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頁由院會交付本會審查經會議主席徵詢在場委員同意後決議增列為討論第二 88至90案討論事項一 審查及繼續審查性別平等工作法部分條文修正草案等117案二 審查及繼續審查就業保險法部分條文修正草案等90案"},{"start":1763.953,"end":1773.271,"text":"本次會議由勞動部部長洪聲翰說明性別平等工作法由委員邱慧如等三人提出修正動議等十案就業保險法也各有十案"},{"start":1777.372,"end":1787.378,"text":"決議性別平等工作法部分條文修正查案等117案審查結果如下依照行政院提案通過第二條第三條第17條第21條及第40條條文而維持現行條文第9條第23條及第24條三不予增訂委員范雲等17人提案增訂第20條至1條文及對應提案條文"},{"start":1796.424,"end":1807.034,"text":"2.委員翁曉琳等22人提案增訂第21條之一條文3.委員王玉敏等20人提案增訂第24條之一條文4.保留行政院提案第15條16條增訂第16條之一增訂第23條之一及對應提案條文2.台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1814.019,"end":1837.577,"text":"提案增订第16条之二及对应提案条文三委员范芸等17人提案第19条第20条及对应提案条文四委员黄建豪等21人提案增订第19条之一及对应提案条文二性别工作平等法部分条文修正草案等117案另择其继续审查三就业保险法部分条文修正草案等90案审查结果如下"},{"start":1838.377,"end":1843.621,"text":"1.赵行政院提案通过增订第九条之一及增订第二第32条之一2."},{"start":1843.621,"end":1849.845,"text":"第三条赵伟人赖瑞雍等18人及伟人郑天才等16人提案通过3."},{"start":1849.845,"end":1854.548,"text":"第四条赵伟人赖瑞雍等18人及伟人郑天才等16人提案通过4."},{"start":1854.548,"end":1861.273,"text":"第五条赵伟人林思敏等20人伟人赖瑞雍等18人及伟人牛许婷等16人提案通过5."},{"start":1861.273,"end":1866.496,"text":"第十二条赵伟人林思敏等20人伟人赖瑞雍等18人及伟人郑天才等16人提案通过"},{"start":1867.677,"end":1894.104,"text":"第十七條照為奈瑞榮及委員鄭天才等十六人提案通過七、第十八條照為黃秀芳等四人所提修正動議通過如下第十八條符合失業己父勤領條件於失業己父勤領期間屆滿前受雇工作並依規定參加本保險為被保險滿三個月以上者得向保險人申請按其尚未勤領之失業己父金額之百分之六十一次發給提早就業獎處津貼"},{"start":1896.955,"end":1908.318,"text":"8.第34條照委員鄭天才等16人提案通過9.第38條之一照委員王玉敏等19人委員賴瑞榮等18人及委員鄭天才等16人提案通過10.維持現行條文第6條第13條第16條第30條及第38條11.不予增訂委員范瑩等16人提案增訂第8條之一"},{"start":1916.3,"end":1930.621,"text":"文憲一奉等十九人提案 增訂第十九條之三級對應提案條文十二保留行政院提案第十條 第十一條增訂第十九條之二增訂第十九條之三級對應提案條文二委員王玉敏等十九人提案第二十條及"},{"start":1931.502,"end":1932.162,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1956.206,"end":1980.152,"text":"好 議事錄確定本日會議議程為審查委員徐巧欣等19人名據《陰害防治法》第26條條文修正草案等17案接著我們來介紹在場的委員好 王振旭委員沈敬輝委員王育民委員林倩琦委員"},{"start":1982.537,"end":2010.558,"text":"接下來我們介紹我們的列席官員衛生福利部石崇良部長國民健康署沈敬芬署長食品藥物管理署江志剛署長內政部警政署行政組邱顯良副組長刑事警察局經濟科徐明古科長毒品查緝中心魏子祥偵查員"},{"start":2012.928,"end":2037.551,"text":"財政部官務署郭寬淵組長國庫署袁旭傑副署長負稅署王俊龍專門委員教育部綜合規劃師張金署副司長學生事務及特殊教育師鄭文堯專門委員"},{"start":2040.547,"end":2063.204,"text":"國民及學籤教育署林如榮專門委員法務部汪南君參事主任檢察官林少葉經濟部商業發展署陳蜜舜副署長國際貿易署郭珍怡副組長標準檢驗局"},{"start":2068.735,"end":2085.908,"text":"李源均科長交通部公共運輸及監理師趙敬偉專門委員數位發展部數位發展署林俊秀署長數位產業署平台經濟組施維仁組長法治處陳明宏專門委員"},{"start":2096.181,"end":2120.012,"text":"資源管理師陳業信與代理科長大陸委員會法政處楊玉靜專門委員金融檢理管理委員會銀行局嚴嘉瑩專門委員海洋委員會海巡署情報局黃勇張參議員"},{"start":2122.674,"end":2144.106,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會網際網路傳播辦公室李嘉玲檢認事長環境部徐旭成參事大氣環境師陳佩如濟政環境管理署陳敬利濟政"},{"start":2149.38,"end":2156.434,"text":"好 現在我們請提案委員說明提案要職每位委員兩分鐘首先請王一鳴委員"},{"start":2163.311,"end":2173.644,"text":"主席各位行政官員大家好那今天有關於煙害防治法的修法個人覺得非常的重要主要是針對現在電子煙氾濫的問題那已經是對很多的未成年人造成健康的危害"},{"start":2180.413,"end":2187.483,"text":"甚至現在連國小生都有人持有電子菸並吸食如果我們根據政府的統計在112年其實整個相安通報的電子菸的數據才237件但到了114年的時候"},{"start":2196.195,"end":2201.556,"text":"已經高達1692件暴增了7倍而今年以來到5月底為止也有1050件那不斷高升的數據讓人家對於電子煙現在在校園氾濫的情況的確是非常的憂心因此我們修法"},{"start":2215.2,"end":2227.268,"text":"從嚴加以懲處是有其必要那第一個呢就是過去持有電子菸他其實是沒有這個罰則的那現在新增的包括行政院提出來版本持有就是會處罰不會造成執法上的漏洞這個本席非常的贊成"},{"start":2231.991,"end":2248.928,"text":"第二個就是我們從這個源頭的牟利的地下供應鏈跟源頭也應該要與以這個嚴厲的打擊目前只有行政法這是不夠的所以這次呢徵定了刑事責任加重他的刑責我們要向上源頭打擊才可以讓這些電子煙氾濫的情況可以降低最後一點"},{"start":2256.543,"end":2279.433,"text":"本席提出来的版本里面呢就是特别有针对未成年的部分应该要加强教育现在对于持有都是罚这个三万到十万以下的罚还然后都要没入销毁但是对于这个未成年人呢本席认为戒烟教育还是是非常的重要因此在我的版本里面呢"},{"start":2279.901,"end":2292.652,"text":"希望這個教育先行他如果持有也一定要這個沒入銷毀但是希望可以搭配教育的部分讓青少年未成年人真正的戒除這樣的陰影維護他們的健康謝謝好接下來請林倩琦委員說明"},{"start":2306.535,"end":2330.855,"text":"主席佛黑同仁媒体朋友大家好本席在这边提出来这个冤害防治法部分条文的修正草案主要的目的是在强化类烟品以及未经核准指定烟品的源头管理跟流通的一个管制借此来避免这样子的状况成为新兴毒品滥用的一个载体"},{"start":2331.375,"end":2354.015,"text":"那么危害青少年的健康跟社会的一个整个安全那么近年来这个类烟品及其组合的原件被不法分子利用然后称入依托米纸等毒品那么制成俗称的丧失烟弹的产品那么也透过网络交易私下转浪或实体的一个场所流通造成新兴毒品滥用快速扩散"},{"start":2354.716,"end":2366.83,"text":"那麼相關的毒品案件以及毒價的案件因此而大幅的增加那這已經不是只有煙害防治的問題也是國民健康青少年保護還有道路安全跟治安的問題那麼現在的煙害防治法雖然已經將"},{"start":2371.576,"end":2387.438,"text":"禁止製造輸入販賣供應展示以及廣告類菸品及未經核准的這個指定菸品來這個禁止但是食物上相關的產品常常透過持有轉讓私下流通的方式來規避"},{"start":2388.479,"end":2395.808,"text":"查緝那導致執法沒有辦法有效阻斷市場的一個擴大因此呢本席在這邊來修正第15條將持有納入禁止的範圍也配合擴大主管機關的調查權限那麼在另外26條32條還有37條我們提高了製造輸入"},{"start":2408.883,"end":2433.995,"text":"持有販賣展示以及供應行為的罰還的額度那麼因此也來藉此來加強營業場所負責人以及供應人的管理責任那我們希望能夠建構更完整的一個防毒網從源頭流通跟供應端全面來管理來阻斷類煙品成為毒品的載體來保護青少年維護社會安全那請大家來支持本案謝謝接下來請陳金輝委員說明"},{"start":2443.223,"end":2468.803,"text":"主席各位列席的委員官員大家好今天我要提的是煙害防治法第15條的修正案講白一點就是電子煙光是持有就應該要罰這次有這麼多的版本在研修煙害防治法就是因為現在的法律有一個很大的漏洞我們都看到了現行規定只罰使用可是第一線的這個員警啊機場人員在現場比如說看到車子的最前座友"},{"start":2469.383,"end":2488.925,"text":"或者是拿著只是拿著就沒有任何一條法可以罰他抓到了也只能放人這樣子的法第一線人員是沒有辦法執行的那更讓我們比較擔心的就是兒小這幾年有太多太多的小朋友整天呢在學校的附近或巷子裡網路上也放了非常多炫耀的影片"},{"start":2489.645,"end":2505.576,"text":"手上人手一支可是這些電子菸裡面到底裝的是什麼化學的成分沒有人知道他沒有管理沒有監督成分不明來源也不明大家都不知道在吸什麼孩子更不知道是在嚴重的傷害他們的身心健康"},{"start":2506.497,"end":2530.339,"text":"這幾年新興毒品最愛的偽裝就是電子喪屍煙彈把毒品包裝成一顆一顆的煙彈混進校園根據警政署的數字光是今年前四個月全國查到的毒價案件就有4700多件比去年同期暴增近三倍而12到17歲的青少年毒品嫌疑犯一年之間更是增加了122%"},{"start":2532.06,"end":2558.997,"text":"所以我們到目前還不知道有多少孩子已經有這個成癮的抽菸習慣並且影響健康所以今天我們要來修這條法一點都不困難也是有社會共識很多委員都有共識就是把持有這兩字補進去讓警察主管機關在看到電子煙或來路不明的煙彈的時候可以罰也可以查從源頭把這些東西擋下來最後想特別感謝邱正軍委員當初一起把這個問題點出來"},{"start":2560.838,"end":2575.687,"text":"讓大家知道原來我們法律有這麼一個離譜的漏洞以後我們不能再讓小朋友讓孩子拿著一個不知道裡面裝了什麼有毒化學物質的東西往嘴巴裡送這條就希望我們可以大家一起讓他成功謝謝接下來請我們的衛生福利部時部長病安說明時間10分鐘"},{"start":2590.377,"end":2604.559,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位女士先生那麼今天成大院這個安排呢對於這個委員所提的淹害防治法的部分條文修正草案共17案來進行說明那麼"},{"start":2606.081,"end":2621.956,"text":"基於這個保障國民健康跟公共安全的立場行政院也已經通過本部所提的煙害防治法的部分條文修正草案目前已經送至大院等待排審"},{"start":2622.757,"end":2643.874,"text":"那所以以下我先就這一次的行政院的版本也做簡要的說明希望未來能夠併案審查那麼首先就是全面要落實源頭的嚇阻阻絕非法的供應鏈那麼針對製造輸入販賣展示或供應這個類菸品也就是所謂的電子菸還有它的組合元件都"},{"start":2645.075,"end":2668.878,"text":"陣列刑事處罰那麼對於未稅犯及僱主也並罰規定那麼希望從源頭總共徹底的去瓦解這個違法的產業鏈那麼其次就是強化這個行政的管理作為那麼消弭違法的持有像之前幾位委員所提除了刑責之外那麼對於持有者持有這個類菸品"},{"start":2670.359,"end":2690.735,"text":"就是電子菸跟它的組合原件以及未經核准的指定菸品也就是所謂的加熱菸都一併納入行政法以及末路的條款讓執法機關可以在第一個時間就阻絕犯罪的工具那麼第三是對於目前的銷售"},{"start":2691.596,"end":2711.344,"text":"的管道那麼網路的不法傳播等等那麼來進行這個廣告的限制對於網路網路的違法資訊的傳播那麼本次的修法也明確這個網路的商店以及相關業者的管理義務及資料的保留責任"},{"start":2711.884,"end":2740.818,"text":"並且也導入主管機關得以限制接取或停止解析等屏蔽措施來從源頭加強管理那以下就各位委員共七個版本本部的綜合意見那麼如下第一個有關在剛剛我所提到行政院版本裡面的全面落實源頭嚇阻阻絕非法供應鏈的部分那麼各委員的版本也都有類似的這個提案那麼禁止"},{"start":2742.899,"end":2756.002,"text":"這個類言品的主角源頭那麼我想這個是一致的那麼希望跟各位委員一樣動統來支持通過那麼其次呢在行政管制的部分那麼也一樣剛剛這個"},{"start":2758.463,"end":2776.055,"text":"王一鳴委員還有陳清惠委員也都提到對於持有是上次我們在陰害防治法修法的時候只對實用者有行政處分那麼對於持有沒有罰則所以這一次把持有就納入了罰則"},{"start":2778.337,"end":2801.417,"text":"的對象並且我們建議也提高它相對應的應有法則這個修法的一致性是相當高不過有部分的版本有提出對於這個末路的這個電子菸有30日的銷毀以及送檢的規範那麼考慮到證物保全那麼以及全面的送驗會衝擊到這個檢驗量能的問題屆時也再請委員審酌"},{"start":2805.64,"end":2828.253,"text":"那麼第三個在杜絕網路不法傳播的部分呢那各委員也都有類似那麼對於這個網際網路的阻絕的規定那麼這個也競表同意那麼未來在主條的時候呢再來做一些文字的建議那最後呢有部分的委員版本會希望修訂這個水淹的定義還有"},{"start":2831.948,"end":2860.334,"text":"這個健康福利捐的調整機制那麼以及呢專攻出口菸品的例外規定那麼還有這個這個有害排放濃度的逐年降低等等那這些都會分別涉及到菸酒管理法還有其他部會全責那麼需要通盤的來做討論跟規劃屆時呢再請各位委員審酌那麼以上這個的報告再請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2862.426,"end":2886.224,"text":"好 謝謝施部長的說明現在開始詢答就以下宣告一 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報二 本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘三 10點半截止發言登記四 委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":2887.124,"end":2897.408,"text":"5 暫定10點半 休息10分鐘6 尋例本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位林月群召委進行詢答麻煩部長好 有請石部長另外一張"},{"start":2913.14,"end":2916.422,"text":"我們要去修正我們的藥事法的第六條"},{"start":2930.811,"end":2959.759,"text":"很多藥品納入尤其事實上是人工生產流產藥跟事後避孕藥要去納入藥品的追溯或者是追蹤系統管理我們不是不支持說藥品要來做管理可是當然這次在事後避孕藥納入到藥品追溯的時候有沒有去考慮到有些人像年輕的女性未成年的女性外籍移工或者是被性伴侶控制的人甚至被性侵他們第一時間碰到一些事情甚至因為年輕"},{"start":2961.294,"end":2968.279,"text":"不知道怎麼拒絕或者是不敢求助或者事實上是也不希望人家知道他的狀況"},{"start":2969.167,"end":2993.472,"text":"所以呢第一時間當然是去藥房去買這個適合病人用藥然後呢他又比較狀況比較特殊72小時內服用才有效果在所以在這樣狀況底下甚至我們要考慮到假日跟偏鄉的婦產科可能沒有開診如果一定要用處方藥的話所以就想問政府如果為了用藥安全加強追溯是否也有能夠"},{"start":2994.433,"end":3022.931,"text":"也有同步提出合法快速保密的取得的機制否則有時候用藥管理我們大家都支持可是會不會堵住真的有需要藥的人拿不到所以對於你們2016年食藥署就開始要檢討轉為指示藥然後也提出要訓練我們的藥師然後不得開架單次包裝這些不得廣告加強健康這配套"},{"start":3023.476,"end":3039.988,"text":"那前幾年也說要比照日本的模式來試辦為何沒做好謝謝委員給我們這個機會來跟大家做說明首先這一次所納入這三個藥納入我們的追溯管理系統其實這個"},{"start":3041.629,"end":3062.221,"text":"這個預告啦還不是馬上就要做那麼未來呢要這個實施的時候一定會考量到剛剛委員所提到的這些用藥的需要那麼完整的配套之後才會實施這個先跟大家說明清楚而且這個系統現在目前已經納入500多橡皮所以這個是我們最近要預告新增這三個"},{"start":3063.041,"end":3084.098,"text":"那第二個呢也要借這個機會釐清這三個藥屬性並不完全相同那麼以第一個藥就是我們常說的Cytotec這個不是事後避孕丸它是通常搭配RU486的墮胎藥在使用的它不是荷爾蒙它是一個前列腺激素所以這個是搭配墮胎在使用的"},{"start":3084.358,"end":3105.417,"text":"所以這個呢應該要小心它並不是所謂的事後緊急避孕完單純的使用那另外兩個當然它是屬於這個黃體素啦它是比較高劑量的所以它也不是我們常規的避孕藥這都是事後緊急使用那但是我們也理解這個是有這樣的狀況下可能需要"},{"start":3106.198,"end":3129.229,"text":"因為它有實效性 它的使用 有它的實要性來這個抑制這個排卵受菌所以我想這個未來呢 我們會一併的討論那麼至於呢 確實有些國家世界上有些國家已經把我們另外這兩個所謂的事後單劑使用的就是在性交之後單次使用的高劑量的黃體素這個藥物呢 那麼"},{"start":3132.21,"end":3150.585,"text":"改列為所謂的指示指示要啦那我們也會來討再研議一下應該很快就會有結論那麼是不是參考這個日本的模式在某一個範圍之下呢來有限度的開放這個當然要有配套因為這個這個"},{"start":3152.786,"end":3168.191,"text":"還是有可能會有一些其他的這個副作用或者是這個使用之後可能發生的狀況這個我想我們會持續的跟大家討論之後這之前也前幾年也說要做可是到現在都所以說有沒有時程"},{"start":3170.684,"end":3197.321,"text":"時辰我們已經有開過幾次的會議跟委員報告這件事情我去年2月27號到任之後3月份其實我們就這個會議就開了所以我們就啟動了所謂的我們要做所謂模式從我們藥師的指示到我們醫師的共同的照護因為雙方其實都有看到前面端看到它的方便性後面端看到其實的副作用所以我希望能夠間接起來所以我要問時辰"},{"start":3198.602,"end":3222.672,"text":"我們現在是在進行當中整個研議的我們會用最快的速度往這個轉捩方向去的我們希望能夠盡快我想跟委員說明就是在這個配套沒有一起搭配的時候我們不會去冒然把這個預告就把它實施那我們盡可能在這個下半年把它做出一個最後的方案因為時間也很快"},{"start":3224.933,"end":3252.936,"text":"接下來就要來問就是部長過去我們的煙災防治法主要規範是使用那現在修法草案又進一步持有我們很樂見那可是根據我們的國建署的統計過去三年多來個性是衛生局的查緝使用成案的違規案件只有三千多件平均一天大概看起來是讓不到四件如果扣除我們的販賣案件的話真正吸食電子煙而取締的人數平均一天恐怕大概只有一兩件可是"},{"start":3253.756,"end":3273.809,"text":"如果說今天現行你的實務做法是請警政機關來協助去做查緝那後再發函給我們的衛福部去做處罰我想請教一個比較實際的問題如果今天民眾檢舉有人持有或是使用電子菸可是等到衛生局的人到場違規人搞不好就已經離開了那這個案件怎麼處理啊"},{"start":3274.951,"end":3299.805,"text":"我想也跟委員說明事實上在這個修法之後厭害防治法修法之後 迄今這近三年的時間已經查實體去查的案件就超過一百萬次所以各縣市衛生局我們都有特別的補充人力為了這個案子我們一年也編了大概一億"},{"start":3302.688,"end":3315.784,"text":"906萬去補充專門做這件事情的查緝人員的人力那當然他這個還是有可能不足所以搭配其他的我問的是說如果衛生局的人到場可是違規人已經走的話你怎麼處理"},{"start":3317.803,"end":3343.826,"text":"我們可以看現場的事情我們還是會比如說我們現在如果修法之後那這個就是我們就會跟警政單位大家一起看他現場還有沒有可能的這個循跡可以繼續去查甚至執法人員主要是這個從製造販賣端我們會去溯源就假設執法人員到現場因為電子煙加熱煙本來體積就很小如果放在口袋包包那你也沒辦法說那你要收我身嗎那你們又會怎麼處理"},{"start":3346.772,"end":3373.284,"text":"如果有相關的這個證據就是他已經有可能有持有還是什麼的時候還是可以處理的所以我建議你們要跟警政署真的要好好討論怎麼去做那部長近年來我們電子煙快速的滲入到校園裡邊也越來越嚴重那根據教育部的校案資料通報高中以下學生涉及到攜帶或使用電子煙的案件112年只有237件"},{"start":3377.184,"end":3393.161,"text":"114年的時候已經增加到1672件了那短短的3年就增加了7倍到115年到這個5月底那案件已經達到去年的6成才短短5個月就已經達到去年整年度的6成"},{"start":3393.921,"end":3413.308,"text":"而且也常聽到學生在講說學長說電子業呢可以舒緩壓力然後大家都在抽我不抽就是沒辦法融進團體而且我覺得電子業很帥所以我覺得除了查緝跟裁罰之外有沒有跟教育部去做討論提供你們有沒有辦法提供一些針對不同年齡層的一些教材來讓"},{"start":3414.508,"end":3431.205,"text":"孩子知道說電子煙的不安全性是什麼然後而且可能會造成你骨釘成癮的甚至會造成接觸其他毒品的入口部長這邊有在做嗎有我們另外跟教育部有推動一個校園的煙害防治計畫那這個也協助"},{"start":3434.288,"end":3458.406,"text":"這個教育部在相關的課程內容裡面有一些素材包含電子菸的危害這些有納入在教材裡面教育部有這個到時候看你們進步的效果是如何到時候是不是可以請你們提供一份報告給我這次菸害防治法修法新增規定對於違法的類菸品無論何人"},{"start":3460.345,"end":3486.948,"text":"持有的話就是沒收或沒入立法目的我非常的支持就希望不要讓電子煙再回到學生手上可是上個禮拜我到讀方中心去請教第一線的實務的時候他們反映目前學校如果發現學生攜帶電子煙大多是由老師暫時保管再通知家長到校領回可是實務上卻一再發生這種狀況就家長把電子煙帶回家後又給小孩"},{"start":3487.301,"end":3507.63,"text":"因為有些家庭並不覺得這是問題隔天孩子又帶到學校來現在一直在沒收一直在帶回的惡性循環所以想問部長為老師在校園發現學生攜帶電子煙後正確的處理流程到底有沒有規劃是老師暫時先保管再交由衛生局還是由警察地方衛生局單位到校辦理沒入"},{"start":3507.97,"end":3534.74,"text":"有我們現在也跟教育部討論這個重新這個流程所以他只要先暫時保管之後就會改通知我們衛生局的稽查人員那就會改成就變成末路了所以這個會搭配著所以我覺得盡快把流程規劃好那謝謝部長接下來我們請我們的林俊秀署長署長這邊我要問一下網路販售電子菸的一些議題因為現行現在煙害防止法第30條第31條有規定廣告業"},{"start":3537.881,"end":3558.389,"text":"傳播媒體業者這是修法新增的第15條之一的徵定我們的網路業者的平台責任要求網路平台對違法資訊要善盡管理人的注意義務各位我想請教一般民眾自己上傳的內容那個跟商業廣告到底要怎麼區分如果有人在IG Facebook分享自己"},{"start":3559.051,"end":3584.233,"text":"抽電子菸的照片影片甚至介紹電子菸的口味這到底算不算一般使用者生成內容還是屬於應該受到管制的廣告那這部分UGC的部分目前還沒有認定是廣告那可以這樣做嗎那我就大肆這樣子在網路上去分享"},{"start":3585.134,"end":3610.563,"text":"不過這個按照院內防治法如果是違法的話當然這個我們平台業者需要配合下架的那算我再進一步問就是說這次也是又針對15條之一平台業者建立違法資訊風險的管理機制甚至提到主動監測所以想問署長說平台的下架責任的界限到底在哪裡是沒有主動下架就會受到處罰還是被動通知不下架才會受到處罰"},{"start":3611.955,"end":3627.89,"text":"目前我看的條文是他有避風港的條文所以是他只要善盡善良管理者跟一些下架的一些義務的話他是不會被被處罰的那商業信言針對商業信言論還是一般民眾上傳內容都會去做"},{"start":3628.993,"end":3647.866,"text":"我們目前其實UGC的部分我們有掃描那如果是違反相關規定的話我們會依請這個相關綜合法主管機關去處理部長我就要再問你這整個條文看完我還是不太清楚平台的責任界限到底在哪裡這些都是未來執法的核心問題國建署是不是能夠訂一個"},{"start":3649.247,"end":3676.842,"text":"基準 否則的話 今天速發部要做 或是你要請誰來做呢執法的指引 讓平台業者 民眾及第一線執法人員都有一致的那個依循的一個標準好 那個跟委員說明 這分兩塊 一個是是我們一般所謂的電子平台那電子平台我們會加重這個電子平台業者的管理責任 管理義務那以及配合的責任剛剛提到的"},{"start":3677.182,"end":3694.713,"text":"他必須善盡他的管理他要有自己的這個screening的這個機制類似要建立這樣那麼這才會我們現在其實有一個善良管理人的注意事項那未來我們就會變成這個授權的法規我們修法之後他就會變成授權的法規"},{"start":3695.293,"end":3712.641,"text":"那這個我們在今年的1月13號已經發布了執行陰害防治法監測網際網路案件應注意事項那個就是要求業者要搭配的這個義務準則那另外這個個人的部剛剛我也特別提到個人"},{"start":3713.001,"end":3741.967,"text":"但是你個人的這個在你的這個IG也好或者是Facebook也好有在誘使別人這個吸菸或者是促銷行為的話那一樣的會有這個陰害防治法的罰則我覺得還是要有一個對裁罰的基準讓人家可以有依據最後還是希望部長負責查緝的單位你必須要有些查緝的準則跟我們的執法指引他請衛福部跟惠同教育部去訂定一些"},{"start":3742.699,"end":3755.747,"text":"查獲學校內的電子菸的標準的作業程序請衛福部也一個月內是不是提出有關我們的病院要管制影響評估報告好謝謝謝謝委員我們照辦好謝謝趙委的發言也謝謝官員的答詢現在請陳靜慧發言謝謝主席謝謝各位委員官我想請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":3774.836,"end":3798.807,"text":"陳委員好部長因為我看到有這個圖卡所以我知道你週末要出席這個活動但我現在跟你說你知道昨天發生什麼事昨天下班時間教育部的小編啊還在辛苦他把教育部的社群變成部長自己的社群那等一下你有休息時間可以看一下他正在被大出真蹤這個鄭英耀現在已經是全國老師的公敵"},{"start":3800.256,"end":3818.574,"text":"那我不知道你跟他同台會不會波及到你這是第一點那第二點呢我是想問你你到場以後會不會突然宣布什麼新政策或是說最近都不省預算什麼津貼發不出來我也建議你不要講了因為最近講的都會被嘲笑你回答我你會不會講"},{"start":3819.355,"end":3840.668,"text":"不會啦 我們主要還是做政策的說明就是我們最近有一些新的政策其實也都已經公開的那只是不一定所有的人都清楚所以我們是利用這個機會呢那麼跟民眾來做宣導所以我們大家都可以找你來宣導嗎可以 歡迎所以你會宣布最近的那18項政策是不是"},{"start":3841.767,"end":3862.42,"text":"我都會看直播因為不是本部夜館的我不會講我們主要才是提到我們有一些新的政策比如說我們7月1號開始這個新生兒的篩檢就全面補助新增這些讓大家清楚還有一些我們增加的補助產前的遺傳諮詢等等這些那就問你嘛"},{"start":3863.14,"end":3871.307,"text":"你的高鐵票是莊進城出的嗎 因為他以前也造謠過辦不出護照 結果外交部還出來澄清說有預算 辦護照沒問題"},{"start":3873.217,"end":3898.497,"text":"你的高鐵票是他出的嗎不是不是你自掏腰包對對對都是我自己的你有學習秘書要跟你去嗎沒有沒有那你這些投影片你的稿是公務員幫你寫的嗎因為我們平常都有這些宣傳稿啦我們有些懶人包啊什麼我們把它拼湊拼湊這樣好我還是提醒你一下因為當天應該會有人讀麥啊跟正音要問問題啊那我希望你不要一起被波及"},{"start":3899.498,"end":3925.38,"text":"好 再來我一定謹言慎行請委員放心希望你不要跟著被出征再來是問你們之前發了一個新聞稿說你們現在對於電子菸的下架率已經99.8%了我想知道這個好像跟大家的數據跟大家的感受度不太一樣請問你的分子分母是什麼你是怎麼計算出來的"},{"start":3927.019,"end":3955.668,"text":"這個要跟委員說明確實這個所謂的這個下架率的概念是說我們跟這個速發部也有合作在這個做網路巡查AI巡查那麼發現有這個關鍵字電子鴛鴦等等這些我們就會進行這個下架或者是遮蔽那我們指的是分母式是說我們網路巡查當有通報的抓到的這個案子誰通報就是跟速發部合作"},{"start":3956.528,"end":3981.214,"text":"要速發部通報喔不是他們會傳訊息給我們就是他們會去做網路的巡查然後巡查知道發現有疑似因為主管機關是我們嘛所以對於疑似的他就會先移給我們讓我們迅速的判斷說這個是違法的所以你的這個數據最後你不知道方不方便一兩週內可以給我可以沒問題我想知道99.8%是怎麼算出來的好"},{"start":3985.635,"end":4014.773,"text":"就是說我們一共查了大概是108萬餘次然後採取108萬對那裡面屬於網路的是這個三萬五千多件然後下架就是完成這個下架的是三萬五千七百萬我們詳細數字108萬然後最後是那個是三年啦三年的時間啦從三年時間你查了108萬然後你現在下架三萬"},{"start":4015.413,"end":4031.123,"text":"不是 網路裡面108萬這個是包含實體稽查跟網路比如說在海關 對然後網路的部分是所以三年來你下架了3萬網路的部分是因為我們從去年才開始進行的"},{"start":4033.024,"end":4055.801,"text":"這114年的1月到今年的5月那麼一共是有網路監測到的是三萬五千多件然後把它下架了99.8嘛那我跟你說昨天呢我隨便到網路上現在我也歡迎在場的人搜尋電子菸隨便都買得到我昨天隨便啊有各種口味的啊然後它有各種名稱啊"},{"start":4057.182,"end":4081.429,"text":"琳瑯滿目啊標榜一些五花八門的還可以加LINE購買這個真的看起來很不像下架率是99%啊我本來想下單但是我怕拿來這邊質詢被你罵我也擔心被詐騙你要不要自己查查看好啊我自己查查看看符不符合你的下架率我們這個如果有這個情形我們立刻就會去處理"},{"start":4083.222,"end":4087.767,"text":"那你等一下搜尋看看那我們再等你兩週內交過來的數據再來這邊你們說要設一個月的緩沖期不會開罰希望大家把自己的違禁品拿過來回收主動繳回避免處罰我想問一下你那個回收桶的設計會是什麼樣子會不會有可能有人回收結果又有人把它拿出來"},{"start":4110.989,"end":4136.689,"text":"對 這個其實這個在新加坡有執行的先例所以我們在參考那現在也在跟環境部在討論因為這裡面有電池的問題所以有安全的問題所以這個我們的設計上一定是只進不出不會隨便又可以又去帶回去那第二個問題是你有沒有問過法務部的意見因為關於這些違禁品的"},{"start":4137.709,"end":4148.436,"text":"回收他都已經知道他手上拿的是違禁品了他最簡單的方式不就丟到垃圾桶嗎按照人性嗎你要用什麼誘因讓他們願意來做回收"},{"start":4150.171,"end":4167.454,"text":"好問題那你要不要問一下法務部你覺得法務部今天如果宣布我們有個新興毒品所以我們希望大家有一個月緩衝期請你把這些違禁的新興毒品繳回來你覺得法務部會告訴你什麼"},{"start":4168.556,"end":4180.668,"text":"對 當然我們這個目的就是希望不要隨便棄置啦因為目前在法還沒有通過之前持有是當然是沒有法則嘛那所以我們是希望我們趕快啟動這個"},{"start":4183.21,"end":4200.797,"text":"這個鼓勵大家拿來我們的回收桶不要亂丟啊你可能要鼓勵方案啊不然一個小朋友他為什麼要冒著風險讓他的家長或是他的老師知道他手上有一個違禁品我們來研議看看怎麼樣讓他能夠你問一下法務部好了好不好好"},{"start":4202.338,"end":4213.576,"text":"再來呢我週末參加了一個兒童死因研討會看了是非常難過那當然因為您是急診出生的所以你一定也知道近5年總共有286位6歲以下兒童嬰兒猝死"},{"start":4217.742,"end":4246.568,"text":"那高達八成是跟他的睡眠環境家庭安全有關那就是229位那裡面最大宗的就是呼吸道的遮蔽還有他睡眠環境的不安全看了是非常的傷心因為這些家長並不是不愛小朋友他們只是不知道原來家裡有這麼危險的環境然後也不知道應該怎麼做這個你都很懂所以我稍微快速講低多當然是因為柔軟的棉被遮到他的口鼻"},{"start":4247.168,"end":4268.53,"text":"再來是他滾到床邊的這些縫隙以至於他已經沒有辦法掙脫翻身還有一種是因為一直哭所以爸媽就把他順勢抱過來大人床上一起睡那就把他蓋住了所以他這些猝死的風險很多時候都是因為父母不知道哪一些日常照顧其實存在危險"},{"start":4270.171,"end":4291.959,"text":"這個相信你應該也知道在芬蘭呢每一個寶寶政府就會發給他一個芬蘭箱那當然裡面他會包括一些育兒的用品物資啊或是教育的文件家庭支持啊這個就是他們的一個政策包含工具兩個combine在一起那這個箱子就變成他很簡易的睡眠空間而且他不貴"},{"start":4293.78,"end":4319.957,"text":"他現在查了一下不到台幣300塊很多我們私人的公司已經有在贈送了那你看6年統計起來有200多位寶寶因為這麼無辜的原因猝死那在這邊是具體給你一個建議啦第一你可能可以考慮裡面的物資你在想想但是會不會覺得一個芬蘭香一個家庭送一個其實也不會很貴"},{"start":4322.168,"end":4341.273,"text":"我們來評估看看不過就像委員所提到的在新生兒的死因裡頭這個意外確實是佔一定的比例那麼我們過去對於新手爸媽這個其實是新手爸媽的一些育兒指導"},{"start":4342.173,"end":4367.893,"text":"那麼過去我們是從兩個管道一個是在我們有這個0到3歲的幼兒專責醫師裡面他會可以提供這個育兒的指導那跟必要的訪視但現在都是申請那個當然不是強制的就是你有需要來提那第二個是我們去年開始也有育兒指導員的培育那這些育兒指導員主要"},{"start":4368.593,"end":4397.853,"text":"去年是只針對低收入戶跟中低收入戶為對象那今年開始我們把它擴大到從那個懷孕七個月以上的爸媽到六歲以下當然以這個一歲以下先優先啦好 那我這邊講一下不再受限於說是低收入戶跟中低收入戶我這邊給你一些建議啦那我們未來會逐步擴大我們去研究了一下芬蘭的這個醫療保健跟兒童福利政策它是明確的入法所以每一個小寶寶出生前"},{"start":4398.493,"end":4425.802,"text":"他就要有育兒指導員帶著這個芬蘭香去訪視包括他家廚房啊浴室啊或者是他睡覺的環境有沒有什麼問題在出生前就去出生後再去一次那當然你現在可能覺得育兒指導員還不足你幫自己訂的KPI我也覺得有點低畢竟少子化你這樣子115年到119年5%到50%其實是有點低我是想建議您就是育兒指導員當然"},{"start":4427.182,"end":4442.263,"text":"催加中低收入戶還要再加上早產兒的家庭以及高風險認成比如說認成糖尿病認成高血壓等等最終是希望你擴大到所有的家庭那一個月內可不可以延擬"},{"start":4443.384,"end":4462.521,"text":"我想這個很謝謝委員一個提醒當然我們的量能現在還有限是逐步那麼我們預算今年是將近9000多萬那明年我們希望再爭取更高的這個經費來支持育兒指導員但是在有限的資源下我們來訂一些Priority"},{"start":4463.021,"end":4489.984,"text":"哪一些像剛剛你提到的哪一些先優先同時先從新生兒開始因為我們現在訂的範圍很大60歲以下都可以來申請那我們就先從這個新生兒但其實它有個重點出生前去看一次是非常重要的所以你應該把這個育兒訪視員我們好好的來研究一下包含您提的那個芬蘭香的概念等於去第一次訪試有個伴手禮的概念那你"},{"start":4491.125,"end":4513.522,"text":"對 他就增加他的優營會願意接待你那也希望你的KPI可以定高一點因為現在每年一兩萬在掉所以你的5% 10%其實他的比例人數是變少是越來越少的我們先針對一歲以下就是新生兒啦我們先從新生兒開始來把這個優先順位先再調一下先聚焦在這個新手爸媽這裡好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長好 謝謝"},{"start":4521.406,"end":4539.213,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好我們有請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":4542.639,"end":4557.764,"text":"好 邱委員長是 部長我想跟你請教呢就是電子菸相關修法的一些問題那我想請教一件事就是說當然之前電子菸本來只處罰使用那當然就是因為它的載具依託米子附著於上"},{"start":4558.644,"end":4571.032,"text":"到處橫行我們要杜絕這個問題所以現在就是連持有這個行為他一樣都給他網羅進來了那當然如果持有的話從法律修正通過之後我們就會被處以3萬到10萬的罰款那現在有個問題就是說來部長看一下那個PPT就是電子煙跟加熱煙他的外觀"},{"start":4579.977,"end":4601.697,"text":"其實有一個高度相似性所以民眾可能難以區分那如果今天持有電子煙已經變成要處以3到10萬的罰款但是如果是持有合法的加熱煙當然就是不用罰這樣子那會不會民眾沒有辦法辨識以至於誤觸法網那我舉一個例子如果我的朋友送我一個禮物"},{"start":4603.138,"end":4624.895,"text":"我打開來看其實它說的是電子煙但是我的辨識能力辨識出來的是加熱煙那這個東西它也收受了那現在就是在自己的這個支配的範圍之內其實就是持有那請問這樣如果按照我們法律的依據它不就是持有如果被破獲的話不就是要除以3萬到10萬的罰款"},{"start":4626.596,"end":4651.608,"text":"那部長知道我想凸顯的問題是什麼嗎就是民眾辨識的能力請問民眾有足夠的辨識能力嗎這個我們會盡量來加大這個宣導啦因為加熱煙它基本上是有煙柱嘛它要吸的時候它還是有像一個傳統香煙一樣有那個煙槽啦那個電子煙其實是沒有煙槽的"},{"start":4652.168,"end":4670.468,"text":"他那個就是內部的構造外部的構造也許有一些差異但是其實有些人我們每天都在關心這個新聞我們會知道他內部差異但是有一些民眾他其實未必會掌握到這麼精細的資訊跟專業資訊所以部長你剛也提到了嘛就是教育宣導嘛"},{"start":4670.908,"end":4687.729,"text":"所以可能能不能有一些辨識的方法辨識的指引然後透過一些文宣品透過一些那個影片的方式來加強民眾的認知我們在製造各式的素材包含對校園的然後對一般大眾的我們來"},{"start":4689.932,"end":4718.097,"text":"多元的管道那另外想請教一件事那我想電子菸當然現在持有已經變成要處罰了那這個37條之一的罰罰者如果上路之後我相信當然就是要按照3到10萬這樣的遊戲規則來處理那我也注意到說這個衛福部這邊有給予一個月的懸導期就是如果法律正式上路之後在一個月之內如果還持有的話那只沒入"},{"start":4718.877,"end":4739.785,"text":"不處以罰緩但是換言之呢一個月之後如果持有的話季末路也處以罰緩嗎那我現在的問題就是在我解讀上一個月就是過渡期一個月就是宣導期那一個月的宣導期會不會太少因為畢竟不是每個人都在注意社會脈動注意新聞輿情注意修法的結果一個月的這個宣導期會不會太短"},{"start":4740.759,"end":4769.189,"text":"好這個這個屆時在主條的時候我們大家可以來討論不過我們現在已經開始在準備開始宣導那然後我們也在跟好像這個禮拜會跟縣市明天就會跟衛生局來討論怎麼開始設點來回收因為我們也不希望他亂丟啦聽到說對一下子就亂丟那個也造成環境的汙染也不好所以我們現在明天會跟衛生局來討論我們就會開始"},{"start":4771.049,"end":4786.658,"text":"來想辦法看怎麼開始讓他現在就可以開始做不用等到法律通過現在就可以開始來宣導所以您的意思就是說一個月的宣導期可以再往前拉現在其實就可以宣導那當然再評估一下一個月因為畢竟持有跟"},{"start":4787.398,"end":4801.291,"text":"使用已經變成要處罰了嗎那有可能那個觀念上沒有接受到新資訊有可能查之好理 失之千里就變成要被處以三萬的罰款所以思考一個月的長度讓民眾對於法國的適應期能夠有足夠的時間"},{"start":4802.792,"end":4817.931,"text":"那接著第三個問題呢就是想要請教部長因為現在入境的旅客嘛他如果攜帶電子菸的話那現在電子菸當然持有他就會處罰那25條之二就是貴部提出來的這個草案嘛他有區分如果是少量的"},{"start":4818.371,"end":4840.59,"text":"少量的就是行政法200到100萬那如果是非少量的那就是刑事責任就是25條之一的規定刑事責任那現在重點來了少量跟非少量的區別這裡的建立出來的標準就是5條跟不多於500克那現在重點來了就是你現在在海關剛其實有委員提到"},{"start":4841.531,"end":4844.553,"text":"就是我們這些查緝人員他有辦法辨識這個電子煙跟加熱煙的區別嗎這是第一個問題因為他們其實外觀長得都一樣那當然也許查緝的人員執法的人員他們會有未來的專業訓練也許也說不定"},{"start":4860.22,"end":4888.866,"text":"那現在重點來了就是說好第一他們有沒有辨識的能力第二就是說好即使他們有辨識的能力剛剛委員也有提出來他的體積非常的小那我們來看一下這個行李箱裡頭一大堆東西那這麼小的這個電子菸怎麼這樣子大海撈針或者是把它定位出來這是我們的疑問那再來就是國門其實人流非常的多那如果真的要雷力風行的來貫徹這樣的一個條文的話海關有沒有足夠的量能不管是在人力上或設備上"},{"start":4890.094,"end":4914.558,"text":"好跟委員說明當然我們會加大這個宣導避免國人觸法啦不過目前在海關的部分電子菸就是已經是違法現在就在查了那第二個呢加熱菸其實是我們的在陰害防治法裡面叫做指定菸品所以我們指定菸品我們沒有核准的那個也是違法啦所以幾乎在海關呢這兩類都是一起查的"},{"start":4914.738,"end":4943.277,"text":"所以目前已經在做了那我們也有跟這個關務署有討論過那他體積小目前有在做那查緝上的有困難度嗎他怎麼就是先用那個X光先掃描讓他有疑似這個相近的才打開行李就這樣所以初賽是用X光然後然後打開然後如果他行李箱裡頭有例如說5隻我們完全有找出來的能力嗎還是說會肉東肉西5隻變4隻"},{"start":4944.798,"end":4970.801,"text":"因為如果你有一隻被掃到他就會被打開然後做完整的檢查完整的檢查所以體積小如果這樣翻箱倒櫃體積小是沒問題的可以可以因為我們台灣的同仁都很是請說明一下因為這個插隻好禮失隻牽你啦五隻的話呢其實就是20到100萬的罰款那如果是超過五隻的話就是25條之一就是一個刑事責任這樣所以插隻好禮失隻牽你啦"},{"start":4972.942,"end":5000.018,"text":"報告委員在電子菸跟加熱菸的部分其實電子菸我們從107年就開始查緝了其實我們都有做教育訓練如何區別電子菸跟加熱菸然後哪些是屬於那個健康風險評估過的這個我們都有做教育訓練所以請委員放心那剛才講到說如果你查到一支的話那當然我們就會看全部開箱去搜索說是不是還有其他的菸品沒有 有攜帶這樣子"},{"start":5001.539,"end":5023.142,"text":"以上做檢查所以就是幾支都有辦法精確的掌握嗎因為以前是還沒有這個什麼五支行政法然後六支刑事責任那現在其實真的一支支差有可能法律效果差支好理 失支牽理所以這方面我們是不是可以匯後給我們一個你們有能力查緝的一個說明OK 沒問題"},{"start":5024.423,"end":5050.423,"text":"好那這個再來呢請問一下第四個問題就是說當然我們還是有興趣的在來討論25條之二就是說如果呢你第一次被查緝到少量的那處理方式就是行政法除以20萬到100萬但是呢你們的第二項提到說如果呢一年內再犯一年內再犯的話就會是一個刑事責任那我現在這邊有一個圖我很好奇的來請問部長"},{"start":5053.365,"end":5070.944,"text":"你第一次在海關被查到然後呢這個旅客他所接受到的一個結果他就是行政裁罰那我想這行政裁罰裁罰的機關是衛生局那這些資料也在衛生局那現在呢這個旅客如果一年內呢他又再犯了"},{"start":5071.465,"end":5087.152,"text":"那在犯的當下呢請問一下你們有辦法去掌握到他的前案紀錄嗎因為如果他前案紀錄的掌握你們才有辦法移送檢調嗎那請問這前案紀錄的掌握如何掌握有資料的勾結系統存在嗎請說明"},{"start":5088.834,"end":5115.11,"text":"我們應該跟這個關務署這邊會有這個資料的交換主要的紀錄還是會在我們的衛生系統裡面但是不是啊那個當下啊例如說這個當下他已經在翻箱倒櫃了結果發現就是有五條那五條呢他已經不是單純的行政裁罰了他已經是一個刑事責任了那如果你們沒有前面資料的掌握請問當下你們怎麼做出決定要怎麼處理這個個案"},{"start":5119.209,"end":5140.901,"text":"因為你們的第二項就提到說在海關啊那如果一年內再犯因為這就是海關第一線發現的嘛一年內再犯那就是一個刑事責任他是移送啊不是啊你們當下怎麼知道他有前案我說當下在檢查的時候你們他那個公務署查到的他是先把這個案子就移送還是到當地衛生局去開罰"},{"start":5142.142,"end":5157.516,"text":"所以它的系統還是在衛生局送到當地衛生局但是衛生局怎麼開法因為按照你們的法條它不是行政法按照你們的法條它一年內再放它已經是一個如果涉及到行駛的話就會移送減掉所以不需要意思聽起來不需要系統的勾結"},{"start":5159.096,"end":5187.508,"text":"還是有論你第二次嘛第二次才會涉及到刑事嘛所以衛生局發現這個是第二次的他就移送到檢調了我知道但我的意思是在海關的當下他在判斷這是第幾次的時候如果你沒有系統的勾結你怎麼會知道海關是直接先移送衛生局所以不需要掌握前端紀錄他直接下一個動作就是移送衛生局然後就交給衛生局再做進一步的判斷他有系統裡面有如果他這個是第一次那他就開罰他"},{"start":5188.849,"end":5205.902,"text":"罰單就給他如果他是第二次那就移送那現在一個問題就是說那這個需不需要把它落於條文例如說前項請醒前項請醒經那個關務署通知衛生局由衛生局就是涉及刑事責任由關務署因為這個法有一個主管機關嘛"},{"start":5209.364,"end":5234.062,"text":"還有中央主管機關跟地方主管機關所以地方主管機關是衛生局所以它的開罰我們這裡所有的行政法的開立是由地方衛生主管機關所以我現在理解了就是交給地方衛生局去判斷交給地方衛生局去判斷好那我再問一個問題就是說一年內再犯總刑事責任那如果這個人他不是一年內再犯嗎他是兩年再犯"},{"start":5235.403,"end":5240.412,"text":"請問他兩年他一年八個月拿了這個五支進來請問一下效果是什麼"},{"start":5241.738,"end":5271.218,"text":"就是已經超過一年以上嘛對那它的效果是什麼還是行政法還是行政法可是你們的立法理由是說因為第一次不知情國外合法國內非法他不知情所以給他一個空間給他一個再犯的空間再犯才能夠走到這個刑事責任問題是你們的立法理由跟你現在答案抵觸啊他如果兩年後再犯其實他已經不是再犯了那對於這樣的一個案例卻只是走行政法會不會有輕重失衡的問題這是我的疑問"},{"start":5272.518,"end":5296.824,"text":"我們當然在這個立法設計的時候考量的是說自用跟販售意圖啦如果量大那你就是有販售意圖所以我們把它當成是販售所以那個是刑事法那自用的部分我們認為五之以下你這個好像自用所以出犯的話行政法累犯的話再刑事但是這個時間內我們是用一年我懂"},{"start":5299.265,"end":5323.237,"text":"所以有要討論有要再研議一下嗎因為會有這個漏洞會有這個漏洞好來那我們現在請問福布一個月內提供資料就是這些辨識的指引那剛部長也說了文宣品這些的那可能有民眾版那還有專業版給這些執法人員使用的那還有就是邊際查緝的能力到底那個量能的情形的這個現況還有未來要改進的地方"},{"start":5324.498,"end":5340.804,"text":"當然這個勾結系統部長就覺得說不需要嘛因為就是移送給那個地方衛生局地方衛生局再根據他是第幾次然後再來做下一步的動作好以上理解謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝千惠路委員的發言也謝謝各級官員的應答下一位請王育民委員發言"},{"start":5353.188,"end":5359.074,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請那個石部長跟江署長好 有請石部長 江署長好 歐安人早好 部長好這個昨天爆發了非常重大的食安事件中原油脂它在4月份出口出產的一批油脂出現了一級致癌物本填匹超標4倍"},{"start":5380.612,"end":5395.358,"text":"那這件事情我覺得非常的嚴重主要是他的量非常的大因為他這個有1300公噸1300公噸是什麼概念呢如果我們是一個瓶裝有是一公斤的話這等於是130萬"},{"start":5398.942,"end":5421.059,"text":"非常非常的龐大而這一家廠商呢他每日加工可以高達3000公噸的這個黃豆每日精煉600公噸的油品連產量是21萬公噸這個是網路上資料所顯現所以他是國內非常大的一間的這個生產油脂的廠商喔"},{"start":5421.94,"end":5444.495,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下爆發這麼重大的事件這個是4月份他所生產的油4月4號製造4月8號10號出貨是6月30號通報我要問這個部長跟署長到目前為止他這1300公噸的油已經有多少被使用多少下架"},{"start":5446.455,"end":5467.413,"text":"下架的部分我們現在已經全面啟動下架那因為它這個日期比較早它的那個這個製造日期是4月4號就是今年115年的會不會多數已經被使用完畢了應該都已經賣出了啦所以我們現在所以現在下架量是多少到目前為止還有存量有下架的有嗎"},{"start":5468.414,"end":5490.863,"text":"沒有幾乎都是在市面上要去回收了變成要去回收我說那個量你們現在掌握到市面上的量還剩多少還是其實已經使用完畢因為是四月份到現在已經快三個月那因為我們是昨天7月1號發布那個批次跟日期所以我們還要再統計你們現在還沒有掌握到多少數量還沒有多少回來這樣"},{"start":5492.003,"end":5512.923,"text":"好這個是非常的重大如果是它的這等於是130萬桶這種一公斤裝的話那它輻射的範圍我想每一個縣市大概都有了那其實讓大家最擔心的是這樣的一個有問題的油品它如果流入了校園在我們的營養午餐很多孩子其實也都吃下肚了"},{"start":5513.423,"end":5537.273,"text":"所以這麼重大的這樣的一個食安我們要關注的是第一個它的污染來源到底來自於哪裡這麼大的油品廠基本上它的應該它的品管要做到非常的嚴格才對因為你一爆發這個就是輻射出去範圍非常的廣啊那目前為止你們掌握到的第一個我要問的是它的污染來源是什麼為什麼會超標四倍這麼多好"},{"start":5538.673,"end":5554.393,"text":"跟委員說明這個事件我們已經先初步掌握到的是說它在4月的第一批它其實它是有驗的它有驗那個大豆原料跟它的油品當時候的檢驗報告是合格的"},{"start":5555.194,"end":5570.597,"text":"那是事後有下游他出貨給他的下游是有下游通報說他驗出的好像是草標所以才回頭再回來再去檢驗他第一批"},{"start":5571.479,"end":5587.379,"text":"剩餘的那些原料再去驗然後再驗出時間又過了一段時間了所以現在到底是因為時間的關係還是製程上面哪邊出了什麼問題現在正在釐清當中"},{"start":5588.36,"end":5605.545,"text":"所以它這個過程應該是溫度啦因為這個的產生跟溫度有關係所以我們尋常也是會跟大家教育就是說你在用油品的時候那個溫度不要過熱 過高因為都有可能會產生"},{"start":5606.71,"end":5633.724,"text":"所以不是中聯油子自己發現的是它下游的廠商對 因為它自己的因為我們有三級品管嘛它自己驗 它有驗它的那個報告第一次是合格的符合標準的好 真正它發生的原因我要求這個食藥署你們要好好去查明原因是什麼因為如果你不找出真正的原因那聽起來很可怕它稍微一個品管不慎你輻射下去都是這一種"},{"start":5634.844,"end":5663.576,"text":"上千公噸的油品的污染對 我也是要求說一定要找到這個原因在哪裡才能夠避免同樣的類似的事情發生這個我們一定會把它因為我們也在找食藥署也已經在找這些相關的油品的專家在研究到底是這個製程的哪一段出了什麼問題它應該這個不是污染這個不是污染 是製程方法出現了問題是哪一段"},{"start":5664.817,"end":5675.064,"text":"因為這個過程也蠻長的嘛那我們一定會把它弄清楚然後發佈這個結果然後要求其他的業者也同樣的要注意這樣類似的因為這個是涉及到油脂大家每天都會知道的它的那個食安品質的把關要特別的嚴格第二個我要講的就是業者自稱說它這個是符合規定的月子要半年"},{"start":5691.357,"end":5700.388,"text":"這個驗一次就沒有問題他昨天自己發出來的聲明他說他是有符合規定半年驗一次就可以但是我今天就要跟這個部長跟署長討論我們的食安法第7條我們第7條其實是有授權你們"},{"start":5705.994,"end":5722.691,"text":"就是再去定一個辦法就是他們到底要怎麼自行的監測然後自行或委外的檢驗但是現在在你們食藥署的這個QA裡面呢你們是說使用油脂最低檢驗週期每半年或每批至少一次那這個業者是說他"},{"start":5724.913,"end":5731.375,"text":"有做到每半年一次他說他自己還提升到每季一次但是還出了這麼嚴重的問題那我的意思是說像這樣子一個大規模的一個油脂生產商你們在相關辦法裡面你們並沒有去分就是說這一個業者他的規模的大小還有就是他供應量的大小你們去加嚴或者是要求他自己那個抽驗的頻率那這個是事後"},{"start":5752.262,"end":5770.957,"text":"事後都已經賣出血搭吃下肚了才發現那是不是應該要改成每一個批次他這麼大量在某一個情況的底下他這麼大量的油脂應該是每批次要送驗而且送驗之後合格再出貨才不會像這次這麼我覺得他影響範圍太大了"},{"start":5773.311,"end":5790.584,"text":"是不是應該要檢討跟委員報告委員非常專業的說明裡面其實每一批次這個是剛好批次是合規的出去的那出去因為業者對於裡面的標準非常非常在意所以下游的要用他的游的人自己也在驗了一次才會知道"},{"start":5791.024,"end":5815.798,"text":"知道之後回饋回來他很負責任的又去把自己的剩下的油再驗所以我們評估起來的確是製程上面因為長期的製程都沒有問題也沒有修改所以他們自己覺得說怎麼會有這種的現象出來所以有提到說會不會哪一個環節裡面的溫度控制的不夠好或者是連續製造裡面的某一些製程的某一小段所以他們為了這件事情會做的事情是在"},{"start":5817.038,"end":5837.464,"text":"關鍵的時刻就會把現在試紙的方式及早的去做自我的檢測所以我們看到的是我們對於有品的要求非常嚴格之下業者也非常警醒的前端驗合格放出去後端使用端持續在承接要有品的時候也再次驗亦有異常回饋"},{"start":5838.164,"end":5853.243,"text":"回饋再確定 確定異常就通報所以我們看起來是通報是這樣的結果之下我們現在要做的事情是要把整體現在的擴及的面因為油品的源頭有一點點異常 不符合雖然說這個是慢性致癌的風險"},{"start":5854.124,"end":5871.239,"text":"他的風險在我們管理上面只要超過我們不希望我們的民眾長期是這樣的風險因此只要超過就要把它回收回來是我們的責任那我們會把後續要如何把相關的回收的狀況以及製程上面異常也會都會來做最後期的報告"},{"start":5871.88,"end":5883.858,"text":"我覺得我跟委員說明這個委員剛剛提到說是不是對於這個生產量大的逐批檢驗這個我們可以來研議但是我是覺得先去"},{"start":5885.223,"end":5910.597,"text":"釐清這一次的問題在哪裡免得說其實他有驗啦但是卻後面還是發生問題嘛所以到底是哪一個環節出了問題在哪裡來補強這個等我們都調查清楚之後我們再來我要求這兩項都要改善第一個就是這一次出問題的原因那個整個製程就是一定要找出真正的原因到底發生在哪裡第二個是這個也是業者自己講的"},{"start":5911.397,"end":5937.112,"text":"他自己這個之後他說喔以後我要每批驗我驗完之後沒問題我才要出貨所以代表他自己也有看到這樣的一個疏漏那因為你們現在寫得非常的鬆我要求你們要去研訂一個辦法就是說找原因是一個但是另外針對這一種你是上游的原料供應商量很大的我覺得你們不要那個模糊的空間你們現在是每半年貨每批都可以那當然"},{"start":5938.052,"end":5958.911,"text":"就是自我標準比較鬆的它每半年我符合你規定啊它沒有違法它完全沒有違法但是這個是在管理上面我覺得你應該要分它影響的範圍的大小去加嚴它的相關的措施真的這種量這麼大的就是每批你不應該是每半年我覺得這樣子我們才能真正從源頭把關嘛"},{"start":5959.411,"end":5978.735,"text":"要不然這個如果再發生一次重大食安事件是那種源頭他又管理不好他說我辦年宴啦那貨已經出啦那如果這種怎麼辦因為你在法令上你是沒有明定的喔所以我要求部長跟署長你們回去要在這相關辦法裡面你們再去定一個更仔細的這樣的一個把關標準跟委員說我們會併這個事件的調查結果一併來檢討這個後續的管理措施"},{"start":5984.896,"end":6008.065,"text":"接下來就是這次的電子菸的部分我特別要講一次性電子菸的問題我不知道部長你了解多少一次性電子菸這個是對於我們未成年強害最大的2025年有一個研究重點發現這種一次性電子菸因為低價比較容易入手 它是幾百塊"},{"start":6009.065,"end":6032.114,"text":"然後它這個又像玩具然後呢它免沖油免換彈使用門檻低所以在校園裡面是很容易去分享的但是這樣的一個一次性電子菸它比比較貴的那個電子菸它的危害性更大它重金屬更高所以這個調查報告裡面它就說它這種一次性電子菸"},{"start":6032.984,"end":6056.292,"text":"一天的這個簽釋放量高於這種傳統止煙20包的這個止煙的量還要高還有他有的裝置他的鎳超過致癌這個風險的限值有的T超過致癌風險的限值那你們現在查到的電子煙裡面我想問國健署一次性電子煙佔的比例有多高你們現在稽查到了電子煙"},{"start":6057.232,"end":6075.607,"text":"這個我們再進一步去了解因為這個是衛生局這邊查可能沒有過去的統計去區分它是這個disposable這個就是所謂disposable一次要團丟的這一種跟那個refuel的那種的分別我們再來看看能不能分得出來"},{"start":6076.227,"end":6098.958,"text":"這一個部分真的危害很大所以你們絕對是要加強查救最後一個問題就是網路的部分剛剛也有委員提到嘛你們說下架率很高但是我要告訴部長是他上架率也很高就是抓不勝抓你一屏蔽之後他馬上又來那所以這件事情我們這次除了修法之外你看我們截到的土這個都是在電子煙商城裡面"},{"start":6099.798,"end":6127.541,"text":"隨便解就都有啊所以你雖然說你下價率高但是他這個上價率也很高啊他幾乎是現在業者現在業者在這一部分的把關坦白講他也沒有那麼嚴格他比較是被動式的就是說這個有來檢舉那我就屏蔽但是如果沒有情況底下你要上就隨便你上所以才會產生這樣的情況你根本沒有阻斷所以我覺得這一次的這個修法我希望你們跟書發部要研究一個"},{"start":6128.202,"end":6140.704,"text":"再更進一步可以加嚴跟阻斷的方法要不然你們沉溺於說哎呀我們這下加率很高我要告訴部長這上加率也很高啊你現在隨便上去看也都還存在啊那這個怎麼辦"},{"start":6143.008,"end":6170.919,"text":"我們這一次修法裡面也是在強化這個平台業者的責任這個我們會來書發部有來來書發部講一下你們應該高高於齒膜高於這樣你們書發部存在就是要比業者更厲害啊是謝謝委員知道那我們關心這個議題所以我們在前幾天已經找Google來討論了是那Google已經禁止所有的電子鹽來買廣告是那第二個如果有看到它會快速配合我們下架"},{"start":6171.579,"end":6186.535,"text":"所以Google願意主動的主動的去做一些是在廣告的部分他絕對不會接受電子園的廣告是那在商城販賣呢那販賣的部分他會願意來配合快速下架最後一個是他比較正向的他希望"},{"start":6187.376,"end":6201.132,"text":"協助我們政府的網站教育性的網站能往前提升讓你如果查電子院其實出現的前面的第一頁通通是正向的電子院防治廣告防治的一些網站所以這三點我們已經跟Google談了他已經承諾了"},{"start":6202.073,"end":6224.645,"text":"好 我希望這個書發布你們積極一點 這個數位科技我們絕對要用最大的力量去攔截因為這一些都是跟我們的未成年人在鬥手那我前面已經講對未成年人健康的危害這些重金屬的危害是很大的所以一定要用最霹靂的手段來阻斷不要讓它在網路上面春風吹又生 好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝王育明委員接下來請邱振軍委員發言"},{"start":6238.958,"end":6240.623,"text":"主席好 我們一樣請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":6245.369,"end":6271.783,"text":"部長好部長好我想請教一下我在最近在跑地方行程的時候常常這個很多這個發現一個問題就是說很多民眾還搞不清楚電子煙跟加熱煙的區別那有人以為兩個都合法那也有人以為兩個都違法那甚至搞不清楚現在到底怎麼管那我請教部長衛福部有沒有規劃更清楚更容易計的宣導方式"},{"start":6272.723,"end":6293.902,"text":"另一句口訣或者一個簡單的圖卡讓民眾一看就知道加熱煙跟電子煙的差別跟委員說明其實加熱煙它還是傳統的煙柱它還是有煙草那麼電子煙是煙油煙蛋所以這兩個其實是不一樣所以有煙草的就是加熱煙對就是煙草但它不是煙油的"},{"start":6296.124,"end":6310.462,"text":"液體的那個就是叫做電子菸那我希望因為很多民眾搞不清楚因為有時候人家拿著加熱菸人家就說它那個是違法的所以這個部分我希望大家不要讓民眾能夠更清楚尤其家長因為家長可能會更不了解"},{"start":6313.545,"end":6333.881,"text":"那當然電子煙現在我們我看衛務部也很快的動作上一次質詢完之後那我們當然也樂觀其成希望這個部長這個部分快就是幫忙啦盡快來解決那另外有一個問題我想請教就是說我們目前台灣這個加熱煙合法的廠商有幾家"},{"start":6336.07,"end":6358.759,"text":"兩家好像有幾款啊?14款那都是台灣生產還是國外生產?都是進口的那台灣不是本身都有像這個台酒他們不是都有嗎?不是都有這個生產菸嗎?他們在這個申請中啦因為要通過這個健康風險評估啦那個比較複雜他們正在做試驗這樣看他們有辦法申請嗎?"},{"start":6364.471,"end":6381.023,"text":"現在有就在程序當中那我們對他也有給他一些建議那麼特別是他的一些試驗性資料應該要在我請教一下就是說我們台灣菸角公司的這個生產的加熱菸產品現在是他準備進口還是在國內販售"},{"start":6383.945,"end":6404.29,"text":"他有兩個想法一個當然是他也在申請國內的核准所以他才會去提出這個健康風險評估要來做申請第二個我知道的是說他也期待能夠接受國外的訂單那進口跟出口有沒有什麼差那個管制辦法有沒有一樣"},{"start":6404.97,"end":6425.644,"text":"不一樣 應該是說他如果是要到其他的國家等於是出口的部分要符合當地國的法規規定那如果是在國內販賣的話當然就要符合我們的沿海防治法的規定所以他如果出口的話就不需要經過我們沿海防治法來管理就對了"},{"start":6426.905,"end":6453.506,"text":"呃 當然在它要符合當地嘛 對不對對 理論上是要符合當地那但是在我們現行的法規架構上呢這個地方不是很清楚所以這次修法的時候呢也有委員提出這個把它算分流您的態度是什麼呃 我們參考了其他國家確實有這個類似的分流的做法不過這個還涉及到這個"},{"start":6454.927,"end":6478.205,"text":"那個菸酒管理這個是屬於那個財政部的業管到時候我們會一起討論因為菸害防治法第七條的健康風險評估的制度立法的初衷是為了避免健康風險未經評估就貿然喪失而這個主要是保護我們國人的健康那當然如果他是出口的時候跟委員說明就是說以立法意思而言他當然是對國內"},{"start":6479.687,"end":6486.962,"text":"販售的要求因為國外所以對國外的部分你日常是沒有限制才對那我們請財政部上來一下好了"},{"start":6504.683,"end":6514.51,"text":"財政部門那我請問一下就是109年到114年台灣菸酒投入了2.7億元建置加熱菸生產線那請問現在這條生產線的地位是內銷還是外銷報告委員我們是關務署這個部分的話因為是屬於那個主管機關的那個權責我們都不知道"},{"start":6534.26,"end":6548.44,"text":"報告委員因為有關於加熱菸的部分就是要通過那個衛福部的健康風險評估所以他相關的申請資料都是要跟衛福部這邊來申請所以我們這邊的話目前所以你們對那現在是內銷這是內銷嗎那外銷咧"},{"start":6551.634,"end":6573.895,"text":"我看你們又在這個115年醃酒台灣醃酒又向這個菲利普莫里莫里斯才購了22.4億的這個加熱煙與加熱氣套組那一邊建產線一邊進國外的成品請教一下我們台這個台酒現在的經營策略到底是什麼是發展自己的產品還是代理這個國際廠牌"},{"start":6577.899,"end":6591.974,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為就是說現在目前他可能是在為了要做申請通過加熱菸的相關準備那包含就是說好啦我這樣講啦就是台灣菸酒是國營企業也屬於全民的資產"},{"start":6592.995,"end":6604.198,"text":"那我們當然希望他的這個經營能夠越來越好越來越好那對國家整體發展也比較好所以我覺得這樣啦就是說不管他是內銷當然內銷就是照我們這個本來的驗銷方式法的規定還要做這個健康風險評估等等"},{"start":6610.6,"end":6634.577,"text":"那如果是這個準備外銷,我希望我們衛福部跟財政部這邊做好溝通啦,兩個最好講出一個辦法,讓我們這個台灣的這些企業能夠繼續生存,好不好?跟委員說明,因為在現在目前的業害防治法裡面呢,它是對於沒有經過健康風險評估,不能夠製造跟販售啦,"},{"start":6635.297,"end":6657.262,"text":"那所以未來我們如何讓它這個分流的清楚因為它有的是外銷有的是要避免那個外銷的轉成流入市面這個管理的措施我們跟財政部等等來討論完之後那麼再來當然它外銷如果再轉出來的時候當然就是以這個我們現在的規定來做法則我覺得這個是很簡單的事情"},{"start":6661.403,"end":6680.595,"text":"那當然我再請教部長我們那個財政部請回電子菸本來就違法未來持有也會罰但現在問題這有沒有管到校園裡面我覺得校園裡面非常嚴重那我先請問部長電子菸進入校園這是教育部的責任還是衛福部的責任"},{"start":6681.332,"end":6706.252,"text":"這我們大家都一起來努力當然就需要兩個部會嘛那這個部分非常好所以不只是教育部的事情衛福部也不可以置身事外那學校學生在學校被抓到是教育部的第一線那電子菸從哪裡來誰在賣怎麼流進校園這就是衛福部跟地方衛生局都要負責追還有我們警政單位那我請教部長這個教育部"},{"start":6708.174,"end":6718.801,"text":"這個國教署校安通報資料學生涉嫌攜帶或使用電子菸2023年237件這個2025年1692件今年5月就已經有1050件了這個數字有沒有錯教育部呢"},{"start":6729.008,"end":6744.304,"text":"這個是教育部的校園通報應該是沒有錯啦應該沒錯嘛因為三年之內就暴漲了七倍今天五月已經超過去年全年的六成這個教育部我請問一下這是不是校園安全警訊教育部代表可以來講一下嗎"},{"start":6755.419,"end":6773.793,"text":"因為其實電子煙的電子通報之前是我們校園通報之前是沒有列管的我們從114年1月的時候有發函給高級中等以下的所有學校請他們如果有查獲電子煙的時候就必須要進行通報"},{"start":6774.173,"end":6799.543,"text":"對啦我現在要講的是說現在這個數字的暴漲是不是一個警訊當然是警訊那我們不要再加強宣導如果宣導有用數字不會從237件暴增到1692件那現在不是學生不知道電子菸不好而是他買得到吸得到帶得進校園那我們專家指出目前監獄通報使用電子菸最小年齡是國小三年級"},{"start":6801.204,"end":6808.872,"text":"那請問下一步小三的學生接觸電子研你認為就是國高中偏差行為問題還是已經下沉到國小校園"},{"start":6812.614,"end":6834.142,"text":"對啊 這個才是重點嘛 對不對 電子菸不是停在高中 也不是停留在這個國中 已經下層到國小這個部分啊 我想教育部應該要重視 所以你們之前的那些宣導啊 那些標語啊完全沒有用嘛 就是跟不上這個現場 是不是我們學生在學校被發現攜帶或使用電子菸 我們的標準流程是什麼"},{"start":6837.349,"end":6863.315,"text":"我們有電子菸的部分我們在去年11月有發布一個電子菸的儲育流程儲育流程的部分的話一查獲的話因為都是屬於未成年的青少年所以還是要請家長過來就剛剛所講的就是相關的電子菸也先沒入然後經由這些家長同意之後我們會移交就是把整個移交給我們衛生單位這邊來查處然後銷毀"},{"start":6867.116,"end":6884.909,"text":"那後續的話我們有就是我們會持續的關懷然後給你戒嚥教育我覺得你現在講的是一套啦可是做起來效果不是很好那我認為這個權限跟資源的雙重缺失這個權限的困境這個學校人員不是司法警察"},{"start":6885.529,"end":6910.21,"text":"在沒有法律明確授權的情況下教師對學生的進行收身、扣留物品、強制採檢隨時可能面臨家長的控訴或者是違反隱私這種法律上的不確定性讓校方在處理電子菸的時候這個態度非常保守這是制度的權限不足資源的困境就像校方想追溯源頭基層教師竟沒有時間"},{"start":6910.951,"end":6939.11,"text":"也沒有警政專業去調查背後的黑幫這個販毒的網路即便教這個校方想輔導學校輔導師人力也嚴重不足或者面對成癮的學生老師缺乏專業戒癮的技術最後只能留於形式上的諮詢這是系統上的這個資源匱乏啦我建議啦我建議讓校園電子宿園提升至警政教育衛福"},{"start":6939.91,"end":6945.413,"text":"三方面強制嚴重的層級建立一套由中央統籌專業進駐外圍設防的戰鬥型防禦體系簡單來說我大概講三個重點數據導向之高風險樂趣之分級制"},{"start":6958.041,"end":6985.716,"text":"那摒棄齊頭式的防疫模式啦那才以數據驅動的精準介入就是說哪個地方發展這個比較高這個發生率比較高我們就加強那個地方那熱區的戰略定義就是整合教育部校安通報警政署這個毒品熱點的這個情資等等就把它這個定調為高風險的戰備區那當然我們學校周邊也可以設置資源站"},{"start":6986.676,"end":7014.326,"text":"那另外第二個就是建立專業代理機制外圍專業的進駐當學校發生這種事情是不是我們有專業的團隊可以進入取代這個老師的這個工作讓教師的職能夠回歸讓老師就好好的教書那至於這個部分這個另組專業的團隊來處理那第三個當然由這個我們要跨部會的來"},{"start":7015.986,"end":7034.153,"text":"組成這個戰鬥小組啦我希望把這個整個一套用最新的一種方式來遏止我們這個毒品在學校氾濫的情形我這個建議啦你們再回去我再把資料給你們因為時間的關係我也簡單跟委員說明因為未來我們修法之後"},{"start":7034.673,"end":7059.222,"text":"那麼做法上就會變成這個教師發現的時候他就可以暫時保管他不需要徵得家長同意直接通知我們衛生單位去就會把它沒入然後接著衛生單位就要溯源那因為這個電子菸的製造還有販售現在都列入在刑事責任自然就變成是減掉他就會去溯源到抓到這個製造販賣端"},{"start":7060.803,"end":7077.275,"text":"對啦 我還是建議啦 就是說校園的毒品事件我們一定要零容忍 好不好是謝謝 好 謝謝謝謝邱振軍委員發言宣告待會林淑芬委員詢答完畢後休息十分鐘接下來我們請林淑芬委員發言好 謝謝主席是不是繼續請我們部長有請石部長"},{"start":7090.691,"end":7092.753,"text":"部長早 剛才在辦公室裡面聽你的答詢有一點瞠目結舌我們本來第一時間看到媒體報導披露這個含本田比的這個致癌物質的油品是由廠商啊泰山"},{"start":7109.705,"end":7114.247,"text":"他自主公告說我們比政府規定的半年驗一次還要更嚴格我們四個月一劑就驗一次了那我告訴大家我們有不合格超標我們希望自主管理要請大家下架然後要回收本來以為是這樣子結果呢你剛才說根本不是這樣子"},{"start":7136.276,"end":7154.282,"text":"這個是令我們瞠目結舌的 原來真相是 我剛才聽你講的 真相是中聯有指 泰山福壽還有福茂 他們第一次自主檢驗是合格的"},{"start":7155.643,"end":7177.636,"text":"他們的自主檢驗數據是合格賣出去以後下游的廠商自己再驗一次發現超標不合格跟委員釐清就是說它的源頭就是來自同一家啦就是中聯中聯是供應商我知道啦中聯是代工廠商嘛"},{"start":7178.578,"end":7201.721,"text":"他們自主檢驗合格了嘛 對不對現在出問題的這一批有指中聯自己驗是合格的嘛對 一開始 第一次人家下游廠商驗是不合格 請問這下游廠商他為什麼要驗 他是誰 哪一個廠商通路商 還是什麼"},{"start":7203.316,"end":7231.668,"text":"因為業也要花錢啊跟委員報告因為油品到下一個廠商他們其實自己對於使用的油品會做有的廠商會自己在這驗這個不是普通廠商啦要花錢自己去驗的絕對不是尋常廠商是通路商還是哪一個廠商你可以直接說嗎就我們了解第一次知道的是南橋所以他們把南橋是要做什麼的他自己是做油品的他做相關的油品南橋據我所知不是食品加工業"},{"start":7232.748,"end":7236.949,"text":"是嗎 有嗎 南橋做什麼它是有油品的 其實餐飲以及各方面都有南橋 烘焙業也都有所以中聯油脂驗出來都及格了然後交貨給下游廠商下游廠商也是大廠商他們謹慎去驗出來是超標超標通知中聯油脂中聯油脂在驗才發現不行 不及格"},{"start":7261.295,"end":7266.14,"text":"所以他把流廠的那個油再驗他們其實出去之後還有流廠的我不要講這種都來都去的總之自主檢驗是合格被下油廠商檢驗出來出問題了東窗事發了 紙包不住火了然後他再驗一次就不合格了嘛事情的經過是這樣子嘛"},{"start":7280.914,"end":7286.38,"text":"因為對我們消費者而言我們就百思不得其解曾幾何時有油品廠商這麼的誠實會自己公告說我的油有問題請大家下架本來以為這個食品業者怎麼這麼誠實今天才發現不是是他被下油廠商驗出來超飆"},{"start":7302.617,"end":7320.791,"text":"他才再驗一次 然後才跟大家講因為大家都知道了下游廠商都知道了好 我現在講這個事情很重要為什麼因為如果沒有南橋如果沒有下游廠商謹慎的再驗一次 請問這一些超標的油瓶會下架嗎請問他們會自主回收嗎他們會公告不及格嗎"},{"start":7329.332,"end":7354.645,"text":"不會答案是不會好那我要講這個東窗事發他才會再驗一次才發現說第一次不及格第二次第一次及格第二次不及格好那我現在要跟署長和部長講這個超標不是一點點不是上游下游一起把關不是是業者自主管理的假象和破功"},{"start":7356.593,"end":7364.437,"text":"對不對 如果沒有南橋 這個自主管理它就是合格過去了 大家又繼續吞下去可是這個事情很嚴重 為什麼 因為部長 1300噸 這個裡面最嚴重的問題在它是18公升的營業業務用油耶 業務用油耶 到現在有廠商"},{"start":7381.007,"end":7403.684,"text":"就是福茂 他連批號幾號 他連他的流向是哪裡三家中聯有指三間廠商合資的嘛 泰山 福茂 福壽可是呢 泰山跟福壽公布了他們用什麼包裝 批號是什麼到現在還沒有看到福茂有指公告呢"},{"start":7405.134,"end":7422.612,"text":"福茂還擺爛在那裡耶報告委員我這邊有批號向您報告你有批號不要跟我報告請他們對社會公告好的不要跟我報告有已經公告了好部長我現在跟你講1300噸換成營業用的喔不管是餐廳"},{"start":7424.573,"end":7436.077,"text":"小吃店 大賣場 夜市 八卦營養午餐大家買的油品都是18公升1300噸換成18公升 裝成幾桶你算過嗎 幾桶你不要算過 我算了 72222桶"},{"start":7446.204,"end":7472.075,"text":"這不是小事72222桶18公升的這個鋪貨 鋪貨不到全聯 家樂福美聯社小包裝的一般家庭的1公升2公升的鋪貨在全聯 家樂福美聯社大家都是去這種地方買油換成2公升包裝是65萬瓶65萬瓶那"},{"start":7476.192,"end":7478.843,"text":"大包裝跟小包裝比例是多少你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":7480.885,"end":7493.968,"text":"不知道 可不可以我們現在 瓜哥委員我們有在盤這個部分好 你們繼續盤18公升的我告訴你全部都最小的最少數量就18公升7.23萬桶這個是全台灣夜市 便當店 小吃店 餐廳大概全部都種了油炸的全部都種了"},{"start":7508.252,"end":7510.176,"text":"不要忘了 我剛才一開始就講的一開始就講的他自主檢驗都合格的"},{"start":7514.625,"end":7539.022,"text":"是下游的廠商驗了不合格他才再驗才變成不合格如果沒有下游廠商再驗我們就回頭要去打問號請問他們以前的驗的合格的真的是合格嗎我現在問部長和署長就是這些廠商自主檢驗以前驗的合格的是真的合格嗎"},{"start":7540.572,"end":7559.945,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為他們的委託也是第三方像第一次四月份他們是SGS第二次是愛滋味幫忙驗第三次他們在確認的時候是SGS那我們對於第三方檢驗他是被核可確定他的製程跟檢驗過程所以這部分我現在跟你講這個他送驗的樣品是什麼樣品不知道"},{"start":7563.627,"end":7589.374,"text":"然後出問題的後市場你交給廠商的那最準啦最準啦交給廠商的跟你第一次送驗的是不是一樣政府如果在管你覺得是不是一樣 不知道最後在驗的一定是剩下的那些要留底的嘛所以才所以我們都知道事先檢驗政府如果在管我是要講說高風險的原料進入供應鏈以後"},{"start":7590.795,"end":7615.712,"text":"這個出問題大家都才知道可是源頭出問題它就是對社會影響最大的而且是大的源頭的所以在這個裡面我要跟你講說不只是數量大再來這一次檢出的本田比本田比它的限量檢出的數據是多少是兩ppb以下就是兩毫克每一公斤"},{"start":7617.557,"end":7628.34,"text":"以下的 本偏比呢對 是標準是2對 我說它檢出量是多少第一次是驗1.6我不要講第一次第一次的樣本是哪裡來的我們不知道嘛後面是驗出8.18.1是2的4倍超過"},{"start":7633.422,"end":7648.674,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個是牽涉到獨立學他是慢性獨立我們會擔心他的致癌路徑我們希望不要讓他你不需要在這個裡面跟我們打轉他就是超標四倍對我們人民來講我們的擔憂就在這裡所以你不需要再講說獨立怎麼樣怎麼樣我超過0.1我都不能接受"},{"start":7652.337,"end":7672.248,"text":"更何況是超標4倍如果不要用單一的致癌物質本偏比的數據用你們紫藥署的制度降低食品中多環芳香族碳氫化合物含量的作業指引你們的PAHS的監測指標值是多少"},{"start":7674.198,"end":7688.842,"text":"就是整個PAHS的監測標準是10而你看它整個的數據看出來你總的加起來是10嗎?不是總的加起來是21.3了吧不要講致癌物質本評比喔包括這一些這個PAHS都是超標兩倍"},{"start":7703.279,"end":7723.757,"text":"這個非常非常的嚴重加從起來是21.3 超過監測值的兩倍如果單一來看 每一種 每一種這種高風險的化學物質包括本瓶 包括這個本瓶筆 包括這個Crescent 還是什麼的通通都是超標"},{"start":7725.098,"end":7738.529,"text":"所以這個PAHS整體的污染已經超過了監測的指標兩倍 很嚴重所以我們要回過頭來講 食安的制度我們監測和管理 食安的管理制度是要事前把關 源頭把關"},{"start":7740.856,"end":7768.324,"text":"所以我要講這是事後事後大家都吃下去了大家都吃下去了啊你發現他是大幅超標所以我在這裡要跟部長和署長講幾件事第一個我們的檢驗的頻率還要維持半年一次嗎因為自有的產業他批次進貨批次精緻批次出貨對實際生產的批次來說半年他沒有辦法把關啊"},{"start":7769.264,"end":7776.914,"text":"而一個一批次你看這個批次1300噸所以部長我們還要維持原來的制度嗎現行的制度夠嗎"},{"start":7778.54,"end":7800.464,"text":"跟委員報告我們會把這個事件調查清楚之後重新檢討看要在哪個地方來補破網把他這個建立起來我在這裡具體建議啦因為他的食用油脂的原料逐批進貨逐批加工所以我們檢驗是不是要改成一批次一供應來源一用途提高檢驗的頻率第二個第二個這個"},{"start":7804.285,"end":7824.838,"text":"有沒有可能我們應該要把檢驗要預防放在前面所以在檢驗結果出來以前不得放行為什麼他自己也有說啊你看中聯郵指自己自己的聲明第二點他們要啟動每批次郵品委外送驗確保品質合格才可以放行出貨所以他們"},{"start":7826.099,"end":7840.236,"text":"業者自己說的喔 業者可以做到每批次逐批委外送驗第三點 業者自己說 而後他要加強 加嚴驗收原料及增加自主檢驗頻率"},{"start":7841.878,"end":7857.307,"text":"所以他們是同意原料就要開始驗了原料就要開始驗了所以在這個狀況裡面在檢驗結果出來以前我們是不是送驗跟加工的時序要把關"},{"start":7859.059,"end":7874.667,"text":"原料鹹也好原料沒問題啊檢驗結果出來了才可以加工所以這樣才能夠事前預防源頭把關而不要讓他們流入市場大家都吃下肚才在那裡雞腸和下架來不及了然後第三個"},{"start":7876.226,"end":7897.718,"text":"我們要講說 你看大型通 它撲霍 撲到我剛才講的大桶的油7.23萬桶小型的2公升的 它可以65萬桶 65萬瓶它撲霍到全台灣 全國市佔率最多的各大通路商裡面所以"},{"start":7898.718,"end":7920.651,"text":"地方政府到底誰你們應該要求地方政府儘速掌握這65萬坪或者是幾萬坪它的完整的流向到底撲霍到哪裡通路商要告訴我們吧盡快公告通路商大概大家都中啦老實說啦"},{"start":7922.11,"end":7944.535,"text":"啊可是大家的聲明出來都說我們沒有欸如果18公升算起來7萬多桶啊大家都說沒有啊不然是誰買了不知道啊大家出來說我們沒有啊不然是誰吃了不知道所以在這裡我要講就是18公升的大桶油餐飲業 食品加工業 團善要如何"},{"start":7947.597,"end":7959.908,"text":"知道他們到底是到哪裡去了 流向因為我們就是要知道可是業者 大家出來自清的都說沒有沒有 到底是誰有"},{"start":7961.243,"end":7987.752,"text":"那我現在就是要問第五個 大家談過的這批的問題的汙染 或不是汙染它的問題的來源是什麼問題的來源是什麼所以我們的追溯追蹤系統要求他們保存原材料 半成品和成品來源還要建立原料 半成品 成品供應來源及流向的追溯追蹤系統"},{"start":7988.812,"end":8015.498,"text":"你們這樣子追 有追出來流向了嗎都全部都流出 都追出來現在就是在按照這樣去追不是 如果業者沒有公佈業者如果沒有公佈 我們不是要必登嗎不是一定要追溯追蹤要登嗎那我們的系統勾結了出來嗎目前是在持續的勾結因為我們昨天知道這件事情在進行當中那確確的數字跟方向再跟委員做回報"},{"start":8017.334,"end":8041.985,"text":"平常只要現在我再問你一個最根本就是說一般如果他們自己自主檢驗異常他們的標準流程要怎麼處理自主檢驗異常那個部分的原料就不能夠當作是原料來做供應不是啦他們有沒有SOP他們需不需要匯到中央來讓你們知道主動通報你們SOP可不可以告訴我一次是怎麼處理"},{"start":8043.911,"end":8067.497,"text":"當業者自主通報自主檢驗有異常他就必須到我們的飛燈的系統裡面通報通報好像昨天我們的這次的通報分別在三個時間昨天6月30號下午4點到昨天下午3點4家陸陸續續就把他們的沒有通報有什麼罰則第幾條目前的我們通報的罰則是按照實案法是3萬到300萬的罰則3萬到300萬"},{"start":8071.26,"end":8095.399,"text":"好現在部長你們要想一想他這個問題的解釋第一次合格下游檢驗不合格然後在第二次在驗然後才發現不合格那這樣子會不會讓自主檢驗的社會信任度破功因為自己沒有下游這一環如果沒有南橋這一環這個事情就沒了就可能就沒了"},{"start":8096.36,"end":8116.136,"text":"大家都吃下去了那仰賴這個是這樣對嗎所以我問你最後一個問題我們能不能有官方的對於高風險的最源頭影響大眾最重要的其中一個就是油品的我們應該要有更多的後市場監測是由官方官方應該要有頻率"},{"start":8122.11,"end":8131.817,"text":"某種程度的頻率的後市場監測要求各地方政府每個月就要就高風險的每都要去抽都要驗經常抽經常驗如果這次沒有南橋我們就沒有就合格就通過去了"},{"start":8139.775,"end":8164.376,"text":"那接下來南橋不做難道就沒有人要做嗎我們政府應該要扛起這個責任後市場監測後市場監測你們有什麼計畫跟委員說明其實我們過去就是三級評管除了他自己檢驗外部檢驗另外還有一個我們會有抽驗從4月發生到現在抽驗的頻率啦你們抽驗的頻率是多麼低啦"},{"start":8165.297,"end":8173.946,"text":"對 就是我們從這個事件 因為我們都會按照風險來嘛那從發生這個事情 我相信後面我們就會來檢討一天這個廠可以生產600噸的油品600噸的風險 就每天每天600噸然後你這樣子一年抽一次這不行啊 後市場監測我們現在要求你後市場監測 不要靠南橋"},{"start":8189.241,"end":8210.594,"text":"要靠我們政府每年要求地方政府固定的半個月一個月經常去市場去通路商超油經常監測好嗎可以嗎可以我跟委員說明我們會整個把這個調查清楚之後再來做後面的補強但是基本上也是要啊對啊對啊後市場監測後市場監測頻率啊強度啊都要加強"},{"start":8215.499,"end":8226.513,"text":"讓他看怎麼設計 才能夠真的發揮作用啦要有政府的角色啦 不可以每個人都 要不然難求就沒了好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝林主任委員發言 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8250.498,"end":8251.839,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"},{"start":8272.089,"end":8273.93,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8295.988,"end":8297.769,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8326.314,"end":8327.955,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8344.002,"end":8350.862,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8360.194,"end":8362.415,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8380.622,"end":8393.169,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":8401.954,"end":8410.461,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳"},{"start":8441.637,"end":8442.577,"text":"這裏是大廈"},{"start":8458.74,"end":8458.76,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":8474.027,"end":8474.487,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8497.038,"end":8497.459,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8505.763,"end":8521.226,"text":"所以就是這樣就打滴滴 現在加了兩瓶這裡加了一瓶再加一瓶再加一瓶再加一瓶再加一瓶再加一瓶"},{"start":8537.412,"end":8538.852,"text":"需要幫你拿嗎?等一下,等那個書上說"},{"start":8564.168,"end":8575.777,"text":"本來應該是都要站在我旁邊的結果不是 都換另外一個人"},{"start":8593.203,"end":8593.243,"text":"謝謝 最後講"},{"start":8614.521,"end":8625.168,"text":"這個是用蜂蜜蛋糕去把它乾燥 把它乾燥出來會胖都一定胖會胖不健康為什麼這不健康啊這是蜂蜜蛋糕啊 甜的 好吃的那種"},{"start":8643.59,"end":8643.61,"text":"有問題嗎?"},{"start":8653.089,"end":8653.109,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8678.963,"end":8679.363,"text":"我再講"},{"start":8698.374,"end":8701.795,"text":"喂 你有看到喔來得及通知他媽媽"},{"start":8725.052,"end":8727.994,"text":"因為大部分都會好 好 好 現在準備好 好好好好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":8742.384,"end":8742.724,"text":"這也蠻涼的喔"},{"start":8757.232,"end":8758.774,"text":"請問今天羊要不來?今天羊要不來?"},{"start":8777.216,"end":8786.623,"text":"我看應該如果能這樣子的話應該可以我再看他 因為我剛跟他打交道因為我剛跟他打交道因為我剛跟他打交道"},{"start":8804.372,"end":8804.553,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8812.705,"end":8834.77,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8835.522,"end":8841.966,"text":"請站好 坐好 請站好 請站好"},{"start":8871.715,"end":8871.735,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":8919.488,"end":8919.948,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8937.039,"end":8938.139,"text":"現在繼續開會 我們請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長有請石部長"},{"start":8957.908,"end":8964.359,"text":"今天發生食用油含致癌物質我想請教業者主動通報"},{"start":8970.371,"end":8998.888,"text":"這個就會從四月份生產的這些油脂然後到這個六月底主動通報那這個兩個多月的時間其實我們看到它製造的這種18公升的油其實應該大部分都吃下肚了那我想請教就是說從業者主動通報那一直到所有的通路商下架這些有問題的產品那目前這個整個下架的這個狀況你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":8999.508,"end":9015.36,"text":"好 跟委員說明因為這一個案件我們現在還在持續調查的部分就是因為它在4月的時候它有驗當時候驗的時候是合格的那是到後面又有下游的廠商"},{"start":9015.64,"end":9042.755,"text":"那這個距離這個時間是我們這個時間我們他們下游廠商一驗有問題通報上來之後我們就啟動了所以我們是6月30號他們通報上來我們7月1號就發布下架所以目前那是昨天的事對所以現在還在這個所以4月份我現在大家在質疑就是說4月份生產的這些油脂到6月份可能下游廠商他們自己"},{"start":9043.255,"end":9059.969,"text":"再驗一次然後發現有問題那其實這在兩個月這當中其實18公升的這些食用油應該早就在自助餐或者是夜市餐廳其實應該都已經就是大部分應該都已經吃下肚子裡面"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":65.46,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"I1svvoO39z04+Z+9nNU2Ph0NoL7VGNO7l8YLPnZE+Lyin3s9VBnPvSqdj72bqt89gNw/PqMuEj7IfnY9wPskvQoJVLw9Fug9gcgIPg1sjT0YG529NCYHPjNsFT2TGlc+ijd+PlvaiT7IrU6+GIcGvn3DeD3oXZ4+LZ2ZvLBwwL2Y6iW+s7BoPmmd0D2j/1S+I/06PS6OUr6oig09TKv+PVrluD0DbsW9nfGYPmNQpz2bSgQ+rE5UPgjO5b29vVe9QGF/PWvnTD7xOWi+Ge4AvCgPrj59+wI+5hjGvWNY+736+k29CpigPmARcr1l3C+9qZnPvUMKED0JMZk+HA3LPeXt6TuqZrU7kFGEvX4eRr5YAqk9dg/nPBCxCr3jyI4+dHdbvRjlMz2sTUu+f/lIvYr5Dz4nyf29tjuWPPBhQr1icPS9Q8xBPsmnGj7QuCu8WQAvvjX7jL4eA9u9AGZSvWAXID5SV4G+nj/jvXODg7t/6iM9nVquvNswXL7swAE+xtmDPDa6AT3japA7dmmHvnTpfj6/BDY+pihMPkJdEz1z+O+9jD3bPh08F7xzhGE+UcALPgfJ7j1lfvS9LxuJO0Hcj72egti8+UN+vm8dFb7BTog+CJMTvoP4sT2xK509UnCfPYBLML6jjrm+JQAFvfnsfj49WDc+iuQVPpbTEjwhXr29Ax2RvrJNAD5khAm+nfDBPOSO1z2tx5g+WPVBPXg6Q76mlDg+TXwIvXWIkj0gUGW8r+IDPuHpgb2g/I69zcnvvYzhWD1C8hu+fMBQPbKhrj3YBZC+So0JveZLkL4veZM94gQpvlH0hT0uiok+yKo7vH0tlT2U0Uq8OyvsPBunH77t+eE63dfzva9x3jsCi0c9dBGxvTp/iD02HFq9E/UIPFjcyL2FJkO+we0fPh5twryletm9KnvhvdjyeD1fyRg++XB6vRHbbD01C6s6f2GiPYv9Br7tRvw9ZVHZvStTCj5Hq4a+F0YzPTAagr3Aevq8XfQWvgEkir2+tyC+4CbYvVHgIj6lXls9PTtWviQ7CD6ns7u9tgJ+PUrnXj50T0++HlwWvTToiDz/KkC+Gms3Puhxy7roVlg+CJdEPJp1mb3Z6xo+6fuXvB6sXDyGNK07k51nvT7aBb7TrDo+audZvT2sMz67HJ49rvIHPl0t3T5jIo0+fxHWvWGKqb1zOZS9omJevucbUb7lhow8Kaw9vp+gkby1dj8+D5f3PbFLKz22RH0+8hhEPj2TYD3Zi2C+M1tmPWh1HL6265E6fsTVPSz4mjt4nKu9bMrBvUzzQL6dYVW+7+O6vkeOzL3lRn6+kWkKvhaLfr1F0dC9V/ubPTuQCT5oBZY+A80Pvg=="},{"total_seconds":239.19,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":516.34,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_09","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":255.94,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_03","speaker":"SPEAKER_10","embedding":"bDmQvoWjPr4vPai6gH1bvHB7ZL7ACJW9f0SBvlIn+TzHRKy9fN3xvQ5B9b1qvk++wesRvg4jRT4HTog8o3z3Po9cnL3JBL09j5Q8vYEDLzzE4bq+39OXvdLeQzx5fbm91XSMPYH/ez66xDK7Zky4vUDSjLzpOQw9Yd8nPhUYuT3k0zU+blv0vEVXyT0N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