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Kacaw等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）\t本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）\t本院委員徐欣瑩等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「能源管理法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等23人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）\t本院委員陳亭妃等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）\t本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n（第十三案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查。））","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:36:03 - 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基金来源用途及余数"},{"start":1756.45,"end":1757.21,"text":"基金来源"},{"start":1757.21,"end":1760.85,"text":"60亿1627万5千元照列"},{"start":1760.85,"end":1761.49,"text":"基金用途"},{"start":1761.49,"end":1764.69,"text":"97亿3308万1千元照列"},{"start":1764.69,"end":1765.65,"text":"本级短促"},{"start":1765.65,"end":1768.49,"text":"37亿1680万6千元照列"},{"start":1768.49,"end":1769.49,"text":"结架公布列数"},{"start":1770.05,"end":1771.93,"text":"是通过决议13项"},{"start":1773.19,"end":1775.1100000000001,"text":"115年度中央政府总议宣案"},{"start":1775.1100000000001,"end":1776.3500000000001,"text":"本会负责审查之"},{"start":1776.3500000000001,"end":1778.3100000000002,"text":"互主当务预算营业及非营业部分"},{"start":1778.3100000000002,"end":1780.63,"text":"基于审查完进女继审查报告"},{"start":1780.63,"end":1782.5100000000002,"text":"提报财政委员会会诊"},{"start":1782.5100000000002,"end":1783.71,"text":"本会审查结果"},{"start":1783.71,"end":1785.0300000000002,"text":"需叫党团协商"},{"start":1785.0300000000002,"end":1786.3500000000001,"text":"本院会讨论时"},{"start":1786.3500000000001,"end":1787.15,"text":"门会部主管"},{"start":1787.15,"end":1788.5100000000002,"text":"国家发展委员会主管"},{"start":1788.5100000000002,"end":1790.0700000000002,"text":"非营业预算及"},{"start":1790.0700000000002,"end":1791.63,"text":"台湾中文股份隐性公司"},{"start":1791.63,"end":1793.8700000000001,"text":"台湾自来水股份隐性公司部分"},{"start":1793.8700000000001,"end":1796.19,"text":"由邱吉文自委出席说明"},{"start":1796.19,"end":1796.99,"text":"经济部主管"},{"start":1796.99,"end":1798.0700000000002,"text":"公民交易委员会主管"},{"start":1798.0700000000002,"end":1799.5500000000002,"text":"非营业预算部分"},{"start":1799.59,"end":1801.07,"text":"及台湾电力股份隐性公司"},{"start":1801.07,"end":1802.95,"text":"台湾糖业股份隐性公司"},{"start":1802.95,"end":1805.11,"text":"由洪钊文亦祥出席说明"},{"start":1805.11,"end":1805.95,"text":"主席宣告"},{"start":1805.95,"end":1807.07,"text":"本次会议通过之决议"},{"start":1807.07,"end":1808.27,"text":"文字授权主席及"},{"start":1808.27,"end":1810.35,"text":"14年整理上会宣布完毕"},{"start":1810.35,"end":1810.95,"text":"好 谢谢"},{"start":1812.02,"end":1813.46,"text":"在场没有委员"},{"start":1813.46,"end":1814.6200000000001,"text":"我们依次度在幕处"},{"start":1814.6200000000001,"end":1815.38,"text":"在幕处理"},{"start":1815.38,"end":1816.8600000000001,"text":"好 我们继续进行讨论事项"},{"start":1816.8600000000001,"end":1817.8200000000002,"text":"请一边宣吐"},{"start":1817.8200000000002,"end":1819.42,"text":"讨论事项 依继续审查"},{"start":1820.08,"end":1822.04,"text":"本院委员赖月杨等17人"},{"start":1822.04,"end":1823.32,"text":"委员蔡其昌等19人"},{"start":1823.32,"end":1824.56,"text":"委员钟家斌等20人"},{"start":1824.56,"end":1825.96,"text":"分别拟具能源管理法"},{"start":1825.96,"end":1827.8,"text":"部分调研修正查案等3案"},{"start":1827.8,"end":1829.56,"text":"本院委员杨强英等21人"},{"start":1829.56,"end":1830.6,"text":"拟具能源管理法"},{"start":1830.6,"end":1832.24,"text":"第7条调研修正查案"},{"start":1832.24,"end":1833.96,"text":"本院委员邱立仪等17人"},{"start":1833.96,"end":1835.1999999999998,"text":"拟具能源管理法"},{"start":1835.1999999999998,"end":1837,"text":"增定第19条之2及"},{"start":1837,"end":1839.28,"text":"第27条之1调研修正查案"},{"start":1839.28,"end":1839.96,"text":"2 审查"},{"start":1840.52,"end":1842.48,"text":"6 行政刊写审议能源管理法"},{"start":1842.48,"end":1844.08,"text":"部分调研修正查案"},{"start":1844.08,"end":1846.8799999999999,"text":"7 本院委员郑天才等17人"},{"start":1846.8799999999999,"end":1848.24,"text":"委员徐欣颖等16人"},{"start":1848.24,"end":1849.72,"text":"委员杨秋英等23人"},{"start":1849.72,"end":1851.04,"text":"委员陈婷菲等20人"},{"start":1851.04,"end":1852.68,"text":"委员邱志文等16人"},{"start":1852.68,"end":1853.92,"text":"分别拟具能源管理法"},{"start":1853.92,"end":1855.72,"text":"部分调研修正查案等5案"},{"start":1855.72,"end":1857.48,"text":"把本院委员郭国文等16人"},{"start":1857.48,"end":1858.6399999999999,"text":"拟具能源管理法"},{"start":1858.6399999999999,"end":1860.28,"text":"增定第19条之2及"},{"start":1860.28,"end":1862.4,"text":"第27条之1调研修正查案"},{"start":1862.4,"end":1864.16,"text":"9 本院委员郑天才等16人"},{"start":1864.16,"end":1865.36,"text":"拟具能源管理法"},{"start":1865.36,"end":1866.76,"text":"第2条调研修正查案"},{"start":1866.76,"end":1867.32,"text":"宣言毕"},{"start":1870.08,"end":1870.6399999999999,"text":"好"},{"start":1871.64,"end":1872.3200000000002,"text":"这个"},{"start":1872.85,"end":1876.2099999999998,"text":"本期所排列议程是"},{"start":1876.76,"end":1879.1200000000001,"text":"所列的讨论事项为"},{"start":1879.1200000000001,"end":1881.6000000000001,"text":"能源管理法部分调研修正查案"},{"start":1881.6000000000001,"end":1882.92,"text":"一共有13案"},{"start":1882.92,"end":1885,"text":"本日只有进行巡达"},{"start":1885.6899999999998,"end":1887.49,"text":"不做调温的处理"},{"start":1887.49,"end":1887.81,"text":"好"},{"start":1887.81,"end":1890.61,"text":"我们现在先请经济部"},{"start":1890.61,"end":1892.1299999999999,"text":"共鸣星港府长"},{"start":1892.1299999999999,"end":1894.01,"text":"就委员提案跟行政版本"},{"start":1894.01,"end":1894.8899999999999,"text":"做合并报告"},{"start":1894.8899999999999,"end":1895.49,"text":"请港府长"},{"start":1905.29,"end":1906.65,"text":"今天很感谢"},{"start":1906.65,"end":1908.81,"text":"会委员会邀请相关单位"},{"start":1910.95,"end":1912.99,"text":"本部共同来探讨"},{"start":1912.99,"end":1915.99,"text":"能源管理法修正查案的相关提案"},{"start":1915.99,"end":1917.67,"text":"本人非常荣幸有这个机会"},{"start":1917.67,"end":1920.23,"text":"向会委员会的委员提出报告"},{"start":1920.23,"end":1922.47,"text":"敬请各位委员不吝指教"},{"start":1923.28,"end":1925.68,"text":"有关于能源管理法"},{"start":1925.68,"end":1928.04,"text":"是规范我国能源需求面"},{"start":1928.04,"end":1931.04,"text":"绝对能源跟能源效率管理的主要法律"},{"start":1931.59,"end":1934.35,"text":"那本次行政院跟各位委员"},{"start":1934.35,"end":1936.35,"text":"拟具的能源管理法"},{"start":1936.35,"end":1939.27,"text":"修正的查案总计有13案"},{"start":1939.27,"end":1941.55,"text":"那有关于本次的"},{"start":1941.55,"end":1943.51,"text":"行政院审议通过的版本"},{"start":1943.51,"end":1944.55,"text":"修法的重点"},{"start":1944.55,"end":1947.1499999999999,"text":"大致可归纳为五个方向"},{"start":1948,"end":1950.72,"text":"第一个是将再生能源还有热能"},{"start":1950.72,"end":1953.08,"text":"纳入的能源范围"},{"start":1953.08,"end":1955.48,"text":"以因应新兴的能源管理的需要"},{"start":1956.33,"end":1959.85,"text":"第二个是公开能源销售统计资料"},{"start":1960.4,"end":1962.48,"text":"以去识别化的方式"},{"start":1962.48,"end":1966.16,"text":"公开行业别、区域别、用电等等的资讯"},{"start":1966.16,"end":1968.96,"text":"将有助于规划因地制宜的节能措施"},{"start":1969.6,"end":1971.8,"text":"第三是增定能源大户"},{"start":1971.8,"end":1974.6,"text":"因设置、自用发电跟储能设备"},{"start":1974.6,"end":1978.72,"text":"有助于强化企业界它能源自己的能力"},{"start":1979.32,"end":1983.24,"text":"第四个是强化地方政府节能的稽查能量"},{"start":1983.24,"end":1986.08,"text":"落实地方节能措施的执行角色"},{"start":1986.08,"end":1988.76,"text":"第五是加重违法的罚折"},{"start":1988.76,"end":1991.6399999999999,"text":"以提高这个罚款金额的上限"},{"start":1991.6399999999999,"end":1994.9199999999998,"text":"公布违法业者的名称跟事由等等"},{"start":1994.9199999999998,"end":1996.84,"text":"来促使业者重视节能"},{"start":1998,"end":2002.88,"text":"另外有关于大院所拟据的修正案"},{"start":2002.88,"end":2005.04,"text":"考量到数量比较多"},{"start":2005.04,"end":2006.8,"text":"针对各位委员提案"},{"start":2006.8,"end":2010.52,"text":"本部已经按照这个次序提出了书面报告"},{"start":2010.52,"end":2014.88,"text":"以下我就综合进行口头说明"},{"start":2014.88,"end":2017.2,"text":"首先事实上多数的提案"},{"start":2017.2,"end":2019.36,"text":"委员多数提案的内容"},{"start":2019.36,"end":2023.12,"text":"跟行政院审议的版本大致上是差不多的"},{"start":2023.12,"end":2027.76,"text":"包括了第二条、第六条、六至一条"},{"start":2027.76,"end":2031.32,"text":"第七条、第九条、第十条、十八条"},{"start":2031.32,"end":2033.56,"text":"等等相关的条例的修正"},{"start":2033.56,"end":2035.48,"text":"大致方向是一样的"},{"start":2035.48,"end":2037.92,"text":"但是除此之外"},{"start":2037.92,"end":2040.4,"text":"也有委员针对特定的议题"},{"start":2040.4,"end":2041.8799999999999,"text":"有另外的提案"},{"start":2041.8799999999999,"end":2044.64,"text":"大概有五个案子以下做说明"},{"start":2044.64,"end":2047.68,"text":"第一个是针对针对3C1条的部分"},{"start":2047.68,"end":2050.52,"text":"就中央主管机关应协助公务机关"},{"start":2050.52,"end":2053.12,"text":"还有公有机关、公有事业机关"},{"start":2053.16,"end":2058,"text":"订定节约的这个目标跟实行的计划"},{"start":2058,"end":2059.56,"text":"那考量到基本上这个"},{"start":2059.56,"end":2062.4,"text":"现行的架构跟管理的机制已经有了"},{"start":2062.4,"end":2064.8399999999997,"text":"所以我们是不是就建议回归到"},{"start":2064.8399999999997,"end":2066.56,"text":"现行的相关法制来办理"},{"start":2067.6,"end":2071.4,"text":"第二点是针对第五条"},{"start":2071.4,"end":2074.52,"text":"增定能源研究的基金的用途"},{"start":2074.52,"end":2077.88,"text":"用来补助跟奖励推广的能源"},{"start":2077.88,"end":2081.6,"text":"提高能源使用效率的设备跟机具"},{"start":2081.6,"end":2083.48,"text":"那考量到这样的目的"},{"start":2083.48,"end":2087.08,"text":"已经涵盖在第二条的第二项第二款"},{"start":2087.08,"end":2091.04,"text":"那大致上的这个制印也在进行当中"},{"start":2091.04,"end":2093.12,"text":"是不是也建议维持现行的条文"},{"start":2094.12,"end":2096.3199999999997,"text":"那第三点是针对第七条"},{"start":2096.3199999999997,"end":2098.04,"text":"增定能源供应事业"},{"start":2098.04,"end":2103.36,"text":"因设置能源除能设备以及设置节能设备"},{"start":2103.36,"end":2106.48,"text":"那考量到现在的这个电业法"},{"start":2106.48,"end":2108.92,"text":"已经有类似的相关的规范"},{"start":2108.92,"end":2110.84,"text":"是不是我们建议就是维持"},{"start":2110.84,"end":2113.48,"text":"行政院审议过的这些版本"},{"start":2113.48,"end":2116.84,"text":"那第四点就是针对于第七条之一"},{"start":2116.84,"end":2118.2,"text":"还有第十条之一"},{"start":2118.2,"end":2120.52,"text":"救火力发电还有气电工声设备"},{"start":2120.52,"end":2123.64,"text":"因申报机组还有排放的资料"},{"start":2123.68,"end":2125.2,"text":"那考量到现在"},{"start":2125.2,"end":2126.72,"text":"电业法的第六十六条"},{"start":2126.72,"end":2129.3599999999997,"text":"还有能源管理法的第七条"},{"start":2129.3599999999997,"end":2130.68,"text":"第十二条"},{"start":2130.68,"end":2132.8799999999997,"text":"已经分别有相关的规范"},{"start":2132.8799999999997,"end":2135.4,"text":"申报的一些规定"},{"start":2135.4,"end":2138.3199999999997,"text":"是不是就建议维持现行的"},{"start":2138.3199999999997,"end":2140.04,"text":"这个申报的相关的资料"},{"start":2140.73,"end":2142.21,"text":"那第五点是针对"},{"start":2142.21,"end":2144.05,"text":"增定第十九条之二"},{"start":2144.05,"end":2145.61,"text":"还有它的法则"},{"start":2145.61,"end":2147.01,"text":"不得故意散播"},{"start":2147.01,"end":2148.41,"text":"影响国家能源供应"},{"start":2148.41,"end":2151.45,"text":"还有能源这个基础设置"},{"start":2151.45,"end":2153.25,"text":"不实谣言跟假讯息"},{"start":2153.25,"end":2156.41,"text":"那这个部分我们尊重开放讨论"},{"start":2156.41,"end":2157.4900000000002,"text":"那整体而言"},{"start":2157.4900000000002,"end":2159.85,"text":"本次的修法将有助于"},{"start":2159.85,"end":2161.45,"text":"能源管理的这个透明度"},{"start":2161.45,"end":2162.77,"text":"还有执行效率"},{"start":2162.77,"end":2164.97,"text":"也能够强化企业"},{"start":2164.97,"end":2166.17,"text":"对于节能的意识"},{"start":2166.17,"end":2167.37,"text":"还有用电的责任"},{"start":2168.07,"end":2171.15,"text":"促使节能能够逐步的落实为"},{"start":2171.15,"end":2173.15,"text":"企业日常管理的一部分"},{"start":2173.15,"end":2175.9500000000003,"text":"那后事将持续掺拙各界的意见"},{"start":2175.9500000000003,"end":2177.63,"text":"并考整体的考量"},{"start":2177.63,"end":2179.7900000000004,"text":"电源盘还有再生产发展条例"},{"start":2179.7900000000004,"end":2182.4300000000003,"text":"等等相关法规规的一致性"},{"start":2182.4300000000003,"end":2185.8700000000003,"text":"建议以行政院审议通过的版本为基础"},{"start":2185.8700000000003,"end":2189.67,"text":"那么跟各位委员来一并审查讨论"},{"start":2190.42,"end":2192.02,"text":"以上报告,敬请指教"},{"start":2196.09,"end":2198.57,"text":"谢谢国务长详细的报告"},{"start":2199.91,"end":2203.95,"text":"这个今日议程讨论是向我们合并的询答"},{"start":2203.95,"end":2205.19,"text":"委员咨询之前"},{"start":2205.19,"end":2207.87,"text":"主席做以下宣告"},{"start":2207.87,"end":2210.23,"text":"每位委员发言时间本会委员六分钟"},{"start":2210.23,"end":2212.0299999999997,"text":"必要时延长一分钟"},{"start":2212.62,"end":2214.54,"text":"非法委员会委员四分钟"},{"start":2214.54,"end":2215.54,"text":"上午十点"},{"start":2216.32,"end":2218.0400000000004,"text":"十点截止发言登记"},{"start":2218.0400000000004,"end":2219.1200000000003,"text":"首先请登记第一位"},{"start":2219.1200000000003,"end":2220.6800000000003,"text":"请邱毅文发言"},{"start":2228.54,"end":2231.74,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":2232.34,"end":2234.34,"text":"我想凑人就让你过"},{"start":2238.09,"end":2239.8900000000003,"text":"谢谢主席 我请一下港部长"},{"start":2239.8900000000003,"end":2240.8900000000003,"text":"请金金部港部长"},{"start":2247.79,"end":2248.39,"text":"部长早"},{"start":2248.39,"end":2249.7099999999996,"text":"部长我想请教"},{"start":2249.7099999999996,"end":2252.95,"text":"我们今天在讨论这个能源管理法的修正草案"},{"start":2252.95,"end":2253.35,"text":"是"},{"start":2255.2799999999997,"end":2256.9599999999996,"text":"先来看第十条"},{"start":2257.3199999999997,"end":2259.9199999999996,"text":"刚刚您的报告里头也很清楚的谈到"},{"start":2259.9199999999996,"end":2262.12,"text":"我们在第十条的修正内容是"},{"start":2262.12,"end":2268.8799999999997,"text":"希望这些用电大户能够自行设置所谓的发电跟除能设备"},{"start":2268.8799999999997,"end":2269.64,"text":"对不对"},{"start":2269.64,"end":2270,"text":"是的"},{"start":2270,"end":2270.4799999999996,"text":"好"},{"start":2270.4799999999996,"end":2271.3999999999996,"text":"请教第一个问题"},{"start":2271.3999999999996,"end":2273.8799999999997,"text":"您所谓的用电大户是用电大概多少"},{"start":2273.8799999999997,"end":2275.16,"text":"算是用电大户"},{"start":2275.7,"end":2278.62,"text":"依照我们的再生能源管理条例是5000千瓦"},{"start":2278.62,"end":2279.8199999999997,"text":"算是用电大户"},{"start":2279.8199999999997,"end":2280.42,"text":"对不对"},{"start":2280.42,"end":2281.58,"text":"这个标准有没有改变"},{"start":2283.0299999999997,"end":2285.99,"text":"我们是希望在执法里面来做一些讨论"},{"start":2285.99,"end":2288.5099999999998,"text":"那会跟相关业者做一些讨论"},{"start":2288.5099999999998,"end":2291.59,"text":"所以你的用电大户的定义还没有定出来"},{"start":2291.59,"end":2293.31,"text":"多少叫做用电大户"},{"start":2293.31,"end":2294.87,"text":"这个要在执法里面做讨论"},{"start":2294.87,"end":2297.75,"text":"但是你母法里面就直接写用电大户"},{"start":2297.75,"end":2300.71,"text":"到时候我不知道什么叫用电大户"},{"start":2300.71,"end":2303.31,"text":"我要怎么跟你继续讨论下去"},{"start":2303.31,"end":2304.39,"text":"事实上大致上"},{"start":2304.39,"end":2306.0299999999997,"text":"刚刚委员提到的这个"},{"start":2306.0299999999997,"end":2308.99,"text":"你如果是依照再生能源条例的5000千瓦"},{"start":2308.99,"end":2310.31,"text":"算是用电大户"},{"start":2310.31,"end":2311.83,"text":"未来的标准会改变吗"},{"start":2313.34,"end":2315.98,"text":"执法会大致上这个方向"},{"start":2315.98,"end":2318.9,"text":"那我们还会跟利害关系人做一些讨论"},{"start":2318.9,"end":2320.54,"text":"不过委员刚刚提的那个"},{"start":2320.54,"end":2322.1400000000003,"text":"是我们大概一个基础"},{"start":2322.1400000000003,"end":2322.7400000000002,"text":"好"},{"start":2322.7400000000002,"end":2323.38,"text":"会以那个基础"},{"start":2323.38,"end":2325.1400000000003,"text":"那第二个问题想请教"},{"start":2325.1400000000003,"end":2330.34,"text":"如果你这样子界定所谓的用电大户的定义之后"},{"start":2331.3,"end":2334.46,"text":"我们的这个条文内容写得非常清楚"},{"start":2334.46,"end":2339.54,"text":"要它设置自用的发电跟除能设备"},{"start":2340.36,"end":2342.1600000000003,"text":"那我进一步请教"},{"start":2342.1600000000003,"end":2343.36,"text":"这些用电大户"},{"start":2343.36,"end":2345.6,"text":"我想未来不可能只有工厂"},{"start":2346.13,"end":2349.09,"text":"有可能是这些大型的商贩"},{"start":2350.06,"end":2352.94,"text":"或者是大型的商场等等"},{"start":2353.7999999999997,"end":2356.08,"text":"或者是一些企业的总部"},{"start":2356.08,"end":2358.48,"text":"或者是资料中心"},{"start":2359.16,"end":2363.44,"text":"未来的这一些AI大数据的这一些资料中心"},{"start":2363.44,"end":2368.12,"text":"它可能都会设立在所谓的都会区里头"},{"start":2368.12,"end":2369.24,"text":"那我进一步请教"},{"start":2369.24,"end":2370.64,"text":"在这些都会区里面"},{"start":2370.64,"end":2371.96,"text":"这些建筑"},{"start":2371.96,"end":2372.7599999999998,"text":"它非常有可能"},{"start":2372.7599999999998,"end":2377.48,"text":"它缺乏所谓的大面积可以让你做除能的设备"},{"start":2377.48,"end":2381.12,"text":"或者是大面积可以让你做所谓的太阳能光电"},{"start":2381.12,"end":2381.48,"text":"那它"},{"start":2382.41,"end":2383.5699999999997,"text":"如何来"},{"start":2384.7799999999997,"end":2387.2599999999998,"text":"符合您的条文里头规定"},{"start":2387.2599999999998,"end":2390.4199999999996,"text":"自用发电跟除能设备"},{"start":2390.4199999999996,"end":2393.4599999999996,"text":"如果它没有足够的空间可以来设立的话"},{"start":2393.4599999999996,"end":2394.4599999999996,"text":"那这些人"},{"start":2394.4599999999996,"end":2395.74,"text":"他不是不设哦"},{"start":2395.74,"end":2397.62,"text":"是他根本没有附地可以设"},{"start":2398.1,"end":2398.8199999999997,"text":"那请教"},{"start":2399.69,"end":2402.89,"text":"我们马上就讲说你没有设的话就罚钱"},{"start":2403.55,"end":2405.3500000000004,"text":"那请问我们要怎么样协助他们"},{"start":2405.97,"end":2408.2099999999996,"text":"那八位这个就是我刚刚提到的"},{"start":2408.2099999999996,"end":2411.97,"text":"就是说为什么我们要跟相关的利害关系人"},{"start":2411.97,"end":2413.0899999999997,"text":"做一个具体的讨论"},{"start":2413.0899999999997,"end":2415.81,"text":"要实际上可行才可以"},{"start":2415.81,"end":2417.2099999999996,"text":"相关的利害关系人是谁"},{"start":2417.2099999999996,"end":2418.0099999999998,"text":"比如说"},{"start":2418.0099999999998,"end":2420.1299999999997,"text":"刚刚您他提到了这个用电档"},{"start":2420.1299999999997,"end":2421.85,"text":"我讲的这些商办"},{"start":2421.85,"end":2422.6499999999996,"text":"商场"},{"start":2422.6499999999996,"end":2424.0099999999998,"text":"或者是AI资料中心"},{"start":2424.0099999999998,"end":2424.89,"text":"对对对"},{"start":2425.48,"end":2426.68,"text":"最近有一个"},{"start":2426.68,"end":2428.36,"text":"有一个"},{"start":2428.36,"end":2429.28,"text":"这个"},{"start":2429.28,"end":2431.44,"text":"业者来找我讨论"},{"start":2431.44,"end":2433.92,"text":"他们想要在这些商办"},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谢谢邱英伟"},{"start":2754.18,"end":2755.18,"text":"部长 辛苦做"},{"start":2756.22,"end":2759.3399999999997,"text":"我们先来确定这个上市会议事务"},{"start":2759.3399999999997,"end":2761.2599999999998,"text":"请问在场委员"},{"start":2761.2599999999998,"end":2762.74,"text":"上市会议事务有收"},{"start":2763.8,"end":2766.36,"text":"没有错 我们就确定议事务"},{"start":2766.95,"end":2768.1499999999996,"text":"好 我们继续质询"},{"start":2768.1499999999996,"end":2769.67,"text":"下位置请陈廷辉委员"},{"start":2775.67,"end":2776.83,"text":"谢谢主席"},{"start":2776.83,"end":2778.39,"text":"我们请经济部长"},{"start":2778.39,"end":2779.47,"text":"请经济部总部长"},{"start":2785.19,"end":2786.19,"text":"邱委员 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所以"},{"start":3272.4700000000003,"end":3273.67,"text":"部长再拜托"},{"start":3273.67,"end":3274.39,"text":"谢谢"},{"start":3274.39,"end":3276.11,"text":"我刚刚提到的可能"},{"start":3276.11,"end":3277.11,"text":"那个"},{"start":3277.15,"end":3278.35,"text":"主席站起来了"},{"start":3278.35,"end":3280.51,"text":"我再拜托我们的署长"},{"start":3280.51,"end":3281.75,"text":"我刚刚问的"},{"start":3281.75,"end":3283.9100000000003,"text":"你再拜托一个书面给我们"},{"start":3283.9100000000003,"end":3284.9500000000003,"text":"好的"},{"start":3284.9500000000003,"end":3285.9100000000003,"text":"书面给我们"},{"start":3285.9100000000003,"end":3287.9500000000003,"text":"让我们很清楚知道"},{"start":3287.9500000000003,"end":3289.75,"text":"起码地方"},{"start":3289.75,"end":3291.9500000000003,"text":"这些工业或是企业"},{"start":3291.9500000000003,"end":3293.63,"text":"在问我们的时候"},{"start":3293.63,"end":3295.8700000000003,"text":"我们知道怎么回答"},{"start":3295.8700000000003,"end":3297.27,"text":"怎么来协助他们"},{"start":3297.27,"end":3299.9100000000003,"text":"至少样态来讲有新旧"},{"start":3299.9100000000003,"end":3301.07,"text":"还有都市"},{"start":3301.07,"end":3301.9100000000003,"text":"还有这个"},{"start":3301.9100000000003,"end":3303.4300000000003,"text":"传统"},{"start":3303.4300000000003,"end":3304.19,"text":"有不一样"},{"start":3304.19,"end":3305.75,"text":"那我们不同的样态"},{"start":3305.79,"end":3307.79,"text":"可能要求会有一点点差异"},{"start":3307.79,"end":3309.39,"text":"对 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请"},{"start":3339.29,"end":3340.17,"text":"政政前委员"},{"start":3349.02,"end":3349.58,"text":"谢谢主席"},{"start":3349.58,"end":3351.58,"text":"我想请一下经济部公民新公部长"},{"start":3351.58,"end":3352.7799999999997,"text":"请经济部公部长"},{"start":3358.75,"end":3359.67,"text":"政委员好"},{"start":3359.67,"end":3360.83,"text":"部长好"},{"start":3360.83,"end":3364.63,"text":"因为今天安排了能源管理法的一个审查"},{"start":3364.63,"end":3367.35,"text":"那因为院板的能源管理法的第十条"},{"start":3367.35,"end":3368.19,"text":"很特殊"},{"start":3368.19,"end":3369.87,"text":"因为它特别提到说"},{"start":3369.87,"end":3371.4700000000003,"text":"契约容量达一定容量者"},{"start":3371.4700000000003,"end":3373.59,"text":"因于一定期限内设置一定"},{"start":3373.59,"end":3377.23,"text":"装置容量以上的自用发电设备跟储能设备"},{"start":3377.23,"end":3378.11,"text":"那它这里面"},{"start":3378.11,"end":3379.63,"text":"其实很多委员也都特别提到"},{"start":3379.63,"end":3381.27,"text":"因为它这一条当中的时候"},{"start":3381.27,"end":3383.75,"text":"讲到一定的契约容量"},{"start":3383.75,"end":3385.9500000000003,"text":"一定的装置容量"},{"start":3385.9500000000003,"end":3387.23,"text":"然后一定的旗舰"},{"start":3387.27,"end":3389.03,"text":"全部都用一定的状态"},{"start":3389.03,"end":3391.55,"text":"感觉很多的空白授权"},{"start":3391.55,"end":3393.27,"text":"那我在这边的时候"},{"start":3393.27,"end":3394.55,"text":"就特别把那个"},{"start":3394.55,"end":3397.83,"text":"我们之前有个类似相关的一个再生能源法"},{"start":3397.83,"end":3398.11,"text":"里面"},{"start":3398.11,"end":3400.23,"text":"它职法里面有特别提到"},{"start":3400.23,"end":3403.91,"text":"一定契约容量以上的电力用户"},{"start":3403.91,"end":3408.59,"text":"因设置再生能源发电设备管理办法"},{"start":3408.59,"end":3409.79,"text":"在管理办法当中"},{"start":3409.79,"end":3411.43,"text":"是我很具体的要求到"},{"start":3411.43,"end":3415.87,"text":"契约容量在五千千瓦以上的用电大户"},{"start":3415.91,"end":3417.5899999999997,"text":"必须要有契约容量"},{"start":3417.5899999999997,"end":3421.23,"text":"百分之十的再生能源和储能"},{"start":3421.23,"end":3421.99,"text":"那我在想说"},{"start":3421.99,"end":3424.87,"text":"因为之前我特别提到说"},{"start":3424.87,"end":3427.99,"text":"因为那个我们院版能源管理法当中的"},{"start":3427.99,"end":3429.23,"text":"空白授权颇多"},{"start":3429.23,"end":3430.71,"text":"那我们就用再生能源法"},{"start":3430.71,"end":3432.75,"text":"这边的一个相关的一个办法"},{"start":3432.75,"end":3435.27,"text":"去当作一个类推的一个情况"},{"start":3435.27,"end":3438.35,"text":"就是五千千瓦这个标准"},{"start":3438.35,"end":3441.79,"text":"还有百分之十的那个"},{"start":3441.83,"end":3446.47,"text":"契约容量的再生能源跟储能这个部分"},{"start":3446.47,"end":3448.67,"text":"会不会变成我们能源管理法"},{"start":3448.67,"end":3450.71,"text":"后续职法当中的一个标准"},{"start":3452.21,"end":3454.05,"text":"这个是我们参考"},{"start":3454.05,"end":3454.65,"text":"参考"},{"start":3454.65,"end":3455.9700000000003,"text":"参考基准"},{"start":3456.56,"end":3458.56,"text":"那但是我们还是要跟厉害关系的人"},{"start":3458.56,"end":3459.8,"text":"再做一些讨论"},{"start":3459.8,"end":3463.44,"text":"原则上是这个五千千瓦就是五M"},{"start":3463.44,"end":3466.16,"text":"是大致上有这样有一些横平的标准"},{"start":3466.16,"end":3468.28,"text":"你刚才特意提到五M以上"},{"start":3468.28,"end":3471.08,"text":"五M以上用电大户大概有七百多家"},{"start":3471.08,"end":3472.04,"text":"那我在想说"},{"start":3472.04,"end":3474.8,"text":"我们现在用电其实坦白说也挺吃紧的"},{"start":3474.8,"end":3477,"text":"所以我们对于这个能源管理法当中"},{"start":3477,"end":3478.8,"text":"契约容量会不会下修"},{"start":3478.8,"end":3482.6,"text":"自用发电的比例跟储电的比例会不会提高"},{"start":3483.47,"end":3485.59,"text":"包委员可能要有阶段性的"},{"start":3485.59,"end":3487.27,"text":"就是我们的要求他"},{"start":3487.27,"end":3490.55,"text":"可能在早期的时候就是阶段性"},{"start":3490.55,"end":3491.91,"text":"可能刚开始没有那么高"},{"start":3491.91,"end":3493.83,"text":"但是慢慢的可能会提高"},{"start":3493.83,"end":3494.75,"text":"所以为什么要设在"},{"start":3494.75,"end":3496.39,"text":"可能也会超过这个标准"},{"start":3496.39,"end":3498.91,"text":"而且在五M以下也可能会被要求"},{"start":3498.91,"end":3500.07,"text":"意思是这样子吗"},{"start":3500.07,"end":3500.59,"text":"不是"},{"start":3500.59,"end":3503.19,"text":"如果五M是一个标准"},{"start":3503.19,"end":3506.67,"text":"就是五M以上的这些用电大户七百多家"},{"start":3506.67,"end":3511.39,"text":"但是我们希望他达到储能跟自习发电的这个比例"},{"start":3511.43,"end":3513.35,"text":"到底是有多少"},{"start":3513.35,"end":3514.99,"text":"那可能是刚开始的时候"},{"start":3514.99,"end":3516.67,"text":"可能这个比例是比较低一点"},{"start":3516.67,"end":3518.6299999999997,"text":"那后续慢慢的给他一个过渡期"},{"start":3518.6299999999997,"end":3519.5499999999997,"text":"慢慢增加"},{"start":3519.5499999999997,"end":3522.47,"text":"因为我觉得电商问题这确实非常的重要"},{"start":3522.47,"end":3523.1099999999997,"text":"那我只是想说"},{"start":3523.1099999999997,"end":3525.47,"text":"因为不同的产业他会有差异"},{"start":3525.47,"end":3527.35,"text":"我们对于有一些特定的产业"},{"start":3527.35,"end":3529.27,"text":"会不会有一些豁免条款"},{"start":3529.27,"end":3530.5099999999998,"text":"比方说医院"},{"start":3530.5099999999998,"end":3532.5099999999998,"text":"或者是有一些其他的用电大户"},{"start":3533.2,"end":3535.72,"text":"这个我们就在执法里面"},{"start":3535.72,"end":3537.12,"text":"会有一些考量"},{"start":3537.12,"end":3538.4399999999996,"text":"就是说刚刚提到"},{"start":3538.4399999999996,"end":3540.4399999999996,"text":"因为很多的样态也不一样"},{"start":3540.4399999999996,"end":3540.8399999999997,"text":"理解"},{"start":3540.8399999999997,"end":3542.3199999999997,"text":"新的工业区跟旧的工业区"},{"start":3542.3199999999997,"end":3543.96,"text":"新色工业区跟旧的"},{"sta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"因为大潭电厂跟协和电厂这边"},{"start":3731.87,"end":3733.87,"text":"大潭电厂是用天然气发电"},{"start":3733.87,"end":3736.0699999999997,"text":"协和电厂这边的时候是用油"},{"start":3736.0699999999997,"end":3738.0699999999997,"text":"以后可能会变天然气"},{"start":3738.0699999999997,"end":3739.67,"text":"油会变天然气"},{"start":3739.67,"end":3740.43,"text":"ok"},{"start":3740.43,"end":3741.39,"text":"那我在想说"},{"start":3741.39,"end":3744.43,"text":"因为现在国际的四大云端服务厂商"},{"start":3744.43,"end":3746.0699999999997,"text":"包括Google 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nd":3900.94,"text":"谢谢"},{"start":3900.94,"end":3903.2599999999998,"text":"那你觉得整体来说不会受影响"},{"start":3903.2599999999998,"end":3903.9,"text":"整体不会影响"},{"start":3903.9,"end":3904.42,"text":"ok理解"},{"start":3904.42,"end":3905.2999999999997,"text":"好谢谢"},{"start":3905.2999999999997,"end":3906.9,"text":"好谢谢政委员"},{"start":3906.9,"end":3908.02,"text":"来部长先为座"},{"start":3909.8,"end":3911.7200000000003,"text":"来 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韧性的问题"},{"start":4172.14,"end":4174.58,"text":"因为他也是保障他自己"},{"start":4174.58,"end":4176.62,"text":"所以是企业自己的韧性的问题"},{"start":4177.46,"end":4179.58,"text":"国外大概也有这样的"},{"start":4179.58,"end":4180.82,"text":"相关的一些规范"},{"start":4182.29,"end":4183.29,"text":"因为我觉得这个"},{"start":4183.29,"end":4185.05,"text":"这个真的要想清楚"},{"start":4185.05,"end":4186.69,"text":"因为这几个问题不一样"},{"start":4186.69,"end":4187.89,"text":"如果你是台电"},{"start":4187.89,"end":4190.21,"text":"整个在供应经济发展有缺电"},{"start":4190.21,"end":4190.81,"text":"对不对"},{"start":4190.81,"end":4192.29,"text":"所以我们希望企业"},{"start":4192.29,"end":4194.69,"text":"自主设备 发电"},{"start":4194.69,"end":4196.01,"text":"甚至是除能"},{"start":4196.01,"end":4197.41,"text":"那这个地方的话"},{"start":4197.41,"end":4199.69,"text":"我们就要去统计你大概缺多少"},{"start":4199.69,"end":4201.73,"text":"那区域电网的拥设"},{"start":4201.73,"end":4202.45,"text":"这也是一个"},{"start":4202.45,"end":4203.57,"text":"因为你不能全国"},{"start":4203.57,"end":4204.01,"text":"对不对"},{"start":4204.01,"end":4206.09,"text":"乡村跟都市跟产业"},{"start":4206.09,"end":4207.89,"text":"他可能整个用电的这个"},{"start":4207.89,"end":4209.33,"text":"拥设的程度是不一样"},{"start":4209.93,"end":4212.09,"text":"那如果你是尖峰的调度"},{"start":4212.09,"end":4212.97,"text":"那尖峰调度"},{"start":4212.97,"end":4215.490000000001,"text":"你要求的是可验证的降载量"},{"start":4215.490000000001,"end":4216.81,"text":"这些东西就是"},{"start":4216.81,"end":4218.570000000001,"text":"你在这个地方"},{"start":4218.570000000001,"end":4220.650000000001,"text":"就是说我们背后一定有个动机"},{"start":4221.75,"end":4223.75,"text":"那我要解决什么样的问题再下去"},{"start":4223.75,"end":4225.07,"text":"你不可能一个东西解决"},{"start":4225.07,"end":4226.549999999999,"text":"同时那样的问题"},{"start":4226.549999999999,"end":4228.15,"text":"那如果你是讲备员"},{"start":4228.15,"end":4229.15,"text":"我如果是讲备员"},{"start":4229.15,"end":4232.509999999999,"text":"我企业可能要的是可靠度跟稳压"},{"start":4232.509999999999,"end":4235.11,"text":"他可能也不是电量所谓的问题"},{"start":4235.11,"end":4236.03,"text":"因为在第十条"},{"start":4236.03,"end":4237.469999999999,"text":"我觉得很恐怖的是"},{"start":4238.55,"end":4241.110000000001,"text":"等于现在节能的设备这边来讲"},{"start":4241.110000000001,"end":4241.91,"text":"相对的"},{"start":4241.91,"end":4243.91,"text":"其实不会比发电设备便宜"},{"start":4244.929999999999,"end":4247.45,"text":"你现在是要求它是设发电跟"},{"start":4247.45,"end":4248.209999999999,"text":"发电跟"},{"start":4248.209999999999,"end":4249.25,"text":"跟除能"},{"start":4249.25,"end":4249.57,"text":"对对"},{"start":4249.57,"end":4251.009999999999,"text":"而且你是用一种核定"},{"start":4251.009999999999,"end":4252.33,"text":"然后你如果又不达到"},{"start":4252.33,"end":4253.8099999999995,"text":"一定的数量设置"},{"start":4253.8099999999995,"end":4255.65,"text":"又会有罚折"},{"start":4255.65,"end":4257.209999999999,"text":"我觉得是不是可以在这边"},{"start":4257.209999999999,"end":4258.009999999999,"text":"再思考一下"},{"start":4258.009999999999,"end":4260.169999999999,"text":"因为你一定会推到执法去"},{"start":4260.169999999999,"end":4260.849999999999,"text":"但是现在就是"},{"start":4260.849999999999,"end":4262.049999999999,"text":"我觉得这个大方向"},{"start":4262.049999999999,"end":4263.25,"text":"是不是可以用成是"},{"start":4263.25,"end":4265.25,"text":"比较鼓励的一个方式"},{"start":4267.56,"end":4269.12,"text":"而且你现在是集"},{"start":4269.12,"end":4270.4800000000005,"text":"有些人他可能是发电"},{"start":4270.4800000000005,"end":4271.36,"text":"有些人是除能"},{"start":4271.36,"end":4272.96,"text":"假设我现在是企业用户"},{"start":4272.96,"end":4274.36,"text":"用电大户的话"},{"start":4274.36,"end":4276.52,"text":"其实我在虚量反应的话"},{"start":4276.52,"end":4279.96,"text":"我其实搞不好我是要买除能的设备就好"},{"start":4279.96,"end":4281.88,"text":"然后我用这个离封的东西"},{"start":4281.88,"end":4283.92,"text":"去做除能"},{"start":4283.92,"end":4284.4800000000005,"text":"对不对"},{"start":4284.4800000000005,"end":4286.16,"text":"那我到尖峰再放电出来"},{"start":4286.16,"end":4287.68,"text":"让我的企业的用电控制"},{"start":4287.68,"end":4292.24,"text":"所以我们会让发电跟除能之间有一些弹性"},{"start":4292.24,"end":4293.72,"text":"对 因为你是用集"},{"start":4293.72,"end":4294.04,"text":"我说"},{"start":4294.98,"end":4296.54,"text":"因为你是用集"},{"start":4296.54,"end":4298.099999999999,"text":"所以我就觉得很恐怖"},{"start":4298.099999999999,"end":4299.099999999999,"text":"有些"},{"start":4299.099999999999,"end":4302.78,"text":"另外有些他可能认为说我除能很贵"},{"start":4302.78,"end":4304.74,"text":"所以我可能买柴油发电机"},{"start":4304.74,"end":4306.0599999999995,"text":"或是接载生蚵的"},{"start":4306.0599999999995,"end":4307.299999999999,"text":"可能比较便宜"},{"start":4307.299999999999,"end":4309.139999999999,"text":"容许企业端他有个弹性"},{"start":4309.139999999999,"end":4310.379999999999,"text":"他可以调配"},{"start":4310.379999999999,"end":4312.74,"text":"因为你的法条写的是集"},{"start":4312.74,"end":4315.219999999999,"text":"集的话他是可以调配"},{"start":4315.219999999999,"end":4316.379999999999,"text":"就是不同的企业"},{"start":4316.379999999999,"end":4318.379999999999,"text":"因为集就表示我M的"},{"start":4318.379999999999,"end":4319.299999999999,"text":"我两个都要有"},{"start":4319.299999999999,"end":4319.78,"text":"但是他"},{"start":4319.78,"end":4320.74,"text":"我发电要有"},{"start":4320.74,"end":4321.82,"text":"节能也要有"},{"start":4321.82,"end":4323.0599999999995,"text":"不是他的比例"},{"start":4323.26,"end":4326.22,"text":"容许他有一个调整的空间"},{"start":4326.22,"end":4328.26,"text":"不是说一定就是50 50这样"},{"start":4328.26,"end":4329.38,"text":"不会"},{"start":4329.38,"end":4333.26,"text":"因为有些有些企业他觉得他的除能设备可以高一点"},{"start":4333.26,"end":4333.9800000000005,"text":"所以我是觉得"},{"start":4333.9800000000005,"end":4335.02,"text":"我是好一点"},{"start":4336.9800000000005,"end":4337.780000000001,"text":"这个"},{"start":4337.780000000001,"end":4339.38,"text":"我觉得你可以去考虑"},{"start":4339.38,"end":4340.74,"text":"因为这个是问题"},{"start":4340.74,"end":4343.9400000000005,"text":"然后这是少数大型企业的问题"},{"start":4343.9400000000005,"end":4345.42,"text":"还是我们医院学校"},{"start":4345.42,"end":4347.900000000001,"text":"甚至我们要鼓励发展的资料中心"},{"start":4347.900000000001,"end":4349.66,"text":"传产这些都要全部纳进去"},{"start":4349.66,"end":4351.42,"text":"因为刚刚很多文院"},{"start":4351.42,"end":4352.5,"text":"一定企业容许"},{"start":4352.5,"end":4353.860000000001,"text":"这到底是多少"},{"start":4353.860000000001,"end":4356.34,"text":"影响多少电号多少法人"},{"start":4356.34,"end":4357.54,"text":"我当初空无法"},{"start":4357.54,"end":4359.9400000000005,"text":"你们就说这个会影响八千家"},{"start":4359.9400000000005,"end":4362.38,"text":"我这个看起来影响也是七百五十几家"},{"start":4362.38,"end":4363.26,"text":"七百多家"},{"start":4363.26,"end":4363.66,"text":"对"},{"start":4363.66,"end":4365.42,"text":"那搞不好以后还会再更多"},{"start":4365.42,"end":4366.02,"text":"不知道"},{"start":4366.06,"end":4367.3,"text":"因为经济发展之后"},{"start":4367.3,"end":4367.780000000001,"text":"对不对"},{"start":4367.780000000001,"end":4369.540000000001,"text":"他可能会更多"},{"start":4369.540000000001,"end":4371.900000000001,"text":"然后他除能完之后能不能卖什么等等"},{"start":4371.900000000001,"end":4374.580000000001,"text":"我觉得这个都是很多的问题"},{"start":4374.580000000001,"end":4376.1,"text":"所以我是觉得在第十条"},{"start":4376.1,"end":4378.38,"text":"这个大方向可能要改一下"},{"start":4378.38,"end":4380.42,"text":"那再来就第十条这边"},{"start":4380.42,"end":4384.02,"text":"因为第十条是后面的第三地区新增进来的"},{"start":4384.02,"end":4386.620000000001,"text":"那是不是有重新公开征询过"},{"start":4387.78,"end":4389.34,"text":"你讲第十条是吧"},{"start":4389.34,"end":4390.38,"text":"对"},{"start":4390.38,"end":4391.0199999999995,"text":"我们有"},{"start":4391.0199999999995,"end":4391.9,"text":"刚刚有提到"},{"start":4391.9,"end":4393.9,"text":"就是我们有办过一些座谈会"},{"start":4393.9,"end":4395.38,"text":"那座谈会可不可以给我一些"},{"start":4395.38,"end":4399.0199999999995,"text":"他们的厂商的一些的反应的意见的资料"},{"start":4399.0199999999995,"end":4400.34,"text":"我觉得要再多办几场"},{"start":4400.34,"end":4403.38,"text":"因为现在厂商跟我反应的是很恐怖"},{"start":4403.38,"end":4406.1,"text":"他们不知道该怎么办的"},{"start":4406.1,"end":4408.26,"text":"然后我觉得还有一个就是说"},{"start":4408.26,"end":4409.9,"text":"像你可能在你们的报告"},{"start":4409.9,"end":4412.3,"text":"写反对政策委员删除第九条的"},{"start":4412.3,"end":4415.66,"text":"达中央主管机关规定数量门槛"},{"start":4415.7,"end":4419.099999999999,"text":"旅游是无法估算行政执行成本跟效益"},{"start":4419.099999999999,"end":4421.98,"text":"但是我觉得你的第十条连门槛都不敢写"},{"start":4423.03,"end":4425.2300000000005,"text":"那你也没有试用加速"},{"start":4425.2300000000005,"end":4427.03,"text":"也没有评估影响成本"},{"start":4427.03,"end":4429.55,"text":"我觉得你应该是在做这种效益"},{"start":4429.55,"end":4431.110000000001,"text":"因为他那个如果没有门槛的话"},{"start":4431.110000000001,"end":4432.2300000000005,"text":"我们每一个用户"},{"start":4432.2300000000005,"end":4435.110000000001,"text":"我们每个各户家庭都会被管到"},{"start":4435.97,"end":4438.81,"text":"所以当初为什么会有一定的容量以上"},{"start":4438.81,"end":4440.25,"text":"对 我说你要先估算一下"},{"start":4440.25,"end":4442.410000000001,"text":"你的执行成本跟成本效益"},{"start":4442.410000000001,"end":4444.6900000000005,"text":"我们用户有1300万户"},{"start":4446.12,"end":4447.92,"text":"我觉得你还是"},{"start":4447.92,"end":4449.64,"text":"那你如果有评估完的成本"},{"start":4449.64,"end":4450.96,"text":"下一报告再送给我"},{"start":4450.96,"end":4452.84,"text":"再看看你是什么评估效益的"},{"start":4452.84,"end":4453.72,"text":"好"},{"start":4454.94,"end":4456.179999999999,"text":"好 谢谢洪委员"},{"start":4456.179999999999,"end":4457.46,"text":"部长先回座"},{"start":4457.46,"end":4459.94,"text":"下一位咨询请李玉玲委员"},{"start":4474.22,"end":4476.26,"text":"好 谢谢主席"},{"start":4476.26,"end":4477.42,"text":"我们请公部长"},{"start":4477.42,"end":4478.34,"text":"请进行公部长"},{"start":4484.4,"end":4485.32,"text":"李玉玲长"},{"start":4485.32,"end":4485.759999999999,"text":"部长"},{"start":4486.5,"end":4491.38,"text":"台积电它现在是我们全球半导体供应链的最重要的支柱"},{"start":4491.38,"end":4494.62,"text":"也是我们台湾最具有竞争力的跨国的企业"},{"start":4494.62,"end":4496.78,"text":"那台积电的每一项投资的决策"},{"start":4496.78,"end":4500.82,"text":"都不仅是牵动着企业它本身的一个发展"},{"start":4500.82,"end":4505.54,"text":"那也是这个经年代工的这个掌握"},{"start":4505.54,"end":4507.54,"text":"先进制程的一个技术"},{"start":4507.54,"end":4511.34,"text":"尤其是攸关着我们台湾整个产业的"},{"start":4511.34,"end":4514.78,"text":"布局和国家经济的安全"},{"start":4514.78,"end":4516.38,"text":"是非常的重要"},{"start":4516.38,"end":4521.42,"text":"那尤其是今年来我们全球的对于AI人工智慧的需求"},{"start":4521.42,"end":4524.1,"text":"跟整个后续的扩大"},{"start":4524.1,"end":4528.54,"text":"年代能够提升了整个晶片的这个重要性"},{"start":4528.54,"end":4534.9400000000005,"text":"那所以说台积电它在我们世界上各国都有去投资"},{"start":4534.9400000000005,"end":4538.1,"text":"那本来特别要提到的就是说在美国的部分"},{"start":4538.1,"end":4542.62,"text":"在去年的时候它有在投资加码了1000亿"},{"start":4542.62,"end":4544.58,"text":"那在今年他们的法说会之后"},{"start":4544.62,"end":4546.9,"text":"它又在加码了这个1000亿"},{"start":4546.9,"end":4548.5,"text":"这个加码这部分的话"},{"start":4548.5,"end":4551.18,"text":"有先经过我们投审会的投审吗"},{"start":4551.18,"end":4552.18,"text":"有送来投审吗"},{"start":4552.18,"end":4556.9,"text":"它这个只是宣布它的一些未来的投资的计划跟方案"},{"start":4556.9,"end":4560.38,"text":"可是美国认为这个是既定事实啦"},{"start":4560.38,"end":4563.14,"text":"它实际要投资它会送案子给我们"},{"start":4563.14,"end":4564.5,"text":"所以它只是说一说而已"},{"start":4564.5,"end":4565.46,"text":"不会实际投资"},{"start":4565.46,"end":4566.0199999999995,"text":"没有啦"},{"start":4566.0199999999995,"end":4568.0599999999995,"text":"它已经法说会会这样说"},{"start":4568.0599999999995,"end":4569.54,"text":"它应该会执行"},{"start":4569.54,"end":4573.0599999999995,"text":"这个是在法说会里面这样的宣布"},{"start":4573.0599999999995,"end":4574.22,"text":"它不会不去执行"},{"start":4574.22,"end":4576.02,"text":"只是说它案子送过来"},{"start":4576.02,"end":4577.46,"text":"所以它会去执行嘛"},{"start":4577.46,"end":4577.780000000001,"text":"对对对"},{"start":4577.780000000001,"end":4579.34,"text":"法说会说了就会去执行"},{"start":4579.34,"end":4579.820000000001,"text":"对对对"},{"start":4579.820000000001,"end":4582.7,"text":"因为是这个魏董亲自宣布的"},{"start":4582.7,"end":4584.900000000001,"text":"那所以说一定要送来我们投审会"},{"start":4584.900000000001,"end":4585.38,"text":"会会"},{"start":4585.38,"end":4585.9400000000005,"text":"为什么"},{"start":4585.9400000000005,"end":4590.06,"text":"因为台积电它是整个掌控着全世界的这个"},{"start":4590.06,"end":4592.14,"text":"就是半导体的这个龙头"},{"start":4592.14,"end":4592.7,"text":"是是"},{"start":4592.7,"end":4596.9400000000005,"text":"所以它的最重要的这个技术啊"},{"start":4596.9400000000005,"end":4597.9800000000005,"text":"关键技术的话"},{"start":4597.9800000000005,"end":4599.1,"text":"我们要把关"},{"start":4599.1,"end":4600.860000000001,"text":"因为外界的话大家会担心啊"},{"start":4600.860000000001,"end":4603.3,"text":"我们关键技术会不会外流出去"},{"start":4603.3,"end":4605.38,"text":"会不会让我们台湾的经济被掏空"},{"start":4605.38,"end":4607.78,"text":"整个供应链会不会下滑掉"},{"start":4607.78,"end":4608.9400000000005,"text":"这个都是很重要的"},{"start":4608.9400000000005,"end":4610.900000000001,"text":"我们审查的基础一定是"},{"start":4610.900000000001,"end":4612.9800000000005,"text":"最新进的技术是留在台湾"},{"start":4612.9800000000005,"end":4613.78,"text":"最新进"},{"start":4613.78,"end":4614.46,"text":"那现在不是"},{"start":4614.46,"end":4615.7,"text":"最大的量"},{"start":4615.7,"end":4616.9400000000005,"text":"一定要在台湾"},{"start":4616.9400000000005,"end":4619.06,"text":"那阿奈米不是已经他们在"},{"start":4619.06,"end":4621.06,"text":"在美国要制成了吗"},{"start":4621.06,"end":4622.02,"text":"他要相对投资"},{"start":4622.02,"end":4623.1,"text":"投资在台湾"},{"start":4623.1,"end":4624.1,"text":"要比国外要多"},{"start":4624.1,"end":4625.5,"text":"所以我们投审"},{"start":4625.5,"end":4627.22,"text":"一定有好好的把关"},{"start":4627.22,"end":4628.54,"text":"会把关嘛"},{"start":4628.54,"end":4630.820000000001,"text":"所以不要说他已经在法说会说了"},{"start":4630.820000000001,"end":4632.38,"text":"那事后他送进来的话"},{"start":4632.42,"end":4634.9400000000005,"text":"我们的投审不敢说不"},{"start":4634.9400000000005,"end":4636.14,"text":"一定会同意"},{"start":4636.14,"end":4637.34,"text":"就是要把关"},{"start":4637.34,"end":4638.18,"text":"对要把关啊"},{"start":4638.18,"end":4640.82,"text":"一定要把关键技术留在台湾"},{"start":4640.82,"end":4641.900000000001,"text":"这个影响"},{"start":4641.900000000001,"end":4642.86,"text":"这个很重要"},{"start":4642.86,"end":4645.26,"text":"会影响整个台湾的经济的发展"},{"start":4645.26,"end":4647.06,"text":"整个供应链都会被影响的"},{"start":4647.06,"end":4648.58,"text":"这个特别注意的"},{"start":4648.58,"end":4649.66,"text":"那接下来的话"},{"start":4649.66,"end":4651.06,"text":"我们要问一下能源部分"},{"start":4651.06,"end":4652.62,"text":"今天我们主席特别排到"},{"start":4652.62,"end":4654.06,"text":"这个能源"},{"start":4654.06,"end":4655.82,"text":"那现在我们"},{"start":4655.82,"end":4656.86,"text":"在"},{"start":4656.86,"end":4660.06,"text":"台湾的再生能源的发展来看"},{"start":4660.06,"end":4662.3,"text":"整个结构都是以太阳能"},{"start":4662.34,"end":4666.38,"text":"跟风力发电为最主要的发电来源"},{"start":4666.38,"end":4668.38,"text":"那还有包括的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sauna"},{"start":6256.86,"end":6259.0199999999995,"text":"因為有再生能源條例 有地熱能"},{"start":6259.59,"end":6261.09,"text":"所以才會有"},{"start":6261.69,"end":6266.49,"text":"地熱能探勘以開發許可及管理辦法第九條"},{"start":6266.79,"end":6267.79,"text":"它就有"},{"start":6267.79,"end":6270.589999999999,"text":"所以這個會牽扯到"},{"start":6270.589999999999,"end":6271.889999999999,"text":"會相關啦"},{"start":6271.889999999999,"end":6274.99,"text":"所以我的建議就是說熱能的部分"},{"start":6274.99,"end":6277.99,"text":"如果能做出定義的話啦"},{"start":6277.99,"end":6278.99,"text":"如果啦"},{"start":6278.99,"end":6281.99,"text":"當然我們在築條的時候可以把它"},{"start":6281.99,"end":6283.49,"text":"再納入"},{"start":6283.49,"end":6284.99,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":6285.6,"end":6288.6,"text":"那我就回到這個地熱能這邊"},{"start":6289.07,"end":6292.57,"text":"因為它是一個再生能源發展條例所明定的"},{"start":6292.57,"end":6293.57,"text":"地熱能"},{"start":6294.17,"end":6296.47,"text":"所以相關地熱能的這些"},{"start":6297.06,"end":6300.860000000001,"text":"要去探勘或是開發許可"},{"start":6301.27,"end":6303.27,"text":"就定了一個管理辦法"},{"start":6303.27,"end":6305.27,"text":"這管理辦法裡面"},{"start":6305.78,"end":6306.78,"text":"第四"},{"start":6307.74,"end":6308.74,"text":"第四款"},{"start":6308.74,"end":6310.04,"text":"第一項的第四款"},{"start":6310.04,"end":6311.54,"text":"第九條的第四款"},{"start":6312.24,"end":6316.24,"text":"開發場址位於原住民族土地或部落"},{"start":6316.24,"end":6320.24,"text":"及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者"},{"start":6320.24,"end":6324.24,"text":"應檢附於原住民族基本法第21條規定"},{"start":6324.24,"end":6326.24,"text":"辦理之相關證明文件"},{"start":6327.95,"end":6329.95,"text":"現在在執行上"},{"start":6329.95,"end":6332.95,"text":"這個原住民族部落"},{"start":6333.2,"end":6335.2,"text":"跟我們的這些"},{"start":6336.14,"end":6337.14,"text":"開發"},{"start":6337.14,"end":6338.14,"text":"單位"},{"start":6338.8,"end":6339.8,"text":"或是"},{"start":6340.12,"end":6342.12,"text":"這個主管機關"},{"start":6341.89,"end":6342.89,"text":"會產生一個"},{"start":6344.47,"end":6346.47,"text":"一直以來的爭議"},{"start":6347.53,"end":6350.53,"text":"就是說這個因為你們寫的是開發場址"},{"start":6351.49,"end":6352.49,"text":"開發場址"},{"start":6353.33,"end":6356.33,"text":"地熱能的開發場址"},{"start":6357.43,"end":6359.43,"text":"好"},{"start":6358.29,"end":6360.29,"text":"要依這個原基法21條"},{"start":6361.16,"end":6362.16,"text":"就變成說"},{"start":6362.45,"end":6366.45,"text":"通常開發場址就是在那個地熱能的前面"},{"start":6367.71,"end":6369.71,"text":"這個開發場址"},{"start":6370.41,"end":6372.41,"text":"事實上地熱在裡面"},{"start":6372.94,"end":6373.94,"text":"地熱能"},{"start":6374.21,"end":6376.21,"text":"地熱能在裡面"},{"start":6376.62,"end":6379.62,"text":"他會他的周邊就不是這個"},{"start":6379.62,"end":6381.62,"text":"這個旁邊的部落"},{"start":6381.62,"end":6383.62,"text":"他可能會是另外一個部落"},{"start":6385.21,"end":6387.21,"text":"好"},{"start":6385.95,"end":6387.95,"text":"就會產生這樣的一個"},{"start":6388.35,"end":6390.35,"text":"E"},{"start":6389.53,"end":6391.53,"text":"事實上我在這個"},{"start":6391.53,"end":6393.53,"text":"我有召開過協調會"},{"start":6394.8,"end":6396.8,"text":"也邀請過這個經濟部"},{"start":6397.98,"end":6400.98,"text":"即應該是能源署吧"},{"start":6401.38,"end":6403.38,"text":"所以也也討論過這個部分"},{"start":6403.38,"end":6405.38,"text":"所以你們要去"},{"start":6405.81,"end":6406.81,"text":"針對這個"},{"start":6407.81,"end":6409.81,"text":"這個管理辦法第九條"},{"start":6409.81,"end":6411.81,"text":"或是其他的條文跟地熱能"},{"start":6412.72,"end":6414.72,"text":"的探勘開發"},{"start":6414.56,"end":6415.56,"text":"的時候"},{"start":6415.56,"end":6417.56,"text":"要依原基法21條"},{"start":6417.56,"end":6419.56,"text":"來去辦理這個"},{"start":6419.56,"end":6421.56,"text":"諮商部落諮商同意的時候"},{"start":6422.77,"end":6424.77,"text":"這個就必須要去"},{"start":6424.77,"end":6426.77,"text":"因為現在目前就是有這樣的一個爭議"},{"start":6427.63,"end":6429.63,"text":"當目前的做法就是"},{"start":6430.08,"end":6432.08,"text":"就是在那個"},{"start":6431.53,"end":6433.53,"text":"地熱能因為你地熱能開發場子"},{"start":6433.53,"end":6435.53,"text":"當然會是比較平坦的地方"},{"start":6437.24,"end":6439.24,"text":"對不對 事實上地熱在裡面"},{"start":6439.99,"end":6441.99,"text":"地熱能在裡面"},{"start":6441.91,"end":6443.91,"text":"它可能還這個可能很遠"},{"start":6443.91,"end":6445.91,"text":"所以會產生這樣的一個"},{"start":6445.91,"end":6447.91,"text":"在執行上"},{"start":6449.61,"end":6451.61,"text":"對部落的諮商同意的"},{"start":6454.09,"end":6456.09,"text":"執行上都會產生這樣的疑問"},{"start":6456.09,"end":6458.09,"text":"所以這個部分請這個"},{"start":6458.09,"end":6460.09,"text":"經濟部能源署"},{"start":6460.09,"end":6462.09,"text":"或是相關機關"},{"start":6462.09,"end":6464.09,"text":"再研議好不好"},{"start":6465.13,"end":6467.13,"text":"來瞭解一下"},{"start":6468.13,"end":6470.13,"text":"謝謝政務委員部長辛苦之後"},{"start":6470.13,"end":6472.13,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":6783.29,"end":6785.29,"text":"好請立席關心請就座"},{"start":6785.29,"end":6787.29,"text":"我們繼續開會"},{"start":6786.4,"end":6788.4,"text":"下一聲請謝一鳳謝一鳳謝一鳳不在"},{"start":6788.4,"end":6790.4,"text":"下一聲請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":6803.54,"end":6805.54,"text":"主席再談委員先進"},{"start":6805.54,"end":6807.54,"text":"列席政府軍事法官員會場公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生"},{"start":6807.54,"end":6809.54,"text":"有請拱部長跟吳署長"},{"start":6809.54,"end":6811.54,"text":"請記住拱部長能源署吳署長"},{"start":6817.04,"end":6819.04,"text":"部長好署長好"},{"start":6819.04,"end":6821.04,"text":"今天我是說要求競速評估"},{"start":6821.04,"end":6823.04,"text":"自備發電的設備選項"},{"start":6823.04,"end":6825.04,"text":"還有盤點我們消防公安都計的"},{"start":6825.04,"end":6827.04,"text":"配套法規為什麼呢我們先看一下"},{"start":6827.04,"end":6829.04,"text":"今天我看之前的委員"},{"start":6829.04,"end":6831.04,"text":"都詢問過你們的執法"},{"start":6831.04,"end":6833.04,"text":"因為你們這次能源管理法"},{"start":6833.04,"end":6835.04,"text":"因應電力用電的成長需求你們修訂了"},{"start":6835.04,"end":6837.04,"text":"而且還有個用電大戶的"},{"start":6837.04,"end":6839.04,"text":"條款說到5MW以上"},{"start":6839.04,"end":6841.04,"text":"要自備發電設施結果"},{"start":6841.04,"end":6843.04,"text":"股市怎麼反應"},{"start":6843.04,"end":6845.04,"text":"現在雖然上禮拜"},{"start":6845.04,"end":6847.04,"text":"到現在股市這個"},{"start":6847.04,"end":6849.04,"text":"雲霄飛車啊但是呢"},{"start":6849.04,"end":6851.04,"text":"儲能股跟能源股呢好像都還是"},{"start":6851.04,"end":6853.04,"text":"被看好請問部長"},{"start":6853.04,"end":6855.04,"text":"今天大家一直問你說公務"},{"start":6855.04,"end":6857.04,"text":"部執法的內容你你知道為什麼大家"},{"start":6857.04,"end":6859.04,"text":"都在關心嗎"},{"start":6859.43,"end":6861.43,"text":"股票的關係還是什麼關係"},{"start":6862.28,"end":6864.28,"text":"發委員因為這個是"},{"start":6864.28,"end":6866.28,"text":"有苛責企業界的責任"},{"start":6866.28,"end":6868.28,"text":"大家都很關心他"},{"start":6868.28,"end":6870.28,"text":"會不會被苛責到所以供應商"},{"start":6870.28,"end":6872.28,"text":"他就強調你們修法之後呢"},{"start":6872.28,"end":6874.28,"text":"你們要買他的產品需求者"},{"start":6874.28,"end":6876.28,"text":"他擔心成本我到底要不要"},{"start":6876.28,"end":6878.28,"text":"去徵購這些設備對不對"},{"start":6878.28,"end":6880.28,"text":"站在我們企業營運的角度他一定會"},{"start":6880.28,"end":6882.28,"text":"關心到底他未來要因應法規"},{"start":6882.28,"end":6884.28,"text":"調整他去做什麼樣的"},{"start":6884.28,"end":6886.28,"text":"配合好那我們看到"},{"start":6886.28,"end":6888.28,"text":"這裡面有個很關鍵的過去比較沒有"},{"start":6888.28,"end":6890.28,"text":"出現的過去我們任何"},{"start":6890.28,"end":6892.28,"text":"的事業都要有個緊急"},{"start":6892.28,"end":6894.28,"text":"備援對不對"},{"start":6894.28,"end":6896.28,"text":"現在你們對這個自備發電"},{"start":6896.28,"end":6898.28,"text":"到底緊急備援可不可以記錄自備"},{"start":6898.28,"end":6900.28,"text":"發電的容量當中"},{"start":6900.28,"end":6902.28,"text":"目前"},{"start":6902.02,"end":6904.02,"text":"部長或者署長你們有沒有一個明確的"},{"start":6904.02,"end":6906.02,"text":"最後要宣示"},{"start":6906.51,"end":6908.51,"text":"就是我們還要跟相關的"},{"start":6908.51,"end":6910.51,"text":"利害關係人做一些討論"},{"start":6910.51,"end":6912.51,"text":"那我試著來詮釋一下"},{"start":6912.51,"end":6914.51,"text":"緊急備援跟自備"},{"start":6914.51,"end":6916.51,"text":"發電是兩碼子事"},{"start":6916.51,"end":6918.51,"text":"緊急備援我是馬克風公司"},{"start":6918.51,"end":6920.51,"text":"我不是生產事業但是我要緊急備援"},{"start":6920.51,"end":6922.51,"text":"電梯不能停"},{"start":6922.39,"end":6924.39,"text":"照明不能停"},{"start":6924.39,"end":6926.39,"text":"狀況發生的時候疏散顧客對不對"},{"start":6926.39,"end":6928.39,"text":"但是我不需要什麼"},{"start":6928.39,"end":6930.39,"text":"自備發電來供應我的冷氣"},{"start":6930.39,"end":6932.39,"text":"因為公共電力網給我營業"},{"start":6932.39,"end":6934.39,"text":"場所電力我就營業"},{"start":6934.74,"end":6936.74,"text":"公共電力網中斷我可能就營業中斷"},{"start":6936.74,"end":6938.74,"text":"我只要把顧客疏散"},{"start":6938.74,"end":6940.74,"text":"好就好但是製造"},{"start":6940.74,"end":6942.74,"text":"業他不同我們希望"},{"start":6942.74,"end":6944.74,"text":"減輕公共電力網的負荷"},{"start":6944.74,"end":6946.74,"text":"希望大電力用戶你要的電"},{"start":6946.74,"end":6948.74,"text":"自己發所以這是增加了"},{"start":6948.74,"end":6950.74,"text":"自備發電這樣的要求是不是"},{"start":6950.74,"end":6952.74,"text":"這個原因"},{"start":6952.8,"end":6954.8,"text":"也有增加韌性"},{"start":6954.8,"end":6956.8,"text":"減輕公共電網的負荷"},{"start":6956.8,"end":6958.8,"text":"讓電網的韌性提高"},{"start":6958.8,"end":6960.8,"text":"所以這種情況之下"},{"start":6960.8,"end":6962.8,"text":"過去的傳統備援會用什麼"},{"start":6962.8,"end":6964.8,"text":"才有電力"},{"start":6964.21,"end":6966.21,"text":"你看你後面那個"},{"start":6966.21,"end":6968.21,"text":"擴音器後面那個緊急照明"},{"start":6968.21,"end":6970.21,"text":"他用什麼"},{"start":6969.37,"en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舉例來講"},{"start":7047.36,"end":7049.36,"text":"我考過上次之前考過農業部長"},{"start":7049.36,"end":7051.36,"text":"燃料電子它到底是儲能還是發電裝置"},{"start":7053.09,"end":7055.09,"text":"燃料電子是發電式"},{"start":7055.09,"end":7057.09,"text":"所以很多人看到電池以為它是儲能"},{"start":7057.09,"end":7059.09,"text":"它是發電裝置"},{"start":7059.09,"end":7061.09,"text":"當然相較於柴油的備援電力"},{"start":7061.09,"end":7063.09,"text":"它有它的不同的"},{"start":7063.26,"end":7065.26,"text":"一個趨勢"},{"start":7065.26,"end":7067.26,"text":"選項 那麼它相較於鋰電池的儲能"},{"start":7067.26,"end":7069.26,"text":"它也有它不同的優勢"},{"start":7069.26,"end":7071.26,"text":"簡單講柴電呢"},{"start":7071.26,"end":7073.26,"text":"因為儲存高揮發性的燃料"},{"start":7073.26,"end":7075.26,"text":"容有火警的危險"},{"start":7075.26,"end":7077.26,"text":"儲能一般的鋰電有高溫的風險"},{"start":7077.26,"end":7079.26,"text":"燃料電子它相對的"},{"start":7079.26,"end":7081.26,"text":"它沒有柴油發電的噪音"},{"start":7081.26,"end":7083.26,"text":"它沒有空污"},{"start":7083.26,"end":7085.26,"text":"它也沒有鋰電池的那樣的高溫自然的情況"},{"start":7085.26,"end":7087.26,"text":"這種情況之下"},{"start":7087.26,"end":7089.26,"text":"但是目前我們對於緊急備援"},{"start":7089.26,"end":7091.26,"text":"的柴油發電或者是說"},{"start":7091.26,"end":7093.26,"text":"鋰電池的儲能"},{"start":7093.26,"end":7095.26,"text":"我們有在建築的相關法規上"},{"start":7095.26,"end":7097.26,"text":"有相關的配套是不是這樣"},{"start":7097.26,"end":7099.26,"text":"舉例來講我舉例"},{"start":7099.26,"end":7101.26,"text":"按照目前我們的電業相關規定"},{"start":7101.26,"end":7103.26,"text":"你的緊急備援的柴油發電必須設在一樓"},{"start":7104.27,"end":7106.27,"text":"你不能放在地下室也不能放在高樓層"},{"start":7106.27,"end":7108.27,"text":"安太醫院又是犯了這個錯誤"},{"start":7108.98,"end":7110.98,"text":"請問一下燃料電子"},{"start":7111.36,"end":7113.36,"text":"不能放在地下室"},{"start":7112.73,"end":7114.73,"text":"可不可以放在高樓層"},{"start":7114.53,"end":7116.53,"text":"有沒有去做過相關的研究"},{"start":7116.61,"end":7118.61,"text":"他好像沒有這樣的限制"},{"start":7118.61,"end":7120.61,"text":"他都沒有限制"},{"start":7121.31,"end":7123.31,"text":"沒有好像沒有限制"},{"start":7123.31,"end":7125.31,"text":"但是他雖然沒有限制但是他有一個條件的限制"},{"start":7125.31,"end":7127.31,"text":"什麼事情"},{"start":7127.17,"end":7129.17,"text":"他要拉天然氣管"},{"start":7129.17,"end":7131.17,"text":"對他需要輸氣管"},{"start":7131.17,"end":7133.17,"text":"所以說如果未來的用戶"},{"start":7133.17,"end":7135.17,"text":"他沒有輸氣管的預先配置"},{"start":7135.17,"end":7137.17,"text":"他想要選擇這個燃料電子"},{"start":7137.17,"end":7139.17,"text":"來做為儲能也好做為發電也好"},{"start":7139.17,"end":7141.17,"text":"免受於柴油發電的這些"},{"start":7141.17,"end":7143.17,"text":"不方便免受於鋰電儲能的不方便"},{"start":7143.17,"end":7145.17,"text":"他卻因為原來的規劃沒有"},{"start":7145.17,"end":7147.17,"text":"所以他不能做是不是這樣子"},{"start":7149.93,"end":7151.93,"text":"經濟部有沒有跟你們相關的部會"},{"start":7151.93,"end":7153.93,"text":"去做研究"},{"start":7155.5,"end":7157.5,"text":"就是天然氣管線的這個"},{"start":7157.5,"end":7159.5,"text":"是的天然氣管線的規則管"},{"start":7160.25,"end":7162.25,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":7161.97,"end":7163.97,"text":"也是"},{"start":7178.12,"end":7180.12,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":7181.39,"end":7183.39,"text":"綠電獎金那是另外"},{"start":7183.39,"end":7185.39,"text":"好"},{"start":7185.39,"end":7187.39,"text":"所以我們了解未來要符合世界潮流趨勢"},{"start":7187.39,"end":7189.39,"text":"我們大電力用戶鼓勵他用綠電"},{"start":7189.39,"end":7191.39,"text":"但是"},{"start":7191.39,"end":7193.39,"text":"燃料電子他用的是低碳電力"},{"start":7193.39,"end":7195.39,"text":"那如果他這樣碳捕捉"},{"start":7195.39,"end":7197.39,"text":"他有沒有在未來我們能源使用上"},{"start":7197.39,"end":7199.39,"text":"給予一些不同於"},{"start":7199.39,"end":7201.39,"text":"綠電的優惠"},{"start":7201.39,"end":7203.39,"text":"書長你來說明一下"},{"start":7203.23,"end":7205.23,"text":"他如果LNG有加上碳捕捉的話"},{"start":7205.23,"end":7207.23,"text":"基本上他就是無碳的"},{"start":7207.23,"end":7209.23,"text":"我們可以把他列入為低碳的"},{"start":7209.23,"end":7211.23,"text":"對對對"},{"start":7211.23,"end":7213.23,"text":"所以未來如果能源署有制定"},{"start":7213.23,"end":7215.23,"text":"我們事業單位他使用的"},{"start":7215.23,"end":7217.23,"text":"綠電的獎勵"},{"start":7217.23,"end":7219.23,"text":"那麼純綠電大家會想到是氫能"},{"start":7219.23,"end":7221.23,"text":"光電風電"},{"start":7221.23,"end":7223.23,"text":"但是呢使用LNG的"},{"start":7223.23,"end":7225.23,"text":"燃料電池他是"},{"start":7225.23,"end":7227.23,"text":"低碳電力未來是不是也會給他"},{"start":7227.23,"end":7229.23,"text":"雖然不像純綠電那麼高的"},{"start":7229.23,"end":7231.23,"text":"優惠也會給他一定的優惠會這樣考慮嗎"},{"start":7232.44,"end":7234.44,"text":"我們會試同啊"},{"start":7234.44,"end":7236.44,"text":"他如果說他有碳捕捉"},{"start":7236.44,"end":7238.44,"text":"把產生的碳捕捉下來"},{"start":7238.44,"end":7240.44,"text":"我們會試同他是"},{"start":7240.44,"end":7242.44,"text":"綠電是一樣的"},{"start":7242.44,"end":7244.44,"text":"是可以這樣子好那我們來看一看"},{"start":7244.44,"end":7246.44,"text":"現在最夯的就是AI啦"},{"start":7246.44,"end":7248.44,"text":"我們不只在台灣我到其他國家去訪問"},{"start":7248.44,"end":7250.44,"text":"他們也在討論AI"},{"start":7250.44,"end":7252.44,"text":"這個算力中心可以放在哪裡"},{"start":7252.44,"end":7254.44,"text":"到處要搶電"},{"start":7254.44,"end":7256.44,"text":"事實上我之前有跟我們書長"},{"start":7256.44,"end":7258.44,"text":"還有我們的原管局請教了"},{"start":7258.44,"end":7260.44,"text":"設在高雄還是設在屏東"},{"start":7260.44,"end":7262.44,"text":"這個算力中心他第一個考量是什麼"},{"start":7262.44,"end":7264.44,"text":"電力供應"},{"start":7263.67,"end":7265.67,"text":"所以這種情況之下"},{"start":7265.67,"end":7267.67,"text":"這些算力中心可以設置在哪裡"},{"start":7267.67,"end":7269.67,"text":"你們會不會去做一些法規的盤點"},{"start":7271.11,"end":7273.11,"text":"會啊"},{"start":7273.11,"end":7275.11,"text":"最後主席站起來了"},{"start":7275.11,"end":7277.11,"text":"所以我希望我們部長跟署長"},{"start":7277.11,"end":7279.11,"text":"因應我們這次能管法的修法"},{"start":7279.11,"end":7281.11,"text":"你們要清楚的闡明我們自備發電的"},{"start":7281.11,"end":7283.11,"text":"政策用意是什麼"},{"start":7283.11,"end":7285.11,"t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登記發言文除不在場之外區域區域發言完畢"},{"start":7931.16,"end":7932.16,"text":"我們訊帶結束"},{"start":7933.56,"end":7935.56,"text":"由委員謝一鳳、傅崑錡"},{"start":7935.56,"end":7938.56,"text":"參與所提書面質詢我們列入紀錄"},{"start":7938.56,"end":7940.56,"text":"再加一個張家俊"},{"start":7941.34,"end":7943.34,"text":"所提書面質詢列入紀錄"},{"start":7943.34,"end":7945.34,"text":"書面質詢及未解答的部分請相關單位"},{"start":7945.34,"end":7947.34,"text":"一週內書面答复並複製本會"},{"start":7947.34,"end":7949.34,"text":"委員另有要求其間者重新鎖定"},{"start":7949.34,"end":7950.34,"text":"好"},{"start":7950.34,"end":7954.34,"text":"本日討論事項所列一成能源管理法部分條文"},{"start":7954.34,"end":7956.34,"text":"修正草案"},{"start":7956.34,"end":7957.34,"text":"詢答完畢"},{"start":7957.34,"end":7960.34,"text":"我們定期繼續進行審查"},{"start":7960.34,"end":7961.34,"text":"大家辛苦了"},{"start":7962.48,"end":7963.48,"text":"今天散會"},{"start":7976.78,"end":7977.78,"text":"再見"},{"start":7977.62,"end":7979.62,"text":"11點過去了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}