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邀請內政部部長 警政署署長 法務部次長就115年12月28日地方公職人員選舉選務維安勤務工作規劃進行專題報告並被質詢二 邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員 內政部部長 警政署署長法務部次長 數位發展部國家通訊傳播委員會就115年11月28日地方公職人員選舉選務整備選務中立假訊息因應作為與公民投票選務辦理情形進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1529.482,"end":1555.604,"text":"討論事項一繼續審查委員羅志強等18人拟據公民投票法第23條條文修正草案案二繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團拟據公民投票法第21條及第43條條文修正草案案審查委員葉元志等19人委員廖偉祥等16人分別拟據公民投票法第23條條文修正草案案審查委員賴士寶等25人拟據公民投票法第21條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1559.414,"end":1587.017,"text":"本次議程所列報告事項與討論事項合併詢答討論事項本日不足條處理現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先介紹我們許中信委員王美惠委員張志倫委員現在介紹列席官員中央選舉委員會游盈隆主任委員內政部吳唐安常務次長"},{"start":1588.885,"end":1613.741,"text":"警政署張榮欣署長保護部余麗珍主任秘書數位發展部數位產業署林俊秀署長國家通訊傳播委員會電台與內容事業處黃財政檢任視察我們請提案委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":1621.184,"end":1631.097,"text":"好那我們這個進行下一個事項下一個議程我們現在進行報告事項我們請中選會游移農主任委員報告"},{"start":1649.218,"end":1676.049,"text":"主席 各位委員 理事 先生貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議本人應邀就115年11月28日地方公職人員選舉選務整備選務中立假訊息因應作為以公民投票選務辦理情形進行專題報告深感榮幸"},{"start":1677.15,"end":1696.576,"text":"以下請就相關辦理情形報告以後首先115年地方公職人員選舉選務工作準備情形115年地方公職人員選舉金本會第622次委員會議決議定於115年11月28日星期六舉行投票"},{"start":1705.558,"end":1734.354,"text":"本會月一鎖定選舉工作進行程序表依序籌辦各項選舉事務重要選務工作期程請參閱書面除此之外在書面報告裡面我們共如列了15項工作重點那"},{"start":1735.919,"end":1763.887,"text":"我在這邊也做一些簡要的報告那麼這15項工作重點包括召開選務相關工作會議公告變更直轄市縣市議員選舉區投票所設置作業投開票所工作人員之招募"},{"start":1766.363,"end":1791.241,"text":"第六 因應公職人員選舉罷免法第57條第三項的修正推動保障原住民選舉人的秘密投票新措施優化原住民選舉人領票作業此外 原大陸地區人民申請登記為候選人之資格審查事宜第九 辦理選務人員講習及模擬演練"},{"start":1795.267,"end":1819.242,"text":"第十 修正公職人員選舉候選人申請登記書件表冊格式第十一 受理公職候選人財產申報作業辦理情形第十二 選舉期間徵聘監察小組委員第十三 加強選監檢警證聯繫第十四 籌劃辦理電腦計票作業"},{"start":1826.172,"end":1845.821,"text":"第15辦理選務宣導作業那麼在這15項工作重點裡面請大家參與之外我特別針對其中幾項來再做報告這一次選務"},{"start":1848.803,"end":1871.923,"text":"在原住民方面有兩大亮點第一就是優化原住民選舉人的領票作業本會規劃以六直轄市投開票所為範圍實施確保原住民選舉票領票作業正確維護原住民選舉人投票權益"},{"start":1873.206,"end":1881.678,"text":"另外一個亮點是原大陸地區人民申請登記為候選人之不對另外一個是"},{"start":1884.107,"end":1907.724,"text":"因應公職人員選舉罷免法第57條第三項修正推動保障原住民選舉人投票秘密性措施這是這一次顯霧的兩大新的措施了另外一個值得一提的就是說原大陸地區人民申請登記的候選人之資格審查事宜這是"},{"start":1910.4,"end":1935.066,"text":"如果予由原大陸地區人民申請登記為候選人者依大陸委員會115年4月16日的令事及內政部115年3月16日召開之原商附贈資訊系統新增原籍大陸地區人民繳付上司原籍證明文件日期的會議決議那麼"},{"start":1937.697,"end":1959.528,"text":"直轄市縣市選舉委員會將請副鎮事務所協助查詢候選人是否有繳付上司原籍證明註記及其繳付日期並以完成繳付上司原籍證明之日為死日其算是否已在台灣地區涉及滿十年"},{"start":1962.429,"end":1977.581,"text":"此外關於修正公職人員選舉候選人申請登記書件表冊格式114年11月27日內政部會選本會修正發布自公職人員選舉罷免法施行細則第15條條文"},{"start":1981.412,"end":1993.747,"text":"專列候選人登記申請調查表應包括未在大陸地區設有戶籍與領用大陸地區的附照及不具其他國家國籍之拒絕情形"},{"start":1994.841,"end":2010.784,"text":"候選人拒絕請請並刊登選舉公報之規定本會員配合修正公職人員選舉候選人申請登記書件表冊格式及公職人員選舉選舉公報樣式並經本會第624次委員會議決議通過以上的報告"},{"start":2025.279,"end":2049.426,"text":"請參閱書面的報告那麼整體來講本會這個負責整個今年底九合一地方選舉的這個選務的籌辦到目前為止so far so good請大家放心"},{"start":2051.223,"end":2071.444,"text":"在加強選務人員中立的宣導 我們也積極的加強 請翔樂業書面假訊息的因應作為 我們本會成立深圍影音防治專案小組辦理防治AI深圍訊息的宣傳也正在進行當中關於公民投票選務辦理情形"},{"start":2073.294,"end":2100.392,"text":"今年到現在為止本會設立張宇辰先生領銜所提全國性公民投票案經本會第6月4次委員會議決議舉行聽證並將於7月21日辦理聽證這是一項有關皮草公投的一個人民的提案其他閒物辦理情形請參閱書面除此之外今天"},{"start":2103.871,"end":2121.164,"text":"有多位委員提出有關公民投票法的修正草案那麼僅在此做最簡短的回應那麼關於這項多項公民投票法的修正包括21條23條43條等修正本人代表中選會對提案委員的"},{"start":2130.424,"end":2157.405,"text":"用心和努力表示肯定也表示感謝但是就選務機關的立場本人必須在此提出幾點意見供大院參考也就是關於增訂公投案多案合併一張公投票這件事情"},{"start":2161.206,"end":2188.757,"text":"本會在書面裡面提出了八點提醒那綜合起來我以三點來跟大家報告 第一點就是說多案合併在一張選票恐怕自私一分解決的問題遠比製造的問題要少或者倒過來製造的問題會比"},{"start":2191.488,"end":2209.564,"text":"解決的問題多很多這件事情千與法動全身這是第一點第二個就是說多位委員也注意到美國的多案在一張選票上的這樣的一個現象"},{"start":2211.004,"end":2228.171,"text":"但是我要在這邊也提醒大家美國這一項多案在一張選票上面行租有年已經有40年的經驗同時他們配合整個電子光學儀器設備"},{"start":2230.444,"end":2248.069,"text":"才能夠去處理一案多頭的這樣的一個複雜的狀況我們台灣沒有電子儀器掃描的這些裝備根本沒辦法處理一案多頭"},{"start":2249.662,"end":2273.206,"text":"如果要真的去推動這個方向需要許多的配套也請大院來多加考量第三個是選舉已經快到了十一二十八計今天只有四個月又十二天選前倉促立法倉促上路"},{"start":2274.875,"end":2296.89,"text":"引起的顯霧的昏搖和這個負擔是非常非常大的是不是可能犯了兵家之大吉大軍已經準備開拔了臨時改變規則這樣是否是一件好事那這是我"},{"start":2298.697,"end":2322.157,"text":"中選會提了八點提醒那我用三點來做一個綜合最後一點很快的跟大家報告關於公民投票法公告後一個月至六個月舉行公民投票這樣的一個公民投票法第23條的修正我在這邊只提一個一個提醒就是說"},{"start":2326.112,"end":2354.807,"text":"2018年或者107年十項公投案造成台灣選舉史上的最大的創傷這個創傷到今天國人一句猶存都不願意看到同樣的情況再重演為什麼2018年或者是說107年十項公投會造成那樣的亂象原因很多需要做非常深入有系統的協助研究"},{"start":2356.038,"end":2382.395,"text":"到目前為止還沒有這種研究但是我們可以很清楚的指出其中的一點2018年的十項公投提案都是在選前不到兩個月之內提出來的選民必須在短短的時間裡面去充分了解這十個公投案到底它的主人它的內涵是什麼這對我們的國人是一個嚴酷的考驗"},{"start":2384.38,"end":2405.874,"text":"我們的選民都很好都有高度的公民責任感所以當他們進入投票所的時候他們要做一個嚴肅的決定的時候他們沒辦法在短時間裡面做決定因此造成後面大排長龍這是一個非常根本的原因"},{"start":2406.94,"end":2423.206,"text":"我也請我們大院來參考深思熟慮之後再來做相關的修法我在最後再重申一次就是說目前這個三個月到六個月的新的規定是這樣的一個規定是"},{"start":2430.29,"end":2451.488,"text":"可以使公民獲得比較多的時間去考量這個了解這個相關的公投案然後做出決定突然之間從三個月壓縮到一個月勢必是一個災難以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":2459.721,"end":2462.914,"text":"好 我們接下來請內政部武唐安常務次長報告"},{"start":2472.14,"end":2482.891,"text":"主席 各位委員今天大院內委會來召開115年11月28日地方公職人員選舉選務維安勤務的工作規劃專題報告本人應邀前來報告並被質詢請將我們內政部的相關選務維安勤務工作準備情形說明"},{"start":2492.296,"end":2508.488,"text":"第一個本部的警政署已經定班計畫以督請警察機關要落實選務的維安工作重點如下第一強化參候選人的安全維護對於轄內各參候選人已經主動指派幹部來拜訪徵詢並執行安危"},{"start":2511.029,"end":2524.513,"text":"對於轄內各參候選人駐居所競選辦事處所也全面會勘檢視監視錄影還有包括消防照明等安全設施並依照治安顧慮等級分級加強選手"},{"start":2529.353,"end":2550.263,"text":"第二 有關競選造勢活動的安全維護我們也針對競選造勢活動的場地特性 活動動線期前掌握收集陳抗預警及實施場地會勘並協調主辦單位來建構安全的走廊及舞台防護縱深加強辨識 管制出入人員嚴密的勤務部署"},{"start":2552.421,"end":2567.67,"text":"一旦發生有違法脫序及暴力我們會來立刻的嚴正執法第三 淨化選前的治安內政部也會持續前面的執行淨化選前社會的治安環境強力執行包括減速掃蕩黑幫派"},{"start":2569.181,"end":2592.884,"text":"查緝非法槍彈 查緝各類土餅 偵破暴力犯罪減速各類竊盜 掃蕩賭博行為 全面查捕逃犯等等的犯罪偵防的重要措施來嚴密監控整個治安顧慮的人口以有效約束及消弭暴力的根源第四 有關選票的印製運送的保管"},{"start":2593.484,"end":2619.904,"text":"安危的部分我們對於選票的印製保管及護送等安全的維護工作我們有請各警察機關指派專責警力執行同時也會配合選務人員全程管制檢查人員進出全程蒐證來防度選票的外流那以上已經做二要報告那其他內容就請各位委員來參考我們的書面報告也並請大大院委員來予以指教謝謝"},{"start":2626.84,"end":2629.018,"text":"我們接下來請法務部余立錚主任秘書報告"},{"start":2643.435,"end":2659.469,"text":"今天奉邀列席貴園會就115年11月28日地方公職人員選舉選務、維安勤務工作規劃選務整備、選務中立甲訊息應作為與公民投票選務辦理情形進行專題報告即繼續審查公民投票法"},{"start":2659.989,"end":2682.999,"text":"那代表法務部列席報告並被質詢那有關於今天的專題報告部分就今年年底的九合一選舉那我們法務部提出了一個提出了一個核心目標也就是公平選舉守護民主那四項的重點工作七大策定作為的工作綱領並且在今年四月十號的時候航班讓我們的檢警調線海巡就這個"},{"start":2684.359,"end":2696.766,"text":"防制賄選還有暴力選舉還有選舉賭盤假訊息及境外勢力競選等進行工作規劃那下面有關於四項工作的重點"},{"start":2698.237,"end":2718.155,"text":"包括嚴查會選及暴力維護選舉秩序那另外就是斬斷選舉賭盤防止不法勢力介入以及防堵假訊息干擾維護選務安全另外就是針對阻斷境外的勢力競選來確保我們選舉的自主那另外就是七大的策進作為包括"},{"start":2718.695,"end":2734.004,"text":"建構選務的這個維安及查查的體系另外就是對於我們整個查會體系的精準部件以及防度虛偽的這個籤及戶籍嚴懲暴力的竊選另外就是針對賭盤來升級查查就針對這個境外模式竊選然後進行嚴查就辦"},{"start":2739.928,"end":2759.028,"text":"針對防止假訊息的部分建構了全面防護網動員全民的力量建構選務安全防線針對今天主題之一有關於選務中立的部分關於選務中立的法律規定在行政中立法以及選舉罷免法"},{"start":2760.609,"end":2775.591,"text":"那就這部分的話我們法務部廉政署會針對所屬的各政風機構加強宣導相關的法律及並要求各單位來行政中立那我們最高檢察署也例如去前往一二省的檢察署進行選舉查查分區的座談"},{"start":2776.412,"end":2804.578,"text":"會要求檢警調線政風海巡除了落實選舉查查工作外也要刻遵守這個行政中立另外就是大家比較關心的是假訊息事件的處理那我們已經建置了深緯的這個假訊息的處理流程最高檢察署在6月3號已經召開了有關於深度偽造與假訊息的處理參考流程供我們檢警調線海巡政風來做參考另外也成立了這個重大假訊息的處理中心"},{"start":2805.959,"end":2828.68,"text":"來強化專責的聯繫機制另外也對案件的管轄也訂立了明確的規範以及我們也協助當事人依照選爆法來排除身為影音的這個侵害另外我們為了要及時來確認也強化身為的這個鑑識的量能能夠提升及時應處及溯源的機制那最後呢我們在這個"},{"start":2830.164,"end":2851.66,"text":"年底我們法部所屬的檢查、調查及廉政機關會與這個警察、移民、選務、戶政等機關密切合作來全面防制各類不法行為干擾選務及公民投票至於這個公民投票法部分我們也提供書面那也在審查的時候提供會提供意見那以上報告敬請主席及各位委員參考"},{"start":2858.966,"end":2882.322,"text":"其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原例做幾點宣告本會委員諮詢時間5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員諮詢時間5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天專報及法案合併詢答本次會議就不助理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2885.609,"end":2912.058,"text":"好那現在開始進行選答我們第一位請許中信委員發言質詢主席各位同仁有請我們中選委游主委來游主委主委好 市委員好"},{"start":2913.925,"end":2939.051,"text":"您剛才提到2018年的災難我們不是只有該次選務失敗而已您的學弟陳竺偉也是我的好朋友我劉英但是我德文跟他請教他非常優秀的一個學者仍然經不起這樣一個重擊所以從2018年以後"},{"start":2942.005,"end":2968.633,"text":"他幾乎在學界很少出現喪失國家一個人才我真的不想這件事情能夠再再度出現那我們合併選票是本院包括本黨利益良善雖然知道有您所提到的八點的缺點那他還是有一些優點也就是說領票時間會快"},{"start":2970.629,"end":2992.099,"text":"那麼他能夠節省根據您的專業大概多少費用我們可以去算上看所以現在主委還不知道那個節省的利益有多少只要大院通過我們可以精算出來"},{"start":2992.912,"end":3019.492,"text":"可以計算的出來所以表示現在沒辦法估算表示很大的利益因為我們選委會人少事多資源少我們要做的事情太多了沒辦法每一件事情都能夠符合委員的期待的確我們考量到中選會的人事的預算各方面的確有限我們就你剛剛的提問做一個補充是"},{"start":3020.595,"end":3049.969,"text":"我想今天這個場合是很適合的場合我想為中選會同仁申冤請2018年那一件事情其實是一個非常複雜的各種因素造成的一個結果但是當社會都歸罪於是中選會這個處理不周的時候公平嗎你剛剛講我認為不公平陳朝健副主委"},{"start":3051.141,"end":3080.152,"text":"因為這樣亦亦寡歡到今天為止一個陽光燦爛的一個國家培育的政務人才現在可能亦亦寡歡而死你有看到他在出現公共場合嗎沒有他一定覺得他很冤枉啊沒錯他可能覺得很自責啊他很自責怎麼會發生這種事情這種事發生在他身上可是"},{"start":3080.936,"end":3109.69,"text":"我們平心靜氣的去講我們客觀的去分析那是唯一的原因嗎中選會是唯一的造成那樣結果的原因嗎我舉一個例子不敢占用您太多時間八月颱風這麼強大的颱風很好沒有上岸如果登陸北台灣您覺得會發生什麼事情整個面目前悔整個北台灣可能會被摧毀"},{"start":3112.372,"end":3139.566,"text":"人不能勝天啊當大自然那麼巨大的力量來的時候我們怎麼樣去抗拒所以2018年是一個百年一役的一個災難可能往後也不會再出現十個民間自己投票然後推出十個公投案大概也不會再發生了但是我們要從中舉起孝敬謝謝委員這個我知道所以我們現在我粗淺的想到"},{"start":3141.458,"end":3164.886,"text":"閱讀公投票的時間是在排隊時讓他閱讀還是他排隊領到票以後再來閱讀這很重要這一點請主委注意第二點我們法律並沒有規定公投一定要跟我們地方選舉在一個投票房間之內"},{"start":3166.178,"end":3195.262,"text":"所以他要同時來進行那如果我們把他在一個同一個地域前後來進行先投地方選票然後再來投公投開票也一樣也是我們地方選舉先開票那公投票之後再來開就不會因為搭配的公投去影響我們主要的地方選舉的目的"},{"start":3196.704,"end":3220.615,"text":"這是我個人粗淺可以從2018年歸納出來的一個看法那所以主委您剛才有提到我們這樣一個公投搭配地方選舉有可能會有負面但是它也有正面將來是不是我們也可以像美國這樣有電子化來進行"},{"start":3221.98,"end":3243.449,"text":"這要整體考量整體考量會規劃嘛整體考量會規劃昨天剛好台灣LIFTING的MARTIAL LAW30 YEARS昨天我們結緣剛好30年到今天滿了昨天您在民進黨打拚什麼時候開始我1995年4月1號加入那天雖然是預言節"},{"start":3252.711,"end":3270.748,"text":"所以超過30年解嚴之前總共是24年又幾個月我在2019年6月23號退黨所以你在民進黨加入時是在戒嚴時期加入不是1996年是戒嚴啦戒嚴時期"},{"start":3273.769,"end":3300.917,"text":"那所以你在民進黨的貢獻使得民進黨現在成為一個執政黨不然呢民進黨現在有委員評估您是歷屆中選會主委最差的主委您怎麼看政治口水不予回應政治口水嘛不予回應兩岸原聲提不住青州要過萬重山"},{"start":3302.404,"end":3326.212,"text":"這也是本人到立法院來,我所秉持的一個原則我很高興,主委也有這個心因為當你要做一個中立的角色的時候,難免兩邊都會夾擊所以有很多政治口水,抹黑、扭曲都會在您身上"},{"start":3327.662,"end":3336.205,"text":"我們曾經同是天涯淪落人我們一定要一起來努力一起來擔當謝謝主委謝謝委員我們下一位請張志倫委員發言質詢"},{"start":3355.933,"end":3382.639,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早有請游一龍主委麻煩游主委主委早主委剛剛您的專案報告我想主要的重點之一就是今年年底11月28號的地方大選以及公投榜大選的選務一定要順利成功那不要發生以前"},{"start":3383.659,"end":3408.3,"text":"的慘痛的經驗那這也是本席所希望的也拜託你一定要完成這樣的任務那可是那現在我們也看到年底這個不管是地方大選跟公投那在立法院這幾次的院會其實我們可以看到現在有六個公投的議題已經在立法院進入一讀通過那可能未來會二讀或接近三讀"},{"start":3410.662,"end":3429.037,"text":"這個狀況那這六個公投我本席認為都非常的重要包含這個編刑或者是廢除非核家園等等公投等等每個公投都非常重要那本席在這邊要請教主委這個六個公投對你來說對年底的選務會不會太多"},{"start":3432.267,"end":3448.95,"text":"我想我現在不適合去談這樣一個問題為什麼呢因為公投是不是第一個立法院會過幾個公投我說你現在已經進一讀了有可能二三讀六個會不會太多如果六個"},{"start":3451.032,"end":3476.63,"text":"坦白講是 我曾經講過考量這個以時俱進 選擇於選務量能的極限的前提下一個恰恰好 兩個優點多 三個受不了我是真心誠意的提出這個不是站在誰的利益 也是站在台灣整體的利益的立場提出這樣的一個建議性的一個看法 提供給"},{"start":3477.612,"end":3506.42,"text":"大願參考啦好謝謝主委其實本席的想法我覺得這六個公投的議題都非常重要可是主委您的意見也非常的重要所以我相信黨團也會聽聽你的意見不然是提出公投案的這個黨團應該都會再討論啦因為公投案都非常的重要可是也有分很多不同的年只要有綁大選的機會都可以來討論以及來進行喔所以也希望主委這邊喔這個一定"},{"start":3507.12,"end":3529.169,"text":"無論是幾樣公投當然我也希望說不要影響到選舉幾樣公投我也希望主委可以適時的提點我們然後一定要讓選務順利圓滿我覺得這個是非常重要的啦謝謝張委員我在這一陣子其實我覺得最重要的一個工作就是怎麼樣讓我們的九合一地方選舉能夠順利圓滿完成"},{"start":3531.127,"end":3557.225,"text":"另外也讓我們有幾個公投提出來然後同時舉行兼顧選務也兼顧公投什麼是最適境界這是一個很重要的一個問題我們不能單向思考只從公投角度思考我們也不能單向思考只從選務的角度思考當我們要從多面向思考選務跟公投的時候我們是要有一個新思維這個新思維就是說"},{"start":3558.286,"end":3581.687,"text":"怎麼樣在兩者都可以達成的情況底下最適當的公投數目是多少這就是我在所提出的Project OptimalityProject 最適境界這是經濟學家的概念啦不過應用在這個上面也是非常恰當的我只指出了一個方向我真的很"},{"start":3582.81,"end":3598.568,"text":"很盼望國會以及我們的社會能夠開始去思考這樣的一個問題所以非常多委員有提出來就是說未來可以參考美國把這個選票這個公投案或選票把它集中在一個一張選票上"},{"start":3600.31,"end":3620.597,"text":"那我也覺得說如果今年的這個地方大選沒辦法適用未來也可以作為中選會的參考目標之一啊我們來救人救來救人救那第二個也要請問喔就是說我看到我們的專案報告裡面其實民眾想關心的就是說會不會塞車會不會投票會不會塞車會不會很擠所以請教有關投票"},{"start":3621.337,"end":3636.554,"text":"的領票跟圈票處在專案報告裡面也特別有提到兩個領票處六個圈票處在六個圈票處想要請主委稍微分析說明一下是每個投票處都會有六個圈票處嗎來去消化還是說六個是上限"},{"start":3637.535,"end":3660.736,"text":"還是說因為我們有時候去看到說圈票處現場只有兩三個那是未來如果人數增加的話會增加到六個會有個備用嗎那我相信如果民眾還是你們有個什麼樣的機制因為我看到你們的報告是寫兩個領票處六個圈票處是不是可以請主委解釋一下好所以標準的配備是六個六個遮屏對六個遮屏那"},{"start":3662.864,"end":3686.141,"text":"如果有公投案還會考慮再增加適當的數量大概幾個 兩個 再加兩個 八個八個大概已經就快接近極限可是現場有時候我們看到沒有那麼多圈票數是如果當選務人員 主任的人員他看到他可以增加數量嗎 我們的標準配備是六個"},{"start":3687.23,"end":3715.044,"text":"六個哲平那如果有公投那公投數量多的話可能就要再增加一個兩個或三個可是現場有時候就只有兩三個如果增加到三個以上可能就要外延到投票所外面去了因為跟圈票處的大小空間也有相對應的關係嘛對不對應該都是同樣的size同樣的我覺得你還是要稍微講清楚因為我今天是選民我看到現場沒有六個圈票處那到底是發生什麼原因"},{"start":3716.175,"end":3737.491,"text":"如果沒有的話可能是投票所選舉人比較少因為我們現在選舉人不一樣所以有最多的是1500人以上的也有1200人以上的也有幾百人的所以有可能是因為人數的不同區的規模還有選民數量"},{"start":3740.053,"end":3759.303,"text":"趕快選出來 那再來我就要請教 我們現在選舉投票的地方已經確定了選任人員啊 也是上次我請教主委是一個非常大的問題啊今年的選任人員預計招募要19萬3千多人那我們預計在今年的8月31號要招80% 其實時間非常的趕只剩一個多月的時間了"},{"start":3761.184,"end":3784.037,"text":"我們當時有請教主委針對我們當時112年的時候有對省務人員的薪資福利有做一個調整可是當時人就招不太齊了這個相關的問題請問主委在這一兩個月很短暫的時間請問你到底有沒有做了哪一些措施可以讓你增加聘用省務人員的一些福利是不是可以請主委再回答一下"},{"start":3785.657,"end":3809.225,"text":"謝謝張委員還有我們其他的內政委員會委員在上次會議的時候通過的組決議希望我們去協調相關單位來提高選務工作人員的誘因我們在6月17號就開了一個正式的會議中選會邀請了教育部"},{"start":3810.065,"end":3823.652,"text":"主計總署還有人事總署及其他單位來開會研究怎麼樣解決這個問題我們現在有一個具體的一個方案方便簡單回應一下就是說"},{"start":3825.433,"end":3843.423,"text":"未來這個補假可以補休兩天已經確定了我們是已經會議達成共識主計總署也口頭上同意至少沒有反對沒有反對所以現在大概已經90%確定了就這一點來講我覺得是一個進步"},{"start":3848.265,"end":3866.476,"text":"那已經簽給行政院等待核定其他的部分也在爭取那比方說工作會要如何根據這個物價指數的調整相對提升還有這些待客的費用那些都很龐大的數目"},{"start":3867.276,"end":3882.977,"text":"那我們都在精算當中謝謝主委那今天時間的關係那我還是非常感謝主委這時間來的努力跟付出那當然有些流言蜚語也希望說主委要有人扛得住那就祝福年底的選務順利謝謝主委謝謝張委員"},{"start":3899.997,"end":3922.476,"text":"好 下一位我們請廖先祥 張偉諮詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩邀請游主委張委員好那個主委您好 有關公投您在就任的時候有過相關的發言立法院提出了公投案"},{"start":3923.527,"end":3943.395,"text":"通過是原則 不通過是例外 那目前立法院已經有一些在惡毒的案件剛剛張志榮也有拋爆你上面寫的這六件你應該都非常清楚 那針對這六件你認為會是原則還是例外我們就是說以我個人來講或中選會我們在"},{"start":3947.93,"end":3965.564,"text":"公投案確立之前我們都沒有針對個案去表達任何的評論我覺得這樣做是必要的因為這樣子如果我們去發表什麼議論其實也會引來更多的批評"},{"start":3966.204,"end":3989.803,"text":"所以現在你也沒有辦法說如果說立法院就是照這六案文字都沒有修改你也沒有辦法在這邊就是保證說年底大家一定投得到是這樣的意思嗎還是要經過你們委員會的審查廖委員這個中選會是合一制特別是重大的事項是必須開委員會議決定我去問一下假設立法院通過了那我們中選會多久時間以內會給出答覆"},{"start":3992.502,"end":4014.335,"text":"看中選會什麼時候通過然後我們就大概多久以內會開會啦大概這樣我們除了每個月的委員會之外我們還可以召開臨時會議可以嘛 比如說第100天通過了之後你們就再麻煩就在這邊進出處理對 我們可以開臨時會議那另外請教一下您講的原則跟例外它的界限對你個人來說是什麼"},{"start":4016.468,"end":4037.703,"text":"我當時講那個話的意思就是說我們必須尊重立法院的所推出的公投案因為那代表立法院多數的意見但是呢因為那樣所以立法院推出的公投案基本上不應該有任何問題什麼叫問題"},{"start":4040.492,"end":4060.701,"text":"就是不應該有不通過的問題如果有不通過的問題那就很可能就是涉及到公投法第二條第二項第三款立法院所推出的公投是不是符合重大政策的創制或覆決"},{"start":4061.771,"end":4086.154,"text":"就這一點來講 是中選會的委員會很認真的去斟酌所以就是創製跟複決這兩件事情重大政策的創製或創製好 那是我們未來審查的重點好 沒關係 至少讓我們知道有一個標準在這一邊好 那另外請教一下 就是公投合併在一張選票上面當然有提出的委員有正面的意見 那中選會有一些認為"},{"start":4087.515,"end":4102.828,"text":"你們認為這個這個必大於利的一個情況那我想今天的一個重點在於什麼公投的意義是什麼公投是直接民主我們立法院是代議民主那為什麼所有的國家沒有辦法實行直接的民主是因為"},{"start":4103.868,"end":4127.641,"text":"這個成本過於巨大也沒有辦法在技術上也沒有辦法去執行所以說我們大家都是用代議民主的方式但是一個民主的國家他應該是如果說能夠達到直接民主的話應該會比代議民主更符合民主的一個精神這樣講應該沒錯嘛但公投法它就是一個直接民主的表現跟做法那因為我們現在要想的事情是"},{"start":4128.701,"end":4147.087,"text":"我們現在眾選會認為說如果說有太多公投案會影響到選務的進行的時候我當然認同主委的說法但是如果因為選務上面的困難造成了直接民主沒有辦法去實行的話我認為這是不是in a face我們應該要想的事情是"},{"start":4148.243,"end":4167.17,"text":"我們要怎麼去推動直接民主它在現有的制度或者是科技進步的情況下讓它更能夠去達成而不是因為我們有可能想到的困難你說年底可能時間太近了沒有辦法執行等等的我想我這些都是充分尊重中選會第一線執行的人"},{"start":4168.23,"end":4191.924,"text":"的業務的一個的說明但是我們今天要想的是未來怎麼樣透過公投法去讓我們的直接民主更能夠執行那合併成一張選票是有一些委員他想到的想法那或許不是最好的但是我們當然可以提出批評但是我覺得我們的目標應該是一樣怎麼去促成未來直接民主是更容易達成的這件事情不曉得中委會對這樣子的說法您的看法"},{"start":4192.644,"end":4206.096,"text":"對我對廖委員這樣的一個想法我相當的敬佩那我直接了當的講一點就是說如果我們要有更多的直接民主我們應該是學瑞士"},{"start":4207.031,"end":4221.397,"text":"瑞士呢他一年四季都可以公投沒有限制特定的時間每一次投票也可以有三四個公投案那就可以讓我們台灣這個"},{"start":4224.278,"end":4247.908,"text":"更朝氣蓬勃讓民意能夠透過公投能夠表現出來我想提醒主委如果主委認同的話應該是說我們也不一定是單純就這個法條的內容去提出這個贊成或反對優劣而是朝著這樣的目標一起讓台灣的公投法的選制讓它更加的完善我想這就是共同的目標大家一起去想我回頭再強調一點"},{"start":4251.88,"end":4267.579,"text":"要有人很關心直接民主但是我們必須很務實的去看待這件事情當公投綁大選的時候我們不會希望只有公投而忘掉選舉因為選舉是台灣民主的核心"},{"start":4269.476,"end":4287.176,"text":"選舉如果被破壞了或者選舉遭遇很大的災難那是台灣的災難所以我們要雙向思考不能只考慮公投如果公投我百分之百贊成怎麼樣讓公投能夠更普遍能夠更興盛可能會影響到"},{"start":4289.819,"end":4304.216,"text":"一般的選舉也不見得要跟選舉也不要跟選舉綁在一起對 也不見得要跟選舉綁在一起好 那以上如果說我們有共同的方向那也希望未來能夠大家一起來努力那因為我請教這個AI身為的問題你們剛剛報告有說中選會有成立"},{"start":4310.924,"end":4325.318,"text":"這個檢舉嘛這小組我們大概一個候選人提出檢舉我們大概需要多少時間去處理或者說我們處理之後會給怎樣子的一個答覆會有可能有哪幾種類別的答覆"},{"start":4326.949,"end":4341.666,"text":"是 我們現在就是先成立這樣的一個內部的機制來因應未來可能的這些身為影音的對顯情的創造小組成立了嗎 或者說我們的技術上面都已經到位了嗎"},{"start":4342.046,"end":4363.514,"text":"技術面我們不敢講但是我們至少我們在任務編組上面我們已經有這樣的一個機制在那裡來協助處理配合剪掉啊我想這次是我們中選會是很大的挑戰這個AI這兩三年進步了成這樣子了可能很多現在都已經在準備當中了那未來如果說我們中選會正是要這個問題我也沒有辦法期待說你們能夠做到100分因為這個已經是科技進步所帶來的選舉的一些"},{"start":4369.856,"end":4397.227,"text":"是 廖委員這其他事情了但是現在我們有正式的問題提出這個專門的做法了那就請你們好好加油任務在這邊一句話就好任務在這邊講一句話我們要很謙卑的來講這一句話光憑中選會沒辦法單獨去處理這個AI這個身為影音的問題這需要整個國家機器的力量好 謝謝那我再請法務部好不好"},{"start":4398.047,"end":4401.834,"text":"法務部跟警政署長兩位主委您先休息這個您邊走邊講首先法務部"},{"start":4408.391,"end":4426.508,"text":"這之前有台灣發生過兩個可能有政治人物指控是假訊息包括我們的前鄭文燦副院長的影片或者是說這個之前羅委員的一些錄音檔他們都有提出指控是假訊息嘛對不對那這個後來"},{"start":4430.322,"end":4445.863,"text":"我們講最近的就是羅委員的這一件案子他後來跟法務部檢舉嘛對不對那其實選舉最重要的一件事情是什麼是時效性你不能說我今天檢舉了然後你在選舉後你才跟我說它是真偽的所以時效性這件事情對每個候選人跟選舉公平是非常重要的"},{"start":4446.817,"end":4473.819,"text":"那從當初羅委員的錄音的檢舉判事到現在也超過三年的時間了我想我們法務部已經這個相關的單位已經有調查結果出來了嗎你不能告訴我們每一位候選人這個你要能夠告訴我們每個候選人包括可能警政署都要告訴大家說我們能夠在多少的時間內告訴民眾告訴候選人這個是真的還是假的還是有一個結論"},{"start":4475.06,"end":4493.844,"text":"好不好 先請法務部先說明一下現在在鑑定那個身為的部分的軟體包括我們調查局還有刑事局他們各自會有兩個軟體要確定是有了然後兩個機關都double check OK的話那就會有一個確認的結果所以需要多久的時間"},{"start":4497.843,"end":4523.274,"text":"那目前就是這個深圍影音情緒在做鑑識一個軟體的話四個小時就可以出來四個小時那所以說之前羅委員的檢舉案件到現在法務部還沒有跟因為他具名檢舉了嘛所以說法務部還沒有跟社會大眾說真假是什麼原因如果他是假的你應該要幫羅委員說這是假的才能夠還他清白啊是這樣吧"},{"start":4524.164,"end":4549.689,"text":"因為這個是當時檢舉的時候是他是有關於是性影像那我們根據那個性侵害防治法裡面這個是當事人的隱私啊所以以後我做AI身為我只要做性影像的我去跟你檢舉就不會有對大眾告知了嗎當然那個性侵害防治法有規定是除非當事人同意那現在大家聽到你這樣子講所有的這個網軍就全部開始現在開始在做啦"},{"start":4551.01,"end":4568.269,"text":"檢舉不會這樣不對吧那當然就是說如果說他是假的啦就是說那當然會讓當事人知道然後如果當事人願意願意就是讓他公開因為他那個性侵犯法是很有規定除非當事人同意啦所以有關性的部分對他只有檢舉有關性的部分那錄音檔的部分呢也有檢舉嗎"},{"start":4571.251,"end":4595.844,"text":"有那這個有關性嗎?有兩個都有關性所以現在法務部的立場是只要有關性的就不會跟社會大眾說是真的還假的那我覺得會是未來選務的一個很大的一個問題未來可能會出現那大家應該要及早做好準備這樣子的一個回覆我想應該不是大家所能夠接受的只是時間到了沒有辦法再跟你做追問以上謝謝"},{"start":4599.743,"end":4621.148,"text":"好 謝謝廖先祥 張阿偉 下一位我們請張宏祿委員好 我們請那個中選會主委好 請游一隆主委"},{"start":4630.655,"end":4650.903,"text":"主委其實今天雖然報告人很多但我有一個想請教的話主委如果今年年底如果這個公投案成立過之後我們有沒有時間來得及準備這個所有公投跟大選在一起的選務作業"},{"start":4656.593,"end":4679.472,"text":"現在是法律規定是三個月所以中選會依法來行政的話當然會感覺到有壓力但我們全力以赴不是我為什麼要特別這樣問時程上也是一個問題但以現行的所有的法令這樣有的法令不修的話可以嗎要不要有的法令要修"},{"start":4685.926,"end":4698.432,"text":"請張委員不不不直接講啊對不對你如果把所有的公投案有人說要把所有的公投案啊印在同一張選票這要不要修法這呃"},{"start":4705.307,"end":4722.05,"text":"如果要強制規定的話當然要修法啦否則我們中選會也可以定在我們的一些施行細則裡面應該這樣講啦齁如果沒有強制性的修法那你會違背了我們現在現有的法令"},{"start":4723.112,"end":4750.394,"text":"我如果去投票你有好幾張公投票有的票我可以拒領吧我可以不投吧我也可以不表示意見不表示意見也是直接民主的選項之一吧沒錯對嘛齁我可以以直接民主的這個事情我不表示我的意見我不要讓任何人知道我的意見或什麼這也是我的直接民主的表現沒錯那我們現行的法令是你可以不用領票喔"},{"start":4751.195,"end":4778.698,"text":"唉唷 對不對 你們全部人不知道我的意見啊這是我的權利啊那如果你今天把所有的選票印在同一張又沒有修法的情況之下有沒有違反這個我的自由意志有沒有違反性侵的法律我擔心的是這一點就這一點我們有在書面裡面的八大提醒裡面的一點就是談這個我們當然是覺得是有問題"},{"start":4780.323,"end":4795.518,"text":"中選會當然是選政機關但中選會其實也沒有很明確的點出這個有違反相關的法令我個人認為是有好幾條法令可能必須要修的"},{"start":4796.058,"end":4813.41,"text":"我們是說有違憲之餘啦違憲之餘那你現行的法令的話如果你要去細究的話我擔心的是有一件事情那如果都沒有修法都沒有怎麼樣我們這個公投都給他辦了對不對那結果出來了對不對"},{"start":4815.939,"end":4844.967,"text":"那我如果有一個人或有某個政黨或什麼我去提視線我去提什麼我說這個違反法令這個公投無效會不會到時候會不會有可能發生法律上的衝突本會對這個問題的立場是很鮮明的就是我們不贊成但是立法院如果通過這樣的一個法律我覺得我們會覺得很頭痛"},{"start":4846.873,"end":4849.245,"text":"如果立法院是有通過這個法律的話"},{"start":4850.495,"end":4877.225,"text":"那又是不一樣喔但目前的法律也是還沒通過喔沒有對啊所以要也來不及喔我坦白講我擔心的是這個喔對不對如果立法院有通過這個法律的情況又不一樣喔對不對那所以啊這個是選政上有一些問題要處理啦那另外喔如果以現在這個時間內啊如果這樣子在選務上"},{"start":4878.605,"end":4904.097,"text":"你認為地方選務機關地方的縣市選委會來得及作業嗎是說多案公投嗎有可能多案公投啊絕對是大亂啦絕對大亂嘛而且我可以說絕對跟2018年差不多會不會可能更嚴重可能更嚴重為什麼呢"},{"start":4907.711,"end":4935.469,"text":"如果我們以現有的這個如果臨時要增加這麼多我第一個想到的就是你的投開票所絕對不夠為什麼不夠因為本來我的投開票所我只有選這個縣市長縣市議員等等這些的容量就夠了你如果又要增加這個你是不是"},{"start":4937.209,"end":4955.926,"text":"這個投開票所不夠大你的空間也不夠你的人力也不夠你現在又要公投你又要再去找人喔我覺得這個很多很多的事情我覺得我們中選會跟我們的各地方縣市選委會啊應該要有以待之欸"},{"start":4957.697,"end":4974.483,"text":"所以我們今天在這邊表達了很嚴正的立場我們希望這件事情要從長計議我是覺得啦中選會表達立場什麼的這個都要啦這是以中立的角度不過"},{"start":4976.263,"end":4988.739,"text":"你們還是要有以待之啊要準備啊不然雖然你們表達立場但如果法律如果什麼的話到時候你們準備不及"},{"start":4989.79,"end":5012.883,"text":"被罵的還是你們所以我會在這邊就是說可能也要跟縣市選委會你們要去準備了如果確定有這個如何因應如何什麼這個應該都要有所準備啦我在這邊就是跟主委你提醒應該要這樣啦謝謝張委員不過我在這邊也表達一點感受就是說"},{"start":5014.224,"end":5014.925,"text":"這個 主委你說的 我不分任頭"},{"start":5035.37,"end":5049.593,"text":"但如果說完全就這樣子我也不認同2018你們可以去看所有的我事前我就跟他講一定會大亂我也在這邊公開講我說我預估這種情形就是這樣但他們認為不會"},{"start":5057.955,"end":5066.901,"text":"那就是選委會、中選會喔你們有一個謙卑的心,你自己又不那個那我們現在喔,我現在也可以預見如果是這樣你們絕對準備不急你們絕對會跟2018的情況一模一樣"},{"start":5073.345,"end":5089.401,"text":"在我們知道一模一樣的情況之下我們是應該要多所準備把它衝擊降到最低我那時候還沒有還沒有投開票的時候我就說一定百分之百了我還跟學委會主席說如果有問題你要負全責"},{"start":5090.991,"end":5108.685,"text":"對啊還好啊他後來負責任了對不對所以我覺得不能剛主委說的不能全歸於中選會我認同但是中選會的態度也要正確你要讓大家知道會有問題然後也要讓縣市選委會緊張動起來這樣子我們的衝擊才能降到最低好 未雨綢繆好 謝謝"},{"start":5126.124,"end":5140.506,"text":"我們現在會請王美惠委員發言質詢主席,我們總選會有主委麻煩主委"},{"start":5149.353,"end":5164.832,"text":"主委 剛才主委在這裡本事要跟你探討的就是說你說的說如果公道有六個可能我們合法法律去做現在最重要的是我們的省務人員"},{"start":5167.135,"end":5182.907,"text":"都陸陸續續都報名 他們還聽到這幾天說公道要多多的 多多的結果他們要先去到三天後 用反應的 因為只有2018年以來"},{"start":5184.568,"end":5190.553,"text":"大家都賣選舉的人,不是賣要投票的人是投票的人賣選務人員的在這裏主委,我們想要告訴你一件報名,要去投三天選務人員還聽到這幾天這樣,應該會中獎的如果像這樣的時候,一報名之後可以說不要去啦,你們說嗎來主委,你回答一下"},{"start":5214.011,"end":5223.181,"text":"兩點,第一點我完全同意翁議員你剛才說的問題已經散聲了因為不知道未來有多少公道所以雙武人員現在默執,這很困難,增加他的困難度現在有人說他如果上去,他要說他不要了,這是不是可以"},{"start":5235.376,"end":5248.033,"text":"我的直覺應該是可以啦 不過我們沒有希望它發生啦因為主委本席跟你談到這個就是大家都會歡樂像有的 剛才我們說的這個公道所有規案用"},{"start":5253.24,"end":5277.309,"text":"跟一張座而已有的分隊有的同意現在不就這張座還在唸說第一案不同意來第二案同意如果要再查票的時候是更加麻煩的沒辦法調查那是很麻煩的本市長剛才問的那個答案"},{"start":5280.45,"end":5289.153,"text":"你說最好不可以最好繼續到三天再做啦是啦但是就是有的人很煩惱的時候他可以向當地的選舉委員會說我不要了嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":5298.638,"end":5308.708,"text":"我相信應該是可以的 不過我跟委員分析一下我的經驗好不好我前陣子到現在還沒三個月啦我已經找了14個縣市的委員會跟縣市委員會的這個委員、這個監察所做的聲援、跟這個幹部的簽約、財団 都說基礎一點嘛"},{"start":5322.742,"end":5349.369,"text":"其中一點就是說很多人都說現在要目擊這個宣布江蘇聯盟真困難對 真困難 說我先這樣 又更加困難啊我問說到底是有意願過啊 還是怎麼人沒有啊不是啊 這是很好的一個考慮嘛 他說離空一半年一半的選舉 大家都怕死啊大家都怕到了啊 就是說 哇 怎麼這麼艱苦啊開票開到三幾百名啊"},{"start":5352.35,"end":5358.318,"text":"如果未來就是這樣,他們就不會了對,在這兩天,我們也覺得要公平公正在這個過程當中,像這樣開,你也知道李鴻一半年,所經過"},{"start":5371.286,"end":5379.851,"text":"什麼事情,你應該知道嘛,認真報名的選舉中,他為他的建築最美的一屆但是我們也不能說,因為沒有歸咎他的選委委員會的來臨在這個過程當中,我很煩惱,很害怕"},{"start":5394.139,"end":5421.025,"text":"因為尤其家庭企業時,早早就有報名有人看要去倒三天的嗎?沒有啦,不是倒三天而已在這幾天,靠電話來服務處說,我不愛啊,感激死啊因為他會怕啊,對,加上我們這個公道,要倒當然是民主的主流國家公道沒什麼"},{"start":5423.116,"end":5436.022,"text":"說有什麼牌,我認為公道很好,這是公道,要叫百姓來公道的時候,是不是他要知道,我們今天要去選舉,要去選公道,那時候如果他們的合謀,"},{"start":5442.509,"end":5454.762,"text":"有時候要去賺錢的時候才知道才知道說這案子這案子跟你們認為我們在23條要到1個月至6個月但是到處在17條他說要到10天"},{"start":5465.392,"end":5477.415,"text":"在這個過程當中,不是主委你害怕而已,我也很害怕而已因為選舉跟公道會亂來啦,尤其歐里桑歐巴桑你沒人說,他還知道要做什麼啊有時候,這公道不錯喔,我們會來倒喔,但是現在不是好壞啦現在是變正地去操弄他啦"},{"start":5494.38,"end":5507.356,"text":"主委 您是總理的單位啦 本事就是跟你說 阿母的發聲 我們就要來議訪啦但是你覺得說 今天的修法這兩位 這樣可以嗎"},{"start":5513.103,"end":5527.626,"text":"市長我已經有表達很清楚的立場就是說沒有涉及我們的犯罪啦我相信我們立法院如果真的認真地訴求這個問題國會一定會做出很好的決定啦這是最好啦不要再像那次這樣 大家都很害怕市長我還要再報告一項好不好好"},{"start":5540.405,"end":5552.055,"text":"這個未空二二年就中一半的這個高海域電視上去加一個小型的按鈕公道案那邊開票開到幾點你覺得呢?那邊一個按鈕開到按時11點40分"},{"start":5558.382,"end":5571.071,"text":"所以如果有兩個對立的講台灣,可能就要分店了可能要到12點半,台灣就是要到1、2點嘛這是客觀的現實,不是我們主觀想要愛或不愛的問題當這個雙擊兵到高層剛才你公佈你的結局的時候整個國際社會也覺得你台灣很奇怪"},{"start":5583.544,"end":5584.988,"text":"是不是我們拚這件事來發聲我認為這是我們全機台地方可以做出最好的決定"},{"start":5590.947,"end":5594.368,"text":"對啦,因為我覺得有問題可以說,我們也感謝今天的教委會當來這件問題,提來討論,提來說知道我們的問題一對,要怎麼處理最要緊啦以前沒睡,待一檔的,都說車沒人,車沒人所以我們才說,給他休息一天,跟他去的那一天,大都休息兩天"},{"start":5615.896,"end":5619.24,"text":"當然我們一般的負責,我們給他一點錢給他,我們就拜託他來,要三拜託四拜託,他還要做孫悟寧完呢,這犯錯了,各位,我認為這個你"},{"start":5636.059,"end":5652.732,"text":"最重要的事項一件 剛才剛才我有說這裡的條例的選項要一條一條寫的時候你也要知道 好不好好 等一下主席拜託給我一分鐘來請這個主委我們請電訊室主席喂好"},{"start":5665.52,"end":5674.635,"text":"市長,在這個過程當中,我的質詢要時間夠,但是這非常重要,所以我跟我們的署長討論一下,"},{"start":5677.691,"end":5688.815,"text":"因為矢板明夫在台中奉派你也很快就在機場找到他現在大家恍恍惚惚說阿強派人來亂社會這很要緊的事實上像那天發生以後未來你有什麼作為嗎"},{"start":5705.778,"end":5709.02,"text":"現在這案件目前繼續在做偵查當中因為這案件看起來就是一個跨境戰略的案件"},{"start":5725.33,"end":5746.618,"text":"未來對於我們這個擴充這案件我們絕對是依法原辦那對於這些我們保護的對象有做聯繫的管道包括人身住所這些的安全的維護的這些工作這個關東有完整的來做這樣的一個安全維護的這個措施"},{"start":5749.679,"end":5753.724,"text":"因為署長本席跟你探討的就是現在要選舉了那會亂選舉的人也不會我們也不知道但是在這個過程當中讓人很害怕的"},{"start":5765.858,"end":5778.302,"text":"我覺得如果我去台,如果我是住在自由民主的國家的台灣中華民國,我怎麼可以說我想要說的話?但是這樣放在台下的時候,是很沒力的,很惡劣的這如果聽到他的背後,他是針對中華民國的台灣的白痴來的"},{"start":5790.722,"end":5800.926,"text":"今年的九一選舉,不管是跨境戰略還是境外借選,這是我們工作的重點,我們一定會做好事市長,我們也要互相勉勵,因為我覺得這是非常重要"},{"start":5808.834,"end":5819.425,"text":"你如果看他大大大進來,大大大要叫他坐飛機,但他是沒有政務的所以你說未來就讓他選舉,會更加嚴謹,會更加弱弱的時候,我要老實說什麼事情還有可能發生,所以你們要去注意啦"},{"start":5833.143,"end":5833.723,"text":"我們現在請黃婕委員發言質詢"},{"start":5868.715,"end":5880.581,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請主委呃有主委好有主委歡迎人好"},{"start":5881.611,"end":5907.71,"text":"主委好 先跟您請教你上個月到宜蘭縣的選委會有召開這個選務的工作會議那你在致詞的時候有提到說今年的選舉能不能順利有四個關鍵的變數包括公投綁大選 陸會的參政權 身為影音 還有中共的借選那首先先跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為去年底立法院很遺憾的通過了這個公投綁大選"},{"start":5908.45,"end":5921.96,"text":"那只要公投成案的三到六個月有選舉就要合併選舉來辦理所以以今年的選舉來說11月28回推是不是公投的提案截止日期最後一天是8月30號"},{"start":5925.673,"end":5951.823,"text":"是的所以在八月底之前如果有送出的話年底就必須要來進行這個公投榜大選對不對如果送出然後經過中選會委員會議通過的話就要舉行公投所以以目前立法院已經有提出的這個藍白提出了六個公投案是不是很可能就會在年底進行"},{"start":5953.682,"end":5966.954,"text":"這個我目前不知道因為中選會的委員會議是一個合議制我只是委員中的議員而已所以還要看委員會的審議的結果"},{"start":5968.607,"end":5989.626,"text":"所以啊因為其實主委有說過說這個公投的提案一個恰恰好兩個有點多三個受不了所以如果這六個公投案要在年底來審查的話你們有辦法因應嗎如果都通過的話我們會覺得是非常沉重但是我們也要全力以赴"},{"start":5990.834,"end":6008.5,"text":"在這邊是想請教啦因為如果真的到時候年底有六個公投案那你們有辦法在三個月內完成這個公投意見發表會跟辯論會還有印製發送公投的公報還有投票的通知單甚至印製公投票這些等等的選務程序嗎"},{"start":6009.522,"end":6029.439,"text":"就省會行政來講我們應該可以辦得到你們辦得到但是真正的問題不是在這裡你不是說兩個有點多三個受不了嗎你甚至還說曾經說過說這個如果年底有很多公投的話可能是會非常沉重的負擔是對啊"},{"start":6029.799,"end":6045.15,"text":"這都是事實那我要講的黃委員其實我是說我們會工作負荷量會非常非常的大那但是我們依法行政我們就賣了命還是要去達成不用替選務人員講點話嗎當然我都覺得選務人員很辛苦很可憐"},{"start":6055.815,"end":6076.674,"text":"現在最辛苦壓力最大的可能是地方這一些到時候在第一線可能這個六還不知道還要加幾個的公投案甚至這些公投案的內容都是修法就可以解決的黃委員這就是我們的難處我們在立法院還沒有通過這六個案之前"},{"start":6077.555,"end":6098.31,"text":"我們就站在選務跟公投要兼顧的立場不斷的建議也呼籲希望立法院能夠考慮這些因素讓選務能夠順利的進行讓公投也能夠有幾個能夠完成我們一直都是這個立場所以"},{"start":6101.272,"end":6125.745,"text":"也的確謝謝黃委員指出來我們30萬顯目工作人員真的是很辛苦啦剛剛我們黃委員也特別提到顯目工作人員愁目不易的很重要原因就是公投量可能很多啦所以這個我們正在我們很擔心也很憂慮但是我們靜待國會審議的結果"},{"start":6128.925,"end":6156.12,"text":"所以在這邊也要幫這30萬的選務人員報區啊明明可以減輕他們的工作負擔明明很多法案的內容是立法委員的工作到時候卻丟給這30萬的選務人員增加他們這一些無謂的負擔我會覺得替他們覺得很可憐啦到時候他們可能還會面臨2018年這些邊投票邊開票然後有各種的選務亂象會不會開到這個半夜"},{"start":6158.001,"end":6176.224,"text":"都不知道希望這些事情不會再發生那我在這邊好最後一點時間我幫這個身障朋友來表達一下意見因為我有接到這個身障團體的意見說如果公投票到時候全部都印在同一張的話"},{"start":6177.185,"end":6203.16,"text":"那個這個對市長者會是一個非常非常大的困擾所以在這邊一定要嚴正的提醒到時候必須要兼顧這一些身障朋友的需求不管是到時候的無障礙設施還有公投票是他們是希望不要印在同一張因為我必須要說他們表達說這個目前的投票輔助器上面是有圓圖點的那如果你到時候分在放在同一張太小了他們會很難識別"},{"start":6204.821,"end":6224.884,"text":"然後如果又一堆公投案在同一張他們會對他們投票的障礙非常非常大所以在這邊替他們嚴正的表達這個是他們基本的公民權不要因為大家覺得說印在同一張對大多數人來說便利就犧牲他們的權益這一點很重要"},{"start":6226.244,"end":6237.351,"text":"對 所以我在這邊跟你建議 你的看法是什麼我們很明確的表明這個一票多案是不恰當的 目前來講還需要從長計議"},{"start":6242.295,"end":6256.654,"text":"不過以後如果有做好研究然後真正了解美國實施這樣的一個一票多案的整個制度的運作我們再來考量台灣適不適合好 我希望主委在這邊"},{"start":6257.194,"end":6276.323,"text":"掛保證因為我這邊真的有接到很多包括過去我們也沒有達到百分之百的無障礙設施那這個已經很多身障朋友跟我反應希望說可以非常的友善他們去投票大家票票等值每個人都有這樣子的權益那現在又有身這個視障者也來跟我反應"},{"start":6277.765,"end":6305.958,"text":"所以希望這一些意見你們都要深刻的放在心上到時候讓所有人都可以順利的投下這張票好嗎當然沒問題好這個是跟主委拜託那最後一點時間是希望這個因為最近這個石板明夫遭到攻擊的事件所以我必須要請不管是內政部然後我們中選會這裡都要慎防來因應所以最後一點時間是不是拜託次長"},{"start":6307.569,"end":6334.563,"text":"是署長都可以這個好 因為時間差不多了我就是做一個提醒因為這個現在看起來漏洞非常多嘛包括這個石板彌夫這個事情後來發現是六個人共同犯案然後香港的這個黑幫這個何勝和他們是還有現場還有人在幫他把風的喔這個是非常嚴重的甚至是當時這個都是這個何勝和跟中共是進行警黑合作的黑幫的一個團體嘛"},{"start":6336.804,"end":6357.389,"text":"所以我必須要說這次的選舉必須要審慎應應甚至還有新聞傳出說當天很可能蕭副總統也是要出席這個活動的所以他們的目標到底是針對現場的這些參與的人員還是是目標是放在我們的蕭副總統不得而知但是一定要謹慎應應好嗎 署長好 沒問題好 這個再拜託 謝謝"},{"start":6366.468,"end":6385.67,"text":"下一位請蘇清泉委員發言諮詢蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉不在 下一位請李坤澄委員發言諮詢好謝謝主席那我們請這個中選會有主委麻煩有主委"},{"start":6394.911,"end":6409.72,"text":"9月1號這個齁 年底啊11月18號有可能最多有到6個公投案嘛是不是我不知道那你知道現在有6個公投案準備要在律法院要做偵查所以我說吧"},{"start":6413.174,"end":6436.148,"text":"有可能最多會有六個公投案會在年底的11月18號來做投票這樣講法也沒有錯啦那中選會最後會做審查嗎當然我們依法我們要做審查那所以你們會有準或是不準的這個結果嗎是會有這樣的狀況會有這樣的狀況那什麼樣的狀況會這個公投會這個不成立"},{"start":6442.672,"end":6462.383,"text":"我們會依據公投法第二條第二項第三款立法院以及第四五條那相關的規定我們來委員會去審議是否符合這些規定好那所以就是說有六個公投最後會到中選會去做審查"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6486.135,"text":"如果都通過立法院的話立法院我看有可能啦 六個都會通過啦那所以會送到立法院審查那所以這個中學院審查 中學院審查之後也不一定最後是六個都會來公投就對了我不知道結果會是什麼那可是我之前有聽過這一個主委有提到就是說公投的數量的問題"},{"start":6488.236,"end":6502.607,"text":"那主委的意思是說一個我們還可以來做處理超過兩個以上對於學務人員來講就是一個很大的負擔是這是一個客觀的現實那如果真的萬一六個公投的話那怎麼辦那"},{"start":6505.819,"end":6523.569,"text":"那我們就只能夠硬著頭皮扛下來不是 那我的意思是說這不是我們能選擇的對 這不是你們能選擇那對 那但是這個我是說那會不會造成在選務上因為這個勢必造成選務的極大的困難會 那你預計這樣會開會不會開到12點之後"},{"start":6527.194,"end":6546.101,"text":"有一點我跟委員報告一下2022年也就是111年我們九合一地方選舉加修憲公投結果那一天只有一案開票開到11點40分才結束所以如果依照這個去估計的話"},{"start":6547.95,"end":6564.021,"text":"九合一加一案我們是毫無問題可以在當天就開完所有的票開到十一點多如果兩個案勢必就是要過十二點如果三個案的話大概就要一兩點如果四個案可能就是兩三點"},{"start":6565.558,"end":6590.514,"text":"這是一個客觀的一個現實就是一個曾經發生過的事實 當你在推估有可能兩個案以上就會開到凌晨絕對過12點那這是數量的問題 因為你也沒辦法決定不過我就再請教一下諸位因為我看 政業黨準備通過這六個公投我認為有一些是違憲的"},{"start":6591.909,"end":6604.381,"text":"那有一些呢是修法就可以來做的我簡單來講就是說這個有一個就是死刑不需要一次決死刑不需要一次決的公投"},{"start":6605.046,"end":6621.941,"text":"那可是呢我們這個憲法法庭的這個133年的憲判制第八號判決已經有提過啦各級的這個法院合一庭的法官判處死刑必須採取一致決嘛對不對那你如果這個公投的結果說不用採取一致決啊不是就違憲了嗎"},{"start":6625.014,"end":6640.064,"text":"本會是公投的審議機關在公投案還沒有確定成立的時候也還沒有經過委員會的審議我們不便表達任何評論啦我是說這個是 就學理上來講嘛"},{"start":6643.89,"end":6670.3,"text":"但是是就協理我平常如果沒有中選會主委的身份我可以跟你講三天三夜我現在不行對那我的意思是說這個違憲是不是屬於你們這個來來這個審查這個公投案是否最後會成立的一個要件違憲不是公投法所規定的一個過或不過的標準"},{"start":6671.089,"end":6692.358,"text":"不是不是那所以說你可以通過一個違憲的公投嗎?是否違憲要憲法法庭去判那我剛才講的啊這個要以自決這個是憲法法庭的這個113年這個憲八字派的判決啊那如果你過了一個跟這個憲法法庭的一個判決是是抵觸的一個公投那可以投下去嗎?"},{"start":6694.161,"end":6722.149,"text":"就這個部分來講我們審查的標準就是公投法第二條跟第四五條那標準是怎麼樣你可不可以稍微講一下立法院所提出的公投案是否符合重大政策的創制或覆決是否是重大政策的創制或覆決如果只是重大如果它是牽涉到立法院者的創制那顯然就不符合"},{"start":6722.728,"end":6746.647,"text":"公投法15條的規定那所以有可能會發生一個違憲的公投然後讓人民來公投那是一個想像中的一個狀況沒有啊沒有想像中啊這有可能會發生啊對不對就是說在檔案上人事都通過了啊是違憲的一個判斷"},{"start":6748.141,"end":6765.291,"text":"這是只有憲法法庭可以解決所以意思是說這個公投最後如果可以投然後這個憲法法庭再判他違憲因為就只有憲法法庭可以來做最前衛的判決所以最後有可能就是這種結果就對了是不是"},{"start":6766.328,"end":6793.15,"text":"就是說我們就照程序上來講嘛如果憲法法庭因為有人公投結果出來之後那有人去去去釋憲申請釋憲啊因為這個就是跟你的這個憲法第八號判製就就就就抵觸了啊有可能就是這樣啊所以最後結果有可能投出來又是違憲就是就是有人申請釋憲大家就他就是說你這個公投違憲是否違憲因為我你我都不是大法官所以我們沒辦法決定"},{"start":6794.056,"end":6817.773,"text":"好 那對啊 所以我的意思是說有可能會發生這種結果嗎 是不是不曉得 希望不會啦希望不會 希望不會是說不會有公投還是說不會有違憲不過在這裡的確會出現一個問題就是說憲法法庭所做的這些決定根據中選會上一次的一個"},{"start":6821.285,"end":6842.679,"text":"委員會的審查的確已經強烈暗示任何違反憲法法庭的判決的都不以成為公投的項目你說誰強烈暗示就是中選會的委員會的審查的時候對於上次的反會使的公投沒有通過嘛"},{"start":6843.823,"end":6863.012,"text":"整個中選會委員會當時的思考已經有這樣的一個強烈的暗示好那這是第一個齁這還有六個但是我趕快簡單講因為我時間已經到了邊形公投也是啊邊形公投它至少已經違反了這一個公民政治權利國際公約這兩公約啦對不對"},{"start":6866.397,"end":6874.051,"text":"我不能對這個發表任何的評論因為我不適合公投可以限制人權嗎可以剝奪人權嗎"},{"start":6877.096,"end":6897.235,"text":"理論上不行不過我們的公投法沒有包括這一項這是未來可能貴院要修法的重點所以你也認為說公投不能去剝奪人民的這一個我當然認為啊但是它不是公投法所列的明定事項的這一個項目啊"},{"start":6897.595,"end":6917.292,"text":"那所以你就認為說這個會有問題的我認為我們立法院應該未來修法重新考慮公投的項目是否不能違背人權那這個不在籍投票勒不在籍投票會不會有違反憲法相關的規定"},{"start":6919.929,"end":6947.807,"text":"比如說違反直接投票的規定啊然後也違反這個憲法正義修條文這個要反國行使投票的這個權利啊因為我是中選會委員會的主席我不宜針對你所提的這個問題表示任何的立場或態度好那所以我接下來要再問啊就是說有些可以透過修法的啊比如說交通法緩專用啊反正立法院就可以修法通過嘛對不對對"},{"start":6950.08,"end":6960.48,"text":"看起來是啊看起來是嘛,對啊然後呢,這個廢除非核家園已經也投過了好幾次了啦熱死的法治的話,那其實也是可以透過修法嘛,是不是"},{"start":6961.457,"end":6987.335,"text":"是啊也是所以我是覺得說這個當然有政治上面的一個目的性你我皆知但是我只是強調說有一些有違憲之餘有一些透過修法就可以用所以我是要減輕你們的負擔是謝謝你那我們中選會只能依法行政好那不過你也講出來就是說這個超過一案以上就會開到12點之後是是是好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":6994.265,"end":6994.732,"text":"好 休息五分鐘"},{"start":7047.449,"end":7048.801,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7261.715,"end":7263.22,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7333.715,"end":7355.155,"text":"好我們繼續開會我們下一位請鄭振前委員發言質詢鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前不在下一位請陳冠廷委員發言質詢我們請主委好由主委"},{"start":7367.931,"end":7381.066,"text":"現在中選會在評估是不是有可能在下一次的大選就會有不在籍投票的適用那你們的評估是這樣的做法合不合宜"},{"start":7382.131,"end":7402.747,"text":"這要看我們立法院是否決定要正式立法在目前沒有任何立法的情況底下不在即投票不會實施不會實施那最新我們看這個在野黨是不是有提出相關的修法"},{"start":7406.653,"end":7436.033,"text":"似乎一直都有但是我們立法院並沒有正式的通過任何有關不在籍投票的法令那你來就你們的行政層面來講假設不在籍投票第一次假設他通過了不管是通過公投的方式通過還是修法的方式通過那已經決定要實行不在籍投票那而且實行不在籍投票的狀況他是以公投跟大選的時候來實行的不在籍投票會有什麼樣的行政上面的困難"},{"start":7437.293,"end":7464.383,"text":"那是一個天大的災難怎麼說九合一地方選舉所牽涉到的是要選出一萬一千多個我們的地方行政首長或者民意代表或村里長那我們在這個過程裡面有八千九百零六種選票那有一萬八千兩百二十七個投票所"},{"start":7465.325,"end":7481.061,"text":"在這樣的可以說全世界最複雜的地方選舉裡面實施不在即投票勢必造成這個投開票上面的極大的一個混亂那可能會癱瘓整個選務系統"},{"start":7486.206,"end":7514.495,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主委其實我擔心的它不僅僅是癱瘓而已而是癱瘓之後還是要開票開票之後就會有某些在野黨的人士來去質疑選舉不公那這個是特別是我就直接講特別是民眾黨最喜歡做這樣的事情他們會不斷地想要把這種各種的花招用在選舉上面然後質疑現行已經成熟的選舉體制台灣的成熟的選舉體制其實被各個國家他們都拿去參考"},{"start":7514.835,"end":7531.289,"text":"因為我們是直接資本投票我們在即投票我們投票完之後隨即開票開票完之後大家都會看到從驗票的人員或者是說現場來觀看的人員全部都可以知道直接把這個投票箱直接把它拆開讓大家看到就算是這個樣子"},{"start":7532.981,"end":7561.756,"text":"民眾黨過去還是質疑說沒有啦那個選票不公啦這個還是民調比較準啦你怎麼可以民調我們贏啊怎麼可以看選票而已事實上就是有這樣子的人在質疑這樣的質疑如果在現行的狀況之下他們都在質疑的話你未來只要稍微有這種類似我們行政上面的困難的話甚至是在這個上次2018年2018年的時候還投開票的時候已經在開票的時候還有人在投票那一定會造成人民的不信任"},{"start":7562.196,"end":7571.317,"text":"我就根本就不用再說韓國的狀況了韓國的舉行地方選舉的時候也是不再集投票那要產生第一個投票所他的選舉票數不足"},{"start":7572.233,"end":7598.568,"text":"他一度還暫停你說這是選務的狀況一定到最後就把他拿去陰謀論這都過去都有存在的狀況了就連在在即投票直接投完票之後馬上開票所有人都在睜著眼看他們都可以在懷疑更何況是其他的方式那我們再來請教另外一個問題假設有人申請不在即投票請問他是要本人去辦理還是書面辦理即可"},{"start":7599.961,"end":7622.535,"text":"因為目前還沒有正式立法你認為哪一個方式比較好就是說是本人要親自來去選務機關辦理說我要這個移轉投票去務政機關辦理我要移轉投票還是只要書面申請在線上申請就好如果有不在籍投票初期一定要本人才"},{"start":7624.564,"end":7652.374,"text":"還是比較好的本來會比較妥當那萬一他們會說不是啊我們再套一個民眾黨的說法他們最喜歡講這種我們要便利我們要一化我們要線上申請就好了結果他的線上申請之後他發覺到說我到他本地他在籍的地方去投票還發覺到說他被申請不在籍他的投票所不在他的本籍本戶籍地是在其他他的居住地這種狀況要怎麼防備我的意思是說"},{"start":7653.966,"end":7669.736,"text":"韓國有這次的狀況美國上次的總統大選一樣不管是郵寄的這個投票也好或者是這種不在籍投票不斷的都被另外一派反對派的支持派的都拿去來質疑他們選舉的正當性選舉正當性一旦被質疑"},{"start":7670.416,"end":7694.464,"text":"就會導致我們民主的基石受到侵擾我們為什麼要對這個不再集投票會有這個非常的警惕的原因也在於此韓國是一個例子美國是一個例子各個其他國家包含電子投票很多其他的例子都不斷的出現民眾開始不信任整個制度為了不要讓民眾不信任我們應該要做的是要確保現行已經能夠被信任的選舉制度能夠繼續下去"},{"start":7696.065,"end":7711.796,"text":"我個人是比較希望是朝這個方向那如果退而求其次至少不能夠是在這一個在選舉這個待遇式的時候有類似這樣的狀況不然混淆的狀況會特別特別的嚴重我還是在強調不管是韓國的例子美國的例子"},{"start":7712.637,"end":7735.11,"text":"都有這個之前的比較不好的狀況發生那我們如果累積成為各個國家都認為我們現在的選舉制度是值得來去參考的那我們就要把我們這個典範來做一個更好的維持讓每一個人都能夠尊重我們選舉的制度好 謝謝"},{"start":7742.982,"end":7752.653,"text":"因為有一些委員跟本委會表示,還在其他委員會質詢,那我們就稍等一下再稍作休息一下"},{"start":7769.706,"end":7777.092,"text":"主委我們再簡單另外一個好,我們就繼續開會,請陳冠廷委員繼續發言沒關係,你要問就問主委可以嗎?主委沒關係,答應你了就你再繼續問"},{"start":7787.593,"end":7808.875,"text":"所以另外一個問題就是我上次比較擔心的就是這個就跟今天的這個公投等等就是混淆的部分就是說有人試圖來去混淆其他人的投票行為也就是說假借其他政黨然後來去算了沒關係我們今天這個我私下再問因為其他委員已經到了好"},{"start":7827.082,"end":7827.943,"text":"我們就下一位請楊瓊英委員發言質詢"},{"start":7846.618,"end":7848.421,"text":"非常感謝主席 楊前銘發言 邀請內政部來 吳政志"},{"start":7860.399,"end":7875.843,"text":"內政部我今天要跟你討論的是警察消防移民以及空勤人員肩負的我們第一線的維護公共安全非常的重要的責任但是他們也長期面臨到什麼呢高風險高壓力的一個勤務環境"},{"start":7877.564,"end":7905.242,"text":"那所以終於內政部也在6月份的時候你們第二次召開了警消勤務安全促進與事件調查會你要修正了員警因公射送輔助制度列為優先改革的事項那你同時也同步推動了火場有害物質暴露的管理第二個是獨駕因為現在真的是民眾人心惶惶"},{"start":7908.864,"end":7930.349,"text":"獨駕執行安全的一個防護跟外勤裝備優化的這個措施這是在你這一次改革的三大方向那本席給予這個肯定但是在第一線的執行人員他不僅是裝備不足他最重要的就是依法執行之後他必須"},{"start":7933.035,"end":7952.953,"text":"要面臨到漫長的這個訴訟還有高額的這個法律費用以及沉重的心理壓力那這個對於整個在國家我們請他們在第一線維護我們的公共安全的時候社會安全的時候政府應該是要做他最堅實的一個護盾啊"},{"start":7953.837,"end":7977.65,"text":"如果沒有如此他的心理會因為這樣子擔心訴訟或者是影響他的一個執法判斷或者是會甚至導致寒蟬的一個效應所以我個人認為本席認為要建立完善的法律保障跟支持制度才能夠讓真正在第一線的執行人員他真正的"},{"start":7978.33,"end":7996.977,"text":"來放心安心的去質詢而且他的效能才會高也就是落實部長所說的一句話不讓英雄流血又流淚的一個承諾不讓英雄流血又流淚的一個承諾所以我要請教內政部你規劃"},{"start":7998.277,"end":8027.416,"text":"修正員警應供射送輔助制度你預計要將你會新增哪些具體的一個保障措施嗎請做說明好 謝謝委員的關心我想我們包括內政部跟警政署消防署都是一樣我們一定是我們所有基層同仁的一個後盾那在請安會中我們部長也有交代說要就這個部分來做個整理那細節的部分我可不可以請我們署長來把相關的來做一個說明"},{"start":8030.098,"end":8052.418,"text":"好謝謝委員那我們在前幾天的前安會有討論到這個議題那這個目前就是在前安會會在做一個工作小組那對於因公射送我們一定是站在這個不管是警政消防一定是他們最堅強的貨盾這是依法來執行那造成這個因公射送你不能只有口說啊"},{"start":8054.76,"end":8069.592,"text":"應供射送的一個補助辦法那這個補助辦法裡面如果這裡面有最大部分大概就是在射送期間是不是長那在律師的費用這些補助的是不是要更完善我們要朝這方面來做"},{"start":8072.334,"end":8090.103,"text":"這個部分就是我們會來修更完善的一個對他的一個支柱那第二部分當然就是我們的主觀大概也會這個對於這個因公社社會同仁在不管是在心理層面的這個方面給提供"},{"start":8091.443,"end":8103.808,"text":"對比較尤其就是新府的這個部分讓他不管是在機關或者是委外機構提供他這樣的一個資源那讓這一些移工社中同學心裡沒有負擔我們應該會在盡快 現在未來就討論在盡快的這個機會裡面來做完成這個移工社中補助辦法的一個修正蘇長請問你們什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":8118.736,"end":8135.402,"text":"我因為因公在執行勤務而還要去漫長的接受這個訴訟的心理壓力還好你剛剛有提到這個部分然後我還要出高額的法律訴訟費我誰敢做啊"},{"start":8137.723,"end":8159.313,"text":"我現在這個部分大概都有在補助啦就是說他也不是補助你不要一直用補助兩個字我是因公怎麼一次補助本來政府就要支持所以我特別說了支持制度啊是這制度當然是支持啦在這個程序不是制度支持實施你要採取支持啊而不是用補助啊"},{"start":8160.376,"end":8184.021,"text":"一定會支持 會朝這個方向來我們有達成共識 大家都知道 要照顧他們 要讓他們安心去執勤那請問 你什麼時候會出來因為這個宣示是對於我們第一線的員警 警消協情人員 外情人員這是幫助很大 你要先讓他們安心嘛 要家屬都不安心"},{"start":8185.742,"end":8197.592,"text":"請說我們定數來延綠這個項目的修正你告訴我一個大約方向吧我不能漫長啊請安會你告訴我大概會多少你是直屬機關單位的最高主管啊那這部就站在你旁邊啊請問多久"},{"start":8204.895,"end":8219.368,"text":"前面大概在八九月那邊會討論那我想如果這個制度能夠修應該是不是在半年內再來把它做這樣的加強來做一個處理這個很重要啦因為我如果還要這些訴訟費我怎麼執勤"},{"start":8221.51,"end":8235.947,"text":"會影響到執行的判斷力你要有一個寒產效應下去我們的治安怎麼辦他太辛苦了我們要做他的後盾所以你時間內政部在這裡不能那麼久啦"},{"start":8236.804,"end":8261.097,"text":"對不對 你三個月才開一次會我們員警是每一天24小時都在第一線欸警消 外勤人員 第一線24小時欸你要三個月開一次 為什麼要這麼久像這樣子專案必要的你不可以提早開嗎你不可以同步討論嗎你不可以同步進行嗎還要叫我等半年我怎麼執勤啊怎麼辦"},{"start":8264.332,"end":8287.325,"text":"加速腳步好了我們來加速腳步因為這種包括了心理這是壓抑很大的國家的必要條件一個成功的國家他是一定要安全的安全要有人去做啊我們要做他的靠山啊後盾啊對不對連一個訴訟我們都沒有支持費用沒有支持心理沒有支持他他怎麼給我們執勤"},{"start":8289.326,"end":8302.511,"text":"好不好 署長 部長 我們都達成共識了 拜託最後一個議題 警政署愛爾利伊美發生的這個事情現在也遭受了 已經提取起訴了"},{"start":8306.992,"end":8320.371,"text":"但是我們之前他也捐了給我們很多的不管器材啊或者給予這個打炸的獎金嘛那署長您也曾經跟他們出席過這個反炸宣傳活動嘛"},{"start":8321.397,"end":8340.084,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下我們官方的網站有沒有把這些下架都已經下架了有沒有下架下架下架不要讓民眾有誤解有誤導因為你警政署不能讓人家做牽棒啊對不對這個是非常重要有全部下架了嗎下架下架"},{"start":8341.044,"end":8363.84,"text":"全部下架了 這個很重要耶所以我們必須要好好的去檢視我們謝謝所有的企業界支持我們因為政府的力量的確是不夠但是在過程當中我們仍舊要小心應對尤其像這個已經起訴的我們務必一定要全部下架不要再讓社會大眾有所誤解"},{"start":8364.56,"end":8374.49,"text":"因為警政署是維護治安你必須採在中性以及公信力、中立的一個原則嘛對不對好謝謝好我們現在會請吳祁銘委員發言質詢"},{"start":8389.79,"end":8392.276,"text":"好 召委一位同仁 請我們中選會我們的主委"},{"start":8401.703,"end":8408.866,"text":"各位好 今天收討論的公職人員選舉有辦法尤其大家都關心在我們的今年的11月28號大選尤其過去2018公投亂象 大家都過成一個大家都不可原諒的"},{"start":8424.692,"end":8433.378,"text":"所以說在這種情形下尤其大家關心現在的公投我看民眾黨跟國民黨又提了六個公投案"},{"start":8434.145,"end":8457.93,"text":"那主委你也知道因為你所說的一個公投是恰恰好啦兩個公投也有過多三個公投根本就受不了因為你人力跟整個的亂象不能再重複所以說在中情營化我請問我們主委你要怎麼來來好止說這公投案件不要超過13個還是幾個來做個說明是"},{"start":8464.231,"end":8474.594,"text":"謝謝吳委員,我是經過離港一半年,一百多年,一百十大公島造成的災難,為何出發去索賀一個重大問題"},{"start":8481.27,"end":8497.021,"text":"公道拔大蒜 其實這也是民進黨傳統的主意大蒜重要 公道也重要但是當民進黨拔災害時我們是不是應該去思考一個重大問題就是說是要怎麼比雙培黨損失的前提之下有幾個公道的所謂是最適當的"},{"start":8506.047,"end":8510.652,"text":"我們社會應該要開始鎖口這個問題我們國會也應該去鎖口這個問題當然我站在中雙會主委的立場我是一個後裔"},{"start":8518.991,"end":8533.077,"text":"我是建議 應該要為這個風雲去思考並沒有預約任何的分寸啦因為站在中山河的珠月就對我們要很辛苦 就是說很確定的"},{"start":8538.669,"end":8555.061,"text":"在考慮雙部的考量組成的困難的情形之下,跟人民報告,跟陸委會報告,跟國會報告所以在這個情形之下,我們主觀上當然是會希望經過離空一半年的這個經驗"},{"start":8557.923,"end":8571.07,"text":"九合一選舉,如果加一個公道,我們可以處理,有得到處理,就像當前的九合一選舉一樣加了一個修憲的公道,我們有得到處理,所以如果問話稍微比較長,如果三合一就很難回答,很難回答,我是這個意思"},{"start":8581.555,"end":8587.339,"text":"所以說公道 證明說公道越多的亂象就越嚴重尤其過去十個 你看這十個亂象邊開票邊投票 這些都亂象 所以說我們過去有這種傳統的"},{"start":8602.269,"end":8608.675,"text":"會讓他精力過以後我們就要怎麼來好治不要再重操過去這種的錯誤所以你也堅持說是不是說不要超過三個要來制定跟我們民眾黨跟國民黨大家來溝通"},{"start":8619.386,"end":8630.253,"text":"所以說因為你越說頭越多這陣子問題會發生越嚴重所以說這陣子的部分我希望我們總選會一定要說在這個門檻是不是可以充分跟大家來做溝通再來尤其現在是AI的科技現在科技的時代因為你說在網路不實的謠傳尤其選舉"},{"start":8646.724,"end":8651.066,"text":"這個部分要怎麼來好止這個部分這是應該我們總選委要先來做優弊的工程是,謝謝國務院的指教這個AI的年代,這個網絡的時代"},{"start":8664.111,"end":8686.519,"text":"這個雙基基幹所出現的這種身為隱隱的殺傷力啦那槍擊很大的嘛 會去傷害到我們的好山林傷害到山井所以我們中山河有為了要去面對這個問題我們最近我們也自己熱波也有成立一個這個防治這個身為隱隱的一個內部的機制啦但是"},{"start":8692.441,"end":8710.641,"text":"中山河是一個小黨委其實主要的光臨在辦宣布啦對這個新的時代的這個委協社會影響還是說境外勢力這樣的感覺中山河我們是沒有資料去處理我坦白講是這樣但是我們也沒有推卸責任我們可以做的我們盡量去做"},{"start":8713.424,"end":8726.393,"text":"不能做的我們不如我們還有國安會還有我們監察系統 法務部 內政部 事務部 周圍來做"},{"start":8728.314,"end":8752.403,"text":"把這個衝擊降到最低就對了 為這個風雄的事務好感謝 感謝我們的總選委主委其實我們跨部會一定要充分的配合因為現在這個選舉每一邊不時的造謠啦 抹黑啦尤其在網路上這種 也要說邀請各單位共同充分來做討論啦"},{"start":8754.764,"end":8756.805,"text":"我們現在為請葉元之委員發言質詢主要我們請那個中學會主委謝謝"},{"start":8790.65,"end":8805.199,"text":"主委先來問一下 因為今年的年底可能會大選綁公投我看到主委呼籲 一個恰恰好 兩個有點多 三個受不了然後主委同時也幫2018年中選會的同仁報區因為那個時候10個民間的連署通通成案"},{"start":8812.463,"end":8828.334,"text":"我覺得你現在等於是幫公投設了一個框架就是好像是說公投就不要太多太多我們中選會受不了所以可能會出現2018的狀況我自己是覺得這有點陰夜沸石啦就是按照民進黨過去推公投的那種強烈的動機啊"},{"start":8830.795,"end":8849.526,"text":"過去民進黨的前輩為了公投這個上街頭然後那麼努力在推結果現在居然說因為中選會可能負荷不了所以呢哎呀公投就不要太多我現在還有講到公投的實質內容我覺得這樣的態度in your face就好比說不要出車禍大家不要開車就好"},{"start":8850.066,"end":8877.714,"text":"重點應該是中選會怎麼去針對假設你就是要料理也不是料理什麼就是說你要想說可能會很多我中選會怎麼去解決這個問題而不是說因為會很多所以你們最好少投一點這個不是民主國家應有的思維方式啦所以我覺得這個主委可能您要解決這個問題不是叫大家少提一點而是說怎麼去想辦法就行政上面來解決這個主委不知道您怎麼看"},{"start":8878.584,"end":8906.927,"text":"我覺得把所有問題歸之於行政這叫做行政萬能這個可能也不見得對啦那就是政府的問題啦就像現在有的問題你說我們政府能力不足啊你不能怪政府你也見多識廣我舉一個例子當Katrina摧毀那個美國的大城市叫什麼New OrleansKatrina摧毀New Orleans的時候要怪"},{"start":8907.874,"end":8914.541,"text":"New Orleans這個整個建築太差嗎整個這個水道這個設備不好嗎人民這個 我要講就是說"},{"start":8919.668,"end":8944.729,"text":"十項公投這個是可以說百年一遇啦要等到什麼時候還有整個社會沸騰等一下周委你有點搞錯我問的方向我現在不是在講2018誰對誰錯啦我現在是講說如果這一次就算有很多公投中選會的態度應該是就行政補強就像你舉天災例子嘛921那個天災過去的建築法規的規定很多房子可能在房政要求沒有那麼高"},{"start":8945.229,"end":8960.667,"text":"後來我們也更改法規啊所以現在防證要求是多的啊那你2018發生這樣的事情那你現在如果面對一樣公投的數量我中選會怎麼去因應嘛而不是告訴大家說三個我受不了啦所以你們少提一點你不能這樣啊你誤解我的意思啊"},{"start":8961.508,"end":8977.214,"text":"我們現在我們從2004年開始才有公投綁大選之前通通沒有嘛我所說的就是說我們如何汲取2018的慘痛的經驗教訓就真的受不了嘛"},{"start":8978.535,"end":8995.635,"text":"好像只能提三個一樣不然我就受不了啦我是在建議我建議啦你這受不了了大家就會覺得我覺得社會應該思考這個問題不要光想這個公投如何如何或者是選務如何如何現在是兩個結論"},{"start":8996.736,"end":9025.431,"text":"沒有啦 剛才該提就 我是覺得該提就提啦該提就提 那中選會就是要因應啦 這第一個點第二點 我看到民進黨在我們站在選務的立場 我們必須要很客觀的來告訴我們第二點啦 我已經表達了 那主委我希望您可以聽進去第二個就是 我看到民進黨的黨團說要 說現在在野黨提很多公投啊中選會要嚴格把關啊 要嚴審啊什麼 下指導旗啊"},{"start":9026.352,"end":9046.091,"text":"這個主委你會受到民進黨黨團的壓力嗎我們覺得超然公正中立這個中學會大家要期待客觀然後再來我想延續上一次我跟你們的詢答因為今天我們在討論的是選舉的秩序我們最近一次大選就是去年的罷免我就舉去年罷免的案例"},{"start":9046.992,"end":9074.679,"text":"那這個案例我上次也問過 你們請警政署一起上來好不好我就用這個案例來詢問 假設這一次發生一樣的事情這個是 講一下 這是上一次罷免的時候 在我那個選區出現的狀況在投開票所外 就有看到應該這是罷團的志工 或是罷團我不知道啦謝謝你們 然後放了一個這個LOGO 右下角那個LOGO那個LOGO是什麼呢 幫大家回顧一下 這就是罷免娃娃"},{"start":9076.133,"end":9090.749,"text":"罷免娃娃在投票當天投開票所外面舉牌子放的是罷免娃娃這很清楚這就好比說郵輸委以前選舉過嗎你可不可以叫你的志工在投票當天放你的照片"},{"start":9091.65,"end":9105.624,"text":"也許不寫游鷹籠 但是呢就放你的照片可以這樣子嗎那一天主委給我的答案是模擬兩可模擬兩可說啊這個我們要查一下看一下這個什麼離投開票所多近啊不敢回答"},{"start":9106.824,"end":9130.083,"text":"但是後來你們有回文啊你們回文有一點就寫得非常清楚公職人員選舉罷免法第56條第二款規定政黨及任何人不得在投票日從事競選、助選或罷免活動很顯然在投開票所外面放罷免娃娃這是不是活動?是不是選舉活動?主委是不是?"},{"start":9131.224,"end":9139.032,"text":"當然是啊是好那我為什麼請警政署來呢因為那一天這個事情呢我的支持者有當下去報警"},{"start":9140.533,"end":9157.467,"text":"我想問署長 正常的SOP 如果今天有人選舉然後他的志工在投票當天放他的照片在投票票的門口如果有人報警 警察在現場怎麼處理那我們會了解這個現場的狀況 授證完之後會不會辦我們有選監小組跟檢察官 我們會依法來授證會辦嗎會處理那你知道那一天怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":9164.264,"end":9166.586,"text":"警察到了現場說確認一下沒有什麼問題請他離開可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":9175.017,"end":9195.751,"text":"剛剛主委已經講了 主委說這個很明顯是有選舉行為 也有報警了 警察到現場說沒有問題請他離開我們應該是會依法處理 那為什麼沒有依法處理你去查一下這個有沒有立案好不好 就是沒有啊 就沒有嘛所以這就一個很明顯的放水嘛 大免的放水"},{"start":9197.332,"end":9208.002,"text":"那如果今年1128我就問1128那如果又有候選人做一樣的狀況有人報警警察到現場一樣看一看沒有請他離開嗎會這樣子嗎"},{"start":9210.66,"end":9229.502,"text":"還是會立案那我們一定會依法來處理啦依法嘛 那是怎麼樣是依法嘛 請他離開叫依法還是說至少要留一下名字然後請公主會討論一下這個有沒有有沒有選舉的行為然後再做出一個處分有問題的處分或沒問題的處分是怎麼樣"},{"start":9230.163,"end":9248.247,"text":"是 那因為這個有牽涉到可能就是我現在簡單講一下啦就是說選票法的規律裡面投票票所當時有30公尺內以內的跟以外的這個行為啦這個是另外的問題你不能在離投票當中那遇到這個狀況如果說因為看到這個狀況如果說是瞬間來有經過勸討有經過制止他已經就離開沒有這個行為那當然可能就是有一些"},{"start":9257.51,"end":9284.764,"text":"主委我現在講的是當天能不能從事選舉活動如果今天有一個人他PO了一個臉書要現場選舉當天他的志工說請自治調查然後你勸導他他嚇下來他就沒事了嗎依選報法的規定是不能從事這些的規定不行嘛對嘛那為什麼沒有就是請他離開呢為什麼我們應該是會沒有就沒有嘛不然你先去查嘛好啦我們來了解對不對我再秀一下照片給你看好不好幫我再秀一下"},{"start":9285.663,"end":9312.017,"text":"投票當天謝謝你們放一個罷免娃娃謝謝你們投罷免嘛那這個警察就請他離開了主委請問一下中選會主委是可以這樣子嗎這個就是哪個案不要說今年到11月28號一樣對不對拿一個照片然後說你趕快離開趕快離開我當面看到就好可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":9313.001,"end":9327.814,"text":"那我們今天我們也已經正式新聞給你我們的態度不可以嘛 對嘛所以這就是執行面的問題嘛那署長請你去了解一下好不好那希望128不要再出現類似的狀況可以嗎好 謝謝署長"},{"start":9336.371,"end":9357.735,"text":"下一位請陳廷飛委員發言質詢陳廷飛陳廷飛陳廷飛不在下一位請徐欣盈委員發言質詢好謝謝主席本席首先請我們內政部次長次長好委員好"},{"start":9365.294,"end":9386.864,"text":"市長我本來是要詢問部長但是您代表部長我們看到你們內政部的報告針對我們接下來的地方公職人員選舉這個是非常重要台灣民主的基石整個選舉過程一定要公平公正公開"},{"start":9388.064,"end":9410.986,"text":"那我們在內政部報告書中特別強調內政部的報告說警政署已經要求各警察局成立了假訊息查處小組要依據行政院的惡假害惡意還有虛假造假然後危害的標準來積極偵辦假訊息"},{"start":9413.564,"end":9442.278,"text":"那本席在這邊要很嚴肅的請教您啊你們是不是正在把第一線的基層員警推上政治審查與言論法官的火線他們哪裡有辦法去做這個判定除了有一些有啦比如說說哪個候選人出了車禍其實沒有或者是他生重病這個可以但是有很多像是言論自由可受公平的這個部分"},{"start":9443.257,"end":9447.465,"text":"那我們第一層的員警他有什麼能力在幾小時內做出判斷是"},{"start":9448.837,"end":9472.229,"text":"我想跟委員先報告 等一下我不主播 我再請我們警政署來你們盡快簡答我想第一個因應這次的選舉這個部分當然各地方的選務我們的警察同仁本來就是有關查查會選的部分就是他本來應辦的工作那這一次有關如果說有像假訊息假訊息這一塊假訊息這一塊 這個低層的基層員警"},{"start":9473.61,"end":9498.141,"text":"他有些牽扯到言論自由我剛剛有舉例嘛有些他可以判定的那今天基層員警我們也擔心一個情況就是如果對某特定候選人他的言論他都判定這個是言論自由對另一方的候選人就這個所講的就馬上澄清說不對這是假訊息"},{"start":9499.521,"end":9519.22,"text":"這個很危險啦這次選戰你這個推給第一層員警有些這種惡意有害跟合理質疑的這個界線連法官檢察官可能都要花幾個月審理可是現在你們在報告裡寫交給第一層員警這個我們覺得這很可怕"},{"start":9519.54,"end":9535.92,"text":"是那委員我是不是請我們署長來做一下說我們如何來進行跟委員報告絕對不是基層員警來判斷那誰判斷有正義的專責小組就是每個機關有專責小組那現在要提的就是你現在專責小組我也擔心啊你那專責小組的判定這個假訊息"},{"start":9538.403,"end":9558.417,"text":"要配合主管機關去做釐清他的這個主責的是哪一個機關有他們機關會繼續判有的不是在內政部的這個範圍有的是在其他部會有主管機關會認定這個的訊息的真實性是什麼有主管機關那委員剛剛提的很好有一些就是說可能就是言論自由"},{"start":9558.737,"end":9570.084,"text":"那就它內容裡面 它的那個界限你怎麼辦它的界限 它的內容裡面是不是要違反相關法律的規定就是它講的內容通常選戰 我們太有經驗通常選戰沒有什麼規範所以好 沒關係 因為這一題太久了所以我這邊要要求啦"},{"start":9578.729,"end":9601.864,"text":"我們內政部請你重新評估假訊息不帶偵查終結就發布新聞澄清的規範你們一定要有對整個你們人家報警或是警察單位你一定要有一個具體規範其實我覺得你們連規範都很難我簡單講假訊息一定是下架澄清"},{"start":9604.504,"end":9619.014,"text":"下架澄清但是我們現在就擔心警察機關在選前關鍵時刻成為某單方面打壓特定陣營言論的政治工具沒有維護行政中立這是最擔心的"},{"start":9622.877,"end":9639.655,"text":"現在就是我們還研究到可能是從境外的這個狀況進來的沒關係跟你討論我覺得你們是不是可以盡快給出這個規範好不好我們要訂出來我們也必須要很清楚接著還有很重要更重要的"},{"start":9640.757,"end":9655.915,"text":"我看你們不只假訊息審查有問題你們的身為影音見識當然本席在這裡也要肯定我們在內政委員會從兩年前每一次中選會來還有內政部來我們都一再的"},{"start":9658.057,"end":9682.573,"text":"強調現在AI深偽影音的判定太重要了所以我可以先肯定你們的是你們開始有作為包括速發補那這裡呢我要特別先對你們說你們報告上面寫依據選罷法第51條之3規定候選人如果發現被深偽AI深偽抹黑可以向警察機關申請鑑識可是"},{"start":9685.515,"end":9707.321,"text":"本席在這邊要揭穿你們這天大謊言你們刑事局有鑑識設備但是我請教你全國五合一的選舉有多少候選人那這個AI審委出現以後他們一定是跟在地的派出所跟分局來報案可是我們發現中央有技術基層沒招數你這個"},{"start":9710.402,"end":9731.274,"text":"基層的派出所跟分局你要怎麼去判定?請回答因為受理之後我們刑事局的一個身為的鑑識的一個軟體的工具那目前就是說一個案大概就是四個小時內大概就可以了解到這個相關的這個真假剛剛有委員你有問到嘛"},{"start":9731.894,"end":9752.979,"text":"那我想我沒注意所以不是只有我們這個機關可以做身為包括調查局也會有這樣的調查局你們找調查局調查局會不會說這是你們的事不會不會不會因為在法務部底下大概我們除了內政部的許志局法務部的調查局大概也都有這樣的一個可以可以我繼續追問那你現在"},{"start":9757.199,"end":9784.689,"text":"五合一的選舉你知道候選人有多少那你們現在到底配置在哪裡你是包括直轄市跟每個縣市的派出所還是每個分局都有你告訴我我們在刑事局全部在刑事局所以所有全國各派出所都要彙整到你刑事局請你刑事局來判定OKOK那我就請教我們是有一個通報機制啦好對但是"},{"start":9785.389,"end":9803.9,"text":"這一個部分你們有沒有考量到這個到選前特別像這種AI身為很多都會在什麼時候出現過去的選舉沒有AI的時候就已經有假造了你們都看過所以我現在就要確認你到最後一週七天"},{"start":9805.001,"end":9814.881,"text":"全國一天上來幾百件你怎麼辦我們會準備好了那你怎麼準備啊你具體的講給我們聽啊就是相關的設備跟人員我們部分會準備好"},{"start":9815.506,"end":9836.597,"text":"相關 你只有這一句話表示你們還沒準備好 因為我們沒請到你知道上一次8年前的2018的這個也是五合一的選舉它是公投綁大選 結果它是投票塞車你們這個更可怕 在選前整個的這種"},{"start":9837.978,"end":9861.274,"text":"AI身為這種假影音假訊息的這個整個影響整個的選舉結果這個會對台灣民主造成很大的問題那你們怎麼準備好你現在跟我講我們真的聽不到不是 我跟委員報告就是這個部分當然是今年我們一個工作很大的一個重點不管是假訊息或身為語音的所以全部在刑事局 訴發部有協助嗎沒有跨部會行政鍛鍊"},{"start":9873.916,"end":9890.573,"text":"我們有協助加速的部分你們協助刑事警察局嗎協助刑事警察局跟平台去下架快速一點你們是協助下架我現在光講到我們的報案如果"},{"start":9892.143,"end":9920.911,"text":"幾千件一次來因為全國你要知道我也不要假設啦不要假設所以你覺得不會有我想就是說包括佛和部內政部跟速發今年都會處理這一個假訊或語音會那大概第一時間當然有甚快就是這個發現是一個生活語音速發我們通報的話就平台月頭就馬上就會下架你現在是告訴我你的流程我都聽得很清楚"},{"start":9921.511,"end":9932.481,"text":"那我說的是一次來大塞車我們無法判定啊新竹縣搞不好就三十起新北新北來一次來個三百件你怎麼辦"},{"start":9937.106,"end":9952.458,"text":"那這個發生怎麼辦我就講8年前光是投票排隊沒有預設結果就發生了我們會準備有能力來處理沒關係那我們就請你們能不能提出對我們整個"},{"start":9954.939,"end":9981.966,"text":"這個進入選戰之後我們受理身為鑑識的整個標準作業程序包含你們碰到很大量資訊的時候你們可以在你們可以自己講嘛比如說一天假設有50件我不要講那麼多那50件你怎麼處理100件你怎麼處理好不好好我們希望能看到這個是好那接下來本席要請"},{"start":9984.771,"end":9989.956,"text":"我們 你們先回座 本席請中選會好不好 中選會主委好 徐委員好"},{"start":10000.782,"end":10015.038,"text":"诶 诸位 我们看到这个马上年底的公职人员选举到来选举开票页 你的电脑计票系统以及计票资讯查询网站"},{"start":10016.019,"end":10038.85,"text":"向來這個會是境外敵對勢力還有駭客發動認知作戰以及DDOS你大概知道分散式的阻斷服務攻擊的他們的最高目標價值目標所以你們在報告中有寫你們在今年的4月23號完成了計票系統的委外招標"},{"start":10039.83,"end":10066.351,"text":"而且配合庶發部資安院要在7月進行政府庶位任性巡航作業好來做資安的見解那本席請庶發部也上來請問這個庶位任性巡航做了沒你說7月要做現在7月中了我們請兩個單位到底做了沒這在報告裡講的對這個主要要藉助庶發部的這方面的專長對啊你們做了沒來庶發部請說做了沒"},{"start":10070.075,"end":10099.216,"text":"跟委員報告 我們回去瞭解一下 因為這個不是在市產署怎麼在報告裡寫了 結果這是中選會的報告寫喔中選會 做了沒 做了沒7月份啊正在準備什麼 正在準備天啊 我們請那個負責天啊 好啦 老師還沒做 沒關係 還沒做我請那個 我們負責這部分業務的好 來 來 很簡短的來說明一下 好不好"},{"start":10100.53,"end":10116.681,"text":"報告委員這個速發部治安院已經在7月就上週已經辦理這個數位的巡航作業就我們的這個地方公職人員選舉的電腦計票作業系統及這個支票資訊的系統已經做完成建檢了"},{"start":10117.601,"end":10145.341,"text":"已經完成了已經到我們會裡面來完成這個巡航的作業但是他們報告還沒提出來所以做完了那這樣本席想知道如果已經做了請問有沒有在整個這個系統中呢發掘出多少項漏洞有沒有他報告還沒出來還沒出來但是我們在跟治安院在接觸的過程中目前看起來是沒有什麼"},{"start":10146.061,"end":10165.286,"text":"太早沒有什麼問題沒有什麼問題這個聽起來還不錯好那沒關係那本席繼續問那如果我們發現中選會跟速發部之間的資安全則界限模糊那現在本席假設一個情況那如果在計票的"},{"start":10166.563,"end":10170.928,"text":"當天晚上整個被癱瘓的時候那請問這個時候誰來負責?是中選會負責還是訴發部負責?"},{"start":10179.249,"end":10189.22,"text":"整個計票網站被癱瘓或是你整個數據異常被推延整個延遲發生這種情況請問誰是誰的權責我在這裡請教報告委員這個計票的系統我們是採用這個封閉系統所以計票系統是不會有被癱瘓的這個情況"},{"start":10201.238,"end":10228.102,"text":"我們沒有公開的網站網站的話我們是有對外我剛剛是講計票網站計票網站是一個對外的查詢的資訊那如果有這個遭受攻擊的話其實我們還有多種管道我們有直播的作業不會讓計票的資訊的呈現產生中斷的所以你說你真實計票是內部內部的也不可能被攻擊嗎也不會啊"},{"start":10228.622,"end":10254.085,"text":"計票系統是封閉系統我們不會被攻擊封閉系統的意思嗎沒有等於你們報回來你們自己在內部確定嗎你確定計票系統是封閉的網路封閉的網路然後對外的才對外的那是你已經出來的才完成就對了"},{"start":10255.218,"end":10276.42,"text":"計票資訊的網站對外的呈現是有連網路的好那所以那一個網站如果被受攻擊有問題或是癱瘓最多就是暫停那這一個部分的權責是誰我們會做好的這個依照這個資訊安全的規矩"},{"start":10277.02,"end":10293.174,"text":"而且那個也會影響整個對外的整個那一天開票的情況對我們會做好最好的演練那如果萬一有這樣的情況的話其實我們有多方面的管道可以對外呈現這個計票的計票程序繼續在進行"},{"start":10296.472,"end":10318.718,"text":"你們有那個異地重建備援系統我們有備援系統然後異地重建我們有異地好OK那如果有的話那還不錯所以我們大家一起我們就是不希望我們的整個選舉是台灣民主的基石所以我們不希望有任何讓大家不信任的情況好"},{"start":10321.857,"end":10337.428,"text":"那再來本席再請教這個這個主委跟庶發布那我們這邊剛剛講到AI申委訊息通報那這個部分如果這個好OK"},{"start":10349.002,"end":10352.764,"text":"好沒關係那我想到這邊好了好謝謝好我們下一位請王宏威委員發言質詢"},{"start":10375.899,"end":10380.74,"text":"好謝謝主席我先請中選會的游主委游主委主委好之前您有提到就是有關於就是在九合一選舉裡面公投案的數量那今天呢我看到報告也特別提到就說如果多案的公投案"},{"start":10402.006,"end":10421.414,"text":"合併在一張公投選票上就是我們中選會的意見那主委你知道就是說以我們台北市六都來講今年年底的選舉我們每一位進入投票所的民眾他會領到三張票那如果是這個六都以外的話領到幾張票"},{"start":10423.752,"end":10451.246,"text":"看情況有的是三張票有的是五張票最多會拿到五張票那在2018年大家都記憶猶新的就說一邊開票一邊投票狀況當時是十個公投案因為我自己本身是台北市當時我也選台北市議員所以呢我們對當時當天的景象是記憶非常非常清晰的"},{"start":10452.09,"end":10475.047,"text":"不過當時後來我是覺得有件事情非常奇怪因為這個最嚴重的是發生在台北市其他縣市比較沒有這樣的問題那當然當時台北市撒卡多的狀況之下他的票數非常非常接近以至於影響最後市長的選舉所以"},{"start":10477.789,"end":10491.245,"text":"我同意第一個在九合一大選有些縣市甚至一個人會拿到五張票的狀況所以公投案的案數會不會影響整個選舉的流暢"},{"start":10494.289,"end":10521.763,"text":"那另外如果把它放在一張選票上到時候我們選務上會不會又出現其他的問題我覺得確實我們可以做全盤的考慮但是因為我也提醒主委在當年2018年台北市發生這樣的狀況但是其他縣市沒有那麼嚴重卻沒有那麼嚴重所以某一個程度也是當時台北市第一個那時候討論很多是不是投開票所不夠多"},{"start":10524.325,"end":10542.38,"text":"或者是你的這個圈票圈票的那個圈票數也太少所以當時我記得還有就是比如說你在學校他們臨時在趕快增加再拿其他的就增加一個圈票比如說你原來這邊只放了四個"},{"start":10543.181,"end":10566.339,"text":"如果你先放了六個六個圈票處你可以更多的地方你進去圈票那可能就會增加你的流暢度所以我覺得凡此種種我們當然希望選務工作能夠順暢這是非常重要的那當然因為我們立法院現在呢對於目前提出來六個公投案那當然我們也會去做討論大家來做協調好不好謝謝好 謝謝諸位那諸位可以請回我請我們內政部次長"},{"start":10572.864,"end":10575.165,"text":"還有法務部市長每一次選舉都會有不同的奧波我們每次都會其實都很難想像但是在過去幾次選舉裡面特別是在三年前的立委的選舉裡面我們台北市曾經發生"},{"start":10601.661,"end":10621.967,"text":"大規模剪掉約談我們的里長我們在各區的里長通通都被約談那里長到那邊跟我們講說他們幾乎是排隊 大家都坐在一排 有的人還站在那邊然後呢 沒收手機沒收手機里長麻煩了 里長因為平常要靠手機來聯繫啊 做選民服務"},{"start":10624.348,"end":10635.317,"text":"那一次事實上在台北市來說其實造成我們整個地方非常非常大的一個混亂但是選完了之後選完之後沒事那有些里長還被羈押當時還被羈押羈押之後呢"},{"start":10650.919,"end":10675.346,"text":"還被賠償因為都沒事嘛那我要講其實每一次選舉都非常非常的微妙而且呢非常敏感在選舉的時候大規模約談里長而選後什麼事情都沒有了過去也有但是在我們台北是第一次發生所以我在這邊為什麼希望要請次長上來今天檢證署上來還有檢調上來"},{"start":10677.97,"end":10688.34,"text":"我希望不要再做這樣的一個選舉操作那另外這兩天發生一個事情就是也是有一個里長這個組團到大陸去參訪他喊下架民進黨結果又用什麼用反滲透法來辦他"},{"start":10701.536,"end":10710.57,"text":"最後我們法院判他無罪因為說下架民進黨是言論自由這個只有被法院認證要下架民進黨"},{"start":10711.775,"end":10717.239,"text":"所以我要講的就是說越接近選舉尤其這次里長也要選那里長會不會去中國大陸參訪呢他確實情形非常多有的是地方的一個市政的參訪有些里長本身就身兼一些團體組織的負責人也好會員也好或者有些里長本身就是宮廟的主委"},{"start":10741.875,"end":10766.384,"text":"所以我希望這一次的學姐接近不要再隨隨便便的拿禮獎開刀拿完禮獎開刀之後造成整個選前的大家的恐慌你知道上一次的選舉甚至有些禮獎都不敢去參加任何的這個造勢活動他怕參加造勢活動然後呢又被整個抓進去"},{"start":10768.366,"end":10793.763,"text":"為什麼會造成這樣的寒蟬效應所以在這邊我要求我說因為內政部也是我們地方自治的一個主管機關我們里長該有的權益我希望內政部也能夠充分的去力挺里長他的一個他應有的權益尤其里長這一次自己本身也是參與選舉所以"},{"start":10797.045,"end":10822.899,"text":"我希望三年前我們台北市里長到中國大陸旅遊集體的被控反滲透法選後通通沒事明顯的選舉操作不能夠再發生好不好好這個是我做的一個提醒另外來因為署長還有檢調也在這邊另外一件事情我覺得也很重要"},{"start":10828.282,"end":10831.906,"text":"來看一下前一陣子發生了一個所謂的涉外人士到"},{"start":10839.925,"end":10866.847,"text":"這個應該是到台中就是石本明夫他是一個日本媒體人但是現在也是政論迷嘴那他被攻擊那當然這件事情就被以身為還有被認為是這個是一個是不是有一個跨境鎮壓或者是想要影響什麼事等等之類的"},{"start":10868.208,"end":10897.088,"text":"在這邊因為我們選舉越來越逼近我在這邊就直接向我們警政署內政部還有我們檢調能夠請命我們台北市長候選人沈伯陽先生因為他現在是被中國大陸通緝的對象那我們也很擔心在他參選的過程裡面我們希望他能夠得到"},{"start":10897.968,"end":10913.663,"text":"完全周詳的保護不要在選前尤其要選前24小時他如果對不明人士攻擊的話那我認為一定會對選舉引起軒然大波"},{"start":10915.202,"end":10944.422,"text":"我們要選前什麼事情都有可能發生所以在這邊 署長因為我們警政署還有各地方的警察局都要負責各候選人的安全問題我自己個人選舉很多次但是我只有曾經一次因為我們真的辦公室受到這種連我們助理都被有生命威脅我自己有過一次申請隨乎但我其他都沒有申請隨乎"},{"start":10945.542,"end":10965.068,"text":"可是呢我覺得有一些特定特殊的候選人我們警政單位檢調單位應該主動予以保護可不可以可以啊對對因為對於這些不管現在是參選或是未來的候選那我們都會去主動聯繫這個安委的問題"},{"start":10967.389,"end":10984.321,"text":"那有必要的話我們我們目前就可以展開保護了吧已經有了就是現在已經接觸像這個這個省委員要當現在目前的參選現在已經有派安全維護在做所以他目前已經有隨乎有隨乎了就是省委員他現在參選已經有有隨乎了ok非常好我們希望他能夠很安全那他這個他要到美國去參訪呢"},{"start":10996.601,"end":11022.143,"text":"那如果去參訪有必要也是可以去的有必要也可以申請我們希望他在整個的參選的過程裡面能夠完全安全無疑以免造成我們選舉的一些其他的困擾好不好我們其他的縣市長也是嘛所有的候選人都要負責他的安全好好好這樣非常好我想最後來"},{"start":11025.902,"end":11028.083,"text":"最後我們針對這個選舉選舉我剛講奧布實在太多我為大家稍微複習一下過去的這些選舉奧布真的是防不勝防"},{"start":11039.354,"end":11066.462,"text":"比較有名的2006年黃俊英先生然後參選高雄市長結果那個時候也自在選舉24小時以內事實上就是選舉日的前一個晚上而且已經完全的停止選舉了10點以後突然說黃俊英會選抓到了事後證明根本沒有事情"},{"start":11067.771,"end":11088.701,"text":"黃居英本人跟總部對這件事情完全不知情但是造成黃居英先生非常少的票數落敗黃居英先生也因此他也因此事實上抱憾而終是一件非常非常遺憾的事情好再來2014年11月當時也是縣市長選舉前民進黨立委"},{"start":11092.483,"end":11109.219,"text":"在选举前去指控县市长候选人去涉嫌诈领补助款然后他自己说如果不是事实的话他要吞取贯彻选举结束了选举结束之后也证明段宜康胡说八道"},{"start":11110.08,"end":11122.726,"text":"但是許貫瓊他沒有吞所以我就講說在選舉前什麼up都會有再來這個更是就是更近一點2019年2019年"},{"start":11126.007,"end":11150.222,"text":"在總統大選的時候當時來自於澳洲媒體的報導宣言大波說有一個自稱是中國間諜王立強他跑到澳洲去爆料說他在台灣他還有上線然後他來資助當時的總統候選人韓國瑜當時韓國瑜百口莫辯"},{"start":11155.481,"end":11172.248,"text":"整個的網路媒體天天來報導引用澳洲的媒體的報導結果事後證明王立強根本就是詐欺犯澳洲政府把他驅逐出境這都在選後了可是當時確實拙拙實實的去影響了當年的總統大選"},{"start":11177.23,"end":11203.788,"text":"我講的是我們現在在這邊都很強調所謂的境外勢力的影響這個案子不折不扣是一個境外勢力的一個影響但是他以所謂假借中國借血之名去栽贓污衊一個候選人讓候選人在選前百口莫辯他怎麼去解釋但是當時鋪天蓋地好 再來一個"},{"start":11207.63,"end":11236.258,"text":"更恶劣也都在选后了当时我们竟然有调查官涉嫌交缩伪证交缩说要侮辞当时的张立善县长候选人说他买票办得风风火火事后证明根本是调查官涉嫌交缩伪证但后来这个调查官还被提起公诉"},{"start":11237.871,"end":11248.999,"text":"所以我要講的這個只是其中我覺得蠻嚴重影響選舉然後讓當時的候選人完全沒有辦法去處理啊有這麼多的事件當然我也覺得有一些事件也許我們的政府單位可能在短短的時間內沒有辦法完完全全去避免可是"},{"start":11266.724,"end":11277.792,"text":"面對選舉要拜託大家如履薄冰而且真的一定要堅守行政中立不要被變成像這些人的幫兇合理嗎選都選完了 選完之後才還給人家清白像張立善還好他有繼續當選那像這個王立強案"},{"start":11291.384,"end":11317.357,"text":"這個根本就是經典啊當時可以誤指一個詐欺犯整個的媒體大肆的報導還來自國外澳洲媒體的報導所以我想我們今天在討論有關於選前不管是他的安全問題他的公平公正性的問題我都希望我們的相關單位能夠恪守行政中立也都能夠"},{"start":11318.557,"end":11345.385,"text":"希望用十足的力氣希望我們的選舉是這個能夠順利的那當然在我們立法院的部分我剛才也跟那個游盈隆主委講那整個我們的這個公投案的案量也好或我們的修法也好那也確實我們可以有更多的討論以助我們的這個選舉是公正公平公開然後我們的真正的民意得以伸張好不好謝謝"},{"start":11356.664,"end":11383.163,"text":"登記諮詢委員除不在場者外其餘均已諮詢完畢 詢答結束委員李柏毅 蘇巧慧 高清素梅徐欣盈 丁學中 傅坤祺 吳宗憲 蘇清泉所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面諮詢及何謂及答附部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 本次議程處理完畢現在上會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}