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教育局文化委員會第18次全體委員會議事錄"},{"start":1605.4,"end":1607.76,"text":"時間中外民國1月5年6月29日"},{"start":1607.76,"end":1610,"text":"上午90至下午13分"},{"start":1610.32,"end":1611.84,"text":"1月5年7月1日"},{"start":1611.84,"end":1614.16,"text":"上午93分至下午30分30分"},{"start":1614.36,"end":1615.8,"text":"1月5年7月2日"},{"start":1615.92,"end":1618.24,"text":"上午94分至下午8點"},{"start":1618.36,"end":1620.36,"text":"8時48分"},{"start":1620.6,"end":1622.6,"text":"地點本案清潔樓101會議室"},{"start":1623.08,"end":1625,"text":"出席委員羅志強委員等14人"},{"start":1625,"end":1627.52,"text":"類似委員許中信委員等13人"},{"start":1627.52,"end":1629.92,"text":"類似人員6月29日教育部政務次長"},{"start":1630.28,"end":1632.28,"text":"張廖萬尖率同有關人員"},{"start":1632.28,"end":1635.0800000000002,"text":"7月1日運動部部長李洋率同有關人員"},{"start":1635.0800000000002,"end":1637.92,"text":"7月2日文化部部長李遠率同有關人員"},{"start":1638.4,"end":1640.4,"text":"主席羅昭吉委員評委"},{"start":1641.06,"end":1642.58,"text":"6月29日報告事項"},{"start":1642.58,"end":1645.06,"text":"宣讀上次會議室決定意識度確定"},{"start":1645.06,"end":1646.34,"text":"討論事項審查"},{"start":1646.34,"end":1648.78,"text":"委員蘇欣田等20人擬居國民教育法"},{"start":1648.78,"end":1651.02,"text":"第三條條文修正草案等十案"},{"start":1651.97,"end":1654.3300000000002,"text":"本日會議有羅志強委員等15人"},{"start":1654.3300000000002,"end":1655.0900000000001,"text":"提出質詢"},{"start":1655.0900000000001,"end":1656.53,"text":"軍軍教育部政務次長"},{"start":1656.53,"end":1658.53,"text":"張廖萬尖及相關人員及其答復說明"},{"start":1658.53,"end":1660.29,"text":"另一委員葛如鈞徐信穎"},{"start":1660.29,"end":1661.8100000000002,"text":"提出書面質詢決議"},{"start":1661.8100000000002,"end":1663.41,"text":"一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1663.41,"end":1665.69,"text":"二對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料"},{"start":1665.69,"end":1667.77,"text":"及答復部分請相關機關"},{"start":1667.77,"end":1669.25,"text":"儘速以書面答復"},{"start":1669.25,"end":1671.97,"text":"三國民教育法部分條文相關修正草案"},{"start":1671.97,"end":1673.77,"text":"定期繼續審查"},{"start":1673.77,"end":1675.5700000000002,"text":"經表決通過提案一項"},{"start":1675.5700000000002,"end":1676.97,"text":"通過臨時提案一項"},{"start":1676.97,"end":1678.25,"text":"7月1日討論事項"},{"start":1678.25,"end":1681.05,"text":"繼續審查15年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1681.09,"end":1683.8899999999999,"text":"有關運動部及首署單位預算案等6案"},{"start":1683.8899999999999,"end":1684.4099999999999,"text":"決議"},{"start":1684.4099999999999,"end":1687.53,"text":"115年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":1687.53,"end":1689.49,"text":"運動部及首署單位預算案"},{"start":1689.49,"end":1691.73,"text":"審查環境審查結果如下"},{"start":1691.73,"end":1693.37,"text":"稅務部分第二款第1"},{"start":1693.37,"end":1694.49,"text":"189項照列"},{"start":1694.49,"end":1695.93,"text":"第3款156"},{"start":1695.93,"end":1697.77,"text":"及157項均照列"},{"start":1697.77,"end":1699.93,"text":"第4款202項照列"},{"start":1699.93,"end":1701.37,"text":"第7款199"},{"start":1702.21,"end":1704.0500000000002,"text":"至200項均照列"},{"start":1704.0500000000002,"end":1706.45,"text":"稅出部分第18款第1項照列"},{"start":1706.45,"end":1709.01,"text":"本項通過決議128項"},{"start":1709.01,"end":1710.25,"text":"第2項照列"},{"start":1710.25,"end":1712.49,"text":"本項通過決議48項"},{"start":1712.49,"end":1713.45,"text":"第27款"},{"start":1713.45,"end":1715.3300000000002,"text":"知鄉市及縣市政府第9項"},{"start":1715.3300000000002,"end":1717.8100000000002,"text":"第1目的及第2目均照列"},{"start":1717.8100000000002,"end":1720.13,"text":"215年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1720.13,"end":1722.8500000000001,"text":"有關運動部主管運動發展基金預算案"},{"start":1722.8500000000001,"end":1724.93,"text":"審查環境審查結果如下"},{"start":1724.93,"end":1726.25,"text":"運動發展基金"},{"start":1726.25,"end":1727.97,"text":"基金來源基金用途"},{"start":1727.97,"end":1729.65,"text":"本級短促均照列"},{"start":1729.65,"end":1730.93,"text":"節繳公告無類數"},{"start":1730.93,"end":1733.45,"text":"補官預算無類數通過決議25項"},{"start":1734.09,"end":1736.05,"text":"315年度行政法人"},{"start":1736.05,"end":1738.45,"text":"國家運動訓練中心預算案審查環境"},{"start":1738.45,"end":1739.97,"text":"擬具審查報告審"},{"start":1739.97,"end":1741.4099999999999,"text":"提請院會公決"},{"start":1741.4099999999999,"end":1743.49,"text":"不需交由黨團協商院會討論時"},{"start":1743.49,"end":1746.77,"text":"由羅昭級委員廳委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":1746.77,"end":1748.97,"text":"業務總收入業務總支持"},{"start":1748.97,"end":1751.4099999999999,"text":"本期剩餘均照列節繳公告無類數"},{"start":1751.4099999999999,"end":1753.53,"text":"轉投資計畫無類數固定資產"},{"start":1754.2,"end":1756.24,"text":"建設改良擴充照列"},{"start":1756.24,"end":1757.92,"text":"通過決議8項"},{"start":1757.92,"end":1759.64,"text":"415年度行政法人"},{"start":1759.64,"end":1763.5600000000002,"text":"國家運動科學中心預算案審查環境審"},{"start":1763.5600000000002,"end":1766,"text":"擬具審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":1766,"end":1768.0800000000002,"text":"不需交由黨團協商院會討論時"},{"start":1768.0800000000002,"end":1771.6000000000001,"text":"由羅昭級委員廳委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":1771.6000000000001,"end":1773.64,"text":"業務總收入業務總支出"},{"start":1773.64,"end":1775.8000000000002,"text":"本期剩餘均照列固定資產"},{"start":1775.8000000000002,"end":1778.24,"text":"建設改良擴充照列"},{"start":1778.24,"end":1781.52,"text":"國庫增撥基金而無類數"},{"start":1781.52,"end":1783.1200000000001,"text":"通過決議13項"},{"start":1784.29,"end":1786.57,"text":"114年度及115年度行政法人"},{"start":1786.57,"end":1788.29,"text":"國家運動產業中心"},{"start":1788.29,"end":1790.53,"text":"發展中心預算案審查環境審"},{"start":1790.53,"end":1792.57,"text":"擬具審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":1793.23,"end":1795.43,"text":"不需交由黨團協商院會討論時"},{"start":1795.43,"end":1798.43,"text":"由羅昭級委員廳委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":1799.13,"end":1801.17,"text":"業務總收入業務總支出"},{"start":1801.17,"end":1802.8100000000002,"text":"本期剩餘均照列"},{"start":1802.8100000000002,"end":1805.41,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充照列"},{"start":1805.41,"end":1807.49,"text":"國庫增撥基金而無類數"},{"start":1807.49,"end":1809.5300000000002,"text":"國家運動產業發展中心"},{"start":1809.5300000000002,"end":1811.45,"text":"15年度預算案"},{"start":1811.45,"end":1814.5300000000002,"text":"業務總收入業務總支出"},{"start":1814.5300000000002,"end":1816.17,"text":"本期剩餘均照列"},{"start":1816.17,"end":1818.5300000000002,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充照列"},{"start":1818.5300000000002,"end":1820.49,"text":"國庫增撥基金而無類數"},{"start":1820.49,"end":1821.73,"text":"通過決議5項"},{"start":1821.73,"end":1824.2900000000002,"text":"6對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料"},{"start":1824.2900000000002,"end":1826.0900000000001,"text":"或為其答覆部分請相關機關進俗"},{"start":1826.0900000000001,"end":1827.25,"text":"以順便答覆"},{"start":1827.29,"end":1829.53,"text":"7在不影響文藝前提下"},{"start":1829.53,"end":1831.25,"text":"授權議事責任1"},{"start":1831.25,"end":1833.29,"text":"115年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1833.29,"end":1835.73,"text":"審查報告及黨團協商之範例整理"},{"start":1835.73,"end":1837.77,"text":"8115年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1837.77,"end":1840.29,"text":"有關運動部及首署單位預算案"},{"start":1840.29,"end":1843.21,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款"},{"start":1843.21,"end":1844.65,"text":"運動部主管部分預算"},{"start":1845.73,"end":1847.97,"text":"運動發展基金互使單位預算案"},{"start":1848.85,"end":1851.77,"text":"115年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心"},{"start":1851.77,"end":1854.05,"text":"國家運動科學中心預算案"},{"start":1854.05,"end":1856.37,"text":"114年度及115年度行政法人"},{"start":1856.37,"end":1858.61,"text":"國家運動產業發展中心預算案"},{"start":1858.61,"end":1860.37,"text":"全部審查完整"},{"start":1860.37,"end":1862.61,"text":"通過臨時提案2項"},{"start":1862.61,"end":1863.85,"text":"7月2日討論事項"},{"start":1863.85,"end":1866.2099999999998,"text":"繼續審查115年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1866.2099999999998,"end":1869.53,"text":"有關文化部及首署單位預算案等五案"},{"start":1869.53,"end":1872.1299999999999,"text":"決議115年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1872.1299999999999,"end":1874.33,"text":"有關文化部及首署單位預算案"},{"start":1874.33,"end":1876.61,"text":"審查完整審查結果如下"},{"start":1876.6499999999999,"end":1880.49,"text":"第二款第196項至201項均照類"},{"start":1880.49,"end":1885.4099999999999,"text":"第202項至204項均5類數"},{"start":1885.4099999999999,"end":1886.6899999999998,"text":"第205項照類"},{"start":1886.6899999999998,"end":1888.57,"text":"第206項5類數"},{"start":1888.57,"end":1892.2099999999998,"text":"第三款第162項至171項均照類"},{"start":1892.2099999999998,"end":1892.81,"text":"第四款"},{"start":1893.62,"end":1895.1,"text":"第208項照類"},{"start":1895.1,"end":1896.3,"text":"本項通過決議項"},{"start":1897.38,"end":1901.14,"text":"第209項至218項均照類"},{"start":1901.14,"end":1901.9,"text":"第7款"},{"start":1901.9,"end":1904.66,"text":"206項至216項均照類"},{"start":1904.66,"end":1906.66,"text":"稅出部分第20款第1項"},{"start":1906.66,"end":1908.38,"text":"除第10目"},{"start":1908.38,"end":1909.3000000000002,"text":"暫照類"},{"start":1909.3000000000002,"end":1912.1000000000001,"text":"事所屬非營業特種基金審議確定"},{"start":1912.1000000000001,"end":1913.0600000000002,"text":"在行調整外"},{"start":1913.0600000000002,"end":1915.0600000000002,"text":"簡略第5目第1節"},{"start":1916.06,"end":1918.06,"text":"1000萬元請以均照類"},{"start":1918.06,"end":1919.46,"text":"本項提案"},{"start":1920.41,"end":1922.41,"text":"5案保留送院會處理"},{"start":1922.41,"end":1924.5700000000002,"text":"本項通過決議173項"},{"start":1924.5700000000002,"end":1926.3300000000002,"text":"第二項照類"},{"start":1926.3300000000002,"end":1927.8500000000001,"text":"本項通過決議25項"},{"start":1927.8500000000001,"end":1928.8100000000002,"text":"第三項照類"},{"start":1928.8100000000002,"end":1930.8100000000002,"text":"本項通過決議13項"},{"start":1930.8100000000002,"end":1932.8100000000002,"text":"第4項照類"},{"start":1932.8100000000002,"end":1934.25,"text":"本項通過決議3項"},{"start":1934.25,"end":1935.3700000000001,"text":"第5項照類"},{"start":1935.3700000000001,"end":1936.6100000000001,"text":"本項通過決議4項"},{"start":1936.6100000000001,"end":1938.21,"text":"第6項照類"},{"start":1938.21,"end":1939.93,"text":"本項通過決議3項"},{"start":1939.93,"end":1940.8500000000001,"text":"第7項照類"},{"start":1940.8500000000001,"end":1941.8500000000001,"text":"本項通過決議1項"},{"start":1941.8500000000001,"end":1942.65,"text":"第8項照類"},{"start":1942.65,"end":1944.69,"text":"本項通過決議2項"},{"start":1944.69,"end":1945.73,"text":"第9項照類"},{"start":1945.73,"end":1947.2900000000002,"text":"本項通過決議4項"},{"start":1947.2900000000002,"end":1948.73,"text":"第10項照類"},{"start":1948.73,"end":1950.0500000000002,"text":"本項通過決議1項"},{"start":1950.09,"end":1951.09,"text":"第11項照類"},{"start":1951.09,"end":1952.37,"text":"本項通過決議3項"},{"start":1952.37,"end":1953.49,"text":"第27款"},{"start":1953.49,"end":1954.45,"text":"第11項"},{"start":1954.45,"end":1956.45,"text":"第1幕至第3幕均照類"},{"start":1958.05,"end":1959.65,"text":"2015年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":1959.65,"end":1960.77,"text":"有關文化部主管"},{"start":1960.77,"end":1962.69,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附屬"},{"start":1962.69,"end":1963.85,"text":"單位預算審查完畢"},{"start":1963.85,"end":1965.37,"text":"審查結果如下"},{"start":1965.37,"end":1966.25,"text":"業務總收入"},{"start":1966.25,"end":1967.29,"text":"業務總支出"},{"start":1967.29,"end":1968.93,"text":"本期短促均照類"},{"start":1968.93,"end":1970.57,"text":"絕繳公共進而無類數"},{"start":1970.57,"end":1972.09,"text":"轉投資計劃無類數"},{"start":1972.09,"end":1974.33,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充照類"},{"start":1975.19,"end":1976.3100000000002,"text":"國庫增撥基金附屬"},{"start":1976.3100000000002,"end":1977.8700000000001,"text":"照類通過決議2項"},{"start":1977.8700000000001,"end":1978.3500000000001,"text":"3"},{"start":1978.3500000000001,"end":1980.0300000000002,"text":"2015年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":1980.0300000000002,"end":1981.15,"text":"有關文化部主管"},{"start":1981.15,"end":1982.3500000000001,"text":"文化發展基金"},{"start":1983.01,"end":1985.17,"text":"單位預算案審查完畢"},{"start":1985.17,"end":1987.17,"text":"完畢審查結果如下"},{"start":1987.17,"end":1988.61,"text":"基金來源基金用途"},{"start":1988.61,"end":1990.05,"text":"本期剩餘均照類"},{"start":1990.05,"end":1991.61,"text":"絕繳公共進而無類數"},{"start":1991.61,"end":1992.93,"text":"通過決議項"},{"start":1992.93,"end":1993.65,"text":"4"},{"start":1993.65,"end":1995.21,"text":"2015年度行政法人"},{"start":1995.21,"end":1996.61,"text":"國家表演藝術中心"},{"start":1996.61,"end":1997.77,"text":"預算案審查完畢"},{"start":1997.77,"end":1998.93,"text":"擬具審查報告"},{"start":1998.93,"end":1999.81,"text":"提請院會公解"},{"start":1999.81,"end":2001.81,"text":"不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":2001.81,"end":2003.93,"text":"院會討論時由羅昭吉委員"},{"start":2004.62,"end":2007.02,"text":"庭委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":2007.02,"end":2007.5,"text":"一"},{"start":2007.5,"end":2008.3,"text":"業務總收入"},{"start":2008.3,"end":2009.1,"text":"業務總支出"},{"start":2009.1,"end":2010.22,"text":"本期短促均照類"},{"start":2010.22,"end":2011.8999999999999,"text":"絕繳公共無類數"},{"start":2011.8999999999999,"end":2013.26,"text":"轉投資計畫無類數"},{"start":2013.26,"end":2015.98,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充照類"},{"start":2015.98,"end":2018.06,"text":"國庫增撥基金附屬無類數"},{"start":2018.06,"end":2020.26,"text":"通過決議3項"},{"start":2020.26,"end":2021.06,"text":"5"},{"start":2021.06,"end":2022.26,"text":"2015年度行政法人"},{"start":2022.26,"end":2022.58,"text":"國"},{"start":2023.31,"end":2024.11,"text":"文化內容"},{"start":2024.11,"end":2025.6299999999999,"text":"策紀念預算案審查完畢"},{"start":2025.6299999999999,"end":2026.75,"text":"擬具審查報告"},{"start":2026.75,"end":2028.31,"text":"提請院會公解"},{"start":2028.31,"end":2029.6299999999999,"text":"不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":2029.6299999999999,"end":2030.71,"text":"院會討論時"},{"start":2030.71,"end":2033.87,"text":"由羅昭吉委員庭委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":2033.87,"end":2033.95,"text":"一"},{"start":2033.95,"end":2034.71,"text":"業務總收入"},{"start":2034.71,"end":2035.83,"text":"業務總支出"},{"start":2035.83,"end":2037.6299999999999,"text":"本期短促均照類"},{"start":2037.6299999999999,"end":2039.07,"text":"絕繳公共進而無類數"},{"start":2039.07,"end":2040.35,"text":"轉投資計畫無類數"},{"start":2040.35,"end":2043.95,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充照類"},{"start":2043.95,"end":2045.51,"text":"國庫增撥基金附屬無類數"},{"start":2045.51,"end":2046.6299999999999,"text":"通過決議2項"},{"start":2047.73,"end":2048.33,"text":"行政"},{"start":2048.33,"end":2049.57,"text":"15年度行政法人"},{"start":2049.57,"end":2052.65,"text":"國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案審查完畢"},{"start":2052.65,"end":2053.81,"text":"擬具審查報告"},{"start":2053.81,"end":2054.93,"text":"提請院會公解"},{"start":2054.93,"end":2056.93,"text":"不需交由黨團協商院會討論時"},{"start":2056.93,"end":2060.53,"text":"由羅昭吉委員庭委補充說明審查結果如下"},{"start":2060.53,"end":2061.29,"text":"業務總收入"},{"start":2061.29,"end":2062.37,"text":"業務總支出"},{"start":2062.37,"end":2063.73,"text":"本期短促均照類"},{"start":2063.73,"end":2065.13,"text":"絕繳公共進而無類數"},{"start":2066.0299999999997,"end":2067.2299999999996,"text":"轉投資計畫無類數"},{"start":2067.2299999999996,"end":2069.5899999999997,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充照類"},{"start":2069.5899999999997,"end":2071.1499999999996,"text":"國庫增撥基金附屬無類數"},{"start":2071.1499999999996,"end":2072.5899999999997,"text":"通過決議2項"},{"start":2072.5899999999997,"end":2074.0299999999997,"text":"7對於委員質詢要求"},{"start":2074.0299999999997,"end":2075.43,"text":"提供資料或會籍答覆部分"},{"start":2075.43,"end":2077.1899999999996,"text":"請相關機關技術以順便答覆"},{"start":2077.1899999999996,"end":2079.31,"text":"8在不影響委員前提下"},{"start":2079.31,"end":2080.87,"text":"授權意識人員1"},{"start":2080.87,"end":2083.27,"text":"115年度專案政府總預算案審查報告"},{"start":2083.27,"end":2085.2299999999996,"text":"與黨團協商作案例整理"},{"start":2085.2299999999996,"end":2087.35,"text":"915年度專案政府總預算案"},{"start":2087.35,"end":2089.39,"text":"有關文化部及首署單位預算案"},{"start":2089.39,"end":2092.27,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款"},{"start":2092.27,"end":2094.39,"text":"文化部主管部分預算案"},{"start":2094.43,"end":2097.43,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2097.43,"end":2100.0699999999997,"text":"文化發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2100.0699999999997,"end":2103.0299999999997,"text":"115年度行政法整國家表演藝術中心"},{"start":2103.0299999999997,"end":2104.5899999999997,"text":"文化內容策經院"},{"start":2104.5899999999997,"end":2107.0699999999997,"text":"國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案"},{"start":2107.0699999999997,"end":2108.19,"text":"全部審查完畢"},{"start":2108.19,"end":2109.91,"text":"10本會主審"},{"start":2109.91,"end":2112.5899999999997,"text":"中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":2112.5899999999997,"end":2115.79,"text":"公務預算及非營業基金預算部分"},{"start":2115.79,"end":2117.1099999999997,"text":"均已審查完畢"},{"start":2117.1099999999997,"end":2118.91,"text":"有關正式被稅出預算"},{"start":2118.91,"end":2121.47,"text":"隨同以上機關被審查結果調整"},{"start":2121.5899999999997,"end":2122.79,"text":"你具審查報告"},{"start":2122.79,"end":2125.1099999999997,"text":"韓副財政委員會審查結果"},{"start":2125.1099999999997,"end":2127.7099999999996,"text":"需交由黨團協商院會討論時"},{"start":2127.7099999999996,"end":2130.1899999999996,"text":"由羅昭吉委員聽委補充說明"},{"start":2130.1899999999996,"end":2130.87,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2134.08,"end":2136.7599999999998,"text":"好在場委員未達一絕人數三人"},{"start":2136.7599999999998,"end":2139.68,"text":"議事錄我們稍後再進行確定"},{"start":2139.68,"end":2141.96,"text":"現在本次的會議"},{"start":2141.96,"end":2145,"text":"議程是邀請教育部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":2145,"end":2147.96,"text":"衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡"},{"start":2147.96,"end":2151.6,"text":"行政院食品安全辦公室主任徐甫"},{"start":2151.6,"end":2156.88,"text":"列席就校園食品安全把關機制"},{"start":2156.88,"end":2159.96,"text":"以及致癌郵事件的因應作為"},{"start":2159.96,"end":2163.6,"text":"進行專題報告並被備詢"},{"start":2164.46,"end":2166.66,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":2166.66,"end":2171.54,"text":"列席就學生出勤管理及校園秩序"},{"start":2171.54,"end":2173.62,"text":"維護政策的亂象"},{"start":2173.62,"end":2177.62,"text":"檢討改善的措施進行專題報告"},{"start":2177.62,"end":2178.86,"text":"並被質詢"},{"start":2179.49,"end":2182.1299999999997,"text":"審查教育部含微修正"},{"start":2182.79,"end":2189.55,"text":"高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或之前的辦法"},{"start":2189.55,"end":2191.55,"text":"部分條文及公立"},{"start":2191.55,"end":2196.99,"text":"高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條"},{"start":2196.99,"end":2198.99,"text":"第六條之一條文案"},{"start":2199.95,"end":2206.19,"text":"以及審查國民黨黨團擬具教育經費編列與管理法"},{"start":2206.19,"end":2209.0299999999997,"text":"第三條條文修正等十四案"},{"start":2209.0299999999997,"end":2211.19,"text":"委員羅志祥等十七人之提案"},{"start":2211.19,"end":2215.5499999999997,"text":"因吾不復議同意書故不予審查"},{"start":2215.5499999999997,"end":2222.0299999999997,"text":"審查委員葉元之等十九人擬具國民轉介教育條例草案"},{"start":2222.0299999999997,"end":2227.27,"text":"審查委員范雲等十六人擬具學校公參法草案等十十案"},{"start":2227.31,"end":2230.19,"text":"其中教育經費編列與管理法"},{"start":2230.19,"end":2235.27,"text":"相關修正草案及國民轉介教育條例草案"},{"start":2235.27,"end":2237.75,"text":"僅進行詢答"},{"start":2237.75,"end":2241.35,"text":"首先介紹在場的委員羅志強委員"},{"start":2245.35,"end":2248.47,"text":"接著介紹與會的官員教育部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":2252.25,"end":2254.49,"text":"國民級學生教育署署長彭富源"},{"start":2256.95,"end":2258.87,"text":"青年發展署署長陳雪玉"},{"start":2260.88,"end":2263.12,"text":"衛生福利部政務事長林靜怡"},{"start":2265.72,"end":2268.12,"text":"行政事實品安全辦公室主任徐甫"},{"start":2270.58,"end":2273.94,"text":"司法院少年級嘉士廷副廳長黃季渝"},{"start":2276.57,"end":2277.8500000000004,"text":"保護參事汪南軍"},{"start":2279.83,"end":2283.5099999999998,"text":"內政部警政署刑事警察局警政監蔡崑義"},{"start":2285.73,"end":2290.69,"text":"財政部國庫署財務規劃組組長黃曉薇"},{"start":2293.01,"end":2294.7700000000004,"text":"勞動部勞動力發展署"},{"start":2295.24,"end":2297.4799999999996,"text":"深特組科長黃靜怡"},{"start":2299.5,"end":2303.18,"text":"環境部化學物質管理署組長林松景"},{"start":2305.55,"end":2308.3500000000004,"text":"農業部農糧署副署長黃昭欣"},{"start":2315.91,"end":2320.1499999999996,"text":"國家發展委員會社會發展處專門委員蘇愛娟"},{"start":2321.95,"end":2325.5499999999997,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員王謙凱"},{"start":2327.47,"end":2331.39,"text":"行政院消費者保護署副署長陳興宏"},{"start":2333.9,"end":2338.2200000000003,"text":"台中市南區信義國小教師會常務理事唐一國先生"},{"start":2340.97,"end":2341.77,"text":"新北市"},{"start":2342.69,"end":2345.57,"text":"清水高級中學家長代表楊先生"},{"start":2347.9,"end":2348.94,"text":"謝謝楊爸爸 謝謝"},{"start":2351.67,"end":2356.4700000000003,"text":"其餘練習的機關代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄"},{"start":2357.23,"end":2359.95,"text":"現在進行提案說明"},{"start":2361.08,"end":2362.52,"text":"請問有委員要提案說明嗎"},{"start":2364.47,"end":2367.0299999999997,"text":"是不是請羅志祥委員擔任召委 謝謝"},{"start":2381.47,"end":2383.23,"text":"請羅庭威委員提案說明"},{"start":2388.32,"end":2392,"text":"教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案"},{"start":2392,"end":2394.2400000000002,"text":"今天我們提案說明的很簡單"},{"start":2394.7200000000003,"end":2402.0800000000004,"text":"主題的這個法案就是希望我們的訴求將國家的教育上面的投資基本門檻"},{"start":2402.0800000000004,"end":2404.8,"text":"應該要繼續往上拉一點點"},{"start":2405.1200000000003,"end":2407.76,"text":"從23%調到24%"},{"start":2408,"end":2412,"text":"這一%就是要讓弱勢不要被"},{"start":2413.24,"end":2415.3999999999996,"text":"缺乎到他們的權益"},{"start":2415.72,"end":2419.7999999999997,"text":"甚至我們也不要偏鄉的學校被放生"},{"start":2419.7999999999997,"end":2426.6,"text":"我們更希望老師有最低限度的專業發展空間不再年年被預算的邊緣化"},{"start":2427.08,"end":2429.64,"text":"依教育部自己估算提高這一%"},{"start":2429.96,"end":2432.68,"text":"大概每年增加400億的支出"},{"start":2433,"end":2438.44,"text":"行政院最近幾年編列的特別條例非常的多"},{"start":2438.7599999999998,"end":2441.3199999999997,"text":"為什麼唯獨輪到教育這400億"},{"start":2441.7200000000003,"end":2443.7200000000003,"text":"就馬上說無力負擔"},{"start":2443.96,"end":2445.96,"text":"說穿了政府不是缺錢"},{"start":2446.28,"end":2450.04,"text":"就是現階段看到他的優先順序裡"},{"start":2450.28,"end":2452.1200000000003,"text":"教育被放在最後"},{"start":2452.44,"end":2453.4,"text":"但是部長"},{"start":2454.04,"end":2456.76,"text":"也要講給行政院院長卓榮泰聽"},{"start":2457.08,"end":2462.44,"text":"憲法徵收條文第十條也有規定教育科學文化資金費"},{"start":2463.04,"end":2466.96,"text":"是國民教育經費為最優先的"},{"start":2467.44,"end":2468.4,"text":"編列考量"},{"start":2468.64,"end":2469.68,"text":"在現在的局勢"},{"start":2470.08,"end":2475.2,"text":"我們更希望少子化能夠讓孩子都能夠更關鍵的獲得資源"},{"start":2475.52,"end":2480.56,"text":"產業的轉型AI的浪潮又把技能門檻一直往上推"},{"start":2480.88,"end":2484.08,"text":"所以我們還用過去那種能撐就好的教育思維"},{"start":2484.48,"end":2485.76,"text":"來投資教育的話"},{"start":2486,"end":2488.2400000000002,"text":"就是把國家的競爭力"},{"start":2488.56,"end":2490.2400000000002,"text":"放任原地踏步"},{"start":2490.4799999999996,"end":2493.2799999999997,"text":"就是放任競爭力往下拉"},{"start":2493.52,"end":2495.12,"text":"台灣怎麼對待教育"},{"start":2495.3599999999997,"end":2498.16,"text":"世界就怎麼看待台灣的評價"},{"start":2498.3999999999996,"end":2499.4399999999996,"text":"台灣的未來"},{"start":2499.68,"end":2500.72,"text":"所以預算可以省"},{"start":2501.2,"end":2502.3999999999996,"text":"教育不能省"},{"start":2502.64,"end":2504.16,"text":"孩子的未來不能夠打折"},{"start":2504.16,"end":2505.6,"text":"這是我今天提案說明"},{"start":2505.6,"end":2506.08,"text":"以上"},{"start":2518.34,"end":2519.38,"text":"好 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那麼查的時候第一批"},{"start":4222.57,"end":4224.57,"text":"7月7號的時候"},{"start":4224.57,"end":4226.57,"text":"我們大概發現到"},{"start":4226.57,"end":4228.57,"text":"有這五個縣市"},{"start":4228.57,"end":4230.57,"text":"有228個學校是有使用"},{"start":4230.57,"end":4232.57,"text":"全部下降"},{"start":4232.57,"end":4234.57,"text":"在這第一波"},{"start":4234.57,"end":4236.57,"text":"然後第二波到7月7號又公布第二波的時候"},{"start":4236.57,"end":4238.57,"text":"我們這個7月9號"},{"start":4238.57,"end":4240.57,"text":"再公布了"},{"start":4240.57,"end":4242.57,"text":"7月7號是232"},{"start":4242.57,"end":4244.57,"text":"的這個品項"},{"start":4244.57,"end":4246.57,"text":"7月9號440個品項"},{"start":4246.57,"end":4248.57,"text":"我們根據這一個"},{"start":4248.57,"end":4250.57,"text":"又馬上"},{"start":4250.57,"end":4252.57,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":4253.58,"end":4255.58,"text":"去馬市長看一看"},{"start":4257,"end":4259,"text":"至少願意回答問題"},{"start":4259.97,"end":4261.97,"text":"但是我要拜託今天部長"},{"start":4261.97,"end":4263.97,"text":"還有後面的次長"},{"start":4264.34,"end":4266.34,"text":"你就知道今天食安問題有多大"},{"start":4267.8,"end":4269.8,"text":"上千所學校也受牽連"},{"start":4270.65,"end":4272.65,"text":"教育部不是食安法主管機關"},{"start":4273.55,"end":4275.55,"text":"但是有責任"},{"start":4275.55,"end":4277.55,"text":"為今天食藥署"},{"start":4277.55,"end":4279.55,"text":"衛福部把關不嚴"},{"start":4279.55,"end":4281.55,"text":"今天已經竄到校園來"},{"start":4281.31,"end":4283.31,"text":"部長你們擔保今天"},{"start":4283.31,"end":4285.31,"text":"我們學校的校園學生的食安"},{"start":4285.31,"end":4287.31,"text":"不會受這個食油"},{"start":4287.31,"end":4289.31,"text":"的安全問題"},{"start":4289.31,"end":4291.31,"text":"所波及影響"},{"start":4291.27,"end":4293.27,"text":"跟我們報告我們建立這個平台"},{"start":4293.27,"end":4295.27,"text":"確實每一天的一個食材"},{"start":4295.27,"end":4297.27,"text":"都透明公開而且要上網"},{"start":4297.27,"end":4299.27,"text":"繼續努力啦謝謝部長"},{"start":4299.27,"end":4301.27,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員長"},{"start":4301.27,"end":4303.27,"text":"我想請教你下一個問題喔"},{"start":4303.32,"end":4305.32,"text":"這會求到教文委員會"},{"start":4305.32,"end":4307.32,"text":"我其實一直在做"},{"start":4307.32,"end":4309.32,"text":"我們選區的學校的"},{"start":4309.32,"end":4311.32,"text":"實際的訪談跟所謂的"},{"start":4311.32,"end":4313.32,"text":"那個情意"},{"start":4313.32,"end":4315.32,"text":"過去有跟部長反映過教師"},{"start":4315.32,"end":4317.32,"text":"的問題"},{"start":4317.32,"end":4319.32,"text":"也有很多的校長"},{"start":4319.32,"end":4321.32,"text":"跟我反映有行政"},{"start":4321.32,"end":4323.32,"text":"大逃亡的問題"},{"start":4323.32,"end":4325.32,"text":"行政業務越來越多排擠教學"},{"start":4325.32,"end":4327.32,"text":"心力"},{"start":4327.32,"end":4329.32,"text":"也讓很多的老師不敢踏入教職"},{"start":4329.32,"end":4331.32,"text":"甚至許多學校連主任職都找不到"},{"start":4331.32,"end":4333.32,"text":"那我知道教育部有提出一些"},{"start":4333.32,"end":4335.32,"text":"支持增補行政能力的計畫"},{"start":4335.32,"end":4337.32,"text":"包括國中有增製學務能力"},{"start":4337.32,"end":4339.32,"text":"其他層級"},{"start":4339.32,"end":4341.32,"text":"也有類似"},{"start":4341.32,"end":4343.32,"text":"那我肯定教育部的態度"},{"start":4343.32,"end":4345.32,"text":"但是我這邊有一個建議"},{"start":4345.32,"end":4347.32,"text":"我希望政府有意願來幫助"},{"start":4347.32,"end":4349.32,"text":"但應該要真正落實政策的美意"},{"start":4349.32,"end":4351.32,"text":"我遇到"},{"start":4351.32,"end":4353.32,"text":"有些國中校長有這樣建議"},{"start":4353.32,"end":4355.32,"text":"他說國中美校是增製"},{"start":4355.32,"end":4357.32,"text":"一位人力"},{"start":4357.32,"end":4359.32,"text":"但實際上教育現場的行政能力"},{"start":4359.32,"end":4361.32,"text":"還是非常缺"},{"start":4361.32,"end":4363.32,"text":"而且因為每個學校的學生人數"},{"start":4363.32,"end":4365.32,"text":"事情繁雜度不一"},{"start":4365.32,"end":4367.32,"text":"全部所有學校都是以一個人"},{"start":4367.32,"end":4369.32,"text":"來去編配"},{"start":4369.32,"end":4371.32,"text":"那對於"},{"start":4371.32,"end":4373.32,"text":"就是學生數"},{"start":4373.32,"end":4375.32,"text":"校園規模比較大的學校"},{"start":4375.32,"end":4377.32,"text":"他們就人力緊缺的問題比較嚴重"},{"start":4377.32,"end":4379.32,"text":"所以他們"},{"start":4379.32,"end":4381.32,"text":"認為說可不可以調整以學生"},{"start":4381.32,"end":4383.32,"text":"人數為基準"},{"start":4383.32,"end":4385.32,"text":"那學生數越多的學校"},{"start":4385.32,"end":4387.32,"text":"可以有越多的人力"},{"start":4387.32,"end":4389.32,"text":"比方說在學校的護理師"},{"start":4389.32,"end":4391.32,"text":"也是用學生人數來評估的"},{"start":4391.32,"end":4393.32,"text":"那我的建議"},{"start":4393.32,"end":4395.32,"text":"也是校長們的建議"},{"start":4395.32,"end":4397.32,"text":"說綜合學校空間標準"},{"start":4397.32,"end":4399.32,"text":"跟教育現場的建議"},{"start":4399.32,"end":4401.32,"text":"是否可以調整以實體班"},{"start":4401.32,"end":4403.32,"text":"為計算標準"},{"start":4403.32,"end":4405.32,"text":"36班含以下的補一人"},{"start":4405.32,"end":4407.32,"text":"37班以上就可以有兩人"},{"start":4407.32,"end":4409.32,"text":"我不知道部長可不可以"},{"start":4409.32,"end":4411.32,"text":"幫忙我們這些學校的"},{"start":4411.32,"end":4413.32,"text":"教育現場的人力不足"},{"start":4413.32,"end":4415.32,"text":"可以這樣的一個"},{"start":4415.23,"end":4417.23,"text":"後盾跟幫助"},{"start":4417.09,"end":4419.09,"text":"謝謝委員關心"},{"start":4419.09,"end":4421.09,"text":"這個教育品質包括"},{"start":4421.09,"end":4423.09,"text":"減少我們老師的一個行政壓力"},{"start":4423.09,"end":4425.09,"text":"我想確實現在"},{"start":4425.09,"end":4427.09,"text":"的挑戰是比較大"},{"start":4427.09,"end":4429.09,"text":"也跟委員報告去年我們會"},{"start":4429.09,"end":4431.09,"text":"協務人力會增加是"},{"start":4431.09,"end":4433.09,"text":"沒有我進來以後在年度"},{"start":4433.09,"end":4435.09,"text":"的預算並沒有編列這個我們內部"},{"start":4435.09,"end":4437.09,"text":"調整但是委員的建議"},{"start":4437.09,"end":4439.09,"text":"我先謝謝你啦"},{"start":4439.09,"end":4441.09,"text":"我說增加一個有幫助"},{"start":4441.09,"end":4443.09,"text":"說明說委員的建議"},{"start":4443.09,"end":4445.09,"text":"我們也會考慮在未來"},{"start":4445.09,"end":4447.09,"text":"我們希望在年度的預算能夠"},{"start":4447.09,"end":4449.09,"text":"編進去然後能夠用"},{"start":4449.09,"end":4451.09,"text":"班級考量他的"},{"start":4451.09,"end":4453.09,"text":"一個規模初步我們因為沒有"},{"start":4453.09,"end":4455.09,"text":"預算我們沒關係"},{"start":4455.09,"end":4457.09,"text":"算是內部應試起來"},{"start":4457.09,"end":4459.09,"text":"也聽到也看到了這個地方"},{"start":4459.09,"end":4461.09,"text":"的一個聲音我先謝謝部長"},{"start":4461.09,"end":4463.09,"text":"那這個意見麻煩我們教育部"},{"start":4463.09,"end":4465.09,"text":"再研議一下我覺得校長提的"},{"start":4465.09,"end":4467.09,"text":"意見很有道理啦就是看學校"},{"start":4467.09,"end":4469.09,"text":"規模來去設計人力"},{"start":4469.09,"end":4471.09,"text":"的編排那另外也是"},{"start":4471.09,"end":4473.09,"text":"幫我們學生來這個請願"},{"start":4473.09,"end":4475.09,"text":"政府一直在宣傳"},{"start":4475.09,"end":4477.09,"text":"高中職跟五專前三年"},{"start":4477.09,"end":4479.09,"text":"全面免納學費"},{"start":4479.09,"end":4481.09,"text":"這也是得正啦"},{"start":4481.09,"end":4483.09,"text":"減輕了很多青年學職跟家長"},{"start":4483.09,"end":4485.09,"text":"的負擔那這點我是給你肯定"},{"start":4485.09,"end":4487.09,"text":"但是事實上"},{"start":4487.09,"end":4489.09,"text":"同樣國中畢業去就讀"},{"start":4489.09,"end":4491.09,"text":"私立的學校私立"},{"start":4491.09,"end":4493.09,"text":"高中職跟私立五專"},{"start":4493.09,"end":4495.09,"text":"其他平均的補助金額還是有"},{"start":4495.09,"end":4497.09,"text":"非常大的差別我舉個例子我這邊"},{"start":4497.09,"end":4499.09,"text":"拿到資料"},{"start":4499.09,"end":4501.09,"text":"103年以來私立高中職"},{"start":4501.09,"end":4503.09,"text":"是最高每升每學期補助金額"},{"start":4503.09,"end":4505.09,"text":"從103年的"},{"start":4505.09,"end":4507.09,"text":"2萬2千800元調整到"},{"start":4507.09,"end":4509.09,"text":"114年的2萬6千"},{"start":4509.09,"end":4511.09,"text":"26萬"},{"start":4511.09,"end":4513.09,"text":"1162元"},{"start":4513.09,"end":4515.09,"text":"已經調漲了四次"},{"start":4515.09,"end":4517.09,"text":"那學費因為私資人士"},{"start":4517.09,"end":4519.09,"text":"變動學費更得提高可是"},{"start":4519.09,"end":4521.09,"text":"五專每升"},{"start":4521.09,"end":4523.09,"text":"每學期補助金額"},{"start":4523.09,"end":4525.09,"text":"我們可以看到教育部拿到的資料"},{"start":4525.09,"end":4527.09,"text":"103年"},{"start":4527.09,"end":4529.09,"text":"平均每升只用一整"},{"start":4529.09,"end":4531.09,"text":"學年不是一個學期"},{"start":4531.09,"end":4533.09,"text":"103年平均每升"},{"start":4533.09,"end":4535.09,"text":"每學年補助金額是"},{"start":4535.09,"end":4537.09,"text":"1萬9千6百"},{"start":4537.09,"end":4539.09,"text":"43元到114年"},{"start":4539.09,"end":4541.09,"text":"變成1萬9千2百"},{"start":4541.09,"end":4543.09,"text":"119元還縮水"},{"start":4543.09,"end":4545.09,"text":"那五專是培育我們國家"},{"start":4545.09,"end":4547.09,"text":"專業的人才那為了學生"},{"start":4547.09,"end":4549.09,"text":"擁有專業技能也可以補上"},{"start":4549.09,"end":4551.09,"text":"很多專業產業的缺口因為這邊"},{"start":4551.09,"end":4553.09,"text":"時間有限"},{"start":4553.09,"end":4555.09,"text":"我把這問題拋出來"},{"start":4555.09,"end":4557.09,"text":"我希望教育部能夠給我一個報告"},{"start":4557.09,"end":4559.09,"text":"這個部分你們覺得是不是"},{"start":4559.09,"end":4561.09,"text":"能夠來幫助我們今天"},{"start":4561.09,"end":4563.09,"text":"那個學生們"},{"start":4563.09,"end":4565.09,"text":"來去在補助上變得"},{"start":4565.09,"end":4567.09,"text":"是更公平然後讓他們"},{"start":4567.09,"end":4569.09,"text":"同樣能夠接受到"},{"start":4569.09,"end":4571.09,"text":"國家的得證讓年輕人"},{"start":4571.09,"end":4573.09,"text":"在這個求學的階段"},{"start":4573.09,"end":4575.09,"text":"可以得到更多的幫助"},{"start":4575.09,"end":4577.09,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想我們"},{"start":4577.09,"end":4579.09,"text":"可以來研議因為高職的部分"},{"start":4579.09,"end":4581.09,"text":"技高的部分它確實會因為"},{"start":4581.09,"end":4583.09,"text":"類科補助的這個"},{"start":4583.09,"end":4585.09,"text":"學費會不同那這個五專"},{"start":4585.09,"end":4587.09,"text":"五專這個部分我們看怎麼樣"},{"start":4587.09,"end":4589.09,"text":"來說等剛才委員所提的"},{"start":4589.09,"end":4591.09,"text":"我們以實際性來研議"},{"start":4591.09,"end":4593.09,"text":"然後來希望"},{"start":4593.09,"end":4595.09,"text":"真正落實我們"},{"start":4595.09,"end":4597.09,"text":"本來免學會的這個政策"},{"start":4597.09,"end":4599.09,"text":"能夠照顧到我們"},{"start":4599.09,"end":4601.09,"text":"最後我先謝謝部長反正這兩個"},{"start":4601.09,"end":4603.09,"text":"部分都是我想請"},{"start":4603.09,"end":4605.09,"text":"部裡面給我一個報告"},{"start":4605.09,"end":4607.09,"text":"讓我們一起來研商"},{"start":4607.09,"end":4609.09,"text":"最後我是給部長一個小小的建議"},{"start":4609.09,"end":4611.09,"text":"一個建議"},{"start":4611.09,"end":4613.09,"text":"6月29號我們在"},{"start":4613.09,"end":4615.09,"text":"校事會議的時候我想部長"},{"start":4615.09,"end":4617.09,"text":"應該知道在"},{"start":4617.09,"end":4619.09,"text":"尤其在鐵拳教育這部片引起"},{"start":4619.09,"end":4621.09,"text":"很多人關心教育現場"},{"start":4621.09,"end":4623.09,"text":"問題的時候校事會議的改進"},{"start":4623.09,"end":4625.09,"text":"跟檢討已經變成全國教師"},{"start":4625.09,"end":4627.09,"text":"認為的重中之重"},{"start":4627.09,"end":4629.09,"text":"我先不去細究今天你"},{"start":4629.09,"end":4631.09,"text":"講所謂的這個請病假的過程"},{"start":4631.09,"end":4633.09,"text":"我光講一件事情我希望部長"},{"start":4633.09,"end":4635.09,"text":"以後你還是要把它放在"},{"start":4635.09,"end":4637.09,"text":"心上"},{"start":4636.68,"end":4638.68,"text":"在老師們覺得這麼"},{"start":4638.68,"end":4640.68,"text":"重要的校事會議的改革"},{"start":4640.68,"end":4642.68,"text":"的議程上立法院排了"},{"start":4642.68,"end":4644.68,"text":"他已經不是尊重立法院"},{"start":4644.68,"end":4646.68,"text":"的問題而已"},{"start":4646.68,"end":4648.68,"text":"他也包括今天全國老師"},{"start":4648.68,"end":4650.68,"text":"心心念念希望部長能夠"},{"start":4650.68,"end":4652.68,"text":"在這個教育改革的"},{"start":4652.68,"end":4654.68,"text":"現場立法院的現場"},{"start":4654.68,"end":4656.68,"text":"能夠來展現出今天"},{"start":4656.68,"end":4658.68,"text":"幫助老師"},{"start":4658.68,"end":4660.68,"text":"來去解決教育現場困境"},{"start":4660.68,"end":4662.68,"text":"的一個態度但是我覺得"},{"start":4662.68,"end":4664.68,"text":"真的很遺憾你那天選擇"},{"start":4664.68,"end":4666.68,"text":"的是去彰化陪候選人"},{"start":4666.68,"end":4668.68,"text":"去視察但你認為視察"},{"start":4668.68,"end":4670.68,"text":"也重要可是這兩"},{"start":4670.68,"end":4672.68,"text":"件事情的輕重緩急"},{"start":4672.68,"end":4674.68,"text":"我覺得部長第一個要給你提醒"},{"start":4674.68,"end":4676.68,"text":"那第二個就是當然"},{"start":4676.68,"end":4678.68,"text":"我也要必須說因為6月"},{"start":4678.68,"end":4680.68,"text":"18號下午你請假的時候"},{"start":4680.68,"end":4682.68,"text":"那時候是在羅庭威"},{"start":4682.68,"end":4684.68,"text":"招偉旁邊那時候確實身體不舒服"},{"start":4684.68,"end":4686.68,"text":"謝謝18號謝謝委員"},{"start":4686.68,"end":4688.68,"text":"我也用這個機會澄清"},{"start":4688.68,"end":4690.68,"text":"我知道你也講你請假"},{"start":4690.68,"end":4692.68,"text":"是18號不是29號"},{"start":4692.68,"end":4694.68,"text":"好沒關係可是我要這邊跟你"},{"start":4694.68,"end":4696.68,"text":"部長你講兩件事"},{"start":4696.68,"end":4698.68,"text":"第一個就是"},{"start":4698.68,"end":4700.68,"text":"在當時6月18號我在"},{"start":4700.68,"end":4702.68,"text":"羅庭威旁邊聽到你身體不適"},{"start":4702.68,"end":4704.68,"text":"我們還請你多保重說對不對"},{"start":4704.68,"end":4706.68,"text":"所以我心存感激其實那一天中午"},{"start":4706.68,"end":4708.68,"text":"我要離開這個招偉"},{"start":4708.68,"end":4710.68,"text":"跟您都有送我到門口"},{"start":4710.68,"end":4712.68,"text":"部長先等我講完了"},{"start":4712.68,"end":4714.68,"text":"我只是要把問題釐清給你建議"},{"start":4714.68,"end":4716.68,"text":"我覺得基本上"},{"start":4716.68,"end":4718.68,"text":"羅招偉那時候是一個"},{"start":4718.68,"end":4720.68,"text":"也是一個體恤部長身體的狀況"},{"start":4720.68,"end":4722.68,"text":"但是那時候確實在旁邊我的感覺"},{"start":4722.68,"end":4724.68,"text":"是你只要身體的狀況"},{"start":4724.68,"end":4726.68,"text":"沒改變的話基本上你會"},{"start":4726.68,"end":4728.68,"text":"在這種狀況之下你不會來立法院"},{"start":4728.68,"end":4730.68,"text":"所以羅招偉跟我們認知到"},{"start":4730.68,"end":4732.68,"text":"你身體不舒服不來立法院"},{"start":4732.68,"end":4734.68,"text":"可是今天將心比心"},{"start":4734.68,"end":4736.68,"text":"當立法院審查效勢會議的時候"},{"start":4736.68,"end":4738.68,"text":"我們停留在你"},{"start":4738.68,"end":4740.68,"text":"6月18號身體不舒服所以你沒有來"},{"start":4740.68,"end":4742.68,"text":"當然認為是身體不舒服沒來"},{"start":4742.68,"end":4744.68,"text":"結果你到了彰化"},{"start":4744.68,"end":4746.68,"text":"去陪著"},{"start":4746.68,"end":4748.68,"text":"這個縣長的參選人來去"},{"start":4748.68,"end":4750.68,"text":"來去考察"},{"start":4750.68,"end":4752.68,"text":"那這個東西基本上我覺得外界有"},{"start":4752.68,"end":4754.68,"text":"誤議部長我覺得你還是可以把它放在心上"},{"start":4754.68,"end":4756.68,"text":"但是真正重要的重點"},{"start":4756.68,"end":4758.68,"text":"我還是提醒部長"},{"start":4758.68,"end":4760.68,"text":"那天是審查效勢會議"},{"start":4760.61,"end":4762.61,"text":"大家都那麼關心這件事情"},{"start":4762.61,"end":4764.61,"text":"就部長這個輕重緩急你選擇"},{"start":4764.61,"end":4766.61,"text":"感謝委員的提醒當然是我也必須要澄清"},{"start":4766.61,"end":4768.61,"text":"當時"},{"start":4768.61,"end":4770.61,"text":"我們事實上也跟召偉"},{"start":4770.61,"end":4772.61,"text":"請假然後事實上也不是"},{"start":4772.61,"end":4774.61,"text":"用病假然後我也要"},{"start":4774.61,"end":4776.61,"text":"跟委員報告我到地方"},{"start":4776.61,"end":4778.61,"text":"去你如果我有觀察到"},{"start":4778.61,"end":4780.61,"text":"我特別會到偏鄉"},{"start":4780.61,"end":4782.61,"text":"原來的農業縣市"},{"start":4782.61,"end":4784.61,"text":"我不會到我比較受不了"},{"start":4784.61,"end":4786.61,"text":"時間到了我就給你一個簡單的見解"},{"start":4786.61,"end":4788.61,"text":"我要跟外界報告包含"},{"start":4788.61,"end":4790.61,"text":"那一天"},{"start":4790.61,"end":4792.61,"text":"底下不爭官"},{"start":4792.61,"end":4794.61,"text":"謝一鳳委員也是"},{"start":4794.61,"end":4796.61,"text":"我辦公室特別"},{"start":4796.61,"end":4798.61,"text":"通知謝委員說我會到"},{"start":4798.61,"end":4800.61,"text":"彰化去看地方的"},{"start":4800.61,"end":4802.61,"text":"一切"},{"start":4802.61,"end":4804.61,"text":"沒有關係"},{"start":4804.61,"end":4806.61,"text":"我只要到地方一定會跟"},{"start":4806.61,"end":4808.61,"text":"地方縣市的教育局"},{"start":4808.61,"end":4810.61,"text":"部長"},{"start":4810.61,"end":4812.61,"text":"我是給你一個建議"},{"start":4813.7,"end":4815.7,"text":"輕重緩急還是要分啦"},{"start":4816.15,"end":4818.15,"text":"我相信到地方考察的時間"},{"start":4818.15,"end":4820.15,"text":"是很彈性的"},{"start":4820.15,"end":4822.15,"t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5,"end":5040.65,"text":"我們現在才知道的一些"},{"start":5040.65,"end":5042.65,"text":"黑暗資料"},{"start":5042.65,"end":5044.65,"text":"就如同食藥署在前身"},{"start":5044.65,"end":5046.65,"text":"食藥局的時候"},{"start":5046.65,"end":5048.65,"text":"99年到100年"},{"start":5048.65,"end":5050.65,"text":"跟我們的調查局一起合作"},{"start":5050.65,"end":5052.65,"text":"才能夠破獲"},{"start":5052.65,"end":5054.65,"text":"豎起食品摻雜衛爾岡的"},{"start":5054.65,"end":5056.65,"text":"尾藥案件"},{"start":5056.65,"end":5058.65,"text":"這也是當時食藥辦"},{"start":5058.65,"end":5060.65,"text":"成立的一個目的"},{"start":5060.65,"end":5062.65,"text":"作為跨部會的協調工作"},{"start":5062.65,"end":5064.65,"text":"我們也希望能夠幫助到幾個"},{"start":5064.65,"end":5066.65,"text":"倒刊雜誌"},{"start":5066.11,"end":5068.11,"text":"食藥署"},{"start":5069.22,"end":5071.22,"text":"主長許超凱指出"},{"start":5071.22,"end":5073.22,"text":"這類食用油"},{"start":5073.22,"end":5075.22,"text":"所製的黃豆"},{"start":5075.22,"end":5077.22,"text":"業者都是採"},{"start":5077.22,"end":5079.22,"text":"核傳採購"},{"start":5079.22,"end":5081.22,"text":"考量黃豆季節"},{"start":5081.22,"end":5083.22,"text":"性以及業者"},{"start":5083.22,"end":5085.22,"text":"會同時採購美國"},{"start":5085.22,"end":5087.22,"text":"巴西以及"},{"start":5087.22,"end":5089.22,"text":"目前國內多數的另有"},{"start":5089.22,"end":5091.22,"text":"廠製成原料驗收"},{"start":5091.22,"end":5093.22,"text":"都是從出"},{"start":5093.22,"end":5095.22,"text":"炸的毛油來做檢驗"},{"start":5095.22,"end":5097.22,"text":"以及後續的脫色"},{"start":5097.22,"end":5099.22,"text":"過程均做的比中年油脂"},{"start":5099.22,"end":5101.22,"text":"還要好"},{"start":5101.22,"end":5103.22,"text":"可以研判"},{"start":5102.41,"end":5104.41,"text":"將這個疑慮的致癌物"},{"start":5104.41,"end":5106.41,"text":"他的標準下降"},{"start":5106.41,"end":5108.41,"text":"至限量的一個標準下"},{"start":5108.41,"end":5110.41,"text":"我們又看到9日呢"},{"start":5110.41,"end":5112.41,"text":"江志剛又說台糖五六月"},{"start":5112.41,"end":5114.41,"text":"向福茂"},{"start":5114.41,"end":5116.41,"text":"購入了中年油脂"},{"start":5116.41,"end":5118.41,"text":"出炸的油品"},{"start":5117.82,"end":5119.82,"text":"自自家的"},{"start":5119.82,"end":5121.82,"text":"出炸油品來混合精煉"},{"start":5121.82,"end":5123.82,"text":"所以製成了台糖大豆沙拉油"},{"start":5123.82,"end":5125.82,"text":"以及烤酥油"},{"start":5125.82,"end":5127.82,"text":"兩品項"},{"start":5127.82,"end":5129.82,"text":"我們看到台糖現在也有預防性的"},{"start":5129.82,"end":5131.82,"text":"一個下架作為"},{"start":5131.82,"end":5133.82,"text":"但11日我們又看到呢"},{"start":5133.82,"end":5135.82,"text":"石崇良表示10月8日以後"},{"start":5135.82,"end":5137.82,"text":"食藥署自我們三家"},{"start":5137.82,"end":5139.82,"text":"煉油廠"},{"start":5139.86,"end":5141.86,"text":"大同意台糖常輝食業"},{"start":5141.86,"end":5143.86,"text":"進行駐場"},{"start":5143.86,"end":5145.86,"text":"我想問一下喔"},{"start":5145.43,"end":5147.43,"text":"林次"},{"start":5148.34,"end":5150.34,"text":"10月8日"},{"start":5150.34,"end":5152.34,"text":"食藥署結網"},{"start":5151.7,"end":5153.7,"text":"7月8日"},{"start":5153.7,"end":5155.7,"text":"我們自三家煉油廠"},{"start":5155.7,"end":5157.7,"text":"大同意台糖常輝"},{"start":5157.7,"end":5159.7,"text":"是否由於"},{"start":5159.7,"end":5161.7,"text":"檢調來做配合"},{"start":5161.7,"end":5163.7,"text":"偵查"},{"start":5163.7,"end":5165.7,"text":"現階段還有沒有"},{"start":5165.7,"end":5167.7,"text":"跟他們其他"},{"start":5167.7,"end":5169.7,"text":"時段"},{"start":5169.15,"end":5171.15,"text":"共同使用"},{"start":5171.04,"end":5173.04,"text":"黃豆原料"},{"start":5173.04,"end":5175.04,"text":"與中蓮油是使用"},{"start":5175.04,"end":5177.04,"text":"同一批船的"},{"start":5177.2,"end":5179.2,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":5178.45,"end":5180.45,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":5185.35,"end":5187.35,"text":"該抽驗30件的檢體"},{"start":5187.35,"end":5189.35,"text":"化驗的報告出爐了嗎"},{"start":5189.87,"end":5191.87,"text":"是不是應該即時公告"},{"start":5192.12,"end":5194.12,"text":"沒有全部出來"},{"start":5194.12,"end":5196.12,"text":"目前已經出來的"},{"start":5196.12,"end":5198.12,"text":"15件包含大同意常輝"},{"start":5198.12,"end":5200.12,"text":"這邊還沒"},{"start":5200.12,"end":5202.12,"text":"我們希望"},{"start":5202.12,"end":5204.12,"text":"報告出爐要即時公告"},{"start":5204.12,"end":5206.12,"text":"我們這邊因為持續都在驗"},{"start":5206.12,"end":5208.12,"text":"所以我們有新的報告"},{"start":5208.12,"end":5210.12,"text":"我們都會再公布"},{"start":5210.12,"end":5212.12,"text":"我想自來獨有食藥署第一時間"},{"start":5212.12,"end":5214.12,"text":"定義戰犯是巴西進口"},{"start":5214.12,"end":5216.12,"text":"含水率過高的黃豆"},{"start":5216.12,"end":5218.12,"text":"然後安排學者說是"},{"start":5218.12,"end":5220.12,"text":"巴西黃豆在原產地採收了後"},{"start":5220.37,"end":5222.37,"text":"乾燥、蒸熏的過程"},{"start":5222.37,"end":5224.37,"text":"恐出現熱損傷"},{"start":5224.55,"end":5226.55,"text":"而產生了BAP的問題"},{"start":5226.55,"end":5228.55,"text":"然而從今年1到5月"},{"start":5228.55,"end":5230.55,"text":"台灣從巴西進口的黃豆量"},{"start":5232.2,"end":5234.2,"text":"總量達到59.9萬噸"},{"start":5234.2,"end":5236.2,"text":"該批大豆除了供應中年油脂"},{"start":5238.93,"end":5240.93,"text":"還有可能三家的其他電油廠"},{"start":5242.36,"end":5244.36,"text":"大同意台糖常輝食業"},{"start":5244.36,"end":5246.36,"text":"是否有少量供應其他"},{"start":5248.26,"end":5250.26,"text":"做醬油"},{"start":5250.29,"end":5252.29,"text":"豆漿"},{"start":5251.38,"end":5253.38,"text":"豆類製品的工廠"},{"start":5253.12,"end":5255.12,"text":"畢竟沙拉油在煉製的過程"},{"start":5255.12,"end":5257.12,"text":"BAP的含量下降80%以上"},{"start":5257.12,"end":5261.12,"text":"但其他豆類製品直接粉碎加工使用"},{"start":5261.61,"end":5263.61,"text":"我們都很想知道"},{"start":5263.61,"end":5265.61,"text":"市長有沒有其他的肉網之魚"},{"start":5265.61,"end":5267.61,"text":"醬油"},{"start":5267.2,"end":5269.2,"text":"多乾"},{"start":5268.71,"end":5270.71,"text":"醬油"},{"start":5298.71,"end":5300.71,"text":"同一批黃豆來源的製品"},{"start":5300.71,"end":5302.71,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5302.71,"end":5304.71,"text":"同一批黃豆來源的製品"},{"start":5304.71,"end":5306.71,"text":"這個部分我們會另外後續"},{"start":5306.71,"end":5308.71,"text":"所以我要提醒嘛"},{"start":5308.71,"end":5310.71,"text":"就是說現在國人會擔憂"},{"start":5310.71,"end":5312.71,"text":"同一批的黃豆如果有問題"},{"start":5312.71,"end":5314.71,"text":"他做成醬油"},{"start":5314.71,"end":5316.71,"text":"或者是加工類的"},{"start":5316.71,"end":5318.71,"text":"製成不同"},{"start":5318.71,"end":5320.71,"text":"我們還是鼓勵衛福部食藥署"},{"start":5320.71,"end":5322.71,"text":"應該去抽查檢驗嘛"},{"start":5322.71,"end":5324.71,"text":"去了解雖然製成不同"},{"start":5324.71,"end":5326.71,"text":"但同一批的黃豆"},{"start":5326.71,"end":5328.71,"text":"有問題"},{"start":5328.71,"end":5330.71,"text":"跟這些黃豆"},{"start":5330.71,"end":5332.71,"text":"同一批黃豆他用同樣"},{"start":5332.71,"end":5334.71,"text":"跟這個油一樣製成的"},{"start":5334.71,"end":5336.71,"text":"我們全面來做一個"},{"start":5336.71,"end":5338.71,"text":"跟您做一個報告"},{"start":5338.71,"end":5340.71,"text":"所以你可以同意去做檢驗嗎"},{"start":5340.71,"end":5342.71,"text":"我們確認一下是不是同一批黃豆"},{"start":5342.71,"end":5344.71,"text":"因為通常黃豆來源不一樣"},{"start":5344.71,"end":5346.71,"text":"我是具體的建議同一批黃豆"},{"start":5346.71,"end":5348.71,"text":"有不同的製品"},{"start":5348.71,"end":5350.71,"text":"醬油都應該去檢驗看看"},{"start":5350.71,"end":5352.71,"text":"擴大去檢驗"},{"start":5352.71,"end":5354.71,"text":"我了解你說的製成不同"},{"start":5354.71,"end":5356.71,"text":"但是擴大檢驗"},{"start":5356.71,"end":5358.71,"text":"避免食安嘛"},{"start":5358.71,"end":5360.71,"text":"那就是您所說的"},{"start":5360.71,"end":5362.71,"text":"跟這一批黃豆有關的"},{"start":5362.71,"end":5364.71,"text":"我們全面清查一下"},{"start":5364.71,"end":5366.71,"text":"我想巴西黃豆有問題"},{"start":5366.71,"end":5368.71,"text":"美國黃豆是否也有問題"},{"start":5368.71,"end":5370.71,"text":"我們也應該同樣的去了解一下"},{"start":5370.71,"end":5372.71,"text":"倘若不是巴西黃豆的問題"},{"start":5372.71,"end":5374.71,"text":"那我想對於貿易果斷的"},{"start":5374.71,"end":5376.71,"text":"議策是否對貿易夥伴"},{"start":5376.71,"end":5378.71,"text":"有不盡之處"},{"start":5378.71,"end":5380.71,"text":"還是要謹慎處理"},{"start":5380.71,"end":5382.71,"text":"這個部分我只是提醒而已"},{"start":5382.71,"end":5384.71,"text":"美國黃豆我們也是希望"},{"start":5384.71,"end":5386.71,"text":"最高的品質就是全面清查"},{"start":5386.71,"end":5388.71,"text":"不要有掛一漏萬"},{"start":5388.71,"end":5390.71,"text":"這個委員我們要再強調一下"},{"start":5390.71,"end":5392.71,"text":"就是我們現在辦專家"},{"start":5392.71,"end":5394.71,"text":"為什麼我們讓中聯"},{"start":5394.71,"end":5396.71,"text":"我們還沒有讓他能夠復工"},{"start":5396.71,"end":5398.71,"text":"就是我們對於他在製造過程"},{"start":5398.71,"end":5400.71,"text":"應該要做品管的節點"},{"start":5400.71,"end":5402.71,"text":"他還沒有辦法說服我們他有好的品管"},{"start":5402.71,"end":5404.71,"text":"這個部分麻煩我提醒一下"},{"start":5404.71,"end":5406.71,"text":"那現在我們看到有教授"},{"start":5406.71,"end":5408.71,"text":"在指出說"},{"start":5408.71,"end":5410.71,"text":"BAP超標的案例其實非常罕見"},{"start":5410.71,"end":5412.71,"text":"一般從油脂精煉的角度來看"},{"start":5412.71,"end":5414.71,"text":"即便是毛油"},{"start":5414.71,"end":5416.71,"text":"BAP的含量偏高"},{"start":5416.71,"end":5420.71,"text":"脫膠、脫酸、脫色、脫臭"},{"start":5420.71,"end":5422.71,"text":"完整的精煉程序以後理論上是可以把濃度下降"},{"start":5422.71,"end":5426.71,"text":"又說黃豆原料精萃取精煉"},{"start":5426.71,"end":5430.71,"text":"就能把不試山酸乾油脂的部分拿掉"},{"start":5430.71,"end":5432.71,"text":"而BAP就是不試山酸乾油脂"},{"start":5432.71,"end":5434.71,"text":"它就是這個部分的成分"},{"start":5434.71,"end":5436.71,"text":"理論上可以程序降低"},{"start":5436.71,"end":5438.71,"text":"我要請問一下許主任"},{"start":5438.71,"end":5440.71,"text":"現在大豆自由出問題"},{"start":5442.43,"end":5444.43,"text":"那大豆破了"},{"start":5444.26,"end":5446.26,"text":"大豆破跑去哪了"},{"start":5446.26,"end":5448.26,"text":"有沒有製成飼料"},{"start":5448.26,"end":5450.26,"text":"有沒有追蹤銷售"},{"start":5450.26,"end":5452.26,"text":"收回"},{"start":5452.26,"end":5454.26,"text":"這個全世界對於飼料的BAP的管理"},{"start":5454.26,"end":5456.26,"text":"都沒有"},{"start":5456.35,"end":5462.35,"text":"所以現在會認為進入飼料供應鏈動物的飼養"},{"start":5462.35,"end":5464.35,"text":"經濟動物上面是沒有問題"},{"start":5464.35,"end":5466.35,"text":"全世界沒有規範"},{"start":5466.35,"end":5468.35,"text":"但是我現在提出一個問題"},{"start":5468.35,"end":5470.35,"text":"我也請國人聽聽看"},{"start":5470.35,"end":5472.35,"text":"有問題的可能性"},{"start":5472.35,"end":5474.35,"text":"這個BAP做成飼料"},{"start":5474.68,"end":5478.68,"text":"供這些飼養動物來食用"},{"start":5478.68,"end":5482.68,"text":"那我們再來吃這些飼養的動物"},{"start":5482.68,"end":5484.68,"text":"這個部分我們有疑慮"},{"start":5484.68,"end":5488.68,"text":"所以我認為這個部分依照法規"},{"start":5488.68,"end":5490.68,"text":"黃豆有問題"},{"start":5491.13,"end":5493.13,"text":"我們不管後面加工就是不可以用"},{"start":5493.13,"end":5495.13,"text":"飼料管理法就規定"},{"start":5495.13,"end":5497.13,"text":"飼料不可以使用變質的原料"},{"start":5497.13,"end":5499.13,"text":"目前大豆破的流向為何"},{"start":5499.13,"end":5501.13,"text":"食安辦有沒有掌握"},{"start":5502.2,"end":5504.2,"text":"大豆破大部分是"},{"start":5504.52,"end":5506.52,"text":"進入飼料供應鏈"},{"start":5506.52,"end":5508.52,"text":"這一批有問題的黃豆"},{"start":5508.52,"end":5510.52,"text":"所製成的大豆破"},{"start":5510.52,"end":5512.52,"text":"現在也是一樣做成飼料"},{"start":5512.52,"end":5514.52,"text":"做成飼養動物的時候"},{"start":5514.52,"end":5516.52,"text":"我們就會懷疑"},{"start":5516.52,"end":5518.52,"text":"雖然世界沒有定義"},{"start":5518.52,"end":5520.52,"text":"但是我們會不會有疑慮"},{"start":5520.52,"end":5522.52,"text":"謝謝委員我補充一下"},{"start":5522.52,"end":5524.52,"text":"因為這些黃豆做成油"},{"start":5524.52,"end":5526.52,"text":"這個本篇皮是融在油裡"},{"start":5526.52,"end":5528.52,"text":"所以它在油的過程"},{"start":5528.52,"end":5530.52,"text":"現在我們製造沙拉油的過程"},{"start":5530.52,"end":5532.52,"text":"它被融出來了"},{"start":5532.52,"end":5534.52,"text":"所以如果照學理上來講"},{"start":5534.52,"end":5536.52,"text":"它是不會再豆破那一邊"},{"start":5536.52,"end":5538.52,"text":"我希望你們的推斷是對的"},{"start":5538.52,"end":5540.52,"text":"但是我還是要再次提醒"},{"start":5540.52,"end":5542.52,"text":"大豆破同一批黃豆"},{"start":5542.52,"end":5544.52,"text":"它所製成的是不是有疑慮"},{"start":5544.52,"end":5546.52,"text":"這個部分你們應該加強一下"},{"start":5546.52,"end":5548.52,"text":"因為我們現階段"},{"start":5548.52,"end":5550.52,"text":"對於整個民進黨的食安五環"},{"start":5550.52,"end":5552.52,"text":"已經徹底破功"},{"start":5552.52,"end":5554.52,"text":"我們感到非常非常的擔憂"},{"start":5554.52,"end":5556.52,"text":"我還是要針對這個部分"},{"start":5556.52,"end":5558.52,"text":"建議衛福部針對壟斷性的"},{"start":5558.52,"end":5560.52,"text":"大宗代工廠進行提高"},{"start":5560.52,"end":5562.52,"text":"頻率的無預警的製程抽驗"},{"start":5564.52,"end":5566.52,"text":"來列入不定期的抽查"},{"start":5566.52,"end":5568.52,"text":"這個部分還要拜託食安班"},{"start":5568.52,"end":5570.52,"text":"要完全負責協調"},{"start":5570.52,"end":5572.52,"text":"統籌跨部會的食品管理作為"},{"start":5574.52,"end":5576.52,"text":"然後來做這個刑事的偵查"},{"start":5576.52,"end":5578.52,"text":"配合調查局配合檢調"},{"start":5578.52,"end":5580.52,"text":"這個部分要提醒一下"},{"start":5580.52,"end":5582.52,"text":"這個地方的抽查我們會跟地方衛生局"},{"start":5582.52,"end":5584.52,"text":"一起合作"},{"start":5584.52,"end":5586.52,"text":"主要抽查是地方衛生局"},{"start":5586.52,"end":5588.52,"text":"這個我還是要提醒你們要有一個角色"},{"start":5588.52,"end":5590.52,"text":"現在要再問教育部"},{"start":5590.52,"end":5592.52,"text":"部長問直接的說"},{"start":5592.52,"end":5594.52,"text":"這起自來獨有"},{"start":5594.52,"end":5596.52,"text":"進入到校園不是食安的問題"},{"start":5596.52,"end":5598.52,"text":"是教育主管機關"},{"start":5598.52,"end":5600.52,"text":"教育部嚴重失職的一個問題"},{"start":5600.52,"end":5602.52,"text":"事情早在4月就發現"},{"start":5602.52,"end":5604.52,"text":"但到現在已經擴及20個縣市"},{"start":5604.52,"end":5606.52,"text":"623所學校"},{"start":5606.52,"end":5608.52,"text":"258所幼兒園"},{"start":5608.52,"end":5610.52,"text":"結果教育部第一反應是"},{"start":5610.52,"end":5612.52,"text":"地方政府第一線落實差額"},{"start":5612.52,"end":5614.52,"text":"請問中央主管機關的角色"},{"start":5614.52,"end":5616.52,"text":"根本就是把監管私能"},{"start":5616.52,"end":5618.52,"text":"甩脫"},{"start":5618.52,"end":5620.52,"text":"交給我們第一線地方政府"},{"start":5620.52,"end":5622.52,"text":"我們是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":5622.52,"end":5624.52,"text":"教育部一直在講"},{"start":5624.52,"end":5626.52,"text":"滾動試盤之後"},{"start":5626.52,"end":5628.52,"text":"落實有疑慮就先下架的預防措施"},{"start":5628.52,"end":5630.52,"text":"以學生健康"},{"start":5630.52,"end":5632.52,"text":"為唯一的標準"},{"start":5632.52,"end":5634.52,"text":"這句話聽起來很好聽"},{"start":5634.52,"end":5636.52,"text":"但我請問"},{"start":5636.52,"end":5638.52,"text":"以學生健康為唯一標準"},{"start":5638.52,"end":5640.52,"text":"那請你告訴國人"},{"start":5640.66,"end":5642.66,"text":"這幾個月教育部做了哪一件事情"},{"start":5642.66,"end":5644.66,"text":"對得起這句話"},{"start":5644.66,"end":5646.66,"text":"你該不會要說有疑慮就先下架吧"},{"start":5647.73,"end":5649.73,"text":"那我問你"},{"start":5649.73,"end":5651.73,"text":"有疑慮就先下架"},{"start":5651.73,"end":5653.73,"text":"衛福部說"},{"start":5653.73,"end":5655.73,"text":"20%含量的可以繼續留存"},{"start":5655.73,"end":5657.73,"text":"在貨架上"},{"start":5657.73,"end":5659.73,"text":"你能不能接受"},{"start":5659.73,"end":5661.73,"text":"我問你"},{"start":5661.73,"end":5663.73,"text":"你說有疑慮就先下架"},{"start":5663.73,"end":5665.73,"text":"衛福部說20%含量的"},{"start":5665.73,"end":5667.73,"text":"可以留在貨架上"},{"start":5667.73,"end":5669.73,"text":"你能不能接受"},{"start":5669.73,"end":5671.73,"text":"你先回答我你能不能接受"},{"start":5671.73,"end":5673.73,"text":"我們所有的下架規準"},{"start":5673.73,"end":5675.73,"text":"全部依據食藥署的公佈"},{"start":5675.73,"end":5677.73,"text":"我們所有22個地方縣市教育技術"},{"start":5677.73,"end":5679.73,"text":"馬上"},{"start":5679.73,"end":5681.73,"text":"我們做預防性的一個"},{"start":5681.73,"end":5683.73,"text":"衛福部說20%含量的時候"},{"start":5683.73,"end":5685.73,"text":"不用下架"},{"start":5685.73,"end":5687.73,"text":"來教育部"},{"start":5687.73,"end":5689.73,"text":"我們現在場面化大家這樣子講"},{"start":5689.73,"end":5691.73,"text":"但是重點的作為"},{"start":5691.73,"end":5693.73,"text":"政府公佈了問題產品的名單"},{"start":5693.73,"end":5695.73,"text":"只是風險揭露第一步"},{"start":5695.73,"end":5697.73,"text":"真正關鍵是什麼"},{"start":5697.73,"end":5699.73,"text":"我們現在涉入致癌物質的學生"},{"start":5699.73,"end":5701.73,"text":"教育部下一步作為要怎麼樣負責"},{"start":5701.73,"end":5703.73,"text":"你告訴我"},{"start":5703.73,"end":5705.73,"text":"有疑慮我們會請學校"},{"start":5705.73,"end":5707.73,"text":"地方縣市政府來協助"},{"start":5707.73,"end":5709.73,"text":"學校把名單"},{"start":5709.73,"end":5711.73,"text":"全國國人一定都有疑慮"},{"start":5711.73,"end":5713.73,"text":"我現在目前家長最關心的"},{"start":5713.73,"end":5715.73,"text":"不是怎麼退貨"},{"start":5715.61,"end":5717.61,"text":"他們不是要那個小錢"},{"start":5717.61,"end":5719.61,"text":"他們現在關心的是孩子的健康風險"},{"start":5719.61,"end":5721.61,"text":"如何評估"},{"start":5721.61,"end":5723.61,"text":"那家長要不要協助他們長期追蹤"},{"start":5723.61,"end":5725.61,"text":"你們有沒有醫療"},{"start":5725.61,"end":5727.61,"text":"跟我們學生"},{"start":5727.61,"end":5729.61,"text":"後續照顧我們學生"},{"start":5729.61,"end":5731.61,"text":"好 待會我讓你說明"},{"start":5731.61,"end":5733.61,"text":"所以我今天要提出具體的"},{"start":5733.61,"end":5735.61,"text":"完整方案跟配套"},{"start":5735.61,"end":5737.61,"text":"我希望教育部要講清楚說明白"},{"start":5737.61,"end":5739.61,"text":"請教育部儘速提出"},{"start":5739.61,"end":5741.61,"text":"健康照護"},{"start":5741.61,"end":5743.61,"text":"還有制度改革的一個方案"},{"start":5743.61,"end":5745.61,"text":"讓食安防線不會停留在事件發生後的補救"},{"start":5747.47,"end":5749.47,"text":"還有所謂我們要建立所謂的"},{"start":5749.47,"end":5751.47,"text":"預防追溯應變照護"},{"start":5751.47,"end":5753.47,"text":"四大機制 請說明"},{"start":5753.47,"end":5755.47,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 事實上"},{"start":5755.47,"end":5757.47,"text":"這一定是中央跟地方要一起合作的"},{"start":5757.47,"end":5759.47,"text":"我們所有的營養午餐"},{"start":5759.47,"end":5761.47,"text":"每天所有的食材全部公開透明"},{"start":5761.47,"end":5763.47,"text":"登錄在這個食材上"},{"start":5763.47,"end":5765.47,"text":"所以當7月1號"},{"start":5765.47,"end":5767.47,"text":"一公佈 食藥署一公佈的時候"},{"start":5767.47,"end":5769.47,"text":"我們已經"},{"start":5769.47,"end":5771.47,"text":"22個地方縣市全部"},{"start":5771.47,"end":5773.47,"text":"在平台裡面掃過一次"},{"start":5773.47,"end":5775.47,"text":"才發現有1380個"},{"start":5775.47,"end":5777.47,"text":"學校用到"},{"start":5777.47,"end":5779.47,"text":"中年所提供的"},{"start":5779.47,"end":5781.47,"text":"三家的油品"},{"start":5781.47,"end":5783.47,"text":"然後接著我們請22個地方縣市"},{"start":5783.47,"end":5785.47,"text":"教育局處馬上"},{"start":5785.47,"end":5787.47,"text":"學校裡面根據那個品項"},{"start":5787.47,"end":5789.47,"text":"逐一的來做下架的一個"},{"start":5789.47,"end":5791.47,"text":"我想我們"},{"start":5791.47,"end":5793.47,"text":"教育部在這個部分跟地方"},{"start":5793.47,"end":5795.47,"text":"是後續的作為"},{"start":5795.47,"end":5797.47,"text":"剛才委員所提的 我們事實上"},{"start":5797.47,"end":5799.47,"text":"也在思考 如果"},{"start":5799.47,"end":5801.47,"text":"學生有因為這兩個月"},{"start":5801.47,"end":5803.47,"text":"的時間"},{"start":5803.47,"end":5805.47,"text":"身體不適的話"},{"start":5805.47,"end":5807.47,"text":"家長是不是學校建立一個"},{"start":5807.47,"end":5809.47,"text":"機制 讓怎麼樣來"},{"start":5809.47,"end":5811.47,"text":"做一個比較 一個長期"},{"start":5811.47,"end":5813.47,"text":"我相信孩子不會現在感受到不適"},{"start":5813.47,"end":5815.47,"text":"我希望你針對623所學校"},{"start":5815.47,"end":5817.47,"text":"258所幼兒園能夠"},{"start":5817.47,"end":5819.47,"text":"針對他們來做一個長期的"},{"start":5819.47,"end":5821.47,"text":"我們中央跟地方來合作"},{"start":5821.47,"end":5823.47,"text":"我想問我希望你具體"},{"start":5823.47,"end":5825.47,"text":"會後提供書面資料 你們要怎麼具體的"},{"start":5825.47,"end":5827.47,"text":"來做這個相關的機制給我"},{"start":5827.47,"end":5829.47,"text":"我們來跟地方來看怎麼樣來研議"},{"start":5829.47,"end":5831.47,"text":"有一個更好的一個"},{"start":5831.47,"end":5833.47,"text":"大專院校"},{"start":5833.47,"end":5835.47,"text":"我想請問"},{"start":5835.47,"end":5837.47,"text":"他們雖然不是營養午餐的系統"},{"start":5837.47,"end":5839.47,"text":"但是我們有沒有去關心"},{"start":5839.47,"end":5841.47,"text":"也有一些餐廳"},{"start":5841.47,"end":5843.47,"text":"所以大專院校也有可能因為"},{"start":5843.47,"end":5845.47,"text":"他周邊的飲食的問題"},{"start":5845.47,"end":5847.47,"text":"所以所造成"},{"start":5847.47,"end":5849.47,"text":"有可能他們涉入到這些問題"},{"start":5849.47,"end":5851.47,"text":"學校沒有辦法所有的社區每一家"},{"start":5851.47,"end":5853.47,"text":"希望能夠關掉"},{"start":5853.47,"end":5855.47,"text":"學裡面的餐廳我們全部有追蹤"},{"start":5855.47,"end":5857.47,"text":"但是大學外的周邊"},{"start":5857.47,"end":5859.47,"text":"當然是可能仰賴衛福部"},{"start":5859.47,"end":5861.47,"text":"去做抽查"},{"start":5861.47,"end":5863.47,"text":"但是我希望現在還是要提醒大學的校"},{"start":5863.47,"end":5865.47,"text":"應該要去了解一下"},{"start":5869.02,"end":5871.02,"text":"不是我們事不關己"},{"start":5871.02,"end":5873.02,"text":"但是關心學校的一個"},{"start":5873.02,"end":5875.02,"text":"第一你可以承諾大專院校內的餐廳"},{"start":5875.02,"end":5877.02,"text":"那我們已經全面監察"},{"start":5877.02,"end":5879.02,"text":"但是是不是也要了解一下大專院校外"},{"start":5879.02,"end":5881.02,"text":"請大專院校好好的關心這件事情"},{"start":5881.02,"end":5883.02,"text":"請大專院校好好的關心這件事情"},{"start":5883.02,"end":5885.02,"text":"在食藥署所公佈的"},{"start":5885.02,"end":5887.02,"text":"我們已經都全部做下校"},{"start":5887.02,"end":5889.02,"text":"學生的安全健康"},{"start":5889.02,"end":5891.02,"text":"我跟委員的心情是一樣的"},{"start":5891.02,"end":5893.02,"text":"我們一定要極力來維護"},{"start":5893.02,"end":5895.02,"text":"我們要掌握啦"},{"start":5895.02,"end":5897.02,"text":"反正大專院校還有我們國高中"},{"start":5897.02,"end":5899.02,"text":"其實我跟委員報告"},{"start":5899.02,"end":5901.02,"text":"就這件事情"},{"start":5901.02,"end":5903.02,"text":"我們當然不捨"},{"start":5903.02,"end":5905.02,"text":"有一些不良廠商"},{"start":5905.02,"end":5907.02,"text":"做了這樣一個壞的示範"},{"start":5907.02,"end":5909.02,"text":"但是國教署在第一線"},{"start":5909.02,"end":5911.02,"text":"跟地方政府的合作"},{"start":5911.02,"end":5913.02,"text":"應該可以肯定"},{"start":5913.02,"end":5915.02,"text":"我只是要提醒你大學生也是學生"},{"start":5915.02,"end":5917.02,"text":"這個部分一定要特別注意"},{"start":5917.02,"end":5919.02,"text":"當然"},{"start":5919.34,"end":5921.34,"text":"我要有請"},{"start":5921.01,"end":5923.01,"text":"現在所有的官員回到座位上"},{"start":5924.11,"end":5926.11,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5926.95,"end":5928.95,"text":"有請主席"},{"start":5931.28,"end":5933.28,"text":"幫我邀請我們"},{"start":5933.28,"end":5935.28,"text":"信義國小教師會常務理事"},{"start":5936.06,"end":5938.06,"text":"唐英國先生"},{"start":5937.7,"end":5939.7,"text":"請我們常理事上台"},{"start":5941.44,"end":5943.44,"text":"鼓掌"},{"start":5943.2,"end":5945.2,"text":"我們依據"},{"start":5945.2,"end":5947.2,"text":"我們現在立法院"},{"start":5947.2,"end":5949.2,"text":"委員的手冊"},{"start":5949.2,"end":5951.2,"text":"我們可以邀請社會的相關人士"},{"start":5951.2,"end":5953.2,"text":"來委員會"},{"start":5953.2,"end":5955.2,"text":"來跟大家分享"},{"start":5955.2,"end":5957.2,"text":"今天我要邀請"},{"start":5957.2,"end":5959.2,"text":"第一線的教師"},{"start":5959.69,"end":5961.69,"text":"來跟大家報告"},{"start":5961.69,"end":5963.69,"text":"來跟大家講第一線的困境"},{"start":5963.69,"end":5965.69,"text":"第一線的為難"},{"start":5965.17,"end":5967.17,"text":"也希望部長能夠"},{"start":5967.17,"end":5969.17,"text":"好好地聽一下"},{"start":5969.17,"end":5971.17,"text":"老師他們現在的困境"},{"start":5971.17,"end":5973.17,"text":"他們到底是怎麼樣在第一線奮戰"},{"start":5977.83,"end":5979.83,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":5979.83,"end":5981.83,"text":"各位長官現場的"},{"start":5981.83,"end":5983.83,"text":"媒體先生小姐大家好"},{"start":5985.02,"end":5987.02,"text":"感謝委員邀請我來分享"},{"start":5988.4,"end":5990.4,"text":"教育現場的第一線的真實情況"},{"start":5992.01,"end":5994.01,"text":"我是一名現職的老師"},{"start":5994.01,"end":5996.01,"text":"國小老師"},{"start":5996.01,"end":5998.01,"text":"年資將近30年"},{"start":5998.01,"end":6000.01,"text":"但今天我並不是來為"},{"start":6000.01,"end":6002.01,"text":"教師爭取權益的"},{"start":6002.01,"end":6004.01,"text":"我是來替學生請命"},{"start":6005.41,"end":6007.41,"text":"替教育請命"},{"start":6007.55,"end":6009.55,"text":"因為教育如果失敗"},{"start":6009.55,"end":6011.55,"text":"最後受害的不是老師"},{"start":6011.55,"end":6013.55,"text":"而是整個國家的下一代"},{"start":6015.38,"end":6017.38,"text":"我先分享兩個真實的案例"},{"start":6017.38,"end":6019.38,"text":"第一個"},{"start":6019.78,"end":6021.78,"text":"十年前我當導師的時候"},{"start":6021.78,"end":6023.78,"text":"我有一個學生國小畢業"},{"start":6024.58,"end":6026.58,"text":"的時候"},{"start":6026.31,"end":6028.31,"text":"他告訴我說老師我長大之後"},{"start":6028.31,"end":6030.31,"text":"也要像你一樣當一個國小老師"},{"start":6032.52,"end":6034.52,"text":"那我請他用力"},{"start":6034.68,"end":6036.68,"text":"然後經過了三年的國中"},{"start":6036.68,"end":6038.68,"text":"三年的高中"},{"start":6038.68,"end":6040.68,"text":"他真的考上了教育大學"},{"start":6040.32,"end":6042.32,"text":"那再經過四年的鍛煉"},{"start":6042.65,"end":6044.65,"text":"他去年"},{"start":6043.93,"end":6045.93,"text":"進入了教育實習的階段"},{"start":6047.36,"end":6049.36,"text":"開始"},{"start":6048.91,"end":605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教育"},{"start":6429.32,"end":6431.32,"text":"他"},{"start":6430.15,"end":6432.15,"text":"喂"},{"start":6431.38,"end":6433.38,"text":"與榜樣而已"},{"start":6433.95,"end":6435.95,"text":"那我認為教育"},{"start":6435.95,"end":6437.95,"text":"他不只是在教室裡近距離"},{"start":6437.95,"end":6439.95,"text":"學生跟老師之間"},{"start":6440.41,"end":6442.41,"text":"聽到摸到看到"},{"start":6442.41,"end":6444.41,"text":"才叫做教育才叫做模範"},{"start":6444.88,"end":6446.88,"text":"政府官員的一言一行"},{"start":6446.88,"end":6448.88,"text":"透過媒體"},{"start":6448.32,"end":6450.32,"text":"也都是孩子們學習的榜樣"},{"start":6451.83,"end":6453.83,"text":"我們今天婚禮的"},{"start":6453.61,"end":6455.61,"text":"不是一樣"},{"start":6454.86,"end":6456.86,"text":"教師"},{"start":6457.61,"end":6459.61,"text":"而是希望制度"},{"start":6459.77,"end":6461.77,"text":"真正保護大多數孩子的社交權"},{"start":6464.64,"end":6466.64,"text":"最後"},{"start":6465.72,"end":6469.72,"text":"我懇請各位正式基層教師的吶喊"},{"start":6469.72,"end":6471.72,"text":"正式基層教師"},{"start":6471.72,"end":6473.72,"text":"教育的困境"},{"start":6475,"end":6477,"text":"不要讓認真的老師含心"},{"start":6477.75,"end":6479.75,"text":"不要讓認真的孩子失望"},{"start":6480.94,"end":6482.94,"text":"因此 我誠懇建議"},{"start":6483.27,"end":6487.27,"text":"教師會議是否能夠儘快暫停示意"},{"start":6488.71,"end":6490.71,"text":"全面檢討之後"},{"start":6490.71,"end":6492.71,"text":"該修就修 該廢就廢"},{"start":6492.64,"end":6494.64,"text":"讓制度真正回到"},{"start":6494.64,"end":6496.64,"text":"保障學生社教權的初衷"},{"start":6498.78,"end":6500.78,"text":"我的報告到此 謝謝大家"},{"start":6501.43,"end":6503.43,"text":"好 由請主席請"},{"start":6503.86,"end":6505.86,"text":"唐老師 回去喔 那我們請部長"},{"start":6505.86,"end":6507.86,"text":"請那個唐老師回座"},{"start":6507.86,"end":6509.86,"text":"那有請部長"},{"start":6515.13,"end":6517.13,"text":"部長 最近有一則新聞"},{"start":6517.13,"end":6519.13,"text":"國中生遲到被罰超客文"},{"start":6520.28,"end":6522.28,"text":"提國賠 求償140萬"},{"start":6522.28,"end":6524.28,"text":"你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":6524.28,"end":6526.28,"text":"我知道 我看到了"},{"start":6526.28,"end":6528.28,"text":"我想 部長 我們一直在想 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既警告"},{"start":6565.05,"end":6567.05,"text":"明確的成竹手段"},{"start":6567.65,"end":6569.65,"text":"勸導 書面自省"},{"start":6569.65,"end":6571.65,"text":"等輔導措施 往往"},{"start":6571.65,"end":6573.65,"text":"面臨輔導成效不彰"},{"start":6573.65,"end":6575.65,"text":"學生無所畏懼的"},{"start":6575.65,"end":6577.65,"text":"窘境 剛剛我們看到"},{"start":6577.65,"end":6579.65,"text":"唐老師也提到 第一線"},{"start":6579.65,"end":6581.65,"text":"看到孩子 這麼直接"},{"start":6582.69,"end":6584.69,"text":"在言語上"},{"start":6584.71,"end":6586.71,"text":"我們要問"},{"start":6586.43,"end":6588.43,"text":"教育部 如果今天提醒勸導"},{"start":6588.43,"end":6590.43,"text":"學生一個不喜歡聽"},{"start":6591,"end":6593,"text":"說老師 言語羞辱他"},{"start":6593,"end":6595,"text":"檢舉老師 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我知道"},{"start":7677.68,"end":7679.68,"text":"但是你有沒有覺得"},{"start":7679.68,"end":7681.68,"text":"為了這件事情我們也不希望"},{"start":7681.68,"end":7683.68,"text":"從有慘事發生"},{"start":7683.68,"end":7685.68,"text":"為了這件事情引發更大的"},{"start":7685.68,"end":7687.68,"text":"一個機制出來之後"},{"start":7687.68,"end":7689.68,"text":"引發更大老師的這個恐慌"},{"start":7689.68,"end":7691.68,"text":"跟反彈你還是認為"},{"start":7691.68,"end":7693.68,"text":"這個校事會的機制"},{"start":7693.68,"end":7695.68,"text":"有解決問題嗎"},{"start":7695.68,"end":7697.68,"text":"希望能夠贏善"},{"start":7697.68,"end":7699.68,"text":"更友善的校園其實一定要合作"},{"start":7699.68,"end":7701.68,"text":"好 我最後問一句"},{"start":7701.68,"end":7703.68,"text":"部長 所以校事會議廢除時你還是你最終的目標嗎"},{"start":7704.94,"end":7706.94,"text":"這當然是"},{"start":7706.52,"end":7708.52,"text":"如果他能夠回到正常"},{"start":7708.52,"end":7710.52,"text":"當親師合作 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部長"},{"start":8094.62,"end":8096.62,"text":"所以也就是說現在"},{"start":8096.62,"end":8098.62,"text":"我們今天躺在桌上的"},{"start":8098.62,"end":8100.62,"text":"所有國民黨委員提案的版本"},{"start":8100.62,"end":8102.62,"text":"包含教育經費編列的部分"},{"start":8102.62,"end":8104.62,"text":"不論是基金或者是明白的"},{"start":8104.62,"end":8106.62,"text":"寫出水電費"},{"start":8106.62,"end":8108.62,"text":"或者是營養午餐的國產食材"},{"start":8108.62,"end":8110.62,"text":"這些都必須要"},{"start":8110.62,"end":8112.62,"text":"透過修法要求"},{"start":8112.62,"end":8114.62,"text":"教育部要保障這個經費"},{"start":8114.62,"end":8116.62,"text":"而且要教育部買單"},{"start":8116.62,"end":8118.62,"text":"我會說在我剛說明的前提之下"},{"start":8118.62,"end":8120.62,"text":"我認為非常的不合理"},{"start":8120.62,"end":8122.62,"text":"尤其水電費的部分"},{"start":8122.62,"end":8124.62,"text":"如果我們按照地方制度法"},{"start":8124.62,"end":8126.62,"text":"第18條跟第19條"},{"start":8126.62,"end":8128.62,"text":"這些各級學校的教育"},{"start":8128.62,"end":8130.62,"text":"跟自治事項是"},{"start":8130.62,"end":8132.62,"text":"歸地方政府所主管"},{"start":8132.62,"end":8134.62,"text":"所以包含各個地方現在"},{"start":8134.62,"end":8136.62,"text":"不論是候選人或是現在"},{"start":8136.62,"end":8138.62,"text":"已經在當縣市首長的"},{"start":8138.62,"end":8140.62,"text":"這些人他們承諾"},{"start":8140.62,"end":8142.62,"text":"要營養午餐買單"},{"start":8142.62,"end":8144.62,"text":"要給學生喝鮮奶喝豆漿"},{"start":8144.62,"end":8146.62,"text":"我認為所有照顧學生的措施"},{"start":8146.62,"end":8148.62,"text":"我們當然全力的支持"},{"start":8148.62,"end":8150.62,"text":"可是如果沒有考慮到"},{"start":8150.62,"end":8152.62,"text":"各個地方財力的狀況"},{"start":8152.62,"end":8154.62,"text":"甚至大開支票之後"},{"start":8154.62,"end":8156.62,"text":"現在回過頭來"},{"start":8156.62,"end":8158.62,"text":"縮減了地方教育的預算"},{"start":8158.62,"end":8160.62,"text":"甚至有所排擠"},{"start":8160.62,"end":8162.62,"text":"在很多地方政府其實議員可能"},{"start":8162.62,"end":8164.62,"text":"要資料都要不到"},{"start":8164.62,"end":8166.62,"text":"而當現在國民黨委員在中央的立法院提案"},{"start":8166.62,"end":8168.62,"text":"要求教育部為水電費買單"},{"start":8168.62,"end":8170.62,"text":"為營養午餐買單的時候"},{"start":8170.62,"end":8172.62,"text":"我會說請問教育部"},{"start":8172.62,"end":8174.62,"text":"你們如何跟地方政府溝通"},{"start":8174.62,"end":8176.62,"text":"不能地方政府大開政治支票"},{"start":8176.62,"end":8178.62,"text":"但是卻要教育部買單"},{"start":8178.62,"end":8180.62,"text":"而且前提是在一個不平等的"},{"start":8180.62,"end":8182.62,"text":"才華法修法的情況底下"},{"start":8182.62,"end":8184.62,"text":"來 部長"},{"start":8186.18,"end":8188.18,"text":"各位確實因為當時"},{"start":8188.18,"end":8190.18,"text":"才華法以後這些水電費"},{"start":8190.18,"end":8192.18,"text":"營養午餐 學校午餐"},{"start":8192.18,"end":8194.18,"text":"的補助三張EQ等等的"},{"start":8194.18,"end":8197.18,"text":"都已經都下到地方去了"},{"start":8197.18,"end":8199.18,"text":"所以從教育部的一場"},{"start":8199.18,"end":8201.18,"text":"我們當然希望能夠以後能夠"},{"start":8201.18,"end":8203.18,"text":"這一個督促這些錢"},{"start":8203.18,"end":8206.18,"text":"到地方去 地方應該善用這些錢"},{"start":8206.18,"end":8208.18,"text":"確保這一個各種政策推動的"},{"start":8208.18,"end":8210.18,"text":"一個教育品質"},{"start":8210.18,"end":8212.18,"text":"我想這是我們未來積極跟地方"},{"start":8212.18,"end":8214.18,"text":"合作要來提醒的"},{"start":8214.18,"end":8216.18,"text":"而且我覺得要強力的提醒跟討論"},{"start":8216.18,"end":8218.18,"text":"如果沒有共識"},{"start":8218.18,"end":8220.18,"text":"但是最後卻透過在立法院的"},{"start":8220.18,"end":8223.18,"text":"強行的非常惡修法的這個狀態"},{"start":8223.18,"end":8226.18,"text":"我認為對於中央教育部非常的不公平"},{"start":8226.18,"end":8228.18,"text":"也會排擠到教育部的其他預算"},{"start":8228.18,"end":8230.18,"text":"同時我要說現在委員的版本裡面"},{"start":8230.18,"end":8233.18,"text":"甚至提出要設立基金"},{"start":8233.18,"end":8235.18,"text":"但是一旦設計到基金"},{"start":8235.18,"end":8237.18,"text":"我會說他沒有說所謂的"},{"start":8237.18,"end":8239.18,"text":"自籌裁員關於這個基金"},{"start":8239.18,"end":8240.18,"text":"到底要如何成立"},{"start":8240.18,"end":8242.18,"text":"成立之後錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":8242.18,"end":8244.18,"text":"其實也沒有說明"},{"start":8244.18,"end":8245.18,"text":"這個在財政紀律法裡面"},{"start":8245.18,"end":8246.18,"text":"我認為也是不允許的"},{"start":8246.18,"end":8248.18,"text":"我不確定目前教育部"},{"start":8248.18,"end":8250.18,"text":"跟相關的委員溝通的進度是什麼"},{"start":8252.96,"end":8253.96,"text":"關於基金的部分"},{"start":8253.96,"end":8254.96,"text":"柯志銘委員的版本"},{"start":8256.17,"end":8257.17,"text":"他要設立基金"},{"start":8258.16,"end":8262.16,"text":"那我會說目前按照他們提案的草案裡面"},{"start":8262.16,"end":8264.16,"text":"他根本沒有提出新增適當的裁員"},{"start":8264.16,"end":8266.16,"text":"但是卻要要求教育部去設立基金"},{"start":8266.16,"end":8267.16,"text":"以法來講"},{"start":8267.16,"end":8270.16,"text":"他不需要新增的非公部門裡邊的"},{"start":8270.16,"end":8273.16,"text":"這一盒預算的金會裡邊來編列"},{"start":8273.16,"end":8275.16,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分也要溝通"},{"start":8275.16,"end":8276.16,"text":"雖然今天只有詢答"},{"start":8276.16,"end":8279.16,"text":"但是我們看到所有這些提案的版本"},{"start":8279.16,"end":8282.16,"text":"如果最後所有的事情都要問責於教育部"},{"start":8282.16,"end":8286.16,"text":"那我就問地方政府對於中學還有小學"},{"start":8286.16,"end":8289.16,"text":"他們在地治法裡面所必去承擔的責任"},{"start":8289.16,"end":8290.16,"text":"卻沒有去承擔"},{"start":8290.16,"end":8292.16,"text":"我覺得這個會非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":8292.16,"end":8294.16,"text":"甚至我認為教育部的預算"},{"start":8294.16,"end":8295.16,"text":"如果因此受到排擠"},{"start":8295.16,"end":8297.16,"text":"那其實是所有的孩子"},{"start":8297.16,"end":8298.16,"text":"所有的家長"},{"start":8298.16,"end":8299.16,"text":"所有的老師"},{"start":8299.16,"end":8300.16,"text":"親師生"},{"start":8300.16,"end":8302.16,"text":"大家共同承擔這個"},{"start":8302.16,"end":8304.16,"text":"當年國民黨的委員"},{"start":8304.16,"end":8306.16,"text":"把民進黨的委員擋在門外的"},{"start":8306.16,"end":8308.16,"text":"惡修才化法的修法"},{"start":8308.16,"end":8310.16,"text":"這個後果其實是全民都在承擔"},{"start":8310.16,"end":8312.16,"text":"尤其是教育這個部分"},{"start":8312.16,"end":8314.16,"text":"所以我要拜託教育部積極的"},{"start":8314.16,"end":8316.16,"text":"當然今天只有詢答沒有處理"},{"start":8316.16,"end":8318.16,"text":"可是在後續處理之前"},{"start":8318.16,"end":8320.16,"text":"我認為教育部必須要先行"},{"start":8320.16,"end":8323.16,"text":"跟相關提案的委員做溝通跟做說明"},{"start":8323.16,"end":8326.16,"text":"當然地方政府目前如何在他們"},{"start":8326.16,"end":8328.16,"text":"新年度的預算當中"},{"start":8328.16,"end":8330.16,"text":"去處理相關的教育費用"},{"start":8330.16,"end":8332.16,"text":"我認為教育部也要去收集資料"},{"start":8332.16,"end":8334.16,"text":"不能政治支票開出去了"},{"start":8334.16,"end":8336.16,"text":"政治紅利都歸他"},{"start":8336.16,"end":8338.16,"text":"但是最後要教育部買單"},{"start":8338.16,"end":8341.16,"text":"我再次強調非常不合理"},{"start":8341.91,"end":8343.91,"text":"好 部長可以嗎"},{"start":8343.91,"end":8345.91,"text":"是的 我也跟委員報告"},{"start":8345.91,"end":8347.91,"text":"因為確實當這個地方"},{"start":8347.91,"end":8349.91,"text":"不管基於什麼原因"},{"start":8349.91,"end":8351.91,"text":"對學童的營養午餐"},{"start":8351.91,"end":8353.91,"text":"這個飲食的一個照顧"},{"start":8353.91,"end":8355.91,"text":"但是我們也從地方"},{"start":8355.91,"end":8357.91,"text":"像去這個上個禮拜的"},{"start":8357.91,"end":8359.91,"text":"這個全國教育局處首長會議裡邊"},{"start":8359.91,"end":8363.91,"text":"也確實有教育局處首長這個反應"},{"start":8363.91,"end":8365.91,"text":"因為這個免費的營養午餐"},{"start":8365.91,"end":8367.91,"text":"已經造成縣市內的一個"},{"start":8367.91,"end":8369.91,"text":"教育經會上推動的一些"},{"start":8369.91,"end":8373.91,"text":"這一個景措就是有排擠的一個效益出來"},{"start":8373.91,"end":8375.91,"text":"那所以在這裡邊"},{"start":8375.91,"end":8379.91,"text":"怎麼樣讓地方真正的許多的教育資源"},{"start":8379.91,"end":8381.91,"text":"能夠妥善的用在孩子的身上"},{"start":8381.91,"end":8383.91,"text":"學校教育的發展"},{"start":8383.91,"end":8385.91,"text":"老師的照顧"},{"start":8385.91,"end":8387.91,"text":"我想我們會跟地方"},{"start":8387.91,"end":8389.91,"text":"有一個更積極的來這一個協作"},{"start":8389.91,"end":8391.91,"text":"看怎麼樣有一個訊息能夠更公開"},{"start":8391.91,"end":8395.91,"text":"而且在政策上能夠有更充分的價值的討論"},{"start":8395.91,"end":8397.91,"text":"好 那部長請問一下"},{"start":8397.91,"end":8399.91,"text":"好 那部長請問一下"},{"start":8399.91,"end":8401.91,"text":"在開完教育局處首長會議之後"},{"start":8401.91,"end":8403.91,"text":"不知道你們是不是有討論到"},{"start":8403.91,"end":8405.91,"text":"營養午餐轉法"},{"start":8405.91,"end":8407.91,"text":"因為羅廷瑋朝偉今天下午要排"},{"start":8407.91,"end":8409.91,"text":"關於這個部分的處理"},{"start":8409.91,"end":8411.91,"text":"其實上一次我們就已經有討論過"},{"start":8411.91,"end":8413.91,"text":"到底地方教育局處首長"},{"start":8413.91,"end":8417.91,"text":"他們所呈現出來在營養午餐轉法的態度是什麼"},{"start":8417.91,"end":8419.91,"text":"因為原來的裝潢資源"},{"start":8419.91,"end":8421.91,"text":"一直沒有辦法"},{"start":8421.91,"end":8423.91,"text":"也感謝委員的一個"},{"start":8423.91,"end":8425.91,"text":"這一個諒解"},{"start":8425.91,"end":8427.91,"text":"讓我們跟地方有更多的充分的一個"},{"start":8427.91,"end":8431.91,"text":"溝通交換意見的一個機會"},{"start":8431.91,"end":8433.91,"text":"那這些年來確實"},{"start":8433.91,"end":8435.91,"text":"地方因為人力"},{"start":8435.91,"end":8437.91,"text":"因為編制"},{"start":8437.91,"end":8439.91,"text":"因為經費上"},{"start":8439.91,"end":8441.91,"text":"各個縣市的一個樣態"},{"start":8441.91,"end":8443.91,"text":"包含偏鄉"},{"start":8443.91,"end":8445.91,"text":"它確實是存有許多的差異"},{"start":8445.91,"end":8447.91,"text":"所以比較沒有辦法有共識"},{"start":8447.91,"end":8449.91,"text":"那在這一個部分"},{"start":8449.91,"end":8451.91,"text":"當22個地方縣市"},{"start":8451.91,"end":8453.91,"text":"都全部把它宣示為"},{"start":8453.91,"end":8455.91,"text":"免費營養午餐的時候"},{"start":8455.91,"end":8457.91,"text":"我想從教育部的一個立場"},{"start":8457.91,"end":8459.91,"text":"我們就是怎麼樣讓學生"},{"start":8459.91,"end":8461.91,"text":"能夠吃得健康"},{"start":8461.91,"end":8463.91,"text":"吃得安全"},{"start":8463.91,"end":8465.91,"text":"這裡邊我們從一個更高的一個位階來"},{"start":8465.91,"end":8467.91,"text":"這個協助地方"},{"start":8467.91,"end":8469.91,"text":"做好這個食安的一些"},{"start":8469.91,"end":8471.91,"text":"這個品質的一個管制"},{"start":8471.91,"end":8473.91,"text":"我想"},{"start":8473.91,"end":8475.91,"text":"這是我們未來的一個重點"},{"start":8475.91,"end":8477.91,"text":"好 因為今天下午就要處理了"},{"start":8477.91,"end":8479.91,"text":"我還是要先行點出一些困境"},{"start":8479.91,"end":8481.91,"text":"也讓部長參考"},{"start":8481.91,"end":8483.91,"text":"我已經在7月的會議裡面"},{"start":8483.91,"end":8485.91,"text":"我們收集到這些訊息"},{"start":8485.91,"end":8487.91,"text":"我舉一個例子 當台北市的一餐"},{"start":8487.91,"end":8489.91,"text":"可能是70塊到80塊"},{"start":8489.91,"end":8491.91,"text":"可是到了台中可能價格又不一樣"},{"start":8491.91,"end":8493.91,"text":"到台南到高雄甚至到屏東"},{"start":8493.91,"end":8495.91,"text":"花蓮台東"},{"start":8495.91,"end":8497.91,"text":"就像部長說的22個縣市"},{"start":8497.91,"end":8499.91,"text":"現在所有的營養午餐"},{"start":8499.91,"end":8501.91,"text":"的甲方全部都是地方"},{"start":8501.91,"end":8503.91,"text":"政府而費用又有如此"},{"start":8503.91,"end":8505.91,"text":"的差異的時候我會說"},{"start":8505.91,"end":8507.91,"text":"到底這個費用的差異是反應"},{"start":8507.91,"end":8509.91,"text":"了食材的差異還是反應"},{"start":8509.91,"end":8511.91,"text":"反應了人事成本的差異"},{"start":8511.91,"end":8513.91,"text":"還是反應了城鄉差距"},{"start":8513.91,"end":8515.91,"text":"如果地方政府都沒有"},{"start":8515.91,"end":8517.91,"text":"把相關的數字如實的"},{"start":8517.91,"end":8519.91,"text":"告訴教育部"},{"start":8519.91,"end":8521.91,"text":"未來如果家長發現"},{"start":8522.66,"end":8524.66,"text":"營養午餐是如此的不平等"},{"start":8524.66,"end":8526.66,"text":"我們未來可能會再度"},{"start":8526.66,"end":8528.66,"text":"看到在花蓮的孩子的餐桌上"},{"start":8528.66,"end":8530.66,"text":"跟在台北孩子的"},{"start":8530.66,"end":8532.66,"text":"餐桌上會有非常大的差異"},{"start":8532.66,"end":8534.66,"text":"甚至我講一個更可怕的"},{"start":8534.66,"end":8536.66,"text":"未來在花蓮的孩子的"},{"start":8536.66,"end":8538.66,"text":"營養午餐的廚餘桶裡面"},{"start":8538.66,"end":8540.66,"text":"我們所看到的差異也會跟台北的"},{"start":8540.66,"end":8542.66,"text":"孩子差很多 目前我們看到"},{"start":8542.66,"end":8544.66,"text":"甚至有六都裡面的"},{"start":8544.66,"end":8546.66,"text":"某一個縣市我就不說"},{"start":8546.66,"end":8548.66,"text":"它標榜要讓他們的孩子"},{"start":8548.66,"end":8550.66,"text":"吃全台灣的海鮮"},{"start":8550.66,"end":8552.66,"text":"全台灣的國產食材 這當然"},{"start":8552.66,"end":8554.66,"text":"不是壞事 可是如果這個"},{"start":8554.66,"end":8556.66,"text":"只是為了政治紅利而不去"},{"start":8556.66,"end":8558.66,"text":"考慮這些食材"},{"start":8558.66,"end":8560.66,"text":"到底適不適合放入營養午餐"},{"start":8560.66,"end":8562.66,"text":"我會說"},{"start":8562.66,"end":8564.66,"text":"它最後會變成廚餘"},{"start":8564.66,"end":8566.66,"text":"最後我們台灣的營養午餐的廚餘桶"},{"start":8566.66,"end":8568.66,"text":"會變成滿是國產"},{"start":8568.66,"end":8570.66,"text":"高級食材的"},{"start":8570.66,"end":8572.66,"text":"營養午餐廚餘桶"},{"start":8572.66,"end":8574.66,"text":"而這個事情不能只是讓地方"},{"start":8574.66,"end":8576.66,"text":"教育局處跟部長喊窮"},{"start":8576.66,"end":8578.66,"text":"跟部長說我們要錢"},{"start":8578.66,"end":8580.66,"text":"然後甚至是讓他們的國民黨委員"},{"start":8580.66,"end":8582.66,"text":"在立法院提案修法 要部長"},{"start":8582.66,"end":8584.66,"text":"買單 我覺得這非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":8584.66,"end":8586.66,"text":"所以這些營養午餐"},{"start":8586.66,"end":8588.66,"text":"我光是舉出費用這件事情"},{"start":8588.66,"end":8590.66,"text":"的困境 我相信"},{"start":8590.66,"end":8592.66,"text":"部長你應該要往下去"},{"start":8592.66,"end":8594.66,"text":"跟地方政府好好處理"},{"start":8594.66,"end":8596.66,"text":"他們不能報喜"},{"start":8596.66,"end":8598.66,"text":"不報憂 他們不能把鍋都"},{"start":8598.66,"end":8600.66,"text":"甩給你 然後要你全部買單"},{"start":8600.66,"end":8602.66,"text":"我會說這非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":8602.66,"end":8604.66,"text":"還有現在所有的"},{"start":8604.66,"end":8606.66,"text":"營養午餐的裁員不是"},{"start":8606.66,"end":8608.66,"text":"食材出現了問題"},{"start":8608.66,"end":8610.66,"text":"廚工的費用 還有所有的人事"},{"start":8610.66,"end":8612.66,"text":"的費用 還有甚至午餐"},{"start":8612.66,"end":8614.66,"text":"秘書 還有營養師"},{"start":8614.66,"end":8616.66,"text":"目前就算在專法"},{"start":8616.66,"end":8618.66,"text":"裡面 未來我們要去處理"},{"start":8618.66,"end":8620.66,"text":"我都不知道因地制宜要怎麼處理"},{"start":8620.66,"end":8622.66,"text":"而且現在我再次說"},{"start":8622.66,"end":8624.66,"text":"費用是地方政府要出的"},{"start":8624.66,"end":8626.66,"text":"而未來地方政府會不會因為"},{"start":8626.66,"end":8628.66,"text":"想要負擔食材"},{"start":8628.66,"end":8630.66,"text":"所以把營養師的扣打降低"},{"start":8630.66,"end":8632.66,"text":"把無密的工作"},{"start":8632.78,"end":8634.78,"text":"壓到學校老師的身上"},{"start":8634.78,"end":8636.78,"text":"甚至讓老師無償"},{"start":8636.78,"end":8638.78,"text":"的幫忙做這個事情 部長你知道"},{"start":8638.78,"end":8640.78,"text":"無密的工作有多麼繁雜嗎"},{"start":8640.78,"end":8642.78,"text":"所以我會說地方政府不能再"},{"start":8642.78,"end":8644.78,"text":"做這樣的事情 真的必須要做下來"},{"start":8644.78,"end":8646.78,"text":"好好跟地方政府溝通 還有"},{"start":8646.78,"end":8648.78,"text":"我們在修專法的時候也必須要考慮到這些"},{"start":8648.78,"end":8650.78,"text":"情況 再來現在"},{"start":8650.78,"end":8652.78,"text":"因為營養午餐它的事情"},{"start":8652.78,"end":8654.78,"text":"過去在沒有專法之前"},{"start":8654.78,"end":8656.78,"text":"它其實是地方政府的行政選擇"},{"start":8656.78,"end":8658.78,"text":"而在學校裡面我們也是"},{"start":8658.78,"end":8660.78,"text":"用代辦費來幫孩子們"},{"start":8660.78,"end":8662.78,"text":"處理這個收費 也就是說"},{"start":8662.78,"end":8664.78,"text":"如果這些本質上的事情都沒有"},{"start":8664.78,"end":8666.78,"text":"處理 我真的不知道我們今天下午"},{"start":8666.78,"end":8668.78,"text":"要怎麼修專法 當然我希望下午"},{"start":8668.78,"end":8670.78,"text":"署長 國家署長你可以"},{"start":8670.78,"end":8672.78,"text":"跟全體的委員做報告"},{"start":8672.78,"end":8674.78,"text":"到底你們在相關的局處"},{"start":8674.78,"end":8676.78,"text":"會議中 有哪些事情大家已經"},{"start":8676.78,"end":8678.78,"text":"有共識 而有哪些事情大家還沒有"},{"start":8678.78,"end":8680.78,"text":"共識必須要再積極討論"},{"start":8680.78,"end":8682.78,"text":"我也要先公開請求"},{"start":8682.78,"end":8684.78,"text":"羅庭委員 下午在主持會議的時候"},{"start":8684.78,"end":8686.78,"text":"我們上次沒有機會讓署長"},{"start":8686.78,"end":8688.78,"text":"好好的說 這一次我已經先具體"},{"start":8688.78,"end":8690.78,"text":"就提出了這些問題 更不要講"},{"start":8690.78,"end":8692.78,"text":"下午的營養午餐版本可能"},{"start":8692.78,"end":8694.78,"text":"有二三十個 大家對於費用"},{"start":8694.78,"end":8696.78,"text":"的分擔 對於成本 對於國產"},{"start":8696.78,"end":8698.78,"text":"食材 對於很多很多"},{"start":8698.78,"end":8700.78,"text":"事情的指引其實都沒有一個定見"},{"start":8700.78,"end":8702.78,"text":"跟沒有共識喔 還有我要說"},{"start":8703.86,"end":8705.86,"text":"現在國產食材這件事情我覺得"},{"start":8705.86,"end":8707.86,"text":"是最大的困境 署長我跟你報告"},{"start":8707.86,"end":8709.86,"text":"在蘇貞昌院長的時期"},{"start":8709.86,"end":8711.86,"text":"因為我們希望照顧"},{"start":8711.86,"end":8713.86,"text":"國產食材 照顧更多的小農"},{"start":8713.86,"end":8715.86,"text":"我們希望讓孩子的營養午餐"},{"start":8715.86,"end":8717.86,"text":"大量的採用國產食材"},{"start":8717.86,"end":8719.86,"text":"所以當時教育部給了補助"},{"start":8719.86,"end":8721.86,"text":"行政院給了補助 可是如果"},{"start":8721.86,"end":8723.86,"text":"未來錢回到地方"},{"start":8723.86,"end":8725.86,"text":"必須要出 會不會他們"},{"start":8725.86,"end":8727.86,"text":"就從國產食材這件事情去擠壓"},{"start":8727.86,"end":8729.86,"text":"相關的成本"},{"start":8729.86,"end":8731.86,"text":"然後讓孩子可能吃到更多進口"},{"start":8731.86,"end":8733.86,"text":"食材 可是荒謬的是"},{"start":8733.86,"end":8735.86,"text":"這樣的進口食材可能更是"},{"start":8735.86,"end":8737.86,"text":"國民黨立法委員們可能還要在相關"},{"start":8737.86,"end":8739.86,"text":"的食安法裡面去修 要求"},{"start":8739.86,"end":8741.86,"text":"地方要用國產食材 那我就"},{"start":8741.86,"end":8743.86,"text":"問 當有人說要"},{"start":8743.86,"end":8745.86,"text":"這樣修法 99%都要是"},{"start":8745.86,"end":8747.86,"text":"國產食材 必須是現在制度"},{"start":8747.86,"end":8749.86,"text":"規格 可是地方政府又不願花錢"},{"start":8749.86,"end":8751.86,"text":"買單的時候 我真的不知道"},{"start":8751.86,"end":8753.86,"text":"立了那個法跟實際上行政執行"},{"start":8753.86,"end":8755.86,"text":"的困境落差會在哪裡"},{"start":8755.86,"end":8757.86,"text":"會不會到最後所有的困境"},{"start":8757.86,"end":8759.86,"text":"一樣 還是我們的學生在承擔喔"},{"start":8759.86,"end":8761.86,"text":"部長我只是舉了這麼多問題"},{"start":8761.86,"end":8763.86,"text":"我希望我們在下午討論營養午餐的時候"},{"start":8763.86,"end":8765.86,"text":"可以針對這些事情"},{"start":8765.86,"end":8767.86,"text":"讓部長跟署長好好的報告"},{"start":8767.86,"end":8769.86,"text":"好來部長可以請您簡單回應一下嗎"},{"start":8770.87,"end":8772.87,"text":"我想確實怎麼樣確保"},{"start":8772.87,"end":8776.87,"text":"這個學童能夠吃的新鮮"},{"start":8776.87,"end":8778.87,"text":"吃的安全 吃的健康"},{"start":8778.87,"end":8780.87,"text":"這個大家的想法"},{"start":8780.87,"end":8782.87,"text":"目標都是一致的"},{"start":8782.87,"end":8784.87,"text":"那所以過去這個"},{"start":8784.87,"end":8786.87,"text":"也透過這個平台"},{"start":8786.87,"end":8788.87,"text":"裡面 我們事實上"},{"start":8788.87,"end":8790.87,"text":"這個國產豬大概有"},{"start":8790.87,"end":8792.87,"text":"99.9%"},{"start":8792.87,"end":8794.87,"text":"都是用了國產食材"},{"start":8794.87,"end":8796.87,"text":"我們在平台上都登記"},{"start":8796.87,"end":8798.87,"text":"的非常清楚 包含"},{"start":8798.87,"end":8800.87,"text":"這一次的一個食品安全"},{"start":8800.87,"end":8802.87,"text":"我們能夠快速在這個平台裡面"},{"start":8802.87,"end":8804.87,"text":"能夠"},{"start":8804.87,"end":8806.87,"text":"去找到這個學校"},{"start":8806.87,"end":8808.87,"text":"那我想在未來我們中央"},{"start":8808.87,"end":8810.87,"text":"跟地方一定要來共同"},{"start":8810.87,"end":8812.87,"text":"協力來合作"},{"start":8812.87,"end":8814.87,"text":"好那最後再給我一點時間喔"},{"start":8814.87,"end":8816.87,"text":"謝謝主席 關於今天要討論"},{"start":8816.87,"end":8818.87,"text":"關於校事會議的部分喔 剛剛我想"},{"start":8818.87,"end":8820.87,"text":"很多委員都已經表達了態度"},{"start":8820.87,"end":8822.87,"text":"但是我要說 在今天"},{"start":8822.87,"end":8824.87,"text":"目前我們在談這件事情"},{"start":8824.87,"end":8826.87,"text":"因為教育部現在送進來在各位委員手上的"},{"start":8826.87,"end":8828.87,"text":"版本其實是送立法院"},{"start":8828.87,"end":8830.87,"text":"被查 那立法委員在什麼"},{"start":8830.87,"end":8832.87,"text":"時候可以處理這個被查的部分呢"},{"start":8832.87,"end":8834.87,"text":"如果按照立院職權行使法"},{"start":8834.87,"end":8836.87,"text":"第62條 就是當我們"},{"start":8836.87,"end":8838.87,"text":"發現你們送進來的辦法"},{"start":8838.87,"end":8840.87,"text":"一 他有違母法的時候"},{"start":8840.87,"end":8842.87,"text":"跟母法有非常大的"},{"start":8842.87,"end":8844.87,"text":"漢格的時候 有非常大"},{"start":8844.87,"end":8846.87,"text":"荒謬錯誤的時候 立法院這邊"},{"start":8846.87,"end":8848.87,"text":"可以要求退回"},{"start":8848.87,"end":8850.87,"text":"教育部 我們會要求你們更正或是要求"},{"start":8850.87,"end":8852.87,"text":"你們撤銷 就是當他有"},{"start":8852.87,"end":8854.87,"text":"違反母法的時候 可是現在我們看到"},{"start":8854.87,"end":8856.87,"text":"教育部送進來的版本裡面"},{"start":8856.87,"end":8858.87,"text":"是針對 是在1月的部分喔"},{"start":8858.87,"end":8860.87,"text":"針對相關的部分進行修法"},{"start":8860.87,"end":8862.87,"text":"而我們來回憶一下這個修法"},{"start":8862.87,"end":8864.87,"text":"最早是因為教師法在"},{"start":8864.87,"end":8866.87,"text":"108年進行的修法 所以在109年"},{"start":8866.87,"end":8868.87,"text":"把相關校事會議的機制"},{"start":8868.87,"end":8870.87,"text":"提出來 所以回過頭來看"},{"start":8870.87,"end":8872.87,"text":"我不知道等一下我們在委員會"},{"start":8872.87,"end":8874.87,"text":"要處理的 到底是針對"},{"start":8874.87,"end":8876.87,"text":"教育部今年在1月修法這個版本"},{"start":8876.87,"end":8878.87,"text":"送進立法院的部分"},{"start":8878.87,"end":8880.87,"text":"我們覺得立法有立法委員覺得"},{"start":8880.87,"end":8882.87,"text":"教育部版本出現了錯誤"},{"start":8882.87,"end":8884.87,"text":"還是大家根本要去否決"},{"start":8884.87,"end":8886.87,"text":"109年校事會議的提出"},{"start":8886.87,"end":8888.87,"text":"甚至回溯到108年"},{"start":8888.87,"end":8890.87,"text":"因為要處理非常多"},{"start":8890.87,"end":8892.87,"text":"不適任教師 而提出的教師法"},{"start":8892.87,"end":8894.87,"text":"修法 我發現有法理上"},{"start":8894.87,"end":8896.87,"text":"一層一層往上推的荒謬"},{"start":8896.87,"end":8898.87,"text":"我不確定教育部知不知道"},{"start":8898.87,"end":8900.87,"text":"等一下我們在教務委員會"},{"start":8900.87,"end":8902.87,"text":"後續如果要處理校事會議的部分"},{"start":8902.87,"end":8904.87,"text":"會發生哪些法理上層次的問題"},{"start":8904.87,"end":8906.87,"text":"但我就先提出來 這是一個部分"},{"start":8906.87,"end":8908.87,"text":"再來 我非常認同"},{"start":8908.87,"end":8910.87,"text":"我之前"},{"start":8910.87,"end":8912.87,"text":"從3年前進到立法院"},{"start":8912.87,"end":8914.87,"text":"我就一直在跟教育部講一件事情"},{"start":8914.87,"end":8916.87,"text":"我也不確定教育部現在的進度"},{"start":8916.87,"end":8918.87,"text":"但是我相信是在場大家"},{"start":8918.87,"end":8920.87,"text":"共同的共識 就是要解決"},{"start":8920.87,"end":8922.87,"text":"親師生的衝突"},{"start":8922.87,"end":8924.87,"text":"不能把所有的工作都壓在"},{"start":8924.87,"end":8926.87,"text":"學校老師身上 我當時就一直"},{"start":8926.87,"end":8928.87,"text":"告訴部長 我們最關鍵是"},{"start":8928.87,"end":8930.87,"text":"如果沒有處理家庭教育"},{"start":8930.87,"end":8932.87,"text":"如果沒有處理家庭教育"},{"start":8932.87,"end":8934.87,"text":"如果沒有因地制宜的"},{"start":8934.87,"end":8936.87,"text":"去處理家庭教育 其實所有的"},{"start":8936.87,"end":8938.87,"text":"困境 所有的痛苦 是"},{"start":8938.87,"end":8940.87,"text":"是教育部的教師在承擔"},{"start":8940.87,"end":8942.87,"text":"是行政人員在承擔"},{"start":8942.87,"end":8944.87,"text":"是所有在學校好好上課的"},{"start":8944.87,"end":8946.87,"text":"孩子在承擔"},{"start":8946.87,"end":8948.87,"text":"而所有我們發現在"},{"start":8948.87,"end":8950.87,"text":"濫俗的狀況當中 確實有很多"},{"start":8950.87,"end":8952.87,"text":"是因為家庭教育出了問題"},{"start":8952.87,"end":8954.87,"text":"那家庭教育出了問題"},{"start":8954.87,"end":8956.87,"text":"過去相關在教育部的費用裡面"},{"start":8956.87,"end":8958.87,"text":"是歸中生教育司"},{"start":8958.87,"end":8960.87,"text":"而中生教育司我們發現這連續3年來相關的"},{"start":8960.87,"end":8962.87,"text":"預算 不論是因為受到"},{"start":8962.87,"end":8964.87,"text":"菜畫法沒有提升 還是過去可能"},{"start":8964.87,"end":8966.87,"text":"不在部長您的政策視野當中"},{"start":8966.87,"end":8968.87,"text":"所以說家庭教育現在是大家"},{"start":8968.87,"end":8970.87,"text":"認為最有可能"},{"start":8970.87,"end":8972.87,"text":"逐步化減校園"},{"start":8972.87,"end":8974.87,"text":"親師生衝突 教育部"},{"start":8974.87,"end":8976.87,"text":"必須要開始施力的地方"},{"start":8976.87,"end":8978.87,"text":"唯有把家庭教育這一塊的量能"},{"start":8978.87,"end":8980.87,"text":"跟資源提升上來"},{"start":8980.87,"end":8982.87,"text":"才有可能間接的減少"},{"start":8982.87,"end":8984.87,"text":"學校老師在面對"},{"start":8984.87,"end":8986.87,"text":"家長的壓力 甚至未來"},{"start":8986.87,"end":8988.87,"text":"不論是第三方也好 甚至我們"},{"start":8988.87,"end":8990.87,"text":"更勇敢的去想像一個雙導師"},{"start":8990.87,"end":8992.87,"text":"的狀況 去減少老師的行政"},{"start":8992.87,"end":8994.87,"text":"負擔 減少老師的教學負擔"},{"start":8994.87,"end":8996.87,"text":"減少老師的親師生溝通的負擔"},{"start":8996.87,"end":8998.87,"text":"我認為都是教育部未來"},{"start":8998.87,"end":9000.87,"text":"要去想像跟考慮"},{"start":9000.87,"end":9002.87,"text":"如何更加協助學校老師這件事情"},{"start":9002.87,"end":9004.87,"text":"同時我也要說"},{"start":9004.87,"end":9006.87,"text":"校師會議這件事情的困境"},{"start":9006.87,"end":9008.87,"text":"如果現在"},{"start":9008.87,"end":9010.87,"text":"真的如同很多老師所說的"},{"start":9010.87,"end":9012.87,"text":"是老師在承擔 但我相信"},{"start":9012.87,"end":9014.87,"text":"我也要再次提醒所有的委員跟"},{"start":9014.87,"end":9016.87,"text":"部長 其實很多家長"},{"start":9016.87,"end":9018.87,"text":"也在承擔這個困境"},{"start":9018.87,"end":9020.87,"text":"他們可能也真的很想要好好"},{"start":9020.87,"end":9022.87,"text":"做家庭教育 但是面對數位"},{"start":9022.87,"end":9024.87,"text":"時代的孩子 面對不同"},{"start":9024.87,"end":9026.87,"text":"典範時代的 典範在"},{"start":9026.87,"end":9028.87,"text":"做轉移的這個時代 其實很多"},{"start":9028.87,"end":9030.87,"text":"老師他面對教學方法也好"},{"start":9030.87,"end":9032.87,"text":"班級經營也好 親師生溝通也好"},{"start":9032.87,"end":9034.87,"text":"他們也更需要教育部的支持"},{"start":9034.87,"end":9036.87,"text":"而學生也是 家長也是"},{"start":9036.87,"end":9038.87,"text":"所以拜託未來 我當然看到在"},{"start":9038.87,"end":9040.87,"text":"教育部相關資料裡面有說"},{"start":9040.87,"end":9042.87,"text":"會健全家庭教育 但我認為"},{"start":9042.87,"end":9044.87,"text":"這應該是未來部長您"},{"start":9044.87,"end":9046.87,"text":"重要的施政方向 如何讓"},{"start":9046.87,"end":9048.87,"text":"家庭教育的量能提升"},{"start":9048.87,"end":9050.87,"text":"讓老師有感 讓家長有感 讓學生"},{"start":9050.87,"end":9052.87,"text":"有感 我認為是部長未來您"},{"start":9052.87,"end":9054.87,"text":"非常重大的考驗"},{"start":9054.98,"end":9058.98,"text":"好 以上我是不是讓部長簡單回應一下家庭教育"},{"start":9058.98,"end":9060.98,"text":"謝謝委員 我想我們這個"},{"start":9060.98,"end":9062.98,"text":"校事會議這個送"},{"start":9062.98,"end":9064.98,"text":"這個大宴備查 當然也"},{"start":9064.98,"end":9066.98,"text":"希望能夠 我們委員能夠"},{"start":9066.98,"end":9068.98,"text":"給我們一些指正"},{"start":9068.98,"end":9070.98,"text":"假設我們有一些法令"},{"start":9070.98,"end":9072.98,"text":"上或者有"},{"start":9072.98,"end":9074.98,"text":"自愛難行或者違反這個"},{"start":9074.98,"end":9076.98,"text":"法令的一個本意精神"},{"start":9076.98,"end":9078.98,"text":"我想我們都樂意"},{"start":9078.98,"end":9080.98,"text":"這一個來從善如流"},{"start":9080.98,"end":9082.98,"text":"那剛才委員特別提到的"},{"start":9082.98,"end":9084.98,"text":"這個親師合作"},{"start":9084.98,"end":9086.98,"text":"這確實也是我們這一個"},{"start":9088.47,"end":9090.47,"text":"應該說從開始在思考"},{"start":9090.47,"end":9092.47,"text":"校事會議怎麼調整我們"},{"start":9092.47,"end":9094.47,"text":"跟地方的一個座談"},{"start":9094.47,"end":9096.47,"text":"裡面看到這個親師"},{"start":9096.47,"end":9098.47,"text":"一定程度上的一個緊張"},{"start":9098.47,"end":9100.47,"text":"怎麼樣去讓親師合作才能夠"},{"start":9100.47,"end":9102.47,"text":"真正維護到小孩子的"},{"start":9102.47,"end":9104.47,"text":"學生的受教權 這確實是我們"},{"start":9104.47,"end":9106.47,"text":"未來應該更積極"},{"start":9106.47,"end":9108.47,"text":"加強的一個重點 好"},{"start":9108.47,"end":9110.47,"text":"以上謝謝部長 謝謝主席 有點超過時間"},{"start":9112.44,"end":9114.44,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9114.22,"end":9116.22,"text":"委員謝謝部長"},{"start":9117.31,"end":9119.31,"text":"稍後再"},{"start":9118.9,"end":9120.9,"text":"院支委員"},{"start":9120.9,"end":9122.9,"text":"尋答完畢後 休息五分鐘"},{"start":9125.51,"end":9127.51,"text":"現在有請院支委員"},{"start":9138.96,"end":9140.96,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 謝謝"},{"start":9140.96,"end":9142.96,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":9148.01,"end":9150.01,"text":"部長好 首先我非常"},{"start":9150.01,"end":9152.01,"text":"先跟召委感謝一下"},{"start":9152.01,"end":9154.01,"text":"今天特別有排"},{"start":9154.01,"end":9156.01,"text":"我的提案 就是國民轉介"},{"start":9156.01,"end":9158.01,"text":"教育條例草案 這個"},{"start":9158.01,"end":9160.01,"text":"就是安心上學法案"},{"start":9160.01,"end":9162.01,"text":"我先講一下 我們當初提這個"},{"start":9162.01,"end":9164.01,"text":"案子最主要想要解決校園"},{"start":9164.01,"end":9166.01,"text":"安全的問題"},{"start":9166.01,"end":9168.01,"text":"因為像幾年前在新北市"},{"start":9168.01,"end":9170.01,"text":"發生了土城的割井案"},{"start":9170.01,"end":9172.01,"text":"還有我們看到"},{"start":9172.01,"end":9174.01,"text":"前一段時間也有新北市另外一個國中"},{"start":9174.01,"end":9176.01,"text":"有學生拿著呂棒"},{"start":9176.01,"end":9178.01,"text":"往另外一個學生的頭上敲下去"},{"start":9178.01,"end":9180.01,"text":"那個聲音非常清脆"},{"start":9180.01,"end":9182.01,"text":"一不小心"},{"start":9182.01,"end":9184.01,"text":"可能就有生命的危險"},{"start":9184.01,"end":9186.01,"text":"昨天我在網路上"},{"start":9186.01,"end":9188.01,"text":"也看到一個影片"},{"start":9188.01,"end":9190.01,"text":"是好幾個學生在打架"},{"start":9190.01,"end":9192.01,"text":"打得非常兇狠 然後老師"},{"start":9192.01,"end":9194.01,"text":"要去勸架 老師完全都沒有辦法"},{"start":9194.01,"end":9196.01,"text":"甚至於其他學生還說"},{"start":9196.01,"end":9198.01,"text":"老師小心 像這樣子"},{"start":9198.01,"end":9200.01,"text":"一個危險的學生"},{"start":9200.01,"end":9202.01,"text":"在校園裡面"},{"start":9202.01,"end":9204.01,"text":"其實如果只要一個學校"},{"start":9204.01,"end":9206.01,"text":"有一個的話 整個全校都會非常害怕"},{"start":9208.01,"end":9210.01,"text":"那我們為了要保護"},{"start":9210.01,"end":9212.01,"text":"善良的學生 我們為了要保護"},{"start":9212.01,"end":9214.01,"text":"老師能夠在學校好好的教書"},{"start":9214.01,"end":9216.01,"text":"我們為了要保護"},{"start":9216.01,"end":9218.01,"text":"所有想要上課的學生"},{"start":9218.01,"end":9220.01,"text":"在學校可以好好的上課"},{"start":9220.01,"end":9222.01,"text":"我覺得如果有一些"},{"start":9222.01,"end":9224.01,"text":"特別危險的"},{"start":9224.01,"end":9226.01,"text":"學生 比如說平常帶刀上課"},{"start":9226.01,"end":9228.01,"text":"比如說對其他"},{"start":9228.01,"end":9230.01,"text":"師生有生命安全的"},{"start":9230.01,"end":9232.01,"text":"這一種學生 我們應該"},{"start":9232.01,"end":9234.01,"text":"要有一個機制"},{"start":9234.01,"end":9236.01,"text":"透過專家評估"},{"start":9236.01,"end":9238.01,"text":"強制他轉學 轉學到一個"},{"start":9238.01,"end":9240.01,"text":"這個教育部另外設立的"},{"start":9240.01,"end":9242.01,"text":"專屬學校 而且加強資源"},{"start":9242.01,"end":9244.01,"text":"我覺得這個是為了要解決"},{"start":9244.01,"end":9246.01,"text":"教育現場現在失序的問題"},{"start":9246.01,"end":9248.01,"text":"但很遺憾喔 看到"},{"start":9248.01,"end":9250.01,"text":"教育部的報告"},{"start":9250.01,"end":9252.01,"text":"完全都是用負面的角度來解讀這個法案"},{"start":9253.61,"end":9255.61,"text":"講了一個東西啊"},{"start":9255.61,"end":9257.61,"text":"說應該要行政先行 去標籤化"},{"start":9257.61,"end":9259.61,"text":"什麼叫行政先行 去標籤化"},{"start":9259.61,"end":9261.61,"text":"就是說"},{"start":9262.51,"end":9264.51,"text":"標籤化就是司法嘛"},{"start":9264.51,"end":9266.51,"text":"然後說在司法介入之前"},{"start":9266.51,"end":9268.51,"text":"應該要由教育 社政等行政體系"},{"start":9268.51,"end":9270.51,"text":"優先提供關懷與輔導"},{"start":9270.51,"end":9272.51,"text":"避免兒少因為偏差的行為"},{"start":9272.51,"end":9274.51,"text":"直接進入到司法程序"},{"start":9274.51,"end":9276.51,"text":"而承受負面標籤"},{"start":9276.29,"end":9278.29,"text":"Bia"},{"start":9278.33,"end":9280.33,"text":"其實你如果說用"},{"start":9280.33,"end":9282.33,"text":"教育部你現在在報告裡面"},{"start":9282.33,"end":9284.33,"text":"所提出來的那些所謂的機制"},{"start":9284.33,"end":9286.33,"text":"比如說叫他上高關懷課程"},{"start":9286.33,"end":9288.33,"text":"比如說叫他去中途學校"},{"start":9288.33,"end":9290.33,"text":"這就給他標籤化了啦"},{"start":9290.92,"end":9292.92,"text":"這就是標籤化了啦"},{"start":9292.92,"end":9294.92,"text":"第二個行政先行就是沒有用嘛"},{"start":9294.92,"end":9296.92,"text":"現在教育部要去思考的是"},{"start":9296.92,"end":9298.92,"text":"怎麼樣在你所謂的"},{"start":9298.92,"end":9300.92,"text":"在加害的同學的"},{"start":9300.92,"end":9302.92,"text":"去標籤化的這個利益"},{"start":9302.92,"end":9304.92,"text":"以及教學秩序的這個利益"},{"start":9304.92,"end":9306.92,"text":"兩個出去平衡哪個重要嘛"},{"start":9306.92,"end":9308.92,"text":"因為你不想要讓加害者"},{"start":9308.92,"end":9310.92,"text":"有標籤化 所以整個"},{"start":9310.92,"end":9312.92,"text":"教育市場就失序"},{"start":9312.92,"end":9314.92,"text":"然後學生就應該要"},{"start":9314.92,"end":9316.92,"text":"受害 你知道像"},{"start":9316.92,"end":9318.92,"text":"一個學校只要有一個我剛剛講的那種學生"},{"start":9318.92,"end":9320.92,"text":"他怎麼樣才可以離開教學現場嗎"},{"start":9320.92,"end":9322.92,"text":"有人被殺啦"},{"start":9324.69,"end":9326.69,"text":"有人受害啦"},{"start":9327.04,"end":9329.04,"text":"才有辦法離開 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我想要"},{"start":9356.37,"end":9358.37,"text":"請楊爸爸到"},{"start":9357.93,"end":9359.93,"text":"我們備詢"},{"start":9359.93,"end":9361.93,"text":"有請楊先生請到備詢台"},{"start":9367.18,"end":9369.18,"text":"楊爸爸我跟您請教一下"},{"start":9369.18,"end":9371.18,"text":"以您的這個"},{"start":9371.18,"end":9373.18,"text":"自身的案例您覺得"},{"start":9373.18,"end":9375.18,"text":"以現在的教育體制"},{"start":9375.18,"end":9377.18,"text":"楊同學有辦法被保護住嗎"},{"start":9377.18,"end":9379.18,"text":"楊爸您可以 部長也在"},{"start":9379.18,"end":9381.18,"text":"也在台下 您看看有什麼話可以跟他說"},{"start":9382.32,"end":9384.32,"text":"其實以我現在來看"},{"start":9386.37,"end":9388.37,"text":"我兒子還是沒辦法被保護住"},{"start":9390,"end":9392,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":9391.57,"end":9393.57,"text":"這兩個小朋友"},{"start":9393.57,"end":9395.57,"text":"就像"},{"start":9395.48,"end":9397.48,"text":"鐵拳教育的第六集一樣"},{"start":9398.65,"end":9400.65,"text":"他們認為他們就是未成年"},{"start":9402.03,"end":9404.03,"text":"他們有無底星星了"},{"start":9405.42,"end":9407.42,"text":"更何況"},{"start":9407.93,"end":9409.93,"text":"劇中的那幾個小朋友都會"},{"start":9410.99,"end":9412.99,"text":"假裝的"},{"start":9412.99,"end":9414.99,"text":"九十度驅逐光"},{"start":9414.99,"end":9416.99,"text":"我們的"},{"start":9416.3,"end":9418.3,"text":"沒有"},{"start":9418.06,"end":9420.06,"text":"他們是更離譜"},{"start":9420.4,"end":9422.4,"text":"真的非常離譜的兩個人"},{"start":9423.17,"end":9425.17,"text":"結果咧"},{"start":9425.06,"end":9427.06,"text":"他們真的"},{"start":9428.32,"end":9430.32,"text":"兩個是"},{"start":9429.64,"end":9431.64,"text":"先後到清水高中喔"},{"start":9433.38,"end":9435.38,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":9435.38,"end":9437.38,"text":"他們之前的行政處理一堆"},{"start":9437.38,"end":9439.38,"text":"真的行政處理一堆"},{"start":9440.27,"end":9442.27,"text":"你們講"},{"start":9441.55,"end":9443.55,"text":"很多都講說你們的行政處理做的很好"},{"start":9445.21,"end":9447.21,"text":"為什麼行政處理變成"},{"start":9447.83,"end":9449.83,"text":"養了兩個殺人犯出來咧"},{"start":9450.85,"end":9452.85,"text":"這叫做你們的行政處理嗎"},{"start":9453.58,"end":9455.58,"text":"我不相信你們的行政處理是這種方式的"},{"start":9458.34,"end":9460.34,"text":"難道是"},{"start":9460.9,"end":9462.9,"text":"應該這麼講"},{"start":9462.74,"end":9464.74,"text":"你們只是讓他寫"},{"start":9464.74,"end":9466.74,"text":"超寫佛經、心經"},{"start":9466.74,"end":9468.74,"text":"有用嗎"},{"start":9469.56,"end":9471.56,"text":"如果有用的話"},{"start":9471.56,"end":9473.56,"text":"那我們以後的小孩子"},{"start":9473.56,"end":9475.56,"text":"通通叫他們超寫佛經、心經"},{"start":9475.56,"end":9477.56,"text":"每個都可以成仙成佛了"},{"start":9476.94,"end":9478.94,"text":"是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9478.88,"end":9480.88,"text":"他們超寫沒有用嘛"},{"start":9482.83,"end":9484.83,"text":"然後你們"},{"start":9485.58,"end":9487.58,"text":"只是就是所謂的行政處理"},{"start":9487.58,"end":9489.58,"text":"所謂的行政處理是什麼"},{"start":9490.54,"end":9492.54,"text":"我不知道 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根據學生輔導法"},{"start":9817.16,"end":9819.16,"text":"加強輔導資源沒有用"},{"start":9819.16,"end":9821.16,"text":"輔導就是沒有用啊"},{"start":9821.16,"end":9823.16,"text":"然後另外你說會有詞揮"},{"start":9823.16,"end":9825.16,"text":"針對就學適應問題詞揮班這些"},{"start":9825.16,"end":9827.16,"text":"這些主要是針對錯學生"},{"start":9827.16,"end":9829.16,"text":"也不是針對這些有高風險的"},{"start":9829.16,"end":9831.16,"text":"學生啊"},{"start":9831.16,"end":9833.16,"text":"然後其他"},{"start":9833.16,"end":9835.16,"text":"還有就是像最後一個"},{"start":9834.89,"end":9836.89,"text":"少年法庭裁定進入矯正教育"},{"start":9836.89,"end":9838.89,"text":"這個是他已經犯法"},{"start":9838.89,"end":9840.89,"text":"他已經殺人了"},{"start":9840.37,"end":9842.37,"text":"那我想要解決的問題是什麼"},{"start":9842.37,"end":9844.37,"text":"我想要解決的問題就是他有問題"},{"start":9844.37,"end":9846.37,"text":"但他還沒有到殺人的時候"},{"start":9846.37,"end":9848.37,"text":"我們不能夠等到他殺人才離開"},{"start":9848.37,"end":9850.37,"text":"我們怎麼在他還沒有"},{"start":9850.37,"end":9852.37,"text":"犯法之前評估"},{"start":9852.37,"end":9854.37,"text":"他有極高的風險"},{"start":9854.37,"end":9856.37,"text":"可能會做出傷害別人的事情的時候"},{"start":9856.37,"end":9858.37,"text":"我們有個專家機制"},{"start":9858.37,"end":9860.37,"text":"然後強制他轉學到一個"},{"start":9860.37,"end":9862.37,"text":"教育部所設立一個專屬的學校"},{"start":9862.37,"end":9864.37,"text":"或機構"},{"start":9864.37,"end":9866.37,"text":"這個我們可以討論"},{"start":9866.37,"end":9868.37,"text":"技術性的問題我們可以討論"},{"start":9868.37,"end":9870.37,"text":"所以方向上你光是講說"},{"start":9870.37,"end":9872.37,"text":"這個東西會標籤化"},{"start":9872.91,"end":9876.91,"text":"部長我都覺得你沒有用很正面的態度來"},{"start":9876.91,"end":9878.91,"text":"看待我想要解決這個問題的心"},{"start":9878.91,"end":9880.91,"text":"部長先讓你簡單回應一下"},{"start":9880.91,"end":9882.91,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":9882.91,"end":9884.91,"text":"確實我想加害者的權益"},{"start":9884.91,"end":9886.91,"text":"我們不應該"},{"start":9886.91,"end":9888.91,"text":"他應該要對他的行為付出責任"},{"start":9888.91,"end":9890.91,"text":"或者我們講非行少年到"},{"start":9890.91,"end":9892.91,"text":"還沒有當他沒有"},{"start":9892.91,"end":9894.91,"text":"真正到這個自人"},{"start":9894.91,"end":9896.91,"text":"生命上的一些安全"},{"start":9896.91,"end":9898.91,"text":"危險的時候我們怎麼樣"},{"start":9898.91,"end":9900.91,"text":"學校的系統有一個更好的"},{"start":9900.91,"end":9902.91,"text":"處置的方案"},{"start":9902.91,"end":9904.91,"text":"我想我們認真"},{"start":9904.91,"end":9906.91,"text":"來思考這個議題"},{"start":9906.91,"end":9908.91,"text":"然後找委員所說的學者專家"},{"start":9908.91,"end":9910.91,"text":"包括教育現場"},{"start":9910.91,"end":9912.91,"text":"我們來看怎麼樣來處理這一塊"},{"start":9912.91,"end":9914.91,"text":"你現在就是沒有辦法"},{"start":9914.91,"end":9916.91,"text":"因為部長"},{"start":9916.91,"end":9918.91,"text":"我關心這個議題的言多了"},{"start":9918.91,"end":9920.91,"text":"委員希望有一個終界的"},{"start":9920.91,"end":9922.91,"text":"一個學校"},{"start":9922.91,"end":9924.91,"text":"可能是機構可能是學校"},{"start":9924.91,"end":9926.91,"text":"或者可能是一個什麼樣的形態"},{"start":9926.91,"end":9928.91,"text":"我想我們認真思考"},{"start":9928.91,"end":9930.91,"text":"其實我有思考到就是說"},{"start":9930.91,"end":9932.91,"text":"我們最不要他標籤化"},{"start":9932.91,"end":9934.91,"text":"就是讓他轉學到那個專屬學校"},{"start":9934.91,"end":9936.91,"text":"那個學校也是一個"},{"start":9936.91,"end":9938.91,"text":"可以正常上課"},{"start":9938.91,"end":9940.91,"text":"你也是上他喜歡的課程"},{"start":9940.91,"end":9942.91,"text":"然後你加強輔導"},{"start":9942.91,"end":9944.91,"text":"你找很會就是一些教育團體"},{"start":9944.91,"end":9946.91,"text":"應該他們都很有理念"},{"start":9946.91,"end":9948.91,"text":"我們因為這個"},{"start":9948.91,"end":9950.91,"text":"班級學校的一個教育裡邊"},{"start":9950.91,"end":9952.91,"text":"他這個班級統一的一個教材"},{"start":9952.91,"end":9954.91,"text":"統一的課程"},{"start":9954.91,"end":9956.91,"text":"所以我們也感謝委員"},{"start":9956.91,"end":9958.91,"text":"這個大院過去有所謂的實驗教育"},{"start":9958.91,"end":9960.91,"text":"有許多的home 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被投入到"},{"start":10154.7,"end":10156.7,"text":"校事會議列入日常"},{"start":10156.7,"end":10158.7,"text":"生活表現記錄"},{"start":10158.7,"end":10160.7,"text":"老師拿一個小本本記錄"},{"start":10160.7,"end":10162.7,"text":"下來也純記錄而已達不到什麼"},{"start":10162.7,"end":10164.7,"text":"實質的效果"},{"start":10164.7,"end":10166.7,"text":"然後教育部講說"},{"start":10166.7,"end":10168.7,"text":"這個不用學生自己遲到"},{"start":10168.7,"end":10170.7,"text":"就是要負責啊對不對這個每一個"},{"start":10170.7,"end":10172.7,"text":"要為自己的人生負責啊沒錯"},{"start":10172.7,"end":10174.7,"text":"然後講說呢"},{"start":10174.7,"end":10176.7,"text":"初學期會列入管理"},{"start":10176.7,"end":10178.7,"text":"該科成績可能不及格可能影響"},{"start":10178.7,"end":10180.7,"text":"畢業資格但是"},{"start":10181.52,"end":10183.52,"text":"因為以前記過大家會比較緊張"},{"start":10183.52,"end":10185.52,"text":"原因是因為"},{"start":10186.21,"end":10188.21,"text":"那個記過可能會留校查看"},{"start":10188.21,"end":10190.21,"text":"可能會退學現在記過根本沒差"},{"start":10190.21,"end":10192.21,"text":"十個大多二十個大多都沒有差"},{"start":10192.21,"end":10194.21,"text":"那這"},{"start":10194.21,"end":10196.21,"text":"影響畢業資格我們可以"},{"start":10196.21,"end":10198.21,"text":"我們可以看一下影響畢業資格其實也是"},{"start":10198.21,"end":10200.21,"text":"蠻困難的為什麼呢因為"},{"start":10200.79,"end":10202.79,"text":"你國中三年的總糖數"},{"start":10202.79,"end":10204.79,"text":"大概是四千兩百糖"},{"start":10204.79,"end":10206.79,"text":"你要缺課"},{"start":10206.79,"end":10208.79,"text":"超過一千四百糖"},{"start":10209.63,"end":10211.63,"text":"你才拿不到畢業證書"},{"start":10211.63,"end":10213.63,"text":"等於是你一週可以缺課超過十糖"},{"start":10213.63,"end":10215.63,"text":"十糖以內都是合理的範圍"},{"start":10215.63,"end":10217.63,"text":"這個拿到畢業證書"},{"start":10217.63,"end":10219.63,"text":"門檻非常低"},{"start":10219.63,"end":10221.63,"text":"那就算拿不到畢業證書啊就算"},{"start":10221.63,"end":10223.63,"text":"缺課實在非常多拿不到畢業證書"},{"start":10223.63,"end":10225.63,"text":"也可以有休業證書"},{"start":10225.63,"end":10227.63,"text":"休業證書照樣可以升學"},{"start":10227.63,"end":10229.63,"text":"所以我現在不是要來"},{"start":10229.63,"end":10231.63,"text":"挑戰教育部講這個圖"},{"start":10231.63,"end":10233.63,"text":"我只是說你們所提到"},{"start":10233.63,"end":10235.63,"text":"提出來的所有的管教方法"},{"start":10235.63,"end":10237.63,"text":"在一線"},{"start":10237.71,"end":10239.71,"text":"是完全沒有用"},{"start":10240.04,"end":10242.04,"text":"那完全沒有用會產生什麼狀況呢"},{"start":10242.04,"end":10244.04,"text":"破窗效應"},{"start":10243.46,"end":10245.46,"text":"只要班上有幾個學生"},{"start":10245.46,"end":10247.46,"text":"是習慣性的缺課或遲到"},{"start":10247.46,"end":10249.46,"text":"整個班就非常難帶"},{"start":10249.46,"end":10251.46,"text":"老師會很難帶這個班"},{"start":10251.06,"end":10253.06,"text":"所以部長這個"},{"start":10253.06,"end":10255.06,"text":"部長可以去統計一下喔"},{"start":10254.57,"end":10256.57,"text":"你可以去統計一下不同的縣市"},{"start":10256.57,"end":10258.57,"text":"每個學生平均"},{"start":10259.87,"end":10261.87,"text":"到了期末的時候因為缺課會預警嘛"},{"start":10261.87,"end":10265.87,"text":"你去調查一下全班大概幾分之幾的要被預警"},{"start":10266.43,"end":10268.43,"text":"我的了解大概五分之一到十分之一的學生"},{"start":10268.43,"end":10270.43,"text":"因為缺課遲到被預警"},{"start":10272.12,"end":10274.12,"text":"所以這個是很嚴重的事"},{"start":10274.12,"end":10276.12,"text":"這個不是說教育部"},{"start":10276.12,"end":10278.12,"text":"po一個圖表好像問題就解決了"},{"start":10278.12,"end":10280.12,"text":"我真建議"},{"start":10280.12,"end":10282.12,"text":"教育部的官員當一日"},{"start":10282.12,"end":10284.12,"text":"導師試試看你去了解一下"},{"start":10284.12,"end":10286.12,"text":"現在的教學現場是有多麼的難"},{"start":10286.12,"end":10288.12,"text":"管理部長您了解這個狀況嗎"},{"start":10289.97,"end":10291.97,"text":"簡單簡單回答一下"},{"start":10291.97,"end":10293.97,"text":"我確實在這個現場"},{"start":10293.97,"end":10295.97,"text":"裡面有多少比例"},{"start":10295.97,"end":10297.97,"text":"學生這個缺課"},{"start":10297.97,"end":10299.97,"text":"整班的這個我確實是"},{"start":10299.97,"end":10301.97,"text":"比較陌生"},{"start":10301.97,"end":10303.97,"text":"比較陌生"},{"start":10303.97,"end":10305.97,"text":"我是跟你講你們提出來的那些方法"},{"start":10306.51,"end":10308.51,"text":"你們提出來的方法都沒有用"},{"start":10308.51,"end":10310.51,"text":"而且很多老師還覺得"},{"start":10310.51,"end":10312.51,"text":"現在教育部在教老師怎麼去管學生"},{"start":10312.51,"end":10314.51,"text":"我想委員我必須要同意"},{"start":10314.51,"end":10316.51,"text":"委員一定程度的看法"},{"start":10316.51,"end":10318.51,"text":"就是社會在快速的一個發展"},{"start":10318.51,"end":10320.51,"text":"那我們怎麼樣學校教育的管教辦完"},{"start":10320.51,"end":10322.51,"text":"也能夠以實際進"},{"start":10322.51,"end":10324.51,"text":"這我們來"},{"start":10324.51,"end":10326.51,"text":"這一個來"},{"start":10326.51,"end":10328.51,"text":"要提辦法出來啦部長好不好"},{"start":10328.51,"end":10330.51,"text":"大概什麼時候可以提一個辦法出來"},{"start":10330.51,"end":10332.51,"text":"我想我們還是跟"},{"start":10332.51,"end":10334.51,"text":"這個家長老師學生"},{"start":10334.51,"end":10336.51,"text":"討論討論"},{"start":10336.51,"end":10338.51,"text":"然後真正做一個比較"},{"start":10338.51,"end":10340.51,"text":"缺合第一線上真正"},{"start":10340.51,"end":10342.51,"text":"實際的一個情況來"},{"start":10342.51,"end":10344.51,"text":"其實你可以看一下"},{"start":10344.51,"end":10346.51,"text":"你的那個教育部的臉書"},{"start":10346.51,"end":10348.51,"text":"那天po那個圖表出來"},{"start":10348.51,"end":10350.51,"text":"下面有兩三千則留言"},{"start":10350.51,"end":10352.51,"text":"你可以去看他們的留言"},{"start":10352.51,"end":10354.51,"text":"那都很多我看好像都是一線老師的回應"},{"start":10354.51,"end":10356.51,"text":"那也是你輿情收集的方式"},{"start":10356.51,"end":10358.51,"text":"教育部不要說只是"},{"start":10358.51,"end":10360.51,"text":"只會po圖啦"},{"start":10360.51,"end":10362.51,"text":"應該社群不是只是在澄清"},{"start":10362.51,"end":10364.51,"text":"收集輿情"},{"start":10364.51,"end":10366.51,"text":"還有一個點"},{"start":10366.51,"end":10368.51,"text":"最近大家在討論這個正向教育"},{"start":10369.97,"end":10371.97,"text":"正向教育"},{"start":10371.54,"end":10373.54,"text":"到"},{"start":10372.93,"end":10374.93,"text":"正向教育不是不好"},{"start":10374.93,"end":10376.93,"text":"正向教育非常好"},{"start":10376.93,"end":10378.93,"text":"但是正向教育當初"},{"start":10378.93,"end":10380.93,"text":"一開始的時候"},{"start":10380.93,"end":10382.93,"text":"是針對家庭教育就是說"},{"start":10382.93,"end":10384.93,"text":"希望爸媽在對小朋友教育的時候"},{"start":10384.93,"end":10386.93,"text":"要用正向教育"},{"start":10386.93,"end":10388.93,"text":"那如果放到學校一對多的時候"},{"start":10390.29,"end":10392.29,"text":"你全部都用正向教育"},{"start":10392.29,"end":10394.29,"text":"同樣的也會面臨到教學"},{"start":10394.29,"end":10396.29,"text":"跟教育次序"},{"start":10396.29,"end":10398.29,"text":"熟清熟重的一個落差"},{"start":10398.29,"end":10400.29,"text":"我就舉這個教育部的範例"},{"start":10400.29,"end":10402.29,"text":"你看一下"},{"start":10402.42,"end":10404.42,"text":"不敢看一下"},{"start":10404.42,"end":10406.42,"text":"右邊是你的範例"},{"start":10406.42,"end":10408.42,"text":"有個同學大聲罵同學罵學校"},{"start":10410.02,"end":10412.02,"text":"老師一開始不能夠跟學生說"},{"start":10412.02,"end":10414.02,"text":"老師一開始不能夠"},{"start":10414.02,"end":10416.02,"text":"制止他"},{"start":10416.02,"end":10418.02,"text":"要用正向教育要怎麼說呢"},{"start":10418.02,"end":10420.02,"text":"老師要去跟同學說"},{"start":10420.11,"end":10422.11,"text":"關於羅庭偉同學你大聲罵同學"},{"start":10422.11,"end":10424.11,"text":"罵學校這件事情"},{"start":10424.11,"end":10426.11,"text":"老師可以了解你對同學學校"},{"start":10426.11,"end":10428.11,"text":"很關心這是很好的"},{"start":10428.11,"end":10430.11,"text":"以後你還是要繼續關心同學"},{"start":10431.58,"end":10433.58,"text":"但是方法不對你可能會傷害別人"},{"start":10435.43,"end":10437.43,"text":"你不敢"},{"start":10437.56,"end":10439.56,"text":"假設今天有一個同學他"},{"start":10439.56,"end":10441.56,"text":"就是很惡意的亂罵同學"},{"start":10441.56,"end":10443.56,"text":"罵三字經講得很難聽"},{"start":10443.56,"end":10445.56,"text":"霸凌同學"},{"start":10446.01,"end":10448.01,"text":"拿著"},{"start":10447.5,"end":10449.5,"text":"老師碰到這一位同學"},{"start":10449.5,"end":10451.5,"text":"一開始的時候還要說"},{"start":10451.63,"end":10453.63,"text":"關於你霸凌同學這件事情呢"},{"start":10453.63,"end":10455.63,"text":"很好"},{"start":10455.28,"end":10457.28,"text":"表示你關心同學"},{"start":10457.66,"end":10459.66,"text":"或他罵三字經問候人家媽媽"},{"start":10459.66,"end":10461.66,"text":"關於你問候人家媽媽"},{"start":10461.66,"end":10463.66,"text":"這件事情很好"},{"start":10463.66,"end":10465.66,"text":"表示你關心人家媽媽"},{"start":10466.26,"end":10468.26,"text":"這我覺得太不切實際了吧"},{"start":10468.26,"end":10470.26,"text":"委員我想"},{"start":10470.26,"end":10472.26,"text":"有許多的案例他確實"},{"start":10472.26,"end":10474.26,"text":"教育的現場的困境就是"},{"start":10474.26,"end":10476.26,"text":"你不能用一個案例去解釋"},{"start":10476.26,"end":10478.26,"text":"這個是你們的範例嘛"},{"start":10478.26,"end":10480.26,"text":"就是說範例他自己一個情形"},{"start":10480.26,"end":10482.26,"text":"你給大家的範例人家就會造作"},{"start":10482.26,"end":10484.26,"text":"人家也很怕被投訴啊"},{"start":10484.26,"end":10486.26,"text":"直接講說你直接"},{"start":10486.26,"end":10488.26,"text":"三字經甚至有許多的這些"},{"start":10488.26,"end":10490.26,"text":"我想他一定有不同的處理"},{"start":10490.26,"end":10492.26,"text":"不是"},{"start":10492.26,"end":10494.26,"text":"當然這個因為你這個範例你是抽象的"},{"start":10494.26,"end":10496.26,"text":"當然他要含色很多實際狀況"},{"start":10496.26,"end":10498.26,"text":"但我講的也是罵同學的狀況"},{"start":10498.26,"end":10500.26,"text":"所以"},{"start":10500.26,"end":10502.26,"text":"你說把正向教育"},{"start":10502.26,"end":10504.26,"text":"簡化成形式上的向上"},{"start":10504.26,"end":10506.26,"text":"正向這其實是形式上正向"},{"start":10506.26,"end":10508.26,"text":"你反而忽略了教育的內涵"},{"start":10508.26,"end":10510.26,"text":"而且你這個"},{"start":10510.26,"end":10512.26,"text":"一開始的時候還肯定不當行為"},{"start":10512.26,"end":10514.26,"text":"背後的想像動機"},{"start":10514.26,"end":10516.26,"text":"這等於是有點主動幫"},{"start":10516.26,"end":10518.26,"text":"做錯事的孩子找藉口啊"},{"start":10519.42,"end":10521.42,"text":"另外我覺得一個重點"},{"start":10521.42,"end":10523.42,"text":"教育秩序的維護你忽略被罵同學"},{"start":10523.42,"end":10525.42,"text":"被影響者的感受"},{"start":10525.42,"end":10527.42,"text":"其實你還是傷害了其他孩子的受教權"},{"start":10527.42,"end":10529.42,"text":"所以其實我們現在"},{"start":10529.42,"end":10531.42,"text":"講的很多東西都是環環相扣的"},{"start":10531.86,"end":10533.86,"text":"就是我們現在所面臨到的"},{"start":10533.86,"end":10535.86,"text":"現在的教育現場是非常複雜的"},{"start":10535.86,"end":10537.86,"text":"跟以前已經很不一樣了"},{"start":10537.86,"end":10539.86,"text":"造成教育現場的失序"},{"start":10541.2,"end":10545.2,"text":"事實後針對我們這幾年教改"},{"start":10545.2,"end":10547.2,"text":"很多學者專家所提出來"},{"start":10547.2,"end":10549.2,"text":"他們認為很好的教育方式"},{"start":10549.2,"end":10551.2,"text":"我覺得事實後好好的檢討一下"},{"start":10551.2,"end":10553.2,"text":"正向教育沒有說一定不好"},{"start":10553.2,"end":10555.2,"text":"可是你檢討他的適用的方式"},{"start":10555.2,"end":10557.2,"text":"或者是檢討他的執行方式"},{"start":10557.2,"end":10559.2,"text":"還有就是面對那些"},{"start":10559.2,"end":10563.2,"text":"加害者同學的受教權"},{"start":10563.2,"end":10565.2,"text":"是不是過度的保護"},{"start":10565.18,"end":10567.18,"text":"然後另外就是老師的管教權"},{"start":10567.18,"end":10569.18,"text":"是不是不斷的限縮"},{"start":10569.18,"end":10571.18,"text":"導致於老師面對學生沒有工具"},{"start":10571.18,"end":10573.18,"text":"造成現場的失序"},{"start":10573.18,"end":10575.18,"text":"我覺得這個是一個整體的問題"},{"start":10575.18,"end":10577.18,"text":"所以我今天"},{"start":10577.18,"end":10579.18,"text":"因為有很多像校次會議"},{"start":10579.18,"end":10581.18,"text":"我之前都跟部長討論過"},{"start":10581.18,"end":10583.18,"text":"我今天都浪費時間"},{"start":10583.18,"end":10585.18,"text":"但是我覺得這個是整體的問題"},{"start":10585.18,"end":10587.18,"text":"所以真心的很希望部長"},{"start":10587.24,"end":10589.24,"text":"我們就面對問題"},{"start":10589.24,"end":10593.24,"text":"把教育現場的失序問題好好導正"},{"start":10593.24,"end":10595.24,"text":"因為我覺得現在的問題"},{"start":10595.24,"end":10597.24,"text":"真的是還蠻嚴重的"},{"start":10597.15,"end":10599.15,"text":"部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":10599.15,"end":10601.15,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":10601.15,"end":10603.15,"text":"我想以實俱進的一個"},{"start":10603.15,"end":10605.15,"text":"不管老師的一個管教權"},{"start":10605.15,"end":10607.15,"text":"專業管教權跟學生許多行為的規範"},{"start":10607.15,"end":10609.15,"text":"特別在國民教育裡面"},{"start":10609.15,"end":10611.15,"text":"是非常重要"},{"start":10611.15,"end":10613.15,"text":"我也完全同意委員所提的"},{"start":10613.15,"end":10617.15,"text":"我們來看怎麼樣以實俱進"},{"start":10617.15,"end":10619.15,"text":"是可以盡快好不好"},{"start":10619.15,"end":10621.15,"text":"大概您什麼時候"},{"start":10621.15,"end":10623.15,"text":"會給我們一個大概的方向"},{"start":10623.15,"end":10625.15,"text":"我想我們一方面"},{"start":10625.15,"end":10627.15,"text":"我跟學者專家請教"},{"start":10627.15,"end":10629.15,"text":"學者專業跟團體"},{"start":10629.15,"end":10631.15,"text":"包含學生"},{"start":10631.15,"end":10633.15,"text":"過去確實有以學生為主"},{"start":10633.15,"end":10635.15,"text":"學生的受教權不容挑戰"},{"start":10635.15,"end":10637.15,"text":"但是我們怎麼樣去保護"},{"start":10637.15,"end":10639.15,"text":"真正學習的學生"},{"start":10639.15,"end":10641.15,"text":"或者有一些行為已經預約規範的"},{"start":10641.15,"end":10643.15,"text":"我們怎樣把它導正"},{"start":10643.15,"end":10645.15,"text":"我想這一個確實"},{"start":10645.15,"end":10647.15,"text":"它是一個需要一些時間"},{"start":10647.15,"end":10649.15,"text":"我們來把它想一個比較清楚的"},{"start":10649.15,"end":10651.15,"text":"能夠歸納我們大家第一線上"},{"start":10651.15,"end":10653.15,"text":"特別老師們"},{"start":10653.15,"end":10655.15,"text":"的一些建議學生的建議"},{"start":10655.15,"end":10657.15,"text":"因為一樣的學生今天"},{"start":10657.15,"end":10659.15,"text":"因為有一位同學的干擾"},{"start":10659.15,"end":10661.15,"text":"讓他們沒有辦法安心學習"},{"start":10661.15,"end":10663.15,"text":"我想這些我們都"},{"start":10663.15,"end":10665.15,"text":"一併把它納進來"},{"start":10665.15,"end":10667.15,"text":"來研議看怎麼樣"},{"start":10667.15,"end":10669.15,"text":"有一個更適當的以實俱進的方法"},{"start":10669.15,"end":10671.15,"text":"好謝謝希望部長盡快"},{"start":10671.15,"end":10673.15,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10675.11,"end":10677.11,"text":"好謝謝部長請回"},{"start":10678.2,"end":10680.2,"text":"我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10680.2,"end":10682.2,"text":"稍後有請"},{"start":10682.2,"end":10684.2,"text":"一人之委員代理召委謝謝"},{"start":11019.13,"end":11021.13,"text":"好現在繼續開會"},{"start":11021.13,"end":11023.13,"text":"請陳秀寶委員進行巡答"},{"start":11033.81,"end":11035.81,"text":"謝謝主席請部長"},{"start":11036.95,"end":11038.95,"text":"請政務部長"},{"start":11045.67,"end":11047.67,"text":"部長好"},{"start":11047.67,"end":11049.67,"text":"部長一開始想先就"},{"start":11049.67,"end":11051.67,"text":"關於考生權益的部分"},{"start":11051.67,"end":11053.67,"text":"來跟部長請教"},{"start":11053.67,"end":11055.67,"text":"今年度的分科測驗因為遇到颱風"},{"start":11055.67,"end":11057.67,"text":"所以延遲到今天明天"},{"start":11057.67,"end":11059.67,"text":"就是13號14號來舉行"},{"start":11059.67,"end":11061.67,"text":"那本席想就這次的"},{"start":11061.67,"end":11063.67,"text":"應變措施跟部長來討論"},{"start":11063.67,"end":11065.67,"text":"大考中心是在"},{"start":11065.67,"end":11067.67,"text":"7月7號的時候"},{"start":11067.67,"end":11069.67,"text":"對外說明"},{"start":11069.67,"end":11071.67,"text":"對外說明說"},{"start":11071.67,"end":11073.67,"text":"分科測驗會延期"},{"start":11073.67,"end":11075.67,"text":"7月8號的時候確定說"},{"start":11075.67,"end":11077.67,"text":"延期到7月13號到14號"},{"start":11077.67,"end":11079.67,"text":"那也說明說學生"},{"start":11079.67,"end":11081.67,"text":"如果住的地方有停班停課"},{"start":11081.67,"end":11083.67,"text":"交通道路中斷"},{"start":11083.67,"end":11085.67,"text":"交通奏組的狀況"},{"start":11085.67,"end":11087.67,"text":"怕影響到今天明天前往"},{"start":11087.67,"end":11089.67,"text":"考場所以他們可以提前"},{"start":11089.67,"end":11091.67,"text":"依照實際的狀況"},{"start":11091.67,"end":11093.67,"text":"前往考區所在的"},{"start":11093.67,"end":11095.67,"text":"所在地準備"},{"start":11095.67,"end":11097.67,"text":"如果衍生出了住宿或交通"},{"start":11097.67,"end":11099.67,"text":"費用都可以來申請補助"},{"start":11099.67,"end":11101.67,"text":"那部長這有時候不是"},{"start":11101.67,"end":11103.67,"text":"這個延伸費用的問題"},{"start":11105,"end":11107,"text":"這一次的颱風其實"},{"start":11107,"end":11109,"text":"影響最嚴重的時間"},{"start":11109,"end":11111,"text":"就是週末"},{"start":11111,"end":11113,"text":"就是原本的考試時間11到12"},{"start":11113,"end":11115,"text":"那大考中心叫考生"},{"start":11115,"end":11117,"text":"在風災雨災最嚴重的"},{"start":11117,"end":11119,"text":"11到12離開他的"},{"start":11119,"end":11121,"text":"住所那前往"},{"start":11121,"end":11123,"text":"考試的地方做準備"},{"start":11123,"end":11125,"text":"這個是不是在"},{"start":11125,"end":11127,"text":"這個公佈的這個"},{"start":11127,"end":11129,"text":"我們所實施的這個"},{"start":11129,"end":11131,"text":"這個時候沒有去考慮到"},{"start":11131,"end":11133,"text":"學生他就是因為他可能"},{"start":11133,"end":11135,"text":"從他住的地方到考試的地方不方便"},{"start":11135,"end":11137,"text":"那您大考中心"},{"start":11137,"end":11139,"text":"建議他說是在風災雨災最嚴重的時候"},{"start":11139,"end":11141,"text":"最厲害的時候離開"},{"start":11141,"end":11143,"text":"再來"},{"start":11143.18,"end":11145.18,"text":"我們這次的颱風"},{"start":11145.18,"end":11147.18,"text":"我們延遲了就是往後延了兩天"},{"start":11147.18,"end":11149.18,"text":"就是6日變成"},{"start":11149.18,"end":11151.18,"text":"1、2嘛但是我們各考場"},{"start":11151.18,"end":11153.18,"text":"如果說他有建築物受損"},{"start":11153.18,"end":11155.18,"text":"或是有積水的情況"},{"start":11155.18,"end":11157.18,"text":"也許在星期一他還"},{"start":11157.18,"end":11159.18,"text":"沒有把考場恢復好"},{"start":11159.18,"end":11161.18,"text":"那颱風過後其實我們中南部"},{"start":11161.18,"end":11163.18,"text":"經常有所謂的紅颱風也就是"},{"start":11163.18,"end":11165.18,"text":"有西南氣流這個"},{"start":11165.18,"end":11167.18,"text":"造成了這個豪大雨的狀況"},{"start":11167.18,"end":11169.18,"text":"那還有偏遠地區"},{"start":11169.18,"end":11171.18,"text":"他們可能在這個時候"},{"start":11171.18,"end":11173.18,"text":"他們的交通可能還沒有恢復"},{"start":11173.18,"end":11175.18,"text":"那大考中心"},{"start":11175.18,"end":11177.18,"text":"當初在做這個延期的決定的時候"},{"start":11177.18,"end":11179.18,"text":"有沒有去考慮到這些狀況"},{"start":11180.84,"end":11182.84,"text":"謝謝委員其實委員所關心的"},{"start":11182.84,"end":11184.84,"text":"大考中心"},{"start":11184.84,"end":11186.84,"text":"事實上我必須要"},{"start":11186.84,"end":11188.84,"text":"為他們說他們"},{"start":11188.84,"end":11190.84,"text":"大考中心或者這個召聯會"},{"start":11190.84,"end":11192.84,"text":"事實上都有納進考慮"},{"start":11192.84,"end":11194.84,"text":"委員剛才所說的譬如說"},{"start":11194.84,"end":11196.84,"text":"他不一定是星期六日才出來"},{"start":11196.84,"end":11198.84,"text":"他可能因為我們"},{"start":11198.84,"end":11200.84,"text":"星期四等7月"},{"start":11200.84,"end":11202.84,"text":"7月8號的時候是星期四"},{"start":11202.84,"end":11204.84,"text":"這時候一宣布的時候"},{"start":11204.84,"end":11206.84,"text":"有一些考慮到"},{"start":11206.27,"end":11208.27,"text":"有的可能7月9號的時候就出來了"},{"start":11208.27,"end":11210.27,"text":"因為像我昨天"},{"start":11210.27,"end":11212.27,"text":"還特別在高雄兩個考區"},{"start":11212.27,"end":11214.27,"text":"我都特別走了一趟"},{"start":11214.27,"end":11216.27,"text":"還有我們"},{"start":11216.27,"end":11218.27,"text":"這個諸次長也在台北"},{"start":11218.27,"end":11220.27,"text":"地區我們也看到地方"},{"start":11220.27,"end":11222.27,"text":"政府縣市首長也有去"},{"start":11222.27,"end":11224.27,"text":"關心考區就是說我們昨天"},{"start":11224.27,"end":11226.27,"text":"下午到考生下午"},{"start":11226.27,"end":11228.27,"text":"4點要能夠看考場"},{"start":11228.27,"end":11230.27,"text":"我們確定所有的考場"},{"start":11230.27,"end":11232.27,"text":"考區全部都已經"},{"start":11232.27,"end":11234.27,"text":"準備完畢委員所"},{"start":11234.27,"end":11236.27,"text":"關心的那些在包含"},{"start":11236.27,"end":11238.27,"text":"在昨天還有"},{"start":11238.27,"end":11240.27,"text":"一些山區的這些"},{"start":11240.27,"end":11242.27,"text":"這一個停止上班"},{"start":11242.27,"end":11244.27,"text":"上課的我們都考區"},{"start":11244.27,"end":11246.27,"text":"都足以打電話像"},{"start":11246.27,"end":11248.27,"text":"以高雄六龜他是"},{"start":11248.27,"end":11250.27,"text":"停止上班上課也是"},{"start":11250.27,"end":11252.27,"text":"三位我們全部都"},{"start":11252.27,"end":11254.27,"text":"打過電話只有已經"},{"start":11254.27,"end":11256.27,"text":"全部到市區來準備要"},{"start":11256.27,"end":11258.27,"text":"注視準備要考試"},{"start":11258.27,"end":11260.27,"text":"只有一個在路上所以"},{"start":11260.27,"end":11262.27,"text":"感謝委員的關心在這個部分"},{"start":11262.27,"end":11264.27,"text":"招聯會事實上在過去"},{"start":11264.27,"end":11266.27,"text":"也有處理過這個延後考試"},{"start":11266.27,"end":11268.27,"text":"所以在整個事務"},{"start":11268.27,"end":11270.27,"text":"跟所有的準備"},{"start":11270.27,"end":11272.27,"text":"我想他們是相當程度的一個"},{"start":11272.27,"end":11274.27,"text":"非常的熟悉"},{"start":11274.27,"end":11276.27,"text":"也能夠掌握"},{"start":11276.27,"end":11278.27,"text":"利用這個機會要特別感謝"},{"start":11278.27,"end":11280.27,"text":"全國因應現在"},{"start":11280.27,"end":11282.27,"text":"這兩天考試的所有的"},{"start":11282.27,"end":11284.27,"text":"事務工作人員考區"},{"start":11284.27,"end":11286.27,"text":"所有的這些"},{"start":11286.27,"end":11288.27,"text":"夥伴也謝謝他們"},{"start":11288.27,"end":11290.27,"text":"因為能夠考量"},{"start":11290.27,"end":11292.27,"text":"這個氣候的關係"},{"start":11292.27,"end":11294.27,"text":"包含考生"},{"start":11294.27,"end":11296.27,"text":"我們在網路上也看到考生"},{"start":11296.27,"end":11298.27,"text":"也覺得無奈因為甚至有的"},{"start":11298.27,"end":11300.27,"text":"要已經規劃這兩天就要出國"},{"start":11300.27,"end":11302.27,"text":"那他們也"},{"start":11302.27,"end":11304.27,"text":"可以理解因為氣候上的關係"},{"start":11304.27,"end":11306.27,"text":"還是考試為重了"},{"start":11306.27,"end":11308.27,"text":"謝謝部長您的說明"},{"start":11308.27,"end":11310.27,"text":"這個部分我是新華松教育部跟大考中心"},{"start":11310.27,"end":11312.27,"text":"我們就這一次的這個"},{"start":11312.27,"end":11314.27,"text":"因為颱風遇到颱風"},{"start":11314.27,"end":11316.27,"text":"氣候的影響來延期"},{"start":11316.27,"end":11318.27,"text":"考試的這個整個狀況"},{"start":11318.27,"end":11320.27,"text":"我們也會來做一個參考"},{"start":11320.27,"end":11322.27,"text":"來研擬就是說"},{"start":11322.27,"end":11324.27,"text":"我們是不是明確的來"},{"start":11324.27,"end":11326.27,"text":"訂定一個延期的辦法"},{"start":11326.27,"end":11328.27,"text":"來供考生來參考"},{"start":11328.27,"end":11330.27,"text":"譬如說我們在考試前多久"},{"start":11330.27,"end":11332.27,"text":"如果有颱風來襲"},{"start":11332.27,"end":11334.27,"text":"那考試我們就會順延多久"},{"start":11334.27,"end":11336.27,"text":"我們訂一個標準出來"},{"start":11336.27,"end":11338.27,"text":"讓學生比較有能夠掌握"},{"start":11338.27,"end":11340.27,"text":"那學生家長跟老師也比較不會焦慮"},{"start":11340.27,"end":11342.27,"text":"他們可以提早因應"},{"start":11342.27,"end":11344.27,"text":"所以我這邊有建議就是說"},{"start":11344.27,"end":11346.27,"text":"我們能不能夠明確的規範"},{"start":11346.27,"end":11348.27,"text":"我們可以說有等級的颱風"},{"start":11348.27,"end":11350.27,"text":"或是說雨量"},{"start":11350.27,"end":11352.27,"text":"那我們來做一個分級的機制"},{"start":11352.27,"end":11354.27,"text":"再來就是如果說"},{"start":11354.27,"end":11356.27,"text":"有這個考場可能有"},{"start":11356.27,"end":11358.27,"text":"會遇到我剛剛講的建築物"},{"start":11358.27,"end":11360.27,"text":"有一些損害或者是淹水的部分"},{"start":11360.27,"end":11362.27,"text":"我們應該考量"},{"start":11362.27,"end":11364.27,"text":"讓考場有時間"},{"start":11364.27,"end":11366.27,"text":"有這個彈性來恢復考場的安全"},{"start":11366.27,"end":11368.27,"text":"那加上說"},{"start":11368.27,"end":11370.27,"text":"我們南部有時候會遇到這樣的狀況"},{"start":11370.27,"end":11372.27,"text":"其實這次的八威颱風"},{"start":11372.27,"end":11374.27,"text":"其實剛開始我們覺得它會很嚴重"},{"start":11374.27,"end":11376.27,"text":"所以我們就要鎖性"},{"start":11376.27,"end":11378.27,"text":"鎖性其實雖然有淹水的地方"},{"start":11378.27,"end":11380.27,"text":"有些攤販的地方"},{"start":11380.27,"end":11382.27,"text":"但是沒有像之前幾次的颱風"},{"start":11382.27,"end":11384.27,"text":"造成那麼大的損傷"},{"start":11384.27,"end":11386.27,"text":"所以這次的考生算是說"},{"start":11386.27,"end":11388.27,"text":"如果我們這麼短的時間延期"},{"start":11388.27,"end":11390.27,"text":"也是讓他們可以順利的完成考試"},{"start":11390.27,"end":11392.27,"text":"但是會希望說針對不同的地理特性"},{"start":11392.27,"end":11394.27,"text":"我們是不是在"},{"start":11394.27,"end":11396.27,"text":"這個延後考試的時間考量上"},{"start":11396.27,"end":11398.27,"text":"也有一個機制"},{"start":11398.27,"end":11400.27,"text":"來參考"},{"start":11400.27,"end":11402.27,"text":"那加上剛剛部長您說"},{"start":11402.27,"end":11404.27,"text":"就只有一位考生"},{"start":11404.27,"end":11406.27,"text":"就是因為這個交通的狀況"},{"start":11406.27,"end":11408.27,"text":"有點狀況"},{"start":11408.27,"end":11410.27,"text":"那也希望說我們這個偏遠的考生的權益保障"},{"start":11410.27,"end":11412.27,"text":"我們有思考到"},{"start":11412.27,"end":11414.27,"text":"剛才您說的"},{"start":11414.27,"end":11416.27,"text":"因為我們有提供住宿跟交通的補助"},{"start":11416.27,"end":11418.27,"text":"但是如果說"},{"start":11418.27,"end":11420.27,"text":"有的是比較特殊的"},{"start":11420.27,"end":11422.27,"text":"是不是有一些專案可以來協助這些偏遠地區的考生"},{"start":11422.27,"end":11424.27,"text":"是我想謝謝委員"},{"start":11424.27,"end":11426.27,"text":"再次提醒"},{"start":11426.27,"end":11428.27,"text":"確實整個昭聯會大考中心"},{"start":11428.27,"end":11430.27,"text":"委員所提的這些都是他們在"},{"start":11430.27,"end":11432.27,"text":"因應這個所謂的"},{"start":11432.27,"end":11434.27,"text":"自然災害"},{"start":11434.27,"end":11436.27,"text":"我這樣提議是希望說"},{"start":11436.27,"end":11438.27,"text":"以後可以更明確"},{"start":11438.27,"end":11440.27,"text":"我們事先訂出一個SOP"},{"start":11440.27,"end":11442.27,"text":"讓考生家長老師"},{"start":11442.27,"end":11444.27,"text":"在提前知道說可能會遇到颱風的時候"},{"start":11444.27,"end":11446.27,"text":"我們就先領個底子說"},{"start":11446.27,"end":11448.27,"text":"大概會做一個怎樣的"},{"start":11448.27,"end":11450.27,"text":"延期的規劃"},{"start":11450.27,"end":11452.27,"text":"這個我們可以思考"},{"start":11452.27,"end":11454.27,"text":"好那如果有相關的進度"},{"start":11454.27,"end":11456.27,"text":"是不是一份報告給我辦公室"},{"start":11456.27,"end":11458.27,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11458.27,"end":11460.27,"text":"接下來我想請教部長"},{"start":11460.27,"end":11462.27,"text":"近期這個問題有品的事件"},{"start":11462.27,"end":11464.27,"text":"引發社會的關切"},{"start":11464.27,"end":11466.27,"text":"跟家長對於校園食品安全的這個"},{"start":11466.27,"end":11468.27,"text":"高度的關切"},{"start":11468.27,"end":11470.27,"text":"那首先對學校"},{"start":11470.27,"end":11472.27,"text":"校園一樣午餐有使用到問題有品"},{"start":11472.27,"end":11474.27,"text":"本席真的是覺得非常震驚"},{"start":11474.27,"end":11476.27,"text":"也覺得是遺憾的"},{"start":11476.27,"end":11478.27,"text":"但是在這個時候我還是要肯定"},{"start":11478.27,"end":11480.27,"text":"我們校園食材登錄平台的功能"},{"start":11480.27,"end":11482.27,"text":"就是因為有登錄"},{"start":11482.27,"end":11484.27,"text":"我們校園公餐的訊息才能夠"},{"start":11484.27,"end":11486.27,"text":"很即時的提供這個追蹤查詢"},{"start":11486.27,"end":11488.27,"text":"那教育部也很快的"},{"start":11488.27,"end":11490.27,"text":"有統計出來說"},{"start":11490.27,"end":11492.27,"text":"總共有20個縣市的623所的學校"},{"start":11492.27,"end":11494.27,"text":"以及258所的幼兒園"},{"start":11494.27,"end":11496.27,"text":"有使用到或是疑似使用到問題有品"},{"start":11496.27,"end":11498.27,"text":"當然有疑慮"},{"start":11498.27,"end":11500.27,"text":"有問題我們就趕快下架及停用"},{"start":11500.27,"end":11502.27,"text":"但是後續我們要如何"},{"start":11502.27,"end":11504.27,"text":"來守護校園的食安"},{"start":11504.27,"end":11506.27,"text":"而且現在雖然是暑假"},{"start":11506.27,"end":11508.27,"text":"但是公幼已經開始"},{"start":11508.27,"end":11510.27,"text":"暑期的家托服務"},{"start":11510.27,"end":11512.27,"text":"表示說也是開始"},{"start":11512.27,"end":11514.27,"text":"公餐的"},{"start":11514.27,"end":11516.27,"text":"未來的機制是很重要"},{"start":11516.27,"end":11518.27,"text":"那首先我在這邊要建議說"},{"start":11518.27,"end":11520.27,"text":"為了降低"},{"start":11520.27,"end":11522.27,"text":"單一有品長期集中使用"},{"start":11522.27,"end":11524.27,"text":"帶來的潛在風險"},{"start":11524.27,"end":11526.27,"text":"是建議教育部這邊能夠建立"},{"start":11526.27,"end":11528.27,"text":"彈性採購的機制"},{"start":11528.27,"end":11530.27,"text":"我們跟地方業者"},{"start":11530.27,"end":11532.27,"text":"政府及業者的研議"},{"start":11532.27,"end":11534.27,"text":"我們是不是定期"},{"start":11534.27,"end":11536.27,"text":"那有時三個月還是說"},{"start":11536.27,"end":11538.27,"text":"至少三個月或半年"},{"start":11538.27,"end":11540.27,"text":"我們更換營養午餐"},{"start":11540.27,"end":11542.27,"text":"擁有種類的可行性"},{"start":11542.27,"end":11544.27,"text":"或定期的輪替"},{"start":11544.27,"end":11546.27,"text":"比較有效的來分散"},{"start":11546.27,"end":11548.27,"text":"降低食安風險"},{"start":11548.27,"end":11550.27,"text":"不要固定用同一種油"},{"start":11550.27,"end":11552.27,"text":"同一種油品"},{"start":11552.27,"end":11554.27,"text":"其實針對近期引發的"},{"start":11554.27,"end":11556.27,"text":"有爭議的進口"},{"start":11556.27,"end":11558.27,"text":"巴西的大豆"},{"start":11558.27,"end":11560.27,"text":"在相關主管機關的新規範出爐"},{"start":11560.27,"end":11562.27,"text":"一律沒有完全消除之前"},{"start":11562.27,"end":11564.27,"text":"是建議校園營養午餐"},{"start":11564.27,"end":11566.27,"text":"應該採取預防性的措施"},{"start":11566.27,"end":11568.27,"text":"我們在過渡期間"},{"start":11568.27,"end":11570.27,"text":"避免使用大豆油"},{"start":11570.27,"end":11572.27,"text":"改採用其他有國家認證"},{"start":11572.27,"end":11574.27,"text":"來源明確"},{"start":11574.27,"end":11576.27,"text":"而且沒有爭議的烹調油品"},{"start":11576.27,"end":11578.27,"text":"用比較高的規格"},{"start":11578.27,"end":11580.27,"text":"我們來守護校園的食安"},{"start":11580.27,"end":11582.27,"text":"大臣同意"},{"start":11583.63,"end":11585.63,"text":"還是署長你要回答"},{"start":11587.55,"end":11589.55,"text":"謝謝委員的指正"},{"start":11589.55,"end":11591.55,"text":"彈性用油"},{"start":11591.55,"end":11593.55,"text":"當然我們可以跟這個地方來討論"},{"start":11593.55,"end":11595.55,"text":"就是說"},{"start":11595.55,"end":11597.55,"text":"降低它可能"},{"start":11597.55,"end":11599.55,"text":"單一的一些風險"},{"start":11599.55,"end":11601.55,"text":"只要長期使用"},{"start":11601.55,"end":11603.55,"text":"它可能累積的麻煩"},{"start":11603.55,"end":11605.55,"text":"傷害可能很大"},{"start":11605.55,"end":11607.55,"text":"至於這個"},{"start":11607.55,"end":11609.55,"text":"它是安全的"},{"start":11609.55,"end":11611.55,"text":"如果我們是不是要全面禁用"},{"start":11611.55,"end":11613.55,"text":"我想這個可能"},{"start":11613.55,"end":11615.55,"text":"還得要斟酌"},{"start":11615.55,"end":11617.55,"text":"要確保的是"},{"start":11617.62,"end":11619.62,"text":"這個違法規定的"},{"start":11619.62,"end":11621.62,"text":"它不應該在學校園裡面出現"},{"start":11621.62,"end":11623.62,"text":"但是合法的廠商"},{"start":11623.62,"end":11625.62,"text":"我們好像"},{"start":11625.62,"end":11627.62,"text":"這個部分可能我們還是"},{"start":11627.62,"end":11629.62,"text":"要相對要慎重"},{"start":11629.62,"end":11631.62,"text":"要慎重"},{"start":11631.62,"end":11633.62,"text":"因為是因為現在的這個期間"},{"start":11633.62,"end":11635.62,"text":"其實家長對於這個食安的疑慮"},{"start":11635.62,"end":11637.62,"text":"會希望說"},{"start":11637.62,"end":11639.62,"text":"是不是我們有更積極"},{"start":11639.62,"end":11641.62,"text":"更確實的一些措施"},{"start":11641.62,"end":11643.62,"text":"我相信在地方政府"},{"start":11643.62,"end":11645.62,"text":"跟學校的一個態度"},{"start":11645.62,"end":11647.62,"text":"他們一定是"},{"start":11647.62,"end":11649.62,"text":"跟委員所提的是一樣的"},{"start":11649.62,"end":11651.62,"text":"一定會用更謹慎的態度"},{"start":11651.62,"end":11653.62,"text":"來看待這個油品的使用"},{"start":11653.62,"end":11655.62,"text":"剛才委員有提的"},{"start":11655.62,"end":11657.62,"text":"已經有產生問題的"},{"start":11657.62,"end":11659.62,"text":"在餘力沒有消除前"},{"start":11659.62,"end":11661.62,"text":"學校一定是不可能"},{"start":11661.62,"end":11663.62,"text":"再讓它進來的"},{"start":11663.62,"end":11665.62,"text":"謝謝部長 我還是要再提醒"},{"start":11665.62,"end":11667.62,"text":"目前很多公立的幼兒園已經展開"},{"start":11667.62,"end":11669.62,"text":"暑期的家托服務"},{"start":11669.62,"end":11671.62,"text":"而且是開始供餐的"},{"start":11671.62,"end":11673.62,"text":"但是校園食材登錄平台"},{"start":11673.62,"end":11677.62,"text":"好像沒有把暑期飲食納入範疇"},{"start":11677.62,"end":11679.62,"text":"所以這個部分是不是請教育部這邊清查"},{"start":11679.62,"end":11681.62,"text":"如果這個部分我們馬上來"},{"start":11681.62,"end":11683.62,"text":"這個是在網路上"},{"start":11683.62,"end":11685.62,"text":"我們馬上可以來提醒地方"},{"start":11685.62,"end":11687.62,"text":"等於說延拖"},{"start":11687.62,"end":11689.62,"text":"這個暑假延拖了"},{"start":11689.62,"end":11691.62,"text":"也應該要按照規定來講"},{"start":11691.62,"end":11693.62,"text":"所以說希望把整個食安的控管做得更周延"},{"start":11693.62,"end":11695.62,"text":"好 那接下來"},{"start":11695.62,"end":11697.62,"text":"我想請教一下"},{"start":11697.62,"end":11699.62,"text":"部長 今年我們的校園"},{"start":11699.62,"end":11701.62,"text":"暴力衝突案件"},{"start":11701.62,"end":11703.62,"text":"累計超過了三萬件"},{"start":11703.62,"end":11705.62,"text":"與此同時學生的自傷通報案件"},{"start":11705.62,"end":11707.62,"text":"也是創下歷史新高"},{"start":11707.62,"end":11709.62,"text":"這些很沉重的數據"},{"start":11709.62,"end":11711.62,"text":"其實都在跟我們發出警訊"},{"start":11711.62,"end":11713.62,"text":"我們現在來我們的孩子"},{"start":11713.62,"end":11715.62,"text":"承受著前所未有的心靈的壓力"},{"start":11715.62,"end":11717.62,"text":"所以校園的輔導需求"},{"start":11717.62,"end":11719.62,"text":"其實是迫在眉睫"},{"start":11719.62,"end":11721.62,"text":"但是當孩子發出求救訊號的時候"},{"start":11721.62,"end":11725.62,"text":"我們校園的第一道防線專門輔導教師"},{"start":11725.62,"end":11727.62,"text":"是面臨著人力吃緊"},{"start":11727.62,"end":11729.62,"text":"以及輔導量能荒"},{"start":11732.17,"end":11734.17,"text":"根據基層的反應"},{"start":11734.17,"end":11736.17,"text":"目前的專輔教師"},{"start":11736.17,"end":11738.17,"text":"他不僅是要面對日益龐大解複雜"},{"start":11738.17,"end":11740.17,"text":"這是個案量"},{"start":11740.17,"end":11742.17,"text":"還常常被指派去處理繁重的非核心行政事務"},{"start":11742.17,"end":11744.17,"text":"像是各種的正力宣導成果"},{"start":11744.17,"end":11746.17,"text":"或是跟自傷無關的跨局處的評鑑"},{"start":11746.17,"end":11748.17,"text":"或是繁瑣的行政報表"},{"start":11748.17,"end":11750.17,"text":"當這些繁雜的雜物"},{"start":11750.17,"end":11752.17,"text":"奪走老師大部分的時間跟精力"},{"start":11752.17,"end":11754.17,"text":"他們還有多少時間"},{"start":11754.17,"end":11756.17,"text":"可以好好的坐下來"},{"start":11756.17,"end":11758.17,"text":"傾聽孩子們說話"},{"start":11758.17,"end":11760.17,"text":"其實我們都知道說"},{"start":11760.17,"end":11762.17,"text":"孩子是我們國家的未來"},{"start":11762.17,"end":11764.17,"text":"我們不希望在校園裡面的心靈扶手"},{"start":11764.17,"end":11766.17,"text":"自己都先過老而倒了"},{"start":11766.17,"end":11768.17,"text":"所以在這邊"},{"start":11768.17,"end":11770.17,"text":"我要很誠懇的建議請教育部"},{"start":11770.17,"end":11772.17,"text":"我們要積極的研議推動"},{"start":11772.17,"end":11774.17,"text":"專輔教師行政減量"},{"start":11774.17,"end":11776.17,"text":"並且重新檢視明確規範他的工作職長"},{"start":11776.17,"end":11778.17,"text":"務必要精簡整備那些非輔導專業的行政負擔"},{"start":11778.17,"end":11780.17,"text":"那種專業回歸專業"},{"start":11780.17,"end":11782.17,"text":"因為只有降低專輔教師"},{"start":11782.17,"end":11784.17,"text":"這些額外的工作量"},{"start":11784.17,"end":11786.17,"text":"那些學生的學生"},{"start":11786.17,"end":11788.17,"text":"那些學生的學生"},{"start":11788.17,"end":11790.17,"text":"這些學生的教師"},{"start":11790.17,"end":11792.17,"text":"這些額外的工作量才可以讓他們很專心的"},{"start":11792.17,"end":11794.17,"text":"從事心理輔導"},{"start":11794.17,"end":11796.17,"text":"來能夠真正的接觸每一個"},{"start":11796.17,"end":11798.17,"text":"需要被接觸的孩子"},{"start":11798.17,"end":11800.17,"text":"部長請說明"},{"start":11800.17,"end":11802.17,"text":"是的我想陳務委員所提的"},{"start":11802.17,"end":11804.17,"text":"我們去年大院通過的學生輔導法"},{"start":11804.17,"end":11806.17,"text":"本來就是希望有更多的專業"},{"start":11806.17,"end":11808.17,"text":"的心理輔導老師能夠"},{"start":11808.17,"end":11810.17,"text":"來協助我們各階段教育的"},{"start":11810.17,"end":11812.17,"text":"這些學生"},{"start":11812.17,"end":11814.17,"text":"那我想讓他能夠"},{"start":11814.17,"end":11816.17,"text":"發揮專業減少一些"},{"start":11816.53,"end":11818.53,"text":"不相干的行政工作"},{"start":11818.53,"end":11820.53,"text":"我們要協助他們去排除不是他們"},{"start":11820.53,"end":11822.53,"text":"專業以外的工作落在他們身上"},{"start":11824.22,"end":11826.22,"text":"所以這個我們教育部這邊可以為他們"},{"start":11826.22,"end":11828.22,"text":"是我想這個"},{"start":11828.22,"end":11830.22,"text":"本來就是當時學生輔導法設置的"},{"start":11830.22,"end":11832.22,"text":"一個目的"},{"start":11832.22,"end":11834.22,"text":"我想我們也會跟地方來提醒"},{"start":11834.22,"end":11836.22,"text":"學校一定要讓專業的"},{"start":11836.22,"end":11838.22,"text":"心理輔導老師能夠"},{"start":11838.22,"end":11840.22,"text":"請教育部這邊來協助來了解"},{"start":11840.22,"end":11842.22,"text":"現在對於這些專輔教師"},{"start":11842.22,"end":11844.22,"text":"他們本身的工作"},{"start":11844.22,"end":11846.22,"text":"他們所背負的相關的"},{"start":11846.22,"end":11848.22,"text":"如果不屬於自己的"},{"start":11848.22,"end":11850.22,"text":"專業範疇的是不是可以"},{"start":11850.22,"end":11852.22,"text":"協助他們來排除"},{"start":11852.22,"end":11854.22,"text":"我們跟地方"},{"start":11854.22,"end":11856.22,"text":"假設我們全面來了解"},{"start":11856.22,"end":11858.22,"text":"到底現在心無老實他要兼辦"},{"start":11858.22,"end":11860.22,"text":"什麼樣的行政工作"},{"start":11860.22,"end":11862.22,"text":"那我們再來跟地方看怎麼樣來協助"},{"start":11862.22,"end":11864.22,"text":"讓他回到專業的"},{"start":11864.22,"end":11866.22,"text":"本質"},{"start":11866.22,"end":11868.22,"text":"那請教育部這邊把你們所了解"},{"start":11868.22,"end":11870.22,"text":"目前的狀況跟你們預計"},{"start":11870.22,"end":11872.22,"text":"如何來協助"},{"start":11872.22,"end":11874.22,"text":"也一份報告給我辦公室好嗎"},{"start":11874.37,"end":11876.37,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":11879.1,"end":11881.1,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":11882,"end":11886,"text":"接下來請郭育勤委員進行巡達"},{"start":11896.75,"end":11898.75,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":11899.21,"end":11901.21,"text":"好有請部長"},{"start":11900.8,"end":11902.8,"text":"有請鄭部長"},{"start":11908.53,"end":11910.53,"text":"部長早"},{"start":11910.53,"end":11912.53,"text":"我想最近中年"},{"start":11914.1,"end":11916.1,"text":"有指的一個世界上很多家長非常擔心"},{"start":11916.1,"end":11918.1,"text":"不過我們先來了解這個"},{"start":11918.1,"end":11920.1,"text":"整個所有的這個事件"},{"start":11920.1,"end":11922.1,"text":"時間軸喔"},{"start":11922.1,"end":11924.1,"text":"從4月開始這個中年的"},{"start":11924.1,"end":11926.1,"text":"有品出廠到5月13號"},{"start":11926.1,"end":11928.1,"text":"南橋自行檢出"},{"start":11928.1,"end":11930.1,"text":"那麼這個超標"},{"start":11930.1,"end":11932.1,"text":"但沒有依法通報"},{"start":11932.1,"end":11934.1,"text":"那他只有通知中聯"},{"start":11934.1,"end":11936.1,"text":"中聯又自行復檢但是他們"},{"start":11936.1,"end":11938.1,"text":"開會仍然還是拖延"},{"start":11938.1,"end":11940.1,"text":"那這段時間其實都還"},{"start":11940.1,"end":11942.1,"text":"沒有曝光到了6月15號"},{"start":11942.1,"end":11944.1,"text":"已經被地方衛生局"},{"start":11944.1,"end":11946.1,"text":"給查獲"},{"start":11946.1,"end":11948.1,"text":"那中聯跟這個福壽還有福茂"},{"start":11948.1,"end":11950.1,"text":"台中還有泰山"},{"start":11950.1,"end":11952.1,"text":"在6月15號開會"},{"start":11952.1,"end":11954.1,"text":"這表示他們其實早已知情"},{"start":11954.1,"end":11956.1,"text":"到最後6月30號才正式通報"},{"start":11956.1,"end":11958.1,"text":"這整整延誤的時間"},{"start":11958.1,"end":11960.1,"text":"大概是48天"},{"start":11960.1,"end":11962.1,"text":"48天"},{"start":11962.1,"end":11964.1,"text":"好那雖然現在是正年暑假"},{"start":11964.1,"end":11966.1,"text":"但是其實"},{"start":11966.1,"end":11968.1,"text":"有更多的家長其實是擔心"},{"start":11968.1,"end":11970.1,"text":"在4月一直到"},{"start":11970.1,"end":11972.1,"text":"6月底這段時間"},{"start":11972.1,"end":11974.1,"text":"我的孩子到底有沒有吃進"},{"start":11974.1,"end":11976.1,"text":"這些有問題的一些"},{"start":11976.1,"end":11978.1,"text":"有品"},{"start":11978.1,"end":11980.1,"text":"當然這個部分交易部最近的"},{"start":11980.1,"end":11982.1,"text":"清查最新的資料"},{"start":11982.1,"end":11984.1,"text":"那全國已經有861所"},{"start":11984.1,"end":11986.1,"text":"的學校"},{"start":11986.1,"end":11988.1,"text":"還有334所的這個"},{"start":11988.1,"end":11990.1,"text":"肉園也曾經用到了"},{"start":11990.1,"end":11992.1,"text":"這個問題的有品"},{"start":11992.1,"end":11994.1,"text":"那我想交易部這部分第一時間"},{"start":11994.1,"end":11996.1,"text":"已經有要求要預防性的"},{"start":11996.1,"end":11998.1,"text":"一個下架那當然對於"},{"start":11998.1,"end":12000.1,"text":"這個迅速的應變"},{"start":12000.1,"end":12002.1,"text":"還是要給予肯定"},{"start":12002.1,"end":12004.1,"text":"但我現在想要談的是"},{"start":12004.53,"end":12006.53,"text":"交易部我們現在要做的是"},{"start":12006.53,"end":12008.53,"text":"事件發生之後的處理"},{"start":12008.53,"end":12010.53,"text":"還是事件發生"},{"start":12010.53,"end":12012.53,"text":"前的預防我想發生"},{"start":12012.53,"end":12014.53,"text":"前的預防可能要重於"},{"start":12014.53,"end":12016.53,"text":"事件發生之後的一個處理"},{"start":12016.53,"end":12018.53,"text":"那如果每一次都是食藥署"},{"start":12018.53,"end":12020.53,"text":"公佈名單然後我們交易部"},{"start":12020.53,"end":12022.53,"text":"再開始比對那這代表"},{"start":12022.53,"end":12024.53,"text":"我們的孩子可能早就已經"},{"start":12024.53,"end":12026.53,"text":"吃下肚了那我想在這邊我"},{"start":12026.53,"end":12028.53,"text":"請教一下部長目前這個食藥署"},{"start":12028.53,"end":12030.53,"text":"公佈這些問題批號"},{"start":12030.53,"end":12032.53,"text":"之後那交易部有沒有透過"},{"start":12032.53,"end":12034.53,"text":"地方政府學校在利用所謂的"},{"start":12034.53,"end":12036.53,"text":"這個校園食材登錄的平台"},{"start":12036.53,"end":12038.53,"text":"一比一比的來做"},{"start":12038.53,"end":12040.53,"text":"比對那是已經做到"},{"start":12040.53,"end":12042.53,"text":"系統化的比對嗎"},{"start":12042.53,"end":12044.53,"text":"還是目前還在人工的"},{"start":12044.53,"end":12046.53,"text":"比對因為只要是人工的"},{"start":12046.53,"end":12048.53,"text":"比對就可能會發現"},{"start":12048.53,"end":12050.53,"text":"所謂的時間差"},{"start":12050.53,"end":12052.53,"text":"因為今天可能是有品明天"},{"start":12052.53,"end":12054.53,"text":"可能是牛奶後天可能是"},{"start":12054.53,"end":12056.53,"text":"蛋製品或者是農藥"},{"start":12056.53,"end":12058.53,"text":"殘留那這個部分我們是"},{"start":12058.53,"end":12060.53,"text":"每一次都要重新的人工清查"},{"start":12060.53,"end":12062.53,"text":"教務認為這樣子的效率足夠嗎"},{"start":12064.36,"end":12066.36,"text":"請教"},{"start":12065.54,"end":12067.54,"text":"我想這個登錄平台本來就是"},{"start":12067.54,"end":12069.54,"text":"希望能夠掌握所有的"},{"start":12069.54,"end":12071.54,"text":"信息每天的學生"},{"start":12071.54,"end":12073.54,"text":"的營養午餐的一個食材"},{"start":12073.54,"end":12075.54,"text":"所以我們在7月1號"},{"start":12075.54,"end":12077.54,"text":"一有這樣一個消息的時候馬上能夠"},{"start":12077.54,"end":12081.54,"text":"從這個登錄平台裡面就看到"},{"start":12081.54,"end":12083.54,"text":"有1380所學校"},{"start":12083.54,"end":12085.54,"text":"他是用這個中年所"},{"start":12087.12,"end":12091.12,"text":"用的這個三個廠商"},{"start":12091.12,"end":12095.12,"text":"所以我們才進一步請這個地方教育局處"},{"start":12095.88,"end":12099.88,"text":"針對平台當中的每一品"},{"start":12099.88,"end":12101.88,"text":"基本上他打的一些已經都說了"},{"start":12101.88,"end":12103.88,"text":"就能夠直接"},{"start":12103.88,"end":12105.88,"text":"所以我們已經有做到系統自動的"},{"start":12105.88,"end":12107.88,"text":"一個比對了嗎"},{"start":12107.88,"end":12109.88,"text":"這是我的問題有做到系統嗎"},{"start":12109.88,"end":12111.88,"text":"目前還是用人工"},{"start":12111.35,"end":12113.35,"text":"還是人工清查"},{"start":12127.32,"end":12129.32,"text":"這個部分是隨機嗎"},{"start":12129.54,"end":12131.54,"text":"隨機嗎"},{"start":12131.54,"end":12133.54,"text":"這個是全面不是隨機"},{"start":12133.54,"end":12135.54,"text":"那我再問一下剛剛署長講的"},{"start":12135.54,"end":12137.54,"text":"因為現在我們有很多的學校的午餐"},{"start":12137.54,"end":12139.54,"text":"其實是供應商自行登錄"},{"start":12139.54,"end":12141.54,"text":"是供應商自行登錄"},{"start":12141.54,"end":12143.54,"text":"兩種如果是學校自辦的話"},{"start":12143.54,"end":12145.54,"text":"學校老師或相關人員"},{"start":12145.54,"end":12147.54,"text":"如果是外定團散"},{"start":12147.54,"end":12149.54,"text":"或是公辦民營"},{"start":12149.54,"end":12151.54,"text":"那個是委託的"},{"start":12152.46,"end":12154.46,"text":"那我問一下教育部這邊"},{"start":12154.46,"end":12156.46,"text":"我們有沒有要求要多久之內"},{"start":12156.46,"end":12158.46,"text":"一定要完成登錄"},{"start":12158.46,"end":12160.46,"text":"是一天一個小時幾個小時"},{"start":12160.46,"end":12162.46,"text":"還是一天還是三天"},{"start":12162.46,"end":12164.46,"text":"如果廠商延遲登錄的話"},{"start":12164.46,"end":12166.46,"text":"我們中央這邊有沒有辦法"},{"start":12166.46,"end":12168.46,"text":"在第一時間知道哪一些學校"},{"start":12168.46,"end":12170.46,"text":"可能用到了所謂的問題的產品"},{"start":12171.73,"end":12173.73,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":12173.73,"end":12175.73,"text":"登錄的時間是當日"},{"start":12175.73,"end":12177.73,"text":"如果延遲"},{"start":12177.73,"end":12179.73,"text":"我們有相關的爬蟲機制"},{"start":12179.73,"end":12181.73,"text":"會去抓到哪些學校"},{"start":12181.73,"end":12183.73,"text":"我們會去要求跟警示他"},{"start":12183.73,"end":12185.73,"text":"所以我們有一套爬蟲機制"},{"start":12185.73,"end":12187.73,"text":"會去做處理"},{"start":12187.73,"end":12189.73,"text":"包含縣市的中毒新聞"},{"start":12189.73,"end":12191.73,"text":"我們都全天候24小時"},{"start":12191.73,"end":12193.73,"text":"爬蟲都在抓"},{"start":12193.73,"end":12195.73,"text":"為什麼我要特別這樣子強調"},{"start":12195.73,"end":12197.73,"text":"這件事情喔"},{"start":12197.73,"end":12199.73,"text":"因為其實如果沒有這樣子的"},{"start":12199.73,"end":12201.73,"text":"即時去登錄"},{"start":12201.73,"end":12203.73,"text":"或者是我們沒有發現"},{"start":12203.73,"end":12205.73,"text":"他延遲登錄的一個問題"},{"start":12205.73,"end":12207.73,"text":"中間就可能會產生所謂的"},{"start":12207.73,"end":12209.73,"text":"空窗就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":12209.73,"end":12211.73,"text":"如果這個延遲的這個時間"},{"start":12211.73,"end":12213.73,"text":"這個空窗的時間我的孩子可能都"},{"start":12213.73,"end":12215.73,"text":"已經吃下肚了"},{"start":12215.73,"end":12217.73,"text":"這是我要點出的一個問題"},{"start":12217.73,"end":12219.73,"text":"那我再請問一下我們的教育部跟食藥署"},{"start":12219.73,"end":12221.73,"text":"還有農業部這邊有沒有建立"},{"start":12221.73,"end":12223.73,"text":"即時的串接"},{"start":12223.73,"end":12225.73,"text":"還是我們仍然是仰賴"},{"start":12225.73,"end":12227.73,"text":"所謂的不管是公文也好"},{"start":12227.73,"end":12229.73,"text":"沒有也好來人工的通知"},{"start":12229.73,"end":12231.73,"text":"如果今天比方說我舉例"},{"start":12231.73,"end":12233.73,"text":"如果今天我們的食藥署"},{"start":12233.73,"end":12235.73,"text":"他公佈了在凌晨的時候"},{"start":12235.73,"end":12237.73,"text":"是公佈了問題的批號"},{"start":12237.73,"end":12239.73,"text":"請問教育部這邊多久"},{"start":12239.73,"end":12241.73,"text":"可以直接通知學校"},{"start":12241.73,"end":12243.73,"text":"一個小時半天還是要一整天"},{"start":12244.77,"end":12246.77,"text":"以這次為例"},{"start":12246.77,"end":12248.77,"text":"大概我們半小時就可以撈出來"},{"start":12248.77,"end":12250.77,"text":"撈出來是一回事"},{"start":12250.77,"end":12252.77,"text":"通知學校有可能"},{"start":12252.77,"end":12254.77,"text":"這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":12254.77,"end":12256.77,"text":"又是另外一件事情"},{"start":12256.77,"end":12258.77,"text":"通知學校我們用各種管道"},{"start":12258.77,"end":12260.77,"text":"一下就可以"},{"start":12260.77,"end":12262.77,"text":"大概在半天之內"},{"start":12262.77,"end":12264.77,"text":"可以全國通知完畢"},{"start":12264.77,"end":12266.77,"text":"甚至可以更早"},{"start":12266.77,"end":12268.77,"text":"看他使用的"},{"start":12268.77,"end":12270.77,"text":"量或是品名"},{"start":12270.77,"end":12272.77,"text":"我為什麼要特別提"},{"start":12272.77,"end":12274.77,"text":"這件事情的重要性"},{"start":12274.77,"end":12276.77,"text":"第一因為這次的遊品的影響層面很廣"},{"start":12276.77,"end":12278.77,"text":"剛剛其實"},{"start":12278.77,"end":12280.77,"text":"有委員提到本來是從"},{"start":12280.77,"end":12282.77,"text":"六百多間學校其實現在"},{"start":12282.77,"end":12284.77,"text":"我們教育部已經更新到八百多間的學校了"},{"start":12284.77,"end":12286.77,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12286.77,"end":12288.77,"text":"所以這個學校的數量有可能還在增加當中"},{"start":12288.77,"end":12290.77,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":12290.77,"end":12292.77,"text":"是的 只要衛福部一公佈"},{"start":12292.77,"end":12294.77,"text":"原來譬如說兩百二十兩百三十二"},{"start":12294.77,"end":12296.77,"text":"後來到四百零一到四百四十"},{"start":12296.77,"end":12298.77,"text":"一公佈我們馬上就"},{"start":12298.77,"end":12300.77,"text":"用我們的系統馬上去抓取"},{"start":12300.77,"end":12302.77,"text":"所以我們可以找到現在我們看到的"},{"start":12302.77,"end":12304.77,"text":"應該是八百六十一間的學校"},{"start":12304.77,"end":12306.77,"text":"這個部分大概"},{"start":12306.77,"end":12308.77,"text":"經過了幾天"},{"start":12308.66,"end":12310.66,"text":"可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":12309.99,"end":12311.99,"text":"那個是在七月最後一次的"},{"start":12311.99,"end":12313.99,"text":"就是"},{"start":12313.99,"end":12315.99,"text":"上個禮拜颱風假之前我們收到的還是六百多"},{"start":12315.99,"end":12317.99,"text":"對對我們就才七"},{"start":12317.99,"end":12319.99,"text":"大概在七月十號這個報告"},{"start":12319.99,"end":12321.99,"text":"在撰寫的時候就是最後一次"},{"start":12321.99,"end":12323.99,"text":"四百四十的那個品名"},{"start":12323.99,"end":12325.99,"text":"為什麼我要特別提到"},{"start":12325.99,"end":12327.99,"text":"這件事情剛剛我已經說了"},{"start":12327.99,"end":12329.99,"text":"其實真的完全完成"},{"start":12329.99,"end":12331.99,"text":"所謂的這個校園食材登錄的平台"},{"start":12331.99,"end":12333.99,"text":"跟食藥署的"},{"start":12333.99,"end":12335.99,"text":"即時的通知的這個"},{"start":12335.99,"end":12337.99,"text":"串接這一點我們請教育部"},{"start":12337.99,"end":12339.99,"text":"一定要掌握一定要注意"},{"start":12339.99,"end":12341.99,"text":"第二個只要中央公告"},{"start":12341.99,"end":12343.99,"text":"的所謂的問題的批號我們的系統"},{"start":12343.99,"end":12345.99,"text":"一定要馬上就警示學校"},{"start":12345.99,"end":12347.99,"text":"那還好現在因為"},{"start":12347.99,"end":12349.99,"text":"在暑假的期間"},{"start":12349.99,"end":12351.99,"text":"再來第三但是剛剛其實秀寶委員"},{"start":12351.99,"end":12353.99,"text":"有特別提到了有些幼兒園其實他們"},{"start":12353.99,"end":12355.99,"text":"現在還在上課當中"},{"start":12355.99,"end":12357.99,"text":"所以這個部分也麻煩我們的"},{"start":12357.99,"end":12359.99,"text":"教育部這個部分一定要注意"},{"start":12359.99,"end":12361.99,"text":"再來我們要建立學校"},{"start":12361.99,"end":12363.99,"text":"校園高風險供應商的"},{"start":12363.99,"end":12365.99,"text":"預警的名單不是只有"},{"start":12365.99,"end":12367.99,"text":"出了事才停用這個部分我們"},{"start":12367.99,"end":12369.99,"text":"有沒有辦法可以建立即時的"},{"start":12369.99,"end":12371.99,"text":"管理風險的機制"},{"start":12372.17,"end":12374.17,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":12375.51,"end":12377.51,"text":"供應商的部分"},{"start":12405.51,"end":12407.51,"text":"現在在研議他就永遠不再被用了"},{"start":12407.51,"end":12409.51,"text":"好多久會出來"},{"start":12409.51,"end":12411.51,"text":"這個機制這個可能在衛福部"},{"start":12411.51,"end":12413.51,"text":"最新的一些機制之後"},{"start":12413.51,"end":12415.51,"text":"整體的源頭面處理完"},{"start":12415.51,"end":12417.51,"text":"之後目前已經在跟團善廠商"},{"start":12417.51,"end":12419.51,"text":"食材供應業者去研處"},{"start":12419.51,"end":12421.51,"text":"我們現在希望是"},{"start":12421.51,"end":12423.51,"text":"源頭面更要管控"},{"start":12423.51,"end":12425.51,"text":"的緊實的同時我們也有一種"},{"start":12425.51,"end":12427.51,"text":"保障的要求"},{"start":12427.51,"end":12429.51,"text":"就是他敢用他以後就"},{"start":12429.51,"end":12431.51,"text":"完全沒有機會在"},{"start":12431.51,"end":12433.51,"text":"台灣的學校裡面運用"},{"start":12433.51,"end":12435.51,"text":"大概什麼時候"},{"start":12435.51,"end":12437.51,"text":"這個可能我們再配合衛福部的整個檢討"},{"start":12437.51,"end":12439.51,"text":"一個月內"},{"start":12439.51,"end":12441.51,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12441.51,"end":12443.51,"text":"第二個我請教一下部長"},{"start":12443.51,"end":12445.51,"text":"就是關於所謂的"},{"start":12445.51,"end":12447.51,"text":"特教助理員"},{"start":12447.51,"end":12449.51,"text":"的部分"},{"start":12449.51,"end":12451.51,"text":"行政院其實去年的年底我們"},{"start":12451.51,"end":12453.51,"text":"特別調高了高中小學"},{"start":12453.51,"end":12455.51,"text":"導師的職務加級跟終點"},{"start":12455.51,"end":12457.51,"text":"費用"},{"start":12457.51,"end":12459.51,"text":"特教的加級去年六月"},{"start":12459.51,"end":12461.51,"text":"核定但是延宕到今年的"},{"start":12461.51,"end":12463.51,"text":"二月才生效"},{"start":12463.51,"end":12465.51,"text":"才生效"},{"start":12465.51,"end":12467.51,"text":"近期我們更是正式的核定"},{"start":12467.51,"end":12469.51,"text":"可以修正回溯到九月"},{"start":12469.51,"end":12471.51,"text":"但是關於"},{"start":12471.51,"end":12473.51,"text":"特教助理員其實分"},{"start":12473.51,"end":12475.51,"text":"為兩類"},{"start":12475.51,"end":12477.51,"text":"這個也是我一直以來一直在關心"},{"start":12477.51,"end":12479.51,"text":"的第一類"},{"start":12479.51,"end":12481.51,"text":"其實是所謂的特教學生助理員"},{"start":12481.51,"end":12483.51,"text":"第二類是特教教師助理員"},{"start":12483.51,"end":12485.51,"text":"但是先前"},{"start":12485.51,"end":12487.51,"text":"我們的調薪跟回溯"},{"start":12487.51,"end":12489.51,"text":"目前我們看到了只有特教"},{"start":12489.51,"end":12491.51,"text":"學生助理員的部分特教"},{"start":12491.51,"end":12493.51,"text":"教師助理員"},{"start":12493.51,"end":12495.51,"text":"完全被排除在外"},{"start":12495.51,"end":12497.51,"text":"那我想請教一下部長"},{"start":12497.51,"end":12499.51,"text":"同樣都是特教助理員"},{"start":12499.51,"end":12501.51,"text":"請問兩位是不是"},{"start":12501.51,"end":12503.51,"text":"都在特教班服務"},{"start":12503.51,"end":12505.51,"text":"是不是每天也都在陪伴"},{"start":12505.51,"end":12507.51,"text":"所謂的特殊"},{"start":12507.51,"end":12509.51,"text":"需求的學生是不是也要"},{"start":12509.51,"end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116.76,"text":"那在這個部分交易部要掌握多少"},{"start":13119.9,"end":13121.9,"text":"他說幼兒園現在上課"},{"start":13121.9,"end":13123.9,"text":"暑假延拖"},{"start":13123.9,"end":13125.9,"text":"暑假延拖的幼兒園"},{"start":13125.9,"end":13127.9,"text":"那現在是達到了94%"},{"start":13127.9,"end":13129.9,"text":"的元素"},{"start":13129.67,"end":13130.17,"text":"是"},{"start":13132.92,"end":13134.92,"text":"那這些食物"},{"start":13134.92,"end":13136.42,"text":"他們目前"},{"start":13136.42,"end":13138.42,"text":"營養午餐的這些食物呢"},{"start":13138.68,"end":13140.68,"text":"都有掌握住"},{"start":13140.68,"end":13142.68,"text":"是安全的嗎"},{"start":13142.68,"end":13144.68,"text":"現在暑假的部分幼兒園的部分"},{"start":13144.68,"end":13146.68,"text":"大概有3032元"},{"start":13146.68,"end":13148.68,"text":"那國中"},{"start":13148.68,"end":13150.68,"text":"小高中大概有40個學校"},{"start":13150.68,"end":13152.68,"text":"暑假期間"},{"start":13152.68,"end":13154.68,"text":"他們有一些活動或是"},{"start":13154.68,"end":13156.68,"text":"有些課會供應"},{"start":13156.68,"end":13158.68,"text":"那這個部分都是"},{"start":13158.68,"end":13160.68,"text":"有掌握住"},{"start":13160.68,"end":13162.68,"text":"也要掌握是是"},{"start":13162.44,"end":13164.44,"text":"那因為"},{"start":13164.44,"end":13166.44,"text":"這個衛福部"},{"start":13166.44,"end":13168.44,"text":"從這裡可以看出"},{"start":13168.44,"end":13170.44,"text":"衛福部在執行上是很大的"},{"start":13170.44,"end":13172.44,"text":"一個失利"},{"start":13172.44,"end":13174.44,"text":"這執行力是讓人家非常"},{"start":13174.44,"end":13176.44,"text":"擔心的"},{"start":13176.44,"end":13178.44,"text":"所以剛剛衛福部也有說"},{"start":13178.44,"end":13180.44,"text":"從這個報告裡面也有講到"},{"start":13180.44,"end":13182.44,"text":"致癌的一個致癌油"},{"start":13182.44,"end":13184.44,"text":"風暴從"},{"start":13184.44,"end":13186.44,"text":"1300公噸"},{"start":13186.44,"end":13188.44,"text":"暴增到2600噸"},{"start":13188.44,"end":13190.44,"text":"那麼現在剛剛衛福部的"},{"start":13190.44,"end":13192.44,"text":"還有說"},{"start":13192.44,"end":13194.44,"text":"可能會達到27000噸"},{"start":13194.44,"end":13196.44,"text":"所以我們還是希望"},{"start":13196.44,"end":13198.44,"text":"我們的教育部"},{"start":13198.44,"end":13200.44,"text":"對於校園的一個食安"},{"start":13200.44,"end":13202.44,"text":"一定要來"},{"start":13202.44,"end":13204.44,"text":"掌控"},{"start":13204.44,"end":13206.44,"text":"讓我們的學生讓我們的家長"},{"start":13206.44,"end":13208.44,"text":"都能夠安心"},{"start":13208.44,"end":13210.44,"text":"所以教育部不要一直喊口號"},{"start":13210.44,"end":13212.44,"text":"就是說一定要確保"},{"start":13212.44,"end":13214.44,"text":"學生的安心"},{"start":13214.44,"end":13216.44,"text":"安心就學家長安心"},{"start":13216.44,"end":13218.44,"text":"我們沒有喊口號"},{"start":13218.44,"end":13220.44,"text":"沒有我是說你們的"},{"start":13220.44,"end":13222.44,"text":"報告裡面都有一再的"},{"start":13222.44,"end":13224.44,"text":"這樣的寫"},{"start":13224.44,"end":13226.44,"text":"當然做到最好"},{"start":13226.44,"end":13228.44,"text":"我們就是在叮嚀教育部"},{"start":13228.44,"end":13230.44,"text":"就是在口號必須"},{"start":13230.44,"end":13232.44,"text":"當事件發生以後"},{"start":13232.44,"end":13234.44,"text":"國教署跟地方的一個合作"},{"start":13234.44,"end":13236.44,"text":"我想應該可以肯定"},{"start":13236.44,"end":13238.44,"text":"做這樣的一個"},{"start":13238.44,"end":13240.44,"text":"也讓委員知道"},{"start":13240.44,"end":13242.44,"text":"因為我們目前的學生"},{"start":13242.44,"end":13244.44,"text":"有兩百多萬人"},{"start":13244.44,"end":13246.44,"text":"那因為現在還好"},{"start":13246.44,"end":13248.44,"text":"就是暑假期間"},{"start":13248.44,"end":13250.44,"text":"如果今天不是在暑假期間"},{"start":13250.44,"end":13252.44,"text":"是在課堂當中"},{"start":13252.44,"end":13254.44,"text":"那請問教育部你們有沒有什麼"},{"start":13254.44,"end":13256.44,"text":"危機處理的一個"},{"start":13256.44,"end":13258.44,"text":"先想一下萬一這個"},{"start":13258.44,"end":13260.44,"text":"很僥倖的很幸運的"},{"start":13260.44,"end":13262.44,"text":"這個獨有"},{"start":13262.44,"end":13264.44,"text":"剛好是在暑假期間"},{"start":13264.44,"end":13266.44,"text":"如果是在課堂當中"},{"start":13266.44,"end":13268.44,"text":"那教育部你們"},{"start":13268.44,"end":13270.44,"text":"當然一發現所有的油品我們一定會"},{"start":13270.44,"end":13272.44,"text":"第一個時間全部下架"},{"start":13272.44,"end":13274.44,"text":"團散這裡邊我們事實上"},{"start":13274.44,"end":13276.44,"text":"我相信就團散來講"},{"start":13276.44,"end":13278.44,"text":"他們也不願意提供的一個菜"},{"start":13278.44,"end":13280.44,"text":"這個油品是不健康不安全的"},{"start":13280.44,"end":13282.44,"text":"我想這都是一個"},{"start":13282.44,"end":13284.44,"text":"我們在從"},{"start":13284.44,"end":13286.44,"text":"中央跟地方還有許多的企業"},{"start":13286.44,"end":13288.44,"text":"裡面跟團散上"},{"start":13288.44,"end":13290.44,"text":"都是有一個非常嚴謹的"},{"start":13290.44,"end":13292.44,"text":"一個程序跟"},{"start":13292.44,"end":13294.44,"text":"定點"},{"start":13294.44,"end":13296.44,"text":"我們希望能夠保持這樣的一個默契"},{"start":13296.44,"end":13298.44,"text":"那在這裡我還是要提醒教育部"},{"start":13298.44,"end":13300.44,"text":"就是說教育部不要"},{"start":13300.44,"end":13302.44,"text":"跟著衛福部的一個滾動式"},{"start":13302.44,"end":13304.44,"text":"教育部應該要化被動為主動"},{"start":13304.44,"end":13306.44,"text":"就是在校園的部分"},{"start":13306.44,"end":13308.44,"text":"我們甚至都可以"},{"start":13308.44,"end":13310.44,"text":"超前衛福部"},{"start":13310.44,"end":13312.44,"text":"來對於學校的"},{"start":13312.44,"end":13314.44,"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那麼我們希望"},{"start":13455.71,"end":13457.71,"text":"就是類似這樣的"},{"start":13457.71,"end":13459.71,"text":"我們要做一個危機處理"},{"start":13459.71,"end":13461.71,"text":"我還是要提醒"},{"start":13461.71,"end":13463.71,"text":"今天教育部還有衛福部"},{"start":13463.71,"end":13465.71,"text":"各個行政院"},{"start":13465.71,"end":13467.71,"text":"食品的安全辦公室等"},{"start":13467.71,"end":13469.71,"text":"跨部會都有出席"},{"start":13469.71,"end":13471.71,"text":"那麼本行中心的期望"},{"start":13471.71,"end":13473.71,"text":"行政院 教育部"},{"start":13473.71,"end":13475.71,"text":"還有相關部會 尤其是衛福部"},{"start":13475.71,"end":13477.71,"text":"能夠切身的感受到"},{"start":13477.71,"end":13479.71,"text":"食安的危機"},{"start":13479.71,"end":13481.71,"text":"關心並保障全國的一個"},{"start":13481.71,"end":13483.71,"text":"校園食安 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所以我們是要借用"},{"start":13648.59,"end":13650.59,"text":"這樣的一個借鏡"},{"start":13650.59,"end":13652.59,"text":"運動選手的一個"},{"start":13652.59,"end":13654.59,"text":"嚴格的信念"},{"start":13654.8,"end":13656.8,"text":"嚴格的信念"},{"start":13656.8,"end":13658.8,"text":"可以得到 翻轉他一個人生"},{"start":13658.8,"end":13660.8,"text":"所以在這裡我要跟那個"},{"start":13660.8,"end":13662.8,"text":"部長 我們教育不能再"},{"start":13662.8,"end":13664.8,"text":"鬆綁了 因為呢 我們"},{"start":13664.8,"end":13666.8,"text":"教育鬆綁了 造成很多現在"},{"start":13666.8,"end":13668.8,"text":"目前學校的一個"},{"start":13668.8,"end":13670.8,"text":"的一個 問題會"},{"start":13670.8,"end":13672.8,"text":"這麼多 那"},{"start":13672.61,"end":13674.61,"text":"部長你對於人格"},{"start":13674.61,"end":13676.61,"text":"品格教育啊 我也在"},{"start":13676.61,"end":13678.61,"text":"上次在執行"},{"start":13678.61,"end":13680.61,"text":"彰要次長的時候 我也一直在"},{"start":13680.61,"end":13682.61,"text":"強調學校的 學生的"},{"start":13682.61,"end":13684.61,"text":"品格教育"},{"start":13684.61,"end":13686.61,"text":"一定要加強 我要請那個部長"},{"start":13686.61,"end":13688.61,"text":"你表示一下"},{"start":13688.52,"end":13690.52,"text":"我想我的這個"},{"start":13690.52,"end":13692.52,"text":"基本上我們的態度是一致的"},{"start":13692.52,"end":13694.52,"text":"學生在從小裡邊"},{"start":13694.52,"end":13696.52,"text":"養成良好的一個"},{"start":13696.52,"end":13698.52,"text":"品格行為規範"},{"start":13698.52,"end":13700.52,"text":"我想那是一個國民教育"},{"start":13700.52,"end":13702.52,"text":"每一個國民裡邊我們期待"},{"start":13702.52,"end":13704.52,"text":"的一個教育的目標"},{"start":13704.52,"end":13706.52,"text":"怎麼樣有一個剛才"},{"start":13706.52,"end":13708.52,"text":"委員特別提到了這一個"},{"start":13708.52,"end":13710.52,"text":"用挪威的這個準時"},{"start":13710.52,"end":13712.52,"text":"盡全力然後守規矩"},{"start":13712.52,"end":13714.52,"text":"我想那也都是我們在"},{"start":13714.52,"end":13716.52,"text":"這一個國民教育裡邊一個"},{"start":13716.52,"end":13718.52,"text":"基本的一個對人才培育上的"},{"start":13718.52,"end":13720.52,"text":"一個這一個教育的"},{"start":13720.52,"end":13722.52,"text":"一個方式"},{"start":13722.52,"end":13724.52,"text":"所以我們也非常感謝"},{"start":13724.52,"end":13726.52,"text":"台中地院對這一個"},{"start":13726.52,"end":13728.52,"text":"這一個不當的一個控訴"},{"start":13728.52,"end":13730.52,"text":"本來老師就本以他的"},{"start":13730.52,"end":13732.52,"text":"專業指導學生"},{"start":13732.52,"end":13734.52,"text":"那我們也略見看到"},{"start":13734.52,"end":13736.52,"text":"台中地院對這一個"},{"start":13736.52,"end":13738.52,"text":"學生家跟家長的一些"},{"start":13738.52,"end":13740.52,"text":"不當的一些"},{"start":13740.52,"end":13742.52,"text":"控訴啊這一個給以"},{"start":13742.52,"end":13744.52,"text":"這一個等於說"},{"start":13744.52,"end":13746.52,"text":"所以在這裡"},{"start":13746.52,"end":13748.52,"text":"要求部長對於"},{"start":13748.52,"end":13750.52,"text":"學校所有的"},{"start":13750.52,"end":13752.52,"text":"現在目前有幾個學校"},{"start":13752.52,"end":13754.52,"text":"還有禮儀廉恥"},{"start":13754.52,"end":13756.52,"text":"這樣的一個校訓"},{"start":13756.52,"end":13758.52,"text":"然後對於學生的一個"},{"start":13758.52,"end":13760.52,"text":"品格教育尤其是"},{"start":13760.52,"end":13762.52,"text":"上課之前"},{"start":13762.52,"end":13764.52,"text":"以前我們學校7點半上課"},{"start":13764.52,"end":13766.52,"text":"現在改成8點"},{"start":13766.52,"end":13768.52,"text":"那以前7點半上課有很多遲到的"},{"start":13768.52,"end":13770.52,"text":"學生他7點45分才來"},{"start":13770.52,"end":13772.52,"text":"中間還有15分鐘可以"},{"start":13772.52,"end":13774.52,"text":"做一個緩和"},{"start":13774.52,"end":13776.52,"text":"那現在8點上課"},{"start":13776.52,"end":13778.52,"text":"8點10分"},{"start":13778.52,"end":13780.52,"text":"來學校8點10分就上課"},{"start":13780.52,"end":13782.52,"text":"那有多少的學生"},{"start":13782.52,"end":13784.52,"text":"都是遲到的那現在"},{"start":13784.52,"end":13786.52,"text":"有很多學生他迷戀"},{"start":13786.52,"end":13788.52,"text":"網路所以晚上"},{"start":13788.52,"end":13790.52,"text":"都不睡覺的"},{"start":13790.52,"end":13792.52,"text":"那一大早不是遲到"},{"start":13792.52,"end":13794.52,"text":"來到那個教室是為了"},{"start":13794.52,"end":13796.52,"text":"那在這裡"},{"start":13796.52,"end":13798.52,"text":"我們就"},{"start":13798.52,"end":13800.52,"text":"有看到教育部"},{"start":13800.52,"end":13802.52,"text":"教育部的書面報告有提到"},{"start":13802.52,"end":13804.52,"text":"為了避免重複"},{"start":13804.52,"end":13806.52,"text":"處分那個寬課學生"},{"start":13806.52,"end":13808.52,"text":"所以上課總初期"},{"start":13808.52,"end":13810.52,"text":"沒有達到三分之二"},{"start":13810.52,"end":13812.52,"text":"就拿不到畢業證書"},{"start":13812.52,"end":13814.52,"text":"問題呢拿不到畢業證書"},{"start":13814.52,"end":13816.52,"text":"但是可以拿到休業證明"},{"start":13816.52,"end":13818.52,"text":"那目前的一個教育"},{"start":13818.52,"end":13820.52,"text":"你們要拿到畢業證書"},{"start":13820.52,"end":13822.52,"text":"拿到休業證書是可以考大學的"},{"start":13823.03,"end":13825.03,"text":"那請問一下部長"},{"start":13825.03,"end":13827.03,"text":"那這樣子"},{"start":13827.03,"end":13829.03,"text":"對於你這個辦法"},{"start":13829.03,"end":13831.03,"text":"這個評量的辦法"},{"start":13831.03,"end":13833.03,"text":"有效率嗎"},{"start":13832.16,"end":13834.16,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":13834.16,"end":13836.16,"text":"怎麼樣以實具性有一些"},{"start":13836.16,"end":13838.16,"text":"對學生老師授予這個"},{"start":13838.16,"end":13840.16,"text":"更高的一個專業的一個管教權"},{"start":13840.16,"end":13842.16,"text":"或者學生行為的規範"},{"start":13842.16,"end":13844.16,"text":"我同意應該以實具性"},{"start":13844.16,"end":13846.16,"text":"但剛才委員所提的"},{"start":13846.16,"end":13848.16,"text":"這高中生他沒有畢業證書"},{"start":13848.16,"end":13850.16,"text":"他就可以用同等學歷來考"},{"start":13850.16,"end":13852.16,"text":"這至少在這個制度"},{"start":13852.16,"end":13854.16,"text":"就我的記憶至少"},{"start":13854.16,"end":13856.16,"text":"超過二十年或者甚至三十年"},{"start":13856.16,"end":13858.16,"text":"以上了也就是說過去他一路"},{"start":13858.16,"end":13860.16,"text":"來那但是"},{"start":13860.16,"end":13862.16,"text":"比例沒有那麼高"},{"start":13862.16,"end":13864.16,"text":"我同意我們怎麼樣以實具性來"},{"start":13864.16,"end":13866.16,"text":"做檢討我講這是應該的"},{"start":13866.16,"end":13868.16,"text":"因為"},{"start":13868.16,"end":13870.16,"text":"這個就是"},{"start":13870.16,"end":13872.16,"text":"我們要談到"},{"start":13872.16,"end":13874.16,"text":"就是"},{"start":13874.16,"end":13876.16,"text":"我在六月二十四號"},{"start":13876.16,"end":13878.16,"text":"還有質詢到"},{"start":13878.16,"end":13880.16,"text":"一個教師依法輔導"},{"start":13880.16,"end":13882.16,"text":"跟管教學生"},{"start":13882.16,"end":13884.16,"text":"仍然必須就是"},{"start":13884.16,"end":13886.16,"text":"禁止對學生體罰"},{"start":13886.16,"end":13888.16,"text":"連隔說辱這個都沒有問題"},{"start":13888.16,"end":13890.16,"text":"正當老師採取正當"},{"start":13891.14,"end":13893.14,"text":"可以比例延遲的一個"},{"start":13893.14,"end":13895.14,"text":"維持秩序的同時"},{"start":13895.14,"end":13897.14,"text":"教育部必須給他一個制度的"},{"start":13897.14,"end":13899.14,"text":"制度的一個後盾"},{"start":13899.14,"end":13901.14,"text":"做他的制度的一個後盾"},{"start":13901.14,"end":13903.14,"text":"跟我們報告我們教師"},{"start":13903.14,"end":13905.14,"text":"教師解聘不續聘的這裡邊的"},{"start":13905.14,"end":13907.14,"text":"法令的相關規定他已經明文"},{"start":13907.14,"end":13909.14,"text":"老師本以這一個專業"},{"start":13909.14,"end":13911.14,"text":"來指的這個"},{"start":13911.14,"end":13913.14,"text":"管教學生是不受罰"},{"start":13913.14,"end":13915.14,"text":"就是說法令上已經都有明文上的一個規範"},{"start":13915.14,"end":13917.14,"text":"那當然"},{"start":13917.14,"end":13919.14,"text":"我也理解這樣一個法令"},{"start":13919.14,"end":13921.14,"text":"到這個第一線上的中小學"},{"start":13921.14,"end":13923.14,"text":"這個裡邊的處理"},{"start":13923.14,"end":13925.14,"text":"難免會有一個效用上的一些"},{"start":13925.14,"end":13927.14,"text":"落差"},{"start":13927.14,"end":13929.14,"text":"這我想我們來提醒"},{"start":13929.14,"end":13931.14,"text":"地方跟怎麼來支持"},{"start":13931.14,"end":13933.14,"text":"第一線上的這些老師"},{"start":13933.14,"end":13935.14,"text":"我想這是應該"},{"start":13935.14,"end":13937.14,"text":"那在教師法第八款"},{"start":13937.14,"end":13939.14,"text":"也有很明定的說"},{"start":13939.14,"end":13941.14,"text":"如果老師已經進入到"},{"start":13941.14,"end":13943.14,"text":"司法的時候"},{"start":13943.14,"end":13945.14,"text":"學校有義務"},{"start":13945.14,"end":13947.14,"text":"來幫他聘請律師來辯護"},{"start":13947.14,"end":13949.14,"text":"那麼我們也希望"},{"start":13949.14,"end":13951.14,"text":"教義部能夠"},{"start":13951.14,"end":13953.14,"text":"當然是最好不要"},{"start":13953.14,"end":13955.14,"text":"如果有這樣的一個現象"},{"start":13955.14,"end":13957.14,"text":"教義部是不是能夠來貫徹執行"},{"start":13957.14,"end":13959.14,"text":"就是說老師如果有進入到"},{"start":13959.14,"end":13961.14,"text":"司法"},{"start":13961.14,"end":13963.14,"text":"教義部有權"},{"start":13963.14,"end":13965.14,"text":"所以要幫他聘請"},{"start":13965.14,"end":13967.14,"text":"律師來幫他辯護"},{"start":13967.14,"end":13969.14,"text":"在這個地方我們希望"},{"start":13969.14,"end":13971.14,"text":"教義部能夠執行"},{"start":13971.14,"end":13973.14,"text":"再來"},{"start":13973.14,"end":13975.14,"text":"在我6月24號"},{"start":13975.14,"end":13977.14,"text":"當了張廖次長"},{"start":13977.14,"end":13979.14,"text":"做了兩次的交流"},{"start":13979.14,"end":13981.14,"text":"就是說校事會議"},{"start":13981.14,"end":13983.14,"text":"為什麼會這麼亂言"},{"start":13983.14,"end":13985.14,"text":"會這麼混亂"},{"start":13985.14,"end":13987.14,"text":"事實上我就提出一個想法"},{"start":13987.14,"end":13989.14,"text":"就是說我們能不能設立"},{"start":13989.14,"end":13991.14,"text":"一個諮詢委員會"},{"start":13991.14,"end":13993.14,"text":"這個諮詢委員會"},{"start":13993.14,"end":13995.14,"text":"能夠先把所有申訴的案件"},{"start":13995.14,"end":13997.14,"text":"在這個諮詢委員會"},{"start":13997.14,"end":13999.14,"text":"做一個過濾"},{"start":14000.37,"end":14002.37,"text":"校長還有當事人老師"},{"start":14002.37,"end":14004.37,"text":"都不知道這件事情"},{"start":14004.37,"end":14006.37,"text":"讓老師能夠安心的"},{"start":14006.37,"end":14008.37,"text":"教學讓校長"},{"start":14008.37,"end":14010.37,"text":"也能夠安心的治癒學校"},{"start":14010.37,"end":14012.37,"text":"不要一下子就進到學校來"},{"start":14012.37,"end":14014.37,"text":"還要讓老師讓這個"},{"start":14014.37,"end":14016.37,"text":"校長老師來三方"},{"start":14016.37,"end":14018.37,"text":"做說明這樣子的話你看"},{"start":14018.37,"end":14020.37,"text":"老師本身基於"},{"start":14020.37,"end":14022.37,"text":"他的一個專業住址"},{"start":14022.37,"end":14024.37,"text":"他對於學生的一個管教是"},{"start":14024.37,"end":14026.37,"text":"合理的時候還要讓"},{"start":14026.37,"end":14028.37,"text":"這個三方來做這樣"},{"start":14028.37,"end":14030.37,"text":"我覺得這個對"},{"start":14030.37,"end":14032.37,"text":"老師還有校長"},{"start":14032.37,"end":14034.37,"text":"都是很大的一個傷害"},{"start":14034.37,"end":14036.37,"text":"所以我在這裡已經第三次"},{"start":14036.37,"end":14038.37,"text":"提供教育部能不能成立"},{"start":14038.37,"end":14040.37,"text":"這樣一個諮詢委員會"},{"start":14040.37,"end":14042.37,"text":"希望教育部能夠來做一個"},{"start":14042.37,"end":14044.37,"text":"評量"},{"start":14044.37,"end":14046.37,"text":"是不是合適"},{"start":14046.37,"end":14048.37,"text":"諮詢委員會應該自在哪一個地方"},{"start":14048.37,"end":14050.37,"text":"當然這個是"},{"start":14050.37,"end":14052.37,"text":"教育部的前線我希望能夠"},{"start":14052.37,"end":14054.37,"text":"考慮這樣的一個"},{"start":14054.37,"end":14056.37,"text":"諮詢委員會在這裡跟"},{"start":14056.37,"end":14058.37,"text":"部長做一個交流"},{"start":14058.37,"end":14060.37,"text":"謝謝委員的這個建議"},{"start":14060.37,"end":14062.37,"text":"因為我們上個禮拜的"},{"start":14062.37,"end":14064.37,"text":"全國教育局處首長會議"},{"start":14064.37,"end":14066.37,"text":"確實有地方政府"},{"start":14066.37,"end":14068.37,"text":"比如說高雄市他建議"},{"start":14068.37,"end":14070.37,"text":"在還沒有進入這一個"},{"start":14070.37,"end":14072.37,"text":"之前他們就可以來"},{"start":14072.37,"e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部長請出"},{"start":14502.83,"end":14504.83,"text":"下一位01警委員"},{"start":14511.09,"end":14513.09,"text":"有請鄭部長"},{"start":14520.55,"end":14522.55,"text":"部長辛苦"},{"start":14522.93,"end":14524.93,"text":"就你今晚"},{"start":14524.59,"end":14526.59,"text":"我第九號"},{"start":14526.59,"end":14528.59,"text":"教文委會"},{"start":14529.28,"end":14531.28,"text":"請問吧"},{"start":14531.76,"end":14533.76,"text":"加油啊"},{"start":14533.87,"end":14535.87,"text":"上週七號八號"},{"start":14535.87,"end":14537.87,"text":"一連兩天有在新的官"},{"start":14537.87,"end":14539.87,"text":"古板全國教育局處長"},{"start":14539.87,"end":14541.87,"text":"會議"},{"start":14541.87,"end":14543.87,"text":"那會中大家都有持續對於"},{"start":14543.87,"end":14545.87,"text":"校事會有提出這個"},{"start":14545.87,"end":14547.87,"text":"達成共識"},{"start":14547.87,"end":14549.87,"text":"那彭署長也有說"},{"start":14549.87,"end":14551.87,"text":"這個新制上路後的"},{"start":14551.87,"end":14553.87,"text":"分析報告會在7月15號"},{"start":14553.87,"end":14555.87,"text":"7月15號"},{"start":14555.87,"end":14557.87,"text":"這個完成"},{"start":14557.87,"end":14559.87,"text":"到時候除了對照這個"},{"start":14559.87,"end":14561.87,"text":"舊版的這個同時起的狀況"},{"start":14561.87,"end":14563.87,"text":"之後也會跟地方"},{"start":14563.87,"end":14565.87,"text":"政府就食物面"},{"start":14565.87,"end":14567.87,"text":"的相關困難會交換意見"},{"start":14567.87,"end":14569.87,"text":"那針對校事會議"},{"start":14569.87,"end":14571.87,"text":"我在這裡有四點"},{"start":14571.87,"end":14573.87,"text":"要跟教育部確認"},{"start":14573.87,"end":14575.87,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":14575.87,"end":14577.87,"text":"我們是訂定辦法"},{"start":14577.87,"end":14579.87,"text":"本來就是行政機關"},{"start":14579.87,"end":14581.87,"text":"依法有據的權責"},{"start":14581.87,"end":14583.87,"text":"那今天立法院"},{"start":14583.87,"end":14585.87,"text":"要求要退回"},{"start":14585.87,"end":14587.87,"text":"或者要求教育部"},{"start":14587.87,"end":14589.87,"text":"修正校事會議的"},{"start":14589.87,"end":14591.87,"text":"這個相關辦法的依據"},{"start":14591.87,"end":14593.87,"text":"是什麼"},{"start":14593.87,"end":14595.87,"text":"我要請問部長就今天提出"},{"start":14595.87,"end":14597.87,"text":"這一案的委員或者是"},{"start":14597.87,"end":14599.87,"text":"黨團他既然要介入"},{"start":14599.87,"end":14601.87,"text":"行政機關"},{"start":14601.87,"end":14603.87,"text":"依法有據的權責"},{"start":14603.87,"end":14605.87,"text":"那他就應該要提出具體的依據"},{"start":14605.87,"end":14607.87,"text":"跟要求"},{"start":14607.87,"end":14609.87,"text":"所以等一下請部長回答"},{"start":14609.87,"end":14611.87,"text":"到底他提出具體的依據跟要求是什麼"},{"start":14611.87,"end":14613.87,"text":"第二"},{"start":14613.87,"end":14615.87,"text":"既然7月15號我們就要提出"},{"start":14615.87,"end":14617.87,"text":"校事會議的相關的分析"},{"start":14617.87,"end":14619.87,"text":"報告"},{"start":14619.87,"end":14621.87,"text":"那是否至少要等到7月15號"},{"start":14621.87,"end":14623.87,"text":"這個具體的分析"},{"start":14623.87,"end":14625.87,"text":"這個報告之後我們再來看"},{"start":14625.87,"end":14627.87,"text":"在建立現有的基礎上"},{"start":14627.87,"end":14629.87,"text":"讓校事會議"},{"start":14629.87,"end":14631.87,"text":"的這個相關辦法可以定得更好"},{"start":14631.87,"end":14633.87,"text":"那不然我們到底拿什麼"},{"start":14633.87,"end":14635.87,"text":"當基礎做改革"},{"start":14635.87,"end":14637.87,"text":"那第三就目前"},{"start":14637.87,"end":14639.87,"text":"個縣市由教育局"},{"start":14639.87,"end":14641.87,"text":"直接交辦給學校"},{"start":14641.87,"end":14643.87,"text":"的受理的這個所謂的"},{"start":14643.87,"end":14645.87,"text":"檢舉案件的比例"},{"start":14645.87,"end":14647.87,"text":"平均現在是33%"},{"start":14647.87,"end":14649.87,"text":"那其中有10個"},{"start":14649.87,"end":14651.87,"text":"縣市是高於這個"},{"start":14651.87,"end":14653.87,"text":"33%那有6個"},{"start":14653.87,"end":14655.87,"text":"縣市是高於"},{"start":14655.87,"end":14657.87,"text":"60%等於這6個縣市"},{"start":14657.87,"end":14659.87,"text":"有60%以上的比例"},{"start":14659.87,"end":14661.87,"text":"監要檢舉案件"},{"start":14661.87,"end":14663.87,"text":"就直接交到學校去"},{"start":14663.87,"end":14665.87,"text":"好 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所以我們馬上做了修正"},{"start":14709.8,"end":14711.8,"text":"很努力的跟"},{"start":14711.8,"end":14713.8,"text":"這個各地方縣市不同的團體"},{"start":14713.8,"end":14715.8,"text":"做談"},{"start":14715.8,"end":14717.8,"text":"後來慢慢我對現場的"},{"start":14717.8,"end":14719.8,"text":"一個掌握更清楚我們也"},{"start":14719.8,"end":14721.8,"text":"做了這樣一個調整"},{"start":14721.8,"end":14723.8,"text":"所以也看到了確實"},{"start":14723.8,"end":14725.8,"text":"從去年相對時期"},{"start":14725.8,"end":14727.8,"text":"跟今年"},{"start":14727.8,"end":14729.8,"text":"它的一個數量是大量的減少"},{"start":14729.8,"end":14731.8,"text":"我想這都是一個"},{"start":14731.8,"end":14733.8,"text":"完好的方面"},{"start":14733.8,"end":14735.8,"text":"所以其實倒是"},{"start":14736.92,"end":14738.92,"text":"委員剛才所提的如果對校事會議"},{"start":14738.92,"end":14740.92,"text":"要退回到底我們有哪些"},{"start":14740.92,"end":14742.92,"text":"委員有哪些具體的一個"},{"start":14742.92,"end":14744.92,"text":"這個看法"},{"start":14744.92,"end":14746.92,"text":"我想我們也"},{"start":14746.92,"end":14748.92,"text":"這個悉心接受"},{"start":14748.92,"end":14750.92,"text":"委員是不是能夠直接跟我們"},{"start":14750.92,"end":14752.92,"text":"講的有一個比較清楚"},{"start":14752.92,"end":14754.92,"text":"我們到底要"},{"start":14754.92,"end":14756.92,"text":"就是要有具體的依據跟要求才可以幫你退回"},{"start":14756.92,"end":14758.92,"text":"或要求你修正"},{"start":14758.92,"end":14760.92,"text":"另外我們新的辦法裡面確實"},{"start":14760.92,"end":14762.92,"text":"也跟委員報告"},{"start":14762.92,"end":14764.92,"text":"我們看到過去有六個縣市"},{"start":14764.92,"end":14766.92,"text":"超過六十%都直接交下去的"},{"start":14766.92,"end":14768.92,"text":"這裡邊我們新的"},{"start":14768.92,"end":14770.92,"text":"辦法也做了一些規範"},{"start":14770.92,"end":14772.92,"text":"你要交下去必須要"},{"start":14772.92,"end":14774.92,"text":"根據我們幾個"},{"start":14774.92,"end":14776.92,"text":"譬如說它有沒有匿名"},{"start":14776.92,"end":14778.92,"text":"居民的你是不是有真正"},{"start":14778.92,"end":14780.92,"text":"查證它是真的當事人"},{"start":14780.92,"end":14782.92,"text":"這個人民跟它寫的"},{"start":14782.92,"end":14784.92,"text":"是不是一致的"},{"start":14784.92,"end":14786.92,"text":"所有的東西我們都有"},{"start":14786.92,"end":14788.92,"text":"確認過以後你才能夠"},{"start":14788.92,"end":14790.92,"text":"轉請學校去辦理"},{"start":14790.92,"end":14792.92,"text":"那這個部分我相信"},{"start":14792.92,"end":14794.92,"text":"未來它都會降低我剛才"},{"start":14794.92,"end":14796.92,"text":"特別也在"},{"start":14796.92,"end":14798.92,"text":"會跟其他委員報告說"},{"start":14798.92,"end":14800.92,"text":"以我們來看新的辦法光"},{"start":14800.92,"end":14802.92,"text":"這一個台中市就"},{"start":14802.92,"end":14804.92,"text":"降了一半"},{"start":14804.47,"end":14806.47,"text":"過去同一個年度裡面"},{"start":14806.47,"end":14808.47,"text":"進入到校市會議的"},{"start":14808.47,"end":14810.47,"text":"一個件數今年到同一個"},{"start":14810.47,"end":14812.47,"text":"他已經減少了52%"},{"start":14812.47,"end":14814.47,"text":"就是說我們看到"},{"start":14814.47,"end":14816.47,"text":"他有一些縣市事實上"},{"start":14816.47,"end":14818.47,"text":"他已經掌握到整個"},{"start":14818.47,"end":14820.47,"text":"新的辦法他的"},{"start":14820.47,"end":14822.47,"text":"精神所以對"},{"start":14822.47,"end":14824.47,"text":"老師也干擾到明顯"},{"start":14824.47,"end":14826.47,"text":"的減少那當然我們也期待"},{"start":14826.47,"end":14828.47,"text":"說有一些縣市"},{"start":14828.47,"end":14830.47,"text":"如果還沒有反應過來"},{"start":14830.47,"end":14832.47,"text":"我們希望他應該"},{"start":14832.47,"end":14834.47,"text":"不應該要好好地去跟地方政府"},{"start":14834.47,"end":14836.47,"text":"溝通"},{"start":14836.47,"end":14838.47,"text":"我們現在所有的後端的data"},{"start":14838.47,"end":14840.47,"text":"證據我們事實上都很清楚"},{"start":14840.47,"end":14842.47,"text":"包括這個所謂的建立這個"},{"start":14842.47,"end":14844.47,"text":"在校市會議前建立調處"},{"start":14844.47,"end":14846.47,"text":"的機制這個各縣市政府"},{"start":14846.47,"end":14848.47,"text":"要怎麼樣確保他遵從"},{"start":14848.47,"end":14850.47,"text":"22個縣市"},{"start":14850.47,"end":14852.47,"text":"確實是上個禮拜"},{"start":14852.47,"end":14854.47,"text":"二禮拜三的會議裡面"},{"start":14854.47,"end":14856.47,"text":"局處所長會大部分"},{"start":14856.47,"end":14858.47,"text":"是都認為說新的辦法"},{"start":14858.47,"end":14860.47,"text":"不要再改了已經夠好了"},{"start":14860.47,"end":14862.47,"text":"他們也認為能夠達到"},{"start":14862.47,"end":14864.47,"text":"保護學生的受教權"},{"start":14864.47,"end":14866.47,"text":"然後也能夠維護"},{"start":14866.47,"end":14868.47,"text":"老師的一個專業權"},{"start":14868.47,"end":14870.47,"text":"那怎麼樣"},{"start":14871.43,"end":14873.43,"text":"能夠確保到地方"},{"start":14873.76,"end":14875.76,"text":"縣市所以後來就是變成"},{"start":14875.76,"end":14877.76,"text":"高雄市說他們有"},{"start":14877.76,"end":14879.76,"text":"第三方的比紹勞資"},{"start":14879.76,"end":14881.76,"text":"糾紛的一個所謂勞資"},{"start":14881.76,"end":14883.76,"text":"的調處"},{"start":14883.76,"end":14885.76,"text":"家長跟老師"},{"start":14885.76,"end":14887.76,"text":"的一個調處"},{"start":14887.76,"end":14889.76,"text":"台南市也有一個"},{"start":14889.76,"end":14891.76,"text":"調"},{"start":14891.76,"end":14893.76,"text":"那叫做調和"},{"start":14894.08,"end":14896.08,"text":"桃園市他是認為說"},{"start":14896.08,"end":14898.08,"text":"不要讓學校裡邊來"},{"start":14898.08,"end":14900.08,"text":"來分案"},{"start":14900.08,"end":14902.08,"text":"到底要不要進入到"},{"start":14902.08,"end":14904.08,"text":"分案是教育局"},{"start":14904.08,"end":14906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tart":15187.96,"end":15189.96,"text":"不要調成A、B"},{"start":15189.96,"end":15191.96,"text":"再來還要走行政程序去調其他的"},{"start":15191.96,"end":15193.96,"text":"所以部長距離您上次表達"},{"start":15193.96,"end":15195.96,"text":"已經過了半年你覺得終點費"},{"start":15195.96,"end":15197.96,"text":"要一併調整的機制你有建立了嗎"},{"start":15201.51,"end":15203.51,"text":"其實我必須要"},{"start":15203.51,"end":15205.51,"text":"跟委員坦白"},{"start":15205.51,"end":15207.51,"text":"過去當通過"},{"start":15207.51,"end":15209.51,"text":"這個終點費的時候"},{"start":15209.3,"end":15211.3,"text":"從我過去的行政的一個經驗"},{"start":15211.3,"end":15213.3,"text":"他是一體適用"},{"start":15213.3,"end":15215.3,"text":"但是後來我發現我們在"},{"start":15215.3,"end":15217.3,"text":"這個行政的一個"},{"start":15217.3,"end":15219.3,"text":"體系裡面人事總處"},{"start":15219.3,"end":15221.3,"text":"他確實有不同的規劃"},{"start":15221.3,"end":15223.3,"text":"那這個部分我們會來"},{"start":15223.3,"end":15225.3,"text":"建立共識希望以後像這個"},{"start":15225.3,"end":15227.3,"text":"就由教育部能夠"},{"start":15227.3,"end":15229.3,"text":"經過整個程序以後"},{"start":15229.3,"end":15231.3,"text":"就一體適用我想這"},{"start":15231.3,"end":15233.3,"text":"我們來簡化行政手續"},{"start":15233.3,"end":15235.3,"text":"也能夠對各式各樣的"},{"start":15235.3,"end":15237.3,"text":"老師有更大的支持"},{"start":15237.3,"end":15239.3,"text":"而不要造成說這一邊的先過來"},{"start":15239.3,"end":15241.3,"text":"那邊還要在那邊等"},{"start":15241.3,"end":15243.3,"text":"我們還要再報這個行政院"},{"start":15243.3,"end":15245.3,"text":"核定再一次我想這一個部分"},{"start":15245.3,"end":15247.3,"text":"我們一定會來深切建立"},{"start":15247.3,"end":15249.3,"text":"非常謝謝部長"},{"start":15249.3,"end":15251.3,"text":"除了我們剛剛講的是政課時間"},{"start":15251.3,"end":15253.3,"text":"的教師的終點費"},{"start":15253.3,"end":15255.3,"text":"需要調整一次外"},{"start":15255.3,"end":15257.3,"text":"還有就是所謂的非政課"},{"start":15257.3,"end":15259.3,"text":"性質的終點費像什麼"},{"start":15259.3,"end":15261.3,"text":"像第八節課"},{"start":15261.3,"end":15263.3,"text":"或像寒暑假的輔導課"},{"start":15263.3,"end":15265.3,"text":"或者重補修"},{"start":15265.3,"end":15267.3,"text":"或者夜光天使的計畫"},{"start":15267.3,"end":15269.3,"text":"還是課後的照顧班"},{"start":15269.3,"end":15271.3,"text":"我的意思是說在現行的制度下"},{"start":15271.3,"end":15273.3,"text":"當然這些是地方政府的權責"},{"start":15273.3,"end":15275.3,"text":"也是需要地方政府來調整"},{"start":15275.3,"end":15277.3,"text":"可是現在就是說我們中央如果"},{"start":15277.3,"end":15279.3,"text":"沒有一致的所謂的標準"},{"start":15279.3,"end":15281.3,"text":"那地方政府他就會"},{"start":15281.3,"end":15283.3,"text":"互相推諉他說中央政府又"},{"start":15283.3,"end":15285.3,"text":"沒講你會說你地方"},{"start":15285.3,"end":15287.3,"text":"政府你必須要調整所以是不是"},{"start":15287.3,"end":15289.3,"text":"能不能訂立一個"},{"start":15289.3,"end":15291.3,"text":"比較一致的相關"},{"start":15291.3,"end":15293.3,"text":"的規範讓地方政府"},{"start":15293.3,"end":15295.3,"text":"可以遵循也無所閃避"},{"start":15295.3,"end":15297.3,"text":"然後你這邊"},{"start":15297.3,"end":15299.3,"text":"就是我們也可以就是"},{"start":15299.3,"end":15301.3,"text":"所謂的非政課跟政課都一併"},{"start":15301.3,"end":15303.3,"text":"來調整只要終點費有調漲"},{"start":15303.3,"end":15305.3,"text":"的前例之下"},{"start":15305.3,"end":15307.3,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為地方"},{"start":15307.3,"end":15309.3,"text":"因地制宜他會發展許多不同"},{"start":15309.3,"end":15311.3,"text":"的班別包括終點費"},{"start":15311.3,"end":15313.3,"text":"有一些可能家長另外"},{"start":15313.3,"end":15315.3,"text":"收的錢有一些我相信"},{"start":15315.3,"end":15317.3,"text":"其實就地方來講"},{"start":15317.3,"end":15319.3,"text":"他如果要比照"},{"start":15319.3,"end":15321.3,"text":"辦理依照這樣他事實上法"},{"start":15321.3,"end":15323.3,"text":"法延上是非常清楚我們在行政"},{"start":15323.3,"end":15325.3,"text":"的裁量跟行政的運作"},{"start":15325.3,"end":15327.3,"text":"這完全是沒有任何"},{"start":15327.3,"end":15329.3,"text":"的一個阻礙的"},{"start":15329.3,"end":15331.3,"text":"那當然"},{"start":15330.58,"end":15332.58,"text":"就是說"},{"start":15331.95,"end":15333.95,"text":"至少從教育部的立場"},{"start":15333.95,"end":15335.95,"text":"就用到公家經費的"},{"start":15335.95,"end":15337.95,"text":"能夠比照辦理那時候"},{"start":15337.95,"end":15339.95,"text":"完全沒有"},{"start":15339.95,"end":15341.95,"text":"自癌的那如果另外"},{"start":15341.95,"end":15343.95,"text":"額外收錢要家長付費"},{"start":15343.95,"end":15345.95,"text":"另外學校裡面去"},{"start":15345.95,"end":15347.95,"text":"訂定經過討論訂定一個費用"},{"start":15347.95,"end":15349.95,"text":"或者甚至地方政府也"},{"start":15349.95,"end":15351.95,"text":"都會訂定這樣一個所謂"},{"start":15351.95,"end":15353.95,"text":"的費用的一個支援辦"},{"start":15353.95,"end":15355.95,"text":"我想我們是可以尊重"},{"start":15355.95,"end":15357.95,"text":"好那另外就是說"},{"start":15357.95,"end":15359.95,"text":"當然我的前提還是希望說"},{"start":15359.95,"end":15361.95,"text":"這個調整是一致的啦"},{"start":15361.95,"end":15363.95,"text":"因為這些課不管是"},{"start":15363.95,"end":15365.95,"text":"公家給的經費"},{"start":15365.95,"end":15367.95,"text":"還是說這個家長"},{"start":15367.95,"end":15369.95,"text":"自己付費的所謂的"},{"start":15369.95,"end":15371.95,"text":"政課跟非政課都還是老師"},{"start":15371.95,"end":15373.95,"text":"來受課老師來教"},{"start":15373.95,"end":15375.95,"text":"所以如果說可以保障"},{"start":15375.95,"end":15377.95,"text":"老師的權益當然是可以調整"},{"start":15377.95,"end":15379.95,"text":"一致的是比較好那現在"},{"start":15379.95,"end":15381.95,"text":"有教師團體認為說"},{"start":15381.95,"end":15383.95,"text":"乾脆把這個教師終點費"}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那麼我看到"},{"start":15825.55,"end":15827.55,"text":"其實今天的報告也有"},{"start":15827.55,"end":15829.55,"text":"寫到7月7號"},{"start":15829.55,"end":15831.55,"text":"截止你們也有公佈"},{"start":15831.55,"end":15833.55,"text":"了一些"},{"start":15833.55,"end":15835.55,"text":"就是有受到影響的縣市"},{"start":15835.55,"end":15837.55,"text":"是哪些縣市"},{"start":15838.09,"end":15840.09,"text":"7月7號的時候"},{"start":15840.09,"end":15842.09,"text":"那一天部長在局長會議的第一天"},{"start":15842.09,"end":15844.09,"text":"有講那時候是"},{"start":15844.09,"end":15846.09,"text":"四個縣市"},{"start":15846.09,"end":15848.09,"text":"那雙北"},{"start":15847.57,"end":15849.57,"text":"基隆 台中"},{"start":15849.57,"end":15851.57,"text":"那時候是165個學校"},{"start":15851.57,"end":15853.57,"text":"那我知道的是"},{"start":15853.57,"end":15855.57,"text":"應該"},{"start":15855.57,"end":15857.57,"text":"那個時候講的是"},{"start":15857.57,"end":15859.57,"text":"第一層的"},{"start":15859.57,"end":15861.57,"text":"四家廠商的那個有品"},{"start":15861.57,"end":15863.57,"text":"到後來繼續有提到"},{"start":15863.57,"end":15865.57,"text":"232個品項"},{"start":15865.57,"end":15867.57,"text":"以及後來提到"},{"start":15867.57,"end":15869.57,"text":"401個品項"},{"start":15869.57,"end":15871.57,"text":"後來又再提到440個品項"},{"start":15871.57,"end":15873.57,"text":"這個我們每次"},{"start":15873.57,"end":15875.57,"text":"主播都有第一時間"},{"start":15875.57,"end":15877.57,"text":"第二層的產品也有"},{"start":15877.57,"end":15879.57,"text":"在詳查"},{"start":15879.57,"end":15881.57,"text":"那我現在就是想要請教主長"},{"start":15881.57,"end":15883.57,"text":"因為我們是從校園食材"},{"start":15883.57,"end":15885.57,"text":"登錄平台去撈資料"},{"start":15885.57,"end":15887.57,"text":"所以我們也想要去做一個"},{"start":15887.57,"end":15889.57,"text":"確認就是"},{"start":15889.57,"end":15891.57,"text":"每一個學校這個登錄"},{"start":15891.57,"end":15893.57,"text":"平台上面"},{"start":15893.57,"end":15895.57,"text":"他是否如實的登載"},{"start":15895.57,"end":15897.57,"text":"有沒有去了解過"},{"start":15897.57,"end":15899.57,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":15899.57,"end":15901.57,"text":"在我們的餐廳 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"start":16104.92,"end":16106.92,"text":"落入詐騙或者騙取"},{"start":16106.92,"end":16108.92,"text":"個資這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":16108.92,"end":16110.92,"text":"那甚至呢我們也看到說"},{"start":16110.92,"end":16112.92,"text":"像是7-11"},{"start":16112.92,"end":16114.92,"text":"他有委託"},{"start":16114.92,"end":16116.92,"text":"聯華食品去製作"},{"start":16116.92,"end":16118.92,"text":"這個鮮食"},{"start":16118.92,"end":16120.92,"text":"那他這個受"},{"start":16120.92,"end":16122.92,"text":"這個治癌有的波及到"},{"start":16122.92,"end":16124.92,"text":"80多項那他"},{"start":16124.92,"end":16126.92,"text":"很好因為有電子錢包"},{"start":16126.92,"end":16128.92,"text":"他可以採用會員的"},{"start":16128.92,"end":16130.92,"text":"主動退費所以在這裡"},{"start":16130.92,"end":16132.92,"text":"我看到7月8號9號"},{"start":16134.46,"end":16136.46,"text":"行政院有召開一個"},{"start":16136.46,"end":16138.46,"text":"各部會工作的協調會議"},{"start":16138.46,"end":16140.46,"text":"那其中有提到"},{"start":16140.46,"end":16142.46,"text":"要協調衛福部經濟部"},{"start":16142.46,"end":16144.46,"text":"還有行政院的"},{"start":16144.46,"end":16146.46,"text":"消保處"},{"start":16146.37,"end":16148.37,"text":"對於國人持下架油品"},{"start":16148.37,"end":16150.37,"text":"到通路"},{"start":16150.37,"end":16152.37,"text":"退換貨的這個事宜"},{"start":16152.37,"end":16154.37,"text":"所以在這個部分"},{"start":16154.37,"end":16156.37,"text":"我不曉得說"},{"start":16157.03,"end":16159.03,"text":"目前的規劃是怎麼做"},{"start":16159.38,"end":16161.38,"text":"像至少我們知道"},{"start":16161.38,"end":16163.38,"text":"連民眾都可以去結合財政部的"},{"start":16163.38,"end":16165.38,"text":"電子發票整合服務平台"},{"start":16165.38,"end":16167.38,"text":"去設計這樣的一個"},{"start":16167.38,"end":16169.38,"text":"系統那我就不曉得說"},{"start":16169.38,"end":16171.38,"text":"衛福部這個地方打算怎麼做"},{"start":16171.38,"end":16173.38,"text":"好謝謝委員現在我們在"},{"start":16173.38,"end":16175.38,"text":"之前的會議裡面陳時中"},{"start":16175.38,"end":16177.38,"text":"政委也才是就是說"},{"start":16177.38,"end":16179.38,"text":"我們盡量要減變從寬"},{"start":16179.38,"end":16181.38,"text":"處理這是第一個原則"},{"start":16181.38,"end":16183.38,"text":"那第二個部分就是因為"},{"start":16183.38,"end":16185.38,"text":"現在我們有兩個部分有一些"},{"start":16185.38,"end":16187.38,"text":"油品是查出他有超標"},{"start":16187.38,"end":16189.38,"text":"那一批就是下架回收"},{"start":16189.38,"end":16191.38,"text":"但是因為我們發現四月到六月"},{"start":16191.38,"end":16193.38,"text":"中聯的油品我們持續這樣子"},{"start":16193.38,"end":16195.38,"text":"已經到第三波了所以我們後來"},{"start":16195.38,"end":16197.38,"text":"是決議從四月到六月中聯"},{"start":16197.38,"end":16199.38,"text":"這29批是全部預防性"},{"start":16199.38,"end":16201.38,"text":"下架好那預防性下架"},{"start":16201.38,"end":16203.38,"text":"的話呢那有一些還在做後續"},{"start":16203.38,"end":16205.38,"text":"的檢驗所以是預防性下架的目的是"},{"start":16205.38,"end":16207.38,"text":"避免如果說後續還有一些"},{"start":16207.38,"end":16209.38,"text":"檢驗出來的問題那後續的處理"},{"start":16209.38,"end":16211.38,"text":"有問題後續會有一些處理上更"},{"start":16211.38,"end":16213.38,"text":"複雜也讓民眾能夠在現在"},{"start":16213.38,"end":16215.38,"text":"市面上可以比較安心"},{"start":16215.38,"end":16217.38,"text":"那至於說接下來這一些"},{"start":16217.38,"end":16219.38,"text":"現在的狀況就是民眾"},{"start":16219.38,"end":16221.38,"text":"有疑慮我們就跟這些目前遇到"},{"start":16221.38,"end":16223.38,"text":"因為在中聯下面有泰山"},{"start":16223.38,"end":16225.38,"text":"福茂跟福壽三家廠商"},{"start":16225.38,"end":16227.38,"text":"這三家廠商我們有跟他們說到"},{"start":16227.38,"end":16229.38,"text":"就是他們現在都接受他們所有下游"},{"start":16229.38,"end":16231.38,"text":"的這個退貨"},{"start":16231.38,"end":16233.38,"text":"退貨之後後續這邊的相關的"},{"start":16233.38,"end":16235.38,"text":"剛剛講到的賠償或者是這個"},{"start":16235.38,"end":16237.38,"text":"費用的部分那我們會再做一個比較"},{"start":16237.38,"end":16239.38,"text":"細節的研議我們也目前是先要求"},{"start":16239.38,"end":16241.38,"text":"廠商這邊目前是"},{"start":16241.38,"end":16243.38,"text":"要求廠商這邊他們要有跟我們"},{"start":16243.38,"end":16245.38,"text":"同步的公開資訊那再來的話"},{"start":16245.38,"end":16247.38,"text":"在食安基金這邊後續"},{"start":16247.38,"end":16249.38,"text":"也會有一些處理那請教"},{"start":16249.38,"end":16251.38,"text":"大家在意的關於"},{"start":16251.38,"end":16253.38,"text":"要不要舉證那這個"},{"start":16253.38,"end":16255.38,"text":"查詢還有申請責任"},{"start":16255.38,"end":16257.38,"text":"那會由消費者"},{"start":16257.38,"end":16259.38,"text":"這邊來提出嗎我們現在是盡量重寬"},{"start":16259.38,"end":16261.38,"text":"好所以是盡量重寬"},{"start":16261.38,"end":16263.38,"text":"對好謝謝"},{"start":16263.38,"end":16265.38,"text":"好謝謝次長謝謝謝謝"},{"start":16265.38,"end":16267.38,"text":"那接下來我還是要了解一下"},{"start":16267.38,"end":16269.38,"text":"食安法的"},{"start":16269.38,"end":16271.38,"text":"修法方向因為"},{"start":16271.38,"end":16273.38,"text":"我們都知道這一次有提到"},{"start":16273.38,"end":16275.38,"text":"大家都注意到了"},{"start":16275.38,"end":16277.38,"text":"這個業者他們的"},{"start":16277.38,"end":16279.38,"text":"自主檢驗"},{"start":16279.38,"end":16281.38,"text":"跟這個第三方"},{"start":16281.38,"end":16283.38,"text":"檢驗他到底有沒有"},{"start":16283.38,"end":16285.38,"text":"通報的義務還有"},{"start":16285.38,"end":16287.38,"text":"這一次的源頭關乎"},{"start":16287.38,"end":16289.38,"text":"邊境的管理等等"},{"start":16289.38,"end":16291.38,"text":"其實大家也很關注"},{"start":16291.38,"end":16293.38,"text":"所以在這邊我是"},{"start":16293.38,"end":16295.38,"text":"想要了解說"},{"start":16295.38,"end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李行克我請"},{"start":17868.22,"end":17870.22,"text":"鄭部長我後面這個問題"},{"start":17871.46,"end":17873.46,"text":"今天呢來部長辛苦"},{"start":17874.65,"end":17876.65,"text":"我今天後來發現"},{"start":17876.65,"end":17878.65,"text":"召委有另外一個"},{"start":17878.65,"end":17880.65,"text":"議案今天也排了審查"},{"start":17880.65,"end":17882.65,"text":"對不起詢答"},{"start":17882.65,"end":17884.65,"text":"就是教育"},{"start":17884.65,"end":17886.65,"text":"經費編列與管理法"},{"start":17886.65,"end":17888.65,"text":"那也有在野黨"},{"start":17888.65,"end":17890.65,"text":"的委員明確"},{"start":17890.65,"end":17892.65,"text":"的入法修正"},{"start":17892.65,"end":17894.65,"text":"要求各級政府教育經費"},{"start":17894.65,"end":17896.65,"text":"的預算合計"},{"start":17896.65,"end":17898.65,"text":"不應低於該年度預算"},{"start":17898.65,"end":17900.65,"text":"籌編十前三"},{"start":17900.65,"end":17902.65,"text":"年決算稅入進額"},{"start":17902.65,"end":17904.65,"text":"和平均值的百分之二十四"},{"start":17904.65,"end":17906.65,"text":"從現有的百分之"},{"start":17906.65,"end":17908.65,"text":"二十三的法規"},{"start":17908.65,"end":17910.65,"text":"提升一個百分之"},{"start":17910.65,"end":17912.65,"text":"二十四"},{"start":17912.65,"end":17914.65,"text":"問題這一個百分之"},{"start":17914.65,"end":17916.65,"text":"在中央的預算"},{"start":17916.65,"end":17918.65,"text":"支出就非常的"},{"start":17918.65,"end":17920.65,"text":"龐大"},{"start":17919.93,"end":17921.93,"text":"部長大概是將近四百億吧"},{"start":17923.69,"end":17925.69,"text":"當然我不需要再贅述"},{"start":17925.69,"end":17927.69,"text":"對於財政紀律法第五條"},{"start":17927.69,"end":17929.69,"text":"第七條立法委員"},{"start":17929.69,"end":17931.69,"text":"不能片面增加政府支出"},{"start":17931.69,"end":17933.69,"text":"更不得增訂"},{"start":17933.69,"end":17935.69,"text":"固定的經費額度"},{"start":17935.69,"end":17937.69,"text":"或比例的保障"},{"start":17937.69,"end":17939.69,"text":"我都不需要再贅述"},{"start":17939.69,"end":17941.69,"text":"只是這些立委"},{"start":17941.69,"end":17943.69,"text":"一而再再而三的要"},{"start":17943.69,"end":17945.69,"text":"違法來修法"},{"start":17945.69,"end":17947.69,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":17947.69,"end":17949.69,"text":"部長這是我們的警訊"},{"start":17950.37,"end":17952.37,"text":"這個表呢"},{"start":17952.07,"end":17956.07,"text":"上一周的質詢我只做到ABCD啦"},{"start":17956.75,"end":17958.75,"text":"現在又加了一個1"},{"start":17958.75,"end":17960.75,"text":"趙偉在拍照很好請記錄喔"},{"start":17961.93,"end":17963.93,"text":"我們的"},{"start":17963.48,"end":17965.48,"text":"大學法"},{"start":17965.48,"end":17967.48,"text":"高級中等教育法"},{"start":17967.48,"end":17969.48,"text":"專科學校法"},{"start":17969.48,"end":17971.48,"text":"也就是學代三法"},{"start":17971.48,"end":17973.48,"text":"強制透過立委的修法"},{"start":17973.48,"end":17975.48,"text":"片面增加而且中央全負擔"},{"start":17975.48,"end":17977.48,"text":"一年增加"},{"start":17977.48,"end":17979.48,"text":"國庫一百到四百億"},{"start":17979.63,"end":17981.63,"text":"B就是營養午餐"},{"start":17981.63,"end":17983.63,"text":"專法下午可能會逐條"},{"start":17983.63,"end":17985.63,"text":"每年強制"},{"start":17985.63,"end":17987.63,"text":"要求中央買單"},{"start":17987.63,"end":17989.63,"text":"又要增加國庫一百三十八億"},{"start":17989.63,"end":17991.63,"text":"C幼兒教育及照顧法"},{"start":17991.63,"end":17993.63,"text":"又要求中央"},{"start":17993.63,"end":17995.63,"text":"地方負擔的額度"},{"start":17995.63,"end":17997.63,"text":"又強制"},{"start":17997.63,"end":17999.63,"text":"得來入法中央又"},{"start":17999.63,"end":18001.63,"text":"大失血每年要增加"},{"start":18001.63,"end":18003.63,"text":"四百到六百億"},{"start":18003.63,"end":18005.63,"text":"第一呢國教向下"},{"start":18005.63,"end":18007.63,"text":"延伸而且是中央"},{"start":18007.63,"end":18009.63,"text":"買單一次性的硬體"},{"start":18009.63,"end":18011.63,"text":"增加至少"},{"start":18011.63,"end":18013.63,"text":"八十億而每年常態"},{"start":18013.63,"end":18015.63,"text":"會增加國庫一百億"},{"start":18016.49,"end":18018.49,"text":"到ABCDE"},{"start":18018.49,"end":18020.49,"text":"今天最新的教育經費"},{"start":18020.49,"end":18022.49,"text":"編列與管理法"},{"start":18022.49,"end":18024.49,"text":"又因為這個一個%"},{"start":18024.49,"end":18026.49,"text":"的修改"},{"start":18026.49,"end":18028.49,"text":"每年國庫又要增加"},{"start":18028.49,"end":18030.49,"text":"四百億所以ABCDE"},{"start":18030.49,"end":18032.49,"text":"加起來"},{"start":18032.49,"end":18034.49,"text":"教育部每年"},{"start":18034.49,"end":18036.49,"text":"要增加"},{"start":18036.49,"end":18038.49,"text":"一千一百三十八億"},{"start":18038.49,"end":18040.49,"text":"到一千六百"},{"start":18040.49,"end":18042.49,"text":"三十八億"},{"start":18042.07,"end":18044.07,"text":"加上固定的硬體"},{"start":18044.07,"end":18046.07,"text":"八十億一次"},{"start":18047.89,"end":18049.89,"text":"每年國家又要"},{"start":18049.89,"end":18051.89,"text":"有一千一百三十八到"},{"start":18051.89,"end":18053.89,"text":"一千六百三十八億"},{"start":18055.77,"end":18057.77,"text":"教育部有錢嗎"},{"start":18059.99,"end":18061.99,"text":"我們才華法我們一年教育部少了多少錢"},{"start":18065.07,"end":18067.07,"text":"教育部少了九百多億"},{"start":18069,"end":18071,"text":"我們有不停教育嗎"},{"start":18071,"end":18073,"text":"夏業"},{"start":18072.34,"end":18074.34,"text":"當我們的國家財政有餘裕"},{"start":18076.66,"end":18078.66,"text":"我們來看看我從2017年"},{"start":18080.41,"end":18082.41,"text":"我們所編列的教育預算"},{"start":18083.31,"end":18085.31,"text":"到2026年我來看"},{"start":18085.31,"end":18087.31,"text":"這十年間"},{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這些關鍵字"},{"start":19054.5,"end":19056.5,"text":"就直接不是只有品牌名稱"},{"start":19056.5,"end":19058.5,"text":"我們連油的名稱"},{"start":19058.5,"end":19062.5,"text":"也直接用關鍵字來擴大模糊收集"},{"start":19062.5,"end":19065.5,"text":"那一收集出來是1385項"},{"start":19065.5,"end":19070.5,"text":"這1385項立即就跟有關線是"},{"start":19070.9,"end":19073.9,"text":"發送之後他們去查批號"},{"start":19073.9,"end":19077.9,"text":"查批號是不是衛福部所公佈的那一天的"},{"start":19077.9,"end":19079.9,"text":"那一個油品的批號"},{"start":19079.9,"end":19082.9,"text":"類似這樣 我們查證的過程是這樣"},{"start":19082.9,"end":19085.9,"text":"那個是第一層油 那四家中聯等三家"},{"start":19085.9,"end":19089.9,"text":"接著到7月5號 6號開始"},{"start":19089.9,"end":19091.9,"text":"有下一層的商家"},{"start":19091.9,"end":19093.9,"text":"譬如說360家"},{"start":19093.9,"end":19096.9,"text":"原來講230年花了360"},{"start":19096.9,"end":19099.9,"text":"360行政院覺得這個還不夠"},{"start":19101.38,"end":19102.38,"text":"用到他的產品"},{"start":19102.38,"end":19105.38,"text":"所以後來有232個產品"},{"start":19105.38,"end":19107.38,"text":"或是401個產品"},{"start":19107.38,"end":19109.38,"text":"以及440個產品"},{"start":19109.38,"end":19111.38,"text":"我們就用那個產品就去去去撈"},{"start":19111.38,"end":19115.38,"text":"就變成了剛剛講的這個數字 1195項"},{"start":19116.03,"end":19120.03,"text":"所以這個也是剛好可以跟剛才許委員所講的"},{"start":19120.03,"end":19122.03,"text":"第一次那個165"},{"start":19122.03,"end":19124.03,"text":"或是後來的228"},{"start":19124.03,"end":19128.03,"text":"是指那四家油品直接去搜尋"},{"start":19128.03,"end":19131.03,"text":"那後來是就第二層的產品"},{"start":19131.03,"end":19134.03,"text":"他可能某個公司譬如說"},{"start":19134.69,"end":19136.69,"text":"那個"},{"start":19136.61,"end":19140.61,"text":"有一家咖啡店他去買到了這個油"},{"start":19140.61,"end":19143.61,"text":"那這個油他去可能做了什麼的那個什麼"},{"start":19143.61,"end":19145.61,"text":"我們又去擴大去搜集"},{"start":19145.61,"end":19146.61,"text":"大概是這樣子"},{"start":19146.61,"end":19148.61,"text":"這個部分就是要拜託你們"},{"start":19148.61,"end":19151.61,"text":"因為現在我們全國也是進行的是預防性下架"},{"start":19151.61,"end":19154.61,"text":"也就是他產期生產在4到6月的"},{"start":19154.61,"end":19155.61,"text":"不管你批次了"},{"start":19155.61,"end":19158.61,"text":"我們也預防性就是說我們怕有漏掉"},{"start":19158.61,"end":19161.61,"text":"怕說還沒有查出來結果之後查出來"},{"start":19161.61,"end":19162.61,"text":"所以都先下架"},{"start":19162.61,"end":19164.61,"text":"所以拜託你們務必密切的"},{"start":19164.61,"end":19166.61,"text":"密切的跟地方政府保持聯繫"},{"start":19166.61,"end":19167.61,"text":"第二個我們要滾動式的"},{"start":19167.61,"end":19169.61,"text":"他為服務這裡發布到什麼程度"},{"start":19169.61,"end":19171.61,"text":"我們都要提前預先的來做"},{"start":19171.61,"end":19174.61,"text":"那再來除了這個停損以外"},{"start":19174.61,"end":19175.61,"text":"就後續的"},{"start":19175.61,"end":19180.61,"text":"大家在討論的是這個接下來的團體訴訟的球場"},{"start":19180.61,"end":19182.61,"text":"因為這學生孩子"},{"start":19182.61,"end":19184.61,"text":"因為現在剛好放暑假"},{"start":19184.61,"end":19187.61,"text":"但是孩子倘若有吃到這樣的這個午餐"},{"start":19187.61,"end":19188.61,"text":"他是受害者"},{"start":19188.61,"end":19191.61,"text":"但這個油品不是孩子或家長去賣的"},{"start":19191.61,"end":19193.61,"text":"所以目前在這個團體訴訟"},{"start":19193.61,"end":19195.61,"text":"未來要球場的話"},{"start":19195.61,"end":19197.61,"text":"我們教育部怎麼來協助呢"},{"start":19199.78,"end":19200.78,"text":"這個跟委員報告"},{"start":19200.78,"end":19202.78,"text":"關於球場這個部分"},{"start":19202.78,"end":19203.78,"text":"因為受害者"},{"start":19203.78,"end":19205.78,"text":"真的講如果是受害者的話"},{"start":19205.78,"end":19207.78,"text":"絕對不是團散業者"},{"start":19207.78,"end":19208.78,"text":"也不是學校"},{"start":19208.78,"end":19210.78,"text":"而是學校的員工跟學生"},{"start":19210.78,"end":19212.78,"text":"教職員工跟學生"},{"start":19212.78,"end":19214.78,"text":"所以團體訴訟將來"},{"start":19214.78,"end":19219.78,"text":"我們為請兩個優良消保團體進行團體訴訟的時候"},{"start":19219.78,"end":19222.78,"text":"就會以這些受害的學生跟教職員工"},{"start":19222.78,"end":19225.78,"text":"為所謂的請求權讓有的對象"},{"start":19225.78,"end":19228.78,"text":"那由消保團體來進行後續的團體訴訟"},{"start":19228.78,"end":19230.78,"text":"我看到7月9號就是上禮拜四"},{"start":19230.78,"end":19232.78,"text":"我們有跟消保團體和衛福部"},{"start":19232.78,"end":19234.78,"text":"有一起開了一個會"},{"start":19234.78,"end":19236.78,"text":"所以你們是有特別註記說"},{"start":19236.78,"end":19237.78,"text":"這個是含受害者"},{"start":19237.78,"end":19240.78,"text":"就含學生跟教職員工"},{"start":19240.78,"end":19242.78,"text":"那我今天就是特別想要來"},{"start":19242.78,"end":19244.78,"text":"拜託教育部再去研擬"},{"start":19244.78,"end":19246.78,"text":"因為2013年當時我們台北"},{"start":19246.78,"end":19247.78,"text":"有一個舊案"},{"start":19247.78,"end":19249.78,"text":"富衛鄉混油案"},{"start":19249.78,"end":19251.78,"text":"當時這個地方政府"},{"start":19251.78,"end":19253.78,"text":"他是由教育局"},{"start":19253.78,"end":19255.78,"text":"然後連同學校"},{"start":19255.78,"end":19257.78,"text":"因為他的採購人也是學校"},{"start":19257.78,"end":19259.78,"text":"學校也是可能是採購方"},{"start":19259.78,"end":19262.78,"text":"學校也可能成為訴訟的主體"},{"start":19262.78,"end":19264.78,"text":"來進行團體訴訟"},{"start":19264.78,"end":19267.78,"text":"是不是也有這一個軌或這一個方式"},{"start":19267.78,"end":19270.78,"text":"請教育部去把這些過去的案例"},{"start":19270.78,"end":19271.78,"text":"把它找出來"},{"start":19271.78,"end":19273.78,"text":"因為其實我看是有相關案例的"},{"start":19273.78,"end":19275.78,"text":"就是說因為你走消保的話"},{"start":19275.78,"end":19278.78,"text":"你是說這個教職員或學生"},{"start":19278.78,"end":19280.78,"text":"我們一起來團體訴訟"},{"start":19280.78,"end":19282.78,"text":"但今天如果訴訟的主體是學校"},{"start":19282.78,"end":19284.78,"text":"這可能在處理這個程序上面"},{"start":19284.78,"end":19285.78,"text":"對家長來講"},{"start":19285.78,"end":19287.78,"text":"其實可能會更方便一些"},{"start":19287.78,"end":19288.78,"text":"這個請你們去看看"},{"start":19288.78,"end":19290.78,"text":"過去倘若有案例"},{"start":19290.78,"end":19291.78,"text":"是怎麼樣再進行的"},{"start":19291.78,"end":19293.78,"text":"盡量來協助這個權益的"},{"start":19293.78,"end":19295.78,"text":"這個救濟跟保障"},{"start":19295.78,"end":19296.78,"text":"好那我還有一點時間"},{"start":19296.78,"end":19299.78,"text":"是我一定要跟這個部長來關切"},{"start":19299.78,"end":19300.78,"text":"兩個議題我很關心"},{"start":19300.78,"end":19301.78,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":19301.78,"end":19303.78,"text":"上次我們在這裡有質詢討論過"},{"start":19303.78,"end":19305.78,"text":"有關於這個委員有提案"},{"start":19305.78,"end":19307.78,"text":"要把國教來向下延伸"},{"start":19307.78,"end":19309.78,"text":"也就是五歲兒童"},{"start":19309.78,"end":19312.78,"text":"要強迫入學幼兒園的這個提案"},{"start":19312.78,"end":19314.78,"text":"那因為當時我就很擔心"},{"start":19314.78,"end":19317.78,"text":"說教授未來這會變成是大班要強迫入學"},{"start":19317.78,"end":19320.78,"text":"那在強迫入學上面學區的分發"},{"start":19320.78,"end":19322.78,"text":"後續的作業要怎麼樣去做"},{"start":19322.78,"end":19324.78,"text":"地方政府有沒有這個量能來承接"},{"start":19324.78,"end":19326.78,"text":"以及我們現在的制度是否來得及"},{"start":19326.78,"end":19327.78,"text":"修改跟配套"},{"start":19327.78,"end":19329.78,"text":"所以當時我要求教育部說"},{"start":19329.78,"end":19333.78,"text":"你們一定務必要去跟地方政府的教育局處"},{"start":19333.78,"end":19334.78,"text":"來去開會討論"},{"start":19334.78,"end":19336.78,"text":"了解他們實務上的狀況"},{"start":19336.78,"end":19337.78,"text":"你們有沒有去了解了"},{"start":19339.13,"end":19341.13,"text":"確實我們上個禮拜二禮拜三的"},{"start":19341.13,"end":19343.13,"text":"全國教育局處所長會議"},{"start":19343.13,"end":19345.13,"text":"這一個也是一個議題"},{"start":19345.13,"end":19347.13,"text":"那地方也認為說"},{"start":19347.13,"end":19350.13,"text":"在此時因為他有強迫性"},{"start":19350.13,"end":19353.13,"text":"還有連動到我們所有的公司幼兒園"},{"start":19353.13,"end":19356.13,"text":"包含學校的扣車"},{"start":19356.13,"end":19358.13,"text":"那是哪些縣市的教育局有來"},{"start":19358.13,"end":19361.13,"text":"是全國的嗎還是分區的"},{"start":19361.13,"end":19363.13,"text":"全國的地方縣市教育局"},{"start":19363.13,"end":19364.13,"text":"那當然這其中有"},{"start":19364.13,"end":19368.13,"text":"因為基隆市他的處長"},{"start":19368.13,"end":19371.13,"text":"因為這個額念的事件他請辭"},{"start":19371.13,"end":19373.13,"text":"所以是派科長來"},{"start":19373.13,"end":19374.13,"text":"就是說其他的基本"},{"start":19374.13,"end":19375.13,"text":"那他們表達的意見"},{"start":19375.13,"end":19379.13,"text":"基本上就是說大家希望能夠評價幼兒園"},{"start":19379.13,"end":19381.13,"text":"的這樣一個政策應該繼續推"},{"start":19381.13,"end":19385.13,"text":"因為它涉及到我們如果當國民教育向下延伸"},{"start":19385.13,"end":19386.13,"text":"它有強迫性"},{"start":19386.13,"end":19388.13,"text":"那我們學校的一個教育"},{"start":19388.13,"end":19391.13,"text":"空間、師資、課程、教材都要有另外"},{"start":19391.13,"end":19393.13,"text":"那會不會也因為這樣"},{"start":19393.13,"end":19397.13,"text":"衝擊到既有的私立的幼兒園等等的整體"},{"start":19397.13,"end":19400.13,"text":"大家的一個看法還是說"},{"start":19400.13,"end":19405.13,"text":"我們還是先把現在對年輕人的知識"},{"start":19405.13,"end":19408.13,"text":"能夠向課後的延拖、寒暑假"},{"start":19408.13,"end":19411.13,"text":"然後這裡邊把它落實"},{"start":19411.13,"end":19413.13,"text":"包含區域上的一些"},{"start":19413.13,"end":19416.13,"text":"這個幼托的這些資源"},{"start":19416.13,"end":19418.13,"text":"能夠讓它真正能夠到位"},{"start":19418.13,"end":19419.13,"text":"我想這一個部分"},{"start":19419.13,"end":19423.13,"text":"我們大概那一天的一個會議結論"},{"start":19423.13,"end":19426.13,"text":"所以地方政府對於國教向下延伸"},{"start":19426.13,"end":19430.13,"text":"五歲強迫入選是還有一些不同的意見的"},{"start":19430.13,"end":19432.13,"text":"這部分第一個是說"},{"start":19432.13,"end":19436.13,"text":"你們這個會議紀錄可不可以提供給我們委員會來參考"},{"start":19436.13,"end":19438.13,"text":"那我還是要拜託啦"},{"start":19438.13,"end":19440.13,"text":"就是說在立法院修法以前"},{"start":19440.13,"end":19442.13,"text":"請你們一定要跟地方政府多溝通"},{"start":19442.13,"end":19444.13,"text":"也要去尊重地方的意見"},{"start":19444.13,"end":19447.13,"text":"那最後一點是因為今天的議程裡面排成"},{"start":19447.13,"end":19450.13,"text":"也是有關校事會議"},{"start":19450.13,"end":19453.13,"text":"這個過去的這個教育部的修正案"},{"start":19453.13,"end":19454.13,"text":"本來是被查"},{"start":19454.13,"end":19457.13,"text":"我們委員會把它改成審查案今天要來進行"},{"start":19457.13,"end":19460.13,"text":"這個部分其實上次質詢我有提醒過"},{"start":19460.13,"end":19463.13,"text":"因為我覺得還是要去釐清它在議事上面的程序"},{"start":19463.13,"end":19467.13,"text":"因為根據我們立法院職權刑事法第62條"},{"start":19467.13,"end":19469.13,"text":"因為它是行政命令嘛"},{"start":19469.13,"end":19471.13,"text":"這個審查後"},{"start":19471.13,"end":19474.13,"text":"這個我們立法院是"},{"start":19474.13,"end":19481.13,"text":"只能決議、只能通知原定班知機關更正或者廢止"},{"start":19481.13,"end":19482.13,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":19482.13,"end":19484.13,"text":"我們只能退回"},{"start":19484.13,"end":19486.13,"text":"如果要更正也是原定機關"},{"start":19486.13,"end":19488.13,"text":"今天也就是教育部你們要去更正"},{"start":19488.13,"end":19490.13,"text":"我們沒有辦法像修法律律一樣"},{"start":19490.13,"end":19492.13,"text":"在這裡直接來去進行內容"},{"start":19492.13,"end":19495.13,"text":"跟文字上面的修改跟修正"},{"start":19495.13,"end":19498.13,"text":"所以說今天如果我們對於這一個"},{"start":19498.13,"end":19501.13,"text":"它是解拼辦法的這個修正案"},{"start":19501.13,"end":19503.13,"text":"我們今天在審的是修正案"},{"start":19503.13,"end":19507.13,"text":"如果說委員會把它退回的話"},{"start":19507.13,"end":19511.13,"text":"那麼接下來這個解拼辦法會使用的是哪一個版本"},{"start":19511.13,"end":19514.13,"text":"會變成是修正以前的舊制嗎"},{"start":19515.99,"end":19518.99,"text":"如果我們把你們的解拼辦法的修正版退回以後"},{"start":19518.99,"end":19520.99,"text":"那接下來"},{"start":19521.54,"end":19524.54,"text":"這個解拼辦法是用哪一個辦法"},{"start":19524.54,"end":19525.54,"text":"是不是請這個"},{"start":19525.54,"end":19527.54,"text":"這個因為也有老師來問我這個問題"},{"start":19527.54,"end":19529.54,"text":"我覺得還是要把它釐清"},{"start":19529.54,"end":19530.54,"text":"提供委員參考"},{"start":19530.54,"end":19533.54,"text":"因為這個解釋的權責應該不是在教育部"},{"start":19533.54,"end":19537.54,"text":"但是這兩個月內我們要更正或廢止"},{"start":19537.54,"end":19540.54,"text":"那因為這一次的修正"},{"start":19540.54,"end":19545.54,"text":"僅限於115年1月份的這個修正"},{"start":19545.54,"end":19547.54,"text":"所以它內容是有限縮的"},{"start":19547.54,"end":19548.54,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":19548.54,"end":19552.54,"text":"依照教師法29條所授權的這個部分"},{"start":19552.54,"end":19553.54,"text":"做修正"},{"start":19553.54,"end":19555.54,"text":"然後之前的校事會議等等"},{"start":19555.54,"end":19558.54,"text":"這個因為我們之前都有進行過這個"},{"start":19558.54,"end":19561.54,"text":"法規命令的一個程序"},{"start":19561.54,"end":19564.54,"text":"所以那個部分是沒辦法做修正的"},{"start":19564.54,"end":19565.54,"text":"好這沒關係"},{"start":19565.54,"end":19567.54,"text":"因為我們等一下還會進行討論"},{"start":19567.54,"end":19568.54,"text":"只是說我這拜託"},{"start":19568.54,"end":19570.54,"text":"這個你們不是解釋單位"},{"start":19570.54,"end":19572.54,"text":"但是你們是未來執行單位"},{"start":19572.54,"end":19575.54,"text":"就現場發生的問題還是我們教育部來解決"},{"start":19575.54,"end":19576.54,"text":"所以我會比較擔心"},{"start":19576.54,"end":19577.54,"text":"為什麼擔心這一點"},{"start":19577.54,"end":19580.54,"text":"因為我們現在心智至少有幾個我覺得很重要"},{"start":19580.54,"end":19581.54,"text":"比如說我們不能"},{"start":19581.54,"end":19583.54,"text":"就是我們不接受匿名檢舉"},{"start":19583.54,"end":19585.54,"text":"有關於這個霸凌案件的"},{"start":19585.54,"end":19586.54,"text":"然後我們要把它分流"},{"start":19586.54,"end":19587.54,"text":"然後去篩選"},{"start":19587.54,"end":19589.54,"text":"然後我們要有輔助人"},{"start":19589.54,"end":19591.54,"text":"假設現在我好不容易有這個心智"},{"start":19591.54,"end":19592.54,"text":"當然心智一定要精進"},{"start":19592.54,"end":19594.54,"text":"我也要求你們要去精進"},{"start":19594.54,"end":19595.54,"text":"比如說未來要法律協助"},{"start":19595.54,"end":19597.54,"text":"心理諮商輔導"},{"start":19597.54,"end":19599.54,"text":"這個專業協助給老師等等"},{"start":19599.54,"end":19601.54,"text":"可是假設你這個心智被退回了"},{"start":19601.54,"end":19602.54,"text":"要改到舊版"},{"start":19602.54,"end":19604.54,"text":"馬上要開始來匿名檢舉"},{"start":19604.54,"end":19605.54,"text":"這個整個倒行逆施"},{"start":19605.54,"end":19606.54,"text":"我會很擔心"},{"start":19606.54,"end":19608.54,"text":"所以等一下務必要把它釐清"},{"start":19608.54,"end":19609.54,"text":"好不好"},{"start":19609.54,"end":19610.54,"text":"謝謝議長 謝謝主席"},{"start":19618.32,"end":19620.32,"text":"宗家兵宗家兵宗家兵"},{"start":19621.83,"end":19623.83,"text":"接下來有請洪孟凱委員"},{"start":19625.92,"end":19626.92,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":19628.85,"end":19629.85,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":19629.83,"end":19631.83,"text":"不好意思 先請問一下洪孟凱委員"},{"start":19631.83,"end":19634.83,"text":"有要請食安辦主任說明嗎"},{"start":19634.83,"end":19635.83,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":19635.83,"end":19636.83,"text":"因為他還有院會"},{"start":19636.83,"end":19637.83,"text":"要先讓你來"},{"start":19637.83,"end":19638.83,"text":"沒問題 可以嗎"},{"start":19638.83,"end":19639.83,"text":"可以"},{"start":19640.73,"end":19641.73,"text":"OK"},{"start":19644.21,"end":19648.21,"text":"好 那請部長跟衛福部"},{"start":19649.98,"end":19650.98,"text":"次長是不是"},{"start":19650.98,"end":19652.98,"text":"請林靜怡政務次長"},{"start":19652.98,"end":19655.98,"text":"然後跟我們教育部政部長"},{"start":19658.2,"end":19660.2,"text":"好 我先請教一下次長"},{"start":19660.2,"end":19661.2,"text":"衛福部的相關"},{"start":19661.89,"end":19662.89,"text":"我們現在看到是說"},{"start":19662.89,"end":19663.89,"text":"這兩天又爆發是說"},{"start":19663.89,"end":19665.89,"text":"到底中聯4月到6月"},{"start":19665.89,"end":19667.89,"text":"生產多少噸的食用油"},{"start":19667.89,"end":19668.89,"text":"我們有沒有掌握"},{"start":19668.89,"end":19671.89,"text":"有 中聯我們總共29個批次"},{"start":19671.89,"end":19675.89,"text":"那它每一個槽是1300噸"},{"start":19675.89,"end":19678.89,"text":"所以全部目前是預防性下架"},{"start":19678.89,"end":19681.89,"text":"那整個如果是全部算起來的話是"},{"start":19683.43,"end":19685.43,"text":"57萬噸"},{"start":19685.43,"end":19686.43,"text":"2.7萬噸"},{"start":19686.43,"end":19687.43,"text":"2.7萬噸"},{"start":19687.43,"end":19688.43,"text":"2.7萬噸"},{"start":19688.43,"end":19690.43,"text":"2.7萬噸"},{"start":19690.43,"end":19693.43,"text":"2萬7千5百32.7公噸"},{"start":19695.51,"end":19696.51,"text":"對"},{"start":19696.51,"end":19698.51,"text":"這幾個批次"},{"start":19698.51,"end":19699.51,"text":"4月到6月"},{"start":19699.51,"end":19700.51,"text":"29個批次"},{"start":19700.51,"end":19701.51,"text":"29個批次"},{"start":19701.51,"end":19703.51,"text":"那我們看到新聞有報導是說"},{"start":19703.51,"end":19706.51,"text":"昨天石崇良部長"},{"start":19706.51,"end":19708.51,"text":"還講是說現在是預防性下架"},{"start":19708.51,"end":19709.51,"text":"13個批次"},{"start":19709.51,"end":19711.51,"text":"所以到底是現在預防性下架"},{"start":19711.51,"end":19712.51,"text":"13個批次還是29個批次"},{"start":19712.51,"end":19714.51,"text":"我們29個批次裡面"},{"start":19714.51,"end":19715.51,"text":"目前都請他們"},{"start":19715.51,"end":19718.51,"text":"目前這29個批次全部都是預防性下架"},{"start":19718.51,"end":19720.51,"text":"那其中到現在"},{"start":19720.51,"end":19723.51,"text":"有查到有問題的是5個批次"},{"start":19723.51,"end":19724.51,"text":"5個批次"},{"start":19724.51,"end":19729.51,"text":"所以其實從一開始的1個批次2個批次到現在"},{"start":19730.41,"end":19733.41,"text":"5個批次未來會不會再增加不知道"},{"start":19733.41,"end":19737.41,"text":"但是現在所影響的食用油致癌的"},{"start":19737.41,"end":19740.41,"text":"已經高達了不是1300噸"},{"start":19740.41,"end":19742.41,"text":"是現在有可能"},{"start":19742.41,"end":19745.41,"text":"我們以最壞打算的話可能2萬多噸"},{"start":19745.41,"end":19749.41,"text":"那現在你現在幾個批次是有問題的"},{"start":19749.41,"end":19750.41,"text":"目前5個批次"},{"start":19750.41,"end":19752.41,"text":"那5個批次總量多少"},{"start":19752.41,"end":19755.41,"text":"1桶是1萬1300"},{"start":19755.41,"end":19759.41,"text":"所以現在這5個批次是5756.7公噸"},{"start":19759.41,"end":19761.41,"text":"所以至少現在食藥署"},{"start":19761.41,"end":19764.41,"text":"衛福部確認的5000多公噸是有問題了"},{"start":19764.41,"end":19767.41,"text":"對這5000多公噸是必須下架"},{"start":19767.41,"end":19768.41,"text":"好來"},{"start":19768.41,"end":19771.41,"text":"市長那我請教到目前為止"},{"start":19771.41,"end":19772.41,"text":"源頭知道了嗎"},{"start":19772.41,"end":19773.41,"text":"中聯"},{"start":19773.41,"end":19776.41,"text":"對中聯為什麼會產生致癌油"},{"start":19776.41,"end":19777.41,"text":"致呈的問題"},{"start":19777.41,"end":19778.41,"text":"致呈"},{"start":19778.41,"end":19780.41,"text":"對他在致呈或呈"},{"start":19780.41,"end":19783.41,"text":"目前在我們當然這個部分還會在後續再跟專家討論"},{"start":19783.41,"end":19785.41,"text":"不過6月30收到"},{"start":19785.41,"end":19787.41,"text":"目前為止我們看到媒體也好"},{"start":19787.41,"end":19789.41,"text":"或說你們相關的食藥署的報告裡面"},{"start":19789.41,"end":19793.41,"text":"都沒有講到說到底是源頭運輸致呈"},{"start":19793.41,"end":19795.41,"text":"還是哪一個環節出了問題"},{"start":19795.41,"end":19798.41,"text":"目前在6月30收到通知之後"},{"start":19798.41,"end":19801.41,"text":"我們在7月份跟專家的會議裡面"},{"start":19801.41,"end":19804.41,"text":"目前認為是他們在整個致呈過程中的品管"},{"start":19804.41,"end":19805.41,"text":"對"},{"start":19807,"end":19808,"text":"所以品管的問題"},{"start":19808,"end":19809,"text":"是"},{"start":19809.28,"end":19811.28,"text":"目前認為是品管就是不符合HHCP"},{"start":19811.28,"end":19813.28,"text":"那這個過程裡面他有好幾個"},{"start":19813.28,"end":19815.28,"text":"我們其實在品管上必須要設立的節點"},{"start":19815.28,"end":19817.28,"text":"那中聯這邊並沒有得到"},{"start":19817.28,"end":19819.28,"text":"並沒有達到一定的標準"},{"start":19819.28,"end":19820.28,"text":"好所以市長這樣很明顯"},{"start":19820.28,"end":19822.28,"text":"這件事情是徹底的人禍"},{"start":19824.99,"end":19826.99,"text":"因為品管如果說出了問題"},{"start":19826.99,"end":19827.99,"text":"然後還有檢驗沒有辦法"},{"start":19827.99,"end":19829.99,"text":"檢驗如果說他又知道"},{"start":19829.99,"end":19830.99,"text":"然後他又造假"},{"start":19830.99,"end":19831.99,"text":"這個相關的數據的話"},{"start":19831.99,"end":19832.99,"text":"這是徹底的人禍"},{"start":19832.99,"end":19833.99,"text":"是造假這個部分"},{"start":19833.99,"end":19835.99,"text":"目前就是讓檢調來做調查"},{"start":19835.99,"end":19837.99,"text":"是所以說我們現在要釐清的是說"},{"start":19837.99,"end":19839.99,"text":"到底我們影響有多廣"},{"start":19839.99,"end":19840.99,"text":"我們現在可以釐清"},{"start":19840.99,"end":19842.99,"text":"那4月以前呢"},{"start":19843.15,"end":19844.15,"text":"有沒有相關的問題"},{"start":19844.15,"end":19845.15,"text":"因為如果說你現在這樣講的話"},{"start":19845.15,"end":19846.15,"text":"致呈有問題"},{"start":19846.15,"end":19847.15,"text":"那我想請教一下"},{"start":19847.15,"end":19850.15,"text":"中聯他從過去到現在致呈了多少批"},{"start":19852.05,"end":19853.05,"text":"其實前年去年"},{"start":19853.05,"end":19856.05,"text":"如果就您剛講致呈"},{"start":19856.05,"end":19857.05,"text":"我們最後一次"},{"start":19857.05,"end":19859.05,"text":"不管是地方政府或是中央部會"},{"start":19859.05,"end":19862.05,"text":"我們去稽查中聯"},{"start":19862.05,"end":19863.05,"text":"是什麼時候的事"},{"start":19863.05,"end":19867.05,"text":"這個部分我們其實111年到114年"},{"start":19867.05,"end":19869.05,"text":"我們是有食藥署是有"},{"start":19869.05,"end":19872.05,"text":"這一個實用油脂製造業稽查專案"},{"start":19872.05,"end":19874.05,"text":"那地方縣市政府在"},{"start":19874.05,"end":19876.05,"text":"111年到114年"},{"start":19876.05,"end":19878.05,"text":"所以2025年"},{"start":19878.05,"end":19880.05,"text":"所以中聯什麼時候被監視"},{"start":19880.05,"end":19882.05,"text":"現在是三大系統"},{"start":19883.14,"end":19885.14,"text":"全台灣三大系統業者"},{"start":19885.14,"end":19887.14,"text":"如果說以實用油來講的話"},{"start":19887.14,"end":19889.14,"text":"中聯算是其中之一"},{"start":19889.14,"end":19890.14,"text":"他生產的一個實用油"},{"start":19890.14,"end":19892.14,"text":"算是全台灣三分之一"},{"start":19892.14,"end":19893.14,"text":"那我們現在想要問的是"},{"start":19893.14,"end":19896.14,"text":"只有4月5月6月有問題嗎"},{"start":19896.14,"end":19897.14,"text":"之前呢"},{"start":19897.14,"end":19898.14,"text":"如果說就"},{"start":19898.14,"end":19900.14,"text":"市長你剛剛告訴國人的"},{"start":19900.14,"end":19902.14,"text":"是致呈的問題"},{"start":19902.46,"end":19904.46,"text":"那他用這樣的一個致呈方法多久了"},{"start":19904.46,"end":19905.46,"text":"我們這樣子說"},{"start":19905.46,"end":19908.46,"text":"我們當然一開始會把他抓在4月"},{"start":19908.46,"end":19911.46,"text":"是因為我們在6月30收到通報"},{"start":19911.46,"end":19913.46,"text":"他是在4月4號的那一批"},{"start":19913.46,"end":19915.46,"text":"你會抓到是因為4月4號"},{"start":19915.46,"end":19916.46,"text":"那也是南橋查出來"},{"start":19916.46,"end":19919.46,"text":"南橋查出來這跟那個福壽"},{"start":19919.46,"end":19921.46,"text":"福壽再往上講"},{"start":19921.46,"end":19923.46,"text":"所以我們拉似就是南橋"},{"start":19923.46,"end":19924.46,"text":"他後來這樣一路找"},{"start":19924.46,"end":19926.46,"text":"到6月30跟我們通報之後"},{"start":19926.46,"end":19927.46,"text":"我們往前拉"},{"start":19927.46,"end":19928.46,"text":"那個是因為還有吹哨者"},{"start":19928.46,"end":19930.46,"text":"或是說他們這個上下游"},{"start":19930.46,"end":19931.46,"text":"那不叫吹哨者"},{"start":19931.46,"end":19933.46,"text":"上下游廠商他們自己查出來"},{"start":19933.46,"end":19935.46,"text":"那但是現在本席的問題"},{"start":19935.46,"end":19936.46,"text":"又更精進了"},{"start":19936.46,"end":19937.46,"text":"本席的問題是說"},{"start":19937.46,"end":19938.46,"text":"那這樣子我們食藥署"},{"start":19938.46,"end":19939.46,"text":"會不會能夠確認"},{"start":19939.46,"end":19941.46,"text":"只有4月到5月6月嗎"},{"start":19941.46,"end":19943.46,"text":"那往前呢"},{"start":19943.46,"end":19945.46,"text":"他到底做假了多久"},{"start":19945.46,"end":19948.46,"text":"這個部分是不是做假"},{"start":19948.46,"end":19950.46,"text":"他這邊做假的程度是什麼"},{"start":19950.46,"end":19951.46,"text":"這個部分我們現在檢調正在處理"},{"start":19951.46,"end":19952.46,"text":"那我剛剛提到"},{"start":19952.46,"end":19954.46,"text":"111到114年的使用油脂"},{"start":19954.46,"end":19957.46,"text":"這個部分專案其實查合起來"},{"start":19957.46,"end":19958.46,"text":"在當時不論是GHP"},{"start":19958.46,"end":19960.46,"text":"就是我們講的那個標準"},{"start":19960.46,"end":19962.46,"text":"我們資料裡面是204家"},{"start":19962.46,"end":19964.46,"text":"地方政府報上來都是合格的"},{"start":19965.69,"end":19966.69,"text":"就是啊 所以說"},{"start":19966.69,"end":19968.69,"text":"至少市長你剛剛跟我們講的是說"},{"start":19968.69,"end":19970.69,"text":"從111年到114年"},{"start":19970.69,"end":19971.69,"text":"我們的專案"},{"start":19971.69,"end":19973.69,"text":"那從114年之後"},{"start":19974.74,"end":19975.74,"text":"是不是我們都可以合理懷疑"},{"start":19975.74,"end":19976.74,"text":"他其實製程是有問題"},{"start":19976.74,"end":19977.74,"text":"114年之後"},{"start":19977.74,"end":19979.74,"text":"現在我們在115年"},{"start":19979.74,"end":19981.74,"text":"由地方衛生局給我們的資料裡面"},{"start":19981.74,"end":19983.74,"text":"目前都是合格的"},{"start":19983.74,"end":19984.74,"text":"來"},{"start":19985.25,"end":19986.25,"text":"那個部長"},{"start":19987.73,"end":19988.73,"text":"我們"},{"start":19988.91,"end":19989.91,"text":"請跳一下"},{"start":19990.43,"end":19991.43,"text":"部長"},{"start":19991.39,"end":19992.39,"text":"剛剛市長也講了"},{"start":19992.39,"end":19996.39,"text":"這件事情不是只是像一開始爆發說1300噸"},{"start":19996.39,"end":19997.39,"text":"雖然1300噸"},{"start":19997.39,"end":19998.39,"text":"我們聽起來已經很大了"},{"start":19998.39,"end":19999.39,"text":"很多了"},{"start":19999.39,"end":20002.39,"text":"但原來現在有問題的叫做5000多噸"},{"start":20002.39,"end":20003.39,"text":"5000多噸"},{"start":20003.39,"end":20005.39,"text":"而且4月5月6月"},{"start":20005.39,"end":20007.39,"text":"他其實生產了2萬多噸"},{"start":20007.39,"end":20009.39,"text":"其中現在被檢驗出來"},{"start":20009.39,"end":20011.39,"text":"有5000多噸可能有問題"},{"start":20011.39,"end":20012.39,"text":"或說數據造假"},{"start":20012.39,"end":20013.39,"text":"那還有多少沒有檢出來"},{"start":20013.39,"end":20014.39,"text":"不知道"},{"start":20015.27,"end":20017.27,"text":"那我們比較focus在學童的一個部分"},{"start":20017.27,"end":20018.27,"text":"那我想請教"},{"start":20018.27,"end":20020.27,"text":"過去就至少這三個月"},{"start":20021.5,"end":20022.5,"text":"5000多噸裡面"},{"start":20022.5,"end":20024.5,"text":"有流向多少是流到校園"},{"start":20025.58,"end":20027.58,"text":"我們有沒有個數量統計"},{"start":20027.56,"end":20030.56,"text":"跟我們報告這確實就我手邊"},{"start":20030.56,"end":20032.56,"text":"我是比較不清楚"},{"start":20032.56,"end":20033.56,"text":"但是"},{"start":20033.56,"end":20034.56,"text":"你要告訴我說"},{"start":20034.56,"end":20036.56,"text":"有多少的油品總量"},{"start":20036.56,"end":20037.56,"text":"當然"},{"start":20037.56,"end":20040.56,"text":"部長你不覺得這重要嗎"},{"start":20040.56,"end":20041.56,"text":"過去這幾個月"},{"start":20041.56,"end":20042.56,"text":"我們有問題"},{"start":20042.56,"end":20044.56,"text":"現在衛福部告訴我們"},{"start":20044.56,"end":20046.56,"text":"有問題的油叫做5000多噸"},{"start":20046.56,"end":20048.56,"text":"不是一開始1300噸"},{"start":20048.56,"end":20049.56,"text":"那我們想要問的是5000多噸"},{"start":20049.56,"end":20051.56,"text":"有多少已經被我們的學童吃掉了"},{"start":20051.56,"end":20053.56,"text":"只要食藥署公布的"},{"start":20053.56,"end":20055.56,"text":"我們馬上立即就在"},{"start":20055.56,"end":20057.56,"text":"所以你知不知道現在有5000多噸"},{"start":20061.28,"end":20062.28,"text":"現在知道了"},{"start":20062.28,"end":20063.28,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":20063.28,"end":20064.28,"text":"現在知道了"},{"start":20064.64,"end":20067.64,"text":"我們今天討論了半天"},{"start":20067.64,"end":20069.64,"text":"然後經過我們衛福部的資料"},{"start":20069.64,"end":20071.64,"text":"到底有沒有跟教育部跟相關部會"},{"start":20071.64,"end":20073.64,"text":"來去做一個勾稽或是釐清"},{"start":20073.64,"end":20075.64,"text":"我有的這個品項"},{"start":20075.64,"end":20077.64,"text":"這我們就全面下校"},{"start":20077.64,"end":20079.64,"text":"這一個是我跟委員保證的"},{"start":20079.64,"end":20081.64,"text":"那我們學童到底吃了多少不知道"},{"start":20081.99,"end":20082.99,"text":"是不是現在沒有這個統計"},{"start":20086.09,"end":20088.09,"text":"怎麼了這個問題不能問嗎"},{"start":20088.09,"end":20089.09,"text":"部長"},{"start":20089.09,"end":20090.09,"text":"委員我們現在"},{"start":20090.09,"end":20091.09,"text":"部長這個問題不能問嗎"},{"start":20091.09,"end":20092.09,"text":"可以問了"},{"start":20092.09,"end":20093.09,"text":"是啊"},{"start":20093.09,"end":20095.09,"text":"今天小孩子他吃飯吃了多少"},{"start":20095.09,"end":20097.09,"text":"他裡邊到底含油量"},{"start":20097.09,"end":20099.09,"text":"對不起我不是這方面的專家"},{"start":20099.09,"end":20101.09,"text":"所以你要去統計啊"},{"start":20101.37,"end":20103.37,"text":"所以你應該要統計所以應該"},{"start":20103.37,"end":20104.37,"text":"部長"},{"start":20104.99,"end":20106.99,"text":"我覺得這個問題有意義耶"},{"start":20107.2,"end":20108.2,"text":"有意義在哪裡"},{"start":20108.2,"end":20109.2,"text":"第一"},{"start":20109.2,"end":20111.2,"text":"今天是擠牙膏式的"},{"start":20111.2,"end":20112.2,"text":"一開始跟我們講1300噸"},{"start":20112.2,"end":20113.2,"text":"後來講是3P"},{"start":20113.2,"end":20114.2,"text":"後來講5P"},{"start":20114.2,"end":20116.2,"text":"現在剛剛講了5000多公噸"},{"start":20116.2,"end":20118.2,"text":"那5000多公噸"},{"start":20118.2,"end":20120.2,"text":"如果沒有辦法理解或是掌握"},{"start":20120.2,"end":20122.2,"text":"我們的學童到底有多少"},{"start":20122.2,"end":20123.2,"text":"學童的安全"},{"start":20123.2,"end":20125.2,"text":"絕對是我們所在意的"},{"start":20125.2,"end":20126.2,"text":"如果說你在意的話"},{"start":20126.2,"end":20129.2,"text":"那你就不會現在還講不出這個數字"},{"start":20129.2,"end":20130.2,"text":"再者"},{"start":20130.72,"end":20131.72,"text":"部長"},{"start":20131.75,"end":20132.75,"text":"剛剛還有委員"},{"start":20132.75,"end":20133.75,"text":"委員昨天吃了什麼東西"},{"start":20133.75,"end":20134.75,"text":"剛剛還有委員在這邊"},{"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部長本期在講7月4號"},{"start":20255.19,"end":20257.19,"text":"這一場活動在新竹"},{"start":20257.19,"end":20259.19,"text":"是6月30號爆發"},{"start":20259.19,"end":20261.19,"text":"有品事件了"},{"start":20261.19,"end":20263.19,"text":"本來你要跟衛福部長一起去的"},{"start":20263.19,"end":20265.19,"text":"衛福部長都知道要避嫌了"},{"start":20265.19,"end":20267.19,"text":"衛福部長不去就換經濟部長"},{"start":20268.35,"end":20269.35,"text":"結果你還去"},{"start":20269.35,"end":20270.35,"text":"我要跟委員報告"},{"start":20270.35,"end":20274.35,"text":"任何一個人只要他想要知道"},{"start":20274.35,"end":20276.35,"text":"我們國家教育政策怎麼推動"},{"start":20276.35,"end":20278.35,"text":"只要我實現允許"},{"start":20278.35,"end":20280.35,"text":"我都樂意去分享"},{"start":20280.35,"end":20282.35,"text":"所以那一天是誰邀請您去的"},{"start":20283.64,"end":20286.64,"text":"是 這個台灣智庫的執行長"},{"start":20286.64,"end":20288.64,"text":"台灣智庫執行長 是"},{"start":20288.64,"end":20289.64,"text":"在哪邊"},{"start":20289.89,"end":20290.89,"text":"台灣智庫執行長"},{"start":20292.69,"end":20293.69,"text":"貴姓大名"},{"start":20294.86,"end":20295.86,"text":"莊執行長"},{"start":20296.35,"end":20298.35,"text":"這一位"},{"start":20299.67,"end":20301.67,"text":"這樣 全民很不好講"},{"start":20301.67,"end":20303.67,"text":"想要了解教育政策"},{"start":20303.67,"end":20304.67,"text":"他是"},{"start":20304.67,"end":20305.67,"text":"只要我實現允許 我都樂意"},{"start":20305.67,"end":20307.67,"text":"當天是台灣智庫執行長"},{"start":20307.67,"end":20309.67,"text":"莊敬成執行長邀請您去的"},{"start":20309.67,"end":20310.67,"text":"是"},{"start":20310.67,"end":20312.67,"text":"主動跟您電話聯絡"},{"start":20312.67,"end":20313.67,"text":"跟我的命書聯絡"},{"start":20313.67,"end":20314.67,"text":"跟您命書聯絡"},{"start":20314.67,"end":20315.67,"text":"是"},{"start":20315.67,"end":20316.67,"text":"就可以"},{"start":20316.67,"end":20318.67,"text":"來 你看一下他上面的title是寫什麼"},{"start":20320.43,"end":20321.43,"text":"他不是寫台灣智庫耶"},{"start":20322.52,"end":20325.52,"text":"他是新竹市長候選人耶"},{"start":20326.08,"end":20328.08,"text":"我任何去的行程"},{"start":20328.08,"end":20330.08,"text":"今天是一個新竹市長候選人"},{"start":20330.08,"end":20332.08,"text":"然後結果就可以直接"},{"start":20332.08,"end":20334.08,"text":"跟我們教育部的命書來聯繫"},{"start":20334.08,"end":20336.08,"text":"然後教育部長就可以親自出席"},{"start":20337.71,"end":20338.71,"text":"surprise"},{"start":20339.31,"end":20340.31,"text":"真的是"},{"start":20340.81,"end":20342.81,"text":"顛覆國人的認知"},{"start":20342.81,"end":20343.81,"text":"尤其是在"},{"start":20343.81,"end":20345.81,"text":"我們已經爆發6月30號已經爆發"},{"start":20345.81,"end":20347.81,"text":"使用有危機之後"},{"start":20347.81,"end":20349.81,"text":"大家都要釐清是說"},{"start":20349.81,"end":20350.81,"text":"到底什麼狀況"},{"start":20350.81,"end":20351.81,"text":"結果我們教育部長"},{"start":20351.81,"end":20353.81,"text":"居然還可以因為一位"},{"start":20353.81,"end":20355.81,"text":"市長候選人邀請"},{"start":20355.81,"end":20356.81,"text":"然後你就可以出啊"},{"start":20356.81,"end":20358.81,"text":"我的這個電話記錄"},{"start":20358.81,"end":20360.81,"text":"我事實上還當天打電話給市長說"},{"start":20360.81,"end":20361.81,"text":"最後啊"},{"start":20361.81,"end":20363.81,"text":"這個整個郵便一定要再重新"},{"start":20363.81,"end":20364.81,"text":"你看"},{"start":20364.81,"end":20366.81,"text":"最後啊"},{"start":20366.81,"end":20368.81,"text":"你看很多的新聞啊"},{"start":20368.81,"end":20369.81,"text":"我私底下"},{"start":20369.81,"end":20370.81,"text":"很多的新聞啊"},{"start":20370.81,"end":20372.81,"text":"都在講說這個不只是"},{"start":20372.81,"end":20374.81,"text":"休假的休息的一個時間"},{"start":20374.81,"end":20375.81,"text":"問我我"},{"start":20375.81,"end":20376.81,"text":"我到底哪裡可以去"},{"start":20376.81,"end":20378.81,"text":"很多的新聞都講是說"},{"start":20378.81,"end":20380.81,"text":"民進黨新竹市的"},{"start":20380.81,"end":20381.81,"text":"政策宣講"},{"start":20381.81,"end":20383.81,"text":"基本的職責你來挑戰我"},{"start":20383.81,"end":20384.81,"text":"我來用話講"},{"start":20384.81,"end":20385.81,"text":"我不用挑戰你"},{"start":20385.81,"end":20386.81,"text":"但是那是我的心理用"},{"start":20386.81,"end":20387.81,"text":"我下班的時間"},{"start":20387.81,"end":20389.81,"text":"來部長我們直接跟你講"},{"start":20389.81,"end":20390.81,"text":"過去嘛"},{"start":20390.81,"end":20392.81,"text":"政府時代的時候"},{"start":20392.81,"end":20394.81,"text":"怎麼對待我們的政務官的"},{"start":20394.81,"end":20395.81,"text":"過去嘛"},{"start":20395.81,"end":20397.81,"text":"政府時代的時候也有教育部長"},{"start":20397.81,"end":20400.81,"text":"他只是出席一個初選"},{"start":20400.81,"end":20401.81,"text":"場合"},{"start":20401.81,"end":20402.81,"text":"他還沒有上台分享"},{"start":20402.81,"end":20404.81,"text":"就已經被在野黨抨擊"},{"start":20404.81,"end":20407.81,"text":"並且當時的行政院長還講說"},{"start":20408.69,"end":20410.69,"text":"是自由公民的權利"},{"start":20410.69,"end":20413.69,"text":"但是法務部教育部國防部警政署"},{"start":20413.69,"end":20415.69,"text":"等單位應該保持行政中立"},{"start":20415.69,"end":20417.69,"text":"不宜輔選"},{"start":20417.69,"end":20419.69,"text":"這是當時國民黨執政時候"},{"start":20419.69,"end":20421.69,"text":"馬政府的態度"},{"start":20421.69,"end":20423.69,"text":"對於政務官的態度"},{"start":20423.69,"end":20425.69,"text":"對於法務部教育部國防部"},{"start":20425.69,"end":20428.69,"text":"跟警政署單位應該保持行政中立"},{"start":20428.69,"end":20429.69,"text":"不宜輔選"},{"start":20429.69,"end":20432.69,"text":"現在是民進黨執政之下"},{"start":20432.69,"end":20435.69,"text":"對於我們的教育的態度是這個樣子"},{"start":20435.69,"end":20436.69,"text":"尤其是"},{"start":20436.69,"end":20440.69,"text":"尤其是在食安球爆發的時候"},{"start":20440.69,"end":20442.69,"text":"還用這樣子的一個態度"},{"start":20442.69,"end":20444.69,"text":"人民會看在眼裡"},{"start":20444.69,"end":20445.69,"text":"人民看在眼裡"},{"start":20445.69,"end":20446.69,"text":"所以最後"},{"start":20447.43,"end":20448.43,"text":"不清楚"},{"start":20448.71,"end":20450.71,"text":"目前到底有多少的食用有被吃掉"},{"start":20451.58,"end":20453.58,"text":"校園裡面消化多少食用油"},{"start":20453.58,"end":20455.58,"text":"我們回收多少食用油"},{"start":20455.58,"end":20456.58,"text":"致癌的不知道"},{"start":20456.58,"end":20459.58,"text":"衛福部現在講五千多公噸"},{"start":20459.58,"end":20461.58,"text":"教育部現在還沒有辦法掌握"},{"start":20461.58,"end":20462.58,"text":"這就是現在"},{"start":20462.58,"end":20465.58,"text":"我們掌握的就是食藥署公布的所有的"},{"start":20465.58,"end":20467.58,"text":"這個不好的油"},{"start":20467.58,"end":20468.58,"text":"有問題的油"},{"start":20468.58,"end":20471.58,"text":"明天行政院長專案報告"},{"start":20471.58,"end":20472.58,"text":"本期還是希望"},{"start":20473.35,"end":20475.35,"text":"衛福部相關同仁"},{"start":20475.35,"end":20476.35,"text":"要給"},{"start":20476.64,"end":20478.64,"text":"全國國人最清楚的答案"},{"start":20478.64,"end":20482.64,"text":"尤其是我們還有一個行政院的食品安全會報"},{"start":20482.64,"end":20483.64,"text":"六個月開一次"},{"start":20483.64,"end":20485.64,"text":"必要時候可以臨時召開"},{"start":20485.64,"end":20487.64,"text":"這個部分也要考慮"},{"start":20487.64,"end":20490.64,"text":"是不是現在應該要建議行政院長"},{"start":20490.64,"end":20491.64,"text":"以行政院長之之"},{"start":20491.64,"end":20494.64,"text":"召集跨部會來做相關的會報"},{"start":20494.64,"end":20495.64,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":20498.9,"end":20499.9,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":20501.23,"end":20502.23,"text":"部長有請"},{"start":20503.08,"end":20505.08,"text":"林慶琦"},{"start":20505.08,"end":20506.08,"text":"王宏威"},{"start":20508.42,"end":20511.42,"text":"今天登記的質詢委員均已發言完畢"},{"start":20511.42,"end":20512.42,"text":"巡達結束"},{"start":20512.42,"end":20515.42,"text":"對委員質詢的要求提供相關的資料"},{"start":20515.42,"end":20519.42,"text":"為及時答覆的部分請相關機關進述以書面答覆"},{"start":20519.42,"end":20521.42,"text":"另有委員張雅玲"},{"start":20521.42,"end":20522.42,"text":"傅坤琦"},{"start":20522.42,"end":20523.42,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":20523.42,"end":20524.42,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":20524.42,"end":20525.42,"text":"林建琦"},{"start":20525.42,"end":20526.42,"text":"葛如君"},{"start":20526.42,"end":20527.42,"text":"提出書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":20527.42,"end":20529.42,"text":"並請相關器官以書面答覆"},{"start":20529.42,"end":20532.42,"text":"教育經費編列與管理法相關修正草案"},{"start":20532.42,"end":20535.42,"text":"及國民轉介教育條例草案"},{"start":20535.42,"end":20537.42,"text":"立即審查"},{"start":20537.42,"end":20538.42,"text":"現在休息"},{"start":20538.42,"end":20540.42,"text":"下午2點40分"},{"start":20540.42,"end":20546.42,"text":"繼續審查行政命令及學校公參法相關草案"},{"start":20546.42,"end":20550.42,"text":"未涉及至機關代表可以先行離席"},{"start":20550.42,"end":20551.42,"text":"以上"},{"start":20608.7,"end":20612.7,"text":"這是使用書"},{"start":22126.32,"end":22136.32,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":22131.18,"end":22133.18,"text":"現在繼續開會"},{"start":22133.85,"end":22135.85,"text":"進行審查行政命令有兩案"},{"start":22135.85,"end":22138.85,"text":"首先審查教育部含微修正高級中等以下"},{"start":22138.85,"end":22142.85,"text":"學校教師解聘不續聘停聘之前辦法"},{"start":22142.85,"end":22144.85,"text":"部分條文案"},{"start":22144.85,"end":22147.85,"text":"現在有委員提案一案請醫事人員宣讀"},{"start":22149.93,"end":22150.93,"text":"提案"},{"start":22150.93,"end":22156.93,"text":"教育部於2015年1月12日完成高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘後"},{"start":22156.93,"end":22159.93,"text":"之前辦法部分條文修正案"},{"start":22159.93,"end":22163.93,"text":"經第五會起教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議"},{"start":22163.93,"end":22169.93,"text":"能認為有待修正之處請教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":22169.93,"end":22172.93,"text":"依立法院職權刑事法第62條規定"},{"start":22172.93,"end":22174.93,"text":"提報立法院院會決議後"},{"start":22175.81,"end":22177.81,"text":"通知教育部更正該辦法"},{"start":22177.81,"end":22179.81,"text":"提案人羅田偉、岳元之、蔡村仇"},{"start":22181.04,"end":22183.04,"text":"羅志強宣讀完畢"},{"start":22183.17,"end":22183.67,"text":"好"},{"start":22184.37,"end":22186.37,"text":"請"},{"start":22186.23,"end":22187.23,"text":"提案委員"},{"start":22188.01,"end":22189.01,"text":"現場"},{"start":22189.28,"end":22191.28,"text":"有沒有什麼要表示意見的"},{"start":22192.87,"end":22194.87,"text":"請機關代表表示意見"},{"start":22219.81,"end":22221.81,"text":"好,謝謝召委"},{"start":22221.81,"end":22225.81,"text":"那召委所提的這一個"},{"start":22225.81,"end":22228.81,"text":"按照立院職權刑事法"},{"start":22228.81,"end":22229.81,"text":"好"},{"start":22230.24,"end":22234.24,"text":"來處理這些因更正的這個方向"},{"start":22234.24,"end":22238.24,"text":"那早上也有委員提到說"},{"start":22238.24,"end":22242.24,"text":"為了讓教育部在做更正的時候"},{"start":22242.24,"end":22244.24,"text":"比較聚焦"},{"start":22244.24,"end":22246.24,"text":"不會更正了之後"},{"start":22246.24,"end":22250.24,"text":"又沒有辦法滿足委員這邊的方向的指點"},{"start":22250.24,"end":22255.24,"text":"是不是建請按照早上委員的建議"},{"start":22255.24,"end":22257.24,"text":"是不是就更正的部分"},{"start":22257.24,"end":22259.24,"text":"直接給我們做指導"},{"start":22259.24,"end":22262.24,"text":"這樣在整體方向的共識上"},{"start":22262.24,"end":22263.24,"text":"比較好處置"},{"start":22263.24,"end":22265.24,"text":"以上補充報告完畢"},{"start":22273.38,"end":22275.38,"text":"不好意思,所以請問"},{"start":22276.07,"end":22278.07,"text":"機關就現在的文字部分"},{"start":22283.31,"end":22284.31,"text":"要講"},{"start":22286.19,"end":22288.19,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":22288.19,"end":22291.19,"text":"因為這一次兩個辦法的修正裡頭"},{"start":22291.19,"end":22294.19,"text":"有關這個解聘辦法的部分"},{"start":22294.19,"end":22297.19,"text":"有修正的重點有七個部分"},{"start":22297.19,"end":22299.19,"text":"就如我們書面報告所提到的"},{"start":22299.19,"end":22303.19,"text":"那其中有一些像"},{"start":22303.19,"end":22306.19,"text":"有一些修正的一個重點"},{"start":22306.19,"end":22308.19,"text":"其實現在都已經在執行"},{"start":22308.19,"end":22310.19,"text":"而且是有成效的"},{"start":22310.19,"end":22315.19,"text":"是不是能夠請這個"},{"start":22315.19,"end":22316.19,"text":"在提案的時候"},{"start":22316.19,"end":22318.19,"text":"我們稍微做一點修正"},{"start":22318.19,"end":22319.19,"text":"就是"},{"start":22319.19,"end":22321.19,"text":"請給我一個修正的文字"},{"start":22321.19,"end":22323.19,"text":"因為早上好像"},{"start":22323.19,"end":22326.19,"text":"早上部長在答詢的時候"},{"start":22326.19,"end":22327.19,"text":"也提到說"},{"start":22327.19,"end":22331.19,"text":"在我們全國教育局局長會議的時候"},{"start":22331.19,"end":22333.19,"text":"有提到授權地方"},{"start":22333.19,"end":22338.19,"text":"對於調和或調處機制的一個架構的建議"},{"start":22338.19,"end":22340.19,"text":"我想這個部分"},{"start":22340.19,"end":22342.19,"text":"所以在一字一條的部分"},{"start":22342.19,"end":22344.19,"text":"我們似乎可以再做一些思考"},{"start":22344.19,"end":22348.19,"text":"就由我們教育部來架構整個"},{"start":22348.19,"end":22351.19,"text":"讓他能夠做好這個預防的一個措施"},{"start":22351.19,"end":22356.19,"text":"我想這個是委員們可以來思考的"},{"start":22356.19,"end":22357.19,"text":"往這個方向"},{"start":22357.19,"end":22358.19,"text":"所以不好意思"},{"start":22358.19,"end":22360.19,"text":"因為依照文字上面寫說"},{"start":22360.19,"end":22363.19,"text":"請教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":22364.17,"end":22366.17,"text":"你的方法你去修正"},{"start":22366.17,"end":22370.17,"text":"就不要全部都需要更正"},{"start":22370.17,"end":22373.17,"text":"因為有一些部分已經都"},{"start":22373.17,"end":22375.17,"text":"修正重點都已經在執行"},{"start":22375.17,"end":22377.17,"text":"而且有效率了"},{"start":22377.17,"end":22380.17,"text":"所以是不是就那個部分同意備查"},{"start":22380.17,"end":22382.17,"text":"就是不"},{"start":22382.87,"end":22384.87,"text":"沒有爭議的部分"},{"start":22384.87,"end":22385.87,"text":"我們就同意備查"},{"start":22385.87,"end":22386.87,"text":"然後有爭議的部分"},{"start":22386.87,"end":22388.87,"text":"我們退回教育部"},{"start":22388.87,"end":22390.87,"text":"因為我們沒辦法逐條"},{"start":22390.87,"end":22392.87,"text":"我們就是整個備查"},{"start":22392.87,"end":22395.87,"text":"跟整個退回要求重新訂正"},{"start":22395.87,"end":22397.87,"text":"再送院備查"},{"start":22397.87,"end":22398.87,"text":"所以基本上的話"},{"start":22398.87,"end":22400.87,"text":"沒有所謂的保留"},{"start":22402.47,"end":22403.47,"text":"部分條文"},{"start":22403.47,"end":22406.47,"text":"跟召委報告好像法務部這邊"},{"start":22406.47,"end":22408.47,"text":"好像有給我們一個以前"},{"start":22408.47,"end":22410.47,"text":"有這樣的一個潛力的樣子"},{"start":22410.47,"end":22412.47,"text":"是不是能夠請法務部這邊提供"},{"start":22412.47,"end":22414.47,"text":"歡迎提出"},{"start":22414.47,"end":22416.47,"text":"請問是汪南軍參事嗎"},{"start":22416.94,"end":22418.94,"text":"好"},{"start":22420.08,"end":22421.08,"text":"好"},{"start":22421.9,"end":22423.9,"text":"是跟委員報告"},{"start":22423.9,"end":22424.9,"text":"跟召委報告"},{"start":22424.9,"end":22425.9,"text":"有關這一部分"},{"start":22425.9,"end":22429.9,"text":"基本上我們是看這個"},{"start":22429.9,"end":22430.9,"text":"立法院職權刑事法"},{"start":22430.9,"end":22432.9,"text":"六十二條的第一項規定"},{"start":22432.9,"end":22435.9,"text":"似乎是行政命令交付委員會審查後"},{"start":22435.9,"end":22437.9,"text":"是要提報院會議決"},{"start":22437.9,"end":22439.9,"text":"那如果要退回的話"},{"start":22439.9,"end":22440.9,"text":"就是我們俗稱退回"},{"start":22440.9,"end":22442.9,"text":"就是通資源訂班機關更正費紙的話"},{"start":22442.9,"end":22444.9,"text":"還是要有一些要件"},{"start":22444.9,"end":22446.9,"text":"就是違反或者是有"},{"start":22446.9,"end":22448.9,"text":"變更或抵觸法律的狀況下"},{"start":22448.9,"end":22449.9,"text":"有與院母法的授權範圍"},{"start":22449.9,"end":22451.9,"text":"或者是會變更法律效果"},{"start":22451.9,"end":22455.9,"text":"那可能還是有比較有具體的事項"},{"start":22456.63,"end":22457.63,"text":"可以"},{"start":22458.35,"end":22460.35,"text":"就這部分能退回的話"},{"start":22460.35,"end":22462.35,"text":"這樣子讓原訂班機關"},{"start":22462.35,"end":22463.35,"text":"可以做比較好的修正"},{"start":22464.68,"end":22465.18,"text":"以上"},{"start":22465.84,"end":22466.84,"text":"請陳委員"},{"start":22466.84,"end":22467.84,"text":"謝召委喔"},{"start":22467.84,"end":22468.84,"text":"您的這個提案啊"},{"start":22468.84,"end":22470.84,"text":"其實本席認為說"},{"start":22470.84,"end":22472.84,"text":"現在的校事會議"},{"start":22472.84,"end":22474.84,"text":"辦法目前的這個程序分流"},{"start":22474.84,"end":22476.84,"text":"跟審議的機制呢"},{"start":22476.84,"end":22479.84,"text":"如果以這個教師法第二十九條喔"},{"start":22479.84,"end":22481.84,"text":"明確授權有訂立進去範圍"},{"start":22481.84,"end":22484.84,"text":"其實沒有逾越這個母法授權的範圍"},{"start":22484.84,"end":22485.84,"text":"那校事會議呢"},{"start":22485.84,"end":22487.84,"text":"因為涉及的是教師學生"},{"start":22487.84,"end":22489.84,"text":"以及家長三方的權益喔"},{"start":22489.84,"end":22492.84,"text":"那民進黨團我們在二十九號"},{"start":22492.84,"end":22494.84,"text":"我們有提出一個臨時提案喔"},{"start":22494.84,"end":22497.84,"text":"是有要求教育部在九月底之前"},{"start":22497.84,"end":22499.84,"text":"針對第三方調查權等"},{"start":22499.84,"end":22502.84,"text":"來這個機制來進行研議"},{"start":22502.84,"end":22503.84,"text":"這是第一條喔"},{"start":22503.84,"end":22504.84,"text":"那第二個部分呢"},{"start":22504.84,"end":22506.84,"text":"就是教育部應該跟"},{"start":22506.84,"end":22508.84,"text":"就是就這個保障教師"},{"start":22510.24,"end":22513.24,"text":"的部分依法喔管教權"},{"start":22513.24,"end":22515.24,"text":"依管教權"},{"start":22515.24,"end":22518.24,"text":"來建立防濫數及"},{"start":22518.24,"end":22520.24,"text":"這個完善相對的機制"},{"start":22520.24,"end":22521.24,"text":"我意思就是說"},{"start":22521.24,"end":22522.24,"text":"我們在二十九號"},{"start":22522.24,"end":22523.24,"text":"我們有提這個臨題喔"},{"start":22523.24,"end":22525.24,"text":"就是希望教育部可以持續"},{"start":22525.24,"end":22527.24,"text":"來蒐集各方的意見"},{"start":22527.24,"end":22529.24,"text":"那最為就是這個校事會議"},{"start":22529.24,"end":22531.24,"text":"這個辦法檢討的依據"},{"start":22531.24,"end":22533.24,"text":"那其實您在提案裡面"},{"start":22533.24,"end":22535.24,"text":"其實您沒有很明確的指出說"},{"start":22535.24,"end":22537.24,"text":"他們有在哪一個"},{"start":22537.24,"end":22540.24,"text":"這個辦法有去違反"},{"start":22540.95,"end":22543.95,"text":"法律獲釋與願無法授權這個範圍"},{"start":22543.95,"end":22544.95,"text":"所以我想你這樣子"},{"start":22544.95,"end":22546.95,"text":"如果沒有很實質的"},{"start":22546.95,"end":22549.95,"text":"那你要讓教育部來修正的部分"},{"start":22549.95,"end":22551.95,"text":"其實並沒有"},{"start":22554.22,"end":22555.22,"text":"所以如果有問題的話"},{"start":22555.22,"end":22557.22,"text":"請委員提出你的辦法"},{"start":22557.22,"end":22559.22,"text":"我的意思是說我們在7月"},{"start":22561.12,"end":22563.12,"text":"6月29號的時候就提臨題"},{"start":22563.12,"end":22566.12,"text":"就是希望說教育部在9月底之前"},{"start":22566.12,"end":22569.12,"text":"他們要做這個相關的依據的這個"},{"start":22569.12,"end":22572.12,"text":"期程規劃以及這個整個辦法的"},{"start":22572.12,"end":22575.12,"text":"修正的這個規劃"},{"start":22575.12,"end":22577.12,"text":"那是不是也等他們在"},{"start":22577.52,"end":22579.52,"text":"蒐集相關的意見"},{"start":22579.52,"end":22582.52,"text":"那以這個臨題的這個當初的這個結論就是說"},{"start":22582.52,"end":22583.52,"text":"9月底"},{"start":22583.94,"end":22585.94,"text":"之前提出"},{"start":22585.94,"end":22587.94,"text":"然後我們再來根據這個部分大家來討論"},{"start":22587.94,"end":22589.94,"text":"以上謝謝主席"},{"start":22590.5,"end":22593.5,"text":"好那請問教育部有要提出你的文字修正嗎"},{"start":22604.98,"end":22606.98,"text":"好我們現場休息五分鐘"},{"start":23407.34,"end":23409.34,"text":"好"},{"start":23409.48,"end":23411.48,"text":"現場"},{"start":23410.83,"end":23413.83,"text":"我們繼續來處理"},{"start":23414.55,"end":23415.55,"text":"委員提案第一案"},{"start":23417.03,"end":23419.03,"text":"剛剛"},{"start":23418.48,"end":23421.48,"text":"提案的委員以及主管機關對說明"},{"start":23422.32,"end":23424.32,"text":"我們現在要來處理"},{"start":23424.96,"end":23426.96,"text":"本案是否照案通過"},{"start":23428.62,"end":23429.62,"text":"請問有意義"},{"start":23430.31,"end":23432.31,"text":"主席我們還是要發言"},{"start":23432.99,"end":23434.99,"text":"可不可以先見請先不要處理"},{"start":23434.99,"end":23437.99,"text":"我們先持續討論到因為這個案子本身現在提案"},{"start":23437.99,"end":23439.99,"text":"就有問題啊"},{"start":23441.02,"end":23444.02,"text":"所以這不是有沒有意義的問題是這個提案本身就有問題"},{"start":23445.93,"end":23446.93,"text":"那除非我"},{"start":23446.93,"end":23451.93,"text":"張偉你可以指出他們現在送到立法院來備查的這個修法內容"},{"start":23451.93,"end":23453.93,"text":"你覺得哪裡是有違反魔法的"},{"start":23453.93,"end":23456.93,"text":"早上所有的委員都已經說過如果他沒有違反魔法"},{"start":23456.93,"end":23458.93,"text":"他就只是送立法院備查"},{"start":23458.93,"end":23461.93,"text":"那我們為什麼要針對這個沒有違反魔法的"},{"start":23461.93,"end":23463.93,"text":"教育部的提案"},{"start":23463.93,"end":23466.93,"text":"然後現在是羅庭偉張偉說要把他撤回"},{"start":23466.93,"end":23468.93,"text":"叫他們重新更正"},{"start":23468.93,"end":23471.93,"text":"那我們覺得你的這個提案本身就是有問題的"},{"start":23471.93,"end":23473.93,"text":"那我們為什麼要針對有問題的提案來處理呢"},{"start":23478.43,"end":23479.43,"text":"還有委員有意見嗎"},{"start":23492.14,"end":23493.14,"text":"因為很明顯喔"},{"start":23493.14,"end":23498.14,"text":"訂定辦法就是行政機關依法有據的權責啦"},{"start":23498.64,"end":23500.64,"text":"訂定辦法就是行政機關的權責"},{"start":23500.64,"end":23503.64,"text":"那如果今天你立法院要求要退回"},{"start":23503.64,"end":23506.64,"text":"或要求這個教育部要修正這個相關辦法"},{"start":23506.64,"end":23509.64,"text":"那就對我覺得還是要問那依據是什麼"},{"start":23509.64,"end":23513.64,"text":"他違反了哪個魔法的依據"},{"start":23513.64,"end":23515.64,"text":"那目的又是什麼"},{"start":23515.64,"end":23518.64,"text":"那所以我覺得應該是有義務"},{"start":23518.64,"end":23520.64,"text":"就是說張偉你排了這個案"},{"start":23520.64,"end":23523.64,"text":"那你應該有義務要向"},{"start":23524.46,"end":23527.46,"text":"教育部也要向全國的國人說明清楚啊"},{"start":23527.46,"end":23532.46,"text":"那如果根據立法院職權行使法第62條"},{"start":23532.46,"end":23538.46,"text":"行政命令經審查後發現有違反變更或抵觸法律者"},{"start":23538.46,"end":23543.46,"text":"或因以法律規定事項而以命令訂知者"},{"start":23543.46,"end":23550.46,"text":"因提報院會經議決後通知原訂班知機關更正或廢止之"},{"start":23551.07,"end":23555.07,"text":"所以請問還是要請教提案委員跟黨團"},{"start":23555.07,"end":23559.07,"text":"就是說你們今天審查這個相關辦法"},{"start":23559.07,"end":23562.07,"text":"到底哪個字抵觸了法律"},{"start":23562.07,"end":23564.07,"text":"那如果你沒有辦法清楚點出來"},{"start":23564.07,"end":23566.07,"text":"那我們今天討論的標的到底是什麼"},{"start":23566.07,"end":23570.07,"text":"那我們在這裡討論這件事情的目的到底是什麼"},{"start":23570.07,"end":23574.07,"text":"那還是說其實在野黨實際上就是"},{"start":23574.07,"end":23578.07,"text":"只要求要廢除消失會議"},{"start":23578.34,"end":23582.34,"text":"那如果是這樣那也請在野黨要負責任的"},{"start":23582.34,"end":23585.34,"text":"跟全國的家長跟學生大聲說出來"},{"start":23585.34,"end":23587.34,"text":"你要廢除消失會議"},{"start":23587.34,"end":23588.34,"text":"好以上"},{"start":23590.15,"end":23592.15,"text":"好跟委員特別報告剛剛的提案"},{"start":23592.15,"end":23596.15,"text":"很清楚的寫請教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":23600.72,"end":23601.72,"text":"主席謝謝"},{"start":23601.72,"end":23602.72,"text":"我先說一下"},{"start":23602.72,"end":23606.72,"text":"你要叫教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":23606.72,"end":23608.72,"text":"看起來好像很有道理"},{"start":23608.72,"end":23610.72,"text":"就好像有一個小孩"},{"start":23610.72,"end":23612.72,"text":"他教了他的作業部給老師"},{"start":23612.72,"end":23614.72,"text":"老師看都不看"},{"start":23614.72,"end":23617.72,"text":"也不知道他是不是有寫錯字或是造錯句子"},{"start":23617.72,"end":23620.72,"text":"就退回告訴他重寫"},{"start":23620.72,"end":23622.72,"text":"問題是老師你改都沒有改"},{"start":23622.72,"end":23623.72,"text":"你就叫我退回去重寫"},{"start":23623.72,"end":23624.72,"text":"這不是很莫名其妙嗎"},{"start":23624.72,"end":23628.72,"text":"現在教育部送到立法院備查的內容"},{"start":23628.72,"end":23630.72,"text":"我不確定委員你看了沒有"},{"start":23630.72,"end":23631.72,"text":"羅庭瑋教委你看了沒"},{"start":23631.72,"end":23634.72,"text":"如果你看了之後你認為他有哪一條的寫法"},{"start":23634.72,"end":23636.72,"text":"他有違反教師法的母法"},{"start":23636.72,"end":23638.72,"text":"那你找出錯誤了"},{"start":23638.72,"end":23639.72,"text":"你用紅筆把它圈起來"},{"start":23639.72,"end":23641.72,"text":"退回去叫教育部修改"},{"start":23641.72,"end":23644.72,"text":"我認為今天所有坐在這裡的民進黨委員都不會有意見"},{"start":23644.72,"end":23646.72,"text":"可是你現在是連改都不改"},{"start":23646.72,"end":23647.72,"text":"紅筆連圈都沒有圈"},{"start":23647.72,"end":23649.72,"text":"你就退回叫教育部重改"},{"start":23649.72,"end":23651.72,"text":"那我不知道教育部退回去他要改什麼"},{"start":23651.72,"end":23653.72,"text":"除非就像剛剛李怡錦委員說的"},{"start":23653.72,"end":23656.72,"text":"如果國民黨委員的認為就是全面廢除"},{"start":23656.72,"end":23658.72,"text":"而且是立刻全面廢除"},{"start":23658.72,"end":23659.72,"text":"校事會議"},{"start":23659.72,"end":23661.72,"text":"那就請教委你勇敢講出來"},{"start":23661.72,"end":23664.72,"text":"你對全國的家長對全國的學生交代"},{"start":23664.72,"end":23666.72,"text":"那你現在沒有講出來就叫人家退回去"},{"start":23666.72,"end":23667.72,"text":"那請問他要改什麼"},{"start":23667.72,"end":23669.72,"text":"他改了十遍二十遍你都不會滿意"},{"start":23669.72,"end":23672.72,"text":"因為你沒有告訴他你覺得他錯在哪裡"},{"start":23672.72,"end":23675.72,"text":"再不用講的是你今天是立法委員"},{"start":23675.72,"end":23678.72,"text":"他跟母法母法是什麼是教師法"},{"start":23678.72,"end":23681.72,"text":"校事會議是根據教師法當年修法而來的"},{"start":23681.72,"end":23683.72,"text":"你也沒有告訴他他到底違反了教師法什麼"},{"start":23683.72,"end":23685.72,"text":"你現在退回去他到底要改什麼"},{"start":23694.46,"end":23696.46,"text":"好我們有請羅志祥委員發言"},{"start":23698.64,"end":23702.64,"text":"首先按照我們立法院過去的那個往例"},{"start":23702.64,"end":23706.64,"text":"那關於這審查行政命令的過程當中"},{"start":23706.64,"end":23713.64,"text":"有時候處理是以逾越母法等這些理由來退回"},{"start":23713.64,"end":23717.64,"text":"但也有曾經在九十五年的時候"},{"start":23717.64,"end":23723.64,"text":"這個針對國民小學及國民中學班級編制及教職員"},{"start":23723.64,"end":23725.64,"text":"而編制準則"},{"start":23725.64,"end":23728.64,"text":"那人為以九十四年11月24日"},{"start":23728.64,"end":23731.64,"text":"本委員會決議之理由確實修正"},{"start":23731.64,"end":23734.64,"text":"罔顧民意及實際狀況故意退回"},{"start":23734.64,"end":23739.64,"text":"所以他也有不是從今天直接你們說的所謂的"},{"start":23739.64,"end":23744.64,"text":"違反法規那個逾越母法的這個部分來做退回"},{"start":23744.64,"end":23747.64,"text":"那是以所謂的罔顧民意跟實際狀況"},{"start":23747.64,"end":23751.64,"text":"但我舉這個例子就是說基本上都有成立啦"},{"start":23751.64,"end":23752.64,"text":"可是不管怎麼說"},{"start":23752.64,"end":23756.64,"text":"既然這個召委這邊有這個提案"},{"start":23756.64,"end":23759.64,"text":"那這個提案教育部也說明了嘛"},{"start":23759.64,"end":23761.64,"text":"說明了以後"},{"start":23761.64,"end":23767.64,"text":"這個召委覺得這邊這個提案人覺得基本上他不能接受"},{"start":23767.64,"end":23769.64,"text":"他希望還是按照他的提案來做"},{"start":23769.64,"end":23772.64,"text":"那回到我們今天的議事程序的話"},{"start":23772.64,"end":23774.64,"text":"那既然沒有辦法達成共識"},{"start":23774.64,"end":23777.64,"text":"那就請召委就直接就處理了嘛"},{"start":23777.64,"end":23779.64,"text":"那民進黨立委也表達意見了"},{"start":23779.64,"end":23783.64,"text":"那這個提案民進黨立委也可以表達反對啊"},{"start":23783.64,"end":23786.64,"text":"那就可以立刻做意識上的處理以上"},{"start":23787.25,"end":23789.25,"text":"好 首先先回應一下委員"},{"start":23789.25,"end":23793.25,"text":"剛剛委員說我們連內文都沒有看"},{"start":23793.25,"end":23798.25,"text":"都沒有任何的舉出錯誤就要求退回"},{"start":23798.25,"end":23800.25,"text":"我想我們已經辦過公聽會"},{"start":23800.25,"end":23806.25,"text":"那也多次的質詢所有的委員在質詢的過程也都提出了建言"},{"start":23806.25,"end":23810.25,"text":"包括調和機制 包括許多的教師權益"},{"start":23810.25,"end":23814.25,"text":"我想教育部應該比誰都更清楚他錯在哪裡"},{"start":23814.25,"end":23819.25,"text":"那今天早上也特別邀請了第一線的教師來到現場講解"},{"start":23819.25,"end":23825.25,"text":"教師會議在執行的過程造成老師的負擔 濫述"},{"start":23825.25,"end":23828.25,"text":"也希望能夠更明確的去修改相關的辦法"},{"start":23828.25,"end":23831.25,"text":"來接住所有第一線的老師"},{"start":23831.25,"end":23834.25,"text":"所以我們再提出這第一案"},{"start":23834.25,"end":23836.25,"text":"我們希望部分條文修正案"},{"start":23836.25,"end":23839.25,"text":"經第五期會期的教育文化委員會第17次"},{"start":23839.25,"end":23843.25,"text":"全體委員會議認為有待修正之處"},{"start":23843.25,"end":23846.25,"text":"請教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":23846.25,"end":23852.25,"text":"依立法院職權新司法62條提報立法院院會決議"},{"start":23852.25,"end":23855.25,"text":"通知教育部更正該辦法"},{"start":23855.25,"end":23857.25,"text":"我的提案非常清楚簡單明瞭"},{"start":23857.25,"end":23860.25,"text":"也希望直接來處理 以上"},{"start":23860.25,"end":23863.25,"text":"那如果有委員有意見的話"},{"start":23863.25,"end":23865.25,"text":"也希望委員提出自己的版本"},{"start":23865.25,"end":23868.25,"text":"再來相互探討"},{"start":23868.25,"end":23870.25,"text":"然後如果沒有的話"},{"start":23870.25,"end":23873.25,"text":"我們就待會要直接進行處理這一個提案了"},{"start":23873.25,"end":23874.25,"text":"有請哲學老委員"},{"start":23875.78,"end":23876.78,"text":"舒希"},{"start":23876.78,"end":23878.78,"text":"我想我剛剛已經有發言過"},{"start":23878.78,"end":23880.78,"text":"但是我覺得還是要再講一下"},{"start":23880.78,"end":23881.78,"text":"您有說你的版本裡面"},{"start":23881.78,"end":23883.78,"text":"你覺得說教育部就是要修正"},{"start":23883.78,"end":23884.78,"text":"但是我很想知道說"},{"start":23884.78,"end":23886.78,"text":"您是對這個辦法裡面的哪一條"},{"start":23886.78,"end":23889.78,"text":"哪一款哪一項您覺得需要修正"},{"start":23889.78,"end":23891.78,"text":"或者說您剛剛講的就是防濫數的機制"},{"start":23891.78,"end":23893.78,"text":"它不夠完備的話"},{"start":23893.78,"end":23895.78,"text":"是不是也可以在你的提案裡面寫出來"},{"start":23895.78,"end":23898.78,"text":"您覺得說是在這個辦法裡面的防濫數機制"},{"start":23898.78,"end":23900.78,"text":"不夠完備應該再怎麼改善"},{"start":23900.78,"end":23902.78,"text":"是具體的點出來說"},{"start":23902.78,"end":23903.78,"text":"但是我希望教育部知道說"},{"start":23903.78,"end":23905.78,"text":"它有哪裡不夠精進"},{"start":23905.78,"end":23907.78,"text":"哪裡需要再更完備一點"},{"start":23907.78,"end":23911.78,"text":"這個部分我希望說主席您可以很明確的表達"},{"start":23911.78,"end":23913.78,"text":"因為其實我們自己身在教務"},{"start":23913.78,"end":23914.78,"text":"我們也非常關心"},{"start":23914.78,"end":23917.78,"text":"這個關乎到教師關於在學生關到家長"},{"start":23917.78,"end":23918.78,"text":"關到整個學校"},{"start":23918.78,"end":23920.78,"text":"關整個教育體制的運作"},{"start":23920.78,"end":23921.78,"text":"我們都很希望說"},{"start":23921.78,"end":23925.78,"text":"它是一個好的辦法協助到各個需要協助的對象"},{"start":23925.78,"end":23927.78,"text":"但是今天您提的這個案子"},{"start":23927.78,"end":23929.78,"text":"我真的理解不出來就是說"},{"start":23929.78,"end":23932.78,"text":"您希望教育部它本身它去修正的在哪一點"},{"start":23932.78,"end":23934.78,"text":"到底是哪一條哪一款哪一項"},{"start":23934.78,"end":23936.78,"text":"或者是說哪一個方式"},{"start":23936.78,"end":23939.78,"text":"哪一個方法在使用的時候"},{"start":23939.78,"end":23941.78,"text":"沒有那麼貼近現場"},{"start":23941.78,"end":23943.78,"text":"是不是可以很具體的指出來"},{"start":23943.78,"end":23944.78,"text":"讓教育部他們去思考"},{"start":23944.78,"end":23948.78,"text":"並且去依著他們所收集到的意見"},{"start":23948.78,"end":23951.78,"text":"大家對這個來仔細的討論"},{"start":23951.78,"end":23955.78,"text":"對教育部才是一個具體的建議"},{"start":23955.78,"end":23958.78,"text":"一個見解還有一個做法的方向"},{"start":23958.78,"end":23960.78,"text":"那您這樣說請教育部修正"},{"start":23960.78,"end":23963.78,"text":"那到底它是要修正哪裡"},{"start":23963.78,"end":23964.78,"text":"全部修正嗎"},{"start":23965.99,"end":23967.99,"text":"每一條嗎每一款嗎"},{"start":23967.99,"end":23969.99,"text":"這個部分我現在請主席這邊"},{"start":23969.99,"end":23972.99,"text":"您再理解一下您自己的體驗"},{"start":23972.99,"end":23974.99,"text":"給出來的訊息到底是什麼以上"},{"start":23976.12,"end":23978.12,"text":"好再一次回答所有的委員"},{"start":23978.12,"end":23980.12,"text":"我們已經辦過公聽會了"},{"start":23980.12,"end":23982.12,"text":"在公聽會所有的教師代表"},{"start":23982.12,"end":23986.12,"text":"都非常清楚明確指出相關的教師會議辦法"},{"start":23986.12,"end":23988.12,"text":"有明確的疏失"},{"start":23988.12,"end":23990.12,"text":"罔顧民意"},{"start":23990.12,"end":23993.12,"text":"也必須要相關的修正"},{"start":23993.12,"end":23996.12,"text":"那我們也透過好幾次的質詢"},{"start":23996.12,"end":23998.12,"text":"所有的委員給予建議"},{"start":23998.12,"end":24003.12,"text":"今天早上也邀請了我們第一線的教師來到現場講述"},{"start":24003.12,"end":24006.12,"text":"我們在第一線教學過程的困難"},{"start":24006.12,"end":24008.12,"text":"還有教師會議的濫述"},{"start":24008.12,"end":24014.12,"text":"甚至多起我們很多教育現場的新聞"},{"start":24015.28,"end":24019.28,"text":"都可以讓教育部直接參考了解他們需要哪裡改善"},{"start":24020.36,"end":24023.36,"text":"那我想教育部如果還不知道自己錯在哪裡"},{"start":24023.72,"end":24024.72,"text":"還需要"},{"start":24025.11,"end":24027.11,"text":"我們來給他指點"},{"start":24027.11,"end":24029.11,"text":"那我想之前的質詢"},{"start":24029.24,"end":24031.24,"text":"我們就先到這裡告一段落"},{"start":24031.24,"end":24032.24,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":24030.67,"end":24032.67,"text":"早上的老師現場來說明"},{"start":24033.95,"end":24035.95,"text":"是不是都變成"},{"start":24036.23,"end":24037.23,"text":"都完全無效"},{"start":24037.91,"end":24040.91,"text":"我想這個部分在我的提案已經很清楚說明"},{"start":24040.91,"end":24044.91,"text":"我們希望依照立法委員資訊新司法第62條"},{"start":24044.91,"end":24047.91,"text":"請教育部修正以後"},{"start":24047.91,"end":24049.91,"text":"再送來立法院繼續備查"},{"start":24051.01,"end":24052.01,"text":"以上"},{"start":24055.14,"end":24057.14,"text":"我們就依順序吧"},{"start":24057.14,"end":24059.14,"text":"郭一行委員陳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員"},{"start":24062.11,"end":24064.11,"text":"我還是要附議一下"},{"start":24064.11,"end":24067.11,"text":"剛剛其實我們的委員所提出來的"},{"start":24067.11,"end":24070.11,"text":"到底要教育部回去修正什麼"},{"start":24070.11,"end":24074.11,"text":"那是修正哪一條你覺得有違反法律"},{"start":24074.11,"end":24079.11,"text":"有哪一條法規的命令是違反這個行政權"},{"start":24079.11,"end":24083.11,"text":"然後在哪一條需要有確實的一個修正"},{"start":24083.11,"end":24085.11,"text":"再送回來我們的立法院備查"},{"start":24085.11,"end":24087.11,"text":"到底是哪一條"},{"start":24087.11,"end":24089.11,"text":"所以如果沒有具體寫出來的話"},{"start":24089.11,"end":24092.11,"text":"那現在到底我們是要修正哪一個部分"},{"start":24092.11,"end":24095.11,"text":"還是對內容文字上的修正"},{"start":24095.11,"end":24100.11,"text":"還是對於所謂的辦法上面的行使上的一個修正"},{"start":24100.11,"end":24103.11,"text":"其實我們現在從光這一個提案當中"},{"start":24103.11,"end":24105.11,"text":"其實我們是完全看不出來"},{"start":24105.11,"end":24111.11,"text":"可不可以再請這個提案的委員再更仔細的來敘述一下"},{"start":24111.11,"end":24112.11,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":24116.36,"end":24118.36,"text":"有舉手的委員請"},{"start":24118.68,"end":24119.68,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":24122.4,"end":24125.4,"text":"把羅廷瑋的委員的提案念一遍"},{"start":24125.77,"end":24126.77,"text":"提案"},{"start":24147.29,"end":24153.29,"text":"請教育部1立院職權行使法第62條規定修正後"},{"start":24155.27,"end":24162.27,"text":"再送立法院備查提報立法院議員會議決後通知教育部更正該辦法"},{"start":24162.27,"end":24167.27,"text":"提案人羅廷瑋 連署人葉元之 蔡川仇 還有羅志強"},{"start":24167.42,"end":24169.42,"text":"這個是羅廷瑋委員你的提案"},{"start":24169.42,"end":24174.42,"text":"剛剛你也自己一直說立法院職權行使法第62條"},{"start":24174.42,"end":24176.42,"text":"62條是怎麼寫的呢"},{"start":24176.42,"end":24182.42,"text":"他說行政命令經過審查之後發現有違反 變更或抵觸法律者"},{"start":24182.42,"end":24186.42,"text":"或應該以法律規定的事項而以命令定之者"},{"start":24186.42,"end":24194.42,"text":"應提報院會 經議決後通知原訂班之機關更正或廢止之"},{"start":24194.77,"end":24198.77,"text":"所以我現在看不出來在羅委員的提案裡面"},{"start":24198.77,"end":24203.77,"text":"一 完全沒有明白的書寫並且揭示"},{"start":24203.77,"end":24207.77,"text":"到底教育部現在送來的這個草案裡頭"},{"start":24207.77,"end":24213.77,"text":"有哪一條 哪一個字 哪一個版本 有違反 變更或抵觸法律"},{"start":24213.77,"end":24219.77,"text":"所以我認為提案委員跟連署的委員並沒有負責任的對國人交代"},{"start":24219.77,"end":24223.77,"text":"到底你們所認為違反命令的部分是哪一個部分"},{"start":24223.77,"end":24230.77,"text":"再來我要說他必須要提報院會是因提報院會經議決後"},{"start":24230.77,"end":24233.77,"text":"所以也不是我們委員會今天可以處理的"},{"start":24234.89,"end":24235.89,"text":"還有"},{"start":24236.02,"end":24239.02,"text":"你現在所寫的所謂待修正之處"},{"start":24239.02,"end":24241.02,"text":"其實跟法規要件也不合"},{"start":24241.02,"end":24244.02,"text":"接下來我要再次提醒提案的委員"},{"start":24244.02,"end":24246.02,"text":"如果您所認為的不足"},{"start":24246.02,"end":24251.02,"text":"如果到時候跟教育部所認為的還要再修正的又不一樣"},{"start":24251.02,"end":24254.02,"text":"那是不是又要再一次在委員會再處理這個事情"},{"start":24254.02,"end":24260.02,"text":"也就是如果委員你真的認為哪裡有所謂的違反抵觸的魔法"},{"start":24260.02,"end":24262.02,"text":"你應該要明白具體的指出"},{"start":24263.02,"end":24268.02,"text":"所以我完全看不出來"},{"start":24268.02,"end":24271.02,"text":"接下來是如果你真的認為有錯"},{"start":24271.02,"end":24275.02,"text":"那就請你在這個提案裡面把錯的地方寫出來"},{"start":24275.02,"end":24279.02,"text":"最後我要提醒辦過公聽會辦過質詢"},{"start":24279.02,"end":24285.02,"text":"邀請現場老師來說明這些人沒有義務也沒有責任"},{"start":24285.02,"end":24291.02,"text":"幫羅庭委員在這一份不負責任的提案裡面背書"},{"start":24291.02,"end":24294.02,"text":"我再強調一次公聽會的內容也好"},{"start":24294.02,"end":24296.02,"text":"所有委員的質詢也好"},{"start":24296.02,"end":24303.02,"text":"所有家長的發言都不可以拿來為這一份不負責任的提案背書"},{"start":24303.02,"end":24305.02,"text":"請委員一碼歸一碼"},{"start":24305.02,"end":24308.02,"text":"把你真的認為有抵觸法律的部分"},{"start":24308.02,"end":24310.02,"text":"清清楚楚的寫下來"},{"start":24310.02,"end":24315.02,"text":"說出來讓教育部如果真的在院會處理後"},{"start":24315.02,"end":24317.02,"text":"他們必須要去修正"},{"start":24317.52,"end":24318.52,"text":"與理有據"},{"start":24318.52,"end":24321.52,"text":"而且他知道您所要的東西到底是什麼"},{"start":24321.52,"end":24322.52,"text":"以上"},{"start":24325.91,"end":24327.91,"text":"好有請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":24327.91,"end":24330.91,"text":"這個校事會議尤其這個解聘辦法"},{"start":24330.91,"end":24332.91,"text":"其實我們都認為應該要修改"},{"start":24332.91,"end":24333.91,"text":"也認為應該要精進"},{"start":24333.91,"end":24335.91,"text":"我們也都這樣要求教育部"},{"start":24335.91,"end":24336.91,"text":"但是因為我們今天坐在這裡"},{"start":24336.91,"end":24338.91,"text":"我們是因為是立法委員"},{"start":24338.91,"end":24340.91,"text":"才有辦法來進行相關的審議"},{"start":24340.91,"end":24343.91,"text":"所以我覺得我們還是要回到這個母法"},{"start":24343.91,"end":24346.91,"text":"尤其立法院的職權行使法"},{"start":24346.91,"end":24348.91,"text":"因為現在這個委員的提案當中"},{"start":24348.91,"end":24353.91,"text":"特別來去援引了立法院職權行使法第62條"},{"start":24353.91,"end":24356.91,"text":"但是62條的規定就是"},{"start":24356.91,"end":24359.91,"text":"除非這個辦法他有違反法令"},{"start":24361.66,"end":24363.66,"text":"要教育部來更正"},{"start":24363.66,"end":24365.66,"text":"或者是退回廢止"},{"start":24365.66,"end":24367.66,"text":"那麼所以按照現在我們尊重委員的提案"},{"start":24367.66,"end":24369.66,"text":"但是按照現在這個提案的內容"},{"start":24369.66,"end":24371.66,"text":"我會無法進行審議"},{"start":24371.66,"end":24376.66,"text":"因為這個提案本身是違反立法院職權行使法的"},{"start":24376.66,"end":24378.66,"text":"剛剛有講到說過去有其他的案例"},{"start":24378.66,"end":24381.66,"text":"但是其他委員會案例怎麼審"},{"start":24381.66,"end":24383.66,"text":"或是過去怎麼審"},{"start":24383.66,"end":24385.66,"text":"不代表我們現在就要這麼做"},{"start":24385.66,"end":24387.66,"text":"我們還是要回到"},{"start":24387.66,"end":24389.66,"text":"我會要求我們還是要回到母法"},{"start":24391.63,"end":24394.63,"text":"另外還是尊重委員的提案"},{"start":24394.63,"end":24396.63,"text":"只是說在這個提案內容文字當中"},{"start":24396.63,"end":24400.63,"text":"我們看不出來這個如何的是依據"},{"start":24400.63,"end":24403.63,"text":"立法院職權行使法第62條"},{"start":24403.63,"end":24406.63,"text":"因為並沒有去提到違法的事項"},{"start":24406.63,"end":24410.63,"text":"但是如果按照剛剛委員說要修正的文字"},{"start":24410.63,"end":24414.63,"text":"就是說人認為有待修正之處"},{"start":24414.63,"end":24418.63,"text":"請教育部依立法院職權行使法第62條規定"},{"start":24418.63,"end":24421.63,"text":"修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":24421.63,"end":24424.63,"text":"提包立法院院會議決後"},{"start":24424.63,"end":24427.63,"text":"通知教育部更正該辦法"},{"start":24427.63,"end":24429.63,"text":"這個修正的文字"},{"start":24429.63,"end":24431.63,"text":"我也認為也有問題"},{"start":24431.63,"end":24433.63,"text":"因為按照你現在的文字"},{"start":24433.63,"end":24435.63,"text":"你是說請教育部修正完"},{"start":24435.63,"end":24436.63,"text":"送來備查"},{"start":24436.63,"end":24439.63,"text":"修正完了這一份備查了之後"},{"start":24439.63,"end":24441.63,"text":"還要再教育部再去更正"},{"start":24441.63,"end":24444.63,"text":"按照你現在這個文字的寫法"},{"start":24444.63,"end":24445.63,"text":"是這個樣子"},{"start":24445.63,"end":24447.63,"text":"等於要做兩次的修正"},{"start":24447.63,"end":24449.63,"text":"那到底是修正哪一個內容"},{"start":24449.63,"end":24452.63,"text":"因為看起來我們應該是只要一次修正"},{"start":24452.63,"end":24456.63,"text":"所以這個文字落得也有問題"},{"start":24456.63,"end":24459.63,"text":"如果還是堅持要這樣提案的話"},{"start":24459.63,"end":24462.63,"text":"這個文字應該要把它修改"},{"start":24462.63,"end":24463.63,"text":"否則這個程序會很奇怪"},{"start":24463.63,"end":24466.63,"text":"已經立法院退回修完"},{"start":24466.63,"end":24469.63,"text":"立法院備查之後還要再去更正"},{"start":24469.63,"end":24470.63,"text":"這個不太對"},{"start":24470.63,"end":24472.63,"text":"這個文字還等會還要再修改"},{"start":24472.63,"end":24474.63,"text":"那麼因為這個提案"},{"start":24474.63,"end":244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還有委員要發言嗎"},{"start":24517.36,"end":24518.36,"text":"好"},{"start":24518.45,"end":24519.45,"text":"鼓勵委員"},{"start":24520.63,"end":24522.63,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":24522.63,"end":24524.63,"text":"我這邊一樣的意見"},{"start":24524.63,"end":24526.63,"text":"但是我就是要表達一下"},{"start":24526.63,"end":24528.63,"text":"那個整個歷程"},{"start":24528.63,"end":24530.63,"text":"因為我們關於"},{"start":24530.63,"end":24532.63,"text":"校事會議的部分"},{"start":24532.63,"end":24534.63,"text":"曾經兩個召委"},{"start":24534.63,"end":24536.63,"text":"一個排過公聽會"},{"start":24536.63,"end":24538.63,"text":"那另外一個呢"},{"start":24538.63,"end":24540.63,"text":"也排過專報"},{"start":24540.63,"end":24542.63,"text":"那當時呢"},{"start":24542.63,"end":24544.63,"text":"我們也做了很多的要求"},{"start":24544.63,"end":24546.63,"text":"像兩週前"},{"start":24546.63,"end":24548.63,"text":"我就是特別做了一個"},{"start":24548.63,"end":24550.63,"text":"臨時提案跟大家"},{"start":24550.63,"end":24552.63,"text":"就是具體的要求說"},{"start":24552.63,"end":24554.63,"text":"九月要提出一個"},{"start":24554.63,"end":24556.63,"text":"具體的關於"},{"start":24556.63,"end":24558.63,"text":"第三方調查機制的規劃"},{"start":24558.63,"end":24560.63,"text":"或者期程"},{"start":24560.63,"end":24562.63,"text":"的一個可行性"},{"start":24562.63,"end":24564.63,"text":"那另外也提到說"},{"start":24564.63,"end":24566.63,"text":"我們所最在意的"},{"start":24566.63,"end":24568.63,"text":"就是教師的一個"},{"start":24568.63,"end":24570.63,"text":"管教權"},{"start":24570.63,"end":24572.63,"text":"還有呢 防止這個濫訴"},{"start":24572.63,"end":24574.63,"text":"檢舉失衡提供一個完善的"},{"start":24574.63,"end":24576.63,"text":"教師的救濟制度"},{"start":24576.63,"end":24578.63,"text":"當時也有邀請說法務部"},{"start":24578.63,"end":24580.63,"text":"要來協助這個部分"},{"start":24580.63,"end":24582.63,"text":"那在更早之前"},{"start":24582.63,"end":24584.63,"text":"也有要求過說"},{"start":24584.63,"end":24586.63,"text":"這個一月初"},{"start":24586.63,"end":24588.63,"text":"公告失刑上路的"},{"start":24588.63,"end":24590.63,"text":"這個版本呢 希望可以"},{"start":24590.63,"end":24592.63,"text":"試行半年"},{"start":24592.63,"end":24594.63,"text":"那七月十五號呢"},{"start":24594.63,"end":24596.63,"text":"也可以給我們"},{"start":24596.63,"end":24598.63,"text":"提供一個"},{"start":24598.63,"end":24600.63,"text":"這半年實施以來的一個"},{"start":24600.63,"end":24602.63,"text":"延期報告"},{"start":24602.63,"end":24604.63,"text":"那早上聽到國教署教育部這邊"},{"start":24604.63,"end":24606.63,"text":"也已經在七月七號八號的"},{"start":24606.63,"end":24608.63,"text":"全國教育局處長會議當中"},{"start":24608.63,"end":24610.63,"text":"也都有去提了"},{"start":24610.63,"end":24612.63,"text":"所以我不曉得說"},{"start":24612.63,"end":24614.63,"text":"我們之前提的這些"},{"start":24614.63,"end":24616.63,"text":"我們還在眼巴巴的"},{"start":24616.63,"end":24618.63,"text":"要等著"},{"start":24618.63,"end":24620.63,"text":"看這一些分析報告"},{"start":24620.63,"end":24622.63,"text":"要看到這一些有關相關的"},{"start":24622.63,"end":24624.63,"text":"教師輔導管教辦法的"},{"start":24624.63,"end":24626.63,"text":"一個修正"},{"start":24626.63,"end":24628.63,"text":"或者是我們老師的"},{"start":24628.63,"end":24630.63,"text":"一個救濟制度"},{"start":24630.63,"end":24632.63,"text":"結果現在突然"},{"start":24632.63,"end":24634.63,"text":"跑出來一個說"},{"start":24634.63,"end":24636.63,"text":"要根據立法院的"},{"start":24636.63,"end":24638.63,"text":"職權刑事法第六十二條"},{"start":24638.63,"end":24640.63,"text":"來去做"},{"start":24640.63,"end":24642.63,"text":"這樣的一個更正"},{"start":24642.63,"end":24644.63,"text":"或廢止"},{"start":24644.63,"end":24646.63,"text":"那它就會牽涉到所謂的"},{"start":24646.63,"end":24648.63,"text":"那到底真的是因為"},{"start":24648.63,"end":24650.63,"text":"有違法抵觸嗎"},{"start":24650.63,"end":24652.63,"text":"那也很想聽聽看"},{"start":24652.63,"end":24654.63,"text":"就是教育部法制"},{"start":24654.63,"end":24656.63,"text":"單位這邊"},{"start":24656.63,"end":24658.63,"text":"又或者是法務部這邊"},{"start":24658.63,"end":24660.63,"text":"對這樣的一個看法"},{"start":24660.63,"end":24662.63,"text":"如果在質詢當中"},{"start":24662.63,"end":24664.63,"text":"已經很明確的表達說"},{"start":24664.63,"end":24666.63,"text":"並無抵觸"},{"start":24666.63,"end":24668.63,"text":"違法的部分"},{"start":24668.63,"end":24670.63,"text":"那我就是不太曉得說"},{"start":24670.63,"end":24672.63,"text":"我們等一下要表決"},{"start":24672.63,"end":24674.63,"text":"不知道是什麼樣的一個狀態"},{"start":24674.63,"end":24676.63,"text":"到底一能不能夠"},{"start":24676.63,"end":24678.63,"text":"表決"},{"start":24678.63,"end":24680.63,"text":"二那表決之後它的效果"},{"start":24680.63,"end":24682.63,"text":"又是如何"},{"start":24682.63,"end":24684.63,"text":"所以這個部分我也想說"},{"start":24684.63,"end":24686.63,"text":"想聽一聽教育部這邊"},{"start":24686.63,"end":24688.63,"text":"再給我們做一個說明"},{"start":24688.63,"end":24690.63,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24691,"end":24693,"text":"好 財政委員"},{"start":24692.65,"end":24694.65,"text":"主席好"},{"start":24694.65,"end":24696.65,"text":"針對這個提案"},{"start":24696.65,"end":24698.65,"text":"在這裡做個說明"},{"start":24698.65,"end":24700.65,"text":"因為事實上我們已經辦了好幾次"},{"start":24700.65,"end":24702.65,"text":"有關於"},{"start":24702.65,"end":24704.65,"text":"校事會議的一些質詢"},{"start":24704.65,"end":24706.65,"text":"那有很多委員"},{"start":24706.65,"end":24708.65,"text":"也提出很多的一個"},{"start":24708.65,"end":24710.65,"text":"看法"},{"start":24710.65,"end":24712.65,"text":"我們都可以從這個質詢當中"},{"start":24712.65,"end":24714.65,"text":"發現其實有很多瑕疵"},{"start":24714.65,"end":24716.65,"text":"然後造成老師身心"},{"start":24716.65,"end":24718.65,"text":"身心受害"},{"start":24718.65,"end":24720.65,"text":"那我在這裡是要"},{"start":24720.65,"end":24722.65,"text":"要建議"},{"start":24722.65,"end":24724.65,"text":"譬如說我曾經就是有執行過"},{"start":24724.65,"end":24726.65,"text":"老師因為他在聯絡部"},{"start":24726.65,"end":24728.65,"text":"加了一計畫之後"},{"start":24728.65,"end":24730.65,"text":"就受了四個月的一個濫訴"},{"start":24730.65,"end":24732.65,"text":"讓老師身心疲乏"},{"start":24732.65,"end":24734.65,"text":"那像"},{"start":24734.65,"end":24736.65,"text":"像這樣子的一個"},{"start":24736.65,"end":24738.65,"text":"案例"},{"start":24738.65,"end":24740.65,"text":"我們也有提出一個辦法來說"},{"start":24740.65,"end":24742.65,"text":"你要如何來遏止"},{"start":24742.65,"end":24744.65,"text":"這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":24744.65,"end":24746.65,"text":"能夠盡量讓校長還有老師"},{"start":24746.65,"end":24748.65,"text":"不要第一線"},{"start":24748.65,"end":24750.65,"text":"就受傷害"},{"start":24750.65,"end":24752.65,"text":"我也提供說我們可以建立一個"},{"start":24752.65,"end":24754.65,"text":"執行委員會"},{"start":24754.65,"end":24756.65,"text":"讓這個濫訴"},{"start":24756.65,"end":24758.65,"text":"不要第一時間就進到"},{"start":24758.65,"end":24760.65,"text":"學校來"},{"start":24760.65,"end":24762.65,"text":"讓學校老師校長都知道"},{"start":24762.65,"end":24764.65,"text":"我被起訴了"},{"start":24764.65,"end":24766.65,"text":"那種心情"},{"start":24766.65,"end":24768.65,"text":"而且他還會覺得"},{"start":24768.65,"end":24770.65,"text":"這是一個壓力"},{"start":24770.65,"end":24772.65,"text":"那我覺得老師受傷就是"},{"start":24772.65,"end":24774.65,"text":"影響到"},{"start":24774.65,"end":24776.65,"text":"孩子的一個受教權"},{"start":24776.65,"end":24778.65,"text":"所以在這裡就要建議"},{"start":24778.65,"end":24780.65,"text":"因為我們已經聯繫做了三次"},{"start":24780.65,"end":24782.65,"text":"的相關的校事會議"},{"start":24782.65,"end":24784.65,"text":"的一個質詢"},{"start":24784.65,"end":24786.65,"text":"那我看每一次來的時候"},{"start":24786.65,"end":24788.65,"text":"那個"},{"start":24788.65,"end":24790.65,"text":"張廖次長來的時候就聽聽聽"},{"start":24790.65,"end":24792.65,"text":"然後就跟那個國家署署長"},{"start":24792.65,"end":24794.65,"text":"講說這個記起來是什麼"},{"start":24794.65,"end":24796.65,"text":"既然都有聽然後都有"},{"start":24796.65,"end":24798.65,"text":"在記那是不是針對很多"},{"start":24798.65,"end":24800.65,"text":"委員提出的一些"},{"start":24800.65,"end":24802.65,"text":"看法或者是說"},{"start":24802.65,"end":24804.65,"text":"覺得應該要改善的改變"},{"start":24804.65,"end":24806.65,"text":"是不是教育部也要針對"},{"start":24806.65,"end":24808.65,"text":"委員提出來的一些"},{"start":24808.65,"end":24810.65,"text":"看法你們也是要提出"},{"start":24810.65,"end":24812.65,"text":"一個修正"},{"start":24812.65,"end":24814.65,"text":"在這裡我做這樣的"},{"start":24814.65,"end":24816.65,"text":"一個建議"},{"start":24821.65,"end":24823.65,"text":"好請委員"},{"start":24824.57,"end":24826.57,"text":"我"},{"start":24826.57,"end":24828.57,"text":"我很認真的去把母法教師法"},{"start":24828.57,"end":24830.57,"text":"拿出來"},{"start":24830.57,"end":24832.57,"text":"不只是第29條"},{"start":24832.57,"end":24834.57,"text":"就是對於這個教師"},{"start":24834.57,"end":24836.57,"text":"解聘不續聘停聘或自選程序"},{"start":24836.57,"end":24838.57,"text":"相關辦法的29條"},{"start":24838.57,"end":24840.57,"text":"的母法授權"},{"start":24840.57,"end":24842.57,"text":"我更嚴謹的把教師法"},{"start":24842.57,"end":24844.57,"text":"第4章整個"},{"start":24844.57,"end":24846.57,"text":"從第14條"},{"start":24846.57,"end":24848.57,"text":"一直到30條"},{"start":24848.57,"end":24850.57,"text":"我們當年在"},{"start":24850.57,"end":24852.57,"text":"2019年立法院在修"},{"start":24852.57,"end":24854.57,"text":"教師法的時候"},{"start":24854.57,"end":24856.57,"text":"擔心當時的教評"},{"start":24856.57,"end":24858.57,"text":"會失失相互"},{"start":24858.57,"end":24860.57,"text":"然後沒有辦法"},{"start":24860.57,"end":24862.57,"text":"對於老師確實有不適任"},{"start":24862.57,"end":24864.57,"text":"的狀況來加以處置"},{"start":24864.57,"end":24866.57,"text":"所以大家"},{"start":24866.57,"end":24868.57,"text":"那一屆的立法院是花了"},{"start":24868.57,"end":24870.57,"text":"很多次的會議"},{"start":24870.57,"end":24872.57,"text":"去修正了現在"},{"start":24872.57,"end":24874.57,"text":"的教師法第4章"},{"start":24874.57,"end":24876.57,"text":"的完整條文我講"},{"start":24876.57,"end":24878.57,"text":"了14條到30條"},{"start":24878.57,"end":24880.57,"text":"那現在呢"},{"start":24880.57,"end":24882.57,"text":"我認為立法、修法"},{"start":24882.57,"end":24884.57,"text":"或者是責成行政部門"},{"start":24884.57,"end":24886.57,"text":"做行政命令的修正"},{"start":24886.57,"end":24888.57,"text":"都需要負責任"},{"start":24889.53,"end":24891.53,"text":"今天"},{"start":24891.53,"end":24893.53,"text":"昭偉所提的這個提案"},{"start":24893.53,"end":24895.53,"text":"就近似要求"},{"start":24895.53,"end":24897.53,"text":"教育部修正"},{"start":24897.53,"end":24899.53,"text":"該辦法的這個提案"},{"start":24899.53,"end":24901.53,"text":"說穿了"},{"start":24901.53,"end":24903.53,"text":"就是一個"},{"start":24903.53,"end":24905.53,"text":"修什麼你自己想"},{"start":24905.53,"end":24907.53,"text":"修什麼你自己看著辦"},{"start":24908.03,"end":24910.03,"text":"修什麼我叫你修你就修就對了"},{"start":24910.03,"end":24912.03,"text":"偏偏"},{"start":24912.03,"end":24914.03,"text":"要委員來"},{"start":24914.03,"end":24916.03,"text":"指出你認為"},{"start":24916.03,"end":24918.03,"text":"教師法14條有抵觸"},{"start":24918.03,"end":24920.03,"text":"16條有抵觸"},{"start":24920.03,"end":24922.03,"text":"18條有抵觸"},{"start":24922.03,"end":24924.03,"text":"29條抵觸了第二項"},{"start":24924.03,"end":24926.03,"text":"或是第一項"},{"start":24927.01,"end":24929.01,"text":"這些指出"},{"start":24929.41,"end":24931.41,"text":"立委要求教育部修正"},{"start":24931.41,"end":24933.41,"text":"行政命令你至少"},{"start":24933.41,"end":24935.41,"text":"OK我退萬不言"},{"start":24935.41,"end":24937.41,"text":"因為本來行政命令"},{"start":24937.41,"end":24939.41,"text":"就是行政院的權限"},{"start":24939.41,"end":24941.41,"text":"立委縱使"},{"start":24941.41,"end":24943.41,"text":"不需要月組帶袍到"},{"start":24943.41,"end":24945.41,"text":"請教育部把"},{"start":24945.41,"end":24947.41,"text":"行政命令該怎麼修該怎麼修"},{"start":24947.41,"end":24949.41,"text":"立委也許不需要"},{"start":24949.41,"end":24951.41,"text":"做到這因為這也不是立委的"},{"start":24951.41,"end":24953.41,"text":"權限但是至少"},{"start":24953.41,"end":24955.41,"text":"立委要負責任的"},{"start":24955.41,"end":24957.41,"text":"我請你修"},{"start":24957.41,"end":24959.41,"text":"因為你違反了教師法"},{"start":24959.41,"end":24961.41,"text":"的第幾條第幾項"},{"start":24962.96,"end":24964.96,"text":"第幾款"},{"start":24964.53,"end":24966.53,"text":"這是負責任的立法院該做的事"},{"start":24968.41,"end":24970.41,"text":"而不是這麼的"},{"start":24970.41,"end":24972.41,"text":"漫不經心反正"},{"start":24972.41,"end":24974.41,"text":"我看不順眼或者是我"},{"start":24974.41,"end":24976.41,"text":"認為你就是要修就對了"},{"start":24977.98,"end":24979.98,"text":"那我覺得我也不曉得我們的"},{"start":24979.98,"end":24981.98,"text":"議事人員很辛苦啊今天怎麼去登載"},{"start":24981.98,"end":24983.98,"text":"這樣子的一個會議"},{"start":24983.98,"end":24985.98,"text":"內容"},{"start":24985.49,"end":24987.49,"text":"所以大家做事情都要負責任"},{"start":24987.49,"end":24989.49,"text":"我們立法委員在修法"},{"start":24989.49,"end":24991.49,"text":"立法的時候我們也要負責任"},{"start":24991.49,"end":24993.49,"text":"我們要提出我們對應的版本"},{"start":24994.75,"end":24998.75,"text":"那現在要求立法行政院修正"},{"start":24998.75,"end":25002.75,"text":"行政命令的立委提不出任何"},{"start":25003.04,"end":25009.04,"text":"違逆母法抵觸母法的任何相次都提不出來"},{"start":25008.94,"end":25010.94,"text":"就一個我叫你修你就修"},{"start":25013.7,"end":25015.7,"text":"這個立法院"},{"start":25015.64,"end":25017.64,"text":"太無限擴張權力了"},{"start":25018.75,"end":25024.75,"text":"這個立法院也太自我的去踐踏了自己該履行的職責"},{"start":25025.88,"end":25027.88,"text":"我們再一次的懇求"},{"start":25027.88,"end":25030.88,"text":"提案的羅昭偉連署的幾位委員"},{"start":25030.88,"end":25033.88,"text":"你好歹指出來"},{"start":25033.88,"end":25036.88,"text":"這一個之前辦法"},{"start":25036.88,"end":25042.88,"text":"從第一條到最後我現在看到的第62條"},{"start":25042.88,"end":25045.88,"text":"哪一條抵觸母法該修"},{"start":25045.88,"end":25047.88,"text":"你至少把人家mark出來吧"},{"start":25049.09,"end":25052.09,"text":"你至少把抵觸母法的項目內容"},{"start":25053.69,"end":25055.69,"text":"清楚說明吧"},{"start":25055.65,"end":25058.65,"text":"否則我覺得今天在這裡講到半夜12點"},{"start":25058.65,"end":25061.65,"text":"還在做這種龜打牆"},{"start":25061.65,"end":25063.65,"text":"因為提案的委員不負責任"},{"start":25065.61,"end":25067.61,"text":"所以與其"},{"start":25067.45,"end":25070.45,"text":"還在這邊直接這樣討論下去沒有聚焦"},{"start":25070.45,"end":25073.45,"text":"我真的建議主席應當具體的說"},{"start":25074.82,"end":25078.82,"text":"這整個62條文裡頭的之前辦法"},{"start":25078.82,"end":25080.82,"text":"你認為哪一條哪一項"},{"start":25080.82,"end":25083.82,"text":"違反了教師法的哪一條哪一項"},{"start":25083.82,"end":25085.82,"text":"這個才明確"},{"start":25085.82,"end":25087.82,"text":"你要教育部去修"},{"start":25087.82,"end":25089.82,"text":"人家也才能夠聚焦"},{"start":25091.04,"end":25094.04,"text":"否則你像空白的要求"},{"start":25094.65,"end":25097.65,"text":"那教育部也可以空白的交回來"},{"start":25097.65,"end":25100.65,"text":"因為提案委員沒有講清楚你到底要我修哪裡"},{"start":25101.79,"end":25106.79,"text":"我們聽了這麼多位委員大家表達的意見都非常的清楚"},{"start":25106.79,"end":25109.79,"text":"那為什麼提案委員就是迴避了"},{"start":25109.79,"end":25112.79,"text":"自己該履行的職責"},{"start":25113.3,"end":25115.3,"text":"到底違反了魔法哪一條"},{"start":25115.3,"end":25118.3,"text":"這個之前辦法哪一條哪一款"},{"start":25118.3,"end":25120.3,"text":"是有問題的"},{"start":25120.3,"end":25122.3,"text":"你真的拜託你要提出來"},{"start":25125.72,"end":25127.72,"text":"我認為這是提案委員的責任"},{"start":25128.55,"end":25132.55,"text":"你指不出來你要教育部去修什麼"},{"start":25135,"end":25137,"text":"請提案委員要善盡自己立委的職責"},{"start":25144.53,"end":25145.53,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":25145.53,"end":25148.53,"text":"我不確定我們等一下會得到什麼樣的會議結果"},{"start":25148.53,"end":25153.53,"text":"但如果按照剛剛蔡村仇委員你的發言邏輯"},{"start":25153.53,"end":25155.53,"text":"那我是不是就公開建議"},{"start":25155.53,"end":25159.53,"text":"如果提案人羅廷瑋委員只敢用嘴巴說"},{"start":25159.53,"end":25161.53,"text":"不願意在提案上增加"},{"start":25161.53,"end":25164.53,"text":"他認為教育部哪裡違反了魔法"},{"start":25164.53,"end":25166.53,"text":"哪裡牴觸了魔法的說明文字"},{"start":25166.53,"end":25169.53,"text":"如果羅廷瑋委員不肯加"},{"start":25169.53,"end":25171.53,"text":"那是不是蔡村仇委員"},{"start":25171.53,"end":25173.53,"text":"你就把你剛剛說的那麼一大段"},{"start":25173.53,"end":25177.53,"text":"甚至你認為要廢除校事會議的說法"},{"start":25177.53,"end":25179.53,"text":"你們就勇敢的寫在提案裡頭"},{"start":25179.53,"end":25183.53,"text":"讓教育部知道原來這個是羅廷瑋委員"},{"start":25183.53,"end":25185.53,"text":"葉元智委員蔡村仇委員"},{"start":25185.53,"end":25189.53,"text":"羅志強委員的提案就是希望廢除校事會議"},{"start":25189.53,"end":25191.53,"text":"如果這是你們最終的目的"},{"start":25191.53,"end":25195.53,"text":"這樣也比較可以完成你們的許願"},{"start":25195.53,"end":25198.53,"text":"否則真的就會像剛剛我們所提醒的"},{"start":25198.53,"end":25201.53,"text":"當你現在考卷改都不改"},{"start":25201.53,"end":25203.53,"text":"你就丟回去叫人家重寫"},{"start":25203.53,"end":25205.53,"text":"你根本也難以預期"},{"start":25205.53,"end":25207.53,"text":"他又會寫什麼交回來給你"},{"start":25207.53,"end":25209.53,"text":"而你到底會不會滿意"},{"start":25210.18,"end":25212.18,"text":"接下來我要說"},{"start":25212.03,"end":25214.03,"text":"我猜想在今天會議結束之後"},{"start":25214.03,"end":25217.03,"text":"本黨今天所有在場發言提示"},{"start":25217.03,"end":25220.03,"text":"關於這個提案非常荒謬的委員"},{"start":25220.03,"end":25222.03,"text":"可能又會被惡意的剪輯說"},{"start":25222.03,"end":25224.03,"text":"我們反對"},{"start":25224.22,"end":25226.22,"text":"改革校事會議"},{"start":25226.22,"end":25228.22,"text":"我們反對支持現場的老師"},{"start":25228.22,"end":25230.22,"text":"我要說我要先預告"},{"start":25230.22,"end":25232.22,"text":"這是一個非常惡意的指控"},{"start":25232.22,"end":25234.22,"text":"我認為在立法院裡面"},{"start":25234.22,"end":25238.22,"text":"所有的討論都應該要好好的針對事情而討論"},{"start":25238.22,"end":25240.22,"text":"不是所有的事情你認為"},{"start":25240.22,"end":25242.22,"text":"他現在不滿你的意"},{"start":25242.22,"end":25244.22,"text":"你就要全部廢除"},{"start":25244.22,"end":25246.22,"text":"如果你的提案是要全部廢除"},{"start":25246.22,"end":25248.22,"text":"那我要提醒所有的委員"},{"start":25248.22,"end":25250.22,"text":"你們必須要回去修的是教師法"},{"start":25250.22,"end":25254.22,"text":"當年108年修法的第29條"},{"start":25254.22,"end":25256.22,"text":"而不是在這個行政辦法上"},{"start":25256.22,"end":25258.22,"text":"提出一個莫名其妙"},{"start":25258.22,"end":25261.22,"text":"不願意負責任說明理由的提案"},{"start":25261.22,"end":25263.22,"text":"就要教育部去做到"},{"start":25263.22,"end":25265.22,"text":"讓你們滿意的地步"},{"start":25265.22,"end":25268.22,"text":"我認為這也不是現在的教育現場所要看見的"},{"start":25268.22,"end":25270.22,"text":"在今天早上的質詢當中"},{"start":25270.22,"end":25272.22,"text":"我們也看到羅庭薇委員"},{"start":25272.22,"end":25274.22,"text":"你不只提了老師的意見"},{"start":25274.22,"end":25276.22,"text":"你邀請了現場的老師"},{"start":25276.22,"end":25278.22,"text":"但你不要忘記了你自己也說了"},{"start":25278.22,"end":25280.22,"text":"學生的權益必須要被照顧"},{"start":25280.22,"end":25282.22,"text":"家長的權益也要被理解"},{"start":25282.22,"end":25286.22,"text":"親師生共同相處的學校第一線現場"},{"start":25286.22,"end":25288.22,"text":"需要更完整的配套"},{"start":25288.22,"end":25290.22,"text":"但如果你心中想的所謂"},{"start":25290.22,"end":25293.22,"text":"更完整的配套是全面的廢除教師會議"},{"start":25293.22,"end":25295.22,"text":"如果你有這樣的主張"},{"start":25295.22,"end":25298.22,"text":"我們認為你有言論免責權"},{"start":25298.22,"end":25299.22,"text":"你有自由的言論權利"},{"start":25299.22,"end":25301.22,"text":"你可以用力的主張"},{"start":25301.22,"end":25304.22,"text":"每一個人都可以為自己的主張負責"},{"start":25304.22,"end":25305.22,"text":"而不是提出一個"},{"start":25305.22,"end":25308.22,"text":"不願意說明不敢說明"},{"start":25308.22,"end":25310.22,"text":"不敢說清楚的提案"},{"start":25310.22,"end":25313.22,"text":"就要叫教育部回去重新更正"},{"start":25313.22,"end":25316.22,"text":"所以我再次提醒所有的提案委員"},{"start":25316.22,"end":25318.22,"text":"如果你們真的覺得自己講的非常有道理"},{"start":25318.22,"end":25322.22,"text":"而且你也堅持這個事情要往下這樣做"},{"start":25322.22,"end":25324.22,"text":"就請你勇敢的寫在提案裡面"},{"start":25324.22,"end":25326.22,"text":"未來納入公報"},{"start":25326.22,"end":25329.22,"text":"請你為你自己的言論負責"},{"start":25329.22,"end":25331.22,"text":"大家都看得非常的清楚"},{"start":25336.1,"end":25339.1,"text":"在這裡要回覆一下前陪理委員"},{"start":25339.1,"end":25344.1,"text":"我剛剛連一句廢除教師會議的話都沒有講"},{"start":25344.1,"end":25346.1,"text":"所以不要扣帽子"},{"start":25346.1,"end":25350.1,"text":"那我覺得教師會議我也沒有贊成要廢"},{"start":25350.1,"end":25353.1,"text":"但是我們總是這種政策不能往回走"},{"start":25353.1,"end":25355.1,"text":"那既然都已經"},{"start":25355.54,"end":25357.54,"text":"已經建立了設立了之後"},{"start":25357.54,"end":25359.54,"text":"當然有很多的一個瑕疵"},{"start":25359.54,"end":25361.54,"text":"這也不是我一個人講的"},{"start":25361.54,"end":25363.54,"text":"我們開了好幾次的教師會議"},{"start":25363.54,"end":25366.54,"text":"已經每一個委員幾乎都有針對"},{"start":25366.54,"end":25369.54,"text":"教師會議裡面的一些一些缺點"},{"start":25369.54,"end":25371.54,"text":"提出一個建議"},{"start":25371.54,"end":25373.54,"text":"那我是覺得說"},{"start":25373.54,"end":25378.54,"text":"針對有一些對於老師不公平的地方"},{"start":25378.54,"end":25381.54,"text":"或是說對老師比較有傷害性的一些"},{"start":25381.54,"end":25387.54,"text":"一些事例呢"},{"start":25387.54,"end":25389.54,"text":"我們來做一個修正"},{"start":25389.54,"end":25393.54,"text":"至於我覺得我們這個教師會議"},{"start":25393.54,"end":25394.54,"text":"既然是訂了以後的"},{"start":25394.54,"end":25396.54,"text":"讓他越走越好"},{"start":25396.54,"end":25400.54,"text":"然後也不要讓老師受傷害"},{"start":25400.54,"end":25402.54,"text":"該保障的要保障對於學生的潛意"},{"start":25402.54,"end":25404.54,"text":"對老師的潛意"},{"start":25404.54,"end":25406.54,"text":"還有家長他希望"},{"start":25406.54,"end":25410.54,"text":"他對於學生在學校裡面應該受的哪些照顧"},{"start":25410.54,"end":25413.54,"text":"我覺得我們都可以考慮"},{"start":25413.54,"end":25416.54,"text":"但是我們並沒有說我們要廢除那個"},{"start":25416.54,"end":25418.54,"text":"廢除教師會議"},{"start":25418.54,"end":25423.54,"text":"請裴禮委員跟你解釋一下"},{"start":25429.42,"end":25431.42,"text":"請歸巡委"},{"start":25432.64,"end":25434.64,"text":"在這裡再講清楚一次"},{"start":25434.64,"end":25436.64,"text":"其實我們百分之百"},{"start":25436.64,"end":25440.64,"text":"支持減輕教師會議對於現場的老師的一個內號"},{"start":25440.64,"end":25446.64,"text":"但是根據立法院職權行使法第62條審查的一個精神"},{"start":25446.64,"end":25448.64,"text":"我想大家應該都非常清楚"},{"start":25448.64,"end":25450.64,"text":"這是立法委員的責任"},{"start":25450.64,"end":25453.64,"text":"立法院如果認為行政命令有一些問題"},{"start":25453.64,"end":25456.64,"text":"那要求這個教育部要更正"},{"start":25456.64,"end":25458.64,"text":"那必須要明確的指出"},{"start":25458.64,"end":25460.64,"text":"到底是哪一個條文"},{"start":25460.64,"end":25463.64,"text":"到底是哪一個部分違反了法律"},{"start":25463.64,"end":25466.64,"text":"或者是違反了所謂的這個魔法的授權"},{"start":25466.64,"end":25468.64,"text":"那像這樣子的一個提案"},{"start":25468.64,"end":25470.64,"text":"沒有把任何的條字寫在上面"},{"start":25470.64,"end":25473.64,"text":"其實是除了粗糙以外"},{"start":25473.64,"end":25475.64,"text":"其實也是蠻不負責任"},{"start":25475.64,"end":25477.64,"text":"而且感覺就像是個空拋彈"},{"start":25477.64,"end":25481.64,"text":"那上面是完全沒有列出條文的對照表"},{"start":25481.64,"end":25485.64,"text":"那另外就是我們看到就是提案的委員"},{"start":25485.64,"end":25486.64,"text":"如果您是不滿"},{"start":25486.64,"end":25488.64,"text":"到底是不滿哪一個部分"},{"start":25488.64,"end":25491.64,"text":"然後要這個教育部回去修正"},{"start":25491.64,"end":25495.64,"text":"那這個做法有點像是剛剛其實培育委員也講得很清楚"},{"start":25495.64,"end":25498.64,"text":"就是有點像是改考卷的老師"},{"start":25498.64,"end":25500.64,"text":"直接在考卷上直接打一個大XX"},{"start":25500.64,"end":25502.64,"text":"也不跟他講說到底錯在哪裡"},{"start":25502.64,"end":25504.64,"text":"回去要改在哪裡"},{"start":25504.64,"end":25507.64,"text":"你要訂正你要訂正十次還是要訂正幾次"},{"start":25507.64,"end":25509.64,"text":"到底要訂正在哪裡"},{"start":25509.64,"end":25511.64,"text":"還是哪一個步驟算錯了"},{"start":25511.64,"end":25514.64,"text":"那我想這樣子的一個比較模糊的提案"},{"start":25514.64,"end":25516.64,"text":"其實真的"},{"start":25516.64,"end":25519.64,"text":"我不曉得到底今天我們坐在這個地方"},{"start":25519.64,"end":25522.64,"text":"每一個委員其實都表達得非常的清楚"},{"start":25522.64,"end":25525.64,"text":"那我想這個部分也是再次的提醒"},{"start":25525.64,"end":25526.64,"text":"就是提案的委員"},{"start":25526.64,"end":25531.64,"text":"我們如果針對所謂的這樣子的一個要修正"},{"start":25531.64,"end":25534.64,"text":"到底要修正到哪一個步驟"},{"start":25534.64,"end":25537.64,"text":"到底是要哪一個條文要來修正"},{"start":25537.64,"end":25539.64,"text":"這個一定要寫得清楚明白"},{"start":25539.64,"end":25540.64,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":25545.48,"end":25546.48,"text":"還有委員有意見嗎"},{"start":25557.99,"end":25558.99,"text":"好"},{"start":25561.04,"end":25563.04,"text":"我們來處理這個提案"},{"start":25565.18,"end":25566.18,"text":"嗯"},{"start":25566.68,"end":25567.68,"text":"先回應一下委員"},{"start":25567.68,"end":25568.68,"text":"跟委員特別報告"},{"start":25570.19,"end":25571.19,"text":"剛剛"},{"start":25571.71,"end":25573.71,"text":"非常感謝吳思達委員"},{"start":25573.71,"end":25577.71,"text":"剛剛有提到行政命令是行政機關的主要權責"},{"start":25577.71,"end":25579.71,"text":"立法委員不應該越取代跑"},{"start":25579.71,"end":25581.71,"text":"所以我覺得還是尊重一下"},{"start":25581.71,"end":25584.71,"text":"我們現場主管機關有沒有要再發言"},{"start":25593.34,"end":25595.34,"text":"好 主管機關沒意見"},{"start":25595.34,"end":25597.34,"text":"那我們都是辦理了公聽會"},{"start":25597.34,"end":25599.34,"text":"然後專報"},{"start":25599.34,"end":25601.34,"text":"然後詢答"},{"start":25601.34,"end":25603.34,"text":"大家也都交流了很多的意見"},{"start":25603.34,"end":25606.34,"text":"現場不管是公聽會老師"},{"start":25606.34,"end":25609.34,"text":"第一線全教總他們相關的意見"},{"start":25609.34,"end":25611.34,"text":"我相信你們應該也都知道"},{"start":25611.34,"end":25614.34,"text":"他們的一個相關條文需要哪裡更正"},{"start":25614.34,"end":25617.34,"text":"那再來再透過每一次的詢答"},{"start":25617.34,"end":25619.34,"text":"很多的委員都有給予意見"},{"start":25619.34,"end":25621.34,"text":"希望你們都可以納入"},{"start":25621.34,"end":25623.34,"text":"所以在今天很明確的提出了"},{"start":25623.34,"end":25625.34,"text":"我們的第一個提案"},{"start":25625.34,"end":25629.34,"text":"就是希望能夠請教一部修正後"},{"start":25630.52,"end":25632.52,"text":"再送立法院備查"},{"start":25632.52,"end":25635.52,"text":"依立法委員職權刑事法第62條來規定"},{"start":25635.52,"end":25638.52,"text":"當然有委員特別關心"},{"start":25638.52,"end":25640.52,"text":"是不是有違反母法"},{"start":25640.52,"end":25643.52,"text":"所以要求要有違反母法的理由"},{"start":25643.52,"end":25644.52,"text":"才可以來修法"},{"start":25644.52,"end":25647.52,"text":"我們已經多次再次的跟大家報告"},{"start":25647.52,"end":25650.52,"text":"95年有相關的一個"},{"start":25651.14,"end":25653.14,"text":"教育文化委員會所做出的決議"},{"start":25653.14,"end":25655.14,"text":"當時是用罔顧名義"},{"start":25655.83,"end":25657.83,"text":"以及實際的狀況"},{"start":25657.83,"end":25658.83,"text":"故予以退回"},{"start":25659.44,"end":25660.44,"text":"所以這是有潛力的"},{"start":25660.44,"end":25662.44,"text":"並不是一定要違反母法"},{"start":25662.44,"end":25665.44,"text":"而是跟實際的操作狀況"},{"start":25665.44,"end":25668.44,"text":"有實際的缺失"},{"start":25668.44,"end":25670.44,"text":"希望能夠與退回修正"},{"start":25670.44,"end":25672.44,"text":"再重新立法院備查"},{"start":25672.44,"end":25675.44,"text":"那另外也調出了相關的資料"},{"start":25675.44,"end":25676.44,"text":"94年"},{"start":25677.28,"end":25679.28,"text":"我們在11月24號"},{"start":25679.28,"end":25682.28,"text":"舉行第11次全體委員會議的時候"},{"start":25682.28,"end":25685.28,"text":"當時是由洪秀柱擔任主席"},{"start":25685.28,"end":25688.28,"text":"那這個部分他們也是在處理"},{"start":25688.28,"end":25692.28,"text":"教師申訴評議委員會組織及評議準則"},{"start":25692.28,"end":25694.28,"text":"這樣的一個辦法"},{"start":25694.28,"end":25697.28,"text":"那他們到那個時候下的結論也是"},{"start":25697.28,"end":25700.28,"text":"為改善目前教師申訴"},{"start":25700.28,"end":25703.28,"text":"實際運作的缺失"},{"start":25703.28,"end":25706.28,"text":"所以請教育部重新斟酌研擬後"},{"start":25706.28,"end":25708.28,"text":"再送本院備查"},{"start":25708.28,"end":25711.28,"text":"也都沒有提到一定要逾越母法"},{"start":25711.28,"end":25714.28,"text":"那我想這個部分也請各位委員能夠來"},{"start":25714.28,"end":25717.28,"text":"參考一下我所提出的潛力"},{"start":25717.28,"end":25720.28,"text":"他是可以依照潛力這樣子來處理的"},{"start":25720.28,"end":25724.28,"text":"那最後我想所有的委員對我的提案"},{"start":25724.28,"end":25725.28,"text":"都很有意見"},{"start":25725.28,"end":25728.28,"text":"我也非常感謝虛心指教"},{"start":25728.28,"end":25731.28,"text":"那是不是也請委員直接提出你的版本"},{"start":25731.28,"end":25734.28,"text":"那不要告訴別的委員說"},{"start":25734.28,"end":25736.28,"text":"你都給人家考卷打XX"},{"start":25736.28,"end":25737.28,"text":"直接不看"},{"start":25737.28,"end":25740.28,"text":"那我想我們都已經做答了"},{"start":25740.28,"end":25742.28,"text":"您認為我們不及格"},{"start":25742.28,"end":25744.28,"text":"那是不是也請民進黨的委員"},{"start":25744.28,"end":25745.28,"text":"也請你做答"},{"start":25745.28,"end":25748.28,"text":"也請你在你的考卷寫上你的答案"},{"start":25748.28,"end":25750.28,"text":"那來告訴大家你的提案是什麼"},{"start":25750.28,"end":25751.28,"text":"我們再來討論"},{"start":25751.28,"end":25753.28,"text":"不要只是批評"},{"start":25753.28,"end":25756.28,"text":"那都沒有辦法把這個事情持續的推進"},{"start":25756.99,"end":25758.99,"text":"以上簡單的回憶"},{"start":25758.99,"end":25760.99,"text":"接下來我們就要來處理提案"},{"start":25761.99,"end":25762.99,"text":"第一案"},{"start":25762.99,"end":25763.99,"text":"請提案委員"},{"start":25763.99,"end":25764.99,"text":"那我們剛剛都已經說明了"},{"start":25764.99,"end":25767.99,"text":"機關代表也多次詢問沒有表達意見"},{"start":25767.99,"end":25770.99,"text":"那所以我們現在要來處理提案一"},{"start":25770.99,"end":25773.99,"text":"那本案是否照案通過或者要修正"},{"start":25775.89,"end":25776.89,"text":"請委員"},{"start":25777.87,"end":25778.87,"text":"有沒有意義"},{"start":25778.87,"end":25780.87,"text":"沒有意義的話我們要照案通過"},{"start":25781.29,"end":25782.29,"text":"有意義"},{"start":25783.12,"end":25784.12,"text":"有意義"},{"start":25784.37,"end":25785.37,"text":"好"},{"start":25785.37,"end":25786.37,"text":"有委員提出保留"},{"start":25788.87,"end":25789.87,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":25789.87,"end":25790.87,"text":"有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":25808.92,"end":25809.92,"text":"我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":25945.81,"end":25947.81,"text":"好 我們現在正式開會"},{"start":25961.91,"end":25963.91,"text":"好 現在處理第一案"},{"start":25963.91,"end":25965.91,"text":"那剛剛有委員提案"},{"start":25966.72,"end":25967.72,"text":"針對第一案"},{"start":25968.02,"end":25970.02,"text":"保留送院會處理"},{"start":25970.02,"end":25971.02,"text":"請問有意義"},{"start":25973.17,"end":25974.17,"text":"好 有意義表決"},{"start":25977.99,"end":25978.99,"text":"來 請清點人數"},{"start":25983.06,"end":25985.06,"text":"好 出席委員八位"},{"start":25987.41,"end":25988.41,"text":"針對提案第一案"},{"start":25989.18,"end":25991.18,"text":"那因為沒有其他委員提案"},{"start":25991.18,"end":25992.18,"text":"我們就只有這第一案"},{"start":25993.21,"end":25994.21,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":25994.21,"end":25996.21,"text":"有委員提案保留"},{"start":25996.21,"end":25999.21,"text":"支持保留送院會處理的"},{"start":25999.21,"end":26000.21,"text":"請舉手"},{"start":26006.9,"end":26008.9,"text":"主席你真的是愛怎麼自己家就怎麼家"},{"start":26009.84,"end":26010.84,"text":"還有我想要主張"},{"start":26010.84,"end":26011.84,"text":"為什麼現場有"},{"start":26011.84,"end":26013.84,"text":"不知道哪一個委員辦公室的助理"},{"start":26013.84,"end":26014.84,"text":"一直在拍個別委員的發言"},{"start":26014.84,"end":26016.84,"text":"我們明明已經有Ivod了"},{"start":26016.84,"end":26018.84,"text":"我可不可以主張確認一下"},{"start":26018.84,"end":26022.84,"text":"因為剛剛有委員一直在拍我們的發言"},{"start":26022.84,"end":26023.84,"text":"不知道怎麼回事"},{"start":26028.03,"end":26029.03,"text":"來 請"},{"start":26029.03,"end":26031.03,"text":"所以我想要請問一下"},{"start":26031.03,"end":26032.03,"text":"等一下 主席"},{"start":26032.96,"end":26033.96,"text":"主席我可以發言嗎"},{"start":26033.96,"end":26035.96,"text":"保留送院會處理的請表決"},{"start":26036.84,"end":26038.84,"text":"主席你可不可以讓我們把話講完"},{"start":26038.84,"end":26041.84,"text":"你現在就打算當一個蠻恨獨裁的主席嗎"},{"start":26041.84,"end":26043.84,"text":"就你自己說了算嗎"},{"start":26043.84,"end":26045.84,"text":"所有委員的發言都不用參考跟討論"},{"start":26045.84,"end":26047.84,"text":"如果今天國民黨委員這麼在意"},{"start":26047.84,"end":26048.84,"text":"請問有人到了現場嗎"},{"start":26048.84,"end":26049.84,"text":"主席"},{"start":26049.84,"end":26050.84,"text":"我們可不可以把你剛剛"},{"start":26050.84,"end":26052.84,"text":"你突然保留送院會是怎麼回事"},{"start":26053.86,"end":26055.86,"text":"所以是主席你自己說了算"},{"start":26055.86,"end":26057.86,"text":"麻煩請剛剛提案的委員"},{"start":26057.86,"end":26059.86,"text":"再次說明你的提案沒關係"},{"start":26063.65,"end":26066.65,"text":"不好意思 我是說處理本提案的時候"},{"start":26066.65,"end":26068.65,"text":"你的提議是"},{"start":26071.84,"end":26073.84,"text":"我們的提議是"},{"start":26073.84,"end":26075.84,"text":"請提案委員宰名"},{"start":26075.84,"end":26079.84,"text":"有關現在在審議的"},{"start":26079.84,"end":26082.84,"text":"高級中等以下學校教師"},{"start":26082.84,"end":26085.84,"text":"解聘不續聘停聘或諮詢辦法"},{"start":26085.84,"end":26087.84,"text":"請提案委員指出"},{"start":26087.84,"end":26090.84,"text":"哪些款項條文"},{"start":26090.84,"end":26094.84,"text":"違逆了母法教師法29條"},{"start":26094.84,"end":26098.84,"text":"我們具體要求提案委員要宰名"},{"start":26098.84,"end":26099.84,"text":"重新提案"},{"start":26099.84,"end":26102.84,"text":"否則這是一個不明不白"},{"start":26102.84,"end":26105.84,"text":"這是一個完全不清楚"},{"start":26107.21,"end":26109.21,"text":"完全不聚焦"},{"start":26109.21,"end":26112.21,"text":"這是一個空白的提案"},{"start":26113.06,"end":26116.06,"text":"所以對於這樣完全空白的提案"},{"start":26116.06,"end":26118.06,"text":"我們的具體要求是"},{"start":26118.06,"end":26122.06,"text":"請提案委員重新提案"},{"start":26122.06,"end":26126.06,"text":"針對違逆母法之處為哪些"},{"start":26126.06,"end":26128.06,"text":"宰名之後再來討論"},{"start":26128.06,"end":26130.06,"text":"這樣才負責任"},{"start":26130.06,"end":26133.06,"text":"我們不能讓這種空白"},{"start":26133.06,"end":26134.06,"text":"授權"},{"start":26134.63,"end":26135.63,"text":"我不知道怎麼形容"},{"start":26135.63,"end":26138.63,"text":"就是空白的提案"},{"start":26138.63,"end":26140.63,"text":"粗枝濫造的提案"},{"start":26141.43,"end":26143.43,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":26143.12,"end":26145.12,"text":"提案的委員自己不覺得"},{"start":26145.12,"end":26147.12,"text":"自己寫這個提案很心虛嗎"},{"start":26147.57,"end":26149.57,"text":"所以我具體請主席"},{"start":26149.57,"end":26151.57,"text":"針對這個辦法裡頭"},{"start":26151.57,"end":26154.57,"text":"哪些條文跟母法底處"},{"start":26155.87,"end":26157.87,"text":"回到職權行使法62條"},{"start":26157.87,"end":26159.87,"text":"你應當宰名"},{"start":26159.87,"end":26162.87,"text":"這才是一個合宜的提案"},{"start":26162.87,"end":26164.87,"text":"否則我們無從討論"},{"start":26165.73,"end":26167.73,"text":"你就算送到院會"},{"start":26167.73,"end":26169.73,"text":"也是無從討論"},{"start":26169.73,"end":26171.73,"text":"因為你是一個完全空白"},{"start":26171.73,"end":26173.73,"text":"不明不白的提案"},{"start":26176.98,"end":26178.98,"text":"好 報告委員"},{"start":26178.98,"end":26180.98,"text":"還是要請委員直接就"},{"start":26180.98,"end":26182.98,"text":"針對我的提案"},{"start":26182.98,"end":26184.98,"text":"直接來議事程序處理"},{"start":26184.98,"end":26187.98,"text":"委員不應該是提出自己的文字"},{"start":26187.98,"end":26189.98,"text":"然後要求其他的委員"},{"start":26189.98,"end":26191.98,"text":"要來照你的模式來處理"},{"start":26191.98,"end":26193.98,"text":"我們是針對議事程序處理"},{"start":26193.98,"end":26195.98,"text":"所以基本上"},{"start":26195.98,"end":26197.98,"text":"我們的提案已經寫出來了"},{"start":26197.98,"end":26199.98,"text":"如果您不滿意的話"},{"start":26199.98,"end":26202.98,"text":"您可以直接提出您自己的版本"},{"start":26202.98,"end":26204.98,"text":"但您不可以提出方案說"},{"start":26204.98,"end":26206.98,"text":"這個委員不好"},{"start":26206.98,"end":26208.98,"text":"所以請他再改正"},{"start":26208.98,"end":26210.98,"text":"那這個部分我們沒辦法去處理"},{"start":26210.98,"end":26213.98,"text":"你議事程序沒辦法去要求其他的委員"},{"start":26213.98,"end":26215.98,"text":"而是要直接處理"},{"start":26215.98,"end":26216.98,"text":"要照案通過"},{"start":26216.98,"end":26217.98,"text":"還是修成通過"},{"start":26217.98,"end":26218.98,"text":"還是要保留"},{"start":26218.98,"end":26220.98,"text":"以上簡單跟委員報告"},{"start":26223.91,"end":26225.91,"text":"您要要求教育部修正"},{"start":26225.91,"end":26229.91,"text":"您就提出哪些部分教育部違反母法"},{"start":26229.91,"end":26232.91,"text":"你寫出來有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":26232.91,"end":26233.91,"text":"如果你自己寫不出來"},{"start":26233.91,"end":26236.91,"text":"就是因為你沒有辦法說清楚"},{"start":26236.91,"end":26239.91,"text":"因為他並沒有違逆母法之處"},{"start":26239.91,"end":26242.91,"text":"您沒有辦法自圓其說"},{"start":26242.91,"end":26245.91,"text":"您沒有辦法自圓其說"},{"start":26245.91,"end":26247.91,"text":"您沒有辦法"},{"start":26247.91,"end":26249.91,"text":"現在是2026年"},{"start":26249.91,"end":26252.91,"text":"現在是2026年"},{"start":26252.91,"end":26254.91,"text":"教育部重新斟酌"},{"start":26254.91,"end":26257.91,"text":"羅經緯教委您活在哪一個時空"},{"start":26257.91,"end":26259.91,"text":"決議的理由確實需要修正"},{"start":26259.91,"end":26262.91,"text":"罔顧民意之實際狀況予以退回"},{"start":26262.91,"end":26265.91,"text":"這個是當時94年95年"},{"start":26265.91,"end":26267.91,"text":"他們並沒有寫到要"},{"start":26267.91,"end":26269.91,"text":"逾越母法為前提"},{"start":26269.91,"end":26271.91,"text":"才可以退回"},{"start":26271.91,"end":26274.91,"text":"要求教育部重新修正"},{"start":26274.91,"end":26276.91,"text":"主席我想要說"},{"start":26276.91,"end":26280.91,"text":"你現在犯了兩個非常大的法理上的錯誤"},{"start":26280.91,"end":26283.91,"text":"但我想我們都是新科的立委"},{"start":26283.91,"end":26285.91,"text":"我們可以一起學習"},{"start":26285.91,"end":26287.91,"text":"我就提出我們的建議"},{"start":26287.91,"end":26289.91,"text":"第一個你剛剛已經說了"},{"start":26289.91,"end":26290.91,"text":"在你念的兩個版本裡面"},{"start":26290.91,"end":26291.91,"text":"20年前的部分"},{"start":26291.91,"end":26293.91,"text":"其實他們都很明白"},{"start":26293.91,"end":26295.91,"text":"而且很勇敢的說出自己的看法"},{"start":26295.91,"end":26298.91,"text":"叫做背離民意等等等也好"},{"start":26298.91,"end":26300.91,"text":"還有就是罔顧教師現場權益"},{"start":26300.91,"end":26302.91,"text":"可是委員主席"},{"start":26302.91,"end":26304.91,"text":"你看一下你自己的提案"},{"start":26304.91,"end":26305.91,"text":"你連民意兩個字"},{"start":26305.91,"end":26307.91,"text":"或者是教訓權益什麼"},{"start":26307.91,"end":26308.91,"text":"你都不敢寫"},{"start":26308.91,"end":26310.91,"text":"你就寫了一堆完全不知道說什麼東西"},{"start":26310.91,"end":26312.91,"text":"要不要我再念一次給你聽"},{"start":26312.91,"end":26314.91,"text":"你認為有待修正之處"},{"start":26314.91,"end":26316.91,"text":"是誰認為有待修正呢"},{"start":26316.91,"end":26317.91,"text":"要修正哪些東西呢"},{"start":26317.91,"end":26319.91,"text":"然後通知教育部更正"},{"start":26319.91,"end":26321.91,"text":"所以吳思耀委員的提案的建議內容"},{"start":26321.91,"end":26323.91,"text":"根據您的提案"},{"start":26323.91,"end":26324.91,"text":"我們要說的就是"},{"start":26324.91,"end":26326.91,"text":"請你認為有問題的地方"},{"start":26326.91,"end":26328.91,"text":"就寫出來放在提案裡面"},{"start":26328.91,"end":26331.91,"text":"我們可以再來根據你所更正過的提案"},{"start":26331.91,"end":26332.91,"text":"來進行處理"},{"start":26332.91,"end":26333.91,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":26333.91,"end":26337.91,"text":"第二個我認為你完全在糟蹋民主"},{"start":26337.91,"end":26341.91,"text":"現場有這麼多委員對於你剛剛說要處理這件事情"},{"start":26341.91,"end":26344.91,"text":"表達有意義有看法有不同的意見"},{"start":26344.91,"end":26346.91,"text":"你就決定打算不處理嗎"},{"start":26346.91,"end":26347.91,"text":"就決定硬要表決嗎"},{"start":26347.91,"end":26349.91,"text":"就你一個人說了算嗎"},{"start":26349.91,"end":26350.91,"text":"請問在委員會裡面"},{"start":26350.91,"end":26353.91,"text":"我們連最基本的民主程序都沒有辦法落實嗎"},{"start":26353.91,"end":26356.91,"text":"我不知道原來召委的權力有這麼大"},{"start":26356.91,"end":26359.91,"text":"這麼無限擴張這麼獨裁這麼集權"},{"start":26359.91,"end":26362.91,"text":"有這樣的一個國民黨的羅庭偉委員"},{"start":26362.91,"end":26364.91,"text":"擔任教育文化委員會的召委"},{"start":26364.91,"end":26366.91,"text":"是誰把教育文化委員會的氣氛現在變成這樣"},{"start":26366.91,"end":26368.91,"text":"就是你羅昭偉"},{"start":26368.91,"end":26369.91,"text":"所以我再一次強調"},{"start":26369.91,"end":26373.91,"text":"如果你跟蔡村丑委員你們兩個現在都還在現場"},{"start":26373.91,"end":26375.91,"text":"你們認為你們說的非常有道理"},{"start":26375.91,"end":26377.91,"text":"不論是背離民意也好"},{"start":26377.91,"end":26380.91,"text":"或是你們認為沒有理解到現場老師的痛苦"},{"start":26380.91,"end":26382.91,"text":"那你們就勇敢的寫在提案裡頭"},{"star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6585.88,"end":26587.88,"text":"更何況你們國民黨的委員"},{"start":26587.88,"end":26589.88,"text":"沒有半個人在場啊"},{"start":26591.18,"end":26593.18,"text":"沒有半個人在場"},{"start":26593.18,"end":26595.18,"text":"關心校事會議啊"},{"start":26596.32,"end":26598.32,"text":"國民黨的委員到哪裡去了"},{"start":26599.87,"end":26601.87,"text":"然後張偉一個人就要這樣盲幹"},{"start":26603.46,"end":26604.46,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":26604.46,"end":26606.46,"text":"委員是不是可以請尊重一下"},{"start":26606.46,"end":26608.46,"text":"主席請你發言"},{"start":26608.46,"end":26609.46,"text":"再繼續發言"},{"start":26609.46,"end":26612.46,"text":"就會提出校事會議的分析報告"},{"start":26612.46,"end":26613.46,"text":"我們剛剛已經說得很清楚"},{"start":26613.46,"end":26616.46,"text":"所以我們認為要等7月15號"},{"start":26616.46,"end":26618.46,"text":"教育部的分析報告提出"},{"start":26618.46,"end":26620.46,"text":"麻煩請委員自行提案"},{"start":26620.46,"end":26623.46,"text":"那如果委員也自行提案"},{"start":26623.46,"end":26625.46,"text":"那我們沒有認為哪個條文"},{"start":26625.46,"end":26629.46,"text":"我們目前要照第一案來處理"},{"start":26629.46,"end":26631.46,"text":"要提案的人是你啊"},{"start":26631.46,"end":26633.46,"text":"我們的議事程序只能夠"},{"start":26633.46,"end":26635.46,"text":"上案通過 修正通過"},{"start":26635.46,"end":26637.46,"text":"或者是保留"},{"start":26637.46,"end":26638.46,"text":"那委員"},{"start":26638.46,"end":26640.46,"text":"您的提案不可以要求"},{"start":26640.46,"end":26642.46,"text":"其他委員一樣怎麼做"},{"start":26642.46,"end":26645.46,"text":"那我也再一次的跟所有的國人"},{"start":26645.46,"end":26647.46,"text":"以及其他委員特別報告"},{"start":26647.46,"end":26650.46,"text":"94年95年已經有多次審議"},{"start":26650.46,"end":26651.46,"text":"相關的行政命令"},{"start":26651.46,"end":26653.46,"text":"都是有下結論"},{"start":26653.46,"end":26657.46,"text":"因為現場的實際狀況違背民意"},{"start":26657.46,"end":26659.46,"text":"那相關的辦法應該教育部"},{"start":26659.46,"end":26663.46,"text":"重新修正再送回立法院審查"},{"start":26663.46,"end":26667.46,"text":"那以上是我們這個提案的主旨"},{"start":26667.46,"end":26668.46,"text":"那所以還是拜託"},{"start":26668.46,"end":26670.46,"text":"如果委員您覺得不滿意"},{"start":26670.46,"end":26672.46,"text":"您可以提出您自己的版本"},{"start":26672.46,"end":26675.46,"text":"但您不可以提案要求別的委員怎麼做"},{"start":26675.46,"end":26678.46,"text":"那剛剛有再一次請我們的主管機關"},{"start":26678.46,"end":26680.46,"text":"請提出修正文字"},{"start":26680.46,"end":26682.46,"text":"也多次的詢問主管機關"},{"start":26682.46,"end":26685.46,"text":"沒有意願要提出修正文字"},{"start":26686.66,"end":26690.66,"text":"所以我們是不是就直接推進我們的議事程序"},{"start":26691.48,"end":26694.48,"text":"繼續處理我們委員的提案"},{"start":26695.18,"end":26698.18,"text":"那剛剛委員有對於投票"},{"start":26699.28,"end":26700.28,"text":"有意見"},{"start":26700.49,"end":26702.49,"text":"那所以是不是要重新投票"},{"start":26704.68,"end":26708.68,"text":"主席這個針對就是把這一個提案保留在委員會"},{"start":26708.68,"end":26710.68,"text":"我要求重新表決"},{"start":26710.68,"end":26711.68,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":26712.31,"end":26713.31,"text":"收到指令"},{"start":26713.83,"end":26715.83,"text":"只要有委員提出議事程序的指令"},{"start":26715.83,"end":26717.83,"text":"我們能接收的我們一定全力協助"},{"start":26717.83,"end":26718.83,"text":"請點人數"},{"start":26724.51,"end":26725.51,"text":"在場8位"},{"start":26726.09,"end":26727.09,"text":"現場提案一案"},{"start":26727.09,"end":26729.09,"text":"第一案我們有委員提案"},{"start":26729.09,"end":26731.09,"text":"所以我們要來處理"},{"start":26731.09,"end":26734.09,"text":"本案是否照案通過修正通過或者是保留"},{"start":26734.09,"end":26738.09,"text":"那有委員提案保留在委員會"},{"start":26738.92,"end":26740.92,"text":"那不用送出院會"},{"start":26740.92,"end":26742.92,"text":"那我們針對這個提案"},{"start":26743.8,"end":26745.8,"text":"現階段要來投票"},{"start":26746.65,"end":26748.65,"text":"請舉手投票"},{"start":26749.28,"end":26752.28,"text":"贊成本提案保留在委員會"},{"start":26752.28,"end":26754.28,"text":"不用送出院會"},{"start":26755.08,"end":26756.08,"text":"贊成者請舉手"},{"start":26761.58,"end":26762.58,"text":"好 七位"},{"start":26763.72,"end":26765.72,"text":"反對者請舉手"},{"start":26766.26,"end":26767.26,"text":"好 一位"},{"start":26768.15,"end":26769.15,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26770.63,"end":26771.63,"text":"下一步"},{"start":26772.89,"end":26773.89,"text":"贊成者"},{"start":26774.76,"end":26775.76,"text":"為多數"},{"start":26775.76,"end":26776.76,"text":"本案"},{"start":26777.06,"end":26779.06,"text":"通過保留在委員會"},{"start":26781.14,"end":26782.14,"text":"接著"},{"start":26788.38,"end":26789.38,"text":"下一步"},{"start":26789.38,"end":26790.38,"text":"含微修正"},{"start":26790.38,"end":26793.38,"text":"高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘"},{"start":26793.38,"end":26794.38,"text":"停聘或支援辦法"},{"start":26794.38,"end":26795.38,"text":"部分條文案"},{"start":26795.48,"end":26796.48,"text":"連同"},{"start":26799.45,"end":26801.45,"text":"另定期繼續審查"},{"start":26801.45,"end":26802.45,"text":"接著我們要處理"},{"start":26802.94,"end":26803.94,"text":"第二案"},{"start":26805.46,"end":26806.46,"text":"請舉手"},{"start":26807.99,"end":26808.99,"text":"請"},{"start":26812.32,"end":26813.32,"text":"我們接著繼續"},{"start":26814.08,"end":26816.08,"text":"審理第二案"},{"start":26816.08,"end":26818.08,"text":"繼續審查教育部含微修正"},{"start":26818.08,"end":26821.08,"text":"公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法"},{"start":26821.08,"end":26822.08,"text":"第五條"},{"start":26822.08,"end":26823.08,"text":"第二條之一"},{"start":26823.08,"end":26824.08,"text":"條文案"},{"start":26824.08,"end":26825.08,"text":"現在有委員提案"},{"start":26825.08,"end":26826.08,"text":"一案"},{"start":26826.08,"end":26827.08,"text":"請醫師人員宣讀"},{"start":26829.12,"end":26836.12,"text":"教育部以一五年一月十二日完成公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條"},{"start":26836.12,"end":26837.12,"text":"第六條之一"},{"start":26837.12,"end":26838.12,"text":"條文修正案"},{"start":26838.12,"end":26842.12,"text":"經第五會期教育局文化委員會第十七次全體委員會議"},{"start":26842.12,"end":26845.12,"text":"能認為有待修正之處"},{"start":26845.12,"end":26848.12,"text":"請教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":26848.12,"end":26852.12,"text":"依立法院職權行使法第六十二條規定"},{"start":26852.12,"end":26854.12,"text":"提報院會"},{"start":26854.97,"end":26858.97,"text":"立法院議員會議決後通知教育部更正該辦法"},{"start":26858.97,"end":26859.97,"text":"提案人羅廷瑋"},{"start":26859.97,"end":26861.97,"text":"連署人葉元之蔡村仇"},{"start":26861.97,"end":26862.97,"text":"羅志強"},{"start":26862.97,"end":26863.97,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":26864.42,"end":26867.42,"text":"好我們接下來"},{"start":26867.42,"end":26870.42,"text":"我們是不是就請問一下"},{"start":26870.42,"end":26871.42,"text":"那我是提案委員"},{"start":26871.42,"end":26873.42,"text":"那我的意見大概就差不多"},{"start":26873.42,"end":26875.42,"text":"跟上一案都一樣"},{"start":26875.42,"end":26879.42,"text":"那我們依據九十四年九十五年所提議的"},{"start":26879.42,"end":26881.42,"text":"他並沒有違背母法的前提"},{"start":26881.42,"end":26883.42,"text":"但是與現場教學狀況"},{"start":26883.42,"end":26885.42,"text":"實際違反了"},{"start":26885.42,"end":26887.42,"text":"有一些缺失"},{"start":26887.42,"end":26888.42,"text":"也罔顧民意"},{"start":26888.42,"end":26889.42,"text":"希望呢"},{"start":26889.42,"end":26892.42,"text":"我們教育部修正後再送立法院備查"},{"start":26892.42,"end":26894.42,"text":"以上簡單的提案說明"},{"start":26894.42,"end":26897.42,"text":"那也請器官代表表示意見"},{"start":26905.68,"end":26907.68,"text":"謝謝召委"},{"start":26907.68,"end":26910.68,"text":"那在考核辦法配合"},{"start":26910.68,"end":26914.68,"text":"一月十二號修正解騙辦法的同時"},{"start":26914.68,"end":26916.68,"text":"那麼做了第五條"},{"start":26916.68,"end":26918.68,"text":"第六條之一"},{"start":26918.68,"end":26920.68,"text":"比較完整的配套"},{"start":26920.68,"end":26925.68,"text":"那如果在立法院的職權行使法"},{"start":26925.68,"end":26928.68,"text":"那委員這邊有就"},{"start":26928.85,"end":26930.85,"text":"比較有違反了母法的部分"},{"start":26930.85,"end":26932.85,"text":"給我們指導"},{"start":26932.85,"end":26935.85,"text":"那麼在未來修正的就比較能聚焦"},{"start":26935.85,"end":26937.85,"text":"那麼在送備查的時候"},{"start":26937.85,"end":26939.85,"text":"也不要能夠通過"},{"start":26939.85,"end":26941.85,"text":"那是不是再請委員這邊"},{"start":26941.85,"end":26944.85,"text":"再給我們一個比較明確的指導方向之後"},{"start":26944.85,"end":26947.85,"text":"那我們更具體的來做更正補充完畢"},{"start":26950.95,"end":26952.95,"text":"不好意思所以有提案的修正文字嗎"},{"start":26955.63,"end":26957.63,"text":"好"},{"start":26957.45,"end":26959.45,"text":"接著我們要來處理本提案"},{"start":26960.25,"end":26963.25,"text":"詐案通過 修正通過 或者是保留"},{"start":26964.13,"end":26966.13,"text":"主席可以發言嗎 謝謝"},{"start":26967.98,"end":26969.98,"text":"可以發言了 好 謝謝主席"},{"start":26970.24,"end":26972.24,"text":"現在處理的這個提案"},{"start":26972.24,"end":26974.24,"text":"我要再唸一次給大家聽"},{"start":26973.85,"end":26977.85,"text":"提案 教育部於115年1月12日完成"},{"start":26977.85,"end":26980.85,"text":"公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法"},{"start":26980.85,"end":26984.85,"text":"第五條 第六條之一條文修正案"},{"start":26984.85,"end":26986.85,"text":"經第五會期教育局文化委員會"},{"start":26986.85,"end":26988.85,"text":"第17次全體委員會議"},{"start":26988.85,"end":26990.85,"text":"仍認為有待修正之處"},{"start":26990.85,"end":26992.85,"text":"請教育部修正後"},{"start":26993.63,"end":26995.63,"text":"再送立法院備查"},{"start":26995.63,"end":26997.63,"text":"依立法院職權刑事法第62條規定"},{"start":26997.63,"end":26999.63,"text":"提報立法院院會會議議決後"},{"start":26999.63,"end":27001.63,"text":"通知教育部更正辦法"},{"start":27001.63,"end":27003.63,"text":"一樣 邏輯錯誤"},{"start":27003.63,"end":27005.63,"text":"一樣 沒有指出"},{"start":27005.63,"end":27007.63,"text":"委員您認為哪裡應該要修正"},{"start":27007.63,"end":27009.63,"text":"而且我再一次說"},{"start":27009.63,"end":27011.63,"text":"你剛剛不斷引用20年前"},{"start":27011.63,"end":27013.63,"text":"在教文化委員會曾經發生的事情"},{"start":27013.63,"end":27015.63,"text":"但是先不管當時的情況"},{"start":27015.63,"end":27017.63,"text":"跟現在的情況一不一樣"},{"start":27017.63,"end":27019.63,"text":"但是至少當時提案的委員"},{"start":27019.63,"end":27021.63,"text":"勇敢的說出他們認為"},{"start":27021.63,"end":27023.63,"text":"要嘛就是背離名義"},{"start":27023.63,"end":27025.63,"text":"要嘛就是沒有理解"},{"start":27025.63,"end":27027.63,"text":"現場老師的困境"},{"start":27027.63,"end":27029.63,"text":"可是我現在手上"},{"start":27029.63,"end":27031.63,"text":"羅廷維委員做主題案的這份提案"},{"start":27031.63,"end":27033.63,"text":"甚至連自己的主張"},{"start":27033.63,"end":27035.63,"text":"自己認為哪裡應該要更正"},{"start":27035.63,"end":27037.63,"text":"要給教育部什麼指導"},{"start":27037.63,"end":27039.63,"text":"完全說不出來"},{"start":27039.63,"end":27041.63,"text":"我也非常好奇到底是為什麼"},{"start":27041.63,"end":27043.63,"text":"而連署人葉元之委員"},{"start":27043.63,"end":27045.63,"text":"蔡春筹委員 羅志強委員"},{"start":27045.63,"end":27047.63,"text":"一樣在今天很可惜"},{"start":27047.63,"end":27049.63,"text":"都沒有聽到更進一步的說法"},{"start":27049.63,"end":27051.63,"text":"我也要再次提醒主席"},{"start":27051.63,"end":27053.63,"text":"也提醒今天所有在場的人"},{"start":27054.62,"end":27056.62,"text":"如果校事會議是"},{"start":27056.62,"end":27058.62,"text":"現在在黨委員他們認為"},{"start":27058.62,"end":27060.62,"text":"他們自己是最關心的一群人"},{"start":27060.62,"end":27062.62,"text":"他們認為自己在校事會議上"},{"start":27062.62,"end":27064.62,"text":"是所有跟教師站在一起的人"},{"start":27064.62,"end":27066.62,"text":"那就我就問"},{"start":27066.62,"end":27068.62,"text":"今天下午國民黨的"},{"start":27068.62,"end":27070.62,"text":"教文化委員會的委員"},{"start":27070.34,"end":27072.34,"text":"葉元之委員"},{"start":27071.93,"end":27073.93,"text":"葛如軍委員"},{"start":27073.47,"end":27075.47,"text":"謝龍介委員"},{"start":27075.2,"end":27077.2,"text":"柯志恩委員 羅志強委員"},{"start":27077.2,"end":27079.2,"text":"我們沒有看到你們的發聲"},{"start":27079.2,"end":27081.2,"text":"我們沒有看到你們出現"},{"start":27081.2,"end":27083.2,"text":"我們沒有看到你們持續"},{"start":27083.2,"end":27085.2,"text":"在修法的版本內容上"},{"start":27085.2,"end":27087.2,"text":"關注這個議題"},{"start":27087.2,"end":27089.2,"text":"我們更不知道"},{"start":27089.87,"end":27091.87,"text":"葉元之委員也好"},{"start":27091.87,"end":27093.87,"text":"羅志強委員也好"},{"start":27093.87,"end":27095.87,"text":"為什麼要簽羅庭委員這個提案"},{"start":27095.87,"end":27097.87,"text":"完全沒有說明的提案"},{"start":27097.87,"end":27099.87,"text":"所以我要再次強調"},{"start":27099.87,"end":27101.87,"text":"這是一個應該要撤回"},{"start":27101.87,"end":27103.87,"text":"或者是主席您自己說清楚"},{"start":27103.87,"end":27105.87,"text":"到底要叫一部更正"},{"start":27105.87,"end":27107.87,"text":"什麼內容的提案"},{"start":27123.07,"end":27125.07,"text":"好 還有委員要發言嗎"},{"start":27128.39,"end":27130.39,"text":"其實剛剛主席在"},{"start":27130.39,"end":27132.39,"text":"一直不斷的"},{"start":27132.39,"end":27134.39,"text":"這個補充說明的過程"},{"start":27134.39,"end":27136.39,"text":"主席自己也已經"},{"start":27136.39,"end":27138.39,"text":"講到重點了"},{"start":27138.39,"end":27140.39,"text":"您今天提的兩個提案"},{"start":27140.39,"end":27142.39,"text":"並沒有違反"},{"start":27142.39,"end":27144.39,"text":"立法院職權刑事法62條所載"},{"start":27144.39,"end":27146.39,"text":"有違逆"},{"start":27146.39,"end":27148.39,"text":"母法教師法29條之處"},{"start":27148.39,"end":27150.39,"text":"其實剛剛張偉"},{"start":27150.39,"end":27152.39,"text":"你已經多次說"},{"start":27152.39,"end":27154.39,"text":"並沒有違反母法"},{"start":27156.59,"end":27158.59,"text":"你已經非常清楚"},{"start":27158.59,"end":27160.59,"text":"自己提案都知道"},{"start":27160.59,"end":27162.59,"text":"並沒有違反母法"},{"start":27162.59,"end":27164.59,"text":"你剛剛講了很多次"},{"start":27164.59,"end":27166.59,"text":"但是很遺憾"},{"start":27166.59,"end":27168.59,"text":"您用了一個民國95年"},{"start":27168.59,"end":27170.59,"text":"20多年前立法院的"},{"start":27170.59,"end":27172.59,"text":"所謂的什麼慣例"},{"start":27172.59,"end":27174.59,"text":"我們真的不清楚那個時候的"},{"start":27174.59,"end":27176.59,"text":"時空當下發生了什麼事"},{"start":27176.59,"end":27178.59,"text":"但是立法院"},{"start":27178.59,"end":27180.59,"text":"就應當依法守法"},{"start":27180.59,"end":27182.59,"text":"我們依據的"},{"start":27182.59,"end":27184.59,"text":"就是職權刑事法62條"},{"start":27184.59,"end":27186.59,"text":"所以當年20多年前"},{"start":27188.53,"end":27190.53,"text":"沒有依法"},{"start":27190.02,"end":27192.02,"text":"那為什麼"},{"start":27191.32,"end":27193.32,"text":"20多年後的2026年"},{"start":27193.32,"end":27195.32,"text":"我們要依循20幾年前"},{"start":27195.32,"end":27197.32,"text":"錯誤的做法"},{"start":27197.32,"end":27199.32,"text":"然後要持續的"},{"start":27199.32,"end":27201.32,"text":"無法炮製呢"},{"start":27201.31,"end":27203.31,"text":"我覺得這是我一個很大的質疑"},{"start":27204.85,"end":27206.85,"text":"所以剛剛主席自己在補充說明"},{"start":27206.85,"end":27208.85,"text":"你已經提到"},{"start":27208.85,"end":27210.85,"text":"不管剛剛的提案"},{"start":27210.85,"end":27212.85,"text":"第一案或是現在的第二案"},{"start":27212.85,"end":27214.85,"text":"確實都沒有"},{"start":27214.85,"end":27216.85,"text":"違反母法之處"},{"start":27216.85,"end":27218.85,"text":"換言之你也很清楚"},{"start":27218.85,"end":27220.85,"text":"並沒有要求教育部"},{"start":27220.85,"end":27222.85,"text":"依法要予以廢止"},{"start":27222.85,"end":27224.85,"text":"或是修正"},{"start":27224.85,"end":27226.85,"text":"之處的可能性"},{"start":27226.85,"end":27228.85,"text":"可行行"},{"start":27229.05,"end":27231.05,"text":"您比誰都還清楚不過了"},{"start":27231.05,"end":27233.05,"text":"因為你剛剛已經多次說明了"},{"start":27233.05,"end":27235.05,"text":"所以早知如此"},{"start":27235.05,"end":27237.05,"text":"你為什麼硬要"},{"start":27237.05,"end":27239.05,"text":"還是要針對"},{"start":27239.05,"end":27241.05,"text":"不明不白"},{"start":27240.47,"end":27242.47,"text":"違反法規的提案"},{"start":27242.47,"end":27244.47,"text":"又要做處理呢"},{"start":27245.89,"end":27247.89,"text":"所以這個案子跟上面的一個案子一樣"},{"start":27247.89,"end":27249.89,"text":"民進黨團的主張"},{"start":27249.89,"end":27251.89,"text":"依舊是認為"},{"start":27251.89,"end":27253.89,"text":"如果委員指正的"},{"start":27253.89,"end":27255.89,"text":"出來"},{"start":27255.89,"end":27257.89,"text":"能夠指明哪些條文違反了"},{"start":27260.22,"end":27262.22,"text":"母法授權"},{"start":27262.22,"end":27264.22,"text":"那我們當然應當來討論"},{"start":27264.22,"end":27266.22,"text":"如果您沒有辦法宰民"},{"start":27266.22,"end":27268.22,"text":"而且你剛剛也說了"},{"start":27268.22,"end":27270.22,"text":"沒有違反母法之處"},{"start":27270.22,"end":27272.22,"text":"那就代表這個提案完全不合理"},{"start":27272.22,"end":27274.22,"text":"不正當"},{"start":27274.22,"end":27276.22,"text":"這個提案也不應當拿來這裡"},{"start":27276.64,"end":27278.64,"text":"一定要來處理"},{"start":27278.39,"end":27280.39,"text":"所以我補充說明"},{"start":27280.39,"end":27282.39,"text":"我只是用您剛剛所說的"},{"start":27282.39,"end":27284.39,"text":"話術來回答"},{"start":27284.39,"end":27286.39,"text":"您自己而已"},{"start":27289.22,"end":27291.22,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":27291.22,"end":27293.22,"text":"我想再補充說明一下"},{"start":27293.22,"end":27295.22,"text":"那剛剛我很清楚的喔"},{"start":27295.22,"end":27297.22,"text":"我是引用94年95年"},{"start":27297.22,"end":27299.22,"text":"當時所做的決議"},{"start":27299.22,"end":27301.22,"text":"他們直接提到"},{"start":27301.22,"end":27303.22,"text":"為改善目前教師申訴"},{"start":27303.22,"end":27305.22,"text":"實際的運作"},{"start":27305.22,"end":27307.22,"text":"的缺失"},{"start":27307.22,"end":27309.22,"text":"反正請教育部重新斟酌"},{"start":27309.22,"end":27311.22,"text":"研擬後再送本院備查"},{"start":27311.22,"end":27313.22,"text":"當時的時工背景"},{"start":27313.22,"end":27315.22,"text":"並沒有提及有無違反母法"},{"start":27316.65,"end":27318.65,"text":"我是在講解當時的時空背景"},{"start":27320.06,"end":27322.06,"text":"第二個95年這一案"},{"start":27322.06,"end":27324.06,"text":"是給予國民小學"},{"start":27324.06,"end":27326.06,"text":"國民中學班級編制"},{"start":27326.06,"end":27328.06,"text":"及教職員原額編制的準則"},{"start":27328.06,"end":27330.06,"text":"他所提到的理由"},{"start":27330.06,"end":27332.06,"text":"是罔顧民意及實際狀況"},{"start":27332.06,"end":27334.06,"text":"故予以退回"},{"start":27334.06,"end":27336.06,"text":"那兩案呢"},{"start":27336.06,"end":27338.06,"text":"都是沒有提及"},{"start":27338.06,"end":27340.06,"text":"有無違背母法"},{"start":27340.06,"end":27342.06,"text":"所以是有潛力的"},{"start":27342.06,"end":27344.06,"text":"但如果委員"},{"start":27344.06,"end":27346.06,"text":"真要說"},{"start":27346.06,"end":27348.06,"text":"我們在審理"},{"start":27348.06,"end":27350.06,"text":"高級中的以下"},{"start":27350.06,"end":27352.06,"text":"學校教師解聘不續聘停聘"},{"start":27352.06,"end":27354.06,"text":"之前的辦法"},{"start":27354.06,"end":27356.06,"text":"部分條文修正"},{"start":27356.06,"end":27358.06,"text":"是否有違反母法"},{"start":27358.06,"end":27360.06,"text":"我想"},{"start":27359.31,"end":27361.31,"text":"我們都不可以直接下定論"},{"start":27361.31,"end":27363.31,"text":"有跟無"},{"start":27363.31,"end":27365.31,"text":"我們畢竟不是大法官"},{"start":27366.26,"end":27368.26,"text":"但是"},{"start":27367.52,"end":27369.52,"text":"經過全國教師公會"},{"start":27369.52,"end":27371.52,"text":"總聯合會"},{"start":27371.52,"end":27373.52,"text":"他們不斷的在倡議"},{"start":27373.95,"end":27375.95,"text":"其授權的母法"},{"start":27375.95,"end":27377.95,"text":"教師法相關的條文"},{"start":27377.95,"end":27379.95,"text":"第一條立法目的"},{"start":27379.95,"end":27381.95,"text":"就揭示的立法精神"},{"start":27381.95,"end":27383.95,"text":"是以法律保障教師的工作權"},{"start":27383.95,"end":27385.95,"text":"以及專業地位"},{"start":27385.95,"end":27387.95,"text":"使教師能夠在程序正義"},{"start":27387.95,"end":27389.95,"text":"以及專業自主的環境中"},{"start":27389.95,"end":27391.95,"text":"從事教育工作"},{"start":27391.95,"end":27393.95,"text":"以達到成為國家"},{"start":27393.95,"end":27395.95,"text":"培育人才的重要使命"},{"start":27395.95,"end":27397.95,"text":"所以我們現階段"},{"start":27397.95,"end":27399.95,"text":"為什麼要來處理"},{"start":27399.95,"end":27401.95,"text":"相關的"},{"start":27401.83,"end":27403.83,"text":"高級中等以下學校教師"},{"start":27403.83,"end":27405.83,"text":"解聘不續聘停聘"},{"start":27405.83,"end":27407.83,"text":"之前辦法"},{"start":27407.83,"end":27409.83,"text":"就是因為他們認為"},{"start":27409.83,"end":27411.83,"text":"這些相關的辦法"},{"start":27411.83,"end":27413.83,"text":"已經影響到了"},{"start":27413.83,"end":27415.83,"text":"教師續聘的權益"},{"start":27415.83,"end":27417.83,"text":"應該要受法律的保障"},{"start":27417.83,"end":27419.83,"text":"的權益"},{"start":27419.83,"end":27421.83,"text":"所以他們都清楚明確的指出"},{"start":27421.83,"end":27423.83,"text":"這些法令"},{"start":27423.83,"end":27425.83,"text":"這些辦法已經侵害到"},{"start":27425.83,"end":27427.83,"text":"他們的工作權"},{"start":27427.83,"end":27429.83,"text":"我想這些不管是教師會"},{"start":27429.83,"end":27431.83,"text":"不管是總聯合會"},{"start":27431.83,"end":27433.83,"text":"不管是台教產"},{"start":27433.83,"end":27435.83,"text":"不管是我們的"},{"start":27435.83,"end":27437.83,"text":"教育產業"},{"start":27437.83,"end":27439.83,"text":"相關的團體"},{"start":27439.83,"end":27441.83,"text":"都不斷的在倡議"},{"start":27441.83,"end":27443.83,"text":"我想教育部都比我們更清楚"},{"start":27443.83,"end":27445.83,"text":"這些法令"},{"start":27445.83,"end":27447.83,"text":"哪些應該要修正"},{"start":27449.08,"end":27451.08,"text":"在更新以後"},{"start":27451.08,"end":27453.08,"text":"再請立法院"},{"start":27453.08,"end":27455.08,"text":"備查"},{"start":27454.33,"end":27456.33,"text":"我想這個部分也跟大家一併說明"},{"start":27456.33,"end":27458.33,"text":"我想不需要在這邊"},{"start":27458.33,"end":27460.33,"text":"特別的"},{"start":27460.56,"end":27462.56,"text":"甄婕典在其他委員"},{"start":27462.56,"end":27464.56,"text":"自己提案"},{"start":27464.56,"end":27466.56,"text":"還是要請委員自行提案"},{"start":27467.66,"end":27469.66,"text":"接著我們"},{"start":27470.06,"end":27472.06,"text":"因為剛剛議事人員"},{"start":27472.06,"end":27474.06,"text":"有提醒"},{"start":27474.06,"end":27476.06,"text":"配合第一案已經暫時"},{"start":27476.06,"end":27478.06,"text":"保留在委員會"},{"start":27478.49,"end":27480.49,"text":"我們今天"},{"start":27480.49,"end":27482.49,"text":"第二個提案"},{"start":27482.49,"end":27484.49,"text":"我們在處理的時候"},{"start":27484.49,"end":27486.49,"text":"也只能夠繼續定期審查"},{"start":27486.49,"end":27488.49,"text":"以上跟所有的委員"},{"start":27488.49,"end":27490.49,"text":"特別報告"},{"start":27490.24,"end":27492.24,"text":"所以我們宣讀"},{"start":27492.24,"end":27494.24,"text":"教育部韓圍修正"},{"start":27494.24,"end":27496.24,"text":"公立高級中等以下學校"},{"start":27496.24,"end":27498.24,"text":"教師成績考核辦法第五條第六條"},{"start":27498.24,"end":27500.24,"text":"條文案"},{"start":27500.24,"end":27502.24,"text":"定期再繼續審查"},{"start":27506.1,"end":27508.1,"text":"接著我們法律"},{"start":27508.1,"end":27510.1,"text":"法案"},{"start":27509.9,"end":27511.9,"text":"討論已經協商"},{"start":27511.9,"end":27513.9,"text":"我們繼續進行"},{"start":27513.9,"end":27515.9,"text":"法案主條審查"},{"start":27515.9,"end":27517.9,"text":"請議事人員宣讀新增的條文"},{"start":27517.9,"end":27519.9,"text":"提案"},{"start":27518.71,"end":27520.71,"text":"以及進行討論協商時"},{"start":27520.71,"end":27522.71,"text":"如果有新的"},{"start":27522.71,"end":27524.71,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":27524.71,"end":27526.71,"text":"一併宣讀討論時請參閱"},{"start":27526.71,"end":27528.71,"text":"教育部提供的"},{"start":27528.71,"end":27530.71,"text":"提案"},{"start":27530.23,"end":27532.23,"text":"會的討論版本書面資料"},{"start":27532.23,"end":27534.23,"text":"並列入公報記錄"},{"start":27534.23,"end":27536.23,"text":"請宣讀"},{"start":27540.81,"end":27542.81,"text":"宣讀"},{"start":27545.22,"end":27547.22,"text":"請問一下要宣讀多久"},{"start":27554.63,"end":27556.63,"text":"我先去"},{"start":27556.05,"end":27558.05,"text":"請問主席要宣讀多久"},{"start":27560.46,"end":27562.46,"text":"是一樣午餐法嗎"},{"start":27564.66,"end":27566.66,"text":"因為有三四十個案子"},{"start":27568.44,"end":27570.44,"text":"請問要宣讀多久"},{"start":27571.04,"end":27573.04,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":27578.82,"end":27580.82,"text":"主席也沒有喊休息"},{"start":27580.82,"end":27582.82,"text":"那我們就簡單看一下"},{"start":27582.82,"end":27584.82,"text":"等一下如果要做營養午餐法"},{"start":27584.82,"end":27586.82,"text":"現場一樣"},{"start":27586.82,"end":27588.82,"text":"國民黨委員一樣都沒有出席"},{"start":27589.7,"end":27592.22,"text":"一樣 不要把自己最關心要午餐的人"},{"start":27592.22,"end":27593.62,"text":"上一次先行離會"},{"start":27593.62,"end":27594.98,"text":"這一次沒有出席"},{"start":27594.98,"end":27596.780000000002,"text":"這就是現在國民黨委員的狀態"},{"start":27604.15,"end":27607.510000000002,"text":"好 我們現在繼續審查"},{"start":27610.51,"end":27611.87,"text":"學校共產法"},{"start":27613.84,"end":27614.4,"text":"草案"},{"start":27618.71,"end":27619.989999999998,"text":"學校午餐集"},{"start":27620.74,"end":27624.140000000003,"text":"飲食教育條例相關草案繼續審查"},{"start":27624.140000000003,"end":27628.66,"text":"本案前經114年11月27日召開第四會期"},{"start":27628.66,"end":27632.980000000003,"text":"教育及文化委員會第八次全體委員會審查的結果"},{"start":27632.980000000003,"end":27633.980000000003,"text":"法案名稱"},{"start":27633.980000000003,"end":27636.460000000003,"text":"趙委員柯志恩等21人"},{"start":27636.460000000003,"end":27638.86,"text":"委員陳培宇等26人提案通過"},{"start":27639.8,"end":27642.96,"text":"第二 各章張明君不予採納"},{"start":27642.96,"end":27645.28,"text":"第三 第一條暫時保留"},{"start":27645.28,"end":27647.32,"text":"第二條修正通過"},{"start":27647.32,"end":27649.32,"text":"現在進行逐條審查"},{"start":27653.75,"end":27658.47,"text":"好 跟委員報告他已經在宣讀了"},{"start":27658.47,"end":27661.47,"text":"我們可以進行逐條審查"},{"start":27664.18,"end":27666.379999999997,"text":"法庭的指揮不適評論"},{"start":27666.379999999997,"end":27669.3,"text":"除非在立法制推動時相對化"},{"start":27669.3,"end":27671.34,"text":"文化組織及其他各族群眾"},{"start":27671.34,"end":27672.86,"text":"是有權適應化之一"},{"start":27672.86,"end":27674.38,"text":"就要解決它事項"},{"start":27674.38,"end":27676.54,"text":"要求中央委員組織及其他各族群眾"},{"start":27676.54,"end":27677.98,"text":"就要阻藏免於誇解"},{"start":27677.98,"end":27679.3,"text":"而是用大致推理"},{"start":27679.3,"end":27680.78,"text":"適應化及規劃"},{"start":27680.78,"end":27684.059999999998,"text":"其其人家是有權適應化"},{"start":27684.059999999998,"end":27685.82,"text":"學校共產法"},{"start":27685.82,"end":27687.739999999998,"text":"阻阻適應化"},{"start":27687.739999999998,"end":27689.78,"text":"進行阻藏適應化"},{"start":27689.78,"end":27692.34,"text":"應用主項和思想是更好極"},{"start":27692.34,"end":27694.02,"text":"推動文化及其他各族群眾"},{"start":27694.02,"end":27696.579999999998,"text":"提起民意的思想與消耗思想"},{"start":27696.579999999998,"end":27697.82,"text":"我們相當重要的"},{"start":27727.82,"end":27729.54,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27730.3,"end":27732.3,"text":"好 我們現在處理第一條"},{"start":27732.3,"end":27734.539999999997,"text":"因為第一條上次是暫時保留"},{"start":27735.28,"end":27737.32,"text":"請問由委員有意見"},{"start":27741.46,"end":27742.5,"text":"請問由委員有意見"},{"start":27742.46,"end":27743.5,"text":"請問由委員有意見"},{"start":27744.46,"end":27745.5,"text":"請問由委員有意見"},{"start":27745.600000000002,"end":27748.600000000002,"text":"上一次保留是不是就持續保留"},{"start":27748.600000000002,"end":27750.16,"text":"我們應該是順著"},{"start":27750.16,"end":27752.16,"text":"繼續下面討論條文吧"},{"start":27752.16,"end":27753.56,"text":"是這樣沒錯"},{"start":27753.56,"end":27755.24,"text":"我剛剛有跟醫事人員確認"},{"start":27755.24,"end":27757.440000000002,"text":"是不是就直接照第三條來處理"},{"start":27757.440000000002,"end":27758.72,"text":"但醫事人員還是提醒"},{"start":27758.72,"end":27761.120000000003,"text":"希望從第一條來處理"},{"start":27761.120000000003,"end":27762.600000000002,"text":"那委員可以提案保留 沒關係"},{"start":27767.52,"end":27769.32,"text":"不是 醫事人員說明一下"},{"start":27769.32,"end":27771.6,"text":"為什麼上一次保留"},{"start":27771.6,"end":27774.079999999998,"text":"為什麼你要我們再重新討論一次"},{"start":27777.84,"end":27778.84,"text":"我報告一下"},{"start":27778.84,"end":27781.24,"text":"上一次的保留是保留在委員會"},{"start":27781.24,"end":27783.640000000003,"text":"所以這一次在審的時候"},{"start":27783.640000000003,"end":27785.440000000002,"text":"我們還是照順序"},{"start":27785.440000000002,"end":27787.440000000002,"text":"一條文順序從第一條再開始"},{"start":27787.440000000002,"end":27789.04,"text":"那如果說要再保留"},{"start":27789.04,"end":27791.04,"text":"那我們就是再往後再看"},{"start":27792.73,"end":27795.93,"text":"因為我的理解是接下去討論不是嗎"},{"start":27796.83,"end":27798.23,"text":"因為他的意思就是說"},{"start":27798.23,"end":27799.63,"text":"因為是保留在委員會"},{"start":27799.63,"end":27802.030000000002,"text":"所以重啟委員會的審查的時候"},{"start":27802.030000000002,"end":27804.030000000002,"text":"就又再重新開啟第一條"},{"start":27805.65,"end":27808.050000000003,"text":"所以這依程序不就應該從"},{"start":27808.050000000003,"end":27809.25,"text":"第三條開始嗎"},{"start":27811.64,"end":27814.04,"text":"因為如果你第一條上次就保留"},{"start":27814.04,"end":27816.04,"text":"現在再回來重新討論一次"},{"start":27817.9,"end":27818.7,"text":"有必要嗎"},{"start":27822.51,"end":27823.309999999998,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":27823.309999999998,"end":27825.91,"text":"那委員建議我們從第三條開始"},{"start":27826.7,"end":27828.3,"text":"因為第一條應該還是"},{"start":27828.3,"end":27830.3,"text":"就是上次討論了很久"},{"start":27830.3,"end":27831.3,"text":"就沒有共識"},{"start":27832.13,"end":27834.73,"text":"所以我們應該就往下面的條文吧"},{"start":27834.73,"end":27834.93,"text":"好"},{"start":27835.78,"end":27838.78,"text":"那我們就第二條因為已經通過了"},{"start":27841.28,"end":27841.879999999997,"text":"我們"},{"start":27842.53,"end":27844.53,"text":"從第三條開始"},{"start":27844.53,"end":27845.329999999998,"text":"第三條"},{"start":27851.37,"end":27853.57,"text":"第三條台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":27853.57,"end":27855.969999999998,"text":"第三條等36個提案"},{"start":27855.969999999998,"end":27857.969999999998,"text":"以及委員柯志恩等人"},{"start":27857.969999999998,"end":27859.77,"text":"所提修正動議"},{"start":27859.77,"end":27861.37,"text":"我們來進行討論"},{"start":27861.37,"end":27863.57,"text":"那柯志恩委員的版本"},{"start":27863.57,"end":27865.17,"text":"相關的條文修正"},{"start":27865.17,"end":27867.37,"text":"都發給大家請大家參閱"},{"start":27867.37,"end":27870.17,"text":"我們簡單來講就是"},{"start":27870.17,"end":27873.57,"text":"已經整合相關委員的版本"},{"start":27874.23,"end":27875.829999999998,"text":"那也請"},{"start":27875.829999999998,"end":27878.43,"text":"就不會要照原本的"},{"start":27878.43,"end":27879.63,"text":"36個版本"},{"start":27880.65,"end":27882.65,"text":"現在"},{"start":27883.26,"end":27885.859999999997,"text":"各個委員有共識都已經將"},{"start":27885.859999999997,"end":27888.46,"text":"最大的共識的修正動議"},{"start":27888.46,"end":27890.46,"text":"提供給所有的委員來參考"},{"start":27891.21,"end":27892.41,"text":"我們看到第三條"},{"start":27904,"end":27905.6,"text":"欸欸欸我我對對對"},{"start":27905.6,"end":27907.6,"text":"我有我的這個這個"},{"start":27907.6,"end":27908.6,"text":"我自己的就好了"},{"start":27910.53,"end":27911.129999999997,"text":"就行"},{"start":27912.22,"end":27914.22,"text":"好"},{"start":27918.85,"end":27920.25,"text":"不好意思我們就"},{"start":27920.25,"end":27921.449999999997,"text":"直接看到"},{"start":27921.449999999997,"end":27923.25,"text":"柯志恩委員的修正動議"},{"start":27923.25,"end":27925.85,"text":"還有民進民眾黨的"},{"start":27925.85,"end":27926.25,"text":"版本"},{"start":27926.25,"end":27928.85,"text":"那還有教育部的條文"},{"start":27928.85,"end":27929.85,"text":"建議"},{"start":27929.85,"end":27931.649999999998,"text":"那第三條請委員"},{"start":27931.649999999998,"end":27932.649999999998,"text":"舉手發言謝謝"},{"start":27933.9,"end":27934.300000000003,"text":"就行"},{"start":27935.66,"end":27937.26,"text":"我是建議"},{"start":27937.26,"end":27940.06,"text":"因為第三條其實相對簡單"},{"start":27940.06,"end":27942.26,"text":"那那個我就覺得就是"},{"start":27942.26,"end":27944.86,"text":"依照教育部的建議文字"},{"start":27944.86,"end":27946.06,"text":"這樣來處理"},{"start":27946.06,"end":27946.66,"text":"以上"},{"start":27947.4,"end":27947.800000000003,"text":"好"},{"start":27949.28,"end":27950.879999999997,"text":"那還有沒有委員要發言"},{"start":27952.08,"end":27953.08,"text":"恭喜委員"},{"start":27957.53,"end":27957.93,"text":"好"},{"start":27958.42,"end":27958.92,"text":"好"},{"start":27959.69,"end":27962.289999999997,"text":"第三條這邊"},{"start":27962.289999999997,"end":27964.289999999997,"text":"就部門有要求這個學校依法"},{"start":27964.289999999997,"end":27966.289999999997,"text":"辦理午餐跟食慾"},{"start":27966.289999999997,"end":27968.289999999997,"text":"那這個跟我的第三條的精神"},{"start":27968.289999999997,"end":27969.289999999997,"text":"相同"},{"start":27969.289999999997,"end":27970.09,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":27970.09,"end":27972.289999999997,"text":"其實我剛剛附議一下"},{"start":27972.289999999997,"end":27973.289999999997,"text":"那個林一己委員"},{"start":27973.289999999997,"end":27974.89,"text":"我們就尊重"},{"start":27974.89,"end":27976.289999999997,"text":"就是照這個部分"},{"start":27977.83,"end":27978.230000000003,"text":"好"},{"start":27979.08,"end":27981.88,"text":"那個修法委員"},{"start":27983.48,"end":27984.48,"text":"一順序"},{"start":27985.78,"end":27986.78,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":27986.78,"end":27988.579999999998,"text":"這條在我自己的版本"},{"start":27988.579999999998,"end":27991.579999999998,"text":"我是有加上各級主管機關"},{"start":27991.579999999998,"end":27992.98,"text":"因為我覺得說"},{"start":27992.98,"end":27996.98,"text":"如果學校午餐及飲食教育的部分"},{"start":27996.98,"end":27999.18,"text":"在政策面及經費部分"},{"start":27999.18,"end":28000.78,"text":"也是有賴中央"},{"start":28000.78,"end":28003.78,"text":"及地方主管機關來協助學校處理"},{"start":28003.78,"end":28005.379999999997,"text":"所以我才會在我的"},{"start":28005.379999999997,"end":28007.18,"text":"這個學校的前面的加上"},{"start":28007.18,"end":28009.18,"text":"各級主管機關"},{"start":28009.18,"end":28010.379999999997,"text":"那因為教育部"},{"start":28010.379999999997,"end":28012.78,"text":"建議的條文是只有寫學校"},{"start":28012.78,"end":28014.579999999998,"text":"那我是建議這樣子加"},{"start":28014.58,"end":28016.18,"text":"但是如果教育部覺得說"},{"start":28016.18,"end":28017.38,"text":"他們的學校"},{"start":28017.38,"end":28019.780000000002,"text":"寫上學校這樣的量能是足夠的話"},{"start":28019.780000000002,"end":28020.58,"text":"我沒有意見"},{"start":28020.58,"end":28020.980000000003,"text":"以上"},{"start":28025.670000000002,"end":28026.47,"text":"陳培喻委員"},{"start":28026.47,"end":28026.670000000002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":28026.670000000002,"end":28027.07,"text":"好"},{"start":28027.07,"end":28028.07,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":28028.07,"end":28029.07,"text":"第三條"},{"start":28029.07,"end":28032.07,"text":"我其實跟修法委員有一樣的擔心"},{"start":28032.07,"end":28035.07,"text":"因為我知道教育局處會議上"},{"start":28035.07,"end":28038.07,"text":"或者是因為現在22個縣市的營養午餐"},{"start":28038.07,"end":28039.07,"text":"都是免費"},{"start":28039.07,"end":28040.27,"text":"如果我們的條文"},{"start":28040.27,"end":28042.07,"text":"現在還是寫原本的學校"},{"start":28042.07,"end":28043.670000000002,"text":"我其實會有一些擔心"},{"start":28043.670000000002,"end":28045.47,"text":"所以我也想要懇請主席"},{"start":28045.47,"end":28048.27,"text":"待會是不是在每一個委員都發言後"},{"start":28048.27,"end":28049.870000000003,"text":"讓國教署來說明"},{"start":28049.870000000003,"end":28051.47,"text":"目前教育部的版本裡面"},{"start":28051.47,"end":28053.47,"text":"雖然原本是寫學校"},{"start":28053.47,"end":28058.27,"text":"但是這個版本是在22個縣市都宣布免費之前"},{"start":28058.27,"end":28060.47,"text":"所以拜託教育部公開說明一下"},{"start":28060.47,"end":28062.07,"text":"現在如果這樣寫的版本"},{"start":28062.07,"end":28064.07,"text":"會不會對學校造成困擾"},{"start":28064.07,"end":28066.07,"text":"未來我們在依法行政的時候"},{"start":28066.07,"end":28068.670000000002,"text":"會不會是學校去承擔這麼多的業務"},{"start":28068.670000000002,"end":28069.27,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":28069.27,"end":28069.670000000002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":28071.92,"end":28072.719999999998,"text":"好 務事要委員"},{"start":28075.64,"end":28077.44,"text":"我進入我的條文之前"},{"start":28077.44,"end":28080.64,"text":"我是想先建議一下主席"},{"start":28080.64,"end":28083.44,"text":"因為今天的版本有40個版本"},{"start":28084.55,"end":28087.95,"text":"那非常多的委員並不在現場"},{"start":28087.95,"end":28090.75,"text":"所以我們是不是能夠在程序上"},{"start":28090.75,"end":28094.149999999998,"text":"就以在場的委員的版本來討論"},{"start":28094.149999999998,"end":28095.75,"text":"好 我覺得應該是這樣"},{"start":28095.75,"end":28097.149999999998,"text":"因為譬如說"},{"start":28097.149999999998,"end":28099.95,"text":"您一直在講柯志文委員的修正動議"},{"start":28099.95,"end":28101.75,"text":"但柯志文不在"},{"start":28102.97,"end":28104.97,"text":"你們其他委員不在場的話"},{"start":28104.97,"end":28106.77,"text":"我們很難去兼顧他的意見"},{"start":28108.43,"end":28109.83,"text":"如果重視條文的委員"},{"start":28109.83,"end":28110.83,"text":"應當會在場"},{"start":28110.83,"end":28113.23,"text":"所以我是希望就我們應當"},{"start":28113.23,"end":28117.03,"text":"就進行有在場討論的委員的內容"},{"start":28117.03,"end":28119.83,"text":"那回到條文第三條"},{"start":28119.83,"end":28122.03,"text":"我個人的提案第一個"},{"start":28122.03,"end":28125.23,"text":"我也主張在主體上"},{"start":28125.23,"end":28128.83,"text":"應當是學校及各級主管機關"},{"start":28128.46,"end":28130.059999999998,"text":"這是第一個主體"},{"start":28130.9,"end":28131.5,"text":"然後"},{"start":28132.05,"end":28133.25,"text":"學校及主管機關"},{"start":28133.25,"end":28135.85,"text":"應依本條例規定"},{"start":28135.85,"end":28137.649999999998,"text":"辦理學校午餐"},{"start":28137.649999999998,"end":28140.45,"text":"我是建議把午餐改為公餐"},{"start":28141.09,"end":28143.09,"text":"因為我認為這個學校"},{"start":28143.09,"end":28144.89,"text":"也許這個法所明定的"},{"start":28144.89,"end":28146.49,"text":"不是只有午餐的部分"},{"start":28146.49,"end":28149.49,"text":"也許未來擴及其他的公餐"},{"start":28149.49,"end":28150.49,"text":"吳委員不好意思"},{"start":28150.49,"end":28151.49,"text":"是第三條嗎"},{"start":28151.49,"end":28153.09,"text":"第三條 是的"},{"start":28153.09,"end":28155.49,"text":"所以辦理學校公餐"},{"start":28155.49,"end":28158.09,"text":"及推動飲食教育工作"},{"start":28158.09,"end":28159.09,"text":"這是我的建議"},{"start":28159.09,"end":28160.69,"text":"所以第一個主體"},{"start":28160.69,"end":28163.09,"text":"學校及各級主管機關"},{"start":28163.09,"end":28164.89,"text":"第二個學校午餐"},{"start":28164.89,"end":28168.69,"text":"我具體建議應當改成學校公餐"},{"start":28168.89,"end":28170.489999999998,"text":"供應餐食"},{"start":28170.489999999998,"end":28172.489999999998,"text":"學校公餐的部分"},{"start":28172.489999999998,"end":28173.69,"text":"這是我的兩個主張"},{"start":28176.68,"end":28179.079999999998,"text":"不好意思 我補充報告一下"},{"start":28179.079999999998,"end":28181.079999999998,"text":"我也覺得滿冤枉的"},{"start":28181.079999999998,"end":28183.48,"text":"這個修正動議是我寫的"},{"start":28183.48,"end":28185.28,"text":"名字我簽最大"},{"start":28185.28,"end":28186.48,"text":"結果他們醫次人員"},{"start":28186.48,"end":28188.079999999998,"text":"給我列柯志恩委員"},{"start":28188.079999999998,"end":28189.079999999998,"text":"為主題案人"},{"start":28189.079999999998,"end":28190.28,"text":"這其實是我的版本"},{"start":28190.28,"end":28190.88,"text":"但沒關係"},{"start":28190.88,"end":28192.48,"text":"還是跟委員特別報告"},{"start":28192.48,"end":28194.079999999998,"text":"不管是主題案人是誰"},{"start":28194.079999999998,"end":28195.48,"text":"哪怕是柯志恩委員"},{"start":28195.48,"end":28197.079999999998,"text":"我也很清楚在這邊"},{"start":28197.079999999998,"end":28198.68,"text":"我跟蔡順丞委員"},{"start":28198.68,"end":28200.48,"text":"也都是提案委員之一"},{"start":28200.48,"end":28201.88,"text":"連署委員之一"},{"start":28201.88,"end":28202.88,"text":"所以我們在現場"},{"start":28202.88,"end":28204.88,"text":"這個版本也是等同於"},{"start":28204.88,"end":28207.48,"text":"就是我們在處理我們的提案"},{"start":28207.48,"end":28209.48,"text":"所以我們已經整合了"},{"start":28209.48,"end":28212.68,"text":"幾乎三十幾位的委員的版本"},{"start":28212.68,"end":28214.88,"text":"就是以這份修正動議為主"},{"start":28214.88,"end":28216.68,"text":"以上做簡單的報告"},{"start":28216.68,"end":28218.48,"text":"那也拜託醫次人員"},{"start":28218.48,"end":28219.68,"text":"下次問我一下名字"},{"start":28219.68,"end":28220.68,"text":"我比較大"},{"start":28220.68,"end":28222.280000000002,"text":"怎麼會寫他"},{"start":28222.280000000002,"end":28223.48,"text":"他簽我的主委"},{"start":28223.48,"end":28225.08,"text":"我已經很懊惱了"},{"start":28225.08,"end":28225.68,"text":"但沒關係"},{"start":28225.68,"end":28227.08,"text":"這虧底就讓給他了"},{"start":28228.15,"end":28228.95,"text":"NONE"},{"start":28229.98,"end":28231.579999999998,"text":"那個吳佩穎委員不好意思"},{"start":28232.49,"end":28234.09,"text":"這個第三條"},{"start":28234.09,"end":28236.09,"text":"有一些版本裡面有提到"},{"start":28236.09,"end":28239.49,"text":"文字是學校公參及飲食教育計畫"},{"start":28239.49,"end":28242.29,"text":"但教育部版的建議文字是沒有"},{"start":28242.29,"end":28243.690000000002,"text":"那我覺得這可以討論"},{"start":28243.690000000002,"end":28245.49,"text":"因為之前我們在問的時候"},{"start":28245.49,"end":28248.09,"text":"有一些學校的課程計畫"},{"start":28248.09,"end":28250.49,"text":"就是對現場的老師來說"},{"start":28250.49,"end":28252.49,"text":"就是會造成更多的文書"},{"start":28252.49,"end":28253.890000000003,"text":"作業跟行政負擔"},{"start":28253.890000000003,"end":28254.890000000003,"text":"就是又要叫他寫計畫"},{"start":28254.890000000003,"end":28255.890000000003,"text":"又要寫計畫這樣"},{"start":28255.890000000003,"end":28258.690000000002,"text":"所以是不是一定有這個必要性"},{"start":28258.690000000002,"end":28261.690000000002,"text":"然後以及說這個對我們在實質上面"},{"start":28261.89,"end":28263.89,"text":"這個公參跟飲食教育是不是"},{"start":28263.89,"end":28265.89,"text":"真的是有所幫助"},{"start":28265.89,"end":28268.89,"text":"是不是一定要寫這個計畫的文字"},{"start":28268.89,"end":28270.489999999998,"text":"這個我覺得是可以討論"},{"start":28270.489999999998,"end":28271.89,"text":"我的建議是說"},{"start":28271.89,"end":28274.489999999998,"text":"看起來沒有說非要不可的理由"},{"start":28274.489999999998,"end":28276.89,"text":"是建議還是依照這個教育部的建議文字"},{"start":28276.89,"end":28278.89,"text":"但可以讓大家一起來討論"},{"start":28281.760000000002,"end":28283.760000000002,"text":"主席想補充發言"},{"start":28283.760000000002,"end":28286.760000000002,"text":"我想要呼應一下剛才吳思達委員的說法"},{"start":28286.760000000002,"end":28288.760000000002,"text":"我要再次強調"},{"start":28288.760000000002,"end":28290.760000000002,"text":"如果真的這麼在意的委員"},{"start":28290.760000000002,"end":28292.760000000002,"text":"他們應該今天要在現場"},{"start":28292.920000000002,"end":28294.920000000002,"text":"但很可惜現在國民黨"},{"start":28294.920000000002,"end":28296.920000000002,"text":"只有羅庭委員在現場"},{"start":28296.920000000002,"end":28297.920000000002,"text":"葉原子委員"},{"start":28297.920000000002,"end":28298.920000000002,"text":"葛如君"},{"start":28298.920000000002,"end":28299.920000000002,"text":"謝龍介"},{"start":28299.920000000002,"end":28300.920000000002,"text":"柯芝恩"},{"start":28300.920000000002,"end":28301.920000000002,"text":"羅志強都不在"},{"start":28301.920000000002,"end":28302.920000000002,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":28302.920000000002,"end":28303.920000000002,"text":"如果委員主席"},{"start":28303.920000000002,"end":28306.920000000002,"text":"你堅持用你們所謂整合好的版本"},{"start":28306.920000000002,"end":28307.920000000002,"text":"進行討論"},{"start":28307.920000000002,"end":28310.920000000002,"text":"我覺得對於今天所有全程出席的委員"},{"start":28310.920000000002,"end":28312.920000000002,"text":"非常非常的不公平"},{"start":28312.920000000002,"end":28315.920000000002,"text":"那當然大家的版本都在現場"},{"start":28315.920000000002,"end":28317.920000000002,"text":"而且我們人也在現場"},{"start":28317.920000000002,"end":28319.920000000002,"text":"我們不是只有版本在現場"},{"start":28319.920000000002,"end":28321.920000000002,"text":"就算主席覺得"},{"start":28322.12,"end":28324.12,"text":"這樣討論很浪費時間很花時間"},{"start":28324.12,"end":28326.12,"text":"但我想主席你既然都要排案了"},{"start":28326.12,"end":28328.12,"text":"是不是就尊重今天有出席的委員"},{"start":28328.12,"end":28331.12,"text":"請讓我們回到各自的版本來討論"},{"start":28331.12,"end":28333.12,"text":"那當然我們最後尊重教育部"},{"start":28333.12,"end":28335.12,"text":"跟大家今天所有出席的委員"},{"start":28335.12,"end":28337.12,"text":"我們可以寫定一個版本"},{"start":28337.12,"end":28339.12,"text":"而不是讓您單獨的主張"},{"start":28339.12,"end":28341.12,"text":"就以您或者是柯芝恩的版本為主"},{"start":28341.12,"end":28343.12,"text":"以上我覺得我們還是要強調"},{"start":28343.12,"end":28345.12,"text":"每一個出席的委員"},{"start":28345.12,"end":28347.12,"text":"才是實質的關心"},{"start":28347.12,"end":28348.12,"text":"當然有版本很好"},{"start":28348.12,"end":28350.12,"text":"可是如果對於文字也好"},{"start":28350.12,"end":28352.12,"text":"對於實行的細節"},{"start":28352.12,"end":28354.12,"text":"對於未來行政的措施"},{"start":28354.12,"end":28356.12,"text":"有任何的關注任何的擔心"},{"start":28356.12,"end":28358.12,"text":"我認為都應該要逐條的時候"},{"start":28358.12,"end":28360.12,"text":"出席說明"},{"start":28360.12,"end":28362.12,"text":"所以我拜託公開呼籲主張"},{"start":28362.12,"end":28364.12,"text":"請不要以您所謂手上這個版本"},{"start":28364.12,"end":28366.12,"text":"為今天討論的主要內容"},{"start":28371.56,"end":28373.56,"text":"曾俊仲委員"},{"start":28375.07,"end":28377.07,"text":"針對那個第三條"},{"start":28377.07,"end":28379.07,"text":"稍微再說明一下"},{"start":28379.07,"end":28381.07,"text":"剛剛應該是施遙委員"},{"start":28381.07,"end":28383.07,"text":"有提到用公參"},{"start":28383.07,"end":28385.07,"text":"那這個我個人也贊成"},{"start":28385.07,"end":28387.07,"text":"那在這個地方"},{"start":28387.07,"end":28389.07,"text":"在修正動議這個地方"},{"start":28389.07,"end":28391.07,"text":"這個地方"},{"start":28391.07,"end":28393.07,"text":"有提到一個實龍教育"},{"start":28393.07,"end":28395.07,"text":"那我覺得這個實龍教育"},{"start":28395.07,"end":28397.07,"text":"對學生來講也是非常重要"},{"start":28397.07,"end":28399.07,"text":"所以在這裡"},{"start":28399.07,"end":28401.07,"text":"有補充一些有關於學生的"},{"start":28401.07,"end":28403.07,"text":"一些需要接受的教育"},{"start":28403.07,"end":28405.07,"text":"還有他的一個健康的一個依據"},{"start":28405.07,"end":28407.07,"text":"我個人是覺得"},{"start":28407.07,"end":28409.07,"text":"應該把它納進來"},{"start":28409.07,"end":28411.07,"text":"更清楚的"},{"start":28411.07,"end":28413.07,"text":"這些依據"},{"start":28413.07,"end":28415.07,"text":"以上"},{"start":28417.73,"end":28419.73,"text":"好 還有委員有提案嗎"},{"start":28421.56,"end":28423.56,"text":"我們請下一步說明"},{"start":28427.06,"end":28429.06,"text":"謝謝昭委"},{"start":28429.06,"end":28431.06,"text":"就剛剛所有委員所提"},{"start":28431.06,"end":28433.06,"text":"有四個問題"},{"start":28433.06,"end":28435.06,"text":"很快跟大家報告"},{"start":28435.06,"end":28437.06,"text":"第一個問題是"},{"start":28437.06,"end":28439.06,"text":"各級主管機關"},{"start":28439.06,"end":28441.06,"text":"部長剛才有特別說"},{"start":28441.06,"end":28443.06,"text":"這個因為在2025"},{"start":28443.06,"end":28445.06,"text":"我們在提這個建議版本的時候"},{"start":28445.06,"end":28447.06,"text":"只有10縣市是免費"},{"start":28447.06,"end":28449.06,"text":"到今天在審查的時候"},{"start":28449.06,"end":28451.06,"text":"就如其他委員也觀察到的事實"},{"start":28451.06,"end":28453.06,"text":"是22縣市全面實"},{"start":28453.06,"end":28455.06,"text":"那早上"},{"start":28455.06,"end":28457.06,"text":"所有委員都有注意到未來的事情"},{"start":28457.06,"end":28459.06,"text":"可能跟地方政府還有很多"},{"start":28459.06,"end":28461.06,"text":"需要介入或是關心的"},{"start":28461.06,"end":28463.06,"text":"所以這個我們建議可以"},{"start":28463.06,"end":28465.06,"text":"放主管機關在前面"},{"start":28465.06,"end":28467.06,"text":"第二點是"},{"start":28467.06,"end":28469.06,"text":"有關公餐"},{"start":28469.06,"end":28471.06,"text":"午餐這一些字眼"},{"start":28471.06,"end":28473.06,"text":"那以現在"},{"start":28473.06,"end":28475.06,"text":"法條是寫"},{"start":28475.06,"end":28477.06,"text":"學校午餐"},{"start":28477.06,"end":28479.06,"text":"及飲食調理"},{"start":28479.06,"end":28481.06,"text":"那我們建議"},{"start":28481.06,"end":28483.06,"text":"以學校其實都已經很辛苦"},{"start":28483.06,"end":28485.06,"text":"現行大體上"},{"start":28485.06,"end":28487.06,"text":"在整體公餐或整部"},{"start":28487.06,"end":28489.06,"text":"相關的作業中"},{"start":28490.32,"end":28492.32,"text":"基本上也比較"},{"start":28492.32,"end":28494.32,"text":"是回到條例的本文"},{"start":28494.32,"end":28496.32,"text":"還有他的主旨"},{"start":28496.32,"end":28498.32,"text":"以及他的標題"},{"start":28498.32,"end":28500.32,"text":"所以我們建議是不是"},{"start":28500.32,"end":28502.32,"text":"讓學校的老師不用"},{"start":28502.32,"end":28504.32,"text":"工作的夥伴不用擔心"},{"start":28504.32,"end":28506.32,"text":"我們還是回到"},{"start":28506.32,"end":28508.32,"text":"本條例的主旨還是"},{"start":28508.32,"end":28510.32,"text":"午餐"},{"start":28510.32,"end":28512.32,"text":"第三點配以委員有提到說"},{"start":28512.32,"end":28514.32,"text":"裡面有要寫計畫等等"},{"start":28514.32,"end":28516.32,"text":"的確"},{"start":28516.32,"end":28518.32,"text":"這可能會比較不需要"},{"start":28518.32,"end":28520.32,"text":"學校在公餐這一些"},{"start":28520.32,"end":28522.32,"text":"最重要"},{"start":28522.32,"end":28524.32,"text":"相關的招標或相關的"},{"start":28524.32,"end":28526.32,"text":"處理上已經有一個"},{"start":28526.32,"end":28528.32,"text":"很辛苦的過程了"},{"start":28528.32,"end":28530.32,"text":"那可能不用再特別"},{"start":28530.32,"end":28532.32,"text":"額外再寫計畫"},{"start":28532.32,"end":28534.32,"text":"此外如果涉及到飲食教育"},{"start":28534.32,"end":28536.32,"text":"不管是課程或相關的"},{"start":28536.32,"end":28538.32,"text":"本來就有課程計畫"},{"start":28538.32,"end":28540.32,"text":"所以我們建議不要"},{"start":28540.32,"end":28542.32,"text":"再特別請學校還要再特別寫"},{"start":28542.32,"end":28544.32,"text":"計畫所以以上三點"},{"start":28544.32,"end":28546.32,"text":"不管各級主管教育機關或學校"},{"start":28546.32,"end":28548.32,"text":"不要再寫計畫"},{"start":28548.32,"end":28550.32,"text":"大概做這樣的三點"},{"start":28550.32,"end":28552.32,"text":"至於第四點是"},{"start":28552.32,"end":28554.32,"text":"委員這邊有提案說"},{"start":28554.32,"end":28556.32,"text":"病得結合這個後段"},{"start":28556.32,"end":28558.32,"text":"是不是"},{"start":28558.32,"end":28560.32,"text":"懇請委員"},{"start":28560.32,"end":28562.32,"text":"在第一段主旨的時候"},{"start":28562.32,"end":28564.32,"text":"就是第一條主旨時會提過一次"},{"start":28564.32,"end":28566.32,"text":"等一下在第五條的時候"},{"start":28566.32,"end":28568.32,"text":"也會再提到"},{"start":28568.32,"end":28570.32,"text":"類似飲食教育"},{"start":28570.32,"end":28572.32,"text":"是不是這一類"},{"start":28572.32,"end":28574.32,"text":"就不要重複讓學校"},{"start":28574.32,"end":28576.32,"text":"不要讓學校擔心說好像"},{"start":28576.32,"end":28578.32,"text":"一直不管是第一條第三條"},{"start":28578.32,"end":28580.32,"text":"等一下第五條好像一直要學校"},{"start":28580.32,"end":28582.32,"text":"要去"},{"start":28582.32,"end":28584.32,"text":"提醒他沒有好多事情要做"},{"start":28584.32,"end":28586.32,"text":"其實這一條實在處理的是"},{"start":28586.32,"end":28588.32,"text":"做"},{"start":28588.4,"end":28590.4,"text":"午餐的這件事的主體"},{"start":28590.4,"end":28592.4,"text":"包含主管機關"},{"start":28592.4,"end":28594.4,"text":"和學校其他講事情"},{"start":28594.4,"end":28596.4,"text":"的部分是不是就"},{"start":28596.4,"end":28598.4,"text":"不要一直讓學校已經在辦"},{"start":28598.4,"end":28600.4,"text":"這個工作"},{"start":28600.4,"end":28602.4,"text":"幫忙學生的整體"},{"start":28602.4,"end":28604.4,"text":"的午餐的協助了"},{"start":28604.4,"end":28606.4,"text":"不用在這邊再重複"},{"start":28606.4,"end":28608.4,"text":"在主體之外再提事情"},{"start":28608.4,"end":28610.4,"text":"以上補充謝謝"},{"start":28611.42,"end":28613.42,"text":"好 還沒委員有意見"},{"start":28616.67,"end":28618.67,"text":"好 那有委員"},{"start":28620.51,"end":28622.51,"text":"對於這一個條文有意見"},{"start":28622.51,"end":28624.51,"text":"那大家都有自己的想法"},{"start":28624.51,"end":28626.51,"text":"那我們就是保留"},{"start":28626.51,"end":28628.51,"text":"送院會協商處理"},{"start":28630.99,"end":28632.99,"text":"好 第四條"},{"start":28633.93,"end":28635.93,"text":"第四條台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":28635.93,"end":28637.93,"text":"第四條等第十七個提案"},{"start":28637.93,"end":28639.93,"text":"以及委員羅廷維等人"},{"start":28639.93,"end":28641.93,"text":"所提修正動議"},{"start":28641.93,"end":28643.93,"text":"不好意思因為我剛剛有抗議"},{"start":28643.93,"end":28645.93,"text":"那真的是我寫的"},{"start":28645.93,"end":28647.93,"text":"那所以這部分提案人"},{"start":28647.93,"end":28649.93,"text":"應該是以我為主"},{"start":28649.93,"end":28651.93,"text":"那也希望說這個部分跟大家特別報告"},{"start":28651.93,"end":28653.93,"text":"那我們來看到第四條"},{"start":28655.87,"end":28657.87,"text":"第四條本條條例"},{"start":28658.8,"end":28660.8,"text":"那麻煩大家可以給予意見謝謝"},{"start":28662.92,"end":28664.92,"text":"教育部的條文版本是"},{"start":28664.92,"end":28666.92,"text":"本條例所稱學校"},{"start":28666.92,"end":28668.92,"text":"指高級中等以下學校"},{"start":28669.87,"end":28671.87,"text":"這叫一部建議的文字"},{"start":28673.11,"end":28675.11,"text":"NOT"},{"start":28674.77,"end":28676.77,"text":"啊"},{"start":28676.17,"end":28678.17,"text":"陳培瑋請說"},{"start":28678.04,"end":28680.04,"text":"好"},{"start":28680.23,"end":28682.23,"text":"主席我想要先問一下剛前一條"},{"start":28682.23,"end":28684.23,"text":"因為你很快速的就說保留"},{"start":28684.86,"end":28686.86,"text":"在處理可是"},{"start":28687.22,"end":28689.22,"text":"教文過去在幾次在審"},{"start":28689.22,"end":28691.22,"text":"逐條的時候其實"},{"start":28692.38,"end":28694.38,"text":"可能我們在一些文字上都可以先進行討論"},{"start":28694.38,"end":28696.38,"text":"如果真的在文字討論上都沒有共識"},{"start":28696.38,"end":28698.38,"text":"才會送出去"},{"start":28698.38,"end":28700.38,"text":"但如果主席今天的策略"},{"start":28700.38,"end":28702.38,"text":"是採取每一條只要大家發言完"},{"start":28702.38,"end":28704.38,"text":"連文字都不看"},{"start":28704.38,"end":28706.38,"text":"也不談我們就送保留"},{"start":28706.38,"end":28708.38,"text":"是這樣嗎等一下就會是這樣嗎我先問一下"},{"start":28708.38,"end":28710.38,"text":"先回應陳培瑋委員"},{"start":28710.38,"end":28712.38,"text":"跟您報告一下"},{"start":28712.38,"end":28714.38,"text":"沒有我們一定要尊重委員可是"},{"start":28714.38,"end":28716.38,"text":"剛剛在問大家有沒有意見的時候"},{"start":28716.38,"end":28718.38,"text":"那也沒有委員舉手"},{"start":28718.38,"end":28720.38,"text":"要處理那所以"},{"start":28720.38,"end":28722.38,"text":"因為大家意見不太一致"},{"start":28722.38,"end":28724.38,"text":"所以我們就院會處理"},{"start":28724.38,"end":28726.38,"text":"送協商所以我剛剛有第二次"},{"start":28726.38,"end":28728.38,"text":"詢問大家有沒有意見那那時候你們沒有舉手"},{"start":28728.38,"end":28730.38,"text":"不好意思所以我"},{"start":28730.38,"end":28732.38,"text":"剛剛就這樣處理了好"},{"start":28732.38,"end":28734.38,"text":"接下來我們在處理第四條的時候"},{"start":28734.38,"end":28736.38,"text":"也請大家盡情的發言"},{"start":28736.38,"end":28738.38,"text":"然後對於這個文字上有什麼"},{"start":28738.38,"end":28740.38,"text":"建議都可以說那我先"},{"start":28740.38,"end":28742.38,"text":"就我的這個國民黨"},{"start":28742.38,"end":28744.38,"text":"跟民眾黨我們整合的會診"},{"start":28744.38,"end":28746.38,"text":"版本跟大家報告"},{"start":28746.38,"end":28748.38,"text":"從我們的這個修正動議"},{"start":28748.38,"end":28750.38,"text":"我們本條例所稱學校"},{"start":28750.38,"end":28752.38,"text":"公餐指學校辦理"},{"start":28752.38,"end":28754.38,"text":"提供知學校午餐晚餐"},{"start":28754.38,"end":28756.38,"text":"寒假暑假"},{"start":28756.38,"end":28758.38,"text":"期間的公餐替代"},{"start":28758.38,"end":28760.38,"text":"公餐以及其他"},{"start":28760.38,"end":28762.38,"text":"經中央主管機關"},{"start":28762.38,"end":28764.38,"text":"公告之餐食"},{"start":28764.38,"end":28766.38,"text":"這是我們整合所有的委員"},{"start":28766.38,"end":28768.38,"text":"的版本那也請"},{"start":28768.38,"end":28770.38,"text":"大家能夠參考那基本上"},{"start":28770.38,"end":28772.38,"text":"也不離教育部建議"},{"start":28772.38,"end":28774.38,"text":"條文然後那我們是以他們"},{"start":28774.38,"end":28776.38,"text":"作為底稿來做"},{"start":28776.38,"end":28778.38,"text":"修正"},{"start":28778.46,"end":28780.46,"text":"請大家參與"},{"start":28788.13,"end":28790.13,"text":"請參與"},{"start":28789.81,"end":28791.81,"text":"好"},{"start":28791.7,"end":28793.7,"text":"我還是先說一下我的版本"},{"start":28793.7,"end":28795.7,"text":"跟一樣要希望教育部"},{"start":28795.7,"end":28797.7,"text":"希望主席留時間讓"},{"start":28797.7,"end":28799.7,"text":"國教署回答目前我們"},{"start":28799.7,"end":28801.7,"text":"現在寫的教育部的版本寫的比較"},{"start":28801.7,"end":28803.7,"text":"簡單是指高級中等以下學校"},{"start":28803.7,"end":28805.7,"text":"那事實上學校樣態"},{"start":28805.7,"end":28807.7,"text":"很多元所以在我的版本裡面"},{"start":28807.7,"end":28809.7,"text":"其實提到了不同樣態的學校"},{"start":28809.7,"end":28811.7,"text":"包含公私立的高級中等學校"},{"start":28811.7,"end":28813.7,"text":"學校型態的實驗教育"},{"start":28813.7,"end":28815.7,"text":"就是只公辦公營的實驗"},{"start":28815.7,"end":28817.7,"text":"教育或者是私立的"},{"start":28817.7,"end":28819.7,"text":"實驗教育學校或是原住民族學校"},{"start":28819.7,"end":28821.7,"text":"特殊教育學校其他金主管"},{"start":28821.7,"end":28823.7,"text":"習慣認定適用的學校"},{"start":28823.7,"end":28825.7,"text":"那幼兒園的部分可能也"},{"start":28825.7,"end":28827.7,"text":"會有涉及因為有非常"},{"start":28827.7,"end":28829.7,"text":"多的國小裡面有設置幼兒園"},{"start":28829.7,"end":28831.7,"text":"所以這個部分待會"},{"start":28831.7,"end":28833.7,"text":"要拜託主席留時間讓國教署"},{"start":28833.7,"end":28835.7,"text":"說明那另外我要說"},{"start":28835.7,"end":28837.7,"text":"現在在所謂"},{"start":28837.7,"end":28839.7,"text":"羅庭瑋委員的版本裡面其實"},{"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這邊就不用管"},{"start":29606.87,"end":29608.87,"text":"食農教育也不用管營養教育喔"},{"start":29608.87,"end":29610.87,"text":"這樣聽起來很怪對不對"},{"start":29610.87,"end":29612.87,"text":"所以我才會說我們光是你們"},{"start":29612.87,"end":29614.87,"text":"自己提出來的修正動力就發現"},{"start":29614.87,"end":29616.87,"text":"文字上的bug"},{"start":29616.87,"end":29618.87,"text":"更何況未來所有三十幾個"},{"start":29618.87,"end":29620.87,"text":"版本通過後如果我們"},{"start":29620.87,"end":29622.87,"text":"不在委員會裡面在逐條針對"},{"start":29622.87,"end":29624.87,"text":"文字或是前後的寫法做調整"},{"start":29624.87,"end":29626.87,"text":"我認為"},{"start":29626.87,"end":29628.87,"text":"送出去協商其實真的"},{"start":29628.87,"end":29630.87,"text":"不是好事因為在協商的現場可能"},{"start":29630.87,"end":29632.87,"text":"更沒有時間大家針對"},{"start":29632.87,"end":29634.87,"text":"這麼多細節而且在協商的現場"},{"start":29634.87,"end":29636.87,"text":"通常也不會是教文的本委"},{"start":29636.87,"end":29638.87,"text":"可能會是三長去處理的"},{"start":29638.87,"end":29640.87,"text":"那根據我過去當三長的經驗"},{"start":29640.87,"end":29642.87,"text":"我認為所有的教文委員"},{"start":29642.87,"end":29644.87,"text":"今天都已經出席這麼多人了"},{"start":29644.87,"end":29646.87,"text":"我們就好好的在這邊"},{"start":29646.87,"end":29648.87,"text":"把有問題的部分我們就先留在"},{"start":29648.87,"end":29650.87,"text":"教文委員會裡面"},{"start":29650.87,"end":29652.87,"text":"我覺得會是更專業而且"},{"start":29652.87,"end":29654.87,"text":"更認真的修法那我們再把"},{"start":29654.87,"end":29656.87,"text":"高度爭議的部分送"},{"start":29656.87,"end":29658.87,"text":"出委員會我覺得這是比較好的做法"},{"start":29658.87,"end":29660.87,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":29661.21,"end":29663.21,"text":"好所以委員具體的建議"},{"start":29663.21,"end":29665.21,"text":"是希望照"},{"start":29665.64,"end":29667.64,"text":"往例然後我們就是保留"},{"start":29667.64,"end":29669.64,"text":"再回過頭來"},{"start":29669.64,"end":29671.64,"text":"對因為我們走完這麼"},{"start":29671.64,"end":29673.64,"text":"多條一定會發現前前後後"},{"start":29673.64,"end":29675.64,"text":"的文字寫法調整啦"},{"start":29675.64,"end":29677.64,"text":"這樣或者是今天我們的公開"},{"start":29677.64,"end":29679.64,"text":"修法現場可能有地方政府回頭"},{"start":29679.64,"end":29681.64,"text":"看了之後發現要許我那條"},{"start":29681.64,"end":29683.64,"text":"我沒有辦法買單他們可能就打電話"},{"start":29683.64,"end":29685.64,"text":"跟教育部抗議啊所以我們"},{"start":29685.64,"end":29687.64,"text":"就冒冒然的送出去"},{"start":29687.64,"end":29689.64,"text":"委員會最後是留到"},{"start":29689.64,"end":29691.64,"text":"所謂的幹部協商我認為其實"},{"start":29691.64,"end":29693.64,"text":"這樣對地方政府也好對教育部也好"},{"start":29693.64,"end":29695.64,"text":"對於所有的在處理營養午餐"},{"start":29695.64,"end":29697.64,"text":"的人我覺得都有點可惜啦"},{"start":29697.64,"end":29699.64,"text":"我們不如就在委員會裡面好好的"},{"start":29699.64,"end":29701.64,"text":"主張然後整部反而回來"},{"start":29701.64,"end":29703.64,"text":"一定要再review過一次這是"},{"start":29703.64,"end":29705.64,"text":"我的建議既然既然你都排案了"},{"start":29705.64,"end":29707.64,"text":"你這麼在意這個事情所以裴委員我"},{"start":29707.64,"end":29709.64,"text":"具體的問就是說你希望照"},{"start":29709.64,"end":29711.64,"text":"往例嘛對不對"},{"start":29711.66,"end":29713.66,"text":"對但是那個慣例並不是指一定要"},{"start":29713.66,"end":29715.66,"text":"按照慣例而是我背後的邏輯跟論述"},{"start":29715.66,"end":29717.66,"text":"是這樣的好不好"},{"start":29717.66,"end":29719.66,"text":"那我就回應你一下"},{"start":29719.66,"end":29721.66,"text":"因為剛剛我在處理消失會議相關"},{"start":29721.66,"end":29723.66,"text":"辦法的時候你叫我不要追溯"},{"start":29723.66,"end":29725.66,"text":"20年前相關的"},{"start":29725.66,"end":29727.66,"text":"我剛剛我們新人"},{"start":29727.66,"end":29729.66,"text":"有新傾向那個比較慣例我們應該"},{"start":29729.66,"end":29731.66,"text":"要以現階段審議"},{"start":29731.66,"end":29733.66,"text":"我的風格"},{"start":29733.66,"end":29735.66,"text":"就是要直接處理拖了十幾"},{"start":29735.66,"end":29737.66,"text":"二十年沒辦法處理的法案"},{"start":29737.66,"end":29739.66,"text":"我要推進那委員"},{"start":29739.66,"end":29741.66,"text":"委員擔心送到三長"},{"start":29741.66,"end":29743.66,"text":"三長不太了解"},{"start":29743.66,"end":29745.66,"text":"我相信我跟蔡尊仲委員"},{"start":29745.66,"end":29747.66,"text":"我會代表國民黨我會要求"},{"start":29747.66,"end":29749.66,"text":"國民黨三長一定要讓我全程"},{"start":29749.66,"end":29751.66,"text":"陪同那送院會協商"},{"start":29751.66,"end":29753.66,"text":"處理相信蔡尊仲委員的認真"},{"start":29753.66,"end":29755.66,"text":"也一定會代表民眾黨到時"},{"start":29755.66,"end":29757.66,"text":"三長的討論一定會"},{"start":29757.66,"end":29759.66,"text":"有我跟蔡尊仲委員"},{"start":29759.66,"end":29761.66,"text":"那我們一定會在這段時間"},{"start":29761.66,"end":29763.66,"text":"送院會協商處理的冷凍期"},{"start":29763.66,"end":29765.66,"text":"那持續的收集更多的"},{"start":29765.66,"end":29767.66,"text":"意見所以請委員不用擔心"},{"start":29767.66,"end":29768.16,"text":"以上"},{"start":29769.32,"end":29771.32,"text":"主席我可以再回應你嗎"},{"start":29771.32,"end":29773.32,"text":"既然你都回應我了"},{"start":29773.32,"end":29775.32,"text":"保留送院會協商處理"},{"start":29775.32,"end":29777.32,"text":"可以啊可以啊"},{"start":29777.32,"end":29779.32,"text":"我還是要再次主張喔"},{"start":29779.32,"end":29781.32,"text":"你剛剛用前面你那個我說你很慌"},{"start":29781.32,"end":29783.32,"text":"沒有提案這件事情說嘛"},{"start":29783.32,"end":29785.32,"text":"你說你那個叫慣例喔"},{"start":29785.32,"end":29787.32,"text":"慣例指的是發生的頻率高低"},{"start":29787.32,"end":29789.32,"text":"而且主席我剛剛其實在第二"},{"start":29789.32,"end":29791.32,"text":"我說前例"},{"start":29790.29,"end":29791.29,"text":"你說慣例"},{"start":29791.29,"end":29793.29,"text":"那對不起更正前例"},{"start":29793.29,"end":29795.29,"text":"那你剛剛說是慣例"},{"start":29795.29,"end":29797.29,"text":"而且我要說在我們剛剛討論"},{"start":29797.29,"end":29798.29,"text":"我要再一次跟你對不起"},{"start":29798.29,"end":29798.79,"text":"我改正"},{"start":29798.79,"end":29800.79,"text":"你剛剛在處理這個提案的時候"},{"start":29800.79,"end":29802.79,"text":"其實我剛剛公開建議你啊"},{"start":29802.79,"end":29804.79,"text":"我說如果你認為當時那個"},{"start":29804.79,"end":29806.79,"text":"那些委員的寫法說什麼被離民意也好啦"},{"start":29806.79,"end":29808.79,"text":"還是沒有聽地方的聲音"},{"start":29808.79,"end":29810.79,"text":"你覺得這個寫法很厲害很棒"},{"start":29810.79,"end":29812.79,"text":"你把它一念再念一念再念"},{"start":29812.79,"end":29814.79,"text":"那我當時建議你說你就寫進你自己的提案裡頭啊"},{"start":29814.79,"end":29816.79,"text":"然後這個提案會留在公報裡頭嘛"},{"start":29816.79,"end":29818.79,"text":"就留下歷史記錄啦"},{"start":29818.79,"end":29820.79,"text":"大家不會只有看逐字稿嘛"},{"start":29820.79,"end":29821.29,"text":"對不對"},{"start":29821.29,"end":29822.79,"text":"那我講的是這個意思"},{"start":29822.79,"end":29825.79,"text":"那我現在講的是為了法案本身的好"},{"start":29825.79,"end":29828.79,"text":"這件事情我想要一再的論述這件事情"},{"start":29828.79,"end":29832.79,"text":"因為主席光是你自己今天才提出來的修正動議"},{"start":29832.79,"end":29837.79,"text":"你的第四條跟第五條寫了就發生漢革了"},{"start":29837.79,"end":29839.79,"text":"光是這麼簡單的事情我們就找到了bug"},{"start":29839.79,"end":29842.79,"text":"那你認為你真的認為每一條全部都送出去"},{"start":29842.79,"end":29845.79,"text":"然後我們在所謂三長協商院長協商的時候"},{"start":29845.79,"end":29849.79,"text":"是要請韓院長跟各黨的三長陪著我們一條一條"},{"start":29849.79,"end":29851.79,"text":"然後用三十幾個版本來看嗎"},{"start":29851.79,"end":29854.79,"text":"那我現在更好奇的是你到時候送出去要協商的內容"},{"start":29854.79,"end":29856.79,"text":"你到底是要送哪個版本"},{"start":29856.79,"end":29858.79,"text":"你是要送你今天手上這個修正動議版本"},{"start":29858.79,"end":29860.79,"text":"還是教育部的版本"},{"start":29860.79,"end":29863.79,"text":"還是這三十幾個版本後後這一疊再送出去協商"},{"start":29863.79,"end":29864.79,"text":"我不懂"},{"start":29864.79,"end":29866.79,"text":"我真心不懂那請主席回答我"},{"start":29866.79,"end":29869.79,"text":"還是你覺得到時候你就送你自己說這個修正動議版本"},{"start":29869.79,"end":29870.79,"text":"可是我剛剛就說了嘛"},{"start":29870.79,"end":29873.79,"text":"我現在談的到這個第四條第五條就發生了bug耶"},{"start":29874.79,"end":29876.79,"text":"那主席你回答我或是醫事人員你可以教主席嗎"},{"start":29876.79,"end":29879.79,"text":"到時候送出去在幹部三長協商"},{"start":29879.79,"end":29880.79,"text":"韓院長坐在那邊協商的時候"},{"start":29880.79,"end":29881.79,"text":"到底是協商哪一個版本"},{"start":29890.76,"end":29892.76,"text":"修正動議都會保留"},{"start":29894.3,"end":29896.3,"text":"好來我們就繼續"},{"start":29896.3,"end":29898.3,"text":"主席你沒有回答我你要送哪個版本出去"},{"start":29899.63,"end":29901.63,"text":"我們修正動議"},{"start":29901.51,"end":29904.51,"text":"剛剛醫事人員有提到都會保留"},{"start":29904.51,"end":29908.51,"text":"那基本上我們跟民眾黨高度的共識"},{"start":29908.51,"end":29911.51,"text":"就是今天的修正動議"},{"start":29911.51,"end":29915.51,"text":"那我想委員對於我們的版本有所指教"},{"start":29915.51,"end":29917.51,"text":"我們也都非常感謝"},{"start":29917.51,"end":29920.51,"text":"也希望委員能夠提出更多的建議"},{"start":29920.51,"end":29922.51,"text":"讓我們的版本越來越好"},{"start":29922.51,"end":29927.51,"text":"那所以我們也會透過院會協商處理的過程機制"},{"start":29927.51,"end":29932.51,"text":"還有冷凍期一個月內再持續的跟大家彙整更多的意見"},{"start":29932.51,"end":29935.51,"text":"到時院會協商處理的時候會有"},{"start":29936.1,"end":29938.1,"text":"再納入各方的意見"},{"start":29938.1,"end":29941.1,"text":"好所以主席那我跟您再次確認"},{"start":29941.1,"end":29944.1,"text":"我們透過院會送協商處理"},{"start":29944.1,"end":29946.1,"text":"也是有這樣子的一個機制存在"},{"start":29946.1,"end":29950.1,"text":"好那既然醫事人員都已經代替您給我答案了"},{"start":29950.1,"end":29953.1,"text":"就是說修正動議會一併送出去"},{"start":29953.1,"end":29955.1,"text":"那以上我的論述我想問一下"},{"start":29955.1,"end":29958.1,"text":"教育部的版本也會被送出去嗎"},{"start":29958.1,"end":29960.1,"text":"還有所有這些提案委員的"},{"start":29960.1,"end":29963.1,"text":"這麼一點二三十個版本也會被送出去嗎"},{"start":29963.1,"end":29964.1,"text":"請問"},{"start":29965.16,"end":29967.16,"text":"主席我想知道剛才您說"},{"start":29967.16,"end":29973.16,"text":"你們在協商的時候民眾黨跟國民黨會有高度的共識"},{"start":29973.16,"end":29977.16,"text":"那我們民進黨的委員七個人坐在這邊一個字一個字"},{"start":29977.16,"end":29980.16,"text":"為我們的條文為了我們每一個字"},{"start":29980.16,"end":29982.16,"text":"是不是用的得當是不是在這個法條裡面"},{"start":29982.16,"end":29985.16,"text":"是不是有很真切的去表達到"},{"start":29985.16,"end":29987.16,"text":"我們都很認真的在討論"},{"start":29987.16,"end":29990.16,"text":"但是被您保留出去之後您告訴我說"},{"start":29990.16,"end":29993.16,"text":"因為國民黨跟民眾黨有高度的共識"},{"start":29993.16,"end":29995.16,"text":"那是不是我們的聲音就被忽略掉"},{"start":29995.16,"end":29997.16,"text":"那我們現在在討論什麼"},{"start":29998.15,"end":29999.15,"text":"請問"},{"start":29999.15,"end":30001.15,"text":"您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30001.15,"end":30003.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30003.15,"end":30005.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30005.15,"end":30007.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30007.15,"end":30009.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30009.15,"end":30011.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30011.15,"end":30013.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30013.15,"end":30015.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30015.15,"end":30017.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30017.15,"end":30019.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30019.15,"end":30021.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30021.15,"end":30023.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30023.15,"end":30025.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":30025.15,"end":30027.15,"text":"請問您的論述是怎麼做的"},{"start":29999.45,"end":30000.45,"text":"好請一併回答"},{"start":30000.45,"end":30002.45,"text":"而且主席現在你再跟醫事人員討論了"},{"start":30002.45,"end":30004.45,"text":"我要再一次強調"},{"start":30004.45,"end":30006.45,"text":"剛剛秀寶委員提的是一個非常關鍵的問題"},{"start":30006.45,"end":30008.45,"text":"請大家現在看一看"},{"start":30010.45,"end":30012.45,"text":"4點53分"},{"start":30012.45,"end":30014.45,"text":"從今天下午2點40分開始"},{"start":30014.45,"end":30016.45,"text":"不算是校事會議的提案修法"},{"start":30016.45,"end":30018.45,"text":"或者是現在坐在這裡談營養午餐的"},{"start":30018.45,"end":30020.45,"text":"請問國民黨的委員誰出現了"},{"start":30020.45,"end":30022.45,"text":"除了你擔任主席"},{"start":30022.45,"end":30024.45,"text":"擔任召委之外請問誰出現了"},{"start":30024.45,"end":30026.45,"text":"葉源之"},{"start":30026.45,"end":30028.45,"text":"邪洵葉源之"},{"start":30028.45,"end":30030.45,"text":"柯志恩我邪洵柯志恩"},{"start":30030.45,"end":30032.45,"text":"我邪洵葛如君"},{"start":30032.45,"end":30034.45,"text":"謝龍建呢"},{"start":30034.45,"end":30036.45,"text":"平常也不愛來謝龍建算了我差點忘記他了"},{"start":30036.45,"end":30038.45,"text":"這些人請問你們在哪裡"},{"start":30038.45,"end":30040.45,"text":"你剛剛用一個非常蠻橫的說法說"},{"start":30040.45,"end":30042.45,"text":"你沒有回答我到底要送什麼版本出去"},{"start":30042.45,"end":30044.45,"text":"然後你只跟我說"},{"start":30044.45,"end":30046.45,"text":"藍白有共識"},{"start":30046.45,"end":30048.45,"text":"所以難道最後協商的版本是藍白"},{"start":30048.45,"end":30050.45,"text":"然後我們今天所有這些民進黨委員"},{"start":30050.45,"end":30052.45,"text":"坐在這裡幫你們背書"},{"start":30052.45,"end":30054.45,"text":"何其的荒謬"},{"start":30054.45,"end":30056.45,"text":"就算你地方政府大部分"},{"start":30056.45,"end":30058.45,"text":"你們認為所有地方首長"},{"start":30058.45,"end":30060.45,"text":"多數超過是藍白"},{"start":30060.45,"end":30062.45,"text":"加起來的執政"},{"start":30062.45,"end":30064.45,"text":"所以你們說了算"},{"start":30064.45,"end":30066.45,"text":"那請問你們還要甚至還要修法"},{"start":30066.45,"end":30068.45,"text":"修荒謬的法什麼"},{"start":30068.45,"end":30070.45,"text":"水電費啦牛奶費啦"},{"start":30070.45,"end":30072.45,"text":"到時候國產食材費還要交一部買單"},{"start":30072.45,"end":30074.45,"text":"請問這樣的說法難道民進黨委員"},{"start":30074.45,"end":30076.45,"text":"的意見都不用參採嗎"},{"start":30076.45,"end":30078.45,"text":"我覺得非常非常的荒謬所以你"},{"start":30078.45,"end":30080.45,"text":"剛剛第一次在回答我的問題的時候"},{"start":30080.45,"end":30082.45,"text":"你還是沒有公開回答"},{"start":30082.45,"end":30084.45,"text":"我的問題請問到時候送到"},{"start":30084.45,"end":30086.45,"text":"韓國院長面前協商的版本是什麼"},{"start":30086.45,"end":30088.45,"text":"版本如果真的按照你所說的"},{"start":30088.45,"end":30090.45,"text":"你只送出去今天你們藍白這個"},{"start":30091.94,"end":30093.94,"text":"一下就被我發現寫錯修正動議"},{"start":30093.94,"end":30095.94,"text":"或者是你只送"},{"start":30095.81,"end":30097.81,"text":"教育部的版本我都覺得非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":30097.81,"end":30099.81,"text":"所以主席你要不要公開回答"},{"start":30099.81,"end":30101.81,"text":"你不願意在整部法案"},{"start":30101.81,"end":30103.81,"text":"討論後留在教文"},{"start":30103.81,"end":30105.81,"text":"逐條再次review"},{"start":30105.81,"end":30107.81,"text":"你不願意參考你的前輩"},{"start":30107.81,"end":30109.81,"text":"柯之恩的做法就算他今天沒有來"},{"start":30109.81,"end":30111.81,"text":"他當時在修學府法的時候"},{"start":30111.81,"end":30113.81,"text":"我們橫跨了會期"},{"start":30113.81,"end":30115.81,"text":"我們橫跨了非常非常多的討論"},{"start":30115.81,"end":30117.81,"text":"大家甚至在某一個條文上"},{"start":30117.81,"end":30119.81,"text":"關於專府人員的"},{"start":30119.81,"end":30121.81,"text":"薪資我們花了兩三個小時"},{"start":30121.81,"end":30123.81,"text":"這件事情主席"},{"start":30123.81,"end":30125.81,"text":"這個叫做優良的慣例"},{"start":30125.81,"end":30127.81,"text":"這個叫做負責任的立法"},{"start":30127.81,"end":30129.81,"text":"這個叫做兼顧行政"},{"start":30129.81,"end":30131.81,"text":"跟立法之間平衡的立法委員"},{"start":30131.81,"end":30133.81,"text":"該做的事情今天立法委員"},{"start":30133.81,"end":30135.81,"text":"沒有大到你坐在這裡修法"},{"start":30135.81,"end":30137.81,"text":"地方政府就要買單或是教育部"},{"start":30137.81,"end":30139.81,"text":"要買單這叫做侵害"},{"start":30139.81,"end":30141.81,"text":"行政權而且你不是只有侵害中央"},{"start":30141.81,"end":30143.81,"text":"的行政權你甚至認為你大到"},{"start":30143.81,"end":30145.81,"text":"可以指揮地方政府全部"},{"start":30145.81,"end":30147.81,"text":"聽你的話用你的版本去做事"},{"start":30147.81,"end":30149.81,"text":"沒有這樣的事情主席那今天"},{"start":30149.81,"end":30151.81,"text":"所有出席的民進黨委員"},{"start":30151.81,"end":30153.81,"text":"情何以堪我們所有的版本"},{"start":30153.81,"end":30155.81,"text":"就決定你就決定丟包了嗎"},{"start":30155.81,"end":30157.81,"text":"你剛回答沒有回答我主席"},{"start":30157.81,"end":30159.81,"text":"請你公開說清楚你"},{"start":30159.81,"end":30161.81,"text":"不願意在委員會"},{"start":30161.81,"end":30163.81,"text":"逐條談完之後"},{"start":30163.81,"end":30165.81,"text":"逐條再次在委員會"},{"start":30165.81,"end":30167.81,"text":"review是為了什麼原因請你公開說明"},{"start":30167.81,"end":30169.81,"text":"二如果你堅持"},{"start":30169.81,"end":30171.81,"text":"要送出去協商你到底會送出去"},{"start":30171.81,"end":30173.81,"text":"什麼版本三請你公開說明"},{"start":30173.81,"end":30175.81,"text":"如果你們國民黨今天真的"},{"start":30175.81,"end":30177.81,"text":"這麼在意營養午餐的修法請問"},{"start":30177.81,"end":30179.81,"text":"哪個國民黨委員出席我再次點名"},{"start":30179.81,"end":30181.81,"text":"柯志恩葉元之葛羅軍謝龍介"},{"start":30181.81,"end":30183.81,"text":"出席了嗎說明了嗎"},{"start":30183.81,"end":30185.81,"text":"參與討論了嗎"},{"start":30185.81,"end":30187.81,"text":"還有羅志強委員大安區"},{"start":30187.81,"end":30189.81,"text":"委員小孩命不是命一樣午餐吃不用在意"},{"start":30189.81,"end":30191.81,"text":"是這樣嗎葉元之委員來自板橋"},{"start":30191.81,"end":30193.81,"text":"謝龍介來自台南柯志恩委員"},{"start":30193.81,"end":30195.81,"text":"來自高雄"},{"start":30195.96,"end":30197.96,"text":"然後你還好意思大聲跟我說"},{"start":30197.96,"end":30199.96,"text":"這個是你們藍版有共識的版本"},{"start":30202.14,"end":30204.14,"text":"請主席公開回答我剛剛提問了所有問題"},{"start":30208.38,"end":30210.38,"text":"跟委員特別報告"},{"start":30210.38,"end":30212.38,"text":"因為我們希望能夠加速"},{"start":30212.38,"end":30214.38,"text":"推進的原因是"},{"start":30214.38,"end":30216.38,"text":"我們看到目前在這個"},{"start":30216.38,"end":30218.38,"text":"營養午餐法已經討論"},{"start":30218.38,"end":30220.38,"text":"了數十年我們希望能夠"},{"start":30220.38,"end":30222.38,"text":"持續的推進並且是有效率"},{"start":30222.38,"end":30224.38,"text":"推進那有鑒於最近"},{"start":30224.38,"end":30226.38,"text":"的食安問題營養午餐的"},{"start":30226.38,"end":30228.38,"text":"一些關係大家也都"},{"start":30228.38,"end":30230.38,"text":"很關注那希望透過立法"},{"start":30230.38,"end":30232.38,"text":"的方式能夠來保障"},{"start":30232.38,"end":30234.38,"text":"委員擔心會有丟包別人"},{"start":30234.38,"end":30236.38,"text":"的版本這個部分不用擔心"},{"start":30236.38,"end":30238.38,"text":"因為修正動議是跟著"},{"start":30238.38,"end":30240.38,"text":"各委員提案的版本一並"},{"start":30240.38,"end":30242.38,"text":"進入到下一個程序"},{"start":30242.38,"end":30244.38,"text":"那委員有沒有"},{"start":30244.38,"end":30246.38,"text":"有特別關心這個教育部建議文字"},{"start":30246.38,"end":30248.38,"text":"那建議文字的部分就"},{"start":30248.38,"end":30250.38,"text":"議事人員再三確定因為他"},{"start":30250.38,"end":30252.38,"text":"不是版本他不是院版"},{"start":30252.38,"end":30254.38,"text":"只是建議文字所以他"},{"start":30254.38,"end":30256.38,"text":"不會出現在這個黨團"},{"start":30256.38,"end":30258.38,"text":"協商的一個部分那"},{"start":30258.38,"end":30260.38,"text":"我也要跟委員特別報告因為修正動議"},{"start":30260.38,"end":30262.38,"text":"的部分國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":30262.38,"end":30264.38,"text":"雖然是高度"},{"start":30264.38,"end":30266.38,"text":"控制但是我們是以這個"},{"start":30266.38,"end":30268.38,"text":"教育部建議文字為基底"},{"start":30268.38,"end":30270.38,"text":"來做一個發想"},{"start":30270.38,"end":30272.38,"text":"那以上是特別跟委員"},{"start":30272.38,"end":30274.38,"text":"說明不會丟包委員自己"},{"start":30274.38,"end":30276.38,"text":"的版本那也歡迎委員"},{"start":30276.38,"end":30278.38,"text":"再透過委員會"},{"start":30279.64,"end":30281.64,"text":"另外的時間"},{"start":30281.64,"end":30283.64,"text":"自己可以再跟其他委員"},{"start":30283.64,"end":30285.64,"text":"來整合版本"},{"start":30286.04,"end":30288.04,"text":"我們七個人我們的版本"},{"start":30288.04,"end":30290.04,"text":"都在這裡我們很認真"},{"start":30290.04,"end":30292.04,"text":"的逐字在審查"},{"start":30292.04,"end":30294.04,"text":"那你為什麼要我們很認真"},{"start":30294.04,"end":30296.04,"text":"的發言之後我們很認真"},{"start":30296.04,"end":30298.04,"text":"的對每一個字每一個條我們"},{"start":30298.04,"end":30300.04,"text":"還在發言可不可以等我發言完"},{"start":30303.32,"end":30305.32,"text":"我建議你可以整合"},{"start":30305.32,"end":30307.32,"text":"啊你就很氣憤"},{"start":30307.32,"end":30309.32,"text":"你剛剛建議我我的提案版本"},{"start":30309.32,"end":30311.32,"text":"寫得不夠好"},{"start":30311.45,"end":30313.45,"text":"啊我就不能夠說"},{"start":30313.45,"end":30315.45,"text":"那你自己提版本這樣子好像"},{"start":30315.45,"end":30317.45,"text":"又很奇怪所以我說"},{"start":30317.45,"end":30319.45,"text":"將心比心嘛你建議我"},{"start":30319.45,"end":30321.45,"text":"啊我不採納"},{"start":30321.45,"end":30323.45,"text":"那我讓你講完啊我建議你"},{"start":30323.45,"end":30325.45,"text":"我也沒有強制啊"},{"start":30325.45,"end":30327.45,"text":"這個不是有強制"},{"start":30327.45,"end":30329.45,"text":"嘛好不好我只是要告訴"},{"start":30329.45,"end":30331.45,"text":"你你也不要一直提到不用提柯志恩"},{"start":30331.45,"end":30333.45,"text":"他們柯志恩委員"},{"start":30333.45,"end":30335.45,"text":"多次我建議你不採納"},{"start":30335.45,"end":30337.45,"text":"我們七個人建議你都不採納"},{"start":30337.45,"end":30339.45,"text":"我們現在坐在這裡做什麼國民黨"},{"start":30339.45,"end":30341.45,"text":"所有的委員還有民眾黨"},{"start":30341.45,"end":30343.45,"text":"提案的版本"},{"start":30343.45,"end":30345.45,"text":"一直努力的在整合"},{"start":30345.45,"end":30347.45,"text":"這裡面有葉元之的建議"},{"start":30347.45,"end":30349.45,"text":"他一直跟我們開會"},{"start":30349.45,"end":30351.45,"text":"也有謝榮介委員"},{"start":30351.45,"end":30353.45,"text":"也有柯志恩委員也有葛如君委員"},{"start":30353.45,"end":30355.45,"text":"大家一同努力把它整合"},{"start":30355.45,"end":30357.45,"text":"版本今天我們希望透過整合"},{"start":30357.45,"end":30359.45,"text":"的版本彙整來跟大家"},{"start":30359.45,"end":30361.45,"text":"共同討論以上"},{"start":30361.45,"end":30363.45,"text":"簡單的跟大家特別報告"},{"start":30363.45,"end":30365.45,"text":"那接著我們要來處理"},{"start":30365.45,"end":30367.45,"text":"沒有主席我要我剛剛在你發言的時候"},{"start":30367.45,"end":30369.45,"text":"我就舉手而且我很有禮貌不敢打斷你"},{"start":30369.45,"end":30371.45,"text":"我手一直舉著我可以發言嗎"},{"start":30371.45,"end":30373.45,"text":"我認為你沒有打斷我的"},{"start":30373.45,"end":30375.45,"text":"發言是是是所以我一定要尊重"},{"start":30375.45,"end":30377.45,"text":"讓你發言謝謝主席這是"},{"start":30377.45,"end":30379.45,"text":"會議程序"},{"start":30379.54,"end":30381.54,"text":"好我還是要再次強調"},{"start":30382.56,"end":30386.56,"text":"為什麼我要點名這些沒有來的委員我敢點名我就敢說明喔"},{"start":30386.56,"end":30388.56,"text":"我們沒有辦法接受的是你認為"},{"start":30388.56,"end":30390.56,"text":"這個修正動議是今天才提出來的其實"},{"start":30390.56,"end":30392.56,"text":"連教育部國家組也是今天才看到"},{"start":30394.56,"end":30396.56,"text":"食安事件我相信大家都關心喔"},{"start":30396.56,"end":30398.56,"text":"其實不用說誰關心誰不關心"},{"start":30398.56,"end":30400.56,"text":"但我要說的是如果"},{"start":30400.56,"end":30402.56,"text":"這個修正動議主席"},{"start":30402.56,"end":30404.56,"text":"你剛剛公開的說是藍白"},{"start":30404.56,"end":30406.56,"text":"高度共識所以"},{"start":30406.56,"end":30408.56,"text":"你的做法是選擇"},{"start":30408.56,"end":30410.56,"text":"快速出委員會"},{"start":30410.56,"end":30412.56,"text":"而且你認為這樣的結論"},{"start":30412.56,"end":30414.56,"text":"才符合國人關心食安"},{"start":30414.56,"end":30416.56,"text":"那我要說你以為"},{"start":30416.56,"end":30418.56,"text":"你解決了一個問題但我"},{"start":30418.56,"end":30420.56,"text":"會擔心會製造更多的問題"},{"start":30420.56,"end":30422.56,"text":"光是這個版本"},{"start":30422.56,"end":30424.56,"text":"地方政府沒有看過教育部沒有看過"},{"start":30424.56,"end":30426.56,"text":"我不知道未來在"},{"start":30426.56,"end":30428.56,"text":"協商的時候如果"},{"start":30428.56,"end":30430.56,"text":"在那之前所有地方"},{"start":30430.56,"end":30432.56,"text":"政府針對今天要送出去的這些"},{"start":30432.56,"end":30434.56,"text":"提出什麼意義請問誰要來"},{"start":30434.56,"end":30436.56,"text":"負責藍白的這些提案"},{"start":30436.56,"end":30438.56,"text":"的委員也好你們認為有"},{"start":30438.56,"end":30440.56,"text":"高度共識的委員也好真的可以去跟"},{"start":30440.56,"end":30442.56,"text":"地方政府解釋嗎"},{"start":30442.56,"end":30444.56,"text":"還是到時候你們要丟包說"},{"start":30444.56,"end":30446.56,"text":"誰叫教育部沒有院白你們"},{"start":30446.56,"end":30448.56,"text":"只有建議文字"},{"start":30448.56,"end":30450.56,"text":"這麼不負責任的說法"},{"start":30450.56,"end":30452.56,"text":"其實一句政治口水可能就把所有"},{"start":30452.56,"end":30454.56,"text":"過去教育部跟各級"},{"start":30454.56,"end":30456.56,"text":"地方政府在這個議題"},{"start":30456.56,"end":30458.56,"text":"上的努力一筆給抹煞了"},{"start":30458.56,"end":30460.56,"text":"我再次強調"},{"start":30460.56,"end":30462.56,"text":"我沒有說誰的修正動議好或是"},{"start":30462.56,"end":30464.56,"text":"不好剛剛對你的"},{"start":30464.56,"end":30466.56,"text":"第四條跟第五條提出"},{"start":30466.56,"end":30468.56,"text":"建議的是我不是陳秀寶委員"},{"start":30468.56,"end":30470.56,"text":"我要講的是"},{"start":30471.12,"end":30473.12,"text":"你還是沒有回答我第四條跟第五條"},{"start":30473.12,"end":30475.12,"text":"那你就回答我"},{"start":30475.12,"end":30477.12,"text":"第四條跟第五條你這個寫法你自己沒有"},{"start":30477.12,"end":30479.12,"text":"發現了嗎我現在提醒你你要不要"},{"start":30479.12,"end":30481.12,"text":"發現然後你回答我嘛再來"},{"start":30482.11,"end":30484.11,"text":"我不確定主席你有沒有參加過"},{"start":30484.11,"end":30486.11,"text":"所謂的三長加韓國瑜院長的協商"},{"start":30486.11,"end":30488.11,"text":"我們桌上今天所有"},{"start":30488.11,"end":30490.11,"text":"這些厚厚的資料到時候就送到委員會去"},{"start":30490.11,"end":30492.11,"text":"然後我們要所有的"},{"start":30492.11,"end":30494.11,"text":"三長一條一條"},{"start":30494.11,"end":30496.11,"text":"是不是到時候"},{"start":30496.11,"end":30498.11,"text":"真的就像用剛剛秀寶委員"},{"start":30498.11,"end":30500.11,"text":"擔心的最粗暴的方法就是"},{"start":30500.11,"end":30502.11,"text":"用所謂藍白的協議然後就通過了"},{"start":30502.11,"end":30504.11,"text":"然後逼教育部買單"},{"start":30504.11,"end":30506.11,"text":"更不要說後續會不會有多少的費用"},{"start":30506.11,"end":30508.11,"text":"你們會逼著教育部"},{"start":30508.11,"end":30510.11,"text":"要來承擔逼國教署也來承擔"},{"start":30510.11,"end":30512.11,"text":"但是明明開出免費營養午餐"},{"start":30512.11,"end":30514.11,"text":"政策"},{"start":30514.11,"end":30516.11,"text":"紅利支票的是現在的"},{"start":30516.11,"end":30518.11,"text":"地方首長"},{"start":30518.11,"end":30520.11,"text":"這件事情難道不用拿委員會來"},{"start":30520.11,"end":30522.11,"text":"討論嗎我要講的是"},{"start":30522.11,"end":30524.11,"text":"過去教委委員會就算我只有進"},{"start":30524.11,"end":30526.11,"text":"來立法院三年我們在非常"},{"start":30526.11,"end":30528.11,"text":"多有爭議的法案上"},{"start":30528.11,"end":30530.11,"text":"不論是人力的爭議或者是"},{"start":30530.11,"end":30532.11,"text":"資源的爭議預算的爭議"},{"start":30532.11,"end":30534.11,"text":"或者是中央地方分工的爭議"},{"start":30534.11,"end":30536.11,"text":"大家真的要坐下來好好討論"},{"start":30537.74,"end":30539.74,"text":"我們不要因人費言"},{"start":30539.74,"end":30541.74,"text":"也不要因人費事我剛剛雖然"},{"start":30541.74,"end":30543.74,"text":"點名客製人委員今天沒有出席可是"},{"start":30543.74,"end":30545.74,"text":"我也從來沒有否定在學府法的時候"},{"start":30545.74,"end":30547.74,"text":"國民黨民進黨的委員"},{"start":30547.74,"end":30549.74,"text":"大家坐下來認真討論"},{"start":30549.74,"end":30551.74,"text":"關於一筆一筆的錢怎麼算關於"},{"start":30551.74,"end":30553.74,"text":"跟社工之間有沒有什麼進合"},{"start":30553.74,"end":30555.74,"text":"大家是坐下來實質討論的我到現在"},{"start":30555.74,"end":30557.74,"text":"不用談參我都可以舉出一些例子"},{"start":30557.74,"end":30559.74,"text":"所以我要說的是那樣的討論"},{"start":30559.74,"end":30561.74,"text":"花時間的討論是"},{"start":30561.74,"end":30563.74,"text":"極其重要而且極其有意義"},{"start":30563.74,"end":30565.74,"text":"的如果你認為"},{"start":30565.74,"end":30567.74,"text":"我覺得今天快速把它的推出去"},{"start":30567.74,"end":30569.74,"text":"送到委員送到三長"},{"start":30569.74,"end":30571.74,"text":"跟韓國的院長面去協商"},{"start":30571.74,"end":30573.74,"text":"就是所謂的快速解決問題"},{"start":30573.74,"end":30575.74,"text":"那我要問你真的覺得這樣"},{"start":30575.74,"end":30577.74,"text":"就可以快速解決問題嗎會不會"},{"start":30577.74,"end":30579.74,"text":"其實製造並且創造"},{"start":30579.74,"end":30581.74,"text":"更多的問題其實沒有辦法解決"},{"start":30581.74,"end":30583.74,"text":"的所以我認為你既然都已經要排"},{"start":30583.74,"end":30585.74,"text":"審既然認為你是最注重"},{"start":30585.74,"end":30587.74,"text":"這件事情的人那就好好的談"},{"start":30587.74,"end":30589.74,"text":"吧不是只有看電視上的文字"},{"start":30589.74,"end":30591.74,"text":"看完就說好你看陳培芸我有看了"},{"start":30591.74,"end":30593.74,"text":"我看了我看了然後好送出去"},{"start":30594.96,"end":30596.96,"text":"沒有這回事的主席不要"},{"start":30596.96,"end":30598.96,"text":"這麼粗暴不要這麼蠻悍"},{"start":30598.96,"end":30600.96,"text":"不要這麼獨裁不要不理會"},{"start":30600.96,"end":30602.96,"text":"委員會的程序今天"},{"start":30602.96,"end":30604.96,"text":"我們所有人坐在這裡"},{"start":30604.96,"end":30606.96,"text":"我真的覺得我很像在陪"},{"start":30606.96,"end":30608.96,"text":"公子您讀書"},{"start":30611.08,"end":30613.08,"text":"我真的覺得我很像在陪您讀書"},{"start":30613.08,"end":30615.08,"text":"陪公子讀書"},{"start":30615.08,"end":30617.08,"text":"所有人在意的事情你一聲"},{"start":30617.08,"end":30619.08,"text":"不吭不說不回答"},{"start":30619.08,"end":30621.08,"text":"你說了就算"},{"start":30621.08,"end":30623.08,"text":"你要送就送"},{"start":30623.14,"end":30625.14,"text":"我現在就公開要求呼籲"},{"start":30625.14,"end":30627.14,"text":"那海院長要不要來看一看"},{"start":30627.14,"end":30629.14,"text":"你們國民黨的召委是這樣"},{"start":30629.14,"end":30631.14,"text":"對待營養午餐專法"},{"start":30631.14,"end":30633.14,"text":"是這樣關心食安的"},{"start":30634.5,"end":30636.5,"text":"我真的覺得今天所有出席的民進黨委員"},{"start":30636.5,"end":30638.5,"text":"在陪你們這些公子讀書"},{"start":30638.5,"end":30640.5,"text":"陪你們這些不出席的委員"},{"start":30643.91,"end":30645.91,"text":"然後你們說關心"},{"start":30645.87,"end":30647.87,"text":"這是何其荒謬啊"},{"start":30648.23,"end":30650.23,"text":"我們不要再叫文創造這樣的氛圍"},{"start":30650.23,"end":30652.23,"text":"今天我們都已經坐下來了"},{"start":30652.23,"end":30654.23,"text":"上一次我們"},{"start":30654.26,"end":30656.26,"text":"讓國教署長在你們離席之後"},{"start":30656.26,"end":30658.26,"text":"我們讓他說明了五分多鐘"},{"start":30658.26,"end":30660.26,"text":"在跟地方政府溝通上發現的困境"},{"start":30660.26,"end":30662.26,"text":"在跟地方政府溝通上發現的困境"},{"start":30662.26,"end":30664.26,"text":"請大家看一看署長手上有多少資料"},{"start":30664.26,"end":30666.26,"text":"署長花了多少力氣"},{"start":30666.26,"end":30668.26,"text":"在處理這些事情"},{"start":30668.26,"end":30670.26,"text":"但可能過去幾個月幾年來的努力"},{"start":30670.26,"end":30672.26,"text":"就會被這一本薄薄的"},{"start":30674.85,"end":30676.85,"text":"立刻在第一頁就被發現寫錯"},{"start":30676.85,"end":30678.85,"text":"前面一條跟後面一條發生漢革的修正動議"},{"start":30678.85,"end":30680.85,"text":"提案人叫做柯知恩"},{"start":30680.85,"end":30682.85,"text":"羅廷瑋跟蔡春仇"},{"start":30682.85,"end":30684.85,"text":"的這一份版本說是高度藍白共識的版本"},{"start":30684.85,"end":30686.85,"text":"過去署長跟部長的努力"},{"start":30688.89,"end":30690.89,"text":"預算人員的努力法制人員的努力"},{"start":30690.89,"end":30692.89,"text":"地方教育署長的努力就被一筆抹上"},{"start":30693.68,"end":30695.68,"text":"這是你所謂的解決食安問題的方法嗎"},{"start":30695.68,"end":30697.68,"text":"這是你所謂照顧中小學生食安的方法嗎"},{"start":30697.68,"end":30699.68,"text":"這是你認為有效率的方法嗎"},{"start":30699.68,"end":30701.68,"text":"我一點都不這麼認為"},{"start":30704.63,"end":30706.63,"text":"我很樂意"},{"start":30706.4,"end":30708.4,"text":"因為營養午餐因為食安"},{"start":30708.4,"end":30710.4,"text":"因為地方教育局處的權益"},{"start":30710.4,"end":30712.4,"text":"因為國教署的權益"},{"start":30712.4,"end":30714.4,"text":"因為我們詐欺這件事情而坐在這裡"},{"start":30714.4,"end":30716.4,"text":"像是在陪公子讀書一樣"},{"start":30716.4,"end":30718.4,"text":"陪你待到現在"},{"start":30718.4,"end":30720.4,"text":"未來每一個禮拜你輪到召委的時候"},{"start":30720.4,"end":30722.4,"text":"我相信你會繼續排"},{"start":30721.88,"end":30723.88,"text":"我們就繼續"},{"start":30723.88,"end":30725.88,"text":"讓國人看看我們的羅廷瑋召委選擇"},{"start":30725.88,"end":30727.88,"text":"用這樣的方法對待營養午餐"},{"start":30730.72,"end":30732.72,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":30732.72,"end":30734.72,"text":"那也跟委員特別報告"},{"start":30734.72,"end":30736.72,"text":"黨團協商或者是院長協調的時候"},{"start":30736.72,"end":30738.72,"text":"機關部會都可以提出建議文字"},{"start":30738.72,"end":30740.72,"text":"來加以修正"},{"start":30740.72,"end":30742.72,"text":"公語會的委員都會現場來做參考"},{"start":30742.72,"end":30746.72,"text":"那委員比較擔心的部分"},{"start":30746.72,"end":30748.72,"text":"我想"},{"start":30748.72,"end":30750.72,"text":"因為剛剛委員也有提案"},{"start":30750.72,"end":30752.72,"text":"是直接照教育部版本通過"},{"start":30754.16,"end":30756.16,"text":"對嘛"},{"start":30756.16,"end":30758.16,"text":"那所以只是因為有其他的委員也有其他的意見"},{"start":30758.16,"end":30760.16,"text":"所以我們在目前為止沒辦法整合起來"},{"start":30760.16,"end":30762.16,"text":"所以就想說送院會協商處理"},{"start":30762.16,"end":30764.16,"text":"並沒有說"},{"start":30764.16,"end":30766.16,"text":"要用透過非常強硬的方式"},{"start":30766.16,"end":30768.16,"text":"那這個也是因為你們有前"},{"start":30768.16,"end":30770.16,"text":"有提出"},{"start":30770.16,"end":30772.16,"text":"希望照教育部版本"},{"start":30772.16,"end":30774.16,"text":"看得出來現場的委員"},{"start":30774.16,"end":30776.16,"text":"也是非常用心"},{"start":30776.16,"end":30778.16,"text":"希望能夠有推進的部分"},{"start":30778.16,"end":30780.16,"text":"那希望能夠把營養午餐法持續的"},{"start":30780.16,"end":30782.16,"text":"再有所精進喔"},{"start":30782.16,"end":30784.16,"text":"所以我想這個部分也跟大家做一個特別報告"},{"start":30784.16,"end":30786.16,"text":"那所以我們今天"},{"start":30786.16,"end":30788.16,"text":"並不是說"},{"start":30788.16,"end":30790.16,"text":"陪誰修法"},{"start":30790.16,"end":30792.16,"text":"你們大家都很認真喔"},{"start":30792.16,"end":30794.16,"text":"但是也有教育部建議文字嘛"},{"start":30794.16,"end":30796.16,"text":"那可能就是因為沒有辦法"},{"start":30796.16,"end":30798.16,"text":"只透過教育部建議文字"},{"start":30798.16,"end":30800.16,"text":"那其他的委員有建議"},{"start":30800.16,"end":30802.16,"text":"那所以我們就有需要再協商"},{"start":30802.16,"end":30804.16,"text":"所以透過保留送院會處理"},{"start":30804.16,"end":30806.16,"text":"大家再透過協商的方式"},{"start":30806.16,"end":30808.16,"text":"再生產出更多的一些共識之外"},{"start":30808.16,"end":30810.16,"text":"在協商的過程"},{"start":30810.16,"end":30812.16,"text":"我們可能有一些共識然後把它定掉"},{"start":30812.16,"end":30814.16,"text":"如果沒有共識的話"},{"start":30814.16,"end":30816.16,"text":"最後才送院會表決處理"},{"start":30816.16,"end":30818.16,"text":"所以我們跟大家特別報告"},{"start":30818.16,"end":30820.16,"text":"不是直接表決喔"},{"start":30820.16,"end":30822.16,"text":"我們是送院會協商"},{"start":30822.16,"end":30824.16,"text":"那到時候山長像剛剛委員也有提到"},{"start":30824.16,"end":30826.16,"text":"他很擔心山長啊"},{"start":30826.16,"end":30828.16,"text":"不了解這個法案啊"},{"start":30828.16,"end":30830.16,"text":"所以希望說有教文的陪同"},{"start":30830.16,"end":30832.16,"text":"我想蔡市長委員"},{"start":30832.16,"end":30834.16,"text":"跟我也都在這邊現場同意喔"},{"start":30834.16,"end":30836.16,"text":"山長在協商的過程我們都願意陪伴"},{"start":30836.16,"end":30838.16,"text":"來說明我們的院會"},{"start":30838.16,"end":30840.16,"text":"這是應該要把它說清楚講明白"},{"start":30840.16,"end":30842.16,"text":"那再來就是"},{"start":30842.16,"end":30844.16,"text":"剛剛委員對於我們的版本"},{"start":30844.16,"end":30846.16,"text":"有這個用字遣詞啊"},{"start":30846.16,"end":30848.16,"text":"有相互憨格"},{"start":30848.16,"end":30850.16,"text":"這是委員的"},{"start":30852.74,"end":30854.74,"text":"評斷啊"},{"start":30854.74,"end":30856.74,"text":"那我們當然尊重"},{"start":30856.74,"end":30858.74,"text":"那基本上呢還是希望說"},{"start":30858.74,"end":30860.74,"text":"委員如果您覺得這個有憨格的部分"},{"start":30860.74,"end":30862.74,"text":"您覺得有不同的是不是"},{"start":30862.74,"end":30864.74,"text":"你也可以提出你的版本"},{"start":30864.74,"end":30866.74,"text":"我們就直接推進"},{"start":30866.74,"end":30868.74,"text":"那現在教育部主管機關要建議"},{"start":30868.74,"end":30870.74,"text":"要發言喔請說"},{"start":30870.74,"end":30872.74,"text":"謝謝趙偉都很尊重我們"},{"start":30872.74,"end":30874.74,"text":"那我這個主管機關的部分有幾個"},{"start":30874.74,"end":30876.74,"text":"剛剛有跟包含蔡委員"},{"start":30876.74,"end":30878.74,"text":"還有相關提案的委員"},{"start":30878.74,"end":30880.74,"text":"說明目前第四條"},{"start":30880.74,"end":30884.74,"text":"那委員提案增列第二項這個"},{"start":30885.77,"end":30887.77,"text":"那因為它非常的涉及到"},{"start":30887.77,"end":30889.77,"text":"地方政府尤其是學校"},{"start":30889.77,"end":30891.77,"text":"剛剛蔡委員"},{"start":30891.77,"end":30893.77,"text":"有提到"},{"start":30893.77,"end":30895.77,"text":"夜光天使"},{"start":30896.52,"end":30898.52,"text":"夜光天使現在"},{"start":30899.2,"end":30901.2,"text":"全國我們高中以下的班"},{"start":30901.2,"end":30903.2,"text":"有九萬多個班"},{"start":30904.18,"end":30906.18,"text":"他是756班"},{"start":30906.49,"end":30908.49,"text":"算是不多"},{"start":30908.49,"end":30910.49,"text":"不多的班但是"},{"start":30911.38,"end":30913.38,"text":"如果以他現在"},{"start":30913.56,"end":30915.56,"text":"他在進行的"},{"start":30915.56,"end":30917.56,"text":"我們所有師長們都滿"},{"start":30917.53,"end":30919.53,"text":"應應學生的需求"},{"start":30919.53,"end":30921.53,"text":"那麼因為他也相對比較偏鄉"},{"start":30923.43,"end":30925.43,"text":"他不太能夠用中午的那個廚房"},{"start":30927.52,"end":30929.52,"text":"繼續"},{"start":30928.83,"end":30930.83,"text":"所以他公餐要靈活一點"},{"start":30930.83,"end":30932.83,"text":"比較能夠"},{"start":30932.53,"end":30934.53,"text":"幫忙學校能夠運作"},{"start":30934.53,"end":30936.53,"text":"也能夠幫忙這些比較辛苦的"},{"start":30936.53,"end":30938.53,"text":"家庭的孩子"},{"start":30938.53,"end":30940.53,"text":"所以這個是指晚餐"},{"start":30941.22,"end":30943.22,"text":"另外"},{"start":30943.06,"end":30945.06,"text":"替代公餐"},{"start":30945.06,"end":30947.06,"text":"有提到這個"},{"start":30946.38,"end":30948.38,"text":"可能會更讓"},{"start":30948.42,"end":30950.42,"text":"基層的"},{"start":30950.42,"end":30952.42,"text":"我們的基層的夥伴已經很辛苦"},{"start":30952.42,"end":30954.42,"text":"看到這個恐怕他"},{"start":30954.42,"end":30956.42,"text":"就會變成比較多的延伸"},{"start":30957.65,"end":30959.65,"text":"這就會讓我們的老師"},{"start":30959.65,"end":30961.65,"text":"現在已經很辛苦"},{"start":30961.55,"end":30963.55,"text":"然後又有"},{"start":30963.39,"end":30965.39,"text":"四條的第二項這樣的文字"},{"start":30967.37,"end":30969.37,"text":"然後如果是我們"},{"start":30969.43,"end":30971.43,"text":"以教文委員的名義"},{"start":30971.43,"end":30973.43,"text":"那老師也不一定知道"},{"start":30974.6,"end":30976.6,"text":"然後在協商的話"},{"start":30976.6,"end":30977.6,"text":"我怕"},{"start":30977.6,"end":30979.6,"text":"昭偉其實也很理解現場"},{"start":30980.96,"end":30982.96,"text":"這樣對本委員會"},{"start":30982.96,"end":30984.96,"text":"長期以來一直解決"},{"start":30984.96,"end":30986.96,"text":"不管行政減量"},{"start":30987.84,"end":30989.84,"text":"或是老師很辛苦"},{"start":30990.58,"end":30994.58,"text":"怎麼樣幫他們可以化解一些"},{"start":30994.58,"end":30996.58,"text":"已經很辛苦的部分"},{"start":30996.58,"end":30998.58,"text":"讓他更容易的留在職場上"},{"start":30998.85,"end":31000.85,"text":"甚至我們也讓他"},{"start":31000.85,"end":31002.85,"text":"可以更解決他的一些"},{"start":31003.18,"end":31005.18,"text":"為難之處"},{"start":31005.18,"end":31007.18,"text":"但是這個第四條"},{"start":31007.18,"end":31009.18,"text":"第二項我看到了"},{"start":31009.18,"end":31011.18,"text":"我們"},{"start":31008.87,"end":31010.87,"text":"一方面也沒有跟地方"},{"start":31010.87,"end":31012.87,"text":"好好的了解一下"},{"start":31012.62,"end":31014.62,"text":"這樣的一個條文會不會讓他們"},{"start":31014.62,"end":31016.62,"text":"很錯愕"},{"start":31016.62,"end":31018.62,"text":"二方面"},{"start":31017.32,"end":31019.32,"text":"我深深覺得"},{"start":31019.21,"end":31021.21,"text":"基層老師看到"},{"start":31021.26,"end":31023.26,"text":"可能他會不知道"},{"start":31023.45,"end":31025.45,"text":"這個是十幾位委員"},{"start":31025.45,"end":31027.45,"text":"或是教育部"},{"start":31027.45,"end":31029.45,"text":"甚至地方政府最後就"},{"start":31030.13,"end":31032.13,"text":"拋錄"},{"start":31032.41,"end":31034.41,"text":"大委員會"},{"start":31034.41,"end":31036.41,"text":"院會那邊去溝通"},{"start":31036.41,"end":31038.41,"text":"我怕"},{"start":31036.61,"end":31038.61,"text":"會造成對"},{"start":31038.61,"end":31040.61,"text":"院裡面的誤會"},{"start":31040.61,"end":31042.61,"text":"這個文字真的讓我們的基層老師"},{"start":31043.87,"end":31045.87,"text":"可能真的會很辛苦"},{"start":31046.5,"end":31048.5,"text":"那地方也會覺得這個延伸"},{"start":31048.5,"end":31050.5,"text":"跟現況"},{"start":31050.3,"end":31052.3,"text":"的工作差異很大"},{"start":31052.3,"end":31054.3,"text":"如果拿這個文字"},{"start":31054.3,"end":31056.3,"text":"要進到大委員會去"},{"start":31056.88,"end":31058.88,"text":"協調"},{"start":31058.9,"end":31060.9,"text":"我覺得這個可能會對"},{"start":31060.9,"end":31062.9,"text":"召委會不會很不好意思"},{"start":31064.07,"end":31066.07,"text":"您長期這麼關心基層"},{"start":31066.67,"end":31068.67,"text":"那你再看一下"},{"start":31068.67,"end":31070.67,"text":"目前這個條文"},{"start":31072.39,"end":31074.39,"text":"午餐"},{"start":31073.89,"end":31075.89,"text":"還有晚餐"},{"start":31075.66,"end":31077.66,"text":"海鼠架公餐"},{"start":31077.66,"end":31079.66,"text":"然後再拉了一個替代公餐"},{"start":31079.66,"end":31081.66,"text":"可能請召委會"},{"start":31082.34,"end":31084.34,"text":"還有蔡委員也在現場"},{"start":31084.34,"end":31086.34,"text":"另外在"},{"start":31085.62,"end":31087.62,"text":"掌握"},{"start":31087.62,"end":31089.62,"text":"給我們機會跟地方"},{"start":31089.62,"end":31091.62,"text":"溝通"},{"start":31091.24,"end":31093.24,"text":"我們長期的經驗"},{"start":31093.24,"end":31095.24,"text":"會覺得"},{"start":31094.95,"end":31096.95,"text":"可能會要非常"},{"start":31096.95,"end":31098.95,"text":"用力跟地方跟"},{"start":31098.95,"end":31100.95,"text":"學校來說明"},{"start":31100.95,"end":31102.95,"text":"說有這樣的一個文字"},{"start":31102.95,"end":31104.95,"text":"那我們站在原則上"},{"start":31104.95,"end":31106.95,"text":"我們覺得這樣的文字"},{"start":31108.06,"end":31110.06,"text":"可能跟現在"},{"start":31110.06,"end":31112.06,"text":"學校已經這麼努力"},{"start":31112.06,"end":31114.06,"text":"還要再這樣"},{"start":31114.06,"end":31116.06,"text":"他們不知道這個拿去"},{"start":31116.06,"end":31118.06,"text":"在大會那邊說"},{"start":31118.06,"end":31120.06,"text":"這個可能他們會不知道"},{"start":31119.79,"end":31121.79,"text":"這一點可能會對"},{"start":31121.79,"end":31123.79,"text":"所有今天參與的委員"},{"start":31123.79,"end":31125.79,"text":"包含召委跟提案的委員"},{"start":31125.79,"end":31127.79,"text":"可能會有誤會"},{"start":31127.79,"end":31129.79,"text":"我把這個原則跟大家報告一下"},{"start":31132.15,"end":31134.15,"text":"好謝謝我們國家署署長"},{"start":31134.15,"end":31136.15,"text":"特別說明"},{"start":31136.15,"end":31138.15,"text":"所以我再次的強調"},{"start":31140.75,"end":31142.75,"text":"我們提案委員的版本跟修正動議"},{"start":31142.75,"end":31144.75,"text":"會一併送出"},{"start":31144.75,"end":31146.75,"text":"我們今天不是照"},{"start":31146.75,"end":31148.75,"text":"我們現在的修正動議"},{"start":31148.75,"end":31150.75,"text":"照案通過"},{"start":31150.75,"end":31152.75,"text":"所以請看著直播的國人"},{"start":31152.75,"end":31154.75,"text":"還有國教署教育部"},{"start":31154.75,"end":31156.75,"text":"不用擔心"},{"start":31156.75,"end":31158.75,"text":"今天我們不是照這個版本就直接通過"},{"start":31158.75,"end":31160.75,"text":"我們還有後續的程序"},{"start":31160.75,"end":31162.75,"text":"那個程序叫做院會協商"},{"start":31162.75,"end":31164.75,"text":"那也會由我親自來主持"},{"start":31164.75,"end":31166.75,"text":"相關的這個"},{"start":31167.97,"end":31169.97,"text":"院會協商的過程"},{"start":31169.97,"end":31171.97,"text":"協商的部分我會處理"},{"start":31171.97,"end":31173.97,"text":"院會協商可能就要三長"},{"start":31173.97,"end":31175.97,"text":"我也會"},{"start":31175.58,"end":31177.58,"text":"一定要建議"},{"start":31177.58,"end":31179.58,"text":"三長一定要讓我們參加"},{"start":31179.58,"end":31181.58,"text":"還是心心念念要特別拜託教育部"},{"start":31181.58,"end":31183.58,"text":"教育部如果覺得"},{"start":31183.58,"end":31185.58,"text":"自己的建議文字"},{"start":31185.58,"end":31187.58,"text":"這麼棒的話"},{"start":31187.58,"end":31189.58,"text":"還是趕快出院版"},{"start":31189.58,"end":31191.58,"text":"趕快出教育部自己的版本"},{"start":31191.58,"end":31193.58,"text":"這個部分是最能夠"},{"start":31193.58,"end":31195.58,"text":"貼近大家現場的需求"},{"start":31195.58,"end":31197.58,"text":"那我想剛剛因為"},{"start":31197.58,"end":31199.58,"text":"今天不是說不要過這個版本"},{"start":31199.58,"end":31201.58,"text":"教育部也很堅持"},{"start":31201.58,"end":31203.58,"text":"自己的版本可能會比較"},{"start":31203.58,"end":31205.58,"text":"用字譴詞比較不會這麼的讓大家"},{"start":31205.58,"end":31207.58,"text":"擔憂"},{"start":31207.58,"end":31209.58,"text":"那我們都尊重"},{"start":31209.58,"end":31211.58,"text":"所以我們所通過的是保留"},{"start":31211.58,"end":31213.58,"text":"協商處理"},{"start":31213.58,"end":31215.58,"text":"並不是照案通過任何一個版本"},{"start":31215.58,"end":31217.58,"text":"這以上簡單跟大家報告"},{"start":31218.5,"end":31220.5,"text":"主席我有舉手"},{"start":31220.5,"end":31222.5,"text":"我很乖我等到你講完我都沒有"},{"start":31222.5,"end":31224.5,"text":"把手放下來"},{"start":31224.5,"end":31226.5,"text":"我就跟你講過了"},{"start":31226.5,"end":31228.5,"text":"只要你大家照議事程序規則你"},{"start":31228.5,"end":31230.5,"text":"舉手你沒有打斷別人我們一定會尊重你"},{"start":31230.5,"end":31232.5,"text":"讓你講話請放心好不好"},{"start":31232.94,"end":31234.94,"text":"好接下來陳培育委員"},{"start":31235.1,"end":31237.1,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":31237.6,"end":31239.6,"text":"謝謝署長剛剛"},{"start":31239.83,"end":31241.83,"text":"謝謝署長剛剛針對那個午餐晚餐"},{"start":31241.83,"end":31243.83,"text":"寒假的部分先提出你們"},{"start":31243.83,"end":31245.83,"text":"的建議跟第一線參考意見"},{"start":31245.83,"end":31247.83,"text":"我也想要舉一個例子目前"},{"start":31247.83,"end":31249.83,"text":"我們在看到其實雙北的老師"},{"start":31249.83,"end":31251.83,"text":"在營養午餐最近"},{"start":31251.83,"end":31253.83,"text":"有一些新聞是這樣說的"},{"start":31253.83,"end":31255.83,"text":"說那個學生營養午餐免費"},{"start":31255.83,"end":31257.83,"text":"然後課後班"},{"start":31257.83,"end":31259.83,"text":"的學生也要留下來把飯吃完"},{"start":31259.83,"end":31261.83,"text":"再回家也就是所有"},{"start":31261.83,"end":31263.83,"text":"的小孩都免費了可是當"},{"start":31263.83,"end":31265.83,"text":"所有的小孩都免費要留下來吃飯的時候"},{"start":31265.83,"end":31267.83,"text":"就衍生出了另外一個問題就是"},{"start":31267.83,"end":31269.83,"text":"老師要留下來陪小孩吃飯"},{"start":31269.83,"end":31271.83,"text":"那老師要留下來陪小孩吃飯"},{"start":31271.83,"end":31273.83,"text":"過去有的導師他"},{"start":31273.83,"end":31275.83,"text":"如果孩子已經放學了沒有留下來吃飯"},{"start":31275.83,"end":31277.83,"text":"導師就可以先走他可以自己去處理午餐"},{"start":31277.83,"end":31279.83,"text":"他自己愛花多少錢愛去吃"},{"start":31279.83,"end":31281.83,"text":"多少東西這是老師的自由"},{"start":31281.83,"end":31283.83,"text":"那因為老師要留下來陪孩子們吃飯"},{"start":31283.83,"end":31285.83,"text":"所以就有縣市政府說那我們就來"},{"start":31285.83,"end":31287.83,"text":"幫老師出錢吧這樣一餐不論"},{"start":31287.83,"end":31289.83,"text":"是多少錢可是對老師來說"},{"start":31289.83,"end":31291.83,"text":"這個出吃飯的錢不是"},{"start":31291.83,"end":31293.83,"text":"關鍵重點而是說老師"},{"start":31293.83,"end":31295.83,"text":"原本的課後休息時間就因為"},{"start":31295.83,"end":31297.83,"text":"就消失了嘛他必須要陪孩子"},{"start":31297.83,"end":31299.83,"text":"一定要吃完午餐再走"},{"start":31299.83,"end":31301.83,"text":"那就產生了很多的爭議"},{"start":31301.83,"end":31303.83,"text":"我的意思就是說剛剛署長其實"},{"start":31303.83,"end":31305.83,"text":"在講的就是這件事情光是"},{"start":31305.83,"end":31307.83,"text":"陪孩子留下來吃一樣午餐這件事情"},{"start":31307.83,"end":31309.83,"text":"其實很多老師第一線老師"},{"start":31309.83,"end":31311.83,"text":"已經把基層的聲音"},{"start":31311.83,"end":31313.83,"text":"反應給很多縣市政府了"},{"start":31314.94,"end":31316.94,"text":"而這個聲音就像剛剛署長"},{"start":31316.94,"end":31318.94,"text":"所說的未來如果通過的版本"},{"start":31320.44,"end":31322.44,"text":"是沒有經過委員會的教文委員細緻的討論"},{"start":31322.44,"end":31324.44,"text":"只有留到協商去"},{"start":31324.44,"end":31326.44,"text":"真的我們所有的立法委員"},{"start":31326.44,"end":31328.44,"text":"都會被誤會"},{"start":31328.44,"end":31330.44,"text":"甚至不了解議事程序的人"},{"start":31330.44,"end":31332.44,"text":"如果去翻開今天的議事物"},{"start":31332.44,"end":31334.44,"text":"相關公報發現天啊"},{"start":31334.44,"end":31336.44,"text":"全部都是民進黨委員坐在現場"},{"start":31336.98,"end":31338.98,"text":"聽好喔全部都是民進黨委員坐在現場"},{"start":31338.98,"end":31340.98,"text":"所以難道是民進黨委員"},{"start":31340.98,"end":31342.98,"text":"要迫害現場老師做出這個決議嗎"},{"start":31342.98,"end":31344.98,"text":"當然不是我剛剛的說法跟建議"},{"start":31344.98,"end":31346.98,"text":"非常的清楚請主席再聽一次"},{"start":31346.98,"end":31348.98,"text":"既然你都說了有冷凍期"},{"start":31348.98,"end":31350.98,"text":"一個月那主席你不要放在那裡"},{"start":31350.98,"end":31352.98,"text":"冷凍太可惜了不要把它冰起來"},{"start":31352.98,"end":31354.98,"text":"你這麼熱情這麼熱心這麼想要"},{"start":31354.98,"end":31356.98,"text":"解決這個問題這一個月不要"},{"start":31356.98,"end":31358.98,"text":"冰起來主席"},{"start":31358.98,"end":31360.98,"text":"在未來這一個月你至少還有兩次"},{"start":31360.98,"end":31362.98,"text":"兩個禮拜會輪到你當召委"},{"start":31362.98,"end":31364.98,"text":"這兩個禮拜當中你可以"},{"start":31364.98,"end":31366.98,"text":"你包起來134134都排營養午餐"},{"start":31366.98,"end":31368.98,"text":"你有六次的機會"},{"start":31368.98,"end":31370.98,"text":"可以好好的逐條審查"},{"start":31370.98,"end":31372.98,"text":"然後我們再回來"},{"start":31372.98,"end":31374.98,"text":"review所有的版本"},{"start":31374.98,"end":31376.98,"text":"等到所有版本期益最小"},{"start":31377.38,"end":31379.38,"text":"分針最小留到協商現場"},{"start":31379.38,"end":31381.38,"text":"那個是最有效率的"},{"start":31381.38,"end":31383.38,"text":"也就是說我們把前面這一個月"},{"start":31383.38,"end":31385.38,"text":"冷凍期拿來做在委員會"},{"start":31385.38,"end":31387.38,"text":"裡面該做的事情"},{"start":31387.38,"end":31389.38,"text":"真的是比較好的做法"},{"start":31389.93,"end":31391.93,"text":"那我認為我這個建議"},{"start":31391.93,"end":31393.93,"text":"真的是本著良心也本著"},{"start":31393.93,"end":31395.93,"text":"希望這個法案最後"},{"start":31395.93,"end":31397.93,"text":"送出去的內容真的是"},{"start":31397.93,"end":31399.93,"text":"一兼顧地方跟中央的分工"},{"start":31399.93,"end":31401.93,"text":"二兼顧裁員跟人力"},{"start":31401.93,"end":31403.93,"text":"三兼顧教師"},{"start":31403.93,"end":31405.93,"text":"家長還有學生的權益"},{"start":31405.93,"end":31407.93,"text":"最後兼顧一個"},{"start":31407.93,"end":31409.93,"text":"負責任的立法委員可以做的事情"},{"start":31409.93,"end":31411.93,"text":"所以主席不要冷凍一個月"},{"start":31411.93,"end":31413.93,"text":"太可惜了雖然"},{"start":31413.93,"end":31415.93,"text":"現在夏天很熱但不要冷凍"},{"start":31415.93,"end":31417.93,"text":"我們那一個月裡面主席你有兩周"},{"start":31417.93,"end":31419.93,"text":"你一三四一三四"},{"start":31419.93,"end":31421.93,"text":"貓起來排"},{"start":31421.07,"end":31423.07,"text":"反正你們國民黨都延會了嘛"},{"start":31423.07,"end":31425.07,"text":"你們因為要開司法保護傘"},{"start":31425.07,"end":31427.07,"text":"貓起來延會了那你就開開好開慢"},{"start":31427.07,"end":31429.07,"text":"我們就陪你做好做滿"},{"start":31429.07,"end":31431.07,"text":"我們陪你一起討論國民黨不來柯志銘不來"},{"start":31431.07,"end":31433.07,"text":"謝榮介不來葉仁芝不來"},{"start":31433.07,"end":31435.07,"text":"葛如君不來沒關係"},{"start":31435.07,"end":31437.07,"text":"我們來陪你談然後就一條一條"},{"start":31437.07,"end":31439.07,"text":"談我真的再次強烈"},{"start":31439.07,"end":31441.07,"text":"建議公開呼籲拜託"},{"start":31441.07,"end":31443.07,"text":"主席懇求主席"},{"start":31443.07,"end":31445.07,"text":"不要這麼草率的"},{"start":31445.07,"end":31447.07,"text":"把所有沒有辦法經過主條"},{"start":31447.07,"end":31449.07,"text":"討論的東西全部丟報到協商去"},{"start":31449.07,"end":31451.07,"text":"那個真的不是一個好的處理"},{"start":31451.07,"end":31453.07,"text":"民生法案"},{"start":31453.07,"end":31455.07,"text":"而且試射這麼多學生權益"},{"start":31455.07,"end":31457.07,"text":"不要忘了他有幼兒園"},{"start":31457.07,"end":31459.07,"text":"他有小學六年國中三年"},{"start":31459.07,"end":31461.07,"text":"還有高中這麼多學生"},{"start":31461.07,"end":31463.07,"text":"三千多所中小學的權益"},{"start":31463.07,"end":31465.07,"text":"不應該在我們教文被這樣對待"},{"start":31468.38,"end":31470.38,"text":"好說到這個"},{"start":31470.38,"end":31472.38,"text":"我還是呼應"},{"start":31472.38,"end":31474.38,"text":"我們培育委員真的處理民生法案"},{"start":31474.38,"end":31476.38,"text":"我們也希望行政院"},{"start":31476.38,"end":31478.38,"text":"應該要負責任提出自己的願板"},{"start":31478.38,"end":31480.38,"text":"不要讓我們等了等"},{"start":31480.38,"end":31482.38,"text":"還是等不到就一直持續的"},{"start":31482.38,"end":31484.38,"text":"放在這邊冷凍"},{"start":31484.38,"end":31486.38,"text":"那剛剛委員有提議就是說"},{"start":31486.38,"end":31488.38,"text":"我還有排案的時間"},{"start":31488.38,"end":31490.38,"text":"那我也是覺得時間不太夠"},{"start":31490.38,"end":31492.38,"text":"所以我也很希望說未來"},{"start":31492.38,"end":31494.38,"text":"能夠有各種"},{"start":31494.38,"end":31496.38,"text":"你擦花了 我應該擦水對不起我等一下再舉手"},{"start":31496.38,"end":31498.38,"text":"這樣不行啊"},{"start":31499.15,"end":31501.15,"text":"我都讓你完整論述你都不讓我論述"},{"start":31504.92,"end":31506.92,"text":"當然我可以"},{"start":31506.92,"end":31508.92,"text":"你說的嘛"},{"start":31508.92,"end":31510.92,"text":"不要冷凍期一個月繼續排審"},{"start":31510.92,"end":31512.92,"text":"但是我也要回應一下委員"},{"start":31512.92,"end":31514.92,"text":"因為其他還有運動部"},{"start":31514.92,"end":31516.92,"text":"那文化部"},{"start":31516.92,"end":31518.92,"text":"有相關的一些專案報告"},{"start":31518.92,"end":31520.92,"text":"那包括我們的這個"},{"start":31520.92,"end":31522.92,"text":"國民體育法"},{"start":31522.92,"end":31524.92,"text":"在還沒有處理兒童工作證"},{"start":31524.92,"end":31526.92,"text":"之前相關的事情"},{"start":31526.92,"end":31528.92,"text":"是不是有一個配套"},{"start":31528.92,"end":31530.92,"text":"來協助處理"},{"start":31530.92,"end":31532.92,"text":"那上次我還有提到這個電競專法"},{"start":31532.92,"end":31534.92,"text":"那這些都是我很關注的一些法案"},{"start":31534.92,"end":31536.92,"text":"所以我自己的時間也都不夠"},{"start":31536.92,"end":31538.92,"text":"那委員既然這麼支持我"},{"start":31538.92,"end":31540.92,"text":"希望我能夠持續的排審喔"},{"start":31540.92,"end":31542.92,"text":"是不是也麻煩委員幫我"},{"start":31542.92,"end":31544.92,"text":"建議一下民進黨黨團是不是就直接把"},{"start":31544.92,"end":31546.92,"text":"下週的排審也都丟給羅廷瑋"},{"start":31546.92,"end":31548.92,"text":"讓我來處理 我會讓你看到我滿滿的誠意"},{"start":31548.92,"end":31550.92,"text":"我一定會讓你看到我持續"},{"start":31550.92,"end":31552.92,"text":"不會放棄堅持的一個理念"},{"start":31552.92,"end":31554.92,"text":"我會繼續排給你看"},{"start":31554.92,"end":31556.92,"text":"那我的時間是真的不夠用"},{"start":31556.92,"end":31558.92,"text":"所以我必須要透過"},{"start":31558.92,"end":31560.92,"text":"我能夠擔任召委的時候來推進"},{"start":31560.92,"end":31562.92,"text":"那以上簡單的跟您報告"},{"start":31562.92,"end":31565.92,"text":"那因為裴委員您多次發言"},{"start":31565.92,"end":31567.92,"text":"然後剛剛又還有打斷我的發言"},{"start":31567.92,"end":31570.92,"text":"那比較沒有尊重這個議事程序"},{"start":31570.92,"end":31573.92,"text":"那所以我就先交給蔡村守委員發言"},{"start":31573.92,"end":31574.92,"text":"因為他有舉手"},{"start":31574.92,"end":31576.92,"text":"而且他沒有這麼多次發言 不好意思"},{"start":31578.42,"end":31580.42,"text":"好"},{"start":31580.06,"end":31583.06,"text":"那那個針對剛剛署長呢"},{"start":31583.06,"end":31586.06,"text":"對於這個學校的午餐"},{"start":31586.06,"end":31588.06,"text":"那有關於晚餐的部分"},{"start":31588.06,"end":31590.06,"text":"那是月光天使"},{"start":31590.06,"end":31592.06,"text":"那通常這個月光天使"},{"start":31592.06,"end":31594.06,"text":"他是留下來"},{"start":31594.06,"end":31596.06,"text":"然後他有他一定的"},{"start":31596.06,"end":31598.06,"text":"不是他們班的導師留下來"},{"start":31598.06,"end":31600.06,"text":"因為他是前部的學生"},{"start":31600.06,"end":31602.06,"text":"留部分的學生留下來"},{"start":31602.06,"end":31604.06,"text":"還有他主管"},{"start":31604.06,"end":31606.06,"text":"他的那個"},{"start":31606.06,"end":31608.06,"text":"這個月光天使的主任還有老師"},{"start":31608.06,"end":31610.06,"text":"來做處理"},{"start":31610.06,"end":31612.06,"text":"但是沒有關係 我覺得說"},{"start":31612.06,"end":31614.06,"text":"我們署長的一個說明也很清楚"},{"start":31614.06,"end":31616.06,"text":"可能就是說會造成學校"},{"start":31616.06,"end":31618.06,"text":"很多的一個困擾"},{"start":31618.06,"end":31620.06,"text":"那這個呢"},{"start":31620.06,"end":31622.06,"text":"我也同意就用那個"},{"start":31622.06,"end":31624.06,"text":"教育部的那個條例"},{"start":31624.06,"end":31626.06,"text":"的一個版本來處理"},{"start":31626.06,"end":31628.06,"text":"以上"},{"start":31631.23,"end":31633.23,"text":"這樣子我一個建議"},{"start":31633.61,"end":31635.61,"text":"那個村長委員"},{"start":31635.61,"end":31637.61,"text":"因為其實他們剛剛也有建議"},{"start":31637.61,"end":31641.61,"text":"第四條照教育部的版本"},{"start":31641.61,"end":31643.61,"text":"那"},{"start":31644.17,"end":31646.17,"text":"國教署長也有開口"},{"start":31646.17,"end":31648.17,"text":"說怕有誤會"},{"start":31648.17,"end":31650.17,"text":"那他們的文字比較"},{"start":31650.17,"end":31652.17,"text":"可以有這個空間"},{"start":31652.17,"end":31654.17,"text":"是不是我們也不要這麼堅持"},{"start":31654.17,"end":31656.17,"text":"第四條我認為是可以照"},{"start":31656.17,"end":31658.17,"text":"教育部建議修正"},{"start":31658.48,"end":31660.48,"text":"教育部版本"},{"start":31660.48,"end":31662.48,"text":"建議文字修正好不好"},{"start":31662.48,"end":31664.48,"text":"那我們兩個沒意見配合大家嗎"},{"start":31665.15,"end":31667.15,"text":"好"},{"start":31668.15,"end":31670.15,"text":"教育部的建議文字"},{"start":31670.15,"end":31672.15,"text":"是本條例所稱學校"},{"start":31672.15,"end":31674.15,"text":"指高級中等以下學校"},{"start":31674.15,"end":31676.15,"text":"那這個部分呢"},{"start":31676.15,"end":31678.15,"text":"因為剛剛有委員也特別提議"},{"start":31678.15,"end":31680.15,"text":"那是要以教育部"},{"start":31680.15,"end":31682.15,"text":"建議修正文字"},{"start":31682.36,"end":31684.36,"text":"那我們就第四條"},{"start":31684.59,"end":31686.59,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":31686.69,"end":31688.69,"text":"照教育部建議的文字"},{"start":31691.2,"end":31693.2,"text":"好我們繼續往下推進"},{"start":31697.53,"end":31699.53,"text":"好現在來到了第五條"},{"start":31699.53,"end":31701.53,"text":"那第五條因為"},{"start":31701.53,"end":31703.53,"text":"第五條又重新開始計算我們的發言次數了"},{"start":31703.53,"end":31705.53,"text":"那就請我們的這一個"},{"start":31705.53,"end":31707.53,"text":"那個"},{"start":31707.53,"end":31709.53,"text":"議員委員不好意思因為你舉手比較慢"},{"start":31709.53,"end":31711.53,"text":"所以我要先給陳佩玉委員"},{"start":31711.53,"end":31713.53,"text":"因為她現在就是"},{"start":31713.53,"end":31715.53,"text":"重新發言計算"},{"start":31715.53,"end":31717.53,"text":"那陳佩玉委員在發言之前"},{"start":31717.53,"end":31719.53,"text":"我就還是要拜託我們不要打斷她"},{"start":31719.53,"end":31721.53,"text":"講話的這個過程"},{"start":31721.53,"end":31723.53,"text":"因為她也答應我們不會打斷我們"},{"start":31723.53,"end":31725.53,"text":"那如果你打斷我們的話"},{"start":31725.53,"end":31727.53,"text":"那可能我就沒辦法照醫師程序繼續主持"},{"start":31727.53,"end":31729.53,"text":"那我可能就要先給其他的委員"},{"start":31729.53,"end":31731.53,"text":"來做一個發言"},{"start":31731.53,"end":31733.53,"text":"那也請陳佩玉委員能夠體諒"},{"start":31733.53,"end":31735.53,"text":"因為處理這個醫師程序的時候"},{"start":31735.53,"end":31737.53,"text":"我想大家都還是希望盡可能的公正"},{"start":31737.53,"end":31739.53,"text":"那因為你剛剛有"},{"start":31739.53,"end":31741.53,"text":"稍微打斷到我我覺得這樣子是不對的"},{"start":31741.53,"end":31743.53,"text":"再次提醒你"},{"start":31743.53,"end":31745.53,"text":"那以上這個我們陳佩玉委員請發言"},{"start":31748.09,"end":31750.09,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":31752.8,"end":31754.8,"text":"我先說一下"},{"start":31754.8,"end":31756.8,"text":"所以從現在開始只要是羅廷瑋主席"},{"start":31756.8,"end":31758.8,"text":"所主持的任何會議"},{"start":31758.8,"end":31760.8,"text":"我們就會有發言次數的限制嗎"},{"start":31760.8,"end":31762.8,"text":"或者是有發言時間的限制嗎"},{"start":31762.8,"end":31764.8,"text":"我要先請主席單位一併回應"},{"start":31764.8,"end":31766.8,"text":"那回到第五條這件事情之前"},{"start":31766.8,"end":31768.8,"text":"我想要針對剛剛"},{"start":31768.8,"end":31770.8,"text":"沒辦法發言的部分"},{"start":31770.8,"end":31772.8,"text":"我要講"},{"start":31772.8,"end":31774.8,"text":"之前羅廷瑋委員其實已經騙過"},{"start":31774.8,"end":31776.8,"text":"吳立華委員兩次了"},{"start":31776.8,"end":31778.8,"text":"所以吳立華委員就給了兩天"},{"start":31778.8,"end":31780.8,"text":"因為你說"},{"start":31780.8,"end":31782.8,"text":"拿去開全院委員會"},{"start":31782.8,"end":31784.8,"text":"你覺得你的權益受損"},{"start":31784.8,"end":31786.8,"text":"所以你請吳立華給你兩天"},{"start":31786.8,"end":31788.8,"text":"吳委員非常善良"},{"start":31788.8,"end":31790.8,"text":"非常好心給了你兩天"},{"start":31790.8,"end":31792.8,"text":"可是當時也沒有看到名牌預算"},{"start":31792.8,"end":31794.8,"text":"所以我要公開的說"},{"start":31794.8,"end":31796.8,"text":"吳立華委員會有他自己的排案"},{"start":31796.8,"end":31798.8,"text":"會有他自己的邏輯"},{"start":31798.8,"end":31800.8,"text":"既然各自擔任章委就有自己的分工"},{"start":31800.8,"end":31802.8,"text":"實在是沒有必要公開"},{"start":31802.8,"end":31804.8,"text":"討拍要吳立華委員還要讓時間"},{"start":31804.8,"end":31806.8,"text":"給你這是極其的荒謬"},{"start":31806.8,"end":31808.8,"text":"如果你真的覺得你很急"},{"start":31808.8,"end":31810.8,"text":"不夠了"},{"start":31810.8,"end":31812.8,"text":"那不就落實了我剛剛所說的嗎"},{"start":31812.8,"end":31814.8,"text":"你其實沒有審慎的"},{"start":31814.8,"end":31816.8,"text":"在評估原來"},{"start":31816.8,"end":31818.8,"text":"營養午餐需要花這麼多時間討論"},{"start":31818.8,"end":31820.8,"text":"所以你就決定用送出去"},{"start":31820.8,"end":31822.8,"text":"這個方法"},{"start":31822.8,"end":31824.8,"text":"最後落得去所謂的院長協商"},{"start":31824.8,"end":31826.8,"text":"我真的覺得不是最好的方法"},{"start":31826.8,"end":31828.8,"text":"再來我要說"},{"start":31828.8,"end":31830.8,"text":"之所以沒有院板其實當時"},{"start":31830.8,"end":31832.8,"text":"教育部跟國教署早在非常非常"},{"start":31832.8,"end":31834.8,"text":"早之前就已經說明了他們"},{"start":31834.8,"end":31836.8,"text":"持續在跟地方政府開會"},{"start":31836.8,"end":31838.8,"text":"我在三年前進到立法院"},{"start":31838.8,"end":31840.8,"text":"前面幾次質詢我就已經談到"},{"start":31840.8,"end":31842.8,"text":"關於營養午餐當時"},{"start":31842.8,"end":31844.8,"text":"我也不敢貿然的要求專法"},{"start":31844.8,"end":31846.8,"text":"主要的原因我們不是不知道"},{"start":31846.8,"end":31848.8,"text":"專法有其必要跟有其重要性"},{"start":31848.8,"end":31850.8,"text":"但是我想舉一個非常簡單的例子"},{"start":31850.8,"end":31852.8,"text":"以我自己所在的社區"},{"start":31852.8,"end":31854.8,"text":"一條路上"},{"start":31856.15,"end":31858.15,"text":"無所學校可能就有五種收費方法"},{"start":31858.15,"end":31860.15,"text":"五種公餐模式"},{"start":31860.15,"end":31862.15,"text":"那不過就是一個台北市的一條路上"},{"start":31862.15,"end":31864.15,"text":"而已"},{"start":31864.15,"end":31866.15,"text":"而光是台北市一條路上的這五所學校"},{"start":31866.15,"end":31868.15,"text":"就有不同的樣態"},{"start":31868.15,"end":31870.15,"text":"更不要說整個台北市"},{"start":31870.15,"end":31872.15,"text":"更不要說整個台灣22個縣市"},{"start":31872.15,"end":31874.15,"text":"所以我會說當時我們辦公室"},{"start":31874.15,"end":31876.15,"text":"不斷的在這三年之間"},{"start":31876.15,"end":31878.15,"text":"跟教育部溝通"},{"start":31878.15,"end":31880.15,"text":"從國產食材從食材登入"},{"start":31880.15,"end":31882.15,"text":"到飲食教育到食農教育"},{"start":31882.15,"end":31884.15,"text":"到營養師的比例"},{"start":31884.15,"end":31886.15,"text":"到出宮怎麼算"},{"start":31886.15,"end":31888.15,"text":"然後到團善業者之間的關係"},{"start":31888.15,"end":31890.15,"text":"或者是公辦公營民辦民營"},{"start":31890.15,"end":31892.15,"text":"等等的或者不同學校的樣態"},{"start":31892.15,"end":31894.15,"text":"我隨便就可以舉出十個問題"},{"start":31894.15,"end":31896.15,"text":"我認為是教育部要持續跟地方政府"},{"start":31896.15,"end":31898.15,"text":"溝通收集意見的"},{"start":31898.15,"end":31900.15,"text":"在意見收集非常充分之後"},{"start":31900.15,"end":31902.15,"text":"我認為我們才有資格"},{"start":31902.15,"end":31904.15,"text":"做一個負責任的立法委員"},{"start":31904.15,"end":31906.15,"text":"而不是把所有你以為你所想要"},{"start":31906.15,"end":31908.15,"text":"都是對的全部丟包給"},{"start":31908.15,"end":31910.15,"text":"國教署或是丟包給地方政府"},{"start":31910.15,"end":31912.15,"text":"所以我要說他們從來"},{"start":31912.15,"end":31914.15,"text":"沒有像你所說的"},{"start":31914.15,"end":31916.15,"text":"不在營養午餐這個議題上努力"},{"start":31916.15,"end":31918.15,"text":"我對面的科長"},{"start":31918.15,"end":31920.15,"text":"我就不要講他的名字"},{"start":31920.15,"end":31922.15,"text":"他非常的認真踏實"},{"start":31922.63,"end":31924.63,"text":"接下這份工作以來"},{"start":31924.63,"end":31926.63,"text":"他對於營養午餐在第一線"},{"start":31926.63,"end":31928.63,"text":"不論是跟團善業者"},{"start":31928.63,"end":31930.63,"text":"不論是跟家長團體"},{"start":31930.63,"end":31932.63,"text":"不論是跟教師團體跟地方政府的溝通"},{"start":31932.63,"end":31934.63,"text":"花掉他非常非常多的力氣"},{"start":31934.63,"end":31936.63,"text":"但是他沒有放棄"},{"start":31936.63,"end":31938.63,"text":"他今天依然坐在我們教文委員會"},{"start":31938.63,"end":31940.63,"text":"聽著每一個委員的發言"},{"start":31940.63,"end":31942.63,"text":"看著每一個委員的提案"},{"start":31942.63,"end":31944.63,"text":"這就是我們教育部同仁最辛苦的地方"},{"start":31944.63,"end":31946.63,"text":"因為教育的失誤他試射中央跟地方的分工"},{"start":31946.63,"end":31948.63,"text":"所以講了這麼多"},{"start":31948.63,"end":31950.63,"text":"而且我每一次都要換不同的說法"},{"start":31950.63,"end":31952.63,"text":"就是因為我想要用"},{"start":31952.63,"end":31954.63,"text":"我充滿了誠意跟拜託的心情"},{"start":31954.63,"end":31956.63,"text":"想要請求主席"},{"start":31956.63,"end":31958.63,"text":"我要再次的說"},{"start":31958.63,"end":31960.63,"text":"雖然你剛剛已經宣告了"},{"start":31960.63,"end":31962.63,"text":"但是主席回頭不晚"},{"start":31962.63,"end":31964.63,"text":"沒有很難踩下煞車"},{"start":31964.63,"end":31966.63,"text":"等一下從第五條開始"},{"start":31966.63,"end":31968.63,"text":"我真的建議只要沒有共識"},{"start":31968.63,"end":31970.63,"text":"只要還沒有蒐集好地方政府的意見"},{"start":31970.63,"end":31972.63,"text":"我真的認為"},{"start":31972.63,"end":31974.63,"text":"我們不是不審"},{"start":31974.63,"end":31976.63,"text":"而是留在委員會"},{"start":31976.63,"end":31978.63,"text":"整部法案回過頭來"},{"start":31978.63,"end":31980.63,"text":"再逐一討論"},{"start":31980.63,"end":31982.63,"text":"光是剛剛"},{"start":31982.63,"end":31984.63,"text":"到底要不要供晚餐這件事情"},{"start":31984.63,"end":31986.63,"text":"其實你也發現了"},{"start":31986.88,"end":31988.88,"text":"要不是我們再給署長一次說明的機會"},{"start":31990.08,"end":31992.08,"text":"讓蔡村丑委員得以"},{"start":31992.08,"end":31994.08,"text":"反轉過來說好"},{"start":31994.08,"end":31996.08,"text":"他可以接受教育部的說法"},{"start":31996.14,"end":31998.14,"text":"我不知道到時候我們原來的版本"},{"start":31998.14,"end":32000.14,"text":"如果送進委員會會發生什麼事情"},{"start":32000.14,"end":32002.14,"text":"這就是我剛剛說的"},{"start":32002.14,"end":32004.14,"text":"為什麼留在委員會裡面"},{"start":32004.14,"end":32006.14,"text":"讓委員會中心主義"},{"start":32006.14,"end":32008.14,"text":"發揮他的功能"},{"start":32008.14,"end":32010.14,"text":"一直是民進黨團不管在哪一個委員會"},{"start":32010.14,"end":32012.14,"text":"在哪一個會期在哪一個法案"},{"start":32012.14,"end":32014.14,"text":"甚至是預算案上我們所積極"},{"start":32014.14,"end":32016.14,"text":"主張的如果今天委員會"},{"start":32016.14,"end":32018.14,"text":"淪為過水送送送"},{"start":32018.14,"end":32020.14,"text":"協商協商協商送送送"},{"start":32020.14,"end":32022.14,"text":"協商協商協商那我們今天真的不需要坐在這裡"},{"start":32022.14,"end":32024.14,"text":"而且主席請你放眼看去"},{"start":32024.14,"end":32026.14,"text":"今天有多少教育部的同仁"},{"start":32028,"end":32030,"text":"陪同大家出席在這裡"},{"start":32030.35,"end":32032.35,"text":"我相信他們想要聽到的是真的實質的討論"},{"start":32032.35,"end":32034.35,"text":"然後發現了很大的bug"},{"start":32034.35,"end":32036.35,"text":"再拜託國教署回去跟地方政府討論"},{"start":32036.35,"end":32038.35,"text":"地方政府再把意見送回來"},{"start":32038.35,"end":32040.35,"text":"我們可以有非常非常多時間討論"},{"start":32040.35,"end":32042.35,"text":"所以"},{"start":32041.81,"end":32043.81,"text":"針對第五條我當然有我的看法"},{"start":32043.81,"end":32045.81,"text":"如果時間允許我當然願意談"},{"start":32045.81,"end":32047.81,"text":"但我更想談的是"},{"start":32047.81,"end":32049.81,"text":"拜託主席我再次拜託"},{"start":32049.81,"end":32051.81,"text":"在謝龍介委員"},{"start":32051.81,"end":32053.81,"text":"柯志恩委員葉元植委員葛如君委員"},{"start":32053.81,"end":32055.81,"text":"羅志強委員都沒有出席"},{"start":32055.81,"end":32057.81,"text":"今天這個下午"},{"start":32058.12,"end":32060.12,"text":"我真的不認為"},{"start":32060.12,"end":32062.12,"text":"我們就只是說大家沒有共識"},{"start":32062.12,"end":32064.12,"text":"送出去協商"},{"start":32064.12,"end":32066.12,"text":"這是一個好的做法不這是一個最不好的做法"},{"start":32066.12,"end":32068.12,"text":"我認為也罔顧了今天"},{"start":32068.12,"end":32070.12,"text":"沒有出席的這些國民黨委員的意見"},{"start":32070.12,"end":32072.12,"text":"非常可惜搞不好他們跟我是一樣"},{"start":32072.12,"end":32074.12,"text":"有共識的他們搞不好也認為"},{"start":32074.12,"end":32076.12,"text":"留在委員會裡面好好的整本談完之後"},{"start":32076.12,"end":32078.12,"text":"再review一遍才是更好的做法"},{"start":32078.12,"end":32080.12,"text":"以上謝謝主席"},{"start":32080.01,"end":32082.01,"text":"謝謝你真的感謝你還剩一分鐘"},{"start":32082.01,"end":32084.01,"text":"可以讓我處理事情喔"},{"start":32084.01,"end":32086.01,"text":"先回應一下待會讓你發言喔不好意思"},{"start":32086.01,"end":32088.01,"text":"那我們沒有次數的限制喔一定讓你"},{"start":32088.01,"end":32090.01,"text":"暢所欲言但是剛剛是因為"},{"start":32090.01,"end":32092.01,"text":"你有打斷別人的程序發言喔"},{"start":32092.01,"end":32094.01,"text":"不是你有打斷我的發言喔"},{"start":32094.01,"end":32096.01,"text":"所以我有跟你講解所以我請蔡眷佐委員"},{"start":32096.01,"end":32098.01,"text":"先發言並不是不讓你發言"},{"start":32098.01,"end":32100.01,"text":"但我們在處理的剛剛"},{"start":32100.01,"end":32102.01,"text":"這個第四條"},{"start":32102.01,"end":32104.01,"text":"也不是大家有異議"},{"start":32104.01,"end":32106.01,"text":"而是大家都有同意"},{"start":32106.01,"end":32108.01,"text":"比如說剛剛有好像民進黨的委員"},{"start":32108.01,"end":32110.01,"text":"說要照教育部的文字"},{"start":32110.01,"end":32112.01,"text":"那所以國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":32112.01,"end":32114.01,"text":"也都同意的所以剛剛是一致認同"},{"start":32114.01,"end":32116.01,"text":"就以教育部的文字來處理"},{"start":32116.01,"end":32118.01,"text":"所以就直接照"},{"start":32118.01,"end":32120.01,"text":"教育部的修正通過"},{"start":32120.01,"end":32122.01,"text":"這跟您以上報告一下"},{"start":32122.01,"end":32124.01,"text":"並沒有說一意孤行喔"},{"start":32124.01,"end":32126.01,"text":"這是有共識的情況去處理這件事情"},{"start":32126.01,"end":32128.01,"text":"那不好意思我現在先處理"},{"start":32131.39,"end":32133.39,"text":"呃...會議時間"},{"start":32135.23,"end":32137.23,"text":"下午會議時間"},{"start":32137.23,"end":32139.23,"text":"我們繼續進行"},{"start":32139.23,"end":32143.23,"text":"學校午餐及飲食教育條例的草案"},{"start":32143.66,"end":32145.66,"text":"我們到處理完畢為止"},{"start":32145.66,"end":32147.66,"text":"反對"},{"start":32147.66,"end":32149.66,"text":"好反對請點人數"},{"start":32150.99,"end":32152.99,"text":"柯志恩沒來啊"},{"start":32152.99,"end":32154.99,"text":"葉元之沒來啊"},{"start":32154.99,"end":32156.99,"text":"羅志強葛如君憲龍界在哪裡"},{"start":32156.99,"end":32158.99,"text":"站出來啊"},{"start":32158.48,"end":32160.48,"text":"反對"},{"start":32160.48,"end":32162.48,"text":"然後等一下羅廷瑋就會去剪影片說"},{"start":32162.48,"end":32164.48,"text":"民進黨反對修"},{"start":32164.48,"end":32166.48,"text":"民進黨不支持學生的食安"},{"start":32166.48,"end":32168.48,"text":"民進黨不顧小孩"},{"start":32168.48,"end":32170.48,"text":"抗議抗議抗議"},{"start":32170.48,"end":32172.48,"text":"我們希望能夠"},{"start":32172.48,"end":32174.48,"text":"處理到完畢為止為止"},{"start":32174.48,"end":32176.48,"text":"繼續加油"},{"start":32176.48,"end":32178.48,"text":"來為大家審查"},{"start":32178.48,"end":32180.48,"text":"那現在呢"},{"start":32180.48,"end":32182.48,"text":"主席請處理我們的反對"},{"start":32182.48,"end":32184.48,"text":"主席請處理我們的反對"},{"start":32184.48,"end":32186.48,"text":"我要處理你的反對"},{"start":32186.48,"end":32188.48,"text":"所以我請點人數要投票了嘛"},{"start":32188.48,"end":32190.48,"text":"主席真的很沒有人性耶"},{"start":32190.48,"end":32192.48,"text":"我只要五點多從台南坐車"},{"start":32193.97,"end":32195.97,"text":"七點多在這邊簽到"},{"start":32195.97,"end":32197.97,"text":"來看大家都陪同到現在"},{"start":32197.97,"end":32199.97,"text":"搞整天你還要搞到晚上嗎"},{"start":32201.43,"end":32203.43,"text":"對不起我早上有沒有比你早"},{"start":32203.43,"end":32205.43,"text":"重點是我們不敢陪同"},{"start":32205.43,"end":32207.43,"text":"我第二名表"},{"start":32207.43,"end":32209.43,"text":"第二名講話的你第幾個"},{"start":32209.43,"end":32211.43,"text":"我台南來的"},{"start":32210.47,"end":32212.47,"text":"不管不管你自己要講時間"},{"start":32212.47,"end":32214.47,"text":"誰比較早我比你還早你"},{"start":32214.47,"end":32216.47,"text":"怎麼不說主席那我抗議"},{"start":32216.47,"end":32218.47,"text":"我沒人的抗議所以"},{"start":32218.47,"end":32220.47,"text":"現在要來表決了嘛我"},{"start":32220.47,"end":32222.47,"text":"沒有說一定要到十二點啊"},{"start":32222.47,"end":32224.47,"text":"我現在是不是問你們意見"},{"start":32224.47,"end":32226.47,"text":"這個東西可以好好的"},{"start":32226.47,"end":32228.47,"text":"責其在審"},{"start":32228.47,"end":32230.47,"text":"那為什麼一定要在現在"},{"start":32230.47,"end":32232.47,"text":"我覺得你處理"},{"start":32232.47,"end":32234.47,"text":"還要延後"},{"start":32234.47,"end":32236.47,"text":"這個開會我也覺得很納悶"},{"start":32236.47,"end":32238.47,"text":"你這種處理方式"},{"start":32238.47,"end":32240.47,"text":"你不是說"},{"start":32241.84,"end":32243.84,"text":"你覺得沒有人性"},{"start":32243.84,"end":32245.84,"text":"但我希望這個趕快能夠推進"},{"start":32245.84,"end":32247.84,"text":"沒有人性"},{"start":32247.84,"end":32249.84,"text":"謝謝你啦這是你的建議啦"},{"start":32249.84,"end":32251.84,"text":"你覺得工作太累那您可以去休息"},{"start":32251.84,"end":32253.84,"text":"但是您不可以說想要繼續做的人"},{"start":32253.84,"end":32255.84,"text":"說沒有人性"},{"start":32255.84,"end":32257.84,"text":"我不是你們國民黨的其他的同仁"},{"start":32257.84,"end":32259.84,"text":"就都不來"},{"start":32261.21,"end":32263.21,"text":"好會議時間我們"},{"start":32263.42,"end":32265.42,"text":"主席我要先提醒你一件事喔"},{"start":32265.42,"end":32267.42,"text":"你做一件很大的錯誤喔"},{"start":32267.42,"end":32269.42,"text":"因為已經超過五點半你才要處理中意"},{"start":32269.42,"end":32271.42,"text":"照理說你剛剛會議"},{"start":32271.42,"end":32273.42,"text":"我剛才就被你們插花"},{"start":32273.42,"end":32275.42,"text":"我們來看一下會議記錄"},{"start":32275.42,"end":32277.42,"text":"裡面是哪五點半"},{"start":32277.42,"end":32279.42,"text":"照理說你只要過了五點半"},{"start":32279.42,"end":32281.42,"text":"你就不能處理動議"},{"start":32281.42,"end":32283.42,"text":"在立院執行十法裡面"},{"start":32283.42,"end":32285.42,"text":"主席敲過了敲過了"},{"start":32285.42,"end":32287.42,"text":"你根本就在犯法"},{"start":32287.42,"end":32289.42,"text":"好我知道最後讓我講幾句話嘛"},{"start":32290.19,"end":32292.19,"text":"29分的時候要處理結果被你們拖到"},{"start":32292.19,"end":32294.19,"text":"所以就沒辦法處理喔"},{"start":32294.19,"end":32296.19,"text":"這個我"},{"start":32296.19,"end":32298.19,"text":"我也要抗議啦你國民黨都沒來"},{"start":32298.19,"end":32300.19,"text":"柯志恩有來"},{"start":32300.19,"end":32302.19,"text":"李源直有來葛如君有來謝榮介"},{"start":32302.19,"end":32304.19,"text":"羅志祥有來然後我們這些民進黨的"},{"start":32304.19,"end":32306.19,"text":"陪你在這邊陪羅高子讀書啦"},{"start":32306.19,"end":32308.19,"text":"謝謝啦"},{"start":32308.19,"end":32310.19,"text":"那我也不能處理動議了啦"},{"start":32310.19,"end":32312.19,"text":"那不好意思因為超過了"},{"start":32312.19,"end":32314.19,"text":"30分"},{"start":32314.19,"end":32316.19,"text":"那很可惜剛剛29分"},{"start":32316.19,"end":32318.19,"text":"我要經典人數"},{"start":32318.19,"end":32320.19,"text":"要準備投票的時候"},{"start":32320.19,"end":32322.19,"text":"那透過委員的發言"},{"start":32322.19,"end":32324.19,"text":"那超過這個時間我們只好尊重"},{"start":32324.19,"end":32326.19,"text":"那今天我們就只好"},{"start":32326.19,"end":32328.19,"text":"擇期再審"},{"start":32329.14,"end":32331.14,"text":"審查結果免於重複宣讀"},{"start":32331.14,"end":32333.14,"text":"啊對不起對不起"},{"start":32333.14,"end":32335.14,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉"},{"start":32335.14,"end":32337.14,"text":"學校午餐及飲食"},{"start":32337.14,"end":32339.14,"text":"教育條例相關草案定期"},{"start":32339.14,"end":32341.14,"text":"繼續審查"},{"start":32341.14,"end":32343.14,"text":"報告委員會今日議程處理完畢現在散會"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":3900.1,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"vYgZvpIBQrysJCw9TXKiPAZOhjwUkU87R4SnPJz7r70OxWG9GyA4PU+ihTyhjaQ9Tc3XvBU23DwsBsa9l06cveEsqrtzNCg9kvmoPVRd/7ydGxM8y97oPDvz4zsPfoo8sGpzPfYYLz7o8Ne7hFWYO3+DmL1NzbC8R9V7PTLFfLzUWE+8an0rPcRkEz6Qxbw7D99YPNNf7buzGgG9tcsZvdbQYzyopl69aaCLPXoxkz0XzI09n84+vDDaqb0ho747k3rivCOT4Tuyup69n5uKPf74uDxXSiA+dwO4vIRdDr0SaiA9OS1PvepHVrxHv6a9y9aIvHVxub19GgS9QwflvJZ7CzwTg8098hPKu4m7kj3Ffvs7FbgtvH05jrx/Mhe92dXlPLhGArvKPKG9ZCltvYWjYbwb+VG9qTIePdFQi71ghDq9/8ahPdeEkT34sS07x83RvZYfk7u3Ap2944c5vUlK0zrTs/C94lMQPRy/EL3LMR+9DTD5PFtTpDz9dYO9noQePBKZCr3yOzI95caTvTcfVj1/AKA96B0kPcYljjw5M0y9GOTGPZ0JY7ys5dM9SpMqPWCqYD3tAZu9jX+xPCO5ozvOuzE9MZnuvLWupLt4FUM8kNvSvBgP4bwGJaE9eSt3PVpfPL1E8mg8fAo2PYEp8b3O9/09Laq/PYchlLxDB4S9xdOqvd+NKj3AXhO+o0NYPXoTZb2rvuU9rCqFvdjBrb3Vryi9lZKkPJkqh71Wz5g8kjUEvesLej2SWI87zr2oPNTgsDwjkZO9vE87vZUCV72TBUO8hq3yvCP8zLuVBVY8+/9gPPbsVbuYqq47f7SePMO/lb218eW802TfPRzQLb0zLKi96W5jPOAtuT1o4KK9rY0oOmzwwL0gvRC9QzBtPESAAr21bIa9VTn1PO/YpL2vNHc7/k26PVfmmbxo+7I98wucvYCMYj2AkzQ9QcMevu0lUL3D5XO95oORO/MeFj5SnJu8aEOMu0BbvTvyBI681LWBPLoSQD2akyw9RueYO1B8eL05gJQ9dpH5PH1xhT3JkQ896eTgPRSeyjyJ5sy8VYoHvrJTDr1elXM9YthVOv/YmTuOga485i3iPPr8Lj28dIk9qWHbPOQquj2L/Ps86wERvvmMO7y8fUg9QjVdPLiDRT0C+K+8tCPgvJBlkbthrs48ThO4vcrf/b2nd0q9ACs2vcs3mb3zgUe9SgFWPbFaBr6btbA9ah0Hvvs3Hz0LQ5i7L/GaPGFTIzwrnks92jc1vZz5Nj3oYx6+rneIvbOErLy7Zcq9Z5xvvXrkG72e8Su9CV0CvU6oMb3LUXS9SjbPvaSJYzzjpz6+tzJCPd05kD2WsUk+mKzcPQ=="},{"total_seconds":3589.5,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"XRCCveQN+LwpP0M9+TiSPZBGmzsfr6K9n5C+OmPmerskjVg9AO3mvJUdiD3u17m81VeLvAV5Zj1pIse6pr6zvZ3kLrxP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