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謝謝第八位母語共學員創辦人林淑照老師"},{"start":2241.101,"end":2269.438,"text":"好那還有幾位後面陸續到來我們再陸續的繼續介紹那現在呢我們來介紹與會的官員介紹教育部政務次長張廖萬堅張廖次長國家教育研究院原住民族教育研究中心主任周惠敏主任"},{"start":2272.196,"end":2296.163,"text":"援助民主委員會副主任委員杜章梅莊副主委再繼續介紹好了因為那個有到的我都一起介紹好了來教育部縱規司副司長張金淑張副司長縱規司李新信科長"},{"start":2298.749,"end":2326.957,"text":"高教司賴冠偉專門委員技術及職業教育司蔡秉新科長師藝司周佩君科長國潛署何采盈科長園民會教文處邱文龍副處長教文處黃明廷科長"},{"start":2328.763,"end":2352.957,"text":"好謝謝大家的參與那現在其餘列席的機關代表那有的我就不再逐一介紹謝謝大家好那我可以先請官員嗎好今天我們是不是先依序邀請我們的部會做報告"},{"start":2354.389,"end":2370.37,"text":"首先呢我们先宣布一下等一下发言的规则每位发言的时间是七分钟在第六分钟的时候会有铃声提醒七分钟结束的时候会有一个结束长铃"},{"start":2371.411,"end":2393.324,"text":"学者专家发言的顺序我们以签到的先后顺序为准现场发言还有书面资料立法院都会做成记录刊登公报那本院的委员如果要发言请在10点前至主席台登记那我们会在会议中穿插安排"},{"start":2394.699,"end":2415.967,"text":"上午10點以後登記的委員呢要安排在所有學者專家發言完畢之後再按登記順序發言如果需要提前發言我們再來視情況著與調整那現在我們就先請教育部張料萬監次長就現行的規定執行的狀況相關的問題來做說明時間是7分鐘請"},{"start":2426.574,"end":2445.524,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好那麼感謝各界對原住民族教育的發展的關心那今天大院教育文化委員會來召開建構原住民族教育自主治理體系原住民族學校立法的公聽會那麼本部呈邀列席報告"},{"start":2446.384,"end":2474.264,"text":"並得聆聽各位委員各界先進以及專家學者的寶貴意見而甚感榮幸原住民族學校的設置是為了打造完整實用的原住民族教育體系也是維護原住民族教育權的具體表現那麼本部支持原住民族學校的設立那麼來落實憲法依原住民之民族意願保障原住民族教育權利那麼彰顯原住民族自主自決"},{"start":2475.345,"end":2499.728,"text":"以下請就跨部會合作逐步完成建立完整的原住民族教育體系來進行說明那麼敬請各位先進來指教第一部分有關背景的說明那麼第一聯合國原住民族權利宣言以及我國憲法的徵修條文那麼原住民族有權建立及掌管自己的教育體系和機構"},{"start":2501.169,"end":2518.422,"text":"1.民族意願保障原住民族教育權利彰顯原住民族自主自決2.105年行政院對原住民族政策之部會分工以明確分工由本部全面修正《原住民族教育法》"},{"start":2519.597,"end":2533.637,"text":"並由原民會研議制定原住民學校法來逐步建立完整的原住民族教育體制那麼兩部會呢均以積極推動相關的工作並經多次的協調跟溝通"},{"start":2534.656,"end":2554.121,"text":"那麼其中原住民族教育法已經在108年的6月19號完成全條文的修正公佈那麼第四條呢明定原住民族學校是指以原住民族知識體系為主那麼一該民族教育哲學與目標實施教育的學校"},{"start":2554.881,"end":2569.961,"text":"那麼以及第五條規定為了發展及厚植原住民族的知識體系中央原住民族主管機關應會商、教育、科技、文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系中長城計畫"},{"start":2571.462,"end":2595.131,"text":"那麼第二個部分有關跨部會合作逐步建立完整的原住民族教育體系方面那麼針對本次公聽會各界關切的議題本部將持續配合原民會的規劃就法規、制度、課程、師資培育等面向共同來推動原住民族學校來完備原住民族教育體系那麼說明如下"},{"start":2595.791,"end":2622.042,"text":"一有關原住民族學校法的制定原民會呢已表示將整合現階段原住民族知識體系架構及內容那麼使課程知識承載得以具體化並充實之以利原住民族文化傳承並與原住民族學校事辦計畫來評估原住民族學校設立的方式源而組成執行模式等事宜"},{"start":2622.984,"end":2641.803,"text":"那麼透過試辦的方式來建構基礎制度、師資以及課程等內容作為未來推展原住民族學校的規劃基礎那麼二本部會會同園民會於114年的12月訂定發布了原住民族教育發展計畫"},{"start":2642.884,"end":2654.063,"text":"那麼期限是從115年到119年那麼園民會已經積極提出多項相關的具體措施以及推動的重點舉例說明如下"},{"start":2655.202,"end":2675.028,"text":"一在推展知識體系及眷權民族教育課程方面具體措施包含深化原住民族知識體系建構工作以及教育領域之運用那麼依據原住民族知識體系內涵來研發高級中等以下學校民族教育課程等"},{"start":2675.836,"end":2695.188,"text":"那麼推動的重點並納入推動原住民族本位教材研發以及師資培育促進知識的轉化二在推動原住民族學校設立方面推動的重點包括持續推動原住民族知識體系以及原住民族教育哲學研究發展"},{"start":2695.928,"end":2711.067,"text":"工作那麼來奠定原住民族學校各項推動工作的堅實基礎那麼持續來研議原住民族學校的制度衝擊影響法案的先期規劃等等那麼推動原住民族學校的事辦計畫"},{"start":2712.729,"end":2733.934,"text":"來充分維護原住民族家長及學生的教育及選擇權那麼最後原住民族學校法是各界相當關注的法案我們肯認原住民族主體性的精神要落實原住民族教育自主治理本部將會與原民會密切來合作"},{"start":2734.614,"end":2750.891,"text":"共同維護原住民族教育權也逐步來完善原住民族教育體系的制度連結以及發展的條件來促進原住民族教育的穩健推展那麼以上報告敬請各位委員及先進不定指教謝謝各位"},{"start":2752.073,"end":2772.592,"text":"好谢谢张廖万坚次长所做的一个说明那我相信资料纸本都在各位的桌上大家可以很清楚的看到那接下来呢我们要邀请的是圆明会杜张梅庄副主任委员来做一个报告时间是五分钟"},{"start":2778.846,"end":2799.835,"text":"主席委員各機關代表跟各位專家學者先進大家好大家平安很高興邀請本會出席這一次的原住民主學校立法的公聽會讓本會有機會針對原住民學校立法相關政策之進程做一個溝通今天就"},{"start":2801.846,"end":2818.308,"text":"所提的五項提綱主義做一個簡單扼要的說明因為我們也有書面資料請大家參閱提綱一的部分何謂原住民族學校原住民族學校和一般學校或是現行的習業學校最大的不同在於它全面轉向以原住民族文化為主體"},{"start":2819.369,"end":2843.995,"text":"沉浸式實踐為核心的教育模式除了國民教育外更核心的是教授主義傳統智慧與部落生活技能為現階段我們必須面對三大嚴峻的挑戰第一個師資到位具備文化與主義專業的師資培育還沒有完全選接貿然推行會衝擊教學的品質第二個家長的餘力"},{"start":2845.755,"end":2862.774,"text":"升學轉學以學歷認證的配套如果不足家長會光望學校就會面臨沒有學生來源的危機第三教材的斷層傳統知識的系統化轉移仍在起步且跨部落的文化差異很大"},{"start":2863.655,"end":2891.783,"text":"很難標準化因此現階段本會採取穩健過渡的方案也就是利用現行的公辦民營模式結合地方政府的資源以民間的文化專業循序的推展提綱二的部分原住民族學校的設立與治理的模式目前我們主要依賴實驗教育三法作為法治基礎但實務上學校還是常常受到一般課綱地方行政框架"},{"start":2892.563,"end":2914.359,"text":"和實驗年限的月制為了突破體制的局限在學校治理上應導入三個核心機制第一個部落共治建立制度化的部落之一小組並把足以能力列為學校評鑑的核心指標第二個是文化的領導校長與行政團隊的領銜優先考量具以援助"},{"start":2915.2,"end":2939.488,"text":"原住民教育理念與原鄉服務經驗者第三個是公辦民營的彈性政府出資民間肥盈利機構經營聘任部落棋老或文化專才時人事彈性比一般公立學校更高目前公立學校轉型的從高雄市的新中國小公辦民營的案例這個當中可以看見發展的可能該校實際"},{"start":2942.376,"end":2969.379,"text":"該校落實了這個技儀的學習制在師制上推動布農族與拉魯瓦族的分族化培育並保障原編制不願留任教師的權益為我們樹立了很好的創新模式提供雙課程語言與文化傳承本會近年積極支持各族的知識研究中心並整合地方資源編撰民主本會教科書"},{"start":2970.697,"end":2988.644,"text":"另推動足以沉浸環境營造教學上強調國家課程與民族課程的雙軌銜接並透過齊老協同教學和部落實踐讓學生在自然情境中沉浸式的學習為了建構平衡的學習與學歷認證制度"},{"start":2990.385,"end":3014.518,"text":"地方教育局需提供行政支持規劃清晰的升學路徑透過課後輔導保障基本學歷並採任學生的學歷學習歷程與傳統知識探索讓學生的無形文化成果能夠實質轉化為正式學業的憑證銜接多元入學管道藉此消擬家長對升學的疑惑提綱是"},{"start":3016.055,"end":3036.863,"text":"師資培育與教育專業的制度,針對現行的職前培育與現場教學的落差本會目前具體的政策是推動足以公費專班並規定援營教育師資必須休息相關的文化研習同時協調師大等校保留公費生的名額以穩固師資的根基"},{"start":3037.583,"end":3066.26,"text":"另為了穩定學生的來源透過法規鬆綁彈性引進不具傳統教師資格但擁有傳統技師技藝的部落期老與專家協同教學落實文化主體性另為確保教育品質與降低公立學校的轉型主力針對原編制但不願留任的教師依法絕對保障工作權與借聘權益願意留任或新進的教師除享有公立學校的薪資外"},{"start":3067.781,"end":3078.751,"text":"徵社績效獎金以專業津貼校內也搭配教師共備的社群由地方原教中心提供外部的資源提供行政組織財政制度以偵測支持"},{"start":3082.062,"end":3107.621,"text":"原住民族教育推展需要中央與地方的緊密分工中央負責政策經費補助與實質管制地方政府則透過原民教育審議進行跨處市的統整並由原教中心與課發協作中心提供第一線的後勤補給在經費上透過政府常規預算與民間專責機構建立多元的經費保障管道例如在"},{"start":3108.101,"end":3136.755,"text":"公辦民營模式中原委會扮演關鍵角色挹注資金投入課程人事及AI助惠系統的建置另外本會專案補助轉型學校籌備期500萬正式執行期間每年1000萬用來實質補助人事與民族教育經費以上是本會對今天公聽會五項提供的二要說明敬請指教沙寶麻煩您了謝謝原民會杜章副主委的報告"},{"start":3139.537,"end":3161.258,"text":"在這裡呢機關代表的說明已經完畢那相關的書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我在這邊要來先說明前言跟討論提綱今天我們辦理這一場公聽會各位可以看到桌面上的資料"},{"start":3162.27,"end":3172.228,"text":"我们有四位委员目前已经有原住民族学校法的提案版本一位是黄人委员"},{"start":3173.41,"end":3202.244,"text":"另外有高金素美委員 武力華委員 林倩琦委員等有四個版本在上一屆的時候有三個版本有高金素美委員 鍾嘉斌委員 武力華委員因為原住民族學校法的提出其實早在蔡英文總統她的政策白皮書她就有提到要做原住民族學校"},{"start":3203.407,"end":3224.497,"text":"後來到了2024年賴清德總統我們又看到他提出雙軌制的教育可是直到今天2026年我們似乎都覺得原住民族學校法好像遙遙無期那到底是因為"},{"start":3225.678,"end":3250.624,"text":"政府沒有態度還是因為整個社會沒有共識我想今天辦理這場公聽會有這樣一個主要的原因那今天的公聽會我們的具體目標呢在我們的資料上面我就稍微念一下第一個要凝聚原住民族教育自主治理之社會共識"},{"start":3252.644,"end":3258.946,"text":"2.厘清原住民族学校之法律定位与制度内涵3."},{"start":3258.946,"end":3266.788,"text":"搜集部落、族人、家长、教师及教育工作者的意见与需求4."},{"start":3266.788,"end":3274.15,"text":"研议原住民族学校之治理机制、课程发展及师资制度5."},{"start":3274.15,"end":3279.271,"text":"检视中央与地方政府之权责分工及资源配置"},{"start":3280.111,"end":3298.853,"text":"第六建立兼顾文化传承教育品质与学生发展之援助民族教育体系最后作为援助民族学校法制定及政策推动之参考依据那我们有提供五个"},{"start":3300.095,"end":3324.936,"text":"討論提綱那各位學者專家呢可以就這五個部分來提供意見方便我們去凝聚共識那謝謝各位的參與那我在這邊呢也要稍微我坐下來我就說明一下其實我個人呢也一直在學校時期倡議"},{"start":3326.687,"end":3355.184,"text":"我們要來做自己的本位教材族群本位教材那最終的目標是希望可以建立原住民族的學校那我在103年我們有做一個屏東縣的原住民族課程發展中心各位可以看一下那個照片其實我有點感慨就是請你到這邊好嗎因為擋住"},{"start":3358.291,"end":3361.039,"text":"可以看到由右而左有科华威"},{"start":3362.709,"end":3391.591,"text":"當時他是國教院院長那再來是中嘉賓委員他當時是屏東縣政府副縣長那陳坤生處長可見他當處長很久了那還有歐用生教授陳伯璋教授還有馮朝霖教授那這張照片真的很令我感慨因為已經有三個人離開這個世界而且他們都是很重要的課程巨擘"},{"start":3393.013,"end":3415.734,"text":"但是一路走来好像原住民族学校似乎是一个很遥不可及的目标那到底问题出在哪里我想今天的公听会就是希望听听大家的意见那过去我们成立了这个课程发展中心之后就是致力于编转本位教科书"},{"start":3416.727,"end":3420.773,"text":"所以呢在108年103到108年三年的時間在排灣組的部分我們編出了44冊99本為什麼講44冊因為一到六年級"},{"start":3432.518,"end":3458.564,"text":"還有包括習作本教師手冊所以44冊99本四個學習領域那盧凱族的部分呢做得比較快但是領域比較少那做出來的東西是什麼呢各位可以看一下會發現如果在國語文領域你可以看到他是有我們的原住民族文字"},{"start":3459.881,"end":3487.46,"text":"然后它也有它的文学性它也有它的文化回应但是最重要的是它是以自己族群文化为本长出来的这个不是国家可以制定出来的也不是一般的民间书商会能够为我们做出来的这个只能够靠我们自己所以我们看得到说着排湾语的英国人又或者说我们可以看得到"},{"start":3488.42,"end":3511.589,"text":"适合我们的这一些七言绝句或者是我们的像巴奈守护家园它也可以进入到课本里面甚至是像我们的南回的心跳这一些都可以进入到我们的课本当中那么在这个几年当中我们看到教育部跟园民会也很努力"},{"start":3512.935,"end":3521.737,"text":"我们现在可以看得到沉浸式的幼儿园我们也可以在国小国中可以有援助民族教育的课程"},{"start":3522.791,"end":3545.183,"text":"甚至是我們也有了所謂的實驗班實驗學校或者是大學的原專班看起來好像從我們的幼兒一直到我們的高等教育現在好像是遍地開花那到底我們的下一步要往哪裡走那我要回過頭來講其實過去"},{"start":3548.385,"end":3563.259,"text":"我在2016年的5月也就是马政府时期最后一位教育部长吴斯华部长他曾经就是特别的赞许说应该鼓励16族的原住民族教材都要编转"},{"start":3564.571,"end":3582.752,"text":"那麼2016年蔡英文政府上任之後7月潘文忠部長他也來看到那個教材他也覺得說應該全面16組要來開始做自己族群本位的教材但是很遺憾就是10年過去了"},{"start":3583.413,"end":3611.161,"text":"我們好像也沒有看到課綱也沒有看到課程教材真的很遺憾可是我們看一下我們做的這些事情是冒出來的嗎其實2007年的聯合國原住民族人權宣言寫得很清楚原住民族有權建立和掌管他們的教育制度和機構以自己的語言和適合其文化教學的方法提供教育寫得很清楚"},{"start":3611.881,"end":3632.594,"text":"這也是為什麼我們有底氣跟歷任的總統去表達我們要擁有自己的教育體系所以我們看到羨慕的毛利族他們在幼兒園階段有實施沉浸式的學校我們現在也有了 雖然不是全面普遍"},{"start":3633.314,"end":3657.287,"text":"他們在小學有英語加毛利語的沉浸式學校可是我們至今我們的小學充其量我們有實驗學校多一點的民族教育多一點的主語課程那國中高中大學他們都有毛利語教學語言作為教學語言這個是我們目前"},{"start":3658.567,"end":3687.487,"text":"从小学到大学完全还没有做到的我们都还没有办法用我们自己族群的语言作为教学语言那我自己是在2016年离开教育界所以我也曾经在原教界常常那个时候也有问我们实验学校实验教育的下一步何去何从所以我也常常去表达我个人的想法"},{"start":3688.067,"end":3709.835,"text":"那我自己其實是在離開教育界之前我是很希望能夠做援助民族學校當時謝謝園民會前瞻計畫有一筆經費可以來做部落之心可以去表達這個部落之心你到底要做什麼那當時我們的提案是我們要做部落學校"},{"start":3711.076,"end":3724.411,"text":"很可惜因为后来离开教育界也没有办法进攻但是2018年立法院终于有了原住民族学校法的一个草案的一个搜诊"},{"start":3725.492,"end":3751.895,"text":"那2019年呢國家語言發展法也已經明定學校教育使用各國家語言為之也就是說我們正式的可以用我們各族群的國家語言來實施我們的學校教育那2019年呢原住民族教育法第六條也提到各級政府應鼓勵各級各類學校以原住民族語言"},{"start":3752.836,"end":3780.732,"text":"及適應原住民學生文化的教學方法提供他的教育需求也就是說到這個時候其實已經完備了這樣的一個法令基礎那2020年蔡英文總統她親自說她希望可以來做原住民主學校可是我們進入到立法院我也多次的質詢原民會跟教育部甚至是我們的大院"},{"start":3781.272,"end":3796.822,"text":"的總質詢很可惜就是一直沒有辦法再推進下一步那到了2024賴清德總統上任他也直接說他希望推動所謂的原住民族學校的雙軌制"},{"start":3798.463,"end":3824.59,"text":"我们也看到105年走到114学年度已经有高国中小45校参与实验学校但是我们做了这么多年到底我们累积的能量能够为下一步带来什么所以在这里很高兴今天我们看到版本"},{"start":3825.851,"end":3854.966,"text":"也在各位的手上那等一下就要開始聽各位學者專家的發言我們真的很希望凝聚共識原住民族學校到底是什麼我們凝聚版本然後我們共同來推動那希望讓我們所有的原住民學校重點學校原住民族實驗學校我們可以知道我們的下一步往哪裡但是對我而言我認為原住民族學校其實沒有那麼可怕"},{"start":3855.606,"end":3877.981,"text":"因為他就是屬於我們國民教育的一環那麼他可能有獨特的這些教學方法教育理念其實在原住民族學校裡面也可以辦理自己獨特教學法理念的實驗教育這個都是沒有問題的那所以對我而言他的操作型定義會變成以"},{"start":3881.66,"end":3897.616,"text":"現有師資為來源用使用一定比例的族群語言作為教學語言採用各族群的課綱課程教材實施這種所謂基本國民教育的學校所以教育部作為一個主管機關"},{"start":3898.717,"end":3915.786,"text":"他管的是各階段的相關教育法規包括老師校長的培育任用好穩定師資的供應那園民會呢作為一個主辦機關他來設立這個原住民族學校發展各族群的一個"},{"start":3916.486,"end":3931.338,"text":"所謂的課綱研發各族群的課程教材然後建構原住民的族的各個一個知識體系那他的師資來源呢除了師培的公費生各級學校的老師"},{"start":3932.119,"end":3958.881,"text":"具文化認證的棋老取得教師證的族裔老師實務專業的這一些公益技術老師其實都可以在我們的原住民族學校那在這裡呢我就先做這樣的一個說明因為我們都知道母語斷文化滅認同亡那延續我們族群的兩大關鍵就是我們的語言跟我們的文化"},{"start":3959.341,"end":3981.741,"text":"那今天謝謝各個學者專家還有立法委員一同來參與那我現在呢就介紹補充一下到場的學者專家還有嗎好來好第九位參與的學者專家國立台東大學教育學系的王乾隆教授謝謝老師"},{"start":3983.968,"end":3999.07,"text":"好第十位是來自桃園市羅浮高中的Massal Billing校長謝謝好接下來我們開始請學者專家發言首先第一位我們邀請的是李文綺主任"},{"start":4022.529,"end":4031.57,"text":"吳立華主席還有張亮萬堅次長各位委員各位與會先進以及各位關心原住民族教育的夥伴們大家早安"},{"start":4033.29,"end":4060.13,"text":"我目前在鄰民基督學院是一位大學教授但是我也曾經在新北市立原住民重點學校烏來國中校擔任過五年的校長那目前也是新北市的一個實驗教育審議委員那所以我個人就今天這三種身份我用多重的視角來跟各位探討今天的建構原住民族教育自治"},{"start":4061.191,"end":4087.949,"text":"體系援助民族學校法立法公聽會那我想我深刻感受到這部法案絕對不僅僅是法律條文的堆疊它更是台灣教育體系追求民族主體性邁向文化永續新階段的一個重要里程碑那針對本次公聽會的探討提綱我個人用學術的觀點然後提出四個面向"},{"start":4088.709,"end":4106.004,"text":"第一個面向是法律定位跟治理模式第二個面向是有關於知識體系深度的融合第三個面向是關於師資培育的核心轉型那第四個面向是有關於行政組織跟財政的保障那在第一個面向有關於"},{"start":4107.265,"end":4130.742,"text":"有關於法律定位跟自治的模式我想第一個一定要確立所謂的部落的主體性那我回應提綱當中關於何謂原住民族學校及治理模式的一個探討那首先我想我們必須明確的區隔原住民族學校不應該只是被視為特殊類型的學校"},{"start":4131.582,"end":4146.856,"text":"或是現行實驗教育學校的延伸我想實驗教育的核心重點是在於所謂的教學方法的創新但是原住民族學校的核心是在於知識主體的落實因此"},{"start":4147.617,"end":4172.511,"text":"我建議在法律的定位上應將其確立為具備民族教育主體性直接對接部落治理體系的一個教育機構那在治理的一個機制上不能再只由教育行政機關單向的管理而是必須建立部落教育委員會作為治理結構的一個核心"},{"start":4173.311,"end":4201.158,"text":"那此外要針對現有偏鄉教育的一個轉型我想我們必須要尊重部落的一個意願然後採取由下而上的一個策略絕對要避免強迫式的一個行政整併才能夠確保文化傳承的一個連續性這是第一點那有關於第二點在推動原住民族知識體系的一個深度融合部分"},{"start":4204.568,"end":4222.535,"text":"我想在課程跟文化的一個傳承部分我們也不能再把原住民文化當作外加課程或是一個點綴而是要在實質推動原住民族知識體系的在地化教材的一個邊轉"},{"start":4223.675,"end":4246.674,"text":"而這個架構必須跟在地生態知識深度的連結讓教育內容跟部落的一個遂時記憶、地理環境緊密掛鉤其實我在烏來丹丁校長的期間我們曾經跟師大教育系合作一個四年的計畫我們去改編了國小部的一個自然科教材"},{"start":4247.535,"end":4272.113,"text":"結果自然科教材裡面把裡面的圖片置換成跟烏來相關的動植物還有我們泰雅族慣用的這些語言就跟剛剛我們主席所提的在排灣族所編轉的教材很類似結果我們經過四年的研究發現說烏來的孩子在學習興趣跟動機有明顯的提升這也就是在這一點我要強調的"},{"start":4273.334,"end":4288.369,"text":"同時為了兼顧國家課程跟民族課程的銜接我建議法規應該賦予原住民族學校較高的課程自主權打破現行僵化的審查機制在升學跟評量上我"},{"start":4289.444,"end":4314.409,"text":"覺得必須要設計多元化的一個評量方式確保我們的孩子在具備高度民族文化素養的同時也能夠順利銜接中高等教育的專業需求這是在第二點的部分那有關於第三點也就是我在這次建議當中最想強調的一點就是師資培育的核心轉型各位委員這是"},{"start":4316.058,"end":4341.386,"text":"在這一個我擔任烏來的校長期間我有一個很深的體會在校園裡最優秀的老師往往不是學歷最高的那一位而是最願意蹲下來向部落齊老學習並能夠將部落智慧帶回課堂的那一位可是很遺憾的目前的法規卻往往強迫老師成為單向式的學科傳遞者"},{"start":4342.83,"end":4367.454,"text":"扼殺了他們成為文化橋樑的可能性那原因將在文化斷層的一個問題上往往就是源於失之不穩定還有非在地化的結構性困境因此我強調必須突破現行失之培育法單一學位跟證書的一個邏輯建立一套專業學術跟部落知識實踐並重的雙軌認證機制因此我們應該設立兩類的核心"},{"start":4373.896,"end":4396.206,"text":"專業人士第一個就是民族專業教師第二個我姑且稱為部落傳承師而民族教師就是具備教育學專業跟學科資能而且需要通過特定族語跟文化認證那部落傳承師我個人認為是由部落依照傳統習慣來推舉具備深厚的傳統知識跟實踐的一個經驗"},{"start":4403.612,"end":4405.862,"text":"那再來就是我們所謂的"},{"start":4409.366,"end":4432.631,"text":"或許有人會質疑說那這樣會不會降低師資培育的水準或教育的品質我要在這邊鄭重的澄清原住民族學校法的師資認知不是要降低標準而是要擴大我們所謂的專業的定義將原本傳統知識體系的傳承納入法治填補了長久以來學術知識跟生活文化斷層的一個縫隙"},{"start":4433.951,"end":4451.468,"text":"本身其實就是對台灣教育最大的品質提升另外我也認為說我們應該推動分族培育跟在地培育的策略由學校跟部落還有大學合作來開設專屬的學程對於在職的老師也應該增列在地生化義務條款"},{"start":4452.549,"end":4459.774,"text":"要求教師每一年有一定的比例時間參與部落社會工作或知識採集或知識採集讓師資的維持絕對的一個在地性"},{"start":4468.336,"end":4486.506,"text":"好那最後一點就是有關於行政組織跟財政財源的一個法制那我們認為教育的發展不能依賴一般的預算或短期的一個專案我們應該要設立原住民族教育發展的基金來具體法治化確保我們基金的一個配置穩定"},{"start":4487.426,"end":4510.386,"text":"然後避免因為政黨更迭而或是地方預算排擠而中斷再來我認為應該明確全責分工我們釐清文化部教育部跟原民會之間的全責分工同時我們要建立一個跨部會的一個諮詢平台來設立原住民族教育諮詢的一個平台解決文化推廣跟學校實務的脫節那最後我的結語是"},{"start":4511.607,"end":4536.749,"text":"我們的目的不在於設立一個被隔離的教育體系而是開闢一條讓原住民族知識體系跟主流對話而且平等存在的一個路徑讓所有來到原鄉的老師都能夠在部落的溫暢中長出專業的尊嚴跟在地知識體系這是一項需要極大耐心跟社會溝通的希望工程好 我報告這邊 謝謝"},{"start":4538.752,"end":4559.949,"text":"非常感谢黎明技术学院我们李文琦主任的一个报告那接下来呢我们邀请到国立屏东大学教育学系大家都知道他对原住民族学校其实他是我的启蒙老师啦我们谢谢陈志烈教授"},{"start":4562.13,"end":4582.059,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員 各位教育先進 大家早安 大家好非常高興有這個機會來參與大院的民主教育體系建構的一個公聽會針對這四個版本 我個人有一些的潛見跟大家做一些的報告 供大家後續的討論"},{"start":4585.081,"end":4601.713,"text":"在這四個版本其實都是倡議設立獨立學制的學校這是很難能可貴的也常常會引用剛剛主席也好或者是其他的學者專家也好都會提到的聯合國原住民權利宣言第14條"},{"start":4602.774,"end":4620.949,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常重要的指標如果未來的整個民主教育體系或者是民主學校都可以呼應民主自主的精神跟信念我們的民主學校或民主教育體系就會是一個很成功的典範"},{"start":4622.691,"end":4649.012,"text":"可是从这四个版本的后续的条文内容来看其实有不少的条文都是很值得我们再进一步思考的后续的许多条文包括的行政管理或者是师资培育或者是课程或者是学校组织甚至于人员任用都是很欠缺民主自主的精神"},{"start":4650.053,"end":4675.486,"text":"因此建議能夠針對這四個版本相關的一些條文能夠採取更有民主主體性的去思考而不會僅僅只是很有現在學校的模式或者是現在學校治理的那種現象的一些條文這是第一點第二點民主學校的學制從條文當中來看其實"},{"start":4680.148,"end":4704.32,"text":"大部分都是採取所謂的六三三四制雖然在民主學校裡面還沒有提到所謂的民主大學那麼都是從國小一年級到高中三年級這樣的一個現象我個人認為跟各個族群的原有的民族教育或是各個族群文化傳承當中的一些機制有很大的一些差異"},{"start":4705.2,"end":4710.806,"text":"所以這樣的6334字的學制就會變成各民主要穿一樣的鞋子"},{"start":4712.988,"end":4741.038,"text":"大家要穿一样的鞋子可是大家都知道各个族群其实在部落组织或者是未来的学校制度上事实上都会有他自己的主体性的一些掌握所以如果说举例说如果卑南族想采取他原来那个打鼓办就是那个青少年会所或者是说他的把他冠的青年会所作为他整个的学校学校的一种模式"},{"start":4743.036,"end":4760.291,"text":"雖然說大家會考慮到說那都是男子事實上從這個模式當中也可以有一些女性的一些學校組織的一些設置所以如果是這樣的狀況的時候那麼很顯然的在現在的條文當中並沒有辦法"},{"start":4762.011,"end":4777.996,"text":"允许这样的学校组织或者是学习组织的出现所以我想就是我们都知道牛肉面市场就很多种那么要符合顾客的需求的时候所以民主学校也就应该可以去设置可以"},{"start":4778.996,"end":4793.222,"text":"採取那個多元的設置而不僅僅只是以現在這樣的條文在呈現這是第二點第三點在各版本的條文當中民族教育的實施固然從課程跟教學上有一些的說明但是從這個內容條文當中看到"},{"start":4797.404,"end":4813.698,"text":"绝大部分都是在学校去实施不一定在校内可是呢我们认真说起来从现在的实验教育计划的学校也好或者是未来的民主学校也好民主教育的实施其实一定会一定会很频繁的在"},{"start":4814.358,"end":4830.775,"text":"部落的田地部落的獵場河流森林祭場等等的一些傳統領域當中來進行所以如果我們條文無法在這樣的一個信念當中來提供部落參與或者是跟"},{"start":4832.18,"end":4847.998,"text":"学校一起共同合作这样的条文好让整个民族教育体系未来的运作它真正的能够让学生学到部落的智慧让学生成为一个真正具有原住民灵魂的主人的时候那么"},{"start":4849.72,"end":4871.054,"text":"之前有的條文我覺得是很不足夠的所以會建議在條文當中去增加部落跟學校的關係以及部落跟學校能夠平等合作的角色這些相關的條文這是有關於這個四個版本個人的建議要談到就是整個的教育體系這件事情我們在"},{"start":4872.633,"end":4890.59,"text":"從今天的會議的提綱來看有五個面向總共有25個指向事實上這些項目跟民主學校的關係是非常緊密的是非常緊密但如果我們就每一個指向來說其實都是很重要而且是問題跟工作任務是"},{"start":4891.07,"end":4918.297,"text":"很繁重的那麼以今天我們的會議來說其實很不容易雖然有一些的倡議但是其實很不容易能夠有一些具體的答案這是我個人是這樣的認為所以民主教育體系的倡議或是規劃推動跟落實確實是需要一項需要時間需要組織需要資源結合的一個工程那麼這樣的體系其實包含了"},{"start":4919.725,"end":4933.592,"text":"我個人曾經在2008年接受人民會的委託規劃了民主教育體系八年二期的政策方案把這些的內涵通通包含在這裡面那麼這些內涵包含了民主教育哲學跟目標"},{"start":4934.793,"end":4950.781,"text":"學校制度讓今天的會議裡面提到民主學校課程設計師資培育任用學生入學學習輔導畢業或者是行政組織的管理運作經費的資源取得等等這七個元素所以如果我們需要一個"},{"start":4952.482,"end":4968.219,"text":"這樣的一個教育體系的推動我個人建議希望有一個專責的單位例如民族教育體系的推動中心來統整來規劃來執行那麼以目前人民會我們知道會裡的業務或者是會的人力其實"},{"start":4968.86,"end":4992.728,"text":"事實上或者是相關的資源其實是很難以來關照整個民族教育體系的規劃推動跟落實因此建議立法院能夠督促政府設立專責的單位並提供足夠的人力經費來使各項的事務能夠依照順序來完成以上謝謝好準時謝謝陳志烈教授"},{"start":4994.94,"end":5007.449,"text":"那个八年计划那个纸本我们有印给大家吗好那我们可能要再提供谢谢好接下来呢有请正天才委员这怎么弄"},{"start":5026.39,"end":5033.314,"text":"很抱歉啊怎么了"},{"start":5061.915,"end":5077.247,"text":"主席各機關的代表還有專家寫者非常謝謝吳立華委員能夠安排今天的公聽會我只是要把這個過程讓大家了解"},{"start":5079.606,"end":5100.503,"text":"原住民族教育法这个87年公布实行87年是原住民族的第一个专法原住民族教育法87年公布实行然后102年5月22号修正当然前面也有修正过102年5月22号修正"},{"start":5104.113,"end":5117.702,"text":"其中第四條增加了第四款原住民族學校所以原住民族學校這個用詞開始在法律所明定是在102年5月22號到現在已經這麼久了好108年5月24號"},{"start":5127.768,"end":5156.42,"text":"立法院修正通过原住民族教育法的全文的修正全文的修正从87年到108年108年全文修正如果我们看这个立法院的意思就可以看得到瓜福二瓜福二行政院还请审议原住民族教育法修正长案进复二读为什么是进复二读只有原住民立委的版本"},{"start":5157.751,"end":5182.081,"text":"只有原住民立委的版本審查了很多次今天也要 其實是要拜託無理法委員今天開了這個公聽會就審了 就審查了審查就讓行政院版本大家看了 原住民主教育法全文修正的時候行政院是近乎二讀"},{"start":5185.063,"end":5208.399,"text":"審查教育文化委員會跟內政委員會聯席審查的時候沒有行政院的版本喔是被逼出來拿出來的所以這是我的拜託啦這個是當然今天開的公聽會很好當然要再開公聽會要怎麼就這個條文做更仔細更審慎更好也都可以但是"},{"start":5209.52,"end":5238.863,"text":"我們立法院絕對原住民族的立委要共同的開始來推動因為這已經很久了108年其實這張版本這邊看得出來108年5月10號5月10號是後來進夫二讀的跟這個並案協商跟這個原住民的立委的版本並案協商那是已經是已經朝野協商了"},{"start":5240.117,"end":5268.615,"text":"好 原住民族教育法108年6月19號第四條由原住民族學校定義然後第15條第二項授權要制定原住民族學校法要制定原住民族學校法108年5月當時行政院併附二讀的版本"},{"start":5270.306,"end":5290.126,"text":"行政院版也有原住民族学校的设立事项另一法律定制这是在证明什么呢行政院并没有排斥后来没有排斥所以这个部分原民会教育部要积极的推动当然原住民的立法委更要积极的推动"},{"start":5294.158,"end":5317.619,"text":"109年第十屆我們五立法委員已經第十屆開始當立委了當時109年5月18號就召開了原住民主學校法的公聽會我們現在又再次的來召開所以我們必須要去積極的去推動不是沒有開過開過了"},{"start":5321.792,"end":5347.985,"text":"連審查過了109年5月21號立法院第一次審查原住民族學校法當時這個武力法委員也都有參與111年5月26號立法院第二次審查原住民族學校法行政有沒有版本原住民立委的版本有武力法委員的版本"},{"start":5349.321,"end":5376.959,"text":"什么样能够将这些条文那个版本能够更好当然我们可以讨论好移民会的报告啊还要再怎么样写了很多不能实施的理由啊还要什么还要还要试办一直试办你们曾主委很喜欢试办为什么还要试办呢"},{"start":5379.531,"end":5405.472,"text":"好這個事實上已經事半很久了原住民族重點學校到114學年度有421所原住民族實驗教育學校到114學年度有43所原住民實驗教育與重點學校有43所"},{"start":5408.978,"end":5434.838,"text":"這麼多不是在辦了嗎 在試辦了嗎怎麼樣去統籌統合這些所以呢我的建議稍微可以安排 園民會也應該要安排把所有這些原住民族 原住民重點學校 原住民實驗教育學校原住民實驗教育重點學校的這些老師"},{"start":5437.434,"end":5462.774,"text":"參與者實際實際參與者共同來討論這個原住民族學校法嗎那不是更具體嗎好就算原住民族學校法立法通過會馬上實施嗎也要籌辦啊如果籌辦的期間認為還要再修正還是可以修正啊而不是"},{"start":5464.025,"end":5484.265,"text":"等到说试验试办早就试办了这些这么多所的学校从国小国中高中高职都有经验了国小国中高中高职都有了这个就是试办了"},{"start":5486.155,"end":5512.757,"text":"現在把它統合起來弄一個原住民族學校法我再說一次原住民族學校法通過之後不是馬上實施啊它還是要籌辦籌辦的過程如果認為還不足可以再修正所以非常謝謝吳立法召委安排今天的公聽會我們等於是在立法院已經是第三次的公聽會了"},{"start":5515.311,"end":5541.422,"text":"而我们的原住民族学校法草案有没有有啊原民会有啊原民会已经委托107年了就委托我们在场的RV教授办了十几场的公听会了在各个地区各县市都办了公听会了所以加起来"},{"start":5542.659,"end":5571.824,"text":"加上立法院開三場了這已經快20場公聽會了我們回顧我最後回顧我們這個年紀的很多人都知道民國57年當時的經濟多麼的惡劣的情況之下那時候是以反攻道路為主的年代民國57年實施什麼呢"},{"start":5573.342,"end":5600.78,"text":"九年國教如果沒有九年國教正天才不會有機會念國中而當時我們都知道也沒有老師啊老師不足啊照樣建立學校建立國中 興建國中只要大學畢業就可以當老師不管你是什麼系"},{"start":5602.83,"end":5625.717,"text":"我們去回顧這個真的現在我們的大學教授已經非常非常多了我們的老師已經非常非常多了師範學校畢業的也很多很多很多了所以特別特別的拜託"},{"start":5627.079,"end":5648.878,"text":"我們原住民的立委共同的來努力也希望延民會教育部要支持行政院應該趕快把原住民族學校法的草案送來立法案 以上謝謝好 非常感謝曾天才委員把整個嚴格說明的非常清楚那他特別提到"},{"start":5649.358,"end":5665.888,"text":"东华大学曾经在107年办过全国各地的原住民族学校法草案公听会所以接下来两位都是我们东华大学的教授好下一位我们先邀请程瞻培伦教授谢谢"},{"start":5677.274,"end":5701.727,"text":"主席各位委員各位來賓以及各機關與會代表大家早安大家好很榮幸應邀參加此次的這個公聽會就原住民族學校法立法議題向與會主公提供愚見不過這邊先稱讚一下那個立法院不過應該是內政委員會吧那個上次把我的名字寫錯掉了這次沒有寫錯了鼓勵一下立法院進步了"},{"start":5704.935,"end":5723.101,"text":"回顧原住民族運動的歷史在大家耳熟能詳的證明這次還我土地訴求之外其實當年的援運前輩早就在1987年的台灣原住民族權利宣言當中就已經提出了原住民族有權成立自己的學校而在1998年的第一個版本的原教法"},{"start":5723.541,"end":5742.072,"text":"也就那個時候就納入了這個原住民族學校條款那2019年在在場的幾位委員的這個促成之下2019年原教法大幅翻修那這個原民學校條款不但保留而且進一步規定這個學校的設立是向另一法律規定之"},{"start":5743.052,"end":5769.157,"text":"那隨後主管機關其實也就委託了專家學者我們的阿威老師進行相關的研究但是蠻可惜的是從1998年到現在看起來好像已經歷經了20多年了可是這個原民學校的條款從來沒有運作過從來沒有任何一所學校是按照這個原民學校條款設立的所以變成一個空有法律文字但是沒有實現的一個條文"},{"start":5771.937,"end":5795.302,"text":"那麼事實上在我從事多年原住民族研究以及一些政策參與甚至曾經也擔任過這個主管機關議員的經驗我必須講啦在各種原住民族政策裡面那麼相對於比較遲滯的原民自治土地政策甚至這種政策還有可能會倒退的原民教育政策其實是在各種"},{"start":5796.362,"end":5822.522,"text":"各種政策裡面其實比較比較前進的甚至在各部會當中除了原民會之外教育部其實是對原住民族相對而言比較友善最願意傾聽我們族人的心聲而且比較能夠能夠了解得了我們的明白的這個部會但是很可惜的是那為什麼在原住民族學校政策上面看起來只聞樓梯響響講了好多年但是不見人下樓呢當然我不會把這個"},{"start":5824.544,"end":5841.661,"text":"這種狀況指向單一原因當然它有可能是整個行政部門尤其是因為這個是大政策有時候不太是教育部和園民會就能夠說了算的恐怕要到行政院層級了才能夠做決定有的時候搞不好是行政院的決心不夠"},{"start":5842.882,"end":5870.533,"text":"或者是搞不好到過頭來我們的族人其實對於這個政策的了解不太夠信心也不太足夠那當然也有可能是差不多快十年前我們在談所謂的遠民學校法的時候我們在設想什麼是原住民族學校的時候呢會不會我們的想像過度理想化也可能它會造成那個政策遲滯的原因所以那個原因是多方面的也不太適合只是那個怪單一或兩個部會"},{"start":5874.195,"end":5896.494,"text":"當然今天時間有限其實我沒有辦法花很多的時間把剛才大概需要花一兩天的研討會才能夠討論的問題跟各位做分享我現在就拉回來看僅就現有的這個學校法的各草案的內容和它的周邊問題提出四點提醒或者說是建議第一"},{"start":5897.154,"end":5909.404,"text":"原住民族教育法一開始對於原住民族學校的定義偏向強調知識作為原住民族學校課程基礎的重要性當然這是正確的但卻忘了應該同時強調"},{"start":5911.668,"end":5929.975,"text":"這種學校它是兼重原民知識和主流學科知識的學習以培育新一代原住民族兼有族群文化素養又能夠面對大社會競爭及挑戰的酸蟲能力所以原來的原民學校法這個定義它很容易讓社會大眾甚至包括廣大的原民家長"},{"start":5930.935,"end":5952.854,"text":"誤以為原住民族學校只是在學習族群文化而不重視一般學科的學習這個認知落差早就在現在的原民實驗教育的推動過程當中就遇到了好幾個原民實驗學校要推動實驗教育的時候呢都要碰到家長的質疑不是說學自己的文化不好那我的小孩子的國英數自然社會怎麼辦他以後的升學怎麼辦"},{"start":5954.275,"end":5976.742,"text":"那我覺得有點可惜的是我們對於原住民族學校的定義不管是在原教法或者是各個版本的原住民族學校法的草案都沒有把這個講清楚所以很有可能就會造成甚至造成我們自己原民社會內部的誤解很有可能最後你就算成立了原住民族學校但是叫好不叫座"},{"start":5977.822,"end":5997.167,"text":"第二 我始終認為原住民族實驗教育實施的成效它會是原住民族學校是否能夠正式上路的重要指標因為我常常講原民實驗學校他就是在try原住民族學校可能長什麼樣子"},{"start":5998.627,"end":6023.035,"text":"那如果連這種過渡性的嘗試都不太成功的話我很難想像原民社會或者是家長對於那個更理想的原住民族學校制度他會有信心換言之我們現在所推動的原住民族實驗教育各個學校他遇到的挑戰不管是理念目標的設定課程設計師資培育與聘任設施設備學校與主管機關的關係部落與溝通等等"},{"start":6024.255,"end":6053.245,"text":"原民實驗學校會遇到的未來呢原住民族學校他也不可能逃過那依我這十年陪伴各原民實驗學校的經驗有好的案例但是也有失敗的經驗但是很可惜的是兩個主管機關我現在看起來好像並沒有對於推動已經快十年的原民實驗教育它的實施成效由於它的各個細部細部的這個面向到底出了什麼問題到底該如何去做解決進行比較完整的評估甚至深入的一些研究"},{"start":6054.365,"end":6081.007,"text":"那你缺乏這個研究的話呢你冒然推出原民實驗學校相同的問題相同的錯誤還是會出現那第三點透過原民學校進行文化傳承的這個期待和熱情不能夠只是浪漫化的理想而應該同時解決原民家長和學生的實際需求我講句白話意思就是什麼呢現在的大學升學的篩選的制度還是一般的學科的這些知識"},{"start":6082.324,"end":6096.871,"text":"原民學校兼重原民文化和一般學科知識的學習他們所學的東西一般大學不會看的那這個會讓所有的家長和學生產生信心危急最後做選擇的時候還是會選擇一般學校"},{"start":6099.751,"end":6119.119,"text":"所以我強烈的建議在處理這個學校法的同時同時大學端要做一些變革做什麼變革呢或許要有原民版的特殊選才那原住民學校的這個政策的制度才有可能成功要不然又是叫好不叫做我最後那個半分鐘一點點"},{"start":6120.419,"end":6136.431,"text":"那最後一點由先前的這個實驗教育的經驗可以知道其實各族和各個部落的差異性真的非常的大但是我觀察現有的四個版本的這個學校法的草案我有點擔心好像又強迫大家都穿一模一樣的衣服當然"},{"start":6137.692,"end":6156.595,"text":"當然各族和各部落的教育體制雖然有差異性可是有共同性可是我強烈建議不管是在課程、憑良師資或者是部落與族群的關係的面向剛才陳志業老師有提到我們在下條文的時候要保持一點彈性空間"},{"start":6158.196,"end":6183.096,"text":"要不然很容易以前我們很討厭害人對我們同化現在反而變成我們原住民內部在相互同化這樣不是一件好事情所以我會覺得這個現在的這個版本有點是剛性立法我覺得可能要採取至少某些制度要採取柔性立法的這樣的一個策略比較恰當那以上的這個前件供那個貴院以及主管接官參考謝謝"},{"start":6183.837,"end":6207.347,"text":"好非常謝謝陳章佩倫老師其實各位的發言我都很認真做筆記我們是真的希望說能夠找到共識謝謝那接下來呢我們要邀請的是也是東華大學曾經開過全國公聽會原住民族學校法草案的阿維摩納院長請"},{"start":6216.713,"end":6239.482,"text":"主席還有在座的幾位我們立法院的委員還有所有關心原住民族教育發展的夥伴大家早安我程序剛剛我們鄭委員所提的原住民族學校的立法本身確實很早102年就已經把它加入了不過大家也許可以去想一件事情102年到現在116年經過了14年的時間為什麼這個法案還沒有辦法完成通過"},{"start":6245.805,"end":6264.437,"text":"但是我們又可以看到其實不只是立法院行政院其實都沒有停止要推動這個立法那也許作為一個原住民我覺得我們應該問問我們自己啦就是我們到底需不需要這樣的一個學校的存在那我們需要的話需要是怎麼樣的一種學校"},{"start":6265.177,"end":6292.693,"text":"那我特別用一個概念其實我們過去在學校裡面通常會聽到一句話給學生這個魚吃不如給他釣竿但是大家去想像現在我們在大學教書已經充斥這麼多AI工具了學生可能會問我一句話有魚吃了為什麼還要釣竿那也許就是說我們到底要怎麼樣的一種學校去推動回饋到我們自己本身到底怎麼去思考這樣的一件事情"},{"start":6294.062,"end":6311.493,"text":"所以對我來說我覺得當然也有前面參與的一個經驗那我想經過這些年來的一個反覆的討論跟對話我覺得我們今天要回到原住民族學校法這樣的一個議題應該不會單純只是要設立幾所新的學校"},{"start":6312.213,"end":6327.383,"text":"那更重要的一個根本的問題啊其實是我們有沒有這樣的一個決心或要去建立一個真正是以原住民族知識語言文化以及民族價值為核心的一個教育制度畢竟長期以來我想國家"},{"start":6329.13,"end":6347.321,"text":"在對於原住民族教育政策的一個發展的一個重要成果確實已經改善了所謂的教育機會的不平等我們可以看到有更多的原住民族孩子都能夠進到各級教育體系裡面來但是我們也必須誠實的面對一個事實即使教育的參與不斷的提升"},{"start":6349.682,"end":6370.428,"text":"但是呢現在的教育制度的核心架構即便有重點學校即便有實驗教育學校但是這個架構本身啊仍然是國家主流教育的一個體系我們仍然沒有機會或者很少有機會去決定自己的教育目標教育內容跟教育治理的方式所以"},{"start":6371.388,"end":6394.147,"text":"要立這個法我覺得要回應的不是教育機會的問題我想大家應該都可以接受這樣的一個討論而是誰來治理這樣的一個教育的一個重要性也就是說不只是如何讓原住民族進到教育體系裡面來而是如何讓我們的教育體系能夠真正反映出原住民族的知識觀世界觀跟價值觀"},{"start":6395.714,"end":6412.496,"text":"因為教育從來都不會只是一個知識傳授的工具剛剛我想前面幾位的專家學者也都提醒了這件事情教育同時也是一個文化傳承語言延續歷史記憶保存跟民族認同建構的一個重要的場域"},{"start":6413.47,"end":6438.42,"text":"所以学校绝对不会只是孩子学习的一个地方而已对于原住民族来讲对于部落的孩子来说更是我们能否延续我们自己发展的一个重要的一个制度基础因为如果我们没有办法自己决定自己的教育的目标教育的内容跟教育自己的方式那么我们仍然是受到这个外部的一个制约这样的一个限制"},{"start":6439.48,"end":6460.871,"text":"所以我想提幾件事情第一個當然就是我們能不能夠讓原住民族學校成為真正我們教育自主治理的一個平台那我們自己本身能不能夠實質參與學校治理跟教育決策原住民族的知識文化實踐語言是不是能夠成為教育的核心而不是一種單純的附屬內容"},{"start":6462.972,"end":6470.606,"text":"那國家是不是願意透過法律制度跟穩定資源的支持讓這個原住民主的教育自治啊能夠真正的落實"},{"start":6472.12,"end":6500.348,"text":"畢竟原住民族學校理應要當作是一個原住民族文化延續跟公共治理能力培育的一個重要制度基礎所以它既是教育機構也是文化機構既是知識傳承的場域也是民族治理能力養成的場域我們既要培養學生適應現代社會的能力也要培養他理解自身文化承擔民族責任跟參與公共事務的一個能力"},{"start":6501.721,"end":6516.729,"text":"那我覺得再回應到幾件事情其實很多人都在討論原住民族學校到底它的必要性是什麼甚至去質疑它原住民族已經享有這麼多不同的教育福利的措施了增加一個原住民族學校的必要性在哪裡"},{"start":6517.429,"end":6545.811,"text":"那我想一個很重要的觀念是原住民族學校不是我們已經存在的特殊優惠措施就是要回應這個原住民族的一個教育自主治理的一個重要制度性的一個基礎原住民族學校跟實驗教育有什麼不同的地方實驗教育它是一種教育方法的選擇原住民族學校它是一個原住民族教育權利的一個實踐那更重要的是我覺得在"},{"start":6547.694,"end":6576.463,"text":"既有的這些草案版本裡面都有提醒了幾件事情特別是在校務的治理我覺得一個很重要校務治理的一個核心當然就是校長校長絕對不會只是一個行政的主管就像我們現場的這個馬紹他就不單純只是一個行政的主管他更是那個學校的一個文化的領導者所以校長資格除了有教育專業以外也應該具備有民族文化的能力部落合作的能力族裔的能力民族教育的理念"},{"start":6577.503,"end":6600.332,"text":"那剛剛也提到這個主語應該成為這個主要的教學語言我想大家也都同意這樣的一個價值但是我們也必須認清主語對我們現階段不同世代的原住民族成員來講都是一個挑戰所以原住民族學校的主語能力應該要四階段四職務的需求提供一個分級的一個要求"},{"start":6601.152,"end":6615.589,"text":"例如說如果是一個文化教師、俗語教師、校長應該要具有高級、較高的一個語言的能力但是如果是一般學科的教師則可以逐步的來去提升、來去補足"},{"start":6616.877,"end":6635.595,"text":"那在整個中央跟地方全職分工上我覺得初期來講中央當然要非常負責任的去規劃制度保障經費做好師資培育那地方要能夠跟部落合作去推動學校的設立跟在地課程的一個發展"},{"start":6637.202,"end":6653.745,"text":"畢竟原住民族教育絕對不是一個單純的教育政策而已它更涉及到的是一個文化的政策、語言的政策、青年的政策、社會福利的政策跟地方創生的政策最後我想跟大家分享一個想法"},{"start":6654.326,"end":6677.162,"text":"原住民族学校法的目的绝对不是让教育单纯的让教育走进部落而是让部落成为是教育的本体跟教育的主体而不是单纯的让原住民族的孩子能够有机会接受更多不同类型的教育而是让原住民族透过这个教育自主的治理能够延续未来那以上的分享谢谢大家"},{"start":6677.722,"end":6700.677,"text":"好 非常感謝阿維摩納院長他鑽研這個原住民族學校法也非常多年了謝謝您所提供的寶貴意見那接續呢我們要邀請兩位立法委員那他們也都有在這個屆期也都有版本那首先我們先邀請高津素梅吉瓦斯阿里委員"},{"start":6708.374,"end":6726.87,"text":"謝謝吳立華召委民眾民眾學校法的公聽會呢終於又在教育文化委員會來排了那麼我期待呢今天結束之後能夠往前邁進一大步其實呢在場的專家學者們大家都很熟悉因為為什麼呢"},{"start":6728.103,"end":6738.413,"text":"原住民學校法其實在109年就是上一屆我做招委的時候我們開過了非常多的公聽會甚至於還在委員會裡面排了"},{"start":6739.56,"end":6761.898,"text":"所以我在想了這個議題其實大家不陌生尤其剛剛安慰這個動畫大學的教授在那邊的一番發言我覺得這一條路走起來他的心情應該跟我們都是一樣的我在109年的時候我們提案審查排了質詢 排了公聽會當時園民會你們拍胸脯"},{"start":6766.101,"end":6785.97,"text":"跟我承諾你們說你們已經跟行政院充分溝通了而且會盡快把院版送到立法院來可是大家看一下一直到現在這一屆已經115年了我們的院版始終沒有出現過我覺得非常的可惜當然"},{"start":6786.75,"end":6805.731,"text":"有沒有願板能不能夠審查呢當然可以啊只要我們教育委員會的招委門可以排我想應該都可以大家還記得嗎原住民教育法其實也沒有願板的情況之下呢我做招委也讓他在立法院三讀通過啦大修了一遍啊"},{"start":6807.199,"end":6834.878,"text":"大家還看到 我們再回想起來原住民族的學校它是在什麼樣的一個契機出現的在潘文忠前部長我們修了103年頒布的實驗三法當時的潘前部長告訴我說前委員委屈一下我們從實驗三法裡面來找出一條小縫找到原住民的民族學校"},{"start":6837.06,"end":6857.207,"text":"當時也就是現在的朝委吳立華委員還在做校長我們到屏東去勘察了非常多我們討論了非常多終於有了一個小縫隙讓原住民族的學校可以在那個時候慢慢地伸出來到現在從國小到高職"},{"start":6859.397,"end":6883.008,"text":"而且現在有非常多的校長由下而上已經形成了非常多的希望跟共識我們也看到民主學校的孩子們也在這樣充分有尊嚴的狀況之下他的學習能力是往前邁出了一大步這些都在學這一段時間學生的表現都看得到的然後再來看105年8月1號"},{"start":6885.629,"end":6899.117,"text":"全台第一間的民族實驗學校就是由台中市和平區的博馬小學誕生了大家都很熟悉一直到108年原住民實驗學校百花齊放"},{"start":6900.049,"end":6928.386,"text":"各個族群幾乎都有一間以上的實驗學校讓我們的孩子在學科的專業還有母語的文化學習並且維持了孩子們的競爭力當我們看到百花齊放的民主學校我們感到非常的驕傲啊但是同時我們沒有停止過我們跟家長跟老師們跟校長們還有教育部 園民會我們又思考了怎麼樣把所謂的實驗走向實踐"},{"start":6930.953,"end":6935.993,"text":"於是在大家集思廣益之下 我們完成了原住民族學校法的草案"},{"start":6938.069,"end":6963.606,"text":"在場的大家都很熟悉我們非常的期待能夠建構原住民族的教育體系還有體制即使原住民族學校法還沒有通過我們仍然不放棄喔我們從哪裡我們要從建立原住民族教育體系和體制之前我們知道一定要有課程綱要還有學習評量開始走因此呢 園民會在112年的1月6號"},{"start":6967.199,"end":6975.513,"text":"也在我的努力之下泰雅族的幾位校長的團結努力之下還有我們的國教院"},{"start":6976.813,"end":6994.69,"text":"還有我們的棋老們老師們放棄了自己的時間甚至於自己掏腰包我們開始了製作由下而上超前部署的完成了一個工程這叫什麼工程泰雅族民族教育課程綱要發展計畫而這個計畫也在園民會"},{"start":6999.034,"end":7021.428,"text":"還有國家院的支持之下 112年1月6號通過了終於我們的政府正式的加入了不僅僅是國家院加入了 人民會投資了四年的經費泰雅族民族教育課程剛要發展計畫這四年也就是112年到115年我們共同完成了"},{"start":7022.694,"end":7037.378,"text":"我們看一下專業的泰雅族課綱和學型評量我們就在禮拜一的時候泰雅課程發表的研討會我們校長們有一段話我想讓在場的大家聽一下"},{"start":7045.08,"end":7073.579,"text":"沒有誰大誰小也沒有誰比較重要誰比較重要好那然後在108課綱呢他的法律規則要一樣好然後呢呃他是呃為了將來民主學校主要民主學校要強制適用比方說有泰雅民主學校他就一定要用泰雅課綱但是如果不是呃泰雅民主學校一般的學校或重點學校我就可以用我剛才講的就是呃可以用呃108課綱為主然後可以互分的課程用特定民主課綱如果那個區域比方說竹東鎮是泰雅族的孩子比較多好那就他可以用"},{"start":7074.199,"end":7093.986,"text":"優先來用派凱普課綱來做他部分課程的授課但是很重要的是一開始我們講了要法治化之前要有系統化所以這個系統化的課程課綱就是我們現在已經在做好那再來就是教育自覺制度化這個制度化就是剛好講的就是你叫神醫會要中央有中央的原民主教育神醫委員會"},{"start":7097.519,"end":7125.052,"text":"我為什麼會這樣子因為就我的理解現在就是公共門不是不做原住民族學校而是可能礙於經費礙於人力有可能要做一些示範性的民族學校我這頭先走了但是我們的終極目標是普及化所以我們希望不是只有所謂國立的泰雅民族學校或者國立的原住民族學校如果今天我們在台中設一個國立的泰雅民族學校堅持著孩子不可能跑去台中唸為什麼臨時原住地泰國除非他已經是高中或大學"},{"start":7125.572,"end":7135.068,"text":"国小跟国中不可能就在那边练所以说我们很希望西竹县会有很多的太阳民族学校或者也会有所谓的善下民族学校所以我们希望有各级会有"},{"start":7140.723,"end":7166.69,"text":"要不要做民主學校這件事最後就是極化這件事情不是只有民主學校是要全面來覆蓋終結就是我們已經習慣每週一節處理這樣的一個施捨就是原住民主教育法有做就是有告訴我們說政府應來積極來幫忙或是積極來協助原住民用自己的語言自己的文化來教可是已經快30年一節就一直都沒有改變我認為是施捨式的原住民教育政策"},{"start":7167.43,"end":7195.191,"text":"必須要改變那不是只有民主學校而是在一般的學校或在重點學校不能只有畢傑族那上什麼課誰來上誰決定來上我覺得要法治化然後師伯也要趕快做那當然課綱也要趕快做那我的建議民主學校當然是百分之百用民主課綱那如果是重點學校其實就是把原來校定學校定課程稍微把它做做調整然後就用民主課綱裡面的課程模組來給"},{"start":7202.193,"end":7223.217,"text":"我想大家都很熟悉他是我們新竹泰雅族的馬克思校長非常熱心他也即將要退休了我感到非常的遺憾就是最近有非常多有熱忱的校長們相繼想要退休因為他看不到未來的希望我覺得這是很遺憾的今天有教育部的次長張亮萬金也是我們以前的同事"},{"start":7223.897,"end":7244.715,"text":"也是成立台中彭沃曼小學的大力催生者我相信你非常清楚知道原住民族想要什麼樣的民族學校而國家教育研究院今天也在 園民會也在我覺得今天至少好刺激所以呢 既然我們有了課綱 課程 教材 教案 評量為什麼我們不能夠制定原住民學校法呢"},{"start":7245.396,"end":7267.222,"text":"更何況賴清德總統他在競選的政見裡面說到他說要建立雙軌制的原住民族教育體系雙軌制的原住民族教育體系的法源依據不就是原住民族學校法嗎所以我想行政院和人民會你們是責無旁貸的我請你們一定要加速辦理我相信"},{"start":7269.379,"end":7297.444,"text":"吳麗華召委也會一起努力的因為她來自教育界我相信這也是她當時在當校長的時候所期待也期望看到的我也希望召委能夠說服所有的委員還有公部門來支持我更要請教育部還有園民會請你們重視 積極的推進要不然我們開再多的公聽會都沒有用因為非常多有熱情的校長們 棋老們"},{"start":7298.945,"end":7312.242,"text":"時間沒有辦法等待他們我希望這盆火不要澆熄否則的話我們就看不到了我們的未來 謝謝好 非常感謝高清素梅委員把這個"},{"start":7314.306,"end":7330.492,"text":"心路歷程很清楚的交代那我們也會繼續努力那接續下來呢雖然是新這一期的委員但是他對教育文化也琢磨很多我們邀請林倩琦委員"},{"start":7339.79,"end":7369.35,"text":"好,謝謝我們的主席吳釗偉、訪問同仁那也很感謝各界關心原住民族教育發展的夥伴們一起來參與這個公聽會那麼今天呢我們來探討這個原住民族學校法那透過這個公聽會的方式主要是來針對以原住民為主體的原住民族教育的這個發展那麼首先呢本席先在這邊先提出一個最根本的問題也就是當我們在談原住民族教育的時候"},{"start":7370.09,"end":7395.466,"text":"我們究竟是在談教原住民還是在談屬於原住民族自己的教育那麼這雖然看起來很相近甚至我們現在在推動的許多所謂原住民的教育都似乎有著這樣一個模糊的界線那其實剛才我這邊所談的兩者有很大的一個差異那麼依據原住民族教育法"},{"start":7396.286,"end":7419.148,"text":"我們目前原住民族教育的型態包含了原住民族教育課程原住民重點學校那麼原住民的教育班以及原住民族的學校然而真正能夠以原住民族知識體系為主體來依照民族教育的哲學跟教育目標來實施教育的只有原住民族學校"},{"start":7419.989,"end":7447.088,"text":"那么原住民族教育法已经把原住民族学校列为法定教育形态之一只是很遗憾的是呢因为缺乏了原住民族学校法来赋予独立的一个学制那么台湾到现在才出现一些所谓事办的案例那刚才我们也听到高金委员这边在过去大家一起推动的这个原住民族的这个实验相关的这个学校跟课程"},{"start":7447.828,"end":7469.895,"text":"那麼許多關心原住民族教育的教育工作者那過去大家都透過實驗教育的方式來另闢蹊徑希望能夠將族群文化還有傳統的知識跟族語的教育來帶入校園然而實驗教育終究是實驗教育它沒有辦法取代一個完整而穩定的民族教育制度"},{"start":7470.675,"end":7489.173,"text":"因此本席在這邊提出原住民族學校法的這個草案最主要是希望能夠真正落實憲法增修條文的第十條來保障原住民族教育權的一個精神聯合國原住民族權利宣言第十四條所揭示的原住民族"},{"start":7489.713,"end":7495.477,"text":"有建立並掌管符合自身文化跟語言之體系教育的基本權利"},{"start":7520.474,"end":7539.473,"text":"教育部擁有全國的教育行政經驗以及課程設計的實體原民會也最了解各族群發展的需求原住民族學校既是教育事務也是民族事務因此需要兼顧教育專業跟民族自主的兩項價值"},{"start":7541.927,"end":7562.589,"text":"縱使是雙軌的合作模式我們也需要這樣一個獨立的法源依據才能夠真正建立符合原住民族需求的教育體系另外呢本席在這邊也想說明校長將跟教育規定的一些看法那我們對於族群教育跟語言還有文化理解是我們在"},{"start":7563.45,"end":7592.383,"text":"民族教育裡面很重要的核心那麼族語不只是一個溝通的工具更是一個民族知識體系的載體但是透過族語來了解文化的本體也是重要的所以如果沒有這樣一個獨立的體系我們無法在以語言為基礎的課程內容當中來進行文化的傳承更遑論現代技術跟科技的一個掌握這個是推進原住民族在"},{"start":7593.513,"end":7613.241,"text":"全世界能夠記錄現代當代歷史的很重要的一個區塊所以呢如果我們沒有辦法透過內容的設計來探討知識的傳承跟價值的辯證那麼族語或許只能成為一直被保留的文字符號沒有辦法成為活生生的文化跟教育的語言"},{"start":7614.642,"end":7629.789,"text":"所以我們如果要能夠透過族語來進行教學甚至詩辯可能在這個教材的這個部分跟原住民主體的一個教育的基礎是很重要的我們從國際間很重要的成功的案例都告訴我們"},{"start":7630.549,"end":7656.397,"text":"那麼不只是語言附贈透過語言的內容來推動文化的本體跟現代技術的掌握沉浸式教育是很重要的那麼從各國原住民族的這個教育來講那加拿大紐西蘭的原住民族學校那在這個沉浸式的主語教育對於讓語言重新回到生活與學校的場域當中是非常有效的"},{"start":7657.077,"end":7676.746,"text":"所以那麼以單一語言作為教學的這個語言那不是只有一個附設的這個角色在我們原住民族教育法裡面的一個核心價值是重要的所以我本席在這邊強調原住民族教育法的這個目的不是只是要與現行教育體系"},{"start":7678.187,"end":7694.606,"text":"雙軌並行而是要補足現行制度長期缺的一塊拼圖我們也不是要閉門造軍那對於現行現代社會技術跟科技的掌握置身其外我們是要在原住民族學校來建構以原住民為主體在文化"},{"start":7695.487,"end":7717.497,"text":"的一個平台上不再只成為社會展示的一個觀看對象所以我們希望建立的不是只有一所學校而是一套真正屬於原住民族自己的教育體系不是只有文化保存而是文化發展不是只有語言教育更是知識體系的延續而且不是只有當代的展示而是掌握當代"},{"start":7718.598,"end":7736.84,"text":"有的技術跟科技所以教育是我們原住民延續很重要的一個工程如果我們希望下一代的原住民的孩子不是只有認識自己的文化而是能夠用我們的語言文化體系來理解世界用現代的科技跟技術"},{"start":7738.101,"end":7752.506,"text":"被未來的當代所記錄那麼原住民族學校的立法是很不可或缺的一塊那請大家能夠支持這個立法的實質推動我們也希望我們能夠看到實質立法的一個結果謝謝"},{"start":7753.806,"end":7770.939,"text":"好 非常感謝林建啟委員這次他也有提出版本那接續下來其實今天的安排其實是依照各位來的先後順序但是我覺得排得非常好因為前面有立法委員也有專家學者"},{"start":7771.579,"end":7791.372,"text":"就整个法治的过程做了一个很好的一个铺陈那接续下来的这几位都是在现场实作的第一线所以我们先邀请到的是继续前进原住民教育文化产业协会的陈慧勋执行长"},{"start":7804.443,"end":7832.443,"text":"主席各位委員行政機關代表還有在場的學者專家先進大家好我是Keep Going繼續前進教育團隊執行長陳惠勳布農族Valise Isma Hassan那我覺得今天我們齊聚在這裡其實我們雖然討論的是原住民學校未來的一個執行跟制定的經濟但是我覺得這不僅是一部教育法律的一個審議我覺得更是台灣翻轉"},{"start":7833.504,"end":7853.232,"text":"主流教育的重要视角那我觉得至于身为一个民团以及青年代表那我今天不谈的是抽象的法律条文那我来跟各位分享的是一个对于未来青年的一个真实的一个基层焦虑以及我们对于未来的一个想象"},{"start":7853.932,"end":7868.923,"text":"那過去主流社會其實常常有一種偏見認為學了文化就會犧牲競爭力或者是民族教育只是一個在體制邊緣裡面的一個祭奠活動嗎我覺得這個question mark也是我們今天在這邊討論的一個重點就是"},{"start":7871.545,"end":7885.421,"text":"如何翻轉這個論述原住民族的在地知識生態智慧以及跨國的南島連結其實正是全球化時代台灣最獨特最無法被取代的國際競爭力所以我"},{"start":7886.462,"end":7901.574,"text":"以下會針對三點論述來提出未來如何讓這樣的一個願景更有實質的一個落地我會以青年競爭力及國家文化發展的部分來去做一個未來這個制度的一個修正的小建議"},{"start":7902.875,"end":7927.26,"text":"首先就是我針對提綱三有國家的課程跟民族課程的銜接與升學制度的平衡我覺得這是一個很重要的概念因為其實許多未來會不會有可能一些原住民家長不敢送孩子到民族學校最大的擔憂可能是擔心會不會在主流的學科考試中被淘汰我覺得我們這部法律要告訴就是"},{"start":7928.16,"end":7951.253,"text":"整個整體社會是文化不是學習的負擔是理解世界的視角當我們在部落學習編織的時候其實我們正在學習的就是幾何學跟空間學當我們跟齊老進入山林走向山林智慧的時候我們正在學習的是全球的永續生態以及微型氣候的管理所以首先第一點就是"},{"start":7952.553,"end":7979.762,"text":"針對未來制度的一個精進援助民主學校的課程設計中央主管機關因會同圓明會打破一般學科與民主學科的二分法應該補助就是研發民主知識體系如何活化融入在數理科技社會以及國家課綱的教材這是第一個那再來第二個在制度化特別是特殊選材的部分應該補助就是研發"},{"start":7983.896,"end":8001.115,"text":"必須在升學配合中教育部未來是不是能夠協同高等教育針對原住民族學校的畢業生能不能建立一個民族知識技能的多元彈性評量把它放進特殊選材的管道不再用單一的學測統測的"},{"start":8002.597,"end":8020.591,"text":"分數來框住我們的人才重點是要讓我們能夠具備身後的一個文化根底讓文化資產如何流暢的銜接高等教育成為國家外交永續的一個特殊的一個戰略人才所以我覺得未來特殊選才這個部分要特別注意那再來第二個是針對"},{"start":8021.912,"end":8046.473,"text":"一綱二的部分關注的是學校主體的治理性以及財政實質的保障我這邊建議就是說過去的教育體制往往是例如說大人在為青年決定我們是誰那如果原住民學校未來的董事會 校務會議依然是所謂缺乏文化敏感度的一些官僚把持的話我覺得其實這樣"},{"start":8048.194,"end":8063.724,"text":"往往我們會取在一個施捨型的一個申請因為雖然教育沒有辦法長久所以建議未來就是像剛有一個學者有提到就是創設具備自籌以及補償機制的原住民學校發展基金"},{"start":8064.244,"end":8086.892,"text":"那這個是不是能夠針對未來進行文化或生態的補償機制凡在原住民族傳統領域進行觀光、綠能開發、國家公園收益的資源開發是不是能提撥固定比例的回饋金直接挹注在未來原住民族學校的發展基金用制度化的地租與補償"},{"start":8088.312,"end":8116.831,"text":"給予文化教育最獨立以及最永續的財政底氣那最後一個建議呢就是我們剛都有很多學者提到說師資的部分那我們如何打破一個僵化的一個失陪體制創造文化人才的一個職業生態所以聚焦在提綱四喔我常常覺得沒有好的師資在完美的法律都是紙上談兵那目前我們第一線其實最頭痛的遇到的都是"},{"start":8118.573,"end":8139.993,"text":"懂得傳統列強智慧編織文化語言的齊老與青年因為沒有主流的碩博士的學位證照只能領取微博的終點費或是有教師證的老師卻往往不懂在地的文化如果連老師都留不住那青年投入文化教育也會害怕的"},{"start":8140.213,"end":8157.012,"text":"他們也會怕會餓肚子這就是現在國家很現實的一個教育經濟斷層的一個很大的一個重點所以未來針對這個制度的一個經濟提供兩項建議是不是能夠破格增設文化引路人所謂的傳統知識導師的專職職缺"},{"start":8160.996,"end":8179.781,"text":"必須打破教育人員的任用條例的僵化只要通過部落或地方委員會或民間團體認證的傳統知識實踐者原住民學校得以批認作為原住民文化教育師資其薪資福利、法律保障跟進敘制度其實是比照一般合格專任師資的"},{"start":8181.141,"end":8201.166,"text":"那再來第二個建議就是在地與分族族是族群的族的培育質押循環機制由國家補助支持原民學校畢業的青年進入高等教育後那透過公費或專案的支持這些青年繼續返回原民學校透過實習"},{"start":8202.546,"end":8226.093,"text":"或正式的教職這不僅解決了分組失之不止的問題更能夠創造一條用文化專長留香發展安身立命的生態圈那最後的30秒我做一個總結其實各位委員以及先進我們今天在這邊談的其實不是一個特權而是一個小小池道的一個公益人家說常常好事多磨"},{"start":8226.753,"end":8247.827,"text":"那我們希望未來原住民族學校不再只是主流教育下的補救學校弱勢照顧而是台灣多元文化向世界輸出的南島永續戰略基地讓我們用更多的制度保障青年未來投入文化失陪的一個競爭力讓文化真正可以成為青年安身立命的專業"},{"start":8249.408,"end":8261.315,"text":"臺灣多元的文化真正走向自主的繁榮我的時間已經到了也很謝謝這次召委給我這樣的機會可以跟與會的在場先進做一個小小的建議跟分享謝謝"},{"start":8267.299,"end":8295.139,"text":"就是讓各個族群擁有這個實踐教育權利不是特權謝謝那在這裡我們要繼續邀請一位他這幾年非常非常的有名是在於他擔任導師但是他們班上的這些阿美族的孩子他是排灣族的老師但是他們班上這些阿美族的孩子在高中階段竟然"},{"start":8295.859,"end":8319.106,"text":"能夠用流利的阿美族語來做一個教學或者是生活上的語言這個令我們非常非常的驚豔邀請潘育文老師大家好我就講幾個我的想法關於這個民族學校立法幾個建議第一個我是覺得他沒有動"},{"start":8336.624,"end":8344.838,"text":"那我幫你按下一頁好不好嗯好按下一頁"},{"start":8347.247,"end":8365.839,"text":"第一個是民族學校有開放性下一個我為什麼會講說民族學校有開放性就是說民族學校不是重點不是在服務民族他是在服務滿足不同需求的學生所以第一個是說我們是以民族為設計的原則可是我們不要把民族文化談得太細因為這樣子會在細節上談太久會變紙上談兵"},{"start":8370.942,"end":8390.943,"text":"那你也會讓適合讀這項學校性質的學生就喪失他的機會然後也是因為這樣子所以我在談的就是說這是一個殊途同歸我們是用文化作為主題然後學習然後進入到大學專業科系所以民族化背後它是有它的普世價值的"},{"start":8391.263,"end":8412.134,"text":"我們是用不同的路徑進入到大學體制所以我舉個例子就是說我們這幾年有8個同學報特殊選才有7個他也是用一般的方式進到大學啊可是他的學歷成績目前看起來就大概是中間或中前他並沒有落後啊所以我覺得一開始我們先假設那一般的學歷標準是有問題的"},{"start":8413.234,"end":8437.891,"text":"那再來是說因為它是普世的所以這也才能符合我們原本全民原教的概念嘛就說原住民要了解漢人漢人要了解原住民所以我覺得這個一開始在法律的設計可能這邊就要注意一下那不然在座我看到很多那個先進老師那都是漢人啊沒有這些漢人老師我看我們應該都垮了對不對所以我覺得反而是要訓練出更多有這樣子對文化有敏感的"},{"start":8439.013,"end":8466.976,"text":"人來當老師比較重要下一頁比方我舉個例子我們現在已經有漢人考過阿美語了嘛那那請問他可不可以納入原名版的特殊選材這是個很大的問題啊他可能已經比原住民更了解原住民文化那他可不可以進入這個原名版特殊選材這是第一個 下一頁這是我這幾天跟同學來討論的其實也是在呼應剛剛幾個老師在說的下一頁"},{"start":8467.918,"end":8495.429,"text":"那這是學生寫的雖然我是有去調整過可是你會發現我們是從傳統建築去談未來的事情下一頁那這個是影片所以都不能看就是可以在下一頁這些都是說同學是自己自主的學習然後自己去用文化的方式來實踐並作為一種專題然後結合學科來做成他的專題研究下一頁"},{"start":8497.085,"end":8518.642,"text":"所以我也不覺得一定要什麼原住民的課綱反正說如果教育部的課綱已經很好用了我們為什麼要有一個什麼原住民的課綱然後它的差別是非常非常的細緻就太細了那這個課綱我覺得你如果把它寫成是阿美族人的自主行動或泰雅族人的自主行動看起來都可以通啊"},{"start":8519.443,"end":8532.481,"text":"對不對,那為什麼我們要在另闢戰場那我覺得成本太高了那個成本可能是說海岸阿美族跟這個南式阿美族要不要有不同的課綱"},{"start":8534.127,"end":8559.76,"text":"你會馬上陷入到這個泥沼等於說你用民族主義的觀念去看的話同一有限分化無限就完蛋了好下一個好所以幾個立法具體的建議說第一個是要開放部分比例的非原民私生那第二個是說這剛剛強調的是如果這課綱是符合的那我們就教材重點是教材嘛他就是一綱多本的概念嘛就那這個綱要是可以的那反正"},{"start":8560.76,"end":8574.727,"text":"看到這個根據這個部落適地適眾對這個部落有怎樣的教材他有怎樣的能量那就根據這個去設計就可以了好下一頁第二個是這個獅子培育中心的定位我認為"},{"start":8576.397,"end":8603.616,"text":"也可以不用設計為什麼一樣就是現在沒有什麼時間像我跟幾個老師討論我們認為在這五年內如果沒有做起來大概就沒有了換言之如果失陪中心可以增開一個科叫跨域科然後我們讓這些失陪的學生是回到學校原命的學校直接實習這樣比較快一點所以這有點像是以前在打一次大戰二次大戰你根本找不到醫生找不到護士怎麼辦"},{"start":8604.946,"end":8610.597,"text":"你就去醫學院裡面先挖人過去了這樣子可能會是比較簡便的方法下一頁"},{"start":8611.52,"end":8634.454,"text":"所以我認為是要建立這個跨域科別這個其實我在前陣子的政教會其實已經有跟各位先進提過了就是說應該是用大學的專業來培育原住民的跨域老師因為原住民的主題都是跨域性質的那現在政府或說整個國際都非常重視跨域所以其實原住民是最有跨域條件的教育"},{"start":8635.626,"end":8643.785,"text":"這是我們的優勢這是我們可以去強化或甚至是翻轉台灣教育困境的一個關鍵好下一頁"},{"start":8645.375,"end":8667.942,"text":"那再是說這是我認為是用七年一貫這個七年一貫是指說他三年如果已經在原民學校他大學四年就是在一般的科系可是我們就用師專的概念去保障他嘛就像剛剛鄭天才委員提到的以前沒有老師還不是先都急救張我認為現在就是寫得先急救張比較可以好下一頁"},{"start":8670.473,"end":8696.138,"text":"再來就是說所以你怎麼講就是我看到這個法條裡面就是會把這個足以認證的標準設得很高我認為應該要設很高可是可能要注意一下要有一點彈性不然我舉個例子像達摩納公學院的創辦人是漢人啊王乾隆主任也是漢人啊我是排灣組的我帶阿美組啊我們都沒有高級認證啊可是我們可以訓練出很多高級認證的那你要不要我們嗎"},{"start":8697.438,"end":8725.97,"text":"要你要為我們開設一些彈性好下一頁好再一次說獅子培育的重要性是實作而且要具專業性所以他一定要到大學學專業的東西這樣子的我們的文化才能精進跟進步你蓋傳統物你不能忽視建築學或景觀學的專業資能你蓋你學習農林文化你不能忽視現在林業跟農業我國的困境還有他的要怎麼與時俱進好下一頁"},{"start":8727.471,"end":8738.359,"text":"其實我之前有講過啦 立委可能有看過我認為我們已經找到原住民的主體教育的主軸就是建築生態農業 以這為基礎然後發展出相關的領域"},{"start":8744.584,"end":8772.186,"text":"這是我以前寫的我認為就說國高中基礎學科是原生建築生態農業文化然後他到大學進行專業的訓練只有語言需要集中然後之後他就可以回流到原本的學校這樣子的實質學習基地才能被建構好下一頁好再下一頁我一直想下一頁被花很多時間好立法要快啊真的就是這個法要保護那個我們這些投入的老師我怎麼會這樣說呢好下一頁"},{"start":8774.432,"end":8787.76,"text":"因為我們在學校做這種事情會一直被學校阻撓比方說我們教務處可能不願意聘主語老師比方說學務處不讓我們原民的學生在原住民教育資源中心上主語課"},{"start":8789.844,"end":8812.631,"text":"可是因為有法的保護我們可以跟他硬碰硬那還有一個運氣比較好說我們校長是支持的那如果我們校長不支持怎麼辦那這有問題啊那像我最近要做那個國中的課程那聽說在課發會也被杯葛啊我也是氣得要死啊我要發展我要多開設幾堂阿美族的課我為什麼要國人領域同意"},{"start":8813.988,"end":8836.058,"text":"我真的不懂啊為什麼我為什麼要被這些領域掐住脖子然後你說的我就必須買單所以我本來設計一個比較理想的計畫被他們一直修修修修到後面已經似不像然後似不像之後他還是不高興那怎麼辦所以我認為要透過法來保護這樣子我們比較比較有著力點好下一頁"},{"start":8836.857,"end":8861.197,"text":"好結論就是第一個呢我覺得這學校有開放性原住民學校是大家的嘛所以不同的教育系統大家都可以讀第二個就是要跨域科直接請師培中心偵測跨域科他的實習跟他實作回到他原本指定的基地裡面語言能力出眾不代表是好的教育家所以這個也要保有一點彈性但是說國內有哪些學校做然後做到什麼程度做的還不錯其實大家都知道"},{"start":8861.917,"end":8874.652,"text":"那就快點整合想辦法先讓他變成一條龍變成一個雛形先做再說所以立法要快法要修得更快不然那個這樣才能保護真正在做教的教師還有教學單位謝謝"},{"start":8876.636,"end":8904.484,"text":"非常謝謝因為潘玉文老師他真的是實踐者而且都看到他能夠帶出具備文化跟語言能力的學生出來那他到底是怎麼做到的很謝謝他剛才的分享我想這些是非常寶貴的意見謝謝那接下來這位也是做很久也是很厲害也是培育出會講俗語的孩子我們來邀請東華大學"},{"start":8906.525,"end":8908.066,"text":"中文官老師請原住民的學校"},{"start":8929.044,"end":8951.662,"text":"我很久沒有看到中文關這三個字了其實那個政策頒布之後我很早就已經當列祖民了謝謝又再讓我看到中文關這三個字但是這個也是我們的工作我們要如何把中文關這三個字拿掉然後再把我們的習佛禮告放進去我想這個就是我想像的原住民學校法"},{"start":8952.563,"end":8975.491,"text":"那我们到底要需要什么样的原住民学校去年我有一个机会到智利的复活节岛那个地方是非常不容易到得了的地方那它也被称为是我们南岛与西分布的最东边那在这个地方有几个长辈叫Lapanui的那个父亲的长辈在这个地方成立了一间沉浸式的幼儿园"},{"start":8976.411,"end":9003.639,"text":"在沒有政策的支持底下他們努力做到這件事情是因為紐西蘭的沉浸式的幼兒園啟發了他們做這件事情那我去年去的時候呢這個幼兒園已經有40名幼兒用全Lapanui的方式在上課可是比較可惜的地方是他們並沒有像紐西蘭跟校尉一樣進入法治化的階段能夠保障原住民教育的自主跟自覺的權利但是"},{"start":9004.119,"end":9027.009,"text":"一直走到現在喇叭諾言還是透過民間的力量和家長的力量讓這個全城境的幼兒園能夠發展下去它實際上跟我們在東海岸的達姆拉阿美族與共學園實際上是一個翻版一模一樣達姆拉共學園現在也還在很努力的透過民間組織透過家長的方式去讓這個教育能夠發展下去所以"},{"start":9027.97,"end":9040.391,"text":"這種以原住民語言作為教學語言的沉浸式教育本身正在糾正也在改變過去童話教育一直持續發展至今用大全語言作為教學語言的錯誤的做法"},{"start":9041.926,"end":9064.632,"text":"也就是說在現在的教育系統裡面我們實際上沒有辦法去避免我們的族語跟文化持續的流失跟斷裂另外一部分是我們的家長也沒得選擇沒得選擇一個可以以族語為教學語言的實踐的場域提到這幾個學校實際上最關鍵的因素就是原住民的教育的自主權"},{"start":9066.033,"end":9074.588,"text":"自覺權甚至是原住民的教育的主權來透過這種自主自覺來滿足原住民對教育的期待所以"},{"start":9076.089,"end":9099.343,"text":"我认为今天的原住民学校法的立法或是公听会的举办本身就有具备这种时代的意义要去解决这些错误过去以来从殖民发展至今的这些错误的问题我们也应当要去承担这种时代的责任所以从刚才提到2020年的第一次公听会之后"},{"start":9100.183,"end":9125.551,"text":"今天終於判到了第二次的公聽會到底我們還要再期待下一次的公聽會什麼時候會再發生但是我衷心期盼我們可以繼續走下去因為達摩拉共學園如果在2020年的話他的幼兒園的學生現在已經上國中了如果當時有這個法可以去支持達摩拉共學園的話那我們會增加更多流利使用這個語言的有自信的下一代"},{"start":9127.091,"end":9141.316,"text":"所以過去我們總認為說我們在制定原住民學校法的時候都只能嘗試透過美加紐澳的這些經驗但我今天可以告訴大家說黨不讓阿美族一共學院其實已經是一個不折不扣的原住民學校"},{"start":9142.176,"end":9166.236,"text":"因為它是以阿美族語作為教學語言的一個學校那它這個學校呢跟其他的我們剛才提到的美加紐奧的這些原住民學校實際上是一模一樣的實施的是一種沉浸式教育的學校所以如今我們要開始認真的去思考一件事情我們要如何透過立法的方式來支持像達摩納共學院這樣的一個學校能夠持續發展下去"},{"start":9167.157,"end":9182.396,"text":"其实我们已经有例子了我们不是一直要去谈纽西兰怎么样效益怎么样达摩拉在东海岸已经接近十年做出这样的一个努力所以我认为原住民学校"},{"start":9183.297,"end":9201.497,"text":"的根本的任務其實就是一間以維護原住民語言文化跟知識為目的的各級學校我們提到633但是我覺得更要強調的事情是要必須要從學前開始搞不好現在的做法其實就是從學前往上到國中到高中"},{"start":9202.378,"end":9219.829,"text":"所以它是一個維護原住民語言文化跟知識為目的的學校那其實是在教授一般領域的課程也是以原住民的語言跟文化為中心來提供原住民語言文化沉浸式的學習的教育的環境來提升學生對原住民語言跟文化正確的"},{"start":9221.73,"end":9249.607,"text":"認識不只是認識而已還有理解還有應用所以他跟原住民學校跟其他的一般學校最大的差異之處就是他能夠彰顯原住民的語言跟文化在學前教育直到高中的這種主體性所以對我來說我衷心期盼建議我們的第一章的總則總則的條文的內容應該要直接定義原住民學校應該指的是這種實施原住民語言曾經是教育的學校"},{"start":9250.767,"end":9273.441,"text":"我們雖然知道一定比例,1%也是一定的比例,50%也是一定的比例,100%也是一定的比例所以無論如何,原住民學校要能夠達到我們剛才提到的這些傳承語言文化作為孩子的自信的來源這種去殖民教育的目標跟成果,真的需要下定決心來力挽狂瀾"},{"start":9274.221,"end":9294.989,"text":"不然我們的語言跟文化也不過就是一種象徵性的存在一種減緩它的流失那也不會有機會能夠真正的重新發展另外一個部分是其實前面有幾個參與的我也有提到目前台灣16個族群甚至更多包含平伯族群各自的語言發展的狀態都不太一樣"},{"start":9295.729,"end":9310.684,"text":"我們當然不能完全就說達摩納共學園它是一個目標但是每一個族群所遭遇到的處境也不一樣所以我覺得原住民學校法不應該侷限在公立學校的轉型更重要的事情是在條文上我們如何去鼓勵"},{"start":9311.685,"end":9340.515,"text":"原住民族群各個族群或是部落自主興辦原住民學校的自主權因為每一個族群所面臨到的挑戰其實也都不一樣即便是公立或是類似有原住民自己發動這些學校也不能因為資源上面出現差別待遇應該要同時去支持原住民自主興辦或是公立學校的轉型最後一個建議就是說"},{"start":9342.267,"end":9354.659,"text":"就我們現在這些條文裡面都提到了要擔任這個學校的校長或是老師有一個門檻叫做高級的屬於認證我覺得這個是要循序漸進最後更重要的事情是"},{"start":9355.816,"end":9382.902,"text":"我發現那個失陪生的門檻只有中高級如果用訓用合一來說的話他中高級進入到學校又要高級根本就銜接不起來那我們有沒有可能在公費生的整個的失陪制度上面是朝向高級的目標要調整的是本身的培訓的做法而不是一種附加式的給幾個主義課程就期待他說他可以通過中高級所以"},{"start":9384.542,"end":9409.898,"text":"回應到整個的民族的生存跟發展語言一向是一個非常重要的核心中的核心那也是我們在談轉型這一中的核心所以我也期待說要談原住民的整體的教育的發展力往華南應該要擺在我們成立原住民學校法這件事情的我們的心中去考量教育的目標"},{"start":9414.315,"end":9434.786,"text":"謝謝師傅拉告剛才他多次提到Tamorak怎麼唸TamorakTamorak接下來就是他了其實十幾二十年前很多人到"},{"start":9435.973,"end":9464.258,"text":"我的學校參觀因為我是體制內但是其實我是一直到體制外就是他的學校參觀我心目中的原住民族學校就是希望有一天在國教體制下我們能夠把這樣的學校建立起來我想這個也就是原住民族學校法必須要立法很重要的一個原因那在他開始講之前因為便當已經發放到各位的桌上"},{"start":9465.883,"end":9484.794,"text":"請大家自行來使用那如果要上洗手間也可以自行離開但是我這邊要宣告一下因為在座我有看到東華大學的石中山副校長也有來自八南花高國中小實驗學校的阿浪校長"},{"start":9486.154,"end":9513.47,"text":"還有在帶領泰雅課綱的徐榮春校長如果我是希望說大家來是不是可以也請你們一起發言因為今天都會列入公報記錄我們是真的希望用AI去跑一下把今天的整個重整一下那大家也別急著走因為最後我們還是要請教育部園民會針對今天大家的發言處的回應那我們就慢慢用餐好嗎好來請"},{"start":9518.157,"end":9539.509,"text":"各位大家好我是從體制內出走的到體制外的老師我原本是在體制內擔任老師深深覺得在體制內要推動民主教育只有兩個字叫做無力所以我就是在2009年的時候走出體制去到體制外"},{"start":9540.525,"end":9557.546,"text":"做實驗教育我們從2015年進行到現在是已經邁入第12年不能說叫做成功或者是什麼可是我覺得會看到有一些成果在孩子身上"},{"start":9558.847,"end":9575.793,"text":"我也不是鼓勵所有的體制內都要像我一樣出走走到體制外我只是覺得說如果這個立法已經從105年講到現在我覺得真的是永遠會來不及那我覺得先看一下"},{"start":9577.513,"end":9605.764,"text":"我今天准备了一些东西先看一下刚刚那个媳妇拉高一直提到我们那究竟我们是怎么在自己的共学园进行了什么事情先看一下我们的主语教学的一些一小段影片我已经把它集结了拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉拉"},{"start":9610.336,"end":9617,"text":"你喜歡嗎?你喜歡嗎?老婆,我喜歡!你喜歡嗎?我喜歡!你喜歡嗎?我喜歡!你喜歡嗎?我喜歡!"},{"start":9639.652,"end":9650.174,"text":"阿里亚哇阿里亚哇阿里亚哇阿里亚哇阿里亚哇阿里亚"},{"start":9667.892,"end":9668.272,"text":"我們過來 再錄 要寫"},{"start":9685.929,"end":9712.046,"text":"這個就是我們在那邊進行母語的方式我們不用課本主語是必須生活跟講出來的事情它不是在那裡寫課本在那裡照著課本在那裡學習而是必須在生活當中說出來這是我在體制內深深的感觸你沒有辦法在主語課40分鐘學習到什麼母語"},{"start":9714.912,"end":9740.664,"text":"主語必須要生活當中去實踐跟講所以我用的是完全不一樣的教育方式去帶孩子說主語那這樣子有什麼成果呢其實我們推動了11年來這是我們的教育成果我們在幼兒園進行全部就是全母語的方式不會聽不會說的孩子進來兩個月可以聽可以說"},{"start":9745.066,"end":9769.623,"text":"民族學校的第一個要件不就是要會說族語嗎我如果不會說阿美語我是阿美族人嗎我不會說排灣族話我是排灣族人嗎所以民族教育的第一個要件就是必須要會說族語要不然的話什麼都不用談"},{"start":9771.476,"end":9793.983,"text":"那我們可以透過這樣子完完全全的全天的沉浸不會聽不會說最慢四個月就可以聽可以說那現在我們的那邊的孩子已經進行到九年級今年就會有九年級畢業的孩子我們在八年級的時候會要求他用主語做專題報告"},{"start":9795.956,"end":9809.228,"text":"目前我們那邊就是1到9年級有22個中小學的孩子幼兒園因為少子化的問題人數有越來越少第二個我們自己製編教材"},{"start":9810.393,"end":9828.825,"text":"我們是透過大量的歌曲跟季節生活現在是夏天我們就是帶孩子去海邊講夏天生活上的話所以我們創造了很多生活念咬然後把故事打開來就是用阿美語念"},{"start":9829.665,"end":9853.652,"text":"然後我們也製作了動畫放在網路上讓不能學族裔的家庭可以透過網路來學習另外我們也出版了繪本那關於國小的部分我們也是自己製編教材我必須要讓大家知道就是說體制外可以做到什麼那究竟民主學校教育法可以怎麼樣來修訂第三個成果"},{"start":9857.079,"end":9883.085,"text":"我們除了這些編這些教材之外所謂的你在現在民族實驗學校可以看到這些所謂的部落知識課程我們就是融入在生活當中春天就是採集夏天就是帶孩子去海邊秋天我們就是做河川的學習冬天是山林就是把這些所謂的"},{"start":9884.685,"end":9909.162,"text":"铺落的传统知识融合在生活当中完全都是族人来教然后因为我待过体制学校这些课程很多人你们找了企业来教可是是什么是用华语在教你们找了那些这么珍贵的老师来他只能用华语教原因是什么因为他听不懂族语"},{"start":9910.43,"end":9926.356,"text":"所以你必須從幼兒開始所以我們這些課程全部是主語在教那孩子到國小會主語能力不好嗎這是不可能的事我可以跟各位說這些孩子在家沒有在說阿美語的然後我們還帶著孩子演出這個舞台劇去年我們在東台灣巡演把部落的"},{"start":9937.462,"end":9964.023,"text":"族语故事演出来是一小时的阿美语歌舞剧我必须要很多时间让各位了解所以我会这样用时间委员不好意思第四个我们还有什么成果我们让许多族人因为这个教育搬回来然后让许多家庭包括不是阿美族的家庭因为这个教育他喜欢他搬到"},{"start":9965.796,"end":9993.875,"text":"我們那裡非常偏鄉的地方我們那個地方開車到花蓮市到台東市都要一個半小時車程沒有7-11沒有全聯可是卻有族人他因為這個教育想要回去所以教育是可以讓地方重新有不一樣的活力跟地方創生可是必須要不一樣的教育那我們有什麼成果呢"},{"start":9994.898,"end":10021.252,"text":"我本來一點都不認同足以認證通過足以認證幹嘛會講了嗎他是為了什麼去考試但是好像通過足以認證可以被政府看到我今年就只好帶了我國中國醫生一次考試就五張中高級"},{"start":10024.672,"end":10040.386,"text":"國一的中高級武裝我不是在說我們有多厲害或者是什麼而是民族教育他必須從幼兒開始然後我看了那個四個版本的法我回去蠻仔細的看我覺得就我在"},{"start":10049.002,"end":10070.223,"text":"11年跟之前我12年在體制教育12年在體制外教育我覺得立法真的會永遠來不及第一個現在的首一要件必須要先把像我們這樣已經有很大成果的跟八斗高中已經連成一貫我們必須做出12年一貫的民族教育"},{"start":10071.26,"end":10092.112,"text":"一個示範而且必須儘快因為其實我們很辛苦快要滅亡的地步我們還在苦撐我覺得剛剛幾位委員離開沒有聽到我的報告老實說我覺得非常可惜因為從來只有五六個委員看到我們這邊在做什麼其他的這些委員他們不知道我們做什麼我不曉得他們的助理有沒有在這裡"},{"start":10101.035,"end":10127.224,"text":"然後你就會覺得很辛苦但是會覺得必須趕快做從我這些實際的經驗我覺得對於那些法我有幾個幾個我實際的想法第一個我認為校長的產生學校的管理師培方面教學教法內容這些全部要從寬我是漢人"},{"start":10128.971,"end":10145.856,"text":"有非常多不屬於原住民的人他們對於民族教育有很深的熱情跟興趣所以校長不能夠局限在只有漢人或者是高級族語認證我沒有通過任何 有啦 我後來去考了可是我有參加族語文學比賽我全部有入選"},{"start":10157.216,"end":10180.305,"text":"我沒有通過認證的時候我平常對我的小孩子還是說安美族語啊所以所有的這些包括課綱什麼的我認為不用制定的那麼嚴格我們一個村落就是一個國家就是一個的概念你怎麼有辦法去制定一個標準課綱讓各個村落去執行"},{"start":10182.139,"end":10206.099,"text":"所以我覺得這些全部從觀是哪裡要嚴格是評鑑要嚴格這個學校有沒有做到該有的這些孩子都會主語孩子都有文化認同很有自信這是我對民主學校法的一個想法然後我很希望趕快可以有一個"},{"start":10207.864,"end":10223.35,"text":"結合八斗高中一個12年一貫的民族學校示範區謝謝好 謝謝淑照老師她不是原住民但是她竟然會講阿美語也能夠訓練"},{"start":10224.85,"end":10254.121,"text":"带动孩子们会说阿美语真的不容易非常不容易那刚才您的意见我都记录起来我先跟各位说今天的所有的公报记录上各位发言我们会试着去用AI跑一下然后重整比较好的一个结果给大家那教育部张廖次长还有那个袁明慧副主委在刚才有提到12年一贯什么接"},{"start":10254.841,"end":10283.571,"text":"我們那個八斗高中的部分那個上市教育部那個七年一貫的已經可以做了那個部分我有處理了那教育部也都可以接納好謝謝那接下來這一位一樣他不是原住民但是他長期以來非常關注原住民族學校的一個立法跟發展我們邀請台東大學教育學系的王乾隆教授請"},{"start":10287.188,"end":10307.072,"text":"再度幫我們收整主席各位各位長官貴賓各位委員那我們是台中大學王乾隆那今天就這四個版本的那個草案那我因為我比較熟悉有關失智培育的部分好那我們就從這失培的角度來去切入那"},{"start":10307.572,"end":10336.486,"text":"那一開始第一個民主學校它的設立跟治理模式的定位那我有些基本的看法也就是說其實這原住民族學校的成立它最基本的關鍵是在於說誰能夠來管理掌控這樣的一個學校那其實它跟那個原住民族自治有直接的關係如果能夠根據原住民族基本法那成立那個原住民族自治區具有限級的權利那它就依據我們現在國家因為現在地方自治法"},{"start":10336.966,"end":10354.384,"text":"那個我們學校的那新辦管理它是那個縣政府層級的一個一個權限所以如果能夠成立自治區取得選舉的單位假設我們就以南部假設以屏東來講屏東台東的原住民族地利區如果能夠成立排辦族自治區"},{"start":10355.405,"end":10375.524,"text":"自然而然就24間國小加附幼在家鄉4間國中再加上來義中學形成12年一貫的那個民主教育體系可是在這裡面的民主學校一般教育實驗教育這時候就可以由自治區的主席跟他的教育委員來去決定那關鍵是在於說能夠實質來影響到來掌控來執行這個學校"},{"start":10380.228,"end":10395.231,"text":"好那就失之培育的部分因為我們在那個民族學校的定位他現在好都依據國家語言發展法其實在108年的時候國家語言發展法失之培育法和那個原住民族教育法已經很明確定位就是說"},{"start":10396.172,"end":10423.186,"text":"我們在原住民族語言應該是能夠作為教學語言那這個是符合那個世界那個原住民族權力宣言它的一個理念我們就要透過語言適合於原住民的語言文化來接受教育所以我今天要強調的一點是接受教育不只是學習文化是接受教育那它的觀念就是發揮潛能發揮潛能所以我們東大師培中心這五年那我們"},{"start":10425.707,"end":10437.693,"text":"來執行那個國家原住民族語文資質培育的一個經驗那我們宗教學程我們有20位同學有3位考過高級認證那個真的是非常艱難有一位成為大王國中的正式教師"},{"start":10443.496,"end":10462.145,"text":"那這個過程真的是非常難因為我們在草案裡面提到那個校長要高級認證因為我們在台東我們就很務實的來去看說在台東假設說我們現在的實驗學校如果說要成立民主學校在台東縣內有沒有辦法找到有高級認證的校長很顯然非常難應該是沒有"},{"start":10463.846,"end":10487.982,"text":"高級認證真的非常難考那我個人也陪著學生讀這個主語讀了五年那我有那個排灣語中高級認證那中高級認證我考了五次才考過考了五次高級認證陪著學生進去考我讀了五年只考到100分考到三位數真的非常難所以我們用盡了所有的方法因為我們師資培育裡面強調要讓"},{"start":10490.063,"end":10509.327,"text":"一開始就設定高級這真的是非常難我們就有年輕世代來講因為他這個是嚴重病危語言我們對於年輕人因為他們從小沒有說過主要讓他們說出來他這個不是語言復生他是語言再生所以不過我們用盡所有方法用教育的方法我們讓數位學生在全國的演講比賽能夠拿到36張獎狀例如說那個因為現在我們108年整個"},{"start":10516.429,"end":10533.755,"text":"整個師培整個那個法規它的核心最核心最核心那個法條就是那個國小那個公費生師培公費生他必須通過聽說讀寫的那個中高級認證現在雖然放寬了是聽跟說中高級不過我們台東大學有辦法只要他能夠聽跟說"},{"start":10534.855,"end":10553.426,"text":"两分钟过听跟说中高级我们就有办法让他来进行两分钟的还有五分钟的演讲而且我们要去想像这个民族实验学校我们未来的愿景我心中的想法是说假设今天的场合其实两大主题我们现在已经在训练我这15个学生我们用AI"},{"start":10554.927,"end":10573.192,"text":"我們會建議原民會強化注意醫樂園的功能要能夠讓notebookLM能夠讓他能夠來翻譯好像今天這兩大主題民主學校定位跟師資培育與文化傳承這個都可以翻譯成這個主語我們未來培養出來的這些學生"},{"start":10573.912,"end":10592.601,"text":"在我們國家這個層級因為它已經是國家語言發展法這個層級國家語言有一群年輕人能看得懂族語能夠用族語來表達所以現在每年有100個師師生要考過中高級認證已經5屆了500個師師生他們究竟是誰他們在哪裡我們要把它整合起來未來他們如果像"},{"start":10593.821,"end":10597.963,"text":"關於他們自己的政策每年有一百個師師生必須通過認證來成為教師那這個要怎麼講呢這台灣語啊"},{"start":10611.251,"end":10615.794,"text":"就說這個呢我們現在在談剛才已經幼兒園到高中像我們現在的那個我們的東大學生團隊裡面實力最強的就是八島高中八島高中那位那個趙敏同學那實力真的非常強我們去年我們在全國賽有兩位"},{"start":10637.569,"end":10662.396,"text":"拿到特優兩位優等那還有假等就是說我們現在在談這個民主學校我們要設定那個明確的目標我們要把這國家語言透過AI要有一群人假設現在已經有500個人這500個人你要讓他能看得懂主語醫樂園主語醫樂園我天天讀我讀了五年我每天都讀我做夢都在講主語醫樂園"},{"start":10664.577,"end":10685.871,"text":"因為這個就是我們原住民族裔的那個知識體系我們現在已經有這個師師生我們有一個師師生他就是公費生中高級認證台東縣演講第一名大專賽第一名全國決賽優等三大張獎狀我們在講的是發揮潛能我們要告訴家長說我們學習這個族裔文化"},{"start":10688.473,"end":10708.62,"text":"他得到這樣的一個成績他就是全國唯一就是全國唯一所以這只要去做有方法我們台東大學都做得到所以就是說我們現在在談說透過民族學校來接受教育發揮學生的潛能那這個也是符合那個那個國際人權法他的理念他是透過"},{"start":10709.42,"end":10730.036,"text":"文化來接受教育像那個紐西蘭毛利然後那邊還有1萬多個學生能夠講出主語我們這邊有13萬個原住民都講不出來那麼台東大學我們願意就是說能夠接續剛才我們前兩位講者從高中那現在也有那個八斗高中全到台東大學我們繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":10733.177,"end":10760,"text":"謝謝老師非常準時很謝謝但是他剛才讓我們看到一件事他說任何學習都是有方法的所以也許我們在這個立法的過程中真的看起來所有的版本今天都是被批判的啦都不好就是這件衣服做的都不好沒有關係我們今天公聽會完了我們會找大家一起來"},{"start":10760.74,"end":10777.632,"text":"看怎么样去做一件适合各个族群穿的衣服谢谢老师好那接续下来呢我们邀请的是在桃园市有一个罗府高中那这个学校呢是国高中国小有没有"},{"start":10778.915,"end":10791.133,"text":"全部在一起從幼兒園到高中對從幼兒園到高中全部都有的那這一間學校的校長就責任很重大來歡迎馬紹比令校長"},{"start":10794.674,"end":10799.256,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位專家學者以及關心教育的所有先進 大家午安 大家好"},{"start":10813.801,"end":10838.029,"text":"很榮幸能夠來到立法院今天其實每一個討論提綱包含小標其實每一項都很重要在座所有的教育先進前面有提到很多的政策的建議以及一些分享我今天就是來分享教育現場的觀察與期待"},{"start":10838.869,"end":10865.676,"text":"那今天马少奇不只是代表罗浮高中来发言那更希望能够是代表愚民的家长跟孩子来发言那也期待能够代表那些在山上我们的Yudasaki仍然说着族语却担心下一代再也听不懂的人发言更代表这片土地许多曾经被看见又曾经被遗忘的文化发言那首先我想分享这个教育现场的故事在罗浮高中"},{"start":10867.076,"end":10893.076,"text":"我们某些孩子应该是大部分的孩子每天清晨五点多起床那搭车翻山越岭来到学校那有些孩子的长辈人家说着这个流利的泰亚语可是他担心他的马后已经听不懂自己的母语也有些孩子在学校我们学校是技职教育学会了这个法式甜点考取了专业证照但是他却不知道"},{"start":10894.377,"end":10919.964,"text":"部落祖先留下來的智慧與故事我想這些孩子他不是缺少能力喔而是我們的教育制度長期習慣用同一把的尺來衡量所有的孩子所以今天討論原住民族學校法喔馬蘇認為最重要的其實不是在談一部新的這個律法制度他更是在回答一個更根本的問題我們到底希望未來我們達安的孩子成為什麼樣的人是"},{"start":10921.104,"end":10948.767,"text":"这个离开母文化才能够成功的人还是能够依靠母文化跟土地共同呼吸走向世界的人那原住民教育走到今天从过去的受教权保障也渐渐走向这个教育的自主治理那其实我们感谢这个过去的很多的教育伙伴跟先进在原教法的推动也感谢这个立了政府与前辈的努力然而在教育现场第一线我们持续看到许多的困境"},{"start":10949.608,"end":10970.444,"text":"课程由国家决定的多,族群代表参与的少。教育评量重视分数,但是难以看见文化的能力。师资制度它重视资格,可是却未必重视这个有部落智慧的乞老、智者。学校治理重视行政程序,却缺少族群代表的声音。"},{"start":10971.405,"end":10997.636,"text":"在過去羅浮高中在102年成立的時候我常常自嘲自己是一個被反援運學校因為當時我們在原住民高中籌備處在大園要設立但是被當地拿石頭拿雞蛋丟說不願意在大園地區設這個原住民高中直到今日我們在一般學校雖然是原住民重點學校可是"},{"start":10998.772,"end":11028.195,"text":"身為校長身為原住民教育的工作者我們想要開原住民級的教師的資格竟然我舉雙手雙腳都沒有辦法開成一個原住民的原住民級的師資那想想在過去45、50年前的這個New Zealand的毛利族當時也面臨跟現在的情況其實蠻相似的語言快速的流失文化逐漸邊緣化當時他們直接思考"},{"start":11029.732,"end":11033.802,"text":"如果孩子每天在學校待8個小時可是他離自己的文化越來越遠"},{"start":11035.698,"end":11064.818,"text":"那這個教育到底是在培養我們下一代的未來還是在切斷它跟母文化的根源因此他們推動了這個毛利幼兒園毛利族的教育體系那四十年後的今天我們看到他們的成功更重要的是他們培養了一群是毛利族優秀的代表更是世界公民的新世代這也告訴我們一件事情原住民族教育不是要把孩子留在過去而是要讓孩子"},{"start":11066.159,"end":11089.04,"text":"帶著母文化走向未來所以今天在推動援助民族學校法我認為我們也正在站在相同的歷史轉折點所以我們真正要討論的其實不是要墮設援助民族學校我們更期待這部法能夠盡快的然後有一個這個大共識然後來執行那"},{"start":11090.339,"end":11111.522,"text":"也在讨论一件事情台湾愿不愿意相信原住民族有能力决定自己的教育未来因为教育自主治理它不是只有行政制度的调整它更是国家对民族尊严的承认当然现在我们台湾的原教已经做得比过去好了很多但是我们仍然看到很多的矛盾"},{"start":11112.728,"end":11136.966,"text":"我們在課堂上看到孩子寫作文他可以談論哈利波特但是他不知道自己部落的遷徙故事在課堂上孩子會背英文可是在現實生活他卻不敢開口說族語孩子知道世界上有許多國家但是他不知道祖先如何在山林跟自然共存"},{"start":11138.052,"end":11161.404,"text":"那我們不是反對現在教育所重視的基本能力我們是期待孩子在認識之前他能夠更認識自己那在Diane的文化裡面我們其實相信一件事情山有記憶流域會說話土地有呼吸跟心跳那當然教育的責任就是把這些文化的能力跟記憶交給下一代因此我認為"},{"start":11162.925,"end":11190.972,"text":"原住民的教育他尤其是在語言或是更多文化課他不是只加幾節俗語課加幾節文化課他應該是真正以民族知識體系為核心的教育場域那因此我這裡也提出幾個三個大方向那第一個就從教育參與走向教育治理第二部分就從文化保存走向文化創生與永續第三個從教育平等走向積極的教育公平正義"},{"start":11191.992,"end":11209.848,"text":"所以原住民学校法的原住民主学校法的制定真正的核心不是建立另外一种特殊学校而是建立一套能够让原住民主成为教育主体的制度让族人不只是教育的接受者他更是教育的决定者参与者跟实践者"},{"start":11210.916,"end":11236.315,"text":"各位委員各位先進我服務的羅浮高中是桃園市唯一的原住民完全重點學校我每天在學校裡看到孩子們在學校的這個學習場景我常有一種感受就是這些孩子他其實像山上的樹一樣樹如果長得很高他不是因為離開土地而是因為根扎得夠深如果根沒有再高的樹也站不久所以"},{"start":11237.156,"end":11254.61,"text":"同時我也想起一件事情教育真正重要的不是要讓孩子飛得多高而是讓他飛向世界之後是不是可以持續記得自己的名字自己的語言自己的來處一個民族最長遠的未來除了良善的政策之外"},{"start":11255.31,"end":11283.1,"text":"更在教育的主體每一位孩子身上所以今天討論原住民主學校法其實是在為下一個世代鋪下一個種子我們也期待這些種子有一天能夠長成森林那原住民主學校法真正重要的不只是今天立法的推動而是為五十年後台灣原住民主教育留下真正的答案最後也感謝今天所有的教育夥伴節就先進謝謝"},{"start":11285.111,"end":11302.739,"text":"好非常感動謝謝馬紹北林校長帶來現場的聲音那我想在這邊剛才有講很語重心長真的不是只是為了立法為目的而是為了各個原住民族群的未來"},{"start":11303.9,"end":11323.966,"text":"留下一個火苗種子這個是很卑微的一個請求特別是在中華民國這個民主法治講求多元的國家那國家會更美麗是因為我們很多元那這個聲音不能只剩下一種文化不能只剩下一種"},{"start":11324.526,"end":11352.155,"text":"語言不能只剩下一種所以這個就是想要透過學校來保存延續謝謝馬紹比林校長那接下來這位校長也是很多人的偶像因為他一個人撐從幼兒園到高中而且是在實驗體制下不斷地突破突破那很多人都很驚訝他是怎麼做到的"},{"start":11352.54,"end":11357.044,"text":"那我們來聽聽看他在第一線的看法歡迎阿朗張新榮校長"},{"start":11360.661,"end":11382.701,"text":"謝謝主席那各位先進那我是那個八蘭花的阿朗今天時間也只有7分鐘所以我先各自一下上海的浪漫來做精準的宣讀與文化祝福好那首先感謝原民會院國教署高雄市政府教育局支持八蘭花第一屆實驗高中成立與促成突破新時代的文理科技人才的培育模式那我們今年如願達成兩班的招生"},{"start":11383.462,"end":11413.062,"text":"除了維繫國中會考5B的軍標跟寫作四級分以上的品質更期待118年可以通過學測的軍標與文理特殊選材的機制來論證聯合國氣候變遷下倡議United for Nature的世界觀主動積極附贈原民生態實驗學校的Cultural Nature Based Solution的世界觀的資產與AI學習世代的知行合一的行動知識的貢獻路徑來練習知行合一從土地生態共存的母語智慧的思維長出改變世界的力量"},{"start":11413.922,"end":11428.691,"text":"那么回到今天原住民族学校法公听会从教学现场的实践经验找到突破结构与重整建构与世界同步人才的培育体制大概就是有分三个的向度待会做个报告第一个就是回馈公听会背后的当代的命题"},{"start":11429.511,"end":11448.232,"text":"第二个就是原民会的政策方向与台湾十年原民实验教育经验的双赢节奏的思维第三个能够打起突破与具体实践的精准策略作为一个做中学的行动以超越结构的困局那第一个离奇命题就是原住民学校法的推动的趋利超越现状"},{"start":11449.213,"end":11473.736,"text":"首先当代文化幽灵的世界观的命题其实在我们的新世代在文化认同与学科升学之间选择判断的矛盾人格阴影跟扭曲其实这造成了心理不健康社会也不健康未来也不健康其实政府在推动SEL其实目的就是要心理健康社会健康未来健康所以就是没有SEL才推SEL没有友善就推友善校园政策没有原住民"},{"start":11474.477,"end":11500.304,"text":"學校法就推原住民學校法他其實背後的想像就是因為這部分沒有辦法讓他正常的完整一個學校的教育那再來就要釐清討論如何系統性的思維跨族群能夠相互演化相互完整成就跨族群彼此的知識體系然後如何看待世界成就彼此的世界觀是我們原住民學校法的重點那巴拉花就是一所沒有記過跟警告的學校"},{"start":11501.184,"end":11528.318,"text":"我們這樣的方式其實就達到了它重要以文化精神等同國家法律的成效那這是我們最重要的一個價值的目的那為何推動原住民學校法目的就是成就彼此的世界觀好不是只是說哪個知識比較優劣的概念而是成就彼此在這塊土地上的生存那第二個推動原住民學校法重點在他的教學法如果只用透過教科書其實實際上它的內容原住民只能放在史前時代"},{"start":11529.378,"end":11543.554,"text":"它沒有辦法成為一個成就彼此的一個知識的內涵那原住民到底的設計要怎麼樣去做一個文理空間轉移的設計師從我們的土地長出改變世界的知識力量成為一個相互完整的人那可以看到呢"},{"start":11544.355,"end":11569.566,"text":"那個就是影片上的圖片其實就是我們高中四個類組的學科的運作模式然後完成一個土地的建構因為時間上的關係我大概沒有辦法做比較多的描述待會兒我會做一個說明這是第一個就是為什麼要做原住民學校法就是成就彼此的世界觀那第二個當然是要以母語為主嘛因為那塊土地就是母語原住民的母語是描述跟自然共存的知識體系"},{"start":11570.606,"end":11594.923,"text":"而不是只是在從傳統人類學家裡面表達的社會世界觀它最早就是跟自然共存才長出它的知識體系那原名就是在聯合國United for Nature裡面跟自然知識體系最重要的自然解方所以回到那個再還原一次其實就找到原住民的貢獻的知識路徑那從過去的一般文化回憶式的教學法"},{"start":11595.583,"end":11625.043,"text":"其实无法解决克刚的知识结构跟螺旋式教科书的零碎的发展的阶梯式的逻辑因为他的知识就是零碎的可是原民只要知道那个家屋他就系统性的生存知识会出现而不是只是这个阶梯式的发展出来所以我们必须要用用学合一的知识体系来实践这个案例能够找出一个真诚又善良又分享成就彼此的原住民的知识体系这才是我们基本上的想象那依据巴南花了十年的"},{"start":11626.384,"end":11634.297,"text":"相互完整的世界經驗跟專門通才的提醒人才的培養就發展出一個學測系統性的思維的共振教學法"},{"start":11635.322,"end":11661.208,"text":"照理說這個土地是一個交叉學科它應該就是系統性思維而不是拆解單元那單元只是後來課綱再重新組合排出它的順序可是它的系統性知識都能夠解決這個問題那時間上大概沒有辦法說得比較明確這樣子那我待會舉個例子來跟大家做個說明就是以文化空間轉移的生態的世界觀以布農族的家屋的30兆的生活"},{"start":11662.388,"end":11673.574,"text":"火塘的生態空間用文化跟化學來做一個語境的描述這樣子好 我現在就講一個布農族的火跟那個高中的化學怎麼樣去描述一個教材"},{"start":11674.591,"end":11700.11,"text":"布隆族人在内本路乃布鲁重建三年的教育基地并在传统石板屋中央点燃了神圣的三十灶火堂在化学上木材的燃烧属于剧烈的燃烧反应与放热反应在此过程中物质与能量产生了重组为了确保燃烧的效率族人会采集含水率极低的干燥木材当空气供应受限时"},{"start":11701.291,"end":11723.758,"text":"30兆的火塘会转为闷烧的状态进行不完全燃烧使得反应物转化为黑烟导致屋内的空气组成发生改变除了释放二氧化碳CO2还会伴随产生具有毒性的一氧化碳CO引发高温度的一氧化碳风险同时空气中含有高浓度的BPM的量与宣布威力"},{"start":11724.378,"end":11740.537,"text":"那園民是透過他的石板屋的設計跟他的多孔的方式完成這樣通風跟他的設計所以通過文化跟化學的部分就能夠完成這樣的一個任務那這樣母語文化的理科的科技人才就能夠具備實踐那最後的時候"},{"start":11741.933,"end":11769.494,"text":"10年的穩健的疊加的超越跟下一步的突破我會建議是這樣那原民會的政策期待跟教育部的機制跟教學現場的主體性與學術搭橋的研究行動面對這種情況因為現在就有體制學校在做應該就要可以進行而不是等到法令去執行因為我們的教育是場域的實踐而不是個概念的知識的先行這件事情要分清楚我們的知識體系是從場域開展不是從概念邏輯先開動而是這"},{"start":11770.752,"end":11792.444,"text":"场域的知识开展出概念的逻辑这两者之间才能够完成这样的部分所以我期待原民会能够在稳定推动之外能够召开原住民教育体制的国事会议来整合现行当中的几所学校能够先行的就能够去去开展做原住民学校法部分这样子然后建立教学现场为主的推动办公室以上说明谢谢大家"},{"start":11794.071,"end":11812.121,"text":"好 謝謝因為阿朗校長他做很多所以會變得不知道到底要講哪一塊但是他提醒我們就是現在很多事情就可以做了那也希望立法的工程能夠請我們教育部園民會"},{"start":11813.101,"end":11830.978,"text":"早日來召開一個原住民族教育的一個國師會議他的成績是拉到國師會議那希望我們可以早點完成這件事謝謝阿朗校長的一個提醒分享那接下來呢我們要再次的邀請東華大學那非常的高興"},{"start":11832.799,"end":11858.489,"text":"這個副校長親自來到我們當中他自己本身是阿美族21萬人的阿美族來我們邀請我們石中山副校長謝謝謝謝委員還有我們在場的先進各位朋友大家好正如委員幫我就是說了一下我的族群背景一樣我是花蓮打發龍的阿美族"},{"start":11859.429,"end":11884.076,"text":"那非常感谢主席我今天发挥了我们那个神异民主的一个精神虽然我今天是突然冒出来的但是你并没有把我屏住在外让我在这个地方简单的分享我们今天的一些看法首先应该讲一件事情很久没有听到这么精彩的演讲比赛了从早到晚到从开始到现在每个人讲的都是这样子头头是道包括什么是原住民族学校"},{"start":11884.756,"end":11911.505,"text":"他们对原住民族学校的一个寄望他们的期待等等等等的以及还有我们听到前面就是说一路上就是在叙述我们今天在推动这个法案所经历的这样子种种的一个心酸种种心力我们觉得非常受益就是受益很多确实正如我们前面的几位发言人所提到了主席也提到了我们这段路其实已经走了很久公听会已经开了那么的多"},{"start":11912.165,"end":11934.779,"text":"大家已经听到很多的一些那个声音啊但是我想我要在这边跟大家讲的一件事情身为今天啊我不仅是说今天刚才主席特别介绍说我现在是东华大学副校长其实我还有一个身份我现在是我们东华大学原住民族学院的余院长也算是我们原住民族高能教育的一个最高的一个学府是在这个地方"},{"start":11935.419,"end":11952.802,"text":"那么具有这样子的身份我对于今天这样一个主题原住民族学校的它的设立以及我们今天是否应该推动这样子的原住民族学校的法律我基本上要跟大家讲一件事情是我的理念基本上跟在座的大部分人都一样"},{"start":11953.423,"end":11969.973,"text":"我们都非常期待也非常祝福这样子的一个法它能够早日实现正如我们今天已经很多人提到了我们高雄桃园区的新中国校它创立了我们今天台湾教育史上的一个非常重要的一个典范"},{"start":11970.453,"end":11991.537,"text":"它是我们一个非常重要的一个民族学校的一个例子我们特别希望就是说像主席今天从开始主持到现在一直跟我们强调的像这类学校它真的能够就是它的设立能够真的彰显我们今天宪法征书条文所立定的我们的宪政的目标能够真正的"},{"start":11991.877,"end":12011.929,"text":"透过我们就是说我们原住民族教育法所赋予我们的这样子的一个立法委托的这样的一个心精神让这类的学校遍地开花我想这在理念的层次上面我们是一样的其次我要讲的一件事情就是我必须要肯定今天我们所看到的四位委员他们所提出来的版本"},{"start":12013.27,"end":12035.336,"text":"关于原族民族学校法我必须要跟大家讲的是我很认真的把这四个不同的版本详细看了一遍虽然隶属不同的一个政党但是我们看到这几位立法委员他们都非常非常的肯定我们原族民族学校的一个设立虽然他们在部分的问题上面还存在一些的歧见"},{"start":12035.836,"end":12063.545,"text":"还有一些地方需要去磨合但是在大致的方向上面其实是非常非常类似的那些需要在磨合的地方例如像哪些呢包括主管机关包括专责机构包括我们的师资的身份包括我们的学历的衔接行政支持财力支持等等等等的这些通通都有需要我们在后续公听会结束之后各个部会可能要继续的沟通"},{"start":12064.325,"end":12085.805,"text":"我们委员也要继续的跟我们的政府部门进行沟通不过我今天要在这个地方特别要提出来除了我们今天在这个地方我们是一群同温层之外但是我还是要讲几个比较现实的一个问题终究我们今天作为学者我们常常会学就是反省一件事情理想"},{"start":12086.465,"end":12095.249,"text":"理論究竟能不能指導實際能不能影響現實因為我們現在面臨的就是一些現實的這些問題這些現實的問題我們不能視而不見那些問題剛才"},{"start":12101.491,"end":12122.416,"text":"培伦在他的一个就是他的分享当中已经提出来了我先讲一个非常笼统的一个大的问题那就是我们今天整个大社会是不是已经ready已经准备好要来去认识去迎接去接受一个我们还目前为止还不熟悉的一个学制的一个状态这是抽象的来讲"},{"start":12123.296,"end":12150.808,"text":"具体来讲刚才其实我们听到几个部会还有我们其实几个专家学者已经点出了几个具体的问题第一个师资不足的问题这是真的非常限制的问题各位我昨天就是说会来参加今天的公听会我上了我们立法院的全球资讯网查了一下110就是110年112年的10月立法院的全球资讯网显示了一个资料指出"},{"start":12151.289,"end":12162.903,"text":"教育部国教署曾经做了一个统计那个统计是关于111学年度的全国原住民重点学校4048所当中他们在就是111学年度"},{"start":12164.451,"end":12187.017,"text":"教师的原住民教师的比例未达原教法的标准的比例几乎高达63%按照我们原教法的一个师资原住民师资比例的要求我们那个要求还相当的低是只有三分之一或者是就是说依照学校原住民学生的比例来去配置那个师资"},{"start":12187.637,"end":12205.317,"text":"那么我们现在要看到的是世卫委员你们所提出来的这样子的版本对于原住民失之的要求那个比例是非常高的我看到世卫版本至少最低的通通都要三分之二以上那么如果我们看到现在三分之一都已经出现百分之六十几都不够的话我们的失之哪里来"},{"start":12205.877,"end":12225.824,"text":"我們今天會不會被外界就是說面臨一個指控那就是你們今天要馬上面臨就是說一個所謂的失之慌合理失之慌的這樣子一個情況然後呢我們今天貿然就是說設立的話我們是不是會被人家罵說你們是就是掛羊頭賣狗肉的一個學校根本就沒有原住民失之這是一"},{"start":12226.224,"end":12254.865,"text":"第二还有一个非常严重的一个问题那就是学历衔接的一个问题培伦刚刚有提到了今天如果我们今天来上原住民学校的这些学生他最后他的人生规划还是选择后续加入去考去上一般的普通高中乃至于后来的普通大学但是今天在我们整个入学学历的整个测验上面他的入学机制没有做一个弹性的一些调整我们仍然沿用这所谓的国中会考"},{"start":12255.245,"end":12281.386,"text":"高中的学历的这样子的一个入学制度的话请问这对我们的原住民学生是公平的吗我们已经设定了好了其他的一些配套的措施吗再来虽然我的好朋友们他们都已经说过他们有做了这样子的很多的公听会但是关于原住民学校设置的这样子一个知识体大的国家重大政策请问我们做过真的是严肃详细的一个政策评估政策评估的这样子的一个东西吗"},{"start":12281.966,"end":12298.005,"text":"因为时间限制限制我只条例的讲最后已经给我一分钟就好了好就是再来跨部会之间的沟通协调是不是已经完成了关于主管机关这件事情成者划分这件事情已经再来课程教材教法的这个东西"},{"start":12298.385,"end":12320.315,"text":"我们东西通通都准备了没有我的结语是什么结论是我们深深的祝福但是我们不要忘记了这些现实的问题存在在这个地方如果当这些现实的问题没有排除我们有没有一个过渡性的一个循序渐进的方式让我们同时关注这个立法的进度"},{"start":12320.635,"end":12342.19,"text":"能够尽快完成的时候我们同时不要让它停像这新中国小一样的我们有一个权益的措施透过行政契约的签署公办民营的方式我们让这样子的一个好的理念继续守下去我想我就简单的在这边跟大家分享谢谢非常感谢石中山副校长也是圆明院的院长"},{"start":12343.351,"end":12369.305,"text":"就是听了这么多人的发言之后帮我们做了一个总结非常感谢副校长的一个宝贵意见我们一定都会去重视也会有后续的动作谢谢您那接下来我们还有两位希望大家还能够耐得住性子因为越后面越精彩来他们已经完成了泰雅族的课纲"},{"start":12369.805,"end":12378.36,"text":"那今天雖然他說是來旁聽因為他想學習但是我覺得我們不要放過他來 徐榮春校長"},{"start":12396.276,"end":12410.289,"text":"好 謝謝我們最尊敬最親愛的吳委員趙偉還有在座的各位前輩 各位臺人 各位原住民的家人大家已經是無安了"},{"start":12411.35,"end":12428.359,"text":"我是來自新竹縣的Diane的校長也是國家教育研究院泰雅族課程綱要發展計畫的主持人這個計畫有兩位主持人一位是阿美族的周惠民周主任另外一位就是我"},{"start":12429.099,"end":12449.634,"text":"这个计划我们邀请也动员了大概有110名的包括学者专家也包括来自基层的实验教育的18所泰雅族的18所的实验教育的学校的校长主任老师还有部落的棋老那一起来就是在112年"},{"start":12451.676,"end":12466.67,"text":"教育部跟特別是園民會來帶領我們給予我們經費上的支持那我們在112年開始來建構泰雅族的民族教育的課綱那到今年的5月我們是暫時終止這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":12468.411,"end":12485.943,"text":"這大概其實短短不到三年應該說兩年多的時間我們現在有一個初稿這個初稿是泰雅族的雅雅的核心價值觀到底是什麼因為大家對雅雅的價值觀可能有不同的看法"},{"start":12486.403,"end":12515.245,"text":"不過我們透過跨流域然後部落跟學校的就是一起來共作然後我們整理出新的教育這個新叫引路難就是來自於新的一個啟發跟新的就心就心臟的心心理的心那這樣所以我們自己稱我們這個教育是新的教育那而這個樣的一個文化價值觀我們也從小學一年級到高中12年的學習重點"},{"start":12516.045,"end":12534.099,"text":"各個學習階段的學習重點我們也按照泰雅族的知識研究中心當初他們跨流域討論出來的九個構面九個知識面向我們去做了學習重點的一個安排我們不敢說這個課綱是已經到完美的一個"},{"start":12535.3,"end":12563.451,"text":"算是一個文件但是至少它是一個跨流域工作合作產生出來是屬於泰雅族由下而上的一個對教育自己的孩子的一個期待好那很希望就是說這樣的一個民族課綱可以繼續往前去深化跟發展好那我們這個計畫終止了就是暫時終止那我們其實也在思考要往"},{"start":12564.091,"end":12587.41,"text":"往哪一條路走 接下來要做什麼事那很高興的是在昨天我碰到一位國立大學的教授他跟我說他說他想要來了解泰雅族課綱那我說為什麼 因為他說他在116學年度他們學校要來開設30名泰雅族的公費生的師培"},{"start":12588.231,"end":12604.339,"text":"而這個大學的師培他們要用五年的培育的期間然後他們主要開設的課程是要依泰雅族的民族知識體系就是泰雅族的課綱來培育泰雅族的師資當然包括語言跟文化的涵養"},{"start":12605.379,"end":12626.008,"text":"我一聽我就說非常的感動我說為什麼你會有這樣的一個想法然後想要跟我們一起來討論也剛好讓暫時宗旨的泰雅克剛有一個出口因為他跟我說第一他就是長期關心泰雅族的民族教育第二個他說剛好是因為中北部有一個縣市"},{"start":12627.128,"end":12651.233,"text":"他們縣市的機關首長就是他們的教育局局長親自來跟他說他們那個縣市要開30個泰雅族的公費生他們希望在五六年之後他們那個縣市不管是將來的實驗就現在的實驗教育學校或者是未來的民族學校或者是一般的重點學校他們都希望"},{"start":12652.013,"end":12681.513,"text":"有就是民族的語言跟泰雅族的語言跟文化涵養很高的年輕的老師到學校來教學那我覺得這就是不謀而合那我們並沒有等說民族學校法一定要立法了以後我們才去做課綱然後我們一定要去做培育師資這件事情那也是要把這樣的一個訊息跟在座的各位教育前輩來說就是法很重要但是我們不能等"},{"start":12682.153,"end":12710.973,"text":"好那在这边容我用很短的时间来跟大家分享我们2023新竹县的实验教育的学校的校长老师去纽西兰奥克兰去参访的时候有一个故事让我们非常的感动一个故事是说有一个妇女她每天开单趟大概60公里的车程她载她自己的两个孩子还有她邻居的孩子到60公里以外的毛利小学去上课"},{"start":12711.893,"end":12731.645,"text":"他去那邊載他們過去然後他還要回家裡去務農然後呢到了放學他又再開60公里去接孩子再回到家裡那我就問這位婦女說你為什麼要這樣做她說我不希望我的孩子在他成長的過程當中沒有機會接觸自己的語言跟自己的文化在學校裡面"},{"start":12732.425,"end":12761.462,"text":"她不是說只有在家裡 她說在學校裡面我覺得這個婦女她這麼大的決心讓我們鼓舞泰雅獨的教育工作者另外我們也在拜訪一個小學它叫Waitakere 就是這樣的一個小學那個學校的校長叫Heather 一位女校長他們全校兩百多個孩子跟全校的老師來歡迎新竹縣泰雅獨的師長跟學生"},{"start":12762.142,"end":12791.107,"text":"後來他們用毛利的haka來歡迎我們我們看到孩子們聲嘶力竭用毛利人的戰舞來歡迎我們我們非常感動更感動的是我們在他們的課表看到他們一個禮拜每一個班級有五節的毛利語言跟文化課然後我就非常的怎麼講就是很想要了解他們到底怎麼上這些課然後我就問他說那你們有多少毛利的孩子在這個學校他告訴我一個毛利孩子都沒有"},{"start":12791.687,"end":12809.446,"text":"他是純白人的小學然後我就說那你們為什麼要這樣做他說他們不是只有他們的學校他們是那個區域這個區的教育審議會大家共同決定這個區的所有的中小學要回應就是他們那個"},{"start":12812.308,"end":12836.217,"text":"懷唐寧的條約要回應這個條約他們每個學校都一定要依照他們他們有紐西蘭國家課綱也有毛利的國定課程要回應這樣的課程所以他們我非常的感動就是連白人學校都可以這樣做所以呢我在這邊不是談沒有直接回應到今天討論的提綱裡面的任何一個子題"},{"start":12837.097,"end":12850.051,"text":"不過我在這邊要拜託就是我們公務人的長官再繼續來帶領我們來好好的去讓民主學校早日來上路那在這邊是我今天短暫的發言"},{"start":12852.943,"end":12879.41,"text":"謝謝徐榮春校長做課綱非常的辛苦那至少他們已經做出一套完整可以供其他的族群來參考繼續加油辛苦了那今天的最後一位其實本來今天是一號簽名是一號不知道是不是去處理什麼事情現在回來了讓我們歡迎一直在致力於做合作事業的林家豪理事主席請"},{"start":12882.031,"end":12907.993,"text":"大家好我是家豪那今天我非常榮幸能夠參加今天的公聽會那因為平常我就在業界在民間做合作事業的倡議當然18年來我們做了非常多的合作教育那合作教育這個部分來講不免也讓我自己心中有一些想法特別在今天公聽會感謝有這樣的機會能夠出席"},{"start":12908.553,"end":12922.934,"text":"那今天來到這邊的話我有準備一些提綱以避免說我在這樣的一個場合上面沒有完整說完我的一個想法那我今天總共有兩點在這邊跟各位先進前輩以及我們的主席"},{"start":12924.276,"end":12941.352,"text":"文化委員來這邊做一個分享第一個部分是說我要呼應前輩們的努力第二個部分是說我想針對合作教育能不能納入我們的原住民族教育體系的這個部分來做一些簡單的論述首先針對我們這個在"},{"start":12944.275,"end":12961.711,"text":"心靈前輩的努力下我們在這個所謂的原住民族學校法的部分其實我探究了一下立法的意旨是說要建構原住民族的自治的一個體系那核心在於什麼就是自治民族自治"},{"start":12962.591,"end":12987.225,"text":"這個法案預計剛剛我們前輩都有提到不論是憲法徵求條文的第十條乃至第十一款、第十二款等等都在彰顯國家為了肯定我們多元文化來積極的去維護發展原住民族的語言及文化等所以在這樣子的一個市場的氛圍下社會的氛圍下我們可以了解原住民族學校法的立法是相當重要的"},{"start":12987.705,"end":13005.421,"text":"那這邊來講的話我也針對討論提綱第二點就原住民族學校設立跟治理原則部分來講我這邊也認為說必須要遵照憲法徵修條文第十條第十二款國家應該要依民族的意願也就是國家必須完全依據我們原住民族的意願"},{"start":13006.121,"end":13031.981,"text":"去辦理相對應的一個部分那不是可能像民間有些像是被下一屆指導期等等的這個部分可能比較不是我們原住民族主要的意願第二個部分是說針對族語及文化實質的培植的部分也就是我們的提綱第四實質培育及教育專業制度的部分尤其是針對教師禁用及轉任保障制度的部分"},{"start":13032.361,"end":13053.389,"text":"我認為不應該稍微比較像有一些部分是比較透過普通的教育體系來去做這方面的一個提倡那我反倒應該覺得應該要回歸依照我們本族本部落的一些意願來去自主聘用族語老師或者甚至於"},{"start":13053.789,"end":13072.543,"text":"具有深度文化的我們的棋老這部分應該是要強化換句話說原住民族的文化最重要的是語言跟文化乃至於民族綜合的知識但這個部分來講的話只要他達到我剛剛前面就是只要這些實質能夠達到部落公認的"},{"start":13073.243,"end":13091.133,"text":"的一個水準的話基本上應該它要等同於教授的的一個待遇就像我們很多業師到學校其實就是業師跟教授還是有不一樣的地方但在原住民社會來講祈勞是非常非常重要的一個環節如果我們沒有正式這些具有傳統文化知識的祈勞"},{"start":13091.673,"end":13114.391,"text":"未來他們一個一個走掉了其實我們文化再也找不回來這是第一個部分那第二個部分是針對我自己長期在合作事業的一個看見我認為在我們現行的人住民教育自主體系裡面的建構中或許可以將合作教育納入原住民族教育體制之中怎麼說第一點目前來講我們國家的政策已經逐步地從保障受教權"},{"start":13115.451,"end":13140.796,"text":"逐步的邁向民主的主體性乃至於教育主體的一個治理但是我們可以重新思考一下教育的本質或許不只是在文化的保存跟文化的傳承更是應該培養未來的年輕人未來族人的治理能力那這個治理能力會包含的經濟能力跟社區發展的重要的一些指標以及工具在國際上在1996年這個國際勞工組織ILO他發佈了"},{"start":13145.138,"end":13160.492,"text":"127號的建議文裡面就是建議各國將合作教育納入教育的體系之中2002年ILO也是一樣有193號的建議書更明確指出合作教育的訓練應該要放在各級教育體系中去加以推動"},{"start":13161.172,"end":13186.054,"text":"那在國際合作事業聯盟就是ICA他也將合作教育跟訓練以及資訊放到所謂的合作社的七大原則之中所以在這樣的一個理念我們可以看到我們國內我們憲法第145條也有提到合作事業應受國家之獎勵以及輔助這樣子的一個氛圍下我認為透過教育來去培植民族參與共同治理的這樣的一個部分是更重要的而且"},{"start":13186.414,"end":13202.327,"text":"某種程度原住民族的文化的精神跟合作事業的長期發展是有高度的一致性再來就是我一直有提到的一個部分就是說目前台灣大概有450家的合作事業包含了農業、勞動、運銷、消費等等"},{"start":13206.07,"end":13226,"text":"那這些部分多數的合作社是建置於原住民地區那而且長期承擔了地方的產業發展跟舊創業社區服務金融輔導還有一些像是文化傳等等一個重要的工作所以換句話說合作是已經是我們原住民族社會中很重要的一個合作經濟的組織之一所以我們"},{"start":13226.94,"end":13243.457,"text":"在臺灣可以看到原住民地區有合作社但看不到完整的合作教育體系這是我所關心的也是我們民間合作事業所期盼的我們在波多可以看到產業但是缺少了培植合作事業治理的人才的這樣的一個管道所以"},{"start":13243.757,"end":13262.413,"text":"我認為在目前來講是積極需要被彰顯的那最後我也提到最後我也提一下就是我建議在未來的部分我們可以參考在原住民族學校法裡面的一些制度國小可以培養合作精神跟共享的觀念那國中可以導入合作教育那讓學生更認識合作精神"},{"start":13262.833,"end":13284.686,"text":"高中可以建立學校的一些實酬的課程在大學或者是我們講叫做長期的終身執研的部分像現在因應像AI的部分地方創生合作創生等等這個部落部分是可以提升也可以培養部落的人才所以就是我的結語是說我們今天在討論的原住民族的學校法其實不只是在討論學校治理權的轉移"},{"start":13285.886,"end":13304.631,"text":"應該是在思考未來原住民族就要培養什麼樣的人才那這樣的人才來講他的目的性是不是讓原住民族能夠具有能夠治理部落產業發展傳承的一個部分那以上是我在民間的一些看見希望透過簡短的部分來做一個部分那謝謝各位的先進前輩謝謝"},{"start":13307.291,"end":13334.68,"text":"好 謝謝我們最後一棒很特別他講的是合作教育但是很重要因為我們原住民族自治如果是終極目標那學校是一個很重要的一個推進器但是呢除了拿回教育的自主更重要的是未來的治理所以我覺得今天林家豪理事長給我們一個非常好的一些建議想法"},{"start":13335.1,"end":13362.462,"text":"好今天原本立法院是排6加6加113位13位那我們是邀請了17位來發言所以佔據了一些時間但是我認為這個跟我們努力了幾十年這個多一點點的時間半個小時其實我是覺得非常的值得謝謝大家願意坐下來繼續聆聽最後我們還是要回到邀請教育部跟園民會"},{"start":13363.924,"end":13370.678,"text":"針對今天公聽會的發言給我們一些重整的建議首先我們邀請教育部張廖萬堅次長請"},{"start":13378.592,"end":13404.369,"text":"好謝謝趙薇我想今天我在這邊也聆聽了多達17位我們的專家學者包括尤其是現場的這個從事目前從事這個第一線工作的導師也好或者是這個共學的一些負責人也好非常感動其實我在最年輕早期年輕的時候我在當新聞記者的時候我的第一個"},{"start":13405.33,"end":13424.662,"text":"那個路線就是跑原住民族的原住民的路線所以剛才提到1987年的原教法的那個原教的宣言當時我那時候剛好要去我念新聞剛好去這個採訪新聞所以我印象深刻那從過去到現在這樣聽起來就是我"},{"start":13425.462,"end":13446.097,"text":"其實也到伯馬去考察過好幾次,也看到了他們泰雅族的這個教材那今天聽了很多我們在現場的這個尤其是直接在現場像我們八斗子的老師們,洪祐老師,其實他提的跟我們最後這個合作教育還有包括之前的這個共學園的那個林淑兆老師"},{"start":13447.378,"end":13469.114,"text":"就他們現在在現場去推的東西其實已經走在前面了就是如果按照我們現在的這個發展那原住民學校我們都非常支持在教育部的立場但問題是說到現在為止沒有比較是不是已經有一些共識我聽到了幾個問題一個就是說現場的一些"},{"start":13473.217,"end":13489.767,"text":"努力的我們的工作者可能對於這部法覺得應該比較朝向柔性的方式的架構而不是過度硬性或者用一般過去教育部訂定的那種學校的這種框架運作的模式去框這個原住民學校"},{"start":13490.267,"end":13507.49,"text":"那這部分要怎麼樣來取得共識要柔性到什麼地步然後要怎麼樣子的一個架構我覺得這個真的有待大家的討論跟形成共識那第二個就是說我們現在跟原民會的合作我們的那個合作模式大概也是"},{"start":13508.351,"end":13524.086,"text":"比較多的都在談我們怎麼樣子投入資源就是說如果有好的一些想法那他從實驗學校他開始慢慢的走向更更更好的一個模式發展模式的時候我們怎麼樣子讓那個模式能夠在"},{"start":13526.187,"end":13544.964,"text":"繼續擴大就是說讓他能夠有各種模式能夠在這個原住民教育裡面他們比較希望的那個自主管理的模式或自主發展的那個模式我們怎麼樣子投入更多的資源或者說在法令上怎麼樣子如果要有這部學校原民學校法那這要怎麼樣子的這個"},{"start":13548.449,"end":13559.109,"text":"張這個規定裡面去給予那早期我們一直在強調那個知識體原住民知識體系的那個建構那16組的那個課綱也在發展那怎麼樣子跟地方"},{"start":13560.253,"end":13585.1,"text":"他實際的需求合作這個也是一個問題還有那個中間的那個那個我聽到很多那個施肢培育的問題我們今天施肢培育也來了我們怎麼樣讓這個我們說要落實那個自主性主體性我們怎麼樣讓那個施培能夠回到原民他們希望的這種培育方式譬如有提到很多主義老師他就不是一般的施培出來的那他的待遇"},{"start":13585.76,"end":13604.936,"text":"很明顯的是不夠的或者說有一些這個部落的一個文化的傳承師他可能也不是沒有受過傳統教育裡面他的這個認證什麼但他確實是非常重要的對於這個部落文化 族裔文化每一個族的文化都非常重要我們怎麼樣子來讓這些"},{"start":13607.819,"end":13622.294,"text":"今天聽到這些能夠在未來的法令裡面有一定的規範我覺得這個都非常重要教育部站在跟原民會合作協力合作的立場我們是願意來繼續傾聽然後在目前原教法已經有的"},{"start":13622.935,"end":13641.249,"text":"我們的責任跟這個扮演的角色資源的投入方面我們會繼續來配合然後來協助那這部分我們真的很感動其實我在111年好像也是在審那個原教原民學校法的時候那個我也曾經提過我絕對支持只是說"},{"start":13642.486,"end":13671.239,"text":"但如果過了這麼久為什麼還沒有辦法來立法可能也遇到了一些問題他的那個迫切性跟他的框架究竟要怎麼樣可能我看那個四本的那個那個架構裡面好像還是有一些問題剛才趙偉聖說好像被大家K啦其實我聽到的也是說他們可能不認為要那麼剛性所以柔性那柔性這要怎麼柔這可能有待再討論啦我們會跟園民會一起加油啦謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":13672.179,"end":13692.879,"text":"好 謝謝市長我說明一下因為今天大家一直提到說我其實看到我舉個例子假設上一屆的三個委員版本或這一屆的四個委員版本那為什麼我們一直想要等行政院版"},{"start":13694.278,"end":13712.926,"text":"我的意思是說如果我們強行就通過了這四個版本就是等於立法了我不曉得大家對於這四個版本重整討論之後他應該這四個版本很類似那就這樣子上路各位能接受嗎各位理解我的意思嗎"},{"start":13714.702,"end":13729.556,"text":"對 我們也很擔心有時候立法委員們的版本強行入法那是姿勢體大所以我們總是為了這個百年大計我們真的希望大家幫助我們那今天17位"},{"start":13730.953,"end":13746.498,"text":"你們講的我覺得就非常好所以我們會盡速的把它整理好那我們也希望重新的再有一個好的版本我真的希望原民會教育部因為一個是那個法令的主管機關一個是主辦機關"},{"start":13748.278,"end":13768.665,"text":"所以我真的希望我們今天這個公聽會沒有白開那我們也承認也許立法委員們的版本真的很不好但是我們就是希望我們能夠討論出一個真的百年可以帶動我們往前進的一個好的版本來請園民會杜章副主委"},{"start":13773.686,"end":13800.656,"text":"謝謝昭緯能夠召開這個公聽會當然剛剛也有委員說已經開了很多但我是第一次參加所以收穫很多今天總共有4個委員還有13位專家協助有的都是在第一線實際在從事這方面工作的很多的分享讓我很感動當然對我們制度上也有很多的批評跟鼓勵或者是需要指導的部分我想我們都虛心的接受"},{"start":13801.596,"end":13819.178,"text":"那在聆聽的過程我也特別請同仁特別的去記錄每一位委員所發言的重點到底哪一些建議事項我們要注意的我想我們也整理了大概11個重點就讓我跟大家說明一下報告一下說我們大概整理哪些"},{"start":13820.279,"end":13844.873,"text":"第一個是課程的發展應該注意各民族文化的差異性不應該採一致的標準第二個是提供部落參與的機制學校與部落要平等的合作第三個是原住民族學校必須兼顧民族文化與一般學科第四個是建立原住民族學校前應就民族實驗學校進行執行成果的判定找出解決問題的方法"},{"start":13845.393,"end":13867.395,"text":"第五個是調整進入大專院校評測的機制解決學生與家長對升學競爭力的疑義第六個是推動跨領域科別的失陪制度第七個是整合推動12年一貫的民族教育制度第八個是未來的師資足以能力在分級化的方式"},{"start":13868.496,"end":13886.552,"text":"第九個是強調足以作為教學語言的重要性第十個要就資資不足的問題提出有效的解套措施第十一個是未來應該要設置這個民主教育發展基金來永續的推動民主教育"},{"start":13887.333,"end":13914.415,"text":"我想這是我們在路的一些重點當然就是會後以後我們在會裡面會針對這些來再做一些檢討甚至跟教育部針對這些重點來做這些研議那我知道有些可能我們已經在做了有些可能真的也是謝謝你們提點給我們的指導讓我們再有更多的思維對原住民主教育的這一塊應該後續應該怎麼做我們也知道這個法要推動它不容易"},{"start":13915.035,"end":13942.06,"text":"那剛剛委員有提到四個版本之前也有三個版本那剛剛也有我們石教授講的就說這個到底準備好了沒有那我想就原民會來講制定這個原住民主學校法承載著民主自決跟文化復正的遠大的願景也是我們會裡面持續會努力的目標但是該法涉及這個教育的百年大計為了讓這個"},{"start":13943.98,"end":13967.769,"text":"專把電機在穩固的基礎上有相關法制配套與整體環境尚未完備的階段仍應以循序漸進的方式推動為宜唯有在制度成熟、師資充足、資源到位且家長支持度穩定的前提下推動原住民族學校設置方能在文化復正與教育主權之間取得最佳的平衡"},{"start":13968.769,"end":13991.202,"text":"確保原住民族教育的永續發展這是會裡面目前的一個一個政策方向的態度當然回頭以後我們會再做比較細緻的這個研析看看有哪一些目前可以做的應該要加強的要可以改變的我們趕快做不需要透過立法的當然立法的部分"},{"start":13992.342,"end":14020.929,"text":"透過這次的這個公聽會給我們非常多的意見但未來不論是在行政院在推這個法的時候或者是各委員的版本的時候會裡面參與都會可以我們實際上了解的情況在這個法條上的文字上也會做一些建議那最後不管怎麼說未來還有需要努力的空間非常大也謝謝大家給我們這麼多的指教跟鼓勵那我想我們也會跟著教育部"},{"start":14022.029,"end":14030.241,"text":"一同來努力來把這個原住民學校法能夠盡快的完成立法也能夠設置我們的原住民主學校以上說明"},{"start":14034.379,"end":14055.246,"text":"謝謝杜章副主委今天的公聽會要到此告一個段落那我做一個結論今天公聽會邀請17位第一線的教師以及學者專家來就原住民族學校法的立法提供意見"},{"start":14056.286,"end":14080.64,"text":"那我希望在教育部還有園民會這個地方能夠盡速的在一個月內就所有的意見提出一個四位立法委員的修法方向至少要提供給我們那個次長可以嗎次長可以 一直點頭那杜莊副主委可以"},{"start":14082.435,"end":14110.174,"text":"一個月就是就四個立法委員的版本的一個修法意見那我們會根據這個修法意見再來做一個處理那第二個部分就是今天公聽會所有的發言雖然有在公報記錄上面但是我們也會重整一個版本發給今天與會的每一位那最後就是我也希望園民會"},{"start":14111.315,"end":14137.849,"text":"還有教育部是不是可以再召集一次原住民的這些重點學校實驗學校還有學者專家那希望可以再開一次大會就這個原住民族學校因為我還是要再講一遍立法很重要但是知識體大我一直覺得說版本的內容"},{"start":14138.869,"end":14154.705,"text":"三讀拍板你未來要再修法也是很辛苦而且大家要照那個版本去實施我覺得要很慎重所以我還是覺得說我們現在該做的"},{"start":14155.606,"end":14179.228,"text":"更多不需要等立法该做的我们还是要做给这些体制外的学校一条活路也给原住民族实验学校一个方向但是立法这个还是不能忘记我们也希望尽快完成那也许我们会尽速的如果有这样的一个修法意见那版本呢如果大家"},{"start":14179.748,"end":14204.742,"text":"都已經知道說我們要做怎麼樣的修正動議我們是可以來排審的那希望這件事情能夠順利那再次的感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供我們非常多寶貴的意見那今天各位的發言內容跟所有的書面資料我們都會列入記錄刊登公報並且製作成功聽會的報告送交本院全體委員以及所有出席的與會人員做參考"},{"start":14206.283,"end":14215.988,"text":"那在这里呢我们谢谢大家今天很多地方都是暴雨希望大家一路平安谢谢大家散会"},{"start":14229.265,"end":14229.705,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}