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邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告"},{"start":1932.67,"end":1935.67,"text":"國軍軍民採購履約爭議與違約制"},{"start":1935.67,"end":1937.67,"text":"貨裝期財延宕採購策略"},{"start":1937.67,"end":1939.67,"text":"精進作為並被質詢"},{"start":1939.67,"end":1943.67,"text":"國防部部長顧立雄國防採購室主任趙雅萍報告"},{"start":1943.93,"end":1945.93,"text":"委員盧美寧等"},{"start":1945.94,"end":1947.94,"text":"二十人質詢軍友國防部部長顧立雄"},{"start":1947.94,"end":1952.94,"text":"全民防衛動員署署長廖建新政治作戰局局長史順文"},{"start":1952.94,"end":1954.94,"text":"軍備局局長林文祥"},{"start":1954.94,"end":1956.94,"text":"陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義"},{"start":1956.94,"end":1958.94,"text":"空軍司令部參謀長李慶然"},{"start":1958.94,"end":1961.94,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁詠坤"},{"start":1961.94,"end":1965.94,"text":"及國家中山科學研究院運長李世強等集席答覆"},{"start":1966.68,"end":1968.68,"text":"決定登記質詢再查委員軍已發文"},{"start":1968.68,"end":1970.68,"text":"報告及詢答結束"},{"start":1970.68,"end":1972.68,"text":"二委員黃仁王定宇"},{"start":1972.68,"end":1975.68,"text":"宏育祥所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1975.68,"end":1979.68,"text":"三委員所提書面及口頭質詢未及答覆會要求提供資訊"},{"start":1980.3,"end":1986.3,"text":"請國防部以二週內順便答覆本會全體委員並附資本會委員令指定期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":1986.3,"end":1987.3,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1991.6,"end":1993.6,"text":"請醫事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1993.6,"end":1994.6,"text":"報告事項"},{"start":1994.6,"end":1996.6,"text":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告"},{"start":1996.6,"end":2001.6,"text":"我國近年針對南海主權與法律地位之國際宣傳實質成效"},{"start":2001.6,"end":2006.6,"text":"及如何應對周邊國家擴大主權國際宣傳之具體反制策略"},{"start":2006.6,"end":2010.6,"text":"並請海洋委員會大陸委員會練習並備質詢"},{"start":2010.6,"end":2011.6,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2012.91,"end":2016.91,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員"},{"start":2016.91,"end":2019.91,"text":"首先介紹陳永康陳委員"},{"start":2021.32,"end":2024.32,"text":"以及陳俊宇陳委員"},{"start":2026.85,"end":2028.85,"text":"外交部林佳龍林部長"},{"start":2030.82,"end":2034.82,"text":"亞東太平洋司劉坤豪劉副司長"},{"start":2035.65,"end":2039.65,"text":"亞西吉非洲司顏嘉良顏司長"},{"start":2040.35,"end":2042.35,"text":"歐洲司黃軍耀黃司長"},{"start":2043.9,"end":2046.9,"text":"拉美吉加勒比海斯韓智正韓司長"},{"start":2048.17,"end":2050.17,"text":"北美司王良玉王司長"},{"start":2051.44,"end":2053.44,"text":"條約法律司李憲章理事長"},{"start":2056.1,"end":2060.1,"text":"國際組織司孫檢員孫司長"},{"start":2061.08,"end":2065.08,"text":"國際合作局金金書司葉志成葉司長"},{"start":2066.49,"end":2069.49,"text":"國際傳播司張秀蓁張司長"},{"start":2070.26,"end":2073.26,"text":"研究設計會林世新林副主任"},{"start":2074.51,"end":2077.51,"text":"人事處張書豪張副處長"},{"start":2079.57,"end":2082.57,"text":"公眾外交協調會蕭光偉蕭執行長"},{"start":2084.04,"end":2087.04,"text":"台灣日本關係協會洪英傑洪秘書長"},{"start":2088.01,"end":2090.01,"text":"林氏事務局鄭振勇鄭局長"},{"start":2092.53,"end":2094.53,"text":"海洋委員會張忠龍張博士"},{"start":2096.68,"end":2098.68,"text":"政務副主任委員"},{"start":2101.24,"end":2104.24,"text":"海域安全處陳昭陽陳處長"},{"start":2106.33,"end":2108.33,"text":"國際發展處"},{"start":2108.93,"end":2110.93,"text":"李子嘉李專偉"},{"start":2111.87,"end":2115.87,"text":"海軍署巡防組洪博生洪組長"},{"start":2117.3,"end":2121.3,"text":"海巡署督察組劉少卿劉專偉"},{"start":2123.16,"end":2127.16,"text":"大陸委員會沈友忠沈副主任委員"},{"start":2128.76,"end":2130.76,"text":"經濟處姚英華姚專偉"},{"start":2133.52,"end":2135.52,"text":"法證處楊玉靜楊專偉"},{"start":2140.84,"end":2146.84,"text":"請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有疑漏或錯誤需要更正之處"},{"start":2146.84,"end":2148.84,"text":"沒有我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2151.12,"end":2160.12,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告我國近年針對南海主權與法律地位之國際宣傳實際成效"},{"start":2160.12,"end":2167.12,"text":"即如何應對周邊國家擴大主權國際宣傳之具體反制策略並被質詢"},{"start":2167.12,"end":2169.12,"text":"現在請林部長上台報告"},{"start":2178.68,"end":2181.68,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安"},{"start":2182.39,"end":2188.39,"text":"首先感謝邀請外交部針對我國近年"},{"start":2189.53,"end":2194.53,"text":"針對南海主權及法律地位之國際宣傳時機"},{"start":2194.53,"end":2203.53,"text":"即如何應對周邊國家擴大主權國際宣傳之具體反制策略來進行專題報告"},{"start":2203.53,"end":2206.53,"text":"那在書面報告請參閱"},{"start":2206.53,"end":2209.53,"text":"以下就重點進行口頭的說明"},{"start":2210.22,"end":2214.22,"text":"首先這是南海諸島屬於中華民國領土"},{"start":2214.22,"end":2222.22,"text":"中華民國對南海諸島及其相關海域享有國際法及海洋法上的權利不容置疑"},{"start":2223.65,"end":2234.65,"text":"那麼我國近年針對南海太平島的主權與法律地位的國際宣傳的情形跟成果如下"},{"start":2234.65,"end":2242.65,"text":"近年我國針對南海及太平島相關的議題皆秉持四點原則五項做法"},{"start":2242.65,"end":2246.65,"text":"採取穩健務實及議題導向之對外策略"},{"start":2246.65,"end":2248.65,"text":"相關的做法主要包括"},{"start":2248.65,"end":2252.65,"text":"首先就是即時重申我國立場"},{"start":2252.65,"end":2258.65,"text":"外交部針對南海情勢升高或國際社會高度關注之特定議題時"},{"start":2258.65,"end":2264.65,"text":"均在第一時間以發布聲明或新聞稿的方式對外重申我國立場"},{"start":2264.65,"end":2271.65,"text":"以外交部7月12日就南海仲裁十週年發布新聞稿重申我國立場為例"},{"start":2271.65,"end":2274.65,"text":"國內主流媒體相關報導共計30篇"},{"start":2274.65,"end":2280.65,"text":"其中部分報導經譯為英文有助於擴大我南海立場之國際能見度"},{"start":2280.65,"end":2286.65,"text":"另外近年來外交部的臉書IG、SLEITS等社群平台"},{"start":2286.65,"end":2290.65,"text":"針對相關議題供發布近20則的貼文"},{"start":2290.65,"end":2294.65,"text":"累積曝光數逾113萬次"},{"start":2294.65,"end":2302.65,"text":"各駐外館處也依照各地媒體的環境及受眾特性進行在地化傳播"},{"start":2302.65,"end":2305.65,"text":"擴大國際觸及及政策說明效果"},{"start":2306.15,"end":2312.15,"text":"第二,透過國際媒體訪團及外媒專訪說明我國立場"},{"start":2313.26,"end":2318.26,"text":"二四年迄今外交部共籌組32團國際媒體記者團"},{"start":2318.26,"end":2327.26,"text":"安排部次長接受58場國際媒體的專訪及兩場與台灣外國記者會的座談"},{"start":2327.26,"end":2331.26,"text":"向其等說明我國主權、地位及堅定的南海立場"},{"start":2332.24,"end":2338.24,"text":"第三,藉由國際場合發表我方的南海立場"},{"start":2338.24,"end":2344.24,"text":"我國亦持續藉由參與相關對話機制、國際會議、研討會及相關活動"},{"start":2344.24,"end":2348.24,"text":"說明我國對南海主導及相關海域的一貫立場"},{"start":2348.24,"end":2353.24,"text":"並視各國情勢及議題需要積極表達相關南海議題發展"},{"start":2353.24,"end":2356.24,"text":"不應排除我國權益及參與"},{"start":2356.24,"end":2358.24,"text":"塑造有我的國際情勢"},{"start":2358.78,"end":2362.78,"text":"第四,是推動功能性議題合作"},{"start":2362.78,"end":2365.78,"text":"我國長期遵循國際法及海洋法"},{"start":2365.78,"end":2367.78,"text":"並以太平島為基礎"},{"start":2367.78,"end":2374.78,"text":"在南海地區推動海事合作、生態保育、低碳發展、人道救援及科學研究"},{"start":2374.78,"end":2379.78,"text":"未來我國政府將繼續秉持各自正義、共同開發之政策"},{"start":2379.78,"end":2383.78,"text":"打造太平島成為人道救援中心及運補基地"},{"start":2383.78,"end":2386.78,"text":"堅定維護國家主權及海洋權益"},{"start":2387.67,"end":2388.67,"text":"那麼再"},{"start":2390.04,"end":2392.04,"text":"有關於周邊國家"},{"start":2392.25,"end":2395.25,"text":"擴大主權宣傳的趨勢跟挑戰"},{"start":2395.25,"end":2397.25,"text":"說明如下"},{"start":2397.25,"end":2405.25,"text":"首先是中國近年除加強宣傳其對南海諸島及相關海域的主權與海洋權益主張外"},{"start":2405.25,"end":2408.25,"text":"更不斷在南海區域大規模填海造陸"},{"start":2408.25,"end":2412.25,"text":"推動島礁軍事化並擴大軍力投射"},{"start":2412.25,"end":2419.25,"text":"更利用海警船及海上民兵進行灰色地帶騷擾及武力的脅迫"},{"start":2419.25,"end":2423.25,"text":"此種官方宣傳加上霸權擴張相互搭配的操作模式"},{"start":2423.25,"end":2425.25,"text":"升高海上衝突及誤判的風險"},{"start":2425.25,"end":2428.25,"text":"嚴重挑戰區域和平與穩定"},{"start":2428.71,"end":2430.71,"text":"另外有14國"},{"start":2432.26,"end":2437.26,"text":"針對非中南海中台安十州聯發表了聯合聲明"},{"start":2437.26,"end":2448.26,"text":"美國、菲律賓、澳洲、加拿大、愛沙尼亞、德國、義大利、日本、拉脫維亞利、台灣、紐西蘭、羅馬尼亞、斯洛維尼亞、英國等14國"},{"start":2448.93,"end":2450.93,"text":"共同發布聯合聲明"},{"start":2450.93,"end":2453.93,"text":"重申資歷維護自由開放和平穩定"},{"start":2453.93,"end":2457.93,"text":"以法治為基礎的渡太平洋地區"},{"start":2457.93,"end":2458.93,"text":"並強調海上爭端"},{"start":2459.83,"end":2462.83,"text":"因根據聯合國海洋法公約和平解決"},{"start":2462.83,"end":2468.83,"text":"2016年重裁裁決對中國與菲律賓具最終具法律約束力的效力"},{"start":2470.11,"end":2474.11,"text":"第三方面是東協的國家對南海議題的立場分歧"},{"start":2474.83,"end":2479.83,"text":"東協各國對南海仲裁的裁決、申索範圍及對中政策的立場有所差異"},{"start":2479.83,"end":2481.83,"text":"但大陸各國均主張因依"},{"start":2481.83,"end":2484.83,"text":"據國際法及聯合國海洋法公約"},{"start":2484.83,"end":2488.83,"text":"透過和平、對話、外交途徑來處理南海相關議題"},{"start":2488.83,"end":2490.83,"text":"避免身高緊張"},{"start":2490.83,"end":2493.83,"text":"這與我國遵循的四點原則高度相符"},{"start":2494.68,"end":2497.68,"text":"另外是我國面對挑戰的積極作為"},{"start":2497.68,"end":2501.68,"text":"我們將持續秉持四點原則五項做法"},{"start":2501.68,"end":2505.68,"text":"我國針對南海議題秉持這四點以下四點原則"},{"start":2505.68,"end":2514.68,"text":"並持續透過捍衛漁權、參與多邊協商、科學合作、人道救援及鼓勵海洋法研究人才"},{"start":2514.68,"end":2516.68,"text":"等五項具體的作為"},{"start":2516.68,"end":2522.68,"text":"積極與相關國家共同促進南海的穩定"},{"start":2522.68,"end":2524.68,"text":"所謂的四點原則當然包括"},{"start":2526.08,"end":2529.08,"text":"就是和平解決爭議"},{"start":2529.08,"end":2534.08,"text":"台灣不應該被排除在協商"},{"start":2534.08,"end":2535.08,"text":"另外就是我們"},{"start":2535.87,"end":2538.87,"text":"主張應該就是"},{"start":2539.35,"end":2541.35,"text":"呃"},{"start":2541.14,"end":2543.14,"text":"透過就是和平的"},{"start":2543.14,"end":2545.14,"text":"透過這"},{"start":2545.2,"end":2547.2,"text":"透過這個台灣"},{"start":2547.53,"end":2551.53,"text":"將這個發展為有關於人道救援"},{"start":2551.53,"end":2555.53,"text":"或者是海洋科技研究"},{"start":2555.53,"end":2556.53,"text":"以及呢"},{"start":2556.53,"end":2558.53,"text":"共同開發"},{"start":2558.53,"end":2560.53,"text":"就是擱置正義的立場"},{"start":2560.53,"end":2563.53,"text":"來進行對我們有關於"},{"start":2563.53,"end":2567.53,"text":"在南海這些領土領海"},{"start":2567.53,"end":2569.53,"text":"的一個權益的維護"},{"start":2569.53,"end":2573.53,"text":"那最後是我們也強化外館收報跟國際發聲的管道"},{"start":2573.53,"end":2575.53,"text":"為因應中國及周邊深所國擴大"},{"start":2575.53,"end":2578.53,"text":"南海主權與法律論述的宣傳"},{"start":2578.53,"end":2581.53,"text":"外交部將持續請相關駐外管處"},{"start":2581.53,"end":2585.53,"text":"掌握駐在國有關的南海論述"},{"start":2585.53,"end":2587.53,"text":"另外本部亦將請外館推動"},{"start":2587.53,"end":2590.53,"text":"在相關國際會議中納入台灣觀點"},{"start":2590.53,"end":2593.53,"text":"避免我國在南海區域之角色"},{"start":2593.53,"end":2595.53,"text":"及權益遭變原化"},{"start":2595.53,"end":2596.53,"text":"那"},{"start":2597.13,"end":2601.13,"text":"最後就是反對單方面破壞區域的現狀"},{"start":2601.13,"end":2604.13,"text":"外交部反對任何一方在南海採取單邊擴張主義"},{"start":2604.13,"end":2606.13,"text":"及其他破壞和平之行為"},{"start":2606.13,"end":2611.13,"text":"並呼籲相關各方恪守國際法及和平解決爭端的原則"},{"start":2611.84,"end":2612.84,"text":"最後是結語"},{"start":2612.84,"end":2614.84,"text":"作為可靠的海洋夥伴"},{"start":2614.84,"end":2617.84,"text":"我國對南海諸島主權及權力主張"},{"start":2617.84,"end":2619.84,"text":"均依循國際法及海洋法"},{"start":2619.84,"end":2625.84,"text":"未來將持續以太平島為基礎在南海地區推動海事合作"},{"start":2625.84,"end":2628.84,"text":"環境保育、人道救援及科學研究"},{"start":2628.84,"end":2631.84,"text":"與理念相近國家及區域夥伴合作"},{"start":2631.84,"end":2635.84,"text":"共同維護南海和平穩定、航行與飛躍自由"},{"start":2635.84,"end":2639.84,"text":"以及自由開放、和平與穩定的國際秩序"},{"start":2639.84,"end":2641.84,"text":"我們就請各位委員指教"},{"start":2641.84,"end":2643.84,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2649.52,"end":2652.52,"text":"我們現在開始尋訪本會委員6加2分鐘"},{"start":2652.52,"end":2656.52,"text":"非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2656.52,"end":2661.52,"text":"如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理"},{"start":2661.52,"end":2664.52,"text":"現在請陳俊宇委員上台諮詢"},{"start":2674.13,"end":2676.13,"text":"好謝謝主席,有請嘉隆部長"},{"start":2676.83,"end":2677.83,"text":"請部長"},{"start":2681.96,"end":2682.96,"text":"部長早"},{"start":2683.56,"end":2688.56,"text":"部長今天想就這個印太地區幾個議題跟部長請教"},{"start":2688.56,"end":2691.56,"text":"首先是這個南太平洋的這個八牛"},{"start":2691.56,"end":2693.56,"text":"八部牙牛脊內牙"},{"start":2693.56,"end":2698.56,"text":"他在上週7月15進行宣布關閉我們的代表處"},{"start":2698.56,"end":2702.56,"text":"那我想外交部當然不會接受八牛政府片面的這個決定"},{"start":2702.56,"end":2705.56,"text":"也會持續的來透過管道進行交涉"},{"start":2705.56,"end":2708.56,"text":"必要的時候也會採取因應的作為"},{"start":2708.56,"end":2712.56,"text":"那我們不確定這件事情在發生的這個之前"},{"start":2712.56,"end":2714.56,"text":"是否有什麼樣的一個徵兆"},{"start":2714.56,"end":2717.56,"text":"但我們往前去看近期相關的事件"},{"start":2717.56,"end":2723.56,"text":"在前一週中國有向這個南太平洋試射這個彈道飛彈"},{"start":2723.56,"end":2727.56,"text":"那澳洲跟八牛也為了共同防禦所簽署的這個條約"},{"start":2727.56,"end":2729.56,"text":"在當週生效了"},{"start":2729.56,"end":2735.56,"text":"我想這不排除有這個美國中國還有澳洲在其中角力的這個因素"},{"start":2735.56,"end":2738.56,"text":"那對於八牛這個時候才採取這樣的作為"},{"start":2738.56,"end":2741.56,"text":"我們掌握到什麼樣的一個原因"},{"start":2741.56,"end":2743.56,"text":"那目前交涉的情形是如何"},{"start":2743.56,"end":2747.56,"text":"除了檢視我們天然氣採購之外"},{"start":2747.56,"end":2751.56,"text":"會不會考慮要暫停我們國和會在八牛進行的相關計畫"},{"start":2751.56,"end":2753.56,"text":"這部分是不是請部長說明一下"},{"start":2754.6,"end":2759.6,"text":"報告委員這個事情當然其實在我當外交部長"},{"start":2759.6,"end":2763.6,"text":"我們就有接到就是八牛"},{"start":2764,"end":2768,"text":"想要就是關閉我們代表處"},{"start":2768,"end":2772,"text":"那中間也經過所謂要求改名"},{"start":2773.2,"end":2775.2,"text":"那我們也持續交涉中"},{"start":2775.2,"end":2779.2,"text":"所以他們就內閣有做出一個決定"},{"start":2779.2,"end":2785.2,"text":"就是會以兩年的時間來進行對台灣跟八牛關係的檢討"},{"start":2785.2,"end":2787.2,"text":"這是內閣會議的決議"},{"start":2787.2,"end":2789.2,"text":"那還在檢討中"},{"start":2789.2,"end":2791.2,"text":"那這個過程當然我們做過很多的努力"},{"start":2791.2,"end":2796.2,"text":"當然也讓八牛知道我們是對他們天然氣的採購大國"},{"start":2796.2,"end":2797.2,"text":"另外這個期間呢"},{"start":2797.2,"end":2803.2,"text":"因為先前有在中國在這個包括這個所謂群島"},{"start":2803.2,"end":2806.2,"text":"簽訂所謂的安全協定的這些"},{"start":2806.2,"end":2808.2,"text":"實際上是派這個軍方的人進駐"},{"start":2808.2,"end":2811.2,"text":"講安全之名在進行軍事的擴張"},{"start":2811.2,"end":2814.2,"text":"那也引起周邊國家大家的關注"},{"start":2814.2,"end":2816.2,"text":"包括澳洲"},{"start":2816.2,"end":2820.2,"text":"那這個時候呢我們當然一起跟這些友盟"},{"start":2820.2,"end":2821.2,"text":"就持續在協調"},{"start":2821.2,"end":2824.2,"text":"包括我們參加太平洋島國論壇"},{"start":2824.2,"end":2827.2,"text":"去年就是這些所謂的發展夥伴"},{"start":2827.2,"end":2830.2,"text":"都被這個"},{"start":2831.61,"end":2833.61,"text":"那這個情勢就是說"},{"start":2833.61,"end":2836.61,"text":"在八牛方面是這個外交部長"},{"start":2836.61,"end":2837.61,"text":"做我們的了解"},{"start":2837.61,"end":2839.61,"text":"他個人以突擊的方式"},{"start":2839.61,"end":2843.61,"text":"雖然這個是有一個不斷在交涉中"},{"start":2843.61,"end":2845.61,"text":"那他個人的利益"},{"start":2845.61,"end":2847.61,"text":"這事實上我們了解他們內閣"},{"start":2847.61,"end":2851.61,"text":"其實他們專業的外交官是有不同的意見"},{"start":2851.61,"end":2853.61,"text":"那這些周邊的友盟"},{"start":2853.61,"end":2856.61,"text":"也都表達持續的在表達關切"},{"start":2856.61,"end":2858.61,"text":"那所以這個事情我們當然第一時間"},{"start":2858.61,"end":2860.61,"text":"就是我們就進行交涉"},{"start":2860.61,"end":2864.61,"text":"那也跟友盟來進行溝通"},{"start":2864.61,"end":2866.61,"text":"尋求他們的聲援"},{"start":2866.61,"end":2868.61,"text":"美國的國務院也公開的表達"},{"start":2868.61,"end":2870.61,"text":"對這個事情的關切"},{"start":2870.61,"end":2873.61,"text":"也認為這個是對於就是說台灣"},{"start":2873.61,"end":2876.61,"text":"就是跟這全球夥伴"},{"start":2876.61,"end":2879.61,"text":"這個發展關係的再一次的"},{"start":2880.12,"end":2886.12,"text":"這一種就是破壞的行為的例證"},{"start":2886.12,"end":2889.12,"text":"那我們爭取時間持續交涉"},{"start":2889.12,"end":2894.12,"text":"那當然也在檢討跟八牛的各方的關係"},{"start":2894.12,"end":2896.12,"text":"那我們希望有一段時間"},{"start":2896.12,"end":2900.12,"text":"可以讓這個事情進一步"},{"start":2900.12,"end":2904.12,"text":"有一些可以轉環的空間"},{"start":2904.12,"end":2908.12,"text":"好那除了這個八牛的案例以外"},{"start":2908.12,"end":2910.12,"text":"我們有沒有注意到接下來"},{"start":2910.12,"end":2912.12,"text":"中共會不會持續在南太平洋"},{"start":2912.12,"end":2914.12,"text":"尋求相關的突破"},{"start":2914.12,"end":2917.12,"text":"透過這個個別國家進行施壓"},{"start":2917.12,"end":2920.12,"text":"那要求他們要重申一中原則"},{"start":2920.12,"end":2923.12,"text":"並且向這個相關的國家"},{"start":2923.12,"end":2927.12,"text":"來這個進行不同的一個突破"},{"start":2927.12,"end":2932.12,"text":"那我們了解中國一向在南太平洋的擴張企圖"},{"start":2932.12,"end":2934.12,"text":"剛剛部長您在報告當中"},{"start":2934.12,"end":2936.12,"text":"也有大概說明了一下"},{"start":2936.12,"end":2939.12,"text":"那八牛宣布關閉我們外館前一天"},{"start":2939.12,"end":2941.12,"text":"中國也跟"},{"start":2940.96,"end":2943.96,"text":"這個索羅門群島的外長有進行會談"},{"start":2943.96,"end":2945.96,"text":"那中方也承諾要推動"},{"start":2945.96,"end":2949.96,"text":"中索新時代全面戰略夥伴關係"},{"start":2949.96,"end":2951.96,"text":"但是我們從六月份的這個資料來看"},{"start":2951.96,"end":2953.96,"text":"索羅門新任的總理要求"},{"start":2953.96,"end":2956.96,"text":"重新審視對中國的這個密約"},{"start":2956.96,"end":2959.96,"text":"也在倡議向太平洋區域安全條例"},{"start":2959.96,"end":2962.96,"text":"要排除中國介入"},{"start":2962.96,"end":2967.96,"text":"甚至近期還將允諾美國這個海巡隊能夠巡邏"},{"start":2967.96,"end":2970.96,"text":"這顯示中美澳仍然在這個南太平洋"},{"start":2970.96,"end":2972.96,"text":"戰略上的一個競爭關係"},{"start":2972.96,"end":2974.96,"text":"那就這個部分"},{"start":2974.96,"end":2975.96,"text":"部長您觀察和評估"},{"start":2975.96,"end":2977.96,"text":"太平洋島國對中國的立場"},{"start":2977.96,"end":2979.96,"text":"政策有沒有什麼樣的一個轉變"},{"start":2979.96,"end":2983.96,"text":"那中國是否還會有這種類似的模式"},{"start":2983.96,"end":2986.96,"text":"單點突破甚至影響整個區域的可能"},{"start":2987.29,"end":2989.29,"text":"其實中國的模式就是"},{"start":2989.29,"end":2992.29,"text":"透過所謂的精英服務"},{"start":2992.29,"end":2995.29,"text":"針對少數的領導人的控制"},{"start":2995.29,"end":2999.29,"text":"給他利益或者是包括造成國家債務"},{"start":2999.29,"end":3003.29,"text":"去控制這些島國"},{"start":3003.29,"end":3006.29,"text":"那過去我們比較相對來講"},{"start":3006.29,"end":3008.29,"text":"我們是孤軍奮戰"},{"start":3008.29,"end":3011.29,"text":"那最近是 我講國際裡我們都看到"},{"start":3011.29,"end":3013.29,"text":"中國這些擴張的行為"},{"start":3013.29,"end":3014.29,"text":"不是只有針對台灣"},{"start":3014.29,"end":3016.29,"text":"比如說他這個淺色導彈"},{"start":3016.29,"end":3020.29,"text":"在打到西太平洋跟南太平洋"},{"start":3020.29,"end":3022.29,"text":"然後他的這個航母軍艦"},{"start":3022.29,"end":3026.29,"text":"其實都在這些附近的海域出入"},{"start":3026.29,"end":3029.29,"text":"另外就是透過這些投資"},{"start":3029.29,"end":3031.29,"text":"事實上在控制他們的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":3031.29,"end":3032.29,"text":"包括港口"},{"start":3032.29,"end":3035.29,"text":"跟這些所謂的關鍵的礦物"},{"start":3035.29,"end":3037.29,"text":"所以這個已經威脅到"},{"start":3037.29,"end":3039.29,"text":"以規則為基礎的國際秩序"},{"start":3039.29,"end":3042.29,"text":"特別是太平洋是強調一個包容性"},{"start":3042.29,"end":3044.29,"text":"而且中共不斷的製造分裂"},{"start":3044.29,"end":3046.29,"text":"比如說去年的太平洋島國論壇"},{"start":3046.29,"end":3050.29,"text":"中國就自己先邀請了一些國家的外交部長"},{"start":3050.29,"end":3052.29,"text":"企圖先去主導"},{"start":3052.29,"end":3054.29,"text":"這個佩服太平洋島國論壇的召開"},{"start":3054.29,"end":3056.29,"text":"甚至把包括台灣"},{"start":3056.29,"end":3058.29,"text":"美國日本都排除在"},{"start":3058.29,"end":3063.29,"text":"太平洋島國的這個夥伴會議之外"},{"start":3063.29,"end":3066.29,"text":"所以當這個中共侵入的時候"},{"start":3066.29,"end":3067.29,"text":"就控制那個國家"},{"start":3067.29,"end":3069.29,"text":"所以包括像我剛剛講的安全協定"},{"start":3069.29,"end":3071.29,"text":"它在這個"},{"start":3072.55,"end":3075.55,"text":"這個所謂群島這個作為就引起了"},{"start":3075.55,"end":3078.55,"text":"當然包括美澳等國家對於八牛"},{"start":3078.55,"end":3081.55,"text":"當時中國也要跟它簽訂類似的安全協定"},{"start":3081.55,"end":3083.55,"text":"所以這些國家就積極的"},{"start":3083.55,"end":3085.55,"text":"來跟這些國家往來"},{"start":3085.55,"end":3087.55,"text":"包括最近在跨德"},{"start":3087.55,"end":3090.55,"text":"就是在四國在斐濟"},{"start":3090.55,"end":3092.55,"text":"要建造港口"},{"start":3092.55,"end":3093.55,"text":"以及在帛琉"},{"start":3093.55,"end":3095.55,"text":"他國家醫院要簽件"},{"start":3095.55,"end":3097.55,"text":"也都尋求跨國的支持"},{"start":3097.55,"end":3099.55,"text":"那台灣也有參與期間"},{"start":3099.55,"end":3102.55,"text":"這個所以我們用這種小多邊的方式"},{"start":3102.55,"end":3104.55,"text":"共同來維護"},{"start":3104.55,"end":3109.55,"text":"以這個所謂的和平的太平洋"},{"start":3109.55,"end":3111.55,"text":"這個所謂的藍色的太平洋"},{"start":3111.55,"end":3115.55,"text":"這樣一個包容性的一個區域的一個秩序"},{"start":3116.42,"end":3118.42,"text":"好 那接下來8月底"},{"start":3118.42,"end":3120.42,"text":"剛剛部長您也提到了"},{"start":3120.42,"end":3122.42,"text":"我們的友邦帛琉將主辦"},{"start":3122.42,"end":3127.42,"text":"今年的這個PIF的這個論壇峰會"},{"start":3127.42,"end":3130.42,"text":"那這部分我們想進一步了解就是"},{"start":3130.42,"end":3132.42,"text":"這是一個很好的機會"},{"start":3132.42,"end":3135.42,"text":"也是我們台灣跟其他友盟國家"},{"start":3135.42,"end":3137.42,"text":"可以在這個國際場合"},{"start":3137.42,"end":3142.42,"text":"這個參與合作的一個很好的機會"},{"start":3142.42,"end":3143.42,"text":"那這部分我想請教部長"},{"start":3143.42,"end":3147.42,"text":"對於參與今年的這個PIF的這個規劃"},{"start":3147.42,"end":3149.42,"text":"我們目前情況是如何"},{"start":3149.42,"end":3151.42,"text":"那未來有沒有可能"},{"start":3151.42,"end":3154.42,"text":"有更大的一個這個參與"},{"start":3154.42,"end":3157.42,"text":"太平洋地區的一個機會有沒有"},{"start":3157.42,"end":3160.42,"text":"是 我們對今年PIF在帛琉召開"},{"start":3160.42,"end":3162.42,"text":"因為是我們的邦交國"},{"start":3162.42,"end":3165.42,"text":"所以我們以發展夥伴身分參與"},{"start":3165.42,"end":3167.42,"text":"那也在辦一個展"},{"start":3167.42,"end":3169.42,"text":"就是龍邦的這個特展"},{"start":3169.42,"end":3170.42,"text":"那不只台灣"},{"start":3170.42,"end":3173.42,"text":"當然包括像美國日本澳洲"},{"start":3173.42,"end":3175.42,"text":"他們在太平洋所做的"},{"start":3175.42,"end":3177.42,"text":"這些對於太平洋發展有利的"},{"start":3177.42,"end":3181.42,"text":"這些不管是援助投資"},{"start":3181.42,"end":3183.42,"text":"或是各項的合作"},{"start":3183.42,"end":3185.42,"text":"我們用這種正向的方式來呈現"},{"start":3185.42,"end":3187.42,"text":"那台灣可以幫助"},{"start":3187.42,"end":3190.42,"text":"那這個是這個當然這個模式"},{"start":3190.42,"end":3192.42,"text":"我們希望因為明年是在紐西蘭"},{"start":3192.42,"end":3194.42,"text":"能夠持續持續下去"},{"start":3194.42,"end":3195.42,"text":"以正向的方式"},{"start":3195.42,"end":3197.42,"text":"那有一些共同的倡議"},{"start":3197.42,"end":3200.42,"text":"我想包括我剛剛提到的這個斐濟"},{"start":3200.42,"end":3202.42,"text":"或是帛琉的例子"},{"start":3202.42,"end":3205.42,"text":"包括在土華路這個海覽的延伸"},{"start":3205.42,"end":3207.42,"text":"還有其他的地方我們的技術團"},{"start":3207.42,"end":3209.42,"text":"所以我們的醫療教育"},{"start":3209.42,"end":3211.42,"text":"還有包括桂林能源"},{"start":3211.42,"end":3213.42,"text":"所以這一次用這個所謂龍邦"},{"start":3213.42,"end":3215.42,"text":"特展的方式來呈現"},{"start":3215.42,"end":3218.42,"text":"另外我們也會透過各種雙邊的會議"},{"start":3218.42,"end":3219.42,"text":"來進行"},{"start":3219.42,"end":3221.42,"text":"這個是PIF對我們來講"},{"start":3221.42,"end":3223.42,"text":"是在參與太平洋事務"},{"start":3223.42,"end":3225.42,"text":"是可以說最重要的國際組織"},{"start":3225.42,"end":3227.42,"text":"那這次的峰會有沒有可能"},{"start":3227.42,"end":3229.42,"text":"會是部長您率團參與"},{"start":3229.42,"end":3231.42,"text":"因為這時候涉及到一些"},{"start":3231.42,"end":3233.42,"text":"我們跟中共在這方面"},{"start":3233.42,"end":3235.42,"text":"因為他是緊迫盯人"},{"start":3235.42,"end":3237.42,"text":"已經在施壓"},{"start":3237.42,"end":3239.42,"text":"所以我們的安排"},{"start":3239.42,"end":3241.42,"text":"我們就目前就沒有對外說明"},{"start":3241.42,"end":3243.42,"text":"等到這個大會期間"},{"start":3243.42,"end":3245.42,"text":"自然就會呈現"},{"start":3245.42,"end":3246.42,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3246.42,"end":3247.42,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":3247.42,"end":3248.42,"text":"以上"},{"start":3248.42,"end":3249.42,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3253.31,"end":3256.31,"text":"好 接下來我們請羅美玲委員上台諮詢"},{"start":3263.27,"end":3264.27,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3264.27,"end":3266.27,"text":"有請外交部林佳龍部長"},{"start":3266.27,"end":3267.27,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":3274.37,"end":3275.37,"text":"部長早"},{"start":3275.37,"end":3276.37,"text":"委員早"},{"start":3276.37,"end":3277.37,"text":"是 部長"},{"start":3277.37,"end":3279.37,"text":"南海仲裁案已經10週年了"},{"start":3279.37,"end":3282.37,"text":"那我們看到南海局勢的議題"},{"start":3282.37,"end":3284.37,"text":"現在已經再度成為"},{"start":3284.37,"end":3287.37,"text":"國際社會很關注的焦點"},{"start":3287.37,"end":3289.37,"text":"像美國 菲律賓等14個國家"},{"start":3289.37,"end":3291.37,"text":"也共同發表了聯合聲明"},{"start":3291.37,"end":3294.37,"text":"重申聯合國海洋法公約"},{"start":3294.37,"end":3297.37,"text":"及2016年的南海仲裁裁決"},{"start":3297.37,"end":3299.37,"text":"具有法律的拘束力"},{"start":3299.37,"end":3302.37,"text":"當然我有看到我們的報告"},{"start":3302.37,"end":3306.37,"text":"在第一時間也發布了聲明"},{"start":3306.37,"end":3309.37,"text":"然後用新聞稿或新聞說明會的形式"},{"start":3309.37,"end":3311.37,"text":"對外重申我國的立場"},{"start":3311.37,"end":3313.37,"text":"甚至相關的議題"},{"start":3313.37,"end":3315.37,"text":"我們外交部的臉書"},{"start":3315.37,"end":3317.37,"text":"IG或Trust等社群平台"},{"start":3317.37,"end":3319.37,"text":"都有來做貼文"},{"start":3319.37,"end":3321.37,"text":"甚至透過國際媒體的訪團"},{"start":3321.37,"end":3324.37,"text":"來說明我國的立場"},{"start":3324.37,"end":3326.37,"text":"中國的外交部"},{"start":3326.37,"end":3330.37,"text":"除了連續發布正式聲明之外"},{"start":3330.37,"end":3332.37,"text":"更是同步推出了"},{"start":3332.37,"end":3335.37,"text":"中英文雙語宣傳的影片"},{"start":3335.37,"end":3337.37,"text":"南海停跑"},{"start":3337.37,"end":3339.37,"text":"來做大力的放送"},{"start":3339.37,"end":3341.37,"text":"比如說他們透過"},{"start":3341.37,"end":3343.37,"text":"歷史文獻 古蹟石料"},{"start":3343.37,"end":3345.37,"text":"島礁石井畫面"},{"start":3345.37,"end":3346.37,"text":"還有這個英文字幕"},{"start":3346.37,"end":3348.37,"text":"向全球宣傳"},{"start":3348.37,"end":3351.37,"text":"中國對南海諸島跟周邊海域"},{"start":3351.37,"end":3354.37,"text":"它是擁有無可爭辯的主權"},{"start":3354.37,"end":3357.37,"text":"試圖直接向國際社會建構"},{"start":3357.37,"end":3358.37,"text":"中國版本的歷史"},{"start":3358.37,"end":3360.37,"text":"跟法律的敘事"},{"start":3360.37,"end":3362.37,"text":"其實中國對於國際"},{"start":3363.66,"end":3367.66,"text":"國際的這個宣傳的這個手法"},{"start":3367.66,"end":3370.66,"text":"一向以來都是大手筆的"},{"start":3370.66,"end":3371.66,"text":"我們看中國"},{"start":3371.66,"end":3373.66,"text":"中國每一年花費多少錢"},{"start":3373.66,"end":3375.66,"text":"在這個大外宣"},{"start":3375.66,"end":3377.66,"text":"那根據這個國際媒體"},{"start":3377.66,"end":3379.66,"text":"跟研究機構的這個分析"},{"start":3379.66,"end":3382.66,"text":"中國每一年投入全球對外宣傳的經費"},{"start":3382.66,"end":3385.66,"text":"是高達70到100億美元"},{"start":3385.66,"end":3387.66,"text":"折合新台幣大概是"},{"start":3387.66,"end":3391.66,"text":"2240億到3200億之間"},{"start":3391.66,"end":3392.66,"text":"那中國官媒"},{"start":3392.66,"end":3394.66,"text":"它會製作多語言的語音"},{"start":3394.66,"end":3396.66,"text":"陸陸續續向美國啦"},{"start":3396.66,"end":3398.66,"text":"歐洲或是亞太地區"},{"start":3398.66,"end":3399.66,"text":"20幾個主流媒體"},{"start":3399.66,"end":3400.66,"text":"購買這個廣告的版面"},{"start":3400.66,"end":3402.66,"text":"我們看看關是中國官媒"},{"start":3402.66,"end":3403.66,"text":"中國日報"},{"start":3403.66,"end":3405.66,"text":"在2016年到2020年間"},{"start":3405.66,"end":3406.66,"text":"向美國的媒體"},{"start":3406.66,"end":3407.66,"text":"一些特定的媒體"},{"start":3408.88,"end":3409.88,"text":"支付的這個廣告"},{"start":3409.88,"end":3410.88,"text":"跟印刷費用是"},{"start":3410.88,"end":3412.88,"text":"就高達了1900萬美元"},{"start":3414.6,"end":3416.6,"text":"那更何況還有歐洲還有亞太地區"},{"start":3416.6,"end":3418.6,"text":"那當然它就是要"},{"start":3418.6,"end":3419.6,"text":"試圖提升"},{"start":3419.6,"end":3422.6,"text":"中國在國際社會的這個話語權"},{"start":3422.6,"end":3425.6,"text":"可是反觀我們台灣"},{"start":3425.6,"end":3428.6,"text":"台灣因為特殊的這個國際處境"},{"start":3428.6,"end":3430.6,"text":"所以沒有辦法在"},{"start":3430.6,"end":3431.6,"text":"像一般的國家"},{"start":3431.6,"end":3432.6,"text":"我們在聯合國"},{"start":3432.6,"end":3435.6,"text":"或者是正式的國際組織呢"},{"start":3435.6,"end":3438.6,"text":"來充分充分的來做發聲"},{"start":3438.6,"end":3440.6,"text":"所以我們更需要仰賴"},{"start":3440.6,"end":3443.6,"text":"這個公共外交或是國際的媒體"},{"start":3443.6,"end":3445.6,"text":"或是多語言的文宣"},{"start":3445.6,"end":3448.6,"text":"甚至這個影音向世界"},{"start":3448.6,"end":3450.6,"text":"來表達台灣的立場"},{"start":3450.6,"end":3452.6,"text":"然後來提升國際社會"},{"start":3452.6,"end":3455.6,"text":"對台灣的認同理解跟這個支持"},{"start":3455.6,"end":3457.6,"text":"可是很可惜我們看"},{"start":3459.19,"end":3461.19,"text":"我們外交部的這個"},{"start":3461.19,"end":3462.19,"text":"媒宣費"},{"start":3462.19,"end":3466.19,"text":"114年我們本來編列了"},{"start":3466.19,"end":3470.19,"text":"一億一千多萬的這個預算"},{"start":3470.19,"end":3473.19,"text":"全數被在野黨剪裂"},{"start":3473.19,"end":3474.19,"text":"那最後呢是"},{"start":3474.19,"end":3480.19,"text":"用最佳預算的方式補回了2760萬"},{"start":3480.19,"end":3482.19,"text":"然後今年115年呢"},{"start":3482.19,"end":3483.19,"text":"我們外交部也編列了"},{"start":3483.19,"end":3484.19,"text":"一億三千多萬"},{"start":3484.19,"end":3485.19,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":3485.19,"end":3487.19,"text":"也被剪裂了一億多"},{"start":3487.19,"end":3488.19,"text":"然後呢就是說"},{"start":3488.19,"end":3492.19,"text":"你們用2760萬也能夠維持這個宣傳嗎"},{"start":3492.19,"end":3494.19,"text":"所以呢剪裂之後呢"},{"start":3494.19,"end":3496.19,"text":"就是目前我想還要協商嘛"},{"start":3496.19,"end":3498.19,"text":"這部分還要協商"},{"start":3498.19,"end":3499.19,"text":"我不曉得到最後"},{"start":3499.19,"end":3500.19,"text":"我不曉得有沒有協商"},{"start":3500.19,"end":3501.19,"text":"就是還是直接剪裂了"},{"start":3501.19,"end":3502.19,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":3503.33,"end":3505.33,"text":"然後是我們就在想說"},{"start":3505.58,"end":3509.58,"text":"那我們要如何去向國際來做發聲"},{"start":3509.58,"end":3512.58,"text":"那中國不斷地提升自己的媒宣費"},{"start":3512.58,"end":3513.58,"text":"可是我們國內的"},{"start":3513.58,"end":3515.58,"text":"在野黨的立法委員"},{"start":3515.58,"end":3517.58,"text":"國會議員卻直接刪除"},{"start":3517.58,"end":3519.58,"text":"所以變成是說兩國之間"},{"start":3519.58,"end":3521.58,"text":"在對外的這個發聲"},{"start":3521.58,"end":3523.58,"text":"其實有很大的這個落差"},{"start":3523.58,"end":3524.58,"text":"那面對"},{"start":3524.58,"end":3526.58,"text":"所以我想請教部長"},{"start":3526.58,"end":3527.58,"text":"像去年被全數刪除"},{"start":3527.58,"end":3529.58,"text":"今年又被剪裂這麼多"},{"start":3529.58,"end":3532.58,"text":"那我們目前在國際發聲方面"},{"start":3532.58,"end":3533.58,"text":"到底面臨了怎麼樣的困境"},{"start":3533.58,"end":3534.58,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":3535.58,"end":3536.58,"text":"謝謝委員的關心跟支持"},{"start":3536.58,"end":3539.58,"text":"因為其實外交是沒有煙消的轉針"},{"start":3539.58,"end":3541.58,"text":"是24小時全國都"},{"start":3541.58,"end":3542.58,"text":"全世界啦"},{"start":3542.58,"end":3544.58,"text":"其實都在"},{"start":3544.58,"end":3546.58,"text":"我們都面對到中國的擴張"},{"start":3546.58,"end":3549.58,"text":"它其實在外交領域上的影響越來越大"},{"start":3549.58,"end":3551.58,"text":"那國際的媒宣"},{"start":3551.58,"end":3553.58,"text":"其實相對來講"},{"start":3553.58,"end":3556.58,"text":"其實我們的占比或數量都是很少的"},{"start":3556.58,"end":3558.58,"text":"所以我們希望能夠全數保留"},{"start":3558.58,"end":3560.58,"text":"那在這個政黨協商的時候"},{"start":3560.58,"end":3561.58,"text":"因為我也感謝"},{"start":3561.58,"end":3563.58,"text":"我們外交國防委員會已經很支持啦"},{"start":3563.58,"end":3565.58,"text":"也小刪了一些"},{"start":3565.58,"end":3568.58,"text":"大部分都送到了這個朝野協商跟院會"},{"start":3568.58,"end":3570.58,"text":"真的"},{"start":3570.58,"end":3572.58,"text":"我們不能變成啞巴啦"},{"start":3572.58,"end":3573.58,"text":"在國際上"},{"start":3573.58,"end":3574.58,"text":"因為我們要我們自己的聲音"},{"start":3574.58,"end":3577.58,"text":"這是涉及到台灣我想中華民國"},{"start":3577.58,"end":3579.58,"text":"我們全體的利益"},{"start":3579.58,"end":3581.58,"text":"這個對外我想大家如果能夠支持"},{"start":3581.58,"end":3582.58,"text":"外交部"},{"start":3582.58,"end":3584.58,"text":"我們一定不會介入"},{"start":3584.58,"end":3586.58,"text":"任何什麼黨派的宣傳"},{"start":3586.58,"end":3587.58,"text":"我想對國內來講"},{"start":3587.58,"end":3588.58,"text":"大家會關心說"},{"start":3588.58,"end":3591.58,"text":"這些媒宣是不是有什麼黨派的立場"},{"start":3591.58,"end":3593.58,"text":"在外交上面我們都是秉持"},{"start":3593.58,"end":3596.58,"text":"就像跟我們委員會報告的內容一樣"},{"start":3596.58,"end":3600.58,"text":"是站在我們這個中華民國台灣整體的利益"},{"start":3600.58,"end":3602.58,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":3602.58,"end":3604.58,"text":"我們希望能夠在朝野協商的時候"},{"start":3604.58,"end":3606.58,"text":"不要被統刪"},{"start":3606.58,"end":3608.58,"text":"能夠保留下來"},{"start":3608.58,"end":3612.58,"text":"我們也會善用這樣的一個有限的媒宣費"},{"start":3614.05,"end":3618.05,"text":"對因為像中國他長年將這個國際宣傳"},{"start":3618.05,"end":3620.05,"text":"列為國家戰略很重要的一部分"},{"start":3620.05,"end":3622.05,"text":"像北約也是一樣"},{"start":3622.05,"end":3627.05,"text":"他已經將戰略傳播正式納入到國家安全的架構裡面"},{"start":3627.05,"end":3629.05,"text":"歐美國家也是逐漸將戰略傳播"},{"start":3629.05,"end":3633.05,"text":"視為這個外交戰略很重要的組成"},{"start":3633.05,"end":3635.05,"text":"那劍橋大學我之前看過他的研究報告"},{"start":3635.05,"end":3638.05,"text":"他就說台灣最大的挑戰並不是說"},{"start":3638.05,"end":3640.05,"text":"我們沒有民主我們沒有人權"},{"start":3640.05,"end":3643.05,"text":"或是說科技方面的軟實力"},{"start":3643.05,"end":3644.05,"text":"我們都有這些"},{"start":3644.05,"end":3648.05,"text":"可是呢因為我們在這個國際處境的這個"},{"start":3648.05,"end":3650.05,"text":"這個處境本來就很困難"},{"start":3650.05,"end":3653.05,"text":"可是再加上傳播不足"},{"start":3653.05,"end":3655.05,"text":"就是我們剛才所提到的"},{"start":3655.05,"end":3658.05,"text":"不足我們這個媒宣費還要被大幅的刪減"},{"start":3658.05,"end":3661.05,"text":"所以這個部分我們到底要如何來做發聲"},{"start":3661.05,"end":3664.05,"text":"所以我這這部分我很希望就是說"},{"start":3664.05,"end":3666.05,"text":"在野黨委員能夠理解台灣的處境"},{"start":3666.05,"end":3668.05,"text":"真的是很不容易"},{"start":3668.05,"end":3671.05,"text":"所以不是說所謂大內宣什麼"},{"start":3671.05,"end":3674.05,"text":"像大外宣這部分我們也做不到"},{"start":3674.05,"end":3677.05,"text":"你看看那個中國他的這個媒宣費"},{"start":3677.05,"end":3680.05,"text":"一年一年高達這麼高的金額"},{"start":3680.05,"end":3682.05,"text":"我們沒有辦法跟人家比"},{"start":3682.05,"end":3683.05,"text":"那還要被刪除這個預算"},{"start":3683.05,"end":3684.05,"text":"就像部長剛才所講的"},{"start":3684.05,"end":3686.05,"text":"其實這個預算其實真的是很少"},{"start":3686.05,"end":3688.05,"text":"我再跟委員報告"},{"start":3688.05,"end":3690.05,"text":"其實對中共的了解"},{"start":3690.05,"end":3692.05,"text":"他一方面是當然槍桿子出政權"},{"start":3692.05,"end":3694.05,"text":"可是他更有名的一句話是"},{"start":3694.05,"end":3696.05,"text":"謊話說一百遍就會變成真的"},{"start":3696.05,"end":3699.05,"text":"所以其實他現在在國際的法律戰"},{"start":3699.05,"end":3701.05,"text":"其實都是用宣傳做基礎"},{"start":3701.05,"end":3704.05,"text":"那時候法律是以武力為後盾"},{"start":3704.05,"end":3706.05,"text":"所以他不斷的所謂的法律戰"},{"start":3706.05,"end":3708.05,"text":"其實是在鋪陳武力"},{"start":3708.05,"end":3710.05,"text":"包括對台灣的侵略"},{"start":3710.05,"end":3713.05,"text":"或對於像這些周邊這個海洋"},{"start":3713.05,"end":3718.05,"text":"這些島礁的這個爭奪"},{"start":3718.05,"end":3721.05,"text":"所以我們我們如果能夠發聲"},{"start":3721.05,"end":3722.05,"text":"當然"},{"start":3723.2,"end":3725.2,"text":"對對方來講沒有辦法用這些"},{"start":3725.2,"end":3727.2,"text":"所謂的宣傳戰做基礎"},{"start":3727.2,"end":3729.2,"text":"去行使武力的脅迫"},{"start":3729.2,"end":3731.2,"text":"這個其實是"},{"start":3733.49,"end":3735.49,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":3735.49,"end":3736.49,"text":"其實外交"},{"start":3736.49,"end":3738.49,"text":"中國一切的對外的資源"},{"start":3738.49,"end":3740.49,"text":"都拿來做外交"},{"start":3740.49,"end":3742.49,"text":"不告一帶一帶一路或者是所有"},{"start":3742.49,"end":3744.49,"text":"其實他的整個"},{"start":3744.49,"end":3747.49,"text":"是在國際上是以大國的這種"},{"start":3747.49,"end":3749.49,"text":"這種這種地位"},{"start":3749.49,"end":3750.49,"text":"在脅迫"},{"start":3750.49,"end":3752.49,"text":"所以你看看到很多的聲明"},{"start":3752.49,"end":3753.49,"text":"不斷被扭曲"},{"start":3753.49,"end":3755.49,"text":"尤其在全球南方"},{"start":3755.49,"end":3757.49,"text":"像這一個所謂的2758號"},{"start":3757.49,"end":3758.49,"text":"這個聯合國的解釋"},{"start":3758.49,"end":3759.49,"text":"我們如果不發聲的話"},{"start":3759.49,"end":3762.49,"text":"會變成做實他一個中國原則"},{"start":3762.49,"end":3765.49,"text":"而當台灣是中華人民國一部分"},{"start":3765.49,"end":3767.49,"text":"而這一些國家有一些全球南方"},{"start":3767.49,"end":3770.49,"text":"又支持中國以不擇手段"},{"start":3770.49,"end":3772.49,"text":"就是統一台灣"},{"start":3772.49,"end":3773.49,"text":"這包括武力"},{"start":3773.49,"end":3776.49,"text":"所以最近你可以看到在中國周邊國家"},{"start":3776.49,"end":3778.49,"text":"其實很多國家都不是自願的"},{"start":3778.49,"end":3780.49,"text":"但是被迫要發表一些共同聲明"},{"start":3781.5,"end":3783.5,"text":"那這個就是宣傳戰"},{"start":3783.44,"end":3784.44,"text":"這個就是在"},{"start":3784.91,"end":3787.91,"text":"以法律為基礎在進行其實是武力的"},{"start":3787.91,"end":3789.91,"text":"侵略的準備"},{"start":3789.91,"end":3792.91,"text":"所以我也想說讓我們國人也夠了解"},{"start":3792.91,"end":3794.91,"text":"為什麼這一億多這麼重要"},{"start":3794.91,"end":3797.91,"text":"事實上相對於真的我們國家的總預算"},{"start":3797.91,"end":3800.91,"text":"或是說我們整體這個外交的預算"},{"start":3800.91,"end":3802.91,"text":"都是比較有限的"},{"start":3803.49,"end":3807.49,"text":"再來還有我想這個中國所使用的資訊戰"},{"start":3807.49,"end":3809.49,"text":"應該也是來自於他的宣傳費"},{"start":3809.49,"end":3811.49,"text":"比如說對我們台灣"},{"start":3811.49,"end":3813.49,"text":"比如說我們知道有很多不實的"},{"start":3813.49,"end":3816.49,"text":"謠言資訊是來自於中國的"},{"start":3816.49,"end":3817.49,"text":"像這個應該也是"},{"start":3817.49,"end":3819.49,"text":"我跟委員也回應一下"},{"start":3819.49,"end":3821.49,"text":"其實中共的三戰是法律戰"},{"start":3821.49,"end":3823.49,"text":"輿論戰跟心理戰"},{"start":3823.49,"end":3824.49,"text":"他這種混合戰"},{"start":3824.49,"end":3826.49,"text":"他還不是以軍事這些威脅"},{"start":3826.49,"end":3828.49,"text":"當然這些部份他投入的資源"},{"start":3828.49,"end":3830.49,"text":"其實在建構一個所謂認知作戰"},{"start":3830.49,"end":3832.49,"text":"所以這個戰場已經變成"},{"start":3832.49,"end":3834.49,"text":"我們講什麼Cyberspace"},{"start":3834.49,"end":3837.49,"text":"是一個在於網路空間"},{"start":3837.49,"end":3840.49,"text":"認知空間的作戰"},{"start":3840.49,"end":3843.49,"text":"這個我想宣傳是非常重要"},{"start":3844.29,"end":3846.29,"text":"對 所以台灣的媒宣費也是非常的重要"},{"start":3846.29,"end":3850.29,"text":"我們如何要去反制他的這些不實的這個資訊戰"},{"start":3850.29,"end":3851.29,"text":"我想這部份的話"},{"start":3851.29,"end":3853.29,"text":"應該要讓國人來清楚的來了解"},{"start":3853.29,"end":3854.29,"text":"好 以上謝謝"},{"start":3854.29,"end":3856.29,"text":"好 那拜託各位 謝謝"},{"start":3859.06,"end":3860.06,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":3860.06,"end":3863.06,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員上台諮詢"},{"start":3872.19,"end":3875.19,"text":"主席有請外交部林部長"},{"start":3875.19,"end":3876.19,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":3883.1,"end":3884.1,"text":"部長早安"},{"start":3884.1,"end":3885.1,"text":"委員早"},{"start":3885.1,"end":3889.1,"text":"是 我們昨天也把部裡今天您"},{"start":3889.09,"end":3890.09,"text":"要報告的內容"},{"start":3890.09,"end":3892.09,"text":"我們也先做了一些study"},{"start":3892.09,"end":3895.09,"text":"那麼根據這裡面我們做出一些建言"},{"start":3895.09,"end":3898.09,"text":"那後面因為剛剛部長也講了"},{"start":3898.09,"end":3900.09,"text":"中國大陸現在對國際上面他的三戰"},{"start":3901.02,"end":3904.02,"text":"這個Legal warfare, psychological warfare, media warfare"},{"start":3904.02,"end":3905.02,"text":"是同步產生"},{"start":3905.02,"end":3908.02,"text":"那在這裡面所以我們平常聽到"},{"start":3909.01,"end":3910.01,"text":"有這個"},{"start":3910.98,"end":3912.98,"text":"叫做misinformation"},{"start":3912.98,"end":3913.98,"text":"可能我是好意"},{"start":3913.98,"end":3916.98,"text":"但是中間誤導了幾個資訊"},{"start":3916.98,"end":3917.98,"text":"就傳給人家"},{"start":3917.98,"end":3920.98,"text":"後面就變成disinformation"},{"start":3920.98,"end":3921.98,"text":"然後產生了fake news"},{"start":3921.98,"end":3923.98,"text":"最後就你講的認知作戰"},{"start":3923.98,"end":3925.98,"text":"cognitive warfare"},{"start":3925.98,"end":3927.98,"text":"所以我們很多的情況下"},{"start":3927.98,"end":3930.98,"text":"國內的同仁或者一般的社會媒體"},{"start":3930.98,"end":3933.98,"text":"我們看到的並不是一個完整的透明現象"},{"start":3933.98,"end":3935.98,"text":"那在這種情況下呢"},{"start":3938.09,"end":3940.09,"text":"我們常常提到國際法"},{"start":3940.09,"end":3945.09,"text":"中國大陸很會利用我們剛剛講的灰色地帶"},{"start":3945.09,"end":3948.09,"text":"那是地理位置化解不明"},{"start":3948.09,"end":3950.09,"text":"那另外還有一個灰色區塊"},{"start":3950.09,"end":3954.09,"text":"引述過去法律不同的時間"},{"start":3954.09,"end":3956.09,"text":"不同的內容"},{"start":3956.09,"end":3958.09,"text":"它去套一個不同的practice"},{"start":3958.09,"end":3960.09,"text":"那這種現象"},{"start":3960.09,"end":3961.09,"text":"我們需要一個什麼"},{"start":3961.09,"end":3963.09,"text":"一個透明的圖表"},{"start":3963.09,"end":3965.09,"text":"那我建言下面"},{"start":3965.09,"end":3967.09,"text":"我們要注意上面的本質"},{"start":3967.09,"end":3969.09,"text":"四點原則五項做法"},{"start":3969.09,"end":3972.09,"text":"這個完全是外交部的展示的東西"},{"start":3972.09,"end":3974.09,"text":"那我們提個建議"},{"start":3974.09,"end":3975.09,"text":"讓他了解"},{"start":3975.38,"end":3977.38,"text":"這個"},{"start":3976.56,"end":3978.56,"text":"國際仲裁庭並不是國際法庭"},{"start":3978.56,"end":3981.56,"text":"所以它不涉及國家的主權"},{"start":3981.56,"end":3982.56,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":3982.56,"end":3984.56,"text":"它是利益糾紛"},{"start":3984.56,"end":3985.56,"text":"私權的爭端"},{"start":3985.56,"end":3987.56,"text":"所以我們需要國家的公權力"},{"start":3987.56,"end":3988.56,"text":"做這個"},{"start":3989.6,"end":3990.6,"text":"後盾"},{"start":3990.55,"end":3991.55,"text":"另外啊"},{"start":3991.98,"end":3993.98,"text":"我們海巡駐守南沙太平島"},{"start":3993.98,"end":3995.98,"text":"或東沙"},{"start":3995.98,"end":3998.98,"text":"這個我們需要國家持續在上面"},{"start":3998.98,"end":4000.98,"text":"做支持"},{"start":4000.98,"end":4001.98,"text":"那我們如果有機會"},{"start":4001.98,"end":4004.98,"text":"是不是也可以邀請外媒"},{"start":4004.98,"end":4007.98,"text":"到東沙到太平島"},{"start":4007.98,"end":4009.98,"text":"在島上做一個現勘"},{"start":4009.98,"end":4010.98,"text":"做個訪問"},{"start":4010.98,"end":4013.98,"text":"因為剛好這個調發師市長"},{"start":4013.98,"end":4014.98,"text":"您也在旁邊"},{"start":4014.98,"end":4017.98,"text":"等一下剛好借重您的這個專業"},{"start":4017.98,"end":4018.98,"text":"那麼除了海巡署"},{"start":4018.98,"end":4020.98,"text":"不定期派艦船巡邏以外"},{"start":4020.98,"end":4024.98,"text":"另外因為在這幾個東沙島跟太平島"},{"start":4024.98,"end":4025.98,"text":"一個是有領海基線"},{"start":4025.98,"end":4028.98,"text":"一個是禁止水域限制水域"},{"start":4028.98,"end":4030.98,"text":"所以它的增收器"},{"start":4030.98,"end":4032.98,"text":"平面雷達涵蓋範圍有限"},{"start":4032.98,"end":4035.98,"text":"可能未來我們還要請這個海巡"},{"start":4035.98,"end":4037.98,"text":"在那邊要部署無人機能夠做反應"},{"start":4037.98,"end":4040.98,"text":"我下面就是用圖來給大家看"},{"start":4040.98,"end":4041.98,"text":"這個是"},{"start":4042.69,"end":4044.69,"text":"一張顯示台灣"},{"start":4045.54,"end":4049.54,"text":"這個就是套疊了整個南海島的位置"},{"start":4053.68,"end":4057.68,"text":"左上角是根據我們的內政部公佈的"},{"start":4057.68,"end":4059.68,"text":"透過行政院發佈的兩次命令"},{"start":4059.68,"end":4061.68,"text":"民國88年98年"},{"start":4061.68,"end":4064.68,"text":"這裡面黃岩島是我們的"},{"start":4066.48,"end":4068.48,"text":"所謂的領海基線設定的"},{"start":4068.44,"end":4072.44,"text":"所以中國大陸跟菲律賓在那邊爭吵"},{"start":4072.44,"end":4074.44,"text":"實際上我們的立場"},{"start":4074.44,"end":4076.44,"text":"這就是說產權在我家登記"},{"start":4076.44,"end":4078.44,"text":"你們如何去引起爭端"},{"start":4078.44,"end":4079.44,"text":"那你們家是"},{"start":4079.44,"end":4082.44,"text":"但是我們要強調我們的主權"},{"start":4083.71,"end":4086.71,"text":"這個各位看到的是衛星照片"},{"start":4086.71,"end":4088.71,"text":"就是把每一個島礁"},{"start":4088.71,"end":4090.71,"text":"校正同一個比例"},{"start":4090.71,"end":4092.71,"text":"所以你看到中國大陸"},{"start":4092.71,"end":4094.71,"text":"現在菲律賓在吵的就是"},{"start":4094.71,"end":4097.71,"text":"所謂黃岩島民主礁在右上角"},{"start":4097.71,"end":4100.71,"text":"這是目前最大的涵蓋範圍"},{"start":4100.71,"end":4103.71,"text":"它的海底生態漁獲"},{"start":4103.71,"end":4104.71,"text":"因為範圍很大"},{"start":4104.71,"end":4105.71,"text":"所以涉及到利益"},{"start":4105.71,"end":4107.71,"text":"這個我們是有主權的"},{"start":4108.38,"end":4111.38,"text":"這個是岸礁沒有出來的"},{"start":4111.38,"end":4114.38,"text":"中國大陸人工島礁就是美濟礁"},{"start":4115.66,"end":4116.66,"text":"還有這個"},{"start":4117.38,"end":4118.38,"text":"竹壁礁"},{"start":4119.7,"end":4121.7,"text":"原來太平島是在南海裡面"},{"start":4121.7,"end":4124.7,"text":"最大的島現在變成第四大了"},{"start":4124.7,"end":4126.7,"text":"可是中國大陸持續它的威力"},{"start":4126.7,"end":4128.7,"text":"最近在南海中間"},{"start":4128.7,"end":4130.7,"text":"另外一個就是昨天的報紙也講"},{"start":4130.7,"end":4132.7,"text":"就是在所謂的仁愛礁"},{"start":4132.7,"end":4135.7,"text":"仁愛礁是在水下的"},{"start":4135.7,"end":4137.7,"text":"所以菲律賓在1999年"},{"start":4139.62,"end":4141.62,"text":"把它那個二次大難的登陸艦"},{"start":4141.62,"end":4143.62,"text":"叫做Model A"},{"start":4143.62,"end":4144.62,"text":"就在那邊光頂"},{"start":4144.62,"end":4148.62,"text":"它利用光頂的船變成基地"},{"start":4148.62,"end":4151.62,"text":"目前中國大陸跟菲律賓在那邊爭吵的"},{"start":4151.62,"end":4153.62,"text":"第一個是用海景"},{"start":4154.44,"end":4157.44,"text":"菲律賓在船上派的是海軍"},{"start":4157.44,"end":4160.44,"text":"所以當海景跟海軍起衝突的時候"},{"start":4160.44,"end":4163.44,"text":"海軍的法律要吃虧了"},{"start":4164.29,"end":4166.29,"text":"因為他們做的是法律保護"},{"start":4167.19,"end":4169.19,"text":"並不是軍事上的爭執"},{"start":4169.19,"end":4172.19,"text":"所以他們雙方拿這個所謂的"},{"start":4172.19,"end":4174.19,"text":"這個圖我下去後"},{"start":4174.19,"end":4176.19,"text":"我提供外交部同仁做參考"},{"start":4176.19,"end":4177.19,"text":"這太珍貴了"},{"start":4177.19,"end":4178.19,"text":"趕快把照片"},{"start":4178.19,"end":4179.19,"text":"因為這是已經校正過的"},{"start":4179.19,"end":4181.19,"text":"那我們也希望相來"},{"start":4181.19,"end":4183.19,"text":"我提供更大的範圖給您做參考"},{"start":4183.19,"end":4185.19,"text":"也就是說我們也要了解"},{"start":4185.19,"end":4188.19,"text":"所謂在仁愛礁起的衝突"},{"start":4188.19,"end":4190.19,"text":"仁愛礁到底在哪裡"},{"start":4190.19,"end":4191.19,"text":"是什麼現況"},{"start":4191.19,"end":4193.19,"text":"我們提供進一步的分析"},{"start":4193.19,"end":4194.19,"text":"至於黃岩島的部分"},{"start":4194.19,"end":4196.19,"text":"因為是我們內政部公布了"},{"start":4196.19,"end":4197.19,"text":"我們"},{"start":4198.55,"end":4199.55,"text":"要有自己的立場"},{"start":4199.55,"end":4202.55,"text":"本席在這個仲裁庭判決之前"},{"start":4202.55,"end":4206.55,"text":"也透過前面荷蘭的國防部長安排"},{"start":4206.55,"end":4207.55,"text":"所以我邀了我們的周台竹"},{"start":4207.55,"end":4209.55,"text":"當年的代表"},{"start":4209.55,"end":4211.55,"text":"我們也到現場去做個現地"},{"start":4211.55,"end":4212.55,"text":"去了解這個狀況"},{"start":4213.35,"end":4215.35,"text":"後續產生的問題"},{"start":4215.35,"end":4217.35,"text":"我們把這個建言"},{"start":4217.35,"end":4219.35,"text":"今天因為時間有限"},{"start":4219.35,"end":4220.35,"text":"我們再回饋給外交部"},{"start":4221.43,"end":4222.43,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4227.22,"end":4228.22,"text":"美國跟"},{"start":4229.09,"end":4233.09,"text":"跟西班牙在1898年美西有戰爭"},{"start":4233.09,"end":4236.09,"text":"後來他們簽了一個巴黎停火協議"},{"start":4236.62,"end":4237.62,"text":"這個協議裡面"},{"start":4237.62,"end":4239.62,"text":"包括了把古巴"},{"start":4240.53,"end":4242.53,"text":"關島"},{"start":4241.6,"end":4242.6,"text":"還有其他的"},{"start":4243.62,"end":4244.62,"text":"這個島礁"},{"start":4244.62,"end":4246.62,"text":"包括菲律賓的這些島礁"},{"start":4247.99,"end":4249.99,"text":"美國給2000萬美金"},{"start":4249.99,"end":4250.99,"text":"做調停"},{"start":4250.99,"end":4253.99,"text":"但是他把這個管轄權就歸了美國"},{"start":4253.99,"end":4255.99,"text":"然後二戰以後菲律賓才獨立"},{"start":4255.99,"end":4257.99,"text":"在當年簽的協議第三條裡面"},{"start":4257.99,"end":4258.99,"text":"就是"},{"start":4259.37,"end":4261.37,"text":"部長您看這個虛線"},{"start":4261.37,"end":4263.37,"text":"就是涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":4263.37,"end":4265.37,"text":"這個涵蓋的範圍人愛交"},{"start":4265.9,"end":4266.9,"text":"是在外面的"},{"start":4267.62,"end":4269.62,"text":"那同樣的所謂的"},{"start":4269.62,"end":4271.62,"text":"這個黃岩島也在外面的"},{"start":4271.62,"end":4272.62,"text":"這是歷史"},{"start":4272.62,"end":4274.62,"text":"那我們不去吵誰對誰錯"},{"start":4274.62,"end":4277.62,"text":"但這個故事可能我們需要了解一下"},{"start":4279.16,"end":4281.16,"text":"這個圖我們更放大了"},{"start":4281.16,"end":4282.16,"text":"看到的"},{"start":4282.32,"end":4283.32,"text":"黃岩島"},{"start":4283.61,"end":4284.61,"text":"看到的人愛交"},{"start":4284.61,"end":4286.61,"text":"那我們太平島在中間"},{"start":4286.61,"end":4288.61,"text":"這個框框就是18"},{"start":4289.77,"end":4290.77,"text":"九八年"},{"start":4290.97,"end":4291.97,"text":"美飛"},{"start":4292.17,"end":4294.17,"text":"而美西停火在巴黎協議"},{"start":4294.17,"end":4295.17,"text":"講的那個界線"},{"start":4295.17,"end":4296.17,"text":"我們希望了解一下"},{"start":4298.04,"end":4300.04,"text":"這個美國支付2000萬美元"},{"start":4300.04,"end":4302.04,"text":"就等於說買到菲律賓的主權"},{"start":4302.45,"end":4306.45,"text":"那後面90年又再付10萬美元"},{"start":4306.45,"end":4307.45,"text":"做一個補充"},{"start":4308.44,"end":4311.44,"text":"這個是今天早上7點半"},{"start":4311.44,"end":4313.44,"text":"在太平島周遭"},{"start":4313.44,"end":4316.44,"text":"我們也發現離岸很近的"},{"start":4316.44,"end":4318.44,"text":"大概這個1000公尺"},{"start":4318.44,"end":4319.44,"text":"有個不明目標"},{"start":4319.44,"end":4320.44,"text":"他把信號關掉"},{"start":4321.45,"end":4323.45,"text":"在外面外側也有"},{"start":4323.45,"end":4324.45,"text":"那這個將來"},{"start":4324.45,"end":4326.45,"text":"我們可能要建議海巡"},{"start":4326.45,"end":4328.45,"text":"要用無人機出去看"},{"start":4328.45,"end":4330.45,"text":"這個了解一下"},{"start":4330.45,"end":4331.45,"text":"那最後就是說"},{"start":4331.45,"end":4333.45,"text":"我們的經濟海域是用"},{"start":4334.73,"end":4336.73,"text":"這個內政部勾畫的框架"},{"start":4336.73,"end":4338.73,"text":"那中間重疊那個黃色陰影區"},{"start":4338.73,"end":4341.73,"text":"就是上次菲律賓跟日本"},{"start":4341.73,"end":4343.73,"text":"他們在談並沒有要我們談的"},{"start":4344.87,"end":4346.87,"text":"我想我們的這個調法師"},{"start":4346.87,"end":4347.87,"text":"對這些圖"},{"start":4347.87,"end":4349.87,"text":"如果我們將來提供您做參考"},{"start":4349.87,"end":4350.87,"text":"你在做論述方面上"},{"start":4350.87,"end":4352.87,"text":"你有我們自己的立場"},{"start":4353.31,"end":4354.31,"text":"啊"},{"start":4355,"end":43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598.4,"text":"去做一個理由"},{"start":4598.4,"end":4600.4,"text":"但是我們怎麼樣不去涉入到"},{"start":4600.4,"end":4601.4,"text":"他們之間的紛爭"},{"start":4601.4,"end":4603.4,"text":"但是能夠捍衛我們的利益"},{"start":4603.4,"end":4605.4,"text":"所以講話比較客氣"},{"start":4605.4,"end":4607.4,"text":"但是是很堅定的"},{"start":4607.4,"end":4610.4,"text":"比如說這個四點原則"},{"start":4610.4,"end":4614.4,"text":"還有這個五項的"},{"start":4614.4,"end":4618.4,"text":"我們的作為"},{"start":4618.4,"end":4619.4,"text":"這個都很具體"},{"start":4619.4,"end":4621.4,"text":"當時蔡英文總統"},{"start":4621.4,"end":4624.4,"text":"特別把這個定調"},{"start":4624.4,"end":4626.4,"text":"是讓我們不會進退失據"},{"start":4626.4,"end":4628.4,"text":"但是我們也可以有為有守"},{"start":4628.4,"end":4630.4,"text":"因為我看外交部這幾年"},{"start":4630.4,"end":4632.4,"text":"只要到其他國家去"},{"start":4632.4,"end":4635.4,"text":"不管事前事終或"},{"start":4635.4,"end":4638.4,"text":"你去完一個月以後才發布訊息"},{"start":4638.4,"end":4640.4,"text":"那個都我個人認為"},{"start":4640.4,"end":4642.4,"text":"那個都是主動出擊"},{"start":4642.26,"end":4644.26,"text":"有機會下去"},{"start":4644.26,"end":4646.26,"text":"我們也希望跟我們的友盟"},{"start":4646.26,"end":4648.26,"text":"不要有surprise"},{"start":4648.26,"end":4649.26,"text":"所以很多要共同管理"},{"start":4649.26,"end":4650.26,"text":"因為那種國際情勢"},{"start":4650.26,"end":4652.26,"text":"所以我會看到有一些"},{"start":4652.26,"end":4654.26,"text":"我們處理的方法不盡相同"},{"start":4654.26,"end":4656.26,"text":"因為會因各國而異"},{"start":4656.26,"end":4658.26,"text":"所以大家都看到"},{"start":4658.26,"end":4661.26,"text":"最近說什麼你一個月前走去哪裡"},{"start":4661.26,"end":4663.26,"text":"我不是去玩"},{"start":4663.26,"end":4665.26,"text":"我是去了解他們"},{"start":4665.26,"end":4668.26,"text":"包括柏英圍牆"},{"start":4668.26,"end":4671.26,"text":"或者是這些政治派的地方"},{"start":4671.26,"end":4674.26,"text":"那是你表面去看這個"},{"start":4674.26,"end":4676.26,"text":"你去到其他地方"},{"start":4676.26,"end":4677.26,"text":"你也不能說"},{"start":4677.26,"end":4679.26,"text":"所以這個算是主動出擊"},{"start":4679.26,"end":4681.26,"text":"而今天的報告"},{"start":4681.26,"end":4682.26,"text":"看起來就是"},{"start":4682.26,"end":4684.26,"text":"我看整篇看起來"},{"start":4684.26,"end":4686.26,"text":"好像那裡有狀況"},{"start":4686.26,"end":4689.26,"text":"我們外交部才會發表相關的言論"},{"start":4689.26,"end":4691.26,"text":"我這樣的解讀對不對"},{"start":4691.55,"end":4693.55,"text":"可以請委員"},{"start":4693.55,"end":4695.55,"text":"那如果你的話你會怎麼做"},{"start":4695.55,"end":4696.55,"text":"我當我們指教一下"},{"start":4696.55,"end":4697.55,"text":"人家我們陳永康委員"},{"start":4697.55,"end":4699.55,"text":"都有秀出那個圖"},{"start":4699.55,"end":4700.55,"text":"你的圖如果有的話"},{"start":4700.55,"end":4702.55,"text":"我們就可以拿回去好好學習"},{"start":4702.55,"end":4704.55,"text":"不然你也會遺棄"},{"start":4704.55,"end":4705.55,"text":"你是外交部長"},{"start":4705.55,"end":4707.55,"text":"我是問說為什麼這個看起來"},{"start":4707.55,"end":4709.55,"text":"我們都是有狀況"},{"start":4710.35,"end":4711.35,"text":"我們回應"},{"start":4711.35,"end":4713.35,"text":"不是很主動的在談真事"},{"start":4713.35,"end":4716.35,"text":"在國際的這個局面頂管"},{"start":4716.35,"end":4717.35,"text":"到底顧慮是什麼"},{"start":4718.15,"end":4720.15,"text":"因為我們常被排除不能參加"},{"start":4720.15,"end":4722.15,"text":"所以為什麼國際媒體這麼重要"},{"start":4722.15,"end":4723.15,"text":"或會議"},{"start":4723.15,"end":4724.15,"text":"我們有時候真的是"},{"start":4724.15,"end":4727.15,"text":"我們的官員也只能用學者的身份"},{"start":4727.15,"end":4729.15,"text":"或藉助學者去參加"},{"start":4729.15,"end":4731.15,"text":"我們就是窮盡一切的方法"},{"start":4731.15,"end":4733.15,"text":"就要參與"},{"start":4733.15,"end":4735.15,"text":"然後這個"},{"start":4735.8,"end":4736.8,"text":"感覺起來"},{"start":4736.8,"end":4737.8,"text":"我們做這個事情"},{"start":4737.8,"end":4739.8,"text":"有時候要敬畏"},{"start":4739.8,"end":4740.8,"text":"要敬畏"},{"start":4740.8,"end":4741.8,"text":"可是看起來"},{"start":4741.8,"end":4742.8,"text":"外交部怎麼想的"},{"start":4742.8,"end":4746.8,"text":"就都在一些社群媒體上"},{"start":4746.8,"end":4748.8,"text":"那這些相對國家的"},{"start":4748.8,"end":4749.8,"text":"厲害關係"},{"start":4749.8,"end":4751.8,"text":"這些國家的媒體上"},{"start":4752.71,"end":4754.71,"text":"我們過去有沒有編預算"},{"start":4754.71,"end":4756.71,"text":"在他們各國內部"},{"start":4756.71,"end":4758.71,"text":"只要有狀況的時候"},{"start":4758.71,"end":4760.71,"text":"裡面媳婦也要帶去"},{"start":4760.71,"end":4762.71,"text":"中華民國的立場"},{"start":4762.71,"end":4764.71,"text":"這件事情我們有沒有在做"},{"start":4765.75,"end":4766.75,"text":"有做但做的時候"},{"start":4766.75,"end":4768.75,"text":"實在像委員講的"},{"start":4768.75,"end":4769.75,"text":"比較"},{"start":4772.16,"end":4773.16,"text":"軟囊羞澀"},{"start":4773.16,"end":4775.16,"text":"但是我們透過社群媒體"},{"start":4775.16,"end":4777.16,"text":"或透過邀訪記者"},{"start":4777.16,"end":4778.16,"text":"也是盡量在做"},{"start":4778.16,"end":4780.16,"text":"但是有一些真的"},{"start":4780.16,"end":4781.16,"text":"我們打不太進去"},{"start":4781.16,"end":4782.16,"text":"除了邦交關係以外"},{"start":4782.16,"end":4785.16,"text":"其實其實媒宣是很重要的"},{"start":4785.16,"end":4787.16,"text":"所以我們一點一滴"},{"start":4787.16,"end":4788.16,"text":"我們現在內容"},{"start":4788.16,"end":4790.16,"text":"因為人家會幫我們推波"},{"start":4790.16,"end":4792.16,"text":"所以要有產品"},{"start":4792.16,"end":4793.16,"text":"你看最近中國"},{"start":4793.16,"end":4795.16,"text":"他們就是做了一個"},{"start":4795.16,"end":4797.16,"text":"把人家弄成猴子"},{"start":4797.71,"end":4799.71,"text":"這個就變成新聞"},{"start":4799.71,"end":4801.71,"text":"這個也是媒宣"},{"start":4801.71,"end":4803.71,"text":"這個也要製作費"},{"start":4803.71,"end":4804.71,"text":"當然引起反彈"},{"start":4804.71,"end":4805.71,"text":"用這種歧視不好"},{"start":4805.71,"end":4807.71,"text":"我們有沒有考慮"},{"start":4807.71,"end":4808.71,"text":"這個題目"},{"start":4808.71,"end":4810.71,"text":"由中華民國的外交部"},{"start":4810.71,"end":4813.71,"text":"主動針對南海的事情"},{"start":4813.71,"end":4816.71,"text":"在中華民國開一個研討會"},{"start":4816.71,"end":4818.71,"text":"國際的"},{"start":4820.02,"end":4824.02,"text":"我想我們會跟海委會相關的"},{"start":4824.02,"end":4826.02,"text":"其實是也有"},{"start":4826.02,"end":4828.02,"text":"不過委員的建議我們來"},{"start":4828.02,"end":4830.02,"text":"我想最近這個時機應該是"},{"start":4830.02,"end":4832.02,"text":"很適合"},{"start":4832.02,"end":4835.02,"text":"讓我們的政府或是專家學者"},{"start":4835.02,"end":4837.02,"text":"還有各界的意見能夠呈現"},{"start":4837.02,"end":4840.02,"text":"我們來籌辦一下好了"},{"start":4840.02,"end":4842.02,"text":"這個就是我講的比較主動"},{"start":4842.02,"end":4845.02,"text":"因為現在看起來就是有狀況"},{"start":4845.02,"end":4847.02,"text":"包括我們外館也很努力"},{"start":4847.02,"end":4849.02,"text":"在溝通我們的立場"},{"start":4849.02,"end":4851.02,"text":"然後我們透過社群"},{"start":4851.02,"end":4852.02,"text":"各式各樣的社群"},{"start":4852.02,"end":4854.02,"text":"各種語言的社群"},{"start":4854.02,"end":4855.02,"text":"表達我們的立場"},{"start":4855.02,"end":4856.02,"text":"這看起來比較被動"},{"start":4856.02,"end":4858.02,"text":"那如果可以比較主動"},{"start":4858.02,"end":4860.02,"text":"又不要去激怒"},{"start":4860.72,"end":4862.72,"text":"相關的其他國家"},{"start":4864.08,"end":4866.08,"text":"透過研討會也許是一個方式"},{"start":4866.08,"end":4869.08,"text":"各國相關厲害關係國家的"},{"start":4869.08,"end":4871.08,"text":"學者專家"},{"start":4871.08,"end":4873.08,"text":"大家一起來討論這個國際法"},{"start":4873.08,"end":4875.08,"text":"或者海洋法相關的事情"},{"start":4875.08,"end":4877.08,"text":"也許是一個好的方法"},{"start":4877.08,"end":4880.08,"text":"這部長我看到今年年底進行"},{"start":4880.08,"end":4882.08,"text":"來研究看辦法辦這個活動"},{"start":4882.08,"end":4884.08,"text":"好 我們來加強辦理"},{"start":4884.08,"end":4887.08,"text":"好 那這個中國他們現在對這個事情"},{"start":4887.08,"end":4889.08,"text":"在你們的報告裡頭談了三件事情"},{"start":4889.08,"end":4891.08,"text":"叫做官方敘事"},{"start":4891.08,"end":4893.08,"text":"灰色地帶行動"},{"start":4893.08,"end":4895.08,"text":"軍事化部署"},{"start":4895.08,"end":4897.08,"text":"這三件事情"},{"start":4897.08,"end":4899.08,"text":"那中華民國呢"},{"start":4899.08,"end":4900.08,"text":"有沒有官方敘事"},{"start":4900.08,"end":4901.08,"text":"灰色地帶行動"},{"start":4901.08,"end":4902.08,"text":"軍事化部署"},{"start":4902.08,"end":4905.08,"text":"灰色地帶行動這我們可能不會做"},{"start":4905.08,"end":4908.08,"text":"那軍事化部署跟官方敘事"},{"start":4908.08,"end":4910.08,"text":"他們知道我們中央這樣做"},{"start":4910.08,"end":4913.08,"text":"那我們相對的在這些事情上面"},{"start":4913.08,"end":4915.08,"text":"我們的做法是什麼"},{"start":4915.57,"end":4917.57,"text":"我們不管任何的事件"},{"start":4917.57,"end":4920.57,"text":"或是說比較整體的我們的立場"},{"start":4920.57,"end":4923.57,"text":"我們其實都有很密切的在做"},{"start":4923.57,"end":4925.57,"text":"我們的所謂敘事"},{"start":4925.57,"end":4928.57,"text":"這些整合的意見"},{"start":4928.57,"end":4930.57,"text":"然後跟做對外的戰略溝通"},{"start":4930.57,"end":4934.57,"text":"其實這一次所謂的南海仲裁的十周年"},{"start":4934.57,"end":4937.57,"text":"我們其實跟包括國安會"},{"start":4937.57,"end":4940.57,"text":"這個陸委會海委會"},{"start":4940.57,"end":4941.57,"text":"包括國防部"},{"start":4941.57,"end":4943.57,"text":"其實我們都有"},{"start":4943.43,"end":4944.43,"text":"超前部署"},{"start":4944.43,"end":4947.43,"text":"這樣才不會陷入到到時候被動或慌亂"},{"start":4947.43,"end":4949.43,"text":"所以大家可以講法以止"},{"start":4949.43,"end":4951.43,"text":"這個就是所謂敘事"},{"start":4951.43,"end":4953.43,"text":"另外至於說我們當然"},{"start":4953.43,"end":4956.43,"text":"軍事上我們台灣現在很清楚"},{"start":4956.43,"end":4959.43,"text":"我們的這個對中共的整個混合戰"},{"start":4959.43,"end":4962.43,"text":"除了這個軍事方面之外"},{"start":4962.43,"end":4964.43,"text":"這一些灰色地帶的操弄"},{"start":4964.43,"end":4966.43,"text":"實際上我們是每天都在處理"},{"start":4966.43,"end":4968.43,"text":"因為訪兵很多"},{"start":4968.43,"end":4970.43,"text":"我們也出國去的"},{"start":4970.43,"end":4973.43,"text":"很多的這個參與的一些重要會議"},{"start":4973.43,"end":4976.43,"text":"所以這可以說是24小時"},{"start":4976.43,"end":4979.43,"text":"不分晝夜都在進行國際的"},{"start":4979.98,"end":4981.98,"text":"宣傳戰"},{"start":4981.98,"end":4982.98,"text":"這個是有些是戰略溝通"},{"start":4982.98,"end":4984.98,"text":"因為要跟厲害關係人"},{"start":4984.98,"end":4985.98,"text":"一起來應處"},{"start":4985.98,"end":4988.98,"text":"所以確實這個一億的"},{"start":4988.98,"end":4990.98,"text":"多的預算很重要"},{"start":4990.98,"end":4991.98,"text":"那我們也知道委員"},{"start":4991.98,"end":4993.98,"text":"你的這個對民主基金會"},{"start":4993.98,"end":4996.98,"text":"也這個保留"},{"start":4996.98,"end":4999.98,"text":"現在保留不是說就有或沒有"},{"start":4999.98,"end":5001.98,"text":"到朝野協商的時候一併"},{"start":5001.98,"end":5002.98,"text":"這個能夠"},{"start":5002.98,"end":5003.98,"text":"有機會這樣說這條"},{"start":5003.98,"end":5004.98,"text":"我是在"},{"start":5004.98,"end":5006.98,"text":"民主基金會可以做一些事情"},{"start":5006.98,"end":5008.98,"text":"但是我們也希望說"},{"start":5008.98,"end":5009.98,"text":"民主基金會可以做事"},{"start":5009.98,"end":5011.98,"text":"但是讓我們這個外交部也可以做事"},{"start":5011.98,"end":5013.98,"text":"這兩岸並程"},{"start":5013.98,"end":5016.98,"text":"看能不能一起能夠來討論"},{"start":5016.98,"end":5018.98,"text":"讓我們多一點"},{"start":5018.98,"end":5020.98,"text":"這是超越黨派的"},{"start":5020.98,"end":5021.98,"text":"好"},{"start":5021.98,"end":5022.98,"text":"好 各個研究"},{"start":5022.98,"end":5023.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5024.51,"end":5025.51,"text":"好 謝謝王委員"},{"start":5029.84,"end":5032.84,"text":"下一位我們請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":5032.84,"end":5033.84,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5039.14,"end":5040.14,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5040.14,"end":5041.14,"text":"麻煩請林部長"},{"start":5048.2,"end":5049.2,"text":"部長好"},{"start":5049.2,"end":5050.2,"text":"部長好"},{"start":5050.2,"end":5053.2,"text":"部長我們今天其實可能"},{"start":5053.2,"end":5055.2,"text":"大家會關注的議題也滿多的"},{"start":5055.2,"end":5056.2,"text":"因為外交"},{"start":5056.2,"end":5058.2,"text":"其實我們的處境"},{"start":5058.2,"end":5059.2,"text":"並不是那麼容易"},{"start":5059.2,"end":5061.2,"text":"不過我們更希望我們是"},{"start":5061.2,"end":5063.2,"text":"有更強的一個態度"},{"start":5063.2,"end":5066.2,"text":"因為基本上我相信國人還有"},{"start":5066.2,"end":5069.2,"text":"我們所有不管是朝野的委員"},{"start":5069.2,"end":5071.2,"text":"大家一定都會支持"},{"start":5071.2,"end":5072.2,"text":"我們所有的外交工作"},{"start":5072.2,"end":5074.2,"text":"可是當我們有不夠好的地方"},{"start":5074.2,"end":5076.2,"text":"或者我們還有"},{"start":5076.2,"end":5078.2,"text":"可以有更精進的作為"},{"start":5078.2,"end":5080.2,"text":"或者大家應該要怎麼樣共同"},{"start":5080.2,"end":5082.2,"text":"以致對外的時候"},{"start":5082.2,"end":5086.2,"text":"我們還是應該要提出一些方向策略"},{"start":5086.2,"end":5090.2,"text":"那我們看近期發生的一些事情"},{"start":5090.2,"end":5094.2,"text":"比如說像上週巴布亞"},{"start":5094.2,"end":5096.2,"text":"牛頸內亞的外長"},{"start":5096.2,"end":5098.2,"text":"他是以臉書的方式"},{"start":5098.2,"end":5102.2,"text":"然後用竹克令的這樣的一個方法來宣布"},{"start":5102.2,"end":5104.2,"text":"外交部駐巴紐的"},{"start":5104.2,"end":5106.2,"text":"台北經濟辦事處關閉"},{"start":5106.73,"end":5109.73,"text":"所以他直接說我們這個實體機構"},{"start":5109.73,"end":5111.73,"text":"將不再獲得承認"},{"start":5111.73,"end":5112.73,"text":"也沒有設立的必要"},{"start":5112.73,"end":5114.73,"text":"這對我們來說"},{"start":5114.73,"end":5116.73,"text":"雖然外交部有發表聲明"},{"start":5116.73,"end":5118.73,"text":"那我們這幾項聲明"},{"start":5118.73,"end":5122.73,"text":"其實我們也開了一個"},{"start":5122.73,"end":5123.73,"text":"部長有對媒體說"},{"start":5123.73,"end":5126.73,"text":"我們有召開緊急應變的會議"},{"start":5126.73,"end":5128.73,"text":"我想要請教部長"},{"start":5128.73,"end":5131.73,"text":"我們這一場應變會議是誰主持的"},{"start":5131.73,"end":5133.73,"text":"有哪些單位參加"},{"start":5133.73,"end":5135.73,"text":"會中有哪些決議嗎"},{"start":5137.74,"end":5141.74,"text":"當然國安會都有會整個部會的意見"},{"start":5141.74,"end":5143.74,"text":"所以是國安會召開"},{"start":5143.74,"end":5145.74,"text":"我們外交部做細部"},{"start":5145.74,"end":5147.74,"text":"因為最主要是這個還是以外交事務"},{"start":5147.74,"end":5149.74,"text":"不過牽涉地緣政治"},{"start":5149.74,"end":5151.74,"text":"這個相當的複雜"},{"start":5152.09,"end":5154.09,"text":"所以就是國安會召開"},{"start":5154.09,"end":5156.09,"text":"然後我們有相關的部會"},{"start":5156.09,"end":5158.09,"text":"外交部以外還有其他單位嗎"},{"start":5158.7,"end":5160.7,"text":"因為這涉及到經濟部"},{"start":5160.7,"end":5163.7,"text":"因為有一些人員的採購"},{"start":5163.7,"end":5164.7,"text":"商業的"},{"start":5164.7,"end":5166.7,"text":"好那我們有提到"},{"start":5166.7,"end":5168.7,"text":"最近部長有提到說"},{"start":5168.7,"end":5170.7,"text":"針對八紐的天然氣採購"},{"start":5170.7,"end":5172.7,"text":"會採取因應的作為"},{"start":5172.7,"end":5174.7,"text":"所以我們因應作為"},{"start":5174.7,"end":5176.7,"text":"在會中已經有做出結論了嗎"},{"start":5177.75,"end":5179.75,"text":"有一些原則性的結論"},{"start":5179.75,"end":5181.75,"text":"比如說我們當然有長約"},{"start":5181.75,"end":5183.75,"text":"也有現貨"},{"start":5183.75,"end":5185.75,"text":"當然現在的狀況"},{"start":5185.75,"end":5187.75,"text":"怎麼去做短中長期的"},{"start":5187.75,"end":5189.75,"text":"應對"},{"start":5189.75,"end":5191.75,"text":"因為這也需要跟"},{"start":5191.75,"end":5193.75,"text":"其他利害關係的國家"},{"start":5193.75,"end":5195.75,"text":"來協商"},{"start":5195.75,"end":5197.75,"text":"那也涉及到我們人員的配比"},{"start":5197.75,"end":5199.75,"text":"所以目前其實他還沒有一個"},{"start":5199.75,"end":5201.75,"text":"正式的結論嗎"},{"start":5201.75,"end":5203.75,"text":"我們是放出這個訊號就是說"},{"start":5203.75,"end":5205.75,"text":"有一些現貨"},{"start":5205.75,"end":5207.75,"text":"我們是馬上可以處理的"},{"start":5207.75,"end":5209.75,"text":"因為這是在這個市場上"},{"start":5209.75,"end":5211.75,"text":"因為我們其實採購"},{"start":5211.75,"end":5213.75,"text":"其實除了長約以外"},{"start":5213.75,"end":5215.75,"text":"也有相當大比例是現貨市場"},{"start":5215.75,"end":5217.75,"text":"那這也涉及到第三國"},{"start":5217.75,"end":5219.75,"text":"有參與"},{"start":5219.75,"end":5221.75,"text":"那也涉及到我們約的時間長短"},{"start":5221.75,"end":5223.75,"text":"那我們放出這個訊息是說"},{"start":5223.75,"end":5225.75,"text":"其實他們"},{"start":5225.64,"end":5227.64,"text":"其實很多人知道"},{"start":5227.64,"end":5229.64,"text":"不是像他們外交部長"},{"start":5229.64,"end":5231.64,"text":"我們沒有什麼經貿往來"},{"start":5231.64,"end":5233.64,"text":"我就舉這個例子就有"},{"start":5233.64,"end":5235.64,"text":"周邊國家也都很關切"},{"start":5235.64,"end":5237.64,"text":"因為這會涉及到"},{"start":5237.31,"end":5239.31,"text":"這是地緣政治上的複雜變化"},{"start":5239.31,"end":5241.31,"text":"這個可能牽涉到"},{"start":5241.31,"end":5243.31,"text":"因為其實我們台灣"},{"start":5243.31,"end":5245.31,"text":"每年像八紐進口"},{"start":5245.31,"end":5247.31,"text":"120萬噸的天然氣"},{"start":5247.31,"end":5249.31,"text":"不止120萬噸那是長約"},{"start":5249.31,"end":5251.31,"text":"我們還有現貨市場"},{"start":5251.31,"end":5253.31,"text":"那個馬上就可以處理"},{"start":5253.31,"end":5255.31,"text":"表示非常多嘛"},{"start":5255.31,"end":5257.31,"text":"我的意思是說對八紐的部分"},{"start":5257.31,"end":5259.31,"text":"因為如果說像"},{"start":5259.31,"end":5261.31,"text":"像這個該國產量"},{"start":5261.31,"end":5263.31,"text":"進三分之一其實是非常高的"},{"start":5263.31,"end":5265.31,"text":"這個又有長約"},{"start":5265.31,"end":5267.31,"text":"那如果我們停的話"},{"start":5267.31,"end":5269.31,"text":"因為他為什麼不太在乎"},{"start":5269.31,"end":5271.31,"text":"第一是簽長約"},{"start":5271.31,"end":5273.31,"text":"第二其實"},{"start":5272.81,"end":5274.81,"text":"這個不像其他的農產品"},{"start":5274.81,"end":5276.81,"text":"我們可能可以有很多的"},{"start":5276.81,"end":5278.81,"text":"一個來源可是天然氣"},{"start":5278.81,"end":5280.81,"text":"對我們來說非常重要"},{"start":5280.81,"end":5282.81,"text":"因為現在發電我們"},{"start":5282.81,"end":5284.81,"text":"自己就在天然氣的部分"},{"start":5284.81,"end":5286.81,"text":"佔比高達50%以上"},{"start":5286.81,"end":5288.81,"text":"所以對我們來說"},{"start":5288.81,"end":5290.81,"text":"也是被掐住咽喉"},{"start":5290.81,"end":5292.81,"text":"所以其實他很清楚"},{"start":5292.81,"end":5294.81,"text":"這一個面向上面我們"},{"start":5294.81,"end":5296.81,"text":"到底會採取什麼樣的措施"},{"start":5296.81,"end":5298.81,"text":"所以他不是太緊張"},{"start":5298.81,"end":5300.81,"text":"或者太擔心的原因我想"},{"start":5300.81,"end":5302.81,"text":"這個也是其中一個因素"},{"start":5302.81,"end":5304.81,"text":"因為如果我們簽了長約"},{"start":5304.81,"end":5306.81,"text":"我們解約那我們要賠償多少"},{"start":5307.45,"end":5309.45,"text":"然後我們的其他來源會是怎麼樣"},{"start":5309.45,"end":5311.45,"text":"如果你在"},{"start":5311.45,"end":5313.45,"text":"我們有需求然後需要其他來源的時候"},{"start":5313.45,"end":5315.45,"text":"是不是又要買很貴"},{"start":5315.45,"end":5317.45,"text":"這個對我們來說"},{"start":5317.45,"end":5319.45,"text":"可能也都是一個考量"},{"start":5319.45,"end":5321.45,"text":"所以我想這個部分"},{"start":5321.45,"end":5323.45,"text":"在八牛來說他們並不會"},{"start":5323.45,"end":5325.45,"text":"太擔心的原因也是這樣"},{"start":5325.45,"end":5327.45,"text":"可是對我們來說我們沒有其他的"},{"start":5327.45,"end":5329.45,"text":"籌碼了嗎這是第一點"},{"start":5329.45,"end":5331.45,"text":"第二個還有就是"},{"start":5331.45,"end":5333.45,"text":"像對於這個八牛"},{"start":5333.45,"end":5335.45,"text":"他們這個地理位置"},{"start":5335.45,"end":5337.45,"text":"因為我們的來源天然氣的來源"},{"start":5337.45,"end":5339.45,"text":"現在包括美伊戰爭"},{"start":5339.45,"end":5341.45,"text":"其實也會造成很多"},{"start":5341.45,"end":5343.45,"text":"國際在能源上面"},{"start":5343.45,"end":5345.45,"text":"也會造成一些相關的衝擊"},{"start":5345.45,"end":5347.45,"text":"那八牛從地理位置來看"},{"start":5347.45,"end":5349.45,"text":"在台灣的能源安全"},{"start":5349.45,"end":5351.45,"text":"跟供應多元化的"},{"start":5351.45,"end":5353.45,"text":"這個部分其實他扮演"},{"start":5353.45,"end":5355.45,"text":"也是重要的角色"},{"start":5355.45,"end":5357.45,"text":"因為他來自赤道以南"},{"start":5357.45,"end":5359.45,"text":"可以避開數個主要"},{"start":5359.45,"end":5361.45,"text":"海上咽喉的藥道"},{"start":5361.45,"end":5363.45,"text":"包括現在"},{"start":5363.45,"end":5365.45,"text":"還有馬六甲海峽"},{"start":5365.45,"end":5367.45,"text":"或者是南海"},{"start":5367.45,"end":5369.45,"text":"他是台灣一條來自西太平洋"},{"start":5369.45,"end":5371.45,"text":"更具韌性的"},{"start":5371.45,"end":5373.45,"text":"這個能源走廊"},{"start":5373.45,"end":5375.45,"text":"所以對我們來說反而如果"},{"start":5375.45,"end":5377.45,"text":"斷然把這一個來源"},{"start":5377.45,"end":5379.45,"text":"把它排除可能對我們"},{"start":5379.45,"end":5381.45,"text":"也是會造成一些衝擊"},{"start":5381.45,"end":5383.45,"text":"所以這個我們也不得不考量"},{"start":5383.45,"end":5385.45,"text":"那我相信他也會"},{"start":5385.45,"end":5387.45,"text":"有所他們"},{"start":5387.45,"end":5389.45,"text":"應該也有掌握啦所以敢這樣子"},{"start":5389.45,"end":5391.45,"text":"那對我們來說還有其他的"},{"start":5391.45,"end":5393.45,"text":"一些武器籌碼嗎"},{"start":5394.56,"end":5396.56,"text":"我們當然那邊也有一些"},{"start":5396.56,"end":5398.56,"text":"跟他其他的合作計畫在進行中"},{"start":5398.56,"end":5400.56,"text":"那其實我"},{"start":5400.56,"end":5402.56,"text":"講一點就是說去年"},{"start":5402.56,"end":5404.56,"text":"因為也是"},{"start":5404.56,"end":5406.56,"text":"就是美國的"},{"start":5406.56,"end":5408.56,"text":"副國務卿有到八牛"},{"start":5408.56,"end":5410.56,"text":"那也這個"},{"start":5410.56,"end":5412.56,"text":"其實就是在阻止中共"},{"start":5412.56,"end":5414.56,"text":"在這個地方的控制"},{"start":5414.56,"end":5416.56,"text":"澳洲也簽了安全協定"},{"start":5416.56,"end":5418.56,"text":"那也包括"},{"start":5418.56,"end":5420.56,"text":"有上億"},{"start":5420.56,"end":5422.56,"text":"這個"},{"start":5422.56,"end":5424.56,"text":"澳幣的援助"},{"start":5424.56,"end":5426.56,"text":"其實大家都知道說中共的擴張"},{"start":5426.56,"end":5428.56,"text":"它會變成前進的一個"},{"start":5428.56,"end":5430.56,"text":"基地的時候那台灣在那邊"},{"start":5430.56,"end":5432.56,"text":"都是一股正向的力量"},{"start":5432.56,"end":5434.56,"text":"所以我們其實是"},{"start":5434.56,"end":5436.56,"text":"為什麼我們說我們在交涉中"},{"start":5436.56,"end":5438.56,"text":"我們也告訴其實"},{"start":5438.56,"end":5440.56,"text":"八牛只有這個部長啦"},{"start":5440.56,"end":5442.56,"text":"因為他是被中共"},{"start":5442.56,"end":5444.56,"text":"很直接的給他利益"},{"start":5444.56,"end":5446.56,"text":"因為他的選區就在進入機場"},{"start":5446.56,"end":5448.56,"text":"的那個地方八牛"},{"start":5448.56,"end":5450.56,"text":"他們的做法不會只有一個部長"},{"start":5450.56,"end":5452.56,"text":"就可以決定所有的事情"},{"start":5452.56,"end":5454.56,"text":"尤其像很重要的事情"},{"start":5454.56,"end":5456.56,"text":"如果說像這樣子的一個"},{"start":5456.56,"end":5458.56,"text":"商業合作或者其他的"},{"start":5458.56,"end":5460.56,"text":"會有什麼任何變動"},{"start":5460.56,"end":5462.56,"text":"一個部長就可以做這樣的決定"},{"start":5462.56,"end":5464.56,"text":"那我們的角色就更尷尬了"},{"start":5464.56,"end":5466.56,"text":"所以顯然他沒有把我們"},{"start":5466.56,"end":5468.56,"text":"放在眼裡一個部長就可以"},{"start":5468.56,"end":5470.56,"text":"做這樣的決定所以我想我們"},{"start":5470.56,"end":5472.56,"text":"應該是可以全班"},{"start":5472.56,"end":5474.56,"text":"全班的在做更深入的一個"},{"start":5474.56,"end":5476.56,"text":"檢討跟因應的措施"},{"start":5476.56,"end":5478.56,"text":"可是他如果一個人決定"},{"start":5478.56,"end":5480.56,"text":"這對我們來說傷害更大"},{"start":5480.56,"end":5482.56,"text":"所以我想應該是不需要"},{"start":5482.56,"end":5484.56,"text":"從這樣的角度去做延伸"},{"start":5484.56,"end":5486.56,"text":"因為他很多"},{"start":5486.56,"end":5488.56,"text":"包括國外的媒體都已經披露了"},{"start":5488.56,"end":5490.56,"text":"八牛這樣子是兩面手法"},{"start":5490.56,"end":5492.56,"text":"因為他外交安全他要靠澳洲"},{"start":5492.56,"end":5494.56,"text":"他最近跟他們做了一些"},{"start":5494.56,"end":5496.56,"text":"包括國防或者一些相關的安全合作"},{"start":5496.56,"end":5498.56,"text":"他也怕引起中共"},{"start":5498.56,"end":5500.56,"text":"中國他可能"},{"start":5500.56,"end":5502.56,"text":"有的疑慮"},{"start":5502.56,"end":5504.56,"text":"所以他因為他經濟"},{"start":5504.56,"end":5506.56,"text":"還是要靠中國"},{"start":5506.56,"end":5508.56,"text":"所以對我們來說他犧牲了"},{"start":5508.56,"end":5510.56,"text":"我們中華民國"},{"start":5510.56,"end":5512.56,"text":"他把我們當棋子可有可無"},{"start":5512.56,"end":5514.56,"text":"對我們來說這個可能是"},{"start":5514.56,"end":5516.56,"text":"比較大的傷害我們希望"},{"start":5516.56,"end":5518.56,"text":"是朝這個面向去做一個"},{"start":5518.56,"end":5520.56,"text":"處置跟討論我們另外"},{"start":5520.56,"end":5522.56,"text":"還有就是說我們要"},{"start":5522.56,"end":5524.56,"text":"像這個部分"},{"start":5524.56,"end":5526.56,"text":"他已經"},{"start":5526.56,"end":5528.56,"text":"如果說不承認我們的存在"},{"start":5528.56,"end":5530.56,"text":"我們的住處的存在"},{"start":5530.56,"end":5532.56,"text":"那對我們很多"},{"start":5532.56,"end":5534.56,"text":"像"},{"start":5534.56,"end":5536.56,"text":"是在"},{"start":5536.56,"end":5538.56,"text":"商業上的來往比較多"},{"start":5538.56,"end":5540.56,"text":"他有很多的相關的文件"},{"start":5540.56,"end":5542.56,"text":"或者像他的公證"},{"start":5542.56,"end":5544.56,"text":"或者如果有爭議發生的時候"},{"start":5544.56,"end":5546.56,"text":"我們要怎麼樣確保"},{"start":5546.56,"end":5548.56,"text":"他的可能"},{"start":5548.56,"end":5550.56,"text":"在進行當中確保我們自己"},{"start":5550.56,"end":5552.56,"text":"我方的權益或者我們"},{"start":5552.56,"end":5554.56,"text":"駐外單位人員的安全"},{"start":5554.56,"end":5556.56,"text":"這會不會受到保障這個可能"},{"start":5556.56,"end":5558.56,"text":"才是我們應該要去面對的"},{"start":5558.56,"end":5560.56,"text":"那這個部分我們目前有什麼"},{"start":5560.56,"end":5562.56,"text":"樣的一個做法嗎"},{"start":5562.56,"end":5564.56,"text":"我們的安全或管束"},{"start":5564.56,"end":5566.56,"text":"在辦理的事項"},{"start":5566.56,"end":5568.56,"text":"我們是"},{"start":5568.56,"end":5570.56,"text":"都有持續在"},{"start":5570.56,"end":5572.56,"text":"檢視"},{"start":5572.56,"end":5574.56,"text":"可是因為現在他"},{"start":5574.56,"end":5576.56,"text":"就是說"},{"start":5576.56,"end":5578.56,"text":"這樣的一個片面的"},{"start":5578.56,"end":5580.56,"text":"聲明"},{"start":5580.56,"end":5582.56,"text":"我們當然也在交涉當中"},{"start":5582.56,"end":5584.56,"text":"因為實際上"},{"start":5584.56,"end":5586.56,"text":"因為他是跟印尼"},{"start":5586.56,"end":5588.56,"text":"這個所謂的"},{"start":5588.74,"end":5590.74,"text":"靠這個"},{"start":5592.12,"end":5594.12,"text":"靠這一邊"},{"start":5594.12,"end":5596.12,"text":"是有一些"},{"start":5596.12,"end":5598.12,"text":"包括華人或台商"},{"start":5598.12,"end":5600.12,"text":"的往來所以這個我們也是很密切"},{"start":5600.12,"end":5602.12,"text":"注意後續的影響"},{"start":5602.12,"end":5604.12,"text":"部長因為時間的關係"},{"start":5604.12,"end":5606.12,"text":"我用比較快的速度"},{"start":5606.12,"end":5608.12,"text":"我們也在關切的這個部分"},{"start":5608.12,"end":5610.12,"text":"因為在"},{"start":5610.12,"end":5612.12,"text":"7月27號我們外交部"},{"start":5612.12,"end":5614.12,"text":"也有發布相關的"},{"start":5614.12,"end":5616.12,"text":"一個新聞就是說"},{"start":5616.12,"end":5618.12,"text":"停止柬埔寨"},{"start":5618.12,"end":5620.12,"text":"他免簽還有關紅專案"},{"start":5620.12,"end":5622.12,"text":"的各項便利措施"},{"start":5622.12,"end":5624.12,"text":"我們想要知道的是"},{"start":5624.12,"end":5626.12,"text":"因為2018年8月我們就對柬埔寨"},{"start":5626.12,"end":5628.12,"text":"他納入這個免簽"},{"start":5628.12,"end":5630.12,"text":"跟關紅專案"},{"start":5630.12,"end":5632.12,"text":"給他很多的"},{"start":5632.12,"end":5634.12,"text":"一些可能優惠或者便利"},{"start":5634.12,"end":5636.12,"text":"可是我們在今天"},{"start":5636.12,"end":5638.12,"text":"特別要提出來的是"},{"start":5638.12,"end":5640.12,"text":"一直到現在因為我們"},{"start":5640.12,"end":5642.12,"text":"覺得考量的只有政治上的考量"},{"start":5642.12,"end":5644.12,"text":"因為2018年"},{"start":5644.12,"end":5646.12,"text":"到現在已經將近快十年的"},{"start":5646.12,"end":5648.12,"text":"時間至少九年了"},{"start":5648.12,"end":5650.12,"text":"我們在這個過程當中"},{"start":5650.12,"end":5652.12,"text":"我們有很多的年輕人"},{"start":5652.12,"end":5654.12,"text":"被騙到柬埔寨"},{"start":5654.12,"end":5656.12,"text":"當時也有很多人他們"},{"start":5656.12,"end":5658.12,"text":"對不管外交部"},{"start":5658.12,"end":5660.12,"text":"也好對我們政府也好都可以"},{"start":5660.12,"end":5662.12,"text":"都提出請求希望可以"},{"start":5662.12,"end":5664.12,"text":"對他們救援或者應該"},{"start":5664.12,"end":5666.12,"text":"在這個過程當中我們"},{"start":5666.12,"end":5668.12,"text":"給了免簽我們給了關紅專案"},{"start":5668.12,"end":5670.12,"text":"可是在這在這段期間我們"},{"start":5670.12,"end":5672.12,"text":"有很多的被騙去的年輕人"},{"start":5672.12,"end":5674.12,"text":"其實在那裡求救無門"},{"start":5674.12,"end":5676.12,"text":"我們很多是透過台商"},{"start":5676.12,"end":5678.12,"text":"因為當時政府都告訴我們"},{"start":5678.12,"end":5680.12,"text":"我們跟他們有邦交所以我們"},{"start":5680.12,"end":5682.12,"text":"很難有什麼樣積極的"},{"start":5682.12,"end":5684.12,"text":"居於救援的一個行動或"},{"start":5684.12,"end":5686.12,"text":"或做法"},{"start":5685.64,"end":5687.64,"text":"在這個過程當中我們"},{"start":5687.64,"end":5689.64,"text":"這些手段都沒有用上我們"},{"start":5689.64,"end":5691.64,"text":"持續給他這個"},{"start":5691.64,"end":5693.64,"text":"關紅專案裡面的一個優惠"},{"start":5693.64,"end":5695.64,"text":"跟便利我們也沒有"},{"start":5695.64,"end":5697.64,"text":"停止他的免簽當我們的"},{"start":5697.64,"end":5699.64,"text":"很多年輕人其實後來"},{"start":5699.64,"end":5701.64,"text":"很多家屬去那裡是去"},{"start":5701.64,"end":5703.64,"text":"認屍的有些到"},{"start":5703.64,"end":5705.64,"text":"現在還沒有"},{"start":5705.64,"end":5707.64,"text":"音訊都還全無所以當他們"},{"start":5707.64,"end":5709.64,"text":"被淋滅或者需要救援的時候"},{"start":5709.64,"end":5711.64,"text":"我們沒有用上這樣的一個手段"},{"start":5711.64,"end":5713.64,"text":"工具可是在現在"},{"start":5713.64,"end":5715.64,"text":"可能"},{"start":5715.64,"end":5717.64,"text":"政府在他發表"},{"start":5717.64,"end":5719.64,"text":"這樣子的一個政治性的"},{"start":5719.64,"end":5721.64,"text":"談話就是說還是"},{"start":5721.64,"end":5723.64,"text":"支持一中然後還支持"},{"start":5723.64,"end":5725.64,"text":"甚至支持中共武統這當然我們"},{"start":5725.64,"end":5727.64,"text":"不願意可是就這個部分"},{"start":5727.64,"end":5729.64,"text":"我們到目前因為政治"},{"start":5729.64,"end":5731.64,"text":"的因素我們才動用這樣子"},{"start":5731.64,"end":5733.64,"text":"關紅專案所以"},{"start":5733.64,"end":5735.64,"text":"包括泰國我們給泰國也是"},{"start":5735.64,"end":5737.64,"text":"免簽而且也是片面的"},{"start":5737.64,"end":5739.64,"text":"我們對他這麼多的優惠他也是"},{"start":5739.64,"end":5741.64,"text":"支持一中他也是對外"},{"start":5741.64,"end":5743.64,"text":"雙向的"},{"start":5743.64,"end":5745.64,"text":"所以就這個他也是"},{"start":5745.64,"end":5747.64,"text":"這樣子發布那我們對他們"},{"start":5747.64,"end":5749.64,"text":"有什麼樣的處置的作為這個"},{"start":5749.64,"end":5751.64,"text":"關紅專案我們希望"},{"start":5751.99,"end":5753.99,"text":"時間的關係外交部希望可以"},{"start":5753.99,"end":5755.99,"text":"就關紅專案提出一些"},{"start":5755.99,"end":5757.99,"text":"具體的一個資料的"},{"start":5757.99,"end":5759.99,"text":"一個做法跟說明然後"},{"start":5759.99,"end":5761.99,"text":"我們應該怎麼樣因應不要只有"},{"start":5761.99,"end":5763.99,"text":"政治因素我們才"},{"start":5763.99,"end":5765.99,"text":"做這樣子的一個處置包括"},{"start":5765.99,"end":5767.99,"text":"我們所有國人人身"},{"start":5767.99,"end":5769.99,"text":"安全包括我們國人的權益"},{"start":5769.99,"end":5771.99,"text":"包括有很多我們的尊嚴"},{"start":5771.99,"end":5773.99,"text":"我們應該適時的去啟動"},{"start":5773.99,"end":5775.99,"text":"這些那這個部分"},{"start":5775.99,"end":5777.99,"text":"關紅專案再請外交部提供"},{"start":5777.99,"end":5779.99,"text":"那快一點點時間"},{"start":5779.99,"end":5785.99,"text":"就美國針對301強迫勞動的調查從7月7號到7月9號"},{"start":5785.99,"end":5787.99,"text":"那包括加拿大韓國印度"},{"start":5787.99,"end":5789.99,"text":"墨西哥就是一些拉美國家"},{"start":5789.99,"end":5791.99,"text":"秘魯巴西等等其實"},{"start":5791.99,"end":5793.99,"text":"這些他們政府的一個"},{"start":5793.99,"end":5795.99,"text":"代表其實他們都對"},{"start":5795.99,"end":5797.99,"text":"美國提出書面的反駁"},{"start":5797.99,"end":5799.99,"text":"也已經陸續媒體都有"},{"start":5799.99,"end":5801.99,"text":"報導出來可是我們卻沒有"},{"start":5801.99,"end":5803.99,"text":"看到民進黨政府怎麼樣"},{"start":5803.99,"end":5805.99,"text":"堅守自己對人權的理念"},{"start":5805.99,"end":5807.99,"text":"如何向美國在國際上"},{"start":5807.99,"end":5809.99,"text":"捍衛我們自己的民生"},{"start":5809.99,"end":5811.99,"text":"到現在我們沒有看到因為這些國家"},{"start":5811.99,"end":5813.99,"text":"我們付出非常多像我們"},{"start":5813.99,"end":5815.99,"text":"在RT談判裡面"},{"start":5815.99,"end":5817.99,"text":"我們一直認為我們被犧牲"},{"start":5817.99,"end":5819.99,"text":"的非常多我們付出非常多我們的"},{"start":5819.99,"end":5821.99,"text":"代價其實是不符合"},{"start":5821.99,"end":5823.99,"text":"我們比例的可是就"},{"start":5823.99,"end":5825.99,"text":"已經301強迫"},{"start":5825.99,"end":5827.99,"text":"勞動的這個調查我們"},{"start":5827.99,"end":5829.99,"text":"也甚至沒有提出書"},{"start":5829.99,"end":5831.99,"text":"面的反駁有沒有"},{"start":5832.6,"end":5834.6,"text":"有啦我想這在交涉中"},{"start":5834.6,"end":5836.6,"text":"因為我剛剛講得很清楚"},{"start":5836.6,"end":5838.6,"text":"報告金巴偉辦公室"},{"start":5838.6,"end":5840.6,"text":"部長我講得很清楚是"},{"start":5840.6,"end":5842.6,"text":"書面具體的一個抗議"},{"start":5842.6,"end":5844.6,"text":"跟反駁我們有做嗎"},{"start":5844.6,"end":5846.6,"text":"沒有因為他就個案"},{"start":5846.6,"end":5848.6,"text":"或是有一些"},{"start":5848.6,"end":5850.6,"text":"有關於強迫勞動"},{"start":5850.6,"end":5852.6,"text":"當然是一個談判的策略"},{"start":5852.6,"end":5854.6,"text":"那不是談判"},{"start":5854.6,"end":5856.6,"text":"那有一個個案確實也被"},{"start":5856.6,"end":5858.6,"text":"聽完我的問題"},{"start":5858.6,"end":5860.6,"text":"部長聽完我的問題我剛剛講了"},{"start":5860.6,"end":5862.6,"text":"因為RT他自己本身"},{"start":5862.6,"end":5864.6,"text":"在美國他已經是被判定"},{"start":5864.6,"end":5866.6,"text":"違法美國用301"},{"start":5866.6,"end":5868.6,"text":"來強來"},{"start":5868.6,"end":5870.6,"text":"做這個調查其他國家"},{"start":5870.6,"end":5872.6,"text":"已經提出書面的這些反駁"},{"start":5872.6,"end":5874.6,"text":"提書面反駁必須不需要"},{"start":5874.6,"end":5876.6,"text":"發什麼花什麼錢包括"},{"start":5876.6,"end":5878.6,"text":"針對這個調查其實至少"},{"start":5878.6,"end":5880.6,"text":"已經收到1500分"},{"start":5880.6,"end":5882.6,"text":"來自於世界各國還有很多"},{"start":5882.6,"end":5884.6,"text":"商業代表已經提出書面反駁"},{"start":5884.6,"end":5886.6,"text":"可是我們中華民國還沒有"},{"start":5886.6,"end":5888.6,"text":"當我們連這個都沒有"},{"start":5888.6,"end":5890.6,"text":"提出來的時候有很多"},{"start":5890.6,"end":5892.6,"text":"執政黨的委員還在說"},{"start":5892.6,"end":5894.6,"text":"他需要很多的"},{"start":5894.6,"end":5896.6,"text":"煤炫的費用或什麼"},{"start":5896.6,"end":5898.6,"text":"你這個部分在應該"},{"start":5898.6,"end":5900.6,"text":"可以據理力爭不需要花什麼"},{"start":5900.6,"end":5902.6,"text":"經費的時候我們都沒有做到"},{"start":5902.6,"end":5904.6,"text":"沒有理由說我們花很多的"},{"start":5904.6,"end":5906.6,"text":"煤炫費你可以去改變"},{"start":5906.6,"end":5908.6,"text":"什麼樣的一個國際現實跟狀況"},{"start":5908.6,"end":5910.6,"text":"我們現在要說的包括"},{"start":5910.6,"end":5912.6,"text":"我們出境"},{"start":5912.6,"end":5914.6,"text":"去日本過境的時候"},{"start":5914.6,"end":5916.6,"text":"包括我們的總統"},{"start":5916.6,"end":5918.6,"text":"然後去我們的邦交國"},{"start":5918.6,"end":5920.6,"text":"還需要搭乘其他國家"},{"start":5920.6,"end":5922.6,"text":"的飛機的時候"},{"start":5922.6,"end":5924.6,"text":"我們的外交處境越來越困難"},{"start":5924.6,"end":5926.6,"text":"這個部分我們跟外交部"},{"start":5926.6,"end":5928.6,"text":"站在一起可是當你要"},{"start":5928.6,"end":5930.6,"text":"錢的時候不是只要錢"},{"start":5930.6,"end":5932.6,"text":"我們應該要怎麼樣做"},{"start":5932.6,"end":5934.6,"text":"讓國人可以看到讓國人"},{"start":5934.6,"end":5936.6,"text":"有信心如果你這些"},{"start":5936.6,"end":5938.6,"text":"都有做到我相信大家會給"},{"start":5938.6,"end":5940.6,"text":"你更多的支持的力量而不是"},{"start":5940.6,"end":5942.6,"text":"只要錢然後一直"},{"start":5942.6,"end":5944.6,"text":"說這個煤炫費用多重要"},{"start":5944.6,"end":5946.6,"text":"過去也那麼多"},{"start":5946.6,"end":5948.6,"text":"我們的外交預算沒有少過"},{"start":5948.6,"end":5950.6,"text":"外交預算是每年一直在增加"},{"start":5950.6,"end":5952.6,"text":"所以這個部分我們還是希望"},{"start":5952.6,"end":5954.6,"text":"外交部可以儘速的"},{"start":5954.6,"end":5956.6,"text":"可以提出一些熟練的指令"},{"start":5956.6,"end":5958.6,"text":"讓美國知道讓世界各國知道"},{"start":5960.35,"end":5962.35,"text":"因為這個"},{"start":5990.35,"end":5992.35,"text":"這個方面其實台灣相對來講表現"},{"start":5992.35,"end":5994.35,"text":"都是很好的這個部分"},{"start":5994.35,"end":5996.35,"text":"不是在我們的國會"},{"start":5996.35,"end":5998.35,"text":"上面說我們"},{"start":5998.35,"end":6000.35,"text":"應該要提出書面資料"},{"start":6000.35,"end":6002.35,"text":"因為像加拿大像韓國"},{"start":6002.35,"end":6004.35,"text":"像印度像墨西哥"},{"start":6004.35,"end":6006.35,"text":"像其他國家他們"},{"start":6006.35,"end":6008.35,"text":"提出書面反駁的時候"},{"start":6008.35,"end":6010.35,"text":"媒體就把它包出來了"},{"start":6010.35,"end":6012.35,"text":"而且是事件性的"},{"start":6012.35,"end":6014.35,"text":"勞動部也有提供"},{"start":6014.35,"end":6016.35,"text":"所以我們要的是我們"},{"start":6016.35,"end":6018.35,"text":"有沒有提出這樣子的一個"},{"start":6018.35,"end":6020.35,"text":"書面反駁如果有提供給我們委員會"},{"start":6020.35,"end":6022.35,"text":"我們會反應"},{"start":6022.35,"end":6024.35,"text":"因為這個不來自外交部"},{"start":6024.35,"end":6026.35,"text":"把這個書面資料我們有提出的"},{"start":6026.35,"end":6028.35,"text":"提供給委員會另外我們還是"},{"start":6028.35,"end":6030.35,"text":"希望我們所有的都可以"},{"start":6030.35,"end":6032.35,"text":"據理力增當大家其他國家"},{"start":6032.35,"end":6034.35,"text":"對我們不友善或者"},{"start":6034.35,"end":6036.35,"text":"我們包括我們一直認為"},{"start":6036.35,"end":6038.35,"text":"說都是我們的理念相近的國家"},{"start":6038.35,"end":6040.35,"text":"當沒有這樣對待我們的時候"},{"start":6040.35,"end":6042.35,"text":"我們應該要怎麼樣的因應"},{"start":6042.35,"end":6044.35,"text":"我們應該要很實際的"},{"start":6044.35,"end":6046.35,"text":"面對現在的國際現實"},{"start":6046.35,"end":6048.35,"text":"因為各個國家都只考量到"},{"start":6048.35,"end":6050.35,"text":"他們自己的自身國家的利益"},{"start":6050.35,"end":6052.35,"text":"所以這個部分我們沒有"},{"start":6052.35,"end":6054.35,"text":"辦法去扭轉或改變"},{"start":6054.35,"end":6056.35,"text":"我們要怎麼樣也去"},{"start":6056.35,"end":6058.35,"text":"正視國際的現實跟利益"},{"start":6058.35,"end":6060.35,"text":"我想這個也是我們應該"},{"start":6060.35,"end":6062.35,"text":"要去面對的"},{"start":6062.35,"end":6064.35,"text":"好我們會據理力增謝謝"},{"start":6067.42,"end":6069.42,"text":"謝謝馬委員部長您喝口水"},{"start":6071.77,"end":6073.77,"text":"下一位我們請林楚英委員質詢"},{"start":6078.68,"end":6080.68,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6085.78,"end":6087.78,"text":"主席謝謝有請陸委會審副主委"},{"start":6087.78,"end":6089.78,"text":"我們先讓這個林佳和林部長休息一下"},{"start":6089.78,"end":6091.78,"text":"等一下稍後"},{"start":6091.78,"end":6093.78,"text":"也會問到林部長"},{"start":6096.7,"end":6098.7,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6097.73,"end":6099.73,"text":"部長趕快喝水"},{"start":6099.73,"end":6101.73,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6101.19,"end":6103.19,"text":"我們今天講到這個沒宣"},{"start":6103.19,"end":6105.19,"text":"因為陸委會是主管這個"},{"start":6105.19,"end":6107.19,"text":"中國事務所以說"},{"start":6107.19,"end":6109.19,"text":"你知道中共每年砸多少全"},{"start":6109.19,"end":6111.19,"text":"在進行全球的大外宣"},{"start":6111.19,"end":6113.19,"text":"的行銷嗎你有數字嗎"},{"start":6113.19,"end":6115.19,"text":"我們基本上能夠掌握到"},{"start":6115.19,"end":6117.19,"text":"大概也都是中共官方公布的這個數據"},{"start":6117.19,"end":6119.19,"text":"但基本上可能他沒有"},{"start":6119.19,"end":6121.19,"text":"公布的這個數字恐怕是更高"},{"start":6121.19,"end":6123.19,"text":"所以譬如說以人員為例的話"},{"start":6123.19,"end":6125.19,"text":"像我們陸委會大概編制就是兩百多人"},{"start":6125.19,"end":6127.19,"text":"那我們知道中共"},{"start":6127.19,"end":6129.19,"text":"的這個對台事務的話他的人員就"},{"start":6129.19,"end":6131.19,"text":"差不多將近數十萬人"},{"start":6131.19,"end":6133.19,"text":"那在預算上來講的話他們更是宣稱說"},{"start":6133.19,"end":6135.19,"text":"統戰是無上限"},{"start":6135.19,"end":6137.19,"text":"所以包含像沒宣啦或包含像"},{"start":6137.19,"end":6139.19,"text":"其他這個議題來講我們我們出估"},{"start":6139.19,"end":6141.19,"text":"他的這個經費大概遠遠"},{"start":6141.19,"end":6143.19,"text":"是高過於我們這邊"},{"start":6143.19,"end":6145.19,"text":"好我給你一個數字喔這是我從自由時報找到的"},{"start":6145.19,"end":6147.19,"text":"那麼這是在今年三月的"},{"start":6147.19,"end":6149.19,"text":"報導就是中國全球的行銷費"},{"start":6149.19,"end":6151.19,"text":"是高達七十億美元到一百億"},{"start":6151.19,"end":6153.19,"text":"美元言下之意換算台幣"},{"start":6153.19,"end":6155.19,"text":"大概就是兩千兩百四十"},{"start":6155.19,"end":6157.19,"text":"億到三千兩百億"},{"start":6157.19,"end":6159.19,"text":"陸委會一年預算多少宣傳預算多少宣傳宣傳就好"},{"start":6162.22,"end":6164.22,"text":"我們的這個沒宣費一年大概就是一千多塊"},{"start":6164.22,"end":6166.22,"text":"好這真的果然是小蝦米對大鯨魚"},{"start":6166.22,"end":6168.22,"text":"這是幾百分之一啦"},{"start":6168.22,"end":6170.22,"text":"但是我要提到的是"},{"start":6170.22,"end":6172.22,"text":"我們今天談到的"},{"start":6172.22,"end":6174.22,"text":"這種所謂已經是"},{"start":6174.22,"end":6176.22,"text":"勢力上的不對等結果你們還被"},{"start":6176.22,"end":6178.22,"text":"砍光光啦但是我要先來"},{"start":6178.22,"end":6180.22,"text":"就事實來做詢問"},{"start":6180.22,"end":6182.22,"text":"因為呢我知道陸委會最近"},{"start":6182.22,"end":6184.22,"text":"不斷的在公布就是國人"},{"start":6184.22,"end":6186.22,"text":"附中尤其是具有軍公教身份"},{"start":6186.22,"end":6188.22,"text":"的時候就會被盤查"},{"start":6188.22,"end":6190.22,"text":"但是現在竟然有媒體說這個是個"},{"start":6190.22,"end":6192.22,"text":"假消息你們真的很慘耶"},{"start":6192.22,"end":6194.22,"text":"沒宣費被砍光就算了"},{"start":6194.22,"end":6196.22,"text":"你們現在公布新聞稿還被媒體說"},{"start":6196.22,"end":6198.22,"text":"是假消息這到底是真的還假的"},{"start":6198.22,"end":6200.22,"text":"因為也有人來跟我陳情喔"},{"start":6200.22,"end":6202.22,"text":"就是說他本身是高階軍官的"},{"start":6202.22,"end":6204.22,"text":"家屬結果"},{"start":6204.22,"end":6206.22,"text":"他只是家屬"},{"start":6206.22,"end":6208.22,"text":"中共既然是以說"},{"start":6209.2,"end":6211.2,"text":"他入住投訴之後"},{"start":6211.2,"end":6213.2,"text":"他的小孩沒有登記"},{"start":6213.2,"end":6215.2,"text":"身份證然後他就"},{"start":6215.2,"end":6217.2,"text":"隨便報了一個身份證結果"},{"start":6217.2,"end":6219.2,"text":"這個盤查的單位居然說"},{"start":6220.27,"end":6222.27,"text":"這個身份證不對耶"},{"start":6221.98,"end":6223.98,"text":"整個嚇到"},{"start":6223.98,"end":6225.98,"text":"我要問的就是現在我們高階將領"},{"start":6225.98,"end":6227.98,"text":"是不是整個不只是他的個資"},{"start":6227.98,"end":6229.98,"text":"全都外洩"},{"start":6229.98,"end":6231.98,"text":"連他的親屬他的家人的個資都外洩"},{"start":6231.98,"end":6233.98,"text":"都遭到查核嗎"},{"start":6233.98,"end":6235.98,"text":"中國掌控台灣的資訊"},{"start":6235.98,"end":6237.98,"text":"一定要這麼嚴重嗎"},{"start":6237.86,"end":6239.86,"text":"跟委員報告說說基本上"},{"start":6239.86,"end":6241.86,"text":"這個東西不是個案喔他應該是一個"},{"start":6241.86,"end":6243.86,"text":"系統性的風險正在逐步的提高當中"},{"start":6243.86,"end":6245.86,"text":"所以包含像是媒體"},{"start":6245.86,"end":6247.86,"text":"報導出來的這個這個軍官"},{"start":6247.86,"end":6249.86,"text":"高階軍官的這個子女的部分"},{"start":6249.86,"end":6251.86,"text":"還有前一陣子我們掌握到的像是兩位警察"},{"start":6251.86,"end":6253.86,"text":"的這個部分甚至在更早以前"},{"start":6253.86,"end":6255.86,"text":"有法官的這個部分我們都發現到"},{"start":6255.86,"end":6257.86,"text":"他們入境之後就直接被"},{"start":6257.86,"end":6259.86,"text":"特定的單位給帶走盤查"},{"start":6259.86,"end":6261.86,"text":"甚至是到他們下大的環境去詢問"},{"start":6261.86,"end":6263.86,"text":"那問的問題都非常的專業"},{"start":6263.86,"end":6265.86,"text":"而且都非常的針對性所以顯然就是說"},{"start":6265.86,"end":6267.86,"text":"他們事前就已經掌握到要入境的這些人"},{"start":6267.86,"end":6269.86,"text":"他們的背景他們過去"},{"start":6269.86,"end":6271.86,"text":"服務的一些單位甚至他們工作的對象"},{"start":6271.86,"end":6273.86,"text":"所以才會問的非常的到位的問題"},{"start":6273.86,"end":6275.86,"text":"表示他們是有備而來"},{"start":6275.86,"end":6277.86,"text":"所以我們在這邊陸委會大概也還是"},{"start":6277.86,"end":6279.86,"text":"會針對特定的人士"},{"start":6279.86,"end":6281.86,"text":"附路風險的部分來提醒國人"},{"start":6281.86,"end":6283.86,"text":"包含像是從事國安單位的"},{"start":6283.86,"end":6285.86,"text":"或者是安全單位的一些公務人員"},{"start":6285.86,"end":6287.86,"text":"另外還有特定的這個"},{"start":6287.86,"end":6289.86,"text":"宗教人士現在非必要的話"},{"start":6289.86,"end":6291.86,"text":"就請勿遣返"},{"start":6291.86,"end":6293.86,"text":"請勿遣往這個陸港澳地區"},{"start":6293.86,"end":6295.86,"text":"那這個還是我們陸委會基本的這個政策"},{"start":6295.86,"end":6297.86,"text":"好其實我認為"},{"start":6297.86,"end":6299.86,"text":"這個面對中國的所謂的"},{"start":6299.86,"end":6301.86,"text":"不論是法律戰心理戰"},{"start":6301.86,"end":6303.86,"text":"甚至於實質的就把手伸進台灣的滲透"},{"start":6303.86,"end":6305.86,"text":"我想其實在國防外交委員會的委員"},{"start":6305.86,"end":6307.86,"text":"因為還有其他的單位包括國安局"},{"start":6307.86,"end":6309.86,"text":"會來報告我們都非常的清楚"},{"start":6309.86,"end":6311.86,"text":"所以說面對這樣的消息"},{"start":6311.86,"end":6313.86,"text":"我覺得揭露是最重要的"},{"start":6313.86,"end":6315.86,"text":"所以本席還是鼓勵"},{"start":6315.86,"end":6317.86,"text":"陸委會必須定期的把這樣的資訊"},{"start":6317.86,"end":6319.86,"text":"讓國人知道"},{"start":6319.86,"end":6321.86,"text":"好另外主席我要有請"},{"start":6321.86,"end":6323.86,"text":"我要有請那個"},{"start":6324,"end":6326,"text":"外交部長林佳倫"},{"start":6327.38,"end":6329.38,"text":"好那沈副主委還是稍後"},{"start":6329.38,"end":6331.38,"text":"因為我剛剛特別問到了"},{"start":6331.38,"end":6333.38,"text":"就是中國"},{"start":6333.84,"end":6335.84,"text":"大外宣其實不要講大外宣"},{"start":6335.84,"end":6337.84,"text":"他們在做他們的宣傳"},{"start":6337.84,"end":6341.84,"text":"一年就有兩千兩百四十億到三千億"},{"start":6341.84,"end":6343.84,"text":"之間的宣傳費"},{"start":6343.84,"end":6345.84,"text":"然後因為本席是媒體出來"},{"start":6345.84,"end":6347.84,"text":"所以本席特別去查了"},{"start":6347.84,"end":6349.84,"text":"中國一家官媒叫做中國日報"},{"start":6349.84,"end":6351.84,"text":"他在2016年到2020年"},{"start":6351.84,"end":6355.84,"text":"向美國媒體支付的廣告費"},{"start":6355.84,"end":6357.84,"text":"就高達"},{"start":6357.84,"end":6361.84,"text":"新台幣六點零八億元"},{"start":6361.84,"end":6365.84,"text":"一間官媒都可以跟美國支付廣告費"},{"start":6365.84,"end":6367.84,"text":"他支付這個廣告費是為了什麼"},{"start":6369.63,"end":6371.63,"text":"部長你認為"},{"start":6371.63,"end":6373.63,"text":"專媒還要去買媒體"},{"start":6374.78,"end":6376.78,"text":"報告委員我們現在外館111個"},{"start":6376.78,"end":6378.78,"text":"我們很多外館都面對到中共的大使"},{"start":6378.78,"end":6380.78,"text":"不斷在刊登"},{"start":6380.78,"end":6382.78,"text":"在最大報"},{"start":6382.78,"end":6384.78,"text":"甚至有時候是扮板更多的"},{"start":6384.78,"end":6386.78,"text":"他們的立場或聲明"},{"start":6386.78,"end":6388.78,"text":"我們當然也會反駁"},{"start":6388.78,"end":6390.78,"text":"不過相對來講聲量"},{"start":6390.78,"end":6392.78,"text":"當然就沒有像他那麼大"},{"start":6392.78,"end":6394.78,"text":"那在美國當然我們那個北美市長"},{"start":6396.15,"end":6398.15,"text":"美國如果有那個"},{"start":6398.15,"end":6400.15,"text":"我們真的是沒有辦法去做這些宣傳廣告"},{"start":6400.15,"end":6402.15,"text":"因為其實單單我們日常運作的運費"},{"start":6402.15,"end":6404.15,"text":"其實美國現在"},{"start":6404.15,"end":6406.15,"text":"現在13變14個館"},{"start":6406.15,"end":6408.15,"text":"其實基本上都只能夠透過其他"},{"start":6410.76,"end":6412.76,"text":"免費的方式或是製造新聞"},{"start":6440.76,"end":6442.76,"text":"經濟海域談判的背後"},{"start":6442.76,"end":6444.76,"text":"現在已經被揭露了"},{"start":6444.76,"end":6446.76,"text":"其實帶風向的背後是有中國的認知戰"},{"start":6448.14,"end":6450.14,"text":"事實上部長你非常清楚"},{"start":6450.14,"end":6452.14,"text":"在美日的談判當中根本沒有提到"},{"start":6452.14,"end":6454.14,"text":"經濟海域但是網路上"},{"start":6454.14,"end":6456.14,"text":"所傳的這一個圖片"},{"start":6456.14,"end":6458.14,"text":"根本就是假消息"},{"start":6458.14,"end":6460.14,"text":"他用的是一個美國智庫"},{"start":6460.14,"end":6462.14,"text":"針對各國的經濟海域"},{"start":6462.14,"end":6464.14,"text":"所套上的一個圖"},{"start":6464.14,"end":6466.14,"text":"然後呢他特別的"},{"start":6466.14,"end":6468.14,"text":"只放上日本的"},{"start":6468.14,"end":6470.14,"text":"菲律賓的但是呢"},{"start":6470.14,"end":6472.14,"text":"故意掠取台灣的"},{"start":6472.14,"end":6474.14,"text":"經濟海域然後"},{"start":6474.14,"end":6476.14,"text":"就用這種假消息的方式"},{"start":6476.14,"end":6478.14,"text":"在做"},{"start":6477.53,"end":6479.53,"text":"法律戰認知戰然後"},{"start":6479.53,"end":6481.53,"text":"企圖其實是要掩蓋"},{"start":6481.53,"end":6483.53,"text":"當時中國騷擾我們東部海域"},{"start":6483.53,"end":6485.53,"text":"等於是一個"},{"start":6485.53,"end":6487.53,"text":"裡應外合但可悲的是"},{"start":6487.53,"end":6489.53,"text":"在我們國內有媒體"},{"start":6489.53,"end":6491.53,"text":"包括還有在野黨的政治人物"},{"start":6491.53,"end":6493.53,"text":"就配合著操作"},{"start":6494.59,"end":6496.59,"text":"這明明就是一個假圖假訊息"},{"start":6496.59,"end":6498.59,"text":"我想不只陸委會"},{"start":6498.59,"end":6500.59,"text":"包括外交部當時"},{"start":6500.59,"end":6502.59,"text":"也不斷的做澄清"},{"start":6502.59,"end":6504.59,"text":"對不對部長當時"},{"start":6504.59,"end":6506.59,"text":"外交部有澄清說在那一次"},{"start":6506.59,"end":6508.59,"text":"的談判當中其實是不涉及"},{"start":6508.59,"end":6510.59,"text":"所謂經濟海域的"},{"start":6510.59,"end":6512.59,"text":"那像面對這樣的狀況尤其是"},{"start":6512.59,"end":6514.59,"text":"中國投入將近"},{"start":6514.59,"end":6516.59,"text":"三千億的媒體"},{"start":6516.59,"end":6518.59,"text":"宣傳甚至於一家中國日報"},{"start":6518.59,"end":6520.59,"text":"都可以"},{"start":6520.59,"end":6522.59,"text":"數年來花六億"},{"start":6522.59,"end":6524.59,"text":"在買美國的媒體"},{"start":6524.59,"end":6526.59,"text":"那麼面對這種錯假訊息的時候"},{"start":6526.59,"end":6528.59,"text":"該怎麼應對"},{"start":6528.51,"end":6530.51,"text":"如果沒有宣傳費宣傳費"},{"start":6530.51,"end":6532.51,"text":"砍到零陸委會沒有宣傳費"},{"start":6532.51,"end":6534.51,"text":"外交部沒有宣傳費"},{"start":6534.51,"end":6536.51,"text":"然後再加上"},{"start":6536.51,"end":6538.51,"text":"裡應外合"},{"start":6538.51,"end":6540.51,"text":"那麼面對這種錯誤的訊息"},{"start":6540.51,"end":6542.51,"text":"我們去講喔"},{"start":6542.01,"end":6544.01,"text":"這個對於漁民來講"},{"start":6544.01,"end":6546.01,"text":"是會造成恐慌的"},{"start":6546.01,"end":6548.01,"text":"因為他們擔心他們接下來的"},{"start":6548.01,"end":6550.01,"text":"所謂作業的海域"},{"start":6549.71,"end":6551.71,"text":"是會被遭到限制"},{"start":6551.71,"end":6553.71,"text":"甚至於無法合法捕魚"},{"start":6553.71,"end":6555.71,"text":"但是對於台灣跟菲律賓之間"},{"start":6555.71,"end":6557.71,"text":"我們其實是有"},{"start":6557.52,"end":6559.52,"text":"台菲漁業執法的合作協定"},{"start":6561.93,"end":6563.93,"text":"台日也有漁業的作業協定"},{"start":6563.93,"end":6565.93,"text":"可是這些訊息"},{"start":6565.93,"end":6567.93,"text":"就會出不去啊"},{"start":6567.93,"end":6569.93,"text":"新聞稿有用嗎"},{"start":6569.93,"end":6571.93,"text":"而且國際上是不是就會被這樣的訊息"},{"start":6571.93,"end":6573.93,"text":"錯誤帶了風向"},{"start":6573.93,"end":6575.93,"text":"因為中國正在加碼宣傳"},{"start":6575.93,"end":6577.93,"text":"所以我要問的是"},{"start":6577.93,"end":6579.93,"text":"面對這樣的狀況"},{"start":6579.93,"end":6581.93,"text":"外交部跟陸委會"},{"start":6581.1,"end":6583.1,"text":"那麼你們該怎麼來做"},{"start":6583.1,"end":6585.1,"text":"因為我必須要講喔"},{"start":6585.1,"end":6587.1,"text":"今天的報告特別提到的是"},{"start":6587.1,"end":6589.1,"text":"國際宣傳的時機"},{"start":6589.1,"end":6591.1,"text":"那麼顯然我相信"},{"start":6591.1,"end":6593.1,"text":"包括在我家內的國民黨委員"},{"start":6593.1,"end":6595.1,"text":"也都是同意要國際宣傳的"},{"start":6595.1,"end":6597.1,"text":"但是如果你們擁有"},{"start":6597.1,"end":6599.1,"text":"經費了你們要如何的"},{"start":6599.1,"end":6601.1,"text":"去做這樣的宣傳"},{"start":6601.1,"end":6603.1,"text":"而這樣的宣傳其實是"},{"start":6603.1,"end":6605.1,"text":"捍衛國家主權"},{"start":6605.1,"end":6607.1,"text":"捍衛漁權而且是第一線的"},{"start":6607.1,"end":6609.1,"text":"跟中國作戰"},{"start":6609.1,"end":6611.1,"text":"這個事情是因為"},{"start":6611.1,"end":6613.1,"text":"血淋淋的教訓不只這一項"},{"start":6613.1,"end":6615.1,"text":"中國在做所謂認知作戰的"},{"start":6615.1,"end":6617.1,"text":"滲透甚至於法律戰"},{"start":6617.1,"end":6619.1,"text":"心理戰之外"},{"start":6619.1,"end":6621.1,"text":"他們是在灑金幣戰"},{"start":6622.34,"end":6624.34,"text":"那麼在這樣的狀況底下"},{"start":6624.34,"end":6626.34,"text":"我就請問林部長"},{"start":6626.34,"end":6628.34,"text":"還有神父主委"},{"start":6628.34,"end":6630.34,"text":"該怎麼樣應對"},{"start":6631.96,"end":6633.96,"text":"當然就是說"},{"start":6633.81,"end":6635.81,"text":"內容通路跟對象"},{"start":6635.81,"end":6637.81,"text":"我想宣傳"},{"start":6637.81,"end":6639.81,"text":"內容我們當然有嘛"},{"start":6639.81,"end":6641.81,"text":"可是如果沒有通路"},{"start":6641.39,"end":6643.39,"text":"其實你有時候有些宣傳是針對特定的對象"},{"start":6643.39,"end":6645.39,"text":"是要投射"},{"start":6645.39,"end":6647.39,"text":"不能說我自己用我的社群媒體"},{"start":6647.39,"end":6649.39,"text":"然後全世界都來看"},{"start":6649.39,"end":6651.39,"text":"沒有那麼影響力"},{"start":6651.39,"end":6653.39,"text":"所以確實在宣傳上是要很精準"},{"start":6653.39,"end":6655.39,"text":"而這個是有一些部分會"},{"start":6655.39,"end":6657.39,"text":"真的是跟媒宣的投射"},{"start":6657.39,"end":6659.39,"text":"是需要預算的"},{"start":6659.39,"end":6661.39,"text":"你才能在很快的時間裡面"},{"start":6661.39,"end":6663.39,"text":"很精準的傳達"},{"start":6663.39,"end":6665.39,"text":"那屬於戰略溝通是一回事"},{"start":6665.39,"end":6667.39,"text":"但宣傳是不可免的"},{"start":6667.39,"end":6669.39,"text":"這個部分我想"},{"start":6669.39,"end":6671.39,"text":"民主時代就是資訊"},{"start":6671.39,"end":6673.39,"text":"因為人民他做到的資訊"},{"start":6673.39,"end":6675.39,"text":"會決定他的判斷"},{"start":6675.39,"end":6677.39,"text":"比如第一時間"},{"start":6677.39,"end":6679.39,"text":"其實你看中共的反應這麼快"},{"start":6679.39,"end":6681.39,"text":"包括武警船包括所有"},{"start":6681.39,"end":6683.39,"text":"事實上他早就在我們東岸"},{"start":6683.39,"end":6685.39,"text":"在出路"},{"start":6685.39,"end":6687.39,"text":"他現在就用這個中醫做理由又擴張"},{"start":6687.39,"end":6689.39,"text":"我們就變Defensive"},{"start":6689.39,"end":6691.39,"text":"因為我們好像我們是不是被批准狀況外"},{"start":6691.39,"end":6693.39,"text":"事實上當然其實他們也都有講"},{"start":6693.39,"end":6695.39,"text":"這不涉及第三方"},{"start":6695.39,"end":6697.39,"text":"我們跟日飛之間也有我們的漁權"},{"start":6697.39,"end":6699.39,"text":"反彈的協議等等"},{"start":6699.39,"end":6701.39,"text":"但是講不清楚"},{"start":6701.39,"end":6703.39,"text":"我們就是沒有這樣一個很快速可以精準"},{"start":6703.39,"end":6705.39,"text":"投射去做媒宣"},{"start":6705.39,"end":6707.39,"text":"這樣的預算的話"},{"start":6707.39,"end":6709.39,"text":"我們的影響力當然"},{"start":6709.39,"end":6711.39,"text":"其實決戰可能就在第一瞬間"},{"start":6711.39,"end":6713.39,"text":"因為能不能印象一形成之後"},{"start":6713.39,"end":6715.39,"text":"你後續再多要去解釋"},{"start":6715.39,"end":6717.39,"text":"其實都很難因為新的議題又來了"},{"start":6717.39,"end":6719.39,"text":"為什麼本席會特別提這一題"},{"start":6719.39,"end":6721.39,"text":"因為這一題在六月初的時候"},{"start":6722.07,"end":6724.07,"text":"其實是在5月28號"},{"start":6724.07,"end":6726.07,"text":"日飛談判之後"},{"start":6726.07,"end":6728.07,"text":"6月初其實被繳了一池"},{"start":6728.07,"end":6730.07,"text":"非常大的新聞操作"},{"start":6730.07,"end":6732.07,"text":"但是事實上現在"},{"start":6732.07,"end":6734.07,"text":"再來回顧很多人忘記了"},{"start":6734.07,"end":6736.07,"text":"但是他的既知影響已經認為"},{"start":6736.07,"end":6738.07,"text":"是不是日飛已經親門踏戶"},{"start":6738.07,"end":6740.07,"text":"最後給一點時間給陸委會"},{"start":6740.07,"end":6742.07,"text":"不好意思主席我再請陸委會回應"},{"start":6742.07,"end":6744.07,"text":"謝謝委員我大概花一分鐘的時間"},{"start":6744.07,"end":6746.07,"text":"我想稍微提醒一下就是說"},{"start":6746.07,"end":6748.07,"text":"前陣子我們有注意到習近平出席了上海的"},{"start":6748.07,"end":6750.07,"text":"世界AI大會"},{"start":6750.07,"end":6752.07,"text":"他告訴我們未來中國在AI要跟全球南方國家合作"},{"start":6752.07,"end":6754.07,"text":"開源開放"},{"start":6754.07,"end":6756.07,"text":"他的開源指的就是說他們會製造"},{"start":6756.07,"end":6758.07,"text":"更多的訊息"},{"start":6758.07,"end":6760.07,"text":"然後開放給這些南方國家來做運用"},{"start":6760.07,"end":6762.07,"text":"目標就還是要去宣傳他的一中原則"},{"start":6762.07,"end":6764.07,"text":"所以未來在一些這個"},{"start":6764.07,"end":6766.07,"text":"訊息認知戰上面來講的話"},{"start":6766.07,"end":6768.07,"text":"中國會用更多的宣傳就回到"},{"start":6768.07,"end":6770.07,"text":"委員您剛剛提到的他們有非常多的經費"},{"start":6770.07,"end":6772.07,"text":"然後可以去製造很多"},{"start":6772.07,"end":6774.07,"text":"有利於他們的這種所謂的新聞跟訊息"},{"start":6774.07,"end":6776.07,"text":"那未來就會變成是他們的資料庫"},{"start":6776.07,"end":6778.07,"text":"放在AI上面"},{"start":6778.07,"end":6780.07,"text":"所以我們也會給國際的這個社會來去做運用"},{"start":6780.07,"end":6782.07,"text":"所以如果在這個部分我們安靜了"},{"start":6782.07,"end":6784.07,"text":"或者這個部分我們沒有辦法適時的回應的話"},{"start":6784.07,"end":6786.07,"text":"在整個網路的世界上"},{"start":6786.07,"end":6788.07,"text":"在整個AI的這個輿情上面來講"},{"start":6788.07,"end":6790.07,"text":"就會對台灣非常的不利"},{"start":6790.07,"end":6792.07,"text":"那陸委會這邊建議幾個基本的做法就是說"},{"start":6792.07,"end":6794.07,"text":"我們對內的部分來講還是要加大"},{"start":6794.07,"end":6796.07,"text":"對於國人的一個試讀"},{"start":6796.07,"end":6798.07,"text":"就是有一些訊息的來源或者訊息的真偽"},{"start":6798.07,"end":6800.07,"text":"應該要持續的告訴國人說要"},{"start":6800.07,"end":6802.07,"text":"盡可能去多一些這個這個了解"},{"start":6802.07,"end":6804.07,"text":"再來第二個在國際上來說的話"},{"start":6804.07,"end":6806.07,"text":"我們有兩個做法第一個是我們要尋找"},{"start":6806.07,"end":6808.07,"text":"我們有很多可以合作的夥伴"},{"start":6808.07,"end":6810.07,"text":"不一定是媒體本身也包含像是國會議員"},{"start":6810.07,"end":6812.07,"text":"有很多的友台小組他們都可以在"},{"start":6812.07,"end":6814.07,"text":"適當的時候替我們來講話"},{"start":6814.07,"end":6816.07,"text":"所以我們需要多多的跟他們來做溝通跟聯繫"},{"start":6816.07,"end":6818.07,"text":"那再來第三個的話就是我們要掌握"},{"start":6818.07,"end":6820.07,"text":"我們自己特有的這個資源喔"},{"start":6820.07,"end":6822.07,"text":"全世界現在都想了解兩岸都想了解中國"},{"start":6822.07,"end":6824.07,"text":"最了解中國的是台灣"},{"start":6824.07,"end":6826.07,"text":"所以當我們有掌握到這個獨門資源的時候"},{"start":6826.07,"end":6828.07,"text":"我們可以讓更多國家想要透過了解"},{"start":6828.07,"end":6830.07,"text":"中國然後來跟台灣接觸"},{"start":6830.07,"end":6832.07,"text":"這個時候我們就有講話的機會"},{"start":6832.07,"end":6834.07,"text":"所以我們也非常希望這個大院喔"},{"start":6834.07,"end":6836.07,"text":"就是我們多多的在這個宣傳也好"},{"start":6836.07,"end":6838.07,"text":"或者說這個國際交流"},{"start":6838.07,"end":6840.07,"text":"或者說對於中國的國情的研發"},{"start":6840.07,"end":6842.07,"text":"研究也好的這個經費"},{"start":6842.07,"end":6844.07,"text":"可以手下留情"},{"start":6844.07,"end":6846.07,"text":"好 本席特別要強調台灣不是中國的一部分"},{"start":6846.07,"end":6848.07,"text":"這個部分其實"},{"start":6848.07,"end":6850.07,"text":"他花三千億在做宣傳"},{"start":6850.07,"end":6852.07,"text":"甚至於一家中國的媒體"},{"start":6852.07,"end":6854.07,"text":"可以花六億"},{"start":6854.07,"end":6856.07,"text":"去買美國的媒體"},{"start":6856.07,"end":6858.07,"text":"他其實就是要用所謂宣傳的方式"},{"start":6858.07,"end":6860.07,"text":"掩蓋台灣讓台灣沒辦法發聲"},{"start":6860.07,"end":6862.07,"text":"所以兩個部會"},{"start":6862.07,"end":6864.07,"text":"就只能再辛苦一點了 加油"},{"start":6864.07,"end":6866.07,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6868.53,"end":6872.53,"text":"好 接下來請黃建斌委員上台諮詢"},{"start":6889.55,"end":6891.55,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":6891.55,"end":6893.55,"text":"請林佳龍部長"},{"start":6900.34,"end":6902.34,"text":"回合"},{"start":6901.4,"end":6903.4,"text":"部長好 早安 部長好"},{"start":6903.4,"end":6905.4,"text":"部長 前陣子我看了一部電影"},{"start":6905.4,"end":6907.4,"text":"就是那個影片的內容是敘述那個"},{"start":6907.4,"end":6909.4,"text":"主角他去美國的途中"},{"start":6909.4,"end":6911.4,"text":"因為家鄉發生了這個政變"},{"start":6911.4,"end":6913.4,"text":"然後政府被推翻"},{"start":6913.4,"end":6915.4,"text":"所以他持有的證件"},{"start":6915.4,"end":6917.4,"text":"沒有辦法被美國入境當局承認"},{"start":6917.4,"end":6919.4,"text":"被拒絕入境之後"},{"start":6919.4,"end":6921.4,"text":"他又沒有辦法回到國家"},{"start":6921.4,"end":6923.4,"text":"被迫自由在那個機場裡面"},{"start":6923.4,"end":6925.4,"text":"這個期間的這個故事"},{"start":6925.4,"end":6927.4,"text":"我想應該現場"},{"start":6927.4,"end":6929.4,"text":"也很多人看過這部片"},{"start":6929.4,"end":6931.4,"text":"那我本來以為這個只是電影的情節"},{"start":6931.4,"end":6933.4,"text":"不過沒想到最近那個"},{"start":6933.4,"end":6935.4,"text":"外界在盛傳說部長你"},{"start":6935.4,"end":6937.4,"text":"復日的時候也在日本機場上演"},{"start":6937.4,"end":6939.4,"text":"一樣的這個情況"},{"start":6939.4,"end":6941.4,"text":"我想請部長也能夠藉由這次質詢的"},{"start":6941.4,"end":6943.4,"text":"國人來說明一下這個事是不是事實"},{"start":6944.35,"end":6946.35,"text":"這不是事實"},{"start":6946.35,"end":6948.35,"text":"我是因為在日本"},{"start":6948.35,"end":6950.35,"text":"要"},{"start":6950.34,"end":6952.34,"text":"包機到馬紹爾群島"},{"start":6952.34,"end":6954.34,"text":"那個包機是早上七點"},{"start":6955.42,"end":6957.42,"text":"五點就要到機場"},{"start":6957.42,"end":6959.42,"text":"所以我是這個樣子"},{"start":6959.42,"end":6961.42,"text":"在前一晚"},{"start":6961.42,"end":6963.42,"text":"差不多十一點多"},{"start":6963.42,"end":6965.42,"text":"我才到達日本"},{"start":6965.42,"end":6967.42,"text":"這個機場"},{"start":6967.42,"end":6969.42,"text":"其實日本的機場都有很好的飯店"},{"start":6969.42,"end":6971.42,"text":"所以我基本上"},{"start":6971.42,"end":6973.42,"text":"純粹是方便"},{"start":6973.42,"end":6975.42,"text":"這樣的一個行程的安排"},{"start":6975.42,"end":6977.42,"text":"所以外面把他講成那麼多故事"},{"start":6977.42,"end":6979.42,"text":"真的是"},{"start":6979.42,"end":6981.42,"text":"與事實是很不合的"},{"start":6981.42,"end":6983.42,"text":"我也在這裡做個誠心"},{"start":6983.42,"end":6985.42,"text":"因為大家很好奇電影情節怎麼會發生"},{"start":6985.42,"end":6987.42,"text":"所以部長你也在那裡過夜"},{"start":6987.42,"end":6989.42,"text":"就在日本機場在過夜"},{"start":6989.42,"end":6991.42,"text":"像機場飯店你看台灣也有"},{"start":6991.42,"end":6993.42,"text":"設施好不好設備"},{"start":6993.42,"end":6995.42,"text":"都很舒適"},{"start":6995.42,"end":6997.42,"text":"那就是因為國際機場其實這個"},{"start":6997.42,"end":6999.42,"text":"這是很日常的事情"},{"start":6999.42,"end":7001.42,"text":"把他講成好像說"},{"start":7001.42,"end":7003.42,"text":"這個怎麼樣"},{"start":7003.42,"end":7005.42,"text":"因為這也會傷害我們台日關係"},{"start":7005.42,"end":7007.42,"text":"我才要在這裡做說明"},{"start":7007.42,"end":7009.42,"text":"這個就是本席要提到的就是說"},{"start":7009.42,"end":7011.42,"text":"其實今天我們"},{"start":7011.42,"end":7013.42,"text":"從剛開始這個影演有點開玩笑"},{"start":7013.42,"end":7015.42,"text":"我想要最想要表達的是說"},{"start":7015.42,"end":7017.42,"text":"我們今天想要問的是台日關係這件事情"},{"start":7017.42,"end":7019.42,"text":"眾所周知"},{"start":7019.42,"end":7021.42,"text":"那日本一直是台灣"},{"start":7021.42,"end":7023.42,"text":"最重要的民主夥伴之一"},{"start":7023.42,"end":7025.42,"text":"那也是台灣人民最感情"},{"start":7025.42,"end":7027.42,"text":"最深厚的友邦之一"},{"start":7027.42,"end":7029.42,"text":"這麼多來"},{"start":7029.42,"end":7031.42,"text":"不管是政宅的互助也好"},{"start":7031.42,"end":7033.42,"text":"防疫合作也好"},{"start":7033.42,"end":7035.42,"text":"國際國會的交流也好還是地方往來"},{"start":7035.42,"end":7037.42,"text":"也好都是"},{"start":7037.42,"end":7039.42,"text":"靠著這個長時間所累積"},{"start":7039.42,"end":7041.42,"text":"的互信所建立起來的這個關係"},{"start":7041.42,"end":7043.42,"text":"但是我其實"},{"start":7043.42,"end":7045.42,"text":"這陣子就出現一些讓人家很擔憂的訊息"},{"start":7045.42,"end":7047.42,"text":"就是說"},{"start":7048.57,"end":7050.57,"text":"前陣子我們行政院長不是到日本去看那個"},{"start":7050.57,"end":7052.57,"text":"WC"},{"start":7052.57,"end":7054.57,"text":"到東京看WC的賽事嗎"},{"start":7054.57,"end":7056.57,"text":"引發外界很多高度的這些議論"},{"start":7056.57,"end":7058.57,"text":"那我想問題不是去看棒球"},{"start":7058.57,"end":7060.57,"text":"這件事而是外界質疑說"},{"start":7060.57,"end":7062.57,"text":"在富裕之前我們是不是"},{"start":7062.57,"end":7064.57,"text":"有充分的跟日本方面"},{"start":7064.57,"end":7066.57,"text":"完成必要的協調"},{"start":7066.57,"end":7068.57,"text":"那是不是說有充分的"},{"start":7068.57,"end":7070.57,"text":"尊重日方相關的安排"},{"start":7070.57,"end":7072.57,"text":"還是說只是因為一股熱情"},{"start":7072.57,"end":7074.57,"text":"熱血就衝到日本去"},{"start":7074.57,"end":7076.57,"text":"我想這個事前如果沒有做好溝通的話"},{"start":7076.57,"end":7078.57,"text":"會造成對方的這個困擾"},{"start":7078.57,"end":7080.57,"text":"那是不是把等於把我們多年累積的"},{"start":7080.57,"end":7082.57,"text":"這些外交的默契"},{"start":7082.57,"end":7084.57,"text":"拿去冒險"},{"start":7084.57,"end":7086.57,"text":"我想這個不講這個外交不是比高調"},{"start":7086.57,"end":7088.57,"text":"因為是彼此的默契才是"},{"start":7088.57,"end":7090.57,"text":"跟尊重才重要的"},{"start":7090.57,"end":7092.57,"text":"那很多外交的工作其實"},{"start":7092.57,"end":7094.57,"text":"看不見也不能"},{"start":7094.57,"end":7096.57,"text":"你看不見也不能說破"},{"start":7096.57,"end":7098.57,"text":"那很多安排不是不能做"},{"start":7098.57,"end":7100.57,"text":"而是要在適當的時間裡面"},{"start":7100.57,"end":7102.57,"text":"適當的方式來完成它"},{"start":7102.57,"end":7104.57,"text":"因為一個環節如果沒有做好可能會影響到"},{"start":7104.57,"end":7106.57,"text":"雙方多年間的這個默契跟信任"},{"start":7106.57,"end":7108.57,"text":"所以我想要請教部長說"},{"start":7108.57,"end":7110.57,"text":"第一個我們當時部院長"},{"start":7110.57,"end":7112.57,"text":"去日本參觀WC的"},{"start":7112.57,"end":7114.57,"text":"活動"},{"start":7114.57,"end":7116.57,"text":"我們外交部是不是有先跟日本政府"},{"start":7116.57,"end":7118.57,"text":"完成事先的這個完成的協調"},{"start":7118.57,"end":7120.57,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":7120.77,"end":7122.77,"text":"因為行政院也就說明"},{"start":7122.77,"end":7124.77,"text":"這個是院長的私人行程"},{"start":7124.77,"end":7126.77,"text":"那也很單純"},{"start":7126.77,"end":7128.77,"text":"那當然對於日的"},{"start":7128.77,"end":7130.77,"text":"這個溝通"},{"start":7130.77,"end":7132.77,"text":"當然是有一定是有"},{"start":7132.77,"end":7134.77,"text":"先這個"},{"start":7134.77,"end":7136.77,"text":"就是表達"},{"start":7136.77,"end":7138.77,"text":"院長去的這個"},{"start":7138.77,"end":7140.77,"text":"行程嘛那這個"},{"start":7140.77,"end":7142.77,"text":"部分我想相對來講"},{"start":7142.77,"end":7144.77,"text":"讓這個行程單純化"},{"start":7144.77,"end":7146.77,"text":"所以我並沒有"},{"start":7146.77,"end":7148.77,"text":"理解嘛"},{"start":7148.77,"end":7150.77,"text":"外交部都沒有安排"},{"start":7151.17,"end":7153.17,"text":"因為"},{"start":7153.17,"end":7155.17,"text":"因為他是私人行程"},{"start":7155.17,"end":7157.17,"text":"看棒球那很特定"},{"start":7157.17,"end":7159.17,"text":"部長那個"},{"start":7159.17,"end":7161.17,"text":"他私人行程他身為行政院院長"},{"start":7161.17,"end":7163.17,"text":"他出門是"},{"start":7163.17,"end":7165.17,"text":"很重要的事情"},{"start":7165.17,"end":7167.17,"text":"包括水種都要跟在旁邊"},{"start":7167.17,"end":7169.17,"text":"所以一定有進行外交"},{"start":7169.17,"end":7171.17,"text":"上面的溝通"},{"start":7171.17,"end":7173.17,"text":"所以有溝通過"},{"start":7173.17,"end":7175.17,"text":"我們這邊是不是日本"},{"start":7175.17,"end":7177.17,"text":"有沒有掌握到"},{"start":7177.17,"end":7179.17,"text":"日方這邊是不是對這個相關的安排"},{"start":7179.17,"end":7181.17,"text":"有什麼疑慮或不同意見"},{"start":7181.17,"end":7183.17,"text":"因為日本也是一個民主國家"},{"start":7183.17,"end":7185.17,"text":"他是可以自由旅行的"},{"start":7185.17,"end":7187.17,"text":"那當然因為總是這個"},{"start":7187.17,"end":7189.17,"text":"政務官一定層級是"},{"start":7189.17,"end":7191.17,"text":"當然具有比較敏感性"},{"start":7191.17,"end":7193.17,"text":"所以這個部分怎麼樣共同能夠"},{"start":7193.17,"end":7195.17,"text":"讓他安排的好"},{"start":7195.17,"end":7197.17,"text":"這個應該是在交涉中"},{"start":7197.17,"end":7199.17,"text":"一定會觸及的事情"},{"start":7199.17,"end":7201.17,"text":"所以這整個完整的"},{"start":7201.17,"end":7203.17,"text":"實目就是這樣子"},{"start":7202.89,"end":7204.89,"text":"院長私人行程"},{"start":7204.89,"end":7206.89,"text":"但是我們外交部有事先跟日本來做溝通"},{"start":7206.89,"end":7208.89,"text":"結果日方這邊的反應是怎麼樣"},{"start":7213.62,"end":7215.62,"text":"就是自由旅行"},{"start":7215.62,"end":7217.62,"text":"自由旅行"},{"start":7217.62,"end":7219.62,"text":"都沒有已經這樣就對了"},{"start":7219.62,"end":7221.62,"text":"但是因為他具有一定的政治的敏感性"},{"start":7221.62,"end":7223.62,"text":"所以要怎麼樣能夠處理好"},{"start":7223.62,"end":7225.62,"text":"讓他"},{"start":7225.62,"end":7227.62,"text":"不會有什麼意外的發生"},{"start":7227.62,"end":7229.62,"text":"因為總是安全"},{"start":7229.62,"end":7231.62,"text":"還是很重要的"},{"start":7231.62,"end":7233.62,"text":"市長 民事部要請教你"},{"start":7233.62,"end":7235.62,"text":"我們應當去那裡"},{"start":7235.62,"end":7237.62,"text":"怎麼可能有相互的默契"},{"start":7237.62,"end":7239.62,"text":"一定有吧"},{"start":7238.66,"end":7240.66,"text":"不能替對方講"},{"start":7240.66,"end":7242.66,"text":"但是我想我們在外交上"},{"start":7242.66,"end":7244.66,"text":"都有一定的"},{"start":7244.66,"end":7246.66,"text":"就是說大家的"},{"start":7246.66,"end":7248.66,"text":"不管說默契也好或有一些規範"},{"start":7248.66,"end":7250.66,"text":"是存在的"},{"start":7250.66,"end":7252.66,"text":"為什麼會提到這個就是其實"},{"start":7252.66,"end":7254.66,"text":"因為媒體報導說"},{"start":7254.66,"end":7256.66,"text":"這件事情之後台日的關係好像降到一個冰點"},{"start":7256.66,"end":7258.66,"text":"那我想要請教"},{"start":7258.66,"end":7260.66,"text":"部長了不了解就是說"},{"start":7260.66,"end":7262.66,"text":"外界傳說我們Line今天的總統"},{"start":7262.66,"end":7264.66,"text":"有寫信給高市長嗎"},{"start":7264.66,"end":7266.66,"text":"有沒有這件事情"},{"start":7265.7,"end":7267.7,"text":"這個在元首"},{"start":7267.7,"end":7269.7,"text":"或者是說這種政府首長之間的行為"},{"start":7269.7,"end":7271.7,"text":"我不願在這裡說明"},{"start":7271.7,"end":7273.7,"text":"因為這個涉及到"},{"start":7273.7,"end":7275.7,"text":"社會也可能是運後"},{"start":7277.59,"end":7279.59,"text":"以前的首相"},{"start":7279.59,"end":7281.59,"text":"比較公開"},{"start":7281.59,"end":7283.59,"text":"比如說先前的安倍晉三前首相"},{"start":7283.59,"end":7285.59,"text":"他甚至都"},{"start":7285.59,"end":7287.59,"text":"很對外公開"},{"start":7287.59,"end":7289.59,"text":"還會回信"},{"start":7289.59,"end":7291.59,"text":"聽說這次寫完之後高市長"},{"start":7291.59,"end":7293.59,"text":"還已讀不回 有沒有這件事情"},{"start":7293.59,"end":7295.59,"text":"不會說有這樣的事情"},{"start":7295.59,"end":7297.59,"text":"日本人是很有禮貌的民族"},{"start":7297.59,"end":7299.59,"text":"部長你不是說你不知道"},{"start":7299.59,"end":7301.59,"text":"但是我沒有去實設特定的"},{"start":7301.59,"end":7303.59,"text":"什麼信"},{"start":7305.25,"end":7307.25,"text":"所以部長"},{"start":7307.25,"end":7309.25,"text":"傳言跟事實是不合的"},{"start":7309.25,"end":7311.25,"text":"因為我們都了解"},{"start":7311.25,"end":7313.25,"text":"其實高市長苗首相"},{"start":7313.25,"end":7315.25,"text":"他是一個很有特色的人"},{"start":7315.25,"end":7317.25,"text":"他不會說"},{"start":7317.25,"end":7319.25,"text":"因為什麼樣的事情"},{"start":7319.25,"end":7321.25,"text":"其實台灣跟日本的關係"},{"start":7321.25,"end":7323.25,"text":"除了我們是"},{"start":7323.25,"end":7325.25,"text":"民主這些自由"},{"start":7325.25,"end":7327.25,"text":"人權理念相近之外"},{"start":7327.25,"end":7329.25,"text":"其實有非常多的交流"},{"start":7329.25,"end":7331.25,"text":"跟合作"},{"start":7331.25,"end":7333.25,"text":"當然因為在外交上"},{"start":7333.25,"end":7335.25,"text":"我們知道有第三方"},{"start":7335.25,"end":7337.25,"text":"我們都必須要做好"},{"start":7337.25,"end":7339.25,"text":"相對的處理"},{"start":7339.54,"end":7341.54,"text":"部長其實我們很擔心"},{"start":7341.54,"end":7343.54,"text":"多年累積來的情誼"},{"start":7343.54,"end":7345.54,"text":"因為一個不小心"},{"start":7345.54,"end":7347.54,"text":"其實要強調說"},{"start":7347.54,"end":7349.54,"text":"不會受這個單一事情的影響"},{"start":7349.54,"end":7351.54,"text":"傳言的關係"},{"start":7351.54,"end":7353.54,"text":"其實都是越來越好"},{"start":7353.54,"end":7355.54,"text":"包括現在的狀況"},{"start":7355.54,"end":7357.54,"text":"也是一樣 都溝通很順暢"},{"start":7357.54,"end":7359.54,"text":"很多的交流合作"},{"start":7359.54,"end":7361.54,"text":"都不受周設"},{"start":7361.54,"end":7363.54,"text":"因為什麼單獨事件"},{"start":7363.54,"end":7365.54,"text":"有時候因為當下有各方的報導"},{"start":7365.54,"end":7367.54,"text":"有一些是"},{"start":7367.54,"end":7369.54,"text":"真實性如何"},{"start":7369.54,"end":7371.54,"text":"都有待去確認"},{"start":7371.54,"end":7373.54,"text":"不過這台日關係並沒有受"},{"start":7373.54,"end":7375.54,"text":"任何單一事件"},{"start":7375.54,"end":7377.54,"text":"因為說這個血清沒有毀"},{"start":7377.54,"end":7379.54,"text":"以毒不回這件事情影響了"},{"start":7379.54,"end":7381.54,"text":"我們想不常理判斷"},{"start":7381.54,"end":7383.54,"text":"不可能有那樣的事情"},{"start":7383.54,"end":7385.54,"text":"為什麼以毒不回"},{"start":7385.54,"end":7387.54,"text":"我不是說這個信息一定在哪裡"},{"start":7387.54,"end":7389.54,"text":"我是說這個都是假設性的"},{"start":7389.54,"end":7391.54,"text":"猜測的 但是與事實都不合"},{"start":7391.54,"end":7393.54,"text":"部長我想"},{"start":7393.54,"end":7395.54,"text":"台日關係是我們台灣最"},{"start":7395.54,"end":7397.54,"text":"外交的資產是一樣"},{"start":7397.54,"end":7399.54,"text":"我們不容許"},{"start":7399.5,"end":7401.5,"text":"任何人的親策跟報竟"},{"start":7401.5,"end":7403.5,"text":"把這個多年建立來"},{"start":7403.5,"end":7405.5,"text":"一定要建立在信任基礎上"},{"start":7405.5,"end":7407.5,"text":"因為我們這幾年"},{"start":7407.5,"end":7409.5,"text":"所累積下來的這些"},{"start":7409.5,"end":7411.5,"text":"信任跟基礎是不允許"},{"start":7411.5,"end":7413.5,"text":"這樣一個小小的錯誤造成"},{"start":7413.5,"end":7415.5,"text":"彼此之間的隔閡"},{"start":7415.5,"end":7417.5,"text":"這個是本期"},{"start":7417.5,"end":7419.5,"text":"我們也期待說未來我們在外交上"},{"start":7419.5,"end":7421.5,"text":"如果有包括不管是"},{"start":7421.5,"end":7423.5,"text":"主任長的這個動作"},{"start":7423.5,"end":7425.5,"text":"能夠更"},{"start":7425.64,"end":7427.64,"text":"小心一點 更不用造成誤會"},{"start":7427.64,"end":7429.64,"text":"不然這個真的是得不償失"},{"start":7429.64,"end":7431.64,"text":"比賽輸了可以重來"},{"start":7431.64,"end":7433.64,"text":"那外交如果一旦"},{"start":7435.44,"end":7437.44,"text":"破滅之後要再回復就很困難了"},{"start":7437.44,"end":7439.44,"text":"部長是不是"},{"start":7439.44,"end":7441.44,"text":"確實同意 其實台灣"},{"start":7441.44,"end":7443.44,"text":"外交空間是有的"},{"start":7443.44,"end":7445.44,"text":"但是必須要很妥善的處理"},{"start":7445.44,"end":7447.44,"text":"避免意外 像我出訪"},{"start":7447.44,"end":7449.44,"text":"很多是事後才報導"},{"start":7449.44,"end":7451.44,"text":"也是基於大家的默契"},{"start":7451.44,"end":7453.44,"text":"共識 那怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":7453.44,"end":7455.44,"text":"不要 有時候會"},{"start":7455.44,"end":7457.44,"text":"有一些意外發生 因為"},{"start":7457.44,"end":7459.44,"text":"有時候就不是我們當事人的意思"},{"start":7459.44,"end":7461.44,"text":"但是結果有一些外面的"},{"start":7461.44,"end":7463.44,"text":"報導或什麼 這個時候怎麼共同"},{"start":7463.44,"end":7465.44,"text":"來把它處理好"},{"start":7465.44,"end":7467.44,"text":"這個時候也是很重要"},{"start":7467.44,"end":7469.44,"text":"有一些會造成一些誤會"},{"start":7469.44,"end":7471.44,"text":"也謝謝今天部長把整個"},{"start":7471.44,"end":7473.44,"text":"完整的始末說一下 在日本"},{"start":7473.44,"end":7475.44,"text":"國會這件事情讓大家知道了"},{"start":7475.44,"end":7477.44,"text":"謝謝你的這個讓我有機會"},{"start":7477.44,"end":7479.44,"text":"謝謝部長 如果日本他們機場"},{"start":7479.44,"end":7481.44,"text":"也有不錯的設施也可以回來提供給我們的交通部"},{"start":7481.44,"end":7483.44,"text":"做為未來我們"},{"start":7483.44,"end":7485.44,"text":"我們桃園機場"},{"start":7485.44,"end":7487.44,"text":"我們的那個過境旅館"},{"start":7487.44,"end":7489.44,"text":"也蠻俗事的"},{"start":7489.44,"end":7491.44,"text":"他們也很俗事"},{"start":7491.44,"end":7493.44,"text":"很厚心"},{"start":7495.67,"end":7497.67,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7498,"end":7500,"text":"我們接下來請王安祥委員上台諮詢"},{"start":7508.07,"end":7510.07,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":7510.07,"end":7512.07,"text":"有請林佳龍部長"},{"start":7518.21,"end":7520.21,"text":"部長早 我也好"},{"start":7519.99,"end":7521.99,"text":"我想這個就"},{"start":7521.99,"end":7523.99,"text":"這個立法院這邊其實對於外交部"},{"start":7523.99,"end":7525.99,"text":"在拓展外交的經費上"},{"start":7525.99,"end":7527.99,"text":"其實大家都是一直大力支持"},{"start":7528.81,"end":7530.81,"text":"那"},{"start":7530.81,"end":7532.81,"text":"不過我二月才來 不過就發生了好幾件事情"},{"start":7534.01,"end":7536.01,"text":"像這個第一件事大概就是跟立陶宛有關"},{"start":7536.01,"end":7538.01,"text":"他又要叫我們代表處做一些更名"},{"start":7538.01,"end":7540.01,"text":"後來又有南非"},{"start":7540.01,"end":7542.01,"text":"對我們的辦事處"},{"start":7542.01,"end":7544.01,"text":"也有一些要我們撤離首都"},{"start":7544.01,"end":7546.01,"text":"那剛剛我看到其他的委員"},{"start":7546.01,"end":7548.01,"text":"其實也有在講這個八牛的事情"},{"start":7548.01,"end":7550.01,"text":"不過這個最新的"},{"start":7550.01,"end":7552.01,"text":"應該跟這個泰國的總理有關"},{"start":7552.01,"end":7554.01,"text":"因為泰國總理他好像硬要到中國"},{"start":7554.01,"end":7556.01,"text":"去出席一個人工智能大會"},{"start":7556.01,"end":7558.01,"text":"而且會晤了他們"},{"start":7558.01,"end":7560.01,"text":"他們的這個相關的人士"},{"start":7560.01,"end":7562.01,"text":"那會後他發表了一個"},{"start":7562.01,"end":7564.01,"text":"一個中共跟泰國的聯合聲明"},{"start":7566.01,"end":7568.01,"text":"他就講了幾件事情"},{"start":7568.01,"end":7570.01,"text":"包含台灣是中國領土不可分割的一部分"},{"start":7570.01,"end":7572.01,"text":"那我想外交部也發了聲明"},{"start":7572.01,"end":7574.01,"text":"就一點時間讓這個部長"},{"start":7574.01,"end":7576.01,"text":"是不是可以表達一下我們的立場"},{"start":7576.01,"end":7578.01,"text":"是 先表達我們對於"},{"start":7578.01,"end":7580.01,"text":"就是泰國政府"},{"start":7580.01,"end":7582.01,"text":"負重中國"},{"start":7582.01,"end":7584.01,"text":"扭曲矮化"},{"start":7584.01,"end":7586.01,"text":"台灣的這個地位"},{"start":7586.01,"end":7588.01,"text":"我們表達這個抗議"},{"start":7588.01,"end":7590.01,"text":"然後也對於泰國政府"},{"start":7590.01,"end":7592.01,"text":"這樣的一個"},{"start":7592.01,"end":7594.01,"text":"雖然是被脅迫"},{"start":7594.01,"end":7596.01,"text":"但是我們表達這個失望跟遺憾"},{"start":7596.01,"end":7598.01,"text":"因為也提醒"},{"start":7598.01,"end":7600.01,"text":"台泰之間"},{"start":7600.01,"end":7602.01,"text":"有很好的這個經貿"},{"start":7602.01,"end":7604.01,"text":"人民的往來"},{"start":7604.01,"end":7606.01,"text":"那也很多的投資"},{"start":7606.01,"end":7608.01,"text":"這個去講"},{"start":7608.01,"end":7610.01,"text":"因為這個裡面會涉及到"},{"start":7610.01,"end":7612.01,"text":"如果說把"},{"start":7612.01,"end":7614.01,"text":"負重中國的一中原則的這些說法"},{"start":7614.01,"end":7616.01,"text":"甚至讓他可以以此來"},{"start":7616.01,"end":7618.01,"text":"對於海外"},{"start":7618.01,"end":7620.01,"text":"包括我們台灣的這些投資都會有影響"},{"start":7620.01,"end":7622.01,"text":"這個是不利於傳統的"},{"start":7622.01,"end":7624.01,"text":"跟泰國這些關係都不錯"},{"start":7624.01,"end":7626.01,"text":"他們給我們的免菅"},{"start":7626.01,"end":7628.01,"text":"讓我們到泰國去做一些投資"},{"start":7628.01,"end":7630.01,"text":"我們可以說明一下"},{"start":7630.01,"end":7632.01,"text":"其實我們在外交上的空間是很大"},{"start":7632.01,"end":7634.01,"text":"而且大家都看到"},{"start":7634.01,"end":7636.01,"text":"中共只是在強迫他那些"},{"start":7636.01,"end":7638.01,"text":"他的比較負重的國家"},{"start":7638.01,"end":7640.01,"text":"其實是"},{"start":7640.01,"end":7642.01,"text":"他沒有自信"},{"start":7642.01,"end":7644.01,"text":"每個聲明都要去加這一段"},{"start":7644.01,"end":7646.01,"text":"或G7或印太第一島鏈"},{"start":7646.01,"end":7648.01,"text":"其實相對來講對中共"},{"start":7648.01,"end":7650.01,"text":"的這個威脅"},{"start":7650.01,"end":7652.01,"text":"大家都都是感同身受"},{"start":7652.01,"end":7654.01,"text":"所以也在觀理念上也支持台灣"},{"start":7654.01,"end":7656.01,"text":"可是中共其實他就去"},{"start":7656.01,"end":7658.01,"text":"去迫使那些全球"},{"start":7658.01,"end":7660.01,"text":"南方的國家"},{"start":7660.01,"end":7662.01,"text":"幾乎已經到達就是"},{"start":7662.01,"end":7664.01,"text":"凡事都要先念一下一中原則"},{"start":7664.01,"end":7666.01,"text":"這個是他沒有自信"},{"start":7666.01,"end":7668.01,"text":"也是我們外交上的突破"},{"start":7668.01,"end":7670.01,"text":"另外他也是在做某種反制"},{"start":7670.01,"end":7672.01,"text":"比如說我們有些突破之後他一定會在一些"},{"start":7672.01,"end":7674.01,"text":"外交場合上他會想要討回去"},{"start":7674.01,"end":7676.01,"text":"這外交的攻防"},{"start":7676.01,"end":7678.01,"text":"實際是撐一把動全身"},{"start":7678.01,"end":7680.01,"text":"有時候你看比如說PNG"},{"start":7680.01,"end":7682.01,"text":"巴布亞尼幾內亞這個事情"},{"start":7682.01,"end":7684.01,"text":"他當然是醞釀很久"},{"start":7684.01,"end":7686.01,"text":"為什麼這個時候出手給了什麼利益"},{"start":7686.01,"end":7688.01,"text":"這個都有他全盤在"},{"start":7688.01,"end":7690.01,"text":"做我們攻防"},{"start":7690.01,"end":7692.01,"text":"所以這個時候我們當然"},{"start":7692.01,"end":7694.01,"text":"所以我剛剛講了很多"},{"start":7694.01,"end":7696.01,"text":"所以我想這次泰國我們要不要一些比較"},{"start":7696.01,"end":7698.01,"text":"比較明顯的一些作為"},{"start":7698.01,"end":7700.01,"text":"來宣示我們的主權"},{"start":7700.01,"end":7702.01,"text":"我們有台灣的異常"},{"start":7702.01,"end":7704.01,"text":"我們也公開之外"},{"start":7704.01,"end":7706.01,"text":"我們當然也會去交涉"},{"start":7706.01,"end":7708.01,"text":"我們也希望就是說"},{"start":7708.01,"end":7710.01,"text":"泰國政府其實"},{"start":7710.01,"end":7712.01,"text":"台灣其實在包括免簽"},{"start":7712.01,"end":7714.01,"text":"包括我們的這些"},{"start":7714.01,"end":7716.01,"text":"有關於這個投資"},{"start":7716.01,"end":7718.01,"text":"這個保障相關的這些"},{"start":7718.01,"end":7720.01,"text":"其實都是有進展的"},{"start":7720.01,"end":7722.01,"text":"在這幾年"},{"start":7722.01,"end":7724.01,"text":"這個行為其實"},{"start":7724.01,"end":7726.01,"text":"在出現之前"},{"start":7726.01,"end":7728.01,"text":"其實我們的了解"},{"start":7728.01,"end":7730.01,"text":"其實泰方也是"},{"start":7730.01,"end":7732.01,"text":"他們主觀上並不是要這樣"},{"start":7732.01,"end":7734.01,"text":"可是因為中共幾乎是"},{"start":7734.01,"end":7736.01,"text":"緊迫盯人"},{"start":7736.01,"end":7738.01,"text":"凡是任何的場合"},{"start":7738.01,"end":7740.01,"text":"這個也是讓中共其實是"},{"start":7740.01,"end":7742.01,"text":"為了這個說去達到他政治的目標"},{"start":7742.01,"end":7744.01,"text":"其實是在其他地方給予一些"},{"start":7744.01,"end":7746.01,"text":"可能威脅利誘"},{"start":7746.01,"end":7748.01,"text":"我們必須要溝通"},{"start":7748.01,"end":7750.01,"text":"我們也必須要共同來做一些"},{"start":7750.01,"end":7752.01,"text":"修復"},{"start":7752.01,"end":7754.01,"text":"未來一起能夠應處"},{"start":7754.01,"end":7756.01,"text":"好那請這個部長"},{"start":7756.01,"end":7758.01,"text":"有一些"},{"start":7758.01,"end":7760.01,"text":"希望能夠應起來"},{"start":7760.01,"end":7762.01,"text":"跟今天主題比較相關的"},{"start":7762.01,"end":7764.01,"text":"其實前幾天AIT有發聲明"},{"start":7764.01,"end":7766.01,"text":"就是在南海"},{"start":7766.01,"end":7768.01,"text":"南海安沙那邊"},{"start":7768.01,"end":7770.01,"text":"中國海警有打傷"},{"start":7770.01,"end":7772.01,"text":"飛國士兵的狀況"},{"start":7772.01,"end":7774.01,"text":"不過他們那個圖非常有趣"},{"start":7774.01,"end":7776.01,"text":"那看起來那一塊"},{"start":777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了解"},{"start":7876.24,"end":7878.24,"text":"那今天是十週年"},{"start":7878.24,"end":7880.24,"text":"南海爭議的十週年"},{"start":7880.24,"end":7882.24,"text":"那當然這個"},{"start":7882.24,"end":7884.24,"text":"每次尤其是我們十一段"},{"start":7884.24,"end":7886.24,"text":"其實都有很多的爭議"},{"start":7886.24,"end":7888.24,"text":"那不曉得部長對於"},{"start":7888.24,"end":7890.24,"text":"包含剛剛那個事件"},{"start":7890.24,"end":7892.24,"text":"其實每次看起來"},{"start":7892.24,"end":7894.24,"text":"我們都在管轄的部分"},{"start":7894.24,"end":7896.24,"text":"那如果說有一些"},{"start":7896.24,"end":7898.24,"text":"像這些 過去有一些"},{"start":7898.24,"end":7900.24,"text":"像不管說中國 其他國家"},{"start":7900.24,"end":7902.24,"text":"其實對於這個 在裡面發生的衝突"},{"start":7902.24,"end":7904.24,"text":"台灣是不是可以"},{"start":7904.24,"end":7906.24,"text":"更進一步的表達一些我們的立場"},{"start":7906.24,"end":7908.24,"text":"覺得那個還是可能是我們的主權"},{"start":7908.24,"end":7910.24,"text":"可以宣示的地方"},{"start":7910.24,"end":7912.24,"text":"我們有宣示 但是很微妙"},{"start":7912.24,"end":7914.24,"text":"而且要很謹慎 是因為中華人民共和國"},{"start":7914.24,"end":7916.24,"text":"透過我們的宣示"},{"start":7916.24,"end":7918.24,"text":"其實有時候在行使"},{"start":7918.24,"end":7920.24,"text":"他認為的管轄權"},{"start":7920.24,"end":7922.24,"text":"包括飛機 無人機"},{"start":7922.24,"end":7924.24,"text":"或者是一些船艦"},{"start":7924.24,"end":7926.24,"text":"所以這個其實我們面對到的是兩面"},{"start":7926.24,"end":7928.24,"text":"一方面是我們要對價"},{"start":7928.24,"end":7930.24,"text":"所以我們不知道我們到底要"},{"start":7930.24,"end":7932.24,"text":"採取什麼樣的對價"},{"start":7932.24,"end":7934.24,"text":"對 我們要表達立場 但不能被中共利用"},{"start":7934.24,"end":7936.24,"text":"這一個怎麼樣 然後我們跟一些國家"},{"start":7936.24,"end":7938.24,"text":"其實又有共同的利害"},{"start":7938.24,"end":7940.24,"text":"但是也有衝突"},{"start":7940.24,"end":7942.24,"text":"可是衝突我們不贊成"},{"start":7942.24,"end":7944.24,"text":"用武力的方式來解決"},{"start":7944.24,"end":7946.24,"text":"應該透過和平的手段"},{"start":7946.24,"end":7948.24,"text":"另外就是"},{"start":7948.24,"end":7950.24,"text":"台灣應該要參與"},{"start":7950.24,"end":7952.24,"text":"再來就是我們希望透過"},{"start":7952.24,"end":7954.24,"text":"各自爭議 共同開發"},{"start":7954.24,"end":7956.24,"text":"來做一些比較建設性的項目"},{"start":7956.24,"end":7958.24,"text":"台灣願意以這個態度"},{"start":7958.24,"end":7960.24,"text":"來扮演一個"},{"start":7960.24,"end":7962.24,"text":"在這個南海地區"},{"start":7962.24,"end":7964.24,"text":"一個比較積極的"},{"start":7964.24,"end":7966.24,"text":"正向的一個"},{"start":7966.24,"end":7968.24,"text":"利害關係的人"},{"start":7968.24,"end":7970.24,"text":"我想以部長的能力應該可以好好的處理這些事情"},{"start":7970.24,"end":7972.24,"text":"另外最後"},{"start":7972.24,"end":7974.24,"text":"因為我長期都在勞動界"},{"start":7974.24,"end":7976.24,"text":"剛剛我看到其他委員講到強迫勞動的部分"},{"start":7976.24,"end":7978.24,"text":"現在301馬上"},{"start":7978.24,"end":7980.24,"text":"美國可能"},{"start":7980.24,"end":7982.24,"text":"報導說就是要用強迫勞動"},{"start":7982.24,"end":7984.24,"text":"剛剛部長也回答了很多"},{"start":7984.24,"end":7986.24,"text":"像經濟部那邊的一些"},{"start":7986.24,"end":7988.24,"text":"狀況"},{"start":7988.24,"end":7990.24,"text":"是不是有透過一些外交的手段"},{"start":7990.24,"end":7992.24,"text":"可以跟美國再來做一些宣示說"},{"start":7992.24,"end":7994.24,"text":"我們其實已經不是"},{"start":7994.24,"end":7996.24,"text":"有這麼多問題的一個地方"},{"start":7996.24,"end":7998.24,"text":"的國家"},{"start":7998.24,"end":8000.24,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實美方知道台灣做得很好"},{"start":8000.24,"end":8002.24,"text":"它這個是談判的策略"},{"start":8002.24,"end":8004.24,"text":"因為就是ART"},{"start":8004.24,"end":8006.24,"text":"要用憲法的這個解釋"},{"start":8006.24,"end":8008.24,"text":"所以它現在"},{"start":8008.24,"end":8010.24,"text":"時間很趕"},{"start":8010.24,"end":8012.24,"text":"它就可以用的工具相關"},{"start":8012.24,"end":8014.24,"text":"裡面的工具都拿出來"},{"start":8014.24,"end":8016.24,"text":"實質上我們的理解"},{"start":8016.24,"end":8018.24,"text":"其實台灣並沒有"},{"start":8018.24,"end":8020.24,"text":"像有一些國家"},{"start":8020.24,"end":8022.24,"text":"那樣子強迫勞動"},{"start":8022.24,"end":8024.24,"text":"當然有時候發生個案我們就好好把個案處理好"},{"start":8024.24,"end":8026.24,"text":"可是就通案上來講"},{"start":8026.24,"end":8028.24,"text":"台灣是表現非常"},{"start":8028.24,"end":8030.24,"text":"但有一些法令或是人權"},{"start":8030.24,"end":8032.24,"text":"相關的這些國際"},{"start":8032.24,"end":8034.24,"text":"條約或什麼"},{"start":8034.24,"end":8036.24,"text":"我們就是要"},{"start":8036.24,"end":8038.24,"text":"遵守"},{"start":8038.24,"end":8040.24,"text":"我們自我要求"},{"start":8040.24,"end":8042.24,"text":"當然有一些像漁工"},{"start":8042.24,"end":8044.24,"text":"我們的船"},{"start":8044.24,"end":8046.24,"text":"這當然有一些涉及到"},{"start":8046.24,"end":8048.24,"text":"管理或經營的模式"},{"start":8048.24,"end":8050.24,"text":"這個當然要不斷的精進"},{"start":8050.24,"end":8052.24,"text":"可是怎麼樣我能夠確保我們的漁業"},{"start":8052.24,"end":8054.24,"text":"不受傷害"},{"start":8054.24,"end":8056.24,"text":"其實這個都要很細緻"},{"start":8056.24,"end":8058.24,"text":"但我要講的就是請大家放心"},{"start":8058.24,"end":8060.24,"text":"台灣不管是所謂的"},{"start":8060.24,"end":8062.24,"text":"強迫勞動"},{"start":8062.24,"end":8064.24,"text":"或者是所謂的"},{"start":8064.24,"end":8066.24,"text":"這些行為上台灣都是"},{"start":8066.24,"end":8068.24,"text":"現在其實的標準"},{"start":8068.24,"end":8070.24,"text":"我們自我要求都相當的高"},{"start":8070.24,"end":8072.24,"text":"其實就關稅的談判"},{"start":8072.24,"end":8074.24,"text":"大家要有信心"},{"start":8074.24,"end":8076.24,"text":"雖然ART現在"},{"start":8076.24,"end":8078.24,"text":"因為涉及到"},{"start":8078.24,"end":8080.24,"text":"違憲解釋"},{"start":8080.24,"end":8082.24,"text":"可是它還有其他的法源拿來用"},{"start":8082.24,"end":8084.24,"text":"在時間內我們都可以得到相對"},{"start":8084.24,"end":8086.24,"text":"比較好的就是不管是關稅"},{"start":8086.24,"end":8088.24,"text":"或是有關於"},{"start":8088.24,"end":8090.24,"text":"貿易或投資"},{"start":8090.24,"end":8092.24,"text":"供應鏈上面比較好"},{"start":8092.24,"end":8094.24,"text":"對我們權益的保障"},{"start":8094.24,"end":8096.24,"text":"那因為我是勞動學者"},{"start":8096.24,"end":8098.24,"text":"所以我這個不瞞部長說"},{"start":8098.24,"end":8100.24,"text":"我最近也在積極的"},{"start":8100.24,"end":8102.24,"text":"在跟勞動部或經濟部"},{"start":8102.24,"end":8104.24,"text":"或是漁業署這邊都在做一些協調"},{"start":8104.24,"end":8106.24,"text":"希望真正的在這個方面"},{"start":8106.24,"end":8108.24,"text":"有一些進展"},{"start":8108.24,"end":8110.24,"text":"不要再動不動就被拿來做威脅"},{"start":8110.24,"end":8112.24,"text":"那也請部長我們"},{"start":8112.24,"end":8114.24,"text":"多多可以跟我們一起協助"},{"start":8114.24,"end":8116.24,"text":"我們一起來努力"},{"start":8116.24,"end":8118.24,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8119.66,"end":8121.66,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":8121.66,"end":8123.66,"text":"我們待會許巧欣委員質詢"},{"start":8123.66,"end":8125.66,"text":"結束以後休息五分鐘"},{"start":8125.66,"end":8127.66,"text":"現在請許巧欣委員上台"},{"start":8127.66,"end":8129.66,"text":"質詢謝謝"},{"start":8130.47,"end":8132.47,"text":"謝謝昭偉"},{"start":8132.47,"end":8134.47,"text":"我們想有請林佳龍部長"},{"start":8134.64,"end":8136.64,"text":"然後請部長"},{"start":8141.12,"end":8143.12,"text":"部長好"},{"start":8143.12,"end":8145.12,"text":"我想我們都很關心這個"},{"start":8145.12,"end":8147.12,"text":"八紐的這個關閉我國"},{"start":8147.12,"end":8149.12,"text":"住處的問題"},{"start":8149.12,"end":8151.12,"text":"那第一個問題是說我們"},{"start":8151.12,"end":8153.12,"text":"報導寫到說八紐這次是"},{"start":8153.12,"end":8155.12,"text":"無預警的關閉"},{"start":8155.12,"end":8157.12,"text":"那我想請問一下我們外交部在什麼"},{"start":8157.12,"end":8159.12,"text":"時候掌握到這個訊息的"},{"start":8160.31,"end":8162.31,"text":"我們就是他外交部長貼臉書"},{"start":8162.31,"end":8164.31,"text":"事實上我們這個事情"},{"start":8164.31,"end":8166.31,"text":"交涉很久"},{"start":8166.31,"end":8168.31,"text":"也知道他們有一個兩年的檢討期"},{"start":8168.31,"end":8170.31,"text":"對"},{"start":8170.31,"end":8172.31,"text":"但是這個部長利用他的"},{"start":8172.31,"end":8174.31,"text":"次長跟他們的"},{"start":8174.31,"end":8176.31,"text":"亞太市長不在的時候"},{"start":8176.31,"end":8178.31,"text":"自己去貼了臉書"},{"start":8181.27,"end":8183.27,"text":"他們的這個政府體系"},{"start":8183.27,"end":8185.27,"text":"那這個外交部長"},{"start":8185.27,"end":8187.27,"text":"因為他們內部有不一樣的意見"},{"start":8187.27,"end":8189.27,"text":"因為既然有兩年的檢討是內閣會議通過了"},{"start":8189.27,"end":8191.27,"text":"這樣的突擊"},{"start":8191.27,"end":8193.27,"text":"其實他們內部有一些人驚訝"},{"start":8193.27,"end":8195.27,"text":"很多友盟"},{"start":8195.27,"end":8197.27,"text":"大家覺得怎麼又來了"},{"start":8197.27,"end":8199.27,"text":"那你剛剛講到的是說這次是因為"},{"start":8199.27,"end":8201.27,"text":"他們的外交部長卡琴科主導"},{"start":8201.27,"end":8203.27,"text":"那"},{"start":8203.27,"end":8205.27,"text":"八紐裡面有不同的聲音跟意見"},{"start":8205.27,"end":8207.27,"text":"可不可以具體說明一下"},{"start":8207.27,"end":8209.27,"text":"八紐政府裡面有哪一些"},{"start":82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我想他用了一些手段"},{"start":8221.2,"end":8223.2,"text":"也因為這個樣子我們需要"},{"start":8223.2,"end":8225.2,"text":"去交涉"},{"start":8225.2,"end":8227.2,"text":"也需要一點時間"},{"start":8227.2,"end":8229.2,"text":"然後你的意思是說整個八紐裡面"},{"start":8229.2,"end":8231.2,"text":"就只有外交部長"},{"start":8231.2,"end":8233.2,"text":"一個人贊成說"},{"start":8233.2,"end":8235.2,"text":"他當然有經過所謂的"},{"start":8235.2,"end":8237.2,"text":"國會農曆等等的都不知道"},{"start":8237.2,"end":8239.2,"text":"然後約團隊"},{"start":8239.2,"end":8241.2,"text":"一個"},{"start":8241.2,"end":8243.2,"text":"一個"},{"start":8243.89,"end":8245.89,"text":"內閣的一個行政的一個"},{"start":8245.89,"end":8247.89,"text":"決定"},{"start":8247.89,"end":8249.89,"text":"但是事實上他們內閣"},{"start":8249.89,"end":8251.89,"text":"是有經過先前討論"},{"start":8251.89,"end":8253.89,"text":"是兩年的檢討期"},{"start":8253.89,"end":8255.89,"text":"所以我們為什麼說"},{"start":8255.89,"end":8257.89,"text":"他這個行動"},{"start":8257.89,"end":8259.89,"text":"以他背後代表"},{"start":8259.89,"end":8261.89,"text":"其實因為他的"},{"start":8261.14,"end":8263.14,"text":"這個其實媒體"},{"start":8263.14,"end":8265.14,"text":"在外國的媒體也都有報導"},{"start":8265.14,"end":8267.14,"text":"所以這個我們認為"},{"start":8267.14,"end":8269.14,"text":"其實台八關係不能夠"},{"start":8269.14,"end":8271.14,"text":"因為這樣的一個貼文"},{"start":8271.14,"end":8273.14,"text":"就決定了 所以我們當然會"},{"start":8273.14,"end":8275.14,"text":"繼續交涉"},{"start":8275.14,"end":8277.14,"text":"所以下一步我要詢問的就是有關於"},{"start":8277.14,"end":8279.14,"text":"部長有談到"},{"start":8279.14,"end":8281.14,"text":"要18號的時候說要檢討我們跟"},{"start":8281.14,"end":8283.14,"text":"八紐的天然氣合約"},{"start":8283.14,"end":8285.14,"text":"經濟部昨天也說在審視"},{"start":8285.14,"end":8287.14,"text":"那這幾天下來"},{"start":8287.14,"end":8289.14,"text":"那我們最新的進度是什麼"},{"start":8289.14,"end":8291.14,"text":"我們對於八紐的天然氣"},{"start":8291.14,"end":8293.14,"text":"我們接下來要採取什麼樣的一個"},{"start":8293.14,"end":8295.14,"text":"作為"},{"start":8294.43,"end":8296.43,"text":"因為我們"},{"start":8296.43,"end":8298.43,"text":"對八紐的天然氣採購"},{"start":8298.43,"end":8300.43,"text":"在台灣可能就是比例雖然"},{"start":8300.43,"end":8302.43,"text":"不是很高 但在八紐輸出"},{"start":8302.43,"end":8304.43,"text":"是相當高 將近"},{"start":8304.43,"end":8306.43,"text":"三分之一"},{"start":8306.43,"end":8308.43,"text":"他們國家也都了解"},{"start":8308.43,"end":8310.43,"text":"所以就覺得這個所謂的"},{"start":8310.43,"end":8312.43,"text":"要關閉台灣的代表處"},{"start":8312.43,"end":8314.43,"text":"其實是會傷害"},{"start":8314.43,"end":8316.43,"text":"八紐的利益"},{"start":8316.43,"end":8318.43,"text":"所以我們接下來就是說經過這幾天的評估"},{"start":8318.43,"end":8320.43,"text":"因為你從18號就有談到"},{"start":8320.43,"end":8322.43,"text":"這個天然氣合約要重新檢討"},{"start":8322.43,"end":8324.43,"text":"那目前來說我們"},{"start":8324.43,"end":8326.43,"text":"佔定的這個腳步跟策略方向"},{"start":8326.43,"end":8328.43,"text":"因為有些題材我不方便在這裡講"},{"start":8328.43,"end":8330.43,"text":"但基本上有長約跟短約"},{"start":8330.43,"end":8332.43,"text":"還有現貨市場"},{"start":8332.43,"end":8334.43,"text":"上到採購"},{"start":8334.43,"end":8336.43,"text":"我們是有工具可以運用"},{"start":8336.43,"end":8338.43,"text":"但怎麼用會有效"},{"start":8338.43,"end":8340.43,"text":"不能說的部分我們都尊重"},{"start":8340.43,"end":8342.43,"text":"那就是想要了解一下"},{"start":8342.43,"end":8344.43,"text":"那但是呢"},{"start":8344.43,"end":8346.43,"text":"自由時報在17號的時候"},{"start":8346.43,"end":8348.43,"text":"澳洲媒體有"},{"start":8348.43,"end":8350.43,"text":"就引述了一個澳洲媒體"},{"start":8350.43,"end":8352.43,"text":"的內容講到說"},{"start":8352.43,"end":8354.43,"text":"這個八紐他們"},{"start":8354.43,"end":8356.43,"text":"的外交部長透露在"},{"start":8356.43,"end":8358.43,"text":"關閉八紐代表處的"},{"start":8358.43,"end":8360.43,"text":"數週前已經告知了外交"},{"start":8360.43,"end":8362.43,"text":"澳洲的外交部長"},{"start":8362.43,"end":8364.43,"text":"那這個是要讓中國大陸"},{"start":8364.43,"end":8366.43,"text":"去了解說北京對"},{"start":8366.43,"end":8368.43,"text":"八紐來說是重要的夥伴"},{"start":8368.43,"end":8370.43,"text":"然後他還講說這個"},{"start":8370.43,"end":8372.43,"text":"決定並不會影響台灣"},{"start":8372.43,"end":8374.43,"text":"跟八紐的天然氣"},{"start":8374.43,"end":8376.43,"text":"出口上的合約"},{"start":8376.43,"end":8378.43,"text":"兩邊的這個貿易將會"},{"start":8378.43,"end":8380.43,"text":"繼續進行然後談"},{"start":8380.43,"end":8382.43,"text":"他提到說呢這個辦事處"},{"start":8382.43,"end":8384.43,"text":"並不會影響業務跟合約"},{"start":8384.43,"end":8386.43,"text":"這個辦事處什麼都沒有做"},{"start":8386.43,"end":8388.43,"text":"這個是自由時報的"},{"start":8388.43,"end":8390.43,"text":"報導去引述的那我想在"},{"start":8390.43,"end":8392.43,"text":"這個時間部長可能有一些"},{"start":8392.43,"end":8394.43,"text":"要跟我們國人澄清說明的"},{"start":8394.43,"end":8396.43,"text":"我覺得可以趁這個機會"},{"start":8396.43,"end":8398.43,"text":"把整個事情就是說對方"},{"start":8398.43,"end":8400.43,"text":"做了這樣的一個說法"},{"start":8400.43,"end":8402.43,"text":"然後經過澳洲媒體的"},{"start":8402.43,"end":8404.43,"text":"報導再由自由時報"},{"start":8404.43,"end":8406.43,"text":"報導出來好那我想"},{"start":8406.43,"end":8408.43,"text":"民眾會有些疑慮"},{"start":8408.96,"end":8410.96,"text":"無法確定他是真的"},{"start":8410.96,"end":8412.96,"text":"所以今天算是部長這邊"},{"start":8412.96,"end":8414.96,"text":"有一些什麼樣的想法"},{"start":8414.96,"end":8416.96,"text":"那你所掌握到的情況"},{"start":8416.96,"end":8418.96,"text":"能夠跟國人說的部分"},{"start":8418.96,"end":8420.96,"text":"那請簡總說一下"},{"start":8420.96,"end":8422.96,"text":"這不是就呈現他理不直氣不壯"},{"start":8422.96,"end":8424.96,"text":"怎麼會沒有經貿的關係"},{"start":8424.96,"end":8426.96,"text":"那採購不是經貿的關係嗎"},{"start":8426.96,"end":8428.96,"text":"那我們就因此我們回應"},{"start":8428.96,"end":8430.96,"text":"所以說是有我們確實有經貿往來"},{"start":8430.96,"end":8432.96,"text":"至於他去講人家"},{"start":8432.96,"end":8434.96,"text":"澳洲怎麼樣這個是"},{"start":8434.96,"end":8436.96,"text":"有一點月除太保"},{"start":8436.96,"end":8438.96,"text":"我們自己理虧"},{"start":8438.96,"end":8440.96,"text":"那我們不要預期為其他國家代言"},{"start":8440.96,"end":8442.96,"text":"那意思是說所有的友盟"},{"start":8442.96,"end":8444.96,"text":"都知道台灣在那邊是有利無害的"},{"start":8444.96,"end":8446.96,"text":"是中共在那邊"},{"start":8446.96,"end":8448.96,"text":"想要去透過"},{"start":8448.96,"end":8450.96,"text":"這個八牛"},{"start":8450.96,"end":8452.96,"text":"去搞這些太平洋國家"},{"start":8452.96,"end":8454.96,"text":"的這些地區"},{"start":8454.96,"end":8456.96,"text":"照著大家機權不寧"},{"start":8456.96,"end":8458.96,"text":"所以這個外交部長本身"},{"start":8458.96,"end":8460.96,"text":"你看他越講越滷氣"},{"start":8460.96,"end":8462.96,"text":"對啊他為什麼會提到就是說"},{"start":8462.96,"end":8464.96,"text":"這個決定不會影響"},{"start":8464.96,"end":8466.96,"text":"台灣跟八牛的"},{"start":8466.96,"end":8468.96,"text":"天然氣合約"},{"start":8468.96,"end":8470.96,"text":"他有這樣的一個自信心是"},{"start":8470.96,"end":8472.96,"text":"其來何至啊"},{"start":8472.96,"end":8474.96,"text":"我也不知道吃了什麼熊心豹子膽"},{"start":8474.96,"end":8476.96,"text":"OK 好了解"},{"start":8476.96,"end":8478.96,"text":"那所以說其實他講的這個是不正"},{"start":8478.96,"end":8480.96,"text":"如果這是他所說的話"},{"start":8480.96,"end":8482.96,"text":"其實我們認為是不正確的一個說法"},{"start":8482.96,"end":8484.96,"text":"可以怎麼講"},{"start":8484.48,"end":8486.48,"text":"對啊不正確所以我就反駁他啦"},{"start":8486.89,"end":8488.89,"text":"那除了這個八牛之外"},{"start":8488.89,"end":8490.89,"text":"也要問一下就是呢"},{"start":8490.89,"end":8492.89,"text":"關注到過去"},{"start":8492.89,"end":8494.89,"text":"像是先前南非政府"},{"start":8494.89,"end":8496.89,"text":"這個迫遷台灣代表處"},{"start":8496.89,"end":8498.89,"text":"那他們這個我們要"},{"start":8498.89,"end":8500.89,"text":"捍衛權力像這樣的一個"},{"start":8500.89,"end":8502.89,"text":"訊息那當時也有一些談判"},{"start":8502.89,"end":8504.89,"text":"那我想要問一下我們的"},{"start":8504.89,"end":8506.89,"text":"這個談判進展如何"},{"start":8506.89,"end":8508.89,"text":"過了八個多月我們協商到哪裡了"},{"start":8508.89,"end":8510.89,"text":"在南非的駐外機構的權益"},{"start":8510.89,"end":8512.89,"text":"提出了什麼樣的"},{"start":8512.89,"end":8514.89,"text":"保障有落實下來的"},{"start":8515.65,"end":8517.65,"text":"我們跟南非的關係"},{"start":8517.65,"end":8519.65,"text":"也已經快兩年多"},{"start":8519.65,"end":8521.65,"text":"他就是要我們"},{"start":8521.65,"end":8523.65,"text":"簽館改名降級"},{"start":8523.65,"end":8525.65,"text":"我們其實因為跟他"},{"start":8525.65,"end":8527.65,"text":"有簽過啊這個"},{"start":8527.65,"end":8529.65,"text":"雙邊關係的協議"},{"start":8529.65,"end":8531.65,"text":"所以大家要照法律來"},{"start":8531.65,"end":8533.65,"text":"他現在國會議員去"},{"start":8533.65,"end":8535.65,"text":"跟他外交部要他也"},{"start":8535.65,"end":8537.65,"text":"拿不出來啦是要拿出來"},{"start":8537.65,"end":8539.65,"text":"大家都知道那關係是什麼"},{"start":8539.65,"end":8541.65,"text":"所以我們當然處境"},{"start":8541.65,"end":8543.65,"text":"很艱辛啦我們的外管"},{"start":8543.65,"end":8545.65,"text":"人員但是我們就堅守"},{"start":8545.65,"end":8547.65,"text":"崗位所以這個事情啊"},{"start":8547.65,"end":8549.65,"text":"目前的進度就各界都"},{"start":8549.65,"end":8551.65,"text":"很關切啊"},{"start":8551.65,"end":8553.65,"text":"那我們也還就在啊"},{"start":8553.65,"end":8555.65,"text":"那個財產是我們的啊"},{"start":8555.65,"end":8557.65,"text":"我們的外管嘛"},{"start":8557.65,"end":8559.65,"text":"我們也繼續在運作啊"},{"start":8559.65,"end":8561.65,"text":"如果說是中國啊在那邊嘛"},{"start":8561.65,"end":8563.65,"text":"每次跟南非有什麼"},{"start":8563.65,"end":8565.65,"text":"往來就要求要"},{"start":8565.65,"end":8567.65,"text":"他要表達什麼或要做一些什麼事情"},{"start":8567.65,"end":8569.65,"text":"真的搞得全世界天下"},{"start":8569.65,"end":8571.65,"text":"大亂啦"},{"start":8571.65,"end":8573.65,"text":"然後還有這個南非"},{"start":8573.65,"end":8575.65,"text":"其實包含是立陶宛"},{"start":8575.65,"end":8577.65,"text":"那這邊我也要問一下就是先前"},{"start":8577.65,"end":8579.65,"text":"立陶宛政府也說"},{"start":8579.65,"end":8581.65,"text":"要檢討我們立陶宛辦事處的"},{"start":8581.65,"end":8583.65,"text":"名稱問題然後呢"},{"start":8583.65,"end":8585.65,"text":"他上個禮拜有講到說"},{"start":8585.65,"end":8587.65,"text":"以台灣的名字設太表處的決定"},{"start":8587.65,"end":8589.65,"text":"或許過於大膽等等的"},{"start":8589.65,"end":8591.65,"text":"然後呢他們的國會議員也質疑我們"},{"start":8591.65,"end":8593.65,"text":"對立陶宛的投資承諾他們的"},{"start":8593.65,"end":8595.65,"text":"外交部呢今年六月的時候也談到"},{"start":8595.65,"end":8597.65,"text":"說經過我國跟立陶宛雙方同意"},{"start":8597.65,"end":8599.65,"text":"暫緩立陶宛的對台"},{"start":8599.65,"end":8601.65,"text":"經濟合作計畫"},{"start":8601.65,"end":8603.65,"text":"那這個六月被針對的時候呢"},{"start":8603.65,"end":8605.65,"text":"那我們就講到說因為立陶宛政府在改組"},{"start":8605.65,"end":8607.65,"text":"而七月十四號也已經成立了"},{"start":8607.65,"end":8609.65,"text":"新政府改組完畢了"},{"start":8609.65,"end":8611.65,"text":"請問在這個經濟合作計畫上面"},{"start":8611.65,"end":8613.65,"text":"我們有沒有新的消息跟進展"},{"start":8613.65,"end":8615.65,"text":"可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":8615.65,"end":8617.65,"text":"有那我們因為台立之間"},{"start":8617.65,"end":8619.65,"text":"有經濟合作"},{"start":8619.65,"end":8621.65,"text":"這個項目的這個"},{"start":8623.93,"end":8625.93,"text":"資商"},{"start":8625.93,"end":8627.93,"text":"那也在進行中"},{"start":8627.93,"end":8629.93,"text":"那至於說"},{"start":8628.52,"end":8630.52,"text":"您剛提到新的總理也有對外講"},{"start":8630.52,"end":8632.52,"text":"因為這也不會有什麼改名的問題"},{"start":8632.52,"end":8634.52,"text":"那他跟中國的往來"},{"start":8634.52,"end":8636.52,"text":"他希望尋求歐盟的"},{"start":8636.52,"end":8638.52,"text":"的這個"},{"start":8638.52,"end":8640.52,"text":"標準"},{"start":8640.52,"end":8642.52,"text":"我們也予以尊重"},{"start":8642.52,"end":8644.52,"text":"可是台立之間的關係"},{"start":8644.52,"end":8646.52,"text":"跟中國不一定要有關係"},{"start":8646.52,"end":8648.52,"text":"所以我們雙邊怎麼樣加強關係"},{"start":8648.52,"end":8650.52,"text":"是他們最重視的"},{"start":8650.52,"end":8652.52,"text":"至於說他們跟中國之間"},{"start":8652.52,"end":8654.52,"text":"的關係說實在"},{"start":8654.52,"end":8656.52,"text":"中國到底會怎麼樣"},{"start":8656.52,"end":8658.52,"text":"我們也沒辦法替他決定"},{"start":8658.52,"end":8660.52,"text":"那因為時間有限"},{"start":8660.52,"end":8662.52,"text":"最後就是表達一下就是說"},{"start":8662.52,"end":8664.52,"text":"過去中國大陸對"},{"start":8664.52,"end":8666.52,"text":"我們中華民國的外交"},{"start":8666.52,"end":8668.52,"text":"他可能用比如說"},{"start":8668.52,"end":8670.52,"text":"一些邦交國的斷交"},{"start":8670.52,"end":8672.52,"text":"這樣的方式來處理"},{"start":8672.52,"end":8674.52,"text":"那當然因為我們現在的邦交國數量也不多"},{"start":8674.52,"end":8676.52,"text":"那我們就是堅守自己的邦交國"},{"start":8676.52,"end":8678.52,"text":"這部分外交部也很辛苦"},{"start":8678.52,"end":8680.52,"text":"那我們也予以鼓勵"},{"start":8680.52,"end":8682.52,"text":"那加油"},{"start":8682.52,"end":8684.52,"text":"但是現在看起來"},{"start":8684.52,"end":8686.52,"text":"很多的代表處"},{"start":8686.52,"end":8688.52,"text":"的一些刁難"},{"start":8688.52,"end":8690.52,"text":"或者是說一些阻礙"},{"start":8690.52,"end":8692.52,"text":"好像變成是一個"},{"start":8692.52,"end":8694.52,"text":"新的一個方向"},{"start":8694.52,"end":8696.52,"text":"那這一點我相信外交部也非常清楚"},{"start":8696.52,"end":8698.52,"text":"那也希望能夠繼續"},{"start":8698.52,"end":8700.52,"text":"為中華民國的外交努力"},{"start":8700.52,"end":8702.52,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8704.32,"end":8706.32,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9071.98,"end":9073.98,"text":"好"},{"start":9073.14,"end":9075.14,"text":"各位請回座我們繼續開會"},{"start":9076.25,"end":9078.25,"text":"接下來請"},{"start":9078.25,"end":9080.25,"text":"牛許廷委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9086.97,"end":9088.97,"text":"謝謝主席 林教授部長有請"},{"start":9088.97,"end":9090.97,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":9100.06,"end":9102.06,"text":"部長午安"},{"start":9102.06,"end":9104.06,"text":"最近中國大陸在"},{"start":9104.06,"end":9106.06,"text":"南海可以說是動作頻頻"},{"start":9106.06,"end":9108.06,"text":"這個方法"},{"start":9108.06,"end":9110.06,"text":"不管怎麼樣來使用"},{"start":9110.06,"end":9112.06,"text":"動作越來越大是一個事實"},{"start":9112.06,"end":9114.06,"text":"那比如說最近"},{"start":9114.06,"end":9115.06,"text":"不管是人愛交"},{"start":9115.06,"end":9117.06,"text":"中間的一些衝突或者是"},{"start":9117.06,"end":9119.06,"text":"開始談到所謂的八單群島"},{"start":9119.06,"end":9121.06,"text":"自古屬於中國這樣一個新的"},{"start":9121.06,"end":9123.06,"text":"敘事跑出來等等"},{"start":9123.06,"end":9125.06,"text":"那其實都彰顯著他們的"},{"start":9125.06,"end":9127.06,"text":"野心勃勃嘛"},{"start":9127.06,"end":9129.06,"text":"那關鍵的問題是這樣嘛就是說我們在因應"},{"start":9129.06,"end":9131.06,"text":"這樣的狀況的時候大家都關心著中華民國"},{"start":9131.06,"end":9133.06,"text":"政府的態度是什麼做了哪些事情"},{"start":9133.06,"end":9135.06,"text":"所以今天找了幾個問題就叫"},{"start":9135.06,"end":9137.06,"text":"部長 這部長在報告第四"},{"start":9137.06,"end":9139.06,"text":"也有寫到說我們駐非的代表"},{"start":9139.06,"end":9141.06,"text":"出了人員非常積極出席非常多場"},{"start":9141.06,"end":9143.06,"text":"的南海的論壇"},{"start":9143.06,"end":9145.06,"text":"那麼因應這些局勢的"},{"start":9145.06,"end":9147.06,"text":"姑且講升溫吧或者說對手的動作"},{"start":9147.06,"end":9149.06,"text":"增加我們在論壇"},{"start":9149.06,"end":9151.06,"text":"裡面都談了一些什麼樣的"},{"start":9151.06,"end":9153.06,"text":"重點 他談話的內容是什麼"},{"start":9153.06,"end":9155.06,"text":"你參與是一定參與的嘛"},{"start":9155.06,"end":9157.06,"text":"但問題是你在參與的時候你做了哪一些的主張"},{"start":9157.06,"end":9159.06,"text":"是不是請部長說明一下"},{"start":9158.92,"end":9160.92,"text":"來我請亞太師來說明一下"},{"start":9160.92,"end":9162.92,"text":"我們平凡的"},{"start":9162.92,"end":9164.92,"text":"跟台飛有一些交流合作"},{"start":9164.92,"end":9166.92,"text":"包括辦論壇"},{"start":9166.92,"end":9168.92,"text":"所以這個方式其實也可以"},{"start":9168.92,"end":9170.92,"text":"邀請更多的國家來參加"},{"start":9170.92,"end":9172.92,"text":"透過菲律賓做一個平台"},{"start":9173.45,"end":9175.45,"text":"來 市長補充沒關係"},{"start":9175.45,"end":9177.45,"text":"報告委員 我們這個住宿的同仁"},{"start":9177.45,"end":9179.45,"text":"在參加很多場南海相關"},{"start":9179.45,"end":9181.45,"text":"相關議題的論壇的時候"},{"start":9181.45,"end":9183.45,"text":"其實主要都是在去重申"},{"start":9183.45,"end":9185.45,"text":"我們政府的既定的立場"},{"start":9185.45,"end":9187.45,"text":"就是我們跟南海其他身所固"},{"start":9187.45,"end":9189.45,"text":"多半都遵守國際法"},{"start":9189.45,"end":9191.45,"text":"還有聯合國海航公約以及秉持"},{"start":9191.45,"end":9193.45,"text":"互相尊重的立場透過對話跟"},{"start":9193.45,"end":9195.45,"text":"國際會議等機制透過和平的"},{"start":9195.45,"end":9197.45,"text":"法律處理問題"},{"start":9197.45,"end":9199.45,"text":"四點原則嘛 是不是"},{"start":9199.45,"end":9201.45,"text":"所以你參加了很多的論壇數量非常多"},{"start":9201.45,"end":9203.45,"text":"而且是以前到現在都一樣 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":9204.01,"end":9206.01,"text":"應該是說只要參加這樣的議題"},{"start":9206.01,"end":9208.01,"text":"我們的助管人員都會重申政府的立場"},{"start":9208.01,"end":9210.01,"text":"OK 重申政府的立場 所以"},{"start":9210.01,"end":9212.01,"text":"我部長 我之所以問這個問題就是這樣"},{"start":9212.01,"end":9214.01,"text":"就是說 這本來就是"},{"start":9214.01,"end":9216.01,"text":"博弈 外交 對不對"},{"start":9216.01,"end":9218.01,"text":"我往前進一步"},{"start":9218.01,"end":9220.01,"text":"然後測試大家的一個反應"},{"start":9220.01,"end":9222.01,"text":"那現在看起來我們的反應好像是我們停在原地不動"},{"start":9222.01,"end":9224.01,"text":"是這個方針嗎"},{"start":9224.01,"end":9226.01,"text":"因為中共它現在把台海 東海 南海"},{"start":9226.01,"end":9228.01,"text":"其實都在全面發動"},{"start":9228.01,"end":9230.01,"text":"就是擴張"},{"start":9230.01,"end":9232.01,"text":"我們大家去找朋友"},{"start":9232.01,"end":9234.01,"text":"因為不然的話我們老是"},{"start":9234.01,"end":9236.01,"text":"變成台海兩岸的問題"},{"start":9236.01,"end":9238.01,"text":"所以區域啊 這些有關於"},{"start":9238.01,"end":9240.01,"text":"共同關切的這一些"},{"start":9240.01,"end":9242.01,"text":"島礁 領海"},{"start":9242.01,"end":9244.01,"text":"這些相關的議題"},{"start":9244.01,"end":9246.01,"text":"其實台灣就是利害關係了"},{"start":9246.01,"end":9248.01,"text":"我們希望積極的參與"},{"start":9248.01,"end":9250.01,"text":"不要被排除在外"},{"start":9250.01,"end":9252.01,"text":"你今天講積極的參與這些東西大家都同意的"},{"start":9252.01,"end":9254.01,"text":"但我的意思是說在局勢改變的時候"},{"start":9254.01,"end":9256.01,"text":"你的立場如果都沒有變"},{"start":9256.01,"end":9258.01,"text":"那可能大家就不當一回事嘛"},{"start":9258.01,"end":9260.01,"text":"反正習慣成自然"},{"start":9260.01,"end":9262.01,"text":"我們去找出交集"},{"start":9262.01,"end":9264.01,"text":"來促進共同的利益"},{"start":9264.01,"end":9266.01,"text":"有一些爭議我們可以擱置一下"},{"start":9266.01,"end":9268.01,"text":"當然 但我的意思是說當你長期的"},{"start":9268.01,"end":9270.01,"text":"一個主張的時候"},{"start":9270.01,"end":9272.01,"text":"大家都這樣說 但好像說一說好像也沒有什麼實際的作為"},{"start":9272.01,"end":9274.01,"text":"請問這樣子長期的倡議"},{"start":9274.01,"end":9276.01,"text":"即便我們的立場是非常保守而且不變"},{"start":9276.01,"end":9278.01,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下"},{"start":9278.01,"end":9280.01,"text":"哪一些現實改變"},{"start":9280.05,"end":9282.05,"text":"有啊 比如說我們共同有一些"},{"start":9282.05,"end":9284.05,"text":"可以維持區域和平穩定"},{"start":9284.05,"end":9286.05,"text":"大家都要資訊分享"},{"start":9286.05,"end":9288.05,"text":"包括像"},{"start":9288.05,"end":9290.05,"text":"比如說這種涉及到"},{"start":9290.05,"end":9292.05,"text":"跟可能海巡的交流"},{"start":9292.05,"end":9294.05,"text":"所有這些其實"},{"start":9294.05,"end":9296.05,"text":"都是在找出"},{"start":9296.05,"end":9298.05,"text":"跟我們的理念相近國家的交集"},{"start":9298.05,"end":9300.05,"text":"從國際觀際的視角"},{"start":9300.05,"end":9302.05,"text":"有些東西也只能做不能夠說"},{"start":9302.05,"end":9304.05,"text":"視角來看 那個結論就是"},{"start":9304.05,"end":9306.05,"text":"中國大陸步步進逼"},{"start":9306.05,"end":9308.05,"text":"這些東西要維持同樣的聲明"},{"start":9308.05,"end":9310.05,"text":"那當然我們是類似的立場"},{"start":9310.05,"end":9312.05,"text":"但顯然好像沒有辦法改變什麼事實"},{"start":9312.05,"end":9314.05,"text":"有這樣的可能性 當然我們不是沒有扭轉的機會"},{"start":9314.05,"end":9316.05,"text":"因為菲律賓的小馬可士"},{"start":9316.05,"end":9318.05,"text":"他們今年要擔任東協的"},{"start":9318.05,"end":9320.05,"text":"峰會的主席國"},{"start":9320.05,"end":9322.05,"text":"然後他們也明確的做了一個宣示"},{"start":9322.05,"end":9324.05,"text":"你看人家的宣示就是有不一樣"},{"start":9324.05,"end":9326.05,"text":"我不一樣的身分的時候我可能有不一樣的角色"},{"start":9326.05,"end":9328.05,"text":"比如說他要輪值東協峰會的主席國"},{"start":9328.05,"end":9330.05,"text":"他就會講說我要在COC的談判"},{"start":9330.05,"end":9332.05,"text":"拿來行為準則上面"},{"start":9332.05,"end":9334.05,"text":"我必須要推進他往前"},{"start":9334.05,"end":9336.05,"text":"那當然我們現在"},{"start":9336.05,"end":9338.05,"text":"每次也都講說我們希望不要被排除在外"},{"start":9338.05,"end":9340.05,"text":"希望可以真的落實"},{"start":9340.05,"end":9342.05,"text":"一些什麼樣的事情"},{"start":9342.05,"end":9344.05,"text":"那請問你剛講我們維持四點原則"},{"start":9344.05,"end":9346.05,"text":"立場是不變的"},{"start":9346.05,"end":9348.05,"text":"對外態度看起來是比較保守"},{"start":9348.05,"end":9350.05,"text":"那請問你能不能把握菲律賓"},{"start":9350.05,"end":9352.05,"text":"輪值主席國這一次在COC的談判上取得"},{"start":9352.05,"end":9354.05,"text":"具體的進展"},{"start":9354.05,"end":9356.05,"text":"我指的具體進展比如說你真實的參與了一個談判"},{"start":9356.05,"end":9358.05,"text":"或者是有中華民國的一些共同"},{"start":9358.05,"end":9360.05,"text":"的付出或努力你聯合了所謂的"},{"start":9360.05,"end":9362.05,"text":"民主大聯盟的盟邦等等"},{"start":9362.05,"end":9364.05,"text":"然後去具體推動拿來行為準則的"},{"start":9364.05,"end":9366.05,"text":"具體的進展外交部有沒有設立相關的一些KPI"},{"start":9366.05,"end":9368.05,"text":"我們可以期待這樣"},{"start":9368.85,"end":9370.85,"text":"因為我們並不是所謂東協"},{"start":9370.85,"end":9372.85,"text":"在跟中國"},{"start":9372.85,"end":9374.85,"text":"包括在處理南海"},{"start":9374.85,"end":9376.85,"text":"行為準則被邀請"},{"start":9376.85,"end":9378.85,"text":"或者是成員"},{"start":9378.85,"end":9380.85,"text":"但是我們也透過學者專家"},{"start":9380.85,"end":9382.85,"text":"各種方式去參與這個"},{"start":9382.85,"end":9384.85,"text":"包括一些論壇等等"},{"start":9384.85,"end":9386.85,"text":"那我們是有一些"},{"start":9386.85,"end":9388.85,"text":"是雙邊關係我們也可以去鏈結"},{"start":9388.85,"end":9390.85,"text":"因為事實上我剛剛講的COC"},{"start":9390.85,"end":9392.85,"text":"你可以第二軌你可以雙邊各別"},{"start":9392.85,"end":9394.85,"text":"都可以的方法你可以多元"},{"start":9394.85,"end":9396.85,"text":"但具體來講你有沒有什麼具體目標"},{"start":9396.96,"end":9398.96,"text":"具體目標就是我們的視點原則"},{"start":9398.96,"end":9400.96,"text":"我們的立場能夠"},{"start":9400.96,"end":9402.96,"text":"宣示以外"},{"start":9402.96,"end":9404.96,"text":"我們希望各自爭議共同開發"},{"start":9404.96,"end":9406.96,"text":"我們從自己做起"},{"start":9406.96,"end":9408.96,"text":"當然我們跟各方"},{"start":9408.96,"end":9410.96,"text":"都有一些可能的"},{"start":9410.96,"end":9412.96,"text":"就是說也可能有"},{"start":9412.96,"end":9414.96,"text":"共同利益也可能有衝突"},{"start":9414.96,"end":9416.96,"text":"那怎麼樣去處理這就是當然"},{"start":9416.96,"end":9418.96,"text":"除了外交之外也涉及到各個單位"},{"start":9418.96,"end":9420.96,"text":"也都有在進行"},{"start":9420.96,"end":9422.96,"text":"所以你的關鍵是你怎麼樣說服其他的國家"},{"start":9422.96,"end":9424.96,"text":"有我國家"},{"start":9424.96,"end":9426.96,"text":"然後共同透過什麼樣的行動"},{"start":9426.96,"end":9428.96,"text":"不過要簽訂這個來海行為準則"},{"start":9428.96,"end":9430.96,"text":"因為它意識性還有衝突很複雜"},{"start":9430.96,"end":9432.96,"text":"這個是目標"},{"start":9432.96,"end":9434.96,"text":"但是尤其現在"},{"start":9434.96,"end":9436.96,"text":"跟非中的關係"},{"start":9436.96,"end":9438.96,"text":"這麼緊張"},{"start":9438.96,"end":9440.96,"text":"真的是不容樂觀"},{"start":9440.96,"end":9442.96,"text":"但是我們也是一些關心"},{"start":9442.96,"end":9444.96,"text":"跟做一些我們希望能夠"},{"start":9444.96,"end":9446.96,"text":"積極來去參與"},{"start":9446.96,"end":9448.96,"text":"部長你講了很多"},{"start":9448.96,"end":9450.96,"text":"但大底上你還是講說我希望可以維持"},{"start":9450.96,"end":9452.96,"text":"這視點原則的立場但對於這件事情"},{"start":9452.96,"end":9454.96,"text":"我是否推薦你是悲觀的態度是這個意思嗎"},{"start":9455.18,"end":9457.18,"text":"不是啦菲律賓今天是東協的主席國"},{"start":9457.18,"end":9459.18,"text":"還有主席國的機緣"},{"start":9459.18,"end":9461.18,"text":"當然他會努力想要去推"},{"start":9461.18,"end":9463.18,"text":"中菲的摩擦在背後"},{"start":9463.18,"end":9465.18,"text":"當然你某一些層面中菲"},{"start":9465.18,"end":9467.18,"text":"因為你其他國家的聲明啊"},{"start":9467.18,"end":9469.18,"text":"其實大底上都跟我們視點原則很像啊"},{"start":9469.18,"end":9471.18,"text":"但他能不能具體的改變現實現狀"},{"start":9471.18,"end":9473.18,"text":"推進這COC的推動呢"},{"start":9472.54,"end":9474.54,"text":"你是悲觀的嗎"},{"start":9474.54,"end":9476.54,"text":"不容樂觀"},{"start":9476.54,"end":9478.54,"text":"你講實話我說我心態都很開放"},{"start":9478.54,"end":9480.54,"text":"因為這本來就是大家就是論事"},{"start":9480.54,"end":9482.54,"text":"但是希望"},{"start":9482.54,"end":9484.54,"text":"我最後做一點提醒有關於這個題目"},{"start":9484.54,"end":9486.54,"text":"你的內容也講說"},{"start":9486.54,"end":9488.54,"text":"我們在這個宣傳"},{"start":9488.54,"end":9490.54,"text":"因為今天很多委員都講說什麼"},{"start":9490.54,"end":9492.54,"text":"這個媒宣費用很重要等等"},{"start":9492.54,"end":9494.54,"text":"你說我們曝光了113萬次安排"},{"start":9494.54,"end":9496.54,"text":"58場國際媒體專訪"},{"start":9496.54,"end":9498.54,"text":"那我就很好奇了"},{"start":9498.54,"end":9500.54,"text":"你說20篇的社群貼文"},{"start":9500.54,"end":9502.54,"text":"有關於3萬次的曝光"},{"start":9502.54,"end":9504.54,"text":"然後58次的專訪都是談南海的題目嗎"},{"start":9504.54,"end":9506.54,"text":"他們基本上只要來自於"},{"start":9506.54,"end":9508.54,"text":"跟東協"},{"start":9508.54,"end":9510.54,"text":"或是印太國家"},{"start":9510.54,"end":9512.54,"text":"都會關心南海問題"},{"start":9512.54,"end":9514.54,"text":"其實南海的不確定性"},{"start":9514.54,"end":9516.54,"text":"跟可能會擦槍走火的機會"},{"start":9516.54,"end":9518.54,"text":"要密切注意"},{"start":9518.54,"end":9520.54,"text":"因為大家談"},{"start":9520.54,"end":9522.54,"text":"譬如說談台海他也都可能會插邊"},{"start":9522.54,"end":9524.54,"text":"有可能是專門談南海"},{"start":9524.54,"end":9526.54,"text":"可能談東南亞可能談東協等等"},{"start":9526.54,"end":9528.54,"text":"有的談經濟有的談政治對不對"},{"start":9528.54,"end":9530.54,"text":"很空泛100多萬次的曝光好像非常有效果"},{"start":9530.54,"end":9532.54,"text":"但本席是很關注"},{"start":9532.54,"end":9534.54,"text":"到底花了多少的力道"},{"start":9534.54,"end":9536.54,"text":"跟集中度在討論南海相關的議題"},{"start":9536.54,"end":9538.54,"text":"所以這個還是要麻煩一下外交部的同仁"},{"start":9538.54,"end":9540.54,"text":"你稍微整理一下吧"},{"start":9540.54,"end":9542.54,"text":"你在媒體曝光的上系的這個"},{"start":9542.54,"end":9544.54,"text":"這個戲幕好不好你做一個簡單的報告"},{"start":9544.54,"end":9546.54,"text":"我跟委員報告包括G7"},{"start":9546.54,"end":9548.54,"text":"包括現在什麼IP4"},{"start":9548.54,"end":9550.54,"text":"他們都會去提到台海東海跟南海"},{"start":9550.54,"end":9552.54,"text":"甚至把它不語列"},{"start":9552.54,"end":9554.54,"text":"你就整理出來就好"},{"start":9554.54,"end":9556.54,"text":"我們在受訪的時候也是很強調"},{"start":9556.54,"end":9558.54,"text":"我們現在報告受訪的內容"},{"start":9558.54,"end":9560.54,"text":"好那屬不屬於這個範圍之內"},{"start":9560.54,"end":9562.54,"text":"要好好檢視一下"},{"start":9562.54,"end":9564.54,"text":"那所以我們也建議一下"},{"start":9564.54,"end":9566.54,"text":"因為馬總統的時代"},{"start":9566.54,"end":9568.54,"text":"還有陳水扁總統的時代"},{"start":9568.54,"end":9570.54,"text":"其實都有登島宣誓主權"},{"start":9570.54,"end":9572.54,"text":"等等相關的一些比較大的動作"},{"start":9572.54,"end":9574.54,"text":"在某一些層面我剛剛一開始問你"},{"start":9574.54,"end":9576.54,"text":"我說我們現在對這件事情總體態度來講"},{"start":9576.54,"end":9578.54,"text":"你還是這個視點原則都不變"},{"start":9578.54,"end":9580.54,"text":"你的說法都不變"},{"start":9580.54,"end":9582.54,"text":"然後具體來講說你能不能在峰會裡面"},{"start":9582.54,"end":9584.54,"text":"把握機會推動你也講你必須保守看待"},{"start":9584.54,"end":9586.54,"text":"這我都理解"},{"start":9586.54,"end":9588.54,"text":"但有些事情是我們可以做的"},{"start":9587.46,"end":9589.46,"text":"我們海委會"},{"start":9589.46,"end":9591.46,"text":"因為他是主管機關"},{"start":9591.46,"end":9593.46,"text":"也有我們管弊林主委"},{"start":9593.46,"end":9595.46,"text":"也到了太平島"},{"start":9595.46,"end":9597.46,"text":"這個都是行為的表示"},{"start":9597.46,"end":9599.46,"text":"這個我"},{"start":9599.46,"end":9601.46,"text":"思考一下這件事情"},{"start":9601.46,"end":9603.46,"text":"其實我是覺得完全可以做得到"},{"start":9603.46,"end":9605.46,"text":"操之在己"},{"start":9605.46,"end":9607.46,"text":"他有一定的政治宣誓的意味"},{"start":9607.46,"end":9609.46,"text":"你這樣才有角色"},{"start":9609.46,"end":9611.46,"text":"如果對方是步步進逼"},{"start":9611.46,"end":9613.46,"text":"然後我們是沉默以對或者是保守以對"},{"start":9613.46,"end":9615.46,"text":"難免被人家操作成"},{"start":9615.46,"end":9617.46,"text":"那就是危險"},{"start":9617.46,"end":9619.46,"text":"所以我講你如果說我走多邊的狀況"},{"start":9619.46,"end":9621.46,"text":"或是雙邊的時候我會遇到若干的一些障礙"},{"start":9621.46,"end":9623.46,"text":"以至於沒辦法推進的時候"},{"start":9623.46,"end":9625.46,"text":"我們可以操作一些操之在我的"},{"start":9625.46,"end":9627.46,"text":"這樣子才能安定"},{"start":9627.46,"end":9629.46,"text":"委員所言非常的對"},{"start":9629.46,"end":9631.46,"text":"我們就是希望操之在己"},{"start":9631.46,"end":9633.46,"text":"我們就自己不斷的去落實"},{"start":9633.46,"end":9635.46,"text":"所以你會建議一下我們賴總統"},{"start":9635.46,"end":9637.46,"text":"也登島宣誓一下主權嗎"},{"start":9637.46,"end":9639.46,"text":"有些東西我也沒辦法在這裡說"},{"start":9639.46,"end":9641.46,"text":"但是以前有這個例子"},{"start":9641.46,"end":9643.46,"text":"我們現在的海委會"},{"start":9643.46,"end":9645.46,"text":"主委也已經都有去"},{"start":9645.46,"end":9647.46,"text":"至於說其他"},{"start":9647.46,"end":9649.46,"text":"因為這涉及到很複雜的地緣政治上的連鎖反應"},{"start":9649.46,"end":9651.46,"text":"我們是說"},{"start":9651.46,"end":9653.46,"text":"這曾經有"},{"start":9653.46,"end":9655.46,"text":"就是代表我們可以"},{"start":9655.46,"end":9657.46,"text":"但是什麼樣的方式適合"},{"start":9657.46,"end":9659.46,"text":"這個都要玉橫大舉"},{"start":9659.46,"end":9661.46,"text":"整體來評估"},{"start":9661.46,"end":9663.46,"text":"外交部的處境一向都很艱難"},{"start":9663.46,"end":9665.46,"text":"這本來就完全都理解"},{"start":9665.46,"end":9667.46,"text":"但是處境艱難的時候你可以做一些什麼"},{"start":9667.46,"end":9669.46,"text":"可以安定國內我覺得這是很重要的"},{"start":9669.46,"end":9671.46,"text":"因為剛才我們講話的時候聲音不能少"},{"start":9671.46,"end":9673.46,"text":"那這段時間我要請教一下"},{"start":9673.46,"end":9675.46,"text":"馬文俊委員我們都很關心"},{"start":9675.46,"end":9677.46,"text":"八牛這件事情"},{"start":9677.46,"end":9679.46,"text":"因為部長難得強硬"},{"start":9679.46,"end":9681.46,"text":"我們天然氣"},{"start":9681.46,"end":9683.46,"text":"剛剛講我引用你答詢的內容"},{"start":9683.46,"end":9685.46,"text":"佔八牛輸出的三分之一"},{"start":9685.46,"end":9687.46,"text":"所以這其實是他非常非常關注的題目"},{"start":9687.46,"end":9689.46,"text":"但是好像"},{"start":9689.46,"end":9691.46,"text":"指紋樓梯講"},{"start":9691.46,"end":9693.46,"text":"你講說我們要不排除動用"},{"start":9693.46,"end":9695.46,"text":"這樣子的一個外交籌碼"},{"start":9695.46,"end":9697.46,"text":"那後續呢"},{"start":9697.46,"end":9699.46,"text":"我們到底決定要用鐵腕"},{"start":9699.46,"end":9701.46,"text":"完全教育一下這些動不動就關閉我們代表處的國家"},{"start":9703.48,"end":9705.48,"text":"我這樣講是當然跟經濟部也會過意見"},{"start":9705.48,"end":9707.48,"text":"最主要是說"},{"start":9707.48,"end":9709.48,"text":"因為對方的外交部長說我們沒有經貿關係的往來"},{"start":9709.48,"end":9711.48,"text":"那明明就有"},{"start":9711.48,"end":9713.48,"text":"你不能睜眼睛說瞎話"},{"start":9713.48,"end":9715.48,"text":"這件事情是不是也是操之在我"},{"start":9716.39,"end":9718.39,"text":"當然我們怎麼樣做"},{"start":9718.39,"end":9720.39,"text":"因為我們外交不是說只是為了表態"},{"start":9720.39,"end":9722.39,"text":"我們是要有效"},{"start":9722.39,"end":9724.39,"text":"所以我剛剛講說我們本來的"},{"start":9724.39,"end":9726.39,"text":"能源政策或是一些所謂的"},{"start":9726.39,"end":9728.39,"text":"油氣的採購"},{"start":9728.39,"end":9730.39,"text":"我們政府本來就不斷在"},{"start":9730.39,"end":9732.39,"text":"因為最近這個包括中東的戰事"},{"start":9732.39,"end":9734.39,"text":"包括我們跟美國採購跟投資"},{"start":9734.39,"end":9736.39,"text":"這個天然氣"},{"start":9736.39,"end":9738.39,"text":"這些都會必須放在整體上"},{"start":9738.39,"end":9740.39,"text":"八牛天然氣的總量會不會影響我國內經濟"},{"start":9740.39,"end":9742.39,"text":"你們自己評估"},{"start":9742.39,"end":9744.39,"text":"因為我們其實像你看中東戰事"},{"start":9744.39,"end":9746.39,"text":"發生之後我們在現貨市場上"},{"start":9746.39,"end":9748.39,"text":"的調度其實相當的靈活"},{"start":9748.39,"end":9750.39,"text":"有一些長約我們也在檢討"},{"start":9750.39,"end":9752.39,"text":"比如說我們跟卡達"},{"start":9752.39,"end":9754.39,"text":"因為我們現在有了經驗"},{"start":9754.39,"end":9756.39,"text":"我們會轉換"},{"start":9756.39,"end":9758.39,"text":"因為從太平洋另外一邊過來的"},{"start":9758.39,"end":9760.39,"text":"油氣大概比較不會涉及戰爭"},{"start":9760.39,"end":9762.39,"text":"我們現在足不足以打天然氣"},{"start":9762.39,"end":9764.39,"text":"這張牌"},{"start":9763.75,"end":9765.75,"text":"我們能不能夠打戰我們有沒有這個條件"},{"start":9765.75,"end":9767.75,"text":"外交是基於戶外"},{"start":9767.92,"end":9769.92,"text":"我們對我們平等對待"},{"start":9769.92,"end":9771.92,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9771.92,"end":9773.92,"text":"我們當然必須要做檢討"},{"start":9773.92,"end":9775.92,"text":"必要的因應"},{"start":9775.92,"end":9777.92,"text":"我報告委員"},{"start":9777.92,"end":9779.92,"text":"我們跟經濟部都有很好的討論"},{"start":9779.92,"end":9781.92,"text":"所以經濟部"},{"start":9781.92,"end":9783.92,"text":"有一些行為比如現貨市場上"},{"start":9783.92,"end":9785.92,"text":"我們有一些就可以不買"},{"start":9785.92,"end":9787.92,"text":"但是是不是"},{"start":9787.92,"end":9789.92,"text":"我們不是為了不買"},{"start":9789.92,"end":9791.92,"text":"我們是為了希望說讓對方了解"},{"start":9791.92,"end":9793.92,"text":"我們的關係是有經貿的往來"},{"start":9793.92,"end":9795.92,"text":"你要先嚇嚇他"},{"start":9795.92,"end":9797.92,"text":"對吧"},{"start":9797.92,"end":9799.92,"text":"告訴你講的不是事實"},{"start":9799.92,"end":9801.92,"text":"我的意思是說對方回應了沒"},{"start":9801.92,"end":9803.92,"text":"你現在說我現在"},{"start":9803.92,"end":9805.92,"text":"不排除動用天然氣"},{"start":9805.92,"end":9807.92,"text":"我姑且講你先嚇嚇他"},{"start":9807.92,"end":9809.92,"text":"我們要經貿其實大家都是互惠"},{"start":9809.92,"end":9811.92,"text":"不要說因為他們把它政治化"},{"start":9811.92,"end":9813.92,"text":"那當然我們要提醒"},{"start":9813.92,"end":9815.92,"text":"那巴牛善意回應了沒"},{"start":9815.92,"end":9817.92,"text":"你看我們跟他買天然氣"},{"start":9817.92,"end":9819.92,"text":"他把我們矮化"},{"start":9819.92,"end":9821.92,"text":"甚至否定的時候"},{"start":9821.92,"end":9823.92,"text":"我們怎麼知道這個也克襲能源安全"},{"start":9823.92,"end":9825.92,"text":"我也不能夠把雞蛋都放在同樣一個籃子裡面"},{"start":9825.92,"end":9827.92,"text":"是啊所以你現在"},{"start":9827.92,"end":9829.92,"text":"祭出這樣一個手段之後他們軟化了沒"},{"start":9829.92,"end":9831.92,"text":"我們要問的是成果"},{"start":9831.92,"end":9833.92,"text":"需要時間來消化"},{"start":9833.92,"end":9835.92,"text":"我們就持續交涉中"},{"start":9835.92,"end":9837.92,"text":"然後我們的友盟也溝通"},{"start":9837.92,"end":9839.92,"text":"然後他們也表示立場"},{"start":9839.92,"end":9841.92,"text":"也聲援台灣"},{"start":9841.92,"end":9843.92,"text":"而且也認為是中共的經濟脅迫"},{"start":9843.92,"end":9845.92,"text":"這個東西對台灣"},{"start":9845.92,"end":9847.92,"text":"對我們的全球夥伴進行這一種"},{"start":9847.92,"end":9849.92,"text":"就是說"},{"start":9849.92,"end":9851.92,"text":"這種打壓"},{"start":9851.92,"end":9853.92,"text":"這個是不符合"},{"start":9853.92,"end":9855.92,"text":"這些這個"},{"start":9855.92,"end":9857.92,"text":"不是你講的這些大道理大家都知道"},{"start":9857.92,"end":9859.92,"text":"但問題是我們都是看很實際的東西"},{"start":9859.92,"end":9861.92,"text":"我跟瑋瑜報告其實表面上是"},{"start":9861.92,"end":9863.92,"text":"巴牛跟台灣的關係背後是"},{"start":9863.92,"end":9865.92,"text":"更複雜的地緣政治"},{"start":9865.92,"end":9867.92,"text":"所以我們也是利害關係人"},{"start":9867.92,"end":9869.92,"text":"你都提了"},{"start":9869.92,"end":9871.92,"text":"你剛才回答馬文君委員的質詢的時候"},{"start":9871.92,"end":9873.92,"text":"你有講有試射其他國家的態度"},{"start":9873.92,"end":9875.92,"text":"哪些國家"},{"start":9875.92,"end":9877.92,"text":"他們制裁裡面有角色"},{"start":9877.92,"end":9879.92,"text":"我不能替他們講"},{"start":9879.92,"end":9881.92,"text":"陸續都有表示意見"},{"start":9881.92,"end":9883.92,"text":"而且這個就是共同大家的利害關係"},{"start":9883.92,"end":9885.92,"text":"已經不是說台灣跟巴牛之間"},{"start":9885.92,"end":9887.92,"text":"所以這些其他國家"},{"start":9887.92,"end":9889.92,"text":"是阻止我們打這張牌"},{"start":9889.92,"end":9891.92,"text":"還是鼓勵我們打這張牌"},{"start":9891.92,"end":9893.92,"text":"應該說他們都樂見台灣留在巴牛"},{"start":9893.92,"end":9895.92,"text":"所以他鼓勵你"},{"start":9895.92,"end":9897.92,"text":"所以我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":9897.92,"end":9899.92,"text":"我們也希望說太平洋不要被中國"},{"start":9899.92,"end":9901.92,"text":"他這個擴張"},{"start":9901.92,"end":9903.92,"text":"我講他們破壞了約當"},{"start":9903.92,"end":9905.92,"text":"如果要簽安全協定"},{"start":9905.92,"end":9907.92,"text":"或控制他的基礎建設"},{"start":9907.92,"end":9909.92,"text":"像是港口機場"},{"start":9909.92,"end":9911.92,"text":"那個問題是很嚴重"},{"start":9911.92,"end":9913.92,"text":"像吉里巴斯就是一個例子"},{"start":9913.92,"end":9915.92,"text":"很多地緣政治上天涯的國家"},{"start":9915.92,"end":9917.92,"text":"那問題是巴牛政府被說服了沒"},{"start":9917.92,"end":9919.92,"text":"現在你講有外部的"},{"start":9919.92,"end":9921.92,"text":"沒有 它現在還是這樣子"},{"start":9921.92,"end":9923.92,"text":"我們才剛開始在交涉中"},{"start":9923.92,"end":9925.92,"text":"這個部長既然你話都講出來了"},{"start":9925.92,"end":9927.92,"text":"大家其實都有期待"},{"start":9927.92,"end":9929.92,"text":"我講嘛 外交上可以操之在"},{"start":9929.92,"end":9931.92,"text":"有條件的時候有的時候要強硬以對"},{"start":9931.92,"end":9933.92,"text":"我們現在先爭取點時間"},{"start":9933.92,"end":9935.92,"text":"可以做交涉"},{"start":9935.92,"end":9937.92,"text":"有空間之後我們也希望這個事情有轉圜"},{"start":9937.92,"end":9939.92,"text":"我最後就提醒你啦"},{"start":9939.92,"end":9941.92,"text":"你要一段時間來操作"},{"start":9941.92,"end":9943.92,"text":"因為總是要試探一下 這本題都理解"},{"start":9943.92,"end":9945.92,"text":"這是外交的常理"},{"start":9945.92,"end":9947.92,"text":"但是問題是你不能到最後拖著拖著"},{"start":9947.92,"end":9949.92,"text":"輿論風頭過了就傳過水無痕"},{"start":9949.92,"end":9951.92,"text":"這樣就非常不好啦"},{"start":9951.92,"end":9953.92,"text":"就表示你疑似要打這張牌"},{"start":9953.92,"end":9955.92,"text":"但沒有獲知任何的效果"},{"start":9955.92,"end":9957.92,"text":"你也沒有辦法貫徹"},{"start":9957.92,"end":9959.92,"text":"那我覺得在外交上他就會留下負面的印象"},{"start":9959.92,"end":9961.92,"text":"因為人家吃定你軟弱嘛"},{"start":9961.92,"end":9963.92,"text":"不能這樣子 好不好"},{"start":9963.92,"end":9965.92,"text":"那要跟國人大眾做清楚說明"},{"start":9965.92,"end":9967.92,"text":"不然這張牌就白打"},{"start":9967.92,"end":9969.92,"text":"不要說指紋柔體響不見得忍下來 好不好"},{"start":9971.4,"end":9973.4,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員"},{"start":9973.4,"end":9975.4,"text":"我們接下來請賴世寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":9984.56,"end":9986.56,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進"},{"start":9986.56,"end":9988.56,"text":"有請外交部的林部長"},{"start":9988.56,"end":9990.56,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":9997.51,"end":9999.51,"text":"委員好"},{"start":9999.51,"end":10001.51,"text":"部長你好 辛苦了"},{"start":10001.51,"end":10003.51,"text":"這樣總來總去"},{"start":10003.51,"end":10005.51,"text":"我們現在在審預算期間"},{"start":10005.51,"end":10007.51,"text":"有一項"},{"start":10007.51,"end":10009.51,"text":"我就百思不得其解"},{"start":10009.51,"end":10011.51,"text":"你現在這樣開會"},{"start":10011.51,"end":10013.51,"text":"國際會議及交流"},{"start":10015.77,"end":10017.77,"text":"變的預算居然變的快要10億"},{"start":10019.41,"end":10021.41,"text":"比去年增加了"},{"start":10021.41,"end":10023.41,"text":"7億多"},{"start":10023.41,"end":10025.41,"text":"成長2.5倍"},{"start":10025.41,"end":10027.41,"text":"拜託你也稍微說明一下"},{"start":10027.41,"end":10029.41,"text":"是怎樣開會"},{"start":10029.41,"end":10031.41,"text":"這樣協助"},{"start":10031.41,"end":10033.41,"text":"各種的國際交流"},{"start":10033.41,"end":10035.41,"text":"活動"},{"start":10035.41,"end":10037.41,"text":"是怎樣"},{"start":10037.41,"end":10039.41,"text":"5星期 6星期 7星期"},{"start":10039.41,"end":10041.41,"text":"國際會議去開"},{"start":10041.41,"end":10043.41,"text":"大家吃特別好"},{"start":10043.41,"end":10045.41,"text":"還是都坐頭等艙"},{"start":10045.41,"end":10047.41,"text":"為什麼成長2.5倍"},{"start":10047.41,"end":10049.41,"text":"要卡呢"},{"start":10048.91,"end":10050.91,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10050.91,"end":10052.91,"text":"台灣現在在國家越來越重要"},{"start":10052.91,"end":10054.91,"text":"大家都想跟我們來往"},{"start":10054.91,"end":10056.91,"text":"你看我們現在這個GDP已經是G20"},{"start":10056.91,"end":10058.91,"text":"我們那個股市G7"},{"start":10058.91,"end":10060.91,"text":"所以大家想跟我們來往"},{"start":10060.91,"end":10062.91,"text":"我們當然要開大門"},{"start":10062.91,"end":10064.91,"text":"讓大家跟我們雙向的"},{"start":10064.91,"end":10066.91,"text":"他來我們卻"},{"start":10066.91,"end":10068.91,"text":"不只是所謂的會議"},{"start":10068.91,"end":10070.91,"text":"這有很多交流"},{"start":10070.91,"end":10072.91,"text":"我們有農邦計畫"},{"start":10072.91,"end":10074.91,"text":"國際交流活動"},{"start":10074.91,"end":10076.91,"text":"是國際會議"},{"start":10076.91,"end":10078.91,"text":"開會"},{"start":10078.91,"end":10080.91,"text":"開會大家想到就是場地"},{"start":10080.91,"end":10082.91,"text":"然後什麼人出席"},{"start":10082.91,"end":10084.91,"text":"現在大家都這樣"},{"start":10084.91,"end":10086.91,"text":"這開到為什麼要貴這麼多"},{"start":10086.91,"end":10088.91,"text":"有來講一下"},{"start":10088.91,"end":10090.91,"text":"有嗎 幾場大的"},{"start":10090.91,"end":10092.91,"text":"新增加的有沒有"},{"start":10092.91,"end":10094.91,"text":"報告委員像我農邦計畫"},{"start":10094.91,"end":10096.91,"text":"就有八大旗艦半導體供應鏈"},{"start":10096.91,"end":10098.91,"text":"韌性可信賴網路與"},{"start":10098.91,"end":10100.91,"text":"世衛處理新能源與探全合作"},{"start":10100.91,"end":10102.91,"text":"這個很多經濟部的"},{"start":10102.91,"end":10104.91,"text":"可以做的"},{"start":10104.91,"end":10106.91,"text":"智慧新農業永續觀光跟主流"},{"start":10106.91,"end":10108.91,"text":"八大旗艦機關"},{"start":10108.91,"end":10110.91,"text":"這些都是我們現在拿得出來"},{"start":10110.91,"end":10112.91,"text":"跟人家交流開會還有合作"},{"start":10112.91,"end":10114.91,"text":"你不開會怎麼樣合作投資"},{"start":10114.91,"end":10116.91,"text":"好啦你現在"},{"start":10116.91,"end":10118.91,"text":"反正我要看你這批預算就對了"},{"start":10118.91,"end":10120.91,"text":"報告委員手下留情"},{"start":10120.91,"end":10122.91,"text":"砍多少再說"},{"start":10122.91,"end":10124.91,"text":"這個太離譜了"},{"start":10124.91,"end":10126.91,"text":"增加2.5倍"},{"start":10126.91,"end":10128.91,"text":"夭壽"},{"start":10128.91,"end":10130.91,"text":"你看你們的官員"},{"start":10130.91,"end":10132.91,"text":"就搖頭"},{"start":10132.91,"end":10134.91,"text":"他們都搖頭"},{"start":10134.91,"end":10136.91,"text":"我看到好幾個搖頭"},{"start":10136.91,"end":10138.91,"text":"我一看好幾個搖頭"},{"start":10138.91,"end":10140.91,"text":"他們認得我的話"},{"start":10140.91,"end":10142.91,"text":"太離譜了"},{"start":10142.91,"end":10144.91,"text":"報告委員外交走的出去"},{"start":10144.91,"end":10146.91,"text":"是國家的福氣"},{"start":10146.91,"end":10148.91,"text":"你給我"},{"start":10148.91,"end":10150.91,"text":"你給我細節好不好"},{"start":10150.91,"end":10152.91,"text":"我們待會補個委員"},{"start":10152.91,"end":10154.91,"text":"等一下補資料"},{"start":10154.91,"end":10156.91,"text":"我們現在關心的是今天的題目"},{"start":10156.91,"end":10158.91,"text":"其實報告委員我們外交國防委員都很支持"},{"start":10158.91,"end":10160.91,"text":"太沒有道理"},{"start":10160.91,"end":10162.91,"text":"這個東西增加7億"},{"start":10162.91,"end":10164.91,"text":"就不得了了"},{"start":10164.91,"end":10166.91,"text":"增加7億是要開會"},{"start":10166.91,"end":10168.91,"text":"你像我們中東後公寓念任性二姐"},{"start":10168.91,"end":10170.91,"text":"我們現在加上波瀾"},{"start":10170.91,"end":10172.91,"text":"我們現在"},{"start":10172.91,"end":10174.91,"text":"好啦好啦這個事情不講了"},{"start":10174.91,"end":10176.91,"text":"我就跟你講說這個太離譜了"},{"start":10176.91,"end":10178.91,"text":"增加7億開會"},{"start":10178.91,"end":10180.91,"text":"增加7億不知道開什麼會"},{"start":10180.91,"end":10182.91,"text":"增加7億增加2.5倍"},{"start":10182.91,"end":10184.91,"text":"看不到"},{"start":10184.91,"end":10186.91,"text":"來來來"},{"start":10187.96,"end":10189.96,"text":"太平島明明是島"},{"start":10189.96,"end":10191.96,"text":"為什麼不敢捍衛主權"},{"start":10193.02,"end":10195.02,"text":"日本的蟲之鳥鳥"},{"start":10195.02,"end":10197.02,"text":"小小像塌塌米安捏"},{"start":10197.02,"end":10199.02,"text":"結果日本就說是島"},{"start":10199.8,"end":10201.8,"text":"這個就是道地的雙標"},{"start":10202.94,"end":10204.94,"text":"結果我們就歸索"},{"start":10204.94,"end":10206.94,"text":"你剛才一直說"},{"start":10206.94,"end":10208.94,"text":"海西屬有趣"},{"start":10208.94,"end":10210.94,"text":"層級太低啦"},{"start":10210.94,"end":10212.94,"text":"不要忘了第一個登上太平島的"},{"start":10212.94,"end":10214.94,"text":"是民進黨"},{"start":10214.94,"end":10216.94,"text":"實戰的陳水扁總統"},{"start":10216.94,"end":10218.94,"text":"第一位"},{"start":10219.4,"end":10221.4,"text":"馬英九是第二位"},{"start":10221.4,"end":10223.4,"text":"蔡英文都不敢去"},{"start":10223.4,"end":10225.4,"text":"蔡英文膽子這麼小"},{"start":10225.4,"end":10227.4,"text":"有外面說法是因為"},{"start":10227.4,"end":10229.4,"text":"美國反對我們的國家"},{"start":10229.4,"end":10231.4,"text":"所登島"},{"start":10232.91,"end":10234.91,"text":"米歐"},{"start":10233.94,"end":10235.94,"text":"蛤"},{"start":10235.49,"end":10237.49,"text":"沒有啊 有去過啊"},{"start":10237.37,"end":10239.37,"text":"什麼有去過啊"},{"start":10240.24,"end":10242.24,"text":"那清德到現在為止沒有去過啊"},{"start":10243.07,"end":10245.07,"text":"怎麼會有去過呢 哪裡有去過"},{"start":10245.48,"end":10247.48,"text":"沒有啊 怎麼有"},{"start":10247.48,"end":10249.48,"text":"陳水扁總統"},{"start":10249.48,"end":10251.48,"text":"我那時候是總統 我們互利去打"},{"start":10251.48,"end":10253.48,"text":"那很久以前 我就跟他一起去"},{"start":10253.48,"end":10255.48,"text":"那2008年"},{"start":10255.48,"end":10257.48,"text":"2008"},{"start":10257.48,"end":10259.48,"text":"那後來為什麼你們執政了十年"},{"start":10259.48,"end":10261.48,"text":"都不敢去"},{"start":10261.48,"end":10263.48,"text":"馬英九去囉"},{"start":10263.48,"end":10265.48,"text":"馬英九實際講什麼"},{"start":10265.48,"end":10267.48,"text":"他召開國安會議 強調"},{"start":10267.48,"end":10269.48,"text":"十九"},{"start":10267.64,"end":10269.64,"text":"不是島 他講的是蟲子鳥"},{"start":10269.64,"end":10271.64,"text":"然後呢 因為日本"},{"start":10271.64,"end":10273.64,"text":"硬要說蟲子鳥叫是島"},{"start":10273.64,"end":10275.64,"text":"他就有經濟海域"},{"start":10275.64,"end":10277.64,"text":"200海浬"},{"start":10277.64,"end":10279.64,"text":"然後召見日本駐台大使"},{"start":10279.64,"end":10281.64,"text":"表達抗議"},{"start":10282.31,"end":10284.31,"text":"在華爾街日報投書"},{"start":10284.31,"end":10286.31,"text":"強調一"},{"start":10285.88,"end":10287.88,"text":"去聯合國海洋公約"},{"start":10287.88,"end":10289.88,"text":"121條"},{"start":10290.03,"end":10292.03,"text":"講得這麼清楚"},{"start":10292.03,"end":10294.03,"text":"馬英九那時候是多強硬"},{"start":10294.03,"end":10296.03,"text":"相比現在"},{"start":10296.03,"end":10298.03,"text":"賴清德是多麼的軟弱"},{"start":10298.03,"end":10300.03,"text":"因為碰到日本"},{"start":10300.03,"end":10302.03,"text":"他又一向崇拜日本的"},{"start":10302.03,"end":10304.03,"text":"賴清德總統"},{"start":10304.03,"end":10306.03,"text":"鬼說啦 點指使"},{"start":10306.03,"end":10308.03,"text":"到現在為止你也不敢講話"},{"start":10308.03,"end":10310.03,"text":"對不對 你敢講說"},{"start":10310.03,"end":10312.03,"text":"有啊 太平島是島啊 不然怎麼叫太平島"},{"start":10312.03,"end":10314.03,"text":"什麼東西 太平島當然是島啊"},{"start":10314.03,"end":10316.03,"text":"怎麼叫太平島"},{"start":10316.03,"end":10318.03,"text":"我們來總裁你還不抗議一下"},{"start":10318.03,"end":10320.03,"text":"老實講 我們的立場啊"},{"start":10320.03,"end":10322.03,"text":"跟你講一個很重要的"},{"start":10322.03,"end":10326.03,"text":"我們不接受把這個我們的太平島變成什麼其他什麼鳥或鳥或什麼之類的"},{"start":10326.03,"end":10328.03,"text":"跟你講什麼鳥什麼鳥"},{"start":10329.13,"end":10331.13,"text":"這個東西部長啊"},{"start":10331.13,"end":10333.13,"text":"有一個東西現象你要記住喔"},{"start":10334.16,"end":10336.16,"text":"當菲律賓跟日本"},{"start":10336.16,"end":10338.16,"text":"劃進去海域的時候"},{"start":10338.16,"end":10340.16,"text":"把台灣劃進去"},{"start":10340.16,"end":10342.16,"text":"我們點指使"},{"start":10342.16,"end":10344.16,"text":"你有發生不夠"},{"start":10344.16,"end":10346.16,"text":"要有動作"},{"start":10346.16,"end":10348.16,"text":"醒出來喔"},{"start":10348.16,"end":10350.16,"text":"結果老公就來了"},{"start":10350.16,"end":10352.16,"text":"他本來就在那邊找藉口了"},{"start":10352.16,"end":10354.16,"text":"他本來就在那邊好久了"},{"start":10354.16,"end":10356.16,"text":"你不必那麼興奮 提到老公你就那麼興奮"},{"start":10356.16,"end":10358.16,"text":"你看大聲的 敢這樣而已"},{"start":10357.96,"end":10359.96,"text":"日本的不敢大聲 美國不敢大聲"},{"start":10359.96,"end":10361.96,"text":"對老公大聲 因為你知道有票喔"},{"start":10361.96,"end":10363.96,"text":"這個我們都理解"},{"start":10363.96,"end":10365.96,"text":"沒關係 我們都理解喔"},{"start":10365.96,"end":10367.96,"text":"有選票啦"},{"start":10367.96,"end":10369.96,"text":"罵老公就有選票 大家都知道喔"},{"start":10369.96,"end":10371.96,"text":"但是我們就是論事"},{"start":10374.17,"end":10376.17,"text":"當我們對東海 南海"},{"start":10376.17,"end":10378.17,"text":"這一些東西"},{"start":10378.17,"end":10380.17,"text":"台灣不站出來 老公就出來了"},{"start":10380.27,"end":10382.27,"text":"老公就出來了"},{"start":10382.27,"end":10384.27,"text":"所以你等於自我限縮"},{"start":10384.27,"end":10386.27,"text":"讓台灣現在的我們的"},{"start":10386.27,"end":10388.27,"text":"我們的這個福地就越來越小"},{"start":10388.27,"end":10390.27,"text":"越來越小 變這個樣子"},{"start":10390.27,"end":10392.27,"text":"南海也是一樣 太平島也是一樣"},{"start":10392.27,"end":10394.27,"text":"你不來"},{"start":10394.27,"end":10396.27,"text":"就 老公就來了"},{"start":10396.26,"end":10398.26,"text":"經濟海域到東岸"},{"start":10398.26,"end":10400.26,"text":"老公就來了 竟然這麼清楚的現象"},{"start":10400.26,"end":10402.26,"text":"所以 當"},{"start":10403.38,"end":10405.38,"text":"賴清的總統不敢去等太平島的時候"},{"start":10405.38,"end":10407.38,"text":"老公就來了"},{"start":10407.38,"end":10409.38,"text":"為什麼老公現在跟菲律賓"},{"start":10409.38,"end":10411.38,"text":"你敢講這句話喔"},{"start":10411.13,"end":10413.13,"text":"你要不要講具體一點"},{"start":10413.13,"end":10415.13,"text":"會擦槍走狐嗎"},{"start":10415.69,"end":10417.69,"text":"老公 老公"},{"start":10445.69,"end":10447.69,"text":"有可能擦槍走狐 你看"},{"start":10447.69,"end":10449.69,"text":"有時候水柱現在又棒子"},{"start":10449.69,"end":10451.69,"text":"然後有時候武器"},{"start":10451.69,"end":10453.69,"text":"其他的這些都有可能"},{"start":10453.69,"end":10455.69,"text":"所以我們也密切關注"},{"start":10455.69,"end":10457.69,"text":"因為這個也會影響到我們"},{"start":10457.69,"end":10459.69,"text":"其實台海東北海是連在一起的"},{"start":10460.19,"end":10462.19,"text":"當你在這裡"},{"start":10462.19,"end":10464.19,"text":"回到我的時候有講了一句話"},{"start":10464.19,"end":10466.19,"text":"所以 高市長廟講的"},{"start":10467.66,"end":10469.66,"text":"講的話 台灣有時候日本有時候類似"},{"start":10471.46,"end":10473.46,"text":"中日關係會不好一整年"},{"start":10473.46,"end":10475.46,"text":"我看起來你講對的"},{"start":10475.54,"end":10477.54,"text":"一年對不對 一年以上"},{"start":10477.54,"end":10479.54,"text":"到目前為止沒有好轉"},{"start":10479.54,"end":10481.54,"text":"所以這個是你講對的"},{"start":10481.54,"end":10483.54,"text":"那現在呢 我也很擔心你講對喔"},{"start":10483.54,"end":10485.54,"text":"如果這個"},{"start":10485.68,"end":10487.68,"text":"中國大陸跟菲律賓會不會打起來"},{"start":10487.68,"end":10489.68,"text":"會不會打起來"},{"start":10489.29,"end":10491.29,"text":"這不是我的看法 這是國際"},{"start":10491.59,"end":10493.59,"text":"這個觀察家還有一些政府"},{"start":10493.59,"end":10495.59,"text":"大家其中密切的注意"},{"start":10495.59,"end":10497.59,"text":"所以 經濟學人雜誌說台灣很危險"},{"start":10497.59,"end":10499.59,"text":"你聽了看了高興"},{"start":10499.59,"end":10501.59,"text":"所以那個是錯的嘛 因為他講了老半天"},{"start":10501.59,"end":10503.59,"text":"一直講 但事實上都不是"},{"start":10503.59,"end":10505.59,"text":"我們對維持台灣和平穩定很努力"},{"start":10505.59,"end":10507.59,"text":"也有一些"},{"start":10507.59,"end":10509.59,"text":"所以我剛才聽你的感覺好像"},{"start":10509.59,"end":10511.59,"text":"經濟學人雜誌說台灣很危險"},{"start":10511.59,"end":10513.59,"text":"你好像很高興的樣子"},{"start":10514.17,"end":10516.17,"text":"我們台灣喔 我們是"},{"start":10516.17,"end":10518.17,"text":"我們自己是"},{"start":10518.17,"end":10520.17,"text":"沒有很高興"},{"start":10520.17,"end":10522.17,"text":"沒有沒有 我是說其實地表上危險的地方很多"},{"start":10522.17,"end":10524.17,"text":"但是危不危險關鍵在我們自己"},{"start":10524.17,"end":10526.17,"text":"我們自己當然要捍衛自己的"},{"start":10526.17,"end":10528.17,"text":"我們自己的自我防衛的能力跟決心"},{"start":10528.17,"end":10530.17,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10530.96,"end":10532.96,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10532.96,"end":10534.96,"text":"謝謝賴委員"},{"start":10534.96,"end":10536.96,"text":"我們接下來請中嘉賓委員上台諮詢"},{"start":10548.81,"end":10550.81,"text":"主席 再讓委員先進"},{"start":10550.81,"end":10552.81,"text":"列席的政府交通局長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體 記者女士先生"},{"start":10552.81,"end":10554.81,"text":"有請林部長"},{"start":10554.81,"end":10556.81,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":10559.51,"end":10561.51,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10562.03,"end":10564.03,"text":"部長好"},{"start":10564.03,"end":10566.03,"text":"我這邊別了一個國籍徽章 這麼遠你應該看不出來"},{"start":10566.03,"end":10568.03,"text":"我一看就知道 那個"},{"start":10568.03,"end":10570.03,"text":"柏劉的 柏劉這麼厲害"},{"start":10570.03,"end":10572.03,"text":"這幾個有蔡宇委員"},{"start":10572.03,"end":10574.03,"text":"翁張良縣長 我們的蕭副總統"},{"start":10574.03,"end":10576.03,"text":"這個是誰"},{"start":10576.44,"end":10578.44,"text":"柏劉副總統"},{"start":10578.44,"end":10580.44,"text":"他昨天在嘉義上官邸"},{"start":10580.44,"end":10582.44,"text":"我最近跑了兩趟嘉義"},{"start":10582.44,"end":10584.44,"text":"另外一趟呢 去考察"},{"start":10584.44,"end":10586.44,"text":"跟蔡宇委員去考察亞創無人機中心"},{"start":10586.44,"end":10588.44,"text":"這兩個議題都跟你有關 我現在一個一個講"},{"start":10588.44,"end":10590.44,"text":"先來柏劉 往下看"},{"start":10590.44,"end":10592.44,"text":"以柏劉為媒介 我們是有可能來建立一個"},{"start":10592.44,"end":10594.44,"text":"南泰的經濟共同體"},{"start":10594.44,"end":10596.44,"text":"我們都知道 我們可能"},{"start":10596.44,"end":10598.44,"text":"月底 八月底有一個PIF的會議"},{"start":10598.44,"end":10600.44,"text":"在柏劉進行 他是主辦國對不對"},{"start":10600.44,"end":10602.44,"text":"對"},{"start":10602.44,"end":10604.44,"text":"那我們台灣會很重視會去參加 因為我們剛剛是邦交國"},{"start":10604.44,"end":10606.44,"text":"是"},{"start":10607.13,"end":10609.13,"text":"柏劉的邦交國 除了台灣之外"},{"start":10609.13,"end":10611.13,"text":"有在那邊設大使館的 還有哪些國家"},{"start":10611.13,"end":10613.13,"text":"美日澳都有"},{"start":10613.13,"end":10615.13,"text":"還有台灣 一共只有四個國家"},{"start":10615.13,"end":10617.13,"text":"在柏劉設有大使館"},{"start":10617.13,"end":10619.13,"text":"那我們又有人提議 邱釗偉他就說"},{"start":10619.13,"end":10621.13,"text":"英美日"},{"start":10621.13,"end":10623.13,"text":"英美加澳紐"},{"start":10623.13,"end":10625.13,"text":"有一個五眼聯盟共享情報"},{"start":10625.13,"end":10627.13,"text":"那我們目前外交"},{"start":10627.13,"end":10629.13,"text":"處境就像您剛回答"},{"start":10629.13,"end":10631.13,"text":"委員的詢答 我們很艱難"},{"start":10631.13,"end":10633.13,"text":"但是我們很努力"},{"start":10633.13,"end":10635.13,"text":"有沒有可能 不是要說情報啦"},{"start":10635.13,"end":10637.13,"text":"我們經濟資訊共同體的共享"},{"start":10637.13,"end":10639.13,"text":"有沒有可能我們透過柏劉"},{"start":10639.13,"end":10641.13,"text":"跟澳洲 美國和日本"},{"start":10641.13,"end":10643.13,"text":"組一個 我們這樣的一個"},{"start":10643.13,"end":10645.13,"text":"太平洋的一個經濟資訊共同體呢"},{"start":10646.59,"end":10648.59,"text":"概念上當然是可以啦"},{"start":10648.59,"end":10650.59,"text":"不過在那裡 所謂"},{"start":10650.59,"end":10652.59,"text":"我們其實這些"},{"start":10652.59,"end":10654.59,"text":"裡面相近國家一起都在幫助柏劉"},{"start":10654.59,"end":10656.59,"text":"發展 我們在太平洋"},{"start":10656.59,"end":10658.59,"text":"有三個邦交國 我們也把它串聯起來"},{"start":10658.59,"end":10660.59,"text":"其中兩個是美國"},{"start":10660.59,"end":10662.59,"text":"的那個COFA"},{"start":10662.59,"end":10664.59,"text":"自由協定的一個"},{"start":10664.59,"end":10666.59,"text":"一個聯盟"},{"start":10666.59,"end":10668.59,"text":"那個 我們比如說"},{"start":10668.59,"end":10670.59,"text":"我們在土華路也是跟其他國家"},{"start":10670.59,"end":10672.59,"text":"一起 包括美日澳紐"},{"start":10672.59,"end":10674.59,"text":"在做那個"},{"start":10674.59,"end":10676.59,"text":"海南的延伸啦"},{"start":10676.59,"end":10678.59,"text":"那個跟他們發展很重要 所以"},{"start":10678.59,"end":10680.59,"text":"確實最近的跨德"},{"start":10680.59,"end":10682.59,"text":"就是這個四國"},{"start":10682.59,"end":10684.59,"text":"有想要再包括柏劉"},{"start":10684.59,"end":10686.59,"text":"對他們的國家的醫院重建"},{"start":10686.59,"end":10688.59,"text":"是 醫院重建"},{"start":10688.59,"end":10690.59,"text":"台灣 因為在那邊"},{"start":10690.59,"end":10692.59,"text":"我們也參與其中"},{"start":10692.59,"end":10694.59,"text":"所以我們適度的透過PIV"},{"start":10694.59,"end":10696.59,"text":"來表達台灣跟另外"},{"start":10696.59,"end":10698.59,"text":"三個國家共同來協助柏劉的"},{"start":10698.59,"end":10700.59,"text":"經濟發展和相關的醫療"},{"start":10700.59,"end":10702.59,"text":"好 那往下看 另外一個議題"},{"start":10702.59,"end":10704.59,"text":"有去了 有去了"},{"start":10704.59,"end":10706.59,"text":"我剛說我去嘉義看無人機"},{"start":10706.59,"end":10708.59,"text":"亞創中心跟蔡宇宜 這跟外交部"},{"start":10708.59,"end":10710.59,"text":"有關係 無人機跟外交部什麼關係"},{"start":10711.29,"end":10713.29,"text":"因為各國都想跟台灣"},{"start":10713.29,"end":10715.29,"text":"往來 就是包括無人機的"},{"start":10715.29,"end":10717.29,"text":"不管是產業啦"},{"start":10717.29,"end":10719.29,"text":"或他在安全上的應用"},{"start":10719.29,"end":10721.29,"text":"因為"},{"start":10721.29,"end":10723.29,"text":"他是真的是現在這個無人載具"},{"start":10723.29,"end":10725.29,"text":"因為我想在二戰爭"},{"start":10725.29,"end":10727.29,"text":"發生之後大家也知道他的"},{"start":10727.29,"end":10729.29,"text":"角色最大的重要 所以外交部成立一個"},{"start":10729.29,"end":10731.29,"text":"無人機國際學院對不對"},{"start":10731.29,"end":10733.29,"text":"不是 這個是說外交部有無人機"},{"start":10733.29,"end":10735.29,"text":"這個外交的小組"},{"start":10735.29,"end":10737.29,"text":"那我們去輔導"},{"start":10737.29,"end":10739.29,"text":"希望能夠有這些"},{"start":10739.29,"end":10741.29,"text":"民間還有這些產學員"},{"start":10741.29,"end":10743.29,"text":"能夠組織一個這個所有的"},{"start":10743.29,"end":10745.29,"text":"前幾天才去跟日本簽訂了合作意樣書"},{"start":10745.29,"end":10747.29,"text":"要推飛鴻供應鏈 有這樣子的"},{"start":10747.29,"end":10749.29,"text":"有嗎 有"},{"start":10749.29,"end":10751.29,"text":"所以包括我們南太的這三個"},{"start":10751.29,"end":10753.29,"text":"邦交國 包括澳洲跟"},{"start":10753.29,"end":10755.29,"text":"菲律賓 是不是我們可以繼續"},{"start":10755.29,"end":10757.29,"text":"在南太跟東南亞來"},{"start":10757.29,"end":10759.29,"text":"推進合作 可以"},{"start":10759.29,"end":10761.29,"text":"我們的農邦計畫就把無人機納入"},{"start":10761.29,"end":10763.29,"text":"未來因為無人載具功能"},{"start":10763.29,"end":10765.29,"text":"很多嘛 不只是"},{"start":10765.29,"end":10767.29,"text":"設計功能很多 來 不好意思"},{"start":10767.29,"end":10769.29,"text":"我們看到的都是多懸弈的那種小型的"},{"start":10769.29,"end":10771.29,"text":"FPV啦 你有沒有聽過"},{"start":10771.29,"end":10773.29,"text":"現在已經有可以載重"},{"start":10773.29,"end":10775.29,"text":"三到五公噸的"},{"start":10775.29,"end":10777.29,"text":"無人貨機 它的航程呢"},{"start":10777.29,"end":10779.29,"text":"300公尺就可以起降"},{"start":10779.29,"end":10781.29,"text":"然後可以飛2000公里"},{"start":10781.29,"end":10783.29,"text":"有沒有掌握到這樣的無人貨機的趨勢"},{"start":10783.29,"end":10785.29,"text":"有知道"},{"start":10785.29,"end":10787.29,"text":"有知道啦 好 來 往上我們推到中華郵政"},{"start":10787.29,"end":10789.29,"text":"來 這個事情也是無人機"},{"start":10789.29,"end":10791.29,"text":"跟外交部也很關心 那我們來談談中華郵政"},{"start":10791.29,"end":10793.29,"text":"請你當過交通部的部長"},{"start":10793.29,"end":10795.29,"text":"知道中華郵政依法可以"},{"start":10795.29,"end":10797.29,"text":"運送 運營 海陸 空運"},{"start":10797.29,"end":10799.29,"text":"國內的包裹以及國際包裹"},{"start":10799.29,"end":10801.29,"text":"國際包裹有存航空的 有陸空的 有水空的"},{"start":10801.29,"end":10803.29,"text":"因為郵政法寫啊"},{"start":10803.29,"end":10805.29,"text":"反而以運送為業的這些交通設施"},{"start":10805.29,"end":10807.29,"text":"航空器都要讓我們的"},{"start":10807.29,"end":10809.29,"text":"郵政包裹有優先通行權"},{"start":10809.29,"end":10811.29,"text":"是不是這樣子"},{"start":10810.59,"end":10812.59,"text":"對 好 但是我們看中華郵政"},{"start":10812.59,"end":10814.59,"text":"它如果在國內"},{"start":10814.93,"end":10816.93,"text":"它在入運上競爭太多跟它競爭的了"},{"start":10816.93,"end":10818.93,"text":"這些呢"},{"start":10820.11,"end":10822.11,"text":"中華郵政大概不是它的對手"},{"start":10822.11,"end":10824.11,"text":"但是以中華郵政來講它的優勢呢"},{"start":10824.11,"end":10826.11,"text":"我那時候建議過它"},{"start":10826.11,"end":10828.11,"text":"它應該思考一下公路"},{"start":10828.11,"end":10830.11,"text":"航港跟航空啊"},{"start":10830.11,"end":10832.11,"text":"這些入運的這些民營公司"},{"start":10832.11,"end":10834.11,"text":"是沒有辦法呢跟中華郵政"},{"start":10835.27,"end":10837.27,"text":"來競爭的"},{"start":10837.27,"end":10839.27,"text":"因為中華郵政有中華郵政法的一個保障"},{"start":10839.27,"end":10841.27,"text":"所以它可以經營這些"},{"start":10841.27,"end":10843.27,"text":"海跟空的業務"},{"start":10843.27,"end":10845.27,"text":"部長是不是這樣子"},{"start":10845.27,"end":10847.27,"text":"但是我現在想談一個事情"},{"start":10847.27,"end":10849.27,"text":"就是最近啊 我知道我常常去菲律賓"},{"start":10849.27,"end":10851.27,"text":"也知道外交部在菲律賓的關係很用力"},{"start":10851.27,"end":10853.27,"text":"那我們談一個菲律賓跟台灣"},{"start":10853.27,"end":10855.27,"text":"目前關係很密切"},{"start":10855.27,"end":10857.27,"text":"因為有移工的郵寄需求"},{"start":10857.27,"end":10859.27,"text":"我們有台商的郵寄需求"},{"start":10859.27,"end":10861.27,"text":"那過去呢"},{"start":10861.27,"end":10863.27,"text":"這個圖上下有點顛倒了"},{"start":10863.27,"end":10865.27,"text":"如果說今天我們中華郵政"},{"start":10865.27,"end":10867.27,"text":"它要跟菲律賓有這個"},{"start":10867.27,"end":10869.27,"text":"郵務包裹它必須透過什麼"},{"start":10869.27,"end":10871.27,"text":"三大國際物流啊包括DHL"},{"start":10871.27,"end":10873.27,"text":"包括聯邦包UPS對不對"},{"start":10873.27,"end":10875.27,"text":"那這些都是航空公司"},{"start":10875.27,"end":10877.27,"text":"那請教一下考考你"},{"start":10877.27,"end":10879.27,"text":"無人貨機"},{"start":10879.6,"end":10881.6,"text":"要不要成立航空公司才能營運"},{"start":10882.08,"end":10884.08,"text":"不用啊"},{"start":10884.08,"end":10886.08,"text":"因為呢的確我請教過民航局"},{"start":10886.08,"end":10888.08,"text":"民航局目前呢在修民航航空法"},{"start":10888.08,"end":10890.08,"text":"他對無人載具"},{"start":10890.08,"end":10892.08,"text":"有特別的去研究過"},{"start":10892.08,"end":10894.08,"text":"如果你是無人載具"},{"start":10894.08,"end":10896.08,"text":"沒有人的載具"},{"start":10896.08,"end":10898.08,"text":"他的安全性跟我們有人航空的是"},{"start":10898.08,"end":10900.08,"text":"完全不同的"},{"start":10900.08,"end":10902.08,"text":"所以目前民航航空法基本上是規範的是"},{"start":10902.08,"end":10904.08,"text":"有人的航空器他的貨運特運如何如何如何"},{"start":10904.08,"end":10906.08,"text":"但是如果是無人貨機"},{"start":10906.08,"end":10908.08,"text":"我問過他"},{"start":10908.08,"end":10910.08,"text":"他說無人貨機目前呢大概未來啊"},{"start":10910.08,"end":10912.08,"text":"不需要用航空公司來確定"},{"start":10912.08,"end":10914.08,"text":"反過來我曾經問過王國材"},{"start":10914.08,"end":10916.08,"text":"董事長我說那你中華"},{"start":10916.08,"end":10918.08,"text":"郵政可不可以成立一個無人貨機公司"},{"start":10918.08,"end":10920.08,"text":"你覺得有沒有可能性"},{"start":10920.32,"end":10922.32,"text":"有可能啊"},{"start":10933.39,"end":10935.39,"text":"這個三大國際物流用航空的話"},{"start":10935.39,"end":10937.39,"text":"恐怕在航圈上呢會受到"},{"start":10937.39,"end":10939.39,"text":"中共的影響"},{"start":10939.39,"end":10941.39,"text":"所以最後的建議主席站起來了"},{"start":10941.39,"end":10943.39,"text":"是不是"},{"start":10942,"end":10944,"text":"我們請兩件事情"},{"start":10944,"end":10946,"text":"以柏林為中介來發展一個"},{"start":10946,"end":10948,"text":"透過PIF跟南泰各國表達"},{"start":10948,"end":10952,"text":"我們這五個國家來有一個經濟合作發展的一個組織"},{"start":10952,"end":10954,"text":"好不好可以研議一下吧"},{"start":10954.72,"end":10956.72,"text":"就是好我們來研議"},{"start":10956.72,"end":10958.72,"text":"另外我希望外交部去促成"},{"start":10958.72,"end":10960.72,"text":"台飛雙邊快捷"},{"start":10960.72,"end":10962.72,"text":"郵務包裹的協定"},{"start":10962.72,"end":10964.72,"text":"讓未來台飛之間中華郵政"},{"start":10964.72,"end":10966.72,"text":"可以經營用無人貨機"},{"start":10966.72,"end":10968.72,"text":"純粹的郵務包裹往返"},{"start":10968.72,"end":10970.72,"text":"台飛之間讓兩邊的經營貿易"},{"start":10970.72,"end":10972.72,"text":"可以更緊密的發展"},{"start":10972.72,"end":10974.72,"text":"部長後面這一題因為您擔任過交通部長"},{"start":10974.72,"end":10976.72,"text":"所以我特別來請教您是不是可以請你們的"},{"start":10976.72,"end":10978.72,"text":"這個小組去研究一下"},{"start":10978.72,"end":10980.72,"text":"因為有無人機小組嘛"},{"start":10980.72,"end":10982.72,"text":"因為涉及到其他部位我們會研究也會去跟他們"},{"start":10982.72,"end":10984.72,"text":"資商"},{"start":10984.72,"end":10986.72,"text":"我跟委員講台飛我們現在推動台飛經濟走廊"},{"start":10986.72,"end":10988.72,"text":"是就是包括人流物流金流"},{"start":10988.72,"end":10990.72,"text":"是的交通流資訊流"},{"start":10990.72,"end":10992.72,"text":"所以這個物流"},{"start":10992.72,"end":10994.72,"text":"跟未來是很重要"},{"start":10994.72,"end":10996.72,"text":"要打造台飛經濟走廊相"},{"start":10996.72,"end":10998.72,"text":"物流可以做海運"},{"start":10998.72,"end":11000.72,"text":"也可以透過現有的航空公司的航運"},{"start":11000.72,"end":11002.72,"text":"空運但是也可以透過"},{"start":11002.72,"end":11004.72,"text":"一個低空的經濟的"},{"start":11004.72,"end":11006.72,"text":"一個郵包的快捷的一個通道"},{"start":11006.72,"end":11008.72,"text":"廊道很快的讓台灣"},{"start":11008.72,"end":11010.72,"text":"跟菲律賓之間有這樣"},{"start":11010.72,"end":11012.72,"text":"流物包裹的合作"},{"start":11012.72,"end":11014.72,"text":"部長可以開始去做一個"},{"start":11014.72,"end":11016.72,"text":"做手策劃吧"},{"start":11016.72,"end":11018.72,"text":"我們來研究跟相關的部會"},{"start":11018.72,"end":11020.72,"text":"我們也會質詢他們的意見"},{"start":11020.72,"end":11022.72,"text":"謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11022.48,"end":11024.48,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11024.48,"end":11026.48,"text":"接下來請許中信委員上台"},{"start":11026.48,"end":11028.48,"text":"諮詢"},{"start":11037.75,"end":11039.75,"text":"女士們和先生們"},{"start":11039.75,"end":11041.75,"text":"我會想邀請林佳龍先生"},{"start":11042.74,"end":11044.74,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":11048.63,"end":11050.63,"text":"好久不見"},{"start":11050.62,"end":11052.62,"text":"很高興認識你"},{"start":11052.73,"end":11054.73,"text":"我肯服"},{"start":11054.32,"end":11057.32,"text":"台灣作為外交部長"},{"start":11057.32,"end":11059.32,"text":"是一個很大的工作"},{"start":11060.13,"end":11062.13,"text":"你才是唯一的"},{"start":11062.18,"end":11064.18,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11069.31,"end":11071.31,"text":"我會支持你"},{"start":11071.99,"end":11073.99,"text":"100%"},{"start":11073.78,"end":11075.78,"text":"因為我的尊敬"},{"start":11075.77,"end":11077.77,"text":"在外交部長的角度"},{"start":11077.98,"end":11078.98,"text":"台灣是一"},{"start":11080.07,"end":11082.07,"text":"我會支持你"},{"start":11082.07,"end":11084.07,"text":"100%"},{"start":11084.93,"end":11086.93,"text":"今天我有兩個小問題給你"},{"start":11089.3,"end":11091.3,"text":"第一個問題是"},{"start":11091.58,"end":11093.58,"text":"你已經知道了"},{"start":11094.62,"end":11096.62,"text":"1979年"},{"start":11096.62,"end":11098.62,"text":"那是一個非常大的"},{"start":11098.62,"end":11100.62,"text":"越南戰爭"},{"start":11100.86,"end":11102.86,"text":"那是三個最大的原因為那場戰爭"},{"start":11105.11,"end":11107.11,"text":"第一"},{"start":11106.45,"end":11108.45,"text":"1969年到1978年"},{"start":11108.45,"end":11110.45,"text":"越南與蘇聯是親密的夥伴"},{"start":11113.38,"end":11115.38,"text":"你已經知道了"},{"start":11115.38,"end":11117.38,"text":"第二是1978年"},{"start":11117.38,"end":11119.38,"text":"越南與蘇聯的"},{"start":11119.38,"end":11121.38,"text":"中國夥伴在櫻波地亞"},{"start":11122.48,"end":11124.48,"text":"是唯一的夥伴"},{"start":11125.94,"end":11127.94,"text":"在"},{"start":11127.49,"end":11129.49,"text":"櫻波中國夥伴"},{"start":11130.9,"end":11132.9,"text":"在"},{"start":11132.97,"end":11134.97,"text":"在"},{"start":11135.83,"end":11137.83,"text":"在"},{"start":11137.87,"end":11139.87,"text":"在"},{"start":11140.13,"end":11142.13,"text":"我正在聆聽"},{"start":11142.13,"end":11144.13,"text":"第三個原因是"},{"start":11144.13,"end":11146.13,"text":"什麼"},{"start":11146.76,"end":11148.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11148.43,"end":11150.43,"text":"OK"},{"start":11150.83,"end":11152.83,"text":"The sovereignty dispute"},{"start":11153.31,"end":11155.31,"text":"over"},{"start":11155.71,"end":11157.71,"text":"I keep it"},{"start":11157.6,"end":11159.6,"text":"C3"},{"start":11159.33,"end":11161.33,"text":"And the sprightly islands"},{"start":11161.33,"end":11163.33,"text":"南沙"},{"start":11163.79,"end":11165.79,"text":"We are none"},{"start":11165.79,"end":11167.79,"text":"Grand sovereignty over this two archipelagos"},{"start":11169.68,"end":11171.68,"text":"China say that belongs to China"},{"start":11172.99,"end":11174.99,"text":"So that is the third cause"},{"start":11177.78,"end":11179.78,"text":"So my second question for you"},{"start":11182.6,"end":11184.6,"text":"2016"},{"start":11185.51,"end":11187.51,"text":"2025"},{"start":11187.51,"end":11189.51,"text":"According to this map"},{"start":11190.06,"end":11192.06,"text":"The rest one"},{"start":11192.06,"end":11194.06,"text":"The former one"},{"start":11192.97,"end":11194.97,"text":"From this map you can see"},{"start":11196.19,"end":11198.19,"text":"Also from 2016"},{"start":11199.18,"end":11201.18,"text":"To 2025"},{"start":11202.23,"end":11204.23,"text":"There was"},{"start":11204.02,"end":11206.02,"text":"A widespread deployment"},{"start":11206.02,"end":11208.02,"text":"Undrawn by China"},{"start":11208.02,"end":11210.02,"text":"In South China Sea"},{"start":11210.67,"end":11212.67,"text":"2016"},{"start":11213.67,"end":11215.67,"text":"Is also the year"},{"start":11216.25,"end":11220.25,"text":"South China Sea Arbitration Award was made"},{"start":11220.34,"end":11222.34,"text":"The same year 2016"},{"start":11223.78,"end":11225.78,"text":"Potash in mint"},{"start":11227.74,"end":11229.74,"text":"我還是用中文回答"},{"start":11229.74,"end":11231.74,"text":"因為立法院要記錄"},{"start":11231.74,"end":11233.74,"text":"你甚至可以回答我"},{"start":11233.74,"end":11235.74,"text":"在台灣語"},{"start":11235.74,"end":11237.74,"text":"事情也會通了"},{"start":11238.16,"end":11240.16,"text":"當然委員提到這個"},{"start":11240.16,"end":11242.16,"text":"其實南海因為中國的"},{"start":11242.16,"end":11244.16,"text":"主權的這種宣示"},{"start":11244.16,"end":11246.16,"text":"其實引起很多"},{"start":11246.16,"end":11248.16,"text":"跟國家的衝突"},{"start":11248.16,"end":11250.16,"text":"因為深鎖國很多"},{"start":11250.16,"end":11252.16,"text":"所以包括跟越南之間"},{"start":11252.16,"end":11254.16,"text":"那至於說無人機"},{"start":11254.16,"end":11256.16,"text":"因為中國現在其實對我們自己"},{"start":11256.16,"end":11258.16,"text":"包括我們在東沙島太平島"},{"start":11258.16,"end":11260.16,"text":"其實常常都會侵入我們的"},{"start":11260.16,"end":11262.16,"text":"這些領空"},{"start":11262.16,"end":11264.16,"text":"或者是我們的領平海"},{"start":11264.16,"end":11266.16,"text":"所以"},{"start":11266.16,"end":11268.16,"text":"2016"},{"start":11268.06,"end":11270.06,"text":"That is the year that"},{"start":11270.06,"end":11272.06,"text":"the Arbitration Award was made"},{"start":11271.89,"end":11273.89,"text":"The same year"},{"start":11273.89,"end":11275.89,"text":"Is it a coincidence by chance?"},{"start":11276.01,"end":11278.01,"text":"No coincidence by chance"},{"start":11278.94,"end":11280.94,"text":"I'm in China"},{"start":11281.53,"end":11283.53,"text":"Do not care about"},{"start":11283.5,"end":11285.5,"text":"Do not care about"},{"start":11285.24,"end":11287.24,"text":"This Arbitration Award"},{"start":11287.5,"end":11289.5,"text":"And decided to use military force"},{"start":11290.6,"end":11292.6,"text":"Right?"},{"start":11293.08,"end":11295.08,"text":"So is it a chance for Taiwan?"},{"start":11296.11,"end":11298.11,"text":"To strengthen our relations"},{"start":11298.11,"end":11300.11,"text":"with Vietnam"},{"start":11300.68,"end":11302.68,"text":"That is a good chance, right?"},{"start":11302.72,"end":11304.72,"text":"Yes"},{"start":11305.15,"end":11307.15,"text":"What is the progress now?"},{"start":11307.04,"end":11309.04,"text":"Our relations with Vietnam"},{"start":11310.04,"end":11312.04,"text":"Vietnamese is a host country"},{"start":11312.04,"end":11314.04,"text":"So it is really"},{"start":11314.04,"end":11316.04,"text":" Of course, it is close to China"},{"start":11316.04,"end":11318.04,"text":" Also have a lot of this"},{"start":11318.04,"end":11320.04,"text":" But I think in history"},{"start":11320.04,"end":11322.04,"text":" They are all fighting"},{"start":11322.04,"end":11324.04,"text":" And Vietnam is still winning"},{"start":11324.04,"end":11326.04,"text":" So now is the relationship between the United States and Vietnam"},{"start":11326.04,"end":11328.04,"text":" Because I think everyone knows"},{"start":11328.04,"end":11330.04,"text":" Especially the re-establishment of the supply chain"},{"start":11330.04,"end":11332.04,"text":" That is Vietnam"},{"start":11332.04,"end":11334.04,"text":" In the US-China"},{"start":11334.04,"end":11336.04,"text":" How is his host country developing?"},{"start":11336.04,"end":11338.04,"text":" We are closely concerned"},{"start":11338.04,"end":11340.04,"text":" But we are in Vietnam"},{"start":11340.04,"end":11342.04,"text":" Because of the close relationship"},{"start":11342.04,"end":11344.04,"text":" Including investment, including immigration"},{"start":11344.04,"end":11346.04,"text":" To Taiwan"},{"start":11346.04,"end":11348.04,"text":" New residents or migrant workers"},{"start":11348.04,"end":11350.04,"text":" Including tourism"},{"start":11350.04,"end":11352.04,"text":" So this is quite comprehensive"},{"start":11352.04,"end":11354.04,"text":" So I am very concerned"},{"start":11354.04,"end":11356.04,"text":" About the relationship between Taiwan and Vietnam"},{"start":11356.04,"end":11358.04,"text":" Because this is"},{"start":11358.04,"end":11360.04,"text":" To some extent, he is impossible with China"},{"start":11360.04,"end":11362.04,"text":" Like some countries"},{"start":11362.04,"end":11364.04,"text":" Completely obey him"},{"start":11364.04,"end":11366.04,"text":" He has his own diplomatic autonomy"},{"start":11368.04,"end":11370.04,"text":" So he is a big country in the world"},{"start":11370,"end":11372,"text":" That have defeated United States"},{"start":11372,"end":11374,"text":" And China is Vietnam"},{"start":11374.71,"end":11376.71,"text":" So I respect this country so much"},{"start":11376.71,"end":11378.71,"text":" We need to use this opportunity"},{"start":11380.56,"end":11382.56,"text":" To strengthen our relations with Vietnam"},{"start":11383.8,"end":11385.8,"text":" That is one of our security"},{"start":11386.61,"end":11388.61,"text":" Yes, ok"},{"start":11388.61,"end":11390.61,"text":" Thank you very much"},{"start":11389.9,"end":11391.9,"text":" Thank you"},{"start":11394.74,"end":11396.74,"text":" Ok, thank you"},{"start":11396.74,"end":11398.74,"text":" Thank you, committee"},{"start":11398.74,"end":11400.74,"text":" Ok, next"},{"start":11400.74,"end":11402.74,"text":" Please, committee member Zheng Zheng"},{"start":11415.12,"end":11417.12,"text":" Thank you, committee member Zheng Zheng"},{"start":11426.6,"end":11428.6,"text":"部長好,有些主席今天"},{"start":11428.6,"end":11430.6,"text":"特別安排了針對南海主權"},{"start":11430.6,"end":11432.6,"text":"相關議題的一個專題報告"},{"start":11432.6,"end":11434.6,"text":"那我想說"},{"start":11434.6,"end":11436.6,"text":"其實我們在2024年的時候"},{"start":11436.6,"end":11438.6,"text":"我記得外交委員會"},{"start":11438.6,"end":11440.6,"text":"外交國防委員會在馬龍軍召委的安排之下的時候"},{"start":11440.6,"end":11442.6,"text":"我們也到了南沙太平島去"},{"start":11442.6,"end":11444.6,"text":"5月18號"},{"start":11444.6,"end":11446.6,"text":"我印象中是這樣子"},{"start":11446.6,"end":11448.6,"text":"然後今年的時候"},{"start":11448.6,"end":11450.6,"text":"7月9號的時候"},{"start":11450.6,"end":11452.6,"text":"內政委員會"},{"start":11452.6,"end":11454.6,"text":"也安排了到東沙群島"},{"start":11454.6,"end":11456.6,"text":"去做了一個考察"},{"start":11456.6,"end":11458.6,"text":"那我想說包括我們"},{"start":11458.6,"end":11460.6,"text":"海洋委員會的"},{"start":11460.6,"end":11462.6,"text":"副主委還有海巡署署長"},{"start":11462.6,"end":11464.6,"text":"張忠龍他今天也在現場"},{"start":11464.6,"end":11466.6,"text":"他也陪同整個"},{"start":11466.6,"end":11468.6,"text":"內政委員會去東沙"},{"start":11468.6,"end":11470.6,"text":"做了一個考察"},{"start":11470.6,"end":11472.6,"text":"我一開始講的部分最主要是要強調說"},{"start":11472.6,"end":11474.6,"text":"我們在南海這邊的相關的一些"},{"start":11474.6,"end":11476.6,"text":"主權其實毫無疑問的"},{"start":11476.6,"end":11478.6,"text":"所以我們也希望外交部這邊"},{"start":11478.6,"end":11480.6,"text":"能夠更大力的去做一些宣示"},{"start":11480.6,"end":11482.6,"text":"不過我今天最主要的"},{"start":11482.6,"end":11484.6,"text":"問題要請教一下部長是"},{"start":11484.6,"end":11486.6,"text":"因為在7月18號的時候"},{"start":11486.6,"end":11488.6,"text":"就是巴布亞紐幾內亞"},{"start":11488.6,"end":11490.6,"text":"他吳玉景的片面"},{"start":11490.6,"end":11492.6,"text":"關閉台灣的"},{"start":11492.6,"end":11494.6,"text":"駐八紐的一個代表處"},{"start":11494.6,"end":11496.6,"text":"你有特別提到說"},{"start":11496.6,"end":11498.6,"text":"除了要表達抗議之外"},{"start":11498.6,"end":11500.6,"text":"你也特別提到說要檢視"},{"start":11500.6,"end":11502.6,"text":"對八紐的天然氣採購"},{"start":11502.6,"end":11504.6,"text":"採取必要措施"},{"start":11504.6,"end":11506.6,"text":"那你也很具體的提到說"},{"start":11506.6,"end":11508.6,"text":"台灣採購八紐的三分機"},{"start":11508.6,"end":11510.6,"text":"的天然氣一年對不對"},{"start":11510.6,"end":11512.6,"text":"你剛有特別提到這個部分"},{"start":11512.6,"end":11514.6,"text":"那大概是120萬噸"},{"start":11514.6,"end":11516.6,"text":"那是長約還有短約"},{"start":11516.6,"end":11518.6,"text":"另外加起來數字"},{"start":11518.6,"end":11520.6,"text":"比這個大很多"},{"start":11522.23,"end":11524.23,"text":"2350"},{"start":11524.39,"end":11526.39,"text":"2350萬噸"},{"start":11527.87,"end":11529.87,"text":"2350萬噸嗎"},{"start":11529.87,"end":11531.87,"text":"對"},{"start":11531.87,"end":11533.87,"text":"來這個地方"},{"start":11533.87,"end":11535.87,"text":"部長這個數字是誰給你的"},{"start":11535.87,"end":11537.87,"text":"這數字是誰給你的"},{"start":11537.87,"end":11539.87,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":11539.87,"end":11541.87,"text":"經濟部給你的數字是不是"},{"start":11541.87,"end":11543.87,"text":"你有正式跟經濟部"},{"start":11543.87,"end":11545.87,"text":"討論過這個事情嗎"},{"start":11545.87,"end":11547.87,"text":"有資商然後有共同來應處"},{"start":11547.87,"end":11549.87,"text":"因為我今天上午"},{"start":11549.87,"end":11551.87,"text":"跟部長說"},{"start":11551.87,"end":11553.87,"text":"他們沒有正式跟我們"},{"start":11553.87,"end":11555.87,"text":"溝通過這些事情"},{"start":11555.87,"end":11557.87,"text":"所以討論"},{"start":11557.87,"end":11559.87,"text":"那我這邊要特別提到說2300萬噸"},{"start":11559.87,"end":11561.87,"text":"我覺得這個數字肯定是"},{"start":11561.87,"end":11563.87,"text":"有錯啦"},{"start":11563.87,"end":11565.87,"text":"長約120萬噸"},{"start":11565.87,"end":11567.87,"text":"然後短約加上"},{"start":11567.87,"end":11569.87,"text":"現貨有2300萬噸"},{"start":11571.44,"end":11573.44,"text":"我們部長你這為我們"},{"start":11573.44,"end":11575.44,"text":"應免"},{"start":11574.53,"end":11576.53,"text":"天然氣進口的頓數是多少"},{"start":11576.53,"end":11578.53,"text":"每個月都要有頓你知道嗎"},{"start":11578.22,"end":11580.22,"text":"台灣整體"},{"start":11580.22,"end":11582.22,"text":"詳細的數字當然我沒有辦法馬上講"},{"start":11582.22,"end":11584.22,"text":"好喔因為我只跟你講說"},{"start":11584.22,"end":11586.22,"text":"230萬噸肯定是缺乏的數字"},{"start":11586.22,"end":11588.22,"text":"如果說你說是"},{"start":11588.22,"end":11590.22,"text":"230"},{"start":11591.4,"end":11593.4,"text":"你剛才講說2300萬噸"},{"start":11593.4,"end":11595.4,"text":"這肯定是錯誤的數字"},{"start":11595.4,"end":11597.4,"text":"230萬噸可能差不多"},{"start":11597.4,"end":11599.4,"text":"長約短約跟現貨"},{"start":11599.4,"end":11601.4,"text":"因為我們看到"},{"start":11601.4,"end":11603.4,"text":"那個"},{"start":11603.4,"end":11605.4,"text":"巴米亞幾內亞他們的官方的統計"},{"start":11605.4,"end":11607.4,"text":"數字一年出口"},{"start":11607.4,"end":11609.4,"text":"的天然氣大概是800"},{"start":11609.4,"end":11611.4,"text":"萬噸"},{"start":11610.74,"end":11612.74,"text":"800萬噸"},{"start":11612.74,"end":11614.74,"text":"2300萬噸肯定數字有點"},{"start":11614.74,"end":11616.74,"text":"超錯"},{"start":11616.74,"end":11618.74,"text":"如果說經濟部給你的數字來講"},{"start":11618.74,"end":11620.74,"text":"那我覺得這肯定是要打屁"},{"start":11620.74,"end":11622.74,"text":"我們查一下因為剛剛委員講的沒有錯"},{"start":11622.74,"end":11624.74,"text":"因為那個數字是用"},{"start":11624.74,"end":11626.74,"text":"英文跟中文台灣的單位"},{"start":11626.74,"end":11628.74,"text":"但是我們的長約是100萬噸"},{"start":11628.74,"end":11630.74,"text":"那其實很大部分"},{"start":11630.74,"end":11632.74,"text":"我們也在現貨市場"},{"start":11632.74,"end":11634.74,"text":"這些當然我們都可以做調節"},{"start":11634.74,"end":11636.74,"text":"所以說你現在準備要"},{"start":11636.74,"end":11638.74,"text":"把天然氣的採購當作"},{"start":11638.74,"end":11640.74,"text":"我們外交反制的一個工具"},{"start":11640.74,"end":11642.74,"text":"不是反制是因為他們"},{"start":11642.74,"end":11644.74,"text":"外交部長講我們沒有經貿往來"},{"start":11644.74,"end":11646.74,"text":"所以我們必須要說明"},{"start":11646.74,"end":11648.74,"text":"有至於說因為有一些"},{"start":11648.74,"end":11650.74,"text":"是契約有事情要第三方"},{"start":11650.74,"end":11652.74,"text":"但有一些是我們單方可以決定"},{"start":11652.74,"end":11654.74,"text":"只是說我說年採購量"},{"start":11654.74,"end":11656.74,"text":"是相當大佔他國家"},{"start":11656.74,"end":11658.74,"text":"大概整個出口是相當"},{"start":11658.74,"end":11660.74,"text":"的比例這個也是我們"},{"start":11660.74,"end":11662.74,"text":"代表處在那邊長期跟他們"},{"start":11662.74,"end":11664.74,"text":"交涉"},{"start":11664.74,"end":11666.74,"text":"如果查約的話大概只佔了15%"},{"start":11666.74,"end":11668.74,"text":"那我在想說不管怎麼樣"},{"start":11668.74,"end":11670.74,"text":"就表示我們跟巴布亞吉內亞其實是有"},{"start":11670.74,"end":11672.74,"text":"正常的一個經貿的往來"},{"start":11672.74,"end":11674.74,"text":"不過因為我覺得現在"},{"start":11674.74,"end":11676.74,"text":"因為坦白說從之前"},{"start":11676.74,"end":11678.74,"text":"烏魯戰爭之前"},{"start":11678.74,"end":11680.74,"text":"還有最近中東的事情的時候"},{"start":11680.74,"end":11682.74,"text":"台灣現在的天然氣進口的時候"},{"start":11682.74,"end":11684.74,"text":"雖然目前還是"},{"start":11684.74,"end":11686.74,"text":"一個穩定持平可是因為我們發現"},{"start":11686.74,"end":11688.74,"text":"從俄羅斯進口的狀態已經"},{"start":11688.74,"end":11690.74,"text":"歸零了卡達也幾乎"},{"start":11690.74,"end":11692.74,"text":"歸零那我們看到"},{"start":11692.74,"end":11694.74,"text":"五月份的時候我們從巴布亞"},{"start":11694.74,"end":11696.74,"text":"吉內亞的一個天然氣的進口量"},{"start":11696.74,"end":11698.74,"text":"到達23.37萬噸一個月"},{"start":11698.74,"end":11700.74,"text":"大概在台灣進口的11.91%"},{"start":11700.74,"end":11704.74,"text":"這個部分的時候對台灣來講其實是非常非常關鍵的"},{"start":11704.74,"end":11706.74,"text":"因為現在台灣天然氣的一個發電量"},{"start":11706.74,"end":11708.74,"text":"佔台灣總體發電量的超過五成"},{"start":11708.74,"end":11710.74,"text":"所以11.91%幾乎佔台灣整個天然氣進口單月的6%以上"},{"start":11710.74,"end":11712.74,"text":"所以說我們在這個部分"},{"start":11712.74,"end":11714.74,"text":"如果說"},{"start":11714.74,"end":11716.74,"text":"如果說我們在這個部分"},{"start":11716.74,"end":11718.74,"text":"如果說我們在這個部分"},{"start":11718.74,"end":11720.74,"text":"如果說我們在這個部分"},{"start":11720.74,"end":11722.74,"text":"如果說我們在這個部分"},{"start":11722.74,"end":11724.74,"text":"我們在這個部分"},{"start":11724.74,"end":11726.74,"text":"如果說部長只是要表示說"},{"start":11726.74,"end":11728.74,"text":"我們跟巴布亞吉內亞有經貿往來"},{"start":11728.74,"end":11730.74,"text":"那這沒有問題全力支持"},{"start":11730.74,"end":11732.74,"text":"那如果說要把跟巴布亞"},{"start":11732.74,"end":11734.74,"text":"吉內亞採購天然氣這件事情"},{"start":11734.74,"end":11736.74,"text":"不管是長約短約"},{"start":11736.74,"end":11738.74,"text":"還是現貨當做"},{"start":11738.74,"end":11740.74,"text":"我們的一個外交反制工具的時候"},{"start":11740.74,"end":11742.74,"text":"我就要考量一下目前台灣的"},{"start":11742.74,"end":11744.74,"text":"能源狀態是不是"},{"start":11744.74,"end":11746.74,"text":"能夠支持得上這樣的一件事情"},{"start":11746.74,"end":11748.74,"text":"那因為我早上我有問了一個"},{"start":11748.74,"end":11750.74,"text":"公部長公部長說我們跟外交部這邊"},{"start":11750.74,"end":11752.74,"text":"只有私底下的一個討論"},{"start":11752.74,"end":11754.74,"text":"並沒有一個正式的一個會議"},{"start":11754.74,"end":11756.74,"text":"那我們希望針對這個部分的時候"},{"start":11756.74,"end":11758.74,"text":"因為牽涉到跨部會的一個"},{"start":11758.74,"end":11760.74,"text":"問題去"},{"start":11761.06,"end":11763.06,"text":"發展台灣的一個對外影響力的時候"},{"start":11763.06,"end":11765.06,"text":"我們希望在這個部分"},{"start":11765.06,"end":11767.06,"text":"能夠更為謹慎好不好"},{"start":11767.06,"end":11769.06,"text":"好我們跟經濟部會密切"},{"start":11769.06,"end":11771.06,"text":"聯繫協調"},{"start":11771.06,"end":11773.06,"text":"我們一定確保自己能源安全的前提"},{"start":11773.06,"end":11775.06,"text":"下那至於說有一些"},{"start":11775.06,"end":11777.06,"text":"在現貨市場因為有其他的選擇"},{"start":11777.06,"end":11779.06,"text":"那當然比較彈性"},{"start":11779.06,"end":11781.06,"text":"簽約的部分涉及第三方"},{"start":11781.06,"end":11783.06,"text":"我們也都是非常的慎重"},{"start":11783.06,"end":11785.06,"text":"在做這個"},{"start":11785.06,"end":11787.06,"text":"評估"},{"start":11787.06,"end":11789.06,"text":"OK謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":11790.42,"end":11792.42,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11793.53,"end":11797.53,"text":"我們接下來請林茜琪委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11807.72,"end":11809.72,"text":"好我們主席馬教委還有胡院同仁大家好"},{"start":11809.72,"end":11811.72,"text":"我請我們外交部長林部長"},{"start":11811.72,"end":11813.72,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":11821.66,"end":11823.66,"text":"委員好"},{"start":11851.66,"end":11853.66,"text":"國際貿易協議"},{"start":11853.66,"end":11855.66,"text":"國際貿易協議"},{"start":11855.66,"end":11857.66,"text":"國際貿易協議"},{"start":11857.66,"end":11859.66,"text":"國際貿易協議"},{"start":11859.66,"end":11861.66,"text":"國際貿易協議"},{"start":11861.66,"end":11863.66,"text":"國際貿易協議"},{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12042.57,"text":"合作支持航行自由"},{"start":12042.57,"end":12044.57,"text":"等等但是不代表"},{"start":12044.57,"end":12046.57,"text":"我們要成為應聲蟲啊"},{"start":12046.57,"end":12048.57,"text":"外交部的官方資料目前還沒有明確的表示"},{"start":12048.57,"end":12050.57,"text":"南海諸島屬於中華民國的領土"},{"start":12050.57,"end":12052.57,"text":"那麼政府不會放棄主權"},{"start":12052.57,"end":12054.57,"text":"以及合法海域的權利"},{"start":12056.09,"end":12058.09,"text":"所以本期要求外交部"},{"start":12058.09,"end":12060.09,"text":"建立一套完整的國際宣傳"},{"start":12060.09,"end":12062.09,"text":"跟法律反制的方案"},{"start":12062.09,"end":12064.09,"text":"至少要包括持續重申"},{"start":12064.09,"end":12066.09,"text":"仲裁對我國不懼憂愁力"},{"start":12066.09,"end":12068.09,"text":"明確的捍衛太平島"},{"start":12068.09,"end":12070.09,"text":"島嶼的地位"},{"start":12070.09,"end":12072.09,"text":"抗議任何矮化中華民國的稱謂"},{"start":12072.09,"end":12074.09,"text":"並透過國際法的研究"},{"start":12074.09,"end":12076.09,"text":"海洋的科學研究"},{"start":12076.09,"end":12078.09,"text":"人道救援以及實質的治理"},{"start":12078.09,"end":12080.09,"text":"累積我國在南海法律"},{"start":12080.09,"end":12082.09,"text":"市政與國際能見度"},{"start":12083.26,"end":12085.26,"text":"在這個"},{"start":12085.26,"end":12087.26,"text":"第一個會期"},{"start":12087.26,"end":12089.26,"text":"我想我們的召委"},{"start":12089.26,"end":12091.26,"text":"也帶了許多委員"},{"start":12091.26,"end":12093.26,"text":"登上太平島"},{"start":12093.26,"end":12095.26,"text":"那就已經宣示本黨在太平島的"},{"start":12095.26,"end":12097.26,"text":"一個很重要的概念"},{"start":12097.26,"end":12099.26,"text":"那麼本席在這邊"},{"start":12099.26,"end":12101.26,"text":"最後要問您"},{"start":12101.26,"end":12103.26,"text":"您是不是可以在委員會公開的重申"},{"start":12103.26,"end":12105.26,"text":"南海仲裁"},{"start":12105.26,"end":12107.26,"text":"對中華民國不懼法律"},{"start":12107.26,"end":12109.26,"text":"拘束力"},{"start":12109.26,"end":12111.26,"text":"太平島是島"},{"start":12111.26,"end":12113.26,"text":"我國不接受任何的演講"},{"start":12113.26,"end":12115.26,"text":"任何貶抑中華民國主權地位的稱謂"},{"start":12115.26,"end":12117.26,"text":"我國都不接受"},{"start":12117.93,"end":12119.93,"text":"我完全同意委員所講的立場"},{"start":12119.93,"end":12121.93,"text":"那因為當時是十年前"},{"start":12121.93,"end":12123.93,"text":"因為這個所謂的"},{"start":12123.93,"end":12125.93,"text":"南海的這個仲裁"},{"start":12125.93,"end":12127.93,"text":"是在於非中之間"},{"start":12127.93,"end":12129.93,"text":"那我們當然也是"},{"start":12129.93,"end":12131.93,"text":"厲害關係人所以我們就有表達了"},{"start":12131.93,"end":12133.93,"text":"那四點原則"},{"start":12133.93,"end":12135.93,"text":"依然有效在我們的官網上中英文"},{"start":12135.93,"end":12137.93,"text":"都有好那現在是十年"},{"start":12137.93,"end":12139.93,"text":"我們一直到會有一些"},{"start":12139.93,"end":12141.93,"text":"各界關切這個問題"},{"start":12141.93,"end":12143.93,"text":"那剛剛委員講了因為我們"},{"start":12143.93,"end":12145.93,"text":"不是就是參與"},{"start":12145.93,"end":12147.93,"text":"我們也不接受"},{"start":12147.93,"end":12149.93,"text":"對我們不利的仲裁結果"},{"start":12149.93,"end":12151.93,"text":"再來就是說太平島是島"},{"start":12151.93,"end":12153.93,"text":"這是事實"},{"start":12153.93,"end":12155.93,"text":"在我們國際的宣傳上"},{"start":12155.93,"end":12157.93,"text":"在國際的定位上"},{"start":12157.93,"end":12159.93,"text":"是不是應該更強化這個宣傳"},{"start":12159.93,"end":12161.93,"text":"這個是一方面"},{"start":12161.93,"end":12163.93,"text":"包括說這個"},{"start":12163.93,"end":12165.93,"text":"但是另外一方面"},{"start":12165.93,"end":12167.93,"text":"我們也有一些主張是希望說"},{"start":12167.93,"end":12169.93,"text":"和平解決爭議"},{"start":12169.93,"end":12171.93,"text":"然後這些爭議"},{"start":12171.93,"end":12173.93,"text":"來共同開發"},{"start":12173.93,"end":12175.93,"text":"從我們自己台灣做起"},{"start":12175.93,"end":12177.93,"text":"剛剛您講到的"},{"start":12177.93,"end":12179.93,"text":"不管是對於這一些海洋的"},{"start":12179.93,"end":12181.93,"text":"這個科技"},{"start":12181.93,"end":12183.93,"text":"科學的調研"},{"start":12183.93,"end":12185.93,"text":"或者是說人道的援助"},{"start":12185.93,"end":12187.93,"text":"或者是一些環境氣候"},{"start":12187.93,"end":12189.93,"text":"相關我們怎麼樣能夠"},{"start":12189.93,"end":12191.93,"text":"用正面的方式來表達台灣的立場"},{"start":12191.93,"end":12193.93,"text":"跟人家一起來推動"},{"start":12193.93,"end":12195.93,"text":"這不只是被動或消極"},{"start":12195.93,"end":12197.93,"text":"你可以更積極更主動"},{"start":12197.93,"end":12199.93,"text":"來唱"},{"start":12199.93,"end":12201.93,"text":"共同開發然後共同往前走"},{"start":12201.93,"end":12203.93,"text":"但是重點是"},{"start":12203.93,"end":12205.93,"text":"那我們如何透過本席剛才"},{"start":12205.93,"end":12207.93,"text":"所講的方式再次強化"},{"start":12207.93,"end":12209.93,"text":"在南海仲裁十年"},{"start":12209.93,"end":12211.93,"text":"其實對我們很不公平的一個情況下"},{"start":12211.93,"end":12213.93,"text":"我們是不是應該在這一次"},{"start":12213.93,"end":12215.93,"text":"再更強的來"},{"start":12215.93,"end":12217.93,"text":"強化跟宣示我國主權"},{"start":12217.93,"end":12219.93,"text":"的一個地位還有國際的宣傳"},{"start":12219.93,"end":12221.93,"text":"還有國際的一個法律定位"},{"start":12221.93,"end":12223.93,"text":"我想我們可能要透過一些"},{"start":12223.93,"end":12225.93,"text":"實質的行動來"},{"start":12225.93,"end":12227.93,"text":"將我們的主權"},{"start":12227.93,"end":12229.93,"text":"還有我們的經濟權益"},{"start":12229.93,"end":12231.93,"text":"還有各類我們一直在國際間"},{"start":12231.93,"end":12233.93,"text":"推動的事實讓國際"},{"start":12233.93,"end":12235.93,"text":"社會知道"},{"start":12235.93,"end":12237.93,"text":"那這一點是不是可以請外交部"},{"start":12237.93,"end":12239.93,"text":"你們剛才也已經同意本席"},{"start":12239.93,"end":12241.93,"text":"剛才所講的那方式上"},{"start":12241.93,"end":12243.93,"text":"你也認同那是不是外交部"},{"start":12243.93,"end":12245.93,"text":"應該趕快來做"},{"start":12245.93,"end":12247.93,"text":"我相信這幾年我想外交部在這個"},{"start":12247.93,"end":12249.93,"text":"整個國際的這個地位上"},{"start":12249.93,"end":12251.93,"text":"對於中華民國主權這個部分"},{"start":12251.93,"end":12253.93,"text":"其實有一些很長足的這個投入"},{"start":12253.93,"end":12255.93,"text":"那是不是在這件"},{"start":12255.93,"end":12257.93,"text":"其實跟我們利害關係非常直接"},{"start":12257.93,"end":12259.93,"text":"這樣一個世界上我們其實"},{"start":12259.93,"end":12261.93,"text":"應該更強力的來對國際"},{"start":12261.93,"end":12263.93,"text":"社會論述不管在專業上"},{"start":12263.93,"end":12265.93,"text":"還有這個一般的宣傳上"},{"start":12265.93,"end":12267.93,"text":"我們會來努力"},{"start":12267.93,"end":12269.93,"text":"更積極的來推動"},{"start":12269.93,"end":12271.93,"text":"委員剛剛講的都很具體啦"},{"start":12271.93,"end":12273.93,"text":"我覺得也都是我們國家的政策"},{"start":12273.93,"end":12275.93,"text":"有一些因為有時候在不同的"},{"start":12275.93,"end":12277.93,"text":"這個"},{"start":12277.93,"end":12279.93,"text":"實際講重點不太一樣"},{"start":12279.93,"end":12281.93,"text":"但是我們基本上立場都沒有改變"},{"start":12281.93,"end":12283.93,"text":"但是怎麼樣能夠"},{"start":12283.93,"end":12285.93,"text":"更主動來積極"},{"start":12285.93,"end":12287.93,"text":"來推動包括我們跟菲律賓其實針對"},{"start":12287.93,"end":12289.93,"text":"我們雖然不是就是說"},{"start":12289.93,"end":12291.93,"text":"東協跟那個所謂的"},{"start":12291.93,"end":12293.93,"text":"這個南海行為準則"},{"start":12293.93,"end":12295.93,"text":"的參與者"},{"start":12295.93,"end":12297.93,"text":"但是我們也是利害關係人"},{"start":12298.94,"end":12300.94,"text":"那既然我們在這中間"},{"start":12300.94,"end":12302.94,"text":"在過去有被不平等的對待"},{"start":12302.94,"end":12304.94,"text":"那我們的立場如果從過去到現在是一致的話"},{"start":12304.94,"end":12306.94,"text":"我相信我們應該再重申"},{"start":12306.94,"end":12308.94,"text":"我們立場裡面很具體的事項"},{"start":12308.94,"end":12310.94,"text":"好不好"},{"start":12310.94,"end":12312.94,"text":"我剛才也對委員的質詢"},{"start":12312.94,"end":12314.94,"text":"我也把它更講得更清楚"},{"start":12314.94,"end":12316.94,"text":"那後續委員指示著要再推動"},{"start":12316.94,"end":12318.94,"text":"我們也會全力來推動"},{"start":12318.94,"end":12320.94,"text":"好謝謝部長"},{"start":12321.9,"end":12323.9,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12323.61,"end":12325.61,"text":"林委員"},{"start":12325.63,"end":12327.63,"text":"我們接下來請蘇青全委員"},{"start":12327.63,"end":12329.63,"text":"蘇青全蘇青全委員不在"},{"start":12329.63,"end":12331.63,"text":"請楊瓊英委員上台質詢"},{"start":12340.2,"end":12342.2,"text":"謝謝主席楊群發言"},{"start":12342.2,"end":12344.2,"text":"邀請部長"},{"start":12352.43,"end":12354.43,"text":"部長好"},{"start":12354.43,"end":12356.43,"text":"我們首先來討論南海"},{"start":12356.43,"end":12358.43,"text":"的這個問題"},{"start":12358.43,"end":12360.43,"text":"我相信南海它不是只有一個單純的"},{"start":12360.43,"end":12362.43,"text":"這個海洋爭議"},{"start":12362.43,"end":12364.43,"text":"它更是國際輿論戰"},{"start":12364.43,"end":12366.43,"text":"它也是法律戰"},{"start":12366.43,"end":12368.43,"text":"更是認知作戰"},{"start":12368.43,"end":12370.43,"text":"所以最近我們看到"},{"start":12370.43,"end":12372.43,"text":"這幾年來菲律賓啊"},{"start":12372.43,"end":12374.43,"text":"越南啊甚至其他"},{"start":12374.43,"end":12376.43,"text":"這個南海的申索國"},{"start":12376.43,"end":12378.43,"text":"他們不斷的透過國際的媒體"},{"start":12378.43,"end":12380.43,"text":"或者是國際法"},{"start":12380.43,"end":12382.43,"text":"的一個論壇"},{"start":12382.43,"end":12384.43,"text":"或者是聯合國的一個機制"},{"start":12384.43,"end":12386.43,"text":"他們的外交白皮書"},{"start":12386.43,"end":12388.43,"text":"那國際的智庫以及社群"},{"start":12388.43,"end":12390.43,"text":"的一個媒體"},{"start":12390.43,"end":12392.43,"text":"的方式不斷的來向世界各國"},{"start":12392.43,"end":12394.43,"text":"世界來宣揚"},{"start":12394.43,"end":12396.43,"text":"他的一個主權的主張"},{"start":12396.43,"end":12398.43,"text":"尤其今年是"},{"start":12398.43,"end":12400.43,"text":"第十年"},{"start":12400.43,"end":12402.43,"text":"所以在其他各國"},{"start":12402.43,"end":12404.43,"text":"他們努力的如此在做"},{"start":12404.43,"end":12406.43,"text":"甚至在美日非"},{"start":12406.43,"end":12408.43,"text":"加澳以及歐洲"},{"start":12408.43,"end":12410.43,"text":"這十四個國家他們"},{"start":12410.43,"end":12412.43,"text":"發表的聯合的一個聲明"},{"start":12412.43,"end":12414.43,"text":"發表聯合的聲明"},{"start":12414.43,"end":12416.43,"text":"那麼他重申喔"},{"start":12416.43,"end":12418.43,"text":"這個裁決是具有法律"},{"start":12418.43,"end":12420.43,"text":"約束力"},{"start":12420.43,"end":12422.43,"text":"那換句話說在南海仲裁案將我們"},{"start":12422.43,"end":12424.43,"text":"將太平島"},{"start":12424.43,"end":12426.43,"text":"降格為礁"},{"start":12426.43,"end":12428.43,"text":"這個嚴重到"},{"start":12428.43,"end":12430.43,"text":"一個主權的問題"},{"start":12430.43,"end":12432.43,"text":"嚴重到一個經濟海域"},{"start":12432.43,"end":12434.43,"text":"從兩百多海域的"},{"start":12434.43,"end":12436.43,"text":"經濟量體"},{"start":12436.43,"end":12438.43,"text":"但是說到礁是十二海域"},{"start":12438.43,"end":12440.43,"text":"十二海域"},{"start":12440.43,"end":12442.43,"text":"的這個範圍"},{"start":12442.43,"end":12444.43,"text":"所以在這樣嚴重的一個情況之下"},{"start":12444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委員好"},{"start":12556.47,"end":12558.47,"text":"我是調法師司長李憲章"},{"start":12558.47,"end":12560.47,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12560.47,"end":12562.47,"text":"其實我們跟國內的國際法學者"},{"start":12562.47,"end":12564.47,"text":"海洋法學者都有很密切的交流"},{"start":12564.47,"end":12566.47,"text":"像昨天我就跟中華民國國際法學"},{"start":12566.47,"end":12568.47,"text":"的秘書長"},{"start":12568.47,"end":12570.47,"text":"王振英王教授"},{"start":12570.47,"end":12572.47,"text":"國內的法學者"},{"start":12572.47,"end":12574.47,"text":"對 還有我們也透過他們跟國外的國際法學會"},{"start":12574.47,"end":12576.47,"text":"做很多的密切的交流"},{"start":12576.47,"end":12578.47,"text":"再來請教"},{"start":12577.51,"end":12581.51,"text":"努力在做 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朝這個目標"},{"start":12912.65,"end":12914.65,"text":"目前就交涉中"},{"start":12914.65,"end":12916.65,"text":"然後有一些國家也陸續有發生"},{"start":12916.65,"end":12918.65,"text":"就是"},{"start":12919.9,"end":12921.9,"text":"支持台灣"},{"start":12921.9,"end":12923.9,"text":"繼續在這邊維持我們的代表處"},{"start":12923.9,"end":12925.9,"text":"那請教"},{"start":12925.9,"end":12927.9,"text":"八點到目前為止"},{"start":12927.9,"end":12929.9,"text":"有沒有善意的回應"},{"start":12929.22,"end":12931.22,"text":"就是在交涉中"},{"start":12931.22,"end":12933.22,"text":"一定要加油"},{"start":12933.22,"end":12935.22,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12936.47,"end":12938.47,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12939.14,"end":12943.14,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢"},{"start":12955,"end":12957,"text":"你好 我們請部長"},{"start":12957,"end":12959,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":12967.02,"end":12969.02,"text":"委員好 部長好"},{"start":12969.99,"end":12973.99,"text":"最近有一個比較重要的民調"},{"start":12973.99,"end":12975.99,"text":"由全球的民調統計"},{"start":12975.99,"end":12977.99,"text":"由皮尤研究中心來統計"},{"start":12977.99,"end":12979.99,"text":"近二十年來"},{"start":12979.99,"end":12981.99,"text":"有出現首次中國的"},{"start":12981.99,"end":12983.99,"text":"整體在各個國家的觀感"},{"start":12983.99,"end":12985.99,"text":"超過美國的狀況"},{"start":12986.12,"end":12988.12,"text":"那我認為這是一個非常值得"},{"start":12988.12,"end":12990.12,"text":"台灣警覺的一個部分"},{"start":12990.12,"end":12992.12,"text":"因為說中國的"},{"start":12992.12,"end":12994.12,"text":"過去我們的這個敘事模式"},{"start":12994.93,"end":12996.93,"text":"特別是在"},{"start":12996.93,"end":12998.93,"text":"2020年到"},{"start":12998.93,"end":13000.93,"text":"2023年左右"},{"start":13000.93,"end":13002.93,"text":"那幾年我們大概都是"},{"start":13002.93,"end":13004.93,"text":"以價值外交為主"},{"start":13004.93,"end":13006.93,"text":"那對台灣來說"},{"start":13006.93,"end":13008.93,"text":"民主跟我們的法治的制度"},{"start":13008.93,"end":13010.93,"text":"它一直以來就是"},{"start":13010.93,"end":13012.93,"text":"我們跟各個國家"},{"start":13012.93,"end":13014.93,"text":"交往的一個重要的基石"},{"start":13014.93,"end":13016.93,"text":"這是正確的 而且也是我們"},{"start":13016.93,"end":13018.93,"text":"必須要持續去推廣的"},{"start":13019.01,"end":13021.01,"text":"但是我們發覺到"},{"start":13021.01,"end":13023.01,"text":"三十幾個國家的這個"},{"start":13023.01,"end":13025.01,"text":"涵蓋三十多個國家的這個調查"},{"start":13025.22,"end":13027.22,"text":"其中很多國家"},{"start":13027.29,"end":13029.29,"text":"他們對中國的信任度"},{"start":13029.29,"end":13031.29,"text":"甚至高過於美國的"},{"start":13031.29,"end":13033.29,"text":"那這些國家主要的分布"},{"start":13033.29,"end":13035.29,"text":"有哪一些分布"},{"start":13035.29,"end":13037.29,"text":"當然在非洲國家也好"},{"start":13037.29,"end":13039.29,"text":"或者是在東南亞國家也好"},{"start":13039.29,"end":13041.29,"text":"或者是傳統的這個"},{"start":13041.29,"end":13043.29,"text":"新興大國"},{"start":13043.29,"end":13045.29,"text":"新興國家他可能會對中國的"},{"start":13045.29,"end":13047.29,"text":"支持度比較高"},{"start":13047.29,"end":13049.29,"text":"那我們仔細去研擬"},{"start":13049.29,"end":13051.29,"text":"研析這個問題"},{"start":13051.29,"end":13053.29,"text":"大概可以看到有些是以經濟利益為考量"},{"start":13054.08,"end":13056.08,"text":"那傳統上的歐洲國家"},{"start":13056.08,"end":13058.08,"text":"那當然是因為近期的"},{"start":13058.08,"end":13060.08,"text":"美歐之間的關係"},{"start":13060.08,"end":13062.08,"text":"沒有像過往這樣子"},{"start":13062.08,"end":13064.08,"text":"那當然有一些變動"},{"start":13064.08,"end":13066.08,"text":"但是我必須要強調就是說"},{"start":13066.08,"end":13068.08,"text":"看來我們的外交的這個論述"},{"start":13068.08,"end":13070.08,"text":"國家的論述"},{"start":13070.08,"end":13072.08,"text":"他必須要從價值外交"},{"start":13072.08,"end":13074.08,"text":"到林部長你講的全方位外交"},{"start":13074.08,"end":13076.08,"text":"也就是說我們要把國家安全"},{"start":13076.08,"end":13078.08,"text":"國家價值"},{"start":13078.08,"end":13080.08,"text":"還有國家的責任"},{"start":13080.08,"end":13082.08,"text":"跟國家能夠"},{"start":13082.08,"end":13084.08,"text":"扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":13084.08,"end":13086.08,"text":"來去協助開發中國家"},{"start":13086.08,"end":13088.08,"text":"這四個基石要把它"},{"start":13088.08,"end":13090.08,"text":"合而為一成為一個完整的論述"},{"start":13090.08,"end":13092.08,"text":"而這個論述必須在我國的平台"},{"start":13092.08,"end":13094.08,"text":"各個平台上面"},{"start":13094.08,"end":13096.08,"text":"有完整的平台"},{"start":13096.08,"end":13098.08,"text":"用這樣子的方式把國家戰略"},{"start":13098.08,"end":13100.08,"text":"好好地去闡述出來"},{"start":13100.08,"end":13102.08,"text":"這樣我們會得到更多國家的認同"},{"start":13102.08,"end":13104.08,"text":"那歐洲國家一直以來"},{"start":13104.08,"end":13106.08,"text":"跟我們台灣都有非常密切的關係"},{"start":13106.08,"end":13108.08,"text":"因為他建立在不僅是市場上面"},{"start":13108.08,"end":13110.08,"text":"的依賴性以及對價值上面"},{"start":13110.08,"end":13112.08,"text":"我們是彼此是有這個"},{"start":13112.08,"end":13114.08,"text":"互通性"},{"start":13114.08,"end":13116.08,"text":"而且是對人權的價值"},{"start":13116.08,"end":13118.08,"text":"對民主的價值都有很高的充電"},{"start":13119.15,"end":13121.15,"text":"但在日本跟菲律賓的話"},{"start":13121.15,"end":13123.15,"text":"那可能我們所要的"},{"start":13123.15,"end":13125.15,"text":"要關注的就是安全上面的議題"},{"start":13125.15,"end":13127.15,"text":"海事上面的議題"},{"start":13127.15,"end":13129.15,"text":"在海洋上面的議題"},{"start":13129.15,"end":13131.15,"text":"這是我們有共同的利害關係的"},{"start":13131.15,"end":13133.15,"text":"東南亞國家以及非洲國家"},{"start":13133.15,"end":13135.15,"text":"我想可能就是在基礎建設"},{"start":13135.15,"end":13137.15,"text":"以及我們台灣能夠提供什麼樣的"},{"start":13137.15,"end":13139.15,"text":"經濟上面的誘因"},{"start":13139.15,"end":13141.15,"text":"來跟他們合作"},{"start":13141.15,"end":13143.15,"text":"我想因為我看到部長對這個的論述是很全面的"},{"start":13143.15,"end":13145.15,"text":"那就是把我們之前"},{"start":13145.15,"end":13147.15,"text":"過去比較沒有補充的這個國家戰略"},{"start":13147.15,"end":13149.15,"text":"把它完全補充起來"},{"start":13149.15,"end":13151.15,"text":"部長是不是可以簡單回應你覺得"},{"start":13151.15,"end":13153.15,"text":"未來特別是我們的國家安全"},{"start":13153.15,"end":13155.15,"text":"國家的這個形象"},{"start":13155.15,"end":13157.15,"text":"我們能夠怎麼樣來用各個面向"},{"start":13157.15,"end":13159.15,"text":"來把它促進"},{"start":13159.11,"end":13161.11,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13161.11,"end":13163.11,"text":"我們是在推動總和外交"},{"start":13163.11,"end":13165.11,"text":"因為外交是綜合國力的呈現"},{"start":13165.11,"end":13167.11,"text":"事實上台灣的國力是很強的"},{"start":13167.11,"end":13169.11,"text":"可是過去並沒有反應在外交上"},{"start":13169.11,"end":13171.11,"text":"外交不是外交部的"},{"start":13171.11,"end":13173.11,"text":"外交是台灣的外交"},{"start":13173.11,"end":13175.11,"text":"所以總統請"},{"start":13175.11,"end":13177.11,"text":"我就是去規劃"},{"start":13177.11,"end":13179.11,"text":"有關於總和外交是搭配三鏈戰略"},{"start":13179.11,"end":13181.11,"text":"然後落實在龍邦計畫"},{"start":13181.11,"end":13183.11,"text":"那三鏈戰略大家知道是價值外交"},{"start":13183.11,"end":13185.11,"text":"同盟外交跟經濟的外交"},{"start":13185.11,"end":13187.11,"text":"而龍邦計畫"},{"start":13187.11,"end":13189.11,"text":"那八個優勢我們台灣可以輸出"},{"start":13189.11,"end":13191.11,"text":"而且可以共榮"},{"start":13191.11,"end":13193.11,"text":"那這個也反應在我們的預算上"},{"start":13193.11,"end":13195.11,"text":"而且不只是"},{"start":13195.11,"end":13197.11,"text":"所謂政府部都是外交部"},{"start":13197.11,"end":13199.11,"text":"我們有雙部長會議"},{"start":13199.11,"end":13201.11,"text":"最主要有十個部會都是雙部長"},{"start":13201.11,"end":13203.11,"text":"比如說醫療衛生的外交"},{"start":13203.11,"end":13205.11,"text":"我就跟衛福部密切合作"},{"start":13205.11,"end":13207.11,"text":"那當然其他包括科技文化"},{"start":13207.11,"end":13209.11,"text":"等等"},{"start":13209.11,"end":13211.11,"text":"那這些龍邦計畫其實是"},{"start":13211.11,"end":13213.11,"text":"全世界最想跟我們來往的"},{"start":13213.11,"end":13215.11,"text":"那個八個旗艦計畫"},{"start":13215.11,"end":13217.11,"text":"你說好 我們的國家"},{"start":13217.11,"end":13219.11,"text":"如果一個國家來講"},{"start":13219.11,"end":13221.11,"text":"我們的生存跟發展是建立在我們的主權"},{"start":13221.11,"end":13223.11,"text":"跟安全"},{"start":13223.11,"end":13225.11,"text":"在美國 雖然不是我們的邦交國"},{"start":13225.11,"end":13227.11,"text":"但也有台灣關係法"},{"start":13227.11,"end":13229.11,"text":"所以我們怎麼去跟美國形成一個"},{"start":13229.11,"end":13231.11,"text":"台美的共生夥伴關係"},{"start":13231.11,"end":13233.11,"text":"那過去也許是民主理念"},{"start":13233.11,"end":13235.11,"text":"這種價值"},{"start":13235.11,"end":13237.11,"text":"然後又有安全上面包括這些"},{"start":13237.11,"end":13239.11,"text":"準同盟的關係"},{"start":13239.11,"end":13241.11,"text":"可是很重要我們台美的經貿"},{"start":13241.11,"end":13243.11,"text":"科技還有相關的這些投資關係"},{"start":13243.11,"end":13245.11,"text":"事實上是必須反映在我們外交的實力"},{"start":13245.11,"end":13247.11,"text":"跟我們的成果上"},{"start":13247.11,"end":13249.11,"text":"那這次我認為是重中之重"},{"start":13249.11,"end":13251.11,"text":"那再來就是我想"},{"start":13251.11,"end":13253.11,"text":"所謂的我們的邦交國"},{"start":13253.11,"end":13255.11,"text":"因為我們在國際上存在"},{"start":13255.11,"end":13257.11,"text":"如果沒有邦交國"},{"start":13257.11,"end":13259.11,"text":"雖然這些十二個國家不是"},{"start":13259.11,"end":13261.11,"text":"像美國或七十二個國家這麼大"},{"start":13261.11,"end":13263.11,"text":"可是他們重要性非常大"},{"start":13263.11,"end":13265.11,"text":"所以我們不能把它當作雙邊關係"},{"start":13265.11,"end":13267.11,"text":"事實上我們的邦交國十二個"},{"start":13267.11,"end":13269.11,"text":"分散在五大州"},{"start":13269.11,"end":13271.11,"text":"我們透過我們的邦交國可以去經營那個州"},{"start":13271.11,"end":13273.11,"text":"比如說巴拉圭經營南美洲"},{"start":13273.11,"end":13275.11,"text":"斯瓦丁也經營非洲"},{"start":13275.11,"end":13277.11,"text":"那太平洋三個島國"},{"start":13277.11,"end":13279.11,"text":"另外就是包括加勒比海地區"},{"start":13279.11,"end":13281.11,"text":"所以我們的整個"},{"start":13281.11,"end":13283.11,"text":"戰略是以區域聯防"},{"start":13283.11,"end":13285.11,"text":"在部署"},{"start":13285.11,"end":13287.11,"text":"當然我們怎麼樣去展示"},{"start":13287.11,"end":13289.11,"text":"跟台灣建立邦交"},{"start":13289.11,"end":13291.11,"text":"是對大家都有利的事情"},{"start":13291.11,"end":13293.11,"text":"這個我們在這兩年來"},{"start":13293.11,"end":13295.11,"text":"其實是做了很多很多的努力跟整合"},{"start":13295.11,"end":13297.11,"text":"那第三個我認為是"},{"start":13297.11,"end":13299.11,"text":"G7跟在地緣政治上"},{"start":13299.11,"end":13301.11,"text":"比如說菲律賓"},{"start":13301.11,"end":13303.11,"text":"第一島鏈"},{"start":13303.11,"end":13305.11,"text":"波蘭雖然不是G7"},{"start":13305.11,"end":13307.11,"text":"可是他是俄羅斯"},{"start":13307.11,"end":13309.11,"text":"這個擴張最前沿"},{"start":13309.11,"end":13311.11,"text":"這些其實"},{"start":13311.11,"end":13313.11,"text":"有我們戰略上的意義"},{"start":13313.11,"end":13315.11,"text":"所以我們過去外交部的預算人士"},{"start":13315.11,"end":13317.11,"text":"的分配比較沒有從這個角度"},{"start":13317.11,"end":13319.11,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":13319.11,"end":13321.11,"text":"我們現在在調整中"},{"start":13321.11,"end":13323.11,"text":"基本上就是利益責任安全"},{"start":13323.11,"end":13325.11,"text":"跟價值"},{"start":13325.11,"end":13327.11,"text":"隨著國家的戰略變化"},{"start":13327.11,"end":13329.11,"text":"在這次續可能也要稍微做一個排序上面的變化"},{"start":13330.23,"end":13332.23,"text":"接下來我想要"},{"start":13332.23,"end":13334.23,"text":"特別要請教部長"},{"start":13334.23,"end":13336.23,"text":"跟烏克蘭的合作也好"},{"start":13336.23,"end":13338.23,"text":"或者是無人機小組的部分"},{"start":13337.95,"end":13339.95,"text":"我們都知道說"},{"start":13339.95,"end":13341.95,"text":"我們現在國家很重視"},{"start":13341.95,"end":13343.95,"text":"無人載機的發展"},{"start":13343.95,"end":13345.95,"text":"我們民雄航台園區"},{"start":13345.95,"end":13347.95,"text":"一方面中科院的園區"},{"start":13347.95,"end":13349.95,"text":"已經要完工"},{"start":13349.95,"end":13351.95,"text":"另外一個部分就是由"},{"start":13351.95,"end":13353.95,"text":"我們一般的"},{"start":13353.95,"end":13355.95,"text":"軍民兩用的園區"},{"start":13355.95,"end":13357.95,"text":"準備要動土,在同一天正式的"},{"start":13357.95,"end":13359.95,"text":"把它一個做完工"},{"start":13359.95,"end":13361.95,"text":"一個就做動土"},{"start":13361.95,"end":13363.95,"text":"那為什麼要講到這件事情"},{"start":13363.95,"end":13365.95,"text":"是因為我們發現中外各個地方"},{"start":13365.95,"end":13367.95,"text":"都有許多的"},{"start":13367.95,"end":13369.95,"text":"無人載具的這些公司"},{"start":13369.95,"end":13371.95,"text":"大型的"},{"start":13371.95,"end":13373.95,"text":"甚至是獨角獸"},{"start":13373.95,"end":13375.95,"text":"這種大型的這種新創的"},{"start":13375.95,"end":13377.95,"text":"或者甚至有些以上式的"},{"start":13377.95,"end":13379.95,"text":"這些公司都想要來去進駐"},{"start":13379.95,"end":13381.95,"text":"那進駐的話他們都"},{"start":13381.95,"end":13383.95,"text":"會希望說能夠得到"},{"start":13383.95,"end":13385.95,"text":"有一個統一的窗口"},{"start":13385.95,"end":13387.95,"text":"統一的平台"},{"start":13387.95,"end":13389.95,"text":"那能夠得到關於園區的最新的訊息"},{"start":13389.95,"end":13391.95,"text":"那這個訊息就變成說"},{"start":13391.95,"end":13393.95,"text":"他的語言他的翻譯很重要"},{"start":13393.95,"end":13395.95,"text":"所以中科院當然"},{"start":13395.95,"end":13397.95,"text":"自己有在做他們的部分"},{"start":13397.95,"end":13399.95,"text":"但是如果外交部剛才有提到說"},{"start":13399.95,"end":13401.95,"text":"部部都是外交部"},{"start":13401.95,"end":13403.95,"text":"如果能夠協助我們把這個航太園區"},{"start":13403.95,"end":13405.95,"text":"做一個更完整的說明"},{"start":13405.95,"end":13407.95,"text":"把結合財政的誘因"},{"start":13407.95,"end":13409.95,"text":"經濟的誘因"},{"start":13409.95,"end":13411.95,"text":"還有這個我們國家跟無人載具"},{"start":13411.95,"end":13413.95,"text":"跟中科院的這些等等的"},{"start":13413.95,"end":13415.95,"text":"這些內容全部在即便成為冊子"},{"start":13415.95,"end":13417.95,"text":"成為各個版本"},{"start":13417.95,"end":13419.95,"text":"不管是英文或者是"},{"start":13419.95,"end":13421.95,"text":"歐洲各國的語言,這樣子的話"},{"start":13421.95,"end":13423.95,"text":"我們國家想要進駐的時候"},{"start":13423.95,"end":13425.95,"text":"就知道去怎麼樣接觸,怎麼樣有窗口"},{"start":13425.95,"end":13427.95,"text":"另外一個部分喔,其實"},{"start":13427.95,"end":13429.95,"text":"我一直在想喔"},{"start":13429.34,"end":13431.34,"text":"就包含我們自己在內喔"},{"start":13431.34,"end":13433.34,"text":"在外交委員會的"},{"start":13433.34,"end":13435.34,"text":"國防外交委員會的召委"},{"start":13435.34,"end":13437.34,"text":"我們常常都遇到大量的"},{"start":13437.34,"end":13439.34,"text":"這一個,不管是國內"},{"start":13439.34,"end":13441.34,"text":"來台灣的世界"},{"start":13441.34,"end":13443.34,"text":"或者是大量的產業"},{"start":13444.06,"end":13446.06,"text":"那這些企業等等"},{"start":13446.06,"end":13448.06,"text":"我們其實就靠自己辦公室的能力"},{"start":13448.06,"end":13450.06,"text":"是等於是沒有辦法"},{"start":13450.06,"end":13452.06,"text":"一應而足來去協助的"},{"start":13452.06,"end":13454.06,"text":"其實我在想喔,其實包含"},{"start":13454.06,"end":13456.06,"text":"立法院過去沒有國際處"},{"start":13456.06,"end":13458.06,"text":"後來有國際處的建立"},{"start":13458.06,"end":13460.06,"text":"可以思考一下韓國的模式喔"},{"start":13460.06,"end":13462.06,"text":"韓國的這個,他們的召集委員"},{"start":13462.06,"end":13464.06,"text":"他們是有駐派"},{"start":13464.06,"end":13466.06,"text":"外交國防會有派駐"},{"start":13466.06,"end":13468.06,"text":"這一個外交部的官員"},{"start":13468.06,"end":13470.06,"text":"來去協助召個召委處理"},{"start":13470.06,"end":13472.06,"text":"相關的事務,也就是說"},{"start":13472.06,"end":13474.06,"text":"不用再用我們國會辦公室的"},{"start":13474.06,"end":13476.06,"text":"這一個人員"},{"start":13476.06,"end":13478.06,"text":"來去,一個一個的"},{"start":13478.06,"end":13480.06,"text":"去協助他們接觸這些窗口"},{"start":13480.06,"end":13482.06,"text":"等於說,我一方面做為選區的委員"},{"start":13482.06,"end":13484.06,"text":"我要服務我們選區的民眾"},{"start":13484.06,"end":13486.06,"text":"另一方面,我們同時還要"},{"start":13486.06,"end":13488.06,"text":"扮演外交部的角色"},{"start":13488.06,"end":13490.06,"text":"那之前還有一些"},{"start":13490.06,"end":13492.06,"text":"來自各國的智庫說,欸"},{"start":13492.06,"end":13494.06,"text":"是不是可以請召委幫我們聯繫"},{"start":13494.06,"end":13496.06,"text":"比方說陳永康委員啊"},{"start":13496.06,"end":13498.06,"text":"誰誰誰委員,那我們當然都協助"},{"start":13498.06,"end":13500.06,"text":"來去轉介,但是"},{"start":13500.06,"end":13502.06,"text":"對我們來說,是一個很大的"},{"start":13502.06,"end":13504.06,"text":"負擔,就是我們是希望說"},{"start":13504.06,"end":13506.06,"text":"未來,外交部可以思考"},{"start":13506.06,"end":13508.06,"text":"大家就是有任務型的,他不是"},{"start":13508.06,"end":13510.06,"text":"跟人,而是跟著這個召集委員"},{"start":13510.06,"end":13512.06,"text":"在他們的工作的時候"},{"start":13512.06,"end":13514.06,"text":"來協助,來去轉介"},{"start":13514.06,"end":13516.06,"text":"來去做這個平台上面的"},{"start":13516.06,"end":13518.06,"text":"支援,我認為這是一個"},{"start":13518.06,"end":13520.06,"text":"未來可以想的方向,我竟然"},{"start":13520.06,"end":13522.06,"text":"國會"},{"start":13521.56,"end":13523.56,"text":"現在我們出去,當然大家介紹的時候"},{"start":13523.56,"end":13525.56,"text":"說我們是Cochair這樣子"},{"start":13525.56,"end":13527.56,"text":"但是其實做一個Cochair,我們的"},{"start":13527.56,"end":13529.56,"text":"這個資源,跟我們的"},{"start":13529.56,"end":13531.56,"text":"這個很難去應付"},{"start":13531.56,"end":13533.56,"text":"台灣已經慢慢成"},{"start":13533.8,"end":13535.8,"text":"中等國家變成,其實某種程度"},{"start":13535.8,"end":13537.8,"text":"是中等國家的"},{"start":13537.8,"end":13539.8,"text":"超級強權,因為以台灣的"},{"start":13539.8,"end":13541.8,"text":"經濟實力"},{"start":13541.8,"end":13543.8,"text":"還有我們的各個指標上面"},{"start":13543.8,"end":13545.8,"text":"我們不是普通的中等國家"},{"start":13545.8,"end":13547.8,"text":"在中等國家裡面,我們已經接近G20的"},{"start":13547.8,"end":13549.8,"text":"這個規模嘛,那與其我們"},{"start":13549.8,"end":13551.8,"text":"出口到美國的,已經是"},{"start":13551.8,"end":13553.8,"text":"美國第三大的"},{"start":13553.8,"end":13555.8,"text":"我們是美國第三大的這個"},{"start":13555.8,"end":13557.8,"text":"我們是出口國,第三大出口國他們的進口國"},{"start":13557.8,"end":13559.8,"text":"所以這個就是納入"},{"start":13559.8,"end":13561.8,"text":"我們的考量,就是未來思考一下"},{"start":13563.11,"end":13565.11,"text":"下次可能不是我,但是我覺得這個是"},{"start":13565.11,"end":13567.11,"text":"要"},{"start":13567.58,"end":13569.58,"text":"要做的方向啦,特別是我們在"},{"start":13569.58,"end":13571.58,"text":"擴大我們的影響力的時候"},{"start":13571.58,"end":13573.58,"text":"部長是不是可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":13574.06,"end":13576.06,"text":"報告委員,因為剛剛有提到無人機"},{"start":13576.06,"end":13578.06,"text":"當然我們無人機外交,外交部"},{"start":13578.06,"end":13580.06,"text":"是一個平台,我們111個外館"},{"start":13580.06,"end":13582.06,"text":"所以會跟"},{"start":13582.06,"end":13584.06,"text":"各國或各國會想要跟我們來往"},{"start":13585.1,"end":13587.1,"text":"所以我們會提出無人機外交"},{"start":13587.1,"end":13589.1,"text":"在去年10月"},{"start":13589.1,"end":13591.1,"text":"今年5月,承司基他"},{"start":13592.07,"end":13594.07,"text":"正式在推無人機外交"},{"start":13594.7,"end":13596.7,"text":"所以報告委員就說"},{"start":13597.08,"end":13599.08,"text":"我們當然知道說涉及的"},{"start":13599.08,"end":13601.08,"text":"包括經濟部國防部啦,還有這個"},{"start":13601.08,"end":13603.08,"text":"海委會等等都有"},{"start":13603.08,"end":13605.08,"text":"不過我們就想做一個平台"},{"start":13605.08,"end":13607.08,"text":"那我們就參考以前有個叫AI Academy"},{"start":13607.08,"end":13609.08,"text":"就人工智慧學校"},{"start":13609.08,"end":13611.08,"text":"我們希望鼓勵企業界也可以組織起來"},{"start":13611.08,"end":13613.08,"text":"有個公協會"},{"start":13613.08,"end":13615.08,"text":"跟我們對接"},{"start":13615.96,"end":13617.96,"text":"我們現在有個無人機外交的小組"},{"start":13617.96,"end":13619.96,"text":"任務編組"},{"start":13619.34,"end":13621.34,"text":"現在也是有先前負責亞創"},{"start":13621.34,"end":13623.34,"text":"在經濟部擔任"},{"start":13623.34,"end":13625.34,"text":"這個經發局長"},{"start":13625.34,"end":13627.34,"text":"所以剛好跟"},{"start":13627.34,"end":13629.34,"text":"地方,不管是嘉義"},{"start":13629.34,"end":13631.34,"text":"或是多跟產業界"},{"start":13631.34,"end":13633.34,"text":"都很密切的關係"},{"start":13633.34,"end":13635.34,"text":"那我們當然也會有一個單一的窗口"},{"start":13635.34,"end":13637.34,"text":"做這個跟國際的合作"},{"start":13637.34,"end":13639.34,"text":"交流的一個"},{"start":13639.34,"end":13641.34,"text":"平台,然後再跟我們"},{"start":13641.34,"end":13643.34,"text":"嘉義這邊會來結合"},{"start":13643.34,"end":13645.34,"text":"就是說,包括"},{"start":13645.34,"end":13647.34,"text":"在亞創,現在在民雄"},{"start":13647.34,"end":13649.34,"text":"開發新的園區"},{"start":13649.34,"end":13651.34,"text":"那我們可以把一些資訊"},{"start":13651.34,"end":13653.34,"text":"還有相關的媒合"},{"start":13653.34,"end":13655.34,"text":"還有辦過競賽展覽"},{"start":13655.34,"end":13657.34,"text":"另外就是很多的訓練"},{"start":13657.34,"end":13659.34,"text":"背對我們的邦交國有12個"},{"start":13659.34,"end":13661.34,"text":"其實都很需要無人載具"},{"start":13661.34,"end":13663.34,"text":"而且變成我們"},{"start":13663.34,"end":13665.34,"text":"很好的一個場域"},{"start":13665.34,"end":13667.34,"text":"我們也可以去向世界展示"},{"start":13667.34,"end":13669.34,"text":"台灣的實力"},{"start":13669.34,"end":13671.34,"text":"所以這個無人機外交"},{"start":13671.34,"end":13673.34,"text":"是除了邦交國以外,當然對邦交國"},{"start":13674.33,"end":13676.33,"text":"我想大家對這很重視的就是"},{"start":13676.33,"end":13678.33,"text":"包括我們國家的國產"},{"start":13678.33,"end":13680.33,"text":"可以輸出到歐洲"},{"start":13680.33,"end":13682.33,"text":"或中東越來越多"},{"start":13682.33,"end":13684.33,"text":"另外就是像我們隔壁國家,像菲律賓"},{"start":13684.33,"end":13686.33,"text":"日本,這些交流合作"},{"start":13686.33,"end":13688.33,"text":"也是越來越多"},{"start":13688.33,"end":13690.33,"text":"所以我想就這個部分"},{"start":13690.33,"end":13692.33,"text":"我們會再跟委員來請議"},{"start":13692.33,"end":13694.33,"text":"怎麼樣透過這個"},{"start":13694.33,"end":13696.33,"text":"委員的中央跟地方的連結"},{"start":13696.33,"end":13698.33,"text":"那第二個部分呢"},{"start":13699.81,"end":13701.81,"text":"在造極委員協助外交部派員"},{"start":13702.67,"end":13704.67,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13707.51,"end":13709.51,"text":"派外交部到造極委員"},{"start":13709.51,"end":13711.51,"text":"那邊喔"},{"start":13711.51,"end":13713.51,"text":"來協助這個議見"},{"start":13713.51,"end":13715.51,"text":"我們當然有國際處"},{"start":13715.51,"end":13717.51,"text":"我們先不要說要或不要"},{"start":13717.51,"end":13719.51,"text":"因為這不是示威題"},{"start":13719.51,"end":13721.51,"text":"我們要問的是說"},{"start":13721.28,"end":13723.28,"text":"參考其他國家"},{"start":13723.28,"end":13725.28,"text":"比方說韓國他們是怎麼樣"},{"start":13725.28,"end":13727.28,"text":"其實其他國家的國會都很強大到"},{"start":13727.28,"end":13729.28,"text":"其實有很強的研究"},{"start":13729.28,"end":13731.28,"text":"還有這個在做這個"},{"start":13731.28,"end":13733.28,"text":"國會外交上面的"},{"start":13733.28,"end":13735.28,"text":"部長我抱歉"},{"start":13735.28,"end":13737.28,"text":"可能我再闡述比較清晰一點"},{"start":13737.28,"end":13739.28,"text":"韓國是這樣子的"},{"start":13739.28,"end":13741.28,"text":"韓國他們的外有會的主席"},{"start":13741.28,"end":13743.28,"text":"他是會有外交部會派駐官員"},{"start":13743.28,"end":13745.28,"text":"來去協助他們的造委"},{"start":13745.28,"end":13747.28,"text":"聯絡相關事項"},{"start":13747.28,"end":13749.28,"text":"包含這個跟各個時節"},{"start":13749.28,"end":13751.28,"text":"派駐等等就是等於是"},{"start":13751.28,"end":13753.28,"text":"你們派駐在這個"},{"start":13753.28,"end":13755.28,"text":"國會的狀況"},{"start":13755.28,"end":13757.28,"text":"他是針對造極委員"},{"start":13757.28,"end":13759.28,"text":"那我認為是可以先參考一下韓國的"},{"start":13759.28,"end":13761.28,"text":"這個做法"},{"start":13761.28,"end":13763.28,"text":"先看一下對方為什麼要這麼做"},{"start":13763.28,"end":13765.28,"text":"以及他們的做法上面的成效是什麼"},{"start":13765.28,"end":13767.28,"text":"那我們接下來就可以做下一步"},{"start":13767.28,"end":13769.28,"text":"我為什麼特別這樣講"},{"start":13769.28,"end":13771.28,"text":"不是說韓國而已"},{"start":13771.28,"end":13773.28,"text":"上次出訪是六月底的時候"},{"start":13774.06,"end":13776.06,"text":"然後在我們在上次出訪是非常成功的"},{"start":13776.06,"end":13778.06,"text":"在"},{"start":13778.06,"end":13780.06,"text":"有大概有我看起來是40個"},{"start":13780.06,"end":13782.06,"text":"國會議員都有來參與我們的"},{"start":13782.06,"end":13784.06,"text":"這個相關的"},{"start":13784.06,"end":13786.06,"text":"這個紀念的"},{"start":13786.06,"end":13788.06,"text":"250週年跟台美關係的這個"},{"start":13788.06,"end":13790.06,"text":"酒會"},{"start":13790.06,"end":13792.06,"text":"那這裡面我們看到一些資深的"},{"start":13792.06,"end":13794.06,"text":"國會助理他們是派駐"},{"start":13794.06,"end":13796.06,"text":"在有些是派駐在這個"},{"start":13796.06,"end":13798.06,"text":"共和黨的有些是派駐在"},{"start":13798.06,"end":13800.06,"text":"民主黨的他們的主席國會相關"},{"start":13800.06,"end":13802.06,"text":"的主席他們的薪資其實比"},{"start":13802.06,"end":13804.06,"text":"國會議員還高"},{"start":13804.06,"end":13806.06,"text":"而且他們是長時間在那個地方"},{"start":13806.06,"end":13808.06,"text":"來去協助"},{"start":13808.06,"end":13810.06,"text":"那這是另外一個話題"},{"start":13810.06,"end":13812.06,"text":"這跟我們說外交部派員是另一件事情"},{"start":13812.06,"end":13814.06,"text":"我一直想講的就是說國會"},{"start":13814.06,"end":13816.06,"text":"既然可以扮演這麼重要的角色"},{"start":13816.06,"end":13818.06,"text":"不管是在審預算上面"},{"start":13818.06,"end":13820.06,"text":"他是對各個部會的這個"},{"start":13820.18,"end":13822.18,"text":"解釋力這麼大"},{"start":13822.18,"end":13824.18,"text":"可是相對的國會議員他"},{"start":13824.66,"end":13826.66,"text":"必須要靠自己的有限的能力"},{"start":13826.66,"end":13828.66,"text":"而不是靠"},{"start":13828.66,"end":13830.66,"text":"有政府在上面來協助的資源"},{"start":13830.66,"end":13832.66,"text":"那其實我們的品質上面"},{"start":13832.66,"end":13834.66,"text":"一定會受到影響"},{"start":13834.66,"end":13836.66,"text":"所以我一直在講說國會"},{"start":13836.66,"end":13838.66,"text":"大家都說國會非常重要"},{"start":13838.66,"end":13840.66,"text":"因為國會節制在不管是特別是國防部"},{"start":13840.66,"end":13842.66,"text":"這麼重大的預算"},{"start":13842.66,"end":13844.66,"text":"但我們沒有長時間有人"},{"start":13844.66,"end":13846.66,"text":"來派駐來協助讓我們去"},{"start":13846.66,"end":13848.66,"text":"從領整領這些重要的資訊"},{"start":13848.66,"end":13850.66,"text":"所以每一次都是斷層"},{"start":13850.66,"end":13852.66,"text":"每一屆每一個人都是斷層"},{"start":13852.66,"end":13854.66,"text":"因為現有的"},{"start":13854.66,"end":13856.66,"text":"藉由這個機會順便講"},{"start":13856.66,"end":13858.66,"text":"現有的我們的立法院的這些"},{"start":13858.66,"end":13860.66,"text":"都是文官上面"},{"start":13860.66,"end":13862.66,"text":"文官上面協助我們"},{"start":13862.66,"end":13864.66,"text":"意識上面的形成"},{"start":13864.66,"end":13866.66,"text":"而不是針對實質的內容"},{"start":13866.66,"end":13868.66,"text":"上面來協助"},{"start":13868.66,"end":13870.66,"text":"這是有分開的喔"},{"start":13870.66,"end":13872.66,"text":"所以為什麼說外交部要有官員"},{"start":13872.66,"end":13874.66,"text":"來去協助"},{"start":13874.66,"end":13876.66,"text":"有一部分的原因是"},{"start":13876.66,"end":13878.66,"text":"除了立法上面的這些議程上面"},{"start":13878.66,"end":13880.66,"text":"這些數物上面"},{"start":13879.72,"end":13881.72,"text":"還有實質的外交事務上面"},{"start":13881.72,"end":13883.72,"text":"他必須要有專業的官員"},{"start":13883.72,"end":13885.72,"text":"長期在這邊"},{"start":13887.67,"end":13889.67,"text":"我 陳萬林委員"},{"start":13889.67,"end":13891.67,"text":"或者是馬文君委員"},{"start":13891.67,"end":13893.67,"text":"或者是其他的這個"},{"start":13893.67,"end":13895.67,"text":"什麼黃仁啊"},{"start":13895.67,"end":13897.67,"text":"黃仁委員還是陳柏楊委員"},{"start":13897.67,"end":13899.67,"text":"不是 他serve的是一個"},{"start":13899.67,"end":13901.67,"text":"召集委員他的工作"},{"start":13901.67,"end":13903.67,"text":"實質內容的性質"},{"start":13903.67,"end":13905.67,"text":"這個我覺得是可以思考一下"},{"start":13905.67,"end":13907.67,"text":"那今天的質詢就先到這邊為止"},{"start":13907.67,"end":13909.67,"text":"那其實希望部長"},{"start":13909.67,"end":13911.67,"text":"能夠想一下"},{"start":13912.1,"end":13914.1,"text":"這個部長你的"},{"start":13913.89,"end":13915.89,"text":"經歷了從國安會到外交部"},{"start":13915.89,"end":13917.89,"text":"到交通部"},{"start":13917.89,"end":13919.89,"text":"你應該知道說國會他其實扮演的角色"},{"start":13919.89,"end":13921.89,"text":"竟然這麼重要可是每一次"},{"start":13922.18,"end":13924.18,"text":"他的實質內容他扮演的角色"},{"start":13924.18,"end":13926.18,"text":"很重要卻沒有相應的工具"},{"start":13926.18,"end":13928.18,"text":"讓他做有效的審查"},{"start":13928.18,"end":13930.18,"text":"這樣這個部分可不可以請部長"},{"start":13930.18,"end":13932.18,"text":"來回去真的想一下"},{"start":13932.18,"end":13934.18,"text":"好不好 好我們再請教委員"},{"start":13934.18,"end":13936.18,"text":"那當然國會跟"},{"start":13936.18,"end":13938.18,"text":"外交部其實也是"},{"start":13938.18,"end":13940.18,"text":"立法行政關係的一部分"},{"start":13940.18,"end":13942.18,"text":"應該怎麼樣的組織運作"},{"start":13942.18,"end":13944.18,"text":"那除了國際處"},{"start":13944.18,"end":13946.18,"text":"怎麼去營設怎麼強化"},{"start":13946.18,"end":13948.18,"text":"那委員會因為委員會是"},{"start":13948.18,"end":13950.18,"text":"國會運作的中心嘛"},{"start":13950.18,"end":13952.18,"text":"我想確實在制度"},{"start":13952.18,"end":13954.18,"text":"怎麼樣去創新"},{"start":13954.18,"end":13956.18,"text":"我們很願意去"},{"start":13956.18,"end":13958.18,"text":"聆聽"},{"start":13958.18,"end":13960.18,"text":"也看怎麼樣來"},{"start":13960.18,"end":13962.18,"text":"參與"},{"start":13962.18,"end":13964.18,"text":"老實說你這個"},{"start":13964.18,"end":13966.18,"text":"全面外交這個"},{"start":13966.18,"end":13968.18,"text":"跟過去你就是在做創新"},{"start":13968.18,"end":13970.18,"text":"那創新"},{"start":13969.97,"end":13971.97,"text":"有很多的方式我覺得"},{"start":13971.97,"end":13973.97,"text":"我們可以聽聽看我們這樣的建議"},{"start":13973.97,"end":13975.97,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝委員"},{"start":13977.95,"end":13979.95,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13979.62,"end":13981.62,"text":"接下來請葉源之"},{"start":13981.62,"end":13983.62,"text":"葉源之 葉源之委員不在"},{"start":13984.28,"end":13986.28,"text":"我們今天以登記質詢的委員"},{"start":13986.28,"end":13988.28,"text":"除不在場外軍已發言完畢"},{"start":13988.28,"end":13990.28,"text":"報告及詢答結束"},{"start":13990.28,"end":13992.28,"text":"本日會議有黃仁委員"},{"start":13992.28,"end":13994.28,"text":"沈柏楊委員提出書面質詢"},{"start":13994.28,"end":13996.28,"text":"請列入記錄並看登公報"},{"start":13996.28,"end":13998.28,"text":"委員書面及口頭質詢"},{"start":13998.28,"end":14000.28,"text":"未及答覆的部分"},{"start":14000.28,"end":14002.28,"text":"會要求補充資料者請相關機關"},{"start":14002.28,"end":14004.28,"text":"兩週內以書面答覆"},{"start":14004.28,"end":14006.28,"text":"委員有約定期限者"},{"start":14006.28,"end":14008.28,"text":"從其鎖定"},{"start":14008.28,"end":14010.28,"text":"本日會議到此結束"},{"start":14010.28,"end":14012.28,"text":"散會 謝謝 謝謝大家"},{"start":14012.28,"end":14014.28,"text":"辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}