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推動金融制度新種商品之研究與發展三 推動金融資訊公開推動國際金融交流辦理金融退場處理"},{"start":1945.716,"end":1954.219,"text":"1億5年預算編列情形金融監督管理基金基金來源編列17億7878萬餘元較1億4年增加1億9932萬餘元主要是監理年費增加所至基金用途編列6億5233萬餘元較1億4年預算編列數增加1億9755萬餘元主要是增列編補助"},{"start":1969.605,"end":1980.572,"text":"平益中心部分營運經費基金來源用途相比後 剩餘11億2644萬元連同期出基金並結繳公庫後 剩餘42億2905萬元2 保險業務發展基金114年預算執行情形總收入決算數2227萬元"},{"start":1991.938,"end":1996.944,"text":"總支出決算數9928萬執行率97.27業務重點補助保發中心辦理保險精算統計等業務受理學術團體機構申請辦理保險調查統計等以及自行規劃辦理委託研究及宣導等15年預算編列情形總收入編列2071萬"},{"start":2014.843,"end":2019.086,"text":"較14年預算數增加55萬餘元總支出編列7171萬餘元較14年預算減少3034萬餘元收支相抵後短處5099萬餘元加計未分配剩餘後累計剩餘10億9574萬"},{"start":2033.43,"end":2041.996,"text":"三 中央存保公司一四年預算執行情形營業總收入及營業總支出決算數159億7313萬餘元較預算數增加3427萬餘元二 業務計畫重點繼續充實保險賠款特別準備金推動存款保險改革方案"},{"start":2056.707,"end":2072.733,"text":"配合主管機關監理政策強化特定風險業務項目監控落實強化城堡風險控管相關機制辦理存款保險條例規定法定四項查核以接管人清理人身份了結以退場是經營不善金融機構未結事務"},{"start":2073.573,"end":2089.257,"text":"研議檢討存款保險法制強化存款保險功能積極參與國際存款保險機構協會事務與研究強化資安管理及內部控制推動永續發展理念措施15年預算編列情形15年預算存款保險營運值預計為123億8878萬餘元預算數增加7億2213萬餘元主要系全體藥保機構存款維扶增加"},{"start":2102.441,"end":2107.886,"text":"收支情形 營業總收入 營業總支出 編列146億907萬餘元較14年預算數增加9億7021萬餘元固定資產建設改良擴充計畫 編列一般建築及設備計畫625萬所需資金全部營運資金支應"},{"start":2123.942,"end":2141.208,"text":"以上僅就本會主管金融監督管理基金保險業務發展基金及存保公司15年度預算案編列重點綜合說明各項計畫經費均配合當前政府施政重點妥適規劃編列 懇請各位委員支持指教 謝謝"},{"start":2144.286,"end":2167.672,"text":"谢谢彭主委的报告跟说明我们现在开始询答先做一下宣告每位出席委员发言的时间8分钟必要时得延长2分钟每位列席委员发言的时间4分钟我们今天上午10点截止发言登记本日会议委员若有相关预算提案请在今天下午5点之前进送我们财政委员会会议"},{"start":2168.493,"end":2173.48,"text":"議事人員收件現在依登記的順序請第一位林德福委員開始質詢"},{"start":2191.877,"end":2196.768,"text":"謝謝主席莊部長還有彭主委是不是請莊部長先請莊部長等一下再請主委"},{"start":2204.861,"end":2218.01,"text":"委員長部長你好我請問因為過去在強化食安的部分財政部跟貴福部都跨部會來合作同時也透過電子花票跟以這個營業稅的競銷"},{"start":2221.993,"end":2233.741,"text":"就是銷售跟進來像這些競銷項的明細來落實整個商品溯源追蹤的管理那除了可以這個"},{"start":2238.172,"end":2255.445,"text":"黃鍍、桃肉碎以外也能掌握整個食品供應鏈的流向以確保民眾消費的權益針對這一次中聯油脂問題油的事件上油、中油、下油這些產品的流向"},{"start":2256.266,"end":2276.201,"text":"本席是希望說財政部全力要協助衛福部早日釐清事件的真相以藉此事件來重新審視電子花票跟營業稅的勾結是否有達到食品安全的溯源政策的目的部長你有怎麼看法"},{"start":2277.21,"end":2279.992,"text":"謝謝委員 確實是財政部跟衛福部有十品雲的一個界階也就是說我們每個月18號就會把衛福部所提供的業者的清單提供有關發票資料 包含他的上游跟下游讓"},{"start":2295.044,"end":2307.951,"text":"衛福部可以去做溯源的一個追蹤不管是他進向的進貨的以及他銷出去的對象是誰都可以去做追蹤這個部分我們持續都在辦理但是問題是這一次部長這一次到目前為止其實很多民眾真的是打問號因為你黨我們現在的整個政策照理講你食安的問題是"},{"start":2324.62,"end":2336.018,"text":"就是一定要追溯到底不管是任何一定要給社會有一個交代但是到目前為止一開始的時候好像要掩蓋但是這個是"},{"start":2338.534,"end":2364.294,"text":"這個可以說事情太大太大了因為全民幾乎都有知道而且是致癌物內這個一點都不能輕視每個人家家戶戶都會知道包括你我都一樣所以說我認為這個溯源的追溯包括它整個的流向上中下游這些產品的流向因為你那個電子花票跟營業稅"},{"start":2365.935,"end":2382.185,"text":"鏡像 肖像一看就清清楚楚啊一點都沒有辦法去這個門壁啊那部長你有什麼看法是不是主動再跟衛福部講在這方面的溯源追查到底公布給社會了解"},{"start":2383.453,"end":2400.877,"text":"是謝謝委員我想食安都是國民非常重視的政府也非常重視那對於就發票可以做上下游的一個追蹤這個部分我們會我們除了定期之外我們也可以及時的提供那我們也可以再主動跟衛福部聯繫看看有沒有需要我們協助的部分我們會再盡力的來協助部長"},{"start":2403.618,"end":2430.435,"text":"這幾個月從4月開始這個南橋他們一提供從那時候開始所有的只要有這些鏡像肖像的我認為都應該要主動積極的來要求跟衛福部來合作把這些全部都公布讓大家了解溯源追溯因為食安是大家的問題那你不能門閉你要給社會有一個交代"},{"start":2432.1,"end":2453.508,"text":"財政部提供的我們一定會盡全力的來提供我們主動跟他們聯繫看衛福部有沒有需要我們這邊提供相關的更多的相關資料我希望在最短時間也同時讓我們財委會的委員都了解我認為這非常重要這是食安的問題莊部長我再請教您因為立法院表示新清安2.0方案"},{"start":2455.969,"end":2478.594,"text":"這個上次聽您說在6月底以前公布但到目前為止似乎行政院也沒有公布的打算難道是因為市場資金大部分都流到股市這個買房已經不是民眾優先考慮的問題所以行政院也不著急啊這個來公布這些方案還是因為誘因不足需要再由高層來討論人不是這樣子啊清安的新清安的"},{"start":2483.911,"end":2508.227,"text":"是在7月底截止那我們在之後8月1號的執行的方案我們持續在規劃當中當然我原先有說過希望6月底能夠公佈但是因為持續外界有相當都有些指導的意見我們也在看了以後我們一直也在做一些檢視做一些檢視看有沒有要做調整修正以及回應的相關的一個方案所以這個部分一定會在7月底之前7月底之前會公佈"},{"start":2512.389,"end":2536.554,"text":"好 沒有差這幾天沒有其他的特別所謂資金的因素是沒有的因為針對財政部印刷廠人力的應用立法院預算中心指出有七成的員工為中高齡者而且在一一九年度以前借齡退休的超過三成百分之三十恐怕面臨人力缺口以及經驗的斷層"},{"start":2538.214,"end":2564.965,"text":"那財政部我希望說在這方面要提早因應因為隨著電子花票越來越普及那資本花票需求講實在話越來越低那財政部印刷廠業務逐漸的萎縮再加上借零退休可能造成經驗上的斷層那我請問部長有沒有考慮將財政部印刷廠的人力跟業務與其他部門"},{"start":2566.246,"end":2593.074,"text":"的印刷單位來進行合併例如說這個中央銀行的中央印刷廠有沒有這樣的一個想法跟委員報告我想財政部印刷廠他目前來說他的業務當然因為隨著雲端發票的使用所以資本發票運用上來的低但是目前還是有資本發票在使用那當然他的業務除了發票的印製之外還有其他的業務的必須要進他現在還有其他的印刷的業務在做"},{"start":2593.564,"end":2610.696,"text":"那在技術上的精進是一直在追求的一個精進讓防偽的標籤等等都可以做一些印製讓在市面上不管是食品方面都可以做運用那另外我們也希望它能夠拓圓多元化的一個營運方式讓印刷廠的營運能夠更好"},{"start":2613.086,"end":2632.08,"text":"好啦我是希望說因為你有那麼多人要退休重重的問題你們要未雨綢繆啦是好謝謝委員部長因為八威颱風本週末有很高的機率會對台灣造成影響那本期是希望颱風災損能夠降到最低那如果民眾"},{"start":2633.661,"end":2652.124,"text":"遇到天災造成財損的時候依照所得稅法十四細則第十條之一啊需在三十天內提出災損的減免同條也規定若超過規定時間民眾啊能夠提出確確證據來證明財產損失的確實是屬實基層機關應該要核實來認定那本期是希望說財政部基於從寬從速"},{"start":2661.986,"end":2684.238,"text":"重減的原則讓民眾有充裕的時間來整理家園來積極協助受災納稅義務人申報各項這個稅捐的減免事宜那如果真的來不及在30天內申報稅捐機關也要給予民眾最大寬限的時間來申報災損有什麼看法"},{"start":2686.767,"end":2705.498,"text":"我非常認同委員這樣的意見那災損以後造成民眾的一個財產損失其實我們要考量第一個在時間上應該給予寬裕第二個在減負的文件上應該給予簡化這個也是歷來我們一直都在做的這個部分我們會我們希望不要造成災害但是如果造成災害造成民眾財產損失的話我們一定會朝這個方向來做的好謝謝那你請回那個請那個彭主委"},{"start":2713.496,"end":2730.431,"text":"因為台股交易熱絡 股市資金需求提升民眾四代同堂以外 甚至有六代同堂這種現象 生怕錯過牛市然而股市資金需求恐怕排擠到一般的產業以民眾的貸款"},{"start":2731.451,"end":2760.16,"text":"那根據媒體的報導央行今年以來定期存單未到其餘額明顯下降那市場的資金獲得挹注央行上半年釋放資金的活水超過一兆元喔超過一兆那我請問彭主委如何順利引導央行釋放的資金來鼓勵銀行將資金投放到非股市交易的需求"},{"start":2760.62,"end":2786.034,"text":"是謝謝委員我想有關資金的部分我們其實都有在嚴密的在掌控我們也有看到就是說我們最近這段時間銀行的存款是有大幅增加放款也同步的增加但是我們也看大部分都還是流入到企業的放款居多那其實在這個部分我也會跟央行密切的保持聯繫昨天看到這新聞我有跟央行這邊做一些討論我們想我們會兩個部會會來針對這件事情來一起處理好"},{"start":2790.609,"end":2806.963,"text":"另外最近美國聯準聯邦準備理事會來公布年度壓力測試的結果顯示美國大型銀行在面對嚴峻的全球經濟衰退情況下"},{"start":2807.964,"end":2826.508,"text":"能夠承受超過7080億美元的潛在的損失同時也維持對家庭與企業換款的能力具備充足的資金抵禦嚴重的經濟衰退證實美國銀行體系的穩健性那反觀2025年金管會"},{"start":2830.169,"end":2845.893,"text":"對銀行業保險業的壓力測試結果當時有三家銀行業五家保險業在嚴重的情境之下的加壓測試不合格那我請問彭主委如果2026年全球經濟反轉"},{"start":2848.274,"end":2863.641,"text":"那國內銀行或保險業者是否有足夠的能力來承受可能的損失以因應環境之變化是 謝謝委員其實這是我們一直關心的問題其實各位如果委員可以看假設剛剛委員關心的銀行對 銀行的話"},{"start":2866.503,"end":2888.102,"text":"現在不管他的資本氏族率背底呆帳率還有他的整個的整個體質我覺得都是一個屬於非常強健的時候我想這部分因應這些波動我們會隨時來注意我希望說金管會在這方面多去琢磨多用一點心謝謝委員提醒謝謝我們結束林德福委員的質詢接下來請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":2899.81,"end":2907.678,"text":"主席 麻煩請台灣原酒公司湯董事長跟賴總經理請湯董事長 賴總經理兩位早 那個按一下 委員早"},{"start":2921.378,"end":2941.057,"text":"我這幾天很認真看到你們在行銷台酒的啤酒,包括在高雄辦啤酒節,還有別的地方很認真在行銷,啤酒的銷售或是酒類的銷售有增加嗎?"},{"start":2942.754,"end":2970.513,"text":"跟委員報告我們啤酒今年的一到五月跟去年同期比較的話目前是衰退一點多%但是這個距離應該因為夏天還沒有來應該有機會可以比去年同期成長那你們其實最大的問題是你們的菸銷售量跟去年跟前年比起來少了多少到目前少了百分之八左右"},{"start":2971.892,"end":2990.445,"text":"這是今年的吧今年到現在到5月是少了12%啦是跟去年比嗎對對對那跟加熱菸還沒有開放的時間比呢加熱菸還沒有開放是少8%但是加熱菸開放之後現在是少12%少12%那這個營業收入會少多少到5月份少了13億多好那"},{"start":2998.464,"end":3023.297,"text":"最重要的問題是要怎麼樣去取得我知道我們菸酒公司也有準備要生產加熱菸但是要經過健康風險評估的核准目前核准的兩家都是外國公司台灣菸酒公司你認為沒有辦法取得加熱菸的核准"},{"start":3024.741,"end":3028.756,"text":"實踐的問題呢還是程序上還是審查上有什麼困難"},{"start":3030.705,"end":3053.931,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想跟委員報告我想我們在下個禮拜七月十三號下禮拜一會正式的提供第九次的資料補正那這次的資料另容呢最主要是針對於動物性實驗跟國健署要求的九十項的排放測試那現在都已經完成了做好我們也希望目標可以有機會的"},{"start":3055.091,"end":3069.364,"text":"有條件的像美國跟日本一樣在第三季來通過因為同仁都很關心這個除了本公司的營收以外我想也有攸關政府的收入跟市場的秩序因為"},{"start":3070.345,"end":3093.232,"text":"唯一生產的本土業者沒有一家通過卻通過了海外的兩家業者所以我想我們會盡全力的把這個實驗的做完整那當然要看國建署他們的態度健康風險評估這個制度在全世界有販售加熱菸的國家裡面有幾個國家採取要經過這樣的程序目前就我知道的是沒有就台灣"},{"start":3095.814,"end":3114.507,"text":"我們之前有做過一個比喻當然這個比喻恰不恰當自己來考慮舉重民輕你那個捲菸普通的紫菸現在販售之前要不要做健康風險評估現在是沒有健康風險評估但是配方的內容要申報"},{"start":3116.109,"end":3143.221,"text":"那如果止煙不用健康風險評估請問你的加熱煙你沒有點燃加熱煙跟止煙之間我知道我看到的資料最大的差距是焦油嘛因為沒有點燃沒有焦油嘛那其他的成分都是煙草都是一模一樣的東西啊反而危害更小又沒有明火那為什麼止煙沒有健康風險評估加熱煙要健康風險評估而且是全世界首創的例子"},{"start":3144.278,"end":3148.788,"text":"你知道原因是什麼嗎是因為本院立法院硬把你們加上去嗎"},{"start":3150.78,"end":3178.747,"text":"跟委員報告我們是生產單位那國建署是屬於督導單位要看國建署的態度啦那事實上我們要跟國建署碰面也蠻困難的透過email但是這一次因為我們延拓了三年喔那我們這一次在下個禮拜一這個實驗已經相當完整了那接下來就要看國建署的態度是不是能讓本土唯一的一間業者還有也是政府的公司有機會的"},{"start":3179.867,"end":3199.077,"text":"有條件的跟另外那兩家一樣的來通過這個邏輯上很奇怪喔叫我選法律的我講究邏輯嘛沒有核准你的產品卻要拿你的產品的這個實驗報告出來你產品就沒有賣你又沒有辦法生產這個產品那你怎麼樣去做實驗"},{"start":3200.748,"end":3227.854,"text":"他沒有核准你生產啊那你沒有核准你生產你就沒有產品啊沒有產品你如何去我請教你你如何去做這些實驗呢跟委員報告一開始跟國進署的溝通是希望我們可以用資料的橋接因為國外的加熱煙已經都賣了十幾年了但是到後來又轉向變成說沒有辦法橋接所以我們才最近又延拓了半年去進行所有的動物性實驗"},{"start":3229.417,"end":3241.517,"text":"我知道問題是你沒有產品你要拿什麼東西去實驗我們又特別的跟國建署他有一個專案製造審查又特別申請了樣品去做動物性實驗所以他核准你做樣品然後去做實驗"},{"start":3243.592,"end":3270.034,"text":"好啦 那你國健署有沒有給你們什麼樣的行政指導啊不是讓你在盲人摸象 因為沒有潛力啊全世界也沒有潛力那沒有潛力的狀況下要去做這個健康風險評估他有沒有給你做一些行政指導不然不是瞎子摸象嗎 全貿都不知道那如何去能夠來用委員會制度台灣的委員會喔有一個最糟糕的地方是採共識學"},{"start":3271.155,"end":3284.076,"text":"只有一個委員有什麼意見你那個案子全部都要打掉重來然後要符合他的意見主席如果沒有擔當的話這些事情都進行不了國進署有沒有給你一些行政指導"},{"start":3285.436,"end":3303.034,"text":"跟委員報告我們的直屬長官有給我們很多鼓勵啦那至於國建署的部分我們比較不容易跟他有溝通啦那我們就是E-mail針對他給我們的東西下去做調整鼓勵是給你呼呼說你辛苦了這樣叫鼓勵是不是"},{"start":3303.634,"end":3320.711,"text":"沒有 我們長官都給我們很多鼓勵啦因為這畢竟過去沒有一個先例啦但是我們希望這是一個我剛剛講的就是市場的秩序應該台灣是唯一生產的另外兩個業者都是海外平行輸入的事實上如果所有的產品是在菸酒公司生產"},{"start":3321.992,"end":3346.121,"text":"我想對於市場的這個管理的機制應該會更好我們應該是更能守護市場的標準才對啦因為你是國營事業而且是百分之百公股啦沒有私人股份我才敢在這邊講這個我如果在這邊講被解讀說我在包庇煙傷我在推進什麼給圖利什麼我這吃不完兜著走啊這個這些團體是很厲害的好你先請回座好謝謝委員請那個財政部莊部長莊部長"},{"start":3353.53,"end":3374.017,"text":"委員好部長我剛剛跟燕酒公司管理人的對話你有聽到是的他說你們有給他們很多的鼓勵你們是給什麼鼓勵委員不只是鼓勵其實我們我有請國庫署署長到衛福部去做溝通看看了解問題真的在哪裡那我想這個部分衛福部也提供了一些比較"},{"start":3374.659,"end":3379.58,"text":"具體的可以說認為建議菸酒公司應該去什麼樣的比如說找哪些機構去做相關的一些檢測等等不是只有鼓勵其實我們也希望因為菸酒公司他確實因為市場上加熱菸嘛已經開始有在販售那我們也希望菸酒公司的產品能夠盡快通過健康風險評估而他經過幾次我知道是已經是第九次要他們補正了那到底要補什麼以及要什麼樣的方式其實我們國庫署署長都有到衛福部去協助溝通聊天"},{"start":3404.366,"end":3429.471,"text":"部長我覺得我要跟你講一個我的想法是財政部跟衛福部是平行單位你們的溝通的上層是行政院嘛這個創設了一個全世界從來沒有過的制度然後別的國家的加熱菸準了百分之百公營的能夠遵守法令的審查了兩三年審不過"},{"start":3431.011,"end":3448.579,"text":"我覺得這個應該要到行政院去據理力爭啦這個如果你讓這個委員會就讓他這樣跑 那麼多的委員 這個委員 這個意見 那個委員 那個意見每次都不停在補資料 你知道開一個委員會一次都好幾個月補來補去那台灣菸酒公司怎麼生存啊我們"},{"start":3451.933,"end":3474.745,"text":"除了肩負國庫的收入之外我們也要照顧我們的同仁嘛讓他們有這個合法的市場可以去經營嘛我覺得這個事情我其實關心很久了我以前就是很納悶說這個邏輯就不通啊為什麼會這樣就現在了解起來說其實委員會如果主席沒有擔當的話就是變成大家都不負責任嘛"},{"start":3476.691,"end":3492.812,"text":"上次沒來開會的這次來開會隨便發表一條意見又沒有共識然後又要再下一次你們應該要跟行政院把這個狀況說明清楚日本的美國的加熱菸在台灣可以賣"},{"start":3494.995,"end":3523.001,"text":"他們是怎麼通過健康風險評估的他們也是審查通過的啊為什麼會通過他們有去做這些實驗嗎他是拿他在外國橋接在外國賣加熱菸的資料來到台灣審的嘛那為什麼菸酒公司要單獨自己去做這些實驗這些實驗以前也沒有過也沒有人做過你們要想辦法要跟衛福部這邊溝通啦擠那麼多一點行政指導好的"},{"start":3524.025,"end":3540.841,"text":"更符合法律但是路要讓人家能夠走下去如果連國家的百分之百國營的企業都走不下去那還有誰能做呢是好不好 加油大家加油謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝我們結束吳秉瑞委員的質詢接下來請第三位賴世寶委員"},{"start":3555.021,"end":3561.466,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請金管委的彭主委請彭主委還有那個交易所的要董事長嗎 是不是林董事長林董對不起 請委員長"},{"start":3575.379,"end":3603.619,"text":"兩位長官早齁我先問一下應該這是教育所在處理的吧這個前陣子有委員提到說要延到三點半是嗎這個案子確定沒有沒有各位委員報告事實上來講的話我們只是在做研議而且我們有好多案子都在做研議只是那一天委員特別提出來做了一點溝通而已主委要不要講一下是我想當天其實當天"},{"start":3605.04,"end":3621.746,"text":"林董事長說他演繹的內容的時候我就已經直接講了這是一個重大的事情那因為影響重大所以我們我在當天就有講只是那時候有部分媒體沒有把我後面的講出來其實我們第二天的時候我們就直接發了一個非常明確的澄清說明"},{"start":3624.104,"end":3641.869,"text":"說明這是一個重大的制度的交易改革影響的層面非常多沒有做整密的研究之前什麼時候可以引力出來沒有這個其實制度各國都在走都正在做我們是看因為主要還是要回到現在我感覺是大老闆把大老闆支持一般的散戶"},{"start":3643.189,"end":3670.708,"text":"普羅大眾而且包括工作同仁工作人員比如說券商的工作人員等等的都反對啊不是委員是這樣因為主要是我現在講對吧我們這個市場有多元的投資人多元的市場參與者他們有各種不同的意見我們的立場很清楚在沒有達成社會共識之前我們不會來推動我想這個很清楚了只是說各方有他各方的意見都可以表達大概是我們社會有共識"},{"start":3672.055,"end":3691.304,"text":"你不要開一場一場去開會啊三個月內你能不能告訴我一個答案這可能沒辦法有個時間表我想我跟委員報告三個月可以嗎台灣的交易狀況我們現在優先次序不是在做這件事情我想上次董事長可以講說他優先次序要做些什麼事我請他來做說明"},{"start":3692.387,"end":3693.368,"text":"再不實施可以嗎"},{"start":3708.113,"end":3726.982,"text":"所以暫時不實施 這個暫時多久 不該慢慢研究 慢慢聽對 涉及到整個社會我們所有的議題都是這樣這變化太大了 是的就是說這個從過去我們改變延長交易都是經過非常長時間所以我可以講說彭金榮主委頂兩點暫不實施還要經過多長的時間再去尋求共識"},{"start":3736.807,"end":3738.468,"text":"現在大家很關心中聯油的事情被罰了1.65億 中聯油是三家公司"},{"start":3756.881,"end":3762.583,"text":"泰山福壽福茂三家被處罰1.6億三家平均分擔一家是5500萬"},{"start":3776.223,"end":3800.378,"text":"可是4月份已經發現了喔4月份已經發現這三家是上市公司喔他都沒有重訊喔這個你們有沒有去follow up啊這個請交一首說明來來來交一首請報告市長來講的話昨天他已經發重訊了昨天4月份就已經發現了到昨天才這樣慢了M拍喔不是半拍喔慢了不知道好幾拍啊"},{"start":3801.536,"end":3818.924,"text":"對不對 好像是他底下的籃球發現的跟委員報告是昨天才確定被滑所以他昨天才發重訊 你要確定他的那個實質上的具體到底是怎麼樣是昨天被滑的 因為他們也有 昨天就發了重訊跟委員報告這個老實講 這三家的ESG表現不好吧"},{"start":3827.749,"end":3834.755,"text":"這個我們到時候都會做考量難道不是嗎 他ESG 求你喔 ESG 表現不好 有沒有法則有沒有法則 你沒有法則 有沒有 交易所沒有啊 看了一下都沒有法則啊"},{"start":3847.903,"end":3862.792,"text":"基本上我們ESG表現不佳的部分來講的話我們基本上我們都有ESG的評鑑我們在這個評鑑的ranking上事實上現在的上市會公司都非常重視這ESG的評鑑那肯定這樣的部分來講我們會再扣分"},{"start":3865.345,"end":3886.857,"text":"我們會做 我們一定會在評卷裡面扣分評卷多久公布一次我們一年公布一次一年喔 對神經線拉很長喔 你的導線很長耶一年 這個東西有關死的安全老百姓 旁邊就有朋友告訴我"},{"start":3888.138,"end":3911.996,"text":"他在買了沙拉油就三家裡面其中一家他在想說要不要丟掉 油都沒有完要不要丟掉跟委員報告就ESG的評鑑是這樣但是基本上我們可以針對於重訓他們這個有沒有內控的缺失再去做處罰交易所這邊有兩個一個是我們可以去查核他到底他在這個事情上這樣講啦 那個主委聽著喔"},{"start":3913.397,"end":3926.008,"text":"ESG是好事 但是現在來看的話 ESG都是大家輪輪吹牛用的我們不能藍金管委拿出手段說ESG不受敵人處罰 ESG啊我們是跟各位講這是一個評鑑制度是一個類似一個比較類似積極鼓勵那些做得好的人我們予以表揚但是呢 剛剛講說"},{"start":3937.737,"end":3965.156,"text":"委員這張投影片裡面為什麼他們會被罰因為其他還有其他的法令法規在去規範這些行為ESG是一個綜合的去評斷一家公司在這三個構面上這樣說的話ESG就廢掉就好了不是它是其中一個機制不是所有的機制我們有交易所跟它之間的這樣的管理關係也有很多法令不是只有靠ESG而已去研究ESG做了擺爛的給它處罰可以嗎"},{"start":3967.017,"end":3995.442,"text":"沒有我想這是評鑑制度跟委員這個各種不同的機制的搭配我們市場的管理不是只有全部都是一種樣態像我們也很多做很多的評鑑制度有些是要做監理用的那當然是有些是要做一個是促進這個發展的方向的那屬性不一樣我們有其他比較不同類型的監管措施今天啊我為什麼提不提這個好那你ESG你要擺爛就擺爛就等於今天捧出來"},{"start":3998.083,"end":4021.172,"text":"這個重量級的彭主委對外說ESG是個擺設而已裝得太爛也沒有關係也沒有法制我想我剛剛從來都沒有這麼說我想說媒體也不會下這樣一個標題不是 ESG的評鑑已經行之有年大家都知道它的屬性它不是用來做一個監理工具的啦大家當好學生啦 早上要早起 早睡身體要好"},{"start":4023.852,"end":4041.136,"text":"也不是啦幾乎就是啦因為你都不敢有罰則啊我們來看第二個問題因為我時間有限這個我跟妳談過住院才禮賠我找了一下住院的手術一年大概22萬到25萬例男生手術26萬到30萬例"},{"start":4047.141,"end":4071.054,"text":"門診手術等於是佔了全部的55%可以轉換比例尤其現在來講因為我們立法院通過了醫療法這個對護理師來講的話就很辛苦所以這個我就是請教你你們有沒有認真去思考對舊的寶斑有些的手術"},{"start":4072.916,"end":4086.212,"text":"有些的手術就給他內住院理配 這樣子的話也減輕醫院的負擔提高病床的做準備內住院 內住院"},{"start":4087.794,"end":4105.328,"text":"委員剛剛提到我們有沒有認真思考這個問題這個問題是我跟保險局討論最多的議題之一我想我們一定絕對認真的思考只是這個東西確實要認真思考剛才委員提到類住院其實類住院這件事情對於我們不是一個醫療專業的"},{"start":4108.003,"end":4131.34,"text":"商業保險端來看是一個很難執行的問題所以我剛才講說大家講一些醫療的名詞這些東西怎麼樣落實在契約條款上面這個確實需要做充分的溝通因為很多這個你說幾句話我現在就要你給我一個答案了通話給一個答案好不好你們什麼時候會有答案出來我們現在逐步的有一些明朗的事情什麼時候會有答案出來"},{"start":4132.401,"end":4148.446,"text":"委員講是什麼部分有沒有明確的答案就是說門診手術可以理賠門診手術可以理賠比如說我們現在講有些已經非常明確到白內障可以理賠上次我想我們請那個局長簡單跟您說明我們跟衛福部討論一些結果"},{"start":4151.127,"end":4165.238,"text":"各位我們跟衛福部溝通那請衛福部提供相關的數據也就是說過去是住院現在改門診大部分可以改門診的項目那這些是需要醫療專業跟相關的數據讓我們可以再跟業者再做下一步的一個溝通商議"},{"start":4166.864,"end":4186.465,"text":"你們給我一個時間表什麼時候可以明確然後告訴我增加好幾項等於這幾項的門診都可以當作注意這個的話就希望衛福部盡快給我們協助就像白內障一樣大家社會有共識的話還有多少是像白內障這種情形的要多久時間可以嗎這個我們要跟衛福部公布這不是我們要決定兩個月可以嗎 兩個月"},{"start":4187.546,"end":4202.197,"text":"沒有 這個要真的要他們跟醫界來溝通啦我想這部分我們是隨時準備好最後一個問題我請那個財政部的莊部長好不好莊部長還有那個台酒的董事長湯董事長請莊部長湯董事長"},{"start":4208.965,"end":4225.957,"text":"我簡短的問 請問當董事長 這個台酒泡麵有沒有用到中年油脂謝謝委員關心 我們第一時間就全面盤查都沒有用到小官的你不僅僅有泡麵 你還有其他的喔"},{"start":4227.377,"end":4255.908,"text":"對 我們全部所有的都沒有用到相關的剛才有委員提到的 我就同樣的替你講你們營運的 你們的營業額或者是營餘都逐年衰退加熱量是很重要的項目嗎加熱量不過所以讓你們這樣子嗎是嗎不是吧委員那個香菸占本公司超過52%的營收也算是影響很大"},{"start":4256.827,"end":4284.406,"text":"所以影響很大所以這個站在國際署是這個意思就這個意思嘛我們會繼續努力府邸中心有沒有想過民營化你們啊有沒有想過民營化各位我們報告我想民營化是國家的政策董事長沒有辦法做決定但是如果國營企業可以有民營化的效率跟國際化的競爭力你應該講一個說在我任內我要積極推動民營化"},{"start":4286.423,"end":4293.78,"text":"你敢不敢這樣講最後一個部長 我跟你講一個東西十安五環"},{"start":4296.225,"end":4317.378,"text":"這個民進黨政府推的從108年開始到現在到113年總共花了快400億了這裡面財政部建了非常的完整發票系統十二五很重要就是從邊境管理然後整個食品履歷通通掌握住所以財政部其實有這套solution"},{"start":4318.779,"end":4324.525,"text":"現在每天在吵 都說不知道流到哪裡去 第二層 第三層 不知道流到哪裡去其實就是 衛福部擺爛 財政部做好的東西它不用我想這樣對吧 部長我想這樣 有關我們的發票是 而且我們也都上了食品雲可以借接"},{"start":4341.741,"end":4346.966,"text":"那衛福部可以透過這樣子來做上下游的追蹤他們定期也都會來跟我們就是說來做需求就是一句話花了400億左右將近400億"},{"start":4357.817,"end":4370.184,"text":"建立的這一套東西不是只有這一套好幾套這是其中一個很重要的這一套可以確實他怎麼會不知道第二層第三層是水通通知道因為你們要剋稅你們要剋稅但是衛福部沒有好好用啦就這樣謝謝我們結束賴世保委員的質詢接下來請郭國文委員"},{"start":4386.588,"end":4390.371,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管會彭主委請彭主委委員長主委好我想今天還是要跟你討論國泰金控的相關的問題這不是在討論個案是國泰人壽的保護有800多萬國泰金控的投資人有40幾萬所以那個社會關係的利害關係的涵蓋面非常的廣我要讓你知道"},{"start":4415.72,"end":4438.377,"text":"這家公司基本上你上次定一個治理失靈我覺得已經不是治理失靈了他已經到有恃無恐還可以賴帳卸責那個國泰投信是勞動基金運用局全權委託的投信結果第一個時間點損失的金額高達4.5億國泰投信他不想賠他不想賠這麼求證過"},{"start":4443.311,"end":4461.5,"text":"他不賠的話就影響到誰影響到廣大勞工的權益這是第一第二個你有沒有去了解過為什麼相差五個月之後他六月份才進行結算合理的推斷跟懷疑他後面的4億多4.92億他也不想賠"},{"start":4463.277,"end":4489.793,"text":"所以有一家公司是這樣子自理私理連基本的社會責任概念都完全都沒有啊所以我是說主委你應該要強化監理啊他這些東西不但是違反了金融服務法公平待客原則還違反金融消費法的保護法第七條的部分衛進善進管理人注意事項還有不當的差別待遇等等隨便夯不啷啷講就違反了好幾個法"},{"start":4491.124,"end":4518.021,"text":"他為什麼可以這樣有恃無恐主委因為他認為可以掩蓋事實嘛因為沒有發布重大訊息嘛沒有發布重訊他就可以掩蓋事實啊所以我就去問啊我們就問了這一個證交所證交所第一個時間跟我們講說呢因為這個不到權益的10%只有4.54億不用發布重大訊息主委有這條規定嗎"},{"start":4519.082,"end":4546.185,"text":"我想先依序回答委員的問題那待會比如說這個部分要請交易所來跟委員說明那第一個就是我們強化監理絕對是剛剛委員提到就是說為什麼會不賠這件事情我想我上次也跟這個在委員會也報告過我們棋局邀請他們的負責人來多次責成他要負責處理好我想負責處理當然是要賠啊對啊就是公平待客也是我們跟他說的"},{"start":4546.525,"end":4574.571,"text":"是啊所以我的意思是說這件事情實際上我們有跟他說後來我們看到結果就是這樣倒是說今天這整個過程我跟你講我們不談個案我只想說這不是一個案不是我說假設是因為這個你自己操作的失誤那當然就是那這一說比如說權委他要看他的契約上如何約定他自己去做認定我想這要請公司來回答這問題我也跟委員報告過這也是為什麼我們精簡要去深入了解的原因"},{"start":4575.231,"end":4600.303,"text":"那再來剛剛那個重訓的部分重訓的部分齁 林董事長你們證交所根本回答說不到10%我不是要這一條在哪裡啊您在回答之前我就先講一個光是公開發行公司的取儲啊超過3億啊他就得發布重大訊息啊這一個第一時間點第一次的認賠就4.54億欸第二個時間點是4.94億欸"},{"start":4605.892,"end":4607.761,"text":"兩個前後都不到十加起來是17%"},{"start":4609.605,"end":4637.403,"text":"林董事長這需不需要發布重大訊息基本上來講跟委員報告那個當他第二次到4.94億的時候就超過了我們的10%就剛才提到17%所以說事實上我們在上個禮拜五就已經去函給那個國內金控上個禮拜五才去函要求他發布對啊這會不會太遲啊因為這件事情衍生已經超過半年之久而且"},{"start":4638.163,"end":4652.205,"text":"那個最重要啦那個就說那個董事長我這邊不是在為難你就制度面的部分我們有沒有什麼再親近的空間我就說取一處啊三億就要處理啦對不對那十person的"},{"start":4653.243,"end":4678.156,"text":"根據在哪裡 我去查過是資產的10%資產是含負債加權益的部分所以為什麼你們可以單一的認定說這不需要這這麼重大的事件這也是讓整個國泰有恃無恐的地方因為沒有人知道可以私底下作業可以動員跟政企局很好的讀懂去進行遊說跟關說是不是能夠可以不用賠"},{"start":4679.236,"end":4699.103,"text":"郭委員我想跟那個所謂剛剛上次已經說明過了這個沒有所謂的跟我們關係有好的問題同樣一個行為在重訓發布程序當中的主委跟林董事長第四條當中的第一項第二款當中就寫到說要避免對財務造成重大影響這還沒有造成重大影響嗎"},{"start":4703.7,"end":4727.697,"text":"我意思是說董事長在這邊 主委在這邊我們有沒有可能透過這件事情把它精進化把它具體化對 謝謝委員的指導那個其實我們任何一件案子既然委員會這麼關心 委員這麼關心我們絕對是會針對每一個個案再重新來審視一下這也是為什麼過去我們的重訓啊項目高達五十幾款的原因因為每一次呢 大家都會對"},{"start":4728.638,"end":4749.385,"text":"不同的訊息給予不同的定義所以交易所這邊也在與時的俱進跟他的上市櫃公司之間如何做資訊充分的揭露我想這部分我可以答應委員一定會回去再根據這個再來檢討在一個月內給本席一個回覆然後在整個國泰監控底下"},{"start":4750.663,"end":4769.04,"text":"外面還有在傳言還有在講說是不是還要去查一下國泰金共所屬的子公司孫公司是不是還有持有四星KY或者呢 郭明健前董事長他雖然辭職了他堅持的獨董還不止這一家"},{"start":4773.684,"end":4798.954,"text":"這個部分有沒有納入精檢的範圍我想我們精檢人員應該是今天還在啦所以我的意思是說這個他們基於他的專業我在這邊也不方便跟委員說我們的檢察人員會查什麼這也不能在這邊說我只是說該查的我們都會去查對 該查的會查包括本席提的這些也會查那該查的要查連同這兩天報紙出來國泰金鉤聯環報"},{"start":4802.281,"end":4828.569,"text":"連一個這個置地廣場建物還超高還要打掉四層樓已經投入百億了要不要一起查一查我想這個案子因為涉及到建管的規定我想當事會蓋房子也不是隨便能夠蓋我想他應該去跟釐清公司應該要對外釐清說為什麼在取得建造又會違反那個地方政府之間做好的溝通說明要對外說明"},{"start":4829.949,"end":4850.917,"text":"就從來沒有聽過這種消息啊對 就是因為房子不是一家公司隨便要開就能開而且已經投入百億了喔所以這個東西公司應該好好對外說明投入百億了餒然後這裡頭其實本席在討論的一個問題還是在究責啦不要讓他卸責那偏偏的究責的部分我們又設立一個責任地圖"},{"start":4852.079,"end":4880.289,"text":"那責任地圖啊要他們自我問責啊有如登天之難啊不然的話台中銀行不會說那個銀行局長又叫他兩個月之後再給他修正一次業者會有這種這麼主動的自我救責的能力嗎老實講我是非常的懷疑啦其實委員也會有這個顧慮委員也不用擔心因為我們其實上如果委員你有仔細研究我們的財閥書的話我們最後都有加上一個請他要救責"},{"start":4881.269,"end":4907.627,"text":"他如果輕輕放下我們絕對不會就此罷休啦因為問責地圖是針對高階人員的問責制度問責委員會是否啟動有無動靜我想金管會應該第一個時間要有所掌握可是我在上次問的時候就是完全沒有辦法理解所以是不是會變成難以就責形同謝責的方式是不是主委你可以思考一下有一些把它辦法化不是想說用自律就可以期待這個問責制度得以落實啦"},{"start":4907.807,"end":4925.899,"text":"是委員講的我是同意的因為我們的監理有多層次的監理的方法最強制的法令要求法律要求法令要求法規自律規範還有所謂的指引這些各種層次我們會根據不同的情況來做而不是完全都是採用一個方式因為這個確實是"},{"start":4929.002,"end":4949.639,"text":"我可以同意委員的意見任何一件引發市場關注或是導致市場發生負面新聞事件我們都應該好好的利用這個機會好好檢討所以經檢局的責任就很重要啊他檢查到什麼程度你才能了解問題到什麼程度你才知道要修正到什麼程度制度要改善到什麼程度嘛這也是為什麼我們檢察局過去一向非常專業檢查我想這沒有問題"},{"start":4951.42,"end":4973.725,"text":"我最後一個問題 還是要跟主委溝通一下這在坊間 我從三月提出這個問題之後不斷的被人家詢問啊委員啊 是怎麼搞定 搞定找分開就搞定 要改一年半為什麼啊 我真的不曉得怎麼解釋耶後來我跟你們查了一下你們十月底以前要做市場調查要去問相關業者"},{"start":4976.929,"end":5005.906,"text":"就要花個半年超過的時間啊法規修正又要三個月投資人宣導還要六個月這種還需要什麼投資人宣導嗎要到明年七月才能上路我現在很難解釋啊要用一年半的時間來修正這十分鐘啊我跟委員報告我以前沒接這個工作的時候我常常以為想當然爾的那個事情當我了解以後通常不是這樣我請教育所來做個說明沒有 教育所林董"},{"start":5006.646,"end":5030.054,"text":"投資人宣傳這剛說要宣傳的這樣也要多久啊還需要宣傳嗎六個月還需要宣傳法規修正還需要三個月嗎市場調查需要那麼久嗎九點開盤的零股交易科技開盤我們今年年底齁就可以實施了年底對年底前對對我們現在好有你這句話我就可以交代了這個其實上次就說明過我只跟委員解釋交易所的制度攸關非常多的投資人各種都有還有參與者"},{"start":5031.494,"end":5046.227,"text":"如果我們只要漏掉一個環節就會產生很大的問題所以我們會非常謹慎能快我們不會慢 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委的答覆 謝謝好 我們結束郭國榮委員的質詢接下來請林代化委員姚建柱委王主委"},{"start":5061.377,"end":5083.115,"text":"主委今天是您啟動國泰金控歷經兩個禮拜最後精簡的截止日就在今天了所以這個國泰金控的內控風暴鐵拳掀開了治理黑洞跟監理失能那到底你精簡的到現在你怎麼跟社會做個什麼樣的交代"},{"start":5083.775,"end":5100.12,"text":"那這邊呢這個郭明健董事長這邊我想有幾個時序從1月他們自己國泰投信的自我通報偶發事件你們到了6月才開始實地的投入這個信託精簡那因為有了這個歐打事件你們才展開擴大精簡"},{"start":5105.981,"end":5109.584,"text":"好那這個呢鐵拳掀開的十億內控風暴呢有第一個內控防線的徹底崩盤這旗下的八黨基金當中集體及長期的物彩投資的紅線那以及第二個五萬名無辜散戶買單而造成了"},{"start":5124.716,"end":5148.484,"text":"整個國泰信託整個金控集團也好整體的補償跟損失的金額高達10億以及第三個大股東的暴力干政金控大股東與經理人權責邊界的嚴重失去這個就是這兩個禮拜多來我們所的內控的風暴所呈現的一個問題"},{"start":5149.924,"end":5169.421,"text":"好那另外包括讀懂門神話金管會監理有沒有放水呢連這個大股東啊他都痛批讀懂失職形同虛設以及這個監理的盲區延宕半年怠惰的公文旅行1月的時候"},{"start":5171.582,"end":5196.576,"text":"這個國泰信託的一個通報你們為什麼拖到六月的時候才有一個這個還沒有鐵權事件啊我認為你們的信託金錢也都這樣輕鬆待過可能都只是蓋章左過場其實委員不是待會有時間讓我說好來那您說明到底這個獨董門神話這件事情他就這個事件獨董有沒有失職"},{"start":5197.984,"end":5225.61,"text":"我想剛剛我一一的回答委員的問題啦剛剛第一個就是說公文旅行一至六月我想在上個禮拜的星期三這個時間就是最多委員關心我已經重複的好幾次說明這件事情然後其實我們在通報的時候不是一通報就會去做精檢我們剛剛已經講過我們中間有經過非常多跟公司求證查證查核的過程所以要經過半年是不是每一次你們只要通報都要經過半年才可以才啟動精檢嗎"},{"start":5226.65,"end":5242.499,"text":"不是所有通報都要精檢我想通報他已經主動揭露這件事情我們會要求他補件說明來這邊這個做一些查核的動作所以今天即使沒有這個揮拳事件所以你們還是啟動精檢一樣損失10億元那一樣就這樣帶過嗎"},{"start":5245.461,"end":5271.546,"text":"不是 揮拳事件跟這件事情是沒有關係的因為我覺得說不是 不會因為揮拳就是精簡揮拳之後才有擴大精簡不是 擴大精簡那今天才是擴大精簡的最後的截止日是 謝謝委員的指正啦我的意思是說其實各位看因為我們的好 那過來你認不認同獨董失職這件事情獨董失職要由國泰金庫去看他們獨董有沒有"},{"start":5271.846,"end":5298.347,"text":"所以你不認為他有獨董失職所以你也不用去檢討你的宣傳門的條款嗎所以可以任意的任何的高官退休之後只要遵行現在最重一個刑事的審查我退休三年後就可以進入到非前五年任職的一個機構然後繼續的即使他們這樣的一個像這樣今天的案件獨董兩個副主委他都可以不用講話那獨董"},{"start":5300.228,"end":5306.491,"text":"他的功能何在他代表股東監理公司來參與這個重大決策那他的職務是什麼那是不是台灣就廢掉獨董算了你還不承認說獨董在這件事情是有失職的你還在敷衍連你都是門審連你主委都是國泰金控的門審"},{"start":5328.562,"end":5336.509,"text":"委員誤會了 我沒有這樣講所以你認為讀懂的角色是什麼在這邊沒失職沒有 我說有沒有失職我再問一次"},{"start":5337.987,"end":5362.41,"text":"今天大股東蔡盛宇痛批獨統失職你這樣不認同這沒有模糊的空間沒有個人如果你說沒有好那就送大家公平喔表示今天所有花了兩個禮拜我以為我沒有這麼說我沒有這麼說那有沒有失職我想有沒有失職要事實來認定啦對不對那你的事實認定有沒有我們要做整體的評估我不會在這邊做這樣所以這也是金錢的內容嗎"},{"start":5364.491,"end":5384.355,"text":"經檢的內容我們剛才說我們該主委什麼都會做如果你是這樣子的答覆在國會殿堂面對現在損失權益損失的五萬名的股民你覺得這樣對得起公私治理你做一個金管會主委的職責嗎沒有公私治理不好我們會來討論好來我們繼續主委你直球對決這三個問題今天你擴大經檢你到底查了什麼"},{"start":5392.984,"end":5420.574,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們經檢剛剛其實郭委員也問到我們經檢也不方便在這邊跟我們說我們查到什麼現在還在查好你什麼時候公佈經檢結果等到我們在半年後嗎我們完成程序以後當我們做出這個比如說假設真的裁罰報告我們都會公佈這是哪一個主管機關是經檢局嗎不是是由經管會來做檢察局我們執行檢查動作檢察局局長要不要那個要不要說明你什麼時候公佈我的這個經檢結果"},{"start":5423.037,"end":5436.403,"text":"報告委員 我們會盡快再處理盡快啊 半年後啊 夠不夠快當然不會拖這麼久 我們定是盡快的盡快是多久 兩個禮拜可以嗎今天最後一天了 兩個禮拜讓你整理資料也夠了吧"},{"start":5437.766,"end":5456.301,"text":"委員這個真的要看事實啦因為我覺得這樣一個一個大家這麼關注的問題壓一個時間一定要把他你又知道關注了你也知道這是重大事件了所以你還可以代做到你沒有辦法在這邊允諾說你到底要什麼時候公佈經檢不是經檢的報告我們講說我們要釐清事實才要公佈我們重點不是時間要把他本需要求兩個禮拜做得到嗎"},{"start":5464.229,"end":5486.581,"text":"這真的要按照事實來決定啦真的委員所以半年三個月我們能快就不會慢啊這本來就是這樣啊我非常失望今天你在你對於社會大眾矚目大家關注五萬人五萬的股民受損然後公司要損失十億這樣子你還在這邊閃躲其辭再來第二個"},{"start":5490.183,"end":5513.86,"text":"你認為現在的旋轉門迴避條款有沒有檢討的空間任何制度都有檢討的空間那只是說這個旋轉門條款不是我們在這邊規範的是這是我們工人服務法規定的內容所以你認為在監管在自理監管會當中有沒有需要加嚴或者是應該怎麼的做檢討其實這件事情我們事後我們在內部都有做很多的檢討我們也承諾我們這個委員會針對這幾個議題我們都會來好好來檢討"},{"start":5519.232,"end":5540.273,"text":"所以旋轉門當中是你檢討的項目之一嗎對於他們兼職的規定我們會來檢討那對於說比如說這些利益衝突的方面這個都是我們檢討的重點也是會納入你的精檢的範圍嗎精檢的話他們本來就已經在做了所以這是第二個議題精檢之外你還有第二個議題嗎我們所有的跟這個有關的我們都可以檢討好OK那有第三個問題"},{"start":5542.535,"end":5564.034,"text":"針對這個監理盲區這180天在1月的時候金管會收到國泰投行的通報到6月的時候你們介入這個介入並裁罰也現在也還沒有裁罰也沒什麼裁罰你們金管會針對這樣的半年的監理盲區你要你作為主委你要提出什麼樣的鐵丸手段做全面的清查"},{"start":5564.594,"end":5586.949,"text":"我想我們該做的都會做比如說像剛剛講的我們該檢討它內部的為什麼他們這些的內控制度會失靈是不是要有多重的這樣的一個通報機制確保這個東西不會有問題好 文西在這邊具體要求我對這個主委您現在我可以給你封個封號了你就做打太極主委"},{"start":5588.534,"end":5616.179,"text":"太打太極主委實問虛打所以我在這邊具體要求兩個禮拜內第一個公佈擴大精檢結果第二個旋轉門利益迴避的這個條款啟動檢視擴大並強化的一個檢討報告第三個監理盲區的檢討你們的這個的一個檢討報告同步在兩個禮拜內這三份提出來"},{"start":5617.355,"end":5630.74,"text":"主委可以嗎我想委員的要求我們會照做但是這個內容還是要根據事實來做我沒有叫你虛假怎麼可以報虛假你當然跟著你當然實質怎麼監理你的報告什麼你就兩個禮拜就提出來啊"},{"start":5631.755,"end":5647.245,"text":"好我就做這樣要求可以喔好那就這樣以上我們拭目以待跟各位跟我們現在社會大眾針對這樣的重大精簡以及旋轉門迴避的這樣的一個檢討機制以及你們這180天的監理盲君兩個禮拜後對社會大眾說明好以上謝謝好謝謝我們結束林黛樺委員的質詢接下來請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":5667.965,"end":5672.167,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好部長好喔"},{"start":5681.178,"end":5697.954,"text":"新青安的上路到現在呢看到的是建屋的成交數增加了但是房價也增加了那財政部呢他原定是說6月底要公佈到現在呢已經到7月了還沒有看到實際上的青青安2.0的內容"},{"start":5699.395,"end":5702.657,"text":"本席這次提出三個促進年輕人居住正義的對策想要來跟您討論首先我們看到公股銀行在這兩年的數據顯示核貸者在年齡50歲以上的超過了6700戶比例達到5.23%"},{"start":5716.946,"end":5718.708,"text":"年收入超過200萬的人有18000多人比例有14.38%那請問部長50歲叫做年輕人嗎200萬的收入還需要國家補貼利息來幫他成家嗎"},{"start":5735.695,"end":5742.878,"text":"請問部長跟委員報告在這個我們所謂的新清安執行以來我們對於年齡層有做一個統計40歲以下的貸款戶佔了72.48%50歲以下佔了94.61%我知道了部長我的數據上面就寫了50歲以上的5.23%這部分那我想你知道青年基本法當中的青年定義是多少嗎"},{"start":5764.305,"end":5787.883,"text":"跟委員報告,那未來我們在清安3.0的時候我們當然也會考慮委員所指教的這一點那對年齡的部分我們會納入考量好,這年齡的部分,再讓我具體想法還包括是屬於年收入200萬的就是說這邊你們願不願意設定合理的生誕年齡跟收入上限把資源聚焦在真正處於成家階段的年輕人你剛剛是針對年齡已經說了嘛對"},{"start":5790.906,"end":5805.599,"text":"確實是盧委員所說的我們青安貸款確實是要協助沒有自有房屋的民眾來購物而且要用在所謂的真正需要協助的民眾所以在收入部分我們在青安的3.0裡面也會納入條件"},{"start":5808.598,"end":5832.95,"text":"好那這個條件大概是所以就是會應該會有個上限的限制是嗎對就是超過一定的收入的話並不在這個適用的範圍內這是我們會考慮進去的好那這部分是不是可以再把一個相關的資料可能在可能就在你們7月底就要公布了嗎我們會在7月底之前就一定會公布對那到時候我們會有一個詳細的說明跟社會大眾做報告"},{"start":5833.85,"end":5842.694,"text":"是希望說也許那個方向這邊如果有報告的話希望是這一個禮拜之內大概初步方向可以提供謝謝委員這樣的一個指教我想這個都會是納入我們方案的規劃的範圍內的好那我們繼續再往下看另外看到一個問題是央行也指出新金漢讓首購族的總屋價上漲了17%這代表政府的那個補貼全部被房價所吸收了那還包括的是"},{"start":5863.364,"end":5884.01,"text":"一千萬元的貸款額度啦四十年期還有五年的寬限期這部分等於說是放任的高槓桿去搶到市場去搶房啦對 房價就越墊越高啦所以本席要問的說願不願意將民眾申請新清安可貸款的金額上限與合理的房價所得比來做掛鉤部長願意嗎"},{"start":5886.391,"end":5889.394,"text":"像委員您指教的都是我們在這一次的時候提出清安3.0的時候都要納入考量的我們要把資源放在確實需要這個政府協助的一個購買自住房屋的民眾身上"},{"start":5901.445,"end":5918.42,"text":"對 部長我現在合理要問說合理的房價比你現在知道嗎台灣現在的合理房價所得比是多少嗎沒有所謂合 現在平均我國的確實是房價所得比是有高的現象比其他國家比起來是有高那因此政府才會以各種方式"},{"start":5919.26,"end":5928.546,"text":"來協助民眾有關居住的部分包含除了我們新清安之外不管是社會住宅或者租金補貼等等各種方式目前呢在你的資料顯示呢就在我的資料這邊顯示呢在15倍以下的的確有達到73.66那是合理的喔那這個15倍的意思代表說在台北市的話就是大概15多可是其他縣市的話當然就更低了"},{"start":5945.317,"end":5952.779,"text":"那這邊可是超過15倍以上的所得房價所得比甚至還包括20倍以上的總共加起來是多少是三成以上欸超過三成以上表示他到時候在五年之後開始還本金的話那就可能到時候怎麼樣他就是賣掉或者是他就變成法拍了這也幫到的是他可以合理的去指引他拿到就是變成他自己的房子嗎這個事實你要看到啊"},{"start":5971.701,"end":5972.906,"text":"公務員報告銀行在核貸的時候都會把告訴他說你核貸的金額"},{"start":5977.748,"end":5984.19,"text":"然後你可以申請貸款的金額跟未來在寬限期你要繳的金額以及未來本息繳款的時候是怎樣的金額都會對這個申請者來做一個詳細的說明那這個貸款戶他也必須要橫著他自己的收入而銀行在貸款的時候也會看他的收入的情形能不能夠支應我想這個在銀行貸款的時候都會去做這樣的一個審慎的一個評估這也是我們這一次在提出清安3.0的時候"},{"start":6006.457,"end":6011.382,"text":"財務的評估上都要事先做詳細的說明跟評估的太高的這個比例當中的確會形成很大的問題啦這部分是不是可以提供一個比較更具體的方向的一個說明給本席啊"},{"start":6028.478,"end":6031.54,"text":"我不知道委員您說的方向是因為這部分要遏制到房價尤其是台北市已經這麼高現在的情況是如果它15倍的它還要超過三成的部分是合理的房價儲備你們應該事實上要或是你們事實上也有研議往這方面進行嗎好的 我們會把相關的資料提供給委員"},{"start":6051.477,"end":6075.79,"text":"好 我們把延期的資料提供給委員這個合理的房價所得比 絕對是要做不然一紙房價是沒有辦法達到我們的目的的好 那另外下面我再看到的是一個更重要的問題因為美其民這個是一個要幫助成家那可是天天在喊的是少子化是國安危機但是對於單身跟沒有生小孩拿到的國家的補貼呢是完全一樣的是不是應該"},{"start":6077.231,"end":6100.391,"text":"購物的補貼應該在優先投入到有婚育的家庭上面所以許工部長是不是願意給實施生越多補越多的這個就是實施生越多補越多的一個動態利率折扣例如說寬限生一胎的話就給了三年的寬限期第二胎呢有出現了再給到延長三年來減緩青年家庭在育兒初期的現金流壓力呢"},{"start":6102.228,"end":6124.403,"text":"委員報告對於人口這個問題其實我們已經提出了這個所謂國家的新戰略政府以多面向的方式來協助婚育家庭的一個經濟上的一個需求那在親安貸款的部分我們也會考慮婚育家庭是不是貸款額度給予不同的一個分別那其實貸款額度高的話方向就是有納入這個部分"},{"start":6125.844,"end":6134.634,"text":"對 婚姻家庭會有不同的一個額度的不同是好 因為時間包括是因為七月底馬上就要公佈了嘛那我們當然就希望說繼續的就是在最終下去對 對 對是委員的意見我們都會都是在我們參考的範圍內好 那我繼續再看到一個是"},{"start":6140.9,"end":6163.166,"text":"納稅者的權益保護法實施將近十年但是我們看到的是納保官的設置是很重要的已經出現了但是納保官他現在的制度是設在國稅局或是地方稅捐機關然後人事考積跟升遷都是由稅捐機關來做管理那任滿之後他還回到原的稅務機關一產生所謂監督自己人去監督自己人的這樣的疑慮那請問的是"},{"start":6166.467,"end":6184.077,"text":"財政部這一部分是不是我們要看到是不是有這樣的一個懷疑現行制度上面是不是想說現在的茂保官到底有多少位他都是專任還是兼任的他設施的地方是還有說他到底有沒有在全國性的這樣子的一個對於制度性的改革有些幫助是不是也提供一些舉重實力出來是我想這個納保官確實是蠻重要的可以讓珍納雙方的爭議可以盡量減少"},{"start":6191.301,"end":6207.712,"text":"那這個部分我們也持續在精進社會各界的意見我們也討論包含納保官可以納入外界的一個除了稅監機關本身的人之外也可以納入外部的委員這都持續在做那至於詳細的執行情形是不是可以由我們複稅署的署長來做跟您說說明"},{"start":6210.189,"end":6237.226,"text":"報告委員我們納保跟制度實施到現在已經9年快9年了那其實各地區國稅局跟地方稅基金機關因為它是直接去處理納稅者的案件的所以我們現在納保對我現在就是問你它有沒有在制度性的改革我知道我都可以列出來啦包括房地合一稅就是你們常常講的嘛90萬的這個稅呢變成到8萬了等等嘛這不是常常講的但制度性的改革尤其是我剛剛講的"},{"start":6238.507,"end":6257.627,"text":"包括的是該給的稅是要法律上的保障他才是真的可是你們用的時候很多的含釋就可以讓他們就是給的給的納稅人這部分的話其實說對於在程序合法性是很大的問題的這部分是不是應該要去好好去思考你們有提到制度性的改革的部分嗎有嗎"},{"start":6258.408,"end":6285.443,"text":"去年我們納稅者權利保護法有修正喔也經過立法院通過有增加外部專家學者那現在各稅捐基金機關都會在我們納保官裡面會選任一些外部專家學者會增加那請問一下現在的納保官他本身的考績是由誰在考的考績是誰在你意思是納保官嗎對 因為是獨立的外部專家學者就沒有考績的問題了"},{"start":6286.904,"end":6311.382,"text":"獨立的 獨立的沒有所以他就是專任的獨立人士嗎是是是 外部專家學者我們稱為外部專家學者 對好那其他的部分還包括的是你們知道那個函令這部分的部分在當初的關於說只要有程序上面的話只要是有函令的話甚至基於什麼國家機密的保障啊這個部分就不給了理由可是你要知道"},{"start":6312.763,"end":6328.863,"text":"作為一個財政部就是所謂的納保官他本身徵稅就是一個非常重要是侵犯的財政權他必須要非常足夠的一個理由因此程序正義是非常重要的是不是應該給予這部分剛才在納保法裡面有相關的權益的修訂是不是也應該要考量呢"},{"start":6330.124,"end":6349.009,"text":"報告委員我們現在所有的行政規則包含檢視令根據稅法的規定根據法律的規定都要進行一定的法律程序不是說隨便我們今天財政部要發就可以發他有一定的法律程序是不是因為其實有很多的一個意見出來了啦我是不是也請說財政部在大概在"},{"start":6350.83,"end":6362.058,"text":"7、8月我們的會期結束之前給我們一個這個在納保官或是納保法上面修訂的制度上面的一個改革的建議或是一個改革的方向給本席那可以給我們兩個月時間嗎是不是最後把這個報告沒有 那就這樣子那就三個月之內好嗎好 謝謝謝謝蘇冰接著請李燕秀召委質詢"},{"start":6377.739,"end":6384.877,"text":"谢谢我们的来会委员我接下来是不是可以请我们庄部长庄部长"},{"start":6390.714,"end":6399.106,"text":"委員好 部長好 我要延續劉淑冰委員的質詢新青岸的政策 一個政策出來到底什麼時候公佈 政策的銜接過程到底會怎麼去處理 這個都是外界關注的"},{"start":6408.138,"end":6423.258,"text":"我覺得一個政府的政策不應該讓外界天天猜大概方向上到底是什麼不要搞得市場是草木皆兵所以我還是非常關心清安的2.0的政策到底方向未來到底是什麼你們什麼時候打算公佈"},{"start":6425.541,"end":6438.114,"text":"那剛才你沒有回答其他委員所以我也不好去逼你說結論到底是什麼但從市場上聽到的 媒體上看到什麼年收入排付條款年收入200萬總價上限3500萬還有另外一個貸款年齡50歲加上年齡所有的80條款那你可不可以給我一個答案到底什麼時候要公佈"},{"start":6447.967,"end":6455.235,"text":"跟委員報告我想在兩個禮拜內一定會公佈也就是兩個禮拜今天7月8號兩週內一定會公佈是的好謝謝部長那我再請問一個問題如果新青安過渡期間7月底已經簽約核帶中的青年人如何保障相關就是說核帶的還沒下來但是7月底之前已經簽約了那怎麼辦"},{"start":6471.947,"end":6480.071,"text":"對於已經核代的 我們講我們的權益一定是會保障他的就是已經簽約 但還沒簽完 還在申辦當中你會保障他應該有的權益因為以申請的時間為主嘛 對吧好的 謝謝 謝謝部長那我可以問第二個問題就是說養育未成年子女家庭會未來會不會放寬他的上限門檻"},{"start":6495.058,"end":6509.434,"text":"這個是很多委員都有關注到的我目前是單一排付的條款但是我要提到就是說包括年輕的夫妻結婚他還沒有生育小孩或包括頂客族他年收入如果200萬跟我有"},{"start":6511.937,"end":6524.846,"text":"我有小孩那個家庭的負擔包括育兒教育醫療的負擔是相對不同的所以這個部分未來我們會不會有差異化未來這個部分會不會有差異化的處理報告您所提的這個確實我們當時也是有考慮到我們不會把它變成一個懲罰性的一個懲罰性的一個條件的就是排富的部分不會變成懲罰性"},{"start":6540.356,"end":6561.374,"text":"OK 就是說未成年家庭的子女跟免稅額現在朝野黨派不管哪一個政黨其實對於有養育未成年子女在稅額上其實都有減免包括在婚姻家庭在房屋跟土地稅的部分都有相關的減免所以未來對於婚姻家庭對於還有未成年的子女"},{"start":6562.074,"end":6588.128,"text":"在這一塊我希望可以把這個因素納進去那剛才你有說確實有把這個因素納進去對 婚育家庭在清安的3.0裡面會把它放進去有關貸款額度會有一些不同的不是婚育家庭 不只是婚育家庭婚育家庭還有差別是有小孩跟沒小孩對 就是有小孩就是婚育我們必須依照這個內政部的一個定義就是婚家庭有未成年子女的也是包含在內"},{"start":6591.67,"end":6594.891,"text":"謝謝部長你的回應就是說我覺得整件事情兩個禮拜之內接下來會有一個更明確的3.0的方向出來我們相信會對社會大眾說明好 謝謝我覺得青年人不是在搶房我覺得是在搶政府的好的政策"},{"start":6610.337,"end":6625.93,"text":"所以一個好的政策也不應該讓市場到處猜風向到底是怎麼樣這也不是我們的原意謝謝部長你剛才比較清楚的回應接下來第二部分我就要就納稅義務跟包括保單的稅相關的課稅的規範現在的問題跟部長做討論"},{"start":6631.474,"end":6651.312,"text":"我們在113年在憲法法庭有針對於一證稅的部分第15條第一款的部分有相關的規範包括為妥善規範配偶及其他繼承人的稅務的負擔的部分還有第二欠缺配偶包括財產額包括"},{"start":6654.875,"end":6660.139,"text":"請求相關的扣除額的負擔的部分這個部分憲法法庭的解釋是說它是抵觸我們現在憲法第七條的平等權甚至可能構成掏空繼承權的絞殺性的租稅並且憲法法庭當時的說法是要求我們財政部要在限期兩年內應該完成修法"},{"start":6683.095,"end":6704.509,"text":"那這個期限就會是落在今年的十月底那很多委員針對於這個法案都有提相關的一些法條出來法律案出來那這個部分未來財政部會不會有你們自己的版本是的 我們的一證稅法的修正草案已經提報行政院行政院政務委員也審查完畢"},{"start":6705.199,"end":6723.726,"text":"那近期院會通過後就會送大院來審議是現在已經送行政院了對 已經送行政院行政院的政委也已經審查完畢了那應該就會經過院會同意就會提報就會送到大院來審議所以到時候我們參會會在審的時候你們也會有行政院的"},{"start":6724.366,"end":6728.289,"text":"會有圓滿出來謝謝部長你的回應最後一個我就要請問有關於保單受益人非繼承人如何解決前一陣子我有看到一個新聞有一個被繼承人生前死亡人他用"},{"start":6741.578,"end":6744.381,"text":"頓繳的方式 把上百張保單 高達1.6億全部這1.6億的保險金 繼承人沒有拿到兒子女兒太太沒有拿到 但是全部都捐給了寺廟這個2000多萬的遺產稅 最後是變成是繼承來負擔"},{"start":6762.24,"end":6783.439,"text":"這個跟113年當時憲法法庭的判決其實非常類似錢是寺廟拿走但是他後面遺申稅的部分卻由配偶跟子女來去做繼承那這整件事情所以我才覺得說我們整個遺産稅制要整體做一個評估其實財產歸誰 遺産歸誰稅負就應該"},{"start":6788.743,"end":6816.726,"text":"跟著誰來去做負擔這個部分大方向應該是一體適用由實際受領保險金的受益人就其應負擔的稅額來去繳納應當付稅的義務這應該是一個比較完整的方向所以在這一次的這個包括保單的受益人非繼承人如何去解決也會在你們討論的這一次你們送出來版本裡面會有方向嗎"},{"start":6818.028,"end":6823.011,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次修法主要是針對憲法法庭的那個判決所以我們五軸大概三個字條都要處理這一塊那有一部分是我們現在實務上有一些問題的我們順便解決但這個案子基本上它"},{"start":6840.161,"end":6854.356,"text":"我覺得報導因為案情本身不是很清楚但正常來說如果他這個保單生源不是繼承人他列到遺產如果真的有列到遺產去課稅的時候基本上所計算出來的遺產稅只會從遺產中去執行簡單講他只會在遺產的範圍內去繳稅而已"},{"start":6860.603,"end":6880.761,"text":"但是這個個案我從媒體上看到其實就是1.6億的保險金的繼承人繼承全部都捐給寺廟但是當時在合克的時候他就算是那個1.6億的接下來就變成還是他的遺產那最後變成配偶跟子女全部要負擔那個遺產稅所以我剛才才問部長說財產歸誰拿"},{"start":6887.367,"end":6909.195,"text":"那個後面遺產稅大方向大原則這個或許是一個個案但未來會不會有相關的個案因為可能在遺產在規劃遺產的時候很多人說這個未來他可能不是歸給他的配偶或是他可能給第三方或第四方甚至給他照顧他最後生前最後一段的人他可能不是親屬所以我才說財產歸誰"},{"start":6911.676,"end":6931.84,"text":"後面的遺產稅的那個負擔就應該是歸當時的人就是大原則大方向我才就這個方向跟署長做討論是我跟委員報告其實委員這個想法是比較像有些國家採用所謂的繼承稅制他就會變成就繼承所繼承金額來課遺產稅"},{"start":6934.781,"end":6961.618,"text":"但台灣目前產行的叫總遺產稅制它是用延續了像美國的那種制度簡單地講就是說它是以被繼承人死亡時他所留下的遺產作為課稅的對象那它的目的是彌補這個被繼承人在生前如果他有賺取所得如果所得稅課得不夠還是有造成所得財富分配不公平的時候我對被繼承最後一次來做一個清算所以原則上它是遺產"},{"start":6962.739,"end":6985.843,"text":"留下遺產 繳完嬰產稅才會分下來給他的繼承人那像這個說法我推斷應該是說這個繼承人 配偶跟繼承人認為原來我可以拿更多的啊那因為被捐把錢捐出去了以致於他拿不了這麼多所以他覺得侵害了他的繼承權但事實上他剩下遺產真的就沒有那麼多了"},{"start":6986.857,"end":7002.267,"text":"我不曉得我看我們再去做一個瞭解看實際上他的情況以及合克遺產稅是不是這樣的好不好好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝張維接著請李坤城委員發言好謝謝主席我們請彭主委好彭主委"},{"start":7021.664,"end":7042.01,"text":"委員長 主委好 大家都很關心國泰投信這件事情你們現在已經開始對不只國泰投信 整個國泰金控的集團進行精檢之前局長賴局長說精檢是到今天結束還是說現在還在精檢當中還會繼續再延長"},{"start":7044.411,"end":7070.108,"text":"好我想待會請局長就是我們預計比如說這個是對國泰投信應該是7月8號嘛就今天那待會可以請局長說明上上一周我們是針對那個立官人通報的部分我們就請他們再去因為他跟整個集團有關就稍微大聲一點對對對就說因為是針對立官人通報的問題嘛那是跟跟集團子公司有關我們就是派派檢察局去了解我想請局長來做"},{"start":7071.569,"end":7089.157,"text":"我想要了解就是說 第一個 精檢的時間是到今天還是會繼續延長那第二個呢 本來只有國泰投信 那為什麼後來現在連國泰金控整個集團都要去精檢是還有發現其他的問題嗎你包含證券 售險 人壽都去精檢了是有發現其他的問題嗎 所以擴大精檢的範圍"},{"start":7090.814,"end":7102.965,"text":"第一點先跟主委員報告就是有關於投信的部分是在今天會結束今天下午才會結束這是投信的部分嘛那可是你們不只有投信嘛對不對當然我們後來又再去"},{"start":7106.889,"end":7128.024,"text":"針對金控跟其他的子公司在做一個了解的部分是了解有關於他的利害關係人的資料的一個通報跟於這個資料的一個控管的部分所以我們來進行一個再去釐清這個相關的問題是局長 等一下可以回答再大聲一點好 那是什麼樣的原因讓你升這個金檢的這個範圍升級了"},{"start":7134.211,"end":7161.865,"text":"這個主委要來答還是局長要來答好沒想我們其實主要是這樣因為大家關切的是說他們在集團內到底比如說他們有沒有內部建立一個比如說彼此互相通報的機制這些內控機制其他子公司是怎麼運作的那所以我們就請他們到各個子公司去了解他們是彼此怎麼運作是單獨是一家公司的問題還是整個集團有它一致的一些規定還是"},{"start":7162.165,"end":7176.067,"text":"各個別有不同的規定去了解這個實際的狀況以來輔助於在國泰投信釐清這件事情的主要內容所以整件事情因為我剛剛聽到其他委員有在問兩個禮拜之後會結束會有結果"},{"start":7177.229,"end":7201.675,"text":"就是剛剛講說因為我們的檢查報告是不會對外公佈但是我們的最後的比如說我們對外的採取這些內容細節會對外去做說明所以看我們的採取說明書上面是會有對裡面的一些違規情節會做說明但是我們檢查報告那在過去我們是沒有公佈的但是剛剛是講我們對於檢查的情形可以對外說明"},{"start":7203.075,"end":7209.168,"text":"好 那我的意思是就是說這件事情是國泰金控內部的問題"},{"start":7211.205,"end":7239.191,"text":"這是比如說投信跟這個金控申報的問題還是所有的金融機構跟他們投信之間都有類似的問題這個我們要了解因為其實上我們看到很多在金融內控制度上都有個問題就是說他們其實規定都有規定都有那可能是第一個執行上面沒有落實或是執行的方式大家認知有差異但是這個規定不是每家都長一樣"},{"start":7240.071,"end":7255.654,"text":"所以其實上這還要去釐清因為我們對這種比如說你的規定不是每家都長一樣你們這個沒有指引嗎沒有相關的規定嗎就是對於像比如說我們對有涉及到個人資料的部分因為我們有個資法還有過去我們很多資料的使用的指引是有的"},{"start":7256.295,"end":7279.303,"text":"但是對於集團內你們自己在取得比如說當事人同意的情況你怎麼去做這個各自之間的這些的轉這個所謂的通報這是他們個別是有個別的規定這是部分我們到沒有強制因為這是牽涉到這個我們沒有去強制規定這個東西但是我們基於內控比如說我們要求要避免那個立官人的訪免你當然要有"},{"start":7280.584,"end":7304.227,"text":"這個機制去做啊除了自己的風暴那現在你認為說你們目前的規定指引都沒有問題是國泰進口內部的問題不是 等於說一件事情發生以後呢可能過去認為這個制度是沒有問題的但是因為透過事件我們才能夠去理解我的意思說比如說那未來有要做什麼樣的檢討跟修正嗎"},{"start":7304.687,"end":7328.778,"text":"第一個就是我們會來檢討上次我們文匯提到就是說那為了避免像這種的這個在發案這個情形我們是不是要該建立多重機制的通報不要仰賴單線的通報比如說除了要求當事人要主動申報還有就是集團之間假設有申報意願能夠做一個在符合各支法的情況之下做一個通報這樣的話用"},{"start":7331.806,"end":7350.098,"text":"等於說多重機制去防免這個比如說漏報或是這個申報沒有辦法完整的這樣的情形好 那再問一下那這個最後精簡看起來比如說投信今天結束嘛那整個這個集團這一個大概兩個禮拜之內會有結果那這個會不會有處罰"},{"start":7352.839,"end":7371.08,"text":"當然違反規定就會處罰我們按照檢查跟這些我們比如陳述意見書這些都是希望跟我們的授檢單位能夠釐清事實知道比如說這個違規的事實是不是雙方所確認這件事情那這是一定要先確認違規的事實我們才能做處罰嘛"},{"start":7371.741,"end":7377.524,"text":"好 然後再問一下現在他的這一個損失將近10億 9.48億那這個10億的損失是當事人買單國內金庫買單還是全體的股東買單"},{"start":7385.378,"end":7403.23,"text":"現在的話就等於說第一個假設以以現在他們做所做的通報來看的話因為你跟你的客戶之間是因為你的比如說你有相關的那個為失而導致損失當然比如說對啊他的那個基金補償就4.94啊4.94億嘛他這已經完成撥付那我是問說整體的這個損失那這個他們會這個列入這個這個財報裡面這個我們有這些損失那最後會不會是由全體的投資人來負擔這個損失"},{"start":7415.659,"end":7424.626,"text":"這個當然因為他的損失的話呢基本上就會反映在他的收益的減少那最後賠的錢也不是國內金融的錢是所有的投資者的錢啊"},{"start":7426.122,"end":7446.414,"text":"這個就是我們所有的這樣那個損失要怎麼去認可那你覺得這樣合理嗎沒有 我想這是一般我們假如損害產生應該如何去那個有 現在損害已經產生了啊它也賠了這個將近10億我是問說這10億最後如果是由這些一般的這些投資者"},{"start":7447.415,"end":7458.178,"text":"阿他們來負擔這樣公平嗎這個所以要釐清那個責任阿是誰導致這個問題而且責任不是已經大概都蠻清楚了嗎就是他們內部申報有問題去踩到紅線去買到不應該這個他這個擔任董事的這個獨董的這個基金嘛這個事實蠻明顯的阿對所以我的意思是說假設能夠確認是維持在哪裡就有"},{"start":7470.344,"end":7485.197,"text":"那個發聲為師的單位來責任現在看起來就是比如說假設是投信的話就是投信的他應該要負擔這個責任我現在負擔這個責任那我是說最後不會就是變成所有投資者一起來負這個責任"},{"start":7487.605,"end":7513.254,"text":"對 這我們在把它釐清以後再跟委員報告不是 我是說不要發生這種事情啦有沒有辦法避免發生這種事情當然啦 就說 我想說任何一件像這種發生立官人這樣而導致這樣去調整產生的損失我們都要非常非常注意 是啊那我的要求就是說不應該把這個公司內部的事情把它外部化那讓這些投資者最後啊我說啊賠了這個9.48億結果最後是由所有投資者他們來負擔啊我覺得不應該這樣子啊對 這"},{"start":7516.691,"end":7540.194,"text":"所以這個應該要避免啊 金管會能不能避免這件事情來發生對 當然我們所有這個東西 我們都會來想看怎麼樣避免這件事情來發生也不應該發生嘛 發生這個我覺得這樣不合理啊 你覺得這樣合理嗎當然有很多合不合理的問題 我們都還是回歸到法的程度當然啊 就是如果違規了 要全部的人負擔 就不合理嘛 對不對"},{"start":7541.343,"end":7550.448,"text":"對啊好那剩下一點點時間齁這個齁其實我上禮拜有質詢過那我還特別齁有找了這個你們這個金管會的這些同仁協會過來來談齁這個"},{"start":7554.583,"end":7578.818,"text":"針對這個領苦開盤的時間那我剛剛看這個國務委員他有問因為你們來的人都沒辦法承諾因為他給我的資料說哇還要在這個什麼116年7月完成這個領苦這個開盤的時間這個可以從9點10分然後呢提早到9點然後現在是確定我剛剛聽那個林董講是確定是今年底"},{"start":7579.966,"end":7597.679,"text":"就可以這個零股跟這個我們大盤一起就對了就是九點開始報告委員是的對啊這個還是要你們來講才有用我找你們經國外同仁來說都不敢做決定啊還要問卷啊還要這個預計到明年的七月才能完成那現在還有一個啦"},{"start":7598.895,"end":7617.642,"text":"這個我們零股買賣撮合的時間現在是五秒現在會縮成一秒縮成一秒對何時會縮成一秒今年年底也是今年年底對問你們就比較快啦再問那些你們同仁都不敢做決定來來林總五秒剩一秒對不起我說錯了你說錯了"},{"start":7622.366,"end":7649.938,"text":"這不是明年七月啦蛤 還要到明年七月 這太久了吧這為什麼要到明年七月因為這個部分來講的話 證券商的系統的問題因為我們必須要讓我們整個配合證券商改系統的原因我這樣知道改系統需要時間嘛明年七月時間太長了啦現在領股交易這麼熱絡 你還要改到明年七月時間能不能延長這逼一逼就會縮短了啦 時間能不能延長"},{"start":7652.244,"end":7678.353,"text":"時間能不能縮短啊 提早啦那個 是不是包委員我們現在是跟證券商我們以系統穩定的考量為主他們是希望這樣那我們是不是容我們再跟他們商量一下我覺得一個制度的實施本身穩定是非常重要的那你期待呢 你期待大概多快可以完成這是不是容我們 因為我們還是要跟證券商談啦"},{"start":7679.694,"end":7700.833,"text":"因為IT的部分所以這個部分我們7月真的是跟證券商不是說我主管的請大家問你有沒有提早的可能性那個還是要問一下證券商所以這真的因為不是交易所能夠盡快啦這個第一批時間就會縮短了好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們李坤臣委員喔接著我們請顏寬藤委員"},{"start":7708.769,"end":7716.393,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席有請我們財政部莊部長還有我們研究公司湯董事長莊部長 湯董事長喔委員好部長好我想先請教我們莊部長"},{"start":7733.743,"end":7749.013,"text":"台北啤酒工廠產能利用率高達96%是高居所有啤酒廠之冠但是它面臨說做得越多虧得越多這種現象連續五年陷入這種營運虧損"},{"start":7750.894,"end":7773.605,"text":"那請問財政部作為大股東針對台北啤酒工廠的一個資產活化跟轉型觀光這個部分那何時才能夠實質的改善那其是不是因為單價成本過高的問題然後呢如何讓這座百年古蹟的廠房能夠轉虧為盈部長可以說明一下嗎有關台北啤酒工廠我們先講說資產活化的部分"},{"start":7779.161,"end":7804.929,"text":"那這個因為裡面的有關那個製酒的是屬於設備的活保存這是一個是古蹟所以在這一塊這個園區範圍內對於古蹟的保存維護這是最重要的另外在這一塊土地如何做最好的利用那部分已經是提供給這個台北科技大學做建校校地使用其餘還有就是由研究公司來未來做開發作為營運總部"},{"start":7806.823,"end":7822.049,"text":"那當然對於苦肌的維護保存這個是非常重要也是會持續的會再做更好的運用那至於它的生產的一些成本等等我想是不是由菸酒公司董事長來為您做說明是好好請湯董說明一下"},{"start":7822.549,"end":7837.723,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告一下我想建國啤酒廠它是一個超過百年的工廠我們最大的生產價值不是生產啤酒而是生產台灣品牌的故事那也是一個很有意義的地方"},{"start":7838.243,"end":7860.741,"text":"那因為周邊現在都已經是商業區也是高級住宅區所以我們在今年的第一季已經把我們西側的7000坪的土地跟另外600坪的倉庫全數都活化也會在今年底全部開幕會增加我們的收益來降低現在這個保留的啤酒工廠的這個成本跟委員報告"},{"start":7862.917,"end":7886.454,"text":"主要當然你說主要這個原因是因為銷售量下滑頭料與是剛委員報告最主要是這個建國啤酒工廠台北啤酒工廠它的產能是屬於比較小的那它不適合在那裡做大量的生產不只台北啤酒工廠因為菸酒公司的九個酒廠裡面有六個六個酒廠都陷入虧損"},{"start":7887.495,"end":7907.144,"text":"那屏東、花蓮、埔里它的虧損持續在擴大那嘉義、宜蘭直接由這個游營轉虧嘛但很多廠長他們的反應是說因為設備老舊設備老舊所以就必須要頻繁的一個停產然後搶修導致這個產能利用率低下"},{"start":7907.904,"end":7922.921,"text":"所以不只是虧損的廠在虧連原本賺錢的也萎縮了我們烏日廠就這樣子烏日散化竹壤啤酒廠這五年的一個固定資產報酬率都幾乎是腰斬所以我想銷售讓下滑"},{"start":7923.902,"end":7940.411,"text":"還有就是說產這個投料跟生產量同步的減少他除了市場結構的改變之外最主要就是面臨國際大廠國際大廠在我們台灣他這個部分他給做了很多的這樣子投入一些大型的廣告宣傳"},{"start":7941.371,"end":7962.637,"text":"那對於這些年輕的客戶群紛紛的都被這些吸引了嘛 是不是所以近期啦 近期我們我知道我們研究公司這邊一直在研發新口味的這樣子的一些產品那其中很多年輕人喜歡的部分這是給予肯定的那也有做對於這個所謂的像動漫"},{"start":7963.998,"end":7972.654,"text":"有跟動漫做一個結合嘛這個確實有對一些年輕族群有一些吸引有一些效果這個要給予肯定但是"},{"start":7975.114,"end":7995.655,"text":"對於未來我們的一個通路這樣子一個創新的策略如何打入年輕人最喜歡的這樣子場所你有做什麼樣的配置跟佈置董事長謝謝委員我想我們接下來最重要的因為國營企業我們的第一目標是會降低我們的製造成本"},{"start":7996.315,"end":8011.65,"text":"我們的產能利用率偏低是因為來自於設備都很多都是20年以上過去公賣的時代因為專賣所以產能都特別大那回應一下剛剛委員的說法其實我們九個酒廠在去年有三個酒廠"},{"start":8012.711,"end":8030.305,"text":"宜蘭花蓮跟屏東產能利用率都有持續的提升那烏日啤酒廠今年也會獲利跟委員報告那至於品牌的部分年輕化跟創新還有年輕人喜歡淡口味的啤酒的部分我們會持續的繼續的來加強董事長你們去年114年度"},{"start":8037.292,"end":8047.31,"text":"今年1.15年度的本期淨利比去年就減少了10億多所以面對這樣子的一個盈利的短缺"},{"start":8048.413,"end":8063.758,"text":"那你有什麼樣的做法跟我們報告我們的業績的稅前淨利的短缺百分之接近80是來自於加熱鹽 香菸沒有通過那啤酒的部分 啤酒減低大概21%1到5月我們啤酒現在應該下滑是2%我這邊的數據是2%我想就是說因為"},{"start":8074.352,"end":8102.358,"text":"有精良的研發技術跟創新的產品這是好事嘛但是在行銷跟通路的佈局上我們是不是台酒公司相對於這些國際大廠我們就拔卡拔手那感覺好像沒有辦法大開這個大放手腳去做這樣子的一個行銷的策略推動所以我想就是說請教因為我們財政部是大股東嘛要給我們煙酒公司一個正確上政策上的支持讓我們"},{"start":8103.778,"end":8120.272,"text":"台酒公司在未來的一個行銷策略要有充足的子彈才可以跟這些國際大廠來做一個競爭所以請教部長我們要給我們台酒公司什麼樣的一個支持可以說一下嗎我們對於煙酒公司當然第一個一定是支持的"},{"start":8120.692,"end":8146.42,"text":"然后董事长跟总经理也都非常的努力第一个就是在品牌上除了研发新的一个品牌因为消费者的一个消费习惯或者是说喜好也不断的转变那他们也非常努力的开发相关的新的产品那第二个就在行销策略上也不断的更新然后让高纲社会能够接轨让大家可以更认识我们台酒公司的好的产品"},{"start":8147.182,"end":8151.063,"text":"那當然剛剛也提到加熱菸的部分那加熱菸因為必須要"},{"start":8151.732,"end":8176.044,"text":"通過健康風險評估那已經送衛福部去做這個部分那已經委員會的審議已經有是第九次請他們再補充資料那這個部分我們也請菸酒公司儘快把資料補充那我們也請我們的國庫署的署長也有去跟衛福部這邊去了解他們到底需要再補什麼樣的資料能夠更具體讓他們能夠儘快的通過健康風險評估能夠生產製造販售是"},{"start":8180.127,"end":8200.61,"text":"部長 我們國營事業不只是要追求獲利就是主要啦 部長 部長我們是要能夠帶動產業發展 對不對提升我們國家品牌的價值當然是的對嘛 對嘛 所以所以說財政部要全力的來支持然後也要善盡督導支持像這個百年品牌 是"},{"start":8201.21,"end":8211.984,"text":"台酒這個百年品牌能夠成功的找到我們的成長動能不只是在國內啦國內市場要守住嘛還要開拓國際市場謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":8215.831,"end":8242.429,"text":"好的那因為時間有限那我想再請教一下部長就是說我們6月19日公股銀行的這張董總臨時會議提到的這一些防詐ATM的部分那這個是今年的銀行業務的重點佈局那只要提款者面部有這些遮掩物或者是口罩安全帽墨鏡之類的那ATM就會發出這個警示"},{"start":8244.712,"end":8250.071,"text":"主要就是要防止這些車手但是目前因為上次我們金管會主委"},{"start":8251.5,"end":8273.556,"text":"的質詢他提到說到4月底我們的設置只有2%公股銀行的部分那到今年的年底會達到30%那面對接下來這8個月要提升15倍這個部分那財政部是否有掌握公股銀行的一個這樣子的一個升級的時程目前到底是多少這第一個問題第二個問題就是說"},{"start":8276.345,"end":8299.568,"text":"道高於恥 謀高於仗你知道詐騙的這些車手他一定會改變他的策略既然你供股的有這些防範的這些遮掩物的這樣子的一些防止這些東西所以車手就會大量的轉移到民營銀行的這些體管機ATM去做提領"},{"start":8300.765,"end":8319.893,"text":"那如果說這樣子的情況那這些民營的他有沒有跟上他有沒有調隊民營的銀行他輸量會比公營的多所以會變成說所有的這些詐騙的車手都跑去民營的提款機去取款這個部分那他們跟我們公營"},{"start":8321.033,"end":8348.1,"text":"公股銀行的提款機這樣子有沒有同步我們要達到30%那他們到底幾%這是第二個問題那如果說我們財政部是不是可以跟金管會這些跨部會跨體系的聯防機制避免說這些防照的效果會有一個排擠作用因為都公股在做都政府機關在做所以民營也跟不上那這樣子所有的詐騙車手都跑去民營的"},{"start":8349.512,"end":8364.281,"text":"這樣子會變成另外一個大漏洞所以這個問題就是說部長在這邊就因為時間的關係希望部長可以來很重視這個問題跟我們金管會跟我們公股銀行將這一些聯防機制把它做好可以嗎"},{"start":8365.475,"end":8394.2,"text":"跟委員報告有關ATM導入臉部遮蔽的市井功能那我想金管會是鼓勵各銀行設置這樣的一個功能那在財政部來說當然我們會督導我們的公股行貨儘快去做這個普遍性要給一個標準要求我們要求他們儘快去做這樣的一個市井功能然後能夠打造普遍性"},{"start":8394.5,"end":8395.861,"text":"好的 謝謝部長謝謝閻寬恆委員接著我們請賴慧媛委員謝謝主席 我們請部長跟主委我們請莊部長跟彭主委 謝謝"},{"start":8418.476,"end":8442.121,"text":"委員好兩位兩位好我首先先請那個請教主委就是在上個月我們已經通過了虛擬資產的服務法那我們也建立了虛擬資產的這個業者的許可證的一個制度了在新的制度底下虛擬資產的業者跟基因管會所建立的其他的業別"},{"start":8443.101,"end":8463.597,"text":"是不是一樣也是一個我們金融的特許行業嗎虛擬資產是不是金融特許行業他現在應該是在我們定位裡面他是個特許行業但並不是說我們的金融業對是我們金管會轄下的一個特許事業但應該按照我們現在定義他不是金融業"},{"start":8464.358,"end":8471.169,"text":"好 那主委我再請教你如果說像你講的那他是適用那個營業稅法的第10條還是11條呢他是扣2%還是扣5%呢"},{"start":8478.307,"end":8507.675,"text":"這時候按照我們的那個他如果是不是金融機構的話他現在應該還是不是不是按照金融機構的方式來課稅啊你的主張是什麼當然我現在要聽一下你的主張等一下我問財政部對因為這個主要是在稅上的課我當然尊重財政部我說就以那個屬性來看的話所以你現在也還還沒有很明確的就是說把它定格在因為你要看財政部的態度嘛"},{"start":8507.875,"end":8525.284,"text":"所以就是我們在我們對金融機構的管理上面那確實他是不屬於我們的金融機構謝謝主委部長我想這個虛擬資產法在財政那個行政院的審查的時候政委有沒有邀請財政部一起去參與"},{"start":8526.745,"end":8540.821,"text":"在虛擬資產這個服務法在審核的時候財政部應該都是有去參與的有去參與那所以就是說在你的主張裡頭就是虛擬資產它是適用在第10條還是第11條呢我是不是請那個複稅署的署長來做說明複稅署署長"},{"start":8547.543,"end":8574.582,"text":"報告委員是因為第十條他是一般的營業人他不是金融業者對他是適用在一般營業者對對對因為我們對金融業是有定義的那都是跟著金管會的定義可是你如果就是說現行的法規那你如果是用在第十條的話那他的扣稅是扣5%但是他有進向稅額是可以扣的那他只有針對服務費跟手續費的部分"},{"start":8576.967,"end":8597.427,"text":"那剛才主委他講 他講說它是一個金融性的商品是 但它不是金融 它不是金融那它算不算是在這個金融性的一個第十一條金融性的商品裡頭有七種 就是說銀行跟保險的 那5%以外的就是另外的"},{"start":8598.394,"end":8627.717,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們11條是用在金融業就是那個主體要先是金融業那因為虛擬資產業者我們叫VSP他並不是金融業所以他不是用11條但然後他是用第10條的時候他是用雖然是5%的業稅但是他只有針對服務費跟手續費而不是整個虛擬資產的價值來課稅第二個他如果有鏡像稅額因為他是用加值型業稅所以他那個鏡像稅額是可以扣抵的"},{"start":8630.942,"end":8645.479,"text":"主委我想這個有一些爭議 那這個爭議其實我想再請教主委就是說虛擬資產的一個本業 它的本業跟非本業你怎麼去界定它呢"},{"start":8646.139,"end":8662.265,"text":"其實跟委員報告就是我們虛擬資產它是一個一個綜合性的業態像剛才我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面有針對它可經營的業務有些人做很窄比如他只做保管商遺傳商還有平台商那會根據不同的它會有不一樣的屬性"},{"start":8663.385,"end":8678.224,"text":"它跟我們現在這種機構還是有些不一樣當然有些地方還是會有點類似像比如說假如做借貸商它有可能比較像但是這個東西又是一個全新的領域那我們會根據接下來的發展再來看怎麼樣來去處理這些的問題不過"},{"start":8678.885,"end":8699.119,"text":"沒有錯主委 你看喔 如果我們套用第十一條的邏輯的話就是你講的這個保管商 你的保管商還是你的交易所這個其實一個保管商是用在銀行 那你交易所你其實是適用在證件期貨這兩個性質是完全不同"},{"start":8700.1,"end":8720.721,"text":"完全不同的時候你要把它分別課2%還是5%那甚至如果像負稅署講的財政部這樣講的他是講說他是用在那個第10條那你們兩個是不是應該好好的討論一下當然我先提到這個因為我們剛開放這種新的那個業態出來的時候"},{"start":8722.262,"end":8750.612,"text":"那因為尤其像比如說假設保管部銀行是做兼業的話那他兼業的部分他兼的是另外一個那個行業那當然在課稅上面我們當然就要把他釐清我想這部分我們會跟財政部對兩個部會兩個部會應該是要進行那個磋商討論就是說給我一個書面報告如果覺得要修法就應該要提案該提案就要提案好不好"},{"start":8752.513,"end":8776.224,"text":"好謝謝那接著我來請教一下財政部長那個部長在金管會在今年5月5號針對的家族那個信託那這個百年傳承的課稅的一個原則其實已經達成了一個共識那他還發了新聞稿他還替那個財政部講了他說你們會發布那個課稅的一個示函可是"},{"start":8777.585,"end":8788.593,"text":"這個兩個月過去了我們沒有看到你們提出來這個原因是為什麼我想這個部分我們跟警管會還在持續的討論當中還在持續的討論當中兩個還在討論好 主委我要問的是我的這個老農家族信託"},{"start":8799.264,"end":8826.76,"text":"老農家族信託你給本席回復的就是說他其實就是在農花產業條例的第33條有明文規定明文規定就是說那個施法人不得承受那個耕地啊那就是他你就把這一套來告訴我所以就是自愛難行這個農地的傳承可是當這個是在26年前的一個法規"},{"start":8827.78,"end":8848.814,"text":"他做的一個那個法律的一個條文的一個修正的時候如果讓這個法律就卡住的話那金管會向來是一個比較積極的做事的一個單位是謝謝你們不想做了嗎也不是我想說法律是用來解決問題的對他已經製造問題我們當然會主動來去"},{"start":8851.676,"end":8867.322,"text":"因為只是說我們在回覆委員說以現況來看他確實是因為他要移到信託區那確實是就那個有一些法律的障礙那如果說真的比如說社會真的有這個需求我們就要想辦法來解決這個問題"},{"start":8868.382,"end":8885.009,"text":"社會當然有這些需求你也同意啊這麼多這麼多的一個產業這麼多的一些就是說你有這麼多的一個農地然後你這一個工具你只是靠那個農業金庫事實上它是受限的"},{"start":8885.669,"end":8907.436,"text":"那如果就是說我們根據課稅的法定主義者那個稅法卡住了我們都能夠協調處理的那為什麼這個農地的法規我們要選擇放棄呢這個沒有道理啊如果你這樣子消極了一個處理的話跟你一般家族信託的一個積極的推進那就完全是兩種不同的態度啊"},{"start":8908.579,"end":8928.894,"text":"沒有委員您誤會了就是說我們並沒有說就是打住我只是說因為其實我們在談那個未來整個上次上次委員質詢也關注過這個老農的問題農地的問題嘛這些問題確實是我們現在因為我們的信託確實在民國85年定到現在確實是有一段時間了那這也是為什麼我們這次在檢討假設說"},{"start":8930.655,"end":8951.134,"text":"未來我們整個傳承或是在做一個永續的這樣的一個比如說資產管理的時候這個是很重要所以我們也是尋求在未來在我們那個資產管理跟金融發展的專法裡面能夠針對這種信託能夠針對這部分來做一些突破這是我們未來規劃的方向啦"},{"start":8951.594,"end":8959.544,"text":"我想主委你有看到其實農民的資產的一個傳承是台灣特有社會的一個需求像我們常常會講這個它是產業其實許多的台灣的老農"},{"start":8967.192,"end":8985.19,"text":"憑藉著幾塊農地 他的資產遠遠都超過上億他到了第二代 第三代的子孫可以不務農 可是他們希望保有農地這一類的產業化的資產傳承的需求我們還是希望透過家族信託這樣的資產的傳承"},{"start":8988.273,"end":9004.407,"text":"這個是我們台灣特有社會的一個需要您提到這個問題就是說我們在推動這個連續信託其實不是只是針對所謂的大家認為是很有錢的人它其實可以來解決很多社會的問題因為我們"},{"start":9007.429,"end":9020.743,"text":"等於說我們世代都會移轉下去不管說你是很有錢或是你有這些問題要解決的我們假設把健全化這個信託制度以後其實我們也希望解決多面向的問題不是只是解決所謂的有錢人的問題不是這樣的"},{"start":9023.465,"end":9047.553,"text":"謝謝我想主委金管會就是對於金融商品的設計跟信託架構的一個研議然後找農業部就是農民身份的一個認定跟農地的永續永續的一個利用的研整還有法務部就是信託法跟那個農花條例的法律的解釋跟協調我想這種跨部會的一個協商我們趕快啟動好吧好的好謝謝兩位謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝賴委員"},{"start":9060.888,"end":9062.95,"text":"謝謝 接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席那我們就請金管會請彭主委保險局保險的業務我看 詢問主委通常都可以啦沒有沒有 我也好"},{"start":9082.789,"end":9101.252,"text":"主委是保險的專家想請教這個保護跟這個保險公司相關的這些權利跟義務這個如果有一家保險公司他因為他的內部資訊系統出錯然後缺乏長期的集合導致他比如說持續的預發業務員的這個服務報酬那他們內部內控失靈然後接著他後來要去跟他的這個業務員"},{"start":9110.219,"end":9137.759,"text":"要這些預發的薪資的時候那之後如果業務員本身當然也是公司的這個保護吧比如離職的也是公司的保護那是公司的保護他也是一個這個要解約嘛他講說他針對他這些保單解約解約的時候是不是會有一定的這些保單的這個剩餘的這些價值吧現金價值現金價值好那在這個時候您覺得這個保險公司依法"},{"start":9138.539,"end":9153.739,"text":"有沒有權利扣住這些所謂現金價值的東西然後來向來然後再這當然還在訴訟啦這個保險公司跟幼兒園之間進行訴訟那保險公司有沒有權利"},{"start":9155.44,"end":9180.467,"text":"來扣住應該給付的這些一些叫節約金吧現金價值然後來做抵銷的這個行為呢是我想我們問的是一個非常非常那個技術上法律上的問題對因為假設我們的像我們對於保險金的部分是有法律上的明文對他那個比如說還有就是客戶在公司裡面的債權優於一般的債權他是有這個規定"},{"start":9181.867,"end":9204.698,"text":"客戶在公司保護的債權優於一般的債權那今天來講比如說他今天是個人可能跟公司之間有一些可能債務的問題債權債務關係那但是因為他在公司這邊又有一個保單權利的主張比如他這個他有解約金可以領公司可不可以直接從他的解約金救援就把它"},{"start":9206.858,"end":9233.786,"text":"或者說等他取得以後再去查扣這是這樣一個問題這裡面的話就是實務上的話我不知道你們在實務上有沒有做過這樣一個處理我們依法論法呢現在的現金價值的部分的話應該解約金應該是沒有法律上是沒有做一個比較優先順位的保障但是說實務上怎麼做我可不可以請他們那個保險局"},{"start":9235.252,"end":9260.932,"text":"這個我提示一下 這個保險法我們去年有修一百二十三支一條這個有一個保護就是某一個範圍內這是去年在這邊修的主委也在嘛 要記得嘛我們那時候還在爭論說離島地區跟這個城區市 都會區啊這個保單的這個最低生活額大概保這個額度大概是多少那如果以台北市來講的話它的這個最低生活的這個"},{"start":9263.133,"end":9270.437,"text":"這個最低的應該保障的是六個月的生活的這個生活費的最低生活費的乘以1.5倍吧那在這個情況下怎麼處理呢就是如果有這樣的case"},{"start":9279.828,"end":9302.466,"text":"這個是強制執行的一個案件還沒到強制執行保護跟這個保護跟這個保險公司都還在訴訟當中還沒有確定誰是誰非的情況下保險公司是否有權利針對這個保護他的這個剛剛我們這個監管會所說的這個現金價值先進行做比如說他認為說有抵銷的動作要先進行做抵銷或不發給這個這些剩餘的這些現金價值呢"},{"start":9311.679,"end":9322.372,"text":"我不是講個案 如果有這種情形呢進入司法程序強制執行也是司法院法院的一個職權還沒有司法 還沒有這個呢我要知道說"},{"start":9325.896,"end":9339.006,"text":"在我們的這個體制裡頭保險體制裡頭保險公司跟這個這個保護之間它的之間的比如說如果這個保護不要說是一發什麼錢保護對這個相關的有債權障礙在這個情況下有沒有一個一定的標準呢"},{"start":9340.262,"end":9360.082,"text":"對 我想說假設剛剛委員也很清楚假設已經進入強制執行程序沒有 還沒有進入強制執行程序如果還在前面還在司法訴訟也沒有誰是誰非也不知道的情況下也不知道這個是不是這一發的錢是有還是沒有這個都還不能確定一下這個保險公司身為一個巨獸是不是有有權利先行把這個錢留下來或者說"},{"start":9362.384,"end":9381.785,"text":"可能是在某個階段比如說根據我們的123條之一123條之一的這個法律就是有一定的生活費的保障然後後面的可以扣或者是什麼情形因為我們當初修法大家都還有記得嘛就是說最低生活保障也是為了保障那保險公司有沒有這個權利全部扣或是部分扣或是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":9383.007,"end":9399.406,"text":"對 我想跟委員那個說明一下就是說我先簡單講一下就是說前面假設已經是按照吻合剛剛我們強制執行那個沒有 現在還沒有強制執行我知道 就是說如果這個的話我們保險法 疾病有強制執行好了就我們這個法有明定了這本來就有一定額度之內一定要留下的辦法 對"},{"start":9401.008,"end":9422.785,"text":"自己說沒有進入到那個狀況的話確實我剛剛跟文回答保險法是沒有他就回到民法你們債權債務的問題去處理這個我的意思是說在這種案子裡頭不管是個案或是通案裡頭業者是不是因為他是用抵銷還沒有講他用抵銷的字眼是不是有這樣的權利我給你看一個內政部"},{"start":9425.578,"end":9442.831,"text":"法院的這個判決內湖檢疫庭有相關的禁止抵銷的法理支撐這個禁止抵銷的法理支撐即便已經判決確定還是必須不允許債權人主張抵銷那這個重點不在這個個案而是在這個處理過程"},{"start":9444.312,"end":9460.563,"text":"我知道民眾有跟這個消費者等於是保護有跟金管會保險局求助那求助的情況下是怎麼樣呢保險局沒有做任何的實質調查就請業者查名妥付請業者查業者就是"},{"start":9461.463,"end":9473.173,"text":"叫業者自己查業者查就說沒有問題那這樣子請問這個消費者保護跟今晚會澄清或跟保險局澄清有什麼意義因為跟我們最近的郵輪事件有點相似"},{"start":9480.488,"end":9506.525,"text":"沒關係我想因為今天剛剛我也跟局長簡單問一下他說這個個案他不清楚我想我回去再去了解一下這個狀況因為在這邊因為很多狀況不明我也很難再直接做回答我也不會不是說針對個案來質詢這個事情因為這個案子事實上就是說我覺得這可能會變成一個普遍的情形就是我們這個在處理相關民眾陳情案的時候常常就是發文說要讓業者知情那業者如果說沒有的時候有時候"},{"start":9508.611,"end":9511.964,"text":"業者是強權嘛那老百姓是弱勢嘛這會進入這種"},{"start":9515.393,"end":9536.56,"text":"落落牆石的那種處境啊金管會還是應該要站在老百姓的立場確實了解這樣是不是一個對的行為啦對就是說我們在處理這個民眾的陳情或檢舉案的時候到底是怎麼樣一個態度我想我會來再去了解那就是說其實我們整個的程序通常是他們會說請他應該是"},{"start":9539.71,"end":9562.438,"text":"就是查明進富嘛然後他會付本會給我們付本給你們以後你們就也沒有下文啊你們也應該做一點判斷啊他們會去看他是不合理性我是怕說很多信老百姓的成因最後都會變成讓人家覺得說政府就是官樣文章當然最後他還是會來找民意代表啦只是說這樣子政府的公信力就會被質疑嘛"},{"start":9563.098,"end":9591.919,"text":"所以我想大家關心就是說其實剛剛委員我只想跟委員澄清說他回文的副本我們的同仁不會不看這一定會看那再來就是說除了這一部分我們還有其他很多的消保機制不過我們這邊這邊就要來強化假設是真的有委員關心的事情我們覺得我們就該改善我們就要來改善就是說其實像這個案子每個案子都有它很不一樣的地方但是我覺得同仁在看到這個回文一定要去好好檢視啦"},{"start":9592.961,"end":9593.162,"text":"我們請莊部長謝謝"},{"start":9602.16,"end":9622.153,"text":"本席在之前應該一兩個月前有跟貴部質詢就是有關國營事業 不管是國營事業或者是公股銀行我們有關股的相關的這些金融機構有關的待遇的問題請問您還記得我質詢的內容嗎"},{"start":9626.363,"end":9626.583,"text":"財政部所屬國營事業"},{"start":9657.324,"end":9673.152,"text":"我們已經提報到行政院總共有五項那其中有關生育的補助已經獲回覆就是都是十萬塊如果不足十萬這個生育補助是全國的這個跟你有沒有關係別的呢就基本待遇呢"},{"start":9673.872,"end":9694.327,"text":"基本待遇的部分因為受到有關國營事業法等等相關法令的限制在這個部分的待遇部分呢其實在金融機構的部分我們已經讓他跟公務員的調薪做脫鉤就是說對於所按照他的績效來做調薪那每兩年會調薪一次 對"},{"start":9695.468,"end":9702.331,"text":"國營事業的部分呢?金融事業那事業機構的部分呢?金融機構你回答,國營事業呢?我關心這個議題是因為我在想我們金九公司是不是跟你們財政部的相關的國營事業TTL這些也是有相關的"},{"start":9719.858,"end":9728.401,"text":"相關的這個掛鉤啦還是說我們事實上請國庫署回答是不是金九公司是現營事業跟國營事業可以不用不用掛鉤啦或者是我們金九公司只要按照我們金門縣自己決定然後金門縣會同意金九公司不是國營事業我知道我當然知道他是現營事業啊那這個部分是必須比照國營事業的做法嗎我問的問題事實上就在這裡啊"},{"start":9749.571,"end":9753.939,"text":"不用是不是他是現營師所以只要金門縣議會金門縣政府編列預算金門縣議會通過這樣就可以了是嗎因為他是屬於現營師是這樣子嗎你給我一個答案"},{"start":9763.263,"end":9781.829,"text":"財政部沒有管到縣議事那個經紀公司是國庫署監督的監管的單位嘛所以不用就對了是不是不用再經過財政部如果對相關這個這個待遇的調整不用再經過我們財政部國庫署對不對是OK好謝謝好謝謝我們結束陳玉珍委員的質詢接下來請王世堅委員"},{"start":9807.517,"end":9811.218,"text":"謝謝主席我請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好莊部長辛苦了這個總算我們要再推出這個在精進版的新清安2.0八月份那麼當然這一次有做了很多改進這是很好的比方說對房屋"},{"start":9837.022,"end":9863.252,"text":"這個總價上限這個限3500萬年齡也確實實質限制了50歲甚至80條款那新興安2.0版這次增加了這個婚育宅的優惠這非常的好這都是正面的部分不過這個部長我先從比較負面的講起啦"},{"start":9864.366,"end":9879.591,"text":"負面的講解就是說最近監察院有一份報告認為說這個財政部要再更努力不要讓新清安成為房價的助燃器"},{"start":9880.885,"end":9902.795,"text":"因為他舉出的這幾個例子我就先不提我就光講這個大數字就好我們從2016年到2020年也就是說發生COVID-19疫情前這四年房價指數漲幅是大概5.4%也就是平均一年"},{"start":9905.618,"end":9925.684,"text":"1.3% 一年才1.3%喔那麼疫情那三年半房價三年半漲了24.9%也就是一年大概7%可是來到新青安2023上路才一年啦房價就漲了12.3%就漲了12.3%這個指數"},{"start":9933.328,"end":9959.393,"text":"所以如果從2016年一年1.3%之後2020年一年7%一直到新青安推出馬上那一年是12.3%這就是新青安跟未來2.0新青安要去注意的要避免成為房價的阻燃器"},{"start":9960.441,"end":9988.143,"text":"那麼當然現在這個新清安推出那我們有要求說那對這個2.0之前這1.0的新清安我們講到的很多說包括人頭戶包括售後的轉租甚至他售後是做營業行為的這樣子的情況你們確實有去查但是就是查"},{"start":9995.946,"end":10011.154,"text":"12.5萬戶12.5萬戶都是土營台營光是查他們兩家的而已喔12.5萬戶裡面啊你們說這個查到有問題的有追回利息補貼的有追回2億啦你們說追回2億1000萬可是"},{"start":10016.926,"end":10031.085,"text":"部長 如果嚴格把它篩選以後根據審計部查核的資料是事實上在新青安的部分你們只查回六千萬的利息啊"},{"start":10032.369,"end":10046.458,"text":"那其他的1億5的利息是舊的是112年前所發生的所以這變成混混混混混在一起你們給我們的報告竟然是說就超回2.1億"},{"start":10048.92,"end":10065.446,"text":"所以我認為實質上該是什麼時候查到的哪時候的哪一個階段的違規要分辨清楚我們才有辦法來查核說到底問題是出在哪裡不是這樣嗎然後你們說有查到2500戶的違規12.5萬戶只查到2500戶違規如果放款啦"},{"start":10076.98,"end":10093.593,"text":"就只有這2500戶違規那是還好喔還不至於太差可是我們從坊間得到的訊息以及從銀行界一些朋友告知我們的可能是不止這個金額那就當2500戶好了2500戶裡面其中啊有高達九成2299戶是違規出租"},{"start":10105.936,"end":10130.733,"text":"另外你說人頭戶的營業戶有197戶人頭戶說只抓到4戶啦但是部長你說人頭戶只有4戶那但是就查台營跟義營借款人沒有收入的學生借款人是沒有收入是學生的高達176件耶請問啊你說人頭戶是4件"},{"start":10136.431,"end":10163.994,"text":"那沒有收入的學生你要不要算人頭學生也來帶他並不是已經就業的青年或者要成家有要婚育需要的青年我們當初新清安這個借貸的優惠的目的是這樣啊那怎麼學生也算數"},{"start":10166.038,"end":10184.205,"text":"那他沒有收入 那這一定是贈與嘛 不是嗎那這是不是某個方面 某個方式 他們要逃避贈與稅或者用逃避其他的方式的稅捐所以這個部分有沒有再細查呢"},{"start":10186.365,"end":10193.387,"text":"我想逐一回答委員剛剛的一個質詢那當然在我們112年8月1號推出所謂清安2.0的時候那正好在房地產市場往上走的時候那剛剛您也提到這個房價上漲的情況那我們也很快的發現這種情況以後就第一個我們就限制了所謂的一生只能貸一次也就是說不能就清安貸了以後把它賣掉賺差價然後再一次的試用所以只能一生只能貸一次"},{"start":10216.294,"end":10232.565,"text":"第二個我們要求他們在貸款的時候必須要提出自住的一個貸付這個切結數要讓他知道你只能做自住使用而不能夠拿去出租那另外對於您剛剛提到的有關就是說那個學生買他事實上沒有收入"},{"start":10232.985,"end":10245.908,"text":"那我們貸款的對象只要成年然後他沒有其他的房子那有的我們也知道可能是父母出幫他付了一些頭付款或者是說幫他後面支付那這個時候銀行會要求提出連貸保證的一個要求只有要求提出連貸保證要求提出連貸保證部長我認為這一點我必須花點時間再跟你談我就不再公開質詢跟你提"},{"start":10258.231,"end":10277.015,"text":"我就講你剛剛說的 你說這個要自助我認為你們要加強自助的查核 為什麼因為這100到115年2月就到今年的2月為止所查到的轉售戶高達2824件然後這裡面轉售戶裡面交易利得500萬以上的23件"},{"start":10286.141,"end":10311.479,"text":"交易利得100萬以上的1835件就是他轉售啊那這個所謂的轉售交易利得我覺得這個查核到的都還是低估我光是講500萬以上的就有這麼多件就有這麼多件那你覺得新清安貸款是不是應該要加強這個自住的查核"},{"start":10312.279,"end":10337.671,"text":"否則就失去意義啊我們拿全民的辛苦血汗錢拿來補貼本來是一番好意結果這他們是買來來轉售賺錢不是這樣嗎呃我想這個部分就是說清安市就說一聲帶一次你要珍惜這樣的一個呃政府的一個相關的一個呃美意那所以轉售付的話他因為房屋是他他就買所以但自主的查核是從來沒有鬆懈我們會通過資料的比對"},{"start":10341.713,"end":10359.647,"text":"要知道政府的美意 這些大家都高等教育的啦 那些都會說的啦就是審核最要緊啦所以自住的審核是不會放鬆的 我們會還是繼續的追查那時間暫停 你請回 我請金管會彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":10366.513,"end":10382.742,"text":"文主委您應該知道最近股市大好這是敗高科技之勢這是很好這是很好這可能是未來一波新的工業革命這是好事可是如果說拿房貸"},{"start":10384.096,"end":10408.477,"text":"拿信貸 車貸 甚至股票直接貸款這所謂的四貸同堂 五貸同堂那都投入股市那這個就要慎重了我們現在已經有41.7萬人41.7萬人是貸房入股市貸房入股市有41.7萬人那我就察覺到"},{"start":10409.858,"end":10436.158,"text":"你的很多看法跟中央銀行楊總裁是不同的楊總裁是很擔心說信用過度擴張這個市場啊股市槓桿的擴大那市場反轉的時候萬一反轉那要那會怎麼樣那你是說如果這個是合理增加風險可控那這個你認為說這可能都是"},{"start":10438.734,"end":10461.099,"text":"也貸款來的不一定全部錢都流到股市而且你說沒有擔保的信用放款你有22倍薪資這個限制可是你們又加了一點你們又加了一點說不限於月收22倍的你們又加了這一點你說有多元收入"},{"start":10462.352,"end":10490.003,"text":"那就可以另外一個估算可以拉高就對可以提高那我先就請問啊如果說融資股票去賺錢那這個算不算多元收入在你的定義說那就是多元收入那就是一直這樣循環喔融資去做股票之後賺了錢多元收入他就又可以增加信用額度又借更多"},{"start":10491.678,"end":10510.689,"text":"所以很可怕的事情發生了股票直接或者融資股票信貸房貸所以說世貸同堂所以楊總裁的擔憂似乎跟你截然不同那麼我們看得到這個"},{"start":10513.629,"end":10533.121,"text":"我們就講說針對這個貸款來做股票這個走勢確實是這樣我們就拿這個心理房屋他們研究的歷史數據裡面2023年的時候喔當時股票還在主體階段那每月增加的人數是994人但是2024年一路破2萬點以後一路"},{"start":10539.085,"end":10544.41,"text":"從每個月增加2341人2025年2114年每一個月喔今年的3、4月爆發性一個月增加2730人所以啊來到2026年4月底正式突破42萬人就是我剛剛講的42萬1000人"},{"start":10562.487,"end":10588.233,"text":"所以這一點我希望你能夠把楊總裁講的一些當然我不是說他講的就都一定百分之百都對但是中央銀行畢竟他們這70年來對我們國家金融的穩定他們很多看法其實是非常正確的那在你對他的看法有質疑有討論的時候我覺得還要再深思是的 是的好不好我跟文講一句話"},{"start":10588.993,"end":10609.89,"text":"我跟央行總裁有非常密切的溝通這部分我們會來關注我們其實看法原則是一樣後面好多還沒來得及講好多看法不一致的我們會來注意這件事你很多看法跟他不一致好不好謝謝王世堅委員我們結束王世堅委員的質詢接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":10626.054,"end":10639.651,"text":"主席在場委員先進列協政務機關事長官員會長公共夥伴媒體記者女士先生首先我們請財政部莊部長還有副稅屬的宋署長後半段呢要請台灣煙酒公司的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}