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剛剛傳來好像國民黨那邊還在路上他們也給我們一個訊息說好像可以開始那因為時間已經超過5分鐘了那我們就開始啦那感謝這個各黨團來出席這次的協商那我們今天會議協商的主題是有本院台灣民眾黨黨團還有本院委員黃建豪等19人委員林倩琦等21人及委員王宏威等19人分別"},{"start":2142.777,"end":2164.715,"text":"擬據公路法部分條文修正草案的這個案子那上訴法案前經本會期第12至14次的院會決議自交通委員會抽出禁覆二讀然後並按協商那並由台灣民主黨黨團來負責召開協商那現在我們來先介紹在場的委員"},{"start":2167.868,"end":2195.123,"text":"台灣民主黨這邊是陳金榮 陳昭偉陳總昭 陳總昭然後民進黨這邊是民進現在的林委員然後列席的官員這邊我看一下今天出席的有交通部的政府次長陳彥博 陳次長然後再來是交通部公共運輸及經理司的司長胡迪奇"},{"start":2197.557,"end":2222.691,"text":"再來是交通部路政及大安司的司長吳東霖交通部法治處的處長許鴻達交通部高速公路局局長陳文瑞交通部公路局副局長林聰麗交通部運輸研究所主任秘書葉祖鴻內政部急診署交通組科長林鼎君"},{"start":2225.285,"end":2253.701,"text":"內政部警政署警務政 洪俊陽內政部警政署刑事局訪黑科科長 岳吟中金融監督管理委員會保險局專門委員 楊森凱法務部檢察官 楊石宇司法院刑事訴訟局懲戒廳調辦事法官 何孝剛"},{"start":2255.285,"end":2266.348,"text":"好 歡迎大家那因為這個案子是由這個台灣民眾黨這邊提出那我們先請台灣民眾黨的代表來進行提案說明"},{"start":2269.361,"end":2294.349,"text":"好 謝謝主席那台灣民眾黨提出了我們公路法不關條文的一個修正草案那會提出這個公路法的一個修正草案最主要我們是看到我們的拖吊業無法可管"},{"start":2295.629,"end":2307.279,"text":"不管在年初也好還是在過去我們看到很多我們這個民眾因為這個脫掉車輛故障跑毛脫掉然後產生的這個"},{"start":2314.644,"end":2330.492,"text":"被黨員炸頭 還有被坑殺的這樣的一個狀況所以本黨團 本黨回應我們的民意來提及立法要納管我們的車輛拖酒業"},{"start":2331.813,"end":2355.331,"text":"那我想我們回顧一下從今年年初我們就看到了脫掉業者我們所謂的脫掉蟑螂然後趁火打劫向我們的民眾索取天價的一個費用這個案子不只是一件兩件已經變成是一個犯罪集團式的這樣一個趨勢"},{"start":2357.132,"end":2384.813,"text":"我們從新聞媒體看到的報導有2公里要收10萬塊的拖吊費600公尺就要收9萬塊的拖吊費3.7公里原來4千塊然後到時候收款的時候變成4萬5千塊等等這樣的一個狀況那車輛拖救本來就是為了要及時排除交通的障礙"},{"start":2385.914,"end":2406.693,"text":"那目前行程可能是一個集團化的一個一個鏈材的一個工具一個手段那最根究底其實就是我們交通部等相關的行政機關長期的推為責任只是一味的認為"},{"start":2408.354,"end":2415.097,"text":"這個屬於消費的爭議所以認為這個由消保法消保會就可以來處理讓我們的脫調蟑螂有恃無恐那這樣造成的民怨我相信交通部也看到"},{"start":2431.224,"end":2454.18,"text":"那另外目前呢我們看到交通部的態度我剛剛也很遺憾我剛剛看到我們交通部對公路法部分條文修正草案的處理意見報告還是回到他原來一直所主張認為目前的一個脫調的一個爭議脫調的亂象針對脫調蟑螂的處理交通部還是認為"},{"start":2460.845,"end":2482.057,"text":"可以透過小寶法 透過小寶官 透過我們地形化的契約可以來處理那我想 如果地形化的契約可以處理那就不會有現在的一個脫掉亂象也不會有現在的脫掉蟑螂 橫行"},{"start":2484.418,"end":2511.869,"text":"所以我想目前交通部的一個態度我在這邊先做這樣的表達碰到問題是要解決的我們該管理就是要管理不是用小寶寶不是用定型化契約不是推給地方政府就可以來處理我覺得交通部是非常不負責任的再一次的強調"},{"start":2513.149,"end":2527.491,"text":"地形化企業如果可以處理今天我們就不用坐在這裡來協調來討論公路法的部分條文的修正那我們的脫調服務業我們要不要來納管"},{"start":2529.898,"end":2555.434,"text":"那所以我們台灣民眾黨我們強烈的主張只有透過公路法的修正讓車輛拖救業比照計程車或客運業類為特許行業由交通部明訂相關的營業設立管理規範才能夠真正的解決問題也只有當拖掉的車輛我們的車輛拖救業能夠納入特許"},{"start":2559.477,"end":2574.779,"text":"才能夠避免腐爛的收費同時也能透過我們主管機關的監理提升車輛脫後就業的職業的品質所以在本次的一個修法當中"},{"start":2576.101,"end":2593.143,"text":"我們除了要求內管其實我們同步也要求我們政府應該定定在定型化企業裡面印記在及不得記載的事項避免業者濫用企業自由的原則來坑害民眾"},{"start":2594.384,"end":2617.623,"text":"那我想台灣民眾黨的立場非常清楚我們的制度有狀況我們的現況有狀況那來立法補這個破網那全面來終結我們脫調的亂象就是我們台灣民眾黨的一個堅持的主張我們面對脫調不法集團的狠行"},{"start":2618.664,"end":2645.714,"text":"我們的政府我們的交通部絕對不能在消費爭議做一個消極性的處理應該要透過立法的納管強化解密才能徹底斬斷我們不消業者磨取暴力的一個空間重建我們市場秩序也保障我們用路人我們消費人的一個基本權益所以台灣民眾黨"},{"start":2648.414,"end":2667.46,"text":"也期盼面對我們這樣的一個民怨應該能夠不分朝野我們一起共同合作來擬具共識共同支持將車輛拖吊業納入公路法的特許管理從源頭建立起透明"},{"start":2668.5,"end":2695.926,"text":"嚴格的一個職業跟收費的標準大家為我們的國人打造一個愛心又保障的一個道路環境也讓制度能夠回應民意來解決問題也才能夠避免我們脫調的爭論這樣的事件一再的上演以上表達我們台灣民眾黨的一個立場跟意見"},{"start":2698.228,"end":2706.941,"text":"謝謝好 感謝臺灣民眾黨這邊這個親龍總召那因為國民黨好像那個也有提案是不是我們先請那個林倩琪林委員先發言"},{"start":2709.349,"end":2728.349,"text":"謝謝我們主席還有我們府會同仁我們這邊的提案就主要是針對拖吊車的這個部分我想大家應該都有相關的這個經驗就是當我們車子壞掉然後在公路上也好各類的公路那麼拖吊車的這個擅自"},{"start":2729.85,"end":2744.918,"text":"那個 善利的這個收費的名目還有收費的標準不一的這個情形那對於消費者的影響我想這已經造成很多人的一些困擾所以我們針對這個部分在公務法的條文修正裡面也希望我們就現有的"},{"start":2745.938,"end":2764.249,"text":"條文能夠把這個拖吊車的部分給放進去因為先前雖然這個布裡面表達有法可管可是有一些灰色的地帶所以我們這一案呢最主要是希望能夠將拖吊讓車輛的拖救的這個服務從灰色地帶邁向一個制度化的一個管理"},{"start":2765.049,"end":2779.466,"text":"那這整個車輛拖掉的服務涉及道路救援然後事故的排除還有車輛遺址跟民眾財產權的相關利益但是因為長期都存在價格不透明收費標準不一還有"},{"start":2780.126,"end":2796.496,"text":"會被篡立收費的名目那也沒有經過合法的申請經營等等那就有一點這個亂象所以這樣子的服務不是只有單純的民間交易啦而是高度的涉及到道路交通安全跟消費者權益的服務行為"},{"start":2797.196,"end":2824.343,"text":"所以應該有一些基本的法律定義還有專業的管理營運的管理契約的規範最後要設定一些法則我們針對法規第二個修正的重點是要明定車輛拖就業的定義所以本案在第二條增設了第16款來明定車輛拖就業最主要是以"},{"start":2827.125,"end":2838.874,"text":"經營的車輛拖救或車輛移置服務來受到報酬的事業所以基本上這是我們針對這樣一案最主要的一個修正"},{"start":2841.232,"end":2861.455,"text":"首先這個部分就是公路法對車輛拖救業沒有定義明確那導致我們在主管機關在管理稽查還有處罰上也沒有完整的一個法源所以我們在希望能夠有法律的定義之後那後續的核准的管理收費規範及消費保障會相對比較明確"},{"start":2862.256,"end":2889.017,"text":"那最主要是建立一個制度的基礎那把車輛拖救業做一個明定那其他的規範如果沒有明定的話其他規範會很難以落實所以我先就這個部分的重點做一些補充好 感謝中共國民黨這個代表和林千祺委員的他的一個說明接下來是不是請這個民進黨這個林俊憲林委員來發言"},{"start":2891.425,"end":2906.09,"text":"感謝主席也謝謝我們同仁立委同仁大家對於脫調業之前造成的一些消費糾紛大家一起來關心但是你要研究個案"},{"start":2907.524,"end":2932.151,"text":"會造成消費糾紛的要了解到它發生在什麼地方什麼路段現在都是在一般縣市的路段這種滿天寒假拖吊車所謂橫行四處你要注意到它在什麼樣的地方出現它不會出現在高速公路也不會出現在過去的所謂省公路"},{"start":2933.513,"end":2954.216,"text":"因為高速公路跟省公路就中央管轄的這個部分交通部都有明確的訂定拖救的服務契約服務項目計價方式和計價標準現在都管理得很清楚所以也就是時空背景轉換以前會滿天寒假是在高速公路"},{"start":2955.239,"end":2970.354,"text":"在省公路現在為什麼這兩個地方不會有因為交通部開始很明確的管轄所以剛剛委員關心的這些滿天寒假的地方目前會發生的都是在一般的市區道路就縣市管轄的部分"},{"start":2971.604,"end":2994.3,"text":"那這個地方照理講入權是地方政府管轄那麼脫調業如果在這種地方政府管轄的範圍內有出現不當收費那麼這樣的一種狀況我們要如何來解決或者說是不是需要到我們從中央再訂立一個母法因為目前有些縣市也注意到這種狀況"},{"start":2996.041,"end":3019.45,"text":"所以像台北市 我記得好像新北市也有 有的地方政府他已經訂有自治條例 那地方的法律就已經在規範在我的管轄範圍內 在我這個縣市裡面 脫調業者必須遵循哪些事項有的縣市已經有訂定他自己的法律 但當然有的縣市還沒有啦"},{"start":3020.55,"end":3049.656,"text":"所以如果我們今天要來中央要來處理這樣的法會不會有重疊的部分會不會有其實我們要處理的是消費糾紛以及對消費者保障這個部分一定要來動到公路法嗎這個也請大家一起來思考會不會造成管轄還有跟地方的法規跌床架屋"},{"start":3050.956,"end":3068.218,"text":"所以我想以過去中央在處理高工就高工局跟公路局在處理高速公路跟省公路之前整個那種脫掉一個亂象他們因為現在在這個地方混不下去了啦"},{"start":3069.368,"end":3091.423,"text":"所以只要只要轉移啊確實有一些不交業者我們同仁關心的也也確實有有一些不交業者他只要轉到地方地方政府放回去了所以是不是應該要也地方政府也應該要重視這個問題來例如有些縣市他訂的自治法規其實我看也很完整很有效的來規範在他範圍內的脫調業者那這個部分是不是還沒有訂定的業者"},{"start":3098.069,"end":3120.524,"text":"那如何來輔導他們或者中央是不是來提醒建立他們因為拖吊業其實有很多的樣態啦我們現在關心的都是汽車故障你記得來拖車他後面要收集其實拖吊業有很多種啊有專業的有跟我們執法單位配合的拖吊業者也有汽車維修業者"},{"start":3122.425,"end":3143.221,"text":"有搬家業者真的有些金融業他也有附帶拖吊服務啦所以跟我們公路法管轄的客戶運輸業是有所不同的所以現在的拖吊業都是按照一般商業登記他的公司屬監督部管嘛那如果有消費爭議當然就是走消費者保護法"},{"start":3144.161,"end":3152.578,"text":"那如果 剛委員說認為 這樣還不足的話哇 那整個脫調業你必須要把它定義 什麼叫脫調業那要納到 翁路髮來管轄了嗎"},{"start":3154.809,"end":3174.087,"text":"這樣的立法恐怕我看我們目前的幾個版本這一塊好像沒有寫得很清楚沒有寫到這是我一些意見我待會請交通部說明就保障消費者的權利不要讓脫掉亂象再繼續這是大家的共識"},{"start":3175.475,"end":3196.808,"text":"那如果以不修公路法那如何可以達成如果交通部看起來是對於修公路法比較保留嘛那如果這樣的話那如何的可以達成我們同樣的目標就保障消費者不讓有脫掉亂箱的狀況的話如果可以做到那也請交通部待會來做說明謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":3199.309,"end":3209.428,"text":"好 感謝民進黨黨團的林學林委員的代表接下來我們就請公路法公路的中央主管機關交通部是不是可以表示一下意見"},{"start":3215.275,"end":3228.368,"text":"主席還有各位交通部就簡單的就民眾黨團還有相關委員所提的修法我們來提供以下的意見首先我們要說明的是說現行車輛脫掉的"},{"start":3232.071,"end":3250.487,"text":"拖掉跟救援的業務剛才那個鄰居縣民委員大概有提到就是說他其實是很多樣的有跟警方配合的違規拖掉啦有汽車維修業的有金融業的啦所以呢我們以往一直都認為說這是用一般的跟一般的"},{"start":3251.407,"end":3263.84,"text":"這個也就是我們公務法現在的汽車運輸業載客載貨的客運的運輸是不同的而且一般也都採用一般的商業登記在處理那如果他有爭議呢大概都是透過消費爭議的方式來做處理"},{"start":3266.383,"end":3290.746,"text":"那我可以簡單的說明一下現在的消保法裡面以有相關因應的作為那對於有消費正義的時候地方政府他是可以依照第33條規定對相關的脫調正義來進行所謂的調查那調查完了以後可以做所謂必要的一個處置這是在法上既有而且這樣的一個制度也行之多年大家都用這種方式在處理"},{"start":3291.867,"end":3310.283,"text":"第二個是拖吊本身會因應地方道路的特性跟市場需求的不同大概都是由各機關來訂定相關規定來管理剛才林委員特別有提到早期是因為只有在高速公路上所以有高速公路訂定相關的一個拖吊契約的機制在運作"},{"start":3313.365,"end":3330.199,"text":"那最近隨著公路局所有的快速道路很多條的快速道路的建置以後所以公路局在快速道路上他也比照了高速公路也訂定了相關的一個規範也訂定了相關三年單的機制來做管理"},{"start":3331.079,"end":3355.513,"text":"我們的了解剛才特別提到台北市政府大概也有訂定相關的一個質疑那桃園市政府呢大概他也有公佈相關所謂的優良的名單供民眾來選擇使用所以第一個要講的是說其實現行的這個消費爭議裡頭已經有所相關的規範接下來要說明的是說當然因為有相關事件的發生尤其是剛才那個這個民眾黨團那個委員的"},{"start":3359.015,"end":3369.219,"text":"陳委員的說明裡頭確實有這些情形所以呢交通部為了要明確化所謂契約既然是依照消保法那裡頭我們就檢視裡頭即使裡頭有一塊就所謂脫掉業務的服務化的定型化契約應記載不得記載事項"},{"start":3376.441,"end":3388.07,"text":"這樣的一個規定呢似乎現在是沒有這樣的東西所以我們在近期已經就跟相關的業者也討論了那這樣的一個契約的應記載不得記載事項的一個事項的規定我們也會在近期在近數來完成"},{"start":3396.036,"end":3405.24,"text":"修改程序來公告讓各地方政府來使用那地方政府就可以依照這個定型化的契約他自己又去訂定所謂定型化的契約範本來供當地的這個民眾來選擇所以我們要講的是說當然後這些我們盡速把這些該有的契約範本或者定型化契約"},{"start":3416.846,"end":3440.528,"text":"公布了以後那各縣市政府就可以依照消保法第56條之一對於企業要經營要使用定型化契約不依定型化契約來營運的話如果違反事項的話就可以依照消保法由主管機關來責令改正限期不改正可以做相關處罰那如果再次違反的話當然就有加重處罰等等的"},{"start":3440.788,"end":3458.189,"text":"那這些處罰的規定其實民眾黨團或國民黨團相關委員大概也有提到類似的處罰的機制所以那這些類似的處罰機制其實在現行的消防法裡頭就有了所以我們所以簡單的講我們就是認為說這個一般道路"},{"start":3459.57,"end":3479.529,"text":"車輛的服務的業務呢是屬於地方性的事務而且目前與這個汽車運輸業的客戶運特性也不一樣而且目前大概我們也進行了相關的一個定型化因為記載不得記載事項的一個規定所以似乎沒有必要在公路法再申請"},{"start":3481.85,"end":3509.358,"text":"這個車輛拖救業的業別那做相關的一個修法但是我們還是很感佩委員提出相關的意見能夠讓就保護消費者權益能夠提出一些修法的意見 以上好 感謝交通部陳業博陳次長的一個說明那接下來因為在場還有其他的情況像司法院法務部內政部警政署或者經管會不曉得在座的代表有沒有什麼要意見要發表"},{"start":3513.693,"end":3530.923,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就回到這個三個黨團來剛剛有沒有什麼還沒有這個說非常清楚的可以再做一些補充青榮總統要先說好我再做一些補充"},{"start":3532.364,"end":3537.048,"text":"剛剛當然我們軍縣召委、軍縣委員也有提到我在這邊所談的我也在這邊再一次的強調其實我們的一個納管不會有所謂的"},{"start":3549.398,"end":3577.632,"text":"第一場駕舞啦那剛剛從我們次長這邊所談的我深深的就覺得民眾就會很倒楣啊你們所主張的我高速公路沒問題啊我中央管轄的我公路局管轄的你們不會碰到拖掉蟑螂你們不會被看你們是受到我中央公路局所管轄的高速公路所保護的"},{"start":3578.212,"end":3606.108,"text":"所以你們沒問題那在地方你們就推給地方地方這個就由地方政府自己去訂定這個規範還是指引那剛剛次長舉的例子是台北市嘛台北市有指引那台北市的市民有指引沒問題那我請教我們台中市台南市高雄市我們其他的縣市其他的國人同胞"},{"start":3607.128,"end":3625.448,"text":"就會有倒霉就會碰到脫掉的蟑螂就會碰到被坑殺的這樣的一個收費消保法我們的消費正義當然有既有的一個消費正義的一個保障那我在這邊要請教公路局"},{"start":3626.789,"end":3644.762,"text":"不管我們各行各業各個性質的脫調我們所謂的車輛脫就業啦不管他是有哪個以警察局配合的以公部門配合的跟銀行配合的跟我們公務局配合的"},{"start":3646.107,"end":3658.287,"text":"我們現在很單純的它就是一般的商業登記碼來作為它營運的一個基準那我想請教公務局"},{"start":3659.815,"end":3686.44,"text":"既然車輛脫舊業它本身就比較是一個特殊的行業特種的車輛如果它是一般的那你根本在高速公路也不用去製作你們所謂的什麼三連單吧還是什麼樣的一個規則你根本不用管它你高公路級根本就不用管它都不用管它"},{"start":3687.62,"end":3709.14,"text":"那你們在高速公路要哪款?一般道路推給地方政府你覺得這樣合理嗎?你覺得推給地方政府就可以解決嗎?那就如同我講的地方政府有訂定指引的有訂定什麼推薦優良廠商的等等"},{"start":3709.961,"end":3737.777,"text":"那沒有了就倒霉沒有就倒霉那真的大家也了解我相信一般民眾也了解真的碰到這樣的一個脫調的消費爭議你要走消保法要走消費爭議走消保官這個途徑市長你知道嗎需要的時間要多久嗎要民眾自力來救濟嗎"},{"start":3740.225,"end":3756.821,"text":"你有去思考這個問題嗎?今天我們從你們說要去從這個訂定這個地形化契約的印記載跟這個部分跟不記載的一個部分"},{"start":3757.681,"end":3777.037,"text":"我相信這個部分本來我們就要這個也要去做所以我們在我們的修正草案也有提到這個部分也有提到這個部分那我們最重要的現在我們民眾本來就有這樣的問題那你們也明白講了你們有管理的"},{"start":3778.198,"end":3797.287,"text":"基本上可以避開這樣問題沒有管理的退給地方政府那我再一次的強調如果你們今天不把車輛拖就業納管那就是這個現象持續存在那我們真的就不用坐在這裡啊"},{"start":3798.618,"end":3813.893,"text":"人家不要借一家人家就不用借一家那些被砍殺的消費者就自認倒霉自己去找小保官小保官如果協調爭議沒有成功自己再去打官司"},{"start":3815.752,"end":3828.598,"text":"這樣合理嗎一個有作為的政府已經看到我們的現象我們的狀況今天這個修法我們把車輛脫修業納管進來我們對他做一個管理"},{"start":3831.9,"end":3845.593,"text":"我們對他做一個要求這也是在保障我們消費者權益之外也讓這些車輛脫舊業能夠依法合規受管理受規範來從事這個車輛脫掉的一個服務內容啊"},{"start":3853.261,"end":3874.83,"text":"納管不會有比較壞啊今天如果說納管會比較壞納管未了,噢,吃吃不吃,沒辦法生存沒辦法給民眾,好好的收高額就脫掉就沒有了不好好的放什麼下去,他們都沒辦法生存我們就不納管今天交通部我們的態度是這樣嗎我們的態度應該是這樣嗎"},{"start":3881.597,"end":3897.189,"text":"納管會增加你們多少的作業成本會增加你們多少作業程序就算會增加我們很多的作業程序為了保障我們的民眾這不是應該是我們優惠的政府要做的嗎單純一個納管 單純一個管理我想今天交通部"},{"start":3908.14,"end":3934.516,"text":"你們要擔當啊不要怕不要把問題推開給地方政府我再重複一次如果你認為從中可以不用管那你告訴公務局有膽子就不要管啊合大你不要管啊對吧你逆向思考回來啊要能夠從全國統一那管對業者有規範"},{"start":3937.447,"end":3942.209,"text":"讓民眾有保障那不是我們應該交通部本身就要做的嗎我在這裡就做這樣的一個補充好 這個國民黨跟民進黨等人有其他意見嗎那好 兩位理委是 千金委員先好了好 謝謝主席那我們就剛才聽到這個交通部這邊的一個回應"},{"start":3964.096,"end":3979.071,"text":"那似乎你們在我們要修的這個第一項把這個車輛拖救業納管進來的一個困難是因為你們相關的單位都也有這樣子的一個合作"},{"start":3979.711,"end":4007.724,"text":"那但是我們在這邊把車輛脫舊業也定義得非常清楚就是脫舊車營運經營車輛脫舊或車輛一致服務而受報酬之事業那你們剛才談到的就是說中央跟地方那兩套的制度你們是怕中央訂定了之後呢對地方政府有一些衝擊那你們提出來的解決方式是說我們從這個消保法裡面去做一個處理那我這邊也呼應一下剛才我們"},{"start":4009.005,"end":4027.74,"text":"成遠這邊的一個補充啦也就是那這不是變成每一個個案它都會產生都會有不同結果的可能性嗎那但是這樣一個車輛的這個脫救服務不是只有中央政府地方會發生而已它基本上一致嘛"},{"start":4028.721,"end":4056.108,"text":"是一致的這個脫臼服務基本上都是一致的這個樣態雖然會有不同的這個區塊但是從中央訂定一個主要的法規然後讓大家依照這樣一個法規去走把它納入進來納管那如果有不同的樣態它其實我們最主要是要解決這樣一個沒有法源依據而產生的一些定義不明確而產生的一些紛爭嘛"},{"start":4057.348,"end":4083.043,"text":"那你們如果都把它丟回到所謂的地方政府然後又丟回到這個消保法你們似乎是不是把這樣一個事情看得太狹隘了所以我們如果把它納管進來那在納管後面的一些這個授權其實是可以分級去處理的所以我們如果就針對要解決這樣一個問題那中央擔當起來去做一個法源的這個制定然後再讓各級"},{"start":4084.264,"end":4108.119,"text":"去做不同層次的一個處理這個有那麼大的困難嗎我這邊先做一個補充跟疑問好 感謝李委員的說明那是不是請林區議員 李委員來發表好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位同仁基本上我們當然中央地方不要說互推責任就是應該要互相合作來解決這個脫調的亂象"},{"start":4110.785,"end":4140.09,"text":"有時候你在地方的比如說你在台中市的一條巷子發生脫調業者亂喊價那你說這樣的行為規範也要中央有法律來定嗎我很質疑因為第57條之後是這次修法重點我看各黨團主要都是在修這個部分但第57條之後你說要來定定的營業範圍營業監督費用收取等等其實最重要的是那個費用收取"},{"start":4141.57,"end":4164.552,"text":"那為什麼說要中央地方合作因為你城鄉有不同環境你農業區域跟都會地區當然有所不同比如說你要拖掉一公里收多少錢中央有農業電台北市一公里可以收多少雲林縣政府你一公里可以收多少我們不可能幫地方訂嘛"},{"start":4165.609,"end":4185.766,"text":"那這個一定是像這個最重要的收費或者範圍或者說當然他對對對業者的管理這個一定要還是回歸地方所以我我是把它定義為中央地方合作了好那如果你你中央可以定如果我們真的要修法那一定是也是定一個原則性的問題"},{"start":4187.062,"end":4214.361,"text":"到最後地方還是必須把明確的尤其像例如像我舉的就是費用收費還有對業者的管理這脫掉業者的為什麼會有推薦就好像旅館我們有推薦好的旅館各行很多行業我們政府都有一個認定一個等級的認定就是希望給消費者做一個選擇也鼓勵業者能夠自我提升"},{"start":4215.171,"end":4233.306,"text":"那這些一定是地方才可以比較容易掌握到說哪些業者在他們地方是完全合法申請營業登記而且他的經營也沒有違規等等這些地方政府才會了解所以我是覺得還是中央地方合作的這個概念"},{"start":4234.878,"end":4245.11,"text":"那如果你交通部認為不需要不需要收費我是覺得你還是必須跟提案修法的黨團代表講清楚"},{"start":4246.69,"end":4273.57,"text":"那你在中央地方合作這個部分比如說有些地方這種他現在沒有訂為什麼沒有訂那你有沒有辦法說請各縣市政府大家來重視這個脫調亂象那你該訂出來的那有沒有辦法就請他們訂出來如果你真的不願意不願意中央修法的話那其實委員關心的是保護消費者權利嘛"},{"start":4274.523,"end":4298.479,"text":"那我是覺得你剛剛的說明對這一塊啊我是覺得講的還不是很清楚啦講的還不夠力啦不然這個我們像人家這樣沒辦法接受啦好不好我講你只要可以達到保衛對消費者我們也沒什麼意見嘛只是如果可以達到是不是要請交通部再補充說明一下好 感謝李委交通部需要進行進一步的說明"},{"start":4302.898,"end":4319.02,"text":"我想交通部再進一步說明也謝謝剛才陳委員特別提到納管我也是蠻認同剛才林俊憲林委員特別提到的其實是中央地方一起合作"},{"start":4319.46,"end":4336.593,"text":"那我想要表達的就是說其實就是因為在我們交通部管轄的道路上譬如說像剛才講高速公路或是快速道路上因為我們發現有這些問題所以我們就是有訂定相關的一個須知或相關的一個規範考核的機制"},{"start":4338.635,"end":4367.24,"text":"把這些車這些在這上面拖掉的這個這個業者我們予以納管所以所以我們想要講的就是說不是說現在沒有訂定這個相關的這個在公路法訂定相關的規範呢就沒辦法納管不是這樣子啦就是說其實依照現行的相關的規範就可以納管那地方政府呢其實也是可以剛才特別提到基於地方這個道路的特性他其實也是可以比照或是"},{"start":4368.421,"end":4384.293,"text":"或是是援引看怎麼樣我們的相關的規範或須知規定他也可以去訂定相關的一個辦法來納管所以原則上我們要強調的說現行的這個機制上或者是消保法的機制上就可以把這些脫調業者予以納管"},{"start":4387.675,"end":4400.652,"text":"所以是沒有問題的那第二個部分是當然交通部因為對於高速公路或是公路上快速道路上有關拖吊車服務納管的一個機制因為也是很多年的這個經驗的累積"},{"start":4402.794,"end":4431.556,"text":"所以剛才林委員特別提到說來協助地方政府來訂定相關的一個這個納管的指引或者是規定這部分我們可以來做其實我們現在在做的定型化契約應記載不得記載事項其實就是朝那樣方向來做就是在這裡頭要訂定哪些哪些應該怎麼規範然後完了以後我們剛剛也有說明地方政府就可以依照這個再去訂定定型化契約"},{"start":4432.637,"end":4453.777,"text":"那透過這種方式他就可以來納管那如果說這個還有所不足的話我想我們交通部願意再站出來再跟各地方政府大家共同來努力一下我們可以來跟他們說明一下有這樣的一個規定然後他們是可以怎麼樣來定來做這樣的一個把這樣拖掉業務把它健全化運納管 以上"},{"start":4455.131,"end":4474.195,"text":"好 謝謝次長那因為這次的休任挑戰大概有五條啦大家可以看到手邊的資料那我們就接下來我們就進入這個主條的部分那我們先看第二條啦第二條就是基本上我想各個版本大概都是增加那個車廂拖就業不曉得三兩黨團這邊有沒有辦法達到共識因為"},{"start":4478.776,"end":4497.062,"text":"主席我現在發現一個問題就現在的版本就是民眾黨團還有我們林倩儀委員的版本我們現在修要把這個脫掉院納管但是大家都從57條之後開始修了"},{"start":4500.154,"end":4527.097,"text":"第二條從第二條開始說第二條所以我們現在在第二條第二條大概他們就是把那個所謂的拖就業把它你第二條第二條你就跳到我是七條之二啦那其實我們公路法納管的業別是正面表列的明文寫得很清楚喔這個在公路法第34條公路法第34條它規範的就是公路汽車運輸就是說在我們本法所管轄的行業啦"},{"start":4528.345,"end":4555.888,"text":"有公路汽車客運業第二市區汽車客運業抱歉我念一下第三遊覽車客運業第四計程車啦第五小客車租賃業小貨車租賃業汽車貨運業第八就是你他是一條一條寫的啦包括第九就是汽車貨櫃貨運業但他裡面並沒有所謂我們今天要講的這個拖吊業啦所以其實如果你34條沒有修你只修我們今天修的這幾條"},{"start":4558.592,"end":4582.526,"text":"你這樣這樣有完整嗎你這樣怎麼白修的啦你要怎麼給修的啊所以是 事務主席我建議啦來 我也請大家建議一下啦如果我們真的要修 要來制定 要把拖掉的納管可以啦"},{"start":4583.629,"end":4608.343,"text":"但是交通部你應該要你應該要就各委員 現在民眾黨還有委員體的版本你應該也提出你的你認為應該要怎麼做啊不然大家要收三六四條我們今天收這麼多要怎麼做通過也沒有用啊因為他不在我們公路法管轄的業別裡面啊"},{"start":4610.58,"end":4627.589,"text":"所以本席是不是提議交通部應該也要提自己的既然兩黨 藍白兩黨都有這樣要修的意見那交通部如果你也提出這個版本一起來比照討論我認為這樣會比較完整如果這個應該沒有很急迫的話我們下一次再開一個協調會來討論你應該把你那個申請信條要把它納進來"},{"start":4641.57,"end":4668.7,"text":"要不然你怎麼修主席上是我的意見好 謝謝杜偉因為交通部這邊針對第二條的意見是建議不予修正你們這邊的意見是這樣那看起來剛剛據說這邊民進黨好像也有意見這條是不是如果我不知道如果沒有公示我們是不是就保留我的意見是你沒有修34條我們今天討論這件事都不是什麼意義"},{"start":4673.476,"end":4694.296,"text":"對不對所以所以我建議你應該建議你請教我提一個參佐藍白現在的條文但你要把34條的修正修正納進拖吊業這樣你想法有什麼意思"},{"start":4695.737,"end":4709.524,"text":"是 感謝李委員因為現在我們討論就是這五條如果大家沒有辦法達到目前大概幾個版本都是增加了第十六款它的拖就業"},{"start":4712.783,"end":4721.429,"text":"主持人 主席我們在第二條直接就把車輛拖車業給它增加進來其實就剛剛軍宣委員講的34條它是汽車營運客運業等等的一個定義"},{"start":4732.438,"end":4746.925,"text":"那整個車輛車就業如果我們在例如說這邊人類第16款其實就把它很明確的來定義了來界定了"},{"start":4747.825,"end":4772.592,"text":"那它的薪酬當然跟我們剛剛經濟委員所講的公務法34條它是不一樣的一個薪酬那最重要的最重要的所以我們在修法這邊我們才新增第二條的第16款我們才新增第二條的第16款也就是要來處理這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4775.08,"end":4799.77,"text":"好 因為我剛剛說了那個民進黨這邊區縣委員好像有一些意見我們這條是沒有跟我說我們是不是就把它保留好了好 這樣好了啦主席我的意見是說如果假設好 我們這些今天大家都送到院會去表決了假設都按照修法修過了 表決了 院院會也表決通過但是"},{"start":4800.948,"end":4828.693,"text":"剛青榮講的他那個是名詞的定義不是納管的業別你34條沒有修你今天我們今天討論這些的不不意義啊就算表決通過到時候你執行起來你法律法律見解會有問題啦所以我感覺應該應該你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要你要"},{"start":4829.918,"end":4858.27,"text":"所以交通部可以發表一下我跟各位委員們做一個說明這也就是我一開始的時候有特別提到說公路法裡頭並沒有就是它的本質其實跟汽車運輸業是沒有相關的不是在這裡面所以我們可以看到第三章也就是剛才林委員特別提到公路運輸而且是所有公路法所有業別的管理大概都是在這第三章裡頭有"},{"start":4859.15,"end":4871.84,"text":"然後有才會有所謂的前面的名詞定義 汽車運輸業那現在在這個第三章裡面並沒有相關的所以我們也是認為說這個可能回去就法治面我們可能要檢討一下"},{"start":4878.362,"end":4899.766,"text":"主席是這樣齁 那如果就交通部這樣子的講法那在我們這些提出來我們每一個委員所提出來的法案那可行不可行你們應該就整體來做一個考量而不是給予我們建議不予修正然後呢我們就還發現後面的一些問題我們如果每一件事情都我們提出來的"},{"start":4900.766,"end":4929.344,"text":"法案或是我們要修正的東西你們說因為其他東西沒有那這次這個沒有下次那個沒有你們是不是有點消極作為啊就是我們都已經提出這樣的意見那你們如果覺得某一些東西可能是在執行上會有困難那你是不是應該執行上的這個困難也應該做相關更細節的一個處理那我們在協商的時候你們是不是可以提出一個可行的方案而不是我們提出來的你如果覺得不是很完整的部分那"},{"start":4929.924,"end":4947.792,"text":"到底要怎麼樣可以比較完整我們提出來都是民眾的所遇到的這個困難而不是說只有不予修正當我們正在討論的時候因為這個不可行那個沒有定義所以民眾的問題永遠都在你們原有既有的法規上沒有辦法解決嘛那其次我剛才聽起來也就是說"},{"start":4949.893,"end":4976.758,"text":"似乎你們對於你們主管的東西就是你們的範圍有絕對的這個主導性的時候你們才會訂定相關的這個內容可是如果需要商量你們似乎我們中央也沒有擔負起中央給予地方一個法源來繼續再談這樣聽起來你們未來在執行上是不是跟地方再討論再討論那地方如果沒有這樣一個中央的法源依據那就會變成有的地方可以訂有的地方沒有訂"},{"start":4977.779,"end":4992.141,"text":"執行起來還是又回到老路就是有定的可能有法源的依據跟支持那沒定的或許他有實質的困難那中央不能單負起這樣一個擔當讓地方或全國有一致的法規來做支持跟處理嗎"},{"start":4994.868,"end":4995.029,"text":"主席"},{"start":5010.33,"end":5032.742,"text":"我想今天會發生這個可能在法條上前後有一些不是很完備啦照我看起來是這樣我覺得還有一個原因啦是因為這個法我們沒有在委員會審查我們現在是直接禁覆二讀所以今天才會看到問題啊如果你有在委員會審查也許就可以有時間去發現如果有參與審查"},{"start":5034.244,"end":5054.04,"text":"原來這個法帶交通委員會看到我可能就會提出一些質疑來那因為是抽出來禁錄惡毒所以才會今天來這邊協商嘛正好我提一個建議啦如果大家都覺得要中央一些納管那交通部如果你"},{"start":5055.768,"end":5074.174,"text":"其實面對這種狀況大家都大概多數上都希望你納管那你應該提出你未來準備有納管你也不能沒有意見吧你也不會沒有意見啦所以我就主要建議啦如果要讓這個法更完備"},{"start":5075.421,"end":5093.534,"text":"第一個34條應該要修啦那第二個你未來要怎麼管理57條之二我也請交通部提一個也提一個版本那我們下次協商的時候再並案來跟其他的版本來討論那一樣也是討論往中央來管理那往這個方向來"},{"start":5097.417,"end":5122.876,"text":"我們今天還是針對這五條進行協商如果大家今天沒有共識的話我們就是基本上就是保留啦然後看看未來要不要交通部這邊要不要提案子然後平安來討論那就要看這個接下來啦齁我們送出去之後交通部的一個他們的一個態度這樣子齁跟大家說明所以我們第二條是不是要先保留保留齁好那我們第二條先保留"},{"start":5124.226,"end":5141.138,"text":"然後再來我們進到57條之後大概就是一些廢紙營業執照這樣子的一個相關的概念看起來交通部這邊也是不予修正的一個建議不曉得商工黨團有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":5142.098,"end":5159.887,"text":"主席 民進黨這邊意見我們全部都保留啦因為我認為你這邊宣法沒有用你白修就了你三四條沒宣法你事實上都沒了一篇啦都沒辦法來做啦好不好感謝這個居修委員因為這個要三黨要達到共識那如果民進黨"},{"start":5161.567,"end":5181.763,"text":"這個黨團的意見是基本上 我們現在就是五條我唸一下 就是第二條57條之二 還有77條還有78條之一 還有81條我們應該有五條那看起來這個 剛剛局長委員這邊說民進黨都有一些意見所以我們是不是這五條都能夠把它保留下來 好不好"},{"start":5183.175,"end":5195.341,"text":"在座當然應該沒有問題所以接下來我們就依照立法院職權刑事法我們送院回來進行下一步的處理在座有沒有什麼未經的事項要表達"},{"start":5197.416,"end":5216.546,"text":"我想在青龍鴨主題案的民眾黨團你不考量一下嗎就請他 請交通部這樣我們就一次把它弄完整嘛你現在急著去議員會表決有什麼意義呢那請你們黨團回去考量一下如果你沒有把拖吊業納入公路法的管轄範圍 你想要有什麼方法"},{"start":5219.548,"end":5221.833,"text":"我們在五十七條之後其實就可以來處理我們"},{"start":5229.912,"end":5249.069,"text":"我們要解決拖吊亂箱的這個問題那當然軍艦委員很用心他提出了包括我們公共法第34條的整個所謂氣球運輸業者這些的一個正面表列整個通通給他涵蓋進來"},{"start":5250.51,"end":5275.87,"text":"那我相信這樣是讓整個修法會更加的完備但是有沒有納進來並不影響我們對脫掉的一個亂象的一個立法修法的一個整個一個解決我們其實透過這五條的一個修正提案其實就可以完整的解決這個脫掉亂象"},{"start":5278.972,"end":5294.232,"text":"目前的一個情況所以我在這裡做這一個補充好 那我宣告一下今天的結論因為今天本日草野黨團的協商會議大家沒有共識那我們就到這邊宣布散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}