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趙主任"},{"start":1958.291,"end":1979.846,"text":"人事參謀次長是王志輝王次長情報參謀次長是謝日生謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長"},{"start":1986.345,"end":2002.739,"text":"陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部朱惠民參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉薛參謀長憲兵指揮部張存志張參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長"},{"start":2016.016,"end":2032.679,"text":"軍事情報局李永康李副局長電訊發展室吳永衍吳副主任國防大學李承忠李教育長國家中山科學研究院李士強李院長本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告"},{"start":2041.485,"end":2045.492,"text":"小子化衝擊一下國軍人力資源政策與未來因應規劃並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2059.127,"end":2088.326,"text":"主席,各位委員先進,今天應邀至外交機關委員會實施專案報告,陳鋒坤委員對於國軍人力現況的關切,在此表達誠摯的敬意與謝忱。少數化造成國家結構人口改變,影響社會勞動力投入就業市場人數,國軍已面臨輕壯人力來源緊縮及民間企業增才等挑戰,為穩定來源,本部今年陸續針對部隊生活管理、官兵福利待遇等提出改善方案以優化"},{"start":2089.387,"end":2102.894,"text":"服役環境穩固部隊戰力接續由本部資源規劃司司長藍靜婷女士就掃紙化衝擊下國際能力資源政策與未來因應規劃向各位委員提出報告進行各位委員指導與支持"},{"start":2110.168,"end":2136.213,"text":"主席 各位委員先進少子化衝擊下國軍人力資源政策與未來因應規劃一 前言隨著整體社會人口結構改變勞動人力逐年減少加上近年民間企業受經濟環境成長因素社會青年對於未來工作職場選擇多元國軍招募工作更加艱鉅因此如何透過完善的人力規劃強化人才招募與培育"},{"start":2136.693,"end":2151.404,"text":"及增加福利待遇等措施吸引社会青年投身军旅已成为国军建军备战的重要课题以下就可增应来人数概况国军人力资源政策今年执行成果与未来因应规划实施报告"},{"start":2152.725,"end":2178.203,"text":"2.可真易难人数概况近5年台湾人口结构变化台湾从109年起已经有人口负成长时代出生人数持续低于死亡人数国家发展委员会分析指出台湾整体人口年龄结构65岁以上的族群人数已占全台湾总人口数的20%迈入高龄社会"},{"start":2179.589,"end":2189.492,"text":"2.可徵藝男人數概況依內政部議政司列管常費議題為可徵藝男統計資料可徵藝男自110年起呈現逐年遞減趨勢112年可徵人數跌破10萬人116年研判更將降至7萬7千餘人112到116年可徵藝男人數的統計表請參閱"},{"start":2204.824,"end":2233.851,"text":"三 国军人力资源政策近年执行成果一 国军人力制度基于战争形态朝向科技化数位化及精准化发展武器装备越区精良国军兵役政策以志愿役与义务役双轨并行的原则招募与培训义其长 义愿强经验熟知志愿役人力维持高强度战力同时依宪法赋予之兵役义务征集义难服义务役"},{"start":2234.471,"end":2263.831,"text":"以满足部队人力需求统计至114年底全军的边线比为80%其中志愿役占了77.3%一年期义务役占了2.7%二 近年执行成果为稳定部队基层战力本部朝人心化管理措施及优化住用环境放宽入营征选条件与提高薪资待遇等面向努力说明如下人心化管理措施及优化住用环境"},{"start":2265.491,"end":2286.116,"text":"檢視現行部隊各項管理措施以人性化管理為出發點推動取消官兵休假回報制度開放官兵出國自由行調整志願役官兵返營時間與恢復常態留職規定等政策並推動新安專案與嶄新專案加速老舊營舍整建提升官兵居住品質"},{"start":2287.296,"end":2304.982,"text":"二、放宽入营征选条件,为充实部队基层战力,本部检讨入营服役条件,并同步放宽志愿士兵征选身高限制及非因品德因素提前退伍官兵志愿再入营等征选条件,以提高招募成效。"},{"start":2306.672,"end":2332.029,"text":"3.提高薪资待遇,鉴于近年官兵战备任务负荷加重,为改善志愿役人力薪资待遇,本部于114年调增志愿役勤务加给,战斗部队加给,战航管加给,电增加给及网络战加给等五项勤务加给,展现实质照顾官兵的决心。115年更获行政院核定将无人机部队纳入战斗部队加给发给对象。"},{"start":2333.967,"end":2349.359,"text":"3.上述各项政策实施后,114年志愿亿人力较113年增加约3000余人,114年流云率相较113年度提升了5.2%,不市府人数与113年度相较减少了1652人。"},{"start":2351.26,"end":2378.695,"text":"另外統計6月份與114年的同期支援役人力成長約5000餘人顯見各項政策推動及提升薪資待遇均有助於穩定青年從軍意願國軍整體人力提升已有顯著成效令自113年1月1日起EWE役期回復為一年役期實施入伍、駐地及基地等完整訓練後可適時補充常備部隊戰力"},{"start":2381.637,"end":2400.559,"text":"4.未来因应规划,本部现阶段依科技取代人力,火力取代传统兵力方向,强化招募流营,检讨调整薪资待遇,精进人才培育及引进科技建军转型等方式,稳固国军人力资源,重点摘数如下。1.科技取代人力"},{"start":2401.6,"end":2421.675,"text":"國軍建軍備戰系以人才為核心本部依兵力整建計畫及軍事戰略指導採購無人載具、智慧型系統等武器裝備積極建構不對稱戰力並導入新興科技及人工智慧等關鍵技術輔助決策以降低人力負擔打造科技化之戰鬥部隊"},{"start":2424.821,"end":2442.021,"text":"2.因应高科技作战人力需求,与民间学校合作,开放军校学生跨校选修网络攻防战,人因工程与人工智慧等新兴科技课程,结合民间学术能量发展军事科研,培养未来新一代的科技军官。"},{"start":2443.271,"end":2462.779,"text":"二、科技建军转型少子化是世界各国军面临之挑战国军可招募兵员逐年减少人力维持日益困难以科技取代人力为必然趋势因此部队形态必须由传统人力密集的建军模式转型为科技化及自动化之现代部队"},{"start":2463.519,"end":2492.048,"text":"使有限人力能发挥最大的战力价值并透过长期且稳定的国防资源投入导入成熟科技以适应敌情威胁提升防卫应变能力3.持续女性人力运用国军自80年起逐步增加女性禁用人力100年女性禁用比例约为8.2%迄今国军女性官兵服役人数占现原比例约为16.6%与美法两国概同"},{"start":2492.888,"end":2505.316,"text":"目前除了遣件及救难件受空间限制外三军所有职务均以开放女性官兵立念本部将持续推动女性友善职场环境以吸引更多女性专业人士投入国军"},{"start":2507.054,"end":2535.755,"text":"四、強化招募作為為提高宣傳廣度本部將持續辦理校園招生說明會規劃學生實地參訪軍事院校、部隊與國防知性之旅等活動強化青年學子從軍意願另利用網路及社群媒體捷運燈箱與車體廣告與全國辦理軍校招生博覽會結合政府機關、就業徵才博覽會、社攤宣導等方式加強目標族群的觸及率"},{"start":2537.141,"end":2561.849,"text":"5持续检讨薪资待遇本部一提情威胁防卫作战需求及勤务专业特性与任务繁重程度持续检讨修订各项勤务加级的支领对象种类及发放金额2为了优化整体人力的运用效益规划在战斗部队服役之义务役官兵按约支领战斗部队加级以增进服役意愿"},{"start":2563.021,"end":2587.352,"text":"五、节育,军人承担国家安全的重要任务,职业特性与其他行业不同,面对少子化的挑战,其能透过稳定的国防资源投入,新兴科技运用,强化招募,合理调整薪资待遇等作为,巩俱国军人力来源,以确保战力能有效发挥。以上报告,敬请各位委员先进支持与指教。谢谢。"},{"start":2590.949,"end":2606.517,"text":"好 謝謝現在開始詢答本會委員期假2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理現在請王逸川委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席我們請這個藍市長請藍市長"},{"start":2624.951,"end":2645.066,"text":"好謝謝你們辛苦了,這個招募志願役你們現在設定,你剛有提到目標,目標的族群你們現在設定的目標族群在哪裡?在哪裡?就是你們不是要招募志願役嗎?族群在哪裡?"},{"start":2647.174,"end":2665.267,"text":"我們雛群主要是兩個對象一個是在學的學校的學生青年就是高中值應屆畢業生或大學的畢業生另外一個就是社會青年這沒有這不叫目標啊這個是在茫茫人海中找啊"},{"start":2666.209,"end":2688.123,"text":"有沒有要找哪一種特質的人他可能出現在什麼地方不然你們把那個大學博覽會跟一堆的大學弄在一起看不到你們的特色啊所以你們招不贏人家有沒有想過說用什麼方法找到你們想要找到的人來當這個志願役的士兵"},{"start":2690.08,"end":2705.189,"text":"報告一下我舉個例子我們在高中時學校我們都有設置我們的那個招募的一個招募站那我會透過教官和老師針對我們軍種的需求還有學生的他本身的適性的發展我們來去"},{"start":2705.689,"end":2733.111,"text":"那個我都知道 那個就是如果你們剛好有這個退伍的軍官回到學校當校安人員 對不對然後呢 這個學長學弟啊就請他拜託幫忙招一下那在這個校安人員的辦公室外面就貼了一堆海報然後看有沒有人會進來問就這樣嘛這很被動啦這是相當被動 就是說這個為什麼大家不去當這個"},{"start":2735.09,"end":2758.097,"text":"職業的軍官軍人這個關鍵的事情我覺得你們要去了解你們有沒有分析過就是說現在大學畢業生他們的薪水跟來當阿兵哥職業的當職業的這個軍官或者是士兵就薪水上是不是他們最在乎的有沒有做過這種調查"},{"start":2763.712,"end":2789.069,"text":"這部分目前我們是沒有在做那你們都搞不清楚你們的對手嘛就是說你們在找大學生大學畢業以後能夠能夠自願來重新對不對那這些人他可能就跑去民間公司也可能每天在家待業中也可能在準備考高普考嘛對不對考這個國營事業嘛他們就是大家有不同的規劃有些想要繼續念研究所那你們是他們其中一個選擇"},{"start":2790.475,"end":2798.361,"text":"那跟你們一起在找這些人、在搶這些人的過程當中你們的對手開的條件你們清楚嗎?這部分我們還是需要,我們都有在研究但是沒有像委員說可能分得那麼細啊不是這樣,這樣怎麼招啦"},{"start":2814.724,"end":2827.333,"text":"你們現在不是要招大學畢業生或高中畢業生從軍嘛對不對自願役嘛那你總要搞清楚他們為什麼不來嗎還有一些人為什麼來嗎請你們去做一些了解"},{"start":2830.575,"end":2850.132,"text":"報告委員 以我的了解就是像以我們志願役士兵為例我們就是招募高中畢業生那他進來了以後呢 目前在我們志願役二兵的話他的薪水大概是四萬二左右那他如果能夠到戰鬥部隊服務的話他當然就可以在支領第一或第二類型的戰鬥部隊加級"},{"start":2851.773,"end":2875.191,"text":"所以他的薪水會更高那七月份以後 軍公教一起調薪那個就是專業家級的部分 調整為兩萬元所以就是等於高中畢業生 他進來當最低階的志願二兵他的薪水有四萬四那我們今年其實 我們近年其實的招募一直都有達到我們的招募目標我知道 我知道 就講了這些條件 他為什麼還是不來啦"},{"start":2877.033,"end":2883.774,"text":"可是以我們的統計資料近年來我們的招募社的目標數我們的確都有達到那就是社的目標太低啊"},{"start":2886.857,"end":2912.231,"text":"應該是有很多人想要來啊如果條件很好我的意思是說如果條件很好你們應該是很多人想要來啊部長我想幾個部分第一個剛剛委員提到的待遇當然是其中重要的之一那就待遇的部分我想我們在報告裡面也提到了我們現在大家都理解就是我們的這個"},{"start":2914.454,"end":2932.594,"text":"主戰部隊它的邊線比較低所以因此我們會在這個主戰部隊裡面要來調高它的加級那這個在去年我們調高了這個戰鬥加級那大幅的調高之後我想這個可以看到報告裡面顯示這個"},{"start":2934.716,"end":2948.941,"text":"招募的這個成效就不錯那因此我們會現在已經在進一步跟任總在那邊進行演繹也就是說有關於如何擴大這個戰鬥部隊加入一些勤領的對象然後還有戰鬥部隊的這個不同的類別"},{"start":2951.062,"end":2974.427,"text":"那這些我們會根據他們的任務繁重程度還有他們的專業程度來做那現在必須跟委員報告確實有一部分會比較困難譬如說他具有高度專業的譬如說我們必須講說資通電軍或者是說我們一些我們還是要做一些軟體開發的一些工作那這個部分確實在跟社會上在比較"},{"start":2975.947,"end":2995.922,"text":"這個心智的部分我們也許並沒有那麼的容易因此我們在這個部分要如何跟這些學生我們能夠鎖定一些目標的對象然後我們讓這些對象能夠理解國軍在各方面不只待遇,在各項的福利措施上面也不錯"},{"start":2997.503,"end":3014.29,"text":"我們甚至對這些高站我們的經管的歷練我們也可以做一些檢討那我們盡量來吸取我們認為這個需要的一些比較跟外界高度競爭的這樣子的一個專業人才這些我們都要努力"},{"start":3017.734,"end":3034.139,"text":"另外當然必須要再講一點,就是說我們因為剛剛有報告提到我們的可真亦然的人數也是在下降,那可真亦然人數下降我們還是會定一個目標值,也就是說我們按照我們可真亦然的全部的這些人數"},{"start":3034.979,"end":3061.976,"text":"我們還是會定一個目標值,這個目標值是不太會變的但是因為隨著這個可證依然人數,現在因為出生率下降嘛那可證依然比例不變,那絕對值的人數會稍微減少但不管他怎麼減少,我們還是會希望能夠達到這個目標這是我們現在要做到的好,謝謝就是繼續加油啦,不然我看你們條件越開越好然後呢這個"},{"start":3063.154,"end":3084.026,"text":"也希望更多人來參與,我再請教另外一個問題,有沒有一種可能就是說他去當志願役,就是大學畢業,然後他還當志願役這個過程當中,他順便就練完研究所了就是說他其實是在當兵,當志願役,這是他大學畢業,然後他就在部隊裡頭"},{"start":3085.526,"end":3108.932,"text":"他就在部隊裡頭,比如說每天的晚上,或者是什麼六日之類就是跟外面的大學合作,那就研究所的課那對這大學畢業生來說反正他大學畢業去讀一般的研究所,跟我來從軍我還領一個月領四五萬那其實我在部隊裡頭,我還在練研究所"},{"start":3110.087,"end":3135.88,"text":"就是有一些性質的這些單位,譬如說剛剛講的這個資通電軍,他也在裡面練研究所,他也在領薪水,這個會不會對他們更有吸引力?對,委員講得很好,這兩個部分,一個是如何增加他的專業,如何讓提供他在不影響戰備任務的情況之下,能夠繼續提高他的學養。"},{"start":3136.58,"end":3159.82,"text":"那這個部分的這個研究所關於相關的這些補助,我想我們都有這個詳細的可以認識報告委員,跟你報一下,我們在不影響戰備任務下,我們可以鼓勵官兵參與空域進修那可以甚至透過營區設置教學點,跟學校教練合作,讓官兵利用晚上時間可以修讀學士或是碩士都可以"},{"start":3160.26,"end":3181.762,"text":"這個現在有在做嗎?有有有,現在就是說各部隊會跟他附近的這些大學會進行交流那在利用這個夜間,或者在不影響戰略任務的情況之下他可以甚至可以派老師到這個營區裡面來教課然後可以讓他取得這樣的一個碩士資格,我是看到非常多的人"},{"start":3182.282,"end":3197.73,"text":"在從事這方面那這個現在執行狀況怎麼樣?執行狀況我看很多人都有我到每個營區去都有看到很多人都不斷的在在接受這個所以有很多就因為這樣而可以轉這個"},{"start":3201.171,"end":3225.401,"text":"轉士官轉軍官這樣子他們只要有努力就可以拿到這些學位的話因此可以轉那另外就是有一些高專的能力我們也會像中電軍有一些課程我們就會安排他到也都是由我們提供相關的經費來安排他去再去繼續來取得這些專業的這一些能力跟證照這樣好這個很好啦就是說他"},{"start":3226.201,"end":3234.926,"text":"他大學畢業嘛,那他出去工作其實也不好找那他來從軍薪水比較高,那其實在裡面也練完研究所"},{"start":3236.094,"end":3262.562,"text":"他會跟他的同採同期的同學大學畢業同學比嗎我在這邊一個月可能你四五萬我還軍中還讓我練研究所一樣兩年兩年半三年我也拿到碩士學位那我的同學他可能直接去練研究所他也不太漂亮啊或是他去工作他也沒有練研究所啊啊我在軍中我就在這個區域裡頭在這間教室我在做當兵的事情我也在練研究所這個聽起來我個人認為這個聽起來有吸引力"},{"start":3265.275,"end":3284.77,"text":"所以這部分可能比較多元一點,讓這些來重建,包括家長家長有時候也會影響,說你找不到錢,去做阿兵哥,一個月四、五萬也不錯,真的老闆救手,不然你老闆老闆都丟臉這些家長也許就會鼓勵他"},{"start":3285.51,"end":3307.121,"text":"去當這個志願力是是 這委員說得很好我們確實 這個是我們的一個很重要的一個政策讓他跟在地的這些鄰近的這些大學或者怎麼樣來進行合作然後取得說是這個說真的我看到很多營區的好 那這個部分是不是請這個相關的單位就目前執行的這些狀況在簡單的幾頁的這個圖表給我參考好不好好 謝謝 謝委員"},{"start":3316.216,"end":3320.14,"text":"接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長部長早"},{"start":3339.209,"end":3366.33,"text":"部長我們今天就國軍人力資源的現況來進行相關的討論如同在報告的前段有所提到我們國家目前面臨少子女化的挑戰確實是非常的嚴峻在人口結構的改變幾乎讓各行各業的業者都缺工營但以我們國軍的職業特性來說更是需要有穩定充足的人力"},{"start":3366.85,"end":3375.668,"text":"尤其我們重獲新式武器裝備的同時我們部隊是否能夠發揮完整的一個戰力也是大家所關心的一個議題"},{"start":3376.618,"end":3402.774,"text":"那在這次國防部報告當中有提到我們全軍這個邊線比的部分現在才80%左右那其中部分是來自於EUE的這個補充但我們也清楚在許多的這個戰鬥部隊或是條件相對艱困的這些單位志願役的人力依然不足那在這個勤務更加繁重的趨勢之下基層官兵的這個負擔也相對的沉重"},{"start":3403.314,"end":3420.361,"text":"那我想剛剛部長您也大概有提到我們有一些招募的方式特別在人口結構改變還有經濟發展的這種趨勢之下我們國軍要招募的工作也應該要即使有相應的一個調整"},{"start":3421.081,"end":3448.212,"text":"譬如過去仰賴各地實體的招募中心或是服務站可能在宣傳和吸引力不太足夠的情況之下所招募的人員在社群平台上也沒有看到很大的成效那我們要積極展現我們國軍不同的面向也要獲得比較好的觸及率這部分我想請教部長就是"},{"start":3449.554,"end":3462.051,"text":"我們如何來精進這個現行的招募政策和相關的軟硬體設施並且強化從軍的這個意願提升國軍招募我們歷世代青年的一個成效"},{"start":3464.248,"end":3487.448,"text":"我想我們現在招募就是我們還是會定一個目標,剛剛已經講了,就按照我們可徵那個人數,我們還是定一個目標那就這個目標大概有幾個方向,第一個當然就是我們會將我們的官校的這個名額,那我看到我們今年官校的這個入企的名額都超過100%"},{"start":3489.329,"end":3508.999,"text":"看起來是成效還不錯,這第一個,第二個當然就是說我們依照他的這個社會青年也好,或者是他現在一無一在服役的期間,他如果覺得他能夠對我們能夠提供他一定的吸引力,認為他可以適合這個部隊的這個"},{"start":3514.142,"end":3523.795,"text":"任務,那我們就會來進行招募,那另外當然不諱言的會是說我們當時就是說要現在"},{"start":3526.482,"end":3550.248,"text":"可是依然人數下降之後,志願役的人數確實不容易招募所以當時這個就是將一年期的151,就是說變成從四個月到一年期那一年期的話,它有個好處就是它可以從這個新訓到這個駐地到基地那甚至到聯合作戰的這個能力的驗證,都可以獲得比較一個完整的"},{"start":3551.028,"end":3570.556,"text":"一個訓練所以這個一物一役我們也準備會在後續特別在明年過去像我也是預官我們大學畢業會去考預官我們可能也會在明年會來重啟因為現在主要有一個狀況就是說我們基層的"},{"start":3572.805,"end":3601.48,"text":"位級的軍官跟士官可能會比較缺所以他們既然有受到充足的訓練的情況之下我想我們可以來開放預備軍官跟預備士官的一個考試我想加入更多的誘因應該可以吸引更多的年輕學子願意投入我們軍中的生活陳儒剛剛 部長您剛剛那個王委員在詢問的部分"},{"start":3601.9,"end":3626,"text":"我覺得加入這個學生在這個服役的過程裡面也能夠取得他們相對應的這個學歷我覺得這個對他們來講會是一個很大的這是說真的這是我到每一個大概每一個旅吧旅籍的單位大概都有辦到都有辦到跟所在的這些大學"},{"start":3626.801,"end":3644.157,"text":"教學合作,然後他們的教授甚至是進來到營區裡面進行上課,然後讓他們一邊可以進行他們的戰備任務,一方面又可以同時取得相關的這些學歷因為他們在這個過程裡面,他們會認為他們沒有浪費時間"},{"start":3646.219,"end":3667.331,"text":"而且還可以取得一個他們想要的一個學歷這是我們在力推的一個政策之一我覺得這個可以用力的去推啦看能不能讓更多的這些年輕人他在這個服役的過程裡面一邊來幫忙照顧我們國家的國家安全那也可以在這個裡面繼續的充實自己"},{"start":3667.919,"end":3694.285,"text":"讓他們取得這個學歷我覺得這很不錯另外就是想我們國軍在招募的這個工作上應該會考量到我們各種兵員不同的可能性其中在我們報告裡面有提到為了充實部隊基層的戰力那有檢討入營服務的條件尤其我們每年有數千名不適服的官兵離開部隊那有些可能是因為他家庭的因素或是"},{"start":3694.885,"end":3708.271,"text":"個人的原因辦理退伍如果他們有意願要回來服役我們公安部在去年3月也對此放寬不釋服官兵再入營的政策也有修訂相關的規定"},{"start":3710.672,"end":3737.866,"text":"那某方面來說也有積極在勞動市場上搶人的這種現象那在去年11月的時候我也曾經質詢過招募退伍的這個官兵再入營的成效當時統計是379位那我想再進一步追蹤我們目前招募這個官兵再入營的成效是如何有沒有比較好那招募入營之後是否都會成為我們部隊穩定的一個力量那對此國安部有什麼樣的一個檢討"},{"start":3738.726,"end":3754.78,"text":"所以跟委員報告我想第一個我們這個不釋乎有時候聽到不釋乎好像把它放寬我們要說明一下我們這些不釋乎就是剛剛講的很多都是家庭因素等等不是應該品的因素如果品的因素是不能夠再錄影的"},{"start":3754.94,"end":3766.331,"text":"那我們經過現在這樣子的一個放寬之後他先回到社會然後覺得可能部隊願意再回到部隊的話我們114年的整體再錄影的是538叫113年的再錄影的386增加了156那115年到今天就是到7月1號吧7月1號為止是"},{"start":3779.063,"end":3804.005,"text":"已經有這個344今年到7月1號所以有上升的對 去年538那前年382那今年是到7月1號等於上半年是來到344那我們希望今年能夠在穩定的成長所以成效是比往年還好那這部分也請我們國防部繼續努力"},{"start":3804.966,"end":3825.441,"text":"那另外在這個UV的這個部分根據我們內政部的預判我們在明年度可能增級的這個藝男人數已經不到8萬人了那長期來看人力勢必下滑不過因為94年次以後的這個藝男從明年開始會進入大學畢業潮那會有"},{"start":3826.381,"end":3851.032,"text":"這個更多一年期的EUE到部隊來服務那116年度可能會增及到三萬五千人預估啦那這部分我想了解是我們在目前基層軍士官人力負擔較大的情況之下除了由這個志願役的軍官及士官結訓後投入我們部隊或是透過這個EUE的這個士官來接受我們士官訓練以後"},{"start":3852.393,"end":3872.37,"text":"進任這個下市的管道那面對接下來一年期的這個EUE增加這些人力是否能夠足夠來負擔我們領導新進士兵的這個工作那我們國防部打算如何來補充基層軍事官的這個人力來舒緩我們基層幹部缺員的這個壓力"},{"start":3873.411,"end":3890.684,"text":"是,跟委員報告,因為我們現在就是說本來就有一個賓轉4萬班的一個管道那麼一年期的這個EWE它比較有時間就是透過這個賓轉4要大概8"},{"start":3896.465,"end":3923.036,"text":"八到十週的這樣子的一個士官的一個班隊那他就可以去充任士官那另外我剛剛也跟委員報告就是說我們116年就這個大專程度的EWE的要來召考這個預備軍官跟預備士官那因為他們都有一個比較一年級的一個完整的訓練所以我想可以充實我們的基層的軍官跟士官跟委員報告其實我們現在就是說"},{"start":3925.373,"end":3951.074,"text":"我們的過去四個月的軍事宣議當然我們列管很多士兵但是事實上四個月是不可能成為士官跟基層的軍官所以我們會將這個人一年級的應該就一年級就可以了那一年級的話那我們現在明年這些大專畢業的人那我們讓他可以考預備軍官或者是預備士官"},{"start":3951.753,"end":3971.465,"text":"讓我們可以充實我們的基層的幹部那這些北洋他們具有這個領導能力那之後他們退下來之後我們還是會持續來依照他們的專長來進行教召那因為他們的專長就具有比較多的多元性那有更多的適合我們部隊的一個需求這樣"},{"start":3972.245,"end":3999.094,"text":"好 謝謝部長我想我們這個少子女化所衍生出的相關問題我們國防部也都注意到了後續我們不管是對於招募或是留營訓練以及我們相關的軍事官待遇提升的相關措施還有新興科技取代我們傳統火力的運用也很重要我們讓基層人力在配置上能夠更加合理建構更健康的一個"},{"start":3999.734,"end":4015.208,"text":"服役的環境我想這是我們國防部要繼續努力期待我們部長跟我們所有的軍官一起來帶領我們要來持續推動這個我們人性化的管理措施也要優化我們相關的住宿空間"},{"start":4016.409,"end":4036.137,"text":"還有各項的這些,剛剛您有提到像這些福利政策,包括他可以在軍中可以來取得這個進修,比如說高中再取得大學,大學可以再取得碩士等等這些,然後我們也會持續來檢討相關的這些薪資待遇這是我們一直要持續努力的好,謝謝部長謝謝我們接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":4051.276,"end":4053.239,"text":"謝謝主席 要請部長請郭部長是 各位"},{"start":4061.671,"end":4088.272,"text":"部長好 部長少此話呢造成了我們國軍人力的吃緊這也反映到這個基層這個官兵呢在行政業務上面的負擔呢是也越來越重喔那近期呢我們有看到一些軍旅社群上面有志願意在反映就是說他們的業務做不完午休跟晚上呢基本上都是要加班那也有人反映就是說一個人是捐付"},{"start":4089.053,"end":4103.428,"text":"兩三人份的這個工作每天起床一大早就是在辦公室然後呢基本上都是十點左右下班所以工作壓力呢大到說想報不釋服甚至想要提早這個退伍我不知道國防部有沒有掌握這相關的這個情況"},{"start":4106.515,"end":4110.718,"text":"呃委員好我是總督發展室總督發展針對委員這個問題啊我們在整個檢法思維的這個指導指導之下我們在111年起的時候已經有"},{"start":4120.805,"end":4145.511,"text":"制定了一個這個反應的平台這個平台呢也就是我們針對業務的一個精進還有一些反應的一個這個平台那這個平台呢我們是把它架設在軍網上面那這個軍網呢所有你只要是軍網的一個承辦人你對於業務有一些要需要精進的都可以在這個網路上面來做一個提示然後我們會收案之後會針對"},{"start":4147.532,"end":4175.784,"text":"各業管的這些單位來做研析那如果說是可行的我們會把它形成政策之後去做具體的一個推動並且我們會去獎勵這個提案人然後再做後續的一個業務的精進那每年我們都會去做一個滾動式的一個修正跟檢討那譬如說我們近期要推動的可能未來這個非經營單位要去做一些警衛勤務的這些的一個見面"},{"start":4176.244,"end":4195.124,"text":"或是說公文系統一個精進的提升都可以透過我們這個平台來做一個反應 以上OK 謝謝總督導長 像之前部長剛上任的時候就提出了檢法的這個思維喔那包含我們現在有取消官兵休假每日回報啦還有取消這個形式主義過渡 而且不符合這個戰訓本務的訓練的這個項目"},{"start":4198.507,"end":4227.583,"text":"可是我們現在發現就是說就算部長剛剛上任有提出這個檢法思維也有一些作為那總督察長也說我們也有一個申訴平台可是我們看到的這個在一些軍旅社群反映的其實都是今年或是去年我們當然不曉得說他也沒有同時在這個我們所謂的申訴平台上去做這方面的申訴那像這種狀況是不是確確實實是存在的呢"},{"start":4230.924,"end":4256.656,"text":"我想我們提出這個檢法的這個思維這個是一個等於是一個原則性的政策那具體的做法上面我想確實還有很多我們可以來檢討精進的一個空間那現在就是說我們要如何的去這個找到這一個我們可以進一步來精簡"},{"start":4258.46,"end":4286.301,"text":"這個所謂重複然後過多的重複的一些作為過多的形式主義或者是不符合戰訓本務的這些事項那我想我會持續的來進行檢討那剛剛總統長講的這個平台我想這些平台那是其中一個方法那我們應該可以來檢討我們再用各種的方法才去了解我想這個部分我"},{"start":4289.276,"end":4317.948,"text":"我這邊會來做一些管控的一些相關的作為,來持續督導我們相關的這些聯參以及我們的相關的單位來去進行了解我們會來進行做一些管考的一些作為然後讓每一件事情的做法,當然要先經過討論,然後再來逐步搬行我們會朝這方面來努力"},{"start":4318.57,"end":4341.9,"text":"所以我是在想說既然有人投書或是類似這種投訴的話我是在想說這部分我們不得不重視那我就覺得說像這個基層業務減量的部分其實我們應該還有很大的這個改善的這個空間那當然少子化造成國軍人力吃緊那我們也不能讓他惡性循環所以像一個人擔負兩三"},{"start":4343.32,"end":4355.068,"text":"個人份的這個工作到底是怎麼一回事我想國防部應該這邊要去徹底去了解那再來做一些減量精進的一些措施好那再來還有就是說其實我今天有看這個國防部的這個報告你們裡面有提到就是說像未來我們對少子化的這個因應規劃會朝向這個科技取代人力或者是科技建軍的這個轉型的模式作為這個因應的這個措施"},{"start":4371.178,"end":4396.424,"text":"像之前國防安全研究院有提出就是說無人化系統人工智慧跟自動化武器是未來戰場上關鍵的這個戰力那當然我有看到說像我們為了因應高科技作戰人力需求所以我們會跟一些民間的學校合作甚至會有一些科技的這個課程那當然這是一個非常好的一個方式對未來呢培養新的這個科技軍官其實這是一個很好的一個方式"},{"start":4397.505,"end":4418.544,"text":"那當然剛剛有委員有很多前面兩位的委員有特別提到就是說在服役期間他可能有這些課程的精進那我們也希望就是說他在服役期間累積的這些專業經歷那退伍之後是不是可以轉嫌到一些國防產業或是工部門的一些職系那至少說"},{"start":4419.765,"end":4442.713,"text":"當他們在退伍之後呢還有一個生涯的這個延續跟這個規劃我不曉得說未來我們國防部對這個人力的這個需求有沒有建一個所謂的人力資料庫那對於這些我們在服役期間栽培的一些人才呢在他退伍之後我們有沒有一些職業銜接的一些規劃請問部長"},{"start":4445.756,"end":4457.835,"text":"雖然您最後是問到人才的資料庫部分,那前面講的那個部分用這個科技取代能力的這個部分,事實上我們也很努力,包括就是說我們要用"},{"start":4458.308,"end":4483.319,"text":"一些引用一些無人的系統來協助進行相關的一些警戒的任務來減輕人員的負荷那智慧監偵的系統也要引進,然後我們也要在努力自動化的後勤然後當然在智慧的指管跟行政的資訊化這個都要我們要努力那另外您提到在軍中的他的人才,他要放到民間然後去輔導"},{"start":4484.319,"end":4499.608,"text":"這個部分之前跟輔導會已經有進行過一個協商就我所知輔導會已經建立了一個資料庫這個資料庫也就是說我們國軍過去可能在相關的這些兵籍資料裡面寫的這些專長"},{"start":4500.668,"end":4525.687,"text":"如何可以銜接到民間的專長這個部分我們跟退會已經在合作退會已經有相關的一些建制另外一個面向是涉及到就是說我們全民防衛動員的部分我們有一些需要專業的一些人來這個又涉及到就是說"},{"start":4526.223,"end":4541.364,"text":"他可能在軍中沒有,軍中可能是這樣子的一個專長,比如說像我,我是運輸牌排長退伍,那可能他在病歷資料裡面是運輸牌,那我下去之後才考上律師,那我可能有另外一種專長"},{"start":4542.438,"end":4567.301,"text":"那對這樣的專長的掌握,我們就要了解了解之後,在我們權動署的資料庫裡面也要來進行這樣子的一些在軍中銜接到民間,民間在獲得專長的部分我們也要建立這樣的一個資料庫來適應我們的這些需求,特別是日後一年期的EWE"},{"start":4568.601,"end":4577.209,"text":"日漸增多的情況之下他在軍中的服役所取得的能力跟後來他在退伍之後在民間取得的這個能力"},{"start":4577.782,"end":4598.457,"text":"我們要設法能夠予以掌握我是覺得現在的作戰方式跟過往是不太一樣尤其是我們少子化我們對於人力的運用跟需求其實應該要有一個長時間的規劃甚至是做栽培像建軍科技跟自動化"},{"start":4599.818,"end":4616.906,"text":"對於全世界來講這是一個未來的這個趨勢啦所以我是希望說就像你們剛才在報告裡面有提到就是讓有限的這個人力發揮到最大的這個戰力我想這是台灣的未來是要所要努力的這個方向OK好以上謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":4637.85,"end":4642.074,"text":"好 主席 有請顧部長請顧部長也請蓮兒次長蓮兒次長部長早安陳委員早"},{"start":4651.699,"end":4666.719,"text":"在進入今天這個主題之前因為我們政府有一位長官在他的社群媒體提到了這個就是這兩天大家都在討論的一個很熱門的議題就是中共潛射"},{"start":4668.241,"end":4693.271,"text":"巨浪导弹至于是巨浪二巨浪三路径我想连二都有掌握分析那这边提醒注意的就是我们跟友好国家的情资这些汇集往往并不在于及时因为它不是立即的威胁但是对于后面不管是工情或是其他情资交换以后收敛出来的结果我们可能要回溯"},{"start":4694.571,"end":4719.06,"text":"對過去歷次試射做一個共同圖像這個部分我想請教靈兒次長您在這邊是不是簡單的敘述一下對於這種過去歷年來做的同樣的軌跡但是不同的目的落點那相同不同的時間我們要做一個通盤的分析作為以後對這個威脅的預判次長您做一下回覆"},{"start":4719.66,"end":4742.748,"text":"是謝謝委員的提問剛剛委員的提問我把它切成兩個部分來跟委員報告第一個是我們根據過去長時間我們自己所累整的各種態樣那這個態樣是一個資料庫那從這個資料庫裡面我們再去跟我們剛剛您所提到的各個可能的友好國家去針對"},{"start":4744.088,"end":4759.007,"text":"我們觀察到這些特殊的真紅的時候我們來交換彼此之間的意見那把這個彙整完了以後我們再透過一個共同圖像的這個邏輯把整理出來的東西再來跟部裡面的長官做報告"},{"start":4760.461,"end":4788.666,"text":"是因为这个工情资料非常多但是未必准确也可能是对方释放出来一个误导的方向但是因为我们也有人在这个社群媒体啊有时候会暴露一些那希望做对应比较那最主要就是这张图啊是个示范里面已经套您可以看出来已经套叠了有许多的图那么也用工情的资料涵盖它的范围"},{"start":4789.646,"end":4801.523,"text":"那再去比对媒体公布的资料但是呢轨迹未必相同落点未必相同我想这是一个工具方法论提供联合在参考过去你们已经累积了很多的这个"},{"start":4802.986,"end":4819.736,"text":"基本數據那也有計算的方式那下一張圖就是如果中共的導彈它的涵蓋範圍對於鄰近友好國家的基地從關島到夏威夷這個彈從哪裡打我想這是一個"},{"start":4820.817,"end":4844.858,"text":"基本的图构那这个具体方向我们都可以提供作参考那我希望这个事情过后以后为了能够安定国内的民心表示我们对整个的状况都有具体的掌握那这是一个我们要表达肯定要大家共同努力的连而我就请教您到这边那下面一个议题啊就是回到了今天谈到的主题啊"},{"start":4845.518,"end":4864.11,"text":"那麼因為前面幾個委員都也提出一個建設性的建言不管是人力需求啦如何從不同的管道不同的社會這個結構上去找人進來那我這邊跟部長要做一點建言就是在人才培養因為人才不足"},{"start":4865.037,"end":4891.916,"text":"所以我们现在不是讲的体力的要承担多少体力的负荷而是说你的脑力应该你的专业那这个地方是不是请联谊次长还有国防大学的这个教育长我请教第一个就是说我们现在陆海空军三军官校加上这个管理学院政大学院子参学院他们的休克的学分现在是多少学分"},{"start":4893.218,"end":4915.492,"text":"我們是按照教育部的標準是128個學分128當年也是這樣但是我建議要把學分拉高了因為只有學分需求拉高你可以提到146啊以前我們曾經有過學校到150為什麼呢這個學分提高啊有兩個第一個你的這個教育投資的經費要相對比例的增加"},{"start":4916.232,"end":4932.957,"text":"第二個就是你要修現在新進的課程因為剛才部長也提到了我們有很多要借重外面的老師專業因為AI的導入是一個複合也是一個挑戰也是一個助力現在大家都在用AI"},{"start":4934.266,"end":4961.558,"text":"也要付錢用AI但是AI提供的答案未必是完整的正確因此我建議在我們的大學課程中間要把這個變成必修課因為這是躲不掉的而不是選修課那尤其是大家都以為AI是工程其實AI的邏輯在這個問裡面的邏輯架構它很多是哲學的思想所以它不是純工程的問題甚至涉及到很多法律的問題"},{"start":4962.478,"end":4987.771,"text":"因為科技的進步我們的法規跟不上就像現在我們講的自主式的無人載具當是小型的這個個人操縱的那這叫Remote Control你如果是中大型把AI的晶片導入可以執行這種致命重大的任務的時候這個指揮官在這個整個管制的過程的迴路裡面"},{"start":4992.835,"end":5015.632,"text":"這些通通要戰備規定 接戰規定的法律過程來要求這個同樣下一個階段就提到了我們國防大學的子參教育這已經進到中高階了也同樣要把這些先進的技術課程要導入國防大學在這個部分有沒有把它納入教學的課程"},{"start":5018.006,"end":5041.885,"text":"國防大學這邊說明有關於軍醫世道教育導入AI的課程我們現在都有在做尤其是我們課程設計委員會這邊我們校長都有召集各院院長來針對這方面做研討也把新興的相關的議題也都把它納進課程裡面做一個修訂跟修調所有的學分數也都有在增加以上說明"},{"start":5043.581,"end":5065.579,"text":"我們大家都知道人力補食是一種壓力人口現在是負成長國防部也有完整的規劃各位看到我這張圖下面只是做一個提醒跟建議科技無法取代基礎的軍事素養科技跟傳統是要並重可是現在因為教學課程的更新"},{"start":5066.724,"end":5075.763,"text":"如果我们没有导入比较外面民间的先进科技的老师而用君子老师在AI上我们人数是非常有限的"},{"start":5076.618,"end":5104.464,"text":"第二个培训是装备的操作手但是并不是一般的Labor force但他也不是战术的指挥官所以我们一个就是说你的准则教范在操作系统的准则一个是作战的教范一个是操作手的准则这两个将来要同步进进那么AI功能是有限制的那我们将来这个云端如果是在国内有些还是要花钱的"},{"start":5104.944,"end":5124.805,"text":"所以整體的運用上面在學校的教學經費我提出一個建議就是經費要做增加那麼培養跨領域的保養人才我是不是請部長在這一點做一點回應是那個光大學有關那個他們現在是有一些軍文子的比例"},{"start":5125.565,"end":5140.254,"text":"我們現在正在研議,將菌蚊子的比例反例把它打消掉。所以我們已經在檢討當中,它應該要修相關的這些規程。"},{"start":5143.236,"end":5172.018,"text":"這個部分已經在進行當中所以我們會會讓這些您提到的這些尤其是相關的這些新興的這些科技的在教學上面的必要我們會適時的來引進這些那過去可能文子的這個老師他他要怎麼樣子來來聘這件事情我覺得我們要"},{"start":5172.939,"end":5193.871,"text":"當然基於學校自主的觀點,那我們設定一些他們可以就他們所要的課程那這些系主任可以去根據他的需求來訂立相關的這些標準那我們希望能夠吸引更多的文職人才進入我們的基礎教育裡面"},{"start":5195.673,"end":5209.53,"text":"最後提一個建議就是有關先移軍人的調薪這個部分已經通過了因為退伍軍人的部分退輔會是執行單位是不是部長也可以考慮做一個退伍軍人待遇的調整的檢討"},{"start":5215.337,"end":5230.328,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是退休的軍公教育條新還是由行政院那邊跟相關的就是相關的部會協商後都是由行政院來決定是那我是不是可以做一個建言提供參考好謝謝部長好謝謝我們接下來請黃建斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":5248.186,"end":5249.247,"text":"最近的十四題近期教召改為十四天"},{"start":5270.697,"end":5296.281,"text":"那這幾天新聞報導媒體有一位單親的爸爸接獲到教召他沒有辦法去拖姻那百姓這件事情是給單位竟然得到單位回應說你自己想辦法的這個回覆部長你知道這件事情嗎我想我們現在有看到一些個案那所以相關的這些個案他"},{"start":5297.213,"end":5317.35,"text":"如果有因為我們那個兵役法他有一個就那個43條有關那個叫招的部分他有一個其他因特殊事由而發對啦 部長那個我們叫招法43條第二項第三條的規定嘛就是有無執行血清是我們申請免招或緩招的這個基礎嘛對吧"},{"start":5319.076,"end":5335.333,"text":"那因為現在的社會其實情況跟以前不太一樣有些人可能他他有直系血清可是他可能不住在同一個縣市啊像我在台北我媽媽在台東那這樣的狀況我怎麼樣請直系血清來照顧我的小孩那第二個還有可能就是可能即便我住在附近"},{"start":5336.474,"end":5357.304,"text":"不一定長輩要幫忙照顧小孩這個現在社會跟以前的風格都不一樣所以不曉得我這邊在提醒就是說其實我們部隊在講三心三心就是要讓部隊安全三安啦就是部隊安全 軍人安家 還有軍眷安心這個口號我們常常在跟部隊的弟兄來講我想這個不僅僅是在照顧我們現在的官兵"},{"start":5357.924,"end":5379.504,"text":"我想這個也應該在後備軍人上應該也要同樣的來對待啦不應該這樣子因為其實今天如果今天我收到這樣的叫召令我也想要來到部隊裡面來從事叫召可是我是單親家庭我沒有辦法的解決的問題是這樣種種類似的情況還是希望部隊能夠更同理心來處理這件事情保證這些要我們來注意"},{"start":5380.366,"end":5387.665,"text":"我們現在就是說剛剛講的那個43條的第8款那後面因為我們有一個叫做後備救援機補充免除本次叫到"},{"start":5388.967,"end":5413.853,"text":"請勿的檢驗召集認定標準,那就是屬於這個特殊室友的這個部分那這個特殊室友的部分我們會來檢討,那個案的部分甚至有到說其他金光部後備指揮部跟所屬地區指揮部來認定他有無法接受召集的特殊情形,那我們會來我們會一方面檢視這個根據這個母法所授權的這個這個認定標準之外呢,那我們就個案的這個狀況,我們"},{"start":5415.813,"end":5436.291,"text":"也會來做一些根據一些個案的類型來做一些檢討謝謝部長謝謝部長回應我部長這邊回應我好 部長那接下來我想要回到我們今天的主題就是討論少子化衝擊下的這個國軍人力的問題那根據研究2031年40的這個避難人數將比現在再減少2萬多人"},{"start":5440.114,"end":5463.804,"text":"那另外一方面國軍的邊線比長期的邊低平均大概80%左右甚至有些部隊不到60%我想這代表不是武器不夠而是沒有人操作沒有人維修也沒有人來接班所以今天我最想要了解到說國防部到底有哪些具體的做法而不是只有說科技建軍智慧建軍界的口號因為更具體的方式來跟我們來"},{"start":5464.764,"end":5491.2,"text":"跟國務委員來說明一下現在的要解決這些少子化的問題喔那第一個問題要請問部長就是說我們現在中、高階的這個軍事觀的離退增加一個人多職行政工作暴增超遠平凡這些問題國防部有沒有完整的來統計以上這些問題 部長有沒有有關那個招募那個的部分來增加這個國軍的人力的這個部分"},{"start":5493.089,"end":5513.04,"text":"志願役的部分當然我們一方面有一個三星官校跟廣東大學的理工管理政戰學院還有ROTC等等,這些我們當然會持續來做那今年的招募的狀況來講應該是比往年要來得好,比我們的招募目標數有超過100%"},{"start":5514.381,"end":5526.135,"text":"那這個當然我們不會以此而自滿那接下來就是說志願役的這些尤其像某些主戰部隊他的變性比較低的這個狀況那我們"},{"start":5529.358,"end":5548.208,"text":"在經過我們上一次戰鬥部隊加急加了之後呢當然當然有改善但是他的改善的一個程度呢確實有不一也就是說有一些地區是有相當程度的改善那有些地區可能比較不容易改善那這些部分呢我想"},{"start":5549.611,"end":5559.328,"text":"我們透過這個待遇當然是其中一部分所以這一次軍工教育有整體待遇調整那另外有關加急的部分我們也會來持續的跟人總來檢討有關這個"},{"start":5562.823,"end":5580.492,"text":"這些家籍的部分的適用的對象以及家籍的種類所以部長你也是沒有回答到我所提到的問題現行這些中高階的事關的離退的增加的情況我們有沒有去做統計原因是為什麼您講的是那個博士府嗎"},{"start":5581.472,"end":5599.759,"text":"對 為什麼會 我們好不容易培養了這麼久的人才沒有 我們現在的統計是不市府的人數是現在不市府的人數跟一百一十四年跟一百一十三年來相比的話是減少了差不多是一千六百"},{"start":5600.961,"end":5619.297,"text":"那這樣的情況有沒有去分析過原因是為什麼是因為勤務增加了嗎 人力不足還是說薪水問題種種應該有會統計出一些大方向出來 幹部如果按照現在他們會說要離退的這個原因看起來還是以生涯規劃的"},{"start":5620.778,"end":5623.68,"text":"我們這幾年其實勤務越來越多中高階的這些軍事官其實很不容易培養而且那個都是時間成本 從要進去軍校 收訓 到部隊 再歷練這樣子"},{"start":5643.109,"end":5659.889,"text":"黑人是我們的先輩 那是國家投入大量的心血人力是最大的成本那這樣的成本我們沒有辦法有效把它留在部隊裡面這對部隊是 對國家都是很大很大的一個損失這樣所以我們是不是要把問題理清楚到底是什麼原因 是我請勿太多了是不是我最近"},{"start":5661.33,"end":5678.943,"text":"這幾年我們都特別預算也特別多我們採購人力是不是同一批人在辦理購在採購然後管考這部分是不是會增加他的工作量我想這個都是我想要表達說我們是不是有些東西沒有去把它解決造成我們的中高階的軍事官都會離退這樣子"},{"start":5681.512,"end":5697.371,"text":"我想剛剛也有委員垂詢就是說有關這個軍中的這個服役的這個他是不是有這個任務過多或者重複這些我們我想我們會來檢討那這第一點第二點就是說也報告過就是說"},{"start":5698.554,"end":5726.63,"text":"我們這個不適合的人數確實是有在降低那我們再錄影的人數也持續來提高所以我們會一直來朝向這個來努力但是少子化的結果造成可真亦然的人數減少我們要跟社會競爭這是無可避免的一個事實所以部長你講的是離退的情況有改善嘛對不對對 離退的情況改善 流言歷改善另外再錄影的人數也增加那我們今天離退率改善下降了多少"},{"start":5727.509,"end":5751.494,"text":"我們哪一個單位最明顯說我們單位我們因為做了一些措施離退率改善這樣子好的方式應該讓各單位來看以後我們可以比照這方式啊你的意思是說以各單位的離退率的想法我意思說哪一個單位他的離退率現在改善之後他最低嘛他表現可以讓大家來學習的嘛哪一個單位可以來做一個model可以讓大家學"},{"start":5753.224,"end":5770.596,"text":"各單位的這個離特利的狀況我可能要下去以後再做了解好 謝謝部長 部長時間關係我想我接下來就跳到另外一個就是說我們你也講到今天也提到科技建軍要讓部隊科技化自動化 我想請教說我們以鄰近的國家日本來看 它的最上級的護衛艦"},{"start":5772.017,"end":5794.137,"text":"他一樣日本跟我一樣面對少子化問題他為了解決問題他用自動化跟科技跟那個自動化的方式他依照高度的自動化把他的以這個上級鑑來看最上級的護衛鑑來看他把鑑遠從220人降到90人那美軍其實也同樣的方向就是我知道人不夠了我就用我的技術跟科技"},{"start":5794.718,"end":5812.345,"text":"用我的設備來解決我的人力不夠那我們有沒有朝這個方向未來的三年我們哪一些武器我們哪一些部隊也會用這種自動化的方式來補足這個減少人力不足的部分部長可以明確的講一下慢慢講這個方向有沒有比較明確的"},{"start":5813.325,"end":5832.653,"text":"它當然越新式的武器,它所需要的操作能力就會越精簡,那譬如說我們相關現在遠距精準火力最明顯就海馬式海馬式的一輛車子總共是需要它發揮的火力就跟傳統的砲兵的火力就有很大的不同"},{"start":5834.265,"end":5849.556,"text":"這個部分我們區分成兩個部分,就是我們一些過去需要大量人力去執行的,包含情報延期工作的這個部分,我們已經規劃導入人工智慧系統,那在未來大幅的降低他的人力需求。"},{"start":5850.276,"end":5866.025,"text":"那在作戰部門的這個部分我們也朝向去採購那些使用人數比較少然後效率比較高剛剛部長有提到海馬式多管火箭系統然後未來新式的自走砲大概都是朝這個方向"},{"start":5866.305,"end":5893.82,"text":"好沒關係時間的關係我想回頭再提供給本席辦公室那我剛剛有提到不想本席剛剛提到就是說人力上的負荷這一部分喔那就像我剛才我一開始提到我們這幾年特別預算執行的比較多那一案接一案然後採購的案件越來越多我想要請教的是那負責採購的人力你有沒有增加那負責整個管控的人力有沒有增加還是同一批人在做一樣的事情採購的"},{"start":5899.087,"end":5922.082,"text":"採購的這個部分因為我們目前整個規劃的部分我們已經朝向由國防部統一掌握三軍各採購人員採取專案編組的方式去執行各個項目以避免過去我們煙囪式的單獨去執行的時候會變成需要的人力更多可是效力更不好所以這個部分我們也會逐次去檢討"},{"start":5927.426,"end":5935.898,"text":"應該 現在都在國防部裡面了我想 本市想表達的意思是還是同一批人在做這樣的事情嘛你有沒有多增加人力給他"},{"start":5937.116,"end":5950.719,"text":"市委好 我是國防採購室主任市長 向委員報告整個採購人力的邊線我們都有掌握到各單位如果邊線筆不夠實際人力不夠我們都有開班地級的班隊請各單位建訓來增加採購人力隨時都在滾動式的檢討"},{"start":5962.369,"end":5988.902,"text":"是昨天也知道其實如果同樣一批人在做這些事情他還要報告原本的情務喔那loading越來越大之後我相信啦我相信在這樣的高壓的情況之下離退的情況會越來越多是本席只要提醒部裡面真的要去注意到人力的配置因為我們我們都想要讓這個國家的軍力更好能夠更保護台灣更保護國家之外的土地但是loading不能一直加上去"},{"start":5990.905,"end":6009.879,"text":"是 採購啊 採購的人力啊我們今天不是一個公差勤務的性質啊當然啦 當然啦他是要有專業的 是甚至說他一定要有基礎的證照來辦這個採購的業務昨天講得非常好 這叫專業專業所以我們有沒有要規劃要長期讓他增加因為我們的採購人越來越多嘛特別一件加一件嘛"},{"start":6011.14,"end":6019.711,"text":"因為有一些大規模的採購,剛剛有講,他是回歸到國防部來統一那相關的各部隊,他有時候要進行採購,我們也會進行訓練所以他是一個"},{"start":6024.127,"end":6040.463,"text":"專責的一個單位來進行這樣的一個採購我們其實是希望說我們不希望讓我們弟兄讓我們的中高階好風培養出來的這些軍官因為這樣的工作環境這樣層層累積起來的工作讓他離開造成我們部隊的損失"},{"start":6041.664,"end":6064.644,"text":"那好 接下來要問到就是剛剛有 崔總剛剛委員提到這個加薪的部分加薪真的能夠留得住人嗎我在想這件事情喔因為最近軍工教調整待遇大家最關心的是加薪之後到底可以增加多少的招募這個部分有沒有去做評估然後因為加薪可以降低多少的離退這部分我們有沒有去做過這樣的評估 部長"},{"start":6066.901,"end":6079.979,"text":"我想我們當然有關提高我們的福利待遇然後我們其中包括相關的這些薪資待遇因為我們有各項的"},{"start":6081.428,"end":6109.399,"text":"還蠻多的一些福利待遇那當然薪資待遇的提升當然是其中的一個重要的一款所以我只有說明就是說我們在報告裡面確實有提到114年的職業人員確實較113年增加了3000多個人那114年留營率也是確實增加了5.2%然後不似乎的人數也減少了1600多人所以可見當然我們各項剛剛有提到一些包括"},{"start":6110.297,"end":6135.667,"text":"持續更新住用的環境提升關閉的醫療照護等等當然薪資待遇也是其中裡面重要的一環所以我想這些都是我們要持續努力的謝謝部長 其實本席最後要再提醒我們其實至今我們投入超過一兆的採購武器的經費這陣子的挑戰其實不是現在是日後的20年它的維修"},{"start":6136.187,"end":6162.905,"text":"他的授權 他的零件 他的專業人員 他的操作人員部長 這個是不是 我們是不是有全授期的這個財務的規劃有沒有去評估未來每年保修這個預算的需求我 我很 部長本期其實有問過你嘛我們不要有一天買得起 超跑買不起 換不起輪子嘛所以這個東西我們都要思考到嘛這些有沒有做這樣的規劃 有沒有我們當然有做 我們向虎記進來都有做全授期的那個規劃"},{"start":6168.221,"end":6182.297,"text":"我想國軍真正缺的不是武器,國軍真正缺的是人才,人才是重點。我們真正要改革的不是招募的口號,是我們要怎樣把人才留下來,這個制度才是重要的。"},{"start":6183.118,"end":6211.798,"text":"那我想我們沒有辦法把人才留下來我們買再多的武器都沒有用那特別是我也要幫這些長期投入在軍中的弟兄講一句話他把他人生最青春最精華的時間奉獻給這個國家我們希望能夠提供更好的環境讓他可以在他的工作上發揮所長然後保家而為國最重要是可以照顧他的家人那我想今天有一些問題提到的部分我們也希望部裡面能夠再會後將一些資料提供給本辦公室來做參考那以上謝謝主席主席"},{"start":6212.878,"end":6223.188,"text":"謝謝部長我想我們共同來持續來努力謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":6242.455,"end":6255.343,"text":"我們請次士也上來好了是 王偉好好 部長早我第一個先請教一下因為在7月6號中國解放軍跟俄羅斯在聯合軍演那7月6號他們在"},{"start":6257.813,"end":6284.115,"text":"用他們的核子動力潛艦發射了一枚潛射型的洲際彈道導彈朝向太平洋當然中國的文宣戰 心理戰 認知戰把它描述成飛越它有動畫喔 那個動畫拍得很假但是它有個動畫飛越日本的上空然後好像快要接近美國本土但事實上不是這樣子啦那我先請教就是就目前國防部掌握的狀況"},{"start":6285.456,"end":6309.233,"text":"這一個載台是什麼 發射的是什麼然後陸近 另外他們發射這一枚淺色型的洲際彈道導彈 它的戰略上目的是什麼委員好 請自市市長 回應剛剛委員所關切的這個問題第一個發射的載台跟位置呢 我想我們"},{"start":6310.663,"end":6336.955,"text":"有很多工程已經先通佈公佈出來了他大概就是在廣東南邊那是從海面發應該是說從海面發射啦那不是潛射他是海面上發射的對那應該是說怎麼樣的發射或者是什麼樣的彈種早上部長在回答媒體的時候我想我們也做了做了具體的說明說是我們這邊所得到的掌握到的應該是巨浪二型那至於什麼樣的"},{"start":6337.315,"end":6357.323,"text":"巨浪二型大概就6000公里上下嘛大概7000那至於什麼樣的管道途徑這個就不跟文言說抱歉你說情資掌握得到的途徑你可以講說你們自己掌握的但是這應該是交換情報啦因為它飛越距離相當遠那它是用哪一型的核子動力潛艦發射的"},{"start":6359.259,"end":6370.636,"text":"這個在應該是澳洲的外交部台也對外說明說他們所以你們是看報紙知道的不是吧這恐怕我們也沒辦法跟您具體的說明說因為國安會秘書長直接PO在那個X上面"},{"start":6372.401,"end":6398.904,"text":"第一個這應該是情報交換系統得知的啦是是我們有多元的情資交換來源那所以我想我們對這個載台然後還有部長我要問的是這一個這些都有掌握我想公開資訊我在問沒有意思我要問的其實是這一個就是說所謂的多元情資交換它是偶發性的一次性的或定期性的也就是我們是不是在一個情資交換的network裡面"},{"start":6400.283,"end":6415.604,"text":"會固定就我們相關的重要情資做即時性的交換或者是偶一為之有一方要釋放特定的訊息透過我們當作訊息載達把它釋放出來這兩個意義不一樣啦我們現在的情資交換是常態性的嗎"},{"start":6417.677,"end":6446.364,"text":"是OK好那細節我就不問那現在掌握的是巨浪二型那當然它中國習慣性吹牛啦它講飛越日本上空看起來如果在我們東南方它最多是飛越菲律賓上空不會是日本的上空這個時候它在7月6號發射這一枚核子發射這一枚洲際彈道導彈中國的目的是什麼"},{"start":6449.518,"end":6458.31,"text":"我想這個各國都已經對這個他的這樣子的一個一個試射這樣子的一個"},{"start":6461.517,"end":6483.399,"text":"彈道飛彈都已經有所譴責了,我們並不想去評論中國的目的但是我們想要說明的是,他們已經對區域和平穩定造成威脅紐澳、北約、日本、美國都譴責他們破壞區域的和平穩定"},{"start":6484.64,"end":6506.708,"text":"那有這個北約的秘書長呂特他也講了一些話說不要再天真看待中國的威脅但是呢有一方哪一個我就不說了提到說中國展現他的核能力已經從陸地到海上那他這個核能力呢搭配之前的川習會"},{"start":6508.191,"end":6532.563,"text":"以及對台的軍售他等於透過這個動作在喊價希望去對台美之間的安全合作做一些喊價的動作部長你怎麼看我覺得我們還是要從這個如何來維持印太區域和平穩定這個作業那麼很明顯的美國的印太戰略就是集體嚇阻"},{"start":6534.195,"end":6547.485,"text":"集體嚇阻這個集體嚇阻的傾向已經越來越明確所以不管是日本、澳洲、菲律賓甚至韓國我想都在這個第一島鏈的集體嚇阻範圍之內"},{"start":6550.467,"end":6570.308,"text":"我把我另外一個題目就帶進來上一次我問那個環太平洋台灣沒有參與但是你特別在回答的時候請我們國人要注意到兩個演習一個是堅毅之龍一個勇敢之盾然後後來呢美國陸軍太平洋司令部的司令克拉克"},{"start":6571.547,"end":6590.557,"text":"他公開指出這一些這麼多年來這些大大小小的演習叫做穿珍珠也就是他是串起來的他把它取一個名字叫做Operation Pathways那我們知道Operation Pathways這個任務或戰鬥行動是二戰的時候"},{"start":6591.437,"end":6613.061,"text":"美軍要打等於二戰的時候從島鏈佔領打到日本本土的一個代號名稱他現在把這取這個名稱而他在克拉克講得很明白這些穿針珠起來的目的就是嚇阻中國對台灣的武力威脅所以你提到那兩個演習是不是也是這一個戰鬥行動戰鬥任務裡面的"},{"start":6617.504,"end":6636.731,"text":"我想所有在美國在印太區域他為了要維持他的這個印太區域和平穩定那也朝向集體嚇阻的這個這個角度出發他要進行跟各相關國家進行聯合演訓我想其目的當然"},{"start":6638.171,"end":6664.168,"text":"就相當的清楚所以我們有在這些聯合演習如果戰鬥行動目的是為了維繫台海和平穩定嚇阻中國對台武力威脅那台灣是主角之一嘛所以在這些穿珍珠的一串珍珠裡面台灣有沒有在這串珍珠裡面我們的演習我們的訓練我們的bilateral exercise"},{"start":6667.526,"end":6683.956,"text":"我想我沒有辦法在這邊透露過多的細節我是認為我們站在第一島鏈的前緣就這整個第一島鏈的位置我們也在輸牛的地位所以我想台灣在"},{"start":6685.495,"end":6710.99,"text":"集體的嚇阻的這個戰略之下我們當然扮演的重要角色邏輯上跟我們的安全直接相關我們不太可能不在這一串珍珠裡面嘛戰爭需要想定想定需要演練演練再修訂修正之後再演練所以這一個我尊重部長的不便透露太多細節那我跳到我最後一題"},{"start":6712.478,"end":6733.35,"text":"最近有一個媒體報導 美軍 他講的是美軍喔年輕的男女軍人 密集的進出龍潭特戰指揮部這個有或沒有 其實我們光搭高鐵遇到美語老師頻率之高 我們大概有感受我現在要請教就是 這些訊息的揭露"},{"start":6734.491,"end":6762.682,"text":"能揭露跟不能揭露本身就有意義以往協訓雙方演訓或者在澎湖或者在屏東這些訊息通常我們是不對外揭露的那目前包含去年的漢光印太司令部的J5的將軍的名牌一直到現在這些請問一下這個訊息的揭露是在台美默契下的揭露或者是不經意被發現"},{"start":6764.219,"end":6781.797,"text":"我想我們都沒有在做特意的主動揭露我想依照台美相關的默契我們都還是維持這個低調跟不公開的方式那這些軍人是現役或者是退役的contractor"},{"start":6782.937,"end":6799.575,"text":"跟委員報告,我想我沒有辦法做過多的說明OK好,這我尊重那原額大概你也不便講啦因為美國的NDA預算書裡面看到原額是寫400但是看起來量我們不曉得但是台美的合作對我們的安全有幫助"},{"start":6800.396,"end":6821.608,"text":"對我們實戰能力的提升有幫助對我們的訓練現代化有幫助本席是樂見那我也尊重該保密的就保密但是這樣子的合作本身訊號就是一種嚇阻力量訊號什麼時候該釋出請國防部跟我們的合作方可以審慎思考我現在再多問一個攸關情次式的"},{"start":6823.477,"end":6847.002,"text":"連續半年了 中共高層在清洗英文我看各大報包含軍事媒體都用Purge這個字清洗共軍的高階將領他的中央軍事委員會七個剩兩個 一個是習近平 一個是管紀律的其他都不見了 張惡霞也不見了然後呢 中將等級的 少將等級的被清洗的將領快要可以組一個連了"},{"start":6848.544,"end":6861.149,"text":"那這半年就情勢是掌握的情資中共高層清洗共軍將領的情況數量你們的得到情資跟狀況是什麼"},{"start":6864.344,"end":6884.646,"text":"郭委員報告第一個我們認為這個數字應該還有持續增加的空間我剛才講的數字還會持續增加一個連以上那至於是多少這個恐怕要中共他自己來回答他回答都騙人的我也不相信你回答我比較相信那第二個要跟您報告的是說秦次市的責任是我們根據我們現在所看到的做出"},{"start":6886.247,"end":6901.809,"text":"預警還有研判跟長官報告我就抓緊這個時間啦所以量比我們想像的還要更多還在持續增加當中那我就要請問你這對共軍解放軍威脅特別是威脅台灣的部分戰力跟指揮鏈有沒有影響"},{"start":6903.06,"end":6930.491,"text":"我想我們要料敵從寬啦我覺得秦司事就是根據他的研判來跟我們報告那我在追問議題他很多事情就是一種判斷不過以料敵從寬來講我看到風險的評估有兩面性有的認為說啊這個延後了他們認為setback那有的認為說這容易盲動蠢動因為只重視中共軍現在只重視政治的效忠程度不重視專業程度請支持評估你們風險是往上走還是往下走"},{"start":6932.19,"end":6939.733,"text":"這個兩面都有啦,我的意思是說,剛剛委員提到有可能盲動,那有可能"},{"start":6942.725,"end":6960.834,"text":"因為你們的評估會演出你們的因應我們看的,其實要看的是現在以及未來可能看得到的這些預警、徵喉所呈現對我們對它未來行動的一個判斷那這個判斷當然包括政治面、非軍事面、軍事面的部分這樣子"},{"start":6961.721,"end":6977.404,"text":"好我最後丟一個題目因為我一直在關心最小域值的更新我們邊線比當然是一個問題那邊線比這個你們現在不用回答因為時間關係我丟題目我希望盡快看到結果到底是哪一支部隊什麼單位邊線比偏低"},{"start":6978.525,"end":6998.665,"text":"什麼樣的層級軍事官兵什麼樣的層級什麼樣的專長邊線比偏低我們要能夠分細分之後根據這樣的邊線比偏低的具體的明細的現象我們才能夠知道投入什麼樣的資源增加什麼樣的佳績留下我們必要要留的人那"},{"start":7000.165,"end":7016.501,"text":"大概去年我去年底開始談到這個這個叫threshold最低域值美軍有這個數據那我們也一段時間研究這個數據什麼時候可以提供出來我希望將來該機密就機密我們在國防委會看到的邊線比不是一個overall的平均數因為那沒有意義啦"},{"start":7018.683,"end":7032.432,"text":"我想我們已經參考了各國戰力延續跟平面防止,用人力素質、後勤支援跟訓練程度三大面向,然後再根據部隊的組成要素,還有軍種的任務,還有武器裝備特性,我們已經進行多次研討。"},{"start":7034.234,"end":7040.72,"text":"已經有相關的戰略指標這個內容包括要提升戰力這個部分也是我這邊很重視但是我想這些部分沒有辦法公開我贊成最低域值"},{"start":7055.494,"end":7080.856,"text":"絕對是機密但是你們有或者說你們適合的方式讓我們委員會可以監督的到我們才知道原來你現在調高這個加級是有意義的那你認為這個應該保密本席尊重因為基於國家利益本來軍事機密應該保密但是這個進度過程要讓我們知道細節內容也許我可以尊重因為你這最低域值算出來之後除了人員的配置以外也牽涉到你要採購什麼樣的裝備"},{"start":7082.757,"end":7107.67,"text":"這個裝備以前要用十個人我現在就要考慮到買用三個人的因為這個地方用的人變少或者哪些人力要釋放出來轉到無人機相關的單位所以如果有已經有一個結果出來請用妥適的方式讓我們委員會知道這樣好嗎我們再找時間跟委員做一個說明好 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢"},{"start":7116.578,"end":7118.183,"text":"好 感謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":7127.551,"end":7155.298,"text":"部長早我想今天排這個專報其實非常重要因為我想現在不論是在公部門和私部門都在謹慎的因應小子女化這個事情而且我常常在提醒現在面對這個問題要比過去更嚴肅的面對而且反應的速度要更快因為我們人口數下降的狀況真的非常多今天報告裡面我看到有很多很不錯的資訊這幾天媒體也充分的在做運用"},{"start":7156.246,"end":7174.706,"text":"像是這個我們用這個115年6月份的這個願意留營的部分增加了大概5000人左右我覺得這個是相當好的一個指標不過還是有些還是要提醒部長這邊可能要注意一些數字"},{"start":7175.627,"end":7199.533,"text":"第一個就是我們可以看到它的資源域的一個比率的狀況我們可以看到沒有錯減少的人數在減少減少的人數在減少這是一個好現象不過剛剛電影委員也在問這個事情就是這個邊線比的部分尤其這個綠子所以這個基本上有一些大家可以看到它這個數字還在繼續的往下滑落"},{"start":7201.053,"end":7224.467,"text":"當然我們比較關心的,有些比較重要的一些特殊的部隊,他的邊線比是不是現在已經低於某一個程度?我們都非常關切這個議題,部長怎麼看這個所謂的邊線比的部分?邊線比的部分就是說,剛剛王委員提到的那個就是說他要維持一個戰力的部分"},{"start":7225.27,"end":7243.565,"text":"那我們現在就是要去分析說每一個部隊他所能夠具備的戰力大的一個程度然後做一個分析然後統計出一個結果然後再根據這樣的一個分析的結果我們再來具體來"},{"start":7247.188,"end":7272.225,"text":"做就是說如何強化他的這個戰力然後他的戰力如何在一旦有事的時候就能夠立即作戰對 剛剛柯立委有說到就是比較特殊的不過我其實講一個更大的就是說希望部長能夠是不是可以讓他那個這個畢竟下滑的速度可以支持止住讓他那個曲線能夠比較不要繼續往下掉"},{"start":7273.662,"end":7294.669,"text":"這當然是我們現在要努力的一個方向所以必須也坦承跟委員報告就是說我們在報告裡面有提到因為我們現在一年級的151人數會逐年增加因為大部分的人都在念大學所以明年會有比較多的151人數進來"},{"start":7296.38,"end":7322.642,"text":"那這一位人數進來之後他是經過一年的一個比較完整的訓練那這些訓練的人力如果他能夠符合我們各部隊的一個要求的需求的話我們就會要導入各部隊所以我們會提到就是說現在大家都在講那個戰鬥部隊的這個兵線兵線問題所以我們會有提到我們會跟人種規劃就是說"},{"start":7324.452,"end":7338.437,"text":"EVE如果他願意去戰鬥部隊的話,他也是可以領戰鬥部隊的假期,那一方面第一個,他人數多,他有這樣子的意願的人數可能也會多"},{"start":7338.993,"end":7362.825,"text":"那第二個我們再增加這樣的誘因然後我們志願役的招募還是要持續的加強讓我們有一個完整的義務役的訓練然後讓他取得一個高專的能力然後讓我們納入貨幣的邊管然後來持續維持他的能力然後這樣子我想這個是我們現在如果"},{"start":7363.825,"end":7390.02,"text":"換換的來講就是我們整套的一個政策規劃所以部長剛剛比較著重在這個就是意義它會增加嘛那還有基層的官司兵因為現在很多可能是四個月的那它兵很多但是它可能不具有這個特殊的訓練那我們需要還有足夠的士官足夠的軍官這樣所以部長選訓練有的很重要啦那我一看到你們的報告裡面那個那個選的部分徵選的部分看到有放寬部分的一些條件"},{"start":7391.061,"end":7392.682,"text":"第三頁的部分志願事關甄選的部分"},{"start":7406.798,"end":7423.883,"text":"士兵,這邊是士兵甄選的部分,還有放官部分的那個是是是,這個是有關那個放官甄選的部分,就是說身高的限制啊身高的限制就取消了,因為過去是多少是直接沒有那個身高的限制,還是說"},{"start":7425.673,"end":7439.38,"text":"就是高沒有限制了是是是對啊那個部長應該知道我們在學這個這個這個倡議很久了覺得現在科這個科技化的部隊其實這個這個比較以前的想法應該可以可以把它拿掉對對"},{"start":7441.281,"end":7468.994,"text":"身高最高一部分這個限制已經拿掉了那最低身高是降到150那另外一個就是沒有不是因為品德因素而提前退伍的話可以放寬再錄影所以我覺得這個部分可能部長可以考慮一下啦我覺得因為現在科技建軍也許是坐在週刊機前面這個過去的很多想法可能不大一樣這個可以提供部長參考那當然另外一個就是有關於我們現在看起來這個"},{"start":7470.234,"end":7496.043,"text":"女性的這個人力運用非常重要那我也看到了這個好像布裡面有關於這個相關跟我們那邊要性供要對齊的部分好像我們也送進來了我們那個職業的那個市民的那個條例不管是六條之一或是六條我看到都已經對齊了你說我們那個以前叫育嬰育嬰流體現在已經改成育兒流體已經改到六歲了對不對他剛剛已經送進來了"},{"start":7497.103,"end":7506.568,"text":"我不曉得過去你們評估如果變成六歲過去和現在我們女性的官兵他們可以請到育嬰留庭的狀況怎麼樣市長我們回去再統計一下再給我們一些資料這次可以看到不論是我們的倡議或是賴總統的大禮包其實這件事情都有正面的回應包括產價已經拉到希望拉到12週"},{"start":7526.357,"end":7555.886,"text":"我們當然希望因為部隊的女性是外面當然比較特別我們還是希望她能夠真的享受這些我們因應嫂子女化給她的一些不同的一些組織我另外一問題就是我們現在其實在那個性供或者是那個救衛保險法我們都有考慮到那種所謂的家庭照顧現在叫育兒假我們現在這邊軍方這邊有沒有考慮到那個部分"},{"start":7558.849,"end":7576.285,"text":"我們現在家庭照顧是7日 這是有規範對 我知道 這個是現行的啦 不過我們那邊現在都已經拉高了有一種說法是要跟一個遊艇要來合併計算不曉得軍方這邊有沒有這種想法我想我們軍的部分都跟公教會對齊"},{"start":7577.366,"end":7599.073,"text":"所以相關他們那個性別公共評審法或者是就業保險法他們有相關的修正或是這邊也都相對應的就已經修正對 因為我們現在那邊其實希望這個爸爸媽媽都能夠請所以他們現在還有就有規劃這種所謂的爸媽都有請的時候可以我們軍的部分都會 應該都會對齊對齊"},{"start":7602.952,"end":7618.871,"text":"那當然啦 我剛剛說了就是說軍方這邊我們得到的訊息啦是大家要請這種東西是不是因為有一些特殊的任務啦比較困難不曉得這個部長對於這個事情的話在軍方這邊在推動上有沒有什麼困難或者是覺得應該要還有什麼需要協助的部分"},{"start":7620.874,"end":7644.216,"text":"預而留庭或預因,以前叫預因留庭啦,以前是三歲嘛,現在這個我剛剛說已經改到六歲了我們現在都配合這個政府的這個現在的人口,個人就叫什麼,人口新戰略是是是,所以我覺得也很重要啦,因為我剛剛說我們都配合,所以我們也修法的部分也都已經行政院院會我們都有提出去"},{"start":7647.137,"end":7672.102,"text":"我好幾次都一直在呼籲這個事情除了這個托育這個托嬰的部分其實我們在外面就兩歲以下的部分其實是非常需要我上次不管在預算或質詢的時候有特別提到這個好像這邊的回答是好像已經在規劃北中南四處的部分這個部分也確實是在規劃當中是不是可以跟大家說一下大概軍方現在規劃的一個狀況"},{"start":7673.635,"end":7693.082,"text":"委員好,我是政戰局的副局長。我們現在目前規劃托育中心兩歲以下的,我們總共選擇四處,地點都已經挑好了。其中我們高雄左營醫院,它現在在整建當中,大概預計會在年底到明年年初就可以招生了。"},{"start":7693.402,"end":7720.794,"text":"是 是 好好 那我想今天我就做個結論啦我覺得小池女的話真正我們這個大方向整個比較上位的政策上一定要到位啦不管從選啊 訓啊 這個學習任務的部分都要跟上啦那因為我們其他那邊不管是公或者是私部門那邊都有做一些處理我也希望軍方能夠跟他們對齊不過我也了解啦我知道軍方的那個很多任務是比較特殊的所以我們也可以再來規劃看看怎麼樣因應這些這個"},{"start":7722.495,"end":7726.897,"text":"我們那邊做了一些倡議的部分以上 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝我們接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":7751.569,"end":7752.273,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請部長好 請顧部長"},{"start":7761.046,"end":7788.279,"text":"市委好部長好那這個因為今天是對應今天這個是少子化衝擊但是我比較多還是要問現在國軍內部的一些待遇那現在因為我們的這是我們整理就是從2025一直到去年的8月到今年的8月那我們可以看到不管是單一軍種跨軍的聯合還有全民防衛的整合你看這個救災聯合的操演什麼等等之類"},{"start":7789.259,"end":7804.676,"text":"這其實排得很滿現在真的是排得非常的滿所以我們就發現就是說因為我們過往在這個部長之前其實也有提過就是要兼顧家庭的照顧然後宣布國軍政府主觀留職來恢復常態"},{"start":7806.378,"end":7827.701,"text":"所以我們從2024就是從我們這一屆立委院開始從取消這個官兵休假回報制度開放官兵出國自由行調整志願役的官兵的返營時間等等之類的我覺得因為搭配他們這個越來越緊湊的這個時程這些政策當然都是良性的都是好的"},{"start":7828.502,"end":7848.703,"text":"但是我們還是一樣還是會接到一些回報就是說呢因為這個不斷的演訓跟留守就讓他們在留守、戰備、移防在演訓中這樣不斷的度過那在這個其實我們有很多的軍人他們自己也是要小孩他們或者有育兒"},{"start":7849.424,"end":7866.69,"text":"所以也就是說對他們來講能不能夠有一點預先知道的時間這個對他們在安排休假上幫助還是非常的大所以我們今天本來要討論的是整個國家少子化這樣對國軍的影響那國軍他們自己他們也有生兒育女的需求"},{"start":7867.33,"end":7888.112,"text":"那他們在生兒育女的需求上面其實有時候預先的排程對他們來說很重要那我們知道其實有時候雖然這個大方向已經有了但中層的主觀有時候還是會有比較多的一些內部的要求的事項臨時可能一旦留下來結果又是一個禮拜那本來他可能預先排好的這個事情就沒有辦法進行"},{"start":7888.712,"end":7907.592,"text":"所以呢 這個呢 就是可不可以這邊我就 這邊就我想說不用直接回答因為等一下後面問題還很多但是就是 是不是請部長還是要再度考量就是說我們官兵現在因為畢竟我們現在這個國際情勢之下他們的戰務 他們的這一個壓力是與時俱增啦"},{"start":7908.152,"end":7932.807,"text":"那當他們在安排他們自己休假還有安排他們自己的時間的時候如果有更多預先的這一個這個時程的安排的話對他們來講會比較有利那另外一個我比較想問的反而是這一個就是我們現在就是畢竟在我們的這應該是我們的戰規司在之前我覺得是一個歷史包袱就是說在裁軍的那時候需求之下把這一個編制把它減少"},{"start":7933.807,"end":7956.162,"text":"但是像我們的訓刺士等等之類的對於我們待命這個部分呢這個跟我們的所謂的這一個剛剛講的戰規室的這個編制常常這個人員是沒有辦法合在一起所以就會變成說他們現在有時候呢就是常常還是要調別的地方的人來然後來做這一個待命那我們這一個我知道我們的勤務部隊就已經非常的辛苦"},{"start":7956.582,"end":7975.869,"text":"那之前我在質詢的時候這其實是我2025年11月的這個PowerPoint這我簡報是2025年那時候就有問到這一個題目就是說這種部隊的橫向支援有時候越來越常出現因為就是個人數中間的差距那當時的回答是說這個回去會在研擬"},{"start":7976.569,"end":7991.255,"text":"再思考一下看說要怎麼去解決這樣的事項那我想說今天這個題目應該是蠻好的一個追蹤的時候所以是不是可以請部長或者說請相關的這一個部門來簡單的講一下這件事情就是這種支援勤務的事情該怎麼解決"},{"start":7993.813,"end":8012.535,"text":"我應該問到的是有關一些委外的事項我們先以軍事院校所以軍事院校在今年9月1號開始光大學陸軍管校海軍管校都會先行事辦就是不需要由軍人去是什麼時候開始"},{"start":8013.676,"end":8024.631,"text":"今年的九月開始第一階段第二階段是明年的一月一號那就是包括陸軍專科學校空軍航空技術學院還有中正瑜校還有"},{"start":8028.69,"end":8044.147,"text":"對,這幾個,然後一共就分第一階段、第二階段,我們都會來施行做這個,由這個學校來聘警衛保全,就不需要再由軍人在做這些。這樣可以減低他們的負擔。對對,他們就回到他們的"},{"start":8046.629,"end":8065.843,"text":"原來的單位能夠專注於戰訓本部那紀念九月 因為我就想說這個當然是一陣子以前九月先事辦五處的校區因為光大有三個校區然後陸軍 海軍然後再來第二階段是明年一月一號再有九處"},{"start":8070.564,"end":8086.202,"text":"總共九處,再加四處,所以總共九處好,那我們就到之後呢,九月開始事辦之後呢我們再來評估一下,看是不是有失職減少因為畢竟就讓他們回到原來的戰訓本屋,不然這樣一直互相支援加上我們剛剛前面講的,其實他們的事情真的非常的多"},{"start":8086.642,"end":8115.53,"text":"那還有另外一個這個是比較小的就是我剛剛講的是我們要這個是去年開始提到現在就是這個橫向支援有時候會造成人力的不足嘛那還有一種縱向的那縱向的指的就是這跟國防部沒有直接的關係是比如說我們的府院可能有一些什麼計畫可能有一些AI相關的那這個時候呢可能各部會呢也都是會派人去做或者說去成立一些新的專案那這個時候呢也會讓我們的基層有時候呢也是就是為了"},{"start":8116.49,"end":8134.655,"text":"就是上面可能已經喊了一個計畫但其實國軍這邊並沒有一定要坐著此後反而我們也要調人上去所以我們也是接到一部分的陳情就是說他們對於現在他們不是橫向的人力的調備而是縱向的去做人力的調備對他們來講也是一個負擔"},{"start":8136.235,"end":8161.097,"text":"那這個呢我想說我可能會在總質詢的時候來問院長就是說現在到底有哪些大計畫然後哪些大計畫是一定要國防部來做支援那如果沒有需要國防部做支援的那其實就應該讓國防部回歸原來的本務那這個我就不多問那這個是也是我之前問過的這個是在講這一個休假的這個補貼啦啊那個時候呢也是說回去會這一個因為"},{"start":8162.251,"end":8188.265,"text":"畢竟這一個到底要不要用這個折算機的部分其實是還要討論的但因為也過了一段時間不知道部長現在對這件事情的回覆如何我們現在是說我們每個都要就要能夠排休嘛所以這個每個單位都應該在每個月的25號前要將次月的這個休假的計畫管制表完成"},{"start":8189.385,"end":8204.496,"text":"編排以後來公布那如果因為任務而影響到官兵休假的話他就必須要在任務前實施預休或者是任務後來遮其補休那這個要跟官兵來說明原因"},{"start":8205.476,"end":8227.512,"text":"因為這個就是說因為我們自己也有稍微試算就是說如果今天呢他們真的都修不到然後去用金額折算的話大概需要的預算可能也是要一億所以說多不多 說少不少但是我覺得可能還是可以研擬看看因為他有時候他就是沒有辦法修到那沒有辦法修到的話有沒有這樣的一個折算機的方式這是我們之前有問過那看是不是有什麼機會我們再來討論一下是"},{"start":8231.865,"end":8253.623,"text":"我們這個可能要請人事單位因為我們這個可能要研議因為我們現在還是盡量希望他們如果因為任務的影響他們的休假還是盡量讓他能夠能夠折起來來進行補修朝這個方向來規劃"},{"start":8254.904,"end":8274.737,"text":"因為畢竟你看這個像左邊這邊我們有附一些截圖這都是以前就在一些論壇裡面一些不管是眷屬等等之類他們的一些雖然是抱怨但他們其實心裡也知道就是他們的另外一半就是如此的辛苦那如果有這樣的一個折算的制度的話我相信對他們來講可能也會有一定的幫助我們來討論看看"},{"start":8276.818,"end":8303.735,"text":"那還有一個就是說這跟今年的一些政策有關係但總之就是這些所謂的剛剛前面這個育嬰留庭這些所謂的一些津貼那因為今年政院版有提那軍人保險條例這邊我自己也有提就是說因為他們都是有我們的軍人有本縫然後再加上家籍那所以在整體的這個制度上面他的那個本縫看起來就不會那麼的高"},{"start":8304.455,"end":8322.451,"text":"但是我們現在在做育兒留職津貼的計算用本縫去做計算因為我們在歷史的過程當中一直是用加級把它弄上去本縫反而沒有那麼高這時候在計算育兒留職津貼的時候可能會反而有點太低"},{"start":8325.033,"end":8344.253,"text":"那這個今年我們在政院提出來的這一個6月26的時候這個我看16條之一啦居然保險條例的16條之一我們有提到就是說呢如果低於以法定最低工資為保險基數計算應補足其差額啦那所以不知道這個國防因為這個看起來就是接下來會討論的"},{"start":8345.254,"end":8356.039,"text":"那不知道部裡面對這件事情的態度如何我知道如果直接調本縫的話大概大概是姿勢體大了但是如果說今天是如果在有差額的狀況之下有沒有補足的空間"},{"start":8358.233,"end":8381.943,"text":"就是草案已經送就剛委員提到那個草案已經行政院會通過了現在要函請立法院來審議所以布裡面的態度是樂觀啟程對我們已經修了這個我們提出草案送到行政院行政院也審議通過了好沒有問題那這個是之前有討論到說就是我們對於這個不同的家籍"},{"start":8382.543,"end":8402.742,"text":"那我記得好像第二個吧是不是是不是無人機部的這個加急這個已經已經有齁那但是其他部分的加急呢就是那時候部長是說有一個時程就是呢我們對於這一個不同的這一個戰爭部隊的加急然後呢哪一個類型然後我們什麼時候做那這個我就因為我時間已經到了我就晚一點再問我問最後一題就好就是我們的這一個新安專案"},{"start":8403.863,"end":8420.072,"text":"就是說我認為就是說我們這個住宿有兩件事情我想建議第一個當然就是呢心安專案它是一個好事因為我在今天的這個報告裡面有看到這個心安專案那讓這個裡面呢能夠整修讓我們的軍眷能夠入住這絕對是好的這個沒有問題這是第一個"},{"start":8421.773,"end":8439.387,"text":"那第二個就是呢因為在應該是在高雄吧我記得在有一些地方本身國防部有一些地那這樣大概全台灣國防部都有一些地然後這些地呢他們可能跟地方政府做一些配合配合之後呢可能去蓋住宅然後這個住宅有一定的比例比如說三層比如說四層就是"},{"start":8439.907,"end":8465.209,"text":"也是保留給我們的軍眷那這樣的好處就是說呢第一個他跟地方上有合作讓地方上有更多的好的住宅然後第二個你又在照顧軍眷照顧官兵讓他們又有一個一定比例的好的住宅能夠入住所以呢不知道國防部有沒有可能有機會就是這陣子盤點一下就是在我們全台灣有哪些哪些地有辦法在做類似像這樣的事情"},{"start":8466.128,"end":8487.471,"text":"跟委員報告第一個當然就是您講的這個新安專案之後現在已經在規劃嶄新專案所以現在會有17案的營舍跟道路整建這個是部分那另外的部分你有提到那個我們有一些地跟那個做設宅的這個部分那他會有保留一定的戶數給我們那我們現在是"},{"start":8492.515,"end":8501.243,"text":"還有蠻多戶的我們會現在就是我們去爭取就是按第二類二類的話就是按照一般的在打"},{"start":8502.594,"end":8523.309,"text":"再折7折也就是說它比一般社宅入住的那個租金然後再往下打7折這樣子OK然後保留一定的戶數給我們有有有因為這個它跟我們拿地然後就該社宅嘛那所以就要回饋我們的那個一定的戶數這樣子"},{"start":8524.89,"end":8546.686,"text":"那希望這樣的話對我們的一些軍券等等之類的會有一些幫助那如果說有更多的地 植物宿舍的部分我們也陸續會來如果有更多的地的話我們就再來盤點我們這部分蓋社會住宅我們封回來當植物宿舍對 剛剛等一下就是植物宿舍部分我們會跟內政部蓋社會住宅然後封回來給我們當植物宿舍"},{"start":8547.687,"end":8568.186,"text":"沒有問題 因為我覺得這個對全台灣來講都會是一個很好的發展今天問題比較多 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員的質詢 部長喝口水我們下面請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":8576.108,"end":8576.549,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":8585.358,"end":8600.851,"text":"部長好部長今天我們針對這個少子女化衝擊國軍人力資源的這個部分我們希望可以做一個探討那因為少子女化是台灣重要的國安問題2025年台灣出生數已經在10萬的邊緣那今年就是2026年"},{"start":8606.476,"end":8617.486,"text":"恐怕還要下降到9萬人附近就像今天我們國防部報告裡面所說的內政部議政司他在列管這個可爭議難統計資料裡面他"},{"start":8620.669,"end":8624.131,"text":"指出除了有逐年遞減的趨勢116年研判更將降至7萬7千餘人這個對比我們去年11月國防部的報告當時內政部預判116年常備役的體位可爭一難是7萬9千餘人"},{"start":8640.858,"end":8646.16,"text":"這個在短短的八個月以內其實它已經下降兩千人所以這個對我們整體的軍力可能會造成很大的影響在這裡首先先請教部長國軍邊線比是已達到多少為目標"},{"start":8658.796,"end":8684.619,"text":"我想我們的邊線比對每一個部隊來講我們當然都希望是在80%這樣子那我們剛剛看到的一些數據資料以現在呈現出來我們幾乎都沒有達到80%所以這個少於這樣的比例會有什麼樣的影響當然就我們的維持這個"},{"start":8686.745,"end":8690.075,"text":"一定的這個集戰力的這個部分當然是會有一定的影響"},{"start":8691.072,"end":8695.794,"text":"所以其實我們現在面對的難題是這樣不管我們提供了多少的福利措施或者有很多的改善作為可是顯然沒有辦法達到這樣的目標就像我們有裝備沒有人操作一人身兼多職或者輪值的頻率增加訓練跟勤務壓力上升部隊的士氣下降等等其實這個可能都是我們這個"},{"start":8716.765,"end":8729.216,"text":"邊線比如果少於這樣子的80%至少維持這樣子的一個比例的時候它可能會造成這麼多的影響那沒有足夠的人力也會影響戰備品質跟作戰的效率我想這個我們都很清楚可是我們看到我們現在今天探討到現在我們看到的好像我們也沒有把實質的問題真正的把它點出來或者我們應該要怎麼樣的精進的作為好像也沒有辦法提出來因為"},{"start":8744.748,"end":8751.632,"text":"我們看到整個說明或報告裡面我們看到招募的這個成效好像是提高了成效也很好然後留言率也很好也增加了五千人可是賠錢要離開的也增加了這三樣都創新高可是這之間又都是矛盾的所以我們到底問題出在哪裡因為我們不希望玩文字遊戲像我們的招募"},{"start":8773.506,"end":8792.574,"text":"其實所有的招募都非常的辛苦因為現在等於是全軍都是招募員要招募這些相關的志願役的人員進來其實真的不容易可是我們如果說只是把目標數把它調低然後就認為說這是達標那顯然對我們現在的問題是沒有辦法改善的因為我們也看到現在除了這些相關的邊線筆不足以外"},{"start":8802.518,"end":8818.245,"text":"因為在2021年到2024年度 招獲志願士兵大概52674人可是為扶滿現役最少年限而提前離隱的志願役士兵"},{"start":8819.125,"end":8829.449,"text":"人數高達一萬兩千八百八十四人等於這個站我們站就是招貨志願士兵的人數的二十四點四七趴志願士兵每四個人就有一個人寧願賠錢也要提前退伍所以他到底是什麼樣的問題會發生這樣的狀況那"},{"start":8840.854,"end":8854.398,"text":"在義務役男開始大量進入軍中的時候這個在我們的數字上面當然也會提升國軍的邊線比可是過去少子女化的影響逐漸擴大以後不但志願役的士兵來源會縮減連義務役士兵的來源也同樣都會縮減"},{"start":8859.66,"end":8871.206,"text":"所以我們現在要談到的就是說我們為什麼在恢復一年期的義務役而且增加了女性禁用的比例現在國軍女性在軍中已經達到16.6%這也是越來越高的這樣的一個佔比那國軍的邊線比確還是在80%的邊緣掙扎"},{"start":8881.992,"end":8902.787,"text":"這是我們可能比較希望可以有具體的一個答案然後要有什麼樣的作為今天所探討的一個主要的目的因為我們隨著國軍採購新興武器裝備逐步的到位那國防部雖然已經汰除部分餘售的餘售線的這些相關的軍品可是現實仍然存在新舊裝備並存的狀況比如說我們M1A2跟M60還有海馬斯跟雷霆火箭"},{"start":8911.793,"end":8915.777,"text":"甚至美系裝備跟中科院委制的這些裝備它整合的問題比如說像天公跟愛國者雄風跟魚叉新舊武器並存武器系統沒有整合我們也沒有辦法減少人力這個本席也曾經提醒像國軍美制魚叉跟中科院雄風系列的飛彈"},{"start":8933.132,"end":8935.654,"text":"到目前為止也沒有辦法整合所以我們要怎麼保證我們未來可以減少人力或者在台灣之盾要建立很智慧的防空體系它會成功我想這個可能都是比較大的問題"},{"start":8948.524,"end":8963.566,"text":"那系統整合的目的之一我們剛剛也提到包括部長還有相關的單位其實都有特別提到就是希望達到國防部以科技取代人力的規劃減少人力的需求可是國防部目前的規劃在哪裡"},{"start":8965.308,"end":8980.876,"text":"因為我們看到你現在很多新式武器也陸續成軍啊比如說像無人機比如說像魚叉還有愛國者以及擴增以後的後備戰力新單位變多人就稀釋了那你的邊線比要怎麼提升可不可以簡要的說明一下跟委員報告就是說少子化是一個我們面臨的一個趨勢那我們現在"},{"start":8988.652,"end":9002.66,"text":"就是說病疫政策來講就是以志願役跟義務雙軌並行嘛那現在主要志願役的招募我們當然還是要持續來加強那我們差不多都會以可爭議難的差不多16.5%的這個比例來做為一個我們招募的目標數那當然我們還是會持續希望能夠招募的"},{"start":9011.347,"end":9025.787,"text":"這個獲得人數要比這個目標要來得高這第一點 第二點就是說EWE改成這個一年之後呢當然比較讓我們有一個充足的一個來做這個精實的訓練從興訓到駐地到基地 然後"},{"start":9026.246,"end":9050.827,"text":"甚至到聯合專案能力的一個測考等等那這些完成,那在這個中間我們現在可以看得出來就是說我們現在兵、士還有基層的軍官這個部分的結構要以補強所以我們必須,我必須坦白講我們除了招募志願役之外那志願役當然他會往上一直升那義務役的部分呢"},{"start":9051.548,"end":9069.26,"text":"在明年大專畢業之後我們要回復招募預備士官來充足基層的機幹能力在這個部分我們也願意跟人種來討論提高誘因假設這些大專畢業的EVE他們願意進入戰鬥部隊我們來爭取他們有一個戰鬥部隊的佳績也就是說自願意跟EVE雙軌"},{"start":9082.068,"end":9108.059,"text":"可振一覽的人數減少那在明年的話預籍一不一的人數在大專畢業之後他進來的人數會有相當的人數這樣子部長剛剛您提到很多從過去到現在其實我們很早就知道少子女化對我們的一些不管是兵員或者我們現在目前的人力都會造成影響過去不管我們我們提過很多的政策事實上其實後來都無疾而終甚至都沒有成功"},{"start":9108.539,"end":9111.582,"text":"所以現在剛剛部長有特別提到說可能在義務役的部分我們也會提供給這個戰鬥家級是不是這個部分就是他進入戰鬥部隊之後我們來提供那你義務役他是用分發的嗎他不是有專長嗎他還是志願啊他可以志願到戰鬥部隊我們就會給他加級"},{"start":9133.48,"end":9147.785,"text":"部長這裡我們要特別提醒因為其實我們所有的人力國軍的人力還有我們的戰力都是以志願役為主那我們志願役加級要給三萬這個部分早就通過我們的"},{"start":9149.165,"end":9166.212,"text":"部隊缺的並不是只有戰鬥部隊而已不是只有戰鬥部隊的人力你所有今天在今天出席的所有與會他們所管理的所有的各個階層所有的人力資源所有的這些戰力其實都非常的重要可是我們卻擺著"},{"start":9167.913,"end":9170.794,"text":"在這個部分我們只願意加急這個三萬我們死都不給然後還釋憲我們現在也甚至在這麼缺人的情況之下連義務役我們都要提供給他加急這個部分我們沒有反對今天如果他願意"},{"start":9184.758,"end":9189.121,"text":"投入到這樣子的戰鬥部隊或辛苦的部隊我們也同意給他這些家籍可是請考量志願役的所有的這些官士兵因為他們有很多我們接下來等一下可能要一點點時間討論這個部分你要怎麼樣吸引人你要怎麼樣留人你要怎麼樣在整個他的"},{"start":9208.275,"end":9216.081,"text":"業務的分配或者他所有的比重其實不是你用簡單的他的什麼所謂的戰鬥部隊或非戰鬥部隊去考量的有很多其實他們做的工作更辛苦而且也非常的重要然後他們現在面臨的可能也會更多我們接下來要看的就是"},{"start":9227.33,"end":9246.076,"text":"預而留止停薪的這個政策剛剛也提到這個部分行政院為了因少子女化的挑戰提出五面向十八項措施國防部也配合修法了可是在這個部分他除了在這個名稱修正以外另外也把"},{"start":9247.096,"end":9274.495,"text":"就是申請適用子女的年齡從三歲修正成六歲以下那留子停薪的期間也是從三歲值修正為滿七歲值那本席其實也同意志願役的官士兵要得到更好的福利照顧可是我們跟公務人員其實是不太一樣的這個部分我們希望我們所有的幕僚單位不要對所有的政策出來"},{"start":9275.416,"end":9283.239,"text":"我們只抄了半套那你的配套呢因為我們現在看到第一個發生的問題像剛剛有委員提到我們現在對於志願役我們可能有這樣留職停薪或者像這樣子的一個配合行政院的修法可是對於義務官兵或者教召的民眾因為他在服勤期間他也適同軍人"},{"start":9299.125,"end":9303.786,"text":"所以如果因為要撫育0到6歲的嬰幼兒是否也有相關的配套措施或是有新的免疫跟緩招的條件目前我們是沒有看到因為你對叫招跟義務役的官士兵其實是跟過去是一樣的那如果像剛剛有委員提到啊你今天"},{"start":9319.071,"end":9333.509,"text":"像小家庭的型態或者單親的型態已經非常普遍了你如果較早一次14天或者像EUE一次可能要一年那你甚至都願意給EUE有戰鬥加急那對於這些相關的這樣的福利措施我們有同步進行嗎"},{"start":9340.162,"end":9358.082,"text":"委員問的是那個叫招的那個來按照那個來核定暫時免除這一次的叫招的部分免招的部分因為你是三歲這個部分我想我們會就兵役法43條那個其他特殊稅項然後任意的這個"},{"start":9358.903,"end":9362.567,"text":"有一個認定標準那這個部分我想我們會來檢討可是還是要明確啦因為你如果是給人去認定的話那到時候會有公平性的問題我們希望如果你在修正的時候你所有的配套都應該要一致的考量"},{"start":9374.261,"end":9383.295,"text":"包括這個只有教 剛剛只有講教召因為那個也不是個案比如說像很多人連出國你都可以了那你如果說像要照顧一個小孩單親家庭你說要自己想辦法那他就是沒有人可以照顧因為他是一個小孩"},{"start":9390.385,"end":9405.184,"text":"它不是一個物品所以這個部分你要怎麼樣去同時的配套要訂出來這個也很重要一屋也是一樣所以這個部分部長已經有說大概要同步的考量那這個部分我們請一併的去做這樣的一個調整好不好"},{"start":9408.898,"end":9428.793,"text":"那另外還有一個就是留職停薪他所遺留下來的業務因為我們都說我們跟行政院公務人員的那個所有的規定全部都一樣可是公務人員他們如果留職停薪的時候他們可以請約聘僱人員可是我們的軍人可以嗎"},{"start":9429.614,"end":9455.53,"text":"你今天如果是一些相關比如重要的可能是飛彈的啦然後飛行員啦或者艦艇的啦或者裝甲兵的啦像這一些如果他留子停薪的時候你沒有辦法用約聘僱的人員因為你一般公司行號他們甚至也可以就是用留子停薪那個人的那個薪水他可以再找人可是我們軍人可以嗎那這個部分你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":9459.883,"end":9479.157,"text":"有想到嗎我們區分成兩個部分來講就是有關於機關的部分我們跟公務人員是一樣的機關不用考量機關你們可以在部隊的部分我們是以重要職務為優先考量然後在有人報"},{"start":9480.638,"end":9497.746,"text":"比如說直訓或是留庭的時候在前面的半年我們會針對那個人力去做調整然後適度的進行補充所以基本上主要的戰力的部分他是會確保但是勤務的部分我們會另外再做調整"},{"start":9498.191,"end":9512.819,"text":"所以其實市長您講的這個真的是只是話術你口頭可以這樣說我們現在邊線筆已經不足了基層的官士兵已經怨聲載道他們的要"},{"start":9514.74,"end":9531.016,"text":"所有的勤務其實都已經非常的艱辛如果你邊線比不足的情況之下有些人就要一個人做兩三個人的工作了如果再有人留職停薪的話他們要這些工作誰做只有他們能做那你要怎麼辦"},{"start":9532.237,"end":9539.342,"text":"像這些不是你說你在半年前你都已經缺人到處都缺人你要從哪裡找人力來這個部分我們不想要你口頭用這樣子帶過去我們要的是你既然要配合行政院這樣的福利措施我們要好好的照顧所有軍事官兵在你現在人力這麼短缺的情況之下你要怎麼做我們今天本來要討論的其實是這樣的配套我們不要你口頭說因為你從哪裡來"},{"start":9559.694,"end":9578.299,"text":"你今天告訴我具體的告訴我們人力要從哪裡來你即使半年前你要調度可是可以從哪裡來所以如果到最後有兩個可能第一個就是有人可能要做得要死那大概又更留不住人了就是有人大概離退的那個機率更高第二個就是"},{"start":9579.139,"end":9600.705,"text":"有些人看得到吃不到這樣子的一個福利措施因為他就是不能休假他就是不能留職停薪他只有這兩種可能所以這兩個部分我們今天要求國防部其實在配合我們所有行政院或者任何政府政策的時候也要同時考量他的實務面應該怎麼做部長可不可以有簡單的一個說明應該要怎麼樣去做精進的一個作為或具體的"},{"start":9608.072,"end":9619.543,"text":"我想委員剛剛指教我們關於現在說育嬰或育兒的流子挺性的期間尤其在部隊的這個部分如果做一個調解這樣我們會下去做一個研討"},{"start":9620.563,"end":9640.438,"text":"好 我們希望可以盡快提出來 因為行政院 這個你都已經修法了嘛你現在都已經要執行了 可是我們現在面臨的問題 你就是不夠人那個不是說你說什麼用科技啊 用什麼火力什麼可以取代這些人他就是非常重要 最近包括烏克蘭 他都已經對全球在徵兵了"},{"start":9643.7,"end":9664.502,"text":"它其實就是消耗戰不管你的武器再精良你不管有再多的武器裝備人還是非常重要的所以我們怎麼樣照顧人我們還是在這裡要提醒如果我們要讓我們的部隊可以有好的發揮我們志願役的家籍請慎重的考量不是只有那些可能"},{"start":9665.903,"end":9679.209,"text":"這些周邊的這些相關的福利大家有的他們才跟著有可是他應該有的我們卻不願意給這個可能才是我們應該要仔細去考量的謝謝 請部長還有我們所有單位可以去評估 謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員質詢下面請徐曉新委員質詢我們這個休息五分鐘五分鐘"},{"start":9692.41,"end":9697.853,"text":"現在嗎現在休息五分鐘 洗個手好 你擦一下好 去洗手"},{"start":10069.363,"end":10072.145,"text":"我們繼續開會 接下來請許曉欣委員上台致決現在主席我們是不是有請顧玉雄顧部長 請顧部長"},{"start":10088.673,"end":10112.854,"text":"今天我們在談國軍人力資源的政策但當然民以食為天所以我們也很關心說我們的軍人同袍他們在飲食方面因為我們軍隊是一起作息一起吃飯所以大家的食安問題是非常關心的現在大家很重視食品的安全"},{"start":10113.394,"end":10139.481,"text":"那在这个中联油脂的大豆沙拉油爆出一级致癌物含量超标之后呢国军其实也受到了波及国防部在7月4号的时候有两点简短的回应第一个是呢已于7月2号要求复工中心下架以及送业第二个部分是国军各单位均已停止使用那我要先问的事情是说我们目前各单位火房的油瓶采购"},{"start":10139.901,"end":10154.324,"text":"那應該就是由復工中心統一辦理採購契約再依照北中南外島等等的這個地區物流配料各營區那第一個問題是我們所採購的油品目前簽約的品牌有幾種"},{"start":10155.385,"end":10174.492,"text":"那現在目前有出示的就包含說中聯、福壽、泰山這些就是我們現在目前掌握採購的跟中聯油脂提供的然後目前已經有公佈的有含致癌的這個致癌風險的油品那有大概的量有多大"},{"start":10176.001,"end":10189.653,"text":"報告員 侯執事長跟您報告第一個我們復工戰工的油品總共有29項那經過核對完之後確定品項及批號就是有其中的一項這個福壽的這個香油"},{"start":10190.773,"end":10194.015,"text":"福壽的香油 中聯提供給福壽我們是採購了 104桶我們現在在全面回收之後我們發覺已經有56桶被使用"},{"start":10206.3,"end":10221.073,"text":"已經有56桶被使用了所以大概就是大概就是我們買的有一半是回收掉了就是一半是差不多全部回收那回收完後有發覺有56桶已經用了你吃掉的不能算全部回收啊"},{"start":10221.593,"end":10249.566,"text":"我的意思是說他的意思是說56桶被用對對對對對對就是我們還能夠回收回去的大概就是佔4到5成左右嘛差不多是這樣子好那我想請問一下齁那這個104桶主要還是吃下肚的這個為主啦因為你已經把風險排除掉的話那當然就OK嘛但是因為剛剛已經看到大概有4成左右是已經吃下肚的那我想問一下喔這個油啊我們在"},{"start":10250.886,"end":10276.554,"text":"這個油我們有沒有去調查說它的分佈縣市的 它是平均的分佈還是有集中在一個影區不然我也有 我們現在查完北部跟南部的復工站有進這個油品中部及外離島都沒有OK 所以北部跟南部那那個總共有29個伙食團有採購29個伙食團是那所以北部的話就是在北北 基桃這樣子都有是嗎"},{"start":10277.014,"end":10291.708,"text":"北部有五個單位有採購這個油門你可不可以把那個單位都能夠詳細給大家 沒問題 改組之後提供給好 那你再提供給我那細節的部分再提供給我因為這個數據我想是很重要必須要揭露給大家的好 那但是呢"},{"start":10292.799,"end":10320.751,"text":"我們要講就是因為你們在7月2號就開始做處置不過因為到請問一下你們現在這個下架其實送驗是包含因為政策其實反反覆覆的包含那個20%以下的你們也是7月2號就已經全部處理了吧就是說我們下架就是說下架的不是只有那一個批號的那一個而是下架它公告的這些"},{"start":10322.554,"end":10322.574,"text":"六個"},{"start":10323.678,"end":10352.326,"text":"就是說這個有關這個廠商跟商品的這個史無一不管是不是同批號的都下架這樣子是但是因為那你們是怎麼掌握的那個名單跟品項就是按照最早食藥署公布的我們他只要公布的品項我們就下架然後去核對他後來確認的批號我們就知道所以我們沒有因為有沒有百分之二十的含量的這個事情有受到任何的影響是嗎"},{"start":10353.564,"end":10357.337,"text":"沒有目前沒有OK好那好那因為"},{"start":10358.496,"end":10387.433,"text":"好這樣我了解了因為這個既然我們已經是在這個北部跟南部我們未來會也會去求償嗎在這個部分我想這個部分我們就按照法律跟合約的規範來處理所以我們現在評估是怎麼樣會去求償嗎因為像有一些民眾他們可能有採購到相關的那現在各縣市政府他們也都開始就是說要求廠商你要有這個我推貨給你然後你的這個賠償嘛等等的那我們因為"},{"start":10387.853,"end":10409.406,"text":"也有就是除了我退回去的之外然後也有已經持下去的那我們未來在這部分的這個法律跟追償的處理我們有沒有做相關的對應跟思考了我們現在會來檢討一下相關的法律跟合約的規定因為那像我們另外有福利處的部分他們有一些也就有退貨了福利處的部分可以再說明一下嗎"},{"start":10409.986,"end":10428.826,"text":"福利署的部分他也是在7月1號就配合食藥署跟那個將相關的商品下架那同時他有一個退貨的機制也就是說官兵或眷屬他們如果有去買的話那都可以辦理退貨那福利署怎麼會沒有涉及到這個20%以下產品的因為這個20%是昨天才取消的規定啊"},{"start":10431.127,"end":10447.036,"text":"7月1號是先救油品的部分那接下來有關都是根據食藥署的規範會再做所以你剛剛告訴我說20%的產品的這個部分沒有辦法復工站沒有復工站是ok的因為你們是採購油的這個源頭的部分去處理但是現在就是還有福利處的部分"},{"start":10455.481,"end":10483.506,"text":"所以可不可以針對福利處的部分再積極說明一下說我們針對福利處的就是這個20%的產品下架是從昨天開始處理的 是嗎跟委員說明我是政戰局的副局長我們在7月1號依據衛福部所公告的所有的產品我們都先封存下架我們也提供所有的官兵跟眷屬去採購的人員去可以做退貨的機制"},{"start":10484.966,"end":10499.612,"text":"但是因為它的品項其實有調整嘛就是從本來就是200多然後後面又到現在是300多了嘛像有的產品我自己看就是在民間的那本來前一天也沒出現今天出現就它每天是變動的嘛"},{"start":10500.492,"end":10529.063,"text":"他只要有公告的我們就是會下架所以你是按照他公告的時間點去做處理那就會有一部分應該是在昨天的時候才就是昨天因為這個20%的這個規定他就因為我們像因為你剛剛有講說在北部跟南部嘛可是像以我們台北市的規定其實就是不管你是不是20%的你只要是有牽涉到這個中聯油脂相關的產品都要下架"},{"start":10529.363,"end":10546.408,"text":"委員剛剛講的那個一個是護工沒有沒有我現在沒有在講護工護工我釐清了我們現在是在講福利處因為它是已經做好的產品嘛所以它裡面會有牽涉到那個是不是有百分之二十的這個問題嘛然後會牽涉到因為政策中間有做改變所以"},{"start":10547.308,"end":10573.366,"text":"昨天公布了一大批那所以就是說等於是比較新的然後這中間還有牽涉到像地方政府對這個事情態度其實跟中央是比較不一致就是地方政府的感受就是說今天我不管是不是你們當初講的20%那這個20%會否因為他自己有說法我們不用管他我只是說像以北部來講的話我們一開始就是強調說只要有牽涉到這個郵品相關的那全部都要下架"},{"start":10573.766,"end":10595.868,"text":"但是我要問的是說我們即便是在北部但是我們在福利處的部分也是按照這個中央的規定這個20%的是一直到昨天才啟動下架還是我們其實是先前就無論如何只要有碰到的就全部處理了我們從7月1號開始只要衛福部有公告的這些產品我們都下架再提供給已經採購的人員做退貨機制"},{"start":10598.41,"end":10613.198,"text":"對 我剛剛有聽懂了嘛我的意思是在針對那個就是因為他的因為我這邊再多描述一下好了因為這個是衛福部的這個規定所以我並不責怪你們因為是他規定不是很清楚他的公佈的"},{"start":10614.338,"end":10633.838,"text":"跟大家就是外界所公布的这个品项那基本上呢有一部分就是你们福利处才会碰到的这个我们公货站是不会有那就是针对已经做好的这个商品嘛那他是说如果里面的含量没有占油的含量没有占到20%的话是可以不用下架的"},{"start":10634.218,"end":10653.854,"text":"那一直到昨天下午的時候才說只要有碰到的全部都要下架這是昨天的新的政策所以我要問的就是說我們福利處的部分是不是也是根據昨天才公布的這個新政策去做的處置我們只要是他有公告我們就全部下架"},{"start":10655.285,"end":10682.71,"text":"他有沒有不包含有沒有20%的部分只要他是有公告給產品沒有下架你沒有聽到我意思他就是20%的他才有他才有對外公佈啊所以我們沒有我們沒有額外的機制就是完全是看他們的請說請說像委員報告昨天公告的232項我們都沒有進你們都沒有進這樣講就對了嘛因為也不見得你們都會有進貨這個就是要這就是要去查嘛好所以說"},{"start":10684.008,"end":10702.018,"text":"好所以說這個部分的話那我希望後續能夠有相關的這個法律跟究責的規定那好那最後有一個小的就是關於小的你們三位可以先回去就是有關於這個教昭制度的部分那這邊也要跟部長澄清一下"},{"start":10702.478,"end":10722.183,"text":"就是呢教昭當然我是支持的改革後備制度增加教昭天數那也提升了這個教訓量能但是實際上我們遇到一個情況就是很多人跟我們反映人招進來了但是教室餐廳寢室呢都是不夠的你可以看一下這一個人家寫的"},{"start":10723.143,"end":10737.959,"text":"那我們看那個黑色重點就是說像這個有人就提到說呢他們教招的時候人太多教室坐不下分兩批上課然後呢還有就是可能他們使用的一些這個你看"},{"start":10740.06,"end":10764.732,"text":"裝備團亂然後集合以後又因為主觀有形成延後然後大家再回寢室所以吃飯教室甚至坐不下所有的人大家就拿著便當盒然後再回寢室吃飯這個是一個問題另外一個問題我一次講完再請這個部長說明一下另外他們在叫招的時候使用的是這個"},{"start":10767.32,"end":10794.54,"text":"6K1那這個我不太確定說現在我們部隊都用T勾腰了那後備是不是用6K2是用6K1的原因是什麼所以說是不是因為時間不太充足是不是可以簡要說明一下在我們提升較高量能的同時那場地的不夠不充足還有我們的設備不夠先進那這樣的狀況我們打算如何處理"},{"start":10796.178,"end":10814.397,"text":"如果是部隊的話應該都是在戰術位置來進行教召所以有關這個講教室這個是哪個單位的教召這個部分我們是不是能夠再了解一下那至於這個他在中松植部5月9號到22號14天的"},{"start":10817.281,"end":10842.459,"text":"那這個部分可能我們再了解一下這個既然是屬於松子部那松子部的是什麼單位來做這個教招因為你原則上你提升教招的人次那你原本空間區就是有可能會不夠大你的量能提高了嘛但你的場地沒有變多啊所以你不夠就是在他這個陳情的人次他是松子部但是他不見得說以後只會發生在松子部你可能要全面一點看"},{"start":10845.472,"end":10857.591,"text":"對,如果委員講說這個單位是在松子部的話,那我想我們要下去了解一下松子部的那個叫召的那個單位到底是做什麼樣的叫召,這個可能要了解,空軍看是不是能夠"},{"start":10859.99,"end":10880.891,"text":"這個部分我們會下去再檢討 招援的部分那一天確實是有些混亂的狀況那這個部分我們下去會再檢討因為我時間不夠了 我在這邊也是強調 我只是舉這個當案例因為有具體的陳情項目跟比較具體的事件跟說明但是既然我們提高了這整體的招訊的量能"},{"start":10881.411,"end":10908.023,"text":"那我們就可能碰到會有教室或是一些場地不夠的問題然後還有設備的部分那如果說我們還是用很老舊的這個設備那到底能不能符合我們戰時的需求這點可能也要去做考量我們最後就想回覆空軍一般的教召他不像陸軍陸軍都是在做這些部隊的一個教召空軍的部分都是高震能力所以他會採教召的這個單位的性質我們可能要"},{"start":10908.903,"end":10912.947,"text":"因為你們就是在第四天訓練的時候就有打靶嘛所以你打靶的時候整個營都拉到宜蘭之後然後才發現說我們根本沒帶彈夾"},{"start":10934.125,"end":10953.199,"text":"管理上確實有些混亂我們在檢討因為早上去的人打完靶了他把所有裝備帶回來那他應該把彈匣留在原地結果他把彈匣帶回來下午去的人也沒確實的清查結果沒有帶彈匣因為彈匣應該是留在原地所以說造成了那一批受影響的人沒有打到靶這個我們有檢討了"},{"start":10955.96,"end":10977.807,"text":"因為時間的關係我最後簡單做一個結論就是說這是一個案例然後呢有具體的澄清但是我們也不是只要空軍去檢討而是我們是不是開始做這個增加量的教教之後所有可能會發生的一些系統性上的問題都一併的去做一個盤整好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝我們接下來請牛許廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":10988.877,"end":10990.84,"text":"謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長部長我們今天討論這個"},{"start":11004.901,"end":11023.4,"text":"少子化衝擊有關於國軍人力配比的一個狀況那按照國防部今天提供的這個相關的報告內容現在招募工作依然非常的艱困那當然有改善內部管理放寬入營條件跟改善薪資待遇有三個大方向今天分別由這三個大方向延伸一些題目來跟部長做一些探討"},{"start":11024.421,"end":11049.453,"text":"這個我們當然都希望這個狀況能夠趕快的緩解來強化國防的戰力畢竟我們花了非常多的資源去構置了非常多先進的武器但是如果沒有好的人才專業的人力來做操作的話那戰力畢竟還是會打折的所以我們就先從大家最關心的薪資待遇開始來談現在這個當然國防部的官方說法我們聽很多次了就是說你們自己經過完整設計的各式各樣的加薪已經非常的有效"},{"start":11050.313,"end":11065.647,"text":"但是立法院通過的法案就是立法院通過的法案這個總統府公告施行新修正的軍人待遇條例已經有一年一個月是在2025年的6月就已經公告當初我提醒一下行政院並沒有附議也同意也附屬啦所以照理來講你本來就應該依法執行"},{"start":11066.508,"end":11085.658,"text":"當然就是因為沒有依法編列預算才導致了後面的總預算的各種衝突但我們這邊就不再贅述不過我今天要問一個問題就是說當初大家在討論這件事情的時候卓榮泰院長曾經在大院的總質詢的時候有答覆就是說他們認為這個行政院行政團隊認為這個事情是有問題的所以他們要釋憲他們說要說釋憲的結果啊這出來之後"},{"start":11089.1,"end":11105.514,"text":"這個合憲那他當然就要依法來執行這個法案沒有辦法如期處理他也要依法來這個做補償啊換言之啊這補償是很有可能會發生的這我第一個要問部長的問題這如果要按照這個依法編列補償的話每年要多花多少錢"},{"start":11107.032,"end":11130.552,"text":"首先我跟委員報告,這個總議院當時在互委的時候,朝野有做一個協商結論,就是說行政院會半年之內要有個給大家一個交代所以行政院現在當然會提出一個軍公教一體加薪的方案之外那麼國防部的部分會就加級的部分做整體的檢討,那正在跟人事總處再做一個整體的檢討就以我們現在要考量的是任務繁重的什麼專業特性等等"},{"start":11131.733,"end":11145.201,"text":"那尤其特別一些邊縣比比較低的那要怎麼做處置那還有這一個加級的種類這部分我們再跟人事總書做檢討我們這整個案子會跟人事總書取得共識之後會提出來這樣子"},{"start":11147.984,"end":11170.928,"text":"到底提不提得出來最後會不會通過這是另外一回事嘛對不對但問題就是說按照本來應該通過的軍人加薪這個相關的這個配套軍人待遇條例的一個修正所以我們要簡單的算一下這個如果國軍人數抓20萬人對不對如果加薪1萬塊來講其實每一年大概就有20億的所謂的財務缺口或者說你當然應該依法補上這我想立法院會非常支持提升相關的一些人士的待遇"},{"start":11171.508,"end":11185.137,"text":"那但我的意思是說這個東西延宕一天啦這個缺口就會變得更大嘛你如果依法執行這一段時間就已經該處理就處理就不會有這個缺口的問題了嘛但問題是說如果這個拖了一年兩年三年之後最後突然就決定合憲我要全數補償的話"},{"start":11186.798,"end":11213.366,"text":"那國防部有沒有相關的餘裕來做因應它就會是個問題嘛因為你該補的薪資要補了嘛所以大家都很關心這事到底會怎麼走那院長講說要釋憲好問題來了這個我們查了一下後來發現一件很奇怪的事這我還跟國防部在會前的時候我們還照理做一下確認國防部掛保證他說這個東西已經送出去了我們還特別去跟行政院跟司法院都做了確認確實啊行政院已經在當初就提了這個釋憲案但問題是司法院到現在沒有受理啊部長知道這件事嗎"},{"start":11214.461,"end":11234.836,"text":"我想憲政院的,不,那個憲法法院的那個他受,他納案之後,他會先做一個決定要不要進入實體的還是在程序上的,所以他這個是他的程序問題他納案之後,屬於如果他認為沒有涉及他應該要進行釋憲的話,他會做一個不受理的裁決,那如果他納入實體的要"},{"start":11236.677,"end":11261.883,"text":"進入做實體的決定的時候呢他再進入所以他這個是一個程序問題就行政院來講他是送出去那司法院他當然他他後續怎麼處理這是按照司法院的大法官的審理案件處理法來處理這我就很擔心啦這當然你可以一推二六五講說這是司法院的事情司法院可以開所謂的審查庭嘛開個審查庭決定是否要受理這樣的一個案件但就我們目前所掌握到的資訊司法院講說我們還沒有決定要不要受理要不要開這個審查庭"},{"start":11262.823,"end":11284.391,"text":"拖一年多了這個是從八月還沒有到快要一年從去年八月行政院院長在議事堂承諾說這個東西要透過釋憲的手段來處理到現在已經接近一年的時間到現在你連受理都還沒有受理這是個大問題部長你也有一定的法律的專業他可以這樣子一直不受理下去嗎有意的要擱置這件事情嗎"},{"start":11285.662,"end":11293.869,"text":"我想施瓦因大法官他們獨立行使職權那有關於他這個整個程序的部分要由施瓦因來做回應"},{"start":11296.502,"end":11325.902,"text":"我是很擔心啦因為這個事情很明顯嘛這大家如果有一點基本上從這個法理的角度來講因為這個過程中政府顯然沒有表達任何反對意見所以你真的要受理要釋憲的時候恐怕到時候大家按照常理來說他恐怕是合憲那合憲之後你就面對要執行的問題所以他戰術性的不處理這件事情但問題是這樣子對我們這麼辛苦這麼多的國軍弟兄有所期待是合理的嗎部長回到國防部長的本位嘛幫著我們軍人的這個弟兄討一討更好的待遇跟公道難道不對嗎部長"},{"start":11327.082,"end":11351.652,"text":"國防部的立場還是會持續就這個來檢討這個薪資待遇的結構啦你要不要跟司法院喊喊話 請他們趕快處理啊這既然你行政院決定要用這麼麻煩的方式處理 那你就喊喊話好不好我們國防部立場就兩個第一個我們會持續調整這個薪資的待遇結構那第二個就是說我們會依照這個任務繁重的程度還有這個專業的特性"},{"start":11353.573,"end":11379.218,"text":"我們來持續檢討各項的勤務加急的指令對像總列跟巴給的進行因為我們認為有一些邊線比已經高的那有一些邊線比比較低的我們要提供比較多的誘因給邊線比比較低的部分這樣子這是我們的一項我們來持續檢討而且我們真的是有在跟人種進行這個檢討然後我們如果等到有個具體結論再跟委員報告這樣子"},{"start":11380.038,"end":11407.633,"text":"你做說明嘛 你做說明 你說明過我知道啊那你要不要跟司法院喊喊話嘛沒有 這個司法院 我想司法院他我們已經 行政已經送案進去了司法院的他的程序處理這個是由司法院大法官們他們在做獨立的一個審理我也不多為難你啊 但大家反正留下紀錄嘛我們是希望 我是很樂意跟司法院喊喊 你趕快處理嘛能處理不能處理 給大家一個交代嘛 對不對好 我還有其他 因為今天時間比較有限還有另外一個題目 這有關於職場"},{"start":11409.814,"end":11425.704,"text":"的這個狀況現在我們國軍裡面這個女性服役這個比例大概是17%左右它其實是跟世界各國來講它是一個對齊的狀態我們都非常非常尊敬身為女性還願意投入軍旅的這樣的人我們是抱持高度尊敬的但本期的了解"},{"start":11426.324,"end":11441.534,"text":"這個在這個第一線的這個現場啊他有一些不成文的規定或者說一些都市傳說這比如說啊那這個既然是不成文的規定就是有一些單位會這樣做有一些單位不會這樣做比如說他有講啊這個因為畢竟男女有別啊"},{"start":11441.954,"end":11467.827,"text":"所以有一些狀況他就做一些特殊的安排比如說戰哨反正單人哨男生就自己去戰哨這大家都了解這件事可是如果是女性輪值等等的話他可能要求說我一定要兩個人啊或者是說他哪些地方不用站等等他會出現一定的一些差別待遇我認為有這樣的一些思維不見得是一件壞事這是一個矛盾的地方所謂矛盾的地方在於就是說"},{"start":11468.627,"end":11495.689,"text":"就是說今天我們如果希望可以招募更多的這個女性願意重居的人我們改善他的待遇就因應大家的體能狀況等等做一些合理的差別待遇這並沒有不對的反而是用這樣子營造一個相對友善的一個環境這是一個可以思考的一個方向但同時他出現矛盾的地方在哪裡比如說我以戰哨為例啊這本來單人哨我一個人可以解決的事情那因為我要做特殊的安排我變成兩個人然後有一些單位在處理這件事他反而很麻煩啦這因為是這樣然後我反而要配兩個人"},{"start":11496.329,"end":11519.141,"text":"對我人力的調度我反而產生更大的壓力跟缺口那麼在面對這樣子一個兩難困境的時候國防部是怎麼取捨的呢這個你先針對了這有沒有這樣的一個狀況有些單位有一些潛規則有一些單位沒有那部長了不了解這件事情這先做一下說明相關的這個尤其是越基層的來做補充說明都很好大家把問題提出來好好解決第二個是我剛剛提的這個兩難困境國防部打算怎麼處理勒"},{"start":11519.801,"end":11537.842,"text":"我想就女性的這個對女性營造一個友善的環境是我們應該要做的但是就情務的這個部分的話我想男女既然都在同一個單位服役的話然後情務的分配當然就按照這應該有的情務分配來進行分配那至於委員如果有提有一些"},{"start":11541.245,"end":11554.113,"text":"說潛規則這一類的我想我們下去再了解一下好 這請我給國防部一點時間去了解一下這樣狀況因為有些是比較基層他可能說還有食物考量我也怕出事 安全考量我認為起心動念都是好的 都是好的但是"},{"start":11554.893,"end":11583.267,"text":"我覺得這個是個價值取捨的問題今天部長講今天女性願意從軍她完全在體能戰技能力上她其實跟男性不相上下所以要負擔相同的起舞我認為這個思維也是正確的所以它其實不是一個絕對對錯的問題但是如果國防部做了一定的價值判斷之後我是希望它能夠做完整的貫徹我擔心的是一個部隊裡面有不一樣的規制然後不一樣的考量然後造成一些差別的狀況這個反而是要避免的所以希望我給部裡面一點時間大概一個月的時間你們做一下調查吧"},{"start":11583.687,"end":11600.669,"text":"有沒有這樣的一些狀況如果有的話我要用什麼樣的規定來同意來做綠定讓這件事情明確化它既可以兼顧比如友善職場又可以確保人力調度這本來做一下提醒你這樣才是改善整體環境讓這個東西更有憑有據嘛 部長一個月時間提供一些相關的說明跟報告是可以的嗎"},{"start":11601.121,"end":11630.324,"text":"可以可以 我們來了解一下有沒有這樣的一個狀況存在最後一個是有關於行政減壓的部分這我們大家都講這也是我私底下的明察暗訪做田野調查有一些已經離開軍旅的做到軍官層級的人就吐過苦水吐過苦水是什麼呢他說到了軍官層級常常在做一件事情叫做投影片你看我們資訊投影片做三張對不對他們上次做這個投影片經典案例也是漢光演習的檢討"},{"start":11631.244,"end":11648.551,"text":"三百張投影片這他本來就有例行性的一個勤務嘛那些軍官等等他有例行性的一個勤務該督導要督導早上七點半起床等等一路工作然後晚上加班啦就處理這些各個單位交辦的會整的投影片要放在長官桌上做報告的"},{"start":11649.071,"end":11671.819,"text":"那做報告常常做到兩點三點其實就是過勞一個狀況那兩三百頁的投影片這部長你也是明白的對吧這恐怕大家不見得會詳細閱讀吧那它是不是變相形成了一個無效而繁重的文書作業我當然理解你軍旅裡面要求慎重要求詳實要求完整這種是好的但同樣我會提醒一下這做一下平衡吧"},{"start":11672.159,"end":11699.854,"text":"因為這個東西它其實造成了另外一種隱形的職場壓力啊對不對其實很多東西它現在其實是很進步的我們的這個尤其是可以在軍中裡面啊這個做到高層的那腦袋一定清楚的嘛組織能力一定非常好抓重點一定沒有問題的嘛所以這相關來講那些行政的文書也好啊作業也好哪一些東西是可以好好精簡的就像我們那次弟兄因為這個難免層層交辦結果大家都在搞這件事情對不對那不是挺可惜的嗎對不對這不沒辦法回應一下有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":11701.21,"end":11726.856,"text":"委員你好 我是朱徐市長針對剛剛委員所講的我們目前在國防部裡面還有針對作戰成績可能是剛剛您講的部分可能在作戰成績的部分那我們現在也主持要求我們各一級單位跟您委員剛剛所報告一樣我們都是要求他們現在開始把相關的這個業務精簡那針對這個投影片的部分我們就我們部裡面來講沒有那麼也沒那麼多 很多都是十幾月二十幾月就可以完成的真的嗎會再下去要求"},{"start":11727.936,"end":11755.404,"text":"我舉個例子啦本席剛來國防外交委員會我們先去了一趟松子部松子部那天非常認真這我不是要罵他的意思我讚美他很認真但他認真他那天報告松子相關出入信五十幾頁所以不會只有二三十頁啦這個請你們部裡面再去了解一下所以我是講求慎重起心動也都是好的但我都覺得大家其實可以用更簡單的方式來做處理這只是善意的提醒啦那這個以前在2020年前後其實就已經推動過所謂"},{"start":11756.784,"end":11784.413,"text":"這個業務精簡這個任務那這大家既然要做這個事就核心我很怕為了如何做業務精簡大家又要來寫一百頁的投影片那就太糟糕了好不好這請部裡面一樣這我給你一點時間你稍微去做一下了解我們哪些地方可以做一下精簡的而讓我們的基層弟兄可以花更多的時間在專業能力的培訓啊戰技術的提升啊等等方面其實我覺得這才是社會大眾期待國軍弟兄應該扮演的角色啦那能夠省下來的力量我們就把它省下來好不好部長這可不可以做一下這個調查跟了解"},{"start":11784.893,"end":11803.626,"text":"是是,我想剛剛委員說得好,我們不應該說為了要業務精簡而再去花很多心力再去調查,如何做業務精簡。所以我剛剛講,我想我們會來,適切的來了解怎麼樣子來進行進一步的業務精簡,因為當然我上任的時候也有做一些宣示,"},{"start":11804.022,"end":11824.594,"text":"那進一步後續要怎麼樣子然後不會再為了業務經驗而去相反的過來去增加不管是這個女性這個軍事官的這個勤務部分或者是業務經驗部分都善意提醒也都願意給你國防部時間但我們就一起把環境做好這樣才能從不同的面向去改善這個人力不足的問題好不好希望部長多多費心謝謝好 謝謝接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":11841.267,"end":11846.692,"text":"主席財長委員先進 列席政務機關組長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11854.705,"end":11872.591,"text":"是 總委部長齁陳錫剛你委員說的檢報不要做太多我這次又沒帶檢報了就直接跟您請教還記得上週我跟您就教有關於四個版本包括行政院版國眾兩黨以及我個人的版本這四個版本我做了一個比較對不對我還記得那時候我跟部長說哎呀 這個看起來呢"},{"start":11873.391,"end":11902.591,"text":"行政院的最聚焦在軍備採購國民黨的版本比較完整似乎讓部長誤以為好像我認為國民黨的黨團版比行政院版好應該不會有這樣的誤會吧因為那個是AI做的AI都是只說好話 只說正向但是呢 縱使如此啊到了隔天的院會這版本當中呢我都沒有批評其他黨的版本但是我個人版本就被丟包了部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":11903.855,"end":11927.711,"text":"我有看到新聞那我們今天討論的是少子化的因應對策您覺得一個兵多將廣人口眾多的國家當面對到這種國家我們國家人口不多我們要怎麼樣扭轉這個劣勢烏克蘭是不是做了一個很好的示範烏克蘭他雖然人口叫俄羅斯少但他充分運用無人載具扭轉了這樣一個人口的劣勢是嗎 部長"},{"start":11929.165,"end":11943.924,"text":"我想充分應用一個不對稱的一個作戰的概念是的好那接下來我再回到我們上週五副委的這幾個版本您知道後來行政院版國防採購的部分不是交到國防委員會主審交到經濟委員會主審了您知道嗎是然後還有聯席財政跟經濟"},{"start":11949.158,"end":11958.483,"text":"他交到經濟委員會主審聯席國防跟財政對不對您覺得行政院版沒有交到國防來審查交給經濟委員會來審查雖然我是經濟委員會的委員您覺得"},{"start":11962.661,"end":11982.588,"text":"這樣子會有什麼影響國防部的立場還是希望我們就這個符合作案需求的這幾個特定的採購項目那我們希望國防部來主導這個這個所謂相關的這些近近備戰所需要的這些採購的事項那主管機關是國防部那當然是希望由"},{"start":11983.368,"end":12011.25,"text":"外交管委員會跟財政委員會來聯繫審查而不是有經濟委員會是那我們也不希望是我們的採購條例我們也不希望主管機關是經濟部很好很清楚因為行政院版很清楚的就是為了因應國防採購要動之特別預算所以用特別條例的方式由國防部來做主管機關那麼由國防外交來主審這些軍備的採購那您看過另外的版本國中兩黨的版本嗎"},{"start":12012.293,"end":12037.782,"text":"是你知道他們版本是偏向產業發展是不是我看國民民眾黨版本是沒有提到這些採購的他就安全是產業發展那國民黨的部分他確實有提到一個2400億的部分但是他2400億的部分是說要納入年度預算是那年度預算他又在這個法例裡面直接說列說要編400億"},{"start":12040.583,"end":12054.298,"text":"但是沒有說414要買軍備喔它如果是產業發展的條例它另外有一條是說它那個有三個用途那當然包括說要採購各式的無人載具然後還有一些是為了產業發展的補助然後還有"},{"start":12058.372,"end":12074.831,"text":"場域場域的部分大概他把他全部都包在一起那他的無人載具的暗像也沒有明確是的所以這就是社會也是最大的疑慮今天沒有錯無人載具的發展不管商用民用都是前途可及未來"},{"start":12075.782,"end":12093.29,"text":"可期待但是目前國家最迫切需要的就是透過這樣的國防採購將我們軍備不增身戰力先充實起來那不是如果不是採購國防軍備採購其他的無人載運我們也支持但是輕重緩急要明顯的區隔所以行政院版聚焦在"},{"start":12094.551,"end":12102.079,"text":"特定機型做軍備使用而產業輔導那另外我們經濟部去做產業輔導是另外事情但是國民黨雖然是2400億比較多比2100億多但是年度預算400億寫的項目呢又不限定在軍備採購還包含了很多的產業輔導項目難免會有資源上沒有辦法集中投入的部分"},{"start":12114.973,"end":12143.971,"text":"所以部長那如果再有其他的版本送到院會來你會支持國防採購的版本放在國防外交審查嗎我們我們國防部的立場應該是很清楚就是我們透過這個行政院提出的這個特別條例我們是基於我們的作戰需求所以我們採購的這個項目已經特定也就是我們濱海健身型的無人機濱海攻擊型無人機跟小型炸無人艇這個是在這個我們整個防衛作戰"},{"start":12144.511,"end":12170.448,"text":"需求上面 迫切需要的那我們希望建立一個飛鴻供應鏈的韌性那所以呢 這些項目 擺進來這些項目都是屬於國內可以自主來承置的那這樣子的自主承置我們產生一個飛鴻供應鏈一個健康的一個產業鏈那就可以在一旦任何狀況的時候呢我們都可以有一定的作戰韌性很好 其實我覺得我跟部長的想法相當一致啊"},{"start":12170.928,"end":12188.865,"text":"因為雖然上週呢你好像對我剛的描述有些誤會那高層說中央病院委員你怎麼會認為行政院版的不如國民黨版的沒有我現在告訴你這些想法我給一個我再一個機會我現在把行政院版就是您說的國防採購我再加上了原來我的版本當中產業扶老部分"},{"start":12189.44,"end":12197.445,"text":"放到我的新的版本當中而且主管機關就是國防部但是涉及到產業輔導部分另外由行政院成立一個委員會來輔導那我們裡面的預算完全用行政院版2100萬的特別預算而且項目就在這幾項"},{"start":12209.133,"end":12233.987,"text":"就是把國防部的解釋上列入我們優先採購的對象那至於行政院的那個委員會要做產業輔導的要空域海域的劃定要一些法令的鬆綁那是屬於不太需要預算投注的投注去採購的部分來做產業輔導那未來我們像這個版本我也是希望院會支持交付委員會審查的時候是放到外交國防頂多是聯席經濟或者財政來審查"},{"start":12236.328,"end":12264.972,"text":"那這樣子呢就可以幫忙行政院版現在被交到經濟主審了那我希望呢類似的版本部長願不願意回去參考一下我提供一份給您那我們努力的讓他交付給國防委員會來審查好不好報告委員我覺得兩件事情還是要分開我們的採購條例我們的採購是國防部主管的機關那我們就是採購我們合乎我們作戰需求的這個項目產業發展 產業補助或者怎麼樣這個是可能要另外一個條例"},{"start":12265.552,"end":12290.437,"text":"那這個是屬於經濟部主管這兩個要分開來不能夠放在同一個條例裡面那個部長我了解您的用心良苦啦但是你還沒看到我的版本不用這麼早下定論說不定你看我的版本之後發現說中委員在提出新版本呢2100億特別預算通通用在國防部的軍備採購其他產業輔導部分交由行政院的委員會去輔導這樣子說不定也切合國防部的需求委員的主管機關是國防部"},{"start":12292.057,"end":12304.265,"text":"那國安部在這個同時條例裡面國安部要去負責產業發展跟產業補助行政院設一個委員會來我給你看一下行政院應設立無人載具自主發展委員會做這些事情"},{"start":12305.083,"end":12324.248,"text":"所以部長我知道你很辛苦但是委員在提出想要幫忙的時候呢也請你呢可以瞭解一下我們的熱心也是我們的童心那我們希望呢一起來推動好不好是是我想我們再檢視一下委員的版本然後我們再做那個但是我們當然還是我們官部隊還是希望能夠盡速達成我們的採購目的"},{"start":12326.049,"end":12344.04,"text":"沒有問題本條例之主管機關是國防部行政院的委員會負責產業輔導希望部長回去請我們部裡面的同仁研議一下我希望呢不至於在街道高層的關切誤以為說我不支持國防部或行政院的版本我也希望說這樣的版本能夠協助我們國防的採購也能夠協助產業的輔導發展謝謝謝謝部長謝謝委員指教好 謝謝我們接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":12364.435,"end":12367.527,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國安部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12376.778,"end":12391.489,"text":"市委部長你好 我就幾個簡單的問題啦我看省基部對於無人機產業的這個特別是軍用無人機啊他有一些的comment啦比如說其中 我把列舉幾個比較重要他就講你們啦 就打槍你們啦說你們有這個無人機產業園區開發的進度嚴重落後"},{"start":12401.957,"end":12428.106,"text":"他寫的時間我給他算一算 時間最少入侯一年以上這是你怎麼回應一下 審計部的報告無人機產業區 無人機產業園區講的是民雄嗎對 講的是民雄不是講民雄講民雄 講民雄如果是民雄的話 他一切進度都正常他有一部分在民雄 一部分在太保不是嗎"},{"start":12429.161,"end":12440.793,"text":"泰寶不是我們國防部在管的不是國防部這裡面你們去看一下另外一個非市場場域沒有確定這不是你們所以你們一切進度都OK"},{"start":12443.171,"end":12464.061,"text":"不然我們那個場域本來就是我們的地 那個場域都已經決定好了 都沒有問題所以他講的是經濟部 他講的是經濟部 是啊對 因為飛行場域的這個部分我的了解是 我們的部分是這個一件事那有關那個 有關涉及各部會的這個部分 應該是行政院在所以你講的 你說他講的是經濟部 是啊"},{"start":12465.582,"end":12480.757,"text":"是這個意思嗎因為飛行的這個測試的場域然後還有這個海面的測試場域這些跨部會的這個協調的工作這個部分是由行政院在主導好 那麼你說園區都Ready齁你們講一下這個什麼是Ready是讓廠商能夠進駐還是怎麼樣 再講一下"},{"start":12488.075,"end":12508.05,"text":"所以原區的類體是一切按照計畫進度按照原本的計畫進度是118年才開始營運所以今年我們做的是發包施工我們已經按正常進度在五月發包施工那等整個預算通過以後我們就會跟廠商簽約執行預算是多少的預算"},{"start":12509.144,"end":12528.747,"text":"今年只有 全部的預算是68億 今年的預算只有8億囉好 另外喔 另外我請教部長 因為今天你談到人才的問題啊那我就特別PIN POINT 特別鎖定在 或者FOCUS在 這個無人機相關的人才"},{"start":12529.758,"end":12542.848,"text":"無人機的相關人才大概你自己有沒有算過國防部哪一位長官可以回答都可以大概缺多少人需要多少人無人機方面相關人才"},{"start":12544.005,"end":12560.359,"text":"包含無人機的部分我們區分成兩大部分一個是大型無人機的部分我們空軍MQ-9B無人機它已經進行接裝之前的完整編組那另外一個是海軍的瑞淵一型就是海上徵收大隊的這個部分"},{"start":12563.641,"end":12583.057,"text":"小型無人機的部分陸軍跟海軍陸戰隊還有憲兵一共編了20個新的單位那這20個新的無人機的單位我們也優先滿足它的編線比跟它的人力需求我跟你們練一段給你聽這是我從一些資料找到的2024年公開的資訊"},{"start":12588.823,"end":12609.768,"text":"我們國軍規劃買三千多架的軍用商規無人機三軍非操守需要兩百一十人二零二五年審計部的報告說他講一百一十四一百一十五年度總共你們欠了一千多人有沒有這回事"},{"start":12611.018,"end":12629.874,"text":"包委員那個是舊的,因為省西部他查的是在前一個年度他的人力的狀況那商規軍用無人機他當初接裝的時候陸軍的無人機訓練指揮部還沒有成立也就我們訓練的那個單位還沒有成立然後陸戰隊的兩個一個火力營一個無人機營也還沒成軍"},{"start":12631.275,"end":12654.141,"text":"現在都成軍了嗎對 那現在我們從去年到今年已經陸續成軍所以如果省紀部明年再來集合我們今年基本上我們的人力是到齊的所以人沒有缺一千人的問題沒有完全沒有 是不是現在那個陸軍剛剛提到二十個單位那現在新編的都是屬於新編母輪機部隊平線邊線比是百分之九十二"},{"start":12655.114,"end":12670.004,"text":"請問你喔那對於無人機的軍用無人機的相關人才待遇有沒有特別給他增加一下無人機我們就是爭取戰鬥部隊的佳績那是叫多少戰鬥部隊一萬一萬二"},{"start":12673.035,"end":12693.095,"text":"就特種加級就對了 是不是我們有戰鬥部隊加級有分成一類二類嘛那現在是有一萬二跟七千那如果他 你再怎麼加就加一萬多你還不如用我們的案子 我們三讀通過呢加三萬的不是更好嗎人來得更多啊 這要改這個人如果輸掉了是不是這樣"},{"start":12695.971,"end":12709.336,"text":"我想我們還是依照任務的程度另外一個或是中科可以回答或是看誰可以回答我們有沒有能力做機械機械狗有沒有機械狗機械狗我們現在跟美國的公司合作正在推展中預計在後年後年國軍會開始量產採購"},{"start":12723.322,"end":12745.211,"text":"後年開始 不不不你說量產跟採購是我們自己做還是要跟美國買我們自己做可以現在沒有現在有了我現在就買了現在是共同在台灣做經過技術授權共同在台灣生產那什麼時候可以第一個出來"},{"start":12746.744,"end":12772.567,"text":"什麼時候出來 已經有公開記者會展示過了所以說已經有了 是我會提供給委員相關的訊息好 量產什麼時候 量產量產要先看作戰單位他給我們的需求同樣一隻機器狗他可以做很多不同的功能所以要看作戰單位的需求定義清楚以後我們才會開始按照他不同的需求來量產不同的類型所以未來就是他們來打仗 是不是這個意思"},{"start":12774.038,"end":12793.417,"text":"不一定是打仗 其實平常有很多任務就可以由機器國來執行包含營區的巡檢和安全維護有沒有算過大概我們的需要量多少了 機器官需要幾台還是什麼的這個可能要由作戰單位他們再來統計相關的需求來 部長你要回答還是來沒有沒有 剛剛回答一樣 我們是必須要統計這個相關的任務"},{"start":12799.006,"end":12825.314,"text":"這個機械狗這一部分有沒有納入你們原來的特別預算無人機隊有沒有納進來有沒有沒有那無人艇呢有沒有納進來無人艇有啊無人艇這一次愛情委員支持我們這2100億裡面就有1000多艘的自殺攻擊無人艇自殺式的攻擊無人艇是是是1000多艘"},{"start":12826.676,"end":12845.066,"text":"內部以後可以自己做不是嗎?我們就是要自己做啊我們現在2100億的 見證型的無人機 攻擊型的無人機跟自殺無人艇 攻擊型的自殺無人艇都是希望在國內能夠自主"},{"start":12845.846,"end":12874.144,"text":"我要提一個很重要的觀念你們現在列的就是兩千一百億國民黨團是兩千四百億不管多少但是你們目標是要買二十一萬架的無人機對不對二十一萬架就無人機的部分無人機是二十一萬架有一個專家告訴我你們現在買的二十一萬架High end只有兩千架左右這就不對"},{"start":12877.092,"end":12898.698,"text":"高階的無人機我想我們無人機大概有分幾型你講的攻擊無人機有沉浸式的有投彈式的還有一個小型跟中型的制造無人艇它各有任務的不同那我想他們都會隨著這個無人載具的一個迭代更新的發展會逐步增強它的各項的能力"},{"start":12899.719,"end":12913.895,"text":"我要跟你講到這個是我得到的資料是海岸的只有2000架左右所以我要強調的是如何無人機的技術升級非常重要比如說我們可以有一個辦法"},{"start":12915.58,"end":12935.014,"text":"我本人就提了這個辦法無人機產業技術升級發展條例給他出稅的誘因給他其他的誘因我們要鼓勵國外的high end的廠商能夠在台灣投資跟我們共同研發把技術留下來等等的我覺得這個事情很值得我們去"},{"start":12936.094,"end":12941.415,"text":"值得我們去努力的啦我剛剛已經回答鍾委員我們當然我們國防部的立場還是說我們在採購的部分有國防部主責的部分還是單純限定在我們無人機的處我們作戰區所無人機採購產業發展產業的補助那是要另外一個條例由經濟部來組合"},{"start":12959.919,"end":12983.088,"text":"所以你不能排除經濟部主導啦因為技術升級是經濟部主導的啦但是這兩個條例最好不要把它扯在一起啊你也看立法技術什麼例啦你也可以一個法裡面有一部是經濟部管有一部是國防部管或者是拆成兩個案子都可以啦不是不行啦這個是立法技術的問題啦這個我們看當中怎麼來看吧好 謝謝"},{"start":12987.625,"end":12999.793,"text":"我們接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢記者主席 楊瓊英發言 首先邀請部長請顧部長是 楊委員"},{"start":13011.156,"end":13025.02,"text":"我們現在關心一個時事議題,也就是中聯油脂爆發的大豆沙拉油驗出了一級的致癌物本評比的超標問題,它的問題油品超過了1300公噸,在4月份的時候就已經製造"},{"start":13033.003,"end":13049.323,"text":"並供應泰山、福壽、福茂等三家公司來使用造成目前由原本政府不願意公開到我們發覺這個問題食安零容忍請教部長食安是不是零容忍請教部長"},{"start":13050.004,"end":13065.139,"text":"所以我們國軍一向很重視食安的問題好 非常好 達成了一個共識 食安領農人所以因此呢 到目前為止從政府不公布 到現在已經公布了300多家那包括了知名的企業 衛權 金色山脈"},{"start":13067.621,"end":13093.635,"text":"我們國防部所屬的福利事業管理處也曾經有進貨這樣的油品引發了食安的疑慮當然國防部在4號的時候就特別表示針對於這一項有疑慮的供售品項你要求在2號的時間要求我們的復工中心要下架以及送驗國境單位"},{"start":13096.016,"end":13112.802,"text":"你們告訴我們說是已經停止使用那請問到目前為止在我們的部隊裡頭還有沒有有沒有徹查清楚還有沒有這些的品項在使用剛剛已經有委員推詢了那我是不是再請後製再說"},{"start":13113.962,"end":13142.725,"text":"委員好 厚知事次長跟委員報告我們經過核對以後我們總共復工中心有29個這種油脂的品項那我們現在核對完之後有一個福壽這個香油它是福壽香油對對對包含品項跟批號那我們已經全面下架了第二個針對有疑慮的六項我們也全面下架第三個部長有要求所以我們現在29項油品全部在7月7號的時候全部送到第三檢驗單位去公正檢驗"},{"start":13143.325,"end":13162.767,"text":"立體檢驗因為衛福部從原先說參了20%以下他不算但是現在已經是髮夾彎只要有的因為只要是致癌物不管他的幾%就是致癌物就是毒啊怎麼可以如此說20%以下呢終於也昨天髮夾彎"},{"start":13163.988,"end":13186.995,"text":"只要有參到的就是要下架所以這個跟原先政府所公佈的這個制度是不一樣的它的品質是不一樣的所以我要責成我們的部長必須要全面的去檢驗因為食安零容忍據聞在剛剛還有一批的批號又出來所以我還是要勉勵我們第一個國軍單位不能用到"},{"start":13192.117,"end":13206.67,"text":"有毒的 有害人體的食用油那本宮要請教 未來你的方向呢因為一變再變 品項也一直在增加請教 你要如何保障我們國軍食安的安全呢"},{"start":13208.083,"end":13220.908,"text":"包委我們依照政府公布的這個相關的資訊公布到哪裡 政策到哪裡 我們就做到哪裡第二個全面檢驗完畢之後確定這個食安無虞我們才會重新上架你剛剛所說的29項去檢驗什麼時候會出來呢預計10個工作天"},{"start":13223.709,"end":13249.486,"text":"十個工作天出來所以這個大家就是還是心驚驚這十個工作天會不會誤噴到了這個大家還是害怕所以我們一定要謹慎因為再次強調食安領龍人好 謝謝那現在我們針對於今天的主題也就是人力的問題那部長我們要說的國軍未來其實我認為最大的危機它不是武器而是沒有足夠的人"},{"start":13254.349,"end":13275.878,"text":"國防安全我們絕對全力支持合理的預算我們全力支持為民眾來把關來監督我們也全力所以在這樣的一個情況之下不管是不對稱的作戰無人機啊飛彈啊你的這個艦艇採購那都需要都需要大量的專業人力來操作那我們現在"},{"start":13277.299,"end":13305.89,"text":"又碰到了少子化 出生人口持續在下降那麼人數越來越少的情況之下我要請教部長喔少子化對國軍造成了衝擊吧請教部長我想跟委員報告 當然面臨少子化我們可真的兵源當然減少那但是我們還是跟委員說明一下一邊是志願役嘛 對不對那這個部分我們要加強招募嘛那一邊還有義務役嘛"},{"start":13306.73,"end":13330.232,"text":"那義務役的部分因為現在延長為一年,那我們的目標就是要將這個義務役要有一個充足的訓練使他能夠具有一個戰力那這樣子的話我想維持住部隊在這個各方面的一個作戰能力透過這個雙軌,也就是志願役跟義務役的雙軌我們希望能夠維持住我們應該有的作戰能力"},{"start":13333.499,"end":13348.654,"text":"你接受這個方案的本席還是有疑慮因為我們特別針對2030年2035年2040年你要怎麼樣完整的一個人力模型剛剛所說的自願意的一個需求義務意的一個需求"},{"start":13350.316,"end":13373.275,"text":"後備動員這股力量也是非常的大還有我們各種這個軍種的缺額的一個預估那你未來你剛才所說的只有把延長義務役的把它延長到一年那這樣的一個情況之下我們國軍的人才政策你們是不是有去盤點要怎麼樣能夠去足夠因為我們延續這個議題的討論在整個義務役的一個招募"},{"start":13377.711,"end":13399.525,"text":"你認為現在的人數是你的理想目標嗎?我們不管是這個五年便利整建計畫,五年這個變裝的這個要太久的變裝,還有甚至包括五年的人力的這個結構我們都是有在做規劃,而且是每一個單位每一個單位在看"},{"start":13401.075,"end":13420.1,"text":"所以那每一個單位也需要做怎麼樣的一個部隊的結構做相應的一個需求那我們要根據這個相應的需求來建置那這個來源的部分那當然就剛剛講了我們志願役的部分還是我們現在的一個主要的一個"},{"start":13420.865,"end":13441.493,"text":"他因為具有長期性還有成熟性有經驗家這個部分作為資源的一個主要是我們的一個主要來源但我們同時也要強化我們的EWE的一個能力那因為EWE有一年期的一個訓練所以他包括從新訓到駐地到基地等等他有一個完整的訓練那我們要維持住他在"},{"start":13442.666,"end":13456.508,"text":"退伍之後然後維持住他在這一個單位能夠原兵歸原位然後維持住他透過教導能夠維持住他的能力所以整個這個這個部隊的能力的一個"},{"start":13457.385,"end":13482.338,"text":"調整都是做一個長期的規劃做一個長期的規劃我們現在面臨到自願役的招募你剛才沒有回答本席的提問因為現在大家在搶人不管是待遇工作環境升遷制度退伍出入還是勤務的負擔這些是不是都影響到你的這個自願役的一個招募條件"},{"start":13483.28,"end":13510.898,"text":"是不是我們在報告裡面也提到了就是說我們現在這個進來的這個執行的成果來看的話我們包括一些人性化的管理措施跟優化住戶環境還有各項的這些其他福利待遇也包括了提高薪資待遇等等我們會維持住我們志願役的一個招募的一個目標也就是說剛剛有提到"},{"start":13514.001,"end":13531.194,"text":"你有那個目標當然是需求啊但是你實際上根據我們的需求會定出一個目標對啊你實際上需求你才會有一個目標嘛但是在你執行的過程你的達成率呢我們達成率照去年這樣看起來應該都是有達成"},{"start":13532.236,"end":13559.226,"text":"請教部長現在我們哪些軍種最缺哪些專長最缺現在目前為止我們現在整個來看以邊線筆來講的話當然還是主戰部隊這個的邊線筆比較低所以這個部分是我們應該要將我們主戰部隊的這個邊線筆要能夠拉伸這是我們主戰部隊的邊線筆嘛是是所以他還是沒有他還是缺嘛特別是北部地區的對啊那這怎麼辦呢"},{"start":13560.698,"end":13583.355,"text":"你要怎麼樣去調整呢?你有那個目標要達成啊那你也知道問題缺在哪裡啊那你怎麼辦呢?所以我們已經根據這個相關的這些組戰部隊的一些邊線比比較低的當然剛剛除了提到要提高他的整個加入這個誘因之外那另外我們透過這些他們的應該要獲得"},{"start":13586.112,"end":13611.305,"text":"怎麼樣具備一個基本的戰力的這個部分我們提高的誘因你們準備要提高哪些誘因因為少子化不是明天的問題是現在進行式的事情那當然就是說 應該提高什麼誘因呢包括這個戰鬥部隊的加級等等然後還有我們在報告也提到了現在明年開始大戰畢業的這個EVE他會明年他畢業會從"},{"start":13613.107,"end":13627.358,"text":"會加入這個EWE的行列那就這個部分的話我們如果他願意加入自願選擇戰鬥部隊的話他就可以加領戰鬥部隊的家籍剛剛說的誘因到底要怎麼樣誘因這是實質的問題因為"},{"start":13630.16,"end":13647.355,"text":"不管是企業界、科技業等相關單位都在搶人所以我們到底我們國防部相關的軍種你要怎麼樣去提升剛剛我們說的誘因我們所提出來的政策這麼好你可以去執行啊條件好當然人家願意啊所以你的誘因"},{"start":13648.516,"end":13674.246,"text":"包括了你的墨冰的改革流營的制度AI的替代後備的一個整建以及你長期的規劃這很重要特別在幽陰的部分我也希望你盤點書面資料給本席剛剛委員提到這幾點都是我們應該陸力以赴的我想贊同陸力以赴你也贊同我要謝謝你但是你把方案還是要拿出來謝謝謝謝委員指教"},{"start":13677.182,"end":13686.384,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝楊委員接下來請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":13706.942,"end":13732.594,"text":"請部長 請顧部長是 陳委員部長好 部長前幾天我們一樣國防外交委員會有提到這個毒品網路的蔓延的議題那我們想要就接續來講下去因為上次的話只有這個縣指部有人來那我們覺得這個是一個結構性的問題那其實已經"},{"start":13736.533,"end":13756.465,"text":"不僅僅是在軍中我想在社會上都有這樣的狀況不過我還是要提醒一下這個外島的這個狀況外島的狀況我們辦公室的助理他其實幾年前在這個馬祖福軍事的訓練役的時候那他們的連隊上面其實有一些林兵"},{"start":13757.205,"end":13773.417,"text":"要到退伍前那才到馬祖部隊來去報到那疑問之下是因為他自己本來在成功林就是在興訓的時候就已經被查到用藥了那所以那時候我的注意就很好奇的問那個林兵說為什麼你還要我這麼"},{"start":13775.486,"end":13793.892,"text":"這個明明吸毒又吸毒可是某種程度怎麼又要跑去外島你是又愛國然後又但是想要還彌補的心態還是怎麼樣結果他說沒有啦因為到了馬祖齁可以透過小山通更方便更快速的得到毒品貨源他就可以繼續在軍中來去發展組織"},{"start":13796.553,"end":13813.522,"text":"那我想這個是一個他們在基層遇到的這個真實故事所以說我們很擔心因為中國我們就不用去特別去猜測啦但是原則上他們任何能夠讓我國國軍衰弱的手段我相信他們都會去努力的去嘗試去做"},{"start":13814.622,"end":13820.528,"text":"我想請教一下像類似這種用小三通去建立這種毒品的這種供應有沒有聽過類似的狀況那類似的狀況有沒有一些作為來去反制"},{"start":13830.72,"end":13857.816,"text":"向委員報告目前我們營區在毒品防治方面是一個零容忍那除了入營前入營收休收假入營的檢查然後包含到驗尿然後這個氣毒犬的查驗之外我們是不分任何的階級職務我也老實跟委員說明連我是陸軍新部參謀長我在上個月都還接受驗尿那我們的幕僚也都是一樣"},{"start":13858.576,"end":13876.838,"text":"那目前我們在營區自行查獲吸入包含到這個一坨米子的案例那目前我們沒有掌握到目前沒有查獲到外島有官兵吸入的狀況所以我對於委員所說的透過小三通的方式來"},{"start":13878.44,"end":13898.014,"text":"進入營區的這個目前沒有這樣的案例那如果委員有詳細的資料我們可以做了解接下來就是在接下來的時候我們就把相關的情節再跟你們講過去有這樣的事情發生那接下來這個問題就是在這邊就是這是一個為什麼他聽到了沒有講沒有在第一時間來跟長官講"},{"start":13899.855,"end":13916.732,"text":"其實在軍中當然不只是在軍中其實在這種團體的活動或者是在一個團體要一起留宿的這種狀況之下通常都不會主動的來去上報因為要再念他的同袍關係又擔心有可能會報復所以"},{"start":13919.134,"end":13937.188,"text":"總是會有想要大事化小 小事化無這個狀況是都可以理解但是這個東西它如果是結構性的問題就是我們剛剛上次我們提到說要這個克責但是我們克責的機制之路也不是無限上綱也就是說哪些是偶發的危機偶發的危機我怎麼"},{"start":13938.249,"end":13954.517,"text":"我們就是有一個 這就是小社會嘛這個社會裡面就是會有一些吸毒的 煙毒犯 暴力犯他還是要服義務役嘛 他還是會進來軍隊嘛那這些人我們總不能說因為他進來 他過去的習慣帶到軍中我就要去懲治他的管理階層的這些軍官這會導致這個管理階層過度頻繁的來去換將或者換主官 對"},{"start":13963.021,"end":13983.777,"text":"但如果是單位性的結構犯罪那就不一樣囉那就表示你的管理狀況是不對的所以我們要把它分清楚才不會無限度的究責讓這些反而想要負責任的人不敢去做所以單位結構性犯罪的督導界線就是要講得很清楚很明瞭就是說如果你是排長你的班長"},{"start":13984.958,"end":14008.103,"text":"跑去這個查到這個部分的這些士兵那有這個吸食的狀況甚至還有販賣的狀況那不但沒收之後還沒收之後還去威脅說如果不要上報那你必須要給我多少錢那這個就有點像是管理上面的問題那他上面一層可能就要去做一些這個管理"},{"start":14008.919,"end":14028.934,"text":"那當然類似這樣的狀況其實軍中很多啦我們最近也聽到一些我們因為這跟軍中之外那跟警察局內政部有關聯我們有問一些內政部相關的這些長官他們提到的也是說有些時候是軍中他們一開始總是不希望有事情發生還是會想要壓著"},{"start":14029.414,"end":14054.916,"text":"到最後不得已還是會尋求警方的協助所以類似這樣的狀況我們還是要克服怎麼樣讓他們能夠勇於來去反應特別是有建制型的狀況就是班長 班兵 義務兵然後大家向上加上賊的這個狀況有沒有人敢出來講這個就是我們接下來要想的誘因是什麼這個部分是不是可以請簡單回應一下接下來怎麼做會比較好"},{"start":14056.345,"end":14069.233,"text":"包委員就我的了解我們現在在國軍的文化上面我們尤其是毒品這件事情我應該可以跟委員比較自信的說我們"},{"start":14071.658,"end":14097.714,"text":"不會有知道底下有人在持用或是所謂交易然後到了連級以上的排級連級以上的管理幹部所謂知情不報還願意包庇的那至於委員說有沒有更低階的那這個目前只要有我們基本上透過各個查查的方式我們都有自行查獲那到了連級和以上這些東西是沒有人會去包庇謝謝就是"},{"start":14099.355,"end":14116.089,"text":"這是好的開始有年級以上不會那我們就把它往到排級以上然後最後再到班級以上那這樣子慢慢的我們就可以把它盡量的不可能毒品它是永遠沒有辦法它是一個永遠不會間斷的戰爭就是總是會有人會繼續毒我們要做的是把它降低到一定的水準也就是說"},{"start":14117.51,"end":14133.487,"text":"還是要數據就是你在數據上面你要去很明顯的知道說這個是往下降的還是怎麼樣犯罪也是一樣嘛這個念過犯罪學大家也都清楚的就是沒有辦法把一個東西完全的把它消除掉但是我們盡量把它降低那接下來我們講到這一個志願"},{"start":14134.648,"end":14151.699,"text":"部隊的邊線筆也好大概就是我們的這個潮池化的衝擊我簡單還是要說一下我們最近有看到有很多在反應就是說我們的這個冰原制度邊線筆有些是說在往上增有些是說維持但是"},{"start":14152.952,"end":14169.591,"text":"我還是要思考一下如果說我們招募到的兵員為了要擴大兵員但是招募到不適合的甚至招募到會讓管理階層更頭痛的那他就不是嫁衣那每多一個兵員他其實是讓整個部隊連隊他的"},{"start":14171.954,"end":14198.172,"text":"作戰能力甚至是管理上面的時間反而負擔更多想請教一下部長你怎麼看這樣的狀況怎麼去取捨我們要與其多增一百個兵但那一百個兵裡面有更多讓他們頭痛來去更多無法去更難管教的甚至是因為他的這一個能力的問題或者是其他的這些過去的這些"},{"start":14199.929,"end":14225.378,"text":"人生遇到的一些機遇導致所以他在軍中更難管教那這樣的話怎麼去權衡包委員我是人事次長跟你說明一下我們目前都質量並重那對於有問題的士兵我們在招進來之後經過考核之後我們就會有問題的士兵我們就辦理那個離退場的機制這次各級部隊都會都有這個規範相關的做法這是沒有問題的"},{"start":14226.642,"end":14254.161,"text":"OK就進來之後我們再去規劃離退場就等於是說我們招募之後然後因為這個人不適合我們再請他辭職這其實在一般的民間公司我之前過去在日商也好他們對於招募這件事情是非常非常用心的因為他們招募到一個錯的員工會給他們造成的管理上面的問題那是非常頭痛的我們記得就是說把自己把報價單把我們的底價然後寫信給對方的公司說這就是我們的底價結果發現啊不是"},{"start":14255.161,"end":14281.593,"text":"傳錯了他本來要傳給我們的科長結果傳到對方的公司去類似這樣子的問題就是要多僱用一個員工造成不僅公司沒有盈利甚至還是虧損非常大因為底價被對方支打意思就是說對公司來講企業來講招募一個錯的員工他的影響更大所以與其在招募進來之後我們再亡羊補老我還是認為啦您缺那不要"},{"start":14282.984,"end":14308.34,"text":"明確誤爛 這個還是要思考一下這個部分那再來我們快速的 陸委部長要回應嗎 還是剛才已經我想招募的部分 應該我們會要求招募的人員他在招募的時候 確實就要注意這一段不好意思 我最近看到新聞上面有說要把智力測驗的下調 這個是真的還是假的這是假新聞沒有這是假新聞嗎"},{"start":14310.356,"end":14320.667,"text":"哇 你看這種假新聞這樣到處在網路上面蔓延確實是百分之百的假新聞沒有這個事情 沒有這個情勢國軍沒有要把"},{"start":14321.971,"end":14345.014,"text":"你看這個沒有下修的沒有下修的這個你看這個我們必須要接下來國防部可能要更加努力齁因為類似這樣子到處都是串啦臉書啦各種圖卡就是一直在講這些東西那我們如果沒有在國會殿堂來去第一時間的話那就可能要國防部你們自己必須要專區要盡快盡快去回復我最近還聽到一些友人在跟我講說你看現在國軍都"},{"start":14346.175,"end":14374.037,"text":"這是不對的不要被這種假新聞可騙不然最後一個問題就是能力不足的部分跟操作員的無人機的操作員的部分最近看到說審計部有在決算報告有說到合格的操作人員的不足那特別是說他有指出前年委託中科院他開辦的無人機夜巡的訓練班符合這個參訓資格36人中那實際參訓取得夜航資格僅6人那這只是一個案例"},{"start":14374.838,"end":14389.886,"text":"那重點是說包含這個進程型的無人機載具不管是多少人合體的合格的操作人數低於這個以籌貨的無人載具的這個數目那不管是各級的你說FPE也好或者是比較高階型的也好"},{"start":14390.706,"end":14415.217,"text":"那我想請教一下 這樣子的能力不足的問題它理論上不只是在台灣 在全世界各地都一定會發生那以台灣 對 我們是有少子化的問題但是在台灣的這個整體的國民教育素質是比起其他國家台灣已經是G20的這種經濟的這個能力以及教育水平都是在大專院校以上教育水準都是這個大專院校以上"},{"start":14417.043,"end":14432.933,"text":"為什麼烏克蘭他們在基輔的郵報裡面他們說他們的無人機操作員從後勤到整個實際上去用的大概是8萬人左右他們的無人機飛手大概是2.5萬人到4萬人左右"},{"start":14433.871,"end":14447.409,"text":"他們的就是針對就是類似我們的無人機指揮部的這些精銳的部隊就專職無人機的部隊他們到USF大概有1.5萬人左右為什麼他有這些人數那當然他是個大國中等國家他是個大國"},{"start":14449.632,"end":14466.626,"text":"領土非常廣大人口數但是其實他們的人口數昨天當然烏克蘭的這個國會議員也跟我們講他們人口數大概現在也只降到因為流離失所、戰亂、佔領等等的狀況大概只有2800多萬人也就是說他們的人口數大概跟我們已經是差不多為什麼還有這些人數為什麼"},{"start":14470.097,"end":14499.957,"text":"因為他們用心事的方式從民間上面來去取材也就是說除了義務役跟志願役之外他們有更多的人可以進入他們的drone line就是他們自己的設計的一個戰略性的一個做法大規模的來去在民間平常時期就他們現在當然是在戒嚴而且是戰爭時期但是他們讓他們在不用受到軍中的這一種待遇但是可以拿到類似私人企業的薪資來去參與這些無人機的操作"},{"start":14501.618,"end":14520.616,"text":"維修維管創新我意思是說這些飛手我們台灣登陸在岸的這些民航局在民航局的這些無人機的飛手他就是一個很好的人才庫那我們不需要說他們還要去主動這些對國家有責任的對國家熱愛的"},{"start":14521.877,"end":14538.067,"text":"他們平時還去參加一些NGO拿自己付錢來去增進他們自己的技術他們希望說有一天如果國家需要他們的時候他們不是在軍中但他們也可以來扮演一些角色有點像是他們國土防衛隊的角色這部分部長你有沒有想過說怎麼樣可以把這些民間的能量"},{"start":14538.447,"end":14559.329,"text":"我們嘉義自己也有啊 嘉義自從民選航太遠去之後 自己有一些無人機的愛好者自己成立一些他們的協會 那他們自己不斷地在精進他們的技術他們說只要國家有需要的話 告知他們 他們隨時都願意去那可是他們必須要理解到這個狀況 就是說他們自己有自己的工作 但只要國家有需要的時候 他們願意很快速地由民"},{"start":14560.593,"end":14578.816,"text":"轉到可以作為戰鬥人員但不是準戰鬥他們就是準戰鬥人員不是真實的在編制體下的人員這樣的可能性國防部部長你們有什麼樣的看法我想後備是我們的後續這個"},{"start":14580.596,"end":14596.049,"text":"在碰到狀況的時候的一個來源所以如果這些人納入我們的後備邊管那按照現行的制度才有可能那不然的話如果要納入戰鬥部隊"},{"start":14597.901,"end":14613.072,"text":"就是說如果是作為戰鬥部隊使用的話我想就是要納入貨幣邊關其他的途徑如果他不是從事戰鬥的第一線那唯一的方法就是按照權動法的相關的規定來進行一些"},{"start":14614.072,"end":14637.057,"text":"爭招的工作我想這個還是要區隔因為畢竟納入戰鬥的部隊它有涉及到相關我們既有的這些法律的框架戰鬥是戰鬥那當然這個國際上面有他們特別的國際法來去匡列戰鬥人員戰鬥人員受到的處遇就跟非戰鬥人員受到的處遇是不同的這是第一點"},{"start":14637.757,"end":14665.168,"text":"那第二點我們剛剛提到的這些人他們同時有維修協助的這些功能在你怎麼把它納入這第三點他們用自己的機型他們不知道不熟悉現在國防部你們在訓練的機型嗎那這樣的名利不是很可惜嗎如果他們有這樣對不管是對電工電鍍電這些基本的電機還有這樣子的程式軟體那這些編碼有基礎的能力那如果他們能夠結合我們自己現有的裝備"},{"start":14666.368,"end":14681.973,"text":"不要講到比較高端的專門就從第一型FPE的無人機那是不是到時候他們的協助在緊急狀況的協助可能會更大我覺得這些大家是不是可以想一下這個還是要區分如果他是有直接從事戰鬥資源的工作還是屬於戰鬥的一環因為這個根據國際法相關的規範要來研討"},{"start":14692.54,"end":14707.31,"text":"也就是說他是屬於這個,我們一般講說你可以納入民防體系,或者是你可以納入這些社區自救的體系,這是一件事情那如果從事戰鬥的跟從事戰鬥資源,這個都還是屬於戰鬥人員"},{"start":14717.033,"end":14733.324,"text":"比如說我們現在講後勤的維修這些都是屬於戰鬥資源如果他維修的都是屬於軍用的會從事戰鬥用的武器會成為合法的目標他還是會被界定為戰鬥人員這個可能要再想一下"},{"start":14738.82,"end":14757.785,"text":"我想就像俄羅斯一樣他們很大時間點他們是直接忽略戰爭相關的法條那是都從他們轟炸的各種民間設施的狀況以及無差別的轟炸那這是很明顯的所以在緊急時期我們要怎麼樣確保"},{"start":14760.117,"end":14778.784,"text":"能夠持續能夠維管維修在既有的編制之外還有沒有什麼其他的方式人家擴大我們的可能性可能還是我想這些部分可能不以公開來說明大家想一下好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":14784.451,"end":14790.417,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請葉元之委員上台質詢麻煩請那個部長來有請顧部長"},{"start":14813.599,"end":14827.508,"text":"先請教一下 因為部長昨天有去屏東九鵬基地去視導相關的深圳飛彈的一些操演狀況我問說昨天去 特別選在昨天去有沒有什麼特別的宣示的意義有沒有"},{"start":14830.121,"end":14845.44,"text":"因為它就是6號、7號、8號嘛,那我就選一天過去看一下這個相關的,因為有神宮跟神陰的草原,那特別就神宮草原的部分首次有人稀釋的無人刺針徽端的一個設計嘛。"},{"start":14846.701,"end":14855.127,"text":"那我想去瞭解一下,而且幫部隊打氣一下,然後也瞭解這個訓練的實況那現在看起來怎麼樣?我們現在整體的狀況"},{"start":14863.823,"end":14880.213,"text":"就訓練來看的話應該都是應該說按計畫執行那也達到這個訓練的一個成效那我想我們我看了以後我當然覺得我們可以再進一步的在"},{"start":14882.095,"end":14894.911,"text":"密集的 不是說更密集 應該是說訓練只有更好 沒有最好所以應該有關這些 譬如說我們首次這個仁溪社會設計這個我在現場看到以後 我覺得應該可以在"},{"start":14900.557,"end":14929.017,"text":"再更多的一個涉及的訓練那這第一個第二個當然要貼近更實戰化的一個一個一個一個場景裡面去做去做這樣子我覺得這個都是可以再進一步進進的那尤其仁溪市當然這是首次嘛那我們去看我個人覺得他們的訓練都是很辛苦的然後要要賦予這樣子的一個一個一個"},{"start":14930.7,"end":14950.488,"text":"追苗等等這些我在現場看到可以充分的感受到這個是不容易的一件事情所以要透過一個精實的訓練我對他們的受到這樣的精實訓練是感到蠻高興的好 謝謝部長接下來跟部長討論一下今天我們主題主要就是軍中人力的問題"},{"start":14951.408,"end":14980.205,"text":"因為我們看到那個國防部送來的立法院的書面報告是有指出因為有這個薪資待遇調整的關係然後志願役的人力的成長有到五千人但是其實我在網路上面看到有很多軍中的弟兄蠻不以為然這件事情就是說這個五千是不是數字的美化可能部長還是要了解一下因為譬如說有人就講說那你就講到增加的他怎麼沒有講到跑道多少"},{"start":14980.825,"end":14995.526,"text":"然後會不會半年後會有一些賠錢的新聞因為他們如果說欠人志願役如果提早離開可能又賠錢嘛然後還有會不會一種說法是增加近來60%但是不適服的55%然後還有提醒要不要看一下報退的人數"},{"start":14996.385,"end":15012.623,"text":"所以我覺得這個在給立法院報告的時候應該精準啦就是說當然也可能你們在真人的部分有成長可是那對整體的能力來說到底有沒有提升因為有進就有出嘛所以這個部分部長您的了解是怎樣就整體我剛剛"},{"start":15014.525,"end":15034.357,"text":"剛剛其實也有其他委員指教也就是說我們當然也有這個進來的當然也有出去的那總體來講還是增加了3000多個在114年的跟113年比較那所以總的來講還是呈現一個成長還是會按照現在的做法之後應該還是會成長"},{"start":15036.001,"end":15061.238,"text":"我們總是要兢兢業業來從事各項的工作但總體來看當然就是說現在人數還是呈現成長另外一個就是戰鬥部隊的變現比的問題因為雖然整體國軍來說是八成可是你看有一些特別特殊軍種的戰鬥部隊就比較差一點比如說像海軍的士兵現在的變現比在陸戰隊"},{"start":15063.558,"end":15071.823,"text":"國防部戰砲各連手備運輸防空飛彈連才60.49%各艦隊的部隊的61.21%然後像戰術深舟大隊62.63%空軍的防空飛彈部隊才40.78%所以這個是非常的低那這個應該就是老問題了所以我不曉得國防部針對這些戰鬥部隊邊線比那麼低有沒有什麼比較具體的做法"},{"start":15093.757,"end":15117.902,"text":"所以每一個單位 它的邊線比低的原因都要加以檢討嘛對 因為這個應該 應該討論一兩年我舉個例子啦 比如說您講的各艦隊的 它士兵的這個部分的邊線比低啊那就涉及到他們這個海型加級的這個部分我們就必須要對這個部分來做一檢討因為海型加級的部分在"},{"start":15118.921,"end":15128.059,"text":"士兵、士官、軍官是有些差異的那同樣大家都在艦隊上面服務那這個海警的這個家籍的部我們就會來檢討"},{"start":15129.127,"end":15146.356,"text":"那這樣子的話找出這個因為他士兵的邊線比較低嘛可是士官跟軍官的邊線比較高嘛所以我們就要找出這個理由然後再來提供所以部長你應該是已經找到理由了嘛現在只是說每個各部隊對啦我的意思是說這其實不是新的數據啦應該這一兩年來每個各部隊都要主力來檢查對 我的意思是說現在執行的問題嘛因為這一兩年來應該很多人都跟你討論過這個問題"},{"start":15158.513,"end":15172.019,"text":"但是我現在問你 你還是說我們要找到原因然後有些原因你也是知道所以現在就是什麼時候要去實施嘛比如說你說各艦隊士兵的訓練比較低你什麼時候要實施的問題呢所以就是要跟人總已經都討論了那你什麼時候要實施因為現在總體的整個方案我們總是要尊重人總"},{"start":15185.168,"end":15212.002,"text":"那人總跟我們討論出確定了以後我才能夠對外所以你應該是這樣講的就是說你現在已經有一個方案了也跟人總來討論了是然後所以只要人總同意OK就會對外公佈嘛所以這個東西是在進行當中啦是是是應該是這樣講因為當時總議院副委的時候也是說我們辦年齡所以行政院現在有一體的軍控叫加薪那之外我們的各項加級那我們適切的去討論各項的原因那我們用加級都是包在那個"},{"start":15212.982,"end":15240.717,"text":"軍公教加薪裡面嗎沒有沒有軍公教加薪是另外的我們是另外的所以他還會再找時間公布就對了對對我們總體討論以後有一個確定的方案我們就會來公布這樣子然後根據這個原因譬如說像委員就指出來你看喔如果各艦隊的部隊他的士兵的邊線比跟士官跟軍官的邊線比低那你要找出他的原因那你如果全部"},{"start":15241.557,"end":15249.187,"text":"一體加這個志願役的加級的話而沒有再特別去調整那個士兵的這個海潛的這個加級的話我"},{"start":15252.673,"end":15280.453,"text":"可能還是沒有對症效藥所以我們必須要照顧到基層的士兵所以海情的這個部門的加緊要有調整這個我都懂了啦因為剛剛都有講過我們現在講的是什麼時候要實施嘛那我現在抓一個時間如果我沒有理解錯誤的話你們已經把這些問題都跟人總討論過了嘛但是現在要尊重人總公佈的時程嘛我現在如果沒有理解錯誤應該是這樣嘛因為現在知道問題要知行合一嘛那接下來就是等人總公佈了啦"},{"start":15281.914,"end":15293.677,"text":"然後再來我再來問一下因為我現在看你們不市府就是剛剛講說有進有出不市府確實每一年逐年有在減少11年是3623112是到了3928但是到了113 114 115你看下滑蠻快的"},{"start":15302.839,"end":15323.48,"text":"那應該是跟軍中目前調整一些生活起居的舒適度各方面管理可能有關但是還是要提醒一下部長因為也有一些在網路上有看到有一些軍人的反應他說不市府的數量減少可能跟那個流程被卡住有關"},{"start":15324.608,"end":15343.935,"text":"像有人想要調職呢就先擋退伍也擋然後或者是說已經明明跟負責人士幹部提出了但偏偏都卡在沒有約談所以沒有辦法往下跑程序然後也有人提到就是說這個報退程序可能會拖到一年以上"},{"start":15344.537,"end":15358.509,"text":"那我是不曉得是不是有一個潛規則啦就是說有下令說有人假設要申請提早退伍的話是不是有說盡量在程序上慢一點然後讓這個數字好看有沒有這個潛規則"},{"start":15360.197,"end":15387.012,"text":"跟委員報告是這樣就是說第一個有一個是個案的問題一個是長期趨勢來看所以剛剛委員講的是個案我沒有辦法完全排除有這個可能性但是如果有發現這種狀況我們一定會下去處理但是您剛剛也提到如果你長年來看就是說已經三年了它都呈現下降的趨勢那就表示說我們相關的一些政策作為是有效的因為你不可能說每一個報退的人他都"},{"start":15387.592,"end":15411.816,"text":"他都被擋然後然後但是整體整年的還是呈現下降的趨勢這個這個所以我們我當我國安部立場我是如果有個案發現那這個要去處理那國安部立場是在政策面上面去製造一個讓這個不適合的人數逐年下降的一個好的環境這是我們國安部應該有的政策那如果說有個案因為個案多就變通案嘛"},{"start":15412.236,"end":15441.196,"text":"所以你也要去了解一下說軍中有沒有說在人家報退的程序上故意卡人家盡量叫不要卡這個當然都要看哪個單位嘛都要下去處理盡量去不要卡然後再來請教一下就是國防部有講說未來國軍將依科技取代人力及火力取代傳統兵力兩大方向前進請問一下什麼科技取代人力是指什麼"},{"start":15442.301,"end":15467.867,"text":"因為這個寫的比較抽象一點科技取代人力然後火力取代傳統兵力是指什麼我們請設計師委員你好 設計師長報告那針對剛剛講的部分我們針對組織邊桩有做調整那在區分的幾個部分來跟你說明我們有區分無人系統那我們運用無人機跟無人的載具進行偵查還有警戒還有執行相關高風險的任務來減輕我們人員的負荷"},{"start":15471.068,"end":15496.946,"text":"在智慧監視部分我們有裝了相關的監視系統還有AI的辨識影像來降低我們衛哨相關的人力在我們的邊磚也有做調整自動化的後勤我們有導入到智慧的倉儲裝備的管理等等來減輕我們重複性的行政作業減少我們的後勤人力的壓力還有相關的智慧指管等等這些都是我們現在在做的"},{"start":15497.446,"end":15517.136,"text":"那這些做了之後可以將我們的組織再精進然後可以將我們的人力還有這些作業優化這是我們現在在做一個五年兵整的規劃都已經完成相關的這些規劃所以到時候就可以取代部分的人力嗎這個減少一些少子化的問題是這個意思嗎應該是說可以取代大部分的人力"},{"start":15518.556,"end":15540.021,"text":"科技的運用它不是單純的採檢原格是將這些人力優先配置在我們需要的戰鬥部隊裡面這個是我們現在要重要的部長還有兩個小問題跟你請教一下因為我之前看到國防部要修改那個兵役的體位的規定就是本來85智商85以下是不用當兵那現在要調到剛剛已經說明了這個不確實85沒有調"},{"start":15547.479,"end":15575.777,"text":"這個消息不確實不是啊 不是不確實 我還沒講完嘛你可能是回答別的委員 不是回答我 我還沒講完好 85智商85以下的不用當兵嘛但是你們現在還是要增級只是把70到85把它移過去當替代役嘛對啊 你們就是配合內政部的修法嘛所以70到85還是要先增兵增兵完之後再把它分配到替代役嘛但其實我覺得這個你們要跟內政部講一下"},{"start":15576.837,"end":15591.682,"text":"因為70到85智商7到85放在軍中大家也不放心嘛對不對 所以你們覺得不可能嘛還是要維持智商85以上可是他們去做替代也是一樣的狀況啊就變成說也是會增加很多比如說他的前輩要去照顧"},{"start":15592.682,"end":15609.51,"text":"然後或者是到底指令能不能接受完整然後甚至於說因為他們這種特殊狀況然後去當替代役有時候人家還會打探說你是什麼病情來的也會影響到他個人的隱私啊所以我是覺得這個東西是還沒定案對不對還沒定案嘛"},{"start":15614.059,"end":15643.189,"text":"報告委員這個部分來講我們常備役的部分的這個自立的部分是沒有調整的我知道啦我知道我現在是你們配合內政部調整嘛那我現在是說這個東西定案沒有嘛對定案了嗎其實看看是不是可以跟內政部再討論一下因為這個可能也沒辦法補充多少替代役的人力但是可能會造成更多的問題這是不是可以再跟內政部溝通一下而且會造成一些徵兵的問題啊"},{"start":15644.964,"end":15645.602,"text":"不要不要"},{"start":15647.215,"end":15675.131,"text":"替代役的體會的部分呢因為國防部的立場是當然我們都是兩部討論嘛兩個部會討論那麼我們常備的體會我們是用國防部來主責那替代役的部分由內政部那委員的意見我反映給內政部 好不好好 那第二個第二個問題因為我之前我本來有個提案一個想法就是說其實我們很多退伍的軍人不管軍官士官他們退伍以後"},{"start":15675.911,"end":15700.63,"text":"如果要再就業其實是可以幫國家做蠻多事情的啦我就舉一個例子啦有一個是退休的飛官他是原住民那他現在就在學校裡面教原住民語言但是他教了幾堂課之後很快就超過了他的再就業的薪資上限不能超過三萬八千一百三嘛好嗎 再一分鐘不能超過三萬八千一百三嘛所以我"},{"start":15701.411,"end":15725.911,"text":"那之前本來有一個提案希望能夠打開這個天花板後來我跟其實蠻多的軍中的前輩討論過他們確實就是很多退伍的軍人比如說特戰部隊退伍下來他訓練有數啊訓練有數然後他他就可以到比如說一些特種營區去做比如說保保全或什麼什麼的工作但是"},{"start":15726.651,"end":15750.456,"text":"那個工作他又受到那個薪資上限的規定所以他們可能就到民間去做私人保全所以這個退伍軍人薪資再就業的天花板實際上限制了很多我們公家機關招攬那些退伍軍人的機會他們不來這邊其實他們也是可以去民間機關可是我們就喪失這個人才"},{"start":15751.192,"end":15772.784,"text":"那我上次提這個案之後有很多民進黨的立委罵說這個其實我是想要解決人力的問題啦我是想解決讓我們的公家機關有更好的退伍的軍人退休軍公教可以再就業的問題但是就被扭曲成說什麼要腹屁肥貓我根本沒必要腹屁人貓啊現在肥貓也是民進黨在養啊關我什麼事我就只是想要"},{"start":15773.664,"end":15794.729,"text":"我就只是想要解決人力的問題讓優秀的退伍軍人可以載到工部門來服務不管當教官也好或當訓練的訓練人也好所以部長這個我不知道可不可以請國防部來研究一下就是說可以假設我剛剛講的那個動機目的是可以解決一些人力問題"},{"start":15795.549,"end":15818.323,"text":"然後又不要讓社會上面民進黨那些人扣帽子說是在養肥貓能不能請國防部研究一個平衡點就是說退伍軍人他要再就業他的薪資天花板要定在多高一方面可以滿足人力的需求另外一方面又不會被人家認為是雙薪的肥貓部長這個可不可以幫忙研議一下"},{"start":15821.567,"end":15843.512,"text":"公園報告下我是資源司司長當初會有這樣子的訂定其實也是在立法院就是之前在審議的時候就是有討論到雙薪的問題所以後來現在訂了這樣的一個天花板那至於這樣子的一個需求我想我們還是要跟退府會然後一起來跟社會要一起來研商也要取得社會的一個共識來進行相關的一個處理以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":15844.452,"end":15862.624,"text":"你不用雙薪肥貓應該就薪水很高嘛那你今天如果說我剛剛講的比如說他是退伍的然後他去學校講原住民語言他薪水可能四萬塊五萬塊而且是憑自己的勞力對不對 付出我覺得這樣子要把人家講成是雙薪肥貓是有點太過了啦"},{"start":15863.852,"end":15876.925,"text":"所以我是希望國防部可以訂一個標準就是什麼情況之下其實是符合正常的勞力社會的付出什麼情況之下你們會認為說那是肥貓是不是可以訂一些樣態跟標準出來"},{"start":15878.937,"end":15897.394,"text":"因為這個部分其實軍公教都是有一致的規範就是不光是退伍軍人其實退伍的公教人員也是一樣所以這個部分可能我們還是要能夠跟相關部會一起來協商包括退伍會然後要有一個社會的一個共識那你就可以了那你就去跟退伍會協商了好 謝謝那就跟退伍會協商了好 謝謝"},{"start":15904.521,"end":15908.864,"text":"剛剛委員提到的就是說替代役的這個部分因為"},{"start":15911.371,"end":15936.661,"text":"入訓的時候其實還是會到心訓中心去訓練所以你的如果說像智力在70以上到85之間其實他還是會到軍中他可能還是會有影響那這個部分剛剛國防部回應說是假訓起這也是錯的因為你們已經在配合可能相關的一些政策方向所以我們希望在回答的時候也可以更精準一點"},{"start":15937.341,"end":15940.063,"text":"那如果說對我們整個政策有影響我們都應該要不管是行政院也好內政部我們都應該要提出比較專業的看法那如果還需要其他的人去照顧他們那可能我們也沒有這麼多的人力在這裡先提醒國防部"},{"start":15958.516,"end":15983.538,"text":"已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員林楚英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢及未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}