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MANGA"},{"start":1966.598,"end":1994.344,"text":"大家早安我们现在开会来进行教育经费编列与管理法修法的公听会非常感谢各界学者专家大家一同来关心这个重要的议题那今天呢我们准备了几个提纲第一个财政收支划分法修正之后地方政府可以运用的财源增加了"},{"start":1994.924,"end":2019.77,"text":"中央与地方教育事权以及经费的分担也有必要重新厘清那为了确保教育经费法定保障的下限地方教育预算编列以及第一线学校运作的稳定中央与地方应如何建立衔接机制避免因为责任分工调整影响学生的受教权"},{"start":2020.29,"end":2040.583,"text":"以及教育品质这是我们今天的第一个讨论的提纲那第二个部分呢就是现行的教育经费编列与管理法第三条它仅仅规定各级政府教育经费预算合计不得低于前三年度的决算税入净额平均值23%"},{"start":2042.924,"end":2066.782,"text":"那是否有必要进一步的明定中央与地方教育经费的分担原则或中央的最低编列基准以提升制度的明确性可预测性以及财政稳定性那这第二个提纲呢也希望大家提供建言第三个财政收支划分法修正之后地方政府可以运用的财源增加了"},{"start":2067.302,"end":2089.748,"text":"如果地方没有依照教育经费基本需求以及分担原则足额编列那中央应该要如何建立必要的监督考核跟补救机制来确保教育经费的稳定以及学生的受教权第四个提纲学校午餐采用国产可溯源食材补助从100"},{"start":2091.428,"end":2119.418,"text":"15年起回归地方政府负担另外在食材运输人事水电以及校园基本营运成本都持续的上升中央与地方要如何确保补助不中断品质不降低并检讨水电费等基本运作支出是否应于教育经费法定下限之外另行编列避免排挤教学弱势的辅助"},{"start":2119.938,"end":2135.032,"text":"偏鄉教育跟特殊教育的經費那最後一個提綱是如何強化教育經費之財政紀律與制度監督行政院教育經費基準委員會的組成跟運作"},{"start":2135.652,"end":2163.631,"text":"是不是应该要纳入教师家长校长偏乡原住民族教育特殊教育跟幼教等代表并强化会议的资料计算的公式各级政府应该分担的数额跟决议理由之公开来提升决策的透明度跟社会监督那非常感谢大家就这五个重要的讨论提纲呢"},{"start":2164.071,"end":2187.065,"text":"做这个预备那等一下呢就请大家能够一同的来发言做建言那现在呢我们来介绍我们在场的学者专家那我这边会依照签到的顺序来介绍那第一个来到的第一位台湾教育产业工会的叶明正监事"},{"start":2190.678,"end":2204.651,"text":"第二位國立台北教育大學教育經營與管理學系的陳建志副教授第三位是中華民國政奪學會丁志仁常務理事"},{"start":2205.932,"end":2235.023,"text":"那他也是这次公听会非常重要的倡议发起者那第四位是中华民国参核食品商业同业工会全国联合会的陈明信理事长谢谢欢迎您第五位财团法人正阳文教基金会吴中泰执行长谢谢欢迎您第六位台湾教育人员产业总工会陈志杰主任"},{"start":2237.014,"end":2261.501,"text":"辛苦了那第七位是全国高级中等学校教产工会张建明副理事长谢谢您第八位台北市国小家长联合会的陈建甫副总会长欢迎您谢谢第九位台湾家长教育联盟谢国清常务理事"},{"start":2263.564,"end":2290.744,"text":"谢谢好久不见那么目前呢我们到场的有九位那没有关系等一下依序到场呢我们再做继续的介绍好那现在我们来介绍政府机关的代表好谢谢今天非常辛苦教育部政务次长张亮万坚谢谢张亮政次"},{"start":2292.031,"end":2315.843,"text":"国前署副署长许丽娟许副署长财政部国库署的罗瑞红专门委员谢谢国家发展委员会社会发展处的苏爱娟专门委员谢谢行政院主计总署公务预算处的王前凯专门委员"},{"start":2317.645,"end":2333.367,"text":"谢谢那其余列席的机关代表呢请参阅名单不再逐一介绍列入公报记录好那么为了大家能够顺利的表达意见我们做以下的处理每一位发言时间7分钟"},{"start":2334.088,"end":2348.838,"text":"第六分钟的时候我们会有铃声提醒七分钟结束会有一个结束铃学者专家发言的顺序以签到签后顺序为准现场的发言以及书面的资料立法院都会做成记录刊登公报"},{"start":2349.378,"end":2374.26,"text":"那本院委員如果要發言請在上午10點以前到主席台登記我們會在會議當中穿插安排並且依登記順序發言那上午10點以後登記的委員要安排在所有學者專家發言完畢之後我們再按登記順序發言如果需要提前發言呢我們再視情況著與調整那現在我們先請教育部張廖萬堅次長"},{"start":2376.021,"end":2381.828,"text":"就现行的规定执行的状况相关的问题提出说明时间是7分钟请"},{"start":2384.844,"end":2409.252,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好那麼感謝各位對教育發展的關心那麼今天大院教育文化委員會那麼召開了教育經費編列與管理法修法的公聽會那麼本部呈要列席報告並得聆聽各位委員各界先進的法規意見自感榮幸那麼基於維護教育健全發展提升教育經費運用績效之需要"},{"start":2411.313,"end":2430.713,"text":"從86年7月憲法徵修條文公佈明定教育科學文化經費不受憲法第164條規定不得少於預算總額15%的限制後政府參酌了各界的反應並基於維護教育健全發展以及提升教育經費運用的績效"},{"start":2433.075,"end":2451.482,"text":"那麼拟據了教育經費編約與管理法並在89年12月13號公布那麼其後呢歷經了兩次修正那麼最近一次修正是在105年1月6號來完成並將教育經費法定的下限續提高至23%"},{"start":2453.817,"end":2477.987,"text":"那麼財政收支劃分法在修正公布之後中央的稅入大幅減少地方政府所獲配之中央統籌分配稅款則大幅提升為了因應中央稅入減少之財政衝擊必須相對減劣各項支出原補助地方政府辦理教育自治事項之經費亦需重新檢討與調整"},{"start":2479.668,"end":2505.927,"text":"過往補助地方基本支出的部分將回歸由地方辦理至於仍需中央政策引導之重點工作則改由中央與地方共同負擔那麼以下呢僅就要僅則要就建立中央與地方經費教育經費銜接機制落實教育經費之編列強化監督及考核機制確保教育經費"},{"start":2508.203,"end":2532.119,"text":"合理分攤等事項呢進行說明那麼敬請各位委員各界先進來指教第一有關建立中央與地方教育經費銜接的機制那麼地方政府呢依其財政能力學生的結構學校的規模城鄉條件以及教育發展的需要優先來穩定國民教育"},{"start":2532.699,"end":2558.601,"text":"那麼中央則需持續關注跨縣市資源的差異並就偏鄉援助民主地區特殊的教育弱勢輔助以及重大教育政策等具全國性或均衡性意義的事項來維持必要的支持與調解中央與地方會依此來建立銜接的機制共同來維護教育的品質"},{"start":2559.562,"end":2587.135,"text":"那麼第二落實教育經費之編列那麼現行所定各級政府教育經費因編列之機制呢是以各級政府教育經費預算合計因不低於該年度預算籌編之前三年度的決算稅入淨額呢平均之百分之二十三來計算那並參照呢中央與地方政府財政的能力計算出各級政府教育經費因分擔的數額"},{"start":2589.016,"end":2602.006,"text":"那麼經由教育經費基準委員會研商確認後報請行政院核定之那麼裁判法修法之後呢因為大幅削減了中央可運用制裁員"},{"start":2603.632,"end":2627.668,"text":"如果明定基準與匡列中央應分擔之教育經費中央財政恐無力負擔而且失去了兼顧國防外交及社會福利等重大政策之調解能力是以教育經費之編列應落實在財政穩健以及公平分配的前提下使能促進教育資源的永續健全發展第三"},{"start":2629.529,"end":2646.918,"text":"強化監督及考核的機制本部已將各地方政府配合編列教育經費應分攤數字情形納入中央對直轄市及縣市政府教育面向計畫及預算考核項目並加重配分此外"},{"start":2647.498,"end":2662.621,"text":"於業務推動過程落實督導考核機制積極檢討各項地方政府補助計畫之補助比例地方自籌比例那麼隨著各地方政府整體財政自主性及可運用財源顯著提升"},{"start":2663.482,"end":2680.775,"text":"持續透過制度性的監理、專業輔導以及資訊揭露的機制與地方政府共同來延續政策確保學校午餐品質與維持水電基本運作支出以避免排擠其他的教育經費"},{"start":2682.441,"end":2697.21,"text":"第四 確保教育經費之合理分攤教育經費為了教育運作提供必要的動能並支持著各教育階段的穩定運行以永續發展"},{"start":2698.231,"end":2712.327,"text":"本部會持續透過專業代表組成的教育經費基準委員會來審議確保教育經費分攤比例的合理性並積極與地方政府攜手合作確保財政制度調整"},{"start":2713.148,"end":2728.849,"text":"不影響第一線學校的運作也不降低整體的教育品質那麼以上報告敬請各位委員及各界先進持續給予本部支持與指教各項詳細內容請參閱書面報告敬祝各位委員先進健康平安謝謝"},{"start":2729.98,"end":2756.157,"text":"好 谢谢张料次长的说明报告那这边呢 再来补充介绍到场的学者专家今天要参与第十位发言的是新北市教师会在场的是林松红前理事长但是她因为个人现在喉咙比较不方便发声由蔡泰玉副理事长代为发言"},{"start":2757.352,"end":2772.139,"text":"第十一位,我们邀请到新北市新庄社区大学的杜云琦主任秘书,欢迎您。第十二位,邀请全国教师公会总联合会计全国教师会的叶清琦理事长。"},{"start":2773.376,"end":2788.224,"text":"欢迎您谢谢好那今天呢其余有财政部国发会行政院主席总处提出书面报告那机关代表除了书面之外有无口头补充说明"},{"start":2789.619,"end":2809.859,"text":"好没有那机关代表说明完毕相关的书面资料请各位参阅并列入公报记录接下来我们才请学者专家做今天修法公听会的发言第一位我们邀请到叶明正监事来发言请"},{"start":2824.448,"end":2848.846,"text":"主席張耀次長各位委員各位官員各位在座的學者專家女士先生大家早安我是台灣教育產業工會的葉明正老師首先非常感謝吳立華委員安排今天這一場修法的公聽會並邀請台教產出席表達意見那也跟各位第一件事情我要跟大家報告一下"},{"start":2849.266,"end":2875.843,"text":"我本身是國小的總務主任我這六年來在學校的第一線處理學校的柴米油鹽敲敲打打的這個工作我非常的體認到教育經費對於基層的校園是非常非常重要的教育經費是所有活動的重要要素任何一項政策都必須要有穩固的裁員作為後盾那"},{"start":2878.128,"end":2902.129,"text":"針對這一次的修法的內容我們檢視了今天的書面資料其實是14個修法的關係文書不過我們自己稍微做了一下功課在立法院的系統上還有另外兩份包含我們主席吳立華委員所提出的修法版本我們以下是針對這16個修法版本我們提出了四個方向"},{"start":2902.89,"end":2918.978,"text":"就是落實基本需求 明定權責編制強化紀律規監督 推動合理審議我們覺得這是我們未來在討論這個修法的時候非常重要的一個方向首先我們有13個版本"},{"start":2926.618,"end":2943.804,"text":"第一件事情我們目前有13個立法委員的版本都主張把教育經費的法定下限由23%提高到24%那今天的報告裡面所有的四個機關的報告文書裡面對這一點大概明顯持的是一個反對的意見"},{"start":2944.904,"end":2968.995,"text":"可是我要提醒在座諸位官員在2015年跟2016年的修法的時候行政院曾經有發布一份新聞稿他們支持把這個下限下修到23.5%所以我們認為提高這個法定下限這件事情其實基本上是在草野本來就已經是有共識的地方在上一次修法的時候其實是23.5%"},{"start":2970.819,"end":2990.027,"text":"所以我們非常肯定這13份立委提案它要擴大教育經費的用心因為現在的這個比例確實沒有辦法來支應教學現場非常多樣的需求跟新興政策的成本所以我們對這件事情是表示支持的但是我們也要提醒"},{"start":2991.662,"end":3020.378,"text":"擴大教育經費的下限之後還要再做一件事情要非常落實我們教育經費編列管理辦法的第十點我們所有的經費要回到教育需求來去實質評估那個基準因為只要您走入中小學的現場不論它是偏鄉的小校或者是都會的大校每個人都在喊窮所以集體喊窮是我們現場裡面很普遍的情況因為所有的學校都認為"},{"start":3021.338,"end":3047.09,"text":"它被分配到的常態性經費需求是嚴重不足的所以很多學校只好去找錢搶錢花錢去申請競爭型的計畫那這個其實是一個本末導致的一個現象所以我們認為在擴大經費的下限之外我們更要落實的是第十條要從基本需求來編列經費的這樣的一個精神第二個我們在這一次"},{"start":3048.673,"end":3062.711,"text":"這一次的修法的版本裡面我們特別支持的是吳立華委員跟柯志恩委員的版本因為他們的版本裡面提到了要明定中央最低編列的基準確立各級政府的那個籌編預算的責任"},{"start":3066.004,"end":3086.075,"text":"我要舉一個實例因為財化法的關係讓中央跟地方的教育經費的責任陷入一個拉扯我這邊要跟次長報告上個禮拜在宜蘭縣就發生一個非常具體的例子我們都知道我們現在的原額編制是沒有辦法滿足教學現場的需求所以我們中央有特別"},{"start":3087.665,"end":3098.281,"text":"提出了一個叫做合理圓額的一個方案的設計然後呢這個政策引導方向是好的可是過去也因為地方不肯出錢所以中央用了非常多的專案經費來去做補助"},{"start":3100.615,"end":3117.225,"text":"所以然後今年看起來各個地方的收入增加了可是上個禮拜在宜蘭我們就會發現我們的學校所收到的合理原額的分配的方案是銳減的那縣政府就一句話因為中央的補助款是銳減"},{"start":3118.84,"end":3130.4,"text":"所以這個就是一個非常具體的我們沒有明定中央跟地方的那個責任只有產生的一個雖然我們財化法增加了好像中央就推給地方地方說要看中央所以呢"},{"start":3131.614,"end":3160.2,"text":"雖然宜蘭縣的這個案子案例最後是大家各方的建言之下宜蘭縣政府用專案的方式來解決的但是我們每個學校都在擔心今年有不見得明年也會有這種決策都是究極式的所以我們非常肯定兩位委員所提出來的版本我們希望這一次的修法要徹底的去釐清中央跟地方的教育事權然後重新去翻修"},{"start":3160.78,"end":3164.006,"text":"中央跟地方在經費的分配的機制"},{"start":3164.856,"end":3187.569,"text":"所以這是我們第二點想要支持的第三點我們也非常肯定兩位委員 柯委員跟吳委員的版本對於強化教育財政紀律監督然後甚至要提出設置中央教育發展基金這件事情分別在第十條跟第十三條提出雙管齊下這樣的方法我覺得透過群責的導定還有專款滾存這兩雙管齊下"},{"start":3192.012,"end":3213.626,"text":"是可以建立一個比較透明的財政紀律確保我們非常珍貴的教育經費資源可以用在每一個學子之上最後一個對於最近爭議引發爭議的教育經費編列審議參與的問題我覺得我比較遺憾的是目前16個修法的版本沒有針對這個問題做解決這個法源是在我們這個辦法的第九條第二項"},{"start":3220.219,"end":3248.611,"text":"我們非常期待在修法的時候能夠補足這一個有關於校長、老師、家長團體代表參與教育經費基準審議委員會的參與比例讓這個用法律來確立合一審議的一個民主的防線因為在目前的修法版本都沒有我覺得法治的一個過程就回歸法治面來把它落實保障是一個比較好的"},{"start":3249.588,"end":3264.894,"text":"一個部分總結來說我們提出了這四項修法的主張是相互護衛表裡缺一不可提高下限擴大經費只是新格的第一步但是更要透過修法來釐清中央地方的"},{"start":3266.095,"end":3286.075,"text":"籌編責任然後要籌設中央教育發展基金嚴明財政紀律並把行政、老師、家長三大支柱的參與審議的機制能夠正式法治化然後我們希望朝野立委能夠盡快的把我們非常有共識的部分趕快盡速完成這個立法"},{"start":3286.676,"end":3301.965,"text":"重新建構我們的教育財政的體制讓我們這麼多數千億的教育經費能夠全數回歸教育的本質然後攤在陽光下讓我們的台灣的教育環境能夠更加的穩健好 以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":3302.785,"end":3319.66,"text":"好 非常感谢台湾教育产业工会我们叶明正监事所做的发言谢谢您那下一位我们有请国北教大教育经营与管理学系的陈建志副教授"},{"start":3323.442,"end":3350.961,"text":"我們親愛的召集人還有我們在場各位關心教育的好夥伴還有我們各位教育部的長官還有各體單位的長官大家好我是國北教育大學陳建志很開心能夠來參加這一次的公聽會公聽會的主題是教育經費編列與管理法的修法公聽會那在這個報告之前我想要先給我們的政府一個非常大肯定就是明年我們軍公教又要調新了所以會給現在因為現在大家都在面臨教師"},{"start":3351.681,"end":3370.447,"text":"真是工人考試對於公教人員一定是一個很大的鼓舞就是讓更多優秀年輕的學子願意加入我們公教的行列一起為我們國家來奉獻我覺得這對整體國家的發展來看是非常好的事情那國家的發展如果在公教這一塊有更大的就是妥善的照顧之後"},{"start":3371.127,"end":3390.763,"text":"就是要到我們這個教育經費編列與管理法了因為自從財化法就是正式上路之後變成剛剛我們次長也有提到就是說我們中央把一些經費就是編到了地方那地方跟我們中央怎麼樣在這個所謂的23%的這個法定的下限之上"},{"start":3391.323,"end":3419.174,"text":"地方跟中央進行一個配置跟配合到底地方要編多少中央要編多少這個也是我們很多委員都非常關心的議題那至於剛剛我們的理事長他所提到就是說教育經費要不要再加一就是從23到24我想會由我們各個大家相關的教育的專家在座在座討論當然這個政策絕對對教育來講是好事但是會不會排擠到其他的預算邀請各位專家一起來評估來思考"},{"start":3420.054,"end":3434.284,"text":"絕對對教育而言是一件非常好的事情那我想部分財源下放地方教育經費的根基保障保障根基一定要確認到23%下去之後中央要負擔多少地方要負擔多少我想"},{"start":3434.824,"end":3449.561,"text":"現在這個健全的透明機制是我們社會所非常期待所看到的就是中央要編多少地方要編多少當然剛剛我們次長也說就是因為有些錢已經到了我們的地方了因此在便利的時候如果用一個很"},{"start":3450.482,"end":3468.64,"text":"一個很基準性的方式去評估的話可能會每個縣市可能會的基準性會不一樣那這部分就要靠我們教育部的智慧了就是會不會不同的縣市分配到不同的財源然後中央跟地方要有不同的比例那個比例的機制這個部分可能是我們可以再去思考一個地方好嗎然後"},{"start":3469.941,"end":3495.939,"text":"目前我想一些部分的經費因為才化法的通過之後所以教育與基礎建設的經費有一些可能會轉向專案以及計劃型的申請是不是要去釐清呢那不低於23%我們大家一直在談23%的總量下限沒有明定中央跟地方的比例我想也是這一次公聽會大家非常好奇也非常期望後續如果可以建立一個機制的話會不會讓我們的教育會"},{"start":3498.3,"end":3520.86,"text":"的這種預算的編列或是預算的執行更有可以被去push被去評估的一個機制這個是我想在座與會每一個專家每一個教育夥伴都非常關心的一個議題但是也是要跟大家報告這23person是20多年來我們好不容易打下的根基這剛剛我們的相關的次長也跟我們報告86年來講我們"},{"start":3522.461,"end":3537.927,"text":"我們憲法已經編列了164條優先編列我們教科文的預算然後89年的教育經費編列與管理法然後到我們前幾年才會確定就是說不低於前三年度的稅入淨額平均值法定下限23%"},{"start":3539.167,"end":3551.434,"text":"所以這23%是各級政府那各級政府裡面包含了中央包含了地方到底他們的比例要怎麼樣去分配這個我想是這個公聽會還有每個委員都非常關心的一個議題"},{"start":3553.237,"end":3582.575,"text":"因此才化法修正後四個我們要去思考的一個議題就是大家都說年度地方統籌分配款增加可是剛剛我們我們剛剛的這個老師理事長他也有講那地方它增加增加的幅度是多少那地方跟中央有共識嗎那會不會一些教育的建設它變成要逐萬申請然後前幾上個月的新聞也才說教育團體預估教育經費恐會減少500億那這個訊息它是真的"},{"start":3583.075,"end":3602.023,"text":"還是說是一些計算上面的落差或是一些認知上面的誤解呢然後最重要是剛剛我們趙薇有提到就是我們三帳AQE一下去之後38億每年的經費國產可塑源的食材午餐補助115年期要回歸地方所以地方在才化法之後"},{"start":3602.403,"end":3631.297,"text":"他們每年要去就是支應全部的地方要支應這個38億的三張EQ這個政策啦好嗎那所以省市教育經費我覺得個人覺得還是要回到三個判準第一個是適足性就是錢到底能不能夠支撐到孩子受到良好的教育第二個公平性就是這個議題是我們長期在討論的偏鄉跟非偏鄉非山非市即偏還有六都跟非六都這個我們在財化法下去之後會不會拉大我們所謂的就是這種"},{"start":3632.317,"end":3652.426,"text":"呃成相差距或者是讓成相差距更彌平這個是大家都在討論的議題那穩定性其實就像我們剛剛理事長講的今年有了明年會有嗎後年會有嗎這種經費持續的穩定性才是我們教育持續穩健前行的一個方式因為即便現在台灣就是面臨了一個就是小資歷化的問題但是學生減少"},{"start":3653.146,"end":3669.654,"text":"不等於教育的需求變少 反而是每個學生他可能會要去承擔或是他所要去得到的教育平均經費會更高 因此這個議題值得我們持續關注 那我有五個思考點 第一個思考分擔的比例不要只留下一條總量下限"},{"start":3670.114,"end":3697.896,"text":"比例的問題剛剛我們次長一直在跟我們分享就是比例要怎麼樣定怎麼樣不同縣市會有不同的比例嗎這個部分可以大家繼續思考第二個監督一定要事前有公示事後一定要評估的雙軌到底中央下去的這些潛到地方那地方有沒有按照這些比例去逐額編列並且執行事後的評估機制我們也非常的肯定那正是剛性營運需求的排擠成本特別是水電啊等等之類的"},{"start":3698.376,"end":3722.048,"text":"那如果說可以將這些移運成本思考用於法定下限以外定型編列最少我們可以把偏鄉、特教或是一些相關弱勢的教育列為保障的科目第四點就是基礎委員會我們不僅要開門我們同時也要開窗會議的資料、計算的公式、分擔的數額跟決議的理由我自己個人可以思考是不是要全面公開"},{"start":3722.688,"end":3740.336,"text":"就像我們這個立法院公聽會也是一樣全面都是直播上網 之後還有文書公告如果全面開窗的話會不會讓大家對經費的這個編列的透明程度更具有肯定性這個也是可以思考的一個議題所以提綱五問跟五點思考我想今天最主要談的"},{"start":3740.936,"end":3767.188,"text":"最主要大家去就教跟思考就是說中央跟地方的比例可以怎麼樣拿捏然後讓我們的預算更透明更公開我想分權必須同時與分責以及保障同步進行共同讓中央以及地方的教育更好以上謝謝非常感謝國北教大陳建志教授的建言謝謝您下一位呢有請中華民國政奪學會的丁志仁常務理事"},{"start":3770.148,"end":3770.168,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":3776.854,"end":3805.068,"text":"各位好我今天的說明被有書面資料放在門口請供大家所願那在我今天的那個書面資料的第11、12頁對不對有一些照片那個照片就是6月27號大概有155位教育界各路的精英齊聚在新北的江翠國小一起來聲援我們那個武力華委員柯志恩委員"},{"start":3806.289,"end":3820.362,"text":"這一次提出的教育經費編列管理法修法版本為什麼會有那麼多這是什麼?這是我在教育界是幾年以來已經十幾年沒有看過這種盛況了6月7的時候還包括教師組織、家長組織、社大還有"},{"start":3830.231,"end":3847.054,"text":"那個實驗教育團體都來了十幾年都沒有看到各路人馬那麼齊齊的那麼大陣仗一起一起那有關於呢那天簽到的名單我都附在附在那個今天書面資料附錄裡面絕對沒有糊弄大家對不對真的就是那麼多人"},{"start":3848.195,"end":3864.336,"text":"那個一起出來那個支持對不對吳立華委員范雲委員跟柯正委員的修法版本那請看到我今天書面資料的第二頁就是在這次修法版本大家來支持這個修法版本裡面"},{"start":3866.078,"end":3880.722,"text":"最重要當然就是要支持明確規範中央政府跟地方政府教育經費的籌編責任那我在這邊要稍微澄清一下剛剛萬堅次長提到了財政紀律法第七條"},{"start":3886.803,"end":3907.12,"text":"有做限制那刚刚好不是用于我们这次修法的状况您看在武力法委员跟科专委员的版本里面它里面有其中两个字请注意其中两个字因为财政纪律法规定的是不可以"},{"start":3908.123,"end":3934.31,"text":"增加額度或不可以增加比例而這一次的修法完全沒有要增加教育經費的額度或者是什麼或者是23%的比例他只是加了單數其中這個23應該要如何組成他做了補充規定所以完全沒有財政紀律法的憾格就是"},{"start":3936.22,"end":3958.9,"text":"對對對所以這個我要在這邊做那個稍微做一點說明的那請回到我們回到那個第一頁一開始為什麼那麼多教育界的朋友而且是不分那個背景都跑來都跑來支持這樣一種提案主要就是因為在第一頁上面那個去年8月26號"},{"start":3960.561,"end":3981.613,"text":"主席總署在行政院教育經費基準委員會提出一個公式作為我們今年教育經費分配的依據那個公式也沒什麼太大的缺點它的缺點就是數學上不成立而已那有關於那個公式在數學上不成立的原因過去一年在二十幾個國內的各種論壇 座談會已經討論過我這邊就不展開 對不對"},{"start":3985.515,"end":4010.516,"text":"因为那个不需要很深奥的数据就知道那一个公司不成立那我要谈的是那个公司不成立又作为我们今年教育金被分配的一个依据导致的后果就是我们中央政府在今年的教育预算里面超山了355亿讲但没有错前年财务法修法中央政府的收入有减少"},{"start":4012.884,"end":4032.9,"text":"但是那所以中央政府教育金的籌備責任也因為收入減少而減少那這個減少的額度份額應該多少應該是155億但是就是因為引用這個數學上不成立的公式所以去年主席總署訴求主張要減到500億就超減了345億那結果結果"},{"start":4038.704,"end":4057.315,"text":"就是像剛剛講的,不管是教師、家長、眾人學習、學前高校我們還沒有去進行高校那邊的處理,學前在通通實驗教育,通通受到重創"},{"start":4058.135,"end":4081.556,"text":"所以才會有那麼多教育界的夥伴一起站出來要求對於現有的法律進行補充做更具體的籌編責任的劃分這個我要在這邊做一個說明那我今天提出來的代表這麼多教育界夥伴提端訴求就是四點"},{"start":4083.457,"end":4107.443,"text":"在我今天書面之下第一頁下面跟第二頁上面那第一點講過了就是支持委員會跟柯先生委員的版本第二個就是要感謝其他13個版本說要把23%增加到24%那這個除了什麼除了有財政紀律法漢格的疑慮以外另外一個問題就是"},{"start":4108.479,"end":4130.136,"text":"今年二月行政院教育經費基準委會已經不再續聘教師團體代表家長團體代表跟校長團體代表所以現在整個教育經費基準委會裡面民間的代表只剩我們一位所以如果"},{"start":4132.176,"end":4147.596,"text":"我們強行通過把23%調到24%那麼勢必在那個行政院的主導底下新增的300多億塊400億的交易經費會被全部分配到22個縣市去分攤"},{"start":4149.74,"end":4163.593,"text":"就不会出现一个大家很善良的结果所以我们谢谢这些委员对教育财政有关系但是很可能对我们教育财政无法得到实惠"},{"start":4164.594,"end":4189.978,"text":"那第三個就是 總數現在當然就是說我們可不可以稍微再加一點錢明年變業的我們稍微再加一點錢可以持續使用第一頁最上面那個數學上不成立的公式繼續來分配我們的教育經費那這個教育團體回家討論過以後也認為不行啊"},{"start":4193.859,"end":4218.573,"text":"因為你增加6億是一年的但是如果我們整個交易經濟分配不能依據這種數學上承認有堅實基礎的公式去進行分配的話那後患無窮那今年加6億明年可以減100億啊這個就對大家影響太大了那其他的內容就請參與我的書面資料謝謝"},{"start":4220.094,"end":4233.601,"text":"非常謝謝鄭多學會的丁志仁常務理事給予我們的建言下一位第五位有請第四位有請全國參核工會的全聯會理事長陳明信理事長發言請是"},{"start":4235.942,"end":4256.255,"text":"吳立華召委我們現場的三大會見次長及與會的各位先進我是全國三大公會的理事長陳明信我們負責全國午餐每天大概將近八成的學校午餐的一個供應最近其他午餐很紅因為這個所謂的中原的油品事件會波及其實相當多那我先入主題"},{"start":4256.755,"end":4280.839,"text":"因為這一次跟我有關係的是所謂的三上一Q的部分其實在114年以前透過中央政府一般性補助款補助地方每年大概38億支持學校午餐使用國產食材那其實在去年為止已經高達99%的涵蓋率都使用國產認證食材所以其實我再岔題一下所以目前有地方的縣市議員說"},{"start":4283.78,"end":4293.347,"text":"學校午餐使用到這個所謂的問題有要跟團散業者求償我覺得真的是不可思議的想法也感謝我們張道堅次長在前天媒體採訪時定調說只要廠商合法合規的使用國產相關認證的食材不予責罰團散業者感謝那個張道堅次長那在115年起因為財化法回歸地方政府"},{"start":4308.479,"end":4326.954,"text":"那也感謝22縣市都把所謂的三張EQ的相關補助款納入整個的一個預算所以在115年各地方也開1月開始各地方也順利的在執行這個使用國產資產這個政策但是以目前來講也遇到幾個問題就是剛剛在教育部的這個資料上也提到"},{"start":4328.335,"end":4347.137,"text":"農業部去修訂了使用的使用要點把它改成指南而且這個指南就是地方政府可以因地制宜的去修改沒有全國統一的一個要求其實部分也造成新學期可能會有極大的一個變化我舉個例子好了以目前的情況"},{"start":4348.358,"end":4368.437,"text":"偏鄉中央補助已有多個縣市因排擠因經費排擠的問題刪除部分補助據我這邊全國聯合會所收到的訊息目前至少有四個縣市不再執行偏鄉當時在蘇院長一直朗朗上口的一個非常他在意的政策就是偏鄉跟"},{"start":4369.198,"end":4383.479,"text":"跟都市孩子都要吃得一樣好所謂的這個偏鄉六道菜的政策這部分目前已經有多個縣市不再執行這個政策那再來偏鄉儲工的部分因為我們知道現在所謂的缺工"},{"start":4384.78,"end":4397.806,"text":"的影響其實偏鄉儲供更難聘請所以這個儲供的部分之前在補助上也有對於偏鄉現場的這個儲供的一個補助目前也有多個縣市無法依照現場實際的情況"},{"start":4399.949,"end":4428.177,"text":"去補助這個現場廚工的這個相關的一個津貼所以這部分其實都嚴重造成了這個學校午餐在供應上尤其在偏鄉的這個人員穩定跟食安跟食材的品質因為其實財務法並對22縣市接手了學校午餐這個所謂獎勵金之外今年開始在8月33號開學全國22縣市也免費午餐那也造成了極度的所謂的"},{"start":4429.335,"end":4458.051,"text":"城市的差距 我舉台北市為例台北市一樣午餐的費用包含了三張一Q跟這個所謂的有機青菜有機米的補助伯松的部分高達一天高達92元站在南部的也是六都的縣市一樣吃四菜一湯三菜一湯經費只有56塊92元跟56塊我們不能讓我們的孩子出生時就決定他在學校的資源"},{"start":4459.791,"end":4488.24,"text":"這個資源落差極大所以其實以我們全國聯合會這幾年到日本跟韓國做參觀其實日本跟韓國都是中央地方協力支持學校午餐但我也知道財化法讓中央很多的經費都下放地方但是我還是覺得說中央應該要有中央的態度如果中央沒有對於央午餐有相關的這個所謂的經費的挹注時我覺得地方很難去聽中央的"},{"start":4489.199,"end":4504.168,"text":"所以其實像我在上上個禮拜去到日本參訪抱歉去到韓國參訪韓國也告訴我們說他們其實中央跟地方會去商討我們經費譬如說二兩成比八成那由中央支付兩成地方支付八成"},{"start":4504.588,"end":4525.794,"text":"我們合力的來推動學校午餐的相關政策所以這部分其實也建議我們教育部及行政院其實對於這個學校午餐的支持應該要中央跟地方協力讓全國的不管是偏鄉或者是都會區的孩子都可以享有一份基本一樣的午餐以上是全聯會的報告 謝謝"},{"start":4527.639,"end":4556.465,"text":"好非常謝謝全聯會陳明信理事長所做的發言那下一位第五位我們邀請的是正陽文教基金會的吳宗泰執行長發言請那我們也補充介紹一下到場的委員有蔡春綢委員"},{"start":4562.475,"end":4589.263,"text":"主席各位先進我的書面已經在這邊有印了所以我就不一一念我想第一個問題是我支持調整而且不要被財政紀律法第七條給恐嚇了我們剛才丁志仁先生已經講出他在關鍵文字上面的東西所以我請教育部能夠支持這個立場該修就修"},{"start":4590.373,"end":4614.312,"text":"那麼要修到什麼程度呢在座可能忘記了其實在教育經費的保障除了憲法164條之外中間還有一段時間很多人倡議的是什麼GDP6%在2000年的時候總統大選唯一有一個總統候選人後來當選了他支持的是GDP6%後來在2008年的時候馬總統"},{"start":4617.827,"end":4627.149,"text":"要出來競選的時候他還是把GDP6%放在他的證件而且還細膩的分成說每年增加0.2%大家忘記了嗎"},{"start":4628.735,"end":4648.825,"text":"但是我們知道6%是做不到的而且硬要跟社會搶6%也沒什麼道理因為當初的這個租稅負擔率大概是在12%到12.3%而已所以你說要整個國家拿一半的稅收左右來支持教育好像有點勉強但是台灣現在的GDP到多少到28兆"},{"start":4650.556,"end":4669.846,"text":"當初2000年的時候是10兆10兆跟28兆我們現在是落到用什麼呢不是用GDP而GDP卻是國際共同語言我們用前三年各級政府的稅率的決算各位都知道決算已經是落後指標前三年的平均又是更落後指標"},{"start":4671.018,"end":4696.509,"text":"我們知道股市是領先指標決算一定是落後指標那教育界會要根據前面來擬數字的時候擬出來一定是非常保守證明當初的立法不是對教育進行什麼施捨而且教育界非常的溫和跟敦厚沒有做立場但是我們看到的是即使是我們立法院的正對面"},{"start":4698.052,"end":4720.833,"text":"台大兒童醫院用的是什麼經費?教育經費連軍事教育也可以當教育經費連退伏都可以當退伏經費請問我們國防退伍人員的退伏經費算什麼經費呢?不算國防經費各位只要看我們國家的國防經費每一次提出的數據希望達到GDP3%的通通都不是"},{"start":4722.233,"end":4743.105,"text":"包括退伏經費但是我們的教育能源退伏經費一定被算到教育經費裡面這是什麼道理呢這是欺負教育界所以我想說GDP才是國際的共通語言我們不是要求拉回6%的時代但是麻煩用一下"},{"start":4744.67,"end":4760.868,"text":"當立法院非常重要的通過一些法案的時候你會發現立法院的能量是很大的怎麼會變成被一個前立委所通過的財政紀律法第七條就可以框住了難道他是財政憲法嗎完全沒有道理第二個是"},{"start":4766.636,"end":4792.978,"text":"有關於監督能力跟參與機制在當年大家通過了以後很高興的地方有教審會教審會是在教育基本法裡面通過的但是在本法裡面給它加了一些功能那麼我個人也有參與過地方教審會去審議所謂的台北縣的全縣的中小學各校的教育中長期計畫你知道那個現場資料有多少嗎"},{"start":4794.943,"end":4802.693,"text":"那我問一下就是各個團體有沒有能力去審議這些東西要花多少的能力跟努力才能夠做"},{"start":4804.073,"end":4829.799,"text":"就是我們一方面支持教師組織也好家長組織也好都是基於參與跟學習來參與但是很不幸的是實施不到兩三年以後這些功能幾乎都全廢了各位可以去調查現在七月齁照理說該審就是審了審了之後才能夠對教育部門做建議建議之後才能夠送到議會便利算數送入議會有做嗎我想教育部可以立刻清查啦你知道教育部有做到"},{"start":4833.663,"end":4848.694,"text":"在教育分配生意委員會裡面是設在教育部但是呢他並不是審議個案他是審議所有的補助要點幾十個補助要點我相信沒有人能夠通才去看出他的美感所以我很佩服能夠當委員的人"},{"start":4849.835,"end":4871.537,"text":"第三個是教育經費基準委員會 是設在行政院最初還有行政院副院長來擔任 但到最後就是部長自己來監管晚一晚都是這個行政院才不管你 因為不會鬧出亂子就好了那裡面訂定各種教育經費編列的條件 要求 基準然後框定每一個縣市應該分配多少 它財力到底有沒有成長"},{"start":4872.642,"end":4901.4,"text":"那很抱歉啊連這樣形裡如一讓教師組織也好讓家長組織也好讓校長組織也好共同學習參與的機會都不給嗎我覺得是不要做這樣的倒退的施政那麼再過來是我要說一件事情是我們也呼籲教育界要跟社會上共融融化的融但是也是榮譽的榮因為我們有非常多的校弟跟校舍"},{"start":4902.133,"end":4923.541,"text":"目前大部分都還沒有因應台灣社會發展所需長照缺資源有哪一個學校是伸出雙倍去歡迎長照進來像愛上的玻尿那樣子的老薩工農幾乎沒有即使堅持到生了30個學生還是堅持校地是教育所用有這樣子的嗎"},{"start":4925.08,"end":4935.716,"text":"半導體需要 好不容易找了一個左營國中的廢棄校舍 舊校舍終於可以做清大發展半導體學院的這個高雄分部"},{"start":4936.69,"end":4963.148,"text":"我是說從石門水庫一樣最初是供應農業供水跟工業供水但是慢慢的民生用水更需要的時候自然石門水庫的水源就要提供更多的來使用比例上也會做調整所以當教育界希望外界能夠更關注更支持的時候我也覺得我們希望教育界特別是在學校從事工作的人不管是校長主任老師都能夠"},{"start":4964.585,"end":4976.987,"text":"更注意到整個台灣社會的需求當你把資源跟社會共同享用共同使用的時候當然外界也更樂意把資源給予教育界以上 謝謝"},{"start":4978.442,"end":4994.571,"text":"好 非常感谢正阳文教基金会吴中泰执行长所做的建言感谢您那接下来有请的是第六位台湾教育人员产业总工会的办公室主任陈志杰主任发言请"},{"start":4999.885,"end":5028.061,"text":"主席 市長以及各位教育先進先跟各位致意一下因為本會的理事長楊一峰老師今天有一些臨時狀況他不能出席所以先跟各位致歉那由我來代表那再來就是要跟我們的主席致意一下為什麼要跟主席致意一下因為大家前面都提過主席提了這個法案20年前我的研究所老師許天明老師以前的前國教院院長他提了一個教育財政專書"},{"start":5029.929,"end":5045.739,"text":"他一直提到中華民國教育財政一直不只有換寡還有換不均的問題那20年後我們還是坐在這裡討論同樣的問題所以真的還是要感謝我們趙偉這20年來 也不是說這20年來 趙偉很年輕才18年才這樣這幾年來一直在追尋這個問題 找出正確的答案"},{"start":5052.443,"end":5071.192,"text":"那其實也蠻可悲的我們這幾年來都一直在為教育財政去找出這個解套的方式那這個部分呢今天最主要呃 理事長要我有四點跟各位分享一下第一個就是中央政府的分擔責任一定要法治化"},{"start":5071.852,"end":5095.785,"text":"而且要用法律的明確性去把它律定出來那為什麼要提這一點呢因為去年竹記提了一個很奧妙的公式那個奧妙的公式我可能書讀的不是很多才疏學淺看不懂它的奧妙之處在哪裡那簡言之就是我莫名其妙"},{"start":5096.957,"end":5120.171,"text":"為什麼呢 因為他 財政收支劃分法他把我們原本的73筆中央跟地方的比例變成64筆對 那按比例去劃分的話那剛剛丁老師也提過了嘛 對不對原本是減少3753億的收入按比例只要減少150幾億就可以了但是主計的這個公式"},{"start":5121.311,"end":5138.7,"text":"卻足足減少了500億的教育經費分擔這個部分前面的前輩們都有提到過那結果造成中央政府355億的教育經費超減那這個東西它的緣由在哪裡這個公式的引導的出來的"},{"start":5140.18,"end":5164.349,"text":"邏輯在哪裡我真的看不懂所以在這邊最主要就是要跟各位講說這個中央政府的分擔的責任應該要有法律的明確性不能夠讓他莫名其妙甚至到無法無天的地步無天的地步我們可能沒有辦法我們這群孤城畢竟我們已經被排除在教育基準委員會之外了"},{"start":5165.109,"end":5178.906,"text":"但是無法的部分我們還是可以透過今天的公聽會透過趙薇透過我們的主席的提案去把這個法例給定定清楚這是第一點要跟各位分享的第二個"},{"start":5179.827,"end":5203.257,"text":"我們教育運算不只換果還換不均的問題為什麼以前營養午餐大家都知道我們都可以各縣市都有補助台北市今年沸沸揚揚也要做全面的營養午餐補助但其實台北市不是第一槍其他各縣市其實早早就開始做了"},{"start":5204.755,"end":5231.537,"text":"那這個東西為什麼大家現在才會吵得比較嚴重可能是因為台北市的關係比較疏大遭風但是其實營養午餐這個東西它原本早期我們在第一線的時候它有個安心就學方案提供中低收入戶補助那這個東西變成了地方要去編列的時候它相對的就會影響到地方其他經費的補助"},{"start":5233.838,"end":5262.335,"text":"其他經費的安排那這個部分呢其實我覺得我們是不是要審慎的思考一下有一些中央可以去處理的就不要讓它成為地方選舉的政策性的買票去排擠到其他的部分的經費的編列這個是第二個要跟各位提出來去思考的第三個剛剛教授建制教授也提到過我們今年"},{"start":5263.536,"end":5282.717,"text":"7月開始都會有一些部分的加薪到明年的話就是全面的4%的加薪當然誰不喜歡加薪大家都喜歡加薪但是就跟我們的中央政策分擔責任的那個制度一樣我們期待的是法制化"},{"start":5283.706,"end":5305.706,"text":"明確性而不是三到五年開心就來一次我們期待的是讓所有的老師都能夠對自己的未來有一個明確的藍圖跟規劃為什麼要這樣子提我舉一個我自己切身的例子我外甥的女朋友"},{"start":5307.386,"end":5335.551,"text":"講一下家事今年剛剛從陽明交大研究所畢業進入到外商公司去做一個AI的理工科畢業的月薪什麼都不加加給都不加喔勞健保也都還不扣的狀況下11萬台幣如果同樣的一個碩士來到了國民中小學各位什麼都不扣主管加給也不加"},{"start":5336.667,"end":5364.184,"text":"他的薪水是六萬出頭請問就在座的各位你要選哪一個一個十一萬一個六萬那想當然了大家都會選十一萬這就是為什麼教育留不住人才尤其是理工科的人才但偏偏我們國家又在強調科技島在這樣子教育的根本根本留不住人才的前提之下"},{"start":5365.322,"end":5388.681,"text":"你怎麼樣去延續現在的AI紅利我覺得不可能現在看起來很美妙但是未來這幾年我們在侵蝕我們的老本就因為我們的教育人才不夠吸引所以老師的待遇尤其在理工科的部分要請各位再幫我們多思考一下最後一個我剛剛有提到我們是孤城"},{"start":5389.83,"end":5416.99,"text":"無利可回天原因就是因為行政院教育經費基準委員會的組成運作已經把我們老師還有校長還有家長的名額給排除在外了那我不懂第一線我們最知道經費應該用在何處的人卻被排除在這個議題之外那我真的不明白行政院的這個思考點在哪個部分"},{"start":5417.811,"end":5435.425,"text":"是不是可以給我們一個明確的方向為什麼我們會被排除在外為什麼我們最知道經費短促要應用之所在的人一群團體卻不被他的意見卻不被尊重那以上就是我今天四點的分享跟討論謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":5437.486,"end":5451.449,"text":"好,谢谢台湾交易人员产业总工会的办公室主任陈智杰主任,谢谢您的建言。那接下来呢,我们邀请到的是立法委员蔡春筹,蔡委员进行发言,请。"},{"start":5460.656,"end":5466.801,"text":"主席 各位同仁 還有議會的專家 寫者 教育部及相關部會的官員 各位先進 大家好我是立法委員蔡春草今天我們站在這裡要討論的是交易經費邊內跟管理辦法的一個修法這不僅僅是數字的一個調整"},{"start":5485.997,"end":5514.551,"text":"更是攸關我們台灣下一代受教权教育的品質還有城鄉的一個教育能否均衡的一個發展以及國家未來的一個競爭力的一個很關鍵的一個修法那本席對於今天的一個公聽會提出五大對於公聽會的一個五大提綱提出四個核心的一個思考以及具體的一個訴求第一"},{"start":5515.411,"end":5518.933,"text":"對於提綱的一、二應該切立中央地方的一個籌編責任反對只是將責任推給地方自去年財政收支劃分法修正公佈以後地方財源雖然增加了"},{"start":5533.042,"end":5544.184,"text":"但我們卻很遺憾的看到中央政府隨即的在行政院的一個交易經費基準委員會中將中央的一個交易經費分擔力從12.9%降到11.9%這種把籌備責任強行轉嫁到地方政府的一個做法嚴重的影響了交易預算的一個財政穩定性"},{"start":5561.438,"end":5582.569,"text":"因此本席認同吳立華還有柯資源等跨黨派的委員們提出的一個修法雖然明確應占中央政府收入的比例有一點不同但是大方向以及這個精神都是在釐清教育預算的一個變略的責任"},{"start":5584.15,"end":5591.372,"text":"那只有呢明確的劃分中央跟地方的一個責任建立穩定的一個銜接機制才能夠確保交易的一個運作那麼這個制度建立了以後呢未來政黨輪替不管是哪一黨來執政的時候呢那麼這一個制度就可以一直依循下去那第二呢對於提供三緩緩地方發生高邊掃花的一個確保交易專款專用"},{"start":5613.197,"end":5638.931,"text":"那麼地方財源增加的中央的一個監督機制就必須要更嚴格過去各縣市都有設立一個地方發展地方教育發展基金但實務上有出現地方政府採取高編預算但是減少執行這樣的一個技術的漏洞所以我們在這裡"},{"start":5640.432,"end":5656.258,"text":"是可以來思考修法針對不實的一個編類還有情節重大的一個行為可以來處罰這樣的一個規則徹底的遏止這樣的一個規避教育編者的一個責任的一個動機"},{"start":5658.525,"end":5673.591,"text":"第三 臺灣的教育也正面臨嚴重的通膨危機還有退場轉型的壓力以學校營養午餐為例近年來因為極端氣候還有全球物價的飛漲"},{"start":5676.592,"end":5698.264,"text":"農產品還有食材的價格暴增加上運送成本的上漲、施工等以及氣候通膨的因素已經前面衝擊到校園民生的需求特別是學校午餐國產可素園食材的補助即將回歸到地方政府來負擔各界都在擔心營養午餐會不會日漸不營養"},{"start":5702.187,"end":5726.921,"text":"那我們可以來討論中央設立一個中央發展基金中央教育發展基金一個專長管理的一個可行性那將教育部的一個預算甚於依法滾存並以各縣市的一個地方教育發展基金相互的來配合共同來抑制跨年度還有長期的一個重大教育的一個政策特別是針對於非都會區的"},{"start":5729.322,"end":5751.742,"text":"最後第四對於提綱五本席認為行政院的一個教育經費基準委員會應該擴大的一個參議決策透明而且要接受社會的一個監督但是我們很遺憾的今年行政院教育經費基準委員會竟然排除了"},{"start":5753.004,"end":5770.623,"text":"家长教师还有校长团体的一个代表的一个参与这很明显的剥夺了一个公民参与的机会甚至呢不能够由下而上的一个沟通跟回馈这就是民主倒退那更是对教育工作还有家长的一个不尊重"},{"start":5772.759,"end":5786.347,"text":"那教育經會的一個基準委員會呢決定了攸關於教學的一個資源還有偏鄉師資特教育的一個支持學校行政運作跟學生的一個受教權為何呢將教師將校長還有家長代表"},{"start":5789.188,"end":5802.621,"text":"移除教育政策很需要經會需要更多元的一個代表意見才能夠將經會編列的很精準最後我要說的是教育是國家的一個根本大計"},{"start":5804.122,"end":5825.147,"text":"不能窮教育 也不能哭我們的孩子唯有透過這一次的一個修法將各級政府教育經費預算合計應不低於該年度預算統編時前三年度的一個結算稅率進而平均值之百分比由23%能夠提高到24%"},{"start":5831.508,"end":5853.095,"text":"那我國的教育現場的挑戰日啊日趨多元政府呢應該要有足夠的一個資源來投入啊明定明確的責任然後補齊漏洞擴大參與我們才能為台灣的提出前端性的一個教育政策提高教育的品質為台灣的未來在世界呢"},{"start":5854.079,"end":5868.857,"text":"充滿了一個見證力以上報告 謝謝好 非常感謝蔡春籌委員的發言接下來我們有請第八位全國中學教產工會的張建民副理事長進行發言"},{"start":5882.905,"end":5906.878,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各界教育協議員大家早我是全國高級中等學校教育產業工會副理事長張敬明非常感謝吳立華委員邀請我們全宗教來到這邊也表達一些意見首先我想就現行法規看起來我們整體的教育經費佔GDP的看起來總體經費是有增加但是在比例上是下降的"},{"start":5907.611,"end":5930.092,"text":"那第二個呢就是說以學校現場來講的話我就單獨講冷氣那現在我們的通膨事實上是很嚴重的那為什麼跟冷氣有關係學生是冷氣卡直接插下去就開始吹我們不可能去限制他什麼時候吹但學校原則上在付冷氣費用都是契約容量"},{"start":5931.193,"end":5952.504,"text":"都會面臨到一個問題超過企業容量的時候學校就必須要面臨罰款所以學校會在現場直接考慮操作我可能冷氣要把溫度調高啦我可能要少一台那其實這個對學生來講他的壓力就會很大那其實對學校經費來講排擠的狀況事實上是很嚴重的所以"},{"start":5955.485,"end":5982.439,"text":"也呼應剛才丁志仁常務理事所講的我們目前所講的第一組的這個法案來講它其實是比較合理的它並沒有說要訂多少但是它是一個下限以上都可以所以還是希望懇切的拜託我們中央主管機關教育主管機關可以給學校最大力的一個支持在經費上不要因為"},{"start":5984.76,"end":6011.248,"text":"財化法的關係那我就給地方了那你就自己去想辦法了那第二個的部分就是說也是因為財化法修正之後那看起來我們中央教育的一個分擔的比例事實上是下降的那感覺上我會覺得那中央主管機關是不是覺得說那我錢已經給地方了那對不起我就不管你了那我們很懇切的希望說那中央還是要"},{"start":6012.889,"end":6030.641,"text":"繼續帶著我們關心我們千萬不要覺得說我錢已經下放給地方了撥給地方了那地方自己去處理就好了還是希望中央還是可以持續的在經費上能夠真正的像我們前面幾位先進所講的把這個責任我們做一個法制化"},{"start":6031.361,"end":6058.984,"text":"把一些項目把它列清楚哪一些責任是地方你一定要做到的哪一些責任是中央我還是會去承擔還是會做到一個監督的部分那再來就是說現在也會很擔心說那跨年度的教育經費它的分配是不是會有延續性還是說我今年就完成這個或是明年完成這個甚至會擔心到說地方政府它今天經費編完之後執行的狀況到底"},{"start":6060.785,"end":6084.237,"text":"有沒有落實那這個也回應到我們剛才丁丁所講的我們在中央的地方團體的部分我們教室的團體家長團體也沒有在委員會裡面我們沒有辦法監督了那還好今天有這個系列的公聽會那很多人關心他很多人也來參與他但事實上更多人不知道"},{"start":6087.352,"end":6115.834,"text":"只有我們長期關注只有我們投注很多心力的人他很關心非常清楚我們各個法規的一個變化但很多的人他不知道那可能從新聞媒體裡面片面才知道所以在這邊還是誠懇的拜託我們中央政府地方政府兩邊可以好好的去協調好好的把責任去釐清那今天做出來的經費的一個分配可以很合理的可以很直接的運用到學生的身上"},{"start":6117.756,"end":6125.603,"text":"它費用事實上是可以真正進到學校去的那再來就是考慮到最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":6127.711,"end":6153.816,"text":"還是回歸到財化法那過往地方政府當然他比較困難就是覺得說錢不夠那財化法變了那錢變多了那我們還是很希望最後還是很希望的一個呼應說在我們相關的法規裡面比如說第3條或第10條那到底這些費用他編列足不足夠那今天編列如果不足夠的話他是不是未來要怎麼去"},{"start":6155.191,"end":6168.105,"text":"核實當下當年度要怎麼核實那未來要怎麼去調整那當然我們不希望去走到一個處罰的條款所以我們還是回歸到我們一直在呼籲的一直在強調的把責任釐清"},{"start":6170.267,"end":6190.896,"text":"把條款寫清楚包括剛才講的今天計算公式到底對還是不對我覺得剛好趁著這個機會公聽會的一個時間收集各界的意見希望能夠把這個費用真正用到我們最基礎最根本的學生身上以上的發言 謝謝"},{"start":6193.274,"end":6215.817,"text":"非常谢谢全国中等学校教产工会的张建明副理事长的发言谢谢那么下一位呢我们是第九位有请台北市国小家长联合会的陈建甫副总会长请好谢谢主席各位员各位代表大家好"},{"start":6216.889,"end":6241.927,"text":"那非常感謝讓我們台北市國小學生家長會聯合會可以來這個公庭會發言那以下的發言呢我們簡稱為本會那關於深化財政紀律落實教育正義本會代表廣大的台北市國小學生家長對於強化教育的經費財政紀律與制度監督之議題表示我們全力的支持"},{"start":6244.363,"end":6271.846,"text":"那教育經費的每一分錢都關係到下一代的學習環境與未來那為提升決策透明度並引入社會監督本會提出以下三點的具體建議第一點我們的決策制度應納入使用者的視角納入家長與弱勢教育代表教育經費基準委員會之組成不應僅由財政與行政官員主導"},{"start":6272.987,"end":6296.938,"text":"本會強烈建議因實質納入我們的家長還有教師校長代表並保障特殊教育幼兒教育偏鄉與原住民族的教育之代表席次唯有讓第一線的教育參與者進入體制才能翻轉過去的由上而下的一個僵化分配"},{"start":6298.716,"end":6322.988,"text":"讓預算真正貼近孩子在教育現場的一個真實需求那再來是第二點公視與資料全面的資訊公開建立全民監督機制政府應將經費基準會議資料計算公式及決議理由全面的上網公開過往複雜的財政公視應予以庶民化"},{"start":6326.949,"end":6353.805,"text":"圖表化讓家長與社會大眾清晰知悉各財政公司讓各項的教育預算的編列依據達成真正的制度監督再來是第三點我們明確的劃分並公開各級政府應分擔數額防範地方教育資源遭挪用"},{"start":6354.929,"end":6373.041,"text":"因全面公開中央與地方政府針對各項教育發展所分擔的款項與比例此舉有助於基層家長團體共同監督地方政府確保中央撥付的"},{"start":6375.412,"end":6396.582,"text":"拨付地方应自筹资教育专款专用避免教育经费变相成为地方首长之公关预算然后保障我们的偏乡与基层学校的硬体设备与资源资资资源的不足NOWS可以不受侵害那以上的报告感谢各位的聆听谢谢"},{"start":6398.237,"end":6414.551,"text":"好 谢谢我们的陈建甫副总会长那我在这边宣告一下我们休息五分钟让各位方便一下那等一下呢就有请谢国清常务理事好 现在休息"},{"start":6440.107,"end":6441.687,"text":"當作重力鍊"},{"start":6461.736,"end":6478.789,"text":"這也不好吃沒關係啦我們第一次對啊你也不知道要那個那個時候沒有說因為柴哥已經硬好了是不是所以就不要重印了他對我想說他硬好了沒辦法沒關係啦我們第一次好不好吃"},{"start":6495.563,"end":6496.043,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":6524.57,"end":6527.411,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":6546.989,"end":6550.21,"text":"一碗香菇一碗香菇一碗香菇一碗香菇一碗香菇"},{"start":6581.755,"end":6582.975,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":6605.271,"end":6606.512,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":6621.121,"end":6622.622,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":6645.551,"end":6653.876,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐廳餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐廳餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":6675.084,"end":6675.584,"text":"中文字幕——YK"},{"start":6700.296,"end":6700.316,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":6722.533,"end":6723.534,"text":"OK"},{"start":6749.585,"end":6772.166,"text":"我們現在繼續開會接下來有請台灣家長教育聯盟的常務理事謝國欽常務理事來做發言請吳委員各位大家午安我是台灣家長教育聯盟常務理事謝國欽"},{"start":6774.25,"end":6789.856,"text":"因為我自己在社區大學工作了二十幾年從去年開始就發現社區大學的經費開始被大幅刪減今年又被刪了一次所以我大概花了超過半年的時間在研究我國的教育經費包括地方的"},{"start":6790.416,"end":6807.333,"text":"那我今天的簡報檔就是把我過去研究的針對今天的議題我把它整理出來這張圖是什麼意思這張圖我們的教育經費已經超過9000億了但我們的教育經費並沒有真正被用在教育上頭而是中間有很多的漏洞被"},{"start":6808.194,"end":6835.589,"text":"被留走了首先我國的教育經費有多少呢民國95年的時候是4204億到了今年已經9019億了民國95年的時候到現在我們的學生人數減少了超過25%如果我們從人均比來算的話我們的教育每個學生的平均成本已經超過2.6倍了"},{"start":6838.032,"end":6859.748,"text":"可是我們有沒有感覺我們教育辦得更好普遍的沒有零感覺那到底怎麼一回事如果我們看最近這四年每一年的教育經費都增加將近600億甚至在去年跟今年增加了662億這些錢到底到哪裡去了我們的老師有沒有更多的"},{"start":6860.754,"end":6879.433,"text":"薪水没有我们的学校有没有更多的钱可以去使用没有但到底怎么一回事好那当然我们有一个部分是没有办法避免的因为在教育上头人是最主要的所以我们有所谓的人事"},{"start":6880.174,"end":6895.07,"text":"的部分退休金的部分我覺得這個部分是應該的但有另外一個部分剛剛幾位先進都講了我們每一次選舉的時候就很多的支票出來了我們的最近最紅的叫免費營養午餐"},{"start":6895.911,"end":6924.273,"text":"然後呢教育部叫深深用平板現在很多縣市開始深深有平板然後我最近聽到有一些教育界的朋友說過去那個平板已經開始落伍了要開始更新了然後還有就是我們現在私立學校的大學生每一年也有將近兩萬元的補助就這樣子一直在花所以這些包括人事的存量包括政治的福利造成我們很多的錢就這樣流過去了"},{"start":6926.24,"end":6953.012,"text":"那這一次財化法來了以後我們很清楚有相當大的經費往地方走可是呢中央這邊用了另外一招因為錢往下流了之後我們過去的補助款除了統籌分配款之外還有一般性補助款跟計劃性補助款把所有的一般性補助款原來那些補差短的補弱勢的全部取消掉"},{"start":6953.812,"end":6981.219,"text":"把我們的計畫性補助款就變成一般性補助款那這麼一來的結果會是怎麼樣子剛剛其實也有先進提到了因為過去的計畫性補助款是針對某一些重要的政策要去發展那現在跑到地方去了譬如說以社大來講社大的一些計畫性補助款跑到地方去了那地方那邊被打折了中間給的就是打折的經費那"},{"start":6983.763,"end":7012.458,"text":"社大去跟教育部反映之後教育部只能夠發文給地方請地方一定要給而且要補足原來的差短但地方呢開始有些縣市願意但有些縣市就說我為什麼要去做這件事情這樣一來一往一來一往花了非常多的力氣今年解決了明年能不能夠解決不知道因為明年可能又要開始很多的公文下去"},{"start":7014.406,"end":7030.306,"text":"所以他就造成这样的一个状况就是本来教育部是从掌握现款的资源分配者退化成为失去实质扣款权的催收者他只能用公文去催收所以中央政策的引导杠杆完全失灵"},{"start":7032.175,"end":7059.653,"text":"那这个就是我刚刚在讲的就是本来原来一般性补助款是无条件给地方而且地方是编入地方的预算里头这里还有一件事情编入到地方预算里头要经过议会的政治审查审查以后可能他们觉得哪些事情是不需要的哪些事情是他们要强调的我们中央管得到吗我们中央管不到所以就造成一种不买单的宪政危机"},{"start":7060.919,"end":7087.384,"text":"那我就舉了因為吳委員是來自於屏東嘛我就舉屏東為例屏東因為新財化法增加了大概140億的財源但是因為主計總署的齊頭式大砍砍掉一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款砍掉了一百八十幾萬所以屏東我那時候在看預算我就看不懂啊為什麼明明應該增加的為什麼變減少了所以我花很多力氣去"},{"start":7089.424,"end":7118.177,"text":"去研究結果屏東縣少了40幾萬不只是屏東縣屏東縣只是其中的一個例而已那就是因為我們在中央在處理的時候採齊頭式的方式去處理所以在這個部分就明顯的是都會的縣市憑藉著盈利事業跟人口指標的造成議領但一些農業縣像屏東就面臨實質的失選所以對屏東來講它有40億的缺口它怎麼辦"},{"start":7119.718,"end":7130.813,"text":"他就是咬牙維持本來的法定預算可是對於那些所謂創新的非法定的教育補助他就只好抽回去了那這個就是目前的一個現況"},{"start":7133.203,"end":7158.436,"text":"我們還有一位屏東來的委員我現在正在講屏東所以我們認為說就是在缺乏計畫性補助款的保護傘之下一些弱勢的沒有選票回報的像中生教育社區大學就開始很容易就被刪了那主計總處這邊只能夠宏觀的去做考核沒辦法做微觀的一些調控所以"},{"start":7159.056,"end":7172.585,"text":"那再加上剛剛其實幾位也講了就是我們去年在行政院教育基準委員會裡面用了一個很奇怪的一個公式那公式我簡單講假如今天我碰到經濟蕭條我被減薪20%"},{"start":7175.427,"end":7186.9,"text":"結果我不是叫我全家人說我們今年少每個月少吃兩餐大餐一年少買幾件衣服我是跑去跟學校講說我的孩子現在五天要變四天所以我少叫20%的那個學費"},{"start":7190.222,"end":7215.653,"text":"用這樣的一個公式去算我覺得不但會移校國際而且會移臭萬年那再加上就是所謂的那個那些代表的那個所以我這邊也提出來我們很我想我這個就書面到時候提供給吳委員就是我覺得我們應該要去支持現在吳委員的那個那個法案然後我會增加一些那個條文我再提供給吳委員以上謝謝"},{"start":7217.184,"end":7233.289,"text":"非常感谢台湾家长教育联盟的谢国清常务理事所做的建言谢谢您那么下一位呢我们有请新北市教师会的蔡泰玉副理事长来做发言请"},{"start":7241.447,"end":7265.903,"text":"主席還有與會的各位先進大家好那新北市教師會這邊主張孩子要被三代教育經費北塞青菜那教育經費消失了300多億請中央地方合作一起找回來那我們新北市教師會和日協跟這個協會有舉辦了叫重慶教育經費的保障的一個亂談活動"},{"start":7267.824,"end":7288.234,"text":"當天有150多位的教師、家長甚至其他關心教育的人士一起來參與強烈表達了經費便利的管理責任大家中央跟地方一起要負責這次2015年的時候中央的教育總預算"},{"start":7290.715,"end":7308.32,"text":"一次扣減了500億超減300多億那這裡對於中央對地方對國教對右教對中生還有對高教通通有很大的影響也感謝當天范雲委員跟吳立華委員都有"},{"start":7308.78,"end":7324.913,"text":"自專文來肯定支持各自任委員也有派代表來做參與感謝各位專家學者的一些鼎力相助那我們要表達的是我們有幾點訴求第一個是財政要有秩序教育要有永續"},{"start":7325.874,"end":7353.971,"text":"那教育經費是應該長期穩定可預定的可保障的機制那不能讓學校和學生來受年度預算的一個波動影響所以我們認同許多議員所提出的教育預算由23提到24%的修法意見這也是為了配合總統所提出的0到18歲的國家養成長津貼少子入化營運措施這些都會加重"},{"start":7355.831,"end":7377.656,"text":"這種教育經費的一些負擔那有更足夠的經費可以做營運第二個是有關於中央跟地方政府的分工應該更明確讓每一份的教育預算都可以進入校園現場那這一次的中央在14年的時候又是16年這一比有12.9%突然突降是11.9%以他"},{"start":7382.637,"end":7399.063,"text":"主計總處奇怪的算式算出來一個很奇怪的金額應該是平均分攤的變成由教育預算去吃掉所有幾乎被吃掉的預算餘額這一部今年的編列的15年預算案送出來"},{"start":7400.305,"end":7428.146,"text":"道地法院的是民意上的檢列金額是908.7億是各部會唯一檢列幅度最大的這是在行政院的預算書裡面可以看到的雖然名目上有很多是檢列到地方的一般補助款可是實際上呢很多是專案補助款移過去的那專案補助款去哪了不見了"},{"start":7430.21,"end":7451.24,"text":"所以我們主張要明定中央跟地方的責任這個%數不論是柯真委員所提的12.98%或者是主席這邊所提出的12.4%不管是哪一筆 它至少是一個可以保障的一個程度"},{"start":7452.604,"end":7477.676,"text":"那第三個是教學設備和教學更新的創新不能做一個減少那這一次因為這樣子的緣故中央減少了專案補助的這一個部分所以很多的那個像剛剛聲稱有平板電腦設備或者是營養午餐的剛剛3Q一張的補助還有"},{"start":7478.917,"end":7505.285,"text":"那個照明水電冷氣費 以前是專案編列專案型補助的 現在通通是一般型補助 各縣市必須自籌相關的經費那這些對地方來講 它都是一些負擔那第四個是教師家長校長組織應該共同參與 還持續監督今年的那個行政院教育預算基準委員會"},{"start":7507.322,"end":7518.46,"text":"把往年多有的教師家長還有校長團體代表全部刪除那行政院跟教育部的新聞稿更悍然指出這一個"},{"start":7519.502,"end":7543.713,"text":"不是我們這個經費法這邊教育經歷法所規定的法定代表所以我們要求既然教育部說我們不是非典型代表那就修法把這些事實上在教育第一現場的人放進來更多教育現場第一線的意見能夠提出來"},{"start":7544.753,"end":7553.969,"text":"再來回顧整個教育經費的編列歷史2000年面臨了朝野高度政治對立但是各政黨能捐盡己力"},{"start":7555.274,"end":7581.749,"text":"將教育視為國家的共同利益所以完成了教育經費編列與管理法是我國的立法典範那這部法令 法規已經釋定四分之一世紀了應該重新檢討 翻修那2026在這個國會殿堂我們希望大家可以一起為未來教育努力那不管是朝野 藍 綠 白委員大家一起同力合作"},{"start":7582.809,"end":7590.452,"text":"25年前我們的GDP是10.3兆去年來到了27.5兆今年預估更高達33.5兆我們希望這些錢能夠讓"},{"start":7598.18,"end":7627.46,"text":"我們的教育能夠在這些能夠可以打實的用在教育上讓孩子的教育教育不要窮再次呼籲教育不能成為政治角力的犧牲品孩子的未來不能被預算打折教育的經費不能承擔私營的後果請大家共同支持教育經驗編列與管理法第三條第九條第十條十三條等等的修法讓教育預算"},{"start":7628.901,"end":7650.203,"text":"朝优化有保障有监督能有序的发展方向来前进以上是我个人意见谢谢好非常感谢新北市教师会的蔡太玉副理事长的建言那接下来补充介绍两位现场的立法委员一位是中嘉宾委员"},{"start":7652.341,"end":7658.326,"text":"再來是賴世保委員那接下來我們就有請賴世保委員來做發言請"},{"start":7665.394,"end":7691.86,"text":"謝謝主席以及中委員以及各位先進讓我有機會來表達一點我的個人的看法那麼今天談到的是教育軍費的編列跟管理法大家都知道其實現在老師不容易當了不管小學 中學 大學都一樣會出到一個問題大家看到常見的問題是老師都不愛做行政職"},{"start":7693.24,"end":7722.335,"text":"大學老師也一樣啊要當系主任的不要啊他也不在乎那些那些什麼什麼家旗主要重點就是我們的環境越來教育環境越來越惡化其實我用這兩個字啊用很重啦這惡化是什麼老師得不到他的尊嚴然後呢又受制於現在整個少子化影響很大每一個小孩子都是包"},{"start":7723.399,"end":7745.999,"text":"所以如果一點點對於老學生有點多的要求其實下場都會翻攤我今天 以第一案來講就是因為我最近見到一個選民服務案已經扯了好久了教育部長官我也找了幾次就一個私立大學的教授因為嚴格要求學生要有績效"},{"start":7750.455,"end":7761.918,"text":"被學生評老師打零分了我們請教育部的次長仔細的聽一下我這個案子打零分了 打零分了學校就挺拚了 因為打零分"},{"start":7769.338,"end":7786.646,"text":"學校根據這個這個老師權利沒有了世數找人也找我們教師公會替他出聲也找我我幾次協調不容易協調啊因此我要提到的是老師應有的尊嚴要禁錮"},{"start":7788.12,"end":7816.983,"text":"因為特別是私立學校不管是大學 中學都一樣很在乎生源學生的來源在少子化的情況之下越來越嚴重這是第一個我要訴求的第二個我要訴求的是因為經費編列我特別講出來我覺得應該大幅的編列大幅的給老師加薪啦大幅給老師加薪到立法院決定沒有問題"},{"start":7818.467,"end":7828.371,"text":"幅度加多少只要教育部編得出來 我們就支持但是我要特別強調對大學的老師應該要加那我幾個數字給各位看我就比較台灣的GDP3.4萬到4.2萬韓國3.6萬到3.7萬日本3.2萬到3.5萬"},{"start":7849.003,"end":7855.847,"text":"這個就是為什麼我們的政府現在很自豪的說我們的人均GDP高於日本 韓國但是對於新加坡 香港"},{"start":7860.578,"end":7876.769,"text":"澳門他們的GDP是5萬到9萬我們還是輸的可是我們看助理教授的年薪就是也許剛來到博士不管國內的博士起薪台灣是110萬到130萬韓國140萬到170萬日本130萬到150萬新港澳280萬到480萬"},{"start":7887.337,"end":7888.101,"text":"差這麼多我們幾乎就是新港澳的一半"},{"start":7892.54,"end":7910.105,"text":"比日本 韓國也都還低就比Fresh的助理教授的數字是這個樣子是這個樣子我要講那邊 助理教授的起薪台灣110萬 韓國140萬 日本130萬新加坡 香港 澳門280萬就是 然後再比較一個比較資深的鄭教授"},{"start":7920.888,"end":7949.356,"text":"就台灣160萬起薪然後韓國250萬日本210萬新港澳460萬但是最高的最高的台灣最高的220韓國300日本250以及新港澳最高大概要830這個數字都顯示台灣的大學教授"},{"start":7950.521,"end":7961.223,"text":"薪資長期偏低特別是國立大學教授在我們這次年改的過程之後大學教授他的年改堪稱原來的六成"},{"start":7963.007,"end":7979.951,"text":"幾乎一半多一點而已但是因為國立大學教授知道吧大學教授一般面子臉皮比較薄啦面皮比較薄 不敢出來講也不敢出來抗議但是我今天要替他們來發聲我覺得現在來講因為我們下午還要再討論這個相關的要大學法的規定等等今天的教育經費的編列"},{"start":7989.704,"end":7993.188,"text":"我要講的一個結論就是我們應該重寬重塑來便利這一部分"},{"start":8000.526,"end":8024.761,"text":"立委們絕對不會為難而且絕對會大力支持你們多少只要主席總書沒有意見我們就沒有意見而且對於擔任行政職的一些的津貼老實講也很久很久沒有調整了另外一部分這個拜託我們的張廖次長你再聽一下"},{"start":8026.721,"end":8056.02,"text":"這是我們老師啊 大學老師啊去參加口試啊口試一經費 調整的不僅僅沒有增加還減的以前一個還兩千塊 現在變一千五啊而且是不管地方喔今天有的教授住淡水他跑到新竹去口試關那個車錢 你看他花多少錢他去中午就一千五如果就一個學生就一千五"},{"start":8057.796,"end":8074.522,"text":"所以你看到我們的有一些該給老師的其實都是比較苛刻 比較嚴格來對待所以我今天那句話就結束我今天的發言今天是我很少到教育委員會但是今天看到的有些大學"},{"start":8075.382,"end":8102.219,"text":"特別是有公視力大學教授都來找過我他們怎麼看我怎麼心酸特別在年改之後更心酸只有六成只有國立大學教授只有六成我以前就在國立大學教授擔任了快二十年我在政大器官所教過我很了解那種新生其實大家都是一個榮譽感加上有好的退休的一個"},{"start":8103.427,"end":8104.467,"text":"請各位指教 謝謝"},{"start":8129.676,"end":8156.65,"text":"好謝謝賴世寶委員的發言那下一位呢我們有請的是新北市新莊社區大學的主任秘書杜雲齊杜祖密請好那個各位委員然後還有先進們大家好我是新北市新莊社區大學主任秘書然後我姓杜這樣子我覺得"},{"start":8158.007,"end":8169.327,"text":"要來談這個說真的就是剛剛聽到很多都是這個國中小然後國高中小的這個相關不管是家長會教師還是教育產業人員都發了很多的意見"},{"start":8171.533,"end":8195.384,"text":"中生教育佔教育部的總預算才2%所以我們是如此的邊緣就更不用講了因為這個預算裡面2%裡面的預算裡面還有一些是跟樂齡中心還有跟其他一些所謂的中生教育其他機構的預算所以社區大學在這裡面的佔比又"},{"start":8197.366,"end":8217.092,"text":"更低我們是如此的邊緣啊就是身為一個那個我可以很誠實的跟大家講身為一個主任秘書社區大學主任秘書一個北漂青年來台北工作二十幾年我的薪水我的人力薪水還不到五萬"},{"start":8219.102,"end":8244.653,"text":"你看我們如此的邊緣但是我們又說我們現在要面臨超高齡社會終身教育非常重要但是我們預算上面是如此的可憐好那為什麼我今天還是要出來講這件事情呢因為我覺得總體而言教育預算的上游的責任的這個管控其實是非常重要的我舉個最簡單的例子這就是我們在社大第一現場遇到的財化法通過之後我們中央的經費被刪減"},{"start":8246.954,"end":8269.768,"text":"然後中央就跟我們說你要去找地方然後發了一紙公文跟地方說要補齊 補足差額有些新北市很幸運啦 新北市願意補啦然後但是問題是其他縣市兩手一攤說沒有辦法 不願意補 沒有錢我覺得這是很現實的問題啊因為責任歸屬沒有談清楚啊所以就會變成現在這個模樣啊所以"},{"start":8277.367,"end":8303.173,"text":"所以我非常支持就是那個科委員跟那個委員 歡迎委員的那個提案把責任說明清楚然後另外我再趁這個機會因為我覺得前面大家講的東西已經非常多了我針對終身教育我還是提出我自己的想法之外而且我還有一件事情我覺得非常重要是因為透過這一次的這樣子的財務的變化我開始意識到一件事情"},{"start":8304.073,"end":8327.407,"text":"除了我們去了解地方的預算的編列之外我這邊還要倡議就是各地方縣市的相關教育團體應該也要去研究我們地方財政的內容尤其是教育預算部分因為我們教育預算我一直到我今年我自己去看了新北市的教育預算我才知道說原來社區大學是被分在地方文化"},{"start":8328.087,"end":8348.797,"text":"基金會裡面我以前都不知道所以我覺得這個非常重要如果我們要回到就是要有一個監督的機制的話那應該是民間跟政府就是一起攜手來做這樣的監督而不是就是應該要做這樣子的公開開放讓更多的公民可以參與去了解這裡面的內容"},{"start":8350.057,"end":8371.913,"text":"然後至於裡面這次在會議裡面一直不斷談到一個公司的問題我覺得這個公司真的需要理清楚因為因為我數學不是很好但是我聽下來我都覺得那個公司怪怪的就是尤其是我後來又跟那個國慶老師又稍微問過一下我就覺得怎麼會怪怪的然後還有一個更重要一點就是"},{"start":8374.014,"end":8397.64,"text":"我認為就是那個什麼責任啦責任把責任跟規則說清楚我覺得很多第一線的公務人員我們在跟新北市政府溝通的時候他們也會講到說中央要有中央要給我們一個規範啊這樣子我們才知道怎麼做事啊那我們就叫我們去問中央問中央的時候中央叫我們要叫地方加油那你們"},{"start":8398.78,"end":8420.97,"text":"我們民間團體我們如此的邊緣我真的不知道要說什麼話我覺得這個是把責任明定清楚然後再來就是我才知道說中央沒有一個中央教育發展的基金就是沒有像地方有個地方文化發展基金那我也覺得應該在面對因應這樣的角度的時候未來應該有類似這樣子"},{"start":8422.651,"end":8447.048,"text":"的基金會我覺得它會有助於就是地方引領中央引領地方讓地方更清楚知道我國接下來要發展的教育方向最後因為我想不要再耽誤太多時間最後我要說教育是終身的大事從我小時候開始我媽都跟我講說要好好念書教育非常重要"},{"start":8447.628,"end":8475.811,"text":"那同樣的等到你的年長之後到我老了之後我也很希望終身教育它還是非常重要的一塊那我在此做一個呼籲以上謝謝好謝謝新北新莊社區大學的杜雲齊杜祖密的發言謝謝您下一位呢我們有請的是全教總聯合會暨全教會的葉青齊理事長有請謝謝"},{"start":8496.764,"end":8499.319,"text":"窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子"},{"start":8500.58,"end":8525.295,"text":"教育經費要穩定 教育現場才安心主席 以及在座各位教育先進 大家好我是全教總及全教會的理事長 葉慶祺老師首先我要代表全國的老師感謝這一次所有提案關心教育經費的委員們 尤其是我們的主席"},{"start":8527.816,"end":8537.364,"text":"那依照教基法的第五條提到的就是第一項各級政府應該要寬列教育經費保障專款專用"},{"start":8540.782,"end":8563.277,"text":"那這邊的各級政府指的應該是我們的中央以及地方就是要合作嘛要合理的分配運用教育資源那對於偏遠及特殊的地區尤其這一塊剛剛要優先補助這一塊剛剛也有先進提到在這個中央地方合作當中有些錢不見了"},{"start":8565.233,"end":8586.602,"text":"那第二項所提到的是教育經費的編列英語保障它的法律訂定之就是教育經費編列管理法所以在去年的才化法修正之後誠如剛剛我們新北市的教師會夥伴還有好幾位教育先進都有提到"},{"start":8589.178,"end":8609.704,"text":"中央以及地方應該負起交易經費編列與管理的責任但是這一次中央一口氣減列了500億的交易經費那其中如果依照比例的話他其中有高達345億是屬於超減的部分那這筆預算直接重創了高教"},{"start":8611.343,"end":8636.468,"text":"國教、幼教還有剛講的終身學習教育以及實驗教育那這個呢結果呢最後一定會導致目前教育現場的有一些秩序大亂會影響到孩子的受教權再者我們依據教育經費編列與管理法的第九條第一項第一款教育經費計算的基準的立法目的"},{"start":8637.708,"end":8662.344,"text":"那行政院應該要設立教育經費基準委員會那剛剛很多先進也都有提到這一塊我表達教育現場人員其實大家都了解什麼最基本的老師 家長 校長的代表都不見了呢因為以往在這個委員會都有"},{"start":8663.71,"end":8691.155,"text":"這三類的代表但是在115年今年行政院的一指令下就將教育現場的聲音全部都排除掉了所以針對這一次的教育經費編列與管理法的修法全教總計全教會這邊提出了三項的呼籲第一個教育經費編列與管理法必須符合教基法第五項的精神"},{"start":8693.291,"end":8721.272,"text":"以確保教育經費的法定保障不可因為中央裁員減少而被犧牲尤其是試射全國一致性的事務舉例來講現在校園設備的更新還有數位學習推動等等等這些的經費第二個全國學生的受教權不能因為地方財政能力不同而擴大教育的一個落差"},{"start":8723.499,"end":8739.072,"text":"針對財化法修訂後 未來中央與地方教育事務以及經費的編列與管理 一定要按照教基法第四條的精神裡面提到 人民不分性別、年齡、地域、族群等等等"},{"start":8740.236,"end":8763.552,"text":"他接受教育的機會 教育機會一定要平等尤其對於原住民身心障礙者以及其他弱勢族群的教育應該還要再去考慮他的自主性以及特殊性所以在法令要特別的保障 協助其發展最後還是提到要修訂"},{"start":8765.049,"end":8773.47,"text":"教育經費編列管理法第9條第二項那裡面所提到的委員的一個部分覺得一定要明確的"},{"start":8774.758,"end":8798.593,"text":"加入 納入全國性的教師組織家長團體以及校長團體的代表要建立起第一線教育人員教育工作者跟教育夥伴共同來參與教育經費的決策跟監督機制以提升我們政策決策的品質跟教育的信任"},{"start":8799.734,"end":8822.705,"text":"所以最後再重申窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子教育經費一定要穩定教育現場大家才安心以上 謝謝好 謝謝群教總群教會的葉青琦理事長的發言謝謝您下一位呢我們有請鍾嘉賓立委來做發言請主席在場關心教育的夥伴"},{"start":8828.618,"end":8849.989,"text":"首先用這一句話來向各位教育夥伴致意我常聽說 福魯貝爾說教育之道無他 礙於榜樣而已說得非常理想 但是理想豐滿 現實很骨感難道教育的圓丁照顧我們國家幼苗 靠著榜樣跟水"},{"start":8851.633,"end":8878.624,"text":"就夠了嗎?其實還有肥料,還有很多的設施所以當我們今天在討論教育經費編列與管理法的時候其實我們是非常務實地在討論這些很庸俗的物質的條件怎麼樣去豐富我們的愛與榜樣所以呢,我們來看一看這套法它在什麼樣的背景之下被催生的"},{"start":8879.751,"end":8894.218,"text":"當年我在國民大會的時候我們將15%的教育經費很清楚的在憲法裡面明白的表達那麼我們的丁丁我們他當年一起努力"},{"start":8894.918,"end":8923.999,"text":"後來才有這個教育經費編列與管理法規定要21.5%看起來框定了一個預算的數額所以接下來就是誰的事接下來大家要處理三件事情要確定中央跟地方政府有足額編列對不對我們剛剛看到教育部啊財政部都在講這個啊財化法之後不能只要求中央足額編列啊地方也要啊誰編多誰編少糟糕了兩個加起來要21.5就開始大家在推了"},{"start":8924.679,"end":8948.552,"text":"第二個呢 是要核實編列這些項目是不是真的用在教育上可是在核實編列的同時 決定它是不是我們要的項目他說哪個項目多 哪個項目少哇 說到這裡就傷感情了這跟我想到的 我講兩個例子一個就是我們台灣引以為傲 享譽國際的健保健保一個特色 叫做總額支付制"},{"start":8949.568,"end":8973.723,"text":"對不對當總額框定了那麼各科各科的醫師就在爭奪在每個科別下的健保給付我看那個場景彷彿就是在今天的情況在場我們覺得有家長團體就要覺得或者說終身教育或者說營養午餐或者說各式各樣的大學教育跟國民醫務教育大家就在討論說哪一邊比較重要哪一邊要分得比較多這就是問題來了"},{"start":8977.985,"end":8990.9,"text":"當你框進總文的時候好像接下來就是分配的事情要怎麼去分配可是我覺得這個法裡面呢還有一個最重要的問題就是有效使用的問題有效使用才是我們教育編列"},{"start":8993.042,"end":9007.06,"text":"與管理法的核心你這些項目分配了之後是不是達到效果呢就跟我們的健保一樣今天健保在不同的科別當中我們去挪移效果在哪裡是國民健康的維護"},{"start":9008.294,"end":9025.107,"text":"所以我是覺得單單就編列與管理來討論似乎我們需要有一個評估教育的效益剛剛不小心提到了健保我這兩天跟前署長有討論到他說現在健保的危機在於我們的門徵幾乎佔比太高"},{"start":9025.928,"end":9046.287,"text":"住院給付占比太少人家說現在醫事進步了啊應該很多一日手術不用住院治療啊其實這涉及到商業保險的問題住院才給付嘛不住院商業保險不給付了大家在討論的議題但這位前署長說問題要問的健保的目的當初不是要管大病不管小病嗎"},{"start":9047.288,"end":9074.195,"text":"當初我們說部分負擔是要透過部分負擔讓使用者要付費但是保險是保什麼保大的風險不是保日常平常的消費所以他說當住院給付的比重下跌的時候我們發現這個健保的資源用在我們的感冒發燒這些日常生活的小病小痛真正性命攸關的大病重大疾病有沒有得到適當的照顧那才是保險的精神"},{"start":9075.08,"end":9096.582,"text":"他這番話陣容發聵啊我拿來跟大家參考一下在我們的教育現場我們有沒有思考到到底這些項目的分配有沒有符合我們全體國家教育的目標這個我們來想想看另外剛剛不小心講到了營養午餐跟大家介紹除了健保一個領域之外我去到另外一個國家我最近從那邊回來叫做印尼"},{"start":9097.793,"end":9125.912,"text":"印尼的前總統佐科威他後來提拔了一個跟他的對頭一個軍事強人應該說是一個軍人一個將領他叫做蘇比安托蘇比安托他來當印尼的總統他最大的政見叫供應全印尼的學童午餐印尼有多少人大家知道嗎2.8億人口他要達到這個政策目標要耗費他們國家資源的6%"},{"start":9128.567,"end":9152.384,"text":"結果呢 民眾很期待 總統上台要希望全民都有營養午餐可是營養午餐開始實施的時候呢 必併一大堆本來印尼它在聯能政治部分 就是在亞洲排名比較後面的它的公餐的系統 不像台灣 我們有相對良好的食安跟管理出了一大堆 弊案 貪腐"},{"start":9153.735,"end":9174.961,"text":"而我們的教育經費如果說21.5%拿6%來支應午餐大家覺得這符合我們的教育效益嗎所以當我們在思考說哪些項目要納進來的時候我們要反省說到底我們的教育效益要怎麼衡量剛剛在我之前的賴思寶委員他講了一個重點我覺得非常好就是教師的待遇"},{"start":9176.195,"end":9186.644,"text":"教師是我們教育現場當中不可能用AI去取代的一個份子你會希望未來你的孩子是由AI來教他還是由真人的教師來教他"},{"start":9187.785,"end":9214.157,"text":"難道我們要用AI來做愛語榜樣嗎當然是教師嘛所以教師的待遇當然要提高啊但是當我們把教師待遇提高的時候餅就這麼大那我們要怎麼去處理其他的分配呢我再講個跟印尼有點關係的就是剛剛也有委員提到少子化在半個世紀前後的差別在戰後嬰兒潮從1945年到1965年我也是其中之一"},{"start":9215.424,"end":9239.722,"text":"我們在奧運的時候表示什麼 當國家實施國民教育的時候啊那麼多的人需要國民教育 國家資源那麼少他雨露均沾 而且呢 他沒有辦法照顧每一個人所以那時候我們的教育啊 強調的是什麼 競爭跟爭別啊只有相對資質好的 有機會往上抬升只有認真孩子呢 才有辦法得到更多的教育資源 不是嗎聯考就是這樣子啊 我們都是這樣來的啊"},{"start":9241.311,"end":9256.721,"text":"那個時候啊 重點放在哪裡 重點放於孩子那麼多 我們是淘汰制啊就像有一片鳳梨田 鳳梨那麼多 在熱帶你挑什麼 挑品質好 甜度夠的 你再來賣 再跟主席爭取一點時間"},{"start":9258.647,"end":9279.308,"text":"所以如果你是要賣鳳梨啊你大概把鳳梨分級這個生吃的好一點的做鳳梨酥更高檔的做鳳梨巧克力最高檔的那種萬眾選一的來做鳳梨香筍因為可以賣最高錢鳳梨就是這樣子所以在鳳梨風產的國家鳳梨是淘汰制的"},{"start":9280.305,"end":9303.84,"text":"但是如果我們的孩子是少子化 是寶石 是礦石的時候那麼你會覺得有鑽石礦的淘汰制嗎哎呀 這個鑽石礦不好 我不要了 我只挑好的來加工 不是當原料稀少的時候 加工是重點所以當我們看寶石加工的時候 你不會把寶石淘汰你會著重在雕刻師的手藝"},{"start":9305.083,"end":9311.289,"text":"在教育現場孩子如果是礦石是寶石老師就是這個雕刻師啊"},{"start":9312.199,"end":9339.707,"text":"你寧可雕刻師的手藝壞,雕壞了你的礦石還是希望說任何的礦在精巧的雕刻師的手中都成為光輝燦爛的寶石呢?當然是後者嘛所以以寶石來形容現在的掃紙畫國家不是在稀少的原石掃紙畫去做淘汰跟甄別而是要去強化這些寶石、雕刻師的手藝跟技能"},{"start":9340.467,"end":9368.935,"text":"那當然你不能用香蕉的價格香蕉來聘請香蕉只能聘請到猴子不能聘請到獅子啊當然我們有歧視樹獅子的意思啦通常講這句話意思是說你付多少錢就能拿到多少能力的人來為你服務教育也是如此但是如果當我們提升教育待遇的時候我們來看一下現在教育現場這個情況教徵很難考啊但是在職的教師都想逃亡啊"},{"start":9370.12,"end":9393.85,"text":"這怎麼回事?因為我們的設計對教師提供的機制、經費的分配有了問題當我們提升待遇的同時,我們是增加了求職的競爭但是我們目前在職的競爭會是未來在我們教育現場另外一個必須要面對的未來我們在教育現場面臨淘汰競爭的不是孩子"},{"start":9394.85,"end":9411.401,"text":"是老師是老師因為孩子越來越少不可替代老師呢你當然要花高興請好的來但是請來了這個和尚會不會念經還是看這個孩子有沒有表現有沒有潛心向佛有沒有一心向善"},{"start":9412.282,"end":9434.514,"text":"所以後面的職場的競爭就非常的重要因此當我們在討論教育經費的編列的時候我個人這邊提出要提高對教師待遇的提升但是也要強化教師在職場的競爭如果再說得更白一點路過一點不怕老師們不高興就是太粗了"},{"start":9435.694,"end":9447.77,"text":"如果沒有足夠的待遇大家把教師視為一個鐵腕腕那麼大家就要求保障跟待遇都是普普但是當我們提高待遇的時候我們就可以把競爭強化"},{"start":9449.585,"end":9472.58,"text":"不是在入職的競爭不是在求職的競爭而是在職場的競爭教師的競爭從哪裡看呢從學生的學習表現看學生的學習表現不再是我們決定他可不可以往上去獲得更多的教育資源而是學生的學習表現用來評量要不要讓這個教師有更好的教師來帶這個不可替換的孩子"},{"start":9473.32,"end":9498.768,"text":"所以在今天我斗膽的藉此我們談教育經費編列與管理法我們來重新思考今天談的不只是教育資源它如何經費怎麼編列項目怎麼核實中央各地方怎麼分配而是要談有沒有辦法一個有效的衡量這些教育資源投入的效益而當中我還是主張最應該大力投入的就是教師的待遇"},{"start":9499.741,"end":9517.094,"text":"但是我們相對的要提高教師不管是大學教師還是國民教育階段的教師應該他們在職的時候的競爭讓最優秀的教師留下來照顧我們國家最稀少最不可替代的像寶石一樣珍惜的下一代"},{"start":9517.634,"end":9545.942,"text":"以上來這裡誠懇的來救救我們教育界的工作夥伴希望在我們的崗位上可以跟我們昭偉一樣出生自教育關懷教育現身教育我們共同來完成我們台灣我們理想中的教育謝謝好非常非常的感謝宗嘉斌委員的發言那今天工廳會修法工廳會的最後一位發言呢是高雄市教師職業工會的李雅文理事長請"},{"start":9550.287,"end":9578.81,"text":"好 主席各位委員與會的教育先進大家好我是高雄市教師職業工會的理事長李雅雯今天我要代表地方教師的立場來針對這個教育經費編列與管理法的修法來提出我們的一些建言這兩年的財化法的修法造成國家財政制度的動盪其實它連帶影響到了對教育經費的保障然後教育經費的本質它是投資未來而非一般性預算的消耗當前財化法修法帶來有了中央與地方"},{"start":9579.27,"end":9594.649,"text":"發扯的衝擊其實已經影響到教育現場的正常運作顯然為了應對這一個局面已經20年未修正的教育經費編列與管理法有迫切調整的必要然而關靠提高整體教育經費保障的比例那個是不足夠的"},{"start":9595.31,"end":9620.154,"text":"更重要的是要確保中央與地方的分配比例以防止中央與地方互推責任最終犧牲的是教育的現場我們的立場很堅定無論中央與地方如何調整分擔比例教育的基本開銷與學生的受教權都不能成為這場財政博弈的籌碼我們要求的是一個穩定的、透明且能讓各級學校安心辦學的財政保障各位這次的衝擊是不分成績"},{"start":9621.855,"end":9642.995,"text":"不只是技術型高中設備更新嵌入停滯從市區的指標學校到偏鄉小校甚至是提供特教服務的學校現在都面臨無所依據狀態不明的集體焦慮以高雄市的技術型高中為例過去中央穩定支持了充實教學與實習設備計畫在2015年度的預算轉型中中央不再普及"},{"start":9643.355,"end":9670.616,"text":"而地方政府卻沒有相對應的常態性編列可以補上考量禁止教育時做教學有其失效與安全性若地方政府未能及時銜接編列地方的配套學生就會面臨實習設備老舊與產業界脫節的困境至於其他計劃經費雖然依循國教署程序的占用原系統申請及審核但因為未來補助款是改由地方政府負擔在補助的基準與分擔比例上"},{"start":9670.796,"end":9692.572,"text":"尚未公告前各校根本就無法安心編列下學年度的校務預算長期來看將造成各級學校校運作空轉的困境例如我們高雄市一一四學年度的國中增至學務能力就是在這樣橋不定中央與地方分擔比例的情況下一直延誤到下學期才核定執行只執行了一兩個月就時間就到了"},{"start":9693.212,"end":9715.744,"text":"為什麼演變成這樣呢 這裡有兩個問題第一個 補助機制的黑箱化財務法修法之後一併修正了中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法於是原本公開的中央對22縣市一般性補助款編列期期其中包含對教育經費的數額全部被刪除變成模糊的中央機關補助的總額 地方政府拿不到"},{"start":9716.224,"end":9742.834,"text":"一確的教育經費輔助的資訊自然無法落實教育預算的專款專用於是中央就跟地方互相拉扯第二 教育經費基準委員會的功能空洞化長期以來我們這個委員會其實建立了一套地方政府一般教育經費試算項目及公式這個是對我們的教學品質的專業的保障然而今年行政院竟然直接繞過委員會的審議自行分配了各項基本需求"},{"start":9743.334,"end":9771.125,"text":"甚至毫無預警的直接拔除了原先20年來都擔任委員的教師團體教師組織、家長及校長團體代表的席次各位這個就是行政濫權是對民主價值的一個破壞但我們連基本的教育經費需求公司都不透明、不公開為何我們如何期待各縣市政府也能負起教育的責任呢鄭朵學院的研究數據顯示2015年度中央直接削減了300多億的差短補助這是一個警訊"},{"start":9772.225,"end":9796.081,"text":"我們擔心的是當中央與地方開始推卸分擔比例時學校的資本門經常門業務費營養午餐水電費等等這些基本設施等等的會成為地方預算審議時最先被排擠的對象我們呼籲在這次修法中必須建立教育經費零空轉的機制教育經費的撥付必須具備法律上的優先順序只要我們的學校還在運作教學還在進行"},{"start":9797.202,"end":9825.81,"text":"我問財政機制你們要如何調整中央與地方政府都必須確保經費到位不能因為雙方的行政爭議讓我們學生跟老師陷入無名之炊的窘境面對財化法修法後的動盪我們呼籲立法院在教育經費編列與管理法的修法中必須落實以下三項核心訴求以建立穩定的財政防護網首先行政院教育經費基準委員會不能淪為行政單位的橡皮圖章我們要求將"},{"start":9826.83,"end":9851.89,"text":"納入教師家長校長等第一線代表的規定法制化免得我們教育部就說我們反正沒有邀請他們也是合法的來確保決策過程不僅有專業官僚的參與更有直接面對教學現場的利害關係來落實透明的決策再來就是中央地方明確化分攤比例針對中央與地方政府的教育經費責任必須明定"},{"start":9852.27,"end":9871.201,"text":"明確的分擔比例不能再任由財稅變動而造成責任歸屬的模糊地帶讓各級政府有藉口逃避對教育投資的義務那第三個要建立經費優先撥貨與銜接機制我們強烈要求在法律中要規定即便在中央與地方財政的分擔調整期"},{"start":9871.641,"end":9897.614,"text":"學校的基本校務運作經費包含業務費、水電設備及弱勢輔助經費等等必須具有法律上的優先撥付義務我們知道現在中央輔助地方的相關的規定裡頭已經把這個優先撥付的教育的義務已經刪除了那我們希望可以恢復另外我們要求中央與地方政府要共同負擔年代的責任來確保我們的學校校務發展不會因為財稅制度的調整而產生斷鏈"},{"start":9898.735,"end":9924.372,"text":"各位 教育是國家與城市未來發展的底氣如果我們讓一所學校的校長因為經費不明而不敢添購一台設備讓一位老師因為行政預算未定而無法規劃下學期的課程讓特教與弱勢學生失去穩定的輔助資源這就是教育治理的嚴重失靈我們要請各位委員展現高度將我們公聽會裡頭的重要訴求納入修法條文之中"},{"start":9925.713,"end":9939.307,"text":"請不要讓全國各地的學校因為這場財政法規的變動而淪為空腸的受害者為我們的學生及基層教師留下一條穩定專業透明的教育財政之路謝謝大家"},{"start":9942.185,"end":9967.413,"text":"謝謝李雅雯理事長今天非常感謝我們總共有16位專家學者還有各個我們的教育組織單位協會還有立法委員共同就教育經費編列與管理法的修法去做一個建言發言等一下我們也會邀請財政部"},{"start":9968.513,"end":9986.054,"text":"国发会行政院主席总处教育部依序的来针对今天大家的发言去做一些回应今天本席担任主持我也稍微去做一个总和性的发言"},{"start":9987.155,"end":10001.611,"text":"其实大家都很清楚我们的宪法把国家的权力分配给中央跟地方所以其实地方自治的权限它的强度也是非常的高"},{"start":10002.512,"end":10029.686,"text":"我们可以从很多地方看到刚才各位也有提到但是光是像过去几年我们看到代理教师寒暑假没有薪水这件事情有一个县市开始做了之后我们会发现几乎每一个县市就会跟进那对中央来讲也非常的困扰可是最后我们透过修法去明定保障"},{"start":10030.586,"end":10047.128,"text":"那今天我們為什麼會安排這一場公聽會也是因為我們看到這個才化法出來了之後呢開始出現很多的問題啊我舉一個簡單的例子來講像是有一個縣市"},{"start":10048.61,"end":10064.998,"text":"他原本他的六十点多亿的经费呢才化法之后变成了两百零八亿多就突然暴增了也使得他的一般补助款或计划型的补助款呢他的那个财力分级呢"},{"start":10065.799,"end":10081.421,"text":"本来是五级啊变成一级可是各位要了解有一些很简单的钱像以我们园民会有一个园家中心放在地方其实那也不过是一年一千多万的事情"},{"start":10082.222,"end":10102.267,"text":"可是可能地方政府就会非常的计较虽然他钱变很多了但是他会很计较哇为什么我要用一级那以后我怎么办所以地方政府的想法我们没有办法去预期控制所以我们感受到说未来这样的情况可能会越来越严重"},{"start":10102.847,"end":10124.839,"text":"因此我們是不是應該透過教育經費編列與管理法來去做這樣的一個法令的一個強制規定所以特別在這個地方那我們也很清楚知道其實這種狀況如果我們從過去的法源來看因為早期我們會覺得國家在動用經費的時候"},{"start":10126.34,"end":10142.454,"text":"其實可能會因為想要多一點的建設經費多一點的軍事經費往往就去犧牲了教科文的經費所以當時我們就很清楚知道憲法第164條就去明定可是後來政府又發現說"},{"start":10143.715,"end":10162.168,"text":"好像沒有彈性要動用這些錢沒有彈性所以在徵修條文的時候1997年呢又去把這樣的一個不受憲法第164條規定的限制又把它寫進去那大家又很擔心了所以呢到了2000年呢又來了一個"},{"start":10163.028,"end":10190.541,"text":"立法教育经费编列与管理法再去做明定那当然因为后来实施了12年国教所以呢也有经过两次针对这个比例的一个修法啦但是我要承认啦虽然各位可能不觉得那个但是因为毕竟财政纪律法在108年出现之后其实我们也觉得很困扰因为"},{"start":10192.722,"end":10206.869,"text":"確實他就是違反了財政紀律法那很容易到時候就變成不附屬或者是要去釋憲這樣的一個局面那我覺得對修法的本意來講其實是創造了很多的障礙跟門檻"},{"start":10208.61,"end":10224.885,"text":"所以我個人本性我是沒有想要去碰這件東西所以我其實只是想說就一些我覺得應該一定要做的地方修法也就是在第三條的部分去做了一個其中"},{"start":10225.706,"end":10246.756,"text":"中央政府教育經費預算應不低於該年度預算籌編時之前三年度中央政府決算稅入淨額平均值的12.4%所以意思就是說中央地方就劃定責任他們各自分擔那如果以我12.4來講的話"},{"start":10248.777,"end":10274.287,"text":"那地方就是10.6就是有这样明确的一个分担那另外呢在第十条的部分像第一项去明定明列各级政府应以自由裁员为准就是刚刚我讲那个例子那第四项规范无正当理由不执行预算及高边少花之限是扣减补助款那在第五项的部分纳入主计总处的责任"},{"start":10274.787,"end":10303.517,"text":"那另外在第13條第二項呢希望有一個中央地方共同設立發展基金那能夠去合作一些例如像食農教育啊實驗教育啊終身學習這一類的那我本席是做了這樣的一個修法那我就做這樣的一個說明那最後還是要跟各位講因為談到這個經費編列我總是心心念念的就是我們的這些少數啊弱勢啊偏鄉啊"},{"start":10304.577,"end":10315.778,"text":"其实才化法的时候个人人为言轻啊我讲了质询不下十次但是意义都实现了为什么呢因为像原住民人口少"},{"start":10316.909,"end":10336.935,"text":"那過去我們是大幅度因為人口少所以地方政府不會重視我們經費不會花在我們身上所以我們過去幾十年都是大幅的依賴中央的補助可是呢財化法之後移出很多的錢到地方就會變成我們跟中央的爺爺奶奶要錢的時候他會說"},{"start":10338.075,"end":10364.7,"text":"我錢已經給你爸爸媽媽請你去找爸爸媽媽要可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我因為我是那個最小最醜的那個孩子所以我覺得這個部分其實透過修法來去明定責任我覺得是蠻重要的一件事情所以今天非常謝謝大家共同來去做這樣的發言那現在呢我就依序邀請第一個就邀請財政部來去做回應請"},{"start":10369.494,"end":10370.501,"text":"是我們的羅瑞紅專門委員請"},{"start":10376.33,"end":10399.122,"text":"主席各位委員跟與會先進大家好那今天就針對討論提綱有涉及財化法修正後的財源增加的一個情形部分來簡要說明那因為財化法修正後115年度地方政府獲配的一個統籌分配稅款規模已經擴大到8841億元較114年度相對是增加4165億元"},{"start":10404.585,"end":10417.264,"text":"因為這個統籌稅款是屬於地方政府的稅客收入屬於地方的一個自有裁員所以對地方政府推動教育的一個自治事項應該是有相當的一個注意"},{"start":10418.786,"end":10435.747,"text":"那至於今日的一個與會學者專家有提及到才化法修正後地方自由自由裁員的一個增加那中央在相應的一個教育的一個經費補助以及中央及地方的一個經費編列的一個"},{"start":10438.15,"end":10457.078,"text":"相关调整的一个情形那因为这个部分是涉及到中央与地方的一个教育经费支出权责一个调整那是由教育部跟主机总处来规划办理所以这个部分财政部是尊重教育部跟主机总处的一个规划以上的说明"},{"start":10459.295,"end":10469.269,"text":"好谢谢财政部的回应那第二位呢我们邀请的是国发会社会发展处的苏爱娟专门委员请"},{"start":10472.456,"end":10492.479,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位先進大家好那本會有榮幸受邀列席本次的修法公聽會首先感謝各位委員還有各位剛剛各位團體代表從教育現場的實務經驗就教育經費的編列以及中央與地方政府籌編的責任等等提供寶貴的意見那近年來其實"},{"start":10493.56,"end":10517.18,"text":"教育经费已经逐年增加各级政府也持续挹注资源落实各项教育政策那其实像教育经费攸关国家常体的竞争力发展至关重要但我们也需考量说教育经费仍已有保留适度的弹性让政府可以有能力依实际的需求然后及施政的优先顺序适时的调整资源的配置"},{"start":10517.981,"end":10539.888,"text":"此外面對那個少子女化的一個跟數位轉型等等的趨勢教育需求也會持續的變化為能兼顧教育發展的需求與教育整體資源的配置有關教育經費編列的最低下限以及中央與地方政府的分攤比例本會會尊重教育部跟行政院主計總署等全職機關的整體評估與規劃以上簡要的說明謝謝大家"},{"start":10544.8,"end":10555.415,"text":"谢谢国发会的苏爱娟专门委员第三位我们邀请行政院主计总处公务预算处的王潜凯专门委员来做回应请"},{"start":10561.207,"end":10585.499,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位先進代表大家好那主席總書這邊簡要做個補充及說明政府的施政其實每一項都有它不可以替代的重要性那不論是國防、治安、教育、防災、醫療、社會安全而且在因應時代及國內外政經情勢變化下必須要保有彈性以使各政事之間的排列優先順利並且能夠"},{"start":10586.619,"end":10613.759,"text":"那個妥善的調整資源配置因此在財政紀律法下面會去規定不得增訂固定比率來保障特定經費主要就是考慮以上的以上的需求如果每項正式都以固定比例來框定固定支出勢必會造成施政的僵化甚至無法完成籌編預算因此現行的教育經費管理法規定的23%的比例是在"},{"start":10614.68,"end":10637.479,"text":"財政紀律法修正通過前就已經存在的而且這個比例是隨著稅入為母數來變動所以已經會隨著國家以及經濟的發展能夠自然的成長相較於其他上面所提到的各項攸關全國人民生命財產安全的各項重要支出已經屬於相當優厚了因此我們還是建議能夠在現行的規定下"},{"start":10638.38,"end":10666.193,"text":"就整體的教育經費以及資源配置來加以優化讓政府的每一塊錢都能用在島口上至於財政收支劃分法修正之後中央與地方的教育經費分攤比例我們是考慮整體的中央減少的稅務佔全國稅務的比例用整體的考量部分來計算一列地方的教育經費的結果以上簡要說明"},{"start":10669.439,"end":10686.426,"text":"谢谢行政院主席总处的王前凯专门委员那最后呢我们还是回到教育部号我们邀请我们的张亮万坚次长来去做回应最后的总结谢谢谢谢主席各位委员各位与会出席的先进我想今天听了"},{"start":10686.966,"end":10709.589,"text":"今天這個公聽會第一個我要感謝所有今天來參加的我們的教育相關團體的代表我相信讓全國中央不分中央地方的教育經費能夠逐年穩定的增加能夠不要因為一些政治的動盪或者法令的衝擊造成教育經費的不穩定我想"},{"start":10710.31,"end":10732.308,"text":"今天教育部是站在跟各位教育團體同樣的立場這點我想我一定要跟大家表達謝意那第二點就是說大家在談的時候都談到了中央財政收支發放法的衝擊我也跟各位承認我過去從民意代表從地方到中央然後到了教育部我在去年跟主席總書跟行政院跟各單位開會的時候確實為了這個衝擊我們在"},{"start":10738.673,"end":10754.529,"text":"調撥各單位的預算的時候確實受到很大的一個壓力那我也要跟各位表達就是說譬如說剛才提到社區大學那個補助的事情那社大這邊中山市給我的資料是其實前一年度呢編列的預算是3.73億那"},{"start":10757.392,"end":10781.093,"text":"他們也不想減可是因為每個單位都被分配到要減所以已經不知道怎麼處理了後來把這個基本的補助是維持的但是獎勵的補助0.56億但5600萬是減掉了那當時呢我要跟大家報告說在我們財政收支發展衝擊之後我們所減劣的預算其實也跟地方政府的教育單位開過會而且我們"},{"start":10782.714,"end":10809.511,"text":"昨天才開完這個全國各縣市局處所長的一個會議其實教育部絕對也跟地方縣市教育局的局處的這個立場是一樣我們也很擔心這些法令的衝擊造成對這個經費預算編列的時候的一個衝擊所以我們當時在剪列了之後呢也跟地方充分的開會跟他們講哪些要回編到地方的預算那同時呢也寫了這個"},{"start":10810.752,"end":10838.152,"text":"去年是比較晚啦我必須承認去年因為那個衝擊很大所以在調整之後呢找地方開會的時間比較晚有的到好像八月所以造成地方政府在編列的時候確實會造成有些預算他沒有編列回編喔那我們呢其實包括今年嘛今年還速度喔就四月的時候也根據地方這個反應所以我們也函文給地方政府說你們一定要回編喔那"},{"start":10839.947,"end":10867.473,"text":"剛才有與會先進說他就不理你怎麼辦所以這個這個也是我們在裁判法衝擊下中央跟地方事權在這個轉換的過程裡面造成的這個不方便也跟大家致歉就是說這個確實我們也努力在協調那也好幾度希望中央能回邊但是裁判法只有4165億到地方去地方的裁員確實有沒有增加確實增加所以大家可以看到每個縣市都宣布營養午餐免費"},{"start":10868.453,"end":10897.472,"text":"所以地方首長願不願意在某些已經移到地方的這個項目裡面他們願不願意去回邊重視這個教育的預算來說短一些城鄉的差距等等呢我覺得這個呢是各位關心的議題也是未來教育部會再去努力來適應這個衝擊我們怎麼樣子來讓這個教育經費能夠分配的更好的努力的方向所以各位提了很多譬如說我想中央的教育預算以我個人經驗來講"},{"start":10898.973,"end":10923.646,"text":"中央的預算是充分透明的被監督啦 坦白講在立法院是高度被監督那教育團體來這邊開公聽會的次數我相信大家是可以感覺到的那剛才有與會先進講說我們怎麼樣透過地方也一樣你有相對應應增加的裁員他的被透明度的監督其實這個監督不是要去分中央地方而是讓地方的教育首長"},{"start":10925.404,"end":10945.017,"text":"不會因為中央的首長不重視教育或比較重視教育而得到的這個編列的預算會有差異這個是我們站在教育的立場我們都希望中央跟地方的教育經費越多越好我想這個是我們同樣的一個想法我剛才舉那個例子是說"},{"start":10946.673,"end":10968.065,"text":"其實真的是受到中央財政法突然的衝擊造成很大的一個在調挪預算的時候很大的一個衝擊那最後呢我要跟大家致歉就是說今年的那個教育機會那個相關的委員會沒有把家長團體或者說這個教師團體或者校長團體那也是因為財化法在討論的時候認為說哇"},{"start":10969.646,"end":10995.908,"text":"這個很複雜是不是多一點過去在主計總處啦或者預算單位裡面因為它沒有明定團體的代表所以那個成員的代表當時在思考的時候確實也是因為財化法的關係所以希望多一點地方政府的當過那個有財政經驗或者是那個中央政府帶過主計經驗的能夠一起來談論那我也跟大家表達說我們在因為那是一年一聘"},{"start":10996.488,"end":11019.174,"text":"那因為大家的聲音非常強烈不管有沒有修法我想我們明年的教育經費的基準的這個委員會一定會把三個團體的代表都納入這是我今天來這邊跟大家做回應最後呢是不是要在中央的這個教育經費編列管理法裡面明定中央的責任跟地方的責任呢我們聽大家的意見然後也會充分跟中央來"},{"start":11020.641,"end":11036.123,"text":"行政院這邊來討論是否應該訂定會比較有利我們當然不希望說台灣的GDP在高速成長的時候教育經費那個12.9或者23會變成一個天花板而不是地板我認為那是地板"},{"start":11037.725,"end":11065.122,"text":"如果奠定了之後會不會反而造成這個一個好像我達到就好了就像當年我們在修特教法的時候我們那時候想要增加他媽的講可是後來因為那個紀律法那個財政紀律法的關係所以我們後來也是用附帶決議的方式要求年年增加所以我想在這一方面今天真的聽了大家的這個發言我們也感觸良多也會把大家的意見收集起來最後強調我們"},{"start":11066.943,"end":11090.789,"text":"站在教育的立場教育部當然希望每年的教育經費能夠穩定成長能夠越高越好能夠跟地方一起努力讓教育的資源精確地用在每一個孩子的身上最後呢關於老師待遇的調整我這邊也要跟大家報告雖然已經公布了那或許大家覺得還不夠也認為說應該要納入一個公式化調整"},{"start":11091.329,"end":11115.041,"text":"這個我們都尊重因為這不是在今天的討論範圍但是因為很多人提到在方向上我們是一致的會朝這方面來努力謝謝大家謝謝好非常謝謝次長做了非常具體的回應那再一次的感謝各位今天來參與修法公聽會給我們很多寶貴的意見那我相信今天的公聽會不是結束"},{"start":11115.621,"end":11133.271,"text":"它是一個開始那各位提供的寶貴意見我們都會很審慎的在未來的修法上我們都會來做一個依據那也許我們還會有修正統一之類的因為今天聽完了之後我們還會去做調整那我相信"},{"start":11136.393,"end":11152.592,"text":"會有好的一個進展在這邊也提醒大家現場備有便當離開時請帶走雖然明天有可能颱風降但是我們今天下午其實還有另外排一場大雪法的"},{"start":11153.092,"end":11180.949,"text":"公聽會很忙所以如果各位有興趣也可以留下來聽那我在這邊今天宣告今天上午的公聽會到此告一個段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天各位的發言內容跟所有的書面資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及所有出席的與會人員"},{"start":11181.989,"end":11193.771,"text":"參考 謝謝大家現在宣布散會謝謝等一下我們有一個合照 合照慣例的要一個合照那分上下排好不好"},{"start":11216.643,"end":11218.146,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}