56,"text":"親師生三方的權益所以本席希望教育部這邊要研議精進校士會議的制度包括剛才您也提到了合理的管教底線完善的制度這個部分希望說你們要持續再研議那教育部這邊是不是有你們持續研議的相關的制度提供書面報告給本席可以嗎好你非常清楚我們初步就是達到我們希望有分流大小案分流那目前看數字是有所以數字也不是沒有溫度它確實有分流"},{"start":5887,"end":5908.225,"text":"那我們現在在講是說那分流之後過去所累積的第一現場老師的那種情緒那種不信任感市長其實大家有看到也知道說教育部其實對於校事會議的弊端有持續的想要改善也有一直在研議改善的這個措施但是是不是真的緩不及急這個部分教育部其實你要思考我們會繼續來努力好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5910.365,"end":5924.377,"text":"那接下來我要關心就是現在的天氣高溫的問題根據中研院的研究太陽最讀的時間其實不是我們一般認知的12點到2點這個中午的時段而是上午的10點到中午這個時間那這個研究應用應用到這個綜合熱溫度指數"},{"start":5928.24,"end":5945.152,"text":"那綜合熱溫度指數高於28度的時候熱傷害這個發病的風險會急速的增加之前本席在關心運動員熱傷害風險的時候就一直強調熱傷害不能只看當天的溫度其實還要加上環境濕度輻射風速也就所謂的綜合溫度熱指數WBGT"},{"start":5949.495,"end":5964.796,"text":"雖然教育部初步回應說會看教學現場的狀況以及國際間的狀況做調整但本期這邊還是希望說針對目前極端氣候的狀況之下教育部可以研議我們從國小開始建立各校以及學生有關的相關的"},{"start":5965.997,"end":5981.571,"text":"綜合熱溫度指數的概念或是我們來補助學校來構置這個測量儀器而且我們也希望說可以研擬相關的這個指數如果超標對應的指引來供學校參考次長您回答一下這個我們會來研議"},{"start":5982.572,"end":6011.722,"text":"因为其实在这个最热的时间尤其是我们的孩子我们的幼童他发生这个热伤害的风险是很高的那我们的体育课有时候是排在这样的时段是不是应该是天后是整个的指数来调整是不是在室内上啊还是举调课对对就是以学生的安全为主要的优先考量那所以这个部分我们教育部是不是也应该演绎相关的指引这个部分你们这个部分你给我一份报告可以吗现在的办法已经有了我们会再来跟学校提醒"},{"start":6012.222,"end":6033.883,"text":"好另外呢我要跟教育部來提醒一個狀況我這邊有帶過來就是中國兒少目前在流傳的一種叫做娜塔莎娃娃就長這個樣子喔那小孩子他們會帶去學校然後摔打焚燒拉扯甚至用美工刀來劃就是這種部分還會拍成影片在網路上流傳"},{"start":6034.764,"end":6049.484,"text":"那有專家提醒說這樣子的這些產品那它所引導的這樣的行為可能會造成兒少之間有不良的影響會提升兒少這個暴力傾向所以在中國其實很多學校就是禁止學生帶這樣的東西到校園"},{"start":6050.305,"end":6078.809,"text":"那這個東西其實在我們台灣目前購物平台甚至娃娃機甚至那種櫥窗的商品很容易會買到那我這邊是比較憂心說我們的兒少是比較出現這樣子模仿的行為因為這樣子的他在網路上流傳的就是這樣子暴力的去對他這樣子是不是會讓孩子產生說其實這樣子是正常的是可以這樣子做的那我們去禁止他可以禁止他但是我會希望說我們要告訴孩子"},{"start":6079.569,"end":6093.142,"text":"為什麼我們要禁止要當讓他了解讓他理解他才能知道說我們禁止他們玩這樣的買這樣的東西還是玩這樣的東西或這樣子對待他我們的緣由是什麼次長你說明一下我想這個在台灣這應該是在中國那邊的"},{"start":6095.484,"end":6118.682,"text":"對 沒錯那台灣目前如果在網路社群或者說在學校房間已經有這樣的現象我們一定會來要求學校來協助處理要留意一下目前看起來我們所知道委員在關心我們去了解目前是還台灣的社會買是網路社群上好像那個網站上買得到但是看起來在"},{"start":6119.443,"end":6145.845,"text":"那個孩子的社群之間是還沒有這個現象這個就是我助理在娃娃機夾到了對 買得到娃娃機也夾到了所以我想我們會這部分我們會特別來注意有這個狀況就是希望說如果有這樣的狀況那其實我們要去引導孩子這是一個不適當的行為那我們要讓孩子理解讓老師可以教導孩子他們理解他們才會知道說為什麼這不是一個好的現象我們會來注意好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"},{"start":6147.978,"end":6173.743,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢 請次長回座接下來有請林怡瑾委員進行詢答謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請次長好 委員好次長早"},{"start":6175.06,"end":6203.777,"text":"首先今天我們就來談那個校士會的相關問題這個老師這個職業其實就是要來傳授知識啟發學生的思維那塑造這個學生的品格那所以並要陪伴學生給予一些心理支持所以任何制度的設計其實都要來保障學生權益的前提下那當然也要尊重老師的專業這很重要"},{"start":6204.597,"end":6218.947,"text":"可是現在很多老師已經造成防禦性的教學不敢管也不敢教專業就會被迫打折可是我們來檢視學校訂定教師輔導與"},{"start":6220.968,"end":6243.567,"text":"管教學生的辦法的注意事項這個教師基於導引學生發展本來就可以採取這個適當的管教措施嘛那如果萬一學生有激烈的行為這個老師對於學生身體施加強制力是不予處罰對 沒錯那可是這只是注意事項就是所謂的行政規則"},{"start":6244.648,"end":6263.65,"text":"那效率也很有限那上次我們在公聽會的時候那個次長你有提到說你個人是支持這個輔導管教辦法入法那其他專家學者也有一些建議那你現在目前教育部的態度呢我們現在就在入法之前因為入法它畢竟比較放入廢時"},{"start":6264.571,"end":6280.843,"text":"那他目前已經有的這個輔導管教辦法的這個相關的母法授權來自教師法所以我們現在授權學校訂定是用注意事項那注意事項裡面其實已經有明文規定但大家覺得那個法令位階不足不夠其實是"},{"start":6281.744,"end":6304.776,"text":"也不是不夠其實是覺得對老師的保障不夠所以我們才提到說可以考慮入法當時也有教師團體提出這樣的意見我們個人贊成所以我目前我們也請部裡的同仁去研議那在研議入法之前我們是不是先就現在的注意事項裡面能夠更強化對第一線老師他合理管教權的保障那這個可能會比較重要"},{"start":6305.416,"end":6323.745,"text":"所以就是要先修改辦法嘛注意事項能夠更明確那像第24點他提到的阻卻這個違法室友我們要怎麼在校事會議前端就不受理或分流調就老師正當在輔導管教或阻止智商或商人相關條文這也讓"},{"start":6325.926,"end":6353.315,"text":"我們在1月12號公布的那個流程裡面其實前端的流程裡面其實就可以引用這個部分如果它確實是一個合理管教的行為沒有涉及到不當管教那其他是認定上大小有過頭嗎沒有過頭還是怎麼樣那個就一般考核就可以去了解就可以了對對對我們其實在現在的消失會的前端在進入消失會之前其實就可以來做一個認定"},{"start":6354.707,"end":6369.895,"text":"就是要明確化就是老師採取相關措施的免責權應該這樣講吧教師業務上之正當行為及維持教學秩序與教育活動正常進行之必要管教行為不予處罰這是很明確"},{"start":6371.096,"end":6384.712,"text":"那至於我剛剛提到有可能有一個專章出來我們現在也是在考慮也跟法治單位我們在研議就是說是不是把它做修法把它入進去讓它有一個保障會比較好好"},{"start":6385.993,"end":6413.163,"text":"那另外就是解聘辦法我們是改由校長來邀集外聘人員還有教師代表校長代表來召開會議先行決定這個案件是否受理可是校長沒有表決權只能表達意見可是這個設計除了與校事會議的功能有點跌床駕屋以外你會讓校長好像沒有了行政責任架空了學校的治理功能"},{"start":6413.843,"end":6432.576,"text":"使員工制度的設計的初衷是要避免校長針對老師可是校長在這個過程中好像就不用承擔任何的責任所以因為這個小組是校長召集檢舉人也還是可以去質疑校長處理不公所以"},{"start":6434.297,"end":6444.065,"text":"現在回到這事情的原點 校長要怎麼當就到底要怎麼樣避免校長爛犬的同時又要給校長兼起行任重任"},{"start":6444.946,"end":6467.979,"text":"其實委員提到重點就是其實這個我們當時在訂這個時候也遇到類似的問題就是因為也有老師說他被校長針對性的對待所以透過校師會議的一個管道在所謂的整肅老師那當然這個有這樣的現象後來我們在討論的時候說那校長他還是學校最高主管機關他是最高主管"},{"start":6469.099,"end":6496.845,"text":"所以他還是要負責召集召開會議提供資料但是他在做判斷的時候他還是可以去解釋譬如說他如果認為這個老師是基於這個合法的管教他還是可以在那邊主張他不投票他反而比較好講他負責行政這個老師他到底這樣的行為要不要進校之會還是說這個只是小瑕疵我們到考核會裡面聽他報告完之後可以做比較輕的一個處置那我想校長他還是有建議權"},{"start":6498.277,"end":6511.157,"text":"所以還是停留在監獄圈就是說當時就是一方面要怕說有些特別的其實我認為很多校長也跟我說其實他們在他們學校從來沒有老師進入過校師會議就是說所有的親事衝突的時候他們經過溝通"},{"start":6512.898,"end":6529.718,"text":"那個第一段都可以處理得很好所以我們一直希望這第一段能夠有這樣的功能這個功能裡面也有老師代表也有家長代表還有一個校外公正人士就三個那校長他主持會議的時候他認為他就可以去講這個案情讓大家知道"},{"start":6531.8,"end":6548.985,"text":"他自己不參與表決他就是但是他可以去表達他的立場表達意見對好那在上次公聽會我們就有強調就是說校事會議的制度一定要改那當然對老師的專業支持也要加強包括這個法律教學心理支持對"},{"start":6549.645,"end":6578.834,"text":"那在教師法第31條有提到說教師依法執行職務訴訟時其服務的學校應該輔助其言騙律師或幫他辯論或提供法律上的協助那並也定有這個教師因公射送的輔助辦法那我們要怎麼把這些法律支持拉到更前端讓老師他如果受到檢舉之後可以立即得到專業法律的協助"},{"start":6579.534,"end":6608.124,"text":"那上次公聽會次長你有說教育部會持續來增加預算的這個建制老師的這個輔導諮商的系統那也因為有討論說是否要把法律的這個諮詢納入這個支持系統所以我覺得這個當然很重要應該來做好 那我們相關的費用也應該由這個行政來支付那另外我們教育部有函示說如果配合事件調查這個教師是要以調課"},{"start":6609.604,"end":6637.162,"text":"跟没有客户的时间来配合调查那不宜用这个工价或休假就是不宜用工价或待客来办理那可是万一如果需要启用到待客那这个待客的费用如果最终这个老师最后他其实是没有受到解聘的处分那待客费用是不是有行政机关可以支付"},{"start":6637.822,"end":6665.365,"text":"依這個精神是應該要對嘛齁所以這個如果依這個精神到時候你們會來處理這個我想實務上怎麼樣來落實包括訴訟包括這個我想那個輔導諮商那個系統我們其實這個費用也從過去通過之後開始實施到現在一年大概六千萬那我也特別跟他們講說因為各縣市有的做得很前面有的做得很後面老師在進行這個輔導諮商系統的時候有的他"},{"start":6665.805,"end":6683.276,"text":"他是經費不夠那部分我們會再增加補助另外一條就是拉出來就是剛才你提到的雖然教師法目前裡面有對於老師的射送他有一個因公啦所以因為那個認定上的困難所以老師事實上他如果如果真的遇到校師會"},{"start":6684.537,"end":6701.763,"text":"射送大概很少會得到這個法律上的一個資源所以我們回去其實也在研究說我們是不是在教師輔導諮商系統裡面的那個計畫裡面在拉出一個法律的一個資源系統如果有一些重大的案件指標性的案件地方政府認為這個老師他"},{"start":6704.757,"end":6725.575,"text":"確實需要一些支持那我們在這個計畫裡面其實也可以直接就來支持這個老師依法來這個爭取他的權益好那另外在公聽會我上次也有出席來提到說其實很多老師認為根本的解方就是說我們應該來減少班級人數"},{"start":6726.936,"end":6753.429,"text":"因為現在一個老師面對那麼多的學生我們現在來看現在國小師生比是1比29國中是1比30公立高中是1比34你現在高中端今年下半新學年好像會再減少一人我們現在講究教育精緻化學生的樣態也越來越多元實在真的是需要下修學生人數"},{"start":6756.09,"end":6780.017,"text":"所以不曉得教育部目前對於這個有沒有想法小班的方向我們是逐漸在落實啦那也要地方政府啦因為它涉及到地方的那個經費權限啦那我們當然我們規定的那個都是下限其實有些地方政府它可以它也在減少它這些天花板就是說最多不能超過多少那如果它的現在譬如說地方"},{"start":6781.177,"end":6807.076,"text":"那個才化法通過之後它有足夠的能力跟資源如果認為應該要下降我們是予以支持啦那這部分我們至於在政策上全國性的政策上面我們是採取比較穩健下修因為那個117年那個像竹苗那個部分的高中它是會增加的116年它學年度它是會增加的所以我們在這部分也是要去考慮到各縣市它不同的狀況"},{"start":6808.056,"end":6815.948,"text":"那有的縣市它確實是一直在往下掉那往下掉的話其實學校地方這種依據它的那個財力的這個負荷它是可以往下"},{"start":6817.006,"end":6843.936,"text":"修的 他是可以 我們是支持的好 那有老師有提到說其實他現在不是每個每安置身心障礙學生一個人我們就可以減少班級人數一至三人那可是這個好像就是在這個所謂的這個身心障礙學生這個實施要點中身心障礙的學生好像是採外加名額的方式來安置"},{"start":6844.716,"end":6869.661,"text":"那這跟剛提到說一名生性障礙生就可以減少班級人數一至三人好像有點矛盾因為現在我們核定招生名額好像沒有預留彈性的狀況之下其實偏班的時候還有更沒有這個彈性去處理減少班級人數所以這個到底要說有關於生性障礙生這個安置的這個班級人數彈性調整這個如何處理"},{"start":6872.182,"end":6882.499,"text":"有沒有更具體的規劃其實我們這三年因為外加身心障礙的學生超過通案核定的班級人數屬於同一類科的他就是可以申請調降新生的這個班級人數"},{"start":6884.659,"end":6902.697,"text":"對,可以調降嘛像現在從114學年度第二學期合給導師每週減少的譬如說他可以減少那個收課結束的補助也補助了不少費用給那個地方的就是他的班級的導師"},{"start":6904.394,"end":6925.735,"text":"好 那最後想要來請教校安人員的這個問題因為過去高中有軍訓教官那現在這個就是教官退出校園那可是現在目前是用學務創新人力來承接這個預防跟輔導兒少偏差行為的任務"},{"start":6926.756,"end":6950.904,"text":"好 那這個員額配置的部分我們是採用學校教官離退一人那就至少遞補這個一人為原則嘛好 那依照過去教官員額的設置基準那公立學校是六班以下設一人那七班是十二設置一人那十三班以上再增加"},{"start":6951.784,"end":6969.161,"text":"那私立學校是350人以下至1人那超過350再增1人那現在是有第一線的私校的校安人員在反映就這個比例因為你如果就私校來看的話"},{"start":6970.462,"end":6997.98,"text":"是1比350啦那公立差不多是1比204啦那如果按照這樣的話是不是可以把私校的這個校安的這個比例調整在1比250這個不曉得教育部怎麼樣看這件事覺得怎麼配置比較好啦你讓我們一個月來來檢討如果是250的話要增加多少人跟我們來做一個"},{"start":7000.137,"end":7012.407,"text":"因為現在說真的啦校園內的這個問題這個孩子現在問題很多元樣態也五花八門所以這個校安人員如果可以增幅的話這個比例我們應該研究到一個月後來回覆委員好 謝謝好 謝謝次長謝謝主席"},{"start":7018.581,"end":7032.635,"text":"好 谢谢林益景委员的咨询请次长回座下一位我们有请蔡春筹委员进行询答稍后在吴思瑶委员询答完毕之后我们休息五分钟"},{"start":7050.643,"end":7077.044,"text":"主席好 有請次長好 有請次長委員好次長好今天就要跟次長來探討所謂的校事會議引發了很多的一個問題那麼我們今天希望就用這樣的一個機會我們來看到問題然後能夠來解決問題"},{"start":7079.406,"end":7101.227,"text":"那整個學校的氛圍我們說學校的氣候為什麼會烏煙瘴氣那這個源頭呢就是校士會議那校士會議會有這麼多的一個爭議問題是在於老師的一個受教權因為老師的受教權被壓縮了管教權"},{"start":7103.689,"end":7122.032,"text":"不好意思管教权所以呢老师呢在学校的一个服务变成没有幸福感没有成就感那我们现在其实事实上在交易基本法里面呢就已经很明确的一个有提到"},{"start":7122.552,"end":7147.462,"text":"教師專業的一個自主權自主還有學生的潛力的一個保障必須並行那在這裡呢我現在目前那個學校的一個核心問題不是老師沒有責任感也不是老師不認真而是呢教育部呢沒有貫徹制度上的一個給教師一個足夠的一個底氣跟保護"},{"start":7148.922,"end":7171.522,"text":"那在第31條的第6款那教師是教學對學生的一個輔導依法令還有那個學校的一個章責呢他是享有專業自主的所以呢我要請問次長那在整個一個校師會議的時候呢"},{"start":7174.707,"end":7184.356,"text":"那個申訴案案件過來的時候真的有把教師的一個住主權還有教師的管教權先做一個"},{"start":7185.865,"end":7208.987,"text":"一個防火牆有嗎?有給教師足夠的一個管教權嗎?好,謝謝韋雲的關心我想就是在教師會議我們那個新的制度上路之後那經過了113學年度114學年度之後我們也聽到了很多現場老師跟教師團體的反應所以我們也部長親自召開了很多這個座談會"},{"start":7210.508,"end":7233.161,"text":"我們部內也做積極研商跟各工協會來討論所以在今年的1月12號初步大概針對了一些包括爛樹的問題小案大辦的問題等等我們建立了分流的機制然後在前端進入消失會議之前我們就先去認定這個到底是屬於老師的"},{"start":7233.861,"end":7262.487,"text":"如果是屬於剛才那個林怡靜委員也有問到比如說校長在召開那個會議的時候他裡面呢他是不投票的因為也有老師說他如果被校長針對的時候他可能小試就進入校試會議了那一去就不回頭了那就折磨半年所以我們也是校長可以來主持那個會議但是他有教師代表家長代表還有一個校外公正人士去看這個室友那我剛才也提過說如果他是屬於教師之教學對學生的輔導依法令的都是他的專業自主權的"},{"start":7263.888,"end":7289.043,"text":"他依照他的職權他是老師他是不罰的不罰的時候這時候校長或者是老師的代表可以在那個分流會議上面去提到這個問題他不罰如果說只是一個小瑕疵一個行為上那就是進入一般考核就是就不進入了所以我們也公布了1到4月新制上之後新制上路之後確實有一些分流的效果"},{"start":7289.423,"end":7311.545,"text":"然後呢也達到了這個剛剛這個你們的報告裡面都有因為我們時間有限那我要請教那個次長我們過去呢我們都有給學生的一個所謂的學生手冊這個學生手冊呢就是要告訴學生他到學校呢他還是這個是義務教育嘛那學生來到學校呢他還是"},{"start":7313.727,"end":7332.559,"text":"必須接受學校一些管制那我現在是在建議我們先看到問題我們來解決問題那我是覺得現在這個學生手冊現在沒有紙本在網路上每個學校大概都有把學生手冊先布在網路上"},{"start":7335.501,"end":7357.432,"text":"那我在這裡是要建議教育部你這一個學生手冊是不是能夠把它印出來然後呢讓家長看過簽名那表示家長了解了學生到學校來應該要有的一個潛力跟義務你覺得呢"},{"start":7358.272,"end":7371.805,"text":"我想委員的建議也很好就是說不過這個每個學校因為它是依法授權他們各學校去訂定各學校的章責管教的措施辦法所以教育部可不可以這樣提醒我們可以再舉出"},{"start":7374.304,"end":7401.137,"text":"對 其實如果公告在現在網路上也很方便啦就是說你學生有時候你發給他一本他就丟掉他也不看是 現在沒有說要印只是說你要讓那個學生回去告知家長每個家長要知道要了解甚至那個以前這個手冊沒有功能嘛因為學生拿了也不看嘛也丟了嘛家長也不知道啊那我們要讓家長我們也要來教育家長啦"},{"start":7401.957,"end":7420.351,"text":"讓他知道說學生來到學校學生應該要要付的什麼權利跟義務那老師有哪些前線老師有哪些的一個管教錢然後我們三方三方都來做一個教育就是親師生啦三方的那個手冊其實我是覺得這蠻好的就是說學校在開學的時候"},{"start":7420.851,"end":7449.627,"text":"他也都會召開相關的一些親師座談等等其實可以利用我們也會跟學校講去多多利用那個機會來溝通譬如說現在教師現場上的一些一些遇到的一些問題我想學生需要鼓勵老師也需要鼓勵那校長在第一線他也比較好帶所以這個部分我們在7月的那個局處首長會議的時候我們特別來提醒這個地方首長能夠來落實這個部分"},{"start":7450.827,"end":7467.114,"text":"我們是希望說多畫面的一個輔導然後能夠減輕那個學校的一個壓力那在這裡我要請教因為最近那個鐵錢教育在我們整個社會都發酵了那在這裡我要問那個次長"},{"start":7470.856,"end":7495.251,"text":"你對於那個韓國的這個大力推動教師合理的一個管教管教者的一個經驗你的看法呢當然是支持嘛 主要是合理管教權在我們的法令規定的 譬如說我們現在的公佈的那個注意事項裡面我們第24條裡面那個阻卻違法的那個我們已經都都已經函給地方"},{"start":7495.831,"end":7510.696,"text":"所以從韓國來看,他們在2024到2026年的時候他們就通過了一個正當的教師指導的免責那在這裡我們要引用教師法第31條的第8款剛剛我們林一錦委員也有提到"},{"start":7520.239,"end":7548.461,"text":"就是說如果老師有進入到司法訴訟的時候學校是有權要來聘請律師來幫他們一個辯護但是我是覺得還沒有進入之前這一個一定要強調為什麼要強調呢強調了以後校長會覺得說我想校長他本身他也不希望說這個老師進入司法那麼校長他就會努力的來協調"},{"start":7552.645,"end":7567.238,"text":"來協調然後來調整調解家長跟教師之間這樣的一個矛盾所以我覺得這一個地方我們要給學校就是一定要來執行這一個訴訟必須要有律師相對的給校長一個潛力跟壓力"},{"start":7571.301,"end":7588.66,"text":"對我想委員關係的方向跟我們現在那天在座談會公聽會所聽到的就是這個提供除了提供老師在心理輔導智商輔導之外在法律資源上面免費的諮詢上面在法律支持上面我們也正在研議要怎麼樣來落實也要增加經費"},{"start":7590.602,"end":7599.752,"text":"因為今天大家關心的焦點都差不多剛剛秀寶委員也提到第三方的一個消失會要第三方在這裡我借用韓國的一個叫教育廳統一受理投訴這個部分第三方我個人相當支持"},{"start":7609.622,"end":7637.654,"text":"因為呢你這個校事會議案件進到學校來我們一直在強調說行政減量行政減量這一個我們有一個校長說了現在不是在教學是在辦案不是在辦學是在辦案那可見呢學校校方呢他承受的壓力有多大那如果再有第三方或是有所謂什麼叫做教育廳先把這個案件呢先擋在校外"},{"start":7638.314,"end":7655.102,"text":"那這個案件擋在校外老師、校長都不知道都不知道說他被檢舉了這一個好處就是老師仍然還是可以安心的教學他不會因為這個事件的一個影響讓他情緒低落"},{"start":7655.962,"end":7671.665,"text":"老師的情緒低落對於學生本業受教程就會影響的我想委員的建議很好啦這個所有的建議我們其實也會納入進一步我們在後續的在怎麼樣的優化來調整這整個制度的運作我們會來納入演繹"},{"start":7673.532,"end":7690.722,"text":"那當然這個過程裡面我們要給那個老師一個正當的管教我們當然也反對說有所謂的體法或者是人格的一個羞辱在這個地方我們也相當支持那最後呢"},{"start":7692.003,"end":7714.272,"text":"我本人本席是支持說教師是依法輔導還有管教學生但是就是不能夠有不當的一個體罰跟免個的一個羞辱所以教師他採取必要的一個正當還有比例原則的一個維持秩序的一個同時教一部一定是要做他最後的一個後盾"},{"start":7716.113,"end":7735.33,"text":"其實在那個我們的教師那個解聘辦法解聘不續聘辦法裡面的第四條第四款裡面就有提到教師業務上之正當行為及為了維持教學秩序教育活動正常進行之必要的管教行為是不予處罰那現在我要跟次長講我們這個校事會議在做的同時其實"},{"start":7741.295,"end":7769.036,"text":"教育部把這個教師法那個教育基本法其實都要忘掉了所以才會那麼之前會有那麼多一千多件的一個校事會議進到學校來所以我們現在就要嚴格來執行嘛來擋嘛所以呢我們要撐起老師就是撐起老師就是撐起台灣的教育好那第二題呢我要跟那個那個次長請教就是所謂教師的離線錢"},{"start":7771.618,"end":7786.324,"text":"離線前因為本辦有接受一些就是我過去也是老師回家以後常常也都接到很多家長來電"},{"start":7788.025,"end":7808.061,"text":"那一個時候呢寄來者不寄啦來店就不寄啦但是呢現在的老師呢跟我們過去的老師不一樣啦因為過去沒有校事會議嘛現在有校事會議還有很多壓力嘛有很多學生的一個問題嘛那在這個地方是不是我們能不能夠來保障老師下班了以後"},{"start":7809.181,"end":7833.406,"text":"有這麼全力說這個離縣的服務謝謝委員關心我們在6月17號的時候已經正式發函給各地方縣市政府有關老師的教師的離縣權就是說他跟教師的溝通傳簡訊的應該在上班時間我們已經明令就是地方政府能夠尊重那這個要不要就是你一定也辦完或是立法"},{"start":7833.886,"end":7862.397,"text":"對 我們將來 將來再修那個依據那個職業安全衛生法來修教師的部分的時候我們也會把這個納進去我們就是說在那個修法比較抗日廢止的情況下我們先用這個函用函的方式請地方政府去落實那當然我們知道說這也許不夠而且有的家長也不了解不過就是說學校行政機關要知道這個老師是有這個工作他的保障的如果是因為這樣被投訴他是不予追究的"},{"start":7865.199,"end":7874.87,"text":"因為這是不能具體的因為有很多老師沒有接電話然後學校以後就是免責那個校長都有話說除非是緊急的校安事件當然這個是例外"},{"start":7884.881,"end":7902.99,"text":"那在最後就是說那這一個因為老師都會跟家長都會有一個家長群的一個LINE嘛一個LINE嘛那在這裡是要建議說要不要用一個官方就是學校統一的一個LINE這樣的一個帳號這個好處是什麼這個好處能夠內建嘛內建就是說這個時間到的時候呢那都會主動"},{"start":7908.953,"end":7913.737,"text":"回復說下班這是揮漁業時間或者是還可以設定幾個問題然後讓家長在這個關關的袋裡面得到一些信息"},{"start":7923.653,"end":7939.021,"text":"我想這個建議非常好我們來跟地方政府演繹好不好來跟找看能不能有這樣類似這樣子的一個措施讓每一個學校大概依這樣的方式會比較好那希望就是說跟那個次長我們剛剛所"},{"start":7940.462,"end":7957.776,"text":"所談的都一定要嚴格的來執行不要口頭上這樣一來一往而已最後剛剛我還是要回應剛剛秀寶秀寶委員提到就是說現在氣候非常的炎熱那在這裡因為我過去我是體育老師"},{"start":7958.937,"end":7966.642,"text":"我的課都是10點一直上到10點然後中間休息1點到12點12點休息到1點然後2點3點每次在上課的時候學生心情切滑因為太熱了他也不願意在那邊曬太陽"},{"start":7976.047,"end":7990.094,"text":"雖然他們很喜歡運動但是因為天氣的關係所以這個排課的問題我希望教育部也要最後再做一個評量我們為了特別提醒各地方政府一定要以學童的安全為優先考慮"},{"start":7992.775,"end":8020.454,"text":"所以我剛剛有在跟次長講委員的關心都有關心到一點我們會朝這方面來努力所以我們希望今天這樣的一個執行都能夠給全國的所有的對於基層的老師還有關心的家長一個明確的交代我們一起來鼓勵目前老師的士氣確實不高我們盡量來鼓勵然後在行政措施上我們給予支持剛才委員提到的法律上的我們也在研議中"},{"start":8021.775,"end":8045.635,"text":"我們希望教育部能夠挽回過去所有的家長對於教育是尤其是老師是非常非常的尊重那為什麼今天老師這麼沒有地位造成教師荒那今天的報紙也有說那個物理老師那個自然科的老師一聘就有了一聘就來了"},{"start":8046.435,"end":8068.675,"text":"然後呢 其他的老師的項目呢招不到老師那因為 為什麼因為很多那個比較好的這些智能課的人他願意到科技公司啊那不願意到學校來對 教授很多因素啦當然這也是一個因素所以我們要把整個校園的氣候把它營造好嘛那我們共同來努力好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":8070.856,"end":8097.674,"text":"好 謝謝蔡春蟲委員 請次長回座那接下來有請葉元之委員進行詢答主席要慢慢請次長好 有請次長好 次長好 還有我們反撲聽到次長講說你們在那個校師會議的改革之後呢有了初步的成效"},{"start":8098.362,"end":8123.469,"text":"那我們來看一下因為你是跟去年的1到4月來比嘛投訴的案件有下降另外就是投訴的案件被送到消失會議的比例也下降去年同期是82%現在剩22%今年不受理案件有增加但是也是有一部分的投訴案件進到考核案件但我還是要提醒次長我覺得這樣的數字其實是有一個盲點第一個"},{"start":8124.605,"end":8142.724,"text":"就因為最近大家很重視校事會議這個議題然後很關心老師所以當然在這段期間我覺得爛數一定是會減少啦因為現在是社會關注嘛第二件事情啊這是一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題啊就像你沒有開車就不會車禍一樣因為現在的老師都防御式教學嘛不太敢管嘛"},{"start":8143.004,"end":8159.27,"text":"那很多之前的爛數都是因為老師管教學生學生心生不滿嘛用報復的心態去投訴那現在老師不管了不管當然就不會被報復所以投訴案件自然就下降所以我覺得教室會議不能夠以這樣的數據自瞞我覺得還是要有很多可以精進的地方"},{"start":8159.77,"end":8188.428,"text":"那我以下我就針對幾件事情我來跟你討論一下喔第一個我覺得校事會議調查時間實在太久了它的規定是說兩個月然後得延長兩個月最多是四個月可是這只是那個字面上的時間實際上校事會議什麼時候要開始調查以及報告什麼時候寫出來這是沒有一定的時間啊所以如果學校要拖的話它是可以拖非常久啊拖到半年一年都有可能那這半年一年就是對老師來說造成極大的煎熬啊"},{"start":8189.335,"end":8209.711,"text":"那我是不能認同人本基金會執行長講的什麼叫做老師就算老師被調查最後即便是爛訴也不會對老師造成任何的傷害所以叫老師不要去影響原本的親師關係這什麼話任何老師被調查越久他受到監老師越多即便是最後"},{"start":8210.632,"end":8233.188,"text":"還他清白了過程當中受到很大的傷害如果老師撐不住留著停薪啊所以這個時間的部分一定要縮短我不太懂為什麼要拖到這麼長如果如果都調查四個月半年一年都調查不出個結果代表就是沒有事啊是硬要給人家羅之於罪嗎有事就有事沒事就沒事為什麼要這麼久這個市長這可不可以就時間上"},{"start":8234.827,"end":8236.189,"text":"我們可以來檢討啦你覺得有需要到那麼久嗎時間上可以來檢討"},{"start":8244.608,"end":8264.686,"text":"整個那個兩個月加兩個月的時間你去調查一下為什麼需要這麼久好不好因為如果真的就沒有什麼事有這種複雜的案件嗎要調查到有的二到四個月然後甚至拖到一年我不認為是這樣第二個可能您去檢討一下好不好盡量縮短第二個有可能是因為"},{"start":8265.807,"end":8290.128,"text":"這個委員嘛 都要大家喬彼此開會的時間嘛對不對 然後喬來喬去的然後再來就是 這個委員當因為這個委員是不是有出席費啊你們搞一個校事會議就我了解好像委員出席費是兩千五嘛然後可以開三次嘛對 外聘嘛 最多開三次嘛 對不對寫報告的話 一千字是一千一百塊到一千六百塊嘛"},{"start":8290.808,"end":8312.595,"text":"另外如果還有這個逐字稿的費用聽打每分鐘不知道多少錢嘛那如果是外聘委員是外縣市的話還要提供住宿費、交通費、膳食費所以一場校智會議下來要搞多少錢大概要看情況嘛平均嘛看個案要不要十萬塊應該是不用吧"},{"start":8314.677,"end":8328.082,"text":"應該是不用你查一下好不好好幾萬塊一定要費用所以有沒有可能是因為這個反正我就慢慢來我會開越多我就出席費我可以領越多有沒有可能是這個狀況"},{"start":8329.853,"end":8345.268,"text":"所以我的意思是說你去了解一下我認為不需要拖到那麼久然後再一點我看到你們講的分流機制是會先從人才庫裡面挑四個人來召開會議來決定案件要不要進入校事會議那請問一下人才庫裡面到底有哪些人"},{"start":8346.973,"end":8369.053,"text":"這個為什麼不能公開?經過訓練的啦有哪些人會公開?他大概也有教師、有教育人員、法律人員、輔導都有就像譬如說我們行政院工程會他會有一個評審委員的人才庫嘛其實有什麼人大家都知道那為什麼這個校士會人才庫不能公開?"},{"start":8370.342,"end":8387.016,"text":"還有就是每一次的校事會議到底是哪一些人參與調查或者是寫報告的人是誰我覺得可以公開吧案件你可以不用講內容為什麼因為它牽涉到兒童嘛可能不方便去談內容可是哪些人參與我覺得必須要公開啊"},{"start":8387.757,"end":8406.222,"text":"因為否則的話有一些報告有一些老師很不爽他會把那個報告PO上網大家看到都覺得很離譜啊市長上次應該市長是跟您還是跟哪一位講最後有一個有一個老師被學生捅肛門啊對 捅完肛門之後然後後來他可能推人的學生吧就被這樣"},{"start":8407.702,"end":8429.184,"text":"投訴嘛那投訴之後最後報告的結果是說就是確定學生確實是有揪人去捅他肛門但是老師也不能夠推學生類似這樣那這個報告到底是誰寫的或者是哪些人參與人可以吧內容可以不要公開啦人是誰我覺得讓大家知道一下嘛好不好"},{"start":8430.182,"end":8445.873,"text":"好不好 不然的話有一些委員到底他夠不夠專業或這個委員他有沒有什麼狹隘的角度像我們人本基金會這種仇私的有沒有在這裡面 這可以公開啊好不好 這個也研究一下好不好"},{"start":8447.216,"end":8472.174,"text":"有公開 每一個會議是誰調查 去哪裡查不是調查不是調查人才庫是公開 人才公開嘛 但是每一個案件是誰寫的然後哪些人參與調查 我覺得這可以公開 這也不會有什麼影響嘛然後還有一個 剛剛我講了每一個校事會議假設他爛訴 國家付出非常多的成本老師也付出很多成本 但爛訴的人完全不用付任何的成本"},{"start":8474.059,"end":8502.731,"text":"所以這就是變相鼓勵爛訴我聽到太多爛訴都是報復比如說他可能檢舉老師可能兩年前的一個性平案件為什麼忽然間檢舉因為老師可能最近得罪他了他就會去講兩年前他被性平有的時候是報復心態最後可能調查結果是沒事但老師無緣無故接受調查但是那個爛訴的報復的把校士工具校士會議當作報復工具的人完全不用付任何成本"},{"start":8503.652,"end":8530.165,"text":"所以這有沒有一個補償機制那這補償機制是我們現在老師如果比如說他被調查他被停聘了然後後來他利用司法途徑恢復之後我們有修教司法嘛所以他之前應該領的錢是有還給他可是過程當中那種煎熬精神壓力對不對他搞不好去看身心科那請問一下都沒有補償機制嗎那爛訴的人他不用付任何成本嗎"},{"start":8532.478,"end":8557.572,"text":"這個有沒有什麼機制這個是有一些反應我們也在想說要怎麼樣子來處理我們現在就是在講那老師的那個職業安全衛生法依據那個職業安全法來保障他的那個工作那如果他工作被侵害的時候他會有一些補償或者是有一些司法的一些追訴所以這個部分我們是算你講司法就有誣告罪吧"},{"start":8557.992,"end":8580.873,"text":"但是校士會議就沒有你這個你也研究一下我們盡快我剛剛講的問題全部因為我是我希望你們的改革有成效所以我才點出我認為不足的地方就是請你們研議好不好不過剛才委員提到那個性平案我們校士會是不調查性平案件的那一樣嘛就爛訴不是校士會但是也是爛訴委員就講的是其他的內容爛訴啦好然後這個再來"},{"start":8584.009,"end":8602.071,"text":"我看到你們今天的報告有提到就是說好像你們要比較明確的去定義這個管教的事項不要讓老師變成防禦式教學變成說好像我這樣做是不是會被投訴合理管教權要保障但是這個次長我去看了一下你報告裡面的所謂的辦法全部都舊的"},{"start":8603.697,"end":8630.806,"text":"是113年2月的辦法啊對啊我們現在是115年欸你用了一個113年的辦法然後這幾年就是亂七八糟嘛那沒有改變啊這兩年我們也在收集啦就是說目前要怎麼樣子去把這個證項譬如說這24條它裡面阻缺違法所以我們現在了解宜蘭那個案件我們也在了解說這樣這樣這個我是針對你的報告你的報告的意思是說好像已經要這樣做了可是你沿用的辦法是113年的辦法"},{"start":8631.906,"end":8657.086,"text":"我們要加強宣導但是113年委員我跟你講其實113年公佈但是事實上很多學校或者說那個現場他也沒有按照這樣做所以我們好幾次發函地方政府希望他們那個能夠發函沒有用啦對對希望他們能夠依據這樣的辦法因為我們很多個案去檢視說這個不應該罰譬如說宜蘭那個委員所提到那個銅鋼門那個事件我們覺得奇怪這個24條就有啦為什麼他還去罰"},{"start":8658.027,"end":8673.966,"text":"所以你的意思是說你現在要開始落實落實24條甚至在23條的正向管教那個部分要落實就對了那我來舉幾個例子喔你今年這個說1月到4月開始改革嘛"},{"start":8674.266,"end":8697.216,"text":"但今年三月有一個老師 最近有一個老師跟我反映啦他是三月發生的事情 是他什麼狀況呢 他在跌倒了禮堂然後滑手機然後後來呢就有學生呢指控他什麼手機指控老師給學生看手機裡面他的私密照片所以呢學生認為受到性騷擾那這個狀況是這樣子 就是其實"},{"start":8700.478,"end":8712.022,"text":"學生指控的是比較久以前的事情但是在可能前一段時間老師就有管教學生所以學生就去投訴了這個事但因為禮堂也沒有監視器所以"},{"start":8713.953,"end":8738.921,"text":"後來在調查的時候那就都採用學生說法因為兩邊講的不一樣嘛都採用學生說法然後最後事實認定是這樣啦他說這個被申請調查人以十個老師在學生可見範圍內操作手機卻曾使學生看見其手機涉及裸露身體或者是什麼什麼私密照片然後所以就是性騷擾那老師就說我不知道學生在看啊"},{"start":8740.465,"end":8766.448,"text":"老師在滑手機然後可能學生瞄到還是怎麼樣還是不知道都根本不知道這樣就直接被認定了所以這個性平法對這個就非常的模糊就是說好像現在只要講性平怎樣都可以認定那我今天比如說次長假設等一下我一張聊天然後你剛好滑手機有人不要說有人就可能很多群組有些人會傳一些那種照片被我瞄到我就說這樣你對我性騷擾"},{"start":8767.549,"end":8783.445,"text":"然後我就檢舉你性病委員不會這樣子啦不是啦 我不會啦可是這種狀況老師就委員提的這個個案我們去了解一下啦是太寬鬆了我覺得該保護的要保護可是有點太寬鬆還有一個啦"},{"start":8785.387,"end":8814.528,"text":"那個高雄的一個林老師啊前一段時間被衛生局強勸送醫的這個案件你知道嗎那個在那個嚴老師公祭的前幾天被因為他問說學校最高樓層是幾樓大家懷疑大家擔心他所以就有勸他去送醫你知道他也被檢舉性貧你知道理由是什麼嗎理由是說因為他是個網紅啊所以很多人去他臉書留言其中有一個留言說某某人身材很好然後他按了讚所以他就被認為有性騷擾或者是違反性貧啊"},{"start":8816.018,"end":8844.355,"text":"按讚不見的代表是認同吧有時候按讚有些人按讚只是表示說這個謝謝你來留言或者是說我看到了這個這種調查也很多人都覺得是完全不符合現在的事但他因為這樣子喔那個老師因為被那個校長之前是調查霸凌事件然後他想要轉校結果忽然間又被調查性平調查性平又凍結這個轉校嘛那原因是因為他按了讚"},{"start":8845.729,"end":8857.942,"text":"這就太模糊了好不好我覺得我們講這個東西不管是性平也好校士會議也好其實都跟你講的這一條有關嘛太模糊了大家就防禦式教學嘛然後老師現在常常問一個問題啊譬如說署長在睡覺"},{"start":8859.145,"end":8888.488,"text":"然後假設他是學生那我去叫他起來然後署長就說你碰到我我要告你性貧那老師因為怕他告性貧所以乾脆不叫不叫之後家長就說你為什麼不理我的兒子你是不是故意要冷暴力他又檢舉然後不然呢家長就叫同學去叫同學去叫然後家長就說你為什麼叫同學來叫你是不是刻意叫同學來霸凌我那你覺得市長現在如果學生在睡覺的話要怎麼叫學生起床"},{"start":8890.465,"end":8902.478,"text":"你告訴我你告訴我嘛對啊我想多數老師都知道合理管教的範圍啦多數老師你去調查一下多數老師知不知道好不好"},{"start":8903.68,"end":8927.468,"text":"你去我剛剛問的問題你可以去問一下多數老師知不知道現在教學狀況怎麼處理委員提的問題是都是比較特例啦沒有特例喔也沒有特例這個就是大家說哇如果這樣子發展下去就是這樣所以真的要把它明確化我們也是在努力啦就是說只要是合理管教學要把它明確化因為我剛剛舉的不是特例就是個案啊我們會保障他在這方面不受到追究欸"},{"start":8928.608,"end":8952.774,"text":"然後就要明確啦 好不好然後最後啊 我跟你請教一下因為現在行政院有推一個第五級保全嘛他是鼓勵退休軍警嘛 到學校那其實我支持他的方向因為他們有看到校園裡面日益複雜的校安問題比如說毒品啊 惡霸這種的就是針對毒品的事情毒品或惡霸這種嘛那他為什麼鼓勵退休軍警因為他們之前受過訓練那"},{"start":8954.514,"end":8981.163,"text":"我覺得我有一些大家有擔心的點是說如果由軍警直接進來是不是學校變成被執法對我知道我的意思是說既然因為這也是我之前長期爭取的書長應該也知道國中的校安人員是有一個創新能力但是六十班才一個以前我們一直講不夠現在國中其實非常複雜要增加要增加然後行政院有注意到現在的人力不夠他才會想到第五級保全"},{"start":8982.063,"end":9008.868,"text":"所以趁這個機會請教育部去跟行政院爭取預算你說那不然這樣子是不是教育部可以就是行政院可以給教育部預算讓教育部可以讓國中可以增聘校安人員而校安人員鼓勵軍警來擔任因為他看到問題了嘛那我們現在人力不足問題只是說用什麼方式進來校園協助那如果是校安人員我非常支持啊因為校安人員是配合學校在做學生的"},{"start":9010.133,"end":9031.784,"text":"輔導 工作然後他第一線也可以面對複雜的比如說幫派問題 毒品問題所以這個方向請次長 你爭取一下好不好如果第五級保全大家疑慮那麼大的話你直接跟直接增加國中校園員我也知道嘛 我也爭取過就我們從114學年度開始就開始一位啊 我知道啊對 國中的 對創新能力 這不夠嘛因為這個都討論過啦因為高中又"},{"start":9036.026,"end":9058.183,"text":"主點會再增加2592個專任輔導教師跟專業輔導人員不夠 校安人員不一樣 好不好反正行政院有提了嘛你說第五級保全如果大家自愛難行 無法推你去爭取校安人員這個比較實際啦好 謝謝好 謝謝葉園志委員的質詢請次長回座下一位有請吳思堯委員進行詢答"},{"start":9066.772,"end":9095.961,"text":"好 謝謝主席請張亮次長好 有請次長委員好好 大家辛苦謝謝昭偉今天在我們上一次的公聽會之後今天具體的安排專案會議讓我們部分黨派的委員可以聚焦校事會議的改革來提出我們建設性的意見首先就程序上來講依據立法委員的職權行使法"},{"start":9096.921,"end":9118.359,"text":"我们对于行政部门送来行政命令之审查我们可以从被查改审查但它还是有一定的期限那如果我们要把它调整为更正要求更正或是废止它必然有一个前提就是说行政部门这个行政命令是违反变更或抵触法律的"},{"start":9118.999,"end":9133.848,"text":"所以我們就必須看當初校士會議下一頁校士會議的話說從頭校士會議從無到有如果今天立法委員對於校士會議的存費要提出看法就要看看有沒有來抵觸"},{"start":9136.27,"end":9153.624,"text":"2019我们跨党派的委员所修订的教师法的第四章对于教师所有解聘的所有的机制所以我认为我们还是要回到一个法律的层面去讲如果说行政部门提出来的这个解聘办法"},{"start":9154.204,"end":9182.165,"text":"之前办法也就是校事会议的授权没有抵触母法其实立法委员要做的就是负责任的提出合理可行建设性的资讯给行政部门这是程序上我的提醒而就实质面我们在法源的授权就2019的教师法修订那个时候我印象非常深刻上一届的立法这是上一届上上届"},{"start":9183.331,"end":9196.369,"text":"其實我們在這個辦公室的table上當時的張亮萬監次長您是立委您當印象很深刻我們坐在這個桌子上針對教師法第四章的修正我們討論了好多次鉅細靡遺"},{"start":9199.193,"end":9221.786,"text":"当初之所以认为我们要革新教评会发生的调查跟审议合并可能产生失失相互的状况所以呢没有办法解决处理不适任教师的现况我们才另外拉出了校士会议 性评会 考核会 三轨"},{"start":9222.526,"end":9246.939,"text":"处理不同的案件而让调查跟审议分流之后经校事会议他负责调查而且引进专业的第三方的公证人员尽可能更独立客观就能够避免制度的设计是要避免过去的老路调查审议合并施施相互你更没有办法解决教育现场的问题"},{"start":9247.899,"end":9273.055,"text":"所以制度沒有100分正因為制度沒有100分消事會議上路之後行政部門兩次的修正而我看到今年1月的修正對於匿名檢舉健全受理的程序要盡可能要落實完善案件的分流而且導入輔佐人的參與機制還有資訊的揭露等等"},{"start":9274.266,"end":9299.931,"text":"我認為教育部是有努力要去補強整個制度讓它完善但是還是沒有做到100分所以我要建設性的提出優化校事會議而不是汙名化校事會議的一些問題的診斷第一個診斷當然是要重建校園的信任所以對於教師不敢教"},{"start":9300.911,"end":9323.74,"text":"或是不敢管的这种作为要尽可能的减少滥诉而且有效的进行案件的分流重建校园的信任关系而不是我很不乐见现在的讨论的方法有可能没有米平校园的冲突反而是加剧了亲师生的对立我非常不乐见"},{"start":9324.62,"end":9340.751,"text":"所以說整段問題面對問題解決問題更重要的是建立教師的支持系統法律面教學面跟心理面還有也要解決學校端行政負擔過重的問題這是問題面我們來看解方下一面"},{"start":9342.405,"end":9358.744,"text":"請教育部具體的針對本席提出的三大改革要納入你們的精進作為第一個教師的支持型的制度要能夠完善它我看到你們這一次有導入了輔佐人的機制對不對"},{"start":9359.949,"end":9387.297,"text":"辅佐人当然也就是本席所说的教师的法律辅助必须制度化当然我也看到教师公会说辅佐人到底谁可以当辅佐人公会来委请的律师能不能当辅佐人OK吗对不对我们应当鼓励教师可以善用辅佐人的机制次长还不知道再告诉回答我们辅佐人哪些人可以陪同老师去面对校事会议的调查辅佐人还有哪些人可以做"},{"start":9388.077,"end":9405.926,"text":"教師也可以教師也可以家長代表也可以家長也可以律師也可以被調查的老師他認為他需要法律的支持或者是心理的支持他可以勇敢的去請輔助人我認為這個要做而且要全面的讓老師的這個武器更對等"},{"start":9409.128,"end":9434.802,"text":"然後呢對於教學面調查期間不要讓老師去影響了教學現在的待課機制完善了嗎這是我提出必須做的很多老師他在受調查的期間也許會影響他教學的一個品質對於受調查期間的待課機制確保學生的受教權這個是不是你們納入精進的方案"},{"start":9435.422,"end":9458.75,"text":"對基本上我們是希望他在客戶外調查客戶內不受調查如果真的是影響了必須待課的時候我們會有一個我認為需要好不好如果老師提出他真的在調查的過程當中心理的負擔很大他的教學沒有辦法focus我認為勇敢的提供待課的機制是需要的因為這是確保老師的權益之外更是確保學生的受教權"},{"start":9459.71,"end":9487.098,"text":"好心理諮商的資源要常態化而不是事後來補救我想這個我已經耳提面命了非常多次第二大改善的面向在建立有效的分流的機制調查要分流資訊的揭露也要分流從輕微案件一般案件重大案件都要有效的去進行它一來是"},{"start":9488.758,"end":9503.268,"text":"讓小案不會大辦對不對而且讓調查可以更有效率更有品質之外我也很在乎對於資訊的揭露本席希望你們能夠針對教師本人能夠取得完整的調查報告一定要"},{"start":9504.088,"end":9525.253,"text":"對於學校內必須提供去識別化後的資訊讓校園來檢討對於社會面在保護兒少的前提下也要公開很多學校來進行調查的資訊讓全社會可以檢視就我所提出的分流調查跟分級揭露你們能不能夠來演繹我們納入演繹好嗎好"},{"start":9527.153,"end":9543.668,"text":"第三當然是我們的制度要能夠滾動的進行量化的指標跟定期的影響評估是不是也承諾要來做是我們也一直在收集好所以我希望負責任的立委我不想要藉由我們的質詢不斷的去擴大對立"},{"start":9546.09,"end":9563.482,"text":"天平的兩端有親師生我們都要維持他的恆平而不是某讓天平朝某一端過度的傾斜這都不是我們樂見的所以我個人真的包括那天公聽會大家的意見"},{"start":9564.423,"end":9586.508,"text":"多數的意見是認為校事會議是要改革是要優化而不是全面推翻跟廢止我希望我們勇敢大破大立的來做改革最後一個我來講一下SEL下一頁SEL導入了我們的課程之後其實這才是從源頭解決校園的衝突"},{"start":9587.628,"end":9612.489,"text":"從老師跟學生建立他自我覺察自我管理社會覺察人際關係處理的技巧跟負責任的decision making這種理論上實務上都經過相當驗證的SEL教學促進師生的心理韌性你們現在下一頁五年級的計畫4.2億我希望你們能夠持續跟強化的推動好嗎"},{"start":9616.952,"end":9634.568,"text":"我們從2023思堯倡議推動之後把國際的經驗帶入台灣我更要分享給你們就在上一週下一頁上一週有個歐盟社會情緒素養國際研討會的主席瑪莉亞她來到台灣她來拜訪思堯"},{"start":9635.99,"end":9658.828,"text":"正因為教育部在我們的努力催生之下讓台灣的SEL情緒社會情緒教育能夠向下導入融入課程這個瑪莉亞她非常的她非常的肯定台灣可以把我們的成功的SEL推動的經驗向外輸出"},{"start":9660.109,"end":9675.349,"text":"我請次長在這裡署長在這裡持續的來協助我們深化五年期的社會情緒學習中長城計畫我要感謝國教院特別成立了社會情緒學習的研究室來統籌推動"},{"start":9677.452,"end":9697.474,"text":"社會情緒教育在台灣我也要肯定國教署以及各縣市政府陸續成立了18個社會情緒學習資源中心跟56所種子學校但是只有18個社會情緒學習資源中心代表有四個縣市沒有你們知道哪四個縣市沒有嗎"},{"start":9699.715,"end":9714.931,"text":"你们回去查清楚因为你们也还没有提供给我查清楚SEL在校园有好的推动的实证当然最后国力有限民力无穷结合民间资源结合大学的"},{"start":9715.952,"end":9732.583,"text":"這個USR計畫結合我們NGO的量能然後結合家長志工台灣特殊的經驗是我們的SEL校園的社會情緒教育是透過大量的家長志工進到學校去幫忙學生跟老師"},{"start":9733.243,"end":9746.829,"text":"而不是要讓老師另外又多了一個SEL他還要寫教案他要去研討會他要去做這個課程我們大量的引入有經驗的家長志工團體進入學校我認為"},{"start":9748.451,"end":9767.305,"text":"這是對的方向所以我肯定大家我們面對校事會議的同時我再說一次負責任的立法委員是提出建設性的意見終整各界的解方讓你們作為制度精進的參考我真的不希望大家一刀兩斷式的"},{"start":9769.403,"end":9782.206,"text":"全面推翻或是污名化妖魔化校室會議的一個設立的初衷而源頭是什麼我再次向教育部肯定也"},{"start":9783.089,"end":9800.184,"text":"监督你们SELSocial Emotional Learning在台湾的校园在国际的社会是实证可以有效解决学生的情绪问题可以有效的提升师生之间的彼此同理"},{"start":9800.945,"end":9823.67,"text":"能夠有效的解決校園的衝突最後是不是請次長再承諾我們預算五年4.2億啦還好那是前年就經過的預算通過的預算不會受到今年沒審的影響強化推動我們強化推動那委員的關心跟我們目前的進度掌握你都非常清楚那我們在這個計畫114到118裡面的每年的計畫我們滾動的檢討如果機會不足我們也是會再想辦法的爭取"},{"start":9830.591,"end":9855.844,"text":"這個瑪莉亞教授今天現在應該還在飛機上她這一趟到台灣來採訪謝謝教育部來協助安排她感受到台灣推動校園的SEO教育的付出我們台灣Can Help把好的經驗推廣到國際一起加油 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝吳思耀委員的質詢請次長回座依照先前的宣告現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10250.78,"end":10272.219,"text":"好現在繼續開會下一位我們有請吳佩奕委員進行詢答謝謝主席我請教育部長廖萬堅次長好有請次長"},{"start":10276.772,"end":10304.74,"text":"委員好 市長好這個今天我們的質詢主題是校師會議教師輔導管教制度學校權益相關的討論那事實上我想很多的今天的討論源起於就是2019年教師法的修法那我放在那個時候的報紙這個全版的當時這個報紙下一個標題說教師與家長兩台火車對撞那我想對於教育來講我們最希望的是"},{"start":10305.98,"end":10314.512,"text":"這個教師、家長、學生、校方大家在同一台列車上才能夠安全的往前來前進那"},{"start":10316.867,"end":10339.092,"text":"2023年這也是在我進入立法院之前我們教委會就有辦過一場公聽會我看當時的洪維斌執行長他指出說解聘辦法上路前後的差別他們感受到的是第一個就是說過往學校在處理師生管教事件第一個首重的是輔導先行那溝通理解"},{"start":10340.012,"end":10361.354,"text":"那有時候這可以迅速來解決相關的爭議不過他們感受到的是教師解評辦法上路之後好像投訴案件是不分輕重大小只要有投訴案如果沒有調查報告沒有懲處的這個審議好像主管機關就不給他們解除列管所以好像只要有投訴就要有這個結果出來"},{"start":10361.974,"end":10373.428,"text":"所以當時他們就建議說投訴案件應該要分流來處理那麼直到昨天全教總在記者會上面我覺得指出問題同樣是一樣的就是說"},{"start":10374.864,"end":10394.869,"text":"教師不是拒絕監督而是說當體制陷入了一個防衛的氛圍有時候這個調查的時間已經給他們造成很大的心理的壓力所以我們最重要就是分流跟防止濫訴那教育部你們也看到這個問題所以今年1月我們最主要的修辦法就是在解決這個問題你們做了哪些調整"},{"start":10397.587,"end":10411.915,"text":"我想在書面報告裡面也提到了就是包括取消了匿名投訴還有那個大小案的分流還有增加輔佐人機制還有很多的相關的措施我想這個在上路之後我們也"},{"start":10413.656,"end":10437.453,"text":"初步看到就是說這個投訴的案件減少然後在分流之後就是過去的投訴案件跟現在投訴案件比起來降了大概55%然後送到消失會議的剩下22%所以我們是看那個數字的趨向就是說我們在聽了很多各界的意見包括老師的意見之後做了修正之後"},{"start":10438.414,"end":10456.469,"text":"初步是有感受到那個分流有造成那個結果這個數字是有在減少不過呢這個拒絕爛訴這個讓他的理由可以更明確我覺得這個還是教育部要來去協助校方的那我覺得我們可以參考幾個機制第一個是這個我們司法機關"},{"start":10457.23,"end":10482.282,"text":"其實有這個機制像例如我們民事訴訟法我們行政訴訟法都有明確去定義爛訴什麼是爛訴比如說基於惡意你是來報復的你不當目的中大過失等等有一個明確的定義但這些都還是抽象的所以法院在做的時候它會有實務見解依據過去的一些案例把它整理出來如果是屬於這些案例的經驗我過去就已經判定它是爛訴了那我未來你只要進來的時候我也許可以參考這個及這個過去的解釋"},{"start":10486.744,"end":10501.576,"text":"所以我是建議教育部我們是不是可以來去整理跟收集你們過去相關的這些裁判跟是決議讓未來學校他去判定因為學校也有壓力嘛我如果說這個是爛數等一下人家說我吃爛怎麼辦"},{"start":10502.677,"end":10520.715,"text":"所以怎麼樣它可以合理我建議你們可以去收集相關的資料然後讓學校更明確能夠去定義能夠去這個去設定一個標準那再來是說呢這個像日本跟韓國有一個制度我其實覺得很不錯就是學校律師"},{"start":10521.916,"end":10548.613,"text":"剛剛前面司法委員也有提到給教師支持法律支持也是很重要那韓國他們也是這兩年才上路的嘛他學校律師主要是給教師的支持系統就當老師遇到法律糾紛的時候這個學校律師可以來提供資訊日本的方式他的學校律師他是由日本的律師聯合會等於是律師公會來主動跟校園來合作簽約嘛那他的角色比較像調解人"},{"start":10549.253,"end":10564.099,"text":"還是要以兒童的最佳利益來協助學校就是說學校在很多投訴實際案件發生之前的時候有發生相關的狀況可能學校律師就可以來協助這部分教育部有沒有了解委員剛才媒體也問我這個問題就是我們在公聽會跟座談會的時候"},{"start":10566.66,"end":10594.34,"text":"事實上也有老師或團體提到就是說有這樣的一個機制所以我當時也說我支持就是說我們會不會來研議就是說在我們教師法修法之後雖然有把這個教師心理智商輔導的這個建制納進去那我們現在是不是也可以仿照韓國日本這樣的模式在跟工協會一起合作或者是跟這個縣市政府看他們能不能提供一些比較也有專業素養譬如我們現在有一些講習的"},{"start":10595.621,"end":10617.535,"text":"做那個不適任教師的那些人我覺得教育部可以趕快來研議甚至我們主任來跟律師公會律師聯合會他們來討論我們在朝這個方向會來努力來協助那這部分我想就是橫憑就是說不要讓老師覺得好像說我只要只要好像被投訴我就是有罪推定那種感受雖然"},{"start":10619.517,"end":10639.775,"text":"有些外界不認為是這樣但他們會有那種感受所以如果說我們能夠比較熟悉校園法令的律師能夠在各縣市都建立諮詢系統甚至呢遇到一些法律事件的時候能夠幫他們爭取權益我覺得這是一個一個橫平而且是適當的措施我們會去研議而且現在已經在在"},{"start":10640.456,"end":10659.868,"text":"再想辦法來明年看能不能就開始這個學校律師這個制度我想很重要那確實如次長剛剛講的這個主觀感受有時候各有不同所以訂定明確的標準我覺得很重要那麼其中今天要特別提出來討論就是有關於這個最早這個1995年訂教師法的時候裡面就有"},{"start":10661.949,"end":10683.049,"text":"教學不立這個法律這個名詞那麼我們在修教師法的時候當時教學不立是不是要納進來我們這個停解聘的這個調查程序當中其實也多有所討論那我今天要特別來提醒次長的是因為當時本來教師不立你們這個教學不立後面的流程你有一個專審會"},{"start":10684.89,"end":10712.138,"text":"專審會主要的制度是來輔導嘛對不對因為我希望他提升教學品質假設真的教學不利我要他改善我要能夠來輔導協助他但是後來你們帶入了這個校師會議機制之後前面就開始先調查了但是呢當時在修教師法的時候其實立法院有給一個附帶決議要求教育部針對教學不利要去做更明確的定義結果呢我去把它翻出來看了"},{"start":10713.14,"end":10741.585,"text":"在修法前後你們關於教學不利教育部有沒有去調整有沒有去設定更明確的標準沒有耶你們只是把教學不利的定義本來12項改成11項刪掉了1項就是因重病那其他的例如說這個好例如說青獅溝通不良情節嚴重者請問溝通不良要怎麼定義什麼樣叫做情節嚴重然後呢這個教學行為失當請問什麼樣的行為叫做失當"},{"start":10742.705,"end":10759.341,"text":"然後呢你班級經營欠佳這個也叫教學不力怎麼樣班級經營叫欠佳當時立法院2019年就已經要求你們教育部要去訂定更明確的標準市長當時您也是立法委員您也是這個附帶決議的連署人"},{"start":10761.724,"end":10773.6,"text":"所以今天必須要提醒教育部你們並沒有依照當時立法院的審查這個修法的附帶結語去把教學規定定的更明確我請署長說明一下好請說明委員長這個的確非常的重要所以在當年"},{"start":10777.725,"end":10796.097,"text":"依據附帶決議就去找法治專家幫我們演繹在前言裡面就去做一點跟以前不一樣的區隔並且在條文內有條文不同的這個敘寫但是我也講得很好所以這一次在輔導管教的注意是向上就要對這一類包含老師的班級經營輔導管教跟教學的進行"},{"start":10799.259,"end":10803.344,"text":"這都慢了啦2019年就要做的事這個在實務上這個你們比我們更清楚你定義不明確的時候在實務上就會造成很多的糾紛那最後一點就是我要拜託教育部的有關於教師的行政減量這個教育部也很重視你們也開了分區座談會嘛"},{"start":10817.439,"end":10839.89,"text":"好 當時這個單頭縣的這個教師有提出幾個建議後來呢單頭縣政府確實也公告 例如說這個交案不用再交了然後這個課程計畫本來就是被審結果地方政府一堆都把他搞了十字審查來回修改就花一堆時間我現在要拜託教育部的是說這個你們 我們國教署可不可以你們可不可以用這個行政命令的行政辦法的行政指導的方式你們直接來公告了啦"},{"start":10840.39,"end":10861.127,"text":"因為現在好多縣市政府你知道他們的那個老師都在tag他們的首長說啊拜託一下看到南投縣有這個公告好羨慕連我們蔣灣市長也都被老師tag他說台北市什麼時候要跟進每個縣市都在問那其實我們都認為是對的事情要做的是不是教育部可以趕快跟這個地方政府來溝通行政指導有一些我們有共識的就可以來先行的"},{"start":10861.727,"end":10877.059,"text":"委員講這個其實在兩個月前我們就處理一波但是委員有特別講到地方政府應該有更明確的態度這個我們來了解實務上他拿到那個函之後他們具體的做法怎麼樣因為現在到七月份我們要讓他確實可以去落實趕快來跟地方政府討論大家發函了你們就發函對沒錯謝謝委員謝謝市長謝謝昭文謝謝"},{"start":10886.69,"end":10892.995,"text":"好謝謝吳佩儀委員質詢請次長回座下一位我們有請范雲委員進行詢答謝謝張偉有請次長好有請次長"},{"start":10903.463,"end":10923.797,"text":"市長好我想今天還是繼續跟您討論校事會議就如同上次公聽會我有提到的我想最近校園的很多憾事還有鐵拳教育雖然大家對解放有不同的看法可是的確呈現了民主社會當中師生衝突跟校園的許多議題"},{"start":10924.838,"end":10951.124,"text":"那我想我們回顧一下校師會議的制度的改革其實就是因為不適任教師的處理不足那過去有師師相護有重案侵犯那社會也長期的質疑所以我們2020年制定2024年又修法那它是有它的原因那我們也知道到現在為止各種討論我們看到校師會議的改革那不應該停留在廢除與否"},{"start":10951.964,"end":10978.843,"text":"因為有重要的是還是要回應原本的不適合教師的問題但是也要處理很多老師在第一線看到的爛訴小案大辦是不是變成就是校園霸凌的工具教師權益受損然後學校忙於辦案等等這些問題其實謝謝教育部剛剛的報告我們從教育部報告看到1月修法後"},{"start":10979.403,"end":11006.184,"text":"进入校事会议的比例确实下降但是学校我最近也跟第一线的教师数次座谈他们还是觉得会遇到行政的压力学校办的行政压力还有反复不实投诉等问题次长应该知道我从去年就提出第三方机制我认为一个好的第三方机制应该要包括受理审查"},{"start":11006.804,"end":11028.263,"text":"案件分流还有第三跟第四我之前没有机会讲的调解其实最近我跟家长的座谈他们也提到很多小问题如果有适当的调解跟支持不管是心理支持法律咨询行政陪同亲师沟通的话那甚至都不需要正式的调查"},{"start":11029.183,"end":11051.209,"text":"可是次長您就是過去當任立委關心教育問題應該非常的了解好的調解跟支持需要雙方的信任所以怎麼樣的人選跟專業能夠得到雙方的信任設計上就非常的重要當然我想教育部一直在提升調查的品質跟相關的訓練那可是"},{"start":11052.009,"end":11071.646,"text":"就是几个小时的训练虽然你们认为足够了可是还是会有大家有不信任的问题所以我今天其实这个质询是希望最近大家关心铁拳教育但是戏剧化的铁拳教育跟现实中韩国的制度差异非常的大"},{"start":11072.447,"end":11093.33,"text":"那我的辦公室看到他的確有教育活動保護的制度設計可是不是影片中呈現的那比較特別的是針對濫訴老師感覺到有濫用程序的行為那同樣也可以交給第三方機制來審議調解那需要處置的時候再處置"},{"start":11094.491,"end":11121.22,"text":"那因为时间的缘故我想再特别讲一下第三方机制的六个好处就是学校可以从高度冲突的压力场域中解放出来那它保护了学生也保护了老师那它有专业的分流避免我们过去看到的一些汉式中的小案大办或是大案小办那蛮重要就是四跟五调解跟支持这个功能应该要制度化"},{"start":11122.22,"end":11138.437,"text":"還有調查是不是能夠回歸專業有行政專人專職處理那這部分我其實今天就只有一個訴求我希望教育部就是可以持續演繹那多做一些民主國家的國際比較"},{"start":11139.778,"end":11160.663,"text":"因為全球其實現在的學生跟老師真的面臨很大的壓力跟過去不一樣那我們不是倒退而是找出更好的解方教育部能夠承諾繼續研議包含做國際比較作為可能的修正跟精進的方向嗎是的委員的建議非常好其實你提到了調解"},{"start":11161.263,"end":11183.416,"text":"其實現在我們在那個1月12號公布的時候其實有增加一個調和就是說希望在進入消失會議之前有一個調和機制那您提的第三方機制是在外面在一個縣市底下如果那個調解的功能能夠發揮這個我們過去沒有想到那但是呢我們也在研議其實署長也是我們也在跟縣市政府討論說如果有縣市政府現在的案件"},{"start":11184.116,"end":11204.255,"text":"分流之後感覺比較少那將來的分流如果各縣市不多的話那有沒有辦法讓各縣市來承接那他第一步呢還可以強化他的我們校園內的調和以外他還有一個校園外的調解那這樣讓專業人員包括我們剛才那個也媒體關心跟一些委員關心那個律師的法律資源那法律資源有時候是協調"},{"start":11205.637,"end":11220.659,"text":"那這樣子會不會比較好我們會來努力我想請次長多了解就是民主國家的一些好的制度就是調解最重要就是要被信任那他如何信任從心理的支持對教學現場的了解"},{"start":11221.34,"end":11246.294,"text":"到相關的法律等等還有他的權益保障我想這部分如果沒有相當的專業上被信任立場上被信任的話那其實我們都知道校長出面調解教育局出面調解都是會被質疑偏袒其中的一方所以這個好的制度設計需要了解現在最大的危機是在信任那怎麼重建第一線的信任"},{"start":11247.274,"end":11271.785,"text":"讓教學回歸到教育本身我想是師生家長其實都共同關切的我想我們繼續來研議就是像這樣的一個第三方機制它的內容它的功能定位我們會來做一些那教育部如果做這個國際比較可以多久之內給我一個初步的報告好嗎一個月好不好一個月好那謝謝次長一起加油好謝謝"},{"start":11279.151,"end":11297.49,"text":"下一位有请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在下一位黄杰委员黄杰委员黄杰委员不在下一位钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员不在现在我们休息十分钟"},{"start":11312.399,"end":11327.865,"text":"好那我重新宣告因為我們的羅廷偉召委有到現場那請求是不是可以代理主持謝謝羅召委好沒有下一位就你謝謝"},{"start":11344.4,"end":11350.117,"text":"有請吳立華召委謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":11355.129,"end":11380.103,"text":"市長好剛才您做的一個專題報告那最後一段你是這麼說的未來本部將持續觀察制度運作情形滾動檢討相關措施在保障兒少權益的同時兼顧教師專業與程序正義共同營造友善安全"},{"start":11380.703,"end":11406.99,"text":"有秩序的校園環境沒錯嗎那因為上個禮拜羅廷偉召委有安排校事會議相關的公聽會那今天呢我們又再次安排校事會議的專題報告那最主要的原因就是因為校事會議呢從去年初一直到現在即便我們做了相關的修正跟重新的公佈"},{"start":11407.89,"end":11423.233,"text":"但是呢仍旧在校园里面引发很多的讨论那我们之所以会这么急迫一而再再而三的来安排也是因为我们希望上次所做的附带决议就是七月份"},{"start":11423.854,"end":11450.304,"text":"我们希望可以看到相关的一个重新的修订所以公聘会收整了很多学者专家的意见今天的专报我们也听到很多立法委员他们所带来的意见所以在这个地方我就是特别想要提醒教育部看起来目前我们的儿少权益跟教师的专业目前看起来好像是两相害"},{"start":11451.084,"end":11473.099,"text":"但是呢我們不一定要兩害相權取其輕啊我們應該是要尋求雙贏所以呢我覺得不管是事前的準備風險的控管那教育部堅守原則主動承擔風險其實都能夠達到一個尋求雙贏那我們既不要鐵拳教育也不應該花拳秀腿"},{"start":11473.519,"end":11488.948,"text":"我覺得教育的專業我們的目的都是為了我們的孩子好所以這是我們共同的目標那我特別就是想要在今天我也提出一些我希望重新去審視修進的部分我們都很清楚知道"},{"start":11491.064,"end":11515.421,"text":"108年的这个教师法修正它最主要的原因就是过去我们为了要解决不适任教师的问题我们是透过教评会但是我们发现那时候争议很多大家都会说怕失失相互或者是有同侪的压力或者是怕说什么对学生不公平之类的所以也讨论了很久"},{"start":11516.081,"end":11545.261,"text":"那108年的時候呢我知道教育部做了修正那時候我也還沒進來但是我進來立法院的時候109年已經發布施行了就是有所謂的校事會議那這個校事會議我們雖然啟動了去年我其實也主動要求要修法那也很謝謝教育部其實速度也很快1月初就發布那4月呢你們也做出了一個統計跟去年同期相比的資料我想說的是"},{"start":11546.241,"end":11565.074,"text":"其實不論如何雖然比例下降但是那是處理教師不是處理家長所以我其實也想要來看一下到底有了校士會議之後不當管教事件它的情況是如何我們可以看110年"},{"start":11566.795,"end":11569.377,"text":"2100多件111年2500多件112年4100多件1134 4500多件那次長你應該很了解"},{"start":11581.431,"end":11598.367,"text":"照理說我們是靈體法那我們也不斷地去強調不能夠做不當管教我們也有教師法照理說應該是越來越不會有不當管教的世界因為老師也沒那麼笨嘛"},{"start":11599.668,"end":11620.617,"text":"但是案件數卻越來越多這個就很奇怪所以這個就表示什麼呢大家講爛訴爛訴爛訴確實是會有爛訴的問題好那現在我覺得除了爛訴我們已經取消所謂的匿名檢舉不受理但是爛訴到底要不要究責次長您覺得"},{"start":11624.366,"end":11649.825,"text":"我認為濫訴的定義如果是故意為之的話那當然是應該要有責任所以我們在修訂的時候會處理到這個問題嗎惡意為之的話會處理到這個問題嗎因為這個我們法律上要去定義這個去追究可能要有法律授權譬如說你要去對家長罰款或者採取一些法律行動所以我們當時也在想說怎麼樣去進一步去落實保障"},{"start":11650.565,"end":11672.859,"text":"教師工作權 所以在那個法律平台也有建議說要修那個職業安全衛生法我們也覺得有道理所以目前我們也在落實 如果說有危害到老師的工作去侵犯他的工作權 或者說去傷譬如說我們講離線權 你不斷在騷擾他影響他的那個職安的相關的法令 他是可以受罰"},{"start":11674.32,"end":11692.271,"text":"市長這個就是我們講的,其實老師們的聲音也很多,因為他們覺得說目前我們用辦法,然後來去處理這麼嚴重的解聘的問題,就有點像是駕牛車,然後要上高速公路,其實是非常不對等的。"},{"start":11693.191,"end":11721.931,"text":"所以您也提到了如果我們要處理濫訴究責我們馬上又會去被詢問到說那到底這個法律上有沒有這樣的支撐所以我還是要再一次的講我希望雖然這個叫做辦法教師法但是我還是希望我們在檢討的時候要廣邀各部會一起來做討論那我們來看一下問題所在你看看"},{"start":11722.791,"end":11739.92,"text":"如果不涉及教師法中的解聘事項我們現在已經分流說要回到考核辦法但是到底解聘辦法它到底涉及到底是什麼我們可以看到其實在教師解聘辦法的第二條"},{"start":11741.101,"end":11760.548,"text":"我們可以看到第一項還有一二三款那個都是很明確違法的是法院認證的是直接解聘的這個我們就不討論但是呢在第四款的部分它有說涉及到本法第十四條等等的十五十六就是要依照校事會議嘛沒有錯嘛"},{"start":11761.988,"end":11780.718,"text":"但是我們再回頭看喔你看教師法14、15、16光是14條喔它是因於解聘且終身不得聘任為教師喔它有一個叫做我就舉一個例就好體罰或霸凌學生造成其身心嚴重傷害可是你看第15條"},{"start":11783.41,"end":11797.13,"text":"體罰或霸凌學生造成其身心侵害有解聘制必要但是當在第15條是一決一年至四年不得聘任為教師你有沒有覺得很混亂"},{"start":11799.264,"end":11828.316,"text":"有沒有 次長你有沒有覺得很混亂同樣的一個行為不同的處罰對 是不是很混亂這個就是我們講的嘛就是其實它很多的東西都定義不清甚至最難判斷的教學不力或不能升任工作這個到底要怎麼定義其實以前在108年以前就是因為這樣子所以我們很難處理可是我覺得走到現在"},{"start":11829.176,"end":11848.666,"text":"也沒有覺得更好這個就是為什麼現場有這麼多老師覺得很嚴重的這個問題所以我在這裡看到109年我們針對這種教學行為失當或者是親師溝通不良班級經營欠佳用了一個"},{"start":11849.506,"end":11874.441,"text":"第16條第一項第一款的解釋令結果呢我們還是沒有解決問題我這邊有準備幾個問題我本來想說問一問次長我隨便舉個簡單的幾個例子為了獎勵班上學生但是呢有AB兩位學生因病未到那學生呢有兩位CDE三位呢表現不佳那沒有吃到冰棒然後被投訴"},{"start":11875.742,"end":11902.21,"text":"或者是說呢上課的時候自然老師被投訴說沒有教學生唱國歌又或者是說老師是單身還沒有生小孩會帶學生嗎之類的請教一下我剛剛講的那個獎勵學生有的學生因病未到有的學生表現不佳沒有吃到冰棒被投訴不公平市長您覺得這個會不會成案"},{"start":11904.992,"end":11919.088,"text":"這個當然不應該成案啦但是我告訴你 就是成案了這之前啦對 就是成案了這是115年1月12號其實我只是要表達啦真的 新政"},{"start":11920.492,"end":11941.934,"text":"我們不是法官但是呢你看可以採自由心證所以到底委員判斷的來還是判斷不來我覺得這個問題很大其實追根究底他最核心的問題就是因為這些所以我特別希望說法規的模糊不清造成老師怨聲載道"},{"start":11942.995,"end":11963.479,"text":"那希望包括現在我們講的離線權、管教權我都希望說教育部要幫忙清楚的界定否則我覺得我們再怎麼修問題還是很多跟委員報告像離線權我們就明定就是上班時間內如果上班時間外"},{"start":11967.04,"end":11985.98,"text":"他如果是校安的緊急事件我們處理我們沒有回覆我們才去追究如果不是的話那其實是不究責的那輔導管教權也是因為經過前兩次的公聽座談會我們也在講說合理的輔導管教權剛才委員舉的例子那就是一個合理的輔導管教權那不法"},{"start":11986.621,"end":12000.85,"text":"那不罰的話如果學校又罰那這個我們一直在宣導113年我們有做一個修正有一些像違法阻卻我們剛才提到說委員局的很多例子譬如說宜蘭縣發生的那個老師被學生"},{"start":12001.71,"end":12031.095,"text":"那个戳肛门那个事件那个我们认为那个是违法不能这样子做那老师可能动作大了一点那顶多是跟他口头跟他讲一下这不应该处罚所以我们也在讲说这个新的辅导管教办法怎么样子去让地方政府能够落实就是说在教学现场里面让老师真的不会因为这样而现在我们听到的都是说老师变得很防御性教学或防御性的管理其实我们听了都很难过就希望说这个"},{"start":12031.415,"end":12048.973,"text":"我们会再想办法把这个再更明确化因为七月嘛大家都是希望要重新检讨嘛所以现在不管是公听会学者专家或今天各个立委们的一个建议其实都是希望你们全部都要把它列入检讨"},{"start":12049.574,"end":12071.303,"text":"好不好所以我這邊的訴求就是我特別表達就是要明確定義違反教師法的行為樣態那至於我們的教師輔導與管教學生辦法這一些所謂的注意事項也要去界定好我們的管教權那我也希望能夠去建立學生行為指導與教師合法管教的實務手冊去比照偏遠地區學校校長教師久任獎金發給"},{"start":12078.746,"end":12081.648,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":12110.167,"end":12136.945,"text":"或者是减少这种所谓的自由心证那第三方机制的一个眼里我都希望能够去把它列入所以我们也要去比照近五年正式教师的离职情况也要去会诊然后去了解一下那我希望说刚才我讲的其实我们可以寻求双赢因为我们的目标都是为了我们的孩子好"},{"start":12137.665,"end":12165.669,"text":"所以在這個部分很希望我們七月真的要做出一個精進的對策那策進作為要出來那也許還是會有批評的聲浪但是我們都要虛心的檢討改進因為我們真的就是為了我們的教育也希望能夠走過這一波的教育校園的低迷的這樣一個氛圍那在這邊特別希望教育部要努力"},{"start":12166.689,"end":12168.17,"text":"接下來有請張雅玲委員進行詢答"},{"start":12195.405,"end":12200.891,"text":"主席有請次長好有請次長委員好"},{"start":12201.567,"end":12226.608,"text":"好 謝謝次長我想大家今天其實都非常關注有關於校式會議啦那我想這件事情其實我們從去年討論到現在那我自己其實大概也整理了一下校式會議被詬病的就是像小安大辦啦 未達停聘解聘啊然後輔導先行啊然後那個主張應該要徵定青獅生衝突協調前置程序那其實這六項大概是我們目前的新版的"},{"start":12227.268,"end":12252.654,"text":"的施行辦法其實都有一些相對應的措施那我也跟教育部有所知其實這個數量也是有減少的那但是我想這個民間還是有很多疑慮有很多的質疑所以這個部分呢是不是可以不知道教育部有沒有預估什麼時候我們再重新評估一次現行的校式會議的一個辦法然後再做修正我們就是7月底"},{"start":12253.194,"end":12281.246,"text":"好 那就在七月的時候呢我也是希望說是不是可以把這個其實有很多的團體也有主張是不是考慮第三方機制這在之前其實我也都說過了很多次最主要是說像我自己去了澳洲我也有詢問他們盧理我跟范委員去澳洲的時候也有去詢問說他們如何處理這樣子的問題那其實他們教育部也有回應到就是說現在即便是在澳洲親師之間的一些相關的衝突老師的壓力也其實都是在增加的"},{"start":12282.762,"end":12300.09,"text":"所以我在想就是說其實其他的國家都有面臨到相對的狀況我這邊就有提供了一些其他國家的制度來提供我們教育部來參考就是說都不應該是由學校來自行的調查因為這真的會增加大家的不信任感而且在現場的衝突"},{"start":12301.571,"end":12315.674,"text":"也都会是比较严重的那像是我们的校长协会也有提供到这个校园律师所以我希望说这一部分的改革的核心制度呢是不是可以让这个制度更公平是不是可以请教育部来参考我的这样子的一个想法"},{"start":12316.215,"end":12334.467,"text":"是 我們會來列入原意喔也許是第三方機制大概很多委員都提到我們會認真來評估好 那另外一個部分就是說針對於證券最近有提供到針對於依托名職入校的一個反讀政策就是會增設一個叫做第五級保全"},{"start":12334.707,"end":12362.362,"text":"但是民間也有一些想法就是第五級保全我們的認定它到底是一個保全還是一個查緝人員那它到底是做校園門禁安全巡查還是協助查緝毒品那如果只是校園保全那就不能夠有警察權不能夠盤查學生也不能夠搜索書包不能要求學生尿檢也不能調閱或收集學生個資那這個"},{"start":12363.883,"end":12380.604,"text":"到底我們的定位是什麼呢可不可以請教一步簡單說明我想第五級保全是因為行政院召開跨部會這個反讀會議的時候企圖會議的時候去提到校安的問題就是說如果我們的這個學校部分如果有需要的話可以"},{"start":12382.845,"end":12405.131,"text":"來這個考慮那當然我們目前我們目前學校的校安其實已經有相當的機制啦譬如包括說我們的那個學安人員、校安人員等等我們也不斷在補助相關的這個人員的人力那當然很多委員很關心我們跟警察本來就有一個機制就是說如果學校發生了重大的刑案或者說"},{"start":12405.891,"end":12421.521,"text":"有基於偵辦的需要的話會依照內政部的程序邀請警察進入學校辦案而且學校的主任級以上也要陪同才能夠進入學校而且要以不妨礙學生的最小的妨礙影響原則"},{"start":12423.322,"end":12442.361,"text":"大概會有一套機制所以第五級保全應該是行政院看到整個像依托彌子這種危害社會然後引起心理很大的壓力他認為說如果學校有必要的話可以考量所以我們在目前為止我們現行的校安體系的人力我們不足我們會補啦我懂"},{"start":12444.463,"end":12471.916,"text":"那我想就是說因為大家其實非常關注校園的這個一駝名指的問題那我也非常肯定我們要拿出有魄力的做法來去面對但是因為我們現在就像剛剛次長你有提到我們本來就有學務創新人力我們有校安人力那目前的這些配額跟缺額其實我認為這才是我們應該要來積極關注解決的重點以及它的流動率那這部分其實呢還有待遇是否足以留才我認為這些都應該要來"},{"start":12474.158,"end":12500.018,"text":"檢討那這部分的話應該有相對應的檢討是不是有檢討的報告可以提供到我們辦公室呢好我們在我們在一個月內好不好一個月內好謝謝那還有就是說我也要一個提醒就是毒品查緝當然非常重要但是呢雖然有跟警察去配合但我想這部分還是要照我們既有的流程來走避免就是說因為孩子直接就被帶走因為可能警察懷疑有情資覺得他說他有問題"},{"start":12500.979,"end":12525.555,"text":"他就被搜查就最後證明沒有問題會對他的同儕關係心理狀態學習都會造成非常大的影響那再來就是說呢還有HIV的這個校車司機的新聞事件我想這也是引起了很多社會的關注那這個東西其實我想上個禮拜其實其他的委員也有討論過那我現在只想要出現幾個重要的問題我們現行制度其實是有一個查核規定但是我們有一個"},{"start":12527.066,"end":12547.786,"text":"漏洞在于外包人员有没有落实以及落实定期查核的机制那第二个就是说我们现在的不适任教育人员资料库要怎么样能够查得到查得准查得及时依据我们现在不适任教育人员的通报资讯收集及查询处理地用办法其实是有要求学校禁用"},{"start":12548.727,"end":12575.936,"text":"運用人力的時候要查詢性別資料庫性別事件資料庫還有不是人員資料庫短期補習班 照保服務這些其實通通都可以透過像法務部警政署 社政來查詢記錄但是呢 這個問題就在於這個嫌犯其實已經有嫌苛可是我們卻查不到還是沒有查那教育部目前的掌握到底是什麼來 待會請學員組 來 署長在學校裡面的這個我請那個"},{"start":12577.689,"end":12600.194,"text":"業務單位來回答我先回一下這個案子在疫調中所以疫調的過程他被衛福部視為某種情形他就不肯那目前還沒辦法給我們名單但是那天有跟昭緯報告我們七天內那個名單沒有給我們我們還是可以用一種譬如學校自行禁用為學校人員"},{"start":12600.774,"end":12622.956,"text":"或委外我們各種的模擬把它都列出來之後我們照委員的要求從它的禁用、運用就是剛進來到定期查詢或我們外加不定期查詢以及查詢平台有沒有借接好這三個步驟全面解釋我們說七天內會回覆委員會那也許公聽公到我辦公室好不好"},{"start":12623.857,"end":12643.342,"text":"因為這個其實就是看我們到底有沒有界階然後我們到底有沒有定期所以接下來我就要要求教育部可以立刻來清查全國的各級學校補習班 課照中心的學生交通車的駕駛人名冊是否都已經全部了完成不適用資料庫性侵害防罪紀錄以及相關資料的查核"},{"start":12644.352,"end":12671.437,"text":"有有 這個已經在處理 要不要講一下沒關係 我一次講完 你一次回答好不好那第二個就是說呢我們要要求地方政府盤點現在的外包校車的契約民定業者更換駕駛者必須事先報備要重新查核不能夠自己私底下講好代班就結束了那第三個就是說針對於本案的受害者要有長期的支持雖然說疾管署已經有說會提供衛教諮詢篩檢跟就醫治療"},{"start":12674.278,"end":12682.495,"text":"但是我想這個學籍就學心理輔導在學校端教育部還是要來協助好不好那這三個是不是可以請輔教署嗎"},{"start":12684.11,"end":12684.651,"text":"那對於學生的支持的部分呢"},{"start":12705.31,"end":12731.699,"text":"學生的這個支持在我們原有的輔導系統只要在我們能處理的這個幫忙名單我們也知道的話我們會用原來的輔導專業去保護而且照顧這個孩子在心理上的這個需求好 所以等到名單應該是之後才會拿到嘛 對不對好 了解好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢請次長回座下一位我們有請洪孟楷委員進行詢答"},{"start":12741.032,"end":12742.935,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請張亮次長好 有請次長好 次長"},{"start":12750.094,"end":12775.392,"text":"校園教師會議相對來講重要那另外我也想要關注一個議題就是霸凌案件也很重要那這是我們黨團跟我們教育部相關所知的一個資料那我把它彙整為一個圖來看一下我想第一就是通報的案件到2024年那當然2025年教育部也有提供不過我沒有把它給放進去2025年的通報案件是4140件"},{"start":12777.613,"end":12800.325,"text":"確認有360件那調和有726件我想還是再一次跟次長請教一下次長你認為看到這樣的一個趨勢圖喔是過去這2016年到2024年霸凌的事件飆升還是說其實原本可能就很多但只是過去沒有比較好的一個通報或管理機制導致於是說以前可能有很多黑數"},{"start":12800.985,"end":12820.171,"text":"委員分析都有可能啦就是說當然這幾年我們在校園防治霸凌部分不斷在宣導然後也建立了各種機制管道對管道所以當然有的過去就可能就算了他也不通報那現在我們比較會積極鼓勵他去通報那通報之後經過調查成案的"},{"start":12820.971,"end":12839.686,"text":"是那個比例喔我不是說還是蠻高的但是就是說它比例是通報的數多但它成案的比例是比較少的可是你看一下成案的數從2016年的167對 我說還是兩倍啊一直到現在它持續增加對就說那就變成是說校園霸凌事件其實過去這十年裡面並沒有"},{"start":12840.567,"end":12857.684,"text":"下降的趨勢以前可能在那個年代大家沒被檢舉嘛沒有那麼積極去面對所以它可能是很多黑數嘛所以很多人就講是說為什麼現在鐵拳教育那麼的紅大家有共鳴因為看到好像每個人從小到大都有聽過霸凌的事件或者是說都可能有被霸凌的經驗那"},{"start":12859.145,"end":12884.102,"text":"我們想請教韓國這當然是他上次是可以公錯之前本席也都提出來韓國在2025年他們有幾個頂尖大學先率先宣布是說他們要把它變成是校園霸凌曾經有校園霸凌的部分他拒收這個學生那2026年由韓國的教育部直接明訂法令就是有納入校園霸凌扣分制度"},{"start":12885.063,"end":12903.843,"text":"就是變成是說全國一體適用那甚至韓國教育部直接要求他們的譬如說師範大學、師範院校霸凌玲瓏人過去有這樣子的霸凌紀錄的他就不能接收當成是師範院校的學生也就是他不要變成是有霸凌紀錄的人未來當老師的意思"},{"start":12904.904,"end":12923.96,"text":"那我們是不是我現在在講就是說因為畢竟韓國跟我們國情民情部分有相似當然韓國的職場霸凌以及性別霸凌我們普遍來講是比我們嚴重可是如果說他們現在有建立這樣的一個制度了我們是不是能夠了解一下說這樣制度到底有沒有幫助"},{"start":12925.041,"end":12946.814,"text":"作為我們未來參考,因為本席一直以來很重要,你看如果2016年曾經霸凌別人的人,那他現在可能到現在2026年他已經大學畢業了,已經投入職場了那我們能夠允許曾經有霸凌記錄的人,然後他還可以搖身一變轉學了,然後就洗白,然後變成又還可以錄取頂尖大學"},{"start":12947.975,"end":12973.853,"text":"我想剛才委員提到韓國的目前的一個實施的狀況我們會持續收集國際間這個意見然後我們會請中央學院來評估怎麼樣來建立這個防制霸凌那個學校的招生入學會不會要不要去剝奪他的那個入學權益這個我們會持續收集國際各國之間因為市長很現實的就是教育現場的狀況我們都說霸凌零容忍"},{"start":12974.093,"end":12996.511,"text":"但是如果說他在A學校學生霸凌完之後被寄兩大過他可能怕三大過畢業退學他馬上轉到B學校去他那個就重新計算了那那個紀錄可能就沒有跟著他走那在考大學的時候他現在申請入學推薦面試這個紀錄就不再顯示上面那變成是說他就是變一個洗白機制"},{"start":12997.512,"end":13006.823,"text":"那你認不認同我覺得這樣有兩個部分你認不認同如果說我們有一個類校園霸凌假設我現在講的是說已經成案確定的那這是不是應該要有一些記錄"},{"start":13008.24,"end":13029.927,"text":"因為18歲以前大概高中以下的孩子他的記錄有他的隱私的問題隱私權問題所以在實施上我們可能要比較小心謹慎所以我剛才有跟我們有回答是說所以是現在沒有做的原因其實你在講是現在沒有做的原因但是就造成我剛剛提到一個弊端的漏洞就是他在A學校霸凌了然後被記一大過兩大過"},{"start":13031.147,"end":13038.221,"text":"他只要兩大過兩小過之前沒有滿三大過退學即便是現在滿三大過可能不一定退學那他轉到B學校"},{"start":13039.494,"end":13064.905,"text":"重新來然後就變成是說他在申請入學的時候是沒有這樣的一個記錄的所以我才會提出來說韓國他們已經2026年正式入法有一個校園霸凌扣分制度那我們也許參考他的一個制度去標籤化但是怎麼樣也應該要讓該付出的這種有過去有霸凌行為也不應該就讓他轉學之後洗白嘛"},{"start":13066.294,"end":13082.337,"text":"所以我覺得這就是一個折衷但是我們現在要看孰輕孰重但最重點不是說要讓他變成是完全記錄沒有辦法洗白可是我們也應該要建立一個制度是讓學生知道你要為自己的行為負責還有更重要不能霸凌別人"},{"start":13082.697,"end":13111.289,"text":"我想委員的意見我們會尊重我們也會持續收集因為之前那個學黨裡面在提到那個也有提到說那個學生就是高中階段他的獎懲紀錄要不要納入那個學習歷程要不要有加課分制度當時有很多專家覺得意見不一樣所以業務大會跟我講說我們再來我們持續來收集好 那市長我就請教你可以認同是說如果他現在寄兩大過然後轉學到B學校之後他那兩大過就"},{"start":13111.969,"end":13126.725,"text":"高中的話好像不會這樣可以接受嗎高中不是義務教育高中是免費教育高中的部分有這樣子嗎因為現在現場的連市長可能都不一定那麼清楚就代表本席接收到的部分以及我們現在教育部到底針對這一個"},{"start":13128.507,"end":13151.065,"text":"被記大過一定是也經過審視合格之後才會被記錄除非是他有一些銷過的記錄啦有一些很銷過的記錄有銷過記錄好那本席現在在講如果說有銷過記錄你是變成是帳面上就沒有但是他連那個歷程我們連臉書都有文章都有編輯記錄了照理講你也應該要有相關的記錄我不是說不讓學生有補救"},{"start":13152.005,"end":13176.482,"text":"如果假設他真的因為一時犯錯而造成他被記大過他有後續功過相抵但他不是就完全不見嘛他照理講應該是說他有記一大過但他有兩小功等等的但是他的記錄是延續那在審查的時候可以去做一個公平的檢視我一個意見我們來納入不應該是說A學校被記了大過然後我轉學到B學校"},{"start":13177.242,"end":13205.732,"text":"全部就不見那如果說他在B學校申請的時候然後老師看可能就變成是說學生的成績其實這就是為什麼韓國他們爆發很嚴重的一個霸凌事件結束之後他轉到B學生轉到B學校還申請到頂尖大學讓全國民眾滑爛嘛我覺得這就是他山之子可以工作的一個原因本期今天特別提出來就是希望教育部應該要檢視這過去可能會有漏洞"},{"start":13206.333,"end":13209.682,"text":"我們不希望因為這樣的漏洞而造成說霸凌者還可以"},{"start":13210.836,"end":13236.078,"text":"喔 他可以 這個記錄可以消除那這樣子其實莫名其妙也是一個不公平嘛 是吧好 我們來演繹 好好 次長對不起 再一分鐘就好了因為教室會議的部分 我想確認一下我有看到是說我們現在修正受理案件機制是校長聘請外部調查人才庫的專業人員是那這個專業人員的相關費用是學校這邊來學校支付 學校支付學校吸收 對好"},{"start":13236.678,"end":13261.745,"text":"那他有規定他的身份啦就是說我們要補出來譬如說他要有一個教師身份一個家長代表身份然後一個第三個工程師我現在確認是說人才庫的專業人員但本席我想可能很多委員都有接受到這樣的反應因為有好幾個家長會已經有跟本席反應我就提出來我覺得這可能也是我們後續修法的一個參考就是說他講說"},{"start":13262.985,"end":13289.937,"text":"變成是外部的調查委員是要由學校去籌錢去資益我們有補助有補助但是還是學校要部分吸收那就變成是什麼狀況就變成是說學校會拜託說不要有太多的通報案件因為它就變成是說它的這個費用就增加然後甚至校長就去拜託家長會說請家長會幫忙募款我覺得某種程度上這樣就變成是我們的美意"},{"start":13291.298,"end":13305.096,"text":"這當然說美意就是說有外部調查人員這當然就是說有一個外部機制來去做檢核但是變成轉嫁的成本又到這個家長會學校身上然後造成說他們就不希望有太多的案件"},{"start":13306.505,"end":13331.174,"text":"市長有沒有這樣的狀況還是說我們還是修法做個檢討好不好我們會檢討啦好不好是不是在這個之前還會有一個比較好的一個輔導機制或者調和機制能夠如果這是很小的事情的話根本也連這個都不需要去進入這樣的一個調查是甚至有家長委員他們就講是說那能不能外部調查人員的這個資格還是考什麼證照他們能不能協助來考證照"},{"start":13333.05,"end":13359.921,"text":"來去做這樣子的這當然就是因為本席有接到這樣的一個成績而且不只一間學校好幾間學校都有反應就是說這樣的錢變成是說他們要去籌錯那感覺好像就是成本又轉嫁到學校身上OK 我們在7月上旬會針對這個事情跟地方縣市政府什麼來討論好 那也一併把本席這一個疑問跟課題也納入討論並且尋求解決之道好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":13361.161,"end":13377.719,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢 請次長回座下一位 我們有請王安祥委員進行詢答主席好 有請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":13382.057,"end":13406.211,"text":"市長早今天是校事會議雖然我不在高中以下的學校我在大學不過我想在教學現場發生的狀況其實大家都有一個共同的趨勢我先從果看起來所以現在市長應該知道很多人當初我們年輕的時候其實投入老師這個行業職業別基本上是因為有一些理想性不是賺錢"},{"start":13408.112,"end":13431.959,"text":"那現在這個很多的地方那個中小學大概在這個招聘的時候其實都有非常多的缺額我想次長這個應該知道那有一個現象我想這個要提出來跟次長就教就是那個代理老師的部分我們過去有一個那個criteria大概是8%左右啦8%左右就是代理老師的那個比例啦對啊對啊不過其實很多我想"},{"start":13432.719,"end":13450.305,"text":"都超過8%了對不對對 因為少子化的關係減班嚴重所以很多學校會留空比較多的比例尤其是比較交通位置比較沒有那麼好的學校對 它的流動率會更高那這我覺得某些程度也是因為大家不願意投入到教師這個職業來嗎"},{"start":13452.526,"end":13478.759,"text":"其實代理教師他現在的那個聘請他的那個薪資大概其實跟正式老師都一樣那沒有聘沒有聘主的多數的原因應該是因為少子化的衝擊非常嚴重所以我再回到今天的主題來就是校師會議我想這個最近討論非常多昨天這個教師團體他們昨天也開了記者會我想至少能看到基本上我想教育部這邊一直說今年已經做了一些修正"},{"start":13479.739,"end":13501.146,"text":"那看起來今天那個報告裡面也有就是那個投訴案件從448變成200多件因為我們的學者就喜歡問問題就是市長覺得這個減少最重要的原因是什麼是因為匿名減少了我們把匿名踢掉了還是說大家關注這個議題了還是說我們這個分流產生很好的作用這樣"},{"start":13501.846,"end":13524.384,"text":"我想有幾個方面一個就是說剛才葉委員也有委員提到說分委的關係比如說因為老師開始像葉委員認為說是老師開始防疫性教學所以大家就比較不會去踩到那個線第二個當然是匿名匿名投訴是很重要的一部分匿名投訴我們不受理了所以有一些可能他是要惡譽或者是要惡整"},{"start":13524.904,"end":13549.403,"text":"老師的這種有私人恩怨他可能就在這個氛圍下他也就不去檢舉這也是一個可能第三種可能就是說我們確實在投訴上面我們做了一個分流分流那個其實也產生了一些效果我不敢說全部有一些效果所以市長我的意思就是說剛剛好多個原因嘛我想經費部裡面發揮這個做學問的精神嘛我們看到到底是發生什麼事情到底什麼樣的原因造成什麼樣的結果"},{"start":13550.123,"end":13569.467,"text":"因為我們現在要改善嘛因為大家都知道這個狀況蠻嚴重的那另外因為這次要分流啦那剛剛很多委員也提到就是校長要召開一個這個所謂認定的會議啊一個小組啦因為我覺得過去我們在認定上如果第一階段是受理跟不受理就是是不是要駁掉就是不受理我覺得這個是簡單的可是這個要分流的話這個次長覺得這個事情"},{"start":13572.889,"end":13588.18,"text":"分流主要是回應說有些案例舉出來很小的案例結果有進去校事會議結果有外聘的人來然後小案大辦然後折磨老師的那種士氣折磨老師的那種教學的熱忱所以我們覺得說確實從數據從過去一年多實施的那個數據來看最後"},{"start":13592.924,"end":13621.229,"text":"停止或者解聘的案件只有26件是可是進入了894件事實上我們都知道這個狀況所以我們現在要尋求一個好的方法好的機制希望就是說小案它可以調和維繫學生的權益也保障這個老師的工作權這兩個我們希望都能夠保障到那基本上就是說我希望我們去還是要去看一下到底什麼樣的機制對於因為現在一直在講分流我覺得實務上這個我們現在有很多比如說霸凌剛剛也對委員講"},{"start":13621.909,"end":13642.47,"text":"那其實有些那個狀況在沒有調查之前其實很多狀況是非常不明確的在前端要做好分流我覺得很多時候是這麼容易的所以希望教育部有這個新的法我們現在馬上還要檢討我們是盡量把它明確化現在講辦法把它明確化我們還有到底是要正面還是負面的來表列"},{"start":13643.47,"end":13661.776,"text":"或是说过去刚刚次长也讲到很多其他的案例我们有名利主宣违法的部分现在都有认定上的一个差异所以这个提供给部里面做一个参考谢谢次长好谢谢谢谢委员谢谢王安祥委员请次长回座下一位有请罗廷伟赵伟"},{"start":13671.052,"end":13697.959,"text":"好謝謝主席請邀請次長謝謝好有請次長大會好好次長在首先談論今天的專題的時候呢我想幾個問題跟你就教一下好你有沒有發現台灣的小朋友啊都戴眼鏡居多對有沒有小朋友國教組組長我們上次去日本的時候你有沒有印象好像日本小朋友戴眼鏡的比較少"},{"start":13699.982,"end":13718.334,"text":"對 我們那天去看了一個小學五年級的小學生小朋友戴眼鏡看起來比較少一點對 國外真的反而比較少那眼睛是靈魂之窗根據國建署最新的統計台灣國小一年級的學童近視率高達兩成"},{"start":13720.908,"end":13742.829,"text":"現在到了小六更是逼近七成這不只是一個數字的問題這是嚴重的我們公共衛生國安危機耶眼科醫學會對學童視力不良率的關心希望可以整合整個視力的數據建立資料庫現階段我們看到新聞這邊都有寫已經上報了"},{"start":13743.717,"end":13768.577,"text":"我想国建署这边也不断的在讲我们现在对于现在的孩童势力的关心整合大数据希望能够提前掌握整个孩子的势力变化的一个趋势在现阶段孩子变成高度近视或者是眼睛病变之前制定更精准的一个近视防治的一个政策"},{"start":13769.358,"end":13792.49,"text":"建立完整的一個追蹤機制可是現在的問題喔國健署在講整個問題卡在教育部沒有辦法上傳資料提供數據因為資料看不到沒有辦法去追蹤高風險的近視兒童所以近視防治的這一塊就缺了一腳所以次長"},{"start":13793.652,"end":13816.59,"text":"眼科醫學會跟衛福部現在倡議的是希望建立一套校園篩檢出來一個完整的勢力追蹤機制可是次長教育部願不願意再承諾一個月跨部會來召開這樣子的一個會議來想辦法提供這個資料讓這個追蹤機制能夠完整"},{"start":13817.47,"end":13832.935,"text":"我們會跟各縣市談啦可能機關署那邊或者各縣市那邊或者委員手上資料的眼科協會我們來跟他們了解一下整個狀況他們需要的現在報導指出國建署副署長"},{"start":13834.415,"end":13862.586,"text":"為副署長就講說教育部沒有提供這一個資料可能有一些個資的問題對所以可是目前來說我們大家一直說個資個資如果你去問家長家長一定百分百同意啊因為在部會之間能夠相互去利用這樣子的一個資訊來整合追蹤機制讓我們的勢力有辦法在病變之前或者是高度近視之前來產生因應的政策嘛所以我希望的是說"},{"start":13863.266,"end":13884.205,"text":"我們的教育部不要行政怠惰甚至是用這樣子的一個法規沒有是法規沒有給你授權嗎那是不是你應該提出一些意見讓委員們來幫忙呢所以我希望說提出問題了我們找出共同的解決辦法希望你能夠承諾一個月內是不是能夠提出解決辦法"},{"start":13885.446,"end":13899.87,"text":"委員講了這個時間點我們來依據這個時間來處理可以嗎一個月有一個意見給委員也分享一下第一點剛好昨天我們去查也是跟國建署一起辦111學年到113學年我們去查學生"},{"start":13903.931,"end":13930.924,"text":"近視的情況的現況那我們發現經過跟國健署的努力在國中跟國小分別減低的情形國小減低了大概0.49國中大概減低了1.22大概跟國健署一直在努力現在繼續努力就剛剛講的一些特殊情形能不能夠就我們在各自相關甚至疾管署的一些疫調或是有關的這種"},{"start":13932.766,"end":13959.307,"text":"專業上給我們一點支持因為剛剛講的不是大數據不是去識別化剛剛委員我比較注意聽您講的是特別的我講的是對您講的是特別的所以這個容我們跟各地方政府的專業夥伴還有疾管署以及衛福部我們來查但我要特別說明謝謝委員關心我們跟國健署就一直合作以前20年來一直就學生視力體味蛀牙等等或是煙冰我知道你們一定很關注啦"},{"start":13960.148,"end":13986.385,"text":"但是現在既然已經上報了他也有提到希望你們能夠提供數據我們看怎麼樣去整合嘛一個月內之內解決辦法出來就那個特殊個案上怎麼樣來突破我們來處理就大數據的去識別化應該還好處理就特殊個案特殊的我要的是特殊的所以這個要怎麼處理跟大數據不太一樣因為那去識別化所以我一講就清楚的話是不是容我們把那個比較困難的你們再討論看看啦"},{"start":13987.205,"end":14011.701,"text":"但後續我也會再召集教育部衛福部還有眼科醫學會我們大家共同來討論這一題啦我想大家都希望能夠關注這個校園近視的一個問題那第二個我要再跟你們請教的時候今天校事會議這件事情我也要講一下的確我也接到大概有兩三個家長會跟我說要聘請委員的部分費用"},{"start":14012.952,"end":14023.885,"text":"學校都說沒有都說要希望家長會能夠幫忙出一些費用幫忙募款這是事實喔這是事實你們一定要注意喔所以7月你的新辦法出來的時候就經費來這個區塊是不是也應該要檢討"},{"start":14028.407,"end":14048.468,"text":"好我們會一併來檢討好第二個我要再跟你們探討的是我們現在上週一我們召開了校師會議的公聽會我想在座兩位也都在現場聽了很久針對昨天九大教師公會全教總等教團呼籲廢除校師會議次長有要先回應嗎"},{"start":14049.659,"end":14076.987,"text":"我想這個消失會議有佔他們的提出廢除但也有家長團體反對還有一些公協會反對所以我想這個不是我在這邊說我支持不支持的問題這個消失會議是一個制度制度當然沒有辦法做到百分之百那我們一直在優化那是當年教師法修法的授權2019年修法的授權我大概知道了沒關係那教育部目前強調新制實施後"},{"start":14077.907,"end":14094.529,"text":"投訴的案件跟解聘考核兩個辦法在校正前都有同期的減少這是你們一直以來在說的那我想這樣子的一個不受理案件比率增加以後但是次長案件數下降是否就代表教師的恐懼下降"},{"start":14095.51,"end":14123.438,"text":"這個我們要來探討一下再來案件數下降是否就代表整個校園的信任恢復這個我們也應該要了解一下所以我認為案件數下降是否就代表制度變得更公平有待查證許多教師在第一線的感受他還是覺得恰恰相反一份調查報告可能就影響整個教師考核懲處 停聘 解聘甚至不續聘事實上這就足以決定一個教師"},{"start":14124.378,"end":14146.133,"text":"他的職涯生死所以今天我想要就幾個問題來跟你探討市長校事會議呢在走這個程序啊保障不足您有發現嗎您委員講的保障不足是什麼我們想喔真正決定案件走向的往往不是法院而是前端的調查"},{"start":14147.133,"end":14176.284,"text":"在第一次訪談的時候怎麼回答哪些證據被提出哪些事實被記錄往往就決定了調查後續的方向所以請問次長當校師會議已經足以影響這個職牙教師的職牙的生死權跟他的名譽權的時候為何教師在調查程序中沒有法律輔助的制度"},{"start":14178.752,"end":14196.872,"text":"沒有法律輔助我們其實現在也在研議為何不能夠提供法律諮詢啊或者是程序協助啊專業的陪同律師專業的單位陪同他們一起來做這樣子的一個調查我認為程序保障我們現在有一個輔助人機制嘛就是說已經修了之後他可以有輔助人"},{"start":14197.392,"end":14213.446,"text":"副主任就包括律師也好或者是他的教師同仁是1月12之後的嘛對不對我要講的是之前我們在遇到這樣的情況我要強調是把它放大所以我們希望說程序的保障不是包庇"},{"start":14214.147,"end":14234.074,"text":"不適任的老師而是確保調查的品質跟事實的發現所以在你們後續的修正的時候我認為7月還有一個修正的一個機會輔佐人的機制他在過程當中是不是還有在這幾個月的大數據你們都會有稍微調解像輔佐人機制怎麼樣落實"},{"start":14234.994,"end":14252.176,"text":"然後第二個就是說那老師如果遇到這樣的問題的時候他沒有一些法律諮詢的一個比較專業的一個機構我希望他們在陪同這樣子的過程當中都會想辦法來設計這個制度來跟地方政委討論讓制度更加完善是 我們會來想辦法"},{"start":14253.237,"end":14278.669,"text":"好所以我想我還是那句話上次部長在這邊我問他他沒有得出一個答案現在看起來調和機制是會有的對不對就是其實我們在1月12號上路之後要進入校師會議之前我們就設計那個希望它就是一個調和機制就從人才庫裡面找到教師有教師背景的代表家長背景的代表第三方公正人士然後由校長來招集因為以後會更明確吧"},{"start":14279.229,"end":14295.216,"text":"那我們現在但今天有委員提到說除了校內的調和機制那校外的第三方公正機制上次我有建議嘛像我們法治單位他們都有所謂的調解嘛但是他們希望是有教保人員的資格啊或者是教師資格來擔任調和嘛這個建議我們也可以來考慮大家研議啦"},{"start":14300.639,"end":14312.719,"text":"所以我在想說如果我們在審理這一次的教師解聘考核辦法隨時有機會我們先退回然後再由你們再重新擬定新的方案再送進來是吧"},{"start":14313.74,"end":14336.799,"text":"校屬會已經實行 怎麼退回我們現在目前大院有交辦委員會要審查我要依法制 你們依法制決定啦我們準備尊重大院的決定對 基本上已經到委員會的這個責任了嘛不過我擔任召委 我如果排的話我們是希望說有這個機會那退回 到時候你們再有新的辦法的時候 契約再送進來這也是不無可能啦"},{"start":14337.239,"end":14350.827,"text":"所以我想這個部分也是希望說大家要重視能夠將校士會議相關的一些辦法能夠研擬的更加完善所以我要再講的是電子菸現在非常難抓報紙上都在講發不到事件"},{"start":14351.977,"end":14368.086,"text":"那校園呢校園這邊也是上報啊電子菸入侵國中小異常膩難辨別他的氣味所以我們現在在所謂的第五級保全啊我們看到是為了校園反毒啊"},{"start":14368.826,"end":14391.651,"text":"那我想問現在國教署來統計涉嫌攜帶使用電子煙校園通報的案件3年飆升7倍2025年累積了1692件估計逾4萬多名的國中生國高中生吸食電子煙市長這個數據是有查到但是有沒有查到黑數數據的部分我們是請業務單位來說明一下"},{"start":14397.242,"end":14415.196,"text":"委員剛剛講的有沒有黑數這個其實在原來沒有這個法規的時候114年之前沒有那後來有之後114年1月114年11月分別調查之後就變成比較高而且也比較多出來被通報了"},{"start":14415.876,"end":14438.522,"text":"或許黑素就被揭發了嘛對 以前是不用通報啦後來114年是要通報的但是我要再講就是說電子菸沒有菸味如果學生要在學校抽菸是比較不容易被發現的所以教師在第一線的辨識度這大大的提升那之前依托明子等菸油分開存放讓老師根本找不到正在吸毒的證據"},{"start":14439.722,"end":14468.228,"text":"導致校方除了沒收他的電子菸的載具之外基本上拿學生沒轍所以我們要怎麼樣讓第一線的老師有這個辨識的機會上次也有在提到說可能還要在驗讀這個部分我想校園反讀的策略都是宣傳抓到就是春暉輔導面對施用型態的改變現行策略是否過於被動我們做法是不是應該調整市長"},{"start":14470.276,"end":14492.658,"text":"我們校園的販毒是非常積極沒有被動包括我們的校安人員我們的所有的人力我想在除了跟校外的巡捕會也好或者是跟警察也好我們有大概也9192處的高風險的場域我們都有定期在巡查而且是跟警政大會合作"},{"start":14493.078,"end":14506.975,"text":"我知道你們都有積極在評論所以你才會看到那個數據可是現在這個反讀我認為還是不堪一擊因為面對新形態不斷的在侵擾讓整個校園安全變得更不安全不是你們沒作為是複雜的整個過程當中讓我們的這個"},{"start":14510.899,"end":14538.719,"text":"反毒策略有待再精進沒有錯我想這個春威福島的部分新少年吸毒再犯是高達35%所以春威福島有待加強我們到地方去其實那個校安人員包括學校的教官他們是我問他們有沒有確實入班他們是班班入班宣導而且5分鐘10分鐘甚至不斷的在講那我也去調了我們3700多所學校每一所學校設範到有關那個尿液檢篩出來有這個"},{"start":14540.72,"end":14569.672,"text":"毒品反應的其實它的分布是比較典狀式的不是像我們在那個韓國的戲劇都看到當然不可能一整個學校所以說不是這樣子的情況啦所以我們當然也跟警政單位合作最重要的是這些孩子他在哪邊拿到這些毒品或者說這個毒菸那我們是透過警政系統在校外裡面在高風險的場域裡面去溯源去抓這個我還是真的要特別拜託因為我要提的是第二個再犯率啦"},{"start":14570.092,"end":14597.82,"text":"災犯率高達35%的時候春暉福島能不能有效的這個我們會來檢討我認為要有檢討啦他的改革時程跟重點相關的反毒策略我覺得這個是調整一下機制可不可以兩個月內給我資料你們要怎麼樣調整我一直在跟你們講說你們的反毒策略有問題我已經講了好幾次了那我想不是你們不好是西域要精進因為新型態真的是如果有更好的意見我們都會採納啦我們都會"},{"start":14598.76,"end":14615.373,"text":"那第五級保全現在行政院提出來的這個行政院啊紀連城政委拋出來的第五級保全有沒有跟教育部討論過他是好意建議在跨部會的那個會議裡面說如果學校裡面校園人力是不是夠不夠我們是說不夠嘛那有沒有跟你討論過嘛"},{"start":14616.547,"end":14633.394,"text":"他當然是在跨部會裡面有在當下跟你討論就只有那次會議教育部目前贊成嗎那我們跟他講我們現有的這個校安人力其實是已經有我是認為第五級保全跟現行校安有什麼不同可不可以說清楚講明白第五級保全我們要講一下"},{"start":14633.956,"end":14655.97,"text":"跟委員報告第五級保全的一個部分其實就是以政委的概念其實是跟校安是一樣的那他是擔心說擔心有些學校的一個人力不足然後可以嚴疫納入第五級保全這樣的一個情況所以我們在講說為什麼校安有新制天花板的限制第五級保全沒有因為他們可以反而他們可以領到五萬"},{"start":14656.75,"end":14673.93,"text":"我想就跟我跟葉元之提的那個版本一樣他的背景特殊嘛那是你們說的嘛OK沒關係我們可以尊重但為什麼我跟葉元之提的版本的時候被說是雙心肥貓結果你們政委提出來的就變得好棒棒"},{"start":14674.631,"end":14689.136,"text":"我覺得這大家都是為了第一線的校安在努力沒有說誰的方法一定是對的但是提出來大家探討來提升校安這個是普遍民眾都能夠接受的所以我想成立第五級保全"},{"start":14690.156,"end":14709.693,"text":"會與警方等單位策略來做一個聯防學校需與警方來簽訂資源的協定喔那警方在有情資的時候呢可以進入校園來查緝或協助我想請問次長現行就有警察入校園的規範啊對那現在行政院又在談警察入校園請問區別在哪裡"},{"start":14710.834,"end":14726.3,"text":"沒有就是說如果你有涉及到刑案的偵辦譬如說你學校他去請求協助有時候學校他沒有這個偵辦人力那警方他也是要依相關的法令來程序所以我們本來就有警察入校園的這個部分的規範那時候不有規範"},{"start":14727.12,"end":14742.054,"text":"對 我不懂這個時候這個行政院這邊又提出要跟警察有警察的一個情資聯繫啊查器協助啊他是說希望我們加強啦加強 那當然我們就是好啊 那加強可以啊你有辦法再生出更加強版的我們都樂觀其成嘛"},{"start":14743.795,"end":14767.201,"text":"希望能夠更加完善啦但是我希望說不要同一件事情明明校園已經有了結果又拿出來再談一次要就具體的要怎麼樣能夠聯防讓整個校園的資訊能夠跟警察連線之後能夠提升校園安全又不會喪失該有的權益學生的權益老師的權益這個部分要再加強好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":14770.009,"end":14770.509,"text":"主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":14797.595,"end":14811.352,"text":"市長我們現在都在談如何改革跟改善教師的處境我想請問其實借鑒國外的做法是非常重要的像日本跟韓國都在2020年後"},{"start":14814.355,"end":14840.285,"text":"上路了很多支持老師的措施那教育部有了解嗎那有研究哪些來參考嗎我們在2019年修教師法的時候也把這個教師智商心理智商輔導系統把它納入法條裡面所以在2021年之後也開始建立各縣市的教師的心理智商輔導系統就是委員所關心的說現在不是只有學生需要"},{"start":14841.085,"end":14859.924,"text":"心理輔導需要那個諮商老師也需要所以我們也在這幾年積極協助各縣市來成立那最後一個縣市成立是苗栗也在去年成立了那當然經費也從我們那時候協助600萬一直增加6000萬那剛才委員提到的也很多委員提到說那在"},{"start":14860.504,"end":14882.489,"text":"日本或者韓國他是有這個法律在學校有學校律師或者是那個學校的公會律師公會裡面有主動去協助韓國的那個老師的一個免費的諮詢所以我剛才有提到說我們現在在考慮在這次的校事會檢討裡面是不是針對老師射送那個部分有一些類似的一個組織來協助我們也在"},{"start":14884.429,"end":14901.999,"text":"朝這個方向原理其實剛剛次長點了一個關鍵的年代年份說2019年之後事實上你發現這七年我坦白講不知道次長你有沒有感覺教師的所謂的教育現場環境你覺得是在改善還是在惡化這七年"},{"start":14902.859,"end":14918.098,"text":"這七年當然因為這個教師解聘不續聘那個辦法上路之後那對於怎麼樣來處理不論讓社會公平讓學校的老師不認教授能夠不只是惡化"},{"start":14919.565,"end":14943.915,"text":"我跟你講是迅速惡化今天也不會有這麼大的一個所謂的波瀾那你們也要強調說要新制年初做很多的改革那我基本上不否定教育部啊你看到問題很好啊要改革很好啊可是我就要講說七年來我們的過去所定的法律造成今天教師的尊嚴跟教育現場環境的極度的惡化"},{"start":14945.066,"end":14962.252,"text":"但這也不是台灣特有的問題日本跟韓國也有可是在2020年之後其實就上路了很多法律就已經看到了這樣的一個所謂的對於老師的教育的尊嚴的剝奪以及教育權的剝削"},{"start":14963.39,"end":14977.025,"text":"他今天直接衝擊已經不只是教師的所謂的權利也衝擊到今天教育現場環境衝擊到學生的受教權那我舉個例子剛才其實你有講到一些機制我們在細部講"},{"start":14978.547,"end":15000.182,"text":"像日本各都道府縣的教育委員會都設置了學校律師來讓學校尤其老師面臨很多問題可以提供法律諮詢那據日本的政府統計2022年最多的諮詢內容就是家長的過度抱怨以及無理要求佔了77%"},{"start":15002.483,"end":15018.794,"text":"然後日本政府在2020年就開始撥預算支持這個學校律師的這個措施我想要請教一下因為剛我也聽到你們有講輔助人我想請教一下像日本的這個做法"},{"start":15020.004,"end":15044.084,"text":"對教育部而言的話有什麼啟發啟示你打算怎麼做我們在公聽會的上禮拜公聽會也有聽到類似的建議所以當時我也允諾說我們會朝這方面來研議就是在教師至上輔導中心或是那個系統各縣市中心之外我們在成立那個有關老師教權方面的法律資源類似中心我拜託次長"},{"start":15045.385,"end":15069.162,"text":"這一點真的必須要做啦因為法律其實是很繁複的一個學問多數老師遇到都會很慌亂對對對一般遇到法律狀況很慌亂嘛現在各種檢舉啊不管是性平啊霸凌啊對老師的各種的檢舉其實當老師面對這麼龐大的一個壓力的時候他其實對於法律他並不一定是他最了解的東西"},{"start":15069.702,"end":15092.975,"text":"所以他需要今天有專業的法律的支持跟輔助所以這一點我也要拜託教育部是就是說一定要提供最好的法律的保護的後盾讓家長不要自己讓我們的老師們不要獨立的面對今天教育現場當中可能來自於所謂的不當的所謂這個爛數的風險這一點要拜託次長要去做這問題我們已經在研議了好"},{"start":15096.437,"end":15120.173,"text":"那另外韓國2023年就發生了很多件教師壓力因為壓力輕生的案件其實在我們台灣也越來越嚴重了這幾年其實我看到案件次數那個數字也不斷的增加他提出了保護老師的教權釋法我想請教一下次長你知道他的保護老師教權釋法是哪些法律嗎"},{"start":15120.993,"end":15138.108,"text":"他大概有提到整理教權各地縣市教權委員會包括工作離線權的保障等等我跟次長說可能請教育部還是要專門來研究一下韓國的法律"},{"start":15138.809,"end":15165.837,"text":"他們一口氣修了教師地位提升與教育活動保護特別法比如保障法然後再來初中教育法幼兒教育法教育基本法在裡面就大幅的來去希望能夠保障所謂的教師的那個教育的尊嚴跟教學權那其中以教師地位提升與教育活動保護特別法為例"},{"start":15167.597,"end":15190.88,"text":"他有特別徵定侵害教育活動的定義如果高中以下學校或其監護人對教師教育實施不公正干涉或限制包括不正當目的的反覆投訴不斷強迫教師進行不屬於他法定職責的工作都算是侵害教育活動"},{"start":15191.821,"end":15215.074,"text":"那另外該法也明訂教育部要訂定實施保護教師教育活動的計畫並滾動檢討我要問一下我們教育部像韓國特別其他這個就真的是特別針對今天南韓也發生今天教師的教育權教學權以及教育尊嚴"},{"start":15215.934,"end":15237.889,"text":"受到非常嚴重侵害他們提出一個對策性的法律教師地位提升跟教育活動保護的特別的法律我想請教次長教育部打算要來去參照推動嗎我想這個可以在教師法我們的那個法律不同教師法裡面其實可以來修正我們其實在公聽會的時候也收集到"},{"start":15238.689,"end":15261.165,"text":"有些聽到很多那個老師建議他說其實我們常常講合理管教權那合理管教權裡面如果他在我們現在的那個授權執法然後再用注意事項有個效訂定的話他的那個保障力不夠所以他們都希望入法所以我在想如果剛才委員提到那個韓國那個情況就是說有侵害到"},{"start":15261.946,"end":15269.709,"text":"那個教權的那個部分其實在教師法裡面是可以用專章用專章的方式來訂定我跟次長說我們會聽不管是專章或專法"},{"start":15274.025,"end":15296.496,"text":"其實我還是希望教育部能夠體察到今天社會大眾為什麼對最近老師遇到的問題輿論沸騰代表問題已經非常嚴重那如果教育部有意往專章來去做的話來去設計的話我希望市長可以告訴我一個時程嗎你什麼時候教育部可以推出教育部版的"},{"start":15297.336,"end":15321.023,"text":"类似南韩今天改善教师地位以及进行特别保护的所谓教师法的专章也有办法去告诉我大概什么时间你可以提出来这样一个法律的设计吗就分两个步骤嘛就是说因为立法是真的旷日费时但是我们愿意马上来研议然后第二个就是说立法虽然旷日费时我们会马上来研议那立法也是个根本长期因为那个要整方"},{"start":15321.783,"end":15342.78,"text":"我們要去問很多團體、縣市政府還有可行的方式所以我們會朝這個方向來研議那還沒有在立法的過程裡我們剛才提到有關那個輔導管教的部分我們會更明確的跟地方政府協商讓第一線的學校市長我這樣打斷一下因為你很多的說法在前面質詢都聽過了"},{"start":15344.321,"end":15357.786,"text":"但是我今天是要想要確認一件事就是我今天還是肯定你喔是專法還是專章我覺得立法體力各有不同啦但是既然有這麼重要的一個法律事實上你要知道"},{"start":15359.144,"end":15379.541,"text":"我剛剛說過不是只有台灣的教育現場面臨這個問題像日本韓國也都有這個問題但是他們有拿出改革的魄力跟作為而且行之有年所以很多問題在日本跟韓國開始得到控制那我們現在今天討論的是校師會議它是其中當中一個機制上可能出現失誤的問題所以我們要檢討校師會議"},{"start":15382.583,"end":15408.279,"text":"但是不管是採取你們的心智跟秀智我覺得要從根本性的所謂的法律的框架跟整個政策目的的設計著手來去做制度性的一個根本性的變革那不然否則你頭痛一頭腳痛一腳我覺得事實上沒有辦法完整的去解決今天教育現場面對的問題那我還是要求教育部啦包括說幾個機制必須放進去就是"},{"start":15409.301,"end":15432.768,"text":"必須讓濫訴跟干擾要受到究責的這個成本機制否則現在最大的問題就是濫訴干擾老師的教學他不用付出成本他變成是今天我愛怎麼做就怎麼做現在對韓國來講他就開始加你成本啊你當然學生要保護但是我不能容許你今天濫訴"},{"start":15434.068,"end":15448.485,"text":"今天如果说今天只是出于家长的各种所谓的恶意的目的的滥诉的话抱歉你是在侵犯神圣的教育权这点当然就必须要有一个相当的一个惩罚或是要加大成本的一个机制"},{"start":15449.326,"end":15477.925,"text":"那第二個就是我剛剛前面講法治化保障教師的權益這個當然要更加的努力目前來講保障是不夠的第三個就是我們剛剛前面討論的就是說不是什麼單純就輔佐人這樣的一個機制而已你應該要強化學校的法律顧問的機制讓學校也就是說事前事中事後都要有一個完整的保護事前的保護就是我們剛剛講修法去來去減少濫訴跟干擾"},{"start":15479.386,"end":15505.249,"text":"那事後就是一旦發生了今天一些爛訴干擾的情況讓老師要面對龐大的一個法律的壓力跟對於法律的所謂專業跟知識的一個需求的時候政府就有責任義務要提供所謂的老師的律師學校的律師來加以輔助他去面對今天很大的一個法律上的一個負擔"},{"start":15506.05,"end":15523.962,"text":"那這三個點我希望教育部能夠放在心上我們一個月內把它研議要朝專章或者朝專法我們一個月內會做出一個評估好 非常謝謝次長拜託這個月研議的一個報告7月請你送到我辦公室來好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":15526.602,"end":15542.708,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員請次長回座下一位有請蔡議員委員蔡議員委員蔡議員委員不在下一位有請盧憲宜委員進行詢問謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":15547.376,"end":15574.406,"text":"委員好我應該是最後一個今天大家都談了很多今天針對偏鄉的問題來問一下次長就是我看到我們的解偏辦法第16條的第二項就是說調查小組應該包括法律專家學者至少一人但偏遠地區不在此限你就看到這樣的話就會是不是這樣偏遠地區如果外偏委員有困難我覺得是不是你就沒有法律的專門人才協助嗎"},{"start":15575.006,"end":15600.598,"text":"這樣的話是政府應該是要做協助派任跨區調度遠距的參議員或者是補足經費如果說偏鄉沒有法律的一個專家來協助的話是不是這個師生的權益行政程序跟調查品質是要誰來負責那我看了研究案例就是說單一案件的調查費大概是三萬五千塊那主管機關為另行補助要求學校從滾存基金支應"},{"start":15601.338,"end":15628.682,"text":"这些本来应该是应用在孩子学习教师的教学设备维护的经费如果偏乡的小学要怎么来自行负担然后所以我希望说教育部能不能在一个月内盘点这两年内我们偏远地区学校进入校事会议的调查的案件包含有多少案件未配置法律专家主管机关提供了哪些协助个案的费用是多少学校的自行负担是多少所以我想说"},{"start":15629.202,"end":15645.115,"text":"是不是交易部應該提出一個全國一致性的效益事件調查的經費補助原則依照地方財力分期的補助不再讓偏鄉以銷務基金或者是滾存經費來自行吸收謝謝委員你提到的問題剛好就是在之前因為確實"},{"start":15646.976,"end":15675.274,"text":"那時候在立法的時候有考慮到偏鄉比較不容易找到這個相關的人才庫他訓練他比較不願意去所以他寫一個暫時的就是說那個不再實現那這一次我們的這個改革的制度的那個裡面我們會把這個偏鄉這個問題再納入進一步看怎麼樣解決包括經費的補助或者說這個法律的輔助等等我們會再來討論初步了解一下那委員所提到的就是說"},{"start":15675.734,"end":15699.071,"text":"那校士會議進入校士會議這些偏鄉的這個個案裡面是後來是怎麼決定的後來的情況怎麼樣我們會再查一下資料庫然後在下個月的這個報告裡面來處理這個問題好謝謝那第二就是我們看到可能會有一些學生的差別在於因為文化的背景啊或者說教室被固定這樣一個困境那我想先說就是在"},{"start":15699.971,"end":15714.827,"text":"受理這個調查跟報告的格式當中有沒有一個欄位要求在調查小組先檢視這個案件是否有涉及文化、語言、特教及其他個案的需求有沒有要求在調查小組說明是否需要文化專業、特教專業、心理專業跟學生權益專業來協助"},{"start":15717.91,"end":15732.006,"text":"而不是說這個調查小組一進來說就先問有沒有違規或者是要不要懲處這樣的一個優先順序第二個就是針對老師的食物壓力就是我們看到你們說要結合SEL這個機制那我覺得這個具體"},{"start":15732.967,"end":15748.357,"text":"這個做法到底是什麼?當偏鄉原住民學校的老師真正面臨調查的時候充滿恐慌的時候這個機制到底能夠提供什麼樣及時的幫忙?假設案件發生在原鄉這些派去支援的輔導人員是不是具備文化敏感度?"},{"start":15749.205,"end":15768.356,"text":"對委員這些提醒非常好我們在這個檢討的時候我們會把它納入一併的考慮的確那個原名的老師他在他的那個文化背景特殊那在調查過程裡面會不會因為文化的落差或誤解造成那個調查的偏頗這都有可能所以我們在"},{"start":15770.297,"end":15785.99,"text":"歷次的這個檢討裡面確實沒有去注意到這一點我們會把委員的意見 把它納入總統想說這不是三個月內能夠盤點校室會議線型受理調查計畫調查報告的格式解釋是否已經有具備這些我剛才講的欄位我們來檢討 三個月會給委員"},{"start":15790.734,"end":15796.176,"text":"第三方責任調查機構的設置,我相信交易部已經在研議了,最後就是全教總的強烈訴求,你們的具體態度是什麼呢?"},{"start":15809.941,"end":15836.538,"text":"就是希望能夠廢除這個校事會議我們尊重全教總的訴求可是因為校園環境裡面除了老師還有家長還有學生還有各種教育團體所以有些家長團體也許多數家長團體是反對的所以我們怎麼讓這個制度上路之後得到一些檢討修正那我們持續來聽各界的意見"},{"start":15837.398,"end":15853.179,"text":"就個人的經驗呢有些本身的朋友就是很優秀的老師因為接受了調查以後感覺就是生薰濟痞啊要黯然離開這個職場啊我覺得說這個預設有罪的這個具體方案能不能也可以寫出來"},{"start":15853.92,"end":15874.819,"text":"所以今天很多委員提到法律支持的部分还有之前有的心理智商的部分能够进一步落实这个我们会在未来在落实制度的过程里面会有一些配套的资源投入跟制度的建立好 谢谢次长好 谢谢卢先义委员的咨询请次长回座"},{"start":15876.024,"end":15890.115,"text":"今天登记质询委员均已发言完毕询答结束对于委员质询时要求提供的相关资料或未及答复的部分请相关机关尽速以书面答复另有"},{"start":15891.215,"end":15893.438,"text":"报告委员会今日议程处理完毕大家辛苦了现在散会"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}