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"},{"start":1805.6799999999998,"end":1808.24,"text":"納為勞保基金的來源"},{"start":1808.24,"end":1813.28,"text":"並且訂明依政府財政及勞保財務狀況"},{"start":1813.28,"end":1816.9599999999998,"text":"每年編列預算撥補勞保基金"},{"start":1816.9599999999998,"end":1820.1999999999998,"text":"未來勞動部也將會持續爭取"},{"start":1820.1999999999998,"end":1823.9599999999998,"text":"以不低於過去年度撥補的金額"},{"start":1823.9599999999998,"end":1826.08,"text":"繼續來編列預算"},{"start":1826.08,"end":1829.6,"text":"並且適時的爭取額外的資源預注"},{"start":1829.6,"end":1832.04,"text":"以穩定基金的流量"},{"start":1832.04,"end":1835.24,"text":"至於是不是能夠以法律明文規定"},{"start":1835.24,"end":1837.7199999999998,"text":"每年固定撥補的比例"},{"start":1837.7199999999998,"end":1840.4399999999998,"text":"考量財政紀律法的規定"},{"start":1840.4399999999998,"end":1844.52,"text":"各級政府及立法機關制定或修正法律"},{"start":1844.52,"end":1850.08,"text":"不可以不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障"},{"start":1850.08,"end":1854.8,"text":"故相關的法律的訂定必須符合上開的規定"},{"start":1854.8,"end":1857.56,"text":"另外再提升勞保投資報酬率"},{"start":1857.6,"end":1860.08,"text":"以及強化風險管控的部分"},{"start":1860.08,"end":1862.6,"text":"勞動部基金運用局"},{"start":1862.6,"end":1866.3999999999999,"text":"在恆佐法規限制及風險承受度下"},{"start":1866.3999999999999,"end":1868.6399999999999,"text":"以允當的資產配置"},{"start":1868.6399999999999,"end":1871.52,"text":"創造長期穩健的收益"},{"start":1871.52,"end":1874.1599999999999,"text":"截至今年五月底為止"},{"start":1874.1599999999999,"end":1879.6399999999999,"text":"勞保基金近三年五年十年多以來"},{"start":1879.6399999999999,"end":1883.56,"text":"我們平均收益分別達到了"},{"start":1883.56,"end":1887.2,"text":"22% 15% 跟 11%"},{"start":1887.3600000000001,"end":1891.8400000000001,"text":"不管是短中長期的績效都相當的穩健"},{"start":1893.44,"end":1897.8400000000001,"text":"運用局在訂有架構完整的風險管理體系"},{"start":1897.8400000000001,"end":1900.64,"text":"並且設有風控推動小組"},{"start":1900.64,"end":1903.8,"text":"檢視基金風險值跟它的變化"},{"start":1903.8,"end":1906.72,"text":"未來我們將持續檢視配置"},{"start":1906.72,"end":1910.32,"text":"兼顧基金投資效益及風險控管"},{"start":1910.32,"end":1912.52,"text":"有效掌握投資機會"},{"start":1912.52,"end":1915.4,"text":"以因應瞬息萬變的金融環境"},{"start":1916.98,"end":1919.3799999999999,"text":"有關勞工退休金的部分"},{"start":1919.3799999999999,"end":1923.3799999999999,"text":"勞退新制從民國94年實施到現在"},{"start":1923.3799999999999,"end":1927.54,"text":"已經成為台灣勞工退休的核心保障制度"},{"start":1927.54,"end":1930.86,"text":"那如何實質增加勞工的退休金"},{"start":1930.86,"end":1934.1399999999999,"text":"是勞動部持續努力的方向"},{"start":1934.1399999999999,"end":1937.1399999999999,"text":"為了要後時勞工的退休金"},{"start":1937.1399999999999,"end":1939.58,"text":"勞動部近日所推出的"},{"start":1939.58,"end":1942.82,"text":"勞退純就制勞工自願提繳"},{"start":1942.82,"end":1945.98,"text":"及提前節存退休金的方案"},{"start":1946.02,"end":1949.94,"text":"增加了純就制勞工自願提繳退休金"},{"start":1949.94,"end":1954.9,"text":"以及勞顧雙方合意提前節存退休金的選擇"},{"start":1954.9,"end":1957.1,"text":"在新制退休金制度"},{"start":1957.1,"end":1962.5,"text":"勞動部修正了勞工退休金條例的施行細則"},{"start":1962.5,"end":1967.8600000000001,"text":"確立雇主收取勞工自願提繳退休金的義務"},{"start":1967.8600000000001,"end":1970.02,"text":"請領月退休金者"},{"start":1970.02,"end":1974.1,"text":"可以在猶豫期內變更為一次退休金"},{"start":1974.5,"end":1976.34,"text":"不幸死亡的勞工"},{"start":1976.34,"end":1979.1399999999999,"text":"他的未成年遺屬或者是指定"},{"start":1979.1399999999999,"end":1984.82,"text":"請領繼承死亡勞工退休金的請求權實效"},{"start":1984.82,"end":1986.5,"text":"這十年的期間"},{"start":1986.5,"end":1991.1399999999999,"text":"我們也修改成從他的成年之日來起算"},{"start":1991.1399999999999,"end":1994.54,"text":"另外我們也擴大了勞工的遺屬"},{"start":1994.54,"end":1997.1399999999999,"text":"跟他的指定請領人為"},{"start":1997.1399999999999,"end":2002.34,"text":"退休金權益不得讓與抵銷或扣押的保障範圍"},{"start":2002.34,"end":2007.4199999999998,"text":"持續在新舊退休金制度上精進勞工的保障"},{"start":2007.4199999999998,"end":2012.4599999999998,"text":"退休金制本質上是勞動條件的一環"},{"start":2012.4599999999998,"end":2017.78,"text":"由於必須一體適用於全國不同規模的事業單位"},{"start":2017.78,"end":2021.86,"text":"所以他所規定的是一致性的最低標準"},{"start":2021.86,"end":2024.26,"text":"有關各項調整變動"},{"start":2024.26,"end":2027.86,"text":"都要多方面多角度的審慎考量"},{"start":2027.8999999999999,"end":2032.1799999999998,"text":"現階段勞動部持續運用多元管道"},{"start":2032.1799999999998,"end":2035.2199999999998,"text":"鼓勵勞顧雙方提高提繳率"},{"start":2035.2199999999998,"end":2038.82,"text":"例如我們已經跟金管會合作"},{"start":2038.82,"end":2043.2199999999998,"text":"把提高提繳率列入115年度"},{"start":2043.2199999999998,"end":2046.6599999999999,"text":"ESG評鑑的進階加分項目"},{"start":2046.6599999999999,"end":2048.8599999999997,"text":"也在國家獎項中"},{"start":2048.8599999999997,"end":2052.7799999999997,"text":"將勞退新制僱主提繳率超過6%"},{"start":2052.7799999999997,"end":2054.2599999999998,"text":"列為評選"},{"start":2054.86,"end":2057.7000000000003,"text":"評選標準額外加分的項目"},{"start":2057.7000000000003,"end":2061.86,"text":"鼓勵事業單位主動提高僱主的提繳率"},{"start":2061.86,"end":2065.34,"text":"同時也積極鼓勵透過團體協商"},{"start":2065.34,"end":2069.46,"text":"將優於法定提繳率納入團體協約"},{"start":2069.46,"end":2072.3,"text":"實質來提升勞工的退休金"},{"start":2073.5,"end":2077.18,"text":"在勞退就職的退休金保障的部分"},{"start":2077.18,"end":2081.46,"text":"勞動部透過勞工退休準備金的制度"},{"start":2081.46,"end":2085.7400000000002,"text":"要求事業單位依法按月足額"},{"start":2085.7400000000002,"end":2089.82,"text":"為適用勞退就職的勞工提撥退休準備金"},{"start":2089.82,"end":2093.62,"text":"並且透過補助各地方政府專責人力"},{"start":2093.62,"end":2097.94,"text":"主動輔導及查核事業單位依法提撥"},{"start":2097.94,"end":2100.2200000000003,"text":"截至114年底"},{"start":2100.2200000000003,"end":2102.42,"text":"也就是去年年底為止"},{"start":2102.46,"end":2105.14,"text":"全國事業單位足額提撥率"},{"start":2105.14,"end":2108.62,"text":"已經達到99.82%"},{"start":2108.62,"end":2113.94,"text":"各地方政府主動通知查訪跟催繳事業單位"},{"start":2113.94,"end":2117.38,"text":"去年約有6萬7千加次"},{"start":2117.38,"end":2120.26,"text":"對於為依法提撥的事業單位"},{"start":2120.26,"end":2124.14,"text":"我們也督促地方政府能夠依法裁處"},{"start":2124.14,"end":2128.3,"text":"確保就職勞工領取退休金的權益"},{"start":2128.34,"end":2133.46,"text":"事業單位動支勞工退休準備金專戶的給付結清金"},{"start":2133.46,"end":2140.2200000000003,"text":"必須要先經過勞顧代表所組成的勞工退休準備金監督委員會"},{"start":2140.2200000000003,"end":2146.82,"text":"以及台灣銀行確認是不是確實依法定標準給付退休金"},{"start":2146.82,"end":2151.2200000000003,"text":"如果有疑義我們就轉請各地方政府來審核"},{"start":2151.2200000000003,"end":2155.42,"text":"至於註銷專戶領回剩餘款的部分"},{"start":2155.46,"end":2161.34,"text":"勞工退休金準備金制度的目的是為了確保勞工退休的時候"},{"start":2161.34,"end":2163.58,"text":"可以領得到他的退休金"},{"start":2163.58,"end":2166.9,"text":"如果事業單位已經沒有就職勞工"},{"start":2166.9,"end":2171.46,"text":"可以申請領回專戶的剩餘款"},{"start":2171.46,"end":2176.78,"text":"那為了避免僱主為給付勞工資遣費跟退休金錢"},{"start":2176.78,"end":2179.94,"text":"就註銷了專戶領回剩餘款"},{"start":2179.94,"end":2184.98,"text":"所以我們也特別要求僱主應該檢具佐證的文件"},{"start":2185.02,"end":2190.82,"text":"我們也希望政府確認沒有基欠勞工退休金或資遣費"},{"start":2190.82,"end":2196.78,"text":"程序完備之後才主動將函轉台銀跟稅務機關"},{"start":2196.78,"end":2201.62,"text":"辦理後續的剩餘款領回節省僱主的工作時間"},{"start":2201.62,"end":2205.14,"text":"最後我要跟大家誠意的報告的是"},{"start":2205.14,"end":2212.26,"text":"保障勞工退休金老年經濟的安全是政府責無旁貸的義務"},{"start":2212.26,"end":2215.1400000000003,"text":"值值增加勞工退休金的方面"},{"start":2215.1400000000003,"end":2218.9,"text":"勞動部一向秉持著審慎的態度"},{"start":2218.9,"end":2221.46,"text":"持續聽取各界的意見"},{"start":2221.46,"end":2225.1400000000003,"text":"我們願意逐步的來檢討退休金制度"},{"start":2225.1400000000003,"end":2226.3,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":2240.17,"end":2241.21,"text":"謝謝黃次長"},{"start":2241.96,"end":2243,"text":"補充介紹"},{"start":2248.21,"end":2250.17,"text":"台灣工人鬥陣總工會"},{"start":2250.17,"end":2251.53,"text":"李市長何正嘉"},{"start":2254.83,"end":2257.79,"text":"台灣國際勞工協會研究員吳靜如"},{"start":2260.17,"end":2263.89,"text":"中華電信股份有限公司企業公會理事長鄧克聯"},{"start":2266.93,"end":2270.0499999999997,"text":"桃園市總工會理事游佩妤"},{"start":2272.33,"end":2275.97,"text":"中華民國勞資關係協進會研究員林昭貞"},{"start":2279.66,"end":2282.8199999999997,"text":"民產大學法律學院院長劉世豪"},{"start":2290,"end":2293.96,"text":"本次會議不會及學者專家所提供的書面"},{"start":2293.96,"end":2297.36,"text":"相關書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":2297.36,"end":2300.36,"text":"與會員發言前先宣告一下事項"},{"start":2300.36,"end":2304.64,"text":"學者專家及本院委員每位發言時間6分鐘"},{"start":2304.64,"end":2308.72,"text":"為簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席台右邊的發言台"},{"start":2309.49,"end":2313.5299999999997,"text":"原則上有學者專家先行一天到順序發言"},{"start":2313.5299999999997,"end":2315.6499999999996,"text":"委員如意要發言前到主席台登記"},{"start":2315.6499999999996,"end":2318.93,"text":"我們會議委員登記發言順序及學者專家發言順序"},{"start":2319.73,"end":2321.33,"text":"交錯安排進行"},{"start":2321.33,"end":2323.13,"text":"全部人影發言完畢後"},{"start":2323.13,"end":2325.41,"text":"再請行政協工做整體回應"},{"start":2325.41,"end":2326.69,"text":"暫定10點半"},{"start":2327.29,"end":2328.49,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":2328.49,"end":2331.77,"text":"現在請第一位越名正副理事長"},{"start":2344.37,"end":2347.89,"text":"各位委員各位在場的學者專家"},{"start":2347.89,"end":2350.89,"text":"媒體女士先生大家早安"},{"start":2350.89,"end":2354.93,"text":"我是宜蘭縣教師職業工會副理事長越名正老師"},{"start":2354.93,"end":2357.69,"text":"我也曾經是教育部公立學校"},{"start":2358.24,"end":2361.24,"text":"教職員退福基金建議會的委員"},{"start":2361.24,"end":2366.4799999999996,"text":"那非常感謝主席今天安排勞退新就職相關修法的公聽會"},{"start":2366.4799999999996,"end":2371.56,"text":"也並邀請宜蘭縣教師職業工會出席非常的感謝"},{"start":2371.56,"end":2373.64,"text":"那宜蘭縣教師職業工會"},{"start":2373.64,"end":2377.08,"text":"作為今年參與五一行動聯盟的一員"},{"start":2377.08,"end":2378.2799999999997,"text":"我們今天站在這裡"},{"start":2378.2799999999997,"end":2382.16,"text":"有些人或許會問教師公會公立學校的老師"},{"start":2382.16,"end":2384.72,"text":"為什麼要來關心勞退制度"},{"start":2384.72,"end":2386.56,"text":"那我們的答案非常明確"},{"start":2386.6,"end":2389.92,"text":"我相信也是今天各個團體的一件很重要的事情"},{"start":2389.92,"end":2392.04,"text":"退休制度是眾人之事"},{"start":2392.72,"end":2396.56,"text":"我們退休的保障絕對不應該因為職業身分的劃分"},{"start":2396.56,"end":2400.2799999999997,"text":"產生階級的落差或者是制度性的歧視"},{"start":2400.2799999999997,"end":2408.16,"text":"真正的世代共好要建立在不落下任何一個勞動者的基礎之上"},{"start":2408.16,"end":2409.4399999999996,"text":"我來自公立學校"},{"start":2409.4399999999996,"end":2413,"text":"但是真正在公立學校運作的基礎之上"},{"start":2413,"end":2414.9199999999996,"text":"我們走進台灣的校園"},{"start":2414.9199999999996,"end":2417.6,"text":"還有非常多的代理老師"},{"start":2417.6,"end":2420.08,"text":"兼任老師社團老師"},{"start":2420.08,"end":2421.4399999999996,"text":"教學資源人員"},{"start":2421.48,"end":2423.7200000000003,"text":"校保員行政約估的人員"},{"start":2423.7200000000003,"end":2425.44,"text":"還有公有的夥伴"},{"start":2425.44,"end":2427,"text":"我本身是總務主任"},{"start":2427,"end":2430,"text":"我這個月剛好幫我的公有先生"},{"start":2430,"end":2431.04,"text":"服務了26年"},{"start":2431.04,"end":2432.28,"text":"辦理他的退休"},{"start":2432.28,"end":2436.52,"text":"所以我對於整個勞退的想法是有非常深的感觸"},{"start":2436.52,"end":2441.96,"text":"我們必須要為這些在教育現場工作的非典型的教育勞動者"},{"start":2441.96,"end":2448.16,"text":"他們適用的勞工退休條例提供一些議題的倡議"},{"start":2448.16,"end":2449.4,"text":"好針對今天的提綱"},{"start":2449.44,"end":2451.92,"text":"我有三個主要的重點"},{"start":2451.92,"end":2456.32,"text":"第一個大家所關心的僱主那個強制提撥率"},{"start":2456.32,"end":2459.56,"text":"我們會支持五一行動聯盟最重要的主張"},{"start":2459.56,"end":2462.28,"text":"我們應該要趕快修法"},{"start":2462.28,"end":2465.52,"text":"勞動新制從2005年立法之後"},{"start":2465.52,"end":2469,"text":"當時說先求有再求好的承諾"},{"start":2470.2,"end":2471.8799999999997,"text":"到現在還是20年都沒有改變"},{"start":2471.8799999999997,"end":2472.8399999999997,"text":"只有6%"},{"start":2472.8399999999997,"end":2477.12,"text":"相較於我們現在公教的退輔"},{"start":2477.12,"end":2480.24,"text":"或者是構教個人專戶的提撥來看"},{"start":2480.24,"end":2484.8799999999997,"text":"政府作為這些僱主的提撥率大概是9.75"},{"start":2484.8799999999997,"end":2491,"text":"所以整整會比一般的勞工的僱主會高出3.75個百分比"},{"start":2491,"end":2493,"text":"所以在學校現場同樣是"},{"start":2493.61,"end":2494.69,"text":"確定敵撥制"},{"start":2494.69,"end":2497.01,"text":"我在處理工友的退休的時候就發現"},{"start":2497.01,"end":2499.17,"text":"我們好像我們相對的法定負擔"},{"start":2499.17,"end":2501.3300000000004,"text":"是相對來也是非常非常的低"},{"start":2501.3300000000004,"end":2504.21,"text":"所以我對我的工友他那麼辛苦的付出"},{"start":2504.21,"end":2508.25,"text":"可是他好像在退休保障會淪為是一個二等的公民"},{"start":2508.25,"end":2512.4500000000003,"text":"所以我們覺得立法院目前也很高興看到有非常多的委員"},{"start":2512.4500000000003,"end":2516.05,"text":"提出對於勞工退休條例第14條的修正的草案"},{"start":2516.05,"end":2518.4500000000003,"text":"我們希望這個部分一定要加速"},{"start":2519.06,"end":2520.1,"text":"同時第二個"},{"start":2520.77,"end":2521.97,"text":"提撥要平權"},{"start":2521.97,"end":2524.57,"text":"另外一個還要考慮的是私校的部分"},{"start":2524.57,"end":2526.4900000000002,"text":"我們用同樣的概念來看的時候"},{"start":2526.4900000000002,"end":2531.65,"text":"私校的老師他的私立學校法定退休金的提撥率是12"},{"start":2531.65,"end":2533.61,"text":"然後教職員負擔35%"},{"start":2533.61,"end":2536.89,"text":"學校32.5政府32.5"},{"start":2536.89,"end":2538.25,"text":"如果這樣去計算的時候"},{"start":2538.25,"end":2542.89,"text":"私校的僱主他的實質提撥率大概只有3.9"},{"start":2542.89,"end":2546.01,"text":"比我們剛剛的勞退的6%還更少"},{"start":2546.01,"end":2547.25,"text":"所以我們要藉這個場合"},{"start":2547.25,"end":2549.13,"text":"雖然這個可能不是未還"},{"start":2549.13,"end":2550.53,"text":"但是我覺得是國家整體"},{"start":2550.57,"end":2553.53,"text":"我剛剛一開始說的退休制度的保障"},{"start":2553.53,"end":2556.4100000000003,"text":"我們應該要再次的去呼籲立法院去推動"},{"start":2556.4100000000003,"end":2558.8900000000003,"text":"公私校的退府應該要一體化"},{"start":2558.8900000000003,"end":2560.2900000000004,"text":"我們也希望私校的"},{"start":2561.48,"end":2565.08,"text":"提撥率能夠比照公校提撥到15%"},{"start":2565.08,"end":2567.32,"text":"讓這個公私校之間的權益是平衡的"},{"start":2567.94,"end":2570.1800000000003,"text":"好那今天的第二個訴求是"},{"start":2570.1800000000003,"end":2571.7400000000002,"text":"我想要特別說的是"},{"start":2571.7400000000002,"end":2576.38,"text":"我想要請大院還有勞動部可以去思考一下"},{"start":2576.38,"end":2578.1800000000003,"text":"我們要打破制度的堵壘"},{"start":2579.93,"end":2582.69,"text":"讓各類的DC類的退休金"},{"start":2583.32,"end":2585.48,"text":"要有可惜性能夠增加"},{"start":2586.15,"end":2587.11,"text":"我覺得這是非常重要"},{"start":2587.11,"end":2588.35,"text":"尤其在教育現場"},{"start":2588.35,"end":2590.75,"text":"教育現場目前有三類很主要的"},{"start":2592.22,"end":2593.4199999999996,"text":"退休金制度都是DC"},{"start":2593.92,"end":2595.48,"text":"比如說現在的新制"},{"start":2596.07,"end":2597.11,"text":"公教的新制"},{"start":2597.11,"end":2598.23,"text":"私校的退府"},{"start":2598.23,"end":2601.3900000000003,"text":"還有剛剛說的勞退新制"},{"start":2601.3900000000003,"end":2604.4700000000003,"text":"他們的架構精神已經是同軌了"},{"start":2604.4700000000003,"end":2607.3100000000004,"text":"那我覺得在這一層的職業年金上"},{"start":2607.3100000000004,"end":2611.67,"text":"我們是不是能夠去思考年資可惜跟資產可惜"},{"start":2611.67,"end":2613.15,"text":"因為有非常多的老師"},{"start":2613.15,"end":2615.27,"text":"我看到身邊很年輕的朋友"},{"start":2615.27,"end":2617.27,"text":"他要變成正式老師之前"},{"start":2617.27,"end":2618.27,"text":"他可能在"},{"start":2618.92,"end":2620.56,"text":"他可能會有兩年到三年"},{"start":2620.56,"end":2623.36,"text":"甚至有更長的他是代理老師"},{"start":2623.36,"end":2626.2400000000002,"text":"這一段時間他是適用勞退新制"},{"start":2626.2400000000002,"end":2629.36,"text":"可是當他們辛辛苦苦變成正式老師的時候"},{"start":2629.36,"end":2633.12,"text":"不論他到進入公校的那個新制裡面"},{"start":2633.12,"end":2635.52,"text":"或者他到私立學校變成正式老師"},{"start":2635.52,"end":2638.8,"text":"他的這些過去的在勞退專戶裡面"},{"start":2638.8,"end":2640.7200000000003,"text":"累積多年的退休金"},{"start":2640.7200000000003,"end":2642.36,"text":"其實是被凍結的"},{"start":2642.36,"end":2643.44,"text":"是停滯的"},{"start":2643.44,"end":2645.08,"text":"尤其是公校是不行的"},{"start":2645.08,"end":2647.52,"text":"所以我們希望他沒有辦法合併使用"},{"start":2647.56,"end":2652.08,"text":"所以我覺得退休制度的規劃不應該"},{"start":2652.08,"end":2655.68,"text":"反而去限制了勞動者的他的職業流動"},{"start":2655.68,"end":2658.6,"text":"我們希望在各類的低息的年金"},{"start":2659.4,"end":2661.76,"text":"年資跟資產雙可惜"},{"start":2661.76,"end":2664.1600000000003,"text":"協助更多的工作代理老師"},{"start":2664.1600000000003,"end":2665.2000000000003,"text":"他在轉正的時候"},{"start":2665.2000000000003,"end":2668.2400000000002,"text":"原來的在勞退專戶的本金跟收益"},{"start":2668.2400000000002,"end":2671.92,"text":"可以無縫的轉到公校或者是私校的低息"},{"start":2671.92,"end":2673.56,"text":"繼續富力去滾存"},{"start":2673.56,"end":2676.4,"text":"我覺得這個對國家人才的"},{"start":2677.29,"end":2679.69,"text":"流動還有吸引人才是一個很重要的"},{"start":2679.69,"end":2681.45,"text":"可以思考的點"},{"start":2681.45,"end":2684.85,"text":"然後最後面我今天最後的一個點是"},{"start":2684.85,"end":2689.05,"text":"我認為說退休制度最重要的其實是誠信"},{"start":2690.3,"end":2693.0200000000004,"text":"任何的退休制度都是政府"},{"start":2693.0200000000004,"end":2697.5400000000004,"text":"僱主跟勞動者長期之間的信任契約"},{"start":2697.5400000000004,"end":2699.3,"text":"如果失去了誠信"},{"start":2701.07,"end":2703.3900000000003,"text":"在經美的精算報告"},{"start":2703.3900000000003,"end":2706.4300000000003,"text":"或者是利益在良善的制度設計"},{"start":2706.4300000000003,"end":2708.19,"text":"都可能化為烏有"},{"start":2708.19,"end":2710.67,"text":"剛剛說的勞退6%"},{"start":2710.67,"end":2713.23,"text":"在當年立法的承諾20年來沒有變"},{"start":2713.23,"end":2715.8300000000004,"text":"其實它已經是卡住了20年"},{"start":2715.8300000000004,"end":2718.3500000000004,"text":"同樣的對於公校的很多夥伴"},{"start":2718.3500000000004,"end":2720.3500000000004,"text":"政府在年間改革的時候"},{"start":2720.3500000000004,"end":2721.9900000000002,"text":"在李登輝總統的時代"},{"start":2721.9900000000002,"end":2723.67,"text":"1995年把"},{"start":2725.54,"end":2727.74,"text":"N級制改成除經制的時候"},{"start":2727.74,"end":2729.9,"text":"有要承諾的年資補償金"},{"start":2729.9,"end":2732.7,"text":"也在2017年的年改一筆勾銷"},{"start":2732.7,"end":2735.1,"text":"這個對於很多勞動者來講"},{"start":2735.1,"end":2737.26,"text":"他都會認為這是政府"},{"start":2737.26,"end":2740.26,"text":"毀棄的那個誠信"},{"start":2740.26,"end":2741.86,"text":"是一個毫無道理的做法"},{"start":2742.35,"end":2743.15,"text":"同樣的道理"},{"start":2744.74,"end":2747.7799999999997,"text":"我們面對公教的退伏的基金的缺口"},{"start":2747.7799999999997,"end":2748.58,"text":"政府也說要"},{"start":2749.36,"end":2751.1600000000003,"text":"政府的單位根據計算報告"},{"start":2751.79,"end":2753.39,"text":"四個部會做出來的決議"},{"start":2753.39,"end":2754.51,"text":"應該是以10年"},{"start":2756.08,"end":2758.44,"text":"可是最終行政院一句話說"},{"start":2758.44,"end":2759.64,"text":"我財政有困難"},{"start":2759.64,"end":2761.44,"text":"我們就把它延長是什麼"},{"start":2761.44,"end":2763.04,"text":"是用20年補補"},{"start":2763.04,"end":2766.48,"text":"所以這樣的一個缺口是持續的存在"},{"start":2766.48,"end":2768.7999999999997,"text":"因此我最後要再次呼籲"},{"start":2768.7999999999997,"end":2770.84,"text":"我們今天不管做任何的改革"},{"start":2770.84,"end":2773.64,"text":"最後我們希望退休的承諾"},{"start":2773.64,"end":2774.7599999999998,"text":"不要去被打折"},{"start":2774.7599999999998,"end":2777.7999999999997,"text":"社會的誠信不該被妥協"},{"start":2777.7999999999997,"end":2780.04,"text":"我們希望提撥要平權"},{"start":2780.04,"end":2782.36,"text":"沒有任何人士要當二等公民"},{"start":2782.36,"end":2784.84,"text":"我們希望DC的資產能夠隨人走"},{"start":2785.4,"end":2788.7200000000003,"text":"任何勞動者的辛勞不會白費"},{"start":2788.7200000000003,"end":2791.88,"text":"政府或僱主的承諾不要被打折"},{"start":2791.88,"end":2794.48,"text":"關於年資補償金應該要儘速訪華"},{"start":2794.48,"end":2796.84,"text":"最後所有的制度的討論"},{"start":2796.84,"end":2800.1600000000003,"text":"都應該基於尊重理性科學的數據"},{"start":2800.1600000000003,"end":2801.2400000000002,"text":"然後對於"},{"start":2802.16,"end":2802.68,"text":"剝不得"},{"start":2803.36,"end":2805.04,"text":"部分的金額一定要足額"},{"start":2805.04,"end":2807.32,"text":"好以上的發言就教大家謝謝"},{"start":2807.98,"end":2809.7,"text":"謝謝葉明正副理事長"},{"start":2811.68,"end":2814.44,"text":"淡江大學蔡明芳教授"},{"start":2825.01,"end":2827.61,"text":"主席還有各位委員"},{"start":2827.61,"end":2829.65,"text":"還有各位這個政府的代表"},{"start":2829.65,"end":2832.21,"text":"還有各位工商的產業"},{"start":2832.21,"end":2834.57,"text":"廠商跟勞工的代表大家好"},{"start":2834.57,"end":2837.4100000000003,"text":"那我想我今天針對主題"},{"start":2837.4100000000003,"end":2839.21,"text":"要來做一些發言"},{"start":2839.21,"end":2842.29,"text":"其實到底這種退休金"},{"start":2842.29,"end":2844.69,"text":"大家如果想要把6%往上提"},{"start":2844.69,"end":2847.33,"text":"那就有很多委員提出來的版本"},{"start":2847.33,"end":2848.69,"text":"就是說要針對規模"},{"start":2848.69,"end":2851.33,"text":"針對這個員工的年資"},{"start":2851.33,"end":2854.29,"text":"然後來做一些調整的比例"},{"start":2854.33,"end":2857.65,"text":"我想增加勞工的退休保障"},{"start":2857.65,"end":2859.21,"text":"在現在的社會"},{"start":2859.21,"end":2861.85,"text":"應該不會只有勞工想做"},{"start":2861.85,"end":2864.69,"text":"因為很多廠商在座的代表"},{"start":2864.69,"end":2866.61,"text":"應該都知道現在市場上"},{"start":2866.61,"end":2868.5299999999997,"text":"真的面臨很嚴重的缺工問題"},{"start":2868.5299999999997,"end":2870.65,"text":"這個缺工問題是來自於少子化"},{"start":2870.65,"end":2874.29,"text":"來自於青年就業形態整個改變"},{"start":2874.29,"end":2876.41,"text":"你如果有年輕的就業員工"},{"start":2876.41,"end":2879.77,"text":"你遇到跟你年紀同樣的這個管理者"},{"start":2879.77,"end":2881.65,"text":"你一定說你有沒有一個氣息"},{"start":2881.65,"end":2883.37,"text":"大家的就業文化就不一樣了"},{"start":2883.37,"end":2884.37,"text":"所以你的管理"},{"start":2884.37,"end":2886.21,"text":"跟他想要的工作環境"},{"start":2886.21,"end":2887.69,"text":"本來就有所差異"},{"start":2887.69,"end":2890.89,"text":"找人本來就一件很懶的事"},{"start":2890.89,"end":2893.45,"text":"那現在你可以增加他的保障"},{"start":2893.45,"end":2894.33,"text":"這是一種方式"},{"start":2894.33,"end":2895.5699999999997,"text":"退休金只是"},{"start":2895.5699999999997,"end":2898.93,"text":"我在算我子矮整個所得其中的一個部分"},{"start":2898.93,"end":2900.81,"text":"那如果我的薪資可以增加"},{"start":2900.81,"end":2902.5299999999997,"text":"退休金少一點點"},{"start":2902.5299999999997,"end":2904.65,"text":"或退休金可以增加薪資少一點點"},{"start":2904.65,"end":2906.37,"text":"我想每一個人會有"},{"start":2906.37,"end":2909.0899999999997,"text":"每一個人不同的這個選擇跟權衡"},{"start":2909.0899999999997,"end":2910.0499999999997,"text":"所以第一個"},{"start":2910.0499999999997,"end":2912.17,"text":"如果你要用企業規模"},{"start":2912.17,"end":2914.53,"text":"來做為一個提繳比率的話"},{"start":2914.53,"end":2916.4900000000002,"text":"他會出現一個問題"},{"start":2916.4900000000002,"end":2918.77,"text":"就是第一個就是說我剛講的"},{"start":2918.77,"end":2919.81,"text":"對企業來講"},{"start":2919.81,"end":2922.01,"text":"我一年要給你勞工多少錢"},{"start":2922.01,"end":2924.05,"text":"其實算好的"},{"start":2924.05,"end":2925.9300000000003,"text":"我一年我要多少獲利"},{"start":2925.9300000000003,"end":2927.21,"text":"我也算好的"},{"start":2927.21,"end":2929.89,"text":"就好比你們這個工會也好"},{"start":2929.89,"end":2931.17,"text":"或老闆也好"},{"start":2931.17,"end":2933.13,"text":"他在大家彼此談判的時候"},{"start":2933.13,"end":2935.33,"text":"一定說我至少要拿多少"},{"start":2935.33,"end":2936.25,"text":"至少拿多少"},{"start":2936.25,"end":2938.37,"text":"這個就是你心裡有底的東西"},{"start":2938.37,"end":2940.69,"text":"所以你現在要去提高退休金"},{"start":2940.73,"end":2941.93,"text":"那他有可能就會去"},{"start":2941.93,"end":2943.65,"text":"在其他地方把它降下來"},{"start":2943.65,"end":2945.73,"text":"所以他是不是真的會提高這個保障"},{"start":2945.73,"end":2947.37,"text":"我覺得這個是大家要去思考"},{"start":2947.37,"end":2948.65,"text":"當然大家會說"},{"start":2948.65,"end":2949.85,"text":"6%是不是太少"},{"start":2949.85,"end":2951.21,"text":"這個當然是可以討論"},{"start":2951.21,"end":2952.89,"text":"那第二個就是說"},{"start":2952.89,"end":2955.21,"text":"我覺得不要動不動就是說用規模比"},{"start":2955.21,"end":2956.89,"text":"不要什麼都用規模比"},{"start":2956.89,"end":2959.37,"text":"任何政策一提出來一定有好有壞"},{"start":2959.37,"end":2960.9700000000003,"text":"我沒有說這樣一定不好"},{"start":2960.9700000000003,"end":2961.9700000000003,"text":"但是我跟你講"},{"start":2961.9700000000003,"end":2963.25,"text":"它可能不好的地方"},{"start":2963.25,"end":2964.57,"text":"比如說為什麼大企業"},{"start":2964.57,"end":2965.9700000000003,"text":"退休的保障就要比較多"},{"start":2966.61,"end":2968.01,"text":"大家不是要為勞工"},{"start":2968.01,"end":2969.3700000000003,"text":"提出更多的保障嗎"},{"start":2969.3700000000003,"end":2970.77,"text":"為什麼大企業"},{"start":2970.77,"end":2972.4900000000002,"text":"就要有比較多的保障"},{"start":2972.4900000000002,"end":2973.3300000000004,"text":"憑什麼"},{"start":2973.3300000000004,"end":2975.13,"text":"而且你在大企業裡面"},{"start":2975.13,"end":2977.53,"text":"你本來你就是這個"},{"start":2977.53,"end":2979.01,"text":"有比較高的薪水"},{"start":2979.01,"end":2980.13,"text":"比較好的環境"},{"start":2980.13,"end":2981.73,"text":"你又有比較好的退休生活"},{"start":2981.73,"end":2983.01,"text":"你是在照顧勞工嗎"},{"start":2983.01,"end":2984.8500000000004,"text":"這個大家好好想想看"},{"start":2984.8500000000004,"end":2985.8500000000004,"text":"就是說大家"},{"start":2985.8500000000004,"end":2986.8900000000003,"text":"當然規模比"},{"start":2986.8900000000003,"end":2988.69,"text":"這個是大家最容易想出來"},{"start":2988.69,"end":2990.25,"text":"這我完全可以理解"},{"start":2990.25,"end":2991.77,"text":"我們在學校也最容易"},{"start":2991.77,"end":2993.17,"text":"提出一些這種"},{"start":2993.17,"end":2994.53,"text":"聽起來好像有點道理"},{"start":2994.53,"end":2996.4500000000003,"text":"但是其實不合理的東西"},{"start":2996.49,"end":2997.89,"text":"所以如果你這樣提的話"},{"start":2997.89,"end":2999.0899999999997,"text":"就會發生什麼事"},{"start":2999.0899999999997,"end":3000.45,"text":"你修法可能就會"},{"start":3000.45,"end":3003.0099999999998,"text":"擴大不同企業的什麼"},{"start":3003.0099999999998,"end":3005.0899999999997,"text":"勞工他們的退休福利"},{"start":3005.0899999999997,"end":3006.6099999999997,"text":"這時候會發生什麼事"},{"start":3006.6099999999997,"end":3009.1299999999997,"text":"大家不是在擔心K型經濟嗎"},{"start":3009.1299999999997,"end":3010.0099999999998,"text":"你是台灣"},{"start":3010.0099999999998,"end":3012.21,"text":"你是覺得台灣被K的不夠嗎"},{"start":3012.21,"end":3013.5699999999997,"text":"如果你擔心的是"},{"start":3013.5699999999997,"end":3015.33,"text":"台灣的K型經濟的發展"},{"start":3015.33,"end":3017.21,"text":"那你這樣的提法不就是變成"},{"start":3017.7799999999997,"end":3019.58,"text":"會更嚴重的K型經濟嗎"},{"start":3019.58,"end":3020.4599999999996,"text":"我覺得這是第一個"},{"start":3020.4599999999996,"end":3021.8599999999997,"text":"大家從規模比來看"},{"start":3021.8599999999997,"end":3023.58,"text":"一定要去好好思考的"},{"start":3023.58,"end":3026.2599999999998,"text":"那第二個其實就是員工的年資"},{"start":3026.2599999999998,"end":3027.66,"text":"我想再說這裡有很多"},{"start":3027.66,"end":3029.2599999999998,"text":"年輕的記者 年輕的朋友"},{"start":3030.13,"end":3032.05,"text":"為什麼年輕人的退休提撥"},{"start":3032.05,"end":3033.01,"text":"就要比較少"},{"start":3033.01,"end":3034.57,"text":"我的薪資本來就比較少"},{"start":3034.57,"end":3035.53,"text":"一樣用6%"},{"start":3035.53,"end":3036.9300000000003,"text":"我本來就比較少"},{"start":3036.9300000000003,"end":3038.8900000000003,"text":"剛剛前面的先進已經提到"},{"start":3038.8900000000003,"end":3039.61,"text":"為什麼退休"},{"start":3039.61,"end":3041.3700000000003,"text":"你要有職業別的差異"},{"start":3041.3700000000003,"end":3043.8900000000003,"text":"為什麼要有你比較菜味比較重"},{"start":3043.8900000000003,"end":3046.05,"text":"你菜味比較不重的差異"},{"start":3046.05,"end":3046.9300000000003,"text":"不合理"},{"start":3046.9300000000003,"end":3048.81,"text":"大家一起到最後"},{"start":3048.81,"end":3050.57,"text":"65歲那一天退休"},{"start":3050.57,"end":3052.33,"text":"面對的就是65歲"},{"start":3052.33,"end":3053.57,"text":"那時候的身體"},{"start":3053.57,"end":3054.61,"text":"那時候的環境"},{"start":3054.61,"end":3056.01,"text":"你要做的事情"},{"start":3056.01,"end":3057.01,"text":"那為什麼我年輕"},{"start":3057.01,"end":3058.65,"text":"我的退休金就要比較少"},{"start":3059.35,"end":3060.35,"text":"合理性在哪裡"},{"start":3060.35,"end":3062.23,"text":"我覺得這個是大家要去思考的"},{"start":3062.8,"end":3064,"text":"我換個方式講"},{"start":3064,"end":3065.32,"text":"如果要支錢的時候"},{"start":3065.95,"end":3067.0699999999997,"text":"年輕的先支錢"},{"start":3067.0699999999997,"end":3068.83,"text":"還是資深的先支錢"},{"start":3068.83,"end":3069.91,"text":"照這種邏輯"},{"start":3069.91,"end":3071.19,"text":"年輕的先支錢"},{"start":3071.19,"end":3072.31,"text":"資深的晚一點"},{"start":3072.31,"end":3072.83,"text":"憑什麼"},{"start":3073.53,"end":3074.73,"text":"資深的要照顧家裡"},{"start":3074.73,"end":3075.53,"text":"壓力就比較重"},{"start":3075.53,"end":3076.65,"text":"年輕的就不重嗎"},{"start":3076.65,"end":3078.4100000000003,"text":"年輕的路更長"},{"start":3078.4100000000003,"end":3080.8100000000004,"text":"所以我覺得大家在想這種事情的時候"},{"start":3080.8100000000004,"end":3081.9700000000003,"text":"要好好想清楚"},{"start":3081.9700000000003,"end":3084.3300000000004,"text":"不要抓一個簡單的指標"},{"start":3084.3300000000004,"end":3086.17,"text":"有時候一個簡單的指標"},{"start":3086.17,"end":3087.17,"text":"讓你一想"},{"start":3087.17,"end":3088.61,"text":"你就覺得好像很合理"},{"start":3088.61,"end":3090.17,"text":"但其實它背後會產生"},{"start":3090.17,"end":3092.3300000000004,"text":"很多的負面效應"},{"start":3092.3300000000004,"end":3094.01,"text":"我覺得這個最後不見得"},{"start":3094.01,"end":3096.73,"text":"為勞工提供比較好的保障"},{"start":3096.73,"end":3098.57,"text":"那所以第三點是什麼"},{"start":3099.3,"end":3100.34,"text":"大家看一下"},{"start":3100.34,"end":3103.5800000000004,"text":"現在有資深員工的比重的是什麼樣的企業"},{"start":3105.88,"end":3108.2000000000003,"text":"就是年輕人比較少進去的企業"},{"start":3108.2000000000003,"end":3109.84,"text":"年輕人為什麼比較少進去"},{"start":3109.84,"end":3110.92,"text":"請沒人 難請人"},{"start":3112.48,"end":3114.52,"text":"這個時候你如果再把退休金"},{"start":3114.52,"end":3115.72,"text":"還拿給我管起來"},{"start":3115.72,"end":3117.4,"text":"我告訴你加速退場"},{"start":3117.4,"end":3118.84,"text":"這是對退休有保障"},{"start":3118.84,"end":3120.4,"text":"還是對退休沒保障"},{"start":3120.4,"end":3123,"text":"我覺得大家可以好好想清楚"},{"start":3123,"end":3124.6,"text":"好 所以最後在這裡"},{"start":3124.6,"end":3126.36,"text":"我就要講的就是說"},{"start":3126.36,"end":3128.6,"text":"我想這個企業的規模越大"},{"start":3128.6,"end":3130.2,"text":"或就業時間的長短"},{"start":3130.2,"end":3132.52,"text":"你把它拿來當作這個退休金"},{"start":3132.52,"end":3133.28,"text":"就會有問題"},{"start":3133.28,"end":3135.36,"text":"如果你覺得資深的員工"},{"start":3135.36,"end":3136.36,"text":"或大企業員工"},{"start":3136.36,"end":3137.8,"text":"他退休保障要拉高"},{"start":3137.8,"end":3139.56,"text":"那反過來講就是小企業員工"},{"start":3139.56,"end":3141.4,"text":"年輕的員工退休就不足"},{"start":3141.56,"end":3144.56,"text":"那你不是要為所有的員工爭取福利嗎"},{"start":3144.56,"end":3146.2400000000002,"text":"那你到底為誰爭取福利"},{"start":3146.2400000000002,"end":3147.76,"text":"還是為你自己爭取福利"},{"start":3147.76,"end":3149.08,"text":"這個要想清楚"},{"start":3149.08,"end":3150.32,"text":"那如果你這樣做的話"},{"start":3150.32,"end":3152.2000000000003,"text":"就會跟我們提案一會有問題"},{"start":3152.2000000000003,"end":3154.04,"text":"提案一不就是因為擔心"},{"start":3154.04,"end":3156.76,"text":"少子化會擔心財務逆差嗎"},{"start":3156.76,"end":3158.1600000000003,"text":"你這樣做的方式"},{"start":3158.1600000000003,"end":3159.92,"text":"就是在製造財務逆差"},{"start":3159.92,"end":3161.2400000000002,"text":"就不用再評估了"},{"start":3161.2400000000002,"end":3163.56,"text":"你的財務逆差一定進一步的擴大"},{"start":3163.56,"end":3165,"text":"年輕的變少"},{"start":3165,"end":3166.64,"text":"然後資深的變多"},{"start":3166.64,"end":3168.04,"text":"那資深的又提更多"},{"start":3168.04,"end":3169.64,"text":"年輕的又繳更少"},{"start":3169.64,"end":3171.12,"text":"這怎麼做得下去"},{"start":3171.16,"end":3172.04,"text":"我想第一個提案"},{"start":3172.04,"end":3174.3199999999997,"text":"我想就變成不用討論了"},{"start":3174.3199999999997,"end":3175.64,"text":"所以最後我覺得"},{"start":3175.64,"end":3177.92,"text":"其實提高勞工的退休福祉"},{"start":3177.92,"end":3179.72,"text":"這個是最基本的保障"},{"start":3179.72,"end":3181.2,"text":"這本來就應該要做的"},{"start":3181.2,"end":3182.44,"text":"但是其實更重要的"},{"start":3182.44,"end":3183.7999999999997,"text":"我在這裡因為我念經濟"},{"start":3183.7999999999997,"end":3185.04,"text":"我還是要呼籲大家"},{"start":3185.04,"end":3186.68,"text":"我覺得改善企業的經營環境"},{"start":3186.68,"end":3188.04,"text":"還是重要"},{"start":3188.04,"end":3189.04,"text":"我想我就列在這裡"},{"start":3189.04,"end":3190.08,"text":"我就不再一一念"},{"start":3190.08,"end":3191.72,"text":"我最後只講一件事情"},{"start":3191.72,"end":3193.2799999999997,"text":"退休勞工面對的是社會"},{"start":3193.2799999999997,"end":3194.08,"text":"不是產業"},{"start":3194.86,"end":3196.1400000000003,"text":"他面對的是社會"},{"start":3196.1400000000003,"end":3198.6200000000003,"text":"所以不要動不動就用規模級別"},{"start":3198.6200000000003,"end":3202.02,"text":"用這種年輕資深或資淺來做區分"},{"start":3202.02,"end":3203.2200000000003,"text":"其實不是那麼合理"},{"start":3203.2200000000003,"end":3203.5800000000004,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3205,"end":3206.96,"text":"謝謝蔡銘芳教授"},{"start":3206.96,"end":3209.2400000000002,"text":"接下來請林業群召委"},{"start":3218.8199999999997,"end":3220.46,"text":"主席還有各位專家學者"},{"start":3220.46,"end":3221.8199999999997,"text":"還有委員"},{"start":3221.8199999999997,"end":3226.46,"text":"還有在目前在均銜樓101外賓的"},{"start":3226.46,"end":3229.98,"text":"我們辛苦的勞工朋友們"},{"start":3229.98,"end":3233.2599999999998,"text":"那也感謝你們為台灣經濟跟社會安定"},{"start":3233.2599999999998,"end":3234.62,"text":"撐起一片天"},{"start":3234.62,"end":3236.66,"text":"我覺得在五一勞動節的時候"},{"start":3236.66,"end":3237.38,"text":"你們很辛苦"},{"start":3237.38,"end":3239.66,"text":"今天還是很辛苦的來到這邊"},{"start":3240.53,"end":3241.89,"text":"我覺得勞工有壓力"},{"start":3241.89,"end":3243.57,"text":"大家政府就有責任"},{"start":3243.57,"end":3245.41,"text":"那勞工有不滿的話"},{"start":3245.41,"end":3248.85,"text":"我覺得政府應該要來出來面對"},{"start":3248.85,"end":3250.97,"text":"不能讓人家手上接頭"},{"start":3250.97,"end":3252.69,"text":"然後沒有辦法得到回應"},{"start":3252.69,"end":3255.61,"text":"尤其大家很關心的是退休之後"},{"start":3255.61,"end":3256.57,"text":"不要不安心"},{"start":3256.57,"end":3259.41,"text":"那因為是工作一輩子"},{"start":3259.41,"end":3261.49,"text":"也不要等到老的時候才發現"},{"start":3261.49,"end":3263.21,"text":"你少了很多保障"},{"start":3263.21,"end":3264.57,"text":"是有工作的人的話"},{"start":3264.57,"end":3267.57,"text":"就應該有基本的保險"},{"start":3267.57,"end":3269.69,"text":"所以我們今天就要來談這個"},{"start":3269.73,"end":3271.93,"text":"大家我們都知道的確沒有錯"},{"start":3271.93,"end":3274.57,"text":"就是台灣大概去年"},{"start":3274.57,"end":3277.61,"text":"是進入到超高齡的社會"},{"start":3277.61,"end":3281.37,"text":"那少子跟我們的高齡夾雜的是"},{"start":3281.37,"end":3283.9700000000003,"text":"雙重老化的一個過程"},{"start":3283.9700000000003,"end":3285.01,"text":"那二零二八"},{"start":3285.01,"end":3287.57,"text":"我們大概就進入到工作年齡"},{"start":3287.57,"end":3289.77,"text":"人口總人口的比例"},{"start":3289.77,"end":3292.65,"text":"會跌破到三分之二以下"},{"start":3292.65,"end":3293.85,"text":"所以不再"},{"start":3294.58,"end":3298.46,"text":"有對經濟發展有利的人口結構的時候"},{"start":3298.46,"end":3299.46,"text":"那當然我覺得"},{"start":3301.15,"end":3301.9100000000003,"text":"整個的"},{"start":3304.96,"end":3307,"text":"整個的財政都要去思考"},{"start":3307,"end":3309.52,"text":"不過我認為目前政府採取的"},{"start":3309.52,"end":3312.04,"text":"撥補方式事實上是必要措施"},{"start":3312.04,"end":3314.96,"text":"但撥補不能解決勞工的根本問題"},{"start":3314.96,"end":3316.8,"text":"是暫時的做法"},{"start":3316.8,"end":3318.36,"text":"因為之後撥補的金額"},{"start":3318.36,"end":3319.56,"text":"大概只有越來越高"},{"start":3319.56,"end":3320.48,"text":"因為為什麼"},{"start":3320.48,"end":3321.8,"text":"因為領的人越來越多"},{"start":3322.44,"end":3324.48,"text":"領的越來越久"},{"start":3324.48,"end":3326.36,"text":"繳的人確實越來越少"},{"start":3326.36,"end":3328.52,"text":"而且我們繳的金額"},{"start":3328.52,"end":3330.8,"text":"事實上是成長有限"},{"start":3330.8,"end":3332.96,"text":"因為當政府在撥補越高的時候"},{"start":3332.96,"end":3336.36,"text":"當然也會壓縮到其他的空間"},{"start":3336.94,"end":3339.34,"text":"所以去年立法院"},{"start":3339.34,"end":3342.1400000000003,"text":"已經通過勞工保險條例的修正"},{"start":3343.1400000000003,"end":3345.3,"text":"讓我們的撥補制度入法"},{"start":3345.3,"end":3346.98,"text":"也明定政府"},{"start":3346.98,"end":3350.2200000000003,"text":"要負擔最後的支付責任"},{"start":3350.2200000000003,"end":3352.58,"text":"那也是有跨黨派的"},{"start":3352.58,"end":3353.86,"text":"共識的一個政策"},{"start":3353.86,"end":3356.58,"text":"同時也讓一千多萬的勞工"},{"start":3356.58,"end":3358.7000000000003,"text":"事實上可以對我們的勞保基金"},{"start":3358.7000000000003,"end":3359.9,"text":"有更多的信心"},{"start":3359.9,"end":3362.3,"text":"可是我要強調的是"},{"start":3362.3,"end":3364.94,"text":"另外除了提供保障"},{"start":3364.94,"end":3366.78,"text":"這修法除了提供保障以外"},{"start":3366.78,"end":3368.6600000000003,"text":"同時也明定政府要每三年"},{"start":3368.6600000000003,"end":3371.7400000000002,"text":"來進行全面的財務的機制"},{"start":3371.7400000000002,"end":3373.46,"text":"不過也要提醒是"},{"start":3373.46,"end":3377.1800000000003,"text":"撥補不是我們的勞保財政問題的解方"},{"start":3377.1800000000003,"end":3378.86,"text":"那今天"},{"start":3378.86,"end":3381.5400000000004,"text":"今年預計撥補大概一千三百億"},{"start":3381.5400000000004,"end":3385.46,"text":"七年來政府大概撥補了五千一百七十億元"},{"start":3385.46,"end":3387.3,"text":"那當然學者也提醒是說"},{"start":3387.3,"end":3390.6600000000003,"text":"撥補只是一個持續擴大的財務缺口當中"},{"start":3390.6600000000003,"end":3392.6600000000003,"text":"先補這幾年的洞"},{"start":3392.6600000000003,"end":3395.0600000000004,"text":"不是長治久安的辦法"},{"start":3395.06,"end":3395.62,"text":"那"},{"start":3396.06,"end":3396.98,"text":"因為我們當然知道"},{"start":3396.98,"end":3401.2599999999998,"text":"勞保事實上是世代互助風險風單的社會保險"},{"start":3401.2599999999998,"end":3403.54,"text":"那勞保制度的永續"},{"start":3403.54,"end":3408.18,"text":"最終還是要回到年金的財務結構跟制度上來討論"},{"start":3408.18,"end":3410.1,"text":"我認為有三個方向"},{"start":3410.1,"end":3412.86,"text":"我覺得勞動部要進一步的研擬"},{"start":3412.86,"end":3414.9,"text":"因為上次在五一勞動節"},{"start":3414.9,"end":3415.98,"text":"他們走上街頭的時候"},{"start":3415.98,"end":3417.66,"text":"我就已經跟勞動部講說"},{"start":3417.66,"end":3419.46,"text":"你們要開始去做"},{"start":3419.46,"end":3421.54,"text":"那之後我也收到你們的資料"},{"start":3421.54,"end":3424.18,"text":"可是我對這些資料我還是不能滿意"},{"start":3424.18,"end":3425.34,"text":"所以我覺得你們要研擬"},{"start":3425.34,"end":3426.1000000000004,"text":"第一個"},{"start":3426.1000000000004,"end":3427.1400000000003,"text":"你們"},{"start":3427.1400000000003,"end":3429.98,"text":"因為我們的保險費率上限是12%"},{"start":3429.98,"end":3433.42,"text":"可是勞保的收支相等的那個平衡費率"},{"start":3433.42,"end":3436.02,"text":"事實上是17.9%"},{"start":3436.02,"end":3437.82,"text":"所以是不是要去討論我們的勞保"},{"start":3437.82,"end":3440.38,"text":"保險費率跟給付的調整"},{"start":3440.38,"end":3442.6200000000003,"text":"這個第一個你要去想"},{"start":3442.6200000000003,"end":3445.78,"text":"第二個是我們的投保薪資上限的調整"},{"start":3445.78,"end":3449.94,"text":"因為投保最高級距是四萬五千八百元"},{"start":3449.94,"end":3455.58,"text":"大勞工有371萬人"},{"start":3458.08,"end":3460.72,"text":"全體投保人數的35.1%"},{"start":3460.72,"end":3462.84,"text":"可是我們自己看平均總薪資"},{"start":3462.84,"end":3468.2799999999997,"text":"已到達了五萬七千兩百二十三元"},{"start":3468.2799999999997,"end":3470.36,"text":"那表示三分之一的勞工薪水"},{"start":3470.36,"end":3472.32,"text":"是超過你最高級距的"},{"start":3472.32,"end":3475.68,"text":"那你要去研議討論這個課題"},{"start":3475.68,"end":3479.24,"text":"第三個可不可以考慮是稅收的改革"},{"start":3479.24,"end":3481.7599999999998,"text":"充實我們的財政的一個來源"},{"start":3481.7599999999998,"end":3483.56,"text":"比如增加富人稅或是財富稅"},{"start":3483.56,"end":3485.68,"text":"來作為支撐社會保險的重要財源"},{"start":3485.72,"end":3490.2799999999997,"text":"像租稅 銀索稅 屯屋稅 遺產稅的提高"},{"start":3490.2799999999997,"end":3492.6,"text":"這個都要作為你要去思考"},{"start":3492.6,"end":3494.6,"text":"否則一直在撥補的話"},{"start":3494.6,"end":3498.08,"text":"大概我剛剛講已經不是長治久安的方法"},{"start":3499.3399999999997,"end":3500.98,"text":"再來我想要談的是"},{"start":3500.98,"end":3504.2999999999997,"text":"我們大家討論的那個勞退制度的問題"},{"start":3504.2999999999997,"end":3507.66,"text":"這也就是大家很關心的退休金是否足夠"},{"start":3507.66,"end":3509.02,"text":"因為年紀越大"},{"start":3509.02,"end":3510.98,"text":"當他離開職場的時候"},{"start":3510.98,"end":3512.98,"text":"他當然希望他要有個穩定生活"},{"start":3512.98,"end":3514.66,"text":"他已經工作了這麼多年"},{"start":3514.66,"end":3516.46,"text":"那不能給他穩定的生活"},{"start":3516.46,"end":3519.66,"text":"那他前面的為台灣社會付出的"},{"start":3519.66,"end":3523.42,"text":"難道不應該領有他該有的一個保障嗎"},{"start":3523.42,"end":3526.2999999999997,"text":"所以現行的我們的勞退的規定"},{"start":3526.34,"end":3530.0600000000004,"text":"僱主有義務為勞工我們的提撥退休金"},{"start":3530.0600000000004,"end":3533.6600000000003,"text":"而因為民定不得低於原本的工資的6%"},{"start":3533.6600000000003,"end":3534.6600000000003,"text":"可是我們看起來"},{"start":3534.6600000000003,"end":3538.5800000000004,"text":"9成9的企業僱主就是剛剛好這個下限"},{"start":3538.5800000000004,"end":3539.7000000000003,"text":"也就是6%"},{"start":3539.7000000000003,"end":3542.78,"text":"原本立法設計師上至少提撥6%"},{"start":3542.78,"end":3546.98,"text":"結果搞到最後大家僱主只提撥6%"},{"start":3546.98,"end":3550.42,"text":"所以我也要提行勞動部"},{"start":3550.42,"end":3553.54,"text":"因為之前在講這個課題的時候"},{"start":3553.58,"end":3557.18,"text":"都說要審慎評估持續收集意見"},{"start":3557.18,"end":3558.02,"text":"那我也要問說"},{"start":3558.02,"end":3559.7799999999997,"text":"那到底有沒有具體的作為"},{"start":3559.7799999999997,"end":3562.3,"text":"那收集的狀況是什麼"},{"start":3562.3,"end":3563.98,"text":"因為學者已經警示"},{"start":3563.98,"end":3564.94,"text":"我們提"},{"start":3564.94,"end":3568.3,"text":"就是說你調高僱主的那個提繳率的話"},{"start":3568.3,"end":3571.06,"text":"可能會直接轉交到勞工的薪資身上"},{"start":3572.37,"end":3575.09,"text":"甚至現在狀況就是有人把6%"},{"start":3575.09,"end":3578.85,"text":"就還是放在勞工的薪水裡面內涵"},{"start":3578.85,"end":3581.61,"text":"這我覺得跟當初立法的用意"},{"start":3581.61,"end":3582.61,"text":"根本就不同"},{"start":3582.61,"end":3584.0499999999997,"text":"所以勞動部是不是要更積極"},{"start":3584.0499999999997,"end":3585.93,"text":"跟勞資雙方來對話"},{"start":3585.93,"end":3589.5299999999997,"text":"並搭配獎勵輔導措施來推動"},{"start":3589.5299999999997,"end":3591.17,"text":"才不會讓好意的政策"},{"start":3591.17,"end":3593.0099999999998,"text":"反而犧牲了勞工的權益"},{"start":3593.0099999999998,"end":3595.45,"text":"我已經多次呼籲勞動部"},{"start":3595.45,"end":3599.5699999999997,"text":"儘速提出分年試算跟產業衝擊的評估"},{"start":3599.5699999999997,"end":3602.21,"text":"不要再用持續收集意見"},{"start":3602.21,"end":3605.77,"text":"審慎評估來迴避這個問題"},{"start":3605.77,"end":3607.45,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":3607.45,"end":3610.4900000000002,"text":"勞資雙方都需要看到具體的數據跟影響"},{"start":3610.4900000000002,"end":3614.33,"text":"評估才能夠繼續有辦法繼續討論下去"},{"start":3614.33,"end":3616.05,"text":"那另外也就是"},{"start":3616.05,"end":3618.93,"text":"勞動部要積極推動自體的政策"},{"start":3618.93,"end":3620.05,"text":"雖然利益仰散"},{"start":3620.05,"end":3623.89,"text":"但是我比較擔心是逆分配的隱憂"},{"start":3623.89,"end":3624.57,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":3624.57,"end":3626.05,"text":"因為你看最新的數據"},{"start":3626.05,"end":3631.09,"text":"115年5月全體提繳人數的786萬人當中"},{"start":3631.13,"end":3636.4500000000003,"text":"有19.3%的勞工是參與我們個人的志願的提繳"},{"start":3636.4500000000003,"end":3637.57,"text":"為什麼會是這樣"},{"start":3637.57,"end":3640.05,"text":"最後就是有能力的才有辦法"},{"start":3640.05,"end":3645.01,"text":"那你的這個免稅金額是不是又是用在有能力的人身上"},{"start":3645.01,"end":3647.21,"text":"如果這種逆分配的狀況"},{"start":3647.21,"end":3648.8500000000004,"text":"你沒有辦法解決的話"},{"start":3648.8500000000004,"end":3653.13,"text":"那最後是不是真的還事實上是沒有辦法讓"},{"start":3653.7599999999998,"end":3657.9199999999996,"text":"這個政策事實上是真的照顧到有需要的人"},{"start":3657.9199999999996,"end":3660.52,"text":"所以我認為政府在鼓勵自體的時候"},{"start":3660.52,"end":3662.64,"text":"同時要知道這種結構性的落差"},{"start":3662.64,"end":3665.9199999999996,"text":"思考如何讓領基本工資"},{"start":3665.9199999999996,"end":3671.8799999999997,"text":"沒有一遇儲蓄的勞工也能夠真正受益退休金制度的改善"},{"start":3671.8799999999997,"end":3676.64,"text":"而不是讓政策紅利只集中在少數人的身上"},{"start":3676.64,"end":3679.12,"text":"最後六個月之前被購嗎"},{"start":3679.7,"end":3682.06,"text":"因為中高齡的勞工說是不夠的"},{"start":3682.06,"end":3682.8199999999997,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":3682.8199999999997,"end":3684.3799999999997,"text":"因為資儲不足了"},{"start":3684.3799999999997,"end":3685.8199999999997,"text":"因為最高你是六個月"},{"start":3685.8199999999997,"end":3689.3399999999997,"text":"對年資長的一個勞工是保障不足"},{"start":3689.3399999999997,"end":3691.58,"text":"尤其是對中高齡的勞工來說"},{"start":3691.58,"end":3696.3799999999997,"text":"這個保障已經跟不上我們現在實際的需要"},{"start":3696.3799999999997,"end":3698.98,"text":"今年五一勞動遊行當中"},{"start":3698.98,"end":3701.8599999999997,"text":"勞工團體認為現行的我們的勞資費"},{"start":3701.8599999999997,"end":3704.98,"text":"最高六個月的上限應該要調整了"},{"start":3704.98,"end":3706.74,"text":"因為在勞動市場上"},{"start":3706.7799999999997,"end":3712.02,"text":"你會越趨不穩定結構性失業風險增高的狀況底下"},{"start":3712.02,"end":3715.9399999999996,"text":"現行保障已經難以應用的勞工年老的時候"},{"start":3715.9399999999996,"end":3718.02,"text":"他經濟安全的需求"},{"start":3718.02,"end":3720.8599999999997,"text":"而且你去看勞動部自己做的一個調查"},{"start":3720.8599999999997,"end":3723.7,"text":"目前勞工的平均年資是八點三年"},{"start":3724.3,"end":3726.82,"text":"看起來好像十二年是足夠"},{"start":3726.82,"end":3727.98,"text":"你可以領到六個月"},{"start":3727.98,"end":3729.78,"text":"可是同一份的調查也顯示"},{"start":3729.78,"end":3732.26,"text":"四十五歲到五十四歲的勞工"},{"start":3732.26,"end":3734.9,"text":"目前的工作平均是十二點五年"},{"start":3734.9,"end":3738.0600000000004,"text":"五十五到六十四歲的十五點八年"},{"start":3738.0600000000004,"end":3739.6200000000003,"text":"你一年零月長的話"},{"start":3739.6200000000003,"end":3741.6200000000003,"text":"他換工作的可能性不高"},{"start":3741.6200000000003,"end":3743.34,"text":"那可是他最後"},{"start":3744.0299999999997,"end":3745.1099999999997,"text":"一旦被支遣"},{"start":3745.1099999999997,"end":3746.79,"text":"我進來我就很關心"},{"start":3746.79,"end":3749.1499999999996,"text":"那個五十五歲被支遣"},{"start":3749.1499999999996,"end":3750.43,"text":"那他們拿到什麼"},{"start":3750.43,"end":3752.99,"text":"拿到還是一樣是六個月"},{"start":3752.99,"end":3756.2299999999996,"text":"我覺得這個真正逼近退休"},{"start":3756.2299999999996,"end":3759.1899999999996,"text":"所以最容易被支遣衝擊的中高齡的族群"},{"start":3759.1899999999996,"end":3764.47,"text":"他們實際的年資早就超過了你制度所謂涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":3764.47,"end":3766.0699999999997,"text":"所以我要提醒政府"},{"start":3766.0699999999997,"end":3767.99,"text":"中高齡勞工一旦被支遣"},{"start":3767.99,"end":3770.0699999999997,"text":"再就業真的不容易"},{"start":3770.0699999999997,"end":3771.39,"text":"所以我之前也要你們調查"},{"start":3771.39,"end":3773.31,"text":"到底五十五歲有沒有很多"},{"start":3774.01,"end":3775.4500000000003,"text":"被所謂講優退"},{"start":3775.4500000000003,"end":3776.53,"text":"講得好聽叫優退"},{"start":3776.53,"end":3779.8500000000004,"text":"可是實際上拿到的那個也沒有讓"},{"start":3779.8500000000004,"end":3782.73,"text":"因為他要轉換其他行業根本就是不可能"},{"start":3782.73,"end":3783.25,"text":"所以"},{"start":3784.5299999999997,"end":3789.1699999999996,"text":"當保障不足的制度遇上再就業的困難的現實的話"},{"start":3789.1699999999996,"end":3789.6099999999997,"text":"這對"},{"start":3790.77,"end":3793.77,"text":"對這群勞工來講是雙重的衝擊"},{"start":3793.77,"end":3797.85,"text":"我認為政府應該要針對支遣費上限來進行調整"},{"start":3797.85,"end":3801.77,"text":"尤其是應該正視我們的中高齡勞工的實際"},{"start":3803.34,"end":3807.46,"text":"我覺得讓最脆弱的一群人真的能夠獲得應有保障"},{"start":3807.46,"end":3811.1800000000003,"text":"不要再讓人家大熱天的還要再站出來"},{"start":3811.1800000000003,"end":3811.54,"text":"以上"},{"start":3812.55,"end":3813.8700000000003,"text":"謝謝林業前召委"},{"start":3814.95,"end":3816.91,"text":"接下來請郝聰人副教授"},{"start":3823.86,"end":3825.86,"text":"主席在座各位參與者"},{"start":3825.86,"end":3828.42,"text":"那我想我的在PPT上面"},{"start":3828.42,"end":3830.0600000000004,"text":"那我簡單的說一下"},{"start":3830.0600000000004,"end":3832.6200000000003,"text":"那因為今天的提綱當中有兩題"},{"start":3832.6200000000003,"end":3833.82,"text":"一題是勞保"},{"start":3833.82,"end":3834.7400000000002,"text":"一題是勞退"},{"start":3834.7400000000002,"end":3837.38,"text":"那我就針對這兩題做一個處理"},{"start":3837.38,"end":3839.7400000000002,"text":"勞保其實是一個考古題"},{"start":3839.7400000000002,"end":3841.5800000000004,"text":"這已經考了好多年了"},{"start":3841.5800000000004,"end":3845.86,"text":"那考古題為什麼還要再出出來"},{"start":3845.86,"end":3848.26,"text":"因為考古題有新的狀況了"},{"start":3848.26,"end":3849.78,"text":"現在狀況是什麼呢"},{"start":3849.78,"end":3852.5,"text":"我想現在狀況就是我們現在已經到了一個"},{"start":3853.38,"end":3854.42,"text":"英文叫Turning Point"},{"start":3854.42,"end":3855.94,"text":"已經到了一個臨界點"},{"start":3855.94,"end":3857.98,"text":"這個臨界點各位來看一下這個數字"},{"start":3857.98,"end":3858.7000000000003,"text":"大家就知道"},{"start":3859.25,"end":3862.85,"text":"這是我去看這個勞保局的一個統計"},{"start":3862.85,"end":3864.77,"text":"2025年勞保的一個狀況"},{"start":3864.77,"end":3867.13,"text":"就是領取的人大概是200萬"},{"start":3867.13,"end":3869.9700000000003,"text":"然後給付金額是5400億"},{"start":3869.9700000000003,"end":3873.89,"text":"那勞保實際收的保費是5100"},{"start":3873.89,"end":3875.4900000000002,"text":"各位這個數字代表什麼意思"},{"start":3875.4900000000002,"end":3877.53,"text":"從去年開始2025年開始"},{"start":3877.53,"end":3879.13,"text":"那個交叉已經出來"},{"start":3879.13,"end":3880.29,"text":"那個叫死亡交叉"},{"start":3880.29,"end":3882.4900000000002,"text":"也就是說2025年之前"},{"start":3882.4900000000002,"end":3884.61,"text":"收進來的保費還是大於支出去"},{"start":3884.61,"end":3886.69,"text":"那我想原因就不用去談了"},{"start":3886.73,"end":3889.77,"text":"那一旦這個死亡交叉出來以後"},{"start":3889.77,"end":3891.29,"text":"後面只會越來越嚴重"},{"start":3891.29,"end":3892.4500000000003,"text":"那會多嚴重呢"},{"start":3892.4500000000003,"end":3894.25,"text":"這也是精算報告案"},{"start":3894.25,"end":3895.57,"text":"我給各位一個數字"},{"start":3896.15,"end":3896.83,"text":"8年後"},{"start":3897.75,"end":3898.59,"text":"2034年"},{"start":3900.06,"end":3902.98,"text":"一年他的一個收支的差距就是5000億"},{"start":3903.93,"end":3906.5699999999997,"text":"各位剛才委員也在談到說"},{"start":3906.5699999999997,"end":3908.65,"text":"這個今年撥補的金額"},{"start":3908.65,"end":3911.45,"text":"大概是四分之一吧"},{"start":3911.45,"end":3912.97,"text":"好那所以說"},{"start":3912.97,"end":3914.17,"text":"不管你要不要入法"},{"start":3914.17,"end":3915.69,"text":"那這5000億怎麼辦"},{"start":3915.69,"end":3917.29,"text":"那5000億如果再下去的話"},{"start":3917.29,"end":3918.89,"text":"中央政府總預算怎麼辦"},{"start":3920.02,"end":3921.3,"text":"難道只有這5000億嗎"},{"start":3921.3,"end":3922.5,"text":"沒有啊"},{"start":3922.5,"end":3924.5,"text":"20年後2043年"},{"start":3925.07,"end":3926.15,"text":"那就是一兆"},{"start":3926.15,"end":3928.19,"text":"如果按照我們現在中央政府"},{"start":3928.19,"end":3930.8300000000004,"text":"中央政府的總預算三兆來看的話"},{"start":3930.8300000000004,"end":3932.63,"text":"那我也不知道怎麼樣"},{"start":3932.63,"end":3934.63,"text":"就是也就沒有然後了"},{"start":3934.63,"end":3936.19,"text":"那所以換言之就是"},{"start":3936.91,"end":3939.0299999999997,"text":"這件事情是考古題我也理解"},{"start":3939.0299999999997,"end":3941.79,"text":"但是考古題總不能沒有解答嘛"},{"start":3941.79,"end":3942.75,"text":"事實上"},{"start":3942.75,"end":3945.0299999999997,"text":"國發會經濟會早就研究過嘛"},{"start":3945.66,"end":3947.3399999999997,"text":"所以怎麼因應"},{"start":3948.44,"end":3950.64,"text":"高齡化也不是台灣才有啦"},{"start":3951.21,"end":3953.29,"text":"國際上的做法就是"},{"start":3953.29,"end":3955.53,"text":"基本上我們現在的做法叫流量"},{"start":3955.53,"end":3958.33,"text":"流量就是每一年撥一點點錢"},{"start":3958.33,"end":3960.01,"text":"但後面越來越大了以後"},{"start":3960.01,"end":3962.29,"text":"就不能用流量的做法啦"},{"start":3962.29,"end":3963.77,"text":"那實際的做法應該怎樣呢"},{"start":3963.77,"end":3964.77,"text":"就是存量"},{"start":3964.77,"end":3965.57,"text":"什麼叫存量"},{"start":3965.57,"end":3967.81,"text":"我給各位解釋一下它的概念"},{"start":3967.81,"end":3970.33,"text":"其實老保很像壽險公司啊"},{"start":3970.33,"end":3972.05,"text":"那今天會有這麼大的一個部分"},{"start":3972.05,"end":3973.73,"text":"是因為它有一個很大的"},{"start":3973.73,"end":3975.01,"text":"我們叫責任準備金"},{"start":3975.72,"end":3977.56,"text":"在壽險叫責任準備金"},{"start":3977.56,"end":3980.72,"text":"在我們社會保險裡面叫潛藏負債的"},{"start":3981.34,"end":3982.7400000000002,"text":"概念是一樣的啦"},{"start":3982.7400000000002,"end":3984.46,"text":"它後面缺口越來越大了"},{"start":3984.46,"end":3985.54,"text":"你不可能每年撥股"},{"start":3985.54,"end":3986.5800000000004,"text":"那壽險公司怎麼辦呢"},{"start":3986.5800000000004,"end":3988.9,"text":"壽險公司要提列準備啊"},{"start":3988.9,"end":3990.34,"text":"那政府也是一樣"},{"start":3990.34,"end":3992.54,"text":"中華民國政府就是保險公司啊"},{"start":3992.54,"end":3993.6200000000003,"text":"你也要提列準備"},{"start":3993.6200000000003,"end":3994.6600000000003,"text":"那怎麼提列準備"},{"start":3994.6600000000003,"end":3998.1400000000003,"text":"國際的做法就是先弄一筆儲備基金啦"},{"start":3999.46,"end":4000.82,"text":"至少要一筆錢啊"},{"start":4000.82,"end":4002.82,"text":"那而且要專法專用啦"},{"start":4002.82,"end":4003.82,"text":"專款專用啦"},{"start":4003.82,"end":4006.54,"text":"那這個其實過去大家有機會去看"},{"start":4006.54,"end":4008.3,"text":"經驗會國發會的報告一堆"},{"start":4008.3,"end":4009.82,"text":"我就不去細談"},{"start":4009.82,"end":4012.42,"text":"那怎麼樣做這個儲備基金專款專用"},{"start":4012.42,"end":4014.46,"text":"可能大院要做處理啊"},{"start":4014.46,"end":4015.9,"text":"好 這是一個"},{"start":4015.9,"end":4018.14,"text":"那第二件事情就是"},{"start":4018.14,"end":4020.66,"text":"事實上人口結構的問題也不是我們啊"},{"start":4020.66,"end":4022.62,"text":"所以國際上的做法"},{"start":4022.62,"end":4025.86,"text":"都是未來的給付的水準"},{"start":4025.86,"end":4028.14,"text":"要跟人口結構做連動啦"},{"start":4028.14,"end":4030.18,"text":"最有名的例子就是瑞典"},{"start":4030.18,"end":4032.02,"text":"瑞典的叫做NDC啦"},{"start":4032.61,"end":4034.53,"text":"好 那台灣要怎麼辦"},{"start":4034.53,"end":4035.73,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":4035.73,"end":4037.61,"text":"我覺得既然"},{"start":4037.61,"end":4040.05,"text":"既然大家願意把這個東西提出來"},{"start":4040.05,"end":4041.73,"text":"那考古題"},{"start":4041.73,"end":4043.9300000000003,"text":"過去寫的答案再拿出來看一看"},{"start":4043.9300000000003,"end":4045.29,"text":"那大家再想想看"},{"start":4045.29,"end":4046.65,"text":"這是第一題啦"},{"start":4046.65,"end":4047.77,"text":"那第二題我在想"},{"start":4047.77,"end":4049.73,"text":"老退這件事情當中呢"},{"start":4049.73,"end":4051.8900000000003,"text":"的確6%是不高"},{"start":4051.8900000000003,"end":4053.17,"text":"但是要再往上的時候"},{"start":4053.17,"end":4054.25,"text":"會碰到一個問題"},{"start":4054.25,"end":4056.81,"text":"就是我們有些資方是拿不出這麼多錢"},{"start":4056.81,"end":4060.8500000000004,"text":"所以才會有什麼一定規模員工年資"},{"start":4060.8500000000004,"end":4062.3300000000004,"text":"但是你只要一定條件"},{"start":4062.33,"end":4063.33,"text":"就會出問題"},{"start":4063.33,"end":4065.13,"text":"就是這條件OK不OK"},{"start":4065.13,"end":4065.89,"text":"比如說"},{"start":4065.89,"end":4067.41,"text":"為什麼是這樣的一個營業額"},{"start":4067.41,"end":4069.09,"text":"為什麼是這樣的年齡"},{"start":4069.09,"end":4070.33,"text":"好 那"},{"start":4070.33,"end":4072.0099999999998,"text":"那你這個定下去就很麻煩"},{"start":4072.0099999999998,"end":4074.49,"text":"所以接下來就是我要怎麼辦"},{"start":4074.49,"end":4076.29,"text":"如果勞動部真的要做這件事情"},{"start":4076.29,"end":4078.41,"text":"大致上就只有兩種做法嘛"},{"start":4078.41,"end":4080.33,"text":"第一種做法就是鼓勵"},{"start":4080.33,"end":4081.85,"text":"鼓勵有賺錢的人"},{"start":4081.85,"end":4082.77,"text":"那怎麼鼓勵"},{"start":4082.77,"end":4084.25,"text":"那就是財政部啊"},{"start":4084.25,"end":4086.17,"text":"財政部有鼓勵的辦法啊"},{"start":4086.17,"end":4087.37,"text":"好 租稅優惠"},{"start":4087.37,"end":4088.97,"text":"這個也不是台灣才有啊"},{"start":4088.97,"end":4091.29,"text":"美國的401K早就是這樣啊"},{"start":4091.29,"end":4092.81,"text":"好 這是一個辦法"},{"start":4092.81,"end":4094.21,"text":"那如果你是強制"},{"start":4094.82,"end":4095.82,"text":"那你要告訴我"},{"start":4095.82,"end":4097.06,"text":"你要訂什麼規則"},{"start":4097.06,"end":4099.34,"text":"那這個訂規則一定會打架嘛"},{"start":4099.34,"end":4100.46,"text":"那這時候怎麼辦"},{"start":4100.46,"end":4101.18,"text":"再說嘛"},{"start":4101.18,"end":4101.46,"text":"好"},{"start":4102,"end":4103.88,"text":"然後接下來還有一個問題"},{"start":4103.88,"end":4105.04,"text":"也是很麻煩的問題"},{"start":4105.04,"end":4106.4,"text":"就是那個錢要存在哪裡"},{"start":4107.6,"end":4109.4400000000005,"text":"其實20年前"},{"start":4109.4400000000005,"end":4110.52,"text":"勞退新制的時候"},{"start":4110.52,"end":4111.6,"text":"我不曉得大家記不記得"},{"start":4111.6,"end":4114.400000000001,"text":"其實當初是兩制並存"},{"start":4116.41,"end":4119.05,"text":"也就是我們是有一個叫個人賬戶制"},{"start":4119.05,"end":4120.8099999999995,"text":"還有一個叫做年金保險制"},{"start":4120.8099999999995,"end":4121.89,"text":"團體年金保險制"},{"start":4121.89,"end":4122.849999999999,"text":"只是大家都忘了"},{"start":4124.43,"end":4125.83,"text":"那我現在變成就是"},{"start":4125.83,"end":4127.75,"text":"因為那個六八是"},{"start":4127.75,"end":4128.95,"text":"確定一定要有的"},{"start":4128.95,"end":4130.91,"text":"那剩下的"},{"start":4130.91,"end":4132.71,"text":"變成可以有可以不有"},{"start":4132.71,"end":4134.07,"text":"那是不是可以把"},{"start":4134.07,"end":4136.83,"text":"過去的團體保險再拿回來"},{"start":4136.83,"end":4138.1900000000005,"text":"那拿回來以後"},{"start":4138.1900000000005,"end":4140.1900000000005,"text":"因為你讓雇主有誘因"},{"start":4140.1900000000005,"end":4142.1900000000005,"text":"除了租稅之外"},{"start":4142.1900000000005,"end":4143.39,"text":"是不是要有些留財"},{"start":4143.39,"end":4144.59,"text":"就是要有個閉鎖期"},{"start":4144.59,"end":4146.87,"text":"你要工作多少年才能夠拿這個錢"},{"start":4146.87,"end":4149.150000000001,"text":"人家才願意把錢丟進來嘛"},{"start":4149.150000000001,"end":4151.39,"text":"那是不是可以用銀行的信託"},{"start":4151.39,"end":4152.71,"text":"或者是保險公司的商品"},{"start":4152.71,"end":4153.55,"text":"去做包裝"},{"start":4153.55,"end":4155.31,"text":"這還有一些商業機制"},{"start":4155.31,"end":4156.67,"text":"也不是我們"},{"start":4156.67,"end":4158.27,"text":"國外也有"},{"start":4158.27,"end":4159.91,"text":"這個我想行政單位"},{"start":4159.91,"end":4161.55,"text":"自己去考慮一下就有了嘛"},{"start":4162.86,"end":4164.0599999999995,"text":"至於說"},{"start":4164.8,"end":4167.6,"text":"救治的這個資遣的問題"},{"start":4167.6,"end":4168.56,"text":"我自己的感覺"},{"start":4168.56,"end":4169.92,"text":"因為已經成立21年了"},{"start":4169.92,"end":4171.24,"text":"如果你去看那個法規"},{"start":4171.24,"end":4173.280000000001,"text":"超過25年就可以拿退休金了"},{"start":4173.280000000001,"end":4174.280000000001,"text":"所以實際上"},{"start":4174.280000000001,"end":4175.56,"text":"如果有救治的人"},{"start":4175.56,"end":4176.52,"text":"有資遣的問題"},{"start":4176.52,"end":4177.84,"text":"那個已經越來越少了"},{"start":4177.84,"end":4179.12,"text":"我講白了"},{"start":4179.12,"end":4180.8,"text":"已經越來越少了"},{"start":4180.8,"end":4183.400000000001,"text":"那我覺得這一次五一勞動"},{"start":4183.400000000001,"end":4185.56,"text":"裡面在抗爭法是另外一個問題"},{"start":4185.56,"end":4189.360000000001,"text":"就是勞基法當中的56條規範"},{"start":4190.01,"end":4192.77,"text":"超過30年就到頂了"},{"start":4192.77,"end":4194.45,"text":"到頂了就沒了"},{"start":4194.45,"end":4195.6900000000005,"text":"那到頂了沒了"},{"start":4195.6900000000005,"end":4196.93,"text":"那這個怎麼辦"},{"start":4196.93,"end":4198.45,"text":"是不是要結清"},{"start":4198.45,"end":4199.93,"text":"結清以後換新制"},{"start":4199.93,"end":4201.05,"text":"但結清"},{"start":4201.05,"end":4202.37,"text":"其實主願不願意結清"},{"start":4202.37,"end":4203.570000000001,"text":"這是另外一件事情"},{"start":4203.570000000001,"end":4205.05,"text":"這個也是一個考古題"},{"start":4205.05,"end":4207.33,"text":"因為當年勞動部在2005年"},{"start":4207.33,"end":4209.33,"text":"就宣示5年內要結清"},{"start":4209.33,"end":4211.93,"text":"但是然後就沒有然後了嘛"},{"start":4211.93,"end":4213.6900000000005,"text":"一樣嘛又是那個問題嘛"},{"start":4213.6900000000005,"end":4214.570000000001,"text":"好"},{"start":4214.570000000001,"end":4217.09,"text":"那至於說退休不足的這個問題"},{"start":4217.09,"end":4218.77,"text":"我現在分幾個東西來談"},{"start":4220.05,"end":4222.49,"text":"現在會選勞退新救治的人"},{"start":4222.49,"end":4223.89,"text":"基本上具備兩個特質"},{"start":4223.89,"end":4224.49,"text":"第一個特質"},{"start":4224.49,"end":4225.81,"text":"他一定是在大公司"},{"start":4225.81,"end":4227.21,"text":"中大型的公司"},{"start":4227.21,"end":4228.81,"text":"第二個他一定是工作年資"},{"start":4228.81,"end":4230.41,"text":"比較穩定的這一塊"},{"start":4230.41,"end":4232.650000000001,"text":"所以換言之救治的這一塊當中"},{"start":4232.650000000001,"end":4234.93,"text":"我覺得問題倒不是太難解決"},{"start":4234.93,"end":4237.41,"text":"因為本來當初就有18號公報"},{"start":4238.17,"end":4240.57,"text":"針對上市上櫃公司的那一塊"},{"start":4240.57,"end":4243.97,"text":"那18號公報就算他的那個潛藏負債嘛"},{"start":4243.97,"end":4246.89,"text":"那資產那一塊反正台銀都有資料嘛"},{"start":4246.89,"end":4248.61,"text":"所以這裡面可以理解嘛"},{"start":4249.34,"end":4252.42,"text":"然後撥補這一塊也很簡單"},{"start":4252.42,"end":4255.9800000000005,"text":"就是勞動部可以匯同財政部嘛"},{"start":4255.9800000000005,"end":4258.9400000000005,"text":"企業盈餘要分配給股東的時候"},{"start":4258.9400000000005,"end":4260.38,"text":"事先要去check"},{"start":4260.38,"end":4263.9400000000005,"text":"他負債那一塊有沒有盈補出來"},{"start":4263.9400000000005,"end":4265.66,"text":"這也許我們叫CSR嘛"},{"start":4265.66,"end":4267.58,"text":"那這個地方可以做處理嘛"},{"start":4267.58,"end":4269.5,"text":"那這樣的問題就可以緩解嘛"},{"start":4269.5,"end":4272.42,"text":"我想在技術上是有一些辦法可以做處理的"},{"start":4272.42,"end":4273.22,"text":"好謝謝大家"},{"start":4275.19,"end":4276.23,"text":"謝謝好教授"},{"start":4277.19,"end":4279.509999999999,"text":"接下來請陳鴻文副秘書長"},{"start":4292.55,"end":4295.030000000001,"text":"主席各位立法委員還有各位長官"},{"start":4295.030000000001,"end":4296.63,"text":"還有各位專家學者"},{"start":4296.63,"end":4300.35,"text":"以及那個相關的那個團體代表大家好"},{"start":4300.35,"end":4303.1900000000005,"text":"那很高興今天能夠代表產業工會"},{"start":4303.1900000000005,"end":4305.51,"text":"來參加今天這個公聽會"},{"start":4305.51,"end":4308.990000000001,"text":"那因為我們工業總會本身是代表全國性的"},{"start":4308.990000000001,"end":4312.070000000001,"text":"資方團體有161個團體會員"},{"start":4312.070000000001,"end":4314.71,"text":"那針對今天有兩個主題"},{"start":4314.71,"end":4317.070000000001,"text":"我大概基本上那個就是"},{"start":4317.070000000001,"end":4319.1900000000005,"text":"跟大家做一個說明跟報告"},{"start":4319.1900000000005,"end":4321.51,"text":"第一個是針對少子化跟高齡化"},{"start":4321.51,"end":4324.150000000001,"text":"會對整個勞保的這個財務"},{"start":4324.150000000001,"end":4328.71,"text":"會造成一些衝擊的這個議題來看的話"},{"start":4328.71,"end":4330.35,"text":"首先我大概有幾個數據"},{"start":4330.35,"end":4333.43,"text":"提供大家來做參考"},{"start":4333.43,"end":4335.35,"text":"第一個就是"},{"start":4335.35,"end":4338.43,"text":"今年的上半年的新生兒的出生人數"},{"start":4338.43,"end":4340.39,"text":"大概只有4萬6千多個人"},{"start":4340.39,"end":4342.95,"text":"那我們的整個總生育率"},{"start":4342.95,"end":4345.150000000001,"text":"大概是大概不到0.7"},{"start":4345.150000000001,"end":4346.35,"text":"所以在這個情況之下"},{"start":4346.35,"end":4349.030000000001,"text":"其實我們的人口是自然的在減少"},{"start":4349.55,"end":4352.67,"text":"而且從7月份的那個最新的一個報道"},{"start":4352.67,"end":4354.23,"text":"我們也知道就是說已經"},{"start":4354.23,"end":4356.59,"text":"總人口數連續30個月"},{"start":4356.59,"end":4358.19,"text":"他其實都是負成長"},{"start":4358.19,"end":4361.23,"text":"那人口在往下掉的這個情況之下"},{"start":4361.23,"end":4363.11,"text":"我們再回過頭來看"},{"start":4363.11,"end":4366.95,"text":"其實2015年我們的15到64歲的工作年齡"},{"start":4366.95,"end":4369.3099999999995,"text":"人口其實有1700多萬"},{"start":4369.3099999999995,"end":4372.429999999999,"text":"現在這個時間點應該剩下1500多萬而已"},{"start":4372.429999999999,"end":4374.2699999999995,"text":"那根據國發會的推估"},{"start":4374.2699999999995,"end":4376.07,"text":"其實到了2070年"},{"start":4376.07,"end":4377.75,"text":"這是一個很恐怖的數字"},{"start":4377.75,"end":4379.27,"text":"大概只剩下"},{"start":4379.27,"end":4381.39,"text":"如果我們的生育率沒有提高的話"},{"start":4381.39,"end":4383.83,"text":"大概只剩下697萬"},{"start":4383.83,"end":4387.11,"text":"那或許將來那個如果情勢在繼續嚴峻"},{"start":4387.11,"end":4388.91,"text":"這個數字還會再更低"},{"start":4388.91,"end":4390.75,"text":"那同時我們來看"},{"start":4390.75,"end":4394.47,"text":"去年大概2025年已經我們的老年人口"},{"start":4394.47,"end":4397.31,"text":"那個占總人口已經正式超過20%"},{"start":4397.31,"end":4398.67,"text":"已經超高的社會"},{"start":4398.67,"end":4401.67,"text":"那國發會的推估到了2070年"},{"start":4401.67,"end":4406.31,"text":"這個老年的這個數字的比例會到43.6"},{"start":4406.31,"end":4407.59,"text":"那這些數字來看"},{"start":4407.63,"end":4409.03,"text":"其實反映了一個結果"},{"start":4409.03,"end":4412.150000000001,"text":"就是勞動的工作年齡人口在遞減"},{"start":4412.150000000001,"end":4415.63,"text":"可是領取老年的給付的這個人數"},{"start":4415.63,"end":4417.150000000001,"text":"年金是在增加的"},{"start":4417.150000000001,"end":4418.47,"text":"我記得看過一個數字"},{"start":4418.47,"end":4420.63,"text":"大概現在有201萬左右"},{"start":4420.63,"end":4423.2300000000005,"text":"那這個時候就是那個"},{"start":4423.2300000000005,"end":4426.110000000001,"text":"就是為了要掌握整個勞保的最新財務狀況"},{"start":4426.110000000001,"end":4427.1900000000005,"text":"其實我也很同意"},{"start":4427.1900000000005,"end":4429.2300000000005,"text":"就是說剛剛次長有特別提到"},{"start":4429.2300000000005,"end":4430.47,"text":"而且其實是有規定"},{"start":4430.47,"end":4432.55,"text":"每三年要重新精算一次嘛"},{"start":4432.55,"end":4434.91,"text":"所以下次應該是2027年"},{"start":4434.91,"end":4436.1900000000005,"text":"所以2027年"},{"start":4436.23,"end":4439.629999999999,"text":"就是說我們邀請專家學者精算的這個結果"},{"start":4439.629999999999,"end":4441.669999999999,"text":"我覺得這個確實是很有必要"},{"start":4441.669999999999,"end":4443.95,"text":"不過就是說整個精算的結果"},{"start":4443.95,"end":4446.07,"text":"站在一個透明化跟公開化的"},{"start":4446.07,"end":4447.95,"text":"這樣子的一個角度來看的話"},{"start":4447.95,"end":4450.15,"text":"我覺得我們將來那個政府"},{"start":4450.15,"end":4452.11,"text":"還是要適時的讓社會各界"},{"start":4452.11,"end":4454.2699999999995,"text":"能夠知道整個精算的一個結果"},{"start":4454.2699999999995,"end":4456.07,"text":"這時我想第一個提出來"},{"start":4456.07,"end":4458.629999999999,"text":"那第二個有關勞保財務的一個報酬率"},{"start":4458.629999999999,"end":4461.03,"text":"跟那個封控的這個部分"},{"start":4461.03,"end":4463.79,"text":"那當然我們知道就是那個"},{"start":4463.83,"end":4466.31,"text":"就是那個基金運用管理局那邊"},{"start":4466.31,"end":4470.07,"text":"其實已經訂有完善的一些那個封控的管理系統"},{"start":4470.07,"end":4474.31,"text":"甚至有一個叫做那個封控管小組"},{"start":4474.31,"end":4476.71,"text":"那我覺得就是說因為這個"},{"start":4476.71,"end":4478.51,"text":"當然我們現在機制都很完備"},{"start":4478.51,"end":4480.91,"text":"可是因為整個國際的經濟情勢"},{"start":4480.91,"end":4482.43,"text":"跟所謂的地緣政治"},{"start":4482.43,"end":4485.07,"text":"其實造成這個金融市場"},{"start":4485.07,"end":4487.87,"text":"整個國際的那個變動其實是相當大的"},{"start":4487.87,"end":4490.19,"text":"所以我這邊只是要再提醒就是說"},{"start":4490.19,"end":4492.15,"text":"將來我們的這個就是說"},{"start":4492.19,"end":4494.11,"text":"因為實際還是人去操作嘛"},{"start":4494.11,"end":4496.03,"text":"這種靈敏度跟敏感度"},{"start":4496.03,"end":4498.11,"text":"我覺得應該要再更提高"},{"start":4498.11,"end":4500.469999999999,"text":"否則你就很難去應變這個"},{"start":4500.469999999999,"end":4502.429999999999,"text":"瞬息萬變的這個金融環境"},{"start":4502.429999999999,"end":4505.589999999999,"text":"那尤其是我們過去其實曾經發生過一些"},{"start":4505.589999999999,"end":4507.75,"text":"大家不樂意看到的一些弊案"},{"start":4507.75,"end":4509.87,"text":"所以就是說怎麼樣去檢討"},{"start":4510.67,"end":4512.47,"text":"哪些地方容易出現弊案"},{"start":4512.47,"end":4514.1900000000005,"text":"然後能夠對症下藥"},{"start":4514.1900000000005,"end":4517.51,"text":"我覺得將來這個不管是從強化的角度看"},{"start":4517.51,"end":4519.43,"text":"還是我覺得要落實"},{"start":4519.43,"end":4522.1900000000005,"text":"因為制度在那邊可是土法不足以自行"},{"start":4522.1900000000005,"end":4525.75,"text":"還是要真正去落實才能夠防患未然"},{"start":4525.75,"end":4527.43,"text":"這是針對第一個議題"},{"start":4527.43,"end":4529.31,"text":"我的一個意見跟看法"},{"start":4529.31,"end":4531.87,"text":"那第二個就是針對退休金的部分"},{"start":4531.87,"end":4536.07,"text":"我想因為要實質增加退休的這個退休金"},{"start":4536.07,"end":4539.55,"text":"然後保障勞工退休後的經濟生活"},{"start":4539.59,"end":4542.47,"text":"我想這個是各界共同的一個期待"},{"start":4542.47,"end":4544.71,"text":"跟共同要努力的目標"},{"start":4544.71,"end":4546.43,"text":"可是因為這個是"},{"start":4547.12,"end":4548.92,"text":"政府勞工跟雇主"},{"start":4548.92,"end":4551.04,"text":"我覺得這是大家共同的責任"},{"start":4551.04,"end":4553.08,"text":"可是所以回過頭來"},{"start":4553.08,"end":4556.44,"text":"我們現在看政府目前採取的一些方案跟措施"},{"start":4556.44,"end":4559.04,"text":"就是說其實剛剛次長有特別提到"},{"start":4559.04,"end":4561.48,"text":"其實最近的那個修法裡面"},{"start":4561.48,"end":4562.92,"text":"那個勞退的適應系者"},{"start":4562.92,"end":4565.16,"text":"其自已修了一些相關的規定"},{"start":4565.16,"end":4567.5599999999995,"text":"然後最近其實也提出來"},{"start":4567.5599999999995,"end":4570.08,"text":"就是針對那個純就制的勞工"},{"start":4570.08,"end":4572.32,"text":"要讓他能夠自願提繳之後"},{"start":4572.32,"end":4575.36,"text":"那也能夠跟雇主去做所謂的合意"},{"start":4575.4,"end":4577.599999999999,"text":"然後節存這筆退休金"},{"start":4577.599999999999,"end":4579.4,"text":"那因為過去就制的勞工"},{"start":4579.4,"end":4581,"text":"其實他最大的問題是說"},{"start":4581.63,"end":4583.150000000001,"text":"第一個他符合退休條件"},{"start":4583.150000000001,"end":4584.55,"text":"第二個他那筆退休金"},{"start":4584.55,"end":4586.11,"text":"45個技術去換算"},{"start":4586.11,"end":4587.79,"text":"其實他是不會增值的"},{"start":4587.79,"end":4591.27,"text":"他就是你符合退休條件領的就是這麼多"},{"start":4591.27,"end":4593.31,"text":"可是我們的勞退薪制"},{"start":4593.31,"end":4594.55,"text":"他其實是會"},{"start":4594.55,"end":4596.59,"text":"不管是那個國家保證的2%"},{"start":4596.59,"end":4597.91,"text":"還是現在的投資收益"},{"start":4597.91,"end":4599.59,"text":"尤其是近三五年來"},{"start":4599.59,"end":4602.91,"text":"整個那個投資收益其實那個效果非常好"},{"start":4602.91,"end":4605.47,"text":"所以這裡面就是說我也非常肯定就是說"},{"start":4605.47,"end":4608.35,"text":"不管從就制的一個轉薪制"},{"start":4608.35,"end":4610.39,"text":"還是那個最近的一些修法"},{"start":4610.43,"end":4613.51,"text":"其實對勞工退休的保障這個部分"},{"start":4613.51,"end":4614.63,"text":"我覺得個人是"},{"start":4615.16,"end":4618,"text":"跟產業界是非常的一個肯定"},{"start":4618,"end":4620.76,"text":"那可是我們回過頭來要看說"},{"start":4620.76,"end":4622.16,"text":"薪制的這個部分"},{"start":4622.16,"end":4624.04,"text":"因為剛剛次長也有特別提到"},{"start":4624.04,"end":4628.28,"text":"其實是一體適用所有不同規模的這些相關企業"},{"start":4628.28,"end":4630.36,"text":"而且他其實不管是勞期法"},{"start":4630.36,"end":4632.04,"text":"還是我們退休金的這種規定"},{"start":4632.04,"end":4634.12,"text":"都是一個最低的標準而已"},{"start":4634.12,"end":4636.96,"text":"所以回過頭來我們來看有幾件事情"},{"start":4636.96,"end":4637.5599999999995,"text":"第一個就是說"},{"start":4637.5599999999995,"end":4639.76,"text":"剛剛其實專家學者也有特別提到"},{"start":4639.76,"end":4641.5599999999995,"text":"現在的這個K型化的一個"},{"start":4641.5599999999995,"end":4644.5599999999995,"text":"不管是社會結構還是整個產業結構"},{"start":4644.6,"end":4646.84,"text":"其實就是產業發展"},{"start":4646.84,"end":4649.52,"text":"其實已經出現一個嚴重失衡的對象"},{"start":4649.52,"end":4650.76,"text":"好好的很好"},{"start":4650.76,"end":4653.88,"text":"那可能艱困的或是說往下去做"},{"start":4653.88,"end":4656.84,"text":"那個就是那個需要政府去扶持的"},{"start":4656.84,"end":4658.64,"text":"這些傳統產業也很多"},{"start":4658.64,"end":4662.120000000001,"text":"那這裡面就是會造成有這樣的一個現象"},{"start":4662.120000000001,"end":4665.04,"text":"那另外一個就是我們現在的勞保勞退"},{"start":4665.04,"end":4668.4400000000005,"text":"然後救保還有健保這加起來"},{"start":4668.4400000000005,"end":4671.4400000000005,"text":"其實他的那個提撥的那個法定的成本"},{"start":4671.4400000000005,"end":4673.68,"text":"其實對中小企業跟傳統產業來講"},{"start":4673.68,"end":4676.4400000000005,"text":"其實他的那個負擔也很大"},{"start":4676.4400000000005,"end":4678.240000000001,"text":"那第三個就是我們來看"},{"start":4678.240000000001,"end":4681.400000000001,"text":"現在其實勞工的自體率只有大概17.2"},{"start":4681.400000000001,"end":4683.72,"text":"那我剛剛講其實退休金是"},{"start":4683.72,"end":4686.04,"text":"政府勞工跟雇主共同的責任"},{"start":4686.04,"end":4688.08,"text":"所以我覺得政府也要去思考"},{"start":4688.08,"end":4689.76,"text":"怎麼樣有更大的誘因"},{"start":4689.76,"end":4693.280000000001,"text":"讓員工讓勞工他願意自己去做提繳"},{"start":4693.280000000001,"end":4696.200000000001,"text":"然後再來享受這個投資收益的一個報酬"},{"start":4696.200000000001,"end":4697.92,"text":"所以簡單來講就是說"},{"start":4697.92,"end":4702.16,"text":"就退休的這個議題來看的話"},{"start":4702.2,"end":4704.72,"text":"目前我們是那個非常贊成"},{"start":4704.72,"end":4707.84,"text":"就是說次長在報告裡面有特別提到"},{"start":4707.84,"end":4710.12,"text":"政府要運用多元的管道"},{"start":4710.12,"end":4713.16,"text":"鼓勵勞顧雙方來提高這個所謂的提撥率"},{"start":4713.16,"end":4716.2,"text":"那這裡面我覺得除了剛剛報告的那三點之外"},{"start":4716.2,"end":4719.2,"text":"或許可以在應用大家的智慧腦力氣氛"},{"start":4719.2,"end":4721.88,"text":"下有更多更好的這樣一個鼓勵"},{"start":4721.88,"end":4724,"text":"跟挫折方案可以提出來"},{"start":4724,"end":4726.36,"text":"然後讓雇主願意跟勞工"},{"start":4726.36,"end":4729.08,"text":"尤其是雇主跟勞工我覺得應該同步"},{"start":4729.12,"end":4732.2,"text":"就是說能夠在符合法定的這個標準下面"},{"start":4732.2,"end":4735.8,"text":"然後大家願意來有更多的這樣一個提撥"},{"start":4735.8,"end":4736.76,"text":"來照顧到勞工"},{"start":4736.76,"end":4738.64,"text":"我想這是大家共同的期待"},{"start":4738.64,"end":4740.5199999999995,"text":"以上意見提供大家參考"},{"start":4741.2,"end":4743.12,"text":"謝謝陳宏文副秘書長"},{"start":4743.81,"end":4745.570000000001,"text":"接下來請王政旭委員"},{"start":4758.17,"end":4761.41,"text":"主席 各位學者專家"},{"start":4762.11,"end":4763.03,"text":"團體代表"},{"start":4763.58,"end":4765.34,"text":"還有我們在場的委員"},{"start":4765.34,"end":4767.22,"text":"以及各位官員"},{"start":4767.22,"end":4767.74,"text":"大家早"},{"start":4768.42,"end":4771.78,"text":"非常感謝主席安排這場重要的公聽會"},{"start":4771.78,"end":4774.66,"text":"讓我跟各位委員有機會來聆聽"},{"start":4774.66,"end":4777.3,"text":"所有專家學者跟先進們的寶貴意見"},{"start":4777.3,"end":4779.06,"text":"作為我們未來保障"},{"start":4779.06,"end":4781.3,"text":"臺灣廣大勞工"},{"start":4781.3,"end":4784.22,"text":"老年經濟安全的重要的參考"},{"start":4784.22,"end":4786.1,"text":"針對這項議題"},{"start":4786.1,"end":4789.7,"text":"我想要提出下列的三點看法"},{"start":4789.7,"end":4792.62,"text":"第一 勞保投保級距提高"},{"start":4792.62,"end":4795.22,"text":"跟勞保財務的多元改善"},{"start":4796.13,"end":4798.13,"text":"首先針對勞保的部分"},{"start":4798.13,"end":4800.650000000001,"text":"右面我們還是希望能夠提高"},{"start":4800.650000000001,"end":4802.41,"text":"勞保投保級距"},{"start":4802.41,"end":4805.29,"text":"但同時我們也知道"},{"start":4805.29,"end":4809.37,"text":"這會牽扯到目前勞保財務的平衡"},{"start":4809.37,"end":4809.97,"text":"因此"},{"start":4810.65,"end":4814.17,"text":"勞保財務也需要相應的做多元的改善"},{"start":4814.79,"end":4816.75,"text":"過去我在質詢的時候"},{"start":4816.75,"end":4821.19,"text":"就曾經提出目前勞保最高投保的級距"},{"start":4821.19,"end":4823.03,"text":"四萬五千八百元"},{"start":4823.03,"end":4825.75,"text":"已經十年都沒有調整"},{"start":4825.75,"end":4828.23,"text":"那到現在投保勞保的人"},{"start":4828.23,"end":4830.67,"text":"已經有36.4%"},{"start":4830.67,"end":4833.91,"text":"意思就是說有超過382萬人"},{"start":4833.91,"end":4837.51,"text":"都集中在45800這個級距"},{"start":4837.51,"end":4841.15,"text":"勞動部的確應該要考慮打開這個級距"},{"start":4841.15,"end":4844.2699999999995,"text":"這是大家共同能夠認知的"},{"start":4844.27,"end":4846.67,"text":"但我們也完全能夠理解"},{"start":4846.67,"end":4848.75,"text":"勞動部主要的考量"},{"start":4848.75,"end":4852.71,"text":"還是在於勞保財政上如何平衡的問題"},{"start":4853.59,"end":4855.43,"text":"特別是在最近我們修法"},{"start":4855.43,"end":4860.71,"text":"通過了勞保政府最終支付責任入法以後"},{"start":4860.71,"end":4864.67,"text":"再加上最近兩任的勞動部長"},{"start":4864.67,"end":4867.99,"text":"都曾經公開表示目前不會降低給付"},{"start":4867.99,"end":4871.27,"text":"那就更應該從收入面來想辦法"},{"start":4871.27,"end":4874.55,"text":"所以我們還是得麻煩勞動部"},{"start":4874.55,"end":4878.91,"text":"針對包括爭取相關的這些稅捐的挹注"},{"start":4878.91,"end":4882.99,"text":"甚至是勞保保費合理的調整等方向"},{"start":4883.03,"end":4886.03,"text":"都應該更積極的透過更多元的措施"},{"start":4886.03,"end":4889.91,"text":"來讓勞保的財務更平衡穩定"},{"start":4889.91,"end":4890.95,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":4890.95,"end":4896.23,"text":"第二點就是討論這個調高勞退薪制提繳率"},{"start":4896.23,"end":4900.389999999999,"text":"針對於勞退薪制雇主法令提撥率"},{"start":4900.389999999999,"end":4902.71,"text":"6%提高的訴求"},{"start":4902.71,"end":4905.51,"text":"其實在這一屆選舉之前"},{"start":4905.51,"end":4907.67,"text":"大家都有請總統候選人"},{"start":4907.67,"end":4910.15,"text":"來分享這方面的政見"},{"start":4910.15,"end":4912.67,"text":"尤其今年五一旅行以後"},{"start":4912.67,"end":4916.07,"text":"各位工會的幹部跟勞工團體的代表"},{"start":4916.07,"end":4919.2300000000005,"text":"其實今天也有很多都在現場"},{"start":4919.2300000000005,"end":4922.2300000000005,"text":"也有來跟我們民進黨的黨團討論"},{"start":4922.2300000000005,"end":4923.79,"text":"這方面的訴求"},{"start":4923.79,"end":4928.43,"text":"我想勞退薪制從實施到現在也超過20年"},{"start":4928.43,"end":4931.47,"text":"當年是為了解決有75%以上的勞工"},{"start":4931.47,"end":4934.2300000000005,"text":"無法領到就職退休金的問題"},{"start":4934.2300000000005,"end":4938.43,"text":"才會改成現在個人贓戶制的勞退薪制"},{"start":4938.43,"end":4939.51,"text":"那到了現在"},{"start":4939.55,"end":4943.1900000000005,"text":"隨著生活成本跟開銷逐漸的高漲"},{"start":4943.1900000000005,"end":4945.95,"text":"我們也認為該來討論"},{"start":4945.95,"end":4949.070000000001,"text":"勞退薪制雇主提撥率的提高"},{"start":4949.070000000001,"end":4951.150000000001,"text":"因此我個人也連署了"},{"start":4951.150000000001,"end":4955.75,"text":"由賴瑞龍跟黃捷委員領銜的修法的提案"},{"start":4955.75,"end":4959.75,"text":"希望可能將這個提撥率提高到9%"},{"start":4959.75,"end":4963.27,"text":"就是從現在的6%提高到9%"},{"start":4963.27,"end":4964.71,"text":"當然我們最近也有看到"},{"start":4964.71,"end":4966.91,"text":"現在國民黨的牛許廷委員提案"},{"start":4966.91,"end":4970.67,"text":"每年用0.5%的竹簾提高到9%"},{"start":4970.67,"end":4973.11,"text":"那也是另外一種想法或做法"},{"start":4973.11,"end":4977.47,"text":"還有民眾黨團也提案提高到8%的提案"},{"start":4977.47,"end":4980.59,"text":"我相信提高是大家期待的方向"},{"start":4980.59,"end":4982.07,"text":"也是共同的目標"},{"start":4982.07,"end":4986.43,"text":"而提高的幅度還有裁員應該都有討論的空間"},{"start":4986.43,"end":4989.07,"text":"所以我也希望行政院和勞動部"},{"start":4989.07,"end":4991.71,"text":"在今天聽完大家的意見以後"},{"start":4991.71,"end":4994.47,"text":"能有更正面更積極的回應"},{"start":4994.47,"end":4999.030000000001,"text":"甚至能夠看到是否能夠有行政院版本的提出"},{"start":4999.030000000001,"end":5000.43,"text":"這是很期待的"},{"start":5000.43,"end":5005.150000000001,"text":"那第三點就是其實勞動法令規範的最終是"},{"start":5005.150000000001,"end":5007.2300000000005,"text":"終究是一個最低的保障"},{"start":5007.2300000000005,"end":5015.030000000001,"text":"我們很希望最終能夠回應到這個勞資雙方的協商的機制"},{"start":5015.030000000001,"end":5016.67,"text":"在這個公聽委的最後"},{"start":5016.67,"end":5018.27,"text":"我想一個問題我想要提出來"},{"start":5018.27,"end":5020.35,"text":"就是勞動法令的規範"},{"start":5020.35,"end":5022.59,"text":"終究還是勞動條件的底線"},{"start":5022.63,"end":5024.55,"text":"是屬於最低的保障"},{"start":5024.55,"end":5027.79,"text":"如果我們看到這個目前勞保局"},{"start":5027.79,"end":5031.75,"text":"在114年勞退薪資的年報統計裡面"},{"start":5031.75,"end":5034.67,"text":"在768萬的受僱勞工當中"},{"start":5034.67,"end":5039.83,"text":"有760萬的這些勞工的勞退雇主提撥率是6%"},{"start":5039.83,"end":5041.63,"text":"剛剛已經講了非常多次"},{"start":5041.63,"end":5043.55,"text":"這個本來是基本的保障"},{"start":5043.55,"end":5046.55,"text":"反而變成是一個好像是一個天花板一樣"},{"start":5046.55,"end":5049.03,"text":"比例高達這個99%"},{"start":5049.78,"end":5054.139999999999,"text":"等於說只有7萬位的勞工是1%"},{"start":5054.139999999999,"end":5057.54,"text":"雇主會幫忙提撥比6%更高的勞退"},{"start":5057.54,"end":5059.179999999999,"text":"這不是我們所期待的"},{"start":5059.179999999999,"end":5062.66,"text":"因此政府要怎麼樣輔導或鼓勵企業"},{"start":5062.66,"end":5064.3,"text":"設計相關的機制"},{"start":5064.3,"end":5069.46,"text":"讓企業願意幫勞工提撥比法律規定更好的退休金"},{"start":5069.46,"end":5072.58,"text":"應該也是勞動部要更積極來推動的方向"},{"start":5072.58,"end":5075.42,"text":"不然一直要靠修法才能增加"},{"start":5075.42,"end":5076.3,"text":"長遠來說"},{"start":5076.95,"end":5079.03,"text":"剛剛我們很多的專家也提到"},{"start":5079.03,"end":5082.63,"text":"這個會有其他的這些其他問題出現"},{"start":5082.63,"end":5083.91,"text":"以上意見"},{"start":5083.91,"end":5084.91,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5086.08,"end":5087.92,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員"},{"start":5087.92,"end":5090.5199999999995,"text":"接下來請楊子明副秘書長"},{"start":5100.31,"end":5102.950000000001,"text":"主席還有各位在座的先進"},{"start":5102.950000000001,"end":5104.55,"text":"還有我們工業界商業界"},{"start":5104.55,"end":5106.39,"text":"還有專家學者們"},{"start":5106.39,"end":5108.39,"text":"還有我們的公務機關代表大家好"},{"start":5108.39,"end":5113.47,"text":"我要代表全國中央企業總會代表171萬家的企業"},{"start":5113.47,"end":5120.2300000000005,"text":"還有171萬家裡面還有919萬的就業人口的這些勞工們"},{"start":5120.2300000000005,"end":5121.39,"text":"來這邊來"},{"start":5122.26,"end":5123.46,"text":"進行發言這樣子"},{"start":5123.46,"end":5124.46,"text":"所以要感謝"},{"start":5125.57,"end":5128.17,"text":"委員會這邊願意讓中小微企業"},{"start":5128.17,"end":5132.929999999999,"text":"好的生意能夠有機會在這個場合上被互動被對待"},{"start":5132.929999999999,"end":5135.29,"text":"但是在發言之前我想我還是代表個人"},{"start":5136.16,"end":5136.92,"text":"我很緊張"},{"start":5136.92,"end":5141.96,"text":"但是我緊張的原因是在於相對的我也是年輕世代的人"},{"start":5141.96,"end":5142.8,"text":"我也是勞工"},{"start":5142.8,"end":5143.96,"text":"我也是員工"},{"start":5143.96,"end":5145.72,"text":"那要不是有各位"},{"start":5145.72,"end":5150.68,"text":"我們工業界的先進在前線一直努力地為我們爭取權益"},{"start":5150.68,"end":5156.16,"text":"那我也沒有機會在這個業界裡面能夠穩定的發展到現在"},{"start":5156.16,"end":5159.68,"text":"能夠代表自己的公司或者是甚至代表"},{"start":5160.31,"end":5163.39,"text":"自己的工作來做這樣子一個發言的機會"},{"start":5163.39,"end":5167.2300000000005,"text":"所以很真心的謝謝各位為我們的權益"},{"start":5167.2300000000005,"end":5169.830000000001,"text":"為我們的這個世代或者下一個世代"},{"start":5169.830000000001,"end":5170.790000000001,"text":"一起來做努力"},{"start":5170.790000000001,"end":5172.110000000001,"text":"一起來做討論"},{"start":5172.110000000001,"end":5173.43,"text":"但相對的"},{"start":5173.43,"end":5174.55,"text":"我的工作裡面"},{"start":5175.18,"end":5177.58,"text":"我看過了無數的企業"},{"start":5177.58,"end":5178.780000000001,"text":"那20幾年"},{"start":5178.780000000001,"end":5180.42,"text":"將近20年的工作裡面"},{"start":5180.42,"end":5182.06,"text":"我真的看到第一線"},{"start":5182.06,"end":5184.660000000001,"text":"業界在努力"},{"start":5184.660000000001,"end":5185.820000000001,"text":"的這樣子一個過程"},{"start":5185.820000000001,"end":5188.660000000001,"text":"所以如同剛剛蔡教授有提過的"},{"start":5189.66,"end":5190.66,"text":"面對少資齡化"},{"start":5190.66,"end":5191.86,"text":"面對缺工的時代"},{"start":5191.86,"end":5195.18,"text":"我相信有很大多數的企業老闆們"},{"start":5195.18,"end":5197.54,"text":"甚至企業二代接班之後"},{"start":5197.54,"end":5200.78,"text":"都很真正的正視到我們勞工的權益"},{"start":5200.78,"end":5203.3,"text":"如何去改善勞工的這樣子"},{"start":5203.3,"end":5205.14,"text":"員工的這樣子的一個工作權益"},{"start":5205.14,"end":5206.9,"text":"是大家所共同在努力的"},{"start":5206.9,"end":5207.3,"text":"所以"},{"start":5207.92,"end":5209.36,"text":"也期待是說"},{"start":5209.36,"end":5211.64,"text":"不要一直把過去對於老闆"},{"start":5211.64,"end":5213.56,"text":"都是不好的樣子的一個標籤"},{"start":5213.56,"end":5214.68,"text":"我們能夠撕掉"},{"start":5214.68,"end":5217.4800000000005,"text":"然後能夠的很正視到企業"},{"start":5218.2,"end":5220.24,"text":"在經營上面的一些的困境"},{"start":5220.24,"end":5221.64,"text":"然後能夠一起來思考"},{"start":5221.64,"end":5223.28,"text":"我們的制度如何的去進進"},{"start":5223.28,"end":5225.64,"text":"我想是我今天來這邊的目的"},{"start":5225.64,"end":5228.12,"text":"那前面的好幾位的先進已經發言了"},{"start":5228.12,"end":5230.36,"text":"基本上立場我們都是支持的"},{"start":5230.36,"end":5233.88,"text":"只要能夠對於整個勞保財務"},{"start":5233.88,"end":5235.72,"text":"勞保財政制度的穩健"},{"start":5235.72,"end":5239.92,"text":"還有我們的勞工的退休的制度的一個安定"},{"start":5239.92,"end":5241.5599999999995,"text":"或者是整個制度的永續性"},{"start":5241.5599999999995,"end":5243.72,"text":"這些的基本立場"},{"start":5243.72,"end":5246.08,"text":"我相信工商業界都是很支持"},{"start":5246.12,"end":5248.8,"text":"只是說任何的一個法制的異動"},{"start":5248.8,"end":5250.76,"text":"真心的都期待說"},{"start":5250.76,"end":5254.16,"text":"能夠去評估到對中小企業"},{"start":5254.16,"end":5255.24,"text":"尤其是微型企業"},{"start":5255.24,"end":5256.92,"text":"帶來什麼樣的一個影響"},{"start":5256.92,"end":5258.44,"text":"所以相關的一些所謂的"},{"start":5260.19,"end":5261.429999999999,"text":"法規的影響評估"},{"start":5261.429999999999,"end":5263.23,"text":"我期待我們在任何的制度"},{"start":5263.23,"end":5264.509999999999,"text":"如果真的有異動的時候"},{"start":5264.509999999999,"end":5266.389999999999,"text":"也都能夠把中小企業的影響"},{"start":5266.389999999999,"end":5267.589999999999,"text":"能夠一起去納進去"},{"start":5268.51,"end":5269.43,"text":"今天兩個主題"},{"start":5269.43,"end":5271.47,"text":"一個是針對勞保的議題"},{"start":5271.47,"end":5273.63,"text":"那前面所述的這個部分"},{"start":5273.63,"end":5274.83,"text":"大概都是支持的"},{"start":5274.83,"end":5276.83,"text":"那相信對於所謂的"},{"start":5279.08,"end":5281.28,"text":"那個勞保財政的部分"},{"start":5281.28,"end":5281.96,"text":"財務的部分"},{"start":5281.96,"end":5285.5199999999995,"text":"我相信目前所謂的精算的這些評估"},{"start":5285.5199999999995,"end":5286.44,"text":"都有一定的基礎"},{"start":5286.44,"end":5288.44,"text":"而且都是專業專家所做出來的"},{"start":5288.44,"end":5290.84,"text":"只是說也如同剛剛工種所提的"},{"start":5290.84,"end":5292.88,"text":"能夠對外界的一個溝通"},{"start":5292.88,"end":5295.48,"text":"讓外界知道我們所試算的這些的結果"},{"start":5296.42,"end":5297.900000000001,"text":"能夠讓大家充分的理解"},{"start":5297.900000000001,"end":5300.54,"text":"尤其是業界或者是社會大眾去理解"},{"start":5300.54,"end":5303.1,"text":"我相信就降低彼此之間的一個疑慮"},{"start":5303.1,"end":5305.74,"text":"那我相信對於在理性溝通上面"},{"start":5305.74,"end":5307.54,"text":"都能夠去被支持"},{"start":5307.54,"end":5308.820000000001,"text":"只是說對於勞保基金"},{"start":5308.820000000001,"end":5311.06,"text":"是不是要採固定撥補"},{"start":5311.06,"end":5312.9800000000005,"text":"那是不是 還有是有其他的財源"},{"start":5312.9800000000005,"end":5315.66,"text":"我們都是尊重主管機關的評估"},{"start":5315.66,"end":5317.18,"text":"但是我覺得剛剛像月情委員"},{"start":5317.18,"end":5318.42,"text":"大概有提過"},{"start":5318.42,"end":5320.7,"text":"是不是整個的稅制改革才是個問題"},{"start":5320.7,"end":5321.820000000001,"text":"不在於就是說"},{"start":5321.820000000001,"end":5324.42,"text":"因為即便我是用公共預算去做提撥"},{"start":5324.46,"end":5326.9,"text":"但是還是受到整體財政的影響"},{"start":5326.9,"end":5327.9800000000005,"text":"整體財政的比例"},{"start":5327.9800000000005,"end":5329.62,"text":"我相信餅就這麼的大"},{"start":5329.62,"end":5331.7,"text":"那到底要救的地方有很多"},{"start":5331.7,"end":5333.5,"text":"有能源 有各個面向的要去"},{"start":5335.05,"end":5336.93,"text":"那到底如果你不斷"},{"start":5336.93,"end":5339.77,"text":"你提撥了 你增加了這邊的一個比例"},{"start":5339.77,"end":5341.65,"text":"那其他的比例相對就被犧牲"},{"start":5341.65,"end":5343.37,"text":"那大家可能在這工坊之間"},{"start":5343.37,"end":5345.77,"text":"可能這個部分可能就會"},{"start":5345.77,"end":5346.85,"text":"不是那麼的容易"},{"start":5346.85,"end":5348.57,"text":"那也不是那麼的穩定"},{"start":5348.57,"end":5350.05,"text":"所以如果站在比較"},{"start":5350.05,"end":5351.93,"text":"整個勞保基金能夠比較"},{"start":5351.93,"end":5353.37,"text":"穩定發展的立場"},{"start":5353.37,"end":5355.57,"text":"所以還是希望是說"},{"start":5355.57,"end":5357.25,"text":"能夠去評估到整個的制度"},{"start":5357.25,"end":5358.6900000000005,"text":"或整體的環境如何去改善"},{"start":5358.6900000000005,"end":5360.57,"text":"這個部分可能還是比較重點"},{"start":5360.57,"end":5363.25,"text":"好 那第二個議題是在我們的"},{"start":5363.25,"end":5365.05,"text":"勞工配修制度的部分"},{"start":5366.05,"end":5367.49,"text":"最主要跟工商比較有影響"},{"start":5367.49,"end":5369.49,"text":"是所謂的提高僱主的提撥率"},{"start":5371.39,"end":5372.39,"text":"剛剛有提過"},{"start":5372.39,"end":5374.27,"text":"每提升一個百分比"},{"start":5374.27,"end":5376.67,"text":"其實對企業所提"},{"start":5376.67,"end":5379.070000000001,"text":"整個的法定勞動成本就是提升的"},{"start":5379.070000000001,"end":5380.67,"text":"所以對於中小微的"},{"start":5380.67,"end":5382.83,"text":"這樣整個負擔相對就比大企業來得大"},{"start":5382.83,"end":5385.67,"text":"所以剛剛蔡老師有提到說"},{"start":5385.67,"end":5387.2300000000005,"text":"不要一直用的所謂的企業規模"},{"start":5387.2300000000005,"end":5388.070000000001,"text":"來看待這些事情"},{"start":5388.070000000001,"end":5389.39,"text":"可是這個就是事實"},{"start":5389.39,"end":5391.1900000000005,"text":"中小微企業所能夠負擔的能力"},{"start":5391.1900000000005,"end":5392.75,"text":"就是比大企業就是來得弱"},{"start":5393.4,"end":5396.839999999999,"text":"可是一個法制也不可能是說"},{"start":5396.839999999999,"end":5400.08,"text":"大企業十幾%"},{"start":5400.08,"end":5401.48,"text":"中小企業6%"},{"start":5401.48,"end":5402.04,"text":"很難嘛"},{"start":5402.04,"end":5404.04,"text":"因為整個法制制度上面"},{"start":5404.04,"end":5406.04,"text":"就是一體適用的"},{"start":5406.04,"end":5408.5599999999995,"text":"而且假如是真的有這樣子的差別"},{"start":5408.5599999999995,"end":5409.92,"text":"這樣子的一個比例的話"},{"start":5409.92,"end":5411.719999999999,"text":"基本上也會造成所謂的門檻效應"},{"start":5411.719999999999,"end":5412.719999999999,"text":"或者是"},{"start":5412.96,"end":5414.32,"text":"可能也會有任地上面的移"},{"start":5414.32,"end":5416.4,"text":"實務上也推行上也不是那麼的容易"},{"start":5416.4,"end":5418.76,"text":"所以常識的建議的話"},{"start":5418.76,"end":5419.92,"text":"是不是從"},{"start":5419.92,"end":5422.24,"text":"我相信也都已經有在努力"},{"start":5422.24,"end":5425.36,"text":"如何提升員工的自提率"},{"start":5425.36,"end":5429,"text":"一或者我們透過什麼樣的鼓勵的機制"},{"start":5429,"end":5432.52,"text":"鼓勵企業超過法定的那個比例"},{"start":5432.52,"end":5434.24,"text":"去增加提撥"},{"start":5434.24,"end":5436.04,"text":"給予他例如說企業"},{"start":5436.57,"end":5437.41,"text":"多提撥的"},{"start":5437.41,"end":5439.45,"text":"那就給予他"},{"start":5439.45,"end":5441.65,"text":"稅後的所謂的租稅優惠的抵減"},{"start":5441.65,"end":5444.45,"text":"去鼓勵企業去做到"},{"start":5444.45,"end":5445.57,"text":"照顧員工這件事情"},{"start":5445.57,"end":5448.05,"text":"我相信可能是比較務實的一個做法"},{"start":5448.87,"end":5451.75,"text":"那至於說就制的那個提撥吵吵的部分"},{"start":5451.75,"end":5452.59,"text":"或者是"},{"start":5452.59,"end":5455.07,"text":"年資的年資結晶的程序的部分"},{"start":5455.07,"end":5457.3099999999995,"text":"我相信他的比例都應該算是比較少"},{"start":5457.3099999999995,"end":5458.67,"text":"所以如果是不是有中央"},{"start":5460.24,"end":5462.24,"text":"然後鼓勵去輔導我們小微企業"},{"start":5462.24,"end":5464.04,"text":"我相信很多的企業大概都是"},{"start":5464.04,"end":5466,"text":"是認知上面的不足"},{"start":5466,"end":5467.24,"text":"而不是他不願意去做到"},{"start":5467.24,"end":5471.08,"text":"如果針對這些比較少數的這些企業"},{"start":5471.08,"end":5472.679999999999,"text":"能夠去一對一的輔導"},{"start":5472.679999999999,"end":5474.48,"text":"或者一對一的協助"},{"start":5474.48,"end":5477,"text":"我相信可能會比較務實的去處理這樣子"},{"start":5477,"end":5478.759999999999,"text":"然後最後一個題目就是"},{"start":5478.759999999999,"end":5481.08,"text":"專戶剩餘款項的領回的部分"},{"start":5481.68,"end":5483.56,"text":"這個部分大概也是希望是說"},{"start":5483.56,"end":5484.76,"text":"用用心去做導管"},{"start":5484.76,"end":5487.200000000001,"text":"那我們的企業把這個"},{"start":5487.200000000001,"end":5489.4400000000005,"text":"那個剩餘款項領回之後"},{"start":5489.4400000000005,"end":5492.200000000001,"text":"還能夠去直接導入到"},{"start":5492.200000000001,"end":5493.400000000001,"text":"照顧員工的這個部分"},{"start":5493.400000000001,"end":5495.52,"text":"我相信這可能還是比較務實的做法"},{"start":5495.52,"end":5496.04,"text":"那以上"},{"start":5496.69,"end":5497.37,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5499.25,"end":5501.17,"text":"謝謝楊子銘副秘書長"},{"start":5501.17,"end":5503.13,"text":"接下來請王榮福理事"},{"start":5513.429999999999,"end":5514.03,"text":"主席"},{"start":5514.63,"end":5516.83,"text":"今天的處理系官員"},{"start":5516.83,"end":5518.11,"text":"還有我們的委員"},{"start":5518.11,"end":5521.389999999999,"text":"感謝我們今天委員給我們公聽會"},{"start":5521.389999999999,"end":5522.55,"text":"給我們勞工"},{"start":5522.55,"end":5523.95,"text":"這樣的公聽會"},{"start":5523.95,"end":5524.87,"text":"我首先要"},{"start":5525.5599999999995,"end":5526.879999999999,"text":"破題一下"},{"start":5526.879999999999,"end":5528.32,"text":"他講到"},{"start":5528.32,"end":5529.839999999999,"text":"少主化的問題"},{"start":5529.839999999999,"end":5532.2,"text":"那我們政府官員你應該了解到"},{"start":5532.2,"end":5533.5599999999995,"text":"為什麼現在的"},{"start":5533.5599999999995,"end":5535.799999999999,"text":"少主化會產生到我們勞保人金"},{"start":5536.47,"end":5538.150000000001,"text":"因為現在的各位你看看"},{"start":5538.150000000001,"end":5540.75,"text":"剛剛我們的前面有一首專家講"},{"start":5540.75,"end":5542.110000000001,"text":"你現在少主化一年"},{"start":5542.110000000001,"end":5544.59,"text":"我們的出生率不到十萬人"},{"start":5545.45,"end":5547.49,"text":"那你有沒有想過"},{"start":5547.49,"end":5548.7699999999995,"text":"二十年三十年"},{"start":5548.7699999999995,"end":5550.13,"text":"八十年以後"},{"start":5550.13,"end":5551.17,"text":"那我們算八十年"},{"start":5551.17,"end":5552.97,"text":"我們現在從現在開始"},{"start":5552.97,"end":5554.09,"text":"不到十萬人"},{"start":5554.09,"end":5555.37,"text":"八十年以後我們台灣"},{"start":5556.0199999999995,"end":5558.0199999999995,"text":"只剩下八百萬人"},{"start":5558.0199999999995,"end":5559.299999999999,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":5559.299999999999,"end":5560.259999999999,"text":"你有沒有算過"},{"start":5560.259999999999,"end":5562.0199999999995,"text":"到底是要怎麼來"},{"start":5562.0199999999995,"end":5564.5,"text":"針對少主化的問題"},{"start":5564.5,"end":5566.339999999999,"text":"來給予說能夠增加"},{"start":5566.94,"end":5567.5,"text":"我們的"},{"start":5568.46,"end":5594.34,"text":"我們的"},{"start":5569.98,"end":5573.299999999999,"text":"我們年輕朋友他希望能夠生意"},{"start":5573.82,"end":5577.4,"text":"這個就是各位想現在我們兩萬三兩千三百萬人"},{"start":5577.919999999999,"end":5580.48,"text":"到八十年以後我們台灣剩下八百萬人"},{"start":5580.98,"end":5583.299999999999,"text":"反正這中間你還要扣掉"},{"start":5584.3,"end":5585.58,"text":"說這比較不好聽的"},{"start":5585.84,"end":5586.860000000001,"text":"可能又死亡的"},{"start":5587.120000000001,"end":5588.160000000001,"text":"你剩下多少人"},{"start":5588.660000000001,"end":5590.200000000001,"text":"這個就是少主化"},{"start":5590.46,"end":5591.740000000001,"text":"我給你一個例子"},{"start":5592.88,"end":5593.92,"text":"我家的小孩"},{"start":5594.75,"end":5596.03,"text":"大家都不敢生"},{"start":5596.56,"end":5597.120000000001,"text":"小的"},{"start":5597.95,"end":5598.89,"text":"你要生三個"},{"start":5599.15,"end":5601.45,"text":"那現在剛剛就講到新出的問題"},{"start":5602.12,"end":5603.36,"text":"他一個月五萬塊"},{"start":5603.62,"end":5604.9,"text":"我女兒生三個"},{"start":5605.5199999999995,"end":5606.5,"text":"要住房子"},{"start":5606.759999999999,"end":5607.5199999999995,"text":"那你什麼"},{"start":5608.44,"end":5611.219999999999,"text":"你怎麼去撫養到他敢生小孩"},{"start":5611.719999999999,"end":5614.04,"text":"所以他有時候看到很多小朋友"},{"start":5614.28,"end":5615.82,"text":"他生了那麼多小孩"},{"start":5616.08,"end":5617.36,"text":"他沒辦法去"},{"start":5617.62,"end":5619.4,"text":"他沒辦法去教育他"},{"start":5619.66,"end":5620.94,"text":"因為他的薪資不夠"},{"start":5621.46,"end":5623.759999999999,"text":"所以我說我家的小女兒"},{"start":5624.0199999999995,"end":5624.5199999999995,"text":"三個"},{"start":5624.78,"end":5626.0599999999995,"text":"三個小朋友都沒補習"},{"start":5626.929999999999,"end":5627.969999999999,"text":"因為他薪水不夠"},{"start":5628.469999999999,"end":5629.75,"text":"你怎麼去跟外面的"},{"start":5630.7699999999995,"end":5632.57,"text":"那個父老客去上課"},{"start":5632.83,"end":5633.589999999999,"text":"沒辦法"},{"start":5634.42,"end":5636.22,"text":"所以這個是到教育的問題"},{"start":5636.72,"end":5639.26,"text":"所以少主化針對我們的勞保財務"},{"start":5639.26,"end":5640.820000000001,"text":"真的是衝擊非常大"},{"start":5641.08,"end":5642.5,"text":"那我們希望各位官員"},{"start":5642.5,"end":5644.58,"text":"你們在訂製勞保的時候"},{"start":5645.08,"end":5646.12,"text":"你們應該了解到"},{"start":5647.25,"end":5650.69,"text":"你們對這樣的年輕未來的"},{"start":5651.94,"end":5654.26,"text":"勞保的問題你怎麼去解決"},{"start":5654.5199999999995,"end":5656.5599999999995,"text":"其實我們在基層勞工"},{"start":5656.82,"end":5657.32,"text":"各位"},{"start":5657.58,"end":5659.88,"text":"我是來自最基層最基層的勞工"},{"start":5660.88,"end":5663.64,"text":"那你說叫他們勞保要提撥"},{"start":5664.410000000001,"end":5665.67,"text":"到底是說你"},{"start":5665.93,"end":5667.990000000001,"text":"我們希望是最基層他提到到"},{"start":5668.2300000000005,"end":5669.51,"text":"6% 9% 10%"},{"start":5670.27,"end":5671.2300000000005,"text":"各位想一想"},{"start":5672.11,"end":5673.63,"text":"我們最基層勞工"},{"start":5673.889999999999,"end":5674.389999999999,"text":"他們都是"},{"start":5675.31,"end":5676.35,"text":"最基本工資"},{"start":5677.29,"end":5678.33,"text":"不到3萬塊"},{"start":5678.89,"end":5680.17,"text":"你說叫他們再說"},{"start":5680.67,"end":5681.450000000001,"text":"再提高"},{"start":5681.71,"end":5682.990000000001,"text":"現在6%"},{"start":5683.25,"end":5684.530000000001,"text":"那助體在6%"},{"start":5684.79,"end":5685.81,"text":"各位有沒有想看"},{"start":5686.31,"end":5687.59,"text":"他一個月3萬塊"},{"start":5688.19,"end":5689.669999999999,"text":"你要扣勞保健保"},{"start":5690.62,"end":5692.9400000000005,"text":"那你剩下你要叫他助體6%"},{"start":5693.2,"end":5693.7,"text":"夠嗎"},{"start":5694.65,"end":5695.929999999999,"text":"你回家怎麼生活"},{"start":5696.67,"end":5697.71,"text":"所以這個就是"},{"start":5697.97,"end":5699.81,"text":"我們勞動部這邊"},{"start":5700.07,"end":5701.87,"text":"你要考慮到我們基層勞工"},{"start":5702.150000000001,"end":5703.67,"text":"因為我是來自基層"},{"start":5704.46,"end":5705.7,"text":"我們的傳統產業"},{"start":5705.96,"end":5708.52,"text":"我發覺到他們去輔導他們公會的時候"},{"start":5709.32,"end":5709.92,"text":"他們"},{"start":5710.66,"end":5712.46,"text":"我問他說你們薪水多少"},{"start":5712.72,"end":5714.26,"text":"他們都是用基本工資"},{"start":5714.52,"end":5715.32,"text":"還有一個問題"},{"start":5716.349999999999,"end":5718.91,"text":"而且這些中小企業傳統產業"},{"start":5719.429999999999,"end":5720.469999999999,"text":"他給我們這個"},{"start":5720.969999999999,"end":5722.009999999999,"text":"基層勞工是用"},{"start":5722.53,"end":5723.03,"text":"用"},{"start":5723.29,"end":5725.089999999999,"text":"3萬塊就基本工資2萬"},{"start":5725.75,"end":5727.35,"text":"就是最低的"},{"start":5728.19,"end":5729.23,"text":"那各位想想看"},{"start":5729.3099999999995,"end":5732.589999999999,"text":"每次我們的因為每年就調薪到基本工資"},{"start":5733.51,"end":5734.450000000001,"text":"他們沒有辦法調"},{"start":5734.71,"end":5735.47,"text":"他沒有調啊"},{"start":5736.11,"end":5736.91,"text":"他們跟著"},{"start":5737.389999999999,"end":5739.95,"text":"繁榮筆卸配收這個我們的會員"},{"start":5740.21,"end":5741.75,"text":"他我們的基層勞工"},{"start":5742.009999999999,"end":5743.29,"text":"他現在是基本工資"},{"start":5743.549999999999,"end":5745.07,"text":"他已經工作了3年"},{"start":5745.589999999999,"end":5748.15,"text":"所以我們上從基本工資到3年以後"},{"start":5748.41,"end":5749.429999999999,"text":"還是基本工資"},{"start":5749.95,"end":5752.25,"text":"結果去年進來的新進人員"},{"start":5752.509999999999,"end":5753.79,"text":"還是基本工資"},{"start":5754.5199999999995,"end":5755.24,"text":"那你看看"},{"start":5755.48,"end":5756.5599999999995,"text":"這樣的基本工資"},{"start":5756.82,"end":5758.28,"text":"對一個新進"},{"start":5758.54,"end":5759.5599999999995,"text":"一個3、5年的員工"},{"start":5759.82,"end":5761.08,"text":"他還是跟新人一樣"},{"start":5761.62,"end":5762.639999999999,"text":"所以我是建議"},{"start":5763.16,"end":5765.96,"text":"在勞保勞動部的部分"},{"start":5766.44,"end":5768.04,"text":"你應該在基本工資的部分"},{"start":5768.28,"end":5769.08,"text":"針對一個"},{"start":5769.32,"end":5770.839999999999,"text":"比較資深的員工"},{"start":5771.099999999999,"end":5775.16,"text":"有一個機制能夠他跟著隨著物價能夠調"},{"start":5776.09,"end":5777.81,"text":"他們都希望他們靠著"},{"start":5778.05,"end":5779.01,"text":"因為我問他們"},{"start":5779.530000000001,"end":5781.05,"text":"他們都是希望靠"},{"start":5781.71,"end":5782.29,"text":"加班"},{"start":5783.65,"end":5785.73,"text":"來扣充他們的薪水"},{"start":5786.21,"end":5786.929999999999,"text":"那各位"},{"start":5787.17,"end":5788.69,"text":"各位官員你們想想看"},{"start":5789.8099999999995,"end":5791.33,"text":"他們都必須靠加班"},{"start":5791.57,"end":5793.889999999999,"text":"來養活這個家庭"},{"start":5794.129999999999,"end":5796.53,"text":"那能夠在我們的"},{"start":5797.21,"end":5798.650000000001,"text":"薪水部分能夠嗎"},{"start":5798.89,"end":5799.85,"text":"再來就是"},{"start":5800.33,"end":5801.13,"text":"剛剛講的"},{"start":5802.08,"end":5804.4,"text":"勞退薪資的部分你們要改善"},{"start":5804.64,"end":5805.92,"text":"到現在是6%"},{"start":5806.44,"end":5807.2,"text":"你說真的"},{"start":5807.44,"end":5809.76,"text":"6%對他們3萬塊來講"},{"start":5810.46,"end":5811.58,"text":"在他們退休的時候"},{"start":5811.820000000001,"end":5813.900000000001,"text":"能夠養活後面退休的生活"},{"start":5814.14,"end":5814.7,"text":"也不夠"},{"start":5815.42,"end":5816.7,"text":"所以我們希望是在"},{"start":5817.26,"end":5817.9800000000005,"text":"退休以後"},{"start":5818.46,"end":5819.5,"text":"能夠在"},{"start":5819.74,"end":5820.78,"text":"提高的部分"},{"start":5821.02,"end":5822.62,"text":"我們的勞動部官員這邊"},{"start":5822.860000000001,"end":5825.42,"text":"能夠提高到9%、10%這個部分"},{"start":5825.900000000001,"end":5826.54,"text":"那還有"},{"start":5826.78,"end":5827.66,"text":"就是我們的"},{"start":5827.900000000001,"end":5830.3,"text":"現在勞動部這邊時常會講"},{"start":5830.78,"end":5832.06,"text":"我們的經濟多好"},{"start":5832.3,"end":5834.7,"text":"我們的平均薪水"},{"start":5834.9400000000005,"end":5836.38,"text":"全省勞工薪水多少"},{"start":5836.860000000001,"end":5838.14,"text":"那各位有沒有想想看"},{"start":5838.38,"end":5839.42,"text":"那勾胎名的薪水"},{"start":5839.82,"end":5841.74,"text":"一億給我3萬塊"},{"start":5841.9800000000005,"end":5842.78,"text":"那我平均多少"},{"start":5843.02,"end":5844.54,"text":"我平均薪水就5千萬"},{"start":5845.19,"end":5846.629999999999,"text":"所以不能用這樣算"},{"start":5860.98,"end":5862.339999999999,"text":"方式來列比說"},{"start":5862.5,"end":5863.78,"text":"我們的員工勞工"},{"start":5864.0199999999995,"end":5866.0199999999995,"text":"我們的平均薪水已經那麼多了"},{"start":5866.259999999999,"end":5867.78,"text":"是不能用這樣來列比"},{"start":5868.0199999999995,"end":5870.58,"text":"所以我們的經濟成長的利益分配"},{"start":5871.139999999999,"end":5873.0599999999995,"text":"應該回到我們的勞工手中"},{"start":5873.93,"end":5876.17,"text":"現在我們台灣經濟近年來"},{"start":5876.490000000001,"end":5879.530000000001,"text":"大家看看我們的AI熱潮高速成長"},{"start":5880.06,"end":5882.38,"text":"但就跟以往的舊問題一樣"},{"start":5882.91,"end":5883.95,"text":"GDP的成長"},{"start":5884.9,"end":5887.139999999999,"text":"經濟主持並沒有公平反映到"},{"start":5887.54,"end":5889.38,"text":"我們勞工的薪水成長方面"},{"start":5890.5199999999995,"end":5892.679999999999,"text":"這也凸顯著政府常年中春季"},{"start":5893,"end":5893.639999999999,"text":"全分配"},{"start":5894.18,"end":5896.34,"text":"眾僱主勤勞工的政策缺失"},{"start":5897,"end":5899.56,"text":"會議政府應該以政策框枕行刑"},{"start":5900.25,"end":5901.6900000000005,"text":"經濟成果分配不均"},{"start":5901.93,"end":5905.05,"text":"和利益嚴重傾水為財團所奪的社會"},{"start":5905.45,"end":5907.21,"text":"社會意識發展"},{"start":5907.53,"end":5909.53,"text":"台灣少主化的現象"},{"start":5909.93,"end":5912.25,"text":"偽弱是最熱鬧的反訴"},{"start":5912.7300000000005,"end":5914.09,"text":"而議員為政者"},{"start":5914.33,"end":5915.61,"text":"再不徹底改革的話"},{"start":5915.93,"end":5917.21,"text":"即使台灣喊口號"},{"start":5917.53,"end":5918.65,"text":"喊了政廳歌聲"},{"start":5919.44,"end":5920.639999999999,"text":"也是淪雷口號"},{"start":5921.12,"end":5922,"text":"像我們勞工"},{"start":5922.32,"end":5923.5199999999995,"text":"剛剛在門口這樣喊了"},{"start":5923.759999999999,"end":5924.719999999999,"text":"在利益門口喊"},{"start":5925.2,"end":5926.16,"text":"那你喊了半天"},{"start":5926.4,"end":5927.759999999999,"text":"我看這樣已經喊了20年"},{"start":5928.32,"end":5929.599999999999,"text":"我們的提撥"},{"start":5930.08,"end":5931.04,"text":"我們的提撥率"},{"start":5931.36,"end":5932.4,"text":"還有我們的基本"},{"start":5932.96,"end":5935.759999999999,"text":"老闆的天花板45,800"},{"start":5936,"end":5936.96,"text":"見過這麼多年"},{"start":5937.28,"end":5938.32,"text":"都沒有來改善"},{"start":5938.95,"end":5940.87,"text":"那你向我們的勞工"},{"start":5941.11,"end":5943.67,"text":"如何能夠在這個勞保年金"},{"start":5943.99,"end":5945.51,"text":"能夠能夠多"},{"start":5946.07,"end":5947.2699999999995,"text":"各位觀衆想想看"},{"start":5947.59,"end":5948.55,"text":"現在我們的勞保"},{"start":5949.03,"end":5951.349999999999,"text":"年金的平均年"},{"start":5951.67,"end":5953.03,"text":"平均年"},{"start":5953.349999999999,"end":5955.83,"text":"首領的才1萬7左右"},{"start":5956.5,"end":5957.9400000000005,"text":"所以他做了30年"},{"start":5958.18,"end":5959.9400000000005,"text":"做了30年才1萬7"},{"start":5960.34,"end":5962.5,"text":"那如果你這個天花板不掀開的話"},{"start":5963.2,"end":5965.76,"text":"那你怎麼來照顧到我們勞工"},{"start":5966.16,"end":5968.24,"text":"這樣的基層勞工"},{"start":5968.5599999999995,"end":5970.24,"text":"而且45,800說真的"},{"start":5970.9,"end":5973.0599999999995,"text":"還不是所有的勞工能夠得到"},{"start":5973.91,"end":5975.35,"text":"很多我們的基層員工"},{"start":5975.59,"end":5976.55,"text":"他們到退休"},{"start":5977.29,"end":5979.85,"text":"他們的薪水可能就3萬5"},{"start":5980.17,"end":5981.6900000000005,"text":"不是到45,800"},{"start":5982.09,"end":5983.45,"text":"所以剛剛我們的經濟口子"},{"start":5983.6900000000005,"end":5985.37,"text":"好的經濟我們的經濟成長多少"},{"start":5985.610000000001,"end":5986.41,"text":"說真的"},{"start":5986.650000000001,"end":5988.17,"text":"我們勞工都沒有得到"},{"start":5988.41,"end":5990.33,"text":"所以今天感謝我們立委"},{"start":5990.570000000001,"end":5991.85,"text":"辦這個公聽會"},{"start":5992.17,"end":5993.85,"text":"給我們最基層的勞工"},{"start":5994.17,"end":5995.21,"text":"能夠在這邊"},{"start":5995.53,"end":5997.6900000000005,"text":"講給我們主事者"},{"start":5997.93,"end":5998.81,"text":"我們的政府官員"},{"start":5999.05,"end":6001.21,"text":"能夠證實到我們的基層勞工"},{"start":6001.53,"end":6004.25,"text":"未來的退休的生活生計"},{"start":6004.570000000001,"end":6005.85,"text":"給我們這樣一個保障"},{"start":6006.09,"end":6007.070000000001,"text":"我們盡頭的答應"},{"start":6007.09,"end":6008.85,"text":"也是情況"},{"start":6008.97,"end":6009.85,"text":" inverted"},{"start":6010.570000000001,"end":6017.59,"text":"G"},{"start":6017.6900000000005,"end":6019.01,"text":"其實我們今天五點多"},{"start":6019.21,"end":6020.25,"text":"我們都有一個節目"},{"start":6020.490000000001,"end":6021.33,"text":"就是要分享一年前的"},{"start":6021.650000000001,"end":6022.97,"text":"你是坐過一段開會"},{"start":6023.21,"end":6023.77,"text":"問我們的問題"},{"start":6024.05,"end":6025.21,"text":"對,像 cocoa"},{"start":6025.450000000001,"end":6027.05,"text":"一上餐勚alım"},{"start":6027.05,"end":6028.570000000001,"text":"完全沒有認識"},{"start":6028.81,"end":6029.990000000001,"text":"可是我們前幾天"},{"start":6030.33,"end":6030.6900000000005,"text":"你有沒有去講"},{"start":6030.77,"end":6031.17,"text":"我們一上餐"},{"start":6031.35,"end":6032.17,"text":"你們不是思考很久"},{"start":6032.370000000001,"end":6035.13,"text":"是 track"},{"start":6007.41,"end":6009.41,"text":"謝謝王文福理事"},{"start":6009.8099999999995,"end":6012.21,"text":"宗教兵宗教兵委員不在"},{"start":6013.84,"end":6017.04,"text":"接下來請徐英秀副主任委員"},{"start":6040.42,"end":6043.82,"text":"感謝主席議會委員"},{"start":6043.82,"end":6046.82,"text":"感謝主席議會委員"},{"start":6046.82,"end":6049.32,"text":"與主管單位專家寫者"},{"start":6049.32,"end":6050.82,"text":"勞方之方"},{"start":6050.82,"end":6053.22,"text":"與現場的媒體記者"},{"start":6053.22,"end":6054.22,"text":"大家好"},{"start":6054.22,"end":6055.72,"text":"我們是自己的"},{"start":6055.72,"end":6058.52,"text":"我們應該是心手相連"},{"start":6058.52,"end":6059.82,"text":"範圍思考"},{"start":6059.82,"end":6060.82,"text":"同理心"},{"start":6060.82,"end":6062.52,"text":"應該會有好的方向"},{"start":6062.52,"end":6064.52,"text":"感謝今天的公聽會"},{"start":6064.52,"end":6066.82,"text":"我是來自全國商業總會"},{"start":6066.82,"end":6069.52,"text":"剛才有很多的業者專家"},{"start":6069.620000000001,"end":6071.820000000001,"text":"提出了很多很寶貴的意見"},{"start":6071.820000000001,"end":6074.120000000001,"text":"我覺得應該要非常的感恩"},{"start":6074.120000000001,"end":6077.120000000001,"text":"因為每個人都願意在不同的領域"},{"start":6077.120000000001,"end":6078.52,"text":"用不同的面向"},{"start":6078.52,"end":6080.52,"text":"提出主觀的一個看法"},{"start":6080.52,"end":6081.820000000001,"text":"可以提供我們"},{"start":6082.51,"end":6084.610000000001,"text":"勞動部作為這個制度"},{"start":6084.610000000001,"end":6086.71,"text":"是不是應該要調整"},{"start":6086.71,"end":6088.31,"text":"如何調整最佳"},{"start":6088.31,"end":6091.110000000001,"text":"來符合今後我們時代的發展"},{"start":6091.110000000001,"end":6092.91,"text":"以及產業的成長"},{"start":6096.31,"end":6099.410000000001,"text":"商種支持政府急早因應"},{"start":6099.410000000001,"end":6101.21,"text":"也認為退休制度"},{"start":6101.21,"end":6104.21,"text":"必須朝向永續發展方向調整"},{"start":6105.12,"end":6108.42,"text":"制度改革除保障勞工退休權益外"},{"start":6108.42,"end":6111.42,"text":"也應兼顧政府財政責任"},{"start":6111.42,"end":6112.82,"text":"企業經營環境"},{"start":6112.82,"end":6115.12,"text":"及整體經濟發展"},{"start":6115.12,"end":6116.82,"text":"透過制度調整"},{"start":6116.82,"end":6118.5199999999995,"text":"以多元措施"},{"start":6118.5199999999995,"end":6123.0199999999995,"text":"逐步建立更穩健的退休保障體系"},{"start":6123.0199999999995,"end":6126.12,"text":"商種支持提升勞工退休保障"},{"start":6126.12,"end":6129.12,"text":"但制度調整應閒系"},{"start":6129.12,"end":6130.12,"text":"行系漸進"},{"start":6130.87,"end":6133.17,"text":"兼顧企業承受人力"},{"start":6133.17,"end":6135.67,"text":"不宜以增加企業負擔"},{"start":6135.67,"end":6137.87,"text":"作為主要改革方向"},{"start":6137.87,"end":6139.97,"text":"而應透過政府企業"},{"start":6139.97,"end":6141.87,"text":"與勞工共同努力"},{"start":6141.87,"end":6144.47,"text":"讓退休制度更加健全"},{"start":6145.18,"end":6146.68,"text":"更具永續性"},{"start":6147.48,"end":6152.28,"text":"對於少子化對勞保財政的衝擊與因應"},{"start":6152.28,"end":6155.379999999999,"text":"今天勞保面臨財政財務壓力"},{"start":6155.379999999999,"end":6157.379999999999,"text":"並非企業所能左右"},{"start":6157.379999999999,"end":6159.98,"text":"而是少子化、高齡化"},{"start":6159.98,"end":6161.379999999999,"text":"平均壽命延長"},{"start":6161.379999999999,"end":6164.179999999999,"text":"以及制度設計及多重因素"},{"start":6164.179999999999,"end":6165.679999999999,"text":"共同造成的結果"},{"start":6166.36,"end":6169.16,"text":"這是整個社會共同面對的問題"},{"start":6169.77,"end":6172.77,"text":"政府既是制度規劃者"},{"start":6172.77,"end":6175.77,"text":"也應承擔更多制度責任"},{"start":6175.77,"end":6178.570000000001,"text":"不宜由企業前述買單"},{"start":6178.570000000001,"end":6181.070000000001,"text":"目前勞保會雇主負擔7成"},{"start":6181.070000000001,"end":6183.070000000001,"text":"勞工2成、政府1成"},{"start":6183.070000000001,"end":6185.27,"text":"企業已經承擔"},{"start":6187.19,"end":6188.49,"text":"保費負擔"},{"start":6188.49,"end":6191.49,"text":"未來如果因應勞保財務需要"},{"start":6191.49,"end":6194.49,"text":"調整制度或增加財源"},{"start":6194.49,"end":6198.19,"text":"建議政府應該負起更多制度責任"},{"start":6198.19,"end":6201.19,"text":"優先檢討現行保費分擔比例"},{"start":6201.75,"end":6205.75,"text":"制度提高政府財政支持責任"},{"start":6205.75,"end":6207.75,"text":"減輕企業負擔"},{"start":6208.29,"end":6211.29,"text":"企業近年來除了面臨最低工資調整外"},{"start":6211.29,"end":6215.79,"text":"還要承受切工、切柴、定價、研材料"},{"start":6215.79,"end":6218.29,"text":"及營運成本上升的壓力"},{"start":6218.29,"end":6222.29,"text":"如果未來改則能以增加企業負擔"},{"start":6222.29,"end":6223.79,"text":"作為主要方向"},{"start":6223.79,"end":6224.79,"text":"不僅會"},{"start":6225.67,"end":6227.17,"text":"影響企業經營"},{"start":6227.17,"end":6228.67,"text":"也可能影響就業機會"},{"start":6228.67,"end":6230.17,"text":"與整體經濟發展"},{"start":6231.31,"end":6232.31,"text":"商總建議"},{"start":6232.31,"end":6237.31,"text":"勞保改革應由政府、企業及勞工共同承擔"},{"start":6237.31,"end":6241.31,"text":"但政府身為制度的規劃者及最後保障者"},{"start":6241.31,"end":6244.31,"text":"應負有更大的財政責任"},{"start":6244.93,"end":6248.93,"text":"勞工退休新舊自治比較與改革"},{"start":6249.48,"end":6250.48,"text":"商總認為"},{"start":6250.48,"end":6254.48,"text":"現在很多的中小企業已經很辛苦"},{"start":6254.48,"end":6257.48,"text":"建議維持現行法定6%的提繳"},{"start":6258.46,"end":6260.46,"text":"政府也可以鼓勵企業"},{"start":6260.46,"end":6265.46,"text":"並透過租稅優惠、獎勵措施及其他政策誘因"},{"start":6265.46,"end":6267.46,"text":"吸引提高、提早利"},{"start":6268.25,"end":6271.25,"text":"而不是法律強制大家一體提高"},{"start":6271.25,"end":6275.25,"text":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百分之八"},{"start":6947.15,"end":6949.15,"text":"或者是百分之九的提交率"},{"start":6949.15,"end":6951.15,"text":"我們討論的是"},{"start":6951.15,"end":6953.15,"text":"當一個勞工辛苦"},{"start":6953.15,"end":6955.15,"text":"四十年之後"},{"start":6955.15,"end":6957.15,"text":"是不是能有一個安心"},{"start":6957.15,"end":6959.15,"text":"有尊嚴的退休生活"},{"start":6959.15,"end":6961.15,"text":"勞退新制從民國"},{"start":6961.15,"end":6963.15,"text":"九十四年到現在"},{"start":6963.15,"end":6965.15,"text":"已經超過二十年"},{"start":6965.15,"end":6967.15,"text":"當年政府曾經跟社會承諾"},{"start":6967.15,"end":6969.15,"text":"新制會先求有"},{"start":6969.15,"end":6971.15,"text":"再求好"},{"start":6971.15,"end":6973.15,"text":"依照經濟發展跟社會環境"},{"start":6973.15,"end":6975.15,"text":"來逐步檢討 逐步改善"},{"start":6976.73,"end":6978.73,"text":"但是啊 二十年過去了"},{"start":6978.73,"end":6980.73,"text":"制度一直存在"},{"start":6980.73,"end":6982.73,"text":"改善卻遲遲沒有到來"},{"start":6983.36,"end":6985.36,"text":"僱主法定最低提交率"},{"start":6985.36,"end":6987.36,"text":"二十年來始終留在六趴"},{"start":6987.36,"end":6989.36,"text":"從來沒有調整"},{"start":6990.26,"end":6992.26,"text":"但是這二十年之間"},{"start":6992.26,"end":6994.26,"text":"台灣經歷了巨大的變化"},{"start":6994.43,"end":6996.43,"text":"經濟成長了 企業獲利增加了"},{"start":6996.43,"end":6998.43,"text":"房價上漲了"},{"start":6998.43,"end":7000.43,"text":"物價也提高了"},{"start":7000.43,"end":7002.43,"text":"醫療支出也持續增加"},{"start":7002.43,"end":7004.43,"text":"唯一沒有跟著時代一起進步的"},{"start":7004.43,"end":7006.43,"text":"就是很多我們勞工"},{"start":7006.43,"end":7008.43,"text":"的退休保障制度設計"},{"start":7008.43,"end":7010.43,"text":"許多基層勞工"},{"start":7010.43,"end":7012.43,"text":"每天努力工作"},{"start":7012.43,"end":7014.43,"text":"但是卻還是"},{"start":7014.43,"end":7016.43,"text":"擔心說退休之後的生活"},{"start":7016.43,"end":7018.43,"text":"很多人不是害怕退休"},{"start":7018.43,"end":7020.43,"text":"是不敢退休"},{"start":7020.43,"end":7022.43,"text":"因為他們不知道退休之後"},{"start":7022.43,"end":7024.43,"text":"每個月的生活費從哪裡來"},{"start":7024.43,"end":7026.43,"text":"不知道如果身體"},{"start":7026.43,"end":7028.43,"text":"出了問題是否還有能力"},{"start":7028.43,"end":7030.43,"text":"來負擔醫療費用"},{"start":7030.43,"end":7032.43,"text":"更不希望自己辛苦了一輩子"},{"start":7032.43,"end":7034.43,"text":"最後面就成了家人的負擔"},{"start":7036.69,"end":7038.69,"text":"我相信"},{"start":7038.09,"end":7040.09,"text":"這不是任何一個立法委員"},{"start":7040.09,"end":7042.09,"text":"願意看到的結果"},{"start":7042.07,"end":7044.07,"text":"因此"},{"start":7043.22,"end":7045.22,"text":"今天佩祥代表黨團提出"},{"start":7045.22,"end":7047.22,"text":"兩點建議"},{"start":7047.22,"end":7049.22,"text":"第一支持修正勞工退休金條例"},{"start":7049.22,"end":7051.22,"text":"提高僱主的法定"},{"start":7051.22,"end":7053.22,"text":"最低提交率"},{"start":7053.22,"end":7055.22,"text":"並建立法定的定期"},{"start":7055.22,"end":7057.22,"text":"檢討機制"},{"start":7057.22,"end":7059.22,"text":"至於最後面是8% 9%"},{"start":7059.22,"end":7061.22,"text":"還是採逐年提高的方式"},{"start":7061.22,"end":7063.22,"text":"都可以透過我們"},{"start":7063.22,"end":7065.22,"text":"公聽會透過委員會來充分討論"},{"start":7065.22,"end":7067.22,"text":"兼顧勞工保障"},{"start":7067.22,"end":7069.22,"text":"跟企業負擔"},{"start":7069.22,"end":7071.22,"text":"但是我們至少要建立一個制度"},{"start":7071.22,"end":7073.22,"text":"勞保提交率能夠隨著經濟成長"},{"start":7073.22,"end":7075.22,"text":"薪資水準"},{"start":7075.22,"end":7077.22,"text":"跟物價變動"},{"start":7077.22,"end":7079.22,"text":"來定期檢討"},{"start":7079.22,"end":7081.22,"text":"而不是每隔20年"},{"start":7081.22,"end":7083.22,"text":"再重新討論一次"},{"start":7082.59,"end":7084.59,"text":"制度最大的問題"},{"start":7085.02,"end":7087.02,"text":"不是調整"},{"start":7087.02,"end":7089.02,"text":"是完全沒有調整"},{"start":7088.37,"end":7090.37,"text":"第二行政院跟勞動部"},{"start":7090.37,"end":7094.37,"text":"必須提出完整的改革配套"},{"start":7094.37,"end":7096.37,"text":"兼顧勞工保障跟永續企業發展"},{"start":7096.37,"end":7098.37,"text":"我相信"},{"start":7098.37,"end":7100.37,"text":"我也理解中小企業"},{"start":7100.37,"end":7102.37,"text":"的確面臨到經營的壓力"},{"start":7102.37,"end":7104.37,"text":"因此改革不能只有一句"},{"start":7104.37,"end":7106.37,"text":"提高提交率"},{"start":7108.32,"end":7110.32,"text":"政府應該同步提出配套措施"},{"start":7110.32,"end":7112.32,"text":"例如分階段"},{"start":7112.32,"end":7114.32,"text":"實行租稅優惠"},{"start":7114.32,"end":7116.32,"text":"協助中小企業降低成本"},{"start":7116.32,"end":7118.32,"text":"讓企業有能力配合改革"},{"start":7118.32,"end":7120.32,"text":"也讓勞工能夠真正受惠"},{"start":7121.85,"end":7123.85,"text":"照顧勞工不應該變成勞資對立"},{"start":7123.85,"end":7125.85,"text":"真正好的政策"},{"start":7125.85,"end":7127.85,"text":"是讓勞工更安心"},{"start":7127.85,"end":7129.85,"text":"也讓企業更有競爭力"},{"start":7130.46,"end":7132.46,"text":"最後"},{"start":7131.49,"end":7133.49,"text":"我想說出去真心話"},{"start":7133.6,"end":7135.6,"text":"台灣今天能夠有這樣的經濟成果"},{"start":7135.6,"end":7137.6,"text":"有這樣的經濟成績"},{"start":7137.6,"end":7139.6,"text":"不是因為少數的成功企業"},{"start":7139.6,"end":7141.6,"text":"更是因為千千萬萬勞工"},{"start":7141.6,"end":7143.6,"text":"數十年來默默付出"},{"start":7143.6,"end":7145.6,"text":"他們可能沒有站上舞台"},{"start":7145.6,"end":7147.6,"text":"沒有美光燈"},{"start":7147.6,"end":7149.6,"text":"沒有嶄生"},{"start":7149.31,"end":7151.31,"text":"但是每一座工廠"},{"start":7151.31,"end":7153.31,"text":"每一條生產線"},{"start":7153.31,"end":7155.31,"text":"每一輛貨車"},{"start":7155.31,"end":7157.31,"text":"每一間餐廳"},{"start":7157.31,"end":7159.31,"text":"每一座工地"},{"start":7159.31,"end":7161.31,"text":"每一家醫院都有他們努力工作的背影"},{"start":7161.31,"end":7163.31,"text":"他們把人生最精華的歲月"},{"start":7163.31,"end":7165.31,"text":"奉獻給社會"},{"start":7164.4,"end":7166.4,"text":"因此我們沒有理由"},{"start":7166.4,"end":7168.4,"text":"讓他們在人生的最後一段路"},{"start":7168.4,"end":7170.4,"text":"還要為退休生活"},{"start":7170.4,"end":7172.4,"text":"而焦慮"},{"start":7172.21,"end":7174.21,"text":"退休"},{"start":7173.63,"end":7175.63,"text":"不應該是勞工人生的懸崖"},{"start":7175.63,"end":7177.63,"text":"而是應該辛苦了一輩子之後"},{"start":7177.63,"end":7179.63,"text":"國家給予的一份安心"},{"start":7179.63,"end":7181.63,"text":"我也期待"},{"start":7181.63,"end":7183.63,"text":"朝野各黨行政機關"},{"start":7183.63,"end":7185.63,"text":"以及勞資雙方都能以"},{"start":7185.63,"end":7187.63,"text":"最大的誠意來推動改革"},{"start":7187.63,"end":7189.63,"text":"共同完成勞退制度的下一步"},{"start":7189.63,"end":7191.63,"text":"讓每一個努力工作的人"},{"start":7191.63,"end":7193.63,"text":"都能相信"},{"start":7193.63,"end":7195.63,"text":"今天的付出未來"},{"start":7195.63,"end":7197.63,"text":"一定會得到應有的報酬"},{"start":7197.63,"end":7199.63,"text":"今天會拼命"},{"start":7199.46,"end":7201.46,"text":"將會換來一個有尊嚴的晚年"},{"start":7203.18,"end":7205.18,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7205.44,"end":7207.44,"text":"謝謝林佩祥委員的發言"},{"start":7208.02,"end":7210.02,"text":"接下來請何正嘉"},{"start":7210.77,"end":7212.77,"text":"時間好"},{"start":7212.76,"end":7214.76,"text":"這個關係不好的事"},{"start":7214.76,"end":7216.76,"text":"我們先休息十分鐘"},{"start":7827.26,"end":7829.26,"text":"晚安"},{"start":7828.48,"end":7830.48,"text":"好現在繼續開會"},{"start":7830.48,"end":7832.48,"text":"接下來請何正嘉理事長"},{"start":7843.04,"end":7845.04,"text":"主席"},{"start":7845.04,"end":7847.04,"text":"各位委員還有學者朋友"},{"start":7847.04,"end":7849.04,"text":"以及工會的前輩大家好"},{"start":7849.04,"end":7851.04,"text":"我是台灣工人鬥陣總工會"},{"start":7851.04,"end":7853.04,"text":"的理事長何正嘉"},{"start":7853.04,"end":7855.04,"text":"今天我主要是要向大家報告"},{"start":7855.04,"end":7857.04,"text":"台灣勞工退休保障"},{"start":7857.04,"end":7859.04,"text":"嚴重不足的問題"},{"start":7859.43,"end":7861.43,"text":"勞動部在今年6月30日"},{"start":7861.43,"end":7863.43,"text":"發布了一個新聞稿"},{"start":7863.34,"end":7865.34,"text":"內容指出近年來"},{"start":7865.34,"end":7867.34,"text":"有機會惡劣是民眾反應"},{"start":7867.34,"end":7869.34,"text":"因為領取勞保年金會隨著物價"},{"start":7869.34,"end":7871.34,"text":"調高金額"},{"start":7871.34,"end":7873.34,"text":"導致失去低收入戶或"},{"start":7873.34,"end":7875.34,"text":"縮容安置等社會救助資源"},{"start":7877.08,"end":7879.08,"text":"所以勞動部提出了可拋棄勞保年金的政策"},{"start":7879.08,"end":7881.08,"text":"這根本是"},{"start":7881.08,"end":7883.08,"text":"徹頭徹尾的搞錯重點"},{"start":7883.08,"end":7885.08,"text":"核心問題是勞工退休生活"},{"start":7886.24,"end":7888.24,"text":"保障嚴重不足"},{"start":7888.24,"end":7890.24,"text":"不足到有人認為低收入戶的"},{"start":7890.24,"end":7892.24,"text":"社會救助資源都比勞保年金"},{"start":7892.24,"end":7894.24,"text":"和退休金還更有保障"},{"start":7895.46,"end":7897.46,"text":"政府不反思現在的"},{"start":7897.46,"end":7899.46,"text":"退休制度有多少問題"},{"start":7899.46,"end":7901.46,"text":"還宣稱自己貼近弱勢名義"},{"start":7901.46,"end":7903.46,"text":"事實上"},{"start":7903.46,"end":7905.46,"text":"很多的退休勞工"},{"start":7905.46,"end":7907.46,"text":"本身就是弱勢族群"},{"start":7909.19,"end":7911.19,"text":"那我們從兩個簡單的數據推算"},{"start":7911.19,"end":7914.19,"text":"從2025年勞保年金平均"},{"start":7914.19,"end":7916.19,"text":"給付大約是"},{"start":7916.19,"end":7918.19,"text":"19312元"},{"start":7919.4,"end":7921.4,"text":"和2025年"},{"start":7921.09,"end":7923.09,"text":"勞務退金除以給付的建樹"},{"start":7923.09,"end":7925.09,"text":"每個人的平均"},{"start":7925.83,"end":7927.83,"text":"每月"},{"start":7927.87,"end":7929.87,"text":"平均領取的金額僅有"},{"start":7929.87,"end":7931.87,"text":"5566元"},{"start":7932.16,"end":7934.16,"text":"這是很簡單的數學題"},{"start":7934.16,"end":7936.16,"text":"兩者相加之後"},{"start":7936.16,"end":7938.16,"text":"可以得到2025年一個勞工退休之後"},{"start":7938.16,"end":7940.16,"text":"每個月平均"},{"start":7940.16,"end":7942.16,"text":"可以領取到24878元"},{"start":7943.09,"end":7945.09,"text":"是不到25000元"},{"start":7945.09,"end":7947.09,"text":"那這代表著什麼意思呢"},{"start":7947.82,"end":7949.82,"text":"2025年台北市新北市"},{"start":7949.82,"end":7951.82,"text":"桃園市的中低收入戶"},{"start":7951.62,"end":7954.62,"text":"標準分別為29113"},{"start":7954.62,"end":7956.62,"text":"25350"},{"start":7957,"end":7959,"text":"25152元"},{"start":7959,"end":7961,"text":"那也就是說一個勞工的退休生活"},{"start":7961,"end":7963,"text":"在雙北和桃園"},{"start":7963,"end":7965,"text":"就是差不多等同"},{"start":7965,"end":7967,"text":"中低收入戶生活水平"},{"start":7968.42,"end":7972.42,"text":"而2025年桃園省中低收入戶的標準是"},{"start":7972.42,"end":7974.42,"text":"23273元"},{"start":7974.42,"end":7976.42,"text":"已經快要趕上"},{"start":7976.42,"end":7978.42,"text":"2025年勞保和"},{"start":7978.42,"end":7980.42,"text":"勞退給付的總和"},{"start":7980.96,"end":7982.96,"text":"可見台灣勞工的老年退休生活"},{"start":7982.96,"end":7984.96,"text":"是多麼的沒有尊嚴"},{"start":7985.6,"end":7987.6,"text":"那我們來看一下勞動部現在所提出的改革方案"},{"start":7987.6,"end":7989.6,"text":"對於勞保工作的主張"},{"start":7989.6,"end":7991.6,"text":"現在已有36%的勞工"},{"start":7991.6,"end":7993.6,"text":"已經卡在45800最高上限"},{"start":7993.6,"end":7995.6,"text":"所以我們要求要提高"},{"start":7997.99,"end":7999.99,"text":"勞動部跟我們講"},{"start":7999.99,"end":8001.99,"text":"跟我們說會影響財務狀況"},{"start":8001.99,"end":8003.99,"text":"所以不調整"},{"start":8003.99,"end":8005.99,"text":"那勞退部份勞動部就回應"},{"start":8005.99,"end":8007.99,"text":"鼓勵勞工自體"},{"start":8007.99,"end":8009.99,"text":"但是什麼樣的勞工"},{"start":8009.99,"end":8011.99,"text":"有能力自體呢"},{"start":8011.71,"end":8013.71,"text":"從立法院114年預算評估報告裡"},{"start":8013.71,"end":8015.71,"text":"我們可以看到"},{"start":8015.71,"end":8017.71,"text":"高所得的勞工自體的比例就是"},{"start":8017.71,"end":8019.71,"text":"比中所得的勞工還要高"},{"start":8019.71,"end":8021.71,"text":"那為什麼呢"},{"start":8021.71,"end":8023.71,"text":"因為中低所得的勞工"},{"start":8023.71,"end":8025.71,"text":"他的薪水可能就只能勉強"},{"start":8025.71,"end":8027.71,"text":"打平生活的基本支出而已"},{"start":8027.71,"end":8029.71,"text":"根本沒有餘裕"},{"start":8029.71,"end":8031.71,"text":"去自體"},{"start":8031.71,"end":8033.71,"text":"那我也向各位報告實際的數據"},{"start":8033.71,"end":8035.71,"text":"薪資11萬以上的"},{"start":8035.71,"end":8037.71,"text":"勞工大概"},{"start":8037.71,"end":8039.71,"text":"僅有一半是自體的"},{"start":8039.71,"end":8041.71,"text":"但是薪資在2萬8到2萬6之間的勞工"},{"start":8041.71,"end":8043.71,"text":"自體的比例只有10%"},{"start":8046.4,"end":8048.4,"text":"這也會發生兩個效果"},{"start":8048.4,"end":8050.4,"text":"首先薪資越高的勞工"},{"start":8050.4,"end":8052.4,"text":"他反而能在自體60%享有"},{"start":8052.4,"end":8054.4,"text":"免稅額度"},{"start":8054.4,"end":8056.4,"text":"但薪資越低的勞工就與這個制度無緣"},{"start":8059.13,"end":8061.13,"text":"在分配投資收益的時候"},{"start":8061.13,"end":8063.13,"text":"高薪的勞工再加上自體"},{"start":8063.13,"end":8065.13,"text":"整體投入勞退"},{"start":8065.13,"end":8067.13,"text":"基金的金額比較高"},{"start":8067.13,"end":8069.13,"text":"他又可以獲得更高的收益分配"},{"start":8069.13,"end":8071.13,"text":"這就無助於政府進行社會"},{"start":8072.73,"end":8074.73,"text":"所以從分配的職責"},{"start":8074.73,"end":8076.73,"text":"反而讓高薪的勞工"},{"start":8076.73,"end":8078.73,"text":"更有機會因制度而獲利"},{"start":8078.73,"end":8080.73,"text":"而低薪的勞工只能自己想辦法"},{"start":8080.66,"end":8082.66,"text":"勞工退休薪資不是一支股票或金融商品"},{"start":8082.66,"end":8084.66,"text":"他是勞工退休後的生活保障"},{"start":8084.66,"end":8086.66,"text":"是雇主所應負擔的責任"},{"start":8088.57,"end":8090.57,"text":"他運作的邏輯不因"},{"start":8090.57,"end":8092.57,"text":"只仰賴政府的操盤"},{"start":8092.57,"end":8094.57,"text":"的投資績效"},{"start":8094.57,"end":8096.57,"text":"最後我們公共"},{"start":8096.57,"end":8098.57,"text":"總公會要強調"},{"start":8098.57,"end":8100.57,"text":"不是我一開始報告的拋棄年金"},{"start":8100.57,"end":8102.57,"text":"勞動部長期以來鼓勵自體"},{"start":8102.57,"end":8104.57,"text":"或者是7月17號"},{"start":8104.65,"end":8108.65,"text":"勞退就職轉新的制度"},{"start":8108.65,"end":8110.65,"text":"我們都認為稱不上真正的改革"},{"start":8110.65,"end":8112.65,"text":"勞動部一直強調的"},{"start":8112.65,"end":8114.65,"text":"勞退自體其實是根本無助於"},{"start":8114.65,"end":8116.65,"text":"改善普遍勞工的退休保障問題"},{"start":8116.65,"end":8118.65,"text":"那公共總公會主張"},{"start":8118.65,"end":8120.65,"text":"勞工退休金制度"},{"start":8123.32,"end":8125.32,"text":"根本的"},{"start":8124.72,"end":8126.72,"text":"改革方案"},{"start":8126.72,"end":8128.72,"text":"就是讓勞"},{"start":8129.12,"end":8131.12,"text":"勞工可以擇休去做選擇"},{"start":8131.12,"end":8133.12,"text":"那應該是在"},{"start":8133.12,"end":8135.12,"text":"除了勞動部"},{"start":8135.12,"end":8137.12,"text":"目前所要推動的就職轉換新制的方案外"},{"start":8137.12,"end":8139.12,"text":"應該要打開"},{"start":8141.9,"end":8143.9,"text":"原本的就職的45個激素"},{"start":8143.9,"end":8145.9,"text":"依照工作年資"},{"start":8145.9,"end":8147.9,"text":"寄給退休金"},{"start":8147.9,"end":8149.9,"text":"讓勞工可以擇休選擇"},{"start":8149.9,"end":8151.9,"text":"不要讓就職勞工付出"},{"start":8151.9,"end":8153.9,"text":"更多卻沒有應有的保障"},{"start":8153.9,"end":8155.9,"text":"那新制已經21年沒有調整"},{"start":8155.9,"end":8157.9,"text":"提高雇主"},{"start":8158.42,"end":8160.42,"text":"提撥比率到12%"},{"start":8160.42,"end":8162.42,"text":"這是我們的訴求"},{"start":8162.42,"end":8164.42,"text":"那現在"},{"start":8164.42,"end":8166.42,"text":"已經有非常多的"},{"start":8166.42,"end":8168.42,"text":"擴黨派的委員提案"},{"start":8168.42,"end":8170.42,"text":"提高勞退新制中的"},{"start":8170.42,"end":8172.42,"text":"雇主提撥比率"},{"start":8173.74,"end":8175.74,"text":"請政府別再辜負之風"},{"start":8175.74,"end":8177.74,"text":"正視台灣勞工"},{"start":8178.55,"end":8180.55,"text":"勞工退休保障不足的問題"},{"start":8181.89,"end":8183.89,"text":"那從政府"},{"start":8183.89,"end":8185.89,"text":"從民國94年7月1日開始用"},{"start":8185.89,"end":8187.89,"text":"勞退新制取代就職到現在已經超過21年"},{"start":8187.89,"end":8189.89,"text":"那所以是民進黨執政的時代"},{"start":8189.89,"end":8191.89,"text":"當時講的"},{"start":8191.89,"end":8193.89,"text":"先求有再求好"},{"start":8193.89,"end":8195.89,"text":"要求勞工先同意接受"},{"start":8195.89,"end":8197.89,"text":"結果歷經了21年"},{"start":8197.89,"end":8199.89,"text":"雇主提撥率完全沒有變好過"},{"start":8199.89,"end":8201.89,"text":"那我們合理的懷疑這根本就是對"},{"start":8201.89,"end":8203.89,"text":"適用新制勞工的"},{"start":8203.89,"end":8205.89,"text":"詐騙行為"},{"start":8205.89,"end":8207.89,"text":"那在這邊我要跟政府強調"},{"start":8207.89,"end":8209.89,"text":"再不修法提高雇主提撥率"},{"start":8209.89,"end":8211.89,"text":"就坐實了政府過去的詐騙行徑"},{"start":8211.89,"end":8213.89,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8214.93,"end":8216.93,"text":"謝謝何贈嘉理事長"},{"start":8216.93,"end":8218.93,"text":"接下來請吳靜如研究員"},{"start":8226.04,"end":8228.04,"text":"各位議會大家好"},{"start":8228.04,"end":8230.04,"text":"我是代表國際移工"},{"start":8230.04,"end":8232.04,"text":"也是我們講的外勞"},{"start":8232.04,"end":8234.04,"text":"來這邊發言"},{"start":8234.04,"end":8236.04,"text":"大家都知道新制其實是"},{"start":8236.04,"end":8238.04,"text":"從頭到尾"},{"start":8238.04,"end":8240.04,"text":"就是排除了移工的家保"},{"start":8240.04,"end":8242.04,"text":"那目前呢"},{"start":8242.04,"end":8244.04,"text":"只有在去年的那個"},{"start":8244.04,"end":8246.04,"text":"宣布今年"},{"start":8246.04,"end":8248.04,"text":"4月1號開始有這個"},{"start":8248.04,"end":8250.04,"text":"外計也就是本來講的中階"},{"start":8250.04,"end":8252.04,"text":"跟那個"},{"start":8252.85,"end":8254.85,"text":"呃"},{"start":8254.07,"end":8256.07,"text":"橋外生叫做外計"},{"start":8256.07,"end":8258.07,"text":"然後以及十年年資的移工"},{"start":8258.07,"end":8260.07,"text":"才能夠用舊制"},{"start":8260.07,"end":8262.07,"text":"不是新制是舊制"},{"start":8262.07,"end":8264.07,"text":"也就是大家知道很難在"},{"start":8264.07,"end":8266.07,"text":"台灣有十年同一雇主的"},{"start":8266.07,"end":8268.07,"text":"這些人用舊制"},{"start":8268.07,"end":8270.07,"text":"那我想要請問勞動部"},{"start":8270.07,"end":8272.07,"text":"或者是說提醒勞動部"},{"start":8272.07,"end":8274.07,"text":"去年監察院已經"},{"start":8274.07,"end":8276.07,"text":"有調查表示勞基法"},{"start":8276.07,"end":8278.07,"text":"在規定"},{"start":8278.07,"end":8280.07,"text":"雇主應該"},{"start":8280.07,"end":8282.07,"text":"每按月提撥的這個條文上"},{"start":8282.07,"end":8284.07,"text":"並沒有區分本勞或移工"},{"start":8284.07,"end":8286.07,"text":"但是勞動部"},{"start":8286.07,"end":8288.07,"text":"以韓市的方式"},{"start":8288.07,"end":8290.07,"text":"來把本"},{"start":8290.07,"end":8292.07,"text":"聘僱移工的雇主"},{"start":8292.07,"end":8294.07,"text":"排除在每月提撥之外"},{"start":8294.07,"end":8296.07,"text":"這個已經違反了"},{"start":8296.07,"end":8298.07,"text":"法律的授權明確性"},{"start":8298.07,"end":8300.07,"text":"而且抵觸母法"},{"start":8300.07,"end":8302.07,"text":"這個是對之前95年"},{"start":8302.07,"end":8304.07,"text":"發布的行政命令"},{"start":8304.07,"end":8306.07,"text":"那我想要問為什麼"},{"start":8306.07,"end":8308.07,"text":"在去年勞動部的韓市"},{"start":8308.07,"end":8310.07,"text":"以移工的十年年資"},{"start":8310.07,"end":8312.07,"text":"為一個區隔"},{"start":8312.07,"end":8314.07,"text":"然後要他們用舊制"},{"start":8314.07,"end":8316.07,"text":"這個難道沒有"},{"start":8316.07,"end":8318.07,"text":"繼續違法嗎"},{"start":8318.07,"end":8320.07,"text":"所以請勞動部有機會的話"},{"start":8320.07,"end":8322.07,"text":"可以就這點做一個補充"},{"start":8322.07,"end":8324.07,"text":"或回答"},{"start":8324.07,"end":8326.07,"text":"那我們要講的是說"},{"start":8326.07,"end":8328.07,"text":"有這樣的宣布"},{"start":8328.07,"end":8330.07,"text":"第一個表示勞動部知道"},{"start":8330.07,"end":8332.07,"text":"其實移工也應該要有"},{"start":8332.07,"end":8334.07,"text":"退休的保障才能夠符合"},{"start":8334.07,"end":8336.07,"text":"國際上的勞權的標準"},{"start":8336.07,"end":8338.07,"text":"第二個但是用這種"},{"start":8338.07,"end":8340.07,"text":"外籍加十年年資的方式"},{"start":8340.07,"end":8342.07,"text":"用舊制的方式"},{"start":8342.07,"end":8344.07,"text":"其實根本就不是"},{"start":8344.07,"end":8346.07,"text":"站在勞工權益的立場"},{"start":8346.07,"end":8348.07,"text":"因為明明知道他們領不到"},{"start":8348.07,"end":8350.07,"text":"特別移工是契約工"},{"start":8350.07,"end":8352.07,"text":"不論是轉換不論是回國"},{"start":8352.07,"end":8354.07,"text":"都很容易領不到"},{"start":8354.07,"end":8356.07,"text":"那用這種方式其實是"},{"start":8356.07,"end":8358.07,"text":"也對監察院的調查敷衍了事"},{"start":8358.07,"end":8360.07,"text":"這是我們首先要講的第一點"},{"start":8360.07,"end":8362.07,"text":"第二個我們要說"},{"start":8362.07,"end":8364.07,"text":"其實大家都知道"},{"start":8364.07,"end":8366.07,"text":"在台灣的本勞跟移工"},{"start":8366.07,"end":8368.07,"text":"一點都不同工同酬"},{"start":8368.07,"end":8370.07,"text":"除了薪資低以外"},{"start":8370.07,"end":8372.07,"text":"其實在勞動條件上也低"},{"start":8372.07,"end":8374.07,"text":"在所有的環境"},{"start":8374.07,"end":8376.07,"text":"跟薪資都低"},{"start":8376.07,"end":8378.07,"text":"那我要舉個小例子吧"},{"start":8378.07,"end":8380.07,"text":"就是我以現在"},{"start":8380.07,"end":8382.07,"text":"五月底的這個移工人數來講"},{"start":8382.07,"end":8384.07,"text":"總數八十八點七萬"},{"start":8384.07,"end":8386.07,"text":"其中適用勞基法的"},{"start":8386.07,"end":8388.07,"text":"有產業移工五十五點七萬"},{"start":8388.07,"end":8390.07,"text":"還有一點六名的"},{"start":8390.07,"end":8392.07,"text":"機構看護工他們都適用勞基法"},{"start":8392.07,"end":8394.07,"text":"如果我們以"},{"start":8394.07,"end":8396.07,"text":"現在的基本公司計算"},{"start":8396.07,"end":8398.07,"text":"一個月提撥零點六"},{"start":8398.07,"end":8400.07,"text":"然後乘以這個人數"},{"start":8400.07,"end":8402.07,"text":"每個月會幫"},{"start":8402.07,"end":8404.07,"text":"資本家省了十億"},{"start":8404.74,"end":8406.74,"text":"從"},{"start":8406.03,"end":8408.03,"text":"1992年甚至1989年"},{"start":8408.03,"end":8410.03,"text":"開始到現在"},{"start":8410.03,"end":8412.03,"text":"37年將近40年期間"},{"start":8412.03,"end":8414.03,"text":"在勞動部的"},{"start":8415.69,"end":8417.69,"text":"這些作為下"},{"start":8417.69,"end":8419.69,"text":"其實完全沒有顧慮到"},{"start":8419.69,"end":8421.69,"text":"這些勞動者為台灣的"},{"start":8421.69,"end":8423.69,"text":"這種貢獻"},{"start":8423.69,"end":8425.69,"text":"沒有提撥已經幾十年了"},{"start":8425.69,"end":8427.69,"text":"那我們主張"},{"start":8427.69,"end":8429.69,"text":"其實如果越把"},{"start":8429.69,"end":8431.69,"text":"這個勞動條件拉開"},{"start":8431.69,"end":8433.69,"text":"其實本來勞動條件"},{"start":8433.69,"end":8435.69,"text":"不會上升的"},{"start":8435.69,"end":8437.69,"text":"另一方面現在的"},{"start":8437.69,"end":8439.69,"text":"剛剛那個"},{"start":8439.69,"end":8441.69,"text":"有一位理事也講到"},{"start":8441.69,"end":8443.69,"text":"目前越來越多其實"},{"start":8443.69,"end":8445.69,"text":"本地勞工他的領取的薪資"},{"start":8445.69,"end":8447.69,"text":"甚至跟移工一樣是"},{"start":8447.69,"end":8449.69,"text":"基本公司這就是長期以來"},{"start":8449.69,"end":8451.69,"text":"因為有月廉價的勞動力"},{"start":8451.69,"end":8453.69,"text":"有月廉價的移工"},{"start":8454.25,"end":8456.25,"text":"本勞就會越被挨"},{"start":8456.25,"end":8458.25,"text":"所以整體勞動條件是往下調的"},{"start":8458.25,"end":8460.25,"text":"那我們也要再說"},{"start":8460.25,"end":8462.25,"text":"其實大家都說缺工"},{"start":8462.25,"end":8464.25,"text":"舉個例子韓國"},{"start":8464.25,"end":8466.25,"text":"其實就有對於移工的"},{"start":8466.25,"end":8468.25,"text":"退休保障計算方式是"},{"start":8468.25,"end":8470.25,"text":"一年就可以領一個月的"},{"start":8470.25,"end":8472.25,"text":"退休金他們的薪資"},{"start":8472.25,"end":8474.25,"text":"是大概新台幣的四點五"},{"start":8474.25,"end":8476.25,"text":"四點五萬一年"},{"start":8476.25,"end":8478.25,"text":"退休金是一年一個月"},{"start":8478.25,"end":8480.25,"text":"所以如果你工作一年"},{"start":8480.25,"end":8482.25,"text":"你就會有四點五萬的這個退休"},{"start":8482.25,"end":8484.25,"text":"再來他們還規定了"},{"start":8484.25,"end":8486.25,"text":"僱主需要繳交一個叫做"},{"start":8486.25,"end":8488.25,"text":"期滿出國保險"},{"start":8488.25,"end":8490.25,"text":"這兩個"},{"start":8489.49,"end":8491.49,"text":"加起來是勞工回去的時候"},{"start":8491.49,"end":8493.49,"text":"可以拿到退休的保障"},{"start":8493.49,"end":8495.49,"text":"也就是說如果你的這個"},{"start":8495.49,"end":8497.49,"text":"期滿出國的保險可以領的"},{"start":8497.49,"end":8499.49,"text":"錢不到他退休金的"},{"start":8499.49,"end":8501.49,"text":"規定的話僱主還要補上去"},{"start":8501.49,"end":8503.49,"text":"讓移工出國的時候可以拿回去"},{"start":8503.49,"end":8505.49,"text":"那我們要來說了"},{"start":8505.49,"end":8507.49,"text":"在韓國他們的工資"},{"start":8507.49,"end":8509.49,"text":"移工的工資比我們高"},{"start":8509.49,"end":8511.49,"text":"他們沒有"},{"start":8511.49,"end":8513.49,"text":"仲介的剝削政府對政府的"},{"start":8513.49,"end":8515.49,"text":"直接聘僱甚至他們還有"},{"start":8515.49,"end":8517.49,"text":"退休金請問台灣"},{"start":8517.49,"end":8519.49,"text":"請問市長好了"},{"start":8519.49,"end":8521.49,"text":"請問勞動部的官員好了"},{"start":8521.49,"end":8523.49,"text":"在這樣的比較下你會選擇去哪一國工作"},{"start":8523.49,"end":8525.49,"text":"所以我們拿什麼來"},{"start":8525.49,"end":8527.49,"text":"搶得了工"},{"start":8527.49,"end":8529.49,"text":"就是另外一點"},{"start":8529.49,"end":8531.49,"text":"再來跨境的移工"},{"start":8531.49,"end":8533.49,"text":"我還要再提醒大家的是"},{"start":8534.33,"end":8536.33,"text":"產業移工沒有因為年資加薪"},{"start":8536.33,"end":8538.33,"text":"不可能有深遷"},{"start":8538.33,"end":8540.33,"text":"特別是他們被規定為契約工"},{"start":8540.33,"end":8542.33,"text":"這個有沒有違法"},{"start":8542.33,"end":8544.33,"text":"也得考慮"},{"start":8544.33,"end":8546.33,"text":"那所有這些契約工"},{"start":8546.33,"end":8548.33,"text":"就是等於剝奪了他們"},{"start":8548.33,"end":8550.33,"text":"參加工會的這種權利"},{"start":8550.33,"end":8552.33,"text":"只要我不續約你"},{"start":8552.33,"end":8554.33,"text":"我一知道你要參加工會"},{"start":8554.33,"end":8556.33,"text":"我就不續約你其實剝奪了勞工"},{"start":8556.33,"end":8558.33,"text":"勞工很重要的團結權"},{"start":8558.33,"end":8560.33,"text":"那康復工特別是"},{"start":8560.33,"end":8562.33,"text":"現在二十幾萬人幫政府"},{"start":8562.33,"end":8564.33,"text":"承擔的長照責任"},{"start":8564.33,"end":8566.33,"text":"他們是勞動部的調查"},{"start":8566.33,"end":8568.33,"text":"是只有三分之一的人"},{"start":8568.33,"end":8570.33,"text":"三分之一的人"},{"start":8570.33,"end":8572.33,"text":"有休假一天"},{"start":8572.33,"end":8574.33,"text":"有三分之一的人完全沒休假"},{"start":8574.33,"end":8576.33,"text":"每一天就算有休假一天"},{"start":8576.33,"end":8578.33,"text":"能夠到二十四小時的"},{"start":8578.33,"end":8580.33,"text":"趨近於零"},{"start":8580.33,"end":8582.33,"text":"大部分是平均是十四點一小時"},{"start":8582.33,"end":8584.33,"text":"這樣的工資"},{"start":8584.33,"end":8586.33,"text":"月薪兩萬塊"},{"start":8586.33,"end":8588.33,"text":"一天的加班費六百六十七塊"},{"start":8588.33,"end":8590.33,"text":"也就是一小時二十八塊"},{"start":8590.33,"end":8592.33,"text":"所有這樣我們運用人家的"},{"start":8592.33,"end":8594.33,"text":"廉價勞動力到這麼久"},{"start":8594.33,"end":8596.33,"text":"我們不用負擔這些來台灣"},{"start":8596.33,"end":8598.33,"text":"用他們的黃金歲月貢獻給"},{"start":8598.33,"end":8600.33,"text":"台灣社會產業"},{"start":8600.33,"end":8602.33,"text":"還有社福"},{"start":8602.33,"end":8604.33,"text":"我們不用負擔這些"},{"start":8604.33,"end":8606.33,"text":"但是我們連他們退休都不負擔嗎"},{"start":8606.33,"end":8608.33,"text":"我覺得台灣也簽了"},{"start":8608.33,"end":8610.33,"text":"兩公約"},{"start":8610.33,"end":8612.33,"text":"台灣也簽了SIDO"},{"start":8612.33,"end":8614.33,"text":"特別是二十幾萬的家庭康復工都是婦女"},{"start":8614.33,"end":8616.33,"text":"所以我們要求第一個"},{"start":8616.33,"end":8618.33,"text":"政府應該承擔"},{"start":8618.33,"end":8620.33,"text":"台灣單企社福責任的這些"},{"start":8620.33,"end":8622.33,"text":"聘僱家庭移工的"},{"start":8622.33,"end":8624.33,"text":"僱主的勞退"},{"start":8624.33,"end":8626.33,"text":"我們也要求所有的移工"},{"start":8626.33,"end":8628.33,"text":"都應該用勞退心智"},{"start":8628.33,"end":8630.33,"text":"然後跟大家一樣把勞退心智的"},{"start":8630.33,"end":8632.33,"text":"%數往上提"},{"start":8632.33,"end":8634.33,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8634.12,"end":8636.12,"text":"謝謝我進入研究員"},{"start":8636.12,"end":8638.12,"text":"接下來請邱惠入委員"},{"start":8645.18,"end":8647.18,"text":"主席還有各位政府部門的同仁"},{"start":8647.18,"end":8649.18,"text":"還有各位專家學者"},{"start":8649.18,"end":8651.18,"text":"還有工會的代表"},{"start":8651.18,"end":8653.18,"text":"大家好"},{"start":8653.18,"end":8655.18,"text":"我想勞工退休條例"},{"start":8655.18,"end":8657.18,"text":"第一條"},{"start":8657.18,"end":8659.18,"text":"就明文規範"},{"start":8659.18,"end":8661.18,"text":"我們要保障勞工的退休生活"},{"start":8661.18,"end":8665.18,"text":"這是勞工退休條例第一條的立法目的"},{"start":8665.18,"end":8667.18,"text":"事實上"},{"start":8667.18,"end":8669.18,"text":"我們的政府有好好的"},{"start":8669.18,"end":8671.18,"text":"保障勞工的退休生活嗎"},{"start":8671.18,"end":8673.18,"text":"我想是沒有的"},{"start":8673.18,"end":8675.18,"text":"如果有的話"},{"start":8675.18,"end":8677.18,"text":"我們的勞工團體不會"},{"start":8677.18,"end":8679.18,"text":"一而再再而三的上街頭"},{"start":8679.18,"end":8681.18,"text":"來到立法院倡議"},{"start":8681.18,"end":8683.18,"text":"台灣民眾黨也認為勞工的退休制度"},{"start":8683.18,"end":8685.18,"text":"有幾個地方需要改革"},{"start":8685.18,"end":8687.18,"text":"首先第一項呢"},{"start":8687.18,"end":8689.18,"text":"就是我們的勞工退休條例"},{"start":8689.18,"end":8691.18,"text":"第十二條關於之前費的"},{"start":8691.18,"end":8693.18,"text":"發放"},{"start":8693.18,"end":8695.18,"text":"勞工退休條例第十二條規範了"},{"start":8695.18,"end":8697.18,"text":"之前費發放的事由"},{"start":8697.18,"end":8699.18,"text":"發放的標準還有最高的上限"},{"start":8699.18,"end":8701.18,"text":"那發放的標準呢"},{"start":8701.18,"end":8703.18,"text":"勞工每工作滿一年"},{"start":8703.18,"end":8705.18,"text":"發放二分之一個月"},{"start":8705.18,"end":8707.18,"text":"月平均薪資的之前費"},{"start":8707.18,"end":8709.18,"text":"然後最高的"},{"start":8709.18,"end":8711.18,"text":"發放金額以六個月"},{"start":8711.18,"end":8713.18,"text":"月平均薪資為上限"},{"start":8713.18,"end":8715.18,"text":"換言之呢"},{"start":8715.18,"end":8717.18,"text":"什麼意思"},{"start":8717.18,"end":8719.18,"text":"就是之前費的計算呢"},{"start":8719.18,"end":8721.18,"text":"是以勞工的工作年資"},{"start":8721.18,"end":8723.18,"text":"十二年為計算基礎"},{"start":8723.18,"end":8725.18,"text":"換言之就是過了十二年之後的工作年資"},{"start":8725.18,"end":8727.18,"text":"完全沒有被評價"},{"start":8727.18,"end":8729.18,"text":"完全沒有被評價"},{"start":8729.18,"end":8731.18,"text":"完全沒有被評價"},{"start":8731.18,"end":8733.18,"text":"完全沒有被肯定"},{"start":8733.18,"end":8735.18,"text":"完全沒有被保障"},{"start":8735.18,"end":8737.18,"text":"所以我們在這邊主張勞退"},{"start":8737.23,"end":8739.23,"text":"條例的第十二條第一項的後段"},{"start":8739.2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近來已經到達"},{"start":9061.16,"end":9063.16,"text":"44%以下"},{"start":9063.16,"end":9065.16,"text":"那現在呢"},{"start":9065.16,"end":9067.16,"text":"2025年到2026年"},{"start":9067.16,"end":9069.16,"text":"尤其2026年呢"},{"start":9069.16,"end":9071.16,"text":"已經近來降到35.1%"},{"start":9071.16,"end":9073.16,"text":"這對一般勞工是一個非常"},{"start":9073.16,"end":9075.16,"text":"殘酷的數字"},{"start":9075.16,"end":9077.16,"text":"代表是什麼"},{"start":9077.16,"end":9079.16,"text":"這個貧富懸殊會越來越大"},{"start":9079.16,"end":9081.16,"text":"那這點來講 政府這方面"},{"start":9081.16,"end":9083.16,"text":"我是覺得針對GDP的這個"},{"start":9083.16,"end":9085.16,"text":"辦法 一些分配的項目"},{"start":9085.16,"end":9087.16,"text":"我們應該要多琢磨"},{"start":9087.16,"end":9089.16,"text":"在這邊"},{"start":9089.16,"end":9091.16,"text":"有實施的話"},{"start":9091.16,"end":9093.16,"text":"有好的結果 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在當年呢"},{"start":9191.01,"end":9193.01,"text":"公司同意"},{"start":9193.09,"end":9195.09,"text":"增加3.75%"},{"start":9195.57,"end":9197.57,"text":"所以中華電信公會現在的新制提撥率"},{"start":9197.57,"end":9199.57,"text":"已經到了9.75%"},{"start":9200.55,"end":9202.55,"text":"這3.75%呢"},{"start":9202.55,"end":9204.55,"text":"是用持股信託的方式"},{"start":9204.55,"end":9206.55,"text":"他沒有直接發到我們"},{"start":9206.55,"end":9208.55,"text":"新日員工的帳戶上"},{"start":9208.55,"end":9210.55,"text":"理由是這樣子"},{"start":9210.55,"end":9212.55,"text":"因為我們中華電信在科技業"},{"start":9212.55,"end":9214.55,"text":"的通訊業裡面"},{"start":9214.55,"end":9216.55,"text":"算是有不錯的一個"},{"start":9216.55,"end":9218.55,"text":"技術 我們也擔心"},{"start":9218.55,"end":9220.55,"text":"這些新進的員工呢"},{"start":9221.29,"end":9223.29,"text":"學到這些技術以後呢"},{"start":9223.29,"end":9225.29,"text":"短時間內投奔其他"},{"start":9225.29,"end":9227.29,"text":"進業 為了彌補這方面的"},{"start":9227.29,"end":9229.29,"text":"缺失 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或者說"},{"start":9672.04,"end":9674.04,"text":"我有餘裕的時候"},{"start":9674.04,"end":9676.04,"text":"在我還年輕的時候"},{"start":9676.04,"end":9678.04,"text":"我的家庭負擔還沒那麼重的時候"},{"start":9678.04,"end":9680.04,"text":"我可以提高一些字體"},{"start":9680.04,"end":9682.04,"text":"為自己的未來去做一些準備"},{"start":9682.04,"end":9684.04,"text":"所以我們希望在"},{"start":9684.04,"end":9686.04,"text":"字體的部分"},{"start":9685.88,"end":9687.88,"text":"能夠提高上限"},{"start":9687.88,"end":9689.88,"text":"那在政府的部分"},{"start":9689.88,"end":9691.88,"text":"能夠6%提高到12%"},{"start":9691.88,"end":9693.88,"text":"由各位語彙學者"},{"start":9693.88,"end":9695.88,"text":"再來去研究 到底是"},{"start":9695.88,"end":9697.88,"text":"政府跟雇主要怎麼樣分擔"},{"start":9697.88,"end":9699.88,"text":"提高的這6% 讓我們的"},{"start":9699.88,"end":9701.88,"text":"勞退薪資可以到12%"},{"start":9701.88,"end":9703.88,"text":"那另外呢 就是針對"},{"start":9705,"end":9707,"text":"勞退第12條"},{"start":9707.43,"end":9709.43,"text":"之前這部分 我也覺得"},{"start":9710.45,"end":9712.45,"text":"整個失業補助的部分"},{"start":9712.45,"end":9714.45,"text":"我們目前針對"},{"start":9714.45,"end":9716.45,"text":"之前費只有6個月是否足額"},{"start":9716.45,"end":9718.45,"text":"因為"},{"start":9718.7,"end":9720.7,"text":"6個月對於多年資"},{"start":9720.7,"end":9722.7,"text":"或者是中高齡的人"},{"start":9722.7,"end":9724.7,"text":"這樣的資遣費 有起保障嗎"},{"start":9724.7,"end":9726.7,"text":"尤其是目前的失業給付"},{"start":9726.7,"end":9728.7,"text":"是投保薪資的"},{"start":9728.7,"end":9730.7,"text":"60% 那60%"},{"start":9730.7,"end":9732.7,"text":"換算起來 以最高"},{"start":9732.7,"end":9734.7,"text":"投保薪資458000"},{"start":9734.7,"end":9736.7,"text":"換算的話 失業給付"},{"start":9736.7,"end":9738.7,"text":"6成只有27480"},{"start":9738.7,"end":9740.7,"text":"27480"},{"start":9740.7,"end":9742.7,"text":"連今年"},{"start":9742.7,"end":9744.7,"text":"已經調整的基本工資都達不到"},{"start":9745.78,"end":9747.78,"text":"達不到基本工資的失業補助"},{"start":9749.01,"end":9751.01,"text":"他是沒辦法補助的"},{"start":9751.01,"end":9753.01,"text":"因為他連基本工資都沒有"},{"start":9753.01,"end":9755.01,"text":"你在補助他什麼"},{"start":9755.01,"end":9757.01,"text":"那只補助6個月"},{"start":9757.01,"end":9759.01,"text":"那這6個月是他每個月都還要去"},{"start":9759.01,"end":9761.01,"text":"不停的去面試"},{"start":9761.01,"end":9763.01,"text":"不停的去確定他"},{"start":9763.01,"end":9765.01,"text":"這個月又沒有工作了"},{"start":9765.01,"end":9767.01,"text":"所以他下個月才能領到這個"},{"start":9767.01,"end":9769.01,"text":"不足基本工資的補助款"},{"start":9769.01,"end":9771.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9771.01,"end":9773.01,"text":"可以提高到"},{"start":9773.01,"end":9775.01,"text":"投保薪資的80%"},{"start":9775.01,"end":9777.01,"text":"甚至可以延長清零的年限"},{"start":9777.01,"end":9779.01,"text":"我們希望這個月能提高到"},{"start":9779.01,"end":9781.01,"text":"20%"},{"start":9781.01,"end":9783.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9783.01,"end":9785.01,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9785.01,"end":9787.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9787.01,"end":9789.01,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9789.01,"end":9791.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9791.01,"end":9793.01,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9793.01,"end":9795.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9795.01,"end":9797.01,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9797.01,"end":9799.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9799.01,"end":9801.01,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9801.01,"end":9803.01,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9803.01,"end":9805.01,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9778.38,"end":9780.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9780.38,"end":9782.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9782.38,"end":9784.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9784.38,"end":9786.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9786.38,"end":9788.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9788.38,"end":9790.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9790.38,"end":9792.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9792.38,"end":9794.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9794.38,"end":9796.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9796.38,"end":9798.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9798.38,"end":9800.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9800.38,"end":9802.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9802.38,"end":9804.38,"text":"所以我們希望失業給付的部分"},{"start":9804.38,"end":9806.38,"text":"可以提高到20%"},{"start":9789.15,"end":9791.15,"text":"謝謝游佩妤理事"},{"start":9791.15,"end":9793.15,"text":"接下來請王玉明委員"},{"start":9800.86,"end":9804.86,"text":"好,謝謝主席安排今天的公聽會"},{"start":9804.86,"end":9806.86,"text":"那我也要感謝今天"},{"start":9806.86,"end":9808.86,"text":"所有公會的代表"},{"start":9808.86,"end":9810.86,"text":"還有專家學者今天的出席"},{"start":9810.86,"end":9814.86,"text":"我想剛剛前面有很多先進提到"},{"start":9814.86,"end":9816.86,"text":"台灣的經濟果實"},{"start":9816.86,"end":9818.86,"text":"事實上是各行各業的勞工"},{"start":9818.86,"end":9820.86,"text":"真的站在第一線"},{"start":9820.86,"end":9822.86,"text":"每一天很辛勞的工作"},{"start":9822.86,"end":9824.86,"text":"打拼出來的"},{"start":9824.86,"end":9826.86,"text":"所以第一個我們真的要感謝"},{"start":9826.86,"end":9828.86,"text":"全國的勞工朋友"},{"start":9828.86,"end":9830.86,"text":"每一天都戰戰兢兢的"},{"start":9830.86,"end":9832.86,"text":"在工作崗位上面"},{"start":9832.86,"end":9836.86,"text":"付出他們的工作的心血"},{"start":9836.86,"end":9838.86,"text":"然後幫台灣創造"},{"start":9838.86,"end":9840.86,"text":"目前這麼高的一個經濟的果實"},{"start":9840.86,"end":9844.86,"text":"那台灣擁有這龐大的經濟果實之後"},{"start":9844.86,"end":9846.86,"text":"很重要的是"},{"start":9846.86,"end":9848.86,"text":"我們要重分配"},{"start":9848.86,"end":9850.86,"text":"我們要有效的回饋"},{"start":9850.86,"end":9852.86,"text":"讓這些我們勞工朋友"},{"start":9852.86,"end":9854.86,"text":"他們的生活"},{"start":9854.86,"end":9856.86,"text":"可以獲得我們國家制度性的保障"},{"start":9856.86,"end":9860.86,"text":"所以今天我主要有很多的公會的代表"},{"start":9860.86,"end":9862.86,"text":"都有從各自的立場提出"},{"start":9862.86,"end":9864.86,"text":"一些未來修法的建言"},{"start":9864.86,"end":9866.86,"text":"我想這個立法院我們應該都要尊重"},{"start":9866.86,"end":9868.86,"text":"而且都要聽見"},{"start":9868.86,"end":9870.86,"text":"之後再跟勞動部一起來研商"},{"start":9870.86,"end":9872.86,"text":"怎麼樣是一個可行的"},{"start":9872.86,"end":9874.86,"text":"然後前進的辦法"},{"start":9874.86,"end":9876.86,"text":"那我針對今天的主題"},{"start":9876.86,"end":9878.86,"text":"我有幾點要表達意見"},{"start":9878.86,"end":9880.86,"text":"第一個就是我們一定要確保"},{"start":9880.86,"end":9882.86,"text":"我們所有的勞工朋友"},{"start":9882.86,"end":9884.86,"text":"現在所繳的這些費用"},{"start":9884.86,"end":9886.86,"text":"未來他是領得到的"},{"start":9886.86,"end":9888.86,"text":"所以有關於勞工保險基金"},{"start":9888.86,"end":9890.86,"text":"會不會破產"},{"start":9890.86,"end":9892.86,"text":"怎麼樣確保我們的基金是永續的運作"},{"start":9892.86,"end":9896.86,"text":"我覺得這個是政府責無旁貸的責任"},{"start":9896.86,"end":9898.86,"text":"那在立法院裡面"},{"start":9898.86,"end":9900.86,"text":"我們在今年一月已經通過了"},{"start":9900.86,"end":9904.86,"text":"這個政府最終支付責任"},{"start":9904.86,"end":9906.86,"text":"這個事實上已經入法"},{"start":9906.86,"end":9908.86,"text":"但是我覺得入法還不夠"},{"start":9908.86,"end":9910.86,"text":"事實上勞動部"},{"start":9910.86,"end":9912.86,"text":"應該要很務實的看待"},{"start":9912.86,"end":9914.86,"text":"因為勞動部的基金他的收支不平衡的狀況"},{"start":9914.86,"end":9916.86,"text":"還有潛藏負債的狀況"},{"start":9916.86,"end":9918.86,"text":"那現在勞動部告訴大家說"},{"start":9918.86,"end":9920.86,"text":"我們到目前為止"},{"start":9922.97,"end":9926.97,"text":"這八年來總共提撥了五千一百七十億"},{"start":9926.97,"end":9928.97,"text":"但是這個夠嗎"},{"start":9928.97,"end":9930.97,"text":"事實上是不夠的"},{"start":9930.97,"end":9932.97,"text":"剛剛其實有學者也特別提到了"},{"start":9932.97,"end":9934.97,"text":"這個收支差額"},{"start":9934.97,"end":9936.97,"text":"來到了2034年"},{"start":9936.97,"end":9938.97,"text":"其實一年高達五千億"},{"start":9940.37,"end":9942.37,"text":"所以以現行的"},{"start":9942.37,"end":9946.37,"text":"即使你去年提撥了一千三百億"},{"start":9946.37,"end":9948.37,"text":"在面對未來的情況"},{"start":9948.37,"end":9950.37,"text":"事實上他還是不夠的"},{"start":9950.37,"end":9952.37,"text":"所以我們也不能鴕鳥"},{"start":9952.37,"end":9954.37,"text":"這個雖然講了"},{"start":9954.37,"end":9956.37,"text":"政府負最終責任"},{"start":9956.37,"end":9960.37,"text":"但是這當中怎麼去提高你整個基金的收益"},{"start":9960.37,"end":9962.37,"text":"提高政府撥補的金額"},{"start":9962.37,"end":9964.37,"text":"這個是一定要去做的"},{"start":9964.37,"end":9966.37,"text":"我覺得這兩個方向一定要去做"},{"start":9966.37,"end":9968.37,"text":"那現在政府在報告裡面告訴我們說"},{"start":9968.37,"end":9972.37,"text":"財政部說這個不可以明定金額"},{"start":9972.37,"end":9975.37,"text":"也不可以明定每年要固定提撥多少"},{"start":9975.37,"end":9977.37,"text":"主機處也說不可以"},{"start":9977.37,"end":9979.37,"text":"但是這個部分"},{"start":9979.37,"end":9982.37,"text":"我覺得未來你如果沒有一個最低的樓地板"},{"start":9982.37,"end":9983.37,"text":"就是承諾的"},{"start":9983.37,"end":9985.37,"text":"我們不能只是部長一句話"},{"start":9985.37,"end":9990.37,"text":"部長說他會努力明年一定不低於一千三百億"},{"start":9990.37,"end":9992.37,"text":"我們政務官是來來去去"},{"start":9992.37,"end":9994.37,"text":"我們不能靠政府的一句話"},{"start":9994.37,"end":9997.37,"text":"所以未來也請勞動部去研議"},{"start":9997.37,"end":9999.37,"text":"怎麼樣是最低的撥補金額"},{"start":9999.37,"end":10002.37,"text":"我覺得應該是要明文化的"},{"start":10002.37,"end":10005.37,"text":"這個也是給我們全國勞工必要的保障"},{"start":10005.37,"end":10007.37,"text":"那另外在投資收益的部分"},{"start":10007.37,"end":10010.37,"text":"我想這個勞動部也會適時告訴大家說"},{"start":10010.37,"end":10012.37,"text":"哎呀我們這個收益有多好"},{"start":10012.37,"end":10015.37,"text":"我希望這整個投資的效益"},{"start":10015.37,"end":10017.37,"text":"可以讓它更穩定化"},{"start":10017.37,"end":10022.37,"text":"那如果這個投資報酬率投報率是好的是高的是穩定的"},{"start":10022.37,"end":10025.37,"text":"我相信對於我們的勞保基金來講"},{"start":10025.37,"end":10028.37,"text":"這個會有一些穩定的注意"},{"start":10028.37,"end":10030.37,"text":"所以第一個我要提醒的就是"},{"start":10030.37,"end":10033.37,"text":"我們雖然這個最終支付責任"},{"start":10033.37,"end":10035.37,"text":"政府最終支付責任入法"},{"start":10035.37,"end":10038.37,"text":"但是勞保基金你怎麼樣持續的開源"},{"start":10038.37,"end":10040.37,"text":"然後政府撥補的金額"},{"start":10040.37,"end":10043.37,"text":"怎麼樣訂出一個最低的撥補金額"},{"start":10043.37,"end":10045.37,"text":"然後讓它這個"},{"start":10046.26,"end":10047.26,"text":"情況可以改善"},{"start":10047.26,"end":10049.26,"text":"整個基金的財務狀況可以改善"},{"start":10049.26,"end":10050.26,"text":"這個"},{"start":10051.42,"end":10055.42,"text":"破產的議題在短期之內不會再被提及"},{"start":10055.42,"end":10057.42,"text":"然後可以有效的永續"},{"start":10057.42,"end":10059.42,"text":"我覺得這個是要去面對的議題"},{"start":10059.42,"end":10063.42,"text":"第二個就是涉及到勞工的權益的問題"},{"start":10063.42,"end":10067.42,"text":"那今天有非常多位的勞工團體的代表"},{"start":10067.42,"end":10069.42,"text":"其實也都提到"},{"start":10069.42,"end":10071.42,"text":"特別是剛剛我們聽到這個"},{"start":10071.42,"end":10074.42,"text":"我們公會的理事長"},{"start":10074.42,"end":10076.42,"text":"這個也提到了"},{"start":10076.42,"end":10078.42,"text":"我們勞保的最高級距"},{"start":10078.42,"end":10081.42,"text":"十年動漲的這樣的一個情況"},{"start":10081.42,"end":10084.42,"text":"那這個圖表讓大家看其實非常的清楚"},{"start":10084.42,"end":10088.42,"text":"我們勞保最高級距45800"},{"start":10088.42,"end":10090.42,"text":"這十年來是從未調整"},{"start":10090.42,"end":10093.42,"text":"但是我們的樓地板是有在調的"},{"start":10093.42,"end":10094.42,"text":"我們最低工資"},{"start":10094.42,"end":10100.42,"text":"我們從2008元一直調整到現在是29500"},{"start":10100.42,"end":10103.42,"text":"那這個可能勞動部"},{"start":10103.42,"end":10105.42,"text":"待會可能要給大家一個說法"},{"start":10105.42,"end":10107.42,"text":"這個事實上我之前在委員會質詢過"},{"start":10107.42,"end":10109.42,"text":"就是只調樓地板"},{"start":10109.42,"end":10111.42,"text":"完全不調天花板"},{"start":10111.42,"end":10114.42,"text":"那像剛剛這個理事長所提到的"},{"start":10114.42,"end":10116.42,"text":"華儲公會理事長所提到的"},{"start":10116.42,"end":10121.42,"text":"就是說這個對照現在勞工的薪資的狀況"},{"start":10121.42,"end":10124.42,"text":"顯然這一個天花板不再是天花板"},{"start":10124.42,"end":10126.42,"text":"會不會未來也快要變成樓地板"},{"start":10126.42,"end":10129.42,"text":"那這個是大家要去看見的問題"},{"start":10129.42,"end":10131.42,"text":"就是政府不能脫尿"},{"start":10131.42,"end":10133.42,"text":"那當然我知道這樣的一個調整"},{"start":10133.42,"end":10136.42,"text":"會涉及到資方的支出"},{"start":10136.42,"end":10139.42,"text":"還有將來這個勞保基金的支出"},{"start":10139.42,"end":10142.42,"text":"但是我們的改革就是改到合理"},{"start":10142.42,"end":10144.42,"text":"我們也沒有要你調到非常高"},{"start":10144.42,"end":10146.42,"text":"但是完全都不動"},{"start":10146.42,"end":10147.42,"text":"事實上這個也是不對"},{"start":10147.42,"end":10150.42,"text":"就完全不符合現在的情況"},{"start":10150.42,"end":10154.42,"text":"那所以不能只調樓地板天花板都不動"},{"start":10154.42,"end":10157.42,"text":"因為最近勞動部也提到救保基金的部分"},{"start":10157.42,"end":10160.42,"text":"有想要打開這個天花板的部分"},{"start":10160.42,"end":10164.42,"text":"但是勞保這邊其實是不敢去動的"},{"start":10164.42,"end":10167.42,"text":"但我認為勞動部應該找專家學者"},{"start":10167.42,"end":10169.42,"text":"大家好好的來研議"},{"start":10169.42,"end":10171.42,"text":"這個應該要怎麼去做"},{"start":10171.42,"end":10174.42,"text":"那另外就是今天有很多人提到的"},{"start":10174.42,"end":10176.42,"text":"勞退薪資、勞退提撥率"},{"start":10177.6,"end":10182.6,"text":"現在就是也是6%凍結21年這個問題"},{"start":10182.6,"end":10186.6,"text":"這個一樣這是關乎勞工的退休金"},{"start":10186.6,"end":10187.6,"text":"那這個部分都不打開"},{"start":10187.6,"end":10189.6,"text":"我個人覺得不合理"},{"start":10189.6,"end":10191.6,"text":"但是打開的級距應該到多少"},{"start":10191.6,"end":10192.6,"text":"是不是能一步到位"},{"start":10192.6,"end":10194.6,"text":"還是逐年調升"},{"start":10194.6,"end":10197.6,"text":"我覺得勞動部一定有辦法找更多的專家學者"},{"start":10197.6,"end":10199.6,"text":"還有我們工會的代表"},{"start":10199.6,"end":10200.6,"text":"大家坐下來好好談"},{"start":10200.6,"end":10202.6,"text":"找到一個務實可行"},{"start":10202.6,"end":10204.6,"text":"然後可以持續前進的方法"},{"start":10204.6,"end":10207.6,"text":"我覺得這個應該是可以做的"},{"start":10207.6,"end":10210.6,"text":"國民黨立院黨團剛剛蘇裕長李佩祥也有提到"},{"start":10210.6,"end":10212.6,"text":"國民黨團我們是支持"},{"start":10212.6,"end":10215.6,"text":"應該要調整要打開這個上限的"},{"start":10215.6,"end":10217.6,"text":"不應該是完全凍結"},{"start":10217.6,"end":10219.6,"text":"那至於打開到哪裡如何調"},{"start":10219.6,"end":10222.6,"text":"我覺得謝謝召我今天排的這個公聽會"},{"start":10222.6,"end":10223.6,"text":"那未來這個議題"},{"start":10223.6,"end":10227.6,"text":"我認為勞動部應該要再找更多的專家學者"},{"start":10227.6,"end":10228.6,"text":"大家好好來研議"},{"start":10228.6,"end":10231.6,"text":"因為台灣社會我們要進步"},{"start":10231.6,"end":10233.6,"text":"那你不能把過去的規定"},{"start":10233.6,"end":10234.6,"text":"你現在可能會說"},{"start":10234.6,"end":10240.6,"text":"這一條就害怕未來這個勞保基金會不會加劇他的支出"},{"start":10240.6,"end":10242.6,"text":"但是你兩邊都要調整"},{"start":10242.6,"end":10244.6,"text":"你基金那邊你要想辦法再去開源"},{"start":10244.6,"end":10246.6,"text":"然後合理的調整"},{"start":10246.6,"end":10248.6,"text":"合理的級距調整你也是必要的"},{"start":10248.6,"end":10252.6,"text":"所以我就不能說這個以不變應萬變"},{"start":10252.6,"end":10254.6,"text":"應該是要該怎麼調整"},{"start":10254.6,"end":10258.6,"text":"那今天這個這麼多工會的代表在這邊"},{"start":10258.6,"end":10260.6,"text":"這個也是他們非常強烈的訴求"},{"start":10260.6,"end":10263.6,"text":"那我覺得今天市長也還有關"},{"start":10263.6,"end":10266.6,"text":"就是相關的官員都坐在現場聽這麼多"},{"start":10266.6,"end":10269.6,"text":"我想聽完之後就是要有行動"},{"start":10269.6,"end":10270.6,"text":"那我具體建議"},{"start":10270.6,"end":10273.6,"text":"還應該要再召開這個專家學者會議"},{"start":10273.6,"end":10275.6,"text":"找大家來怎麼調整"},{"start":10275.6,"end":10277.6,"text":"我們再往前踏出一步這樣子"},{"start":10277.6,"end":10278.6,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":10278.6,"end":10280.6,"text":"好謝謝王雁民委員的諮詢"},{"start":10283.34,"end":10285.34,"text":"現在請林昭臻"},{"start":10285.93,"end":10286.93,"text":"研究員"},{"start":10301.91,"end":10304.91,"text":"政府的官員學者專家還有工會朋友們"},{"start":10304.91,"end":10308.91,"text":"今天大家一起為了我們勞工的老年經濟安全"},{"start":10308.91,"end":10313.91,"text":"來進行這些意見的討論"},{"start":10313.91,"end":10317.91,"text":"那我們今天的主題有分勞保跟勞退兩個部分"},{"start":10317.91,"end":10318.91,"text":"就勞保而言"},{"start":10318.91,"end":10321.91,"text":"這是我們精算報告的資料"},{"start":10321.91,"end":10322.91,"text":"它裡頭有強調"},{"start":10322.91,"end":10327.91,"text":"如果未來政府不再繼續的撥補的話"},{"start":10327.91,"end":10329.91,"text":"我們預計是在民國120年"},{"start":10329.91,"end":10331.91,"text":"我們的基金就會用完"},{"start":10331.91,"end":10334.91,"text":"那講到撥補無法自化"},{"start":10334.91,"end":10337.91,"text":"這個是今天的一個議題"},{"start":10337.91,"end":10338.91,"text":"但是我們考量到"},{"start":10338.91,"end":10344.91,"text":"過去我們當就是政府負最終責任這個議題"},{"start":10344.91,"end":10347.91,"text":"從2010年就開始有人倡議"},{"start":10347.91,"end":10349.91,"text":"但是是到了去年底"},{"start":10349.91,"end":10352.91,"text":"2025年的12月30號才三讀通過"},{"start":10352.91,"end":10356.91,"text":"考量在這麼漫長的15年的這個時間"},{"start":10357.91,"end":10358.41,"text":"嗯"},{"start":10365.15,"end":10368.15,"text":"好良好在這麼漫長的時間裡頭"},{"start":10368.15,"end":10371.15,"text":"如果這個撥補法自化"},{"start":10371.15,"end":10373.15,"text":"沒有辦法那麼快順利完成的話"},{"start":10373.15,"end":10377.15,"text":"我們覺得剛剛很多朋友們都有提到"},{"start":10377.15,"end":10380.15,"text":"就是直接將勞保的投保薪資"},{"start":10380.15,"end":10382.15,"text":"最高投保薪資先頂"},{"start":10382.15,"end":10384.15,"text":"這其實是一個很快速的一個做法"},{"start":10384.15,"end":10386.15,"text":"那事實上我們看一下"},{"start":10386.15,"end":10389.15,"text":"那個各類的社會保險的最高投保薪資"},{"start":10389.15,"end":10394.15,"text":"像健保在去年他們已經調到31萬3000塊"},{"start":10394.15,"end":10397.15,"text":"我們的職業災害保險的最高投保薪資"},{"start":10397.15,"end":10400.15,"text":"也到了是7萬2800元"},{"start":10400.15,"end":10404.15,"text":"但是勞保跟救保是一直維持著"},{"start":10404.15,"end":10406.15,"text":"維持著這個15800都沒有變"},{"start":10406.15,"end":10408.15,"text":"那目前好"},{"start":10408.15,"end":10412.15,"text":"我們勞動部是有說希望救保跟勞保能夠脫鉤"},{"start":10412.15,"end":10417.15,"text":"也原因就是說救保的那個財務狀況比勞保好"},{"start":10417.15,"end":10419.15,"text":"但是其實財務狀況這個問題"},{"start":10419.15,"end":10421.15,"text":"我覺得它是相對的"},{"start":10421.15,"end":10422.15,"text":"為什麼呢"},{"start":10423.18,"end":10426.18,"text":"因為救保他現在是因為我們嫂子化"},{"start":10426.18,"end":10431.18,"text":"勤領那個育嬰留職停薪津貼的人數比較少"},{"start":10431.18,"end":10434.18,"text":"然後也因為失業率比較穩定"},{"start":10434.18,"end":10437.18,"text":"所以勤領失業給付的人也比較少"},{"start":10437.18,"end":10440.18,"text":"所以相對的他的財務狀況看起來是比較好"},{"start":10440.18,"end":10443.18,"text":"但是這種情形是相對的"},{"start":10443.18,"end":10446.18,"text":"如果說因為AI造成的失業潮"},{"start":10446.18,"end":10449.18,"text":"將來萬一失業率又大幅調升的時候"},{"start":10449.18,"end":10452.18,"text":"救保也不見得會比勞保更安全"},{"start":10452.18,"end":10455.18,"text":"但是我並不是說以此來說說"},{"start":10455.18,"end":10459.18,"text":"不贊成勞保跟救保這個就是"},{"start":10459.18,"end":10462.18,"text":"投保的薪資要脫鉤這件事情"},{"start":10462.18,"end":10465.18,"text":"而是我覺得我們更應該要積極的考慮"},{"start":10465.18,"end":10467.18,"text":"勞保先頂的這個問題"},{"start":10467.18,"end":10472.18,"text":"因為其實我覺得我們剛剛有提到"},{"start":10472.18,"end":10474.18,"text":"你現在超過45800"},{"start":10474.18,"end":10478.18,"text":"贏以上的這個投保級距的勞工"},{"start":10478.18,"end":10479.18,"text":"大概有300多萬"},{"start":10479.18,"end":10481.18,"text":"也就是大概有三分之一"},{"start":10481.18,"end":10483.18,"text":"就是如果先頂的話"},{"start":10483.18,"end":10486.18,"text":"其實影響的是這個三分之一的勞工"},{"start":10486.18,"end":10489.18,"text":"那針對這個勞工的部分"},{"start":10489.18,"end":10491.18,"text":"我們現在稍微估算一下"},{"start":10491.18,"end":10495.18,"text":"以48200就是45800的上一集"},{"start":10495.18,"end":10497.18,"text":"48200來算的話"},{"start":10497.18,"end":10500.18,"text":"我們現在費率用11.5來算"},{"start":10500.18,"end":10504.18,"text":"勞工以後每個月是多繳不到60塊"},{"start":10504.18,"end":10507.18,"text":"我們其實整個這個基金大水庫"},{"start":10507.18,"end":10509.18,"text":"它就會馬上的就上升"},{"start":10509.18,"end":10510.18,"text":"水位就會上升"},{"start":10510.18,"end":10514.18,"text":"加上現在已經有一兆多元的這個基金的水位"},{"start":10514.18,"end":10516.18,"text":"放在投資市場上"},{"start":10516.18,"end":10520.18,"text":"以台灣現在是全球第四大的股票市場"},{"start":10520.18,"end":10523.18,"text":"它的獲益其實相對的會比較快"},{"start":10523.18,"end":10526.18,"text":"所以我會跟大家說"},{"start":10526.18,"end":10530.18,"text":"事實上這個對勞資政三方而言"},{"start":10530.18,"end":10533.18,"text":"都是一個比較快速可以解決"},{"start":10533.18,"end":10536.18,"text":"勞保基金財務問題的一個方式"},{"start":10536.18,"end":10538.18,"text":"當然大家也會說"},{"start":10538.18,"end":10540.18,"text":"你提高了這個投保薪資之後"},{"start":10540.18,"end":10543.18,"text":"那未來的給付也會相對提高"},{"start":10543.18,"end":10545.18,"text":"但那個也是五年後的事情"},{"start":10545.18,"end":10546.18,"text":"在這個五年當中"},{"start":10546.18,"end":10548.18,"text":"我們其實還可以做很多事情"},{"start":10548.18,"end":10552.18,"text":"來延緩為我們的這個勞保基金延壽"},{"start":10552.18,"end":10554.18,"text":"這是我個人的一個看法"},{"start":10554.18,"end":10555.18,"text":"那另外就是"},{"start":10557.37,"end":10561.37,"text":"我們講到那個勞退薪資這一塊的部分"},{"start":10561.37,"end":10564.37,"text":"勞動部的提案是針對純就職的勞工"},{"start":10564.37,"end":10566.37,"text":"他來做自願提繳"},{"start":10573.62,"end":10574.62,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":10576.1,"end":10579.1,"text":"那沒關係我們就直接口頭一聲敘述"},{"start":10579.1,"end":10580.1,"text":"勞動部的部分"},{"start":10580.1,"end":10582.1,"text":"他是針對純就職的勞工"},{"start":10582.1,"end":10584.1,"text":"來做鼓勵自願提繳"},{"start":10584.1,"end":10587.1,"text":"或者是結薪就年資來做自願提繳"},{"start":10587.1,"end":10590.1,"text":"那我們的委員的部分"},{"start":10590.1,"end":10593.1,"text":"是針對勞退金條例第十四條"},{"start":10593.1,"end":10597.1,"text":"有十個版本的修法提案"},{"start":10597.1,"end":10600.1,"text":"大部分大概就是說"},{"start":10600.1,"end":10602.1,"text":"增加雇主的提撥率"},{"start":10602.1,"end":10604.1,"text":"從6%到8%或者是9%"},{"start":10604.1,"end":10607.1,"text":"那我把這個整理的這十個提案裡頭"},{"start":10607.1,"end":10608.1,"text":"我們可以看到"},{"start":10608.1,"end":10611.1,"text":"願意增加到8%的有四位"},{"start":10611.1,"end":10614.1,"text":"那從6%提包到9%的"},{"start":10614.1,"end":10617.1,"text":"會有也有四個提案"},{"start":10617.1,"end":10621.1,"text":"另外兩個提案大概就是提高勞工的"},{"start":10621.1,"end":10622.1,"text":"那個自願提撥率"},{"start":10622.1,"end":10624.1,"text":"還有就是說自願提撥的部分"},{"start":10624.1,"end":10627.1,"text":"可以來選擇那個投資項目"},{"start":10627.1,"end":10629.1,"text":"那我們現在我覺得"},{"start":10629.1,"end":10632.1,"text":"就過去的經驗來講的話"},{"start":10632.1,"end":10636.1,"text":"一下子把這個雇主提撥率提高"},{"start":10636.1,"end":10639.1,"text":"就是從6%不論是6%到8%"},{"start":10639.1,"end":10641.1,"text":"或者是6%到9%"},{"start":10641.1,"end":10643.1,"text":"都可能會造成企業動薪"},{"start":10643.1,"end":10644.1,"text":"加薪的動薪"},{"start":10644.1,"end":10646.1,"text":"就是它會減緩這個加薪"},{"start":10646.1,"end":10649.1,"text":"所以我個人會比較贊成就是說"},{"start":10649.1,"end":10650.1,"text":"應該要逐步調升"},{"start":10650.1,"end":10653.1,"text":"這樣子的話可以減輕企業的負擔"},{"start":10653.1,"end":10656.1,"text":"然後也不要讓我們這個加薪的機制"},{"start":10656.1,"end":10658.1,"text":"那個就是受到停滯"},{"start":10658.1,"end":10661.1,"text":"以上就是我的發言謝謝"},{"start":10662.47,"end":10664.47,"text":"謝謝林昭臻研究員"},{"start":10664.47,"end":10666.47,"text":"接下來請劉世豪院長"},{"start":10672.12,"end":10675.12,"text":"主席還有各位我們工會的代表"},{"start":10675.12,"end":10676.12,"text":"以及學者專家"},{"start":10676.12,"end":10679.12,"text":"還有我們行政機關的代表"},{"start":10679.12,"end":10680.12,"text":"今天大家好"},{"start":10680.12,"end":10684.12,"text":"非常高興有這個機會來參與"},{"start":10684.12,"end":10688.12,"text":"這個有關於勞退新救治的一個相關的一個修法的公聽會"},{"start":10688.12,"end":10692.12,"text":"那我們今天有兩個主題"},{"start":10692.12,"end":10694.12,"text":"第一個主題是跟勞保有關"},{"start":10694.12,"end":10697.12,"text":"第二個部分是跟勞退有關"},{"start":10697.12,"end":10701.12,"text":"那為什麼這兩個東西會有連動性呢"},{"start":10701.12,"end":10704.12,"text":"主要的原因就是我們一般的勞工"},{"start":10704.12,"end":10706.12,"text":"他如果退休的時候"},{"start":10706.12,"end":10708.12,"text":"通常他有兩筆的一個收入"},{"start":10708.12,"end":10712.12,"text":"第一個是有關於勞工保險的老年給付"},{"start":10712.12,"end":10714.12,"text":"第二個是勞工退休金條例"},{"start":10714.12,"end":10718.12,"text":"或者救治的勞工退休金這兩個部分"},{"start":10718.12,"end":10720.12,"text":"那這兩個部分來講的話"},{"start":10720.12,"end":10722.12,"text":"必須要整體並考量"},{"start":10722.12,"end":10725.12,"text":"那實際上世界銀行"},{"start":10725.12,"end":10729.12,"text":"它在1995年或2005年提出的方案當中"},{"start":10729.12,"end":10731.12,"text":"還要加上一個部分"},{"start":10731.12,"end":10734.12,"text":"就是剛剛我們中華電信的理事長所講的"},{"start":10734.12,"end":10736.12,"text":"像中華電信當中"},{"start":10736.12,"end":10740.12,"text":"從他薪資當中提撥3.5%的錢"},{"start":10740.12,"end":10742.12,"text":"放到買股票"},{"start":10742.12,"end":10746.12,"text":"那麼這個做退休以後的一個信託的部分"},{"start":10746.12,"end":10750.12,"text":"所以實際上來講真正老年保障當中有三層"},{"start":10750.12,"end":10753.12,"text":"第一層是勞保這是最基本的"},{"start":10753.12,"end":10755.12,"text":"第二個是職業年金"},{"start":10755.12,"end":10758.12,"text":"也就是我們講的這個勞工退休金"},{"start":10758.12,"end":10760.12,"text":"第三層是企業的年金"},{"start":10760.12,"end":10763.12,"text":"或者勞工他主動去投資"},{"start":10763.12,"end":10767.12,"text":"這個投保商業的年金這三層"},{"start":10767.12,"end":10771.12,"text":"這三層理想的狀態當中大致上是這樣的比例"},{"start":10771.12,"end":10773.12,"text":"也就是我們勞保來講的話"},{"start":10773.12,"end":10778.12,"text":"他的所得替代率將占他退休之後的30%到40%"},{"start":10779.53,"end":10782.53,"text":"那麼有關於職業年金也供勞工退休金的部分"},{"start":10782.53,"end":10785.53,"text":"占20%到30%"},{"start":10785.53,"end":10789.53,"text":"企業年金或者是勞工自己主動去投商業年金的部分"},{"start":10789.53,"end":10792.53,"text":"是20%到30%"},{"start":10792.53,"end":10794.53,"text":"也就是理想的狀態當中"},{"start":10794.53,"end":10799.53,"text":"一個勞工他如果5萬塊錢做最後退休的情況之下"},{"start":10799.53,"end":10804.53,"text":"他的老年的保障來講可以領到3萬5到5萬塊的錢"},{"start":10804.53,"end":10806.53,"text":"這是一個理想的狀態"},{"start":10806.53,"end":10808.53,"text":"所以說這兩個部分"},{"start":10808.53,"end":10812.53,"text":"甚至我們講三個部分必須一併的思考"},{"start":10813.19,"end":10816.19,"text":"那麼剛剛很多人提到勞工保險要改革"},{"start":10816.19,"end":10819.19,"text":"這個題目確實是一個老問題"},{"start":10819.19,"end":10822.19,"text":"不過新的一個狀態當中"},{"start":10822.19,"end":10827.19,"text":"我們參考其他世界各國的一個年金改革的狀態當中"},{"start":10827.19,"end":10829.19,"text":"必須要考慮一個現象"},{"start":10829.36,"end":10831.36,"text":"不管是我們的"},{"start":10831.32,"end":10833.32,"text":"勞保的費率提高"},{"start":10834.22,"end":10836.22,"text":"給付來講調整"},{"start":10836.48,"end":10841.48,"text":"或者是我們講我們投保新式的天花板再往上拉"},{"start":10841.48,"end":10843.48,"text":"他的前提要件"},{"start":10843.48,"end":10846.48,"text":"要達到我們的勞工的公平的話"},{"start":10846.48,"end":10849.48,"text":"還有世代當中要公平的話"},{"start":10849.48,"end":10851.48,"text":"必須要加入兩個因素"},{"start":10852.39,"end":10854.39,"text":"第一個"},{"start":10853.76,"end":10856.76,"text":"各位我們在立法院97年10月"},{"start":10856.76,"end":10859.76,"text":"訂勞工保險年金化的時候"},{"start":10859.76,"end":10864.76,"text":"不要忽略了我們的平均的投保薪資的計算"},{"start":10864.76,"end":10870.76,"text":"是按照你30年40年當中最高的60個月"},{"start":10870.76,"end":10874.76,"text":"也就是相當5年的薪水最高來做提撥"},{"start":10874.76,"end":10878.76,"text":"這個部分當然可以保障到勞工拿到很高的薪資"},{"start":10878.76,"end":10884.76,"text":"但是如果一個勞工他平均35年都是用最低工資"},{"start":10884.76,"end":10886.76,"text":"也是用低級來投保"},{"start":10886.92,"end":10889.92,"text":"最後的5年用最高的薪資投保"},{"start":10890.51,"end":10894.51,"text":"跟一個勞工他40年來都是用最高薪資投保"},{"start":10894.51,"end":10900.51,"text":"各位他得到的勞工退休的勞工老年級付是一樣的"},{"start":10900.51,"end":10902.51,"text":"那麼這樣情況之下"},{"start":10902.51,"end":10906.51,"text":"就會有較少比較少投保保費的人"},{"start":10906.51,"end":10912.51,"text":"去佔了平均他一直投保最高級距的他的這個便宜"},{"start":10912.51,"end":10914.51,"text":"所以這個部分來講"},{"start":10914.51,"end":10916.51,"text":"時間也經過那麼久"},{"start":10916.51,"end":10919.51,"text":"也證明這個對於我們的財務的公平性來講"},{"start":10919.51,"end":10921.51,"text":"是不公平的"},{"start":10921.51,"end":10923.51,"text":"所以這個時候必須要調整"},{"start":10923.51,"end":10926.51,"text":"慢慢從60個月往上拉"},{"start":10926.51,"end":10928.51,"text":"最後跟"},{"start":10928.55,"end":10931.55,"text":"歐洲現在目前國家大部分採用的方式"},{"start":10931.55,"end":10934.55,"text":"就是以質愛的平均來當作基準"},{"start":10934.55,"end":10938.55,"text":"這個情況之下才會達到勞工跟勞工之間的公平性"},{"start":10939.64,"end":10941.64,"text":"第二個是世代的公平性"},{"start":10942.39,"end":10944.39,"text":"要導入所謂自動調整機制"},{"start":10945.53,"end":10948.53,"text":"德國跟瑞典都在2002年"},{"start":10948.53,"end":10951.53,"text":"那段時間當中的改革當中"},{"start":10951.53,"end":10953.53,"text":"考慮到一個因素"},{"start":10953.68,"end":10955.68,"text":"由於我們在98年1月1號"},{"start":10955.68,"end":10957.68,"text":"採取年金制的情況之下"},{"start":10957.68,"end":10960.68,"text":"我們是用所謂的Pay as You Go System"},{"start":10960.68,"end":10963.68,"text":"也就是隨收隨付的一個機制"},{"start":10964.22,"end":10966.22,"text":"也就是說我們收來的保費"},{"start":10966.22,"end":10968.22,"text":"在這一代工作人口"},{"start":10968.22,"end":10972.22,"text":"收完之後給現在退休的人口"},{"start":10972.61,"end":10974.61,"text":"收來的給給付的"},{"start":10974.61,"end":10976.61,"text":"這個時候如果人數"},{"start":10976.61,"end":10978.61,"text":"他有調整的情況之下"},{"start":10978.61,"end":10981.61,"text":"你要加入這個自動調整機制"},{"start":10981.61,"end":10984.61,"text":"也就是說你必須要考慮到"},{"start":10984.61,"end":10985.61,"text":"超齡的年齡"},{"start":10985.61,"end":10986.61,"text":"預期壽命"},{"start":10986.61,"end":10990.61,"text":"跟少子化勞動力減少的目標"},{"start":10990.61,"end":10993.61,"text":"把總生育率跟勞動力的成長率做連動"},{"start":10993.61,"end":10995.61,"text":"乘以一個係數"},{"start":10995.61,"end":10998.61,"text":"這樣子的話世代契約才會公平"},{"start":10998.97,"end":10999.97,"text":"否則我們現老年人口"},{"start":10999.97,"end":11001.97,"text":"不斷增加的情況之下"},{"start":11001.97,"end":11003.97,"text":"你說要收我們年輕人口"},{"start":11003.97,"end":11005.97,"text":"很高很高的保費"},{"start":11005.97,"end":11008.97,"text":"這個情況之下對年輕的世代不公平"},{"start":11008.97,"end":11010.97,"text":"所以必須要加入這個係數"},{"start":11011.95,"end":11013.95,"text":"加入這兩個部分的情況之下"},{"start":11013.95,"end":11015.95,"text":"其他的部分的連動"},{"start":11015.95,"end":11018.95,"text":"才會變成符合公平的情形"},{"start":11020.4,"end":11022.4,"text":"考慮"},{"start":11021.45,"end":11023.45,"text":"我們現在退休後"},{"start":11023.45,"end":11025.45,"text":"目前來講鼓勵中高齡"},{"start":11025.45,"end":11027.45,"text":"還有高齡者在就業"},{"start":11027.45,"end":11030.45,"text":"那麼也必須要去參考歐洲國家"},{"start":11030.45,"end":11032.45,"text":"也是一樣我們人口都老年化"},{"start":11032.45,"end":11034.45,"text":"他加入的情況之下"},{"start":11034.45,"end":11037.45,"text":"目前是可以加入職業災害保險"},{"start":11037.45,"end":11040.45,"text":"我們考慮他可不可以加入所謂的勞工保險"},{"start":11040.45,"end":11042.45,"text":"然後再提高他的費率"},{"start":11042.45,"end":11046.45,"text":"讓他到退休的時候得到更好的保障"},{"start":11047.5,"end":11050.5,"text":"那麼第三個部分是有關於"},{"start":11050.5,"end":11053.5,"text":"勞工退休新就職的一個改革"},{"start":11053.5,"end":11056.5,"text":"那麼這個改革必須要考慮到"},{"start":11056.5,"end":11059.5,"text":"我們這個就職的足額提撥"},{"start":11059.5,"end":11061.5,"text":"他查緝的效能"},{"start":11061.5,"end":11064.5,"text":"我在這邊要幫各位說明一下"},{"start":11064.5,"end":11068.5,"text":"其實勞動部在兩個方面都做得非常好"},{"start":11068.5,"end":11071.5,"text":"可是我們今天主題發給各位學者專家的時候"},{"start":11071.5,"end":11073.5,"text":"這個指數寫錯了"},{"start":11073.5,"end":11075.5,"text":"首先第一個"},{"start":11075.5,"end":11078.5,"text":"我們勞保的基金的投資效率"},{"start":11078.5,"end":11080.5,"text":"實際上在這十年當中"},{"start":11080.5,"end":11083.5,"text":"是達到6.3%到8%"},{"start":11083.5,"end":11085.5,"text":"並不是寫3.4%"},{"start":11085.5,"end":11087.5,"text":"我們勞退來講的話"},{"start":11087.5,"end":11090.5,"text":"他投保新制的這個投資效率更高"},{"start":11090.5,"end":11092.5,"text":"那麼實際上"},{"start":11092.83,"end":11094.83,"text":"我們的勞工基金運用局來講"},{"start":11094.83,"end":11096.83,"text":"其實做得非常努力"},{"start":11096.83,"end":11100.83,"text":"那麼應該要把這個勞動基金運用局考慮"},{"start":11100.83,"end":11102.83,"text":"仿照行政法人的方式"},{"start":11102.83,"end":11106.83,"text":"讓這些人充足他的投資的人才"},{"start":11106.83,"end":11108.83,"text":"而且他新制必須要提高"},{"start":11108.83,"end":11110.83,"text":"加強這個效率"},{"start":11110.83,"end":11113.83,"text":"那麼這才是維繫我們勞保基金"},{"start":11113.83,"end":11115.83,"text":"或者我們勞退基金當中"},{"start":11115.83,"end":11117.83,"text":"不斷成長的一個功能"},{"start":11117.83,"end":11120.83,"text":"那麼有關於這個勞基法"},{"start":11120.83,"end":11122.83,"text":"現在"},{"start":11123.17,"end":11126.17,"text":"這個要個人上複製來講的話"},{"start":11126.17,"end":11127.17,"text":"要提高的部分"},{"start":11127.17,"end":11129.17,"text":"我建議"},{"start":11129.17,"end":11133.17,"text":"不管你要提高到8%、9%、10%"},{"start":11133.17,"end":11135.17,"text":"他必須要做一個考量"},{"start":11135.17,"end":11138.17,"text":"也就是你必須要製造一個誘因"},{"start":11138.17,"end":11143.17,"text":"讓勞工也必須要自願投提繳"},{"start":11143.17,"end":11144.17,"text":"這個情況之下"},{"start":11144.17,"end":11147.17,"text":"如果達到退休金他的提繳率"},{"start":11147.88,"end":11152.88,"text":"勞治雙方共同提到10%或甚至12%的情況之下"},{"start":11152.88,"end":11155.88,"text":"那麼各位勞工的退休保障當中"},{"start":11155.88,"end":11157.88,"text":"第二層的保障會急速提高"},{"start":11157.88,"end":11162.88,"text":"那麼他也可以部分的取代第三層的企業年金"},{"start":11162.88,"end":11164.88,"text":"那麼這個情況之下"},{"start":11164.88,"end":11168.88,"text":"勞工依照我們現在勞動基金運用局投資的效率"},{"start":11168.88,"end":11172.88,"text":"比平均最好的ETF一點都不差的情況之下"},{"start":11172.88,"end":11175.88,"text":"那麼這個時候他的老年保障"},{"start":11175.88,"end":11179.88,"text":"才有辦法達到他退休年金的所得替代率"},{"start":11179.88,"end":11182.88,"text":"70%到100%的情況"},{"start":11182.88,"end":11185.88,"text":"那麼這個是我的一個簡單的建議"},{"start":11185.88,"end":11188.88,"text":"那時間的關係我沒辦法講太多"},{"start":11188.88,"end":11193.88,"text":"這個資料我們提供給我們立法院租公來做參考"},{"start":11193.88,"end":11194.88,"text":"以上報告謝謝"},{"start":11194.88,"end":11196.88,"text":"謝謝劉世豪院長"},{"start":11197.74,"end":11199.74,"text":"接下來請劉喜婷委員"},{"start":11206.84,"end":11208.84,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":11208.84,"end":11211.84,"text":"今年五一勞工大遊行的訴求"},{"start":11211.84,"end":11214.84,"text":"大多聚焦在勞保跟勞退的權益制度改善"},{"start":11214.84,"end":11216.84,"text":"這些我們都清楚"},{"start":11216.84,"end":11219.84,"text":"這個大概是勞工政策非常大的一個深水區"},{"start":11219.84,"end":11220.84,"text":"但本行一向主張"},{"start":11220.84,"end":11222.84,"text":"我們不能因為他是深水區"},{"start":11222.84,"end":11224.84,"text":"所以就果足不前"},{"start":11224.84,"end":11225.84,"text":"所以在五一當天"},{"start":11225.84,"end":11229.84,"text":"我代表國民黨黨團到這個活動的會場"},{"start":11229.84,"end":11230.84,"text":"跟我們的勞工朋友站在一起"},{"start":11230.84,"end":11234.84,"text":"當然承諾希望安排我們溝通協調"},{"start":11234.84,"end":11237.84,"text":"我們衛環委員會來做公聽會先走"},{"start":11237.84,"end":11238.84,"text":"聽一聽大家的意見"},{"start":11238.84,"end":11241.84,"text":"讓勞工的聲音在立法院能夠充分的表達"},{"start":11241.84,"end":11245.84,"text":"同時本黨非常多的成員也非常積極的在參與提案"},{"start":11245.84,"end":11250.84,"text":"我們都希望藉此督促政府要正視勞工的權益問題"},{"start":11250.84,"end":11251.84,"text":"所以在此開場的時候"},{"start":11251.84,"end":11255.84,"text":"我們要特別謝謝盧憲一招委今天安排今天的公聽會"},{"start":11255.84,"end":11258.84,"text":"算是初步回應廣大的勞工朋友們的訴求"},{"start":11258.84,"end":11261.84,"text":"今天公聽會的重點大概分成勞保跟勞退"},{"start":11261.84,"end":11264.84,"text":"兩個階段來做處理"},{"start":11264.84,"end":11266.84,"text":"稍早我在辦公室聽了非常多先進前輩"},{"start":11266.84,"end":11269.84,"text":"以及勞工團體代表的不同的意見"},{"start":11269.84,"end":11271.84,"text":"這我想針對勞保的部分"},{"start":11271.84,"end":11273.84,"text":"大家當然都非常在乎勞工權益的提升"},{"start":11273.84,"end":11278.84,"text":"但是如何兼顧勞保的永續跟財政的相關紀律"},{"start":11278.84,"end":11280.84,"text":"這個概念都是非常非常可貴的"},{"start":11280.84,"end":11281.84,"text":"但是我也要講"},{"start":11281.84,"end":11283.84,"text":"過去我們都提到少子化"},{"start":11283.84,"end":11287.84,"text":"很有可能會造成財務跟結構失衡的問題"},{"start":11287.84,"end":11288.84,"text":"這都沒有錯的"},{"start":11288.84,"end":11289.84,"text":"但是我也必須要談一下"},{"start":11289.84,"end":11291.84,"text":"要幫廣大的基層勞工朋友喊喊聲"},{"start":11291.84,"end":11292.84,"text":"為什麼呢"},{"start":11292.84,"end":11294.84,"text":"因為過去20年甚至30年"},{"start":11294.84,"end":11296.84,"text":"過去當中還沒有少子化問題的時候"},{"start":11296.84,"end":11299.84,"text":"顯然我們每次在觸碰勞保議題的時候"},{"start":11299.84,"end":11302.84,"text":"恐怕政府的節奏也好或者是動作也好"},{"start":11302.84,"end":11304.84,"text":"恐怕都還是相對保守的"},{"start":11304.84,"end":11306.84,"text":"在過去條件相對好的時候"},{"start":11306.84,"end":11310.84,"text":"我們沒有大刀闊斧的來擴充勞工朋友的福利"},{"start":11310.84,"end":11312.84,"text":"到現在壓力很大的時候又講"},{"start":11312.84,"end":11314.84,"text":"現在因為少子化壓力又要裹足不前"},{"start":11314.84,"end":11317.84,"text":"我想這個強度是不足以推翻"},{"start":11317.84,"end":11320.84,"text":"必須被檢討必須被精進的這樣一個做法"},{"start":11320.84,"end":11321.84,"text":"這是本席的立場"},{"start":11321.84,"end":11323.84,"text":"我們希望大家可以集資廣益"},{"start":11323.84,"end":11325.84,"text":"當然可以有很多很好的配套措施"},{"start":11325.84,"end":11327.84,"text":"但是該往上走的還是要往上走"},{"start":11327.84,"end":11330.84,"text":"這我想是大部分勞工朋友心中真實的期望"},{"start":11330.84,"end":11334.84,"text":"那麼相對於勞保的議題"},{"start":11334.84,"end":11335.84,"text":"勞退的問題"},{"start":11335.84,"end":11336.84,"text":"我知道聽了一下公聽會的內容"},{"start":11336.84,"end":11338.84,"text":"相對來講應該是比較聚焦的"},{"start":11338.84,"end":11343.84,"text":"大部分人都認為既然是勞退取之於勞工自己"},{"start":11343.84,"end":11344.84,"text":"自願提繳的部分"},{"start":11344.84,"end":11346.84,"text":"跟雇主相應提繳的部分"},{"start":11346.84,"end":11349.84,"text":"不牽涉相關政府財政"},{"start":11349.84,"end":11351.84,"text":"跟少子化等等的問題的時候"},{"start":11351.84,"end":11353.84,"text":"大家反而心態上是比較開放的"},{"start":11353.84,"end":11356.84,"text":"所以不妨在未來修法的時候可以先行對焦"},{"start":11356.84,"end":11358.84,"text":"有共識的我們總可以先走"},{"start":11358.84,"end":11360.84,"text":"今天早上我們很多勞團的朋友"},{"start":11360.84,"end":11362.84,"text":"也在立法院的門口喊出"},{"start":11362.84,"end":11366.84,"text":"20年了還在6%的無奈的怒吼"},{"start":11366.84,"end":11369.84,"text":"怒吼這個%不是百分之幾%數的%"},{"start":11369.84,"end":11370.84,"text":"是%在地上的%"},{"start":11370.84,"end":11372.84,"text":"這次聽起來是蠻心酸的"},{"start":11372.84,"end":11374.84,"text":"讓人感到無比的沉重跟愧疚"},{"start":11374.84,"end":11378.84,"text":"勞退新制從2005年上路到現在"},{"start":11378.84,"end":11380.84,"text":"整整走過了20個年頭"},{"start":11380.84,"end":11383.84,"text":"20年前我們政府跟勞工朋友說"},{"start":11383.84,"end":11385.84,"text":"我們先求有再求好"},{"start":11385.84,"end":11387.84,"text":"但是這個有了之後"},{"start":11387.84,"end":11390.84,"text":"求好的過程一路掙扎了20年"},{"start":11390.84,"end":11393.84,"text":"700多萬名勞工朋友的老年保障"},{"start":11393.84,"end":11396.84,"text":"就硬生生凍結在百分之6"},{"start":11396.84,"end":11398.84,"text":"所以他講這6%是%在地上的%"},{"start":11398.84,"end":11400.84,"text":"那不妨看看最近的經濟數據"},{"start":11400.84,"end":11401.84,"text":"主計總數預估"},{"start":11401.84,"end":11405.84,"text":"今年GDP成長率高達9.64%"},{"start":11405.84,"end":11408.84,"text":"我們都很高興台灣的經濟狀況"},{"start":11408.84,"end":11410.84,"text":"總體經濟欣欣向榮"},{"start":11410.84,"end":11411.84,"text":"創下16年的新高"},{"start":11411.84,"end":11413.84,"text":"新制條幅看起來風光"},{"start":11413.84,"end":11416.84,"text":"但是這些所謂的經濟成長的果實"},{"start":11416.84,"end":11419.84,"text":"真的有分配給我們基層勞工朋友嗎"},{"start":11419.84,"end":11420.84,"text":"顯然沒有"},{"start":11420.84,"end":11422.84,"text":"勞工朋友尤其是基層辛苦的"},{"start":11422.84,"end":11425.84,"text":"反而面對的是通膨吃掉了薪水"},{"start":11425.84,"end":11426.84,"text":"物價的飛漲"},{"start":11426.84,"end":11428.84,"text":"我國消費者物價指數CPI"},{"start":11428.84,"end":11431.84,"text":"以2021年為100的基期"},{"start":11431.84,"end":11434.84,"text":"在2005年的時候是85.65"},{"start":11434.84,"end":11437.84,"text":"到上個月為止是112.01"},{"start":11437.84,"end":11440.84,"text":"也就是從勞退新制上路到現在"},{"start":11440.84,"end":11442.84,"text":"物價整整上漲30%"},{"start":11442.84,"end":11444.84,"text":"全台灣有高達7成"},{"start":11444.84,"end":11446.84,"text":"接近600萬名基層勞工"},{"start":11446.84,"end":11448.84,"text":"現在是連平均薪資恐怕都領不到"},{"start":11448.84,"end":11451.84,"text":"如果用現行的6%的提繳率去計算"},{"start":11451.84,"end":11452.84,"text":"工作25年"},{"start":11452.84,"end":11455.84,"text":"有一半以上的勞工退休金專戶"},{"start":11455.84,"end":11456.84,"text":"存不到100萬"},{"start":11456.84,"end":11458.84,"text":"請問這樣真的能夠保障"},{"start":11458.84,"end":11461.84,"text":"退休之後的安穩生活嗎"},{"start":11461.84,"end":11462.84,"text":"這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":11462.84,"end":11463.84,"text":"這樣一個殘忍的數據"},{"start":11463.84,"end":11465.84,"text":"表示我們的政府跟資方"},{"start":11465.84,"end":11467.84,"text":"把所有老後貧窮的風險"},{"start":11467.84,"end":11471.84,"text":"通通轉嫁給辛苦的基層勞工自行承擔"},{"start":11471.84,"end":11472.84,"text":"台灣的經濟成長"},{"start":11472.84,"end":11474.84,"text":"是大家通力合作"},{"start":11474.84,"end":11476.84,"text":"辛勤的汗水跟勞動換來的"},{"start":11476.84,"end":11478.84,"text":"經濟成長的果實"},{"start":11478.84,"end":11480.84,"text":"不應該只能留在資本家的口袋"},{"start":11480.84,"end":11481.84,"text":"分配的正義"},{"start":11481.84,"end":11483.84,"text":"我想是政府的很重要的一個責任"},{"start":11483.84,"end":11486.84,"text":"我想就從提高勞退的提繳率開始"},{"start":11488.19,"end":11489.19,"text":"勞工退休金制度"},{"start":11489.19,"end":11492.19,"text":"是我國多層次經濟安全保障制度的其中一環"},{"start":11492.19,"end":11493.19,"text":"物價逐年增長"},{"start":11493.19,"end":11496.19,"text":"本來就應該適時的檢討跟調整"},{"start":11496.19,"end":11497.19,"text":"我們很清楚"},{"start":11497.19,"end":11500.19,"text":"當然提高提繳率對雇主來講難免負擔"},{"start":11500.19,"end":11502.19,"text":"本席提出的修正查案"},{"start":11502.19,"end":11503.19,"text":"每年0.5%往上加"},{"start":11503.19,"end":11506.19,"text":"逐步上調至9%"},{"start":11506.19,"end":11508.19,"text":"這個設定最終上限"},{"start":11508.19,"end":11511.19,"text":"兼顧勞工老年的經濟安全保障"},{"start":11511.19,"end":11513.19,"text":"及減輕營運負擔衝擊"},{"start":11513.19,"end":11514.19,"text":"當然現在立法院"},{"start":11514.19,"end":11515.19,"text":"我也要提跨黨派"},{"start":11515.19,"end":11517.19,"text":"有十幾個修法的版本"},{"start":11517.19,"end":11521.19,"text":"有了8% 有了9% 有了10% 12% 甚至15%"},{"start":11521.19,"end":11522.19,"text":"版本再多"},{"start":11522.19,"end":11525.19,"text":"如果不排案不審查"},{"start":11525.19,"end":11526.19,"text":"那終究是原地踏步"},{"start":11526.19,"end":11528.19,"text":"對勞工朋友來說都是空話"},{"start":11528.19,"end":11530.19,"text":"所以本席最重要在今天"},{"start":11530.19,"end":11531.19,"text":"特別出席公聽會表態"},{"start":11531.19,"end":11533.19,"text":"我支持競速的排案審查"},{"start":11533.19,"end":11536.19,"text":"讓社會積極對話才有進步的動力"},{"start":11536.19,"end":11538.19,"text":"我對於版本最後的走向"},{"start":11538.19,"end":11540.19,"text":"心態保持開放"},{"start":11540.19,"end":11542.19,"text":"只要對基層勞工有利"},{"start":11542.19,"end":11544.19,"text":"我們都樂見往前走"},{"start":11545.19,"end":11547.19,"text":"今天參加公聽會"},{"start":11547.19,"end":11548.19,"text":"做出三點聲明"},{"start":11548.19,"end":11551.19,"text":"第一 本席堅定支持修法"},{"start":11551.19,"end":11554.19,"text":"提高雇主法定最低提繳率"},{"start":11554.19,"end":11556.19,"text":"這不是給勞工的恩惠"},{"start":11556.19,"end":11559.19,"text":"這是勞工期盼20年來基本的公道"},{"start":11559.19,"end":11562.19,"text":"第二 我們希望能夠積極的促進排案"},{"start":11562.19,"end":11564.19,"text":"我們知道未還委員會"},{"start":11564.19,"end":11566.19,"text":"這個會議非常非常的忙碌"},{"start":11566.19,"end":11567.19,"text":"但我想再怎麼忙碌"},{"start":11567.19,"end":11569.19,"text":"勞工權益我們還是要往前走"},{"start":11569.19,"end":11571.19,"text":"所以希望我會在我們政黨的委員會"},{"start":11571.19,"end":11573.19,"text":"跟黨團會議裡面持續的建議"},{"start":11573.19,"end":11574.19,"text":"持續的要求"},{"start":11574.19,"end":11576.19,"text":"希望技術將勞退條例14條修正案"},{"start":11576.19,"end":11578.19,"text":"排入實質審查"},{"start":11578.19,"end":11580.19,"text":"不要讓法案再躺在立法院的抽屜裡"},{"start":11580.19,"end":11583.19,"text":"第三 既然很多委員"},{"start":11583.19,"end":11584.19,"text":"跨黨派的委員"},{"start":11584.19,"end":11586.19,"text":"都提了相關的修正案"},{"start":11586.19,"end":11589.19,"text":"我們希望朝野在這樣子的民生法案上面"},{"start":11589.19,"end":11591.19,"text":"可以攜手努力"},{"start":11591.19,"end":11593.19,"text":"不要有太多的政治算計"},{"start":11593.19,"end":11596.19,"text":"共同以勞工退休的權益為最優先"},{"start":11596.19,"end":11597.19,"text":"希望在這一屆之內"},{"start":11597.19,"end":11599.19,"text":"可以讓勞退的調整"},{"start":11599.19,"end":11600.19,"text":"跟制度的改革"},{"start":11600.19,"end":11602.19,"text":"可以順利的完成刪除"},{"start":11602.19,"end":11604.19,"text":"勞工朋友奉獻青春"},{"start":11604.19,"end":11606.19,"text":"為台灣拼出經濟奇蹟"},{"start":11606.19,"end":11608.19,"text":"我想勞退新制的提高"},{"start":11608.19,"end":11610.19,"text":"不能再等今天是改變的開始"},{"start":11610.19,"end":11612.19,"text":"本期樂見社會提出對話"},{"start":11612.19,"end":11614.19,"text":"提出完善的配套措施"},{"start":11614.19,"end":11616.19,"text":"我們呼籲政府不要迴避問題"},{"start":11616.19,"end":11619.19,"text":"我們趕快正面積極的回應勞工朋友訴求"},{"start":11619.19,"end":11621.19,"text":"讓經濟成長的果實"},{"start":11621.19,"end":11624.19,"text":"成為勞工老年照顧最堅強的後盾"},{"start":11624.19,"end":11625.19,"text":"以上感謝"},{"start":11626.42,"end":11629.42,"text":"謝謝牛若雪婷委員的發言"},{"start":11630.25,"end":11632.25,"text":"接下來請侯月紅教授"},{"start":11650.33,"end":11654.33,"text":"召委還有在座的各位委員"},{"start":11654.33,"end":11658.33,"text":"還有委員的勞動部的前輩"},{"start":11658.33,"end":11660.33,"text":"還有供應界的前輩"},{"start":11660.33,"end":11663.33,"text":"還有雪婷專家大家午安"},{"start":11663.33,"end":11665.33,"text":"我好像是最後一位"},{"start":11665.33,"end":11667.33,"text":"那我現在覺得滿榮幸"},{"start":11667.33,"end":11670.33,"text":"來對於這樣的一個"},{"start":11670.33,"end":11672.33,"text":"退休性相關制度的部分"},{"start":11672.33,"end":11674.33,"text":"來表示一點意見"},{"start":11674.33,"end":11676.33,"text":"那這個"},{"start":11677.08,"end":11679.08,"text":"事實上"},{"start":11678.68,"end":11683.68,"text":"我自己是勞工家庭培養長大的"},{"start":11683.68,"end":11688.68,"text":"我母親以前是紡織廠的運斗的"},{"start":11689.16,"end":11692.16,"text":"那我剛好在前幾天我剛好回家"},{"start":11692.16,"end":11694.16,"text":"我媽媽跟我講了一句話"},{"start":11694.16,"end":11695.16,"text":"她說"},{"start":11695.87,"end":11697.87,"text":"還好我現在有年金"},{"start":11697.87,"end":11700.87,"text":"我當時還好沒有一次領"},{"start":11700.87,"end":11701.87,"text":"然後我領了15年"},{"start":11701.87,"end":11703.87,"text":"我以前同事都一次領的"},{"start":11703.87,"end":11705.87,"text":"現在都很後悔"},{"start":11707.32,"end":11709.32,"text":"我那時候內心就覺得"},{"start":11709.32,"end":11711.32,"text":"還好我研究勞工法"},{"start":11711.32,"end":11713.32,"text":"還好我有勞動部"},{"start":11713.32,"end":11716.32,"text":"還有與會的公會在座的委員"},{"start":11716.32,"end":11718.32,"text":"在20年前的各種努力"},{"start":11719.14,"end":11722.14,"text":"那我有這個機會聽到我母親跟我分享"},{"start":11722.14,"end":11724.14,"text":"她的這個喜悅"},{"start":11724.14,"end":11728.14,"text":"不過20年過去的確實"},{"start":11728.14,"end":11730.14,"text":"在這樣的一個制度"},{"start":11730.14,"end":11732.14,"text":"我也非常敬佩各位委員"},{"start":11732.14,"end":11734.14,"text":"這個我看到好多版本"},{"start":11734.14,"end":11737.14,"text":"這個版本大家其實方向都是一致的"},{"start":11737.14,"end":11741.14,"text":"那我事實上我今天來"},{"start":11741.14,"end":11742.14,"text":"我也利用機會"},{"start":11742.14,"end":11744.14,"text":"因為時間很有限"},{"start":11744.14,"end":11747.14,"text":"所以我昨天也這幾天也匆匆忙忙的"},{"start":11747.14,"end":11750.14,"text":"把日本的制度稍微收羅一遍"},{"start":11750.14,"end":11752.14,"text":"也沒有太多時間去翻譯"},{"start":11752.14,"end":11755.14,"text":"不過我現在Chop GPT也滿厲害的"},{"start":11755.14,"end":11756.14,"text":"各位如果有興趣"},{"start":11756.14,"end":11757.14,"text":"應該馬上就翻得出來"},{"start":11757.14,"end":11759.14,"text":"那這日本的部分事實上"},{"start":11760.79,"end":11762.79,"text":"過去的研究裡面"},{"start":11762.79,"end":11764.79,"text":"跟台灣比較不一樣"},{"start":11764.79,"end":11766.79,"text":"他們是有一個所謂的基礎性的"},{"start":11766.79,"end":11768.79,"text":"就是國民年金是基礎"},{"start":11768.79,"end":11769.79,"text":"然後他就階層"},{"start":11769.79,"end":11771.79,"text":"第一層第二層第三層這樣下去的"},{"start":11771.79,"end":11772.79,"text":"然後慢慢累積上去"},{"start":11772.79,"end":11775.79,"text":"第一層大概是這樣的一個國民年金"},{"start":11775.79,"end":11777.79,"text":"第二層大概是"},{"start":11777.79,"end":11780.79,"text":"就是那時候我們的勞工保險"},{"start":11780.79,"end":11782.79,"text":"相關機制的這個後生年金的部分"},{"start":11782.79,"end":11785.79,"text":"然後第三層上面這樣一根一根的"},{"start":11785.79,"end":11786.79,"text":"就是各個企業"},{"start":11786.79,"end":11788.79,"text":"或者是各個勞工自己有興趣的"},{"start":11788.79,"end":11790.79,"text":"再去做一些增加"},{"start":11790.79,"end":11793.79,"text":"大概這是他們的整個的一個制度"},{"start":11793.79,"end":11796.79,"text":"所以想說這個日本的發展"},{"start":11796.79,"end":11797.79,"text":"我們也滿常參考的"},{"start":11797.79,"end":11800.79,"text":"所以透過今天日本的制度"},{"start":11800.79,"end":11802.79,"text":"來提供這個與會的"},{"start":11802.79,"end":11804.79,"text":"包含這個各位委員"},{"start":11804.79,"end":11807.79,"text":"還有這個勞動部做一下參考"},{"start":11808.78,"end":11810.78,"text":"在這樣的一個方向裡面"},{"start":11810.78,"end":11813.78,"text":"這個如果以中間的那個軸線"},{"start":11813.78,"end":11815.78,"text":"他們大概日本的話大概"},{"start":11815.78,"end":11817.78,"text":"他用基礎年金跟後生年金"},{"start":11817.78,"end":11819.78,"text":"兩個來相比的話"},{"start":11819.78,"end":11822.78,"text":"過去在這個大概是"},{"start":11822.78,"end":11826.78,"text":"2004年這個五六年前"},{"start":11826.78,"end":11828.78,"text":"他們所得的替代率大概是"},{"start":11830.25,"end":11832.25,"text":"這個大概到50%左右"},{"start":11832.25,"end":11836.25,"text":"大概月薪是整個合起來大概15萬日幣"},{"start":11836.25,"end":11838.25,"text":"但是在2024年的時候"},{"start":11838.25,"end":11840.25,"text":"他們大概整個合起來"},{"start":11840.25,"end":11842.25,"text":"大概是22萬日幣"},{"start":11842.25,"end":11845.25,"text":"那所得替代率大概是61%左右"},{"start":11845.25,"end":11847.25,"text":"大概這是他們的一個"},{"start":11847.25,"end":11849.25,"text":"目前的一個狀況"},{"start":11849.25,"end":11851.25,"text":"而在這樣的一個狀況裡面"},{"start":11851.25,"end":11853.25,"text":"我覺得大家要留意的"},{"start":11854.36,"end":11856.36,"text":"這個圖再回來解釋"},{"start":11856.36,"end":11857.36,"text":"事實上他們在2025年"},{"start":11857.36,"end":11858.36,"text":"有做了一些修法"},{"start":11858.36,"end":11861.36,"text":"其實他們的修法也跟各位"},{"start":11861.36,"end":11864.36,"text":"立法委員 諸公所"},{"start":11864.36,"end":11866.36,"text":"這個目前在推動的"},{"start":11866.36,"end":11868.36,"text":"事實上也是相關的"},{"start":11868.36,"end":11870.36,"text":"其實他們也著重了幾個議題"},{"start":11870.36,"end":11872.36,"text":"一個當然是擴大保險對象"},{"start":11872.36,"end":11874.36,"text":"這個包含這個"},{"start":11874.97,"end":11876.97,"text":"他們因為太多那種所謂的打工族"},{"start":11876.97,"end":11878.97,"text":"所以把打工族的納入"},{"start":11878.97,"end":11880.97,"text":"這是他們其中的一個部分"},{"start":11880.97,"end":11882.97,"text":"然後再"},{"start":11884.01,"end":11886.01,"text":"這個"},{"start":11885.16,"end":11887.16,"text":"其中倒數第二個的部分"},{"start":11887.61,"end":11890.61,"text":"其實就是為了擴大後續的給付"},{"start":11890.61,"end":11892.61,"text":"因為他們的後續的給付"},{"start":11892.61,"end":11894.61,"text":"以前有設了一個"},{"start":11894.61,"end":11898.61,"text":"就是說投保月薪的上限"},{"start":11898.61,"end":11900.61,"text":"他月薪他有一個上限"},{"start":11900.61,"end":11902.61,"text":"那變成那個領月高"},{"start":11902.61,"end":11903.61,"text":"你薪水月高"},{"start":11903.61,"end":11905.61,"text":"但是他就是有一個上限"},{"start":11905.61,"end":11907.61,"text":"這個天花板在那邊"},{"start":11907.61,"end":11911.61,"text":"所以等於你最後提繳的就是那些錢"},{"start":11911.61,"end":11913.61,"text":"所以你錢賺的再多"},{"start":11913.61,"end":11916.61,"text":"你最後到時候你年金的時候"},{"start":11916.61,"end":11917.61,"text":"就是那些錢"},{"start":11917.61,"end":11919.61,"text":"所以他們這次開放就是說"},{"start":11919.61,"end":11922.61,"text":"你所得後續的那個上限"},{"start":11922.61,"end":11925.61,"text":"領月高的他們逐步讓那個上限"},{"start":11925.61,"end":11928.61,"text":"稍微有一個放鬆的可能性"},{"start":11928.61,"end":11931.61,"text":"這是他們第一個的一個改變"},{"start":11931.61,"end":11933.61,"text":"那他們第二個改變"},{"start":11933.61,"end":11934.61,"text":"一個我覺得也滿重要的"},{"start":11935.33,"end":11937.33,"text":"其實字有點小"},{"start":11937.64,"end":11939.64,"text":"核心就在最後兩行"},{"start":11940.04,"end":11942.04,"text":"最後兩行小的字"},{"start":11942.04,"end":11945.04,"text":"就是他們的國會議員所加上去的"},{"start":11945.04,"end":11948.04,"text":"國會議員在修法的時候"},{"start":11948.31,"end":11949.31,"text":"他說"},{"start":11949.4,"end":11952.4,"text":"以後按照社會經濟的歧視"},{"start":11953.37,"end":11956.37,"text":"參考這個基礎年金的給付水準"},{"start":11956.98,"end":11960.98,"text":"然後也看整個的一個經濟的一個狀況"},{"start":11961.45,"end":11964.45,"text":"要賦予機關"},{"start":11965.33,"end":11966.33,"text":"有一個"},{"start":11967.6,"end":11973.6,"text":"就是維持基本金額的處置的一個空間"},{"start":11973.6,"end":11975.6,"text":"換言之他們也是擔心說"},{"start":11975.6,"end":11977.6,"text":"因為經濟局勢的變動"},{"start":11977.6,"end":11980.6,"text":"結果錢不一定能夠領到那麼多"},{"start":11980.6,"end":11981.6,"text":"沒有一個確保"},{"start":11981.6,"end":11983.6,"text":"這也是他們擔心的事情"},{"start":11983.6,"end":11985.6,"text":"所以在這個背景裡面"},{"start":11985.6,"end":11986.6,"text":"就是這個圖"},{"start":11986.6,"end":11988.6,"text":"也是我們各位委員"},{"start":11988.6,"end":11991.6,"text":"目前在推動的一個就是說"},{"start":11991.6,"end":11994.6,"text":"要不要再設所謂的一個基礎"},{"start":11994.6,"end":11997.6,"text":"這樣的一個下線的這個問題"},{"start":11997.6,"end":12000.6,"text":"日本他們是沒有想那麼死"},{"start":12000.6,"end":12004.6,"text":"沒有說一定要說幾%"},{"start":12004.6,"end":12005.6,"text":"不過他們事實上"},{"start":12005.6,"end":12007.6,"text":"他們在2016年的修法裡面"},{"start":12007.6,"end":12009.6,"text":"基本上有要求一個就是"},{"start":12009.6,"end":12012.6,"text":"基本上整個合起來"},{"start":12012.6,"end":12014.6,"text":"所得替代率是在50%"},{"start":12014.6,"end":12016.6,"text":"有一個基礎在這邊"},{"start":12016.6,"end":12018.6,"text":"那這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":12018.6,"end":12020.6,"text":"就還是進一步要求說"},{"start":12020.6,"end":12022.6,"text":"你至少這個"},{"start":12022.6,"end":12024.6,"text":"如果經濟狀況有變動的時候"},{"start":12024.6,"end":12026.6,"text":"我們可以相關部門"},{"start":12026.6,"end":12029.6,"text":"有一個去調整的可能性"},{"start":12029.6,"end":12031.6,"text":"所以這也是這個圖"},{"start":12031.6,"end":12033.6,"text":"在2025年修法之後"},{"start":12033.6,"end":12035.6,"text":"他們就會有這樣的一個"},{"start":12035.6,"end":12038.6,"text":"也是一樣因應經濟變動的可能性"},{"start":12038.6,"end":12040.6,"text":"我想這個變動"},{"start":12040.6,"end":12042.6,"text":"剛也是符合我們目前討論的一個議題"},{"start":12042.6,"end":12044.6,"text":"也是滿值得參考"},{"start":12044.6,"end":12049.6,"text":"所以在這樣的一個方向之下"},{"start":12049.6,"end":12051.6,"text":"我們從日本也看到他們因應"},{"start":12051.6,"end":12053.6,"text":"他們比我們還早高齡化"},{"start":12053.6,"end":12054.6,"text":"他們即使這樣"},{"start":12054.6,"end":12057.6,"text":"他們也逐步的一直在做一些調整"},{"start":12057.6,"end":12061.6,"text":"那我也非常感謝這個眾多的委員"},{"start":12061.6,"end":12064.6,"text":"去提這樣的一個提案"},{"start":12064.6,"end":12067.6,"text":"然後我想老公朋友都很關心"},{"start":12067.6,"end":12069.6,"text":"那對這兩個議題"},{"start":12069.6,"end":12072.6,"text":"我也是滿支持應該立即"},{"start":12072.6,"end":12074.6,"text":"而且持續的去修正"},{"start":12074.6,"end":12076.6,"text":"因為我真的非常感謝"},{"start":12076.6,"end":12077.6,"text":"因為各位的努力"},{"start":12077.6,"end":12080.6,"text":"那我的母親能夠領到這樣的一個年金"},{"start":12080.6,"end":12082.6,"text":"這麼的開心"},{"start":12082.6,"end":12084.6,"text":"我想各位在持續的一個修法"},{"start":12084.6,"end":12086.6,"text":"能夠讓我們整個的一個制度更完善"},{"start":12086.6,"end":12088.6,"text":"我想應該會更多的老公朋友"},{"start":12088.6,"end":12090.6,"text":"應該會再更開心"},{"start":12090.6,"end":12092.6,"text":"不過這一些都應該就要逐步"},{"start":12092.6,"end":12094.6,"text":"因為我怕到時候公司都倒了"},{"start":12094.6,"end":12095.6,"text":"大家都領不到"},{"start":12095.6,"end":12097.6,"text":"那就更可憐了"},{"start":12097.6,"end":12098.6,"text":"大概以上謝謝"},{"start":12099.95,"end":12101.95,"text":"謝謝侯月紅教授"},{"start":12102.88,"end":12105.88,"text":"學者專家及委員均於發言完畢"},{"start":12105.88,"end":12107.88,"text":"請行政進行最後整體回應"},{"start":12116.18,"end":12118.18,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":12118.18,"end":12121.18,"text":"各位工會團體的代表"},{"start":12121.18,"end":12123.18,"text":"僱主團體的代表"},{"start":12123.18,"end":12127.18,"text":"還有各位老師教授專家學者們"},{"start":12127.18,"end":12130.18,"text":"非常感謝大家對於今天"},{"start":12130.18,"end":12135.18,"text":"有關於勞保跟勞退修法的相關建言"},{"start":12135.18,"end":12137.18,"text":"那勞動部基於保障勞工"},{"start":12137.18,"end":12140.18,"text":"老年退休保障的這些權益"},{"start":12140.18,"end":12144.18,"text":"與會代表所提的這些寶貴的意見"},{"start":12144.18,"end":12146.18,"text":"我們都非常的重視"},{"start":12146.18,"end":12148.18,"text":"也都詳實的記錄下來"},{"start":12148.18,"end":12150.18,"text":"首先在勞保的部分"},{"start":12150.18,"end":12154.18,"text":"勞保條例裡頭有規定"},{"start":12154.18,"end":12158.18,"text":"把其他裁員的挹注跟相關的收入"},{"start":12158.18,"end":12161.18,"text":"納入勞保基金的來源"},{"start":12161.18,"end":12163.18,"text":"並且訂明"},{"start":12163.18,"end":12167.18,"text":"明定說依政府的財政跟勞保財務狀況"},{"start":12167.18,"end":12171.18,"text":"每年編列預算來撥補勞保基金"},{"start":12171.18,"end":12175.18,"text":"那未來勞動部也會持續的爭取"},{"start":12175.18,"end":12178.18,"text":"以不低於去年度撥補的金額"},{"start":12178.18,"end":12181.18,"text":"持續的來編列預算"},{"start":12181.18,"end":12183.18,"text":"那剛剛大家也提到的很多"},{"start":12183.18,"end":12187.18,"text":"希望能夠調高勞保投保級距"},{"start":12187.18,"end":12190.18,"text":"那這幾年勞保基金的財務"},{"start":12190.18,"end":12195.18,"text":"在政府持續的撥補跟基金運用管理"},{"start":12195.18,"end":12199.18,"text":"還算是相當有成效的情況之下"},{"start":12199.18,"end":12203.18,"text":"勞保基金的規模是有成長"},{"start":12203.18,"end":12207.18,"text":"但是我們面對未來的退休潮"},{"start":12207.18,"end":12210.18,"text":"其實現在光是靠勞保的收入"},{"start":12210.18,"end":12212.18,"text":"要來負擔這些支出"},{"start":12212.18,"end":12214.18,"text":"以及那個缺口會越來越大"},{"start":12214.18,"end":12218.18,"text":"所以這個挑戰還是相當的嚴峻"},{"start":12218.18,"end":12221.18,"text":"所以也請各位委員"},{"start":12221.18,"end":12224.18,"text":"各位代表們能夠容許我們再做"},{"start":12224.18,"end":12228.18,"text":"更詳盡的一些財務上的評估"},{"start":12228.18,"end":12231.18,"text":"那只要是能夠照顧到勞工權益的"},{"start":12231.18,"end":12235.18,"text":"勞動部不會置之不管"},{"start":12235.18,"end":12238.18,"text":"我們一定會非常努力的朝這個目標來努力"},{"start":12238.18,"end":12241.18,"text":"那有關於勞工退休金的部分"},{"start":12241.18,"end":12243.18,"text":"不論是存薪制"},{"start":12243.18,"end":12245.18,"text":"或者是保留就職"},{"start":12245.18,"end":12247.18,"text":"選擇薪制"},{"start":12247.18,"end":12250.18,"text":"或者是存就職的勞工"},{"start":12250.18,"end":12253.18,"text":"如何實質的增加勞工的退休金"},{"start":12253.18,"end":12257.18,"text":"一直是勞動部持續努力的方向"},{"start":12257.18,"end":12259.18,"text":"那今天公聽會一開始"},{"start":12259.18,"end":12261.18,"text":"我也跟大家報告了"},{"start":12261.18,"end":12264.18,"text":"我們最近所提出的一些方案"},{"start":12264.18,"end":12268.18,"text":"大致上工商團體都很支持"},{"start":12268.18,"end":12271.18,"text":"我們這樣子的修法的方向"},{"start":12271.18,"end":12274.18,"text":"那為了要後時勞工的退休金"},{"start":12274.18,"end":12277.18,"text":"勞動部最近提出的勞退"},{"start":12277.18,"end":12279.18,"text":"存就職勞工自願提繳"},{"start":12279.18,"end":12282.18,"text":"跟提前節省的退休金方案"},{"start":12282.18,"end":12284.18,"text":"就是要增加存就職的勞工"},{"start":12284.18,"end":12286.18,"text":"自願提繳退休金"},{"start":12286.18,"end":12289.18,"text":"跟勞固雙方合意提繳"},{"start":12289.18,"end":12292.18,"text":"提前節省退休金的選擇"},{"start":12292.18,"end":12294.18,"text":"在薪制退休"},{"start":12294.18,"end":12296.18,"text":"退休金制度"},{"start":12296.18,"end":12298.18,"text":"也確立了雇主"},{"start":12298.18,"end":12301.18,"text":"收取勞工自願提繳退休金的義務"},{"start":12301.18,"end":12304.18,"text":"我們持續在薪就職"},{"start":12304.18,"end":12307.18,"text":"退休金的制度上來精進"},{"start":12307.18,"end":12309.18,"text":"保障勞工的權益"},{"start":12309.18,"end":12311.18,"text":"考量到"},{"start":12312.18,"end":12315.18,"text":"勞退薪制雇主提繳率"},{"start":12315.18,"end":12319.18,"text":"因為它會影響到目前已經提繳的"},{"start":12319.18,"end":12321.18,"text":"60多萬個事業單位的雇主"},{"start":12321.18,"end":12324.18,"text":"已經將近800萬個"},{"start":12324.18,"end":12327.18,"text":"適用薪制勞工的重大影響"},{"start":12327.18,"end":12329.18,"text":"所以各項的調整"},{"start":12329.18,"end":12331.18,"text":"我們都要多方面的"},{"start":12331.18,"end":12334.18,"text":"多角度的審慎的考量"},{"start":12334.18,"end":12337.18,"text":"那今天也非常感謝我們很多的"},{"start":12337.18,"end":12339.18,"text":"雇主團體"},{"start":12339.18,"end":12341.18,"text":"勞工團體跟學者專家"},{"start":12341.18,"end":12343.18,"text":"跟委員們提供給我們"},{"start":12343.18,"end":12345.18,"text":"非常多的寶貴的意見"},{"start":12345.18,"end":12347.18,"text":"我們非常願意"},{"start":12347.18,"end":12352.18,"text":"努力的來做這方面的研議"},{"start":12354.42,"end":12356.42,"text":"所以剛剛有講到說"},{"start":12356.42,"end":12362.42,"text":"調高勞保投保薪資分級表的上限"},{"start":12362.42,"end":12364.42,"text":"基金運用這些建言"},{"start":12364.42,"end":12368.42,"text":"我們都會眾而評估對勞保財務的影響"},{"start":12368.42,"end":12371.42,"text":"我還是要強調一點就是說"},{"start":12371.42,"end":12372.42,"text":"今天在座的"},{"start":12372.42,"end":12373.42,"text":"不管是各位委員"},{"start":12373.42,"end":12375.42,"text":"或者是公會團體的代表"},{"start":12375.42,"end":12377.42,"text":"或者是各位的老師"},{"start":12377.42,"end":12380.42,"text":"專家學者跟雇主團體"},{"start":12380.42,"end":12383.42,"text":"我們其實是在不同的崗位上"},{"start":12383.42,"end":12385.42,"text":"為共同的目標在努力"},{"start":12385.42,"end":12388.42,"text":"那過去這些時間以來"},{"start":12388.42,"end":12392.42,"text":"洪部長所帶領的勞動部的同仁"},{"start":12392.42,"end":12393.42,"text":"我們一直都"},{"start":12393.42,"end":12396.42,"text":"經經驗驗的在朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":12396.42,"end":12400.42,"text":"那感謝大家提供給我們非常多的建言"},{"start":12400.42,"end":12401.42,"text":"那我也希望"},{"start":12401.42,"end":12405.42,"text":"我們能夠很快的把這個共識整合出來"},{"start":12405.42,"end":12407.42,"text":"今天非常謝謝大院"},{"start":12407.42,"end":12409.42,"text":"安排了這樣的公聽會"},{"start":12409.42,"end":12411.42,"text":"這絕對不會是最後一場"},{"start":12411.42,"end":12415.42,"text":"將來我們會願意繼續虛心的來"},{"start":12415.42,"end":12418.42,"text":"傾聽大家的意見跟想法"},{"start":12418.42,"end":12419.42,"text":"凝聚共識"},{"start":12419.42,"end":12422.42,"text":"然後對勞工的退休保障"},{"start":12422.42,"end":12424.42,"text":"跟退休金的厚實"},{"start":12424.42,"end":12426.42,"text":"能夠做出更實質的貢獻"},{"start":12426.42,"end":12427.42,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12430.81,"end":12432.81,"text":"謝謝黃琳娜次長"},{"start":12433.73,"end":12436.73,"text":"委員曾經會所提的宿命資料列入公報記錄"},{"start":12436.73,"end":12438.73,"text":"作以下結論"},{"start":12438.73,"end":12440.73,"text":"依據立法院之前巡視法"},{"start":12440.73,"end":12442.73,"text":"規定委員會的"},{"start":12443.18,"end":12445.18,"text":"公聽會報告"},{"start":12445.18,"end":12447.18,"text":"宋教本院全體委員及出席者"},{"start":12447.18,"end":12450.18,"text":"公聽會報告作為審查特定議案的參考"},{"start":12450.18,"end":12454.18,"text":"我們會把各位的寶貴意見及宿命資料彙編成冊"},{"start":12454.18,"end":12457.18,"text":"分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政府機關代表"},{"start":12457.18,"end":12459.18,"text":"學者專家參閱"},{"start":12459.18,"end":12462.18,"text":"今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見"},{"start":12462.18,"end":12464.18,"text":"本次公聽會到此結束"},{"start":12464.18,"end":12465.18,"text":"上會"},{"start":12505.86,"end":12506.86,"text":"再見"},{"start":12526.97,"end":12527.97,"text":"再見"},{"start":12529.35,"end":12531.35,"text":"再見"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}