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那個議事錄等一下再來做確認我們接著來介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員我們先介紹在場的委員第一名 這是七十八十六來擺 從四五點就來了來 最專業 最用心的成招之委員 愛咖啡婆來"},{"start":1623.954,"end":1636.222,"text":"接著介紹我們應邀列席的官員我為考試院秘書長劉建新秘書長全序部施能傑施部長還有政務次長全序部政務次長 懷序次長其他就請參閱"},{"start":1649.298,"end":1669.306,"text":"真的沒有在逐一做介紹未及介紹的列席代表請參議員名單不在逐一來做介紹並列入公報記錄了那本次的會議兩天一次會我們首日的議程討論事項審查考試院函請審議公務人員考計法修正草案我們今天請做詢答"},{"start":1673.78,"end":1683.687,"text":"我們現在來進行機關代表的報告請每一位發言的時間三分鐘左右來請有請考試院秘書長劉建新秘書長"},{"start":1688.375,"end":1704.593,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安很感謝貴委員會今天排審公務員考記法修正草案並且也很榮幸的應邀列席來做相關的報告考記制度對用人機關來講它應該是一個去掌握施政效能"},{"start":1705.294,"end":1732.09,"text":"和管理的工具但是對每一位公務同仁來講它又牽涉到個人的權益跟職涯的發展所以從這兩種不同的角度跟立場會對考機制度有不同的期待跟觀點也因此這個制度的確很容易引起各種爭論各種討論所以也相信說這也就是本院歷來有五度把考機法送到立法院審查都沒有能夠完成立法程序的主要原因"},{"start":1732.97,"end":1754.395,"text":"那這一次修法呢 權序部這邊是經過了一個很廣泛徵求各界意見的程序那也因此考試院最後送來立法院的法案應該是相當的務實跟合理那首先就是我們讓公務人員的工作考機能夠真正的以他實際工作表現來作為考量但同時我們也兼顧了違反服務紀律的一個必要的服務懲處"},{"start":1755.575,"end":1774.831,"text":"那其實就是大家最關心的就是目前實務上設定甲等比例上限這樣的一個實務做法呢它雖然有它制度上面的一個意義但是這一次的修法應該說它雖然有它實務上的意義但是確實也導致了我們同仁心中可能會有一些不平或不一樣的意見"},{"start":1775.732,"end":1798.068,"text":"那主管在評比的時候呢也的確有選擇的困難那這一次修法我們就簡化了考積等次我們用良好來代替現行的甲乙等之分同時設置了一個最高等次優秀也提升了這個相關的獎金那對於評比兩端就是優秀跟未達良好這兩個等次呢也規定要有設定具體的試油來作為標準"},{"start":1799.329,"end":1822.92,"text":"那這樣的改變我想除了反映我們一般公務同仁的一個意見普遍的期待之外也維持了烤雞跟生鮮植芽之間的一個有效的連結而且能夠做到實質的獎優泰烈那希望藉由本次的修正建立一個合一的烤雞制度那除了能夠提升政府的施政效能跟服務品質之外也能夠為公務同仁打造一個良善的職場環境以上報告敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":1825.963,"end":1827.625,"text":"好 謝謝劉秘書長 接下來請全序部部長施能傑施部長來做報告"},{"start":1837.949,"end":1865.288,"text":"主席各位委員大家早很榮幸我們本部份考試院提出考機法的一個修正案也感謝這個委員會排審我大概今天先談一個大致上為什麼修這個法的一個狀況跟各位報告這個40年前的這個法剛定事實上就是40年前的7月份剛定經過這40年這個法幾乎架構沒什麼改變過可是這40年期間台灣變化非常大"},{"start":1866.248,"end":1880.959,"text":"這變化包括公務體系同仁的工作負擔還有責任複雜程度各式各樣的變化同樣台灣的社會對公務人員的角色跟行為期待有各式各樣的期待"},{"start":1881.699,"end":1911.059,"text":"所以我想部裡面基本上覺得應該重新思考什麼是好的考機法所以我們就做了一個很大膽的一個也徵詢很多的一個意見然後提出了這個新的幾乎是全文修正的一個法案這個全文修正裡面最重要我們想要主要的目標是我們未來的整個考機會以實際的工作表現為主要評量的基礎然後我們希望能夠肯定平時非常盡責辛苦的工作表現"},{"start":1911.799,"end":1940.491,"text":"然後也非常鼓勵積極優秀的工作表現者然後能夠落實對於那個表現欠佳能夠給予協助跟改善的一個機會最後我們也因應社會讓他期待對於公務同仁的行為服務行為的紀律會提供更多的要求所以在這個基礎下我們最重要的改變是剛好秘書長也提過我們認為把烤雞等次改為三個等次這是比較能夠符合食物運作也能夠"},{"start":1942.272,"end":1964.647,"text":"讓辛苦的工作同仁都能夠得到這個兩毫以上的這個考積那如果真的一個最重要的考積就是要如果他真的有表現不佳的情況我們有一個法定的室友那機關就可以根據這個來做評量那對於那個特別特別工作優秀有一個會有一個法定的室友也根據這個來做評估我想未來這個方式的運作就會相對來講"},{"start":1966.668,"end":1978.594,"text":"對公務同仁或者是機關運作都是好的一個事情那因此呢我們也決定把獎金也提高比方說只要是良好以上我們本來以前呢已等只有0.5個月我們現在只有一個月那優秀我們也會從"},{"start":1979.929,"end":1996.446,"text":"本來家等一個月提高到1.3個月這基本上就是我們覺得公務同仁其實在這40年期間的工作狀況其實是已經越來越複雜所以只要他表現很好我們都覺得應該可以肯定那這是這個修法很重要的一個部分那當然"},{"start":1997.307,"end":2021.421,"text":"另外一個部分我們對於公務同仁服務紀律的一個要求也會越來越嚴格因為社會上期待公務同仁除了要把工作做法以外平時有一些行為是不可以違法或違私的行為是不可以觸犯所以我們採取分層次的一個方式如果你有不同的一個行為我們就賦予機關更多的工具可以來因應根據符合比例原則來因應這些不同的一個需求"},{"start":2021.761,"end":2049.333,"text":"那當然對於如果因此受到嚴重的這個不利處分的一個同仁我們會給予他應該有的所有的保障程序的一個踐行這也是兼顧呢機關需要社會期待跟公務同仁權利的一個保障我想這大概是主要是這個法律呢大概整個大的方向是往長這邊在走那我想比較細節的部分呢我想我們在書面報告裡面有提出那進入到註條審查的時候如果有我們會再做一些說明以上報告"},{"start":2054.856,"end":2060.8,"text":"好 謝謝 機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄還有沒有口頭的補充報告那沒有的話 機關代表就報告完畢了相關的書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄現在開始我們來進行詢問那本會委員詢問時間"},{"start":2083.397,"end":2085.318,"text":"謝謝主席 有請全序部部長請全序部司部長"},{"start":2115.668,"end":2132.922,"text":"部長本席跟朝野多位立委都一直都在多次質詢的時候都有非常強烈的呼籲公務體系就是過去比較僵化的這所謂的75%的天花板限制要隔除要破除然後也要終結每年都是新人輪流拿椅這樣的潛規則那這次版本裡面確實有看到了改變這是本席給予肯定"},{"start":2140.268,"end":2160.896,"text":"但是制度要改一定要改到讓基層有感那現在是包含這個台灣公務革新力量聯盟我下面簡稱公革力以及這個書記官公會他們有一些心聲我希望部長能夠試著傾聽一下聆聽一下他們的心聲就是第一個以往最高的這個最讓基層公務員詬病就是大家輪流拿椅然後"},{"start":2163.157,"end":2190.216,"text":"高層拿假的比率確實比較高那現在剛剛您也報告好改成剛剛報告是優秀良好跟未打良好不過基層公務員還是會擔心會不會大家輪流拿那個所謂的這個良好呢所以請問全序部你如何就是杜絕這樣的事情發生我跟委員報告我想這整個過程我們也真的也做網路上各式各樣的一個甄選那以後沒有什麼輪流良好因為新的架構下任何未來打烤機"},{"start":2192.312,"end":2206.567,"text":"如果是未達良好就有一個條件就是你要符合什麼一個條件被認定才叫未達良好那過去完全沒有嗎過去基本上這次我們就在條件上講得更多更細緻過去還是有嘛過去有一些比較籠統的一些規範"},{"start":2208.736,"end":2231.596,"text":"優秀我們未來會定具體的什麼才可以優秀那意思就是說如果你不符合這兩邊就是良好所以應該沒有什麼輪流良好這個事情部長我想我是必須告訴您說這個基層公務員他們還是會擔心會有一些操作的空間我完全理解就是說這個東西我也是謝謝委員給我在這個答詢的過程讓大家能夠放這個心"},{"start":2232.817,"end":2248.17,"text":"那制度改革一定要有足夠的向上的誘因那錢更要花在刀口上這個工個力聯盟他們有建議全區部是不是可以考慮破除人事費各項目的分離迷思因為現在很多政府機關他們會去辦理教育訓練文康活動還有甚至這個員工協助方案他們叫EAP"},{"start":2253.214,"end":2281.805,"text":"那當然美其名美其意他是關懷員工可是基層的同仁普遍認為這些活動是流於形式沒有實質的鼓勵效果所以我想請教這個權序部可不可能研議將這些比較形式化的比較流於沒有實質效果實質激勵效果的這個活動經費作為獎金之用好嗎我的意思就是說把預算轉為化為實質的獎勵這是真正的體恤同仁提升士氣這樣子方向可以考慮嗎"},{"start":2283.245,"end":2301.102,"text":"我覺得我們這個方向的建議是蠻有趣的一個方向甚至也應該是想想但是雖然我們現在都在人事費下面有各式各樣的系的那個科別嘛那至於這個事情有涉及到福利事項這些不同的事那到底適不適合整併這個全者不在"},{"start":2301.662,"end":2318.171,"text":"基本上不在全區部但是是譬如說總處人事總處跟考試那時候我們都可以一起來討論說這個事情你們可以就是了解總額的人事費一下我理解啦想拔刺的做做看嘛其實這也是來自公國立的一個建議啦部長今年三月公國立我也跟委員報告一下其實我們通過一個紀律辦法"},{"start":2319.412,"end":2333.705,"text":"我們另外一個通過一個紀律解決是這一次法律裡面授權的紀律辦法裡面就給機關鼓勵機關對公務同仁即使有什麼好表現都應該給予即時的紀律那個就有獎金也有其他的一個紀律方式已經又補了一個比較實質獎勵的辦法對 紀律那個已經實施了"},{"start":2337.488,"end":2359.756,"text":"那部長 因為今年三月工個力粉專上有一篇投稿文我覺得這個就可以 部長可能了解一下他說烤雞修法到底是糖醫還是毒藥嘛你剛剛也再次證明說四十年沒有辦法去修法那大家都期待 期待當中就會擔憂嘛就靜香情怯那種感覺 好要改了要改了裡面有一段話我想說請你參考"},{"start":2360.836,"end":2381.503,"text":"他說這個話叫官場的用語叫做務實可行那務實可行常常代表說要給機關這個長官保留彈性所以如果你沒有明文的限制不好意思長官跟核心的幕僚最多只能拿多少比率的獎勵這是他們的建議那這次修法恐怕變成合法的您看看他的文章就是原來他的文章這樣"},{"start":2382.063,"end":2406.57,"text":"恐怕變成合法的高翻自肥的分贓大會請問部長這次烤雞修法裡面有沒有防止高官自肥條款呢我沒有看到啦我找不到這類似的那請部長視覺好嗎就是有沒有這樣的想法我們確實現在的法條裡面沒有就像現在法條也沒有現行的制度也沒有去談這個事情不過這個是老實說我跟委員報告說功課利益的臉書大概都有"},{"start":2407.91,"end":2431.617,"text":"都有follow啦那我們也會自己判斷說有些事情在實務上的可行程度然後做必要的一個修正那這個事情確實我知道有人在疑慮這個事但是我先講前提是未來即使你要列優秀你一定要符合那個具體的條件這未來在施行細則裡面會明定所以如果你不符合的話不管你是高官或者是一般的同仁就是不可以嘛"},{"start":2432.057,"end":2436.181,"text":"我想這很核實務實公告之後也會讓大家再來做檢驗未來我們在事情細則裡面可能會針對某一些這些意見再做一些交換意見討論其實你也大家都看到了過去公務機關屢屢發生霸凌下屬的問題你就知道有人的地方"},{"start":2449.815,"end":2478.21,"text":"就會如果沒有制度把關就會出現就是沒有真正的公平這個都不能夠否認所以剛剛部長您提到的這些做法我想我會繼續再了解那你們公告那些細則之後我想也要讓這個基層有機會去發表他們的意見那接下來本席要代替這個書記官工會詢問部長六月中書記官工會的那個粉專發布的考積法修法有六項主張目的是為了避免考積法往修二的方向走請問部長你有沒有看到"},{"start":2480.452,"end":2485.597,"text":"這個我印象是我們同樣有大概看過因為他提了六點但有些我先拿其中的幾項就教部長過去考積永遠是向對下的單向平和那書記官公會主張就是考積法也應該開放屬下對長官雙向表達主管是否適任意見的"},{"start":2499.692,"end":2524.27,"text":"適任他的這個意見的想法事實上很多民間的企業都採取雙向考核允許基層也能夠表達他對這個主管的看法我個人在1990年我就擔任醫院的一級主管我當時就考採取那個360度的考核後來整個醫院都採納了那多年來你知道大學師生也有一些護貧制度嘛其實權敘部願不願意研議這種做法就是至少建立雙向的一個這個"},{"start":2525.931,"end":2541.425,"text":"表達機制啦這個百分比我們可以討論它未必是1比1但是這個百分比可以討論但是你願不願意思考這樣他們的建議方向就只有長官平和下屬嘛下屬不能也有意見嗎各位委員報其實我們這一次在修法裡面就有一個條文"},{"start":2542.546,"end":2562.811,"text":"就寫了 就是說機關德採多元 平壤的一個方式來收集資金那多元有點模糊啦這個實務上我們要給機關一個談心我想委員也在行政部門多少也了解但是我剛剛講的就是我們要鼓勵人來做這個事情您這企業現在普遍的做法 我知道好不好 秦副長你要參佐另外這個考機委員會還是多數還是長官說了算那數據官公會有主張考機委員會的組成當然委員跟指定委員不要超過全體總額的半數也就是票選委員"},{"start":2569.113,"end":2590.62,"text":"他們基層必須過半打破這個一言堂才能比較回歸到公平透明那部長您同不同意說這個工會他們希望基層票選委員是過半的在考試委員會您同意嗎我現在沒有辦法跟委員決定Yes No但是我知道這個意見我那是所細節的部分我還是麻煩你回去討論一下過去考試法通過或母法通過記得40年沒改我們就想辦法跟上時代"},{"start":2597.902,"end":2601.524,"text":"那既然有票選要真正的民主所以工會也指出考機委員會的這個票選要有義務在法定期間公告參選時間投票時間投票期間還有祕密吳紀民投票而且他們也提到機關或主管機關不得暗示或明示這個推薦人選你看他連這個名詞都講出來了主管明示暗示推薦人選他們都提出建議了可見他們過去是有感覺到啦"},{"start":2622.955,"end":2648.353,"text":"有感覺到背後是有黑手介入那詮釋部可不可以在這個方面做一些規範就是讓他們很清楚就既然你有票選那你要回去研議到底這個組成既然有票選的話有票選機制是不是讓他們都很清楚知道聽說現在都放在內網嗎你根本就每個辦公室都應該貼一張嗎就是讓大家知道說我現在可以票選了然後這些種種的一些注意事項還有不得暗示這個人選這樣可以嗎"},{"start":2649.634,"end":2663.258,"text":"我想每一個個案 每一個機關的運作方不過這些意見我們都會聽到啦這個是沒有不合理嘛 這種期待還有另外幾座資深優秀的基層同仁他們零供奉已經到最高縫級那書記官認為說零供奉最高縫級應該維持兩個月的考級獎金啦剛剛你好像有報告到但是我是再請你們再確認一次這個沒有改變 這個沒有改變但是你那麼具體用白紙黑字"},{"start":2674.921,"end":2702.235,"text":"來明文規定沒有 那法條裡面就是這樣子法條有具體的就是說如果你是無疾可進的就是如果你是這個考我也是趁這個機會讓部長公開再確認一次啦部長 人事長這個還有人事長也就是了解一下考機法要修正其實朝野都有共識要往這個進步方向走如果你只改了半套但是基層擔心的這個黑箱考核跟實質機率不足如果沒有滿足這個話那就40年要改善我們會"},{"start":2704.036,"end":2720.529,"text":"所以剛剛我提到那幾點那個部長你也沒有完全反對那你是不是可以在一定的時間內兩週可以嗎因為你們已經在做這個修法就是那幾個點我們關注那幾個點應該這樣講那個會如果會的話再事情細則事情現在還沒有處理那接下來就是那個國民旅遊卡"},{"start":2721.049,"end":2723.511,"text":"當初為了鼓勵公務員休假及刺激國旅而設置把不休假的加班費轉變成卡片額度美其民是福利但是基層並不認同每年公務員最高可以領一萬六但是其中八千只能用在觀光旅遊"},{"start":2736.744,"end":2748.63,"text":"剩下8年可能可以在國旅商店消費總統限制讓公務員感受到自己辛勤努力工作的報酬他們沒有辦法自由運用那而且還把振興國旅責任好像加在他們身上了所以2024年這個工格力他們有做調查發現75%的公務員支持廢除國旅卡但是人事總書好像沒有正視這個基層的聲音那今年我要特別講公共政策網路參與平台廢除國旅卡"},{"start":2763.757,"end":2778.408,"text":"恢復不休假加班費發放現金的提案已經破五千人的這個服役門檻了那另外司法院釋字第785號解釋早就闡明公務員因公沒有辦法休假所領取的加班費是繼續提供勞務的對價"},{"start":2780.549,"end":2798.979,"text":"本質上就是薪資跟財產權所以就是說我希望人總不要繼續視而不見因為我認為國家要振興觀光應該有交通部交通部觀光署來編列公務預算不要剝奪不宜用基層辛苦的加班費所得的現金去替國家的政策買單"},{"start":2800.16,"end":2820.22,"text":"所以就這個具體的部分我是想請教全序部包括人事總署可不可能順應民意重啟研議讓國旅卡退場那加班費全額回歸到現金呢我跟委員報這個議題真的主管機關是行政院就真的不是行政院是行政院主管這個事情行政院那是人總囉 人總您可以回應嗎"},{"start":2824.705,"end":2841.84,"text":"這個很久了嘛 這個問題已經很久了謝謝委員的一個建議啦那這部分我們也都非常的一個重視那我們在國旅卡的一個精進上面我們一直在大幅的鬆綁跟在做大幅的鬆綁那包含跟休假來做切割我是人總的培訓考用處的處長我的重點是說"},{"start":2845.783,"end":2861.629,"text":"你就不要給他限制啊這個本來剛剛這是解釋他就是屬於他們的薪資跟他們財產權嘛你就回歸到現金嘛就不要再處理國旅卡國旅卡本身也有很多弊病的啦我們也都知道啦你用別的方法這個很多弊病但我今天就不談因為我們希望他退場可以嗎這個委員這我們會在審慎的來演因為他涉及的層面還蠻多的不會吧"},{"start":2869.591,"end":2892.558,"text":"第一個你觀光旅遊本來這個責任就不在基層公務員身上你要促進國內旅遊這個是另外要其他的方法來處理第二個你又限制他們在某一些有簽約的商旅店買東西那個東西老實說也有很多病人他們可以買不需要的東西又退回去等等等等我不需要不好用因為他們覺得這個方法不好用會限制他們用途這個是本來就他們的權益"},{"start":2893.558,"end":2896.239,"text":"謝謝委員的建議這個部分我們會審慎的來做研議跟評估那要跟我們報告這部分我們非常的重視那包含我們的我們這幾年我們也都很積極在處理這個既然剛剛部長說這個是行政院的權責那這一條這一題廢除國旅卡的部分我拜託你也能夠讓我了解你們的進度你可以多少讓我了解"},{"start":2914.246,"end":2932.476,"text":"多久讓我了解剛剛委員有說這已經在這個平台裡面已經達成連署我們會在期限內來做回應那是對人民我需要更快我需要更快的了解我們會趕快認真面對這一題這一題已經很久了幾十年了麻煩處長謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":2941.588,"end":2960.577,"text":"謝謝陳昭之委員的詢問那由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定那我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話我們議事錄就確定接下來請翁曉琳召委來做詢問"},{"start":2967.162,"end":2995.542,"text":"好 謝謝主席這邊有請劉秘書長 施部長請劉秘書長跟施部長還有懷旭 抱歉抱歉 施部長就可以了好 謝謝那麼這個首先請教兩位因為我們知道其實行政院在6月26號前幾天他們就公布了有關於楊真尼政委的構成職場霸凌案那在這個報告當中呢其實也寫得很清楚楊真尼長期利用權勢持續地以"},{"start":2996.443,"end":3021.196,"text":"冒犯、責罵、打斷發言等等這些負面方式去否定部署然後造成極其不友善的工作空間但是這個報告一公佈之後其實身為政務官的楊真寧他已經就是透過經貿辦的公家資源來發表聲明然後他大肆的反其行政院的調查基本上是聽信少數人士的片面言辭欠缺正當程序"},{"start":3021.716,"end":3048.989,"text":"所以呢在這邊想請教是如果說調查程序真的像楊振寧所言的欠缺正當程序那麼行政院的內部調查是不是就是一個兒戲就是根據兩位所了解這次行政院的調查委員會裡面的組成幾乎都是行政院自己內部的人員嗎還是全部都是外部的人員我的理解他應該都有外部人員目前沒有聽說在程序面或者是組成上面有任何的問題"},{"start":3050.348,"end":3071.939,"text":"那我當然本心很希望就是說在這次的這個調查委員會他調查報告本身是具有專業而且公正客觀的那當然現在的這個情況就是卓榮泰已經宣布楊珍妮停職但是對於停職的這件事情本心在這裡是有疑問的對於政務官有所謂的停職嗎"},{"start":3074.431,"end":3094.538,"text":"停職這個概念應該是屬於公務人員常任文官他如果說有一些違法事實的話可能在整個的懲處或是進行到懲戒的時候他有所謂停職但是政務人員有所謂的停職嗎這是代表什麼意思代表之後一個月兩個月之後楊真寧又可以再回任政務人員嗎又可以回來當政務委員嗎"},{"start":3100.902,"end":3127.35,"text":"我們從制度上來講啦 政務官就是去留就是去留嘛 所容他應該就是說從7月1號起就解聘或是不去聘或不聘任楊真寧那講了一個這種讓人似是而非的一個概念 停職這叫政治性停職嗎這政治性停職不是我們法律停職的概念"},{"start":3128.291,"end":3138.191,"text":"這相關的行政人事程序的狀況可能要問由行政院來說明這個我們就不了解對但是就是說從考試院從學習部的角度來看"},{"start":3139.581,"end":3158.779,"text":"停職基本上只有常任文官才有的停職對不對那所以政務人員本身沒有停職的概念而這也是就是本席為什麼一直認為說其實政務官目前他就是缺乏一個專法的規範像楊真你這個事件你說他是可以去准用公務人員保障法的規定嗎"},{"start":3160.54,"end":3187.191,"text":"好像似乎似乎是不行對不對那所以就是對於就是徵務人員他若有嚴重的違法失職然後涉及到像這次那麼刑前嚴重的職場霸凌要就是直接送懲戒了但是行政院好像沒有送懲戒而只是停職他們會送懲戒嗎據你們瞭解這個我不瞭解不過處理那因為這個"},{"start":3188.533,"end":3191.259,"text":"任官任免本來就是首長的權責"},{"start":3192.748,"end":3216.68,"text":"是 所以任免嘛所以這個卓榮泰正確的做法應該是直接免職楊振尼楊振尼政委的這個職務是直接免職而不是用停職的概念所以卓榮泰的這個居心我覺得很奇怪如果他今天不同意或是他也認為楊振尼的行為是不對的話就該免職啦"},{"start":3219.341,"end":3231.889,"text":"或不聘任了 而不是說是用這種停職的方式這讓我又想起 又回想起之前監察院長前監察院秘書長 前監察院秘書長李俊應濫用公務車 帶個送狗去美容的這件事情這件事情也是鬧得沸沸揚揚最後監察院有沒有處理沒有處理 說為什麼沒有處理 因為他辭職了所以辭職之後 連一點點的懲處都沒有"},{"start":3247.284,"end":3266.374,"text":"由此可見為什麼本席一再的提出必須要制定政務人員法政務人員專法的重要性否則我們現在對於政務人員的一些違法失職或是他在行為上面有毀損機關名譽等等這些事情是沒有辦法去規範的"},{"start":3269.915,"end":3294.371,"text":"希望透過這個案例可以請考試院跟全序部要支持本席所提出的政務人員法草案我要預告我很快我就會排審逐條審了這個希望這個全序部跟考試院可以積極的提出你們的想法跟對案好嗎好那回到我們今天討論的這個案子就是我也看了全序部也很"},{"start":3295.782,"end":3311.726,"text":"用心的提出了公務人員考機法的修正雖然說你們在新聞稿跟草案總說明裡面寫得洋洋灑灑說是要重塑考機制度可是其實本席看了你們這次的修法我只是有幾個疑問還是想要就教部長"},{"start":3314.747,"end":3340.549,"text":"就是說你們這次其實之所以要提出公務員員考機法我想最後最關鍵的一點就是大家不滿現在的考機的假等制度因為它會連結到有關於這個考機獎金的問題那麼可是像現在考機獎等75%的上限和基層文官的輪流赤倚的這個漏息在這一次你們的改革當中"},{"start":3341.289,"end":3356.232,"text":"把加一餅丁然後改成了優良良好未達良好等等三個等次可是對於公務人員最在乎的那個考接獎金的能夠拿考接獎金的比例的部分你們在"},{"start":3357.49,"end":3370.961,"text":"這個法條裡面有明文定出嗎還是說你們的政策方向是什麼是認為說還是不要定那又回歸到原點是不是以後機關裡面又慢慢形成一種默契"},{"start":3371.823,"end":3396.514,"text":"我會啦 我跟委員報告現行的制度也沒有定比例啦那是實務上的一個做法但是我們這一次反過來就是說我們就把如果你要考列同仁未打良好你一定要符合我們法條應該是第八條第七條很多法定的室友你才可能考這個那如果你要能夠考同仁優秀那未來我們在適應細則裡面明定哪些款樣才能優秀那簡單講如果不是這兩類"},{"start":3397.853,"end":3414.455,"text":"自然就是中間的這個就所謂的良好的良好就有一個月的獎金所以這不會有什麼輪流不輪流的一個議題我們還是回到核實事實上考計畫本身的本質就是希望大家核實只是過去可能大家執行上也許我們剛才奈講的不過其實我們這次就用這種"},{"start":3416.277,"end":3435.109,"text":"這種方式來處理因為墨氣也是沒有明定但是我就說它長期運作下來實務上就變成一個墨氣假等的大概就是75%的比例然後增下來25%最近這幾年更高現在就算更高那也是它的八成就是它機關裡面內部單位還是有個墨氣在"},{"start":3436.029,"end":3460.451,"text":"就不會是所有的人都會是假等那可是你們現在改了這個方案之後我也看不出來是能夠解決過去大家所質疑的那個問題嗎所以基本上就是不會有輪流的問題啦不會有輪流那當然我也很好奇那未來機關怎麼編預算以後機關的預算就是全部都先編這個編列考屆獎金都是以優秀的標準來編訂嗎我想"},{"start":3462.313,"end":3491.096,"text":"如果我們不可能說讓大家都是優秀那麼最重要就是說優秀還是要符合那個嚴格的一個比例所以部長你應該又回答那個問題那如果真的每個同仁都很優秀不是那優秀的因為我要講的是說那個從我們管理上的角度來講你要認定一個同仁優秀一定是他對於這個機關有非常明確清楚的這個很重要的業務上的貢獻所以從民間企業跟我們過去的實務上的觀點優秀的比例一定不能"},{"start":3491.736,"end":3499.642,"text":"如果優秀比例又變成很高就讓他輪流去當優秀了又回到原來的問題就沒解決了所以這也是本席擔心的所以我們預算的編列上應該會以良好這個單位的長官才是優秀因為所有的功勞都是長官都拿走了所以我剛剛已經提過說我們都是用條件說長官沒有這個條件也不能打優秀因為最後那個程序還是到考試委員會去做處理"},{"start":3515.834,"end":3536.626,"text":"那回到委員剛剛講預算的部分我想這個行政院應該會有一個通案的一個方式就像現在來講我們在編人事費就有一個通案的一個人事費編列的一個方式我想會在那裡面去處理應該不會有任何問題啦好接下來我還要再問第三個問題就是說有關於就是你們在政策草案裡面你們訂了這個未達良好的具體條件只要工作考機被扣上未達良好的話原則上給予半年的改善期"},{"start":3542.589,"end":3569.281,"text":"那起碼如果沒有符合期待或者三年內有第二次考機列未達良好的話就會直接予以免職其實這個法律效果是挺重的可是我們現在看到就是說你們所列你們在草案第八條第1項裡面你們列的那些免職考列未達良好的理由基本上是還蠻模糊的譬如說辦理業務態度惡劣"},{"start":3572.182,"end":3601.438,"text":"或工作推委怠慢工作品質不佳或是影響工作團隊合作等等的這些概念基本上是屬於法律的不確定這個衝向的概念其實未來在實行的時候會不會又造成就是有點像我們現在講的教育部的那個校事會議一樣你看了太多的這種不確定的法律的這些名詞在那裡然後之後呢變成這個長官我要給下屬我要打"},{"start":3603.626,"end":3628.734,"text":"未達良好的考機然後寫理由寫理由的話人家就反對什麼叫做我跟團隊不合作什麼叫工作怠慢推諉這會不會產生這樣的一個問題我跟委員報告兩點第一個現在這些室友我想基本上打考機還是一個管理的事項那現行的制度上這些字眼也都出現了但是最後要怎麼去判斷"},{"start":3629.494,"end":3657.94,"text":"那我們這一次就多加了很多程序面譬如像說如果你要打人家未打良好第一個你一定要這些事有具體事實的記錄第二個你一定要進行面談等於你要先示警啦在最後打之前就要先示警然後讓他知道我為什麼打你這個然後最後你要做一些改善如果到年終的時候還是沒有改善才會進入到打你這個未打良好至少要經過考機委員會的同意所以我的意思是說這種事情永遠是沒有辦法"},{"start":3659.961,"end":3678.437,"text":"百分之百不可能但是我們盡可能在操作這個事情就是說未來會不會公務機關的場合然後就會變得像現在學校的教育的環境一樣變得每個公務員就是人人自為然後以後動不動就是要收證然後隨時要記錄這個長官說我不合作我要去"},{"start":3679.638,"end":3694.508,"text":"記錄起來我有哪裡不合作長官說我這個工作怠慢或是態度惡劣我很擔心就是說未來這個公務環境會不會又變成我跟您報告以過去實務的執行不好意思還有最後一個問題然後就是有關於就是你們在這裡面有甄列草案第17條裡面你們寫了就是一次計兩大過免職的事這是這個規定"},{"start":3708.317,"end":3726.757,"text":"那麼這表面上看起來你們在第17條一次計兩大過免職的這個具體室友似乎是顯得比較清楚比較明確但是呢我們想了解就是說因為呢其實在裡面的很多的免職室友他基本上應該是屬於公務人員懲戒法所以工程法裡面應該要移送"},{"start":3727.357,"end":3747.865,"text":"懲戒法院審理的司法懲戒的範疇可是你現在卻把它全部都收攏到行政機關裡面透過公務人員考記法裡面直接就來處理等於用行政懲處相當程度的去取代了司法懲戒所以本席這邊也是對於這樣的一個制度會感到質疑就會"},{"start":3750.667,"end":3756.88,"text":"認為這樣的一個處理狀況是否妥當尤其是免職它是情節非常嚴重的一個室友"},{"start":3758.107,"end":3780.973,"text":"我跟委員報告我想社會期待行政機關作為一個行政機關他對於同仁如果有違法或者是不當的行為一定要及時做處理我想社會很期待我們行政要做這個事情那所以這一次其實我們叫行政懲處上是在強化這個部分的對社會上做回應至於行政機關的懲處過程當然一定要"},{"start":3781.993,"end":3808.147,"text":"進行準法律的保障程序所以才有那一個一次就要怎麼樣去進行那最後如果當事人不同意他當然還是可以去有他救濟的一個方式所以他不會有任何的一個權利上的損失現在有關公務員的話重大的這種失職或者免職的話基本上都是移交到執行界法院去處理嘛當然行政職務也不是不可以做那本席只是想要強調就是說因為大法官在113年的憲判自第9號第10號判決裡面其實寫得很清楚"},{"start":3811.189,"end":3824.365,"text":"行政機關握有免職權但是為了要維持行政紀律所不可或缺的最小限度內的行政手段才能夠去行使所以本期這邊是提醒今天警視部你們所提的這個案子"},{"start":3826.548,"end":3830.272,"text":"似乎有可能未來或許會跟司法懲戒權會有互相競合的問題所以我今天我想我也不在這邊跟部長跟考試院這裡多做討論我是希望就是全序部可不可以在兩周內針對草案的第17條以及公務員懲戒法的事由重疊的部分"},{"start":3847.572,"end":3860.398,"text":"還有你們未來在遇到相關的案你們怎麼樣的處理的方式給我一份報告好嗎好 沒有問題好 那我們等到這個相關的法條要再進行主條審查的時候我們再來討論對 沒有問題 謝謝委員 支持整部法律 謝謝好 謝謝翁曉琳委員接下來請張雅玲委員來做懸檔"},{"start":3877.365,"end":3905.425,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請全序部請全序部 施部長施部長好 首先呢還是因為我自己一直都關心這個育嬰留庭就是友善職場的這件事情所以想要特別針對於烤雞法裡面我們現在呢其實是沒有因為大家其實一直都很擔心就是我請育嬰留庭的時候會影響到我的烤雞但在性供法裡面呢其實它是明確定在母法裡面"},{"start":3905.905,"end":3926.484,"text":"但是在烤雞法裡面現在是沒有看到這樣子的一個文字是放在烤雞法的母法裡面目前是放在施行細則所以我想問的是這個部分有沒有可能把它跟信封法一致都放在母法裡面來去保障我們公務員呢請這些運營留庭相關的試駕的時候不會被影響烤雞"},{"start":3930.247,"end":3957.135,"text":"我跟你們報兩點我們的考機法其實上一次先修了把育嬰留庭的同仁本來那個另一考機現在另一考機也可以兩次就算成一次年終考機所以它事實上就已經是更保護育嬰留庭的同仁的一個權益了那自己請育嬰留庭當然不會影響到這個不利的一個處分這個性供法本來就有規定那我們就會回到這個機關裡面根據性供法的一個方式來運作"},{"start":3958.235,"end":3977.45,"text":"至於說是不是適合要一定在裡面把性供法文字再抄進來一次這個我想我們會後的時候是否再跟同仁再討論那俗叫審查之後我們再想想這個事情因為之前其實我問過很多次部長都說其實沒有這樣子的問題也都可以申訴管道都非常暢通"},{"start":3978.01,"end":4003.79,"text":"但是事實上我們這邊不管是我們臉書的發文的留言或私底下都還是會接到說大家會希望說先把育嬰留庭不會影響考記這件事情處理好再說就是我們還是會收到類似這樣子的一個呈請啦所以我想這件事情是不是就是部長剛剛也有說嘛會後可以再討論那我想我們是不是就是會後再來討論因為時間有限我們後面還有幾個跟考記法制度上面很明確的問題要來跟部長做討論"},{"start":4007.313,"end":4032.502,"text":"就是說我們這次的考機法除了將考機等次改為優良、良好、未達良好這三個等次也導入了類似績效改進計畫PIP的制度設計目前依照草案的設計如果它被考機打成是未達良好的狀況的時候它就會進入半年的時間來做這個績效的改進但是如果半年之後沒有符合期待或是最近三年內有兩次"},{"start":4033.522,"end":4054.564,"text":"都是被打成未達良好就會被面臨免職所以簡單來說現在的制度就是說如果他是丁等直接免職這是沒有問題的對不對但是呢這次如果是未達良好的就表示是有半年的改善期要給予輔導的機制那等於就是說在現在的制度之下考積列丙等主要是留了他原來的一些興奉的部分"},{"start":4055.758,"end":4071.432,"text":"奉集然後不予獎勵並不會立即進入免職程序但是呢現在就變成是說這個未達良好其實不是單純介於平等跟丁等之間它會直接連結到他的身份保障跟免職的效果那我想"},{"start":4071.912,"end":4087.45,"text":"大家都認同公務體系一定要考核但是我覺得最重要的關鍵其實是標準要清晰而且就是說這個標準如果不清主管有沒有辦法有能力輔導這都可能是接下來要很認真去思考的問題不然我們今天做這個"},{"start":4088.411,"end":4110.135,"text":"績效改進制度可能就不會有達到它實質的效果好 所以我想問的是說因為我看了一下愛爾蘭的制度我們之前選區部也有去考察那他們是四次的一個review然後總共為期是將近十個月的時間但是我們現在是把績效改進定為半年那我想了解依據是什麼"},{"start":4111.838,"end":4131.909,"text":"我跟委員報告所謂要改進多長跟多短這個很難有科學的依據啦這是根據我們實務上的一個看法就是說如果我前面已經很清楚我們有一個很清楚的category說你屬於哪一來你為什麼會被打未打良好是因為符合哪一項哪一項那如果已經這樣子了我們接下來就要半年期間好好來"},{"start":4132.469,"end":4145.699,"text":"希望你要改善這個特定為什麼未打良好的室友我們覺得六個月左右來觀察你應該我們認為這樣夠了太長喔老實說對同仁也不是好的一個事情對機關也不是好的事情"},{"start":4146.659,"end":4167.502,"text":"對 但是因為現在大家是覺得說因為每個機關的可能狀況不一啦你只有設半年的時候可能也不是很理想所以今天為什麼會問那個問題就是說到底是參考了哪一個國家的制度或者是說因為剛剛說沒有科學數字嘛那但是參考了哪一國的國家的經驗因為我自己看了一下你們之前有考察就是日本跟愛爾蘭啦"},{"start":4168.243,"end":4189.337,"text":"那這個好像是比較接近你們現在愛爾蘭的方向因為你整整是少了四個月嘛所以才會想說你們怎麼從十個月縮短到六個月或者是說因為機關的差異很大是不是這個還有可能有調整的空間我們建制來看法任何這種對同仁有比較相對不利的一個狀況最好不要"},{"start":4190.357,"end":4204.633,"text":"不要有那個所謂彈性空間讓器官去操作最好是一次一次的方式是比較好但是我們還是認為六個月是適當的對 因為我們其實是受到民間公格例啦他們是認為說半年的時間似乎是太短了"},{"start":4205.114,"end":4231.669,"text":"但是我想這個部分因為他們有講到我覺得有些論述也是蠻有道理的因為有些問題可能是工作方法或是溝通的技巧那這可能半年之內就可以改善可是有些其實是牽扯到組織分工職務調整還有主管的輔導品質甚至工作量分配等等的可能不是他半年就可以搞定的事情所以我想要再進步強調如果你們認為半年就是夠的話那你們會如何在施行細則裡面去"},{"start":4232.769,"end":4250.457,"text":"採定更明確的一個輔導的紀錄評估以及救濟制度因為我想績效目標輔導品質這些都是要非常明確我們才能夠說他已經近了半年的時間可是沒有辦法達到良好的一個表現所以接下來事情細則裡面我們會怎麼做"},{"start":4252.321,"end":4265.558,"text":"謝謝委員的指教確實我們在事情細則裡面必須要更進一步去談這個事情不過我剛剛講的大方向就是當初你為什麼會被評為打良好的室友我知道我的意思是說根據這個室友呢機關就要開始進入這個輔導這個輔導可能一開始就要"},{"start":4269.142,"end":4296.395,"text":"做面談共同設定說未來你這個事由是哪裡缺陷你要怎麼改善改善那這是很細節的部分不過我相信我們在施行細則訂定的過程會再找更多的同仁一起來做這種交換意見那我就明確要求啦就幾件事情我希望說在施行細則裡面可以完全的清楚的討論一些被清楚的載明最主要就是說我們的績效目標一定要提出非常明確的績效目標然後呢要有主管在商談的時候一些要留下書面文字記錄"},{"start":4297.655,"end":4324.523,"text":"那特別是說如果今天狀況真的是主管能力有一點狀況的時候呢這個機關一定要來協助啦協助齁那最後就是說我們的結果也要有非常明確的事由那特別是說呢救濟機關呢也必須要有一個可以依據的審查標準就是說你們把他判了就是說未達良好要免職的時候他走救濟的時候救濟也要有一個非常清晰的標準可以來執行好嗎"},{"start":4325.963,"end":4350.904,"text":"這個部分就麻煩那個選區部在跟這個團體們還有專家學者們詳細的討論但再來就是說我們在這次的考積法裡面呢把原本的甲乙丙丁這個四個等次呢其實改成優良良好跟偉達良好這樣子那刪除了原本的這個分數的設計那但是呢同時呢我也看到我覺得草案有一個設計很不錯就是優等 優秀等次的激勵效果"},{"start":4353.206,"end":4365.46,"text":"會給這個1.3個月的縫級總額的一次獎金三年考列優秀者再進縫一級以及最近五年內三年以上考列優秀者優先列入升任偵審及晉升官等訓練名單 對吧"},{"start":4368.683,"end":4395.478,"text":"好我想這個其實就是鼓勵我們的優秀公務員也要讓他的優秀表現被大家所看見我們希望他跟未來的生前有更好的這個對我們就是鼓勵他認識勇於認識嘛對不對好但是我想這就牽扯到那到底考慮優秀的條件跟標準是什麼因為這樣子大家要更清楚大家才知道說我要怎樣才能夠被認為是優秀跟那個就是可以得到這些表揚這樣子"},{"start":4397.701,"end":4413.772,"text":"沒有錯我想跟委員報告這個事情我們會在事情細則定那這個原則上應該這樣講現在的考積法裡面你想要考甲等有分兩個一個是一般條件一個是特殊條件那原則上我們會以甲等的特殊條件的室友"},{"start":4414.332,"end":4438.102,"text":"那特殊條件真的是要很就是比較重大那由那個部分展開然後跟大家討論說哪些因為我們的機關別太多業務也性質也太多所以我們要來好好去考慮說什麼比較適合這個叫做優秀那因為回過頭來優秀有很好的要跟未來升遷的一個效果連結所以我們在優秀的條件設定上會比較嚴格因為我們不希望"},{"start":4438.502,"end":4462.256,"text":"不是嚴格沒有問題啦但是要明確啦當然就是要明確我今天其實講的重點就是要讓他明確要讓民眾要讓我們的公務員覺得說這件事情我們一定是找明確的方式來處理所以這個部分一定要走到那個非常明確的一個認定標準然後但是我覺得還是會有一個問題就是說我們現在呢如果說各機關都不願意得罪人然後最後大家都是考慮良好會不會有這個狀況"},{"start":4465.457,"end":4487.688,"text":"未來就是如果他不是獵對未打良好也不是獵優秀自然就是良好對可是我是說大家都覺得我不知道會不會有可能就是各機關不願意得罪人所以最後都只有打良好沒有優秀這個事情我跟委員報告管理上的事情還是機關要去承擔這個責任那我覺得我們給了這樣一個讓機關更好運作我相信機關"},{"start":4488.829,"end":4513.061,"text":"如果對於同仁來講很優秀的同仁他們一定會不吝給予這個激勵我想這是因為他如果不激勵優秀的同仁老實說他機關也沒辦法運作我想問一下就是說當然這是理想上面我們在這個人力資源的管理上面理想上的理論上是這樣子做是實務上我們還是要回到實務上面對所以我想這部分我就要求一下就是權敘部接下來還是要跟我們的各機關來明確的去討論這個優秀到底怎麼樣"},{"start":4517.705,"end":4537.885,"text":"再來就是說因為這個考核的細目目前還是會回到各機關自己來去做考核可是問題是各機關的差異也非常大那到時候會不會在這個認定的優秀標準其實也是會有非常不一致的一個狀況因為我們優秀的標準如果定出來那是一個通話標準機關就不可能低於這個標準"},{"start":4539.727,"end":4561.188,"text":"好 所以我們基本上是會 那所以像聽起來就是說我們會先訂定一個明確的標準之後方向然後請各機關依據這個方向跟概念去訂他們自己各機關的所謂的考核標準好 那我想問一下就是說那如果說未來公務人員認為機關的自訂考核細目不合理"},{"start":4562.149,"end":4588.2,"text":"或者標準過於主觀在申訴附審等行政救濟的時候我們要用什麼樣子的標準去判斷呢我覺得標準本身因為它是一個法規面不會變成那個所謂這個救濟的標的至於說機關要怎麼定的過程是不是應該跟同仁更多的一個討論在我們大框架之下跟同仁多討論我想這是一個機關應該做的一個事情"},{"start":4590.371,"end":4612.188,"text":"我想我這個問題其實是說因為其實接下來可能會有人認為這個機關定的標準不合理我講的其實是在這裡那這個標準不合理的時候他可能就要走救濟他也有可能會走救濟的系統去討論所以標準合不合理應該不會進入到所謂救濟的一個程序那是在內部討論的一個程序"},{"start":4613.521,"end":4618.631,"text":"好沒有關係那基本上就是說我希望接下來還是回到我剛剛講的這個重點"},{"start":4621.37,"end":4646.889,"text":"全旭部作為主考機關他應該還是要做清楚的一個細則實習細則來去對我們全國考機的通用做出一個統一的規範那所以我是希望說在未來我們審這個考機法之後呢待多久的時間我們大概可以完成這相關的實行細則其實我們是很希望如果這個大院的委員都能夠認為很重要很支持我們希望在今年就把這個這個法通過那我們希望趕快在今年"},{"start":4647.89,"end":4660.302,"text":"年底以前我們就能夠把適應細則完成配套所有的相關的配套那這個明年就可以開始使用事實上對公務同仁來講也是期待盡快使用了了解 好 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來請審發會委員來做詢問"},{"start":4683.66,"end":4703.418,"text":"主席我想我們直接請施部長請施部長各位很早施部長早我想今天這個不知道是部長有沒有印象在3月19的時候我們這個司法院來進行這個立法計畫跟業務報告的時候那時候"},{"start":4704.738,"end":4712.509,"text":"本席就針對這個考機法的問題那時候有跟市部長這邊來請教那時候最主要當然是針對我們公共政策網路參與平台那時候有一個"},{"start":4721.781,"end":4748.491,"text":"民間的提案那裡面關於這主要幾個重點大概就是它的我們甲等乙等的這些比例的規定另外就是這個有關於這個評量的機制再來就是說這個考評平和的這個責任大概就這幾點我們這個我看這個這一次我們在5月15我們終於把這個考級法的修正查那時候我就問說這個考級法什麼時候要修那時候部長就說"},{"start":4750.417,"end":4773.909,"text":"說這個會很快的送進立法院那我們5月15送進來今天才開這個會啦齁那這個這個我在這邊基本我看了你們送進來的這整個草案齁基本上像這個網路偵測平台或者是民間大家所關心的這些我剛提的這幾個問題你們都在這法案修正裡面都做了回應而且都基本上是往這個方向來修正好這部分我先基本上"},{"start":4774.722,"end":4781.036,"text":"給你們肯定啦齁但是我現在要請教部長就是說部長我不曉得你今天你有沒有看到今天司法院的這個書面報告"},{"start":4782.403,"end":4808.517,"text":"我有看到有看到司法院書面報告昨天晚上昨天晚上看到因為你們這個不用會前司法院所以你們現在才看到司法院的意見我也仔細看了司法院的意見這個其實是對這部草案有幾個蠻核心的關鍵問題提出了很核心的挑戰這部分我覺得今天我們要做個回應或者是說這部分因為我們今天只進行詢答不會進行逐條"},{"start":4809.477,"end":4834.463,"text":"未來在進行逐條之前我覺得這幾個司法院所提出來的問題我覺得我們必須要做討論跟處理不然的話到時候在逐條的時候你要本院委員支持這個草案上面可能會在幾個關鍵的節點上面會產生很大的疑慮尤其司法院直指我們有一些已經違反憲法的層次"},{"start":4836.267,"end":4861.929,"text":"這個部分大概中緒線兩點不好第一點就是說剛剛有委員談到這個事情那我們會剛剛也提到說我們會用書面的方式就司法案提的一個議題我們會主點來表達我們意見給委員會然後這次大概是大的方向是這樣我現在大概就針對幾個我個人認為說一定要說明清楚不然很難"},{"start":4863.807,"end":4888.266,"text":"這個獲得這個立法上面支持的幾個點來這邊跟你請教那我看今天司法院我們是由這個行政訴訟及懲戒廳的法官合法官我想合法官應該是在這個對司法院這個意見是相當的清楚現在才代表司法院來了那很抱歉我們就請合法官來了這個這事務長你留步我們就是要討論這幾個問題第一個"},{"start":4892.762,"end":4893.303,"text":"首先針對這個修正條例第16條"},{"start":4900.407,"end":4911.493,"text":"第一項第二款過去原本我們這是有關於供貨獎懲的部分我們把獎勵跟懲處把它分開來這16條就變成專論懲處這部分有針對違反服務法令跟紀律行為的部分我們在第一項第二款有一個降序一級這個是新增的規定有關降序一級"},{"start":4928.177,"end":4934.581,"text":"降序一級的這個規定這部分司法院是不是能夠講一下有關於這個降序一級你們在書面裡面所提的這個意見"},{"start":4937.028,"end":4963.843,"text":"好 各位委員報告因為這個司法院大法官釋字第483號解釋曾經明確的做過解釋關於這個公務員的降級或減縫當時大法官認為就是必須要經過公務員懲戒機關這個目前就是懲戒法院依法定程序審議決定如果不是依照這個程序審議決定不得降級或減縫大法官當時認為這個是憲法上服公職權利所受的自主性保障好 謝謝那我們請事務部長回答一下有關於這個降序一級"},{"start":4965.324,"end":4981.672,"text":"這個剛剛司法院的意見說認為這大法會議已經解釋了這是專屬於司法權了我想跟我們報告我們內部有討論過因為481號的解釋那時候那時候的奉集法那個考取法根本還沒有降序以久我們認為這是一個只要在立法政策上裡面放上去呢實際上是沒有這個問題的"},{"start":4983.001,"end":5002.18,"text":"你們在就是你們立法理由就是解釋之前事實上是這個考紀法也沒有這個降序以舉這種概念那我們認為呢只要符合法律保障的一個程序我們把它放在法律裡面立法就是立法會授權放在法律裡面但是你這個大法院會議解釋他解釋說這個是屬於"},{"start":5003.821,"end":5016.671,"text":"懲戒法院也就是司法權它是屬於司法權才可以做我想大法官這解釋是回到懲戒跟懲處最上位的那個區分那我們認為我們這一次是用行政懲處的方式來處理這個問題"},{"start":5019.096,"end":5036.458,"text":"降序是行政懲處嗎我們認為行政懲處把用法律的方式加進來降序讓機關針對不同類型的在爭議的司法院認為這個降序不能用行政懲處這是專屬於司法權的這是司法懲戒法院才可以做的"},{"start":5037.319,"end":5059.109,"text":"跟我有報告因為這個所謂的制度性保障它是憲法上憲法層級的一種程序的保障所以當時大法官應該是認為說這個公務員要被降級或檢訪他必須要經過一定的程序這個程序大法官講的就是公務員承接機關依法定程序審議所以這個當時大法官說這是制度性保障制度性保障是憲法層級的保障它並不是因為"},{"start":5060.83,"end":5072.36,"text":"這個哪個法律怎麼定他就可以隨意去修改的那483號解釋目前也沒有被後面的任何的解釋或是憲法判決推翻過所以他目前仍然是有效的解釋依照這個憲法訴訟法規定的"},{"start":5074.693,"end":5099.551,"text":"所以這個部分齁,這個部分我認為這個司務長你剛才解釋有一點就是說你認為這個降序也屬於行政處分的部分但是依照這個司法院的意見認為所謂檢控或者是降序,這個都是都是屬於司法權,都是由懲戒法院才能做的所以你現在在這裡新增了這個降序一級齁,這個在未來立法上面這個會"},{"start":5100.832,"end":5114.043,"text":"會有違憲的疑慮就是說即使我們立法院支持你通過了如果有人因為這樣這樣去了現在送憲法法庭事實上是有可能依照司法院的意見你這個是有可能被判處"},{"start":5115.98,"end":5126.527,"text":"做違憲判決的這部分我希望說我覺得你們內部應該我個人認為你們在立法理由裡面提到說483號解釋這個提說非經懲戒程序不得為降級處分"},{"start":5132.131,"end":5145.533,"text":"你們提到說舉重以民輕的原則啦你意思就是說免職都是屬於免職都是屬於行政機關的專屬權利的那降序比免職還輕所以你們意思只會舉重以民輕是這個意思嘛對不對"},{"start":5146.891,"end":5165.785,"text":"你說這個解釋就是說這個免職的權利是屬於行政權的核心權利所以免職都已經是核心權利了所以降序應該也是屬於行政權但是司法院看法完全不同他認為說減俸減俸跟降序他就是必須經過懲戒法院的程序必須他是專屬於司法權他認為這是在憲法裡面的規定"},{"start":5167.246,"end":5183.658,"text":"這部分第一個我們在我們進入逐條之前我認為你們這部分如果不做解決這一條這個將去處分的這個規定我們到時候可能會有很大的爭議那接著有關於第20條我們接著修正案的第20條"},{"start":5185.526,"end":5204.712,"text":"基本上這個司法院在這一條也非常非常有意見就是你們所提到在第20條的第4項基本上就規定說同一個違私的行為如果已經做了行政的處分就不再就排除掉這個移送懲戒了就不再移送懲戒就用行政處分來排除"},{"start":5205.723,"end":5234.249,"text":"司法權的移送懲戒移送懲戒就是交由監察院或者是由懲戒法院來處理那第五項就是說懲戒法院審理當中停止就必須要停止程序跟包括救濟程序都要停止這部分大概第20條司法院在這兩個部分有非常大的意見這部分是不是先請合法官我們就這個所謂同意為師行為不再移送懲戒這個部分"},{"start":5235.188,"end":5261.637,"text":"你要不要說一下你們司法院的看法跟委員報告確實這個部分我們司法院確實是有蠻大的意見這個詳細的內容當然是書面不過我想我提出一個議題像最近大家如果看到新聞懲戒法公務員被考積法免職之後那因為考積法的免職目前是沒有禁止在任的效果的但其實我們懲戒法的免職如果是被懲戒法判決免職的話原則上是終身禁止在任公務員那這位這位何法官你講的是第11條的問題"},{"start":5263.437,"end":5291.243,"text":"我現在這邊提說就是他封主會造成一個問題就是他如果被考積法免職之後就算依照現在的草案他經過一定時間之後都還是可以再任的兩年所以他等於是所以先變成說如果這個公務員有了重大維持結果被機關用考積法免職之後他就沒辦法移送懲戒了那他就不會被懲戒法院判決免職這樣的結果就變成這個公務員在一定期間經過之後他就可以再任了他本來如果到懲戒法院被判決免職他是終生不能再任公務員的"},{"start":5291.923,"end":5307.054,"text":"所以我覺得他的效果是沒有辦法取代司法懲戒的部長你知道司法院講的意思嗎我當然知道你說明一下我覺得這種講法即使案子送到工程會去工程會是不是一定會給予更重的"},{"start":5308.352,"end":5322.243,"text":"免除職務的他不是輕重的問題而是免職本身的效果我們免職效果是兩年以後不能再任但是在公務人員任用法裡面是永久"},{"start":5323.82,"end":5351.312,"text":"是永久的消極資格你如果依照公務員任用法免職的你終身都不能都不能在任但是按照考積法免職的兩年後可以在任而偏偏你們是按照考積法兩年的免職裡面的你們的條件有很多都是非常重大的判國這些等等這些重大罪行就重大罪行的兩年後可以在任但是一般按照公務員任用法免職的我理解"},{"start":5351.992,"end":5375.855,"text":"我的意思是在講是說我們根據考機法如果趕快免職以後我們現在因為我們基於不要製造這個如果同一個室友送到工程會去第一個工程會通常每個案件處理時間都很久事實上我們要強調的是快速所以第二個送去以後同一個室友啦送到工程會去工程會未必一定會判他那個終身免職也有可能是撤職"},{"start":5376.877,"end":5401.856,"text":"所以我們的任用就是不得再任用兩年那工程會撤止最長五年那過去實務慣例上大概是兩到三年所以我的意思在講這個是如果用這套邏輯應該這樣解釋至於是什麼東西適不適合在公務任用法裡面直接講說這些重大事由是不是就應該要終身免職這是另外一個立法政策的問題公務人員任用法第28條"},{"start":5403.197,"end":5423.814,"text":"第一項第六款的規定它承受免職、懲處處分者系不得任用公務人員之永久消極資格永久終生永久消極資格不因時間經過而消滅所以按照這一條的免職它的時效是永遠不得再任但是如果你們用這個因為你們就用了這個烤雞法"},{"start":5428.098,"end":5450.582,"text":"就先行政,先用行政懲處,然後排除掉就用這一條把他排除掉送懲戒你說因為已經送處分了,有人說不送懲戒不送懲戒你就排除掉他未來在司法上面受到終身按照公務員任用法,終身不得任用的這個限制就排除掉了"},{"start":5451.867,"end":5464.04,"text":"這個是第一個啦我們不要講說到免職啦你們因為這樣子的你們這個立法就是基本上就變成你們用行政懲處你們來整個就是封阻掉司法的懲戒"},{"start":5466.501,"end":5482.879,"text":"我們沒有封主啦我們是說同一個室友如果行政已經做出懲處了已經確定了就不要再往下沒有沒有 這個就是問題啊你行政已經懲處了你就封主掉他未來就不再送司法的懲戒但司法懲戒"},{"start":5484.466,"end":5496.652,"text":"司法懲戒你這樣會造成一個結果啦會造成一種例如說你有關於這個霸凌啦或者是其他的這些案件我趕快在你被移送懲戒之前我趕快先做行政處分"},{"start":5497.608,"end":5522.783,"text":"那你就不得再送懲戒了那我要跟委員報告就是說社會上非常期待只要是有類似公務人員這重大為事的一個事情刑事機關就是要立即做出處理我想委員應該也支持這樣子這個我支持我意思是說你們做了行政懲處之後為什麼要排除掉為什麼我做了行政懲處我就排除掉他的義送因為如果再往後面去我們不曉得後面的那個第一個他時間會拖很久"},{"start":5524.227,"end":5548.054,"text":"事實上他處理個個案我們最近看那個是要大概快到一年我的意思是說時效你行政可以很快的做行政處分但是你你為什麼要排除掉我做行政處分之後就不能不再送不再移送懲戒我覺得這個人是同一個室友不要有兩個處分事實上在憲判第九號裡面大概說這個程序面你們是不是應該都去了解一下我們是用這種方式來避免這個事情講一下這個意見我剛剛講法跟這個司務長講法"},{"start":5553.681,"end":5572.761,"text":"對確實目前其實目前限制就是這個樣子其實行政機關目前本來就可以先依考機法來做這個考機法的懲處但是目前的限制是他並不會排除他同時做完懲處之後同時將案件移付懲戒那目前的規定是如果後續懲戒法院做出了懲戒判決之後有做懲戒處分那原本的前面的懲處會失效"},{"start":5573.382,"end":5601.336,"text":"那這樣的做法其實就是現在的做法其實並不會有剛剛事務部長講的說他沒辦法立即處理的問題因為他其實現在本來依照現在的規定他現在行政機關跑完這個行政懲處流程之後他就可以做懲處的免職了好 謝謝 事務部長跟委員報告這個絕對是立法政策的問題那我還實際提供一個討論就是說社會上期待我們要盡快處理這個事情那處理完以後就讓它結束了就不要在我後面的程序Pending在那裡那實際上"},{"start":5602.901,"end":5626.79,"text":"老實說行政法 懲戒法案對最重的處罰曾祭出叫做終身免職的這個處分不管是什麼案件我想比例應該是很低很低那我們這一次把行政懲處的概念把讓刑事機關有各種可以回應社會的一個機會馬上處理我覺得這才是一個應該要走的方式剛剛委員提到像什麼內亂 壞亂 這種東西那個在任用法就平穩禁止了現在的討論的重點是為什麼你們要"},{"start":5631.932,"end":5652.467,"text":"現在修法上面要增訂這一條說我已經進行行政處分之後我要排除掉你以後就不再送司法懲戒了我還是一樣這是最重要一個是行政紀律的貫徹這個照現行一樣啊剛剛司法院講現行我也可以做行政懲處同時移送司法院懲戒後面我們不曉得會發生什麼事情發生什麼事是司法權啊我行政權可以先做處分但是後續司法權做什麼樣判決我們可以再來"},{"start":5658.832,"end":5687.531,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們的態度是行政權做處分以完以後公務同仁所有的救濟就進入到他的救濟程序對不起時間的關係他可以進入到他的救濟程序這個司法院引用了一個非常重量級的叫做憲法第77條司法院認為公務員的這個懲戒是專屬於司法權的用憲法第77條簡單講就是說他們認為你這樣子用這個行政懲戒來排除掉後續的這個司法懲戒他們認為這個就違憲了"},{"start":5689.112,"end":5707.703,"text":"所以未來如果有這樣子的問題,一樣未來再送這個憲法法庭的時候,這條你同樣有可能會被判決為違憲這個是司法院所提出來的警示這部分我認為說你們一樣在逐條之前,你們必須要解釋清楚,不然連我說的我還"},{"start":5711.397,"end":5733.672,"text":"我還蠻贊同司法院的意見我認為說司法院意見的邏輯非常清楚針對這個憲法上面最後一點點時間就是有關於你們在第17條你們提到說經檢察官提起公訴加上機關認定你們就可以進行一次計兩大過處分可以於免職"},{"start":5735.186,"end":5755.863,"text":"這個部分司法院也非常有意見啊認為說為什麼經檢察官起訴機關認定他還沒有還沒有這個司法最後的判決你們就可以可以這個進行他認為說這個就是在正當程序無罪推定跟比例原則都違反了我跟委員報告這個也是現行考機法裡面就有類似的規定了"},{"start":5757.551,"end":5784.798,"text":"這部分我想逐條的時候我們再來進行討論不過我希望說司法院的這個意見我們司法院的意見這部分我個人認為他講得蠻清楚的就是不是反對你們的修法而是你們修法這裡面有這幾個點這個司法院認為非常有疑慮我本席也認為說這個部分在法律上面有一些疑義這個在未來逐條審查的時候可能會遇到問題以上"},{"start":5787.537,"end":5807.309,"text":"好謝謝那接下來我們請林倩琦委員可以可以"},{"start":5812.13,"end":5821.82,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天我們針對這個考題法我先請我們的劉秘書長跟我們學術部的施部長"},{"start":5822.591,"end":5841.45,"text":"好 考試院劉秘書長以及我們玄學部的市部長委員長秘書長部長好那我們今天要針對這個公務人員考機法最主要是針對整個考機的制度那麼長年來那個考機甲等45%的上限比例一直在被爭論"},{"start":5842.831,"end":5865.305,"text":"那所以你們在這次的考記法裡面做了一些調整但是在這樣同樣的目標下本席其實要請教的是那這次的修法要怎麼樣能夠實質回應基層公務人員常年反映的這個輪流遲疑的問題那我想現在最詬病的也就是大家在輪流分配假等那不一定認真的人就能夠有假等"},{"start":5865.845,"end":5887.716,"text":"那這個也跟有一些性格有點關係那可能對於長官是不是對長官比較討喜那這個部分就比較有一些爭議啦那但是這次的做法是把甲乙丙丁的四個等次分成優秀良好未達良好似乎是大家比較朝一個正面表列去鼓勵啦那但是"},{"start":5888.616,"end":5909.097,"text":"事實上原先烤雞法的75%的上限本來就不是明文規定而是透過韓式跟行政慣例還有食物的操作就形成了這樣一個限制但問題其實本來不是在烤雞法等次的這個本身那為什麼你們認為那把這個四等次改成三等次就能夠解決輪流吃飲的問題"},{"start":5910.979,"end":5927.787,"text":"那麼烤雞等次減少會不會因此而變得不太精細那原本是加一餅丁嘛那現在是三個等次好像是簡化了把大家都放進良好那但是那個未達良好是不是這個比例也會變高那所以本席想請教兩個問題啦"},{"start":5929.088,"end":5945.762,"text":"就是考試院跟全序部可不可以再進一步的說明那三個等次的制度怎麼來解決長期反應的輪流遲疑的這個問題那第二個部分是如果改成這三個等次優秀良好跟未達良好那麼全序部你們怎麼樣能夠從輪流遲疑變成"},{"start":5948.965,"end":5968.211,"text":"小數人沒有達到這個良好的這樣一個標籤那另外呢各機關的一個評定標準會不會有一些公開化的可能那第三個部分是那如何建立跨機關一致性的指標我相信有人提到相關的就是很多不同的組織"},{"start":5970.192,"end":5991.594,"text":"這個指標或是標準不太一樣那這個部分如何去處理這個一致性指標的這個問題那另外也就是那單位主管的一個主觀印象那還有通財之間的人際關係再加上可能有些政治壓力的這個部分如何來決定考積的這個結果那這個部分是不是先請你們做一個回應"},{"start":5992.955,"end":6015.48,"text":"跟委員先做一些說明就是說這次其實是一個結構的調整也就是因為現行因為用實務上的做法假等比例上限這個實務的做法已經它其實也有它的問題那簡單講我們一個機關裡面同仁的表現其實常態分配上應該是很少數的人是需要被加強"},{"start":6017.56,"end":6036.712,"text":"特別去關心跟輔導的也可能是進入淘汰的候選那另外有一些會因為可能特殊的表現他會表現得格外突出那這個是需要特別去獎勵的那其他的同仁大部分他們在立場工作上面就是表現良好一個稱職所以他應該是這樣的一個常態分布就是"},{"start":6037.512,"end":6064.816,"text":"特別好的跟特別像統計區間的這個兩端嘛對不對應該在兩端但我們把假等變成75%那這個是有一個過程的以前是三分之一後來變五成後來變成不設限又倒回來變成設75%那個75%應該是以50%為原則75%為上限但最後就變成了75%當多數人都是第一名的時候拿第二名的人就會很不服氣了"},{"start":6066.483,"end":6093.724,"text":"因為這條界線畫得很奇怪所以我們藉由這一次的修法我們想重新架構這個結構我們希望說蔣優的部分就集中在最前端泰烈的部分其實有點像原來平等的那個概念我想應該這個利益都良好啦但是原先的這四個等次到後來會變成這樣一個結果的這個脈絡不知道你們有沒有把它查得比較清楚要不然"},{"start":6094.404,"end":6119.48,"text":"這三個等次之後會不會又落入像先前可能在人質的這個部分會變成大家都想要爭第一以這個第一的這個定義又有一些可能不是大家都服氣的這個狀況就是說未達良好的這個部分呢我們有明確入法具體化它的標準那未來在優秀的部分它會在施行細則也有具體的一個標準"},{"start":6120.32,"end":6137.292,"text":"就是我們讓這個標準比較是比較明確具體所以這個部分就是你們去因應先前不是一個一定要打出多少比例本來立法跟後來的結果一個差距的一個因應方式目前大概是這樣現在就是說我們重新調整整個烤雞制度的結構"},{"start":6138.372,"end":6153.924,"text":"那因為這樣的話就是說你只要你雖然不是特別格外的優秀被放入優秀那一組那你也沒有到達未達良好的話那基本上就是良好那良好就是一個月就是類似原來加等的獎金那所以您剛才其實您這邊也提到說那未來這個未達良好"},{"start":6155.925,"end":6182.371,"text":"那跟其實過去在舊法裡面那這個釘等可能真的就會比較像是服務懲處那這一次我們把它切開就是說懲處是懲處啦工作考機跟工作考機兩個概念是要把它分開來所以你就在過去的釘等裡面把這個部分分開了嘛釘等部分就是放到那個服務懲處因為本席接下來要問的也是比較擔心這個新法的草案會不會讓這個公務人員被解聘反而這個門大開"},{"start":6183.911,"end":6212.727,"text":"那會動搖整個文官的一個穩定性所以這個你們原先四等改成了三等嘛但是就您剛才的解釋在這個第三等的這個部分把工作的部分跟懲戒的部分把它分開那可能我們就得期待你們在這個未達良好的這個部分要好好的去因應過去這個丙跟丁的這個層次因為丁就會被解僱了嘛或解聘嘛對不對丁通常是因為行為啦"},{"start":6212.967,"end":6217.209,"text":"因為在過去人數也不多啦 全國的這個比例非常的低嘛對不對 比較擔心的是說那這樣子三等的話 那這個第三等大家會不會很擔心說只要錄到這一等 那就會面臨這個可能被解聘的這個比例就會 機率會變得比較高 這是本席其實關心的這個問題"},{"start":6237.017,"end":6246.382,"text":"我認為比例不會比較高因為過去你看各個機關在平等的運用上也非常的謹慎大概每一萬人裡面可能只有幾位"},{"start":6247.338,"end":6275.172,"text":"那也有很多人認為說公部門好像一進來就不會再出去所以可以這個不用再講究自己的表現我們也希望不要讓人家有這樣的批評所以我們還是要有這樣的機制去激勵大家說你至少要達到一個符合預期的程度基本的工作好那這樣的話但是我們這樣這個部分你說擔心它會過度寬爛我認為也不至於我們從過去食物的經驗上每一年會吃到餅"},{"start":6276.272,"end":6295.721,"text":"也是100多人在20多萬 相近30萬的公務同仁裡面也只有100多人會拿到餅這個比例是非常低的那我想那個也是以警惕為主那整個過程有一個嚴謹的程序這一年以年尾會打到餅在這過程中必然已經有各種訪談有各種提醒跟關心"},{"start":6296.261,"end":6322.012,"text":"那我想可能在執行的機制上看你們用什麼樣子的方式能夠讓大家不會對於四等改成三等然後在第三等這個未達良好的這個部分會變成本席這邊所擔心的這個解聘的人數或者是解聘的可能性又會變高那這其實對文官的穩定可能是一個比較大的衝擊我們會說明主條的時候大家會看到是一個很嚴謹的程序"},{"start":6322.972,"end":6344.094,"text":"好那接下來但是這個部分其實也是還蠻高度仰賴主管的平和那所以本席想要問一下說那就這個部分新的這個方法這主管平和的這個比例還是很高嗎其實考機本來就還有一個考機委員會他有各級的主管跟首長在做一個評估"},{"start":6344.938,"end":6369.13,"text":"所以這個部分基本上我們可能比較關心的是或許在Top的這個管理者的人數去決定更大一部分的這個中低階的這個工作人員所以是不是這個部分也應該做一個考量跟處理跟因應也就是說其實您說主管這邊做一個平和然後考經理委員會做個平和"},{"start":6369.85,"end":6395.085,"text":"但是就上下左右或者是這個各方的一個平和是不是也應該在或許你們過之後的一些事情的細則內容上也可以再訂定就以免所謂主管的權力過大或者是這個委員會的組成組成結構上所以這個部分我覺得應該是在實際執行上需要再更細緻一點"},{"start":6395.785,"end":6416.228,"text":"是委員就提醒是啦我想大家會有一點一直在原來的加一等之分的那個概念裡面有很多擔心但是你講說未來在實務上如果這樣改下去的話其實機關要決定的就是誰是真的達到未達良好的少數人以及誰是真的表現優異的這個優秀的那一級其他的部分同仁就都是"},{"start":6417.189,"end":6440.692,"text":"兩好的狀況那本席這邊也要再提出一個問題就是說那請問那個你們是不是有評估三年內兩次未達良好及免職那對公務人員的這個工作權文官的這個中立或依法行政的衝擊的一個評估那接下來是沒有達到良好的評定標準是不是這次你們在細則裡面都已經有訂定了那"},{"start":6442.573,"end":6471.833,"text":"那比較有意義的公務員或者是依法行政的公務員那大家認知上不同的時候那對於這麼嚴重的一個結果那你們的整體評估是什麼那因為我們在其他領域我們看到這個教師法修法之後校士會議的這個制度引發很多爭議那反倒很多老師會被這種程序被壓垮所以是不是這個部分你們有一個比較完整的評估來因應本席剛才講的這個可能的情形呢"},{"start":6472.293,"end":6485.721,"text":"跟委員報告 剛剛秘書長也提到你要打一個同仁當年度未打良好本來我們就要法定的試遊有一套程序在完整走了那如果說第一年改完以後再請他改善"},{"start":6486.741,"end":6505.214,"text":"即使改善要六個月以後還有一套評估的機制那如果假如說第一次通過了在這次的法裡面都比較明定以前的法還沒有這麼明定那如果說如果他第一次通過就第三年三年裡面又突然出現兩次我們認為是真的已經是有點是"},{"start":6506.515,"end":6512.399,"text":"是相同的樣態啦對不對不同的樣態應該有一些比較寬鬆的考量拿來這個東西拿來做什麼大家擔心的事情我們不認為會這樣子啦本席在這邊最主要是關心不想因為這樣子的衝擊導致一些寒蟬的濫用寒蟬的作用整個制度被濫用的情況所以本席這邊先做一個提醒"},{"start":6532.97,"end":6546.897,"text":"那接下來是我們最近對於這個霸凌的問題在各界都有一些討論那其實霸凌也不一定說這個單方面的認知啦所以本席想要在這邊請教保訓會那兩位可以先請回謝謝"},{"start":6551.075,"end":6575.798,"text":"那保訓會的這個部分還有這個培訓發展處都有代表那本席這邊才請教說那未來在公務人員的訓練當中你們怎麼樣去強化職場的友善跟職場霸凌的一個防制因為我相信這個意識有了之後那我們在法規上訂定可是很多實際的樣態跟狀態不是每個人都可以及時跟得上"},{"start":6576.238,"end":6602.66,"text":"那我知道上課或者是讓資訊的這個讓大家了解是一種方式所以你們未來在這個發展性的訓練方案裡面還有在晉升官等的法定訓練當中那有沒有將這樣子你們如何將這樣子的課程放進去或者是你們打算要怎麼放讓大家能夠在很快的時間內去充分了解不管你是主管也好或者是你是一般的這個公務人員也好"},{"start":6603.14,"end":6627.152,"text":"那怎麼樣相互的一個認知在一個比較平衡的狀態上我們知道霸凌的出現那當然各方會有認知但我們都不希望因為一個社會的風向而導致大家的這個不公平那面對這樣的個案其實都蠻細緻的所以你們如何去處理本席現在觀察到的大家有這樣子的意識那我們在法上也訂定可是"},{"start":6628.212,"end":6655.941,"text":"生活跟工作很多時候還沒有趕上目前這個有一些個案的這個發生那個案的發生其實裡面相關的人可能都有他一些看法那你們如何因應這樣子的情況不要在這個過程當中導致不管你是什麼樣未接的人可能會有一些不被公平對待的狀況那你們目前怎麼處理這個狀況而且要在很快的時間內"},{"start":6657.528,"end":6678.866,"text":"有關那個培訓的部分的話事實上有關職場霸凌防治這個部分目前保訓會的話就是在我們職場的法定訓練裡面包括剛考進來的這個基礎訓練或者是香港委員這是一般啦那我本期問的比較這個再具體一點你們如何納入這個保障法還有安全衛生防治職場"},{"start":6679.847,"end":6708.038,"text":"不法的這個侵害那你們的內容是哪一些那你們有沒有包含一些實際案例的分析還有主管應該了解的責任那我們避免權利在一個社會氛圍下被濫用所以你們在這個部分是有沒有什麼比較具體的一個訓練就是說在我們這些相關的訓練裡面你剛剛委員所提到這些相關的個案都會在我們的教案裡面來跟不管是基層的同仁或者是高階的主管來做宣導"},{"start":6709.518,"end":6733.29,"text":"那本席就提醒啦 希望你們在這個個案上的一個宣導不要留於一方的這種比較集體的社會氛圍的一個現象所以應該用更細緻的一個處理去做個案的一些分析那最重要的就是說友善職場是我們公務體系可不可以留住人才很重要的一個平台"},{"start":6734.15,"end":6752.627,"text":"但是你們的課程的設計也應該很具體的分析那在這個內容上不留於這個個案相關的人員對他有不平等對待的一個結果這本席在這邊先做一個提醒 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝 那接下來我們有請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":6767.393,"end":6782.141,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長有請秘書長我們行政院人事總署 今天來的是陳處長行政院人事總署陳處長"},{"start":6787.421,"end":6813.833,"text":"秘書長跟陳處長我想今天的這個整個考機法的一個修訂如果來再去做結合說現在整個公務人員的一個環境來一併的去做思考的話那可能會得到一個更多的一個啟發那高普考的報名人數比如說今年再創新低那再創新低的話就比去年又少了快4000"},{"start":6815.294,"end":6830.104,"text":"也就是說整個文官體系是對於要報考的人對於一般民眾來講的話那個吸引力似乎人數少了4000就代表降低了嘛代表降低了以後就是說這個可能"},{"start":6831.311,"end":6843.923,"text":"大家就認為說在公務機關裡面那個地方的一個發展可能跟民間來做比較的話就會又比較低了那我來請教我們人事總署這個地方人總家就說你們高普考的年數你們這樣連續"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}