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全序部的"},{"start":1884.64,"end":1885.64,"text":"聖哲傑市部長"},{"start":1885.64,"end":1887.64,"text":"那麼以上"},{"start":1889.02,"end":1891.42,"text":"那麼我們其他的"},{"start":1892.64,"end":1893.64,"text":"還沒有介紹的歷史代表"},{"start":1893.64,"end":1894.64,"text":"就請蔡月明"},{"start":1894.64,"end":1895.64,"text":"單不再逐一介紹"},{"start":1895.64,"end":1897.64,"text":"我們就列入公報紀錄"},{"start":1897.64,"end":1898.64,"text":"那本日的議程"},{"start":1898.64,"end":1900.64,"text":"主要是排定兩個專題報告"},{"start":1900.64,"end":1901.64,"text":"分別為中聯治癌"},{"start":1901.64,"end":1903.64,"text":"由事件的偵辦調查"},{"start":1903.64,"end":1905.64,"text":"消費者權益及食安監管"},{"start":1905.64,"end":1907.64,"text":"然後第二個主題就是"},{"start":1907.64,"end":1908.64,"text":"現行公職人員"},{"start":1908.64,"end":1910.64,"text":"利益衝突回避"},{"start":1910.64,"end":1911.64,"text":"即離職公務員"},{"start":1911.64,"end":1912.64,"text":"旋轉門機制的"},{"start":1912.64,"end":1915.64,"text":"執行成效與法制缺失"},{"start":1915.64,"end":1916.64,"text":"那稍後與機關代表"},{"start":1916.64,"end":1917.64,"text":"報告完畢後"},{"start":1917.64,"end":1919.64,"text":"我們就再一併進行尋答"},{"start":1921.8500000000001,"end":1922.8500000000001,"text":"那現在陳昭市委員"},{"start":1922.8500000000001,"end":1924.8500000000001,"text":"請先發言"},{"start":1924.8500000000001,"end":1926.8500000000001,"text":"對我想要做程序發言"},{"start":1927.88,"end":1928.88,"text":"主席各位"},{"start":1928.88,"end":1930.88,"text":"今天司法法制委員會"},{"start":1930.88,"end":1932.88,"text":"排定專題報告"},{"start":1932.88,"end":1933.48,"text":"要求監察院國會"},{"start":1933.48,"end":1935.48,"text":"以及經濟部等機關"},{"start":1935.48,"end":1936.48,"text":"要針對國發基金"},{"start":1936.48,"end":1938.48,"text":"及政府補助不當益助"},{"start":1938.48,"end":1940.48,"text":"蘇小淳相關公司的爭議"},{"start":1940.48,"end":1942.48,"text":"提出檢討跟說明"},{"start":1942.48,"end":1945.48,"text":"但監察院不僅沒有提出書面報告"},{"start":1945.48,"end":1947.48,"text":"甚至連一名代表都不出席"},{"start":1947.48,"end":1949.48,"text":"這面對國會監督機"},{"start":1949.48,"end":1951.48,"text":"人民對公帑流向的質疑"},{"start":1951.48,"end":1954.48,"text":"監察院居然選擇集體消失"},{"start":1954.9,"end":1955.9,"text":"這不是行政疏失"},{"start":1955.9,"end":1957.9,"text":"而是公然藐視國會"},{"start":1957.9,"end":1958.9,"text":"逃避監督"},{"start":1958.9,"end":1961.9,"text":"我們要問監察院你在怕什麼"},{"start":1961.9,"end":1963.9,"text":"蘇小淳擔任董事監理運動的"},{"start":1963.9,"end":1964.9,"text":"曠世智能"},{"start":1964.9,"end":1965.9,"text":"再起付蘇貞昌"},{"start":1965.9,"end":1966.9,"text":"擔任行政部長期間"},{"start":1966.9,"end":1967.9,"text":"獲國發基金會"},{"start":1967.9,"end":1969.9,"text":"將近兩千萬的補助"},{"start":1969.9,"end":1970.9,"text":"與蘇小淳及SWAP"},{"start":1970.9,"end":1972.9,"text":"AkaSWAP營運並且相關的"},{"start":1972.9,"end":1973.9,"text":"微弩課金"},{"start":1973.9,"end":1974.9,"text":"也取得經濟部跟文化部"},{"start":1974.9,"end":1976.9,"text":"將近六百萬的補助"},{"start":1976.9,"end":1978.9,"text":"相關的公司關心資金流向"},{"start":1978.9,"end":1980.9,"text":"補助跟投資關係"},{"start":1980.9,"end":1982.9,"text":"之間的時間點"},{"start":1982.9,"end":1984.9,"text":"是否有依照公職人員利益衝突"},{"start":1984.9,"end":1986.9,"text":"迴避法來主動揭露"},{"start":1986.9,"end":1987.9,"text":"白紙黑字是證據在"},{"start":1987.9,"end":1990.9,"text":"絕對不是一句烏龍爆料"},{"start":1991.64,"end":1992.64,"text":"可以補助的"},{"start":2005.97,"end":2007.97,"text":"一碰到綠色權貴"},{"start":2007.97,"end":2009.97,"text":"蘇貞昌家族立刻轉彎"},{"start":2009.97,"end":2010.97,"text":"整個虛掉了"},{"start":2011.4,"end":2013.4,"text":"所以我們這個要求"},{"start":2013.4,"end":2015.4,"text":"這個本席提出三點要求"},{"start":2015.4,"end":2017.4,"text":"這個既然你監察院拒絕到場"},{"start":2017.4,"end":2018.4,"text":"不讓問題消失"},{"start":2018.4,"end":2020.4,"text":"不會讓問題消失的"},{"start":2020.4,"end":2021.4,"text":"只會證明所謂的"},{"start":2021.4,"end":2022.4,"text":"獨立行使權"},{"start":2022.4,"end":2025.4,"text":"受到了綠色權貴的這個面前"},{"start":2025.4,"end":2027.4,"text":"就變成選擇性的失義"},{"start":2027.4,"end":2029.4,"text":"選擇性的失明"},{"start":2029.4,"end":2031.4,"text":"選擇性的失職"},{"start":2031.4,"end":2033.4,"text":"所以第一我們請主席裁示"},{"start":2033.4,"end":2035.4,"text":"嚴正譴責監察院聚焦數面報告"},{"start":2035.4,"end":2037.4,"text":"拒派代表練習"},{"start":2037.4,"end":2039.4,"text":"並列入委員會的公告"},{"start":2039.4,"end":2041.4,"text":"第二要求監察院現期補充"},{"start":2041.4,"end":2042.4,"text":"完成的報告"},{"start":2042.4,"end":2044.4,"text":"說明是否受理立案"},{"start":2045.58,"end":2046.58,"text":"目前的辦理進度"},{"start":2046.58,"end":2047.58,"text":"第三"},{"start":2047.58,"end":2049.58,"text":"另外定期再次邀請"},{"start":2049.58,"end":2051.58,"text":"這個監察院練習"},{"start":2051.58,"end":2053.58,"text":"如果拒絕再出席的話"},{"start":2053.58,"end":2055.58,"text":"應該將相關預算及適職責任"},{"start":2055.58,"end":2057.58,"text":"列為後續審查及究責的事項"},{"start":2057.58,"end":2059.58,"text":"國會監督"},{"start":2059.58,"end":2061.58,"text":"不是請客吃飯"},{"start":2061.58,"end":2063.58,"text":"公堂也不是權貴家族的提款機"},{"start":2063.58,"end":2065.58,"text":"監察院你可以今天回避會議"},{"start":2065.58,"end":2067.58,"text":"這逃不過人民的這個檢驗"},{"start":2067.58,"end":2069.58,"text":"請監察院停止護航"},{"start":2069.58,"end":2071.58,"text":"立即出面說明查明白"},{"start":2071.58,"end":2073.58,"text":"給人民一個交代"},{"start":2073.58,"end":2074.58,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2075.98,"end":2077.98,"text":"好謝謝陳召治委員的說明"},{"start":2077.98,"end":2079.98,"text":"那本席在這邊啊"},{"start":2079.98,"end":2082.98,"text":"身為主席我也要這個譴責監察院"},{"start":2082.98,"end":2083.98,"text":"我在"},{"start":2084.85,"end":2086.85,"text":"這上個禮拜就已經也排定了"},{"start":2086.85,"end":2088.85,"text":"這個邀請監察院"},{"start":2088.85,"end":2091.85,"text":"要來針對現職公職人員的利益衝突"},{"start":2093.07,"end":2095.07,"text":"回避以及離職公務員"},{"start":2095.07,"end":2098.07,"text":"旋轉門機制來進行專題報告"},{"start":2098.07,"end":2100.07,"text":"那麼一直到昨天下午"},{"start":2100.07,"end":2103.07,"text":"我一直還是要求監察院的"},{"start":2103.07,"end":2105.07,"text":"秘書長副秘書長"},{"start":2105.07,"end":2107.07,"text":"甚至就是監察預調"},{"start":2107.07,"end":2110.07,"text":"派員來進行專案報告說明"},{"start":2110.07,"end":2112.07,"text":"但是他們沒有提交"},{"start":2112.07,"end":2114.07,"text":"任何一份書面報告"},{"start":2114.07,"end":2117.07,"text":"那麼甚至呢也拒絕派員來"},{"start":2117.07,"end":2119.07,"text":"這個立法院思委會這裡"},{"start":2119.07,"end":2120.07,"text":"接受備詢啊"},{"start":2120.07,"end":2122.07,"text":"這是非常惡劣"},{"start":2122.07,"end":2123.07,"text":"惡質的行為"},{"start":2123.07,"end":2124.07,"text":"在過去"},{"start":2125.71,"end":2129.71,"text":"思委會這裡辦了很多次的不同的報告"},{"start":2129.71,"end":2131.71,"text":"即便是他跟法案跟預算案"},{"start":2131.71,"end":2133.71,"text":"不見得有直接相關"},{"start":2133.71,"end":2135.71,"text":"但是監察院的秘書長"},{"start":2135.71,"end":2138.71,"text":"或是副秘書長都會來練習"},{"start":2138.71,"end":2141.71,"text":"做報告以及接受備詢"},{"start":2141.71,"end":2143.71,"text":"所以呢在這一次這個監察院"},{"start":2143.71,"end":2147.71,"text":"他迴避有關於跟公職人員利益衝突"},{"start":2147.71,"end":2150.71,"text":"這個相關的專題報告"},{"start":2150.71,"end":2152.71,"text":"這個是非常失職"},{"start":2152.71,"end":2156.71,"text":"而且就迴避國會監督的一個行為"},{"start":2156.71,"end":2158.71,"text":"我們知道財產申報"},{"start":2158.71,"end":2161.71,"text":"是屬於監察院"},{"start":2161.71,"end":2163.71,"text":"他是負責執行的單位"},{"start":2163.71,"end":2166.71,"text":"那麼看起來就是說現在監察院"},{"start":2166.71,"end":2168.71,"text":"他完全就不理會"},{"start":2168.71,"end":2171.71,"text":"立法院思委會這裡所做的要求"},{"start":2171.71,"end":2173.71,"text":"所以我在這邊也賦予"},{"start":2173.71,"end":2177.71,"text":"這個陳委員這裡所做的譴責案"},{"start":2177.71,"end":2178.71,"text":"那來請"},{"start":2178.71,"end":2179.71,"text":"好"},{"start":2179.71,"end":2182.71,"text":"那所以針對譴責案的部分"},{"start":2182.71,"end":2183.71,"text":"我在這裡想請教大家"},{"start":2183.71,"end":2184.71,"text":"我們是不是現在"},{"start":2184.71,"end":2186.71,"text":"我們就先處理這個譴責案"},{"start":2188.75,"end":2190.75,"text":"好那如果同意的話"},{"start":2190.75,"end":2192.75,"text":"那先請宣讀譴責案"},{"start":2193.48,"end":2195.48,"text":"臨時提案一案有"},{"start":2195.48,"end":2198.48,"text":"有鑑於立法院司法及法治委員會"},{"start":2198.48,"end":2200.48,"text":"排定專題報告"},{"start":2200.48,"end":2204.48,"text":"邀請監察院國家發展委員會經濟部等機關"},{"start":2204.48,"end":2206.48,"text":"就國發基金及政府補助不當"},{"start":2206.48,"end":2208.48,"text":"挹注蘇巧淳"},{"start":2208.48,"end":2212.48,"text":"相關公司之爭議提出報告與監討"},{"start":2212.48,"end":2214.48,"text":"為監察院敬畏提出書面報告"},{"start":2214.48,"end":2216.48,"text":"議會派員列席說明"},{"start":2216.48,"end":2218.48,"text":"公然規避國會監督"},{"start":2218.48,"end":2220.48,"text":"願見請本委員"},{"start":2221.03,"end":2223.03,"text":"會作成以下決議"},{"start":2223.03,"end":2226.03,"text":"嚴正譴責監察院藐視國會"},{"start":2226.03,"end":2228.03,"text":"待呼職責之行為"},{"start":2228.03,"end":2230.03,"text":"並要求監察院現期提出"},{"start":2230.03,"end":2233.03,"text":"完整書面報告及派員列席說明"},{"start":2233.03,"end":2236.03,"text":"一本委員會嚴正譴責"},{"start":2236.03,"end":2238.03,"text":"監察院拒絕提出書面報告"},{"start":2238.03,"end":2240.03,"text":"為派員列席"},{"start":2240.03,"end":2243.03,"text":"以及規避國會監督之行為"},{"start":2243.03,"end":2245.03,"text":"並將本提案決議及監察院"},{"start":2245.03,"end":2247.03,"text":"缺席情形列入委員會公報"},{"start":2247.03,"end":2248.03,"text":"二"},{"start":2248.03,"end":2250.03,"text":"要求監察院與本提案"},{"start":2250.03,"end":2252.03,"text":"通過後二週內向立法院"},{"start":2252.03,"end":2254.03,"text":"司法及法治委員會提出"},{"start":2254.03,"end":2257.03,"text":"完整書面報告說明下列事項"},{"start":2257.03,"end":2260.03,"text":"一是否受理成或立案調查本案"},{"start":2260.03,"end":2263.03,"text":"如未立案因具體說明理由及法律依據"},{"start":2263.03,"end":2265.03,"text":"二礦事智能"},{"start":2265.03,"end":2267.03,"text":"微如科技及相關公司取得國發"},{"start":2267.03,"end":2270.03,"text":"基金投資與政府補助之調查情形"},{"start":2270.03,"end":2272.03,"text":"三相關人員是否違反"},{"start":2272.03,"end":2274.03,"text":"涉及違反公職員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":2274.03,"end":2276.03,"text":"或其他法令"},{"start":2276.03,"end":2278.03,"text":"案件目前辦理進度"},{"start":2278.03,"end":2280.03,"text":"預定完成期限及後續"},{"start":2280.03,"end":2281.03,"text":"究責"},{"start":2281.45,"end":2282.45,"text":"措施"},{"start":2283.02,"end":2285.02,"text":"提案人委員陳昭姿"},{"start":2285.02,"end":2286.02,"text":"邱慧如"},{"start":2286.02,"end":2287.02,"text":"連署人"},{"start":2287.02,"end":2288.02,"text":"林佩祥"},{"start":2288.02,"end":2289.02,"text":"徐宇珍"},{"start":2289.02,"end":2290.02,"text":"劉淑冰"},{"start":2290.02,"end":2291.02,"text":"林倩琪"},{"start":2291.02,"end":2292.02,"text":"翁曉琳"},{"start":2292.02,"end":2293.02,"text":"蔡春綢"},{"start":2293.02,"end":2294.02,"text":"陳慶龍"},{"start":2294.02,"end":2295.02,"text":"宣端壁"},{"start":2294.34,"end":2297.34,"text":"請問這場委員針對剛剛的譴責案有沒有異議"},{"start":2298.81,"end":2301.81,"text":"好沒有的話那我們就全部通過"},{"start":2302.71,"end":2304.71,"text":"那我可以一起笑"},{"start":2304.71,"end":2305.71,"text":"好我笑"},{"start":2305.71,"end":2306.71,"text":"好"},{"start":2309.31,"end":2310.31,"text":"好"},{"start":2333.49,"end":2334.49,"text":"好"},{"start":2350.74,"end":2351.74,"text":"好"},{"start":2352.47,"end":2353.47,"text":"好"},{"start":2353.54,"end":2356.54,"text":"好因為現在還在持續發言的這個階段"},{"start":2356.54,"end":2358.54,"text":"然後吳宗憲委員也要持續發言"},{"start":2358.54,"end":2361.54,"text":"那就可以在原委這裡先持續發言"},{"start":2362.83,"end":2365.83,"text":"好我們陳姨發言的部分主要也是提到說"},{"start":2365.83,"end":2367.83,"text":"因為監察院"},{"start":2367.83,"end":2371.83,"text":"我們今天因為國發基金的問題請監察院來說明"},{"start":2371.83,"end":2375.83,"text":"那結果監察院他沒有來也沒有做書面的回覆"},{"start":2375.83,"end":2379.83,"text":"那當然就這個部分我們剛剛已經那個通過了譴責案"},{"start":2379.83,"end":2380.83,"text":"那我想說"},{"start":2380.83,"end":2385.83,"text":"這部分我們還是認為說監察院他其實不應該如此的推卸責任"},{"start":2385.83,"end":2387.83,"text":"那當然今天本來是監察院如果有派人來"},{"start":2387.83,"end":2392.83,"text":"另外還要希望監察院能夠協助處理一件事情就是"},{"start":2392.83,"end":2395.83,"text":"就有關這一次自來遊的問題"},{"start":2395.83,"end":2399.83,"text":"因為是6月30號通報7月9號才全面下架"},{"start":2399.83,"end":2402.83,"text":"那這九天內決策一改再改"},{"start":2403.3,"end":2405.3,"text":"那我想官員的決策"},{"start":2405.3,"end":2410.3,"text":"如果一錯再錯這本來就是監察院應該主動調查的事項"},{"start":2410.3,"end":2412.3,"text":"所以本來我是希望他們今天如果有人來"},{"start":2412.3,"end":2414.3,"text":"我希望他們把這個東西帶回去"},{"start":2414.3,"end":2417.3,"text":"然後看盡快的立案來調查"},{"start":2417.3,"end":2422.3,"text":"因為我們看到的第一個就是他選擇不下架"},{"start":2422.3,"end":2426.3,"text":"然後除了下架第一層之外"},{"start":2426.3,"end":2428.3,"text":"他第二層之後的遊品不下架"},{"start":2428.3,"end":2431.3,"text":"然後7月3號院長還是說還要再考慮"},{"start":2431.3,"end":2434.3,"text":"那這段時間其實這些有問題的遊品"},{"start":2434.3,"end":2436.3,"text":"他一直不停的流入市面"},{"start":2436.3,"end":2440.3,"text":"那這個部分造成國人的身體的影響"},{"start":2440.3,"end":2443.3,"text":"那這個部分政府的決策是不是有問題"},{"start":2443.3,"end":2445.3,"text":"監察院本來就應該要主動介入調查"},{"start":2445.3,"end":2449.3,"text":"那第二個就是他選擇不公布廠商的名單"},{"start":2449.3,"end":2452.3,"text":"他說這些廠商也是受害者"},{"start":2452.3,"end":2456.3,"text":"那這個是不是也是侵害到人民資的權利"},{"start":2456.3,"end":2460.3,"text":"那食安法第四條跟第五條他說的很清楚"},{"start":2460.3,"end":2462.3,"text":"他要求主管機關要公布檢驗結果"},{"start":2462.3,"end":2464.3,"text":"以及揭露相關的資訊"},{"start":2464.3,"end":2466.3,"text":"這是法定義務耶"},{"start":2466.3,"end":2470.3,"text":"這不是行政機關可以自己愛做不做"},{"start":2470.3,"end":2472.3,"text":"所以這個部分監察院也要調查"},{"start":2472.3,"end":2475.3,"text":"第三個20%的這個標準"},{"start":2475.86,"end":2477.86,"text":"什麼時候有所謂的致癌物質"},{"start":2477.86,"end":2480.86,"text":"還有這個20%的這個可容許的標準"},{"start":2480.86,"end":2481.86,"text":"因為依照"},{"start":2482.75,"end":2484.75,"text":"正常的做法"},{"start":2485.72,"end":2486.72,"text":"致癌物質"},{"start":2486.72,"end":2489.72,"text":"國際的標準就是儘量減少暴露"},{"start":2490.39,"end":2491.39,"text":"他只有這個標準啊"},{"start":2491.39,"end":2493.39,"text":"他沒有所謂的我看20"},{"start":2493.39,"end":2495.39,"text":"使用超過20才要下架"},{"start":2495.39,"end":2497.39,"text":"沒有超過20就不要下架"},{"start":2497.39,"end":2500.39,"text":"那我一直找不到相關的依據嘛"},{"start":2500.39,"end":2502.39,"text":"因為我自己專業除了法律之外"},{"start":2502.39,"end":2504.39,"text":"我還是念公共衛生啊"},{"start":2504.39,"end":2506.39,"text":"我還是到目前還是找不到依據"},{"start":2506.39,"end":2507.39,"text":"那我們也問行政機關了"},{"start":2507.39,"end":2509.39,"text":"請問20%的標準"},{"start":2510.2,"end":2512.2,"text":"依據數據"},{"start":2512.21,"end":2513.21,"text":"學術"},{"start":2513.85,"end":2514.85,"text":"他的依據是什麼"},{"start":2515.52,"end":2517.52,"text":"他有沒有任何期刊論文可以當他的"},{"start":2518.88,"end":2519.88,"text":"證據的標準"},{"start":2520.72,"end":2522.72,"text":"目前行政機關都沒有給我啊"},{"start":2522.72,"end":2525.72,"text":"所以那這20%請問部長是你幻想出來的嗎"},{"start":2525.72,"end":2528.72,"text":"好所以這部分是不是監察院也要調查"},{"start":2528.72,"end":2529.72,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2529.72,"end":2531.72,"text":"我們待會就直接進行巡邏好不好"},{"start":2531.72,"end":2533.72,"text":"對那麼這個因為今天"},{"start":2533.72,"end":2535.72,"text":"待會我們衛福部部長"},{"start":2535.72,"end":2537.72,"text":"他9點半之後就要離開"},{"start":2537.72,"end":2539.72,"text":"所以我想就是大家應該有些委員"},{"start":2539.72,"end":2542.72,"text":"想要直接跟他面對面的質詢"},{"start":2542.72,"end":2545.72,"text":"所以我們會加快今天的報告時間"},{"start":2545.72,"end":2548.72,"text":"也麻煩大家待會部長們可能就是"},{"start":2548.72,"end":2550.72,"text":"兩分鐘之內就完成你們今天的說明"},{"start":2550.72,"end":2551.72,"text":"麻煩"},{"start":2551.72,"end":2553.72,"text":"然後還有就是我要再次重申"},{"start":2555.46,"end":2560.46,"text":"我沒有同意監察院秘書長跟副秘書長請假"},{"start":2560.46,"end":2562.46,"text":"我再次強調"},{"start":2562.46,"end":2564.46,"text":"一直我聯絡到昨天下午"},{"start":2564.46,"end":2569.46,"text":"我還一直要求說他們沒有理由拒絕不參加"},{"start":2569.46,"end":2571.46,"text":"今天的思委會的報告"},{"start":2571.46,"end":2573.46,"text":"所以今天提出譴責案"},{"start":2573.46,"end":2575.46,"text":"我認為是非常正當的"},{"start":2575.46,"end":2578.46,"text":"我們要讓監察院知道完全不可以向"},{"start":2578.46,"end":2580.46,"text":"藐視立法院"},{"start":2580.46,"end":2581.46,"text":"好那麼接下來"},{"start":2581.46,"end":2584.46,"text":"我們就先進行機關的報告"},{"start":2584.46,"end":2587.46,"text":"每位發言時間以兩分鐘為限"},{"start":2587.46,"end":2592.46,"text":"我們首先先請衛福部的時蟲糧食部長報告"},{"start":2599.98,"end":2602.98,"text":"主席還有各位委員女士先生"},{"start":2602.98,"end":2604.98,"text":"那麼今天代表衛福部"},{"start":2604.98,"end":2608.98,"text":"就中聯的致癌有品的事件"},{"start":2608.98,"end":2613.98,"text":"目前的一些進度來做以下的專題的報告"},{"start":2613.98,"end":2618.98,"text":"那麼本案中聯的大豆沙拉油的本扁皮鈔票事件"},{"start":2618.98,"end":2622.98,"text":"那麼我們秉持著風險的及時掌握資訊公開"},{"start":2622.98,"end":2625.98,"text":"跟依法行政三個原則來辦理"},{"start":2625.98,"end":2628.98,"text":"那麼目前呢4到6月"},{"start":2628.98,"end":2631.98,"text":"那麼一共經過全面性的檢驗"},{"start":2631.98,"end":2636.98,"text":"有7批的大豆沙拉油驗出有超標的情形"},{"start":2636.98,"end":2637.98,"text":"那麼"},{"start":2639.42,"end":2642.42,"text":"一共那麼已經下架回收"},{"start":2642.42,"end":2645.42,"text":"那麼封存了2794噸"},{"start":2645.42,"end":2647.42,"text":"那麼此外呢"},{"start":2647.42,"end":2652.42,"text":"那麼其餘的這個我們都已經完成檢驗"},{"start":2652.42,"end":2656.42,"text":"那麼一共有19批的這個上游的原油"},{"start":2656.42,"end":2658.42,"text":"以及下游的產品呢"},{"start":2658.42,"end":2660.42,"text":"那麼都符合標準"},{"start":2660.42,"end":2662.42,"text":"那麼重新公告"},{"start":2662.42,"end":2663.42,"text":"那麼可以上架"},{"start":2663.42,"end":2667.42,"text":"那麼也公布在食藥署的中聯油脂案的專區"},{"start":2667.42,"end":2670.42,"text":"那麼持續的公開跟更新"},{"start":2670.42,"end":2671.42,"text":"那麼此外呢"},{"start":2671.42,"end":2674.42,"text":"在這個檢方偵辦的部分"},{"start":2674.42,"end":2680.42,"text":"我想待會這個法務部政部長會再做詳細的報告"},{"start":2680.42,"end":2682.42,"text":"那不過我們在7月17號呢"},{"start":2682.42,"end":2685.42,"text":"也根據我們的調查"},{"start":2685.42,"end":2688.42,"text":"那麼中聯有產品的違規"},{"start":2688.42,"end":2690.42,"text":"還有隱匿跟申報不實"},{"start":2690.42,"end":2695.42,"text":"所以我們已經處以1億7120萬元的罰款"},{"start":2695.42,"end":2698.42,"text":"那麼其餘的延遲通報的業者"},{"start":2698.42,"end":2701.42,"text":"也由地方衛生局依法已經裁處了"},{"start":2701.42,"end":2703.42,"text":"那麼後續呢"},{"start":2703.42,"end":2705.42,"text":"對於消費者的權益"},{"start":2705.42,"end":2706.42,"text":"那麼已經要求"},{"start":2706.42,"end":2709.42,"text":"那麼業者對於這個消費者權益"},{"start":2709.42,"end":2712.42,"text":"要妥適的處理重寬重優重塑"},{"start":2712.42,"end":2715.42,"text":"重減來辦理退貨以及賠償"},{"start":2715.42,"end":2719.42,"text":"那麼另外在行政院的消保處"},{"start":2719.42,"end":2724.42,"text":"也會協助這個消保團體來提起團體訴訟"},{"start":2724.42,"end":2729.42,"text":"相關的費用那麼可以由食品安全保護基金來支應"},{"start":2729.42,"end":2731.42,"text":"另外在制度改革的部分"},{"start":2731.42,"end":2735.42,"text":"我們已經也擬去了這個食品安全衛生法的修法"},{"start":2735.42,"end":2738.42,"text":"那麼今天會在院會行政院會報告之後"},{"start":2738.42,"end":2741.42,"text":"來送交大院來審查"},{"start":2741.42,"end":2744.42,"text":"那麼從10個方向那麼來做精進"},{"start":2744.42,"end":2748.42,"text":"那麼屆時再請各位委員予以支持"},{"start":2748.42,"end":2750.42,"text":"那麼以上說簡短的報告"},{"start":2750.42,"end":2752.42,"text":"在此感謝各位委員的指導"},{"start":2752.42,"end":2753.42,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2754.67,"end":2756.67,"text":"好 謝謝師部長報告"},{"start":2756.67,"end":2759.67,"text":"那麼其餘的提出數面報告機關"},{"start":2759.67,"end":2760.67,"text":"有沒有口頭補充"},{"start":2760.67,"end":2763.67,"text":"因為我們今天想要掌握更多的這個巡達時間"},{"start":2764.8,"end":2767.8,"text":"沒有的話我們就機關代表我們就報告完畢"},{"start":2767.8,"end":2770.8,"text":"相關數面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2770.8,"end":2773.8,"text":"我們現在就先開始進行巡達"},{"start":2773.8,"end":2775.8,"text":"那本會委員巡達時間為8分鐘"},{"start":2775.8,"end":2776.8,"text":"必要時候2分鐘"},{"start":2778.48,"end":2780.48,"text":"必要時得延長2分鐘"},{"start":2780.48,"end":2783.48,"text":"非本會委員巡達的時間為5分鐘並不再延長"},{"start":2783.48,"end":2785.48,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2785.48,"end":2788.48,"text":"我們就先請登記第一位的吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":2791.78,"end":2792.78,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2792.78,"end":2794.78,"text":"我們麻煩衛福部長"},{"start":2796,"end":2797,"text":"麻煩部長"},{"start":2799.76,"end":2800.76,"text":"好"},{"start":2802.14,"end":2804.14,"text":"好 部長我先跟您提到"},{"start":2804.14,"end":2805.14,"text":"委員長"},{"start":2805.14,"end":2807.14,"text":"就是2014"},{"start":2807.14,"end":2809.14,"text":"以前的那個2014那個問題"},{"start":2809.14,"end":2812.14,"text":"其實2014鼎鑫的那個案子"},{"start":2812.14,"end":2815.14,"text":"其實我們當時從案子我們學到一個概念就是說"},{"start":2815.96,"end":2817.96,"text":"他一審都判無罪"},{"start":2817.96,"end":2821.96,"text":"所以當時其實輿論還一直罵檢方說"},{"start":2821.96,"end":2824.96,"text":"你們胡亂起訴你們濫行起訴"},{"start":2824.96,"end":2829.96,"text":"還好是後來檢方他有再去找到新的證據來補強"},{"start":2829.96,"end":2833.96,"text":"補強說他有那個購入的那個原料的油"},{"start":2833.96,"end":2836.96,"text":"他的酸價過高還有重金屬含量不符標準"},{"start":2836.96,"end":2840.96,"text":"否則這個案子當時就會一路無罪到確定了"},{"start":2840.96,"end":2843.96,"text":"也就是說今天如果說我們相關的市政"},{"start":2843.96,"end":2845.96,"text":"如果沒有辦法準備齊全"},{"start":2845.96,"end":2849.96,"text":"或者是那個我們扣留的證據沒有辦法有證據能力的話"},{"start":2849.96,"end":2851.96,"text":"以後會完全影響到整個案子"},{"start":2851.96,"end":2854.96,"text":"變成說你到時候大家都把壞的油吃到肚子裡"},{"start":2854.96,"end":2855.96,"text":"但是業者都會判無罪"},{"start":2855.96,"end":2857.96,"text":"所以今天這個教訓是什麼"},{"start":2857.96,"end":2859.96,"text":"就是食安犯罪的成敗"},{"start":2859.96,"end":2861.96,"text":"不是法庭上面就決定了"},{"start":2861.96,"end":2864.96,"text":"而是第一個時間你有沒有證據保全"},{"start":2864.96,"end":2867.96,"text":"你的稽查的紀錄有沒有留存"},{"start":2867.96,"end":2868.96,"text":"這個是重點"},{"start":2868.96,"end":2873.96,"text":"那今天我們發生了這個中聯的自來油的案件"},{"start":2873.96,"end":2874.96,"text":"我就會擔心這個部分"},{"start":2874.96,"end":2878.96,"text":"所以我今天才會跟那個衛福部請你來"},{"start":2878.96,"end":2879.96,"text":"當然法務部今天有來"},{"start":2879.96,"end":2882.96,"text":"那法務部這邊我可能知道就好"},{"start":2882.96,"end":2884.96,"text":"我現在主要還是跟衛福部來做溝通"},{"start":2884.96,"end":2887.96,"text":"因為你們這一次的書面報告寫得很漂亮說"},{"start":2887.96,"end":2888.96,"text":"要公開透明"},{"start":2888.96,"end":2890.96,"text":"及時風險溝通"},{"start":2890.96,"end":2891.96,"text":"逐批查驗"},{"start":2891.96,"end":2893.96,"text":"但是這個東西"},{"start":2895.26,"end":2896.26,"text":"這三個問題"},{"start":2896.26,"end":2900.26,"text":"全部都跟到底有沒有留下證據有關係"},{"start":2900.26,"end":2902.26,"text":"也就是說有沒有留下紀錄"},{"start":2902.26,"end":2903.26,"text":"有沒有留下證據"},{"start":2903.26,"end":2906.26,"text":"事後人有沒有辦法篡改"},{"start":2906.26,"end":2908.26,"text":"有沒有辦法讓他們賴都賴不掉"},{"start":2908.26,"end":2911.26,"text":"這個才是行政機關要做到的"},{"start":2911.26,"end":2915.26,"text":"因為這些資料都是將來我們要給法庭的證據"},{"start":2915.26,"end":2919.26,"text":"所以到底我們今天的流樣制度會不會形同虛設"},{"start":2919.26,"end":2921.26,"text":"因為你自己的報告也有提到"},{"start":2921.26,"end":2924.26,"text":"7月21號食藥署風險"},{"start":2924.26,"end":2928.26,"text":"那個知義會處理的批次裡面"},{"start":2928.26,"end":2930.26,"text":"有一批沒有檢體"},{"start":2930.26,"end":2933.26,"text":"也就是說你今天樣本都留不住了對不對"},{"start":2933.26,"end":2935.26,"text":"這就一個很大的問題"},{"start":2935.26,"end":2938.26,"text":"等於我們流樣制度有一個好大的缺口"},{"start":2938.26,"end":2940.26,"text":"竟然有東西我們連樣本都沒有"},{"start":2940.26,"end":2941.26,"text":"證據都沒有"},{"start":2941.26,"end":2945.26,"text":"有這種東西就算底下釋出很大的問題"},{"start":2945.26,"end":2947.26,"text":"到法庭法官也判不下去"},{"start":2947.26,"end":2949.26,"text":"所以您之前你受訪的時候有說"},{"start":2949.26,"end":2950.26,"text":"29批樣本"},{"start":2951.26,"end":2954.26,"text":"送第三方實驗室有驗出來幾乎合格"},{"start":2954.26,"end":2959.26,"text":"但是下游廠商的產品卻驗出粉便比超標"},{"start":2959.26,"end":2961.26,"text":"對不對這個沒錯吧"},{"start":2961.26,"end":2964.26,"text":"我簡單的跟委員說明"},{"start":2964.26,"end":2967.26,"text":"確實這個證據的保全是非常重要"},{"start":2967.26,"end":2969.26,"text":"您指示的方向是"},{"start":2969.26,"end":2971.26,"text":"我們完全是按照這樣做"},{"start":2971.82,"end":2975.82,"text":"在中聯油廠裡面它需要有樣本"},{"start":2975.82,"end":2978.82,"text":"所以它30個批次的樣本都有"},{"start":2978.82,"end":2982.82,"text":"只是檢驗出來的結果都符合"},{"start":2982.82,"end":2986.82,"text":"但是下游的產品檢出有超標"},{"start":2986.82,"end":2989.82,"text":"所以表示這個樣本有問題"},{"start":2989.82,"end":2992.82,"text":"所以剛剛你提到有一個沒有檢體"},{"start":2992.82,"end":2993.82,"text":"指的是第二層"},{"start":2993.82,"end":2994.82,"text":"所以你是不是有說"},{"start":2994.82,"end":2998.82,"text":"不排除檢體召調換或造假"},{"start":2998.82,"end":3000.82,"text":"你有對外這樣講對不對"},{"start":3000.82,"end":3002.82,"text":"部長這個代表什麼"},{"start":3002.82,"end":3004.82,"text":"就代表你們在管理的機制裡面"},{"start":3004.82,"end":3007.82,"text":"業者自己留樣自己送驗"},{"start":3007.82,"end":3010.82,"text":"行政機關沒有獨立的留樣"},{"start":3010.82,"end":3011.82,"text":"沒有平行的採樣"},{"start":3011.82,"end":3014.82,"text":"也就是說你沒有留下一份證據"},{"start":3014.82,"end":3016.82,"text":"你沒有自己留一份"},{"start":3016.82,"end":3017.82,"text":"你也沒有自己採一份"},{"start":3017.82,"end":3019.82,"text":"那這樣子的制度變成是"},{"start":3019.82,"end":3021.82,"text":"業者你自己驗自己留自己驗"},{"start":3021.82,"end":3022.82,"text":"驗完數據給我"},{"start":3022.82,"end":3025.82,"text":"那我變成只有幫你背書的份而已"},{"start":3025.82,"end":3027.82,"text":"我完全沒有積和"},{"start":3027.82,"end":3028.82,"text":"我也沒有留任何東西"},{"start":3028.82,"end":3030.82,"text":"這就是我目前覺得"},{"start":3030.82,"end":3032.82,"text":"那等於有管跟沒有管一樣"},{"start":3032.82,"end":3035.82,"text":"好那我要再跟部長說一下"},{"start":3035.82,"end":3038.82,"text":"我們立法院的預算中心有說到"},{"start":3038.82,"end":3041.82,"text":"食安預算從109年的56.34億"},{"start":3041.82,"end":3045.82,"text":"成長到113年的106.95億"},{"start":3045.82,"end":3047.82,"text":"漲幅快九成"},{"start":3049.39,"end":3052.39,"text":"後來我們的卓榮泰院長也說了"},{"start":3052.39,"end":3058.39,"text":"114年食安整體的預算編列到109.8億"},{"start":3058.39,"end":3063.39,"text":"然後後來又說多了一個食安新計畫"},{"start":3063.39,"end":3064.39,"text":"多了18.5億"},{"start":3064.39,"end":3066.39,"text":"我想這個部長一定非常熟"},{"start":3066.39,"end":3067.39,"text":"我就不再多論述"},{"start":3067.39,"end":3069.39,"text":"也就是說我們這幾年"},{"start":3069.39,"end":3072.39,"text":"已經花了好幾百億在食安上面"},{"start":3072.39,"end":3074.39,"text":"但是我們現在連家庭的油都出問題"},{"start":3074.39,"end":3077.39,"text":"這個是我覺得我們國家花那麼多錢"},{"start":3077.39,"end":3079.39,"text":"但是我們得不到好的效果"},{"start":3079.39,"end":3082.39,"text":"我想這個也是民眾心裡打的一個問號"},{"start":3083.41,"end":3084.41,"text":"現在的問題啊"},{"start":3084.41,"end":3086.41,"text":"在這一次中聯油案爆發之前"},{"start":3086.41,"end":3088.41,"text":"這些廠商的留痕"},{"start":3088.41,"end":3091.41,"text":"留下證據留痕的這個機制"},{"start":3091.41,"end":3093.41,"text":"完全都不存在嗎"},{"start":3093.41,"end":3094.41,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":3094.41,"end":3098.41,"text":"所以在食安的三級品管當中"},{"start":3098.41,"end":3099.41,"text":"還有第三級"},{"start":3099.41,"end":3103.41,"text":"就是地方衛生局叫進行實地的查場"},{"start":3103.41,"end":3105.41,"text":"也具有抽樣"},{"start":3105.41,"end":3108.41,"text":"所以除了他自己的樣本要保留"},{"start":3108.41,"end":3110.41,"text":"依法要保留之外"},{"start":3110.41,"end":3112.41,"text":"那麼地方主管機關在稽查的時候"},{"start":3112.41,"end":3113.41,"text":"也可以抽樣"},{"start":3113.41,"end":3117.41,"text":"所以有幾個衛生局他的抽樣很頻繁"},{"start":3117.41,"end":3119.41,"text":"也是應與這樣的法律授權去執行"},{"start":3119.41,"end":3123.41,"text":"他們抽樣是對於廠商留存的樣本抽樣"},{"start":3123.41,"end":3127.41,"text":"還是直接到地點去抽樣"},{"start":3127.41,"end":3129.41,"text":"因為你們這一次"},{"start":3129.41,"end":3131.41,"text":"我要先講一件事情就是說"},{"start":3131.41,"end":3134.41,"text":"因為你們這一次有提到的所謂的"},{"start":3134.41,"end":3137.41,"text":"什麼修法啦十大方向等等"},{"start":3137.41,"end":3138.41,"text":"但我要跟你們講"},{"start":3138.41,"end":3140.41,"text":"其實我們一直到現在"},{"start":3140.41,"end":3142.41,"text":"我們不是沒有法律"},{"start":3142.41,"end":3144.41,"text":"你們一直說要修法修法"},{"start":3144.41,"end":3146.41,"text":"因為我到立法院來我才有一個感覺"},{"start":3146.41,"end":3148.41,"text":"行政機關每次事情沒有做好"},{"start":3148.41,"end":3150.41,"text":"他就說我們要修法"},{"start":3150.41,"end":3152.41,"text":"但是很多時候法律早就有啦"},{"start":3152.41,"end":3155.41,"text":"行政機關推責任的另外一個推法"},{"start":3155.41,"end":3156.41,"text":"就是推給立法院"},{"start":3156.41,"end":3159.41,"text":"我跟你說像我們食安法第七條"},{"start":3159.41,"end":3162.41,"text":"就有要求業者發現有危害之虞"},{"start":3162.41,"end":3163.41,"text":"就要急通報"},{"start":3163.41,"end":3166.41,"text":"第九條他有要求有職業者"},{"start":3166.41,"end":3169.41,"text":"建立追溯追蹤系統電子申報流向"},{"start":3169.41,"end":3170.41,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3170.41,"end":3172.41,"text":"那中聯他就是這個第九條的"},{"start":3172.41,"end":3175.41,"text":"這個使用有職的業者嘛"},{"start":3175.41,"end":3178.41,"text":"所以很多時候我們目前行政機關"},{"start":3178.41,"end":3179.41,"text":"行政的作為"},{"start":3179.41,"end":3181.41,"text":"不是沒有法律依據"},{"start":3181.41,"end":3184.41,"text":"而是業者他會繞過法律依據"},{"start":3184.41,"end":3185.41,"text":"去騙你們對不對"},{"start":3185.41,"end":3186.41,"text":"我沒有說你們錯"},{"start":3186.41,"end":3187.41,"text":"他會騙你們"},{"start":3187.41,"end":3190.41,"text":"所以不是沒有法律"},{"start":3190.41,"end":3192.41,"text":"而是執行上面有漏洞讓他們鑽"},{"start":3192.41,"end":3194.41,"text":"所以這個不是修法的問題"},{"start":3194.41,"end":3197.41,"text":"常常是行政機關行政的問題"},{"start":3197.41,"end":3199.41,"text":"我這邊先跟部長說"},{"start":3199.41,"end":3201.41,"text":"我是不是可以跟委員說明"},{"start":3201.41,"end":3203.41,"text":"因為這個通報"},{"start":3203.41,"end":3204.41,"text":"您這邊寫得很對"},{"start":3204.41,"end":3208.41,"text":"他這個一直隱匿而且延遲通報"},{"start":3208.41,"end":3210.41,"text":"所以一方面我們要把通報的"},{"start":3210.41,"end":3213.41,"text":"延遲的代價提高"},{"start":3213.41,"end":3215.41,"text":"所以他的罰款要增加"},{"start":3215.41,"end":3216.41,"text":"之外"},{"start":3216.9,"end":3220.9,"text":"也要賦予檢驗的單位的通報"},{"start":3220.9,"end":3222.9,"text":"因為其實他這個檢驗是在外送"},{"start":3222.9,"end":3224.9,"text":"但是這些制度早就都有了"},{"start":3224.9,"end":3225.9,"text":"法律都有了"},{"start":3225.9,"end":3228.9,"text":"過去的通報的責任只限制在業者"},{"start":3228.9,"end":3229.9,"text":"法律都有了"},{"start":3229.9,"end":3232.9,"text":"你說要提高罰則我沒意見"},{"start":3232.9,"end":3234.9,"text":"但是很多東西你說該做的"},{"start":3234.9,"end":3237.9,"text":"要修法要做的法律早就都有了"},{"start":3237.9,"end":3238.9,"text":"我們希望讓他"},{"start":3238.9,"end":3240.9,"text":"我跟你講行政機關不能"},{"start":3240.9,"end":3241.9,"text":"責任都往外推"},{"start":3241.9,"end":3242.9,"text":"要嘛中央"},{"start":3242.9,"end":3245.9,"text":"這次我看到了中央就推給地方"},{"start":3245.9,"end":3247.9,"text":"食安的問題中央推給地方"},{"start":3247.9,"end":3249.9,"text":"然後我們有意見之後"},{"start":3249.9,"end":3250.9,"text":"又推給立法院"},{"start":3250.9,"end":3251.9,"text":"原來我們立法不足"},{"start":3251.9,"end":3253.9,"text":"事實上我剛已經告訴你了"},{"start":3253.9,"end":3255.9,"text":"我們的法律早就有了"},{"start":3255.9,"end":3256.9,"text":"是你們沒有做好"},{"start":3257.85,"end":3259.85,"text":"然後你現在就推說"},{"start":3259.85,"end":3261.85,"text":"法律不足我現在要推修法"},{"start":3261.85,"end":3264.85,"text":"你修來修去他還是早就有那個法律在"},{"start":3264.85,"end":3266.85,"text":"所以我看到的是"},{"start":3266.85,"end":3267.85,"text":"被人家發現問題以後"},{"start":3267.85,"end":3269.85,"text":"中央推地方機關"},{"start":3269.85,"end":3271.85,"text":"不然就行政院推立法院"},{"start":3271.85,"end":3275.85,"text":"這樣不是一個負責任政府該有的樣子"},{"start":3275.85,"end":3276.85,"text":"那我請問一下"},{"start":3276.85,"end":3278.85,"text":"這一次你們十大修正的重點裡面"},{"start":3278.85,"end":3280.85,"text":"有沒有要求業者"},{"start":3280.85,"end":3283.85,"text":"及時上傳自主檢驗的資料"},{"start":3283.85,"end":3285.85,"text":"還是那個"},{"start":3285.85,"end":3288.85,"text":"你們有沒有要求他們這個部分"},{"start":3288.85,"end":3290.85,"text":"我們要求的是檢驗室"},{"start":3290.85,"end":3291.85,"text":"不要再透過業者"},{"start":3291.85,"end":3293.85,"text":"所以檢驗室就要上傳"},{"start":3293.85,"end":3294.85,"text":"來我請問一下"},{"start":3294.85,"end":3296.85,"text":"你們這一次修法的部分"},{"start":3296.85,"end":3297.85,"text":"有沒有提到"},{"start":3297.85,"end":3299.85,"text":"由行政機關獨立採樣或全程監督"},{"start":3299.85,"end":3300.85,"text":"有沒有提到這個部分"},{"start":3300.85,"end":3302.85,"text":"這一次也把它修進去"},{"start":3302.85,"end":3303.85,"text":"那是在哪一條"},{"start":3303.85,"end":3304.85,"text":"過去是得"},{"start":3304.85,"end":3306.85,"text":"本來在41條"},{"start":3306.85,"end":3309.85,"text":"地方主管機關就可以得執行"},{"start":3309.85,"end":3311.85,"text":"查場跟抽驗"},{"start":3311.85,"end":3313.85,"text":"那這一次我們會把它改成因"},{"start":3313.85,"end":3314.85,"text":"那以後一定要這樣做"},{"start":3314.85,"end":3317.85,"text":"好 你們有把這個地方補"},{"start":3317.85,"end":3318.85,"text":"補這個地方是不是"},{"start":3318.85,"end":3321.85,"text":"好 那因為我要跟你們講的就是說"},{"start":3321.85,"end":3324.85,"text":"我們現在看到的你們的作為"},{"start":3324.85,"end":3327.85,"text":"會讓業者會找一個洞來鑽"},{"start":3327.85,"end":3330.85,"text":"結果我們相關的行政處罰"},{"start":3330.85,"end":3333.85,"text":"都只有去處罰到可能偷懶的人"},{"start":3333.85,"end":3335.85,"text":"但是造假的你們都束手無策"},{"start":3335.85,"end":3337.85,"text":"我這次看到的是這樣"},{"start":3337.85,"end":3338.85,"text":"然後你只是告訴我們說"},{"start":3338.85,"end":3341.85,"text":"不排除中聯他們掉包樣品"},{"start":3341.85,"end":3344.85,"text":"但是你們卻對於這個有沒有掉包"},{"start":3344.85,"end":3346.85,"text":"你們卻束手無策"},{"start":3346.85,"end":3347.85,"text":"事實上這個東西"},{"start":3347.85,"end":3351.85,"text":"本來就可以經由你們自己主動介入"},{"start":3351.85,"end":3352.85,"text":"去抽查"},{"start":3352.85,"end":3357.85,"text":"去強制自己留下樣本的方式來解決"},{"start":3357.85,"end":3359.85,"text":"這個本來都可以解決"},{"start":3359.85,"end":3360.85,"text":"不是不能解決"},{"start":3360.85,"end":3363.85,"text":"所以我要講的就是說"},{"start":3363.85,"end":3365.85,"text":"我們其實不是缺乏法律"},{"start":3365.85,"end":3367.85,"text":"我們是缺乏你們怎麼執行"},{"start":3367.85,"end":3369.85,"text":"還有你們證據怎麼保存"},{"start":3369.85,"end":3370.85,"text":"我希望這一次"},{"start":3370.85,"end":3373.85,"text":"不要到最後又變成一審法院判無罪"},{"start":3373.85,"end":3375.85,"text":"因為他認為說證據能力有問題"},{"start":3375.85,"end":3377.85,"text":"或是證據證明力有問題"},{"start":3377.85,"end":3378.85,"text":"那這個都不行"},{"start":3378.85,"end":3381.85,"text":"還有我要講的一個"},{"start":3381.85,"end":3384.85,"text":"你們花了10億去做的那個食品雲"},{"start":3384.85,"end":3385.85,"text":"也有問題"},{"start":3385.85,"end":3387.85,"text":"你這次花了10億去做"},{"start":3387.85,"end":3389.85,"text":"結果2.75萬噸的有流去哪裡"},{"start":3389.85,"end":3392.85,"text":"還是靠公務員一通電話這樣打"},{"start":3392.85,"end":3393.85,"text":"這個也不對"},{"start":3393.85,"end":3395.85,"text":"然後再來報告你們"},{"start":3395.85,"end":3398.85,"text":"裡面你們提到了即時兩個字"},{"start":3398.85,"end":3400.85,"text":"結果我們看到的是"},{"start":3400.85,"end":3402.85,"text":"6月30號通報"},{"start":3402.85,"end":3404.85,"text":"7月20號才委託食品所"},{"start":3404.85,"end":3406.85,"text":"要成立調查小組"},{"start":3406.85,"end":3407.85,"text":"所以所謂的即時"},{"start":3407.85,"end":3408.85,"text":"我也看不到"},{"start":3408.85,"end":3411.85,"text":"三個禮拜我認為這個不叫即時"},{"start":3411.85,"end":3414.85,"text":"所以我還是要跟你們說明一個點"},{"start":3414.85,"end":3417.85,"text":"因為我自己是甲官出身"},{"start":3417.85,"end":3419.85,"text":"但是我後來轉去念公共衛生"},{"start":3419.85,"end":3420.85,"text":"所以相關的"},{"start":3421.4,"end":3422.4,"text":"專業治理"},{"start":3422.82,"end":3424.82,"text":"我想我還是沒有辦法接受你們很多地方"},{"start":3424.82,"end":3426.82,"text":"就像我剛講的"},{"start":3426.82,"end":3429.82,"text":"你們說的那個20%的標準"},{"start":3429.82,"end":3431.82,"text":"我到現在我還找不到"},{"start":3431.82,"end":3432.82,"text":"科學的依據在哪裡"},{"start":3432.82,"end":3433.82,"text":"我問了我很多同學"},{"start":3433.82,"end":3435.82,"text":"我問了我很多老師"},{"start":3435.82,"end":3437.82,"text":"他們都是公衛生專業的"},{"start":3437.82,"end":3438.82,"text":"甚至臨床醫師"},{"start":3438.82,"end":3439.82,"text":"他們也講不出來"},{"start":3439.82,"end":3441.82,"text":"所謂的致癌物質20%以下"},{"start":3441.82,"end":3443.82,"text":"這是可容許範圍"},{"start":3443.82,"end":3446.82,"text":"從來我不知道這個數據是從何來"},{"start":3446.82,"end":3448.82,"text":"一個行政機關這麼專業的機關"},{"start":3448.82,"end":3451.82,"text":"可以這麼做我是覺得不可思議"},{"start":3451.82,"end":3453.82,"text":"因為我跟你講"},{"start":3453.82,"end":3455.82,"text":"跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":3455.82,"end":3457.82,"text":"今天這是我很不高興"},{"start":3457.82,"end":3459.82,"text":"我認為要替人民講話就是"},{"start":3461.04,"end":3463.04,"text":"我爸爸媽媽都80幾歲了"},{"start":3463.04,"end":3465.04,"text":"我小孩兩個多月"},{"start":3465.04,"end":3466.04,"text":"我讓他們吃這種東西"},{"start":3466.04,"end":3468.04,"text":"我一定跟你拼命"},{"start":3468.04,"end":3469.04,"text":"哪一個業者哪有毒的東西"},{"start":3469.04,"end":3471.04,"text":"給我的爸媽吃給我的小孩吃"},{"start":3471.04,"end":3473.04,"text":"我一定跟你拼命"},{"start":3473.04,"end":3474.04,"text":"所以今天這個事情"},{"start":3474.04,"end":3476.04,"text":"我不能容許這樣發生"},{"start":3476.04,"end":3478.04,"text":"更何況受害的是我們全國的人民"},{"start":3478.04,"end":3479.04,"text":"好不好"},{"start":3479.04,"end":3481.04,"text":"所以麻煩你們這件事情真的"},{"start":3481.04,"end":3482.04,"text":"要趕快處理"},{"start":3482.04,"end":3483.04,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3483.04,"end":3485.04,"text":"我的感受是跟你一樣"},{"start":3485.04,"end":3486.04,"text":"所以對這個業者"},{"start":3486.04,"end":3488.04,"text":"我們要給予最嚴厲的處分"},{"start":3488.04,"end":3490.04,"text":"那麼至於剛剛的下架標準"},{"start":3490.04,"end":3491.04,"text":"也跟委員說明"},{"start":3491.04,"end":3493.04,"text":"我們過去的下架標準"},{"start":3493.04,"end":3495.04,"text":"跟歐盟是一樣"},{"start":3495.04,"end":3497.04,"text":"那這一次我們採比歐盟"},{"start":3497.04,"end":3498.04,"text":"更高的下架標準"},{"start":3498.04,"end":3501.04,"text":"我知道就是下架標準"},{"start":3501.04,"end":3503.04,"text":"我們是比歐盟還要嚴"},{"start":3503.04,"end":3504.04,"text":"我沒有問題"},{"start":3504.04,"end":3505.04,"text":"你現在最後全部都下架了"},{"start":3505.04,"end":3506.04,"text":"那我沒有意見"},{"start":3506.04,"end":3507.04,"text":"我只跟你說那20%"},{"start":3507.04,"end":3508.04,"text":"到現在我還是找到任何"},{"start":3508.04,"end":3511.04,"text":"因為歐盟只有低層油品下架"},{"start":3511.04,"end":3513.04,"text":"我們是比歐盟下架的"},{"start":3513.04,"end":3515.04,"text":"我知道我講東你講西"},{"start":3515.04,"end":3517.04,"text":"部長我不是外行人"},{"start":3517.04,"end":3519.04,"text":"好不好我不是外行人"},{"start":3519.04,"end":3521.04,"text":"我講東你講西"},{"start":3521.04,"end":3523.04,"text":"你講你全面下架我沒意見"},{"start":3523.04,"end":3525.04,"text":"歐盟是低層下架"},{"start":3525.04,"end":3527.04,"text":"我也沒有意見"},{"start":3527.04,"end":3528.04,"text":"但是我要跟你們報告的是"},{"start":3528.04,"end":3531.04,"text":"20%的數據沒有任何科學依據"},{"start":3531.04,"end":3533.04,"text":"我不懂為什麼行政機關"},{"start":3533.04,"end":3535.04,"text":"可以拿這個東西"},{"start":3535.04,"end":3537.04,"text":"然後來讓我們又多吃了好多天"},{"start":3537.04,"end":3539.04,"text":"我的意思在這裡"},{"start":3539.04,"end":3540.04,"text":"那也麻煩你們"},{"start":3540.04,"end":3542.04,"text":"那也麻煩法務部在將來的"},{"start":3542.04,"end":3544.04,"text":"稽查上面 偵查上面"},{"start":3544.04,"end":3546.04,"text":"能夠更積極的作為"},{"start":3546.04,"end":3548.04,"text":"好 謝謝兩位部長 謝謝"},{"start":3548.04,"end":3549.04,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3549.04,"end":3551.04,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員"},{"start":3551.04,"end":3553.04,"text":"麻煩陳昭志委員"},{"start":3554.7,"end":3556.7,"text":"接下來請有請陳昭志委員發言"},{"start":3558.77,"end":3560.77,"text":"麻煩時部長再留步好了"},{"start":3560.77,"end":3562.77,"text":"因為等隊員再留一會"},{"start":3563.39,"end":3565.39,"text":"沒有關係嗎"},{"start":3565.39,"end":3567.39,"text":"你不用質詢"},{"start":3567.39,"end":3569.39,"text":"因為時部長"},{"start":3569.39,"end":3571.39,"text":"他待會要趕到行政院去約會報告"},{"start":3571.39,"end":3573.39,"text":"那我們就先讓他先離席好了"},{"start":3576.62,"end":3578.62,"text":"是署長也要一起離開嗎"},{"start":3581.01,"end":3584.01,"text":"好 那就是副署長還有次長在這裡"},{"start":3584.82,"end":3586.82,"text":"好 那就先"},{"start":3586.69,"end":3587.69,"text":"他們兩個先離席好了"},{"start":3587.69,"end":3589.69,"text":"接下來有請陳昭志委員執行"},{"start":3589.69,"end":3590.69,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3590.69,"end":3592.69,"text":"有請國發會汪直委"},{"start":3592.69,"end":3594.69,"text":"經濟部江次長"},{"start":3594.83,"end":3596.83,"text":"有請國發會和經濟部"},{"start":3601.76,"end":3603.76,"text":"好"},{"start":3602.64,"end":3603.64,"text":"兩位早"},{"start":3603.64,"end":3606.64,"text":"我今天的質詢內容都會建立在數字"},{"start":3607.15,"end":3609.15,"text":"公函跟法規上"},{"start":3609.15,"end":3612.15,"text":"我也希望兩位也能夠就事論事"},{"start":3612.15,"end":3614.15,"text":"不要糊弄我"},{"start":3614.15,"end":3616.15,"text":"或是這個敷衍我"},{"start":3616.15,"end":3619.15,"text":"那依照現行的憲法及憲法法庭"},{"start":3619.15,"end":3622.15,"text":"第113年判字第9號有判決"},{"start":3622.15,"end":3625.15,"text":"法官員應該在這個"},{"start":3625.15,"end":3627.15,"text":"如果有不實質發言"},{"start":3627.15,"end":3629.15,"text":"應該要負政治責任"},{"start":3629.15,"end":3631.15,"text":"確實我沒有權利用法律來制裁說"},{"start":3631.15,"end":3633.15,"text":"沒有說實話的官員"},{"start":3633.15,"end":3635.15,"text":"但我相信各位首長就是"},{"start":3635.15,"end":3637.15,"text":"希望各位首長就是"},{"start":3637.15,"end":3638.15,"text":"是就是"},{"start":3638.15,"end":3639.15,"text":"不是就不是"},{"start":3639.15,"end":3640.15,"text":"有就有"},{"start":3640.15,"end":3641.15,"text":"沒有就沒有"},{"start":3641.15,"end":3642.15,"text":"謝謝兩位"},{"start":3642.15,"end":3643.15,"text":"好"},{"start":3643.15,"end":3645.15,"text":"蘇巧慧委員的妹妹蘇巧淳"},{"start":3645.15,"end":3646.15,"text":"在2021年8月"},{"start":3646.15,"end":3649.15,"text":"開始擔任礦事智能總事"},{"start":3649.15,"end":3650.15,"text":"兼營運長"},{"start":3650.15,"end":3652.15,"text":"2022年11月"},{"start":3652.15,"end":3655.15,"text":"爸爸蘇貞昌擔任行政院院長期間"},{"start":3656.29,"end":3658.29,"text":"礦事智能獲得國發基金"},{"start":3658.29,"end":3660.29,"text":"1999萬9千元"},{"start":3660.29,"end":3662.29,"text":"迴避了上限2000萬的上限"},{"start":3662.29,"end":3664.29,"text":"的投資"},{"start":3664.29,"end":3666.29,"text":"接著2023年2月"},{"start":3666.29,"end":3668.29,"text":"礦事智能宣布獲得"},{"start":3668.29,"end":3669.29,"text":"由台積銀領頭"},{"start":3669.29,"end":3671.29,"text":"國發基金"},{"start":3671.29,"end":3673.29,"text":"跟投的150萬美金的"},{"start":3673.29,"end":3675.29,"text":"PREA輪的募資"},{"start":3675.29,"end":3677.29,"text":"2024年再獲得經濟部"},{"start":3677.29,"end":3679.29,"text":"商發署120萬"},{"start":3679.29,"end":3681.29,"text":"我看到這個時間軸"},{"start":3681.29,"end":3683.29,"text":"覺得匪夷所思"},{"start":3683.29,"end":3684.29,"text":"很難不聯想"},{"start":3684.29,"end":3687.29,"text":"為什麼蘇巧淳一擔任董事"},{"start":3687.29,"end":3690.29,"text":"補助就滾滾跟著而來呢"},{"start":3690.29,"end":3692.29,"text":"更離譜的"},{"start":3692.29,"end":3694.29,"text":"在國發基金投資的前一個月"},{"start":3695.71,"end":3698.71,"text":"礦事智能旗下的唯鼓力平台"},{"start":3698.71,"end":3701.71,"text":"才因為涉及投資詐騙被起訴"},{"start":3701.71,"end":3704.71,"text":"請兩位看左邊起訴書在左邊"},{"start":3704.71,"end":3706.71,"text":"起訴理由把它放大了"},{"start":3706.71,"end":3707.71,"text":"寫在右邊"},{"start":3708.72,"end":3711.72,"text":"連這種淪為詐騙工具的平台"},{"start":3712.99,"end":3713.99,"text":"請問國發會"},{"start":3714.52,"end":3717.52,"text":"你們也敢拿人民的血汗錢去投資嗎"},{"start":3717.98,"end":3718.98,"text":"你們的審核是閉著眼睛"},{"start":3718.98,"end":3719.98,"text":"捂著良心嗎"},{"start":3719.98,"end":3721.98,"text":"請國發會回答我這個問題"},{"start":3724.12,"end":3726.12,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3726.12,"end":3728.12,"text":"礦事智能這個公司是"},{"start":3728.12,"end":3731.12,"text":"透過我們的天使投資方案"},{"start":3731.12,"end":3732.12,"text":"天使投資方案是"},{"start":3732.12,"end":3735.12,"text":"輔助新創到現在投了300多個公司"},{"start":3735.12,"end":3738.12,"text":"這是其中一個就是委員剛剛提到的"},{"start":3738.12,"end":3740.12,"text":"2022年的8月"},{"start":3740.12,"end":3741.12,"text":"舉例我的意思是說"},{"start":3741.12,"end":3744.12,"text":"他見面之前就發生這個前科嗎"},{"start":3744.48,"end":3745.48,"text":"那你們還繼續"},{"start":3746.6,"end":3747.6,"text":"沒有排除嗎"},{"start":3747.6,"end":3748.6,"text":"就是繼續給錢嗎"},{"start":3749.47,"end":3751.47,"text":"我要的只是這個部分的答案"},{"start":3751.47,"end":3753.47,"text":"你覺得這樣適合嗎"},{"start":3753.47,"end":3754.47,"text":"你覺得適合嗎"},{"start":3754.47,"end":3757.47,"text":"跟委員報告這一個時間軸上面"},{"start":3757.47,"end":3761.47,"text":"這裡的這個判決是112年"},{"start":3761.47,"end":3764.47,"text":"那他提出申請是111年"},{"start":3766.28,"end":3767.28,"text":"不丟啦"},{"start":3767.48,"end":3769.48,"text":"國發經濟投資前你閣議員嗎"},{"start":3769.48,"end":3770.48,"text":"他就跑出這個事情嗎"},{"start":3771.75,"end":3772.75,"text":"投資前一個月嘛"},{"start":3773.84,"end":3774.84,"text":"我們這邊"},{"start":3774.84,"end":3775.84,"text":"你趕快去查證"},{"start":3775.84,"end":3776.84,"text":"我們這邊的資料"},{"start":3776.84,"end":3777.84,"text":"你中檔找到的資料都七倍了"},{"start":3777.84,"end":3778.84,"text":"111年"},{"start":3778.84,"end":3779.84,"text":"我問你我還是問你"},{"start":3779.84,"end":3780.84,"text":"如果一個"},{"start":3780.84,"end":3782.84,"text":"如果你現在還在否認我們要查證"},{"start":3782.84,"end":3785.84,"text":"如果一個輪圍詐騙工具的平台"},{"start":3785.84,"end":3786.84,"text":"你們會去投資他嗎"},{"start":3786.84,"end":3788.84,"text":"你就回答我這個問題就好了"},{"start":3788.84,"end":3789.84,"text":"你會去投資他嗎"},{"start":3789.84,"end":3790.84,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":3790.84,"end":3791.84,"text":"可以投資嗎"},{"start":3791.84,"end":3793.84,"text":"基本上我們會做進職調查"},{"start":3793.84,"end":3794.84,"text":"如果有這樣的情況"},{"start":3794.84,"end":3795.84,"text":"不行嘛"},{"start":3795.84,"end":3796.84,"text":"我們現在不行嘛"},{"start":3796.84,"end":3797.84,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3797.84,"end":3798.84,"text":"好從公開判決可以知道"},{"start":3798.84,"end":3800.84,"text":"礦事智能因為他的訂閱功能"},{"start":3800.84,"end":3802.84,"text":"跟LINE 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我們也是經過審核的部分"},{"start":3849.67,"end":3852.67,"text":"況是智能營收拒伏下滑"},{"start":3852.96,"end":3853.96,"text":"營收不斷下滑"},{"start":3853.96,"end":3855.96,"text":"然後公司縮編"},{"start":3855.96,"end":3856.96,"text":"剩下八名員工"},{"start":3856.96,"end":3859.96,"text":"蘇巧淳跟七名員工"},{"start":3859.96,"end":3860.96,"text":"財務出狀況"},{"start":3860.96,"end":3861.96,"text":"但就繼續給補助"},{"start":3861.96,"end":3862.96,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":3862.96,"end":3863.96,"text":"那現在全台灣有多少公司"},{"start":3863.96,"end":3864.96,"text":"需要你們這樣補助"},{"start":3865.94,"end":3866.94,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":3866.94,"end":3867.94,"text":"我們的所謂審查案件"},{"start":3867.94,"end":3868.94,"text":"都會按規定辦理"},{"start":3868.94,"end":3869.94,"text":"如果有經過"},{"start":3869.94,"end":3870.94,"text":"而且都必須要經過"},{"start":3870.94,"end":3872.94,"text":"相關會計師查核"},{"start":3872.94,"end":3874.94,"text":"我們才會給予補助"},{"start":3874.94,"end":3875.94,"text":"好"},{"start":3875.94,"end":3876.94,"text":"你們希望你們"},{"start":3876.94,"end":3877.94,"text":"要張著眼睛看"},{"start":3877.94,"end":3878.94,"text":"不要這個昧著良心"},{"start":3878.94,"end":3879.94,"text":"不會"},{"start":3879.94,"end":3881.94,"text":"依照公職人力衝突"},{"start":3881.94,"end":3882.94,"text":"迴避法的相關規定"},{"start":3882.94,"end":3883.94,"text":"投資審查前"},{"start":3883.94,"end":3884.94,"text":"被投資的標的要"},{"start":3884.94,"end":3886.94,"text":"依法填具資料"},{"start":3886.94,"end":3887.94,"text":"自行揭露"},{"start":3887.94,"end":3888.94,"text":"來 請問國發會"},{"start":3889.82,"end":3891.82,"text":"礦事智能有依法揭露嗎"},{"start":3891.82,"end":3892.82,"text":"請回答有或沒有"},{"start":3892.82,"end":3893.82,"text":"這個問題很簡單"},{"start":3893.82,"end":3894.82,"text":"有或有沒有揭露"},{"start":3894.82,"end":3895.82,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3895.82,"end":3898.82,"text":"國發基金在受理申請的時候"},{"start":3898.82,"end":3899.82,"text":"有沒有依法揭露"},{"start":3899.82,"end":3901.82,"text":"礦事智能有沒有"},{"start":3901.82,"end":3902.82,"text":"這個簡單的問題"},{"start":3902.82,"end":3904.82,"text":"國發基金是用投資的方式"},{"start":3904.82,"end":3906.82,"text":"在協助產業的發展"},{"start":3906.82,"end":3908.82,"text":"但是依公職人員利益衝突"},{"start":3908.82,"end":3909.82,"text":"迴避法就是要揭露"},{"start":3909.82,"end":3910.82,"text":"有沒有揭露"},{"start":3910.82,"end":3911.82,"text":"你回答我"},{"start":3911.82,"end":3912.82,"text":"有沒有揭露就好了"},{"start":3912.82,"end":3914.82,"text":"那個公職人員利益衝突"},{"start":3914.82,"end":3915.82,"text":"迴避法裡面是講"},{"start":3915.82,"end":3916.82,"text":"你越說越廢"},{"start":3916.82,"end":3917.82,"text":"那就是一般的補助"},{"start":3917.82,"end":3918.82,"text":"那就是沒有"},{"start":3918.82,"end":3919.82,"text":"沒有啦 好"},{"start":3919.82,"end":3921.82,"text":"沒有 今天大家都聽到了"},{"start":3921.82,"end":3922.82,"text":"全國人都在聽"},{"start":3922.82,"end":3923.82,"text":"沒有揭露"},{"start":3923.82,"end":3924.82,"text":"好 我繼續請問你"},{"start":3924.82,"end":3925.82,"text":"投資一個涉及詐騙"},{"start":3925.82,"end":3927.82,"text":"加上財務困難的平台"},{"start":3927.82,"end":3929.82,"text":"這是納稅人的血汗錢"},{"start":3929.82,"end":3930.82,"text":"是不是已經打水漂了"},{"start":3930.82,"end":3931.82,"text":"請交代"},{"start":3931.82,"end":3933.82,"text":"我現在公司變這個樣子了"},{"start":3933.82,"end":3934.82,"text":"那也是事實"},{"start":3935.35,"end":3936.35,"text":"那你投資的錢"},{"start":3936.35,"end":3937.35,"text":"是不是已經打水漂了"},{"start":3938.08,"end":3940.08,"text":"請問你還是很有信心"},{"start":3940.08,"end":3941.08,"text":"對這個公司還是很有信心"},{"start":3941.08,"end":3943.08,"text":"你回答我 請回答我"},{"start":3943.08,"end":3944.08,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3944.08,"end":3946.08,"text":"我們國發基金"},{"start":3946.08,"end":3948.08,"text":"在天使投資方案"},{"start":3948.08,"end":3949.08,"text":"這個持股比例"},{"start":3949.08,"end":3951.08,"text":"在這家公司是8.55%"},{"start":3951.08,"end":3955.08,"text":"我們也沒有懂監視的這個席次"},{"start":3955.08,"end":3958.08,"text":"那所以這個關於公司治理"},{"start":3958.08,"end":3961.08,"text":"我們就是透過這個各種方式"},{"start":3961.08,"end":3962.08,"text":"去取得相關的資料"},{"start":3962.08,"end":3964.08,"text":"來瞭解它公司的營運"},{"start":3964.08,"end":3966.08,"text":"執密 不要說太多"},{"start":3966.08,"end":3968.08,"text":"我是只跟你問說"},{"start":3968.08,"end":3970.08,"text":"你投資一個涉及詐騙"},{"start":3970.08,"end":3971.08,"text":"這個詐騙 我有判決書給你看"},{"start":3971.08,"end":3973.08,"text":"判決內容給你看"},{"start":3973.08,"end":3974.08,"text":"那加上財務困難的平台"},{"start":3974.08,"end":3975.08,"text":"一直縮編"},{"start":3975.08,"end":3976.08,"text":"剩下沒幾個人"},{"start":3976.08,"end":3978.08,"text":"一個規模比個立法院委員的辦公室還小"},{"start":3979.22,"end":3981.22,"text":"那你還是把這筆錢給出去了嘛"},{"start":3981.22,"end":3982.22,"text":"這是納稅人的錢"},{"start":3982.22,"end":3983.22,"text":"不是你們的錢喔"},{"start":3983.22,"end":3985.22,"text":"不是你們的人 是我們的錢喔"},{"start":3986.29,"end":3987.29,"text":"我跟委員報告就是"},{"start":3987.29,"end":3988.29,"text":"那你還有信心嗎"},{"start":3988.29,"end":3989.29,"text":"這個錢丟出去可以嗎"},{"start":3989.29,"end":3991.29,"text":"剛剛我提到的就是說"},{"start":3991.29,"end":3995.29,"text":"他申請的時候是111年8月23號"},{"start":3995.29,"end":3998.29,"text":"那剛剛提的這一個是在那個之後"},{"start":3998.29,"end":4001.29,"text":"那之後他還有一次來申請現金增資"},{"start":4001.29,"end":4004.29,"text":"後面還有在訴訟這個判決之後"},{"start":4004.29,"end":4005.29,"text":"還有一次來現金增資"},{"start":4005.29,"end":4007.29,"text":"你把名字拿掉 我剛剛就問你嘛"},{"start":4007.29,"end":4009.29,"text":"這幾個投資詐騙的平台"},{"start":4009.29,"end":4010.29,"text":"那你要不要繼續投資它"},{"start":4010.29,"end":4011.29,"text":"不可以還是可以"},{"start":4011.29,"end":4013.29,"text":"如果有一個詐騙平台有前科"},{"start":4013.29,"end":4015.29,"text":"你要繼續給錢嗎"},{"start":4015.29,"end":4017.29,"text":"你可以拿我們大陸人的錢給他嗎"},{"start":4017.29,"end":4019.29,"text":"有這樣的事實在審議"},{"start":4019.29,"end":4021.29,"text":"投評會是不會通過的"},{"start":4021.29,"end":4023.29,"text":"好 爸爸當行政院長"},{"start":4023.29,"end":4025.29,"text":"女兒的公司就能夠進兩千萬上限的"},{"start":4025.29,"end":4026.29,"text":"國發基金投資"},{"start":4026.29,"end":4028.29,"text":"這就是執政黨的這個利益迴避標準嘛"},{"start":4028.29,"end":4029.29,"text":"故事還沒有結束"},{"start":4029.29,"end":4030.29,"text":"我們來看另外一家"},{"start":4030.29,"end":4031.29,"text":"歪如科技"},{"start":4031.29,"end":4033.29,"text":"蘇小淳在裡面擔任旗下"},{"start":4033.29,"end":4036.29,"text":"他擔任旗下那個AkaSwap的執行長"},{"start":4036.29,"end":4039.29,"text":"短短時間內這家公司連續拿了經濟部"},{"start":4039.29,"end":4040.29,"text":"好幾百萬的補助"},{"start":4040.29,"end":4041.29,"text":"請問經濟部"},{"start":4041.29,"end":4043.29,"text":"你們給的補助是看專業能力"},{"start":4043.29,"end":4044.29,"text":"還是看背後的門神"},{"start":4044.29,"end":4045.29,"text":"請告訴我"},{"start":4046.49,"end":4049.49,"text":"報告委員申請的公司是歪如"},{"start":4049.49,"end":4051.49,"text":"那就我們了解這個"},{"start":4051.49,"end":4053.49,"text":"蘇小淳按照這個檢討"},{"start":4053.49,"end":4054.49,"text":"他旗下有AkaSwap"},{"start":4054.49,"end":4055.49,"text":"你也很清楚"},{"start":4055.49,"end":4056.49,"text":"下面我還有資料"},{"start":4056.49,"end":4059.49,"text":"我們對於補助的對象是歪如科技"},{"start":4059.49,"end":4062.49,"text":"不是他下包的廠商"},{"start":4062.49,"end":4063.49,"text":"你這樣講"},{"start":4063.49,"end":4064.49,"text":"來請你繼續聽好"},{"start":4064.49,"end":4066.49,"text":"經濟部也一起聽好"},{"start":4066.49,"end":4070.49,"text":"連蘇小淳自己在接受經濟部商發署訪問的時候"},{"start":4071.34,"end":4072.34,"text":"我都有資料了"},{"start":4072.34,"end":4076.34,"text":"都公開承認歪如科技就是AkaSwap的營運者"},{"start":4076.69,"end":4077.69,"text":"你跟他說"},{"start":4078.84,"end":4080.84,"text":"你不要再退縣黃了啦"},{"start":4080.84,"end":4083.84,"text":"既然實際營運者是立委的二等"},{"start":4083.84,"end":4084.84,"text":"二親等親屬"},{"start":4084.84,"end":4085.84,"text":"經濟部審查師"},{"start":4085.84,"end":4088.84,"text":"沒有要求填寫利益衝突揭露表嗎"},{"start":4088.84,"end":4089.84,"text":"沒有嗎"},{"start":4089.84,"end":4091.84,"text":"還是遇到這個蘇家族就自動放水呢"},{"start":4093.06,"end":4094.06,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":4094.06,"end":4095.06,"text":"他自己都說是啦"},{"start":4095.06,"end":4097.0599999999995,"text":"他是他的下包公司"},{"start":4097.0599999999995,"end":4101.0599999999995,"text":"那歪如科技的負責人等等的登記不是"},{"start":4101.0599999999995,"end":4102.0599999999995,"text":"他自己就說是啊"},{"start":4102.0599999999995,"end":4103.0599999999995,"text":"你要跟我說不是喔"},{"start":4103.0599999999995,"end":4105.0599999999995,"text":"他公開的登記的資料"},{"start":4105.0599999999995,"end":4106.0599999999995,"text":"他不是"},{"start":4106.0599999999995,"end":4107.0599999999995,"text":"今天這個"},{"start":4107.0599999999995,"end":4108.0599999999995,"text":"他是他下包的廠商"},{"start":4108.0599999999995,"end":4109.0599999999995,"text":"歪如科技的次長在這邊"},{"start":4109.0599999999995,"end":4111.0599999999995,"text":"我自己擔任那個健保署"},{"start":4111.0599999999995,"end":4113.0599999999995,"text":"將近三十年的專家審查委員"},{"start":4113.0599999999995,"end":4115.0599999999995,"text":"大概我估算三年"},{"start":4115.0599999999995,"end":4117.0599999999995,"text":"大概審過七八件的那個新藥申請案"},{"start":4117.0599999999995,"end":4119.0599999999995,"text":"我每一案足案"},{"start":4120.18,"end":4122.18,"text":"都要填寫利益衝突"},{"start":4123.2,"end":4124.2,"text":"各別的藥品"},{"start":4124.2,"end":4126.2,"text":"那我請問你這麼重要的事情"},{"start":4127.5,"end":4129.5,"text":"健保署會管你管嗎"},{"start":4130.44,"end":4131.44,"text":"你們不需要看嗎"},{"start":4131.44,"end":4133.44,"text":"不愛參與利益回避這個衝突的部分嗎"},{"start":4133.44,"end":4134.44,"text":"不需要嗎"},{"start":4135.01,"end":4137.01,"text":"還是你遇到蘇嘉琳就自動放水"},{"start":4137.01,"end":4139.01,"text":"我們對於所有的補助案"},{"start":4139.01,"end":4141.01,"text":"都會提示申請的廠商"},{"start":4141.01,"end":4143.01,"text":"這件事我們跟經濟部有所知喔"},{"start":4143.01,"end":4145.01,"text":"經濟部回文直接證實喔"},{"start":4145.01,"end":4147.01,"text":"歪如科技在申請補助時"},{"start":4147.01,"end":4150.01,"text":"根本就沒有提供公職人身份關係揭露表"},{"start":4150.01,"end":4153.01,"text":"為什麼經濟部可以容許這件事發生"},{"start":4153.01,"end":4154.01,"text":"難道真的是綠營全貴"},{"start":4154.01,"end":4156.01,"text":"就能夠閉著眼睛給補助嗎"},{"start":4156.01,"end":4158.01,"text":"給陳明哥交代吧"},{"start":4158.74,"end":4160.74,"text":"因為根據立沖法的關係"},{"start":4160.74,"end":4163.74,"text":"是董監事還有負責人要填具相關的資料"},{"start":4163.74,"end":4164.74,"text":"但是歪如科技"},{"start":4164.74,"end":4166.74,"text":"就是他填什麼你都不在乎啊"},{"start":4166.74,"end":4167.74,"text":"你填完我就給啊"},{"start":4167.74,"end":4168.74,"text":"你都不用查證"},{"start":4170.43,"end":4171.43,"text":"如果不填呢怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4171.43,"end":4172.43,"text":"那形同虛設嗎"},{"start":4173.45,"end":4174.45,"text":"因為我們是按照立沖法"},{"start":4174.45,"end":4176.45,"text":"你們跟我們證實的歪如科技"},{"start":4176.45,"end":4178.45,"text":"根本沒有提供這個利益衝突關係喔"},{"start":4178.45,"end":4179.45,"text":"沒有揭露喔"},{"start":4180.81,"end":4182.81,"text":"這是非常重大的事情喔"},{"start":4185.87,"end":4187.87,"text":"對不對今天沒有到場躲在監察院"},{"start":4188.68,"end":4189.68,"text":"躲在監察院"},{"start":4189.68,"end":4193.68,"text":"然後再監看今天的國會頻道的監察院代表"},{"start":4194.7,"end":4196.7,"text":"公職人員二親等親屬擔任相關職務"},{"start":4196.7,"end":4198.7,"text":"申請補助就必須依法揭露啊"},{"start":4199.78,"end":4200.78,"text":"蘇小愛身為立委"},{"start":4200.78,"end":4201.78,"text":"一方面審查國家預算"},{"start":4201.78,"end":4203.78,"text":"一方面讓妹妹的公司拿補助啊"},{"start":4203.78,"end":4204.78,"text":"就完全沒有申報啊"},{"start":4204.78,"end":4205.78,"text":"這樣沒有違法嗎"},{"start":4207.37,"end":4208.37,"text":"你們要配合嗎"},{"start":4208.37,"end":4209.37,"text":"其他部位都要配合嗎"},{"start":4212.64,"end":4213.64,"text":"你們今天談的部分"},{"start":4214.36,"end":4216.36,"text":"我繼續會用資料來追索"},{"start":4216.36,"end":4219.36,"text":"我們要有一個被人民講清楚說明白"},{"start":4220.22,"end":4221.22,"text":"謝謝兩位首長"},{"start":4221.22,"end":4222.22,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4235.22,"end":4235.72,"text":"好"},{"start":4236.36,"end":4239.36,"text":"接下來我們請翁曉玲委員來諮詢"},{"start":4244.53,"end":4245.53,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":4245.53,"end":4247.53,"text":"我想首先先請政部長"},{"start":4247.53,"end":4249.53,"text":"法務部政部長"},{"start":4249.53,"end":4250.53,"text":"法務部次長"},{"start":4250.53,"end":4251.53,"text":"政部長"},{"start":4251.53,"end":4252.53,"text":"政部長"},{"start":4256.06,"end":4257.06,"text":"部長好"},{"start":4257.06,"end":4258.06,"text":"我想這個"},{"start":4258.06,"end":4260.06,"text":"最近大家對於獨遊的世界"},{"start":4260.06,"end":4263.06,"text":"事實上大家很關心"},{"start":4263.06,"end":4265.06,"text":"到底我們現在"},{"start":4265.06,"end":4266.06,"text":"法務部我們的地檢所"},{"start":4266.06,"end":4268.06,"text":"偵辦的情況如何"},{"start":4268.06,"end":4271.06,"text":"但在這裡我想要先回顧一下"},{"start":4271.06,"end":4274.06,"text":"過去我們也曾經發生過"},{"start":4274.06,"end":4280.06,"text":"豎起跟石油有關的案子"},{"start":4280.06,"end":4282.06,"text":"我們先看在2013年"},{"start":4282.06,"end":4284.06,"text":"2013年當時曾經有發生了"},{"start":4284.06,"end":4286.06,"text":"大統長機的混油案"},{"start":4286.06,"end":4288.06,"text":"這大統長機混油案當時"},{"start":4288.06,"end":4290.06,"text":"其實就是他的負責人高正立"},{"start":4290.06,"end":4294.06,"text":"他用便宜的棉花籽油還有葵花油"},{"start":4294.06,"end":4298.06,"text":"然後加了這個銅液氯素進行染色"},{"start":4298.06,"end":4300.06,"text":"然後混充式橄欖油"},{"start":4300.06,"end":4303.06,"text":"那麼在當時彰化地檢署"},{"start":4303.06,"end":4306.06,"text":"他2013年10月15號執行搜索"},{"start":4306.06,"end":4309.06,"text":"2013年的10月25號"},{"start":4309.06,"end":4314.06,"text":"就已經偵查終結並且提起公訴"},{"start":4314.06,"end":4317.06,"text":"簡單來說就是從搜索到起訴"},{"start":4317.06,"end":4321.06,"text":"前前後後只有10天的時間"},{"start":4321.06,"end":4323.06,"text":"當時彰化地檢署就說"},{"start":4323.06,"end":4325.06,"text":"他是創下重大民生案件"},{"start":4325.06,"end":4328.06,"text":"極快速偵辦的紀錄"},{"start":4328.06,"end":4331.06,"text":"那我們再看看2014年的"},{"start":4331.06,"end":4333.06,"text":"鼎鑫劣質油案"},{"start":4333.06,"end":4336.06,"text":"警方當時也是幾乎是全力的偵辦"},{"start":4336.06,"end":4339.06,"text":"大規模的搜索扣押傳喚"},{"start":4339.06,"end":4342.06,"text":"甚至還生押限制出境等等"},{"start":4342.06,"end":4345.06,"text":"這個案件基本上也是相當迅速的"},{"start":4345.06,"end":4346.06,"text":"就終結起訴"},{"start":4346.06,"end":4349.06,"text":"大概前後也只有20天左右"},{"start":4350.69,"end":4351.69,"text":"那我們再"},{"start":4352.09,"end":4354.09,"text":"反過來我們再來對比"},{"start":4354.09,"end":4357.09,"text":"我們來看看今天的中聯油脂案"},{"start":4357.09,"end":4359.09,"text":"人民看到的是另一種景象"},{"start":4359.09,"end":4362.09,"text":"台中地檢署是在7月2號"},{"start":4362.09,"end":4365.09,"text":"就已經啟動了查緝民生犯罪聯繫平台"},{"start":4365.09,"end":4368.09,"text":"建立中央與地方行政與檢警"},{"start":4368.09,"end":4371.09,"text":"與這個檢警調聯的"},{"start":4372.11,"end":4374.11,"text":"與檢警調聯的聯繫機制"},{"start":4374.11,"end":4376.11,"text":"然後督導各地方檢察署"},{"start":4376.11,"end":4379.11,"text":"要查緝民生犯罪小組"},{"start":4379.11,"end":4381.11,"text":"但是到現在已經20多天了"},{"start":4382.11,"end":4383.11,"text":"請問起訴了嗎?"},{"start":4384.75,"end":4387.75,"text":"這中間進行了幾次搜索?"},{"start":4415.75,"end":4416.75,"text":"他有申請機制"},{"start":4416.75,"end":4423.75,"text":"另外有兩位被告是預知交保"},{"start":4423.75,"end":4426.75,"text":"另外九位是請回"},{"start":4426.75,"end":4427.75,"text":"那是相關的一個證人"},{"start":4427.75,"end":4430.75,"text":"我想我們是積極的一個偵辦"},{"start":4430.75,"end":4433.75,"text":"可是部長您剛說積極偵辦"},{"start":4433.75,"end":4436.75,"text":"可是我們對比2013年的大統油案"},{"start":4436.75,"end":4439.75,"text":"還有2014年的鼎鑫油案"},{"start":4439.75,"end":4441.75,"text":"每個案件的類型不一樣"},{"start":4441.75,"end":4443.75,"text":"因為這次有那個"},{"start":4443.75,"end":4445.75,"text":"他們的涉及的複雜的程度"},{"start":4445.75,"end":4448.75,"text":"也不見得會比這次要來的單純"},{"start":4448.75,"end":4451.75,"text":"那麼事實上本席其實在乎的就是說"},{"start":4451.75,"end":4453.75,"text":"法務部到現在為止"},{"start":4453.75,"end":4454.75,"text":"你們對於這個案子"},{"start":4454.75,"end":4456.75,"text":"有沒有成立了專案小組"},{"start":4456.75,"end":4457.75,"text":"這個有"},{"start":4457.75,"end":4459.75,"text":"有全面的去清查嗎?"},{"start":4459.75,"end":4461.75,"text":"那不僅是針對剛剛講的"},{"start":4461.75,"end":4463.75,"text":"個案這幾家公司"},{"start":4463.75,"end":4467.75,"text":"還包括全面清查他的供應鏈流向"},{"start":4467.75,"end":4469.75,"text":"以及追究相關責任嗎?"},{"start":4469.75,"end":4471.75,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4471.75,"end":4473.75,"text":"就是在第一時間的時候"},{"start":4473.75,"end":4475.75,"text":"太立案的話就成立專案小組"},{"start":4475.75,"end":4477.75,"text":"在7月2號就有成立專案"},{"start":4477.75,"end":4479.75,"text":"而且這個專家那個還有一些的機關"},{"start":4479.75,"end":4481.75,"text":"有納入這個小組裡面"},{"start":4481.75,"end":4486.75,"text":"這個高檢署有啟動查緝民生犯罪的聯繫平台"},{"start":4486.75,"end":4489.75,"text":"這個除了辦案單位以外"},{"start":4489.75,"end":4492.75,"text":"還有食藥署還有行政院食安辦"},{"start":4492.75,"end":4493.75,"text":"他的都有進來"},{"start":4493.75,"end":4495.75,"text":"那另外地檢有成立一個"},{"start":4495.75,"end":4497.75,"text":"執行的一個犯罪的一個小組"},{"start":4497.75,"end":4500.75,"text":"那這位跟台中市衛生處"},{"start":4500.75,"end":4503.75,"text":"還有食品衛生處"},{"start":4503.75,"end":4504.75,"text":"另外還有食藥署的"},{"start":4504.75,"end":4506.75,"text":"市北市現在想要請教就是說"},{"start":4506.75,"end":4508.75,"text":"除了這幾家公司之外"},{"start":4508.75,"end":4510.75,"text":"有沒有你們還去清查"},{"start":4510.75,"end":4512.75,"text":"他的原料來源的東西"},{"start":4512.75,"end":4516.75,"text":"這個案件的確是有向上溯源的一個必要"},{"start":4516.75,"end":4518.75,"text":"所以我想這個"},{"start":4518.75,"end":4521.75,"text":"如果說我們絕對是有希望了解說"},{"start":4521.75,"end":4524.75,"text":"檢察官的一定是要向上溯源"},{"start":4524.75,"end":4528.75,"text":"他把所有的犯罪來做徹底的一個清查"},{"start":4528.75,"end":4530.75,"text":"那我想這個請委員放心"},{"start":4530.75,"end":4532.75,"text":"這個我們會全力來查"},{"start":4532.75,"end":4534.75,"text":"因為現在到目前為止"},{"start":4534.75,"end":4535.75,"text":"我們沒有看到就是說"},{"start":4535.75,"end":4538.75,"text":"到底向上清查到什麼樣的範圍"},{"start":4538.75,"end":4539.75,"text":"什麼樣的程度"},{"start":4539.75,"end":4541.75,"text":"然後又去這個偵查了"},{"start":4541.75,"end":4545.75,"text":"或搜索了有哪一些就是非這幾家公司之外的"},{"start":4545.75,"end":4546.75,"text":"其他的事業單位"},{"start":4546.75,"end":4549.75,"text":"這次我想檢察官會按照這個證據"},{"start":4549.75,"end":4553.75,"text":"收集的來做一個向上的一個溯源"},{"start":4553.75,"end":4556.75,"text":"又就橫向的跟向上的溯源"},{"start":4556.75,"end":4562.75,"text":"我想檢察官一定有這樣的一個辦案的一個企圖心"},{"start":4562.75,"end":4564.75,"text":"好 本席要再次強調就是說"},{"start":4564.75,"end":4567.75,"text":"因為我們都會去看看過去怎麼做"},{"start":4567.75,"end":4572.75,"text":"那現在我們這個檢方對比在十年前"},{"start":4572.75,"end":4575.75,"text":"十二年前當時的偵辦的速度"},{"start":4575.75,"end":4578.75,"text":"還有他的偵查的範圍來比"},{"start":4578.75,"end":4580.75,"text":"然後我們至少本席認為"},{"start":4580.75,"end":4583.75,"text":"這次中年有止案的辦案的強度"},{"start":4583.75,"end":4587.75,"text":"似乎是遠不如前面剛剛講的兩個案子"},{"start":4587.75,"end":4590.75,"text":"那麼已經到現在為止都已經拖了二十幾天"},{"start":4590.75,"end":4591.75,"text":"都還沒結束"},{"start":4591.75,"end":4592.75,"text":"這個辦案在偵查中來講"},{"start":4592.75,"end":4595.75,"text":"這個辦案我們就是還要縝密的一個偵查"},{"start":4595.75,"end":4599.75,"text":"那跟委員報告其實我們也注意到"},{"start":4599.75,"end":4601.75,"text":"要做財產的一個保全"},{"start":4601.75,"end":4603.75,"text":"因為這個有團體訴訟的一個問題"},{"start":4603.75,"end":4605.75,"text":"對 所以你們已經做了財產保全"},{"start":4605.75,"end":4606.75,"text":"這也是本席接下來想問的"},{"start":4606.75,"end":4609.75,"text":"那個財產保全這部分我們有扣押了"},{"start":4609.75,"end":4611.75,"text":"這些的"},{"start":4612.56,"end":4615.56,"text":"可以先大概講一下對扣押的範圍有什麼"},{"start":4615.56,"end":4622.56,"text":"在7月14號就有向台中電郵申請查過犯罪所得"},{"start":4622.56,"end":4625.56,"text":"那這個法院7月14號有"},{"start":4625.56,"end":4627.56,"text":"就四家公司嘛"},{"start":4627.56,"end":4629.56,"text":"中年福茂、福壽跟泰山"},{"start":4629.56,"end":4634.56,"text":"有查扣了價值兩億五千三百多萬的不動產"},{"start":4634.56,"end":4637.56,"text":"那在裡面這些不動產的價值裡面"},{"start":4637.56,"end":4640.56,"text":"有一億兩千六百多萬元的範圍內"},{"start":4640.56,"end":4642.56,"text":"來做一個扣押"},{"start":4642.56,"end":4643.56,"text":"那我想這"},{"start":4643.56,"end":4645.56,"text":"簡單來說只扣押了一億兩千多萬"},{"start":4645.56,"end":4646.56,"text":"這部分我們"},{"start":4646.56,"end":4648.56,"text":"還是兩億六千多萬"},{"start":4648.56,"end":4654.56,"text":"這部分我們是依照食品衛生管理法49之一的"},{"start":4654.56,"end":4657.56,"text":"受審訂定的食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":4657.56,"end":4660.56,"text":"沒收沒入追徵追繳違法所得"},{"start":4660.56,"end":4663.56,"text":"估算及推估的計價辦法"},{"start":4663.56,"end":4665.56,"text":"參考衛福部認定的犯罪所得"},{"start":4665.56,"end":4666.56,"text":"跟追徵的範圍"},{"start":4666.56,"end":4668.56,"text":"來做一個扣押的"},{"start":4668.56,"end":4672.56,"text":"所以你們扣押目前的範圍是多少錢嗎"},{"start":4672.56,"end":4674.56,"text":"那個價值是兩億多"},{"start":4674.56,"end":4675.56,"text":"兩億多"},{"start":4675.56,"end":4676.56,"text":"總共是兩億多"},{"start":4676.56,"end":4677.56,"text":"兩億多的價值"},{"start":4677.56,"end":4681.56,"text":"那裡面範圍是一億兩千多的範圍"},{"start":4681.56,"end":4682.56,"text":"這法院的一個裁定"},{"start":4682.56,"end":4685.56,"text":"那我想這部分如果說我有這個扣大的"},{"start":4685.56,"end":4687.56,"text":"我們會再做另外再申請"},{"start":4687.56,"end":4691.56,"text":"好那接下來我想請那個衛福部的林次長"},{"start":4696.85,"end":4697.85,"text":"好是"},{"start":4698.72,"end":4699.72,"text":"是 次長好"},{"start":4699.72,"end":4701.72,"text":"因為剛剛部長已經講了"},{"start":4701.72,"end":4704.72,"text":"其實他們已經也去扣押了一些"},{"start":4704.72,"end":4706.72,"text":"這個犯罪所得"},{"start":4706.72,"end":4710.72,"text":"就是怕說未來可能會有脫產這些問題"},{"start":4710.72,"end":4713.72,"text":"但是事實上這是為了避免業者脫產"},{"start":4713.72,"end":4717.72,"text":"那麼不知道現在衛福部有沒有對於"},{"start":4717.72,"end":4720.72,"text":"就是這幾家公司已經有申請要依法扣留"},{"start":4720.72,"end":4723.72,"text":"或者是向行政法院有申請假扣押假處分"},{"start":4723.72,"end":4727.72,"text":"要先把這些公司的財產先扣住"},{"start":4727.72,"end":4732.72,"text":"免得到時候之後我們消費者提起團體訴訟"},{"start":4732.72,"end":4736.72,"text":"請求民事損害賠償的時候會求償無門"},{"start":4736.72,"end":4738.72,"text":"就是因為他都已經脫產了"},{"start":4738.72,"end":4740.72,"text":"不知道衛福部有沒有做了這個動作"},{"start":4740.72,"end":4743.72,"text":"現在是我們跟因為時間一發生"},{"start":4743.72,"end":4747.72,"text":"我們就跟這個司法這邊機關這邊配合調查"},{"start":4747.72,"end":4749.72,"text":"那目前我們在法律上面"},{"start":4749.72,"end":4752.72,"text":"我們現在還是在處理他們相關的有品的問題"},{"start":4752.72,"end":4755.72,"text":"那當然新的修法這邊會在法院上面進入"},{"start":4755.72,"end":4758.72,"text":"就是有對於財產相關做一些扣押的動作"},{"start":4758.72,"end":4759.72,"text":"在食安法這邊"},{"start":4759.72,"end":4761.72,"text":"是嗎 裡面已經有申請嗎"},{"start":4761.72,"end":4764.72,"text":"沒有 現在在未來的修法會加上這個部分"},{"start":4765.78,"end":4767.78,"text":"這不需要未來的修法吧"},{"start":4767.78,"end":4769.78,"text":"你們現在其實依照相關法律"},{"start":4769.78,"end":4770.78,"text":"你們就可以依照行政訴訟法"},{"start":4770.78,"end":4771.78,"text":"你們就可以提出了"},{"start":4771.78,"end":4773.78,"text":"這不需要相關修法"},{"start":4774.56,"end":4775.56,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":4775.84,"end":4777.84,"text":"對 在訴訟上面你們就可以提了"},{"start":4777.84,"end":4778.84,"text":"這個部分好"},{"start":4778.84,"end":4781.84,"text":"對 只要有時可見你們還沒有做呢"},{"start":4781.84,"end":4783.84,"text":"本來是要提醒你們趕快去做"},{"start":4783.84,"end":4785.84,"text":"對 這經過這二十幾天"},{"start":4785.84,"end":4788.84,"text":"搞不好這個幾家公司都已經脫產了"},{"start":4790.24,"end":4792.24,"text":"到時候就算是讓我堅定說"},{"start":4792.24,"end":4795.24,"text":"真的會對消費者的身體造成傷害"},{"start":4795.94,"end":4798.94,"text":"要去請求民事損害賠償"},{"start":4798.94,"end":4801.94,"text":"最後人家的錢都已經都脫產"},{"start":4801.94,"end":4803.94,"text":"就是求償也求償不到了"},{"start":4803.94,"end":4804.94,"text":"這是蠻嚴重的問題"},{"start":4804.94,"end":4805.94,"text":"我們也希望說之後這個責任"},{"start":4805.94,"end":4806.94,"text":"要回到業者這邊"},{"start":4806.94,"end":4807.94,"text":"所以委員這邊提醒"},{"start":4807.94,"end":4809.94,"text":"我們會來跟我們的相關法務單位"},{"start":4809.94,"end":4810.94,"text":"來做這個討論"},{"start":4810.94,"end":4811.94,"text":"是 因為這個問題"},{"start":4811.94,"end":4813.94,"text":"其實也涉及到這個"},{"start":4813.94,"end":4815.94,"text":"整個的司法"},{"start":4815.94,"end":4817.94,"text":"現在我們的相關法律規定的問題"},{"start":4817.94,"end":4819.94,"text":"其實今天司法院"},{"start":4819.94,"end":4821.94,"text":"它做的有關食安的報告"},{"start":4821.94,"end":4823.94,"text":"我覺得這份報告非常好"},{"start":4823.94,"end":4825.94,"text":"整理了很多很重要的一個資料"},{"start":4825.94,"end":4826.94,"text":"裡面有講到"},{"start":4826.94,"end":4827.94,"text":"因為過去食安事件"},{"start":4827.94,"end":4829.94,"text":"因為適用刑事優先原則"},{"start":4829.94,"end":4831.94,"text":"所以曾經有引發"},{"start":4831.94,"end":4833.94,"text":"就算是高額的行政法"},{"start":4833.94,"end":4835.94,"text":"也會被撤銷"},{"start":4835.94,"end":4836.94,"text":"因為刑事處罰"},{"start":4836.94,"end":4839.94,"text":"不能夠完全剝奪不法律的爭議"},{"start":4839.94,"end":4841.94,"text":"所以這個是當時"},{"start":4841.94,"end":4843.94,"text":"就是這次司法院所提出的報告裡面"},{"start":4843.94,"end":4845.94,"text":"有講到的"},{"start":4845.94,"end":4846.94,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":4848,"end":4849,"text":"刑事優先"},{"start":4849,"end":4852,"text":"所以就算行政機關你現在處罰了他1.6億"},{"start":4852,"end":4855,"text":"但是後來之後可能會依照刑事判決"},{"start":4855,"end":4857,"text":"然後來看他的犯罪所得等等"},{"start":4857,"end":4859,"text":"所以如果說他這邊犯罪所得"},{"start":4859,"end":4860,"text":"他只有1.21"},{"start":4860,"end":4862,"text":"他那1.6億這部分他全部都撤銷掉"},{"start":4862,"end":4864,"text":"這是蠻嚴重的問題"},{"start":4864,"end":4865,"text":"那我們本席"},{"start":4865,"end":4866,"text":"當然第一個是希望"},{"start":4866,"end":4868,"text":"這衛福部要加速腳步"},{"start":4868,"end":4869,"text":"趕快先去扣留"},{"start":4869,"end":4871,"text":"這些相關公司的財產"},{"start":4871,"end":4872,"text":"那麼第二個"},{"start":4872,"end":4874,"text":"我也希望我們檢方能夠儘速起訴"},{"start":4874,"end":4875,"text":"好不好"},{"start":4875,"end":4876,"text":"儘速起訴"},{"start":4876,"end":4877,"text":"好"},{"start":4877,"end":4879,"text":"那接下來我們也請聖能傑師部長"},{"start":4879,"end":4881,"text":"這裡有一題想跟您請教"},{"start":4881,"end":4883,"text":"因為我們今天還有另外一個題目"},{"start":4883,"end":4885,"text":"是涉及到旋轉門條款"},{"start":4896.21,"end":4897.21,"text":"各位好"},{"start":4897.21,"end":4898.21,"text":"是"},{"start":4898.21,"end":4899.21,"text":"部長好"},{"start":4899.21,"end":4901.21,"text":"對其實我在前幾天"},{"start":4901.21,"end":4902.21,"text":"我看到一則新聞"},{"start":4902.21,"end":4903.21,"text":"這個新聞主要在講"},{"start":4903.21,"end":4905.21,"text":"這個附稅署的署長宋秀玲"},{"start":4905.21,"end":4907.21,"text":"她退休"},{"start":4907.21,"end":4908.21,"text":"那麼這個新聞上面講說"},{"start":4908.21,"end":4910.21,"text":"這個宋署長退休之後"},{"start":4910.21,"end":4914.21,"text":"四大會計事務所急著搶人"},{"start":4914.21,"end":4916.21,"text":"那尤子可應該是"},{"start":4916.21,"end":4918.21,"text":"這個宋署長他表現非常好"},{"start":4918.21,"end":4919.21,"text":"很有專業"},{"start":4919.21,"end":4921.21,"text":"所以他退休"},{"start":4921.21,"end":4924.21,"text":"馬上這個會計事務所就急著"},{"start":4924.21,"end":4927.21,"text":"想要這個聘任他"},{"start":4927.21,"end":4929.21,"text":"那他當然現在據新聞報載了"},{"start":4929.21,"end":4932.21,"text":"應該是會到資層會計事務所"},{"start":4932.21,"end":4934.21,"text":"可是本席在這裡就有提出一個"},{"start":4934.21,"end":4936.21,"text":"就提一個問題就是"},{"start":4936.21,"end":4937.21,"text":"因為我們知道"},{"start":4937.21,"end":4940.21,"text":"這會計事務所跟附稅署"},{"start":4940.21,"end":4942.21,"text":"他們的業務基本上"},{"start":4942.21,"end":4943.21,"text":"也是有密切關聯的"},{"start":4943.21,"end":4945.21,"text":"附稅署本身"},{"start":4945.21,"end":4947.21,"text":"它是跟這個處理"},{"start":4947.21,"end":4949.21,"text":"有關於稅法的修正"},{"start":4949.21,"end":4951.21,"text":"稅法的修正擬定"},{"start":4951.21,"end":4954.21,"text":"還有處理跟這個查稅"},{"start":4954.21,"end":4958.21,"text":"以及稅務訴訟等等這些業務"},{"start":4958.21,"end":4961.21,"text":"那麼現在這附稅署署長"},{"start":4961.21,"end":4964.21,"text":"一退休馬上就轉任會計事務所"},{"start":4964.21,"end":4967.21,"text":"這個會不會有違反旋轉門的問題"},{"start":4968.62,"end":4970.62,"text":"我跟文報具體的個案我不清楚"},{"start":4970.62,"end":4972.62,"text":"那時候我談大大的東西"},{"start":4972.62,"end":4974.62,"text":"根據我們現在法律的規定"},{"start":4974.97,"end":4976.97,"text":"旋轉門是禁止公務人員"},{"start":4976.97,"end":4979.97,"text":"在一定時間裡面到一個盈利事業"},{"start":4979.97,"end":4981.97,"text":"主體一定是盈利事業"},{"start":4981.97,"end":4983.97,"text":"要符合盈利事業擔任特定職務"},{"start":4984.57,"end":4986.57,"text":"可是我們不管特定行為"},{"start":4986.57,"end":4987.57,"text":"所以這兩個不同的概念"},{"start":4989.19,"end":4991.19,"text":"會計事務所或者律師事務所"},{"start":4991.19,"end":4993.19,"text":"在我們現行的法律制度上"},{"start":4993.19,"end":4994.19,"text":"它不是盈利事業"},{"start":4994.19,"end":4995.19,"text":"因為我們盈利事業的定義"},{"start":4995.19,"end":4998.19,"text":"是根據公司法或者商業登記法"},{"start":4998.19,"end":5001.19,"text":"或者所得稅法所定義的盈利事業"},{"start":5001.19,"end":5002.19,"text":"所以我現在"},{"start":5002.19,"end":5003.19,"text":"我跟文報這現行的法律"},{"start":5003.19,"end":5004.19,"text":"是這樣一個概念"},{"start":5004.19,"end":5006.19,"text":"那因此在概念上"},{"start":5006.19,"end":5008.19,"text":"它就不是盈利事業"},{"start":5008.19,"end":5009.19,"text":"那是不是回過頭來"},{"start":5009.19,"end":5011.19,"text":"它如果到一個不是盈利事業"},{"start":5011.19,"end":5013.19,"text":"譬如像說類似這種"},{"start":5013.19,"end":5015.19,"text":"譬如說不管是律師事務所"},{"start":5015.19,"end":5016.19,"text":"或是會計事務所"},{"start":5016.19,"end":5017.19,"text":"因為很多專業人員"},{"start":5017.81,"end":5018.81,"text":"回來也會回去"},{"start":5018.81,"end":5021.81,"text":"那我們要不要怎麼樣去做一些討論"},{"start":5021.81,"end":5022.81,"text":"這是另外一回事"},{"start":5022.81,"end":5023.81,"text":"其實本席知道說部長您"},{"start":5023.81,"end":5024.81,"text":"可能一定會這樣回答"},{"start":5024.81,"end":5025.81,"text":"尤其是全序部本身"},{"start":5025.81,"end":5026.81,"text":"也做了一個解釋嘛"},{"start":5026.81,"end":5027.81,"text":"就認為說不管是律師事務所"},{"start":5027.81,"end":5028.81,"text":"會計事務所"},{"start":5028.81,"end":5030.81,"text":"基本上就不屬於公務員服務法"},{"start":5030.81,"end":5032.81,"text":"裡面所指的盈利事業"},{"start":5032.81,"end":5034.81,"text":"所以呢就算是這個"},{"start":5034.81,"end":5036.81,"text":"之前在政府機關"},{"start":5036.81,"end":5038.81,"text":"擔任相關主管機關的首長"},{"start":5038.81,"end":5039.81,"text":"他退下來然後去轉任"},{"start":5039.81,"end":5041.81,"text":"律師事務所的這個"},{"start":5041.81,"end":5043.81,"text":"擔任律師或者會計事務所"},{"start":5043.81,"end":5044.81,"text":"裡面的顧問等等"},{"start":5044.81,"end":5047.81,"text":"都不違反公務員服務法"},{"start":5047.81,"end":5048.81,"text":"裡面的旋轉門條款"},{"start":5048.81,"end":5050.81,"text":"可是我想這個問題"},{"start":5050.81,"end":5052.81,"text":"過去已經引發了很多的爭議"},{"start":5054.09,"end":5056.09,"text":"全序部是不是認為說"},{"start":5056.09,"end":5059.09,"text":"這個法應該要提出修法案"},{"start":5059.09,"end":5061.09,"text":"否則我覺得社會觀察很不好"},{"start":5061.09,"end":5063.09,"text":"對付稅署署長本來他是要去"},{"start":5063.09,"end":5066.09,"text":"督導要去查核這些會計事務所"},{"start":5066.09,"end":5070.09,"text":"因為會計師是擔任稅務的代理人"},{"start":5070.09,"end":5073.09,"text":"對 現在他從監督者"},{"start":5073.09,"end":5075.09,"text":"然後轉型變成被監督者"},{"start":5075.09,"end":5077.09,"text":"而且可能還幫著"},{"start":5077.09,"end":5079.09,"text":"本來要受監督這些人"},{"start":5079.09,"end":5081.09,"text":"然後去提供給他相關的意見"},{"start":5081.09,"end":5083.09,"text":"以後知道說這個付稅署"},{"start":5083.09,"end":5087.09,"text":"他去查稅可能會有什麼地方"},{"start":5087.09,"end":5089.09,"text":"你可以想辦法去迴避的"},{"start":5089.09,"end":5091.09,"text":"去規避的"},{"start":5092.28,"end":5094.28,"text":"這個問題我認為基本上"},{"start":5094.28,"end":5095.28,"text":"是應該積極處理"},{"start":5095.28,"end":5098.28,"text":"我還記得在去年黃國昌委員"},{"start":5098.28,"end":5099.28,"text":"也曾經有質詢過"},{"start":5099.28,"end":5102.28,"text":"國發基金的前殖民"},{"start":5102.28,"end":5104.28,"text":"也是辭職之後"},{"start":5104.28,"end":5106.28,"text":"立刻又轉任到一個"},{"start":5106.28,"end":5108.28,"text":"投資顧問公司"},{"start":5108.28,"end":5111.28,"text":"這其實也是跟旋轉門條款"},{"start":5111.28,"end":5112.28,"text":"是有關的"},{"start":5112.28,"end":5113.28,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":5113.28,"end":5116.28,"text":"所以上個會期我們就討論過以後"},{"start":5116.28,"end":5118.28,"text":"也在增訂一些規範"},{"start":5118.28,"end":5120.28,"text":"但是委員所指教的這個部分"},{"start":5120.28,"end":5121.28,"text":"確實是一個很大的議題"},{"start":5121.28,"end":5122.28,"text":"這不僅涉及你也知道"},{"start":5122.28,"end":5124.28,"text":"不會是只有會計師"},{"start":5124.28,"end":5125.28,"text":"會涉及到律師"},{"start":5125.28,"end":5127.28,"text":"會涉及到建築師"},{"start":5127.28,"end":5128.28,"text":"甚至醫師都可能"},{"start":5128.28,"end":5130.28,"text":"所以這個部分會涉及到更大議題"},{"start":5130.28,"end":5132.28,"text":"我們對旋轉門到底是"},{"start":5132.28,"end":5134.28,"text":"採取特定職務的禁止"},{"start":5134.28,"end":5136.28,"text":"還是特定行為的禁止"},{"start":5136.28,"end":5137.28,"text":"這過去社會也在討論"},{"start":5137.28,"end":5138.28,"text":"全局部也在討論過程"},{"start":5138.28,"end":5141.28,"text":"但是社會一直沒有太多的共識"},{"start":5141.28,"end":5144.28,"text":"所以我說這個議題是真的要繼續討論"},{"start":5144.28,"end":5146.28,"text":"但是我不能夠踴躍認識"},{"start":5146.28,"end":5149.28,"text":"這個事情要積極的去解決"},{"start":5149.28,"end":5150.28,"text":"我們該提出怎麼樣的修法"},{"start":5150.28,"end":5151.28,"text":"提出怎麼樣的修法"},{"start":5151.28,"end":5152.28,"text":"就提出修法"},{"start":5152.28,"end":5154.28,"text":"不管是你們未來採取的是"},{"start":5154.28,"end":5156.28,"text":"限制他的職務"},{"start":5156.28,"end":5158.28,"text":"以職務別來作為限制"},{"start":5158.28,"end":5160.28,"text":"或是以他的行為"},{"start":5160.28,"end":5163.28,"text":"任職的行為來做規範"},{"start":5163.28,"end":5167.28,"text":"這個總是要積極的去"},{"start":5167.28,"end":5170.28,"text":"透過修法去解決這個問題"},{"start":5170.28,"end":5171.28,"text":"否則的話"},{"start":5171.28,"end":5172.28,"text":"就是大家會認為說"},{"start":5172.28,"end":5173.28,"text":"好像"},{"start":5174.13,"end":5176.13,"text":"公務員服務法裡面的"},{"start":5176.13,"end":5177.13,"text":"旋轉門條款"},{"start":5177.13,"end":5180.13,"text":"只能夠去約束小小的公務員"},{"start":5180.13,"end":5181.13,"text":"但是對於真的"},{"start":5181.13,"end":5183.13,"text":"位高權重的首長"},{"start":5183.13,"end":5184.13,"text":"他離職之後"},{"start":5184.13,"end":5186.13,"text":"完全不受任何的規範拘束"},{"start":5186.13,"end":5187.13,"text":"這個部分的話"},{"start":5187.13,"end":5190.13,"text":"我想這個不是大家所樂見的"},{"start":5190.13,"end":5191.13,"text":"我也希望說全局部"},{"start":5191.13,"end":5193.13,"text":"接下來可以積極的去"},{"start":5193.13,"end":5194.13,"text":"針對這個議題"},{"start":5194.13,"end":5195.13,"text":"然後提案修法好嗎"},{"start":5195.86,"end":5197.86,"text":"再徵詢大家的一個意見"},{"start":5197.86,"end":5198.86,"text":"這個事情確實是比較複雜一點"},{"start":5198.86,"end":5200.86,"text":"當然情緒部不做的話"},{"start":5200.86,"end":5202.86,"text":"那本席就來提案做"},{"start":5202.86,"end":5203.86,"text":"這個事實上"},{"start":5203.86,"end":5204.86,"text":"我覺得這個問題"},{"start":5204.86,"end":5205.86,"text":"一定要去解決"},{"start":5205.86,"end":5207.86,"text":"現在這個民進黨政府離職"},{"start":5207.86,"end":5209.86,"text":"就是現任的政務官"},{"start":5209.86,"end":5211.86,"text":"常常都會引發"},{"start":5211.86,"end":5213.86,"text":"這種旋轉門的爭議"},{"start":5213.86,"end":5215.86,"text":"就是給外界印象很不好"},{"start":5215.86,"end":5216.86,"text":"我想這個旋轉門條款的"},{"start":5216.86,"end":5217.86,"text":"適用對象是非常非常廣泛的"},{"start":5217.86,"end":5219.86,"text":"我想不一定是政務人員"},{"start":5219.86,"end":5220.86,"text":"你也應該知道"},{"start":5220.86,"end":5221.86,"text":"更是剛剛專業人員"},{"start":5221.86,"end":5222.86,"text":"都可能會涉及到"},{"start":5222.86,"end":5223.86,"text":"是的沒錯"},{"start":5223.86,"end":5224.86,"text":"所以就是必須要把"},{"start":5224.86,"end":5225.86,"text":"要理清楚"},{"start":5225.86,"end":5226.86,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5228.29,"end":5229.29,"text":"謝謝文文"},{"start":5229.29,"end":5230.29,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":5239.63,"end":5241.63,"text":"好接下來我們有請"},{"start":5241.63,"end":5243.63,"text":"張雅琳委員巡檔"},{"start":5256.75,"end":5257.75,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":5257.75,"end":5258.75,"text":"我們先請國發基金"},{"start":5259.61,"end":5260.61,"text":"國發會的"},{"start":5262.25,"end":5263.25,"text":"執密的"},{"start":5263.25,"end":5264.25,"text":"國發會的"},{"start":5265.13,"end":5266.13,"text":"王"},{"start":5270.16,"end":5271.16,"text":"執密你好"},{"start":5271.16,"end":5272.16,"text":"我想請教一下"},{"start":5272.16,"end":5274.16,"text":"因為我剛剛聽到這個"},{"start":5274.16,"end":5275.16,"text":"陳昭之委員"},{"start":5275.16,"end":5276.16,"text":"有來問有關於"},{"start":5276.16,"end":5277.16,"text":"礦石智能獲得"},{"start":5277.16,"end":5278.16,"text":"國發基金投資的這個事情"},{"start":5278.16,"end":5279.16,"text":"我想我們還是必須"},{"start":5279.16,"end":5281.16,"text":"把事實來講清楚說明白"},{"start":5281.16,"end":5283.16,"text":"不能讓它變成是一個"},{"start":5283.16,"end":5285.16,"text":"政治攻擊或是造謠的場域"},{"start":5285.16,"end":5287.16,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":5287.16,"end":5290.16,"text":"針對這一筆2000萬的資金"},{"start":5290.16,"end":5292.16,"text":"據我所理解的"},{"start":5292.16,"end":5294.16,"text":"是國發基金取得公司"},{"start":5294.16,"end":5295.16,"text":"股權的投資"},{"start":5295.16,"end":5296.16,"text":"它不是補助案"},{"start":5296.16,"end":5297.16,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":5297.16,"end":5298.16,"text":"對"},{"start":5298.16,"end":5299.16,"text":"好"},{"start":5299.16,"end":5300.16,"text":"那公司是一公開的"},{"start":5300.16,"end":5303.16,"text":"創業天使的投資方案來申請"},{"start":5303.16,"end":5306.16,"text":"它應該是有經過外部專家"},{"start":5306.16,"end":5308.16,"text":"依既定的程序來審議"},{"start":5308.16,"end":5309.16,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":5309.16,"end":5310.16,"text":"然後有民間的投資人"},{"start":5310.16,"end":5311.16,"text":"共同來投資的對吧"},{"start":5311.16,"end":5312.16,"text":"是的"},{"start":5312.16,"end":5313.16,"text":"是的"},{"start":5313.16,"end":5314.16,"text":"所以外界所稱的"},{"start":5314.16,"end":5315.16,"text":"兩次的投資"},{"start":5315.16,"end":5317.16,"text":"其實是同一次的現金增資"},{"start":5317.16,"end":5319.16,"text":"國發基金其實根本"},{"start":5319.16,"end":5320.16,"text":"後續沒有再投入"},{"start":5320.16,"end":5321.16,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":5321.16,"end":5322.16,"text":"對"},{"start":5322.16,"end":5323.16,"text":"好"},{"start":5323.16,"end":5324.16,"text":"那再來就是說"},{"start":5324.16,"end":5325.16,"text":"根據公職人員"},{"start":5325.16,"end":5326.16,"text":"利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":5326.16,"end":5328.16,"text":"其實我們真正要檢驗的"},{"start":5328.16,"end":5329.16,"text":"應該是公職人員"},{"start":5329.16,"end":5330.16,"text":"有沒有介入"},{"start":5330.16,"end":5331.16,"text":"有沒有關說"},{"start":5331.16,"end":5332.16,"text":"有沒有影響"},{"start":5332.16,"end":5333.16,"text":"有沒有影響審查"},{"start":5333.16,"end":5335.16,"text":"那我這個部分"},{"start":5335.16,"end":5336.16,"text":"是不是可以再澄清一下"},{"start":5336.16,"end":5337.16,"text":"你們是不是有"},{"start":5337.16,"end":5338.16,"text":"符合相關的規定呢"},{"start":5338.16,"end":5339.16,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5339.16,"end":5341.16,"text":"國發基金在做投資的時候"},{"start":5341.16,"end":5344.16,"text":"都是有遵照這個公職人員"},{"start":5344.16,"end":5346.16,"text":"利益衝突迴避法的規定"},{"start":5346.16,"end":5347.16,"text":"來辦理"},{"start":5349.46,"end":5350.46,"text":"好 了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":5350.46,"end":5351.46,"text":"那我想其實"},{"start":5351.46,"end":5352.46,"text":"國發會也好"},{"start":5352.46,"end":5353.46,"text":"經濟部也好"},{"start":5353.46,"end":5355.46,"text":"其實都說了非常非常多次"},{"start":5355.46,"end":5356.46,"text":"我會認為說"},{"start":5356.46,"end":5357.46,"text":"既然已經說了"},{"start":5357.46,"end":5358.46,"text":"非常非常清楚的事情"},{"start":5358.46,"end":5359.46,"text":"不要一拿這個"},{"start":5359.46,"end":5361.46,"text":"想要抹黑的事情"},{"start":5361.46,"end":5362.46,"text":"一再的去造謠"},{"start":5362.46,"end":5363.46,"text":"只是為了自己的政治"},{"start":5363.46,"end":5365.46,"text":"來圖利自己"},{"start":5365.46,"end":5367.46,"text":"所以我會認為這個民眾黨"},{"start":5367.46,"end":5368.46,"text":"拜託請你們停止"},{"start":5368.46,"end":5370.46,"text":"這樣子的造謠跟抹黑"},{"start":5370.46,"end":5371.46,"text":"讓公務員們"},{"start":5371.46,"end":5372.46,"text":"讓我們的制度上面"},{"start":5372.46,"end":5373.46,"text":"可以好好做事"},{"start":5373.46,"end":5374.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5374.46,"end":5375.46,"text":"那接下來我要請這個"},{"start":5375.46,"end":5376.46,"text":"法務部"},{"start":5378.55,"end":5379.55,"text":"好 請政部長"},{"start":5382.36,"end":5383.36,"text":"好 部長我想請教一下"},{"start":5383.36,"end":5385.36,"text":"就是說我們來剪"},{"start":5385.36,"end":5386.36,"text":"這次這個食藥署"},{"start":5386.36,"end":5388.36,"text":"清查的30P有品呢"},{"start":5389.77,"end":5390.77,"text":"這個陸陸續續啦"},{"start":5390.77,"end":5391.77,"text":"總共是"},{"start":5391.77,"end":5393.77,"text":"一開始是不合格的是5P"},{"start":5393.77,"end":5395.77,"text":"然後後來又發現兩個"},{"start":5395.77,"end":5397.77,"text":"有品的P號不合格"},{"start":5397.77,"end":5399.77,"text":"所以總共是有7P問題有品"},{"start":5399.77,"end":5401.77,"text":"然後後來我們又持續的"},{"start":5401.77,"end":5403.77,"text":"去抽驗檢查"},{"start":5403.77,"end":5404.77,"text":"那目前呢"},{"start":5404.77,"end":5408.77,"text":"已經有下架2769公噸"},{"start":5408.77,"end":5410.77,"text":"然後還有5000多公噸的"},{"start":5410.77,"end":5411.77,"text":"有品採預防性下架"},{"start":5411.77,"end":5413.77,"text":"那也已經進入了刑事審查"},{"start":5413.77,"end":5414.77,"text":"7月9號的時候"},{"start":5414.77,"end":5415.77,"text":"我們已經去搜索中聯有品"},{"start":5415.77,"end":5416.77,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":5418.19,"end":5420.19,"text":"同時呢我們也跟這個"},{"start":5420.19,"end":5422.19,"text":"法院申請扣押中聯福壽福茂"},{"start":5422.19,"end":5424.19,"text":"跟泰山世間公司"},{"start":5424.19,"end":5426.19,"text":"名下的土地房屋等不動產"},{"start":5426.19,"end":5427.19,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5427.19,"end":5428.19,"text":"是"},{"start":5428.19,"end":5429.19,"text":"那我想請教一下"},{"start":5429.19,"end":5430.19,"text":"因為在6月29號"},{"start":5430.19,"end":5431.19,"text":"中聯公司受到了"},{"start":5431.19,"end":5434.19,"text":"第三方的這個檢驗結果"},{"start":5434.19,"end":5436.19,"text":"通報6月30號通報了"},{"start":5436.19,"end":5438.19,"text":"台中市政府"},{"start":5438.19,"end":5439.19,"text":"那可是我看到你們"},{"start":5439.19,"end":5440.19,"text":"法務部的報告"},{"start":5440.19,"end":5442.19,"text":"7月22號的報告"},{"start":5442.19,"end":5444.19,"text":"只有寫說7月2號"},{"start":5444.19,"end":5445.19,"text":"召開平台會議"},{"start":5445.19,"end":5448.19,"text":"7月9號才執行搜索"},{"start":5448.19,"end":5449.19,"text":"我想問一下"},{"start":5449.19,"end":5450.19,"text":"司法證據保全"},{"start":5450.19,"end":5452.19,"text":"有沒有所謂的黃金時間"},{"start":5452.19,"end":5453.19,"text":"因為如果我們拖的時間"},{"start":5453.19,"end":5455.19,"text":"比較久的時候"},{"start":5455.19,"end":5456.19,"text":"那是不是就有可能讓他"},{"start":5456.19,"end":5458.19,"text":"可以去整理三改"},{"start":5458.19,"end":5459.19,"text":"內部的一些資料呢"},{"start":5459.19,"end":5461.19,"text":"那我們目前到底有沒有一個明確"},{"start":5461.19,"end":5463.19,"text":"在重大食安事件"},{"start":5463.19,"end":5464.19,"text":"我們多久的時間"},{"start":5464.19,"end":5467.19,"text":"應該要即刻的來去進行搜索"},{"start":5468.34,"end":5470.34,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5470.34,"end":5471.34,"text":"那個搜索的話"},{"start":5471.34,"end":5472.34,"text":"搜索的話的確是"},{"start":5472.34,"end":5474.34,"text":"要做證據的一個"},{"start":5474.34,"end":5475.34,"text":"保全"},{"start":5475.34,"end":5476.34,"text":"搜集跟保全"},{"start":5476.34,"end":5478.34,"text":"那當然這個食安法沒有就"},{"start":5478.34,"end":5480.34,"text":"因為行政法是做行政管理"},{"start":5480.34,"end":5482.34,"text":"它如果違反一些像通報啦"},{"start":5482.34,"end":5484.34,"text":"等等的或者也會製造"},{"start":5484.34,"end":5487.34,"text":"這些的一些的刑責以外"},{"start":5487.34,"end":5488.34,"text":"它是一個犯罪行為"},{"start":5488.34,"end":5490.34,"text":"它不會就沒有就"},{"start":5490.34,"end":5491.34,"text":"怎麼要證據保全"},{"start":5491.34,"end":5492.34,"text":"做一個明確的規定"},{"start":5492.34,"end":5494.34,"text":"其實包括刑事訴訟也是一樣"},{"start":5494.34,"end":5497.34,"text":"因為這是每個案件的案情不同"},{"start":5497.34,"end":5499.34,"text":"那所以我們有搜索的必要"},{"start":5499.34,"end":5501.34,"text":"就會跟法院申請搜索"},{"start":5501.34,"end":5502.34,"text":"那我想這部分"},{"start":5502.34,"end":5503.34,"text":"當我們要去搜索"},{"start":5503.34,"end":5504.34,"text":"要跟法院申請搜索"},{"start":5504.34,"end":5506.34,"text":"但是我剛剛聽到你在前面的委員的質詢的時候"},{"start":5506.34,"end":5508.34,"text":"其實大家也都非常關切"},{"start":5508.34,"end":5510.34,"text":"因為可能到時候要做相關的民事求償"},{"start":5510.34,"end":5512.34,"text":"這個到時候可能就會求償無門"},{"start":5512.34,"end":5515.34,"text":"所以才會希望大家可以積極的去做"},{"start":5515.34,"end":5516.34,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":5516.34,"end":5517.34,"text":"所以現在目前就是說"},{"start":5517.34,"end":5519.34,"text":"我們並沒有一個明確的判斷標準"},{"start":5519.34,"end":5520.34,"text":"是在幾個小時之內"},{"start":5520.34,"end":5522.34,"text":"這個按照那個"},{"start":5522.34,"end":5523.34,"text":"我想那個我們證據"},{"start":5523.34,"end":5524.34,"text":"一定要清搜索"},{"start":5524.34,"end":5526.34,"text":"一定要想到有的一個證據資料"},{"start":5526.34,"end":5528.34,"text":"去證明搜索的必要"},{"start":5528.34,"end":5529.34,"text":"那我們要扣什麼東西"},{"start":5529.34,"end":5531.34,"text":"所以法院才有可能會核准嘛"},{"start":5531.34,"end":5532.34,"text":"才會准票"},{"start":5532.34,"end":5533.34,"text":"因為是另撞的嘛"},{"start":5533.34,"end":5535.34,"text":"那這部分我想這件"},{"start":5535.34,"end":5537.34,"text":"7月2號我們有啟動平台"},{"start":5537.34,"end":5538.34,"text":"7月3號立案"},{"start":5538.34,"end":5540.34,"text":"我們7月9號就去搜第一次了"},{"start":5540.34,"end":5542.34,"text":"其實7月6號我們有去"},{"start":5542.34,"end":5543.34,"text":"有專案小組的"},{"start":5543.34,"end":5545.34,"text":"有去那個廠裡面"},{"start":5545.34,"end":5548.34,"text":"到廠裡面去調取相關資料"},{"start":5548.34,"end":5550.34,"text":"所以7月6號已經去調取相關資料"},{"start":5550.34,"end":5553.34,"text":"但是我想這個調查相關資料"},{"start":5553.34,"end":5555.34,"text":"我想要不要做一個"},{"start":5555.34,"end":5557.34,"text":"一個做怎麼樣的一個運用"},{"start":5557.34,"end":5559.34,"text":"我想檢察官會依照他們的"},{"start":5559.34,"end":5561.34,"text":"偵查策略來做一個規劃"},{"start":5561.34,"end":5564.34,"text":"所以我們昨天也再搜索第二次了"},{"start":5564.34,"end":5565.34,"text":"好 了解"},{"start":5565.34,"end":5566.34,"text":"那我想提醒一下"},{"start":5566.34,"end":5568.34,"text":"就是說我們的食安法49條"},{"start":5568.34,"end":5570.34,"text":"同時是規範了故意跟過失"},{"start":5570.34,"end":5572.34,"text":"那這兩個的刑責差距"},{"start":5572.34,"end":5573.34,"text":"其實是非常的大"},{"start":5573.34,"end":5575.34,"text":"那現在我們必須要去釐清的"},{"start":5575.34,"end":5576.34,"text":"不是只有油品有沒有超標"},{"start":5576.34,"end":5579.34,"text":"而是要去查業者知道了之後"},{"start":5579.34,"end":5581.34,"text":"他到底怎麼做"},{"start":5581.34,"end":5583.34,"text":"因為如果他是尚未確認原因"},{"start":5583.34,"end":5585.34,"text":"所以他還是在合理的期間去復驗"},{"start":5585.34,"end":5587.34,"text":"那他可能涉及的是過失嘛"},{"start":5587.34,"end":5588.34,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5588.34,"end":5589.34,"text":"可是如果他是已經知道"},{"start":5589.34,"end":5591.34,"text":"油品有問題"},{"start":5591.34,"end":5593.34,"text":"可是他還出貨去販售"},{"start":5593.34,"end":5595.34,"text":"那就應該不是過失了"},{"start":5595.34,"end":5598.34,"text":"所以他應該是涉及故意犯罪"},{"start":5598.34,"end":5600.34,"text":"所以我想請問一下部長就是說"},{"start":5600.34,"end":5602.34,"text":"我們是不是會就這個方面"},{"start":5602.34,"end":5604.34,"text":"來去做調查"},{"start":5604.34,"end":5606.34,"text":"這個我想檢察官會針對這個"},{"start":5606.34,"end":5607.34,"text":"因為的確委員關係這問題"},{"start":5607.34,"end":5611.34,"text":"也是檢察官要努力去積極去蒐證的"},{"start":5611.34,"end":5613.34,"text":"因為的確食安法是規定"},{"start":5613.34,"end":5616.34,"text":"有違反的諮詢"},{"start":5616.34,"end":5619.34,"text":"應該是第七條第五項吧"},{"start":5619.34,"end":5621.34,"text":"我忘了那個確定的條文"},{"start":5621.34,"end":5623.34,"text":"它裡面有諮詢"},{"start":5623.34,"end":5626.34,"text":"它就業者就有通報的義務了"},{"start":5626.34,"end":5628.34,"text":"通報的義務"},{"start":5628.34,"end":5629.34,"text":"那這部分當然如果說"},{"start":5629.34,"end":5633.34,"text":"有這樣的一個違反通報的義務"},{"start":5633.34,"end":5635.34,"text":"那還在出貨"},{"start":5635.34,"end":5637.34,"text":"那可能會是不是故意犯"},{"start":5637.34,"end":5639.34,"text":"我想檢察官會去積極的"},{"start":5639.34,"end":5642.34,"text":"積極的去蒐集事件來做一個試責認定"},{"start":5642.34,"end":5644.34,"text":"那還有第三個也是一個提醒"},{"start":5644.34,"end":5647.34,"text":"就是說他們因為後來又查到有漏報"},{"start":5647.34,"end":5648.34,"text":"原本是29批"},{"start":5648.34,"end":5651.34,"text":"後來又發現其實是30批"},{"start":5651.34,"end":5653.34,"text":"所以呢因為我看你們的報告"},{"start":5653.34,"end":5655.34,"text":"只有提到是否有延遲通報"},{"start":5655.34,"end":5657.34,"text":"但其實已經不是延遲通報"},{"start":5657.34,"end":5660.34,"text":"它還有漏報、少報、假報的問題"},{"start":5660.34,"end":5662.34,"text":"所以這個是不是可以去調查"},{"start":5662.34,"end":5664.34,"text":"如果明知業者是資料不實"},{"start":5664.34,"end":5665.34,"text":"可是還是提供給主管機關"},{"start":5665.34,"end":5667.34,"text":"或者是下游的業者"},{"start":5667.34,"end":5670.34,"text":"是否涉及刑法的登載不實之罪"},{"start":5670.34,"end":5671.34,"text":"刑事不實文書"},{"start":5671.34,"end":5672.34,"text":"甚至是詐欺等等"},{"start":5672.34,"end":5675.34,"text":"是否都已經納入了我們檢察官調查的範圍呢"},{"start":5675.34,"end":5677.34,"text":"這個一定是會納入"},{"start":5677.34,"end":5678.34,"text":"我想檢察官在偵查犯罪"},{"start":5678.34,"end":5680.34,"text":"他會釐清各項的一個犯罪行為"},{"start":5680.34,"end":5682.34,"text":"就像我們關心的"},{"start":5682.34,"end":5684.34,"text":"這是故意蓋牌嘛"},{"start":5684.34,"end":5685.34,"text":"我覺得明知有"},{"start":5685.34,"end":5688.34,"text":"有這個疑慮或者是已經確定有了"},{"start":5688.34,"end":5689.34,"text":"我還在蓋牌不講"},{"start":5689.34,"end":5691.34,"text":"然後再出貨"},{"start":5691.34,"end":5694.34,"text":"那這樣我想這部分檢察官會全力來偵辦"},{"start":5694.34,"end":5695.34,"text":"如果有的話"},{"start":5695.34,"end":5699.34,"text":"我們依照這個犯罪事實來起訴求刑"},{"start":5699.34,"end":5700.34,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5700.34,"end":5702.34,"text":"那就是接下來我請次長"},{"start":5704.74,"end":5705.74,"text":"好 請您次長"},{"start":5708.56,"end":5709.56,"text":"委員早"},{"start":5709.56,"end":5710.56,"text":"好 次長早"},{"start":5710.56,"end":5711.56,"text":"因為我想這個是"},{"start":5711.56,"end":5714.56,"text":"這個草案今天可能會通過行政院院會"},{"start":5714.56,"end":5715.56,"text":"那這就會是我們十年來"},{"start":5715.56,"end":5719.56,"text":"再一次的去針對食安進行一個新的規範"},{"start":5719.56,"end":5721.56,"text":"那這一次會增加源頭管理的次數"},{"start":5721.56,"end":5723.56,"text":"以及一定的規模的業者"},{"start":5723.56,"end":5725.56,"text":"要自己設置這個實驗室"},{"start":5725.56,"end":5727.56,"text":"那這個勢必要跟業者學校"},{"start":5727.56,"end":5729.56,"text":"還有市場跟民眾來做好好的溝通"},{"start":5729.56,"end":5731.56,"text":"那我自己今天也會開座談會"},{"start":5731.56,"end":5733.56,"text":"來邀請我們的家長"},{"start":5733.56,"end":5734.56,"text":"還有相關的團體"},{"start":5734.56,"end":5736.56,"text":"還有這個醫師"},{"start":5736.56,"end":5738.56,"text":"食安專家來針對這個部分來做討論"},{"start":5738.56,"end":5740.56,"text":"那我現在想要針對幾個問題"},{"start":5740.56,"end":5741.56,"text":"來跟次長做討論"},{"start":5741.56,"end":5744.56,"text":"就是我們以預犯團的食安把關"},{"start":5744.56,"end":5746.56,"text":"我們以現在據我所知"},{"start":5746.56,"end":5748.56,"text":"我們現在從原料到門市上架"},{"start":5748.56,"end":5750.56,"text":"大概是五成"},{"start":5750.56,"end":5752.56,"text":"流程上就是從原料進貨"},{"start":5752.56,"end":5755.56,"text":"還有HACCP成品放行"},{"start":5755.56,"end":5758.56,"text":"以及送到最後的物流跟門市的時候"},{"start":5758.56,"end":5760.56,"text":"目前基本上就是有五成"},{"start":5760.56,"end":5762.56,"text":"那如果加上政府的抽驗"},{"start":5762.56,"end":5764.56,"text":"現在是六成 對嗎"},{"start":5764.97,"end":5766.97,"text":"如果是以委員這邊提到"},{"start":5766.97,"end":5768.97,"text":"我們有這些不同層次的把關"},{"start":5768.97,"end":5770.97,"text":"當然不同的食品或者是原料"},{"start":5770.97,"end":5772.97,"text":"它還有一些不同的標準"},{"start":5772.97,"end":5773.97,"text":"沒錯 同意"},{"start":5773.97,"end":5774.97,"text":"那我現在就是以預犯團"},{"start":5774.97,"end":5775.97,"text":"我想要比較的就是說"},{"start":5775.97,"end":5777.97,"text":"修法前跟修法後"},{"start":5777.97,"end":5779.97,"text":"它到底會有什麼樣子的改變"},{"start":5779.97,"end":5782.97,"text":"那再來現在如果是根據這個草案的話"},{"start":5782.97,"end":5784.97,"text":"就是針對於有品的部分"},{"start":5784.97,"end":5786.97,"text":"每一批都要自主送驗"},{"start":5786.97,"end":5788.97,"text":"那第一層下游的廠商也要從"},{"start":5788.97,"end":5790.97,"text":"現在的半年一次"},{"start":5790.97,"end":5792.97,"text":"提高成美劑檢驗 對嗎"},{"start":5792.97,"end":5795.97,"text":"所以就會增加大概六到七成的關卡 是嗎"},{"start":5795.97,"end":5796.97,"text":"我們現在是這樣就是說"},{"start":5796.97,"end":5799.97,"text":"前面這邊本來在原來的食安法裡面"},{"start":5799.97,"end":5801.97,"text":"像這些上游的食品業者 游資廠"},{"start":5801.97,"end":5802.97,"text":"其實他們也是一樣"},{"start":5802.97,"end":5804.97,"text":"他們之前就是像委員這邊提到"},{"start":5804.97,"end":5806.97,"text":"半年他自己要自主檢驗一次"},{"start":5806.97,"end":5808.97,"text":"那我們現在在新的修法裡面"},{"start":5808.97,"end":5809.97,"text":"還會再增加就是說"},{"start":5809.97,"end":5811.97,"text":"符合一定類別及規模者"},{"start":5811.97,"end":5813.97,"text":"對 譬如說像這一次游子"},{"start":5813.97,"end":5814.97,"text":"因為它的"},{"start":5814.97,"end":5816.97,"text":"它大概就只有幾家公司在做"},{"start":5816.97,"end":5818.97,"text":"然後這幾家它的市占都非常的多"},{"start":5818.97,"end":5819.97,"text":"這種大型的游資廠"},{"start":5819.97,"end":5820.97,"text":"那第一個部分"},{"start":5820.97,"end":5821.97,"text":"我們會要求他們自己"},{"start":5821.97,"end":5823.97,"text":"在一定規模之上"},{"start":5823.97,"end":5825.97,"text":"他要去建立他自己的實驗室"},{"start":5825.97,"end":5827.97,"text":"第二個部分這個實驗室要經過認證"},{"start":5827.97,"end":5828.97,"text":"第三個就是說"},{"start":5828.97,"end":5831.97,"text":"像這一次遇到就是他們有一些送驗之後"},{"start":5831.97,"end":5832.97,"text":"沒有及時通報"},{"start":5832.97,"end":5834.97,"text":"所以我們在新的修法裡面"},{"start":5834.97,"end":5835.97,"text":"他的這個實驗室"},{"start":5835.97,"end":5837.97,"text":"不論是這個廠商"},{"start":5837.97,"end":5839.97,"text":"他被我們要求要自己做檢驗"},{"start":5839.97,"end":5841.97,"text":"同時當廠商發現他的報告有問題"},{"start":5841.97,"end":5843.97,"text":"或者是他委託的"},{"start":5843.97,"end":5844.97,"text":"不論他自己的實驗室"},{"start":5844.97,"end":5847.97,"text":"或他委託第三方的這個驗證機構"},{"start":5847.97,"end":5849.97,"text":"他發現有問題他都要通報"},{"start":5849.97,"end":5850.97,"text":"那另外一個部分就是"},{"start":5850.97,"end":5852.97,"text":"我們過去在食安法裡面有提到"},{"start":5852.97,"end":5854.97,"text":"地方的主管機構他有應"},{"start":5854.97,"end":5855.97,"text":"應該就得啦他可以去做"},{"start":5855.97,"end":5857.97,"text":"那我們現在會加強就是說"},{"start":5857.97,"end":5858.97,"text":"某一些像這一類的"},{"start":5858.97,"end":5859.97,"text":"他一旦有問題"},{"start":5859.97,"end":5861.97,"text":"影響會全國性的這樣子的廠商"},{"start":5861.97,"end":5862.97,"text":"我們會要求要應"},{"start":5862.97,"end":5865.97,"text":"他要增加他的相關的檢驗品質"},{"start":5865.97,"end":5867.97,"text":"訂上去他必須要去做檢驗"},{"start":5867.97,"end":5868.97,"text":"好謝謝次長的回答"},{"start":5868.97,"end":5869.97,"text":"因為我想就是我們"},{"start":5869.97,"end":5872.97,"text":"就算我們增加檢驗的次數"},{"start":5872.97,"end":5875.97,"text":"如果我們沒有去強化這些通報的機制"},{"start":5875.97,"end":5877.97,"text":"其實這個東西"},{"start":5877.97,"end":5878.97,"text":"就算你檢驗了"},{"start":5878.97,"end":5879.97,"text":"他沒有送出來"},{"start":5879.97,"end":5880.97,"text":"我們還是不會知道"},{"start":5880.97,"end":5884.97,"text":"而且地方政府的平時的查核頻率"},{"start":5884.97,"end":5887.97,"text":"抽驗項目如果沒有及早的去做"},{"start":5887.97,"end":5888.97,"text":"規律的去做"},{"start":5888.97,"end":5890.97,"text":"其實我們還是沒有去"},{"start":5890.97,"end":5892.97,"text":"沒有辦法去解決這個問題"},{"start":5892.97,"end":5894.97,"text":"所以剛剛我聽到次長的回覆就是說"},{"start":5894.97,"end":5896.97,"text":"在這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":5896.97,"end":5897.97,"text":"我們會針對這些項目"},{"start":5897.97,"end":5899.97,"text":"這次的一些漏洞上面"},{"start":5899.97,"end":5901.97,"text":"非常明確的去訂定"},{"start":5901.97,"end":5903.97,"text":"那接下來我就想要請教次長"},{"start":5903.97,"end":5904.97,"text":"因為我們剛剛講的"},{"start":5904.97,"end":5906.97,"text":"就是24小時要通報"},{"start":5906.97,"end":5907.97,"text":"可是這24小時通報"},{"start":5907.97,"end":5909.97,"text":"到底是誰通報"},{"start":5909.97,"end":5911.97,"text":"是因為你們有講說是雙軌制"},{"start":5911.97,"end":5912.97,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5912.97,"end":5913.97,"text":"好那所以"},{"start":5913.97,"end":5914.97,"text":"檢驗實驗室"},{"start":5914.97,"end":5916.97,"text":"對那首先第一個問題想要先請教"},{"start":5916.97,"end":5919.97,"text":"24小時是從什麼時間開始起算"},{"start":5919.97,"end":5920.97,"text":"是實驗室"},{"start":5920.97,"end":5921.97,"text":"報告知心"},{"start":5921.97,"end":5923.97,"text":"是實驗室"},{"start":5923.97,"end":5924.97,"text":"等一下我先釐清一下"},{"start":5924.97,"end":5925.97,"text":"因為會有幾個斷點"},{"start":5925.97,"end":5926.97,"text":"我想先釐清"},{"start":5926.97,"end":5928.97,"text":"是實驗室的儀器發現有問題"},{"start":5928.97,"end":5930.97,"text":"還是實驗室內部完成複合"},{"start":5930.97,"end":5931.97,"text":"還是說"},{"start":5931.97,"end":5934.97,"text":"他的正式的檢驗報告出具的時候"},{"start":5934.97,"end":5935.97,"text":"到底在哪一個時間點"},{"start":5935.97,"end":5936.97,"text":"開始起算24小時"},{"start":5936.97,"end":5937.97,"text":"我覺得這個時間點"},{"start":5937.97,"end":5938.97,"text":"要寫得非常非常明確"},{"start":5938.97,"end":5939.97,"text":"不然大家就會說"},{"start":5939.97,"end":5941.97,"text":"我的認定是這個時間之後"},{"start":5941.97,"end":5942.97,"text":"才開始算24小時"},{"start":5942.97,"end":5944.97,"text":"這樣到時候就是揮不完"},{"start":5944.97,"end":5945.97,"text":"所以我們是不是可以"},{"start":5945.97,"end":5946.97,"text":"在這個24小時上面"},{"start":5946.97,"end":5949.97,"text":"非常明確的訂定出來"},{"start":5949.97,"end":5951.97,"text":"我們接下來就是會在那個規定裡面"},{"start":5951.97,"end":5953.97,"text":"寫到他出去報告"},{"start":5953.97,"end":5954.97,"text":"等於他蓋了一張"},{"start":5954.97,"end":5955.97,"text":"正式這個報告出具"},{"start":5955.97,"end":5956.97,"text":"他就要出來"},{"start":5956.97,"end":5957.97,"text":"這一次我們發現"},{"start":5957.97,"end":5958.97,"text":"就是相關的廠商"},{"start":5958.97,"end":5959.97,"text":"他們有延遲通報"},{"start":5959.97,"end":5961.97,"text":"也是從他什麼時候送驗"},{"start":5961.97,"end":5962.97,"text":"什麼時候報告出來"},{"start":5962.97,"end":5964.97,"text":"發現他延遲非常多天"},{"start":5964.97,"end":5965.97,"text":"對"},{"start":5965.97,"end":5966.97,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":5966.97,"end":5967.97,"text":"就會接下來"},{"start":5967.97,"end":5968.97,"text":"應該就是會寫到規定裡"},{"start":5968.97,"end":5969.97,"text":"那我也希望就是說"},{"start":5969.97,"end":5971.97,"text":"因為在這個正式的報告"},{"start":5971.97,"end":5973.97,"text":"檢驗出具之後"},{"start":5973.97,"end":5975.97,"text":"他都應該要盡快的告訴大家"},{"start":5975.97,"end":5976.97,"text":"如果有問題的話"},{"start":5976.97,"end":5979.97,"text":"他會採取哪一些停產封存"},{"start":5979.97,"end":5981.97,"text":"甚至是停止出貨的措施"},{"start":5981.97,"end":5982.97,"text":"這個部分是不是"},{"start":5982.97,"end":5983.97,"text":"也可以去要求呢"},{"start":5983.97,"end":5985.97,"text":"其實原來在食安法裡面就有"},{"start":5985.97,"end":5986.97,"text":"當他發現他的這一個"},{"start":5986.97,"end":5989.97,"text":"原來食安法第七條的第五項"},{"start":5989.97,"end":5990.97,"text":"食品業者發現產品"},{"start":5990.97,"end":5992.97,"text":"有危害衛生安全之虞"},{"start":5992.97,"end":5993.97,"text":"他就應該主動"},{"start":5993.97,"end":5995.97,"text":"停止製造加工販賣"},{"start":5995.97,"end":5996.97,"text":"跟辦理回收"},{"start":5996.97,"end":5997.97,"text":"並且通報"},{"start":5997.97,"end":5998.97,"text":"直轄縣市主管機關"},{"start":5998.97,"end":5999.97,"text":"那這一次我們會把時間"},{"start":5999.97,"end":6000.97,"text":"更訂得更清楚一點"},{"start":6000.97,"end":6001.97,"text":"好的好"},{"start":6001.97,"end":6002.97,"text":"那再來就是雙軌通報"},{"start":6002.97,"end":6003.97,"text":"我也想要再釐清喔"},{"start":6003.97,"end":6004.97,"text":"因為我們講雙軌通報"},{"start":6004.97,"end":6005.97,"text":"可能就會有人覺得說"},{"start":6005.97,"end":6006.97,"text":"那個那沒關係"},{"start":6006.97,"end":6008.97,"text":"反正實驗室應該會通報"},{"start":6008.97,"end":6009.97,"text":"業者可能就沒有通報"},{"start":6009.97,"end":6010.97,"text":"所以我覺得這部分"},{"start":6010.97,"end":6011.97,"text":"也要去強化"},{"start":6011.97,"end":6012.97,"text":"兩邊都要有責任"},{"start":6012.97,"end":6015.97,"text":"兩邊都必須付起這個工作"},{"start":6015.97,"end":6016.97,"text":"不然就會變成是"},{"start":6016.97,"end":6017.97,"text":"大家就說沒關係"},{"start":6017.97,"end":6018.97,"text":"他有通報"},{"start":6018.97,"end":6019.97,"text":"他沒有通報是他的問題"},{"start":6019.97,"end":6020.97,"text":"我覺得這個是絕對不可以"},{"start":6020.97,"end":6021.97,"text":"其實因為兩邊"},{"start":6021.97,"end":6022.97,"text":"都有要求他們要通報"},{"start":6022.97,"end":6023.97,"text":"所以反而變成是"},{"start":6023.97,"end":6024.97,"text":"任何一方要是有延遲"},{"start":6024.97,"end":6025.97,"text":"他們會有很大的壓力"},{"start":6025.97,"end":6026.97,"text":"對這個東西"},{"start":6026.97,"end":6027.97,"text":"那再來就是"},{"start":6027.97,"end":6028.97,"text":"還有一個就是"},{"start":6028.97,"end":6029.97,"text":"非追不可的問題"},{"start":6029.97,"end":6030.97,"text":"我也想要請教就是說"},{"start":6030.97,"end":6031.97,"text":"因為中聯有品"},{"start":6031.97,"end":6032.97,"text":"原本我們查到是29批嘛"},{"start":6032.97,"end":6034.97,"text":"那第30批是因為宜蘭"},{"start":6034.97,"end":6036.97,"text":"縣政府衛生單位"},{"start":6036.97,"end":6037.97,"text":"他們反向追查的時候"},{"start":6037.97,"end":6040.97,"text":"才發現其實還有一批"},{"start":6040.97,"end":6042.97,"text":"這個314-115-001的"},{"start":6042.97,"end":6043.97,"text":"這個有品"},{"start":6043.97,"end":6045.97,"text":"並沒有列入原本的這個"},{"start":6048.05,"end":6049.05,"text":"29批裡面"},{"start":6049.05,"end":6050.05,"text":"對有品清測"},{"start":6050.05,"end":6051.05,"text":"所以最後才會變成"},{"start":6051.05,"end":6053.05,"text":"29 30批這樣子"},{"start":6053.05,"end":6054.05,"text":"然後後來因為他們沒有申報"},{"start":6054.05,"end":6055.05,"text":"所以食藥署"},{"start":6055.05,"end":6056.05,"text":"又再去罰了他們"},{"start":6056.05,"end":6057.05,"text":"所以總共現在也是"},{"start":6057.05,"end":6058.05,"text":"罰了這個"},{"start":6058.05,"end":6059.05,"text":"累計應該是已經"},{"start":6059.05,"end":6062.05,"text":"裁罰了1億7千120萬嘛"},{"start":6062.05,"end":6063.05,"text":"那我想要問一下"},{"start":6063.05,"end":6064.05,"text":"就是第30批"},{"start":6064.05,"end":6065.05,"text":"在非追不可裡面"},{"start":6065.05,"end":6066.05,"text":"就是這個系統裡面"},{"start":6066.05,"end":6068.05,"text":"我們到底有沒有資料"},{"start":6068.05,"end":6069.05,"text":"有沒有登錄"},{"start":6069.05,"end":6071.05,"text":"那什麼時間登錄的"},{"start":6071.05,"end":6072.05,"text":"那內容又包含什麼"},{"start":6072.05,"end":6074.05,"text":"我們到底有沒有掌握到"},{"start":6074.05,"end":6075.05,"text":"報告委員其實這個事情"},{"start":6075.05,"end":6077.05,"text":"我們當時對於地方"},{"start":6077.05,"end":6078.05,"text":"就是對於這個廠商"},{"start":6078.05,"end":6079.05,"text":"對中聯我們要求"},{"start":6079.05,"end":6080.05,"text":"就是4到6月的"},{"start":6080.05,"end":6082.05,"text":"所有批次要請他報上來"},{"start":6082.05,"end":6083.05,"text":"那4到6月的"},{"start":6083.05,"end":6084.05,"text":"所有批次在報的時候"},{"start":6084.05,"end":6085.05,"text":"其實他們在"},{"start":6085.05,"end":6087.05,"text":"等於說他後來發現"},{"start":6087.05,"end":6089.05,"text":"他漏報了0401這一批"},{"start":6089.05,"end":6090.05,"text":"可是我們在"},{"start":6090.05,"end":6091.05,"text":"我們的非追這一邊"},{"start":6091.05,"end":6092.05,"text":"其實我們有發現"},{"start":6092.05,"end":6094.05,"text":"就是0629這一批"},{"start":6094.05,"end":6095.05,"text":"所以其實他們"},{"start":6095.05,"end":6097.05,"text":"他們事實上當時"},{"start":6097.05,"end":6098.05,"text":"我們在我們這裡面"},{"start":6098.05,"end":6100.05,"text":"廠商事實上是"},{"start":6100.05,"end":6101.05,"text":"後來我們發現"},{"start":6101.05,"end":6102.05,"text":"他們漏報0401"},{"start":6102.05,"end":6103.05,"text":"那我們那時候有漏到"},{"start":6103.05,"end":6104.05,"text":"0630那一批"},{"start":6104.05,"end":6105.05,"text":"對"},{"start":6105.05,"end":6106.05,"text":"好所以就看起來"},{"start":6106.05,"end":6107.05,"text":"就會是上下游廠商"},{"start":6107.05,"end":6109.05,"text":"我們大家掌握的資訊"},{"start":6109.05,"end":6110.05,"text":"是不一致的嘛"},{"start":6110.05,"end":6111.05,"text":"對不對"},{"start":6111.05,"end":6112.05,"text":"我們其實在非追"},{"start":6112.05,"end":6113.05,"text":"也跟委員報告一下"},{"start":6113.05,"end":6114.05,"text":"就是說我們在非追的系統"},{"start":6114.05,"end":6115.05,"text":"過去事實上"},{"start":6115.05,"end":6116.05,"text":"就是從廠商這邊"},{"start":6116.05,"end":6117.05,"text":"然後出貨到"},{"start":6117.05,"end":6118.05,"text":"比方說這一次"},{"start":6118.05,"end":6120.05,"text":"他到這個泰山浮茂浮獸"},{"start":6120.05,"end":6121.05,"text":"這邊我們有非追的部分"},{"start":6121.05,"end":6122.05,"text":"那我們這一次修法"},{"start":6122.05,"end":6124.05,"text":"我們後續會再對於"},{"start":6124.05,"end":6125.05,"text":"我們後續再往下追"},{"start":6125.05,"end":6126.05,"text":"就是說比方說"},{"start":6126.05,"end":6127.05,"text":"以這一次來講"},{"start":6127.05,"end":6128.05,"text":"從泰山浮茂浮獸"},{"start":6128.05,"end":6130.05,"text":"他再往下的這個部分"},{"start":6130.05,"end":6131.05,"text":"我們會再往下撈"},{"start":6131.05,"end":6132.05,"text":"好因為我想這邊"},{"start":6132.05,"end":6133.05,"text":"也是提供一個參考"},{"start":6133.05,"end":6134.05,"text":"然後"},{"start":6134.43,"end":6135.43,"text":"因為我自己"},{"start":6135.43,"end":6137.43,"text":"之前也曾經待過食品業"},{"start":6137.43,"end":6138.43,"text":"待了四年"},{"start":6138.43,"end":6139.43,"text":"我在外鄉的食品業公司"},{"start":6139.43,"end":6140.43,"text":"所以我也希望"},{"start":6140.43,"end":6141.43,"text":"可以提供美國的制度"},{"start":6141.43,"end":6142.43,"text":"作為參考就是說"},{"start":6142.43,"end":6143.43,"text":"這個美國制度裡面"},{"start":6143.43,"end":6144.43,"text":"它有一個叫"},{"start":6144.43,"end":6145.43,"text":"Traceability的"},{"start":6145.43,"end":6146.43,"text":"這個追溯批號的制度"},{"start":6146.43,"end":6147.43,"text":"就是說食品"},{"start":6147.43,"end":6148.43,"text":"在首次包裝之後"},{"start":6148.43,"end":6150.43,"text":"接收或經過加工混合"},{"start":6150.43,"end":6151.43,"text":"重新包裝之後"},{"start":6151.43,"end":6153.43,"text":"每一次的轉換都必須建立"},{"start":6153.43,"end":6156.43,"text":"所謂的或延續的批號"},{"start":6156.43,"end":6157.43,"text":"那該批號必須"},{"start":6157.43,"end":6158.43,"text":"跟相關的生產"},{"start":6158.43,"end":6159.43,"text":"收貨出貨資料"},{"start":6159.43,"end":6160.43,"text":"去做一些連結"},{"start":6160.43,"end":6161.43,"text":"那所以它不會"},{"start":6161.43,"end":6162.43,"text":"只有製造商"},{"start":6162.43,"end":6164.43,"text":"保存一張總清冊"},{"start":6165.7,"end":6166.7,"text":"這個出供應鏈的"},{"start":6166.7,"end":6167.7,"text":"不同業者"},{"start":6167.7,"end":6168.7,"text":"分別會針對"},{"start":6168.7,"end":6169.7,"text":"自己所發生的事件"},{"start":6169.7,"end":6170.7,"text":"來保存相關的資料"},{"start":6170.7,"end":6171.7,"text":"所以上下游的資料"},{"start":6171.7,"end":6172.7,"text":"就可以去對齊"},{"start":6172.7,"end":6173.7,"text":"那我們就比較能夠"},{"start":6173.7,"end":6175.7,"text":"去做援啦真的"},{"start":6175.7,"end":6177.7,"text":"那所以這次的修法上面"},{"start":6177.7,"end":6178.7,"text":"是不是也會針對"},{"start":6178.7,"end":6179.7,"text":"這個部分來去做調整"},{"start":6179.7,"end":6180.7,"text":"謝謝委員喔"},{"start":6180.7,"end":6181.7,"text":"這個部分其實就在"},{"start":6181.7,"end":6182.7,"text":"我們的未來的一些辦法"},{"start":6182.7,"end":6183.7,"text":"因為這是除了"},{"start":6183.7,"end":6184.7,"text":"修母法之外"},{"start":6184.7,"end":6185.7,"text":"我們未來在一些"},{"start":6185.7,"end":6186.7,"text":"執法規會去做修正"},{"start":6186.7,"end":6187.7,"text":"那其中一個部分"},{"start":6187.7,"end":6188.7,"text":"就是有點類似委員"},{"start":6188.7,"end":6189.7,"text":"這樣講的"},{"start":6189.7,"end":6190.7,"text":"當然因為我們的食品"},{"start":6190.7,"end":6191.7,"text":"種類非常非常非常的多"},{"start":6191.7,"end":6192.7,"text":"大廠小廠非常多種"},{"start":6192.7,"end":6193.7,"text":"但是我們會針對"},{"start":6193.7,"end":6194.7,"text":"像這樣子"},{"start":6194.7,"end":6195.7,"text":"比較大型的產業"},{"start":6195.7,"end":6196.7,"text":"或者是影響甚至是"},{"start":6196.7,"end":6198.7,"text":"全國性的產業"},{"start":6198.7,"end":6199.7,"text":"那我們正在規劃"},{"start":6199.7,"end":6200.7,"text":"看能不能讓他"},{"start":6200.7,"end":6201.7,"text":"從上游一路下去的"},{"start":6201.7,"end":6202.7,"text":"那個整個編碼"},{"start":6202.7,"end":6203.7,"text":"可以串上來"},{"start":6203.7,"end":6204.7,"text":"就像剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":6204.7,"end":6205.7,"text":"這樣的例子"},{"start":6205.7,"end":6206.7,"text":"我理解喔就是說"},{"start":6206.7,"end":6207.7,"text":"因為台灣其實有很多的"},{"start":6207.7,"end":6208.7,"text":"中小型的製造商"},{"start":6208.7,"end":6209.7,"text":"食品製造商"},{"start":6209.7,"end":6210.7,"text":"那我會認為說"},{"start":6210.7,"end":6211.7,"text":"針對於我們應該"},{"start":6211.7,"end":6212.7,"text":"要界定出來"},{"start":6212.7,"end":6213.7,"text":"哪些屬於高風險"},{"start":6213.7,"end":6214.7,"text":"影響面非常非常大的"},{"start":6214.7,"end":6215.7,"text":"它一定要具備"},{"start":6215.7,"end":6216.7,"text":"這樣子的功能"},{"start":6216.7,"end":6217.7,"text":"因為它可能就是"},{"start":6217.7,"end":6218.7,"text":"很多食物品"},{"start":6218.7,"end":6219.7,"text":"食品生產的原物料"},{"start":6219.7,"end":6220.7,"text":"這部分"},{"start":6220.7,"end":6221.7,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":6221.7,"end":6222.7,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6225.22,"end":6226.22,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":6226.22,"end":6227.22,"text":"那接下來我們"},{"start":6227.22,"end":6229.22,"text":"有請林茜琴委員發言"},{"start":6236.52,"end":6238.52,"text":"好謝謝我們主席翁昭偉"},{"start":6238.52,"end":6239.52,"text":"那麼沒有真相"},{"start":6239.52,"end":6240.52,"text":"不應急著上架"},{"start":6240.52,"end":6242.52,"text":"是我這次對這個油品"},{"start":6242.52,"end":6244.52,"text":"獨遊這個事件的"},{"start":6244.52,"end":6246.52,"text":"一致的立場跟態度"},{"start":6246.52,"end":6248.52,"text":"所以首先我要請教"},{"start":6248.52,"end":6249.52,"text":"這門衛福部"},{"start":6249.52,"end":6250.52,"text":"那現在是次長"},{"start":6250.52,"end":6251.52,"text":"你次長"},{"start":6257.35,"end":6258.35,"text":"大家好"},{"start":6258.35,"end":6259.35,"text":"次長好"},{"start":6259.35,"end":6260.35,"text":"那麼本席首先要提出"},{"start":6260.35,"end":6261.35,"text":"不僅是本席"},{"start":6261.35,"end":6262.35,"text":"而且也是很多"},{"start":6262.35,"end":6264.35,"text":"地方首長的這個疑問"},{"start":6264.35,"end":6266.35,"text":"那麼中聯遊指事件的真相"},{"start":6266.35,"end":6268.35,"text":"還沒有完全釐清"},{"start":6268.35,"end":6269.35,"text":"那麼衛福部目前"},{"start":6269.35,"end":6271.35,"text":"急著要讓19批的這個油品"},{"start":6271.35,"end":6273.35,"text":"來重新上架"},{"start":6273.35,"end":6275.35,"text":"那這個你們的食藥署表示"},{"start":6275.35,"end":6278.35,"text":"中聯今年4月到6月"},{"start":6278.35,"end":6280.35,"text":"生產的30批大豆沙拉油當中"},{"start":6280.35,"end":6282.35,"text":"10批經過"},{"start":6282.35,"end":6285.35,"text":"19批經過上游油品"},{"start":6285.35,"end":6286.35,"text":"上游的原油"},{"start":6286.35,"end":6288.35,"text":"還有下游的產品檢驗"},{"start":6288.35,"end":6290.35,"text":"以及批次流向的核對以後"},{"start":6290.35,"end":6292.35,"text":"確認符合標準"},{"start":6292.35,"end":6294.35,"text":"因此可以重新上架"},{"start":6294.35,"end":6296.35,"text":"但是本席是尊重這個"},{"start":6296.35,"end":6297.35,"text":"科學的檢驗"},{"start":6297.35,"end":6299.35,"text":"只是食安的這個問題"},{"start":6299.35,"end":6300.35,"text":"我們必須要有三個"},{"start":6300.35,"end":6301.35,"text":"我想民眾都很關心的"},{"start":6301.35,"end":6302.35,"text":"一個基本問題"},{"start":6302.35,"end":6303.35,"text":"那麼第一"},{"start":6303.35,"end":6305.35,"text":"一直大家在問的是"},{"start":6305.35,"end":6306.35,"text":"請問這個汙染源"},{"start":6306.35,"end":6307.35,"text":"到底是在哪裡"},{"start":6307.35,"end":6308.35,"text":"那麼第二個部分是"},{"start":6308.35,"end":6310.35,"text":"為什麼中聯的流樣"},{"start":6310.35,"end":6311.35,"text":"檢驗報告"},{"start":6311.35,"end":6313.35,"text":"跟下游產品的檢驗結果"},{"start":6313.35,"end":6315.35,"text":"出現了這麼大的落差"},{"start":6315.35,"end":6316.35,"text":"那麼第三個部分是"},{"start":6316.35,"end":6319.35,"text":"那業者有沒有隱匿造假"},{"start":6319.35,"end":6321.35,"text":"還有政府的三級評管制度"},{"start":6321.35,"end":6323.35,"text":"又是哪一個環節出的問題"},{"start":6323.35,"end":6327.35,"text":"那麼中央急著要重新上架"},{"start":6327.35,"end":6329.35,"text":"那麼真正執行面對群眾的"},{"start":6329.35,"end":6331.35,"text":"這個地方政府"},{"start":6331.35,"end":6332.35,"text":"怎麼向民眾來保證"},{"start":6332.35,"end":6334.35,"text":"這一定是安全的"},{"start":6334.35,"end":6335.35,"text":"那民眾又憑什麼"},{"start":6335.35,"end":6337.35,"text":"可以恢復信心"},{"start":6337.35,"end":6338.35,"text":"那剛才本席所講的幾點"},{"start":6338.35,"end":6340.35,"text":"都還沒有釐清"},{"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服售或甚至南橋"},{"start":6403.35,"end":6404.35,"text":"驗到不合格的這幾個批次"},{"start":6404.35,"end":6405.35,"text":"我們是確定"},{"start":6405.35,"end":6406.35,"text":"他就是一個不合格"},{"start":6406.35,"end":6407.35,"text":"所以他是一定要下架"},{"start":6407.35,"end":6409.35,"text":"而且現在接下來要啟動"},{"start":6409.35,"end":6410.35,"text":"已經啟動回收"},{"start":6410.35,"end":6411.35,"text":"那再來要啟動銷毀"},{"start":6411.35,"end":6412.35,"text":"這是第一個部分"},{"start":6412.35,"end":6413.35,"text":"那第二個部分就是說"},{"start":6413.35,"end":6415.35,"text":"這一次預防性的這30"},{"start":6415.35,"end":6417.35,"text":"這全部的這30批裡面"},{"start":6417.35,"end":6419.35,"text":"我們取得了有流樣"},{"start":6419.35,"end":6420.35,"text":"這個流樣就是說"},{"start":6420.35,"end":6421.35,"text":"從中聯一路下來"},{"start":6421.35,"end":6422.35,"text":"從中聯到服貿"},{"start":6422.35,"end":6423.35,"text":"中聯到服售"},{"start":6423.35,"end":6424.35,"text":"中聯到泰山"},{"start":6424.35,"end":6427.35,"text":"這邊服貿 服售泰山的緣由"},{"start":6427.35,"end":6428.35,"text":"他的流樣緣由"},{"start":6428.35,"end":6429.35,"text":"也就是我們從他的"},{"start":6429.35,"end":6430.35,"text":"第二成廠商這邊"},{"start":6430.35,"end":6431.35,"text":"去取"},{"start":6431.35,"end":6433.35,"text":"那這個當然這裡面的檢體"},{"start":6433.35,"end":6435.35,"text":"我們去委託後續做檢查"},{"start":6435.35,"end":6437.35,"text":"那這邊目前這幾批油出來"},{"start":6437.35,"end":6439.35,"text":"他都符合我們在食安法裡面"},{"start":6439.35,"end":6440.35,"text":"所規定的油脂"},{"start":6440.35,"end":6442.35,"text":"這個本便批不得"},{"start":6442.35,"end":6443.35,"text":"這個本便批的那個標準"},{"start":6443.35,"end":6444.35,"text":"好 所以這個部分"},{"start":6444.35,"end":6446.35,"text":"是在目前現行法規裡面"},{"start":6446.35,"end":6447.35,"text":"這些是符合的"},{"start":6447.35,"end":6448.35,"text":"那剛剛所以"},{"start":6448.35,"end":6449.35,"text":"本席這邊所講的"},{"start":6449.35,"end":6451.35,"text":"所以汙染到底是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":6451.35,"end":6453.35,"text":"我們這邊其實在"},{"start":6453.35,"end":6455.35,"text":"當然在專家這邊"},{"start":6455.35,"end":6456.35,"text":"會用汙染這個詞"},{"start":6456.35,"end":6457.35,"text":"不過再補充一下"},{"start":6457.35,"end":6458.35,"text":"其實這個部分"},{"start":6458.35,"end":6459.35,"text":"就是其實"},{"start":6459.35,"end":6461.35,"text":"在油品製造過程中"},{"start":6461.35,"end":6462.35,"text":"我們當然現在"},{"start":6462.35,"end":6463.35,"text":"再委託第三方去做"},{"start":6463.35,"end":6465.35,"text":"中聯這邊在HACCP"},{"start":6465.35,"end":6466.35,"text":"每一個製造節點"},{"start":6466.35,"end":6467.35,"text":"他應該加什麼"},{"start":6467.35,"end":6468.35,"text":"進去做處理"},{"start":6468.35,"end":6470.35,"text":"是不是處理得不夠等等"},{"start":6470.35,"end":6472.35,"text":"這是專業上面正在做處理"},{"start":6472.35,"end":6473.35,"text":"好 那我稍微就面臨一個"},{"start":6473.35,"end":6476.35,"text":"專業跟民眾的一個認知"},{"start":6476.35,"end":6477.35,"text":"所以有落差的情況下"},{"start":6477.35,"end":6479.35,"text":"我想大家的這個對於"},{"start":6479.35,"end":6481.35,"text":"目前你們思考重新上架的"},{"start":6481.35,"end":6482.35,"text":"這堆油品"},{"start":6482.35,"end":6483.35,"text":"是不是絕對的安全"},{"start":6483.35,"end":6484.35,"text":"我想這個民眾"},{"start":6484.35,"end":6485.35,"text":"會有很大的疑慮"},{"start":6485.35,"end":6487.35,"text":"謝謝 我再稍微說明一下"},{"start":6487.35,"end":6488.35,"text":"就是說第一個事情是"},{"start":6488.35,"end":6490.35,"text":"這19P是我們現在"},{"start":6490.35,"end":6491.35,"text":"拿到了原油樣本"},{"start":6491.35,"end":6493.35,"text":"從不是中聯的地方"},{"start":6493.35,"end":6494.35,"text":"拿到原油樣本去做出來"},{"start":6494.35,"end":6496.35,"text":"他是符合標準"},{"start":6496.35,"end":6497.35,"text":"這是第一個事情"},{"start":6497.35,"end":6498.35,"text":"第二個事情我們事實上"},{"start":6498.35,"end":6499.35,"text":"現在來講這個本篇皮"},{"start":6499.35,"end":6500.35,"text":"目前認為就是"},{"start":6500.35,"end":6501.35,"text":"他在製成過程中"},{"start":6501.35,"end":6503.35,"text":"他有好幾個HACCP的節點"},{"start":6503.35,"end":6505.35,"text":"他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6505.35,"end":6506.35,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6506.35,"end":6508.35,"text":"可是他的處理不當"},{"start":6509.12,"end":6510.12,"text":"好 現在我們來講"},{"start":6510.12,"end":6511.12,"text":"這個本篇皮的"},{"start":6511.12,"end":6512.12,"text":"他有好幾個HACCP的節點"},{"start":6512.12,"end":6513.12,"text":"他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6513.12,"end":6514.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6514.12,"end":6515.12,"text":"可是他的處理不當"},{"start":6515.12,"end":6516.12,"text":"可是他的處理不當"},{"start":6516.12,"end":6517.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6517.12,"end":6518.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6518.12,"end":6519.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6519.12,"end":6520.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6520.12,"end":6521.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6521.12,"end":6522.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6522.12,"end":6523.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6523.12,"end":6524.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6524.12,"end":6525.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6525.12,"end":6526.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6526.12,"end":6527.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6527.12,"end":6528.12,"text":"本篇皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":6528.12,"end":6529.12,"text":"所以他應該要能夠讓這個"},{"start":6509.87,"end":6511.87,"text":"本席講到這個全面性的問題是"},{"start":6511.87,"end":6512.87,"text":"大家的疑慮對民眾來講"},{"start":6512.87,"end":6513.87,"text":"大家的疑慮對民眾來講"},{"start":6513.87,"end":6514.87,"text":"他其實沒有必要"},{"start":6514.87,"end":6515.87,"text":"去了解你這個"},{"start":6515.87,"end":6516.87,"text":"所謂的專業上的問題"},{"start":6516.87,"end":6517.87,"text":"可是大家的疑慮就是"},{"start":6517.87,"end":6518.87,"text":"可是大家的疑慮就是"},{"start":6518.87,"end":6519.87,"text":"我原因都還不知道"},{"start":6519.87,"end":6521.87,"text":"那您剛才講的節點或斷點"},{"start":6521.87,"end":6524.87,"text":"或者是中間的一些可能性"},{"start":6524.87,"end":6526.87,"text":"我想民眾對於這其中"},{"start":6526.87,"end":6527.87,"text":"會不會還有一些問題"},{"start":6527.87,"end":6528.87,"text":"其實是有一些疑慮的"},{"start":6528.87,"end":6529.87,"text":"所以中聯我們目前就是"},{"start":6529.87,"end":6530.87,"text":"不會同意他復工"},{"start":6530.87,"end":6532.87,"text":"但是在目前我們驗到的"},{"start":6532.87,"end":6535.87,"text":"另外這19P出來的這些產品"},{"start":6535.87,"end":6537.87,"text":"在我們現在驗到"},{"start":6537.87,"end":6538.87,"text":"他的標準是符合的"},{"start":6538.87,"end":6541.87,"text":"所以那目前整個供應鏈的"},{"start":6541.87,"end":6543.87,"text":"誠信問題其實還沒有完全釐清"},{"start":6543.87,"end":6545.87,"text":"那麼重新上架的這個標準"},{"start":6545.87,"end":6547.87,"text":"有沒有納入對於業者的誠信"},{"start":6547.87,"end":6548.87,"text":"製程的管理"},{"start":6548.87,"end":6550.87,"text":"跟追溯資料的可靠性"},{"start":6550.87,"end":6552.87,"text":"還是只是依您所講的"},{"start":6552.87,"end":6553.87,"text":"重新檢驗合格"},{"start":6553.87,"end":6555.87,"text":"就可以跟整個食安事件"},{"start":6555.87,"end":6557.87,"text":"全部切割"},{"start":6557.87,"end":6558.87,"text":"我想我們還是會全面性的去做"},{"start":6558.87,"end":6561.87,"text":"更未來在整個有品品質上面"},{"start":6561.87,"end":6562.87,"text":"還有相關這些"},{"start":6562.87,"end":6564.87,"text":"大型廠商的責任上面"},{"start":6564.87,"end":6565.87,"text":"做更高的要求"},{"start":6565.87,"end":6566.87,"text":"那當然我們前面"},{"start":6566.87,"end":6567.87,"text":"也會保護做檢查"},{"start":6567.87,"end":6568.87,"text":"所以剛才本席所講的"},{"start":6568.87,"end":6569.87,"text":"目前業者的誠信"},{"start":6569.87,"end":6570.87,"text":"製程的管理"},{"start":6570.87,"end":6572.87,"text":"還有資料的追溯"},{"start":6572.87,"end":6575.87,"text":"是在你們的目前要重新上架的"},{"start":6575.87,"end":6576.87,"text":"一個考量當中嗎"},{"start":6576.87,"end":6577.87,"text":"我們重新上架這邊"},{"start":6577.87,"end":6579.87,"text":"當然也先跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":6579.87,"end":6580.87,"text":"我們在之前對於"},{"start":6580.87,"end":6581.87,"text":"因為還是要強調"},{"start":6581.87,"end":6583.87,"text":"中聯這邊驗到不合格的是"},{"start":6583.87,"end":6584.87,"text":"不可能上架的"},{"start":6584.87,"end":6586.87,"text":"而且我們接下來要啟動銷售"},{"start":6586.87,"end":6588.87,"text":"這如果上架不是太離譜了"},{"start":6588.87,"end":6589.87,"text":"那之前另外的"},{"start":6589.87,"end":6590.87,"text":"本席所講的是"},{"start":6590.87,"end":6592.87,"text":"你們現在重新上架的這個標準"},{"start":6592.87,"end":6593.87,"text":"似乎看起來就是"},{"start":6593.87,"end":6595.87,"text":"重新抽驗是合格的"},{"start":6595.87,"end":6596.87,"text":"本席剛才所講的"},{"start":6596.87,"end":6598.87,"text":"業者誠信製程管理"},{"start":6598.87,"end":6600.87,"text":"跟追溯資料的可靠性"},{"start":6600.87,"end":6601.87,"text":"你們目前做了嗎"},{"start":6601.87,"end":6602.87,"text":"我們現在正在進行"},{"start":6602.87,"end":6603.87,"text":"那當然中聯這邊"},{"start":6603.87,"end":6605.87,"text":"正在進行進行調查"},{"start":6605.87,"end":6606.87,"text":"是不是這個部分"},{"start":6606.87,"end":6609.87,"text":"如果沒有很清楚的確認"},{"start":6609.87,"end":6612.87,"text":"這批油品先不要上架"},{"start":6612.87,"end":6613.87,"text":"要不然其實消費者"},{"start":6613.87,"end":6615.87,"text":"對於這些油品"},{"start":6615.87,"end":6616.87,"text":"有沒有可能有毒"},{"start":6616.87,"end":6618.87,"text":"可能還是會有疑慮"},{"start":6618.87,"end":6619.87,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6619.87,"end":6620.87,"text":"就在這邊先做一個提醒"},{"start":6620.87,"end":6622.87,"text":"報告委員這19批檢驗合格"},{"start":6622.87,"end":6624.87,"text":"這是我剛才的問題就是說"},{"start":6624.87,"end":6626.87,"text":"你們目前唯一的要素"},{"start":6626.87,"end":6627.87,"text":"就是檢驗合格"},{"start":6627.87,"end":6629.87,"text":"可是剛剛本席"},{"start":6629.87,"end":6631.87,"text":"也提出來好幾個要素"},{"start":6631.87,"end":6634.87,"text":"你們應該在同時做一個處理"},{"star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報告委員"},{"start":6914.35,"end":6915.35,"text":"這個議題呢"},{"start":6915.35,"end":6917.35,"text":"在消基會的代表"},{"start":6917.35,"end":6919.35,"text":"也是我們行政院保護會的委員"},{"start":6919.35,"end":6920.35,"text":"那他在我們的委員會裡面"},{"start":6920.35,"end":6922.35,"text":"有提到這樣的一個建議"},{"start":6922.35,"end":6923.35,"text":"跟委員相同的建議"},{"start":6923.35,"end":6924.35,"text":"那這個建議呢"},{"start":6924.35,"end":6926.35,"text":"我們後來在4月底的時候"},{"start":6926.35,"end":6927.35,"text":"有開一個會"},{"start":6927.35,"end":6928.35,"text":"邀請區的專家"},{"start":6928.35,"end":6929.35,"text":"包含消基會代表"},{"start":6929.35,"end":6930.35,"text":"以及台消會的代表"},{"start":6930.35,"end":6932.35,"text":"都有出席這個會議"},{"start":6932.35,"end":6935.35,"text":"司法院的代表也有出席這個會議"},{"start":6935.35,"end":6936.35,"text":"那這裡面"},{"start":6936.35,"end":6937.35,"text":"接下來也會請教司法院"},{"start":6937.35,"end":6938.35,"text":"那裡面有一些議題"},{"start":6938.35,"end":6940.35,"text":"我們是持開放的態度"},{"start":6940.35,"end":6941.35,"text":"就是說我們希望這個議題"},{"start":6941.35,"end":6942.35,"text":"能夠比較完整"},{"start":6942.35,"end":6944.35,"text":"那包含這個提案裡面"},{"start":6944.35,"end":6945.35,"text":"他的這個"},{"start":6945.35,"end":6947.35,"text":"他的訴訟的性質定性是什麼"},{"start":6947.35,"end":6948.35,"text":"譬如說他到底是一個"},{"start":6948.35,"end":6950.35,"text":"損害賠償的一個訴訟"},{"start":6950.35,"end":6951.35,"text":"或者是一個不法利得"},{"start":6951.35,"end":6952.35,"text":"追求的訴訟"},{"start":6952.35,"end":6953.35,"text":"那這個會跟後面的"},{"start":6953.35,"end":6954.35,"text":"整個條文的設計"},{"start":6954.35,"end":6955.35,"text":"都會非常有關係"},{"start":6955.35,"end":6956.35,"text":"也相當的複雜"},{"start":6956.35,"end":6958.35,"text":"那我們在4月開完以後呢"},{"start":6958.35,"end":6959.35,"text":"現在再整理一些"},{"start":6959.35,"end":6960.35,"text":"國外的法制"},{"start":6960.35,"end":6961.35,"text":"還有我們自己的"},{"start":6961.35,"end":6963.35,"text":"一些委員的一些意見"},{"start":6963.35,"end":6965.35,"text":"那希望後續能夠再持續"},{"start":6965.35,"end":6966.35,"text":"進行一些討論"},{"start":6966.35,"end":6968.35,"text":"先跟委員報告 謝謝"},{"start":6968.35,"end":6969.35,"text":"謝謝你們的這個回應"},{"start":6969.35,"end":6970.35,"text":"那我想這樣的問題"},{"start":6970.35,"end":6972.35,"text":"你也認同本席所提出來的"},{"start":6972.35,"end":6973.35,"text":"應該也是在"},{"start":6973.35,"end":6975.35,"text":"因應後續的這個狀況"},{"start":6975.35,"end":6976.35,"text":"我們會持續的"},{"start":6976.35,"end":6977.35,"text":"比較公允"},{"start":6977.35,"end":6978.35,"text":"我們會持續的在討論"},{"start":6978.35,"end":6979.35,"text":"來請教一些學者"},{"start":6979.35,"end":6980.35,"text":"參加跟消保團體"},{"start":6980.35,"end":6981.35,"text":"謝謝委員長"},{"start":6981.35,"end":6982.35,"text":"那謝謝考量這樣一個"},{"start":6982.35,"end":6983.35,"text":"這些因素"},{"start":6983.35,"end":6985.35,"text":"那接下來當然司法院"},{"start":6985.35,"end":6986.35,"text":"因為你們在這個世界上"},{"start":6986.35,"end":6987.35,"text":"也有參與"},{"start":6987.35,"end":6989.35,"text":"所以如果建立這個"},{"start":6989.35,"end":6990.35,"text":"針對這個問題"},{"start":6990.35,"end":6991.35,"text":"我們如果建立這類公益"},{"start":6991.35,"end":6993.35,"text":"代表的這個訴訟"},{"start":6993.35,"end":6994.35,"text":"那麼司法體系"},{"start":6994.35,"end":6995.35,"text":"有沒有準備好"},{"start":6995.35,"end":6996.35,"text":"來處理不特定"},{"start":6996.35,"end":6998.35,"text":"多數消費者的認定"},{"start":6998.35,"end":6999.35,"text":"還有損害範圍"},{"start":6999.35,"end":7002.35,"text":"以及後續加入求償的機制"},{"start":7002.35,"end":7004.35,"text":"先由法院來確認"},{"start":7004.35,"end":7005.35,"text":"企業責任"},{"start":7005.35,"end":7007.35,"text":"然後再讓符合條件的"},{"start":7007.35,"end":7008.35,"text":"消費者來加入"},{"start":7008.35,"end":7009.35,"text":"請求救濟"},{"start":7009.35,"end":7010.35,"text":"那這個有沒有制度的"},{"start":7010.35,"end":7011.35,"text":"一個可行性呢"},{"start":7012.96,"end":7014.96,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7014.96,"end":7016.96,"text":"因為關於委員這個提議"},{"start":7016.96,"end":7018.96,"text":"在五國現行法制確實是"},{"start":7018.96,"end":7020.96,"text":"沒有這樣的一個機制"},{"start":7020.96,"end":7021.96,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":7021.96,"end":7024.96,"text":"它在現行的法理上面"},{"start":7024.96,"end":7025.96,"text":"最主要還會涉及到"},{"start":7025.96,"end":7027.96,"text":"計判力的問題"},{"start":7027.96,"end":7029.96,"text":"因為當初我們現行法制"},{"start":7029.96,"end":7033.96,"text":"因為消費者把那個債權"},{"start":7033.96,"end":7035.96,"text":"讓於給消保團體"},{"start":7035.96,"end":7036.96,"text":"所以消保團體去打了"},{"start":7036.96,"end":7037.96,"text":"那個訴訟之後"},{"start":7037.96,"end":7039.96,"text":"那個計判力會急於"},{"start":7039.96,"end":7040.96,"text":"個別消費者"},{"start":7040.96,"end":7041.96,"text":"因為對個別消費者來講"},{"start":7041.96,"end":7044.96,"text":"他真正要拿到的是那個債權"},{"start":7046.71,"end":7048.71,"text":"所以如果說用"},{"start":7048.71,"end":7049.71,"text":"所謂的"},{"start":7049.71,"end":7052.71,"text":"行政機關或特定團體的公益團體"},{"start":7052.71,"end":7054.71,"text":"這個金錢分配要怎麼分"},{"start":7054.71,"end":7055.71,"text":"這個是知識體"},{"start":7055.71,"end":7057.71,"text":"這個計判力的牽涉範圍"},{"start":7057.71,"end":7059.71,"text":"可能要從長記憶"},{"start":7059.71,"end":7060.71,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":7060.71,"end":7062.71,"text":"現行法制法理上"},{"start":7062.71,"end":7063.71,"text":"有這樣的一個疑慮"},{"start":7063.71,"end":7065.71,"text":"那當然制度設計"},{"start":7065.71,"end":7067.71,"text":"如果它能夠解除"},{"start":7067.71,"end":7071.71,"text":"可能要請教民事訴訟的學者專家"},{"start":7071.71,"end":7073.71,"text":"他們在這個制度設計上"},{"start":7073.71,"end":7074.71,"text":"會有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":7074.71,"end":7077.71,"text":"是不是能夠克服剛才跟委員提到的這些問題"},{"start":7077.71,"end":7080.71,"text":"那如果說可以克服的話"},{"start":7080.71,"end":7082.71,"text":"那當然制度設計妥當"},{"start":7082.71,"end":7085.71,"text":"那法院當然就是依法來處理"},{"start":7085.71,"end":7086.71,"text":"但是剛才委員提到的"},{"start":7086.71,"end":7090.71,"text":"好像是意思要建議方向是兩階段"},{"start":7090.71,"end":7091.71,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":7091.71,"end":7093.71,"text":"這個你們在先前的這個會議裡面討論"},{"start":7093.71,"end":7094.71,"text":"有討論過嗎"},{"start":7094.71,"end":7095.71,"text":"就是本席這個看法"},{"start":7095.71,"end":7096.71,"text":"當時消保會來會的時候"},{"start":7096.71,"end":7097.71,"text":"就是有提到說"},{"start":7097.71,"end":7100.71,"text":"有消保團體建議公益團體訴訟"},{"start":7100.71,"end":7101.71,"text":"那我們有提供說"},{"start":7101.71,"end":7103.71,"text":"我們剛才所提到的疑慮"},{"start":7103.71,"end":7106.71,"text":"但因為當時消保會的議題"},{"start":7106.71,"end":7110.71,"text":"它是一個有某消費者團體提出的建議"},{"start":7110.71,"end":7112.71,"text":"其實那個內容並不明確"},{"start":7112.71,"end":7116.71,"text":"所以我們也沒有辦法就不明確的東西"},{"start":7116.71,"end":7117.71,"text":"有太多的意見"},{"start":7117.71,"end":7119.71,"text":"我們只是提出可能的問題方向"},{"start":7119.71,"end":7120.71,"text":"好的 謝謝"},{"start":7120.71,"end":7122.71,"text":"那我想這應該是在法治上"},{"start":7122.71,"end":7124.71,"text":"對於整個修法"},{"start":7124.71,"end":7126.71,"text":"或者是個案引起的可能"},{"start":7126.71,"end":7128.71,"text":"全面性的問題的一個嚴謹"},{"start":7128.71,"end":7131.71,"text":"那本席今天也這樣提出一個看法"},{"start":7131.71,"end":7132.71,"text":"跟建議"},{"start":7132.71,"end":7134.71,"text":"那如果你們在先前也沒有討論"},{"start":7134.71,"end":7137.71,"text":"或者在討論的資料內容上"},{"start":7137.71,"end":7138.71,"text":"不是那麼明確"},{"start":7138.71,"end":7140.71,"text":"那本席提供這樣一個方向"},{"start":7140.71,"end":7141.71,"text":"那或許你們也可以"},{"start":7141.71,"end":7143.71,"text":"就專家學者"},{"start":7143.71,"end":7145.71,"text":"跟民間我們現在可能發生的"},{"start":7145.71,"end":7146.71,"text":"這樣一個實際的案例"},{"start":7146.71,"end":7149.71,"text":"然後再做更進一步的討論"},{"start":7149.71,"end":7152.71,"text":"然後如果有一些比較具體的可能性"},{"start":7152.71,"end":7154.71,"text":"那是不是也提供本席"},{"start":7154.71,"end":7156.71,"text":"研究室這邊相關的一個資料"},{"start":7156.71,"end":7158.71,"text":"好不好 謝謝"},{"start":7158.71,"end":7159.71,"text":"那接下來最後"},{"start":7159.71,"end":7161.71,"text":"我們就針對第二個議題"},{"start":7161.71,"end":7162.71,"text":"就是國家投資"},{"start":7162.71,"end":7165.71,"text":"這個跟利益衝突的一個制度上的問題"},{"start":7165.71,"end":7168.71,"text":"那我這邊就請教我們法務部正部長"},{"start":7168.71,"end":7172.71,"text":"跟我們國發會是江執秘今天代表嗎"},{"start":7178.22,"end":7179.22,"text":"委員好"},{"start":7179.22,"end":7180.22,"text":"部長執秘好"},{"start":7180.22,"end":7182.22,"text":"那麼本席最後來請教"},{"start":7182.22,"end":7185.22,"text":"這個我相信大家滿關注的一個個案"},{"start":7185.22,"end":7187.22,"text":"那麼當行政院的這個"},{"start":7187.22,"end":7189.22,"text":"二清等的親屬認職的公司"},{"start":7189.22,"end":7192.22,"text":"然後接受了行政院所屬的這個國發基金"},{"start":7192.22,"end":7195.22,"text":"也是滿大一個數的兩千萬投資"},{"start":7195.22,"end":7196.22,"text":"那麼經濟部這邊也有"},{"start":7196.22,"end":7199.22,"text":"一百二十萬的這個補助的時候"},{"start":7199.22,"end":7202.22,"text":"我想社會大眾對於這個利益回避制度"},{"start":7202.22,"end":7204.22,"text":"究竟有沒有效"},{"start":7204.22,"end":7205.22,"text":"也是提出很多疑問"},{"start":7205.22,"end":7207.22,"text":"當然剛才很多人也提出來"},{"start":7207.22,"end":7209.22,"text":"大家在質詢的時候"},{"start":7209.22,"end":7212.22,"text":"提出一些比較細項的這個釐清"},{"start":7212.22,"end":7214.22,"text":"但是針對這案"},{"start":7214.22,"end":7217.22,"text":"依據我們目前知道的公開的資料"},{"start":7217.22,"end":7219.22,"text":"那麼這個公司在2022年"},{"start":7219.22,"end":7221.22,"text":"就已經申請國發基金"},{"start":7221.22,"end":7223.22,"text":"那麼創業天使投資方案"},{"start":7223.22,"end":7226.22,"text":"那也獲得一個很特殊的數額"},{"start":7226.22,"end":7229.22,"text":"一千九百九十九萬九千元"},{"start":7229.22,"end":7231.22,"text":"然後在2024年又取得了"},{"start":7231.22,"end":7234.22,"text":"經濟部商業發展署一百二十萬的這個補助"},{"start":7234.22,"end":7235.22,"text":"那麼在親屬"},{"start":7235.22,"end":7236.22,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":7236.22,"end":7239.22,"text":"親屬關係有沒有具實的揭露"},{"start":7239.22,"end":7241.22,"text":"那麼審查的人有沒有知悉"},{"start":7241.22,"end":7243.22,"text":"還有整個的程序是不是足以排除"},{"start":7243.22,"end":7246.22,"text":"外界對利益輸送的一個合理懷疑"},{"start":7246.22,"end":7249.22,"text":"所以這個是本席針對這個個案"},{"start":7249.22,"end":7251.22,"text":"的一個前導的這個說明"},{"start":7251.22,"end":7253.22,"text":"所以本席先請教我們法務部"},{"start":7253.22,"end":7256.22,"text":"部長那麼依據這個公職人員的"},{"start":7256.22,"end":7258.22,"text":"利益回避衝突法"},{"start":7258.22,"end":7260.22,"text":"第十四條的明定"},{"start":7260.22,"end":7262.22,"text":"公職人員及其關係人"},{"start":7262.22,"end":7266.22,"text":"不得與其服務或受監督的這個機關團體"},{"start":7266.22,"end":7269.22,"text":"從事補助買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":7269.22,"end":7272.22,"text":"或其他具有對價之交易行為"},{"start":7272.22,"end":7274.22,"text":"那麼符合所謂的例外情形"},{"start":7274.22,"end":7278.22,"text":"還是需要依法來揭露身份的關係"},{"start":7278.22,"end":7280.22,"text":"那麼國發會的投資基金"},{"start":7280.22,"end":7282.22,"text":"那又投資了"},{"start":7282.22,"end":7284.22,"text":"然後又取得這個股權"},{"start":7284.22,"end":7289.22,"text":"那這個是不是在資金跟股權的互相交換"},{"start":7289.22,"end":7293.22,"text":"是不是有一些對價的行為的一個疑慮"},{"start":7293.22,"end":7296.22,"text":"那麼法務部對於這個政府基金股權投資"},{"start":7296.22,"end":7298.22,"text":"是否適用在十四條"},{"start":7298.22,"end":7301.22,"text":"那麼有沒有正式的一些法律的見解"},{"start":7301.22,"end":7305.22,"text":"那麼行政這事看起來就是行政機關"},{"start":7305.22,"end":7306.22,"text":"就自行詢問律師"},{"start":7306.22,"end":7309.22,"text":"就認定不在那個規範的範圍"},{"start":7309.22,"end":7312.22,"text":"但是現在條文如果沒有辦法涵蓋"},{"start":7312.22,"end":7314.22,"text":"法務部是不是認為這是應該"},{"start":7314.22,"end":7316.22,"text":"應該要儘速補上的一個"},{"start":7316.22,"end":7319.22,"text":"法律的置入洞您的看法呢"},{"start":7320.15,"end":7322.15,"text":"拜拜"},{"start":7321.23,"end":7323.23,"text":"這個的確這個個案的問題"},{"start":7323.23,"end":7325.23,"text":"現在監察已經受理在處理了"},{"start":7325.23,"end":7329.23,"text":"那依據那個立沖法第20條的規定"},{"start":7329.23,"end":7332.23,"text":"這個個案是由以這個來講"},{"start":7332.23,"end":7335.23,"text":"這是由那個監察來全管來做一個主政"},{"start":7335.23,"end":7337.23,"text":"那關於事實這邊"},{"start":7337.23,"end":7341.23,"text":"因為不是我們法務部連證署在處理的"},{"start":7341.23,"end":7344.23,"text":"所以我們對這個案的情形很清楚"},{"start":7344.23,"end":7347.23,"text":"因為沒辦法去做一樣的一個調查"},{"start":7347.23,"end":7348.23,"text":"再來做一個裁罰"},{"start":7348.23,"end":7350.23,"text":"所以事實上怎麼樣"},{"start":7350.23,"end":7352.23,"text":"這是屬於第14條的事"},{"start":7352.23,"end":7355.23,"text":"我們還要回歸到第14條來看"},{"start":7355.23,"end":7357.23,"text":"那第14條這個的確是"},{"start":7357.23,"end":7360.23,"text":"限於那個公子人眼跟"},{"start":7360.23,"end":7361.23,"text":"或者他的關係"},{"start":7361.23,"end":7363.23,"text":"他有補助買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":7363.23,"end":7366.23,"text":"跟其他有對價的一個交易行為"},{"start":7366.23,"end":7369.23,"text":"那這個投資這個顯然不在"},{"start":7369.23,"end":7371.23,"text":"第14條的範圍之內"},{"start":7371.23,"end":7373.23,"text":"那投資這個行為"},{"start":7373.23,"end":7377.23,"text":"因為我們只能就14條這部分"},{"start":7377.23,"end":7379.23,"text":"來做一個解釋"},{"start":7379.23,"end":7381.23,"text":"那是不是這部分"},{"start":7381.23,"end":7383.23,"text":"我們沒辦法做一個認定"},{"start":7383.23,"end":7387.23,"text":"因為這個不是我們法務全管的一個處理的"},{"start":7387.23,"end":7388.23,"text":"好的 了解"},{"start":7388.23,"end":7389.23,"text":"那今天比較可惜啦"},{"start":7389.23,"end":7390.23,"text":"監察院不在"},{"start":7390.23,"end":7392.23,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法對照的"},{"start":7392.23,"end":7395.23,"text":"來處理跟因應解決這個問題"},{"start":7395.23,"end":7397.23,"text":"但只是說如果後續"},{"start":7397.23,"end":7400.23,"text":"在這個資訊上有更明朗的話"},{"start":7400.23,"end":7401.23,"text":"那本席剛才所講的"},{"start":7401.23,"end":7404.23,"text":"如果可能是一個制度上的漏洞"},{"start":7404.23,"end":7406.23,"text":"那可能是不是法務部這邊"},{"start":7406.23,"end":7409.23,"text":"法務部這邊在未來資訊上比較明朗"},{"start":7409.23,"end":7412.23,"text":"那再看看假設本席所講的這個情況"},{"start":7412.23,"end":7416.23,"text":"那在修法的一個可能性上提供一些參考"},{"start":7416.23,"end":7418.23,"text":"這個是要請監察院來做一個認定"},{"start":7418.23,"end":7421.23,"text":"那我們只能就是依照法律的規定來處理"},{"start":7422.26,"end":7424.26,"text":"好的 那本席提出來就是說"},{"start":7424.26,"end":7427.26,"text":"如果未來資訊有比較明朗"},{"start":7427.26,"end":7428.26,"text":"有必要"},{"start":7428.26,"end":7432.26,"text":"那麼可能我們就在針對修法的可能性再做一個討論"},{"start":7432.26,"end":7433.26,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":7433.26,"end":7437.26,"text":"那比較可惜的是監察院今天沒有出席"},{"start":7437.26,"end":7439.26,"text":"對不起 國防委員再跟您請教一下"},{"start":7439.26,"end":7442.26,"text":"那麼國防委員在這個案子"},{"start":7442.26,"end":7444.26,"text":"由外部專家的這個審議"},{"start":7444.26,"end":7446.26,"text":"但是外界今天還沒有看到"},{"start":7446.26,"end":7448.26,"text":"整個審議委員的組成"},{"start":7448.26,"end":7450.26,"text":"還有利益迴避的紀錄"},{"start":7450.26,"end":7452.26,"text":"跟評估的內容和投票的結果"},{"start":7452.26,"end":7454.26,"text":"那還有你們的簽核層級"},{"start":7454.26,"end":7457.26,"text":"跟投資之後的整個管理成效"},{"start":7457.26,"end":7460.26,"text":"所以本席這邊跟您請教一下"},{"start":7460.26,"end":7463.26,"text":"你能不能承諾向立法院來完整提供"},{"start":7463.26,"end":7466.26,"text":"本案的審查文件 審查程序"},{"start":7466.26,"end":7468.26,"text":"評估報告 簽核的流程"},{"start":7468.26,"end":7471.26,"text":"以及投資後的一個管理資料"},{"start":7471.26,"end":7474.26,"text":"那麼如果行政院跟其所屬的機關"},{"start":7474.26,"end":7477.26,"text":"沒有任何人做所謂的關說指示跟介入"},{"start":7477.26,"end":7480.26,"text":"那就應該能夠完整的提供資料"},{"start":7480.26,"end":7482.26,"text":"接受國會跟社會的檢驗"},{"start":7482.26,"end":7485.26,"text":"而不是一直反覆你們說程序合法"},{"start":7485.26,"end":7488.26,"text":"可是外界的疑慮還是在"},{"start":7488.26,"end":7491.26,"text":"那這個部分您是否能夠承諾呢"},{"start":7491.26,"end":7494.26,"text":"是 非常謝謝委員的這個指正"},{"start":7494.26,"end":7498.26,"text":"那對於大院這一邊的這個所知"},{"start":7498.26,"end":7501.26,"text":"我們一定都是在合法合規的範圍裡面"},{"start":7501.26,"end":7503.26,"text":"盡全力的來提供"},{"start":7503.26,"end":7504.26,"text":"那至於剛剛提到"},{"start":7504.26,"end":7505.26,"text":"就是說您承諾這一案"},{"start":7505.26,"end":7508.26,"text":"如果我們針對剛委員的資訊來所知"},{"start":7508.26,"end":7509.26,"text":"就是這裡面"},{"start":7509.26,"end":7510.26,"text":"這裡面有涉及到"},{"start":7510.26,"end":7512.26,"text":"譬如說他的申請文件裡面"},{"start":7512.26,"end":7515.26,"text":"有涉及到公司的營業秘密"},{"start":7515.26,"end":7517.26,"text":"這個我們同仁提供就會好"},{"start":7517.26,"end":7519.26,"text":"應該我們沒有要求這個部分"},{"start":7519.26,"end":7520.26,"text":"而是整個國發會"},{"start":7520.26,"end":7522.26,"text":"在本席剛才所講的那幾個要素"},{"start":7522.26,"end":7524.26,"text":"你們的處理"},{"start":7524.26,"end":7526.26,"text":"然後跟你們講程序合法嘛"},{"start":7526.26,"end":7529.26,"text":"那我們就來確認一下你們講的程序合法"},{"start":7529.26,"end":7530.26,"text":"那每一個要件"},{"start":7530.26,"end":7533.26,"text":"我想我們就更細節的來做一些"},{"start":7533.26,"end":7535.26,"text":"這個查詢跟認定"},{"start":7535.26,"end":7538.26,"text":"那我想會讓外界的疑慮減低一點嗎"},{"start":7538.26,"end":7539.26,"text":"好不好"},{"start":7539.26,"end":7540.26,"text":"非常謝謝"},{"start":7540.26,"end":7543.26,"text":"就是不涉及這一些營業秘密的這些"},{"start":7543.26,"end":7545.26,"text":"我們都會全力來提供"},{"start":7545.26,"end":7546.26,"text":"我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密"},{"start":7546.26,"end":7548.26,"text":"但申請文件裡面是有這些東西的"},{"start":7548.26,"end":7550.26,"text":"那公部門就是公部門"},{"start":7550.26,"end":7552.26,"text":"你們針對本席剛才所講的"},{"start":7552.26,"end":7555.26,"text":"應該在可以允許的範圍內"},{"start":7555.26,"end":7557.26,"text":"應該有一些分際跟考量嘛"},{"start":7557.26,"end":7558.26,"text":"那我們一定全力提供"},{"start":7558.26,"end":7559.26,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7559.26,"end":7562.26,"text":"那最後本來本席也是針對這一案"},{"start":7562.26,"end":7563.26,"text":"請各機關"},{"start":7563.26,"end":7565.26,"text":"那雖然監察院沒有在"},{"start":7565.26,"end":7567.26,"text":"而分別就法律的試用"},{"start":7567.26,"end":7570.26,"text":"還有監督的調查跟審查的透明"},{"start":7570.26,"end":7573.26,"text":"那希望後續能夠提供本席研究室"},{"start":7573.26,"end":7576.26,"text":"一個比較明確的這個答覆好不好"},{"start":7576.26,"end":7577.26,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7577.26,"end":7578.26,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7578.26,"end":7579.26,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7579.26,"end":7580.26,"text":"謝謝林謙琦委員"},{"start":7580.26,"end":7582.26,"text":"那接下來審發會委員"},{"start":7582.26,"end":7583.26,"text":"審發會委員"},{"start":7583.26,"end":7584.26,"text":"審發會委員不在"},{"start":7584.26,"end":7585.26,"text":"林沛祥委員"},{"start":7585.26,"end":7586.26,"text":"林沛祥委員"},{"start":7586.26,"end":7588.26,"text":"林沛祥委員不在"},{"start":7588.26,"end":7591.26,"text":"那接下來有請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":7594.69,"end":7596.69,"text":"你不用準備都可以講很好"},{"start":7596.99,"end":7598.99,"text":"專業"},{"start":7598.99,"end":7599.99,"text":"對"},{"start":7603.01,"end":7606.01,"text":"那請衛福部我們林靜怡林次長"},{"start":7606.01,"end":7607.01,"text":"好請林次長"},{"start":7610.77,"end":7611.77,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7611.94,"end":7612.94,"text":"次長我要來請教了"},{"start":7612.94,"end":7615.94,"text":"我看今天行政院也針對於"},{"start":7615.94,"end":7618.94,"text":"那個整個食品安全管理法"},{"start":7618.94,"end":7620.94,"text":"還有監察行政院會"},{"start":7620.94,"end":7623.94,"text":"接下來也要有修法"},{"start":7623.94,"end":7625.94,"text":"是不是你簡單講一下"},{"start":7625.94,"end":7626.94,"text":"你們再來"},{"start":7626.94,"end":7629.94,"text":"你們現在針對這次整個食安友"},{"start":7629.94,"end":7632.94,"text":"致癌物這樣的一個殘留超標"},{"start":7632.94,"end":7634.94,"text":"以後我們整個食安法的一個修法"},{"start":7634.94,"end":7635.94,"text":"你簡單看看"},{"start":7635.94,"end":7637.94,"text":"你真正要把這個漏洞"},{"start":7637.94,"end":7638.94,"text":"把它補起來的話"},{"start":7638.94,"end":7640.94,"text":"你的修法方向到底是怎樣"},{"start":7640.94,"end":7641.94,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":7641.94,"end":7644.94,"text":"我想這一次大家關注的食安法修法"},{"start":7644.94,"end":7646.94,"text":"那我們今天已經把修法的查案到"},{"start":7646.94,"end":7648.94,"text":"行政院院會去做討論"},{"start":7648.94,"end":7649.94,"text":"那主要幾個部分"},{"start":7649.94,"end":7653.94,"text":"我們這一次包含後面還有在網際網路的一些管理"},{"start":7653.94,"end":7655.94,"text":"所以我們總共修17條"},{"start":7655.94,"end":7660.94,"text":"另外還會再新增一個食品業者級認證認可"},{"start":7660.94,"end":7664.94,"text":"檢驗機構監測檢驗及通報管理辦法"},{"start":7664.94,"end":7665.94,"text":"簡單來講就是說"},{"start":7665.94,"end":7669.94,"text":"第一個部分我們再一次把中央跟地方兩邊"},{"start":7669.94,"end":7671.94,"text":"這個權責做個劃分"},{"start":7671.94,"end":7673.94,"text":"另外尤其是在明定就是說"},{"start":7673.94,"end":7675.94,"text":"在這種重大食品安全事件的時候"},{"start":7675.94,"end":7678.94,"text":"中央這邊我們來成立一個相關應變指揮"},{"start":7678.94,"end":7680.94,"text":"來統籌全國"},{"start":7680.94,"end":7681.94,"text":"因為這一次事實上就"},{"start":7681.94,"end":7685.94,"text":"對中央一些相關的範圍有些難以釐清"},{"start":7685.94,"end":7687.94,"text":"第二個部分很重要的事情就是"},{"start":7687.94,"end":7688.94,"text":"我們增訂食品業者"},{"start":7688.94,"end":7690.94,"text":"他要有食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":7690.94,"end":7693.94,"text":"其中一定範圍一定規模的食品業者"},{"start":7693.94,"end":7695.94,"text":"第一個他要自設實驗室"},{"start":7695.94,"end":7698.94,"text":"第二個他的自設實驗室要經過驗證"},{"start":7698.94,"end":7701.94,"text":"然後第三個就是這一次我們遇到會有延遲通報的問題"},{"start":7701.94,"end":7705.94,"text":"所以說在明定就是不論是被驗證的實驗室"},{"start":7705.94,"end":7708.94,"text":"或者是本身業者自主檢驗的實驗室"},{"start":7708.94,"end":7710.94,"text":"他都要在24小時之內"},{"start":7710.94,"end":7713.94,"text":"有發現問題的時候24小時之內要通報主管機關"},{"start":7713.94,"end":7715.94,"text":"我的問題就來了就很簡單"},{"start":7715.94,"end":7717.94,"text":"站在民眾的一個立場的話"},{"start":7717.94,"end":7720.94,"text":"就其實就是第一個食品業者"},{"start":7720.94,"end":7722.94,"text":"第二個你說我們有三級品管嘛"},{"start":7722.94,"end":7726.94,"text":"你第一級品管我業者我今天生產"},{"start":7726.94,"end":7727.94,"text":"我今天是一個製造商"},{"start":7727.94,"end":7730.94,"text":"不管我叫中聯或者叫什麼樣的一個大同意"},{"start":7730.94,"end":7731.94,"text":"叫什麼樣的一個廠商"},{"start":7731.94,"end":7733.94,"text":"我東西做出來以後"},{"start":7733.94,"end":7735.94,"text":"我要自主去做一個檢驗嘛"},{"start":7735.94,"end":7737.94,"text":"那檢驗完了以後該通報"},{"start":7737.94,"end":7740.94,"text":"我們這一次看的是該通報的他此言去做一個通報"},{"start":7740.94,"end":7743.94,"text":"那這一個地方我們現在改革的部分在哪裡"},{"start":7743.94,"end":7745.94,"text":"就是讓他24小時之內"},{"start":7745.94,"end":7747.94,"text":"他發現他的報告一場就要通報"},{"start":7747.94,"end":7748.94,"text":"就是要強制了"},{"start":7748.94,"end":7751.94,"text":"然後這家廠商自己廠商如果隱匿的話"},{"start":7751.94,"end":7753.94,"text":"有時候他是委託實驗室"},{"start":7753.94,"end":7755.94,"text":"實驗室24小時之內發現一場也要通報"},{"start":7755.94,"end":7758.94,"text":"那就變成到第二級委託第三班公正單位的部分"},{"start":7758.94,"end":7761.94,"text":"也不能說我第三班公正單位我驗完以後"},{"start":7761.94,"end":7763.94,"text":"是你廠商來委託我的"},{"start":7763.94,"end":7765.94,"text":"所以我就交還給你這家廠商"},{"start":7765.94,"end":7766.94,"text":"然後你就可以放在抽屜"},{"start":7766.94,"end":7769.94,"text":"那個現在就是我們現在碰到的一個問題嘛"},{"start":7769.94,"end":7772.94,"text":"那所以這一支修法裡面這些都會去做一個解決"},{"start":7772.94,"end":7773.94,"text":"對全部做要求"},{"start":7773.94,"end":7774.94,"text":"那我問題來了"},{"start":7774.94,"end":7775.94,"text":"你說你這個監測計畫"},{"start":7775.94,"end":7778.94,"text":"監測計畫怎麼這麼做業你知道嗎"},{"start":7778.94,"end":7780.94,"text":"監測計畫你怎麼樣去要求他落實"},{"start":7780.94,"end":7783.94,"text":"我監測就有了我全部都有了"},{"start":7783.94,"end":7784.94,"text":"你有來幫我調查"},{"start":7784.94,"end":7786.94,"text":"你如果沒有幫我調查的時候"},{"start":7786.94,"end":7788.94,"text":"我只要這個監測的話"},{"start":7788.94,"end":7792.94,"text":"你怎麼樣去確保他一個真正的去落實"},{"start":7792.94,"end":7794.94,"text":"否則這個大家都可以寫得很漂亮"},{"start":7794.94,"end":7797.94,"text":"第二行第二行我要跟你簽交的就是說"},{"start":7797.94,"end":7800.94,"text":"你這個自主檢驗裡面"},{"start":7800.94,"end":7804.94,"text":"我們剛才說要求他去做一個強制的"},{"start":7804.94,"end":7807.94,"text":"但是有一個問題就是說我們要去追蹤"},{"start":7808.89,"end":7810.89,"text":"我們這個追蹤的一個系統啊"},{"start":7810.89,"end":7813.89,"text":"我相信衛福部現在食藥署應該就有了"},{"start":7813.89,"end":7814.89,"text":"你這個追蹤的一個系統"},{"start":7814.89,"end":7817.89,"text":"你像比如說我這一批生產出來"},{"start":7817.89,"end":7820.89,"text":"我今天去7月初生產出來之後"},{"start":7820.89,"end":7822.89,"text":"那你這些追蹤系統"},{"start":7822.89,"end":7825.89,"text":"我什麼時候要去申報"},{"start":7825.89,"end":7827.89,"text":"我這個會生產的"},{"start":7827.89,"end":7829.89,"text":"你時間點要放在什麼地方"},{"start":7829.89,"end":7832.89,"text":"你如果我今天7月1號生產出來"},{"start":7832.89,"end":7835.89,"text":"那我到下個月再來做一個申報的話"},{"start":7839.69,"end":7840.69,"text":"這個部分你怎麼處理"},{"start":7840.69,"end":7842.69,"text":"我們目前的規定是"},{"start":7842.69,"end":7844.69,"text":"下一個月的10號之前"},{"start":7844.69,"end":7845.69,"text":"是 問題來了"},{"start":7845.69,"end":7847.69,"text":"我說次長我的問題就這麼簡單"},{"start":7847.69,"end":7849.69,"text":"我站在消費者的立場"},{"start":7849.69,"end":7850.69,"text":"我們現在的政府部門"},{"start":7850.69,"end":7852.69,"text":"我們相關的一個規定是說"},{"start":7852.69,"end":7853.69,"text":"我生產出來以後"},{"start":7853.69,"end":7856.69,"text":"我下個月10號我要來做申報"},{"start":7856.69,"end":7859.69,"text":"萬一這一批生產出來的馬上出問題"},{"start":7860.2,"end":7861.2,"text":"出問題以後"},{"start":7862.33,"end":7864.33,"text":"我下個月才申報喔"},{"start":7864.39,"end":7865.39,"text":"你到時候你說要追蹤"},{"start":7865.39,"end":7866.39,"text":"你要去勾稽"},{"start":7866.39,"end":7867.39,"text":"留什麼東西"},{"start":7867.39,"end":7869.39,"text":"哪怕你有大數據"},{"start":7869.39,"end":7870.39,"text":"哪怕你有AI"},{"start":7870.39,"end":7871.39,"text":"都在那裡等著"},{"start":7871.39,"end":7872.39,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":7872.39,"end":7875.39,"text":"這個部分我們在相關的執法規"},{"start":7875.39,"end":7876.39,"text":"我們再去補強這一塊"},{"start":7876.39,"end":7877.39,"text":"就是我們會這一次"},{"start":7877.39,"end":7879.39,"text":"當然第一個事情是針對"},{"start":7879.39,"end":7881.39,"text":"一定規模的相關的業者"},{"start":7881.39,"end":7883.39,"text":"我們這邊剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":7883.39,"end":7886.39,"text":"他的這一個就是製程相關"},{"start":7886.39,"end":7887.39,"text":"我們要求他的部分"},{"start":7887.39,"end":7889.39,"text":"我們會做中央這邊他的製程"},{"start":7889.39,"end":7890.39,"text":"還有相關的這個"},{"start":7890.39,"end":7893.39,"text":"自訂的檢驗辦法等等監測計畫"},{"start":7893.39,"end":7894.39,"text":"要由中央來核定"},{"start":7894.39,"end":7896.39,"text":"後續地方政府才比較有辦法去查"},{"start":7896.39,"end":7897.39,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":7897.39,"end":7899.39,"text":"剛剛所提到如果是像這一類業者"},{"start":7899.39,"end":7901.39,"text":"他的登錄追蹤系統這個部分"},{"start":7901.39,"end":7902.39,"text":"我們把它縮短他的時間"},{"start":7902.39,"end":7903.39,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這件事"},{"start":7903.39,"end":7904.39,"text":"其實這一次"},{"start":7904.39,"end":7906.39,"text":"你看這朝偉很用心"},{"start":7906.39,"end":7909.39,"text":"把各部會連法務部也都找來了"},{"start":7909.39,"end":7910.39,"text":"連政部長也來"},{"start":7910.39,"end":7912.39,"text":"我為什麼不叫他上來你不知道"},{"start":7912.39,"end":7913.39,"text":"他上去拿書"},{"start":7913.39,"end":7915.39,"text":"一半上去都要質詢監督"},{"start":7915.39,"end":7917.39,"text":"他這次上去我算要打他一頓"},{"start":7917.39,"end":7919.39,"text":"因為確實他這是非常一個"},{"start":7919.39,"end":7920.39,"text":"法務部非常地迅速"},{"start":7920.39,"end":7922.39,"text":"馬上通令高檢署"},{"start":7922.39,"end":7924.39,"text":"那因為這涉及到全國各個縣市裡面"},{"start":7924.39,"end":7926.39,"text":"各個地檢署所管轄的"},{"start":7926.39,"end":7928.39,"text":"所以高檢署這樣"},{"start":7928.39,"end":7930.39,"text":"部長一個下令給高檢署"},{"start":7930.39,"end":7933.39,"text":"高檢署叫地檢署馬上動起來以後"},{"start":7933.39,"end":7934.39,"text":"這次我們說很糟糕"},{"start":7934.39,"end":7938.39,"text":"6月30號那其實收到通報"},{"start":7938.39,"end":7940.39,"text":"7月1號行政部門就動起來了"},{"start":7940.39,"end":7942.39,"text":"這個硬要去講糟糕"},{"start":7942.39,"end":7945.39,"text":"這個其實是都過度的政治上的一個攻防"},{"start":7945.39,"end":7948.39,"text":"所以政務部長雖然在那裡也要給你們學習"},{"start":7948.39,"end":7949.39,"text":"就是說好到最後法務部這次"},{"start":7949.39,"end":7951.39,"text":"確實是非常的一個迅速"},{"start":7951.39,"end":7953.39,"text":"但重點我還是覺得"},{"start":7953.39,"end":7954.39,"text":"這次修法裡面"},{"start":7954.39,"end":7957.39,"text":"我們也不是改個名詞而已"},{"start":7957.39,"end":7959.39,"text":"你像比如說你那個41條裡面"},{"start":7959.39,"end":7961.39,"text":"我們這個風險的一個查核"},{"start":7961.39,"end":7962.39,"text":"對"},{"start":7962.39,"end":7963.39,"text":"你現在跟他說我們現在"},{"start":7963.39,"end":7965.39,"text":"這個風險導向的一個查核"},{"start":7965.39,"end":7967.39,"text":"本來在食安法41條裡面"},{"start":7967.39,"end":7970.39,"text":"你這個預警的查核抽樣"},{"start":7970.39,"end":7973.39,"text":"本來地方機關本來就可以去做一個突襲"},{"start":7973.39,"end":7974.39,"text":"是"},{"start":7974.39,"end":7975.39,"text":"我們在這次修法以後"},{"start":7975.39,"end":7976.39,"text":"除非你要去增加"},{"start":7976.39,"end":7977.39,"text":"比如說人力"},{"start":7977.39,"end":7980.39,"text":"你說查核的頻率次數增加"},{"start":7980.39,"end":7983.39,"text":"不然你這部分"},{"start":7983.39,"end":7985.39,"text":"我不知道說你多增加了以後"},{"start":7985.39,"end":7988.39,"text":"能產生什麼樣的一個效益"},{"start":7988.39,"end":7990.39,"text":"保安委員這個事情是這樣"},{"start":7990.39,"end":7992.39,"text":"我們這一次會在第41條"},{"start":7992.39,"end":7993.39,"text":"我們會把它"},{"start":7993.39,"end":7995.39,"text":"之前是得"},{"start":7995.39,"end":7996.39,"text":"這一次我們就是說"},{"start":7996.39,"end":7998.39,"text":"他地方政府地方主管機關"},{"start":7998.39,"end":8001.39,"text":"應配合辦理相關的這些措施"},{"start":8001.39,"end":8005.39,"text":"包含進行到這個食品業者的內部"},{"start":8005.39,"end":8006.39,"text":"他的廠商內部"},{"start":8006.39,"end":8008.39,"text":"去進行相關的調查跟檢查"},{"start":8008.39,"end":8010.39,"text":"那查核之前可以不用事先通知"},{"start":8010.39,"end":8011.39,"text":"他就進去"},{"start":8011.39,"end":8012.39,"text":"等於是一個突襲"},{"start":8012.39,"end":8013.39,"text":"好那另外的話"},{"start":8013.39,"end":8015.39,"text":"我們過去都是讓他自己自主"},{"start":8015.39,"end":8016.39,"text":"那地方主管機關"},{"start":8016.39,"end":8018.39,"text":"我們這邊也是尊重地方主管機關"},{"start":8018.39,"end":8019.39,"text":"他們去查的時間"},{"start":8019.39,"end":8021.39,"text":"不過這一次我們接下來對於特定"},{"start":8021.39,"end":8023.39,"text":"或者像這一類影響比較重大的"},{"start":8023.39,"end":8025.39,"text":"一些食品的這個業者"},{"start":8025.39,"end":8028.39,"text":"那我們會訂定他的檢查的頻率"},{"start":8028.39,"end":8029.39,"text":"頻次會加強"},{"start":8029.39,"end":8031.39,"text":"然後也會把這個部分請地方主管機關"},{"start":8031.39,"end":8034.39,"text":"做比較強頻次的去做檢驗"},{"start":8034.39,"end":8035.39,"text":"還有一個"},{"start":8035.39,"end":8036.39,"text":"我本席認為一個"},{"start":8036.39,"end":8037.39,"text":"很嚴肅的一個問題"},{"start":8037.39,"end":8038.39,"text":"就是說"},{"start":8038.39,"end":8040.39,"text":"這一次我們本來是全面性的"},{"start":8040.39,"end":8042.39,"text":"預防性的一個下架"},{"start":8042.39,"end":8043.39,"text":"是"},{"start":8043.39,"end":8044.39,"text":"全面性預防下架"},{"start":8044.39,"end":8045.39,"text":"他當然目的就是要確保"},{"start":8045.39,"end":8046.39,"text":"國人的一個健康"},{"start":8046.39,"end":8048.39,"text":"但是也會碰到一個問題"},{"start":8048.39,"end":8049.39,"text":"你下架完以後"},{"start":8051.03,"end":8054.03,"text":"這一排的全部都是上游廠商"},{"start":8054.03,"end":8055.03,"text":"譬如說他叫做中聯"},{"start":8055.03,"end":8056.03,"text":"泰山"},{"start":8056.03,"end":8057.03,"text":"福壽"},{"start":8057.03,"end":8058.03,"text":"福茂"},{"start":8058.03,"end":8059.03,"text":"我們這裡"},{"start":8059.03,"end":8061.03,"text":"那裡叫做下游"},{"start":8061.03,"end":8063.03,"text":"你全面都預防性下架以後"},{"start":8063.03,"end":8065.03,"text":"他們客家在吃青的"},{"start":8065.03,"end":8066.03,"text":"他們這裡都是食品"},{"start":8066.03,"end":8067.03,"text":"最下游的一個業者"},{"start":8067.03,"end":8070.03,"text":"那你如何讓他去做一個上架"},{"start":8070.03,"end":8073.03,"text":"現在你說這19批裡面"},{"start":8073.03,"end":8076.03,"text":"你認為抽檢完的安全無虞"},{"start":8076.03,"end":8078.03,"text":"可是有地方政府就認為說"},{"start":8078.03,"end":8079.03,"text":"真相還沒有清楚"},{"start":8079.03,"end":8081.03,"text":"我不讓他上架"},{"start":8081.03,"end":8083.03,"text":"對這些下游廠商來講的話"},{"start":8083.03,"end":8086.03,"text":"你整個經濟的交易的一個秩序"},{"start":8086.03,"end":8088.03,"text":"你生產活動你也要讓他繼續"},{"start":8088.03,"end":8090.03,"text":"這是第一個問題"},{"start":8090.03,"end":8091.03,"text":"那第二個問題就是說"},{"start":8091.03,"end":8093.03,"text":"地方如果說我就不要"},{"start":8093.03,"end":8094.03,"text":"你要怎麼辦"},{"start":8095.24,"end":8096.24,"text":"第三項"},{"start":8096.24,"end":8098.24,"text":"有沒有辦法溝通到說"},{"start":8098.24,"end":8099.24,"text":"政府來確保"},{"start":8099.24,"end":8101.24,"text":"只要上架的這一些"},{"start":8101.24,"end":8104.24,"text":"全部都是符合食品健康安全的"},{"start":8104.24,"end":8105.24,"text":"請教次長"},{"start":8106.51,"end":8108.51,"text":"我們謝謝委員"},{"start":8108.51,"end":8110.51,"text":"我們其實就是之前"},{"start":8110.51,"end":8112.51,"text":"我們把所有能夠找到的"},{"start":8112.51,"end":8114.51,"text":"這19批相關的後續的檢體"},{"start":8114.51,"end":8115.51,"text":"但不是中聯的"},{"start":8115.51,"end":8116.51,"text":"就中聯提供的我們不信"},{"start":8116.51,"end":8118.51,"text":"我們由其他另外三家"},{"start":8118.51,"end":8120.51,"text":"流的原油原樣來做檢驗"},{"start":8120.51,"end":8122.51,"text":"那現在就是確保說"},{"start":8122.51,"end":8124.51,"text":"這19批我們驗到的這些品項"},{"start":8124.51,"end":8126.51,"text":"它其實都符合現在"},{"start":8126.51,"end":8127.51,"text":"我們對於食安法裡面"},{"start":8127.51,"end":8128.51,"text":"對於油脂的標準"},{"start":8128.51,"end":8130.51,"text":"所以這19批驗過"},{"start":8130.51,"end":8131.51,"text":"就是符合標準"},{"start":8131.51,"end":8132.51,"text":"所以我們說"},{"start":8132.51,"end":8134.51,"text":"它可以能夠重新上架"},{"start":8134.51,"end":8135.51,"text":"因為之前是預防性下架"},{"start":8135.51,"end":8136.51,"text":"那就希望謝謝委員考慮到"},{"start":8136.51,"end":8137.51,"text":"因為這裡面其實"},{"start":8137.51,"end":8139.51,"text":"大的這幾家油廠"},{"start":8139.51,"end":8141.51,"text":"當然我們跟我們謝謝法務部協助我們"},{"start":8141.51,"end":8143.51,"text":"我們要做比較強的這個克責"},{"start":8143.51,"end":8145.51,"text":"但是A卡加小型食品廠"},{"start":8145.51,"end":8146.51,"text":"事實上是很辛苦"},{"start":8146.51,"end":8148.51,"text":"因為他們根本沒有辦法"},{"start":8148.51,"end":8150.51,"text":"知道上面那邊發生這樣的事情"},{"start":8150.51,"end":8151.51,"text":"所以後來預防性下架之後"},{"start":8151.51,"end":8152.51,"text":"我們儘速的"},{"start":8152.51,"end":8153.51,"text":"我們食藥署這邊"},{"start":8153.51,"end":8154.51,"text":"儘速把這邊檢驗驗完"},{"start":8154.51,"end":8155.51,"text":"那這19批我們希望"},{"start":8155.51,"end":8157.51,"text":"我們今天會再跟地方衛生局"},{"start":8157.51,"end":8158.51,"text":"再做一些溝通"},{"start":8158.51,"end":8160.51,"text":"就是說把相關的數據跟說明"},{"start":8160.51,"end":8162.51,"text":"那我們自己委託的調查小組"},{"start":8162.51,"end":8164.51,"text":"也會儘速的把調查報告"},{"start":8164.51,"end":8165.51,"text":"能夠來公開"},{"start":8165.51,"end":8167.51,"text":"那讓大家能夠更有信心"},{"start":8167.51,"end":8169.51,"text":"同時也保障這些合法的業者"},{"start":8169.51,"end":8170.51,"text":"他們的權益"},{"start":8170.51,"end":8171.51,"text":"我認為啊 次長"},{"start":8171.51,"end":8172.51,"text":"我認為這一次其實"},{"start":8172.51,"end":8173.51,"text":"真正的一個問題"},{"start":8173.51,"end":8175.51,"text":"出在於說叫做信任"},{"start":8176.96,"end":8178.96,"text":"民眾對政府信任"},{"start":8178.96,"end":8180.96,"text":"是不是有所減損"},{"start":8180.96,"end":8181.96,"text":"你像譬如說不要小看"},{"start":8181.96,"end":8182.96,"text":"你說這19批"},{"start":8182.96,"end":8184.96,"text":"19批我們講的是中聯喔"},{"start":8184.96,"end":8188.96,"text":"可是你19批你到福茂到福壽太山分出去"},{"start":8188.96,"end":8191.96,"text":"你搞不好又變成500 600批囉"},{"start":8191.96,"end":8193.96,"text":"那你這三家500 600批"},{"start":8193.96,"end":8195.96,"text":"到這些下游廠商以後"},{"start":8195.96,"end":8197.96,"text":"搞不好變幾千批囉"},{"start":8197.96,"end":8199.96,"text":"那對我第一線的地方政策"},{"start":8199.96,"end":8200.96,"text":"假設我是高雄市政府的話"},{"start":8200.96,"end":8202.96,"text":"我靠的那麼一個人力"},{"start":8202.96,"end":8203.96,"text":"人家給你買車的"},{"start":8203.96,"end":8204.96,"text":"有這個問題啊"},{"start":8204.96,"end":8206.96,"text":"所以我看地方政府"},{"start":8206.96,"end":8208.96,"text":"他現在有所抗拒"},{"start":8208.96,"end":8209.96,"text":"他只是找出那個理由"},{"start":8209.96,"end":8210.96,"text":"你看起來覺得"},{"start":8210.96,"end":8211.96,"text":"不用擔心啊"},{"start":8211.96,"end":8212.96,"text":"我的政府"},{"start":8212.96,"end":8214.96,"text":"中央政府好像把你關保險"},{"start":8214.96,"end":8216.96,"text":"但我覺得最重要的是說"},{"start":8216.96,"end":8218.96,"text":"會搞得他們人羊馬翻的問題啦"},{"start":8218.96,"end":8220.96,"text":"所以應該啊"},{"start":8220.96,"end":8223.96,"text":"我們除了確保民眾食的安全"},{"start":8223.96,"end":8226.96,"text":"就為食品安全來做一個把關以外啊"},{"start":8226.96,"end":8229.96,"text":"最重要的是如何去確保"},{"start":8229.96,"end":8231.96,"text":"上架的東西"},{"start":8231.96,"end":8232.96,"text":"你既然沒有人讓他上架嘛"},{"start":8232.96,"end":8234.96,"text":"這時候你就要上錢了"},{"start":8234.96,"end":8236.96,"text":"你上架你就要跟他說"},{"start":8236.96,"end":8238.96,"text":"你民眾去從架上所買的東西"},{"start":8238.96,"end":8240.96,"text":"全部都符合標準的喔"},{"start":8240.96,"end":8242.96,"text":"第三就是說"},{"start":8242.96,"end":8244.96,"text":"那些下游業者"},{"start":8244.96,"end":8246.96,"text":"他們客家在生存的"},{"start":8246.96,"end":8247.96,"text":"怎麼辦"},{"start":8247.96,"end":8248.96,"text":"政府很困難"},{"start":8248.96,"end":8250.96,"text":"政府你必須要保障食的安全"},{"start":8250.96,"end":8252.96,"text":"你政府又要去維護"},{"start":8252.96,"end":8254.96,"text":"整個經濟的一個"},{"start":8254.96,"end":8256.96,"text":"正常的活動的一個秩序"},{"start":8256.96,"end":8257.96,"text":"考驗你們啊"},{"start":8257.96,"end":8258.96,"text":"這個都是在建立整個"},{"start":8258.96,"end":8260.96,"text":"人民對政府的一個"},{"start":8260.96,"end":8262.96,"text":"這一次食安危機裡面的一個信任感"},{"start":8262.96,"end":8264.96,"text":"加油一下好不好"},{"start":8264.96,"end":8266.96,"text":"中央跟地方其實就是科學的一個依據啦"},{"start":8266.96,"end":8268.96,"text":"你們專業對專業去做一個溝通啦"},{"start":8268.96,"end":8270.96,"text":"那地方政府他受到的這一些啊"},{"start":8270.96,"end":8272.96,"text":"他們人力上的不足啊"},{"start":8272.96,"end":8274.96,"text":"或者他的一個擔憂啊"},{"start":8274.96,"end":8276.96,"text":"一個人一個人講清楚啦"},{"start":8276.96,"end":8278.96,"text":"講清楚"},{"start":8278.96,"end":8280.96,"text":"專業對專業有合好的一個建股後"},{"start":8280.96,"end":8282.96,"text":"那個信心就會建立起來"},{"start":8282.96,"end":8284.96,"text":"我們也剛才交給這張報告"},{"start":8284.96,"end":8286.96,"text":"比較有意義啦好不好"},{"start":8286.96,"end":8288.96,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8288.96,"end":8290.96,"text":"但是食安法裡面後來"},{"start":8290.96,"end":8292.96,"text":"後面會在第二條那邊"},{"start":8292.96,"end":8294.96,"text":"第二條加上就是像這一類重大事件"},{"start":8294.96,"end":8296.96,"text":"中央這邊變成是一個中央"},{"start":8296.96,"end":8298.96,"text":"有一個指揮中心的概念"},{"start":8298.96,"end":8300.96,"text":"我們跟地方政府我們這樣有一個平行平台"},{"start":8300.96,"end":8302.96,"text":"一起把資訊做一個更好的直接溝通"},{"start":8302.96,"end":8304.96,"text":"對地方政府協助會比較大"},{"start":8304.96,"end":8306.96,"text":"你這如果創業好事後"},{"start":8306.96,"end":8308.96,"text":"手上的油漆也會被你閉起來"},{"start":8308.96,"end":8310.96,"text":"你創業好事後"},{"start":8310.96,"end":8312.96,"text":"人很多去你那邊發發大家也沒民主好不好"},{"start":8312.96,"end":8314.96,"text":"OK謝謝"},{"start":8315.54,"end":8317.54,"text":"好謝謝莊少偉"},{"start":8317.25,"end":8319.25,"text":"接下來有請范雲委員發言"},{"start":8321.63,"end":8323.63,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8327.84,"end":8329.84,"text":"好謝謝莊少偉"},{"start":8329.84,"end":8331.84,"text":"有請次長林次長"},{"start":8331.84,"end":8333.84,"text":"有請衛福部林次長"},{"start":8341.21,"end":8343.21,"text":"委員早"},{"start":8343.21,"end":8345.21,"text":"次長早安"},{"start":8345.21,"end":8347.21,"text":"我看你們的報告中有講到就是"},{"start":8347.21,"end":8349.21,"text":"衛福部有協助消費者"},{"start":8349.21,"end":8351.21,"text":"這個大家新聞也有看到"},{"start":8351.21,"end":8353.21,"text":"退貨之外"},{"start":8353.21,"end":8355.21,"text":"也有協助團體訴訟是不是"},{"start":8355.21,"end":8357.21,"text":"是我們要協助團體"},{"start":8357.21,"end":8359.21,"text":"我們之後會用食安基金這邊"},{"start":8359.21,"end":8361.21,"text":"食安基金本來就有協助消費者的團體訴訟"},{"start":8361.21,"end":8363.21,"text":"好那為什麼特別問這個"},{"start":8363.21,"end":8365.21,"text":"因為今天早上這個有很多媒體"},{"start":8365.21,"end":8367.21,"text":"問我說政府會不會協助"},{"start":8367.21,"end":8369.21,"text":"就是團體訴訟"},{"start":8369.21,"end":8371.21,"text":"消費者訴訟"},{"start":8371.21,"end":8373.21,"text":"我說我們看到的是會"},{"start":8373.21,"end":8375.21,"text":"不過顯然就是媒體記者都不知道"},{"start":8375.21,"end":8377.21,"text":"然後這個等於是"},{"start":8377.21,"end":8379.21,"text":"衛福部是怎麼樣協助"},{"start":8379.21,"end":8381.21,"text":"主要就是經費的支持嗎"},{"start":8381.21,"end":8383.21,"text":"就是用食安基金"},{"start":8383.21,"end":8385.21,"text":"來等於是公費訴訟是不是"},{"start":8385.21,"end":8387.21,"text":"委員這個我們事實上是依照"},{"start":8387.21,"end":8389.21,"text":"消費者保護法這邊所以是消保處"},{"start":8389.21,"end":8391.21,"text":"來啟動然後我們"},{"start":8391.21,"end":8393.21,"text":"食安基金這邊因為食安基金過去"},{"start":8393.21,"end":8395.21,"text":"就可以來相關給付我們食安基金"},{"start":8395.21,"end":8397.21,"text":"裡面可以對於補助消費者"},{"start":8397.21,"end":8399.21,"text":"保護團體"},{"start":8399.21,"end":8401.21,"text":"食品衛生安全事件"},{"start":8401.21,"end":8403.21,"text":"依消費者保護法的規定"},{"start":8403.21,"end":8405.21,"text":"來提相關訴訟"},{"start":8405.21,"end":8407.21,"text":"那我們這邊會補助就是訴訟的"},{"start":8407.21,"end":8409.21,"text":"律師報酬跟訴訟相關費用"},{"start":8409.21,"end":8411.21,"text":"是補助還是全額出"},{"start":8411.21,"end":8413.21,"text":"是我們是補助"},{"start":8413.21,"end":8415.21,"text":"這個律師報酬跟訴訟相關的費用"},{"start":8415.21,"end":8417.21,"text":"由食安基金這邊"},{"start":8417.21,"end":8419.21,"text":"由食安基金這邊"},{"start":8419.21,"end":8421.21,"text":"這個訴訟的啟動是從"},{"start":8421.21,"end":8423.21,"text":"這個消費者保護法"},{"start":8423.21,"end":8425.21,"text":"所以我們會從我們這邊是消保處協助"},{"start":8425.21,"end":8427.21,"text":"好那我想就是盡量能夠"},{"start":8427.21,"end":8429.21,"text":"公費訴訟就是說"},{"start":8429.21,"end":8431.21,"text":"全額補助就盡可能"},{"start":8431.21,"end":8433.21,"text":"因為我想就是政府為消費者"},{"start":8433.21,"end":8435.21,"text":"就是得回他的"},{"start":8435.21,"end":8437.21,"text":"權利因為他訴訟的對象應該是"},{"start":8437.21,"end":8439.21,"text":"廠商嘛對對那我想"},{"start":8439.21,"end":8441.21,"text":"這是非常重要的事喔那也希望能夠"},{"start":8441.21,"end":8443.21,"text":"讓社會大眾知道"},{"start":8443.21,"end":8445.21,"text":"我們在包含也跟委員補充"},{"start":8445.21,"end":8447.21,"text":"包含之前保齡查試事件等等"},{"start":8447.21,"end":8449.21,"text":"這一類的那他事實上"},{"start":8449.21,"end":8451.21,"text":"後來都會再進到我們"},{"start":8451.21,"end":8453.21,"text":"食安基金這邊審議那這些"},{"start":8453.21,"end":8455.21,"text":"進來之後會在我們食安基金的"},{"start":8455.21,"end":8457.21,"text":"運用管理監督小組裡面去做審議"},{"start":8457.21,"end":8459.21,"text":"好謝謝喔"},{"start":8459.21,"end":8461.21,"text":"那我今天主要是針對喔這個"},{"start":8461.21,"end":8463.21,"text":"食安法修法的草案喔"},{"start":8463.21,"end":8465.21,"text":"那想跟次長討論"},{"start":8465.21,"end":8467.21,"text":"那修法方向其實我們看你們的"},{"start":8467.21,"end":8469.21,"text":"新聞稿喔還有今天的"},{"start":8469.21,"end":8471.21,"text":"報告中都有講喔那會有源頭"},{"start":8471.21,"end":8473.21,"text":"啊製程然後異常通報品質"},{"start":8473.21,"end":8475.21,"text":"管理跟數位治理"},{"start":8475.21,"end":8477.21,"text":"的部分喔那我想"},{"start":8477.21,"end":8479.21,"text":"回來談喔就是我國"},{"start":8479.21,"end":8481.21,"text":"的食安治理高度依賴"},{"start":8481.21,"end":8483.21,"text":"我說過去喔事後抽驗"},{"start":8483.21,"end":8485.21,"text":"喔那只要成品"},{"start":8485.21,"end":8487.21,"text":"不合格下架裁罰喔"},{"start":8487.21,"end":8489.21,"text":"那這次中林案顯示"},{"start":8489.21,"end":8491.21,"text":"其實這個前端的製程"},{"start":8491.21,"end":8493.21,"text":"管理就是出了問題喔"},{"start":8493.21,"end":8495.21,"text":"就如同喔"},{"start":8495.21,"end":8497.21,"text":"我們就是衛福部"},{"start":8497.21,"end":8499.21,"text":"給的報告一樣喔那我想來看看"},{"start":8499.21,"end":8501.21,"text":"就是說這一次的修法"},{"start":8501.21,"end":8503.21,"text":"到底在製程的管理"},{"start":8503.21,"end":8505.21,"text":"的部分是不是能夠完整"},{"start":8505.21,"end":8507.21,"text":"有效我想這會是我們"},{"start":8507.21,"end":8509.21,"text":"關心的重點喔"},{"start":8509.21,"end":8511.21,"text":"那很多人都有提到日本的"},{"start":8511.21,"end":8513.21,"text":"做法其實這個所謂的"},{"start":8513.21,"end":8515.21,"text":"HACCP喔那它原則上是"},{"start":8515.21,"end":8517.21,"text":"普及於所有的食品"},{"start":8517.21,"end":8519.21,"text":"業者它強調的是"},{"start":8519.21,"end":8521.21,"text":"預防性的製程管理"},{"start":8521.21,"end":8523.21,"text":"那我們有查過其實這一次"},{"start":8525.21,"end":8527.21,"text":"食用油紙工廠"},{"start":8527.21,"end":8529.21,"text":"也應該要符合HACCP啊"},{"start":8529.21,"end":8531.21,"text":"所以是台灣也有HACCP"},{"start":8531.21,"end":8533.21,"text":"那可不可以請次長講一下"},{"start":8533.21,"end":8535.21,"text":"為什麼日本有HACCP"},{"start":8535.21,"end":8537.21,"text":"可是流程管理"},{"start":8537.21,"end":8539.21,"text":"就能夠避免"},{"start":8539.21,"end":8541.21,"text":"像這一次的這個隱匿"},{"start":8541.21,"end":8543.21,"text":"那可是台灣的HACCP"},{"start":8543.21,"end":8545.21,"text":"那在執行上"},{"start":8545.21,"end":8547.21,"text":"還是沒有辦法向日本做到"},{"start":8547.21,"end":8549.21,"text":"因為日本我們看到它不做"},{"start":8549.21,"end":8551.21,"text":"最後的產品的抽驗"},{"start":8551.21,"end":8553.21,"text":"它做的是流程管理耶"},{"start":8553.21,"end":8555.21,"text":"那到底台灣跟日本的制度"},{"start":8555.21,"end":8557.21,"text":"是哪裡有差異"},{"start":8557.21,"end":8559.21,"text":"應該如何檢討經濟呢"},{"start":8559.21,"end":8561.21,"text":"日本對這個有沒有訂標準"},{"start":8561.21,"end":8563.21,"text":"日本沒有訂本扁皮標準"},{"start":8563.21,"end":8565.21,"text":"這個部分先跟委員補充"},{"start":8565.21,"end":8567.21,"text":"對這個我們有看到"},{"start":8567.21,"end":8569.21,"text":"它是做流程管理"},{"start":8569.21,"end":8571.21,"text":"因為它的流程就不會出現超標"},{"start":8571.21,"end":8573.21,"text":"其實這次的本扁皮"},{"start":8573.21,"end":8575.21,"text":"事實上就是它在HACCP裡面的"},{"start":8575.21,"end":8577.21,"text":"幾個管理的節點沒有處理好"},{"start":8577.21,"end":8579.21,"text":"那這個"},{"start":8579.21,"end":8581.21,"text":"那我們其實對於這個中聯這邊"},{"start":8581.21,"end":8583.21,"text":"事實上我們也在食安法裡面"},{"start":8583.21,"end":8585.21,"text":"再包含過去我們"},{"start":8585.21,"end":8587.21,"text":"這個111到114年"},{"start":8587.21,"end":8589.21,"text":"食藥署給地方政府"},{"start":8589.21,"end":8591.21,"text":"去地方對於食用油脂的"},{"start":8591.21,"end":8593.21,"text":"檢查裡面那個專案"},{"start":8593.21,"end":8595.21,"text":"就是做HACCP"},{"start":8595.21,"end":8597.21,"text":"好那我暫停在這"},{"start":8597.21,"end":8599.21,"text":"所以你的意思是說這一次中聯"},{"start":8599.21,"end":8601.21,"text":"就是HACCP裡面的"},{"start":8601.21,"end":8603.21,"text":"一些節點沒有處理好"},{"start":8603.21,"end":8605.21,"text":"那我們訂了HACCP"},{"start":8605.21,"end":8607.21,"text":"可是我們為什麼沒有辦法"},{"start":8607.21,"end":8609.21,"text":"管控到它那個節點"},{"start":8609.21,"end":8611.21,"text":"因為如果日本做的是"},{"start":8611.21,"end":8613.21,"text":"流程管理就不是"},{"start":8613.21,"end":8615.21,"text":"只有一套HACCP嗎"},{"start":8615.21,"end":8617.21,"text":"HACCP就是整個流程的管理"},{"start":8617.21,"end":8619.21,"text":"那相關的業者"},{"start":8619.21,"end":8621.21,"text":"他對於他自己的HACCP"},{"start":8621.21,"end":8623.21,"text":"內部要針對不論是從原料端"},{"start":8623.21,"end":8625.21,"text":"還有它中間的製程的"},{"start":8625.21,"end":8627.21,"text":"每一個中間的重要節點"},{"start":8627.21,"end":8629.21,"text":"他要去做重要的調整"},{"start":8629.21,"end":8631.21,"text":"他要去管控他的品質"},{"start":8631.21,"end":8633.21,"text":"確保他的品質每一次出來的品質"},{"start":8633.21,"end":8635.21,"text":"都能夠符合標準"},{"start":8635.21,"end":8637.21,"text":"好那這部分我還是不了解"},{"start":8637.21,"end":8639.21,"text":"那日本的管法跟我們的管法"},{"start":8639.21,"end":8640.21,"text":"哪裡不同"},{"start":8640.21,"end":8642.21,"text":"為什麼他的HACCP可以確定"},{"start":8642.21,"end":8644.21,"text":"就是中間的流程"},{"start":8644.21,"end":8648.21,"text":"就是說不會出問題被隱匿"},{"start":8648.21,"end":8650.21,"text":"可是我們台灣的卻會呢"},{"start":8650.21,"end":8652.21,"text":"我覺得HACCP他的那個"},{"start":8652.21,"end":8654.21,"text":"就是這是一個當然不同的"},{"start":8654.21,"end":8656.21,"text":"這一個食品的相關的管理"},{"start":8656.21,"end":8658.21,"text":"他都要符合他們那一個"},{"start":8658.21,"end":8660.21,"text":"那一種產品的HACCP"},{"start":8660.21,"end":8662.21,"text":"比方說我今天做油脂"},{"start":8662.21,"end":8664.21,"text":"我對我的油脂大豆油油脂"},{"start":8664.21,"end":8666.21,"text":"我的製程有一個HACCP的"},{"start":8666.21,"end":8668.21,"text":"管控監測計畫他要去寫"},{"start":8668.21,"end":8670.21,"text":"去做節點上的處理跟控制"},{"start":8670.21,"end":8672.21,"text":"那我們在食藥署這邊"},{"start":8672.21,"end":8674.21,"text":"請地方政府去做的也是這個HACCP"},{"start":8674.21,"end":8676.21,"text":"相關的節點的確保"},{"start":8676.21,"end":8678.21,"text":"他的他是不是符合我們對HACCP裡面"},{"start":8678.21,"end":8681.21,"text":"你某些節點或者是某些我們"},{"start":8681.21,"end":8683.21,"text":"像這次包含本便皮的一些濃度"},{"start":8683.21,"end":8685.21,"text":"他去做其中的確認"},{"start":8685.21,"end":8687.21,"text":"去確認說他是不是有符合他的HACCP"},{"start":8687.21,"end":8689.21,"text":"那簡單講回來就是說我們過去就有要求"},{"start":8689.21,"end":8692.21,"text":"這也是一個一直以來在推動的部分"},{"start":8692.21,"end":8694.21,"text":"但是其實當然對於這一次"},{"start":8694.21,"end":8696.21,"text":"我們未來在修法裡面會處理一個事情"},{"start":8696.21,"end":8698.21,"text":"像這次的油脂案因為他的量很大"},{"start":8698.21,"end":8700.21,"text":"再來他是一個相對就只有幾家"},{"start":8700.21,"end":8702.21,"text":"大的廠商在做這樣的事情"},{"start":8702.21,"end":8704.21,"text":"那他的這個製程HACCP的品管"},{"start":8704.21,"end":8706.21,"text":"又非常的複雜也非常的專業"},{"start":8706.21,"end":8709.21,"text":"所以我們未來在這一次的新的修法"},{"start":8709.21,"end":8711.21,"text":"第七條裡面我們會再訂定就是說"},{"start":8711.21,"end":8713.21,"text":"符合一定類別跟規模的"},{"start":8713.21,"end":8716.21,"text":"相關的食品業者他的這個HACCP"},{"start":8716.21,"end":8718.21,"text":"這一些他的監測計畫"},{"start":8718.21,"end":8720.21,"text":"要報請中央核定"},{"start":8720.21,"end":8722.21,"text":"核定之後我們會給地方政府讓他再針對"},{"start":8722.21,"end":8724.21,"text":"這樣的HACCP管控節點"},{"start":8724.21,"end":8726.21,"text":"去做他的監測去做他的檢查"},{"start":8726.21,"end":8728.21,"text":"你的意思是說我們修法後會針對"},{"start":8728.21,"end":8731.21,"text":"像這種影響就是消費者"},{"start":8731.21,"end":8734.21,"text":"很大的上游的就是大廠"},{"start":8734.21,"end":8738.21,"text":"那HACCP他必須要報中央認可是不是"},{"start":8738.21,"end":8740.21,"text":"我們跟地方政府在前兩天"},{"start":8740.21,"end":8742.21,"text":"我們跟地方政府討論的時候"},{"start":8742.21,"end":8744.21,"text":"我們這邊其實就是說本來我們是希望說"},{"start":8744.21,"end":8747.21,"text":"他因為我們原來食安法就有要求他們要"},{"start":8747.21,"end":8748.21,"text":"訂監測計畫"},{"start":8748.21,"end":8750.21,"text":"好但是大家這一次關切到就是"},{"start":8750.21,"end":8753.21,"text":"台灣的食品非常多種"},{"start":8753.21,"end":8755.21,"text":"食品業者非常大大小型都有"},{"start":8755.21,"end":8757.21,"text":"那像這一類大型而且影響盛據"},{"start":8757.21,"end":8759.21,"text":"全國性的這樣的產業"},{"start":8759.21,"end":8761.21,"text":"那我們會希望說他的監測計畫"},{"start":8761.21,"end":8762.21,"text":"要有一定程度的監管"},{"start":8762.21,"end":8764.21,"text":"那除了過去就是剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":8764.21,"end":8766.21,"text":"我們用專案請地方政府去做"},{"start":8766.21,"end":8768.21,"text":"後續的檢查之外我們要求前端"},{"start":8768.21,"end":8770.21,"text":"他就要送計畫上來"},{"start":8770.21,"end":8772.21,"text":"那我們會請專家幫我們核定之後"},{"start":8772.21,"end":8774.21,"text":"交給地方衛生局"},{"start":8774.21,"end":8776.21,"text":"他未來就針對專家核定過的"},{"start":8776.21,"end":8779.21,"text":"這個HACCP監測標準去做後續的檢驗"},{"start":8779.21,"end":8781.21,"text":"了解謝謝次長的說明"},{"start":8781.21,"end":8783.21,"text":"那我覺得回來看"},{"start":8783.21,"end":8786.21,"text":"就是我們會擔心的事情就是"},{"start":8786.21,"end":8789.21,"text":"目前的制度其實高度依賴業者自律"},{"start":8789.21,"end":8791.21,"text":"這個大家都已經講到了"},{"start":8791.21,"end":8793.21,"text":"就一開始不管是現在"},{"start":8793.21,"end":8796.21,"text":"也是有第三方驗證業者的食安制度"},{"start":8796.21,"end":8800.21,"text":"那他一開始向政府認證機構提出申請"},{"start":8800.21,"end":8802.21,"text":"有效期間就三年"},{"start":8802.21,"end":8804.21,"text":"那看起來中間也沒有人會"},{"start":8804.21,"end":8807.21,"text":"針對這個流程做管理這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":8807.21,"end":8809.21,"text":"中間其實還是要去做追蹤查驗"},{"start":8809.21,"end":8811.21,"text":"那地方政府這邊"},{"start":8811.21,"end":8813.21,"text":"這個稽查"},{"start":8813.21,"end":8815.21,"text":"他也要再送給第三方驗證機構"},{"start":8815.21,"end":8817.21,"text":"去做定期的追蹤查驗"},{"start":8817.21,"end":8820.21,"text":"那現在第三方驗證機構"},{"start":8820.21,"end":8822.21,"text":"並不會主動去查驗對不對"},{"start":8822.21,"end":8823.21,"text":"他是被動"},{"start":8823.21,"end":8825.21,"text":"他必須要去"},{"start":8825.22,"end":8827.22,"text":"我不請述次長"},{"start":8827.95,"end":8828.95,"text":"報告"},{"start":8828.95,"end":8830.95,"text":"目前這個第三級"},{"start":8830.95,"end":8832.95,"text":"第二級品管第三方驗證的部分是"},{"start":8832.95,"end":8834.95,"text":"食品業者規範"},{"start":8834.95,"end":8835.95,"text":"就是有公告的業別"},{"start":8835.95,"end":8838.95,"text":"他必須一定要來跟這個申請驗證"},{"start":8838.95,"end":8840.95,"text":"那效期是三年"},{"start":8840.95,"end":8841.95,"text":"那這個當中"},{"start":8841.95,"end":8843.95,"text":"驗證機構也一定要再去做追蹤查驗"},{"start":8843.95,"end":8844.95,"text":"每年"},{"start":8844.95,"end":8846.95,"text":"那這三年內就是"},{"start":8846.95,"end":8848.95,"text":"譬如說以這次中聯來講"},{"start":8848.95,"end":8851.95,"text":"他應該也得到那個三年的驗證證明書"},{"start":8851.95,"end":8852.95,"text":"是"},{"start":8852.95,"end":8853.95,"text":"那那個第三方驗證"},{"start":8853.95,"end":8855.95,"text":"有中間去有去查驗嗎"},{"start":8855.95,"end":8856.95,"text":"有"},{"start":8856.95,"end":8857.95,"text":"那第三方其實驗證的時候"},{"start":8857.95,"end":8858.95,"text":"當然就包含剛委員講到的"},{"start":8858.95,"end":8860.95,"text":"包含HACCP的點"},{"start":8860.95,"end":8862.95,"text":"還有他在自主檢驗的頻率上面"},{"start":8862.95,"end":8863.95,"text":"有沒有依照現行規範"},{"start":8863.95,"end":8865.95,"text":"所以這次中聯的第三方驗證"},{"start":8865.95,"end":8866.95,"text":"也有做假嗎"},{"start":8866.95,"end":8868.95,"text":"要不然為什麼會出問題"},{"start":8868.95,"end":8871.95,"text":"你說這個中聯得到的那個"},{"start":8871.95,"end":8873.95,"text":"是有三年的效期"},{"start":8873.95,"end":8874.95,"text":"那第三方驗證"},{"start":8874.95,"end":8876.95,"text":"目前依照規定他也要去查驗"},{"start":8876.95,"end":8877.95,"text":"是這樣沒錯"},{"start":8877.95,"end":8878.95,"text":"是"},{"start":8878.95,"end":8879.95,"text":"跟委員報告的部分"},{"start":8879.95,"end":8881.95,"text":"所以在這一次食安法的修正當中"},{"start":8881.95,"end":8883.95,"text":"其實我們也強化了這個驗證機構"},{"start":8883.95,"end":8886.95,"text":"他後續再進到這個工廠的時候"},{"start":8886.95,"end":8887.95,"text":"他可以去做抽樣"},{"start":8887.95,"end":8890.95,"text":"他去抽樣一樣去送檢驗之後"},{"start":8890.95,"end":8892.95,"text":"再去跟業者本身自主檢驗的結果"},{"start":8892.95,"end":8893.95,"text":"去做比對"},{"start":8893.95,"end":8895.95,"text":"那如果有發現異常的話"},{"start":8895.95,"end":8898.95,"text":"驗證機構也要立即通報給主管機關"},{"start":8898.95,"end":8900.95,"text":"這是目前的規定是不是"},{"start":8900.95,"end":8902.95,"text":"這之後我們再修正這一塊的部分"},{"start":8902.95,"end":8905.95,"text":"那目前這個第三方驗證的部分"},{"start":8905.95,"end":8908.95,"text":"是說如果有出問題的話"},{"start":8908.95,"end":8910.95,"text":"那我們也希望能夠了解"},{"start":8910.95,"end":8912.95,"text":"然後未來怎麼改善"},{"start":8912.95,"end":8913.95,"text":"很重要好不好"},{"start":8913.95,"end":8914.95,"text":"是"},{"start":8914.95,"end":8915.95,"text":"就是說這個第三方驗證"},{"start":8915.95,"end":8918.95,"text":"理論上中聯應該有得到這個三年的效期"},{"start":8918.95,"end":8920.95,"text":"那中間依照你們講的"},{"start":8920.95,"end":8923.95,"text":"第三方驗證也應該要主動抽查嘛"},{"start":8925.2,"end":8926.2,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":8926.2,"end":8928.2,"text":"目前第三方驗證進場的時候"},{"start":8928.2,"end":8931.2,"text":"我就是比對他的HACCP的計畫"},{"start":8931.2,"end":8932.2,"text":"他有沒有照計畫去執行"},{"start":8932.2,"end":8934.2,"text":"那如果當然有一些他的記錄不完整"},{"start":8934.2,"end":8935.2,"text":"或什麼"},{"start":8935.2,"end":8936.2,"text":"我們就會開缺失"},{"start":8936.2,"end":8938.2,"text":"那基本上就會要求他改善"},{"start":8938.2,"end":8940.2,"text":"那同時也會去確認一下說"},{"start":8940.2,"end":8943.2,"text":"他有沒有依照規範的自主檢驗的頻率"},{"start":8943.2,"end":8944.2,"text":"去送驗"},{"start":8944.2,"end":8945.2,"text":"那這個從這次事件發現"},{"start":8945.2,"end":8947.2,"text":"那這可能會有不足的部分"},{"start":8947.2,"end":8948.2,"text":"所以我們在未來修法的時候"},{"start":8948.2,"end":8949.2,"text":"我們已經有強化了"},{"start":8949.2,"end":8951.2,"text":"那他也要去做一個抽樣"},{"start":8951.2,"end":8953.2,"text":"那我知道你們這一次也有一個"},{"start":8953.2,"end":8956.2,"text":"就是所謂的外部調查"},{"start":8956.2,"end":8957.2,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8957.2,"end":8958.2,"text":"然後已經進行"},{"start":8958.2,"end":8959.2,"text":"然後那個報告"},{"start":8959.2,"end":8960.2,"text":"我剛剛看你們這寫"},{"start":8960.2,"end":8961.2,"text":"27號會出來嘛"},{"start":8961.2,"end":8964.2,"text":"那到時候都會主動給我們委員一份"},{"start":8964.2,"end":8965.2,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8966.01,"end":8967.01,"text":"我們的目前就是說"},{"start":8967.01,"end":8969.01,"text":"我們是委託第三方調查"},{"start":8969.01,"end":8971.01,"text":"那調查小組這邊的專案的"},{"start":8971.01,"end":8972.01,"text":"就是說這些專業委員"},{"start":8972.01,"end":8974.01,"text":"到時候會有一份報告出來"},{"start":8974.01,"end":8976.01,"text":"好 那報告書我們那個"},{"start":8976.01,"end":8977.01,"text":"可以給本席一份嗎"},{"start":8977.01,"end":8978.01,"text":"我們報告書出來之後"},{"start":8978.01,"end":8979.01,"text":"我們可以給委員"},{"start":8979.01,"end":8980.01,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":8980.01,"end":8983.01,"text":"那因為時間的緣故就是不夠"},{"start":8983.01,"end":8985.01,"text":"我想這個修法"},{"start":8985.01,"end":8987.01,"text":"因為我剛剛才看到你們這個"},{"start":8987.01,"end":8988.01,"text":"10點的細節內容"},{"start":8988.01,"end":8990.01,"text":"我覺得有幾個重點"},{"start":8990.01,"end":8991.01,"text":"第一個就是"},{"start":8991.01,"end":8993.01,"text":"中央負責建構標準"},{"start":8993.01,"end":8995.01,"text":"目前是地方主要負責執行"},{"start":8995.01,"end":8998.01,"text":"那中央是在必要的時候查驗"},{"start":8998.01,"end":9000.01,"text":"那如何透過修法"},{"start":9000.01,"end":9003.01,"text":"敦促確保各級主管機關落實執行"},{"start":9003.01,"end":9006.01,"text":"我看到你們已經把得改成因"},{"start":9006.01,"end":9008.01,"text":"那這個會不會有地方政府因"},{"start":9008.01,"end":9011.01,"text":"然後還是未去執行查驗呢"},{"start":9011.01,"end":9012.01,"text":"我們都已經寫因了"},{"start":9012.01,"end":9014.01,"text":"所以依法他就要去查驗"},{"start":9014.01,"end":9016.01,"text":"他如果沒有去就是違法了"},{"start":9016.01,"end":9017.01,"text":"就違反食安法"},{"start":9017.01,"end":9019.01,"text":"就是監察院就可以彈劾或等等"},{"start":9019.01,"end":9020.01,"text":"好 那這是一個"},{"start":9020.01,"end":9023.01,"text":"另外一個其實也很多人提到"},{"start":9023.01,"end":9026.01,"text":"中下游無辜廠商的補償"},{"start":9026.01,"end":9029.01,"text":"那目前你們有計畫要處理嗎"},{"start":9029.01,"end":9030.01,"text":"如果有的話怎麼處理"},{"start":9030.01,"end":9031.01,"text":"我們目前是這樣"},{"start":9031.01,"end":9033.01,"text":"就是說中下游的廠商我們也非常"},{"start":9033.01,"end":9034.01,"text":"我們知道這一次"},{"start":9034.01,"end":9035.01,"text":"中下游廠商波及很大"},{"start":9035.01,"end":9037.01,"text":"那尤其很多中下游廠商"},{"start":9037.01,"end":9038.01,"text":"他預防性下架之後"},{"start":9038.01,"end":9040.01,"text":"當然像現在我們檢驗合格"},{"start":9040.01,"end":9041.01,"text":"他理論上可以上架"},{"start":9041.01,"end":9043.01,"text":"可是有些預防性下架的"},{"start":9043.01,"end":9045.01,"text":"廠商的食品可能是有效期的"},{"start":9045.01,"end":9046.01,"text":"他根本預防性下架之後"},{"start":9046.01,"end":9048.01,"text":"就不可能再上架了"},{"start":9048.01,"end":9051.01,"text":"這個部分是有一定程度的損害"},{"start":9051.01,"end":9053.01,"text":"那至於後續這些損害的補償"},{"start":9053.01,"end":9054.01,"text":"我們會在"},{"start":9054.01,"end":9056.01,"text":"就是包含現在消保處這邊"},{"start":9056.01,"end":9058.01,"text":"還有我們正在跟經濟部討論"},{"start":9058.01,"end":9060.01,"text":"昨天經濟部也有跟廠商開會"},{"start":9060.01,"end":9062.01,"text":"好 那這部分我覺得無辜的廠商"},{"start":9062.01,"end":9064.01,"text":"是不是能動用食安基金"},{"start":9064.01,"end":9065.01,"text":"或者是賠款"},{"start":9065.01,"end":9067.01,"text":"因為他有罰款嘛"},{"start":9067.01,"end":9069.01,"text":"這個中年有罰款等等"},{"start":9069.01,"end":9073.01,"text":"或者是甚至是協助就是說訴訟"},{"start":9073.01,"end":9076.01,"text":"那請衛福部都能夠多管齊下去考慮好嗎"},{"start":9076.01,"end":9079.01,"text":"昨天我們跟經濟部一起"},{"start":9079.01,"end":9080.01,"text":"跟廠商開的會裡面"},{"start":9080.01,"end":9083.01,"text":"未來會由就是相關的廠商這邊的團體"},{"start":9083.01,"end":9084.01,"text":"公會這邊來提出"},{"start":9084.01,"end":9086.01,"text":"那我們再看看依照現行法規"},{"start":9086.01,"end":9088.01,"text":"可以做到什麼樣的協助"},{"start":9088.01,"end":9091.01,"text":"好 那最後還是回到這個修法"},{"start":9091.01,"end":9093.01,"text":"那我希望這個製程管理"},{"start":9093.01,"end":9094.01,"text":"就像我剛講的"},{"start":9094.01,"end":9097.01,"text":"日本的這個就是相關的製程管理"},{"start":9097.01,"end":9100.01,"text":"是不是還有台灣可以精進的部分"},{"start":9100.01,"end":9102.01,"text":"那另外就是各級主管機關的"},{"start":9102.01,"end":9105.01,"text":"食安監督權責如何明確"},{"start":9105.01,"end":9107.01,"text":"然後合作"},{"start":9107.01,"end":9108.01,"text":"最後一個無辜中下"},{"start":9108.01,"end":9110.01,"text":"無辜中下有廠商的賠償"},{"start":9110.01,"end":9114.01,"text":"或者是補償都能夠明確入法"},{"start":9114.01,"end":9117.01,"text":"這三點就是衛福部目前的法規都有做到嗎"},{"start":9117.01,"end":9119.01,"text":"我們接下來就是會把這幾個部分"},{"start":9119.01,"end":9121.01,"text":"都在修法草案裡面事實上有納入"},{"start":9121.01,"end":9125.01,"text":"也比較明確強化相關的監督的權責"},{"start":9125.01,"end":9127.01,"text":"中央跟地方的分界"},{"start":9127.01,"end":9129.01,"text":"以及就是說前端製程的管理"},{"start":9129.01,"end":9132.01,"text":"有一些這種特定大型的影響證據的廠商"},{"start":9132.01,"end":9134.01,"text":"我們會在後續的執法裡面"},{"start":9134.01,"end":9136.01,"text":"提到要怎麼樣去做加強"},{"start":9136.01,"end":9137.01,"text":"那其實再跟委員補充"},{"start":9137.01,"end":9139.01,"text":"就是其實現在台灣在食安的部分"},{"start":9139.01,"end":9141.01,"text":"已經這幾年持續過去這十幾年"},{"start":9141.01,"end":9142.01,"text":"我們持續在進步"},{"start":9142.01,"end":9144.01,"text":"所以HACCP事實上就是對於這些業者"},{"start":9144.01,"end":9146.01,"text":"本來就有的要求跟日本一樣"},{"start":9146.01,"end":9148.01,"text":"但是我想我們現在也在看說"},{"start":9148.01,"end":9151.01,"text":"日本的廠商對於他們自己的自主的責任"},{"start":9151.01,"end":9153.01,"text":"跟台灣的廠商對於自主應有的責任"},{"start":9153.01,"end":9155.01,"text":"我想這有文化上很大的不同"},{"start":9155.01,"end":9157.01,"text":"這個部分我們後續可能要在相關的監管裡面"},{"start":9157.01,"end":9159.01,"text":"再做比較大的強度的處理"},{"start":9159.01,"end":9162.01,"text":"那當然就本席講到日本的制度"},{"start":9162.01,"end":9164.01,"text":"本席還有看到一個就是"},{"start":9164.01,"end":9167.01,"text":"日本對這個食安檢察員"},{"start":9167.01,"end":9169.01,"text":"他的規範跟一條邊的程度"},{"start":9169.01,"end":9171.01,"text":"也跟台灣有一些不同"},{"start":9171.01,"end":9173.01,"text":"那也許就是說衛福部這邊如果了解的話"},{"start":9173.01,"end":9175.01,"text":"不管是這次修法"},{"start":9175.01,"end":9177.01,"text":"也希望未來能夠精進好嗎"},{"start":9177.01,"end":9179.01,"text":"因為台灣現在也是個經濟大國"},{"start":9179.01,"end":9182.01,"text":"我們食安的標準是跟歐盟跟日本"},{"start":9182.01,"end":9184.01,"text":"希望能夠越一致越好"},{"start":9184.01,"end":9187.01,"text":"事實上我們的標準都設定的其實都滿高的"},{"start":9187.01,"end":9188.01,"text":"那當然中間很多"},{"start":9188.01,"end":9190.01,"text":"因為台灣很多中小型企業"},{"start":9190.01,"end":9192.01,"text":"那我們對於大企業我們客責要多一點"},{"start":9192.01,"end":9195.01,"text":"那中小型業這邊我們一樣在品質上面來做一些協助"},{"start":9195.01,"end":9198.01,"text":"好 畢竟這個食安不分藍綠"},{"start":9198.01,"end":9199.01,"text":"是沒有妥協的空間"},{"start":9199.01,"end":9200.01,"text":"好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":9200.01,"end":9201.01,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":9201.63,"end":9202.63,"text":"謝謝發言委員"},{"start":9202.63,"end":9205.63,"text":"我先做今天的這個議程"},{"start":9205.63,"end":9207.63,"text":"會議議程的宣告"},{"start":9207.63,"end":9208.63,"text":"待會可能"},{"start":9208.63,"end":9210.63,"text":"待會在徐宇鎮委員巡達之後"},{"start":9210.63,"end":9212.63,"text":"我們中間先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9212.63,"end":9213.63,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":9213.63,"end":9214.63,"text":"然後謝謝"},{"start":9214.63,"end":9216.63,"text":"這個已經到場幾位委員的體諒"},{"start":9216.63,"end":9219.63,"text":"好 那我們接著就有請徐宇鎮委員發言"},{"start":9226.72,"end":9229.72,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請法務部政部長"},{"start":9230.54,"end":9231.54,"text":"有請政部長"},{"start":9236.9,"end":9237.9,"text":"委員好"},{"start":9237.9,"end":9238.9,"text":"部長好"},{"start":9238.9,"end":9243.9,"text":"我們今天是針對中聯致癌遊事件的一個偵查調查"},{"start":9243.9,"end":9245.9,"text":"偵辦調查做一個報告"},{"start":9245.9,"end":9246.9,"text":"那我想請教"},{"start":9246.9,"end":9249.9,"text":"因為在法務部的報告裡一直強調會在第一"},{"start":9249.9,"end":9253.9,"text":"你們都在第一時間嚴查速辦溯源斷根"},{"start":9253.9,"end":9257.9,"text":"那以這件事情6月30中聯通報之後"},{"start":9257.9,"end":9261.9,"text":"請問一下法務部是什麼時候這個開始調查"},{"start":9261.9,"end":9263.9,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9263.9,"end":9266.9,"text":"它那個在7月2日"},{"start":9267.49,"end":9271.49,"text":"7月2日就有組成一個專案小組了"},{"start":9271.49,"end":9274.49,"text":"那有做一些的規劃"},{"start":9274.49,"end":9277.49,"text":"那7月3日就分案"},{"start":9277.49,"end":9281.49,"text":"7月6日就已經到中聯去調取相關資料"},{"start":9281.49,"end":9284.49,"text":"就跟相關的去調取相關資料"},{"start":9284.49,"end":9289.49,"text":"那準備後在7月9號就第一波的一個搜索"},{"start":9289.49,"end":9293.49,"text":"中聯是7月6號才跟業者調取資料嗎"},{"start":9293.49,"end":9294.49,"text":"我想這個要準備"},{"start":9294.49,"end":9296.49,"text":"一定要去做一個準備"},{"start":9296.49,"end":9301.49,"text":"因為這個是很專業的一個食安的一個"},{"start":9301.49,"end":9304.49,"text":"這個檢驗檢測都是很專業的"},{"start":9304.49,"end":9307.49,"text":"所以這部分要做一個準備"},{"start":9307.49,"end":9309.49,"text":"因為從6月30發生"},{"start":9309.49,"end":9311.49,"text":"到你們真正去搜取資料"},{"start":9311.49,"end":9312.49,"text":"這個速度是算很快的"},{"start":9312.49,"end":9314.49,"text":"7月9號才搜索"},{"start":9314.49,"end":9317.49,"text":"搜索那個是還要再準備相關的資料"},{"start":9317.49,"end":9319.49,"text":"給向法院申請搜索"},{"start":9319.49,"end":9320.49,"text":"是我知道"},{"start":9320.49,"end":9321.49,"text":"但是這中間的話"},{"start":9321.49,"end":9323.49,"text":"就是你調取資料跟搜索"},{"start":9323.49,"end":9325.49,"text":"其實還有一點時間差"},{"start":9325.49,"end":9327.49,"text":"但是這幾天的時間"},{"start":9327.49,"end":9330.49,"text":"業者是不是有可能會針對電腦"},{"start":9330.49,"end":9334.49,"text":"通訊記錄檢驗資料跟競銷貨的系統"},{"start":9334.49,"end":9337.49,"text":"做一些可能他們有一些"},{"start":9337.49,"end":9338.49,"text":"因為他們自然隱匿"},{"start":9338.49,"end":9339.49,"text":"所以他們其實搞不好"},{"start":9339.49,"end":9341.49,"text":"做一些更改或刪除了"},{"start":9341.49,"end":9342.49,"text":"那針對這個部分的話"},{"start":9342.49,"end":9344.49,"text":"是不是你們在搜索的過程中"},{"start":9344.49,"end":9346.49,"text":"是不是資料有保全"},{"start":9346.49,"end":9350.49,"text":"這部分因為是個案的保全到多少的證據"},{"start":9350.49,"end":9351.49,"text":"因為7月9號搜索"},{"start":9351.49,"end":9353.49,"text":"那昨天又搜索第二"},{"start":9354.49,"end":9355.49,"text":"對所以他們的"},{"start":9355.49,"end":9357.49,"text":"你們現在有個廠長生壓嗎"},{"start":9357.49,"end":9359.49,"text":"我想檢察官還有辦案團隊"},{"start":9359.49,"end":9361.49,"text":"認為應該做一個保全"},{"start":9361.49,"end":9363.49,"text":"來做一個清查"},{"start":9363.49,"end":9365.49,"text":"我想檢察官都會再做一個"},{"start":9365.49,"end":9367.49,"text":"這部分的一個保全"},{"start":9367.49,"end":9369.49,"text":"因為昨天針對中聯的廠長"},{"start":9369.49,"end":9371.49,"text":"你們有申請要升壓嗎"},{"start":9371.49,"end":9372.49,"text":"要擠壓"},{"start":9372.49,"end":9374.49,"text":"那當然也就是說"},{"start":9374.49,"end":9378.49,"text":"這件中聯的這個毒油的事件"},{"start":9378.49,"end":9379.49,"text":"其實到現在為止"},{"start":9379.49,"end":9380.49,"text":"其實整個的"},{"start":9380.49,"end":9382.49,"text":"不管他的製程缺失或汙染源"},{"start":9382.49,"end":9383.49,"text":"或是事故的成因"},{"start":9383.49,"end":9385.49,"text":"現在有調查清楚了嗎"},{"start":9385.49,"end":9387.49,"text":"我想這部分還要再"},{"start":9389.77,"end":9390.77,"text":"我們沒辦法去做一個"},{"start":9390.77,"end":9392.77,"text":"介入干涉指導"},{"start":9392.77,"end":9393.77,"text":"但目前是還沒有嗎"},{"start":9393.77,"end":9394.77,"text":"因為還沒起訴"},{"start":9394.77,"end":9395.77,"text":"我不清楚"},{"start":9395.77,"end":9397.77,"text":"因為偵查的這部分"},{"start":9397.77,"end":9398.77,"text":"我就不顧問了"},{"start":9398.77,"end":9399.77,"text":"看起來是沒有嗎"},{"start":9399.77,"end":9400.77,"text":"我想如果調查清楚就會起訴"},{"start":9400.77,"end":9402.77,"text":"我想這個因為跟委員報告"},{"start":9402.77,"end":9404.77,"text":"因為我想這部分"},{"start":9404.77,"end":9406.77,"text":"那個案件也要向上溯源"},{"start":9406.77,"end":9408.77,"text":"那也要做一個證據保全"},{"start":9408.77,"end":9409.77,"text":"所以這部分"},{"start":9409.77,"end":9411.77,"text":"我想這部分檢察官會"},{"start":9411.77,"end":9413.77,"text":"委員關心的問題都會全力來做"},{"start":9413.77,"end":9414.77,"text":"對 葛部長"},{"start":9414.77,"end":9416.77,"text":"現在這個衛福部已經先讓"},{"start":9416.77,"end":9419.77,"text":"19批產品重新上架了"},{"start":9419.77,"end":9420.77,"text":"那針對這個"},{"start":9420.77,"end":9423.77,"text":"目前這個真相還沒有查明之前"},{"start":9423.77,"end":9425.77,"text":"就做這樣的一個動作"},{"start":9425.77,"end":9427.77,"text":"事實上會讓消費者誤以為"},{"start":9427.77,"end":9428.77,"text":"說產品都沒有問題"},{"start":9428.77,"end":9431.77,"text":"那如果說未來啦"},{"start":9431.77,"end":9433.77,"text":"未來重新上架之後"},{"start":9433.77,"end":9434.77,"text":"又在相關的產品"},{"start":9434.77,"end":9436.77,"text":"又驗出扁粉筆"},{"start":9436.77,"end":9438.77,"text":"還有或是其他有害物質超標"},{"start":9438.77,"end":9439.77,"text":"那請問這個部分"},{"start":9439.77,"end":9442.77,"text":"防暴會做怎麼樣子的一個處理"},{"start":9442.77,"end":9443.77,"text":"會不會針對這個"},{"start":9443.77,"end":9445.77,"text":"我們的一些決策官員"},{"start":9445.77,"end":9447.77,"text":"他是不是有廢持職務的"},{"start":9447.77,"end":9449.77,"text":"這個登載不實圖例"},{"start":9449.77,"end":9451.77,"text":"或其他的相關行責"},{"start":9451.77,"end":9453.77,"text":"防護會會來做這樣子的一個處理嗎"},{"start":9453.77,"end":9456.77,"text":"這部分我們檢察就是"},{"start":9456.77,"end":9459.77,"text":"有犯罪的行為才能夠依法的偵辦"},{"start":9459.77,"end":9462.77,"text":"那如果說我們發現犯罪嫌疑"},{"start":9462.77,"end":9464.77,"text":"或者是有告訴告發"},{"start":9464.77,"end":9465.77,"text":"就有犯罪嫌疑"},{"start":9465.77,"end":9466.77,"text":"那我們就會立案偵辦"},{"start":9466.77,"end":9467.77,"text":"那個訴訟法"},{"start":9467.77,"end":9469.77,"text":"那個刑訴訴訟法第288條"},{"start":9469.77,"end":9470.77,"text":"對 因為看起來就是說"},{"start":9470.77,"end":9472.77,"text":"在目前的真相都還沒有明"},{"start":9472.77,"end":9473.77,"text":"這個明讓之前"},{"start":9473.77,"end":9474.77,"text":"也沒有查明之前"},{"start":9474.77,"end":9477.77,"text":"那個檢察會如果說有犯罪嫌疑"},{"start":9477.77,"end":9478.77,"text":"對 那我想請教部長說說"},{"start":9478.77,"end":9481.77,"text":"如果因為我們的行政官員"},{"start":9481.77,"end":9483.77,"text":"做這樣的錯誤的一個"},{"start":9483.77,"end":9484.77,"text":"上架的一個"},{"start":9484.77,"end":9486.77,"text":"最後如果說假設壞了"},{"start":9486.77,"end":9487.77,"text":"我們上架也有驗出"},{"start":9487.77,"end":9489.77,"text":"有問有讀的這個有品的話"},{"start":9489.77,"end":9491.77,"text":"那這樣子的話"},{"start":9491.77,"end":9492.77,"text":"我們的調查的官員"},{"start":9492.77,"end":9495.77,"text":"是不是有觸犯刑法第130條的"},{"start":9495.77,"end":9496.77,"text":"廢持職務罪"},{"start":9496.77,"end":9498.77,"text":"廢持職務罪這部分"},{"start":9498.77,"end":9500.77,"text":"要看那個構成要件"},{"start":9500.77,"end":9502.77,"text":"看犯罪的證據"},{"start":9502.77,"end":9505.77,"text":"是不是有到達廢止職務量成災害罪"},{"start":9505.77,"end":9506.77,"text":"因為那個就是一個"},{"start":9506.77,"end":9508.77,"text":"故意犯的一個犯罪"},{"start":9508.77,"end":9509.77,"text":"那不是過失"},{"start":9511.03,"end":9512.03,"text":"好"},{"start":9511.89,"end":9514.89,"text":"他那個是130條的那一部分"},{"start":9514.89,"end":9516.89,"text":"那這部分如果認定"},{"start":9516.89,"end":9517.89,"text":"有這樣的一個犯罪事"},{"start":9517.89,"end":9520.89,"text":"我想檢察官員依據告訴告發"},{"start":9520.89,"end":9522.89,"text":"或者是職權來做一個告發"},{"start":9522.89,"end":9523.89,"text":"那另外再請教一下"},{"start":9523.89,"end":9524.89,"text":"政務長就是說"},{"start":9524.89,"end":9526.89,"text":"目前法院扣押"},{"start":9526.89,"end":9528.89,"text":"4家涉案名下的不動產"},{"start":9528.89,"end":9531.89,"text":"剛剛你有提到說大概是兩億多"},{"start":9531.89,"end":9533.89,"text":"兩億多的一個範圍內"},{"start":9533.89,"end":9537.89,"text":"因為他是那個跟法院有申請扣押"},{"start":9537.89,"end":9538.89,"text":"這是屬於一個"},{"start":9538.89,"end":9540.89,"text":"一個財產的一個保全"},{"start":9540.89,"end":9543.89,"text":"那這部分我們是在一個"},{"start":9543.89,"end":9544.89,"text":"跟法院申請扣押"},{"start":9544.89,"end":9546.89,"text":"他扣押的財產的價值是"},{"start":9546.89,"end":9549.89,"text":"兩億五千三百多萬元的不動產"},{"start":9549.89,"end":9552.89,"text":"那法院準扣押了一億兩千六百萬元"},{"start":9552.89,"end":9556.89,"text":"就這個範圍內扣了一億兩千六百萬元"},{"start":9556.89,"end":9558.89,"text":"那請問一下你們扣押這些金額"},{"start":9558.89,"end":9560.89,"text":"是不是足以保全犯罪所得"},{"start":9560.89,"end":9563.89,"text":"行政罰還跟消費者賠償"},{"start":9563.89,"end":9565.89,"text":"因為這是第一步的一個"},{"start":9565.89,"end":9568.89,"text":"一個財產申請的一個扣押"},{"start":9568.89,"end":9570.89,"text":"那這些的是不是的不法所得"},{"start":9570.89,"end":9571.89,"text":"這個犯罪報索"},{"start":9571.89,"end":9573.89,"text":"因為目前我們還沒有"},{"start":9573.89,"end":9576.89,"text":"還沒有做還是希望就是說"},{"start":9576.89,"end":9578.89,"text":"這是一個推估"},{"start":9578.89,"end":9579.89,"text":"一個推估"},{"start":9579.89,"end":9580.89,"text":"我跟部長報告"},{"start":9580.89,"end":9581.89,"text":"因為現在我們案件還在偵查中"},{"start":9581.89,"end":9584.89,"text":"所以我們依據這些案件進程的時程"},{"start":9584.89,"end":9587.89,"text":"一些的我們會再做一些的"},{"start":9587.89,"end":9588.89,"text":"另外一個作為"},{"start":9588.89,"end":9589.89,"text":"所以我跟部長報告"},{"start":9589.89,"end":9590.89,"text":"你可以看一下"},{"start":9590.89,"end":9592.89,"text":"就現在這個因為消基會"},{"start":9592.89,"end":9596.89,"text":"跟消保協會已經申請團體訴訟"},{"start":9596.89,"end":9597.89,"text":"針對這個案件"},{"start":9597.89,"end":9600.89,"text":"所以你看團體訴訟啟動求償金"},{"start":9600.89,"end":9603.89,"text":"估破可能高達六十億"},{"start":9603.89,"end":9605.89,"text":"所以我們現在扣押了"},{"start":9605.89,"end":9607.89,"text":"他名下可能一億多的"},{"start":9607.89,"end":9608.89,"text":"這樣子不動產"},{"start":9608.89,"end":9609.89,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":9609.89,"end":9611.89,"text":"就算當後來我們證明"},{"start":9611.89,"end":9613.89,"text":"這個消費者勝訴"},{"start":9613.89,"end":9615.89,"text":"然後但是事實上的業者"},{"start":9615.89,"end":9617.89,"text":"你現在扣押的他早就脫產了"},{"start":9617.89,"end":9618.89,"text":"他根本就不足以賠償"},{"start":9618.89,"end":9619.89,"text":"這樣子的一個"},{"start":9619.89,"end":9621.89,"text":"這麼高達六十"},{"start":9621.89,"end":9622.89,"text":"可能超過六十億的"},{"start":9622.89,"end":9623.89,"text":"這樣子的一個金額"},{"start":9623.89,"end":9624.89,"text":"那請問這個部分的話"},{"start":9624.89,"end":9625.89,"text":"那請問這個部分的話"},{"start":9625.89,"end":9627.89,"text":"保不應該怎麼樣來去處理"},{"start":9627.89,"end":9628.89,"text":"多管齊下當然"},{"start":9628.89,"end":9630.89,"text":"我們刑事就以刑事案件"},{"start":9630.89,"end":9632.89,"text":"做一個財產的一個保全"},{"start":9632.89,"end":9634.89,"text":"但不能那是多管齊下"},{"start":9634.89,"end":9636.89,"text":"當然在民事"},{"start":9636.89,"end":9638.89,"text":"這可以用民事保全程序"},{"start":9638.89,"end":9639.89,"text":"消保處這部分"},{"start":9639.89,"end":9643.89,"text":"也可以依據那個消保法的"},{"start":9643.89,"end":9645.89,"text":"相關的一個規定"},{"start":9645.89,"end":9647.89,"text":"然後依照民事訴訟法"},{"start":9647.89,"end":9649.89,"text":"這部分我們是不是請消保處"},{"start":9649.89,"end":9650.89,"text":"來做一個答覆"},{"start":9650.89,"end":9652.89,"text":"因為有關於這部分"},{"start":9652.89,"end":9654.89,"text":"希望就是說法務部"},{"start":9654.89,"end":9656.89,"text":"你們有這樣子可以去扣押"},{"start":9656.89,"end":9658.89,"text":"這個零下的不動產"},{"start":9658.89,"end":9659.89,"text":"但是現在看起來"},{"start":9659.89,"end":9661.89,"text":"扣押的金額顯然是"},{"start":9661.89,"end":9663.89,"text":"這部分我們先扣了第一批"},{"start":9663.89,"end":9666.89,"text":"當然我們會按照這些的案件的"},{"start":9666.89,"end":9668.89,"text":"可是有可能說你們在扣的時候"},{"start":9668.89,"end":9669.89,"text":"他可能都已經脫產了"},{"start":9669.89,"end":9670.89,"text":"我們會關注這個問題"},{"start":9670.89,"end":9672.89,"text":"的確我們預防這個問題"},{"start":9672.89,"end":9673.89,"text":"才會有財產保全"},{"start":9673.89,"end":9674.89,"text":"所以可能針對這個部分"},{"start":9674.89,"end":9675.89,"text":"可能也要就是"},{"start":9675.89,"end":9676.89,"text":"檢方應該要先清查"},{"start":9676.89,"end":9677.89,"text":"這個涉案公司"},{"start":9677.89,"end":9680.89,"text":"跟高層的金融帳戶存款"},{"start":9680.89,"end":9682.89,"text":"有價證券 應收賬款"},{"start":9682.89,"end":9684.89,"text":"跟關係企業跟海外的資產"},{"start":9684.89,"end":9686.89,"text":"避免說他們在這段時間"},{"start":9686.89,"end":9688.89,"text":"因為算是在司法的"},{"start":9688.89,"end":9689.89,"text":"這個整個過程"},{"start":9689.89,"end":9691.89,"text":"可能需要很長一段時間"},{"start":9691.89,"end":9692.89,"text":"等到真正勝訴的時候"},{"start":9692.89,"end":9694.89,"text":"消費者要求償也無門"},{"start":9694.89,"end":9695.89,"text":"所以這個部分可能要請"},{"start":9695.89,"end":9696.89,"text":"這個這個多管制下"},{"start":9696.89,"end":9698.89,"text":"有刑事民事還有刑事的考量"},{"start":9698.89,"end":9700.89,"text":"那剛剛您講說要請這個"},{"start":9704.17,"end":9705.17,"text":"是"},{"start":9705.17,"end":9706.17,"text":"你好"},{"start":9706.17,"end":9707.17,"text":"我想這個部分呢"},{"start":9707.17,"end":9709.17,"text":"就是如同剛剛部長講的"},{"start":9709.17,"end":9710.17,"text":"就是我們會多管齊下"},{"start":9710.17,"end":9712.17,"text":"那這個部分因為有兩個"},{"start":9712.17,"end":9714.17,"text":"有兩個消保團體來進行"},{"start":9714.17,"end":9715.17,"text":"我們也會跟他們做一些"},{"start":9715.17,"end":9716.17,"text":"這個部分的討論"},{"start":9717.67,"end":9719.67,"text":"那討論之後呢"},{"start":9719.67,"end":9720.67,"text":"當然了因為"},{"start":9720.67,"end":9722.67,"text":"因為看起來就算多管齊下"},{"start":9722.67,"end":9724.67,"text":"如果法務部都只扣押了這個"},{"start":9724.67,"end":9725.67,"text":"一樣我們就是說"},{"start":9725.67,"end":9726.67,"text":"有假扣押有假扣押的"},{"start":9726.67,"end":9728.67,"text":"民事訴訟法上面的要件"},{"start":9728.67,"end":9730.67,"text":"所以因為現在"},{"start":9730.67,"end":9731.67,"text":"消保團體才開放給這個"},{"start":9731.67,"end":9732.67,"text":"大家來登記"},{"start":9732.67,"end":9734.67,"text":"就是民眾消保採訪者來登記"},{"start":9734.67,"end":9736.67,"text":"所以他必須要有一些評估的東西來示明"},{"start":9736.67,"end":9737.67,"text":"當然就說我們知道說"},{"start":9737.67,"end":9738.67,"text":"有一定的程序"},{"start":9738.67,"end":9739.67,"text":"可是這樣聽起來"},{"start":9739.67,"end":9741.67,"text":"民眾是聽不下去的"},{"start":9741.67,"end":9742.67,"text":"因為如果這樣子的話"},{"start":9742.67,"end":9743.67,"text":"有可能到最後"},{"start":9743.67,"end":9745.67,"text":"即使是勝訴了"},{"start":9745.67,"end":9746.67,"text":"當然看起來勝訴的"},{"start":9746.67,"end":9747.67,"text":"這個機率是非常高"},{"start":9747.67,"end":9749.67,"text":"也求償無門"},{"start":9749.67,"end":9751.67,"text":"也沒有辦法得到這樣的保障"},{"start":9751.67,"end":9752.67,"text":"那所以針對這個部分"},{"start":9752.67,"end":9754.67,"text":"也要請這個法務部這邊"},{"start":9754.67,"end":9755.67,"text":"是不是能夠"},{"start":9755.67,"end":9757.67,"text":"也積極來去協助我們針對"},{"start":9757.67,"end":9760.67,"text":"這個我們求償的這些"},{"start":9760.67,"end":9764.67,"text":"打這個我們的這個團體訴訟的這些協會"},{"start":9764.67,"end":9766.67,"text":"來協助他們"},{"start":9766.67,"end":9769.67,"text":"做一些相關應有的可以保全證據"},{"start":9769.67,"end":9772.67,"text":"或者是可以這個求償的一個相關動作"},{"start":9775.28,"end":9776.28,"text":"可以嗎法務"},{"start":9776.28,"end":9778.28,"text":"這個的確因為多管齊下"},{"start":9778.28,"end":9780.28,"text":"當然他還有那個地方政府消保官"},{"start":9780.28,"end":9784.28,"text":"也可以成立一個損害賠償的一個信託裝護"},{"start":9784.28,"end":9786.28,"text":"那另外那個我們行政機關這部分"},{"start":9786.28,"end":9788.28,"text":"也可以做行政的一個扣留"},{"start":9788.28,"end":9790.28,"text":"我想多管齊下來保障消費"},{"start":9790.28,"end":9792.28,"text":"那個消費者的一個權利"},{"start":9792.28,"end":9795.28,"text":"因為這是全國主命的實案事件"},{"start":9795.28,"end":9798.28,"text":"所以真的我覺得廣大的消費者的權益"},{"start":9798.28,"end":9799.28,"text":"才是我們最該要保障"},{"start":9799.28,"end":9801.28,"text":"跟最後應該還給他們一個"},{"start":9801.28,"end":9802.28,"text":"這個應有的一個賠償"},{"start":9802.28,"end":9804.28,"text":"那這部分要請這個法務部"},{"start":9804.28,"end":9806.28,"text":"消保部請消保會一起共同來努力"},{"start":9806.28,"end":9808.28,"text":"那另外謝謝部長請回"},{"start":9808.28,"end":9810.28,"text":"現在請全序部部長"},{"start":9810.28,"end":9812.28,"text":"市部長謝謝"},{"start":9813.64,"end":9814.64,"text":"好請市部長"},{"start":9820.02,"end":9821.02,"text":"部長好"},{"start":9821.02,"end":9822.02,"text":"部長好"},{"start":9822.02,"end":9826.02,"text":"今天想請教你的是有關這個旋轉門條款"},{"start":9826.02,"end":9828.02,"text":"因為我們可以知道就是"},{"start":9828.02,"end":9832.02,"text":"像最近發生的這個國泰投信的重大內控事件"},{"start":9832.02,"end":9834.02,"text":"有破及超過5萬名投資人"},{"start":9834.02,"end":9838.02,"text":"也再次引發外界對金融監理跟公司治理的質疑"},{"start":9838.02,"end":9841.02,"text":"那與此同時前金管會的主委王立林"},{"start":9841.02,"end":9846.02,"text":"跟前副主委吳當傑擔任國泰體系的獨董"},{"start":9846.02,"end":9849.02,"text":"人家覺得是金管會無法確實"},{"start":9849.02,"end":9852.02,"text":"這個管理精簡的一個原因之一"},{"start":9852.02,"end":9855.02,"text":"而且前經濟部長王美花也卸任不到一個月"},{"start":9855.02,"end":9859.02,"text":"就進入台新金控跟台新銀行董事會"},{"start":9859.02,"end":9862.02,"text":"那這些轉任目前並沒有違法"},{"start":9862.02,"end":9865.02,"text":"但是卻凸顯了現行的旋轉門條款"},{"start":9865.02,"end":9868.02,"text":"已經以職務直接相關"},{"start":9868.02,"end":9871.02,"text":"跟三年期限違戒來處理"},{"start":9871.02,"end":9874.02,"text":"那也難以處理這高階官員離職後"},{"start":9874.02,"end":9878.02,"text":"所帶來的政策資訊行政人脈跟實質的影響率"},{"start":9878.02,"end":9881.02,"text":"那在你們的報告裡面也提到說"},{"start":9881.02,"end":9885.02,"text":"從85年的認定標準到現在已經超過30年了"},{"start":9885.02,"end":9890.02,"text":"可能不符合現在的政府跟企業的一個複雜的關係"},{"start":9890.02,"end":9894.02,"text":"但到目前為止請問全序部有做什麼樣子的一個因應"},{"start":9894.02,"end":9897.02,"text":"我們主要就是在114年來"},{"start":9897.02,"end":9899.02,"text":"又做了一個補充的規定"},{"start":9899.02,"end":9901.02,"text":"把適用的什麼叫盈利事業"},{"start":9901.02,"end":9904.02,"text":"盈利事業不會是只有指目的事業主管機關"},{"start":9904.02,"end":9907.02,"text":"只要是包括法定"},{"start":9907.02,"end":9912.02,"text":"這個機關法定執掌對這個盈利事業具有監督的"},{"start":9912.02,"end":9915.02,"text":"具有監督或管理的權利主管都算是進來"},{"start":9915.02,"end":9918.02,"text":"另外一個我們也增加說"},{"start":9918.02,"end":9920.02,"text":"如果涉及到投資業務"},{"start":9920.2,"end":9923.2,"text":"或者是委託經營關係都加進來"},{"start":9923.2,"end":9926.2,"text":"我想委員剛剛指教一個問題比較偏說"},{"start":9926.2,"end":9931.2,"text":"我們現在整個大的制度在台灣過的習慣都還是用特定職務"},{"start":9931.2,"end":9934.2,"text":"但是不同的國家不同的方式"},{"start":9934.2,"end":9936.2,"text":"因為你剛剛講的114年這個韓式"},{"start":9936.2,"end":9940.2,"text":"事實上是不拘束刑事這個法院的"},{"start":9940.2,"end":9943.2,"text":"所以說標準已經過時了"},{"start":9943.2,"end":9946.2,"text":"韓式又沒有司法的拘束力"},{"start":9946.2,"end":9949.2,"text":"那請問一下就是針對這個部分"},{"start":9949.2,"end":9952.2,"text":"我們這個詮釋部是不是會提出修法"},{"start":9952.3,"end":9954.3,"text":"應該這樣講我們的"},{"start":9954.3,"end":9959.3,"text":"因為我們有關這個部的法律的那個法則是刑事法"},{"start":9959.3,"end":9961.3,"text":"就是違反宣傳法是刑事法"},{"start":9961.3,"end":9962.3,"text":"並不是行政法"},{"start":9962.3,"end":9964.3,"text":"那根據大夥跟輝略的解釋"},{"start":9964.3,"end":9967.3,"text":"任何行政部門所繼之前所做的韓式"},{"start":9967.3,"end":9970.3,"text":"並不必然拘束法院的一個"},{"start":9970.3,"end":9972.3,"text":"那事實上也有一些個案"},{"start":9972.3,"end":9975.3,"text":"法院並沒有採取刑事機關法"},{"start":9975.3,"end":9977.3,"text":"所以這個部分其實是法制的一個問題"},{"start":9977.3,"end":9981.3,"text":"那我想要回過頭來談的可能比較更大議題是說"},{"start":9981.3,"end":9986.3,"text":"確實有一些特定的行為應不應該要納入規範"},{"start":9986.3,"end":9987.3,"text":"這個"},{"start":9988.24,"end":9990.24,"text":"不同國家不同的做法"},{"start":9990.24,"end":9994.24,"text":"所以這部分我們部裡面會再繼續大家來討論"},{"start":9994.24,"end":9996.24,"text":"因為那個再把行為納入規範"},{"start":9996.24,"end":9998.24,"text":"其實那個會很大很大"},{"start":9998.24,"end":10003.24,"text":"針對這個部分是不是有可能會提出有關修正第16條的相關的"},{"start":10003.24,"end":10005.24,"text":"目前確實還沒有"},{"start":10005.24,"end":10007.24,"text":"因為還沒有還沒有這個規劃"},{"start":10007.24,"end":10011.24,"text":"但是我們會繼續來跟機關來大家研商"},{"start":10011.24,"end":10013.24,"text":"那部長可不可以給我一個時間"},{"start":10013.24,"end":10016.24,"text":"就是說你們有可能何時會提出這樣子的一個修法"},{"start":10016.24,"end":10017.24,"text":"我應該跟委員報告說"},{"start":10017.24,"end":10021.24,"text":"我現在沒有辦法跟我們下一個結論說一定會提修法"},{"start":10021.24,"end":10024.24,"text":"但是我們願意再再徵詢機關這部分的意見"},{"start":10024.24,"end":10027.24,"text":"因為他真的影響還蠻大的"},{"start":10027.24,"end":10029.24,"text":"對那既然部長也認為"},{"start":10029.24,"end":10031.24,"text":"這個影響不是只有高階的公務同仁"},{"start":10031.24,"end":10032.24,"text":"是"},{"start":10032.24,"end":10034.24,"text":"這不僅僅影響政府首長"},{"start":10034.24,"end":10036.24,"text":"是所有的公務同仁都會影響"},{"start":10036.24,"end":10038.24,"text":"所以既然部長剛也提到說這影響蠻大"},{"start":10038.24,"end":10042.24,"text":"所以還是希望全序部能夠盡快的提出修法好嗎"},{"start":10042.24,"end":10043.24,"text":"我們來我們來我們努力"},{"start":10043.24,"end":10044.24,"text":"OK謝謝"},{"start":10045.75,"end":10046.75,"text":"好謝謝徐委員"},{"start":10046.75,"end":10048.75,"text":"好那我們今天現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10361.15,"end":10363.15,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會"},{"start":10363.15,"end":10366.15,"text":"首先有請洪育祥委員發言"},{"start":10372.4,"end":10374.4,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":10374.4,"end":10378.4,"text":"我們有請這個經濟部跟這個廉政署"},{"start":10379.67,"end":10382.67,"text":"麻煩請經濟部的政次江政次"},{"start":10383.79,"end":10385.79,"text":"還有剛才廉政署"},{"start":10387.39,"end":10388.39,"text":"委員好"},{"start":10388.39,"end":10389.39,"text":"您這次"},{"start":10389.45,"end":10390.45,"text":"好"},{"start":10390.45,"end":10391.45,"text":"廉政署署長"},{"start":10391.45,"end":10392.45,"text":"廉政署署長對謝謝署長"},{"start":10393.29,"end":10398.29,"text":"我想這個題目在我們經濟委員會擔任召委的時候"},{"start":10398.29,"end":10400.29,"text":"也有排過類似這樣的機制"},{"start":10400.29,"end":10402.29,"text":"那我想我今天延續了"},{"start":10402.29,"end":10407.29,"text":"這個因為可能在這個委員會沒有看過這個案子的全貌"},{"start":10407.29,"end":10411.29,"text":"其實就是整個在蘇巧淳這樣的案子"},{"start":10411.29,"end":10416.29,"text":"我想在這個經濟部還有從來底下的國發會"},{"start":10416.29,"end":10417.29,"text":"這些都清楚"},{"start":10417.29,"end":10420.29,"text":"那重點並不是說蘇巧淳"},{"start":10420.29,"end":10424.29,"text":"因為是這個蘇巧惠的妹妹蘇貞昌的女兒"},{"start":10424.29,"end":10426.29,"text":"她不能夠申請補助"},{"start":10426.29,"end":10430.29,"text":"這一點這一點一定要嚴正視聽"},{"start":10430.29,"end":10433.29,"text":"也就是說這個只要是公開的對不對公平"},{"start":10433.29,"end":10437.29,"text":"不管她是補助案投資交易等等"},{"start":10437.29,"end":10439.29,"text":"她都有資格"},{"start":10439.29,"end":10442.29,"text":"這個是要確認不要被亂洗的"},{"start":10442.29,"end":10443.29,"text":"並不是她不可以"},{"start":10443.29,"end":10444.29,"text":"可以"},{"start":10444.29,"end":10447.29,"text":"現在的問題就是在今天的立沖法這邊"},{"start":10448.61,"end":10450.61,"text":"那這立沖法我們上次已經都談過了"},{"start":10450.61,"end":10452.61,"text":"整個這個過程"},{"start":10453.52,"end":10455.52,"text":"我們假設先不看國發會"},{"start":10455.52,"end":10457.52,"text":"我們先看跟經濟部有關的"},{"start":10457.52,"end":10459.52,"text":"在商發署補助"},{"start":10459.52,"end":10462.52,"text":"不管是礦事智能、微爐、科技這邊"},{"start":10462.52,"end":10465.52,"text":"大概都是成立的也沒有問題"},{"start":10465.52,"end":10467.52,"text":"那但是有問題的是"},{"start":10467.52,"end":10471.52,"text":"這個在我們立沖法的規範裡頭"},{"start":10471.52,"end":10473.52,"text":"它必須要去揭露"},{"start":10474.55,"end":10476.55,"text":"也就是說我在申請案件的時候"},{"start":10476.55,"end":10477.55,"text":"它要揭露"},{"start":10478.41,"end":10480.41,"text":"我是利害關係人"},{"start":10480.41,"end":10481.41,"text":"所以它要填表"},{"start":10481.41,"end":10484.41,"text":"所以當時商發署也有回說"},{"start":10484.41,"end":10486.41,"text":"有些表格要填"},{"start":10486.41,"end":10488.41,"text":"但是很不幸的"},{"start":10488.41,"end":10491.41,"text":"它這個蘇巧淳等等這個案子"},{"start":10491.41,"end":10492.41,"text":"它是沒有填"},{"start":10492.41,"end":10494.41,"text":"那你們各位的回覆是"},{"start":10495.62,"end":10497.62,"text":"那填到哪裡去呢"},{"start":10498.64,"end":10501.64,"text":"它認為這一塊地方來講的話"},{"start":10501.64,"end":10505.64,"text":"我在你們的這個監察院的公職人、關係人"},{"start":10505.64,"end":10508.64,"text":"補助交易跟身份關於查詢平台"},{"start":10508.64,"end":10510.64,"text":"是查不到這一筆的資料"},{"start":10512.01,"end":10514.01,"text":"那這一個東西它認為"},{"start":10514.01,"end":10516.01,"text":"這個要由廉政署"},{"start":10516.01,"end":10519.01,"text":"來做一些事法上的一個詮釋"},{"start":10519.01,"end":10522.01,"text":"那我不曉得這個後續的回應處理"},{"start":10522.01,"end":10524.01,"text":"廉政署這邊處理了嗎"},{"start":10526.61,"end":10528.61,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":10528.61,"end":10531.61,"text":"依照我們公職人員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":10531.61,"end":10534.61,"text":"第14條的第一項的規定"},{"start":10534.61,"end":10538.61,"text":"公職人員或其關係人不得與公職人員服務"},{"start":10538.61,"end":10541.61,"text":"或受其監督機器官團體"},{"start":10541.61,"end":10545.61,"text":"為補助、買賣、租賃、承攬"},{"start":10545.61,"end":10547.61,"text":"或其他具有對價關係的行為"},{"start":10548.63,"end":10551.63,"text":"它前提是必須要符合這一些的規定"},{"start":10551.63,"end":10553.63,"text":"才有後續的一個揭露"},{"start":10553.63,"end":10555.63,"text":"那個揭露也不是全部都"},{"start":10555.63,"end":10556.63,"text":"所有都要揭露"},{"start":10556.63,"end":10561.63,"text":"是符合這裡第一項所列的一至三款"},{"start":10561.63,"end":10564.63,"text":"這樣的條件才有揭露的一個義務"},{"start":10564.63,"end":10566.63,"text":"所以你認為不需要揭露"},{"start":10567.58,"end":10569.58,"text":"要看它什麼樣的一個線"},{"start":10569.58,"end":10571.58,"text":"如果符合的話是要揭露"},{"start":10571.51,"end":10573.51,"text":"它就是符合啦"},{"start":10573.51,"end":10575.51,"text":"它就是符合啦"},{"start":10575.51,"end":10576.51,"text":"那這一件是不是符合"},{"start":10576.51,"end":10578.51,"text":"這不是我們全管"},{"start":10578.51,"end":10581.51,"text":"這個是屬於主管機關它全管的範圍"},{"start":10581.51,"end":10583.51,"text":"所以它推給你啊"},{"start":10583.81,"end":10585.81,"text":"我是推這個法律規定如此"},{"start":10586.76,"end":10588.76,"text":"它的回覆給我的是說連證署啊"},{"start":10590.92,"end":10594.92,"text":"我們不是對於這個實際上的補助"},{"start":10594.92,"end":10596.92,"text":"或者是什麼投資行為"},{"start":10596.92,"end":10597.92,"text":"我們不是它的機關"},{"start":10597.92,"end":10599.92,"text":"你是投資啊這是補助耶"},{"start":10599.92,"end":10600.92,"text":"我們不是它的機關"},{"start":10600.92,"end":10601.92,"text":"我們是法"},{"start":10601.92,"end":10603.92,"text":"我們對這個法律的規定是如此"},{"start":10603.92,"end":10606.92,"text":"我是跟委員報我們對法律解釋如此"},{"start":10606.92,"end":10607.92,"text":"至於個案"},{"start":10609.04,"end":10612.04,"text":"你的第14條第三款就寫啦"},{"start":10612.04,"end":10614.04,"text":"法定身份依法院公聽申請補助"},{"start":10614.04,"end":10617.04,"text":"公職人員至關稀人依法令規定"},{"start":10617.04,"end":10619.04,"text":"公開公平方式辦理之補助"},{"start":10619.04,"end":10620.04,"text":"這些是要揭露的啊"},{"start":10622.62,"end":10624.62,"text":"你不揭露是要罰的呢"},{"start":10624.68,"end":10625.68,"text":"我不是罰你啦"},{"start":10628.38,"end":10628.88,"text":"是啦"},{"start":10630.02,"end":10632.02,"text":"因為這個是個案的問題"},{"start":10632.02,"end":10633.02,"text":"這不是個案"},{"start":10633.02,"end":10634.02,"text":"又來了"},{"start":10635.16,"end":10637.16,"text":"每次法務部你都跟我講個案"},{"start":10637.16,"end":10638.16,"text":"連證署也跟我講個案"},{"start":10638.16,"end":10639.16,"text":"都叫個案"},{"start":10641.84,"end":10642.84,"text":"因為我們沒有這一家"},{"start":10642.84,"end":10643.84,"text":"我上網去查"},{"start":10643.84,"end":10644.84,"text":"我上網去查"},{"start":10644.84,"end":10646.84,"text":"我們很多委員"},{"start":10647.6,"end":10648.6,"text":"都很守法"},{"start":10648.6,"end":10651.6,"text":"檢查院這裡頭總共7000多個案件"},{"start":10651.6,"end":10652.6,"text":"我去查的"},{"start":10652.6,"end":10653.6,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10653.6,"end":10655.6,"text":"A立委關係企業承接台電採購法"},{"start":10657.15,"end":10658.15,"text":"依法揭露啊"},{"start":10659.38,"end":10660.38,"text":"某個立委關係人"},{"start":10660.38,"end":10663.38,"text":"他只是某某學校的董事啊"},{"start":10663.38,"end":10666.38,"text":"那學校取得國科會的補助啊"},{"start":10666.38,"end":10668.38,"text":"按照產創的條例"},{"start":10668.38,"end":10669.38,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10669.38,"end":10670.38,"text":"科學技術基本法"},{"start":10670.38,"end":10671.38,"text":"促餐法等等"},{"start":10671.38,"end":10672.38,"text":"他都有揭露啊"},{"start":10672.38,"end":10673.38,"text":"77萬都有揭露"},{"start":10673.38,"end":10675.38,"text":"260萬都有揭露"},{"start":10675.38,"end":10677.38,"text":"199.9萬不用揭露"},{"start":10679.78,"end":10680.78,"text":"這家伙案"},{"start":10681.75,"end":10683.75,"text":"現在是跟你討論機制耶"},{"start":10683.75,"end":10684.75,"text":"法就定在這裡"},{"start":10687.05,"end":10688.05,"text":"我沒有他們"},{"start":10688.05,"end":10690.05,"text":"我沒有他們實際上這一個"},{"start":10690.05,"end":10692.05,"text":"所以是商法署沒有把資料給你"},{"start":10692.05,"end":10693.05,"text":"對 我們沒有這個資料"},{"start":10693.05,"end":10695.05,"text":"他的全管單位我們並不是全管單位"},{"start":10695.05,"end":10697.05,"text":"我沒有辦法去認定說"},{"start":10697.05,"end":10699.05,"text":"到底他是什麼樣的一個法律行為"},{"start":10699.05,"end":10700.05,"text":"來 商法署經濟部"},{"start":10700.05,"end":10701.05,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":10703.73,"end":10705.73,"text":"柯委員報告這個個案"},{"start":10705.73,"end":10708.73,"text":"因為是涉及到立法委員的話"},{"start":10708.73,"end":10710.73,"text":"就是在監察院"},{"start":10710.73,"end":10712.73,"text":"個案會在監察院處理"},{"start":10714.78,"end":10716.78,"text":"我只會叫你公開而已耶"},{"start":10716.78,"end":10718.78,"text":"你的立法法這邊是公開"},{"start":10718.78,"end":10719.78,"text":"你去把法條看清楚"},{"start":10723.23,"end":10724.23,"text":"你們都給我"},{"start":10724.84,"end":10726.84,"text":"你再這樣子我經委會找我再排一次"},{"start":10730.15,"end":10732.15,"text":"然後再請我們這個翁仁再聯繫好了"},{"start":10734.94,"end":10735.94,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10735.94,"end":10737.94,"text":"謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":10737.94,"end":10738.94,"text":"第一個呢"},{"start":10738.94,"end":10739.94,"text":"我現在不是跟你討論個案"},{"start":10739.94,"end":10741.94,"text":"我現在就是機制"},{"start":10741.94,"end":10742.94,"text":"所以我上次你們也答應我"},{"start":10742.94,"end":10743.94,"text":"會跟聯政署"},{"start":10743.94,"end":10745.94,"text":"聯政署我派代表來喔"},{"start":10745.94,"end":10746.94,"text":"不是署長來"},{"start":10747.63,"end":10748.63,"text":"我派代表來"},{"start":10748.63,"end":10750.63,"text":"他說你們兩個會回去研究"},{"start":10750.63,"end":10751.63,"text":"上次是這個"},{"start":10751.63,"end":10753.63,"text":"我不曉得是哪一個次長"},{"start":10753.63,"end":10755.63,"text":"應該是何次還是賴次這樣子"},{"start":10755.63,"end":10756.63,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10756.63,"end":10758.63,"text":"我們確實會後有做"},{"start":10758.63,"end":10760.63,"text":"您關心我們有做檢討"},{"start":10760.63,"end":10761.63,"text":"第一個呢"},{"start":10761.63,"end":10762.63,"text":"因為呢"},{"start":10762.63,"end":10766.63,"text":"這個我們現在就是按照委員的要求"},{"start":10766.63,"end":10771.63,"text":"我們要清查過去五年所有的補助案件"},{"start":10771.63,"end":10774.63,"text":"這個第一個現在已經開始啟動"},{"start":10774.63,"end":10775.63,"text":"另外還有呢"},{"start":10775.63,"end":10777.63,"text":"其實我們部裡面"},{"start":10777.63,"end":10781.63,"text":"各個機關都有這些揭露的這個網頁"},{"start":10781.63,"end":10782.63,"text":"但是"},{"start":10783.63,"end":10784.63,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":10784.63,"end":10785.63,"text":"沒有你揭露網頁沒關係"},{"start":10785.63,"end":10786.63,"text":"揭露網頁可以慢慢做"},{"start":10786.63,"end":10788.63,"text":"但是起碼可以上到監察院"},{"start":10788.63,"end":10790.63,"text":"剛剛我列的這個平台"},{"start":10790.63,"end":10791.63,"text":"因為上次是"},{"start":10794.53,"end":10797.53,"text":"剛剛您關心的案件呢"},{"start":10797.53,"end":10801.53,"text":"其實監察院已經有主動來請經濟部提供相關的資訊"},{"start":10801.53,"end":10805.53,"text":"我們也依照監察院的來函提供了相關的資訊"},{"start":10805.53,"end":10808.53,"text":"現在已經都給監察院在進行相關的調查"},{"start":10808.53,"end":10811.53,"text":"對因為他如果沒有揭露的話"},{"start":10812.28,"end":10814.28,"text":"在這個第19條"},{"start":10814.28,"end":10818.28,"text":"律從法的第18條是罰你們機關"},{"start":10818.28,"end":10819.28,"text":"罰商務署"},{"start":10819.28,"end":10820.28,"text":"商法署"},{"start":10820.28,"end":10822.28,"text":"然後第19條是罰個人"},{"start":10822.28,"end":10824.28,"text":"比如說他還是具不提供嘛對不對"},{"start":10824.28,"end":10825.28,"text":"申請人這個不提供"},{"start":10825.28,"end":10827.28,"text":"我有什麼很生氣的地方是說"},{"start":10827.28,"end":10829.28,"text":"上次我已經講過了"},{"start":10829.85,"end":10831.85,"text":"我們審查委員審東西啊"},{"start":10832.94,"end":10834.94,"text":"我要先填什麼"},{"start":10835.72,"end":10836.72,"text":"有沒有另一回避"},{"start":10838.71,"end":10839.71,"text":"我要揭露嘛"},{"start":10839.71,"end":10842.71,"text":"我們審查委員都要填都要揭露"},{"start":10842.71,"end":10845.71,"text":"申請人他更應該要揭露嘛"},{"start":10845.71,"end":10847.71,"text":"申請人揭露了之後"},{"start":10847.71,"end":10850.71,"text":"我作為一個審查委員明白有這層關係"},{"start":10850.71,"end":10851.71,"text":"只是明白"},{"start":10851.71,"end":10855.71,"text":"但不影響我審查他這個案子是不是"},{"start":10855.71,"end":10857.71,"text":"符合這個補助的要值"},{"start":10857.71,"end":10861.71,"text":"如果他公司的產品服務能力很好"},{"start":10861.71,"end":10862.71,"text":"該補就要補啊"},{"start":10862.71,"end":10866.71,"text":"我不會因為他是總統的女兒什麼什麼行政院長的兒子"},{"start":10866.71,"end":10867.71,"text":"這跟那個也沒關係"},{"start":10867.71,"end":10869.71,"text":"是跟他的技術能力有關係"},{"start":10869.71,"end":10871.71,"text":"這一點是要肯定啊對不對"},{"start":10871.71,"end":10874.71,"text":"因為審查委員是從專業去弄嘛"},{"start":10876.04,"end":10879.04,"text":"那可是如果審查人不知道"},{"start":10879.04,"end":10880.04,"text":"我覺得這個就不對嘛"},{"start":10880.04,"end":10882.04,"text":"所以立法法這邊的話"},{"start":10882.04,"end":10883.04,"text":"他規定的是這樣"},{"start":10883.04,"end":10885.04,"text":"你事後也可以公開啊"},{"start":10885.04,"end":10886.04,"text":"補也可以啊"},{"start":10888.3,"end":10891.3,"text":"所以我要追的是這件事情啊"},{"start":10891.3,"end":10893.3,"text":"再麻煩連任署"},{"start":10893.3,"end":10894.3,"text":"我再問一個"},{"start":10894.97,"end":10896.97,"text":"請進去部請回"},{"start":10897.86,"end":10899.86,"text":"然後呢我想要問一下連任政所"},{"start":10899.86,"end":10902.86,"text":"上次呢我是沒有在公開講"},{"start":10903.42,"end":10905.42,"text":"我們就拿這個來看啊"},{"start":10908.39,"end":10909.39,"text":"我請問一下"},{"start":10910.95,"end":10913.95,"text":"什麼叫做具有對價之交易行為"},{"start":10913.95,"end":10914.95,"text":"你的認知"},{"start":10914.95,"end":10916.95,"text":"那個經濟部請回沒關係"},{"start":10918.54,"end":10922.54,"text":"我關於具有這個關於這一條的一個法律的規定"},{"start":10922.54,"end":10928.54,"text":"它是有補助買賣租賃承攬或其他具有對價關係的交易行為"},{"start":10928.54,"end":10930.54,"text":"那所謂具有對價關係"},{"start":10931.54,"end":10933.54,"text":"交易行為它有兩個部位"},{"start":10933.54,"end":10935.54,"text":"一個具有對價關係一個交易行為"},{"start":10935.54,"end":10937.54,"text":"那我簡單問好了"},{"start":10937.54,"end":10939.54,"text":"我用一個個例子啦"},{"start":10940.94,"end":10942.94,"text":"假設你開一家公司嘛"},{"start":10942.94,"end":10944.94,"text":"我投資五百萬嘛"},{"start":10944.94,"end":10946.94,"text":"我換得你的股票嘛"},{"start":10946.94,"end":10948.94,"text":"這算不算對價交易"},{"start":10948.94,"end":10949.94,"text":"那不一定"},{"start":10949.94,"end":10951.94,"text":"那我跟有人解釋一下喔"},{"start":10951.94,"end":10952.94,"text":"那個對價通常"},{"start":10952.94,"end":10954.94,"text":"那你先告訴我試的是什麼"},{"start":10955.47,"end":10957.47,"text":"我現在跟您解釋"},{"start":10957.47,"end":10958.47,"text":"對價的關係喔"},{"start":10958.47,"end":10960.47,"text":"像買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":10960.47,"end":10962.47,"text":"它會有一個大概一個市場的價格"},{"start":10962.47,"end":10964.47,"text":"所以我們去交易的話"},{"start":10964.47,"end":10966.47,"text":"它會有所謂的對價"},{"start":10966.47,"end":10968.47,"text":"但是投資的項目它可能就很廣"},{"start":10968.58,"end":10971.58,"text":"它有它也許有具有它的一個政策目的做的投資"},{"start":10971.58,"end":10973.58,"text":"我沒有跟你講政策目的"},{"start":10973.58,"end":10974.58,"text":"你在對號入座"},{"start":10974.58,"end":10975.58,"text":"我現在講的是一般"},{"start":10975.58,"end":10977.58,"text":"我就投資你的公司"},{"start":10977.58,"end":10978.58,"text":"我付你五百萬"},{"start":10978.58,"end":10980.58,"text":"然後取得你的股票二十張"},{"start":10980.58,"end":10981.58,"text":"我們兩個合意的嘛"},{"start":10981.58,"end":10983.58,"text":"這算不算對價之交易行為啦"},{"start":10983.58,"end":10984.58,"text":"那我想這個喔"},{"start":10984.58,"end":10986.58,"text":"對這個投資本身"},{"start":10986.58,"end":10988.58,"text":"你只要回答是或不是啦"},{"start":10989,"end":10991,"text":"投資它的一個定義法律"},{"start":10991,"end":10993,"text":"並沒有一個明確的規定"},{"start":10993,"end":10995,"text":"你看那個在民法"},{"start":10995,"end":10997,"text":"買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":10997,"end":10998,"text":"它都有一個法"},{"start":10998,"end":11000,"text":"民法都有規定"},{"start":11000,"end":11001,"text":"但是投資並沒有"},{"start":11001,"end":11003,"text":"部長這樣解釋可以嗎"},{"start":11004.47,"end":11005.47,"text":"我不曉得部長"},{"start":11005.47,"end":11007.47,"text":"我現在付五百萬買股票"},{"start":11007.47,"end":11010.47,"text":"換得你二十張算不算對價交易"},{"start":11011.32,"end":11013.32,"text":"我想這個事實"},{"start":11013.32,"end":11015.32,"text":"這個是委員所關心的"},{"start":11015.32,"end":11017.32,"text":"是一個事實的一個認定"},{"start":11017.32,"end":11019.32,"text":"那這部分還在研議"},{"start":11019.32,"end":11021.32,"text":"那我們回到十四條"},{"start":11021.32,"end":11022.32,"text":"來一個看"},{"start":11022.32,"end":11024.32,"text":"他說其他具有對價之交易行為"},{"start":11024.32,"end":11026.32,"text":"前面有講利是就是"},{"start":11026.32,"end":11027.32,"text":"買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":11027.32,"end":11028.32,"text":"這個在民法規定"},{"start":11028.32,"end":11029.32,"text":"這是一個雙武器"},{"start":11029.32,"end":11030.32,"text":"我們要管前面"},{"start":11030.32,"end":11031.32,"text":"前面有多清楚"},{"start":11031.32,"end":11032.32,"text":"這個就是一個利是"},{"start":11032.32,"end":11033.32,"text":"從這個民法這個裡面"},{"start":11033.32,"end":11035.32,"text":"從那個買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":11035.32,"end":11036.32,"text":"就可以看出"},{"start":11036.32,"end":11038.32,"text":"是不是一個對價的交易行為"},{"start":11038.32,"end":11040.32,"text":"這本身是要雙方的一個對價"},{"start":11040.32,"end":11042.32,"text":"而且它必須有一個"},{"start":11042.32,"end":11043.32,"text":"所以我們現在可以"},{"start":11043.32,"end":11044.32,"text":"跟面法律的人說"},{"start":11044.32,"end":11046.32,"text":"我花五百萬"},{"start":11046.32,"end":11048.32,"text":"然後換得公司股票二十張"},{"start":11048.32,"end":11051.32,"text":"這個利是這個不準確啦"},{"start":11051.32,"end":11053.32,"text":"這個還是需要做一個"},{"start":11053.32,"end":11054.32,"text":"個案上的一個認定"},{"start":11054.32,"end":11055.32,"text":"我沒有要個案"},{"start":11055.32,"end":11056.32,"text":"我現在只會問說"},{"start":11056.32,"end":11057.32,"text":"這個權利"},{"start":11057.32,"end":11058.32,"text":"這個是認定的權利"},{"start":11058.32,"end":11060.32,"text":"是在屬於監察院嗎"},{"start":11060.32,"end":11061.32,"text":"我們沒辦法幫監察院"},{"start":11061.32,"end":11062.32,"text":"回答這個問題"},{"start":11062.32,"end":11064.32,"text":"這個的確我們"},{"start":11064.32,"end":11065.32,"text":"這是行政的認定權"},{"start":11065.32,"end":11066.32,"text":"他的認定權"},{"start":11066.32,"end":11068.32,"text":"以及要不要裁罰"},{"start":11068.32,"end":11069.32,"text":"你知道我在問哪一個案子喔"},{"start":11069.32,"end":11070.32,"text":"我知道啊"},{"start":11070.32,"end":11071.32,"text":"但是你舉例說明啊"},{"start":11071.32,"end":11072.32,"text":"我都還沒說你就知道"},{"start":11072.32,"end":11073.32,"text":"我在問哪一個案子"},{"start":11073.32,"end":11074.32,"text":"剛才我在那邊聽"},{"start":11074.32,"end":11076.32,"text":"我就可以看出來"},{"start":11076.32,"end":11077.32,"text":"哪一個"},{"start":11077.32,"end":11078.32,"text":"剛才就是一個"},{"start":11078.32,"end":11080.32,"text":"一個投資的行為嘛"},{"start":11081.44,"end":11083.44,"text":"哪一個案子是有投資行為"},{"start":11083.44,"end":11085.44,"text":"我想這部分委員關心的"},{"start":11085.44,"end":11086.44,"text":"應該今天剛才各位委員"},{"start":11086.44,"end":11088.44,"text":"已經都問得蠻多了嘛"},{"start":11089.35,"end":11090.35,"text":"所以這個一個"},{"start":11090.35,"end":11092.35,"text":"我們回歸到那個第14條的"},{"start":11092.35,"end":11093.35,"text":"這些的"},{"start":11093.35,"end":11094.35,"text":"好 我也不要耽誤時間啦"},{"start":11094.35,"end":11096.35,"text":"我想說你們今天的回答都一樣"},{"start":11096.35,"end":11097.35,"text":"不然我們下次就請示範"},{"start":11097.35,"end":11098.35,"text":"修法好了"},{"start":11098.35,"end":11100.35,"text":"我們也看看這個"},{"start":11100.35,"end":11101.35,"text":"投資"},{"start":11101.35,"end":11102.35,"text":"投資的話"},{"start":11102.35,"end":11104.35,"text":"不算對價交易行為"},{"start":11104.35,"end":11106.35,"text":"這個一個交易行為"},{"start":11106.35,"end":11108.35,"text":"這個一定要合乎到"},{"start":11108.35,"end":11109.35,"text":"這落入公報喔"},{"start":11109.35,"end":11111.35,"text":"一個交易的行為"},{"start":11111.35,"end":11113.35,"text":"那這部分要合乎這個定義"},{"start":11113.35,"end":11114.35,"text":"那我們只能就"},{"start":11114.35,"end":11115.35,"text":"法條上就來一個"},{"start":11115.35,"end":11116.35,"text":"做一個解釋嘛"},{"start":11116.35,"end":11118.35,"text":"來一個觀察嘛"},{"start":11118.35,"end":11120.35,"text":"所以以後我們如果要"},{"start":11120.35,"end":11122.35,"text":"規避這種利害關係法"},{"start":11122.35,"end":11123.35,"text":"規避這種"},{"start":11123.35,"end":11124.35,"text":"這個法律規定的很準喔"},{"start":11124.35,"end":11126.35,"text":"我只要買賣股票"},{"start":11126.35,"end":11128.35,"text":"然後交易這樣就不算了嘛"},{"start":11128.35,"end":11129.35,"text":"這個是"},{"start":11129.35,"end":11130.35,"text":"這個就是一個很明確的"},{"start":11130.35,"end":11132.35,"text":"一個法律的規定"},{"start":11132.35,"end":11133.35,"text":"我當然知道啊"},{"start":11133.35,"end":11134.35,"text":"這很明確的規定"},{"start":11134.35,"end":11135.35,"text":"所以他這個買"},{"start":11135.35,"end":11136.35,"text":"所以我現在在問你說"},{"start":11136.35,"end":11138.35,"text":"對價交易行為你的認定是說"},{"start":11138.35,"end":11139.35,"text":"我投資股"},{"start":11139.35,"end":11140.35,"text":"投資你錢"},{"start":11140.35,"end":11141.35,"text":"我沒辦法"},{"start":11141.35,"end":11142.35,"text":"我沒辦法在這個"},{"start":11142.35,"end":11143.35,"text":"裡面的假設問題去"},{"start":11143.35,"end":11145.35,"text":"去做一個認定"},{"start":11145.35,"end":11146.35,"text":"我想這個就經過"},{"start":11146.35,"end":11147.35,"text":"當然要經過討論跟研議"},{"start":11147.35,"end":11148.35,"text":"是不是"},{"start":11148.35,"end":11149.35,"text":"從個案上是不是"},{"start":11149.35,"end":11151.35,"text":"有成立這樣的"},{"start":11151.35,"end":11153.35,"text":"法條的這樣的一個規定"},{"start":11153.35,"end":11154.35,"text":"那所以說"},{"start":11154.35,"end":11155.35,"text":"在這樣我沒辦法就是說"},{"start":11155.35,"end":11156.35,"text":"舉一個例就認為"},{"start":11156.35,"end":11157.35,"text":"這就是一個交易"},{"start":11157.35,"end":11158.35,"text":"就有對價的交易"},{"start":11158.35,"end":11159.35,"text":"或者沒有對價交易"},{"start":11159.35,"end":11160.35,"text":"這我沒辦法做"},{"start":11160.35,"end":11161.35,"text":"這樣的一個回答"},{"start":11163.52,"end":11164.52,"text":"所以你的答案就是"},{"start":11164.52,"end":11165.52,"text":"不知道"},{"start":11165.52,"end":11166.52,"text":"不是說不知道"},{"start":11166.52,"end":11168.52,"text":"這個要再做一個研議嘛"},{"start":11168.52,"end":11169.52,"text":"這個還在"},{"start":11169.52,"end":11170.52,"text":"因為個案我們並不清楚"},{"start":11170.52,"end":11172.52,"text":"這個個案到底是怎樣"},{"start":11172.52,"end":11173.52,"text":"好啦我今天終於上了一個"},{"start":11173.52,"end":11175.52,"text":"非常珍貴的法學課好不好"},{"start":11175.52,"end":11177.52,"text":"投資500萬"},{"start":11177.52,"end":11179.52,"text":"換得股票20張"},{"start":11179.52,"end":11180.52,"text":"不算交易對價"},{"start":11180.52,"end":11183.52,"text":"這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題"},{"start":11183.52,"end":11184.52,"text":"我沒有就是說是或不是"},{"start":11184.52,"end":11186.52,"text":"我沒辦法去回答"},{"start":11186.52,"end":11188.52,"text":"好謝謝洪委員"},{"start":11188.52,"end":11190.52,"text":"部長這個對價的關係"},{"start":11190.52,"end":11192.52,"text":"在法律上有很清楚的定義啦"},{"start":11192.52,"end":11194.52,"text":"對啊這個"},{"start":11194.52,"end":11196.52,"text":"您幹嘛這樣子講"},{"start":11198.21,"end":11200.21,"text":"這不只是買賣出認成懶啦"},{"start":11200.21,"end":11203.21,"text":"包含等價性啊交換性的這種"},{"start":11203.21,"end":11205.21,"text":"都是具有對價的"},{"start":11205.21,"end":11206.21,"text":"這個部分的話"},{"start":11206.21,"end":11207.21,"text":"希望就是您之後"},{"start":11207.21,"end":11209.21,"text":"可以再提供給我們一份"},{"start":11209.21,"end":11212.21,"text":"我們法律上什麼叫對價關係的解釋"},{"start":11212.21,"end":11213.21,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":11213.21,"end":11215.21,"text":"這個因為洪委員有提出嘛"},{"start":11215.21,"end":11218.21,"text":"就請法務部來解釋對價關係"},{"start":11218.21,"end":11221.21,"text":"我們在實務上還有法律上"},{"start":11221.21,"end":11223.21,"text":"我們現在所認定的對價關係"},{"start":11223.21,"end":11225.21,"text":"是什麼涵蓋哪些範圍"},{"start":11225.21,"end":11226.21,"text":"然後提供一份報告"},{"start":11226.21,"end":11228.21,"text":"報告給我們司委會"},{"start":11228.21,"end":11230.21,"text":"然後我會再轉給所有的委員們做參考"},{"start":11230.21,"end":11232.21,"text":"那接下來我們就請"},{"start":11232.21,"end":11233.21,"text":"賴世寶委員發言"},{"start":11240.2,"end":11241.2,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":11241.2,"end":11242.2,"text":"一起各位先進"},{"start":11242.76,"end":11244.76,"text":"有請法務部的政部長"},{"start":11244.76,"end":11246.76,"text":"以及衛福部的"},{"start":11247.13,"end":11249.13,"text":"這個林次長"},{"start":11249.13,"end":11251.13,"text":"有請政部長跟林次長"},{"start":11252.47,"end":11253.47,"text":"委員好"},{"start":11253.47,"end":11254.47,"text":"兩位長官好"},{"start":11254.47,"end":11258.47,"t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"text":"我看一下跟死人有關的團體訴訟"},{"start":11769.51,"end":11771.51,"text":"2011年的塑化劑"},{"start":11773.38,"end":11775.38,"text":"2014年的頂新事件"},{"start":11775.38,"end":11777.38,"text":"結果很悲哀的啦"},{"start":11778.24,"end":11781.24,"text":"團體訴訟結果賠償一點點"},{"start":11781.24,"end":11783.24,"text":"然後結果就是什麼"},{"start":11784.11,"end":11785.11,"text":"加強"},{"start":11785.33,"end":11786.33,"text":"賠償"},{"start":11786.34,"end":11787.34,"text":"賠償金額提高"},{"start":11787.34,"end":11788.34,"text":"要消防"},{"start":11789.13,"end":11790.13,"text":"我都安寧了"},{"start":11790.96,"end":11792.96,"text":"所以大家有要學要美"},{"start":11793.45,"end":11794.45,"text":"我覺得這一部分啊"},{"start":11794.45,"end":11797.45,"text":"你剛才根據49條50條"},{"start":11797.45,"end":11799.45,"text":"消保法4950條"},{"start":11799.45,"end":11801.45,"text":"說什麼等等的"},{"start":11801.45,"end":11803.45,"text":"我覺得請問你一個東西"},{"start":11803.45,"end":11805.45,"text":"消保處可以不可以"},{"start":11805.45,"end":11809.45,"text":"當成團體訴訟的發動者之一"},{"start":11809.45,"end":11810.45,"text":"可不可以"},{"start":11810.45,"end":11812.45,"text":"有人跟你告訟的話可不可以"},{"start":11812.95,"end":11814.95,"text":"我們現在依照法律的"},{"start":11814.95,"end":11816.95,"text":"可以提起團體訴訟的"},{"start":11816.95,"end":11818.95,"text":"就是這個兩個優良的消保團體"},{"start":11818.95,"end":11820.95,"text":"而且要優良的消保團體才可以"},{"start":11820.95,"end":11822.95,"text":"那我們消保處其實就是"},{"start":11822.95,"end":11824.95,"text":"站在一個協助他們的立場"},{"start":11824.95,"end":11826.95,"text":"還有跟各機關協調"},{"start":11826.95,"end":11828.95,"text":"比如說這次跟衛福部說"},{"start":11828.95,"end":11830.95,"text":"來我請教部長啦"},{"start":11830.95,"end":11832.95,"text":"我們可不可以修法讓消保處"},{"start":11832.95,"end":11834.95,"text":"也可以"},{"start":11834.84,"end":11836.84,"text":"類同啊"},{"start":11836.84,"end":11838.84,"text":"這個我們的消保團體"},{"start":11838.84,"end":11842.84,"text":"這樣你老百姓受傷了"},{"start":11842.84,"end":11844.84,"text":"來找我消保處替你團體訴訟"},{"start":11844.84,"end":11846.84,"text":"快點啦"},{"start":11846.55,"end":11848.55,"text":"民法官"},{"start":11848.58,"end":11850.58,"text":"民法官"},{"start":11849.99,"end":11850.99,"text":"SRD部"},{"start":11850.99,"end":11851.99,"text":"部長SRD部"},{"start":11853.66,"end":11855.66,"text":"這個是"},{"start":11855.66,"end":11857.66,"text":"因為消保處不是一個機關"},{"start":11857.66,"end":11859.66,"text":"那這部分消保法正"},{"start":11859.66,"end":11861.66,"text":"怎麼規定我們尊重"},{"start":11861.66,"end":11863.66,"text":"我們的修法啊"},{"start":11863.66,"end":11865.66,"text":"我們的修法啊"},{"start":11865.66,"end":11867.66,"text":"讓消保處可以當成團體訴訟"},{"start":11867.66,"end":11869.66,"text":"窗口不行啊"},{"start":11869.66,"end":11871.66,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":11871.66,"end":11873.66,"text":"事實上最重要的扣留"},{"start":11873.66,"end":11875.66,"text":"讓團體受傷"},{"start":11875.66,"end":11877.66,"text":"很多的多管齊下"},{"start":11877.66,"end":11879.66,"text":"我剛有跟委員報告過了"},{"start":11879.66,"end":11881.66,"text":"跟其他委員報告"},{"start":11881.66,"end":11883.66,"text":"我們有扣了"},{"start":11883.66,"end":11885.66,"text":"在兩億多範圍"},{"start":11885.66,"end":11887.66,"text":"有扣了1億2千6百萬"},{"start":11887.66,"end":11889.66,"text":"那另外那個消保處"},{"start":11889.66,"end":11891.66,"text":"那部分他有協助那個"},{"start":11891.66,"end":11893.66,"text":"消保團體"},{"start":11893.66,"end":11895.66,"text":"去依照民事訴訟委員"},{"start":11895.66,"end":11897.66,"text":"做一個民事的扣押"},{"start":11897.66,"end":11899.66,"text":"那另外衛福部這邊有十安法"},{"start":11899.66,"end":11901.66,"text":"的49條之一"},{"start":11901.66,"end":11903.66,"text":"可以做行政扣留"},{"start":11903.66,"end":11905.66,"text":"跟行政法院"},{"start":11905.66,"end":11907.66,"text":"行政路線跟行政法院來申請假扣押"},{"start":11907.66,"end":11909.66,"text":"那其實地方的消保官他們"},{"start":11909.66,"end":11911.66,"text":"那個損害賠償那個專務協助這被害者"},{"start":11911.66,"end":11913.66,"text":"你沒有抓到我重點"},{"start":11913.66,"end":11915.66,"text":"我的重點是說"},{"start":11916.08,"end":11918.08,"text":"可以不可以修法"},{"start":11918.08,"end":11920.08,"text":"讓這個修法這個不是"},{"start":11920.08,"end":11922.08,"text":"法務部的委員報告"},{"start":11922.08,"end":11924.08,"text":"你不修你不修我來修"},{"start":11924.08,"end":11926.08,"text":"我要讓消保處可以成為"},{"start":11926.08,"end":11928.08,"text":"團體訴訟的一個窗口"},{"start":11928.08,"end":11930.08,"text":"因為這些廠商怕的是"},{"start":11930.08,"end":11932.08,"text":"官不是怕這些民間團體"},{"start":11932.08,"end":11934.08,"text":"敢敢說是這樣啦"},{"start":11934.08,"end":11936.08,"text":"我就跟你講"},{"start":11936.46,"end":11938.46,"text":"我應該補充嗎"},{"start":11938.46,"end":11940.46,"text":"你補充你補充"},{"start":11940.46,"end":11942.46,"text":"第一個就是有關於這個"},{"start":11942.46,"end":11944.46,"text":"當事人能力的部分其實跟民事訴訟有關"},{"start":11944.46,"end":11946.46,"text":"就剛剛部長有提到說這個"},{"start":11946.46,"end":11948.46,"text":"民事訴訟的部分我們是一個單位"},{"start":11948.46,"end":11950.46,"text":"所以原則上在民事訴訟那邊提起這個"},{"start":11950.46,"end":11952.46,"text":"就是代為是有問題的"},{"start":11952.46,"end":11954.46,"text":"那第二個就是說"},{"start":11954.46,"end":11956.46,"text":"這個其實現在兩個優良消保團體"},{"start":11956.46,"end":11958.46,"text":"在這個過程當中其實還有"},{"start":11958.46,"end":11960.46,"text":"歷來的從以前十安法103年"},{"start":11960.46,"end":11962.46,"text":"修正以來其實他們其實"},{"start":11962.46,"end":11964.46,"text":"運作的非常好在十安法裡面"},{"start":11964.46,"end":11966.46,"text":"所以你的意思是不要給他搶生意就對了啦"},{"start":11966.46,"end":11968.46,"text":"就是說他們其實"},{"start":11968.46,"end":11970.46,"text":"這兩個優良消保團體其實真的做得很好"},{"start":11970.46,"end":11972.46,"text":"相當有經驗然後他們有律師團"},{"start":11972.46,"end":11974.46,"text":"好我請問最後一個"},{"start":11974.46,"end":11976.46,"text":"小問題我下去了"},{"start":11976.46,"end":11978.46,"text":"可不可以代為求償"},{"start":11978.46,"end":11980.46,"text":"我們政府來代為求償"},{"start":11980.46,"end":11982.46,"text":"代為求償是這樣就是說"},{"start":11982.46,"end":11984.46,"text":"我們現在的做法因為現在用十安基金"},{"start":11984.46,"end":11986.46,"text":"來支應這個訴訟費用"},{"start":11986.46,"end":11988.46,"text":"其實消費者也是不用出錢的就如同"},{"start":11988.46,"end":11990.46,"text":"剛剛跟國務院報告兩個優良消保團體"},{"start":11990.46,"end":11992.46,"text":"有律師團現在做得非常好"},{"start":11992.46,"end":11994.46,"text":"那在104年左右"},{"start":11994.46,"end":11996.46,"text":"曾經有地方政府是代為求償的"},{"start":11996.46,"end":11998.46,"text":"就是先發給這個十安法"},{"start":11998.46,"end":12000.46,"text":"裡面56條第三項最低的金額"},{"start":12000.46,"end":12002.46,"text":"500塊但是其實"},{"start":12002.46,"end":12004.46,"text":"後來的最後其實只有"},{"start":12004.46,"end":12006.46,"text":"4個民眾登記"},{"start":12006.46,"end":12008.46,"text":"所以那個效果好不好我們其實"},{"start":12008.46,"end":12010.46,"text":"可以後面再補充一句啦"},{"start":12010.46,"end":12012.46,"text":"其實老百姓要的不是說我"},{"start":12012.46,"end":12014.46,"text":"買了退伍多少錢"},{"start":12014.46,"end":12016.46,"text":"我們要說吃得死不這樣而已啦"},{"start":12016.46,"end":12018.46,"text":"關心是健康的"},{"start":12018.46,"end":12020.46,"text":"問題啦不是money talk"},{"start":12020.46,"end":12022.46,"text":"是身體健康的問題"},{"start":12022.46,"end":12024.46,"text":"我吃了一天會怎樣"},{"start":12024.46,"end":12026.46,"text":"我不會慢性自殺"},{"start":12026.46,"end":12028.46,"text":"現在慢慢累積以後就"},{"start":12028.46,"end":12030.46,"text":"哪天得到cancer了原來就"},{"start":12030.46,"end":12032.46,"text":"吃這個現在沒辦法抓了"},{"start":12032.46,"end":12034.46,"text":"因為短時間沒辦法去"},{"start":12034.46,"end":12036.46,"text":"知道說因果關係"},{"start":12036.46,"end":12038.46,"text":"吃了以後多久會"},{"start":12038.46,"end":12040.46,"text":"得cancer也不知道"},{"start":12040.46,"end":12042.46,"text":"我也不知道我也不擺爛"},{"start":12042.46,"end":12044.46,"text":"所以之前的那個鼎鑫案"},{"start":12044.46,"end":12046.46,"text":"的時候其實是用非財產上的損害"},{"start":12046.46,"end":12048.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12049.64,"end":12051.64,"text":"謝謝賴時邦委員"},{"start":12051.64,"end":12053.64,"text":"接下來我們有請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":12054.65,"end":12056.65,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12056.48,"end":12058.48,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12060.83,"end":12062.83,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請衛福士次長"},{"start":12062.83,"end":12064.83,"text":"跟法務部部長"},{"start":12064.83,"end":12066.83,"text":"麻煩請部長跟次長"},{"start":12068.86,"end":12070.86,"text":"來部長次長我再確認一下"},{"start":12070.86,"end":12072.86,"text":"因為昨天其實衛福部食藥署"},{"start":12072.86,"end":12074.86,"text":"就已經有開記者會也講到"},{"start":12074.86,"end":12076.86,"text":"是說有可能這一次的油品"},{"start":12076.86,"end":12078.86,"text":"主要的原因是所謂"},{"start":12078.86,"end":12080.86,"text":"去年中聯放寬他的"},{"start":12080.86,"end":12082.86,"text":"熱損率黃豆熱損率"},{"start":12082.86,"end":12084.86,"text":"這個是昨天食藥署署長所說的嗎"},{"start":12084.86,"end":12086.86,"text":"是不是這樣子"},{"start":12087.07,"end":12089.07,"text":"怎麼會"},{"start":12089.07,"end":12091.07,"text":"剛剛賴時邦委員在問也是問說"},{"start":12091.07,"end":12093.07,"text":"原因你們昨天才開了記者會"},{"start":12093.07,"end":12095.07,"text":"那你們記者會不是有講到是說"},{"start":12095.07,"end":12097.07,"text":"有可能是去年中聯他們"},{"start":12097.07,"end":12099.07,"text":"四肢放寬從原本的0.5%"},{"start":12099.07,"end":12101.07,"text":"放寬變成是5%"},{"start":12101.07,"end":12103.07,"text":"而造成說有可能"},{"start":12103.07,"end":12105.07,"text":"這個致癌的因子大增"},{"start":12105.07,"end":12107.07,"text":"是不是這樣"},{"start":12107.07,"end":12109.07,"text":"委員現在我們就認為是說整個"},{"start":12109.07,"end":12111.07,"text":"本篇皮在中聯這個案子"},{"start":12111.07,"end":12113.07,"text":"當然我們的調查小組應該在這個"},{"start":12113.07,"end":12115.07,"text":"目前應該是在禮拜五會有一個"},{"start":12115.07,"end":12117.07,"text":"報告出來"},{"start":12117.07,"end":12119.07,"text":"昨天的記者會你們才講"},{"start":12119.07,"end":12121.07,"text":"讓國人也覺得是說你怎麼會"},{"start":12121.07,"end":12123.07,"text":"中聯放寬因為5%"},{"start":12123.07,"end":12125.07,"text":"的percentage其實是食品加工"},{"start":12125.07,"end":12127.07,"text":"最高只有0.5%"},{"start":12127.07,"end":12129.07,"text":"5%percentage是連所謂的"},{"start":12129.07,"end":12131.07,"text":"食品加工第四級都"},{"start":12131.07,"end":12133.07,"text":"不合格所以他當然"},{"start":12133.07,"end":12135.07,"text":"很可惡但我現在更要問的是說"},{"start":12135.07,"end":12137.07,"text":"到底我們現在釐清了沒因為已經過了"},{"start":12137.07,"end":12139.07,"text":"23天了"},{"start":12139.07,"end":12141.07,"text":"所以我們現在就是包含他的初步調查結果裡面"},{"start":12141.07,"end":12143.07,"text":"除了包含前面的原料"},{"start":12143.07,"end":12145.07,"text":"還有中間的製程"},{"start":12145.07,"end":12147.07,"text":"至少我在這邊我可以跟委員說"},{"start":12147.07,"end":12149.07,"text":"他的HACCP內部的各節點"},{"start":12149.07,"end":12151.07,"text":"控管中聯這邊的控管品質"},{"start":12151.07,"end":12153.07,"text":"有問題"},{"start":12153.07,"end":12155.07,"text":"所以如果說從去年食藥署"},{"start":12155.07,"end":12157.07,"text":"署長昨天開記者會講了"},{"start":12157.07,"end":12159.07,"text":"就是說從去年就已經"},{"start":12159.07,"end":12161.07,"text":"有中聯放寬了那我想請教一下"},{"start":12161.07,"end":12163.07,"text":"到目前為止我們掌握從去年"},{"start":12163.07,"end":12165.07,"text":"他放寬之後到現在"},{"start":12165.07,"end":12167.07,"text":"總共生產了多少了有了沒"},{"start":12167.07,"end":12169.07,"text":"委員去年我們在"},{"start":12169.07,"end":12171.07,"text":"專案這邊因為他就已經不是"},{"start":12171.07,"end":12173.07,"text":"去年四月到六月了喔"},{"start":12173.07,"end":12175.07,"text":"你今天的報告還是跟我們強調是所謂的"},{"start":12175.07,"end":12177.07,"text":"四月到六月但是"},{"start":12177.07,"end":12179.07,"text":"如果昨天衛福部都已經"},{"start":12179.07,"end":12181.07,"text":"開正式記者會講有可能"},{"start":12181.07,"end":12183.07,"text":"是去年中聯他就私自"},{"start":12183.07,"end":12185.07,"text":"放寬這樣的一個樂損率"},{"start":12185.07,"end":12187.07,"text":"那代表從去年"},{"start":12187.07,"end":12189.07,"text":"生產的油品有可能就有問題"},{"start":12189.07,"end":12191.07,"text":"只是沒有被稽查出來那我們"},{"start":12191.07,"end":12193.07,"text":"要問的是"},{"start":12192.59,"end":12194.59,"text":"去年到現在"},{"start":12194.46,"end":12196.46,"text":"中聯總共生產了多少油"},{"start":12196.46,"end":12198.46,"text":"多少批號現在有沒有掌握"},{"start":12198.46,"end":12200.46,"text":"我要再給你喔不過我先"},{"start":12200.46,"end":12202.46,"text":"跟委員報告就是說第一去年"},{"start":12202.46,"end":12204.46,"text":"我們這樣我們在專案這邊"},{"start":12204.46,"end":12206.46,"text":"台中市衛生局去年有去對中聯"},{"start":12206.46,"end":12208.46,"text":"做檢驗現在有沒有掌握"},{"start":12208.46,"end":12210.46,"text":"對容我報告我們四月到六月份"},{"start":12210.46,"end":12212.46,"text":"我們目前檢驗到"},{"start":12212.46,"end":12214.46,"text":"就除了他現有的那七批"},{"start":12214.46,"end":12216.46,"text":"有問題的我們不讓他上架而且要求"},{"start":12216.46,"end":12218.46,"text":"要繼續要銷毀之外另外的"},{"start":12218.46,"end":12220.46,"text":"十九批我們現在驗起來是合格"},{"start":12220.46,"end":12222.46,"text":"今年一月到三月我們能掌握到"},{"start":12222.46,"end":12224.46,"text":"採樣到的目前一月到三月中聯"},{"start":12224.46,"end":12226.46,"text":"這邊的油出來是合格的"},{"start":12226.46,"end":12228.46,"text":"幾批"},{"start":12227.74,"end":12229.74,"text":"中聯現在有三十批"},{"start":12229.74,"end":12231.74,"text":"那去年從去年放寬到現在"},{"start":12231.74,"end":12233.74,"text":"他到底總共生產幾批我這樣講"},{"start":12233.74,"end":12235.74,"text":"他所謂的這個放寬他就算"},{"start":12235.74,"end":12237.74,"text":"他放寬他後續在學CCP裡面"},{"start":12237.74,"end":12239.74,"text":"他的製程就應該"},{"start":12239.74,"end":12241.74,"text":"真的沒有辦法我覺得"},{"start":12241.74,"end":12243.74,"text":"國人這樣沒有辦法接受為什麼"},{"start":12243.74,"end":12245.74,"text":"來部長今天早上"},{"start":12245.74,"end":12247.74,"text":"我們有看到另外一個新聞是說"},{"start":12247.74,"end":12249.74,"text":"中聯的廠長他又被"},{"start":12249.74,"end":12251.74,"text":"羈押因為他可能涉嫌"},{"start":12251.74,"end":12253.74,"text":"有隱匿證據或者是有"},{"start":12253.74,"end":12255.74,"text":"串供的一個嫌疑所以說被檢調求處"},{"start":12255.74,"end":12257.74,"text":"現在應該是羈押中了因為剛有新聞出來"},{"start":12257.74,"end":12259.74,"text":"好我想要確認一下"},{"start":12259.74,"end":12261.74,"text":"從事發六月三十號到現在"},{"start":12261.74,"end":12263.74,"text":"二十三天"},{"start":12263.74,"end":12265.74,"text":"過去了才羈押"},{"start":12265.74,"end":12267.74,"text":"這樣的一個廠長我們之前其實上禮拜"},{"start":12267.74,"end":12269.74,"text":"我在司法法之前我會有跟你質詢過我想"},{"start":12269.74,"end":12271.74,"text":"是說會不會有串供之餘"},{"start":12271.74,"end":12273.74,"text":"而且到底是"},{"start":12273.74,"end":12275.74,"text":"經營人造假還是"},{"start":12275.74,"end":12277.74,"text":"經手人造假還是上下"},{"start":12277.74,"end":12279.74,"text":"交響賊都有造假的狀況"},{"start":12279.74,"end":12281.74,"text":"那今天"},{"start":12281.74,"end":12283.74,"text":"這一個廠長的生涯那有沒有"},{"start":12283.74,"end":12285.74,"text":"其他人的生涯不知道但我現在想"},{"start":12285.74,"end":12287.74,"text":"要問的更明確的地方是"},{"start":12287.74,"end":12289.74,"text":"那到底我們有沒有掌握"},{"start":12289.74,"end":12291.74,"text":"從去年中聯"},{"start":12291.74,"end":12293.74,"text":"放寬所謂的熱損率"},{"start":12293.74,"end":12295.74,"text":"之後到現在他總共"},{"start":12295.74,"end":12297.74,"text":"生產了多少批以及相關的"},{"start":12297.74,"end":12299.74,"text":"這一些資料有沒有完整的釐清"},{"start":12300.52,"end":12302.52,"text":"我想這個是一個"},{"start":12302.52,"end":12304.52,"text":"偵查的一個案件"},{"start":12304.52,"end":12306.52,"text":"那我想各界的一些"},{"start":12306.52,"end":12308.52,"text":"的聲音還有委員關心的"},{"start":12308.52,"end":12310.52,"text":"這個問題以及我們又從"},{"start":12310.52,"end":12312.52,"text":"食藥署還有一些的我想"},{"start":12312.52,"end":12314.52,"text":"檢察機關都會詳細的"},{"start":12314.52,"end":12316.52,"text":"來瞭解"},{"start":12316.52,"end":12318.52,"text":"我現在針對個案的方法我只想要"},{"start":12318.52,"end":12320.52,"text":"釐清一件事因為這是國人大家有關心"},{"start":12320.52,"end":12322.52,"text":"這不是只是四月到六月"},{"start":12322.52,"end":12324.52,"text":"嘛因為我們自來物"},{"start":12324.52,"end":12326.52,"text":"不會憑空出來所以我們"},{"start":12326.52,"end":12328.52,"text":"現在抽絲剝繭"},{"start":12328.52,"end":12330.52,"text":"一層一層現在衛福部"},{"start":12330.52,"end":12332.52,"text":"告訴我們從去年有可能"},{"start":12332.52,"end":12334.52,"text":"他源頭放寬了熱損率"},{"start":12334.52,"end":12336.52,"text":"造成說他的自來物"},{"start":12336.52,"end":12338.52,"text":"的情況上升"},{"start":12338.52,"end":12340.52,"text":"那如果說真的是這樣的話"},{"start":12340.52,"end":12342.52,"text":"那有可能從去年生產的"},{"start":12342.52,"end":12344.52,"text":"有品就有問題那如果說"},{"start":12344.52,"end":12346.52,"text":"從去年生產有品就有問題的話"},{"start":12346.52,"end":12348.52,"text":"依照食品相關法規"},{"start":12348.52,"end":12350.52,"text":"其實有兩個部分第一"},{"start":12350.52,"end":12352.52,"text":"食品加工工廠"},{"start":12352.52,"end":12354.52,"text":"他都有義務要保留"},{"start":12354.52,"end":12356.52,"text":"所有的成品直到"},{"start":12356.52,"end":12358.52,"text":"他的有效期限結束"},{"start":12358.52,"end":12360.52,"text":"所以換言之中聯或者是說"},{"start":12360.52,"end":12362.52,"text":"他下面的泰山福壽"},{"start":12362.52,"end":12364.52,"text":"應該都要有這些存品"},{"start":12364.52,"end":12366.52,"text":"那我們有沒有把這些存品全部都扣押起來"},{"start":12366.52,"end":12368.52,"text":"這個我沒辦法跟你講"},{"start":12368.52,"end":12370.52,"text":"這個我想檢察官"},{"start":12370.52,"end":12372.52,"text":"對這個案件會向上受援"},{"start":12372.52,"end":12374.52,"text":"那外界有質疑就是說"},{"start":12374.52,"end":12376.52,"text":"這個四月以前是不是有那我想檢察官"},{"start":12376.52,"end":12378.52,"text":"都會我相信檢察官都會一併的"},{"start":12378.52,"end":12380.52,"text":"了解調查那這部分"},{"start":12380.52,"end":12382.52,"text":"所以到現在我們也沒有辦法掌握說"},{"start":12382.52,"end":12384.52,"text":"到底他查的是四月到六月"},{"start":12384.52,"end":12386.52,"text":"那現在委員報告我沒辦法去"},{"start":12386.52,"end":12388.52,"text":"去過問這個案件"},{"start":12388.52,"end":12390.52,"text":"那我再請教一下食藥署"},{"start":12390.52,"end":12392.52,"text":"衛福部"},{"start":12392.52,"end":12394.52,"text":"我們今天食藥署副署長有來吧"},{"start":12395.83,"end":12397.83,"text":"來"},{"start":12397.03,"end":12399.03,"text":"食藥署副署長嗎"},{"start":12399.03,"end":12401.03,"text":"我想請教一下"},{"start":12400.64,"end":12402.64,"text":"昨天署長已經有開這個記者會"},{"start":12402.64,"end":12404.64,"text":"也講說"},{"start":12404.64,"end":12406.64,"text":"熱損率的一個部分"},{"start":12406.64,"end":12408.64,"text":"那我現在只想問的是"},{"start":12408.64,"end":12410.64,"text":"從熱損率去年我先確認一下"},{"start":12410.64,"end":12412.64,"text":"我們相關法規因為我跟地方政府也求證過"},{"start":12412.64,"end":12414.64,"text":"相關法規是"},{"start":12414.64,"end":12416.64,"text":"如果食品工廠的成品他應該要"},{"start":12416.64,"end":12418.64,"text":"保留存樣直到"},{"start":12418.64,"end":12420.64,"text":"他保留到有效期限"},{"start":12420.64,"end":12422.64,"text":"所以換言之一般的沙拉油"},{"start":12422.64,"end":12424.64,"text":"他的有效期限是兩年左右"},{"start":12424.64,"end":12426.64,"text":"所以我們現在應該是可以"},{"start":12426.64,"end":12428.64,"text":"追溯到這個"},{"start":12428.64,"end":12430.64,"text":"食藥署長他可能會有兩年"},{"start":12430.64,"end":12432.64,"text":"這兩年中間的這個製程的一個成品"},{"start":12432.64,"end":12434.64,"text":"是不是"},{"start":12434.64,"end":12436.64,"text":"那現在這一些成品有多少"},{"start":12435.93,"end":12437.93,"text":"是跟委員報告的部分"},{"start":12437.93,"end":12439.93,"text":"那就是有關於流樣的部分"},{"start":12439.93,"end":12441.93,"text":"那是依法其實廠裡頭都必須要"},{"start":12441.93,"end":12443.93,"text":"去流樣的"},{"start":12443.93,"end":12445.93,"text":"那至於他生產的相關部分"},{"start":12445.93,"end":12447.93,"text":"在我們的負追星已經有流樣"},{"start":12447.93,"end":12449.93,"text":"所以我現在想要問的是你昨天"},{"start":12449.93,"end":12451.93,"text":"你們開記者會"},{"start":12452.5,"end":12454.5,"text":"我今天沒有任何黨派之分"},{"start":12454.5,"end":12456.5,"text":"純粹是為了國人因為每一個人"},{"start":12456.5,"end":12458.5,"text":"都可能吃到如果說你今天只有告訴我"},{"start":12458.5,"end":12460.5,"text":"四月到六月你今天報告到還是"},{"start":12460.5,"end":12462.5,"text":"只有四月到六月但是"},{"start":12462.5,"end":12464.5,"text":"你們昨天的記者會講是說可能"},{"start":12464.5,"end":12466.5,"text":"去年年中"},{"start":12466.5,"end":12468.5,"text":"中聯就已經放寬他的標準"},{"start":12468.5,"end":12470.5,"text":"那換言之從去年年中的"},{"start":12470.5,"end":12472.5,"text":"生產油可能都有問題"},{"start":12472.65,"end":12474.65,"text":"那現在我們要問的是"},{"start":12474.65,"end":12476.65,"text":"從去年年中到現在"},{"start":12476.65,"end":12478.65,"text":"到底生產了幾批你只要告訴我"},{"start":12478.65,"end":12480.65,"text":"現在有沒有掌握從去年到現在"},{"start":12480.65,"end":12482.65,"text":"生產了幾批就好"},{"start":12483.77,"end":12485.77,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":12488.31,"end":12490.31,"text":"市長"},{"start":12489.86,"end":12491.86,"text":"我覺得這有點離譜喔"},{"start":12492.1,"end":12494.1,"text":"市長"},{"start":12522.1,"end":12524.1,"text":"你現在問題來兩個部分"},{"start":12525.36,"end":12527.36,"text":"部長告訴我們說中聯他有"},{"start":12527.36,"end":12529.36,"text":"這相關造假狀況"},{"start":12529.36,"end":12531.36,"text":"對不對所以說你也才把相關"},{"start":12531.36,"end":12533.36,"text":"數據都送減掉另外一個部分"},{"start":12533.36,"end":12535.36,"text":"就是說你如果說已經確認"},{"start":12535.36,"end":12537.36,"text":"這個公司他已經很惡劣"},{"start":12537.36,"end":12539.36,"text":"從去年就已經有造假狀況"},{"start":12539.36,"end":12541.36,"text":"並且他擅自放寬"},{"start":12541.36,"end":12543.36,"text":"誰給他全力讓他擅自放寬這樣的一個"},{"start":12543.36,"end":12545.36,"text":"一個熱水率第一個部分造假的"},{"start":12545.36,"end":12547.36,"text":"是不是有造假造假的情形"},{"start":12547.36,"end":12549.36,"text":"我們現在所以你現在都還沒有去"},{"start":12549.36,"end":12551.36,"text":"好那如果說你現在都還不知道"},{"start":12551.36,"end":12553.36,"text":"從去年到現在到底有幾批的話"},{"start":12553.36,"end":12555.36,"text":"那我是不是更合理的懷疑你"},{"start":12555.36,"end":12557.36,"text":"根本沒有去保存或是說扣押"},{"start":12557.36,"end":12559.36,"text":"他的那些樣品"},{"start":12559.36,"end":12561.36,"text":"會不會那些樣品早要被銷毀了"},{"start":12561.36,"end":12563.36,"text":"委員他剛剛你剛剛提到"},{"start":12563.36,"end":12565.36,"text":"依照法律他們本來就要留樣"},{"start":12565.36,"end":12567.36,"text":"是他們應該要留樣"},{"start":12567.36,"end":12569.36,"text":"但我現在要問就是因為他們應該要留樣"},{"start":12569.36,"end":12571.36,"text":"所以我現在才要問你是說我們去"},{"start":12571.36,"end":12573.36,"text":"稽查到底有沒有去掌握他現在留樣"},{"start":12573.36,"end":12575.36,"text":"的那些樣品有幾批"},{"start":12575.36,"end":12577.36,"text":"我們這一次因為這樣子說"},{"start":12577.36,"end":12579.36,"text":"委員這一次他們也還沒有辦法告訴國人"},{"start":12579.36,"end":12581.36,"text":"答案委員他們可以提供留樣給我們"},{"start":12581.36,"end":12583.36,"text":"但是我們這一次像我剛剛說前面"},{"start":12583.36,"end":12585.36,"text":"我們現在驗出來合格的19批"},{"start":12585.36,"end":12587.36,"text":"我們都是從其他的廠商的留樣"},{"start":12587.36,"end":12589.36,"text":"因為我們認為中聯"},{"start":12589.36,"end":12591.36,"text":"這時候我們也對他們不信任"},{"start":12591.36,"end":12593.36,"text":"這就是你完全輕忽這也是為什麼我今天"},{"start":12593.36,"end":12595.36,"text":"完全不想要再講說你上個禮拜"},{"start":12595.36,"end":12597.36,"text":"還講到其他的那種什麼"},{"start":12597.36,"end":12599.36,"text":"雞排致癌物等等的我不想再提"},{"start":12599.36,"end":12601.36,"text":"那些事情是因為我認為"},{"start":12601.36,"end":12603.36,"text":"我們現在要就事論事"},{"start":12603.36,"end":12605.36,"text":"來去抽絲剝繭找出問題的原因"},{"start":12605.36,"end":12607.36,"text":"而如果說"},{"start":12607.36,"end":12609.36,"text":"你現在還focus在所謂的"},{"start":12609.36,"end":12611.36,"text":"4月到6月我覺得你是輕忽了"},{"start":12611.36,"end":12613.36,"text":"這一次的一個食安問題你也輕忽了"},{"start":12613.36,"end":12615.36,"text":"國人對於健康的重視"},{"start":12615.36,"end":12617.36,"text":"因為現在這批的問題"},{"start":12617.36,"end":12619.36,"text":"如果說你現在了解掌握的話"},{"start":12619.36,"end":12621.36,"text":"就發覺是說絕對不是今天"},{"start":12621.36,"end":12623.36,"text":"23天過去了還有你們"},{"start":12623.36,"end":12625.36,"text":"報告出來講的4月到6月"},{"start":12625.36,"end":12627.36,"text":"而已他可能是從去年"},{"start":12627.36,"end":12629.36,"text":"就已經開始而現在"},{"start":12629.36,"end":12631.36,"text":"如果食藥署23天過去都"},{"start":12631.36,"end":12633.36,"text":"還沒有去掌握他到底有多少批"},{"start":12633.36,"end":12635.36,"text":"多少的狀況"},{"start":12635.36,"end":12637.36,"text":"他可能不合格率更高"},{"start":12637.36,"end":12639.36,"text":"他可能從去年就已經開始生產這樣的油"},{"start":12639.36,"end":12641.36,"text":"可能用造假的方式"},{"start":12641.36,"end":12643.36,"text":"所以說這樣的方式"},{"start":12645.57,"end":12647.57,"text":"地方署管機關去年去驗"},{"start":12647.57,"end":12649.57,"text":"給我們正確給我們合格報告"},{"start":12649.57,"end":12651.57,"text":"我現在要跟你講的是"},{"start":12651.57,"end":12653.57,"text":"找出問題的原因"},{"start":12653.57,"end":12655.57,"text":"現在的問題是在於是說"},{"start":12655.57,"end":12657.57,"text":"我們要一起找出正確的原因"},{"start":12657.57,"end":12659.57,"text":"你不要在那邊沒事"},{"start":12660.15,"end":12662.15,"text":"我覺得我最難過的地方就是每一次"},{"start":12662.15,"end":12664.15,"text":"我們在這邊希望能夠"},{"start":12664.15,"end":12666.15,"text":"找出事實的真相"},{"start":12666.15,"end":12668.15,"text":"而你們都沒有辦法提供"},{"start":12668.15,"end":12670.15,"text":"23天已經過去了"},{"start":12670.15,"end":12672.15,"text":"23天已經過去了"},{"start":12672.15,"end":12674.15,"text":"把完整的報告做說明"},{"start":12674.15,"end":12676.15,"text":"如果23天已經過去了我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":12676.15,"end":12678.15,"text":"衛環委員會都已經排了那麼多"},{"start":12678.15,"end":12680.15,"text":"專案報告結果你們都還沒有"},{"start":12680.15,"end":12682.15,"text":"連問一個最基本的"},{"start":12682.15,"end":12684.15,"text":"從去年到現在到底有幾批"},{"start":12684.15,"end":12686.15,"text":"去年到現在到底有幾批"},{"start":12686.15,"end":12688.15,"text":"去年到底生產了多少量"},{"start":12688.15,"end":12690.15,"text":"去年到現在到底有多少量"},{"start":12690.15,"end":12692.15,"text":"被國人吃下肚"},{"start":12692.15,"end":12694.15,"text":"都還沒有辦法告訴國人的話"},{"start":12694.15,"end":12696.15,"text":"那我真的沒有辦法了解"},{"start":12696.15,"end":12698.15,"text":"我真的沒有辦法了解"},{"start":12699.77,"end":12701.77,"text":"你們這樣的一個態度"},{"start":12701.77,"end":12703.77,"text":"到底是什麼樣"},{"start":12704.22,"end":12706.22,"text":"但是我要再強調我們的專案"},{"start":12706.22,"end":12708.22,"text":"而且台中市政府本來就有在去年"},{"start":12708.22,"end":12710.22,"text":"做了相關的檢查"},{"start":12710.94,"end":12712.94,"text":"去年放寬"},{"start":12712.94,"end":12714.94,"text":"能夠讓他自行放寬的"},{"start":12714.94,"end":12716.94,"text":"熱損率這已經是一個"},{"start":12716.94,"end":12718.94,"text":"很嚴重的疏失"},{"start":12718.94,"end":12720.94,"text":"而這樣的一個疏失"},{"start":12720.94,"end":12722.94,"text":"市長"},{"start":12722.94,"end":12724.94,"text":"而這樣的一個疏失如果說到現在"},{"start":12724.94,"end":12726.94,"text":"23天了都還沒有辦法"},{"start":12726.94,"end":12728.94,"text":"找到這個原因的話"},{"start":12728.94,"end":12730.94,"text":"沒有辦法找到到底有"},{"start":12730.94,"end":12732.94,"text":"多少的"},{"start":12732.94,"end":12734.94,"text":"流傳"},{"start":12736.61,"end":12738.61,"text":"發言等他發言完之後"},{"start":12738.61,"end":12740.61,"text":"再請市長您回答好嗎"},{"start":12743,"end":12745,"text":"部長市長"},{"start":12745,"end":12747,"text":"我與眾新常講一下"},{"start":12746.44,"end":12748.44,"text":"今天如果說已經23天了"},{"start":12748.44,"end":12750.44,"text":"用一樣的標準"},{"start":12751.05,"end":12753.05,"text":"我們已經知道說這個中聯非常可惡"},{"start":12753.05,"end":12755.05,"text":"你到現在都還沒有"},{"start":12755.05,"end":12757.05,"text":"辦法去保存證據"},{"start":12757.05,"end":12759.05,"text":"都還沒有辦法去釐清說"},{"start":12759.05,"end":12761.05,"text":"從去年到現在的狀況"},{"start":12761.05,"end":12763.05,"text":"你到現在我連最基本的問題"},{"start":12763.05,"end":12765.05,"text":"都問了你都沒有辦法回答"},{"start":12765.05,"end":12767.05,"text":"那你這樣跟我講說要保存證據嗎"},{"start":12767.05,"end":12769.05,"text":"我就問你最簡單的問題"},{"start":12769.05,"end":12771.05,"text":"從去年到現在"},{"start":12771.05,"end":12773.05,"text":"到底生產了幾批有幾批"},{"start":12773.05,"end":12775.05,"text":"這個我再調給委員"},{"start":12774.68,"end":12776.68,"text":"好那我想說"},{"start":12776.68,"end":12778.68,"text":"市長要提供從去年到今年"},{"start":12778.68,"end":12780.68,"text":"我們可以把批次都交給委員"},{"start":12780.68,"end":12782.68,"text":"應該是到六月吧"},{"start":12782.68,"end":12784.68,"text":"六月所有的批次"},{"start":12784.68,"end":12786.68,"text":"的報告都提供給我們"},{"start":12786.68,"end":12788.68,"text":"這個"},{"start":12788.68,"end":12790.68,"text":"就交給司法法法制委員會"},{"start":12790.68,"end":12792.68,"text":"然後我們就會提供給所有委員來參考"},{"start":12792.68,"end":12794.68,"text":"好謝謝宏偉委員"},{"start":12794.68,"end":12796.68,"text":"好先請回座"},{"start":12796.55,"end":12798.55,"text":"好"},{"start":12797.27,"end":12799.27,"text":"接下來我們先處理會議時間"},{"start":12799.27,"end":12801.27,"text":"上午會議時間"},{"start":12801.27,"end":12803.27,"text":"繼續進行到所有登記發言委員"},{"start":12803.27,"end":12805.27,"text":"巡達結束為止"},{"start":12805.27,"end":12807.27,"text":"好那接下來是秋蕙如委員"},{"start":12807.27,"end":12809.27,"text":"秋蕙如委員"},{"start":12809.27,"end":12811.27,"text":"秋蕙如委員不在蔡春雄委員"},{"start":12811.27,"end":12813.27,"text":"蔡春雄委員蔡春雄委員不在"},{"start":12813.27,"end":12815.27,"text":"接下來我們有請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":12825.87,"end":12827.87,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":12827.87,"end":12829.87,"text":"我今天的質詢有兩個主題"},{"start":12829.87,"end":12831.87,"text":"對象是一個是監察院"},{"start":12831.87,"end":12833.87,"text":"第二個是在食安的部分"},{"start":12833.87,"end":12835.87,"text":"會請"},{"start":12835.87,"end":12837.87,"text":"衛福部的市長"},{"start":12837.87,"end":12839.87,"text":"然後還有食藥署的副署長就先請準備一下"},{"start":12839.87,"end":12841.87,"text":"那今天呢"},{"start":12841.87,"end":12843.87,"text":"針對監察院"},{"start":12843.87,"end":12845.87,"text":"的秘書長他不出席司法法制委員會"},{"start":12845.87,"end":12847.87,"text":"的這個公職人員利益回避"},{"start":12847.87,"end":12849.87,"text":"衝突的這個"},{"start":12849.87,"end":12851.87,"text":"我有意見要表示"},{"start":12851.87,"end":12853.87,"text":"就是立法院跟監察院"},{"start":12853.87,"end":12855.87,"text":"監察院雖然是一個平行的"},{"start":12855.87,"end":12857.87,"text":"五院的機構"},{"start":12857.87,"end":12859.87,"text":"但司法院在憲法法庭"},{"start":12859.87,"end":12861.87,"text":"上面已經有指出"},{"start":12861.87,"end":12863.87,"text":"憲政機關的院長他是"},{"start":12863.87,"end":12865.87,"text":"可基於互相尊重的原則"},{"start":12865.87,"end":12867.87,"text":"不受邀備詢"},{"start":12867.87,"end":12869.87,"text":"但是所屬的行政"},{"start":12869.87,"end":12871.87,"text":"性質的職務人員原則上"},{"start":12871.87,"end":12873.87,"text":"應該不得拒絕"},{"start":12873.87,"end":12875.87,"text":"那這次監察院的"},{"start":12875.87,"end":12877.87,"text":"秘書長他拒絕"},{"start":12877.87,"end":12879.87,"text":"來出席司法法制委員會"},{"start":12879.87,"end":12881.87,"text":"的備詢"},{"start":12881.87,"end":12883.87,"text":"這次社會的輿論解讀"},{"start":12883.87,"end":12885.87,"text":"他是實質在藐視國會的"},{"start":12885.87,"end":12887.87,"text":"調查跟監督的權限"},{"start":12887.87,"end":12889.87,"text":"那會破壞到五院的"},{"start":12889.87,"end":12891.87,"text":"相互尊重的憲政慣例"},{"start":12891.87,"end":12893.87,"text":"那監察院這有責任"},{"start":12893.87,"end":12895.87,"text":"要向國人來說明他的決策過程"},{"start":12895.87,"end":12897.87,"text":"跟責任的歸屬"},{"start":12897.87,"end":12899.87,"text":"那透過這一次的質詢"},{"start":12899.87,"end":12901.87,"text":"要請監察院來提出"},{"start":12901.87,"end":12903.87,"text":"的書面的一個回應"},{"start":12903.87,"end":12905.87,"text":"就是關於拒絕出席備詢"},{"start":12905.87,"end":12907.87,"text":"他的決策過程跟他的政治責任"},{"start":12907.87,"end":12909.87,"text":"還有要去了解說"},{"start":12909.87,"end":12911.87,"text":"監察院是否他有"},{"start":12911.87,"end":12913.87,"text":"訂定內部的準則"},{"start":12913.87,"end":12915.87,"text":"規範在立法院各個委員會"},{"start":12915.87,"end":12917.87,"text":"要邀請他備詢時的"},{"start":12917.87,"end":12919.87,"text":"他的出席與否的標準"},{"start":12919.87,"end":12921.87,"text":"是什麼"},{"start":12921.87,"end":12923.87,"text":"那如果有這個的話"},{"start":12923.87,"end":12925.87,"text":"要請他提供完整的準則跟"},{"start":12925.87,"end":12927.87,"text":"過去適用案例的情形"},{"start":12927.87,"end":12929.87,"text":"那如果"},{"start":12929.87,"end":12931.87,"text":"監察院沒有這樣的一個"},{"start":12931.87,"end":12933.87,"text":"出席與否的標準的話"},{"start":12933.87,"end":12935.87,"text":"那要請監察院"},{"start":12935.87,"end":12937.87,"text":"就這次的案件"},{"start":12937.87,"end":12939.87,"text":"這次的拒絕出席"},{"start":12939.87,"end":12941.87,"text":"到底是由哪一個層級"},{"start":12941.87,"end":12943.87,"text":"透過哪一種程序"},{"start":12943.87,"end":12945.87,"text":"來去決定"},{"start":12945.87,"end":12947.87,"text":"那也請要去揭示相關的"},{"start":12947.87,"end":12949.87,"text":"會議紀錄跟他的書面決策文件"},{"start":12949.87,"end":12951.87,"text":"讓大眾來去知曉"},{"start":12951.87,"end":12953.87,"text":"好那第二個議題"},{"start":12953.87,"end":12955.87,"text":"我要來質詢的是"},{"start":12955.87,"end":12957.87,"text":"關於食安的問題"},{"start":12957.87,"end":12959.87,"text":"那有請衛福部的林"},{"start":12959.87,"end":12961.87,"text":"次長跟食藥署的"},{"start":12961.87,"end":12963.87,"text":"辭副署長"},{"start":12964.08,"end":12966.08,"text":"好請林次長還有辭副署長"},{"start":12966.08,"end":12968.08,"text":"委員好"},{"start":12968.08,"end":12970.08,"text":"好署長次長好"},{"start":12970.08,"end":12972.08,"text":"那這次的三級的"},{"start":12972.08,"end":12974.08,"text":"食安法"},{"start":12974.08,"end":12976.08,"text":"他有規定的三級的"},{"start":12976.08,"end":12978.08,"text":"食安的管理機制嘛"},{"start":12978.08,"end":12980.08,"text":"就分別是自主的檢驗"},{"start":12980.08,"end":12982.08,"text":"還有說第三方的"},{"start":12982.08,"end":12984.08,"text":"獨立的這個檢測還有第三個"},{"start":12984.08,"end":12986.08,"text":"是在政府的監測那政府的"},{"start":12986.08,"end":12988.08,"text":"監測這一部分"},{"start":12988.08,"end":12990.08,"text":"他有涉及到中央地方"},{"start":12990.08,"end":12992.08,"text":"我們一直到現在都還看到的是"},{"start":12992.08,"end":12994.08,"text":"中央跟地方在互推這個責任"},{"start":12994.08,"end":12996.08,"text":"那因為這個部分"},{"start":12996.08,"end":12998.08,"text":"我不管是發現到什麼樣的問題"},{"start":12998.08,"end":13000.08,"text":"都可以知道是說中央在對於"},{"start":13000.08,"end":13002.08,"text":"地方的22縣市的這個監督"},{"start":13002.08,"end":13004.08,"text":"這部分呢如果說真的地方有錯的話"},{"start":13004.08,"end":13006.08,"text":"這麼監督責任是不可迴避的嘛"},{"start":13006.08,"end":13008.08,"text":"是吧我們現在就在承擔這些"},{"start":13008.08,"end":13010.08,"text":"責任嗎對對對那我們現在就想說"},{"start":13010.08,"end":13012.08,"text":"因為我前幾天呢就食藥署副署長"},{"start":13012.08,"end":13014.08,"text":"這邊來做一個預算"},{"start":13014.08,"end":13016.08,"text":"來說明的時候我就問到這個事情"},{"start":13016.08,"end":13018.08,"text":"就是說關於"},{"start":13018.08,"end":13020.08,"text":"在中央部中央的"},{"start":13020.08,"end":13022.08,"text":"食藥署這邊他本身有設置的是說"},{"start":13022.08,"end":13024.08,"text":"有食品組嘛那也有所謂監管中心"},{"start":13024.08,"end":13026.08,"text":"對不對那是不是可以就"},{"start":13026.08,"end":13028.08,"text":"現在的食品"},{"start":13028.08,"end":13030.08,"text":"的"},{"start":13030.08,"end":13032.08,"text":"檢測機核跟監督這部分做一個"},{"start":13032.08,"end":13034.08,"text":"說明因為發現到說"},{"start":13034.08,"end":13036.08,"text":"這個部分各自有做這個事情"},{"start":13036.08,"end":13038.08,"text":"可是到底地方有沒有好好去做"},{"start":13038.08,"end":13040.08,"text":"這邊是不是要請回答"},{"start":13040.08,"end":13042.08,"text":"在這個檢測跟機核跟監督"},{"start":13042.08,"end":13044.08,"text":"機制在食藥署是怎麼進行的"},{"start":13044.08,"end":13046.08,"text":"委員你講的是每一種"},{"start":13046.08,"end":13048.08,"text":"還是特殊對我現在必須說因為"},{"start":13048.08,"end":13050.08,"text":"不自助的漏洞特別像這次我聽到食安署"},{"start":13050.08,"end":13052.08,"text":"食藥署這邊有提到說"},{"start":13052.08,"end":13054.08,"text":"他們有所謂的食品"},{"start":13054.08,"end":13056.08,"text":"機核專案嘛對不對"},{"start":13056.08,"end":13058.08,"text":"所以我剛剛問就是其實我先簡單講就是說"},{"start":13058.08,"end":13060.08,"text":"本來在食安法地方政府"},{"start":13060.08,"end":13062.08,"text":"他就有例行的查核"},{"start":13062.08,"end":13064.08,"text":"然後針對某些我們固定在針對"},{"start":13064.08,"end":13066.08,"text":"某些時間或某些食品"},{"start":13066.08,"end":13068.08,"text":"我們會再有專案請地方政府"},{"start":13068.08,"end":13070.08,"text":"再去做查核所以委員要詢問"},{"start":13070.08,"end":13072.08,"text":"的是我是說這個部分"},{"start":13072.08,"end":13074.08,"text":"他查核之後但是到底"},{"start":13074.08,"end":13076.08,"text":"這個所謂區管中心"},{"start":13076.08,"end":13078.08,"text":"對於地方政府他"},{"start":13078.08,"end":13080.08,"text":"核實有沒有做到然後包括是"},{"start":13080.08,"end":13082.08,"text":"有沒有包括是熱區熱巷的"},{"start":13082.08,"end":13084.08,"text":"熱就所謂的在"},{"start":13084.08,"end":13086.08,"text":"特別的這次這樣要有"},{"start":13086.08,"end":13088.08,"text":"食用油的這部分還有包括"},{"start":13088.08,"end":13090.08,"text":"很多巷的部分我是希望說透過"},{"start":13090.08,"end":13092.08,"text":"這樣的一個機制像這次"},{"start":13092.08,"end":13094.08,"text":"透過這個機會讓請食藥署去跟大家"},{"start":13094.08,"end":13096.08,"text":"說明說其實可能食藥署"},{"start":13096.08,"end":13098.08,"text":"這邊其實他本身對我機核計畫"},{"start":13098.08,"end":13100.08,"text":"可是這個機核計畫當中到底"},{"start":13100.08,"end":13102.08,"text":"有沒有比較廣泛的然後"},{"start":13102.08,"end":13104.08,"text":"再去針對地方的機核"},{"start":13104.08,"end":13106.08,"text":"的狀況他有做個"},{"start":13106.08,"end":13108.08,"text":"報告說但是這部分是我們可以"},{"start":13108.08,"end":13110.08,"text":"透過一個像視覺化的一種食安"},{"start":13110.08,"end":13112.08,"text":"地圖的一個檢測"},{"start":13112.08,"end":13114.08,"text":"的機制讓大家知道說其實"},{"start":13114.08,"end":13116.08,"text":"中央的部分也負責到"},{"start":13116.08,"end":13118.08,"text":"做他該做的事情那地方"},{"start":13118.08,"end":13120.08,"text":"如果沒有做到或是可以做過甚至做"},{"start":13120.08,"end":13122.08,"text":"各個地方的一個"},{"start":13122.08,"end":13124.08,"text":"縣市上面的政府他們對食安"},{"start":13124.08,"end":13126.08,"text":"的檢測的項目上面或是結果"},{"start":13126.08,"end":13128.08,"text":"的部分到底抽檢怎樣等等的是不是"},{"start":13128.08,"end":13130.08,"text":"有更多的知道我想說透過"},{"start":13130.08,"end":13132.08,"text":"這個機制因為總是要不破網"},{"start":13132.08,"end":13134.08,"text":"我等一下我細節我讓副署長補充"},{"start":13134.08,"end":13136.08,"text":"不過我先先說明一下就是說"},{"start":13136.08,"end":13138.08,"text":"台灣我想我們的食品業者"},{"start":13138.08,"end":13140.08,"text":"有大中小型非常多"},{"start":13140.08,"end":13142.08,"text":"那再來的話有一些食品比方說"},{"start":13142.08,"end":13144.08,"text":"像油紙廠像這一次大型的油紙廠"},{"start":13144.08,"end":13146.08,"text":"他有在台中他有在"},{"start":13146.08,"end":13148.08,"text":"高雄他有在台南那所以"},{"start":13148.08,"end":13150.08,"text":"如果用每個縣市他分別"},{"start":13150.08,"end":13152.08,"text":"做了多少次檢驗他第一個很多縣市"},{"start":13152.08,"end":13154.08,"text":"他做的是後市場檢驗那如果是"},{"start":13154.08,"end":13156.08,"text":"原來的油廠本來就有相關"},{"start":13156.08,"end":13158.08,"text":"我們這邊對於每個油廠"},{"start":13158.08,"end":13160.08,"text":"他本來在食安法裡面這些"},{"start":13160.08,"end":13162.08,"text":"這些油廠他自己要有自主檢驗"},{"start":13162.08,"end":13164.08,"text":"另外地方政府就要去做相關的"},{"start":13164.08,"end":13166.08,"text":"查驗那在這個這幾個例行"},{"start":13166.08,"end":13168.08,"text":"自己應該要做的檢驗之外"},{"start":13168.08,"end":13170.08,"text":"就是過去在111到114"},{"start":13170.08,"end":13172.08,"text":"年甚至到今年食藥署"},{"start":13172.08,"end":13174.08,"text":"另外還有針對油紙業的專案"},{"start":13174.08,"end":13176.08,"text":"那專案這邊就會把這些相關"},{"start":13176.08,"end":13178.08,"text":"必須去做的調查的內容細節"},{"start":13178.08,"end":13180.08,"text":"交給地方"},{"start":13180.08,"end":13182.08,"text":"主管機關去做採樣"},{"start":13182.08,"end":13184.08,"text":"送上來做檢查或者是請他們"},{"start":13184.08,"end":13186.08,"text":"去做檢查之後告訴我們他們的結果"},{"start":13186.08,"end":13188.08,"text":"我先補充這個部分好讓大家請"},{"start":13188.08,"end":13190.08,"text":"食藥署做說明"},{"start":13190.08,"end":13192.08,"text":"委員好跟您補充一下"},{"start":13192.08,"end":13194.08,"text":"就像剛剛次長報告的除了地方本來"},{"start":13194.08,"end":13196.08,"text":"就有自行應該要去規劃他相關的"},{"start":13196.08,"end":13198.08,"text":"一些稽查的這個項目之外"},{"start":13198.08,"end":13200.08,"text":"食藥署的部分我們會依據"},{"start":13200.08,"end":13202.08,"text":"就是高風險的食品還有像是"},{"start":13202.08,"end":13204.08,"text":"過去於行比較關注的我們會針對"},{"start":13204.08,"end":13206.08,"text":"製造業餐飲業"},{"start":13206.08,"end":13208.08,"text":"還有販售業然後我們會規劃"},{"start":13208.08,"end":13210.08,"text":"一個整體性的稽查專案因為這是"},{"start":13210.08,"end":13212.08,"text":"涉及到跨縣市的部分"},{"start":13212.08,"end":13214.08,"text":"所以我們在這個"},{"start":13214.08,"end":13216.08,"text":"稽查專案裡頭我們就會規劃"},{"start":13216.08,"end":13218.08,"text":"就是各個縣市他應該在何什麼時候"},{"start":13218.08,"end":13220.08,"text":"去執行這個抽菸"},{"start":13220.08,"end":13222.08,"text":"那什麼時候要去把檢驗結果"},{"start":13222.08,"end":13224.08,"text":"回報那同時呢因為這個不見得"},{"start":13224.08,"end":13226.08,"text":"只有抽菸"},{"start":13225.64,"end":13227.64,"text":"檢驗的部分因為他還有可能還要看這個"},{"start":13227.64,"end":13229.64,"text":"GHP或者是這個"},{"start":13229.64,"end":13231.64,"text":"標示等等的部分那所以後續"},{"start":13231.64,"end":13233.64,"text":"如果有違反的這個食安法相關的"},{"start":13233.64,"end":13235.64,"text":"情況的話也會要求衛生局"},{"start":13235.64,"end":13237.64,"text":"就要依食安法的規定"},{"start":13237.64,"end":13239.64,"text":"依憲要去做一些處理然後也"},{"start":13239.64,"end":13241.64,"text":"要依憲來回報給我們食藥署"},{"start":13241.64,"end":13243.64,"text":"這個部分所以我們是都有掌握"},{"start":13243.64,"end":13245.64,"text":"相關的情況對那你上次是不是聽到"},{"start":13245.64,"end":13247.64,"text":"次長之前剛剛有說到是不是"},{"start":13247.64,"end":13249.64,"text":"到去年年底之前的在過去"},{"start":13249.64,"end":13251.64,"text":"的年度計畫當中這些"},{"start":13251.64,"end":13253.64,"text":"目前都沒有問題那這次的"},{"start":13253.64,"end":13255.64,"text":"情況是因為今年才設的方案"},{"start":13255.64,"end":13257.64,"text":"謝謝委員這邊詢問"},{"start":13257.64,"end":13259.64,"text":"我這邊調的資料裡面至少在這邊"},{"start":13259.64,"end":13261.64,"text":"去年的9月24"},{"start":13261.64,"end":13263.64,"text":"食藥署有一個專案要做食用油"},{"start":13263.64,"end":13265.64,"text":"管理會議的這個稽查專案我們"},{"start":13265.64,"end":13267.64,"text":"交給台中市衛生局各縣"},{"start":13267.64,"end":13269.64,"text":"市衛生局去查那台中市衛生局"},{"start":13269.64,"end":13271.64,"text":"這邊後來查核結果GHP合格"},{"start":13273.1,"end":13275.1,"text":"好那因為現在的部分就在於說"},{"start":13275.1,"end":13277.1,"text":"可能看起來每次都"},{"start":13277.1,"end":13279.1,"text":"行理如意啦那這個"},{"start":13279.1,"end":13281.1,"text":"部分我們看到好也是有出現到好像"},{"start":13281.1,"end":13283.1,"text":"食就包括說這次的巴西的"},{"start":13283.1,"end":13285.1,"text":"食用油的食用的"},{"start":13285.1,"end":13287.1,"text":"黃豆的這個進口這部分可能到"},{"start":13287.1,"end":13289.1,"text":"現在可能提前到去年都能都有"},{"start":13289.1,"end":13291.1,"text":"這些問題出現這部分我的意思說"},{"start":13291.1,"end":13293.1,"text":"你如果是不是也有"},{"start":13293.1,"end":13295.1,"text":"做這個檢測然後也是可以做出來"},{"start":13295.1,"end":13297.1,"text":"就算食安地圖的視覺化的部分"},{"start":13297.1,"end":13299.1,"text":"就是說各項各線"},{"start":13299.1,"end":13301.1,"text":"各各項的或各類的"},{"start":13301.1,"end":13303.1,"text":"這樣幾大類的這個食品的檢測部分"},{"start":13303.1,"end":13305.1,"text":"能夠做得更讓民眾知道"},{"start":13305.1,"end":13307.1,"text":"各個責任到底是怎樣不過現在"},{"start":13307.1,"end":13309.1,"text":"看起來是說到目前為止食藥"},{"start":13309.1,"end":13311.1,"text":"就是在食品食用油"},{"start":13311.1,"end":13313.1,"text":"的部分是去年都沒有問題"},{"start":13313.1,"end":13315.1,"text":"但是在這個是不是"},{"start":13315.1,"end":13317.1,"text":"都有包括像今年該做的部分"},{"start":13317.1,"end":13319.1,"text":"那還有說著高風險的"},{"start":13319.1,"end":13321.1,"text":"這樣的食品是不是都"},{"start":13321.1,"end":13323.1,"text":"每年的這樣的一個"},{"start":13323.1,"end":13325.1,"text":"做的檢測算專案管理會不一樣對不對"},{"start":13325.1,"end":13327.1,"text":"那是不是也有說把它變成說"},{"start":13327.1,"end":13329.1,"text":"例行的包括還包括他這次的這樣的"},{"start":13329.1,"end":13331.1,"text":"一個"},{"start":13330.74,"end":13332.74,"text":"該檢測的項目上面或是特殊的部分必須"},{"start":13332.74,"end":13334.74,"text":"看到有漏洞嘛"},{"start":13334.74,"end":13336.74,"text":"那這邊的話是不是我覺得"},{"start":13336.74,"end":13338.74,"text":"是應該讓全民民眾這邊不要再去"},{"start":13338.74,"end":13340.74,"text":"出現那種所謂互推皮球而且事實上"},{"start":13340.74,"end":13342.74,"text":"可以很清楚的知道說到底是"},{"start":13342.74,"end":13344.74,"text":"什麼樣的問題但是我是覺得說"},{"start":13344.74,"end":13346.74,"text":"監督的問題就是透過這一次的"},{"start":13346.74,"end":13348.74,"text":"大家立法院包括在這樣的"},{"start":13348.74,"end":13350.74,"text":"一個監督當中把這個機制"},{"start":13350.74,"end":13352.74,"text":"把它做補起來尤其是在讓民眾"},{"start":13352.74,"end":13354.74,"text":"可以更清楚的去了解我想這樣子的話"},{"start":13354.74,"end":13356.74,"text":"就是到底"},{"start":13356.74,"end":13358.74,"text":"責任誰處的問題就找"},{"start":13358.74,"end":13360.74,"text":"食藥署這邊把這個地方"},{"start":13360.74,"end":13362.74,"text":"就是該做的事情做好那因為我們現在"},{"start":13362.74,"end":13364.74,"text":"只能做是要求的是在對中央的"},{"start":13364.74,"end":13366.74,"text":"這個會服部嘛"},{"start":13366.74,"end":13368.74,"text":"我是希望說把這樣的意見呈現出來說"},{"start":13368.74,"end":13370.74,"text":"把這樣的食安的"},{"start":13370.74,"end":13372.74,"text":"檢測的地圖能夠更清楚的知道說"},{"start":13372.74,"end":13374.74,"text":"到底有多些哪些部分然後"},{"start":13374.74,"end":13376.74,"text":"整體的讓大家知道這有沒有"},{"start":13376.74,"end":13378.74,"text":"謝謝委員我謝謝委員強調就是說"},{"start":13378.74,"end":13380.74,"text":"其實在食安這件事情上中央跟地方"},{"start":13380.74,"end":13382.74,"text":"各自有責任也各自要合作"},{"start":13382.74,"end":13384.74,"text":"那至於說委員剛剛所提到"},{"start":13384.74,"end":13386.74,"text":"食安地圖或者是地方的檢驗我還是"},{"start":13386.74,"end":13388.74,"text":"要再補充一下就是不同的縣市"},{"start":13388.74,"end":13390.74,"text":"好像這次講油脂他可能有某些"},{"start":13390.74,"end":13392.74,"text":"縣市還有比較大型油脂廠"},{"start":13392.74,"end":13394.74,"text":"有些縣市是小型油脂廠那這個東西"},{"start":13394.74,"end":13396.74,"text":"你要把它放在同一個天平我想大概是"},{"start":13396.74,"end":13398.74,"text":"不太不太一樣但是我覺得"},{"start":13398.74,"end":13400.74,"text":"應該分界出它的重點性對然後我們"},{"start":13400.74,"end":13402.74,"text":"所以我們在其實應該是說"},{"start":13402.74,"end":13404.74,"text":"地方主管機關他基於他的"},{"start":13404.74,"end":13406.74,"text":"縣市的一些食品不論是前面的食品廠"},{"start":13406.74,"end":13408.74,"text":"或者是後市廠其實"},{"start":13408.74,"end":13410.74,"text":"他本來就要有例行的查驗"},{"start":13410.74,"end":13412.74,"text":"那當然我們也知道種類非常多所以我們尊重"},{"start":13412.74,"end":13414.74,"text":"地方主管機關他對於"},{"start":13414.74,"end":13416.74,"text":"他所轄縣市的各種食品的種類"},{"start":13416.74,"end":13418.74,"text":"他認為比較高風險的"},{"start":13418.74,"end":13420.74,"text":"他認為民眾比較關切的"},{"start":13420.74,"end":13422.74,"text":"他認為比較需要在這段時間比方說"},{"start":13422.74,"end":13424.74,"text":"某些某些這一個季節"},{"start":13424.74,"end":13426.74,"text":"某些季節有某些特定的食品"},{"start":13426.74,"end":13428.74,"text":"他去做相關的檢驗那中央這邊"},{"start":13428.74,"end":13430.74,"text":"其實第一個我們尊重地方他對於"},{"start":13430.74,"end":13432.74,"text":"他的食品還有食品廠的相關"},{"start":13432.74,"end":13434.74,"text":"的查驗的這個專業跟評估"},{"start":13434.74,"end":13436.74,"text":"我們這邊就是我剛剛跟您補充的"},{"start":13436.74,"end":13438.74,"text":"我們對於一些高風險或特定的食品"},{"start":13438.74,"end":13440.74,"text":"我們這邊會有一些專案請地方"},{"start":13440.74,"end":13442.74,"text":"政府再把這些我們全台灣"},{"start":13442.74,"end":13444.74,"text":"的這些專案我們請他們跑一輪"},{"start":13444.74,"end":13446.74,"text":"把這樣的這些資訊呈現那我們"},{"start":13446.74,"end":13448.74,"text":"在食藥署這邊其實每一次要做專案"},{"start":13448.74,"end":13450.74,"text":"的時候我們都會有先公佈有記者"},{"start":13450.74,"end":13452.74,"text":"我們會先有新聞稿說我們"},{"start":13452.74,"end":13454.74,"text":"接下來要啟動個什麼樣的專案"},{"start":13454.74,"end":13456.74,"text":"那再來在這個這個專案"},{"start":13456.74,"end":13458.74,"text":"之後也都會公佈所有的檢驗結果"},{"start":13458.74,"end":13460.74,"text":"我想就是像委員所提到的"},{"start":13460.74,"end":13462.74,"text":"中央跟地方一層一層"},{"start":13462.74,"end":13464.74,"text":"他針對地方的需求那我再補充"},{"start":13464.74,"end":13466.74,"text":"一下就是說過去其實地方"},{"start":13466.74,"end":13468.74,"text":"他們會因為特殊的狀況或因為"},{"start":13468.74,"end":13470.74,"text":"他的廠他們自己編列預算"},{"start":13470.74,"end":13472.74,"text":"自己醫院然後自己也會有登錄系統"},{"start":13472.74,"end":13474.74,"text":"那中央這邊事實上我們能夠"},{"start":13474.74,"end":13476.74,"text":"跟地方取得的資料就是我們專案"},{"start":13476.74,"end":13478.74,"text":"請他們做或者是比較特定的一些"},{"start":13478.74,"end":13480.74,"text":"檢查請他們把這個檢驗結果報上來"},{"start":13480.74,"end":13482.74,"text":"我想如果都"},{"start":13482.74,"end":13484.74,"text":"當你現在看起來變成是地方"},{"start":13484.74,"end":13486.74,"text":"看起來好像做了這個檢測的工作"},{"start":13486.74,"end":13488.74,"text":"你們因為積合的項目等等的"},{"start":13488.74,"end":13490.74,"text":"專案的需求都讓他們做"},{"start":13490.74,"end":13492.74,"text":"可是我在想說如果都還是靠到"},{"start":13492.74,"end":13494.74,"text":"地方的去做這邊我要強調"},{"start":13494.74,"end":13496.74,"text":"是說應該強調食藥署"},{"start":13496.74,"end":13498.74,"text":"在在監督這部分"},{"start":13498.74,"end":13500.74,"text":"的時候要把它再繼續再落實"},{"start":13500.74,"end":13502.74,"text":"尤其涉及到校園"},{"start":13502.74,"end":13504.74,"text":"食安的部分因為涉及到更多的學生"},{"start":13504.74,"end":13506.74,"text":"這邊部分我希望說能夠"},{"start":13506.74,"end":13508.74,"text":"這邊再去強調這次的食安事件過去"},{"start":13508.74,"end":13510.74,"text":"之後反正都一定會過去但是我是希望說"},{"start":13510.74,"end":13512.74,"text":"能夠就哪些項目上能好好去"},{"start":13512.74,"end":13514.74,"text":"做監測然後去強調的是"},{"start":13514.74,"end":13516.74,"text":"要把自己的機制把它強化到"},{"start":13516.74,"end":13518.74,"text":"不是說還是把責任"},{"start":13518.74,"end":13520.74,"text":"就是說那個責任還是要回報出來但是我想說"},{"start":13520.74,"end":13522.74,"text":"可以再去強調說各個重要"},{"start":13522.74,"end":13524.74,"text":"的事件以校園的"},{"start":13524.74,"end":13526.74,"text":"食安安全去做規劃"},{"start":13526.74,"end":13528.74,"text":"然後提出來就是說應該是在哪些項目"},{"start":13528.74,"end":13530.74,"text":"特別的做規劃就是做檢測"},{"start":13530.74,"end":13532.74,"text":"校園這一次我們也很謝謝"},{"start":13532.74,"end":13534.74,"text":"這個教育部他們很快就"},{"start":13534.74,"end":13536.74,"text":"從我們的相關的資料裡面去做"},{"start":13536.74,"end":13538.74,"text":"勾集那很快的動作去做處理"},{"start":13538.74,"end":13540.74,"text":"那也在跟委員說明就是說"},{"start":13540.74,"end":13542.74,"text":"也在跟委員說明就是說"},{"start":13542.74,"end":13544.74,"text":"所以其實我們這一次的食安法"},{"start":13544.74,"end":13546.74,"text":"修法的草案裡面我們也比較明定了"},{"start":13546.74,"end":13548.74,"text":"包含地方上他因"},{"start":13548.74,"end":13550.74,"text":"他有一定頻率特定的一些食品"},{"start":13550.74,"end":13552.74,"text":"或者特定的食品業者"},{"start":13552.74,"end":13554.74,"text":"那他應該要我們會明定"},{"start":13554.74,"end":13556.74,"text":"他的這個檢驗頻率跟檢驗的項目"},{"start":13556.74,"end":13558.74,"text":"那我想讓相關的職責能夠"},{"start":13558.74,"end":13560.74,"text":"更清楚好最重要就是說希望這個機制"},{"start":13560.74,"end":13562.74,"text":"有監督的機制能夠加強"},{"start":13562.74,"end":13564.74,"text":"我想是最大的目的啦好謝謝"},{"start":13564.74,"end":13566.74,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13566.94,"end":13568.94,"text":"好謝謝劉淑冰委員的發言"},{"start":13569.64,"end":13575.64,"text":"那還有接下來是陳慶龍委員陳慶龍委員陳慶龍委員不在"},{"start":13576.83,"end":13578.83,"text":"好的那麼我們今天所有登記發言的委員"},{"start":13578.83,"end":13580.83,"text":"都已經發言完畢"},{"start":13580.83,"end":13582.83,"text":"詢答結束"},{"start":13582.83,"end":13584.83,"text":"那委員質詢時所要求提供的相關資料"},{"start":13584.83,"end":13586.83,"text":"或以書面答覆者"},{"start":13586.83,"end":13588.83,"text":"就請相關機關儘速送交"},{"start":13588.83,"end":13590.83,"text":"個別委員以及本會"},{"start":13590.83,"end":13592.83,"text":"那今天因為我們尤其法務部還有衛福部"},{"start":13592.83,"end":13594.83,"text":"這裡都有提供都要提供相關的資料"},{"start":13594.83,"end":13596.83,"text":"好所以那就麻煩"},{"start":13596.83,"end":13598.83,"text":"請一個禮拜之內就儘速提供給"},{"start":13598.83,"end":13600.83,"text":"呃"},{"start":13600.49,"end":13602.49,"text":"給本委員會"},{"start":13602.49,"end":13604.49,"text":"好那委員林沛祥審發會蔡其昌宏"},{"start":13604.49,"end":13606.49,"text":"郁祥蔡遵守傅坤齊徐新營"},{"start":13606.49,"end":13608.49,"text":"等委員所提書面質詢"},{"start":13608.49,"end":13610.49,"text":"列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":13610.49,"end":13612.49,"text":"並請相關機關以書面答覆"},{"start":13614.11,"end":13616.11,"text":"那本次會議的議程所列是向軍營處理完畢"},{"start":13616.11,"end":13618.11,"text":"那我們就到此結束"},{"start":13618.11,"end":13620.11,"text":"那現在散會"},{"start":13620.11,"end":13622.11,"text":"謝謝今天到場的各個部會首長"},{"start":13622.11,"end":13624.11,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}