{"error":false,"id":["17606"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17606,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17606","日期":"2026-07-22","會議資料":null,"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-07-22T08:34:42+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-22T17:33:00+08:00","影片長度":"08:58:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685eb0212237ce0bb19447001677712d451b5b204f4a37948b9d2da7c55d388f3155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-07-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護處、經濟部、法務部、國防部及教育部就「致癌食用油成因、流向、稽查、資訊公開、風險評估、團體訴訟、求償機制，行政法律究責、未來具體改進措施及期程等事宜」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部及農業部就「近期發布《農藥殘留容許量標準》(如其中蘋果芬普寧藥殘標準從0.5ppm放寬至3.0ppm等)之各項依據及修正標準」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n討論事項\n一、審查行政院函送財團法人國家衛生研究院115年度工作計畫及收支預算案。\n二、審查衛生福利部函送財團法人醫院評鑑暨醫療品質策進會等9家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n【以上專題報告及預算案綜合詢答；預算案，僅詢答，115年7月30日下午5時截止收案】\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n三、繼續審查及審查「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」等73案。\n(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)繼續審查委員何欣純等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)繼續審查委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n(六十四)審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條、第五十三條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六十五)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六十六)審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六十七)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六十八)審查委員賴士葆等25人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六十九)審查委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「國民年金法第三十九條、第三十九條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七十)審查委員涂權吉等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七十一)審查委員林思銘等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第三十一條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七十二)審查國民黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第三十九條、第三十九條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七十三)審查委員游顥等16人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:34:42 - 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38.96,"text":"現在進行上午的議程"},{"start":1938.96,"end":1944.96,"text":"專題報告及討論事項第一、第二案採綜合詢討方式進行"},{"start":1947.32,"end":1950.32,"text":"接著再介紹在場官員"},{"start":1951.08,"end":1952.08,"text":"李銳全召委"},{"start":1955.49,"end":1956.49,"text":"歡迎委員"},{"start":1957.95,"end":1958.95,"text":"陳寅委員"},{"start":1960.23,"end":1961.23,"text":"王正旭委員"},{"start":1962.93,"end":1963.93,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":1965.36,"end":1966.36,"text":"江瑞璇委員"},{"start":1969.93,"end":1970.93,"text":"施欽全委員"},{"start":1972.53,"end":1973.53,"text":"廖偉祥委員"},{"start":1974.47,"end":1975.47,"text":"陳金輝委員"},{"start":1976.82,"end":1977.82,"text":"王立民委員"},{"start":1979.23,"end":1980.23,"text":"圖權級委員"},{"start":1981.81,"end":1983.81,"text":"接下來介紹的歷習官員"},{"start":1983.77,"end":1985.77,"text":"衛生福利部部長石成良"},{"start":1987.06,"end":1989.06,"text":"食藥署署長江志剛"},{"start":1990.35,"end":1992.35,"text":"會計處署長張玉蓁"},{"start":1993.74,"end":1995.74,"text":"國務院院長司徒惠康"},{"start":1998.27,"end":2002.27,"text":"財團法人醫療品質測驚會董事長詹尚淳"},{"start":2005.89,"end":2009.89,"text":"期望捐贈已止登錄及片原自主推廣中心董事長李明哲"},{"start":2012.53,"end":2017.53,"text":"財團法人周濟勳醫學研究發展基金會執行秘書鄭彥甫"},{"start":2019.45,"end":2020.45,"text":"財團法人"},{"start":2021.18,"end":2022.18,"text":"醫藥品"},{"start":2022.18,"end":2025.18,"text":"查驗中心副執行長林守玉"},{"start":2027.6,"end":2028.6,"text":"財團法人"},{"start":2028.6,"end":2030.6,"text":"要害就基金會執行長陳文仁"},{"start":2031.76,"end":2032.76,"text":"財團法人"},{"start":2034.53,"end":2037.53,"text":"醫療財團法人病理發展基金會執行長顧文輝"},{"start":2039.86,"end":2041.86,"text":"財團法人正在基金會督導陳崇良"},{"start":2044.35,"end":2048.35,"text":"財團法人會證醫療就基金會執行秘書洪志誠"},{"start":2050.02,"end":2054.02,"text":"財團法人奉女權益促進發展基金會副執行長黃祥林"},{"start":2054.65,"end":2055.65,"text":"黃祥"},{"start":2057.57,"end":2060.57,"text":"行政院消費者保護處處長鍾瑞蘭"},{"start":2062.38,"end":2064.38,"text":"食品安全辦公室責任許甫"},{"start":2066.68,"end":2067.68,"text":"財團法人"},{"start":2067.96,"end":2069.96,"text":"經濟部發展署署長蘇文林"},{"start":2072.21,"end":2075.21,"text":"傳言發展署副署長劉氏凡"},{"start":2077.95,"end":2080.95,"text":"中小級新創企業署署長黃新怡"},{"start":2083.1,"end":2085.1,"text":"國營事業管理師專門委員缺萬斤"},{"start":2087.64,"end":2089.64,"text":"台壇股東宇相關司副總經理蔡東霖"},{"start":2091.72,"end":2093.72,"text":"法務部檢察師長張曉雯"},{"start":2095.52,"end":2097.52,"text":"所任檢察官蔡延真"},{"start":2100.06,"end":2102.06,"text":"國防部後勤參謀次長"},{"start":2103.01,"end":2105.01,"text":"處長賀志豪"},{"start":2107.08,"end":2109.08,"text":"政治作戰局處長邱華源"},{"start":2112.46,"end":2116.46,"text":"入軍後止部副使公運中心主任江振賢"},{"start":2118.3,"end":2120.3,"text":"教育部學情教育署副署長戴淑芬"},{"start":2122.43,"end":2124.43,"text":"徵規師專委呂宏林"},{"start":2126.85,"end":2128.85,"text":"農業部副署長陳鴻博"},{"start":2130.94,"end":2132.94,"text":"農事署處長林水淵"},{"start":2135.01,"end":2137.01,"text":"農業署副署長王文良"},{"start":2138.57,"end":2140.57,"text":"主席總處基金預算處科長劉亞肥"},{"start":2146.24,"end":2151.24,"text":"接下來請衛生福利部時部長就專題報告及討論事項一二案"},{"start":2151.24,"end":2152.24,"text":"並按說明"},{"start":2159.97,"end":2161.97,"text":"主席跟各位委員"},{"start":2161.97,"end":2168.97,"text":"以下那麼衛福部就委員會所關心的一二案來做一個整體的說明"},{"start":2168.97,"end":2175.97,"text":"第一案是有關於本次中聯大豆沙拉油的本扁皮超標事件"},{"start":2175.97,"end":2180.97,"text":"目前的處理進度跟精進的措施"},{"start":2180.97,"end":2188.97,"text":"那麼這一次的中聯大豆油事件我們秉持的就是風險及時的掌握"},{"start":2188.97,"end":2191.97,"text":"那麼從源頭直接控管"},{"start":2191.97,"end":2193.97,"text":"然後下游追查回收"},{"start":2193.97,"end":2197.97,"text":"那麼來進行依法行政"},{"start":2197.97,"end":2199.97,"text":"那麼資訊公開透明"},{"start":2199.97,"end":2204.97,"text":"那麼全部的辦理的事件進度我們做以下的說明"},{"start":2204.97,"end":2205.97,"text":"第一個呢"},{"start":2205.97,"end":2208.97,"text":"在事件成因的部分"},{"start":2208.97,"end":2211.97,"text":"那麼到目前的調查呈現"},{"start":2211.97,"end":2215.97,"text":"中聯油脂未能夠有效的管控它的原料"},{"start":2215.97,"end":2217.97,"text":"那麼以及在製程的部分"},{"start":2217.97,"end":2222.97,"text":"那麼有多部沒有辦法有效的去監控這個本扁皮"},{"start":2222.97,"end":2230.97,"text":"那麼也沒有積極的採取可去除這個精煉的一個程序"},{"start":2230.97,"end":2237.97,"text":"那麼以致有多批到目前4到6月一共有驗出有7批那麼超標的情形"},{"start":2237.97,"end":2239.97,"text":"那麼就其根本原因"},{"start":2239.97,"end":2242.97,"text":"那麼也跟它的進口的黃豆"},{"start":2242.97,"end":2244.97,"text":"那麼它的品質不良"},{"start":2244.97,"end":2247.97,"text":"那麼有相當的關聯性"},{"start":2247.97,"end":2249.97,"text":"那麼其次呢"},{"start":2249.97,"end":2251.97,"text":"在流向的"},{"start":2253.35,"end":2255.35,"text":"控制跟稽查的處理"},{"start":2255.35,"end":2261.35,"text":"那麼我們採取這個風險動態風險調控的方式"},{"start":2261.35,"end":2268.35,"text":"那麼在7月9號宣布了4到6月所有生產的30批的油品"},{"start":2268.35,"end":2271.35,"text":"全面的預防性下架"},{"start":2271.35,"end":2273.35,"text":"那麼其中呢有27批"},{"start":2273.35,"end":2275.35,"text":"共2.8萬公噸"},{"start":2275.35,"end":2279.35,"text":"那麼出貨到福茂福壽泰山等下游業者"},{"start":2279.35,"end":2281.35,"text":"那麼也都完成"},{"start":2281.35,"end":2284.35,"text":"那麼在7月10號中午12時"},{"start":2284.35,"end":2287.35,"text":"以前完成了預防性下架"},{"start":2287.35,"end":2291.35,"text":"那麼之後呢我們雖然有陸續接獲"},{"start":2291.35,"end":2293.35,"text":"或者是檢驗出不合格的商品"},{"start":2293.35,"end":2298.35,"text":"但是都已經在預防性下架的品項範圍內"},{"start":2298.35,"end":2302.35,"text":"那到目前為止呢對於不合格的品項"},{"start":2302.35,"end":2306.35,"text":"那麼回收了2771.2公噸"},{"start":2306.35,"end":2310.35,"text":"預防性下架的達5314.9公噸"},{"start":2312.01,"end":2316.01,"text":"那麼這個第三呢在這個法律究責的部分"},{"start":2316.01,"end":2319.01,"text":"那麼跟消費者的權益保障"},{"start":2319.01,"end":2321.01,"text":"到7月17號"},{"start":2321.01,"end":2325.01,"text":"那麼中聯因為違反了食安法的相關規定"},{"start":2325.01,"end":2330.01,"text":"累計裁罰金額達1億7120萬元"},{"start":2330.01,"end":2335.01,"text":"那麼相關的業者也都由地方衛生主管機關依法裁罰"},{"start":2335.01,"end":2339.01,"text":"同時本案已經移送檢方偵辦"},{"start":2339.01,"end":2342.01,"text":"來追究其刑事責任"},{"start":2342.01,"end":2346.01,"text":"那麼本部呢也會協同行政院的消保會"},{"start":2346.01,"end":2351.01,"text":"來協助消費消保團體來提起團體的訴訟"},{"start":2351.01,"end":2354.01,"text":"那麼要求業者妥善的辦理退貨"},{"start":2354.01,"end":2357.01,"text":"跟損害的賠償保障消費者的權益"},{"start":2357.01,"end":2360.01,"text":"那麼最後呢在制度改革的部分"},{"start":2360.01,"end":2364.01,"text":"那麼我們將推動這個五項的強化"},{"start":2364.01,"end":2366.01,"text":"跟這個食安法的修法"},{"start":2366.01,"end":2369.01,"text":"那麼食安法的修法目前擬定"},{"start":2369.01,"end":2371.01,"text":"已完成草案的擬定"},{"start":2371.01,"end":2373.01,"text":"跟行政院的初步審查"},{"start":2373.01,"end":2376.01,"text":"修法重點呢有十個重點"},{"start":2376.3,"end":2381.3,"text":"第一呢是增訂高風險的食品業者的自主檢驗頻率"},{"start":2381.3,"end":2385.3,"text":"那麼第二是增訂特定的食品業者"},{"start":2385.3,"end":2387.3,"text":"要自設實驗室"},{"start":2387.3,"end":2391.3,"text":"並且需要取得中央主管機關的認證"},{"start":2391.3,"end":2397.3,"text":"那麼第三呢是增訂了這個實驗室的管理跟通報的義務"},{"start":2397.3,"end":2401.3,"text":"那麼第四是增訂第三方驗證機構"},{"start":2401.3,"end":2406.3,"text":"抽樣、實地機核以及通報的機制"},{"start":2406.3,"end":2410.3,"text":"第五呢增訂地方主管機關"},{"start":2410.3,"end":2414.3,"text":"那麼因依風險導向的查核機制"},{"start":2414.3,"end":2420.3,"text":"那麼對業者要實施這個定期不定期的查核跟抽驗"},{"start":2420.3,"end":2425.3,"text":"那麼第六是要強化業者異常通報的義務"},{"start":2425.3,"end":2432.3,"text":"並且提高營利、延遲或不實通報的最高罰鍰是三千萬"},{"start":2432.3,"end":2438.3,"text":"第七擴大高風險業者的追蹤追溯機制"},{"start":2438.3,"end":2444.3,"text":"那麼第八那麼增訂罰鍰執行當中的保全機制"},{"start":2444.3,"end":2451.3,"text":"那麼避免受處分人營利、轉移財產或者是逃避執行"},{"start":2451.3,"end":2458.3,"text":"那麼第九也增訂了在對於重大食安事件中央的成立指揮中心"},{"start":2458.3,"end":2464.3,"text":"來統籌資源的整合調度跟重大食安事件的處理"},{"start":2464.3,"end":2472.3,"text":"第十那麼明定這個違規的案件的下架還有預防性下架"},{"start":2472.3,"end":2475.3,"text":"以及重新上架的原則"},{"start":2475.3,"end":2482.3,"text":"那麼目前將在行政院這個審查完成之後來送交大院"},{"start":2482.3,"end":2486.3,"text":"那麼屆時也請各位委員來予以支持"},{"start":2486.3,"end":2492.3,"text":"那麼本部會持續的精進相關的制度的修正"},{"start":2492.3,"end":2495.3,"text":"完善整個食品安全的管理制度"},{"start":2495.3,"end":2499.3,"text":"來確保國人的食品安全跟消費者權益"},{"start":2499.3,"end":2506.3,"text":"那麼有關第二案是近期在今年的4月份所公告的"},{"start":2506.3,"end":2511.3,"text":"農藥殘留容許量標準的修正"},{"start":2511.3,"end":2518.3,"text":"那麼本案是依據食品安全衛生管理法第15條第二項的規定"},{"start":2518.3,"end":2524.3,"text":"那麼會商的農政機關共同訂立農藥殘留容許量"},{"start":2524.3,"end":2526.3,"text":"也就是MIL的標準"},{"start":2526.27,"end":2531.27,"text":"那麼該標準的訂定的考量主要有兩個"},{"start":2531.27,"end":2536.27,"text":"一個是會配合前端那麼由農業部所核准"},{"start":2536.27,"end":2541.27,"text":"國內所使用的這個農藥的使用情形跟相關規範"},{"start":2541.27,"end":2550.27,"text":"那麼第二個考量是因應了在這個進口農產品的需求所提出的申請"},{"start":2550.99,"end":2556.99,"text":"那麼本案是在115年的1月間進行預告"},{"start":2556.99,"end":2560.99,"text":"那麼依規定預告60日那麼在預告期間"},{"start":2560.99,"end":2565.99,"text":"那麼並未收到其他的意見"},{"start":2565.99,"end":2569.99,"text":"因此在4月21號正式公告"},{"start":2569.99,"end":2576.99,"text":"共修訂了38種農藥174項殘留容許量的標準"},{"start":2576.99,"end":2587.99,"text":"其中有8種農藥54項是這個業者以及這個國外進口需要的產品的農藥殘留標準的修訂案"},{"start":2587.99,"end":2595.99,"text":"那麼另外有30種農藥120項為農業部受理業者申請的農藥登記"},{"start":2595.99,"end":2603.99,"text":"那麼因應國內農作物這個病蟲害防治及用藥需求那麼所修訂"},{"start":2603.99,"end":2608.99,"text":"那麼另外也刪除了1種農藥跟12項的殘留容許量"},{"start":2608.99,"end":2621.99,"text":"那我國的農藥的殘留標準容許量的評估那麼是依據農藥的毒理還有它的殘留消退試驗的相關的資料"},{"start":2621.99,"end":2628.99,"text":"同時也參酌了國際間的標準以及長期短期設施風險的評估"},{"start":2649.57,"end":2654.57,"text":"這個是依據在111年間已經有提出的申請"},{"start":2654.57,"end":2658.57,"text":"歷經了3年的評估審查"},{"start":2658.57,"end":2666.57,"text":"基於這個所提送的符合審查需求的科學資料以及國際的評估原則跟工具評估"},{"start":2666.57,"end":2675.57,"text":"並且進行了長短期設施風險評估之後那麼所訂出它的安全範圍"},{"start":2675.57,"end":2679.57,"text":"確認風險可接受之後才發布這個標準"},{"start":2679.57,"end":2687.57,"text":"那麼過去並沒有單獨所列項主要是列在其他梨果類的標準"},{"start":2687.57,"end":2695.57,"text":"所以這一次是把蘋果從過去的梨果類的這個大類那麼毒力列項"},{"start":2695.57,"end":2701.57,"text":"那麼依據的蘋果在栽種期間的田間殘留試驗數據"},{"start":2701.57,"end":2709.57,"text":"那麼訂定符合農民實際用藥情形的蘋果單獨列項的個別標準3ppm"},{"start":2709.57,"end":2711.57,"text":"那麼並非放寬"},{"start":2711.57,"end":2715.57,"text":"那麼本次修正的農藥的殘留容許量標準"},{"start":2715.57,"end":2724.57,"text":"那麼在這個提到這個食品衛生安全及營養製疫會審查"},{"start":2724.57,"end":2732.57,"text":"也在經過預告期間未接獲這個任何對分補您的殘留容許量的這個評論意見"},{"start":2732.57,"end":2736.57,"text":"所以才會在4月21日正式的發布"},{"start":2736.57,"end":2744.57,"text":"那麼相關的會議紀錄也都公告在食藥署的網站來供大眾這個參閱"},{"start":2744.57,"end":2746.57,"text":"那麼以上一二案的部分"},{"start":2746.57,"end":2749.57,"text":"那麼先做以上的報告"},{"start":2749.57,"end":2751.57,"text":"那麼不論是在油品的處理"},{"start":2751.57,"end":2756.57,"text":"或者是在訂定農藥的殘留容許量的標準"},{"start":2756.57,"end":2760.57,"text":"那麼本部都是以科學為基礎"},{"start":2760.57,"end":2763.57,"text":"那麼透過國內專業的審查"},{"start":2763.57,"end":2769.57,"text":"參酌了國際的各項訂定的標準來做整體的衡量"},{"start":2769.57,"end":2773.57,"text":"那麼以維護國人健康為首要目標"},{"start":2773.57,"end":2778.57,"text":"嚴格把關食品中的各項安全殘餘量的訂定"},{"start":2778.57,"end":2780.57,"text":"訂定標準"},{"start":2780.57,"end":2783.57,"text":"那麼再請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2783.57,"end":2784.57,"text":"那麼以上報告"},{"start":2785.1,"end":2786.1,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":2809.99,"end":2810.99,"text":"現在"},{"start":2810.99,"end":2814.99,"text":"現在提案提變更進入議程"},{"start":2814.99,"end":2816.99,"text":"先就臨時提案優先處理"},{"start":2817.92,"end":2819.92,"text":"請問大家有沒有意義"},{"start":2821.62,"end":2824.62,"text":"有意就舉手表決"},{"start":2827.08,"end":2828.08,"text":"請"},{"start":2833.68,"end":2841.68,"text":"今天有巡達"},{"start":2847.37,"end":2849.37,"text":"沒關係我們現在"},{"start":2849.37,"end":2851.37,"text":"我們現在進行表決"},{"start":2851.37,"end":2853.37,"text":"採用舉手表決"},{"start":2853.37,"end":2856.37,"text":"表決前先請在場出席委員人數"},{"start":2858.72,"end":2860.72,"text":"繼續"},{"start":2860.72,"end":2862.72,"text":"繼續"},{"start":2862.72,"end":2864.72,"text":"繼續"},{"start":2864.72,"end":2866.72,"text":"直接表決"},{"start":2867.45,"end":2869.45,"text":"先休息個五分鐘"},{"start":2869.45,"end":2871.45,"text":"直接表決"},{"start":2871.45,"end":2873.45,"text":"我們兩位已經看過了"},{"start":2873.45,"end":2874.45,"text":"表演開始"},{"start":2874.45,"end":2876.45,"text":"沒關係 趕快重新看"},{"start":2876.45,"end":2878.45,"text":"表決"},{"start":2878.45,"end":2880.45,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":2880.45,"end":2882.45,"text":"你現在在場出席委員"},{"start":2883.72,"end":2885.72,"text":"好"},{"start":2892.64,"end":2894.64,"text":"所有人不還主席"},{"start":2896.29,"end":2898.29,"text":"來 贊成者請舉手"},{"start":2900.1,"end":2901.1,"text":"現在是"},{"start":2903.62,"end":2904.62,"text":"先休息"},{"start":2904.62,"end":2905.62,"text":"先表決"},{"start":2905.62,"end":2906.62,"text":"來"},{"start":2906.62,"end":2907.62,"text":"先休息"},{"start":2907.62,"end":2909.62,"text":"我們也看表決"},{"start":2910.95,"end":2911.95,"text":"先休息"},{"start":2911.95,"end":2913.95,"text":"我們也看表決"},{"start":2914.82,"end":2917.82,"text":"主席 請要尊重我們"},{"start":2917.82,"end":2920.82,"text":"現在是表決休息的"},{"start":2920.82,"end":2921.82,"text":"是否"},{"start":2923.54,"end":2924.54,"text":"好"},{"start":2924.94,"end":2926.94,"text":"請給人數來進行表決"},{"start":2926.94,"end":2927.94,"text":"採用舉手表決"},{"start":2927.94,"end":2929.94,"text":"現在是採決那個"},{"start":2930.98,"end":2933.98,"text":"是否休息的這個決定 好吧"},{"start":2933.98,"end":2935.98,"text":"在場出席委員12人不還主席"},{"start":2935.98,"end":2938.98,"text":"現在開始表決11人"},{"start":2939.55,"end":2940.55,"text":"對"},{"start":2941.53,"end":2942.53,"text":"我們是要比案"},{"start":2942.53,"end":2944.53,"text":"不是用這個表決來"},{"start":2946.57,"end":2948.57,"text":"來 結束了而已"},{"start":2948.57,"end":2950.57,"text":"馬上要表決"},{"start":2950.57,"end":2951.57,"text":"合理嗎"},{"start":2951.57,"end":2953.57,"text":"好"},{"start":2953.57,"end":2955.57,"text":"尊重委員的權益好嗎"},{"start":2955.57,"end":2957.57,"text":"連經委員也是招委員"},{"start":2960.26,"end":2962.26,"text":"為什麼還要用表決"},{"start":2963.85,"end":2964.85,"text":"好"},{"start":2969.04,"end":2970.04,"text":"好"},{"start":2971.11,"end":2972.11,"text":"現在是"},{"start":2972.6,"end":2974.6,"text":"贊成休息的去舉手"},{"start":2978.07,"end":2980.07,"text":"不認為應該用表決來"},{"start":2980.07,"end":2981.07,"text":"做什麼休不休息"},{"start":2983.25,"end":2985.25,"text":"不贊成休息的請舉手"},{"start":2985.25,"end":2986.25,"text":"OK"},{"start":2991.43,"end":2992.43,"text":"好"},{"start":2994.28,"end":2996.28,"text":"贊成休息的"},{"start":2996.28,"end":2998.28,"text":"贊成多數我們就不休息"},{"start":2998.28,"end":3000.28,"text":"現在我們進行表決"},{"start":3000.28,"end":3001.28,"text":"採用舉手表決"},{"start":3003.19,"end":3004.19,"text":"表決前線清點"},{"start":3004.19,"end":3006.19,"text":"在場出席人數"},{"start":3006.19,"end":3007.19,"text":"在場出席人數"},{"start":3012.88,"end":3014.88,"text":"在場出席人11人"},{"start":3015.41,"end":3016.41,"text":"贊成就去舉手"},{"start":3018.14,"end":3019.14,"text":"出席人是誰"},{"start":3023.79,"end":3024.79,"text":"區會贊成"},{"start":3026.6,"end":3027.6,"text":"反對的請舉手"},{"start":3031.86,"end":3032.86,"text":"好 表決結果"},{"start":3032.86,"end":3033.86,"text":"在場出席人11人"},{"start":3033.86,"end":3034.86,"text":"不含主席"},{"start":3034.86,"end":3035.86,"text":"贊成者7人"},{"start":3035.86,"end":3036.86,"text":"反對者4人"},{"start":3038.53,"end":3039.53,"text":"5人"},{"start":3039.53,"end":3040.53,"text":"贊成者多數通過"},{"start":3042.85,"end":3043.85,"text":"現在除了臨時敵案"},{"start":3045.18,"end":3047.18,"text":"請宣讀第一案"},{"start":3051.25,"end":3056.25,"text":"衛生福利部4月21日發布農藥殘留容許量標準修正草案"},{"start":3056.25,"end":3058.25,"text":"其中蘋果分鋪您"},{"start":3058.93,"end":3060.93,"text":"農藥殘留標準飆升6倍"},{"start":3060.93,"end":3063.93,"text":"從0.5ppm放寬至3.0ppm"},{"start":3063.93,"end":3065.93,"text":"高於日本2.0ppm"},{"start":3065.93,"end":3068.93,"text":"為歐盟0.01ppm的300倍"},{"start":3068.93,"end":3070.93,"text":"原此要求衛生福利部"},{"start":3070.93,"end":3071.93,"text":"於一週內"},{"start":3071.93,"end":3074.93,"text":"公開蘋果分鋪您農藥殘留標準"},{"start":3074.93,"end":3077.93,"text":"提高容許量至6倍的完整科學理由"},{"start":3077.93,"end":3080.93,"text":"說明醫學、毒理學及法規依據"},{"start":3080.93,"end":3083.93,"text":"二 公布各年齡層之完整風險評估報告"},{"start":3083.93,"end":3086.93,"text":"三 公開專家會議記錄及利益迴避資訊"},{"start":3086.93,"end":3088.93,"text":"讓社會瞭解決策過程"},{"start":3088.93,"end":3092.93,"text":"四 建立重大農藥最大殘留容許量"},{"start":3093.74,"end":3095.74,"text":"五 調整公眾參與制度"},{"start":3095.74,"end":3097.74,"text":"於涉及大幅放寬容許量時"},{"start":3097.74,"end":3100.74,"text":"應辦理公聽會公開說明會及風險溝通"},{"start":3100.74,"end":3103.74,"text":"而非僅以行政公告方式辦理"},{"start":3103.74,"end":3105.74,"text":"五 重新檢討加嚴"},{"start":3105.74,"end":3109.74,"text":"一五年4月21日公告之農藥殘留容許量標準"},{"start":3109.74,"end":3111.74,"text":"第三條附表一"},{"start":3112.12,"end":3115.12,"text":"衛生福利部未完成上述要求前主管機關"},{"start":3115.12,"end":3120.12,"text":"因暫緩正式公告時事分布明知殘留性標準"},{"start":3120.12,"end":3127.12,"text":"提案委員盧憲一、王玉敏、蘇清泉、圖全及陳金輝、廖偉翔、邱振軍、邱慧如"},{"start":3127.53,"end":3128.53,"text":"提案二"},{"start":3128.53,"end":3132.53,"text":"有鑒於中聯有止致癌毒油奇臺風暴"},{"start":3132.53,"end":3134.53,"text":"有毒致癌油品全臺流竄"},{"start":3134.53,"end":3138.53,"text":"甚至其中一批消網、南韓、檢體無留存"},{"start":3138.53,"end":3143.53,"text":"衛生福利部已通報下游並告知韓方已衍生出國際風波"},{"start":3143.53,"end":3148.53,"text":"此事件曝露出政府所謂的層層食安把關根本漏洞百出"},{"start":3148.53,"end":3151.53,"text":"日前衛生福利部審評要務管理署"},{"start":3151.53,"end":3154.53,"text":"竟公布中聯有止四至六月油品"},{"start":3154.53,"end":3158.53,"text":"其中十九批油品即日起可重新上架"},{"start":3158.53,"end":3161.53,"text":"對此地方首長紛紛表達沒有真相沒有上架"},{"start":3161.53,"end":3166.53,"text":"民國一零三年爆發頂新低價列直油混入食用油事件"},{"start":3166.53,"end":3170.53,"text":"在野民進黨高喊只要有一滴問題油"},{"start":3170.53,"end":3175.53,"text":"不管第幾層下油不管風險多低全部都要預防性下架全面公開"},{"start":3175.53,"end":3180.53,"text":"時任立委的蔡其昌陳其邁當年痛批行政院長江一樺"},{"start":3180.53,"end":3184.53,"text":"政院未先採取預防性下架反而包批大廠"},{"start":3184.53,"end":3189.53,"text":"江奎獨執該自我下架負責席臺南市長賴清德面對"},{"start":3189.53,"end":3193.53,"text":"重大油品食安風暴時提出食安及國安的強烈訴求"},{"start":3193.53,"end":3198.53,"text":"要求中央政府必須為此負責並要求民眾對問題產品做到不滿"},{"start":3199.51,"end":3203.51,"text":"不吃不用賴市長如今已貴為總統今再次發生重大"},{"start":3203.51,"end":3207.51,"text":"食安事件雖對獨有風暴表明該就責就就責絕不寬貸"},{"start":3209.27,"end":3213.27,"text":"行政院長卓榮泰一表達希望儘快向國人報告事件全貌"},{"start":3213.27,"end":3217.27,"text":"為民情激憤強烈要求賴州政府比照當年"},{"start":3217.27,"end":3221.27,"text":"頂新油事件一致標準處理原此要見請"},{"start":3221.27,"end":3227.27,"text":"院會做成決議針對中聯油脂致癌毒油席臺連環爆事件"},{"start":3227.27,"end":3231.27,"text":"國人迄今看不到真相政府企圖開牌並欲甩鍋地方"},{"start":3231.27,"end":3235.27,"text":"政府原要求賴州政府比照103年頂新油事件標準"},{"start":3235.27,"end":3239.27,"text":"緊述處理並全面查明流向與真相前不得讓"},{"start":3239.27,"end":3243.27,"text":"問題有品重新上架壓明新並緊述建立退貨及補償機制"},{"start":3245.46,"end":3249.46,"text":"提案委員盧憲一王玉敏蘇清泉圖權及陳金輝廖偉祥"},{"start":3249.46,"end":3251.46,"text":"邱振軍邱慧如宣讀完畢"},{"start":3254.93,"end":3255.43,"text":"OK"},{"start":3256.43,"end":3256.93,"text":"請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請"},{"start":3262.41,"end":3262.91,"text":"啊"},{"start":3263.17,"end":3265.17,"text":"好 請國務部長"},{"start":3270.37,"end":3272.37,"text":"跟委員會說明"},{"start":3272.37,"end":3276.37,"text":"那麼有關這個提案裡面提到"},{"start":3276.37,"end":3282.37,"text":"我們目前已經完成所有的預防性下架的油品的檢驗"},{"start":3282.37,"end":3284.37,"text":"也就是四到六月間呢"},{"start":3284.37,"end":3288.37,"text":"那麼中聯一共製造了30批的油品"},{"start":3288.37,"end":3292.37,"text":"那中間我們有7批驗出是超標不合格"},{"start":3292.37,"end":3296.37,"text":"那麼1批另外有3批呢"},{"start":3296.37,"end":3300.37,"text":"目前呢還是在這個油廠裡面沒有出貨"},{"start":3300.37,"end":3304.37,"text":"那麼所以我們一共有19批"},{"start":3305.47,"end":3310.47,"text":"那麼已經都通過我們的足皮檢驗的查驗結果"},{"start":3310.47,"end":3313.47,"text":"所以我們現在所宣布的重新下架"},{"start":3313.47,"end":3315.47,"text":"都是安全的油品"},{"start":3315.47,"end":3319.47,"text":"通過了我們的足皮檢驗的結果"},{"start":3319.47,"end":3321.47,"text":"那麼並不是問題油品"},{"start":3321.47,"end":3325.47,"text":"所以要再一次的跟所有的委員說明"},{"start":3325.47,"end":3327.47,"text":"所以這個以"},{"start":3327.53,"end":3332.53,"text":"這個食安民眾的這個食安優先"},{"start":3332.53,"end":3338.53,"text":"那麼讓這個合格的產品經過檢驗之後"},{"start":3338.53,"end":3339.53,"text":"那麼安全的上架"},{"start":3339.53,"end":3343.53,"text":"所以跟委員會所提到的那麼是一致的"},{"start":3343.53,"end":3346.53,"text":"我們不會讓問題油品上架"},{"start":3346.53,"end":3350.53,"text":"所以這個請各位委員放心"},{"start":3350.53,"end":3355.53,"text":"那麼至於這個農藥的殘留容許量"},{"start":3355.53,"end":3359.53,"text":"那麼就如同我剛剛在口頭報告裡面也提到"},{"start":3359.53,"end":3364.53,"text":"那麼這個是都經過了相當長的一段時間的評估"},{"start":3364.53,"end":3369.53,"text":"那麼也踐行了這個法規的預告程序"},{"start":3369.53,"end":3372.53,"text":"也是按照標準60天的預告"},{"start":3372.53,"end":3374.53,"text":"那麼在預告期間"},{"start":3374.53,"end":3377.53,"text":"那麼也沒有其他的這個意見"},{"start":3377.53,"end":3382.53,"text":"那麼當然在今天的提案裡面要求我們去公開"},{"start":3382.53,"end":3388.53,"text":"這個蘋果的分布你農藥的殘留標準的完整科學理由"},{"start":3388.53,"end":3389.53,"text":"包含"},{"start":3390.84,"end":3392.84,"text":"醫學、毒理學、法規依據"},{"start":3392.84,"end":3395.84,"text":"這個我們都會按照這樣來辦"},{"start":3395.84,"end":3398.84,"text":"因為本來就是如此來進行的"},{"start":3398.84,"end":3403.84,"text":"那麼公開這個公布各年齡層的完整風險評估報告"},{"start":3403.84,"end":3406.84,"text":"這個我們也可以遵照來辦理"},{"start":3406.84,"end":3409.84,"text":"至於專家會議紀錄跟利益迴避資訊"},{"start":3409.84,"end":3413.84,"text":"我們會議紀錄都已經公開在食藥署的網站當中"},{"start":3415.58,"end":3416.58,"text":"至於呢?"},{"start":3418.13,"end":3419.13,"text":"法規來"},{"start":3419.87,"end":3422.87,"text":"調整這個公眾的參與制度"},{"start":3422.87,"end":3426.87,"text":"那麼辦理這個公聽會公開說明跟風險溝通"},{"start":3426.87,"end":3431.87,"text":"這個我們可以來未來再進行相關的法規標準調整的時候"},{"start":3431.87,"end":3433.87,"text":"那麼來辦理"},{"start":3433.87,"end":3434.87,"text":"至於說"},{"start":3438.45,"end":3439.45,"text":"重新去"},{"start":3440.34,"end":3441.34,"text":"檢討這個"},{"start":3442.45,"end":3443.45,"text":"公告的"},{"start":3447.59,"end":3449.59,"text":"重新公告的這個"},{"start":3450.18,"end":3452.18,"text":"這個龍六龍"},{"start":3451.85,"end":3454.85,"text":"農藥殘留容許量的標準"},{"start":3456.1,"end":3460.1,"text":"那麼因為都已經完成了前面的這些程序"},{"start":3460.1,"end":3464.1,"text":"那麼是不是要暫緩"},{"start":3464.1,"end":3468.1,"text":"那麼一定要有不同的這個證據"},{"start":3468.1,"end":3470.1,"text":"科學的證據出現"},{"start":3470.1,"end":3472.1,"text":"不然我們再重新做一遍"},{"start":3472.1,"end":3475.1,"text":"也是這樣的這個科學評估"},{"start":3475.1,"end":3478.1,"text":"所以要請委員會呢"},{"start":3478.1,"end":3480.1,"text":"那麼再重新來"},{"start":3481.16,"end":3483.16,"text":"考慮因為這個已經是正式公告"},{"start":3483.16,"end":3485.16,"text":"那麼如果要調整"},{"start":3485.16,"end":3489.16,"text":"那麼必須要有一些新的科學證據來佐證"},{"start":3489.16,"end":3491.16,"text":"那麼不然這個"},{"start":3491.57,"end":3493.57,"text":"這個已經公告了暫緩實施"},{"start":3493.57,"end":3495.57,"text":"那麼也必須要具體的理由"},{"start":3495.57,"end":3497.57,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":3498.66,"end":3500.66,"text":"請問部長有沒有文字修正"},{"start":3509.91,"end":3511.91,"text":"請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3513,"end":3515,"text":"有一件就進行表決"},{"start":3517.14,"end":3519.14,"text":"好"},{"start":3519.72,"end":3521.72,"text":"沒關係我們先請食藥署署長"},{"start":3534.26,"end":3537.26,"text":"各位委員大家早安"},{"start":3537.26,"end":3541.26,"text":"那針對剛才部長提到的委員會裡面"},{"start":3541.26,"end":3544.26,"text":"希望在一個一週內公布"},{"start":3544.26,"end":3547.26,"text":"蘋果、芬普尼農藥殘留標準"},{"start":3547.26,"end":3551.26,"text":"提高損取量至六倍的完整科學理由"},{"start":3551.26,"end":3554.26,"text":"說明醫學、毒理學及法規的依據"},{"start":3554.26,"end":3558.26,"text":"這部分應該是可以依照這樣子的辦理"},{"start":3558.26,"end":3560.26,"text":"第二部分是公布"},{"start":3560.26,"end":3562.26,"text":"因為評估的過程當中"},{"start":3562.26,"end":3565.26,"text":"針對特定的年齡族群的部分"},{"start":3565.26,"end":3567.26,"text":"蘋果農產品的時候"},{"start":3567.26,"end":3568.26,"text":"我們在評估的時候"},{"start":3568.26,"end":3572.26,"text":"其實不會針對各個所有農產品是一致的"},{"start":3572.26,"end":3575.26,"text":"其實是沒有特別針對所謂的農產品的"},{"start":3575.26,"end":3577.26,"text":"每一項的各個年齡的評估"},{"start":3577.26,"end":3581.26,"text":"我們是用OECD的Calculator裡面去進行去試算"},{"start":3581.26,"end":3584.26,"text":"是否可以公布完整風險評估的報告"},{"start":3584.26,"end":3587.26,"text":"這邊讓各位委員參酌"},{"start":3587.26,"end":3591.26,"text":"所以刪除掉各年齡層之五個字"},{"start":3591.26,"end":3597.26,"text":"第三個公布公開專家學者會議的紀錄"},{"start":3597.68,"end":3600.68,"text":"讓社會了解整個決策過程"},{"start":3600.68,"end":3603.68,"text":"我想這部分我們是否可以把"},{"start":3603.68,"end":3606.68,"text":"中間的文字叫及利益迴避等資訊"},{"start":3606.68,"end":3608.68,"text":"因為這些本來就是利益迴避"},{"start":3608.68,"end":3612.68,"text":"這些委員專家我們在內部的時候已經都確定了"},{"start":3612.68,"end":3617.68,"text":"對於第四點是否可以針對建立重大"},{"start":3617.68,"end":3621.68,"text":"我想說應該是每一個農藥的評估"},{"start":3621.68,"end":3623.68,"text":"我們都是非常慎重的"},{"start":3623.68,"end":3627.68,"text":"是否可以改成強化農藥最大的殘留容許標準"},{"start":3628.54,"end":3630.54,"text":"加兩個標準"},{"start":3630.54,"end":3635.54,"text":"然後MIL公眾溝通的相關議題公眾溝通"},{"start":3635.54,"end":3639.54,"text":"至於後續的因為每一個農藥"},{"start":3639.54,"end":3643.54,"text":"舉個例子我們111年取得申請提出申請"},{"start":3643.54,"end":3645.54,"text":"其實經過三年"},{"start":3645.84,"end":3647.84,"text":"不是"},{"start":3646.97,"end":3651.97,"text":"三天三個月是三年最後在110"},{"start":3652.34,"end":3658.34,"text":"四年九月份還在我們的自議會裡面討論確立"},{"start":3658.34,"end":3661.34,"text":"自議會的委員其實都是專家"},{"start":3661.34,"end":3664.34,"text":"專家評估之前也在國內的農藥所"},{"start":3664.34,"end":3667.34,"text":"作為最專業的評估之後"},{"start":3667.34,"end":3669.34,"text":"評估出來的結果"},{"start":3669.34,"end":3673.34,"text":"作為最後的一個我們委員的考量"},{"start":3673.34,"end":3674.34,"text":"以及判定的基準"},{"start":3674.34,"end":3681.34,"text":"所以這個過程當中其實是都已經有進行的相對的風險的評估確立"},{"start":3681.34,"end":3683.34,"text":"如果這個過程中每一個農藥"},{"start":3683.34,"end":3686.34,"text":"每一個相關的其實農藥只是一個"},{"start":3686.34,"end":3690.34,"text":"有非常非常多的所謂的動物用藥農業用藥的"},{"start":3690.34,"end":3698.34,"text":"這個訂定的標準可能會進一步影響到國人在使用所有的農產品"},{"start":3698.34,"end":3699.34,"text":"續產品等等"},{"start":3700.63,"end":3703.63,"text":"的這個流程當中的一些影響"},{"start":3703.63,"end":3709.63,"text":"所以這邊特別提到說我們能不能加強我們的公眾溝通這邊做說明"},{"start":3709.63,"end":3712.63,"text":"那第五點的部分特別提到的是"},{"start":3712.63,"end":3716.63,"text":"所以我們希望加上公眾溝通後面的參與制度"},{"start":3716.63,"end":3723.63,"text":"那即涉及大幅放寬容許量時應辦公聽會公開說明會跟風險溝通"},{"start":3723.63,"end":3727.63,"text":"及非僅以行政公告的方式辦理"},{"start":3727.63,"end":3732.63,"text":"那我們可以在公告的時候其實同時在農藥的議題上面"},{"start":3733.57,"end":3738.57,"text":"作為相對的所謂的利害關係者都可以予以及早的通知"},{"start":3738.57,"end":3740.57,"text":"讓他們知道公告的內涵跟內容"},{"start":3740.57,"end":3742.57,"text":"這部分我們可以額外的辦理"},{"start":3742.57,"end":3749.57,"text":"但是可不可以把後面的調整公眾的參與制度我們改成公眾溝通之後"},{"start":3749.57,"end":3754.57,"text":"其他的部分我們是另外的對於利害關係者予以說明"},{"start":3754.57,"end":3756.57,"text":"對於特別提到的第五項"},{"start":3756.57,"end":3760.57,"text":"那個試測到因為在制度上面我們針對5月"},{"start":3760.57,"end":3764.57,"text":"今年115年4月21日公告的農藥殘留容許標準"},{"start":3764.57,"end":3769.57,"text":"那的第三裡面的第三條附表一裡面"},{"start":3769.57,"end":3773.57,"text":"衛福部在特別提到未完成上述要求之前"},{"start":3773.57,"end":3779.57,"text":"我想在這個公告的原則我們是用其實是一致性的"},{"start":3779.57,"end":3783.57,"text":"所以OECD的計算公式裡面我們怎麼算"},{"start":3783.57,"end":3786.57,"text":"這個數字算起來按照國內的飲食的習慣"},{"start":3786.57,"end":3791.57,"text":"那我們其實有兩個部分一個田間的可能的容許"},{"start":3792,"end":3796,"text":"那加上我們的設施量整個算起來的OECD的"},{"start":3796,"end":3798,"text":"它其實是一套非常完整的公式"},{"start":3798,"end":3799,"text":"不是"},{"start":3799.54,"end":3803.54,"text":"不是用說覺得是3還覺得是4、5覺得是2"},{"start":3803.54,"end":3806.54,"text":"不是它算計算出來的一個結果"},{"start":3806.54,"end":3808.54,"text":"進行最後的公告"},{"start":3808.54,"end":3810.54,"text":"就如同剛才署部長提到的"},{"start":3810.54,"end":3814.54,"text":"如果已經是經過這麼嚴謹的評估先計算之後的結果"},{"start":3814.54,"end":3816.54,"text":"如果下次算出來是不一樣的"},{"start":3816.54,"end":3818.54,"text":"其實反而是很奇怪的"},{"start":3820.55,"end":3822.55,"text":"所以我們針對這個部分"},{"start":3822.55,"end":3825.55,"text":"已經公告的部分"},{"start":3825.55,"end":3828.55,"text":"建起說第五項的部分是不是予以刪除"},{"start":3828.55,"end":3829.55,"text":"以上"},{"start":3831.99,"end":3833.99,"text":"修正文字我也內建"},{"start":3836.78,"end":3838.78,"text":"請問這區委員"},{"start":3847.68,"end":3849.68,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3849.68,"end":3853.68,"text":"根據目前我們所看到的這個靈體的第一案"},{"start":3853.68,"end":3858.68,"text":"我們也了解對這個農藥的殘留容許標準"},{"start":3858.68,"end":3861.68,"text":"事實上是經過非常嚴謹的討論"},{"start":3861.68,"end":3864.68,"text":"專家也提出了相關的意見以後"},{"start":3864.68,"end":3867.68,"text":"我們才定出看到這個最後公告的標準"},{"start":3867.68,"end":3870.68,"text":"那我這邊是比較特別的想要了解"},{"start":3870.68,"end":3874.68,"text":"我們主管機關對於在這個臨時提案裡面的中間"},{"start":3874.68,"end":3879.68,"text":"那一段有關於毒蘋果這三個字如何來解讀"},{"start":3879.68,"end":3883.68,"text":"如果用毒蘋果這三個字讓民眾的感受會是什麼"},{"start":3883.68,"end":3885.68,"text":"如何能夠讓民眾了解"},{"start":3885.68,"end":3891.68,"text":"經過專家大家共同公告出來的這些內容"},{"start":3891.68,"end":3892.68,"text":"如果有意見"},{"start":3892.68,"end":3894.68,"text":"用毒蘋果這三個字來做"},{"start":3896.59,"end":3900.59,"text":"表述是不是合這邊也要麻煩主管機關"},{"start":3900.59,"end":3903.59,"text":"針對於這個臨時提案的這幾個內容"},{"start":3903.59,"end":3905.59,"text":"還要加進一步的說明"},{"start":3905.59,"end":3908.59,"text":"因為我們也了解說把人民的身體"},{"start":3908.59,"end":3910.59,"text":"當作毒品實驗室來對待"},{"start":3910.59,"end":3914.59,"text":"這個字眼其實也是值得去商榷的"},{"start":3914.59,"end":3918.59,"text":"我們都了解我自己本身在這個醫療服務過程裡面"},{"start":3918.59,"end":3922.59,"text":"我們常常需要進行一些所謂的臨床試驗等等"},{"start":3922.59,"end":3925.59,"text":"可是我們這邊看到這個人民的身體"},{"start":3925.59,"end":3928.59,"text":"身體當作毒品實驗室這樣的字眼"},{"start":3928.59,"end":3930.59,"text":"如果呈現在這個臨時提案裡面"},{"start":3930.59,"end":3934.59,"text":"主管機關如何能夠說明的更清楚"},{"start":3934.59,"end":3937.59,"text":"也讓這個臨時提案在這個處理過程當中"},{"start":3937.59,"end":3940.59,"text":"是可以讓我們將來在討論的時候"},{"start":3940.59,"end":3943.59,"text":"尤其是主管機關在表達立場的時候"},{"start":3943.59,"end":3946.59,"text":"也能夠讓這樣的文字說明可以更為明確"},{"start":3946.59,"end":3947.59,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":3950.87,"end":3952.87,"text":"請月清再會"},{"start":3962.58,"end":3965.58,"text":"同樣的我也是對於所謂什麼叫毒蘋果"},{"start":3965.58,"end":3970.58,"text":"這個人也真的是要麻煩我們的衛部長清楚說明白"},{"start":3970.58,"end":3972.58,"text":"不過真的是讓人家很多誤解"},{"start":3972.58,"end":3976.58,"text":"尤其是我們現在針對蘋果的那個"},{"start":3976.58,"end":3979.58,"text":"分普寧殘留容許量的標準"},{"start":3979.58,"end":3982.58,"text":"這邊大概有說明和美國日本韓國相比"},{"start":3982.58,"end":3984.58,"text":"到底哪個比較嚴格"},{"start":3984.58,"end":3987.58,"text":"從這邊搭提案有說"},{"start":3987.58,"end":3989.58,"text":"那我們就直接稱這個叫作毒蘋果嗎"},{"start":3989.58,"end":3991.58,"text":"那如果這樣的話"},{"start":3991.58,"end":3993.58,"text":"是不是我們講美國韓國的"},{"start":3993.58,"end":3995.58,"text":"甚至日本的也是毒蘋果"},{"start":3995.58,"end":3997.58,"text":"只要超過零點五的都叫作毒蘋果"},{"start":3997.58,"end":3999.58,"text":"所以我想說要把它定義清楚"},{"start":3999.58,"end":4001.58,"text":"另外一個也要問衛福部的"},{"start":4001.58,"end":4003.58,"text":"這邊提出來的"},{"start":4003.58,"end":4005.58,"text":"也就是說你們"},{"start":4007.3,"end":4008.3,"text":"沒有做到嗎"},{"start":4008.3,"end":4010.3,"text":"像公開蘋果"},{"start":4010.3,"end":4014.3,"text":"分普寧農藥的殘留標準容許量到六倍的"},{"start":4014.3,"end":4018.3,"text":"那個科學完整的理由是沒有去做說明"},{"start":4018.3,"end":4020.3,"text":"甚至有沒有針對醫學"},{"start":4020.3,"end":4023.3,"text":"毒理學根治法規的一些依據"},{"start":4023.3,"end":4027.3,"text":"還有你們的專家會議過去一直"},{"start":4027.3,"end":4029.3,"text":"有沒有委員去調資料"},{"start":4029.3,"end":4032.3,"text":"你們完全不提供也都不給他們"},{"start":4032.3,"end":4034.3,"text":"多久的時間他們每一次都去調"},{"start":4034.3,"end":4036.3,"text":"然後你們都沒有給"},{"start":4036.3,"end":4038.3,"text":"所以這次會提到說"},{"start":4038.3,"end":4040.3,"text":"要公開這些會議記錄是"},{"start":4040.3,"end":4042.3,"text":"曾經有委員去調了然後沒有給"},{"start":4042.3,"end":4044.3,"text":"甚至你們立意迴避的資訊"},{"start":4044.3,"end":4046.3,"text":"也通通都是沒有提供嗎"},{"start":4046.3,"end":4049.3,"text":"因為他說要讓社會了解決策過程"},{"start":4050.79,"end":4054.79,"text":"長達多久是從這11屆的時候"},{"start":4054.79,"end":4056.79,"text":"委員進來就一直在調資料"},{"start":4056.79,"end":4058.79,"text":"可是你們從來都不提供"},{"start":4058.79,"end":4060.79,"text":"所以我想理解"},{"start":4060.79,"end":4062.79,"text":"甚至提到說"},{"start":4062.79,"end":4066.79,"text":"那這些東西到底整個的狀況"},{"start":4066.79,"end":4068.79,"text":"因為最近民眾發質疑說"},{"start":4068.79,"end":4070.79,"text":"這次是不是因為美國要求"},{"start":4070.79,"end":4072.79,"text":"所以台灣才調整標準"},{"start":4072.79,"end":4074.79,"text":"部長也要說明一下這一項"},{"start":4074.79,"end":4076.79,"text":"容許量到底是什麼時候開始研議"},{"start":4076.79,"end":4078.79,"text":"什麼時候預告的"},{"start":4078.79,"end":4080.79,"text":"做正式公告"},{"start":4080.79,"end":4082.79,"text":"也開始研議到正式公告"},{"start":4082.79,"end":4084.79,"text":"到底中間經歷了多久"},{"start":4084.79,"end":4086.79,"text":"那程序是否真的是充分公開"},{"start":4086.79,"end":4090.79,"text":"那預告期間有多少專家學者提出了一些意見"},{"start":4090.79,"end":4092.79,"text":"還有多少民間團體提出反對或修正意見"},{"start":4092.79,"end":4094.79,"text":"那你最後採納了什麼樣意見"},{"start":4094.79,"end":4096.79,"text":"那提案二我就不太理解"},{"start":4096.79,"end":4098.79,"text":"因為為什麼"},{"start":4098.79,"end":4100.79,"text":"因為我們這次是委員會"},{"start":4100.79,"end":4102.79,"text":"這邊寫的是說"},{"start":4102.79,"end":4104.79,"text":"建請院會做成決議"},{"start":4104.79,"end":4106.79,"text":"我們這到底是委員會還是院會"},{"start":4106.79,"end":4108.79,"text":"我不太理解"},{"start":4108.79,"end":4110.79,"text":"因為我們大家都同意"},{"start":4111.76,"end":4113.76,"text":"應該"},{"start":4113.03,"end":4115.03,"text":"不會期待"},{"start":4115.03,"end":4117.03,"text":"我們如果問題的由"},{"start":4117.03,"end":4119.03,"text":"要重新下架"},{"start":4119.03,"end":4121.03,"text":"我想這個大家都一致"},{"start":4121.03,"end":4123.03,"text":"可是真的要去講清楚說明白"},{"start":4123.03,"end":4125.03,"text":"以上"},{"start":4123.77,"end":4125.77,"text":"好謝謝李育勤再會"},{"start":4125.77,"end":4127.77,"text":"接下來請陳金輝委員"},{"start":4133.04,"end":4135.04,"text":"各位委員官員主席大家好"},{"start":4135.04,"end":4137.04,"text":"剛剛署長有特別講到說"},{"start":4137.04,"end":4139.04,"text":"他對於4月公佈的這個"},{"start":4139.04,"end":4141.04,"text":"農藥殘留值"},{"start":4141.04,"end":4143.04,"text":"他對每一個品項的年齡"},{"start":4143.04,"end":4145.04,"text":"風險評估是一樣的"},{"start":4145.04,"end":4147.04,"text":"我就要在這邊跟大家講說"},{"start":4147.04,"end":4149.04,"text":"是不一樣的"},{"start":4149.04,"end":4151.04,"text":"首先我們來講分譜泥是什麼"},{"start":4151.04,"end":4153.04,"text":"他是農藥"},{"start":4153.04,"end":4155.04,"text":"如果不慎使用過量的話"},{"start":4155.04,"end":4157.04,"text":"可能會發生皮膚刺痛頭痛"},{"start":4157.04,"end":4159.04,"text":"嚴重的時候全身抽搐"},{"start":4159.04,"end":4161.04,"text":"癱瘓或呼吸影響"},{"start":4161.04,"end":4163.04,"text":"他不使國際上認為分譜泥"},{"start":4163.04,"end":4165.04,"text":"不太可能對人類致癌"},{"start":4165.04,"end":4167.04,"text":"像我們今天討論的這個"},{"start":4167.04,"end":4169.04,"text":"致癌有樣"},{"start":4169.04,"end":4171.04,"text":"但是不代表分譜泥無毒"},{"start":4171.04,"end":4177.04,"text":"今年4月公告這個農藥的殘留值允許的這個修正內容"},{"start":4177.04,"end":4181.04,"text":"他把分譜泥做了殘留的劑量調整"},{"start":4181.04,"end":4183.04,"text":"原本在梨果適用同樣標準"},{"start":4183.04,"end":4185.04,"text":"這個是"},{"start":4185.04,"end":4187.04,"text":"我去看了每一樣的水果"},{"start":4187.04,"end":4189.04,"text":"蘋果是唯一"},{"start":4189.04,"end":4191.04,"text":"殘留量提高的水果"},{"start":4191.04,"end":4195.04,"text":"由原本的0.5ppm到3ppm"},{"start":4195.04,"end":4198.04,"text":"但是一樣列出來的櫻桃是下修"},{"start":4198.04,"end":4201.04,"text":"他是從5ppm下修到3ppm"},{"start":4201.04,"end":4205.04,"text":"下面我們要去看他後面描述的內容"},{"start":4205.04,"end":4207.04,"text":"他後面描述內容"},{"start":4207.04,"end":4209.04,"text":"櫻桃寫得非常詳細"},{"start":4209.04,"end":4212.04,"text":"他明確的指出部分年齡層"},{"start":4212.04,"end":4215.04,"text":"這個應該是指的是比較脆弱的"},{"start":4215.04,"end":4217.04,"text":"或者是兒童等等"},{"start":4217.04,"end":4222.04,"text":"短期取食風險超過100% AR50"},{"start":4222.04,"end":4226.04,"text":"白話文就講說特定年齡層如果一口氣吃比較多"},{"start":4226.04,"end":4231.04,"text":"攝取的分譜泥高機率會超過短期安全的上限"},{"start":4231.04,"end":4235.04,"text":"而這些東西你沒有寫在蘋果裡面"},{"start":4235.04,"end":4237.04,"text":"那我今天就想問說"},{"start":4237.04,"end":4242.04,"text":"為什麼你不同的水果後面描述的內容差這麼多"},{"start":4242.04,"end":4246.04,"text":"那我們也會想要知道特定族群如果短期內吃了"},{"start":4246.04,"end":4248.04,"text":"很多的話有什麼風險"},{"start":4248.04,"end":4250.04,"text":"蘋果後面沒有描述"},{"start":4250.04,"end":4252.04,"text":"所以我們的提案是很合理的"},{"start":4252.04,"end":4253.04,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4258.44,"end":4259.44,"text":"好"},{"start":4261,"end":4264,"text":"請問有人對行車機關的修正文字有沒有意見"},{"start":4268.02,"end":4269.02,"text":"好"},{"start":4271.92,"end":4275.92,"text":"所以有的人去能夠維持提案"},{"start":4275.92,"end":4278.92,"text":"那就現在委員提案採取點名表決"},{"start":4280.97,"end":4282.97,"text":"你們國內有一間專門所長"},{"start":4283.97,"end":4285.97,"text":"我們就維持原提案了"},{"start":4285.97,"end":4287.97,"text":"再點名表決"},{"start":4287.97,"end":4289.97,"text":"你們反對就反對我們下次就在那裡採訪"},{"start":4294.5,"end":4296.5,"text":"知道啊第三案喔"},{"start":4296.83,"end":4297.83,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4298.46,"end":4299.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4300,"end":4304,"text":"我們針對第二線委員提案採取點名表決請問有無異議"},{"start":4307.93,"end":4309.93,"text":"那我們就採點名表決"},{"start":4320.87,"end":4321.87,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4323.86,"end":4324.86,"text":"好"},{"start":4329.57,"end":4331.57,"text":"我們一樣一樣下次進行"},{"start":4333.06,"end":4334.06,"text":"我們也是"},{"start":4334.78,"end":4336.78,"text":"我講一下我沒有要反對"},{"start":4336.94,"end":4337.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4338.54,"end":4341.54,"text":"我們所有的提案都先唸過"},{"start":4342.15,"end":4344.15,"text":"有唸過了"},{"start":4346.66,"end":4347.66,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4349.93,"end":4350.93,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4352.4,"end":4353.4,"text":"提上案"},{"start":4353.4,"end":4354.4,"text":"聲明提上案"},{"start":4355.91,"end":4356.91,"text":"正在應用"},{"start":4360.67,"end":4362.67,"text":"好"},{"start":4370.77,"end":4372.77,"text":"你們的案子早也提啊"},{"start":4377.02,"end":4379.02,"text":"好沒關係我們針對第一案"},{"start":4379.02,"end":4381.02,"text":"做點名表決"},{"start":4383.94,"end":4384.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4385.97,"end":4387.97,"text":"來啦先處理了"},{"start":4387.97,"end":4389.97,"text":"一樣一樣先處理"},{"start":4389.97,"end":4391.97,"text":"第三案再宣布"},{"start":4391.97,"end":4393.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4396.05,"end":4397.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4400.74,"end":4402.74,"text":"我們先處理第二案"},{"start":4402.74,"end":4404.74,"text":"我們現在進行表決採用點名表決"},{"start":4404.74,"end":4406.74,"text":"依立法院點名表決"},{"start":4406.74,"end":4409.74,"text":"辦法相關規定以出席委員簽到不為明策"},{"start":4409.74,"end":4410.74,"text":"由出席"},{"start":4410.74,"end":4412.74,"text":"由本席依簽到不"},{"start":4412.74,"end":4414.74,"text":"持續簽名"},{"start":4414.74,"end":4416.74,"text":"在場委員簽到姓名時"},{"start":4416.74,"end":4418.74,"text":"贊成者請起立答"},{"start":4418.74,"end":4420.74,"text":"贊成反對者"},{"start":4420.74,"end":4421.74,"text":"起立答反對"},{"start":4421.74,"end":4422.74,"text":"起庭者"},{"start":4422.74,"end":4423.74,"text":"起立答"},{"start":4423.74,"end":4424.74,"text":"去全"},{"start":4424.74,"end":4426.74,"text":"依該辦法第六條第二項"},{"start":4426.74,"end":4427.74,"text":"OK"},{"start":4430.26,"end":4432.26,"text":"依一次"},{"start":4432.26,"end":4433.26,"text":"主席姓名時名"},{"start":4433.26,"end":4436.26,"text":"註實表決全之行使"},{"start":4436.26,"end":4437.26,"text":"依立法院之前"},{"start":4437.26,"end":4438.26,"text":"第六條後段"},{"start":4438.26,"end":4439.26,"text":"這規定"},{"start":4439.26,"end":4440.26,"text":"參與"},{"start":4440.26,"end":4442.26,"text":"第一級進行計算宣告結果"},{"start":4443.67,"end":4449.67,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":4445.61,"end":4447.61,"text":"李玉琴委員贊成或反對"},{"start":4449.97,"end":4450.97,"text":"點點"},{"start":4452.26,"end":4454.26,"text":"我是陳慶輝委員"},{"start":4455.37,"end":4456.37,"text":"邱慧如委員"},{"start":4456.37,"end":4457.37,"text":"贊成"},{"start":4457.37,"end":4458.37,"text":"王玉冰委員"},{"start":4458.37,"end":4459.37,"text":"贊成"},{"start":4462.51,"end":4464.51,"text":"林淑芬委員"},{"start":4464.51,"end":4465.51,"text":"邱正君委員"},{"start":4467.3,"end":4468.3,"text":"王正趣委員"},{"start":4470.18,"end":4471.18,"text":"圖群集委員"},{"start":4473.58,"end":4474.58,"text":"書青全委員"},{"start":4476.34,"end":4477.34,"text":"亮榮小幕員"},{"start":4477.96,"end":4478.96,"text":"黃謝方委員"},{"start":4480.39,"end":4481.39,"text":"陳永永委員"},{"start":4495.97,"end":4496.97,"text":"陳永永委員"},{"start":4497.08,"end":4498.08,"text":"不在啊"},{"start":4498.08,"end":4501.08,"text":"這個陳永永"},{"start":4501.08,"end":4502.08,"text":"念過了"},{"start":4502.08,"end":4503.08,"text":"劉建國委員"},{"start":4509.47,"end":4514.47,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":4511.97,"end":4516.97,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":4512.96,"end":4517.96,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":4517.43,"end":4522.43,"text":"這場出行的人11人不含準時贊成者7人反對者4人"},{"start":4522.9,"end":4525.9,"text":"贊成者多數過半本案通過"},{"start":4528.74,"end":4529.74,"text":"現在進行第二案"},{"start":4534.19,"end":4537.19,"text":"進行的機關說明"},{"start":4539.41,"end":4541.41,"text":"這麼過了嗎"},{"start":4548.86,"end":4550.86,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":4550.8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義"},{"start":4851.32,"end":4853.32,"text":"我們都也在為了你"},{"start":4853.32,"end":4855.32,"text":"不要讓"},{"start":4855.32,"end":4856.32,"text":"好"},{"start":4856.32,"end":4858.32,"text":"對點名表決"},{"start":4858.32,"end":4859.32,"text":"有沒有意見"},{"start":4859.32,"end":4860.32,"text":"有沒有意義"},{"start":4860.32,"end":4861.32,"text":"沒有"},{"start":4866.6,"end":4868.6,"text":"對我們進行點名表決"},{"start":4868.6,"end":4869.6,"text":"有意義請委員"},{"start":4879.4,"end":4881.4,"text":"現在點名表決"},{"start":4881.4,"end":4882.4,"text":"林月琴委員"},{"start":4886.37,"end":4887.37,"text":"陳金輝委員"},{"start":4889.04,"end":4890.04,"text":"邱慧如委員"},{"start":4890.79,"end":4891.79,"text":"王玉明委員"},{"start":4893.02,"end":4894.02,"text":"林淑芬委員"},{"start":4895.1,"end":4896.1,"text":"邱政軍委員"},{"start":4896.1,"end":4898.1,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":4901.66,"end":4902.66,"text":"圖權級委員"},{"start":4904.26,"end":4905.26,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":4906.3,"end":4908.3,"text":"廖偉祥委員"},{"start":4908.3,"end":4909.3,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":4912.07,"end":4913.07,"text":"陳銀委員"},{"start":4916.11,"end":4917.11,"text":"劉建國委員"},{"start":4921.88,"end":4923.88,"text":"他們沒有加文"},{"start":4927.11,"end":4928.11,"text":"好"},{"start":4930.86,"end":4931.86,"text":"好"},{"start":4933.17,"end":4934.17,"text":"在場出席委員"},{"start":4934.17,"end":4936.17,"text":"石毅仁不凡主席贊成者"},{"start":4936.17,"end":4937.17,"text":"七人表決"},{"start":4937.17,"end":4938.17,"text":"結果贊成者"},{"start":4939.36,"end":4940.36,"text":"多謝"},{"start":4940.93,"end":4941.93,"text":"第二通過"},{"start":4943.75,"end":4944.75,"text":"現在進行第三案"},{"start":4945.76,"end":4946.76,"text":"請宣誓第三案"},{"start":4949.18,"end":4952.18,"text":"針對中聯郵局本篇筆超標事件"},{"start":4952.18,"end":4954.18,"text":"要求衛生福利部儘速處理"},{"start":4954.18,"end":4956.18,"text":"在查明流向與真相前"},{"start":4956.18,"end":4958.18,"text":"不合格郵品維持不得上架"},{"start":4958.18,"end":4960.18,"text":"並啟動銷毀程序"},{"start":4960.18,"end":4962.18,"text":"檢驗合格的郵品使得上架"},{"start":4962.18,"end":4964.18,"text":"維護市售食品安全"},{"start":4964.18,"end":4966.18,"text":"及保障消費者權益"},{"start":4966.18,"end":4967.18,"text":"提案委員陳銀"},{"start":4967.18,"end":4968.18,"text":"林月琴"},{"start":4968.18,"end":4969.18,"text":"王振旭"},{"start":4969.18,"end":4970.18,"text":"黃秀芳"},{"start":4970.18,"end":4971.18,"text":"劉建國"},{"start":4972.4,"end":4973.4,"text":"行政機關說明"},{"start":4978.24,"end":4985.24,"text":"有關陳銀、林月琴委員等所提出的"},{"start":4985.24,"end":4990.24,"text":"要求衛福部查明流向、真相"},{"start":4990.24,"end":4993.24,"text":"不合格的郵品不得上架"},{"start":4993.24,"end":4996.24,"text":"並啟動銷毀程序"},{"start":4996.24,"end":4998.24,"text":"檢驗合格的才能夠上架"},{"start":4998.24,"end":5001.24,"text":"維持市售食品安全"},{"start":5001.24,"end":5003.24,"text":"保障消費者權益"},{"start":5003.24,"end":5004.24,"text":"我們敬表支持"},{"start":5004.24,"end":5005.24,"text":"目前的整個做法"},{"start":5005.24,"end":5008.24,"text":"就是完全跟委員所提案的是一致的"},{"start":5008.24,"end":5009.24,"text":"所以敬表支持"},{"start":5014.17,"end":5015.17,"text":"請問委員沒見"},{"start":5018.82,"end":5020.82,"text":"沒有一切就照案通過"},{"start":5021.47,"end":5022.47,"text":"先進行第四案"},{"start":5026.52,"end":5028.52,"text":"要求衛生福利部於一周內"},{"start":5028.52,"end":5032.52,"text":"公開蘋果、芬普寧農藥殘留標準提高容許量"},{"start":5032.52,"end":5034.52,"text":"至六倍的完整科學理由"},{"start":5034.52,"end":5037.52,"text":"說明醫學、獨立學及法規依據"},{"start":5037.52,"end":5041.52,"text":"二公佈各年齡層之完整風險評估報告"},{"start":5041.52,"end":5045.52,"text":"三公開專家會議記錄及利益迴避資訊"},{"start":5045.52,"end":5047.52,"text":"讓社會瞭解決策過程"},{"start":5047.52,"end":5050.52,"text":"四建立重大農藥最大容許量"},{"start":5052.68,"end":5054.68,"text":"調整公眾參與制度"},{"start":5054.68,"end":5059.68,"text":"必要時因辦理公聽會公開說明會及風險溝通"},{"start":5060.62,"end":5062.62,"text":"重新檢討"},{"start":5062.62,"end":5065.62,"text":"一一五年四月二十一日公告之"},{"start":5065.62,"end":5067.62,"text":"農藥殘留容許量標準"},{"start":5067.62,"end":5073.62,"text":"未受十字第一一五一三零零八二一號第三條副表一"},{"start":5074.23,"end":5078.23,"text":"提案委員林月請陳瑩、黃秀芳、王振旭宣讀完畢"},{"start":5078.97,"end":5080.97,"text":"好"},{"start":5080.03,"end":5082.03,"text":"請在機關說明"},{"start":5085.36,"end":5087.36,"text":"這個"},{"start":5086.29,"end":5088.29,"text":"跟委員會說明"},{"start":5088.29,"end":5091.29,"text":"這個在這個提案"},{"start":5091.29,"end":5094.29,"text":"林月請陳瑩委員的這個提案裡面"},{"start":5094.29,"end":5102.29,"text":"那麼公開評估的分譜您農藥殘留標準提高容許量的這個完整科學理由"},{"start":5102.29,"end":5108.29,"text":"那麼說明這些依理學理還有讀理學這些完全沒有問題"},{"start":5108.29,"end":5115.29,"text":"那第二個是不是文字稍作修正公佈包含年齡層的完整風險評估報告"},{"start":5115.29,"end":5117.29,"text":"因為前面那個是依據"},{"start":5117.29,"end":5121.29,"text":"那我們有一個完整的風險評估報告是包含年齡層"},{"start":5121.29,"end":5124.29,"text":"是完整風險評估報告"},{"start":5124.29,"end":5127.29,"text":"各自各把它改成包含"},{"start":5127.29,"end":5133.29,"text":"那麼其他第三點這個會議紀錄的公開"},{"start":5133.29,"end":5140.29,"text":"第四點建立重大農藥的這個MRL的調整公眾參與制度"},{"start":5140.29,"end":5142.29,"text":"這個我們都競表同意支持"},{"start":5142.29,"end":5149.29,"text":"那麼至於必要時應辦理公聽會公開說明會跟風險公通這個我們可以遵照辦理"},{"start":5149.29,"end":5151.29,"text":"至於最後一個"},{"start":5152.66,"end":5158.66,"text":"跟我剛剛提到的一樣這個在之前都已經做過這個完整的評估"},{"start":5158.66,"end":5162.66,"text":"那麼當然如果有新的證據我們就可以再討論"},{"start":5162.66,"end":5166.66,"text":"所以這邊提到說重新檢討我們來看看收集一下"},{"start":5166.66,"end":5173.66,"text":"有沒有新的科學的證據或者是新的這個標這個其他國家的標準"},{"start":5173.66,"end":5178.66,"text":"我們來重新再檢視一下這個我們可以來研議"},{"start":5178.66,"end":5185.66,"text":"所以是不是這個第五點前面加個研議兩個字研議重新檢討這樣"},{"start":5185.66,"end":5186.66,"text":"好謝謝市部長"},{"start":5187.86,"end":5190.86,"text":"請問我們是否在行政機關修正文字通過"},{"start":5194.17,"end":5195.17,"text":"無意通過"},{"start":5197.97,"end":5202.97,"text":"人民吃不消全民要健康"},{"start":5202.97,"end":5209.97,"text":"獨有獨蘋果人民吃不消全民要健康"},{"start":5209.97,"end":5215.97,"text":"獨有獨蘋果人民吃不消全民要健康"},{"start":5217.85,"end":5221.85,"text":"臨時體驗全數處理完畢現在開始尋討"},{"start":5221.85,"end":5224.85,"text":"現在請登記第一位委員林院請照位發言"},{"start":5239.35,"end":5241.35,"text":"主席麻煩市部長"},{"start":5241.35,"end":5242.35,"text":"主席是中央部長"},{"start":5244.38,"end":5248.38,"text":"部長這次中央的責任我們大概一向都不會逃避"},{"start":5248.38,"end":5253.38,"text":"因為立法院已多次安排相關報告跟質詢"},{"start":5253.38,"end":5258.38,"text":"而且院長也於7月14號到院進行專案報告並備詢"},{"start":5258.38,"end":5262.38,"text":"可是我要提醒的是最近藍白兩黨的政治攻防"},{"start":5262.38,"end":5267.38,"text":"幾乎把地方政府從食品安全衛生管理法裡邊刪掉了"},{"start":5267.38,"end":5272.38,"text":"台東市長盧秀燕甚至指控你中央不准地方查場"},{"start":5272.38,"end":5275.38,"text":"民眾黨則指控說中央甩鍋地方"},{"start":5275.38,"end":5277.38,"text":"可是法律不是這樣寫的啊"},{"start":5277.38,"end":5278.38,"text":"今天我們要逐條來看"},{"start":5278.38,"end":5280.38,"text":"到底地方政府依法有什麼權利"},{"start":5280.38,"end":5283.38,"text":"負什麼責實際做了什麼"},{"start":5283.38,"end":5285.38,"text":"部長三法第二條是不是明定"},{"start":5286.29,"end":5289.29,"text":"在直轄市主管機關就是直轄市政府"},{"start":5290.36,"end":5292.36,"text":"請問部長主管機關的意思是什麼"},{"start":5292.36,"end":5295.36,"text":"所以台東市政府不是中央的協辦機關"},{"start":5295.36,"end":5298.36,"text":"不是受中央委託才有權查場"},{"start":5298.36,"end":5302.36,"text":"而是法律直接規定的主管機關對不對"},{"start":5302.36,"end":5304.36,"text":"沒有錯第二條事實上是這樣明定"},{"start":5304.36,"end":5308.36,"text":"所以我們今天不是中央要不要把權利交給台中"},{"start":5308.36,"end":5311.36,"text":"而是台中根本就是依法有權"},{"start":5311.36,"end":5313.36,"text":"而且也是依法有責"},{"start":5313.36,"end":5315.36,"text":"國民黨近期反覆主張"},{"start":5315.36,"end":5319.36,"text":"中央施壓台中不要查場不要公布留下不要下架"},{"start":5319.36,"end":5321.36,"text":"有委員還稱這個是事實"},{"start":5321.36,"end":5325.36,"text":"我有我現在有的公開資料顯示"},{"start":5325.36,"end":5327.36,"text":"七月一號因為六月三十號通報"},{"start":5327.36,"end":5330.36,"text":"七月一號中央跟台中已經共同查場了"},{"start":5330.36,"end":5332.36,"text":"怎麼說中央你不准他去查場"},{"start":5332.36,"end":5335.36,"text":"而且部長一第四十一條"},{"start":5335.36,"end":5338.36,"text":"台中市要進入中聯查場抽驗"},{"start":5338.36,"end":5340.36,"text":"調閱生產及出貨資料"},{"start":5340.36,"end":5343.36,"text":"需要食藥署逐案批准嗎"},{"start":5343.36,"end":5346.36,"text":"地方作業到底怎麼進行啊"},{"start":5347.03,"end":5348.03,"text":"要你們批嗎"},{"start":5348.03,"end":5352.03,"text":"跟委員說明這個在食安法裡面"},{"start":5352.03,"end":5357.03,"text":"把中央跟所有的食安都是中央跟地方要一起合作"},{"start":5357.03,"end":5360.03,"text":"那麼也在食安法裡面去明定了"},{"start":5360.03,"end":5363.03,"text":"所以要你們批准他才可以去查場嗎"},{"start":5363.03,"end":5365.03,"text":"食品查核跟管制也明定"},{"start":5365.03,"end":5368.03,"text":"這個地方的主管機關可以進入"},{"start":5368.03,"end":5373.03,"text":"進行現場的查核及抽樣的檢驗"},{"start":5373.03,"end":5376.03,"text":"所以這個是在食安法"},{"start":5376.03,"end":5378.03,"text":"十一條就講得很清楚了"},{"start":5378.03,"end":5382.03,"text":"就是說本來就授權地方進場查核"},{"start":5382.03,"end":5383.03,"text":"抽驗產品"},{"start":5383.03,"end":5385.03,"text":"調閱生產及出貨資料"},{"start":5385.03,"end":5388.03,"text":"必要時還可以命令停工停售跟封存"},{"start":5388.03,"end":5390.03,"text":"產品確認如果違規後"},{"start":5390.03,"end":5395.03,"text":"地方還可以命令業者回收銷毀公佈違法的資訊"},{"start":5395.03,"end":5397.03,"text":"並依法來做裁罰"},{"start":5397.03,"end":5399.03,"text":"所以既然不需要中央批准"},{"start":5399.03,"end":5402.03,"text":"那麼所謂的中央不准地方查場"},{"start":5402.03,"end":5403.03,"text":"在法律到底是什麼"},{"start":5403.03,"end":5406.03,"text":"中央有沒有依法律做成一份"},{"start":5406.03,"end":5408.03,"text":"有沒有一個正式公文給他說"},{"start":5408.03,"end":5411.03,"text":"表示說禁止台中"},{"start":5411.03,"end":5413.03,"text":"要依法行使四十一條的權限"},{"start":5413.03,"end":5414.03,"text":"說他不可以做"},{"start":5414.03,"end":5416.03,"text":"有嗎你有拿公文給他嗎"},{"start":5416.03,"end":5417.03,"text":"從來沒有這樣的"},{"start":5417.03,"end":5420.03,"text":"所以我今天要做的一件事情就是要釐清事實"},{"start":5420.03,"end":5423.03,"text":"我們才能夠回到舊事論事"},{"start":5423.03,"end":5424.03,"text":"沒有舊事論事的公文記錄"},{"start":5424.03,"end":5426.03,"text":"就不能夠把中央跟地方"},{"start":5426.03,"end":5428.03,"text":"因為為什麼有這個"},{"start":5428.03,"end":5429.03,"text":"中央跟地方"},{"start":5429.03,"end":5431.03,"text":"中央跟地方因為7月"},{"start":5431.03,"end":5433.03,"text":"中央在7月4號開專家會議的時候"},{"start":5433.03,"end":5436.03,"text":"認為中聯無復工的可能性"},{"start":5436.03,"end":5438.03,"text":"所以7月5號不用查場"},{"start":5438.03,"end":5440.03,"text":"根本就不要讓他復工了"},{"start":5440.03,"end":5442.03,"text":"那只是因為這一次的意見"},{"start":5442.03,"end":5444.03,"text":"就間諜欣喜地說"},{"start":5444.03,"end":5446.03,"text":"地方的法定查場"},{"start":5447.33,"end":5449.33,"text":"事實上是在中央要授權"},{"start":5449.33,"end":5452.33,"text":"簡直是莫名其妙"},{"start":5452.33,"end":5455.33,"text":"所以我覺得部長"},{"start":5455.33,"end":5457.33,"text":"台中市即便宣稱中央施壓"},{"start":5457.33,"end":5459.33,"text":"可是台中市在本案中"},{"start":5459.33,"end":5461.33,"text":"實際跟中央進場"},{"start":5461.33,"end":5463.33,"text":"顯示台中市政府確實知道"},{"start":5463.33,"end":5465.33,"text":"我們的食安法第四十一條"},{"start":5465.33,"end":5468.33,"text":"直接授權地方的權責"},{"start":5468.33,"end":5469.33,"text":"可是這個時間"},{"start":5469.33,"end":5473.33,"text":"台北市長蔣萬佑主張"},{"start":5473.33,"end":5476.33,"text":"中央應全面檢驗其他的油品上游"},{"start":5476.33,"end":5479.33,"text":"生產源頭跟供應的業者"},{"start":5479.33,"end":5483.33,"text":"不應該仅仰賴業者的自主通報"},{"start":5483.33,"end":5484.33,"text":"不過這兩種說法"},{"start":5484.33,"end":5486.33,"text":"台中跟台北市的說法放在一起"},{"start":5486.33,"end":5488.33,"text":"正好顯示兩個重要的"},{"start":5488.33,"end":5491.33,"text":"六都的首長對法規各取所需"},{"start":5491.33,"end":5493.33,"text":"只看自己想要看的"},{"start":5493.33,"end":5494.33,"text":"唯一的共同點就是"},{"start":5494.33,"end":5497.33,"text":"不想依法論法來討論地方的責任"},{"start":5497.33,"end":5501.33,"text":"部長依食安法第五條第七條第四十一條"},{"start":5501.33,"end":5502.33,"text":"完整的說明"},{"start":5502.33,"end":5505.33,"text":"業者依法應主動通報地方"},{"start":5505.33,"end":5508.33,"text":"但業者隱匿延遲跟通報私靈的時候"},{"start":5508.33,"end":5513.33,"text":"地方主管機關原本應該負哪些監督抽驗"},{"start":5513.33,"end":5516.33,"text":"摧查流向及進場管制責任"},{"start":5518.19,"end":5523.19,"text":"我想在食安法裡面就如同剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":5523.19,"end":5527.19,"text":"第五條的責任還有第四十一條都明定"},{"start":5527.19,"end":5530.19,"text":"那麼他應該要進行的相關的查核"},{"start":5530.19,"end":5533.19,"text":"那麼發現有違反相關的條文"},{"start":5533.19,"end":5536.19,"text":"包含違反第八條第十五條"},{"start":5536.19,"end":5538.19,"text":"那麼第十六條的規定"},{"start":5538.19,"end":5542.19,"text":"他就可以依這個四十一條的授權"},{"start":5542.19,"end":5544.19,"text":"做暫停作業"},{"start":5544.19,"end":5550.19,"text":"或者是停止販賣封存的這一些法律採取的行動"},{"start":5550.19,"end":5554.19,"text":"那麼接獲通報也是一樣"},{"start":5554.19,"end":5556.19,"text":"那麼他也有一些可以"},{"start":5556.19,"end":5558.19,"text":"對而且一第五十二條"},{"start":5558.19,"end":5563.19,"text":"有哪一級政府要做成回收銷毀跟公布處分"},{"start":5563.19,"end":5565.19,"text":"而且甚至一第五十五條"},{"start":5565.19,"end":5567.19,"text":"又有哪一級政府要負責裁罰"},{"start":5567.19,"end":5568.19,"text":"都是地方政府"},{"start":5568.19,"end":5571.19,"text":"所以不能因為業者沒有通報"},{"start":5571.19,"end":5574.19,"text":"就把地方政府應有的所有的主動監測"},{"start":5574.19,"end":5576.19,"text":"跟第一線執法的責任一併推回中央"},{"start":5576.19,"end":5580.19,"text":"不能夠自己想看哪一條法條來做"},{"start":5580.19,"end":5582.19,"text":"而應該要所有的要依法"},{"start":5582.19,"end":5585.19,"text":"部長台中市政府說我造謠了"},{"start":5585.19,"end":5587.19,"text":"可是針點其實很簡單"},{"start":5587.19,"end":5590.19,"text":"我問的是中聯這一家大型油廠"},{"start":5590.19,"end":5592.19,"text":"到底抽驗幾次驗了什麼"},{"start":5592.19,"end":5595.19,"text":"結果台中市鬼打牆的回答的是"},{"start":5595.19,"end":5597.19,"text":"卻是全市查了多少家"},{"start":5597.19,"end":5598.19,"text":"抽驗多少件"},{"start":5598.19,"end":5602.19,"text":"現在又說中央專案名單沒有中聯"},{"start":5602.19,"end":5606.19,"text":"台中市議員查閱市府的公開資料指出"},{"start":5606.19,"end":5611.19,"text":"中聯從111年到114年共查"},{"start":5611.19,"end":5612.19,"text":"我們的稽查了六次"},{"start":5612.19,"end":5616.19,"text":"可真正抽取油品送進實驗室"},{"start":5616.19,"end":5620.19,"text":"查驗的只有113年4月26號一次"},{"start":5620.19,"end":5624.19,"text":"之後多次在查廠房的環境"},{"start":5624.19,"end":5626.19,"text":"作業流程跟文件資料"},{"start":5626.19,"end":5627.19,"text":"多謝各位"},{"start":5626.98,"end":5628.98,"text":"中央掌握的是中聯近年的稽查"},{"start":5628.98,"end":5630.98,"text":"抽樣跟檢驗的紀錄"},{"start":5630.98,"end":5632.98,"text":"是否跟上述我剛剛講的"},{"start":5632.98,"end":5635.98,"text":"只有看到的台中111年4月16號那一次"},{"start":5635.98,"end":5640.98,"text":"那也要問那個4月26號到底查的是哪些項目"},{"start":5640.98,"end":5643.98,"text":"有沒有檢驗那個本篇筆"},{"start":5643.98,"end":5647.98,"text":"在台中市食安專區公布的抽驗報告"},{"start":5647.98,"end":5651.98,"text":"八次都沒有驗本篇筆 是嗎"},{"start":5651.98,"end":5654.98,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們在每年"},{"start":5654.98,"end":5657.98,"text":"我們都會有食藥署的專案稽查"},{"start":5657.98,"end":5660.98,"text":"他們的目的是在對全國性的"},{"start":5660.98,"end":5664.98,"text":"一致性的稽查項目去做規範"},{"start":5664.98,"end":5667.98,"text":"但是各地方政府要依據他"},{"start":5667.98,"end":5670.98,"text":"在地轄管的產業屬性"},{"start":5670.98,"end":5673.98,"text":"去擬定需要去查核的"},{"start":5673.98,"end":5676.98,"text":"所以我們從過去的紀錄看起來"},{"start":5676.98,"end":5678.98,"text":"確實如委員所提到的"},{"start":5678.98,"end":5681.98,"text":"真正去驗大豆沙拉油的"},{"start":5681.98,"end":5685.98,"text":"本篇筆的紀錄就是在113年"},{"start":5685.98,"end":5689.98,"text":"配合中央的專案稽查所做的那一次檢驗"},{"start":5689.98,"end":5691.98,"text":"所以我覺得連蔣萬安市長都認為"},{"start":5691.98,"end":5694.98,"text":"盧秀燕市長應該會說清楚"},{"start":5696.32,"end":5699.32,"text":"我認為這樣子如果"},{"start":5700.17,"end":5703.17,"text":"這種說辭真的事實上是會造成業者"},{"start":5703.17,"end":5706.17,"text":"僥倖心理 我覺得都需要被檢討"},{"start":5706.17,"end":5710.17,"text":"另外像114年台中市的"},{"start":5710.17,"end":5714.17,"text":"有指的稽查專案並沒有把中聯列入"},{"start":5714.17,"end":5716.17,"text":"台中市政府回應說法律沒有規定"},{"start":5716.17,"end":5718.17,"text":"每一家工廠每一項產品"},{"start":5718.17,"end":5720.17,"text":"每一年都固定檢驗"},{"start":5720.17,"end":5723.17,"text":"並稱中央專案名單沒有中聯"},{"start":5723.17,"end":5725.17,"text":"可是一 我們食安法第五條"},{"start":5725.17,"end":5727.17,"text":"本來就要求"},{"start":5727.05,"end":5731.05,"text":"我們的各級主管機關都要建立風險監測體系"},{"start":5731.05,"end":5734.05,"text":"對中聯這種大量的供應全國"},{"start":5734.05,"end":5737.05,"text":"下游範圍非常廣的一個上游遊場"},{"start":5737.05,"end":5740.05,"text":"地方政府是不是就應該要依產量"},{"start":5740.05,"end":5744.05,"text":"我們的製程風險 供應的規模跟違規紀錄"},{"start":5744.05,"end":5747.05,"text":"決定的稽查跟抽驗的強度來做"},{"start":5747.05,"end":5750.05,"text":"而不是反而是推給中央最快"},{"start":5750.05,"end":5753.05,"text":"中央專案沒有列入某一家業者"},{"start":5753.05,"end":5755.05,"text":"會不會影響地方依法"},{"start":5755.05,"end":5757.05,"text":"自己要去執行稽查跟抽驗"},{"start":5757.05,"end":5758.05,"text":"如果按照第五條"},{"start":5758.05,"end":5760.05,"text":"事實上本來各級地方政府"},{"start":5760.05,"end":5762.05,"text":"本來就要依你自己的"},{"start":5762.05,"end":5764.05,"text":"去做一個風險監測的體系"},{"start":5764.05,"end":5766.05,"text":"那如果這樣的話"},{"start":5766.05,"end":5768.05,"text":"那中聯在台中"},{"start":5768.05,"end":5770.05,"text":"它是不是本身台中市政府就可以去"},{"start":5770.05,"end":5772.05,"text":"那地方的檢驗是"},{"start":5772.05,"end":5774.05,"text":"中央一個口令一個動作"},{"start":5774.05,"end":5775.05,"text":"要列名單才會查嗎"},{"start":5775.05,"end":5777.05,"text":"我想問 他說你沒列名單"},{"start":5777.05,"end":5779.05,"text":"所以他不查 你要列名單他才會查嗎"},{"start":5779.95,"end":5781.95,"text":"剛剛跟委員說明過"},{"start":5781.95,"end":5783.95,"text":"我們所列的是全國性的"},{"start":5783.95,"end":5786.95,"text":"一致性的專案是這樣"},{"start":5786.95,"end":5787.95,"text":"但是各地方政府是"},{"start":5787.95,"end":5791.95,"text":"根據它俠管的產業屬性跟風險"},{"start":5791.95,"end":5794.95,"text":"那麼去擬定它地方年度的"},{"start":5794.95,"end":5796.95,"text":"這個查核的一些計畫"},{"start":5796.95,"end":5798.95,"text":"在過去一向都是如此"},{"start":5798.95,"end":5801.95,"text":"所以每個地方政府"},{"start":5801.95,"end":5802.95,"text":"像台南高雄"},{"start":5802.95,"end":5805.95,"text":"那麼他們評估過它所做的"},{"start":5805.95,"end":5808.95,"text":"那當然不一定是受限於"},{"start":5808.95,"end":5810.95,"text":"這個主管機關"},{"start":5810.95,"end":5813.95,"text":"那麼就是我們食藥署的"},{"start":5813.95,"end":5814.95,"text":"年度的機械項目"},{"start":5814.95,"end":5815.95,"text":"當然是不一樣"},{"start":5815.95,"end":5817.95,"text":"那個是全國一致性的"},{"start":5817.95,"end":5820.95,"text":"那地方是要按照它的產業屬性去擬定"},{"start":5822.41,"end":5823.41,"text":"所以要再說一次"},{"start":5823.41,"end":5826.41,"text":"第五條也是要求各級主管機關"},{"start":5826.41,"end":5828.41,"text":"要建立監測體系"},{"start":5828.41,"end":5830.41,"text":"第四十一條也直接授權地方"},{"start":5830.41,"end":5833.41,"text":"政府可以進場查核跟抽樣檢驗"},{"start":5833.41,"end":5836.41,"text":"所以我認為台中如果認為資料有錯"},{"start":5836.41,"end":5838.41,"text":"就把採樣單 送檢單"},{"start":5838.41,"end":5841.41,"text":"檢驗項目及正式的報告全部公開"},{"start":5841.41,"end":5843.41,"text":"還有不要換分母"},{"start":5843.41,"end":5845.41,"text":"更不要把地方依法可以做的事情"},{"start":5845.41,"end":5849.41,"text":"應該做的事情全部推給中央"},{"start":5849.41,"end":5851.41,"text":"部長 我不會替署長"},{"start":5851.41,"end":5853.41,"text":"做特別費的那個辯護"},{"start":5853.41,"end":5855.41,"text":"可是也會把二十一萬八千元"},{"start":5855.41,"end":5858.41,"text":"誇大成食藥署全部的預算備看"},{"start":5858.41,"end":5860.41,"text":"預算當然可以檢讀"},{"start":5860.41,"end":5861.41,"text":"可是這份提案"},{"start":5861.41,"end":5863.41,"text":"前面寫的是署長特別費"},{"start":5863.41,"end":5864.41,"text":"最後卻又寫說"},{"start":5864.41,"end":5867.41,"text":"八月到十二月的業務費全部減劣"},{"start":5867.41,"end":5869.41,"text":"減劣金額還留白"},{"start":5869.41,"end":5871.41,"text":"究竟是要刪哪一筆"},{"start":5872.85,"end":5874.85,"text":"我覺得必須要說明清楚"},{"start":5874.85,"end":5877.85,"text":"不能前跟後 對不起來"},{"start":5879.16,"end":5880.16,"text":"依正式預算說明書"},{"start":5880.16,"end":5883.16,"text":"如果只刪署長的特別費"},{"start":5883.16,"end":5886.16,"text":"那這筆特別費原始用途"},{"start":5886.16,"end":5888.16,"text":"是在做食品檢驗嗎"},{"start":5888.16,"end":5891.16,"text":"是在說食品那個嗎 維運嗎"},{"start":5891.16,"end":5894.16,"text":"還是說地方的茶場下架的補助"},{"start":5894.16,"end":5896.16,"text":"刪掉之後到底能不能改善"},{"start":5896.16,"end":5898.16,"text":"中聯案的那個延遲通報"},{"start":5898.16,"end":5900.16,"text":"跟流向不明"},{"start":5900.16,"end":5901.16,"text":"更嚴重的是"},{"start":5901.16,"end":5904.16,"text":"如果提案到最後要刪的是全部業務費"},{"start":5904.16,"end":5906.16,"text":"就連租金 水電 網路"},{"start":5906.16,"end":5908.16,"text":"保全跟約用人員的經費"},{"start":5908.16,"end":5909.16,"text":"全部都受到影響"},{"start":5909.16,"end":5911.16,"text":"那可能很多人就要失業了"},{"start":5911.16,"end":5914.16,"text":"那對食安藥安跟醫材管理"},{"start":5914.16,"end":5916.16,"text":"會造成哪些具體的衝擊"},{"start":5916.16,"end":5917.16,"text":"那這些費用當中"},{"start":5917.16,"end":5919.16,"text":"哪一項是造成中聯延遲通報"},{"start":5919.16,"end":5924.16,"text":"哪一項是導致我們的流向茶器失靈"},{"start":5924.16,"end":5925.16,"text":"所以如果全部刪除"},{"start":5925.16,"end":5927.16,"text":"那也就跟"},{"start":5927.16,"end":5930.16,"text":"也有跟在野黨所說的合理保障"},{"start":5930.16,"end":5934.16,"text":"必要經費嚴格刪減讓費互相矛盾"},{"start":5934.16,"end":5937.16,"text":"我要請這個提案的在野黨"},{"start":5937.16,"end":5938.16,"text":"的思考"},{"start":5938.31,"end":5940.31,"text":"三預算究竟是為了改革"},{"start":5940.31,"end":5942.31,"text":"還是為了政治的威嚇"},{"start":5942.31,"end":5943.31,"text":"要想清楚"},{"start":5943.31,"end":5946.31,"text":"而且不要前後文都對不起來"},{"start":5946.31,"end":5947.31,"text":"不然前面"},{"start":5947.31,"end":5950.31,"text":"在野黨把責任都推給中央"},{"start":5950.31,"end":5951.31,"text":"可是很特別"},{"start":5951.31,"end":5952.31,"text":"甚至要三預算"},{"start":5952.31,"end":5953.31,"text":"可是最後提出來方向"},{"start":5953.31,"end":5955.31,"text":"仍然回到源頭檢驗"},{"start":5955.31,"end":5957.31,"text":"異常通報 流向追蹤"},{"start":5957.31,"end":5958.31,"text":"跟預防性下降"},{"start":5958.31,"end":5959.31,"text":"跟行政院目前"},{"start":5960.55,"end":5963.55,"text":"提出來的改革核心高度的重疊"},{"start":5963.55,"end":5965.55,"text":"代表大家都知道全責分工"},{"start":5965.55,"end":5967.55,"text":"跟加強管理是解決的方法"},{"start":5967.55,"end":5968.55,"text":"既然如此"},{"start":5968.55,"end":5970.55,"text":"就不要再比誰罵的大聲"},{"start":5970.55,"end":5972.55,"text":"因回到條文討論到"},{"start":5972.55,"end":5975.55,"text":"到底我們要怎麼樣落地比較重要"},{"start":5975.55,"end":5977.55,"text":"所以我覺得行政院規劃"},{"start":5977.55,"end":5981.55,"text":"針對我們的高風險業者的檢驗的頻率"},{"start":5981.55,"end":5984.55,"text":"跟實驗室跟第三方的通報"},{"start":5984.55,"end":5987.55,"text":"那把各市期責的東西都確認清楚的話"},{"start":5987.55,"end":5989.55,"text":"地方風險導向查核"},{"start":5989.55,"end":5991.55,"text":"重大事件中央來指揮"},{"start":5991.55,"end":5993.55,"text":"以及下架跟重新上架的原則"},{"start":5993.55,"end":5995.55,"text":"請部長具體說明"},{"start":5995.55,"end":5997.55,"text":"我們的高風險業者如何認定"},{"start":5997.55,"end":5999.55,"text":"地方查核的強度如何決定"},{"start":5999.55,"end":6001.55,"text":"而且要如何被討論"},{"start":6001.55,"end":6003.55,"text":"好 跟委員說明"},{"start":6003.55,"end":6005.55,"text":"這個我們食藥署的責任"},{"start":6005.55,"end":6010.55,"text":"就是要確保民眾的食品安全"},{"start":6010.55,"end":6015.55,"text":"那麼有很多的計畫跟系統制度要建立"},{"start":6015.55,"end":6018.55,"text":"那麼這些執行都需要預算"},{"start":6018.55,"end":6022.55,"text":"所以我們懇請立法院能夠支持"},{"start":6022.55,"end":6024.55,"text":"食藥署的預算"},{"start":6024.55,"end":6027.55,"text":"來為人民的食品安全"},{"start":6027.55,"end":6029.55,"text":"來做把關來提升"},{"start":6029.55,"end":6032.55,"text":"那麼至於特別費的部分"},{"start":6032.55,"end":6034.55,"text":"那麼我也要特別拜託"},{"start":6034.55,"end":6037.55,"text":"因為在食藥署"},{"start":6037.55,"end":6041.55,"text":"大家很多的同仁是相當辛苦"},{"start":6041.55,"end":6043.55,"text":"那麼署長歷年也都會"},{"start":6043.55,"end":6047.55,"text":"把他的特別費用在對員工的一些犒賞"},{"start":6047.55,"end":6050.55,"text":"那麼這個在這麼多的業務下"},{"start":6050.55,"end":6053.55,"text":"那麼對員工的激勵"},{"start":6053.55,"end":6055.55,"text":"也是相當有他的必要性"},{"start":6055.55,"end":6060.55,"text":"所以也懇請委員能夠給予衡量著情"},{"start":6060.55,"end":6064.55,"text":"那麼至於在這個修法的部分"},{"start":6064.55,"end":6067.55,"text":"我們已經剛剛在我的口頭報告裡面"},{"start":6067.55,"end":6069.55,"text":"大概有十個方向"},{"start":6069.55,"end":6072.55,"text":"那麼我也參酌了國民黨團"},{"start":6072.55,"end":6075.55,"text":"也提出的一些修法的條文"},{"start":6075.55,"end":6078.55,"text":"那麼也都跟我們大概都含納了"},{"start":6078.55,"end":6080.55,"text":"它只是有一些放在執法規"},{"start":6080.55,"end":6083.55,"text":"有一些是在母法裡面來修訂"},{"start":6083.55,"end":6087.55,"text":"所以我們期待盡快的能夠排入委員會"},{"start":6087.55,"end":6090.55,"text":"來審查這個食安法的修法"},{"start":6090.55,"end":6093.55,"text":"所以我覺得食安修法不是搶攻牢牢"},{"start":6093.55,"end":6095.55,"text":"我覺得既然朝野方向既然都接近"},{"start":6095.55,"end":6097.55,"text":"就應該停止政治動作"},{"start":6097.55,"end":6099.55,"text":"把真正有效的制度寫進法律"},{"start":6099.55,"end":6102.55,"text":"這個比較務實才是幫全民把關"},{"start":6102.55,"end":6103.55,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":6103.55,"end":6105.55,"text":"好謝謝 林委員"},{"start":6118.42,"end":6120.42,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員"},{"start":6120.42,"end":6122.42,"text":"我們請石部長謝謝官員"},{"start":6122.42,"end":6123.42,"text":"了解 部長"},{"start":6126.21,"end":6127.21,"text":"好 陳委員好"},{"start":6127.21,"end":6130.21,"text":"好 部長我們來簡單的回顧一下"},{"start":6130.21,"end":6133.21,"text":"6月30 7月1號到現在發生什麼事情了"},{"start":6133.21,"end":6135.21,"text":"我們來看一下投影片"},{"start":6137.25,"end":6141.25,"text":"6月30號 7月1號爆發致癌油的事件"},{"start":6141.25,"end":6144.25,"text":"7月3號江志剛署長說"},{"start":6144.25,"end":6145.25,"text":"業者也是受害者"},{"start":6145.25,"end":6147.25,"text":"所以不公布名單"},{"start":6147.25,"end":6150.25,"text":"7月5號訂出一個全民搞不清楚"},{"start":6150.25,"end":6153.25,"text":"20%以上 20%以下的東西"},{"start":6153.25,"end":6158.25,"text":"7月6號的早上找了上次他口中說"},{"start":6158.25,"end":6162.25,"text":"很關心食安的沈柏央委員私底下開會"},{"start":6162.25,"end":6166.25,"text":"7月6號下午賴清德說該就責就就責"},{"start":6166.25,"end":6167.25,"text":"該下架就下架"},{"start":6167.25,"end":6169.25,"text":"他的意思就是叫你們趕快下架"},{"start":6170.76,"end":6174.76,"text":"好 7月14號卓榮泰跑來立法院"},{"start":6174.76,"end":6177.76,"text":"不但嗆委員還說他不是來道歉的"},{"start":6177.76,"end":6180.76,"text":"還說講不懂聽不講台語"},{"start":6180.76,"end":6182.76,"text":"大家聽不懂是不是"},{"start":6182.76,"end":6184.76,"text":"7月15 林靜怡說"},{"start":6184.76,"end":6187.76,"text":"叫大家不要吃炸雞排"},{"start":6187.76,"end":6191.76,"text":"然後那時候他也講這個原因可能是源頭"},{"start":6191.76,"end":6192.76,"text":"也可能是致癢"},{"start":6192.76,"end":6194.76,"text":"含含糊糊不知道在講什麼"},{"start":6194.76,"end":6197.76,"text":"7月16 吳徵說"},{"start":6197.76,"end":6201.76,"text":"又不是民進黨逼大家吃炸雞排油的"},{"start":6201.76,"end":6205.76,"text":"7月18 你們的議員說我們如喪考匹"},{"start":6205.76,"end":6207.76,"text":"還說人民無知喔"},{"start":6207.76,"end":6210.76,"text":"7月19 潘孟安說"},{"start":6211.4,"end":6213.4,"text":"推記者不要跟我炒新聞"},{"start":6213.4,"end":6217.4,"text":"7月20 你們的發言人戴偉山說"},{"start":6217.4,"end":6220.4,"text":"本篇鄙視天然物質"},{"start":6220.4,"end":6224.4,"text":"回想起10年前12年前"},{"start":6224.4,"end":6228.4,"text":"你們身為執政黨對這項政府態度是什麼標準是什麼"},{"start":6228.4,"end":6231.4,"text":"剛剛有委員有講蔡奇昌陳其邁說"},{"start":6231.4,"end":6234.4,"text":"行政院長下台總統出來道歉"},{"start":6234.4,"end":6237.4,"text":"這個是你們好久以前的標準"},{"start":6237.4,"end":6240.4,"text":"我現在都看不出來你們對自己的標準在哪裡了"},{"start":6241.3,"end":6243.3,"text":"這麼多事情發生了"},{"start":6244.49,"end":6249.49,"text":"7月21 突然很高調的宣布要成立一個調查小組"},{"start":6251.43,"end":6255.43,"text":"到現在都不用有人負責不用有人下台"},{"start":6255.43,"end":6257.43,"text":"6月30 發生到現在"},{"start":6257.43,"end":6261.43,"text":"這麼多人在罵人民罵在野黨"},{"start":6261.43,"end":6265.43,"text":"7月21 才說要成立調查小組"},{"start":6266.44,"end":6267.44,"text":"好不好笑啊"},{"start":6268.92,"end":6271.92,"text":"符不符合你們以前給自己的標準啊"},{"start":6271.92,"end":6273.92,"text":"還攻擊人民說人民無知"},{"start":6275.13,"end":6278.13,"text":"人民其中有很多疑問我現在就來幫大家論"},{"start":6278.13,"end":6279.13,"text":"下一張"},{"start":6281.38,"end":6283.38,"text":"這邊我們一定要問"},{"start":6283.38,"end":6286.38,"text":"剛剛講了一下說不公佈名單"},{"start":6286.38,"end":6289.38,"text":"以下說第二層不用下架"},{"start":6289.38,"end":6291.38,"text":"以下說20%以上20%以下"},{"start":6291.38,"end":6296.38,"text":"現在你們今天一定要講出這個20%是誰決定的"},{"start":6296.38,"end":6299.38,"text":"因為你看江志剛以前他的標題叫做"},{"start":6299.38,"end":6302.38,"text":"相毒有不毒但我一滴也不想吃"},{"start":6302.38,"end":6305.38,"text":"他都知道說人民一滴也不想吃"},{"start":6305.38,"end":6307.38,"text":"江教授知道江醫師知道"},{"start":6307.38,"end":6310.38,"text":"誰定出20%現在要講清楚"},{"start":6310.38,"end":6313.38,"text":"講清楚給大家知道是誰定20%"},{"start":6313.38,"end":6315.38,"text":"誰改掉20%"},{"start":6315.87,"end":6316.87,"text":"我們現在就要知道"},{"start":6319.89,"end":6320.89,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":6320.89,"end":6324.89,"text":"在民主的社會民眾對於政府"},{"start":6326.16,"end":6329.16,"text":"這個人員的這個問責"},{"start":6329.16,"end":6331.16,"text":"我想這個是應該的"},{"start":6331.16,"end":6333.16,"text":"這個我們一定會虛心的受教"},{"start":6333.16,"end":6337.16,"text":"那不過問責的基礎是在於有沒有行政帶動"},{"start":6337.16,"end":6340.16,"text":"有沒有違反法定的責任"},{"start":6340.16,"end":6344.16,"text":"6月30號爆發事件7月20日成立調查小組"},{"start":6344.16,"end":6346.16,"text":"你覺得沒有帶動"},{"start":6346.16,"end":6349.16,"text":"我們在6月30號呢接獲通報"},{"start":6349.16,"end":6353.16,"text":"7月1號那麼就已經協同台中市衛生局"},{"start":6353.16,"end":6357.16,"text":"直接到場裡面去做查場稽查"},{"start":6357.16,"end":6359.16,"text":"這個都是我們的職責"},{"start":6359.16,"end":6361.16,"text":"我跟你說你不用講這些"},{"start":6361.16,"end":6363.16,"text":"因為大家只要看"},{"start":6363.16,"end":6365.16,"text":"大家只要看流程圖就已經知道"},{"start":6365.16,"end":6368.16,"text":"你們跟民進黨的官網差的有多少"},{"start":6368.16,"end":6370.16,"text":"民進黨官網現在都還寫啊"},{"start":6370.16,"end":6372.16,"text":"三天內公佈流向"},{"start":6372.16,"end":6374.16,"text":"民進黨官網現在都還這樣寫"},{"start":6374.16,"end":6376.16,"text":"我這一題是在問你20%誰定的"},{"start":6376.16,"end":6377.16,"text":"誰改的"},{"start":6377.16,"end":6379.16,"text":"你只要告訴我們20%誰定的"},{"start":6379.16,"end":6381.16,"text":"誰改的就好了"},{"start":6381.16,"end":6383.16,"text":"好我現在跟委員說明"},{"start":6383.16,"end":6386.16,"text":"所以我們在7月1號去查場之後"},{"start":6386.16,"end":6391.16,"text":"那麼7月2號就公佈了要求下架的品項"},{"start":6391.16,"end":6395.16,"text":"在7月3號的中午以前我們就下架了"},{"start":6395.16,"end":6399.16,"text":"那麼之後我們7月4號就開了專家會議"},{"start":6399.16,"end":6404.16,"text":"那麼把我們在7月1號去查場的這些相關"},{"start":6404.16,"end":6406.16,"text":"那麼收集到的資料"},{"start":6406.16,"end":6410.16,"text":"那麼跟委員這些專家大家討論"},{"start":6410.16,"end":6414.16,"text":"討論之後才會做出中聯在當時候"},{"start":6414.16,"end":6417.16,"text":"是不可能馬上就要復工"},{"start":6417.16,"end":6420.16,"text":"因為他很多的資料是不齊全的"},{"start":6420.16,"end":6421.16,"text":"你說20%誰定"},{"start":6421.16,"end":6423.16,"text":"這些我們都已經知道了"},{"start":6423.16,"end":6425.16,"text":"同時也去討論"},{"start":6426.62,"end":6430.62,"text":"對於我們在106年所定的在委員的螢幕下"},{"start":6430.62,"end":6432.62,"text":"就有這個食品違規"},{"start":6432.62,"end":6435.62,"text":"事件的下架的階層處理原則"},{"start":6435.62,"end":6439.62,"text":"當時候一共分成十大類的下架原則"},{"start":6439.62,"end":6440.62,"text":"這個我們也看過"},{"start":6440.62,"end":6442.62,"text":"我現在就幫你圈起來"},{"start":6442.62,"end":6445.62,"text":"你看到我圈起來的嗎"},{"start":6445.62,"end":6450.62,"text":"這個106年上面自己的說明欄裡面有寫"},{"start":6450.62,"end":6455.62,"text":"作為行政處置參考"},{"start":6455.62,"end":6457.62,"text":"他已經寫得很清楚了"},{"start":6457.62,"end":6460.62,"text":"作為行政處置的參考"},{"start":6460.62,"end":6462.62,"text":"既然是參考"},{"start":6462.62,"end":6465.62,"text":"是叫你當聖經嗎聖旨嗎"},{"start":6465.62,"end":6468.62,"text":"你說到底是誰定20%的"},{"start":6468.62,"end":6470.62,"text":"誰參考這個定20%"},{"start":6470.62,"end":6472.62,"text":"把這個過程跟您說明"},{"start":6472.62,"end":6474.62,"text":"那麼這個處理原則"},{"start":6474.62,"end":6479.62,"text":"在106年的12月就已經通通發布"},{"start":6479.62,"end":6481.62,"text":"給各縣市衛生局來做"},{"start":6481.62,"end":6484.62,"text":"在未來發生到"},{"start":6485.53,"end":6487.53,"text":"發生這個違規事件的時候"},{"start":6487.53,"end":6490.53,"text":"讓這個全國在處理下架的時候"},{"start":6490.53,"end":6494.53,"text":"那麼有他的一致性原則來做依據"},{"start":6494.53,"end":6497.53,"text":"所以這個是在106年12月"},{"start":6497.53,"end":6500.53,"text":"我知道你的細項裡面寫第一層第二層"},{"start":6500.53,"end":6504.53,"text":"你先告訴我是誰看了這個處理原則"},{"start":6504.53,"end":6507.53,"text":"本來是給你們做行政處置參考"},{"start":6507.53,"end":6509.53,"text":"因為他裡面沒有提到20%"},{"start":6509.53,"end":6511.53,"text":"是誰決定20%的"},{"start":6511.53,"end":6513.53,"text":"我現在就是要跟你說明"},{"start":6513.53,"end":6515.53,"text":"你直接說明就好了"},{"start":6515.53,"end":6518.53,"text":"才會召開這個專家會議去討論"},{"start":6518.53,"end":6520.53,"text":"這一個處理原則之後"},{"start":6520.53,"end":6522.53,"text":"那再根據這一個事件"},{"start":6522.53,"end":6524.53,"text":"去做了一個調整"},{"start":6524.53,"end":6527.53,"text":"所以就會增加包含原型油品"},{"start":6527.53,"end":6531.53,"text":"以及使用超過20%的百分比的"},{"start":6531.53,"end":6534.53,"text":"那麼建議那麼一起下架"},{"start":6534.53,"end":6536.53,"text":"所以現在是講專家講"},{"start":6536.53,"end":6537.53,"text":"你們參考了專家"},{"start":6537.53,"end":6539.53,"text":"對專家會議的決定"},{"start":6539.53,"end":6542.53,"text":"好你口口聲聲從上次來報告到現在"},{"start":6542.53,"end":6546.53,"text":"你說你們是依照這個指引加嚴"},{"start":6546.53,"end":6547.53,"text":"加嚴嘛"},{"start":6547.53,"end":6548.53,"text":"對加嚴"},{"start":6548.53,"end":6550.53,"text":"加嚴為什麼不定10%"},{"start":6550.53,"end":6551.53,"text":"為什麼不定15%"},{"start":6551.53,"end":6552.53,"text":"為什麼不定50%"},{"start":6552.53,"end":6553.53,"text":"為什麼是定20%"},{"start":6553.53,"end":6556.53,"text":"我們今天就是要問你誰定出20%的"},{"start":6556.53,"end":6558.53,"text":"就是在專家會議裡面討論出來的"},{"start":6558.53,"end":6560.53,"text":"專家怎麼算出來的"},{"start":6560.53,"end":6563.53,"text":"這個專家的會議是不是請在現場"},{"start":6563.53,"end":6564.53,"text":"簡短一下"},{"start":6565.52,"end":6567.52,"text":"委員所有的油品"},{"start":6567.52,"end":6569.52,"text":"它是有衛生安全標準的"},{"start":6569.52,"end":6570.52,"text":"是2 ppp"},{"start":6570.52,"end":6571.52,"text":"如果一個產品"},{"start":6571.52,"end":6574.52,"text":"它使用在8.1 ppb之下"},{"start":6575.36,"end":6577.36,"text":"20%絕對不會超過"},{"start":6577.36,"end":6579.36,"text":"絕對在衛生安全標準底下"},{"start":6579.36,"end":6582.36,"text":"所以所有的委員在一個科學的基準之下"},{"start":6582.36,"end":6583.36,"text":"討論之後"},{"start":6583.36,"end":6586.36,"text":"那你會不會覺得你現在口中講出這句話"},{"start":6586.36,"end":6589.36,"text":"對照你上面自己寫的文章很好笑嗎"},{"start":6589.63,"end":6591.63,"text":"我想這個部分"},{"start":6591.63,"end":6593.63,"text":"我們對於民眾的"},{"start":6593.63,"end":6596.63,"text":"你的意思是說源頭就有問題的東西"},{"start":6596.63,"end":6599.63,"text":"做出來的東西只要稀釋夠了"},{"start":6599.63,"end":6602.63,"text":"稀釋夠了你們就定出這個標準"},{"start":6602.63,"end":6605.63,"text":"那你這麼堅持的話你後來為什麼又改"},{"start":6605.63,"end":6606.63,"text":"所以是你定的囉"},{"start":6606.63,"end":6609.63,"text":"容我再說一下"},{"start":6609.63,"end":6615.63,"text":"因為在當時是不知道這個油是有所謂的延遲"},{"start":6615.63,"end":6617.63,"text":"延遲跟已經"},{"start":6617.63,"end":6620.63,"text":"業者已經知道它是參偽假冒"},{"start":6620.63,"end":6622.63,"text":"或者是已經延遲通報"},{"start":6622.63,"end":6624.63,"text":"知道裡面有相關的扁平皮"},{"start":6624.63,"end":6625.63,"text":"事先不知道"},{"start":6625.63,"end":6627.63,"text":"所以我們在調查當時的時候是這樣的"},{"start":6627.63,"end":6629.63,"text":"後來發現"},{"start":6629.63,"end":6630.63,"text":"它有這種行為之下"},{"start":6630.63,"end":6634.63,"text":"我們做的後續的全面性的預防下架以及下架"},{"start":6634.63,"end":6636.63,"text":"它前面就已經違法了"},{"start":6636.63,"end":6640.63,"text":"前面違法是6月30號到7月3號的時候"},{"start":6640.63,"end":6642.63,"text":"我聽懂了"},{"start":6642.63,"end":6645.63,"text":"它是用小學生的數學算出來的"},{"start":6645.63,"end":6647.63,"text":"8%"},{"start":6647.63,"end":6650.63,"text":"8PPG乘以20%"},{"start":6650.63,"end":6653.63,"text":"那你乘以10%不是更加嚴嗎"},{"start":6653.63,"end":6655.63,"text":"你乘以10%不是更加嚴嗎"},{"start":6655.63,"end":6659.63,"text":"我想整個會全世界對於油品的管理裡面"},{"start":6659.63,"end":6662.63,"text":"有這樣子的衛生安全標準超標的"},{"start":6662.63,"end":6665.63,"text":"第一層下架是universal的"},{"start":6665.61,"end":6668.61,"text":"這樣的概念我想這邊要再次的強調"},{"start":6668.61,"end":6671.61,"text":"並不是食藥署提出的第一層下架"},{"start":6671.61,"end":6673.61,"text":"並不是第一層下架是我們第一層下架"},{"start":6673.61,"end":6675.61,"text":"你說過的絕對不允許"},{"start":6675.61,"end":6680.61,"text":"有任何不合法的原料參雜"},{"start":6680.61,"end":6682.61,"text":"它源頭就已經不合法了"},{"start":6682.61,"end":6684.61,"text":"你居然說7月4號的時候"},{"start":6684.61,"end":6687.61,"text":"並不知道它是被參雜"},{"start":6687.61,"end":6689.61,"text":"這個並不是外加的"},{"start":6689.61,"end":6691.61,"text":"從頭到尾都有人外加的"},{"start":6691.61,"end":6692.61,"text":"那誰改的嗎"},{"start":6692.61,"end":6694.61,"text":"那你講一講為什麼又改了"},{"start":6694.61,"end":6697.61,"text":"你20%這個規則幾乎只有存在一兩天"},{"start":6697.61,"end":6699.61,"text":"誰決定的還有誰改的"},{"start":6699.61,"end":6700.61,"text":"我們只講這個"},{"start":6700.61,"end":6702.61,"text":"誰決定跟誰改的"},{"start":6703.54,"end":6704.54,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":6704.54,"end":6707.54,"text":"當然在專家的會議討論出來是20%"},{"start":6707.54,"end":6711.54,"text":"認為是可以在科學上接受可接受"},{"start":6711.54,"end":6714.54,"text":"但是後來在執行上"},{"start":6714.54,"end":6717.54,"text":"我們除了科學的安全之外"},{"start":6717.54,"end":6721.54,"text":"也考量行政上的執行的複雜度"},{"start":6721.54,"end":6725.54,"text":"因為如果要在一一去檢視百分比"},{"start":6725.54,"end":6727.54,"text":"需要花更長的時間"},{"start":6727.54,"end":6728.54,"text":"你是沒有在那邊開會嗎"},{"start":6728.54,"end":6729.54,"text":"我沒有開會"},{"start":6729.54,"end":6730.54,"text":"我專家會議"},{"start":6730.54,"end":6732.54,"text":"江署長有嗎"},{"start":6732.54,"end":6733.54,"text":"有"},{"start":6733.54,"end":6736.54,"text":"那你聽完都不會覺得執行上有困難"},{"start":6736.54,"end":6739.54,"text":"江署長聽完沒有覺得執行上有困難"},{"start":6739.54,"end":6742.54,"text":"所以後來是我來決定說"},{"start":6742.54,"end":6744.54,"text":"因為要在執行上要快"},{"start":6744.54,"end":6747.54,"text":"不能在一一去確認幾%幾%"},{"start":6747.54,"end":6750.54,"text":"幾%這專家的會有他的科學依據"},{"start":6750.54,"end":6754.54,"text":"但是執行上希望能夠盡快完成所有產品的下降"},{"start":6754.54,"end":6755.54,"text":"好我聽懂了"},{"start":6755.54,"end":6758.54,"text":"結論是江署長決定20%"},{"start":6758.54,"end":6760.54,"text":"你決定修改"},{"start":6760.54,"end":6761.54,"text":"你決定修改"},{"start":6761.54,"end":6764.54,"text":"因為他不知道實務上執行多困難"},{"start":6764.54,"end":6766.54,"text":"聽起來是這個意思不是嗎"},{"start":6766.54,"end":6769.54,"text":"我們是要加速盡快的時間內"},{"start":6769.54,"end":6772.54,"text":"然後更嚴格的確保這些安全"},{"start":6772.54,"end":6774.54,"text":"食品的安全性"},{"start":6774.54,"end":6776.54,"text":"所以先做出這樣的預防下降"},{"start":6776.54,"end":6778.54,"text":"所以表示20%速度不夠快"},{"start":6778.54,"end":6780.54,"text":"聽起來就是20%速度不夠快"},{"start":6780.54,"end":6782.54,"text":"誰要為這個決策負責"},{"start":6782.54,"end":6784.54,"text":"誰要為這個決策負責"},{"start":6784.54,"end":6786.54,"text":"誰為這個決策負責"},{"start":6786.54,"end":6788.54,"text":"這個當然我來負責這個決策"},{"start":6788.54,"end":6790.54,"text":"好那我們再看下一張"},{"start":6792.99,"end":6794.99,"text":"這個是你昨天講的"},{"start":6794.82,"end":6796.82,"text":"我們把聲音播出來"},{"start":6799.95,"end":6801.95,"text":"本篇題是一起致哀悟"},{"start":6801.95,"end":6802.95,"text":"這個是科學"},{"start":6802.95,"end":6804.95,"text":"但是在我們在這個科學基礎上去做的風險影響評估"},{"start":6804.95,"end":6805.95,"text":"所訂出的標準"},{"start":6805.95,"end":6808.95,"text":"那麼這個還必須考慮到世界的共通行原則"},{"start":6808.95,"end":6810.95,"text":"比如說在這個標準上我國是訂2PBB"},{"start":6810.95,"end":6811.95,"text":"但是中國是訂10PBB"},{"start":6811.95,"end":6813.95,"text":"韓國是2PBB跟我們一樣"},{"start":6813.95,"end":6815.95,"text":"日本美國是沒有訂定這個標準"},{"start":6815.95,"end":6816.95,"text":"歐盟是2PBB"},{"start":6816.95,"end":6819.95,"text":"所以當時候最早在這個食品安全的風險評估會議"},{"start":6819.95,"end":6820.95,"text":"裡面的專家討論"},{"start":6820.95,"end":6822.95,"text":"只在低層的油品去做下降原則"},{"start":6822.95,"end":6824.95,"text":"而沒有涉及到他的相關交通製品"},{"start":6824.95,"end":6826.95,"text":"他也同時考量到國際的一致性標準的問題"},{"start":6826.95,"end":6827.95,"text":"那麼舉例而言"},{"start":6827.95,"end":6830.95,"text":"當然我們這些商品是來自於未訂標準的國家的商品"},{"start":6830.95,"end":6831.95,"text":"是否可以進口"},{"start":6831.95,"end":6833.95,"text":"如果我們不斷的去擴大這個"},{"start":6833.95,"end":6834.95,"text":"跟國際不同標準的原則的話"},{"start":6834.95,"end":6836.95,"text":"那麼同時也會有國際貿易的一致情形"},{"start":6836.95,"end":6839.95,"text":"所以這個是在我們做這些決策的時候都必須同時考量"},{"start":6839.95,"end":6841.95,"text":"我們必須確保民眾的食品食用的安全"},{"start":6841.95,"end":6844.95,"text":"第一你覺得你聽得懂你在講什麼嗎"},{"start":6844.95,"end":6848.95,"text":"我們在告訴你國內有非法的致哀憂"},{"start":6848.95,"end":6850.95,"text":"到處謀動"},{"start":6850.95,"end":6853.95,"text":"你在那邊講說你的標準是因為怕外國的東西"},{"start":6853.95,"end":6855.95,"text":"沒有辦法輸入"},{"start":6855.95,"end":6856.95,"text":"這個誤解了"},{"start":6856.95,"end":6858.95,"text":"我要跟大家說明的"},{"start":6858.95,"end":6861.95,"text":"致哀物的規範"},{"start":6861.95,"end":6863.95,"text":"第幾級的致哀物"},{"start":6863.95,"end":6865.95,"text":"這個是由世界這個"},{"start":6865.95,"end":6868.95,"text":"IARRC所訂出來的"},{"start":6868.95,"end":6872.95,"text":"幾級的致哀物是來自於在動物實驗上"},{"start":6872.95,"end":6874.95,"text":"他的證據強度"},{"start":6874.95,"end":6877.95,"text":"不等於他的毒性容許量是多少"},{"start":6877.95,"end":6880.95,"text":"所以他雖然被定為一級致哀物"},{"start":6880.95,"end":6883.95,"text":"同屬一級致哀物的包含9"},{"start":6883.95,"end":6887.95,"text":"所以如何去定出後面他的毒性"},{"start":6887.95,"end":6890.95,"text":"或者是對致哀的強度有多少"},{"start":6890.95,"end":6892.95,"text":"那個是要在另外一個風險範圍"},{"start":6892.95,"end":6895.95,"text":"所以在訂這個標準的時候"},{"start":6895.95,"end":6897.95,"text":"我在講的是說"},{"start":6897.95,"end":6901.95,"text":"我們過去食藥署所訂出來第一層下架"},{"start":6901.95,"end":6903.95,"text":"這個是跟歐盟是切齊的"},{"start":6905.85,"end":6908.85,"text":"歐盟就是兩PPB的有品標準"},{"start":6908.85,"end":6910.85,"text":"下架原則就是第一層"},{"start":6910.85,"end":6913.85,"text":"所以當年所訂的是跟歐盟切齊"},{"start":6913.85,"end":6917.85,"text":"並沒有 並不是說去放寬"},{"start":6917.85,"end":6920.85,"text":"後來我們是在這個事件之後去加嚴"},{"start":6920.85,"end":6922.85,"text":"所以不是放寬"},{"start":6922.85,"end":6924.85,"text":"首先你剛在台上已經講得很清楚了"},{"start":6924.85,"end":6926.85,"text":"你說我是衛福部部長"},{"start":6926.85,"end":6928.85,"text":"我就是守護全民的健康"},{"start":6928.85,"end":6929.85,"text":"沒錯"},{"start":6929.85,"end":6932.85,"text":"你這個是經濟部長在講的"},{"start":6932.85,"end":6936.85,"text":"我只是在說明當年第一層下架"},{"start":6936.85,"end":6939.85,"text":"他是按照跟歐盟一樣的標準"},{"start":6939.85,"end":6942.85,"text":"我們這次這個事件其實是加嚴的"},{"start":6942.85,"end":6945.85,"text":"我們來說你那麼在意這一國是怎麼樣"},{"start":6945.85,"end":6946.85,"text":"那一國是怎麼樣"},{"start":6946.85,"end":6951.85,"text":"我們發現你昨天早上到下午緊急的"},{"start":6952.65,"end":6954.65,"text":"更換你的說法"},{"start":6954.65,"end":6959.65,"text":"你說有一批人本來是去日本好像口誤了"},{"start":6959.65,"end":6962.65,"text":"最後你才說查出來是去韓國"},{"start":6962.65,"end":6964.65,"text":"你什麼時候通知韓國的"},{"start":6964.65,"end":6966.65,"text":"這個我抱歉啦"},{"start":6966.65,"end":6968.65,"text":"昨天我的記憶有誤"},{"start":6968.65,"end":6970.65,"text":"所以去講成是日本"},{"start":6970.65,"end":6971.65,"text":"其實是韓國"},{"start":6971.65,"end":6973.65,"text":"那麼在這個之前就已經"},{"start":6973.65,"end":6976.65,"text":"廠商他就已經通知他的下游了"},{"start":6976.65,"end":6977.65,"text":"然後我們"},{"start":6977.65,"end":6979.65,"text":"廠商什麼時候通知韓國"},{"start":6980.21,"end":6981.21,"text":"這個日期查一下"},{"start":6983.11,"end":6985.11,"text":"你6月30號"},{"start":6985.11,"end":6988.11,"text":"我看到你的新聞稿是7月6號就知道"},{"start":6988.11,"end":6990.11,"text":"30個批號了"},{"start":6990.11,"end":6992.11,"text":"你7月6號的新聞稿說"},{"start":6992.11,"end":6994.11,"text":"我們知道有30個批號"},{"start":6994.11,"end":6997.11,"text":"如果你7月6號沒有通知韓國"},{"start":6997.11,"end":7000.11,"text":"那你就太對不起你剛剛那段影片了"},{"start":7000.11,"end":7002.11,"text":"因為你剛說美國是多少"},{"start":7002.11,"end":7004.11,"text":"日本是多少"},{"start":7004.11,"end":7006.11,"text":"這個其他國家是多少"},{"start":7006.11,"end":7007.11,"text":"我現在跟你說"},{"start":7007.11,"end":7009.11,"text":"韓國是2ppm"},{"start":7009.11,"end":7012.11,"text":"英佑兒是1ppm"},{"start":7012.11,"end":7014.11,"text":"如果你延遲通知韓國"},{"start":7014.11,"end":7016.11,"text":"韓國已經有英佑兒"},{"start":7016.11,"end":7017.11,"text":"現在已經"},{"start":7017.99,"end":7019.99,"text":"實用了這個有"},{"start":7019.99,"end":7021.99,"text":"這跟你剛的影片對得起來嗎"},{"start":7022.36,"end":7023.36,"text":"你剛的影片是說"},{"start":7023.36,"end":7025.36,"text":"我訂的是對齊歐盟"},{"start":7025.36,"end":7026.36,"text":"可是你輸出去韓國"},{"start":7026.36,"end":7028.36,"text":"韓國的標準就是2ppm"},{"start":7028.36,"end":7029.36,"text":"1ppm"},{"start":7029.36,"end":7032.36,"text":"我現在只想知道你7月6號就知道有30個批號"},{"start":7032.36,"end":7034.36,"text":"你什麼時候通知韓國的"},{"start":7035.67,"end":7039.67,"text":"跟委員說明這一批是沒有檢體"},{"start":7039.67,"end":7040.67,"text":"不是他超標"},{"start":7040.67,"end":7042.67,"text":"所以不用通知"},{"start":7042.67,"end":7043.67,"text":"所以他通知的"},{"start":7043.67,"end":7046.67,"text":"你怎麼要通知人家讓人家驗驗看吧"},{"start":7046.67,"end":7047.67,"text":"不是"},{"start":7047.67,"end":7050.67,"text":"所以他通知的是那個業者他要去驗"},{"start":7050.67,"end":7052.67,"text":"一樣他是自主檢驗的概念"},{"start":7052.67,"end":7054.67,"text":"在韓國也是如此"},{"start":7054.67,"end":7056.67,"text":"所以他自然拿到這個郵品"},{"start":7056.67,"end":7057.67,"text":"他要去檢驗的"},{"start":7057.67,"end":7060.67,"text":"所以他通知的是他的對口"},{"start":7060.67,"end":7062.67,"text":"他進口商那邊"},{"start":7062.67,"end":7066.67,"text":"並不是說我們發現有一批我們檢驗出"},{"start":7066.67,"end":7068.67,"text":"不合格的商品去通知"},{"start":7068.67,"end":7069.67,"text":"那個是不一樣"},{"start":7069.67,"end":7070.67,"text":"那你的意思是說"},{"start":7070.67,"end":7072.67,"text":"那個是因為我們拿不到檢體"},{"start":7072.67,"end":7074.67,"text":"都是業者通知"},{"start":7074.67,"end":7076.67,"text":"那你昨天幹嘛通知"},{"start":7076.67,"end":7078.67,"text":"你昨天有通知啊"},{"start":7078.67,"end":7079.67,"text":"你昨天也有通知啊"},{"start":7079.67,"end":7081.67,"text":"你說你的新聞稿寫"},{"start":7081.67,"end":7083.67,"text":"你昨天通知了韓國食藥署啊"},{"start":7083.67,"end":7086.67,"text":"我們沒有辦法拿到這個檢體"},{"start":7086.67,"end":7087.67,"text":"所以請他們參考"},{"start":7087.67,"end":7088.67,"text":"只是這樣而已"},{"start":7088.67,"end":7091.67,"text":"參考說我們沒有拿到這個檢體"},{"start":7091.67,"end":7093.67,"text":"你幾號通知 6號"},{"start":7093.67,"end":7094.67,"text":"你通知韓國"},{"start":7094.67,"end":7096.67,"text":"還是叫下面的業者自己通知"},{"start":7096.67,"end":7097.67,"text":"業者是先有通知"},{"start":7097.67,"end":7099.67,"text":"那個時間我們再去看一下"},{"start":7099.67,"end":7101.67,"text":"有 你剛剛叫他拿文件上來查"},{"start":7101.67,"end":7103.67,"text":"你到現在還沒告訴我幾號通知的"},{"start":7104.27,"end":7105.27,"text":"剛不是有一個"},{"start":7105.27,"end":7106.27,"text":"再確認一下吧"},{"start":7106.27,"end":7107.27,"text":"剛有一個官員"},{"start":7107.27,"end":7109.27,"text":"拿著文件要告訴我幾號通知韓國的"},{"start":7112.69,"end":7113.69,"text":"主席"},{"start":7114.23,"end":7115.23,"text":"那就查一下吧"},{"start":7117.05,"end":7118.05,"text":"時間暫停"},{"start":7118.05,"end":7119.05,"text":"他剛本來走到這邊了"},{"start":7120.47,"end":7121.47,"text":"好 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時間繼續"},{"start":7165.35,"end":7166.35,"text":"好"},{"start":7169.48,"end":7171.48,"text":"這邊你上禮拜也是沒有回答我"},{"start":7173.42,"end":7175.42,"text":"上禮拜在這邊我問你說"},{"start":7175.42,"end":7176.42,"text":"你預期你回收多少"},{"start":7176.42,"end":7178.42,"text":"我們現在就回收大概30%"},{"start":7179.74,"end":7181.74,"text":"你希望達到多少"},{"start":7181.74,"end":7183.74,"text":"你確認多少回收不回來了"},{"start":7183.74,"end":7185.74,"text":"你不講話 你沒講"},{"start":7185.74,"end":7186.74,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":7186.74,"end":7189.74,"text":"另外一個國防外交委員會的委員問出來了"},{"start":7189.74,"end":7191.74,"text":"他說國軍已經吃掉50幾桶"},{"start":7192.54,"end":7196.54,"text":"你不用知道你KPI應該要做到多少"},{"start":7196.54,"end":7199.54,"text":"有哪一些你應該誠實的跟人民交代"},{"start":7199.54,"end":7201.54,"text":"回收不回來了嗎"},{"start":7201.54,"end":7203.54,"text":"你這樣不是跟環境部一樣嗎"},{"start":7203.54,"end":7205.54,"text":"環境部說光電板 風災丸"},{"start":7205.54,"end":7206.54,"text":"偏偏有序號"},{"start":7206.54,"end":7207.54,"text":"全部回收回來"},{"start":7207.54,"end":7210.54,"text":"最後環境部跟經濟部一起出來說"},{"start":7210.54,"end":7211.54,"text":"偏偏收不回來"},{"start":7211.54,"end":7213.54,"text":"然後現在獨有也是啊"},{"start":7213.54,"end":7215.54,"text":"你統統找不回來"},{"start":7215.54,"end":7217.54,"text":"你不誠實面對大家"},{"start":7219.26,"end":7221.26,"text":"你們連一個儀表板都沒有"},{"start":7221.26,"end":7224.26,"text":"你連外府部官網一個儀表板都沒有"},{"start":7224.26,"end":7225.26,"text":"我今天回收多少了"},{"start":7225.26,"end":7228.26,"text":"然後告訴大家說多少真的被吃掉了"},{"start":7228.26,"end":7231.26,"text":"還有其他委員會一個一個委員去問"},{"start":7233.28,"end":7235.28,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":7235.28,"end":7239.28,"text":"這個事件是因為廠商延遲通報那麼久"},{"start":7239.28,"end":7242.28,"text":"所以造成我們要追回的時效"},{"start":7242.56,"end":7244.56,"text":"嚴重的延遲"},{"start":7244.56,"end":7245.56,"text":"這個是廠商"},{"start":7245.56,"end":7248.56,"text":"這不良的廠商隱匿通報"},{"start":7248.56,"end":7250.56,"text":"那我們沒有辦法及時去回收"},{"start":7250.56,"end":7254.56,"text":"所以我們所回收都已經公佈"},{"start":7254.56,"end":7256.56,"text":"多少的量我們都公佈"},{"start":7256.56,"end":7258.56,"text":"所以提起來你覺得有一點悲觀"},{"start":7258.56,"end":7260.56,"text":"都是因為廠商"},{"start":7260.56,"end":7264.56,"text":"所以現在基層回收不回來了"},{"start":7264.56,"end":7265.56,"text":"事實就是如此"},{"start":7265.56,"end":7267.56,"text":"如果能夠早一點通報"},{"start":7267.56,"end":7269.56,"text":"你跟全國人民說嘛"},{"start":7269.56,"end":7271.56,"text":"你跟全國人民說"},{"start":7271.56,"end":7273.56,"text":"你就說我是守護食安的衛福部部長"},{"start":7273.56,"end":7276.56,"text":"但是我必須很遺憾的告訴大家說"},{"start":7276.56,"end":7277.56,"text":"七成回收不回來了"},{"start":7277.56,"end":7279.56,"text":"我現在極限就是回收三成"},{"start":7279.56,"end":7280.56,"text":"是這個意思嗎"},{"start":7280.56,"end":7283.56,"text":"現在的事實就是延遲通報"},{"start":7283.56,"end":7287.56,"text":"讓主管機關無法及時的介入去回收"},{"start":7287.56,"end":7289.56,"text":"你一直說他延遲通報"},{"start":7289.56,"end":7292.56,"text":"然後你7月21日成立調查小組"},{"start":7292.56,"end":7294.56,"text":"你有多在乎"},{"start":7294.56,"end":7295.56,"text":"不是7月21日的調查"},{"start":7295.56,"end":7296.56,"text":"你是多在乎"},{"start":7296.56,"end":7298.56,"text":"7月21日是進場去做最後的確認"},{"start":7298.56,"end":7301.56,"text":"我們的所有的資料的比對"},{"start":7301.56,"end":7303.56,"text":"然後對於我們這一份報告"},{"start":7303.56,"end":7304.56,"text":"做最後的確認"},{"start":7304.56,"end":7306.56,"text":"因為我們要完成這一份"},{"start":7306.56,"end":7309.56,"text":"這個禮拜就會完成這個調查報告"},{"start":7309.56,"end":7312.56,"text":"那你很簡單的告訴大家"},{"start":7312.56,"end":7314.56,"text":"你覺得有幾%你已經放棄了"},{"start":7316.02,"end":7319.02,"text":"目前能夠回收到的就是這個數量"},{"start":7320.22,"end":7321.22,"text":"極限了"},{"start":7321.22,"end":7323.22,"text":"就是我們公布的這個數量"},{"start":7323.22,"end":7325.22,"text":"好在這邊你剛說的很清楚"},{"start":7325.22,"end":7329.22,"text":"7月21日你只是進場去確認所有的事情"},{"start":7329.22,"end":7331.22,"text":"我跟你說你們有幾種說法了"},{"start":7331.22,"end":7334.22,"text":"你們有人說黃豆有問題"},{"start":7334.22,"end":7336.22,"text":"有人說黃豆跟製程有問題"},{"start":7336.22,"end":7339.22,"text":"舒巧慧說製程有問題"},{"start":7339.22,"end":7341.22,"text":"林濟怡說原料製程有問題"},{"start":7341.22,"end":7343.22,"text":"石重良說檢體被掉包了"},{"start":7343.22,"end":7346.22,"text":"你現在到底可以全國人民只關心"},{"start":7347.56,"end":7349.56,"text":"這件事怎麼發生的你釐清了嗎"},{"start":7350.41,"end":7352.41,"text":"所有的事件都是一連串"},{"start":7353.35,"end":7354.35,"text":"都有關聯性的"},{"start":7354.35,"end":7356.35,"text":"不能說就是一個原因"},{"start":7356.35,"end":7359.35,"text":"如果事情這麼單純就好解決"},{"start":7359.35,"end":7361.35,"text":"當然它有它的複雜度"},{"start":7361.35,"end":7364.35,"text":"再加上它的檢體不確實"},{"start":7364.35,"end":7367.35,"text":"我們一開始檢驗的它的殘留檢體"},{"start":7367.35,"end":7369.35,"text":"全部都是合格的"},{"start":7369.35,"end":7373.35,"text":"這個完全跟事實最後的事實完全是被離的"},{"start":7373.35,"end":7374.35,"text":"因為昨天"},{"start":7374.35,"end":7376.35,"text":"所以才會增加我們在"},{"start":7376.94,"end":7379.94,"text":"確認這個調查事件當的難度"},{"start":7379.94,"end":7381.94,"text":"所以我們才會花了很多的時間"},{"start":7381.94,"end":7383.94,"text":"你昨天的新聞稿是"},{"start":7383.94,"end":7385.94,"text":"你昨天的新聞稿寫說孔"},{"start":7385.94,"end":7388.94,"text":"就是你懷疑是因為黃豆的這個"},{"start":7391.2,"end":7392.2,"text":"好我們姑且不論"},{"start":7392.2,"end":7395.2,"text":"6月30號到7月28號"},{"start":7395.2,"end":7397.2,"text":"你現在有辦法告訴我們7月28號"},{"start":7397.2,"end":7399.2,"text":"你終於可以知道結果了嗎"},{"start":7399.2,"end":7401.2,"text":"因為你們說21號進場"},{"start":7401.2,"end":7403.2,"text":"28號就有完整的調查報告"},{"start":7403.2,"end":7405.2,"text":"這個一般內就可以確認這個調查報告"},{"start":7405.2,"end":7410.2,"text":"就是我們看到很多的這個不合標準的地方"},{"start":7410.2,"end":7413.2,"text":"但是最後要由專家來確認"},{"start":7413.2,"end":7415.2,"text":"它的因果關聯性"},{"start":7415.2,"end":7418.2,"text":"所以你28號終於會告訴大家為什麼了"},{"start":7418.2,"end":7420.2,"text":"28號會告訴大家為什麼"},{"start":7420.2,"end":7423.2,"text":"昨天已經進場去做確認"},{"start":7423.2,"end":7428.2,"text":"那現在這個專家小組正在撰寫這一份最後的這個調查報告"},{"start":7428.2,"end":7430.2,"text":"28號以前會看到"},{"start":7430.2,"end":7432.2,"text":"好比起以前"},{"start":7432.54,"end":7436.54,"text":"蔡其昌啦陳其邁啦民進黨官網啊"},{"start":7436.54,"end":7438.54,"text":"以前叫行政院長下台的這些人啊"},{"start":7440.13,"end":74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7.18,"end":7659.18,"text":"都在上任後做完"},{"start":7659.18,"end":7661.18,"text":"我們現在還會落到這種地步嗎"},{"start":7661.75,"end":7663.75,"text":"好今天就問到這樣謝謝"},{"start":7664.47,"end":7666.47,"text":"謝謝曾經過我的質詢"},{"start":7666.98,"end":7668.98,"text":"宣告待會再王一鳴委員"},{"start":7668.98,"end":7670.98,"text":"詢答後休息10分鐘"},{"start":7670.98,"end":7672.98,"text":"現在請邱霍祐委員質詢"},{"start":7684.92,"end":7686.92,"text":"主席還有各位委員"},{"start":7686.92,"end":7688.92,"text":"各位政府部門同仁大家好"},{"start":7688.92,"end":7690.92,"text":"有請部長石部長"},{"start":7690.92,"end":7694.92,"text":"有請江署長"},{"start":7694.92,"end":7696.92,"text":"好委員早"},{"start":7699.76,"end":7703.76,"text":"我今天想跟兩位質詢三件事"},{"start":7703.76,"end":7705.76,"text":"第一件事是毒果"},{"start":7705.76,"end":7707.76,"text":"第二件事毒友"},{"start":7707.76,"end":7709.76,"text":"第三件事毒蛇"},{"start":7709.76,"end":7711.76,"text":"我們從這三個事件"},{"start":7711.76,"end":7713.76,"text":"可以看到衛福部的螺絲"},{"start":7713.76,"end":7715.76,"text":"真的是掉滿地"},{"start":7717.26,"end":7719.26,"text":"第一個問題"},{"start":7719.26,"end":7721.26,"text":"就是毒果的問題"},{"start":7721.26,"end":7723.26,"text":"那毒果呢"},{"start":7723.26,"end":7725.26,"text":"雖然你們聽到毒蘋果三個字"},{"start":7725.26,"end":7727.26,"text":"不喜歡不認同"},{"start":7727.26,"end":7729.26,"text":"但是我必須說"},{"start":7729.26,"end":7731.26,"text":"在人民的主觀感受裡面"},{"start":7731.26,"end":7733.26,"text":"雖然它不是這個分譜零"},{"start":7733.26,"end":7735.26,"text":"它是分譜零"},{"start":7735.26,"end":7737.26,"text":"但是你本來從0.5的ppm提升到6倍"},{"start":7737.26,"end":7739.26,"text":"也就是3"},{"start":7739.26,"end":7741.26,"text":"這2.5ppm的差距"},{"start":7741.26,"end":7743.26,"text":"在人民的感受裡頭"},{"start":7743.26,"end":7745.26,"text":"它就是毒"},{"start":7744.19,"end":7746.19,"text":"就是我們要再多吃一點毒"},{"start":7746.19,"end":7748.19,"text":"就是這種感受"},{"start":7748.19,"end":7750.19,"text":"所以我覺得你們不要否認"},{"start":7750.19,"end":7752.19,"text":"那是毒蘋果"},{"start":7752.19,"end":7754.19,"text":"因為在人民的感受裡頭"},{"start":7754.19,"end":7756.19,"text":"多吃農藥的殘留"},{"start":7756.19,"end":7758.19,"text":"其實對他們來說就是多吃毒"},{"start":7758.19,"end":7760.19,"text":"那現在想跟您請教"},{"start":7761.01,"end":7763.01,"text":"草莓呢"},{"start":7763.01,"end":7765.01,"text":"它的ppm這次也放寬了"},{"start":7765.01,"end":7767.01,"text":"從1放寬到2"},{"start":7767.01,"end":7769.01,"text":"日本對於蘋果的農藥殘留"},{"start":7769.01,"end":7771.01,"text":"它訂的標準也是2"},{"start":7771.01,"end":7773.01,"text":"那為什麼我們如果要放寬"},{"start":7773.01,"end":7775.01,"text":"我們不能夠對齊2"},{"start":7775.01,"end":7777.01,"text":"我們確實要放寬3"},{"start":7777.01,"end":7779.01,"text":"那有人在懷疑"},{"start":7779.01,"end":7781.01,"text":"因為美國是5"},{"start":7781.01,"end":7783.01,"text":"那如果你放寬為3"},{"start":7783.01,"end":7785.01,"text":"雖然美國的蘋果不會全部進來"},{"start":7785.01,"end":7787.01,"text":"但是可以讓大部分的蘋果進來"},{"start":7787.01,"end":7789.01,"text":"那不知道部長這邊怎麼回應"},{"start":7789.01,"end":7791.01,"text":"訂農藥的mr"},{"start":7791.01,"end":7793.01,"text":"當然我們都希望"},{"start":7793.01,"end":7795.01,"text":"大家都不要用農藥"},{"start":7795.01,"end":7797.01,"text":"這是最好"},{"start":7797.01,"end":7799.01,"text":"但是在現實的世界裡面"},{"start":7799.01,"end":7801.01,"text":"為了糧食的供應"},{"start":7801.01,"end":7803.01,"text":"它有它的絕對的必要"},{"start":7803.01,"end":7805.01,"text":"所以我們現在糧食有供應不足"},{"start":7805.01,"end":7807.01,"text":"所以我們才可以確定農藥的mr"},{"start":7807.01,"end":7809.01,"text":"那在訂定的過程當中"},{"start":7809.01,"end":7811.01,"text":"當然我們是會"},{"start":7811.01,"end":7813.01,"text":"參考每一個"},{"start":7813.01,"end":7815.01,"text":"施作的情形"},{"start":7815.01,"end":7817.01,"text":"每一類農作物的施作"},{"start":7817.01,"end":7819.01,"text":"你也施作是不一樣的"},{"start":7819.01,"end":7821.01,"text":"所以他會按照他的施作的情形"},{"start":7821.01,"end":7823.01,"text":"去訂定"},{"start":7823.01,"end":7825.01,"text":"我們不會直接說"},{"start":7825.01,"end":7827.01,"text":"去對齊哪一個國家"},{"start":7827.01,"end":7829.01,"text":"因為我在想"},{"start":7829.01,"end":7831.01,"text":"韓國是3ppm"},{"start":7831.01,"end":7833.01,"text":"美國是1ppm"},{"start":7833.01,"end":7835.01,"text":"我們沒有決定"},{"start":7835.01,"end":7837.01,"text":"去對齊哪一個"},{"start":7837.01,"end":7839.01,"text":"這個都是我們"},{"start":7839.01,"end":7841.01,"text":"通過一定的程序"},{"start":7841.01,"end":7843.01,"text":"為什麼我們要比別人高"},{"start":7843.01,"end":7845.01,"text":"看一下你昨天接受採訪是怎麼說的"},{"start":7845.01,"end":7847.01,"text":"人家問你"},{"start":7847.01,"end":7849.01,"text":"本評比的標準是不是要調整"},{"start":7849.01,"end":7851.01,"text":"你說關於食安的標準"},{"start":7851.01,"end":7853.01,"text":"當然是越高越好"},{"start":7853.01,"end":7855.01,"text":"當然是越高越好"},{"start":7855.01,"end":7857.01,"text":"人民的感受裡頭就是食安的標準越高越好"},{"start":7857.01,"end":7859.01,"text":"沒有人想要越低越好"},{"start":7859.01,"end":7861.01,"text":"那當然目前就是0.5"},{"start":7861.01,"end":7863.01,"text":"但是你反其道而行"},{"start":7863.01,"end":7865.01,"text":"你就是讓我們的食安標準數字往上提升"},{"start":7865.01,"end":7867.01,"text":"換個角度講就是食安的標準"},{"start":7867.01,"end":7869.01,"text":"越來越低"},{"start":7869.01,"end":7871.01,"text":"這完全跟你昨天講的話背道而馳"},{"start":7871.01,"end":7873.01,"text":"現在就是0.5"},{"start":7873.01,"end":7875.01,"text":"所以現在是國際標準漸行失奇"},{"start":7875.01,"end":7877.01,"text":"但是現在問題是你也沒有對準"},{"start":7877.01,"end":7879.01,"text":"那也沒有一定要對準"},{"start":7879.01,"end":7881.01,"text":"但是你今天你的數字要給人民一個說法"},{"start":7881.01,"end":7883.01,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":7883.01,"end":7885.01,"text":"你這個提高到3ppm"},{"start":7885.01,"end":7887.01,"text":"對人民的健康"},{"start":7887.01,"end":7889.01,"text":"我知道你們的說法健康無虞"},{"start":7889.01,"end":7891.01,"text":"但是人民所關心的"},{"start":7891.01,"end":7893.01,"text":"消基會所關心的不是第一時間吃進去"},{"start":7893.01,"end":7895.01,"text":"會不會中毒"},{"start":7895.01,"end":7897.01,"text":"是日積月累的農藥的殘留量"},{"start":7897.01,"end":7899.01,"text":"吃了蘋果"},{"start":7899.01,"end":7901.01,"text":"吃了草莓吃了梨子"},{"start":7901.01,"end":7903.01,"text":"吃了來日積月累"},{"start":7903.01,"end":7905.01,"text":"它可能會造成一個累積的危害效果"},{"start":7905.01,"end":7907.01,"text":"我們擔心的是這一個"},{"start":7907.3,"end":7909.3,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":7909.3,"end":7911.3,"text":"因為所有的這個都還有經過人體的代謝"},{"start":7911.3,"end":7913.3,"text":"所以到底是"},{"start":7913.3,"end":7915.3,"text":"那就是像"},{"start":7915.3,"end":7917.3,"text":"所以在這個評估的時候"},{"start":7917.3,"end":7919.3,"text":"多喝水就好了"},{"start":7919.3,"end":7921.3,"text":"那如果多喝水"},{"start":7921.3,"end":7923.3,"text":"那所有的標準都不用訂了嗎"},{"start":7923.3,"end":7925.3,"text":"政府也不用期待他保管"},{"start":7925.3,"end":7927.3,"text":"只要人民來多喝水就可以了"},{"start":7927.3,"end":7929.3,"text":"那現在我再反映一下"},{"start":7929.3,"end":7931.3,"text":"消基會跟人民的行程"},{"start":7931.3,"end":7933.3,"text":"雖然這個ppm"},{"start":7933.3,"end":7935.3,"text":"這個從0.5提升到3"},{"start":7935.3,"end":7937.3,"text":"是一個毒性的標準"},{"start":7937.3,"end":7939.3,"text":"但是它是一個食安的標準"},{"start":7939.3,"end":7941.3,"text":"你每開放一次就是告訴人們"},{"start":7941.3,"end":7943.3,"text":"我們的政府容忍"},{"start":7943.3,"end":7945.3,"text":"人體能夠多增加一點農藥的殘留量"},{"start":7945.3,"end":7947.3,"text":"我們的政府都無所謂"},{"start":7947.3,"end":7949.3,"text":"都不關心"},{"start":7949.3,"end":7951.3,"text":"這個從過去很長期的話"},{"start":7951.3,"end":7953.3,"text":"這個標準的設立都是長期"},{"start":7953.3,"end":7955.3,"text":"在滾動修正的"},{"start":7955.3,"end":7957.3,"text":"對那你現在"},{"start":7957.3,"end":7959.3,"text":"提升到這種程度"},{"start":7959.3,"end":7961.3,"text":"你有沒有跟公眾說明"},{"start":7961.3,"end":7963.3,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":7963.3,"end":7965.3,"text":"你今天"},{"start":7965.3,"end":7967.3,"text":"也有說113年到現在"},{"start":7967.3,"end":7969.3,"text":"所以我們都是依據"},{"start":7969.3,"end":7971.3,"text":"需求然後再經過一定的程序"},{"start":7971.3,"end":7973.3,"text":"經過專家委員的"},{"start":7973.3,"end":7975.3,"text":"討論之後"},{"start":7975.3,"end":7977.3,"text":"你只告訴大家三言良語"},{"start":7977.3,"end":7979.3,"text":"我們沒有看到中間的科學數據"},{"start":7979.3,"end":7981.3,"text":"我們可以把這個科學數據提供給委員"},{"start":7981.3,"end":7983.3,"text":"提供給我你不要提供給我"},{"start":7983.3,"end":7985.3,"text":"你要提供給人民你也不要只對我說明"},{"start":7985.3,"end":7987.3,"text":"你要提供給全人民"},{"start":7987.3,"end":7989.3,"text":"你這個在今年4月21號"},{"start":7989.3,"end":7991.3,"text":"就公告了"},{"start":7991.3,"end":7993.3,"text":"所以你的說明足夠我們今天不會站在這邊直訊"},{"start":7993.3,"end":7995.3,"text":"不會今天大家有提案"},{"start":7995.3,"end":7997.3,"text":"都是東北的提案出來"},{"start":7997.3,"end":7999.3,"text":"你的規則有出來"},{"start":7999.3,"end":8001.3,"text":"但是我們沒有看到理由"},{"start":8001.3,"end":8003.3,"text":"那大家呢"},{"start":8003.3,"end":8005.3,"text":"其實你沒有說明大家"},{"start":8005.3,"end":8007.3,"text":"就會懷疑說是美國因素"},{"start":8007.3,"end":8009.3,"text":"那蕭基惠呢我想他"},{"start":8009.3,"end":8011.3,"text":"非常的有這個權威性"},{"start":8011.3,"end":8013.3,"text":"他說只要美國政府"},{"start":8013.3,"end":8015.3,"text":"提出的我們政府就會配合"},{"start":8015.3,"end":8017.3,"text":"而且是給五毛要五毛給一塊"},{"start":8017.3,"end":8019.3,"text":"那如果你沒有詳細的說明"},{"start":8019.3,"end":8021.3,"text":"其實就很像了"},{"start":8021.3,"end":8023.3,"text":"這個完全是沒有根據的說法"},{"start":8023.3,"end":8025.3,"text":"我們沒有說美國的要求"},{"start":8025.3,"end":8027.3,"text":"就是五毛給一塊"},{"start":8027.3,"end":8029.3,"text":"這個完全是沒有根據的說法"},{"start":8029.3,"end":8031.3,"text":"因為你沒有說明大家就為這樣子去懷疑"},{"start":8031.3,"end":8033.3,"text":"好來那我現在"},{"start":8033.3,"end":8035.3,"text":"請教一件事就是說"},{"start":8035.3,"end":8037.3,"text":"為什麼0.5要提高大幅的提高"},{"start":8037.3,"end":8039.3,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":8039.87,"end":8041.87,"text":"你不要跟我講說什麼"},{"start":8041.87,"end":8043.87,"text":"111年有提"},{"start":8043.87,"end":8045.87,"text":"有提出申請你們做了三年的調查"},{"start":8045.87,"end":8047.87,"text":"過去在蘋果放在"},{"start":8047.87,"end":8049.87,"text":"離國類的大類"},{"start":8049.87,"end":8051.87,"text":"這些都是一個犯犯偷向的說辭"},{"start":8051.87,"end":8053.87,"text":"蘋果獨立列向"},{"start":8053.87,"end":8055.87,"text":"然後經過風險評估"},{"start":8055.87,"end":8057.87,"text":"經過我們的這個專家會議"},{"start":8057.87,"end":8059.87,"text":"討論之後所訂定的啦"},{"start":8059.87,"end":8061.87,"text":"好那你為什麼不在4月21號"},{"start":8061.87,"end":8063.87,"text":"公告的同時把我們"},{"start":8063.87,"end":8065.87,"text":"剛蕭基惠的四大訴求"},{"start":8065.87,"end":8067.87,"text":"一併的說明"},{"start":8067.87,"end":8069.87,"text":"你為什麼不在4月21號"},{"start":8069.87,"end":8071.87,"text":"公告的時候"},{"start":8071.87,"end":8073.87,"text":"一併把這些我們所要求的"},{"start":8073.87,"end":8075.87,"text":"科學依據做說明"},{"start":8075.87,"end":8077.87,"text":"而是我們理髮委員已經站在那邊"},{"start":8077.87,"end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真的不知道你告訴我你的答案"},{"start":8479.67,"end":8481.67,"text":"就是我不知道"},{"start":8482.35,"end":8484.35,"text":"你不知道好那我現在告訴你"},{"start":8484.35,"end":8488.35,"text":"我覺得院長關愛的眼神"},{"start":8488.35,"end":8490.35,"text":"我是確定有飄向江志剛署長"},{"start":8490.35,"end":8494.35,"text":"因為有在關心他眼中有沒有血絲"},{"start":8494.35,"end":8496.35,"text":"那你的血絲到目前為止"},{"start":8496.35,"end":8498.35,"text":"有被部長院長關心過嗎"},{"start":8500.02,"end":8502.02,"text":"他有慰問過你這陣子的辛勞嗎"},{"start":8502.02,"end":8504.02,"text":"我的眼睛目前都"},{"start":8504.02,"end":8506.02,"text":"維持的還好"},{"start":8506.02,"end":8508.02,"text":"但是有沒有關心到辛勞"},{"start":8508.02,"end":8510.02,"text":"辛勞一定有的吧你不會說你處理這個毒藥案"},{"start":8510.02,"end":8512.02,"text":"處理到23天"},{"start":8512.02,"end":8514.02,"text":"到現在都還沒有辛勞他有慰問你的辛勞嗎"},{"start":8514.02,"end":8516.02,"text":"我謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":8516.02,"end":8518.02,"text":"謝謝我的關心好那反正呢"},{"start":8518.02,"end":8520.02,"text":"你覺得院長會不會處理你"},{"start":8520.02,"end":8522.02,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":8522.94,"end":8524.94,"text":"他會不會處理你呢"},{"start":8524.94,"end":8526.94,"text":"這是我們全民睜大眼睛要看的"},{"start":8526.94,"end":8528.94,"text":"因為你20%當經費委員質詢你的"},{"start":8528.94,"end":8530.94,"text":"到現在還說不清楚我接著他繼續問"},{"start":8530.94,"end":8532.94,"text":"請問20%學者"},{"start":8532.94,"end":8534.94,"text":"我們孤影其名也許有暴露學者"},{"start":8534.94,"end":8536.94,"text":"姓名的為難度"},{"start":8536.94,"end":8538.94,"text":"好我們也不要為難學者"},{"start":8538.94,"end":8540.94,"text":"請問幾個學者"},{"start":8540.94,"end":8542.94,"text":"你們當天找了幾個學者"},{"start":8542.94,"end":8544.94,"text":"來把那20%我們講幾個就好了"},{"start":8544.94,"end":8546.94,"text":"幾個總能揭露吧"},{"start":8546.94,"end":8548.94,"text":"姓名不揭露幾個總能揭露吧"},{"start":8550.9,"end":8552.9,"text":"如果你連幾個都不敢揭露"},{"start":8552.9,"end":8554.9,"text":"可以下台了啦不用院長"},{"start":8554.9,"end":8556.9,"text":"處理都可以自動下台了"},{"start":8556.9,"end":8558.9,"text":"來幾個我今天就要問幾個"},{"start":8558.9,"end":8560.9,"text":"你講三個就三個"},{"start":8560.9,"end":8562.9,"text":"如果沒有這件事"},{"start":8562.9,"end":8564.9,"text":"那你今天就是虛構"},{"start":8564.9,"end":8566.9,"text":"你虛構的話你就是得下台"},{"start":8566.9,"end":8568.9,"text":"因為你完全經不起政治人物的道德檢驗"},{"start":8568.9,"end":8570.9,"text":"來幾個幾個學者"},{"start":8570.9,"end":8572.9,"text":"孤影其名我們不講人名幾個"},{"start":8573.86,"end":8575.86,"text":"我們在邀請有現場出席的學者"},{"start":8575.86,"end":8577.86,"text":"對"},{"start":8577.86,"end":8579.86,"text":"以及線上出席的學者"},{"start":8580.38,"end":8582.38,"text":"印象中是第一"},{"start":8582.38,"end":8584.38,"text":"總共有七位"},{"start":8584.38,"end":8586.38,"text":"總共七位嘛"},{"start":8586.38,"end":8588.38,"text":"背景"},{"start":8588.38,"end":8590.38,"text":"沒問題背景"},{"start":8590.38,"end":8592.38,"text":"我們孤影其名你今天20%的"},{"start":8592.38,"end":8594.38,"text":"有品要留向人名"},{"start":8594.38,"end":8596.38,"text":"這中間要有專業我們要評估他有沒有"},{"start":8596.38,"end":8598.38,"text":"專業性孤影其名"},{"start":8598.38,"end":8600.38,"text":"七個然後專家背景"},{"start":8600.38,"end":8602.38,"text":"都包含了"},{"start":8602.38,"end":8604.38,"text":"一些有品製程"},{"start":8604.38,"end":8606.38,"text":"然後食品安全風險"},{"start":8606.38,"end":8608.38,"text":"評估"},{"start":8608.38,"end":8610.38,"text":"等等面向都都"},{"start":8610.38,"end":8612.38,"text":"含在裡面其實各方面的"},{"start":8612.38,"end":8614.38,"text":"其實你這三個是幾個人"},{"start":8614.38,"end":8616.38,"text":"你這三個製程獨立"},{"start":8616.38,"end":8618.38,"text":"這個是幾個人不會一個人"},{"start":8618.38,"end":8620.38,"text":"其他六個人不是專業"},{"start":8620.38,"end":8622.38,"text":"不是這個專業了吧"},{"start":8622.38,"end":8624.38,"text":"所以其實各個專業部分我們可以跟委員再進一步的完整的說明"},{"start":8624.38,"end":8626.38,"text":"沒有你現在就可以說明"},{"start":8626.38,"end":8628.38,"text":"你不要私下跟我說明這是大家關心的"},{"start":8628.38,"end":8630.38,"text":"因為20%從7月4號炒到現在"},{"start":8630.38,"end":8632.38,"text":"你的七個委員"},{"start":8632.38,"end":8634.38,"text":"請問你說的你剛講什麼"},{"start":8634.38,"end":8636.38,"text":"獨立製程還有一個"},{"start":8636.38,"end":8638.38,"text":"你這三個是三合一嗎"},{"start":8638.38,"end":8640.38,"text":"三合一在一個學者身上嗎"},{"start":8640.38,"end":8642.38,"text":"其他六個學者是什麼背景"},{"start":8643.12,"end":8645.12,"text":"其他六個學者是什麼背景"},{"start":8645.12,"end":8647.12,"text":"我想相關於全面性的風險評估的背景"},{"start":8647.12,"end":8649.12,"text":"他們都擁有"},{"start":8648.67,"end":8650.67,"text":"那你就告訴我嘛"},{"start":8650.67,"end":8652.67,"text":"護理嘛醫療嘛法規嘛"},{"start":8652.67,"end":8654.67,"text":"生物科技嘛"},{"start":8654.67,"end":8656.67,"text":"不能提供嘛現在連專家學者的背景"},{"start":8656.67,"end":8658.67,"text":"都不能提供嘛"},{"start":8658.67,"end":8660.67,"text":"我們已經不想為難學者了"},{"start":8660.67,"end":8662.67,"text":"因為學者所給的專業建議"},{"start":8662.67,"end":8664.67,"text":"其實最後還是要交給衛福部的把關"},{"start":8664.67,"end":8666.67,"text":"我們不想為難學者我們只是想知道幾個"},{"start":8666.67,"end":8668.67,"text":"我們只是想知道他們專業背景"},{"start":8668.67,"end":8670.67,"text":"市售人民健康的這個"},{"start":8670.67,"end":8672.67,"text":"毒油事件我們是不是交給"},{"start":8672.67,"end":8674.67,"text":"專業人員來做把關"},{"start":8674.67,"end":8676.67,"text":"所以七個背景是什麼"},{"start":8676.97,"end":8678.97,"text":"第一個背景是什麼它是什麼系的"},{"start":8680.78,"end":8682.78,"text":"它是什麼系的"},{"start":8682.78,"end":8684.78,"text":"教授"},{"start":8684.28,"end":8686.28,"text":"或者是什麼專家"},{"start":8686.28,"end":8688.28,"text":"一個整體的說明"},{"start":8688.28,"end":8690.28,"text":"整個食品專業"},{"start":8690.28,"end":8692.28,"text":"背景的"},{"start":8692.28,"end":8694.28,"text":"有兩位"},{"start":8694.28,"end":8696.28,"text":"你說什麼學"},{"start":8696.28,"end":8698.28,"text":"獨立學"},{"start":8698.28,"end":8700.28,"text":"食品科學的"},{"start":8700.28,"end":8702.28,"text":"有兩位"},{"start":8702.28,"end":8704.28,"text":"有品加工的有兩位"},{"start":8704.28,"end":8706.28,"text":"其實他們有很多內涵的部分"},{"start":8706.28,"end":8708.28,"text":"是重疊的都有他們的專業存在"},{"start":8708.28,"end":8710.28,"text":"好啊"},{"start":8710.28,"end":8712.28,"text":"是我們值得信任的"},{"start":8712.28,"end":8714.28,"text":"所以就是七個嘛"},{"start":8714.28,"end":8716.28,"text":"然後還有七個人都各自有這些背景嘛"},{"start":8716.78,"end":8718.78,"text":"七個人都有這些背景嘛"},{"start":8719.02,"end":8721.02,"text":"七個都有這些背景嘛"},{"start":8721.02,"end":8723.02,"text":"是嘛"},{"start":8723.02,"end":8725.02,"text":"七個人就是有這相關的背景嘛"},{"start":8725.02,"end":8727.02,"text":"好那沒有關係反正有一天"},{"start":8727.02,"end":8729.02,"text":"名單曝光了我們就拿今天你的"},{"start":8729.02,"end":8731.02,"text":"回答來檢視是不是由專業人員"},{"start":8731.02,"end":8733.02,"text":"來替我們把關"},{"start":8733.02,"end":8735.02,"text":"來吳征說又不是我逼你吃"},{"start":8735.51,"end":8737.51,"text":"那我現在問部長請問你對於他"},{"start":8737.51,"end":8739.51,"text":"這番話認同嗎"},{"start":8739.51,"end":8741.51,"text":"你的comment是什麼"},{"start":8742.36,"end":8744.36,"text":"我們在面對這些事件的時候"},{"start":8744.36,"end":8746.36,"text":"我們都要用"},{"start":8747.76,"end":8749.76,"text":"同理謙卑的態度"},{"start":8749.76,"end":8751.76,"text":"這個在我們在處理這個事件的過程上"},{"start":8751.76,"end":8753.76,"text":"都是這樣"},{"start":8753.76,"end":8755.76,"text":"為人民的健康把關是我們的"},{"start":8755.76,"end":8757.76,"text":"所以不認同啊聽起來不認同"},{"start":8757.76,"end":8759.76,"text":"那我現在第二個問題就是不用逼"},{"start":8759.76,"end":8761.76,"text":"也吃得到嘛他說又不是我逼"},{"start":8761.76,"end":8763.76,"text":"你吃問題是吳征你不用逼"},{"start":8763.76,"end":8765.76,"text":"大家吃大家也吃得到啊"},{"start":8765.76,"end":8767.76,"text":"為什麼大家吃得到不是被吳征逼才"},{"start":8767.76,"end":8769.76,"text":"吃得到是因為這些毒品"},{"start":8769.76,"end":8771.76,"text":"流竄不用逼也吃得到請問"},{"start":8771.76,"end":8773.76,"text":"一下毒品流竄不用逼也吃得到"},{"start":8773.76,"end":8775.76,"text":"到底是誰的責任"},{"start":8775.76,"end":8777.76,"text":"大家"},{"start":8776.94,"end":8778.94,"text":"你現在甩鍋給業者甩鍋給地方政府"},{"start":8778.94,"end":8780.94,"text":"請問是誰的責任"},{"start":8780.94,"end":8782.94,"text":"我們在食品安全上當然"},{"start":8782.94,"end":8784.94,"text":"業者有他的責任"},{"start":8784.94,"end":8786.94,"text":"就像金輝文當初的"},{"start":8786.94,"end":8788.94,"text":"製造的一定業者的責任"},{"start":8788.94,"end":8790.94,"text":"很多已經不可考了"},{"start":8790.94,"end":8792.94,"text":"中央跟地方一起合作"},{"start":8792.94,"end":8794.94,"text":"因為都已經流到人民的肚子了"},{"start":8794.94,"end":8796.94,"text":"業者一定有他的責任"},{"start":8796.94,"end":8798.94,"text":"地方政府的責任也可以做一些"},{"start":8798.94,"end":8800.94,"text":"檢討但是中央政府"},{"start":8800.94,"end":8802.94,"text":"絕對是責無旁貸的"},{"start":8802.94,"end":8804.94,"text":"在甩鍋之餘好好的回頭"},{"start":8804.94,"end":8806.94,"text":"請示自己的角色"},{"start":8806.94,"end":8808.94,"text":"三者都是責無旁貸"},{"start":8808.94,"end":8810.94,"text":"我們來看一下毒蛇"},{"start":8810.94,"end":8812.94,"text":"毒蛇事件是什麼毒蛇事件"},{"start":8812.94,"end":8814.94,"text":"因為你講了一些話傷了"},{"start":8814.94,"end":8816.94,"text":"同志的心在同志的"},{"start":8816.94,"end":8818.94,"text":"耳朵聽起來那就是一個"},{"start":8818.94,"end":8820.94,"text":"毒蛇毒蛇的傷害"},{"start":8820.94,"end":8822.94,"text":"上個禮拜我們在這個地方"},{"start":8822.94,"end":8824.94,"text":"做人工生殖法的一個審查"},{"start":8824.94,"end":8826.94,"text":"那你說同志"},{"start":8826.94,"end":8828.94,"text":"不是"},{"start":8828.15,"end":8830.15,"text":"同志叫做結合關係"},{"start":8830.15,"end":8832.15,"text":"那我告訴你同志團體大炸鍋"},{"start":8832.15,"end":8834.15,"text":"他說什麼"},{"start":8834.15,"end":8836.15,"text":"我們的身份證翻過來"},{"start":8836.15,"end":8838.15,"text":"人家還有舉證身份證翻過來"},{"start":8838.15,"end":8840.15,"text":"我的"},{"start":8840.15,"end":8842.15,"text":"你所謂的結合關係"},{"start":8842.15,"end":8844.15,"text":"的伴侶他就是配偶"},{"start":8844.15,"end":8846.15,"text":"人家身份證已經翻過來"},{"start":8846.15,"end":8848.15,"text":"打臉你說我們就是配偶"},{"start":8848.15,"end":8850.15,"text":"你說人家不是配偶是"},{"start":8850.15,"end":8852.15,"text":"這個叫什麼結合關係好先別急"},{"start":8852.15,"end":8854.15,"text":"來我們看一下同志"},{"start":8854.15,"end":8856.15,"text":"聯盟他們怎麼說"},{"start":8856.15,"end":8858.15,"text":"部長的發言不是一時的口誤"},{"start":8858.15,"end":8860.15,"text":"是衛福部部長長期以來"},{"start":8860.15,"end":8862.15,"text":"根深蒂固的"},{"start":8862.15,"end":8864.15,"text":"旗艦拒絕與時"},{"start":8864.15,"end":8866.15,"text":"距近的旗艦好我先問你"},{"start":8866.15,"end":8868.15,"text":"要不要針對你這樣的"},{"start":8868.15,"end":8870.15,"text":"說法跟同志道歉"},{"start":8870.15,"end":8872.15,"text":"當天是在做修訂"},{"start":8872.15,"end":8874.15,"text":"條文上所以我們是用法律"},{"start":8874.15,"end":8876.15,"text":"上要把它入法"},{"start":8876.15,"end":8878.15,"text":"所以我當然當時是"},{"start":8878.15,"end":8880.15,"text":"愉快了啦其實最主要是"},{"start":8880.15,"end":8882.15,"text":"在討論在入法的時候那個"},{"start":8882.15,"end":8884.15,"text":"法律的用語要對應到"},{"start":8884.15,"end":8886.15,"text":"但同志你的內心"},{"start":8886.15,"end":8888.15,"text":"這個現實上的用字"},{"start":8888.15,"end":8890.15,"text":"才能夠對齊啦"},{"start":8890.15,"end":8892.15,"text":"而且他們也要求你道歉"},{"start":8892.15,"end":8894.15,"text":"你要不要做一個說明"},{"start":8894.15,"end":8896.15,"text":"原本我們的這個人工生殖法"},{"start":8896.15,"end":8898.15,"text":"裡面用的是配偶"},{"start":8898.15,"end":8900.15,"text":"但是我們這次要破大道"},{"start":8900.15,"end":8902.15,"text":"破大道這個同婚"},{"start":8902.15,"end":8904.15,"text":"所以我要說明清楚說"},{"start":8904.15,"end":8906.15,"text":"你不要幫我出名啊你要跟同志團體"},{"start":8906.15,"end":8908.15,"text":"我也沒辦法去幫你說明"},{"start":8908.15,"end":8910.15,"text":"你不道歉也沒有關係"},{"start":8910.15,"end":8912.15,"text":"但是我覺得你出法"},{"start":8912.15,"end":8914.15,"text":"同志團體不要覺得"},{"start":8914.15,"end":8916.15,"text":"我們的衛福部與其部長"},{"start":8916.15,"end":8918.15,"text":"是一個根深蒂固"},{"start":8918.15,"end":8920.15,"text":"拒絕與時拒盡的"},{"start":8920.15,"end":8922.15,"text":"旗艦性意見的一個"},{"start":8922.15,"end":8924.15,"text":"衛福部或者是部長"},{"start":8924.15,"end":8926.15,"text":"沒有所以你不道歉你至少要說明"},{"start":8926.15,"end":8928.15,"text":"這是我的建議"},{"start":8928.15,"end":8930.15,"text":"我們不會有任何的歧視我們絕對是"},{"start":8930.77,"end":8932.77,"text":"尊重多元性別這個沒有問題的"},{"start":8932.77,"end":8934.77,"text":"這個立場上是絕對沒有問題"},{"start":8934.77,"end":8936.77,"text":"反正你不道歉然後也不說明"},{"start":8936.77,"end":8938.77,"text":"我就不知道同志團體"},{"start":8938.77,"end":8940.77,"text":"這個是在立法的時候我們希望用字精準"},{"start":8940.77,"end":8942.77,"text":"好沒有問題"},{"start":8942.77,"end":8944.77,"text":"那現在你們應該是一個禮拜"},{"start":8944.77,"end":8946.77,"text":"可以給我們這答案嗎"},{"start":8946.77,"end":8948.77,"text":"聽起來就是一個禮拜"},{"start":8948.77,"end":8950.77,"text":"因為我的訴求跟臨時提案上面的訴求"},{"start":8950.77,"end":8952.77,"text":"是一樣的"},{"start":8952.98,"end":8954.98,"text":"左邊這邊的"},{"start":8954.98,"end":8956.98,"text":"就是這裡的問題"},{"start":8956.98,"end":8958.98,"text":"也請你並回答一個禮拜之後"},{"start":8958.98,"end":8960.98,"text":"回覆可以嗎"},{"start":8960.98,"end":8962.98,"text":"一個禮拜"},{"start":8962.98,"end":8964.98,"text":"你有提到一個禮拜可以提供資料"},{"start":8964.98,"end":8966.98,"text":"在臨時提案裡面好像也都有提到"},{"start":8966.98,"end":8968.98,"text":"再請回覆好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":8971.02,"end":8973.02,"text":"謝謝邱鶴入委員的諮詢"},{"start":8973.02,"end":8975.02,"text":"現在請王玉明委員諮詢"},{"start":8984.65,"end":8986.65,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請部長"},{"start":8986.65,"end":8988.65,"text":"有請市政兩部長"},{"start":8991.47,"end":8993.47,"text":"好委員好部長好"},{"start":8993.47,"end":8995.47,"text":"部長這一波的毒油風暴"},{"start":8995.47,"end":8997.47,"text":"最新的消息是"},{"start":8997.47,"end":8999.47,"text":"這一波毒油還消亡的"},{"start":8999.47,"end":9001.47,"text":"南韓"},{"start":9001.47,"end":9003.47,"text":"這簡直是丟臉丟到國外去"},{"start":9003.47,"end":9005.47,"text":"那這個第一時間"},{"start":9005.47,"end":9007.47,"text":"你們說好家宅"},{"start":9007.47,"end":9009.47,"text":"是到日本日本"},{"start":9009.47,"end":9011.47,"text":"沒有訂本扁平的標準"},{"start":9011.47,"end":9013.47,"text":"所以沒有關係也不用通報"},{"start":9013.47,"end":9015.47,"text":"這就是一種非常"},{"start":9015.47,"end":9017.47,"text":"輕忽跟僥倖的"},{"start":9017.47,"end":9019.47,"text":"態度結果現在"},{"start":9019.47,"end":9021.47,"text":"你們昨天晚上最新更新"},{"start":9021.47,"end":9023.47,"text":"是消亡南韓去了"},{"start":9024.65,"end":9026.65,"text":"那南韓的標準"},{"start":9026.65,"end":9028.65,"text":"跟我們一樣跟歐盟一樣"},{"start":9028.65,"end":9030.65,"text":"都是相對嚴格的一個標準"},{"start":9031.14,"end":9033.14,"text":"我們輸了"},{"start":9033.39,"end":9035.39,"text":"不知道他的品質如何的"},{"start":9035.39,"end":9037.39,"text":"由到了南韓"},{"start":9037.39,"end":9039.39,"text":"因為這一批是沒有樣本"},{"start":9040.66,"end":9042.66,"text":"沒有樣本問題也很大"},{"start":9042.66,"end":9044.66,"text":"為什麼一個廠商"},{"start":9044.66,"end":9046.66,"text":"你好幾批的都有樣本"},{"start":9046.66,"end":9048.66,"text":"這一批就獨漏了"},{"start":9048.66,"end":9050.66,"text":"沒有樣本是沒有樣本"},{"start":9050.66,"end":9052.66,"text":"還是銷毀還是隱匿"},{"start":9052.66,"end":9054.66,"text":"你們查清楚了嗎"},{"start":9054.66,"end":9056.66,"text":"跟委員說明這個我們都有查清楚"},{"start":9056.66,"end":9058.66,"text":"第一個呢他是有樣本"},{"start":9058.66,"end":9060.66,"text":"在中聯裡面有樣本"},{"start":9060.66,"end":9062.66,"text":"那個樣本驗起來是合格"},{"start":9062.66,"end":9064.66,"text":"那但是因為呢他所有的樣本"},{"start":9064.66,"end":9066.66,"text":"驗起來呢都合格"},{"start":9066.66,"end":9068.66,"text":"但是我們在下游驗出不合格"},{"start":9068.66,"end":9070.66,"text":"所以我們才會全面性的從"},{"start":9070.66,"end":9072.66,"text":"中間這一層"},{"start":9072.66,"end":9074.66,"text":"就是福茂"},{"start":9074.66,"end":9076.66,"text":"這個福壽跟泰山他們的"},{"start":9076.66,"end":9078.66,"text":"存留的原油的樣本"},{"start":9078.66,"end":9080.66,"text":"所以你一定不相信他的樣本了"},{"start":9080.66,"end":9082.66,"text":"所以他的樣本基本上他驗的話"},{"start":9082.66,"end":9084.66,"text":"已經沒有意義了"},{"start":9084.66,"end":9086.66,"text":"沒有相信了"},{"start":9086.66,"end":9088.66,"text":"所以現在南韓應該是差在哪裡"},{"start":9088.66,"end":9090.66,"text":"因為他是出口"},{"start":9090.66,"end":9092.66,"text":"我覺得我們是一個負責任的政府"},{"start":9092.66,"end":9094.66,"text":"這不是只有廠商的事情"},{"start":9094.66,"end":9096.66,"text":"我們應該要對應跟南韓的"},{"start":9096.66,"end":9098.66,"text":"食藥署相關的單位"},{"start":9098.66,"end":9100.66,"text":"很負責任的告知他"},{"start":9100.66,"end":9102.66,"text":"有這樣的情況請他們"},{"start":9102.66,"end":9104.66,"text":"拜託他們儘快加驗"},{"start":9104.66,"end":9106.66,"text":"確認這一批到底有沒有超標"},{"start":9106.66,"end":9108.66,"text":"這才是一個負責任的政府"},{"start":9108.66,"end":9110.66,"text":"該做的事情吧"},{"start":9110.66,"end":9112.66,"text":"有沒有做"},{"start":9112.66,"end":9114.66,"text":"在7月14號這個廠商就已經通知他的對方"},{"start":9114.66,"end":9116.66,"text":"那我們說這個油品"},{"start":9116.66,"end":9118.66,"text":"那我們再去追一下他們有沒有驗"},{"start":9118.66,"end":9120.66,"text":"驗出來趕快告訴大家"},{"start":9120.66,"end":9122.66,"text":"我們不要台灣的油品的問題"},{"start":9122.66,"end":9124.66,"text":"這一部分我們都沒有"},{"start":9124.66,"end":9126.66,"text":"我們真的油品的問題"},{"start":9126.66,"end":9128.66,"text":"這一波還掃到國外去"},{"start":9128.66,"end":9130.66,"text":"這樣真的是太丟臉了"},{"start":9130.66,"end":9132.66,"text":"代表我們台灣在我們的品管各方面"},{"start":9132.66,"end":9134.66,"text":"真的是有疏漏"},{"start":9134.66,"end":9136.66,"text":"接下來我要問你們是你們到現在"},{"start":9136.66,"end":9138.66,"text":"一直沒有辦法回答的問題"},{"start":9138.66,"end":9140.66,"text":"就是1到3月"},{"start":9140.66,"end":9142.66,"text":"1到3月的油品"},{"start":9142.66,"end":9144.66,"text":"到底有沒有問題"},{"start":9144.66,"end":9146.66,"text":"你們沒有向上追查"},{"start":9146.66,"end":9148.66,"text":"我從第一次問你的時候就問了"},{"start":9148.66,"end":9150.66,"text":"都沒有問題"},{"start":9150.66,"end":9152.66,"text":"到目前這個驗出來的結果"},{"start":9152.66,"end":9154.66,"text":"都出來了嗎"},{"start":9154.66,"end":9156.66,"text":"因為4到6月7批有問題"},{"start":9156.66,"end":9158.66,"text":"我們也是擴大1到3月"},{"start":9158.66,"end":9160.66,"text":"到目前還沒有驗出問題"},{"start":9161.32,"end":9163.32,"text":"都驗了嗎"},{"start":9163.32,"end":9165.32,"text":"確定沒有問題嗎"},{"start":9165.32,"end":9167.32,"text":"那好那我就要問原因"},{"start":9167.32,"end":9169.32,"text":"那怎麼會這麼奇怪"},{"start":9169.32,"end":9171.32,"text":"就是昨天署長最新講的說"},{"start":9171.32,"end":9173.32,"text":"因為這個巴西的黃豆"},{"start":9173.32,"end":9175.32,"text":"就是它的熱損傷率"},{"start":9175.32,"end":9177.32,"text":"他們自省從0.5%放寬到5%"},{"start":9177.32,"end":9179.32,"text":"那請問業者做這個事情"},{"start":9179.32,"end":9181.32,"text":"我看到你們新聞稿是說"},{"start":9181.32,"end":9183.32,"text":"去年就做這樣的事情"},{"start":9183.32,"end":9185.32,"text":"那如果這個是主因的話"},{"start":9185.32,"end":9187.32,"text":"怎麼會有的有問題"},{"start":9187.32,"end":9189.32,"text":"有的有又沒有問題"},{"start":9189.32,"end":9191.32,"text":"應該也都是有用巴西的黃豆吧"},{"start":9191.32,"end":9193.32,"text":"因為我找到知道去年就有進"},{"start":9193.32,"end":9195.32,"text":"那今年也有"},{"start":9195.32,"end":9197.32,"text":"那如果它是一個重要的因素的話"},{"start":9197.32,"end":9199.32,"text":"為什麼在你們30批裡面"},{"start":9199.32,"end":9201.32,"text":"會有的有有的沒有"},{"start":9201.32,"end":9203.32,"text":"好跟委員說明"},{"start":9203.32,"end":9205.32,"text":"因為現在專家的見解"},{"start":9205.32,"end":9207.32,"text":"那最後的調查報告"},{"start":9207.32,"end":9209.32,"text":"還在撰寫中啦"},{"start":9209.32,"end":9211.32,"text":"那麼以目前我們專家的見解上"},{"start":9211.32,"end":9213.32,"text":"當然這個"},{"start":9213.32,"end":9215.32,"text":"熱損利率是一個"},{"start":9215.32,"end":9217.32,"text":"驗收的標準"},{"start":9217.32,"end":9219.32,"text":"沒有辦法完全等同於品質"},{"start":9219.32,"end":9221.32,"text":"所以在品質上"},{"start":9221.32,"end":9225.32,"text":"確實在4月份的這一批的品質"},{"start":9225.32,"end":9227.32,"text":"他們有不同的"},{"start":9227.32,"end":9231.32,"text":"入傳批的那個來源"},{"start":9231.32,"end":9233.32,"text":"它的不同傳批在4月份的"},{"start":9233.32,"end":9235.32,"text":"這個品質是特別不好"},{"start":9235.32,"end":9237.32,"text":"所以造成它"},{"start":9237.32,"end":9239.32,"text":"那4月份的量有多大"},{"start":9239.32,"end":9241.32,"text":"就是幾噸"},{"start":9241.32,"end":9243.32,"text":"就是4月份做的"},{"start":9243.32,"end":9245.32,"text":"因為它那一批品質特別不好"},{"start":9245.32,"end":9247.32,"text":"所以它可能這個本品質"},{"start":9247.32,"end":9249.32,"text":"含量特別高"},{"start":9249.32,"end":9251.32,"text":"然後它又沒有驗"},{"start":9251.32,"end":9253.32,"text":"就是說這個黃豆"},{"start":9253.32,"end":9255.32,"text":"本身的品質就不好"},{"start":9255.32,"end":9257.32,"text":"那它又沒有驗"},{"start":9257.32,"end":9259.32,"text":"所以它這個問題可能是"},{"start":9259.32,"end":9261.32,"text":"出在這個地方"},{"start":9261.32,"end":9263.32,"text":"所以它的製程到目前為止"},{"start":9263.32,"end":9265.32,"text":"你們覺得製程是沒有問題"},{"start":9265.32,"end":9267.32,"text":"就是原料端的問題"},{"start":9267.32,"end":9269.32,"text":"製程上它還是要改"},{"start":9269.32,"end":9271.32,"text":"因為它有很多的管制點沒有達標"},{"start":9271.32,"end":9273.32,"text":"從我們這個集合它的HA"},{"start":9273.32,"end":9275.32,"text":"它的這些管制點沒有完全達標"},{"start":9275.32,"end":9277.32,"text":"你們從今年至少是今年"},{"start":9277.32,"end":9279.32,"text":"從1月份到6月份"},{"start":9279.32,"end":9281.32,"text":"到底巴西黃豆"},{"start":9281.32,"end":9283.32,"text":"他們進口量多少"},{"start":9283.32,"end":9285.32,"text":"然後用的多少"},{"start":9285.32,"end":9287.32,"text":"還有這個本甜品它的原豆含量"},{"start":9287.32,"end":9289.32,"text":"因為你們一直說它的熱損傷率"},{"start":9289.32,"end":9291.32,"text":"就是從0.5%到5%"},{"start":9291.32,"end":9293.32,"text":"它是放大了10倍"},{"start":9293.32,"end":9295.32,"text":"如果是從去年的話"},{"start":9295.32,"end":9297.32,"text":"照大量今年進來的豆子"},{"start":9297.32,"end":9299.32,"text":"可能都有這樣的問題"},{"start":92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沒有"},{"start":9432.98,"end":9434.98,"text":"那個時候還沒有"},{"start":9434.98,"end":9436.98,"text":"食安辦的主任有參與修法嗎"},{"start":9436.98,"end":9438.98,"text":"你們都沒有"},{"start":9438.98,"end":9440.98,"text":"當時修法的精神很重要的"},{"start":9440.98,"end":9442.98,"text":"現在食安法的二之一條"},{"start":9442.98,"end":9444.98,"text":"這個是新增的條文"},{"start":9444.98,"end":9446.98,"text":"還有食安法的第四條"},{"start":9446.98,"end":9448.98,"text":"二之一條"},{"start":9449.69,"end":9451.69,"text":"這個你們可以去翻所有的法案"},{"start":9451.69,"end":9453.69,"text":"很少直接指定"},{"start":9453.69,"end":9455.69,"text":"院長他必須"},{"start":9455.69,"end":9457.69,"text":"擔任召集人"},{"start":9458.77,"end":9460.77,"text":"當時就是大家非常重視食安事件"},{"start":9460.77,"end":9462.77,"text":"所以增加了二之一條"},{"start":9462.77,"end":9464.77,"text":"食安會報也是那個時候"},{"start":9464.77,"end":9466.77,"text":"增加出來的"},{"start":9466.77,"end":9468.77,"text":"必須由院長擔任召集人"},{"start":9468.77,"end":9470.77,"text":"而且遇到重大的"},{"start":9470.77,"end":9472.77,"text":"這個風暴的時候"},{"start":9472.77,"end":9474.77,"text":"要召開臨時會議"},{"start":9476.32,"end":9478.32,"text":"所以院長"},{"start":9478.32,"end":9480.32,"text":"他擔任一個非常重要的角色"},{"start":9480.32,"end":9482.32,"text":"為什麼 因為食安的議題"},{"start":9482.32,"end":9484.32,"text":"怎麼會一直說是地方的責任"},{"start":9484.32,"end":9486.32,"text":"食安的議題坦白講"},{"start":9486.32,"end":9488.32,"text":"他必須是一條邊"},{"start":9488.32,"end":9490.32,"text":"他必須是跨部會"},{"start":9490.32,"end":9492.32,"text":"他必須是由一個最高有權力的人"},{"start":9492.32,"end":9494.32,"text":"來統籌所有的事情"},{"start":9494.32,"end":9496.32,"text":"所以這是食安法當時上一波修法"},{"start":9496.32,"end":9498.32,"text":"最重要的精神"},{"start":9498.32,"end":9500.32,"text":"食安法第二條之一"},{"start":9500.32,"end":9502.32,"text":"請大家把它翻出來好好地看"},{"start":9502.32,"end":9504.32,"text":"重大事件"},{"start":9504.32,"end":9506.32,"text":"有一個指揮機制"},{"start":9506.32,"end":9508.32,"text":"要再寫更清楚我也不反對"},{"start":9508.32,"end":9510.32,"text":"但是坦白講 食安法的二之一條"},{"start":9510.32,"end":9512.32,"text":"已經賦予了整個"},{"start":9512.32,"end":9514.32,"text":"中央行政機關非常高的"},{"start":9514.32,"end":9516.32,"text":"權限"},{"start":9516.32,"end":9518.32,"text":"沒有寫你們不能做嗎"},{"start":9518.32,"end":9520.32,"text":"過去的重大食安事件"},{"start":9520.32,"end":9522.32,"text":"哪一次不是中央擔起來"},{"start":9522.32,"end":9524.32,"text":"食藥署擔起來"},{"start":9524.32,"end":9526.32,"text":"統一一條邊"},{"start":9526.32,"end":9528.32,"text":"要求各縣市要怎麼做"},{"start":9528.32,"end":9530.32,"text":"這個叫指揮運作 為什麼"},{"start":9530.32,"end":9532.32,"text":"所有的食安議題不會是單一縣市的問題"},{"start":9532.32,"end":9534.32,"text":"就讓這個有品"},{"start":9533.9,"end":9535.9,"text":"現在有問題的產品到下游去"},{"start":9535.9,"end":9537.9,"text":"本島 離島全部都中"},{"start":9537.9,"end":9539.9,"text":"怎麼可能是"},{"start":9539.9,"end":9541.9,"text":"只有單一的縣市擔得起的"},{"start":9541.9,"end":9543.9,"text":"這是為什麼我們要給食藥署"},{"start":9543.9,"end":9545.9,"text":"這麼多的預算"},{"start":9545.9,"end":9547.9,"text":"我們要設食安辦"},{"start":9547.9,"end":9549.9,"text":"行政院別忘了還有食安辦"},{"start":9550.83,"end":9552.83,"text":"就代表食安這一題本來就是"},{"start":9552.83,"end":9556.83,"text":"跨部會中央指揮地方一條邊"},{"start":9556.83,"end":9558.83,"text":"是這樣子的運作"},{"start":9558.83,"end":9560.83,"text":"現在大家為了卸責 拼命去攻擊地方政府"},{"start":9560.83,"end":9562.83,"text":"我如果是地方政府的食安人員"},{"start":9562.83,"end":9564.83,"text":"真的是心寒無比"},{"start":9564.83,"end":9566.83,"text":"陳其邁市長昨天就講了"},{"start":9566.83,"end":9568.83,"text":"聽中央的"},{"start":9568.83,"end":9570.83,"text":"一下子叫我上架一下子下架"},{"start":9571.38,"end":9573.38,"text":"地方就是類似基層"},{"start":9574.45,"end":9576.45,"text":"所以這個大家已經不需要去爭辯了"},{"start":9576.45,"end":9578.45,"text":"食安這一題"},{"start":9578.45,"end":9580.45,"text":"完完全全中央就是"},{"start":9580.45,"end":9582.45,"text":"有指揮監督的責任"},{"start":9582.45,"end":9584.45,"text":"而且食安法第二條之一"},{"start":9584.45,"end":9586.45,"text":"這麼高層級的食安會報"},{"start":9586.45,"end":9588.45,"text":"是他失靈他沒有發揮功能"},{"start":9588.45,"end":9590.45,"text":"不是說現在不能做"},{"start":9590.45,"end":9592.45,"text":"大家都一直說要修法什麼"},{"start":9592.45,"end":9594.45,"text":"事實上你們"},{"start":9594.45,"end":9596.45,"text":"沒有修法的情況底下"},{"start":9596.45,"end":9598.45,"text":"通通都可以做"},{"start":9598.45,"end":9600.45,"text":"所以我希望這一題大家不要再去"},{"start":9600.45,"end":9602.45,"text":"講什麼中央地方"},{"start":9602.45,"end":9604.45,"text":"甚至轉而去攻擊地方"},{"start":9604.45,"end":9606.45,"text":"這都是沒有意義的地方坦白講"},{"start":9606.45,"end":9608.45,"text":"他就是執行你們講了什麼"},{"start":9608.45,"end":9610.45,"text":"他照你的命令他就是去幫你"},{"start":9610.45,"end":9612.45,"text":"把那些產品下架幫你"},{"start":9612.45,"end":9614.45,"text":"去稽查更何況"},{"start":9614.45,"end":9616.45,"text":"你中央還有專案"},{"start":9616.45,"end":9618.45,"text":"食藥署你們過去"},{"start":9618.45,"end":9620.45,"text":"辦專案的"},{"start":9620.45,"end":9622.45,"text":"稽查就是為什麼"},{"start":9622.45,"end":9624.45,"text":"因為這個涉及到重大的"},{"start":9624.45,"end":9626.45,"text":"一定是中央要扛起來"},{"start":9626.45,"end":9628.45,"text":"這個已經不需要再去爭辯的議題"},{"start":9628.45,"end":9630.45,"text":"所以"},{"start":9629.82,"end":9631.82,"text":"未來的修法我希望大家好好的談"},{"start":9631.82,"end":9633.82,"text":"這件事情不需要"},{"start":9633.82,"end":9635.82,"text":"有黨派之分"},{"start":9635.82,"end":9637.82,"text":"也不是中央地方之分"},{"start":9637.82,"end":9639.82,"text":"而是因為這一次"},{"start":9639.82,"end":9641.82,"text":"到底還有哪一些特別是"},{"start":9641.82,"end":9643.82,"text":"業者的責任過去我們太相信他了"},{"start":9643.82,"end":9645.82,"text":"未來就是強化"},{"start":9645.82,"end":9647.82,"text":"我們的查律機制就對了"},{"start":9647.82,"end":9649.82,"text":"像中央政府就可以指揮地方"},{"start":9649.82,"end":9651.82,"text":"就是你要求什麼樣的有品"},{"start":9651.82,"end":9653.82,"text":"你們要強力稽查"},{"start":9653.82,"end":9655.82,"text":"你沒有哪一次專案地方不配合"},{"start":9655.82,"end":9657.82,"text":"沒有啊只要你發動"},{"start":9657.82,"end":9659.82,"text":"沒有人不配合了"},{"start":9659.82,"end":9661.82,"text":"所以我覺得修法大家可以好好再來談"},{"start":9661.82,"end":9663.82,"text":"接下來我要問今天我們講的"},{"start":9663.82,"end":9665.82,"text":"這個蘋果這一題"},{"start":9665.82,"end":9667.82,"text":"我大概簡單說明其實在昨天"},{"start":9667.82,"end":9669.82,"text":"修法的討論裡面"},{"start":9669.82,"end":9671.82,"text":"中央跟地方其實大家對於"},{"start":9671.82,"end":9673.82,"text":"成立這個重大食品"},{"start":9673.82,"end":9675.82,"text":"安全事件的指揮中心"},{"start":9675.82,"end":9677.82,"text":"這個大家是有共識的"},{"start":9677.82,"end":9679.82,"text":"因為最重要的是他"},{"start":9679.82,"end":9681.82,"text":"要明確的授權這個"},{"start":9681.82,"end":9683.82,"text":"這個指揮中心"},{"start":9683.82,"end":9685.82,"text":"能夠去統合調整"},{"start":9685.82,"end":9687.82,"text":"因為時間的關係"},{"start":9687.82,"end":9689.82,"text":"我要進入到下一題"},{"start":9689.82,"end":9691.82,"text":"這個就是蘋果"},{"start":9691.82,"end":9693.82,"text":"我手上這個有標示著"},{"start":9693.82,"end":9695.82,"text":"兩個蘋果分譜你的量"},{"start":9695.82,"end":9697.82,"text":"一個這個是0.5ppm"},{"start":9697.82,"end":9699.82,"text":"一個是3ppm"},{"start":9699.82,"end":9701.82,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":9701.82,"end":9703.82,"text":"如果讓你可以選擇的話"},{"start":9703.82,"end":9705.82,"text":"你要吃哪一顆"},{"start":9705.82,"end":9707.82,"text":"都一樣啦因為我們都是經過"},{"start":9707.82,"end":9709.82,"text":"安全這個評估之後都可以"},{"start":9709.82,"end":9711.82,"text":"都可以"},{"start":9711.82,"end":9713.82,"text":"那你跟一般政策人不太一樣"},{"start":9713.82,"end":9715.82,"text":"如果是一般的正常人的話"},{"start":9715.82,"end":9717.82,"text":"我相信大家寧可選"},{"start":9717.82,"end":9719.82,"text":"這一顆"},{"start":9719.82,"end":9721.82,"text":"0.5ppm 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"text":"機關還沒有辦法"},{"start":10954.5,"end":10956.5,"text":"百分之百明確的回答"},{"start":10956.5,"end":10958.5,"text":"人民說"},{"start":10958.5,"end":10960.5,"text":"不知道污染"},{"start":10960.5,"end":10962.5,"text":"到底在整個生產鏈"},{"start":10962.5,"end":10964.5,"text":"上的哪一個環節"},{"start":10964.5,"end":10966.5,"text":"發生問題"},{"start":10966.5,"end":10968.5,"text":"所以6月30到現在"},{"start":10968.5,"end":10970.5,"text":"三個多禮拜了"},{"start":10970.5,"end":10972.5,"text":"所以我們才會說"},{"start":10972.5,"end":10974.5,"text":"還沒有辦法肯定的"},{"start":10974.5,"end":10976.5,"text":"指出到底是什麼原因"},{"start":10976.5,"end":10978.5,"text":"我們生氣的地方"},{"start":10978.5,"end":10980.5,"text":"這個是很嚴重的事情"},{"start":10980.5,"end":10982.5,"text":"這樣子是不可以的"},{"start":10982.47,"end":10984.47,"text":"這樣子人民當然有權利要生氣"},{"start":10986.2,"end":10988.2,"text":"這個也跟委員說明"},{"start":10988.2,"end":10990.2,"text":"當然在這個"},{"start":10990.2,"end":10992.2,"text":"調查過程當中"},{"start":10992.2,"end":10994.2,"text":"因為這個廠商的作假"},{"start":10994.73,"end":10996.73,"text":"增加了我們的複雜度"},{"start":10996.73,"end":10998.73,"text":"所以他的所有的樣本因為不可信"},{"start":10998.73,"end":11000.73,"text":"所以我們從下游中下游全美"},{"start":11000.73,"end":11002.73,"text":"去審限之後"},{"start":11002.73,"end":11004.73,"text":"然後再回去對應"},{"start":11004.73,"end":11006.73,"text":"其實早就應該進去"},{"start":11006.73,"end":11008.73,"text":"但是我要再告訴你一件事情"},{"start":11008.73,"end":11010.73,"text":"其實食藥署早就知道了啦"},{"start":11010.73,"end":11012.73,"text":"早就知道"},{"start":11012.73,"end":11014.73,"text":"而且這整個事件"},{"start":11014.73,"end":11016.73,"text":"如果從2021年"},{"start":11016.73,"end":11018.73,"text":"食藥署"},{"start":11018.73,"end":11020.73,"text":"再由他們自己發表過的"},{"start":11020.73,"end":11022.73,"text":"報告"},{"start":11022.39,"end":11024.39,"text":"在他們的食品藥物"},{"start":11024.39,"end":11026.39,"text":"研究年報裡面"},{"start":11026.39,"end":11028.39,"text":"整個油脂產業"},{"start":11028.39,"end":11030.39,"text":"最核心的問題"},{"start":11030.39,"end":11032.39,"text":"早就知道了"},{"start":11032.39,"end":11034.39,"text":"不是食藥署知道"},{"start":11034.39,"end":11036.39,"text":"地方政府也都早就知道了"},{"start":11036.39,"end":11038.39,"text":"他們做的研究是什麼"},{"start":11038.39,"end":11040.39,"text":"你知道嗎?因為你還不是"},{"start":11040.39,"end":11042.39,"text":"當時2021年你也不是部長啦"},{"start":11042.39,"end":11044.39,"text":"所以我現在就跟你講一下"},{"start":11044.39,"end":11046.39,"text":"他們那篇研究"},{"start":11046.39,"end":11048.39,"text":"題目叫做"},{"start":11048.39,"end":11050.39,"text":"食用油脂工廠"},{"start":11050.39,"end":11054.39,"text":"實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統的概況"},{"start":11055.86,"end":11057.86,"text":"這個是中央"},{"start":11057.86,"end":11059.86,"text":"跟地方政府一起去調查"},{"start":11059.86,"end":11061.86,"text":"產出的報告"},{"start":11062.32,"end":11066.32,"text":"文章裡面第一段就提到重點"},{"start":11066.32,"end":11069.32,"text":"食用油脂擁有多元品質指標項目"},{"start":11069.32,"end":11071.32,"text":"無法緊究單一檢測品質"},{"start":11071.32,"end":11073.32,"text":"直接鑑別產品的優劣"},{"start":11073.32,"end":11075.32,"text":"後續仍以現場"},{"start":11075.32,"end":11077.32,"text":"稽查試證為主"},{"start":11077.32,"end":11079.32,"text":"充分反映事前監控"},{"start":11079.32,"end":11082.32,"text":"勝於最終檢驗的重要性"},{"start":11082.32,"end":11086.32,"text":"所以這個中央地方聯合調查的調查報告"},{"start":11086.32,"end":11088.32,"text":"開宗明義就講了"},{"start":11088.32,"end":11091.32,"text":"這個不是最終檢驗能夠處理的"},{"start":11091.32,"end":11093.32,"text":"他一定要事前監控"},{"start":11093.32,"end":11097.32,"text":"而且仍需以現場稽查試證為主"},{"start":11097.32,"end":11099.32,"text":"那我要講這個是這樣子"},{"start":11101.5,"end":11105.5,"text":"現在這套事前監控系統"},{"start":11105.5,"end":11108.5,"text":"到底有沒有發揮作用"},{"start":11108.5,"end":11112.5,"text":"而你們的HACCP系統"},{"start":11113.5,"end":11114.5,"text":"是吧第幾條"},{"start":11114.5,"end":11117.5,"text":"HACCP第八條"},{"start":11118.01,"end":11121.01,"text":"所以這些食品業者都要符合第八條的規定"},{"start":11121.01,"end":11123.01,"text":"要HACCP系統"},{"start":11123.01,"end":11126.01,"text":"什麼是HACCP系統"},{"start":11127.49,"end":11130.49,"text":"就是他的食品事前的管控"},{"start":11130.49,"end":11135.49,"text":"他這個叫Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point"},{"start":11136.62,"end":11140.62,"text":"簡單來講就是危害重要管制點"},{"start":11140.62,"end":11142.62,"text":"危害分析"},{"start":11143.96,"end":11145.96,"text":"他的重要管制點"},{"start":11145.96,"end":11146.96,"text":"他的危害分析"},{"start":11146.96,"end":11148.96,"text":"食品安全的管制系統"},{"start":11148.96,"end":11151.96,"text":"整個法律就仰賴這個制度"},{"start":11151.96,"end":11154.96,"text":"而這個制度到底有沒有在運作"},{"start":11155.59,"end":11157.59,"text":"這個HACCP的管制精神"},{"start":11157.59,"end":11159.59,"text":"兩個一個危害分析"},{"start":11159.59,"end":11161.59,"text":"第二個重要管制點"},{"start":11163.13,"end":11164.13,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":11165.1,"end":11169.1,"text":"他重點是他做到事前預防全程監控"},{"start":11169.1,"end":11171.1,"text":"來降低風險"},{"start":11171.1,"end":11173.1,"text":"我們就仰賴這個制度"},{"start":11173.1,"end":11176.1,"text":"今天有其他委員講HACCP"},{"start":11176.1,"end":11180.1,"text":"大家也講到了管制的節點都沒有落實"},{"start":11180.1,"end":11183.1,"text":"每一個節點都出問題"},{"start":11183.1,"end":11186.1,"text":"但我現在要跟你講早就知道了"},{"start":11186.1,"end":11188.1,"text":"2021年"},{"start":11188.29,"end":11191.29,"text":"食藥署跟各地方衛生局"},{"start":11191.29,"end":11193.29,"text":"去查了一遍"},{"start":11193.29,"end":11198.29,"text":"所有全台灣的大型油廠都去查了一遍"},{"start":11198.29,"end":11201.29,"text":"有沒有符合HACCP"},{"start":11201.29,"end":11203.29,"text":"查過了"},{"start":11204.19,"end":11205.19,"text":"而且呢"},{"start":11205.19,"end":11207.19,"text":"早就知道"},{"start":11207.14,"end":11209.14,"text":"這一些大型的油廠"},{"start":11209.14,"end":11211.14,"text":"包括中聯油脂"},{"start":11211.14,"end":11215.14,"text":"他整個生產的管理弱點問題出在哪裡"},{"start":11215.14,"end":11217.14,"text":"早就知道了"},{"start":11218.68,"end":11220.68,"text":"你看他的報告"},{"start":11220.68,"end":11222.68,"text":"所以他那個事情"},{"start":11222.68,"end":11224.68,"text":"他不是等到超標"},{"start":11224.68,"end":11226.68,"text":"然後再下架再回收"},{"start":11226.68,"end":11229.68,"text":"我們現在才要來看這一份報告"},{"start":11230.82,"end":11232.82,"text":"他有沒有發揮作用"},{"start":11233.21,"end":11235.21,"text":"他本篇筆跟這個PACE"},{"start":11235.21,"end":11237.21,"text":"有沒有被列為明確危害"},{"start":11239.44,"end":11240.44,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":11240.76,"end":11242.76,"text":"還是列為環境污染物質"},{"start":11244.05,"end":11245.05,"text":"第二個"},{"start":11245.05,"end":11247.05,"text":"原料驗收製程操作"},{"start":11247.05,"end":11249.05,"text":"油槽儲存混槽出貨放行"},{"start":11249.05,"end":11251.05,"text":"有沒有設計出在出貨前"},{"start":11251.05,"end":11254.05,"text":"要攔下風險的監測程序"},{"start":11254.05,"end":11255.05,"text":"第三個"},{"start":11255.05,"end":11257.05,"text":"驗到異常時"},{"start":11257.05,"end":11259.05,"text":"矯正措施"},{"start":11259.05,"end":11261.05,"text":"業者到底是停用封存通報"},{"start":11261.05,"end":11263.05,"text":"還是現在看到的中聯油脂"},{"start":11263.05,"end":11265.05,"text":"就是復驗開會"},{"start":11265.05,"end":11267.05,"text":"隱秘隱瞞"},{"start":11268.36,"end":11269.36,"text":"蛤"},{"start":11270.59,"end":11272.59,"text":"那請問你們食藥署署長"},{"start":11273.97,"end":11275.97,"text":"當時這份報告出來"},{"start":11277,"end":11278,"text":"然後"},{"start":11278.77,"end":11283.77,"text":"這個HACCP的管制這些流程"},{"start":11283.77,"end":11286.77,"text":"到底有沒有符合和落實"},{"start":11286.77,"end":11287.77,"text":"署長有沒有"},{"start":11289.53,"end":11291.53,"text":"這套制度在現場有沒有落實"},{"start":11291.53,"end":11294.53,"text":"如果以我們這一次調查這個中聯"},{"start":11294.53,"end":11296.53,"text":"他有好幾個管制點"},{"start":11296.53,"end":11299.53,"text":"沒有符合這個管制要求"},{"start":11299.53,"end":11301.53,"text":"不是中聯而已啦"},{"start":11301.53,"end":11302.53,"text":"我現在告訴你"},{"start":11302.53,"end":11305.53,"text":"使用油脂業的HACCP"},{"start":11305.53,"end":11307.53,"text":"都是做表面的"},{"start":11307.53,"end":11308.53,"text":"做樣子的啦"},{"start":11308.53,"end":11311.53,"text":"完全沒有發揮預警的功能"},{"start":11311.53,"end":11313.53,"text":"這個不是我說了算"},{"start":11313.53,"end":11314.53,"text":"這個是你們"},{"start":11314.53,"end":11316.53,"text":"食藥署跟地方政府"},{"start":11316.53,"end":11319.53,"text":"去查查你的結果報告在這裡"},{"start":11319.53,"end":11321.53,"text":"來早就知道了"},{"start":11322.94,"end":11326.94,"text":"107年到109年之間"},{"start":11326.94,"end":11328.94,"text":"地方政府加中央"},{"start":11328.94,"end":11330.94,"text":"共去63家"},{"start":11330.94,"end":11333.94,"text":"使用油脂的工廠的查核"},{"start":11333.94,"end":11334.94,"text":"這份報告是"},{"start":11334.94,"end":11338.94,"text":"根據63家工廠的查核的結果來的"},{"start":11338.94,"end":11339.94,"text":"好"},{"start":11340.72,"end":11342.72,"text":"裡面查核報告說"},{"start":11342.72,"end":11346.72,"text":"在於登錄資訊追溯追蹤系統的符合率"},{"start":11346.72,"end":11347.72,"text":"大概八成"},{"start":11347.72,"end":11350.72,"text":"這63家八成以上都符合"},{"start":11350.72,"end":11354.72,"text":"但是食品安全的管制系統準則"},{"start":11354.72,"end":11356.72,"text":"也就是HACCP"},{"start":11356.72,"end":11359.72,"text":"出查符合率低於六成"},{"start":11359.72,"end":11363.72,"text":"主要缺失就是沒有落實文件或記錄管理"},{"start":11364.75,"end":11365.75,"text":"署長"},{"start":11365.75,"end":11369.75,"text":"當時這份研究報告提到HACCP有哪些"},{"start":11370.2,"end":11374.2,"text":"沒有落實文件管理也沒有落實記錄管理"},{"start":11374.2,"end":11376.2,"text":"整個不合格率"},{"start":11376.2,"end":11379.2,"text":"大概超過大概四成的"},{"start":11380.29,"end":11381.29,"text":"署長"},{"start":11381.93,"end":11383.93,"text":"有哪些缺失項目"},{"start":11385.51,"end":11386.51,"text":"不知道"},{"start":11387.1,"end":11389.1,"text":"署長你是一定不知道"},{"start":11389.78,"end":11391.78,"text":"食藥署應該要知道吧"},{"start":11391.78,"end":11392.78,"text":"你們自己報告署長"},{"start":11394.45,"end":11395.45,"text":"哈"},{"start":11395.53,"end":11399.53,"text":"HACCP在2021年的報告就講了"},{"start":11399.53,"end":11401.53,"text":"對上面的報告有"},{"start":11401.53,"end":11404.53,"text":"這個部分我們在二級的驗證裡面"},{"start":11404.53,"end":11406.53,"text":"我們也的確在這次的修法"},{"start":11406.53,"end":11408.53,"text":"我們認為它的製程的確效"},{"start":11408.53,"end":11411.53,"text":"跟HACCP每一個節點我們會再加強的"},{"start":11412.59,"end":11415.59,"text":"我在講2021年的報告講什麼"},{"start":11415.59,"end":11417.59,"text":"你看清楚看仔細一下"},{"start":11419.29,"end":11420.29,"text":"哈"},{"start":11420.29,"end":11421.29,"text":"它有什麼缺失項目"},{"start":11422.14,"end":11425.14,"text":"然後你們到現在都還找不到發生的原因"},{"start":11425.14,"end":11428.14,"text":"再去把這份報告拿出來看一下嘛"},{"start":11428.14,"end":11432.14,"text":"它的缺失項目集中在食品安全管制小組"},{"start":11432.14,"end":11433.14,"text":"產品加工流程圖"},{"start":11433.14,"end":11435.14,"text":"危害分析和重要管制點"},{"start":11435.14,"end":11438.14,"text":"建立管制界限和監測程序"},{"start":11438.14,"end":11441.14,"text":"制定矯正措施和確認系統"},{"start":11441.14,"end":11443.14,"text":"文件還有記錄管理"},{"start":11443.14,"end":11445.14,"text":"然後這裡面發生什麼事情了"},{"start":11445.14,"end":11448.14,"text":"在食品安全管制小組裡面"},{"start":11448.14,"end":11451.14,"text":"2021年就是107到109年"},{"start":11451.14,"end":11454.14,"text":"查這63家的油廠公司"},{"start":11454.14,"end":11455.14,"text":"油廠啦"},{"start":11455.14,"end":11457.14,"text":"自由工廠啦"},{"start":11457.14,"end":11463.14,"text":"他們無法提出具定期召開計畫相關會議的記錄"},{"start":11463.14,"end":11466.14,"text":"他們工程裡面沒有照法律規定"},{"start":11466.14,"end":11467.14,"text":"沒有照法規規定"},{"start":11467.14,"end":11469.14,"text":"沒有開會沒有檢討"},{"start":11469.14,"end":11471.14,"text":"沒有擬定計畫的啦"},{"start":11471.14,"end":11472.14,"text":"第二個"},{"start":11472.14,"end":11473.14,"text":"在加工"},{"start":11473.14,"end":11475.14,"text":"食品加工的流程圖上"},{"start":11475.14,"end":11477.14,"text":"各從各個原料"},{"start":11478.59,"end":11481.59,"text":"這個原物料的驗收直到運送所有步驟"},{"start":11481.59,"end":11487.59,"text":"從來沒有實際加工流程或危害分析表的相符"},{"start":11487.59,"end":11492.59,"text":"他們所有的加工流程跟危害分析表"},{"start":11492.59,"end":11495.59,"text":"圖表資料都不相符啦"},{"start":11496.85,"end":11500.85,"text":"為名列辦成品或相關副產品的相關步驟"},{"start":11500.85,"end":11503.85,"text":"然後這個研究分析特別提到"},{"start":11503.85,"end":11505.85,"text":"特別是使用油脂工廠"},{"start":11505.85,"end":11509.85,"text":"異於忽略靜置沉澱或暫存等過程"},{"start":11509.85,"end":11512.85,"text":"各廠因與製作流程圖時"},{"start":11512.85,"end":11514.85,"text":"清零作業現場"},{"start":11514.85,"end":11516.85,"text":"逐一確認加工步驟"},{"start":11516.85,"end":11517.85,"text":"通通沒有在管的啦"},{"start":11517.85,"end":11518.85,"text":"沒有"},{"start":11520.17,"end":11521.17,"text":"第三個"},{"start":11521.17,"end":11525.17,"text":"在危害分析和重要管制點上"},{"start":11525.17,"end":11529.17,"text":"沒有在所有步驟上進行危害分析啦"},{"start":11531.84,"end":11533.84,"text":"所有步驟都要進行危害分析"},{"start":11533.84,"end":11534.84,"text":"他們沒有在做"},{"start":11534.84,"end":11538.84,"text":"然後缺乏危害發生頻率和嚴重性的佐證"},{"start":11539.54,"end":11542.54,"text":"所以計畫內容常常沒有看到"},{"start":11542.54,"end":11545.54,"text":"為強烈危害項目"},{"start":11545.54,"end":11547.54,"text":"緊禮病原性的微生物"},{"start":11547.54,"end":11550.54,"text":"環境污染物質概括分類"},{"start":11551.98,"end":11554.98,"text":"都沒有這個提出具"},{"start":11555.98,"end":11559.98,"text":"分析依據辨別發生機率防治措施"},{"start":11559.98,"end":11564.98,"text":"沒有提供辦定重要管制點的合理佐證"},{"start":11564.98,"end":11566.98,"text":"通通都沒有"},{"start":11566.98,"end":11568.98,"text":"只有微生物啦"},{"start":11568.98,"end":11570.98,"text":"環境污染物這樣概括性"},{"start":11571.72,"end":11574.72,"text":"這個是一個HACCP的工廠"},{"start":11576.57,"end":11578.57,"text":"可以這樣子做嗎"},{"start":11579.94,"end":11581.94,"text":"所以你們的報告還建議"},{"start":11581.94,"end":11583.94,"text":"要叫他們這些業者"},{"start":11583.94,"end":11585.94,"text":"參考微生主管機關"},{"start":11585.94,"end":11588.94,"text":"在官網所提供的計畫範本外"},{"start":11588.94,"end":11592.94,"text":"你們還建議他們要試實際作業情形"},{"start":11592.94,"end":11594.94,"text":"收集科學知識食品事件"},{"start":11594.94,"end":11597.94,"text":"或廠內製程記錄"},{"start":11597.94,"end":11599.94,"text":"逐步修正計畫內容"},{"start":11599.94,"end":11601.94,"text":"換言之啦"},{"start":11601.94,"end":11602.94,"text":"實用工廠"},{"start":11602.94,"end":11604.94,"text":"實用油紙的工廠"},{"start":11604.94,"end":11606.94,"text":"通常只是給主管機關"},{"start":11607.04,"end":11609.04,"text":"這個交差"},{"start":11609.04,"end":11611.04,"text":"然後書面交差了"},{"start":11611.04,"end":11613.04,"text":"勸你們在這個報告裡面"},{"start":11613.04,"end":11615.04,"text":"也沒有詳列各家工廠的實際"},{"start":11615.04,"end":11617.04,"text":"查驗起來什麼狀況啦"},{"start":11618.4,"end":11619.4,"text":"但是你們就知道"},{"start":11619.4,"end":11621.4,"text":"你們都不合格不合格啦"},{"start":11621.74,"end":11622.74,"text":"然後接下來"},{"start":11622.74,"end":11625.74,"text":"監力管制界線跟監測程序"},{"start":11625.74,"end":11627.74,"text":"這63家"},{"start":11627.74,"end":11629.74,"text":"最核心的那幾家油廠"},{"start":11630.89,"end":11632.89,"text":"沒有各廠常見"},{"start":11632.89,"end":11635.89,"text":"未與現場實際作業相符"},{"start":11636.39,"end":11639.39,"text":"未與現場實際作業相符"},{"start":11639.39,"end":11642.39,"text":"他們的計畫跟作業現場都不相符啦"},{"start":11642.39,"end":11646.39,"text":"缺乏驗效或佐證資料啦"},{"start":11647.02,"end":11649.02,"text":"監察管制界線"},{"start":11649.02,"end":11652.02,"text":"英語監測參數直接相關"},{"start":11652.83,"end":11653.83,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":11654.63,"end":11655.63,"text":"你們還建議他說"},{"start":11655.63,"end":11657.63,"text":"油品過濾的步驟"},{"start":11657.63,"end":11659.63,"text":"要怎麼樣做怎麼樣做"},{"start":11659.63,"end":11660.63,"text":"所以你就發現"},{"start":11660.63,"end":11661.63,"text":"你們當時就發現"},{"start":11661.63,"end":11664.63,"text":"他們經常性的假數據作假"},{"start":11664.63,"end":11667.63,"text":"然後書面的跟實際生產的"},{"start":11667.63,"end":11669.63,"text":"完全不符合"},{"start":11670.6,"end":11672.6,"text":"2021年你們報告就知道了"},{"start":11672.6,"end":11676.6,"text":"2018年到2020年"},{"start":11676.81,"end":11679.81,"text":"你們地方政府也都知道了"},{"start":11679.81,"end":11681.81,"text":"中央地方通通都知道"},{"start":11681.81,"end":11684.81,"text":"這些大型的油紙工廠"},{"start":11685.19,"end":11686.19,"text":"問題很多"},{"start":11686.19,"end":11688.19,"text":"造假很多"},{"start":11688.19,"end":11690.19,"text":"不符合規定很多"},{"start":11690.19,"end":11691.19,"text":"HACCP"},{"start":11692.38,"end":11694.38,"text":"倫理形式啦"},{"start":11694.38,"end":11696.38,"text":"接下來大家看"},{"start":11697.41,"end":11700.41,"text":"制定矯正措施和確認系統"},{"start":11700.41,"end":11702.41,"text":"當監測的結果顯示"},{"start":11702.41,"end":11704.41,"text":"偏離管制界線或異常時"},{"start":11704.41,"end":11706.41,"text":"應該立即採取矯正措施"},{"start":11706.41,"end":11708.41,"text":"但是你看你們查掌"},{"start":11708.41,"end":11710.41,"text":"沒有落實確認程序"},{"start":11710.41,"end":11713.41,"text":"為完整建立矯正措施或確認程序"},{"start":11714.35,"end":11715.35,"text":"所以你呢"},{"start":11715.74,"end":11716.74,"text":"這個"},{"start":11716.74,"end":11718.74,"text":"嚴定矯正內容的時候"},{"start":11718.74,"end":11720.74,"text":"容易遺漏異常產品的處理"},{"start":11721.86,"end":11724.86,"text":"當食品因變異至違反規定"},{"start":11724.86,"end":11725.86,"text":"有危害健康治癒者"},{"start":11725.86,"end":11728.86,"text":"應有適當回收處理銷毀的"},{"start":11728.86,"end":11729.86,"text":"作業流程"},{"start":11729.86,"end":11730.86,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":11730.86,"end":11731.86,"text":"都沒有落實"},{"start":11731.86,"end":11732.86,"text":"沒有"},{"start":11733.3,"end":11735.3,"text":"今天流出去了"},{"start":11735.3,"end":11736.3,"text":"就是這樣子"},{"start":11736.29,"end":11737.29,"text":"你們早就知道了"},{"start":11737.29,"end":11738.29,"text":"再來"},{"start":11738.29,"end":11740.29,"text":"在文件及記錄管制上"},{"start":11740.29,"end":11743.29,"text":"你們的HACCP系統"},{"start":11743.29,"end":11744.29,"text":"很多"},{"start":11744.29,"end":11746.29,"text":"包括方法標準"},{"start":11746.29,"end":11747.29,"text":"各種檢驗結果"},{"start":11747.29,"end":11748.29,"text":"都要做成書面記錄"},{"start":11748.29,"end":11750.29,"text":"連同相關文件一樣會成為檔案"},{"start":11750.29,"end":11752.29,"text":"經查各廠"},{"start":11752.29,"end":11754.29,"text":"提具上開資料"},{"start":11754.29,"end":11758.29,"text":"都有未確實簽署及註記的日期"},{"start":11758.29,"end":11762.29,"text":"無法提具相關資料或記錄內容"},{"start":11763.68,"end":11765.68,"text":"2021年的報告都早知道了"},{"start":11765.68,"end":11768.68,"text":"他們這些油紙工廠"},{"start":11769.89,"end":11772.89,"text":"都資料提供不全"},{"start":11772.89,"end":11775.89,"text":"沒有確實簽署沒有註記日期"},{"start":11777.63,"end":11778.63,"text":"嗯"},{"start":11778.92,"end":11779.92,"text":"你們早就知道了"},{"start":11780.62,"end":11783.62,"text":"所以你們知道他們文件記錄不落實"},{"start":11783.62,"end":11787.62,"text":"HACCP出查符合率低於六成"},{"start":11787.91,"end":11788.91,"text":"合格率"},{"start":11788.91,"end":11790.91,"text":"只有四成多"},{"start":11792.3,"end":11795.3,"text":"那有沒有針對這個報告之後"},{"start":11795.3,"end":11799.3,"text":"列為後續追蹤改善的這個管制啊"},{"start":11799.3,"end":11801.3,"text":"有沒有不預警的抽查"},{"start":11801.3,"end":11804.3,"text":"有沒有回頭去查當年的缺失"},{"start":11804.3,"end":11806.3,"text":"有沒有真的持續改善"},{"start":11806.3,"end":11809.3,"text":"有沒有把HACCP文件記錄不落實的"},{"start":11809.3,"end":11813.3,"text":"列為使用油紙業的高風險指標"},{"start":11813.3,"end":11814.3,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":11814.3,"end":11815.3,"text":"好跟委員說明"},{"start":11815.3,"end":11817.3,"text":"謝謝委員這麼詳細的"},{"start":11817.3,"end":11820.3,"text":"把我們這個報告檢視一遍"},{"start":11820.3,"end":11822.3,"text":"那第一個這個是"},{"start":11822.3,"end":11824.3,"text":"出查的缺失率"},{"start":11824.3,"end":11828.3,"text":"所以這每一案其實後面都有追蹤改善"},{"start":11828.3,"end":11830.3,"text":"這是第一次這個地方"},{"start":11830.3,"end":11831.3,"text":"你們查了三年"},{"start":11831.3,"end":11832.3,"text":"進去"},{"start":11832.3,"end":11833.3,"text":"你們查了三年"},{"start":11833.3,"end":11835.3,"text":"對這個就是統計起來的"},{"start":11835.3,"end":11837.3,"text":"這是從107到109"},{"start":11837.3,"end":11839.3,"text":"這個是比較早期的啦"},{"start":11839.3,"end":11842.3,"text":"所以當時候查完之後都還要去追蹤"},{"start":11842.3,"end":11843.3,"text":"他有沒有這樣改"},{"start":11843.3,"end":11845.3,"text":"所以他都有改善的記錄"},{"start":11845.3,"end":11847.3,"text":"同時把這個記錄資料"},{"start":11847.3,"end":11849.3,"text":"還會交給地方"},{"start":11849.3,"end":11851.3,"text":"那麼再做後續的年度的追蹤"},{"start":11851.3,"end":11853.3,"text":"所以這個都有照這樣做啦"},{"start":11853.3,"end":11855.3,"text":"所以這個是出查"},{"start":11855.3,"end":11857.3,"text":"最好是有照這樣子做啦"},{"start":11857.3,"end":11860.3,"text":"從中年油紙來看是沒有這樣子做啦"},{"start":11861.5,"end":11864.5,"text":"從中年油紙這一次的事情來看"},{"start":11864.5,"end":11868.5,"text":"從2021年報告到現在一樣"},{"start":11868.5,"end":11870.5,"text":"一樣沒有落實"},{"start":11870.5,"end":11871.5,"text":"一樣沒有改善"},{"start":11871.5,"end":11874.5,"text":"一樣只有對政府取以為宜啦"},{"start":11874.5,"end":11876.5,"text":"哪裡有改善"},{"start":11876.5,"end":11877.5,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":11877.5,"end":11879.5,"text":"從中年油紙這個個案來看"},{"start":11879.5,"end":11880.5,"text":"有改善嗎"},{"start":11881.6,"end":11883.6,"text":"冰凍三尺"},{"start":11883.6,"end":11885.6,"text":"非一日之痕"},{"start":11885.6,"end":11888.6,"text":"油紙工廠這一些油紙業者"},{"start":11888.6,"end":11890.6,"text":"長期就是這樣子"},{"start":11891.44,"end":11892.44,"text":"所以我再問你們啦"},{"start":11892.44,"end":11893.44,"text":"署長"},{"start":11894.49,"end":11896.49,"text":"這個你說他有落實了"},{"start":11896.49,"end":11899.49,"text":"你說他有改善了"},{"start":11899.49,"end":11902.49,"text":"那為什麼還會發生中年這個事情"},{"start":11904.06,"end":11906.06,"text":"為什麼還會發生這個事情"},{"start":11906.71,"end":11910.71,"text":"當然這個還有後續追蹤的頻率啦"},{"start":11910.71,"end":11912.71,"text":"這個查完之後當然"},{"start":11912.71,"end":11915.71,"text":"他會對這一次的查核結果做改善"},{"start":11915.71,"end":11917.71,"text":"但是後面的年度"},{"start":11917.71,"end":11919.71,"text":"還是需要繼續追蹤啦"},{"start":11919.71,"end":11921.71,"text":"所以那個追蹤的程度"},{"start":11921.71,"end":11922.71,"text":"蛤"},{"start":11922.71,"end":11926.71,"text":"所以業者自主管理這種事情就不行嘛"},{"start":11927.97,"end":11930.97,"text":"你這樣講之後後續要繼續追蹤"},{"start":11930.97,"end":11933.97,"text":"他改善給政府看完以後就不遵守了"},{"start":11933.97,"end":11937.97,"text":"改善是為了取以為宜給政府看的嘛"},{"start":11938.64,"end":11940.64,"text":"看完以後我就"},{"start":11940.93,"end":11941.93,"text":"固態附盟"},{"start":11941.93,"end":11943.93,"text":"維持原狀"},{"start":11943.93,"end":11945.93,"text":"繼續擺爛"},{"start":11946.33,"end":11948.33,"text":"那我們來看中聯郵紙啦"},{"start":11948.33,"end":11949.33,"text":"我不是要具體"},{"start":11949.33,"end":11952.33,"text":"只是談HACCP的這個報告而已"},{"start":11952.33,"end":11955.33,"text":"我們來對應中聯郵紙來看啦"},{"start":11955.33,"end":11957.33,"text":"你看中聯郵紙7月6號"},{"start":11957.33,"end":11959.33,"text":"自己公佈在網站上的資料"},{"start":11960.93,"end":11962.93,"text":"拜拜"},{"start":11962.01,"end":11964.01,"text":"他現在呢"},{"start":11963.82,"end":11965.82,"text":"2021"},{"start":11965.82,"end":11966.82,"text":"他現在2021"},{"start":11966.82,"end":11967.82,"text":"2022"},{"start":11967.82,"end":11968.82,"text":"2023"},{"start":11968.82,"end":11969.82,"text":"以及今年"},{"start":11969.82,"end":11971.82,"text":"都出現了這個PACE"},{"start":11971.82,"end":11973.82,"text":"就是多環方向拼"},{"start":11973.82,"end":11976.82,"text":"快要超過監測指標值10ppb的"},{"start":11976.82,"end":11978.82,"text":"這一些數據啦"},{"start":11978.82,"end":11980.82,"text":"就是說美國豆都是零減出嘛"},{"start":11980.82,"end":11982.82,"text":"然後巴西豆都有減出嘛"},{"start":11983.9,"end":11984.9,"text":"好"},{"start":11984.9,"end":11985.9,"text":"那我呢"},{"start":11986.17,"end":11989.17,"text":"111年4月25的這個4PACE"},{"start":11989.17,"end":11991.17,"text":"已經達到8.7ppb"},{"start":11992.45,"end":11994.45,"text":"今年的4月22"},{"start":11994.45,"end":11996.45,"text":"那個BAP也達到1.6ppb"},{"start":11996.45,"end":11998.45,"text":"都是零介質啦"},{"start":11998.45,"end":12000.45,"text":"離門檻也不很遠"},{"start":12000.45,"end":12002.45,"text":"所以"},{"start":12002.45,"end":12003.45,"text":"他其實都看了"},{"start":12003.45,"end":12005.45,"text":"他自己偷偷的放上去的喔"},{"start":12006.29,"end":12008.29,"text":"哈"},{"start":12007.34,"end":12009.34,"text":"那我們就看到這種狀況的時候"},{"start":12009.34,"end":12011.34,"text":"你如果真的有HACCP"},{"start":12011.34,"end":12013.34,"text":"這個制度有運作啦"},{"start":12014.74,"end":12016.74,"text":"如果HACCP制度"},{"start":12016.74,"end":12018.74,"text":"真的有運作的話"},{"start":12018.74,"end":12020.74,"text":"那我們是不是要有"},{"start":12020.74,"end":12021.74,"text":"危害分析"},{"start":12021.74,"end":12023.74,"text":"要有重要管制點"},{"start":12023.74,"end":12025.74,"text":"然後就要有應驗的對策"},{"start":12027.75,"end":12029.75,"text":"然後他們有嗎?他們有做嗎?"},{"start":12031.59,"end":12033.59,"text":"所以原本是"},{"start":12033.59,"end":12035.59,"text":"把歷年的BAP啦"},{"start":12035.59,"end":12036.59,"text":"4PACE啦"},{"start":12036.59,"end":12039.59,"text":"偏高的數值納入HACCP的危害分析"},{"start":12039.59,"end":12041.59,"text":"要設定原料驗收"},{"start":12041.59,"end":12042.59,"text":"出油檢測"},{"start":12042.59,"end":12043.59,"text":"精煉脫臭"},{"start":12043.59,"end":12044.59,"text":"油槽管線"},{"start":12044.59,"end":12046.59,"text":"混批流樣"},{"start":12046.59,"end":12048.59,"text":"還有成品犯行等重要管制點"},{"start":12048.59,"end":12050.59,"text":"那一旦數值啊"},{"start":12050.59,"end":12051.59,"text":"反覆偏高"},{"start":12051.59,"end":12053.59,"text":"就要啟動原因分析"},{"start":12053.59,"end":12054.59,"text":"加密檢驗"},{"start":12054.59,"end":12056.59,"text":"暫停放顯號異常矯正"},{"start":12056.59,"end":12058.59,"text":"那你主管機關"},{"start":12058.59,"end":12060.59,"text":"他地方政府去稽查"},{"start":12060.59,"end":12062.59,"text":"也不是只有看檢驗報告是否合格"},{"start":12062.59,"end":12065.59,"text":"還要看歷年趨勢產地批次差異"},{"start":12065.59,"end":12068.59,"text":"各重要管制點的監測數據"},{"start":12068.59,"end":12070.59,"text":"原料到成品各階段的變化"},{"start":12070.59,"end":12072.59,"text":"檢驗結果出來前是否已經出貨"},{"start":12072.59,"end":12076.59,"text":"以及下游檢驗跟上游流樣是不是一致"},{"start":12076.59,"end":12078.59,"text":"結果你們的HACCP"},{"start":12078.59,"end":12080.59,"text":"為什麼沒有辦法把關到這一些"},{"start":12080.59,"end":12081.59,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":12083.39,"end":12085.39,"text":"這一次我們會來強化"},{"start":12085.39,"end":12087.39,"text":"改善這個HACCP"},{"start":12087.39,"end":12089.39,"text":"這一次我們都吃下去吞下去了"},{"start":12089.39,"end":12090.39,"text":"你才說要"},{"start":12090.39,"end":12093.39,"text":"這一次我們都吃下去吞下去"},{"start":12093.39,"end":12095.39,"text":"你才說你要強化才要改善"},{"start":12095.39,"end":12098.39,"text":"我現在是告訴你2021年就知道了"},{"start":12098.39,"end":12102.39,"text":"結果我們看到的HACCP制度"},{"start":12102.39,"end":12105.39,"text":"變成只是文件查核"},{"start":12105.39,"end":12106.39,"text":"官樣文章"},{"start":12106.39,"end":12111.39,"text":"而不是真正的風險把關的制度"},{"start":12112.55,"end":12119.55,"text":"所以我們的HACCP變成做假的HACCP"},{"start":12120.67,"end":12122.67,"text":"所以我們來對應第一個缺失"},{"start":12122.67,"end":12124.67,"text":"危害分析不具體"},{"start":12128.63,"end":12130.63,"text":"這個BAP"},{"start":12130.63,"end":12132.63,"text":"本篇筆或者是PAHS"},{"start":12132.63,"end":12134.63,"text":"你是把它放"},{"start":12134.63,"end":12136.63,"text":"它是都沒有分類"},{"start":12136.63,"end":12138.63,"text":"它把它放到環境污染物質"},{"start":12139.59,"end":12141.59,"text":"還是微生物"},{"start":12141.59,"end":12143.59,"text":"他們這次放到哪裡去"},{"start":12144.72,"end":12146.72,"text":"你們不是有去查場了嗎"},{"start":12146.72,"end":12148.72,"text":"沒有特別裂項"},{"start":12148.72,"end":12150.72,"text":"它沒有特別裂項"},{"start":12150.27,"end":12152.27,"text":"它應該要裂成化學危害"},{"start":12154.33,"end":12156.33,"text":"坦坦坦"},{"start":12156.54,"end":12161.54,"text":"每一個環節原料儲存壓榨精煉"},{"start":12162.2,"end":12164.2,"text":"油潮暫存混潮錯誤放行"},{"start":12164.2,"end":12166.2,"text":"都有可能發生"},{"start":12166.2,"end":12168.2,"text":"它很可能發生污染"},{"start":12168.2,"end":12170.2,"text":"或者是它就"},{"start":12170.13,"end":12172.13,"text":"檢驗都必須要落實"},{"start":12172.13,"end":12174.13,"text":"才能夠圍堵"},{"start":12174.13,"end":12176.13,"text":"那一個油品的流出風險的擴大"},{"start":12176.13,"end":12180.13,"text":"所以它必須很嚴重的去管制它"},{"start":12180.13,"end":12182.13,"text":"它絕對是一個管制點"},{"start":12182.13,"end":12184.13,"text":"而且都有這些數據出來了"},{"start":12184.52,"end":12186.52,"text":"結果它沒有把BAP"},{"start":12186.52,"end":12188.52,"text":"沒有把PAHS"},{"start":12188.52,"end":12192.52,"text":"列為危害重要的管制點"},{"start":12192.98,"end":12196.98,"text":"它連列為風險物質可能都沒有"},{"start":12196.98,"end":12200.98,"text":"那這個HACCP有在運作嗎"},{"start":12202.77,"end":12204.77,"text":"我是要從中聯有史萊坦搞不好"},{"start":12204.77,"end":12206.77,"text":"整個國家"},{"start":12206.77,"end":12208.77,"text":"所有食品業者的HACCP制度"},{"start":12208.77,"end":12210.77,"text":"都是做假的"},{"start":12210.77,"end":12212.77,"text":"都是做樣子的"},{"start":12214.48,"end":12218.48,"text":"我們台灣中華民國的HACCP制度"},{"start":12219.17,"end":12221.17,"text":"是不是都是瓦解了"},{"start":12221.17,"end":12223.17,"text":"早就沒用了"},{"start":12224.43,"end":12226.43,"text":"第二個缺失我們再看"},{"start":12226.43,"end":12230.43,"text":"管制界線跟監測程序沒有對上現場"},{"start":12230.43,"end":12232.43,"text":"你的作業程序不相符"},{"start":12232.43,"end":12234.43,"text":"缺乏驗收或佐證資料"},{"start":12234.43,"end":12242.43,"text":"然後中聯有史萊坦對本篇筆BAPHS的監測程序是什麼"},{"start":12242.42,"end":12246.42,"text":"檢測出來前能不能出貨"},{"start":12246.42,"end":12248.42,"text":"那它自主檢驗"},{"start":12248.24,"end":12250.24,"text":"它的管制點設在哪裡"},{"start":12251.92,"end":12255.92,"text":"這些檢驗能不能在出貨以前發揮管制作用"},{"start":12255.92,"end":12257.92,"text":"還是變成產品的出貨了"},{"start":12257.92,"end":12259.92,"text":"報告出來了"},{"start":12259.92,"end":12261.92,"text":"還繼續做還不管報告"},{"start":12261.92,"end":12263.92,"text":"還繼續把毒油流出來"},{"start":12264.92,"end":12268.92,"text":"如果檢驗的結果不能決定放行"},{"start":12268.92,"end":12270.92,"text":"檢驗就不是"},{"start":12270.92,"end":12275.92,"text":"檢驗的結果不能決定管制不放行"},{"start":12275.92,"end":12278.92,"text":"檢驗就不是一個管制點了"},{"start":12279.87,"end":12281.87,"text":"檢驗成為一個管制點"},{"start":12281.87,"end":12283.87,"text":"是檢驗出來有問題"},{"start":12283.87,"end":12285.87,"text":"絕對不能繼續生產"},{"start":12285.87,"end":12287.87,"text":"不能出貨"},{"start":12288.27,"end":12290.27,"text":"它才是一個管制點"},{"start":12290.6,"end":12292.6,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":12292,"end":12294,"text":"它只是一個事後資料"},{"start":12294,"end":12296,"text":"它繼續生產繼續出貨"},{"start":12296,"end":12299,"text":"然後報告出來只是一個事後的資料"},{"start":12300.03,"end":12305.03,"text":"這一種HACCP制度叫做HACCP嗎"},{"start":12305.03,"end":12307.03,"text":"部長你自己說一下"},{"start":12307.03,"end":12310.03,"text":"台灣這一種HACCP"},{"start":12310.03,"end":12313.03,"text":"還叫做HACCP嗎"},{"start":12314.51,"end":12316.51,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":12316.51,"end":12318.51,"text":"我們這一次已經在7月份就要求"},{"start":12318.51,"end":12320.51,"text":"這些油品呢"},{"start":12320.51,"end":12322.51,"text":"上游的最上游的這一層"},{"start":12322.51,"end":12324.51,"text":"要足批檢驗之後才能夠出貨"},{"start":12324.51,"end":12326.51,"text":"這是第一個改變"},{"start":12326.51,"end":12328.51,"text":"第二個HACCP是一個預警系統"},{"start":12328.51,"end":12330.51,"text":"就您剛剛提到的"},{"start":12330.51,"end":12332.51,"text":"它完全沒有預警"},{"start":12332.51,"end":12334.51,"text":"它不見得要等到你的下游"},{"start":12334.51,"end":12336.51,"text":"變速高標"},{"start":12336.51,"end":12338.51,"text":"要在前端呢"},{"start":12338.51,"end":12340.51,"text":"它是一個預警系統"},{"start":12340.51,"end":12342.51,"text":"去控制它的整個製程中的品質"},{"start":12342.51,"end":12344.51,"text":"你不要講這個理論啦"},{"start":12344.51,"end":12348.51,"text":"你講的理論我們都知道啦"},{"start":12348.51,"end":12352.51,"text":"現在所有食品廠的HACCP"},{"start":12352.51,"end":12354.51,"text":"如果就像中聯油紙"},{"start":12354.51,"end":12356.51,"text":"就像2021年"},{"start":12356.51,"end":12358.51,"text":"你們去查遍所有的油廠"},{"start":12358.51,"end":12360.51,"text":"所寫的報告一樣"},{"start":12361.22,"end":12363.22,"text":"那我可以在這裡宣布"},{"start":12363.22,"end":12365.22,"text":"國家的HACCP制度"},{"start":12365.22,"end":12367.22,"text":"已經不存在了"},{"start":12367.22,"end":12369.22,"text":"假的啦"},{"start":12369.22,"end":12371.22,"text":"好 再來"},{"start":12371.53,"end":12373.53,"text":"你管制點"},{"start":12373.53,"end":12375.53,"text":"然後要設監測"},{"start":12375.53,"end":12377.53,"text":"要管制界線"},{"start":12377.53,"end":12379.53,"text":"然後對應出來是要矯正措施"},{"start":12379.53,"end":12381.53,"text":"矯正措施大家都看到啦"},{"start":12381.53,"end":12383.53,"text":"出問題了啊"},{"start":12383.53,"end":12385.53,"text":"一定要停止生產"},{"start":12385.53,"end":12387.53,"text":"要回收"},{"start":12387.53,"end":12389.53,"text":"要下架 要銷毀"},{"start":12389.53,"end":12391.53,"text":"所以怎麼看呢"},{"start":12391.53,"end":12393.53,"text":"就是沒有嘛 什麼都沒有"},{"start":12393.53,"end":12395.53,"text":"它藉著復驗還繼續生產"},{"start":12392.9,"end":12394.9,"text":"所以第一個反應就是"},{"start":12394.9,"end":12396.9,"text":"再驗一次 再開會 再等結果"},{"start":12396.9,"end":12398.9,"text":"而那不是矯正措施"},{"start":12398.9,"end":12400.9,"text":"是繼續毒害人民"},{"start":12400.9,"end":12402.9,"text":"你這個HACCP也沒用"},{"start":12402.9,"end":12404.9,"text":"你這個HACCP也沒用"},{"start":12404.9,"end":12406.9,"text":"第四個"},{"start":12406.9,"end":12408.9,"text":"文件記錄不可信啦"},{"start":12408.9,"end":12410.9,"text":"你這報告就文件記錄都不可信"},{"start":12410.9,"end":12412.9,"text":"你這報告就文件記錄都不可信"},{"start":12412.9,"end":12414.9,"text":"對照中聯油紙這個案件"},{"start":12414.9,"end":12416.9,"text":"對照中聯油紙這個案件"},{"start":12416.9,"end":12418.9,"text":"更嚴重"},{"start":12418.9,"end":12420.9,"text":"它不只是產品超標"},{"start":12420.9,"end":12422.9,"text":"它沒有確實落實"},{"start":12422.9,"end":12424.9,"text":"連批號隱藏"},{"start":12424.9,"end":12426.9,"text":"它連檢驗結果本身都出現不一致"},{"start":12426.9,"end":12428.9,"text":"它的留存的樣本"},{"start":12428.9,"end":12430.9,"text":"跟下游檢出的東西"},{"start":12430.9,"end":12432.9,"text":"還不一樣"},{"start":12435.37,"end":12437.37,"text":"你要怎麼去釐清污染原因"},{"start":12437.37,"end":12439.37,"text":"檢驗結果還不一致"},{"start":12439.71,"end":12441.71,"text":"中聯整個自主管理失靈的零件"},{"start":12443.17,"end":12445.17,"text":"整個制度管理的失靈的環節"},{"start":12445.17,"end":12447.17,"text":"都要落實到記錄上"},{"start":12447.17,"end":12449.17,"text":"可是"},{"start":12449.41,"end":12451.41,"text":"現在連記錄都造假"},{"start":12451.41,"end":12453.41,"text":"樣品都是掉包的"},{"start":12453.41,"end":12455.41,"text":"然後故意隱匿"},{"start":12455.41,"end":12457.41,"text":"而你們早就知道"},{"start":12457.41,"end":12459.41,"text":"油紙廠都這樣子長期造假"},{"start":12461.49,"end":12463.49,"text":"然後沒有留記錄"},{"start":12464.51,"end":12466.51,"text":"記錄還是假的"},{"start":12468.16,"end":12470.16,"text":"它留的樣子"},{"start":12470.16,"end":12472.16,"text":"檢體從採樣封存保存驗送到交接"},{"start":12472.16,"end":12474.16,"text":"有沒有完成記錄"},{"start":12474.16,"end":12476.16,"text":"沒有"},{"start":12476.16,"end":12478.16,"text":"有沒有確實的誠實的申報"},{"start":12478.16,"end":12480.16,"text":"沒有"},{"start":12480.16,"end":12482.16,"text":"檢體放在哪裡"},{"start":12482.16,"end":12484.16,"text":"有沒有掉包"},{"start":12484.16,"end":12486.16,"text":"不知道"},{"start":12483.51,"end":12485.51,"text":"封緘編號簽收"},{"start":12485.98,"end":12487.98,"text":"連檢體的狀況都搞不清楚"},{"start":12487.98,"end":12489.98,"text":"所以你的"},{"start":12489.98,"end":12491.98,"text":"HACCP"},{"start":12491.98,"end":12493.98,"text":"HACCP"},{"start":12495.07,"end":12497.07,"text":"對趙中聯油紙來看"},{"start":12497.42,"end":12499.42,"text":"沒用嘛"},{"start":12499.42,"end":12501.42,"text":"對趙你的報告"},{"start":12501.42,"end":12503.42,"text":"2021年的報告"},{"start":12503.42,"end":12505.42,"text":"完全如出一轍"},{"start":12505.42,"end":12507.42,"text":"沒有改善沒有改進"},{"start":12507.71,"end":12509.71,"text":"中聯漏報批次"},{"start":12509.71,"end":12511.71,"text":"也證明業者的清澈"},{"start":12511.71,"end":12513.71,"text":"不能直接當成事實"},{"start":12513.71,"end":12515.71,"text":"不是真實"},{"start":12516.37,"end":12518.37,"text":"連提供給政府的清澈都是假的"},{"start":12518.37,"end":12520.37,"text":"多麼遏制"},{"start":12521.2,"end":12523.2,"text":"所以在這裡喔"},{"start":12523.73,"end":12525.73,"text":"本身這些資料"},{"start":12525.73,"end":12527.73,"text":"文件"},{"start":12527.73,"end":12529.73,"text":"你們2021年就講過了"},{"start":12529.73,"end":12531.73,"text":"文件資料如果沒有被驗證"},{"start":12531.73,"end":12533.73,"text":"追溯追蹤系統"},{"start":12533.73,"end":12535.73,"text":"就可能只是一份業者"},{"start":12535.73,"end":12537.73,"text":"自己填的資料"},{"start":12537.73,"end":12539.73,"text":"你的連追溯追蹤系統"},{"start":12539.73,"end":12541.73,"text":"都不可信"},{"start":12541.73,"end":12543.73,"text":"還什麼預警"},{"start":12543.73,"end":12545.73,"text":"發揮預警"},{"start":12547.02,"end":12549.02,"text":"他不是追溯追蹤系統而已"},{"start":12549.02,"end":12551.02,"text":"他連在你們的這個油品"},{"start":12551.02,"end":12553.02,"text":"HACCP裡面都是造假的"},{"start":12553.02,"end":12555.02,"text":"數據都不真實"},{"start":12557.26,"end":12559.26,"text":"那我們"},{"start":12559.26,"end":12561.26,"text":"我是要講說"},{"start":12560.5,"end":12564.5,"text":"107年2018到2020"},{"start":12564.5,"end":12568.5,"text":"地方政府都進去查過場都知道了"},{"start":12569.48,"end":12571.48,"text":"中央也跟地方一起進去"},{"start":12571.48,"end":12573.48,"text":"然後一起合作"},{"start":12573.48,"end":12575.48,"text":"一起產出這一個報告"},{"start":12575.48,"end":12577.48,"text":"這個報告"},{"start":12577.48,"end":12579.48,"text":"在開頭和結尾都提到"},{"start":12579.48,"end":12581.48,"text":"自107年起"},{"start":12581.48,"end":12583.48,"text":"衛福部公告擴大實施"},{"start":12583.48,"end":12585.48,"text":"食品安全管制系統"},{"start":12586.37,"end":12588.37,"text":"你們擴大了HACCP的管制系統"},{"start":12588.37,"end":12590.37,"text":"食藥署聯合地方衛生局"},{"start":12590.37,"end":12592.37,"text":"完成查核"},{"start":12592.37,"end":12594.37,"text":"食用油脂63加"},{"start":12594.37,"end":12596.37,"text":"為這篇分"},{"start":12596.37,"end":12598.37,"text":"研究分析報告的起頭"},{"start":12599.33,"end":12601.33,"text":"文章的結尾感謝"},{"start":12601.33,"end":12603.33,"text":"本文稽查數據"},{"start":12603.33,"end":12607.33,"text":"由各地方衛生局及食藥署"},{"start":12607.33,"end":12611.33,"text":"各區管中心同仁共同合作的成果"},{"start":12612.24,"end":12614.24,"text":"所以常常都知道"},{"start":12614.24,"end":12616.24,"text":"你們都知道"},{"start":12616.24,"end":12618.24,"text":"地方政府知道中央食藥署也知道"},{"start":12618.24,"end":12620.24,"text":"業者長期造假"},{"start":12620.24,"end":12624.24,"text":"業者長期在油品加工裡面"},{"start":12624.24,"end":12626.24,"text":"都是高風險"},{"start":12626.24,"end":12628.24,"text":"因為造假沒有危害分析"},{"start":12628.24,"end":12630.24,"text":"然後"},{"start":12630.24,"end":12632.24,"text":"也不落實該有的管制"},{"start":12632.24,"end":12634.24,"text":"沒有危害的管制點"},{"start":12634.24,"end":12636.24,"text":"然後也沒有因應的"},{"start":12636.24,"end":12638.24,"text":"處理的這個程序"},{"start":12638.24,"end":12640.24,"text":"長期重放"},{"start":12640.24,"end":12642.24,"text":"你們都知道"},{"start":12642.24,"end":12644.24,"text":"可是你們長期重放"},{"start":12644.24,"end":12646.24,"text":"長期讓人民吃下肚"},{"start":12648.91,"end":12650.91,"text":"那HACCP是假的"},{"start":12650.91,"end":12652.91,"text":"那人民真可憐"},{"start":12652.91,"end":12654.91,"text":"人民真可憐"},{"start":12654.91,"end":12656.91,"text":"因為政府長期都知道"},{"start":12657.87,"end":12659.87,"text":"實用油脂工廠的問題"},{"start":12660.75,"end":12662.75,"text":"很嚴重"},{"start":12663.76,"end":12665.76,"text":"記錄不落實"},{"start":12665.76,"end":12667.76,"text":"危害分析不具體"},{"start":12667.76,"end":12669.76,"text":"矯正措施不完整"},{"start":12669.76,"end":12671.76,"text":"記錄管理都是造假"},{"start":12673.78,"end":12675.78,"text":"所以我們是要講"},{"start":12676.56,"end":12678.56,"text":"地方跟中央"},{"start":12678.56,"end":12680.56,"text":"在那一次的實用油脂工廠查核"},{"start":12680.56,"end":12682.56,"text":"共同完成了以後"},{"start":12684.21,"end":12686.21,"text":"然後"},{"start":12686.21,"end":12688.21,"text":"有沒有要求地方"},{"start":12688.21,"end":12690.21,"text":"每年都要繼續查場"},{"start":12690.21,"end":12692.21,"text":"你的HACCP場"},{"start":12692.21,"end":12694.21,"text":"每年都要回報"},{"start":12694.21,"end":12696.21,"text":"轄內實用油脂工廠"},{"start":12696.21,"end":12698.21,"text":"HACCP的重大缺失"},{"start":12698.21,"end":12700.21,"text":"是不是重複發生"},{"start":12700.21,"end":12702.21,"text":"有沒有要求"},{"start":12701.96,"end":12703.96,"text":"不要說地方政府去查"},{"start":12703.96,"end":12705.96,"text":"一次兩次或幾次"},{"start":12705.96,"end":12707.96,"text":"查什麼才是重點"},{"start":12708.05,"end":12710.05,"text":"有沒有要求是要素"},{"start":12710.64,"end":12712.64,"text":"是要素"},{"start":12712.64,"end":12714.64,"text":"有沒有要求"},{"start":12714.64,"end":12716.64,"text":"你們要求他們具體改善"},{"start":12716.64,"end":12718.64,"text":"你們說他改善了"},{"start":12718.64,"end":12720.64,"text":"每年還有進去看嗎"},{"start":12718.55,"end":12719.55,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":12719.55,"end":12721.55,"text":"沒有"},{"start":12721.44,"end":12722.44,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":12722.44,"end":12724.44,"text":"這個是因為"},{"start":12724.44,"end":12725.44,"text":"如同您剛剛提到"},{"start":12725.44,"end":12728.44,"text":"剛好是新的HACCP"},{"start":12728.44,"end":12729.44,"text":"上路的時候"},{"start":12729.44,"end":12731.44,"text":"去初期去查的"},{"start":12731.44,"end":12733.44,"text":"所以這個後續都是要求"},{"start":12733.44,"end":12735.44,"text":"他們要去改善"},{"start":12735.44,"end":12737.44,"text":"這個按照新的HACCP標準去做"},{"start":12737.44,"end":12739.44,"text":"對啊"},{"start":12739.44,"end":12741.44,"text":"之後的記錄就"},{"start":12741.44,"end":12742.44,"text":"因為各家的表現不一樣"},{"start":12742.44,"end":12743.44,"text":"就交由地方"},{"start":12743.44,"end":12745.44,"text":"去根據他的風險程度"},{"start":12745.44,"end":12747.44,"text":"去做後續的年度追蹤"},{"start":12747.44,"end":12748.44,"text":"不是"},{"start":12748.44,"end":12749.44,"text":"所以並不是所有"},{"start":12749.44,"end":12752.44,"text":"去看了就發現普遍都是這樣的問題"},{"start":12752.44,"end":12754.44,"text":"那你們有沒有要求"},{"start":12754.44,"end":12756.44,"text":"地方政府每年都要去查場"},{"start":12756.44,"end":12759.44,"text":"HACCP的這一些重大的缺失"},{"start":12759.44,"end":12761.44,"text":"這一些重大的缺失"},{"start":12761.44,"end":12766.44,"text":"只指HACCP的最核心的管制上的重點"},{"start":12766.44,"end":12768.44,"text":"而都沒有做到"},{"start":12768.44,"end":12771.44,"text":"所以你應該要都要求地方政府"},{"start":12771.44,"end":12773.44,"text":"你去查場的時候"},{"start":12773.44,"end":12775.44,"text":"不能夠再重複發生"},{"start":12775.44,"end":12777.44,"text":"你應該也要在中央"},{"start":12777.44,"end":12778.44,"text":"要建立一套"},{"start":12778.44,"end":12780.44,"text":"跨縣市的共享資料"},{"start":12780.44,"end":12783.44,"text":"讓中聯這一種大型有紙平台"},{"start":12783.44,"end":12786.44,"text":"不是指有所在地的衛生局"},{"start":12786.44,"end":12789.44,"text":"去單獨掌控那一些資料"},{"start":12789.44,"end":12791.44,"text":"每年各地方"},{"start":12792.66,"end":12793.66,"text":"查上來資料"},{"start":12793.66,"end":12796.66,"text":"應該共同share到這個平台上"},{"start":12796.66,"end":12798.66,"text":"大家會看到普遍的風險是什麼"},{"start":12799.89,"end":12800.89,"text":"跟委員說"},{"start":12800.89,"end":12803.89,"text":"這個只要是去查場的"},{"start":12803.89,"end":12807.89,"text":"那麼HACCP被我們公告要實施HACCP"},{"start":12807.89,"end":12809.89,"text":"還有GHP的"},{"start":12809.89,"end":12811.89,"text":"這個都是一定要查的"},{"start":12811.89,"end":12813.89,"text":"你們HACCP一年查幾次"},{"start":12813.89,"end":12814.89,"text":"幾年查一次"},{"start":12814.89,"end":12816.89,"text":"或者是一年查幾次"},{"start":12816.89,"end":12818.89,"text":"這個是地方在執行"},{"start":12818.89,"end":12819.89,"text":"只要他是去查場的"},{"start":12819.89,"end":12821.89,"text":"對 不管中央或地方"},{"start":12821.89,"end":12823.89,"text":"到底是多久要查一次"},{"start":12824.59,"end":12826.59,"text":"每一個樣態是不一樣"},{"start":12826.59,"end":12831.59,"text":"因為我們公告要做HACCP的"},{"start":12831.59,"end":12832.59,"text":"那麼去查場的時候"},{"start":12832.59,"end":12834.59,"text":"就會查HACCP"},{"start":12834.59,"end":12836.59,"text":"所以才會有這些資料出來"},{"start":12836.59,"end":12837.59,"text":"所以你們只有專案的時候"},{"start":12837.59,"end":12839.59,"text":"才會去查HACCP"},{"start":12839.59,"end":12841.59,"text":"沒有專案平台就不查"},{"start":12841.59,"end":12844.59,"text":"地方常規的查核就是查這個"},{"start":12844.59,"end":12847.59,"text":"它就是GHP加HACCP的查核"},{"start":12847.59,"end":12849.59,"text":"常規的查核要多久一次"},{"start":12849.99,"end":12853.99,"text":"常規的查核就要根據它的風險不一樣"},{"start":12853.99,"end":12856.99,"text":"所以這一篇報告指出"},{"start":12856.99,"end":12857.99,"text":"也有一年的"},{"start":12857.99,"end":12858.99,"text":"也有比較"},{"start":12858.99,"end":12859.99,"text":"不是這一次的查"},{"start":12859.99,"end":12862.99,"text":"107到19年查完就沒了"},{"start":12862.99,"end":12864.99,"text":"也不是地方完成"},{"start":12864.99,"end":12866.99,"text":"這個缺失的複查就好了"},{"start":12866.99,"end":12870.99,"text":"中央知道整個有恥產業的缺失"},{"start":12870.99,"end":12872.99,"text":"地方政府也知道"},{"start":12872.99,"end":12878.99,"text":"轄內業者實際造假數據不完整的問題"},{"start":12878.99,"end":12881.99,"text":"兩邊都應該要把這個事情"},{"start":12881.99,"end":12883.99,"text":"當成很嚴肅的事情"},{"start":12883.99,"end":12886.99,"text":"結果中央跟地方政府"},{"start":12886.99,"end":12888.99,"text":"可能長期都知情"},{"start":12888.99,"end":12890.99,"text":"卻待呼職責"},{"start":12890.99,"end":12895.99,"text":"導致今天中聯有指這整個系統性的風暴"},{"start":12895.99,"end":12898.99,"text":"我現在再跟你最後一項的提醒"},{"start":12898.99,"end":12900.99,"text":"我最後一項的提醒是要告訴你說"},{"start":12902.27,"end":12905.27,"text":"整個 HACCP 如果是這樣子運作的話"},{"start":12905.27,"end":12907.27,"text":"不會是只有中聯"},{"start":12907.97,"end":12909.97,"text":"也不會是只有油品的廠商"},{"start":12911.62,"end":12915.62,"text":"如果 HACCP 是照這樣子"},{"start":12915.62,"end":12916.62,"text":"蓄意委移"},{"start":12916.62,"end":12919.62,"text":"然後官樣文章管理的話"},{"start":12919.62,"end":12921.62,"text":"整個國家的 HACCP 制度"},{"start":12922.87,"end":12923.87,"text":"破功啦"},{"start":12924.48,"end":12926.48,"text":"問題就很嚴重了"},{"start":12926.48,"end":12929.48,"text":"所以你應該要由職場"},{"start":12930.87,"end":12932.87,"text":"這個預警"},{"start":12932.87,"end":12934.87,"text":"危害風險的控制"},{"start":12934.87,"end":12936.87,"text":"然後事前的預防"},{"start":12936.87,"end":12938.87,"text":"通通不但沒有"},{"start":12938.87,"end":12940.87,"text":"事後發生了還掩蓋"},{"start":12940.87,"end":12942.87,"text":"然後讓我們吃更多"},{"start":12942.87,"end":12944.87,"text":"這是很嚴重的事情"},{"start":12945.18,"end":12947.18,"text":"跟委員說明了"},{"start":12947.18,"end":12949.18,"text":"這不會是全面性"},{"start":12949.18,"end":12951.18,"text":"因為以這個四大廠來講"},{"start":12951.18,"end":12953.18,"text":"其他這個廠"},{"start":12953.18,"end":12955.18,"text":"其實都維持一定的"},{"start":12955.18,"end":12957.18,"text":"這個品質標準"},{"start":12957.18,"end":12959.18,"text":"不要太早在這裡拍胸脯"},{"start":12958.97,"end":12960.97,"text":"不要在這裡太早拍胸脯"},{"start":12960.97,"end":12962.97,"text":"我就說過了"},{"start":12962.97,"end":12964.97,"text":"吃啊"},{"start":12964.54,"end":12966.54,"text":"沒有他綠"},{"start":12966.54,"end":12968.54,"text":"只有業者的自主管理"},{"start":12969.09,"end":12971.09,"text":"這些數據是真是假"},{"start":12971.09,"end":12973.09,"text":"不知道"},{"start":12973.09,"end":12975.09,"text":"這些樣品有沒有調發"},{"start":12975.09,"end":12977.09,"text":"不知道"},{"start":12976.91,"end":12978.91,"text":"送驗的是A"},{"start":12978.91,"end":12980.91,"text":"供貨給廠商"},{"start":12980.91,"end":12982.91,"text":"下游廠商的是B"},{"start":12982.81,"end":12984.81,"text":"沒有政府介入"},{"start":12984.81,"end":12986.81,"text":"什麼都不知道"},{"start":12987.81,"end":12989.81,"text":"不要在這裡"},{"start":12989.48,"end":12991.48,"text":"太早幫業者拍胸脯"},{"start":12991.48,"end":12993.48,"text":"我敢在這裡說"},{"start":12993.48,"end":12995.48,"text":"業者絕對"},{"start":12995.48,"end":12997.48,"text":"絕對是需要"},{"start":12998.17,"end":13000.17,"text":"政府去管制才會"},{"start":13000.17,"end":13002.17,"text":"做得好的"},{"start":13002.93,"end":13004.93,"text":"所以今天是要告訴大家說"},{"start":13004.93,"end":13006.93,"text":"HACCP制度"},{"start":13006.93,"end":13008.93,"text":"你們最好是讓它"},{"start":13008.93,"end":13010.93,"text":"是真的HACCP"},{"start":13010.93,"end":13012.93,"text":"不是假的"},{"start":13012.93,"end":13014.93,"text":"從中聯遊子來看就是假的"},{"start":13014.93,"end":13016.93,"text":"從2021年的報告"},{"start":13016.93,"end":13018.93,"text":"都知道了"},{"start":13018.93,"end":13020.93,"text":"再對照出來你說他改善"},{"start":13020.93,"end":13022.93,"text":"合格了都是騙人的"},{"start":13025.02,"end":13027.02,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":13027.02,"end":13029.02,"text":"這次我們在修法裡面也會針對HACCP"},{"start":13029.02,"end":13031.02,"text":"去強化要求"},{"start":13031.02,"end":13033.02,"text":"好謝謝林時豐我的質詢"},{"start":13032.75,"end":13034.75,"text":"這次宣告在王政序委員"},{"start":13034.75,"end":13036.75,"text":"質詢後休息30分鐘"},{"start":13036.75,"end":13038.75,"text":"現在請邱政軍委員質詢"},{"start":13044.98,"end":13046.98,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13046.98,"end":13048.98,"text":"我們請食藥署署長"},{"start":13055.05,"end":13057.05,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13057.2,"end":13059.2,"text":"我昨天看到你們最新的說法"},{"start":13059.2,"end":13061.2,"text":"這是中聯遊子的"},{"start":13061.2,"end":13063.2,"text":"這個實案事件"},{"start":13063.2,"end":13065.2,"text":"是中聯去年調高大豆的這個"},{"start":13066.65,"end":13068.65,"text":"這個熱損率還有製程管品管有問題"},{"start":13068.65,"end":13070.65,"text":"所以造成今年4到6月的"},{"start":13070.65,"end":13072.65,"text":"有7批的油品"},{"start":13072.65,"end":13074.65,"text":"的BAP的超標"},{"start":13077.03,"end":13079.03,"text":"就是說他原本的熱損率是0.5%"},{"start":13079.03,"end":13081.03,"text":"他們之前買"},{"start":13081.03,"end":13083.03,"text":"那去年要調到這個5%"},{"start":13084.32,"end":13086.32,"text":"也有就近了"},{"start":13086.32,"end":13088.32,"text":"他去年從去年就開始調到5%"},{"start":13088.32,"end":13090.32,"text":"是這樣嗎"},{"start":13090.86,"end":13092.86,"text":"這邊跟委員報告"},{"start":13093.82,"end":13095.82,"text":"他們公司分上半年下半年"},{"start":13097.26,"end":13099.26,"text":"大概在3月以前的"},{"start":13099.26,"end":13101.26,"text":"是美國豆"},{"start":13101.26,"end":13103.26,"text":"下半年的時候"},{"start":13103.26,"end":13105.26,"text":"在4月份"},{"start":13105.26,"end":13107.26,"text":"我的意思是說他從0.5"},{"start":13107.26,"end":13109.26,"text":"調到5%是去年才調的"},{"start":13109.26,"end":13111.26,"text":"這是在114年的6月4日"},{"start":13111.26,"end":13113.26,"text":"去年進口這個巴西的"},{"start":13113.26,"end":13115.26,"text":"大豆時間集中在3月到9月"},{"start":13115.26,"end":13117.26,"text":"對不對"},{"start":13117.26,"end":13119.26,"text":"然後有將近87萬"},{"start":13119.26,"end":13121.26,"text":"9千公噸"},{"start":13121.26,"end":13123.26,"text":"保守估計可以做成10萬噸的"},{"start":13123.26,"end":13125.26,"text":"沙拉油啦"},{"start":13125.26,"end":13127.26,"text":"這個標準瓶的"},{"start":13127.26,"end":13129.26,"text":"600ml的瓶子來算的話"},{"start":13129.26,"end":13131.26,"text":"可以裝1.8億瓶"},{"start":13131.26,"end":13133.26,"text":"你們怎麼有辦法"},{"start":13133.26,"end":13135.26,"text":"現在這個時候你還可以老神"},{"start":13135.26,"end":13137.26,"text":"再說要宣布上架呢"},{"start":13137.54,"end":13139.54,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":13139.54,"end":13141.54,"text":"現在4到6月的"},{"start":13141.54,"end":13143.54,"text":"其實他生產批次是很確定的"},{"start":13143.54,"end":13145.54,"text":"從4月1號到6月30號"},{"start":13145.54,"end":13147.54,"text":"所以你現在覺得他生產沒有問題"},{"start":13147.54,"end":13149.54,"text":"我的意思是說現在我們看到的"},{"start":13149.54,"end":13151.54,"text":"我跟你們講"},{"start":13151.54,"end":13153.54,"text":"現在進口大豆是不是分兩種"},{"start":13153.54,"end":13155.54,"text":"就是我們防疫署"},{"start":13155.54,"end":13157.54,"text":"是這個"},{"start":13157.54,"end":13159.54,"text":"管理這個進口農藥有沒有病蟲害"},{"start":13159.54,"end":13161.54,"text":"那食藥署是"},{"start":13161.54,"end":13163.54,"text":"食品用途的大豆"},{"start":13163.54,"end":13165.54,"text":"抽驗也是驗重金屬"},{"start":13165.54,"end":13167.54,"text":"或農藥產地容許"},{"start":13167.54,"end":13169.54,"text":"那除了這些檢疫證明之外"},{"start":13169.54,"end":13171.54,"text":"有要求"},{"start":13171.46,"end":13173.46,"text":"我們出口國要提供大豆"},{"start":13173.46,"end":13175.46,"text":"熱損率證明之類的文件嗎"},{"start":13177.6,"end":13179.6,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":13179.6,"end":13181.6,"text":"因為現在節點上面"},{"start":13181.6,"end":13183.6,"text":"我們是"},{"start":13183.24,"end":13185.24,"text":"電量PPB"},{"start":13184.94,"end":13186.94,"text":"一個標準的油脂"},{"start":13186.94,"end":13188.94,"text":"你們知道"},{"start":13188.94,"end":13190.94,"text":"黃豆在產地會因為"},{"start":13190.94,"end":13192.94,"text":"乾燥或儲存不當"},{"start":13192.94,"end":13194.94,"text":"而產生熱損傷的這樣的加工瑕疵"},{"start":13194.94,"end":13196.94,"text":"那為什麼沒有進一步去要求"},{"start":13196.94,"end":13198.94,"text":"我想謝謝委員的指正"},{"start":13198.94,"end":13200.94,"text":"那這部分其實很重要的節點"},{"start":13200.94,"end":13202.94,"text":"在這一次"},{"start":13202.94,"end":13204.94,"text":"所以我們還是一樣"},{"start":13204.94,"end":13206.94,"text":"又是要靠我們業者的自律心"},{"start":13206.94,"end":13208.94,"text":"來保障我們的食安"},{"start":13208.94,"end":13210.94,"text":"就像你們現在"},{"start":13210.94,"end":13212.94,"text":"要修的法一樣"},{"start":13212.94,"end":13214.94,"text":"沒有做到主動通報"},{"start":13214.94,"end":13216.94,"text":"沒有做到連線"},{"start":13216.51,"end":13218.51,"text":"你還是讓這個業者"},{"start":13218.51,"end":13220.51,"text":"自己主動去通報"},{"start":13220.56,"end":13222.56,"text":"這樣有什麼用呢"},{"start":13222.56,"end":13224.56,"text":"不是回到原點"},{"start":13224.56,"end":13226.56,"text":"這個入法之後的所謂的"},{"start":13226.56,"end":13228.56,"text":"不是主動是強制"},{"start":13227.23,"end":13229.23,"text":"強制的通報的概念"},{"start":13229.23,"end":13231.23,"text":"其實讓這個預警點能夠拉前"},{"start":13231.23,"end":13233.23,"text":"你們的食品運作"},{"start":13233.23,"end":13235.23,"text":"還是要幹嘛的"},{"start":13235.68,"end":13237.68,"text":"你不能跟這些檢驗的"},{"start":13238.35,"end":13240.35,"text":"單位來做連線嗎"},{"start":13240.35,"end":13242.35,"text":"不能主動跳提示嗎"},{"start":13242.35,"end":13244.35,"text":"這邊跟委員報告"},{"start":13244.35,"end":13246.35,"text":"因為之前的評估當然是有提到"},{"start":13246.35,"end":13248.35,"text":"相關的議題"},{"start":13248.35,"end":13250.35,"text":"那也牽涉到多方的意見"},{"start":13250.35,"end":13252.35,"text":"所以在"},{"start":13252.35,"end":13254.35,"text":"13年的期間"},{"start":13254.35,"end":13256.35,"text":"我們針對"},{"start":13256.35,"end":13258.35,"text":"蘇丹紅事件的時候"},{"start":13258.35,"end":13260.35,"text":"有相關的提案之後"},{"start":13260.35,"end":13262.35,"text":"他也講了很多次"},{"start":13262.35,"end":13264.35,"text":"台中市政府之前也反應過"},{"start":13264.35,"end":13266.35,"text":"這反應的部分"},{"start":13266.35,"end":13268.35,"text":"我們針對這個議題"},{"start":13268.35,"end":13270.35,"text":"有經過的專家學者"},{"start":13270.35,"end":13272.35,"text":"以及業者"},{"start":13272.35,"end":13274.35,"text":"以及我們的各縣市衛生局"},{"start":13274.35,"end":13276.35,"text":"現在講結果"},{"start":13276.35,"end":13278.35,"text":"你要怎麼做"},{"start":13277.37,"end":13279.37,"text":"我覺得這個點是非常重要的"},{"start":13279.37,"end":13281.37,"text":"我們在關鍵的"},{"start":13281.37,"end":13283.37,"text":"HACCP的節點裡面"},{"start":13283.37,"end":13285.37,"text":"有沒有辦法把它入法"},{"start":13285.37,"end":13287.37,"text":"這一次的研議裡面我想也尊重"},{"start":13287.37,"end":13289.37,"text":"整個委員以及各方的意見"},{"start":13289.37,"end":13291.37,"text":"裡面有把這個部分納入"},{"start":13291.37,"end":13293.37,"text":"裡面的考量共同來研議"},{"start":13293.37,"end":13295.37,"text":"他的可行性"},{"start":13295.37,"end":13297.37,"text":"現在方向來規劃"},{"start":13297.37,"end":13299.37,"text":"我們就朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":13299.37,"end":13301.37,"text":"今年一到六月"},{"start":13301.37,"end":13303.37,"text":"我看到基改大豆進口總量"},{"start":13303.37,"end":13305.37,"text":"關務署給我的資料是"},{"start":13305.37,"end":13307.37,"text":"127萬"},{"start":13307.37,"end":13309.37,"text":"9714公噸"},{"start":13309.37,"end":13311.37,"text":"同一期間 同一貨品"},{"start":13311.37,"end":13313.37,"text":"食藥署受理抱怨的"},{"start":13313.37,"end":13315.37,"text":"這個進度是"},{"start":13315.37,"end":13317.37,"text":"127萬 8000"},{"start":13317.37,"end":13319.37,"text":"061公噸"},{"start":13319.37,"end":13321.37,"text":"差了1653噸"},{"start":13321.37,"end":13323.37,"text":"哪裡去"},{"start":13322.46,"end":13324.46,"text":"為什麼進來那麼多"},{"start":13324.46,"end":13326.46,"text":"你們檢驗才"},{"start":13326.46,"end":13328.46,"text":"這個差距差了"},{"start":13328.46,"end":13330.46,"text":"1600多噸"},{"start":13330.46,"end":13332.46,"text":"市長委員請問一下"},{"start":13332.46,"end":13334.46,"text":"我們的邊境的抽驗"},{"start":13334.46,"end":13336.46,"text":"叫做Border Protection Intelligence"},{"start":13336.46,"end":13338.46,"text":"按照他的風險等級"},{"start":13338.46,"end":13340.46,"text":"做抽驗的基礎"},{"start":13340.46,"end":13342.46,"text":"這邊是跟委員特別做一些報告"},{"start":13342.46,"end":13344.46,"text":"所以並不是每一批"},{"start":13344.46,"end":13346.46,"text":"而是抽批的"},{"start":13346.46,"end":13348.46,"text":"按照他風險跟檢出的情形"},{"start":13348.46,"end":13350.46,"text":"黃豆的風險點在哪裡"},{"start":13350.46,"end":13352.46,"text":"所以是我們的植種金屬"},{"start":13352.46,"end":13354.46,"text":"黃麴毒素等等"},{"start":13354.46,"end":13356.46,"text":"過去對於我們"},{"start":13356.46,"end":13358.46,"text":"不是 我在說你受理抱怨的進度"},{"start":13358.46,"end":13360.46,"text":"我現在講總重量"},{"start":13362.25,"end":13364.25,"text":"我不是問你驗幾批"},{"start":13364.25,"end":13366.25,"text":"報告報告委員"},{"start":13366.25,"end":13368.25,"text":"我們的資料受理的"},{"start":13368.25,"end":13370.25,"text":"跟你的數字是"},{"start":13370.25,"end":13372.25,"text":"都是1278061"},{"start":13372.25,"end":13374.25,"text":"對 但是公務署不會騙人"},{"start":13374.25,"end":13376.25,"text":"我的資料也是"},{"start":13376.25,"end":13378.25,"text":"公務署給我的"},{"start":13378.25,"end":13380.25,"text":"相近的 差了1653公噸"},{"start":13380.25,"end":13382.25,"text":"1653公噸"},{"start":13382.25,"end":13384.25,"text":"叫做相近"},{"start":13385.28,"end":13387.28,"text":"一個統計期間"},{"start":13387.28,"end":13389.28,"text":"叫受理期間 這個是很將近的"},{"start":13389.28,"end":13391.28,"text":"為什麼叫將近 1000多公噸的它會消失"},{"start":13394.17,"end":13396.17,"text":"我跟你講啦"},{"start":13396.17,"end":13398.17,"text":"你們到現在數字都說不清楚"},{"start":13398.17,"end":13400.17,"text":"連這麼基礎的都沒有辦法做到"},{"start":13400.16,"end":13402.16,"text":"都會有誤差 公務署跟你們"},{"start":13402.54,"end":13404.54,"text":"報官進來的 跟你們查驗的"},{"start":13404.54,"end":13406.54,"text":"這個數字都會有差"},{"start":13406.54,"end":13408.54,"text":"難怪你們講不清楚"},{"start":13408.54,"end":13410.54,"text":"一個是報驗的 一個是出官的"},{"start":13410.54,"end":13412.54,"text":"兩個時間是會有差距的"},{"start":13412.54,"end":13414.54,"text":"會有差距的 同一批"},{"start":13414.54,"end":13416.54,"text":"這個時間點上面"},{"start":13416.54,"end":13418.54,"text":"你不要再跟我拗時間點"},{"start":13418.54,"end":13420.54,"text":"我們會去把我們所有的"},{"start":13420.54,"end":13422.54,"text":"報官的來註明"},{"start":13422.54,"end":13424.54,"text":"今年2月到6月 台灣總共從"},{"start":13424.54,"end":13426.54,"text":"巴西進口大概70萬噸的大豆"},{"start":13426.54,"end":13428.54,"text":"那總報單"},{"start":13428.54,"end":13430.54,"text":"117批"},{"start":13430.54,"end":13432.54,"text":"6月到5月 巴西進口大概60萬噸"},{"start":13433.88,"end":13435.88,"text":"進口商有15家"},{"start":13435.88,"end":13437.88,"text":"這60萬公噸 其中有20萬公噸"},{"start":13437.88,"end":13439.88,"text":"直接賣給下一個22家廠商"},{"start":13439.88,"end":13441.88,"text":"31萬噸是"},{"start":13441.88,"end":13443.88,"text":"8大廠同時進口"},{"start":13443.88,"end":13445.88,"text":"又是加工廠的業者 那自己留著"},{"start":13445.88,"end":13447.88,"text":"就包含已經知道的大統一"},{"start":13447.88,"end":13449.88,"text":"大城還有我們福壽中聯"},{"start":13449.88,"end":13451.88,"text":"那剩下9萬噸哪裡去"},{"start":13453.14,"end":13455.14,"text":"我想我們這邊報告數據"},{"start":13455.14,"end":13457.14,"text":"我們收到的是70萬"},{"start":13457.14,"end":13459.14,"text":"45008噸"},{"start":13459.14,"end":13461.14,"text":"你們的數據出來都是多不一樣的"},{"start":13461.14,"end":13465.14,"text":"57萬3478公噸是來自於美國的"},{"start":13465.14,"end":13467.14,"text":"那我們確實收到數據是這樣"},{"start":13467.14,"end":13469.14,"text":"我們會後再把相關的"},{"start":13469.14,"end":13471.14,"text":"完整的數據跟委員做說明"},{"start":13471.14,"end":13473.14,"text":"對阿 你們的數據 我跟你講"},{"start":13473.14,"end":13475.14,"text":"完全錯不到"},{"start":13475.14,"end":13479.14,"text":"中聯有指批號 我這樣315-115-0404-JPU"},{"start":13479.14,"end":13481.14,"text":"在今年4月4號生產"},{"start":13481.14,"end":13484.14,"text":"那它的原料是在今年3月31號進口"},{"start":13484.14,"end":13486.14,"text":"那報驗號是"},{"start":13486.38,"end":13490.38,"text":"IEFK 15180009702"},{"start":13490.38,"end":13494.38,"text":"報單號碼是DA 151021379"},{"start":13494.38,"end":13496.38,"text":"那會不會發現"},{"start":13496.62,"end":13498.62,"text":"10月1號又有問題了"},{"start":13498.62,"end":13500.62,"text":"那10月1號的豆子哪裡來的"},{"start":13501.03,"end":13503.03,"text":"10月1號我們後來確定"},{"start":13503.03,"end":13505.03,"text":"它是哪一批"},{"start":13505.03,"end":13507.03,"text":"它是往前一批的美國豆"},{"start":13507.03,"end":13509.03,"text":"不是10月4號這一批的"},{"start":13509.03,"end":13511.03,"text":"它的傳批是12-ET"},{"start":13511.03,"end":13513.03,"text":"15年1月25號進來的豆子"},{"start":13513.03,"end":13515.03,"text":"所以是在美國豆"},{"start":13515.03,"end":13517.03,"text":"後來我們確實的檢驗"},{"start":13517.03,"end":13519.03,"text":"它是扁平坪BAP是沒有驗出來的"},{"start":13519.03,"end":13521.03,"text":"這邊我們都已經有公告"},{"start":13521.03,"end":13523.03,"text":"好 我再問你"},{"start":13523.03,"end":13525.03,"text":"中聯的賣方是國際大糧商這個加級"},{"start":13525.03,"end":13527.03,"text":"從87商托斯港裝貨"},{"start":13527.03,"end":13529.03,"text":"運到台中港蘇魯"},{"start":13529.03,"end":13531.03,"text":"那這批貨分6筆報關"},{"start":13531.03,"end":13533.03,"text":"總共大概5.46萬公噸"},{"start":13533.03,"end":13535.03,"text":"全部進到中聯有指"},{"start":13535.03,"end":13537.03,"text":"那6張報驗單"},{"start":13537.03,"end":13539.03,"text":"做成10批大豆沙拉油"},{"start":13539.03,"end":13541.03,"text":"總共是12930公噸"},{"start":13541.03,"end":13543.03,"text":"但很奇怪的是"},{"start":13543.03,"end":13545.03,"text":"這10批的批號開頭"},{"start":13545.03,"end":13547.03,"text":"看起來是不同油槽"},{"start":13547.03,"end":13549.03,"text":"但是有5批本篇筆槽標"},{"start":13549.03,"end":13551.03,"text":"這10批當中的第一批"},{"start":13551.03,"end":13553.03,"text":"也就是我們這一次被驗出來的"},{"start":13553.03,"end":13555.03,"text":"引爆食安的這一批"},{"start":13555.03,"end":13557.03,"text":"我們在台灣的"},{"start":13557.03,"end":13559.03,"text":"被驗出來的引爆食安的這一批油的問題"},{"start":13559.03,"end":13561.03,"text":"10批裡面有5批有問題"},{"start":13561.03,"end":13563.03,"text":"2到6月"},{"start":13563.03,"end":13565.03,"text":"進了70萬公噸"},{"start":13565.03,"end":13567.03,"text":"你們只抓了大概"},{"start":13567.03,"end":13569.03,"text":"其中的5萬噸來查"},{"start":13569.03,"end":13571.03,"text":"連一成都不到"},{"start":13570.28,"end":13572.28,"text":"面對這麼高異常的比例"},{"start":13572.28,"end":13574.28,"text":"你們不是擴大追查"},{"start":13574.28,"end":13576.28,"text":"而是急著縮小範圍"},{"start":13576.28,"end":13578.28,"text":"現在是怎麼樣 宣布"},{"start":13578.28,"end":13580.28,"text":"就是不敢影響到其他的"},{"start":13580.28,"end":13582.28,"text":"廠商 然後保護業者的安全"},{"start":13582.28,"end":13584.28,"text":"然後拿人民的財產安全"},{"start":13584.28,"end":13586.28,"text":"分明來做這個犧牲"},{"start":13586.28,"end":13588.28,"text":"是這樣嗎 報告委員"},{"start":13588.28,"end":13590.28,"text":"我們今年從1月到"},{"start":13590.28,"end":13592.28,"text":"6月的60批"},{"start":13592.28,"end":13594.28,"text":"其實我們現在有 檢體的全部都驗完了"},{"start":13594.28,"end":13596.28,"text":"1到3月的我們驗出來的"},{"start":13596.28,"end":13598.28,"text":"結果都是"},{"start":13598.14,"end":13600.14,"text":"沒有檢出的 沒有超標的情形"},{"start":13600.14,"end":13602.14,"text":"4到6月的剛才提到"},{"start":13602.14,"end":13604.14,"text":"4月 5月 6月我們分別在"},{"start":13604.14,"end":13606.14,"text":"4月10批裡面有5批"},{"start":13606.14,"end":13608.14,"text":"針對其他的5批"},{"start":13608.14,"end":13610.14,"text":"總共10批裡面我們都每一批都驗完"},{"start":13610.14,"end":13612.14,"text":"原油跟下油相關的"},{"start":13612.14,"end":13614.14,"text":"油品 確立它"},{"start":13614.14,"end":13616.14,"text":"上下之間的關係能夠達成"},{"start":13616.94,"end":13618.94,"text":"確定它的是"},{"start":13618.94,"end":13620.94,"text":"目前是沒有檢出的安全的一個狀況"},{"start":13620.94,"end":13622.94,"text":"你只驗了5萬多噸"},{"start":13622.94,"end":13624.94,"text":"5萬多噸而已"},{"start":13624.94,"end":13626.94,"text":"我跟委員稍微報告 因為"},{"start":13626.94,"end":13628.94,"text":"做出來的油跟豆子的部分"},{"start":13628.94,"end":13630.94,"text":"你們覺得說"},{"start":13630.94,"end":13632.94,"text":"只要不驗就不會有問題"},{"start":13632.94,"end":13634.94,"text":"不是 曾委員進一步說每一批都驗過"},{"start":13634.94,"end":13636.94,"text":"平常要有風險管理"},{"start":13636.94,"end":13638.94,"text":"這個"},{"start":13638.94,"end":13640.94,"text":"風險管理是要靠科學"},{"start":13640.94,"end":13642.94,"text":"那危機發生的時候"},{"start":13642.94,"end":13644.94,"text":"要阻止風險擴散"},{"start":13644.94,"end":13646.94,"text":"所以要有決心嘛"},{"start":13646.94,"end":13648.94,"text":"再好的科學也保護不了人民"},{"start":13648.94,"end":13650.94,"text":"你們如果不做 拿著再好的武器也沒用"},{"start":13650.94,"end":13652.94,"text":"謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":13652.94,"end":13654.94,"text":"我們又下定決心每一批都驗了"},{"start":13654.94,"end":13656.94,"text":"而且驗出來結果的每一批都"},{"start":13656.94,"end":13658.94,"text":"跟各位委員做報告"},{"start":13658.94,"end":13660.94,"text":"其中我們看到19批的"},{"start":13660.94,"end":13662.94,"text":"目前是上下油都驗起來"},{"start":13662.94,"end":13664.94,"text":"是合規標準的"},{"start":13664.94,"end":13666.94,"text":"另外有3批的油槽 甚至還在油槽裡面"},{"start":13666.94,"end":13668.94,"text":"我們也進去驗確定都是沒有"},{"start":13668.94,"end":13670.94,"text":"驗出扁平批的"},{"start":13670.94,"end":13672.94,"text":"這邊也在這個機會跟委員跟各位"},{"start":13672.94,"end":13674.94,"text":"大眾"},{"start":13674.94,"end":13676.94,"text":"那我再問你進口商有15家"},{"start":13676.94,"end":13678.94,"text":"直接賣給下油22家廠商"},{"start":13678.94,"end":13680.94,"text":"8大廠自己留"},{"start":13680.94,"end":13682.94,"text":"所以總共有30間工廠"},{"start":13682.94,"end":13684.94,"text":"進到可能有問題的豆子"},{"start":13684.94,"end":13686.94,"text":"另外還有9萬噸 我們現在剛才我算了一下追不到"},{"start":13686.94,"end":13688.94,"text":"那你很快要開學了"},{"start":13688.94,"end":13690.94,"text":"你不繼續追嗎"},{"start":13690.94,"end":13692.94,"text":"你認為這樣就安全了嗎"},{"start":13692.94,"end":13694.94,"text":"跟委員說明 我們對於進入油廠裡面"},{"start":13694.94,"end":13696.94,"text":"因為豆子的問題"},{"start":13696.94,"end":13698.94,"text":"不代表結果有問題"},{"start":13698.94,"end":13700.94,"text":"因為整個製程其實在管制"},{"start":13700.94,"end":13702.94,"text":"我知道啦"},{"start":13702.94,"end":13704.94,"text":"你最清零這件事情是很不以為然"},{"start":13704.94,"end":13706.94,"text":"那2024年的"},{"start":13706.94,"end":13708.94,"text":"賴清德總統是很討厭你"},{"start":13708.94,"end":13710.94,"text":"這種樣子 你這種態度"},{"start":13710.94,"end":13712.94,"text":"但他現在把你當寶貝"},{"start":13712.94,"end":13714.94,"text":"以前的民進黨在野要求的是"},{"start":13714.94,"end":13716.94,"text":"寧可錯篩也不要放過風險"},{"start":13716.94,"end":13718.94,"text":"現在執政了就變成"},{"start":13718.94,"end":13720.94,"text":"沒有百分之百的證據"},{"start":13720.94,"end":13722.94,"text":"就不要擴大處理"},{"start":13723.02,"end":13725.02,"text":"這邊跟委員特別報告"},{"start":13725.02,"end":13727.02,"text":"我請教你"},{"start":13727.02,"end":13730.02,"text":"3月13號 食品安全會"},{"start":13730.02,"end":13732.02,"text":"那時候李孟燕"},{"start":13732.02,"end":13735.02,"text":"這個秘書長說發現瘦肉精不要馬上發布消息"},{"start":13735.02,"end":13737.02,"text":"不然會造成恐慌"},{"start":13737.02,"end":13739.02,"text":"大家普遍愛吃的美牛"},{"start":13739.02,"end":13741.02,"text":"都有瘦肉精 已經吃了10年"},{"start":13741.02,"end":13743.02,"text":"所以要大家接受牛跟豬有瘦肉精"},{"start":13743.02,"end":13745.02,"text":"你當時也在場"},{"start":13745.02,"end":13747.02,"text":"那現在請你告訴我 是不是因為民進黨"},{"start":13747.02,"end":13749.02,"text":"執政無限開放"},{"start":13749.02,"end":13751.02,"text":"所以我們現在吃的這個"},{"start":13751.02,"end":13753.02,"text":"美豬美牛都有瘦肉精"},{"start":13753.29,"end":13755.29,"text":"跟委員做進一步說明"},{"start":13755.29,"end":13757.29,"text":"對於美豬美牛"},{"start":13757.29,"end":13759.29,"text":"以及各國的豬肉"},{"start":13759.29,"end":13761.29,"text":"我們對於瘦肉精的管理其實是一致的"},{"start":13762.57,"end":13764.57,"text":"那在豬肉的開放跟牛肉開放"},{"start":13764.57,"end":13766.57,"text":"其實我們從歷史上看起來"},{"start":13766.57,"end":13768.57,"text":"都知道它在不同的政黨階段裡面"},{"start":13768.57,"end":13770.57,"text":"都同樣的開放"},{"start":13770.57,"end":13772.57,"text":"對我來講"},{"start":13772.57,"end":13774.57,"text":"瘦肉精是一種化學物質"},{"start":13774.57,"end":13776.57,"text":"它的風險是一致的"},{"start":13776.57,"end":13778.57,"text":"不應牛跟豬有改變"},{"start":13778.57,"end":13780.57,"text":"我們堅持原來的觀點"},{"start":13780.57,"end":13782.57,"text":"我問你"},{"start":13782.57,"end":13784.57,"text":"這個蘋果分普林的殘留容許"},{"start":13784.57,"end":13786.57,"text":"業者當時申請的容許值是多少"},{"start":13786.57,"end":13788.57,"text":"他報出來的"},{"start":13788.57,"end":13790.57,"text":"希望我們 喔他希望"},{"start":13790.57,"end":13792.57,"text":"報出來的 我記得是五"},{"start":13792.57,"end":13794.57,"text":"我們實際上算出來不是五"},{"start":13794.57,"end":13796.57,"text":"因為是在三的PPM的"},{"start":13796.57,"end":13798.57,"text":"所以我們即使申請出來"},{"start":13798.57,"end":13800.57,"text":"不管是申請量是"},{"start":13800.57,"end":13802.57,"text":"要求是多少或希望多少"},{"start":13802.57,"end":13804.57,"text":"我們都按照我們的科學風險分析"},{"start":13804.57,"end":13806.57,"text":"在整個專家委會"},{"start":13806.57,"end":13808.57,"text":"用國際的OECD的"},{"start":13808.57,"end":13810.57,"text":"計算公式裡面"},{"start":13810.57,"end":13812.57,"text":"我們涵蓋了國人現在的設實的習慣"},{"start":13812.57,"end":13814.57,"text":"把整體的數據"},{"start":13814.57,"end":13816.57,"text":"算出來"},{"start":13816.57,"end":13818.57,"text":"所以每個國家設實的習慣"},{"start":13818.57,"end":13820.57,"text":"國家的設實的習慣風險是不同的"},{"start":13820.57,"end":13822.57,"text":"所以在這種前提之下"},{"start":13822.57,"end":13824.57,"text":"我們才會按照這來說明"},{"start":13824.57,"end":13826.57,"text":"同樣的分普林"},{"start":13826.57,"end":13828.57,"text":"一次送了很多樣水果"},{"start":13828.57,"end":13830.57,"text":"第一面是因為資料不完整"},{"start":13830.57,"end":13832.57,"text":"幾乎連資料都還沒有"},{"start":13832.57,"end":13834.57,"text":"資格審"},{"start":13834.57,"end":13836.57,"text":"112年結束後"},{"start":13836.57,"end":13838.57,"text":"連資料都還不起"},{"start":13838.57,"end":13840.57,"text":"最後總共送了26場"},{"start":13840.57,"end":13842.57,"text":"田間試驗資料"},{"start":13842.57,"end":13844.57,"text":"看起來很多"},{"start":13844.57,"end":13846.57,"text":"但實際審查之後有22場"},{"start":13846.57,"end":13848.57,"text":"資料機量、資料指數或操作方式"},{"start":13848.57,"end":13850.57,"text":"不符合美國的要求"},{"start":13850.57,"end":13852.57,"text":"全部被剔除"},{"start":13852.57,"end":13854.57,"text":"真正拿下來評估的"},{"start":13854.57,"end":13856.57,"text":"只有4場的試驗"},{"start":13856.57,"end":13858.57,"text":"換句話說26場只採用4場"},{"start":13858.57,"end":13860.57,"text":"採用率大概只有15%"},{"start":13860.57,"end":13862.57,"text":"而這4場的殘留量"},{"start":13862.57,"end":13864.57,"text":"大概落在0.4到"},{"start":13864.57,"end":13866.57,"text":"1.125ppm之間"},{"start":13867.62,"end":13869.62,"text":"尤其最低值0.48"},{"start":13869.62,"end":13871.62,"text":"就幾乎貼著我們原本規定的"},{"start":13871.62,"end":13873.62,"text":"0.5的標準"},{"start":13873.62,"end":13875.62,"text":"部長你說這個3ppm"},{"start":13875.62,"end":13877.62,"text":"是為了反映實際的情形"},{"start":13878.72,"end":13880.72,"text":"這個跟台美貿易有關係嗎"},{"start":13880.72,"end":13882.72,"text":"跟台美貿易有沒有關係"},{"start":13882.72,"end":13884.72,"text":"先講這邊有關係"},{"start":13884.72,"end":13886.72,"text":"委員非常非常專業的"},{"start":13886.72,"end":13888.72,"text":"26場裡面為什麼取4場"},{"start":13888.72,"end":13890.72,"text":"每一場的田間試驗要符合"},{"start":13890.72,"end":13892.72,"text":"GAP良好的農業"},{"start":13893.39,"end":13895.39,"text":"執行標準"},{"start":13895.39,"end":13897.39,"text":"在這種前提下才能多在此"},{"start":13897.39,"end":13899.39,"text":"可信的"},{"start":13899.75,"end":13901.75,"text":"試驗結果才能進入評估"},{"start":13901.75,"end":13903.75,"text":"所以進入評估"},{"start":13903.75,"end":13905.75,"text":"一定是可信的完整的"},{"start":13905.75,"end":13907.75,"text":"因為這個可信度才能"},{"start":13907.75,"end":13909.75,"text":"導入後續的計算"},{"start":13909.75,"end":13911.75,"text":"計算之後"},{"start":13911.75,"end":13913.75,"text":"確實他是在"},{"start":13913.75,"end":13915.75,"text":"這樣子3ppm的標準"},{"start":13915.75,"end":13917.75,"text":"底下是我們看起來"},{"start":13917.75,"end":13919.75,"text":"是很合理的數據"},{"start":13919.75,"end":13921.75,"text":"我們真正的問題是政府為什麼"},{"start":13921.75,"end":13923.75,"text":"要接受這套資料"},{"start":13923.75,"end":13925.75,"text":"為什麼在26場試驗中"},{"start":13925.75,"end":13927.75,"text":"只剩下4場可以使用仍然決定"},{"start":13927.75,"end":13929.75,"text":"把原本的0.5ppm"},{"start":13929.75,"end":13931.75,"text":"要提高到3ppm"},{"start":13931.75,"end":13933.75,"text":"我覺得這很奇怪"},{"start":13933.75,"end":13935.75,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":13935.75,"end":13937.75,"text":"計算這個公式不是台灣發明的"},{"start":13937.75,"end":13939.75,"text":"是世界十大先進國家"},{"start":13939.75,"end":13941.75,"text":"OECD等等的"},{"start":13941.75,"end":13943.75,"text":"進行同樣的公式在計算"},{"start":13943.75,"end":13945.75,"text":"不因為台灣"},{"start":13945.75,"end":13947.75,"text":"而改變了這個公式"},{"start":13947.75,"end":13949.75,"text":"也沒有去適應這個"},{"start":13949.75,"end":13951.75,"text":"要去對應的"},{"start":13951.75,"end":13953.75,"text":"有很多時間差"},{"start":13953.75,"end":13955.75,"text":"有很多時間這整個"},{"start":13955.75,"end":13957.75,"text":"排列下來"},{"start":13957.75,"end":13959.75,"text":"一直以來我們跟美國的貿易來談判的時候"},{"start":13959.75,"end":13961.75,"text":"在談這個部分"},{"start":13961.75,"end":13963.75,"text":"農藥容許量"},{"start":13963.75,"end":13965.75,"text":"不足"},{"start":13965.75,"end":13967.75,"text":"都不能符合美國的標準"},{"start":13967.75,"end":13969.75,"text":"美國一直要求我們要調整標準"},{"start":13969.75,"end":13971.75,"text":"整個下來"},{"start":13971.75,"end":13973.75,"text":"讓我們覺得"},{"start":13973.75,"end":13975.75,"text":"今天會調到3ppm是因為"},{"start":13975.75,"end":13977.75,"text":"要受到美國的壓力"},{"start":13977.75,"end":13979.75,"text":"我希望這樣"},{"start":13979.75,"end":13981.75,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":13981.75,"end":13983.75,"text":"我們回去再檢討一下"},{"start":13983.75,"end":13985.75,"text":"你再拿給"},{"start":13985.75,"end":13987.75,"text":"你們討論的數據給我"},{"start":13987.75,"end":13989.75,"text":"跟委員特別報告"},{"start":13989.75,"end":13991.75,"text":"我們整個算起來OECD的ADI"},{"start":13991.75,"end":13993.75,"text":"目前是在30%"},{"start":13993.75,"end":13995.75,"text":"因為蘋果本身"},{"start":13995.75,"end":13997.75,"text":"已經有173項農藥產量"},{"start":13997.75,"end":13999.75,"text":"農藥容許量"},{"start":13999.75,"end":14001.75,"text":"已經173項"},{"start":14001.75,"end":14003.75,"text":"這項標準是基於"},{"start":14003.75,"end":14005.75,"text":"人民的食安"},{"start":14005.75,"end":14007.75,"text":"還是為了"},{"start":14007.75,"end":14009.75,"text":"還是為了要讓蘋果更容易過關"},{"start":14010.43,"end":14012.43,"text":"我想委員我們一定是以"},{"start":14012.43,"end":14014.43,"text":"風險分析出來"},{"start":14014.43,"end":14016.43,"text":"評估出來的結果"},{"start":14016.43,"end":14018.43,"text":"食安的前提之下來做出來的結果"},{"start":14018.43,"end":14020.43,"text":"的一個觀點"},{"start":14020.57,"end":14022.57,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":14022.57,"end":14024.57,"text":"邱政軍委員的諮詢"},{"start":14024.57,"end":14026.57,"text":"接下來請王政旭委員諮詢"},{"start":14026.65,"end":14028.65,"text":"王政旭委員諮詢後休息30分鐘"},{"start":14036.34,"end":14038.34,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":14038.34,"end":14040.34,"text":"我們還是麻煩"},{"start":14040.34,"end":14042.34,"text":"石部長"},{"start":14045.19,"end":14047.19,"text":"部長好"},{"start":14047.19,"end":14049.19,"text":"真的大家對食安的問題"},{"start":14049.19,"end":14051.19,"text":"真的非常非常的重視"},{"start":14051.19,"end":14053.19,"text":"剛剛林書宏也提到HACCP"},{"start":14053.19,"end":14055.19,"text":"目前HACCP"},{"start":14055.19,"end":14057.19,"text":"是國際公認最好的食品"},{"start":14057.19,"end":14059.19,"text":"預防管理系統"},{"start":14059.19,"end":14061.19,"text":"所以他很迎迎期待"},{"start":14061.19,"end":14063.19,"text":"如何能夠真的落實"},{"start":14063.19,"end":14065.19,"text":"而且讓民眾對食安的問題"},{"start":14065.19,"end":14067.19,"text":"包括這個食安武藩整體的"},{"start":14067.19,"end":14069.19,"text":"精進"},{"start":14069.19,"end":14071.19,"text":"就麻煩行政系統"},{"start":14071.19,"end":14073.19,"text":"務必要把這個部分能夠持續的"},{"start":14073.19,"end":14075.19,"text":"我們會再檢視這個HACCP"},{"start":14075.19,"end":14077.19,"text":"的內涵"},{"start":14077.19,"end":14079.19,"text":"因為他涉及到的這個食品業"},{"start":14079.19,"end":14081.19,"text":"樣態蠻多的"},{"start":14081.19,"end":14083.19,"text":"我們會再針對油品的部分再去強化"},{"start":14083.19,"end":14085.19,"text":"好那就麻煩部長"},{"start":14085.19,"end":14087.19,"text":"我想我們今天"},{"start":14087.19,"end":14089.19,"text":"有另外的主題就是從這個健康"},{"start":14089.19,"end":14091.19,"text":"台灣的政策方向來出發"},{"start":14091.19,"end":14093.19,"text":"有三個部分來跟部長討論"},{"start":14093.19,"end":14095.19,"text":"第一個就是有關於這個慢性病"},{"start":14095.19,"end":14097.19,"text":"的防治"},{"start":14097.19,"end":14099.19,"text":"第二個就是有關於這個醫療品質監控"},{"start":14099.19,"end":14101.19,"text":"包括醫療評鑑"},{"start":14101.19,"end":14103.19,"text":"就是還是回到我常常"},{"start":14103.19,"end":14105.19,"text":"希望能夠針對這個"},{"start":14105.19,"end":14107.19,"text":"癌症全程照護的部分"},{"start":14107.19,"end":14109.19,"text":"能夠有一個"},{"start":14109.07,"end":14111.07,"text":"好的制度改革的機會"},{"start":14111.07,"end":14113.07,"text":"第一部分就是慢性病防治"},{"start":14113.07,"end":14115.07,"text":"的這個政策的法制化"},{"start":14115.07,"end":14117.07,"text":"跟永續推動的問題"},{"start":14117.07,"end":14119.07,"text":"我想"},{"start":14119.07,"end":14121.07,"text":"衛福部這幾年來"},{"start":14121.07,"end":14123.07,"text":"在這個疾病的預防"},{"start":14123.07,"end":14125.07,"text":"醫療的照護以及公共衛生"},{"start":14125.07,"end":14127.07,"text":"政策上面的努力"},{"start":14127.07,"end":14129.07,"text":"根據這個114年國務院"},{"start":14129.07,"end":14131.07,"text":"的死因統計"},{"start":14131.07,"end":14133.07,"text":"國務院標準化死亡率"},{"start":14133.07,"end":14135.07,"text":"每10萬人口是"},{"start":14135.07,"end":14137.07,"text":"395.2人"},{"start":14137.07,"end":14139.07,"text":"所以說113年下降了3.7%"},{"start":14139.07,"end":14141.07,"text":"而且是這個COVID"},{"start":14141.07,"end":14143.07,"text":"疫情3年的這個部分"},{"start":14143.07,"end":14145.07,"text":"都有持續的下降"},{"start":14145.07,"end":14147.07,"text":"代表說政府機關對於"},{"start":14147.07,"end":14149.07,"text":"這些防治的措施"},{"start":14149.07,"end":14151.07,"text":"看到了一定的成果"},{"start":14151.07,"end":14153.07,"text":"可是我們也知道這些"},{"start":14153.07,"end":14155.07,"text":"整體死亡率的下降"},{"start":14155.07,"end":14157.07,"text":"我們還是得去瞭解它後續的一些"},{"start":14157.07,"end":14159.07,"text":"死因的結構"},{"start":14159.07,"end":14161.07,"text":"它所反應出來的問題"},{"start":14161.07,"end":14163.07,"text":"那我們可以看到這個114年"},{"start":14163.07,"end":14165.07,"text":"這個國務院的十大死因裡面"},{"start":14165.07,"end":14167.07,"text":"扣除癌症以後"},{"start":14167.07,"end":14169.07,"text":"至少有六項都是跟慢性疾病"},{"start":14169.07,"end":14171.07,"text":"有關"},{"start":14171.07,"end":14173.07,"text":"如果將癌症延遜"},{"start":14173.07,"end":14175.07,"text":"廣義的這個非傳染性慢性病"},{"start":14175.07,"end":14177.07,"text":"範疇的話呢"},{"start":14177.07,"end":14179.07,"text":"這十大死因裡面就有七項跟慢性病"},{"start":14179.07,"end":14181.07,"text":"是真的是很密切的相關"},{"start":14181.07,"end":14183.07,"text":"所以我們面對的不只是"},{"start":14183.07,"end":14185.07,"text":"一個單一疾病的治療的問題"},{"start":14185.07,"end":14187.07,"text":"其實是人口高齡化"},{"start":14187.07,"end":14189.07,"text":"之下如果能夠長期的進行"},{"start":14189.07,"end":14191.07,"text":"預防早期的發現"},{"start":14191.07,"end":14193.07,"text":"來持續追蹤"},{"start":14193.07,"end":14195.07,"text":"這個就是國家未來這部分"},{"start":14195.07,"end":14197.07,"text":"重要的治理的問題"},{"start":14197.07,"end":14199.07,"text":"那健康台灣的情形"},{"start":14199.07,"end":14201.07,"text":"我們也希望能夠"},{"start":14201.07,"end":14203.07,"text":"傷高防治888計畫"},{"start":14203.07,"end":14205.07,"text":"相信大家對這個已經都是耳熟能詳"},{"start":14205.07,"end":14207.07,"text":"包括80%的病友"},{"start":14207.07,"end":14209.07,"text":"要繞入照護網"},{"start":14209.07,"end":14211.07,"text":"照護網裡面的80%的病友"},{"start":14211.07,"end":14213.07,"text":"要獲得生活的習慣諮詢"},{"start":14213.07,"end":14215.07,"text":"還有80%的病友的照"},{"start":14215.07,"end":14217.07,"text":"病情要獲得控制"},{"start":14217.07,"end":14219.07,"text":"這個都是目前"},{"start":14219.07,"end":14221.07,"text":"積極在處理的部分"},{"start":14221.07,"end":14223.07,"text":"那"},{"start":14222.67,"end":14224.67,"text":"我們也相信這個是一個很正確的方向"},{"start":14224.67,"end":14226.67,"text":"那如何能夠"},{"start":14226.67,"end":14228.67,"text":"有沒有機會讓它法制化"},{"start":14228.67,"end":14230.67,"text":"這個就是大家很關切的"},{"start":14230.67,"end":14232.67,"text":"那國衛院在司徒院長"},{"start":14232.67,"end":14234.67,"text":"還有許院長"},{"start":14234.67,"end":14236.67,"text":"共同希望能夠"},{"start":14236.67,"end":14238.67,"text":"有沒有辦法來速推慢性病防治法"},{"start":14238.67,"end":14240.67,"text":"這樣的需求"},{"start":14240.67,"end":14242.67,"text":"那如果我們訂了慢性病防治法的話"},{"start":14242.67,"end":14244.67,"text":"第一個"},{"start":14244.67,"end":14246.67,"text":"就可以提供法院的依據"},{"start":14246.67,"end":14248.67,"text":"再過來就能夠確保"},{"start":14248.67,"end":14250.67,"text":"政府來編列這個穩定的經費"},{"start":14250.67,"end":14252.67,"text":"專注慢性病的預防"},{"start":14252.67,"end":14254.67,"text":"同時把研究跟照護"},{"start":14254.67,"end":14256.67,"text":"體系經過整合以後"},{"start":14256.67,"end":14258.67,"text":"能夠針對剛所提到"},{"start":14258.67,"end":14260.67,"text":"對國衛院這麼重要的死亡病因"},{"start":14260.67,"end":14262.67,"text":"做很好的"},{"start":14262.67,"end":14264.67,"text":"一些整合處理"},{"start":14264.67,"end":14266.67,"text":"所以請教一下部長就是"},{"start":14266.67,"end":14268.67,"text":"目前國衛院提出了這樣的"},{"start":14268.67,"end":14270.67,"text":"這個慢性病防治法的建議以後"},{"start":14270.67,"end":14272.67,"text":"衛福部有沒有進行相關的"},{"start":14272.67,"end":14274.67,"text":"評估或者是研議"},{"start":14274.67,"end":14276.67,"text":"是哪一個單位在負責"},{"start":14276.67,"end":14278.67,"text":"那進度有沒有進度"},{"start":14278.67,"end":14280.67,"text":"那第二部分就是"},{"start":14280.67,"end":14282.67,"text":"如果部長或者是"},{"start":14282.96,"end":14284.96,"text":"也認同未來必要透過專法"},{"start":14284.96,"end":14286.96,"text":"來建立慢性病防治法"},{"start":14286.96,"end":14288.96,"text":"依據的話"},{"start":14288.96,"end":14290.96,"text":"這個經費跟跨體系的整合"},{"start":14290.96,"end":14292.96,"text":"機制怎麼來產出"},{"start":14292.96,"end":14294.96,"text":"第三個部分如果說"},{"start":14294.96,"end":14296.96,"text":"衛福部也支持朝法制化來方向推動"},{"start":14296.96,"end":14298.96,"text":"那如果可以提出初步的"},{"start":14298.96,"end":14300.96,"text":"研議方向跟時間的規劃"},{"start":14300.96,"end":14302.96,"text":"包括什麼時候會請"},{"start":14302.96,"end":14304.96,"text":"專家來進行"},{"start":14304.96,"end":14306.96,"text":"會議或擴部會的討論"},{"start":14306.96,"end":14308.96,"text":"這部分可不可以請部長說一些說明"},{"start":14308.96,"end":14310.96,"text":"好謝謝委員對這個"},{"start":14310.96,"end":14312.96,"text":"議題非常的深入"},{"start":14312.96,"end":14314.96,"text":"那麼確實這個慢性病"},{"start":14314.96,"end":14316.96,"text":"那麼已經是"},{"start":14317.95,"end":14319.95,"text":"我們每年的健保支出大概已經是七成"},{"start":14319.95,"end":14321.95,"text":"都是屬於NCD"},{"start":14321.95,"end":14323.95,"text":"那麼"},{"start":14323.95,"end":14325.95,"text":"隨著這個高凝化"},{"start":14325.95,"end":14327.95,"text":"我們的數字統治65歲以上"},{"start":14327.95,"end":14329.95,"text":"85%都有一個慢性病"},{"start":14329.95,"end":14331.95,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":14331.95,"end":14333.95,"text":"不論是在盛行率或者是在"},{"start":14333.95,"end":14335.95,"text":"這個健康負荷"},{"start":14335.95,"end":14337.95,"text":"或者是死亡"},{"start":14337.95,"end":14339.95,"text":"這個死因這邊其實"},{"start":14339.95,"end":14341.95,"text":"他都佔了很重要的"},{"start":14341.95,"end":14343.95,"text":"比例所以我們在"},{"start":14343.95,"end":14345.95,"text":"這個健康台灣總統的"},{"start":14345.95,"end":14347.95,"text":"這個健康台灣市政院"},{"start":14347.95,"end":14349.95,"text":"警示下我們是結合"},{"start":14349.95,"end":14351.95,"text":"各項的資源一起來"},{"start":14351.95,"end":14353.95,"text":"投入所以他不是"},{"start":14353.95,"end":14355.95,"text":"只有在治療的部分"},{"start":14355.95,"end":14357.95,"text":"那麼更重視前端的"},{"start":14357.95,"end":14359.95,"text":"預防還有"},{"start":14359.95,"end":14361.95,"text":"篩檢所以我們也擴大了"},{"start":14361.95,"end":14363.95,"text":"這個成人健檢的公費"},{"start":14363.95,"end":14365.95,"text":"讓他下修到"},{"start":14365.95,"end":14367.95,"text":"30歲就開始有第一次"},{"start":14367.95,"end":14369.95,"text":"的成人健檢"},{"start":14369.95,"end":14371.95,"text":"來提早發現"},{"start":14371.95,"end":14373.95,"text":"有沒有這些慢性病的"},{"start":14373.95,"end":14375.95,"text":"風險因子"},{"start":14375.95,"end":14377.95,"text":"那麼包含這個三高"},{"start":14377.95,"end":14379.95,"text":"或者是代謝症候群等等"},{"start":14379.95,"end":14381.95,"text":"這些這個是希望提早發現"},{"start":14381.95,"end":14383.95,"text":"那麼另外一個就是"},{"start":14383.95,"end":14385.95,"text":"這個生活習慣"},{"start":14385.95,"end":14387.95,"text":"或生活型態這個跟"},{"start":14387.95,"end":14389.95,"text":"慢性病的貢獻度更高"},{"start":14389.95,"end":14391.95,"text":"從國際上來看40到60%"},{"start":14391.95,"end":14393.95,"text":"的慢性病的成因"},{"start":14393.95,"end":14395.95,"text":"跟他的生活習慣是有關係的"},{"start":14395.95,"end":14397.95,"text":"那這裡面"},{"start":14397.95,"end":14399.95,"text":"又以這個"},{"start":14399.95,"end":14401.95,"text":"營養跟運動"},{"start":14401.95,"end":14403.95,"text":"有關聯性這個是很高"},{"start":14403.95,"end":14405.95,"text":"這個活動還有營養以及"},{"start":14405.95,"end":14407.95,"text":"這個危害物質的避免等等"},{"start":14407.95,"end":14409.95,"text":"這一些所以我們現在也在推"},{"start":14409.95,"end":14411.95,"text":"這個類似像所謂的社會處方"},{"start":14411.95,"end":14413.95,"text":"或者是lifestyle 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公平公開的方式"},{"start":16992.46,"end":16998.46,"text":"針對全台灣所有的大學跟研究機構的研究人員可以來申請"},{"start":16998.46,"end":17000.46,"text":"整個過程是非常公開透明"},{"start":17000.46,"end":17002.46,"text":"那它審查的機制"},{"start":17002.46,"end":17004.46,"text":"為了避免國內的這一些"},{"start":17004.46,"end":17008.46,"text":"尤其這些比較研究型的大學"},{"start":17008.46,"end":17010.46,"text":"它掌握的這個研發能量比較強"},{"start":17010.46,"end":17012.46,"text":"所以我們的審查委員"},{"start":17012.46,"end":17016.46,"text":"每一年會聘請超過70個審查委員"},{"start":17016.46,"end":17019.46,"text":"而且70%是由國外來聘請"},{"start":17019.46,"end":17022.46,"text":"就是為了避免在審查的過程裡面"},{"start":17022.46,"end":17028.46,"text":"有這種所謂的不同的機構之間的這些可能的衝突"},{"start":17028.46,"end":17033.46,"text":"你把那些效益的報告給我好不好"},{"start":17033.46,"end":17035.46,"text":"因為這個是"},{"start":17035.83,"end":17038.83,"text":"非常用心的人提供的"},{"start":17038.83,"end":17041.83,"text":"所以我要好好的來研究"},{"start":17041.83,"end":17046.83,"text":"那研究人員若兼任私人生計企業的顧問"},{"start":17046.83,"end":17050.83,"text":"或在私人的企業有相關的股權"},{"start":17052.02,"end":17054.02,"text":"國衛院如何進行防範"},{"start":17054.02,"end":17058.02,"text":"是 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跟委員報告"},{"start":17095,"end":17096,"text":"我就拿這個"},{"start":17096,"end":17101,"text":"我們在1998年這個長病毒在台灣大流行的這個案子"},{"start":17101,"end":17104,"text":"那政府決定要國人"},{"start":17104,"end":17108,"text":"我們自己國家來製造這長病毒70疫情的疫苗"},{"start":17108,"end":17114,"text":"那這個一開始也是由國衛院的這個荷曼的合院士"},{"start":17114,"end":17119,"text":"分離出來長病毒的那個致病的致死率最高的那個病毒株"},{"start":17119,"end":17125,"text":"然後初步是由當初的衛生署的這個疾病管制局"},{"start":17125,"end":17128,"text":"做了初步的這個疫苗開發的工作"},{"start":17128,"end":17131,"text":"那接下來就是由國衛院接棒"},{"start":17131,"end":17134,"text":"整個在PITGNP的產線"},{"start":17134,"end":17136,"text":"做完所有的製程的開發"},{"start":17136,"end":17139,"text":"甚至我們了解到國內的業界"},{"start":17139,"end":17142,"text":"沒有後續做這些動物攻毒實驗"},{"start":17142,"end":17146,"text":"因為他需要很多基因改造的老鼠來做測試"},{"start":17146,"end":17151,"text":"我也很關心你們在做疫苗好幾陣子"},{"start":17151,"end":17157,"text":"你們做出來的量也不是沒辦法跟商業沒辦法"},{"start":17157,"end":17160,"text":"所以這點可能你也要注意一下"},{"start":17161.86,"end":17163.86,"text":"請回"},{"start":17163.86,"end":17166.86,"text":"行政院食安辦公室許主任"},{"start":17167.86,"end":17169.86,"text":"部長好睡了"},{"start":17169.86,"end":17171.86,"text":"我要叫他了"},{"start":17174.49,"end":17179.49,"text":"今天早上講有啦講講講講那個榮耀講了很多"},{"start":17179.98,"end":17184.98,"text":"我請問你那個分普尼上次在講分普尼"},{"start":17184.98,"end":17187.98,"text":"這個是什麼分普林"},{"start":17187.98,"end":17189.98,"text":"部長我拜託你"},{"start":17189.98,"end":17191.98,"text":"你這個翻譯要找那靠地區的"},{"start":17191.98,"end":17195.98,"text":"不然找到中文系的來搭配"},{"start":17195.98,"end":17199.98,"text":"黑白翻譯都亂七八糟"},{"start":17199.98,"end":17201.98,"text":"亂七八糟差太多了"},{"start":17202.9,"end":17204.9,"text":"分普尼就是在雞蛋"},{"start":17204.9,"end":17206.9,"text":"雞色起雞"},{"start":17207.65,"end":17209.65,"text":"一直在裝裝的就怕有傳染病"},{"start":17209.65,"end":17213.65,"text":"所以那些東西去汙染到雞蛋"},{"start":17213.65,"end":17215.65,"text":"所以雞蛋出問題是這樣來的"},{"start":17215.65,"end":17218.65,"text":"我們這件在講的是在講"},{"start":17219.5,"end":17221.5,"text":"分普林"},{"start":17221.5,"end":17223.5,"text":"飛撲帕斯特林"},{"start":17223.5,"end":17225.5,"text":"這這這"},{"start":17226.1,"end":17230.1,"text":"那這一次的出問題是我們從0.5ppm"},{"start":17230.1,"end":17232.1,"text":"直接調到3.0"},{"start":17232.1,"end":17234.1,"text":"那在"},{"start":17236.54,"end":17238.54,"text":"Cortex"},{"start":17238.54,"end":17240.54,"text":"歐洲的法典委員會是"},{"start":17240.54,"end":17242.54,"text":"2"},{"start":17241.54,"end":17243.54,"text":"日本也是2"},{"start":17243.54,"end":17245.54,"text":"2.0ppm"},{"start":17245.54,"end":17247.54,"text":"那一半是2"},{"start":17248,"end":17250,"text":"那Hungolt 3"},{"start":17250,"end":17252,"text":"那我們這次從0.5一加調到3"},{"start":17253.13,"end":17255.13,"text":"大家都覺得是受美國的壓力"},{"start":17256.63,"end":17258.63,"text":"是不是這樣"},{"start":17258.63,"end":17260.63,"text":"應該沒有這樣"},{"start":17260.63,"end":17262.63,"text":"據我所知到食藥署"},{"start":17262.63,"end":17264.63,"text":"跟韓國看齊"},{"start":17264.63,"end":17266.63,"text":"像美國低頭"},{"start":17265.45,"end":17267.45,"text":"美國是5那你乾脆調到5好了"},{"start":17267.45,"end":17269.45,"text":"不是更更更貼切"},{"start":17270.53,"end":17272.53,"text":"有沒有這回事"},{"start":17272.94,"end":17274.94,"text":"沒有應該是據我所知到食藥署"},{"start":17274.94,"end":17276.94,"text":"都是經過科學評估之後"},{"start":17276.94,"end":17278.94,"text":"然後才去"},{"start":17278.94,"end":17280.94,"text":"然後經過相關委員討論之後"},{"start":17283.39,"end":17285.39,"text":"才會定"},{"start":17285.39,"end":17287.39,"text":"然後他會全盤考慮"},{"start":17287.39,"end":17289.39,"text":"因為不是只有蘋果這個項目"},{"start":17289.39,"end":17291.39,"text":"可能還有其他的"},{"start":17291.39,"end":17293.39,"text":"作物全部要納進來看他總共的"},{"start":17293.39,"end":17295.39,"text":"暴露量"},{"start":17295.39,"end":17297.39,"text":"蝶米啦蔬菜啦什麼都有嘛"},{"start":17297.39,"end":17299.39,"text":"美國過來草莓啦"},{"start":17299.39,"end":17301.39,"text":"萊仔有啦"},{"start":17301.39,"end":17303.39,"text":"澎哥也有"},{"start":17303.39,"end":17305.39,"text":"像櫻桃就比較下修"},{"start":17305.39,"end":17307.39,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":17307.39,"end":17309.39,"text":"那你草莓是1.0多少"},{"start":17309.39,"end":17311.39,"text":"2.0"},{"start":17310.2,"end":17312.2,"text":"2.0"},{"start":17311.64,"end":17313.64,"text":"2.0"},{"start":17313.93,"end":17315.93,"text":"草莓是2嘛"},{"start":17315.93,"end":17317.93,"text":"那你為什麼蘋果會用3"},{"start":17319.23,"end":17321.23,"text":"你為什麼媽做給你偷東西"},{"start":17322.72,"end":17324.72,"text":"跟委員這邊報告"},{"start":17324.72,"end":17326.72,"text":"因為每個我們會進入他"},{"start":17326.72,"end":17328.72,"text":"農業事件叫GAP裡面的農場"},{"start":17328.72,"end":17330.72,"text":"26場面有符合GAP的"},{"start":17330.72,"end":17332.72,"text":"叫Good Agricultural"},{"start":17332.72,"end":17334.72,"text":"Practice的數據裡面"},{"start":17334.72,"end":17336.72,"text":"可信可用的"},{"start":17336.97,"end":17338.97,"text":"才能夠進入我們的OECD的計算公式"},{"start":17338.97,"end":17340.97,"text":"套用我們國內的"},{"start":17340.97,"end":17342.97,"text":"以此的設施量"},{"start":17342.97,"end":17344.97,"text":"去計算完之後呢"},{"start":17344.97,"end":17346.97,"text":"我們申請他們是申請我們覺得"},{"start":17346.97,"end":17348.97,"text":"看完之後的數據其實是在3"},{"start":17348.97,"end":17350.97,"text":"所以才會定在3"},{"start":17350.97,"end":17352.97,"text":"從早上聽到現在都說專家專家"},{"start":17352.97,"end":17354.97,"text":"專家"},{"start":17354.97,"end":17356.97,"text":"澳洲法典委員會就說2.0"},{"start":17356.97,"end":17358.97,"text":"你就結局你就變3.0"},{"start":17358.97,"end":17360.97,"text":"大家感覺"},{"start":17360.97,"end":17362.97,"text":"很虛聞"},{"start":17362.97,"end":17364.97,"text":"我也覺得很虛聞"},{"start":17364.97,"end":17366.97,"text":"然後2.0也有3.0"},{"start":17366.97,"end":17368.97,"text":"澳洲法典委員會"},{"start":17368.97,"end":17370.97,"text":"因為這是非常老的藥"},{"start":17370.97,"end":17372.97,"text":"大概是民國60幾年台灣就已經"},{"start":17372.97,"end":17374.97,"text":"合了"},{"start":17374.19,"end":17376.19,"text":"那是農藥"},{"start":17376.19,"end":17378.19,"text":"非常老的農藥"},{"start":17378.19,"end":17380.19,"text":"所以很早很早就合完之後"},{"start":17380.19,"end":17382.19,"text":"我們在88年"},{"start":17382.19,"end":17384.19,"text":"已經定在離果類"},{"start":17384.19,"end":17386.19,"text":"因為離果類其實範圍很寬很廣"},{"start":17386.19,"end":17388.19,"text":"對於個別的"},{"start":17388.19,"end":17390.19,"text":"飲食的水果裡面"},{"start":17390.19,"end":17392.19,"text":"其實為了更精準的去對每個水果裡面"},{"start":17392.19,"end":17394.19,"text":"對應出來的"},{"start":17394.19,"end":17396.19,"text":"所以才會在後續的提出申請之下"},{"start":17396.19,"end":17398.19,"text":"經過評估調整出來的結果"},{"start":17398.19,"end":17400.19,"text":"大概簡單說"},{"start":17400.19,"end":17402.19,"text":"所以你現在離果類改成3"},{"start":17401.97,"end":17403.97,"text":"2"},{"start":17402.81,"end":17404.81,"text":"各項裡面蘋果"},{"start":17404.81,"end":17406.81,"text":"改成是3"},{"start":17406.81,"end":17408.81,"text":"舉個例子我們這邊說明"},{"start":17408.81,"end":17410.81,"text":"蘋果是3"},{"start":17410.81,"end":17412.81,"text":"桃子是1.4"},{"start":17412.81,"end":17414.81,"text":"油桃是1.4"},{"start":17414.81,"end":17416.81,"text":"葡萄柚是0.9"},{"start":17416.81,"end":17418.81,"text":"柳橙是2.0"},{"start":17418.81,"end":17420.81,"text":"所以每個都有算"},{"start":17420.81,"end":17422.81,"text":"對於櫻桃本來是定在5的"},{"start":17422.81,"end":17424.81,"text":"我們重新去計算送上來的時候"},{"start":17424.81,"end":17426.81,"text":"算起來應該是可以更嚴格的"},{"start":17426.81,"end":17428.81,"text":"我們就把它調下來變成3"},{"start":17428.81,"end":17430.81,"text":"所以5也有調成3"},{"start":17430.81,"end":17432.81,"text":"所有都放寬"},{"start":17432.81,"end":17434.81,"text":"櫻桃就是更嚴格"},{"start":17434.81,"end":17436.81,"text":"那我們也收到一些"},{"start":17436.81,"end":17438.81,"text":"櫻桃不下皮"},{"start":17439.48,"end":17441.48,"text":"你澎哥又在下皮"},{"start":17441.48,"end":17443.48,"text":"賴仔又在下皮"},{"start":17443.48,"end":17445.48,"text":"所以你的櫻桃、草莓"},{"start":17445.48,"end":17447.48,"text":"那是很可怕你如果"},{"start":17447.48,"end":17449.48,"text":"有殘餘的榮耀那是一架"},{"start":17449.48,"end":17451.48,"text":"洗一洗就吃下去了"},{"start":17451.48,"end":17453.48,"text":"蘋果其實我們"},{"start":17453.48,"end":17455.48,"text":"去測的時候的東西"},{"start":17455.48,"end":17457.48,"text":"也是整顆在測的"},{"start":17457.48,"end":17459.48,"text":"不是說把它削皮"},{"start":17459.48,"end":17461.48,"text":"如果真的國人有擔心"},{"start":17461.48,"end":17463.48,"text":"沒有啦我說我們吃的習慣"},{"start":17463.48,"end":17465.48,"text":"我講的就是"},{"start":17465.48,"end":17467.48,"text":"你只聽美工說美工人不怕死的"},{"start":17467.48,"end":17469.48,"text":"都不會吃"},{"start":17469.48,"end":17471.48,"text":"整個櫻桃都吃皮了"},{"start":17472.42,"end":17474.42,"text":"你講的跟我一樣下皮"},{"start":17474.42,"end":17476.42,"text":"每天一顆蘋果今天忘了帶來"},{"start":17477.32,"end":17479.32,"text":"好啦"},{"start":17478.99,"end":17480.99,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":17479.68,"end":17481.68,"text":"嚴格的evaluation一下"},{"start":17481.68,"end":17483.68,"text":"不要讓"},{"start":17485.13,"end":17487.13,"text":"國人百姓會擔憂"},{"start":17487.13,"end":17489.13,"text":"當然是會擔憂啊你一下子"},{"start":17489.13,"end":17491.13,"text":"從那麼低0.5一下跳到3.0"},{"start":17491.13,"end":17493.13,"text":"我第一個問題"},{"start":17493.13,"end":17495.13,"text":"你會不會直接跳5.0跟美國"},{"start":17495.13,"end":17497.13,"text":"切齊"},{"start":17497.13,"end":17499.13,"text":"那不是更好"},{"start":17498.02,"end":17500.02,"text":"對美國有交代"},{"start":17500.02,"end":17502.02,"text":"跟委員特別報告一下"},{"start":17502.02,"end":17504.02,"text":"因為這個定的標準"},{"start":17504.02,"end":17506.02,"text":"是我們的管制標準"},{"start":17506.02,"end":17508.02,"text":"其實在田間試驗我們邊境裡面"},{"start":17508.02,"end":17510.02,"text":"看到的確是一直都是"},{"start":17510.02,"end":17512.02,"text":"合格的相對是更低的"},{"start":17512.02,"end":17514.02,"text":"所以我們的標準並不會改變進來"},{"start":17514.02,"end":17516.02,"text":"台灣的狀態"},{"start":17516.02,"end":17518.02,"text":"我想這部分也特別跟"},{"start":17518.02,"end":17520.02,"text":"委員部進一步的報告"},{"start":17521.02,"end":17523.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":17524.01,"end":17526.01,"text":"謝謝蘇勛全委的諮詢"},{"start":17526.01,"end":17528.01,"text":"接下來請圖權及委員諮詢"},{"start":17540.53,"end":17542.53,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":17542.53,"end":17544.53,"text":"麻煩我們時部長"},{"start":17547.84,"end":17549.84,"text":"圖委員好"},{"start":17565.18,"end":17567.18,"text":"要設實驗室嘛對不對"},{"start":17567.18,"end":17569.18,"text":"然後至少"},{"start":17569.66,"end":17571.66,"text":"每半年要做一次檢驗"},{"start":17571.66,"end":17573.66,"text":"然後訂定"},{"start":17573.66,"end":17575.66,"text":"食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":17575.66,"end":17577.66,"text":"因為我有看這個實驗法上面的規定"},{"start":17577.66,"end":17579.66,"text":"我們現在是公告"},{"start":17579.66,"end":17581.66,"text":"1億元以上的是要自設"},{"start":17581.66,"end":17583.66,"text":"然後3000萬以上的話"},{"start":17583.66,"end":17585.66,"text":"他就要檢驗是沒有錯"},{"start":17585.66,"end":17587.66,"text":"所以3000萬至少"},{"start":17587.66,"end":17589.66,"text":"半年一定要檢驗一次"},{"start":17589.66,"end":17591.66,"text":"然後送交這個檢驗報告"},{"start":17591.66,"end":17593.66,"text":"對"},{"start":17593.66,"end":17595.66,"text":"所以我們當然我們有三道"},{"start":17595.66,"end":17597.66,"text":"關卡第一道就是自主"},{"start":17597.66,"end":17599.66,"text":"檢驗第二道就是外部檢驗"},{"start":17599.66,"end":17601.66,"text":"第三道才到我們後市場的"},{"start":17601.66,"end":17603.66,"text":"查驗"},{"start":17603.66,"end":17605.66,"text":"那我也想了解一下上次"},{"start":17605.66,"end":17607.66,"text":"我們質詢完之後"},{"start":17607.66,"end":17609.66,"text":"也有跟衛福部來所知"},{"start":17609.66,"end":17611.66,"text":"就是說針對我們"},{"start":17611.66,"end":17613.66,"text":"像"},{"start":17612.94,"end":17614.94,"text":"中年"},{"start":17614.21,"end":17616.21,"text":"中年有止"},{"start":17616.21,"end":17618.21,"text":"那我請問一下他這個外部檢驗"},{"start":17618.21,"end":17620.21,"text":"自主檢驗到底有沒有錯"},{"start":17619.78,"end":17621.78,"text":"哦"},{"start":17620.72,"end":17622.72,"text":"他的自主檢驗報告是有的"},{"start":17622.72,"end":17624.72,"text":"但是"},{"start":17624.72,"end":17626.72,"text":"跟委員報告他都是合格的"},{"start":17626.72,"end":17628.72,"text":"他自主檢驗的"},{"start":17628.72,"end":17630.72,"text":"報告是合格的"},{"start":17630.72,"end":17632.72,"text":"那我們自己的外部查驗不是半年"},{"start":17632.72,"end":17634.72,"text":"要做一次嗎"},{"start":17634.72,"end":17636.72,"text":"但是我們現在外部的"},{"start":17636.72,"end":17638.72,"text":"外部的那個是後市場稽查"},{"start":17638.72,"end":17640.72,"text":"另外一個就是第三方"},{"start":17640.72,"end":17642.72,"text":"的驗證是HACCP"},{"start":17642.72,"end":17644.72,"text":"的驗證單位"},{"start":17644.72,"end":17646.72,"text":"會去做"},{"start":17646.72,"end":17648.72,"text":"那為什麼我們"},{"start":17648.72,"end":17650.72,"text":"就看這個報告這個資料一直看不到"},{"start":17650.72,"end":17652.72,"text":"他有這個"},{"start":17652.72,"end":17654.72,"text":"應該是這樣子講"},{"start":17654.72,"end":17656.72,"text":"他自己的實驗室沒有驗BAP這一項"},{"start":17656.72,"end":17658.72,"text":"所以他的BAP"},{"start":17658.72,"end":17660.72,"text":"是外送檢驗"},{"start":17660.72,"end":17662.72,"text":"所以他等於也是外送檢驗的"},{"start":17663.4,"end":17665.4,"text":"所以難怪"},{"start":17665.4,"end":17667.4,"text":"重點我們沒有監督"},{"start":17667.4,"end":17669.4,"text":"我們並沒有看到他的"},{"start":17669.4,"end":17671.4,"text":"檢驗的報告"},{"start":17671.45,"end":17673.45,"text":"一直跟衛福部要這資料就沒有拿到"},{"start":17673.45,"end":17675.45,"text":"檢驗報告"},{"start":17675.45,"end":17677.45,"text":"是我們可以提供"},{"start":17677.45,"end":17679.45,"text":"因為我們有跟他要"},{"start":17679.45,"end":17681.45,"text":"檢驗報告是目前並沒有"},{"start":17681.45,"end":17683.45,"text":"要求所有都上傳"},{"start":17683.45,"end":17685.45,"text":"就是檢驗報告是流場備查"},{"start":17685.45,"end":17687.45,"text":"就是我們這個地方"},{"start":17687.45,"end":17689.45,"text":"主管機關去稽查的時候"},{"start":17689.45,"end":17691.45,"text":"要查閱他這些報告"},{"start":17691.45,"end":17693.45,"text":"因為看食安法這規定"},{"start":17693.45,"end":17695.45,"text":"半年至少半年"},{"start":17695.45,"end":17697.45,"text":"要做一次"},{"start":17697.45,"end":17699.45,"text":"那我們就沒有看到他這檢驗的報告"},{"start":17699.45,"end":17701.45,"text":"所以是不是合格的"},{"start":17701.45,"end":17703.45,"text":"依法他也要求"},{"start":17703.45,"end":17705.45,"text":"是要公開他的報告結果"},{"start":17705.45,"end":17707.45,"text":"那這個也不是什麼機密"},{"start":17707.45,"end":17709.45,"text":"為什麼要這資料一直拿不到"},{"start":17709.45,"end":17711.45,"text":"有沒有提供"},{"start":17711.45,"end":17713.45,"text":"委員在所知有沒有提供"},{"start":17713.45,"end":17715.45,"text":"我們在提供"},{"start":17715.45,"end":17717.45,"text":"從上次質詢完第二天就開始要這資料"},{"start":17717.45,"end":17719.45,"text":"一直就要不到"},{"start":17719.45,"end":17721.45,"text":"我們等下馬上送過去給委員"},{"start":17721.45,"end":17723.45,"text":"因為我想說你這個本來食安法"},{"start":17723.45,"end":17725.45,"text":"就規定的"},{"start":17725.45,"end":17727.45,"text":"半年至少要做一次這個檢驗"},{"start":17727.45,"end":17729.45,"text":"他的報告內容都"},{"start":17729.45,"end":17731.45,"text":"他的報告的檢驗結果都是"},{"start":17731.45,"end":17733.45,"text":"合標啦"},{"start":17733.45,"end":17735.45,"text":"這個是我們的質疑"},{"start":17735.45,"end":17737.45,"text":"所以我們衛福部針對"},{"start":17737.45,"end":17739.45,"text":"中聯福壽福茂太山"},{"start":17739.45,"end":17741.45,"text":"南橋這些"},{"start":17741.45,"end":17743.45,"text":"我們都半年都有"},{"start":17743.45,"end":17745.45,"text":"按照規定去檢驗"},{"start":17745.45,"end":17747.45,"text":"然後都有他檢驗報告嗎"},{"start":17747.45,"end":17749.45,"text":"這一次都有去查場"},{"start":17749.45,"end":17751.45,"text":"查的話他們都有按規定"},{"start":17751.45,"end":17753.45,"text":"有的他甚至是"},{"start":17753.45,"end":17755.45,"text":"一劑檢驗一次"},{"start":17755.32,"end":17757.32,"text":"因為我們這裡是半年至少"},{"start":17757.32,"end":17759.32,"text":"所以也有一劑檢驗"},{"start":17759.32,"end":17761.32,"text":"所以重點都一直有按照"},{"start":17761.32,"end":17763.32,"text":"這個規定的時間去查驗"},{"start":17763.32,"end":17765.32,"text":"都有這查驗報告有時間"},{"start":17765.32,"end":17767.32,"text":"有檢驗報告嗎什麼時候去查"},{"start":17767.32,"end":17769.32,"text":"最少半年要一次"},{"start":17769.32,"end":17771.32,"text":"有沒有這個數據"},{"start":17771.32,"end":17773.32,"text":"因為一直認為說要不出資料"},{"start":17773.32,"end":17775.32,"text":"到底有沒有按照規定去查驗"},{"start":17775.32,"end":17777.32,"text":"這個是這樣這一些都是"},{"start":17777.32,"end":17779.32,"text":"他要按照這個自主"},{"start":17779.32,"end":17781.32,"text":"檢驗的一部分自主檢驗"},{"start":17781.32,"end":17783.32,"text":"要驗然後他的報告要留存"},{"start":17783.32,"end":17785.32,"text":"然後地方去查"},{"start":17785.32,"end":17787.32,"text":"查場的時候他就要"},{"start":17787.32,"end":17789.32,"text":"提供這些資料讓他查"},{"start":17789.74,"end":17791.74,"text":"他的概念是這樣"},{"start":17819.74,"end":17821.74,"text":"今天也有建立我們食品追溯"},{"start":17821.74,"end":17823.74,"text":"追蹤系統"},{"start":17823.74,"end":17825.74,"text":"這個管理嘛對不對"},{"start":17825.74,"end":17827.74,"text":"對有"},{"start":17826.83,"end":17828.83,"text":"那為什麼我們上去查"},{"start":17828.83,"end":17830.83,"text":"那福壽"},{"start":17830.83,"end":17832.83,"text":"只有上傳到去年的"},{"start":17832.83,"end":17834.83,"text":"七月然後從七月以後"},{"start":17834.83,"end":17836.83,"text":"一直到今年都沒有"},{"start":17836.83,"end":17838.83,"text":"上傳"},{"start":17838.83,"end":17840.83,"text":"泰山泰山更離譜"},{"start":17840.83,"end":17842.83,"text":"上傳到2021"},{"start":17842.83,"end":17844.83,"text":"2021年的1月"},{"start":17844.83,"end":17846.83,"text":"就沒有再上傳所以"},{"start":17846.83,"end":17848.83,"text":"這個業者這個資訊"},{"start":17848.83,"end":17850.83,"text":"你們自己建立這個管理系統"},{"start":17850.83,"end":17852.83,"text":"他們都沒有按照規定"},{"start":17852.83,"end":17854.83,"text":"上傳你沒有監督"},{"start":17854.83,"end":17856.83,"text":"也都沒有去處理"},{"start":17856.83,"end":17858.83,"text":"難道沒有監督也沒有任何處理辦法"},{"start":17858.83,"end":17860.83,"text":"那你訂定這個管理"},{"start":17860.83,"end":17862.83,"text":"辦法管理系統什麼意義"},{"start":17862.83,"end":17864.83,"text":"然後我們監督單位"},{"start":17864.83,"end":17866.83,"text":"他們沒有上傳你們也沒去"},{"start":17866.83,"end":17868.83,"text":"處理然後等到事情爆發"},{"start":17868.83,"end":17870.83,"text":"之後才發現都沒有"},{"start":17870.83,"end":17872.83,"text":"按照規定來辦沒有按照規定去"},{"start":17872.83,"end":17874.83,"text":"查驗"},{"start":17875.84,"end":17877.84,"text":"我們是不是再跟委員確認一下"},{"start":17877.84,"end":17879.84,"text":"因為我們同仁查的"},{"start":17879.84,"end":17881.84,"text":"是都有所以是不是"},{"start":17881.84,"end":17883.84,"text":"在那個我們都有上網去查"},{"start":17887.33,"end":17889.33,"text":"來跟委員說明一下那個系統在哪裡"},{"start":17891.24,"end":17893.24,"text":"是跟委員報告"},{"start":17893.24,"end":17895.24,"text":"那這一些東西都是會在我們"},{"start":17895.24,"end":17897.24,"text":"非最不可的平台裡面"},{"start":17897.24,"end":17899.24,"text":"那這個部分的話如果委員"},{"start":17899.24,"end":17901.24,"text":"秀的是這個圖示的話應該是"},{"start":17901.24,"end":17903.24,"text":"在我們另外一個公開的"},{"start":17903.24,"end":17905.24,"text":"平台應該是不一樣的地方"},{"start":17905.24,"end":17907.24,"text":"以上"},{"start":17906.52,"end":17908.52,"text":"所以我這邊"},{"start":17908.52,"end":17910.52,"text":"我希望我們"},{"start":17910.52,"end":17912.52,"text":"因為我們要這資料要這麼久"},{"start":17912.52,"end":17914.52,"text":"都沒拿到我們上去查也沒查到"},{"start":17914.52,"end":17916.52,"text":"那你這個本來就是"},{"start":17916.52,"end":17918.52,"text":"公開的系統就是要讓民眾"},{"start":17918.52,"end":17920.52,"text":"去了解我們要讓"},{"start":17920.52,"end":17922.52,"text":"民眾知道我們衛福部"},{"start":17922.52,"end":17924.52,"text":"我們食藥署有沒有按照"},{"start":17924.52,"end":17926.52,"text":"自己食安法的規定"},{"start":17926.52,"end":17928.52,"text":"在監督我們的業者"},{"start":17928.52,"end":17930.52,"text":"那我們看到就這麼久都沒做"},{"start":17930.52,"end":17932.52,"text":"跟你們要資料又要不到"},{"start":17932.52,"end":17934.52,"text":"我們就合理懷疑根本沒有落實"},{"start":17934.52,"end":17936.52,"text":"這個查驗然後業者也沒做"},{"start":17936.52,"end":17938.52,"text":"你們也沒好好的監督啊"},{"start":17938.52,"end":17940.52,"text":"所以才會後面爆發這麼多的問題"},{"start":17940.52,"end":17942.52,"text":"跟委員抱歉我們沒有及時"},{"start":17942.52,"end":17944.52,"text":"提供資料我們待會立刻就補"},{"start":17944.52,"end":17946.52,"text":"好我們希望這個"},{"start":17946.52,"end":17948.52,"text":"管理系統"},{"start":17948.52,"end":17950.52,"text":"全部一定要來更新"},{"start":17950.52,"end":17952.52,"text":"現在有爆發這個事情"},{"start":17952.52,"end":17954.52,"text":"我們也擔心有沒有其他的"},{"start":17954.52,"end":17956.52,"text":"食品也有相關的問題"},{"start":17956.52,"end":17958.52,"text":"所以一定要落實我們自己"},{"start":17958.52,"end":17960.52,"text":"食安法你自己建立這個管理"},{"start":17960.52,"end":17962.52,"text":"系統業者有沒有做"},{"start":17962.52,"end":17964.52,"text":"我們主管單位有沒有去監督"},{"start":17964.52,"end":17966.52,"text":"這個都是我們應該要"},{"start":17966.52,"end":17968.52,"text":"落實去做的吧"},{"start":17968.5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,"end":18166.62,"text":"我們看他公佈的就是我們"},{"start":18166.62,"end":18168.62,"text":"眼衰"},{"start":18168.62,"end":18170.62,"text":"真的是台灣農民希望"},{"start":18170.62,"end":18172.62,"text":"這個可以放寬的"},{"start":18172.62,"end":18174.62,"text":"那蘋果我們上面也看得很清楚"},{"start":18174.62,"end":18176.62,"text":"就是業者的申請"},{"start":18176.62,"end":18178.62,"text":"所以部長那時候說蘋果"},{"start":18178.62,"end":18180.62,"text":"是農民跟業者的需要"},{"start":18180.62,"end":18182.62,"text":"我們看了我真的是傻眼"},{"start":18182.62,"end":18184.62,"text":"我相信台灣的農民"},{"start":18184.62,"end":18186.62,"text":"台灣的蘋果他怎麼會希望放寬"},{"start":18186.62,"end":18188.62,"text":"他只占台灣市場的0.7%"},{"start":18188.62,"end":18190.62,"text":"他怎麼會希望放寬"},{"start":18190.62,"end":18192.62,"text":"所以我希望"},{"start":18195.23,"end":18197.23,"text":"部長在回答的時候我突然"},{"start":18197.23,"end":18199.23,"text":"會覺得說我們的衛福部"},{"start":18199.23,"end":18201.23,"text":"蘋果這分普林的放寬"},{"start":18201.23,"end":18203.23,"text":"怎麼會因應美國農民"},{"start":18203.23,"end":18205.23,"text":"業者的需求"},{"start":18205.23,"end":18207.23,"text":"我覺得我們是台灣的"},{"start":18207.23,"end":18209.23,"text":"衛福部不是美國的衛福部"},{"start":18209.23,"end":18211.23,"text":"不是美國的FDA"},{"start":18212.39,"end":18214.39,"text":"所以這部分我覺得"},{"start":18214.39,"end":18216.39,"text":"部長在回答的時候"},{"start":18216.26,"end":18218.26,"text":"讓我們有很大想像的空間"},{"start":18218.26,"end":18220.26,"text":"當時候可能那個報導"},{"start":18220.26,"end":18222.26,"text":"沒有把它寫清楚"},{"start":18222.26,"end":18224.26,"text":"我講的是這一次4月全部所"},{"start":18224.26,"end":18226.26,"text":"調整的是"},{"start":18226.26,"end":18228.26,"text":"有這兩個來源"},{"start":18228.26,"end":18230.26,"text":"而且你看我們看你們公布的"},{"start":18231.78,"end":18233.78,"text":"農藥殘留容許量標準"},{"start":18233.78,"end":18235.78,"text":"你說這個業者申請"},{"start":18235.78,"end":18237.78,"text":"而且他完全都是"},{"start":18237.78,"end":18239.78,"text":"採用符合美國登記的施用方法"},{"start":18239.78,"end":18241.78,"text":"跟施藥方法"},{"start":18241.78,"end":18243.78,"text":"來做所以這部分"},{"start":18243.78,"end":18245.78,"text":"我們就"},{"start":18245.18,"end":18247.18,"text":"會認為是不是因為是"},{"start":18247.49,"end":18249.49,"text":"美國要求放寬的"},{"start":18250.78,"end":18252.78,"text":"這個跟委員說明"},{"start":18252.78,"end":18254.78,"text":"他其實是有兩段"},{"start":18254.78,"end":18256.78,"text":"一個是按照他的標準施作"},{"start":18256.78,"end":18258.78,"text":"就是GAH"},{"start":18258.78,"end":18260.78,"text":"去操作出來"},{"start":18260.78,"end":18262.78,"text":"那麼可能的"},{"start":18262.78,"end":18264.78,"text":"殘留量然後再套進"},{"start":18264.78,"end":18266.78,"text":"公式導入"},{"start":18266.78,"end":18268.78,"text":"這個國人的"},{"start":18268.78,"end":18270.78,"text":"使用習慣才會訂出來"},{"start":18270.78,"end":18272.78,"text":"所以才會有每個國家不一樣"},{"start":18272.78,"end":18274.78,"text":"因為這個一下子的大幅放寬"},{"start":18274.78,"end":18276.78,"text":"也難怪國人對這個"},{"start":18276.78,"end":18278.78,"text":"食安現在剛好"},{"start":18278.78,"end":18280.78,"text":"又爆發這個使用油"},{"start":18280.78,"end":18282.78,"text":"然後一下子又蘋果"},{"start":18282.78,"end":18284.78,"text":"為什麼說毒蘋果"},{"start":18284.78,"end":18286.78,"text":"從0.5ppm一下放大六倍"},{"start":18286.78,"end":18288.78,"text":"到3ppm然後又剛好"},{"start":18288.78,"end":18290.78,"text":"碰到你看114年9月24號"},{"start":18290.78,"end":18292.78,"text":"我們開了第四次的"},{"start":18292.78,"end":18294.78,"text":"食品衛生安全營養之一會"},{"start":18294.78,"end":18296.78,"text":"然後"},{"start":18296.78,"end":18298.78,"text":"在115年2月12號"},{"start":18298.78,"end":18300.78,"text":"我們行政院"},{"start":18300.78,"end":18302.78,"text":"經貿辦公室跟美國"},{"start":18302.78,"end":18304.78,"text":"貿易代表完成"},{"start":18304.78,"end":18306.78,"text":"台美對等貿易協定"},{"start":18306.78,"end":18308.78,"text":"也是我們說的art"},{"start":18310.38,"end":18312.38,"text":"美國就在"},{"start":18312.38,"end":18314.38,"text":"115年3月31號公佈"},{"start":18314.38,"end":18316.38,"text":"2026年"},{"start":18316.38,"end":18318.38,"text":"貿易障礙報告"},{"start":18318.38,"end":18320.38,"text":"這個時候我們才發現"},{"start":18320.38,"end":18322.38,"text":"原來我們行政院"},{"start":18322.38,"end":18324.38,"text":"經辦居然犧牲國人"},{"start":18324.38,"end":18326.38,"text":"食安好大幅"},{"start":18326.97,"end":18328.97,"text":"來放寬"},{"start":18328.53,"end":18330.53,"text":"這個農藥最大殘留容許量"},{"start":18330.53,"end":18332.53,"text":"來降低貿易障礙"},{"start":18332.53,"end":18334.53,"text":"所以這一部分"},{"start":18334.53,"end":18336.53,"text":"我們就合理的認為"},{"start":18336.53,"end":18338.53,"text":"是不是完全就是因為"},{"start":18338.53,"end":18340.53,"text":"這個對等貿易來犧牲"},{"start":18340.53,"end":18342.53,"text":"我們國人的食安健康"},{"start":18342.53,"end":18344.53,"text":"跟委員說明不會"},{"start":18344.53,"end":18346.53,"text":"我們衛福部主要就是"},{"start":18346.53,"end":18348.53,"text":"確保國人的健康"},{"start":18348.53,"end":18350.53,"text":"所以這個一定為食安把關"},{"start":18350.53,"end":18352.53,"text":"那麼這個程序上其實是"},{"start":18352.53,"end":18354.53,"text":"進行很久"},{"start":18354.53,"end":18356.53,"text":"就如果我剛剛說明的這個品項的提出"},{"start":18356.53,"end":18358.53,"text":"是在111年就已經提出來"},{"start":18358.53,"end":18360.53,"text":"這中間進行了很多次"},{"start":18360.53,"end":18362.53,"text":"包含這些資料的補充"},{"start":18362.53,"end":18364.53,"text":"收集"},{"start":18364.53,"end":18366.53,"text":"然後再進行評估"},{"start":18366.53,"end":18368.53,"text":"直到114年的9月"},{"start":18368.53,"end":18370.53,"text":"才開會確認"},{"start":18370.53,"end":18372.53,"text":"我們是連同其他的品項"},{"start":18372.53,"end":18374.53,"text":"在115年的1月份"},{"start":18374.53,"end":18376.53,"text":"做預告"},{"start":18376.53,"end":18378.53,"text":"預告60日之後"},{"start":18378.53,"end":18380.53,"text":"沒有評論的意見"},{"start":18380.53,"end":18382.53,"text":"我們才在4月正式公告"},{"start":18382.53,"end":18384.53,"text":"對啊"},{"start":18384.53,"end":18386.53,"text":"所以"},{"start":18386.53,"end":18388.53,"text":"剛剛我講這個時辰"},{"start":18388.53,"end":18390.53,"text":"你看"},{"start":18390.53,"end":18392.53,"text":"從我們政力軍"},{"start":18392.53,"end":18394.53,"text":"率團去談判"},{"start":18394.53,"end":18396.53,"text":"這一點串的"},{"start":18395.76,"end":18397.76,"text":"從我們自己的食安會議"},{"start":18397.76,"end":18399.76,"text":"再到行政院經貿辦公室"},{"start":18399.76,"end":18401.76,"text":"跟美國貿易"},{"start":18401.76,"end":18403.76,"text":"談判"},{"start":18403.76,"end":18405.76,"text":"後來針對這些的放寬"},{"start":18406.02,"end":18408.02,"text":"針對萊豬的內臟"},{"start":18408.02,"end":18410.02,"text":"發芽的馬鈴薯"},{"start":18410.02,"end":18412.02,"text":"還有現在再到芬普林的蘋果"},{"start":18412.02,"end":18414.02,"text":"我們說啊"},{"start":18414.02,"end":18416.02,"text":"連美國人自己都不吃的東西啊"},{"start":18416.02,"end":18418.02,"text":"結果我們大幅放寬"},{"start":18418.02,"end":18420.02,"text":"銷到台灣來"},{"start":18420.02,"end":18422.02,"text":"要讓我們的台灣人民吃"},{"start":18422.02,"end":18424.02,"text":"還有剛剛前面我也跟部長講"},{"start":18424.02,"end":18426.02,"text":"那時候我也是看到你"},{"start":18426.02,"end":18428.02,"text":"接受媒體的訪問"},{"start":18428.02,"end":18430.02,"text":"你說美國芬普林這蘋果"},{"start":18430.02,"end":18432.02,"text":"你說因應農民跟葉子的需求"},{"start":18432.02,"end":18434.02,"text":"所以一連串的行為啊"},{"start":18434.02,"end":18436.02,"text":"我們都認為說"},{"start":18436.02,"end":18438.02,"text":"是不是真的完全礙於美國"},{"start":18439.53,"end":18441.53,"text":"經貿對等談判的壓力"},{"start":18441.53,"end":18443.53,"text":"所以大幅放寬"},{"start":18443.53,"end":18445.53,"text":"這些東西的進口"},{"start":18445.53,"end":18447.53,"text":"讓美國人自己都不吃"},{"start":18447.53,"end":18449.53,"text":"然後把這個標準"},{"start":18449.53,"end":18451.53,"text":"一再的放寬"},{"start":18451.53,"end":18453.53,"text":"所以希望我們部長"},{"start":18453.53,"end":18455.53,"text":"還有署長針對這一部分"},{"start":18455.53,"end":18457.53,"text":"我們一定要捍衛"},{"start":18457.53,"end":18459.53,"text":"我們國人的健康"},{"start":18459.53,"end":18461.53,"text":"守護我們的食安"},{"start":18461.53,"end":18463.53,"text":"我說啊我們是台灣的衛福部部長"},{"start":18463.53,"end":18465.53,"text":"不是美國的FDA"},{"start":18465.53,"end":18467.53,"text":"所以希望我們還是以"},{"start":18467.53,"end":18469.53,"text":"國人的健康食安為前提好不好"},{"start":18469.53,"end":18471.53,"text":"一定這個"},{"start":18471.53,"end":18473.53,"text":"這個食安一定是為前提的"},{"start":18473.53,"end":18475.53,"text":"健康風險評估一定是我們在"},{"start":18475.53,"end":18477.53,"text":"調整所有標準"},{"start":18477.53,"end":18479.53,"text":"必要的程序"},{"start":18479.53,"end":18481.53,"text":"所以我們這個也都是按照"},{"start":18481.53,"end":18483.53,"text":"既定的程序走"},{"start":18483.53,"end":18485.53,"text":"這個跟這個ART美國的談判"},{"start":18485.53,"end":18487.53,"text":"這個是完全沒有關係"},{"start":18487.53,"end":18489.53,"text":"所以我們按照既定的程序"},{"start":18489.53,"end":18491.53,"text":"所以剛好這一連串的事情啊"},{"start":18491.53,"end":18493.53,"text":"現在又爆發這自來食用"},{"start":18493.53,"end":18495.53,"text":"有含這個很偏比"},{"start":18495.53,"end":18497.53,"text":"那也希望部長署長"},{"start":18497.53,"end":18499.53,"text":"拜託大家多加油"},{"start":18499.53,"end":18501.53,"text":"真的我們現在這食安問題"},{"start":18501.53,"end":18503.53,"text":"你看油的問題也出"},{"start":18503.53,"end":18505.53,"text":"然後美國進口的"},{"start":18505.53,"end":18507.53,"text":"這些食品全部"},{"start":18507.53,"end":18509.53,"text":"大幅放寬我相信"},{"start":18509.53,"end":18511.53,"text":"這不是民眾願意"},{"start":18511.53,"end":18513.53,"text":"接受的這些東西"},{"start":18513.53,"end":18515.53,"text":"能夠讓他大幅的進口"},{"start":18515.53,"end":18517.53,"text":"希望還是捍衛我們國人的健康"},{"start":18517.53,"end":18519.53,"text":"保護我們的食安"},{"start":18519.53,"end":18521.53,"text":"我們把關的這個"},{"start":18521.53,"end":18523.53,"text":"要求跟標準不會改變"},{"start":18523.53,"end":18525.53,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":18525.68,"end":18527.68,"text":"謝謝蘇貞瑄"},{"start":18527.68,"end":18529.68,"text":"現在突圈就有了自信"},{"start":18529.73,"end":18531.73,"text":"接下來請廖偉祥委員諮詢"},{"start":18538.64,"end":18540.64,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":18540.64,"end":18542.64,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":18544.64,"end":18546.64,"text":"部長好"},{"start":18546.64,"end":18548.64,"text":"部長我想我就直接問喔"},{"start":18548.64,"end":18550.64,"text":"我想要先請教啊"},{"start":18550.64,"end":18552.64,"text":"目前這一次致癌的"},{"start":18552.64,"end":18554.64,"text":"這個中聯友這個事件"},{"start":18554.64,"end":18556.64,"text":"現在的源頭陳盈"},{"start":18556.64,"end":18558.64,"text":"到底有沒有已經確定了"},{"start":18558.64,"end":18560.64,"text":"是黃豆的原料製成"},{"start":18560.64,"end":18562.64,"text":"還是因為廠商放寬什麼"},{"start":18562.64,"end":18564.64,"text":"十倍的黃豆的允收標準"},{"start":18564.64,"end":18566.64,"text":"才導致到底是哪一個"},{"start":18566.64,"end":18568.64,"text":"你們現在查的狀況如何"},{"start":18568.64,"end":18570.64,"text":"根據我們之前的查場"},{"start":18570.64,"end":18572.64,"text":"還有之後呢我們把這所有的"},{"start":18572.64,"end":18574.64,"text":"P的重新都檢驗出來的"},{"start":18574.64,"end":18576.64,"text":"檢驗結果"},{"start":18576.64,"end":18578.64,"text":"然後昨日呢又"},{"start":18578.64,"end":18580.64,"text":"有這個專家在進場"},{"start":18580.64,"end":18582.64,"text":"再去做最後的比對"},{"start":18582.64,"end":18584.64,"text":"那麼現在最大的因素"},{"start":18584.64,"end":18586.64,"text":"還是會歸因"},{"start":18586.64,"end":18588.64,"text":"在這個原料"},{"start":18588.64,"end":18590.64,"text":"所以是黃豆原料的問題嗎"},{"start":18590.64,"end":18592.64,"text":"對 它的某一些P次的品質"},{"start":18592.64,"end":18594.64,"text":"確實是不好"},{"start":18594.64,"end":18596.64,"text":"原料出了問題喔"},{"start":18596.64,"end":18598.64,"text":"所以你現在確定了嗎"},{"start":18598.64,"end":18600.64,"text":"確定是原料不是製成"},{"start":18600.64,"end":18602.64,"text":"P次 當然它的製成上"},{"start":18602.64,"end":18604.64,"text":"有多像沒有符合"},{"start":18604.64,"end":18606.64,"text":"HACCP的那個"},{"start":18606.64,"end":18608.64,"text":"管制點"},{"start":18608.64,"end":18610.64,"text":"那個管制點上檢查點上"},{"start":18610.64,"end":18612.64,"text":"也沒有符合這個標準的要求"},{"start":18612.64,"end":18614.64,"text":"所以我還是聽不懂"},{"start":18614.64,"end":18616.64,"text":"到底是哪一個原因 還是兩個都是原因"},{"start":18616.64,"end":18618.64,"text":"如果簡單的講就是"},{"start":18618.64,"end":18620.64,"text":"它的先天就不良"},{"start":18620.64,"end":18622.64,"text":"但是後天又沒有調"},{"start":18622.64,"end":18624.64,"text":"所以你的意思就"},{"start":18624.64,"end":18626.64,"text":"我重整一下喔 因為這個很重要"},{"start":18626.64,"end":18628.64,"text":"所以你的講法就是"},{"start":18628.64,"end":18630.64,"text":"原料有問題 製成也有問題"},{"start":18630.64,"end":18632.64,"text":"是不是"},{"start":18632.64,"end":18634.64,"text":"所以兩個都有問題"},{"start":18634.64,"end":18636.64,"text":"好 確定喔"},{"start":18636.64,"end":18638.64,"text":"當然是原料的貢獻"},{"start":18638.64,"end":18640.64,"text":"會更高一些"},{"start":18640.64,"end":18642.64,"text":"因為它的調整"},{"start":18642.64,"end":18644.64,"text":"它的製成沒有改變"},{"start":18644.64,"end":18646.64,"text":"但是它的原料"},{"start":18646.64,"end":18648.64,"text":"本身的品質不好"},{"start":18648.64,"end":18650.64,"text":"理論上如果你的原料品質不好的時候"},{"start":18650.64,"end":18652.64,"text":"那你的精煉過程"},{"start":18652.64,"end":18654.64,"text":"就要更再調高"},{"start":18654.64,"end":18656.64,"text":"所以你覺得是原料的問題喔"},{"start":18656.64,"end":18658.64,"text":"本期就想要請問一下"},{"start":18658.64,"end":18660.64,"text":"那原料出了問題"},{"start":18660.64,"end":18662.64,"text":"那這批原料"},{"start":18663.14,"end":18665.14,"text":"你們有去追蹤嗎"},{"start":18665.14,"end":18667.14,"text":"到底這批原料是只有拿來做油"},{"start":18667.14,"end":18669.14,"text":"還是也有拿去做別的食品"},{"start":18669.14,"end":18671.14,"text":"比如說豆漿"},{"start":18671.14,"end":18673.14,"text":"或是大豆相關的食品 有沒有"},{"start":18673.14,"end":18675.14,"text":"這批原料你有沒有去追"},{"start":18675.1,"end":18677.1,"text":"因為這一批是他進口來的"},{"start":18677.1,"end":18679.1,"text":"他自己進口來的這一批"},{"start":18679.1,"end":18681.1,"text":"然後進到他的廠裡面"},{"start":18681.1,"end":18683.1,"text":"因為他還要做其他的處理"},{"start":18683.1,"end":18685.1,"text":"沒關係 部長你又回答我你有沒有掌握"},{"start":18685.1,"end":18687.1,"text":"因為這一批是不是都"},{"start":18687.1,"end":18689.1,"text":"已經確定都是做成油 還是說他有可能"},{"start":18689.1,"end":18691.1,"text":"留在市面上面"},{"start":18691.1,"end":18693.1,"text":"有其他的廠商也買了這一批"},{"start":18693.1,"end":18695.1,"text":"有問題的劣質品 他拿去做了別的東西"},{"start":18695.1,"end":18697.1,"text":"有沒有這件事情 你有沒有追蹤"},{"start":18697.1,"end":18699.1,"text":"這個是要數的 我有去追蹤"},{"start":18699.1,"end":18701.1,"text":"從海關進來的這一批"},{"start":18701.1,"end":18703.1,"text":"那追蹤的狀況怎麼樣 就是在這個廠"},{"start":18703.1,"end":18705.1,"text":"沒有到中聯油紙廠"},{"start":18705.1,"end":18707.1,"text":"他這批原料沒有到其他地方"},{"start":18708.06,"end":18710.06,"text":"你可以保證嗎"},{"start":18736.31,"end":18738.31,"text":"都是自由的油廠 但是其他的嘛"},{"start":18738.31,"end":18740.31,"text":"都是自由的 都是自由的"},{"start":18740.31,"end":18742.31,"text":"所以有到其他的油廠"},{"start":18742.31,"end":18744.31,"text":"那你全部都有追到其他的油廠 有沒有問題"},{"start":18744.49,"end":18746.49,"text":"你有百分之百掌握嗎"},{"start":18747.18,"end":18749.18,"text":"你可以在這裡拍胸部跟國人保證嗎"},{"start":18749.18,"end":18751.18,"text":"這邊我們有進一步的去針對"},{"start":18751.18,"end":18753.18,"text":"其他現在的油品的狀況"},{"start":18753.18,"end":18755.18,"text":"都進一步的去分析"},{"start":18755.18,"end":18757.18,"text":"跟委員說明就是因為"},{"start":18757.18,"end":18759.18,"text":"其他 每一個這個"},{"start":18759.18,"end":18761.18,"text":"油廠他的製程還是不同"},{"start":18761.18,"end":18763.18,"text":"我舉例而言"},{"start":18763.18,"end":18765.18,"text":"以這個中聯呢"},{"start":18765.18,"end":18767.18,"text":"他是用白土 那麼其他的廠"},{"start":18767.18,"end":18769.18,"text":"他會有加活性碳或什麼"},{"start":18769.18,"end":18771.18,"text":"那對其他的這個"},{"start":18771.18,"end":18773.18,"text":"煉油廠我們也都去抽驗"},{"start":18773.18,"end":18775.18,"text":"抽驗是符合標準"},{"start":18775.18,"end":18777.18,"text":"那基於製程 每個人的製程當然不同"},{"start":18777.18,"end":18779.18,"text":"你現在也不可能一一把每一家廠商的"},{"start":18779.18,"end":18781.18,"text":"製程講得很清楚"},{"start":18781.18,"end":18783.18,"text":"我現在想要幫老百姓問的"},{"start":18783.18,"end":18785.18,"text":"就是你有沒有完全掌握了"},{"start":18785.18,"end":18787.18,"text":"這一批有問題的原料"},{"start":18787.18,"end":18789.18,"text":"然後他沒有跑到"},{"start":18789.18,"end":18791.18,"text":"別的食品加工裡"},{"start":18791.18,"end":18793.18,"text":"你確保他真的都只是到"},{"start":18793.18,"end":18795.18,"text":"自由裡面 然後你現在追查到的"},{"start":18795.18,"end":18797.18,"text":"你去檢驗到的"},{"start":18797.18,"end":18799.18,"text":"都是這些這個範疇內的"},{"start":18799.18,"end":18801.18,"text":"沒有多的跑到其他市面上"},{"start":18801.18,"end":18803.18,"text":"其他東西 你可以保證這件事情嗎"},{"start":18803.18,"end":18805.18,"text":"他的煉油廠我們也都去抽驗了"},{"start":18805.18,"end":18807.18,"text":"所以其他的是"},{"start":18807.18,"end":18809.18,"text":"那量呢 你有去核對勾稽這個量嗎"},{"start":18809.18,"end":18811.18,"text":"譬如說 進來假設"},{"start":18811.18,"end":18813.18,"text":"一萬噸好了"},{"start":18813.18,"end":18815.18,"text":"或是三萬噸 十萬噸好了"},{"start":18815.18,"end":18817.18,"text":"你十萬噸你確定他都到"},{"start":18817.18,"end":18819.18,"text":"各個廠 然後各個廠 譬如說"},{"start":18819.18,"end":18821.18,"text":"五個廠 四個廠 二點五萬噸"},{"start":18821.18,"end":18823.18,"text":"二點五萬噸 二點五萬噸 然後你確保說"},{"start":18823.18,"end":18825.18,"text":"他都是到這裡 而沒有人"},{"start":18825.18,"end":18827.18,"text":"拿去 我舉例 拿去做"},{"start":18827.18,"end":18829.18,"text":"豆漿 豆皮 豆腐"},{"start":18829.18,"end":18831.18,"text":"是不是這樣子 我只是想要幫"},{"start":18831.18,"end":18833.18,"text":"百姓 跟你確認一下"},{"start":18833.18,"end":18835.18,"text":"因為這個不是絕對的因果"},{"start":18835.18,"end":18837.18,"text":"就是原料的品質"},{"start":18837.18,"end":18839.18,"text":"不佳"},{"start":18839.18,"end":18841.18,"text":"那麼要搭配後面的製程"},{"start":18841.18,"end":18843.18,"text":"所以有的製程是correct"},{"start":18843.18,"end":18845.18,"text":"是ok的 他還是可以做出安全"},{"start":18845.18,"end":18847.18,"text":"不是說 他並不是一個"},{"start":18847.18,"end":18849.18,"text":"壞掉的 壞掉的"},{"start":18849.18,"end":18851.18,"text":"或者是腐爛的"},{"start":18851.18,"end":18853.18,"text":"所以你這批 本來你剛剛說最重要的是原料本身"},{"start":18853.18,"end":18855.18,"text":"就有比較劣質了"},{"start":18855.18,"end":18857.18,"text":"然後再搭配到他製程"},{"start":18857.18,"end":18859.18,"text":"處理的過程當中 他可能烘焙過度"},{"start":18859.18,"end":18861.18,"text":"部長其實你這樣邏輯是有點打架的"},{"start":18861.18,"end":18863.18,"text":"因為你剛剛前面已經先說了"},{"start":18863.18,"end":18865.18,"text":"你說大部分主要原因是來自於"},{"start":18865.18,"end":18867.18,"text":"這個原料有問題"},{"start":18867.18,"end":18869.18,"text":"但是他有其他的廠"},{"start":18869.18,"end":18871.18,"text":"可能製程做得可能比較好"},{"start":18871.18,"end":18873.18,"text":"所以他沒有驗出問題"},{"start":18873.18,"end":18875.18,"text":"好 但是你跟我的問題脫節了"},{"start":18875.18,"end":18877.18,"text":"我的問題是你有沒有掌握 舉例"},{"start":18877.18,"end":18879.18,"text":"他進來十萬噸 他是不是真的是"},{"start":18879.18,"end":18881.18,"text":"確保你就只進了他幾家"},{"start":18881.18,"end":18883.18,"text":"因為他這個是有相關聯性"},{"start":18883.18,"end":18885.18,"text":"就是說他的品質在不好的時候"},{"start":18885.18,"end":18887.18,"text":"那你的製程"},{"start":18887.18,"end":18889.18,"text":"是可以把他降低的"},{"start":18889.18,"end":18891.18,"text":"所以他是搭配的"},{"start":18891.18,"end":18893.18,"text":"如果你沒有辦法回答我這個問題的話"},{"start":18893.18,"end":18895.18,"text":"我就代表你根本沒有追蹤清楚"},{"start":18895.18,"end":18897.18,"text":"因為我的意思就是說 如果今天這個豆進來了"},{"start":18897.18,"end":18899.18,"text":"如果有其他人覺得說"},{"start":18899.18,"end":18901.18,"text":"這批豆好像價格比較好"},{"start":18901.18,"end":18903.18,"text":"那我就買了他來做"},{"start":18903.18,"end":18905.18,"text":"市面上可能有五六家"},{"start":18905.18,"end":18907.18,"text":"十家的豆漿"},{"start":18907.18,"end":18909.18,"text":"假設有十家豆漿"},{"start":18909.18,"end":18911.18,"text":"十家豆漿裡面有八家"},{"start":18911.18,"end":18913.18,"text":"製程比較好"},{"start":18913.18,"end":18915.18,"text":"那裡有兩家 製程比較不好 那是不是他也是有可能出問題"},{"start":18915.18,"end":18917.18,"text":"所以我只是要幫老百姓問清楚"},{"start":18917.18,"end":18919.18,"text":"你有沒有掌握好"},{"start":18919.18,"end":18921.18,"text":"他源頭進來的這一些所有"},{"start":18921.18,"end":18923.18,"text":"有問題的批號的原料"},{"start":18923.18,"end":18925.18,"text":"他到底去了哪裡"},{"start":18925.18,"end":18927.18,"text":"然後是不是都確保他只有去煉油呢"},{"start":18927.18,"end":18929.18,"text":"都是在煉油啦 因為他是"},{"start":18929.18,"end":18931.18,"text":"你確保嗎 你確定嗎"},{"start":18931.18,"end":18933.18,"text":"那你可不可以把你們這個追查的"},{"start":18933.18,"end":18935.18,"text":"相關的數據跟報告給本席辦公室"},{"start":18935.18,"end":18937.18,"text":"好 因為我想要幫老百姓確認這件事情"},{"start":18937.18,"end":18939.18,"text":"就幫委員補充他這個六個批號的傳奇的"},{"start":18939.18,"end":18941.18,"text":"通通都是進入中聯"},{"start":18941.18,"end":18943.18,"text":"這個是很清楚的"},{"start":18943.18,"end":18945.18,"text":"一定跟委員做的保證"},{"start":18945.18,"end":18947.18,"text":"我們確定他都進來"},{"start":18947.18,"end":18949.18,"text":"這進來因為巴西的豆子裡面"},{"start":18949.18,"end":18951.18,"text":"完全都是在煉油的"},{"start":18951.18,"end":18953.18,"text":"這也是確定的"},{"start":18953.18,"end":18955.18,"text":"你確保他沒有跑到別的"},{"start":18955.18,"end":18957.18,"text":"其他的產品 好"},{"start":18957.18,"end":18959.18,"text":"因為我想要講的事情就是"},{"start":18959.18,"end":18961.18,"text":"這件事情到現在我也是覺得到現在"},{"start":18961.18,"end":18963.18,"text":"我這樣好好地問"},{"start":18963.36,"end":18965.36,"text":"你才可以跟我保證"},{"start":18965.36,"end":18967.36,"text":"所以我覺得從食藥署從6月30號"},{"start":18967.36,"end":18969.36,"text":"接到通報到7月20號才說"},{"start":18969.36,"end":18971.36,"text":"要委託食品工業"},{"start":18971.36,"end":18973.36,"text":"發展研究所成立"},{"start":18973.36,"end":18975.36,"text":"獨立調查小組"},{"start":18975.36,"end":18977.36,"text":"其實到現在已經整整24天了"},{"start":18977.36,"end":18979.36,"text":"所以我剛剛一直要問"},{"start":18979.36,"end":18981.36,"text":"源頭到底在哪裡 到底有沒有確定"},{"start":18981.36,"end":18983.36,"text":"查出來了 你的動作為什麼可以這麼慢"},{"start":18983.36,"end":18985.36,"text":"然後因為你們今天"},{"start":18985.36,"end":18987.36,"text":"19批你說要重新上架"},{"start":18988.89,"end":18990.89,"text":"在沒有完全釐清情況之下"},{"start":18990.89,"end":18992.89,"text":"你又重新上架 到底"},{"start":18992.89,"end":18994.89,"text":"有沒有辦法讓人民安心"},{"start":18994.89,"end":18996.89,"text":"所以我想要問的民眾也很關心"},{"start":18996.89,"end":18998.89,"text":"那現在上架了嗎"},{"start":18998.89,"end":19000.89,"text":"現在這19批都是我們"},{"start":19000.89,"end":19002.89,"text":"逐批檢驗"},{"start":19002.89,"end":19004.89,"text":"而且這個樣本"},{"start":19004.89,"end":19006.89,"text":"那麼我們只是先"},{"start":19006.89,"end":19008.89,"text":"公布說他們可以"},{"start":19008.89,"end":19010.89,"text":"因為之前是公布預防性"},{"start":19010.89,"end":19012.89,"text":"下架"},{"start":19012.89,"end":19014.89,"text":"現在因為已經合格了"},{"start":19014.89,"end":19016.89,"text":"所以他可以重新上架"},{"start":19016.89,"end":19018.89,"text":"上架的速度就是由廠商自己決定"},{"start":19018.89,"end":19020.89,"text":"那你有去掌握他上架的狀況"},{"start":19020.89,"end":19022.89,"text":"或者是你重新上架"},{"start":19022.89,"end":19024.89,"text":"會不會讓百姓知道說"},{"start":19024.89,"end":19026.89,"text":"這個是JP是重新上架的"},{"start":19026.89,"end":19028.89,"text":"讓大家知道 可以標示的清楚"},{"start":19028.89,"end":19030.89,"text":"重新上架的就是安全的"},{"start":19030.89,"end":19032.89,"text":"那我們現在跟衛生局協調的"},{"start":19032.89,"end":19034.89,"text":"當然就是去確保"},{"start":19034.89,"end":19036.89,"text":"都是上架的都是"},{"start":19036.89,"end":19038.89,"text":"我們通過我們公布的"},{"start":19038.89,"end":19040.89,"text":"這一些就可以了"},{"start":19040.89,"end":19042.89,"text":"部長這件事情很簡單 民眾要的是一個知情權"},{"start":19042.89,"end":19044.89,"text":"他預防性下架了"},{"start":19044.89,"end":19046.89,"text":"當然你覺得上架了沒問題"},{"start":19046.89,"end":19048.89,"text":"但是民眾要的是"},{"start":19048.89,"end":19050.89,"text":"他買的時候他會不會知道這是19批"},{"start":19050.89,"end":19052.89,"text":"那他自己就可以選擇"},{"start":19052.89,"end":19054.89,"text":"這19批都是安全的"},{"start":19054.89,"end":19056.89,"text":"這個我們都驗過 跟委員說明"},{"start":19056.89,"end":19058.89,"text":"那7批不合格的我們品項都公告的很清楚"},{"start":19058.89,"end":19060.89,"text":"那些都是要下架的"},{"start":19060.89,"end":19062.89,"text":"你還是跟我吉桐壓講"},{"start":19062.89,"end":19064.89,"text":"我在問的事情是民眾如果想要知道"},{"start":19064.89,"end":19066.89,"text":"是這19批"},{"start":19066.89,"end":19068.89,"text":"他有沒有辦法很清楚的辨識"},{"start":19068.89,"end":19070.89,"text":"他有沒有辦法很清楚的辨識說"},{"start":19070.89,"end":19072.89,"text":"這19批重新上架的"},{"start":19072.89,"end":19074.89,"text":"有是重新上架的這些"},{"start":19074.89,"end":19076.89,"text":"那他可以選擇嘛"},{"start":19076.89,"end":19078.89,"text":"但是這個都是檢驗合格了"},{"start":19078.89,"end":19080.89,"text":"所以我問的問題"},{"start":19080.89,"end":19082.89,"text":"那所以你的意思就是說不會有標示"},{"start":19082.89,"end":19084.89,"text":"然後民眾可能也不知道"},{"start":19084.89,"end":19086.89,"text":"所以我們沒有要請民眾好好的去"},{"start":19086.89,"end":19088.89,"text":"自己去調查去查一下來源"},{"start":19088.89,"end":19090.89,"text":"你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":19090.89,"end":19092.89,"text":"就是我們只要是合格的上架的合格"},{"start":19092.89,"end":19094.89,"text":"那都是"},{"start":19094.89,"end":19096.89,"text":"我們不會去公布這個合格批次"},{"start":19096.89,"end":19098.89,"text":"我們公布的是"},{"start":19098.89,"end":19100.89,"text":"不合格的絕對不可以上架"},{"start":19100.89,"end":19102.89,"text":"所以這個衛生局一定會去"},{"start":19102.89,"end":19104.89,"text":"後市場去做抽查"},{"start":19104.89,"end":19106.89,"text":"其實我認為你們的資訊反而"},{"start":19106.89,"end":19108.89,"text":"應該要這個時候做得更透明"},{"start":19108.89,"end":19110.89,"text":"因為你越不透明"},{"start":19110.89,"end":19112.89,"text":"百姓越擔心他才導致說"},{"start":19112.89,"end":19114.89,"text":"他對於這架上的東西越緊張"},{"start":19114.89,"end":19116.89,"text":"其實你如果"},{"start":19116.89,"end":19118.89,"text":"你如果清清楚楚的想辦法把這個標示講清楚"},{"start":19118.89,"end":19120.89,"text":"反正你現在上架就是合格"},{"start":19120.89,"end":19122.89,"text":"但是我也要告訴你說就是這些"},{"start":19122.89,"end":19124.89,"text":"這些曾經預防性下架過"},{"start":19124.89,"end":19126.89,"text":"其實你這個時候你反而"},{"start":19126.89,"end":19128.89,"text":"更應該要這樣做做得更清楚一點"},{"start":19128.89,"end":19130.89,"text":"那你一下子一直強調說"},{"start":19130.89,"end":19132.89,"text":"這個都是安全的沒有用嘛"},{"start":19132.89,"end":19134.89,"text":"因為百姓不一定可以相信嘛"},{"start":19134.89,"end":19136.89,"text":"他不一定會覺得說這個東西對他來講安心啊"},{"start":19136.89,"end":19138.89,"text":"我想要跟你講的是這個"},{"start":19139.45,"end":19141.45,"text":"對因為我們下架的部"},{"start":19141.45,"end":19143.45,"text":"我們之前都已經先下架"},{"start":19143.45,"end":19145.45,"text":"先封城現在是只有這個"},{"start":19145.45,"end":19147.45,"text":"合格的才可以上架"},{"start":19147.45,"end":19149.45,"text":"你重新上架的配套啦希望讓百姓"},{"start":19149.45,"end":19151.45,"text":"更清楚知道"},{"start":19151.45,"end":19153.45,"text":"這部份你們是不是可以"},{"start":19153.21,"end":19155.21,"text":"而且說實在今天我們"},{"start":19155.47,"end":19157.47,"text":"的臨時動議都跨黨派民進黨也踢了"},{"start":19157.47,"end":19159.47,"text":"就是說在沒有查明真相之前"},{"start":19159.47,"end":19161.47,"text":"百姓沒有安心之前"},{"start":19161.47,"end":19163.47,"text":"其實你是不能上架最重要的原因就是"},{"start":19163.47,"end":19165.47,"text":"在這裡嘛就是百姓沒有辦法"},{"start":19165.47,"end":19167.47,"text":"安心嘛所以"},{"start":19167.47,"end":19169.47,"text":"這就是我們擔心的事情"},{"start":19169.47,"end":19171.47,"text":"更離譜的事情是在污染源"},{"start":19171.47,"end":19173.47,"text":"其實完全其實你還是沒有講得"},{"start":19173.47,"end":19175.47,"text":"很清楚說到底釐清了沒"},{"start":19175.47,"end":19177.47,"text":"那問題的批次尚未完全"},{"start":19177.47,"end":19179.47,"text":"掌握的情況之下那最近宜蘭縣"},{"start":19179.47,"end":19181.47,"text":"政府又有發現新的問題的"},{"start":19181.47,"end":19183.47,"text":"批號"},{"start":19182.48,"end":19184.48,"text":"那這個時候這個所謂行政院"},{"start":19184.48,"end":19186.48,"text":"還有辦法行政院長還有辦法把"},{"start":19186.48,"end":19188.48,"text":"這個時間點把責任推到"},{"start":19188.48,"end":19190.48,"text":"地方然後一下子再批評"},{"start":19190.48,"end":19192.48,"text":"說地方稽查不力"},{"start":19192.48,"end":19194.48,"text":"那我們就是想要來檢驗一下"},{"start":19194.48,"end":19196.48,"text":"那好啊那中央政府的食安預算到底"},{"start":19196.48,"end":19198.48,"text":"怎麼花的喔我想要在這裡跟大家"},{"start":19198.48,"end":19200.48,"text":"講喔卓榮泰院長上任後"},{"start":19200.48,"end":19202.48,"text":"核定的第一份公文啊"},{"start":19202.48,"end":19204.48,"text":"就是七十四億"},{"start":19204.48,"end":19206.48,"text":"的食品安全建設計畫"},{"start":19207.44,"end":19209.44,"text":"到一百一十五年這個食藥署"},{"start":19209.44,"end":19211.44,"text":"總稅出約六十七億"},{"start":19211.44,"end":19213.44,"text":"其中又編列八億元的"},{"start":19213.44,"end":19217.44,"text":"辦理食安食品安全的建設"},{"start":19218.11,"end":19220.11,"text":"那這八億元裡面咧"},{"start":19220.11,"end":19222.11,"text":"有七點八八億元"},{"start":19222.11,"end":19224.11,"text":"是"},{"start":19222.88,"end":19224.88,"text":"設備跟投資"},{"start":19224.88,"end":19226.88,"text":"佔了九十八點五趴"},{"start":19226.88,"end":19228.88,"text":"主要用在哪裡主要"},{"start":19228.88,"end":19230.88,"text":"用在食物大樓的外牆"},{"start":19230.88,"end":19232.88,"text":"機電室內裝修"},{"start":19232.88,"end":19234.88,"text":"跟整建工程"},{"start":19234.88,"end":19236.88,"text":"那真正編列在業務費的"},{"start":19236.88,"end":19238.88,"text":"只有一千兩百萬所以我們看到"},{"start":19238.88,"end":19240.88,"text":"這究竟是食品安全建設計畫還是"},{"start":19240.88,"end":19242.88,"text":"食安大樓的裝修計畫"},{"start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移動食安大樓"},{"start":19432.73,"end":19434.73,"text":"可以從2017年蓋到現在"},{"start":19434.73,"end":19436.73,"text":"還沒有完工前前後後要燒掉"},{"start":19436.73,"end":19438.73,"text":"70億 現在檢驗量能增加多少"},{"start":19438.73,"end":19440.73,"text":"是零"},{"start":19440.71,"end":19442.71,"text":"是因為根本還沒有啟用"},{"start":19442.71,"end":19444.71,"text":"那我們這幾年大家看到什麼"},{"start":19444.71,"end":19446.71,"text":"從113年超過28萬公斤的"},{"start":19446.71,"end":19448.71,"text":"蘇丹紅色素的辣椒粉"},{"start":19449.31,"end":19451.31,"text":"然後食藥署的邊境查驗"},{"start":19451.31,"end":19453.31,"text":"一批都沒有攔下來"},{"start":19453.31,"end":19455.31,"text":"最近怎麼報的 也不是食藥署查到的"},{"start":19455.31,"end":19457.31,"text":"是民眾檢舉才報的"},{"start":19457.31,"end":19459.31,"text":"還是所謂的廠商自律找到的"},{"start":19459.31,"end":19461.31,"text":"然後"},{"start":19461.31,"end":19463.31,"text":"食安管理我們以為政府會痛定"},{"start":19463.31,"end":19465.31,"text":"食痛 但是民黨"},{"start":19465.31,"end":19467.31,"text":"最喜歡說的要錢給錢 要人給人"},{"start":19467.31,"end":19469.31,"text":"那大手一筆編78億的"},{"start":19469.31,"end":19471.31,"text":"食安管理預算 好喔"},{"start":19471.31,"end":19473.31,"text":"光是113年食安管理預算"},{"start":19473.31,"end":19475.31,"text":"也編了78億 但是"},{"start":19475.31,"end":19477.31,"text":"我們到底換到了什麼 真的有做到"},{"start":19477.31,"end":19479.31,"text":"大家平安心嗎"},{"start":19478.71,"end":19480.71,"text":"然後換了一套食品雲喔"},{"start":19480.71,"end":19482.71,"text":"審計部"},{"start":19482.71,"end":19484.71,"text":"也說效益沒有辦法充分"},{"start":19484.71,"end":19486.71,"text":"發揮 換到非燈不可"},{"start":19486.71,"end":19488.71,"text":"業者登錄"},{"start":19488.71,"end":19490.71,"text":"該申報的一萬多家納管有落差"},{"start":19490.71,"end":19492.71,"text":"然後換到"},{"start":19492.71,"end":19494.71,"text":"市售食品的後市場稽查"},{"start":19495.2,"end":19497.2,"text":"連年做 但是業者違規"},{"start":19497.2,"end":19499.2,"text":"卻連年降不下來"},{"start":19500.06,"end":19502.06,"text":"三套系統 三個花了錢沒效果"},{"start":19502.06,"end":19504.06,"text":"而且不是今年才被點"},{"start":19504.06,"end":19506.06,"text":"是年年被點 年年沒有改"},{"start":19506.06,"end":19508.06,"text":"所以我在這裡"},{"start":19508.06,"end":19510.06,"text":"要充分表達人民對於"},{"start":19510.06,"end":19512.06,"text":"政府在食安的不滿"},{"start":19512.06,"end":19514.06,"text":"食安也不是預算數字的競賽"},{"start":19514.06,"end":19516.06,"text":"是人民要吃下肚子的東西"},{"start":19516.06,"end":19518.06,"text":"要讓人民安心"},{"start":19518.06,"end":19520.06,"text":"那錢逐年的增加 破口照樣的出"},{"start":19520.06,"end":19522.06,"text":"地方檢驗出來就開始"},{"start":19522.06,"end":19524.06,"text":"怪地方說為什麼要搶快"},{"start":19524.09,"end":19526.09,"text":"我想這個行政院長的態度"},{"start":19526.09,"end":19528.09,"text":"可以看得出來現在執政黨的傲慢"},{"start":19528.09,"end":19530.09,"text":"和無能 謝謝"},{"start":19530.09,"end":19532.09,"text":"跟委員簡單說明一下"},{"start":19532.09,"end":19534.09,"text":"第一個這個食安大樓"},{"start":19534.09,"end":19536.09,"text":"當然還沒有完工 我們預計是明年"},{"start":19536.09,"end":19538.09,"text":"他會完成 那整個檢驗量"},{"start":19538.09,"end":19540.09,"text":"也會擴大 但是在這段"},{"start":19540.09,"end":19542.09,"text":"期間我們的檢驗室"},{"start":19542.09,"end":19544.09,"text":"也是持續在運作 所以這一次有"},{"start":19544.09,"end":19546.09,"text":"這麼多的這個檢體"},{"start":19546.09,"end":19548.09,"text":"很多是我們的目前的"},{"start":19548.09,"end":19550.09,"text":"實驗室在驗的"},{"start":19550.09,"end":19552.09,"text":"另外這個檢驗的部分"},{"start":19552.09,"end":19554.09,"text":"也分邊境 還有各個分區業務組"},{"start":19554.09,"end":19556.09,"text":"所以不是"},{"start":19556.09,"end":19558.09,"text":"剛剛我們看得到 所以要完全呈現"},{"start":19558.09,"end":19560.09,"text":"把這個東西都念出來給大家"},{"start":19560.09,"end":19562.09,"text":"我想這個社會自由公民"},{"start":19562.09,"end":19564.09,"text":"另外那個調查小組其實是"},{"start":19564.09,"end":19566.09,"text":"做最後確認 我們之前就已經進行"},{"start":19566.09,"end":19568.09,"text":"調查了 那昨天這個是"},{"start":19568.09,"end":19570.09,"text":"進場去做最後的確認"},{"start":19570.09,"end":19572.09,"text":"所以到現在讓人家"},{"start":19572.09,"end":19574.09,"text":"很擔心的就是這個最後確認的原因"},{"start":19574.09,"end":19576.09,"text":"更新到底在哪裡"},{"start":19576.09,"end":19578.09,"text":"還沒有辦法完全的確定"},{"start":19578.09,"end":19580.09,"text":"報告的是 我們大概就是"},{"start":19580.09,"end":19582.09,"text":"已經知道的"},{"start":19582.09,"end":19584.09,"text":"當然最後的報告的撰寫"},{"start":19584.09,"end":19586.09,"text":"我們在這個禮拜會完成 不過目前"},{"start":19586.09,"end":19588.09,"text":"我們了解的大概就是"},{"start":19588.09,"end":19590.09,"text":"他的原料的品質"},{"start":19590.09,"end":19592.09,"text":"不佳加上製程上"},{"start":19592.09,"end":19594.09,"text":"沒有進行調整"},{"start":19594.09,"end":19596.09,"text":"我想縱然再多的這種解釋"},{"start":19596.09,"end":19598.09,"text":"食品安全就是要讓"},{"start":19598.09,"end":19600.09,"text":"人民安心 這一段時間的處理"},{"start":19600.09,"end":19602.09,"text":"下來 我沒有看到人民更加安心"},{"start":19602.09,"end":19604.09,"text":"只看到人民更加憤怒 謝謝"},{"start":19604.09,"end":19606.09,"text":"我們一定確保這個食安"},{"start":19606.09,"end":19608.09,"text":"所以這個在上架 目前我們重新"},{"start":19608.09,"end":19610.09,"text":"上架的都是我們檢驗過的"},{"start":19610.09,"end":19612.09,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":19613.03,"end":19615.03,"text":"接下來請黃秀芳委員諮詢"},{"start":19621.94,"end":19623.94,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":19623.94,"end":19625.94,"text":"有請石崇良部長"},{"start":19627.85,"end":19629.85,"text":"部長辛苦了"},{"start":19629.85,"end":19631.85,"text":"部長 那個很多委員都關心"},{"start":19631.85,"end":19633.85,"text":"就是說這一次"},{"start":19633.85,"end":19635.85,"text":"這個有發現"},{"start":19635.85,"end":19637.85,"text":"有這個本評比的這個"},{"start":19637.85,"end":19639.85,"text":"有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":19639.85,"end":19641.85,"text":"那我在 我記得"},{"start":19641.85,"end":19643.85,"text":"我在上禮拜我有問過"},{"start":19643.85,"end":19645.85,"text":"到底是原料的問題還是"},{"start":19645.85,"end":19647.85,"text":"製程的問題嗎 那你們現在"},{"start":19647.85,"end":19649.85,"text":"應該可以 剛剛部長"},{"start":19649.85,"end":19651.85,"text":"這樣有回答就是說可能"},{"start":19651.85,"end":19653.85,"text":"就是原料有問題 那再加上"},{"start":19653.85,"end":19655.85,"text":"製程的關係才會造成"},{"start":19655.85,"end":19657.85,"text":"有紙有這個"},{"start":19657.85,"end":19659.85,"text":"有本評比的這個狀況"},{"start":19659.85,"end":19661.85,"text":"是這樣子嗎 對不對"},{"start":19661.85,"end":19663.85,"text":"就是說它這一批的"},{"start":19663.85,"end":19665.85,"text":"這個原料本身就比較差"},{"start":19665.85,"end":19667.85,"text":"它的品質就是比較差的"},{"start":19667.85,"end":19669.85,"text":"然後在製程當中呢"},{"start":19669.85,"end":19671.85,"text":"它又沒有確保每一個都"},{"start":19671.85,"end":19673.85,"text":"按照原本的SOP去執行"},{"start":19673.85,"end":19675.85,"text":"所以造成"},{"start":19675.85,"end":19677.85,"text":"最後的這個本評比"},{"start":19679.55,"end":19681.55,"text":"超高 而且它又沒有在"},{"start":19681.55,"end":19683.55,"text":"每一個管制點上去抽驗"},{"start":19683.55,"end":19685.55,"text":"所以是只有中聯"},{"start":19685.55,"end":19687.55,"text":"是這個狀況嗎"},{"start":19687.55,"end":19689.55,"text":"那其他的這個油紙廠"},{"start":19689.55,"end":19691.55,"text":"會不會也因為製程的"},{"start":19691.55,"end":19693.55,"text":"更改 我不知道"},{"start":19693.55,"end":19695.55,"text":"就是說你們應該也要"},{"start":19695.55,"end":19697.55,"text":"再針對其他的這個廠"},{"start":19697.55,"end":19699.55,"text":"不只是中聯 那其他的"},{"start":19699.55,"end":19701.55,"text":"這個油紙廠 他們有沒有可能"},{"start":19701.55,"end":19703.55,"text":"就是說也"},{"start":19703.55,"end":19705.55,"text":"這個製程有一些改變"},{"start":19705.55,"end":19707.55,"text":"那未來會產出了"},{"start":19707.55,"end":19709.55,"text":"這些油紙也會有一些問題"},{"start":19709.55,"end":19711.55,"text":"好 也跟委員說明"},{"start":19711.55,"end":19713.55,"text":"這一次這個事件發生之後"},{"start":19713.55,"end":19715.55,"text":"我們食藥署也去其他的廠"},{"start":19715.55,"end":19717.55,"text":"也一起看了 包含這個"},{"start":19717.55,"end":19719.55,"text":"其他的這個大同義"},{"start":19719.55,"end":19721.55,"text":"台糖的廠也都去看"},{"start":19721.55,"end":19723.55,"text":"然後這個製程"},{"start":19723.55,"end":19725.55,"text":"也都有做一些確認"},{"start":19725.55,"end":19727.55,"text":"那同時也要求它"},{"start":19727.55,"end":19729.55,"text":"逐批檢驗才能出貨"},{"start":19729.55,"end":19731.55,"text":"所以立刻都已經做了"},{"start":19731.55,"end":19733.55,"text":"這些調整 那麼至於"},{"start":19733.55,"end":19735.55,"text":"未來我們在修法裡面也會要求"},{"start":19735.55,"end":19737.55,"text":"正式的入法"},{"start":19737.55,"end":19739.55,"text":"原料 這種高風險的"},{"start":19739.55,"end":19741.55,"text":"這個原料"},{"start":19741.55,"end":19743.55,"text":"那麼要逐批檢驗原料"},{"start":19743.55,"end":19745.55,"text":"然後再加上出貨的時候"},{"start":19745.55,"end":19747.55,"text":"也要逐批檢驗 大廠的部分"},{"start":19747.55,"end":19749.55,"text":"是這樣 那這個資訊呢"},{"start":19749.55,"end":19751.55,"text":"資訊要怎麼讓你們知道"},{"start":19751.55,"end":19753.55,"text":"或者是要讓什麼樣的單位知道"},{"start":19753.55,"end":19755.55,"text":"就是說如果萬一它又隱匿的話"},{"start":19755.55,"end":19757.55,"text":"對於這個檢驗的結果的話"},{"start":19757.55,"end":19759.55,"text":"它是要公開"},{"start":19759.55,"end":19761.55,"text":"那第二個呢 我們會"},{"start":19761.55,"end":19763.55,"text":"把這一次會入法 檢驗"},{"start":19763.55,"end":19765.55,"text":"本身也具有強制通報的"},{"start":19765.55,"end":19767.55,"text":"義務 責任要下去"},{"start":19767.55,"end":19769.55,"text":"就是它不是交給這個"},{"start":19769.55,"end":19771.55,"text":"業者 而是要把這個"},{"start":19771.55,"end":19773.55,"text":"檢驗報告 如果一發生有異常"},{"start":19773.55,"end":19775.55,"text":"就要通報 傳上我們的"},{"start":19775.55,"end":19777.55,"text":"系統 讓主管機關知曉"},{"start":19777.55,"end":19779.55,"text":"好 那你們原本有三道"},{"start":19779.55,"end":19781.55,"text":"的這個檢驗的把關的程序"},{"start":19781.55,"end":19783.55,"text":"第一個是自主檢驗"},{"start":19783.55,"end":19785.55,"text":"那剛剛部長有提到就是說"},{"start":19785.55,"end":19787.55,"text":"自主檢驗如果有問題的話"},{"start":19787.55,"end":19789.55,"text":"也是要公開"},{"start":19789.55,"end":19791.55,"text":"就是也要公開 然後通報"},{"start":19791.55,"end":19793.55,"text":"在第一道的部分"},{"start":19793.55,"end":19795.55,"text":"自主檢驗的部分 我們的"},{"start":19795.55,"end":19797.55,"text":"要求會是這個自主檢驗的"},{"start":19797.55,"end":19799.55,"text":"實驗室也要經過主管機關"},{"start":19799.55,"end":19801.55,"text":"的認證 確保它的"},{"start":19801.55,"end":19803.55,"text":"檢驗品質 那第二個呢"},{"start":19803.55,"end":19805.55,"text":"它一旦發現檢驗的過程"},{"start":19805.55,"end":19807.55,"text":"有異常的 不符標準的"},{"start":19807.55,"end":19809.55,"text":"那麼它也要及時的"},{"start":19809.55,"end":19811.55,"text":"通報的義務 這個都把它寫到"},{"start":19811.55,"end":19813.55,"text":"修法裡面 這是第一道"},{"start":19813.55,"end":19815.55,"text":"那第二個部分就是說 委託外部"},{"start":19815.55,"end":19817.55,"text":"檢驗的部分 如果有問題的話"},{"start":19817.55,"end":19819.55,"text":"也是要公開"},{"start":19819.55,"end":19821.55,"text":"然後也是要通報"},{"start":19821.55,"end":19823.55,"text":"對 要通報"},{"start":19823.55,"end":19825.55,"text":"再來就是說後市場的抽驗"},{"start":19825.55,"end":19827.55,"text":"我想請教就是說"},{"start":19827.55,"end":19829.55,"text":"其實我問了好幾個縣市"},{"start":19829.55,"end":19831.55,"text":"就是說後市場的檢驗"},{"start":19831.55,"end":19833.55,"text":"或者是油紙的"},{"start":19833.55,"end":19835.55,"text":"油紙廠的茶廠 其實地方"},{"start":19835.55,"end":19837.55,"text":"政府也要負很大的責任"},{"start":19837.55,"end":19839.55,"text":"那既然有的"},{"start":19839.55,"end":19841.55,"text":"有的縣市政府它可能"},{"start":19841.55,"end":19843.55,"text":"這個幾年當中可以驗十幾次"},{"start":19843.55,"end":19845.55,"text":"那有的縣市政府可能"},{"start":19845.55,"end":19847.55,"text":"這個四五年當中"},{"start":19847.55,"end":19849.55,"text":"可能連一次都沒有"},{"start":19849.55,"end":19851.55,"text":"像類似的狀況"},{"start":19851.55,"end":19853.55,"text":"那未來有沒有可能就是說"},{"start":19853.55,"end":19855.55,"text":"中央跟地方要怎麼去分工"},{"start":19855.55,"end":19857.55,"text":"就是說茶廠的部分"},{"start":19857.55,"end":19859.55,"text":"到底是要歸屬中央"},{"start":19859.55,"end":19861.55,"text":"或者是歸屬地方"},{"start":19861.55,"end":19863.55,"text":"那如果是歸屬地方的話"},{"start":19863.55,"end":19865.55,"text":"你們會要求就是說幾年內"},{"start":19865.55,"end":19867.55,"text":"要茶廠幾次"},{"start":19867.55,"end":19869.55,"text":"這個未來會不會有做這樣的一個要求"},{"start":19869.55,"end":19871.55,"text":"好 跟委員說明"},{"start":19871.55,"end":19873.55,"text":"第三道的防線就是在主管機關的"},{"start":19873.55,"end":19875.55,"text":"稽查"},{"start":19875.55,"end":19877.55,"text":"其實是分兩個"},{"start":19877.55,"end":19879.55,"text":"一個是後市場的抽驗"},{"start":19879.55,"end":19881.55,"text":"一個是茶廠"},{"start":19881.55,"end":19883.55,"text":"所以還是有茶廠就是像"},{"start":19883.55,"end":19885.55,"text":"委員所秀出的四十一條"},{"start":19885.55,"end":19887.55,"text":"其實第一款就是要進入"},{"start":19887.55,"end":19889.55,"text":"廠區去做茶廠"},{"start":19889.55,"end":19891.55,"text":"集合檢驗抽驗"},{"start":19891.55,"end":19893.55,"text":"所以這個是法裡面已經有訂了"},{"start":19893.55,"end":19895.55,"text":"那麼只是說我們過去的做法"},{"start":19895.55,"end":19897.55,"text":"是分兩個 一個是地方"},{"start":19897.55,"end":19899.55,"text":"自己依照它的產業屬性"},{"start":19899.55,"end":19901.55,"text":"去做茶廠跟抽驗"},{"start":19901.55,"end":19903.55,"text":"去做茶廠跟抽驗"},{"start":19903.55,"end":19905.55,"text":"所以現場是對全國性的"},{"start":19905.55,"end":19907.55,"text":"訂一個專案稽查的方案"},{"start":19907.55,"end":19909.55,"text":"每年會請各縣市"},{"start":19909.55,"end":19911.55,"text":"衛生局去配合"},{"start":19911.55,"end":19913.55,"text":"那未來的話"},{"start":19913.55,"end":19915.55,"text":"有專案的話請縣市政府配合"},{"start":19915.55,"end":19917.55,"text":"那如果沒有專案的話"},{"start":19917.55,"end":19919.55,"text":"縣市政府他們就自己去查場"},{"start":19919.55,"end":19921.55,"text":"自己去執行"},{"start":19921.55,"end":19923.55,"text":"因為有的地方的產業屬性是不一樣"},{"start":19923.55,"end":19925.55,"text":"他們有自己"},{"start":19925.55,"end":19927.55,"text":"或者是你們有規定就是說"},{"start":19927.55,"end":19929.55,"text":"要茶廠幾次的這樣的一個規定嗎"},{"start":19929.55,"end":19931.55,"text":"當然沒有特別的規定"},{"start":19931.55,"end":19933.55,"text":"但是產業屬性是不一樣"},{"start":19933.55,"end":19935.55,"text":"那像比如說像這個掌握"},{"start":19935.55,"end":19937.55,"text":"全國的這些油品的上游"},{"start":19937.55,"end":19939.55,"text":"就是這幾家而已"},{"start":19939.55,"end":19941.55,"text":"所以這幾家的這個縣市主管機關"},{"start":19941.55,"end":19943.55,"text":"就應該把它列入到"},{"start":19943.55,"end":19945.55,"text":"它的比較高風險的"},{"start":19945.55,"end":19947.55,"text":"以前還沒發生這件事情"},{"start":19947.55,"end":19949.55,"text":"以前"},{"start":19949.55,"end":19951.55,"text":"你們有去統計就是說"},{"start":19951.55,"end":19953.55,"text":"各縣市政府有針對"},{"start":19953.55,"end":19955.55,"text":"這樣子的那個茶廠到底是幾次"},{"start":19955.55,"end":19957.55,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":19957.55,"end":19959.55,"text":"中央跟地方"},{"start":19959.55,"end":19961.55,"text":"應該要一起合作"},{"start":19961.55,"end":19963.55,"text":"而不是事情發生之後"},{"start":19963.55,"end":19965.55,"text":"可能地方政府會覺得說"},{"start":19965.55,"end":19967.55,"text":"這個是中央的事情"},{"start":19967.55,"end":19969.55,"text":"那中央會覺得說那你就是需要去查場"},{"start":19969.55,"end":19971.55,"text":"那像這樣子的話"},{"start":19971.55,"end":19973.55,"text":"未來如果我們在修法的話"},{"start":19973.55,"end":19975.55,"text":"有沒有可能"},{"start":19975.55,"end":19977.55,"text":"這樣的問題是要歸屬地方"},{"start":19977.55,"end":19979.55,"text":"或中央或者是中央跟地方"},{"start":19979.55,"end":19981.55,"text":"是要一起合作的"},{"start":19981.55,"end":19983.55,"text":"這個我們在修法裡面會"},{"start":19983.55,"end":19985.55,"text":"修訂這個41條"},{"start":19985.55,"end":19987.55,"text":"讓它更清楚的分工"},{"start":19987.55,"end":19989.55,"text":"所以這個中央的部分"},{"start":19989.55,"end":19991.55,"text":"是針對重大"},{"start":19991.55,"end":19993.55,"text":"或者是突發性的事件"},{"start":19993.55,"end":19995.55,"text":"那麼或者是有"},{"start":19995.55,"end":19997.55,"text":"高度的疑慮的事件"},{"start":19997.55,"end":19999.55,"text":"那麼由中央來組"},{"start":19999.55,"end":20001.55,"text":"那麼其餘的就回歸到"},{"start":20001.55,"end":20003.55,"text":"這個地方的日常管理"},{"start":20003.55,"end":20005.55,"text":"那個常規的管理"},{"start":20005.55,"end":20007.55,"text":"那如果地方"},{"start":20007.55,"end":20009.55,"text":"它也像有的縣市政府"},{"start":20009.55,"end":20011.55,"text":"它的好幾年也都連一次都沒有"},{"start":20011.55,"end":20013.55,"text":"那類似這樣的一個狀況的話"},{"start":20013.55,"end":20015.55,"text":"那你們要怎麼辦"},{"start":20015.55,"end":20017.55,"text":"他們這個查場的這些記錄"},{"start":20017.55,"end":20019.55,"text":"什麼都會"},{"start":20019.55,"end":20021.55,"text":"我們會收集 那現在你們有這樣的記錄嗎"},{"start":20021.55,"end":20023.55,"text":"我們現在是有知道"},{"start":20023.55,"end":20025.55,"text":"各縣市的配合中央專案"},{"start":20025.55,"end":20027.55,"text":"或自行抽驗"},{"start":20027.55,"end":20029.55,"text":"或查場的次數"},{"start":20029.55,"end":20031.55,"text":"這個是我們有統計"},{"start":20031.55,"end":20033.55,"text":"各縣市都有 好那近五年內"},{"start":20033.55,"end":20035.55,"text":"這些有指所在地的"},{"start":20035.55,"end":20037.55,"text":"這個縣市政府他們查場"},{"start":20037.55,"end":20039.55,"text":"總共幾次你們可以"},{"start":20039.55,"end":20041.55,"text":"現在就可以說出來嗎"},{"start":20041.55,"end":20043.55,"text":"可以如果是從111年"},{"start":20043.55,"end":20045.55,"text":"到115年的"},{"start":20045.55,"end":20047.55,"text":"6月底為止的話"},{"start":20047.55,"end":20049.55,"text":"那這個"},{"start":20049.55,"end":20051.55,"text":"有一個全國的統計"},{"start":20051.55,"end":20053.55,"text":"這個是各縣市"},{"start":20053.55,"end":20055.55,"text":"我們有各縣市的統計"},{"start":20055.55,"end":20057.55,"text":"這個詳細的資料我們可以"},{"start":20057.55,"end":20059.55,"text":"再提供給委員"},{"start":20059.55,"end":20061.55,"text":"你會後再提供給委員"},{"start":20061.55,"end":20063.55,"text":"各縣市我們都有"},{"start":20063.55,"end":20065.55,"text":"是 所以我覺得說"},{"start":20065.55,"end":20067.55,"text":"這個食安出現問題"},{"start":20067.55,"end":20069.55,"text":"其實就是中央跟地方"},{"start":20069.55,"end":20071.55,"text":"要一起配合一起合作的"},{"start":20071.55,"end":20073.55,"text":"一起要共同來分擔負擔的"},{"start":20073.55,"end":20075.55,"text":"因為不是地方"},{"start":20075.55,"end":20077.55,"text":"也不是中央"},{"start":20077.55,"end":20079.55,"text":"應該是要通力合作的"},{"start":20079.55,"end":20081.55,"text":"地方在查場或在後市場端"},{"start":20081.55,"end":20083.55,"text":"遇到什麼樣的問題"},{"start":20083.55,"end":20085.55,"text":"需要中央這邊來協助"},{"start":20085.55,"end":20087.55,"text":"我覺得中央應該也會"},{"start":20087.55,"end":20089.55,"text":"很樂意要來協助地方"},{"start":20089.55,"end":20091.55,"text":"來處理這樣的一個事情"},{"start":20091.55,"end":20093.55,"text":"所以其實我在最近有聽到"},{"start":20093.55,"end":20095.55,"text":"有一些地方政府會覺得說"},{"start":20095.55,"end":20097.55,"text":"這個查場或者是"},{"start":20097.55,"end":20099.55,"text":"後市場的抽驗"},{"start":20099.55,"end":20101.55,"text":"都是地方政府"},{"start":20101.55,"end":20103.55,"text":"這個地方政府自己的衛生單位"},{"start":20103.55,"end":20105.55,"text":"就自己這樣講"},{"start":20105.55,"end":20107.55,"text":"所以我覺得說應該也要落實"},{"start":20107.55,"end":20109.55,"text":"就是有的縣市政府沒有落實"},{"start":20109.55,"end":20111.55,"text":"所以應該也是要去落實"},{"start":20111.55,"end":20113.55,"text":"這個查場"},{"start":20113.55,"end":20115.55,"text":"或者是後市場的一個檢驗"},{"start":20115.55,"end":20117.55,"text":"對 完全正確"},{"start":20117.55,"end":20119.55,"text":"就是說只有中央跟地方"},{"start":20119.55,"end":20121.55,"text":"密切的合作"},{"start":20121.55,"end":20123.55,"text":"才能夠真正為食安保關"},{"start":20123.55,"end":20125.55,"text":"對 好"},{"start":20125.55,"end":20127.55,"text":"這個部長我再請教"},{"start":20127.55,"end":20129.55,"text":"就是說這個食安辦"},{"start":20129.55,"end":20131.55,"text":"其實我覺得這個事情"},{"start":20131.55,"end":20133.55,"text":"發生到現在"},{"start":20133.55,"end":20135.55,"text":"我都覺得食安辦"},{"start":20135.55,"end":20137.55,"text":"你的角色到底是什麼"},{"start":20140.31,"end":20142.31,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":20142.31,"end":20144.31,"text":"就假設有涉及"},{"start":20144.31,"end":20146.31,"text":"跨部會的情況"},{"start":20146.31,"end":20148.31,"text":"然後還有第二個就是"},{"start":20148.31,"end":20150.31,"text":"像說我們這一次的案子"},{"start":20150.31,"end":20152.31,"text":"我們很快第二天"},{"start":20152.31,"end":20154.31,"text":"就啟動跟法務部的平台"},{"start":20154.31,"end":20156.31,"text":"然後進到裡面去了"},{"start":20156.31,"end":20158.31,"text":"然後後來大概"},{"start":20158.31,"end":20160.31,"text":"院裡面"},{"start":20160.31,"end":20162.31,"text":"開始開會是"},{"start":20162.31,"end":20164.31,"text":"從禮拜五跟下禮拜一"},{"start":20164.31,"end":20166.31,"text":"然後就會開始參與"},{"start":20166.31,"end":20168.31,"text":"那現在已經"},{"start":20168.1,"end":20170.1,"text":"三周"},{"start":20170.72,"end":20172.72,"text":"YOLO"},{"start":20171.98,"end":20173.98,"text":"就是依食安法的法律的授權"},{"start":20173.98,"end":20175.98,"text":"當然是部長"},{"start":20175.98,"end":20177.98,"text":"那假如有涉及到"},{"start":20177.98,"end":20179.98,"text":"跨部會的"},{"start":20179.98,"end":20181.98,"text":"或是要更高層次的"},{"start":20181.98,"end":20183.98,"text":"要去 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":20683.49,"text":"但是我們會看情形再跟他們繼續持續"},{"start":20683.49,"end":20685.49,"text":"保持聯繫好謝謝"},{"start":20685.49,"end":20687.49,"text":"請教育部跟國防部說明"},{"start":20687.49,"end":20689.49,"text":"最近有多少學校跟幼兒園"},{"start":20689.49,"end":20691.49,"text":"其實當中曾經實際提供工餐的部分"},{"start":20693.32,"end":20695.32,"text":"還有市集多少學生"},{"start":20695.32,"end":20697.32,"text":"教職員官兵這些是不是有主意通知到"},{"start":20707.31,"end":20709.31,"text":"委員好國防部針對"},{"start":20709.31,"end":20711.31,"text":"這次的一個使用遊的部分"},{"start":20711.31,"end":20713.31,"text":"那我們在"},{"start":20713.31,"end":20715.31,"text":"第一時間就依據整個"},{"start":20715.31,"end":20717.31,"text":"衛福部公布的資訊"},{"start":20717.31,"end":20719.31,"text":"做了全面的清查"},{"start":20719.31,"end":20721.31,"text":"那我們清查屬於那個不合格遊品"},{"start":20721.31,"end":20723.31,"text":"的部分就一項"},{"start":20723.31,"end":20725.31,"text":"那我們清查是有29個"},{"start":20725.31,"end":20727.31,"text":"這個伙食團有用到"},{"start":20727.31,"end":20729.31,"text":"那其實我們整個"},{"start":20729.31,"end":20731.31,"text":"在回收的部分"},{"start":20731.31,"end":20733.31,"text":"總共我們這個"},{"start":20733.69,"end":20735.69,"text":"福州的健胃箱有總共是"},{"start":20735.69,"end":20737.69,"text":"104桶總共312公升"},{"start":20737.69,"end":20739.69,"text":"其實我們"},{"start":20739.69,"end":20741.69,"text":"在第一時間就已經回收"},{"start":20741.69,"end":20743.69,"text":"然後回收了260公升"},{"start":20743.69,"end":20745.69,"text":"那針對這些"},{"start":20745.69,"end":20747.69,"text":"伙食團有用到這個"},{"start":20747.69,"end":20749.69,"text":"問題遊的部分"},{"start":20749.69,"end":20751.69,"text":"那我們也請單位"},{"start":20751.69,"end":20753.69,"text":"掌握官兵的目前的一個狀況"},{"start":20753.69,"end":20755.69,"text":"那目前官兵是還沒有"},{"start":20755.69,"end":20757.69,"text":"任何的一個健康的一個"},{"start":20757.69,"end":20759.69,"text":"疑慮狀況那我們會持續掌握"},{"start":20759.69,"end":20761.69,"text":"以上報告請學校說明"},{"start":20761.69,"end":20763.69,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":20763.03,"end":20765.03,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":20765.03,"end":20767.03,"text":"那這部這個部分呢"},{"start":20767.03,"end":20771.03,"text":"截至115年7月20號為止"},{"start":20771.03,"end":20773.03,"text":"實際遊品的部分呢"},{"start":20773.03,"end":20775.03,"text":"是有7個縣市"},{"start":20775.03,"end":20777.03,"text":"528校曾經使用"},{"start":20777.03,"end":20779.03,"text":"那針對食藥署"},{"start":20779.03,"end":20781.03,"text":"後面持續更新"},{"start":20781.03,"end":20783.03,"text":"就是那個公布的受影響的"},{"start":20783.03,"end":20785.03,"text":"那個產品那個部分"},{"start":20785.03,"end":20787.03,"text":"目前清查出來疑似"},{"start":20787.03,"end":20789.03,"text":"有涉及20個縣市"},{"start":20789.03,"end":20791.03,"text":"861校"},{"start":20791.03,"end":20795.03,"text":"然後還有334所幼兒園"},{"start":20795.03,"end":20797.03,"text":"這個是第二層有那個"},{"start":20797.03,"end":20799.03,"text":"相關產品的部分"},{"start":20799.03,"end":20801.03,"text":"那目前全部都是請學校"},{"start":20801.03,"end":20803.03,"text":"立即停止使用並且下架"},{"start":20803.03,"end":20805.03,"text":"以上"},{"start":20805.03,"end":20807.03,"text":"那所以我還是請衛福部能夠提出"},{"start":20807.03,"end":20809.03,"text":"一個一夜市的健康風險說明"},{"start":20809.03,"end":20811.03,"text":"比如說讓消費者或者是"},{"start":20811.03,"end":20813.03,"text":"家長或者是曾經使用的人"},{"start":20813.03,"end":20815.03,"text":"可以去看就是說"},{"start":20815.03,"end":20817.03,"text":"他長期使用那個風險的差異"},{"start":20817.03,"end":20819.03,"text":"然後是不是在哪一種"},{"start":20819.03,"end":20821.03,"text":"哪一種情況下他必須做醫療的諮詢"},{"start":20821.03,"end":20823.03,"text":"讓民眾說"},{"start":20823.03,"end":20825.03,"text":"不至於過度恐慌"},{"start":20825.03,"end":20827.03,"text":"好這個我們來做"},{"start":20827.03,"end":20829.03,"text":"讓民眾不用過度恐慌"},{"start":20829.03,"end":20831.03,"text":"那我一直覺得我們從早上"},{"start":20831.03,"end":20833.03,"text":"聽到現在我一直覺得是很像是"},{"start":20833.03,"end":20835.03,"text":"業者的問題是比較大多數"},{"start":20835.03,"end":20837.03,"text":"那是不是在以後在修法的時候"},{"start":20837.03,"end":20839.03,"text":"我們要防範這種"},{"start":20839.03,"end":20841.03,"text":"事後資料的一個呈現"},{"start":20841.03,"end":20843.03,"text":"或者是說他確實這個"},{"start":20843.03,"end":20845.03,"text":"資料不是這個原來的這個"},{"start":20845.03,"end":20847.03,"text":"受檢的這個品項"},{"start":20847.03,"end":20849.03,"text":"那現在要怎麼去預防作假"},{"start":20849.03,"end":20851.03,"text":"這個部分我是覺得以後在修法"},{"start":20851.03,"end":20853.03,"text":"是不是一個重點"},{"start":20852.59,"end":20854.59,"text":"是是所以在這個"},{"start":20854.59,"end":20856.59,"text":"防堵的部分防堵"},{"start":20856.59,"end":20858.59,"text":"他作假的部分我們就透過"},{"start":20858.59,"end":20860.59,"text":"多方攻擊所以包含"},{"start":20860.59,"end":20862.59,"text":"他雖然他的自主"},{"start":20862.59,"end":20864.59,"text":"檢驗的頻率要提高"},{"start":20864.59,"end":20866.59,"text":"那麼另外也透過"},{"start":20866.59,"end":20868.59,"text":"第三方以及實驗室"},{"start":20868.59,"end":20870.59,"text":"那麼通通把他"},{"start":20870.59,"end":20872.59,"text":"這個連結起來讓我們的"},{"start":20872.59,"end":20874.59,"text":"資料的來源能夠多元"},{"start":20874.59,"end":20876.59,"text":"那避免他有作假的行行"},{"start":20876.59,"end":20878.59,"text":"對不只我們還有一個思考的方向就是說"},{"start":20878.59,"end":20880.59,"text":"其實現在我們現在目前"},{"start":20880.59,"end":20882.59,"text":"憑藉最辛苦的是醫院"},{"start":20882.59,"end":20884.59,"text":"那為什麼會這樣因為那是"},{"start":20884.59,"end":20886.59,"text":"人命關天的部分那"},{"start":20886.59,"end":20888.59,"text":"實驗室不是也是這樣嗎而且"},{"start":20888.59,"end":20890.59,"text":"是面對這些我說已經上次"},{"start":20890.59,"end":20892.59,"text":"有講過他們是屬於非常"},{"start":20892.59,"end":20894.59,"text":"大的利益的一個產業"},{"start":20894.59,"end":20896.59,"text":"那你要怎麼去切入他們"},{"start":20896.59,"end":20898.59,"text":"的那個所謂的檢驗"},{"start":20898.59,"end":20900.59,"text":"或者是說你要防堵他們作假這個部分"},{"start":20900.59,"end":20902.59,"text":"我是覺得你要更大的一個power"},{"start":20902.59,"end":20904.59,"text":"來執行這樣的事情所以"},{"start":20904.59,"end":20906.59,"text":"如果說我們面對醫院是這麼嚴格"},{"start":20906.59,"end":20908.59,"text":"的在憑藉我那我太是因為"},{"start":20908.59,"end":20910.59,"text":"是關於"},{"start":20910.16,"end":20912.16,"text":"人命嘛食品"},{"start":20912.16,"end":20914.16,"text":"的用油的部分我在想我們每天"},{"start":20914.16,"end":20916.16,"text":"都在吃油我覺得這個"},{"start":20916.16,"end":20918.16,"text":"這個層級應該要拉高到跟"},{"start":20918.16,"end":20920.16,"text":"教學醫院這樣這個層級去"},{"start":20920.16,"end":20922.16,"text":"憑藉他們不然"},{"start":20922.16,"end":20924.16,"text":"一而再再而三發生還是會出現"},{"start":20924.16,"end":20926.16,"text":"漏洞就是因為我們沒有"},{"start":20926.16,"end":20928.16,"text":"辦法獨自去面對這麼"},{"start":20928.16,"end":20930.16,"text":"大的一個利益團體所以需要"},{"start":20930.16,"end":20932.16,"text":"衛福部的力量需要政府的力量"},{"start":20932.16,"end":20934.16,"text":"去做監督好除了這些"},{"start":20934.16,"end":20936.16,"text":"這個剛剛講到的這些"},{"start":20936.16,"end":20938.16,"text":"報告的稽查之外"},{"start":20938.16,"end":20940.16,"text":"那當然實地的查場"},{"start":20940.16,"end":20942.16,"text":"就跟委員講的評鑑"},{"start":20942.16,"end":20944.16,"text":"實地評鑑實際的查場"},{"start":20944.16,"end":20946.16,"text":"這個也應該要提高這個"},{"start":20946.16,"end":20948.16,"text":"頻率不是說幾年才"},{"start":20948.16,"end":20950.16,"text":"查一次包含"},{"start":20950.16,"end":20952.16,"text":"抽樣的部分也是一樣除了"},{"start":20952.16,"end":20954.16,"text":"他自主的檢驗也要外部"},{"start":20954.16,"end":20956.16,"text":"的抽樣這樣好謝謝"},{"start":20956.16,"end":20958.16,"text":"部長謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":20967.69,"end":20969.69,"text":"接下來請張志綸委員諮詢"},{"start":20978.36,"end":20980.36,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員好"},{"start":20980.36,"end":20982.36,"text":"有請衛福部時部長"},{"start":20982.36,"end":20984.36,"text":"時要署江署長"},{"start":20986.89,"end":20988.89,"text":"好好好好部長好署長好"},{"start":20988.89,"end":20990.89,"text":"針對這次巴西"},{"start":20990.89,"end":20992.89,"text":"黃豆毒油事件"},{"start":20992.89,"end":20994.89,"text":"請教部長到底這次"},{"start":20994.89,"end":20996.89,"text":"的中原有紙的"},{"start":20996.89,"end":20998.89,"text":"癌油事件他的問題"},{"start":20998.89,"end":21000.89,"text":"是出在巴西黃豆"},{"start":21000.89,"end":21002.89,"text":"還是出在自產的問題"},{"start":21002.89,"end":21004.89,"text":"從他的我們"},{"start":21004.89,"end":21006.89,"text":"檢驗的他這麼多批"},{"start":21006.89,"end":21008.89,"text":"那麼去看到第一個"},{"start":21008.89,"end":21010.89,"text":"是他的如果是美國"},{"start":21010.89,"end":21012.89,"text":"豆做的大概都沒有"},{"start":21012.89,"end":21014.89,"text":"問題符合那麼巴西"},{"start":21014.89,"end":21016.89,"text":"做的也不是每一批"},{"start":21016.89,"end":21018.89,"text":"都有問題因為剛剛檢驗出來"},{"start":21018.89,"end":21020.89,"text":"一共是七批所以"},{"start":21020.89,"end":21022.89,"text":"當然他的原料"},{"start":21022.89,"end":21024.89,"text":"會影響他的品質確實"},{"start":21026.87,"end":21028.87,"text":"那只有豆的問題嗎"},{"start":21028.87,"end":21030.87,"text":"當然他的製程在我們"},{"start":21030.87,"end":21032.87,"text":"查核的過程的"},{"start":21032.87,"end":21034.87,"text":"追查他的過程當中也發現"},{"start":21034.87,"end":21036.87,"text":"他幾個節點重要的節點"},{"start":21036.87,"end":21038.87,"text":"也沒有完全符合標準"},{"start":21038.87,"end":21040.87,"text":"所以這個製程跟"},{"start":21040.87,"end":21042.87,"text":"這個原料這兩個都是有"},{"start":21042.87,"end":21044.87,"text":"他的關聯性"},{"start":21044.87,"end":21046.87,"text":"謝謝部長的回應所以部長剛剛提到"},{"start":21046.87,"end":21048.87,"text":"一個非常重要的問題就是巴西"},{"start":21048.87,"end":21050.87,"text":"黃豆進口出了問題"},{"start":21050.87,"end":21052.87,"text":"這不僅讓我想到當時"},{"start":21052.87,"end":21054.87,"text":"巴西雞蛋進口有出"},{"start":21054.87,"end":21056.87,"text":"出了問題喔"},{"start":21056.87,"end":21058.87,"text":"政府部當時也有調查"},{"start":21058.87,"end":21060.87,"text":"一個最新的報告"},{"start":21060.87,"end":21062.87,"text":"有指從去年幾四日將"},{"start":21062.87,"end":21064.87,"text":"巴西黃豆的原料的熱損率"},{"start":21064.87,"end":21066.87,"text":"的允收標準從"},{"start":21066.87,"end":21068.87,"text":"0.5%大幅放寬10%"},{"start":21068.87,"end":21070.87,"text":"到5%"},{"start":21070.87,"end":21072.87,"text":"那我想要請教這個"},{"start":21072.87,"end":21074.87,"text":"部長針對"},{"start":21075.12,"end":21077.12,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":21077.12,"end":21079.12,"text":"大幅調升10倍進這種有問題的"},{"start":21079.12,"end":21081.12,"text":"黃豆進來請問衛福部食藥署"},{"start":21081.12,"end":21083.12,"text":"你們的動作是什麼"},{"start":21083.12,"end":21085.12,"text":"跟委員說明並不是這個叫做"},{"start":21085.12,"end":21087.12,"text":"有問題的"},{"start":21087.12,"end":21089.12,"text":"黃豆就是說他的品質上"},{"start":21089.12,"end":21091.12,"text":"是比較差的"},{"start":21091.12,"end":21093.12,"text":"他並不是"},{"start":21093.12,"end":21095.12,"text":"在我們的這個檢驗"},{"start":21095.12,"end":21097.12,"text":"邊境檢驗的部分"},{"start":21097.12,"end":21099.12,"text":"你們邊境檢驗做了什麼"},{"start":21099.12,"end":21101.12,"text":"你們有沒有發現"},{"start":21101.12,"end":21103.12,"text":"有提升10%"},{"start":21103.12,"end":21105.12,"text":"因為他這個"},{"start":21105.12,"end":21107.12,"text":"過程裡面他有儲存的關係"},{"start":21107.12,"end":21109.12,"text":"他並不是從邊境就是"},{"start":21109.12,"end":21111.12,"text":"有問題進來並不是這樣"},{"start":21111.12,"end":21113.12,"text":"是在他的儲存跟"},{"start":21113.12,"end":21115.12,"text":"這個處理的過程當中"},{"start":21115.12,"end":21117.12,"text":"他的品質要做"},{"start":21117.12,"end":21119.12,"text":"有之前的那個"},{"start":21119.12,"end":21121.12,"text":"那請教部長你這樣講你對邊境"},{"start":21121.17,"end":21123.17,"text":"不管是官務署跟食藥署你們"},{"start":21123.17,"end":21125.17,"text":"針對邊境檢驗這些"},{"start":21125.17,"end":21127.17,"text":"問題黃豆你們如何檢驗"},{"start":21127.17,"end":21129.17,"text":"你們有沒有檢驗"},{"start":21129.17,"end":21131.17,"text":"我們在邊境的查驗主要是在"},{"start":21131.17,"end":21133.17,"text":"農藥重心署的殘留"},{"start":21133.17,"end":21135.17,"text":"這些都要驗這個是在"},{"start":21135.17,"end":21137.17,"text":"邊境的"},{"start":21137.17,"end":21139.17,"text":"但是他進來之後"},{"start":21139.17,"end":21141.17,"text":"熱損率是他加工的過程當中"},{"start":21141.17,"end":21143.17,"text":"產生的並不是原料"},{"start":21143.17,"end":21145.17,"text":"產生的這個原料要"},{"start":21145.17,"end":21147.17,"text":"進入到煉油的過程"},{"start":21147.17,"end":21149.17,"text":"他先要去做處理"},{"start":21149.17,"end":21151.17,"text":"處理的過程當中會產生這個"},{"start":21151.17,"end":21153.17,"text":"熱損利率的問題"},{"start":21153.17,"end":21155.17,"text":"還是請你要回答我的問題"},{"start":21155.17,"end":21157.17,"text":"針對"},{"start":21156.72,"end":21158.72,"text":"現在這些問題的巴西黃豆"},{"start":21158.72,"end":21160.72,"text":"你的邊境檢驗是如何檢驗"},{"start":21160.93,"end":21162.93,"text":"邊境的檢驗就是按照我們現在的重金屬"},{"start":21162.93,"end":21164.93,"text":"剛剛所謂委員"},{"start":21164.93,"end":21166.93,"text":"特別提到就是這一批的"},{"start":21166.93,"end":21168.93,"text":"巴西黃豆在運製過程中"},{"start":21168.93,"end":21170.93,"text":"就產生了問題"},{"start":21170.93,"end":21172.93,"text":"所以邊境檢驗非常的重要"},{"start":21172.93,"end":21174.93,"text":"你不認為嗎"},{"start":21174.93,"end":21176.93,"text":"邊境有邊境檢驗要查的項目"},{"start":21176.93,"end":21178.93,"text":"但是我剛剛提到這個所謂的"},{"start":21178.93,"end":21180.93,"text":"熱損利率是在他的加工"},{"start":21180.93,"end":21182.93,"text":"原料準備的過程當中"},{"start":21182.93,"end":21184.93,"text":"產生的並不是在"},{"start":21184.93,"end":21186.93,"text":"邊境產生的"},{"start":21186.93,"end":21188.93,"text":"所以你認為邊境檢驗上沒有問題嗎"},{"start":21188.93,"end":21190.93,"text":"我不會測這個"},{"start":21190.93,"end":21194.93,"text":"這個是他在後面烘造的過程當中造成的"},{"start":21194.93,"end":21196.93,"text":"並不是在邊境"},{"start":21196.93,"end":21198.93,"text":"所以部長你能保證這一批巴西黃豆"},{"start":21198.93,"end":21200.93,"text":"在邊境運進來的過程中"},{"start":21200.93,"end":21202.93,"text":"到我們的港口檢驗沒有問題嗎"},{"start":21202.93,"end":21204.93,"text":"在我們的邊境主要是"},{"start":21204.93,"end":21206.93,"text":"因為這個問題"},{"start":21206.93,"end":21208.93,"text":"請問一下部長你能確定嗎"},{"start":21208.93,"end":21210.93,"text":"你現在能跟國人確定嗎"},{"start":21209.54,"end":21211.54,"text":"我們在邊境查的就是"},{"start":21211.54,"end":21215.54,"text":"黃麴毒素、重金屬、農藥殘留"},{"start":21215.54,"end":21217.54,"text":"這個是在我們邊境"},{"start":21217.54,"end":21219.54,"text":"而這個本棉筆是在後端加工的時候產生"},{"start":21219.54,"end":21221.54,"text":"所以他"},{"start":21221.54,"end":21223.54,"text":"我講的原料是指說他在加工的過程當中"},{"start":21223.54,"end":21225.54,"text":"一開始是黃豆的處理過程"},{"start":21225.54,"end":21227.54,"text":"那另外"},{"start":21227.54,"end":21229.54,"text":"下一端才是煉油的過程"},{"start":21229.54,"end":21231.54,"text":"講的是"},{"start":21231.54,"end":21233.54,"text":"不是在邊境"},{"start":21233.54,"end":21235.54,"text":"這個跟邊境沒有關係"},{"start":21235.54,"end":21237.54,"text":"是他在加工處理這個原料上"},{"start":21237.54,"end":21239.54,"text":"你很清楚啊"},{"start":21239.54,"end":21241.54,"text":"你因為就是要把它全部推給廠商的責任"},{"start":21241.54,"end":21243.54,"text":"可是本席要在這邊"},{"start":21243.54,"end":21245.54,"text":"要跟部長嚴重的說"},{"start":21245.54,"end":21247.54,"text":"其實當時你們邊境這批黃豆進來"},{"start":21247.54,"end":21249.54,"text":"本席認為"},{"start":21249.54,"end":21251.54,"text":"就已經產生問題了"},{"start":21251.54,"end":21253.54,"text":"跟他說有什麼你根本講的"},{"start":21253.54,"end":21255.54,"text":"這個熱水率當然有問題"},{"start":21255.54,"end":21257.54,"text":"可是他是一整批整個的問題啊"},{"start":21257.54,"end":21259.54,"text":"所以要拜託部長你們邊境檢疫是不是出了問題"},{"start":21259.54,"end":21261.54,"text":"請會後"},{"start":21261.54,"end":21263.54,"text":"你們把你們邊境檢疫的資料"},{"start":21263.54,"end":21265.54,"text":"拿給本席看"},{"start":21265.54,"end":21267.54,"text":"如果會提供給委員"},{"start":21267.54,"end":21269.54,"text":"如果邊境檢疫的時候"},{"start":21269.54,"end":21271.54,"text":"如果又有"},{"start":21271.54,"end":21273.54,"text":"到底是從哪邊進口是不是又有綠油油"},{"start":21273.54,"end":21275.54,"text":"這些問題啊"},{"start":21275.54,"end":21277.54,"text":"本席要特別請署長特別要來"},{"start":21277.54,"end":21279.54,"text":"看是不是這樣子類似我們87"},{"start":21279.54,"end":21281.54,"text":"雞蛋相關的問題"},{"start":21281.54,"end":21283.54,"text":"那第二個我要請教署長的是"},{"start":21283.54,"end":21285.54,"text":"部長的是到底人民現在"},{"start":21285.54,"end":21287.54,"text":"吃下多少的毒油請問你們有統計數量嗎"},{"start":21288.87,"end":21290.87,"text":"這個數量上我們有回收的數量"},{"start":21290.87,"end":21292.87,"text":"公佈在我們的網站"},{"start":21292.87,"end":21294.87,"text":"來我交給部長"},{"start":21294.87,"end":21296.87,"text":"現在是不是7批"},{"start":21296.87,"end":21298.87,"text":"總共有三艘船"},{"start":21298.87,"end":21300.87,"text":"6批共進了18批的"},{"start":21300.87,"end":21302.87,"text":"共進了18批的黃豆總共"},{"start":21302.87,"end":21304.87,"text":"生產了30批的油"},{"start":21304.87,"end":21306.87,"text":"這個油"},{"start":21306.87,"end":21308.87,"text":"裡面有7批是潤體油"},{"start":21308.87,"end":21310.87,"text":"所以7批潤體油總共"},{"start":21310.87,"end":21312.87,"text":"8478.88公噸"},{"start":21312.87,"end":21314.87,"text":"預計回收是"},{"start":21314.87,"end":21316.87,"text":"2771.2公噸"},{"start":21316.87,"end":21320.87,"text":"剩下的5707.68公噸去了哪裡"},{"start":21321.63,"end":21323.63,"text":"這是不是就是被人民吃下毒的問題"},{"start":21323.63,"end":21325.63,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":21325.63,"end":21327.63,"text":"您提的是那個黃豆的"},{"start":21327.63,"end":21329.63,"text":"燉素嗎"},{"start":21329.63,"end":21331.63,"text":"是油的燉素 油7批總共"},{"start":21331.63,"end":21333.63,"text":"是8478.88噸對吧"},{"start":21334.82,"end":21336.82,"text":"我們對一下數字"},{"start":21336.82,"end":21338.82,"text":"精確一點"},{"start":21338.82,"end":21340.82,"text":"現在連7批油都不知道嗎"},{"start":21340.82,"end":21342.82,"text":"7批我們現在是"},{"start":21342.82,"end":21344.82,"text":"這個回收的話"},{"start":21344.82,"end":21346.82,"text":"是"},{"start":21346.82,"end":21348.82,"text":"2794.1噸"},{"start":21348.82,"end":21350.82,"text":"這個回收了嘛"},{"start":21350.82,"end":21352.82,"text":"那你預計"},{"start":21352.82,"end":21354.82,"text":"7批潤體油"},{"start":21354.82,"end":21356.82,"text":"總共回收了"},{"start":21356.82,"end":21358.82,"text":"7批潤體油總共8000多公噸"},{"start":21358.82,"end":21360.82,"text":"總共只有回收2700多公噸"},{"start":21360.82,"end":21362.82,"text":"那剩下5700多公噸去了哪裡"},{"start":21363.63,"end":21365.63,"text":"不是就是吃"},{"start":21365.63,"end":21367.63,"text":"人民吃下去的問題油嗎"},{"start":21367.63,"end":21369.63,"text":"我們是大概2萬多噸"},{"start":21369.63,"end":21371.63,"text":"2萬多噸是預防性"},{"start":21371.63,"end":21373.63,"text":"下架嘛"},{"start":21373.63,"end":21375.63,"text":"就是下架的大7批"},{"start":21375.63,"end":21377.63,"text":"大7批的問題油是幾公噸"},{"start":21377.63,"end":21379.63,"text":"2."},{"start":21379.63,"end":21381.63,"text":"是8478"},{"start":21381.63,"end":21383.63,"text":"8478噸噸"},{"start":21383.63,"end":21385.63,"text":"再確認一下數字"},{"start":21385.63,"end":21387.63,"text":"委員這個數字是正確的"},{"start":21387.63,"end":21389.63,"text":"所以我們確定的現在就是"},{"start":21389.63,"end":21391.63,"text":"5707.68噸的問題油"},{"start":21391.63,"end":21393.63,"text":"不見了嘛被人民吃下肚了嘛"},{"start":21393.63,"end":21395.63,"text":"對不對"},{"start":21395.4,"end":21397.4,"text":"這個完全的起因就是"},{"start":21397.4,"end":21399.4,"text":"因為他隱匿"},{"start":21399.4,"end":21401.4,"text":"所以他延後通報才讓我們"},{"start":21401.4,"end":21403.4,"text":"沒有機會去"},{"start":21403.4,"end":21405.4,"text":"回收啊"},{"start":21405.4,"end":21407.4,"text":"到底多吃下去多少問題油"},{"start":21407.4,"end":21409.4,"text":"我都已經幫你算出來了"},{"start":21409.4,"end":21411.4,"text":"這個油就是因為他隱匿延遲的通報"},{"start":21411.4,"end":21413.4,"text":"然後才造成我們"},{"start":21413.4,"end":21415.4,"text":"你知道我們人民吃下了5000多噸的"},{"start":21415.4,"end":21417.4,"text":"問題油平均一個人一個家庭"},{"start":21417.4,"end":21419.4,"text":"一家四口吃下多少問題油嗎"},{"start":21419.4,"end":21421.4,"text":"就吃下了大部分一罐"},{"start":21421.4,"end":21423.4,"text":"一小罐一公升的問題油啊部長"},{"start":21423.4,"end":21425.4,"text":"這個數字喔"},{"start":21425.4,"end":21427.4,"text":"我很感謝你們把詳細資料提供給我"},{"start":21427.4,"end":21429.4,"text":"這樣我可以算得出來"},{"start":21429.4,"end":21431.4,"text":"所以部長跟市長"},{"start":21431.74,"end":21433.74,"text":"剛剛提的數字裡面喔"},{"start":21433.74,"end":21435.74,"text":"油 即是說炸的油之後"},{"start":21435.74,"end":21437.74,"text":"大部分的油炸完之後"},{"start":21437.74,"end":21439.74,"text":"其實是要去"},{"start":21439.74,"end":21441.74,"text":"要去丟棄的 因為已經炸完之後"},{"start":21441.74,"end":21443.74,"text":"他就會替換油 並不是都是喝下去的"},{"start":21443.74,"end":21445.74,"text":"所以他其實在運用的"},{"start":21445.74,"end":21447.74,"text":"好那我現在現在所有用的油"},{"start":21447.74,"end":21449.74,"text":"是5700多噸"},{"start":21449.74,"end":21451.74,"text":"人民吃下去多少噸嘛 你可以回答嗎"},{"start":21453.15,"end":21455.15,"text":"這個每個製程"},{"start":21455.15,"end":21457.15,"text":"每個製程有的是回收"},{"start":21457.15,"end":21459.15,"text":"其實它的一定的比例"},{"start":21459.15,"end":21461.15,"text":"這個是在產業上面的使用會有些不一樣的地方"},{"start":21461.15,"end":21463.15,"text":"所有做出來的問題喔"},{"start":21463.15,"end":21465.15,"text":"我算出來的數字就是這麼明確"},{"start":21465.15,"end":21467.15,"text":"再來我想要請教部長跟署長"},{"start":21467.15,"end":21469.15,"text":"現在人民還很擔心"},{"start":21469.15,"end":21471.15,"text":"這些有問題的巴西黃豆"},{"start":21471.48,"end":21473.48,"text":"製造完以後會產生大量的副產品"},{"start":21473.48,"end":21475.48,"text":"我俗稱它叫豆渣跟豆粿"},{"start":21475.48,"end":21477.48,"text":"那這些豆渣跟豆粿"},{"start":21477.48,"end":21479.48,"text":"其實你們如何處理"},{"start":21479.48,"end":21481.48,"text":"在很多新聞上也都提說"},{"start":21481.48,"end":21483.48,"text":"它可能製成豆漿"},{"start":21483.48,"end":21485.48,"text":"剛剛有問人說製成豆皮"},{"start":21485.48,"end":21487.48,"text":"不會不會"},{"start":21487.48,"end":21489.48,"text":"或者是有沒有做成飼料"},{"start":21489.48,"end":21491.48,"text":"那問題有的這些產業物到哪裡去了"},{"start":21491.48,"end":21493.48,"text":"這一批貨就是進入到這個場"},{"start":21493.48,"end":21495.48,"text":"我說有知道"},{"start":21495.48,"end":21497.48,"text":"那剩下來的呢"},{"start":21497.48,"end":21499.48,"text":"副產品的豆渣跟豆粿去哪裡了"},{"start":21500.6,"end":21502.6,"text":"那個不會進入"},{"start":21502.6,"end":21504.6,"text":"那個就是那個"},{"start":21504.6,"end":21506.6,"text":"過去就是做飼料啊"},{"start":21506.6,"end":21508.6,"text":"那飼料這些不是有毒的飼料嗎"},{"start":21508.6,"end":21510.6,"text":"不會進入到人體的"},{"start":21510.6,"end":21512.6,"text":"那也就是說做成飼料就可以吃"},{"start":21512.6,"end":21514.6,"text":"做成"},{"start":21514.6,"end":21516.6,"text":"你們有沒有在後續去檢查"},{"start":21516.6,"end":21518.6,"text":"這些有問題的飼料去哪裡了"},{"start":21518.6,"end":21520.6,"text":"飼料是養豬的"},{"start":21520.6,"end":21522.6,"text":"飼料是養豬的"},{"start":21524.18,"end":21526.18,"text":"有沒有人可以回答這個問題"},{"start":21526.18,"end":21528.18,"text":"沒有人可以回答這個問題嗎"},{"start":21528.4,"end":21530.4,"text":"所以我必須要講啊"},{"start":21530.4,"end":21532.4,"text":"這些問題造成有這些巴西"},{"start":21532.4,"end":21534.4,"text":"黃豆的副產品"},{"start":21534.4,"end":21536.4,"text":"這些飼料"},{"start":21536.33,"end":21538.33,"text":"我個人認為啊"},{"start":21538.33,"end":21540.33,"text":"這些飼料也是你們現在去查毒油的一個來源之一"},{"start":21540.33,"end":21542.33,"text":"所以你們應該可以驗得出來"},{"start":21542.33,"end":21544.33,"text":"這個飼料應該存有毒物"},{"start":21544.33,"end":21546.33,"text":"你們可以反推說"},{"start":21546.33,"end":21548.33,"text":"這個製程如果沒有問題的話是黃豆的問題"},{"start":21548.33,"end":21550.33,"text":"所以你們現在的這些"},{"start":21550.42,"end":21552.42,"text":"副產品這些"},{"start":21552.43,"end":21554.43,"text":"豆渣做成的"},{"start":21554.62,"end":21556.62,"text":"這個飼料你們完全沒有去查驗"},{"start":21556.62,"end":21558.62,"text":"所以這點我要跟部長"},{"start":21558.62,"end":21560.62,"text":"報告說"},{"start":21560.62,"end":21562.62,"text":"這是相當萬有的問題你們要趕快去"},{"start":21562.62,"end":21564.62,"text":"這個BAP是存在在油裡面"},{"start":21564.62,"end":21566.62,"text":"所以你說副產品完全沒有"},{"start":21566.62,"end":21568.62,"text":"完全沒有毒嗎"},{"start":21568.62,"end":21570.62,"text":"它已經沒有油就沒有辦法去驗"},{"start":21570.43,"end":21572.43,"text":"完全沒有毒"},{"start":21572.43,"end":21574.43,"text":"所以毒油造成的副產品沒有毒"},{"start":21574.43,"end":21576.43,"text":"它沒有辦法驗可是可以給動物吃"},{"start":21576.43,"end":21578.43,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":21578.43,"end":21580.43,"text":"那我再請教第二個問題"},{"start":21581.28,"end":21583.28,"text":"部長跟"},{"start":21582.5,"end":21584.5,"text":"部長講我認為"},{"start":21584.5,"end":21586.5,"text":"這次的毒油事件千萬"},{"start":21586.5,"end":21588.5,"text":"你們上面的源頭不管從進口"},{"start":21588.5,"end":21590.5,"text":"從這批有問題的巴西豆"},{"start":21590.5,"end":21592.5,"text":"你們都不敢說有沒有問題"},{"start":21592.5,"end":21594.5,"text":"而且還放任"},{"start":21594.55,"end":21596.55,"text":"這個業者把他的這些什麼熱藍綠上升10%"},{"start":21596.55,"end":21598.55,"text":"你們到最近才說這樣的話"},{"start":21598.55,"end":21600.55,"text":"我本席覺得非常不能接受"},{"start":21602.06,"end":21604.06,"text":"我也不應該"},{"start":21604.06,"end":21606.06,"text":"我也不應該推給地方政府我舉例"},{"start":21605.41,"end":21607.41,"text":"像國營事業台糖"},{"start":21607.41,"end":21609.41,"text":"它其實營有跟中聯食品"},{"start":21609.41,"end":21611.41,"text":"近代問題"},{"start":21611.41,"end":21613.41,"text":"有問題的問題有品"},{"start":21613.41,"end":21615.41,"text":"我想請教一下台糖也查不出來"},{"start":21615.41,"end":21617.41,"text":"台糖為什麼也沒有查出來"},{"start":21617.41,"end":21619.41,"text":"它收到這批"},{"start":21618.91,"end":21620.91,"text":"這個油脂的油是問題油"},{"start":21620.91,"end":21622.91,"text":"所以我的意思就是說你上油"},{"start":21622.91,"end":21624.91,"text":"你的水庫就已經有毒了"},{"start":21624.91,"end":21626.91,"text":"你一直去"},{"start":21627.27,"end":21631.27,"text":"家家戶戶的百姓問說你家裡有沒有毒油或毒水"},{"start":21631.27,"end":21633.27,"text":"這樣本席認為是非常不合理的"},{"start":21633.27,"end":21635.27,"text":"那我請教一下請問"},{"start":21635.27,"end":21637.27,"text":"部長跟署長你知不知道"},{"start":21637.27,"end":21639.27,"text":"為什麼台糖它有拿到問題油"},{"start":21639.27,"end":21641.27,"text":"所以它才預防性下降"},{"start":21641.27,"end":21643.27,"text":"為什麼它沒有查出來這點你們清楚嗎"},{"start":21644.55,"end":21646.55,"text":"它沒有允收"},{"start":21646.55,"end":21648.55,"text":"它沒有允收什麼製成產品"},{"start":21649.73,"end":21651.73,"text":"它沒有它都是符合標準"},{"start":21651.73,"end":21653.73,"text":"它才允收"},{"start":21653.73,"end":21655.73,"text":"它是因為拿到問題油以後製成的產品"},{"start":21655.73,"end":21657.73,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":21657.73,"end":21659.73,"text":"可是它當時就有跟中聯油脂拿到問題油"},{"start":21660.34,"end":21662.34,"text":"它也沒有查出來"},{"start":21662.34,"end":21664.34,"text":"我跟你們報告"},{"start":21664.34,"end":21666.34,"text":"我們台糖是國營公司上市的公司"},{"start":21666.34,"end":21668.34,"text":"它也查不出來"},{"start":21668.34,"end":21670.34,"text":"還有工廠還在高雄"},{"start":21671.48,"end":21673.48,"text":"台糖公司報告"},{"start":21674.92,"end":21676.92,"text":"台糖的沙拉油都是用美國的黃豆"},{"start":21676.92,"end":21678.92,"text":"台糖的沙拉油都是用美國的黃豆"},{"start":21678.92,"end":21680.92,"text":"中聯油脂進給台糖那批"},{"start":21680.92,"end":21682.92,"text":"中聯油脂進給台糖那批"},{"start":21682.92,"end":21684.92,"text":"預防性下降"},{"start":21684.92,"end":21686.92,"text":"你現在跟我講美國黃豆"},{"start":21686.92,"end":21688.92,"text":"我跟委員說明一下"},{"start":21689.33,"end":21691.33,"text":"美國的黃豆造成的出油"},{"start":21691.33,"end":21693.33,"text":"那是絕對不會有問題"},{"start":21693.33,"end":21695.33,"text":"那我們不足的部分"},{"start":21695.33,"end":21697.33,"text":"會有跟中聯油脂進"},{"start":21697.33,"end":21699.33,"text":"那為什麼你們拿到你們有沒有驗"},{"start":21699.64,"end":21701.64,"text":"中聯油脂的部分我們有驗"},{"start":21701.64,"end":21703.64,"text":"每一批我們都會驗"},{"start":21703.64,"end":21705.64,"text":"那因為有一批驗"},{"start":21705.64,"end":21707.64,"text":"驗出來的鈔票我們就沒有收"},{"start":21707.64,"end":21709.64,"text":"其他都有收"},{"start":21709.64,"end":21711.64,"text":"那為什麼驗到你們沒有回報"},{"start":21712.98,"end":21714.98,"text":"那表示現在讓我們才知道說"},{"start":21714.98,"end":21716.98,"text":"其實台糖有收到中聯油脂的"},{"start":21716.98,"end":21718.98,"text":"毒油"},{"start":21718.98,"end":21720.98,"text":"結果沒有回報沒有申報"},{"start":21720.98,"end":21722.98,"text":"你現在意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":21723.12,"end":21725.12,"text":"那個是出油"},{"start":21725.12,"end":21727.12,"text":"有毒不用回報"},{"start":21727.12,"end":21729.12,"text":"那個不是成品油"},{"start":21729.12,"end":21731.12,"text":"那我了解現在"},{"start":21731.12,"end":21733.12,"text":"我們南僑拿到的也不是"},{"start":21733.12,"end":21735.12,"text":"也是出油也不是產品"},{"start":21735.22,"end":21737.22,"text":"那你意思是現在說拿到出油"},{"start":21737.22,"end":21739.22,"text":"也不用回報"},{"start":21740.79,"end":21742.79,"text":"不是不一樣"},{"start":21742.17,"end":21744.17,"text":"因為在我們油品的話"},{"start":21744.17,"end":21746.17,"text":"是以我們訂的兩批批批"},{"start":21746.17,"end":21748.17,"text":"是訂產品"},{"start":21748.17,"end":21750.17,"text":"產品的標準"},{"start":21750.17,"end":21752.17,"text":"不是原料標準"},{"start":21752.17,"end":21754.17,"text":"所以原料有本品皮沒有問題"},{"start":21754.17,"end":21756.17,"text":"但是它的過程製程當中"},{"start":21756.17,"end":21758.17,"text":"是可以處理可以精煉"},{"start":21758.17,"end":21760.17,"text":"它透過精煉的過程可以下降"},{"start":21760.17,"end":21762.17,"text":"所以這個不一樣"},{"start":21762.17,"end":21764.17,"text":"所以部長 現在有進有問題的"},{"start":21764.17,"end":21766.17,"text":"巴西黃豆不用驗"},{"start":21766.17,"end":21768.17,"text":"有進有問題的"},{"start":21768.17,"end":21770.17,"text":"有問題油的"},{"start":21770.17,"end":21772.17,"text":"這個出品也不用驗"},{"start":21772.17,"end":21774.17,"text":"難道這是我們食安武漢"},{"start":21774.17,"end":21776.17,"text":"原料要驗"},{"start":21776.17,"end":21778.17,"text":"驗完之後它就會去調整它的製程"},{"start":21778.17,"end":21780.17,"text":"所以要調整精煉"},{"start":21780.17,"end":21782.17,"text":"拿到有毒的就先調整"},{"start":21782.17,"end":21784.17,"text":"不是拿到有毒你的品質不同"},{"start":21784.17,"end":21786.17,"text":"那麼你的精煉的過程當中"},{"start":21786.17,"end":21788.17,"text":"就有不同的手法"},{"start":21788.17,"end":21790.17,"text":"部長 我今天要跟你分享這些東西"},{"start":21790.17,"end":21794.17,"text":"都是你未來可以做調整跟改善的一個目標之一"},{"start":21794.17,"end":21796.17,"text":"因為本席就看到這麼多問題"},{"start":21796.17,"end":21798.17,"text":"好 再來我要請教"},{"start":21798.84,"end":21801.84,"text":"這裡這個是針對我相信食安的問題"},{"start":21801.84,"end":21803.84,"text":"全民人群很生氣"},{"start":21803.84,"end":21806.84,"text":"就求一個 就希望我不敢總統要道歉"},{"start":21806.84,"end":21808.84,"text":"我們行政院長要道歉"},{"start":21808.84,"end":21810.84,"text":"那行政院長這題"},{"start":21810.84,"end":21811.84,"text":"我不知道部長可以回答"},{"start":21811.84,"end":21813.84,"text":"行政院長在4月1號"},{"start":21813.84,"end":21816.84,"text":"針對一批油品有道歉"},{"start":21816.84,"end":21819.84,"text":"可是本席要覺得很納悶的就是"},{"start":21819.84,"end":21821.84,"text":"其實這一批油品"},{"start":21821.84,"end":21823.84,"text":"根據食藥署的了解"},{"start":21823.84,"end":21826.84,"text":"這批油品其實它是不是有問題的黃豆"},{"start":21826.84,"end":21828.84,"text":"它是美國黃豆"},{"start":21828.84,"end":21830.84,"text":"美國黃豆製作成的製成品"},{"start":21830.84,"end":21834.84,"text":"所以我不瞭解這個總統態院長針對4月1號"},{"start":21834.84,"end":21836.84,"text":"他只認為行政流程有缺失"},{"start":21836.84,"end":21838.84,"text":"他只能針對的是沒有問題"},{"start":21838.84,"end":21840.84,"text":"用美國黃豆製成的"},{"start":21842.17,"end":21844.17,"text":"這個食用油來做道歉"},{"start":21844.17,"end":21845.17,"text":"他認為說"},{"start":21845.17,"end":21847.17,"text":"因為你們食藥署沒有跟他好好報告"},{"start":21847.17,"end":21848.17,"text":"他很生氣"},{"start":21848.17,"end":21850.17,"text":"可是他到現在為止"},{"start":21850.17,"end":21854.17,"text":"是完全沒有對巴西黃豆的毒油事件做道歉"},{"start":21854.17,"end":21856.17,"text":"我這樣講有錯嗎"},{"start":21856.17,"end":21857.17,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":21857.17,"end":21861.17,"text":"我們主要是在7月9號已經公佈"},{"start":21861.17,"end":21865.17,"text":"4月到6月所有他的產品都是要下架"},{"start":21865.17,"end":21867.17,"text":"同時他要報給我們批號"},{"start":21867.17,"end":21870.17,"text":"但是他沒有報4月1號"},{"start":21870.17,"end":21871.17,"text":"我看你很生氣"},{"start":21871.17,"end":21873.17,"text":"今天太守總隊被批號的話"},{"start":21873.17,"end":21874.17,"text":"因為隱匿"},{"start":21874.17,"end":21876.17,"text":"所以我們後來又加罰他"},{"start":21876.17,"end":21878.17,"text":"那批的是美國黃豆"},{"start":21878.17,"end":21880.17,"text":"那不是巴西黃豆造成的毒油"},{"start":21880.17,"end":21882.17,"text":"這跟那個明天一點在變了"},{"start":21882.17,"end":21884.17,"text":"部長我說的有錯嗎"},{"start":21884.17,"end":21886.17,"text":"這個是我們到最後"},{"start":21886.17,"end":21888.17,"text":"經過完整的檢驗之後"},{"start":21888.17,"end":21890.17,"text":"才去確認他的問題出在哪裡"},{"start":21890.17,"end":21892.17,"text":"我問一下4月1號"},{"start":21892.17,"end":21894.17,"text":"我們沒辦法"},{"start":21894.17,"end":21898.17,"text":"我們會要求4月到6月全部預防性下降"},{"start":21898.17,"end":21900.17,"text":"4月1號我問部長"},{"start":21900.17,"end":21902.17,"text":"4月1號那批的使用油"},{"start":21902.17,"end":21904.17,"text":"是不是美國黃豆不是巴西黃豆"},{"start":21904.17,"end":21906.17,"text":"請回答"},{"start":21905.2,"end":21907.2,"text":"他是用"},{"start":21907.2,"end":21909.2,"text":"對這是用的是美國"},{"start":21909.2,"end":21911.2,"text":"所以卓文泰院長沒有對這次毒油事件道歉"},{"start":21911.2,"end":21914.2,"text":"他是對行政程序大家沒有聽到的話"},{"start":21914.2,"end":21916.2,"text":"把4月1號的批次給他"},{"start":21916.2,"end":21917.2,"text":"他很生氣"},{"start":21917.97,"end":21919.97,"text":"所以部長、署長我還是要跟你們講"},{"start":21919.97,"end":21921.97,"text":"最後"},{"start":21921.63,"end":21923.63,"text":"昨天在開完會"},{"start":21923.63,"end":21925.63,"text":"有19批的商品"},{"start":21925.63,"end":21927.63,"text":"重新下架"},{"start":21927.63,"end":21929.63,"text":"部長你們在這19批"},{"start":21929.63,"end":21931.63,"text":"重新上架"},{"start":21931.44,"end":21933.44,"text":"有品的公斤數多少嗎"},{"start":21933.44,"end":21935.44,"text":"就我算原本的"},{"start":21935.44,"end":21937.44,"text":"你們支給我的是4000多公噸"},{"start":21937.44,"end":21939.44,"text":"你們都查完這4000公噸"},{"start":21939.44,"end":21941.44,"text":"完全沒有問題嗎你們是怎麼查的"},{"start":21941.44,"end":21943.44,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":21943.44,"end":21945.44,"text":"這是為了當時候因為他的"},{"start":21945.44,"end":21947.44,"text":"中聯的這個隱匿"},{"start":21947.44,"end":21949.44,"text":"還有他的檢體沒有"},{"start":21949.44,"end":21951.44,"text":"辦法信任的情況之下"},{"start":21951.44,"end":21953.44,"text":"為了讓國人安心"},{"start":21953.44,"end":21955.44,"text":"所以我們擴大預防性下降"},{"start":21955.44,"end":21957.44,"text":"4到6月"},{"start":21957.44,"end":21959.44,"text":"然後我們再進行逐批他的原有的"},{"start":21959.44,"end":21961.44,"text":"檢驗"},{"start":21961.44,"end":21963.44,"text":"經過我們逐批的原有"},{"start":21963.44,"end":21965.44,"text":"跟下游商品的檢驗"},{"start":21965.44,"end":21967.44,"text":"這19批檢驗都是合格的"},{"start":21967.44,"end":21969.44,"text":"所以我們才公佈他"},{"start":21969.44,"end":21971.44,"text":"部長我們怎麼檢查"},{"start":21971.44,"end":21973.44,"text":"是檢查樣品嗎還是怎麼檢查"},{"start":21973.44,"end":21975.44,"text":"原有就會抽樣"},{"start":21975.44,"end":21977.44,"text":"檢查樣品確定"},{"start":21977.44,"end":21979.44,"text":"有原有的抽樣"},{"start":21979.44,"end":21981.44,"text":"也有下游的產品的抽樣"},{"start":21981.44,"end":21983.44,"text":"所以一共"},{"start":21984.12,"end":21986.12,"text":"原有當然是抽樣的樣本"},{"start":21986.12,"end":21988.12,"text":"然後產品也會去"},{"start":21988.12,"end":21990.12,"text":"做抽樣"},{"start":21990.12,"end":21992.12,"text":"是產品還是樣品"},{"start":21992.12,"end":21994.12,"text":"下游的是產品上游的是"},{"start":21994.12,"end":21996.12,"text":"原有的抽樣"},{"start":21996.12,"end":21998.12,"text":"所以他是兩層"},{"start":21998.12,"end":22000.12,"text":"一起把關所以才會驗200多個"},{"start":22000.12,"end":22002.12,"text":"檢體雖然是"},{"start":22002.12,"end":22004.12,"text":"只有29批但是我們驗了200多個"},{"start":22004.12,"end":22006.12,"text":"檢體就是這樣來的"},{"start":22006.12,"end":22008.12,"text":"確定用抽查的方式沒有問題"},{"start":22008.12,"end":22010.12,"text":"最後"},{"start":22010.12,"end":22012.12,"text":"部長跟署長其實這次的"},{"start":22012.12,"end":22014.12,"text":"毒油事件"},{"start":22014.12,"end":22016.12,"text":"相信中央還有地方"},{"start":22016.12,"end":22018.12,"text":"大家一起努力還有很多地方可以"},{"start":22018.12,"end":22020.12,"text":"去做討論跟改善"},{"start":22020.12,"end":22022.12,"text":"我相信這次毒油事件"},{"start":22022.12,"end":22024.12,"text":"大概全民都吃到了毒油"},{"start":22024.12,"end":22026.12,"text":"我現在剛剛其實"},{"start":22026.12,"end":22028.12,"text":"我們本黨有很多同仁"},{"start":22028.12,"end":22030.12,"text":"去凱道我們有四位"},{"start":22030.12,"end":22032.12,"text":"的人民在凱道上"},{"start":22032.12,"end":22034.12,"text":"進做抗議已經超過"},{"start":22034.12,"end":22036.12,"text":"70多個小時"},{"start":22036.12,"end":22038.12,"text":"我是不是可以邀請部長如果你有"},{"start":22038.12,"end":22040.12,"text":"誠意的話如果這件事情"},{"start":22040.12,"end":22042.12,"text":"有問題的話等一下可以請你講幾句話"},{"start":22042.12,"end":22044.12,"text":"那我是不是也拜託說如果等一下"},{"start":22044.12,"end":22046.12,"text":"委員會開完是不是應該"},{"start":22046.12,"end":22048.12,"text":"去看一下我們台灣正在為"},{"start":22048.12,"end":22050.12,"text":"石安努力的這些我們的"},{"start":22050.12,"end":22052.12,"text":"英雄"},{"start":22051.62,"end":22053.62,"text":"我想我們現在已經提出了"},{"start":22053.62,"end":22055.62,"text":"修法要來把這一些"},{"start":22055.62,"end":22057.62,"text":"從這個事件當中所"},{"start":22057.62,"end":22059.62,"text":"暴露的漏洞趕快把它強化"},{"start":22059.62,"end":22061.62,"text":"所以我們希望能趕快"},{"start":22061.62,"end":22063.62,"text":"來進入在立法院的修法"},{"start":22063.62,"end":22065.62,"text":"讓這個法規能夠"},{"start":22065.62,"end":22067.62,"text":"完備那麼來確保"},{"start":22067.62,"end":22069.62,"text":"這個整個石安制度更好"},{"start":22069.62,"end":22071.62,"text":"所以部長不用過去嗎"},{"start":22072.56,"end":22074.56,"text":"我今天一直在立法院"},{"start":22075.11,"end":22077.11,"text":"後面還有一些"},{"start":22077.11,"end":22079.11,"text":"修法我們要繼續趕快"},{"start":22079.11,"end":22081.11,"text":"你去的話我可以處理"},{"start":22082.05,"end":22084.05,"text":"你去的話我可以陪你"},{"start":22083.96,"end":22085.96,"text":"如果我要去的時候我再"},{"start":22085.96,"end":22087.96,"text":"這樣委員通知"},{"start":22087.96,"end":22089.96,"text":"謝謝部長那部長對這次的石安事件"},{"start":22089.96,"end":22091.96,"text":"你有要表達任何的"},{"start":22091.96,"end":22093.96,"text":"意識嗎 獨留事件你有沒有"},{"start":22093.96,"end":22095.96,"text":"表達任何意識 我之前"},{"start":22095.96,"end":22097.96,"text":"再的表達了這個過程"},{"start":22097.96,"end":22099.96,"text":"確實是造成國人的"},{"start":22099.96,"end":22101.96,"text":"困擾但是我們最快的"},{"start":22101.96,"end":22103.96,"text":"速度讓所有可能"},{"start":22103.96,"end":22105.96,"text":"的問題的商品都下架"},{"start":22105.96,"end":22107.96,"text":"讓確保這個國人"},{"start":22107.96,"end":22109.96,"text":"在使用這個有品上的"},{"start":22109.96,"end":22111.96,"text":"能夠放心那現在我們會"},{"start":22111.96,"end":22113.96,"text":"接下來去精進這整個制度"},{"start":22113.96,"end":22115.96,"text":"讓這個未來這樣的"},{"start":22115.96,"end":22117.96,"text":"事件不再重複發生"},{"start":22117.96,"end":22119.96,"text":"好 部長你其實你這樣子是沒有道歉"},{"start":22119.96,"end":22121.96,"text":"你明清楚嗎"},{"start":22121.86,"end":22123.86,"text":"我上次已經提過了"},{"start":22123.86,"end":22125.86,"text":"我覺得最重要的是"},{"start":22125.86,"end":22127.86,"text":"把事情做好"},{"start":22127.86,"end":22129.86,"text":"道歉的事情我上次"},{"start":22129.86,"end":22131.86,"text":"已經跟大家表達過了"},{"start":22134.07,"end":22136.07,"text":"謝謝張志綸委員質詢"},{"start":22136.07,"end":22138.07,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":22147.27,"end":22149.27,"text":"好了"},{"start":22152.55,"end":22154.55,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊發言 邀請部長"},{"start":22154.55,"end":22156.55,"text":"請施重良部長"},{"start":22159.29,"end":22161.29,"text":"好 各位好"},{"start":22161.18,"end":22163.18,"text":"部長 我想我們先來討論"},{"start":22163.18,"end":22165.18,"text":"那個新冠疫情的議題"},{"start":22165.18,"end":22167.18,"text":"在討論油的之前"},{"start":22167.18,"end":22169.18,"text":"那因為疾管署說"},{"start":22169.18,"end":22171.18,"text":"上週門診 急診"},{"start":22171.18,"end":22173.18,"text":"就診的人次"},{"start":22173.18,"end":22175.18,"text":"計了是4766人次"},{"start":22175.18,"end":22177.18,"text":"那比較前"},{"start":22177.18,"end":22179.18,"text":"前一週呢"},{"start":22179.18,"end":22181.18,"text":"我們上升了將近快要七成"},{"start":22181.18,"end":22183.18,"text":"66.5"},{"start":22183.18,"end":22185.18,"text":"那也就是說連續六週都"},{"start":22185.18,"end":22187.18,"text":"一直在上升"},{"start":22187.18,"end":22189.18,"text":"那也推估說8月"},{"start":22189.18,"end":22191.18,"text":"中左右 8月中 8月下旬"},{"start":22191.18,"end":22193.18,"text":"是會一個高峰"},{"start":22193.18,"end":22195.18,"text":"那這時候可能單週"},{"start":22195.18,"end":22199.18,"text":"就診的人數恐怕會上五萬人"},{"start":22199.18,"end":22201.18,"text":"那上週也有5例"},{"start":22201.18,"end":22203.18,"text":"因為這個"},{"start":22203.18,"end":22205.18,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":22205.18,"end":22207.18,"text":"這個死亡病例"},{"start":22207.18,"end":22209.18,"text":"所以請教部長 在針對於"},{"start":22209.18,"end":22211.18,"text":"新冠升溫的這個醫療準備"},{"start":22211.18,"end":22213.18,"text":"那包括了整個醫療機構"},{"start":22213.18,"end":22215.18,"text":"的快篩藥品"},{"start":22215.18,"end":22217.18,"text":"還有通路"},{"start":22217.18,"end":22219.18,"text":"家用的快篩"},{"start":22219.18,"end":22221.18,"text":"這個曝霍抗病毒的"},{"start":22221.18,"end":22223.18,"text":"藥品儲備"},{"start":22223.18,"end":22225.18,"text":"以及各醫療院所"},{"start":22225.18,"end":22227.18,"text":"醫療量能的這個調整"},{"start":22227.18,"end":22229.18,"text":"你是不是全面在啟動了"},{"start":22229.18,"end":22231.18,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":22231.18,"end":22233.18,"text":"我們現在的這個疫苗都還有"},{"start":22233.18,"end":22235.18,"text":"所以這個機會要呼籲國人"},{"start":22235.18,"end":22237.18,"text":"特別是這個"},{"start":22237.18,"end":22239.18,"text":"有慢性病的高齡的"},{"start":22239.18,"end":22241.18,"text":"趕快接種這個"},{"start":22241.18,"end":22243.18,"text":"COVID的疫苗"},{"start":22243.18,"end":22245.18,"text":"疫苗我們都還充足"},{"start":22245.18,"end":22247.18,"text":"另外在這個看病毒的"},{"start":22247.18,"end":22251.18,"text":"我們每個禮拜都有在記者會跟大家報告"},{"start":22251.18,"end":22253.18,"text":"抗病毒的藥物"},{"start":22253.18,"end":22255.18,"text":"也都充足的"},{"start":22255.18,"end":22257.18,"text":"這個抗病毒藥都充足"},{"start":22257.18,"end":22259.18,"text":"所以現在就是"},{"start":22259.18,"end":22261.18,"text":"還是預防剩餘治療"},{"start":22261.18,"end":22263.18,"text":"能夠打疫苗的趕快打"},{"start":22263.18,"end":22265.18,"text":"但是我要告訴你的是說"},{"start":22265.18,"end":22267.18,"text":"我們重度級的這個"},{"start":22267.18,"end":22271.18,"text":"急救責任的醫院呢"},{"start":22271.18,"end":22273.18,"text":"他們的急診及死訊息"},{"start":22273.18,"end":22275.18,"text":"我認為這個非常重要"},{"start":22275.18,"end":22277.18,"text":"在系統上讓大家去了解"},{"start":22277.18,"end":22279.18,"text":"非常重要"},{"start":22279.18,"end":22281.18,"text":"因為部分的醫院呢"},{"start":22281.18,"end":22283.18,"text":"他在急診住院"},{"start":22283.18,"end":22285.18,"text":"推床IQ加護部門的這個部分呢"},{"start":22285.18,"end":22289.18,"text":"以及他的這個帶路人數"},{"start":22289.18,"end":22291.18,"text":"已經出現了這個壓力"},{"start":22291.18,"end":22293.18,"text":"甚至在昨天有12家的醫院呢"},{"start":22293.18,"end":22295.18,"text":"他已經向你們的系統通報"},{"start":22295.18,"end":22297.18,"text":"我都已經滿床了"},{"start":22297.18,"end":22299.18,"text":"而且急診等待住院的人次呢"},{"start":22299.18,"end":22301.18,"text":"是將近1300"},{"start":22301.18,"end":22303.18,"text":"將近1300人"},{"start":22303.18,"end":22304.18,"text":"1293"},{"start":22304.18,"end":22306.18,"text":"照你們的這個系統數字"},{"start":22306.18,"end":22308.18,"text":"是這麼樣的說明"},{"start":22308.18,"end":22310.18,"text":"那所以我們要怎麼樣有效的"},{"start":22310.18,"end":22314.18,"text":"在這個透過篩檢"},{"start":22314.18,"end":22316.18,"text":"將確診的"},{"start":22316.18,"end":22321.18,"text":"他能夠攔截在清階段的這個時間"},{"start":22321.18,"end":22324.18,"text":"也就是早篩早治"},{"start":22324.18,"end":22327.18,"text":"才不會避免重疾的這個醫院呢"},{"start":22327.18,"end":22329.18,"text":"醫院呢他的急診"},{"start":22329.18,"end":22331.18,"text":"又是這個這個期壓了"},{"start":22331.18,"end":22333.18,"text":"所以我還是要提醒"},{"start":22333.18,"end":22335.18,"text":"這個部分必須"},{"start":22335.18,"end":22337.18,"text":"既然我們已經定出了8月"},{"start":22337.18,"end":22339.18,"text":"下個月中或者是底"},{"start":22339.88,"end":22341.88,"text":"我們看看這個數字"},{"start":22342.02,"end":22344.02,"text":"5萬人這個救診人數"},{"start":22344.02,"end":22346.02,"text":"他這個一定會擠爆了"},{"start":22346.02,"end":22348.02,"text":"所以務必一定要全面啟動"},{"start":22348.02,"end":22349.02,"text":"去做好準備"},{"start":22350.36,"end":22352.36,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":22352.36,"end":22354.36,"text":"確實這個因為這個抗病毒的"},{"start":22354.36,"end":22356.36,"text":"要在早期投藥效果才會好"},{"start":22356.36,"end":22358.36,"text":"所以呢這個就是"},{"start":22358.36,"end":22360.36,"text":"希望這個比較高風險的"},{"start":22360.36,"end":22362.36,"text":"剛剛提到的有慢性病的"},{"start":22362.36,"end":22364.36,"text":"年紀大的呢"},{"start":22364.36,"end":22366.36,"text":"那麼有症狀趕快就醫"},{"start":22366.36,"end":22368.36,"text":"然後有篩檢我們也有快篩"},{"start":22368.36,"end":22370.36,"text":"你在醫療體系裡"},{"start":22370.36,"end":22372.36,"text":"你可以快篩快治"},{"start":22372.36,"end":22374.36,"text":"然後就可以給抗病毒的藥"},{"start":22374.36,"end":22376.36,"text":"就可以降低那個重症的病患"},{"start":22376.36,"end":22378.36,"text":"所以要全面的去啟動防堵起來"},{"start":22378.36,"end":22380.36,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":22382.76,"end":22384.76,"text":"從4月份開始"},{"start":22384.76,"end":22386.76,"text":"一直到所謂的6月30"},{"start":22386.76,"end":22388.76,"text":"一直到7月1號開始"},{"start":22388.76,"end":22390.76,"text":"一直到現在"},{"start":22390.59,"end":22392.59,"text":"到底人民吃下了多少"},{"start":22393.86,"end":22395.86,"text":"這油是毒的"},{"start":22397.02,"end":22399.02,"text":"到現在政府說不清楚"},{"start":22399.47,"end":22401.47,"text":"說不清楚"},{"start":22401.47,"end":22403.47,"text":"有告訴我們預防性下降"},{"start":22403.47,"end":22405.47,"text":"就是成奴"},{"start":22405.47,"end":22407.47,"text":"學校的部分"},{"start":22407.47,"end":22409.47,"text":"從500多手800多手到1300多手"},{"start":22409.47,"end":22411.47,"text":"也就是說我預防性下降"},{"start":22413.34,"end":22415.34,"text":"就如此告訴我們"},{"start":22415.34,"end":22417.34,"text":"但是民眾要知道的是什麼"},{"start":22417.34,"end":22419.34,"text":"我到底吃下的油"},{"start":22419.34,"end":22421.34,"text":"有沒有毒"},{"start":22420.71,"end":22422.71,"text":"政府可不可以告訴我這個"},{"start":22422.71,"end":22424.71,"text":"好 跟委員說明"},{"start":22424.71,"end":22426.71,"text":"我們都有發佈"},{"start":22426.71,"end":22428.71,"text":"這個相關的油品的品項"},{"start":22428.71,"end":22430.71,"text":"他的產品的品項"},{"start":22430.71,"end":22432.71,"text":"我們都在我們網路上有公告"},{"start":22432.71,"end":22434.71,"text":"那目前就是那7批"},{"start":22434.71,"end":22436.71,"text":"所以7批我們都詳細的"},{"start":22436.71,"end":22438.71,"text":"把他所有的"},{"start":22438.71,"end":22440.71,"text":"製造的日期跟他的品項的名稱"},{"start":22440.71,"end":22442.71,"text":"公佈在食藥署的網頁"},{"start":22442.71,"end":22444.71,"text":"大家可以查詢"},{"start":22444.71,"end":22446.71,"text":"部長 我們討論過"},{"start":22446.71,"end":22448.71,"text":"無數次"},{"start":22448.71,"end":22450.71,"text":"為什麼到現在民眾不清楚"},{"start":22451.05,"end":22453.05,"text":"所以我們繼續來討論"},{"start":22453.05,"end":22455.05,"text":"發生的事情我們要知道"},{"start":22455.05,"end":22457.05,"text":"他的原因在哪裡"},{"start":22457.05,"end":22459.05,"text":"我們要怎麼樣去解決之"},{"start":22459.05,"end":22461.05,"text":"所以現在我們要修法"},{"start":22461.05,"end":22463.05,"text":"我們就針對修法來說"},{"start":22463.05,"end":22465.05,"text":"那麼你修法不能"},{"start":22465.05,"end":22467.05,"text":"只有做半套"},{"start":22467.05,"end":22469.05,"text":"因為我們看到了"},{"start":22469.05,"end":22471.05,"text":"食安法裡頭蓄意隱匿"},{"start":22471.05,"end":22473.05,"text":"危害風險的企業"},{"start":22473.05,"end":22475.05,"text":"到目前為止裁罰上限"},{"start":22475.05,"end":22477.05,"text":"他這個蓄意的"},{"start":22477.05,"end":22479.05,"text":"只有300萬"},{"start":22478.88,"end":22480.88,"text":"那像這樣子的"},{"start":22480.88,"end":22482.88,"text":"壟斷性的代工大廠"},{"start":22483.89,"end":22485.89,"text":"這300萬對他們來講"},{"start":22485.89,"end":22487.89,"text":"根本是獲利成本"},{"start":22487.89,"end":22489.89,"text":"簡直是罰不怕"},{"start":22490.64,"end":22492.64,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":22493.07,"end":22495.07,"text":"你說我屁有問題"},{"start":22496.45,"end":22498.45,"text":"第六批還是有問題"},{"start":22498.45,"end":22500.45,"text":"你們出來才願意"},{"start":22500.45,"end":22502.45,"text":"針對第六批來道歉"},{"start":22503.05,"end":22505.05,"text":"所以就是陳如剛剛所說的"},{"start":22505.05,"end":22507.05,"text":"這個樣態目前的法"},{"start":22507.05,"end":22509.05,"text":"是沒有辦法去應對"},{"start":22509.05,"end":22511.05,"text":"所產生的困難跟情境"},{"start":22511.05,"end":22513.05,"text":"是不是"},{"start":22513.05,"end":22515.05,"text":"好這一個對"},{"start":22515.05,"end":22517.05,"text":"所以我要請教明知道有毒"},{"start":22517.05,"end":22519.05,"text":"但是選擇隱匿的行為"},{"start":22519.05,"end":22521.05,"text":"你這一次的修法"},{"start":22521.05,"end":22523.05,"text":"是不是應該要加重法冊"},{"start":22523.05,"end":22525.05,"text":"除此之外你應該要將"},{"start":22525.05,"end":22527.05,"text":"納入立德末路"},{"start":22527.05,"end":22529.05,"text":"有沒有包括這一點"},{"start":22529.05,"end":22531.05,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":22531.05,"end":22533.05,"text":"這個非常樂意跟委員來討論"},{"start":22533.05,"end":22535.05,"text":"這一次的修法"},{"start":22535.05,"end":22537.05,"text":"那麼在這一次的事件裡面"},{"start":22537.05,"end":22539.05,"text":"因為隱匿延遲通報"},{"start":22539.05,"end":22541.05,"text":"才讓我們沒有辦法"},{"start":22541.05,"end":22543.05,"text":"即時把這些油回收"},{"start":22543.05,"end":22545.05,"text":"所以這個是最大二級"},{"start":22545.05,"end":22547.05,"text":"就是這一次最重要的"},{"start":22547.05,"end":22549.05,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":22548.73,"end":22550.73,"text":"剛剛您這邊提到的"},{"start":22550.73,"end":22552.73,"text":"只有三百萬太低"},{"start":22552.73,"end":22554.73,"text":"所以我們現在的草案把它提到三千萬"},{"start":22554.73,"end":22556.73,"text":"這個是隱匿延遲通報的部分"},{"start":22556.73,"end":22558.73,"text":"由三百萬"},{"start":22558.73,"end":22560.73,"text":"有法來成為三千萬"},{"start":22560.73,"end":22562.73,"text":"對我們把它提高"},{"start":22562.73,"end":22564.73,"text":"接下來呢"},{"start":22564.73,"end":22566.73,"text":"那麼當然這個強化他的"},{"start":22566.73,"end":22568.73,"text":"通報義務也是有的"},{"start":22568.73,"end":22570.73,"text":"因為這一次的檢驗有的是"},{"start":22570.73,"end":22572.73,"text":"立德末路的這一塊"},{"start":22572.73,"end":22574.73,"text":"立德末路現在已經有"},{"start":22574.73,"end":22576.73,"text":"現在因為他有刑事罪"},{"start":22576.73,"end":22578.73,"text":"他這個還有刑事罪的"},{"start":22578.73,"end":22580.73,"text":"他就會有立德末路"},{"start":22580.73,"end":22582.73,"text":"立德末路一定要納入"},{"start":22582.73,"end":22584.73,"text":"而且一定要執行執"},{"start":22584.73,"end":22586.73,"text":"目前就是有刑事責任的"},{"start":22586.73,"end":22588.73,"text":"接下來請說明"},{"start":22588.73,"end":22590.73,"text":"那當然還有的就是"},{"start":22590.73,"end":22592.73,"text":"要避免他脫禪"},{"start":22592.69,"end":22594.69,"text":"你罰了之後他脫禪之後"},{"start":22594.69,"end":22596.69,"text":"財產沒有給他"},{"start":22596.69,"end":22598.69,"text":"先保全下來的話"},{"start":22598.69,"end":22600.69,"text":"這個也沒有用"},{"start":22600.69,"end":22602.69,"text":"所以這個修法"},{"start":22602.69,"end":22604.69,"text":"我們也把它納進去"},{"start":22604.69,"end":22606.69,"text":"我們會有假扣押"},{"start":22606.69,"end":22608.69,"text":"所以我們會在這次修法裡面"},{"start":22608.69,"end":22610.69,"text":"也把它明確入法"},{"start":22610.69,"end":22612.69,"text":"那我們行政法的部分"},{"start":22612.69,"end":22614.69,"text":"也搭配假扣押"},{"start":22614.4,"end":22616.4,"text":"所謂的修法不能只做半套"},{"start":22616.4,"end":22618.4,"text":"也就是我們針對吹哨者的"},{"start":22618.4,"end":22620.4,"text":"保護法的制度化"},{"start":22620.4,"end":22622.4,"text":"您的看法呢"},{"start":22624.01,"end":22626.01,"text":"吹哨者在我們目前的制度裡面"},{"start":22626.01,"end":22628.01,"text":"是有的"},{"start":22628.01,"end":22630.01,"text":"但是如果你是應該"},{"start":22630.01,"end":22632.01,"text":"就要通報"},{"start":22632.01,"end":22634.01,"text":"像這次南橋依法你就是要通報"},{"start":22634.01,"end":22636.01,"text":"那你盡都延遲通報了"},{"start":22636.01,"end":22638.01,"text":"也沒有什麼叫做"},{"start":22638.01,"end":22640.01,"text":"保護吹哨者"},{"start":22640.01,"end":22642.01,"text":"吹哨者不是義務通報人"},{"start":22642.01,"end":22644.01,"text":"但是他願意通報"},{"start":22644.01,"end":22646.01,"text":"給主管機關"},{"start":22646.01,"end":22648.01,"text":"那麼這個就是符合吹哨者的保護"},{"start":22648.01,"end":22650.01,"text":"在目前的食安法裡面有"},{"start":22650.01,"end":22652.01,"text":"因為我們有要求"},{"start":22652.01,"end":22654.01,"text":"如果他的員工他去舉報"},{"start":22654.01,"end":22656.01,"text":"那他還要被放掉"},{"start":22656.01,"end":22658.01,"text":"那是不公平的"},{"start":22658.01,"end":22660.01,"text":"所以這一定要保護吹哨法"},{"start":22660.01,"end":22662.01,"text":"讓他法制化"},{"start":22662.01,"end":22664.01,"text":"這一定要納入"},{"start":22664.01,"end":22666.01,"text":"你才可以每一個管道都會暢通"},{"start":22666.01,"end":22668.01,"text":"對就是排除義務通報人"},{"start":22668.01,"end":22670.01,"text":"義務通報人是沒有所謂的"},{"start":22670.01,"end":22672.01,"text":"吹哨者保護的"},{"start":22672.01,"end":22674.01,"text":"接下來人家要跟你討論"},{"start":22674.01,"end":22676.01,"text":"那發生的這個事情"},{"start":22676.01,"end":22678.01,"text":"下游的廠商"},{"start":22678.01,"end":22680.01,"text":"幾乎一千三百家以上"},{"start":22680.01,"end":22682.01,"text":"就像每一個地方"},{"start":22682.01,"end":22684.01,"text":"包括我個人的選區"},{"start":22684.01,"end":22686.01,"text":"我們有烘焙房"},{"start":22686.01,"end":22688.01,"text":"我們有小磁碳"},{"start":22688.01,"end":22690.01,"text":"那因為這樣子"},{"start":22690.01,"end":22692.01,"text":"而導致他的庫存"},{"start":22692.01,"end":22694.01,"text":"通通必須要預防性的下降"},{"start":22694.01,"end":22696.01,"text":"他的庫存也要被銷毀"},{"start":22696.01,"end":22698.01,"text":"他的營收當然直接的就斷頭"},{"start":22699.83,"end":22701.83,"text":"這些的損失"},{"start":22701.83,"end":22703.83,"text":"中小企業的損失"},{"start":22703.83,"end":22705.83,"text":"他不能是成為"},{"start":22705.83,"end":22707.83,"text":"他已經成為被動的受害者"},{"start":22707.83,"end":22709.83,"text":"那這些被動的受害者"},{"start":22709.83,"end":22711.83,"text":"要怎麼辦"},{"start":22712.7,"end":22714.7,"text":"要怎麼辦你們怎麼處理"},{"start":22714.7,"end":22716.7,"text":"就像本席上次跟你討論的"},{"start":22716.7,"end":22718.7,"text":"我這個有 我有發票"},{"start":22718.7,"end":22720.7,"text":"你說可以這個退"},{"start":22720.7,"end":22722.7,"text":"沒有發票怎麼辦"},{"start":22722.7,"end":22724.7,"text":"到現在你們還沒有研究出來"},{"start":22724.7,"end":22726.7,"text":"跟現在本席第二個議題"},{"start":22726.7,"end":22728.7,"text":"這些下游的"},{"start":22728.7,"end":22730.7,"text":"被動式的受害者"},{"start":22730.7,"end":22732.7,"text":"他要怎麼辦"},{"start":22732.7,"end":22734.7,"text":"而且他幾乎都是在最底層的"},{"start":22734.7,"end":22736.7,"text":"最辛苦的這些人怎麼辦"},{"start":22736.7,"end":22738.7,"text":"我想這個分三段"},{"start":22738.7,"end":22740.7,"text":"跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":22740.7,"end":22742.7,"text":"如果是民眾的部分"},{"start":22742.7,"end":22744.7,"text":"那麼在我們現在有啟動"},{"start":22744.7,"end":22746.7,"text":"對於這個退費退貨的協助"},{"start":22746.7,"end":22748.7,"text":"那麼在我們的食安基金裡面"},{"start":22748.7,"end":22752.7,"text":"也能夠協助這個團體訴訟的一些費用"},{"start":22752.7,"end":22754.7,"text":"所以這個是對"},{"start":22754.7,"end":22756.7,"text":"這個消費者的部分"},{"start":22756.7,"end":22758.7,"text":"那第二個呢是"},{"start":22758.7,"end":22760.7,"text":"如果你是直接那麼對應"},{"start":22760.7,"end":22762.7,"text":"這個有問題的產品的"},{"start":22762.7,"end":22764.7,"text":"那球場賠償的部分"},{"start":22764.7,"end":22766.7,"text":"當然是應該由加害者來賠償"},{"start":22766.7,"end":22768.7,"text":"也不應該由政府來賠"},{"start":22768.7,"end":22770.7,"text":"也不應該由政府來賠"},{"start":22770.7,"end":22772.7,"text":"那麼另外有一套是我們現在"},{"start":22772.7,"end":22774.7,"text":"在食安法裡面現在在討論的"},{"start":22774.7,"end":22776.7,"text":"就是配合政府的政策"},{"start":22776.7,"end":22778.7,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":22778.7,"end":22780.7,"text":"但是他基本上是合格的產品"},{"start":22781.84,"end":22783.84,"text":"像這一次我們是為了要"},{"start":22783.84,"end":22785.84,"text":"保護這個所有的食安"},{"start":22785.84,"end":22787.84,"text":"所以我們擴大預防性下架"},{"start":22787.84,"end":22789.84,"text":"讓4到6月"},{"start":22789.84,"end":22791.84,"text":"後來檢驗完之後"},{"start":22791.84,"end":22793.84,"text":"那麼再重新上架"},{"start":22793.84,"end":22795.84,"text":"如果因為是配合政府的預防性的"},{"start":22795.84,"end":22797.84,"text":"下架而有的損失"},{"start":22797.84,"end":22799.84,"text":"我們可以用食安基金來研議"},{"start":22799.84,"end":22801.84,"text":"來給他補助"},{"start":22801.84,"end":22803.84,"text":"這個現在"},{"start":22803.84,"end":22805.84,"text":"因為針對這些因為供應鏈斷電"},{"start":22805.84,"end":22807.84,"text":"而遭受到他的產業"},{"start":22807.84,"end":22809.84,"text":"他的經濟損害的業者"},{"start":22809.84,"end":22811.84,"text":"應該要提出具體的緊急補償"},{"start":22811.84,"end":22813.84,"text":"以及紓困的支持方案"},{"start":22813.84,"end":22815.84,"text":"協助他們度過這個難關"},{"start":22815.84,"end":22817.84,"text":"他是被動的受害"},{"start":22817.84,"end":22819.84,"text":"在這段期間我們都有協調"},{"start":22819.84,"end":22821.84,"text":"經濟部有協助去協調"},{"start":22821.84,"end":22823.84,"text":"這個增加供應"},{"start":22823.84,"end":22825.84,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":22825.84,"end":22827.84,"text":"這個沙拉油的"},{"start":22827.84,"end":22829.84,"text":"大多數沙拉油的供應是沒有問題"},{"start":22829.84,"end":22831.84,"text":"不是增加供應的問題"},{"start":22831.84,"end":22833.84,"text":"而是我已經因為"},{"start":22834.59,"end":22836.59,"text":"這個供應鏈的壟斷"},{"start":22836.59,"end":22838.59,"text":"而遭受到"},{"start":22838.59,"end":22840.59,"text":"經濟損失的這些業者"},{"start":22841.96,"end":22843.96,"text":"那你們應該要提出協助的方案出來"},{"start":22843.96,"end":22845.96,"text":"你務必一定要去做"},{"start":22845.96,"end":22847.96,"text":"接下來本期要跟你討論的"},{"start":22847.96,"end":22849.96,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":22849.96,"end":22851.96,"text":"你這個三級品管的部分"},{"start":22851.96,"end":22853.96,"text":"我要具體"},{"start":22856.21,"end":22858.21,"text":"來建議"},{"start":22857.59,"end":22859.59,"text":"不要讓三級毒品的一個品管"},{"start":22859.59,"end":22861.59,"text":"你只是淪為口號"},{"start":22862.37,"end":22864.37,"text":"因為我們要等你"},{"start":22866.15,"end":22868.15,"text":"政府在以色列方面"},{"start":22868.15,"end":22870.15,"text":"跟擠牙膏一樣"},{"start":22870.15,"end":22872.15,"text":"這些不行 那些不行"},{"start":22872.15,"end":22874.15,"text":"讓民眾看得密密麻麻"},{"start":22874.15,"end":22876.15,"text":"那應該你是要有數位系統"},{"start":22876.15,"end":22880.15,"text":"跟這個關鍵節點的一個監管"},{"start":22880.15,"end":22882.15,"text":"你要真正的上線"},{"start":22882.15,"end":22884.15,"text":"讓民眾很清楚的可以知道"},{"start":22884.15,"end":22886.15,"text":"到底現在是怎麼一回事"},{"start":22886.15,"end":22888.15,"text":"我要買什麼 我吃下了有沒有問題"},{"start":22889.28,"end":22891.28,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":22891.28,"end":22893.28,"text":"其實會看到密密麻麻"},{"start":22893.28,"end":22895.28,"text":"就是因為我們之前這個食品"},{"start":22895.28,"end":22897.28,"text":"可以把製造端馬上抓到"},{"start":22897.28,"end":22899.28,"text":"所以在一開始才有這麼多的產品"},{"start":22899.28,"end":22901.28,"text":"看起來密密麻麻"},{"start":22901.28,"end":22903.28,"text":"這個也是過去建構起來的"},{"start":22903.28,"end":22905.28,"text":"系統的功能"},{"start":22905.28,"end":22909.28,"text":"現在要擴大到販售業"},{"start":22909.28,"end":22911.28,"text":"我們之前是著重在製造業"},{"start":22911.28,"end":22913.28,"text":"那麼接下來可能販售業"},{"start":22913.28,"end":22915.28,"text":"也要納進來"},{"start":22915.28,"end":22917.28,"text":"所以這個是未來我們"},{"start":22917.28,"end":22919.28,"text":"要一致的"},{"start":22919.28,"end":22921.28,"text":"數位系統你要立即啟動"},{"start":22921.28,"end":22923.28,"text":"還不是未來"},{"start":22923.28,"end":22925.28,"text":"現在就要趕快去做"},{"start":22925.28,"end":22927.28,"text":"因為這個廠商更多了"},{"start":22927.28,"end":22929.28,"text":"數位系統的一個啟動"},{"start":22929.28,"end":22931.28,"text":"是非常的重要"},{"start":22931.28,"end":22933.28,"text":"因為關鍵節點的監管"},{"start":22933.28,"end":22935.28,"text":"我們也會跟財政部大家來討論"},{"start":22935.28,"end":22937.28,"text":"透過電子發票的方式來做"},{"start":22938.35,"end":22940.35,"text":"業者更多啦"},{"start":22940.35,"end":22942.35,"text":"不是現在幾萬家而已"},{"start":22942.05,"end":22944.05,"text":"所以"},{"start":22943.37,"end":22945.37,"text":"部長數位數位圓"},{"start":22946.1,"end":22948.1,"text":"數位數位圓非常非常的重要"},{"start":22948.1,"end":22950.1,"text":"因為民眾看到的"},{"start":22950.1,"end":22952.1,"text":"就跟我們所說的以色列裡頭的清單"},{"start":22952.1,"end":22954.1,"text":"那現在你也同意本期的看法"},{"start":22954.1,"end":22956.1,"text":"我們要怎麼樣在結盟業者等"},{"start":22956.1,"end":22958.1,"text":"怎麼樣去精進這個數位化"},{"start":22958.1,"end":22960.1,"text":"我們一定要建立一個數位化"},{"start":22960.1,"end":22962.1,"text":"即使可查詢的"},{"start":22962.1,"end":22964.1,"text":"食安預警之循環"},{"start":22964.1,"end":22966.1,"text":"這個很重要"},{"start":22966.1,"end":22968.1,"text":"可不可以做得到"},{"start":22968.1,"end":22970.1,"text":"我們非常贊同委員的這個看法"},{"start":22970.1,"end":22972.1,"text":"也是我們現在努力的方向"},{"start":22972.1,"end":22974.1,"text":"所以也請委員支持我們"},{"start":22974.1,"end":22976.1,"text":"你趕快做你現在發生問題了"},{"start":22976.1,"end":22978.1,"text":"你還要未來你還要立即啟動"},{"start":22978.1,"end":22980.1,"text":"去做整合"},{"start":22980.1,"end":22982.1,"text":"所以我們也需要有預算來支持這個"},{"start":22982.1,"end":22984.1,"text":"第二個缺少者保護法"},{"start":22984.1,"end":22986.1,"text":"剛剛本席所說的"},{"start":22986.1,"end":22988.1,"text":"你們也一定要納入在"},{"start":22988.1,"end":22990.1,"text":"保護這些人"},{"start":22990.1,"end":22992.1,"text":"人家才敢給你舉法"},{"start":22992.1,"end":22994.1,"text":"不然你永遠就一句話隱匿"},{"start":22994.1,"end":22996.1,"text":"所以我沒辦法"},{"start":22996.1,"end":22998.1,"text":"這不是推脫支持"},{"start":22998.1,"end":23000.1,"text":"政府的責任就是有政府的責任"},{"start":23000.1,"end":23002.1,"text":"所以我要再一次的強調"},{"start":23002.1,"end":23004.1,"text":"也就是說發生了這麼重大的事情"},{"start":23004.1,"end":23006.1,"text":"不管在"},{"start":23006.1,"end":23008.1,"text":"這個救急的部分"},{"start":23008.1,"end":23010.1,"text":"要怎麼做"},{"start":23010.1,"end":23012.1,"text":"不管在未來"},{"start":23013.9,"end":23015.9,"text":"這個救本的部分"},{"start":23015.9,"end":23017.9,"text":"要怎麼樣讓民眾能夠安心"},{"start":23017.9,"end":23019.9,"text":"我相信這個是民眾所期待的"},{"start":23019.9,"end":23021.9,"text":"剛剛"},{"start":23021.9,"end":23023.9,"text":"我也去看了"},{"start":23023.9,"end":23025.9,"text":"我們總統府的這個"},{"start":23025.9,"end":23027.9,"text":"這幾個孩子"},{"start":23027.9,"end":23029.9,"text":"大家為了這個食安願意各種方式"},{"start":23029.9,"end":23031.9,"text":"去讓政府看到"},{"start":23031.9,"end":23033.9,"text":"我們的需求是什麼"},{"start":23033.9,"end":23035.9,"text":"你會去看看他們"},{"start":23035.9,"end":23037.9,"text":"我想我們有很多的"},{"start":23037.9,"end":23039.9,"text":"表達的方式跟溝通的方式"},{"start":23039.9,"end":23041.9,"text":"那麼"},{"start":23041.9,"end":23043.9,"text":"還是保重身體"},{"start":23048.02,"end":23050.02,"text":"謝謝楊強英委員的諮詢"},{"start":23050.02,"end":23052.02,"text":"接下來請陳寅委員諮詢"},{"start":23073.49,"end":23075.49,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":23108.71,"end":23110.71,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":23110.71,"end":23112.71,"text":"麻煩請"},{"start":23112.23,"end":23114.23,"text":"衛福部時部長跟食藥署"},{"start":23114.23,"end":23116.23,"text":"江署長還有農業部的代表"},{"start":23116.23,"end":23118.23,"text":"請以上官員"},{"start":23119.79,"end":23121.79,"text":"這位也好"},{"start":23121.01,"end":23123.01,"text":"部長好"},{"start":23123.05,"end":23125.05,"text":"大家好"},{"start":23125.05,"end":23127.05,"text":"那我們今天討論的是"},{"start":23127.05,"end":23129.05,"text":"蘋果的這個除蟲用藥"},{"start":23129.05,"end":23131.05,"text":"分譜泥的這個許可殘留標準"},{"start":23131.05,"end":23133.05,"text":"那首先呢"},{"start":23133.05,"end":23135.05,"text":"就是台灣農藥"},{"start":23135.05,"end":23137.05,"text":"如果名稱帶有泥這個字的"},{"start":23137.05,"end":23139.05,"text":"通常大概就是指"},{"start":23139.05,"end":23141.05,"text":"合成除蟲菊精類"},{"start":23141.05,"end":23143.05,"text":"的殺蟲劑"},{"start":23143.05,"end":23145.05,"text":"那常見的有百面泥啊"},{"start":23145.05,"end":23147.05,"text":"塞面泥還有地面泥等等"},{"start":23147.05,"end":23149.05,"text":"這一類的這個農藥效果"},{"start":23149.05,"end":23151.05,"text":"好毒性低"},{"start":23151.05,"end":23153.05,"text":"那接下來這個農田除蟲或居家環境的防蚊蟲"},{"start":23153.05,"end":23155.05,"text":"這樣"},{"start":23155.05,"end":23157.05,"text":"對吧"},{"start":23156.31,"end":23158.31,"text":"委員的這個農藥的知識可能比我高啦"},{"start":23158.31,"end":23160.31,"text":"所以我不敢"},{"start":23160.31,"end":23162.31,"text":"有幫你請農業部的"},{"start":23162.31,"end":23164.31,"text":"農業部"},{"start":23164.31,"end":23166.31,"text":"剛剛講的應該沒有"},{"start":23166.31,"end":23168.31,"text":"大致上是這樣"},{"start":23168.31,"end":23170.31,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":23170.31,"end":23172.31,"text":"那我們這一次的這個爭議"},{"start":23172.31,"end":23174.31,"text":"主要是在這個蘋果的這個"},{"start":23174.31,"end":23176.31,"text":"農藥殘留容許量的標準的分類"},{"start":23176.31,"end":23178.31,"text":"那我們的法規呢"},{"start":23178.31,"end":23180.31,"text":"不同工效的農藥在不同的蔬果"},{"start":23180.31,"end":23182.31,"text":"標準也是不一樣的"},{"start":23182.31,"end":23184.31,"text":"那有些蔬果呢在特定的這個農藥"},{"start":23184.31,"end":23186.31,"text":"不一定"},{"start":23186.31,"end":23188.31,"text":"它不一定有這個單獨的容許標準"},{"start":23188.31,"end":23190.31,"text":"也因此"},{"start":23190.31,"end":23192.31,"text":"就是說在今年的4月21日"},{"start":23192.31,"end":23194.31,"text":"新修訂的這個農藥殘留容許量"},{"start":23194.31,"end":23196.31,"text":"標準表裡面呢"},{"start":23196.31,"end":23198.31,"text":"蘋果本來是屬於其他"},{"start":23198.31,"end":23200.31,"text":"乾果類是用標準為0.5"},{"start":23200.31,"end":23202.31,"text":"ppm結果是在"},{"start":23202.31,"end":23204.31,"text":"修訂之後呢又單獨將"},{"start":23204.31,"end":23206.31,"text":"蘋果列為一項"},{"start":23206.31,"end":23208.31,"text":"標準變成3ppm那我想要請教"},{"start":23208.31,"end":23210.31,"text":"署長喔"},{"start":23210.31,"end":23212.31,"text":"您之前是台大醫學院"},{"start":23212.31,"end":23214.31,"text":"醫師 醫師自己學研究所的教授"},{"start":23214.31,"end":23216.31,"text":"然後您又是這個"},{"start":23216.31,"end":23218.31,"text":"腎臟科的醫師喔"},{"start":23218.31,"end":23220.31,"text":"那以前喔在這個門診"},{"start":23220.31,"end":23222.31,"text":"就是說在這個門診當中"},{"start":23222.31,"end":23224.31,"text":"您有沒有看過這個芬普寧中毒的病人"},{"start":23225.84,"end":23227.84,"text":"報告委員是沒有預估"},{"start":23227.84,"end":23229.84,"text":"那我再請教一下喔"},{"start":23229.84,"end":23231.84,"text":"他的這個毒性"},{"start":23231.84,"end":23233.84,"text":"很大嗎"},{"start":23233.84,"end":23235.84,"text":"就是說在人體"},{"start":23235.84,"end":23237.84,"text":"體內代謝的速度如何"},{"start":23237.84,"end":23239.84,"text":"我們一天大概就是容許量"},{"start":23239.84,"end":23241.84,"text":"是多少"},{"start":23241.84,"end":23243.84,"text":"比較實際換算一下就是說"},{"start":23243.84,"end":23245.84,"text":"比如說要在多久時間"},{"start":23245.84,"end":23247.84,"text":"內服用多少劑量"},{"start":23247.84,"end":23249.84,"text":"他會中毒"},{"start":23251.06,"end":23253.06,"text":"報告委員這個農藥的部分"},{"start":23253.06,"end":23255.06,"text":"我們都會針對他的激性中毒"},{"start":23255.06,"end":23257.06,"text":"跟我們一般的慢性長期"},{"start":23257.06,"end":23259.06,"text":"慢性長期我們的容許量"},{"start":23259.06,"end":23261.06,"text":"我們是每天吃"},{"start":23261.06,"end":23263.06,"text":"隨時吃 吃一輩子"},{"start":23263.06,"end":23265.06,"text":"那我們算出芬普寧這一個"},{"start":23265.06,"end":23267.06,"text":"蘋果訂出來的劑量"},{"start":23267.06,"end":23269.06,"text":"大概是我們可以接受的"},{"start":23269.06,"end":23271.06,"text":"大概30%還不到"},{"start":23271.06,"end":23273.06,"text":"40%所以在整體的"},{"start":23273.06,"end":23275.06,"text":"風險評估底下我們認為"},{"start":23275.06,"end":23277.06,"text":"他是在這個範圍內"},{"start":23277.06,"end":23279.06,"text":"是可接受的那這樣子"},{"start":23279.06,"end":23281.06,"text":"所以蘋果基準也是在"},{"start":23281.06,"end":23283.06,"text":"食品安全風險評估"},{"start":23283.06,"end":23285.06,"text":"諮議會裡面的委員都確認過"},{"start":23285.06,"end":23287.06,"text":"那前端實際上在農業部的"},{"start":23287.06,"end":23289.06,"text":"農藥試驗所裡面"},{"start":23289.06,"end":23291.06,"text":"協助做這個以"},{"start":23291.06,"end":23293.06,"text":"國際的OECD的"},{"start":23293.06,"end":23295.06,"text":"計算方式得到的一個"},{"start":23295.06,"end":23297.06,"text":"公式確立下來"},{"start":23297.06,"end":23299.06,"text":"這公式一定是前端有非常"},{"start":23299.06,"end":23301.06,"text":"好的所謂的優良的"},{"start":23301.06,"end":23303.06,"text":"農業的"},{"start":23303.44,"end":23305.44,"text":"Practice才能夠去進入"},{"start":23305.44,"end":23307.44,"text":"我們的計算公式"},{"start":23307.44,"end":23309.44,"text":"所以這個算出來也搭配了"},{"start":23309.44,"end":23311.44,"text":"我們的飲食的叫食物菜籃"},{"start":23311.44,"end":23313.44,"text":"加上我們的田間所以"},{"start":23313.44,"end":23315.44,"text":"綜合考量之後的結果"},{"start":23315.44,"end":23317.44,"text":"當初送來的是5ppm"},{"start":23317.44,"end":23319.44,"text":"我們算完之後"},{"start":23319.44,"end":23321.44,"text":"其實是沒有採納5ppm"},{"start":23321.44,"end":23323.44,"text":"我這樣問好了啦因為您是"},{"start":23323.44,"end":23325.44,"text":"教授又是醫生"},{"start":23325.44,"end":23327.44,"text":"那您講的話"},{"start":23327.44,"end":23329.44,"text":"未必所有的民眾都會在"},{"start":23329.44,"end":23331.44,"text":"第一時間最短的時間都完全"},{"start":23331.44,"end":23333.44,"text":"聽得懂所以我簡單的問"},{"start":23333.44,"end":23335.44,"text":"就是說因為"},{"start":23335.44,"end":23337.44,"text":"我也這樣查詢嘛"},{"start":23337.44,"end":23339.44,"text":"我們講一顆"},{"start":23339.44,"end":23341.44,"text":"這顆蘋果還不算"},{"start":23341.44,"end":23343.44,"text":"太大啦就是差不多中型"},{"start":23343.44,"end":23345.44,"text":"中型的這個蘋果250克"},{"start":23345.44,"end":23347.44,"text":"左右那這個"},{"start":23347.44,"end":23349.44,"text":"分普寧含量3.0ppm"},{"start":23349.44,"end":23351.44,"text":"我如果短時間"},{"start":23351.44,"end":23353.44,"text":"內我要吃多少顆"},{"start":23353.44,"end":23355.44,"text":"我才會這個分普寧中毒"},{"start":23357.56,"end":23359.56,"text":"我們實際上沒有精確的算"},{"start":23359.56,"end":23361.56,"text":"以極限中毒的話"},{"start":23361.56,"end":23363.56,"text":"那可能是要吃幾十顆這個蘋果"},{"start":23363.56,"end":23365.56,"text":"才會有這樣的其實"},{"start":23365.56,"end":23367.56,"text":"上百顆"},{"start":23367.56,"end":23369.56,"text":"其實我查詢了一下啦就是說"},{"start":23369.56,"end":23371.56,"text":"以這樣的標準就是說"},{"start":23371.56,"end":23373.56,"text":"可能要吃到數十公斤"},{"start":23373.56,"end":23375.56,"text":"甚至上百公斤"},{"start":23375.56,"end":23377.56,"text":"就是含超標的這個"},{"start":23377.56,"end":23379.56,"text":"生鮮蔬果而且在短時間"},{"start":23379.56,"end":23381.56,"text":"它才會中毒"},{"start":23381.56,"end":23383.56,"text":"比較會撐死掉"},{"start":23383.56,"end":23385.56,"text":"那比較危險可能不建議這樣吃"},{"start":23385.56,"end":23387.56,"text":"好那我們就換算嘛"},{"start":23387.56,"end":23389.56,"text":"所以我算了一下"},{"start":23389.56,"end":23391.56,"text":"他說達上百公斤的話"},{"start":23391.56,"end":23393.56,"text":"那一百公斤這個250克"},{"start":23393.56,"end":23395.56,"text":"一顆的這個蘋果呢"},{"start":23395.56,"end":23397.56,"text":"大概也要吃到四百"},{"start":23397.56,"end":23399.56,"text":"顆在很短的時間內"},{"start":23399.56,"end":23401.56,"text":"那所以可能還沒中毒"},{"start":23401.56,"end":23403.56,"text":"就已經撐死了"},{"start":23403.56,"end":23405.56,"text":"那接下來"},{"start":23405.56,"end":23407.56,"text":"我要再請教一下"},{"start":23407.56,"end":23409.56,"text":"就是署長就是說"},{"start":23409.56,"end":23411.56,"text":"ppm是"},{"start":23411.56,"end":23413.56,"text":"ppb的多少倍"},{"start":23413.98,"end":23415.98,"text":"這個是千倍"},{"start":23415.98,"end":23417.98,"text":"那是不是這個容許"},{"start":23417.98,"end":23419.98,"text":"標準指定的越低"},{"start":23419.98,"end":23421.98,"text":"那代表對人體的毒性就越大"},{"start":23423.49,"end":23425.49,"text":"所以他比較毒才會這樣子"},{"start":23425.49,"end":23427.49,"text":"那再來我們從這個"},{"start":23427.49,"end":23429.49,"text":"奈米銀的毒理學來看"},{"start":23429.49,"end":23431.49,"text":"就等於是說單位重量的"},{"start":23431.49,"end":23433.49,"text":"這個表面積越大"},{"start":23433.49,"end":23435.49,"text":"它是不是就是毒性會越強"},{"start":23443.64,"end":23445.64,"text":"單位面積的表面積越大"},{"start":23445.64,"end":23447.64,"text":"對"},{"start":23447.64,"end":23449.64,"text":"這個題目有點聽不懂"},{"start":23449.64,"end":23451.64,"text":"但原則上是"},{"start":23451.64,"end":23453.64,"text":"其實就是我這樣講"},{"start":23453.64,"end":23455.64,"text":"就是這樣子"},{"start":23452.87,"end":23454.87,"text":"因為 啊 或者我再換一個比較好了"},{"start":23454.87,"end":23456.87,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":23456.75,"end":23458.75,"text":"你看喔 都一克的話"},{"start":23458.75,"end":23460.75,"text":"這樣的一克跟這樣的一克"},{"start":23460.75,"end":23462.75,"text":"它這個表面積就是它的皮啦"},{"start":23462.75,"end":23464.75,"text":"面積會比較大的意思啦"},{"start":23464.75,"end":23466.75,"text":"是 好所以"},{"start":23466.75,"end":23468.75,"text":"所以我剛剛的問題"},{"start":23468.75,"end":23470.75,"text":"就是這樣子 所以就是說"},{"start":23470.75,"end":23472.75,"text":"單位重量的這個表面積越大"},{"start":23472.75,"end":23474.75,"text":"它的毒性是不是就越強"},{"start":23474.75,"end":23476.75,"text":"好 當然是肯定的嘛"},{"start":23476.75,"end":23478.75,"text":"那所以等於我剛剛講就是"},{"start":23478.75,"end":23480.75,"text":"我剛剛拿了一顆櫻桃"},{"start":23480.75,"end":23482.75,"text":"跟一顆的蘋果嘛"},{"start":23482.75,"end":23484.75,"text":"那一克這個整顆櫻桃"},{"start":23484.75,"end":23486.75,"text":"的表面積它肯定"},{"start":23486.75,"end":23488.75,"text":"肯定就是比這一顆"},{"start":23488.75,"end":23490.75,"text":"蘋果的表面積還要大啊"},{"start":23490.75,"end":23492.75,"text":"你一口就整個皮也都"},{"start":23492.75,"end":23494.75,"text":"吃下去了嘛 好"},{"start":23494.71,"end":23496.71,"text":"那 我查了一下"},{"start":23496.71,"end":23498.71,"text":"你們新的這個標準"},{"start":23498.71,"end":23500.71,"text":"表第86也"},{"start":23500.71,"end":23502.71,"text":"發現櫻桃的"},{"start":23502.71,"end":23504.71,"text":"這個標準是"},{"start":23504.71,"end":23506.71,"text":"3ppm"},{"start":23506.26,"end":23508.26,"text":"那 葡萄呢 我這邊還有葡萄"},{"start":23508.26,"end":23510.26,"text":"這麼小顆 比櫻桃還小的"},{"start":23511.28,"end":23513.28,"text":"好 那我們再跟這個蘋果再比一下"},{"start":23514.82,"end":23516.82,"text":"好"},{"start":23515.73,"end":23517.73,"text":"這麼小的葡萄"},{"start":23517.74,"end":23519.74,"text":"那這個"},{"start":23519.74,"end":23521.74,"text":"葡萄"},{"start":23521.74,"end":23523.74,"text":"葡萄是5ppm"},{"start":23523.74,"end":23525.74,"text":"那農藥一般是"},{"start":23525.74,"end":23527.74,"text":"殘留在果皮上"},{"start":23527.74,"end":23529.74,"text":"所以你們的標準檢驗方法"},{"start":23529.74,"end":23531.74,"text":"只是針對果皮"},{"start":23531.74,"end":23533.74,"text":"去測量"},{"start":23533.74,"end":23535.74,"text":"這個殘留量還是果皮"},{"start":23535.74,"end":23537.74,"text":"跟果肉攪拌均勻"},{"start":23537.74,"end":23539.74,"text":"之後一起測"},{"start":23539.74,"end":23541.74,"text":"這個都是打碎"},{"start":23541.74,"end":23543.74,"text":"好 都打碎嘛"},{"start":23543.74,"end":23545.74,"text":"你們也不用擔心 農業部在旁邊會幫忙"},{"start":23545.74,"end":23547.74,"text":"那如果"},{"start":23547.74,"end":23549.74,"text":"果皮跟果肉"},{"start":23549.74,"end":23551.74,"text":"是一起測的"},{"start":23551.74,"end":23553.74,"text":"那殘留的農藥"},{"start":23553.74,"end":23555.74,"text":"又是只會出現在果皮上面"},{"start":23555.74,"end":23557.74,"text":"一般大部分是這樣"},{"start":23558.61,"end":23560.61,"text":"好 那標準的單位"},{"start":23560.61,"end":23562.61,"text":"又是重量對重量的ppm"},{"start":23562.61,"end":23564.61,"text":"好 那麼"},{"start":23564.61,"end":23566.61,"text":"我剛剛講的"},{"start":23566.61,"end":23568.61,"text":"大顆的蘋果"},{"start":23568.35,"end":23570.35,"text":"跟這個體積小的蘋果"},{"start":23570.79,"end":23572.79,"text":"我這兩顆哪一樣"},{"start":23572.79,"end":23574.79,"text":"比較容易超標"},{"start":23575.92,"end":23577.92,"text":"正常推理的話"},{"start":23577.8,"end":23579.8,"text":"看他表面積嗎"},{"start":23581.31,"end":23583.31,"text":"這個你不要害怕啦"},{"start":23583.31,"end":23585.31,"text":"你們不要很緊張"},{"start":23585.31,"end":23587.31,"text":"我沒有要害你們 其實很簡單"},{"start":23587.31,"end":23589.31,"text":"剛剛就是講了嘛 這個表面積"},{"start":23589.31,"end":23591.31,"text":"這個就是說你越小顆"},{"start":23591.31,"end":23593.31,"text":"表面積它比例上"},{"start":23593.31,"end":23595.31,"text":"比例上會越大 所以原理"},{"start":23595.31,"end":23597.31,"text":"是這樣子"},{"start":23599.31,"end":23601.31,"text":"所以大小顆比較起來"},{"start":23601.31,"end":23603.31,"text":"體積小的蘋果樣本"},{"start":23603.31,"end":23605.31,"text":"其實"},{"start":23604.38,"end":23606.38,"text":"是比較容易超標啦"},{"start":23606.38,"end":23608.38,"text":"正常這樣換算起來是這樣"},{"start":23608.38,"end":23610.38,"text":"所以我再回到"},{"start":23610.38,"end":23612.38,"text":"早上一開始我們會議的時候"},{"start":23612.38,"end":23614.38,"text":"我們有一群"},{"start":23614.38,"end":23616.38,"text":"坐在中央這個中間"},{"start":23616.38,"end":23618.38,"text":"位置的那些委員們 不是養藥委員"},{"start":23620.42,"end":23622.42,"text":"那個 那我們早上"},{"start":23622.42,"end":23624.42,"text":"坐在那一群的 坐中間那一群"},{"start":23624.42,"end":23626.42,"text":"大部分是"},{"start":23626.42,"end":23628.42,"text":"就是前兩案的提案委員"},{"start":23628.42,"end":23630.42,"text":"那因為"},{"start":23630.42,"end":23632.42,"text":"我們早上在爭論不休的是"},{"start":23632.42,"end":23634.42,"text":"因為蘋果從0.5ppm"},{"start":23635.48,"end":23637.48,"text":"改到3ppm"},{"start":23637.77,"end":23639.77,"text":"他們叫毒蘋果"},{"start":23639.8,"end":23641.8,"text":"好 那我現在講就是說"},{"start":23641.8,"end":23643.8,"text":"那如果"},{"start":23643.58,"end":23645.58,"text":"3.0是毒蘋果"},{"start":23645.75,"end":23647.75,"text":"那我剛剛說的 葡萄"},{"start":23648.72,"end":23650.72,"text":"我們葡萄是5.0ppm"},{"start":23651.29,"end":23653.29,"text":"但是這個葡萄也要叫毒葡萄"},{"start":23653.29,"end":23655.29,"text":"那我們再來看一下喔"},{"start":23655.29,"end":23657.29,"text":"那如果"},{"start":23657.29,"end":23659.29,"text":"再換一下我們這個櫻桃"},{"start":23659.29,"end":23661.29,"text":"櫻桃是3.0ppm"},{"start":23661.89,"end":23663.89,"text":"一樣的 那是不是這個櫻桃"},{"start":23663.89,"end":23665.89,"text":"我們應該沒有特別去動"},{"start":23665.89,"end":23667.89,"text":"剛剛那些葡萄什麼的吧"},{"start":23667.89,"end":23669.89,"text":"對 櫻桃要往下"},{"start":23669.89,"end":23671.89,"text":"那所以"},{"start":23671.89,"end":23673.89,"text":"已經降到3.0ppm"},{"start":23673.89,"end":23675.89,"text":"是不是這個櫻桃也叫毒櫻桃呢"},{"start":23676.74,"end":23678.74,"text":"好 那再來"},{"start":23678.74,"end":23680.74,"text":"我們再來看檸檬"},{"start":23680.74,"end":23682.74,"text":"雖然從5.0ppm降到2.0ppm"},{"start":23683.91,"end":23685.91,"text":"但按照他們超過0.5ppm"},{"start":23685.91,"end":23687.91,"text":"就叫毒蘋果的話"},{"start":23687.91,"end":23689.91,"text":"那這個也叫毒檸檬囉"},{"start":23689.91,"end":23691.91,"text":"對不對"},{"start":23691.4,"end":23693.4,"text":"所以"},{"start":23692.73,"end":23694.73,"text":"除了這個 我們還有"},{"start":23694.73,"end":23696.73,"text":"2.0的流程 也叫毒流程嗎"},{"start":23697.91,"end":23699.91,"text":"然後我們的芒果"},{"start":23700.24,"end":23702.24,"text":"比0.5多一點點"},{"start":23702.24,"end":23704.24,"text":"1.0 也是超過0.5"},{"start":23704.24,"end":23706.24,"text":"按照早上那個標準 也叫毒芒果囉"},{"start":23707.28,"end":23709.28,"text":"好"},{"start":23708.24,"end":23710.24,"text":"所以這樣子的講法"},{"start":23710.99,"end":23712.99,"text":"用詞 其實"},{"start":23712.99,"end":23714.99,"text":"完全沒有去考量"},{"start":23714.99,"end":23716.99,"text":"我們國人每日的這個"},{"start":23716.99,"end":23718.99,"text":"使用的這個"},{"start":23718.99,"end":23720.99,"text":"容許量嘛 還有"},{"start":23720.99,"end":23722.99,"text":"我們的飲食習慣 清潔方法"},{"start":23722.99,"end":23724.99,"text":"還有這些毒性的這個研究"},{"start":23724.99,"end":23726.99,"text":"好 等等"},{"start":23726.99,"end":23728.99,"text":"那還有這個田間殘留試驗的數據"},{"start":23728.99,"end":23730.99,"text":"通通都拋在腦後了嘛"},{"start":23730.99,"end":23732.99,"text":"所以"},{"start":23732.99,"end":23734.99,"text":"早上我大概"},{"start":23734.99,"end":23736.99,"text":"點出大家為什麼早上在"},{"start":23736.99,"end":23738.99,"text":"在爭論那個"},{"start":23738.99,"end":23740.99,"text":"毒蘋果這個用詞"},{"start":23741.43,"end":23743.43,"text":"你不能說我們把它定標準"},{"start":23743.43,"end":23745.43,"text":"你都把它套上一個毒"},{"start":23745.43,"end":23747.43,"text":"那我們還有茶葉 去看一下"},{"start":23747.43,"end":23749.43,"text":"在這個表裡面是10耶"},{"start":23750.38,"end":23752.38,"text":"好 那不就叫毒茶葉嗎"},{"start":23753.2,"end":23755.2,"text":"好"},{"start":23754.56,"end":23756.56,"text":"那沒關係 我們等一下再回頭來看這個"},{"start":23756.56,"end":23758.56,"text":"就是說署長"},{"start":23758.56,"end":23760.56,"text":"接下來我請教一下部長"},{"start":23760.56,"end":23762.56,"text":"我的印象 蘋果"},{"start":23762.56,"end":23764.56,"text":"是溫帶的水果 那美國"},{"start":23764.56,"end":23766.56,"text":"跟日本種出來的蘋果"},{"start":23766.56,"end":23768.56,"text":"比較大顆 他們的這個"},{"start":23768.56,"end":23770.56,"text":"分普寧殘留的標準分別"},{"start":23770.56,"end":23772.56,"text":"是美國是5ppm"},{"start":23772.56,"end":23774.56,"text":"還有日本的2ppm"},{"start":23774.56,"end":23776.56,"text":"而且"},{"start":23776.05,"end":23778.05,"text":"這種這個"},{"start":23778.05,"end":23780.05,"text":"蟲蟲菊精類的這個農藥"},{"start":23780.05,"end":23782.05,"text":"化學成分比較"},{"start":23782.05,"end":23784.05,"text":"就是說跟天然的這個"},{"start":23784.05,"end":23786.05,"text":"蟲蟲菊花比較類似"},{"start":23786.05,"end":23788.05,"text":"那我從Google上面 我有查詢到"},{"start":23788.05,"end":23790.05,"text":"的資料就是說"},{"start":23790.05,"end":23792.05,"text":"美國的環保署他們的評估"},{"start":23792.05,"end":23794.05,"text":"也認為分普寧不太可能"},{"start":23794.05,"end":23796.05,"text":"對人體致癌 當然"},{"start":23796.05,"end":23798.05,"text":"我現在引用美國的資料 我不是專家"},{"start":23798.05,"end":23800.05,"text":"但如果"},{"start":23800.05,"end":23802.05,"text":"是我們台灣生產的"},{"start":23802.05,"end":23804.05,"text":"蘋果比較小顆的話"},{"start":23804.05,"end":23806.05,"text":"那是不是就是說"},{"start":23806.05,"end":23808.05,"text":"相較這個我們修訂以前的"},{"start":23808.05,"end":23810.05,"text":"數據是比較不容易"},{"start":23810.05,"end":23812.05,"text":"超標 這樣比較起來"},{"start":23812.05,"end":23814.05,"text":"其實在販售上反而是有利的"},{"start":23814.74,"end":23816.74,"text":"我們農業部點頭嘛"},{"start":23816.74,"end":23818.74,"text":"對不對 對我們的農民"},{"start":23818.74,"end":23820.74,"text":"是有利的 那事實上呢"},{"start":23820.74,"end":23822.74,"text":"如果有葡萄的標準"},{"start":23822.74,"end":23824.74,"text":"都可以訂到5ppm"},{"start":23824.74,"end":23826.74,"text":"的話 那我想要請教"},{"start":23826.74,"end":23828.74,"text":"就是說"},{"start":23828.74,"end":23830.74,"text":"葡萄我們通常你看這麼小"},{"start":23830.74,"end":23832.74,"text":"我大概一次一顆 我不太會吐皮"},{"start":23832.74,"end":23834.74,"text":"那跟這個整顆的"},{"start":23834.74,"end":23836.74,"text":"蘋果這樣比起來"},{"start":23836.74,"end":23838.74,"text":"那我們"},{"start":23838.21,"end":23840.21,"text":"5.0跟3.0"},{"start":23840.21,"end":23842.21,"text":"是不是也算是可以接受的範圍"},{"start":23843.55,"end":23845.55,"text":"其實從剛剛委員的資訊裡面"},{"start":23845.55,"end":23847.55,"text":"那麼就可以很清楚的"},{"start":23847.55,"end":23849.55,"text":"了解 這個"},{"start":23849.55,"end":23851.55,"text":"絕對值是沒有"},{"start":23851.55,"end":23853.55,"text":"意義的 因為在不同"},{"start":23853.55,"end":23855.55,"text":"類別之間是沒有辦法相比"},{"start":23855.55,"end":23857.55,"text":"所以看這個絕對值的"},{"start":23857.55,"end":23859.55,"text":"高低是沒有意義 因為"},{"start":23859.55,"end":23861.55,"text":"每一個品項"},{"start":23861.55,"end":23863.55,"text":"牽涉到這個"},{"start":23863.55,"end":23865.55,"text":"攝食習慣 攝食量"},{"start":23865.55,"end":23867.55,"text":"還有他的這個農藥的"},{"start":23867.55,"end":23869.55,"text":"本身他的施灑的"},{"start":23869.55,"end":23871.55,"text":"這個在做的情形"},{"start":23871.55,"end":23873.55,"text":"所以他都是需要經過"},{"start":23873.55,"end":23875.55,"text":"一個嚴謹的評估之後去定出來"},{"start":23875.55,"end":23877.55,"text":"所以我想這個"},{"start":23877.55,"end":23879.55,"text":"謝謝委員 這個很清楚的"},{"start":23879.55,"end":23881.55,"text":"讓大家可以理解這個絕對值"},{"start":23881.55,"end":23883.55,"text":"這個多少ppm"},{"start":23883.55,"end":23885.55,"text":"這個絕對值 先不要講這個ppm"},{"start":23885.55,"end":23887.55,"text":"就10的六四方分之一"},{"start":23887.55,"end":23889.55,"text":"先不要講這個"},{"start":23889.55,"end":23891.55,"text":"那麼但是這個絕對值相較之間"},{"start":23891.55,"end":23893.55,"text":"是沒有意義的 還是要"},{"start":23893.55,"end":23895.55,"text":"回到每一個類別之間去看"},{"start":23895.55,"end":23897.55,"text":"但我覺得把這個葡萄"},{"start":23897.55,"end":23899.55,"text":"櫻桃跟蘋果比較起來"},{"start":23899.55,"end":23901.55,"text":"這個數字攤開來 民眾很容易理解"},{"start":23901.55,"end":23903.55,"text":"但你們有沒有想過"},{"start":23903.55,"end":23905.55,"text":"用這樣的方式去理解"},{"start":23905.55,"end":23907.55,"text":"所以這次才會把他從"},{"start":23907.55,"end":23909.55,"text":"那個梨果類把他拉出來"},{"start":23909.55,"end":23911.55,"text":"各自去那個"},{"start":23911.55,"end":23913.55,"text":"桃子 梨子"},{"start":23913.55,"end":23915.55,"text":"然後葡萄"},{"start":23915.55,"end":23917.55,"text":"葡萄柚各自去"},{"start":23917.55,"end":23919.55,"text":"去列相"},{"start":23919.55,"end":23921.55,"text":"本期是有查到就是說"},{"start":23923.26,"end":23925.26,"text":"農業部的這個動植物"},{"start":23925.26,"end":23927.26,"text":"你們防疫檢疫局的資料"},{"start":23927.26,"end":23929.26,"text":"因為葡萄有一種針聚引起的"},{"start":23929.26,"end":23931.26,"text":"嗅病 深嗅的"},{"start":23931.26,"end":23933.26,"text":"嗅病 那芬普寧是"},{"start":23933.26,"end":23935.26,"text":"可以發揮很好的儲菌效果"},{"start":23935.26,"end":23937.26,"text":"因為葡萄他的體積很小"},{"start":23937.26,"end":23939.26,"text":"在考慮他危害性"},{"start":23939.26,"end":23941.26,"text":"不高 所以因此可以"},{"start":23941.26,"end":23943.26,"text":"容許這個殘留值為5ppm"},{"start":23943.26,"end":23945.26,"text":"應該是這樣吧"},{"start":23945.26,"end":23947.26,"text":"好 那"},{"start":23947.63,"end":23949.63,"text":"報委原理"},{"start":23949.63,"end":23951.63,"text":"我如果講錯你就糾正我"},{"start":23951.63,"end":23953.63,"text":"沒有錯 我們就繼續講下去"},{"start":23953.63,"end":23955.63,"text":"農藥使用是針對他的病蟲害"},{"start":23955.63,"end":23957.63,"text":"對象是病蟲害"},{"start":23957.63,"end":23959.63,"text":"每種原意 每樣作物的原意性狀不一樣"},{"start":23959.63,"end":23961.63,"text":"所以今天農藥殘留標準"},{"start":23961.63,"end":23963.63,"text":"是可以根據"},{"start":23963.63,"end":23965.63,"text":"有沒有病蟲害流行"},{"start":23965.63,"end":23967.63,"text":"還有水果的使用特性"},{"start":23967.63,"end":23969.63,"text":"跟學術界的這個毒性研究"},{"start":23969.63,"end":23971.63,"text":"來家裡評估之後調整"},{"start":23971.63,"end":23973.63,"text":"大家是不是認同"},{"start":23973.63,"end":23975.63,"text":"好 那我們再繼續看下去"},{"start":23975.63,"end":23977.63,"text":"我又點到一個重點"},{"start":23977.63,"end":23979.63,"text":"為什麼那個田間施作很重要"},{"start":23979.63,"end":23981.63,"text":"因為每一個國家"},{"start":23981.63,"end":23983.63,"text":"他有不同的病蟲害"},{"start":23983.63,"end":23985.63,"text":"所以他的農藥的施作情形是不同的"},{"start":23985.63,"end":23987.63,"text":"量是不同的"},{"start":23987.63,"end":23989.63,"text":"所以會根據我們的安全容許量"},{"start":23989.63,"end":23991.63,"text":"去訂出一個標準"},{"start":23991.63,"end":23993.63,"text":"各國之間也有落差就是這樣"},{"start":23993.63,"end":23995.63,"text":"是 那所以我們從這一次爭議來看"},{"start":23995.63,"end":23997.63,"text":"當我們外界質疑一項標準的改變"},{"start":23997.63,"end":23999.63,"text":"是不是有事實的考量的時候"},{"start":23999.63,"end":24001.63,"text":"最好的解方"},{"start":24001.63,"end":24003.63,"text":"就是我們用數據來說話"},{"start":24003.63,"end":24005.63,"text":"食藥署掌握了許多行政的資料"},{"start":24005.63,"end":24007.63,"text":"本席建議你們"},{"start":24007.63,"end":24009.63,"text":"拜託啦 要好好的"},{"start":24009.63,"end":24011.63,"text":"善加利用啦"},{"start":24011.63,"end":24013.63,"text":"那如果第一時間可以讓民眾知道說"},{"start":24013.63,"end":24015.63,"text":"分譜您在不同的"},{"start":24015.63,"end":24017.63,"text":"水果殘留的數值"},{"start":24017.63,"end":24019.63,"text":"食藥署你們都有掌握"},{"start":24019.63,"end":24021.63,"text":"而且這個放寬標準"},{"start":24021.63,"end":24023.63,"text":"不見得是因為他的殘留值變高"},{"start":24023.63,"end":24025.63,"text":"好 那你們好好去"},{"start":24025.63,"end":24027.63,"text":"提早好好去檢視 相信就是說"},{"start":24027.63,"end":24029.63,"text":"可以更讓這個民眾"},{"start":24029.63,"end":24031.63,"text":"可以安心"},{"start":24031.63,"end":24033.63,"text":"我也藉這個機會"},{"start":24033.63,"end":24035.63,"text":"也是一個自我的反省跟觀察啦"},{"start":24035.63,"end":24037.63,"text":"就是說"},{"start":24037.42,"end":24039.42,"text":"每一個政黨都有執政的機會啦"},{"start":24039.42,"end":24041.42,"text":"那通常在立法院的生態"},{"start":24043.75,"end":24045.75,"text":"喔"},{"start":24044.75,"end":24046.75,"text":"通常執政黨都想盡辦法"},{"start":24046.75,"end":24048.75,"text":"要穩定民心嘛"},{"start":24048.8,"end":24050.8,"text":"在野黨就是我們抓到一個議題的時候"},{"start":24050.8,"end":24052.8,"text":"就想盡辦法"},{"start":24052.8,"end":24054.8,"text":"把它放大"},{"start":24054.8,"end":24056.8,"text":"把它窮追猛打"},{"start":24056.8,"end":24058.8,"text":"唯恐天下不亂"},{"start":24058.8,"end":24060.8,"text":"最好所有的事情 所有的那個都零減出"},{"start":24061.52,"end":24063.52,"text":"一般 我在講立法院的生態啦"},{"start":24063.52,"end":24065.52,"text":"那我不能一直講別人"},{"start":24065.52,"end":24067.52,"text":"這種事其實我們以前在野的時候"},{"start":24067.52,"end":24069.52,"text":"我們都幹過啦"},{"start":24069.52,"end":24071.52,"text":"那所以我覺得"},{"start":24071.71,"end":24073.71,"text":"我自己本身"},{"start":24073.71,"end":24075.71,"text":"我要講別人之前 我先講我自己"},{"start":24075.71,"end":24077.71,"text":"那我們都 我們其實也"},{"start":24077.71,"end":24079.71,"text":"在座有很多人也做很多"},{"start":24079.71,"end":24081.71,"text":"解了 我們都會成長 我們都會"},{"start":24081.71,"end":24083.71,"text":"反省嘛 所以實在"},{"start":24083.71,"end":24085.71,"text":"這些問題 拜託大家"},{"start":24085.71,"end":24087.71,"text":"最後還是回歸專業啦"},{"start":24087.71,"end":24089.71,"text":"來解決"},{"start":24089.71,"end":24091.71,"text":"那再來就是說要跟衛福部分享"},{"start":24091.71,"end":24093.71,"text":"就是說不管食藥署還是國健署"},{"start":24093.71,"end":24095.71,"text":"其他單位喔 那衛福部的"},{"start":24095.71,"end":24097.71,"text":"業務都非常專業"},{"start":24097.71,"end":24099.71,"text":"像剛剛食藥署署長講了一堆"},{"start":24099.71,"end":24101.71,"text":"還有最早你剛來立法院我們也交手過"},{"start":24101.71,"end":24103.71,"text":"你也是講了一堆"},{"start":24103.71,"end":24105.71,"text":"那 但是問題是就是說"},{"start":24106.09,"end":24108.09,"text":"聽起來很專業 但是民眾都聽不懂啊"},{"start":24108.09,"end":24110.09,"text":"所以你們的課題"},{"start":24110.09,"end":24112.09,"text":"很重要就是說 到底要用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":24112.09,"end":24114.09,"text":"第一時間"},{"start":24114.09,"end":24116.09,"text":"才能夠讓民眾"},{"start":24116.09,"end":24118.09,"text":"能夠就是說接受你們的"},{"start":24118.09,"end":24120.09,"text":"講法 然後能夠了解"},{"start":24120.09,"end":24122.09,"text":"所以因為"},{"start":24122.09,"end":24124.09,"text":"因為專業才更需要溝通"},{"start":24124.09,"end":24126.09,"text":"你們不能說動不動"},{"start":24126.09,"end":24128.09,"text":"就用自己的想法去"},{"start":24128.09,"end":24130.09,"text":"否定民眾 或者說"},{"start":24130.09,"end":24132.09,"text":"舉例啊 譬如說"},{"start":24132.09,"end":24134.09,"text":"加熱菸的開放啦 精人性食品的"},{"start":24134.09,"end":24136.09,"text":"健康效應啦 中藥材"},{"start":24136.09,"end":24138.09,"text":"食材的管理啦 很多"},{"start":24138.09,"end":24140.09,"text":"都是我們民眾的需求啊"},{"start":24140.09,"end":24142.09,"text":"那但是衛福部 部份的官員"},{"start":24142.09,"end":24144.09,"text":"常常會以自己的專業啊"},{"start":24144.09,"end":24146.09,"text":"去否定民眾的需求嘛"},{"start":24146.09,"end":24148.09,"text":"你們想要透過這個權利跟一些"},{"start":24148.09,"end":24150.09,"text":"管制措施啊 去替民眾做"},{"start":24150.09,"end":24152.09,"text":"健康的決定"},{"start":24151.58,"end":24153.58,"text":"好 所以不要忘了"},{"start":24153.58,"end":24155.58,"text":"就是說 去要尊重每個人的想法"},{"start":24155.58,"end":24157.58,"text":"大家每個人的需求是不一樣的"},{"start":24157.58,"end":24159.58,"text":"那健康也是如此嘛"},{"start":24159.58,"end":24161.58,"text":"所以同樣一個這個農業的"},{"start":24161.58,"end":24163.58,"text":"殘留標準"},{"start":24163.11,"end":24165.11,"text":"櫻桃跟蘋果可以"},{"start":24165.11,"end":24167.11,"text":"就是說 它可以一樣"},{"start":24167.11,"end":24169.11,"text":"啊葡萄可以更高"},{"start":24169.11,"end":24171.11,"text":"其實不管這邊我現在擺在"},{"start":24171.11,"end":24173.11,"text":"桌上所有的水果 不管它的"},{"start":24173.11,"end":24175.11,"text":"標準是怎麼樣"},{"start":24174.94,"end":24176.94,"text":"它都是安全的 包括茶葉"},{"start":24176.94,"end":24178.94,"text":"那所以希望未來"},{"start":24178.94,"end":24180.94,"text":"衛福部的每一位官員喔"},{"start":24180.94,"end":24182.94,"text":"的思維 就是說"},{"start":24182.94,"end":24184.94,"text":"你們有你們的專業"},{"start":24184.94,"end":24186.94,"text":"但是你們講出來的話"},{"start":24186.94,"end":24188.94,"text":"可不可以更接地氣"},{"start":24188.94,"end":24190.94,"text":"更有人情味"},{"start":24190.94,"end":24192.94,"text":"那不然就是說 我們也都希望"},{"start":24192.94,"end":24194.94,"text":"每一次的質詢都可以看到你們在做每一位啊"},{"start":24194.94,"end":24196.94,"text":"不要因為你們的專業"},{"start":24196.94,"end":24198.94,"text":"而失去未來再站在這裡"},{"start":24198.94,"end":24200.94,"text":"備詢的機會啦 我是做這樣的提醒"},{"start":24202.02,"end":24204.02,"text":"謝謝委員 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518.77,"text":"事件沒有擴大的"},{"start":25518.77,"end":25520.77,"text":"情形我們都會有"},{"start":25520.77,"end":25522.77,"text":"風險的評估分級"},{"start":25522.77,"end":25524.77,"text":"來決定那你要不要參照念"},{"start":25524.77,"end":25526.77,"text":"政部所謂的中央在應變中心"},{"start":25526.77,"end":25528.77,"text":"的作用點所謂的一級開設"},{"start":25528.77,"end":25530.77,"text":"二級開設三級開設嘛對嗎"},{"start":25530.77,"end":25532.77,"text":"對這個有一個授權"},{"start":25532.77,"end":25534.77,"text":"我們有個授權來訂這個組織"},{"start":25534.77,"end":25536.77,"text":"跟啟動"},{"start":25536.77,"end":25538.77,"text":"以到嚴重程度來提升指揮的"},{"start":25538.77,"end":25540.77,"text":"那個樣能跟"},{"start":25540.77,"end":25542.77,"text":"指揮官的這樣的一個階級"},{"start":25542.77,"end":25544.77,"text":"應該是這樣嘛"},{"start":25544.77,"end":25546.77,"text":"因為我是看這一次"},{"start":25546.77,"end":25548.77,"text":"你看到我們食藥署第一時間是"},{"start":25548.77,"end":25550.77,"text":"106年食品安全之一會"},{"start":25550.77,"end":25552.77,"text":"訂定的食品違規案件"},{"start":25552.77,"end":25554.77,"text":"產品下架"},{"start":25554.77,"end":25556.77,"text":"回收封存銷毀階層"},{"start":25556.77,"end":25558.77,"text":"這一次處理原則"},{"start":25558.77,"end":25560.77,"text":"來處理這次的這個問題"},{"start":25560.77,"end":25562.77,"text":"有的一個下架的一個程序"},{"start":25562.77,"end":25564.77,"text":"但是這106年的食品安全之一會"},{"start":25564.77,"end":25566.77,"text":"他認為"},{"start":25567.83,"end":25569.83,"text":"人民幣的油只要下架第一層就可以"},{"start":25569.83,"end":25571.83,"text":"顯然"},{"start":25571.83,"end":25573.83,"text":"大眾就覺得不可以"},{"start":25573.76,"end":25575.76,"text":"部長也覺得這個做法是有問題"},{"start":25577.42,"end":25579.42,"text":"應該是這樣嘛"},{"start":25579.42,"end":25581.42,"text":"所以才會繞個一大圈花了快一周"},{"start":25581.06,"end":25583.06,"text":"然後一層二層變到三層"},{"start":25583.75,"end":25585.75,"text":"所以我想這個"},{"start":25585.75,"end":25587.75,"text":"實際上就是如此沒有什麼容許空間"},{"start":25587.75,"end":25589.75,"text":"有疑慮我們中央就應該當機立斷了"},{"start":25589.75,"end":25591.75,"text":"所以"},{"start":25591.75,"end":25593.75,"text":"我是要求就是說"},{"start":25593.75,"end":25595.75,"text":"針對106當時訂定的"},{"start":25595.75,"end":25597.75,"text":"這個產品下架回收封存銷毀"},{"start":25597.75,"end":25599.75,"text":"階層支出原則"},{"start":25599.75,"end":25601.75,"text":"也必須要全面修正了"},{"start":25601.75,"end":25603.75,"text":"加嚴嘛對不對"},{"start":25603.75,"end":25605.75,"text":"對未來三四件無論大小就是必須啟動"},{"start":25605.75,"end":25607.75,"text":"食安的指揮中心"},{"start":25607.75,"end":25609.75,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":25609.75,"end":25611.75,"text":"跟委員說明當時後這個"},{"start":25611.75,"end":25613.75,"text":"這個大架的這個原則"},{"start":25613.75,"end":25615.75,"text":"階層原則是把"},{"start":25615.75,"end":25617.75,"text":"違反這個"},{"start":25617.75,"end":25619.75,"text":"衛生安全標準的通通在同一類"},{"start":25619.75,"end":25621.75,"text":"就是第八類"},{"start":25621.75,"end":25623.75,"text":"但是這個違反衛生安全標準的"},{"start":25623.75,"end":25625.75,"text":"這個品項其實"},{"start":25625.75,"end":25627.75,"text":"還蠻多種的"},{"start":25627.75,"end":25629.75,"text":"所以可能還是需要把它按照"},{"start":25629.75,"end":25631.75,"text":"這個風險危害的情形"},{"start":25631.75,"end":25633.75,"text":"稍微做一點分級"},{"start":25633.75,"end":25635.75,"text":"然後我們會重新檢討"},{"start":25635.75,"end":25637.75,"text":"這個原則"},{"start":25637.75,"end":25639.75,"text":"也會在這次修法把它明確入法"},{"start":25639.75,"end":25641.75,"text":"從這個方向的修法我們就來"},{"start":25641.75,"end":25643.75,"text":"支持了好不好"},{"start":25643.75,"end":25645.75,"text":"最後一個面向"},{"start":25645.75,"end":25647.75,"text":"剛剛楊委員我聽到最後面講的人力問題"},{"start":25648.77,"end":25650.77,"text":"這個人力問題真的非常嚴重"},{"start":25650.77,"end":25652.77,"text":"我不曉得這幾天有沒有討論到這個人力問題"},{"start":25652.77,"end":25654.77,"text":"你看114年FDA的機場"},{"start":25654.77,"end":25656.77,"text":"167DN衛生局的機場"},{"start":25656.77,"end":25658.77,"text":"163全國共計"},{"start":25658.77,"end":25660.77,"text":"634年來應付全國"},{"start":25660.77,"end":25662.77,"text":"40萬家的食品業者"},{"start":25663.14,"end":25665.14,"text":"這個比例"},{"start":25665.25,"end":25667.25,"text":"這個比例學就輸"},{"start":25667.97,"end":25669.97,"text":"太大了"},{"start":25669.97,"end":25671.97,"text":"那不只如此喔"},{"start":25671.7,"end":25673.7,"text":"你看"},{"start":25672.86,"end":25674.86,"text":"我們2300萬的食品安全"},{"start":25674.86,"end":25676.86,"text":"還有剛剛特別講"},{"start":25676.86,"end":25678.86,"text":"是40萬家"},{"start":25678.86,"end":25680.86,"text":"634人來做這樣把關"},{"start":25680.86,"end":25682.86,"text":"不然就這樣合理嗎"},{"start":25682.86,"end":25684.86,"text":"量能夠嗎"},{"start":25684.86,"end":25686.86,"text":"其實跟委員說明這個事件"},{"start":25686.86,"end":25688.86,"text":"不只是食藥署"},{"start":25688.86,"end":25690.86,"text":"中央的人力大家很辛苦"},{"start":25690.86,"end":25692.86,"text":"其實地方第一線的"},{"start":25692.86,"end":25694.86,"text":"衛生人員其實他們"},{"start":25694.86,"end":25696.86,"text":"也很辛苦啦"},{"start":25696.86,"end":25698.86,"text":"所以未來我們應該是朝兩個方向來處理"},{"start":25698.86,"end":25700.86,"text":"一個喔"},{"start":25700.86,"end":25702.86,"text":"第二是利用智慧化的方式"},{"start":25702.86,"end":25704.86,"text":"來管理"},{"start":25704.86,"end":25706.86,"text":"不要統統都是要跳脫傳統的這個"},{"start":25706.86,"end":25708.86,"text":"稽查方式"},{"start":25708.86,"end":25710.86,"text":"盡量要能夠這個"},{"start":25710.86,"end":25712.86,"text":"智慧化的監測預警系統"},{"start":25712.86,"end":25714.86,"text":"我們再來更完備"},{"start":25714.86,"end":25716.86,"text":"第二個喔分風險等級來查"},{"start":25716.86,"end":25718.86,"text":"這個是很重要"},{"start":25718.86,"end":25720.86,"text":"不然你會花了很多的力氣"},{"start":25720.86,"end":25722.86,"text":"但是沒有切中到那個要點"},{"start":25722.86,"end":25724.86,"text":"所以還會未來會"},{"start":25724.86,"end":25726.86,"text":"我們會按照這個風險"},{"start":25726.86,"end":25728.86,"text":"去處理這個稽查的項目"},{"start":25728.86,"end":25730.86,"text":"避免第一線的人力過勞"},{"start":25730.86,"end":25732.86,"text":"當然如果能夠增加人力"},{"start":25732.86,"end":25734.86,"text":"我們當然也是全力來爭取"},{"start":25735.42,"end":25737.42,"text":"所以部長有沒有朝向跟行政院"},{"start":25737.42,"end":25739.42,"text":"要爭取人力 要增加於火"},{"start":25740.01,"end":25742.01,"text":"我們持續爭取"},{"start":25742.01,"end":25744.01,"text":"其實我們過去就去年就爭取"},{"start":25744.01,"end":25746.01,"text":"主要是擴充我們的邊境查驗"},{"start":25746.01,"end":25748.01,"text":"因為邊境查驗也很重要"},{"start":25748.01,"end":25750.01,"text":"從源頭就管"},{"start":25750.01,"end":25752.01,"text":"所以我們去年是先增加"},{"start":25752.01,"end":25754.01,"text":"邊境這個查驗的人力"},{"start":25754.01,"end":25756.01,"text":"那接下來我們也會按照我們業務的需要"},{"start":25756.01,"end":25758.01,"text":"來持續的爭取"},{"start":25758.01,"end":25760.01,"text":"我看一個歷史的數據"},{"start":25760.01,"end":25762.01,"text":"再請教部長"},{"start":25762.01,"end":25764.01,"text":"103年"},{"start":25764.01,"end":25766.01,"text":"通過食品業者專門"},{"start":25766.01,"end":25768.01,"text":"職業或技術這個證照"},{"start":25768.01,"end":25770.01,"text":"經典設置及管理辦法"},{"start":25770.01,"end":25772.01,"text":"104年開始考試"},{"start":25772.01,"end":25774.01,"text":"至今台灣有數千位的食品技師"},{"start":25774.01,"end":25776.01,"text":"然後這群食品技師"},{"start":25776.01,"end":25778.01,"text":"就是食安的第一線"},{"start":25778.01,"end":25780.01,"text":"也應該是"},{"start":25780.01,"end":25782.01,"text":"衛部FDA的最好助手"},{"start":25781.93,"end":25783.93,"text":"但這幾年衛部"},{"start":25783.93,"end":25785.93,"text":"應該是不重視食品技師的情況"},{"start":25786.6,"end":25788.6,"text":"應該是這樣"},{"start":25788.6,"end":25790.6,"text":"所以他食品技師的報國人數是雪崩式的下跌"},{"start":25790.6,"end":25792.6,"text":"104年"},{"start":25792.6,"end":25794.6,"text":"招口的時候"},{"start":25793.94,"end":25795.94,"text":"報考人數高達2000多人"},{"start":25795.94,"end":25797.94,"text":"到去年只剩下568人報考"},{"start":25797.94,"end":25799.94,"text":"那不僅報考人數雪崩式的"},{"start":25799.94,"end":25801.94,"text":"類檢"},{"start":25801.94,"end":25803.94,"text":"已經取得證照的"},{"start":25803.94,"end":25805.94,"text":"最終離開這個職場的"},{"start":25805.94,"end":25807.94,"text":"去職業的也不再少數了"},{"start":25807.94,"end":25809.94,"text":"也沒有說"},{"start":25809.94,"end":25811.94,"text":"台灣的食品安全最堅強的後盾的一群人"},{"start":25811.94,"end":25813.94,"text":"怎麼會變這樣"},{"start":25814.55,"end":25816.55,"text":"而且這次優品事件"},{"start":25816.55,"end":25818.55,"text":"食品技師公會發出聲明"},{"start":25818.55,"end":25820.55,"text":"他們提出了具體建議"},{"start":25820.55,"end":25822.55,"text":"我不想部長有掌握嗎"},{"start":25822.55,"end":25824.55,"text":"這兩件事請部長回應一下"},{"start":25824.55,"end":25826.55,"text":"但是也謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":25826.55,"end":25828.55,"text":"這是我們當然在"},{"start":25828.55,"end":25830.55,"text":"傳統的公務人力上"},{"start":25830.55,"end":25832.55,"text":"會很吃緊"},{"start":25832.55,"end":25834.55,"text":"但是這些專業人員"},{"start":25834.55,"end":25836.55,"text":"包含食品技師或者是公衛師"},{"start":25836.55,"end":25838.55,"text":"這些"},{"start":25838.55,"end":25840.55,"text":"那麼也都是經過一定的"},{"start":25840.55,"end":25842.55,"text":"教育跟這個"},{"start":25842.55,"end":25844.55,"text":"考核那麼才有辦法取得這些資格的"},{"start":25844.55,"end":25846.55,"text":"我們來研議看看"},{"start":25846.55,"end":25848.55,"text":"讓他能夠導入"},{"start":25848.55,"end":25850.55,"text":"來擴充我們這些所需要的"},{"start":25850.55,"end":25852.55,"text":"稽查人力或者食安的人力"},{"start":25852.55,"end":25854.55,"text":"他們"},{"start":25854.55,"end":25856.55,"text":"各位是這樣建立啦"},{"start":25856.55,"end":25858.55,"text":"建樹成立食品技術的驗證制度"},{"start":25858.55,"end":25860.55,"text":"那內部有食品技師"},{"start":25860.55,"end":25862.55,"text":"也要有權責"},{"start":25862.55,"end":25864.55,"text":"同時也要搭配外部的"},{"start":25864.55,"end":25866.55,"text":"食品技師的驗證"},{"start":25866.55,"end":25868.55,"text":"然後最後再加上"},{"start":25868.55,"end":25870.55,"text":"政府任用的公職的食品技師"},{"start":25870.55,"end":25872.55,"text":"形成一個三方共同監督的制度"},{"start":25872.55,"end":25874.55,"text":"才能真正的落實"},{"start":25874.55,"end":25876.55,"text":"這個食安網"},{"start":25876.86,"end":25878.86,"text":"所以如果今天我們食安法要修法"},{"start":25878.86,"end":25880.86,"text":"是不是也包含"},{"start":25880.86,"end":25882.86,"text":"所謂的第三方檢驗"},{"start":25883.02,"end":25885.02,"text":"是不是可以更"},{"start":25885.83,"end":25887.83,"text":"可以來接有自詢食品技師"},{"start":25887.83,"end":25889.83,"text":"來做更勤力的合作"},{"start":25891.6,"end":25893.6,"text":"好 跟委員說明"},{"start":25893.6,"end":25895.6,"text":"其實我們現在一定規模以上的"},{"start":25895.6,"end":25897.6,"text":"食品廠其實是有要求"},{"start":25897.6,"end":25899.6,"text":"要有食品技師啦 只是還沒有做到"},{"start":25899.6,"end":25901.6,"text":"委員剛剛提的"},{"start":25901.6,"end":25903.6,"text":"有點像簽"},{"start":25903.6,"end":25905.6,"text":"獨立簽證的概念"},{"start":25905.6,"end":25907.6,"text":"他要獨立負責簽證"},{"start":25907.6,"end":25909.6,"text":"那這個"},{"start":25909.6,"end":25911.6,"text":"那就跟他的"},{"start":25911.6,"end":25913.6,"text":"業主之間的關係 因為畢竟"},{"start":25913.6,"end":25915.6,"text":"現在是受聘"},{"start":25915.6,"end":25917.6,"text":"那如何讓"},{"start":25917.6,"end":25919.6,"text":"我們來研究他入法要求"},{"start":25919.6,"end":25921.6,"text":"一定要聘 但是他是獨立職業"},{"start":25921.6,"end":25923.6,"text":"駐場"},{"start":25923.6,"end":25925.6,"text":"用這個設計來"},{"start":25925.6,"end":25927.6,"text":"我們來這個"},{"start":25927.6,"end":25929.6,"text":"研究一下看看未來"},{"start":25929.6,"end":25931.6,"text":"我的想法比較是朝向第三方的"},{"start":25932.3,"end":25934.3,"text":"這個制度"},{"start":25934.3,"end":25936.3,"text":"第三方驗證"},{"start":25936.3,"end":25938.3,"text":"現在也是有這個設計"},{"start":25938.3,"end":25940.3,"text":"只是把第三方"},{"start":25940.3,"end":25942.3,"text":"驗證單位納入"},{"start":25942.3,"end":25944.3,"text":"一定要"},{"start":25944.3,"end":25946.3,"text":"有食品技師去"},{"start":25946.3,"end":25948.3,"text":"執行他的第三方驗證"},{"start":25948.3,"end":25950.3,"text":"因為其實這個他的"},{"start":25950.3,"end":25952.3,"text":"專業在 所以現在雖然"},{"start":25952.3,"end":25954.3,"text":"有第三方驗證單位去驗證他"},{"start":25954.3,"end":25956.3,"text":"應該多數也會找"},{"start":25956.3,"end":25958.3,"text":"食品醫師來做 只是我們現在沒有"},{"start":25958.3,"end":25960.3,"text":"強制啦 那未來我們來看看"},{"start":25960.3,"end":25962.3,"text":"在第三方驗證"},{"start":25962.3,"end":25964.3,"text":"因為我們現在修法是第三方"},{"start":25964.3,"end":25966.3,"text":"驗證的單位也要經過主管"},{"start":25966.3,"end":25968.3,"text":"機關的認證"},{"start":25968.3,"end":25970.3,"text":"才能去做驗證"},{"start":25970.3,"end":25972.3,"text":"然後我們在認證"},{"start":25972.3,"end":25974.3,"text":"的辦法上面去把"},{"start":25974.3,"end":25976.3,"text":"食品技師或者是公衛師"},{"start":25976.3,"end":25978.3,"text":"受一定的"},{"start":25978.3,"end":25980.3,"text":"食品相關訓練"},{"start":25980.3,"end":25982.3,"text":"讓他強制的進入"},{"start":25982.3,"end":25984.3,"text":"這個辦法認證裡面"},{"start":25984.3,"end":25986.3,"text":"認證辦法裡面"},{"start":25986.3,"end":25988.3,"text":"我是覺得這第三方的"},{"start":25988.3,"end":25990.3,"text":"一個檢驗的制度基本上如果可以確立"},{"start":25990.3,"end":25992.3,"text":"而且可以去落實"},{"start":25993.93,"end":25995.93,"text":"我覺得對台灣的食品安全"},{"start":25995.93,"end":25997.93,"text":"會大大提升"},{"start":25997.93,"end":25999.93,"text":"因為所謂的第三方"},{"start":25999.93,"end":26001.93,"text":"的這樣的一個"},{"start":26001.93,"end":26003.93,"text":"包含"},{"start":26003.93,"end":26005.93,"text":"在日本有很多的像"},{"start":26005.93,"end":26007.93,"text":"社福的機構基本上他們是第三方評價"},{"start":26007.93,"end":26009.93,"text":"對不對 然後如果在食品"},{"start":26009.93,"end":26011.93,"text":"安全部可以有第三方的這樣一個"},{"start":26011.93,"end":26013.93,"text":"檢驗的制度 我覺得對台灣"},{"start":26013.93,"end":26015.93,"text":"整體而言的食品安全"},{"start":26017.06,"end":26019.06,"text":"應該會"},{"start":26018.6,"end":26020.6,"text":"會有顯著的"},{"start":26020.6,"end":26022.6,"text":"更好的這樣的一個效益存在"},{"start":26022.6,"end":26024.6,"text":"能不能朝這個方向來思考"},{"start":26024.6,"end":26026.6,"text":"這個委員給我們一個很好的"},{"start":26026.6,"end":26028.6,"text":"這個方向 因為我們現在正在強化"},{"start":26028.6,"end":26030.6,"text":"第三方認證"},{"start":26030.6,"end":26032.6,"text":"它的這個強度跟授權"},{"start":26032.6,"end":26034.6,"text":"那把這個"},{"start":26034.6,"end":26036.6,"text":"專業人員把它"},{"start":26036.6,"end":26038.6,"text":"導入 強制這個要去做"},{"start":26038.6,"end":26040.6,"text":"這一個認證"},{"start":26040.6,"end":26042.6,"text":"第三方認證的單位"},{"start":26042.6,"end":26044.6,"text":"需要有這樣的人力 專業人力"},{"start":26044.6,"end":26046.6,"text":"我們可以把它納入這個"},{"start":26046.6,"end":26048.6,"text":"辦法裡面來處理"},{"start":26048.6,"end":26050.6,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":26051.77,"end":26053.77,"text":"謝謝劉建國的資訊"},{"start":26053.83,"end":26055.83,"text":"接下來請黃毓祥委員資詢"},{"start":26064.35,"end":26066.35,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":26066.35,"end":26068.35,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":26071.13,"end":26073.13,"text":"好 後面也好"},{"start":26073.68,"end":26075.68,"text":"看一下 我想今天跟"},{"start":26075.68,"end":26077.68,"text":"委員們都討了很多"},{"start":26077.68,"end":26079.68,"text":"那部長也很辛苦 今天一整天"},{"start":26079.68,"end":26081.68,"text":"我今天要跟你談的就是說"},{"start":26081.68,"end":26083.68,"text":"整個我們在這個"},{"start":26083.68,"end":26085.68,"text":"石安雲這邊的一個"},{"start":26085.68,"end":26087.68,"text":"建置 到底在這一次裡頭的"},{"start":26087.68,"end":26089.68,"text":"有沒有發揮一些效果"},{"start":26089.68,"end":26091.68,"text":"所以我想要先請教一下部長"},{"start":26091.68,"end":26093.68,"text":"目前如果按照你們的"},{"start":26093.68,"end":26095.68,"text":"這些的數據"},{"start":26095.68,"end":26097.68,"text":"來看的情況之下"},{"start":26097.68,"end":26099.68,"text":"來看的情況之下"},{"start":26099.68,"end":26101.68,"text":"來看的情況之下"},{"start":26101.68,"end":26103.68,"text":"讓我直接看這個"},{"start":26103.68,"end":26105.68,"text":"現在我根據你們的報告"},{"start":26105.68,"end":26107.68,"text":"因為我這個資料是之前比較"},{"start":26107.68,"end":26109.68,"text":"舊的這個資料 現在目前的話"},{"start":26109.68,"end":26111.68,"text":"我們總共下架應該是"},{"start":26113.84,"end":26115.84,"text":"應該是2.89萬還是什麼"},{"start":26115.84,"end":26117.84,"text":"數字"},{"start":26117.84,"end":26119.84,"text":"數字喔 就是那7P的話是"},{"start":26123.32,"end":26125.32,"text":"應該是310B次吧"},{"start":26125.32,"end":26127.32,"text":"2700多噸"},{"start":26127.32,"end":26129.32,"text":"2700多噸"},{"start":26129.32,"end":26131.32,"text":"不過這個是7P"},{"start":26131.32,"end":26133.32,"text":"委員這個可能是第一批"},{"start":26133.32,"end":26135.32,"text":"應該是在第一批"},{"start":26135.32,"end":26137.32,"text":"所以總共 我記得"},{"start":26137.32,"end":26139.32,"text":"我根據你們的報告"},{"start":26139.32,"end":26141.32,"text":"因為你們的報告來講就是說"},{"start":26141.32,"end":26143.32,"text":"這個最新的一個數據來看的話"},{"start":26143.32,"end":26145.32,"text":"應該總共一開始的時候"},{"start":26145.32,"end":26147.32,"text":"30個P次"},{"start":26147.32,"end":26149.32,"text":"它生產的量大概"},{"start":26149.32,"end":26151.32,"text":"加起來應該是差不多"},{"start":26151.32,"end":26153.32,"text":"2.89萬公噸"},{"start":26153.32,"end":26155.32,"text":"然後再來的話"},{"start":26155.32,"end":26157.32,"text":"是說到了你們的報告的第三頁"},{"start":26157.32,"end":26159.32,"text":"第三頁這邊7P"},{"start":26159.32,"end":26161.32,"text":"在下架回收那裡的話"},{"start":26161.32,"end":26163.32,"text":"7P就是2771"},{"start":26163.32,"end":26165.32,"text":"對不對"},{"start":26165.32,"end":26167.32,"text":"2.2公噸"},{"start":26167.32,"end":26169.32,"text":"然後預防性下架是"},{"start":26169.32,"end":26171.32,"text":"5314 現在這個預防性下架這邊的話"},{"start":26171.32,"end":26173.32,"text":"它是回收嗎"},{"start":26173.32,"end":26175.32,"text":"還是"},{"start":26177.39,"end":26179.39,"text":"預防性下架這個製作會的"},{"start":26179.39,"end":26181.39,"text":"我們應該是這樣"},{"start":26181.39,"end":26183.39,"text":"昨天因為我們已經把它明確區隔"},{"start":26183.39,"end":26185.39,"text":"這7P就是"},{"start":26185.39,"end":26187.39,"text":"強制性下架"},{"start":26187.39,"end":26189.39,"text":"然後回收 消費"},{"start":26189.39,"end":26191.39,"text":"所以它就不會再有重新上架"},{"start":26191.39,"end":26193.39,"text":"那這個量我們目前"},{"start":26193.39,"end":26195.39,"text":"回收的是2794噸"},{"start":26195.39,"end":26197.39,"text":"那麼另外的"},{"start":26197.39,"end":26199.39,"text":"19P已經都"},{"start":26199.39,"end":26201.39,"text":"逐批檢驗合格過了"},{"start":26201.39,"end":26203.39,"text":"所以你的報告第三頁的23P"},{"start":26203.39,"end":26205.39,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":26205.39,"end":26207.39,"text":"是5314"},{"start":26207.16,"end":26209.16,"text":"那個是之前"},{"start":26209.16,"end":26211.16,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":26211.16,"end":26213.16,"text":"現在它這一個部分是可以上架的"},{"start":26213.16,"end":26215.16,"text":"我現在為什麼問這些"},{"start":26215.16,"end":26217.16,"text":"就是說 光我們委員或者是"},{"start":26217.16,"end":26219.16,"text":"這類媒體或是民眾在看這些數據"},{"start":26219.16,"end":26221.16,"text":"就是可能再請你們"},{"start":26221.16,"end":26223.16,"text":"整理得更清楚"},{"start":26223.16,"end":26225.16,"text":"雖然每天都會更新"},{"start":26225.16,"end":26227.16,"text":"你看我要找老半天跟你對"},{"start":26227.16,"end":26229.16,"text":"那我相信一般民眾更辛苦"},{"start":26229.16,"end":26231.16,"text":"我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":26230.83,"end":26232.83,"text":"在我們這一個食品雲這邊的話"},{"start":26232.83,"end":26234.83,"text":"基本上"},{"start":26234.83,"end":26236.83,"text":"這都是你們的官網"},{"start":26236.83,"end":26238.83,"text":"就是食安雲食品"},{"start":26238.83,"end":26240.83,"text":"總共這裡頭的話"},{"start":26240.83,"end":26242.83,"text":"大概跨6個部會"},{"start":26242.83,"end":26244.83,"text":"大概19個系統"},{"start":26244.83,"end":26246.83,"text":"那當然在你們衛福部裡頭"},{"start":26246.83,"end":26248.83,"text":"會在間接外面的"},{"start":26248.83,"end":26250.83,"text":"那主要我們看衛福部食藥署這邊的話"},{"start":26250.83,"end":26252.83,"text":"那它會有"},{"start":26252.83,"end":26254.83,"text":"非登不可非報非追非驗"},{"start":26255.51,"end":26257.51,"text":"非提"},{"start":26256.79,"end":26258.79,"text":"好 那請教各位"},{"start":26258.79,"end":26260.79,"text":"非登不可"},{"start":26260.84,"end":26262.84,"text":"我們這一次油紙油品的"},{"start":26262.84,"end":26264.84,"text":"這幾家從中聯"},{"start":26264.84,"end":26266.84,"text":"到第二層"},{"start":26266.84,"end":26268.84,"text":"甚至到下一層"},{"start":26268.84,"end":26270.84,"text":"這些食品加工製造等等"},{"start":26271.05,"end":26273.05,"text":"拜拜"},{"start":26272.35,"end":26274.35,"text":"跟委員說明確實在這一個事件之後"},{"start":26274.35,"end":26276.35,"text":"我們也在檢討"},{"start":26276.35,"end":26278.35,"text":"這個食品雲應該要再精進"},{"start":26278.35,"end":26280.35,"text":"因為我們過去"},{"start":26280.35,"end":26282.35,"text":"不是我先不用精進"},{"start":26282.35,"end":26284.35,"text":"我先看說40"},{"start":26284.35,"end":26286.35,"text":"它現在有沒有燈"},{"start":26286.35,"end":26288.35,"text":"它有燈"},{"start":26288.35,"end":26290.35,"text":"它現況是這樣"},{"start":26290.35,"end":26292.35,"text":"我們現在的規定值登到製造業"},{"start":26292.35,"end":26294.35,"text":"所以販售業沒有登"},{"start":26294.35,"end":26296.35,"text":"所以製造業在"},{"start":26296.35,"end":26298.35,"text":"中聯油紙有燈"},{"start":26298.35,"end":26300.35,"text":"然後下來的商家"},{"start":26300.35,"end":26302.35,"text":"都有"},{"start":26302.35,"end":26304.35,"text":"然後它賣出去如果試到製造業的"},{"start":26304.35,"end":26306.35,"text":"也都登了"},{"start":26306.35,"end":26308.35,"text":"但是"},{"start":26308.35,"end":26310.35,"text":"連華也要登"},{"start":26310.35,"end":26312.35,"text":"它是製造業的話"},{"start":26312.35,"end":26314.35,"text":"但是如果它賣到的譬如說是賣到"},{"start":26314.35,"end":26316.35,"text":"Costco"},{"start":26316.35,"end":26318.35,"text":"這個就是它是屬於販售業"},{"start":26318.35,"end":26320.35,"text":"這個部分就沒有"},{"start":26320.35,"end":26322.35,"text":"跟經濟部再串一下"},{"start":26322.35,"end":26324.35,"text":"對 那就可能要去串"},{"start":26324.35,"end":26326.35,"text":"電子發票系統"},{"start":26326.35,"end":26328.35,"text":"財政部這邊可能會"},{"start":26328.35,"end":26330.35,"text":"比較容易掌握整個財產的流向"},{"start":26330.35,"end":26332.35,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":26332.35,"end":26334.35,"text":"我先確認這件事"},{"start":26334.85,"end":26336.85,"text":"非追不可"},{"start":26336.67,"end":26338.67,"text":"就是在追的時候應該是很容易就追得到"},{"start":26340.52,"end":26342.52,"text":"就是為什麼要拖那麼久"},{"start":26342.52,"end":26344.52,"text":"因為你登入進去的量"},{"start":26344.52,"end":26346.52,"text":"一定是P號P字對不對"},{"start":26346.52,"end":26348.52,"text":"我申查多少工對嘛等等"},{"start":26348.52,"end":26350.52,"text":"所以這一塊"},{"start":26349.69,"end":26351.69,"text":"我現在看這些數據的話"},{"start":26351.69,"end":26353.69,"text":"應該是從這些系統直接就撈出來就好"},{"start":26353.69,"end":26355.69,"text":"可是我問到私下的"},{"start":26355.69,"end":26357.69,"text":"就是還在"},{"start":26357.69,"end":26359.69,"text":"然後還在給我人工"},{"start":26359.69,"end":26361.69,"text":"報登這些"},{"start":26361.69,"end":26363.69,"text":"應該是"},{"start":26363.69,"end":26365.69,"text":"就像剛才"},{"start":26365.69,"end":26367.69,"text":"部長說明提到的"},{"start":26367.69,"end":26369.69,"text":"因為是在製造業的"},{"start":26369.69,"end":26371.69,"text":"販售業那一端之後的確"},{"start":26371.69,"end":26373.69,"text":"是我們在這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":26373.69,"end":26375.69,"text":"那前面的也是"},{"start":26375.69,"end":26377.69,"text":"所以我是說"},{"start":26377.69,"end":26379.69,"text":"因為你系統都建了"},{"start":26379.69,"end":26381.69,"text":"系統都建的情況之下"},{"start":26381.69,"end":26383.69,"text":"你花很多錢"},{"start":26383.69,"end":26385.69,"text":"我的意思是說這花很多錢"},{"start":26385.69,"end":26387.69,"text":"這個還是實品2.0"},{"start":26387.69,"end":26389.69,"text":"109年到112"},{"start":26389.69,"end":26391.69,"text":"這個是大概這還是小錢"},{"start":26391.69,"end":26393.69,"text":"他之前的第一代的話"},{"start":26393.69,"end":26395.69,"text":"從105到108是更多"},{"start":26395.69,"end":26397.69,"text":"那食安科技的話8509"},{"start":26399.7,"end":26401.7,"text":"食安心計畫應該是4年的"},{"start":26401.7,"end":26403.7,"text":"中長程計畫是18.5"},{"start":26403.7,"end":26405.7,"text":"去年是編了3.2億"},{"start":26405.7,"end":26407.7,"text":"然後呢所以"},{"start":26407.7,"end":26409.7,"text":"這一塊地方的話我就覺得"},{"start":26409.7,"end":26411.7,"text":"很奇怪以我做資訊系統的"},{"start":26411.7,"end":26413.7,"text":"角度來看這種事情"},{"start":26413.7,"end":26415.7,"text":"應該是20分鐘30分鐘"},{"start":26415.7,"end":26417.7,"text":"最慢讓你1小時"},{"start":26417.7,"end":26419.7,"text":"就可以做所有的數據都知道的"},{"start":26421.07,"end":26423.07,"text":"我為什麼敢這麼說"},{"start":26424.04,"end":26426.04,"text":"團善於的在最早"},{"start":26426.77,"end":26428.77,"text":"是我那時候"},{"start":26428.77,"end":26430.77,"text":"帶領團隊跟團隊一起建"},{"start":26431.55,"end":26433.55,"text":"所以那個叫校園食材登入的系統"},{"start":26434.77,"end":26436.77,"text":"主要的話他只要是食材有問題"},{"start":26436.77,"end":26438.77,"text":"所有的團善餐廳業者"},{"start":26438.77,"end":26440.77,"text":"哪些學校會用到全部都知道"},{"start":26440.77,"end":26442.77,"text":"所以你可以去看教育部的這個"},{"start":26442.77,"end":26444.77,"text":"報告他其實就很清楚"},{"start":26444.77,"end":26446.77,"text":"以前要追一個禮拜追不出來"},{"start":26446.77,"end":26448.77,"text":"追兩個禮拜追不出來"},{"start":26448.77,"end":26450.77,"text":"現在是20分鐘30分鐘以內"},{"start":26450.77,"end":26452.77,"text":"就追出來"},{"start":26452.77,"end":26454.77,"text":"所以我覺得這一塊地方是"},{"start":26455.36,"end":26457.36,"text":"要去好好地檢討"},{"start":26458.14,"end":26460.14,"text":"然後你們會寫一堆喔"},{"start":26460.49,"end":26462.49,"text":"寫一堆非常偉大的KPI"},{"start":26462.49,"end":26464.49,"text":"這個我就算了因為時間的問題"},{"start":26464.49,"end":26466.49,"text":"所以基本上你的追溯就有問題"},{"start":26468.35,"end":26470.35,"text":"因為你沒有系統的幫忙"},{"start":26470.35,"end":26472.35,"text":"或是系統是建在那邊當好看的"},{"start":26472.35,"end":26474.35,"text":"花拳繡腿"},{"start":26474.83,"end":26476.83,"text":"然後呢你在看的話就是"},{"start":26476.83,"end":26478.83,"text":"你們也給我寫很多啊"},{"start":26478.83,"end":26480.83,"text":"這KPI寫得很漂亮喔"},{"start":26481.23,"end":26485.23,"text":"官方宣稱建立594種風險組合模型"},{"start":26485.23,"end":26488.23,"text":"還跟我說有優先稽查業者名單"},{"start":26488.23,"end":26492.23,"text":"然後呢每年KPI百分之百都達標"},{"start":26492.23,"end":26495.23,"text":"在你們的這個KPI"},{"start":26495.23,"end":26497.23,"text":"我也把你們的這些之前過去的"},{"start":26497.23,"end":26499.23,"text":"這些的報告官方就拿起來看"},{"start":26500.89,"end":26502.89,"text":"就讓我覺得非常的ridiculous"},{"start":26506.79,"end":26508.79,"text":"好那為什麼這麼說呢"},{"start":26508.79,"end":26510.79,"text":"因為呢你知道嗎"},{"start":26510.79,"end":26512.79,"text":"我覺得這個資訊系統"},{"start":26512.79,"end":26514.79,"text":"我們是很早就花了錢"},{"start":26514.79,"end":26516.79,"text":"而且有品是我們第一個列入的喔"},{"start":26517.1,"end":26519.1,"text":"我這個要讓部長知道"},{"start":26519.1,"end":26521.1,"text":"有品是因為那時候最早對不對"},{"start":26521.1,"end":26523.1,"text":"第一批點心獨有"},{"start":26523.1,"end":26525.1,"text":"甚至包含同業數的那個時候的事件"},{"start":26525.1,"end":26527.1,"text":"所以那時候我們在做這件事情的時候"},{"start":26527.1,"end":26529.1,"text":"全部都是被要求"},{"start":26528.22,"end":26530.22,"text":"有品直接列入第一優先"},{"start":26531.92,"end":26533.92,"text":"可是今天還發生這種事情"},{"start":26533.92,"end":26535.92,"text":"然後系統的這樣子的"},{"start":26535.92,"end":26537.92,"text":"我不要說事先查核啦"},{"start":26537.92,"end":26539.92,"text":"我覺得你們有時候寫的KPI是很劃虎劃然"},{"start":26541.22,"end":26543.22,"text":"就是"},{"start":26542.65,"end":26544.65,"text":"因為要怎麼去做預先風景"},{"start":26544.65,"end":26546.65,"text":"然後瘋狂寫了一堆就是為了AI去做"},{"start":26546.65,"end":26547.65,"text":"這我都不管"},{"start":26547.65,"end":26549.65,"text":"但我care的是非燈"},{"start":26551.88,"end":26553.88,"text":"那確實"},{"start":26553.33,"end":26555.33,"text":"然後非追嘛"},{"start":26555.33,"end":26557.33,"text":"你追溯一下啦應該是20分鐘30分鐘"},{"start":26557.33,"end":26559.33,"text":"就結束了"},{"start":26560.52,"end":26562.52,"text":"所以那時候我們在做團戰"},{"start":26562.52,"end":26564.52,"text":"整個這個東西是整個這樣下來"},{"start":26564.52,"end":26566.52,"text":"從以前的兩三個月追不出來"},{"start":26566.52,"end":26568.52,"text":"兩個禮拜最後到現在是20分鐘30分鐘"},{"start":26568.52,"end":26570.52,"text":"那時候才有辦法再去接"},{"start":26570.52,"end":26572.52,"text":"回溯"},{"start":26572.52,"end":26574.52,"text":"就是我們農業部那個國產食材的三張EQ"},{"start":26574.52,"end":26576.52,"text":"那時候花了很多功夫打到這邊"},{"start":26576.52,"end":26578.52,"text":"我們那時候就想說"},{"start":26578.52,"end":26580.52,"text":"既然已經有這個東西了"},{"start":26580.52,"end":26582.52,"text":"將來他做為你的這些不管食品"},{"start":26582.52,"end":26584.52,"text":"或者什麼仿效的核心"},{"start":26584.52,"end":26586.52,"text":"應該是可以弄得很好"},{"start":26586.83,"end":26588.83,"text":"這個是我期待的"},{"start":26588.83,"end":26590.83,"text":"這多久了大概是108年"},{"start":26590.83,"end":26592.83,"text":"10幾年的時候"},{"start":26592.83,"end":26594.83,"text":"所以講的是我10年前"},{"start":26597.14,"end":26599.14,"text":"做的事情"},{"start":26599.14,"end":26601.14,"text":"可是我今天還發生這個以身為一個資訊系統"},{"start":26601.14,"end":26603.14,"text":"看你們花這麼多錢的角度來看"},{"start":26603.14,"end":26605.14,"text":"我是有點心痛"},{"start":26606.39,"end":26608.39,"text":"不然我們這件事情是可以很快就釐清的"},{"start":26608.39,"end":26610.39,"text":"好不好"},{"start":26610.39,"end":26612.39,"text":"這個是我的問題"},{"start":26612.39,"end":26614.39,"text":"所以我希望以後"},{"start":26614.39,"end":26616.39,"text":"像我那時候在訂都是在訂這件事情"},{"start":26617.68,"end":26619.68,"text":"幾小時內掌握流向"},{"start":26619.68,"end":26621.68,"text":"幾小時內完成下架"},{"start":26621.68,"end":26623.68,"text":"你的生產頓速跟你消耗的頓速"},{"start":26623.68,"end":26625.68,"text":"那到底有沒有對得起來"},{"start":26625.68,"end":26627.68,"text":"全部都可以集合的出來"},{"start":26627.68,"end":26629.68,"text":"至於說你會用AI"},{"start":26629.68,"end":26631.68,"text":"怎麼樣去大風險"},{"start":26631.68,"end":26633.68,"text":"我覺得那個可能在這種事件還另當別論"},{"start":26633.68,"end":26635.68,"text":"那我也支持你們"},{"start":26635.68,"end":26637.68,"text":"未來第三方或是自己的檢測"},{"start":26637.68,"end":26639.68,"text":"他所有都要上網"},{"start":26639.68,"end":26641.68,"text":"而且你要求他們"},{"start":26641.68,"end":26643.68,"text":"不要每個這些廠商都是用這個什麼"},{"start":26643.68,"end":26645.68,"text":"都是用人工這樣把你登錄上海"},{"start":26645.68,"end":26647.68,"text":"他是直接透過他的檢驗系統"},{"start":26647.68,"end":26649.68,"text":"系統對系統對接"},{"start":26649.68,"end":26651.68,"text":"API開放給你"},{"start":26651.68,"end":26653.68,"text":"就上來了"},{"start":26653.68,"end":26655.68,"text":"甚至他的ERP MRP的資料"},{"start":26655.68,"end":26657.68,"text":"直接上來也行"},{"start":26657.68,"end":26659.68,"text":"要確實執行力"},{"start":26659.68,"end":26661.68,"text":"不然我就會覺得你會變成這個樣子"},{"start":26663.22,"end":26665.22,"text":"最後啦這個是我宇宙行長寫的"},{"start":26666.82,"end":26668.82,"text":"所以你的食安飲是變事後飲"},{"start":26668.82,"end":26670.82,"text":"我們的人工智慧是變工人智慧"},{"start":26672.54,"end":26674.54,"text":"人家是化腐朽為神奇"},{"start":26674.54,"end":26676.54,"text":"你是化神奇為腐朽"},{"start":26677.33,"end":26679.33,"text":"最後我們就會請石南安"},{"start":26679.33,"end":26681.33,"text":"我會把那個石換成你的姓"},{"start":26681.33,"end":26683.33,"text":"給你一個建議"},{"start":26683.33,"end":26685.33,"text":"我們就要好好去把系統做改善"},{"start":26685.33,"end":26687.33,"text":"好不好"},{"start":26687.33,"end":26689.33,"text":"如果有什麼可以幫忙的就跟我們說"},{"start":26689.33,"end":26691.33,"text":"我們科技界都非常願意幫忙這件事情"},{"start":26691.33,"end":26693.33,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26693.33,"end":26695.33,"text":"當然我們未來這個剛剛跟委員報告"},{"start":26695.33,"end":26697.33,"text":"這幾年的食安飲他在"},{"start":26697.33,"end":26699.33,"text":"擴大他的品相"},{"start":26699.33,"end":26701.33,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":26700.97,"end":26702.97,"text":"還是停留在製造業"},{"start":26703.45,"end":26705.45,"text":"沒有再往下"},{"start":26705.45,"end":26707.45,"text":"他是從原料"},{"start":26707.45,"end":26709.45,"text":"原頭入關"},{"start":26709.45,"end":26711.45,"text":"原料的提供一直到"},{"start":26711.45,"end":26713.45,"text":"製造業還沒有再往下的"},{"start":26713.45,"end":26715.45,"text":"販售業"},{"start":26715.45,"end":26717.45,"text":"所以我們第一刻能夠掌握的量"},{"start":26717.45,"end":26719.45,"text":"到製造業都沒有問題"},{"start":26719.45,"end":26721.45,"text":"我覺得還不是到販售都沒有問題"},{"start":26721.45,"end":26723.45,"text":"因為我是覺得說"},{"start":26723.45,"end":26725.45,"text":"如果你是有像這個4月4號品質"},{"start":26725.45,"end":26727.45,"text":"到你真的發生的時候"},{"start":26727.45,"end":26729.45,"text":"其實他不是要用天算的"},{"start":26729.45,"end":26731.45,"text":"他應該是幾小時就弄完了"},{"start":26731.45,"end":26733.45,"text":"我們假設先不管製造"},{"start":26733.45,"end":26735.45,"text":"就是從你的上游到下游"},{"start":26735.45,"end":26737.45,"text":"多少批次多少量往哪邊出去的話"},{"start":26737.45,"end":26739.45,"text":"你應該是幾小時就做完了"},{"start":26740.49,"end":26742.49,"text":"這個是我concern的"},{"start":26742.49,"end":26744.49,"text":"這樣可以嗎"},{"start":26744.49,"end":26746.49,"text":"我們以這個為目標"},{"start":26746.49,"end":26748.49,"text":"雖然你們號稱都做很多"},{"start":26748.49,"end":26750.49,"text":"但我覺得就執行力的問題"},{"start":26750.49,"end":26752.49,"text":"確實好不好"},{"start":26752.49,"end":26754.49,"text":"接下來就是那個檢驗系統"},{"start":26754.49,"end":26756.49,"text":"如果直接借接上來"},{"start":26756.49,"end":26758.49,"text":"這樣會更確實"},{"start":26758.49,"end":26760.49,"text":"才不會作假"},{"start":26760.49,"end":26762.49,"text":"這個才能夠更即時"},{"start":26762.49,"end":26764.49,"text":"這個我們會往這個方向"},{"start":26764.49,"end":26766.49,"text":"就是你寫的都很好"},{"start":26766.49,"end":26768.49,"text":"非登不可非追不可"},{"start":26768.49,"end":26770.49,"text":"但是就是有沒有登"},{"start":26770.49,"end":26774.49,"text":"你沒有登就不會追得到"},{"start":26774.49,"end":26776.49,"text":"你的回溯勾機"},{"start":26776.49,"end":26778.49,"text":"這些才有辦法出來"},{"start":26778.49,"end":26780.49,"text":"羽衆心腸"},{"start":26780.49,"end":26782.49,"text":"我們科技界都願意幫忙"},{"start":26782.49,"end":26784.49,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":26784.49,"end":26786.49,"text":"謝謝孔育小維的諮詢"},{"start":26788.25,"end":26790.25,"text":"現在請羅志強委員諮詢"},{"start":26799.39,"end":26801.39,"text":"主席有請次長"},{"start":26801.24,"end":26803.24,"text":"有請司成良部長"},{"start":26807.62,"end":26809.62,"text":"各位委員好"},{"start":26809.73,"end":26811.73,"text":"部長好"},{"start":26812.38,"end":26814.38,"text":"本篇批號"},{"start":26814.38,"end":26816.38,"text":"一級致癌物"},{"start":26816.38,"end":26818.38,"text":"人民天天吃下肚"},{"start":26817.61,"end":26819.61,"text":"我想請教部長覺得人民擔不擔心"},{"start":26820.8,"end":26822.8,"text":"這個對這些致癌當然大家都擔心"},{"start":26822.8,"end":26824.8,"text":"身為父母擔不擔心"},{"start":26825.63,"end":26827.63,"text":"當然都擔心"},{"start":26827.63,"end":26829.63,"text":"我告訴你"},{"start":26829.63,"end":26831.63,"text":"我們的官員發明了三金句"},{"start":26831.63,"end":26833.63,"text":"真的每天吃飯前"},{"start":26833.63,"end":26835.63,"text":"默念這三金句"},{"start":26835.63,"end":26837.63,"text":"就不用擔心了"},{"start":26837.63,"end":26839.63,"text":"擔心都是多餘的"},{"start":26842.25,"end":26844.25,"text":"吃飯前默念官員三金句"},{"start":26844.25,"end":26846.25,"text":"保證百毒不侵"},{"start":26846.25,"end":26848.25,"text":"你知道哪三個金句嗎"},{"start":26849.13,"end":26851.13,"text":"這個我只要告訴你"},{"start":26852.02,"end":26854.02,"text":"沒人逼你吃"},{"start":26854.4,"end":26856.4,"text":"別吃炸雞排"},{"start":26856.46,"end":26858.46,"text":"多喝水沒事"},{"start":26859.11,"end":26861.11,"text":"聽過這三句吧"},{"start":26861.81,"end":26863.81,"text":"沒聽過也看過新聞吧"},{"start":26863.81,"end":26865.81,"text":"對新聞上有"},{"start":26866.97,"end":26868.97,"text":"部長當然這三金句都不是出自你口啦"},{"start":26870.68,"end":26872.68,"text":"可是你覺得聽在人民的耳中"},{"start":26872.68,"end":26874.68,"text":"聽這三句金句"},{"start":26876.25,"end":26878.25,"text":"你覺得聽得進去嗎"},{"start":26878.25,"end":26880.25,"text":"聽得下去嗎"},{"start":26878.99,"end":26880.99,"text":"是不是吃飯前"},{"start":26880.99,"end":26882.99,"text":"默念這三金句"},{"start":26882.99,"end":26884.99,"text":"我們就不用害怕本便宜啦"},{"start":26884.99,"end":26886.99,"text":"吃太多也不用怕啦"},{"start":26886.39,"end":26890.39,"text":"念完這三金句毒品油的事情就解決了嗎"},{"start":26891.47,"end":26893.47,"text":"這個"},{"start":26892.67,"end":26894.67,"text":"油品的安全"},{"start":26894.67,"end":26896.67,"text":"食安都是我們的責任"},{"start":26896.67,"end":26898.67,"text":"我們都要去做"},{"start":26898.67,"end":26900.67,"text":"面對這樣的事件"},{"start":26900.67,"end":26902.67,"text":"我直接跟部長說啦"},{"start":26903.52,"end":26905.52,"text":"面對毒油風暴"},{"start":26905.95,"end":26907.95,"text":"最不需要就是幹話"},{"start":26909.09,"end":26911.09,"text":"最不需要就是幹話"},{"start":26911.62,"end":26913.62,"text":"其中一個幹話是你們次長講"},{"start":26914.83,"end":26916.83,"text":"好接下來請教您"},{"start":26918.14,"end":26924.14,"text":"衛福部宣布中聯今年4月到6月生產的30批大豆沙拉油"},{"start":26924.14,"end":26926.14,"text":"有19批"},{"start":26926.14,"end":26930.14,"text":"你們確認符合食品安全標準要重新上架"},{"start":26930.14,"end":26932.14,"text":"對不對"},{"start":26932.14,"end":26934.14,"text":"這是誰的決策是卓文泰院長拍板的嗎"},{"start":26934.94,"end":26938.94,"text":"沒有這個在我們宣布預防性下架的時候"},{"start":26938.94,"end":26942.94,"text":"那麼因為當時候中聯的資料有問題"},{"start":26942.94,"end":26946.94,"text":"所以我們為了趕快讓這個民眾能夠安心"},{"start":26946.94,"end":26948.94,"text":"所以我們在7月9號就宣布"},{"start":26949.79,"end":26951.79,"text":"4到6月先預防性下架"},{"start":26951.79,"end":26953.79,"text":"那等我們驗完之後如果合格的"},{"start":26953.79,"end":26955.79,"text":"再來重新上架"},{"start":26955.79,"end":26957.79,"text":"所以我們後來也按照我們當時候的這個"},{"start":26957.79,"end":26959.79,"text":"因為他們是合格的產品"},{"start":26959.79,"end":26961.79,"text":"當時候是因為沒有辦法確認"},{"start":26961.79,"end":26963.79,"text":"因為中聯的sample"},{"start":26963.79,"end":26965.79,"text":"他的樣本我們驗起來都合格"},{"start":26965.79,"end":26967.79,"text":"可是下游驗出來竟然出現"},{"start":26967.79,"end":26969.79,"text":"下游驗出來竟然出現"},{"start":26970.16,"end":26972.16,"text":"資料不對接"},{"start":26972.16,"end":26974.16,"text":"所以我們才會擴大到4到6月"},{"start":26974.16,"end":26976.16,"text":"所以我們才叫做預防性下架"},{"start":26976.16,"end":26978.16,"text":"你剛剛這個說法你這一整天都在說"},{"start":26978.16,"end":26980.16,"text":"我有聽到"},{"start":26980.16,"end":26982.16,"text":"我想請教你"},{"start":26982.16,"end":26984.16,"text":"毒油發生的原因現在離清了嗎"},{"start":26984.16,"end":26986.16,"text":"完全離清了嗎"},{"start":26986.16,"end":26988.16,"text":"我們昨天的專家進入到"},{"start":26988.16,"end":26990.16,"text":"最後的確認"},{"start":26990.16,"end":26992.16,"text":"還沒離清"},{"start":26992.16,"end":26994.16,"text":"已經離清了"},{"start":26994.16,"end":26996.16,"text":"現在我們大概這個禮拜"},{"start":26996.16,"end":26998.16,"text":"報告正式報告就會出來"},{"start":26998.16,"end":27000.16,"text":"禮拜正式報告出來"},{"start":27000.16,"end":27002.16,"text":"報告出來跟大家國人報告一下"},{"start":27002.16,"end":27004.16,"text":"我要告訴我們部長"},{"start":27005.58,"end":27007.58,"text":"我想要請教你為什麼不等報告出來"},{"start":27007.58,"end":27009.58,"text":"你再開始取信於民"},{"start":27010.24,"end":27014.24,"text":"然後你再開始進行所謂的重新上架的做法"},{"start":27014.24,"end":27016.24,"text":"我想問一下這段話誰說的你記不記得"},{"start":27016.24,"end":27018.24,"text":"你知不知道"},{"start":27018.24,"end":27020.24,"text":"要了解批號所有狀況資訊"},{"start":27020.8,"end":27022.8,"text":"真相清楚才準上架"},{"start":27022.8,"end":27024.8,"text":"最後誰說的"},{"start":27024.5,"end":27026.5,"text":"這個批號我們完全都掌握清楚了"},{"start":27026.5,"end":27028.5,"text":"你跟我講這個禮拜報告才會出來"},{"start":27028.5,"end":27030.5,"text":"出來的沒有"},{"start":27030.5,"end":27032.5,"text":"不過這個每一個批次我們都"},{"start":27032.5,"end":27034.5,"text":"我講的不是你講這19個"},{"start":27034.5,"end":27036.5,"text":"我講的是整件事情"},{"start":27036.5,"end":27038.5,"text":"你要告訴我所以真相已經完全離清了"},{"start":27038.5,"end":27040.5,"text":"問題有的到底是來源在哪裡"},{"start":27041.85,"end":27043.85,"text":"流向在哪裡全部都清楚了"},{"start":27043.85,"end":27045.85,"text":"是嗎這個意思嗎"},{"start":27045.85,"end":27047.85,"text":"多少吃進國人肚子裡都清楚了"},{"start":27047.85,"end":27049.85,"text":"是這個意思嗎"},{"start":27049.85,"end":27051.85,"text":"這個事件為什麼會產生"},{"start":27051.85,"end":27053.85,"text":"BAP偏高這個問題"},{"start":27053.85,"end":27055.85,"text":"請問你既然說真相都清楚了"},{"start":27055.85,"end":27057.85,"text":"這個禮拜報告就能出來"},{"start":27057.85,"end":27059.85,"text":"對不對"},{"start":27059.85,"end":27061.85,"text":"請問到底有百分之多"},{"start":27061.85,"end":27063.85,"text":"現在到底問題有多少你們掌握的"},{"start":27064.56,"end":27066.56,"text":"這個7批"},{"start":27066.56,"end":27068.56,"text":"這個7批的數量"},{"start":27068.56,"end":27070.56,"text":"我們是掌握了"},{"start":27071.48,"end":27073.48,"text":"8000多"},{"start":27073.48,"end":27075.48,"text":"8000多公盾"},{"start":27075.48,"end":27077.48,"text":"然後回收的目前是2700"},{"start":27077.48,"end":27079.48,"text":"我想請教你"},{"start":27079.97,"end":27081.97,"text":"多少吃進人的肚子裡面了"},{"start":27082.52,"end":27084.52,"text":"百分之多少"},{"start":27084.07,"end":27086.07,"text":"因為以現在這樣的比例而言"},{"start":27086.07,"end":27088.07,"text":"大概是30%左右"},{"start":27088.07,"end":27090.07,"text":"但是其餘的"},{"start":27090.07,"end":27092.07,"text":"有些現在他已經丟棄了"},{"start":27093.89,"end":27095.89,"text":"就是30%左右"},{"start":27095.89,"end":27097.89,"text":"大概多少公盾吃進人的肚子裡"},{"start":27097.89,"end":27099.89,"text":"因為他是有的是以"},{"start":27099.89,"end":27101.89,"text":"這個油炸的方式"},{"start":27101.89,"end":27103.89,"text":"油炸油的方式在使用"},{"start":27103.89,"end":27105.89,"text":"所以他會丟棄"},{"start":27105.89,"end":27107.89,"text":"你既然已經確定"},{"start":27107.89,"end":27109.89,"text":"有多少公盾有問題"},{"start":27109.89,"end":27111.89,"text":"你說30%吃進人的肚子裡"},{"start":27111.89,"end":27113.89,"text":"那不是就乘以30%"},{"start":27113.89,"end":27115.89,"text":"你就可以算進多少公盾"},{"start":27115.89,"end":27117.89,"text":"因為他不是直接都是食用"},{"start":27117.89,"end":27119.89,"text":"因為他有的是會棄置"},{"start":27119.89,"end":27121.89,"text":"會變成廢棄物了"},{"start":27121.89,"end":27123.89,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法"},{"start":27123.89,"end":27125.89,"text":"去算這個回收量"},{"start":27125.89,"end":27127.89,"text":"不咋"},{"start":27129.06,"end":27131.06,"text":"這些所謂的道"},{"start":27131.4,"end":27133.4,"text":"這個我們商家開始調理以後"},{"start":27135.15,"end":27137.15,"text":"就是提供人民吃了多少"},{"start":27137.15,"end":27139.15,"text":"你到現在答案是告訴你也不知道"},{"start":27140.13,"end":27142.13,"text":"多少是棄置多少是進到人的肚子"},{"start":27142.13,"end":27144.13,"text":"你不知道嘛"},{"start":27144.08,"end":27146.08,"text":"所以你不要拍胸部告訴我說"},{"start":27146.08,"end":27148.08,"text":"你所有的真相全部查清楚了"},{"start":27148.08,"end":27150.08,"text":"那我再講上游你說查清楚了"},{"start":27150.08,"end":27152.08,"text":"上游的源頭到底是什麼"},{"start":27153.68,"end":27155.68,"text":"就是他的我們從他的這個"},{"start":27155.68,"end":27157.68,"text":"我們檢驗出的不合格的批次"},{"start":27157.68,"end":27159.68,"text":"去對照他整個製程"},{"start":27159.68,"end":27161.68,"text":"跟他的原料品質"},{"start":27161.68,"end":27163.68,"text":"那是誰啊"},{"start":27163.68,"end":27165.68,"text":"那所以有幾批他的這個原料的品質"},{"start":27165.68,"end":27167.68,"text":"比較差"},{"start":27169.15,"end":27171.15,"text":"那就是巴西的豆子"},{"start":27171.15,"end":27173.15,"text":"然後再加上他製程上"},{"start":27173.15,"end":27175.15,"text":"沒有去精煉"},{"start":27175.15,"end":27177.15,"text":"達標所以造成他最後的"},{"start":27177.15,"end":27179.15,"text":"這個數值"},{"start":27180.59,"end":27182.59,"text":"你光跟我講的到這一段"},{"start":27182.59,"end":27184.59,"text":"說真的也沒呈現在報告裡面"},{"start":27184.59,"end":27186.59,"text":"你說你的報告到這個禮拜才會出來"},{"start":27188.1,"end":27190.1,"text":"那我下一個就要問啦"},{"start":27190.1,"end":27192.1,"text":"我剛剛講了解批號真相搞清楚"},{"start":27192.1,"end":27194.1,"text":"才能上架這話誰說的"},{"start":27194.1,"end":27196.1,"text":"你知道誰說的嗎"},{"start":27196.12,"end":27198.12,"text":"這句話陳其邁說的"},{"start":27198.33,"end":27200.33,"text":"你現在重新上架這件事情"},{"start":27200.33,"end":27202.33,"text":"我想請問一下"},{"start":27202.23,"end":27204.23,"text":"中央跟地方"},{"start":27204.23,"end":27206.23,"text":"到底在這件事上有沒有共識啊"},{"start":27207.71,"end":27209.71,"text":"這個我們完成了這個"},{"start":27209.71,"end":27211.71,"text":"科學的檢驗確認了"},{"start":27211.71,"end":27213.71,"text":"你不是又開了一堆會議"},{"start":27213.71,"end":27215.71,"text":"把地方首長找上來"},{"start":27215.71,"end":27217.71,"text":"有沒有共識啊"},{"start":27217.53,"end":27219.53,"text":"會議當中有沒有跟地方首長溝通啊"},{"start":27219.53,"end":27221.53,"text":"有沒有跟陳其邁溝通嘛"},{"start":27222.46,"end":27224.46,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":27224.46,"end":27226.46,"text":"當然我們現在是從我們"},{"start":27226.46,"end":27228.46,"text":"檢驗的結果去"},{"start":27228.46,"end":27230.46,"text":"確認哪些批次是安全的"},{"start":27230.46,"end":27232.46,"text":"但是"},{"start":27232.46,"end":27234.46,"text":"如果地方有他自己的考量"},{"start":27234.46,"end":27236.46,"text":"您還是沒有回答我的問題啊"},{"start":27236.99,"end":27238.99,"text":"我要問部長"},{"start":27238.99,"end":27240.99,"text":"所以堅決不會撤回你重新上架的政策嗎"},{"start":27240.99,"end":27242.99,"text":"堅決不會撤回"},{"start":27242.99,"end":27244.99,"text":"即便陳其邁這樣講"},{"start":27244.99,"end":27246.99,"text":"即便蔣萬安跟台中市長盧秀燕都表達疑慮"},{"start":27246.99,"end":27248.99,"text":"人民的信心人民的安全感"},{"start":27248.99,"end":27250.99,"text":"覺得應該永遠放在第一優先順位"},{"start":27250.99,"end":27252.99,"text":"等你的所有報導全部公諸"},{"start":27252.99,"end":27254.99,"text":"真相公布之後"},{"start":27254.99,"end":27256.99,"text":"你再來讓社會大眾來決定"},{"start":27256.99,"end":27258.99,"text":"要不要同意你重新上架"},{"start":27258.99,"end":27260.99,"text":"這個政策你不會改變啊"},{"start":27260.99,"end":27262.99,"text":"因為這些批次我們都已經確認完成了"},{"start":27262.99,"end":27264.99,"text":"他的"},{"start":27264.99,"end":27266.99,"text":"是達標的"},{"start":27266.99,"end":27268.99,"text":"他是合格的商品"},{"start":27269.52,"end":27271.52,"text":"我跟部長說啦"},{"start":27272.16,"end":27274.16,"text":"你口口聲聲說這些都安全"},{"start":27274.16,"end":27276.16,"text":"都是達標"},{"start":27275.99,"end":27277.99,"text":"的商品"},{"start":27277.34,"end":27279.34,"text":"可今天整個衛福部"},{"start":27279.34,"end":27281.34,"text":"為什麼開始讓人民"},{"start":27281.34,"end":27283.34,"text":"覺得對你們講的話"},{"start":27283.34,"end":27285.34,"text":"已經要打上問號"},{"start":27286.2,"end":27288.2,"text":"打上問號不是直接否定你講的話不可信"},{"start":27289.62,"end":27291.62,"text":"而是我不知道該不該信"},{"start":27292.66,"end":27294.66,"text":"因為從毒油風暴發生到現在"},{"start":27296.56,"end":27298.56,"text":"對不對"},{"start":27297.49,"end":27299.49,"text":"二十幾天"},{"start":27299.7,"end":27301.7,"text":"我發現"},{"start":27301.74,"end":27303.74,"text":"看到我們的行政官員"},{"start":27303.9,"end":27305.9,"text":"外面看到的是什麼"},{"start":27305.9,"end":27307.9,"text":"壓力到哪裡"},{"start":27307.16,"end":27309.16,"text":"就是做法到哪裡啊"},{"start":27309.69,"end":27311.69,"text":"我舉個例子725人民就要上"},{"start":27311.69,"end":27313.69,"text":"改道抗議了"},{"start":27313.69,"end":27315.69,"text":"抗議什麼"},{"start":27315.75,"end":27317.75,"text":"抗議這個食安風暴嘛"},{"start":27318.97,"end":27320.97,"text":"如果沒有725人民抗議食安風暴"},{"start":27320.97,"end":27322.97,"text":"我想請問"},{"start":27323.88,"end":27325.88,"text":"今天行政院說要開始"},{"start":27325.88,"end":27327.88,"text":"做修法工作"},{"start":27328.27,"end":27330.27,"text":"開記者會"},{"start":27330.27,"end":27332.27,"text":"要來做修法"},{"start":27332.16,"end":27334.16,"text":"我很好奇耶"},{"start":27334.16,"end":27336.16,"text":"如果人民沒有要上改道"},{"start":27336.16,"end":27338.16,"text":"你們會去做這件事嗎"},{"start":27338.16,"end":27340.16,"text":"我光問一件事情"},{"start":27340.16,"end":27342.16,"text":"省級部多久就告訴行政部門"},{"start":27342.16,"end":27344.16,"text":"我們的整個食安有漏洞"},{"start":27344.16,"end":27346.16,"text":"省級部什麼時候講的"},{"start":27345.36,"end":27347.36,"text":"省級部的報告"},{"start":27347.36,"end":27349.36,"text":"你看省級部講什麼你也不知道"},{"start":27349.71,"end":27351.71,"text":"你作為主管機關"},{"start":27351.71,"end":27353.71,"text":"省級部兩年前就已經告訴你"},{"start":27353.71,"end":27355.71,"text":"自主管理有漏洞"},{"start":27356.68,"end":27358.68,"text":"然後呢你的所謂的"},{"start":27358.68,"end":27360.68,"text":"複查的覆蓋有問題"},{"start":27360.7,"end":27362.7,"text":"食安有破口"},{"start":27363.48,"end":27365.48,"text":"可是這兩年到現在部長"},{"start":27366.02,"end":27368.02,"text":"我問省級部的報告"},{"start":27368.97,"end":27370.97,"text":"你們回去看一下好不好"},{"start":27370.97,"end":27372.97,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":27372.97,"end":27374.97,"text":"回去看一下吧"},{"start":27374.47,"end":27376.47,"text":"今天分幾個層次跟部長說"},{"start":27379.21,"end":27381.21,"text":"第一個層次是什麼"},{"start":27381.21,"end":27383.21,"text":"第二個層次當然"},{"start":27382.47,"end":27384.47,"text":"制度跟"},{"start":27384.06,"end":27386.06,"text":"系統有漏洞"},{"start":27386.06,"end":27388.06,"text":"要從制度系統去改嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":27388.51,"end":27390.51,"text":"對不對補強改進嘛"},{"start":27390.51,"end":27392.51,"text":"對不對"},{"start":27392.51,"end":27394.51,"text":"但行政管理有疏失"},{"start":27395.43,"end":27397.43,"text":"那就要去追究嘛"},{"start":27397.52,"end":27399.52,"text":"是不是"},{"start":27400.02,"end":27402.02,"text":"所以"},{"start":27401.07,"end":27403.07,"text":"你今天看到系統的問題"},{"start":27403.07,"end":27405.07,"text":"兩年前省級部就已經警示了"},{"start":27407.88,"end":27409.88,"text":"沒有洞啊"},{"start":27409.88,"end":27411.88,"text":"現在好都說推給是業者隱匿"},{"start":27412.84,"end":27414.84,"text":"業者隱匿本來就有責任"},{"start":27414.84,"end":27416.84,"text":"在現在法治之下有沒有責任"},{"start":27416.88,"end":27418.88,"text":"一樣有嘛"},{"start":27418.88,"end":27420.88,"text":"對這個明定在食安法裡"},{"start":27421.79,"end":27423.79,"text":"法律都在"},{"start":27424.07,"end":27426.07,"text":"但是屠法要能行"},{"start":27426.19,"end":27428.19,"text":"就是行政機關要執行"},{"start":27428.94,"end":27430.94,"text":"可今天行政機關放任"},{"start":27430.94,"end":27432.94,"text":"今天省級部兩年前的預警"},{"start":27432.94,"end":27434.94,"text":"示警沒有作為"},{"start":27435.34,"end":27437.34,"text":"現在行政管理上"},{"start":27438.17,"end":27440.17,"text":"不管怎麼講啦"},{"start":27440.17,"end":27442.17,"text":"我就看你們很多解釋"},{"start":27442.17,"end":27444.17,"text":"一開始不肯公佈產品流向"},{"start":27444.17,"end":27446.17,"text":"然後等到問題擴大"},{"start":27446.17,"end":27448.17,"text":"又跟我講說20%以下"},{"start":27448.17,"end":27450.17,"text":"一樣還是准許上架"},{"start":27450.17,"end":27452.17,"text":"然後接下來全部不能上架"},{"start":27452.17,"end":27454.17,"text":"接下來預防性下降"},{"start":27454.17,"end":27456.17,"text":"現在要重新上架"},{"start":27456.03,"end":27458.03,"text":"這整個過程部長你將心比心"},{"start":27458.03,"end":27460.03,"text":"你跟我位置換過來"},{"start":27460.03,"end":27462.03,"text":"你今天站在父母親"},{"start":27462.03,"end":27464.03,"text":"跟站在所謂的一般人民的立場來看的話"},{"start":27465.44,"end":27467.44,"text":"你覺得你會安心嗎"},{"start":27468.21,"end":27470.21,"text":"你覺得今天衛福部整個過程的做法當中"},{"start":27470.21,"end":27472.21,"text":"沒有值得檢討跟改進的地方嗎"},{"start":27472.21,"end":27474.21,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":27474.21,"end":27476.21,"text":"當然有值得檢討的地方"},{"start":27476.21,"end":27478.21,"text":"但是我也不要"},{"start":27478.21,"end":27480.21,"text":"來你們的檢討檢討在哪裡"},{"start":27480.21,"end":27482.21,"text":"跟委員的感受是一樣"},{"start":27482.21,"end":27484.21,"text":"所以為了讓大家安心才會"},{"start":27484.21,"end":27486.21,"text":"提早就4到6月"},{"start":27486.21,"end":27488.21,"text":"讓他全面性的預防性下架"},{"start":27488.21,"end":27490.21,"text":"這個對於合格的商品"},{"start":27490.21,"end":27492.21,"text":"當時候"},{"start":27492.21,"end":27494.21,"text":"我們也是讓他先下架"},{"start":27494.21,"end":27496.21,"text":"因為我們會後頭確認"},{"start":27496.21,"end":27498.21,"text":"假如今天不是社會壓力大到一個程度"},{"start":27498.21,"end":27500.21,"text":"你開始採取預防性下"},{"start":27500.21,"end":27502.21,"text":"你自己就先做了"},{"start":27502.59,"end":27504.59,"text":"那我也不會說你"},{"start":27504.59,"end":27506.59,"text":"外界也不會有一個懷疑是"},{"start":27506.59,"end":27508.59,"text":"這叫做切香腸的擠牙"},{"start":27508.59,"end":27510.59,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":27510.59,"end":27512.59,"text":"這是因為我們調查的過程發現"},{"start":27512.59,"end":27514.59,"text":"他的資料有做假"},{"start":27514.59,"end":27515.59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49.02,"end":28553.02,"text":"配偶代繳保險費以及罰鍰的規定"},{"start":28553.02,"end":28555.02,"text":"那麼回歸夫妻財務獨立"},{"start":28555.02,"end":28557.02,"text":"這會彰顯性別平等"},{"start":28557.02,"end":28561.02,"text":"以及第55條規定擴大專戶的保障範圍"},{"start":28561.02,"end":28563.02,"text":"於均保留續審"},{"start":28563.02,"end":28565.02,"text":"那麼在此期間大院委員持續關心"},{"start":28565.02,"end":28567.02,"text":"國民聯軍議題陸續提案"},{"start":28567.02,"end":28572.02,"text":"本次報告緊救委員賴會員等23人凝聚"},{"start":28572.02,"end":28574.02,"text":"國民聯軍法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":28574.02,"end":28576.02,"text":"繼36案提出說明"},{"start":28576.02,"end":28578.02,"text":"那麼敬請會議審議"},{"start":28578.02,"end":28580.02,"text":"首先在保費補助部分"},{"start":28580.02,"end":28581.02,"text":"相關提案包括"},{"start":28581.02,"end":28584.02,"text":"育有6歲以下孩童被保險人免繳保費"},{"start":28585.47,"end":28588.47,"text":"政府保險費補助提高至50%"},{"start":28588.47,"end":28592.47,"text":"那麼本部審酌本項保費負擔調整將簽動"},{"start":28592.47,"end":28595.47,"text":"其他社會保險保費補助的規定"},{"start":28595.47,"end":28596.47,"text":"那麼也為"},{"start":28597.15,"end":28600.15,"text":"兼顧量能付費的公平原則"},{"start":28600.15,"end":28601.15,"text":"以及政府財政負擔"},{"start":28601.15,"end":28604.15,"text":"允宜審慎嚴厲"},{"start":28604.15,"end":28609.15,"text":"那麼其次有關於保險費繳款單計算規定"},{"start":28609.15,"end":28612.15,"text":"那麼保費計算不論採每月或雙月"},{"start":28612.15,"end":28614.15,"text":"計算繳款單"},{"start":28614.15,"end":28618.15,"text":"並未影響被保險人實際應繳納的金額"},{"start":28618.15,"end":28622.15,"text":"但是將增加保險人計算的行政成本"},{"start":28622.15,"end":28626.15,"text":"那麼本部估計大約是2億的行政成本"},{"start":28626.15,"end":28630.15,"text":"因此建議維持現行的規定的辦理"},{"start":28630.15,"end":28634.15,"text":"另外針對委員建議減徵利息的規定"},{"start":28634.15,"end":28638.15,"text":"考量經濟困難者令徵利息減徵相關辦法"},{"start":28638.15,"end":28641.15,"text":"這個部分尊重大院審議結果"},{"start":28641.15,"end":28645.15,"text":"至於配偶連帶處罰規定的修正建議"},{"start":28645.15,"end":28649.15,"text":"業經貴委員會3月19日審議通過"},{"start":28649.15,"end":28653.15,"text":"本部建議依照行政院版本修正條文"},{"start":28654.15,"end":28658.15,"text":"另外有關於增訂生育給付放寬勤領"},{"start":28658.15,"end":28664.15,"text":"於一年內仍得勤領並且追溯5年發給的措施"},{"start":28664.15,"end":28666.15,"text":"補充明定法律規定"},{"start":28666.15,"end":28669.15,"text":"那麼本部已經在2025年納入本法"},{"start":28669.15,"end":28672.15,"text":"施行系的第44條第三項的規定"},{"start":28673.63,"end":28676.63,"text":"那麼委員所提一列本法第18條"},{"start":28676.63,"end":28679.63,"text":"增訂第一項第二款以及第二項"},{"start":28679.63,"end":28681.63,"text":"來進一步提升法律違約"},{"start":28681.63,"end":28684.63,"text":"那麼本部競表尊重"},{"start":28684.63,"end":28688.63,"text":"至於延長人民請求權5年之時效規定"},{"start":28688.9,"end":28691.9,"text":"由於國保給付遷禮資格"},{"start":28691.9,"end":28694.9,"text":"牽涉外部相關資料的比對作業"},{"start":28694.9,"end":28697.9,"text":"仍需就相關的證明文件"},{"start":28697.9,"end":28702.9,"text":"詳與審認使能正確核發給付"},{"start":28702.9,"end":28705.9,"text":"那麼因為相關證件的保存期限"},{"start":28705.9,"end":28707.9,"text":"未必都是10年"},{"start":28707.9,"end":28709.9,"text":"如果有設伏今天"},{"start":28711.41,"end":28713.41,"text":"持報或誤報的情形"},{"start":28713.41,"end":28715.41,"text":"那麼事實上反而是增加了"},{"start":28715.41,"end":28719.41,"text":"保險人、食物審查、作業的查證困難"},{"start":28719.41,"end":28723.41,"text":"而進一步會衍生給付的核發疑義"},{"start":28723.41,"end":28725.41,"text":"試射民眾的權利"},{"start":28725.41,"end":28728.41,"text":"那麼這部分我們也是尊重大院的審查結果"},{"start":28728.41,"end":28730.41,"text":"那麼至於放寬"},{"start":28730.73,"end":28732.73,"text":"排富標準"},{"start":28732.73,"end":28735.73,"text":"行政院版事實上已經有提出放寬的門檻"},{"start":28735.73,"end":28739.73,"text":"那麼所得是60萬,不動產是1025萬"},{"start":28739.73,"end":28741.73,"text":"並且建立定期調整的機制"},{"start":28741.73,"end":28744.73,"text":"那麼事實上也與委員的提案版本"},{"start":28744.73,"end":28746.73,"text":"修正目的都相同"},{"start":28746.73,"end":28749.73,"text":"另外有關於採取高齡家庭CPI成長率"},{"start":28749.73,"end":28751.73,"text":"為調整機制的部分"},{"start":28751.73,"end":28753.73,"text":"那麼查該項CPI的指標是細紙"},{"start":28753.73,"end":28756.73,"text":"戶內人口都是65歲以上家庭"},{"start":28756.73,"end":28759.73,"text":"國寶幾戶親臨的對象的家庭"},{"start":28759.73,"end":28764.73,"text":"未必都是高齡族群"},{"start":28764.73,"end":28767.73,"text":"因此也無法適用這一項的高齡指標"},{"start":28767.73,"end":28770.73,"text":"那麼也因此建議維持行政院的版本"},{"start":28770.73,"end":28776.73,"text":"那麼至於原住民淨罰補償金因此損害賠償"},{"start":28776.73,"end":28778.73,"text":"上非所得發生"},{"start":28778.73,"end":28781.73,"text":"那麼不會課徵綜合所得稅"},{"start":28781.73,"end":28784.73,"text":"那麼至於本項補償金所列"},{"start":28784.73,"end":28787.73,"text":"及等相關事項是否另訂標準"},{"start":28787.73,"end":28790.73,"text":"那麼這部分我們也是尊重大院的審議結果"},{"start":28790.73,"end":28794.73,"text":"那麼至於增訂育兒幾戶規定的修正建議"},{"start":28794.73,"end":28797.73,"text":"那麼這一項的幾戶親臨的條件估算"},{"start":28797.73,"end":28802.73,"text":"本部我們估算一年所需的經費高達145億"},{"start":28802.73,"end":28806.73,"text":"那麼審酌本項提案將會牽動其他社會保險的橫平性"},{"start":28806.73,"end":28808.73,"text":"那麼也影響社會保險資源的公平性"},{"start":28808.73,"end":28814.73,"text":"市設國保基金支出以及政府財政負擔也隱移審慎評估"},{"start":28814.73,"end":28819.73,"text":"那麼另外還有有關於調高商帳給付額度以及擴大適用的範圍"},{"start":28819.73,"end":28821.73,"text":"本部的意見有三點"},{"start":28821.73,"end":28827.73,"text":"第一調高額度的部分一次發給十個月或十五個月"},{"start":28827.73,"end":28833.73,"text":"月投保金額一年將會增加基金的支出分別是12億或到24億"},{"start":28833.73,"end":28837.73,"text":"那麼這也事實上會牽到國保的基金財務"},{"start":28837.73,"end":28842.73,"text":"而且也攸關全體保險的權利我們也建議審慎評估"},{"start":28842.73,"end":28845.73,"text":"第二擴大商帳給付的適用部分"},{"start":28845.73,"end":28850.73,"text":"那麼本法商帳給付的情領規定與國保以及公保規定都是相同"},{"start":28850.73,"end":28856.73,"text":"都是以加保期間的死亡事故才能夠核發"},{"start":28856.73,"end":28859.73,"text":"就是說他的這個條件是這個加保期間"},{"start":28859.73,"end":28865.73,"text":"那麼如果你現在把它改成是這個65歲以上退保之後都可以領取的話"},{"start":28865.73,"end":28871.73,"text":"那麼預估一年增加的基金支出是72到144億"},{"start":28871.73,"end":28878.73,"text":"而且事實上也跟我們一般社會保險的這個基本的制度設計的邏輯不太相符"},{"start":28878.73,"end":28884.73,"text":"那麼也因此我們建議要就是簡單來說這個就變成福利不是變成保險了啦"},{"start":28884.73,"end":28888.73,"text":"這個是也請各位委員來審慎研議"},{"start":28888.73,"end":28892.73,"text":"第三至於增訂死亡一次金發給規定"},{"start":28892.73,"end":28896.73,"text":"並也不符合社會保險的制度精神"},{"start":28896.73,"end":28899.73,"text":"而且也增加國保的財務"},{"start":28900.83,"end":28903.83,"text":"那麼我們也建議審慎研議"},{"start":28905.08,"end":28909.08,"text":"有關於已屬年金工作收入的審認規定"},{"start":28909.08,"end":28913.08,"text":"現行的基本是以基本公司29500為"},{"start":28913.96,"end":28916.96,"text":"已屬年金工作收入的審核標準"},{"start":28916.96,"end":28918.96,"text":"高於中低收入戶資格"},{"start":28918.96,"end":28921.96,"text":"也就是中低收入按照我們社會救助法的規定"},{"start":28921.96,"end":28925.96,"text":"是每人每月不超過當地最低生活費1.5倍"},{"start":28925.96,"end":28928.96,"text":"那麼以台灣省為例的話是23273元"},{"start":28928.96,"end":28935.96,"text":"那麼委員所提出是以每人每月最低生活費2.5倍為審核標準"},{"start":28935.96,"end":28939.96,"text":"以台灣省為例的話那就變成38788元"},{"start":28940.44,"end":28944.44,"text":"我再重複一次是38788元"},{"start":28944.44,"end":28946.44,"text":"是高於我們現在目前"},{"start":28946.44,"end":28948.44,"text":"就是你現在的那幾付高於基本工資"},{"start":28949.48,"end":28953.48,"text":"那這個也一年也會增加經費1.8億"},{"start":28953.48,"end":28957.48,"text":"那麼事實上也試設各項的福利資格比照試用"},{"start":28957.48,"end":28960.48,"text":"這部分我們也建議可能要審慎研議"},{"start":28960.48,"end":28965.48,"text":"那麼至於最後各界最關心的調高基本數額以及相關的調整機制"},{"start":28965.48,"end":28969.48,"text":"行政院版已經調高基本數額是23.5%"},{"start":28970.61,"end":28975.61,"text":"另外也增訂運期調整後兩年CPI達到3%的話"},{"start":28975.61,"end":28978.61,"text":"那麼就有一個其中檢討的這個配套"},{"start":28978.61,"end":28982.61,"text":"來即時反映短期物價提高的問題"},{"start":28982.61,"end":28986.61,"text":"那麼委員提案將老年家計以及基本保障"},{"start":28986.61,"end":28992.61,"text":"已屬年金原住民給付從每月的4049元提高為5000元"},{"start":28992.61,"end":28994.61,"text":"提高為5000到8000元"},{"start":28994.61,"end":28996.61,"text":"那麼身心障礙基本保障年金"},{"start":28996.61,"end":28999.61,"text":"從每個月的5437提高到6715"},{"start":28999.61,"end":29002.61,"text":"提高為6715至12000"},{"start":29002.61,"end":29007.61,"text":"那麼經顧算一年政府所需的經費需增加"},{"start":29008.22,"end":29010.22,"text":"156到653億不等"},{"start":29010.22,"end":29013.22,"text":"那麼這也牽涉到政府的財政負擔"},{"start":29013.22,"end":29016.22,"text":"我們也建議是不是就維持行政院版本"},{"start":29016.22,"end":29020.22,"text":"那麼最後國民年金從2008年開辦"},{"start":29020.22,"end":29022.22,"text":"迄今已經將近18年"},{"start":29022.22,"end":29026.22,"text":"是我國社會保險制度的基礎經濟安全保障"},{"start":29026.22,"end":29032.22,"text":"那麼審酌當年當前經濟成長物價指數以及民眾生活需求"},{"start":29032.22,"end":29035.22,"text":"行政院版國民年金法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":29035.22,"end":29040.22,"text":"預估一年所需的經費已經是來到860億元"},{"start":29040.22,"end":29044.22,"text":"那麼年增每一年是195億"},{"start":29044.22,"end":29047.22,"text":"那麼這些全部都是由政府的公務預算來支應"},{"start":29047.22,"end":29048.22,"text":"那麼將四"},{"start":29049.26,"end":29055.26,"text":"15年中央政府總預算案完成法定程序後"},{"start":29055.26,"end":29058.26,"text":"本部將儘速來辦理追加"},{"start":29058.26,"end":29061.26,"text":"來強化國民年金的社會保障功能"},{"start":29061.26,"end":29064.26,"text":"以上的報告進行大院與指教"},{"start":29064.26,"end":29065.26,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":29065.14,"end":29067.14,"text":"謝謝李建德次長的說明"},{"start":29067.14,"end":29069.14,"text":"現在進行版案第二輪"},{"start":29069.14,"end":29073.14,"text":"並按逐條討論現在討論第四條條文"},{"start":29073.14,"end":29077.14,"text":"在此之前今天對衛福部對保留新增條文"},{"start":29078.42,"end":29085.42,"text":"建議為提出建議條文審查時衛福部請完整呈現條文與定式強並注意核對"},{"start":29086.78,"end":29088.78,"text":"先請衛福部說明第12條"},{"start":29095.79,"end":29098.79,"text":"第12條的修正草案"},{"start":29098.79,"end":29103.79,"text":"這邊的12條的規定主要委員有兩個部分"},{"start":29103.79,"end":29110.79,"text":"第一個部分是蘇喬會委員所提的6歲以下的被保險人免於繳納保險費"},{"start":29110.79,"end":29115.79,"text":"那這個案子我們評估之後一年增加經費大概會有10億元"},{"start":29115.79,"end":29117.79,"text":"這是第一個部分"},{"start":29117.79,"end":29122.79,"text":"那第二個部分的委員是賴世保委員所提到的"},{"start":29122.79,"end":29126.79,"text":"政府補助比例提高至50%的這個部分"},{"start":29126.79,"end":29131.79,"text":"那這個部分我們經過評估一年會增加經費是65億元"},{"start":29131.79,"end":29139.79,"text":"那這兩個提案所提到的都會牽涉到其他社會保險的保費補助的規定"},{"start":29139.79,"end":29143.79,"text":"那考慮到這個量能負擔這個部分的話"},{"start":29143.79,"end":29145.79,"text":"我們希望能夠審慎研議"},{"start":29145.79,"end":29146.79,"text":"以上"},{"start":29147.19,"end":29148.19,"text":"好,請問委員"},{"start":29150.88,"end":29154.88,"text":"有關6歲以下幼兒的保費"},{"start":29154.88,"end":29157.88,"text":"由中央跟地方政府"},{"start":29158.95,"end":29160.95,"text":"大概就是全額負擔了"},{"start":29161.25,"end":29163.25,"text":"那"},{"start":29162.6,"end":29167.6,"text":"我覺得你們來的時候是不是要講一下"},{"start":29168.3,"end":29173.3,"text":"我們現在對於低收入務跟中低收入務的補貼"},{"start":29173.3,"end":29177.3,"text":"我覺得這樣子對比會比你們單純講"},{"start":29177.3,"end":29181.3,"text":"增加預算更有說服力一點"},{"start":29183.07,"end":29186.07,"text":"因為我這邊有啦"},{"start":29186.07,"end":29190.07,"text":"大概就是補助70%到100%啦"},{"start":29190.07,"end":29199.07,"text":"我想會有補助6歲以下保費的提議"},{"start":29199.07,"end":29202.07,"text":"最主要還是在因應少子化啦"},{"start":29202.07,"end":29204.07,"text":"利益不錯啦"},{"start":29204.07,"end":29209.07,"text":"只是說可能要除了增加支出以外"},{"start":29209.07,"end":29212.07,"text":"比較重要的是我們還是要對比其他"},{"start":29212.07,"end":29214.07,"text":"加受補助的對象"},{"start":29214.07,"end":29220.07,"text":"這個是我提供給委員會的委員做參考的啦"},{"start":29220.07,"end":29226.07,"text":"因為單純的從財政來做探討"},{"start":29227.02,"end":29233.02,"text":"比較不符合修法的時候討論的最主要的核心啦"},{"start":29233.37,"end":29234.37,"text":"好"},{"start":29235.12,"end":29236.12,"text":"喔"},{"start":29235.97,"end":29236.97,"text":"我個人是覺得啦"},{"start":29236.97,"end":29240.97,"text":"假如說中低收入務可能就100%嘛"},{"start":29240.97,"end":29243.97,"text":"假如說中低收入務沒有到100%"},{"start":29243.97,"end":29249.97,"text":"那6歲以下的兒童100%的補貼"},{"start":29249.97,"end":29253.97,"text":"會不會就是有一點失衡啦"},{"start":29253.97,"end":29254.97,"text":"會不會有一點失衡"},{"start":29254.97,"end":29257.97,"text":"當然我還是要強調就是提案委員"},{"start":29257.97,"end":29263.97,"text":"想要從各個面向來鼓勵生育"},{"start":29263.97,"end":29265.97,"text":"這個利益是很好啦"},{"start":29265.97,"end":29269.97,"text":"只是說可能假如這個通過了"},{"start":29269.97,"end":29273.97,"text":"那我覺得中低收是更應該要在保費上"},{"start":29273.97,"end":29275.97,"text":"是更應該要受到照顧的啦"},{"start":29277.53,"end":29279.53,"text":"這個提供給委員會做參考"},{"start":29280.32,"end":29281.32,"text":"好"},{"start":29281.32,"end":29284.32,"text":"那第12條條文是照修正通過嗎"},{"start":29287.39,"end":29288.39,"text":"沒有"},{"start":29289.9,"end":29291.9,"text":"修正維持現行條文"},{"start":29294.02,"end":29296.02,"text":"現在進行第13條條文"},{"start":29296.23,"end":29297.23,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29301.38,"end":29303.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29303.38,"end":29305.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29305.38,"end":29307.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29307.38,"end":29309.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29309.38,"end":29311.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29311.38,"end":29313.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29313.38,"end":29315.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29315.38,"end":29317.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29317.38,"end":29319.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29319.38,"end":29321.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29321.38,"end":29323.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29323.38,"end":29325.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29325.38,"end":29327.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29327.38,"end":29329.38,"text":"請問會不會說明"},{"start":29303.13,"end":29305.13,"text":"第13條的部分"},{"start":29305.13,"end":29307.13,"text":"是增加這個"},{"start":29307.13,"end":29309.13,"text":"交款單寄送頻率的規定"},{"start":29309.13,"end":29311.13,"text":"那這個部分的話"},{"start":29311.13,"end":29315.13,"text":"是由賴會員委員所提出來的這個交款單"},{"start":29315.13,"end":29318.13,"text":"由現行的每兩個月改為按月寄送"},{"start":29318.13,"end":29320.13,"text":"那這個部分的話"},{"start":29320.13,"end":29324.13,"text":"我們今天評估也是會增加保險人的一個行政作業的成本"},{"start":29324.13,"end":29326.13,"text":"那但是呢"},{"start":29326.13,"end":29328.13,"text":"其實在民眾的實際上的繳納金額"},{"start":29328.13,"end":29330.13,"text":"是沒有受到改變的"},{"start":29330.13,"end":29332.13,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":29332.13,"end":29336.13,"text":"健保的第六類被保險人也是採取雙月寄送交款單的這樣的一個做法"},{"start":29336.13,"end":29338.13,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":29338.13,"end":29340.13,"text":"這個部分我們是建議維持原條文"},{"start":29347.43,"end":29349.43,"text":"好"},{"start":29357.06,"end":29359.06,"text":"會不會說明嗎"},{"start":29359.34,"end":29361.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29361.34,"end":29363.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29363.34,"end":29365.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29365.34,"end":29367.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29367.34,"end":29369.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29369.34,"end":29371.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29371.34,"end":29373.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29373.34,"end":29375.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29375.34,"end":29377.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29377.34,"end":29379.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29379.34,"end":29381.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29381.34,"end":29383.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29383.34,"end":29385.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29385.34,"end":29387.34,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29361.25,"end":29363.25,"text":"會不會說明"},{"start":29364.56,"end":29366.56,"text":"那就維持現行條文"},{"start":29366.56,"end":29368.56,"text":"OK"},{"start":29368.69,"end":29370.69,"text":"現在進行第14條"},{"start":29371.81,"end":29373.81,"text":"第14條的規定"},{"start":29373.81,"end":29375.81,"text":"是有關於利息"},{"start":29375.81,"end":29377.81,"text":"減徵辦法的這個"},{"start":29377.81,"end":29379.81,"text":"條文的建議"},{"start":29379.81,"end":29381.81,"text":"那這個部分是由宗家兵委員"},{"start":29381.81,"end":29383.81,"text":"所提出來的"},{"start":29383.81,"end":29385.81,"text":"委員這邊所關心的是針對"},{"start":29385.81,"end":29387.81,"text":"經濟困難的特殊情況"},{"start":29387.81,"end":29389.81,"text":"授權主管機關另訂"},{"start":29389.81,"end":29391.81,"text":"辦法 那目前我們在"},{"start":29391.81,"end":29393.81,"text":"現行的持繳保費的部分"},{"start":29393.81,"end":29395.81,"text":"我們有相關的規定"},{"start":29395.81,"end":29397.81,"text":"那對於利息30元以下"},{"start":29397.81,"end":29399.81,"text":"是有一個免徵的規定"},{"start":29399.81,"end":29401.81,"text":"那在這邊的話委員是"},{"start":29401.81,"end":29403.81,"text":"特別又針對經濟困難的"},{"start":29403.81,"end":29405.81,"text":"特殊情況希望能夠授權"},{"start":29405.81,"end":29407.81,"text":"主管機關來另訂辦法"},{"start":29407.81,"end":29409.81,"text":"那這個部分的話我們是尊重"},{"start":29409.81,"end":29411.81,"text":"大院的一個審議的情況"},{"start":29415.97,"end":29417.97,"text":"我問看委員有沒有意見"},{"start":29419.6,"end":29421.6,"text":"委員有沒有意見"},{"start":29422.96,"end":29424.96,"text":"沒有意見的話"},{"start":29424.96,"end":29426.96,"text":"問行政機關那個是"},{"start":29426.96,"end":29428.96,"text":"傾向於維持現行條文"},{"start":29428.96,"end":29430.96,"text":"還是依中為"},{"start":29431.04,"end":29433.04,"text":"是否依中為人的版本提過"},{"start":29438.7,"end":29440.7,"text":"行政模板有沒有建議"},{"start":29440.8,"end":29442.8,"text":"的文字"},{"start":29443.45,"end":29445.45,"text":"好"},{"start":29444.73,"end":29446.73,"text":"第十四條的部分"},{"start":29446.73,"end":29448.73,"text":"文字"},{"start":29448.73,"end":29450.73,"text":"我們認為是可以做"},{"start":29450.73,"end":29452.73,"text":"就是採納這個中嘉賓委員"},{"start":29452.73,"end":29454.73,"text":"的一個建議就是我們"},{"start":29454.73,"end":29456.73,"text":"可以考慮到說有兩個部分"},{"start":29456.73,"end":29458.73,"text":"除了那個就是"},{"start":29458.73,"end":29460.73,"text":"現行的30元的部分"},{"start":29460.73,"end":29462.73,"text":"或者是未來"},{"start":29462.73,"end":29464.73,"text":"對於這個特殊情形的"},{"start":29464.73,"end":29466.73,"text":"困難的"},{"start":29466.73,"end":29468.73,"text":"這些弱勢者的民眾"},{"start":29468.73,"end":29470.73,"text":"我們對於這個部分要做一些"},{"start":29470.73,"end":29472.73,"text":"授權主管機關"},{"start":29472.73,"end":29474.73,"text":"另外一個辦法我們是可以接受的"},{"start":29474.73,"end":29476.73,"text":"尊重這個中委員"},{"start":29476.73,"end":29478.73,"text":"的這個條文的建議"},{"start":29478.73,"end":29480.73,"text":"請修正文字然後並且宣讀"},{"start":29482.78,"end":29484.78,"text":"那就修正文字然後宣讀"},{"start":29484.78,"end":29486.78,"text":"是 那就麻煩請"},{"start":29486.78,"end":29488.78,"text":"我們同仁做幕僚作業"},{"start":29491.76,"end":29493.76,"text":"多謝您的觀看"},{"start":29494.39,"end":29496.39,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":29496.27,"end":29498.27,"text":"在今天的會上"},{"start":29498.27,"end":29500.27,"text":"我們看到這個條文"},{"start":29500.27,"end":29502.27,"text":"就是依照第一項規定"},{"start":29502.27,"end":29504.27,"text":"計算的利息被保險"},{"start":29504.27,"end":29506.27,"text":"人因經濟困難"},{"start":29506.27,"end":29508.27,"text":"或其他特殊情形"},{"start":29508.27,"end":29510.27,"text":"無力繳納者"},{"start":29510.27,"end":29512.27,"text":"保險人得以減增"},{"start":29513.16,"end":29515.16,"text":"帽號 其資格比例"},{"start":29517.83,"end":29519.83,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":29518.49,"end":29520.49,"text":"分號"},{"start":29521.21,"end":29523.21,"text":"其資格"},{"start":29523.91,"end":29525.91,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":29524.8,"end":29526.8,"text":"減增"},{"start":29526.74,"end":29528.74,"text":"減增"},{"start":29528.74,"end":29530.74,"text":"減增這個部分相關辦法"},{"start":29530.74,"end":29532.74,"text":"由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":29534.96,"end":29536.96,"text":"有兩種情況"},{"start":29536.96,"end":29538.96,"text":"有免增跟減增"},{"start":29538.96,"end":29540.96,"text":"其他的"},{"start":29540.96,"end":29542.96,"text":"就是整體前面的部分"},{"start":29542.96,"end":29544.96,"text":"中央病委員的部分"},{"start":29544.96,"end":29546.96,"text":"減增或免增"},{"start":29546.42,"end":29548.42,"text":"有啊 就是去修正免增"},{"start":29548.95,"end":29550.95,"text":"對 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那這邊是不是"},{"start":29874.54,"end":29876.54,"text":"運同討論"},{"start":29876.59,"end":29878.59,"text":"可以"},{"start":29878.32,"end":29880.32,"text":"30條、36條跟54條之一"},{"start":29884.81,"end":29886.81,"text":"但是這一條要先"},{"start":29886.81,"end":29888.81,"text":"先提出他的建議"},{"start":29889.74,"end":29891.74,"text":"好"},{"start":29892.14,"end":29894.14,"text":"30條請問委員沒見"},{"start":29900.86,"end":29902.86,"text":"好 請李玉琴 詹委"},{"start":29917.67,"end":29919.67,"text":"跟得上物價"},{"start":29919.67,"end":29921.67,"text":"所以這次我的版本"},{"start":29921.67,"end":29923.67,"text":"大概也把老年基本的保障金額"},{"start":29923.67,"end":29925.67,"text":"提高到5000"},{"start":29925.67,"end":29927.67,"text":"然後生產障礙基本保障年金"},{"start":29927.67,"end":29929.67,"text":"也提高到6715元"},{"start":29930,"end":29932,"text":"這個條幅也超過23%"},{"start":29932,"end":29934,"text":"是希望減輕大家生活壓力"},{"start":29935.37,"end":29937.37,"text":"不過當然我要特別提醒的是"},{"start":29937.37,"end":29939.37,"text":"國民年金除了老人年金還包括"},{"start":29939.37,"end":29941.37,"text":"身障、傷障等"},{"start":29941.37,"end":29943.37,"text":"多項的給付"},{"start":29943.37,"end":29945.37,"text":"經費大概都是來自公務預算"},{"start":29945.37,"end":29947.37,"text":"所以一定要兼顧到照顧"},{"start":29947.37,"end":29949.37,"text":"人民 可是也要兼顧到財政永續"},{"start":29949.37,"end":29951.37,"text":"我相信這位府應該要去考慮"},{"start":29951.37,"end":29953.37,"text":"所以另外"},{"start":29953.37,"end":29955.37,"text":"當然我今天還是要提"},{"start":29955.37,"end":29957.37,"text":"很多民眾發聲"},{"start":29957.48,"end":29959.48,"text":"為什麼這樣提"},{"start":29959.48,"end":29961.48,"text":"行政院原本規劃7月1號"},{"start":29961.48,"end":29963.48,"text":"就調升年金"},{"start":29963.48,"end":29965.48,"text":"跟我們的六大社福今天"},{"start":29965.48,"end":29967.48,"text":"可是因為修法跟預算"},{"start":29967.48,"end":29969.48,"text":"程序的延拓"},{"start":29969.48,"end":29971.48,"text":"到現在大家都還在等"},{"start":29971.48,"end":29973.48,"text":"這段時間我收到了很多長輩"},{"start":29973.48,"end":29975.48,"text":"身障朋友跟家屬的陳情"},{"start":29975.48,"end":29977.48,"text":"他們一直在問我說"},{"start":29977.48,"end":29979.48,"text":"到底什麼時候才會調"},{"start":29979.68,"end":29981.68,"text":"因為現在修法在卡著"},{"start":29981.68,"end":29983.68,"text":"還有一個事實上是預算"},{"start":29983.68,"end":29985.68,"text":"尤其是六大社福今天"},{"start":29985.68,"end":29987.68,"text":"如果這個年金事實上是要去"},{"start":29987.68,"end":29989.68,"text":"照顧身障、身障照顧長輩的時候"},{"start":29989.68,"end":29991.68,"text":"可能有沒有要去考慮到"},{"start":29991.68,"end":29993.68,"text":"我們的那個六大社福今天"},{"start":29993.68,"end":29995.68,"text":"所以當然我今天"},{"start":29995.68,"end":29997.68,"text":"也會針對第59條"},{"start":29997.68,"end":29999.68,"text":"會提出附帶決議"},{"start":29999.68,"end":30001.68,"text":"要求法案通過後"},{"start":30001.68,"end":30003.68,"text":"回溯到今年7月1號來計算"},{"start":30003.68,"end":30005.68,"text":"不要讓人民因為程序的延拓"},{"start":30005.68,"end":30007.68,"text":"而領不到錢"},{"start":30007.68,"end":30009.68,"text":"只是少領"},{"start":30009.68,"end":30011.68,"text":"當然我們也希望六大社福今天"},{"start":30011.68,"end":30013.68,"text":"一併適用回溯的機制"},{"start":30013.68,"end":30015.68,"text":"把人民因應有的權益完整"},{"start":30015.68,"end":30017.68,"text":"還給大家"},{"start":30017.68,"end":30019.68,"text":"因為我覺得人民的生活不能等"},{"start":30019.68,"end":30021.68,"text":"該給的保障就要完整給準時給"},{"start":30021.68,"end":30023.68,"text":"所以我希望今天能夠儘速地去"},{"start":30023.68,"end":30025.68,"text":"通過我們國民年金的調升"},{"start":30029.67,"end":30031.67,"text":"確診醫生"},{"start":30031.67,"end":30033.67,"text":"第30條他們一個行政期間"},{"start":30033.67,"end":30037.67,"text":"希望先依照哪個版本說"},{"start":30038.83,"end":30040.83,"text":"選擇日光是要按照哪一個"},{"start":30043.45,"end":30045.45,"text":"非常感謝"},{"start":30045.45,"end":30047.45,"text":"林鄭行委委員對於這個議題的"},{"start":30047.45,"end":30049.45,"text":"一個反應我想這個確實"},{"start":30049.45,"end":30051.45,"text":"民眾這一點很多事實上都"},{"start":30051.45,"end":30053.45,"text":"屬於弱勢民眾那我想整個"},{"start":30053.45,"end":30055.45,"text":"這一個政府的這個美意"},{"start":30055.45,"end":30057.45,"text":"我想不應該隨著這個時間"},{"start":30057.45,"end":30059.45,"text":"而被耽擱"},{"start":30059.45,"end":30061.45,"text":"那也確實最近整個通貨膨脹"},{"start":30061.45,"end":30063.45,"text":"也確實蠻嚴重"},{"start":30063.45,"end":30065.45,"text":"所以我們基本上我們也"},{"start":30065.45,"end":30067.45,"text":"願意來支持"},{"start":30067.45,"end":30069.45,"text":"這樣的一個附帶決議"},{"start":30069.45,"end":30071.45,"text":"感謝委員謝謝"},{"start":30070.91,"end":30072.91,"text":"那第30條是按照哪一個委員的學證"},{"start":30074.27,"end":30076.27,"text":"要不要先呈現一下修正文字"},{"start":30086.37,"end":30088.37,"text":"嗯"},{"start":30088.12,"end":30090.12,"text":"30條的部分他"},{"start":30090.12,"end":30092.12,"text":"其實是跟54條之一的"},{"start":30092.12,"end":30094.12,"text":"基本溯爾是有相關的"},{"start":30094.12,"end":30096.12,"text":"主要的部分是沒有"},{"start":30096.12,"end":30098.12,"text":"特別明確的寫"},{"start":30098.12,"end":30100.12,"text":"那所以假設54條的"},{"start":30100.12,"end":30102.12,"text":"54條之一的基本溯爾"},{"start":30102.12,"end":30104.12,"text":"經過大院的討論之後"},{"start":30104.12,"end":30106.12,"text":"確定基本溯爾是多少的時候"},{"start":30106.12,"end":30108.12,"text":"30條的老年年金的這邊"},{"start":30108.12,"end":30110.12,"text":"相關的規定就配合就一致性"},{"start":30110.12,"end":30112.12,"text":"讓他這個"},{"start":30112.12,"end":30114.12,"text":"溯爾是明確的"},{"start":30114.12,"end":30116.12,"text":"所以剛才有跟各位人報告"},{"start":30116.12,"end":30118.12,"text":"就是說這個30條老年年金的"},{"start":30118.12,"end":30120.12,"text":"請你規定是要配合"},{"start":30120.12,"end":30122.12,"text":"54條之一以及"},{"start":30122.12,"end":30124.12,"text":"這個36條的經費負擔"},{"start":30124.12,"end":30126.12,"text":"的歸屬一起並同來做討論"},{"start":30126.12,"end":30128.12,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":30137.31,"end":30139.31,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":30138.19,"end":30140.19,"text":"因為跟委員報告一下"},{"start":30140.19,"end":30142.19,"text":"跟召委報告一下其實今天"},{"start":30142.19,"end":30144.19,"text":"前面很多條文都是跟54條"},{"start":30144.19,"end":30146.19,"text":"之一是有關的啦"},{"start":30146.19,"end":30148.19,"text":"那54條之一就是因為基本溯爾"},{"start":30148.19,"end":30150.19,"text":"雖然行政院院長本來是提出了"},{"start":30150.19,"end":30152.19,"text":"就是23.5的一個幅度"},{"start":30152.19,"end":30154.19,"text":"的一個調整但是因為委員"},{"start":30154.19,"end":30156.19,"text":"有諸多的一些不同的"},{"start":30156.19,"end":30158.19,"text":"版本出來那所以這邊"},{"start":30158.19,"end":30160.19,"text":"的話就是因為涉及到"},{"start":30160.19,"end":30162.19,"text":"經費負擔的問題所以這邊"},{"start":30162.19,"end":30164.19,"text":"是不是跟委員報告如果有連動性"},{"start":30164.19,"end":30166.19,"text":"的話其實是"},{"start":30166.19,"end":30168.19,"text":"還是要先討論還是先保留"},{"start":30168.19,"end":30170.19,"text":"建議是不是先討論"},{"start":30170.19,"end":30172.19,"text":"54條之一再回過頭"},{"start":30172.19,"end":30174.19,"text":"30條先保留"},{"start":30174.19,"end":30176.19,"text":"30條先保留"},{"start":30176.61,"end":30178.61,"text":"先保留 等一會再回來"},{"start":30178.61,"end":30180.61,"text":"我覺得如果剛剛講說54條之一"},{"start":30180.61,"end":30182.61,"text":"跟很多都有關連性要不要先"},{"start":30182.61,"end":30184.61,"text":"討論54條之一 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":30186.01,"end":30188.01,"text":"那就是先"},{"start":30188.73,"end":30190.73,"text":"討論第"},{"start":30190.73,"end":30192.73,"text":"對 30條保留然後現在進行第54條之一"},{"start":30196.19,"end":30198.19,"text":"請行政單位說明"},{"start":30202.03,"end":30204.03,"text":"54條之一的話這邊就"},{"start":30204.03,"end":30206.03,"text":"有非常多的委員"},{"start":30206.03,"end":30208.03,"text":"有提出這個針對"},{"start":30208.03,"end":30210.03,"text":"基本溯爾的一個版本"},{"start":30210.03,"end":30212.03,"text":"那54條之一這邊"},{"start":30212.03,"end":30214.03,"text":"有特別提到的是包含"},{"start":30214.03,"end":30216.03,"text":"第一個是基本溯爾"},{"start":30216.03,"end":30218.03,"text":"第二個是調整機制"},{"start":30218.03,"end":30220.03,"text":"第三個是CPI第四個是"},{"start":30220.03,"end":30222.03,"text":"請領條件那這個部分"},{"start":30222.03,"end":30224.03,"text":"就先跟大家報告"},{"start":30224.03,"end":30226.03,"text":"就是54條之一應該是這一次"},{"start":30226.03,"end":30228.03,"text":"非常關鍵的條文"},{"start":30228.03,"end":30230.03,"text":"那在這邊的關鍵條文裡面的話"},{"start":30230.03,"end":30232.03,"text":"例如像"},{"start":30232.03,"end":30234.03,"text":"有諸多委員"},{"start":30234.03,"end":30236.03,"text":"是跟行政院版的條文"},{"start":30236.03,"end":30238.03,"text":"是一樣的"},{"start":30238.03,"end":30240.03,"text":"那這是第一個部分"},{"start":30240.03,"end":30242.03,"text":"那當然也有委員所提出來的基本溯爾"},{"start":30242.03,"end":30244.03,"text":"是就是跟行政院版本"},{"start":30244.03,"end":30246.03,"text":"是不一樣的這邊就有"},{"start":30246.03,"end":30248.03,"text":"34案所以我們一年"},{"start":30248.03,"end":30250.03,"text":"所預估的經費就相當於"},{"start":30250.03,"end":30252.03,"text":"要再增加73億到"},{"start":30252.03,"end":30254.03,"text":"831億這個數"},{"start":30254.03,"end":30256.03,"text":"就增加的幅度是"},{"start":30256.03,"end":30258.03,"text":"不等的這是第一個部分"},{"start":30258.03,"end":30260.03,"text":"第二個部分的話是"},{"start":30260.03,"end":30262.03,"text":"針對民眾黨黨團"},{"start":30262.03,"end":30264.03,"text":"這邊所提出來的CPI"},{"start":30264.03,"end":30266.03,"text":"他是採取高齡"},{"start":30266.03,"end":30268.03,"text":"家庭的CPI的成長率"},{"start":30268.03,"end":30270.03,"text":"來作為調整的機制"},{"start":30270.03,"end":30272.03,"text":"那剛才我們也特別"},{"start":30272.03,"end":30274.03,"text":"提出來一個說明就是說"},{"start":30274.03,"end":30276.03,"text":"現行的國保給付的請領"},{"start":30276.03,"end":30278.03,"text":"的家庭未必是"},{"start":30278.03,"end":30280.03,"text":"屬於高齡族群"},{"start":30280.03,"end":30282.03,"text":"所以呢這邊我們是不適用"},{"start":30282.03,"end":30284.03,"text":"高齡指標"},{"start":30284.03,"end":30286.03,"text":"那這個部分也跟大家做一個"},{"start":30286.03,"end":30288.03,"text":"報告所以要建議是"},{"start":30288.03,"end":30290.03,"text":"按照行政院的版本"},{"start":30290.03,"end":30292.03,"text":"來通過的"},{"start":30292.03,"end":30294.03,"text":"那其他的部分的話就是"},{"start":30294.03,"end":30296.03,"text":"有提到說中央"},{"start":30296.03,"end":30298.03,"text":"地方共同負擔的這個部分的話"},{"start":30298.03,"end":30300.03,"text":"這邊也是尊重委員所提出來的"},{"start":30300.03,"end":30302.03,"text":"一個討論的結果以上"},{"start":30305.54,"end":30307.54,"text":"請邱委員"},{"start":30335.54,"end":30337.54,"text":"調整到8057這個"},{"start":30337.54,"end":30339.54,"text":"這個金額"},{"start":30339.54,"end":30341.54,"text":"那第二個問題就是因為我們覺得這個"},{"start":30341.54,"end":30343.54,"text":"數字應該是要隨著物價指數"},{"start":30343.54,"end":30345.54,"text":"通膨因素調薪"},{"start":30345.54,"end":30347.54,"text":"等等的因素去做一個"},{"start":30347.54,"end":30349.54,"text":"彈性的調整"},{"start":30349.54,"end":30351.54,"text":"那彈性的調整應該要定期才能夠"},{"start":30351.54,"end":30353.54,"text":"周全到這些"},{"start":30353.54,"end":30355.54,"text":"受給負責的權益"},{"start":30355.54,"end":30357.54,"text":"所以我們就參考那個農民退休"},{"start":30357.54,"end":30359.54,"text":"儲金條例跟農民"},{"start":30359.54,"end":30361.54,"text":"退休儲金條例的施行細則"},{"start":30361.54,"end":30363.54,"text":"就是把那個調整的"},{"start":30363.54,"end":30365.54,"text":"期程的時間從"},{"start":30365.54,"end":30367.54,"text":"四年縮短為兩年這是第二個"},{"start":30367.54,"end":30369.54,"text":"地方那當然衛福部剛"},{"start":30369.54,"end":30371.54,"text":"這邊已經提到說台灣民眾黨有提出"},{"start":30371.54,"end":30373.54,"text":"因為調整要參考"},{"start":30373.54,"end":30375.54,"text":"一些消費者物價指數"},{"start":30375.54,"end":30377.54,"text":"消費者物價指數我們"},{"start":30377.54,"end":30379.54,"text":"就是研究"},{"start":30379.54,"end":30381.54,"text":"之後覺得高齡家庭消費者"},{"start":30381.54,"end":30383.54,"text":"物價指數因為他比較能夠"},{"start":30383.54,"end":30385.54,"text":"反映出醫療的權重"},{"start":30385.54,"end":30387.54,"text":"食物的權重"},{"start":30387.54,"end":30389.54,"text":"所以我們才進來這個"},{"start":30389.54,"end":30391.54,"text":"高齡家庭消費者物價指數"},{"start":30391.54,"end":30393.54,"text":"不過衛福部這邊是有提到說"},{"start":30393.54,"end":30395.54,"text":"因為請點的人未必是高齡"},{"start":30395.54,"end":30397.54,"text":"所以就是請我們再思考"},{"start":30397.54,"end":30399.54,"text":"斟酌一下這樣那我們再思考一下"},{"start":30399.54,"end":30401.54,"text":"以上說明謝謝"},{"start":30403.77,"end":30405.77,"text":"請王明委員"},{"start":30406.08,"end":30408.08,"text":"這個這一條"},{"start":30408.08,"end":30410.08,"text":"其實是很關鍵的條文"},{"start":30410.08,"end":30412.08,"text":"那我是不是建議"},{"start":30412.08,"end":30414.08,"text":"這個衛福部就是針對"},{"start":30414.08,"end":30416.08,"text":"因為你們的版本"},{"start":30416.08,"end":30418.08,"text":"是五千嘛那國民黨黨團"},{"start":30418.08,"end":30420.08,"text":"的版本其實是"},{"start":30420.08,"end":30422.08,"text":"六千那所以"},{"start":30422.08,"end":30424.08,"text":"就是說其實增加幅度也不算"},{"start":30424.08,"end":30426.08,"text":"很大你們要不要去精算"},{"start":30426.08,"end":30428.08,"text":"一下就是說在"},{"start":30428.08,"end":30430.08,"text":"行政院的版本跟黨團"},{"start":30430.08,"end":30432.08,"text":"的版本之間"},{"start":30432.08,"end":30434.08,"text":"就是如果再增加一千"},{"start":30434.08,"end":30436.08,"text":"總體的支出可能"},{"start":30436.08,"end":30438.08,"text":"大概會增加多少我不知道你們"},{"start":30438.08,"end":30440.08,"text":"是不是已經精算過"},{"start":30440.08,"end":30442.08,"text":"因為這一個就是說大家"},{"start":30442.08,"end":30444.08,"text":"都是利益良善就是說既然"},{"start":30444.08,"end":30446.08,"text":"這次要改了也希望說"},{"start":30446.08,"end":30448.08,"text":"是真的可以幫到"},{"start":30448.08,"end":30450.08,"text":"這一些領年金的"},{"start":30450.08,"end":30452.08,"text":"朋友就是真的對他的"},{"start":30452.08,"end":30454.08,"text":"生活有一些改善那真的我們的"},{"start":30454.08,"end":30456.08,"text":"物價上漲的速度其實是"},{"start":30456.08,"end":30458.08,"text":"太快了那雖然這個"},{"start":30458.08,"end":30460.08,"text":"政府你們這次的版本也已經"},{"start":30460.98,"end":30462.98,"text":"調高基數是"},{"start":30462.98,"end":30464.98,"text":"二三點五但是因為基期"},{"start":30464.98,"end":30466.98,"text":"很低啦所以這一塊"},{"start":30466.98,"end":30468.98,"text":"我覺得是關鍵"},{"start":30468.98,"end":30470.98,"text":"是不是你們可以再精算"},{"start":30470.98,"end":30472.98,"text":"一下那如果可以我們當然"},{"start":30472.98,"end":30474.98,"text":"是希望可以給這一些"},{"start":30474.98,"end":30476.98,"text":"那國保的將來"},{"start":30476.98,"end":30478.98,"text":"要領年金這些"},{"start":30478.98,"end":30480.98,"text":"人給他們更好的"},{"start":30480.98,"end":30482.98,"text":"待遇那所以"},{"start":30482.98,"end":30484.98,"text":"這個部分我是希望你們可以"},{"start":30484.98,"end":30486.98,"text":"再去精算一下"},{"start":30486.98,"end":30488.98,"text":"大家的利益都是好的只是那一條"},{"start":30488.98,"end":30490.98,"text":"線"},{"start":30490.19,"end":30492.19,"text":"話在哪裡"},{"start":30492.16,"end":30494.16,"text":"那我覺得大家可以再思考一下"},{"start":30495.62,"end":30497.62,"text":"請停止"},{"start":30497.37,"end":30499.37,"text":"好"},{"start":30499.37,"end":30501.37,"text":"就叫一下衛福部當初"},{"start":30501.37,"end":30503.37,"text":"考慮應該還是"},{"start":30503.37,"end":30505.37,"text":"要跟其他的"},{"start":30505.37,"end":30507.37,"text":"像老龍今天大概調伏多少"},{"start":30507.37,"end":30509.37,"text":"否則的話這邊高車很高"},{"start":30509.37,"end":30511.37,"text":"然後有的又低到很低"},{"start":30511.37,"end":30513.37,"text":"有這樣子的一個考量嗎"},{"start":30513.37,"end":30515.37,"text":"否則大家剛剛前面講真的"},{"start":30515.37,"end":30517.37,"text":"因為"},{"start":30517.37,"end":30519.37,"text":"物價上漲的話我覺得"},{"start":30519.37,"end":30521.37,"text":"現行制度這樣子的一個"},{"start":30521.37,"end":30523.37,"text":"金額到底能不能滿足"},{"start":30523.37,"end":30525.37,"text":"現行他們生活當中"},{"start":30525.37,"end":30527.37,"text":"所需"},{"start":30527.37,"end":30529.37,"text":"因為如果基本數比較偏低"},{"start":30529.37,"end":30531.37,"text":"就會很難反應那個通貨棚"},{"start":30531.37,"end":30533.37,"text":"的那個壓力在"},{"start":30533.37,"end":30535.37,"text":"也可能沒有辦法去"},{"start":30535.37,"end":30537.37,"text":"滋陰民眾生活最基本所需"},{"start":30537.37,"end":30539.37,"text":"所以可是還是有其他"},{"start":30539.37,"end":30541.37,"text":"要考量的否則的話"},{"start":30541.37,"end":30543.37,"text":"你生了這個另外一個"},{"start":30543.37,"end":30545.37,"text":"你沒有那是不是"},{"start":30545.37,"end":30547.37,"text":"全部通體要一起"},{"start":30547.37,"end":30549.37,"text":"要去做處理還是說"},{"start":30549.37,"end":30551.37,"text":"有考慮到這一塊所以是不是"},{"start":30551.37,"end":30553.37,"text":"等於你們也請一併回應一下"},{"start":30553.37,"end":30555.37,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":30555.31,"end":30557.31,"text":"好"},{"start":30556.42,"end":30558.42,"text":"請"},{"start":30586.42,"end":30588.42,"text":"請"},{"start":30596.23,"end":30598.23,"text":"那我們現在目前就是說"},{"start":30598.23,"end":30600.23,"text":"他等於一個座標"},{"start":30600.23,"end":30602.23,"text":"已經訂下來之後我們整個全部"},{"start":30602.23,"end":30604.23,"text":"這一個其他金額"},{"start":30604.23,"end":30606.23,"text":"全部都是對齊"},{"start":30606.23,"end":30608.23,"text":"所以這個是一個整個這個背景"},{"start":30608.23,"end":30610.23,"text":"那我可以理解現在目前就是說"},{"start":30610.23,"end":30612.23,"text":"可能我們也希望能夠"},{"start":30612.23,"end":30614.23,"text":"能夠再高一點可是"},{"start":30614.23,"end":30616.23,"text":"現在目前就成如剛剛"},{"start":30616.23,"end":30618.23,"text":"右行文委員剛剛所說的"},{"start":30618.23,"end":30620.23,"text":"如果說我們現在一旦這樣調高的話"},{"start":30620.23,"end":30622.23,"text":"我們預估如果說到"},{"start":30622.23,"end":30624.23,"text":"6000的話調伏事實上是48.2"},{"start":30624.56,"end":30626.56,"text":"那我也跟委員報告我們現在目前"},{"start":30626.56,"end":30628.56,"text":"光調這個23.5"},{"start":30628.56,"end":30630.56,"text":"其他的這個六大津貼"},{"start":30630.56,"end":30632.56,"text":"已經增加是860.5億"},{"start":30632.56,"end":30634.56,"text":"那我們曾經算過"},{"start":30634.56,"end":30636.56,"text":"如果到6000的話"},{"start":30637.2,"end":30639.2,"text":"是1032.5億"},{"start":30639.61,"end":30641.61,"text":"好那這個"},{"start":30641.07,"end":30643.07,"text":"第一個就是很平行的問題"},{"start":30643.07,"end":30645.07,"text":"我想最主要就是說"},{"start":30645.07,"end":30647.07,"text":"現在目前如果這邊一旦調的話"},{"start":30647.07,"end":30649.07,"text":"那可能老龍今天那邊可能會說"},{"start":30649.07,"end":30651.07,"text":"喔"},{"start":30651.07,"end":30653.07,"text":"我們現在目前"},{"start":30653.07,"end":30655.07,"text":"1萬多"},{"start":30655.07,"end":30657.07,"text":"是1萬嘛"},{"start":30657.07,"end":30659.07,"text":"對不對"},{"start":30659.07,"end":30661.07,"text":"我們現在已經調到1萬了"},{"start":30661.07,"end":30663.07,"text":"原先我記得好像是8"},{"start":30665.58,"end":30667.58,"text":"所以你的23.5又可能會被調"},{"start":30667.58,"end":30669.58,"text":"你這邊就會變低了喔"},{"start":30673.04,"end":30675.04,"text":"好請政廳常委"},{"start":30681.41,"end":30683.41,"text":"好因為這個部分"},{"start":30683.41,"end":30685.41,"text":"因為有黨團的提案"},{"start":30685.41,"end":30687.41,"text":"有民眾黨團的提案"},{"start":30687.41,"end":30689.41,"text":"也有國民黨團的提案"},{"start":30690.14,"end":30692.14,"text":"所以我的建議就是說這個部分"},{"start":30692.14,"end":30694.14,"text":"是不是就是"},{"start":30694.14,"end":30696.14,"text":"保留送協商"},{"start":30696.14,"end":30698.14,"text":"因為他也涉及到其他的條文"},{"start":30698.24,"end":30700.24,"text":"對對對"},{"start":30701.12,"end":30703.12,"text":"剛才講的那個"},{"start":30703.1,"end":30705.1,"text":"老龍那個部分"},{"start":30705.1,"end":30707.1,"text":"也會跟老龍那邊聯動"},{"start":30707.1,"end":30709.1,"text":"都會涉及到"},{"start":30709.1,"end":30711.1,"text":"所以要黨團要共同來討論"},{"start":30711.1,"end":30713.1,"text":"以上"},{"start":30713.1,"end":30715.1,"text":"好聯議全裁委"},{"start":30715.1,"end":30717.1,"text":"今天財政部有來嗎"},{"start":30717.1,"end":30719.1,"text":"我覺得這還是跟我們的財政有關聯性"},{"start":30719.1,"end":30721.1,"text":"是不是也一併說明"},{"start":30722,"end":30724,"text":"給錢給越多越好"},{"start":30724,"end":30726,"text":"如果我是要被"},{"start":30726,"end":30728,"text":"我要去領錢的人"},{"start":30728,"end":30730,"text":"我當然是如果有人給我"},{"start":30730,"end":30732,"text":"給越多"},{"start":30732,"end":30734,"text":"可是實際上還是要去看財政到底能不能"},{"start":30734,"end":30736,"text":"去因應"},{"start":30736,"end":30738,"text":"不是說我這條"},{"start":30738,"end":30740,"text":"另外一個也會講說"},{"start":30740,"end":30742,"text":"我也要調"},{"start":30742,"end":30744,"text":"那個老龍今天還有沒有其他的"},{"start":30744,"end":30746,"text":"今天也都要"},{"start":30746,"end":30748,"text":"那社會福利的其他要不要"},{"start":30748,"end":30750,"text":"因為他更弱勢啊"},{"start":30750,"end":30752,"text":"所以我覺得調得更高一點"},{"start":30752,"end":30754,"text":"所以我覺得這個要橫評來看"},{"start":30753.96,"end":30755.96,"text":"我覺得這才是比較務實的"},{"start":30755.96,"end":30757.96,"text":"否則的話"},{"start":30757.96,"end":30759.96,"text":"單一一個很高"},{"start":30759.96,"end":30761.96,"text":"我們立法院是只照顧這一群人嗎"},{"start":30761.96,"end":30763.96,"text":"其他不照顧嗎"},{"start":30763.96,"end":30765.96,"text":"那正正弱勢還沒照顧到勒"},{"start":30765.96,"end":30767.96,"text":"所以我覺得應該要去做考量"},{"start":30767.96,"end":30769.96,"text":"所以請財政部也說明一下"},{"start":30769.96,"end":30771.96,"text":"請財政部專委"},{"start":30770.97,"end":30772.97,"text":"主席各位委員跟先進大家好"},{"start":30772.97,"end":30774.97,"text":"那針對"},{"start":30774.97,"end":30776.97,"text":"目前的一個財政的情況"},{"start":30776.97,"end":30778.97,"text":"那以115年度"},{"start":30778.97,"end":30780.97,"text":"中央政府總預算的一個"},{"start":30780.97,"end":30782.97,"text":"如果說以舉債而度來看"},{"start":30782.97,"end":30784.97,"text":"那以115年度"},{"start":30784.97,"end":30786.97,"text":"那在"},{"start":30786.97,"end":30788.97,"text":"在流量的一個上限"},{"start":30788.97,"end":30790.97,"text":"大概是4900億"},{"start":30790.97,"end":30792.97,"text":"那"},{"start":30792.97,"end":30794.97,"text":"那"},{"start":30796.06,"end":30798.06,"text":"總預算的部分大概"},{"start":30798.06,"end":30800.06,"text":"就是大概左邊的大概2990億"},{"start":30800.06,"end":30802.06,"text":"所以扣掉的話"},{"start":30802.06,"end":30804.06,"text":"其實可供"},{"start":30804.06,"end":30806.06,"text":"舉債的一個額度其實"},{"start":30806.06,"end":30808.06,"text":"已經只剩1000多億"},{"start":30808.06,"end":30810.06,"text":"那如果剛剛如同"},{"start":30810.34,"end":30812.34,"text":"剛剛如果說從5000"},{"start":30812.34,"end":30814.34,"text":"提高到6000"},{"start":30814.34,"end":30816.34,"text":"那剛剛"},{"start":30817.19,"end":30819.19,"text":"財政負擔來講"},{"start":30819.19,"end":30821.19,"text":"其實是一個蠻沉重的"},{"start":30821.19,"end":30823.19,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":30829.34,"end":30831.34,"text":"那54條之一就保留"},{"start":30834.13,"end":30836.13,"text":"30條也是保留"},{"start":30836.65,"end":30838.65,"text":"好"},{"start":30837.9,"end":30839.9,"text":"那現在進行第31條"},{"start":30844.38,"end":30846.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":30846.87,"end":30848.87,"text":"大家"},{"start":30847.92,"end":30851.92,"text":"31條有關於老年基本保證年金的情理相關規定"},{"start":30851.92,"end":30853.92,"text":"那這邊的部分的話"},{"start":30853.92,"end":30855.92,"text":"也是有特別提到基本數額"},{"start":30855.92,"end":30857.92,"text":"的部分"},{"start":30857.92,"end":30859.92,"text":"那就如同剛才54條之一的保留"},{"start":30859.92,"end":30861.92,"text":"那這個31條可能也就是保留"},{"start":30861.92,"end":30863.92,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":30863.92,"end":30865.92,"text":"第31條保留"},{"start":30865.35,"end":30867.35,"text":"再進行第32條之二"},{"start":30873.54,"end":30875.54,"text":"32條之二是"},{"start":30875.54,"end":30877.54,"text":"新的"},{"start":30877.54,"end":30879.54,"text":"新增的一個條文"},{"start":30879.54,"end":30881.54,"text":"這邊是由民眾黨黨團"},{"start":30881.54,"end":30883.54,"text":"這邊所特別提出來的"},{"start":30883.54,"end":30885.54,"text":"那這邊的民眾黨黨團"},{"start":30885.54,"end":30889.54,"text":"這邊所提到的育兒給付的項目"},{"start":30889.54,"end":30891.54,"text":"如果按照"},{"start":30891.54,"end":30893.54,"text":"民眾黨黨團所提出來的"},{"start":30893.54,"end":30895.54,"text":"期募條件來做"},{"start":30895.54,"end":30897.54,"text":"估算的話"},{"start":30897.54,"end":30899.54,"text":"目前我們一年所需的經費"},{"start":30899.54,"end":30901.54,"text":"達145億元"},{"start":30901.54,"end":30903.54,"text":"而且這個部分的"},{"start":30903.54,"end":30905.54,"text":"建議的條文可能會"},{"start":30905.54,"end":30907.54,"text":"牽涉到其他社會保險的一個橫平性"},{"start":30907.54,"end":30909.54,"text":"那所以這個部分"},{"start":30909.54,"end":30911.54,"text":"也會涉及到國保基金的一個支出"},{"start":30911.54,"end":30913.54,"text":"跟政府的財政狀況"},{"start":30913.54,"end":30915.54,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望能夠謹慎評估"},{"start":30915.54,"end":30917.54,"text":"以上"},{"start":30916.5,"end":30918.5,"text":"好請就位"},{"start":30918.5,"end":30920.5,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":30920.5,"end":30922.5,"text":"那因為最主要就是因為"},{"start":30922.62,"end":30924.62,"text":"稍止花的關係"},{"start":30924.62,"end":30926.62,"text":"那我們也想催生可是有一些"},{"start":30926.62,"end":30928.62,"text":"育齡婦女"},{"start":30928.62,"end":30930.62,"text":"他們就是可能有"},{"start":30930.62,"end":30932.62,"text":"經濟上的困頓"},{"start":30932.62,"end":30934.62,"text":"那特別是對於一些沒有進入"},{"start":30934.62,"end":30936.62,"text":"一些職場的他們可能"},{"start":30936.62,"end":30938.62,"text":"在各項社會福利"},{"start":30938.62,"end":30940.62,"text":"給付上又面臨"},{"start":30940.62,"end":30942.62,"text":"更大的一個經濟上的挑戰"},{"start":30942.62,"end":30944.62,"text":"所以我們這邊才提到說"},{"start":30944.62,"end":30946.62,"text":"如果你被保險人他"},{"start":30946.62,"end":30948.62,"text":"符合一個子女的"},{"start":30948.62,"end":30950.62,"text":"前提條件就是未滿五歲的子女"},{"start":30950.62,"end":30952.62,"text":"或者是未滿十二歲"},{"start":30952.62,"end":30954.62,"text":"然後有身心障礙的子女"},{"start":30954.62,"end":30956.62,"text":"那這樣父或母其中一方沒有進入就業"},{"start":30956.62,"end":30958.62,"text":"市場"},{"start":30958.62,"end":30960.62,"text":"那就是沒有領有報酬就是五星"},{"start":30960.62,"end":30962.62,"text":"沒有薪水"},{"start":30962.62,"end":30964.62,"text":"那就是說應該給他一些育兒給付"},{"start":30964.62,"end":30966.62,"text":"來做為經濟上的後盾"},{"start":30966.62,"end":30968.62,"text":"那經濟上給付的數"},{"start":30968.62,"end":30970.62,"text":"我們就是用三十條第一項的規定"},{"start":30970.62,"end":30972.62,"text":"三十一條的計算方式"},{"start":30972.62,"end":30974.62,"text":"經由有A"},{"start":30974.62,"end":30976.62,"text":"A公式跟B公式"},{"start":30976.62,"end":30978.62,"text":"那就是看哪一個對父母的"},{"start":30978.62,"end":30980.62,"text":"前面這筆育兒金費用的"},{"start":30980.62,"end":30982.62,"text":"計算比較從優"},{"start":30982.62,"end":30984.62,"text":"那就是擇定那個方式"},{"start":30984.62,"end":30986.62,"text":"那除此之外"},{"start":30986.43,"end":30988.43,"text":"再按"},{"start":30988.43,"end":30990.43,"text":"月頭保金額"},{"start":30990.43,"end":30992.43,"text":"中給兩個月的育兒給付"},{"start":30992.43,"end":30994.43,"text":"那其實基本上就是"},{"start":30994.43,"end":30996.43,"text":"希望能夠讓父母"},{"start":30996.43,"end":30998.43,"text":"感生感養"},{"start":30998.43,"end":31000.43,"text":"那對於一些沒有進入就業市場的人"},{"start":31000.43,"end":31002.43,"text":"讓他們有一些"},{"start":31002.43,"end":31004.43,"text":"微薄的經濟後盾這樣"},{"start":31004.43,"end":31006.43,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":31009.94,"end":31011.94,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":31010.97,"end":31012.97,"text":"問行政機關對"},{"start":31012.97,"end":31014.97,"text":"你身家給付的"},{"start":31014.97,"end":31016.97,"text":"就是這邊就是"},{"start":31016.97,"end":31018.97,"text":"衛福部有提到兩個理由嗎"},{"start":31018.97,"end":31020.97,"text":"第一個理由就是一百四十五億"},{"start":31020.97,"end":31022.97,"text":"然後第二個理由就是說會"},{"start":31022.97,"end":31024.97,"text":"就是可以再說明一下嗎"},{"start":31024.97,"end":31026.97,"text":"就是說會影響"},{"start":31026.97,"end":31028.97,"text":"就是以其他的社會福利"},{"start":31028.97,"end":31030.97,"text":"給付的角度來說會有不公平"},{"start":31030.97,"end":31032.97,"text":"可以給我們幾個例子"},{"start":31032.97,"end":31034.97,"text":"的"},{"start":31034.22,"end":31036.22,"text":"不公平嗎"},{"start":31035.91,"end":31037.91,"text":"好"},{"start":31037.05,"end":31039.05,"text":"請理事長"},{"start":31038.76,"end":31040.76,"text":"非常感謝"},{"start":31040.76,"end":31042.76,"text":"對於我們"},{"start":31042.76,"end":31044.76,"text":"未滿五歲"},{"start":31044.76,"end":31046.76,"text":"或未滿十二歲身障幼童"},{"start":31046.76,"end":31048.76,"text":"的這一個育兒給付"},{"start":31048.76,"end":31050.76,"text":"的一個質詢"},{"start":31050.76,"end":31052.76,"text":"其實基本上我們也可以理解"},{"start":31052.76,"end":31054.76,"text":"那我跟委員報告現在目前就是說"},{"start":31054.76,"end":31056.76,"text":"零到六歲"},{"start":31056.76,"end":31058.76,"text":"國家一起養我們現在目前是"},{"start":31058.76,"end":31060.76,"text":"未滿兩歲的話"},{"start":31060.76,"end":31062.76,"text":"是每個月五千元"},{"start":31062.76,"end":31064.76,"text":"另外一個我們現在目前一個新的政策"},{"start":31064.76,"end":31066.76,"text":"就是成長津貼"},{"start":31066.76,"end":31068.76,"text":"那總統之前也已經有提出來"},{"start":31068.76,"end":31070.76,"text":"是零到十八歲"},{"start":31070.76,"end":31072.76,"text":"我們未來"},{"start":31072.76,"end":31074.76,"text":"除了零到六歲的五千塊之外"},{"start":31074.76,"end":31076.76,"text":"另外六到十八也會"},{"start":31076.76,"end":31078.76,"text":"另外再有五千塊"},{"start":31078.76,"end":31080.76,"text":"那另外的五千塊當然是"},{"start":31080.76,"end":31082.76,"text":"兩千五現金兩千五是"},{"start":31082.76,"end":31084.76,"text":"提存啦"},{"start":31084.76,"end":31086.76,"text":"但是基本上就是說這個整個"},{"start":31086.76,"end":31088.76,"text":"加起來的話零到六歲的話可能"},{"start":31088.76,"end":31090.76,"text":"第一個小朋友五千加五千就一萬囉"},{"start":31090.76,"end":31092.76,"text":"那六到十八的話就另外"},{"start":31092.76,"end":31094.76,"text":"五千所以基本上其實也可以"},{"start":31094.76,"end":31096.76,"text":"來作為剛剛委員你剛剛所說的"},{"start":31096.76,"end":31098.76,"text":"這個部分的這一個"},{"start":31098.76,"end":31100.76,"text":"等於就等於你說如果五葉的"},{"start":31100.76,"end":31102.76,"text":"父母其實他們以後已經有"},{"start":31102.76,"end":31104.76,"text":"就是那個你說的津貼"},{"start":31104.76,"end":31106.76,"text":"那方面可以領沒錯"},{"start":31106.76,"end":31108.76,"text":"因為我們考量的是五葉的父母他"},{"start":31108.76,"end":31110.76,"text":"他可能也沒有經濟"},{"start":31110.76,"end":31112.76,"text":"收入然後想要給他一些經濟上"},{"start":31112.76,"end":31114.76,"text":"的一個支持包委員因為這個部分"},{"start":31114.76,"end":31116.76,"text":"完全是不完全是不排富"},{"start":31116.76,"end":31118.76,"text":"所以不管有業五業全部都是"},{"start":31118.76,"end":31120.76,"text":"都是統一零到六歲"},{"start":31120.76,"end":31122.76,"text":"變一萬塊那個六到十八"},{"start":31122.76,"end":31124.76,"text":"所以這個的話其實基本上"},{"start":31124.76,"end":31126.76,"text":"就應該某種程度可以也回應"},{"start":31126.76,"end":31128.76,"text":"所以你的意思就是說"},{"start":31128.76,"end":31130.76,"text":"那個零到十八歲這一部分"},{"start":31130.76,"end":31132.76,"text":"其實就可以消滅我們的疑慮"},{"start":31132.76,"end":31134.76,"text":"那除此之外因為我們講到"},{"start":31134.76,"end":31136.76,"text":"什麼社會給付福利"},{"start":31136.76,"end":31138.76,"text":"所以我也請教一下因為我"},{"start":31138.76,"end":31140.76,"text":"我覺得這個倒是可以讓我進一步"},{"start":31140.76,"end":31142.76,"text":"去思考這個東西怎麼"},{"start":31142.76,"end":31144.76,"text":"該審做因為"},{"start":31144.76,"end":31146.76,"text":"勞保嘛不是就是有就業的勞工嗎"},{"start":31146.76,"end":31148.76,"text":"那勞保他給付的對象"},{"start":31148.76,"end":31150.76,"text":"是不是生老病死失能"},{"start":31150.76,"end":31152.76,"text":"生老病死生嘛就生育嘛"},{"start":31152.76,"end":31154.76,"text":"然後生老病死"},{"start":31154.76,"end":31156.76,"text":"失能嘛那他有給付"},{"start":31156.76,"end":31158.76,"text":"生育那國民年金"},{"start":31158.76,"end":31160.76,"text":"是不是有給付也是有給付生育"},{"start":31160.76,"end":31162.76,"text":"然後勞保他們有給付育兒"},{"start":31162.76,"end":31164.76,"text":"但是我們這邊現在"},{"start":31164.76,"end":31166.76,"text":"要爭取育兒可能就會"},{"start":31166.76,"end":31168.76,"text":"有那種社會福利的"},{"start":31168.76,"end":31170.76,"text":"社會給付的不公平"},{"start":31170.76,"end":31172.76,"text":"因為你剛講社會給付我聯想的"},{"start":31172.76,"end":31174.76,"text":"倒是這邊所以我才想說"},{"start":31174.76,"end":31176.76,"text":"我來思考一下"},{"start":31179.63,"end":31181.63,"text":"國保有三就是前我們就是看到"},{"start":31181.63,"end":31183.63,"text":"前一條有生育給付才想說"},{"start":31183.63,"end":31185.63,"text":"再加個再加碼一下來個"},{"start":31185.63,"end":31187.63,"text":"育兒給付那因為剛那個"},{"start":31187.63,"end":31189.63,"text":"張"},{"start":31189.57,"end":31191.57,"text":"長官長官"},{"start":31191.57,"end":31193.57,"text":"好那個因為他有提到說"},{"start":31193.57,"end":31195.57,"text":"從社會給付的角度"},{"start":31195.57,"end":31197.57,"text":"來看似乎不公平我是去想到"},{"start":31197.57,"end":31199.57,"text":"勞保結果那個副"},{"start":31199.57,"end":31201.57,"text":"次長啦次長就講到"},{"start":31201.57,"end":31203.57,"text":"那個什麼今天那邊啊我是"},{"start":31203.57,"end":31205.57,"text":"想到說勞保是不是因為生老病"},{"start":31205.57,"end":31207.57,"text":"死沒有育兒那這邊"},{"start":31207.57,"end":31209.57,"text":"如果有育兒的話你們的考量"},{"start":31209.57,"end":31211.57,"text":"會覺得比較不公平"},{"start":31212.01,"end":31214.01,"text":"就教一下"},{"start":31214.24,"end":31215.24,"text":"喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔"},{"start":31215.88,"end":31217.88,"text":"朱熙我可不可以講一下"},{"start":31217.88,"end":31220.38,"text":"因為這個有一個我也要理"},{"start":31221.19,"end":31222.19,"text":"詢問喔"},{"start":31223.35,"end":31225.35,"text":"如果喔一方沒就業"},{"start":31225.35,"end":31226.35,"text":"而另外一方"},{"start":31227.07,"end":31228.07,"text":"經濟收入非常高"},{"start":31228.07,"end":31229.07,"text":"這樣就可以喔"},{"start":31229.07,"end":31231.07,"text":"因為這只有限定一個條件"},{"start":31231.07,"end":31233.07,"text":"就是一方沒有就業"},{"start":31233.07,"end":31234.07,"text":"沒有就業的話"},{"start":31234.07,"end":31237.07,"text":"那我另外一方薪水領得很高"},{"start":31237.07,"end":31239.07,"text":"滿盤滿缽的也可以來"},{"start":31239.07,"end":31240.07,"text":"所以我不太理解"},{"start":31240.07,"end":31242.07,"text":"那個限制條件是怎麼樣"},{"start":31242.07,"end":31245.07,"text":"只要有一方沒有就業就可以"},{"start":31245.85,"end":31247.85,"text":"沒有沒有這個邏輯上"},{"start":31247.85,"end":31249.85,"text":"我只是對法條邏輯上我不太了解"},{"start":31251,"end":31254,"text":"那過去過去我們在講社會救助的時候"},{"start":31254,"end":31256,"text":"還會碰到一個狀況就是說"},{"start":31256,"end":31257,"text":"我那房子都"},{"start":31258.25,"end":31261.25,"text":"租給人家可是因為沒有實質上的"},{"start":31261.25,"end":31263.25,"text":"所謂的去繳稅"},{"start":31263.25,"end":31265.25,"text":"我都在收房租可是我還是可以領"},{"start":31265.25,"end":31267.25,"text":"因為這很難查證"},{"start":31267.25,"end":31269.25,"text":"第一周過去我們就一直碰到這種困難"},{"start":31269.25,"end":31271.25,"text":"如果現在這樣子的條件限制"},{"start":31271.25,"end":31272.25,"text":"我還滿擔心的"},{"start":31273.05,"end":31275.05,"text":"那到底真的事實上是"},{"start":31275.05,"end":31278.05,"text":"是讓人家去領的不該領的福利"},{"start":31278.05,"end":31280.05,"text":"還是事實上是真的照顧到"},{"start":31280.05,"end":31282.05,"text":"該照顧到的這要理清"},{"start":31282.05,"end":31283.05,"text":"我也想問一下"},{"start":31283.05,"end":31284.05,"text":"這法條我看起來"},{"start":31284.05,"end":31285.05,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":31286.85,"end":31288.85,"text":"滿腦子問號以上"},{"start":31291.01,"end":31293.01,"text":"請問政協委員"},{"start":31294.09,"end":31295.09,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":31297.08,"end":31301.08,"text":"應該是很希望能夠把所有的人都照顧進來"},{"start":31301.08,"end":31303.08,"text":"不過我們也了解"},{"start":31303.08,"end":31305.08,"text":"畢竟在這個社會上"},{"start":31305.08,"end":31307.08,"text":"我們還是希望能夠有更多"},{"start":31308.34,"end":31311.34,"text":"讓這個公平性也得到大家的確認"},{"start":31311.34,"end":31315.34,"text":"所以我想如果是這種方式的話"},{"start":31315.34,"end":31317.34,"text":"又沒有設定任何條件"},{"start":31317.34,"end":31320.34,"text":"碰到的問題可能會讓大家覺得"},{"start":31320.34,"end":31322.34,"text":"社會真的就是會這樣"},{"start":31322.34,"end":31325.34,"text":"用這樣的態度來做公平的對待"},{"start":31325.34,"end":31326.34,"text":"我知道"},{"start":31326.34,"end":31329.34,"text":"我覺得月勤委員跟那個政訊委員"},{"start":31329.34,"end":31330.34,"text":"都給我們一些思考"},{"start":31330.34,"end":31331.34,"text":"然後我剛"},{"start":31331.34,"end":31333.34,"text":"我們也在思考"},{"start":31333.34,"end":31334.34,"text":"如果未來這個"},{"start":31334.34,"end":31336.34,"text":"我們台灣未來帳戶0到18歲"},{"start":31336.34,"end":31338.34,"text":"都有一些經濟上的補助"},{"start":31338.34,"end":31340.34,"text":"也許在這邊可以再做一個思考"},{"start":31340.34,"end":31342.34,"text":"那我只是因為聽到那個"},{"start":31342.34,"end":31344.34,"text":"張玉璇那個長官"},{"start":31344.34,"end":31346.34,"text":"不知道你的頭銜"},{"start":31346.34,"end":31347.34,"text":"抱歉"},{"start":31347.34,"end":31349.34,"text":"那代理市長"},{"start":31349.34,"end":31351.34,"text":"因為你提到社會給付"},{"start":31351.34,"end":31352.34,"text":"我才想說"},{"start":31352.34,"end":31354.34,"text":"我也要一個理由說服我自己"},{"start":31354.34,"end":31355.34,"text":"要不然我們這條文"},{"start":31355.34,"end":31357.34,"text":"其實也是利益良善這樣子"},{"start":31362,"end":31363,"text":"謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":31363,"end":31366,"text":"那因為我們有特別提到是說"},{"start":31366,"end":31367,"text":"因為這邊的條件是說"},{"start":31367,"end":31370,"text":"任一方就是可能婦或母"},{"start":31370,"end":31372,"text":"那可能就是另外一方"},{"start":31372,"end":31374,"text":"是有工作的狀態"},{"start":31374,"end":31376,"text":"那所以有工作的狀態的時候"},{"start":31376,"end":31377,"text":"我們這邊就有特別提到是說"},{"start":31377,"end":31380,"text":"也有可能他的情況是屬於留職停薪"},{"start":31380,"end":31381,"text":"在其他的保險"},{"start":31381,"end":31383,"text":"社會保險例如是這個"},{"start":31383,"end":31384,"text":"就業保險裡面"},{"start":31384,"end":31386,"text":"他是有一些相關的津貼"},{"start":31386,"end":31387,"text":"或者補助"},{"start":31387,"end":31389,"text":"所以這樣的話可能在"},{"start":31389,"end":31391,"text":"領取上我們認為可能"},{"start":31391,"end":31393,"text":"會有重複的情況"},{"start":31393,"end":31394,"text":"但是這個部分可能我們"},{"start":31394,"end":31397,"text":"就是還要再看每個個案的情況"},{"start":31397,"end":31398,"text":"再來做一個論斷"},{"start":31398,"end":31399,"text":"那另外一個部分"},{"start":31399,"end":31401,"text":"就是我們考慮到說"},{"start":31401,"end":31405,"text":"當然就是民眾黨這邊的利益是非常好"},{"start":31405,"end":31407,"text":"那如果沒有特別提出"},{"start":31407,"end":31409,"text":"排富的一個情況的時候"},{"start":31409,"end":31411,"text":"我們確實會有一些擔憂"},{"start":31411,"end":31413,"text":"就是說可能會造成資源的排擠"},{"start":31413,"end":31414,"text":"以上"},{"start":31414,"end":31415,"text":"好了解"},{"start":31415,"end":31416,"text":"OK好"},{"start":31416,"end":31417,"text":"那沒有問題"},{"start":31417,"end":31418,"text":"我們再思考一下好了"},{"start":31418,"end":31420,"text":"所以這條是不予甄定嗎"},{"start":31420,"end":31421,"text":"不予甄定"},{"start":31421,"end":31422,"text":"對謝謝"},{"start":31422,"end":31424,"text":"32條之二不予甄定"},{"start":31425.65,"end":31427.65,"text":"再進行第34條"},{"start":31430.9,"end":31432.9,"text":"34條的部分"},{"start":31432.9,"end":31435.9,"text":"是針對身障年金的勤勉規定"},{"start":31435.9,"end":31437.9,"text":"那這個部分呢"},{"start":31437.9,"end":31439.9,"text":"是針對基本數額"},{"start":31439.9,"end":31441.9,"text":"還有經費負擔歸屬的問題"},{"start":31441.9,"end":31443.9,"text":"那這個部分的條文"},{"start":31443.9,"end":31445.9,"text":"如同剛才我們特別提到"},{"start":31445.9,"end":31446.9,"text":"基本數額就會"},{"start":31446.9,"end":31450.9,"text":"就是連動到54條之一的一個條文"},{"start":31450.9,"end":31452.9,"text":"那另外一個就是經費負擔部分"},{"start":31452.9,"end":31454.9,"text":"就是修正條文的36條"},{"start":31454.9,"end":31456.9,"text":"都是很重要的條文"},{"start":31456.9,"end":31457.9,"text":"所以這個部分我們建議保留"},{"start":31457.9,"end":31458.9,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":31461.14,"end":31463.14,"text":"第34條保留"},{"start":31463.14,"end":31465.14,"text":"那現在進行第35條"},{"start":31468.18,"end":31469.18,"text":"35條的部分"},{"start":31469.18,"end":31473.18,"text":"一樣是針對身障基本保證年金的一個勤勉規定"},{"start":31473.18,"end":31475.18,"text":"那這個部分的話"},{"start":31475.18,"end":31476.18,"text":"我們是建議保留"},{"start":31476.18,"end":31479.18,"text":"因為是跟54條之一是有相關的"},{"start":31479.18,"end":31480.18,"text":"以上"},{"start":31480.39,"end":31482.39,"text":"第35條保留"},{"start":31482.39,"end":31484.39,"text":"現在進行第36條"},{"start":31485.07,"end":31487.07,"text":"36條的部分是"},{"start":31487.07,"end":31488.07,"text":"委員吳思耀等"},{"start":31488.07,"end":31490.07,"text":"所提出來的經費負擔"},{"start":31490.07,"end":31492.07,"text":"那這個部分是有提到"},{"start":31492.07,"end":31495.07,"text":"中央跟地方政府來分攤"},{"start":31495.07,"end":31497.07,"text":"這一次的一個負擔比例"},{"start":31497.07,"end":31499.07,"text":"那這個部分的話"},{"start":31499.07,"end":31502.07,"text":"我想這個部分應該是先尊重委員的討論"},{"start":31502.07,"end":31504.07,"text":"那如果沒有達成共同的話"},{"start":31504.07,"end":31506.07,"text":"應該也是予以保留的"},{"start":31506.72,"end":31507.72,"text":"第36條保留"},{"start":31508.9,"end":31509.9,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":31509.9,"end":31510.9,"text":"第36條保留"},{"start":31513.86,"end":31515.86,"text":"那進行第39條"},{"start":31517.47,"end":31519.47,"text":"好"},{"start":31518.97,"end":31520.97,"text":"39條的部分是有關於"},{"start":31520.97,"end":31523.97,"text":"傷障給付的勤勉規定"},{"start":31523.97,"end":31526.97,"text":"那在這個39條的條文裡面的話"},{"start":31526.97,"end":31528.97,"text":"是有兩個重點"},{"start":31528.97,"end":31530.97,"text":"第一個重點是給付額度"},{"start":31530.97,"end":31534.97,"text":"第二個重點是針對擴大的適用範圍"},{"start":31534.97,"end":31538.97,"text":"那針對這個給付額度的部分的話"},{"start":31538.97,"end":31543.97,"text":"這個部分委員有提出提高給付10個月"},{"start":31543.97,"end":31547.97,"text":"或者是15個月不等的這個建議"},{"start":31547.97,"end":31549.97,"text":"這就是第一個部分"},{"start":31549.97,"end":31551.97,"text":"那第二個部分的話"},{"start":31551.97,"end":31555.97,"text":"針對擴大傷障給付的適用範圍的部分"},{"start":31555.97,"end":31559.97,"text":"那國民黨黨團這邊所提出來的建議是"},{"start":31559.97,"end":31563.97,"text":"在老年年金期間死亡者均得勤領"},{"start":31563.97,"end":31566.97,"text":"那當然我們也有做一些經費的評估"},{"start":31566.97,"end":31568.97,"text":"好那這個經費的評估的話"},{"start":31568.97,"end":31571.97,"text":"就是一年會增加72億元"},{"start":31571.97,"end":31573.97,"text":"那因為我們會審酌說"},{"start":31573.97,"end":31575.97,"text":"這個與社會保險制度是不同的"},{"start":31575.97,"end":31578.97,"text":"因為我們知道在傷障給付的部分"},{"start":31578.97,"end":31581.97,"text":"所有的社會保險都是在保險期間"},{"start":31581.97,"end":31584.97,"text":"發生事故的時候才予以保險給付的"},{"start":31584.97,"end":31586.97,"text":"那如果在這邊的話"},{"start":31586.97,"end":31588.97,"text":"是把這個適用範圍擴大"},{"start":31588.97,"end":31593.97,"text":"變成是只要在老年年金的期間死亡的話"},{"start":31593.97,"end":31594.97,"text":"都可以勤領的話"},{"start":31594.97,"end":31597.97,"text":"那這邊就可能會增加國保的財務負擔"},{"start":31597.97,"end":31600.97,"text":"而且會另外就是還要去尋求裁員"},{"start":31600.97,"end":31602.97,"text":"那這個部分的話"},{"start":31602.97,"end":31604.97,"text":"我們認為要審慎評估"},{"start":31604.97,"end":31605.97,"text":"好"},{"start":31605.81,"end":31606.81,"text":"請"},{"start":31606.97,"end":31607.97,"text":"請鄭天才委員"},{"start":31607.97,"end":31609.97,"text":"再來王振旭委員"},{"start":31612.47,"end":31615.47,"text":"我的修正條文是15個頁"},{"start":31615.47,"end":31617.47,"text":"主要的理由就是因為"},{"start":31618.4,"end":31623.4,"text":"這個農民健康保險條例第40條的規定"},{"start":31623.78,"end":31625.78,"text":"傷障給付是15個頁"},{"start":31626.85,"end":31629.85,"text":"現行的農民健康保險條例40條"},{"start":31629.85,"end":31632.85,"text":"就是傷障給付是15個頁"},{"start":31632.85,"end":31634.85,"text":"所以我的修正條文就是"},{"start":31634.85,"end":31637.85,"text":"因為這個會參加"},{"start":31637.85,"end":31640.85,"text":"會適用在國民年金"},{"start":31640.85,"end":31641.85,"text":"就是它沒有"},{"start":31642.7,"end":31644.7,"text":"公保君保"},{"start":31645.13,"end":31646.13,"text":"也沒有農保"},{"start":31647.05,"end":31649.05,"text":"是最底層的"},{"start":31649.05,"end":31650.05,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":31650.05,"end":31652.05,"text":"應該要做這樣的一個配合"},{"start":31657.41,"end":31658.41,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":31658.41,"end":31659.41,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":31659.41,"end":31661.41,"text":"針對第39條"},{"start":31661.41,"end":31663.41,"text":"我們在第一項的部分"},{"start":31663.41,"end":31665.41,"text":"是希望把這個5個月"},{"start":31665.41,"end":31669.41,"text":"修正為10個月的這個傷障給付"},{"start":31669.41,"end":31672.41,"text":"因為目前考量我國社會"},{"start":31672.41,"end":31674.41,"text":"隨著這個經濟的發展"},{"start":31674.41,"end":31676.41,"text":"物價也隨著成長"},{"start":31676.41,"end":31678.41,"text":"國保年金的這個傷障給付"},{"start":31678.41,"end":31681.41,"text":"應該有相應調整的空間"},{"start":31681.41,"end":31684.41,"text":"而且這個傷障給付"},{"start":31684.41,"end":31686.41,"text":"最重要它是一次性的給付"},{"start":31686.41,"end":31688.41,"text":"對財務上的這些"},{"start":31688.41,"end":31690.41,"text":"比較能夠估算跟負擔"},{"start":31690.41,"end":31692.41,"text":"剛剛我們代理師長"},{"start":31692.41,"end":31693.41,"text":"是有提到說"},{"start":31693.41,"end":31696.41,"text":"會不會有增加財務很大的負擔"},{"start":31696.41,"end":31697.41,"text":"其實這個是相對來講"},{"start":31697.41,"end":31700.41,"text":"它是比較有機會去考量"},{"start":31700.41,"end":31702.41,"text":"而且它是一次性的給付"},{"start":31702.41,"end":31704.41,"text":"所以比較能夠有機會"},{"start":31704.41,"end":31706.41,"text":"做好的一些處理模式"},{"start":31706.41,"end":31708.41,"text":"那另外再考量"},{"start":31708.41,"end":31709.41,"text":"在這個目前"},{"start":31709.41,"end":31711.41,"text":"不管是勞工保險"},{"start":31711.41,"end":31712.41,"text":"或是農民健康保險"},{"start":31712.41,"end":31715.41,"text":"其他社會保險的給付額度"},{"start":31715.41,"end":31717.41,"text":"跟橫平性相較之下"},{"start":31717.41,"end":31720.41,"text":"十個月算是相對橫平"},{"start":31720.41,"end":31722.41,"text":"所以才會建議把這個"},{"start":31722.41,"end":31724.41,"text":"五個月調成十個月以上"},{"start":31724.41,"end":31726.41,"text":"好 前提請教委"},{"start":31726.92,"end":31728.92,"text":"好 這一條我會覺得"},{"start":31728.92,"end":31730.92,"text":"我們年金的傷障給付調升"},{"start":31730.92,"end":31731.92,"text":"當然我覺得"},{"start":31732.64,"end":31735.64,"text":"有部分委員事實上把"},{"start":31735.64,"end":31737.64,"text":"國民年金的傷障給付"},{"start":31737.64,"end":31739.64,"text":"由五個月調高到十個月"},{"start":31739.64,"end":31741.64,"text":"而且給付的金額"},{"start":31741.64,"end":31744.64,"text":"由十萬調高到大約二十萬"},{"start":31744.84,"end":31746.84,"text":"那如果依照這樣子的話"},{"start":31746.84,"end":31748.84,"text":"我看衛福部是講說"},{"start":31748.84,"end":31749.84,"text":"大概要每年要增加"},{"start":31749.84,"end":31751.84,"text":"十二億的基金的支出"},{"start":31753.11,"end":31754.11,"text":"嗯"},{"start":31754.49,"end":31756.49,"text":"我覺得這個可能主計處"},{"start":31756.49,"end":31757.49,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":31758.24,"end":31761.24,"text":"應該是不是上次也有提醒說"},{"start":31761.24,"end":31763.24,"text":"上次討論的時候就是說"},{"start":31763.24,"end":31766.24,"text":"要兼顧到國保基金的財務健全"},{"start":31766.24,"end":31768.24,"text":"跟長期的精算"},{"start":31768.24,"end":31769.24,"text":"要考慮還是一樣"},{"start":31769.24,"end":31770.24,"text":"同樣的問題就是說"},{"start":31771.59,"end":31772.59,"text":"到底我們有多少錢"},{"start":31772.59,"end":31774.59,"text":"我的家裡如果只有五萬塊"},{"start":31774.59,"end":31776.59,"text":"我能花的也就只有這樣子"},{"start":31776.59,"end":31778.59,"text":"如果一直在舉債的話"},{"start":31778.59,"end":31779.59,"text":"那債留子孫到底"},{"start":31780.58,"end":31781.58,"text":"好好不好"},{"start":31781.58,"end":31783.58,"text":"那我相信年輕人也會很有感"},{"start":31783.58,"end":31786.58,"text":"我們一直把債務放在他身上"},{"start":31786.58,"end":31787.58,"text":"那另外國民年金"},{"start":31787.58,"end":31788.58,"text":"本來就屬於保險性質"},{"start":31788.58,"end":31790.58,"text":"按照保險的精神"},{"start":31790.58,"end":31791.58,"text":"傷障補助請領資格值"},{"start":31791.58,"end":31793.58,"text":"限定在被保險人期間"},{"start":31793.58,"end":31795.58,"text":"未滿六十五歲"},{"start":31796.02,"end":31798.02,"text":"所以因此發生了那個"},{"start":31798.02,"end":31800.02,"text":"繳滿年金超過六十五歲"},{"start":31800.02,"end":31802.02,"text":"無法領取傷障給付"},{"start":31802.02,"end":31803.02,"text":"所以國民黨提案是"},{"start":31803.02,"end":31805.02,"text":"要讓被保險的超過六十五歲"},{"start":31805.02,"end":31807.02,"text":"也可以領上那種給付"},{"start":31807.02,"end":31809.02,"text":"我覺得這個可能"},{"start":31809.02,"end":31811.02,"text":"也要去思考到這一點"},{"start":31811.02,"end":31812.02,"text":"因為如果有一個人"},{"start":31812.02,"end":31814.02,"text":"他超過了六十五歲"},{"start":31814.82,"end":31816.82,"text":"他領了一年就死亡"},{"start":31816.82,"end":31818.82,"text":"那他領了十二個月六萬塊"},{"start":31818.82,"end":31819.82,"text":"傷障補助十萬塊"},{"start":31819.82,"end":31820.82,"text":"所以是要用那個"},{"start":31820.82,"end":31822.82,"text":"十萬去扣掉那個六萬嗎"},{"start":31822.82,"end":31824.82,"text":"然後衛福部去補四萬嗎"},{"start":31824.82,"end":31826.82,"text":"所以我真的是要去"},{"start":31826.82,"end":31829.82,"text":"我覺得這中間要去釐清這個"},{"start":31829.82,"end":31830.82,"text":"還有剛剛"},{"start":31832.39,"end":31834.39,"text":"天才委員講說"},{"start":31834.39,"end":31836.39,"text":"你是用農保的角度上來看"},{"start":31836.39,"end":31838.39,"text":"因為農保沒有"},{"start":31838.39,"end":31839.39,"text":"所謂的遺囑年金的制度"},{"start":31839.39,"end":31841.39,"text":"所以才會一次性傷障給付"},{"start":31841.39,"end":31843.39,"text":"會比較高"},{"start":31843.39,"end":31846.39,"text":"因為以補足死亡的一個保障"},{"start":31846.39,"end":31847.39,"text":"所以不能用這個"},{"start":31847.39,"end":31849.39,"text":"因為老保或國保"},{"start":31849.39,"end":31850.39,"text":"都有所謂的"},{"start":31850.39,"end":31852.39,"text":"遺囑年金的制度"},{"start":31852.39,"end":31854.39,"text":"所以那個金額上也要去考慮"},{"start":31854.39,"end":31856.39,"text":"所以我說上次就有請"},{"start":31856.39,"end":31858.39,"text":"衛福部跟主計書都要去"},{"start":31858.39,"end":31860.39,"text":"有沒有去提出我們比較精算"},{"start":31860.39,"end":31862.39,"text":"財務的影響分析"},{"start":31862.39,"end":31864.39,"text":"我不知道分析的結果是什麼樣"},{"start":31864.39,"end":31866.39,"text":"而且衛福部到底能接受到"},{"start":31866.39,"end":31867.39,"text":"延長到幾個月"},{"start":31867.39,"end":31868.39,"text":"剛剛講五個月"},{"start":31868.39,"end":31870.39,"text":"有人到十個月"},{"start":31870.39,"end":31873.39,"text":"甚至針對超過65歲以上"},{"start":31873.39,"end":31875.39,"text":"沒有辦法理傷障補助"},{"start":31875.39,"end":31877.39,"text":"衛福部有沒有要調整"},{"start":31877.39,"end":31878.39,"text":"所以我覺得這個可能"},{"start":31878.39,"end":31879.39,"text":"今天等一下是不是可以"},{"start":31879.39,"end":31881.39,"text":"麻煩回答一下謝謝"},{"start":31881.39,"end":31882.39,"text":"請問不說明"},{"start":31884.69,"end":31885.69,"text":"非常感謝幾位委員"},{"start":31885.69,"end":31887.69,"text":"對於本案的一個關切"},{"start":31887.69,"end":31889.69,"text":"我想這個還是要"},{"start":31889.69,"end":31891.69,"text":"有一個基本的概念"},{"start":31891.69,"end":31892.69,"text":"沒錯"},{"start":31893.39,"end":31896.39,"text":"這些國保農保勞保公教保"},{"start":31896.39,"end":31899.39,"text":"都是台灣的社會福利體系的一環"},{"start":31899.82,"end":31900.82,"text":"但是"},{"start":31901.48,"end":31903.48,"text":"這裡面有一個很大的區別在於"},{"start":31903.48,"end":31905.48,"text":"一個是職業別一個是非職業別"},{"start":31905.71,"end":31907.71,"text":"公保農保勞保基本上就是說"},{"start":31907.71,"end":31909.71,"text":"你過去有過這個整個就業的"},{"start":31909.71,"end":31911.71,"text":"一個整個經歷"},{"start":31911.71,"end":31913.71,"text":"那基本上是為了要鼓勵就業"},{"start":31913.71,"end":31915.71,"text":"基本上他的相關的給付"},{"start":31915.71,"end":31916.71,"text":"不管就是基數"},{"start":31916.71,"end":31917.71,"text":"還有他的整個福利項目"},{"start":31917.71,"end":31918.71,"text":"基本上都會比較高"},{"start":31919.52,"end":31921.52,"text":"這是一個整個社會保險局基本原則"},{"start":31922.35,"end":31923.35,"text":"第二個"},{"start":31923.35,"end":31924.35,"text":"國保基本上沒錯"},{"start":31924.35,"end":31925.35,"text":"像鄭天才委員剛所說的是"},{"start":31925.35,"end":31926.35,"text":"以上皆非"},{"start":31926.35,"end":31928.35,"text":"就是你沒有任何的"},{"start":31928.35,"end":31929.35,"text":"non insurance"},{"start":31929.71,"end":31931.71,"text":"那可是國家還是要來"},{"start":31931.71,"end":31932.71,"text":"這裡面還是要來幫忙"},{"start":31932.71,"end":31934.71,"text":"那這裡面我跟各位報告"},{"start":31934.71,"end":31935.71,"text":"主要應該就三類人"},{"start":31935.71,"end":31937.71,"text":"第一個家庭主婦210萬"},{"start":31937.71,"end":31939.71,"text":"第二個無一定僱主115萬"},{"start":31939.71,"end":31941.71,"text":"第三個學生大概40萬"},{"start":31941.71,"end":31945.71,"text":"那這裡面就因為他們是沒有就業"},{"start":31945.71,"end":31948.71,"text":"那我也要提醒我也要注意"},{"start":31948.71,"end":31949.71,"text":"我們基本上我們的福利"},{"start":31949.71,"end":31952.71,"text":"我們的保險其實基本上是要保險"},{"start":31952.71,"end":31954.71,"text":"就你有發生事故的時候"},{"start":31954.71,"end":31958.71,"text":"國家用集合眾人之力來幫忙"},{"start":31958.71,"end":31959.71,"text":"所以這個基本上"},{"start":31959.71,"end":31961.71,"text":"國保跟其他的殖域保險"},{"start":31961.71,"end":31962.71,"text":"基本上還是有區別的"},{"start":31962.71,"end":31963.71,"text":"那所以在這個前提之下"},{"start":31963.71,"end":31965.71,"text":"所以剛剛我完全同意"},{"start":31965.71,"end":31966.71,"text":"那個鄭委員剛所說的"},{"start":31966.71,"end":31968.71,"text":"這一個整個美意"},{"start":31968.71,"end":31970.71,"text":"但是有關於這一個"},{"start":31972.08,"end":31973.08,"text":"剛剛所說的"},{"start":31973.08,"end":31976.08,"text":"就是國保就是有關於15個月"},{"start":31976.08,"end":31977.08,"text":"那其實基本上事實上是"},{"start":31977.08,"end":31979.08,"text":"國家為了要就是對於老農"},{"start":31979.08,"end":31981.08,"text":"還有對於台灣的農業政策"},{"start":31981.08,"end":31983.08,"text":"這邊的一個整個鼓勵"},{"start":31983.08,"end":31985.08,"text":"所以有一個相關的措施"},{"start":31985.08,"end":31988.08,"text":"所以基本上會到這一個15個月"},{"start":31988.08,"end":31989.08,"text":"基本上商量津貼會到15個月"},{"start":31989.08,"end":31991.08,"text":"這個基本上是有這樣的一個考量"},{"start":31991.08,"end":31993.08,"text":"那另外第二個國保這邊"},{"start":31993.08,"end":31995.08,"text":"我們現在目前是"},{"start":31995.08,"end":31996.08,"text":"所以有這個5個月"},{"start":31996.08,"end":31997.08,"text":"跟15個月之間的區別"},{"start":31997.08,"end":31998.08,"text":"另外第二個就是說"},{"start":31998.08,"end":32001.08,"text":"在國保這邊除了商量津貼之外"},{"start":32001.08,"end":32002.08,"text":"其實還有"},{"start":32003.77,"end":32004.77,"text":"還有已屬年金"},{"start":32004.77,"end":32006.77,"text":"而已屬年金事實上是"},{"start":32006.77,"end":32007.77,"text":"是農保那邊他所沒有的"},{"start":32008.83,"end":32009.83,"text":"所以這個我也要"},{"start":32009.83,"end":32011.83,"text":"也跟委員來做一個報告"},{"start":32011.83,"end":32013.83,"text":"所以我想這個"},{"start":32013.83,"end":32015.83,"text":"這一個金額多寡是另外一回事"},{"start":32015.83,"end":32017.83,"text":"但是就是說就整個世界各國"},{"start":32017.83,"end":32019.83,"text":"他的整個這個殖域保險"},{"start":32019.83,"end":32021.83,"text":"的一個原理跟原則"},{"start":32021.83,"end":32023.83,"text":"基本上事實上是有這樣的區別"},{"start":32023.83,"end":32024.83,"text":"以上來一個說明謝謝"},{"start":32024.83,"end":32027.83,"text":"那39請王運民委員"},{"start":32027.83,"end":32029.83,"text":"好這個上次在第一輪討論的時候"},{"start":32029.83,"end":32031.83,"text":"事實上我有提出來"},{"start":32031.83,"end":32033.83,"text":"我覺得國民年金"},{"start":32033.83,"end":32034.83,"text":"其實每一個我們的保險"},{"start":32034.83,"end":32035.83,"text":"都要看到他的"},{"start":32035.83,"end":32037.83,"text":"你要達到的目標是什麼"},{"start":32037.83,"end":32040.83,"text":"然後你設你的整個保險的設計"},{"start":32040.83,"end":32041.83,"text":"還有你整個的支付"},{"start":32041.83,"end":32042.83,"text":"是不是可以"},{"start":32042.83,"end":32045.83,"text":"那我如果比較客觀的"},{"start":32045.83,"end":32046.83,"text":"來看待這件事情的話"},{"start":32046.83,"end":32048.83,"text":"就是這一次的國民年金保險"},{"start":32048.83,"end":32049.83,"text":"我覺得最重要的是"},{"start":32049.83,"end":32052.83,"text":"一個是放寬就是說"},{"start":32052.83,"end":32055.83,"text":"他的可以給付的條件"},{"start":32055.83,"end":32056.83,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":32056.83,"end":32057.83,"text":"第二個就是說"},{"start":32057.83,"end":32059.83,"text":"他領的這個年金"},{"start":32059.83,"end":32063.83,"text":"足不足以保障他這個之後的生活"},{"start":32063.83,"end":32065.83,"text":"這就是個保險最重要的精神"},{"start":32065.83,"end":32067.83,"text":"所以這兩件事情"},{"start":32067.83,"end":32069.83,"text":"如果可以優先被滿足"},{"start":32069.83,"end":32071.83,"text":"我覺得應該是你們要"},{"start":32071.83,"end":32072.83,"text":"慎重去思考的"},{"start":32072.83,"end":32074.83,"text":"那至於其他委員提出來的"},{"start":32074.83,"end":32075.83,"text":"其他額外的"},{"start":32075.83,"end":32077.83,"text":"我覺得都尊重個別委員的看法"},{"start":32077.83,"end":32079.83,"text":"但是我覺得我們可能"},{"start":32079.83,"end":32081.83,"text":"要有所取捨跟優先順序"},{"start":32081.83,"end":32083.83,"text":"如果說就他的體質本身"},{"start":32083.83,"end":32085.83,"text":"沒有辦法滿足所有的"},{"start":32085.83,"end":32087.83,"text":"增加的各委員需要的"},{"start":32087.83,"end":32089.83,"text":"那我覺得大家應該要回到一個"},{"start":32089.83,"end":32091.83,"text":"我們國民保險裡面"},{"start":32091.83,"end":32094.83,"text":"我們最希望改變照顧"},{"start":32094.83,"end":32096.83,"text":"然後跟優先滿足的是什麼"},{"start":32096.83,"end":32097.83,"text":"那如果你問我"},{"start":32097.83,"end":32098.83,"text":"我個人覺得這一次"},{"start":32098.83,"end":32100.83,"text":"適度的去做一些放寬"},{"start":32100.83,"end":32102.83,"text":"還有就是我們剛剛講的"},{"start":32102.83,"end":32104.83,"text":"你們剛剛調百分之二十三"},{"start":32104.83,"end":32106.83,"text":"是不是已經足以足夠"},{"start":32106.83,"end":32108.83,"text":"就一個基本的生活手續"},{"start":32108.83,"end":32109.83,"text":"是不是足以足夠"},{"start":32109.83,"end":32110.83,"text":"在五千跟六千之間"},{"start":32110.83,"end":32113.83,"text":"我個人認為還可以有一些的討論"},{"start":32113.83,"end":32117.83,"text":"那這個應該是第一層優先滿足"},{"start":32117.83,"end":32118.83,"text":"那其他如果你的"},{"start":32118.83,"end":32120.83,"text":"譬如說你那個整個繳費的"},{"start":32120.83,"end":32122.83,"text":"繳費率就是"},{"start":32123.96,"end":32125.96,"text":"有長足的保障進步什麼"},{"start":32125.96,"end":32128.96,"text":"那其他委員希望可以再增加"},{"start":32128.96,"end":32129.96,"text":"大家都是利益良善"},{"start":32129.96,"end":32131.96,"text":"但是我覺得就是說"},{"start":32131.96,"end":32132.96,"text":"如果你的保費"},{"start":32132.96,"end":32134.96,"text":"你們現在保費繳費率多少"},{"start":32134.96,"end":32135.96,"text":"一直都很差"},{"start":32135.96,"end":32137.96,"text":"百分之三 百分之四十左右"},{"start":32137.96,"end":32139.96,"text":"對啊 所以他沒有辦法"},{"start":32139.96,"end":32140.96,"text":"跟其他的保險相比你"},{"start":32140.96,"end":32142.96,"text":"其他的保險幾乎是"},{"start":32142.96,"end":32143.96,"text":"百分之百的繳費率"},{"start":32143.96,"end":32144.96,"text":"但是在國保裡面"},{"start":32144.96,"end":32147.96,"text":"政府是負擔了六成"},{"start":32147.96,"end":32148.96,"text":"幾乎是六成"},{"start":32148.96,"end":32149.96,"text":"繳費率只有四成"},{"start":32149.96,"end":32150.96,"text":"是沒錯"},{"start":32150.96,"end":32151.96,"text":"對 這個就是他體質"},{"start":32151.96,"end":32153.96,"text":"因為他體質先天其實是不良"},{"start":32153.96,"end":32155.96,"text":"所以我覺得坦白講我們討論"},{"start":32155.96,"end":32157.96,"text":"就是大家可以基於一些事實"},{"start":32157.96,"end":32159.96,"text":"他實質的狀況"},{"start":32159.96,"end":32160.96,"text":"當然可以一直加"},{"start":32160.96,"end":32161.96,"text":"但是就是最終如果"},{"start":32163.48,"end":32165.48,"text":"如果你的保費 收費率是這樣"},{"start":32165.48,"end":32166.48,"text":"坦白講這個保險"},{"start":32166.48,"end":32168.48,"text":"他就不是自己自主的保險"},{"start":32168.48,"end":32170.48,"text":"他還是靠國家力量"},{"start":32171.8,"end":32172.8,"text":"花了很大的力氣"},{"start":32172.8,"end":32173.8,"text":"才讓他走到現在"},{"start":32173.8,"end":32174.8,"text":"如果要靠他自己自主"},{"start":32174.8,"end":32176.8,"text":"他找負債不知道到哪裡去了"},{"start":32176.8,"end":32178.8,"text":"其實坦白講是這樣"},{"start":32178.8,"end":32179.8,"text":"對啦"},{"start":32179.8,"end":32181.8,"text":"好 那這個是保留還是"},{"start":32183.07,"end":32184.07,"text":"保留上學生"},{"start":32184.81,"end":32185.81,"text":"好"},{"start":32188.27,"end":32189.27,"text":"我完全同意保留"},{"start":32189.27,"end":32190.27,"text":"但是我也簡單回應一下"},{"start":32190.27,"end":32191.27,"text":"那個玉米委員剛剛所說"},{"start":32191.27,"end":32192.27,"text":"完全同意"},{"start":32192.27,"end":32193.27,"text":"所以基本上這裡面是"},{"start":32193.27,"end":32194.27,"text":"基本上"},{"start":32194.27,"end":32195.27,"text":"剛剛委員剛剛所說的"},{"start":32195.27,"end":32196.27,"text":"事實上是有關於"},{"start":32196.27,"end":32198.27,"text":"整個給付的市足性"},{"start":32198.27,"end":32200.27,"text":"elegancy的問題"},{"start":32200.27,"end":32201.27,"text":"這裡面確實是可討論的"},{"start":32201.27,"end":32202.27,"text":"就是說五千或六千"},{"start":32202.27,"end":32203.27,"text":"到底能不能"},{"start":32203.27,"end":32204.27,"text":"這個事實上是一個標準"},{"start":32204.27,"end":32207.27,"text":"但是我也要跟各位報告就是說"},{"start":32207.27,"end":32208.27,"text":"因為他畢竟是社會保險"},{"start":32208.27,"end":32210.27,"text":"社會保險基本上還是"},{"start":32210.27,"end":32211.27,"text":"還是有一個整個"},{"start":32211.27,"end":32213.27,"text":"就是有一個整個繳費的問題"},{"start":32213.27,"end":32215.27,"text":"那我也跟各位報告"},{"start":32215.27,"end":32216.27,"text":"全世界各國的"},{"start":32216.27,"end":32218.27,"text":"這個國民年金"},{"start":32218.27,"end":32219.27,"text":"基本上財務上都是有問題"},{"start":32219.27,"end":32220.27,"text":"包括像"},{"start":32220.27,"end":32222.27,"text":"因為都弱勢嘛"},{"start":32222.27,"end":32224.27,"text":"就是說我剛剛講的那幾類"},{"start":32224.27,"end":32225.27,"text":"家庭主婦"},{"start":32225.27,"end":32226.27,"text":"無一定僱主"},{"start":32226.27,"end":32227.27,"text":"學生等等這些"},{"start":32227.27,"end":32231.27,"text":"但是這一點我們也要來檢討"},{"start":32231.27,"end":32232.27,"text":"相較於日本"},{"start":32232.27,"end":32236.27,"text":"日本的話大概他的國民年金繳費率是59"},{"start":32236.27,"end":32237.27,"text":"韓國的話是53"},{"start":32237.27,"end":32238.27,"text":"那台灣40"},{"start":32238.27,"end":32239.27,"text":"我們現在目前也在提供"},{"start":32239.27,"end":32241.27,"text":"也在透過各項的措施"},{"start":32241.27,"end":32242.27,"text":"希望能夠來提高"},{"start":32242.27,"end":32243.27,"text":"但是我完全同意"},{"start":32243.27,"end":32245.27,"text":"這個委員剛剛所說的就是說"},{"start":32245.27,"end":32247.27,"text":"世足性這個也確實是我們這次"},{"start":32247.27,"end":32248.27,"text":"應該要來檢討"},{"start":32248.27,"end":32249.27,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":32251.26,"end":32256.26,"text":"本日會議時間一屆審查及繼續審查行政院"},{"start":32256.26,"end":32258.26,"text":"含情審議國民年金法"},{"start":32258.26,"end":32260.26,"text":"部分條文修正草案等73案"},{"start":32260.26,"end":32262.26,"text":"三位審查完畢"},{"start":32262.26,"end":32264.26,"text":"另擇期繼續審查"},{"start":32264.26,"end":32265.26,"text":"本次會議到此結束"},{"start":32265.26,"end":32266.26,"text":"現在上會"},{"start":32272.73,"end":32273.73,"text":"有問題是"},{"start":32274.9,"end":32276.9,"text":"謝謝你"},{"start":32279.36,"end":32280.36,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}