{"error":false,"id":["17617"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17617,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17617","日期":"2026-07-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"黨團協商-2026072054","會議代碼:str":"立法院朝野黨團協商","屆":11,"會期":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"黨團協商","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-07-24T11:31:02+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-24T12:27:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:55:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855dff6cdbbe3701a8670cf53a5d35fd55b5b204f4a37948b97c53101b8dd6e00a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-07-24T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告併案審查委員王育敏等18人、委員劉建國等16人分別擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」等5案。）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"11:31:02 - 12:27:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3252.3328437500004,"end":3253.02471875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3253.2272187500002,"end":3254.6447187500007,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3255.1172187500006,"end":3255.38721875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3255.7247187500006,"end":3256.04534375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3257.2772187500004,"end":3263.2509687500005,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3264.6178437500002,"end":3266.22096875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3266.6259687500005,"end":3267.80721875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3268.4147187500002,"end":3270.0009687500005,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3270.7772187500004,"end":3272.7853437500007,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3273.1228437500004,"end":3275.19846875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3275.7215937500005,"end":3275.9747187500006,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3278.16846875,"end":3279.19784375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3280.26096875,"end":3280.9697187500005,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3281.94846875,"end":3282.1678437500004,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3282.6403437500003,"end":3282.85971875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3283.4334687500004,"end":3283.6697187500004,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3284.4628437500005,"end":3284.7665937500005,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3285.5934687500003,"end":3286.79159375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3287.33159375,"end":3288.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3288.78284375,"end":3288.9684687500003,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3288.9684687500003,"end":3289.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3289.91346875,"end":3290.7403437500006,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3291.3815937500003,"end":3293.84534375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3294.31784375,"end":3297.03471875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3297.03471875,"end":3297.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3297.08534375,"end":3297.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3297.27096875,"end":3298.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3297.8953437500004,"end":3298.18221875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3298.18221875,"end":3299.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3299.97096875,"end":3300.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3301.54034375,"end":3307.6490937500002,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3307.9190937500007,"end":3310.23096875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3310.5009687500005,"end":3310.83846875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3311.0915937500004,"end":3312.0534687500003,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3312.27284375,"end":3314.85471875,"speaker_score":0.899}],"whisperx":[{"start":3252.33,"end":3256.0499999999997,"text":"好,就你一丟,歹勢啦,好,對啦"},{"start":3257.28,"end":3263.2000000000003,"text":"因為你如果兩個王委員,一個王委員來,另外一個沒有來,大家也在那邊哭等"},{"start":3264.62,"end":3267.8199999999997,"text":"就只有一個王委員了,他們也王不見王啊"},{"start":3268.41,"end":3270.0099999999998,"text":"不如這把女的,雙龍都走來啊"},{"start":3270.78,"end":3272.78,"text":"你要有把握,我們就等"},{"start":3272.78,"end":3275.1800000000003,"text":"沒有把握,我們就讓他們王不見王啊"},{"start":3275.72,"end":3276.22,"text":"嘿"},{"start":3278.17,"end":3279.17,"text":"為什麼要等到三十問"},{"start":3281.95,"end":3282.45,"text":"嘿"},{"start":3283.43,"end":3285.43,"text":"好,我們就等到三十問"},{"start":3284.46,"end":3284.96,"text":"對啦"},{"start":3285.59,"end":3287.59,"text":"要不要等這邊弄著玩"},{"start":3291.38,"end":3297.38,"text":"我是很重視你們看的,所以你等到日本弄著玩,他們又沒來就沒辦法了"},{"start":3297.38,"end":3298.38,"text":"對啊"},{"start":3299.97,"end":3300.47,"text":"等會兒"},{"start":3301.54,"end":3306.54,"text":"好啦,我們就今天這個朝委協商,因為人數出席不足啦,好不好"},{"start":3306.54,"end":3310.54,"text":"我們遲幾再繼續協商"},{"start":3310.54,"end":3314.54,"text":"好,很抱歉,好,謝謝大家,嘿,要忙趕快去忙,好,謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:31:02+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:31:17.175926+08:00","text":"時間已到，請議事人員通知一下，國民黨團跟民進黨團怎麼都還沒到，謝謝台灣民眾黨團準\n時，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:31:17.175926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:31:32.351852+08:00","text":"不過黨團幹部還沒到，你提案委員到了沒話講，郭國文委員提案委員到了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:31:32.351852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:31:47.527778+08:00","text":"國民黨的副總召林沛祥委員、副書記長許宇甄委員也到了，現在就等民進黨團，民進黨團在\n電梯裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:31:47.527778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:32:02.703704+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:32:02.703704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:32:17.879630+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部都已經到了，提案委員郭國文委員、蔡春綢委員也到現場\n，陳菁徽委員也都到了現場，非常感謝各位黨團的幹部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:32:17.879630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:32:33.055556+08:00","text":"我們現在依照上週五的黨團共識進行法案協商，但是在協商之前，特別跟各黨團幹部報告，\n昨天總統府潘孟安秘書長陪同被提名監察委員來到本院拜會，他們希望針對監察委員同意權案\n的審查時程，潘秘書長以及被提名人希望能夠儘速安排後續的議程，所以對於同意權案的時程\n，這一點我們要受人之託，忠人之事。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:32:33.055556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:32:48.231481+08:00","text":"我們請各黨團幹部來表達一下監察委員所有後續審查的\n議程，請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴的意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:32:48.231481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:33:03.407407+08:00","text":"請表達。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:33:03.407407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:33:18.583333+08:00","text":"我們討論監察委員，請莊瑞雄幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:33:18.583333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:33:33.759259+08:00","text":"監察委員的部分，我跟院長及各位黨團協商代表做一個說明，昨天總統府潘秘書長也\n帶領監察院院長、副院長及所有監察委員被提名人來拜會，攸關到整個監察院監察委員都要卸\n任，確實作為一個憲政機關，總統也依法提名，我們是不是在整個審查的程序裡面來及早做訂\n定？","quality":0.009},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:33:33.759259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:33:48.935185+08:00","text":"院長因為可能考量到很多被提名人或者我們本院有一些相關的議事程序要去進行，是不是\n我們也先把此事確認下來，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:33:48.935185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:34:04.111111+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:34:04.111111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:34:19.287037+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團請表達意見好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:34:19.287037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:34:34.462963+08:00","text":"謝謝，請陳清龍總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-24T11:34:34.462963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:34:49.638889+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-24T11:34:49.638889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:35:04.814815+08:00","text":"監察委員被提名人昨天也拜會了韓院長，以目前來講，監察委員被提名人\n的審查當然是非常重要，但今天最主要的還是上禮拜五的黨團協商我們有兩個案子在今天請院\n長做協商，所以有關監察委員候選人的這些相關議程，我建議相關的審查時程在下禮拜請韓院\n長再特別召開協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-24T11:35:04.814815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:35:19.990741+08:00","text":"我們當然要儘速，我也同意要儘速，但是就安排到下禮拜，這是我的建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:35:19.990741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:35:35.166667+08:00","text":"所以你們的意思是下禮拜就對了？對。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:35:35.166667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:35:50.342593+08:00","text":"針對監察委員的議程，我們再專門開一次朝野協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:35:50.342593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:36:05.518519+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-07-24T11:36:05.518519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:36:20.694444+08:00","text":"我們黨團尊重院長，也尊重民眾黨黨團的意見，下禮拜協商 OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:36:20.694444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:36:35.870370+08:00","text":"好，各位黨團幹部，下禮拜針對監察委員同意權行使部分我們再繼續溝通，並發出朝野黨團\n協商通知，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:36:35.870370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:36:51.046296+08:00","text":"如果確定這樣，我們下星期來專門討論監察委員同意權的時間，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:36:51.046296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:37:06.222222+08:00","text":"現在進行法案協商，共兩題，第一題是未來帳戶條例制定案，第二題是公路法修正案，我們\n要開始依序進行協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:37:06.222222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:37:21.398148+08:00","text":"第一題是未來帳戶條例制定案，先介紹列席官員，首先歡迎衛福部石部\n長，歡迎；主計總處陳專門委員，歡迎；財政部陳政務次長，歡迎；勞動部勞工保險局白局長\n，歡迎；教育部張督學，教育部也列席了，謝謝；法務部汪參事，歡迎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:37:21.398148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:37:36.574074+08:00","text":"其他相關的列席官員\n，非常歡迎大家參加今天的朝野協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:37:36.574074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:37:51.750000+08:00","text":"本案共有三十多個條文，審查會除第一章章名之外，其餘均保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:37:51.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:38:06.925926+08:00","text":"現在開始進行協商，先從\n名稱開始，現在請各黨團表達意見，請范雲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:38:06.925926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:38:22.101852+08:00","text":"我是立委范雲，我們代表民進黨黨團要跟大家表達四點意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:38:22.101852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:38:37.277778+08:00","text":"第一點，就如同我們在委員會時有討論過的，整個民眾黨黨團所提的部分，不管是修正動議\n，或者是原來大家的版本，其實有一個最重要的問題，也就是我們長期在講的，根據預算法第\n九十一條規定「立法委員所提法律案大幅增加歲出或減少歲入者，應先徵詢行政院之意見，指\n明彌補資金之來源」，因為第一點就有不符財政紀律的問題，所以這部分我們並不支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:38:37.277778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:38:52.453704+08:00","text":"第二點也是很重要的，也是我們在委員會中有討論過的，我們看到這幾案關於內容的問題，\n就是所謂兒少成長跟未來帳戶，它在設計上會違反租稅公平，因為對於不需要繳稅或是相對經\n濟弱勢以及沒有能力自存款的家庭，並沒有減稅的實益，而且讓高所得者享有較大幅度的減稅\n利益，大家這個提案其實用意是好的，可是卻會造成租稅不公平的結果。","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:38:52.453704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:39:07.629630+08:00","text":"第三個我們不支持的原因是，這個效果本來大家是要解決跨世代貧富差距，這個立法目的也\n講得很好，可是學者已經公開發言指出，依照他們的推估，12 年之後貧富差距可能會相差 200\n萬，也就是最窮的五分之一家庭跟最富有的五分之一家庭的累計可能會相差 200 萬，因為家長\n的自存款不同，他本來能夠拿出來的，就是累積的、在銀行得到的利息存款也不同，最後會變\n成富者越富，本來就比較有錢的，他又自存款更多，得到更多的利息跟抵稅的優惠，結果更窮\n的反而就沒有自存款，所以它造成擴大貧富差距的效果，跟立法目的是不同的。","quality":0.009},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:39:07.629630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:39:22.805556+08:00","text":"最後我們也有比較，就是行政院版本來就有非常相近的設計，在預算、在各方面都是好的，\n而且不會造成加大貧富差距的結果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:39:22.805556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:39:37.981481+08:00","text":"但是我們看到在野黨的這個版本，還會衍生一個龐大的行\n政成本，實際上可行度低，就是必須要以兒童或少年的名義開立臺灣未來帳戶，最後還有一個\n很複雜的行政程序，不管是第二十一條規定的，需要依照民法宣告停止親權、追回全數款項等\n協 3\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:39:37.981481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:39:53.157407+08:00","text":"事實上要追回款項的話，還有漫長的司法程序等等。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:39:53.157407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:40:08.333333+08:00","text":"它在行政上，不管是對我們的民眾，或\n者是對相關單位來講，行政成本都很高，可行性也低。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:40:08.333333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:40:23.509259+08:00","text":"基於以上這幾個理由，我們黨團並不支持這樣的版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-07-24T11:40:23.509259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:40:38.685185+08:00","text":"以上說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:40:38.685185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:40:53.861111+08:00","text":"謝謝民進黨黨團的范雲書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:40:53.861111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:41:09.037037+08:00","text":"接下來台灣民眾黨黨團的邱慧洳委員請發言，林沛祥委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:41:09.037037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:41:24.212963+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:41:24.212963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:41:39.388889+08:00","text":"我們原本的名稱是叫做「臺灣未來帳戶」，但是因為現在少子化非常的嚴\n重，我們覺得應該再給父母在育兒上更多、更大的經濟誘因，所以我們將原本臺灣未來帳戶的\n概念，又再多增加了一個叫做成長津貼的概念進去，因此我們就正名成「臺灣兒少成長及未來\n帳戶條例」，這是第一點要跟大家說明的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:41:39.388889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:41:54.564815+08:00","text":"我們這個新的制度其實是雙軌進行，第一軌有原始 TFA 的概念在裡面，也就是嬰兒出生之後\n會先給他啟動金 6 萬的第一桶金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:41:54.564815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:42:09.740741+08:00","text":"等到他 7 歲未滿 18 歲這段期間，會給他每個月 2,500 的撥補\n款。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:42:09.740741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:42:24.916667+08:00","text":"在第二軌，也就是成長津貼的部分，從出生到未滿 7 歲這段期間，每年會給 6 萬的成長津\n貼。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:42:24.916667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:42:40.092593+08:00","text":"過了這個階段之後，來到 7 歲未滿 18 歲這個階段，會每個月給 2,500 的成長津貼，所以我\n們的金額有一個特色，叫做「666」，就是啟動金 6 萬、成長津貼每年 6 萬，到了 7 歲之後 18\n歲以前這段期間，成長津貼加上 TFA 的原始概念，撥補款兩個加起來也是 6 萬，所以我們推出\n來的就是一個「666」的方案，也希望父母在生兒育女的道路之上，有六六大順的感覺，而不是\n面臨經濟的困頓，政府資源相對沒有挹注。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:42:40.092593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:42:55.268519+08:00","text":"除此之外，我們為了讓兒少在 18 歲的時候有豐滿的第一桶金，這個第一桶金不是亂用，是用\n在五個非常具有意義，而且可能是翻轉人生的用途上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:42:55.268519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:43:10.444444+08:00","text":"第一個，就是就業、就學、創業，接著\n就是房貸首期款，還有租屋費用，我想這些都是用在刀口上，也都是非常關鍵的使用目的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:43:10.444444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:43:25.620370+08:00","text":"當\n然，我們希望 18 歲這一桶金能夠又大又滿，所以我們設計了讓父母能夠投入自存款，每年是 20\n萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:43:25.620370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:43:40.796296+08:00","text":"當然，我們也設計了企業能一起響應，來豐滿兒童 18 歲的第一桶金，所以企業如果願意協\n助的話，每年是 5 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:43:40.796296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:43:55.972222+08:00","text":"我想這些目的都是為了讓兒童在 18 歲的時候有一個披荊斬棘的動力、資\n源還有後盾。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:43:55.972222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:44:11.148148+08:00","text":"剛剛民進黨有提到違反財政紀律，事實上，我們知道賴清德總統的大禮包，我們一路關切，\n其實我們的制度跟賴清德的制度幾乎是一模一樣，只差在賴政府所推出來的並沒有出生之後給 6\n萬的啟動金，否則其他的制度其實是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:44:11.148148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:44:26.324074+08:00","text":"如果賴清德總統推動的大禮包沒有財政紀律的問\n題，那為什麼台灣民眾黨跟國民黨所共提 TFA 的帳戶跟概念會有財政紀律的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:44:26.324074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:44:41.500000+08:00","text":"這是我第一\n個想問的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:44:41.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:44:56.675926+08:00","text":"剛剛民進黨也有提到什麼租稅、影響貧富差距之類，事實上這個等一下可以請衛福部部長回\n應，衛福部部長其實現行有一個類似的概念，只是是對於一些弱勢的家庭，其中如果我沒記錯\n，應該有對存的概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:44:56.675926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:45:11.851852+08:00","text":"因此，為什麼對存的概念，在民進黨政府所推動的制度裡頭，沒有貧富\n差距的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:45:11.851852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:45:27.027778+08:00","text":"但在我們共提的版本裡頭，就有貧富差距的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:45:27.027778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:45:42.203704+08:00","text":"這是我們想要反問的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:45:42.203704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:45:57.379630+08:00","text":"剛剛民進黨也提到行政成本，我們要政府幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:45:57.379630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:46:12.555556+08:00","text":"就是幫我們推福國利民的政策，而福國利民\n的政策當然就有一些行政成本，難道民進黨政府把行政成本看得比兒少的第一桶金還重要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:46:12.555556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:46:27.731481+08:00","text":"協 4\n生養子女的家庭有經濟困頓，而我們進一步要給予經濟誘因，有比這件事還重要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:46:27.731481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:46:42.907407+08:00","text":"我真的很\n想問，以 20%為標準將油停留在架上跟下架，這個標準到底是為了維護廠商的利益，還是為了\n維護消費者的利益？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T11:46:42.907407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:46:58.083333+08:00","text":"同樣的一個邏輯，行政成本本來就是固定要支出的，你不能夠因為行政成\n本要支出，就去打擊兒少、父母在整個育兒過程當中所應該享有的福利跟權利，以上說明，謝\n謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:46:58.083333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:47:13.259259+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:47:13.259259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:47:28.435185+08:00","text":"國民黨團陳菁徽委員，還是許宇甄委員要發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:47:28.435185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:47:43.611111+08:00","text":"郭國文委員請準備，因為你是提案委員，好\n嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:47:43.611111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:47:58.787037+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-24T11:47:58.787037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:48:13.962963+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，今天我們協商臺灣未來帳戶特別條例草案，其實國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團\n早就提出了這個條例的版本，早在賴清德總統宣布家庭支持篇的 18 項措施之前，我們就已經進\n入立法院審查的程序，也代表國民黨早就看到少子化不能只靠短期的補助，必須建立一套陪孩\n子累積到 18歲、長期資產的一個制度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-24T11:48:13.962963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:48:29.138889+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，雖然賴總統提出了這樣子的概念，但行政院到現在一直都還沒有一套院版的\n法律條文送到立法院，我們現在看到還是政策說明、行政規劃跟政治指示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-24T11:48:29.138889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:48:44.314815+08:00","text":"因此，我們覺得孩\n子人生的起步金，不能只靠行政機關未來願不願意編列預算、願不願意繼續推來決定，所以這\n麼重要的制度一定要有明確的法律條文，必須要有財源設計，必須要有基金的監理，必須要有\n資訊的公開，也必須要接受立法院的審議跟監督。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-24T11:48:44.314815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:48:59.490741+08:00","text":"當然，這也是國民黨版最重要的地方，國民\n黨版不是只有給孩子一個專戶，而是我們必須要明訂啟動金、撥補款、自存款、企業贊助款跟\n基金投資的收益，不只政府要照顧孩子，而是要把中央與地方的主管機關、開戶的程序、收益\n的保障、提領的用途、財務的透明跟基金的監理、特別預算的送審，都寫入到法律當中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-24T11:48:59.490741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:49:14.666667+08:00","text":"換句\n話說，賴總統的 18 項提出了方向，但是因為國民黨團跟民眾黨團早就已經提出這樣的法律條文\n，所以我們希望今天可以針對國民黨版跟民眾黨版的臺灣未來帳戶實質的審查，讓臺灣未來帳\n戶能夠儘快的三讀通過，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:49:14.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:49:29.842593+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:49:29.842593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:49:45.018519+08:00","text":"郭國文委員發言之後，麻煩請衛福部石部長準備發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:49:45.018519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:50:00.194444+08:00","text":"郭委員請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:50:00.194444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:50:15.370370+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:50:15.370370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:50:30.546296+08:00","text":"剛剛我聆聽了三個黨團版本的內容，還有就我所理解的行政院版本的內\n容，我想就制度面來跟大家進行對話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:50:30.546296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:50:45.722222+08:00","text":"基本上，國民黨團跟民眾黨團是有提出法案，我們政府、執政黨這邊是用一個行政架構底下\n要來推兒童未來的帳戶。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:50:45.722222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:51:00.898148+08:00","text":"不過，就這個概念來說，我剛剛聆聽了民眾黨團的概念，民眾黨黨團\n跟政府部門主要的部分，就是在啟動金的規劃跟設計，後續津貼部分的概念，其實國民黨黨團\n、民眾黨黨團跟政府部門是雷同的，也就是基本上到最後投資方向還是在共同基金的架構當中\n，而不是一個專屬個人的兒童 TISA 的概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:51:00.898148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:51:16.074074+08:00","text":"我為什麼特別強調個人帳戶，而不是所謂的共同帳\n戶？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:51:16.074074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:51:31.250000+08:00","text":"這差別性在這邊，第一個個人帳戶制，在勞退的部分有個人帳戶制，在 TISA 的部分有個人\n投資的帳戶，這不論是美國、英國或日本都是採取個人帳戶制的方式，倘若是用共同基金的方\n協 5\n式，共同基金的方式就類似於我們勞退的專戶概念，共同基金的受益者如果投資有收益的話，\n其實是回饋到當初的提撥者身上，也就是政府部門將來可以少提列，而不是直接回饋於他個人\n帳戶的這個金額當中，會變成一個福國，但是不夠利民的結果，但是用個人帳戶制的話，每一\n個所操作上帶來年化率的累積都會投資到個人帳戶。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:51:31.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:51:46.425926+08:00","text":"我講一個比較具體的例子，如果按照我們用個人帳戶制概念的話，以勞退金的個人帳戶制，\n整個代操單位的所得都回歸到勞工個人所有，但是以企業的勞退金，所有代操作的所得都是為\n企業所有，變成企業將來是少提撥退休金到這個專戶，而不是直接回饋給勞工，差別性在這邊\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:51:46.425926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:52:01.601852+08:00","text":"同樣的，如果用共同基金的操作方式，一來它只會讓政府減少提撥的金額，而不是直接受惠\n於兒童本身，所以我個人強調應該要採取個人帳戶制一個很重要的理由，這是第一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:52:01.601852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:52:16.777778+08:00","text":"第二個，以過往 18 年臺股的年化率來說，大約是 11.5%的結果，就是投報率 11.5%，可是就\n勞退舊制代操的成績來說，我們過去比較同樣的時間大約只有 6.5%，也就是基本上以市場的年\n化率透過這個投資的方式，反而就有這代操的兩倍之多，所以這樣累積起來最後一桶金才會真\n的滿，民眾黨希望這桶金是滿的，那這桶金怎麼用途呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:52:16.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:52:31.953704+08:00","text":"基本上我個人的主張，其實跟民眾黨\n也沒有差別到哪裡去，就學、就業或者有其他房子頭期款的考量，這雷同，但是問題是制度上\n不一樣，你這桶金將來滿不滿的程度就差非常的多，我覺得這邊還是要肯定一點，以政府部門\n的方式 0 到 6 歲提撥 2,500，但 7 到 18 歲另外投入帳戶是 2,500，這 2,500 的作用跟我原來對照\n的版本 1,200、1,200，少了自提制度上的複雜性之外，最重要的，它只要擺對地方，再配合市場\n的年化率，接下來一桶金的金額很可能就會有 150萬之多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-24T11:52:31.953704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:52:47.129630+08:00","text":"所以我在這邊想要跟石部長進行一個對話，行政部門在做這樣規劃的情況底下，即便在行政\n架構當中、即便你不立法的情況底下，現在的個人帳戶制以及現在金管會 TISA 的概念，可以把\n它延伸到兒少的 TISA，你不用修法，但是你的收益會更多、兒童的受益會更多，你一樣投入\n2,500，你投入這個帳戶當中 2,500 是一個存量的概念，不是一個流量的概念，可是你如果投入\n這 2,500 當中是用個人帳務制、是用流量的概念的話，你接下來的金額就完全不一樣，所以我請\n行政部門好好思考一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:52:47.129630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:53:02.305556+08:00","text":"謝謝郭國文委員發言，因為郭國文委員是提案委員。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:53:02.305556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:53:17.481481+08:00","text":"石部長請發言好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:53:17.481481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:53:32.657407+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長，還有各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:53:32.657407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:53:47.833333+08:00","text":"謹就行政部門的評估來跟各位委員報告。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:53:47.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:54:03.009259+08:00","text":"其實現在行政院也已經同意讓行政部門比照之前從 101 年開始實施的育兒津貼編列預算，並\n以作業要點來執行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:54:03.009259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:54:18.185185+08:00","text":"所以目前已經在預算書上面編列，明年開始要推動育兒津貼，0 到 6 歲每個\n月有 5,000 塊；6 歲到 18 歲每月 2,500 存入一個專戶，2,500 直接由父母來支領，這個執行的方\n式無須個人開戶，直到 18 歲的時候，再依當時的收益，或者是保障基本兩年期定存利率的收益\n，給予 18歲成年的少年，所以整個制度上，現在大概都已經規劃了，明年就可以上路。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:54:18.185185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:54:33.361111+08:00","text":"至於剛剛有委員特別提到，目前我們還有一個是兒少未來教育與發展帳戶，這個帳戶的設計\n裡面包含了政府的對撥，就是父母幫兒少開了一個帳戶，每個月父母存入多少，政府會對撥，\n不過這僅限於中低收入戶跟特別的福利對象，所以並不是普發性的設計。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:54:33.361111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:54:48.537037+08:00","text":"協 6\n所以今天就國民黨團跟民眾黨團的提案，行政部門的評估意見第一個，在第一條立法意旨就\n明定要解決跨世代貧富差距，但是揆諸整個設計，除了啟動金之外，尚有自存款及企業贊助款\n，到底多少的弱勢家庭有能力繼續存，能享受後面這個操作的收益，甚至在政府預算補貼其虧\n損的時候，會造成另外一個世代貧富差距加大，這是第一個；第二個，就賦稅公平來看也是同\n樣的，關於免稅，有多少家庭能夠享受到這個額外的自存款，跟企業贊助等等的稅賦減免，這\n個也是存疑的；再者，在行政程序上，我們現在的設計上是無須個人開戶，在指定的專戶裡面\n由共同基金來操作，滿 18 歲的時候再來提領，所以在行政程序上也簡化許多，所以我們建議維\n持現在由行政部門透過預算法編列預算，經立法院的審查之後，讓我們來推動。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T11:54:48.537037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:55:03.712963+08:00","text":"以上補充說明\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:55:03.712963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:55:18.888889+08:00","text":"謝謝石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T11:55:18.888889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:55:34.064815+08:00","text":"請莊瑞雄委員發言，劉書彬委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:55:34.064815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:55:49.240741+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:55:49.240741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:56:04.416667+08:00","text":"我就簡單說，大家講過的我就不再講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:56:04.416667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:56:19.592593+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨這個版本，我是覺得可以再考慮一下，你們這有一點開玩笑，你們知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:56:19.592593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:56:34.768519+08:00","text":"你們\n說立法目的是要解決世代貧富差距，但是你們設計的制度裡面那些自存款的部分，你們是以開\n戶人名義每年自己存入帳戶，你們修正之後變成一年每一戶 20 萬，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:56:34.768519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:56:49.944444+08:00","text":"你本來是要解決貧\n富差距，你現在這樣子把它定下去以後，其實是在加大貧富差距，難道你們不知道會產生這樣\n的狀況嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:56:49.944444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:57:05.120370+08:00","text":"我搞不懂，一套法律的設計裡面，你說政府不管基於福利行政或者給付行政，把整\n個預算送到國會裡面讓大家來審查，當然就是一個法律案，我知道你們擔心的是，如果今年有\n，明年萬一沒有呢？","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:57:05.120370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:57:20.296296+08:00","text":"你擔心的是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:57:20.296296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:57:35.472222+08:00","text":"一個專法有這樣的好處，我知道你們用心良苦啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:57:35.472222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:57:50.648148+08:00","text":"要讓\n它可以源遠流長，大家一定都有。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:57:50.648148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:58:05.824074+08:00","text":"但是所設計出來的反而跟你們立法目的講的，要解決世代貧\n富差距剛好背道而馳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:58:05.824074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:58:21+08:00","text":"你當作低收入戶家庭，真的有辦法來存 20 萬，有那麼好存？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:58:21+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:58:36.175926+08:00","text":"然後企業大\n家來給他支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:58:36.175926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:58:51.351852+08:00","text":"你們如果要提這個版本，這條你們用膝蓋想一下，稍微去改一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:58:51.351852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:59:06.527778+08:00","text":"你們 8 席很\n想發揮很大的影響力，好事！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:59:06.527778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:59:21.703704+08:00","text":"可是變成你們在野者 8 席要代行執政者的職責，如果今天行政院\n對這方面，全部都沒有提出一個對策、計畫，你拿這個案子才會通。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:59:21.703704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:59:36.879630+08:00","text":"你們對於條文這樣設計，\n我覺得真的萬萬不可行啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:59:36.879630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T11:59:52.055556+08:00","text":"而且這在立法院裡面、在現在的結構裡面，提出這種大幅增加政府\n歲出的部分，你只是把條文拿出來，但你也不會去問行政部門、行政院，這部分的財源從哪裡\n來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T11:59:52.055556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:00:07.231481+08:00","text":"你們完全都沒有考慮到這個部分，最主要的是，你提供綜合所得稅的列舉扣除這個部分，\n對於不需要繳稅，或者相對經濟弱勢、沒有能力自存的家庭並沒有減稅的實益，最後變成高所\n得者享受大幅度減稅的利益，這跟你們所提這部法令的立法目的，要用臺灣兒少成長跟未來帳\n戶解決跨世代貧富差距剛剛好相反，你會加大整個貧富的差距，所以民進黨黨團表達反對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:00:07.231481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:00:22.407407+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:00:22.407407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:00:37.583333+08:00","text":"接下來有 3位委員要發言，不是黨團幹部，拜託控制一下時間，好嗎？","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:00:37.583333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:00:52.759259+08:00","text":"現在請劉書彬委員發言，林月琴委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:00:52.759259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:01:07.935185+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:01:07.935185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:01:23.111111+08:00","text":"國民黨跟民眾黨所提出來的再修正動議，最主要的重點是因應今年 5月中\n旬賴清德總統所提出來的臺灣人口對策新戰略，這部分的預算其實我們都精算過，如果是照民\n協 7\n進黨政府的作法，他們用的是作業要點，政府每年投入大概 776 億。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:01:23.111111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:01:38.287037+08:00","text":"但是我們已經算過，在我\n們民眾黨跟國民黨 2.0 再修正動議的版本，一年是 676 億的經費，其實還會更少，為什麼有這個\n差異性？","quality":0.082},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:01:38.287037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:01:53.462963+08:00","text":"最重要的原因就是因為我們有家庭的資助，企業也可以自由加入，另外也有基金的管\n理。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:01:53.462963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:02:08.638889+08:00","text":"第二個部分，兩個最大的差異是我們把它法制化了，就是要避免政黨的更替之後會有自己利\n益的考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:02:08.638889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:02:23.814815+08:00","text":"但是大家既然把少子化變成一個非常重要的政策，就應該把它法制化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-24T12:02:23.814815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:02:38.990741+08:00","text":"第三個重點，我剛才回應到的是民進黨委員所提到的部分，其實不會有剛才說的不平等的情\n況，我剛回應了財政經費的問題，第二個是平等的問題，你們所擔心會有不平等的狀況，這是\n不會發生的，因為自己投入多少就是你自己未來的使用，然後加上基金累積的效果，你本來沒\n有投入這麼多，你就不可能期待你會有更多的部分，而多的部分是政府應該給的，是每一個人\n平均的部分，所以民進黨委員所擔心的，我覺得有點多慮的，我們就讓他本身支付多少，就讓\n他投入多少，以上補充。","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:02:38.990741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:02:54.166667+08:00","text":"謝謝劉書彬委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:02:54.166667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:03:09.342593+08:00","text":"接下來請林月琴委員發言，陳菁徽委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:03:09.342593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:03:24.518519+08:00","text":"我想這個議題應該不能簡化成誰比較願意給孩子錢，真正要問的是哪一套制度真的比\n較公平、比較穩、比較能夠執行，也要真的能讓家庭受益。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:03:24.518519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:03:39.694444+08:00","text":"我支持國家要投資 0 到 18 歲的兒少，可是制度不能這樣做，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:03:39.694444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:03:54.870370+08:00","text":"之前討論這個草案中，\n有很多學者公開提出疑慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:03:54.870370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:04:10.046296+08:00","text":"蔡明芳教授指出該草案沒有辦法真正解決少子化問題，直言在貧富\n差距的基礎上，繼續談平權就是繼續維持貧富差距，甚至擴大貧富差距。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:04:10.046296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:04:25.222222+08:00","text":"當天葉崇揚教授也認\n為政府應該把資源投入到公共托育，而非投入到金融市場，他批評這個制度不是投資在未來的\n孩子上，只是投資在金融市場上及投資在有錢人的身上而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:04:25.222222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:04:40.398148+08:00","text":"之前我一直在講，為什麼我們對這一塊有擔憂？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:04:40.398148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:04:55.574074+08:00","text":"根據條例，除了政府給每位孩子的啟動金及\n補助款外，家長每年還可以自存最高 10 萬，家長的雇主也能替員工加碼 5 萬，且擁有抵稅的優\n惠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:04:55.574074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:05:10.750000+08:00","text":"一個高收入的家庭，自存款跟企業款每年存好存滿，到了 18 歲，從本金累積最高可以到\n196 萬元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:05:10.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:05:25.925926+08:00","text":"可是弱勢家庭的家長通常他們是非典型工作者，他們可能是打零工的人，沒有雇主，\n怎麼讓他們有雇主幫他存？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:05:25.925926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:05:41.101852+08:00","text":"家長收入高的，又幫他存，又還可以抵稅，這些弱勢家庭的孩子最\n後只剩下政府投入的 16 萬，光是本金差異就有 180 萬，再加上 18 年投資的複利成長，兩者的\n資產已經可以擴大到 250 萬，甚至到 300 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:05:41.101852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:05:56.277778+08:00","text":"這一再地講，每次都說：我們沒有擴大貧富差距\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:05:56.277778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:06:11.453704+08:00","text":"明明就有擴大貧富差距。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:06:11.453704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:06:26.629630+08:00","text":"我在質詢的時候，也一直在提醒在野黨說，這「兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶」是一個社\n會救助的計畫，那個是對弱勢家庭，過去他們要去存款的時候，相對資源上就有困難，可是當\n你說這兩塊是分開來的，可是這一塊你反而是要拿大筆的鈔票去投資高收入家庭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:06:26.629630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:06:41.805556+08:00","text":"我不知道在\n野兩黨的眼裡，對於弱勢家庭、中產家庭，你們到底是怎麼看待他們的？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:06:41.805556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:06:56.981481+08:00","text":"難道都在欺負弱勢嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:06:56.981481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:07:12.157407+08:00","text":"難道對我們的弱勢都這樣子，每次打著民生，可是真正有在照顧弱勢嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:07:12.157407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:07:27.333333+08:00","text":"另外，民眾黨剛才在提到行政成本，因為現在政府提出的方案，最大的優勢就是簡單、直接\n協 8\n，而且可以利用既有的戶籍及行政資料由政府主動給付、直接撥入到專戶，不需要家長跑銀行\n，也不需要重新建立一套複雜的制度，目前我們是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:07:27.333333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:07:42.509259+08:00","text":"可是民眾黨版本是要求民眾要到金融\n機構開立實體帳戶，帳戶裡又分成啟動金、政府撥補、家長自存款、企業贊助款及基金收益，\n每一筆錢都要分別記帳、核對及管理，且還要跨金融機構、勞保局、基金運用局、稅務機關及\n地方政府的處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:07:42.509259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:07:57.685185+08:00","text":"政府的做法是要把行政責任留在政府，讓錢直接拿到家庭手上，而民眾黨的\n做法卻是把行政責任丟給家長，讓人民自己開戶、補件、查詢及變更資料，這會更有效嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:07:57.685185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:08:12.861111+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要擴充原本過去的「兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶」，而不是又設置另\n外一個，事實上是在幫助高收入的家庭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-07-24T12:08:12.861111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:08:28.037037+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:08:28.037037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:08:43.212963+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:08:43.212963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:08:58.388889+08:00","text":"陳菁徽委員請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:08:58.388889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:09:13.564815+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員及官員出席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:09:13.564815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:09:28.740741+08:00","text":"基本上想讓大家先知道一個數據，我們去年出\n生是 10 萬 7,000 個小朋友，比起國發會最低、最悲觀的推估是 12 萬 5,000 個新生兒，結果只有\n10 萬 7,000 個，今年更擔心是 9 萬以下，這樣算下來的話，到 2070 年臺灣人口會是現在的一半\n，所以我們是希望大家不要再對育兒，或者是給孩子的第一桶金上，居然在這樣的場合做這樣\n的爭吵，我是覺得有一點點荒謬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:09:28.740741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:09:43.916667+08:00","text":"因為我們給馬桶公司做炸藥的錢不手軟，我們給裝潢公司做\n炸藥的錢也不手軟，可是我們給各種政治傾向家庭小朋友的津貼，還有給他們未來出社會 18 年\n以後的第一桶金，我們卻在這邊吵，真的是太離譜了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:09:43.916667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:09:59.092593+08:00","text":"我們這些錢不管家裡什麼政治傾向，他們都可以領得到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:09:59.092593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:10:14.268519+08:00","text":"如果你們很在意這些家長的背景\n，每一個支持民進黨、支持民眾黨、支持國民黨的家庭，裡面不是也都有經濟狀況不同，或者\n是在公司裡面，有的公司有提供彈性育兒，有的沒有提供彈性育兒，所以依照對面的說法，是\n有提供彈性育兒的人也應該取消，大家一視同仁，不然好像有在公司上班的且家裡有彈性育兒\n，就是他的 privilege，這真的是太奇怪了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:10:14.268519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:10:29.444444+08:00","text":"再來，我想講一下，剛剛有講到有一些教授說這個錢應該要花在公托、花在托育等等的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:10:29.444444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:10:44.620370+08:00","text":"過\n去 10 年，我們在這些少子化對策計畫，所謂石崇良部長說無形的少子化辦公室，這個錢會少嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:10:44.620370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:10:59.796296+08:00","text":"這個錢會少嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:10:59.796296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:11:14.972222+08:00","text":"我已經去算完了，這個錢大概六、七千億啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:11:14.972222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:11:30.148148+08:00","text":"這六、七千億放在少子化對策\n計畫說要解決少子化，結果人口是從 22萬的新生兒掉到 10萬，再來明年可能掉到 9萬、掉到 8\n萬，所以這位教授真的覺得公托可以解決問題嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:11:30.148148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:11:45.324074+08:00","text":"這八、九成少子化對策計畫裡面的錢是全部\n都花在津貼跟公托。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:11:45.324074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:12:00.500000+08:00","text":"再來，有關衛福部的帳戶，之前有一位非常非常資深的民進黨財政委員會的委員就已經講很\n沒有彈性、太保守，因為他對財政非常熟稔，並且他知道世界上很多先進國家都有同樣的做法\n，因為這個帳戶的錢是為了讓小朋友跟家長分開的時候，家長沒有疑慮，給津貼是解決每一個\n月家長急需用錢的時候，這兩個都很重要！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:12:00.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:12:15.675926+08:00","text":"當然這個非常資深的民進黨委員有先提，藍白也先\n提，一樣是差不多的概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:12:15.675926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:12:30.851852+08:00","text":"當時衛福部是說很不贊成，恐加深貧富差距等等，可是等到賴清德\n520 又說他有個大禮包，少子化議題提升至國家戰略層級，他也把它包進少子化，也提了帳戶，\n協 9\n衛福部馬上又改口說少子化不僅是家庭議題，更是臺灣競爭力跟社會永續發展的重要課題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:12:30.851852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:12:46.027778+08:00","text":"毫\n不害臊地這樣子附和，直接抄大家的作業，不管是津貼增加或者是每一個小朋友的帳戶。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:12:46.027778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:13:01.203704+08:00","text":"這個\n很資深的財政委員也說，說實在的，衛福部這個帳戶過度保守，不一定有這麼多人需要 2,500 元\n的成長津貼，我認為未來的第一桶金才是設計的關鍵，不是生活津貼，難道全民都需要生活津\n貼嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-24T12:13:01.203704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:13:16.379630+08:00","text":"老實說，行政成本不會很大，一年生 9 萬人，行政成本怎麼可能會大，如果行政成本變\n大，才是大家需要開心的事情，我等一下再補充說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:13:16.379630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:13:31.555556+08:00","text":"謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:13:31.555556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:13:46.731481+08:00","text":"各黨團幹部，我們已經溝通將近一個小時，謝謝非黨團幹部洪毓祥委員，還有劉書彬委員、\n陳菁徽委員、林月琴委員、郭國文委員都一起來參與，大家都非常關心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:13:46.731481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:14:01.907407+08:00","text":"傅崐萁總召請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:14:01.907407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:14:17.083333+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:14:17.083333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:14:32.259259+08:00","text":"謝謝今天民眾黨、民進黨還有衛福部，大家對於國家少子化的問題都提出\n了相關的高見跟看法。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:14:32.259259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:14:47.435185+08:00","text":"我想國民黨的立場非常清楚，對於現在少子化的問題，如果我們國家再\n不拿出一套完整的辦法出來，假設少子化越來越嚴重，就不只是國安危機。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:14:47.435185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:15:02.611111+08:00","text":"大家朗朗上口，但\n是有沒有真的想過未來這個危機是非常非常得嚴重，當我們是倒三角形的人口結構的話，未來\n我們的孩子要背負多麼沉重的家庭負擔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:15:02.611111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:15:17.787037+08:00","text":"整個國家的生產力及經濟發展都會受到嚴重的重創。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:15:17.787037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:15:32.962963+08:00","text":"我想各個國家對於少子化的問題都在提出相關的解決辦法，而且今天不做，明天就會後悔，\n在現今貧富差距越來越嚴重的情況之下，我們要給年輕人適當的鼓勵，不只要他們能夠成家，\n而且要勇敢地生小孩。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:15:32.962963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:15:48.138889+08:00","text":"所以在今年 2 月份我們國民黨跟民眾黨兩黨主席就已經召集兩黨的立法\n委員，為了因應少子化問題提出臺灣未來帳戶。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:15:48.138889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:16:03.314815+08:00","text":"我在這裡要特別希望大家用同理心來看這個法\n案，這不是一個政治攻防，不管是國民黨、民眾黨還是賴清德總統所提出的版本，它都有一樣\n的財政支出、都有相對的行政成本，所以沒有什麼財政紀律不合等等問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:16:03.314815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:16:18.490741+08:00","text":"尤其在我們 2 月份\n提出之後，賴清德總統在 520 就職兩週年時宣布的，幾乎與國民黨、民眾黨所有的法案提案內\n容，我想賴總統都採用了，既然如此，大家有共同的共識，就是國家問題即少子化問題一定要\n解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:16:18.490741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:16:33.666667+08:00","text":"我想經過國會、經由立法程序來完成這個福國利民的條例，不只有完整的正當性，更有\n全國最高民意機關正式的同意，我想這程序才完成，而不是用一個行政命令做這麼重大的支出\n，沒有經過國會的相關立法讓其適法性能夠更加完整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:16:33.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:16:48.842593+08:00","text":"我們在這裡要特別強調，全世界 AI 大爆發，臺灣也因為有台積電，國家經濟正全面重大成長\n，今年預計超收的稅收可能超過一兆臺幣以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:16:48.842593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:17:04.018519+08:00","text":"對於這樣一個福國利民、合法合規的條例推動\n，各黨應該放下各種成見全力支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:17:04.018519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:17:19.194444+08:00","text":"至於條文內容，特別是剛剛大家不斷在鑽研這 20 是不是家\n長要存款？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:17:19.194444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:17:34.370370+08:00","text":"我回到大家的盲點，其實要開戶，不只是臺灣未來帳戶，為孩子開戶也可以不只開\n一個戶頭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:17:34.370370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:17:49.546296+08:00","text":"至於錢要存哪裡，我想國民黨並沒有這麼 concern，但國家未來帳戶這個戶頭，是國\n家要撥款進來的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:17:49.546296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:18:04.722222+08:00","text":"還有一個很重要的就是，當國內很多企業要捐助的時候，可以捐給國家，甚\n至可以指定捐給未來帳戶裡的中低收入戶孩子，或者也可以捐給臺灣全體的孩子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:18:04.722222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:18:19.898148+08:00","text":"我想這是一\n個鼓勵的性質，至於父母要不要來存款？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:18:19.898148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:18:35.074074+08:00","text":"這相對也是屬於鼓勵的性質，我們並不反對，但也不\n堅持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:18:35.074074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:18:50.250000+08:00","text":"協 10\n針對帳戶內容與立意，我想三個黨態度是一致的，至於是不是要有 20 萬這些相對措施，我們\n願意廣納大家的意見，也都可以接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:18:50.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:19:05.425926+08:00","text":"謝謝傅崐萁總召的發言，接下來非黨團幹部的洪孟楷委員也加入了我們討論的陣營。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:19:05.425926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:19:20.601852+08:00","text":"我想我\n們先休息一下，大家要開始進入條文了，我們休息一下，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:19:20.601852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:19:35.777778+08:00","text":"休息（9時 48分）\n繼續開會（9時 52分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:19:35.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:19:50.953704+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團幹部，也謝謝各位列席官員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:19:50.953704+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:20:06.129630+08:00","text":"現在請衛福部石部長發言，待石部長發言完\n畢、各黨團幹部也發言完畢之後，主席將要進行宣告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:20:06.129630+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:20:21.305556+08:00","text":"請石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:20:21.305556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:20:36.481481+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長，還有各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:20:36.481481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:20:51.657407+08:00","text":"我想在進入最後的討論之前，先報告有關兒少投資帳戶\n，剛剛大家有提到過去英國曾經有實施的先例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:20:51.657407+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:21:06.833333+08:00","text":"英國在 2005年開始實施，但在 2011年終止，因為在試辦的六年當中他們發現了幾個問題：第\n一個，因為每個家庭的儲蓄能力不同，所以儲蓄力是越高所得者越多；越低所得者就幾乎沒有\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:21:06.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:21:22.009259+08:00","text":"第二個，有資訊落差，也因此投資能力上也是不同的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:21:22.009259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:21:37.185185+08:00","text":"所以整個實施下來，造成貧富之間的\n差距擴大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:21:37.185185+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:21:52.361111+08:00","text":"如果按照現在國民黨團、民眾黨團的提案設計，未來貧富差距可能會拉大到十倍左\n右的收入不同，即最後領到的錢會有十倍的差距。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:21:52.361111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:22:07.537037+08:00","text":"因此我們還是建議，如果真的要入法，希望能參照現在行政院的設計，即以共同帳戶的方式\n由全民來共享經濟成長結果，而不是個別帳戶，這是兩者之間的差異。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:22:07.537037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:22:22.712963+08:00","text":"也就是不要有個人提撥\n的概念，由政府提撥進來之後整體操作，待十八歲視當時基金的獲益由大家均等分配，如此就\n不會有差異性，對於兒少的幫忙也是平等的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-24T12:22:22.712963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:22:37.888889+08:00","text":"再一次補充我們的意見給各位委員參考。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:22:37.888889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:22:53.064815+08:00","text":"謝謝石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:22:53.064815+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:23:08.240741+08:00","text":"各位列席的單位主管，主計、法務，還有人事行政總處，其他的部會、教育部\n有沒有要補充意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:23:08.240741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:23:23.416667+08:00","text":"沒有的話黨團發言完就要進行處理了，謝謝各位列席的官員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:23:23.416667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:23:38.592593+08:00","text":"哪一位黨團\n幹部要先發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:23:38.592593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:23:53.768519+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨團發言，國民黨團請準備，民進黨請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:23:53.768519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:24:08.944444+08:00","text":"主席、各位同仁，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:24:08.944444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:24:24.120370+08:00","text":"如果不喜歡一個制度，就是藉口一大堆、理由一大堆。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:24:24.120370+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:24:39.296296+08:00","text":"剛\n剛郭國文委員提到他比較崇尚個人帳戶，覺得我們的共同基金、類勞退的帳戶不可行，然後說\n台灣民眾黨所提出來的制度福國但不夠利民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:24:39.296296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:24:54.472222+08:00","text":"我覺得如果你有心要對抗一個制度，所有的理由\n都可以講得出來，即使是違背著自己的理念可能也都講得出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:24:54.472222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:25:09.648148+08:00","text":"他提到我們的制度「如果政府\n減少提撥」什麼的，為什麼政府會減少提撥？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:25:09.648148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:25:24.824074+08:00","text":"法條不是已經寫明了 666，該給付的、該撥付的當\n然就撥付啊，為什麼會減少提撥？","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:25:24.824074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:25:40+08:00","text":"難道是因為基金已經虧空了，以致於無法提撥嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:25:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-24T12:25:40.571429+08:00","text":"基金為什\n麼會虧空？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:25:41.071429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:25:47.071429+08:00","text":"是因為這個失能的政府操作不當導致基金虧空嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:25:47.371429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:25:54.514286+08:00","text":"民主進步黨政府就對自己操作基\n金的能力這麼沒有自信嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:25:54.814286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:26:03.671429+08:00","text":"都還沒有開始就在討論虧空的問題、基金虧空的問題，請問到底是\n誰的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:26:03.971429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:26:23.971429+08:00","text":"接著，民主進步黨一直在貧富差距這個議題上打轉，請問一下，剛剛已經說過了，為什麼衛\n福部所推動的制度可以有對存這件事，我們的對存這件事就叫做貧富差距的擴大？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:26:24.271429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:26:37.700000+08:00","text":"第二件事情\n，勞退也有自提，勞工也可以在 6%的範圍自提，為什麼當時在設計這個制度時沒有人在討論貧\n協 11\n富差距？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:26:38+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:26:44.571429+08:00","text":"是因為今天是對人不對事，所以才有一個差別的看法嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:26:44.871429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:26:48.585714+08:00","text":"這是我想問民進黨政府的問\n題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:26:48.885714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:26:57.742857+08:00","text":"除此之外，說起貧富差距，我們民眾黨就滿腔怒火，現在臺灣沒有貧富差距嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:26:58.042857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:27:16.614286+08:00","text":"臺灣的貧\n富差距長期以來存在，民主進步黨政府已經主政 11 年，他沒有解決貧富差距的問題、正視貧富\n差距的問題，今天敢拿貧富差距這四個字來這邊誇誇其談！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:27:16.914286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:27:26.914286+08:00","text":"如果我們的制度不好要打掉，你讓\n我們的兒少在 18 歲的時候沒有第一桶金會比較好嗎？","quality":0.086},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:27:27.214286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:27:33.500000+08:00","text":"沒有第一桶金讓他們去開創他們的人生會\n比較好嗎？","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:27:33.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:27:46.942857+08:00","text":"有這個制度，讓他們在 18 歲舉例至少有個 100 萬，如果父母對存的也許舉例來到\n200 萬，有 100 萬去拚搏難道會比現在零還差嗎？","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:27:47.242857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:28:13.242857+08:00","text":"而且今天就算沒有 TFA 這個對存制度，家境\n比較好的人本來就有比較好的空間，家境比較不好的人也許就在原點、也許就在零，你如果用\n貧富差距來當藉口，你會讓一身孑然、空空如也的少年在 18 歲時完全沒有翻身的機會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-24T12:28:13.542857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:28:15.828571+08:00","text":"以上說\n明，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:28:16.128571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:28:20.700000+08:00","text":"麻煩請民進黨團發言，國民黨團請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:28:21+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:28:32.714286+08:00","text":"謝謝院長還有各位協商代表，我看台灣民眾黨也說得「氣噗噗」的，反而今天我就比\n較敬佩傅崐萁總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:28:33.014286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:28:57.585714+08:00","text":"這個法案的目的如果是要照顧老百姓，以現在這三個法案來說，不管是執政黨、台灣民眾黨\n或國民黨這樣的主張，這個可以接受啦，但是你說提出這樣一個未來帳戶的法案就可以解決少\n子化，我跟你們說，機率零！","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:28:57.885714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:29:17.600000+08:00","text":"全世界都碰到這樣的一個問題啦，只要高度經濟發達的國家，沒\n有任何一個國家，只有一個，除了以色列因為宗教問題以外，不然人口替代率 2.1%，大家都沒\n有辦法達到啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:29:17.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:29:26.185714+08:00","text":"你去看現在人口正成長的國家，人口替代率超過 2.1%的都是哪些國家？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:29:26.485714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:29:44.200000+08:00","text":"差不多\n都在非洲那邊，什麼賴比瑞亞、奈及利亞啦，非洲一堆，全部都在非洲，真正唯一經濟發達、\n人口達到正成長的國家只有一個以色列，因為宗教的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:29:44.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:29:55.071429+08:00","text":"如果要減輕家庭的壓力，各黨提出\n的這個法案是有機會達到，但要解決少子化，機率零，零啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:29:55.371429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:30:01.085714+08:00","text":"我沒騙你們啦，少子化是全世界\n都遇到的問題啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:30:01.385714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:30:27.671429+08:00","text":"你說美國也好，美國人也不生啊，很多人移民去啦，移民國家、接收人口的\n地方人口也會增加啦，不然其他的，你去看人口正成長的地方，很多國家還在正成長，要達到\n人口替代率 2.1%的，幾乎除了非洲國家以外，只有一個以色列啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:30:27.971429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:30:57.114286+08:00","text":"所以我們再次提出來的是說，肯認各黨團為了要減輕整個，尤其是年輕家庭或者弱勢家庭的\n負擔，這個可以接受，但問題是提出臺灣兒少成長跟未來帳戶這樣一個條例，我就跟你們說過\n了，你們是在野要代行執政黨的義務，執政黨有提出這個方案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:30:57.414286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:31:39.414286+08:00","text":"對於傅總召的講法，我有一點要糾正的是說，這也不是叫做行政命令，任何政府的給付行政\n、福利行政，送到國會裡面來，這個預算案就是一個法律案啦，所以對於今天這個法案我是覺\n得比較遺憾，沒有去考量整個財政的支出，沒有指出這整個財政的來源，還有確實會加大整個\n的貧富差距，但你們卻沒有看到你們提出的法案會產生這樣一個衝擊，我是比較遺憾。","quality":0.068},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-24T12:31:39.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:31:42.285714+08:00","text":"民主進\n步黨表達反對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:31:42.585714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:31:45.728571+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:31:46.028571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:31:49.457143+08:00","text":"協 12\n接下來請國民黨團傅總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:31:49.757143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:32:22.614286+08:00","text":"今天謝謝院長還有各黨對於國家少子化問題這樣一個重大危機都提出近似相關的看法\n，可能在一些細節上，大家的看法有不一致，但是今天的討論都是希望我們立法過程當中有更\n多詳盡的內容，能夠為所有基層的鄉親百姓提供更大的服務跟更多的面向，我想我們都予以肯\n定。","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:32:22.914286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:33:09.485714+08:00","text":"國民黨的立場是儘快解決少子化的問題，我想各個法律的施行也會隨著時代的變遷而有各種\n不同的變化，今天最重要就是我們要起而行，要儘快把這樣一個條例通過並儘速施行，在上路\n以後，大家再視整體情況的發展、因應未來社會波動而有其他不同的民意、聲音出來的時候，\n我想國會各個政黨都很願意再一起來做局部的修正，看看是否有其他更適當的方法，我們也都\n可以討論，也都可以接受。","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-07-24T12:33:09.785714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:33:25.785714+08:00","text":"這個案子從今年 2 月到現在，確實已經討論了一段相當長的時間，\n我們想在今天儘快立法三讀通過，我想這才是眾多基層百姓共同的期待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:33:26.085714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:33:29.514286+08:00","text":"謝謝國民黨團傅總召的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:33:29.814286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:33:40.100000+08:00","text":"謝謝今天列席的非黨團幹部，包括林月琴委員、洪孟楷委員、洪毓祥委員還有劉書彬委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:33:40.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:33:47.542857+08:00","text":"我也要補充報告，主席都沒有實質發言過，除了程序問題之外。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:33:47.842857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:34:22.128571+08:00","text":"上個禮拜高雄美濃的老朋友\n來找我，講了一個數字讓我嚇一跳，2025 年高雄美濃客家鄉親出生數 141 位，死亡 591 位，所\n以我就趕快針對 2025年的情況去進行了解，全臺灣生了 10萬 7,800個孩子，死亡的臺灣人有二\n十萬零兩百多人，少子化的問題太嚴重、太嚴重了，在這邊跟行政部門把我心裡面的憂慮也一\n併報告出來。","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:34:22.428571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:34:34.142857+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團幹部、各位委員，大家願意集思廣益來解決少子化問題，起碼讓它能\n夠緩和，很讓人感佩啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:34:34.442857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:34:45.585714+08:00","text":"現在我做三點宣告：一、現在發言完畢，本案依各黨團程序上的共識，送院會依相關規定進\n行處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:34:45.885714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:34:57.028571+08:00","text":"二、接下來公路法部分，徵詢各黨團之後，在接下來院會開會之前，我們來針對程序\n問題進行溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:34:57.328571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:35:07.900000+08:00","text":"三、如果可以的話，11 點整院會要進行開會，請各黨團幹部通知自己黨團所屬\n的所有立法委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:35:08.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:35:10.485714+08:00","text":"現在這個協商散會。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-24T12:35:10.785714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-24T12:35:11.928571+08:00","text":"散會（10時 4分）","quality":0}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":40.08,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":3.78,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}