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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":307.756,"end":308.626,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":358.131,"end":382.488,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨洁"},{"start":474.258,"end":479.292,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":544.5,"end":560.35,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":638.192,"end":638.294,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1254.673,"end":1254.754,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1325.346,"end":1325.427,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1391.455,"end":1391.537,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1494.401,"end":1494.583,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1558.463,"end":1559.255,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1844.094,"end":1849.932,"text":"從會議開始 請主席報告出席人數報告聯席會 出席委員36人 已足法定人數"},{"start":1851.172,"end":1879.326,"text":"好 我們現在開會進行討論事項 請宣讀討論事項 編案審查一 行政環境審議 國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案二 本院委員林儲英等17人拟據國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案三 本院台灣民進黨黨團拟據強化國防自主及無人機產業發展條例草案四 本院國民黨黨團拟據國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1881.343,"end":1896.796,"text":"好 那本命审人排定询答行政院国民党党团民众党党团及委员林祖英等您所提四个版本那首先请提案委员说明提案要旨首先第一位请林祖英委员"},{"start":1907.604,"end":1911.98,"text":"谢谢主席各位立法院的同仁还有部会长官大家好本期今天针对"},{"start":1913.208,"end":1936.229,"text":"我所提出的國防自主無人載具採購特別條例的草案來進行說明我們都知道會提這樣的一個草案主要就是因為先前行政院8年1.25兆的國防特別預算遭到在野黨聯手刪除了4700億造成了建軍規劃與戰力準備的缺口為了補足國軍迫切需要的戰力所以行政院也針對了無人載具令"},{"start":1938.491,"end":1954.226,"text":"提出了所謂的特別條例未來也會提出特別預算那麼本席所提出來的是與行政院的版本經過溝通之後高度相似的因為我們希望透過實際的提案明確的表達對行政院政策的支持對無人載具採購以及"},{"start":1957.249,"end":1982.417,"text":"戰力的建制能夠加速的推動而本席跟在野黨最大不同有兩個地方第一個就是主管機關本席來自於國防外交委員會首先這個條例的提出是為了解決國軍建軍跟戰力需求無人載具的採購的產業方向也應該是依循國防部的建軍路徑跟作戰的需求由國防部來決定"},{"start":1983.837,"end":1987.962,"text":"哪些戰備的項目規格數量跟期程再透過長期穩定的採購帶動國內業者技術提升品質跟質量以及發展的量能所以換句話說國際需要什麼國防部最清楚如果按照現在在野黨的版本由經濟部來規劃"},{"start":2003.82,"end":2023.958,"text":"那不就變成是經濟部變成我們未來國防戰力的頂頭上司嗎第二個最大的不同當然就是有關於預算我們都知道立法委員是不能提出預算案的所以在這個條例當中我們只框定一個天花板我們用特別預算的方式給行政院給國防部以及未來要發展無人產業無人載具產業的經濟部一個大方向"},{"start":2028.982,"end":2043.136,"text":"所以本席所提出來的是希望以國防需求引導產業發展讓產業量能真正轉化為國防戰力這就是本席提出這個條例最重要的核心謝謝大家也懇請朝野支持好我們謝謝林柱英委員接下來我們要請這個國民黨黨團林佩祥委員代表"},{"start":2060.694,"end":2079.602,"text":"好 主席 各位委員本人代表國民黨黨團發言本席在此強調國民黨黨團從來沒有反對發展無人機我們支持的是國防升級 不是預算失控支持的是產業扎根 不是廠商種樂透支持的是戰力到位 不是前線到位"},{"start":2080.382,"end":2103.599,"text":"立法的最終目的是在於扶植國內無人機產業的發展而非把特別預算常態化如果結果跟放煙火一樣看似沒好一採購之後就沒下文那麼對產業根本沒有所謂的實質幫助只怕國庫再次淪為特定廠商們的提款機因此本黨團所提國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案"},{"start":2105.62,"end":2118.306,"text":"主要重點在於一跨部會合作扶植產業發展落實在地採購打造經濟韌性跟國防自主性二杜絕軍購特別預算規避監督改採年度預算2400億加落日條款6年以維持財政紀律"},{"start":2125.149,"end":2144.82,"text":"三 定期提出年度績效評估與執行報告每年提出出無人載具整體戰力及產業競爭力評估報告每三年一次單一採購一億元以上書面報告決標之後第四 國發基金跟民間資金得共同投資確保資金不斷鏈"},{"start":2146.781,"end":2166.028,"text":"第五針對供應鏈違規重大破壞及資安犯罪訂定相應的行政及行政及行事責任確保政策落地以及回顧國家安全此外針對法務部報告第三的第四頁指出本黨團提案第21條第一款與"},{"start":2167.168,"end":2186.565,"text":"草案內涵容有一億部分另一補充說明本黨團提案之二十一條第一款關於業者違規使用未認證之高風險地區零組件而獲獎勵措施者除撤銷其資格之外並追繳已領取的獎勵款項並足以罰還"},{"start":2191.088,"end":2208.398,"text":"為所涉相關調製物質將於之後逐條審查時提出修正動議方式予以釐清以上國民黨黨團好謝謝林沛翔委員接下來我請台灣民眾黨團王安祥來做提案說明"},{"start":2216.563,"end":2239.809,"text":"主席好 大家早我代表台灣民主黨來進行我們提出的條例草案的進行說明我們這個草案基本上有幾個重點第一個就是說我想大家對於無人機產業的發展都非常重視所以為了要創造市場 接軌國際是非常重要的"},{"start":2240.589,"end":2267.65,"text":"所以在我們的這個條例裡面特別為了促進產業技術更新我們提出了所謂的Trust可信任的這個供應鏈跟國際接軌那Trust這個稱基本上也是來自於美國相關的行政命令那另外就是在我們這個條例上我們把這個無人機的發展分為商規跟軍規不同的發展的體系所以我們的主管機關是涵蓋了經濟部"},{"start":2270.532,"end":2290.043,"text":"跟國防產業的國防部兩個主管機關來負責同時為了對於發展上有好的建議跟管考所以在我們的條例裡面我們也特別設了所謂的無人機產業發展戰略特別委員會希望藉由這個委員會"},{"start":2291.644,"end":2313.46,"text":"來進行這個政策的發展跟我們整個進度的管考那第三個部分呢我想對於無人機的發展我們希望有一個中整全面而且透明的規劃所以我們希望因應無人機產業非常迅速迭代的一個發展我們在這個條例裡面設計了每四年需要提出的所謂的無人機產業發展的綱領以因應現在科技的發展"},{"start":2317.847,"end":2334.878,"text":"那最後一個我們基本上我們其實在無人機的這個產業上最近在黨團這邊也收到非常多的陳情所以在這個我們的條例草案裡面我們也設計了所謂的剛剛說的Trustee的一個認證的制度而且基本上我們也規範現階段因應"},{"start":2337.339,"end":2364.583,"text":"這個無人機產業跌到非常迅速的狀況我們希望呢 採購 國防採購呢是以低成本高性能為優先那另外呢 我們對於以不正方法取得國家的補助的廠商呢我們也有 定有相當明確的一個罰則所以呢 我想台灣民進黨這個條例的草案呢基本上兼顧了國防自主也兼顧了產業的發展那希望啊 獲得大家的支持 以上"},{"start":2367.23,"end":2395.342,"text":"好 謝謝黃翔委員那接下來的話介紹一下這個出席的機關首長首先經濟部政務次長何敬昌產發署副署長周宇新標檢局組長陳成章國家發展委員會產發處處長肖正榮行政院國際發展經營管理會副執命施明山國防部部長顧立雄"},{"start":2397.364,"end":2424.15,"text":"副總長執行官黃志偉軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝其賢中山科學研究院院長李世強速發部資安安全署主秘陳慧萍交安部行政司司長韓振華"},{"start":2426.823,"end":2450.131,"text":"民航局局長何淑萍行政院工工程委員會企劃處副處長陳仲佑國科會工程技術研究發展處副處長郭金財政部國務署副處長馬曉慧副會署專門委員吳秀琳行政院主計總署工藝專處專委陳濤偉法務部倡事廖彰憲"},{"start":2456.172,"end":2475.345,"text":"好那因為今天這個出席的部會報告書面很多那我想因為時間的關係我們今天部會報告就請三個主要部會經濟部國防部跟財政部那首先我們請這個經濟部這個何敬騰何次長報告時間四分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2485.967,"end":2513.068,"text":"主席各位委員大家好由經濟委員會外交及國防委員會及財政委員會召開聯席會議審查行政院林儲殷委員台灣民眾黨黨團及國民黨黨團所提國防自主無人載具相關條例草案經濟部呈邀列席報告進行指教無人載具成為建構不對稱作戰能力及提升防衛任性是關鍵因應"},{"start":2516.95,"end":2536.176,"text":"中共軍事威脅持續擴增行政院理據國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案規劃於115年至120年間以特別預算的方式編列新台幣2100億元逐年籌貨濱海艱增攻擊型無人機及小型自殺"},{"start":2537.506,"end":2566.31,"text":"無人艇提升國軍不對稱作戰能力並由國防部擔任主管機關本次審查會議各版本提案重點及本部的意見分別如下一 民主委員版本查案名稱與條文內容與行政版本大致相同那在本部的意見方面考量民主委員的版本與行政版本大致相同故建立支持行政版本第二"},{"start":2566.65,"end":2587.968,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團版本查案名稱為強化國防自主及無人機產業發展條例立法重點為充實國防自主能力協助本土業者利用產業垂直分工與聚落的優勢進入國際可信賴供應鏈和提升軍民通用技術和產業轉型發展"},{"start":2590.131,"end":2602.602,"text":"第二 本提案規定行政院應設置國家無人機產業發展戰略特別委員會經濟部應會同相關機關每四年提出產業發展綱領另一就飛航管理測試場域"},{"start":2606.886,"end":2626.628,"text":"等事項予以規範那本部的意見現在已經在114年核定無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫計畫期整為6年經費需求需442億元從市場技術環境法規四大面向分別提出策略"},{"start":2627.73,"end":2637.643,"text":"與措施亦規範有追蹤管考檢討精進之機制由行政院政府院長邀集各部會定期召開"},{"start":2639.455,"end":2659.002,"text":"專案會議統籌協調及推動無人載具產業發展各項工作考量本提案以納入上開統籌型計畫內推動並由行政院定期召開會議追蹤管考建立無需另立法規範第三國民黨黨團版本提案重點"},{"start":2660.578,"end":2682.531,"text":"草案名稱為國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例立法重點為強化台灣國防不對稱戰力落實國防自主與產業升級之雙向效益並建立符合民主供應鏈標準排除高風險供應鏈本提案訂定經費為每年400億元400億元6年總額為2400億元另預就無人載具"},{"start":2689.311,"end":2707.046,"text":"防衛體系分布 測試場域規劃 國廠化比例的目標等事項予以規範本部意見有關防衛體系分布原則 國內無人機相關業者已散佈在北中南各區各自形成完整的供應鏈體系 產業能量並會集中單一地區"},{"start":2712.472,"end":2730.953,"text":"第二有關訂定國產化比例部分因為無人機種類多元各型載具國產化比例各有不同且國產化條件上涉及技術與市場等不確定的因素以統一標準且明定比例的方式來立法有其執行難度"},{"start":2732.608,"end":2751.111,"text":"好 次長請直接念重點好不好那有關預算編列方式特別預算編列方式較能夠提供跨年度資源配置與執行的彈性且在一定年期內有穩定的經費來採購無人載具可強化國防自主能力"},{"start":2751.852,"end":2773.066,"text":"另外有關無人載具的產業發展事項已經納入統籌型計畫推動或相關的法規規範故建立無需另立法規來規範結與感謝各委員及各黨團對國防自主與無人機產業發展的一個支持那行政版本及臨時版本是因應國防自主無人載具採購及戰力"},{"start":2775.787,"end":2799.354,"text":"站立建制的急迫的需求採特別預算編列並由國安部依建軍需求來從頭推動對國防國內無人載具產業發展也具正面的效益卻有其必要性綜上 敬請各位委員支持行政版本以上報告 敬請各位委員指正好 謝謝次長接下來我們請這個國防部長報告時間4分鐘主席 各位委員"},{"start":2805.754,"end":2833.184,"text":"今天由我代表國防部來報告國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案借鑒今年的全球軍事衝突經驗低成本快速生產功能多元的無人載具可有效消耗敵軍兵力裝備同時大幅降低自身人員倉王充分展現不對稱作戰優勢成為左右戰局的重要手段我國為海島地形胡言瞎笑眾生短情大規模無人載具的戰場運用結合地理優勢條件通常"},{"start":2834.738,"end":2842.938,"text":"可以提升防衛戰各階段的作戰效能 創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造創造"},{"start":2846.209,"end":2870.343,"text":"就打造這個無人載具自主產製量能來提升國防人心的部分首先跟各位報告我們之所以要編列特別預算滿足軍事桌上的需求迫切性是因為我們要借特別預算規模穩定資源集中的特性來籌貨濱海健身型的無人機 濱海攻擊型的無人機及小型自殺無人艇等三型國防自主的無人載具同時採取大量償單的籌貨策略"},{"start":2871.523,"end":2896.191,"text":"刺激國內廠商投資相關軍用無人載具的產業鏈逐步擴大國內軍用無人載具的生產量以追求技術升級面對中共隨時可能的軍事犯罪行動國內的無人載具產業鏈必須具備暫時擴產的能量與安全人性首先國防部主管的國防自主無人載具採購特別項目已經藉由大量產商原則精算訓練戰備與戰後補充的多年級的採購數量需求"},{"start":2899.572,"end":2923.661,"text":"提供廠商穩定之軍用無人載具的訊號採購維持廠房設備與技術能力必要的水準規模穩定與資源集中的特別預算投資可以擴大國內產業鏈的佈局完整性完備零附件的國內生產全機體的國內組裝的非紅供應鏈打造一個安全韌性的軍事無人載具的生態系"},{"start":2924.781,"end":2930.528,"text":"那本次呢這個國防支部組無人載具所籌獲的武器裝備除了借經二無戰爭的實戰經驗也有連參針對防衛專各階段尋求進行長達兩年以上的深入研究並於我們國家共同評估之後確立整體的無人載具"},{"start":2940.298,"end":2966.472,"text":"系統的錯誤策略因此呢國防部應該是防衛作戰需求無人載具採購的主管機關由國防部提出採購特別預算執行獲得管理以推動最終戰力的形成可以使採購的項鍊符合作戰構想部署地區操作單位指揮架構通訊協定抽載需求以及暫時消耗補充計畫真正滿足國防部的防衛作戰需求那目前呢"},{"start":2968.073,"end":2982.591,"text":"國軍呢是這個國內無人機最大的潛在客戶且有未來的防衛作戰的龐大的需求唯有藉由這個政府國會產業界等三方面全策全力的多面向的管道整合建立完整在地研發以擴大"},{"start":2983.312,"end":3008.911,"text":"整體產業規模一律快速研發以大量生產各式無人載具有效提高防衛人性達成強化國軍聯合戰力以創造產業量能的雙重目標那最後懇請大院盡速通過國安部主管的國安部自主無人載具採購特別條例草案幫助國軍加速戰力轉型敬請各位委員鼎力支持 謝謝好 謝謝部長接下來我們請財政部副書長馬曉輝報告"},{"start":3015.282,"end":3016.442,"text":"3分鐘 好 謝謝主席還有各位委員 先進大家好那財政部報告那今天陳孟貴委員會召開聯席會議來賓案審查行政院還有大院林楚英委員還有台灣民眾黨黨團還有中國國民黨黨團分別領據國防自主人載具採購的相關的"},{"start":3043.93,"end":3058.057,"text":"法案的草案共識案那緊究涉及財政部的部分簡要說明第一行政院含情審議國防自主無人載具採購的特別草案"},{"start":3058.917,"end":3064.364,"text":"那依照行政院草這個版本的規定所需經費上限是2100億以特別預算方式來編列那每年的舉借債務的額度不受公共債法的一個年度流量的"},{"start":3074.455,"end":3097.566,"text":"限制 不過呢 就是施行期間就是本草案的施行期間它的舉債額度還是不得超過就是財政紀律法所規定的這個施行期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額和基數的15%所以施行期間還是有流量再限的限制"},{"start":3098.166,"end":3101.589,"text":"那總體的一個舉債未償債務餘額還是要依公共債務法第五條第一項的規定納入存量的債限來管控也就是不得超過前三年GDP的平均數40.6%"},{"start":3115.623,"end":3144.245,"text":"那如果行政院草案如今大院審議通過那本部將配合籌編稅入而且並以特別條例公共債務法還有財政紀律法等規定管控債務那第二大院林楚英委員還有台灣民眾黨及中國國民黨團分別的女巨版本以下就是分數本部的一個意見一就是林委員的"},{"start":3145.306,"end":3169.242,"text":"等17人所提的版本呢與院版大致相同所以本部沒有補充意見二大院台灣民眾黨團理據的這個版本呢因為這個版本有規定經濟部應依據產創條例及相關法令提供必要的租稅融資及投資協助支持我國製造無人機產業相關系統的出口"},{"start":3171.764,"end":3187.631,"text":"那查这个现行的所谓税法还有产创条例相关法规已经提供合宜的课税规定及租税优惠的措施那所以业者可以申请试用有助无人机产业的发展"},{"start":3188.995,"end":3204.666,"text":"第三,大院中國國民黨團拟據的這個草案呢依照這個草案的內容,那就是中央政府要尋年度預算就是不以特別條例的方式,是以年度預算來籌編那每年400億,連續編6年,總共2400億喔"},{"start":3209.79,"end":3225.103,"text":"那鉴于特别预算的特殊性及重大的必要性那就是国防有紧急的需要那为了避免一年编列一次如果遇到特殊经费需求"},{"start":3225.583,"end":3248.692,"text":"那要納編到下一年度恐怕會有還不積極補返因應大額需求的這個情形所以呢我們建議行政院以行政院草案來推動確保後續的一個計畫可以穩健的執行那以上說明敬請各位委員指教敬請會議支持行政院版本以上好謝謝"},{"start":3250.702,"end":3276.591,"text":"有关本次会议各部会所提之书面报告请委员自行参阅并刊登公报那我们合并询答委员质询前原例作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本联席会委员6分钟必要时得延长1分钟非本联席会委员4分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记那么首先请登记第一位陈廷飞委员发言"},{"start":3286.15,"end":3297.24,"text":"謝謝主席我請主計然後國防部因為我們時間有限還有經濟一起上好我們請主計國防部跟經濟部代表主計呢是陳薇謝謝"},{"start":3307.765,"end":3325.575,"text":"我想我先問主計啦 因為我覺得我已經擔任民意代表28年10年的議員省地方預算 18年的立委省中央預算我覺得在這個會期非常的奇怪"},{"start":3326.636,"end":3346.882,"text":"因為從過去給我的一些方向目標就是我們的民意機關省預算是不能增加預算也不能下指導期要求行政院你要怎麼編預算可是在這一次全部都亂來"},{"start":3348.936,"end":3375.499,"text":"我光看到我們這一次國民黨民眾黨的版本尤其國民黨的版本是直接要求編列每年400億連續6年這樣的一個版本而且用法律命令 命令行政院每年要編一筆固定金額這個基本上已經違反預算法還有財政紀律法"},{"start":3376.638,"end":3399.737,"text":"更不用說根本就以新式違憲了 抵觸憲法第59條 來主席我們通常重大的法案還有涉及重大金額這個可能行政跟立法都要事先溝通取得共識一定要取得共識嘛"},{"start":3400.638,"end":3426.945,"text":"立法院才能提出嘛如果沒有共識的話不可能立法院自己提出版本然後以所謂的固定預算法定預算要求行政院要吃下去吞下去對不對是這就已經違法違憲了好來我再問我們顧部長部長我看到國民黨的版本裡面"},{"start":3428.464,"end":3452.314,"text":"基本上還有民眾黨的版本我們要提出一個特別條例也就是它有重要性而且關鍵性這裡面光所謂的急需無人採購的明確規劃三行急需無人採據採購的明確規劃根本就沒有"},{"start":3456.144,"end":3465.443,"text":"那請問沒有明宣規劃怎麼叫一個必要性而且特殊性的一個特別條例草案來 部長"},{"start":3466.317,"end":3493.162,"text":"是 委員跟委員報告第一個就是說我們是特別條例那現在國民黨版跟民眾黨版它不是一個特別條例那特別條例的目的是為了編特別預算所以這個首先要說明的是他們這兩個條例呢著重的都是在於有關這個科技發展跟這個產業發展這個部分那跟我們的特別條例的性質顯然不同第二個是我們國防部"},{"start":3495.833,"end":3523.263,"text":"是這個如何符合我們作戰需求的這樣的無人載具的一個採購我想這是我們的一個才能夠知道的一個規劃那所以國防部委主管機關那我們提出一個明確的採購的標的那這個採購的標的是剛剛也報告了是經過兩年跟我們聯參自己本身還有包括跟美方共同的討論認為在台海的防衛作戰上沒有能夠發揮不對稱作戰優勢的一個"},{"start":3524.623,"end":3534.06,"text":"非常非常重要的一個採購的一個事項那我們主要提出特別預算的目的就是因為希望能夠這個預算能夠穩定然後運用這個預算的"},{"start":3540.059,"end":3566.587,"text":"採購然後也強調它的迭代創新那這樣子一方面可以滿足我們的作戰需求作戰能力的建構一方面我們能夠讓廠商願意去投資然後另外一方面呢在基於無人載具的迭代創新的原則我們逐年來採購那特別條例通過之後還是要提出這個特別預算的相關的具體的計畫那個時候會更詳細的跟各位說明"},{"start":3569.948,"end":3598.173,"text":"以上的這些所以部長你講到一個重點國防部今天會提出這個特別條例因為我們已經思考兩年它有重要性特別性而且也是符合我們現在作戰的方向可是這一次我們排定的很奇怪怎麼會把特別條例跟一般的條例擺在一起一般條例是民眾黨跟國民黨黨團所提出的"},{"start":3599.153,"end":3608.73,"text":"所以這兩個是完全不同的所以我們看到在國民黨也好民眾黨團的版本裡面並沒有提出任何更明確的一個採購計畫"},{"start":3612.608,"end":3637.488,"text":"他的重點在哪裡看不清楚他只有一個科技發展如果一個科技發展型的怎麼可以跟我們整個國防部所提出的採購特別條例草案擺在一起審呢這兩個是完全不同的所以我覺得今天我們在審這個特別條例的部分我覺得非常非常的奇怪而且是有點"},{"start":3641.291,"end":3663.825,"text":"亂無章法除了從在野黨所提出的條例裡面完全居然違反了預算法跟憲法然後我們今天所看到審議的部分又是把特別條例跟一般的發展條例擺在同樣審我不知道這怎麼審而且另外一個部分"},{"start":3665.444,"end":3679.931,"text":"在我們看到經濟部那個次長其實我們在經濟部我在經濟委員會那麼久的時間其實在我們整個產業發展無人機的產業發展我們早就在推了是"},{"start":3681.171,"end":3708.474,"text":"預算早就在編了而且其實我們把所有的聚落大家看到我們看到台中市有40家彰化縣有8家南投縣有6家苗栗縣有3家南部地方在台南市有25家這也是我們一直希望未來發展無人街的產業聚落我們已經都找好點了"},{"start":3709.855,"end":3734.192,"text":"我們店都找到了現在拿出這種產業條例是不是太慢了是不是太慢了而且嘉義縣就五家北部地方新北市五十二家台北市四十三家桃園市三十三家新竹市二十一家新竹縣十一家宜蘭縣三家嘉義是一家這些早就在進行了"},{"start":3739.482,"end":3745.626,"text":"那為什麼現在居然在野黨還在提這種所謂產業發展條例我們不是在罷工嗎?我們要倒退嗎?確實如委員所提的我們其實在北中南各地都有完整的無人機產業聚落"},{"start":3757.973,"end":3767.203,"text":"而且行政委推出一個無人機的一個產業發展統籌型計畫統合各部位來協助我們所有無人機產業的業者從這個我們的產業輔導從我們的這個評普還有許多的這些資安等等的一些規範我們來建立一個費用供應鏈"},{"start":3776.713,"end":3784.042,"text":"而且還提供國防自主方面的一個需求所以我想用這個國防的需求來支持產業的發展讓產業有長期的一個穩定的訂單來這個投入研發投入這個生產所以我們欠缺的是國防部這一塊嘛對不對"},{"start":3795.735,"end":3798.72,"text":"我們要的是國防部這一塊否則我們現在進口出口其實都有就是缺我們國防部這個特別條例給我們所有產業更好的背景更好的一個產業的一個力道是"},{"start":3811.299,"end":3839.294,"text":"我現在覺得亂七八糟所以我認為今天這樣的一個安排我覺得我們有一點把它混在一起了這個混在一起對我們的產業是沒有幫助的我們應該把它分得更清楚我們如何去發展無人機產業然後無人機產業如何有我們國防部更好的特別條例做一個更加的防衛保障"},{"start":3840.294,"end":3865.97,"text":"才能讓我們無人機產業更有擔當更有穩實的基礎所以拜託真的要把它分得很清楚否則所有無人機產業都跟我說了啊現在是在幹什麼啊我們的產業發展不是早就在做了嗎怎麼現在又把我們拉回去我覺得立場要擺得很清楚謝謝好 謝謝陳金輝委員接下來我們有請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":3879.13,"end":3888.559,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的郭部長還有經濟部的何次長一起好了請國防部經濟部是 二位好來 部長這個度假你們跟這個執政黨會員呢大家暢順聚焦其實是重要"},{"start":3905.374,"end":3925.19,"text":"來講不是什麼要要不要編特別預算重要就是要不要幫助無人機產業很重要加兩個字喔加四個字技術升級這個才重要沒有錯現在已經有無人機產業啦台灣那裡公告我們才通過了"},{"start":3926.956,"end":3954.546,"text":"經濟部補助了442億幫助無人機五年 未來的五年然後呢 說我們去年的產值129億這個比前年成長2.5倍外銷成長27倍台灣無人機產業總就有了啊今天這是要怎樣這個等於是我們很少特別醫生這樣子啦編了直接給廠商這錦上添花嘛"},{"start":3955.663,"end":3968.719,"text":"我就問部長馬上有一個問題就出現了無人機有兩百六十幾架請問你按照你 要買二十一萬架是不是二十一萬台都是無人機嗎"},{"start":3971.275,"end":3985.981,"text":"21萬架的無人機,還有1300多艘的無人艇對,21萬架的無人機,1300多架的無人艇無人艇這一部分,等一下會講,無人機的這一部分"},{"start":3987.618,"end":4006.31,"text":"請問你 你大概會分成幾包啦得到標的廠商大概幾家我們原則上就是每年會一標嘛然後會採公開招標的方式公開招標最有力標有沒有限制性標沒有 就最有力標 然後複數決標"},{"start":4007.611,"end":4032.366,"text":"好 那我就問你 那投標的資格有沒有限制我想投標的資格我們會依據相關的政府採購法政府採購法規定還有積極資格 消極資格他要做過這一方面的話大家現在擔心的是什麼擔心的是現在最近在講的話會不會過去一個茶葉山來飆啦 又飆到啦"},{"start":4033.226,"end":4050.837,"text":"家庭裝潢的標也標到了炸藥也標也標到了大家擔心的是這個部長你怎麼樣去排除他不是這個行業的人不知道透過什麼關係或者透過因為他是綠油油的企業就可以得這個標怎麼樣防止這個事情"},{"start":4052.818,"end":4079.966,"text":"委員好我是國防採購室主任向委員報告我們第一個原則一定是依據政府採購法剛剛委員所講的廠商的資格當然廠商的資格第一個是基本資格那基本資格我們原則上因為你有時間短期設立還有大選證明特殊資格剛剛委員剛剛的關鍵是特殊資格我想特殊資格不能亂定因為亂定就會不當限制廠商不當限制廠商或土地廠商那你回答我的吧我們是依據"},{"start":4080.726,"end":4085.753,"text":"公安的特性 需要 還有市場的傷勁 請打開來 你要告訴我們 你這個只是照明宣科告訴我們 怎麼樣防止外界"},{"start":4094.995,"end":4117.972,"text":"擔心的無人機又是要土地特定的廠商 擔心這個問題 怎麼來這是防幣的問題 防幣我想應該是從定的價格 尤其是規格規格基本上是依據我們作戰需求 但是作戰需求合不合於市長行情我們是會先公開徵求 公開願來"},{"start":4119.813,"end":4126.897,"text":"那你回答我大概幾個廠商會得票嘛你是市長是不是因為我時間有限我沒辦法很抱歉你要打斷你你講什麼你叫你包容誰多你給我背教科書讓我有時間你回答我大概幾家廠商會得票"},{"start":4137.962,"end":4166.426,"text":"這個目前不得而知當然知道了 怎麼不知道呢那你跟我們要兩千兩千多億是怎麼要的當然知道說我大概發給幾家廠商很好算二十一萬架的無人機如果一個廠商可以很好算嘛一萬台那就二十一架廠商所有我想這個所有國內廠商都有資格來參標我就告訴你啊"},{"start":4168.515,"end":4195.171,"text":"部長 兩位長官啊無人機的廠商有兩百六十幾家核次長很清楚的當我沒有得到標的時候我連標的資格都沒有的時候他心裡一定是XXXWhy not me?我為什麼不Qualify?我為什麼被你們Screen out?這問題在這裡啊你要想一個馬上就有人講Why not me?"},{"start":4196.639,"end":4217.588,"text":"為什麼不是我?我如果跟你們參與競標 我輸了 認了結果現在連標的資格都沒有 因為你們在這個標案的資格你們就會去掉一些 就會放一些條件在裡面包委員 絕對不會有這種情形我還是要公開 尤其是公開我們就講 懷囊你 今天我要跟你講"},{"start":4220.169,"end":4241.854,"text":"我們有兩百六十幾家的無人機廠商我相信得標的不會超過五十家其他的兩百多家一定這樣 看來也算還有咧 其他的廠商咧跟委員報告就是說他因為要整齊交付嘛可是剛剛提到的這些每一家廠商都有他的一個"},{"start":4243.334,"end":4269.277,"text":"有點但是最後要有一個系統整合能夠整機交互系統整合能夠做的廠商沒幾家喔系統整合的廠商就是大家要去統合所有其他不管是非控、通訊、光電、導航、看干擾等等這些廠商他們有相關的能力然後他們自然會對我們相關的公告的規格進行投標我時間快到了我跟你講你給我回答一個問題"},{"start":4271.127,"end":4295.554,"text":"我問了幾個專家說你要買的無人機21萬架裡面真正的High-end所謂High-end就是Low-end就是Low-endHigh-end是自動導航還有其他的我就不細講了因為這個太多是有技術問題的High-end只有2000架左右2000台左右其他都比較是Low-end所以"},{"start":4298.843,"end":4314.208,"text":"怎麼樣讓台灣的無人機產業技術升級變得非常重要這就是為什麼我要提無人機的產業技術升級這就是我們為什麼要提出特別預算的原理沒有啊因為特別預算有一個成三的一個效應你們買到是一般的無人機啊"},{"start":4319.23,"end":4327.439,"text":"我們軍規的標準不管在剛剛所提到的飛控、通訊、光電導航跟看大腦上面我們訂一個規格然後這個規格我們會根據商情然後我們來逐步引導它迭代創新這個就是長單的效應假設你今天沒有一個長單你今天訂了一個規格那方面不知道有沒有那就沒有一個迭代創新的驅動力部長啦 其實"},{"start":4341.773,"end":4353.822,"text":"一個特別預算或者一個無人機的發展預算各自表述你們一定要特別預算我們一定要一般預算那我們寫個組決就解決啦我們寫個組決議如果通過是2400、2500、2600不管whatever然後我們就想說未來幾年一定要花這個錢"},{"start":4364.529,"end":4384.585,"text":"我覺得我們的重點就是我們一定要排紅啦然後我們要讓我們的廠商能夠升級然後跟國際合作藉由非常長暫的效應造成這樣子的一個自主的一個無人載具的一個非常重要的一個理念啊我請教你啊美國就在昨天還是前天MDAA 國防授權法"},{"start":4389.741,"end":4394.756,"text":"在明年的時候那個十億美金我們沒有因為他們被參議院否決了"},{"start":4396.202,"end":4423.045,"text":"這個事情原來2026年的時候就我的了解NDA包括裡面很多很多議題那這些他們現在所談論的這些相關的課題呢應該就我的了解跟這個是無關的因為他們在其他的部分有爭議那NDA所涉及到的相關的事項相當的多啦不用了不用了2026年他要給我們10億叫我們買無人機喔叫我們發展無人機用這個10億喔"},{"start":4424.434,"end":4441.685,"text":"你沒放進來?沒有教我們說要買無人機有啊有啊你去讀一讀條文報告員如果您去看一下那個去年2026 NDA裡面講的是協助我們提升軍用醫療以及無人機發展那個彈藥庫儲等相關的東西以及無人機發展然後來一個我們覺得很奇怪是你們來來來最後一個那個部長啊"},{"start":4448.032,"end":4476.684,"text":"我看到什麼裡面中央社會報導說高層官員我相信是國防部的官員向日經亞洲透露計劃從中科院替海巡署買25艘的無人艇兩艘的無人水下這句這個為什麼不是海巡市買來來來 講一下中科院整形怎麼樣海巡是按照中科院設置條例委制給中科院來採購"},{"start":4478.343,"end":4497.905,"text":"我跟你們講喔部長講說我們要買一千三百架的一千三百台的無人艇你們這個中科院現在做了要到明年才有pro type才有第一艘的運行艦嘛對不對pro type會在今年就獲得今年那也是一台而已啊量產可以可以"},{"start":4498.766,"end":4517.311,"text":"不會適合一台來那個院長你我最後一句話你們要注意了那個特別預算是任性的特別預算到時候已經失敗了所以我還要重申部長不要糾結虛擬宜是不是特別預算要想說這個錢給這個比較重要謝謝好謝謝賴司保委員謝謝接下來我們請邱益穎委員諮詢"},{"start":4539.358,"end":4549.711,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下國防部長好了請國防部部長好難得有機會在經紀委員會問到國防部我還不把握一下這個機會來部長這個"},{"start":4554.022,"end":4575.127,"text":"我很難得在經濟委員會可以來問國防部基本上我覺得我們今天排定的議程把這三個條例草案放在一起審然後放在經濟委員會主審我覺得這是一個非常奇怪的過去在立法院我擔任這麼久的立法委員我從來沒有遇過這樣的一個狀態"},{"start":4577.014,"end":4588.648,"text":"部長您是學法的出身的齁您看一下這三個法案的條文我只看條文我先看條文第一個行政院版是國防自主無人載具採購特別條例"},{"start":4592.117,"end":4615.478,"text":"國民黨版叫做國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例民眾黨是強化國防自主及無人機產業發展條例單單三個法案名稱就完全不相同基本精神也完全不相同對不對部長您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":4616.641,"end":4645.209,"text":"基本精神也就不一樣我想就我們國防部的部分我們就是很特定的標定我們採購的內容你是一個為了特定的無人載具所以要有一個採購嘛所以產業發展這一塊並不在你國防部的主要主責範圍之內嘛產業發展無人機的無人載具的產業發展是在經濟部主責嘛所以剛剛一直在講產業發展要協助升級國防產業需要到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":4646.649,"end":4674.347,"text":"經濟部就應該要去協助廠商做產業的升級做無人載具的升級是不是這樣這個應該是最重要的一個基本精神嘛經濟部也有相關的計畫在推動經濟部呢大概是花五年的時間大概會有400多億的這樣的一個協助產業發展無人載具產業發展的這樣的一個計畫我看了一下國民黨版的這個法案內容"},{"start":4677.891,"end":4688.263,"text":"剛剛這個賴思寶委員也好或者是國民黨代表國民黨黨團來做提案說明的林佩祥委員也好他們提到的部分其實我聽不太懂國民黨版的第二條第二條的條文寫到本條例的主管機關是經濟部"},{"start":4696.867,"end":4724.466,"text":"國防自主的採購主管機關是經濟部然後呢又寫本條例所稱主辦機關是經濟部跟國防部然後又說本條例涉及國防採購研發補助等等由主管機關會同國防部及有關主管機關共同辦理一個主管機關會同國防部及有關主管機關共同辦理這個法律文字上面"},{"start":4725.487,"end":4733.175,"text":"您學法的法律文字上面看起來是不是有很大的問題國防自主的採購主管機關是經濟部"},{"start":4737.295,"end":4760.025,"text":"這顛覆了我對於政府不管是採購法也好或是是政府對於所有的預算編列也好顛覆了我對他們所有的制度的想像來部長你回答一下我想我們看到國民黨有一個在科技發展後面有一個叫做採購這個兩個字在他的條例裡面嘛"},{"start":4760.711,"end":4778.945,"text":"那關於國防的這個採購的部分我們認為如果涉及到國防軍事這個部分的話應該是要由國防部為主管機關是啊那這是第一點第二點就是說採購的標的它既然寫採購條例那到底要採購是什麼事項"},{"start":4781.327,"end":4804.338,"text":"標的物是什麼 這個應該是國防部要決定嘛這個標的物採購的標的物不會是經濟部來決定嘛國防部才理解我們的作戰需求所以這個法 這個法令 這個條例放在經濟委員會來主審 那就很奇怪好 再講到無人載具 我們講的都是無人載具結果民眾黨的版本只有寫無人機"},{"start":4806.215,"end":4832.145,"text":"所以他只發展會飛的那你們還有要談到什麼自殺的無人艇啊機器狗啊等等所有這些東西都不在民眾黨黨團的這個版本裡面喔他只發展天上飛的無人機喔其他的無人載具是沒有在他的發展條例裡面的喔那這個也把它放進來這裡一併來審我也覺得這個很奇怪好 預算的額度"},{"start":4833.997,"end":4857.532,"text":"軍事採購的預算依照我的了解軍事採購預算不會是我一年編400億然後我今年把400億花掉今年去買然後明年呢再編400億再來買軍事預算應該不會是這樣吧你們軍事的訂單都會是長期的訂單嘛建造一個符合你們需要的無人載具不會是我今年有400億買400億明年有400億再買400億不會是這樣吧"},{"start":4862.619,"end":4889.497,"text":"我想這裡面有幾個問題第一個當然就是說立法院自己要通過一個條例然後來要求行政機關要怎麼編列預算然後要編多少的預算我想跟立法跟行政的權力分裂原則是抵觸的我想立法機關就是審預算不能夠去指導行政院如何編預算這是第一個第二個就是說"},{"start":4890.317,"end":4915.149,"text":"在他的第16條裡面那個400億的那個項目呢他都混在一起他包括軍用無人載具的採購然後也包括軍民公用測試場域也包括產業聚落發展跟中小企業特別服務等等他把這個400億混在一起了但是我們希望由國安部主導的就國安部主管機關那麼經濟部主導就經濟部主管機關這兩個混在一起然後又要求"},{"start":4915.749,"end":4943.074,"text":"行政要如何編列我想這樣子的一個一個作為會讓這個行政院包括國防部跟經濟部都會有自然來行之處而且這個條例如果按照這樣的400億到底哪些算在400億裡面那400億送過來到立法院之後那立法院自己通過的預算如果他刪掉任何一毛錢那是不是就違法了是啊部長所以你點到的重點還有另外一個部分就是說他放在公務預算裡頭每年審查對不對"},{"start":4944.454,"end":4959.868,"text":"今年115年的國家的總預算到現在還沒過如果未來如果未來國防部把這個發展無人載具的預算編入公務預算你要什麼時候開始編然後什麼時候會過115年的現在已經7月7月十幾號7月快20號了"},{"start":4963.951,"end":4989.702,"text":"今年115年的預算都還沒過那很快的明年度的預算要送進立法院了那我不知道明年度的預算什麼時候過那這個預算沒過的時候 你的五輪載具要不要買你要不要跟國外採購 要不要訂購 如何訂購這個是一個很大的問題耶過去我通常不太 我不太同意翁小玲委員的看法但是翁小玲委員她曾經在在這個是教育委員會 她說立委的職責是審預算不是編預算耶"},{"start":4991.516,"end":5016.142,"text":"他講過幾千幾萬句的話我只同意他這一句欸立法委員的職責是審預算不是編預算欸然後你把一些完全不相干的不搭嘎的法令國防採購跟產業發展把它放在一併審理然後由主管機關變成經濟部主管機關由國防部變成經濟部荒謬至極可笑至極啊那我不知道國民黨團提出這個版本是要給誰看"},{"start":5018.226,"end":5046.024,"text":"是要給誰看他們一直講說國內的無人機業者有幾百家然後呢你只編了400億的預算幾百家的業者不是每一個都做軍用吧幾百家的業者不是每一個他的規格都能符合你國防的採購吧那你的400億是幾百家業者每一家雨露均沾每一個分一點點分個幾千萬嗎這也不符合國防採購的需求嘛"},{"start":5047.608,"end":5071.175,"text":"以國際經驗來看部長我想這個您一定最清楚的美英法德日韓澳所有國家對於無人機的採購無人載具的採購都是以他們的國防部為主管機關為主責單位獨獨台灣非常的特別以經濟部來當主管機關"},{"start":5075.595,"end":5104.945,"text":"真的是會笑掉人家的大牙這你看委員吼有的這樣沒特赤 又走沒衛生啦該產業發展的 我贊成產業發展經濟部要負起全責全力協助國內的無人載具的業者全力升級但是該國防採購面對到重要的國家安全的事情你不能獲悉 你不能胡搞亂搞啊"},{"start":5107.216,"end":5129.308,"text":"然後一堆說是博士 說是教授連基本的法條 基本的概念 基本的邏輯都搞不清楚在立法院現在叫經濟委員會來審國防採購然後來訂定一個莫名其妙的特別條例所以部長 我想在這個部分上面 國軍需要什麼"},{"start":5130.604,"end":5156.775,"text":"國家的產業要引導他們往哪一個方向去這個是國防部跟經濟部應該共同去合作但是我是全力支持你們行政院提出來的國防採購特別無人載具的特別條例我希望在國家安全的這一塊上面大家都能夠全力的支持不要說面對到外賓或者是去美國拜訪的時候"},{"start":5158.206,"end":5177.067,"text":"美國人直接問你為什麼不支持國防採購國民黨的委員每個都講得頭頭是道啊每個人都講說他們支持國家安全啊他們支持國防啊回到立法院來完全不是那麼一回事啊部長我想這個你應該很清楚啊這是台灣現在最大的危機啊"},{"start":5178.567,"end":5203.123,"text":"全世界都在看台灣人怎麼樣保護台灣人台灣人對於自己的國防預算對於國防的防衛系統台灣人到底要怎麼做啊而國會就站在第一線啊所以我想這一點也要請國防部這個我們會是全力支持啦但是面對到這麼荒謬的法案審查我想就免了謝謝好 謝謝邱議員委員接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員質詢"},{"start":5211.53,"end":5240.325,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請顧部長請國安部顧部長 謝謝部長我先請教一下今天有媒體來報導說這個文載具得條例的審查那中共北京那邊有主動提出了三個原則也就是以明帶軍實成彈性跟釋出公義念的機會部長有聽過這樣的消息嗎我想我也是看新聞"},{"start":5241.887,"end":5268.108,"text":"部長有沒有這樣的擔憂我因為也是從新聞報紙上面看到這個新聞沒有辦法現在進一步有任何的我請教一下部長以無人居這幾年的發展的趨勢無人載具的趨勢的話這應該對台灣來說我們投入這些預算應該是一個多贏的這個部長認同吧對我們就是以這個長單的一個需求來帶動一個"},{"start":5269.949,"end":5288.758,"text":"我們自主產業鏈的一個規模跟升級對國軍對產業都是好事嘛對不對對 螢光鏈符合我們的戰略需求然後形成一個自主供應鏈然後在暫時可以隨時擴產所以基本上它是一個多贏的方案那有誰會不高興然後產業能夠升級部長那你認為有誰會不高興我想"},{"start":5293.53,"end":5315.733,"text":"因為基於我們做形成這個不對稱戰力對於台海的防衛作戰有一個重大的一個效益所以我想北京當然會很憂心對所以北京中共是會不高興的想要阻止破壞這件事情是中共嘛所以他今天有提到說他想要爭取足夠的空間而且擔心我們的無人載具無人機這個壞了"},{"start":5316.954,"end":5340.111,"text":"大陸多年苦心經營的台海的優勢所以如果我們用這種不對稱的戰力無人載具的話會讓台灣得到更大的一個安全上的保證嘛 是吧是 在防衛作案上面我想我們用小的代價就會得到很重大的效果而讓中共不敢輕舉妄動不敢整個對台灣任何的一個侵略的行動 是吧我想在俄烏戰爭"},{"start":5343.413,"end":5363.405,"text":"打到現在我想已經可以看得很清楚了無人載具整個改變了戰爭的形態所以這也是北京中共最擔憂的所以他當然會想盡各種方法讓你台灣讓你的國防部讓你不能夠取得無人載具讓你沒有這樣的能量那他才能爭取到更多的空間對台灣施壓的空間甚至驅逐台灣的空間是吧"},{"start":5364.345,"end":5391.496,"text":"對 因為尤其我們必須透過這樣子的一個特別預算來帶動一個我們軍規要求的比較特殊的這些我們國內可能還需要跟國外再來進一步合作不管是飛控、通訊、光電導航、看干擾能力等等這些我想都需要再進一步所以我們的軍規預算一個非紅供應鏈不要仰賴中國然後也能夠打入國際供應鏈然後又能夠自主產能"},{"start":5392.196,"end":5415.857,"text":"所以這就是我講的多贏嘛 這是一個多贏的方案嘛其實國際跟國防部跟產業界都會支持 台灣人民也會支持所以我們不理解為什麼在當時我們的軍國預算4700億被刪掉無人載具的刪掉 這是毫無理由的因為他對台灣的安全是好的唯一會不高興的就是中共而已 但是竟然會被刪掉了所以為什麼會有這樣的說法出來 就是說"},{"start":5416.517,"end":5442.193,"text":"以民代軍現在看來這樣的草案裡面看起來在野黨的版本是以民代軍啊 部長是嗎其實我不是很清楚所謂以民代軍的意思是什麼如果說是對於我們的軍事面的一個作戰需求要求要降低的話我們國防部是沒有辦法接受我們國防部就是希望能夠不斷的提升我的認知以民代軍就是"},{"start":5443.334,"end":5459.614,"text":"像這樣的無人載具的部分以民間發展為優先啦不要國防部 國防不要用啦不要國防用 不要軍用啦我們就是希望我們是最大的一個需求單位嘛所以我們國防的作戰的需求有一定的一個規格的要求"},{"start":5460.074,"end":5483.739,"text":"那這些規格的要求就是能夠帶動產業升級所以這對台灣才是重要的嘛因為每一個都是要經過實際的一個實際的測試的嘛那唯有國防部重視支持的時候世界才會信任台灣的這些產業能力同時間當我們有20萬架的無人機的時候我們才能夠確保台海的和平嘛所以這個方向絕對是正確誰會不高興 中共會不高興包括時程"},{"start":5484.879,"end":5499.621,"text":"彈性他希望時程能夠拉長一點對我們來說如果能夠現在趕快用特別預算直接能夠立即來做處理的話那台灣能夠最快時間去取得這20萬架的無人機的話無人載具的話對台灣當然是最安全的保障吧部長同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":5500.322,"end":5521.603,"text":"對,我想是這樣,因為我們無人載具,國內有一定的量,因為國內的這些半導體的產業,特別在硬體的部分,我們有很大的優勢,那所以在軟體的部分,我們跟國外能夠來進行合作,那產業升級,然後迭代創新,我想這也本身就是一個很重要的"},{"start":5521.923,"end":5532.006,"text":"這是最好的方案啦因為我們現在的業者需要的是訂單而國防部也需要國防部給了大量的一個機會的時候我們的業者就能夠在這些訂單中去增強我們的實力打上國際盃同時間我們國防部也能取得更多無人載具的能量的時候我們更能確保我們台灣的和平所以這個絕對是一個多贏的方案所以我不解為什麼會有"},{"start":5543.669,"end":5563.802,"text":"所以今天包括釋出供應鏈的機會在我看來就是要打掉非紅供應鏈這件事情但是現在已經很明確我們絕對是跟美國的民主友邦站在一起我們怎麼可能在這件事情上是跟一個獨裁專制的國家站在一起對 非紅供應鏈是我們這一次提出特別預算用這個長單索就要達到一個非常非常重要的一個目的因為"},{"start":5564.822,"end":5583.977,"text":"現在畢竟在民用的部分中國的無人機佔了相當大的市場現在世界各國都在國防的運用上面都已經體認到在這一點不能夠去依賴中國的這些不管是關鍵民主建或者是相關的這些揮控或者通訊模組等等"},{"start":5584.737,"end":5605.557,"text":"所以大家都要採取這個去紅化產生的民主供應鏈然後我們在這個民主供應鏈上面我們必須要佔有一席之地佔有一席之地那就是要跟這些理念價值相近的國家來共同合作部長我再問吼無人載具重不重要無人機無人艦這個未來發展重不重要"},{"start":5607.088,"end":5620.927,"text":"就我們國防部立場對防衛作戰有非常的一個在不對稱作戰能力的建構上面具有非港高度的重要性非常高度的重要性那我問你一下台灣在五人載具這一塊的能力是不是也得到肯定"},{"start":5622.473,"end":5641.151,"text":"我想無人載具因為它不斷地迭代創新最主要就是說它可能幾個月前是一種能力對不對那幾個月後又是一種能力的進展那這個我們國內有一定的基礎這也就是我們所以能夠發展的一個"},{"start":5641.792,"end":5666.534,"text":"部長這兩年快速的發展我們的訂單快速的成長所以這個也看得出來我們其實有很強的一個能力那我也希望大家應該共同來支持啦如果我剛剛講過特別預算才能夠達到最大的一個效果我相信國人都是支持的國人都支持這也是個多贏的那如果採年度預算其實大家已經講到非常多了它涉及到了排擠的效應涉及到能不能定期的編列出來"},{"start":5667.274,"end":5691.176,"text":"業界也擔憂甚至可能影響到其他的育兒甚至老農甚至治水的經費這都會影響到甚至騎乘都會受影響這就是老共所希望的所以我們希望各界應該共同朝野應該共同來支持行政院的版本支持國防部我想這才是一個忠於人民忠於國家的一個做法部長認同嗎是好 我們希望朝野應該共同來忠於國家忠於人民好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":5694.482,"end":5711.963,"text":"好 謝謝賴大榮委員 接下來有請林佩樺委員好 有請經濟部國防部我們請經濟部和次國防部副部長"},{"start":5717.651,"end":5727.836,"text":"部長您的報告當中有講到的第三頁提到我們要這樣的一個無人載具的採購能夠培植國內無人載具暫時擴充的能量與韌性"},{"start":5735.16,"end":5741.141,"text":"那你覺得怎麼樣在全機體國內組裝之非紅供應鏈下打造安全韌性的無人載具生態系你這邊也特別去強調非紅供應鏈這也是本席也非常認同這是我們國家的一個軍購的一個原則這個最高原則"},{"start":5764.426,"end":5788.977,"text":"那從經濟部這邊呢我看不出你怎麼去支援國防部也就是說在我們針對台海不對稱的這個地域場景這也是國防部您這邊的報告當中去提到那當然本席要求預算必須精準對接中南部的航太聚落跟落實自主產能好那"},{"start":5791.879,"end":5812.732,"text":"包括您這樣的2100億的特別預算的軍購案當中即爭即打即的這個殺戀那你們有這個即時目標的爭獲對於這個濱海偵測型的無人機包括精準打擊摧毀濱海攻擊型的無人機以及這個水面主角迫害的小型自殺無人艇好 這些的採購案你怎麼落實讓我能夠帶動我國內的"},{"start":5821.879,"end":5836.331,"text":"這個的產業呢來部長您說看看您的做法是什麼我們的做法就是說我們獲得一個特別預算雖然是長年的一個預算可是我們會分年"},{"start":5837.632,"end":5862.998,"text":"分批採購那我們在每年的分批採購裡面我們會逐步的提升我們要求的規格性能然後符合迭代創新那所以就我們做一個最大的需求單位我們要求所有的這個屬於這個無人機也好無人艇也好他都要能夠排行那因此他就要有一個看到這個長單他才會願意投資然後建立一個穩定的一個產業規模"},{"start":5864.819,"end":5876.273,"text":"你們國防部也不可能常常接觸啊最接觸業者的所有傳統產業的業者的關鍵零組件的業者會是經濟部啊那你這邊又是怎麼的跟經濟部合作呢"},{"start":5876.809,"end":5889.732,"text":"我們這邊是以需求來創造規模跟這個升級那經濟部的話可能會是以這個產業補助的方式來帶動這個這個產業界願意進行投資對 那產業需要技術啊產業需要設備啊產業需要輔導團隊啊那你這個對接上我知道部長你就是開一個規格嘛然後就招標嘛"},{"start":5902.815,"end":5907.318,"text":"那些廠商能不能符合 反正你就是來招標嘛那對我們現在的 以我中南部高雄來講你們大內宣 都說這個對於我們國內啊多少的產值啊我南部這麼多 我們有全世界第一流的扣件產業我們的中鋼台船 中油石化鏈全部我們有幾個石化具 有三個石化具在高雄欸"},{"start":5931.271,"end":5937.933,"text":"這邊的業者哀鴻遍野所以我都不曉得你這邊寫說我們要打造飛鴻供應鏈啊要加惠我的這個基礎展業啊在哪裡啊所以從你這張我就覺得不可能啊因為你沒有輔導啊這些的業者過往都是在他們的各個行業當中啊去發展啊我做石化業的我做船的我做台電的我做這個中油的"},{"start":5960.902,"end":5976.16,"text":"包括國家建設的那他們領主権的能力有沒有有啊那他怎麼對應那你怎麼的來落實呢所以你的你跟你也沒跟我講說你要跟經濟部合作你只說好我國防部開單"},{"start":5977.621,"end":5994.234,"text":"然後呢 那經濟部你怎麼對接啊好 跟委員報告其實我們經濟部跟國安部有一個平台那也就是說叫什麼平台就是軍民這個科技創新的這樣的一個平台層級在哪裡對 層級是在次長次長級的這樣一個平台次長對次長對 次長對次長的一個平台固定開會什麼時候那我們會固定固定開會固定的話大概是每半年每半年會有每半年 難怪"},{"start":6005.703,"end":6022.746,"text":"我所有的基礎產業根本都沒有受益到嘛所以國安部會把他們需求會告訴我們那我們就會把他的需求他的技術要求到什麼樣的等級這個部分我們會透過產業輔導我們去協助我們廠商提升這個技術輔導的技術的能力那透過科技專案透過法人科專業界科專的方式來跟我們的這個業者一同來針對一些技術的缺口來提升"},{"start":6035.109,"end":6037.57,"text":"好 你知道你114年 經濟部你114年到119年編了442億的無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫好 那這個國防部呢 現在如果通過2100億"},{"start":6050.918,"end":6063.649,"text":"不管是在國防部主導或者是你經濟部主導那你怎麼對接如果假設是還是國防部主導他還是開規格啊很明顯不管是經濟部主導規格還是你國防部開啊好那你開了之後你2100億耶那你怎麼來教會我國內的製造業者啊"},{"start":6071.312,"end":6078.978,"text":"顧部長然後呢你的經濟部目前也只有442億那你這442億是要再怎麼樣的對接你現在怎麼對接我這2100億的採購單啊還是2100億當中再撥多少會是到你們經濟部來啊跟委員報告其實我們442億"},{"start":6092.789,"end":6098.694,"text":"裡面我們經濟部就編了141億做研發的研發方面 你再講一次你說多少 2100億當中442億的統籌型計劃它是散落在各個部會的需求裡面那我們經濟部這邊光這個研發補助的部分我們就提出了141億的一個研發補助 市長還有部長 這個就是要來協助部長我這邊點出一個什麼問題我現在點出的"},{"start":6120.47,"end":6141.19,"text":"也難怪啦我一定支持行政院版本但是如果按照顧部長你這樣的打法也難怪這個有這個在野黨要提出是放在經濟部就民間來講他先不講說這個什麼國防自主飛鴻公園他就講說他的訂單因為他們快活不下去了他覺得這個訂單放在經濟部才有訂單啊"},{"start":6144.301,"end":6153.324,"text":"才有會實質的有輔導團隊好然後呢反正你一定會開規格可是真的落實陪伴我的產業的是誰是經濟部啊可是他資源最少反正你規格開了之後然後之後要輔導的就是都在經濟部也難怪也難怪有人說要提出要放在經濟部啊因為你產業沒有講啊好那如果來啊這個建立那我本席要要求啊"},{"start":6171.749,"end":6176.193,"text":"除了供應飛鴻供應鏈之後我認為本席認為一定要提高自治率的審查機制了好那排除拿外國組件來台索羅斯的投機者好所以呢這個我也說好你們的這國產化你們的這個呃呃這個呃"},{"start":6191.447,"end":6198.149,"text":"臺灣製造啊我也怕你們有這樣弊端啊那所以呢拿國外組件來台鎖螺絲啊所以在這邊我們的防線我認為主計總處撥款查核的條件合約零文化明定技術關鍵技術比如說非控抗干擾本土產製的比例是多少你的付款的卡控撥款必須將在地的自治率列為絕對審核查核的條件"},{"start":6219.474,"end":6234.841,"text":"好那這個部分是是這個國安部你能夠開嗎我就這樣要求啊或者我怎麼落實我的在地生產我從龜紅攻略已經要有一定已經到另外第二階段了哪一個是要多少筆是我國內要做"},{"start":6236.605,"end":6250.143,"text":"來部長我國防部的立場是我們排除中國的任何的這個原件或者是進入在我們這一個無人機或者無人艇的採購案但是我們不會排除跟國際上面的合作"},{"start":6251.376,"end":6269.67,"text":"對 那對我國內產業那對我國內產業的家會在哪裡所以我全部都是去買我除了這不買中國之外我買美國 我買加拿大的我買澳洲的 我買英國的所以就是沒有買台灣的台灣也沒有能力把它提升起來你的意思就這樣喔"},{"start":6270.23,"end":6289.788,"text":"跟委員報告我們國內的這個產業的能力在無論載具這一塊是很強的那我們有一些部分要做一些特殊規格的升級可能不能很難以避免還是要跟國外的一些業者來進行相關的合作但是我們排除中國的部分"},{"start":6290.208,"end":6319.25,"text":"那你如何幫助讓這個技術呢這個在做技術合作的同時當然我們也希望它能夠技術落地謝謝主席 主席不好意思再給我一分鐘就好如何幫助在地的金屬加工與航太業者跨過軍規如非控抗干擾的嚴苛門檻我們都事前會做一些商情的調查所以我們會盡量的讓這些規格在既有的這個情況之下商情是你自己做還是你要跟經濟部一起合作"},{"start":6319.75,"end":6321.86,"text":"我們會跟他一起合作,我們自己也會做"},{"start":6322.982,"end":6333.469,"text":"那請你一定要到高雄來啊我高雄都從來沒有接觸過什麼叫做什麼叫做無人載具光是經濟部下的我就覺得寥寥無幾的好你開出2100億我中南部哪一個業者會說哇真的哇真的這個也可以看到我們這麼哀鴻遍野的一個傳統產業可以看到生機 沒有啊所以你的這個輔導請下到高雄至少要高雄南二都裡面一定要有好嗎"},{"start":6352.842,"end":6356.866,"text":"部長啊 郭部長 可以嗎這個部 我想我們經濟部會來對啊 你看嘛所以我要點出你國防部根本沒有能力去培養你只會喊而已啊你不排除跟國外合作 到時候全部都是"},{"start":6368.097,"end":6376.645,"text":"都跟國外來 然後再來 洗產地中國再通過洗產地 再進到我國內來不都是這樣嗎經濟部都是在防堵這些事情啊好 再來政策 我這經濟部442億的輔導預算是否已針對國防部開出的規格進行實質的技術對接了呢經濟部442億你有對接這個國防部嗎"},{"start":6390.037,"end":6404.033,"text":"有的 我們有一些軍民通用的這個技術其實已經是對接了那剛也跟委員報告其實我們跟國安部有這樣的一個平台他們會把需求提前告訴我們好 OK 最後我謝謝主席我最後就結論國際授權台灣製造電力戰略"},{"start":6408.118,"end":6420.553,"text":"這個任性 我具體要求兩個 跨部會對接我認為只有國防部跟這個經濟部次長級還不夠行政院級的對接小組 成立行政院級的無人載具採購與產業對接小組比照"},{"start":6423.877,"end":6446.412,"text":"美國DIU的國防創新小組他以國防部跟他們的經濟部合作然後跟他們的矽谷合作跨部會的合作讓中南部的產業聚落升級我知道你要說這個副院長已經有了但那個是沒有效的因為你們看不出規格把所有的這個各部會收集出來你們沒有規格直接給你們一個產發署讓產發署去找出那個規格問民間問民間你的規格是什麼來產生所謂的規格"},{"start":6454.217,"end":6475.356,"text":"你們的做法是這樣那再來我要求因為時間到了關鍵零組件的國產化路徑我請國防部提出交出逐年成長的這個時程表請國防部接同經濟部於一個月內提交關鍵零組件國產化比例的逐年成長路徑圖需要包括系統次系統時程表及項目顧部長請回應"},{"start":6481.724,"end":6499.937,"text":"我們會持續跟經濟部合作來瞭解說有國內的這個有關於不管是整機或者相關的關鍵零組件的一個能力然後我們會做一個適當的一個規格的擬定那我們會跟這個經濟部來通常一個月可以嗎來有關就如何進行相關的這些應該是說軍民的這些技術的這個對調一個月可以嗎經濟部來保持"},{"start":6511.038,"end":6517.512,"text":"副部長回答我時程 裡面黃金十年在告訴我嗎還是一個月內提出來這個關鍵零組件國產化路徑圖一個月可以嗎 協同經濟部"},{"start":6522.946,"end":6548.013,"text":"我想這個部分的關鍵零組件的國產化的這個比例我們才會再跟經濟部那是不是由經濟部來提出對啊你看你看我問到部長答不出來因為不是你的問題喔郭部長那個委員不要一直在那邊講說我答不出來答不出來我的國防部就是依照國我的作戰戰力的需求我提出我的採購項目嘛對那誰來支持你業者嘛那業者的輔導的項目這是經濟部在主管啊我會來協助"},{"start":6550.093,"end":6578.312,"text":"你會寫字嘛但是我就認為你做得不好啊部長本來你就是交不出來啊所以你這邊已經想出答案你根本對業者是沒有辦法去做處理的嘛本來也不是你的業務啊所以你應該很誠實的講可是今天開規則的是你啊所以我這邊要求國防部接同經濟部因為規格是你再開啊好那你如果要給經濟部那我告訴你你這樣的回答剛好讓人家為什麼主管機關要放在經濟部了那次長你回答一個月能不能提出來"},{"start":6579.386,"end":6594.695,"text":"我最在意的是我國內的業者能不能在這樣2100億包括你們的7000多萬億當中能夠加惠我的這個傳統產業根本沒有嘛根文包我們是不是可以提出技術缺口的一個路徑圖我們來補強這個部分好 謝謝好 謝謝林大華委員 謝謝好 接下來我請這個鄭天才委員 謝謝"},{"start":6619.073,"end":6647.467,"text":"好 趙偉有請國防部部長還有經濟部次長好 請國防部顧部長跟經濟部合次好 部長好這個何次長好今天審查這個行政院版的國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案還有這個民眾黨團的還有這個國民黨團的主要是這三個"},{"start":6650.954,"end":6671.33,"text":"這個行政院版這是行政院版的總說明裡面的文字第一個我們看這個法例名稱國防自主無人採集採購就是要國防自主無人採集也就是要買自己的自主好"},{"start":6672.574,"end":6684.95,"text":"你的草案說明總說明特別提到無人載機產業涵蓋載機製造電池系統光電感測器人工智慧通訊設備軟體開發及維修保養等多元領域"},{"start":6691.189,"end":6719.094,"text":"国军采购无人 最后才是后面才是国军采购无人载机创造无人载机产业附加机会及投资效益所以前面都是经济部就产业科技科技所以经济部有科技专案他整个这个经济部的预算里面有科技专案"},{"start":6720.374,"end":6733.145,"text":"這個是經濟部的一個非常重要的所以我們要國防自主不能窄近當然就是要經濟部來去協助國防部是協助國防部"},{"start":6737.114,"end":6763.964,"text":"你這邊也提到創造無人載具副家產業副家就業機會以投資效益打造國防安全及產業發展效益並行之國家新興戰略可創造國防及民生雙贏的局面我們看這個第一條的條文的說明跟我剛念的是類似"},{"start":6766.854,"end":6793.224,"text":"我們看這個國民黨團的版本國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例這個我們的相關的無人載具在科技專案裡面都在推動都在推動也編列了預算所以我們怎麼樣去強化去加強"},{"start":6794.907,"end":6822.147,"text":"也許經費年度的預算的關係讓我們特別用法例法例來明定來去加強這些預算這些相關的這些推動所以國民黨團的版本就提出這樣的一個條例草案這裡面第一條也特別說明了這個"},{"start":6823.699,"end":6852.343,"text":"國防自主與產業升級雙重的效益我們看這個第二條主管機關國民黨團的版本跟民眾黨團的版本是一樣經濟部主管機關當然這裡面因為涉及到我們這一次的很重要的就是因為國防的部分國防要自主"},{"start":6853.248,"end":6881.613,"text":"所以國防部也特別列為主辦機關怎麼樣在這個國防自主的無人採集的這樣的一個推動上兩個機關共同的推動這個也是現在在進行中的也就是剛才經濟部次長說的次長跟次長每半年"},{"start":6883.011,"end":6909.242,"text":"會有這樣的一個匯報那我們現在把它法律化提升為法律為什麼說提升為法律呢因為行政院本來就有一個無人載具產業發展統籌型的計畫把這個計畫提升為法律而這個計畫就是經濟部為主就是經濟部"},{"start":6913.271,"end":6940.031,"text":"你看我們這個計畫裡面就提到建於無人載具無人機及水面水下無人船以廣泛用於農業監測環境保護物流輸出很多包括國防自主及民生供應鏈以實現產業發展國防自主及民生供應鏈"},{"start":6942.692,"end":6969.379,"text":"這個就是已經有這樣的行政院的這樣一個很重要的計畫在推動中我們怎麼樣能夠更強化所以要提升為法律的位階這個就是一個很基本的所以這個部分因為我們不要太為難國防部為什麼國防部的專業不在科技啊不是不在科技產業"},{"start":6972.217,"end":7000.32,"text":"這個就是不要為難國防部的同仁怎麼樣讓國防部跟經濟部共同的去推動要以經濟部為主現在的計畫就是啊所以這個部分剛才講了就是主要是這個四大推動的主軸在這個計畫裡面也提到啊"},{"start":7001.491,"end":7014.901,"text":"剛才顧部長一再提到的這裡面就提了建立非紅供應鏈整合能量113年完成軍用商規及無人機採購案總共3422架6887億元"},{"start":7025.851,"end":7048.88,"text":"藉由國軍訂單逐步達到規模經濟並促使產業成熟所以我們就是把這個計畫提升為法律的位階也就是要達到顧部長一直強調的建立非紅供應鏈而這樣的一個推動"},{"start":7053.462,"end":7075.328,"text":"各部會國防部都有編列預算經濟部各部會都編列預算去推動因為不是只有國防部還有其他機關也都會用到也需要都在推動也編列預算都有甚至日本都來買了日本無人機大廠以前面採用飛虹供應鏈"},{"start":7083.427,"end":7100.46,"text":"跟台灣做這麼重大的一個合作國際的訂單也創了紀錄所以都在推動嘛所以我們就是把這些提升為法律的位階才能夠符合我們真正的需求"},{"start":7101.48,"end":7122.974,"text":"所以這個部分呢就讓這個我們的部長還有我們的所有的委員希望在審查條文的時候能夠跟委員報告我們沒有要搶經濟部有關於產業的輔導發展我們國防部就是對我們要軍用的武器我們要進行採購就這麼簡單啊各位委員的意見是不是說"},{"start":7129.258,"end":7147.24,"text":"我們要的軍用的裝備的採購要交給經濟部然後由經濟部編列預算然後由經濟部來理解如何的武器採購符合作戰需求如果不是的話那就是兩件事一件事就是我們所要的軍備由我們國防部"},{"start":7148.157,"end":7168.33,"text":"依照我們的作戰需求我們來進行採取那至於這個產業的輔導部長因為你現在不要現在不要把兩件事情把它弄成一件事情嘛我們提的是一個特別條例我們要有一個特別預算我們很簡單的目的就是要符合我們作戰需求的一個國民黨團的改革啊你連看國民黨團的版本的條你連看都沒有看你是主辦機關啊沒有說整個預算要背在經濟部沒有啊"},{"start":7178.457,"end":7189.423,"text":"不要隨便亂發言你連看條文都沒有看那現在請問一下在5條跟16條所編所相關的條文裡面哪些部分是國安部"},{"start":7191.052,"end":7214.187,"text":"我們條文可以討論 但是在這邊寫得很清楚 主辦機關是國防部那我覺得就是說 國防採購是一件事 產業的發展輔導是一件事兩件事情最好不要把它放在一起 我們並不知道如何來現在行政院在推動的就是這樣"},{"start":7214.887,"end":7236.989,"text":"而且現在行政院在推動的就是就是如同民眾黨團的版本跟國民黨團的版本是一樣的好這個 張偉張偉結束了結束了好好我們謝謝鄭天祥委員接下來我們請這個楊瓊瑩委員"},{"start":7245.936,"end":7249.71,"text":"谢谢主席杨琼发言邀请经济部跟国防部"},{"start":7257.855,"end":7279.845,"text":"市長我們今天是看到行政院提出了國防自主無人載具採購特別條例那重點是聚焦在國防採購那相較之下國民黨跟民眾黨那所提出的也就還有其他委員所提出國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案"},{"start":7282.046,"end":7302.163,"text":"所強調的是國防需求之外 更要將經濟部納入為主管機關單位那要求推動無人機產業聚落 中小企業輔助供應鏈的安全 以及軍民共用測試場 以及國產化的目標"},{"start":7302.984,"end":7321.643,"text":"那最重要的我們還要建立年度的成果檢討機制使無人機的政策它不是只有增加國防的戰力它還能夠成為帶動整個產業升級的新引擎所以本席要特別提出台中具備了精密機械產業聚落"},{"start":7327.088,"end":7347.653,"text":"航太林組件製造的能量以及完整的供應鏈的一個基礎以身具有發展無人機產業的重要條件那政府在推動整個無人機的政策應該要優先的來做整合具有的產業優勢"},{"start":7349.953,"end":7354.734,"text":"讓具體具備製作實力的台中市來成為國防自主的供應鏈的一個供應核心所以請教兩位那未來我們在推動無人機的這個產業聚落以及軍民共用測試場域時是不是會先整合這些具備相關條件這第一個"},{"start":7378.781,"end":7402.5,"text":"同時台中是最具備的那麼是不是會將台中這個既有的精密機械與航太產業的這個基礎納入優先佈局讓台中成為打造國家的無人機產業的一個重鎮 請做說明跟委員報告 確實台中在精密機械智慧加工這方面"},{"start":7403.42,"end":7418.83,"text":"具有領導領先的一個地位那我們現在看全國的這個無人機發展的一個聚落分布的狀況其實北中南都各有特色那我想中部地區本來底氣就非常非常足底氣非常足底氣非常足那現在聯盟的場"},{"start":7422.412,"end":7448.959,"text":"的這個主席也是我們漢翔的這個曹董事長對所以我想就從這邊就可以看得出來我們過去在這個民用航空還有軍用這個教練機這個部分本來就有很好的一個發展的基礎所以我想過去我們在做產業輔導的部分尤其在中部地區的智慧這個機械的部分我們投入非常非常的多所以很顯然就是未來無人機產業的一個發展"},{"start":7450.924,"end":7452.818,"text":"台中一定會扮演很重要的一個角色"},{"start":7453.626,"end":7480.433,"text":"謝謝你的台中扮演重要角色他是重中之重尤其之前總統先生也來到我們暗巷原地那麼大家在那邊做了一個很好的一個這個了解跟溝通無人機產業目前這些廠家他們所碰到的問題需要政府的協助以及他們的優勢可以跟世界接軌在我們當地可以產生出來的這些都在當天討論得非常的詳細"},{"start":7482.654,"end":7506.825,"text":"所以來請教部長今天我們討論的這個條例那我想大家都希望無人機在台灣是能夠成為產業轉型非常重要的一個契機點除了國防安全之外發展整個我們無人機的產業邁向全世界這是一個非常重要的一個關鍵您的看法呢"},{"start":7507.706,"end":7524,"text":"跟委員報告,我想我們現在這個無人載具在地的這個能量是相當的高的我想我就可以以中科院為例,事實上中科院所研製的這些相關的這些它很大部分的比例都是在地"},{"start":7524.88,"end":7539.27,"text":"的廠商能夠提供的那所以我們認為這些無人載具如果再進一步藉由國防部的這樣子的一個需求因為我們作為最大的需求單位我們應該有責任來提出這樣子的一個"},{"start":7541.031,"end":7556.356,"text":"相當常比較常識然後長單然後能夠讓廠商願意再進一步來投資然後願意進一步再來迭代更新是 知道他是有願景的嘛是不是我謝謝部長你的回答齁那在院會交付"},{"start":7560.237,"end":7566.721,"text":"這個條例呢由這個經濟部經濟委員會財政委員會以及國防委員會來做審議我覺得這是非常正確的一個方向從剛剛兩位所回答我們不只是要增加國防的力道我們更要推動這個產業邁向全世界那麼我們也知道在剛剛兩位回答當中台中"},{"start":7585.331,"end":7598.654,"text":"中部地區在整個大渡山的黃金重股他是非常具備的他是非常具備所以我也在這邊要具體要求一定要將台中這一些產業的部落第一個先做整合的工作第二個讓他們陳如部長剛才所說的讓他們知道這個願景他們願意投資政府做他們最大的一個後盾那當然這個後盾的重要的"},{"start":7613.618,"end":7620.762,"text":"原則也就是我們必須要有法律定制產業條例出來之後讓他們真正的放心大家合作團結一致來帶動推動整個無人機的一個產業這也是本席一直在吶喊的我們台中準備好了請政府一定要重視而且全力的來推動對不對"},{"start":7637.101,"end":7652.966,"text":"謝謝委員的發言那我想國安部有國安部的職責經濟部有經濟部職責經濟部職責者是做產業的輔導發展國安部的職責就是提出我們的需求那我們是最知道我們的作戰需求的所以我們只是希望我們只是希望說將我們的採購的部分我們用特別條例的這個部分是能夠放一塊至於產業發展的部分要怎麼去進行"},{"start":7663.689,"end":7688.408,"text":"那這個部分或者是由經濟部提出需要或者要列入條例這個我想是另外一塊但我們國防部是希望我們的採購就是由我們國防部來主導我們國防部才知道我們最最大最好的一個作戰需求嘛那也就是說我們國防部編預算這個預算是用來採購我們買米跟買醬油的錢不要把它混在一台我們"},{"start":7689.269,"end":7705.631,"text":"我們就是拿來買我們所需要的裝備部長 你就否決剛剛你第一階段的一個回答所以我在這邊還是具體三方合作能夠達到最高的一個效能我們一定會跟經濟部好好合作"},{"start":7706.252,"end":7708.875,"text":"合作包括了我們之前所說的442億在各方的整合剛剛我也聽到國防部跟經濟部你們有做對接的一個工作這就是為什麼我們要副委到三個委員會很重要我們除了買"},{"start":7725.11,"end":7727.071,"text":"國防部提出需求更重要的是我們當地的產業它必須能夠落點在我們這邊發揮出來台灣製造這非常的重要這也是帶動整個產業的一個重大革命也是我們邁向全世界產業發展好 那這個議題到此我要請教這個經濟部來 國防部你請回"},{"start":7751.94,"end":7780.137,"text":"部長 昨天我們審查預算我們特別也針對AI的這個部分但是我們看到在台灣金融研究所的這個金融穩定研究中心的陳主任他說除了AI快速的這個發展也帶來了產業的一個契機但是也讓中小企業面臨到更大的一個轉型更大的一個轉型所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到中小企業他必須要做什麼他必須要融資貸款"},{"start":7781.418,"end":7796.734,"text":"但是目前還是著重 在整個擔保品財務報表以及塑性的模式還是依照以前但是現在的產業不一樣 甚至政府要提出了微中小型1000億的這個預算要來輔導整個中小企業我昨天也特別說了 因為現在的產業發展完全不一樣"},{"start":7804.762,"end":7819.359,"text":"甚至有藝人公司他自己在家可以創造很大的一個產值因為AI整個的體系的一個轉變所以在融資方面如果你沒有協助中小企業的話他只能夠到高貸款"},{"start":7821.141,"end":7829.608,"text":"利息的部分那你增加整個中小企業的一個成本壓力或許在這個過程當中沒有那麼順暢的時候會衍生影響到什麼呢到他創造的契機會失掉了在這樣的情況之下我具體要求"},{"start":7840.656,"end":7867.374,"text":"經濟部你既然要推出也是本席一直吶喊支持中小企業他達到了我們八成的就業率沒有理由不照顧我們的中小企業那在貸款受信的部分你應當要跟金管會等單位去研議怎麼樣簡化怎麼樣讓我們的中小企業他是真正的能夠貸款的到而不是口惠而不實而不是只看得到這個"},{"start":7869.075,"end":7874.12,"text":"這個吃不到請做說明你怎麼做調整確實如同委員所講的中小企業在資金的需求上面常會面臨到這個單薄餅不足或是說他的這個營業額可能會有一些波動這樣的一些影響環境改變嘛產業的產業的特性也改變整個供應鏈也重組所以可能面臨到種種的一些壓力所以"},{"start":7893.039,"end":7910.057,"text":"最重要就是說我怎麼樣能夠增加中小企業的這個保證能量能夠讓中小企業到銀行去借款的時候政府做他的靠山啊國家的擔保政府來做靠山這個部分我想這也是總統跟院長特別在指示我們中小為企業升級轉型發展條例裡面我們怎麼樣從這個"},{"start":7914.041,"end":7920.287,"text":"這些升級轉型的這些中小企業的需求上面我們提供這些更多的保證的時間因為這個延續到有將近170億萬家有將近到900多萬的就業人口"},{"start":7930.566,"end":7952.936,"text":"是 所以我們現在就是要提升保證的這個層數那另外剛剛委員提到提升保證的層數提升保證的層數 第二個就是從優從速從簡從優從速從簡來解決這些中小企業融資不便的問題你多久時間可以告訴我們中小企業因為這維繫著整個經濟核心的中小企業大概佔我們台灣產值的八成對"},{"start":7954.496,"end":7978.33,"text":"是請教你多久時間可以告訴我們你要提升保值的成數什麼時候告訴我們你要預計要提升幾成現在信保基金的保證成數已經都可以拉到像有一些政策性的專案貸款有可以多到九成九成或是九成五所以這樣的一個高保證成數都可以來特別為一些那個是特定嗎你不是這700這個171"},{"start":7980.891,"end":8005.497,"text":"沒有一些中小企業的這個貸款你把你的方案請提出來好不好是 現在已經有這樣一個中小企業的貸款因為我現在就是告訴你嘛懲刑案非常的多我貸不到嘛 對不對所以請你把方案提出來好不好保證成數已經拉高請你把方案提出來也去檢視你目前的樣態好不好全力的照顧我們的中小企業真正可以貸的到款好不好 謝謝好 謝謝王謝謝楊瓊英委員"},{"start":8008.658,"end":8024.105,"text":"那待會的議定委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘好那接下來我們請王逸川委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請經濟部次長還有國防部顧部長請經濟部和次跟顧部長王委員"},{"start":8032.284,"end":8045.694,"text":"好 我先請教經濟部這一次國民黨跟民眾黨提出來的相關的版本有哪一些條文哪一些精神是你們可以納進去或者說你們已經在做或者在這個統籌型計畫裡頭你們已經在執行了是"},{"start":8050.619,"end":8055.36,"text":"跟委員報告那也謝謝國民黨跟民眾黨的黨團他們對無人機產業輔導的這個重視那其實這一部分的一些內容我們在無人機產業發展的統修型計畫裡面都已經納進來了而且這是跨部位的合作"},{"start":8069.344,"end":8080.091,"text":"那也就是說我們許多的一些輔導的工作是由經濟部來主導但是有很多的配套包括資安包括我們需要飛行的這個場域的測試還有相關的這些評估是相關的一些這個規範這些都是由相關部會簡單講就是說這個兩黨提出來的這些版本相關的精神或者是提出來的做法"},{"start":8096.681,"end":8120.712,"text":"已經都在你們經濟部在統籌型計畫裡頭都涵蓋進來啦 是這樣代表你們過去做的我們沒有信心人家有信心看有統籌型計畫他們就不會提啦所以這個還要再努力不然人家說你們輔導做得不好 什麼做得不好這個要加油 請問現在整機的出口"},{"start":8121.552,"end":8126.779,"text":"大家看到我們去年是0.93沒關係這數字都知道我的意思是說既然這兩個黨提出來的版本有些條文啊如果你們認為這個應該要更加強在你們統籌型計畫或後續推動你們有很多的聯盟嘛大家就會來推動的時候"},{"start":8141.156,"end":8152.843,"text":"把他放進去讓國民黨跟民眾黨可以放心這不會說看起來沒信心所以提這個要把他法治化這第一個第二個 次長我再請教這秋霜啊買的是頂端還是要補助啊到人家開公司 說我這間公司開了就是要捏補助的"},{"start":8161.38,"end":8163.382,"text":"其實應該是說有穩定的訂單然後看得到的訂單 這個我想現在是廠商最需要的然後穩定的訂單 或者是顧部長提到這個長單這有出來之後 他可能也會去融資導租新的設備"},{"start":8179.456,"end":8191.539,"text":"新的廠房 它才有信心嘛啊你如果是說一年一年變四百億啊 大家就說有時候有 有時候沒有有時候清不掉 有時候清不掉啊 有時候二十年到九年都還沒過啊 還沒年代過喔 這樣很不穩定的情況之下 現在中小企業你要叫六十下去去跟他們借錢 他們可能也緊張緊張啦"},{"start":8205.802,"end":8212,"text":"好 所以這個穩定的這個訂單啊我相信是比較重要的好 我接著請到公安部"},{"start":8212.967,"end":8238.438,"text":"柏廷啊 你們這一個條例裡頭很明確很明確你們就是要採購三件事情 堅真型無人機 濱海攻擊型無人機 小型自殺無人艇就是三大類別嘛 對不對是好 那這一些跟我們前一陣子啊 1.25兆的這個條例裡頭被砍掉的那四千多億有沒有相關啊"},{"start":8239.993,"end":8265.305,"text":"我們原來確實是有在我們的特別前次的特別條例裡面有編列要採購的這些相關的國安自主無人載具的這個項目就包括特別是在自主的這個部分那有一些我們會編列在其他的包括我們今年的年度預算跟追加預算裡面"},{"start":8266.805,"end":8292.35,"text":"但就明年的年度預算或者是今年度預算我們會再來嚴釐相關部分但是我們對於這些能夠創造國防自主振興的一個產業鏈的建構我們認為用特別預算的方式是比較適合部長這個上次砍掉的那些無人機的錢我相信韓國瑜院長不管帶團到英國法國帶團到美國"},{"start":8295.991,"end":8321.772,"text":"所有國外的這些國會議員包括他們的相關的部門啊都在問台灣被砍掉的那些無人機相關無人載具的預算什麼時候會補回來這個在場的不管是個哪一個政黨去的代表都說會會會所以你們提了這2100億大概就是要把這件事情補回來我這樣講有錯嗎"},{"start":8324.75,"end":8350.338,"text":"特別是就我們能夠建立一個自主的飛鴻供應鏈的這一塊我們要把它補回來好那今天這個國民黨有提出了一個版本那那個版本裡頭大概它也有一部分是說要採購的有一部分是要發展產業還有兩種錢混在一起談這如果版本通過國安部叫經濟部"},{"start":8351.994,"end":8373.838,"text":"你們有辦法變醫生嗎 你們要怎麼分啊2400除以2等於1200 或是2400這個你們有想法嗎 或是這個通過了你真的沒辦法處理因為你們2100億很明確就是那三類你們會算出2100億就那三類各採購多少你們算過大概預算才會跑出2100億這個數字嘛"},{"start":8376.604,"end":8397.464,"text":"那現在如果通過是這2400億包括這些產業的,不然你跟國人說一下,這如果真的通過就對了,就跟國民黨的班分通過了這要不然去到國安部的時候,國安部會跟行政院什麼建議,行政院說你跟歐洲變異性的時候,你會怎麼樣來處理這些顆粒"},{"start":8402.438,"end":8419.533,"text":"我當然第一個是認為就是說在立法上面裡面匡列然後限制說我們所有的無人載具就是也包括居民共用測試場域還有什麼產業聚落集中小企業特別服務等等"},{"start":8420.233,"end":8448.704,"text":"就是限定在400億這個部分一年400億然後一年的400億然後將他匡列在這個條例裡面並不是一個適切的做法因為要怎麼樣編列預算來納入如果是要納入年度預算的話那年度預算的這個規模每年都不一樣那有多少的部分要分配到我們國防部的國防預算裡面那也要依據我們的作戰的需求來加以來考量編列"},{"start":8449.284,"end":8465.676,"text":"那現在說一個400億但是他也沒有講得很清楚說這400億哪些部分的資用的一個像這剛剛講的那三個項目到底應該是哪些佔多少錢他並沒有說明得非常的清楚那這樣子的話那我覺得"},{"start":8472.216,"end":8481.755,"text":"我覺得最大的問題應該是說我們每年的所有的國防自主的無人載具會隨著時代的演進會有很大的不同我舉個例子我們現在2114包括"},{"start":8484.641,"end":8510.897,"text":"這個三型也就是兩款的無人機一款的自殺無人艇對不對但我們接下來可能還有地面的無人載具我們還有水下的無人載具這些如果都在這個國民黨的自主的無人載具的科技法案跟採購條例裡面他就限縮你所有的無人載具就只有這些那還要跟經濟部去協調來做分配我覺得無論如何"},{"start":8512.352,"end":8533.03,"text":"沒有辦法能夠切切的去展望我們未來能夠執行會有真的會有自然難行的部分那採購的部分我們現在提出光不是提出就是他比較明確就是這見證型的攻擊型的無人機跟無人艇"},{"start":8533.57,"end":8558.108,"text":"那就這個部分我們就把它很明確的匡列住嘛那但是無人載具的部分的發展是日新月異的像我們現在也同時也要用小批量採購來驗證地面的無人載具我們現在也在進行研發這個水下無人載具那這個部分沒有辦法被限制住啦我覺得立法院也不宜限制住行政院編列的預算的權利"},{"start":8559.229,"end":8565.151,"text":"好 我想今天你在這邊的答詢 包括韓國瑜院長 撮團去參加過的這些人都知道啦那同時跟答應什麼東西 跟承諾什麼東西 跟保證什麼東西這個國家大家都在看啦 美國也在看 英國也在看 法國也在看包括中國也在看"},{"start":8581.076,"end":8606.744,"text":"所以我想今天國安部的立場非常清楚就是兩千一百億來採購這三類無人載具的這一些裝備、設備來充實我們的國防實力那請國安部繼續加油阿你那個經濟部齁,人家在問你,你如果卡卡的,對你沒信心說要再編一些立法起來齁,這個你們要加油"},{"start":8607.264,"end":8617.572,"text":"好不好不然大家說要互倒該互倒這樣不好這個繼續加油好不好好謝謝好謝謝王逸川委員接下來有請劉玉琳委員質詢謝謝主席請經濟部的何次長國防部的顧部長還有國發會的蕭處長"},{"start":8639.005,"end":8662.805,"text":"何市長本席在這邊很懷疑 今天我們的工部長沒有來今天我們要討論的是無人載具產業的發展這跟我們經濟部有高度的相關反正我們經濟部長沒有來 反正是我們國防部長有出席很多人在說無人機的採購不關經濟部的事所以本席在這邊一定要提一下"},{"start":8663.746,"end":8684.198,"text":"我們有個台灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟成立的宗旨是要促進台灣無人機產業的發展鄰居者共識展現無人機產業的決心推動國際的合作以市場拓展建立非紅供應鏈何市長這個聯盟是誰在推動的"},{"start":8690.618,"end":8709.42,"text":"是誰推動的這個目前聯盟的主席是這個漢翔是誰推動的是我們經濟部推動的我們經濟部在支持就是我們經濟部推動的所以主管機關由經濟部來統籌有什麼錯呢而且在這個無能載具這個產業我們經濟部是走了非常前面的站在無能機"},{"start":8710.781,"end":8734.56,"text":"這個無人載具這個產業的發展的立場我們當然是由經濟部來主管而且我們這個部分的話不只是軍用還有商用甚至我們要推向國際這只有經濟部的統籌才可以做得到甚至於說採購的部分當然有主管機關就是由於各自身有需要你們就去採購 對不對"},{"start":8736.502,"end":8750.641,"text":"跟委員報告其實經濟部負責產業輔導有需要的人就去採購嘛那現在產業界需要的他是需要一個穩定的訂單我們目前國內的這個無人機產業其實在技術能力上面我先請教你當然要訂單啊"},{"start":8752.243,"end":8766.95,"text":"剛剛有提到我們國內的產業有260幾家所以我本心要問你自己都提到了那請問一下我們有沒有訂定這個軍用無人載具的採購國產化的比例目標有訂定出來嗎"},{"start":8768.29,"end":8791.447,"text":"目前來講我們是有對未來這個我們整個技術發展的一個軌跡啊藍圖的部分我們有設定因為國內還是有一些這樣子可以保障我們國內的產業嗎實質的保障嗎所以透過我們的這個這個缺口是哪部分技術包括一些我們的這個比方飛控飛控系統地面導控系統籌載系統通訊系統"},{"start":8793.949,"end":8814.478,"text":"所以這樣子就可以對我們國內的無人載具的供應鏈有發展上的保障嗎當然 當然 我們需要把整個區域你只要實質上的保障 我們產業才能夠在這方面做出民間的投資因為我們需要的是一個非紅供應鏈所有的零組件都一定要是在地"},{"start":8815.459,"end":8834.941,"text":"MIT的這個產品是好那我想請問一下那這樣子的話我們知道這個無人載具的最重要的原料就是稀土對不對在這個稀土出口的國家我們去買的吧出口國家大部分九成都在中國大陸我知道你們現在開始就跟美國"},{"start":8836.302,"end":8862.758,"text":"還有這個澳洲來採購了還有就是公園院也會將稀土的回收計畫讓我們的在稀土上有那個自給率的問題這自給率你們有沒有訂出來我們希望能夠在這個2030年齁能夠達到這個五成的這個自給率也就是說 多少 你們有訂嗎五成的自給率五成大概多少公斤大概1500這個"},{"start":8869.04,"end":8886.076,"text":"所以你有1500就這個量就夠我們戰備出用了目前其實還有一些跟美國跟這個澳洲這邊的一些合作這個未來我們在稀土的這個需求上面是應該在供給的部分應該是不會有太大問題"},{"start":8887.745,"end":8903.301,"text":"有關稀土的這個部分在無人機的一個部分是不是請總編從技術面稍微回答一下好 您請說其實在無人機上用到稀土的部分真的比較少其實我們用的副材反而是比較多"},{"start":8903.801,"end":8924.163,"text":"那這個負財技術在國內其實不管是金工中心也好或是中分業也好還有很多廠商也好他都有在做發展那稀土的部分可能都是在馬達的部分在跟石有關的部分那這個部分國內的確就是我們剛剛經濟部和市長講的比例其實就是我們要去滿足這一部分的需求是這樣子"},{"start":8925.037,"end":8948.946,"text":"所以你這樣講的話稀土用量很少但是戰備的儲存我們還是要準備值的所以你的1500這個部分也要儲存著那但是剛剛我們國防部這邊來講到的話那表示說如果我們如果建軍備戰有迫切性跟那個時效性的話你們就會改用國外的是不是採購國外的"},{"start":8950.066,"end":8979.546,"text":"沒有因為我們跟經濟部合作剛剛經濟部也一直講我們對於我們缺口的部分都有做一些盤點那事實上我們採取這個特別預算也就是著重在國防自主的產業鏈的建構上面我們有很大的信心相當大的比例都是屬於國內可以自主的但是還是有一些剛剛提到的比如說可能是非控通訊或者看干擾的這個部分還需要跟國外但是不能跟中國也就跟國外再做一些技術合作那最好這些技術能夠移轉"},{"start":8980.166,"end":9000.919,"text":"那這樣的話我們透過我們的需求來提又透過迭代創新來不斷的提升我們國內在無人機上面的能力那也這樣同時才能夠打入這個國際的供應鏈裡面所以顧部長你放心因為我們經濟部合走了很前面的都未從有這個商機的聯盟他的聯盟宗旨最重要最後一點就講到"},{"start":9002,"end":9017.655,"text":"要建立非紅的產業鏈所以不會有大陸的你放心那所有不足的地方我們還是需要往外採購啦但是何市長您答應的就是在國內的產業裡面我們有個走向哪些部分的話國內有的我們一定要在國內來採購好不好"},{"start":9020.057,"end":9035.682,"text":"剛剛我跟委員修正一下是公噸是噸公噸對我等你的單位數出來現在目前是1500公噸1500公噸就是我們儲備的戰略物資未來就是2022年所以1500公噸這不算少是是是顧部長這個稀土的需求也不算少"},{"start":9037.243,"end":9058.561,"text":"所以我們當然都要配合我說我們在無人機的部分我想我們的需求並不高那我們也盡量包括一些電池或者引擎的部分我們盡量去在國內然後我們也盡量去減少對稀土的這些依賴的一些技術的發展所以國內有的不要隨便改到國外去購買好不好 這要注意的"},{"start":9059.161,"end":9067.104,"text":"好那接下來要問的就是我們國發基金國發基金裡面我們現在已經有7加2的這個國發基金的專案項目那我們要發展輔導我們的產業能夠引領他來參加我們的民營來投資的話在這個無人機這個部分的話我們國發基金要不要編列專案基金"},{"start":9081.728,"end":9109.624,"text":"跟委員報告在無人機的這一個部分是國發基金目前在這個直接投資創投跟剛所提到7加2的這個百億的基金都可以來投資所以我們不要再加一項怎麼十項用無人機這個部分啊都可以來投所以要不要加一項無人機的這個專案呢這個我們來研究來研議一下百億的基金讓我們的民間投資更有信心好不好好的謝謝"},{"start":9113.854,"end":9117.384,"text":"好 我們謝謝李議員委員那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9371.381,"end":9372.824,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":9402.612,"end":9402.693,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9719.599,"end":9720.213,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":9775.906,"end":9779.991,"text":"好 我們現在會議繼續進行接下來我們請林楚英委員質詢"},{"start":9790.753,"end":9808.92,"text":"謝謝主席因為時間有限那我就請國防部長然後經濟部次長還有我們主計處的代表官員那如果有需要回應的就一起上台謝謝好有請國安部經濟部跟主計部長好那個我請下一張"},{"start":9811.297,"end":9831.319,"text":"早上其實提案說明的時候我已經講得非常清楚了就是這一次我們的提案包括我本人以及行政院的提案都是為了補足我們在國防戰力上面尤其是在無人載具上面的這個所謂國防自主的部分那麼我們當然知道也感謝主席非常快的就已經進入排成"},{"start":9833.001,"end":9857.731,"text":"但是我必須要講國防自主跟產業發展這兩個它是合作無間但是首重我相信這一次會有這個條例就是要國防自主剛剛我一早在做提案說明的時候我也講了如果現在把主責的機關變成是經濟部的話那就表示未來在國防自主的這一塊尤其是無人載具的部分的發展是由經濟部來領導國防部嗎那麼這個沒有本末倒置嗎"},{"start":9862.003,"end":9880.59,"text":"我想請顧部長我想我們已經一再的說明就是說經濟部可以為了產業的發展來進行相關的輔導跟補助但是國防部本身所需要的這個符合作戰需求的軍事裝備的採購"},{"start":9883.254,"end":9911.026,"text":"我想這應該毫無疑問是由國防部來主管然後來國防部我們這一次是提出特別條例那其他兩個部分是條例那我想特別條例的目的是為了要進一步再提出特別預算案來到大院來審查所以我想這兩個完全不宜是放在一起那也就是我們還是希望我們國防部的這個採購很標的很明確符合我們作戰需求長年期長單的規劃能夠"},{"start":9913.207,"end":9935.793,"text":"建立我們國防自主的排紅的供應鏈那這個部分就是我們國防部來主管的好所以言下之意就是如果真的主管機關是經濟部然後經濟部是必要的時候來召會國防部那就會變得很奇怪我們知道我們很多國防採購甚至於還包含有機密性那麼就會變成是經濟部上級指導國防部的採購或者是管採購的預算包括"},{"start":9942.176,"end":9945.399,"text":"這個未來我們在比較屬於機密跟測試的時候經濟部有辦法比如說我們國防需求的採購的部分包括測試我就請問經濟部次長"},{"start":9954.437,"end":9958.359,"text":"你有辦法去採購這種採購的過程當中包括還要測試還要使用那是經濟部的官員到營區去使用這些無人載具來驗收嗎還是你們要委託或者是你們指導國防部的這些將官將領們幫你們驗收這個會不會有權責上面的問題"},{"start":9979.07,"end":9995.154,"text":"這當然會有權色上的問題那目前的分工就是國安部他提出採購的需求那當然經濟部這邊基於產業發展的需要那配合國安部建軍的要求那他有一些技術可能需要經濟部來輔導產業的話那我們就會透過我們的科技專案"},{"start":10000.315,"end":10023.194,"text":"來協助業者來開發國防部所需要的這些相關的技術所以我想國防部跟經濟部過去我們一直以來我們對這個國防採購的一些相關的一些合作怎麼樣把軍民的通用的這相關的一些無人機的這個技術能夠你現在講的是軍民通用嗎那我就請問你啊"},{"start":10024.335,"end":10036.772,"text":"所以接下來你願意你要當主責機關嗎到時候你這個不會造成你在所謂現在條例過關之後如果按照在野黨的版本而不是行政院的版本那麼這不會有權責不分的問題嗎包括你真的要成為"},{"start":10041.298,"end":10061.062,"text":"國防部的太少華未來這個所謂的驗收是由經濟部為了要主導權責所以進入這個指揮我們國軍來做驗收嗎是這樣嗎經濟部不會是擔任主管機關那因為這個部分還是國防部那邊他基於他建軍的需求基於國防自主的這個需求"},{"start":10062.022,"end":10085.151,"text":"所提出來的採購案所以我想經濟部是全力來配合這個產業來提供這個相關的這個技術研發的這個補助能夠讓我們的台灣的產業他能夠配合這個供應的自主在地的這個採購這樣的一個需求好 言下之意就是經濟部就是管經濟發展管產業發展他不可能管到國防這一塊對不對"},{"start":10086.391,"end":10108.919,"text":"好 我們來看下一張另外一個本席提出來的問題就是有關於預算的部分剛剛部長講得很清楚為什麼要特別預算就是我想以這個最新的這個朝野協商我手上這個是上個禮拜最新的朝野協商啦就講到了我們到現在還在審今年度的總預算如果按照在野黨的版本每年編400億"},{"start":10111.38,"end":10121.648,"text":"那我就問 你是坑殺業者還是扶植產業像現在喔 已經到七月了哪一個廠商可以承受 到七月的預算還沒有下來所以這個是叫廠商自己墊錢嗎我跟你說 沒有訂單 銀行不會給你借錢啦訂單沒有下來 錢沒有下來幾百億的東西 要廠商自己吞嗎我就問 今天最新的一個報導講了就是"},{"start":10137.859,"end":10164.556,"text":"北京傳了三原則這三原則是以民代軍實成彈性釋出供應鏈的機會所以我就問經濟部跟國防部以這種所謂年度400億來編業者敢投入嗎七月了預算都還沒過那我再問如果是按照在野黨這種400億的版本放在年度預算請問現在要怎麼編下年度的預算我請問國防部跟經濟部這不荒謬嗎"},{"start":10169.144,"end":10181.773,"text":"我們已經一再的說明就是說我們提出來的這個部分是因為我們認為國內有這樣的一個自主能量然後我們必須要有這樣子的一個產業鏈才能夠具備暫時擴產的這個能量跟這個韌性所以才會提出這樣的一個"},{"start":10187.467,"end":10206.946,"text":"特別條例然後進一步提出特別預算年度預算的部分我們始終沒有辦法能夠確確的去掌握下一年度的這個預算的情況那所以從我們需求的最大的需求的單位來講我們提出一個長單嘛"},{"start":10209.462,"end":10213.285,"text":"但是這個長單但是問題如果說現在這個長單是用每年400億400億在以立法院現在這個狀況全台灣民眾全部的業者都知道2026年的預算到現在7月了還沒審8月不知道能不能過關我就問經濟部次長這樣的業者敢投入嗎有保障嗎"},{"start":10235.1,"end":10255.006,"text":"是這也是我們擔心的我們是希望說有特別預算他可以穩定而且是有一個長期的一個預算的承諾能夠讓業者他可以有一個長期的訂單可以來保障他們未來來投入研發或是在投資上面他們可以看得到未來"},{"start":10255.646,"end":10283.924,"text":"所以為什麼我們不建立把它放在公務預算因為公務預算會有排擠而且會有剛剛委員提到審查時間上的一個延宕所以對業者來講可能都是未來會是投資的風險好 我相信在野都支持無人載具的發展但是不要原本是要扶植產業變成坑殺業者在這裡我也提醒經濟部要非常注意不要讓業者血本無歸因為業者"},{"start":10285.445,"end":10303.032,"text":"幾百家都在等著看 好不好是 謝謝好 謝謝林竹英委員接下來我們有請其實行政院本來就不需要特別立法再講到說要年度預算這樣好 謝謝接下來我們有請這個劉書斌委員質詢"},{"start":10315.359,"end":10326.591,"text":"好 有請國防部長 經濟部次長還有國發基金的執行長好 請經濟部 國防部跟國發基金是 劉委員好"},{"start":10327.165,"end":10333.107,"text":"好部長好我們今天來聯席審查國防自主無人載具的特別採購條例那我們看到這是2100億的這個特別預算是以行政院版來講的他希望是建構到不對稱的戰力並打造的飛鴻供應鏈我們都支持但是支持國防自主並不代表要放棄這個"},{"start":10349.953,"end":10357.257,"text":"預算的監督 我們更關心的是是不是能夠有自主的這樣韌性的無人機產業那我們現在知道的話是目前的無人機呢產業台灣在台灣部分呢有世界級的半導體資通訊還有PCB的極光電供應鏈的這個優勢但是在高效率的馬達電子變速器還有高能量的密度電池以及"},{"start":10376.266,"end":10402.91,"text":"GNSS抗干擾模組的關鍵零組件當中能有相當程度是依賴國外供應我們想要問的是請教的是先可能是次長或者是部長那就是在關鍵零組件這邊對於剛才所說的有沒有去做這個零組件的這個關鍵的自主能力的盤點這部分那包括是在馬達ESC還有GNSS的部分"},{"start":10404.128,"end":10426.167,"text":"跟委員報告其實剛剛委員講的很對就是說我們有一些技術的缺口這些技術缺口我們都把它盤點出來而且我們有一個關鍵技術開發的路徑從114年我們就用科技專案來跟業者一起來做開發透過法人、工研院等等那當然國防部這邊他會把需求告訴我們"},{"start":10426.727,"end":10449.58,"text":"那我們也會就國安部需求裡面所必須要求的這些技術關鍵的技術關鍵的零組件的部分如果業界還沒有辦法達到這個程度的話我們就透過這樣的科專補助的機制我們來協助業者來提升能量好 那我請問一下目前的這個國產化的這幾個關鍵技術的國產化的比例是多少"},{"start":10451.279,"end":10475.885,"text":"我們在這個專案報告裡面有提到我們有分小型中型還有大型我們小型的無人機的國產化比例大概七成左右那中型大概六成那大型的話我們大概目前大概只有三成左右的比例好那我們就更更要想要關心的是說中科院的部分也可以因為他的發展也跟在地的產業院的行程又有一些關係可以好那請補充"},{"start":10477.575,"end":10507.135,"text":"我就拿那個我們的近鋒一型攻擊無人機來講它原本在國內的產製的比例是95%只差了5%是通信的部分那這個通信的部分我們也已經輔導國外的廠商落地在台生產了所以它現在的全自製比例就是100%那剛剛委員提到了第一個高能量密度的電池的確在兩年之前這是我們國內比較缺陷的地方但是在經濟部的科專補助之後我們現在其實我們用的高能量電池幾乎都是我們自己的"},{"start":10507.515,"end":10531.151,"text":"另外我們從今年開始也在經濟部的統籌型計畫裡面獲得了10.8億的預算這10.8億都在發展GNSS Denied的技術所以所有人放心我想要更清楚的是說因為在GNSS當然很重要但是在整個條例當中我們好像沒有看到說它的這個研發的還有設計的經費這次有在經費上就沒有在這一次還是在經濟部裡面的"},{"start":10535.034,"end":10555.686,"text":"都編列在我們的統籌型計畫裡面那我們透過科技專案來跟法人還有跟業界來合作好那這樣子可以理解另外我們看到是在遇到因為國防部一直強調說暫時的快速擴產但是如果說我們遇到的是在暫時遇到封鎖的時候這個快速擴產有沒有一些具體的配套措施暫時的能夠擴產的基礎"},{"start":10561.129,"end":10575.714,"text":"就是我們不需要仰賴外部的一個供應因為我們是一個海島型的國家嘛我們的眾生比烏克蘭還要淺所以我們當然要能夠建立在無人採集這一塊能夠完全自主在地生產這是我們的目標那也許還有一些"},{"start":10577.455,"end":10602.863,"text":"尤其有一些高階它也許能量還不足那正是我們用透過這個長年的這個一個長單所以是國外購買的嗎我們長年的長單來促使這個廠商願意跟國外技術合作然後最後能夠落地這就剛剛鍾馗也有提到的這是我們現在想要達到的一些目標那因為這個無人載具的部分都迭代創新的很快"},{"start":10603.543,"end":10609.147,"text":"所以一定要用這個廠單這個效應來促使他願意投入更多但是我現在想到事實上這個國發基金的這個紙密就看到的是一個近年啊看到說國發基金呢他也跟各部會投入到大量的資源到扶植無人機產業但是也發生過一個採購程序跟委託研究案遭到監察院糾正的這個案例啦那請問政府是不是已經有全面的檢討過去這個補助案投資跟採購制度的缺失"},{"start":10634.064,"end":10659.244,"text":"跟委員報告國發基金的這個從投錢的評估投資中的這個審議投後的管理以及這個相關的這個機制都在大院的要求之下我們有提出但是我們現在看到這個案子創未來的科技公司目前還在出現這部分他有沒有退場或者是這些或是已經達到企劃的是不是已經有真正量產這個資料是不是可以跟大家公布"},{"start":10660.256,"end":10664.679,"text":"是我想創未來是幾個具有這個專業的幾個大學教授出來創那當時在這個我們在投資這個這個創未來的過程當中也是經過這個嚴格的審議那覺得說這一個部分對不管是但是上次都沒有過欸因為國防部審查沒有過欸"},{"start":10682.191,"end":10690.537,"text":"這一個部分我們必須要尊重這個國防部他在這個相關的這個驗收這個部分我們比較不便 國發基金比較不便來做評論好 但是你們應該檢討機制啊甚至是不是應該讓他退場就是以後不具備這個條件了"},{"start":10697.853,"end":10723.227,"text":"是我們這個會持續來watch這個部分是不是可以給本席一個報告就是說你們在處理這部分包括國防部在怎麼面對說他到底出現了什麼問題那為什麼可以三次如果說叫國發基金來講的話委管理會是說他們前面是具備這個條件可是最後三次不過這個很誇張了是不是請國防部這邊要針對國防部的部分就是我們是當時就是公開招標嘛"},{"start":10723.527,"end":10742.248,"text":"那公開招標之後他要能夠提出這個驗測能夠通過才能夠我們才會支付這個價錢嘛那他現在依合約他在交貨的時候要驗測然後另外再兩次復驗不過他就會進行解約然後會罰款然後也會沒收旅遊保證金"},{"start":10743.169,"end":10771.658,"text":"好 這個制度看起來是有建立起來的是好的不過簡單的再說一下因為我們本黨裡面的重點就是說他有導入到可信任的分級制度還有包括說有懲罰性的賠償跟落實房幣像剛才部長你有提到說他們因為每次階段性的在如果他們驗收過就是不付費對不對但是他已經延宕了我國的這樣無人機的發展是不是要考慮到說有些賠償的機制當然鼓勵是鼓勵的 是賠償的機制是不是要考慮到"},{"start":10773.018,"end":10782.391,"text":"就1月1月會來進行計法那個他的預期的一個違約金另外他的旅遊保證金會全部沒入"},{"start":10783.937,"end":10807.411,"text":"對 但是那個這個就是已經是讓他有到懲罰的效果了嗎是不是還有叫做這個比較巨額性的就是讓他有懲罰性的一種賠償因為他影響到國家的我想我想這個部分就是依合約來走嘛因為合約的相關的規範已經包括我們沒有支付任何企業的價金啊對 我的意思但是因為他已經延宕了我們無人機發展的"},{"start":10811.417,"end":10831.193,"text":"成果所以這部分我的意思是要有懲罰性的賠償這部分是不是可以在未來契約當中去做考慮我想我們預期的違約金已經在合約裡面已經有寫了然後另外我沒有沒落這個履歷保證金這個應該就是屬於相關的這些賠償的部分"},{"start":10833.041,"end":10833.762,"text":"接下來我們請王定宇委員質詢"},{"start":10870.018,"end":10896.007,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩國防部長請國防部部長是 王偉好 各位早我也請我們主席也上來啦 因為現在我們的法制的問題今天我們在討論的是一個雞兔童龍的問題什麼叫雞兔童龍呢行政院版 也就是國防部版是我們國家"},{"start":10897.605,"end":10915.495,"text":"不對稱戰力 無人機戰力不管是供應鏈的建立或者是戰力的建立所需要的一個採購的特別預算那預算在國防部採購是國防部五年兵整計畫我們的兵力規劃是國防部"},{"start":10916.67,"end":10932.148,"text":"那跟另外有一個無人機的發展條例要發展產業我個人不反對發展產業但這兩個預算編的部會不一樣啊所以基督不同隆總不能是經濟委員會來審預算然後這個預算將來國防部要來執行"},{"start":10935.188,"end":10946.818,"text":"所以行政院版跟藍白在野黨提出的版本本質上就不一樣這本質會凸顯在主管機關不同使用年限不同"},{"start":10949.684,"end":10969.07,"text":"財務採購來物採購總有性質的不同那我相信我從這幾個月在立法院還沒有聽到哪一黨的立委說不用發展無人機的有的是站在經濟面有的站在國防產業有的站在國防戰力大概社會的壓力也不容許立委"},{"start":10970.05,"end":10987.996,"text":"違背國家的利益去反對台灣應該發展無人機總是9萬個就業機會啊總是雙北新竹中張頭那台南高雄這麼多的無人機產業相關的業者新竹的控制元件都在那裡所以今天我要請教部長還有各位的就是"},{"start":10989.301,"end":11014.111,"text":"基於國家的共同利益基於憲法的法制我們是立法院還是要守著憲法的本質不同這樣子該怎麼來執行第一個我們來看光這一條我不知道我們在這個委員會並案審查怎麼可以並案審查行政院版的第二條主管機關是國防部在野黨版本的是經濟部預算編載國防部不會讓經濟部審"},{"start":11018.277,"end":11022.349,"text":"未來的執行規劃也是國防部那如果預算是在經濟部"},{"start":11024.53,"end":11050.475,"text":"你規劃出來的東西要讓國防部執行這很荒謬所以遇到主管機關這一條就決定往下走是什麼版本了如果主管機關是經濟部那國防部的版本整個就等於不見了如果主管機關是經濟部或者按照部會分工他走的是產業發展那跟我們無人機戰力發展就是不一樣的我不曉得部長跟我們謝局長"},{"start":11052.383,"end":11074.157,"text":"有關這一個條文關主管機關你認為要怎麼辦 現在病案審查耶我們怎麼不能這麼多委員會在那邊審查 最後送出委員會又是國防部主管又是經濟部主管 這要怎麼病案審查各位委員報告 我期待的是這樣子啦就是說行政院版的國防部的一個採購的部分那就以國防部為主管機關 然後來通過然後呢"},{"start":11076.698,"end":11100.179,"text":"另外有提出的這個產業發展的部分呢應該要將這個有關要納這個特別涉及到軍用無人載具的這個採購的這個所謂的每年要編列400億元的這個預算能夠拿掉也就是說專注於專注於產業的發展產業發展那也有產業發展我們必須合憲合規去定嘛我現在請教部長"},{"start":11101.872,"end":11118.998,"text":"在病案審查我們今天是大體的討論之前的詢答我也希望我們本會的同仁黨面對國家需求不管是產業或國家安全這跟黨派無關啦在場的主席 昭偉或者謝一鋒我們老同事你光遇到主管機關這兩條怎麼病案審查"},{"start":11121.6,"end":11136.827,"text":"應該是國防部的行政院版是一個版本這個是發展我們不對稱戰力的應該在樓上301審查要發展無人產業甚至於無人產業不是只有會飛的我看到某一個黨的版本會飛的才算 不會飛的都不算"},{"start":11138.459,"end":11159.73,"text":"那Boston Dynamic那個氏族的無人機人家在紐約都已經在送Uber了所以就是說那個版本在經濟委員會聯審也沒有意見跟你併在一起我就要請教部長一個問題了如果在併案審查的時候把國防部主管機關就那一條就等於行政院版把你拿掉了完全走經濟部版的話國防部會有什麼想法"},{"start":11163.114,"end":11184.936,"text":"就國防部沒辦法接受就是說涉及國防採購的部分呢主管機關是經濟部然後還要會同國防部等等來如何如何國防採購由經濟部主管經濟委員會主審然後教我們國防部怎麼建軍這荒謬啊改天我國防委員會回來排審那個國立大學、私立大學相關的條例好不好"},{"start":11187.104,"end":11213.397,"text":"我們可以黨派不同但憲法是同一套啊立法院行之有年不能因為藍白聯手在1.25兆的國防特別預算把他無人機刪掉了國際盟友華藍國內產業跳腳人民反對民調低落就要演一齣戲演什麼戲我們也有無人機發展條例那趕快弄一個版本你也要國防部的我就偏偏不要你國防部的"},{"start":11215.411,"end":11232.704,"text":"黨派的鬥爭影響到國家利益這個是非常不應該的事情所以我們還是回到基督該怎麼同榮這是可以並存的第一個基於憲法法制還有國家需求本質不同應該分別審查"},{"start":11234.211,"end":11241.243,"text":"國防部行政院版的無人機的特別的採購的條例應該回到國防建軍這一塊透過長期穩定的預算的發展"},{"start":11247.967,"end":11271.227,"text":"來誘發來刺激國內願意投資因為國防採購確實是一筆大訂單那國內的業者願意花私人的資金建構產線符合標準來投標這好事情啊至於經濟委員會或在野黨的同仁希望要訂一個無人機產業的發展也很好啊你就訂一個發展條例嘛但是發展條例我就要提醒了根據我們的憲法"},{"start":11272.438,"end":11292.478,"text":"第70條 立法委員不能編列預算過去有一起編的原因是因為行政單位一起協商一起同意立法院用法律法律案 基金案用各種的案子來做預算增加支出在憲法第70條 釋憲第391號"},{"start":11296.542,"end":11313.088,"text":"通通都告訴你違憲了為什麼一直在玩違憲的東西呢如果經濟委員會要審查無人產業不是無人機喔不是只有飛的才叫無人機喔要審查無人產業的發展條例可以定可以定你不要把預算放進去"},{"start":11314.147,"end":11336.652,"text":"你訂了一個發展的策略的條例去規範行政單位向美國國會要求行政部門他們是總統制的每一年要回來就哪些法案的執行成效向立法院呈報策略的討論這OK如果真的要涉及所謂的2400億每年400億年度預算行政院編列年度預算哪需要特別條例"},{"start":11337.592,"end":11355.659,"text":"行政院編列年度預算本來就是你們編列的權立法權去干涉預算權違憲這是基本的ABC那如果真的要把預算寫進去可以找行政部門一起討論在行政部門協商同意下是可以的所以本期今天用這些時間"},{"start":11357.02,"end":11383.98,"text":"第一個提到就是我們國防部也就行政院版的無人機的條例是攸關國防戰力攸關國防產業攸關台美默契技術移轉如果主管機關不是國防部這個條例就不見了可是如果主管機關要留著國防部我不曉得在經濟委員會你病案審查的話這條文要怎麼審怎麼會放在這裡審這裡面充滿了政治的雜痕斑斑害了國家"},{"start":11385.014,"end":11407.559,"text":"另外一些小 我只是舉例子 瑕疵啊民眾黨版的第二條 定義無人機的條文有無人飛機 無人直升機 無人多旋翼機我建議這一條到時候要適度修改水面下 水面上 無人陀具 氏族無人機還有Humanoid 人型無人機都在這個產業發展 指定這個太過狹隘"},{"start":11408.399,"end":11427.156,"text":"又比方國民黨的要求把他列入年度預算400億一方面違憲 二方面會有排擠效應更重要的是我們原來是一個採購案你把它弄成了聚落測試場域讓採購的額度大幅降低 失去那誘因所以我最後請教部長如果"},{"start":11431.313,"end":11452.994,"text":"在野黨還是硬要只通過他們的版本 等於用國會去編列預算用國會的立法權去侵害憲法明定的所謂的分權分治的行政權的預算編列權那你作為行政團隊的一份子 或現場有沒有行政院的人那樣的法律可以實行嗎 可以附屬嗎"},{"start":11455.757,"end":11475.349,"text":"行政院的年度預算就如剛剛委員所講的就是由行政院來做考量這個預算編列的權是在行政院不宜由立法機關來擬定一個所謂年度預算要編多少錢這樣解釋起來其實按照憲法還違憲那行政院也應該採取不附屬"},{"start":11476.451,"end":11498.342,"text":"因為如果一旦破了這個惡例以後立法院寫法律叫行政院我叫教育部編個三千億弄一間學校不能這樣做這不跟黨派無關這個在我們的憲法的制度裡面它是有明文規定多次的釋憲文而且釋憲文的成立的時間也是在國民黨執政時期至於"},{"start":11499.182,"end":11521.434,"text":"這些要發展條例經濟部分的本席OK你們可以在經濟委員會這邊審查但可能要注意到時事的趨勢現在所謂的無人載具無人平台不會限制只會飛的啦設置意義只會飛的那這個產業大概就少了很大的一塊所以本席覺得遺憾我們也希望未來還有一次的詢答未來還有公聽會在經濟國防這個聯審的會議裡面"},{"start":11526.677,"end":11553.722,"text":"行政院的版本跟在野黨提出有關經濟部的版本本席具體建議委員會到時候不要併案分成兩個案我們還可以符合法制來處理國防部的版本沒有啦剛剛前面的人也講很多了我馬上就講完了這個分案之後屬於國防部的採購的部分可以對金額有意見可以對方向有意見但這個版本應該單獨"},{"start":11555.404,"end":11583.122,"text":"一包來做特別條例的通過至於在野黨提出的無人產業發展包含被阻擋的宗嘉濱的版本或已經通過已經赴委的林柱英版本有關無人產業的版本那是另外一包可以並案來討論而那個並案討論的時候請注意憲法對於預算權規範那這樣兩個同時在這裡審查分成兩個案標並案在一起G2可以同容國家利益可以兼顧是本期具體的建議 謝謝"},{"start":11586.004,"end":11588.466,"text":"接下來我們有請謝依鳳委員好 謝謝主席我想要請我們何市長 顧部長好 我們請經濟部 國防部部長早安 市長早安謝委員"},{"start":11616.673,"end":11644.349,"text":"其實我們去年在審這個我們之前在審因應國際情勢的這個經濟社會跟民生國安任性條例裡面好像也曾經把這個就是說經濟部當作主審那但是其他的預算都放進來對不對那所以其實如果把"},{"start":11645.189,"end":11659.524,"text":"以經濟部為主審 那我相信經濟部也不會太干涉到國防部對於國防自主需求的這樣子的一個規劃那是不是在院會及跨部會的"},{"start":11661.383,"end":11689.198,"text":"的流程上面請問兩位首長有什麼樣子的困難嗎應該不會吧跟委員報告其實無人機這個產業在國內不是現在才開始我們在112年就已經在輔導產業界了目前是因為地緣政治還有國防自主以及飛虹供應鏈在地"},{"start":11690.959,"end":11710.469,"text":"採購建立這個產能的這樣的一個需要國安部他提出了這樣的一個採購的需求那業者他們需要的就是一個穩定長期的一個訂單我想用這個特別預算來這個保證有一個這樣的一個預算的一個支持那讓業者他能夠投入"},{"start":11711.129,"end":11715.271,"text":"這個研發然後進行投資我想這個是我們未來產業它擴大這個規模或是提升產能一個很重要的一個策略我們也是想要藉著這樣子的機會就是全球有一個就是要發展這樣子就是不要購買他們不購買就是中國大陸的"},{"start":11735.059,"end":11754.565,"text":"所以台湾才有这样的机会行政院提出这样的一个特别条例的话就是基于国安部建军的需要由经济部来做产业辅导来协助我们厂商建立这样的那让国防部当所有厂商的第一桶金是不是对不对"},{"start":11755.555,"end":11774.328,"text":"算是所有廠商的第一桶進化廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前當然都已經在發展 發展廠商目前"},{"start":11784.415,"end":11810.061,"text":"國民黨跟民主黨提的版本並不是一個特別條例所以這兩個限制是不一樣的但是顧部長你也必須要了解就是說當台灣要發展這個就是無人機的產業或者無人載具的產業的時候其實在這個肥紅供應鏈裡面我們也面臨到價格的競爭那這過去以來都是經濟部是這個部分的強項"},{"start":11812.561,"end":11841.008,"text":"經濟部你怎麼樣子協助因為現在我們面臨到就是價格的問題你怎麼樣協助業者導入自動化生產還有降低成本而不是只是因為如果只是純粹的軍規的採購的時候當然從顧部長的立場他不會在意這個生產成本是否降低而是他在意是否有辦法交單是不是"},{"start":11841.528,"end":11857.385,"text":"那這個部分你經濟部怎麼協調是我跟委員報告其實非紅供應鏈這個是民主整個民主國家現在普遍面臨到的這樣的一個問題那我們用這個特別預算給予長期的訂單而且給予量"},{"start":11858.106,"end":11876.244,"text":"那這樣的一個做法可以讓我們國內的廠商他在生產無人機的這個成本上面他可以去降低那再加上我們經濟部做一些產業的輔導給予科專預算的這個補助所以在一些產業技術的缺口上面我們把它補齊"},{"start":11877.105,"end":11896.562,"text":"然後再加上有一個產業的規模出現的話那我們的成本就可以去降低所以國防部這個2100億的需求對廠商來講是非常非常重要的對 國防部的需求很重要所以我們要把它整合到經濟部的這個未來產業發展的這個方面嘛所以我們這個統計規劃已經在做產業輔導了還有"},{"start":11899.725,"end":11918.955,"text":"我想要了解就是國科會他所做的報告裡面我們在電池芯的材料關鍵零組件還是高度的依賴進口那這個部分你剛才也講了我們有五成以上的這個保證那你怎麼樣去做"},{"start":11921.28,"end":11932.027,"text":"是 其實我們在電子芯的部分我們也投入很多的一些研發補助然後也透過法人來協助我們國內的產業建築要建立自主"},{"start":11937.031,"end":11954.172,"text":"能力包括一些國內的大廠其實他們在這個電池新的開發上面包括台塑這些公司他們都投入在這個領域上面那我想我們的工研院也在發展這方面的一個電池的一個改善的一個技術特別是那種"},{"start":11954.713,"end":11981.754,"text":"固态电池或是那个快充式的这个电池这些对未来我们这个国防产业的这个需求是大有帮助而且这些技术都是可以我们弯道朝车这个中国大陆的相关的这个技术好那顾部长不好意思就教一下就是台湾的无人机产业它现在面临到就是应用实际应用的这个"},{"start":11982.898,"end":11999.126,"text":"的考驗那我想要請問就是針對國內的這個軍方的採購你如何強化就是作戰需求跟民間研發的對接是否你會仿效美國的複製者的計畫"},{"start":12001.466,"end":12025.556,"text":"跟委員報告我想這樣第一個就是說先就這個我們作戰需求面的部分我們會跟經濟部合作然後來讓這個廠商能夠了解說我們作戰方面的需求大概是什麼這是第一個第二個就是採購之後我們現在也不是說一次就把採購完我們會分年分批採購那在這個分年分批採購的當下我們成立一個平台所以我們每次的這個戰演訓的時候會進行回饋說"},{"start":12028.317,"end":12053.809,"text":"這個好不好用那還有沒有再改進的地方那同時我們也會依據國外可能說二五戰爭他們使用的一個場景實際的場景我會回饋到這個平台上面那這個平台上面我們也會跟進一步那個合作然後包括工業院也好中科院也好他們都可以來就這個平台上面所進行的這些需求面也好然後要缺改面也好我們來進行這樣子的一個"},{"start":12054.629,"end":12069.222,"text":"一個平台的設計然後讓這個廠商理解那如果廠商能夠再快速的進行他們不管是缺改的一個一個更正或者是一個更迭代的一個創新的一個納入那我們就會後續"},{"start":12070.123,"end":12096.39,"text":"我們的採購案裡面他把他放在最有利標裡面他作為一個加分的項目等等這樣子的一個迭代創新才能夠因應無人載具的快速的發展這樣的採購策略但前提是前提是他現在要看得到他明年他還有還有後年還有大後年如果放在年度預算裡面他今年是這樣子那我們就沒有辦法要求有一個迭代創新的要求我們也沒辦法透過長單的規模來讓他願意進行投資"},{"start":12098.991,"end":12119.269,"text":"那對可是你有沒有先給予他們就是長期就是場域的這樣子的一個驗證機會就是軟體這個驗證的機制現在由行政院的層級做跨部會的協調因為這涉及到不是只有國安部經濟部還有交通部其他還有相關各部會都已經在"},{"start":12120.45,"end":12136.891,"text":"因為顧部長你也知道不管是如何在立法院我們就是審過是條例那未來這個預算其實還是由就是行政院來編列然後就是要會同你們各部會那才會決定那所以這個部分"},{"start":12137.672,"end":12162.389,"text":"業者也需要一個實際的場域的還有未來我們怎麼樣子增加就是說無人機使用整個系統性的這樣子的一個問題那我覺得這個部分也要請顧部長就我理解我們國防部參與的行政院層級的在水面的採聚無人機的採聚還有這個甚至水駕駛都在研討這個測試的場域"},{"start":12165.29,"end":12186.615,"text":"其實我還有一點就是關於就是美國國防授權法的889條的限制對於供應鏈的治安合規要求這會增加中小企業營業成本這也要請經濟部來協助好不好因為這個由速發部他們會來好不好經濟部跟速發部是不是對速發部會來做治安的檢查謝謝好謝謝謝伊鳳委員謝謝各機關所長接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":12217.106,"end":12240.004,"text":"主席 再讓委員先進 列席的政務司司長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國防部顧部長 經濟部核次長以及速發部的陳祖密和民航局的何局長同時也請我們中科院的李院長協助部長好 我們請經濟部 國防部 中科院速發"},{"start":12249.95,"end":12275.367,"text":"還有挑鋒是 政委部長 次長 院長 還有主秘及局長今天要談烏克蘭無人載具快速創新供應以及採購機制場域法規解禁要如何助研發我們都知道周偉還有下次的排案我本人的版本要到下一次詢答的時候才有機會做提案說明因此我以下先就我的版本的一些關注角色來先請教一下各位"},{"start":12276.567,"end":12296.056,"text":"部長您剛才提到的就是無人載具的角色我想這個不是只談產業要先能保衛國家才有產業發展才有全球的和國際合作的市場是不是這樣子所以我想一定要符合我們的作戰需求是的那麼你認為在二五戰爭當中烏克蘭能夠扭轉劣勢這個無人載具是關鍵嘛"},{"start":12301.513,"end":12328.762,"text":"是好但是我們都知道在戰爭初期使用伊朗的見證者136改成天竺葵原型來攻擊烏克蘭的是俄羅斯但是為什麼到現在發展後來烏克蘭可以透過無人載具去扭轉整個戰局甚至他可以轟炸敵後的俄羅斯的煉油廠曾經司機開給說不拿領土換停火他有這麼大的底氣甚至傳出"},{"start":12331.021,"end":12353.48,"text":"德國還能夠砸9000萬的歐元他一次買5萬架的無人機這說明什麼一定要先烏克蘭是在對抗軍事威脅求生存之後再採取不對稱戰力降低傷亡才能夠扭轉他人力規模的劣勢這是我們台灣可以學習的經驗所以底下呢我用我跟烏克蘭的交流經驗來跟大家分享"},{"start":12354.1,"end":12371.274,"text":"現在圖片兩個是來自烏克蘭朝野不同政黨的國會議員這位帥氣的男生大男孩他不到30歲他是現任現役軍人他不開會的時候就回到了前線他送給我他們烏克蘭的備章那但是另外這兩位在野黨的女士國會議員他們送我什麼"},{"start":12371.894,"end":12385.543,"text":"不一樣 他們拿槍流彈的彈殼做成的蠟燭送給我他表明說烏克蘭是在這樣的四年漫長的戰爭當中找到自己的生存之道而且還能夠持續地源源不斷地來支援前線 全民來對抗"},{"start":12387.364,"end":12407.404,"text":"所以這次需要朝野共同合作在這裡也跟在場的召委主席和我們不同政黨的國會議員呼籲我們往下看那到底烏克蘭給我們什麼經驗呢首先傳統的軍武它因為是少數在生產期中規模龐大需要上萬個零件你看海昆號你看F16戰機而且技術基本上是壟斷的"},{"start":12408.385,"end":12434.383,"text":"所以先是有優勢的裝備 像我們過去的廣場採購才能籌編預算去對半去 大部分是對外採購但是烏克蘭這邊看到的是什麼是因為戰爭的需求 他們預算投入 產生大量的無人機後續的援助的資金挹注 以周圍單位去更新這才能符合實戰的需求我們來看看這樣的一個不對稱作戰同碩軍備採購的順序的思維也就是說剛剛部長所說的 要先有訂單"},{"start":12435.504,"end":12456.612,"text":"後面才有研發跟生產好 那我們來看一下大概是怎樣第一 我們希望未來參考烏克蘭建構用合一要購買的跟使用的要一致我們看到的他們烏克蘭建業是什麼他們的採購全部是集中的他們把部分的預算下放給基層的部隊指揮官由他們根據需求向民間採購所以非常的靈活"},{"start":12457.512,"end":12478.886,"text":"而且呢他們好不好用馬上就知道所以才能促進烏克蘭的多元供應而且呢迭代更新第一個問題國防部要去思考在非暫時的情況之下我們如何突破現有的採購法的限制做到不再由中科院認定供應商而能夠讓實際的基層使用者他獲得他們所需要的裝備這是第一個第二個"},{"start":12481.172,"end":12495.331,"text":"烏克蘭是全民接兵 這個兵不是上戰場全民在鑄造兵器 造飛機啊烏克蘭是個什麼情況烏克蘭因為迭代更新很快有賴於他們的去中心化他們怕大工廠被轟炸轉型到公寓裡面的家庭工廠"},{"start":12496.132,"end":12511.694,"text":"他們的前線需求是直接後方也不遠直接工程師去溝通瞭解戰士的需求因此他是多元供應只有多元供應才能夠滿足未來無人載具在不斷作戰之下他的多元的需求這是第二個"},{"start":12512.574,"end":12535.245,"text":"第三個方面的教訓是什麼?場域空間、射頻元件、頻譜這些在烏克蘭作戰的時候,有一個NCC會去管制這些研發者的射頻訊號嗎?有一個民航局會去管制他們研發的時候,你不能到處亂飛嗎?沒有但是畢竟台灣不是啊,台灣現在不是在打仗啊我前不久才去參觀了一個反制無人機系統"},{"start":12536.257,"end":12550.865,"text":"他們呢是用三套設備他們第一個他們用被動偵測能夠偵測到7公里外的射頻訊號不只可以抓到無人機還可以抓到飛手但是再下來呢他就開始要做敵我識別之後他有一個龐大的"},{"start":12551.721,"end":12572.31,"text":"平埔的一個資料庫可以判斷這個無人機什麼樣子然後它在發動電子干擾用軟殺的方式讓它失去效能那如果遇到那種所謂影像自主導航的光學自主導航的沒有攝頻訊號的它仍然有主動雷達毫米波雷達去偵測到讓它結合軍方的擊殺鏈透過物理的方式把它擊落"},{"start":12573.667,"end":12599.309,"text":"他現在告訴我一個問題啦他們自己公司在研發的過程當中呢他要有紅隊的無人機來當作靶機他自己是藍隊 他用反制設備去捕捉請問他要在哪個地方做?民航局 哪個空域可以讓這樣的公司去實作?NCC 他所使用的這些評估跟射頻元件有沒有經過你的核可?最後呢 還是民航局他的靶機根本不是市面上的 他是研發的 他要做對抗"},{"start":12600.009,"end":12623.971,"text":"有經過你們的四行性測驗嗎?所以不管是場域的開放測試,還是設備評估的開放,都需要法規去整合。部長,很簡單的說,您說現在行政院有辦法做到這一點,我很懷疑。後面那幾位,不管是民安局也好,速發部也好,NC也好,這些法令都還在啊。你在沒有一個法令的授權之下,如果透過行政協調去解凍,很簡單的方式。來,部長請回答。"},{"start":12624.651,"end":12649.353,"text":"我想委員指教的很好那現在在台灣能夠找到這樣的一個場域空間然後一個比較乾淨的一個平樸的環境然後來做一個驗證這件事情確實是不容易但是行政院正在努力的結合各部會來進行協調那我想也已經有一些相關的進度那這些有一些涉及到法規是不是要進一步鬆綁的問題"},{"start":12650.514,"end":12674.64,"text":"還要在無人機的部分還要考慮到非常安全的部分然後跟這個無人機的測試的這個部分結合所以有一些關於測試場域的一個尋獲然後這個測試場域要如何快速的來進行申請簡化他的申請的程序等等我想這些都在做靠部位的協調那如果委員要知道詳情的話可能私下有這個"},{"start":12675.98,"end":12702.62,"text":"總和院院長嗎還是民防局局長還是航空局局長部長我還是講結論在院裡面的層級裡面去處理的那個部長其實這些業者我們都有在交流啦當然是無人艇他就要到左營軍區透過軍方的協助那因為如果說還要載上一個爆破的一個這個炸藥那更不用講民間根本不能取得嘛所以他的測試有很大的限制那現在"},{"start":12703.749,"end":12727.974,"text":"民航局的部分空域 航港局的部分海域單單一個無人艇要試航 要先載出去 不是開出去啊所以我覺得這個都限制到我們在無人載具發展過程當中的速度所以最後的結論這個我為什麼請部長 次長 院長 還有主秘跟局長一起來聽就是我們從烏克蘭經驗可以參酌 但烏克蘭跟我們不一樣我們多一個台灣海峽"},{"start":12728.954,"end":12742.245,"text":"其實烏克蘭初期的陸戰FPV取代了裝甲載具這個戰場 初期不會出現但是我們擔心的是恐攻第五縱隊在海峽封鎖之前 他們就在我們搞社會破壞對我們的關鍵基礎設施進行無人機的恐攻"},{"start":12745.207,"end":12765.122,"text":"這些都是未來包括國防部跟行政院整個部會我們要去思考的所以我的主張講結論技術通過正願版的採購金額跟品項確保國防部可以建構無人載具的戰力但是也希望未來國防部跟各部會要採購的機制要多元彈性要能夠授權給實際操作的部隊去決定他採購的需求"},{"start":12766.483,"end":12783.476,"text":"這是烏克蘭的戰場經驗所換來的一個血淋淋的教訓最後我們去中心化分散性的思考要增強無人機載具的供應鏈的韌性要給它場域給它頻譜給它原件的開放它才能夠研發跟測驗我們未來不希望有一個中科院主導所有的無人載具的研發烏克蘭沒有這樣的機構"},{"start":12786.398,"end":12810.237,"text":"烏克蘭是全民皆兵全部的中小企業都投入這樣的研發創造生產他們的工程師日新月異兩週一週就迭代那我不認為這樣的一個情況在現有的國防部中科院的體制下能夠完成希望未來部長能夠回去我們支持行政院但是也希望未來在相關的制度上能夠參著借鏡烏克蘭人的經驗我們做一些符合台灣的必要調整部長可以嗎"},{"start":12811.104,"end":12833.846,"text":"所以我們會在這個採購計畫裡面 就會有一個回饋的機制 然後來創造 當然我們沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣 我們會有演訓 然後我們會有這個收集國際的商情 那我們會有各單位的意見的回饋 那我們會在這個平台上面來進一步要求廠商能夠做一個"},{"start":12834.566,"end":12840.776,"text":"快速的迭代更新這樣子謝謝部長 因為主席站起來最後請民防局局長要取得你親口的承諾民防局局長請"},{"start":12842.658,"end":12870.777,"text":"因為當年在2017年我們民運航空法的無人機專章是您主導去著手朝你的那時候本席也是在交通委員會那是遙控無人機那是空拍機是濃噴機是250公克以上25公斤以下現在我們的無人載具已經在對岸可以有舉起四軸八旋翼可以舉起100公斤的無人載具國內有研發可以得到四航的許可嗎現在的法令很難"},{"start":12871.718,"end":12897.058,"text":"所以民用航空法我會再找時間跟你好好討論要趕快突破這些限制我們台灣非常有活力跟創造力的研發能量才不會被我們的法規束縛所窒息可以答應嗎這個報告委員這個沒問題這個我們再跟委員報告好 那我在這裡也謝謝我們召委希望下次排案的時候本席的版本有機會來做提案說明也能夠就教於我們各界 謝謝"},{"start":12898.188,"end":12901.691,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員 謝謝劉吉光接下來我們請陳俊宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請顧部長請官方部顧部長"},{"start":12923.289,"end":12939.144,"text":"部長今天我們病案討論的無人載具特別條例可以看到我們三個黨團所提出幾個版本名稱上都是支持無人機甚至是無人載具的國內發展"},{"start":12941.226,"end":12959.472,"text":"但是在條例所聚焦的一個重點項目還有執行方式甚至主管單位都不太一樣那以這個無人載具在現在戰場的一個關鍵角色和發展不對稱作戰的一個重要性從先前的這個俄烏戰爭到近期的美伊衝突我們都看到"},{"start":12961.033,"end":12975.284,"text":"相關的情形非常的明確而相關的議題也在進行很多次的討論今天不論是以國防部防衛作戰需求在採購項目的評估上或是在訓練、驗測"},{"start":12977.646,"end":12998.687,"text":"甚至如何強化我們國防自主提升作戰持續的量能等各面向都是因應我們敵情威脅進行規劃現在要如何快速的籌措大量生產國軍所需的武器應該是我們現在最優先也是最迫切的一個考量"},{"start":12999.347,"end":13022.834,"text":"所以這個國防武器的籌貨由國防部來主責專業的這個軍事採購並由經濟部和相關部會來協助建立相關的這個產業鏈我想是最合適的啦那在5月份今年的5月份的時候有部分的我們國防部所提出的案項最後沒有被納入影響我們國內相關這個產業"},{"start":13027.486,"end":13047.273,"text":"沒有被納入 沒有這個案項沒有被納入我們國防特別條例當中被刪除的部分我們行政院認為有可能會影響到我們國防戰力的缺口也會影響到國內產業的自主發展所以我們考慮三個補救方案 第一個就是另案來"},{"start":13049.195,"end":13073.986,"text":"提這個特別條例第二是追加預算第三是擴大我們年度的預算規模那我們最近行政院版本最後提選擇要提這個特別預算來編列除了報告中有這個規模穩定和資源集中的這個特性那之前也和部長您討論過要考慮迭代創新和科技進行的"},{"start":13075.026,"end":13099.477,"text":"部分也透過我們長單的持續投入擴大在國內的這個產業鏈進而能夠打造飛鴻供應鏈降低我們在資安上的一個風險但是目前在野黨所提出的這版本仍然是傾向以公務預算的模式來進行編列我想請教部長我們院版所提出的特別預算的這個考量是什麼"},{"start":13100.177,"end":13124.112,"text":"那相比於其他版本對於國防建軍的這個影響上有什麼差別這部分是不是請部長簡要說明一下跟委員報告我想我們當時提的那個1.25兆的這個特別條例裡面有關無人載具的部分並不全然納入我們這一次再提出來的這個特別條例我們這一次提的特別條例比較著重在於"},{"start":13124.552,"end":13147.842,"text":"我們國內可以自主生產的部分那有關有一些其他外購的一些項目我們會或者是追加預算或者是納入我們就是提出這個總預算以後納入明年的預算裡面來那之所以要這個就這個國內自主生產的這個部分在報告裡面已經已在說明就是說"},{"start":13149.318,"end":13172.781,"text":"我們一定要讓我們的國內有這些無人機的產業能夠按照我們的需求能夠達成一定程度的一個規模經濟然後降低它的成本然後它又能夠呼應無人載就迭代創新的這種概念然後所以用一個長單的方式讓他看得到未來的願景讓他就願意多投入"},{"start":13173.542,"end":13189.251,"text":"多投資多願意跟國外進行技術移轉的落地等等這些然後進而讓我們的國防產生一個完整的一個飛鴻的供應鏈在我們台灣那這樣子的話暫時的韌性才能夠獲得確保"},{"start":13190.932,"end":13204.44,"text":"這個是提出來的一個特別條例然後會進而提出特別預算的一個緣由啦我的意思是說並不全難將所有其他的一些無人載具會放入那其他無人載具的部分我們"},{"start":13205.58,"end":13227.457,"text":"有一些純粹外購我們會編錄,最佳預算或者年度預算那我們另外有一些還屬於新興的我們很可能會用小批量採購來進行這個驗證我們也有透過有一些研發的部分我們會透過中科院等等來進行研發所以相關的無人載機的範圍其實是非常高"},{"start":13227.777,"end":13246.09,"text":"非常廣的另外我們在籌購的項目上我們看到我們原本有明定這個濱海這個尖針型的無人機還有這個濱海攻擊型的無人機以及這個小型自殺無人艇那無人機的這個消耗是非常的快"},{"start":13246.89,"end":13260.367,"text":"需求也很高我們從這個烏克蘭他透過無人機這個部隊深入俄羅斯他本土成功炸毀並重創這個莫斯科這個最大的煉油廠及周邊的油庫我們這個"},{"start":13262.423,"end":13286.434,"text":"可以看到這個無人機的重要性那在我們國軍各地無人機部隊也陸續編程形成一個爭打一體的戰力確實有需要快速籌獲的必要性而在這個無人艇的部分我們也看到近期美軍在實戰當中他運用自殺無人艇突襲伊朗的海軍基地毀損他的軍艦維護設施等等我想"},{"start":13290.435,"end":13309.442,"text":"這也是我們台海防衛作戰的一個非常重要的啟發那關於這次這個院辦所要籌備籌購的這個項目包括兼增攻擊型的無人機結合其他武器裝備的配合上以及自殺無人艇部署我們單位和應用的規劃上對國軍的作戰需求"},{"start":13311.883,"end":13333.402,"text":"有什麼樣的一個急迫性那這部分是請部長也簡要說明一下我想我們報告裡面有提到主要就是分成一個是中國的黑色地帶的洗澡這個黑色地帶洗澡我想無人載具可以結合我們現有各式雷達系統來有效來實行海空一的監控狀況設施警戒跟外離島的巡查任務來強化警戒"},{"start":13334.503,"end":13359.888,"text":"效能然後也降低人力跟裝備的負擔那如果說再進一步威脅升高的話那無人載具就可以快速部署在關鍵的區域然後去監控跟預警共軍的活動然後也協助責管掌握戰場的動態縮短這個部隊應變的時間加速各項應處的作為那尤其我們整個防衛作戰有涉及到整個他要大舉入侵的時候一定要在"},{"start":13360.761,"end":13381.35,"text":"水面進行渡海那這個部分我想無人機在整個船船航渡到登陸的階段的時候無人機可以發揮相當大的一個效果那這些都是還有無人艇也可以發揮相當大的一個擊殺的效果所以這個部分是我們認為有迫切需求的一個原因這樣"},{"start":13382.247,"end":13400.34,"text":"好那這部分我希望說我們國防部能夠持續跟相關部會結合我們國內的產業還有學研的能量加速建構完整的無人載具生態系那提升我們國軍不對稱的作戰能力及我們的防衛韌性轉化為所務我們國家"},{"start":13402.581,"end":13419.381,"text":"安全的一個最主要的這個能量這部分要請部長跟我們相關的單位能夠積極的來這個辦理是 國安部會努力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝陳軍委員接下來有請沈伯陽委員質詢"},{"start":13431.394,"end":13435.68,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長有請國安部部長"},{"start":13439.621,"end":13468.315,"text":"是 陳委員部長好那這個我覺得我們應該都很困惑為什麼我們在經濟委員會這個剛剛前面很多委員應該都有提到了這個其實就是應該在三樓它應該是在我們國防外交委員會要來審查的一個法案但是我們現在卻在經濟到現在我也搞不清楚為什麼今天會到這部田地畢竟我們從無人機的需求從去年開始提出"},{"start":13469.075,"end":13488.558,"text":"現在已經7月了所以已經整整過了7、8個月結果在最早的時候我們的在野黨講的是什麼講的是說這個沒有國情報告我們就沒有辦法來通過這一些後來也沒有國情報告的狀況之下突然就可以通過一部分的特別預算的條例"},{"start":13489.318,"end":13506.193,"text":"然後呢無人機飛鴻供應鏈等等的就莫名其妙的被放在旁邊然後現在又可以又被提出來所以這其實呢不但是拖著我們的國防的時間它其實呢對於這個內容對於品項還有這個法律的寫作我覺得真的是亂七八糟"},{"start":13506.914,"end":13533.274,"text":"我在這邊有先列我們現行有兩個非常重要的條例一個是產業創新條例一個是國防產業發展條例這兩個都是我們現在如果我們真的關心國內產業的發展我們就有產業創新條例我記得我好像是在總質詢的時候那時候AI在發展的時候我們認為產業創新條例裡面應該要有AI所以當時怎麼做就把AI放到產業創新條例裡面其實就結束了"},{"start":13534.218,"end":13542.985,"text":"所以如果今天我們真的認為無人機的發展重要那我們就把它放到產業創新條例嘛而如果今天是跟國防有關的那就放到國防產業發展條例嘛"},{"start":13544.808,"end":13567.746,"text":"這陣子我們最有名的應該就是潛建國造這各位應該都非常的清楚請問我們潛建國造帶動國內的產業沒有錯啊那請問我們要弄一個潛建國造產業創新條例嗎不需要啊所以我們現在弄了不管是這一個國民黨提的國防自主無人載具科技發展採購條例跟民眾黨提的強化國防自主及無人產業發展條例草案這跌床架屋嘛"},{"start":13568.246,"end":13590.861,"text":"因為這是我們現行的規範裡面就已經有的東西那如果我們要回到跟國防有關的採購國防有關的採購就應該在三樓討論為什麼會在這邊討論我對於現在我們在這邊討論這件事情整個條例的提出和寫作我都非常有意見那我相信部長或是法律人在這邊提幾個點比如說本來的我們這個行政院院辦的"},{"start":13591.181,"end":13614.574,"text":"他對於預算法跟公共債務法他要怎麼去排除因為他是特別預算的特別條例所以他必須要做一些排除他才有辦法不配不去擠壓我們的年度的預算那現在呢我們用這一個國防自主無人載具科技發展這一個條例他沒有去做排除啊那他財政紀律法跟預算法他本身就沒有遵守啦"},{"start":13615.302,"end":13638.85,"text":"那這不就是要把這樣的一個購買故意的把它放在年度預算那它不是明擺著要你去擠壓我們跟教育跟未還跟這一個社會福利有關的預算嗎那如果執政黨我們今天在行政體系裡面我們不願意去擠壓到教育不願意去擠壓到衛福的時候那請問這個預算要怎麼編它實質提出這個條例就是讓你們預算變得不能編"},{"start":13639.89,"end":13668.713,"text":"如果今天放在特別條例的時候呢因為他有做排除我們可以在這個狀況之下不擠壓我們的社會福利不擠壓我們的教育文化的狀況之下然後還可以來做這些國防自主產業的這個購買所以這顯然明顯從去年黨到現在現在這樣做照樣還是黨啊你放在年度預算就是會有困難更不要講說違憲的問題我剛剛聽到前面部長應該都有回答到這個本身等於是立法院自己編預算自己審"},{"start":13669.874,"end":13692.145,"text":"這完全不合理嘛更不要講說呢我看到這一個民眾黨的版本裡面講到說要需要發展的綱領需要做什麼交通的改革需要測試的場域問題是我們本來就算是我們原本劃給這一個經濟部四年四百多億的它本來這個四大推動主軸它就已經在上面了"},{"start":13692.964,"end":13700.139,"text":"那已經在上面的東西他本來這個辦法跟計畫就已經存在那你寫這個條例到底是要做什麼"},{"start":13701.374,"end":13724.088,"text":"它沒有任何的意義耶就是你把大家都已經在做的事情然後你說要把它變成一個條例為什麼突然要提升到法律的威脅剛剛嘉賓委員其實就已經講得很清楚了這一些跟無人載具有關的發展它是日新月異有時候是不到一個月甚至是幾個禮拜它相關的技術它應該有的方向就完全改變了你把它變成條例你其實是把它卡死"},{"start":13724.893,"end":13753.156,"text":"那更不要講說呢我看到國民黨這一個版本它裡面講到說這一個呢速發不要會同國防部啦做好這個什麼通訊的模組啦什麼等等之類的然後飛鴻供應鏈可能要怎麼做啦我們的工程會針對飛鴻的分級的方式表明明白白的就我這表格就附在上面啊這本來就有的東西啊我們的工程會的遙控無人機的採購作業指引裡面從預算的編列到採購策略的應用屏占轉換共通性的規格國產化"},{"start":13754.878,"end":13758.549,"text":"飛鴻供應鏈要怎麼做檢測管理使用列帳保險都已經規範了"},{"start":13759.97,"end":13788.469,"text":"這些都是已經在規範的事情那為什麼為什麼現在要把他放在這個條例上面然後讓他變得沒有彈性所以我覺得整件事情到現在就是亂搞亂搞就算了明明就應該在三樓在國防外交委員會討論結果現在要我們來經濟委員會討論這些事情我們對於國防的自主對於國防的採購這是國防事務分什麼軍 他說這個軍用跟商用難道是沒有聽過是雙用嗎Due use沒有聽過嗎"},{"start":13790.27,"end":13815.704,"text":"這個現在對我們的國防是多麼重要的事情從去年到現在 黨就算了造成國防的這一個購買的delay就算了現在實質的是把它變成條例之後你等於還把它的彈性卡死耶然後到最後把它弄到年度預算之後變成說它沒有辦法只能放在年度預算那這個時候只要你有其他的教育文化跟衛生福利相關的你就要被擠壓那不是明擺著叫你不要編嗎"},{"start":13816.664,"end":13838.938,"text":"我覺得這是很過分的一件事情國人必須要正視這件事情剛剛部長在前面已經回答很多了所以我想說這邊部長就不用再回答但是我在這邊有直播一定要讓國人知道到底現在在搞什麼鬼就明明是一件簡單的事情我們今天要帶動國內的產業我們今天科技的發展這個稅收其實是變多的"},{"start":13839.434,"end":13866.377,"text":"那今天在科技發展順序變多的時候我們對於傳統產業我們要怎麼扶植我們要怎麼讓它加入到這一邊這個非紅供應鏈那時候明明白白在最早提出來的那個特別條例寫得多麼清楚如果說剛剛那麼多上來諮詢的委員都說他們不反對非紅供應鏈那為什麼不早早在去年11月的時候就把非紅供應鏈的規則就讓它在特別條例可以通過規則在我們的工程會在我們的指引裡面本來就已經有規定了"},{"start":13867.188,"end":13894.202,"text":"所以我覺得這些目前我們現在討論的這幾個除了院版還有我知道處理委員也有一個版本這其他看起來跟打假球沒有什麼兩樣啦更不要講說裡面還有一個更誇張的 這我一定要提這個國民黨黨版的這一個第五條跟第六條它的戰備儲存 它直接跟你講說我載無人載具生產的機器要分布在三個不同的縣市不要集中在單一地理區域我們把戰略的東西定在法條上面要做什麼"},{"start":13895.302,"end":13916.735,"text":"那如果這個以後變成可以索取的事項那我們要怎麼辦我們把國防機密直接把它定在上面然後今天軍民共用測試場的這個跟國安相關的你至少你跟他講說我要至少三處那你把它定在這一邊這些都是對方想要的資料結果我們把它明明白白的定在法條上面"},{"start":13917.435,"end":13941.133,"text":"這個說真的這絕對不是一個我是覺得如果對於國防不了解或者對於國際情勢不了解就不要寫出這樣的一個法條然後放在國會的殿堂然後在錯誤的委員會討論這個是我覺得完全不能接受的事情這個是我在去年在今年一月的時候我那時候就有講到如果今天我們認為這個產創我們對於國內的這個產業要扶植要怎麼做我在一月的時候就講了"},{"start":13945.316,"end":13962.613,"text":"就是經濟部要去微調產促條例十之一當時AI就是這樣做它就是一個現有的法規如果也覺得有什麼新的標準產促條例你在這邊做微調你在經濟委員會你可以討論但你在國防的採購你就是應該回到國防外交委員會"},{"start":13963.474,"end":13989.766,"text":"所以這真的是我必須要講就是現在這一個情勢我覺得國人一定要看清楚現在在野黨所提出來的這些法條還有這些本本到底在做什麼那真的很不好意思讓這個部會在這邊但是我覺得因為剛剛前面都已經回答太多了態度也很清楚啦到底有沒有違憲之語啦這個採購到底如果說你訂到年度預算應該要怎麼辦我覺得剛剛前面都回答得很清楚"},{"start":13990.126,"end":14001.51,"text":"所以我在這邊要表達嚴正的抗議我們應該要回到國防外交委員會來討論國防的採購不是在這邊不是在經濟委員會謝謝好 謝謝委員接下來的話我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":14013.992,"end":14019.697,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長跟何次長好 我們請國防部經濟部 謝謝是 各位部長好 部長那個我看了整個藍白的版本當中是從產業面來做切入那具體的條文當中呢也有可能透過每年的這個公務預算的編列方式而延遲到交貨的這個節奏"},{"start":14043.275,"end":14057.834,"text":"那二來的部分他有一些的暴露出來供應鏈的這個合作對象而且在一定金額以上那這幾個條文來看的話他著重於產業以商業為主這個很像是以民代軍"},{"start":14058.855,"end":14082.563,"text":"而且拖延時間又保留一個彈性第三供應鏈釋出是不是有這個機會我只說講這三點可能剛剛在備詢台沒有注意到剛剛有一個新聞也就是說傳出北京主動提出三個原則這三個原則就是以民代軍實成彈性釋出供應鏈的機會也就是飛飛虹"},{"start":14084.023,"end":14093.696,"text":"這個情況底下對照今天藍白的版本還蠻吻合的部長你怎麼看我想我"},{"start":14096.311,"end":14123.82,"text":"在看到新聞的當下我並不是非常的清楚這個相關的這些這個它的確實性是如何但是我想我們還是堅持我們國防部的立場就是說以大量產單的投資策略刺激國內廠商來投資相關的軍用無人載具的產業鏈那麼我們一方面擴大生產量一方面追求技術升級那最重要就是要飛紅"},{"start":14125.602,"end":14130.243,"text":"供應鏈,那這個跟現在民主國家都是步伐都是一致"},{"start":14131.465,"end":14157.987,"text":"部長 我想你的概念上很清楚就是以需求代替供給那也就是從烏克蘭的整個產業的發展也是從一個國境的需求發展那過往也有一些GPS也是從國防的需求而發展出來而因此而產業化我想這個方向是正確的 沒有錯不過就你條文的內容當中其實剛剛也有其他的委員有提到你著重於這個延愛的防守"},{"start":14158.928,"end":14173.864,"text":"基本上一旦到沿岸的時候對國人的這心理壓力都非常的大不論是濱海型的監視型或者是濱海攻擊型以及無人機及其小型自殺無人艇等等都是以沿岸防守為主"},{"start":14174.665,"end":14193.588,"text":"但是呢有沒有可能不同的一個作戰防守思維從烏克蘭的角度來看一個比較延長的方式可以高達這個兩千公里的一個距離這樣情況底下是不是中長距離的部分打擊跟干擾的作戰思維會是在這個法案當中的重點當中的另一個重點"},{"start":14194.65,"end":14204.769,"text":"我想這兩個部分是不一樣就是說我們這個幾款的這個攻擊型的無人機除了沉浸式跟投彈式以外我們還有中程的自殺式無人機跟"},{"start":14205.478,"end":14233.505,"text":"小型的自殺式無人機它攻擊的距離在我們的整個的渡海面對渡海作戰上面有一定的部分那您現在講的是更長程的對 更中長程或長程的話那是更需要依靠更需要依賴低軌衛星或者我們國內的這個衛星的可能性對 它有相關其他的那個要支援的一些措施那我想這個部分並不在我們這一次的範圍內但不代表我們不會去發展這個部分"},{"start":14235.138,"end":14250.289,"text":"這個未來的發展也就是說可能會有第二個梯次就是如同啊這個昨天啊這個卓院長有提到一般嘛對不對是下一個進程我們這一次的特別條例著重在是我們依據國內的這個能量那能夠自主產能的這一塊"},{"start":14251.028,"end":14269.148,"text":"至於更長程,您剛提到的這個它有很多的一些資源的一些設施包括導控、包括通訊、包括辨識然後包括最後進行這個能夠自主的供給等等這些我想這些部分"},{"start":14270.268,"end":14290.836,"text":"呃有有需要很多的這個需要一段時間的相關的不是不是說花費的遠就可以打得到但他有相關資源的設施那這個部分也是在我也是在我們的也是在我們的環環委員之內但是我想我們沒有辦法在這裡多做說明好謝謝部長啊部長請休息我接下來請教一下次長次長"},{"start":14292.276,"end":14317.989,"text":"市長其實從442億的這個部分的一個產業發展的這個2025到2030的這個預算當中其實到目前為止雖然大家都在稱呼說無人機產業是未來的這個護國神山可是就我所理解的部分這些業者可以區分成所謂創新業者也可以區分所謂整合業者就創新的部分呢一年之內可能"},{"start":14318.909,"end":14347.526,"text":"生產不到10台POC的展示機啊而且有很多現象都是在玩VC啊創新啊資本的一個組合甚至呢有換金主的現象一個換過一個這是第一啊這創新的一種現象啊拿政府資源的一種亂象第二個整合業者是引進了中國相關的一個器材透過洗產地的方式還有貼這個標籤的方式然後牽切解說非縫供應鏈的方式這種亂象當中有沒有可能遇遇惡質啊"},{"start":14348.487,"end":14376.49,"text":"部長 社長跟委員報告那有關這個部分其實在工程會已經有訂定這個遙控無人機的一個採購的一個指引那要完全這個遏止這個非紅就是紅色供應鏈的這個產品進到公務部門的這個採購裡面來所以我們已經有一套機制去阻擋這些紅色供應鏈的這個產品"},{"start":14378.291,"end":14398.655,"text":"工程會是在今年1月公布啦目標是在2027年1月開始啦那亂象之所以產生要達到非紅化跟國產化一個重要的目標遙控無人機的採購作業指引當中寫得非常的清楚那重點當中呢今天要討論的是如何商轉均雙用的狀況憑暫時如何轉換我覺得這非常關鍵啦那現實來說呢我們卻產生了幾個問題第一個呢我們在這一個"},{"start":14408.344,"end":14428.953,"text":"電池供應的這個部分當中一個關鍵的一個原料的部分不論是電磁芯的部分等等的這些呢還是在中國的依賴的情況底下這如何去紅化這是第一個第二個呢熱顯像的部分夜間的作戰核心以及飛控電腦飛行控制的核心的這個部分關鍵的這個部分都是經濟部要去面對的問題啊"},{"start":14432.489,"end":14453.407,"text":"你砸了這442億當中,如果你有辦法產業化的話,那將來才有可能軍用化,不是嗎?是,跟委員報告,就是您這邊提到的一些關鍵零組件的這個部分我們現在已經有透過一些法人科專,已經開始在跟產業界跟法人一起來做研發"},{"start":14455.568,"end":14476.163,"text":"我們目前有一些無人機的產業他會從日本從美國那邊進口這些關鍵女組件進來做一些組裝這當然這是短期的一個因應做法那長期我們還是希望他能夠落地能夠在國內能夠自主生產這方面的一些關鍵女組件所以這也是我們在這個同舟型計畫裡面為什麼編了一兩百億的這個研發補助的經費要來協助產業能夠趕快來發展這方面的一個關鍵"},{"start":14482.668,"end":14508.057,"text":"我想商購的部分跟偽製的部分一定要有一定的比例的一個調整不過對於依賴這個偽製的商購的部分就會影響到偽製的一個發展影響到國防自主的一個未來我想在比例上拿捏當中經濟部作為這個中科院最大的單一的股東來說這個角色非常的重要且關鍵然後非紅化以及國產化的目標要達成經濟部的角色應該在這個時候透過這442億的預算來把它予以達成謝謝謝偉"},{"start":14513.22,"end":14535.429,"text":"好 謝謝郭國倫委員接下來請陳永康陳委員質詢好 召委有請顧部長好 有請顧部長另外副總長執行官也請一請請副總長"},{"start":14538.258,"end":14553.758,"text":"是 陈伟部长 赖总统对于我们国防预算的成长他有一个很明确的政策指导在2030年前要达到GDP5%你知道GDP5%的国防预算概阅有多少数字吗"},{"start":14555.683,"end":14570.811,"text":"我想因為我們現在GDP有確實有往上成長的一個趨勢所以我們如果應該要看用哪一年的GDP來計算這樣子那當時總統在宣布的時候應該是在202214年那當時應該是在2028.5兆嗎還是28.5兆2.85"},{"start":14585.56,"end":14611.652,"text":"我們今年是GDP3.32這樣我把一些數字跟您分享28台幣如果賴總統講您說那個占比GDP5%我們用去年的預算來講國家總預算GDP的東西是28兆我們的國防預算占比就到將近1兆5000億那往後還有4年我們不談成長"},{"start":14612.893,"end":14637.323,"text":"所以说我们有一个5505亿的一个额度增长平均每年有四年间每年增长1376亿就是持续成长那如果我们国防预算每年成长1376亿怎么会跟其他的不会产生排挤呢因为我的额度已经包在里面了这是总统的指导啊就前面几个"},{"start":14638.797,"end":14653.658,"text":"這個友好我們同仁講的話都會講產生排擠我就問他他連這個數字都沒看過怎麼會產生排擠呢而且對我們國防預算來講有很大的預量跟成長空間這個是我們支持總統的想法"},{"start":14654.414,"end":14675.182,"text":"另外我要再跟大家讲一下刚才大家特别讲乌克兰的案例成功的案例未必可以复制乌克兰的面积是台湾的16.7倍乌克兰有starlink如果没有starlink support他他早就输了乌克兰用的是starlink跟现在fiber optical导引"},{"start":14675.942,"end":14685.599,"text":"它不是平原 它沒有高山 沒有大城市所以看到的目標不是無方的就是惡方的如果把它那個套到台灣來請問我們21萬架無人機裡面"},{"start":14688.82,"end":14705.381,"text":"用5G 6G乃至7GWiFi如果到了暫時電網中斷WiFi沒有了請問我們的微波這個時候副市長執行官你能不能答我們的微波導引有多少千這有跟速發部有溝通過嗎"},{"start":14707.628,"end":14725.063,"text":"委員好,這一部分實際上我們在國防部其他的暗巷裡頭還有其他部會的暗巷裡頭,關於這個國家通信任性資源作戰的時候這一塊都已經有規劃正在做,那我們這些未來無人機的發展當然也是配合這一部分的科技也在進行"},{"start":14726.372,"end":14753.195,"text":"都在规划但是没有纳入法规只是横向沟通这一部分也在法规上的修订也都有讨论也在做相关的这个速发部如果今天不能把民间的频道频宽移给国防部到了战时当WiFi没有用你有线的微波现有国军的频道都是军用的都自己用的这么多的如云机进来了你没有中继台没有机动微波站"},{"start":14754.817,"end":14770.737,"text":"請問這個問題怎麼解決現有的平埔管制已經根據我們作戰的需求都在國安會的主導之下有在做進行相關的建置跟討論21萬架是總數你在國內單位平均整個在使用的時候也不會超過5000個門號"},{"start":14773.789,"end":14790.941,"text":"最好的案例就是人家送你100个iPhone18结果你只有三个SIM卡这个不是诚意你把东西放在那边所以这些的效益也是有限的现在我们要讲的你是用遥控还是自主无人机"},{"start":14792.339,"end":14819.368,"text":"遙控就是你戴個Goggle操縱那你現看看的都是微型小型機制可是自主式的無人機的AI的晶片的軟體還有通訊的中心這個是末端用戶你要負責任的外銷沒有問題我們去年無人機外銷產業已經達到了9300多億美金我們樂見其中但是如果這個東西是由國防部來運用要發揮它的戰力烏克蘭的效果"},{"start":14819.568,"end":14836.927,"text":"并不能够在台湾复制你的电网全部在西岸你也不可能拖20公里长的那个micro optical的导线所以你的线住音是非常困难的这1300艘海上无人艇你要超过到24海里请问用哪一个频段去导控它"},{"start":14837.668,"end":14860.389,"text":"他是自主式吗那如果你谈到了自主式我就问这个长官的授权man in the loop人在回路之内man on the loopout the loop你的ROE有出来吗ROE不是写一个卡片呢包委员您讲的那个卡片只是我们在演习的时候为了让基层官并了解用了实际上常设性的交战规则还有我们这个授权的这个范围"},{"start":14860.734,"end":14875.022,"text":"都已經定在我們未來這個相關的作戰的作戰計畫裡頭並且有一部分已經付諸執行所以有關於這個無人機包含它各自導控的方式以及導航的方式目標辨識的方式最後確認目標ROE接戰規則的方式"},{"start":14878.764,"end":14894.187,"text":"都在我們國防部JOP裡頭的計畫裡頭都已經寫進去了並且有部分已經生效了那當然我們這個未來的無人機採購也要配合這個科技的發展與迭代更新最重要的是我們未來戰場上的需求這一部分我們都已經做了考慮了"},{"start":14894.648,"end":14912.996,"text":"前面已經講了這個放在年度預算因為你每年度成長的預算都有這個1370幾億所以並不會產生排擠效用關鍵是說21萬架次你的儲藏包括有自毀式彈藥儲存這個國防部有計劃但是太多的數字一致"},{"start":14913.536,"end":14927.583,"text":"放在那边你并没有发生的效果所以我们认为放在年度预算并没有冲击我是支持这个案子也支持国防部的想法唯一的就是站在在野党做监督的角色看我们认为放到年度预算并没有冲击"},{"start":14928.582,"end":14949.349,"text":"我是主席局局長 容許我針對排擠這個問題做個說明剛剛提到的去年114年有關GDP是28.5兆總統提到的2030年GDP的5%它基本上是一個前提就是核心的部分3.5其中全社會防衛論性是1.5所以在這種前提之下預算"},{"start":14950.069,"end":14977.192,"text":"沒有指定是一定是用年度預算按照預算法83條國防緊急設施是可以編列特別預算所以我們用3.5這個核心預算來算的話我們以去年114年在編115年的時候國防預算編在公務預算5614億中央政府總預算3兆零350億占比是18.2%如果說我持續把國防預算要成長的部分沒有透過特別預算"},{"start":14978.615,"end":15006.785,"text":"的編列的話我直接放到公務預算會變成我的我會有5614億如果成長一倍到一兆的話但中央政府總預算規模會超過23%到24%這樣的情況之下一定是會排擠到中央政府各政事別經濟社會文化教育支出的相關的經費支出所以排擠效應會發生在這個狀況之下你今年的預算9300多億是包括特別預算在裡面"},{"start":15009.225,"end":15034.57,"text":"9495億已經包含進去了所有相關海空戰力特別提升EPS-6的那一個然後還有兩年那個韌性的部分還有相關其他的依照北約所計算的海巡跟那個退伍費的部分所以未來增加5500多億是以你這個9000多億往上加所以額度tolerance已經在裡面了"},{"start":15036.906,"end":15059.974,"text":"他這個是包含的特別預算才裡面是對 今年的是3.32是含特別預算是含的我們原來的講了9000多億也含預估我們本來要通過1.25兆的特別預算所以我們一定要用特別預算才可以注意支撐我們所需要的官方預算的成長"},{"start":15064.79,"end":15086.442,"text":"好 謝謝陳永康委員我們上午答詢到達到陳昌明委員後休息那大概下午跟接近一點的時候一點好了啦 一點繼續開會現在一點 對不起一點半好了我們這樣吃飯了"},{"start":15091.035,"end":15116.871,"text":"我們等一下再宣布那個繼續開會的時間反正都要陳昌明委員之後休息好好那接下來我們有請蔡易瑜委員謝謝主席那我們是不是先請經濟部次長經濟部和次長"},{"start":15127.672,"end":15148.004,"text":"市長這個無人機那今天當然是在討論行政院院版所謂的這個特別條例那未來可能我們期待這個朝野應該要既然要支持整個無人機的產業那應該要用特別預算的方式來處理"},{"start":15149.545,"end":15170.579,"text":"那事實上剛剛也已經講得很清楚在陳將軍的諮詢事實上用特別預算就是不會排斥那我再舉一個事實上等一下我的諮詢就是最好的一個例子因為我們現在嘉義縣大概他從民雄的航太基地那現在這個中科院區已經完工那目前"},{"start":15172.24,"end":15190.987,"text":"就會即將要進駐那未來在這個民雄的航太園區西側的部分也即將要來動土在九月的時候東側的部分也會動土那西側已經完工那我想要請教次長就是說我們在於鋪子太保這邊有一個亞創園區"},{"start":15194.068,"end":15211.597,"text":"那這個雅創園區主要是在做國內無人機的這個他們主要在做測試以及在做研發的一個基地那這樣這個雅創園區目前它的空間就是不足所以我們希望可以把大同技術學院的"},{"start":15212.958,"end":15233.672,"text":"這個院區來做一個活化那未來讓雅創園區那整個跟一館二館那可以直接有更大的一個空間來做無人機的一個發展那我想要請教次長的就是說現在我們雅創園區二館的進度究竟是在哪裡他到底卡在哪裡"},{"start":15236.327,"end":15251.618,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經把亞創二館其實也納入到同酬型計畫那目前整個計畫是報到這個院裡面然後目前在做這個審查當中那國發會他目前在做公共建設計畫的審查"},{"start":15254.653,"end":15281.899,"text":"在做計畫的審查嘛 亞創園區的二管因為我目前掌握的啦亞創園區二管大概會再投入11.34億嘛那他目前的計畫期程是115年到117年那這樣整案啊 現在到底是為什麼還在審查中 因為已經審查好久了跟現在的總預算有沒有關係跟今年度的總預算有沒有關係"},{"start":15283.584,"end":15296.018,"text":"因為它是新興計畫那跟今年度的總預算也有關係新興計畫所以就卡住了嘛對不對就今年度今年現在已經七月了那我們雅創的這個二管這張新興計畫就拖這麼久"},{"start":15300.659,"end":15314.533,"text":"到現在卡關新興計畫沒有辦法所以就卡關所以我從這件事情就可以知道說我們現在說要發展無人機那我們這樣的一個亞創二館這麼重要的一個未來的一個研發基地測試基地"},{"start":15316.653,"end":15345.088,"text":"結果就因為總預算到現在卡到七月然後卡關到現在這樣就由此可見嘛現在國民黨他們講的藍白他們現在說的說什麼要用本預算來逐年編列本預算逐年編列如果又像這樣我們的亞創二管總預算只要被卡住它就要延宕七個月甚至可能還要更久這樣就知道說你用本預算然後又卡本預算就根本就是虛晃一朝"},{"start":15346.922,"end":15355.988,"text":"要騙人的嘛 吃水的嘛 是不是這樣所以我們還是希望能夠用特別預算的方式來支持國防部來編列這個2100億能夠讓我們國內的這個無人機的採購能夠讓廠商有一個穩定長遠的一個訂單讓廠商可以進行投資當然嘛 為了確保這個是穩定的國內支持的力道不會因為總預算被卡關"},{"start":15373.759,"end":15399.191,"text":"然後就要延宕事實上我們的雅創二管這件事已經拖到現在7月然後你們說因為新興預算現在沒有辦法被執行的這樣的一個狀況我們真的很緊張因為到現在都還沒有通過那我想要請教一下市長未來你們現在在審查你們即將要把二管你們要做怎樣的定位"},{"start":15400.303,"end":15424.284,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們希望能夠擴大提供研發的這個能量還有試製測試 試量產 還有飛行測試 國際驗證還有人賠方面的這些相關的功能那能夠讓整個嘉義地區的這個無人機的這個產業它的量能還有它的這些功能 它能夠在這個亞川二管能夠完成之後"},{"start":15425.044,"end":15439.521,"text":"配合我們國安部旁邊的這個民雄的這個基地啊能夠有一個整體的一個整個園區的一個規劃然後讓整個無人界產業能夠真正落地在這個嘉義地區好 次長所以"},{"start":15441.201,"end":15467.627,"text":"亞創中心的定位可能就是說第一個是人才培育嘛第二個是在測試嘛測試可能有做整個無人機的性能的測試那其中還有一個很重要的是飛行的測試那如果飛行的測試你們預估是要哪裡來進行飛行測試小型的無人機在亞創中心就是亞創的基地就可以是不是亞創基地附近會有一些小型的這種測試場測試場"},{"start":15470.556,"end":15491.909,"text":"那如果是中大型的無人機呢我們交通部目前大概也有二十幾處的這個飛行測試的這個場地啦所以我們會來協助就是說在適合的這個場域來做測試那之前我們有在說嘛是不是可以就近就在水上機場來這邊來做測試場域這個有機會嗎有機會有機會那是不是這要再跟國防部溝通一下"},{"start":15497.478,"end":15509.523,"text":"是跟交通部可能還有跟國防部都有所以是交通部跟國防部溝通對我們可能會一起大家來來協助那個業界還有因為部長也住在這裡嘛是不是部長可以幫我們了解一下"},{"start":15511.071,"end":15528.447,"text":"未來整個無人機的一個試飛大概水上的第四聯隊可能要扮演這樣的一個空間可以跟交通部然後來溝通讓水上機場可以變成中大型的無人機的一個試飛場域"},{"start":15529.948,"end":15539.776,"text":"就是要協調一下那個空域的使用的時間然後相關的一些非安的這個因素的考量那這個大家都有在"},{"start":15543.034,"end":15565.029,"text":"對 都在協調當中好 OK 那就大家再了解一下我想整個無人機的產業的推動從測試人才培育到一些空域的一個試飛場這個都完整的措施都必須要把它現在都要把它佈置好那等這個特別條例 特別預算再通過後這樣對我們國內的無人機產業才是大大的一個挹注 好不好"},{"start":15565.865,"end":15592.556,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡議員那我們上午改質詢到邱氏委員之後再休息那接下來我們請陳昌明委員質詢嗨 主席啊首先啊"},{"start":15593.683,"end":15610.039,"text":"有請我們國防部採購室我們的趙紫潤趙將軍還有國家中山科學院我們的李院長好我們請國防部相關班會謝謝"},{"start":15617.2,"end":15645.847,"text":"今天沒有請我們國安部顧部長先上台我請教你們幾個問題若依照行政院特別條例的話兩千一百億依照你們的報告說你們要在台灣自主建造濱海雄的偵察機濱海雄的無人機還有濱海的無人潛艇這裡面到底要花了多少錢"},{"start":15647.976,"end":15666.354,"text":"這個多少錢還是要依據實際的這個項鍊的需求沒有你大概你說要自主防衛要趕快動員完成2100億如果給你國安部你完成這一些的時候大概要多少時間你才能完成部長剛剛所講的無人機21萬架"},{"start":15670.938,"end":15687.744,"text":"我們一整群水艇一千三百部大概你的時間要多久才能完成?班委員這是要依據這個產業的能力這個都有關?所謂依據產業的能力是怎樣?班委員這個跟委員主席我現在怎麼問?這個問題你在台灣自主採購生產的還是國外採購生產的佔了多少?"},{"start":15698.652,"end":15717.466,"text":"我為什麼把中科院特別請出來你國安部你的採購是為什麼特別請出來不要部長回答包委員我們現在採購的這三個款項全部都是在地生產在地製造我問你多久能完成"},{"start":15718.271,"end":15745.854,"text":"多久完成的部分針對無人機的所以我現在在湊你的話無人機的部分當國民黨民眾黨提出來債務黨提出來一年四百億六年兩千四百億增加保證你會聽到嗎當兩千一百億如果你是在台灣生產的時候那個溝通協調的能力非常重要"},{"start":15747.045,"end":15759.664,"text":"但是你中科院跟你國防部的採購室要跟民間來聯繫來溝通來做的話以你們的心態非常的困難我為什麼特別把這一點強調出來"},{"start":15761.704,"end":15780.076,"text":"因為在裡面的時候如果把你們正確的意向給跟你們配合的廠商你們溝通能力很差外面願意尋找到那也不便再講多國防為了保衛人民生命有時候是但是在這樣的時間你要去完成"},{"start":15780.896,"end":15790.903,"text":"以我個人的名義你們沒有辦法我們事實上已經跟產業界做了很好的溝通我們是產業界做了很好的溝通我已經不講了我為什麼講你們不要這樣置信皮奧奇怎麼在做的他的無人機怎麼完成的"},{"start":15797.708,"end":15820.027,"text":"他有分做商用跟經用沒有大的公司把你們用軟體整個結合起來再去做很困難我們類似形式供給的無人機機槍已經透過我們我問你2018年你外部的完成嗎你有準備嗎你為什麼不肯跟我回答你的廠商都準備好了"},{"start":15821.388,"end":15837.016,"text":"我再跟你報告一下無人機就是要六年做完無人艇也是在這個時間之內會完成但是我們會以一年一標的方式來執行我跟你講你一年一標的方式一樣那一年給你400億有差別多少"},{"start":15838.217,"end":15842.098,"text":"市長你這次怎麼全去8月等於沒料?市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":15859.262,"end":15873.934,"text":"聽出來啦,我們都知道這裏面的困難跟協調溝通有幾樣要很重要你以為這樣就可以有幾樣的事情你們做得很成功你們成功只要對國外採購那就兩千一百億對國外採購你們佔了多少?佔零"},{"start":15877.256,"end":15900.675,"text":"全部台湾,好不批评,我就是要有这么专门的国防部不要到国外,2100亿都没有在国外采购全部在台湾做了,所以讲了,要算了,再来作战级计划,参谋处的处长室通讯电子资讯的参谋室,各位将军大家辛苦了"},{"start":15905.612,"end":15930.284,"text":"你這些諮詢我為什麼點出來因為國網是保護你要跟廠商溝通你的軟體你的尖片設計你要怎樣去溝通你們很大膽的出來接下來在溝通的時候你又怕我現在是跟你說我們在諮詢會碰到的一個問題然後全部你們自己做你們自己發訂單啦你一個"},{"start":15932.123,"end":15959.241,"text":"國安部的採購室你中科院要去管那些工廠這樣就是你管理的來啊那每一個規則都要有一個註定的標準啊你們要想一想那個零件要有多少我是這樣跟你說的不要太有自信你自己說這樣倒倒的再來零件做做的你的工廠要怎樣來設計要很快加工速度"},{"start":15960.914,"end":15987.548,"text":"你看到伊朗地下室你看到烏克蘭的這樣子它是從大陸帶進零件家庭基礎啦那我為什麼特別提出土耳其的一個方式它是有成功因為它有實戰的經驗我們還沒有實戰的經驗你們總理還要預算總人公要的業務我也支持但是先把問題提出來幾年以後不敢講"},{"start":15989.489,"end":16011.561,"text":"六年一年四百億,六年剛好把這個產業鏈完成四百億如果進度有快你也可以特別要求啊你們覺得這樣幾十年要開會,沒人敢跟你們講話,追蹤的很少保定我為什麼會突然跟你談到這一切其實裡面的溝通各方面的細節要有非常的注意"},{"start":16012.742,"end":16029.288,"text":"不是很簡單的意思一個產業鏈的完成要試再試土耳其花了多少錢他現在無人機算是做得很成功引為為見台灣也不要自我驕傲說我們半導體引擎什麼都行"},{"start":16030.348,"end":16047.431,"text":"我跟你講土耳其這個成功也是一個借鑒給我們一個學習的機會跟參考的機會我是跟你說要做,做實事不是打高空當飛機位起來都是保衛台灣人民的生命財產的安全這個責任很重大"},{"start":16048.392,"end":16070.878,"text":"跟委員報告第一個這個案子都不是中科院在主管說跟廠商怎麼樣怎麼樣這個都是由國內的廠商來進行投票的第一點第二點就是說有關相關的這些技術的我們就是希望透過這個大量產單的這個策略來刺激國內廠商要亮起來整個都要規劃好2100億"},{"start":16076.302,"end":16090.697,"text":"你說沒有採購外面的,台灣這個我完全贊成因為這裡面的商區可以延伸台灣另外一個富國神山的產業,要好好努力那個召委給我再一下,我再來另外問"},{"start":16092.279,"end":16110.735,"text":"你們現在工作報告裡面說聯參針對防衛作戰各階段需求進行長達兩年以上的深入研究並以有名國家共同評估了以後確立整體無人機的系統"},{"start":16112.036,"end":16139.995,"text":"當然剛剛講到兵來行、自殺行還有那無間的群挺裡面這裡面你們講到最短的時間快速的整建下來所以我一直在強調你們這一點不要以為很簡單搞不好有頭無尾我問了這個問題我們做無人機以有名國家共同評估為什麼要這樣共同評估我們台灣有台灣的需要"},{"start":16141.329,"end":16158.934,"text":"烏克蘭的環境,斯人的環境,伊朗的環境,以色列的環境,每個環境不一樣啊為什麼要與友邦國家共同,還要跟美國協商,我們要怎麼做才可以我是陳磊,可以不用回答"},{"start":16160.998,"end":16185.946,"text":"因為我看了這2100億我記得資料是看了跟美國協商出來的結果還是我們做好了要把文機送給別人另外還有一個我覺得也蠻重要的你的報告裡面說邊則國家大事生死存亡之道但是你裡面的報告裡面又寫出"},{"start":16189.928,"end":16218.046,"text":"上市回升機載具將以國軍各類運行友人作戰系統相互協調形成重層兵來打擊網塑造台灣海峽第一的場景不斷的接受敵軍的戰力企圖換台失敗我裡面塑造台灣海峽第一場景你不是要跟台灣前沿去打仗嗎"},{"start":16219.256,"end":16245.296,"text":"不是 這個地域場景是給中共看的不要這麼寫啦 你寫給中共看啦中共比我們更了解 如果大家彼此對視啦你不要把下午台灣啦你寫成塑造台灣海峽地域場景這是美國人講的話餒台灣人不能講這樣的話 還對製造恐怖啊 謝謝我們沒有製造恐怖 我們在製造嚇阻"},{"start":16250.029,"end":16278.554,"text":"好謝謝陳昌榮委員接下來我們請邱志偉委員好謝謝主席是不是請國防部顧部長然後經濟部是何市長請國防部跟經濟部部長辛苦了比照幾個版本院版跟國民黨跟民進黨版本我發現幾個問題第一個"},{"start":16281.496,"end":16308.703,"text":"這個主管機關的歸屬跟國際上主要的國家完全是背道而馳我們看一下主要的國家包括美國英國法國德國在亞洲日本南韓大洋洲的澳洲啊這些國家的無人機採購主管機關部長都是是不是都國防部是我想國防的採購應該就是由國防部來主管只有台灣背道而馳"},{"start":16310.576,"end":16335.717,"text":"這個很謬誤啊那為什麼其他國家走在前面都是由國防部為什麼要由國防部來主導部長原因是什麼因為國防部最符合我們的作戰需求是嘛那如果經濟部經濟部他可以了解作戰需求還有這個專業嗎然後你會不會造成研發端或者是這個採購端跟作戰端沒有辦法契合造成脫節"},{"start":16336.943,"end":16357.192,"text":"對 所以我們又 符合作戰需求我們會跟廠商來瞭解我們的需求 我們的規格所以從頭到尾由國安部來統籌 籌貨或者是來這個末端的作戰的這些相關的規劃這才是正道嘛"},{"start":16358.052,"end":16377.951,"text":"何市長 何市長 如果無人機條例是由你經濟部來主管 你做得到嗎是 我想這個無人機的這個作戰需求 這個我還是國防部的權責啦奇怪 其他國家都擺在前面說就是由國防部來主導 我們為什麼一定要由經濟部來主導"},{"start":16380.626,"end":16398.624,"text":"這個動機可異然後預算變變方式當然用特別預算它不會排擠這個年度的預算年度預算還會受到很多的障礙包括你二一拖延啊或者是二一三減等等造成預算不穩定性這個問題有它的時間性"},{"start":16401.411,"end":16411.216,"text":"因為這個作戰變化很快規格變化很快你又一拖再拖你會讓預算呈現不穩定性這個 顧委員長您同意嗎"},{"start":16412.253,"end":16438.039,"text":"我覺得最重要的一點就是說如果講說要編入年度預算根本不需要立法因為年度預算要怎麼編列就是行政院的權責行政院參照所有整體的國家的總預算再依照我們國安部提出的一個需求然後他會依照我們的財力然後來編列年度預算所以您的意思說就是化蛇添足嘛那特別預算才需要運用特別的條例所以我們現在"},{"start":16441.58,"end":16460.178,"text":"訂的是特別條例那其他國民黨跟民眾黨它是條例嘛那條例裡面又放說年度預算要怎麼編其實年度預算要怎麼編就是行政院的權責啊行政院出來之後就由立法院來審如果條例裡面明訂金額會不會有違憲之虞啊"},{"start":16462.327,"end":16488.079,"text":"因為編列預算的權就在行政院嘛那立法委員的權就是在於根據這個預算的編列然後進行審查嘛那立法委員講是立個法說行政院應該要編多少預算那這個當這個預算案送進到國會的時候那國會到底能不能刪減它就很奇怪了嘛 對不對"},{"start":16489.295,"end":16493.839,"text":"我不是很清楚 就你法院專家 這個會不會構成違憲的要件立法院不應當有指定預算金額啊對不對"},{"start":16505.68,"end":16521.705,"text":"就你的法律專業你就有沒有違憲之餘啊所以我想年度預算應該就不需要年度這樣怎麼編這不用條例嘛這不需要用條例在入法嘛那只有特別條例因為要運用到特別預算"},{"start":16522.065,"end":16547.802,"text":"那特別從特別條例開始就要接受立法院的監督所以我們從特別條例提出來那因為這是採購國安部的軍備的採購那就國安部主管那國安部提出來之後會之後條例通過之後會再提出這個特別具體的特別預算就跟上一次通過的特別條例是一樣一般的條例跟特別條例是不一樣它的目的它的針對就完全不一樣"},{"start":16549.585,"end":16572.791,"text":"那你就你所說的如果用年度預算現在就可以執行了嘛對不對沒有錯嘛年度預算就是行政院來編喔是啊那另外這個在民進黨跟國民黨版本裡面他的採購項目啊特別條例裡面院版他很明確要採購哪些項目數量對不對但是這兩黨的這個項目啊"},{"start":16577.196,"end":16600.999,"text":"都很模糊啊這個會不會對戰備造成影響那個國民黨版的部分因為他在他的這個條列的15條跟16條裡面他匡列的那些400億的這個項目他有分三個一個是我們光這個軍用的這個無人載具那這個無人載具的範圍事實上是相當廣從空中到水面到水下"},{"start":16601.94,"end":16626.039,"text":"日薪月益那這些相關的預算到底要如何編列我想要如果是講年度預算那本來就是年度預算裡面要按具體的我們的需求來編列那何況他另外又夾雜二款有關什麼設施空域還有這個然後三款的產業的很模糊而且不完整沒有具體的暗項那到底"},{"start":16627.588,"end":16638.908,"text":"那最重要就是說那這些要怎麼編經濟部會提出來編那國防部也提出來編那就是說拿到行政院那行政院就會提出一個總預算嘛那在這裡面這樣子說"},{"start":16644.482,"end":16661.239,"text":"400億這個在我看起來如果在講年度預算的話這個沒有定力條例的必要啦所以我們跟他們最大不同就是我們是提出特別條例然後因為特別條例一定要經過大運通過之後我們才有可能再提出特別預算也要經過大運的同意啊"},{"start":16661.96,"end":16689.202,"text":"那年度預算本來就是行政編列前者根本不需要另外立法來訂定那就是行政編列出來之後不管是用常識或者用專業知識來判斷這本來就是國安部主導 而又用特別預算編列的方式來執行嘛所以我覺得很多 這個為什麼沒有辦法尋常規沒有辦法尋業用一般的知識或常識來處理這個事情那一定就是動機可異嘛"},{"start":16691.685,"end":16720.032,"text":"就是讓整個採貨案整個無人機的特別條例沒有辦法去立法完成沒有辦法立法完成你就沒有辦法去便利特別預算去籌貨這個無人機產業對不對這個動機實在可異而且不是可異還蠻可惡的另外啊他對這個零組件跟國產化指標直接寫在條文裡面這個部長或者次長這個會造成什麼影響"},{"start":16721.756,"end":16745.233,"text":"其實這個無人機要去定國產化比例因為它有各種不同的型態而且它迭代的速度非常非常的快所以會造成我們未來國產化的定義很模糊而且執行上也會有困難因為我要遵守時間 謝謝好 我們謝謝邱志偉委員接下來我們請李燕秀委員質詢"},{"start":16754.356,"end":16766.773,"text":"請何政次請顧部長 朝偉大家辛苦了今天中午時間因為議題很重要所以大家中午沒有休息持續的討論當中但是我要提醒部長次長"},{"start":16768.835,"end":16790.407,"text":"發展無人機無論是在國防上的需求無論是國家未來把它放成重點產業十年之後五年十年之後全世界看到台灣不只是晶片我們讓人家眼睛為之一亮台灣是無人機重要的產業發展國家也讓人眼睛為之一亮我說到目前為止部長您同意嗎"},{"start":16791.912,"end":16805.063,"text":"我想無人機產業發展當然是很重要是國防很重要我們讓全世界眼睛為之一亮台灣重要的上下游產業鏈無論是人才也好無論是我們相關產業鏈台灣都有這個能力做我相信我講到目前為止兩位都不會反對國人也不會反對好剛才我聽到其他委員在講說無論是特別條例也好或者編回年度預算我個人認為審查預算這麼久"},{"start":16820.316,"end":16842.313,"text":"只要是講得出道理媒體都在監督大家也都很清楚我覺得大家都不會反對如果大家各持不同的意見用哪個版本出去我想人民會有所檢視好 回過頭來無論是行政院2100億或者是藍白的版本2400億接下來要怎麼放在"},{"start":16843.918,"end":16866.779,"text":"經濟部底下或者多少要放在國防部底下因為國防部的採購會比較特殊我不是專業我也不去講太多但是為什麼要無人機產業條例也就是我們希望接下來5年10年20年之後的發展我們是可以符合無論是商用的需求其他國家願意跟我們採購國防部"},{"start":16869.301,"end":16891.885,"text":"不可能讓外界來採購台灣的無人機嘛我們未來的做法只是我們自己發展我們自己的需求我們未來要讓國際間來採購台灣也還是要經濟部其他的部會整合來去支持嘛所以我個人認為無人機產業的重要性還有制度的建立是重要的護國群山一個護國神山多個護國群山不是用錢去堆出來的"},{"start":16896.986,"end":16912.453,"text":"而是制度如何建立去配合國際的需求跟調整制度如果不公平或者部分產業的壟斷因為台灣其實現在不只是一個台積電我們還有更多的其他產業上下的產業資通訊這是台灣人才的韌性產業的韌性我們在隨時能在制度上隨時配合產業的調整所以今天為什麼我們討論這個議題我們跨部會一起來討論經濟部一起進來"},{"start":16926.599,"end":16942.751,"text":"這就是制度的建立很重要 制度如果不公平產業的壟斷或者是少數廠商的壟斷就扶植幾家起來五年十年自己這一兩個廠商做得不好我們說不定就有斷層我們希望扶植更多的"},{"start":16943.331,"end":16947.574,"text":"大小產業或創新產業在這個無人機產業都可以同時上來我想這是大家的目標這是產業希望我們透過這一次無人機產業大家可以討論的制度不透明的話採購也會失去人民的信任制度如果不完整"},{"start":16961.445,"end":16985.731,"text":"加大錢我們也買不到我們真正要的軍備的戰力所以我們憑著過去憑著全球的資通訊半導體的關鍵地位把國際認為我們是非紅的產業鏈所以正因為這樣子所以未來的十年我們無論在國防跟產業的重大立法都非常的重要今天我們能不能有序的透明的公平守住這三條產業的底線"},{"start":16988.532,"end":17014.642,"text":"來發展無人機產業這是我認為接下來我們在討論無人機的時候重要的目標跟目的那行政院這次規劃21萬架要採購無人機包括濱海攻擊型的無人機等等208,200架其實數量非常的龐大你們現在講說未來用長單迭代更新的原則我都尊重因為無人機它可能"},{"start":17015.863,"end":17032.899,"text":"就是不斷的升級上去但是就是說我不知道接下來廠商得標會怎樣我想大家都不知道但是它能不能符合未來的需求我不清楚就是說未來採公開制的包括副市的絕標"},{"start":17035.881,"end":17064.42,"text":"只要符合技術水準你們所有廠商都可以參與但是這麼大的量體富士的絕標是不是只開放給幾家廠商這是外界都在質疑還是集中在少數的大廠是不是能多到達到真正的多廠分流扶植我們本來的目標無人機廠我們希望有能力的讓大家都可以一起來參與分批迭代這個是我想請問次長的地方次長你能不能簡單回應我"},{"start":17066.501,"end":17089.871,"text":"跟委員報告其實國內無人機有整機能力的大概二三十家的業者那我想這些都是我們這個業者的機會如果國防部有這樣的一個預算的編列的話他絕對不會說只有是少數的廠商才有機會參與而且現在產業的上中下游其實它形成一個很綿密的供應鏈的關係"},{"start":17091.992,"end":17110.013,"text":"所以絕對不可能去獨厚哪幾家既然是未來國家重要的產業鏈我就要提醒你們如何避免形成寡占的市場這個包括上下產業鏈都是大家只要有意願人才可以共同培育我要提醒你們特別注意的地方"},{"start":17112.256,"end":17126.024,"text":"到底你們提的行政院版本其實看起來好像是國防的緊急採購你要用一般用特別條例就是緊急需求看起來就是緊急採購才會用到這個特別條例其實2100億的特別條例2400億的國防預算其實都是給錢給你們去"},{"start":17133.268,"end":17147.313,"text":"做採購或是產業輔導的需求在我看來只要對外解釋的好審查預算把關的好其實都可以把事情做得很好所以但是我要提醒你們包括在115我要請問顧部長在115年到116年之間你們有500億採購了5型近49000架軍用的商規的無人機你們集中在少數具備產量能力的資本整形大廠共大概有3億2600萬"},{"start":17161.478,"end":17182.147,"text":"這個部分外界有質疑說國防部的採購量這麼大資源會不會其中某幾家大廠部長你可不可以簡單回應我我們訂出規格之後如果有作為整機的能力的人他們都可以來得標所以沒有說獨厚營某一家的廠商的問題"},{"start":17183.339,"end":17196.232,"text":"那當然未來標案怎麼設計是不是讓大家都有機會參與大家都在看我們是集款的無人機所以剛剛就講說為什麼互速決標就是說希望每一個有能力的廠商都能夠進來參與然後形成這個供應鏈這樣"},{"start":17199.099,"end":17224.637,"text":"部長我最後因為時間已經到了透明的發展也很重要產業透明的發展很重要部長市長我們過去國造花邊的9.8億國造反無人機系統的檢驗沒有達標這個就是一個很好的警惕真正制度的改變我覺得沒有建立符合實戰需求這個過去發生過未來如何避免部長"},{"start":17226.533,"end":17253.993,"text":"包括國造的反無人機系統的測試9.8億到最後我們才發現沒有符合市場的需求這就是我要提醒你一次編那麼多的錢做那麼多的事情那國際的需求戰備的需求其實我們沒有辦法預測五年之後打仗是一個什麼樣的形態十年前我們都不知道說會是這樣子的打仗形態就是說形勢都在改變無論是軍用商用都在改變"},{"start":17255.33,"end":17264.324,"text":"所以我才提醒說如何去建立符合市場需求它是滾動式的調整所以為什麼我們每年審為什麼我們要每年審"},{"start":17266.625,"end":17270.189,"text":"一次發達那麼大 我們是不是有更多的彈性讓廠商也好 讓政府也好 讓產業鏈 經濟部也好知道國際的需求是什麼 軍用的需求是什麼民間的需求是什麼 我覺得才會更有彈性這是我今天花幾分鐘質詢 雖然時間很短"},{"start":17286.346,"end":17304.794,"text":"我要提醒部長跟次長的地方 大家好好深思一下大家都希望把事情做好 不論是2100億 2400億特別條例 公務預算 都是一樣給你錢怎麼樣把事情做得好 怎麼樣把無人機產業做得好才是我們今天 你我站在這邊的初衷 以上 謝謝"},{"start":17306.547,"end":17308.529,"text":"好 謝謝國務卿委員 謝謝國務卿所長接下來我們有請鄭振淺委員質詢馬文君委員質詢還沒有在休息 謝謝"},{"start":17329.417,"end":17354.584,"text":"OK 謝謝主席我想請一下郭義雄部長還有我們何進昌次長我知道郭義雄部長一點半要先離開那剛好還有點時間就跟您做一個相關的一個討論跟對話那我在想說今天在我們經濟委員會在審這個相關的一個條例我覺得是特別的有意義因為我看到那個我們經濟部的一個報告第四頁當中也特別提到要把台灣"},{"start":17355.504,"end":17385.024,"text":"打造成為無人機民主供應鏈的亞太中心所以說我們在這一次的這樣子的一個無人機相關的事情當中除了說要滿足國防部他對於我們整個國防當中的一些需求之外的時候我們還扮演了一個在全球民主陣營當中很重要的一個無人機生產基地的這樣的一個重要的一個角色所以我這邊也特別提到一個點在上個月的時候呢公研院"},{"start":17385.844,"end":17408.804,"text":"成功變成美國Green UAS美國境外唯一的一個認證的機構就表示台灣在美國整個的一個無人機的全球佈局當中重要性非常非常的重要而且我們也知道美國有很多的"},{"start":17409.304,"end":17432.617,"text":"研究單位都跟工研院產生了一些技術的一個合作跟相關的一個配合針對無人機的一個部分所以我覺得今天我們在整個經濟委員會在討論整個無人機產業發展的部分我覺得特別的有意義然後再加上我們的行政院副院長鄭麗君她在前幾天也特別提到說我們希望在2027年民國116年的時候能夠達到全"},{"start":17438.36,"end":17445.921,"text":"非紅供應鏈的無人機全非紅供應鏈我想這個目標是不是具體的可不可以請次長回答一下"},{"start":17447.117,"end":17468.96,"text":"跟我們報告確實我們現在無人機還有一些技術缺口那所以我們也訂定了一個這個技術技術發展的一個一個藍圖那怎麼樣去補足我們的現在這個三金二卵的這個部署的部分我們是透過法人科專業界科專讓這個業界跟這個我們相關的法人大家一起來來合作把這樣的缺口來補齊"},{"start":17469.821,"end":17499.364,"text":"所以我可以理解就是說我們現在到目前為止因為事實上我們從前幾年就開始有買無人機一直下來那我們目前買的無人機也許有一些是國防部這邊採購的有些是我們其他部會採購的因為目前整個13個部會都在採購無人機我們現在很明顯的是要透過政府的一個採購來帶動無人機產業的一個發展這是不是一個我們在整個發展這個無人機產業當中的一個策略"},{"start":17500.144,"end":17526.067,"text":"確實是這樣沒錯所以說當我們現在就是在採購這麼多無人機的時候然後你剛剛有特別提到說我們在之前採購的無人機基本上都不是全非紅所以表示裡面其實可能有很多的部分是由大陸的供應的零組件組合在一起的那這個部分的時候會不會對我們目前的安全或者是其他的部分產生影響"},{"start":17526.987,"end":17544.982,"text":"根文報告我們現在同仇營計畫工程會已經訂出指引出來就是說我們未來在遙控無人機的這個採購上面一定要守住這個工程會所訂定出來的一個指引的一個標準所以不准有這個紅色工業鏈的這個零組件能夠在"},{"start":17548.064,"end":17573.417,"text":"我們的這個公務使用的這個無人機裡面因為整個無人機它的那個零組件其實非常非常的多啦其實從整個供應鏈來看他們覺得至少有六成以上的供應鏈那麼很多不同的領域不管是動力模組或者是光通模組或者是整個飛控模組等等等等這麼多模組當中的時候我們確實有把握在116年2027年之前"},{"start":17576.518,"end":17588.942,"text":"達到全非紅供應鏈這樣子的一個目標嗎是我們目前就是朝這個目標來努力那這個我想未來在國安部他們所訂的這個2100億的這個採購裡面"},{"start":17591.623,"end":17617.548,"text":"其實也就是要達到全機非紅的這樣的一個所以有關於你剛剛提到工程會這邊有提到說的非紅的一個標準的時候什麼時候會公告因為很多廠商台灣現在自詡為整個無人機產業鏈國家隊一環的可能有兩三百家的公司啊你知道那他們其實很需要知道在整個非紅供應鏈當中的時候因為事實上整個全球化幾十年下來之後整個產業的"},{"start":17618.948,"end":17639.241,"text":"那個整合密度非常的高你要怎麼樣能夠達到真正的非紅是不是會有一個很具體的標準出來有 已經公告了就是我剛提到工程會的那個指引他已經公告了未來我們的公務的採購就是要follow這樣的一個標準他那標準當中的並不是全非紅喔"},{"start":17640.222,"end":17654.77,"text":"他不是全非紅所以我要提到的是因為對國防部來講他們很多的需求可能會希望是全非紅的一個情況所以對於這樣的部分的時候我們有可能因為產業鏈當中他要替換當中的時候其實不會很快"},{"start":17655.65,"end":17683.812,"text":"所以我們也很希望台灣能夠真的變成全球全飛鴻無人機產業的一個中心因為事實上我們在台灣做的生意從來都不是只針對台灣國防部的需求我們是要面向全世界的所以我們希望在我們發展無人機這個產業過程當中的時候本身的定位就是在一個比較高的一個狀態因為如果只是國防部他可以從台灣買從國外買"},{"start":17685.633,"end":17709.722,"text":"都可以達到他們的需求可是對我們來說我們如果要扮演就是全球無人機非紅供應鏈的一環的時候那我們的定位考量就會不一樣所以我覺得經濟部在整個主導整個我們無人機的一個發展跟整個配合國防部的需求我覺得是非常的有價值的那我最後也要特別講一下因為整個"},{"start":17711.002,"end":17739.423,"text":"最近無人機會這麼樣的火紅引起全球各界的關注跟整個烏鶴戰爭肯定有非常具體的關係可是我們看到了就是烏克蘭它的經驗可以變成我們的借鏡可是我們不能夠照抄烏克蘭他們從2022年幾乎沒有什麼產量無人機到今年預計要超過700萬部有些估計可能要到800萬部可是它這邊是因為戰爭所導引出來的需求"},{"start":17740.424,"end":17764.272,"text":"那剛剛次長這邊有提到說我們政府部門先透過政府的採購等於是有個引信來把整個無人機產業把它啟動起來可是我們之後要做的生意我們要提供的不是只有台灣的國防部所以我們希望整個台灣的無人機產業在這一波當中能夠掌握這樣的一個全球的一個"},{"start":17765.872,"end":17793.061,"text":"契機那麼另外一個部分就是說我們從烏克蘭的經驗當中我們要學到的不是政府大量去買單不是用政府去攤派來帶動這樣的一個產業而是他們有快速驗證快速改版民間競爭低成本量產的一個供應鏈的一個狀態所以我們希望就是我們經濟部這邊能夠把整個無人機產業弄得更成熟然後不會變成"},{"start":17794.622,"end":17811.162,"text":"只針對少數固定的廠商拿到補助因為經濟部裡面產發署這邊的時候有很多的錢無人機購買的錢裡面絕大部分都是在做補助的一個部分那我們希望說能夠讓更多的中小企業"},{"start":17811.903,"end":17835.41,"text":"能夠一起在這一波當中得利而不會變成只有固定的廠商得到補助然後進到這個場域當中然後固定參展然後得到政府的標案形成一個封閉的一個供應圈我想這不是我們希望的一個狀態好不好好謝謝部長謝謝次長謝謝好謝謝偉好謝謝鄭正杰委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞吳秉瑞委員接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":17852.339,"end":17857.722,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長還有經濟部何次長最後一個就好 好不好"},{"start":17864.293,"end":17892.139,"text":"部長好次長好今天辛苦了不過大家還是非常關切我們今天所討論的這個相關的議題首先我想要先請教經濟部因為我們在112年就已經有編了442億統籌型的這些相關委員載具的這個計畫那這個今天有很多委員提到產業聚落的部分那經濟部其實也提到很多次我想這個產業"},{"start":17893.84,"end":17896.226,"text":"產業聚落跟產業鏈已經建構完成了嗎"},{"start":17897.561,"end":17912.645,"text":"跟委員報告我們是從首景計畫是114年開始那目前我們盤點北中南的這個聚落其實已經成型但是聚落也會慢慢會有更多有更多的商機進來的話我想參與者會更多那現在的那個整個產業鏈已經是比較算是完整的你們只是希望他會更多他已經是完整的"},{"start":17924.328,"end":17941.228,"text":"大概有多少廠商?目前我們聯盟廠商總共有267家267家可不可以提供相關的資訊?可以 我們可以提供相關的資訊我們希望在這個禮拜之內提供好不好那另外就是他目前的成果如何?"},{"start":17941.909,"end":17958.148,"text":"因為你既然它都已經成型了嘛我們現在有些也有外銷那我們現在無人機的這相關的成熟度還有這些整個生產的這些量能我們覺得它的成果如何我跟委員報告一個數字就是說"},{"start":17958.989,"end":17978.698,"text":"去年我們一整年無人機的這個出口值達到0.93億美金大概有29億台幣左右那今年1到6月已經達到2.12億美金了所以大概66、67億主要銷哪裡主要銷哪裡主要是捷克沙烏地阿拉伯跟"},{"start":17979.378,"end":18006.893,"text":"波蘭這三個國家他們會用在哪裡可能有多種用途都有所以他在軍事用途上面有很多嗎是整機嗎是整機全部都是整機去年的0.9億也是整機0.93是整機沒關係多少是整機整機出去全部都是在捷克然後去年的話最主要是捷克波蘭美國"},{"start":18007.853,"end":18029.147,"text":"那今年一到六月是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯跟波蘭沙烏地阿拉伯是最近一次一張比較大的單那我們現在說要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心這個很大的一個前提就是要掌握關鍵領主権跟國際認證的能力這兩個部分我們都有了嗎"},{"start":18030.288,"end":18050.548,"text":"目前當然我們有一些關鍵的零組件還是有些缺口缺口主要是什麼缺口最主要是比方說地導控的這些這個非導控的晶片地控晶片還有通訊籌載這個部分那這個部分我們是現在透過法人科專業界科專的部分補助業界來"},{"start":18051.849,"end":18073.077,"text":"目前顯然是還沒有啦因為你客專的這個部分我們看目前在我們整機輸出的時候這些來源大部分都還是進口的我們看到台灣無人機產業目前還是在組裝的這個層級比較多因為我們核心的零件剛剛有稍微提到比如說抗干擾導航還有加密資料鏈"},{"start":18074.637,"end":18100.729,"text":"EO跟IR光片模組馬達推進系統飛控等等其實這個部分其實我們可能都還很多很多是需要外部的資源甚至進口那我們要建立可信的供應鏈就必須投入在航電光電資料鏈動力等關鍵模組的這個自主化可是我們現在目前最缺的也是這個所以如果這些你自己做不到"},{"start":18101.189,"end":18120.675,"text":"我們沒有辦法提到我們想要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心這個部分次長認不認同其實跟我們報告我們現在中型跟小型無人機的國產化比例已經達到大概六七成以上了那我們針對這些剛剛講到技術缺口我們的供應業也已經跟像中光電一些業者"},{"start":18121.155,"end":18125.999,"text":"他們也組成一個技術研發的聯盟大家一起來就這些技術缺口趕快來補齊好 次長講到中光電我們現在請教因為剛剛我們口口聲聲都說需要長期穩定的這個訂單我們其實要在這裡特別提醒國防預算的支出是要滿足我們戰力的形成"},{"start":18146.474,"end":18167.646,"text":"他是為了讓我們的作戰需求或者甚至我們的國家安全是有一定的保障任何武器裝備到位的時候都應該符合作戰需求這是國防預算編列的很重要的一個目的所以特別預算為什麼我們認為他已經到腐爛的地步他甚至我們等一下來討論一下因為我們這個這個國防"},{"start":18172.468,"end":18190.675,"text":"國防部版的這個無人載具變了2100億它很大的一個目的都說要發展國防產業還有建立我們自己的戰力可是我們來看看目前我們國內的廠商有哪些是具備相當的能力可不可以舉幾個例子"},{"start":18191.973,"end":18207.003,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個我們的無人機的這個產業聯盟你剛剛提到一家了嘛那還有沒有動力模組這個像螺旋槳螺槳的部分像台中甘摩安能那電池的部分有能源科技有量"},{"start":18207.943,"end":18222.631,"text":"馬達的部分有東元、麗山、富田引擎的部分有宇多田、豐造、海威、台禽等等這邊其實有相當多的廠商就包括剛我提到267家的廠商其實他們目前都已經"},{"start":18223.551,"end":18231.213,"text":"投入這樣的一個我們要的不是你這樣零散的廠商我們現在來說好了我們現在我想請教因為顯然那個廠商你沒有辦法把它講出來你剛剛講一個嘛就是他可以整機賣出來的你剛剛提到中光電我現在要請教我們國防部顧不有要補充嗎"},{"start":18243.716,"end":18248.96,"text":"如果是整機的部分 像雷虎 中光電 嘉士達 神藥 經緯 智強 長榮智飛 晴朗 等等你念了很多我想要請教我們顧部長因為我們在這些過去我們在這些預算的運用上面我們希望可以驗證以後再來採購因為我們一直以來我們在過去很多很多失敗的案例我舉幾個例子"},{"start":18274.297,"end":18297.479,"text":"先講我們軍用商規五行六類的好了剛剛次長唸到的不管長榮航太、智飛科技、中光電還有神通、雷虎什麼這些很多的這幾家我們先來看看我們去年買的建載型還有我們之前買的建載型、建真無人機、陸用建真無人機、建真型無人機、微型無人機"},{"start":18298.16,"end":18309.052,"text":"目落型無人機戰術型無人機我舉個例子我們之前去考察的時候部長應該也知道我們的兼徵型無人機微型無人機這兩型我們在現場有看到他在"},{"start":18313.097,"end":18328.912,"text":"之所以很貴一架要六十幾萬八十幾萬他之所以很貴是因為他有抗干擾的能力可是我們在現場看到他不到三秒就馬上掉落沒有失去自主飛行的能力那我們花這樣的錢是值得的嗎"},{"start":18334.497,"end":18335.798,"text":"像委員報告這個我想這個測試他一定是按照標準所以我們規格怎麼訂的因為他之所以貴你今天如果他只是兼徵主任今天這個規格"},{"start":18349.927,"end":18357.113,"text":"你訂出來他就必須要有抗干擾的能力所以你如果他一架高達六十幾萬八十幾萬剛剛次長說我們賣給沙烏地阿拉伯他是可能軍用的我們一架只賣五十萬"},{"start":18365.62,"end":18376.724,"text":"可是我們自己採購自己國內的一架六十幾萬八十幾萬可是很快他就受到干擾馬上失去自主飛行能力如果未來你編了2100億像這樣子的無人機你還可以繼續買嗎可以嗎您剛剛講的那個可能是規格不一樣"},{"start":18384.867,"end":18392.013,"text":"賣出去的和我們自己國安部的需求規格不一樣它也是軍用的我再次提醒你主任聽清楚我剛剛講的因為之前我們洪昭偉其實他也要過一些相關的資料他說在美國可能買到紙要一萬多塊可是我們的得標的廠商一架要七萬多"},{"start":18409.81,"end":18413.532,"text":"老實說足球無人機如果是自己組裝連1萬都不用而且還可以參加世界級的比賽所以就這個部分我們現在不能信任的是他用很高的價錢而且你在過去的驗證我們現在講的我們不講沙烏地阿拉伯是說他只買50萬可是我們自己買60幾萬80幾萬並沒有達到我們的符合我們的作戰需求他一下子就被干擾你連飛都不能飛"},{"start":18438.283,"end":18444.725,"text":"所以為了2100億你還是繼續買這樣子的東西嗎這是第一點因為時間的關係我在舉幾個像我講的微型跟建載型都是剛剛次長說的中光電跟中光電買的一個買了12億多一個買了9億多兩個加起來21億多可是他沒有這樣子的功能那第二個我們看到無人機反制系統我記得民進黨的委員上一次我們在"},{"start":18468.212,"end":18484.582,"text":"省預算的時候我有凍結一筆四億的預算民進黨的委員大肆撻伐然後說我亂煽動預算刻意政治操作事實擺在眼前說我們阻礙國防反對無人機可是我們發現這個113年到115年無人機反制系統創未來得標今年最後一年他測了三次都沒有過那現在怎麼辦"},{"start":18497.496,"end":18505.3,"text":"我們會後續行政裁罰第一個我們要的不是裁罰你們一直跟我們說你編列預算聽完我的問題你們一直在編很高額的預算說這一定有戰力的需求我們不能有戰力的空隙所以我們用了很多的手段去採購可是113到115已經最後一年過了三年我們無人機反制系統並沒有拿到"},{"start":18525.57,"end":18529.171,"text":"而且還給他撤了三次的機會所以這三年已經沒有這個反制系統那你未來還要再花三年嗎那你要跟誰買我們現在要說的在這裡要特別強調我們這個內容裡面我們要在這裡再次提醒時間"},{"start":18544.757,"end":18559.489,"text":"到了 不過我們要特別提到說我們還是要強調先驗證過去再授權未來不要口口聲聲 尤其民進黨的委員在撻伐別人的時候先想想為什麼這些還好我們當時有動下來 不然錢如果花了那我們拿到什麼"},{"start":18563.997,"end":18582.122,"text":"委員請容許委員讓我這邊做公開說明一下我想這個無人機反制系統啊我幾點來說明第一個這個案子啊我們是依據政府採購法來辦理採公開透明的方式來招商招標要商第一個第二個"},{"start":18582.682,"end":18588.845,"text":"主任我沒有要跟您主任主任你不要不需要講這個你們已經花了三年的時間給這一家公司這個機會我們失去戰力已經三年我們這個預算9億多的預算已經編了三年今年最後一年他沒有成功你勢必還要再採購一次我們這三年就是沒有無人機的反制系統可以使用現在我要再講的是"},{"start":18607.614,"end":18612.598,"text":"包括你未來我們在中科院過去的這些成果我們剛剛講到的你五行六類我們看到他就是不能用而且你還有六十幾萬八十幾萬老實說如果像那樣子的規格他不到五萬塊就可以買到了"},{"start":18623.106,"end":18628.511,"text":"所以這是第一個我們要檢討的第二個無人機反制系統不要說你是依照什麼採購法你本來就應該買成熟的產品無人機反制系統在我們全世界沒有這樣成熟產品嗎你直接買成熟的讓我們可以運用這樣就好了另外"},{"start":18641.963,"end":18661.349,"text":"中科院自己也有做那他到底好不好用你們也必須要做出一個證明跟澄清中科院其實花掉我們國家很多的預算所以2100億我們希望要監督的是驗證過去如果這些廠商他能夠"},{"start":18662.429,"end":18673.254,"text":"符合我們的作戰需求能夠符合我們的標準那你當然可以這樣買如果沒有那我們不希望2100億或2400億就像水上的泡影馬上丟了馬上就不見了報委員我們開放國內廠商"},{"start":18679.537,"end":18702.213,"text":"產製包含他代理國外廠商產製都可以並沒有限制國內的廠商那你不是要國防自主那你如果我們被封鎖的時候我們的這些我們這些東西要從哪裡來烏克蘭之所以能夠撐得下去第一就是他的東西非常便宜第二就是他的疊帶非常迅速他是國內自製生產他已經有這樣的量能"},{"start":18703.134,"end":18729.077,"text":"他有很多甚至都來自於中國大陸我們要講的是他們沒有飛鴻供應鏈我們有這樣的顧慮可是你還是可以從國外買的時候你就不是國防自主所以這個部分是開放的全開放的不管是國內的廠商或國外廠商因為這個案子最後是國內廠商因為第一次招標經濟部推薦的廠商是不是經濟部推薦的廠商是不是不是不是這個不一樣"},{"start":18730.717,"end":18738.579,"text":"我們是公開的 這個案子沒有依據經濟部的我們沒有要跟你討論個案啦你今天討論的是這麼高的預算記者朋友啊 把他公開出去的話這個資訊可能是錯的因為這個案子第一次報標主任 這個部分你去跟媒體說明清楚這個不是在這 我要講的是"},{"start":18752.602,"end":18773.396,"text":"到未來他拿了我們無人機反制系統已經9億多3年沒有站立我們沒有站立的不止這個還有你的火藥我們之前講的這些通常沒有符合我們的標準時間有關係好不好意思 擔忽這樣主席已經站起來我們在後續我們還是希望可以討論可是國防部切記你們的預算來自於"},{"start":18777.279,"end":18801.62,"text":"所有人民的納稅錢從你過去失敗的例子去找經驗不要把我們的錢全部都浪費掉經濟部也是因為我們之所以希望是經濟部來主導是因為產業發展才可以去補充我們所有量能烏克蘭其實它就是全面性的這樣子的一個產業發展所以這個部分我們還是希望大家可以共同朝這個方向努力謝謝不好意思主席謝謝委員"},{"start":18802.341,"end":18807.627,"text":"好謝謝馬雲經理人謝謝各位上午辛苦我們休息然後下午兩點半繼續開會"},{"start":18827.073,"end":18827.654,"text":"河沙 河沙"},{"start":20629.585,"end":20651.231,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":20652.705,"end":20654.883,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见"},{"start":20666.923,"end":20667.483,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":20699.823,"end":20719.927,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":20725.72,"end":20732.752,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李卓人"},{"start":20737.022,"end":20764.344,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":20765.993,"end":20768.979,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":20779.923,"end":20802.951,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":20817.756,"end":20821.678,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳"},{"start":20826.212,"end":20845.381,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":20854.585,"end":20858.007,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":20882.679,"end":20888.823,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈"},{"start":20931.193,"end":20932.494,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":20945.001,"end":20966.197,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳,這裏有個餐廳,"},{"start":20973.085,"end":20974.385,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。"},{"start":21009.626,"end":21011.027,"text":"這裏是一間大廈的餐廳"},{"start":21037.783,"end":21060.629,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":21066.928,"end":21071.817,"text":"這裏是一間酒店"},{"start":21076.199,"end":21086.528,"text":"這張照片是在2014年10月1日拍攝的。這張照片在2014年10月1日拍攝的。"},{"start":21122.465,"end":21122.525,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":21139.987,"end":21151.136,"text":"好好"},{"start":21156.988,"end":21181.459,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳"},{"start":21184.548,"end":21210.185,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":21216.075,"end":21239.83,"text":"這裏有一個很重要的地方,就是這裏"},{"start":21242.881,"end":21243.361,"text":"這裏是一座大廈。"},{"start":21270.038,"end":21270.538,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳。"},{"start":21296.527,"end":21303.274,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":21320.751,"end":21323.975,"text":"我也是,因為吃太多了"},{"start":21401.567,"end":21404.241,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":21555.572,"end":21576.692,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":21591.377,"end":21611.448,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們有請王安祥委員質詢好 感謝主席有請這個國防部一位顧部長好像你有要工還有這個經濟部好 請國防部跟經濟部"},{"start":21618.527,"end":21644.096,"text":"好 那我先就叫國防部因為那時候我們在審這個1.25教育的時候其實我們就希望國防部給我們多資料那這次看起來這個新的這一次提的2100億大概就是這三類兩類的無人機跟一類的無人艇那時候其實我們也拿到一些相關我們建軍的一些資料"},{"start":21646.338,"end":21665.037,"text":"其實我那時候就提到對於徵收跟供給協定無人機兩類其實那個時候我們就發現它的作區跟氣氛的時間非常短不曉得現在還是沿用上次的站規這樣的一個想法不知道國防部有沒有什麼新的想法要說"},{"start":21665.854,"end":21690.543,"text":"現在文件的部分我們還是維持原版就是原來的嘛吳仁廷的部分本來好像要透過做違規並沒有做這兩項現在是不是有新的你們有做什麼細分之類的東西嗎吳仁廷的部分我們目前送行政院在做複審已經送出去了有新的資料"},{"start":21691.465,"end":21711.921,"text":"因為前面的部分是主要針對我們的規格需求跟國內產能的部分我們有跟委員報告先做一個先期性的評估確認國內的技術備變水準跟產制的期程有辦法滿足我們的需求之後再針對我們的建案文件去做確立那現在在過去"},{"start":21713.562,"end":21740.711,"text":"這將近半年多的時間我們這個部分已經大概完全都確認完了所以後面的維修訂完之後我們就送行政院做複審所以市長這個資料也可以提供我們這邊做一下參考如果可以的話期程資料可以提供委員參考但這個整規書有跟您報告過因為那是機密我知道我知道我的意思就是因為本來這裡我這裡是那個都還沒有那個時候還沒有這個我們也可以跟方委員更新好"},{"start":21741.391,"end":21752.681,"text":"那另外就是說我們那個時候有就是上次其實主要是軍售的部分那其實還有很多的部分那是不是可以說明一下為什麼這一次會特別挑這三類出來"},{"start":21755.752,"end":21769.407,"text":"針對這三個項目的這個部分我們有幾個考量點第一個它的額度很大是第二個它的執行的期程很短它是在6年內然後要完成這2100億的無人採聚的採購是"},{"start":21773.231,"end":21802.444,"text":"那所以如果勉強擠進去公務預算的話形同一年大概要加將近400億左右因為第一年的額度會相對比較低所以在後面的五年形成每年大概400多億的增加那之前有個委員報告過因為我們在1.25兆特別預算裡面還有一共有10個項目是沒有納到我們的類似的特別預算裡面所以這個部分"},{"start":21803.328,"end":21824.615,"text":"我們針對那些部份執行期程比較長額度比較低對於我們預算衝擊比較小的我們會採取我們目前在由行政院研議是採取追加或是採取編列116年公務預算的方式來做那時候講的是這樣嗎因為你們很快的又用這個特別條例丟出來那我再多問一點就現在有兩型無人機一個無人艇"},{"start":21827.896,"end":21842.752,"text":"那因為這個我們今天也是聯席啊那因為這個看起來關乎這個版本也是行政院出來這個版本也是在講產業嘛在講一些據論我們等一下再來處理那這幾行不曉得關乎你們的要求你們是還是覺得應該要就是軍規"},{"start":21845.474,"end":21858.846,"text":"還是可以部分的這個軍用的相規的部分剛剛也有好我聽到也有其他的委員在問這個問題因為這個涉及到包括你要求的這個requirement不大一樣那不曉得現在這三類你們現在的想法是什麼"},{"start":21859.994,"end":21886.584,"text":"官員有關於濱海徵收型、濱海攻擊型無人機還有小型自殺無人艇的這個部分是它事實上在國內外的分類裡面它都介於居民通用的類型是所以我才會問這個問題可是它的那個所有的附屬裝備包含它的通信、導航、抗干擾跟其他籌載的那個部分是全部必須按照軍規的標準是"},{"start":21887.424,"end":21901.371,"text":"所以我想因為這樣子所以今天我們就做聯席其實就是因為現在這個無人機的部分其實跟傳統我們過去軍購的部分那個要求唯一要軍規可能不大一樣可能有部分就是商規軍用的部分剛剛的那個市長的意思應該是這樣"},{"start":21902.852,"end":21917.923,"text":"所以這個就是很大的不一樣所以因為在國防部這次國防部的報告裡面我就叫一下經濟部因為剛剛我聽到前面很多委員在講這個事情因為這其實在國防部的報告裡面在第三頁的部分"},{"start":21918.363,"end":21930.391,"text":"還有提到非常多說他們這個希望能夠通過這樣的預算可以擴大國內產業鏈的佈局跟完整性還有透過國內什麼無人機相關的產業區剛剛很多人問我不曉得經濟部對於國防部這樣他們的說明經濟部你們覺得你們的comment是什麼"},{"start":21937.557,"end":21944.405,"text":"當然就是說有這一筆長期穩定的採購的訂單跟預算的話對我們國內的無人機的產業聚落或產業鏈的發展會是更加的具有韌性而且那個產能"},{"start":21955.758,"end":21968.613,"text":"以及包括未來它的這個在地化的能量的建構我覺得那個是有很大的加分對 剛剛你很多人問嘛就是經濟部怎麼樣跟國防部合作因為看起來大家一直對這個產業"},{"start":21970.455,"end":21987.332,"text":"包括這些 我們現在是軍事喔 國防上的一些需求 或者是預算可以讓我們國內的產業 包括產業鏈 能夠更勃勃的發展不曉得這個經濟部 剛剛很多人在問這個事情怎麼樣跟國防部協助 讓真正國內的廠商得到一些協助的機會"},{"start":21988.954,"end":22011.765,"text":"其實如果我早上有提到就是說我們跟國安部這邊我們會針對他們未來這個軍購的這個需求的部分有哪些技術有可能未來我們國內這邊會有缺口的部分我們會先做輔導那這個部分所以市長對於軍規跟商規的軍用您的看法呢"},{"start":22012.525,"end":22032.384,"text":"當然我們現在是發展軍民通用這樣的一個技術跟無人機那所以這些規格其實不管是經濟部或國安部你希望的自治率是多少當然我們現在以目前來講國產化的比例的話小型的已經達到七成然後中型已經達到七成譬如說這一次的這個國安部體的這個"},{"start":22035.587,"end":22063.761,"text":"他是完全要在地化就是要百分之百能夠在地化採購所以能夠達到略考你喔 甚至百分之百對OK 好 感謝那個中科院最後一點時間啦那個講到無人艇中科院在嗎講到無人艇就會講到我們的會企你們那個不好意思喔 最後這個問題他們回答一下就好你們那個你們現在會企的那個避障的實力可以達到多少任何多少"},{"start":22064.837,"end":22093.033,"text":"幣帳的話我們目前都是你們的會企啊對 Level 3 到 Level 4沒有辦法到 Level 5 嗎?Level 5 的話就是全支出目前我們還在跟國外在做合作所以對這次官部這個問題你們有什麼看法?如果我們有機會的話我們當然是會跟國內外的廠商來合作來符合整個國內的這個標準跟這個作戰需求好 那我們希望大家一起來努力啦 以上"},{"start":22096.562,"end":22097.723,"text":"謝謝主席 經濟部 國防部有請好 請經濟部跟國防部"},{"start":22118.697,"end":22145.169,"text":"兩位午安 這個我們耐心的總統7月9號出席這個台灣卓越無人機海外商機大聯盟大會室的這個活動說要將台灣打造成亞洲無人機產業中心然後成立這樣的一個目標透過整合產官學成立國家隊 又來了讓台灣在供應鏈上佔有關鍵地位那麼經濟部跟工研院會持續的為台灣無人機產業推動包含飛鴻供應鏈還有資訊安全等等認證工作"},{"start":22146.65,"end":22172.921,"text":"這些工作總統特別強調非常重要因為飛航空知衛星導航等等都是很機敏的部分所以說一定要有飛鴻供應鏈的認證政府也會來協助相關的一些認證那現在要打造無人機國家隊請問經濟部是不是針對台灣無人機產業在國際上整個的發展性我們在供應鏈中的地位會遇到什麼樣的挑戰跟機會有沒有完整的研究"},{"start":22174.261,"end":22194.644,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們現在的機會就是飛鴻因為現在很多民族陣營國家他們要的就是飛鴻的產品那台灣就是必須要把握住這次的這個機會能夠在這個飛鴻供應鏈的這個產制上面我們要能夠讓台灣的廠商要能夠提升他的這個飛鴻"},{"start":22196.206,"end":22212.564,"text":"所以我想你經濟部的角色非常重要我等一下再講為什麼特別重要因為我為什麼講說問你在產業鏈裡面的一個角色因為這無人機一台無人機大家講說這是一個機器但它其實這大家也知道嘛在這個全球化的時代這每一個產品它其實背後是非常非常破碎的"},{"start":22213.264,"end":22241.983,"text":"這個無人機產業從晶片、PCB、馬達、磁鐵、感測器、影像模組、通訊模組非公認體到雲端服務它可能都從不同的廠商來做提供嘛那你在做也許是做整合對不對但是這麼多的廠商比如說當單就的經紀人料耗來講好幾百個一台無人機還有好幾百個料耗那每一個背後可能又有好幾層的供應商所以這是供應鏈的一個狀況我現在要問這個次長剛剛直接講了嘛說我們的機會就在於所謂的非紅供應鏈"},{"start":22243.124,"end":22257.965,"text":"那我就問一問定義因為我覺得這事要講要玩玩真的要講就講清楚這個台翔航太工業的總經理曾經投書講說業者常常提的問題啊就現在無人機要發展的問題啊說晶片設計在歐美"},{"start":22259.207,"end":22274.299,"text":"封測在中國大陸它算不算飛鴻供應鏈呢馬達是台廠製造但是它的原料使用了中國大陸的原料它算不算是飛鴻供應鏈呢它的韌體開發用了國際的開源專案但是維護者如果這個工程師啊是陸級的工程師那它又算不算飛鴻供應鏈呢"},{"start":22275.62,"end":22297.568,"text":"因為這些東西它都講它是業界這個忠實反應的實際上的業界現實嘛但是這個東西跟我們政府高調的宣傳的飛鴻供應鏈跟你剛剛講的是我們的亮點它其實顯然在出現一些衝突在這個場合我們在進入實質條文審查等等過程之前我想我們政府態度很明確的既然要飛鴻是不是要飛鴻到底剛剛講的這些算不算抵觸了飛鴻供應鏈的觀點 請回答"},{"start":22299.048,"end":22322.274,"text":"我跟委員報告這個飛鴻的產品的標準工程會已經有訂一套指引那我們目標就是2027年開始就要完全公務採購的無人機都要達到飛鴻的這樣的一個產品所以剛剛他講的這三項其實都抵觸了對不對也就是到2027之後就不能再出現這樣的狀況對 我們就是要follow這個工程會的指引"},{"start":22324.281,"end":22352.097,"text":"我之所以今天國防部要站在旁邊原因就是這樣就曾經啊我們在討論國防產業發展條例的時候也出現過這樣子的一個辯證對不對當初啊在討論的時候這個19條啊院版當初的國防產業發展條例19條就有所謂的例外條款因為他是這樣說的他說這個軍品研發產自維修的關鍵零組件跟原料不得來自於大陸地區香港澳門或其居民團體法人機構等等"},{"start":22353.137,"end":22381.85,"text":"這個但經特殊需要經主管機關同意者不在此限也就是有一個後門條款有一個認定的這樣子的一個條款那這樣的條款今天也不是我講這個事而已當初在討論這個條款的時候包含現在都在網路上都新聞媒體上都赫赫有名的這兩位之前當初是立法委員的一位是現在的劉世芳部長當初他是立法委員一位是我們國外外交的同僚王定宇委員都針對這樣子的安排啊提出了強烈的質疑嘛"},{"start":22382.31,"end":22407.186,"text":"因為你講你現在要貫徹飛鴻供應鏈然後你今天又開一個後門有一個所謂的例外條款那不是很糟糕嗎這王定宇委員甚至講啊如果我們的武器到最後是可以有所謂的例外條款那這個武器萬一受到所謂的長臂管轄或者是受到所謂的卡脖子的這樣一個狀況的時候那我們的武器的取得跟產製等等它就會立刻陷入瓶頸這講法其實是有道理的嘛那麼有道理的時候就當然挑戰這樣的一個說法但是到了最後啊"},{"start":22407.586,"end":22430.74,"text":"到最後三讀的時候這個所謂的後門條款跟霸王條款它依然通過了國防部要不要講解一下為什麼我先跟我們報告一下也可以沒關係2027年之後就沒有這個所謂的後門條款或是您剛剛提到的這個附帶什麼樣的條件完全就是要這個費用的這個產品的認定是很絕對的國防部要補充一下嗎是"},{"start":22432.81,"end":22441.63,"text":"第一個就是當然我們會follow這個經濟部這邊所還有那個工程會那邊所訂出來的標準那至於我們的需求我請那個站櫃司司長做個說明好"},{"start":22444.052,"end":22464.301,"text":"基本上我們針對主要零件的這個部分採購是這邊它有一個一到五類的分析標準那只要跟資安通訊有關的東西那是絕對禁止的但是在過去的幾年之間我們可以看得到的是某一些重要的零件比如發生在美國F35"},{"start":22466.422,"end":22486.11,"text":"戰機的這個事情他們就爭論了很久那如果當初他主要是發動機上面的電磁鐵對他出現的那個礦稀土嘛其實大家都知道嘛所以那像這類的東西就必須要經過特別認證那這個也會由產工室這邊依照他的分類標準來做查查"},{"start":22489.763,"end":22512.66,"text":"國防採購室主任現在委員在報告我們現在所有的採購的軍品我們要分五類分五類也分級包含禁原料禁原件到禁廠牌那剛剛講的以無人機為例無人機它是軍事用途所以我們是禁到原件和廠牌都不行"},{"start":22513.602,"end":22534.097,"text":"這是很明確的那因為國防產業法的條例那是之前訂的但是我們在113年8月30號有訂了一個國軍採購禁用入港澳產品認定及履約驗收指導做法那裡面清楚的明訂把那個剛剛我講的那五類啊明訂都很清楚好我先請經濟部再回來一下你看"},{"start":22535.23,"end":22553.083,"text":"這個我之所以要把這話講清楚的原因就在這個地方嘛經濟部講說這個未來會變成亮點好那你姑且講說有一個2027的標準但你旁邊這幾位國防部的這個當然也是基於啊務實的發展的考量他必須要做分級等等的一些配套的一些措施啊所以我是強烈建議政府在宣傳的時候啊這個不要胡說八道啊"},{"start":22553.483,"end":22582.302,"text":"因為顯然現實上有問題我之所以一定要把這問題提出來其實理路是一致的如果這樣子的一個安排或你們想要創造的亮點跟現實的產業鏈的現實現況產生嚴重的漢格跟衝突的時候或者是你讓北京有介入的風險的時候它其實立刻會造成整個產業鏈的打擊我們現在要投入大筆的資源花長期的計畫來做這件事情如果在中間遇到這樣的狀況這個風險政府是有責任要把它講清楚的今天這邊只是詢答而已我們話大概講到這裡"},{"start":22583.443,"end":22609.871,"text":"對不對 無人機零組件到底使用如果我們現在在講 現在這一段的話相關的一些資料跟客觀的一些標準我要請這個相關的部會經濟部也好 國防部也好會後先做一個提供經濟部也要跟國防部好好了解一下當初這個東西的來龍去脈是什麼不要說他講得很大聲實際上他其實我這裡要開後門 那裡要開後門而且我為什麼強調這個標準一定要客觀要清楚的原因是什麼如果到最後大家講這個東西講不下去還是要獲悉你說那我們交給主管機關來認證政府說我會來幫你認證"},{"start":22612.452,"end":22638.697,"text":"那我必須要講一句很不客氣的那不會變成有關係就沒關係嗎我跟你關係特別好的時候認證剛好就對我很有利對不對它反而影響了整個產業發展的公信力然後又造成了所謂是不是有綠油油等等的這樣一些質疑也好或者是批評也好這些都會對於我們好好的發展無人機產業它造成負面的影響所以我們今天醜話一定要說在前頭嘛尤其是費用供應鏈的這一部分如何避免受到這個長臂管轄或者是影響"},{"start":22640.057,"end":22665.335,"text":"你在這樣子的一個過程中你如何做一定的取捨標準怎麼樣透明而且客觀可以接受大家的檢驗這三個大目標其實是經濟部跟國防部今天會後要把它整理好好不好在法條審理之前要跟大部分的委員我關心這個事的委員今天很多委員也有關心這個事來做更詳細的溝通跟說明可以嗎好 因為時間有限我們就講到這裡就好謝謝好 謝謝劉啟庭委員謝謝齊王首長"},{"start":22666.601,"end":22691.957,"text":"王宏威王宏威王宏威委員接下來我們請黃建斌委員執行好謝謝主席我們有請國防部我們請國防部委員好副總長好"},{"start":22694.406,"end":22702.755,"text":"這個我們行政院所提這次這個國防自主無人載具採購特別條例的草案規劃是從2026年8月到2031年12月逐年籌編上線新台幣2100億元是採購這個濱海兼徵型的無人機"},{"start":22711.624,"end":22734.745,"text":"兵海攻擊型的無人機以及小型自殺無人艇那這個目的是在於強化不對稱戰力還有我們國防自主與防衛韌性那本席先把立場講清楚面對區域的安全情勢增高那現在戰爭的形態快速改變無人載具當然是我們國軍不對稱戰力的重要的一環那"},{"start":22737.194,"end":22763.184,"text":"國軍該補的戰力本席支持那該加速的建軍本席也支持那但是呢但是支持國防也不代表說我們立法院要交出我們的監督權那支持國軍也不代表行政部門可以拿情勢急迫這四個字就要求用2100億元買一張沒有細項沒有里程碑也沒有退場機制的空白支票我想今天本席會長要問"},{"start":22764.384,"end":22792.812,"text":"我們今天要問的不是要不要國防而是這筆錢我們該怎麼花何時能夠形成戰力那時程如何來規劃那為什麼本席會這樣子問就是因為我們過去國軍在反無人機系統的採購上已經出現非常非常清楚的這個警訊那我們陸軍曾經以新台幣約大概9.8億去採購26套固定式或陣地式無人機反制系統那原本要部署在這個外海外島跟這個重要的據點"},{"start":22793.832,"end":22807.611,"text":"那結果驗收跟復驗卻都不能夠達到這個6公里增貨4公里外成功干擾的性能要求甚至傳出這個商用無人機穿越防線那部長這個"},{"start":22810.369,"end":22826.752,"text":"這個不是小瑕疵這個是第一線防空防衛可能開天窗的問題那我想這也不是文書作業延宕那是花了人民的納稅錢卻沒有形成集戰的問題所以我想要請副總長直接來回答說"},{"start":22827.873,"end":22856.652,"text":"面對先前固定是無人機反制系統的驗收沒有過的教訓這一次的特別條例有沒有把性能測試分階段驗收還有實戰情境的測評以及履約管理還有違約處理跟重新招標的機制寫清楚有沒有是 鮑委員這一次的這個特別條例是主要是根據我們國防部的作戰需求而來作戰需求裡頭就已經考慮到相關的事項"},{"start":22858.714,"end":22876.648,"text":"絕對不是一張空白支票因為通過特別條例之後我們要依據特別條例編列特別預算特別預算要送到大院來審查所以說絕對不是項目內容都不清楚的一張空白支票不是剛剛提到這五箱油有寫在這裡面嗎這五箱油嗎"},{"start":22879.03,"end":22900.485,"text":"這個部分跟委員說明一下就是我們針對這五行無人機的這個部分在去年九月份跟十月份分別遭對外遭做了兩次遭傷說明然後也跟國內的業界做過很充分的研討那針對委員講的這個部分我們部裡面部長在召集"},{"start":22901.326,"end":22925.044,"text":"相關的研討會的時候市長也做了非常清楚的綠定那所以包含我們履約的時候必須要規範哪些項目測評的標準是什麼然後未來必須達到的需求是什麼使用什麼樣的零件這些都跟包含工研院在內的有關單位做過非常綿密的研討市長 副市長其實本期講的問題是我們不希望看到那種先編預算的後補規格"},{"start":22928.266,"end":22940.034,"text":"然後驗收不過最後才又是什麼依法處理我們不要再看到這種東西了因為其實我想這個都是人民人的納粹錢我相信早上一整個早上很多人都提到這件事情那"},{"start":22941.121,"end":22957.825,"text":"好 那接下來我想時間也有一些我就繼續再問接下來就是說那我還要再請教部裡面就是說我們特別預算不能變成長期維運的後門像無人載具不是買了它就結束了因為後續要包括什麼它有電池 彈藥 籌載 通訊軟體的更新 維修的保養"},{"start":22963.306,"end":22979.981,"text":"還有庫存輪替操作訓練跟消耗補充等等長期的成本所以這邊請副總統來說明說這2100億提出的2100億裡面哪一些是一次性戰力的建置哪些是維保哪些是訓練軟體更新消耗補充"},{"start":22982.079,"end":23008.798,"text":"那如果說那第三年以後還要依消耗的狀況繼續來採購這些是不是會回歸到年度預算接受常態的審查還是說今天用特別預算開了這個門明天就把常態違運的這些費用通通都塞到特別預算裡面去方委員這個跟委員解要說明一下就是我們這一次的這三行的無人載具的部分主要是"},{"start":23009.986,"end":23028.085,"text":"採購我們戰備急需的數量那至於後續的訊號然後後勤為保的需求庫儲的整建跟其他相關的項目是以公務預算的方式來執行那有一部分事實上已經在去年通過的國土安全任性預算裡面已經開始做了處理了"},{"start":23029.862,"end":23054.833,"text":"好 謝謝市長的說明市長其實本席會要求就是說這些費用你要把它都列清楚不要發生就是到時候我們的費用一直在膨脹因為整個預算的最大問題還是在養護上面好 那接下來我想要再請教就是說因為我早上也有聽到其他委員提到就是因為現在科技進步得太快技術變得太快那我們有沒有去考慮到會不會未來買到過時的這些裝備"},{"start":23058.815,"end":23082.793,"text":"那國民宅局的這個技術演變的極快然後從籌載抗干擾到通訊鏈路AI辨識到軟體定義作戰這些可能都在數年內發生重大的變化我想要再請教國防部就是說本案是不是有做滾動式的調整分批驗證停損機制還有替代的採購機制以及定期向立法院報告的義務那如果說"},{"start":23083.934,"end":23094.485,"text":"未來我們採購期間技術已經落後了那國防部有沒有權力要求停止改規格或換平台那如果廠商交付的系統跟戰場有需求脫節的話那誰要來負責停損"},{"start":23097.589,"end":23121.125,"text":"幫委員這個部分先從後面這一段講這個部分是我們在訂約的時候會把它放在裡面當成一個要求的條款就是因為我們無人機的主要的組成包含飛控導航通訊的這些部分它主要都是晶片跟模組更換那所以在必要做模組更換的時候我們會要求廠商來進行模組更換來跟上迭代的速度"},{"start":23121.545,"end":23140.155,"text":"那另外的部分就是針對軟體的部分也納到我們的履約規定裡面就是廠商必須要有能力去幫我們後面做軟體更新讓它不會落後那它才符合我們的這個要求那這個當然是我們後續獲得預算之後進入預約程序的時候會把它納到我們的那個條約裡面"},{"start":23141.651,"end":23158.385,"text":"謝謝市長的說明市長這是副總統和市長本席再次強調說我想國防建設是不能拖那無人載具的能力也確實要補但是因為它越是重大越是急迫越是龐大的國防預算我們就越不能用模糊授權的方式來通過那國防預算要快"},{"start":23159.085,"end":23177.979,"text":"也要準要有效率要更可以來監督要支持國軍也要防止人民的納稅錢變成驗收失敗的代價因此這邊本席要具體的要求就是國防部還有相關部會在委員會審查前要提出幾項資料第一個就是反無人機的這個系統驗收檢討報告"},{"start":23180.04,"end":23204.381,"text":"那第二個就是一次性採購跟長期維運經費評估統計資料我想這兩個資料先具備好我們再來繼續來討論那以上謝謝市長謝謝副總長謝謝主席好謝謝黃建斌委員謝謝金管所長林思明林思明林思明委員不在我們接下來請李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":23213.581,"end":23226.646,"text":"好 謝謝主席我剛才潛意識地想要跑到三樓三樓的這個國防委員會後來發現說這個是經濟部在阻損的所以又跑到二一樓我們請這一個我想請那個黃市長請黃市長對 我之前好像都是問他比較多好 那個我們經濟部何市長您也stand by 一下"},{"start":23241.167,"end":23253.195,"text":"請教一下市長我們這一次在這一個行政院版本主要是要買這三項這個濱海尖針型、濱海攻擊型無人機還有這一個小型自殺無人艇主要這三項"},{"start":23255.256,"end":23268.731,"text":"而這三項就是說6年2100億的這個預算是不是好那這三項先請問一下這三項都是國內的廠商都可以生產是都可以生產包園這個部分我們已經就"},{"start":23270.473,"end":23296.449,"text":"無人機的部分是去年9月跟11月做過兩次招商說明然後也跟國內的廠商大概有200多家參加的這些廠商了解過他們的技術備變水準然後有哪些項目是他們必須要引進的做過深入研討智商無人艇的部分是在今年3月份的時候做了第一次的招商說明那經過檢討之後在5月份的時候他們又跟"},{"start":23297.53,"end":23315.366,"text":"國內的廠商去做過討論就是目前無人艇的部分也有很多家包含Matek跟Sonic這些外國的知名廠商表達有意願跟國內的廠商合作來共同生產無人艇所以主要就是要投資國內的廠商就對了嘛"},{"start":23316.227,"end":23335.288,"text":"那國內廠商也有這個能力嗎是有這個能力但是呢這個有一些比較高階的一些光電的徵收的系統啊抗干擾的系統啊AI的系統啊或是說這個遠端的這個自動的控制軟體等等之類的國內廠商有這個技術嗎還是要跟美國合作"},{"start":23335.868,"end":23361.562,"text":"包委員這個部分我們會分階段來走因為剛剛經濟部他們也提到就是目前我們國內包含非控跟通信的某一些晶片跟關鍵零組件是還沒有辦法完全自製的但是這個關係到初期投資的問題這些重要的關鍵零組件都必須要有龐大的初期投資才有辦法建立本土的自製能量"},{"start":23362.082,"end":23368.922,"text":"那所以我們如果沒有給廠商足夠的商機跟誘因要他去做如此龐大的投資可能會有所困難好"},{"start":23369.967,"end":23398.306,"text":"這些技術是國內廠商就算我們給他長訂單大量的訂單那國內廠商有辦法自己去處理那還是要跟美國來合作他們必須要跟初期階段一定要跟國外的廠商合作那所以在去年到今年的多個美國的高階無人系統的技術團體來這邊表達他們的意願的時候這個技術的導入引進跟在地化也是雙方討論的一個主軸"},{"start":23400.568,"end":23413.325,"text":"所以我們要買的不是只有國內廠商的這些無人機無人體其實我們也是要引進美國的一些技術美國還有歐洲美國還有歐洲這些技術進來我覺得這才是一套的就是說"},{"start":23416.889,"end":23443.317,"text":"我們藉由長班大量訂單讓國內的廠商有機會來做這些無人機無人艇但是呢一些比較高階的我們可能還是要仰賴不論是你剛剛講美國或是歐洲的一些技術上面的合作但是有這些合作的話那或許幾年之後我們有辦法自己來做生產那再請教一下這個行政版本我知道是要買這三項那在野黨的版本你知道是要買哪幾項嗎"},{"start":23445.934,"end":23473.808,"text":"因為在野黨的兩個版本他主要的重點是產業發展所以他的著墨的地方並不在於要採購哪些項目而是採取什麼樣的這個步驟跟手段來促成產業那至於比如說國民黨版的這個部分他只有講說後續有關於軍用的無人系統的採購的這個部分會由國防部來執行所以並沒有明確的說明"},{"start":23474.788,"end":23500.594,"text":"對啊 所以我看兩個黨的版本在野黨的版本就是說不知道要明確要買哪些東西那對廠商來講你如果不知道確定是要買哪些東西的話那他們也不知道說要怎麼樣去配合去生產哪些東西啊那另外就是說因為我們這個是攸關我們的這個不對稱的作戰的戰力的需求所以有時間上面的急迫性啊那如果按照這個在野黨的版本來看的話"},{"start":23501.773,"end":23529.235,"text":"發展產業固然重要把台灣變成無人載具的一個重要的生產國家 這很重要但是呢 緩不濟急因為我們要的是不對稱戰力所以我看了這兩版本似乎是想要把它去軍事化去軍事化就是當然產業發展是很重要但是呢 在作戰需求這方面沒有達到我們國防部的要求"},{"start":23531.41,"end":23549.809,"text":"就我們目前看不出來他裡面有針對這段做琢磨好那我請市長啦因為他們是比較著重這個產業發展那產業發展我們經濟部目前有沒有在做啊當然有在做我們從112年就開始在協助產業發展這個無人機的相關的一些零組件"},{"start":23550.35,"end":23555.814,"text":"還有這個整機的部分到目前為止剛剛提到說有些這個技術缺口的部分我們還是一樣透過法人科專業界科專再來協助我們產業來補足這樣的一個缺口所以這一次的這個國防的這個無人機的這個採購其實很短期之內有一些零組件可能還是需要從外購但是我想應該很快的時間我們就可以把這樣的一個缺口把補齊"},{"start":23578.388,"end":23593.889,"text":"所以看起來這個在野黨的這個版本比較是未來經濟部或是以前已經有在做的未來也要持續在做的事情嘛是但我覺得那個目標不太一樣啦就是說你當然長期來做是OK啊但是我比較"},{"start":23594.83,"end":23608.84,"text":"Concern 就是說目前我們的這個戰力的問題為什麼我們現在要編這2100億的特別預算就是因為我們在1.25兆特別預算裡面所有關無人機的預算全部都被砍掉了所以我們才有提這一個再補一個2100億的特別預算過來"},{"start":23611.922,"end":23627.933,"text":"那結果如果還是把它變成一個產業發展的這個模式來做的話 反不及急啦就是說當中國的這個他們的戰力一直在提升我們想要用這個不對稱作戰的一個方式至少大家有一個可以一個稍微對抗的一個力量"},{"start":23628.433,"end":23638.639,"text":"那看起來如果按照在野黨的版本來看是沒有這個沒有這個方向要去做啊對 而且說真的我們現在已經有一個統籌型統籌型的這個計畫已經在這個協助這個整個產業界他們在不管是從這個技術研發上面"},{"start":23646.423,"end":23660.654,"text":"或是說我們未來在怎麼樣能夠進行一些非策的場域的部分能夠測試無人機的性能這部分其實很多面向的一起來協助整個產業的一個發展所以災黨他們所提出來的內容其實我們在統修運營計畫裡面都已經涵蓋了"},{"start":23669.781,"end":23691.695,"text":"都已經有涵蓋了我認為他們是比較騙成是你們現在已經有在做這些計畫了那其實在野黨的這個版本是可以跟你們經濟部這邊我覺得可以再去討論但是如果是講到不對稱作戰的話我覺得還是要以我們行政院的版本為主那我再請教一下黃市長"},{"start":23693.998,"end":23708.279,"text":"這個我們對於無人載具的作戰的需求是什麼就是說我們把這一次我們這一次要採購的這些無人機也好無人這個艇也好我們把它是當成一個是戰術的消耗品呢"},{"start":23708.78,"end":23724.508,"text":"那還是把它當成是一個產業的發展來做一個扶持它有兩個我先講一個最關鍵的那1446架濱海尖尖型無人機我們前面的所有的軍購案如果沒有這些無人機它的效用會非常的低"},{"start":23725.248,"end":23739.194,"text":"因為沒有目獲就沒有辦法打中目標這是一個基本邏輯那至於攻擊型跟自殺無人艇的這個部分當然是來輔助我們既有的這個攻擊手段來讓它的效果能夠更好"},{"start":23740.778,"end":23766.358,"text":"對 那所以說這個所謂攻擊型的無人機跟這一個自殺型的無人體它基本上是屬於一個戰士的消耗品對 那消耗品就是要大量的製造嘛 大量的生產那這個就是希望說我們廠商有這個能力萬一啦 真的要作戰的時候我們廠商有這個能力大量的生產 大量的製造然後呢 發揮這個類似這個地獄景象的這一種作戰那個模式嘛 這個就是"},{"start":23767.238,"end":23772.82,"text":"那跟在野黨他們所想要的他們又要提這個什麼產業的發展的綱領啊還要找這個產業界啊來做這個規劃怎麼樣的所以我看是兩種不一樣的一個發展趨勢啊就是兩個不一樣的方式兩個不一樣啊對啊這兩個不一樣我不曉得為什麼可以"},{"start":23784.584,"end":23809.833,"text":"這個把它擺在同一個籃子裡面來談這會變得有點雞頭鴨腳產業的發展經濟部這邊目前已經有在做的那持續有在做但是我更關心就是我們不對稱作戰的能力有沒有辦法藉由這一次的這個特別的預算來做提升那如果沒有辦法藉由這一次的這個預算來提升的話那變成說我們國防的需求"},{"start":23811.089,"end":23833.588,"text":"在短時間裡面關於不對稱作戰這方面我們就整個是跟這個中國比起來我們就整個是落後了啊對 這個會受到非常大的影響好 謝謝好 謝謝主席謝謝坤城委員羅美玲 羅美玲 羅美玲委員再來我們就要請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":23843.14,"end":23868.744,"text":"我們請經濟部次長請經濟部委員好次長好 次長這一檔的2400億的這個部分它是一般公務預算那在這個一般公務預算裡面它有提到的一些跟產業振興的概念的部分那跟我們的無人載具的"},{"start":23869.424,"end":23882.128,"text":"之前有一個產業振興相關的條款我看你們今天的書面報告組織總署也好經濟部的書面報告也好都有提到一個442億元的這個相關的無人載具投從計畫這個預計是14到19年來去投入442億元來給無人載具提供發展這2400億跟這個我們現有的442億的無人載具的這個產業發展計畫還有沒有雷同之處"},{"start":23899.325,"end":23921.179,"text":"裡面有一部分是會用在這個產業輔導的部分我想是雷同的啦也就是說我們現在已經有同酬型計畫已經在對產業已經在做輔導了而且裡面所提到所設計的這相關的獎勵啦或是租稅抵減投資的部分其實我們在產創條例裡面本來廠商現在就可以來"},{"start":23922.36,"end":23945.574,"text":"來應用這方面的這些相關的優惠所以在一檔所設計出來的這些條文裡面其實說真的現在不管是我們從收銀計畫還是現有的法規其實廠商都可以來依循這些政府所提供的這相關的這個輔導資源可以來使用好你剛剛提到的包含租稅還有一些財政上面的輔助等等的"},{"start":23946.295,"end":23957.934,"text":"那這個442億元已經有可能有重複的地方那有沒有不僅僅是重複會不會有抵觸的地方啊就是說已經這邊也有規定那你再另行規定的話那以哪一個為主"},{"start":23959.092,"end":23978.162,"text":"當然就是早上也有委員提到說會不會抵觸這個憲法就是說立法院應該只能審行政院提出來的預算那這次這個在院長的版本裡面有提到就是說他要編列這個預算這個是違憲的"},{"start":23981.864,"end":23999.643,"text":"我先不講到違憲我們先講到說假設已經有了無人載具產業發展統籌計畫裡面的條目跟他們提出來的計畫2400億的計畫裡面有互相重疊那一個比較多那一個比較少或者是相反一個比較少一個比較多的這個狀況之下是以哪一個為主啊"},{"start":24001.547,"end":24025.949,"text":"對 當然我們現在為了要趕快輔導產業的話我們當然就是以這個目前同收金計畫的這個推動為主那如果在野黨他提出2400億的話那是不是最好的方式如果他們真的想要對無人載具來提高他的這個投資提高我們的量能還有我們的產線那未來說民轉軍的時候在遇到國家緊急狀態的時候能夠擴增擴建的話"},{"start":24028.391,"end":24048.56,"text":"那是不是增加無人展區投球計畫的追加預算是不是也有幫助?其實在野黨他們是用公務預算的方式來編列公務預算其實會有幾個效果第一個可能預算編列的時候會有排擠的效果第二個也有可能預算會被刪減的問題"},{"start":24049.781,"end":24062.325,"text":"那第三個就是預算可能也有可能會被這個審查時程延宕的這個問題所以如果說國防部現在提出了這個特別預算的這個編列的話能夠讓廠商可以"},{"start":24066.046,"end":24081.811,"text":"看得到未來有一個很穩定的預算的一個編列而且他們也願意來投資或是說在研發者的工作上面能夠多做一些這方面的一個努力的話其實他們也比較願意做這方面的資本的一個投入"},{"start":24089.774,"end":24107.149,"text":"所以我想國安部的這樣的一個增加採購的能量的話我想對國內的無人機業者來講他們也比較能夠吃下一個定心丸他願意來投入這樣的一個長期的研發工作"},{"start":24109.69,"end":24136.71,"text":"那次長接下來我想要請教一下包含這個經濟部那還有我們的中科院的院長也可以那是不是要一起一併來我們就針對這個他們提到本土化的部分那本土化我們就進入更細節就是剛才提到的不管是我們的晶片也好還是說我們的一些主要的關鍵部產"},{"start":24138.43,"end":24144.1,"text":"我們現在本土化有辦法達到在野黨他們要求的這樣子的比例嗎"},{"start":24147.043,"end":24175.689,"text":"我中科院副院長跟委員報告就是我們有很多一些包含了關鍵零組件的本土化我們也希望能夠配合經濟部的統籌型企劃然後我們有一個多元運用方案也希望在那個裡面來去提升我們國內的技術水準對那現在在黨的提出來的版本裡面他有提出要在多少的百分比甚至說本土的這個關鍵部材或者是本土的零件比例要到幾%80%嘛所以最高是有他們的條例裡面"},{"start":24177.359,"end":24198.826,"text":"對 四年後要達到80%四年後要達到80%那現在有辦法完成這樣子的任務嗎其實我跟委員報告其實現在的話我們的統計就是一些小型無人機的話大概已經有70%可以達到國產化然後中型的話大概有六成可以達到我的意思是說這一檔提出來的這個目的是達到80%的話"},{"start":24200.467,"end":24227.478,"text":"那我擔心說在我們時間上面來不來得及我怕說時間上面如果來不及的話那等於是在把我們的產量等於是無法用其他國家我們是去中化嘛但是其他有盟的國家跟我們友善的國家跟我們互補的國家等於是我們要進這些重要的關鍵部材零組件來去完成我們無人機發展的這個目標那這樣怎麼辦是 所以我們也是比較擔心因為無人機的迭代的速度非常快啦"},{"start":24228.138,"end":24233.16,"text":"所以有一些零組件的部分有可能會產生就是說目前我們國內的話還是需要向國外來採購這個部分所以如果再去訂這個所謂國產化的這個比例的話就怕委員剛剛提到的這個問題我們會擔心他會有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":24248.783,"end":24272.391,"text":"好那接下來我們請國防部這個次長或者是副總長執行官也可以一起好想請教一下我們剛才有聽到應該不是我們仔細看一下這一檔的一些提案裡面有說分三地做生產的這個基地你們對這一個的看法跟意見如何"},{"start":24273.764,"end":24299.866,"text":"包委員這個有關於在野黨在他的條例裡頭所規定的這個地點我相信這個我們台灣各地都有相當多的廠商那我們的國防部門的條例重要的是要滿足最快的速度滿足我們的作戰需求所以說實際上我們是只要能夠符合我們作戰需求的我們都會去加以"},{"start":24301.127,"end":24327.04,"text":"這個採購納入我們的作戰序列那至於要由哪些地方強制分配到怎麼樣分配實際上就會造成我們在採購還有這個產業上發展上的這個失去的彈性反而不利於我們在這個國防快速戰力建立的目標好那最後一個問題我想請教就是說可是在分散生產這方面有它的道理在嗎"},{"start":24328.659,"end":24345.47,"text":"當然啦就任性來說的確如果我們的這個能夠分散能夠這個將這個利益這個國防產業的這個效益擴大到最大是有它的好處但是我們要強調必須先滿足我們的作戰需求"},{"start":24346.371,"end":24375.113,"text":"那因為這個要權衡一下這個我對這一點是有既有疑慮但是一方面又覺得說它分散的它能夠增強我們的韌性這件事情也是要納入考量所以這個部分可能要先做研究就是說如果我們的目標是追求韌性就是當一滴的生產被斷斷鏈了那接下來至少有其他地方可以作為備位的這個提供者那在暫時的時候這個又特別重要"},{"start":24376.021,"end":24393.741,"text":"可是在平時的話我們是要快速獲得這些能力快速獲得這些裝備所以理論上是要誰能夠生產我們就要做他的採購不管是在哪一區域所以平時跟暫時之間它是有不同的需求"},{"start":24394.722,"end":24407.25,"text":"但是我們現在又追求韌性所以我認為我們這部分可能跟在野黨要溝通一下說到底是怎麼樣權衡那特別是現在在陳平時期的話那我們是不是先不要"},{"start":24408.683,"end":24434.692,"text":"要這麼強硬的說要分這麼多地還是說他真的還是有他的必要性這個部分我覺得要溝通因為是有他的道理在剛才你有講有他的道理在但是也有他的缺陷在所以這個部分我們瞭解一下到底盤整一下到底夠不夠如果不夠的話就要跟在野黨來跟他們來去說服說因為現在的狀況陳平時期是真的不夠我們可以理解他們要在三個不同地區生產的這個看法"},{"start":24436.693,"end":24454.62,"text":"可是如果在陳平時期這樣的做法,似乎不是最好的做法,那這個部分就要來溝通一下,好不好?是,好,謝謝委員感謝陳慧婷委員的質詢接下來有請賴慧媛委員質詢賴慧媛委員,賴慧媛委員,賴慧媛委員不在"},{"start":24457.864,"end":24474.27,"text":"那接下來請王世堅委員質詢王世堅委員王世堅委員王世堅委員不在接下來有請侯育祥委員質詢好謝謝主席齁我們請這一個經濟部請經濟部長章偉好"},{"start":24496.701,"end":24521.187,"text":"好 我想我還是先停在這邊早上聽了那麼多有幾個我還是特別揪出來看一下第一個我們常聽國防部當早上顧部長或大家的說法就是一定要特別預算然後就表示說我一定會有長期的訂單"},{"start":24522.557,"end":24547.582,"text":"我會比較有這個整體性 不會延遲然後呢 也不會排擠那我只要特別講特別預算一定有它特別預算編列的原則那這一次無人機採購也不是什麼國防戰爭發生啦所以當然你們會凹啦反正這是國防啊 徵兵啊這個I don't care但是"},{"start":24548.618,"end":24574.424,"text":"你說不會排擠特別預算不會排擠一般的公務預算這是你從法條來講從我們人民的角度來看這都是我的納稅錢那也是錢別人的這個錢下去也是從我的納稅錢出來不是從你的口袋出來花別人的錢我們都要特別謹慎特別用"},{"start":24575.919,"end":24596.471,"text":"而不是花自己的錢 斤斤計較花別人的錢 花納稅人的錢好像很大方 要思考清楚所以我一直很覺得這種東西 我如果是一般的民眾老百姓 我覺得我管理特別預算 公務預算 那都是錢都是納稅錢 不可能憑空跑出來然後給特別預算 不會延遲這我也聽不懂我馬太安西考察了兩次 我們也是編了特別預算"},{"start":24606.733,"end":24631.481,"text":"進度有準時嗎?隨便舉的很多例子 我只是舉近期的嘛所以這一切 跟你什麼預算也沒關係啦跟你的執行力 有很大的關係啦國安部也順便聽啦 我沒有要叫你站起來就是這樣子啊好 再來你們講說 這沒有特別預算 廠商沒有單他不會想要投資"},{"start":24637.674,"end":24663.51,"text":"這也是很奇怪我問次長50多年前我們晶片台積電成立有特別預算嗎沒有對不對有國發基金的投資有台積電派人到美國寄轉回來先成立聯電再成立台積電經過50年技術深耕"},{"start":24666.553,"end":24670.596,"text":"只要有市場台灣的廠商絕對比你們這些部門都厲害我做產業發展這麼久也在產業待過市場有商機有廠商自然會投資廠商不是靠政府的訂單去養大的所以我聽你們這個謬論我都覺得莫名其妙沒有特別預算都可以發展那如果照你這樣講那我請問你AI重不重要"},{"start":24696.049,"end":24705.213,"text":"很重要我們是編新十大AI建設有特別預算嗎?沒有 我們只有AI基本法軟體產業 斬彈經營每次跟經濟部跟數碼部講說那你們要給我們一些預算什麼也沒有 我們還是這樣活我們還是可以外銷"},{"start":24723.271,"end":24730.177,"text":"我不是當個指導教授是旋風一 逆向工程有參與 旋風二 我在任何地方也有參與本來這個就是學研產業要能夠支撐所以我聽起來這些東西我都沒辦法接受然後"},{"start":24749.026,"end":24755.492,"text":"其實我跟院長出訪美國的時候很多人說我早上也聽了什麼陰謀論然後還可以扣什麼抗中保台新聞莫名其妙然後說我們在美國不支持回來台灣在美國表達很支持再回來台灣說這個用什麼什麼什麼年度預算去卡你錯"},{"start":24775.848,"end":24803.709,"text":"我在美國遇見所有的部會官員我表達立場都一樣本黨支持無人機UAV產業發展But我不支持編特別預算我支持編年度預算他沒有反論我他說I don't care反正就是要編嘛然後我希望你們台灣可以做UAV的發展充實我們的導電所以錢放哪裡"},{"start":24805.558,"end":24833.044,"text":"不重要 重要是我們要能夠做出來那 這我可以負責 這我講的我在美國部會 各位都是這樣講好 那我們整個來看我們以前在做這些的研發因為國安部說的 我也認同我們要國產化 因為它是國防供應所以基本上國防部供應的你是一個採購單位"},{"start":24835.342,"end":24863.539,"text":"如果我們按照軍民科技研發我們在技術師也是跟中科院不管你是軍規降額到商用或者是你軍規的使用需要一些關鍵區需要民間產業投入研發那我們就開啊我們經濟部、技術師這麼多對不對 包含有跟中科院、工研院軍工、製作會、國科會也有學校的老師、教授去投入相關的技術啊這都沒有問題啊"},{"start":24865.339,"end":24889.21,"text":"重點是你們的軍規的需求開出來餵給我們我們就可以來評估到底技術的缺口在哪裡啊如果現在的民間廠商做不出來就是法人科專下去啊民間的廠商可以做出來就是業界科專啊法人科專中間在做發現我國內技術不夠我們本來就可以從國外寄轉啊這些逆境都存在啊不然你怎麼達到國產化"},{"start":24896.076,"end":24916.329,"text":"剛剛你講公共工程委員會ABCDE的指引你如果去把公共工程委員會看出來它是訂的啊 訂了之後經濟部給我的迴韓式這個看作業單位 就是看使用單位嘛你要ABCDE哪一個你們各位去把公共工程委員會看清楚啊如果你國防部照你這樣的要求整機第一程一定是A嘛"},{"start":24918.442,"end":24936.993,"text":"然後之後你再看你的部分哪些是CD那如果照經濟部的回函在你無人機產業發展條例的時候在這個那個統籌型的計畫的時候那就是你國防部去定嘛那按照顧部長的要求就是整機包含所有零組件都是A本國製造"},{"start":24939.775,"end":24963.682,"text":"就這樣子但是我們經濟部這裡頭就要負責去快速的去把國產化的進度弄出來你們講的三金二元講的系統整合、機械硬體這些東西各位無人機就是一台會飛的PC我們台灣以前在做PC、做伺服器、做電腦這邊領主件有邊特別條例、特別預算嗎?沒有"},{"start":24972.079,"end":24994.969,"text":"所以我就覺得說如果你把我們台灣科技產業發展的條件來做既然你都說我們科技產業的硬體很好那就是照這樣的方式來做嘛所以我覺得放在經濟部去帶領這樣子的產業不管是法人、民間去滿足你國防部的軍規採購的需求就這樣子"},{"start":24995.868,"end":25019.553,"text":"拿出來之後我們廠商不管是計轉或者是他自有研發得出產品產品之後就進到符合國防部的需求國防部就是一個VMV的單位嘛我開規格完之後那你們這些民間廠商做出來你規格需求是你開的你要去做validation啊以前中科院包給我們在做也是這樣子啊"},{"start":25021.377,"end":25049.445,"text":"我也可以去 我也是審查過你們中科院的一些案子啊 當過審查委員啊所以我覺得都很正常自然重點是你們要照做預算要編 他也不會排擠啊 如果在賴總統5%的GDP夠啊不夠你就編嘛 編為什麼你們就會假設說我們在野黨一定會擋年度預算一定會擋公務預算 一定會像今天這樣子沒啊"},{"start":25053.867,"end":25080.166,"text":"這個預算一直沒有審視因為沒有人要編軍公教的警消條例行政預先不編啊三讀通過的東西不編啊邏輯順序都要搞清楚嘛那如果是商用的部分我也反對經濟部的回函說根據各部門的採購規範然後還有他特殊需求自己訂不用無論是商用的沒有那麼多差異性啊"},{"start":25081.579,"end":25093.625,"text":"巡航安全東西 臨時有差異性的話 頂多只是10%以內的差異我建議就是上政府共同供應採購區域上政府共同供應採購區域 經濟不做的那麼多 對不對在我們的軟採甚至跟台銀這邊 那你的資安檢測 費用供應檢測就可以在這個地方"},{"start":25100.548,"end":25119.181,"text":"這個不是牽扯到軍規軍規就是交給國防部對不對交給你們各軍種去驗是不是滿足你的規格商規的部分全部給我上政府共同供應採購契約就不會有教育部那種一萬就是一台只要一萬多塊你又要給我買到七萬多塊那算什麼特殊性 我有想嗎其實我不知道不要寫過AI傳統不要寫過群飛系統不要寫過AI控制這樣"},{"start":25129.13,"end":25155.437,"text":"所以我就覺得這種東西就是我為什麼會這樣子終結啦我不要耽誤太多時間或者是憋了很久今天我的看法我會跟林大華文很接近當我們今天國安部要求的就是這樣子的採購就是希望台灣自治國產化百分之百早上顧立雄部長說的"},{"start":25156.67,"end":25166.158,"text":"至於他是不是說太快還是你要分級我覺得這個日後再執行可以考慮因為我也知道你們的三經二卵你們的有些東西就是沒辦法"},{"start":25166.98,"end":25189.646,"text":"在明年所以你告訴我明年可以達到但我不認為我不認為所以這個早上也許他講太快你們國安部可以回去試看看是不是我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說國安部採購這個部分他是要達到全機飛鴻不是說全機都是國產因為全機國產目前來講確實是如同剛剛委員講的我們有一些技術缺口"},{"start":25194.847,"end":25217.33,"text":"有些關鍵女主席還是要從這個你知道嗎 報告次長 我告訴你啊在公共工程會採購這個A它有訂AVCD嘛你出去看喔 那個東西A完然後就跳到CD沒有一層是V的我也是覺得很奇怪公共工程會訂這個東西改天也是要你們去好好去研究一下我總覺得這件事情"},{"start":25218.837,"end":25246.21,"text":"然後呢你們442億除了研發之外到底能不能趕得上來國防部在裡頭來442億國防部你們佔多少錢除了這2100億之外國防部的442億裡面你們看你們各自部位編嘛送到經濟部會診啊國防部佔了80億80億嘛也是有錢嘛那如果你今天就像剛剛陳冠廷委員講的啊如果你錢不夠你就把它追加到這裡啊也行啊"},{"start":25247.284,"end":25272.398,"text":"但是你們要身為一個怎麼樣子去做這樣子的會診或什麼東西我就覺得就是執行力的問題所以我們才需要一個Committee來做好不好我語重心長就是因為我這整個參與過整個軍民科技的專案也參與過這樣子的技轉商轉的研發我希望就是參考這是我覺得是可以做的想法好不好好 謝謝委員"},{"start":25277.898,"end":25303.239,"text":"感謝侯英祥委員質詢然後感謝次長好 接下來我們請羅明財委員質詢主席各位初六席官員大家好主席可不可以請經濟部好 請經濟部侯次長國防部"},{"start":25305.953,"end":25326.222,"text":"國安部副總長執行官兩位一起我想市長今天聆聽了很多委員的發言你有沒有覺得其中的委員講得比較好的"},{"start":25330.191,"end":25346.657,"text":"我覺得委員都各有不同的角度啦那都是為了整個產業好像我剛剛覺得上一個講的紅委員他就是很專業啊我發現他講的比早上講的一些官員還好你回去不要跟部長講你有沒有覺得因為這個事情討論了以後"},{"start":25359.133,"end":25388.708,"text":"整個分開來看你就會發現它不是單一的說我要為了做而做打造護國神山沒有人反對啊那我請問你喔那台積電是護國神山以前有沒有編特別預算沒有沒有好那是由哪一座護國神山是因為編特別預算然後感覺有成功的"},{"start":25392.915,"end":25406.22,"text":"我跟委員報告這次編特別預算是因為國防部他們有這個國防自主的這樣的一個需求那這些需求本來國防部本來就是要採購的那如果說把這些採購的商機能夠留在國內的話我覺得對國內的產業事實上是有幫助的而且許多的國內產業他們也"},{"start":25416.003,"end":25432.107,"text":"看到這樣的一個長期的訂單的話就願意來加碼投資而且在研發的創新上面多做一些這個努力所以大概概念是國建國造啦大概概念就是說無人機就是我們自己造嘛這個大概這個意思吧是當然我們就是要發展自己的國防產業"},{"start":25438.809,"end":25463.158,"text":"其實我是很支持的因為我從小就是軍事迷啊對這個就跟足球一樣我不會踢足球但是足球也看得嚇嚇叫大家都覺得很精彩很有興趣我也希望下一個無人機的產業我們打世界盃嘛那就牽涉到一個金額的問題啊韓國最近"},{"start":25466.806,"end":25472.667,"text":"他為了要發展整個整體科技電子業的發展投入多少錢那個 次長投入多少沒有去瞭解大概是38兆就是最近的事啊他的涵蓋面更廣展現他們的信心啊所以你覺得"},{"start":25497.179,"end":25522.77,"text":"要發展無人機就從無人機的現狀開始說起請問全世界現在無人機做最好的是哪個品牌當然美國、法國都有無人機很好的這個品牌美國哪個牌子Anduria法國Hero"},{"start":25526.468,"end":25533.903,"text":"就大疆 民族的部分所以當然我們也不是說"},{"start":25536.215,"end":25564.958,"text":"自己妄自菲薄而是你去世界你世界有一些情況要去也問一下因為譬如說AI整個整體整理出來就是NVIDIA系統對不對AMD那整個你排列下來Google說Amazon周邊會買的OpenAI整個往下延伸就會有很多的產業出現因為全世界大家都知道"},{"start":25566.26,"end":25573.367,"text":"所以你現在要在台灣發展無人機的產業請問你準備投多少錢"},{"start":25575.3,"end":25599.867,"text":"目前我們已經有一個同仇型計畫從去年到19年這個我們總共要編442億元來投入那當然除了這個以外我們還有許多的一些政府的資源包括國發基金這邊他也可以來做一些這個投資的國發基金準備投多少當然他就要看有適當的案源他當然他就會"},{"start":25600.686,"end":25616.586,"text":"來做這個投資的這個支持那國泊金最主要是靠台積電台積電大概我們持有大概是6.5%左右吧那以現在的市值來看的話台積電總市值是多少"},{"start":25621.324,"end":25642.063,"text":"各位有報告以現在台積電目前的這個股價來講的話2400塊對 那市值 國家基金這邊大概就接近4兆4兆4兆 4兆 對 我想說大概3點多到4兆那你會不會因為這一次的無人機的發展賣台積電股票不會"},{"start":25646.189,"end":25675.356,"text":"那台積電股票未來怎麼處理?賣不賣?台積電的股票我想委員很清楚嘛因為其實外資的持股很高所以台積電國發外資持股應該有70幾%吧所以雖然我們是比較最大的這個法人股東所以就對於這個穩定來講的話是有幫助的所以我想大院的委員大概也都有提到說不要賣台積電的股票所以台積電不會賣?是OK好"},{"start":25676.036,"end":25686.714,"text":"那你如果台積電不要賣的話那你覺得在國發基準部可以運用的資金有多少你要來投入無人機相關"},{"start":25687.86,"end":25707.436,"text":"跟委員報告我們有各個不同的投資方案有硬體軟體直接投資的創投的百億的這個主題式的基金天使等等那主要都是在支持當新創有需要的時候大概就會有這個好那接著就是會討論到一個問題這個你一個那麼大的一個項目展開了以後有硬體軟體有周邊請問"},{"start":25717.063,"end":25729.713,"text":"何次長既然你們是主辦是你嘛你有沒有發現在台灣的上市上規公司1900家裡面有幾家跟無人機發展有關的大概有很多的來你旁邊那個有沒有比較了解的"},{"start":25740.083,"end":25765.923,"text":"有幾家?跟委員報告,其實無人機相關廠商有267家但是裡面有非常多的零組件也是由國內非常知名的業者我覺得你們這樣也不錯因為你就推一個產業出來市長,你也有點小貢獻因為你一推出了以後260家裡面的說要做無人機,有的都還沒開始做股票都漲了30%、50%你有沒有發現這個現象?"},{"start":25770.2,"end":25793.85,"text":"當然這個就是大家對國內無人機這個產業事實上是很有這個信心你要注意我不是批評喔我以為你這個很好因為現在台灣的產業全部都是AI啦除了半導體AI有AI啊大家想要送給我沒有AI大家要叫很悲哀"},{"start":25799.485,"end":25809.233,"text":"所以你這樣很好啊那你接下來除了無人機你第二個你還要推什麼那我們現在還有許多的像機器人的產業那你就講嘛 講大一點嘛我做無人機 哇 帶動200多家公司的上漲有的漲30% 漲50%南部有一家連做都還沒做 漲到300多塊"},{"start":25821.804,"end":25849.405,"text":"你再來講 機器人 你也喊啊對台灣好 我們都支持第三個 還有什麼產業我們現在有推出13個關鍵的產業你要走 要做得較穩 做大一點雨露均沾 只要帶動台灣發展我們都舉雙手贊成 可是要小心上次上一波的綠能就變成什麼綠油油"},{"start":25851.104,"end":25855.448,"text":"然後什麼光電88槍什麼搞得亂七八糟其實我們明代也沒在看那個啦我們在看的是台灣整個未來的經濟的發展產業的帶動這個是最重要的所以我基本上我是支持的啦"},{"start":25870.063,"end":25890.789,"text":"但我覺得建議護國神山像新北特別我們是新練寶高智慧園區在你所有一個無人機大概品項下大概有幾項200多項嘛 零組件什麼的六大模組六大模組再往下分有多少是"},{"start":25891.701,"end":25914.753,"text":"大概有一兩百項我希望優先在新店寶高智慧園區因為它裡面有很多的晶片鴻海還有相關的什麼國巨機械通通在那個地方請優先來考量精密製造的基地土層樹林那邊五股工業區是產業鏈也優先來考量一下"},{"start":25918.377,"end":25936.414,"text":"場域測試的話 大海新市鎮 北海岸的沿海特定的空域也不錯這邊也請你們在推動的時候多多考慮那最後 建立一個MIT無人採據安全認證提升國際競爭力也很重要要做就把它做好"},{"start":25937.014,"end":25962.035,"text":"做就要做大我們也都知道啦因為紅色供應鏈關係整個切斷了以後事實上包括阿拉伯包括很多的國家現在已經都有跟我們買啦可是不要漏氣啊買了半天連續去試飛的時候十架掉三架下來會很漏氣你們上面打的MIT啊你要做好啊所以你們這個產業供應鏈"},{"start":25964.085,"end":25973.817,"text":"你們要把發揮台積電成功的經驗複製到每一個區塊讓他們串結起來 好不好好 謝謝2400億夠不夠"},{"start":25976.513,"end":25994.025,"text":"沒有 我們現在就是以同酬型計劃 我們先來推動再搭配我們那個國防採購的這個特別預算好啦 好 我們希望這樣來支持採購你不要講就要討厭 叫不來啦是以前也沒特別預算嘛 就是照這樣子年度預算下去做 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝榮財委員 謝謝好 接下來我們請郭育晴委員質詢"},{"start":26007.943,"end":26014.426,"text":"謝謝主席那有請這個國防部還有經濟部請國防部跟經濟部我想上次在這個7月1號我在國防外交的質詢當中其實我有特別提到就是6月26號我們的這個2100億的行政院版本就是"},{"start":26036.437,"end":26058.493,"text":"已經被杯葛然後駁回所以其實在這個無人機的採購特別條例當中我想現在不是要跟這個兩位討論到底要用哪一個版本但是我想這個行政院的版本其實非常清楚其實也是因應我們的國防的需求所以我們特別把這個採購的項目那麼標示的非常的清楚那包含這個濱海"},{"start":26059.955,"end":26071.888,"text":"見證型的無人機另外呢還有這個濱海攻擊型的無人機另外呢還有我們的這個自殺的小型的自殺的無人艇這個項目標示的非常的清楚也就是說我們是要因應所謂的"},{"start":26074.971,"end":26098.505,"text":"當我們面臨危機的時候我們能夠在快速建軍這樣子的一個基礎下去提到的這樣子的一個特別條例所以當然但是現在呢其實我們知道在這個無人機特別條例不管是在整合國防上的一個需求或者是產能上的一個供應那麼當然我們也希望能夠打造具備這個自主研發還有生產"},{"start":26099.986,"end":26128.825,"text":"另外還有國際競爭力的一個無人機的一個產業鏈只是非常的可惜那我想其實現在產業面臨到的其實我在想這些企業其實他並不是怕競爭他不是怕競爭而是我們的法院沒有確定在整個所有的法院沒有確定的一個前提跟狀況之下其實沒有明確的採購的規則那我想這個廠商就不敢擴充他們的產線"},{"start":26130.206,"end":26147.905,"text":"我想這個是環環相扣當他不敢擴充他的產線的時候我們更不用講我的人才的培育我是也同樣的會縮手那如果這兩個全部影響放在一起的話是不是更難吸引所謂的資本的一個投入"},{"start":26148.886,"end":26173.557,"text":"我想這個其實大家應該要先把這個前提講得非常的清楚雖然現在其實我們看到這個在野黨他們有提到他們的版本那之前其實我有特別提到包含這個他們是預計要用在所謂的這個年度的預算當中但我以今年各個部會我們好不容易在最近才完成審查預算才一輪而已那"},{"start":26174.477,"end":26193.569,"text":"如果像今年年都已經過到現在已經是7月多了新的我們116年度的這個預算也要在8月要再送進來如果像今年一樣放在年度預算當中但是呢很多的委員會到目前為止"},{"start":26194.489,"end":26219.435,"text":"才剛剛審完或者還正在審當中我想如果有這樣子的一個拖延請問會不會影響到我們的無人機產業這是我第一個問題再來第二個問題按照這個民眾黨或者是國民黨他們的版本投入這個相關的比方說國民黨的版本是每年要投入400億的相關的一個預算我們怎麼樣能夠建立所謂的長期採購的一個制度我們讓"},{"start":26222.256,"end":26250.631,"text":"所有的這個產業企業有信心持續的投資才能夠將所謂的無人機整個所有的這樣子的一個生產線能夠持續的穩定跟量化這才是我們非常重視的一個問題那這個部分我想這個請國安部先來回答我我們怎麼樣建立穩定長期的採購制度包委員所以說這次我們會提出這個無人機採購的這個特別條例"},{"start":26252.028,"end":26281.164,"text":"第一方面當然是我們的作戰需求因為敵情的威脅陡升所以說我們有這個非常高的需求我們去快速滿足我們未來作戰需求第二個就是特別預算的特性就是它可以穩定預算的來源我們在用長單擴大規模的方式讓廠商有投資的意願一方面培養人才一方面建立產能最重要的可以吸引各方面的技術合作然後進一步提升我們的技術能力"},{"start":26281.904,"end":26308.664,"text":"最后建立这个非红供应链也就是以后在作战的时候我们所要必须要有的韧性因为台湾这个海岛不像乌克兰或者是伊朗他们有跟其他的国家有接纳一旦作战的时候我们非常需要在地的业者他不但能够持续的供应而且还能够不断的更新他的技术以应这个战场的需求所以这一点其实非常的重要这也就是为什么我说应该要用所谓的特别条例"},{"start":26309.945,"end":26323.676,"text":"來做這件事情為什麼因為我們其實是需要產業當中的穩定跟可以被預期的一個市場需求我才能夠讓本土的廠商能夠放心去投入不管是設備也好人才也好產能也好"},{"start":26324.497,"end":26333.122,"text":"其實台灣其實不是只有護國神山它是護國群山無人機其實技術上也是其中的一環第二個我想請教一下經濟部我們剛剛一直提到所謂的全球布局非紅供應鏈的一個問題我們的驗證制度有準備好了嗎對台灣人而言這個其實是一個難得非常難得的一個國際商機"},{"start":26346.71,"end":26347.171,"text":"那這個部分呢"},{"start":26364.274,"end":26367.939,"text":"這個跟我們報告這個無人機的這個驗證其實我們在今年已經跟美國的無人機協會他們有一套GreenUS的這個系統他可以來驗證這個所謂裡面是不是可以達到飛鴻的這個要求"},{"start":26380.876,"end":26390.786,"text":"那我想飛鴻這個要求他是一個民主國家在做無人機採購一個非常重要的一個指標所以目前我們鼓勵國內的這個業者朝這個認證的這樣的一個制度申請"},{"start":26396.611,"end":26418.143,"text":"雖然我們現在這個法案其實尚未完成但是我想這個部分我們也要協助這個業者來建立所謂的非紅供應鏈的一個認證的制度讓條例如果真的通過如果通過的話我想台灣的廠商就能夠非常快速的去銜接這個國際的市場去打造全球的一個訂單我想這是我們的終極目標因為我們要"},{"start":26420.404,"end":26443.952,"text":"同等的發展無人機的產業但是我們同時要能夠滿足現在不管是共機還是共建它持續在台海周邊在擾台啊所以我們也要滿足國防的要求能夠快速建軍的一個需求所以我才說穩定的法源穩定的條例當中的預算的編制才能夠因應這一塊但是我們當然"},{"start":26446.853,"end":26472.583,"text":"還是持續要跟在野黨好好的來溝通嗎雖然他們有他們的堅持但是其實我們也有我們的一個看法是針對國防真正的需求所以我剛剛講的採購的三個項目是非常清楚其實在條例當中就已經標示清楚但是這個部分我想我們還要持續的努力好嗎好謝謝好謝謝郭益全委員謝謝部委好接下來吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":26481.325,"end":26487.361,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請國防部有請國防部委員好"},{"start":26488.001,"end":26511.954,"text":"好辛苦了其實最後各位大家今天都辛苦了那也希望各位的努力呢可以替我們第一線的國軍稍微減輕點他們的辛苦那今天我們審查的是這國防自主無人載具特別條例的草案那事實上今天在這個條例當中國防部所提出的相關的需求它原本是編列在我們國防特別條例當中但是遭到在野黨的刪除那當時國民黨的羅廷文委員他說台灣的無人機是"},{"start":26516.897,"end":26525.467,"text":"沒有人要的無人機這個不過就是今年五月的事情我們都記得非常清楚但是這樣離譜的發言我認為不只是態度侵略的問題也展現了對無人載具的認識相當的不足因為台灣無人機的出口數字我們是快速的成長"},{"start":26534.858,"end":26537.619,"text":"去年一整年產值達到129億比前一年超過的是2.5倍而我們無人機的整機這個外銷的產值是29.5億比前一年翻了多少倍翻了21倍"},{"start":26551.303,"end":26572.824,"text":"意思說從產值上面來看台灣的無人機絕對不是沒有人要而是大家搶著要大家急著要在我們自己的國防條例特別條例當中無人載具卻被刪除了所以國防部才會趕快來去擬定了國防自主無人載具特別條例就是要來補救但是當中一度又遭到再又被杯葛"},{"start":26573.985,"end":26591.092,"text":"一度還被拖延到程序委員會所以今天真的好不容易我們可以開始來審查這個條例我們很遺憾的是過去在野黨屢次的阻擋屢次的杯葛但是我在今天廣播的報告當中我們真的是再次的看到目前我們的國防需求我們的建軍整備"},{"start":26592.812,"end":26616.877,"text":"語言載具相關的是迫切的需求因為我們需要在最短的時間當中來快速整建我們的無人機戰力其實我們看了著急民眾看了也很著急所以我要請問一下國防部在你們條例當中具體的說你們要採購三個項目冰海監測型無人機冰海攻擊型無人機小型自殺無人艇這主要是要因應什麼樣的需求我請站規司司長做個說明"},{"start":26618.446,"end":26640.328,"text":"我們先針對那個冰雅尖針型的這個部分冰雅尖針型無人機它主要是針對我們防衛作戰裡面從敵人發航到搏地一直到上路的這段時間提供全面全時的針尖那它的作用就是讓地面上的火力以及其他遠距的金屬武器可以對目標發動準確的打擊"},{"start":26641.869,"end":26662.108,"text":"那至於濱海攻擊型無人機它包含了四種包含沉浸式HFPV然後投彈式跟近程還有中程的自殺無人機那它這四型還有小型自殺無人體我們是把它歸類為彈藥它就是用來直接擊毀敵人就類似彈藥的一個概念"},{"start":26664.15,"end":26686.732,"text":"中程跟進程無人機的這個部分他主要是針對敵人的船團來進行打擊然後投彈式的跟FPV則是針對岸際跟上岸的敵人他的目標來進行攻擊所以這些武器他這些無人機他無人艇他都還會再搭配我們其他各項艦軍備戰的項目形成一個完整的擊殺網"},{"start":26687.933,"end":26709.37,"text":"是 這個其實不需要是國防軍事專家國人都知道因為國際的軍事討論都在說台灣繼續提升的就是我們的不對稱戰力所以這三項才夠對我們來講非常的重要那美國一個智庫新美國安全中心他有提出說小心自殺五人艇是台灣海峽我們不可或缺的需求他說啊"},{"start":26710.751,"end":26735.224,"text":"就是對工軍來說 當台灣海峽佈滿了無人機跟無人艇它會形成一副地獄景象 Hellscape但是我今天看到在民眾黨團的版本當中在立法說明當中 把水上無人載具拿掉了所以說按照民眾黨團這個版本小型自殺無人艇的採購可能會無法進行"},{"start":26736.744,"end":26739.047,"text":"這個假設我們沒有去買這個剛剛講的這個小型自殺輪艇對我們的沿海的防禦會造成什麼樣的衝擊"},{"start":26744.6,"end":26769.983,"text":"邦委,小型自殺無人艇我們從俄烏戰爭跟近期的伊朗戰爭裡面可以看得出來它基本上是一個比較不容易被干擾而且它的運用也非常彈性,破壞力也非常大的一個武器沒有這個的話,我們就只能用我們的反艦飛彈或是其他容易被敵人標定干擾的武器來對敵登陸船艦來進行打擊它的效果當然就會大幅的受到影響"},{"start":26770.563,"end":26785.507,"text":"好這個部分因為國人都很關心而且今天不管是哪一個黨團的提案的條例名稱前面都叫做國防自主提升即無人機產業這個條例所以拜託國防部要多加說明我們希望我們需要的這些建軍的這些實力需要的這些設備我們可以採購的到那再來我要快速的表達"},{"start":26790.649,"end":26802.215,"text":"我反對把這個條例主管機關放在經濟部第一個不是看到產業就推給經濟部審查那我們在文化教文委員會我文化產業文化部審查我運動產業運動部審查難道通通要推給經濟部嗎這個完全沒有概念第二個國防部當然也可以帶動產業啊我們本來就有軍轉民民轉軍軍民通用的這些概念都是本來就是有帶動產業提升的效果第三個我會擔心如果按照主管機關放到經濟部未來運作是"},{"start":26818.063,"end":26822.607,"text":"上面會有問題例如國民黨黨版19條主管機關每三年要委外研究進行我們無人載具訪問體系整體戰力評估叫經濟部去做我們整體戰力評估我覺得非常不恰當國防部本來就有在做我們戰力評估不是嗎為什麼要讓不是我們國防的主管機關來做我們國家整體的戰力評估呢而且這當中可能會涉及第一個精品資料的管控"},{"start":26845.706,"end":26849.949,"text":"而且國防部你們除了自己你們還有國防安全研究院所以這個我覺得相當不恰當再來這個預算的編列方式我認為也有問題倘若不用特別這個預算要用逐年編列的方式雖然在黨說國民黨的這個19條說編到2400億乍看比"},{"start":26863.86,"end":26873.213,"text":"比較高可是他要求每年只能給400億也就是說如果通過今年就是只有400億按照我們今年立法院審查總預算的狀況總預算到現在還沒通過所以呢乍看給你2400億可能就是只有400億那未來怎麼辦"},{"start":26880.803,"end":26898.457,"text":"我們的軍事建軍的建構應該是長期性穩定性的所以我要再次拜託國防部請你們務必要加強溝通加強說明我相信國人及我們立法院朝野不分黨派的同仁都是支持我們國家有一個長期穩定性的建軍計畫好 謝謝"},{"start":26900.182,"end":26921.798,"text":"好謝謝吳佩玉委員再來林佩祥委員林佩祥委員林佩祥委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在林德福林德福林德福委員不在許忠信許忠信許忠信委員不在好"},{"start":26924.056,"end":26952.806,"text":"登記發言的委員除不在場者外取譯均與發言完畢詢答結束委員劉美林、林德福、林思明、傅坤祺、張家俊、蘇清璇所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":26954.761,"end":26957.992,"text":"本日議程詢答完畢 另定期繼續審查 現在散會"},{"start":26991.798,"end":26991.818,"text":"嗯"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}