{"error":false,"id":["17620"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17620,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17620","日期":"2026-07-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-22-23","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第23次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":23,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第23次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-07-27T10:00:15+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-27T15:53:00+08:00","影片長度":"05:52:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d736c27b13f6e97370e1d510daad21019b5b204f4a37948b9bacfcb9031fea86d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-07-27T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(二) 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(三) 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(四) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(五) 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(七) 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n(八) 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n(九) 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n(十) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n(十一) 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n(十二) 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(十三) 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(十四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n(十五) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n(十六) 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n(十七) 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n(十八) 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n(十九) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n(二十) 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n(二十一) 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(二十二) 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(二十三) 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n(二十四) 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n(二十五) 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n(二十六) 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n(二十七) 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n(二十八) 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n(二十九) 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n(三十) 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n(三十一) 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(三十二) 委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(三十三) 委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n(三十四) 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n(三十五) 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(………因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"10:00:15 - 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第六條之一條文案"},{"start":2871.62,"end":2873.26,"text":"本案審查完畢"},{"start":2873.26,"end":2875.02,"text":"擬具審查報告連同"},{"start":2875.02,"end":2876.2200000000003,"text":"通過之決議一項"},{"start":2876.2200000000003,"end":2877.6600000000003,"text":"提報院會討論"},{"start":2877.6600000000003,"end":2879.1400000000003,"text":"通知教育部更正"},{"start":2879.1400000000003,"end":2882.34,"text":"不需交由黨團協商院會討論時"},{"start":2882.38,"end":2885.7000000000003,"text":"由羅昭吉委員庭委補充說明"},{"start":2885.7000000000003,"end":2887.06,"text":"通過決議一項"},{"start":2887.06,"end":2888.7400000000002,"text":"通過提案一項"},{"start":2888.7400000000002,"end":2891.26,"text":"經表決會通過附議案一案"},{"start":2891.26,"end":2892.26,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2896.22,"end":2896.7799999999997,"text":"好"},{"start":2897.47,"end":2898.87,"text":"我們先確認醫師路"},{"start":2898.87,"end":2900.87,"text":"請問上次會醫師路有錯過移動"},{"start":2905.72,"end":2906.56,"text":"請問上次會醫師路有錯過移動"},{"start":2909.01,"end":2911.17,"text":"主席因為我們今天9點的時候"},{"start":2911.17,"end":2913.25,"text":"開的是22次會"},{"start":2913.25,"end":2916.05,"text":"然後原先是下午的時候要開23次"},{"start":2916.05,"end":2917.4900000000002,"text":"這是兩次會"},{"start":2917.4900000000002,"end":2919.9300000000003,"text":"那現在10點不到50分"},{"start":2919.9300000000003,"end":2922.21,"text":"我們再開的是23次會"},{"start":2922.21,"end":2923.05,"text":"那醫院是在"},{"start":2923.05,"end":2924.25,"text":"那為什麼會做這樣改變"},{"start":2924.25,"end":2926.17,"text":"是因為剛剛在22次會的時候"},{"start":2926.17,"end":2929.8900000000003,"text":"有志強委員用臨時提案的方式"},{"start":2929.8900000000003,"end":2932.17,"text":"來去變更了這個議程"},{"start":2932.17,"end":2933.8500000000004,"text":"那我還是要講一下"},{"start":2933.8500000000004,"end":2936.01,"text":"這個因為按照我們委員會組織法"},{"start":2936.01,"end":2938.4900000000002,"text":"排這議程這個是輪值召委決定"},{"start":2938.49,"end":2940.6099999999997,"text":"所以基本上我們都是尊重召委"},{"start":2940.6099999999997,"end":2941.6899999999996,"text":"但是用這個"},{"start":2941.6899999999996,"end":2944.77,"text":"用臨時提案來去變更議程"},{"start":2944.77,"end":2947.6899999999996,"text":"這個真的是非常非常非常少會發生的事"},{"start":2947.6899999999996,"end":2949.33,"text":"非常非常少會發生的事"},{"start":2949.33,"end":2951.29,"text":"所以呢我還是必須要去提出"},{"start":2951.29,"end":2953.85,"text":"因為我希望說在我們教文會"},{"start":2953.85,"end":2956.1299999999997,"text":"其實可以盡量的去按照"},{"start":2956.1299999999997,"end":2959.45,"text":"很過往的這個很良好的理性討論的這些"},{"start":2959.45,"end":2961.1299999999997,"text":"這些慣例"},{"start":2961.1299999999997,"end":2962.33,"text":"那"},{"start":2963.44,"end":2964.32,"text":"用這樣子的方式"},{"start":2964.32,"end":2966,"text":"其實真的是相當的罕見"},{"start":2966,"end":2966.64,"text":"相當罕見"},{"start":2966.64,"end":2968.48,"text":"但是因為這個議事也已經通過"},{"start":2968.48,"end":2969.52,"text":"所以我們是尊重"},{"start":2969.52,"end":2971.32,"text":"那我提出來留下紀錄"},{"start":2972.87,"end":2975.87,"text":"好剛剛委員對於議程有意見"},{"start":2975.87,"end":2978.19,"text":"我們就是虛心指教"},{"start":2978.19,"end":2979.19,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":2979.19,"end":2980.95,"text":"那我們先處理議事錄"},{"start":2980.95,"end":2983.47,"text":"那所以議事錄有無錯誤跟遺漏"},{"start":2984.87,"end":2985.87,"text":"好沒有"},{"start":2985.87,"end":2986.67,"text":"議事錄確定"},{"start":2987.71,"end":2991.11,"text":"順便也回應一下我們吳佩儀委員"},{"start":2991.11,"end":2994.11,"text":"非常感謝您非常理性的一個訴求"},{"start":2994.11,"end":2995.27,"text":"本席聽到了"},{"start":2995.27,"end":2996.67,"text":"但也跟您特別報告"},{"start":2997.81,"end":3000.01,"text":"本席有特別去調查"},{"start":3000.01,"end":3000.61,"text":"過往"},{"start":3001.42,"end":3003.1,"text":"在立法院其他的委員會"},{"start":3003.71,"end":3005.27,"text":"有沒有一日兩事會"},{"start":3006.77,"end":3007.77,"text":"跟委員特別報告"},{"start":3007.77,"end":3009.77,"text":"經過調查是有的"},{"start":3009.77,"end":3013.05,"text":"那有特別去調出相關的一個會議紀錄"},{"start":3013.05,"end":3015.05,"text":"那會議如果委員有興趣的話"},{"start":3015.05,"end":3016.17,"text":"我們也可以提供"},{"start":3016.17,"end":3017.73,"text":"那一日兩事會不是問題"},{"start":3017.73,"end":3021.13,"text":"我是說用臨時提案的方式去辨證議程"},{"start":3021.13,"end":3022.29,"text":"這議事人員知道了"},{"start":3022.29,"end":3024.09,"text":"這相當相當罕見"},{"start":3024.09,"end":3025.77,"text":"那因為有委員臨時提案"},{"start":3025.77,"end":3026.41,"text":"作為召委"},{"start":3026.41,"end":3028.53,"text":"我們不能不處以臨時提案"},{"start":3028.53,"end":3031.69,"text":"也希望說我們配委員可以體諒"},{"start":3031.69,"end":3034.25,"text":"作為召委的一個"},{"start":3034.25,"end":3035.33,"text":"這樣子的一個角色"},{"start":3035.33,"end":3037.45,"text":"我有要執行的一個任務"},{"start":3037.45,"end":3038.5299999999997,"text":"那待會"},{"start":3038.5299999999997,"end":3039.41,"text":"發言委員待會"},{"start":3039.41,"end":3041.09,"text":"您對於營養午餐的關心"},{"start":3041.09,"end":3041.73,"text":"我們知道"},{"start":3041.73,"end":3042.85,"text":"待會一定會讓你充分發言"},{"start":3042.85,"end":3044.89,"text":"等我一下我把這個東西梳理完"},{"start":3044.89,"end":3045.49,"text":"首先"},{"start":3046.45,"end":3047.93,"text":"本次會議議程"},{"start":3047.93,"end":3051.0499999999997,"text":"繼續審查委員范雲等十六人"},{"start":3051.0499999999997,"end":3052.93,"text":"擬具學校公參法"},{"start":3052.93,"end":3053.93,"text":"草案事實案"},{"start":3054.51,"end":3056.9100000000003,"text":"委員廖偉祥等二十四人之提案"},{"start":3058.61,"end":3059.8500000000004,"text":"無不復議"},{"start":3059.85000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那請"},{"start":3228.62,"end":3230.38,"text":"最關心一樣午餐法的這個"},{"start":3230.38,"end":3231.7,"text":"范雲委員請發言"},{"start":3233.61,"end":3234.65,"text":"好 我今天"},{"start":3235.17,"end":3237.3300000000004,"text":"回來到這個教育文化委員會"},{"start":3237.4900000000002,"end":3239.65,"text":"那心情非常的沉重"},{"start":3239.77,"end":3241.3300000000004,"text":"我不知道為什麼教育文化委員會"},{"start":3241.3300000000004,"end":3243.4900000000002,"text":"今天會變成這個樣子"},{"start":3243.81,"end":3247.09,"text":"剛剛吳沛委員的質疑非常的有正當性"},{"start":3247.3700000000003,"end":3249.25,"text":"那為什麼一個早上的"},{"start":3249.61,"end":3251.09,"text":"早上的議程"},{"start":3251.17,"end":3254.29,"text":"把下午的議程用臨時變更的方式"},{"start":3254.99,"end":3257.0699999999997,"text":"那如果本來準備下午要來"},{"start":3257.0699999999997,"end":3259.43,"text":"好好的審查營養午餐法的人"},{"start":3259.5899999999997,"end":3261.39,"text":"他不知道你變更了議程"},{"start":3261.5099999999998,"end":3263.99,"text":"他沒有看到外面的公告怎麼辦呢"},{"start":3264.1899999999996,"end":3265.75,"text":"那他的立委權益"},{"start":3265.95,"end":3267.5099999999998,"text":"不就因此受傷了嗎"},{"start":3267.95,"end":3269.6699999999996,"text":"那我特別要講的事情是"},{"start":3269.83,"end":3271.1899999999996,"text":"我剛剛聽到"},{"start":3271.31,"end":3273.1899999999996,"text":"早上教育文化委員會"},{"start":3274.1899999999996,"end":3276.95,"text":"不僅不讓委員參與討論"},{"start":3277.31,"end":3279.39,"text":"就是強硬要停止討論"},{"start":3279.5899999999997,"end":3280.91,"text":"用表決的方式"},{"start":3281.0299999999997,"end":3282.23,"text":"而我現在看到"},{"start":3282.35,"end":3283.99,"text":"就是表決的方式"},{"start":3284.39,"end":3286.5099999999998,"text":"是贊成六人反對零人"},{"start":3286.5099999999998,"end":3288.2299999999996,"text":"這明顯的就是"},{"start":3288.35,"end":3290.0699999999997,"text":"有非常多的委員"},{"start":3290.1499999999996,"end":3291.87,"text":"拒絕參與這個投票"},{"start":3292.55,"end":3293.67,"text":"那我真的覺得"},{"start":3293.75,"end":3295.07,"text":"教育文化委員會"},{"start":3295.15,"end":3298.03,"text":"為什麼在羅庭偉招委的主導下"},{"start":3298.11,"end":3299.55,"text":"會發生這樣的事情"},{"start":3300.03,"end":3302.4700000000003,"text":"我想我們在場就是陳秀寶委員"},{"start":3302.55,"end":3304.3900000000003,"text":"跟我跟柯志恩委員"},{"start":3304.4700000000003,"end":3306.2700000000004,"text":"我們都經歷過不只一屆的"},{"start":3306.2700000000004,"end":3307.4300000000003,"text":"教育文化委員會"},{"start":3307.8700000000003,"end":3310.51,"text":"過去四年其實教育文化委員會"},{"start":3310.63,"end":3312.9900000000002,"text":"不管誰是多數或少數"},{"start":3313.07,"end":3314.71,"text":"都是好好討論"},{"start":3314.7900000000004,"end":3316.11,"text":"彼此說服"},{"start":3316.2700000000004,"end":3319.19,"text":"幾乎沒有在動用表決的"},{"start":3319.71,"end":3320.9900000000002,"text":"唯一的一次表決"},{"start":3321.0299999999997,"end":3323.6699999999996,"text":"我記得大家也辯論了非常久"},{"start":3323.87,"end":3325.2299999999996,"text":"才有一次表決"},{"start":3325.2299999999996,"end":3327.1099999999997,"text":"四年來只有一次表決"},{"start":3327.31,"end":3328.6299999999997,"text":"今天一個早上"},{"start":3328.79,"end":3330.27,"text":"就不只表決兩次"},{"start":3330.43,"end":3331.39,"text":"針對提案"},{"start":3331.5499999999997,"end":3332.31,"text":"表決了之後"},{"start":3332.31,"end":3334.6299999999997,"text":"還做一個副議案的政治動作"},{"start":3334.75,"end":3336.5499999999997,"text":"然後剛剛我聽到的是"},{"start":3336.6299999999997,"end":3338.7099999999996,"text":"還有停止討論用表決"},{"start":3338.79,"end":3340.39,"text":"那我們的很多委員"},{"start":3340.47,"end":3343.5499999999997,"text":"因為發現沒有辦法在場討論"},{"start":3343.6699999999996,"end":3345.7099999999996,"text":"所以用離席的方式抗議"},{"start":3345.91,"end":3347.39,"text":"我想問羅庭偉招委"},{"start":3347.5099999999998,"end":3350.39,"text":"為什麼你主持下的教育文化委員會"},{"start":3350.47,"end":3353.35,"text":"變成沒有辦法做全國的"},{"start":3353.35,"end":3355.1099999999997,"text":"老師學生的典範"},{"start":3355.19,"end":3357.0699999999997,"text":"自己都不能好好討論事情"},{"start":3357.1099999999997,"end":3358.91,"text":"不能讓不同的聲音出來"},{"start":3358.91,"end":3361.35,"text":"就動不動就用動政治表決"},{"start":3361.47,"end":3362.6299999999997,"text":"那這樣的方式"},{"start":3362.6299999999997,"end":3365.75,"text":"我們怎麼樣做全國師生的一個"},{"start":3366.23,"end":3367.5899999999997,"text":"就是不要講"},{"start":3367.99,"end":3370.0299999999997,"text":"範例了簡直就是惡例"},{"start":3370.27,"end":3372.5499999999997,"text":"就不同的意見不能好好討論"},{"start":3372.6299999999997,"end":3376.31,"text":"就是在做一種政治上的表決"},{"start":3376.47,"end":3378.1099999999997,"text":"為什麼過去教育文化委員會"},{"start":3378.1099999999997,"end":3379.5899999999997,"text":"有很多時候有不同的意見"},{"start":3379.9500000000003,"end":3381.15,"text":"我們都能好好討論"},{"start":3381.15,"end":3382.9900000000002,"text":"不管是民進黨當召委"},{"start":3382.9900000000002,"end":3385.9900000000002,"text":"還是反對黨當召委"},{"start":3386.19,"end":3387.83,"text":"幾乎都不用表決的"},{"start":3387.9900000000002,"end":3390.23,"text":"那為什麼你羅庭偉擔任召委"},{"start":3390.23,"end":3393.67,"text":"就一天就是排個議程還可以臨時變動"},{"start":3393.67,"end":3395.4300000000003,"text":"不尊重委員的權益"},{"start":3395.55,"end":3396.63,"text":"要表決的時候"},{"start":3396.63,"end":3398.31,"text":"委員表示不同的意見"},{"start":3398.31,"end":3400.11,"text":"你還禁止人家討論"},{"start":3400.19,"end":3401.83,"text":"那羅庭偉你這樣子"},{"start":3401.83,"end":3404.19,"text":"你能夠當教育文化委員會的召委嗎"},{"start":3404.19,"end":3406.27,"text":"我質疑你根本就沒有資格"},{"start":3406.27,"end":3408.15,"text":"擔任教育文化委員會的委員"},{"start":3408.15,"end":3409.15,"text":"甚至是召委"},{"st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:3568.3199999999997,"end":3569.3199999999997,"text":"我們現在開會是不是"},{"start":3569.3199999999997,"end":3570.3199999999997,"text":"比如說有委員發言"},{"start":3570.3199999999997,"end":3571.3199999999997,"text":"然後主席回應"},{"start":3571.3199999999997,"end":3572.3199999999997,"text":"大家就尊重彼此"},{"start":3572.3199999999997,"end":3574.3199999999997,"text":"不要說主席在講話的時候"},{"start":3574.3199999999997,"end":3575.3199999999997,"text":"又在下面講"},{"start":3575.3199999999997,"end":3576.3199999999997,"text":"那這樣沒完沒了"},{"start":3576.3199999999997,"end":3577.3199999999997,"text":"這邊又不是菜市場"},{"start":3577.3199999999997,"end":3578.3199999999997,"text":"主席濫用他的權力"},{"start":3578.3199999999997,"end":3579.3199999999997,"text":"在傷害不在場的委員"},{"start":3579.3199999999997,"end":3580.3199999999997,"text":"沒有啊"},{"start":3580.3199999999997,"end":3581.3199999999997,"text":"你剛剛講話"},{"start":3581.3199999999997,"end":3582.3199999999997,"text":"他回應你"},{"start":3582.3199999999997,"end":3583.3199999999997,"text":"你一直插話"},{"start":3583.3199999999997,"end":3584.3199999999997,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":3584.3199999999997,"end":3585.3199999999997,"text":"你聽不到他講什麼"},{"start":3585.3199999999997,"end":3587.3199999999997,"text":"我聽不到他講什麼"},{"start":3587.3199999999997,"end":3589.3199999999997,"text":"你聽他一直在那邊發話叫"},{"start":3589.3199999999997,"end":3590.3199999999997,"text":"你尊重"},{"start":3590.3199999999997,"end":3591.3199999999997,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":3591.3199999999997,"end":3593.3199999999997,"text":"請你不要發言"},{"start":3593.3199999999997,"end":3596.3199999999997,"text":"你已經打擾其他委員的發言了"},{"start":3596.52,"end":3597.52,"text":"對啦"},{"start":3597.52,"end":3598.52,"text":"我第一個"},{"start":3598.52,"end":3599.52,"text":"大家發言"},{"start":3599.52,"end":3600.52,"text":"另外就不要講話"},{"start":3600.52,"end":3601.52,"text":"就像你一開始講話的時候"},{"start":3601.52,"end":3602.52,"text":"我那時候也聽了覺得"},{"start":3602.52,"end":3603.52,"text":"很莫名其妙"},{"start":3603.52,"end":3604.52,"text":"但我們也都沒有打岔你"},{"start":3605.95,"end":3606.95,"text":"這跟主不主席無關"},{"start":3606.95,"end":3608.95,"text":"你剛剛發言沒有人打岔你"},{"start":3608.95,"end":3609.95,"text":"第二個"},{"start":3609.95,"end":3611.95,"text":"你講完之後他做簡單回應"},{"start":3611.95,"end":3612.95,"text":"你就下面一直講"},{"start":3612.95,"end":3613.95,"text":"那我們要聽他講話"},{"start":3613.95,"end":3614.95,"text":"還是聽你講話"},{"start":3615.14,"end":3617.14,"text":"我們這邊大家就是彼此尊重"},{"start":3617.14,"end":3618.14,"text":"這是第一件事情"},{"start":3619.56,"end":3620.56,"text":"有啊"},{"start":3620.56,"end":3621.56,"text":"不是嘛"},{"start":3621.56,"end":3622.56,"text":"你沒有尊重他嘛"},{"start":3622.56,"end":3623.56,"text":"那以後你講話"},{"start":3623.56,"end":3624.56,"text":"我們一直打岔你"},{"start":3624.56,"end":3625.56,"text":"你講得下去嗎"},{"start":3628.0499999999997,"end":3629.0499999999997,"text":"不是啊"},{"start":3629.0499999999997,"end":3630.0499999999997,"text":"那你等一下你可以再舉手嘛"},{"start":3630.0499999999997,"end":3632.0499999999997,"text":"你不要在人家講話的時候插嘴嘛"},{"start":3632.0499999999997,"end":3634.0499999999997,"text":"你怎麼那麼喜歡插嘴咧"},{"start":3634.0499999999997,"end":3636.0499999999997,"text":"國會外交這東西"},{"start":3636.0499999999997,"end":3637.0499999999997,"text":"上一次羅廷瑋"},{"start":3637.0499999999997,"end":3639.0499999999997,"text":"他們排一個營養午餐的考察"},{"start":3639.0499999999997,"end":3641.0499999999997,"text":"那也可以講這是國會外交啊"},{"start":3641.0499999999997,"end":3643.0499999999997,"text":"我還沒有講完"},{"start":3643.0499999999997,"end":3644.0499999999997,"text":"外營委員"},{"start":3644.0499999999997,"end":3645.0499999999997,"text":"對不起"},{"start":3645.0499999999997,"end":3646.0499999999997,"text":"我在這邊宣告"},{"start":3646.0499999999997,"end":3647.0499999999997,"text":"現階段"},{"start":3647.0499999999997,"end":3650.0499999999997,"text":"如果在遇到有委員繼續插嘴"},{"start":3650.0499999999997,"end":3652.0499999999997,"text":"干擾會議進行"},{"start":3652.0499999999997,"end":3654.0499999999997,"text":"以及其他的委員發言的話"},{"start":3654.0499999999997,"end":3655.0499999999997,"text":"那待會呢"},{"start":3655.0499999999997,"end":3657.0499999999997,"text":"我們可能麥克風統一放在前面"},{"start":3657.05,"end":3658.05,"text":"要發言的時候再來拿"},{"start":3658.9,"end":3659.9,"text":"好那我繼續講"},{"start":3659.9,"end":3660.9,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3660.9,"end":3661.9,"text":"他上次"},{"start":3661.9,"end":3663.9,"text":"我正要講他麥克風拿起來"},{"start":3665.69,"end":3666.69,"text":"我已經宣告了"},{"start":3666.69,"end":3667.69,"text":"他上一次"},{"start":3667.69,"end":3668.69,"text":"如果你要這樣子的話不好意思"},{"start":3668.69,"end":3669.69,"text":"我們就放在前面"},{"start":3669.69,"end":3673.69,"text":"羅廷瑋上一次營養午餐考察"},{"start":3673.69,"end":3674.69,"text":"你也可以講是國會外交啊"},{"start":3674.69,"end":3676.69,"text":"國會議員去跟日本做交流"},{"start":3676.69,"end":3677.69,"text":"喔"},{"start":3677.69,"end":3679.69,"text":"那你們就罵他清水小偷"},{"start":3680.81,"end":3681.81,"text":"這是綠能你不能喔"},{"start":3681.81,"end":3683.81,"text":"你們的人去看棒球就國會外交"},{"start":3684.96,"end":3686.96,"text":"為什麼標準都是民進黨在訂啊"},{"start":3686.96,"end":3688.96,"text":"民進黨雙標怎麼嚴重到這種地步啊"},{"start":3689.33,"end":3690.33,"text":"第二個喔"},{"start":3690.33,"end":3691.33,"text":"早上的會"},{"start":3691.33,"end":3692.33,"text":"發言委員你也沒有在現場嘛"},{"start":3692.33,"end":3694.33,"text":"你如果有意見早上可以來表達"},{"start":3694.33,"end":3695.33,"text":"你沒有表達"},{"start":3695.33,"end":3697.33,"text":"然後現在我們已經進行到第二個會了"},{"start":3697.33,"end":3698.33,"text":"營養午餐你又去扯"},{"start":3698.33,"end":3699.33,"text":"早上的事情"},{"start":3699.33,"end":3700.33,"text":"我也不知道為什麼"},{"start":3700.33,"end":3701.33,"text":"那這樣都扯不完"},{"start":3701.33,"end":3702.33,"text":"那前天事要不要扯一下"},{"start":3702.33,"end":3704.33,"text":"大前天上個禮拜事宜大家都在扯嘛"},{"start":3704.33,"end":3706.33,"text":"現在不就在講營養午餐嗎"},{"start":3706.33,"end":3707.33,"text":"而且校事會議"},{"start":3707.33,"end":3709.33,"text":"我覺得要講的話啦"},{"start":3709.33,"end":3711.33,"text":"校事會議已經往前一步了"},{"start":3711.33,"end":3712.33,"text":"兩個禮拜"},{"start":3712.33,"end":3713.33,"text":"兩個月"},{"start":3713.33,"end":3714.33,"text":"教育部又會送一個新的"},{"start":3714.33,"end":3715.33,"text":"更精進的"},{"start":3715.33,"end":3716.33,"text":"辦法過來"},{"start":3716.33,"end":3717.33,"text":"我覺得很好啊"},{"start":3717.33,"end":3721.33,"text":"我不懂為什麼這個是對老師跟學生的羞辱耶"},{"start":3721.8,"end":3722.8,"text":"我覺得你這樣子講"},{"start":3722.8,"end":3724.8,"text":"才是羞辱老師跟學生吧"},{"start":3725.46,"end":3727.46,"text":"當初在訂校事會議"},{"start":3727.46,"end":3730.46,"text":"那什麼跟發言委員很好的人本基金會"},{"start":3731.13,"end":3732.13,"text":"就抱著仇視心態啊"},{"start":3732.13,"end":3734.13,"text":"執行長講什麼"},{"start":3734.13,"end":3735.13,"text":"執行長講說"},{"start":3735.13,"end":3737.13,"text":"哎呀老師你被濫訴"},{"start":3737.13,"end":3740.13,"text":"最後如果被調查是有冤屈"},{"start":3740.13,"end":3742.13,"text":"也不會對你帶來任何實質的傷害"},{"start":3743.38,"end":3744.38,"text":"他這樣跟老師講耶"},{"start":3744.38,"end":3746.38,"text":"結果老師被調查了這麼久"},{"start":3746.38,"end":3748.38,"text":"被扒三層皮"},{"start":3748.38,"end":3749.38,"text":"受到很多冤屈"},{"start":3749.38,"end":3751.38,"text":"有的老師還去看身心科"},{"start":3751.38,"end":3753.38,"text":"結果人本基金會"},{"start":3753.38,"end":3755.38,"text":"執行長說"},{"start":3755.38,"end":3757.38,"text":"老師你也沒什麼實質的傷害啊"},{"start":3757.38,"end":3761.38,"text":"你也不用去改變原本的私生關係啊"},{"start":3761.38,"end":3763.38,"text":"站著講話不腰疼啊"},{"start":3763.9,"end":3765.9,"text":"這樣子仇視心態的基金會"},{"start":3765.9,"end":3767.9,"text":"在主導我們教育的政策"},{"start":3768.64,"end":3769.64,"text":"我不能接受啦"},{"start":3769.64,"end":3772.64,"text":"我覺得早上我非常感激召委"},{"start":3772.64,"end":3773.64,"text":"排這樣的一個會"},{"start":3773.64,"end":3776.64,"text":"而且我們校事會議的改革往前一步"},{"start":3777.28,"end":3780.28,"text":"教育部兩個月會送一個更新的版本過來嘛"},{"start":3780.28,"end":3782.28,"text":"這只會越來越好啦"},{"start":3782.28,"end":3784.28,"text":"這過程當中我們也會持續監督"},{"start":3784.28,"end":3786.28,"text":"我不知道為什麼要去扯這個東西"},{"start":3786.28,"end":3789.28,"text":"我不知道發言人是不想要下次會議改革嗎"},{"start":3789.28,"end":3790.28,"text":"還是怎麼樣"},{"start":3790.7,"end":3792.7,"text":"這是簡單回應"},{"start":3792.7,"end":3795.7,"text":"我想說這個會議我們就討論營養午餐就好了"},{"start":3795.7,"end":3798.7,"text":"那我們接下來請羅志祥委員發言"},{"start":3802.12,"end":3806.12,"text":"剛剛范語委員也有點到本人的提案"},{"start":3806.12,"end":3808.12,"text":"但在這之前"},{"start":3808.12,"end":3813.12,"text":"我真的是還是給我們范語委員一點小小的提醒"},{"start":3813.78,"end":3815.78,"text":"一場教文的傳統"},{"start":3815.78,"end":3818.78,"text":"我們今天早上雖然大家意見不相同"},{"start":3818.78,"end":3822.78,"text":"但是今天有委員拿著麥克風講話的時候"},{"start":3822.78,"end":3825.78,"text":"就不會有一些沒有禮貌的委員"},{"start":3825.78,"end":3827.78,"text":"拿麥克風出來插嘴啦"},{"start":3827.78,"end":3829.78,"text":"你剛剛講的那些意見"},{"start":3829.78,"end":3831.78,"text":"你以為我們在幾下聽的認同嗎"},{"start":3831.78,"end":3833.78,"text":"也不認同啊"},{"start":3834.45,"end":3836.45,"text":"請問有人插你的嘴嗎"},{"start":3836.45,"end":3838.45,"text":"完全沒有啊"},{"start":3838.45,"end":3840.45,"text":"主席講話"},{"start":3840.45,"end":3842.45,"text":"基本上也是回應你的問題啊"},{"start":3843.6,"end":3847.6,"text":"所以最基本教文委員對彼此的尊重"},{"start":3847.6,"end":3849.6,"text":"請你不要來這裡破壞"},{"start":3849.6,"end":3851.6,"text":"高業元之委員發言"},{"start":3851.6,"end":3853.6,"text":"你也要插嘴"},{"start":3853.4,"end":3855.4,"text":"我不知道為什麼今天"},{"start":3855.4,"end":3859.4,"text":"你還自稱你是教文的委員會的委員"},{"start":3859.4,"end":3861.4,"text":"那別人委員發言都不用尊重了"},{"start":3861.96,"end":3863.96,"text":"第二個我要講的是"},{"start":3863.96,"end":3865.96,"text":"發言委員可能因為早上沒有來"},{"start":3865.96,"end":3867.96,"text":"他早上沒有來關心消失會議"},{"start":3867.96,"end":3871.96,"text":"下午突然發現消失會議很重要來關心"},{"start":3871.96,"end":3873.96,"text":"早上議程過了"},{"start":3873.96,"end":3875.96,"text":"所以你不知道"},{"start":3875.96,"end":3877.96,"text":"我們沒有罵吳思瑤跟陳培渝是薪水小偷"},{"start":3877.96,"end":3879.96,"text":"沒有啊"},{"start":3879.96,"end":3881.96,"text":"是吳思瑤罵吳思瑤是薪水小偷"},{"start":3881.96,"end":3883.96,"text":"你都搞不清楚"},{"start":3883.96,"end":3885.96,"text":"是陳培渝罵陳培渝是薪水小偷"},{"start":3885.96,"end":3887.96,"text":"第一個罵人家出國是薪水小偷"},{"start":3887.96,"end":3889.96,"text":"是吳思瑤"},{"start":3890.76,"end":3892.76,"text":"照你的邏輯"},{"start":3892.76,"end":3894.76,"text":"他們出去看球賽叫做國會外交"},{"start":3894.76,"end":3896.76,"text":"羅庭威委員"},{"start":3896.76,"end":3898.76,"text":"為了營養午餐專法"},{"start":3898.76,"end":3900.76,"text":"去考察"},{"start":3900.76,"end":3902.76,"text":"去向日本取經"},{"start":3902.76,"end":3904.76,"text":"去知道日本這個營養午餐專法"},{"start":3904.76,"end":3906.76,"text":"最早實施的國家"},{"start":3906.76,"end":3908.76,"text":"怎麼推動最優質的營養午餐"},{"start":3908.76,"end":3910.76,"text":"我不知道發言委員"},{"start":3910.76,"end":3912.76,"text":"那個記者會你有沒有出席啊"},{"start":3915.23,"end":3917.23,"text":"你們的民進黨的委員"},{"start":3917.23,"end":3919.23,"text":"把羅庭威罵的什麼"},{"start":3919.23,"end":3921.23,"text":"豬狗不如啊薪水小偷啊"},{"start":3921.23,"end":3923.23,"text":"怎麼可以去日本去考察營養午餐啊"},{"start":3923.23,"end":3925.23,"text":"我們不是拿"},{"start":3925.23,"end":3927.23,"text":"羅志強、羅庭威跟葉元智的標準"},{"start":3927.23,"end":3929.23,"text":"說吳思瑤是薪水小偷"},{"start":3929.23,"end":3931.23,"text":"我講的很簡單啊"},{"start":3931.23,"end":3933.23,"text":"你吳思瑤能夠把別人"},{"start":3933.23,"end":3935.23,"text":"出國考察罵成薪水小偷"},{"start":3935.23,"end":3937.23,"text":"那你今天去看棒球"},{"start":3937.23,"end":3939.23,"text":"陪沈柏楊拼到美國拼選舉"},{"start":3939.23,"end":3941.23,"text":"難道別人"},{"start":3941.23,"end":3943.23,"text":"就不能說你是薪水小偷嗎"},{"start":3943.97,"end":3945.97,"text":"有這麼雙標嗎"},{"start":3945.97,"end":3947.97,"text":"我還是特別在講"},{"start":3947.97,"end":3949.97,"text":"罵吳思瑤是薪水小偷的"},{"start":3949.97,"end":3951.97,"text":"不是羅庭威、不是葉元智、不是羅志強"},{"start":3951.97,"end":3953.97,"text":"是吳思瑤自己啊"},{"start":3955.77,"end":3957.77,"text":"所以最後還是要回頭一句話啦"},{"start":3959.02,"end":3961.02,"text":"今天早上沒有來參加會議喔"},{"start":3962.77,"end":3964.77,"text":"我覺得在這邊喔"},{"start":3964.77,"end":3966.77,"text":"一直在提之前的東西"},{"start":3966.77,"end":3968.77,"text":"我覺得是很奇怪啦"},{"start":3968.77,"end":3970.77,"text":"那再來講說真的"},{"start":3970.06,"end":3972.06,"text":"這兩次的會議上午下午會議"},{"start":3972.06,"end":3975.06,"text":"既然上午我們已經把議程處理完了"},{"start":3975.06,"end":3977.06,"text":"也是讓官員們讓委員們"},{"start":3977.06,"end":3979.06,"text":"有更多時間討論"},{"start":3979.06,"end":3982.06,"text":"所以不是臨時新增了什麼提案啊"},{"start":3982.06,"end":3985.06,"text":"只是希望能夠提前一點開會"},{"start":3985.06,"end":3987.06,"text":"怎麼了薪水小偷很辛苦"},{"start":3987.06,"end":3989.06,"text":"提前開會也很辛苦啊"},{"start":3989.06,"end":3991.06,"text":"連提前開會都覺得做不到"},{"start":3991.06,"end":3993.06,"text":"今天就是要沈淫洋五川法"},{"start":3993.06,"end":3995.06,"text":"跟孝世會議大家"},{"start":3995.06,"end":3997.06,"text":"教文委員不就是來這裡"},{"start":3997.06,"end":3998.06,"text":"來出席這個討論"},{"start":3998.06,"end":4000.06,"text":"官員出席這個討論啊"},{"start":4000.06,"end":4002.06,"text":"那我今天我們早上的會"},{"start":4002.06,"end":4004.06,"text":"比較結束比較早"},{"start":4004.06,"end":4006.06,"text":"所以我也體恤大家"},{"start":4006.06,"end":4008.06,"text":"我覺得大家我們會去提前一點"},{"start":4008.06,"end":4010.06,"text":"這個又無限上綱啊"},{"start":4010.88,"end":4012.88,"text":"多一點時間討論有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":4012.88,"end":4014.88,"text":"最後還是要講一件事情"},{"start":4014.88,"end":4016.88,"text":"抱歉啊我還是要在這邊"},{"start":4016.88,"end":4019.88,"text":"鄭重的感謝吳思堯跟陳培渝"},{"start":4019.88,"end":4021.88,"text":"當了他們口中的薪水小偷"},{"start":4021.88,"end":4023.88,"text":"吳思堯陳培渝沒有當薪水小偷"},{"start":4023.88,"end":4025.88,"text":"跑到國外去看球賽"},{"start":4025.88,"end":4027.88,"text":"今天孝世會議改革就停在這裡"},{"start":4027.88,"end":4029.88,"text":"動不了啦"},{"start":4030.32,"end":4032.32,"text":"國庭委之前排孝世會議的審查"},{"start":4032.32,"end":4034.32,"text":"辦法審查"},{"start":4034.74,"end":4035.74,"text":"就是吳思堯跟陳培渝"},{"start":4035.74,"end":4037.74,"text":"在的時候把他擋掉的啊"},{"start":4037.74,"end":4039.74,"text":"不讓這改革繼續走下去啊"},{"start":4039.74,"end":4041.74,"text":"所以我還是肯定"},{"start":4041.74,"end":4044.74,"text":"吳思堯口中的薪水小偷吳思堯"},{"start":4044.74,"end":4046.74,"text":"今天到美國去看球賽"},{"start":4046.74,"end":4049.74,"text":"讓我們的孝世會議改革可以往前走"},{"start":4049.74,"end":4051.74,"text":"讓老師們可以鬆一口氣"},{"start":4051.74,"end":4053.74,"text":"不用再被民進黨這樣的方式"},{"start":4053.74,"end":4055.74,"text":"來拖延霸凌謝謝"},{"start":4057.07,"end":4059.07,"text":"好"},{"start":4059.07,"end":4061.07,"text":"剛剛郭一群委員有先舉手"},{"start":4061.07,"end":4063.07,"text":"不好意思我待會要先給他"},{"start":4063.07,"end":4065.07,"text":"待會我要先回應一下羅志祥委員"},{"start":4065.07,"end":4067.07,"text":"非常感謝羅志祥委員來還原事實"},{"start":4067.07,"end":4069.07,"text":"我想有很多的往例"},{"start":4069.74,"end":4073.74,"text":"大家都希望能夠依照教育文化委員會的往例繼續進行"},{"start":4073.74,"end":4075.74,"text":"但是對不起"},{"start":4075.74,"end":4077.74,"text":"既然我辦了"},{"start":4076.93,"end":4078.93,"text":"營養午餐的考察"},{"start":4078.93,"end":4082.93,"text":"民進黨要用最高標準兩套標準來說我是薪水小偷"},{"start":4084.27,"end":4087.27,"text":"那今天用民進黨的魔法"},{"start":4087.27,"end":4089.27,"text":"我要還給民進黨"},{"start":4089.27,"end":4092.27,"text":"也希望民進黨不要用兩套標準"},{"start":4092.27,"end":4094.27,"text":"別人出國考察"},{"start":4094.27,"end":4097.27,"text":"營養午餐法說是薪水小偷"},{"start":4097.27,"end":4099.27,"text":"自己出國考察"},{"start":4099.85,"end":4101.85,"text":"幫助沈柏楊成立後援會"},{"start":4101.85,"end":4103.85,"text":"看棒球"},{"start":4104.74,"end":4106.74,"text":"就說是國會外交"},{"start":4106.71,"end":4108.71,"text":"我想"},{"start":4107.76,"end":4109.76,"text":"人民自有公道"},{"start":4109.76,"end":4111.76,"text":"心中自有一把尺"},{"start":4110.83,"end":4112.83,"text":"接著我們請國務卿委員發言"},{"start":4113.68,"end":4115.68,"text":"好"},{"start":4116.86,"end":4118.86,"text":"我要再一次的"},{"start":4118.86,"end":4120.86,"text":"因為我想這個透過麥克風"},{"start":4120.86,"end":4122.86,"text":"校事會議其實我真的是第一位"},{"start":4122.86,"end":4126.86,"text":"在我們的委員會提出質詢的委員"},{"start":4126.86,"end":4129.86,"text":"那我也多次的幫很多的老師發聲"},{"start":4129.86,"end":4132.86,"text":"但是我一定要說明的"},{"start":4132.86,"end":4134.86,"text":"就是包含過去我們所講的"},{"start":4134.86,"end":4135.86,"text":"就是案件分流"},{"start":4135.86,"end":4138.86,"text":"這也是我給這個教育部的一些意見"},{"start":4138.86,"end":4140.86,"text":"那當然今天早上就是剛剛"},{"start":4140.86,"end":4142.86,"text":"大概一個多小時之前"},{"start":4142.86,"end":4144.86,"text":"發生的這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":4144.86,"end":4146.86,"text":"其實我要再次的強調"},{"start":4146.86,"end":4150.86,"text":"當然召委你有依法可以確實調整這個會議的一個時間"},{"start":4150.86,"end":4152.86,"text":"這個沒有錯"},{"start":4152.86,"end":4154.86,"text":"但是程序上是不是也應該要"},{"start":4154.86,"end":4156.86,"text":"有一個比較更正式的"},{"start":4156.86,"end":4158.86,"text":"變更跟通知"},{"start":4158.86,"end":4160.86,"text":"那今天的整個所有整天的一個議程是"},{"start":4160.86,"end":4164.86,"text":"上個禮拜五超過五點過後"},{"start":4164.86,"end":4166.86,"text":"我們所有的委員才收到"},{"start":4166.86,"end":4168.86,"text":"甚至有些委員都是"},{"start":4168.86,"end":4170.86,"text":"在六點之後才收到"},{"start":4170.86,"end":4173.86,"text":"那這個其實我真的需要"},{"start":4173.86,"end":4175.86,"text":"跟召委建議一下"},{"start":4175.86,"end":4177.86,"text":"是不是能夠給予行政部門"},{"start":4177.86,"end":4179.86,"text":"或者是我們的立法院全體的委員"},{"start":4179.86,"end":4181.86,"text":"能夠有一個合理的時間"},{"start":4181.86,"end":4183.86,"text":"準備跟安排"},{"start":4183.86,"end":4187.86,"text":"那不是用這種臨時變更議程的一個狀況"},{"start":4187.86,"end":4189.86,"text":"那我相信這樣子的一個臨時變更議程"},{"start":4189.86,"end":4191.86,"text":"其實是不利於我們整個所有"},{"start":4191.86,"end":4194.86,"text":"在會議當中的一個法案的充分討論"},{"start":4194.86,"end":4197.86,"text":"這個是我誠心的建議啦"},{"start":4197.86,"end":4199.86,"text":"那基於所謂的剛剛范雲委員"},{"start":4199.86,"end":4202.86,"text":"我相信他是非常關心教育文化委員會"},{"start":4202.86,"end":4204.86,"text":"發生任何事情的委員"},{"start":4204.86,"end":4206.86,"text":"那他自己本身也在教育文化"},{"start":4208.49,"end":4212.49,"text":"這個這一塊其實耕耘了也非常非常久喔"},{"start":4212.49,"end":4214.49,"text":"那過往其實"},{"start":4214.49,"end":4216.49,"text":"雖然我是算新科立委"},{"start":4216.49,"end":4219.49,"text":"但是過往我們都在教育文化委員會當中"},{"start":4219.49,"end":4221.49,"text":"我們都可以看到往例喔"},{"start":4221.49,"end":4223.49,"text":"其實大家都可以充分的討論"},{"start":4223.49,"end":4226.49,"text":"今天非常的遺憾在校事會議的那件事情上"},{"start":4226.49,"end":4228.49,"text":"其實我們要二輪的來發言"},{"start":4228.49,"end":4230.49,"text":"甚至我們要請教育部有來"},{"start":4230.49,"end":4234.49,"text":"到底針對校事會議哪一個部分需要更精進"},{"start":4234.49,"end":4235.49,"text":"需要更改進"},{"start":4235.49,"end":4237.49,"text":"我們讓現場的老師不再恐慌"},{"start":4237.49,"end":4239.49,"text":"我們讓校園當中的學生"},{"start":4239.49,"end":4243.49,"text":"也不再備受所謂的權力不對等的一個對待"},{"start":4243.49,"end":4245.49,"text":"還是有一些所謂的不適任的老師"},{"start":4245.49,"end":4247.49,"text":"我們又應該要怎麼樣來解決"},{"start":4247.49,"end":4249.49,"text":"這個所謂的退場的一個問題"},{"start":4249.49,"end":4251.49,"text":"會不會退回之後又回到"},{"start":4251.49,"end":4253.49,"text":"我們之前所說的"},{"start":4253.49,"end":4255.49,"text":"匿名檢舉又來了"},{"start":4255.49,"end":4256.49,"text":"如果退回"},{"start":4256.49,"end":4257.49,"text":"然後接著下來"},{"start":4257.49,"end":4260.49,"text":"我們應該要怎麼樣往更好的方向去走"},{"start":4260.49,"end":4263.49,"text":"這個才是我們真正的一個目的喔"},{"start":4263.49,"end":4266.49,"text":"那我想今天早上所發生任何的事情"},{"start":4266.49,"end":4268.49,"text":"所以我在這裡表達深切的遺憾"},{"start":4268.49,"end":4270.49,"text":"那同時我還是要提醒召委"},{"start":4270.49,"end":4274.49,"text":"雖然您到8月底下一個會期"},{"start":4274.49,"end":4276.49,"text":"也許就不是這個召委"},{"start":4276.49,"end":4278.49,"text":"不是羅庭委員囉"},{"start":4278.49,"end":4280.49,"text":"那但是還是要提醒啦"},{"start":4280.49,"end":4282.49,"text":"有任何的議程的變更"},{"start":4282.49,"end":4285.49,"text":"麻煩給予更多充足的時間"},{"start":4285.49,"end":4286.49,"text":"給部會也好"},{"start":4286.49,"end":4287.49,"text":"給我們所有的委員也好"},{"start":4287.49,"end":4289.49,"text":"讓我們有充分的時間"},{"start":4289.49,"end":4290.49,"text":"可以準備資料"},{"start":4290.49,"end":4293.49,"text":"可以準備讓法案的討論更加精緻"},{"start":4293.49,"end":4295.49,"text":"而不是用很粗暴的一個方式"},{"start":4295.49,"end":4297.49,"text":"用表決說不准再討論了"},{"start":4297.49,"end":4299.49,"text":"我們就不要再討論了"},{"start":4299.49,"end":4300.49,"text":"我們直接表決"},{"start":4300.49,"end":4303.49,"text":"所以這為什麼是早上我們發生的事情"},{"start":4303.49,"end":4304.49,"text":"我覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":4304.49,"end":4306.49,"text":"我在這裡還是要表達我的意見"},{"start":4306.49,"end":4307.49,"text":"以上"},{"start":4308.1,"end":4310.1,"text":"好謝謝我們郭一琴委員"},{"start":4310.1,"end":4312.1,"text":"也跟郭一琴委員特別報告"},{"start":4312.1,"end":4315.1,"text":"可能大家都是這一屆當選"},{"start":4315.1,"end":4318.1,"text":"可能對議事規則不一定這麼熟悉"},{"start":4318.1,"end":4319.1,"text":"但是因為擔任召委"},{"start":4319.1,"end":4321.1,"text":"我有我的權責"},{"start":4321.1,"end":4323.1,"text":"所以也去特別研究一下"},{"start":4323.1,"end":4326.1,"text":"立法院議事規則第16條"},{"start":4326.1,"end":4328.1,"text":"議事日程由秘書長編擬"},{"start":4328.1,"end":4331.1,"text":"經程序委員會審定後附議"},{"start":4331.1,"end":4333.1,"text":"除有特殊情形外"},{"start":4333.1,"end":4337.1,"text":"致辭於開會前兩日送達"},{"start":4337.1,"end":4341.1,"text":"所以禮拜五我特別來更改議程"},{"start":4341.1,"end":4345.1,"text":"這個部分是符合議事規則裡面所規範的"},{"start":4345.1,"end":4347.1,"text":"再者我也有提到"},{"start":4347.1,"end":4350.1,"text":"這裡面有寫到除有特殊情形外"},{"start":4350.1,"end":4354.1,"text":"我們現在面對問題由致哀由"},{"start":4354.1,"end":4356.1,"text":"如此猖狂"},{"start":4356.1,"end":4357.1,"text":"從"},{"start":4357.75,"end":4359.75,"text":"吉白所學校"},{"start":4360.18,"end":4363.18,"text":"到已經上升到幾千所學校"},{"start":4363.18,"end":4366.18,"text":"問題由致哀由進入到校園"},{"start":4366.18,"end":4367.18,"text":"我們非常擔憂"},{"start":4367.18,"end":4370.18,"text":"校事會議這幾天的新聞你可以去看看"},{"start":4370.18,"end":4372.18,"text":"所以這是特殊情形"},{"start":4372.18,"end":4375.18,"text":"也符合整個議事規則裡面的規範"},{"start":4375.18,"end":4376.18,"text":"來"},{"start":4377.17,"end":4379.17,"text":"安排相關的議程"},{"start":4379.52,"end":4381.52,"text":"所以也請你體諒"},{"start":4381.52,"end":4383.52,"text":"所有的東西都是照著規則來走"},{"start":4383.7,"end":4384.7,"text":"我講"},{"start":4387.11,"end":4388.11,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":4388.11,"end":4390.11,"text":"所以我剛剛有特別提到"},{"start":4390.11,"end":4391.11,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到"},{"start":4391.11,"end":4393.11,"text":"不好意思我在發言當中"},{"start":4393.11,"end":4395.11,"text":"不好意思我在發言當中"},{"start":4395.11,"end":4396.11,"text":"我有說"},{"start":4396.11,"end":4400.11,"text":"昭偉的確依法有確實可以更改的一個權利"},{"start":4400.11,"end":4401.11,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4401.11,"end":4403.11,"text":"但是基本上謝謝你的建議"},{"start":4403.11,"end":4404.11,"text":"但是先告訴您"},{"start":4404.11,"end":4405.11,"text":"也告訴所有的國人"},{"start":4405.11,"end":4410.11,"text":"我是依照我的這相關的議事規則來進行"},{"start":4410.11,"end":4413.11,"text":"那您對於我這細節上處理的"},{"start":4413.11,"end":4415.11,"text":"沒有辦法像您說的這麼完美"},{"start":4415.11,"end":4416.11,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":4416.11,"end":4419.11,"text":"我想我只能說謝謝你的指教"},{"start":4419.11,"end":4421.11,"text":"但是為了國人的健康"},{"start":4421.11,"end":4423.11,"text":"為了孩子的健康"},{"start":4423.11,"end":4424.11,"text":"為了校事會議教育"},{"start":4424.11,"end":4426.11,"text":"我想這有其必要性"},{"start":4428.1,"end":4429.1,"text":"在者"},{"start":4429.1,"end":4432.1,"text":"我想要再特別的提醒我們現在所有的委員"},{"start":4432.1,"end":4435.1,"text":"因為我們今天已經在開始審理"},{"start":4435.1,"end":4437.1,"text":"營養午餐相關的法案"},{"start":4437.1,"end":4442.1,"text":"那是不是請大家盡量專注在法案的焦點"},{"start":4442.1,"end":4445.1,"text":"那如果還要繼續討論到其他的議題的話"},{"start":4445.1,"end":4449.1,"text":"我想這個部分都會耽誤到整個營養午餐的推遲"},{"start":4449.1,"end":4451.1,"text":"而且也是不遲疑"},{"start":4451.1,"end":4453.1,"text":"我們應該要趕緊的來完成"},{"start":4453.1,"end":4455.1,"text":"因為致癌油的問題"},{"start":4455.1,"end":4458.1,"text":"目前還持續的有可能影響到整個校園"},{"start":4458.1,"end":4459.1,"text":"所以是不是"},{"start":4459.1,"end":4461.1,"text":"周圍召委我請接下來的發言"},{"start":4461.1,"end":4464.1,"text":"是專注在所有的營養午餐法案裡面"},{"start":4464.1,"end":4465.1,"text":"配音委員可以嗎"},{"start":4466.56,"end":4467.56,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":4468.55,"end":4470.55,"text":"發言委員可以嗎"},{"start":4470.55,"end":4474.55,"text":"今天我開宗明義就說最關心營養午餐的發言委員"},{"start":4474.55,"end":4476.55,"text":"這個部分我們是不是繼續往前推進"},{"start":4478.52,"end":4481.52,"text":"如果您還是有持續其他要講的話"},{"start":4481.52,"end":4483.52,"text":"那我們先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":4487.97,"end":4490.97,"text":"我現在問的是主席周圍的一個公正性"},{"start":4490.97,"end":4492.97,"text":"你拿麥克風MARK在場的立委"},{"start":4492.97,"end":4494.97,"text":"不讓別人回應"},{"start":4496.24,"end":4498.24,"text":"這就是周圍的崩壞"},{"start":4498.24,"end":4500.24,"text":"破壞周圍化委會的傳統"},{"start":4500.24,"end":4502.24,"text":"大家趕快討論到營養午餐"},{"start":4502.24,"end":4505.24,"text":"那你剛剛葉元之、羅志強罵我之後"},{"start":4505.24,"end":4507.24,"text":"待會我不能夠回應"},{"start":4507.24,"end":4509.24,"text":"每個人都一人發言"},{"start":4509.24,"end":4511.24,"text":"每個人都一人發言"},{"start":4511.24,"end":4513.24,"text":"怎麼會有這種主席"},{"start":4513.24,"end":4515.24,"text":"這個問題真的很嚴重"},{"start":4515.24,"end":4517.24,"text":"怎麼會有這種主席"},{"start":4517.24,"end":4519.24,"text":"我沒看過這種主席"},{"start":4519.24,"end":4521.24,"text":"周圍化委員會"},{"start":4521.24,"end":4523.24,"text":"我們沒看過這種周圍化委員會"},{"start":4523.24,"end":4525.24,"text":"拜託你好好討論"},{"start":4526.24,"end":4528.24,"text":"如今周圍他主持的時候"},{"start":4528.24,"end":4530.24,"text":"都很尊重大家"},{"start":4530.24,"end":4532.24,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4532.24,"end":4534.24,"text":"你不能有自己的標準"},{"start":4534.24,"end":4535.24,"text":"我們尊重"},{"start":4535.24,"end":4537.24,"text":"但是只要兩套標準"},{"start":4537.24,"end":4539.24,"text":"我們有兩套標準"},{"start":4539.24,"end":4541.24,"text":"不是"},{"start":4541.24,"end":4543.24,"text":"陳培英不是周圍"},{"start":4543.24,"end":4545.24,"text":"你是周圍的時候出國被罵的"},{"start":4545.24,"end":4547.24,"text":"韓國一剛院長也有江啟臣"},{"start":4547.24,"end":4549.24,"text":"來幫忙主持院會"},{"start":4549.24,"end":4551.24,"text":"這亂比較"},{"start":4550.85,"end":4552.85,"text":"莫名其妙"},{"start":4556.08,"end":4558.08,"text":"雲霧混珠"},{"start":4558.08,"end":4560.08,"text":"這樣的人沒有辦法當Joyful Heart委員會的委員"},{"start":4585.12,"end":4587.12,"text":"周圍化委員會"},{"start":4587.12,"end":4589.12,"text":"周圍化委員會拜拜成將"},{"start":4589.12,"end":4591.12,"text":"周圍拿著化科中拜科中"},{"start":4591.12,"end":4593.12,"text":"就放在在場公寓"},{"start":4593.12,"end":4595.12,"text":"以前周圍四年沒有這樣子"},{"start":4595.12,"end":4597.12,"text":"現在是越來越嚴重"},{"start":4619.97,"end":4621.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4624.24,"end":4626.24,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4671.98,"end":4673.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4674.02,"end":4676.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4704.98,"end":4706.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4706.57,"end":4708.57,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4708.57,"end":4710.57,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4710.57,"end":4712.57,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4712.57,"end":4714.57,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4729.32,"end":4731.32,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4731.98,"end":4733.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4734.38,"end":4736.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4736.38,"end":4738.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4738.38,"end":4740.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4740.38,"end":4742.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4742.38,"end":4744.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4744.38,"end":4746.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4746.38,"end":4748.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4748.38,"end":4750.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4750.38,"end":4752.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4752.38,"end":4754.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4754.38,"end":4756.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4756.38,"end":4758.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4758.38,"end":4760.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4760.38,"end":4762.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4749.21,"end":4751.21,"text":"萬美麟不是本委"},{"start":4751.21,"end":4753.21,"text":"不要這樣子又要扯本委"},{"start":4753.7,"end":4755.7,"text":"你連萬美麟不是本委你都不知道"},{"start":4755.7,"end":4757.7,"text":"就代表你不是教育文化委員會的本委嗎"},{"start":4759.22,"end":4761.22,"text":"對不起"},{"start":4764.97,"end":4766.97,"text":"上一次"},{"start":4766.97,"end":4768.97,"text":"上一次"},{"start":4768.97,"end":4770.97,"text":"羅志祥他們不在"},{"start":4770.97,"end":4772.97,"text":"你們就攻擊他們不在"},{"start":4772.97,"end":4774.97,"text":"不要再說了"},{"start":4775.17,"end":4777.17,"text":"上一次所有的"},{"start":4777.17,"end":4779.17,"text":"業員職委員不在"},{"start":4779.17,"end":4781.17,"text":"你們就說業員職委員怎麼不見了"},{"start":4781.17,"end":4783.17,"text":"一樣的標準"},{"start":4783.27,"end":4785.27,"text":"上次到八點"},{"start":4785.27,"end":4787.27,"text":"我也在"},{"start":4787.27,"end":4789.27,"text":"你們就這樣攻擊他們"},{"start":4790.35,"end":4792.35,"text":"你們有時候也不在"},{"start":4792.35,"end":4794.35,"text":"我們也不會這樣"},{"start":4794.35,"end":4796.35,"text":"我讓你再論述一次"},{"start":4796.35,"end":4798.35,"text":"但是回到我們的營養組參考"},{"start":4807.5,"end":4809.5,"text":"好 下一開會"},{"start":4810.17,"end":4812.17,"text":"好 我們休息冷靜五分鐘"},{"start":4813.08,"end":4815.08,"text":"還是要尊重委員的發言"},{"start":4815.08,"end":4817.08,"text":"那我再一次的"},{"start":4816.76,"end":4818.76,"text":"靜"},{"start":4817.98,"end":4819.98,"text":"禁告拜託"},{"start":4819.98,"end":4821.98,"text":"宣告拜託"},{"start":4821.98,"end":4823.98,"text":"我們就盡量的簡短發言"},{"start":4823.98,"end":4825.98,"text":"然後推進我們的營養午餐專法"},{"start":4827.45,"end":4829.45,"text":"委員相互尊重"},{"start":4829.25,"end":4831.25,"text":"那待會吳佩儀委員發言的時候"},{"start":4831.25,"end":4833.25,"text":"我也要禁告"},{"start":4833.25,"end":4835.25,"text":"其餘的委員不可以干擾他的發言"},{"start":4835.25,"end":4837.25,"text":"以上"},{"start":4837.33,"end":4839.33,"text":"請佩儀委員"},{"start":4839.71,"end":4841.71,"text":"好 等一下這個營養午餐很重要"},{"start":4841.71,"end":4843.71,"text":"那我也有版本大家都很忠實"},{"start":4843.71,"end":4845.71,"text":"所以我盡快簡短講"},{"start":4845.71,"end":4847.71,"text":"就是我還是要講說 剛剛在討論的時候"},{"start":4847.71,"end":4849.71,"text":"為什麼我們在要求我們希望"},{"start":4849.71,"end":4851.71,"text":"要讓教育部來說明"},{"start":4851.71,"end":4853.71,"text":"因為像這個校事會議我們都要求要修正"},{"start":4853.71,"end":4855.71,"text":"那甚至我自己的爸爸媽媽"},{"start":4855.71,"end":4857.71,"text":"都是小學老師"},{"start":4857.71,"end":4859.71,"text":"所以教學現場我們真的需要讓老師"},{"start":4859.71,"end":4861.71,"text":"壓力不要那麼大"},{"start":4861.71,"end":4863.71,"text":"這個我們 其實我認為我們這個議題"},{"start":4863.71,"end":4865.71,"text":"跟其他議題不一樣"},{"start":4865.71,"end":4867.71,"text":"其實我們朝野大家共識性滿高的"},{"start":4867.71,"end":4869.71,"text":"但是在程序跟法律的"},{"start":4869.71,"end":4871.71,"text":"見解定義上面有所不同"},{"start":4871.71,"end":4873.71,"text":"那我剛剛提的是"},{"start":4873.71,"end":4875.71,"text":"這之前其實質詢的時候"},{"start":4875.71,"end":4877.71,"text":"葉文志委員也贊同就是我們擔心說"},{"start":4877.71,"end":4879.71,"text":"如果退回之後他的法律效果"},{"start":4879.71,"end":4881.71,"text":"在沒有修正之前"},{"start":4881.71,"end":4883.71,"text":"他會不會毀掉上一個版本"},{"start":4883.71,"end":4885.71,"text":"就是還可以允許匿名檢舉"},{"start":4885.71,"end":4887.71,"text":"甚至沒有這個分流"},{"start":4887.71,"end":4889.71,"text":"我們擔心這個 但是我剛剛沒有"},{"start":4889.71,"end":4891.71,"text":"獲得教育部的說明"},{"start":4891.71,"end":4893.71,"text":"這是為什麼我剛剛會是一再要求說"},{"start":4893.71,"end":4895.71,"text":"請讓我再發言的原因"},{"start":4895.71,"end":4897.71,"text":"但是沒關係 已經就是大家決議過去了"},{"start":4897.71,"end":4899.71,"text":"但是我要拜託說"},{"start":4899.71,"end":4901.71,"text":"等一下營養午餐的時候 因為有一些問題"},{"start":4901.71,"end":4903.71,"text":"是同樣的 就是我們希望"},{"start":4903.71,"end":4905.71,"text":"這個教育部 過去有沒有跟"},{"start":4905.71,"end":4907.71,"text":"地方政府有協調討論過"},{"start":4907.71,"end":4909.71,"text":"我希望讓他們明確的來說明"},{"start":4909.71,"end":4911.71,"text":"我們才能夠進行這個法案比較明確的"},{"start":4911.71,"end":4913.71,"text":"這個審議 謝謝"},{"start":4913.71,"end":4915.71,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩儀委員"},{"start":4915.71,"end":4917.71,"text":"非常理性而且是專業的訴求"},{"start":4917.71,"end":4919.71,"text":"關心營養午餐 那也跟你們報告"},{"start":4919.71,"end":4921.71,"text":"7月13日我們已經有討論過"},{"start":4921.71,"end":4923.71,"text":"一次會 那當時"},{"start":4923.71,"end":4925.71,"text":"有讓這個校事會議針對相關辦法"},{"start":4925.71,"end":4927.71,"text":"有讓教育部來回應"},{"start":4927.71,"end":4929.71,"text":"那所以今天才會繼續審查"},{"start":4929.71,"end":4931.71,"text":"以上簡單報告 那下一位"},{"start":4931.71,"end":4933.71,"text":"我答應過要讓他發言"},{"start":4933.71,"end":4935.71,"text":"范雲委員"},{"start":4936.49,"end":4938.49,"text":"謝謝昭偉"},{"start":4938.49,"end":4940.49,"text":"那我要先講 因為剛剛有委員"},{"start":4940.49,"end":4942.49,"text":"質疑我沒有禮貌"},{"start":4942.49,"end":4944.49,"text":"那我要講 我的禮貌是"},{"start":4944.49,"end":4946.49,"text":"保留給尊重其他人的人"},{"start":4947.66,"end":4949.66,"text":"我們在場有柯志恩委員在場"},{"start":4949.66,"end":4951.66,"text":"他當昭偉的時候"},{"start":4951.66,"end":4953.66,"text":"我們有不禮貌插他的話嗎 沒有"},{"start":4953.66,"end":4955.66,"text":"外媒林委員 很多議題"},{"start":4955.66,"end":4957.66,"text":"我也跟他意見不一樣 我沒有插過"},{"start":4957.66,"end":4959.66,"text":"他當昭偉的話"},{"start":4959.66,"end":4961.66,"text":"上一屆四年 國民黨不管是"},{"start":4961.66,"end":4963.66,"text":"誰當昭偉"},{"start":4963.66,"end":4965.66,"text":"都沒有發生這樣的事 我也"},{"start":4965.66,"end":4967.66,"text":"從來沒有被認為不禮貌過"},{"start":4967.66,"end":4969.66,"text":"所以我再講一下"},{"start":4969.66,"end":4971.66,"text":"昭偉不管是誰當"},{"start":4971.66,"end":4973.66,"text":"尊重大家發言的意見"},{"start":4973.66,"end":4975.66,"text":"多數少數意見彼此說服"},{"start":4975.66,"end":4977.66,"text":"這是教育文化委員會"},{"start":4977.66,"end":4979.66,"text":"優良的傳統 有人不尊重"},{"start":4979.66,"end":4981.66,"text":"我沒有辦法"},{"start":4981.66,"end":4983.66,"text":"但是我有表達對教育文化委員會"},{"start":4983.66,"end":4985.66,"text":"過去文化的一個珍惜"},{"start":4985.66,"end":4987.66,"text":"我想不管我們誰當昭偉"},{"start":4987.66,"end":4989.66,"text":"那都會有不同的意見"},{"start":4989.66,"end":4991.66,"text":"不同黨派 有時候你是多數"},{"start":4991.66,"end":4993.66,"text":"有時候我是多數"},{"start":4993.66,"end":4995.66,"text":"我們是不是能夠"},{"start":4995.66,"end":4997.66,"text":"處理教育問題的時候"},{"start":4997.66,"end":4999.66,"text":"也能夠讓大家看到"},{"start":4999.66,"end":5001.66,"text":"不分黨派 我們關心教育"},{"start":5001.66,"end":5003.66,"text":"不同的意見都值得我們參考"},{"start":5003.66,"end":5005.66,"text":"剛剛我為不在場的"},{"start":5005.66,"end":5007.66,"text":"吳思瑤陳培講話"},{"start":5007.66,"end":5009.66,"text":"因為我不忍心他們長期"},{"start":5009.66,"end":5011.66,"text":"這麼關心教育問題"},{"start":5011.66,"end":5013.66,"text":"那就在昭偉的口中"},{"start":5013.66,"end":5015.66,"text":"把他講成是一個去看棒球"},{"start":5015.66,"end":5017.66,"text":"然後拋下教育的人"},{"start":5017.66,"end":5019.66,"text":"我覺得對他很不公平"},{"start":5019.65,"end":5021.65,"text":"就如同我剛剛休息的時候講"},{"start":5021.65,"end":5023.65,"text":"羅廷瑋被攻擊是因為"},{"start":5023.65,"end":5025.65,"text":"是昭偉 沒有人可以帶主持"},{"start":5025.65,"end":5027.65,"text":"今天教育文化委員"},{"start":5027.65,"end":5029.65,"text":"或是任何一個委員會"},{"start":5029.65,"end":5031.65,"text":"有人請假做國會外交"},{"start":5031.65,"end":5033.65,"text":"我們都不會這樣攻擊"},{"start":5033.65,"end":5035.65,"text":"韓國瑜院長我們也不攻擊"},{"start":5035.65,"end":5037.65,"text":"因為江啟臣可以主持"},{"start":5037.65,"end":5039.65,"text":"我想這都是合理的事情"},{"start":5039.65,"end":5041.65,"text":"最後我要講的事情"},{"start":5041.65,"end":5043.65,"text":"剛剛也有委員"},{"start":5043.65,"end":5045.65,"text":"把不在場的人本做批評"},{"start":5045.65,"end":5047.65,"text":"我覺得不管是人本"},{"start":5047.65,"end":5049.65,"text":"全教種特教老師"},{"start":5049.65,"end":5051.65,"text":"代理教師團體學生團體"},{"start":5051.65,"end":5053.65,"text":"他們都是為教育好"},{"start":5053.65,"end":5055.65,"text":"他們的意見都應該要"},{"start":5055.65,"end":5057.65,"text":"被好好的討論"},{"start":5057.65,"end":5059.65,"text":"為什麼可以把不在場的團體"},{"start":5059.65,"end":5061.65,"text":"然後做攻擊"},{"start":5061.65,"end":5063.65,"text":"刻意指稱人本跟我很好"},{"start":5063.65,"end":5065.65,"text":"我跟全教種也很好"},{"start":5065.65,"end":5067.65,"text":"跟特教老師團體也很好"},{"start":5067.65,"end":5069.65,"text":"跟代理教師也很好"},{"start":5069.65,"end":5071.65,"text":"因為他們都提出很好的意見"},{"start":5071.65,"end":5073.65,"text":"教育部本來就應該要"},{"start":5073.65,"end":5075.65,"text":"都能聽到仔細去思考"},{"start":5075.65,"end":5077.65,"text":"就像教師會議"},{"start":5077.65,"end":5079.65,"text":"我們民進黨的委員"},{"start":5079.65,"end":5081.65,"text":"早上不代表大家不關心"},{"start":5081.65,"end":5083.65,"text":"我沒有來也不代表不關心"},{"start":5083.65,"end":5085.65,"text":"我現在不在教育委員會"},{"start":5085.65,"end":5087.65,"text":"可是我也來質詢"},{"start":5087.65,"end":5089.65,"text":"部長也聽到我對教師會議"},{"start":5089.65,"end":5091.65,"text":"批判的意見"},{"start":5091.65,"end":5093.65,"text":"我希望是不是能夠"},{"start":5093.65,"end":5095.65,"text":"逐步去處理所謂的第三方機制"},{"start":5095.65,"end":5097.65,"text":"我覺得這都是"},{"start":5097.65,"end":5099.65,"text":"我們對教師會議關心的方式"},{"start":5099.65,"end":5101.65,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":5101.65,"end":5103.65,"text":"有委員每次拿了麥克風"},{"start":5103.65,"end":5105.65,"text":"都這樣扭曲別人的意見"},{"start":5105.65,"end":5107.65,"text":"那我們要浪費時間"},{"start":5107.65,"end":5109.65,"text":"談這個相關的議題"},{"start":5109.65,"end":5111.65,"text":"我也是不得已"},{"start":5111.65,"end":5113.65,"text":"那最後營養午餐的這個專法"},{"start":5113.65,"end":5115.65,"text":"上一屆我非常早就提出來"},{"start":5115.65,"end":5117.65,"text":"非常的重視"},{"start":5117.65,"end":5119.65,"text":"那可是我也希望大家要體會"},{"start":5119.65,"end":5121.65,"text":"現在才劃法的狀況不明"},{"start":5121.65,"end":5123.65,"text":"中央地方的分工"},{"start":5123.65,"end":5125.65,"text":"要合理"},{"start":5125.65,"end":5127.65,"text":"那到底是誰買單"},{"start":5127.65,"end":5129.65,"text":"增加的人事經費應該是誰出"},{"start":5129.65,"end":5131.65,"text":"我覺得這都是重中之重"},{"start":5131.65,"end":5133.65,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":5133.93,"end":5135.93,"text":"那也再一次跟范委員特別報告"},{"start":5135.93,"end":5137.93,"text":"那因為我上次"},{"start":5137.93,"end":5139.93,"text":"擔任主席"},{"start":5139.93,"end":5141.93,"text":"我是排考察"},{"start":5141.93,"end":5143.93,"text":"所以沒有所謂沒人能夠代理"},{"start":5143.93,"end":5145.93,"text":"相關的一個會議"},{"start":5145.93,"end":5147.93,"text":"而且當時我是"},{"start":5147.93,"end":5149.93,"text":"非常要求"},{"start":5149.91,"end":5151.91,"text":"國教署署長"},{"start":5151.51,"end":5153.51,"text":"要親身去體驗"},{"start":5154.45,"end":5156.45,"text":"那國教署署長在羅志祥委員的"},{"start":5156.45,"end":5158.45,"text":"詢答過程當中他也承認"},{"start":5158.45,"end":5160.45,"text":"他現場體驗到"},{"start":5160.45,"end":5162.45,"text":"了解到的"},{"start":5162.45,"end":5166.45,"text":"看到的 跟過往他所取得的文獻資料不太一樣"},{"start":5167.29,"end":5169.29,"text":"有其他的收穫"},{"start":5169.29,"end":5171.29,"text":"所以有這一層的必要"},{"start":5171.29,"end":5173.29,"text":"也希望您能夠體諒"},{"start":5173.29,"end":5175.29,"text":"每一個人的安排相關的議程"},{"start":5175.29,"end":5177.29,"text":"那最後"},{"start":5177.29,"end":5179.29,"text":"如果委員對於營養午餐"},{"start":5179.29,"end":5181.29,"text":"誰來負擔"},{"start":5182.09,"end":5184.09,"text":"這麼的感興趣"},{"start":5184.09,"end":5186.09,"text":"那我們事不宜遲"},{"start":5186.09,"end":5188.09,"text":"我們趕快推進好不好"},{"start":5189.68,"end":5191.68,"text":"好 謝謝您"},{"start":5191.68,"end":5193.68,"text":"那現在我們"},{"start":5193.68,"end":5195.68,"text":"相關的一個裁劃法"},{"start":5195.68,"end":5197.68,"text":"也已經都開始了"},{"start":5197.68,"end":5199.68,"text":"那我們是不是趕快來推進"},{"start":5199.68,"end":5201.68,"text":"拜託委員 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":5201.68,"end":5203.68,"text":"那接下來我們第五條"},{"start":5203.68,"end":5205.68,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十九條"},{"start":5205.68,"end":5207.68,"text":"等三十八個提案"},{"start":5207.68,"end":5209.68,"text":"以及委員柯志恩等人所提"},{"start":5209.68,"end":5211.68,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":5211.68,"end":5213.68,"text":"接著我們來針對第五條"},{"start":5213.68,"end":5215.68,"text":"開始討論 請委員舉手"},{"start":5220.28,"end":5222.28,"text":"好 大家可以看到這個委員"},{"start":5222.28,"end":5224.28,"text":"羅廷瑋等柯志恩"},{"start":5224.28,"end":5226.28,"text":"學校午餐及飲食條例的草案"},{"start":5226.28,"end":5228.28,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":5228.28,"end":5230.28,"text":"然後來 最主要我們要參考的是"},{"start":5230.28,"end":5232.28,"text":"教育部的建議文字"},{"start":5232.28,"end":5234.28,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":5234.77,"end":5236.77,"text":"呃"},{"start":5235.9,"end":5237.9,"text":"陳秀芭委員再來 柯志恩委員 謝謝"},{"start":5243.55,"end":5245.55,"text":"陳秀芭委員 謝謝"},{"start":5245.55,"end":5247.55,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5247.28,"end":5249.28,"text":"呃 我們現在是在第五條嘛"},{"start":5249.28,"end":5251.28,"text":"第四條"},{"start":5251.5,"end":5253.5,"text":"第五條"},{"start":5281.5,"end":5283.5,"text":"呃 因為規範學校本身"},{"start":5283.5,"end":5285.5,"text":"是不是可以達成到"},{"start":5285.5,"end":5287.5,"text":"飲食教育這個目標呢"},{"start":5287.5,"end":5289.5,"text":"我是比較怕有這個量能不足"},{"start":5289.5,"end":5291.5,"text":"那飲食的均衡"},{"start":5291.5,"end":5293.5,"text":"使用國產豬以及在地食材"},{"start":5293.5,"end":5295.5,"text":"日式飲食文化等等"},{"start":5295.5,"end":5297.5,"text":"這些真正引領學校飲食目標的"},{"start":5297.5,"end":5299.5,"text":"應該都是主管機關"},{"start":5299.5,"end":5301.5,"text":"而不是學校"},{"start":5301.5,"end":5303.5,"text":"所以我會覺得說"},{"start":5303.5,"end":5305.5,"text":"如果只是說我們規範是學校"},{"start":5305.5,"end":5307.5,"text":"這個單位他這樣子"},{"start":5307.5,"end":5309.5,"text":"是不是來處理相關的"},{"start":5309.5,"end":5311.5,"text":"是不足的"},{"start":5311.5,"end":5313.5,"text":"需要用主管機關相關的主管機關"},{"start":5313.5,"end":5315.5,"text":"來一起配合"},{"start":5315.5,"end":5317.5,"text":"那"},{"start":5316.36,"end":5318.36,"text":"這個部分請我們大家好"},{"start":5318.36,"end":5320.36,"text":"同仁們再討論一下"},{"start":5320.36,"end":5322.36,"text":"另外本席也希望說在飲食教育的部分呢"},{"start":5322.36,"end":5324.36,"text":"可以融入在地飲食文化"},{"start":5324.36,"end":5326.36,"text":"或是當地食材"},{"start":5326.36,"end":5328.36,"text":"所以我在"},{"start":5328.36,"end":5330.36,"text":"我的條文裡面有一個培養"},{"start":5330.36,"end":5332.36,"text":"學生關懷在地飲食文化"},{"start":5332.36,"end":5334.36,"text":"並認識多元飲食文化"},{"start":5334.36,"end":5336.36,"text":"以提升學生對飲食之了解"},{"start":5336.36,"end":5338.36,"text":"希望說"},{"start":5338.36,"end":5340.36,"text":"我們有這樣子的項目放進去"},{"start":5340.36,"end":5342.36,"text":"讓孩子對自己家鄉會有更多的認識"},{"start":5342.36,"end":5344.36,"text":"自己家鄉的這些"},{"start":5344.36,"end":5346.36,"text":"不管是農特產"},{"start":5346.36,"end":5348.36,"text":"還是我們有一些特殊的"},{"start":5348.36,"end":5350.36,"text":"是在當地的這個"},{"start":5350.36,"end":5352.36,"text":"不一樣的耕種方式"},{"start":5352.36,"end":5354.36,"text":"所生產出來的"},{"start":5354.36,"end":5356.36,"text":"這樣子的農產品"},{"start":5356.36,"end":5358.36,"text":"來增進孩子們對台灣的文化認識"},{"start":5358.36,"end":5360.36,"text":"所以我增進"},{"start":5360.36,"end":5362.36,"text":"就是第三款這個文字"},{"start":5362.36,"end":5364.36,"text":"也希望大家討論一下"},{"start":5364.36,"end":5366.36,"text":"是不是可以參彩"},{"start":5366.36,"end":5368.36,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":5369.15,"end":5371.15,"text":"科志人委員謝謝"},{"start":5372.58,"end":5374.58,"text":"好我想這第五條"},{"start":5374.58,"end":5376.58,"text":"就是主要達到的這些目標"},{"start":5376.58,"end":5378.58,"text":"我說實在的我覺得教育部寫的已經非常的明確了"},{"start":5378.58,"end":5380.58,"text":"但是為了讓它更細緻化"},{"start":5380.58,"end":5382.58,"text":"我想在這個推動飲食"},{"start":5382.58,"end":5384.58,"text":"教育的部分我們就增加了"},{"start":5384.58,"end":5386.58,"text":"跟秀寶委員一樣就是有關於食農教育"},{"start":5386.58,"end":5388.58,"text":"純粹只是希望能夠讓"},{"start":5388.58,"end":5390.58,"text":"它的重點更能夠提"},{"start":5390.58,"end":5392.58,"text":"就更能夠突出"},{"start":5392.58,"end":5394.58,"text":"那這個部分裡面整個的宗旨跟精神"},{"start":5394.58,"end":5396.58,"text":"跟教育部其實是"},{"start":5396.58,"end":5398.58,"text":"完全是吻合的"},{"start":5398.58,"end":5400.58,"text":"只是我們希望在這裡面的字詞上面"},{"start":5400.58,"end":5402.58,"text":"更增加像是尊重生命"},{"start":5402.58,"end":5404.58,"text":"自然環境跟勞動的成果"},{"start":5404.58,"end":5406.58,"text":"然後在第四"},{"start":5406.58,"end":5408.58,"text":"項裡面就是第四條裡面"},{"start":5408.58,"end":5410.58,"text":"學習感恩息實"},{"start":5410.58,"end":5412.58,"text":"我們覺得是如果能夠加入減少"},{"start":5412.58,"end":5414.58,"text":"食物浪費"},{"start":5414.58,"end":5416.58,"text":"把它更明確的話或許也是一個考量的點"},{"start":5416.58,"end":5418.58,"text":"然後第七個就是我特別提到的"},{"start":5418.58,"end":5420.58,"text":"了解地產地銷"},{"start":5420.58,"end":5422.58,"text":"在地食材與環境永續之關聯"},{"start":5422.58,"end":5424.58,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":5424.58,"end":5426.58,"text":"多增加這幾個文字"},{"start":5426.58,"end":5428.58,"text":"如果讓它這個目標能夠更明確"},{"start":5428.58,"end":5430.58,"text":"更簡單易了解的話"},{"start":5430.58,"end":5432.58,"text":"我覺得大家其實可以來做一個討論的"},{"start":5434.3,"end":5436.3,"text":"好 吳立華委員"},{"start":5436.3,"end":5438.3,"text":"再來燕姿委員 再來郭奕勤委員"},{"start":5438.3,"end":5440.3,"text":"再來吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5440.01,"end":5442.01,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5442.01,"end":5444.01,"text":"一樣我這個地方"},{"start":5444.01,"end":5446.01,"text":"是要特別舉出因為"},{"start":5446.01,"end":5448.01,"text":"我個人也是沒有第五條"},{"start":5448.01,"end":5450.01,"text":"但是教育部"},{"start":5450.01,"end":5452.01,"text":"在第五條裡面列出了"},{"start":5452.01,"end":5454.01,"text":"六項飲食教育"},{"start":5454.01,"end":5456.01,"text":"其實我是覺得支持的"},{"start":5456.01,"end":5458.01,"text":"因為這些都是很重要的教育目標"},{"start":5458.01,"end":5460.01,"text":"但是"},{"start":5460.01,"end":5462.01,"text":"有感於比較像宣示性的目標"},{"start":5462.01,"end":5464.01,"text":"那我更期待是說"},{"start":5464.01,"end":5466.01,"text":"讓學校知道要怎麼"},{"start":5466.01,"end":5468.01,"text":"落實"},{"start":5468.01,"end":5470.01,"text":"那我特別提出的"},{"start":5470.01,"end":5472.01,"text":"是寫了一個叫第五章的"},{"start":5472.01,"end":5474.01,"text":"飲食教育"},{"start":5474.01,"end":5476.01,"text":"那特別把健康飲食"},{"start":5476.01,"end":5478.01,"text":"食農教育 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我們這個營養午餐法其實"},{"start":5517.32,"end":5519.32,"text":"那個時候在討論的時候"},{"start":5519.32,"end":5521.32,"text":"其實蠻多委員都提到飲食教育啦"},{"start":5521.32,"end":5523.32,"text":"那這個應該就是"},{"start":5523.32,"end":5525.32,"text":"應該有必要"},{"start":5525.32,"end":5527.32,"text":"做的一件事情 不過在這個第五條這邊"},{"start":5527.32,"end":5529.32,"text":"是寫說學校得"},{"start":5529.51,"end":5531.51,"text":"透過"},{"start":5530.88,"end":5532.88,"text":"辦理學校午餐推動飲食教育"},{"start":5532.88,"end":5534.88,"text":"就得啦 得就是可做可不做"},{"start":5534.88,"end":5536.88,"text":"所以寫了六點"},{"start":5536.88,"end":5538.88,"text":"到時候沒做其實"},{"start":5538.88,"end":5540.88,"text":"也沒什麼用"},{"start":5540.88,"end":5542.88,"text":"那在我原本的版本裡面我是寫"},{"start":5542.88,"end":5544.88,"text":"應 但是是指"},{"start":5544.88,"end":5546.88,"text":"息時教育 因為這一塊"},{"start":5546.88,"end":5548.88,"text":"我覺得息時這一塊是一個趨勢"},{"start":5548.88,"end":5550.88,"text":"而且應該是必要"},{"start":5550.88,"end":5552.88,"text":"要讓大家知道不能浪費食物"},{"start":5552.88,"end":5554.88,"text":"所以我覺得看看有沒有"},{"start":5554.88,"end":5556.88,"text":"大家可以討論一下 看怎麼折衷一下"},{"start":5556.88,"end":5558.88,"text":"就是什麼東西是得什麼"},{"start":5558.88,"end":5560.88,"text":"就是應可以把它寫得更明確一點"},{"start":5560.88,"end":5562.88,"text":"然後在飲食教育這一塊"},{"start":5562.88,"end":5564.88,"text":"可以讓學校有一個比較確定的準則"},{"start":5564.88,"end":5566.88,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5569.88,"end":5571.88,"text":"國學委員嗎"},{"start":5571.88,"end":5573.88,"text":"對啊 在吳佩玉委員"},{"start":5574.97,"end":5576.97,"text":"好 至於一個部分"},{"start":5576.97,"end":5578.97,"text":"就是我們的教育部的版本"},{"start":5578.97,"end":5580.97,"text":"第五條當中"},{"start":5580.97,"end":5582.97,"text":"其實學習感跟息時這一點"},{"start":5582.97,"end":5584.97,"text":"其實是非常重要"},{"start":5584.97,"end":5586.97,"text":"那在我的版本"},{"start":5586.97,"end":5588.97,"text":"因為我是放在第四條"},{"start":5588.97,"end":5590.97,"text":"那在第四條的部分"},{"start":5590.97,"end":5592.97,"text":"我是不是大家可以"},{"start":5592.97,"end":5594.97,"text":"參酌一下就是說"},{"start":5594.97,"end":5596.97,"text":"有優先 我的版本有寫"},{"start":5596.97,"end":5598.97,"text":"優先採用中央"},{"start":5599.65,"end":5601.65,"text":"農業主管機關認證"},{"start":5601.65,"end":5603.65,"text":"知在地優良農產品"},{"start":5603.65,"end":5605.65,"text":"那提升國內"},{"start":5605.65,"end":5607.65,"text":"農業跟學校飲食供應"},{"start":5607.65,"end":5609.65,"text":"的連結強化在地食材的運用"},{"start":5609.65,"end":5611.65,"text":"那我想這個部分也可以"},{"start":5611.65,"end":5613.65,"text":"視為這個所謂的這個"},{"start":5613.65,"end":5615.65,"text":"我們午餐教育"},{"start":5615.65,"end":5617.65,"text":"的一環喔 那從源頭"},{"start":5617.65,"end":5619.65,"text":"來解決這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":5619.65,"end":5621.65,"text":"以外喔 那是不是也可以"},{"start":5621.65,"end":5623.65,"text":"參酌就是把這個當地在地"},{"start":5623.65,"end":5625.65,"text":"的食材的運用這個部分也可以"},{"start":5625.65,"end":5627.65,"text":"列進去 好 以上"},{"start":5630.27,"end":5632.27,"text":"吳佩奕委員"},{"start":5632.27,"end":5634.27,"text":"這個食農教育我們都很支持"},{"start":5634.27,"end":5636.27,"text":"那現在這個克志恩羅廷瑋版本"},{"start":5636.27,"end":5638.27,"text":"修正動議其實就是教育部"},{"start":5638.27,"end":5640.27,"text":"版的再多加一款"},{"start":5640.27,"end":5642.27,"text":"那精神上面其實我都很支持"},{"start":5642.27,"end":5644.27,"text":"不過我的問題是在於說"},{"start":5644.27,"end":5646.27,"text":"因為食農教育法2022年"},{"start":5646.27,"end":5648.27,"text":"頒布之後 其實那個內容"},{"start":5648.27,"end":5650.27,"text":"這個食農教育法裡面"},{"start":5650.27,"end":5652.27,"text":"其實都已經有寫明了 像這個均衡"},{"start":5652.27,"end":5654.27,"text":"營養啊 然後要徵洗食物啊"},{"start":5654.27,"end":5656.27,"text":"然後要有這個教育啊"},{"start":5656.27,"end":5658.27,"text":"等等 所以可能"},{"start":5658.27,"end":5660.27,"text":"就請庭外委員要說明一下"},{"start":5660.27,"end":5662.27,"text":"所以是說未來我們飲食教育"},{"start":5662.27,"end":5664.27,"text":"就是等同於食農教育"},{"start":5664.27,"end":5666.27,"text":"這是同樣一件事 還是說這是分開的"},{"start":5666.27,"end":5668.27,"text":"有什麼是目前你們覺得"},{"start":5668.27,"end":5670.27,"text":"食農教育法還沒有訂到"},{"start":5670.27,"end":5672.27,"text":"或是範圍沒有擴及的"},{"start":5672.27,"end":5674.27,"text":"這部分我希望可以更明確一點"},{"start":5674.27,"end":5676.27,"text":"有點擔心說兩個法會疊床架物"},{"start":5682.89,"end":5684.89,"text":"好 那是不是待會也請"},{"start":5684.89,"end":5686.89,"text":"大家可以就是說"},{"start":5686.89,"end":5688.89,"text":"盡量看我的"},{"start":5688.89,"end":5690.89,"text":"跟柯政委員的修正動力第五條"},{"start":5690.89,"end":5692.89,"text":"其實我們跟這個"},{"start":5692.89,"end":5694.89,"text":"教育部的建議文字沒有差很多"},{"start":5694.89,"end":5696.89,"text":"再麻煩大家 那再來"},{"start":5696.89,"end":5698.89,"text":"范委員"},{"start":5700.05,"end":5702.05,"text":"那我還是要表達一下"},{"start":5702.05,"end":5704.05,"text":"因為我從上一屆提出的時候"},{"start":5704.05,"end":5706.05,"text":"就有放了那個"},{"start":5706.05,"end":5708.05,"text":"息食的部分 還有多元"},{"start":5708.05,"end":5710.05,"text":"飲食文化的部分 那我很高興"},{"start":5710.05,"end":5712.05,"text":"在教育部的建議文字當中"},{"start":5712.05,"end":5714.05,"text":"有放進去 因為我覺得"},{"start":5714.05,"end":5716.05,"text":"這個對台灣的不管是多族群"},{"start":5716.05,"end":5718.05,"text":"或者是我們也有越來越多的"},{"start":5718.05,"end":5720.05,"text":"國際生 那多元飲食文化"},{"start":5720.05,"end":5722.05,"text":"很重要 那息食的部分也非常的"},{"start":5722.05,"end":5724.05,"text":"重要 可以減少食物"},{"start":5724.05,"end":5726.05,"text":"的浪費 那也能夠"},{"start":5726.05,"end":5728.05,"text":"讓剩食減量的部分"},{"start":5728.05,"end":5730.05,"text":"從學校做起 以上"},{"start":5731.42,"end":5733.42,"text":"好 蔡主任委員"},{"start":5734.59,"end":5736.59,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那"},{"start":5736.59,"end":5738.59,"text":"第五條呢 正會這個"},{"start":5738.59,"end":5740.59,"text":"七項 原則上我們都"},{"start":5740.59,"end":5742.59,"text":"非常同意 也非常多元"},{"start":5742.59,"end":5744.59,"text":"那剛剛柯知恩委員"},{"start":5744.59,"end":5746.59,"text":"也提到了第七"},{"start":5746.59,"end":5748.59,"text":"的這個部分呢 那我個人"},{"start":5748.59,"end":5750.59,"text":"是覺得說 我們再把它"},{"start":5750.59,"end":5752.59,"text":"具體化 就是說"},{"start":5752.59,"end":5754.59,"text":"再把它"},{"start":5754.59,"end":5756.59,"text":"內寫認識在地"},{"start":5756.59,"end":5758.59,"text":"在地地產地銷這個地方"},{"start":5758.59,"end":5760.59,"text":"能夠把它具體"},{"start":5760.59,"end":5762.59,"text":"就是認識在地的"},{"start":5762.59,"end":5764.59,"text":"農漁系產業"},{"start":5764.59,"end":5766.59,"text":"把這個加進去"},{"start":5766.59,"end":5768.59,"text":"更具體"},{"start":5768.59,"end":5770.59,"text":"這個僅供參考 謝謝"},{"start":5771.8,"end":5773.8,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議"},{"start":5773.8,"end":5775.8,"text":"我們把第七個"},{"start":5775.8,"end":5777.8,"text":"也剛剛說的 大家列入"},{"start":5777.8,"end":5779.8,"text":"進去 那我想 我們"},{"start":5779.8,"end":5781.8,"text":"訂這個的條文 也是"},{"start":5781.8,"end":5783.8,"text":"參考到 我想"},{"start":5783.8,"end":5785.8,"text":"志祥委員也印象很深刻啦"},{"start":5785.8,"end":5787.8,"text":"那我們也在這個日本的"},{"start":5787.8,"end":5789.8,"text":"實際了解下"},{"start":5789.8,"end":5791.8,"text":"發現他們對於這個地產地銷"},{"start":5791.8,"end":5793.8,"text":"的一個建議啊 這個過程"},{"start":5793.8,"end":5795.8,"text":"他們都很落實 讓孩子知道"},{"start":5795.8,"end":5797.8,"text":"那感恩息食這個部分"},{"start":5797.8,"end":5799.8,"text":"也是有助於處理源頭"},{"start":5799.8,"end":5801.8,"text":"不要浪費 不要多餘"},{"start":5801.8,"end":5803.8,"text":"的一些廚餘"},{"start":5803.8,"end":5805.8,"text":"造成後續的"},{"start":5805.8,"end":5807.8,"text":"預算 要去消耗"},{"start":5807.8,"end":5809.8,"text":"然後來處理廚餘"},{"start":5809.8,"end":5811.8,"text":"那所以 呃"},{"start":5811.44,"end":5813.44,"text":"署長應該跟我編列在同一個"},{"start":5813.44,"end":5815.44,"text":"日本的班級 那我們看到"},{"start":5815.44,"end":5817.44,"text":"當時對於廚餘的部分"},{"start":5817.44,"end":5819.44,"text":"是非常少 所以我們"},{"start":5819.44,"end":5821.44,"text":"印象很深刻 也希望說這個部分放進去"},{"start":5821.44,"end":5823.44,"text":"那是不是請教育部回應一下"},{"start":5828.93,"end":5830.93,"text":"謝謝昭偉 剛剛"},{"start":5830.93,"end":5832.93,"text":"呃 有七位人次"},{"start":5832.93,"end":5834.93,"text":"再加上昭偉有些補充 我"},{"start":5834.93,"end":5836.93,"text":"很緊要的說明 首先"},{"start":5836.93,"end":5838.93,"text":"這一個條文是經過"},{"start":5838.93,"end":5840.93,"text":"跟地方政府"},{"start":5840.93,"end":5842.93,"text":"還有學校的一些專家所討論"},{"start":5842.93,"end":5844.93,"text":"結合現在的飲食教育"},{"start":5844.93,"end":5846.93,"text":"以及我們的"},{"start":5846.93,"end":5848.93,"text":"飲食教育"},{"start":5848.93,"end":5850.93,"text":"指導內容 也就是說結合"},{"start":5850.93,"end":5852.93,"text":"這課綱 跟我們所頒布的"},{"start":5852.93,"end":5854.93,"text":"飲食指導的內容"},{"start":5854.93,"end":5856.93,"text":"用最有效的方式"},{"start":5856.93,"end":5858.93,"text":"讓老師 學校知道怎麼推"},{"start":5858.93,"end":5860.93,"text":"已經是"},{"start":5860.93,"end":5862.93,"text":"這個在面向上是"},{"start":5862.93,"end":5864.93,"text":"盡量整合"},{"start":5864.93,"end":5866.93,"text":"讓老師可以覺得這個"},{"start":5866.93,"end":5868.93,"text":"他們可以做得不錯"},{"start":5868.93,"end":5870.93,"text":"那現在委員這邊"},{"start":5870.93,"end":5872.93,"text":"有增加第五條標題"},{"start":5872.93,"end":5874.93,"text":"就增加食農教育"},{"start":5874.93,"end":5876.93,"text":"以及內涵增加勞動成果"},{"start":5876.93,"end":5878.93,"text":"減少食物浪費 以及地產"},{"start":5878.93,"end":5880.93,"text":"地銷這幾個觀念 我跟大家"},{"start":5880.93,"end":5882.93,"text":"做個報告一下 因為這裡面"},{"start":5882.93,"end":5884.93,"text":"第一 剛才吳佩儀委員也關心"},{"start":5884.93,"end":5886.93,"text":"到食農教育這一部分"},{"start":5887.74,"end":5889.74,"text":"這一部分有食農教育專法"},{"start":5891.09,"end":5893.09,"text":"那我們現在擔心"},{"start":5893.09,"end":5895.09,"text":"如果我們現在列食農教育"},{"start":5895.09,"end":5897.09,"text":"那可能就會"},{"start":5897.09,"end":5899.09,"text":"有 從裡面可以看出"},{"start":5899.09,"end":5901.09,"text":"環境教育"},{"start":5900.85,"end":5902.85,"text":"在裡面又可以看出食安教育"},{"start":5902.85,"end":5904.85,"text":"這些在學校"},{"start":5904.85,"end":5906.85,"text":"而言 因為那些專法"},{"start":5906.85,"end":5908.85,"text":"可以有專門的關心"},{"start":5908.85,"end":5910.85,"text":"我們整個可以在學校"},{"start":5910.85,"end":5912.85,"text":"教飲食教育 所以原來"},{"start":5912.85,"end":5914.85,"text":"用飲食教育"},{"start":5914.85,"end":5916.85,"text":"老師覺得應該是"},{"start":5916.85,"end":5918.85,"text":"教育界內"},{"start":5918.85,"end":5920.85,"text":"算滿能接受 也是課綱"},{"start":5920.85,"end":5922.85,"text":"以及歷來飲食教育"},{"start":5922.85,"end":5924.85,"text":"指導的內容"},{"start":5924.4,"end":5926.4,"text":"所以如果在其他專法"},{"start":5926.4,"end":5928.4,"text":"有提到的 是不是學校"},{"start":5928.4,"end":5930.4,"text":"跟地方政府以及一些"},{"start":5930.4,"end":5932.4,"text":"專家老師覺得應該在那個專法裡面"},{"start":5932.4,"end":5934.4,"text":"有他推動的"},{"start":5934.78,"end":5936.78,"text":"在本專法內"},{"start":5936.78,"end":5938.78,"text":"是不是能夠盡量"},{"start":5938.78,"end":5940.78,"text":"著墨在我們學校"},{"start":5940.78,"end":5942.78,"text":"或是地方主管 教育主管機關"},{"start":5943.68,"end":5945.68,"text":"那此外"},{"start":5944.96,"end":5946.96,"text":"像這一類觀念下"},{"start":5947.74,"end":5949.74,"text":"包含感恩 惜食"},{"start":5949.74,"end":5951.74,"text":"其實就是趙薇剛剛提到"},{"start":5951.74,"end":5953.74,"text":"那多提了減少食物浪費"},{"start":5953.74,"end":5955.74,"text":"這一個其實在"},{"start":5955.74,"end":5957.74,"text":"惜食這邊"},{"start":5957.74,"end":5959.74,"text":"其實它是一整包"},{"start":5959.74,"end":5961.74,"text":"那在外加減少食物浪費"},{"start":5961.74,"end":5963.74,"text":"這六個字的時候"},{"start":5963.74,"end":5965.74,"text":"會變成它在技術上"},{"start":5965.74,"end":5967.74,"text":"要做處理的時候"},{"start":5967.74,"end":5969.74,"text":"我建議 其實會讓學校的老師"},{"start":5971.01,"end":5973.01,"text":"覺得說好像這個本來已經有整合了"},{"start":5973.01,"end":5975.01,"text":"那如果再增加"},{"start":5975.01,"end":5977.01,"text":"惜食這個會有一點點"},{"start":5977.01,"end":5979.01,"text":"在減少食物浪費上"},{"start":5979.01,"end":5981.01,"text":"會有操作的彈性"},{"start":5981.01,"end":5983.01,"text":"跟一個可能"},{"start":5983.01,"end":5985.01,"text":"額外的可能的時候他們會擔心"},{"start":5985.01,"end":5987.01,"text":"因為原來在惜食就已經處理了"},{"start":5987.01,"end":5989.01,"text":"最後一個地產地銷"},{"start":5989.01,"end":5991.01,"text":"最後報告完就是說"},{"start":5991.01,"end":5993.01,"text":"其實在原來第六點的實在來源"},{"start":5993.01,"end":5995.01,"text":"就已經有處理"},{"start":5995.01,"end":5997.01,"text":"如果在加 還有後面的剛才委員問到"},{"start":5997.01,"end":5999.01,"text":"要優先採用在第十六條會提到"},{"start":5999.01,"end":6001.01,"text":"我們這個原來條文是有整合過"},{"start":6001.01,"end":6003.01,"text":"用最"},{"start":6003.11,"end":6005.11,"text":"恰當的方式"},{"start":6005.11,"end":6007.11,"text":"讓學校推的時候"},{"start":6007.11,"end":6009.11,"text":"是他們的主軸"},{"start":6009.11,"end":6011.11,"text":"可能我怕再提可能會一直外加"},{"start":6011.11,"end":6013.11,"text":"這一點上怕增加"},{"start":6013.11,"end":6015.11,"text":"現在老師已經很辛苦"},{"start":6015.11,"end":6017.11,"text":"來幫忙在外加太多的時候"},{"start":6017.81,"end":6019.81,"text":"學校也已經非常辛苦了"},{"start":6019.81,"end":6021.81,"text":"想要把它處理好"},{"start":6021.81,"end":6023.81,"text":"那原來也答應這些事"},{"start":6023.81,"end":6025.81,"text":"應該已經有在裡面了"},{"start":6025.81,"end":6027.81,"text":"大概以上做補充"},{"start":6027.81,"end":6029.81,"text":"好那我們就照教育部"},{"start":6029.81,"end":6031.81,"text":"建議版本修正通過"},{"start":6032.89,"end":6034.89,"text":"好"},{"start":6034.16,"end":6036.16,"text":"那請"},{"start":6035.98,"end":6037.98,"text":"教育部內部"},{"start":6040.08,"end":6042.08,"text":"也沒有"},{"start":6041.67,"end":6043.67,"text":"要讀一下"},{"start":6043.09,"end":6045.09,"text":"對"},{"start":6044.34,"end":6046.34,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":6046.34,"end":6048.34,"text":"因為你們有提案"},{"start":6048.34,"end":6050.34,"text":"麻煩你"},{"start":6050.22,"end":6052.22,"text":"第五條"},{"start":6052.22,"end":6056.22,"text":"學校得透過辦理學校午餐推動飲食教育"},{"start":6057.08,"end":6059.08,"text":"達成下列目標"},{"start":6059,"end":6061,"text":"嗯"},{"start":6059.93,"end":6061.93,"text":"奢取"},{"start":6061.35,"end":6063.35,"text":"均衡營養"},{"start":6063.15,"end":6065.15,"text":"維持身心健康"},{"start":6065.23,"end":6067.23,"text":"好"},{"start":6066.14,"end":6068.14,"text":"培養用餐禮儀"},{"start":6068.14,"end":6070.14,"text":"並養成良好飲食習慣"},{"start":6071.22,"end":6073.22,"text":"三"},{"start":6072.38,"end":6076.38,"text":"促進對生命及自然環境之尊重"},{"start":6076.77,"end":6078.77,"text":"四"},{"start":6078.77,"end":6080.77,"text":"學習感恩習實"},{"start":6080.31,"end":6082.31,"text":"好"},{"start":6081.66,"end":6085.66,"text":"認識與尊重傳統及多元飲食文化"},{"start":6086.73,"end":6088.73,"text":"六"},{"start":6088.73,"end":6090.73,"text":"了解食材來源"},{"start":6089.8,"end":6091.8,"text":"生產加工食物選擇"},{"start":6092.95,"end":6096.95,"text":"餐飲製備過程及食品衛生安全維護"},{"start":6096.95,"end":6098.95,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6098.61,"end":6100.61,"text":"好"},{"start":6101.69,"end":6103.69,"text":"建議文字"},{"start":6103.69,"end":6105.69,"text":"好"},{"start":6105.69,"end":6107.69,"text":"那不好意思"},{"start":6107.69,"end":6109.69,"text":"因為醫師人員提醒"},{"start":6109.69,"end":6111.69,"text":"我們要處理這個補充宣告"},{"start":6111.69,"end":6117.69,"text":"委員林怡錦針對上午本院第十一屆第五會期本會第二十二次會議向本會請假列入公報記錄以上"},{"start":6117.69,"end":6119.69,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6119.69,"end":6121.69,"text":"好"},{"start":6121.69,"end":6123.69,"text":"那第六條"},{"start":6123.69,"end":6125.69,"text":"台灣民眾黨團提案"},{"start":6125.69,"end":6127.69,"text":"第十八條"},{"start":6127.69,"end":6129.69,"text":"等十個提案"},{"start":6129.69,"end":6131.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6131.69,"end":6133.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6133.69,"end":6135.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6135.69,"end":6137.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6137.69,"end":6139.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6139.69,"end":6141.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6141.69,"end":6143.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6143.69,"end":6145.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6145.69,"end":6147.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6147.69,"end":6149.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6149.69,"end":6151.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6151.69,"end":6153.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6153.69,"end":6155.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6155.69,"end":6157.69,"text":"提出"},{"start":6133.59,"end":6135.59,"text":"好請大家翻閱到第六條"},{"start":6140.05,"end":6147.05,"text":"那我們的電視螢幕還是依照教育部的建議版本"},{"start":6147.68,"end":6148.18,"text":"好來"},{"start":6149.2,"end":6151.2,"text":"是不是請委員發言"},{"start":6151.8,"end":6153.8,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就持續推進"},{"start":6153.8,"end":6155.8,"text":"來柯志銘委員"},{"start":6155.8,"end":6157.8,"text":"請委員我們盡量簡短發言"},{"start":6157.8,"end":6159.8,"text":"是我第六條其實和教育部差不多"},{"start":6159.8,"end":6161.8,"text":"但是我個人認為應該是增加"},{"start":6161.8,"end":6165.8,"text":"食材來源食品安全感恩息實"},{"start":6165.8,"end":6167.8,"text":"就是增加這幾句"},{"start":6167.8,"end":6173.8,"text":"我覺得這能夠讓這整個的條文看起來會更加的一個明確一點"},{"start":6173.8,"end":6175.8,"text":"我簡單發言"},{"start":6175.8,"end":6177.8,"text":"好是不是陳秀華委員"},{"start":6177.8,"end":6179.8,"text":"拜託拜託我們請簡短發言"},{"start":6179.8,"end":6181.8,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":6181.8,"end":6183.8,"text":"這個部分我對教育部的建議文是沒有意見"},{"start":6183.8,"end":6187.8,"text":"但是我要呼應一下柯志銘委員剛才所提的"},{"start":6187.8,"end":6191.8,"text":"那這個食材來源以及相關的這些"},{"start":6191.8,"end":6193.8,"text":"我覺得在地的學文化這個我還是滿care"},{"start":6193.8,"end":6195.8,"text":"很希望說是可以有這個部分"},{"start":6195.8,"end":6199.8,"text":"但是我尊重委員們的討論謝謝"},{"start":6199.8,"end":6201.8,"text":"好就我所知道不管是高雄或者是彰化"},{"start":6201.8,"end":6203.8,"text":"這個農產品的產銷"},{"start":6203.8,"end":6205.8,"text":"也很值得被關注"},{"start":6205.8,"end":6207.8,"text":"在地的產品"},{"start":6207.97,"end":6209.97,"text":"柯志銘委員"},{"start":6211.36,"end":6213.36,"text":"我還是要特別提"},{"start":6213.36,"end":6219.36,"text":"就是說事實上羅廷瑋召委排的這個日本營養午餐的考察"},{"start":6219.36,"end":6221.36,"text":"真的是印象非常非常深刻"},{"start":6221.36,"end":6225.36,"text":"其中也包括說今天怎麼去宣導"},{"start":6225.36,"end":6229.36,"text":"來去宣傳這個健康的一個飲食的一個習慣"},{"start":6229.36,"end":6231.36,"text":"透過營養午餐"},{"start":6231.36,"end":6233.36,"text":"所以他們有專責機構再來宣傳"},{"start":6233.36,"end":6235.36,"text":"我還記得去參訪的時候"},{"start":6235.36,"end":6237.36,"text":"他們的那個中心"},{"start":6237.36,"end":6239.36,"text":"中心有提出很多他們"},{"start":6239.36,"end":6243.36,"text":"真的很精美的一些明信片小物"},{"start":6243.36,"end":6246.36,"text":"都是在宣傳他們在地的飲食"},{"start":6246.36,"end":6249.36,"text":"然後他們也會做成一些很有趣的宣傳片"},{"start":6249.36,"end":6251.36,"text":"我舉個例子"},{"start":6251.36,"end":6253.36,"text":"那時候我們有看到他們做一個那個"},{"start":6253.36,"end":6255.36,"text":"怎麼去吃魚的"},{"start":6257.36,"end":6259.36,"text":"秋刀魚"},{"start":6259.36,"end":6261.36,"text":"如何吃魚教孩子吃"},{"start":6261.36,"end":6263.36,"text":"教秋刀魚吃的步驟1 2 3 4"},{"start":6263.36,"end":6265.36,"text":"怎麼去吃"},{"start":6265.36,"end":6267.36,"text":"教完以後在教之前"},{"start":6267.36,"end":6269.36,"text":"其實那個魚都吃不完的"},{"start":6269.36,"end":6271.36,"text":"小朋友不知道怎麼吃魚"},{"start":6271.36,"end":6273.36,"text":"就吃不完但是教完以後"},{"start":6273.36,"end":6275.36,"text":"通通乾乾淨淨"},{"start":6275.36,"end":6277.36,"text":"全部吃得乾乾淨淨"},{"start":6277.36,"end":6279.36,"text":"那我跟羅廷瑋我們有直接"},{"start":6279.36,"end":6281.36,"text":"跟小朋友一起吃營養午餐"},{"start":6281.36,"end":6283.36,"text":"我不知道你的那一班是怎麼樣"},{"start":6283.36,"end":6285.36,"text":"我們那一班我特別去看過"},{"start":6285.36,"end":6287.36,"text":"全部吃得乾乾淨淨"},{"start":6287.36,"end":6289.36,"text":"所以也沒有任何所謂的那個剩食"},{"start":6289.36,"end":6291.36,"text":"那因此"},{"start":6291.36,"end":6293.36,"text":"我認為這個所謂的"},{"start":6293.36,"end":6295.36,"text":"我們的這個相關的一個宣導"},{"start":6295.36,"end":6297.36,"text":"不只是寄望這個法律"},{"start":6297.36,"end":6299.36,"text":"執行的部分"},{"start":6299.36,"end":6301.36,"text":"我相信國教署署長那時候跟我們一起去"},{"start":6301.36,"end":6303.36,"text":"應該也收穫很多"},{"start":6303.36,"end":6305.36,"text":"執行端的部分也非常的重要"},{"start":6305.36,"end":6307.36,"text":"那怎麼樣讓營養午餐"},{"start":6307.36,"end":6309.36,"text":"它不只是提供"},{"start":6309.36,"end":6311.36,"text":"營養不只是提供"},{"start":6311.36,"end":6313.36,"text":"今天照顧也包括"},{"start":6313.36,"end":6315.36,"text":"怎麼樣是宣傳"},{"start":6315.36,"end":6317.36,"text":"健康的所謂的飲食"},{"start":6317.36,"end":6319.36,"text":"以及包括我們的"},{"start":6319.36,"end":6321.36,"text":"飲食的文化"},{"start":6321.36,"end":6323.36,"text":"這是一個非常重要的著力點以上"},{"start":6326.08,"end":6328.08,"text":"好"},{"start":6328.58,"end":6330.58,"text":"我也發言一下"},{"start":6330.58,"end":6332.58,"text":"那也感謝秀寶委員"},{"start":6332.58,"end":6334.58,"text":"柯志恩委員還有我們羅志祥委員"},{"start":6334.58,"end":6336.58,"text":"那我也是想要再呼應一下"},{"start":6336.58,"end":6338.58,"text":"他們剛剛說的啦"},{"start":6338.58,"end":6340.58,"text":"那我認為我們在上一次"},{"start":6340.58,"end":6342.58,"text":"考察日本營養午餐的時候"},{"start":6342.58,"end":6344.58,"text":"有一個很特別的案例跟大家分享"},{"start":6344.58,"end":6346.58,"text":"假設我拿秀寶委員的選區"},{"start":6346.58,"end":6348.58,"text":"假設您的選區"},{"start":6348.58,"end":6350.58,"text":"有產出一個蔬菜"},{"start":6350.77,"end":6352.77,"text":"非常量很大"},{"start":6352.77,"end":6354.77,"text":"可是孩子就不喜歡吃那個蔬菜"},{"start":6354.77,"end":6356.77,"text":"結果日本假設啦"},{"start":6356.77,"end":6358.77,"text":"因為小朋友不喜歡吃蔬菜嘛"},{"start":6358.77,"end":6360.77,"text":"那結果日本他們就說針對這項蔬菜"},{"start":6360.77,"end":6362.77,"text":"他把它做成奶酥"},{"start":6363.86,"end":6365.86,"text":"變成奶酥的那個"},{"start":6365.86,"end":6367.86,"text":"後面奶酥給孩子"},{"start":6367.86,"end":6369.86,"text":"然後加入到這個蔬菜"},{"start":6369.86,"end":6371.86,"text":"他們特別去調製這樣子的一個"},{"start":6371.86,"end":6373.86,"text":"內容讓孩子"},{"start":6373.86,"end":6375.86,"text":"一樣攝取到了這個蔬食"},{"start":6375.86,"end":6377.86,"text":"但是用不同的方式來呈現料理"},{"start":6377.86,"end":6379.86,"text":"所以我覺得在地食材的"},{"start":6379.86,"end":6381.86,"text":"一個推廣跟運用跟"},{"start":6381.86,"end":6383.86,"text":"這個部分的即時廣義有其必要性"},{"start":6383.86,"end":6385.86,"text":"那以上簡單報告是不是請教育部"},{"start":6385.86,"end":6387.86,"text":"就直接針對"},{"start":6387.86,"end":6389.86,"text":"剛剛柯志恩委員在您的版本之上"},{"start":6389.86,"end":6391.86,"text":"再多加那幾個字給予回應"},{"start":6391.86,"end":6393.86,"text":"我們就直接推進"},{"start":6394.09,"end":6396.09,"text":"謝謝昭偉"},{"start":6396.09,"end":6398.09,"text":"剛剛柯委員所提"},{"start":6398.09,"end":6400.09,"text":"那各位可以請看我們現在畫面上"},{"start":6400.09,"end":6402.09,"text":"這一個文字"},{"start":6402.2,"end":6404.2,"text":"那這個專法"},{"start":6404.2,"end":6406.2,"text":"是學校的午餐"},{"start":6406.2,"end":6408.2,"text":"再加飲食教育"},{"start":6408.9,"end":6410.9,"text":"所以飲食教育在這本專法上"},{"start":6410.9,"end":6412.9,"text":"也有一個很重要的角色"},{"start":6414.4,"end":6416.4,"text":"第六條在提的時候"},{"start":6416.4,"end":6418.4,"text":"他特別對推飲食教育的時候"},{"start":6418.4,"end":6420.4,"text":"其中有一個方法是"},{"start":6420.4,"end":6422.4,"text":"不要讓學校自己"},{"start":6422.4,"end":6424.4,"text":"獨立處理而已"},{"start":6424.4,"end":6426.4,"text":"要結合家庭社區民間團體"},{"start":6426.4,"end":6428.4,"text":"所以他是集中在飲食教育這件事"},{"start":6428.4,"end":6430.4,"text":"整體已經說明了"},{"start":6430.4,"end":6432.4,"text":"所以我們也是跟地方"},{"start":6432.4,"end":6434.4,"text":"跟老師都處理好"},{"start":6434.4,"end":6436.4,"text":"說如果推飲食教育"},{"start":6436.4,"end":6438.4,"text":"大概就是"},{"start":6438.4,"end":6440.4,"text":"這裡主要去談"},{"start":6440.4,"end":6442.4,"text":"這一些一起來努力"},{"start":6442.4,"end":6444.4,"text":"不再多談主題的話"},{"start":6444.4,"end":6446.4,"text":"這樣其實已經整體性足夠"},{"start":6446.4,"end":6448.4,"text":"那這裡多提的是"},{"start":6448.4,"end":6450.4,"text":"我們大家怎麼結合重力"},{"start":6450.4,"end":6452.4,"text":"大概是合力推動的概念"},{"start":6452.4,"end":6454.4,"text":"比較不是涉及到推主題"},{"start":6454.4,"end":6456.4,"text":"因為主題已經在上面有寫過了"},{"start":6456.4,"end":6458.4,"text":"是不是尊重"},{"start":6458.4,"end":6460.4,"text":"這個現場的老師"},{"start":6460.4,"end":6462.4,"text":"已經有在第五條的"},{"start":6462.4,"end":6464.4,"text":"內容上已經有"},{"start":6464.4,"end":6466.4,"text":"完整的討論"},{"start":6466.4,"end":6468.4,"text":"第六條主要是"},{"start":6468.4,"end":6470.4,"text":"在推的時候能夠結合一些"},{"start":6470.4,"end":6472.4,"text":"大家的力量"},{"start":6472.4,"end":6474.4,"text":"大概是"},{"start":6474.4,"end":6476.4,"text":"條文的分布上是這樣"},{"start":6476.4,"end":6478.4,"text":"第五條講的是主題"},{"start":6478.4,"end":6480.4,"text":"剛剛已經有討論過"},{"start":6480.4,"end":6482.4,"text":"第六條講的是結合重力"},{"start":6482.4,"end":6484.4,"text":"而不是在這裡再多談一些主題"},{"start":6484.4,"end":6486.4,"text":"他已經講得很清楚"},{"start":6486.4,"end":6488.4,"text":"本專法是飲食教育"},{"start":6488.4,"end":6490.4,"text":"所以在推飲食教育的時候"},{"start":6490.4,"end":6492.4,"text":"應該要結合大家的力量"},{"start":6492.4,"end":6494.4,"text":"就不再又外加一些主題"},{"start":6494.4,"end":6496.4,"text":"因為主題已經在第五條講了"},{"start":6496.4,"end":6498.4,"text":"大家會確定第五條的主題"},{"start":6498.4,"end":6500.4,"text":"也是大家在工作上"},{"start":6500.4,"end":6502.4,"text":"也認同這麼多年來"},{"start":6502.4,"end":6504.4,"text":"大家都在努力這個方向"},{"start":6504.4,"end":6506.4,"text":"所以以上是跟地方"},{"start":6506.4,"end":6508.4,"text":"還有一些專家請議之後的條文"},{"start":6508.4,"end":6510.4,"text":"請委員會"},{"start":6510.4,"end":6512.4,"text":"再給我們指導"},{"start":6512.4,"end":6514.4,"text":"柯志銳委員"},{"start":6514.4,"end":6516.4,"text":"在葉運志委員"},{"start":6516.4,"end":6518.4,"text":"這一條純粹為什麼要特別提出"},{"start":6518.4,"end":6520.4,"text":"食材來源跟食品安全"},{"start":6520.4,"end":6522.4,"text":"還有息食"},{"start":6522.4,"end":6524.4,"text":"我不曉得署長你說怎麼"},{"start":6524.4,"end":6526.4,"text":"呼應第五條裡面"},{"start":6526.4,"end":6528.4,"text":"已經在目標提出來"},{"start":6528.4,"end":6530.4,"text":"我沒有看到你是哪一條裡面"},{"start":6530.4,"end":6532.4,"text":"因為我們只是因為依目前來說"},{"start":6532.4,"end":6534.4,"text":"大家認為食材跟食安"},{"start":6534.4,"end":6536.4,"text":"是非常的重要"},{"start":6536.4,"end":6538.4,"text":"所以反而是在這裡面去"},{"start":6538.4,"end":6540.4,"text":"強化這樣的一個概念"},{"start":6540.4,"end":6542.4,"text":"那我覺得這個強化概念跟教育部本身的"},{"start":6542.4,"end":6544.4,"text":"一個版本裡面並沒有互相的違和"},{"start":6544.4,"end":6546.4,"text":"只是透過這幾個字句裡面"},{"start":6546.4,"end":6548.4,"text":"更強化它的一個重要性"},{"start":6548.4,"end":6550.4,"text":"那你剛剛說是"},{"start":6550.4,"end":6552.4,"text":"跟第五條裡面的目標"},{"start":6552.4,"end":6554.4,"text":"已經完全詢問在食安跟"},{"start":6554.4,"end":6556.4,"text":"食材的部分"},{"start":6556.4,"end":6558.4,"text":"在第五條哪個層面上面已經達到這樣的一個目標了"},{"start":6558.4,"end":6560.4,"text":"是的"},{"start":6560.4,"end":6562.4,"text":"那請委員看一下剛剛所通過的第五條"},{"start":6562.4,"end":6564.4,"text":"第五條裡面"},{"start":6564.4,"end":6566.4,"text":"有提到"},{"start":6566.4,"end":6568.4,"text":"可不可以上一頁"},{"start":6567.71,"end":6569.71,"text":"天府上一頁"},{"start":6570.53,"end":6572.53,"text":"一開始就開宗明義說"},{"start":6572.53,"end":6574.53,"text":"要推飲食教育"},{"start":6574.53,"end":6576.53,"text":"所以第五條推飲食教育"},{"start":6576.53,"end":6578.53,"text":"跟第六條都推飲食教育"},{"start":6578.53,"end":6580.53,"text":"第五條講推飲食教育的六件事情"},{"start":6580.53,"end":6582.53,"text":"第六條是增加推飲食教育"},{"start":6582.53,"end":6584.53,"text":"是不要學校自己處理而已"},{"start":6584.53,"end":6586.53,"text":"好那第五條"},{"start":6586.53,"end":6588.53,"text":"剛剛委員有請教到說"},{"start":6588.53,"end":6590.53,"text":"其實在食安在第六的尾巴"},{"start":6590.53,"end":6592.53,"text":"大概是這樣"},{"start":6592.96,"end":6594.96,"text":"所以內容上"},{"start":6594.96,"end":6596.96,"text":"是放在第五條"},{"start":6596.96,"end":6598.96,"text":"那大家也同意不要一直增加"},{"start":6598.96,"end":6600.96,"text":"因為已經滿完整了"},{"start":6600.96,"end":6602.96,"text":"第六條是講要增加一些"},{"start":6602.96,"end":6604.96,"text":"大家合力的可能的單位"},{"start":6604.96,"end":6606.96,"text":"大概是佈局上是這樣"},{"start":6606.96,"end":6608.96,"text":"請大家請各位委員再給我們指導參考"},{"start":6608.96,"end":6610.96,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6611.76,"end":6613.76,"text":"來 葉子"},{"start":6613.95,"end":6615.95,"text":"各位委員"},{"start":6615.06,"end":6617.06,"text":"我看這個第五條 第六條大概意思是"},{"start":6617.06,"end":6619.06,"text":"第六條"},{"start":6619.06,"end":6621.06,"text":"是希望說辦理第五項目標的時候"},{"start":6621.06,"end":6623.06,"text":"應該要一些做法"},{"start":6623.06,"end":6625.06,"text":"而且提到就是說會對於"},{"start":6625.06,"end":6627.06,"text":"合作的單位會進行一些"},{"start":6627.06,"end":6629.06,"text":"協助跟獎勵 大概是這樣"},{"start":6629.06,"end":6631.06,"text":"但是我覺得有些文字"},{"start":6631.06,"end":6633.06,"text":"訂的不是很清楚耶"},{"start":6633.06,"end":6635.06,"text":"因為他說應結合家庭與社區"},{"start":6635.06,"end":6637.06,"text":"及民間團體之能力及資源"},{"start":6637.06,"end":6639.06,"text":"那"},{"start":6639.03,"end":6641.03,"text":"請問社區跟民間團體要怎麼"},{"start":6642.22,"end":6644.22,"text":"這個會不會有重疊地方"},{"start":6644.22,"end":6646.22,"text":"或是有一些民間團體"},{"start":6646.22,"end":6648.22,"text":"也在社區裡面嘛"},{"start":6648.22,"end":6650.22,"text":"所以你這樣訂的話"},{"start":6650.22,"end":6652.22,"text":"到時候學校因為前面有寫因"},{"start":6652.22,"end":6654.22,"text":"那學校在辦活動的時候就會想說"},{"start":6654.22,"end":6656.22,"text":"那家庭的部分是什麼 那我還要去想一個社區"},{"start":6656.22,"end":6658.22,"text":"然後再找一個民間團體"},{"start":6658.22,"end":6660.22,"text":"我覺得有點複雜啦"},{"start":6659.94,"end":6661.94,"text":"那我原本我的條文"},{"start":6661.94,"end":6663.94,"text":"是直接把它寫成就是家庭跟"},{"start":6663.94,"end":6665.94,"text":"社會人力資源 其實社會人力資源"},{"start":6665.94,"end":6669.94,"text":"就是韓瓜社區跟民間團體"},{"start":6669.94,"end":6671.94,"text":"這樣的一個"},{"start":6671.94,"end":6673.94,"text":"定義可能我認為比較清楚"},{"start":6673.94,"end":6675.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6676.86,"end":6678.86,"text":"好 那我們來看一下文字喔"},{"start":6681.45,"end":6683.45,"text":"針對葉志委員呢"},{"start":6683.45,"end":6685.45,"text":"我們簡短回應好不好 請教一步"},{"start":6685.45,"end":6687.45,"text":"我簡短回應 謝謝趙委"},{"start":6687.45,"end":6689.45,"text":"所謂社區是指"},{"start":6689.45,"end":6691.45,"text":"他這個學校所在的包含鄰里等等"},{"start":6691.45,"end":6693.45,"text":"常常會有一些"},{"start":6693.45,"end":6695.45,"text":"相關的從"},{"start":6695.45,"end":6697.45,"text":"種植到甚至到最後"},{"start":6697.45,"end":6699.45,"text":"在餐桌上 這樣子在社區上"},{"start":6699.45,"end":6701.45,"text":"就能夠完成 所謂民間團體"},{"start":6701.45,"end":6703.45,"text":"是有時候我們會去跟"},{"start":6703.45,"end":6705.45,"text":"民間團體合辦一些比較"},{"start":6705.45,"end":6707.45,"text":"其他的活動 例如"},{"start":6707.45,"end":6709.45,"text":"會讓廚師能夠精進"},{"start":6709.45,"end":6711.45,"text":"廚藝 廚師來精進廚藝等等"},{"start":6711.45,"end":6713.45,"text":"那個可能"},{"start":6713.45,"end":6715.45,"text":"有時候不一定是社區"},{"start":6715.45,"end":6717.45,"text":"直接跟孩子做了剛剛那個活動"},{"start":6717.45,"end":6719.45,"text":"所以這裡可能"},{"start":6719.45,"end":6721.45,"text":"經由專家的提醒是"},{"start":6721.45,"end":6723.45,"text":"多個面向可以在學校"},{"start":6723.45,"end":6725.45,"text":"進行飲食教育 它的豐富度"},{"start":6725.45,"end":6727.45,"text":"以第五條來看"},{"start":6727.45,"end":6729.45,"text":"它的六個面向蠻豐富的"},{"start":6729.45,"end":6731.45,"text":"所以當時就有這樣"},{"start":6731.45,"end":6733.45,"text":"可以就近的結合社區"},{"start":6733.45,"end":6735.45,"text":"也可以結合專家的"},{"start":6735.45,"end":6737.45,"text":"民間的團體的力量"},{"start":6737.45,"end":6739.45,"text":"所以說從整體的社會"},{"start":6739.45,"end":6741.45,"text":"人力資源 應該"},{"start":6741.45,"end":6743.45,"text":"也是一個好方向"},{"start":6743.45,"end":6745.45,"text":"原來的建議是讓它"},{"start":6745.45,"end":6747.45,"text":"在好方向的同時稍微的提示"},{"start":6747.45,"end":6749.45,"text":"清楚一點 讓學校在工作的時候"},{"start":6749.45,"end":6751.45,"text":"有一個方向 以上補充"},{"start":6753.44,"end":6755.44,"text":"好 那我們是不是就先看一下"},{"start":6756.88,"end":6758.88,"text":"我們的教育部的文字"},{"start":6759.14,"end":6761.14,"text":"那請教育部"},{"start":6761.98,"end":6763.98,"text":"這個部分我們就依照教育部的版本"},{"start":6765.99,"end":6767.99,"text":"好 請教育部宣讀一下 謝謝"},{"start":6768.75,"end":6770.75,"text":"第六條"},{"start":6770.11,"end":6772.11,"text":"學校依前條規定"},{"start":6772.11,"end":6774.11,"text":"推動飲食教育時"},{"start":6774.09,"end":6776.09,"text":"應結合家庭與社區"},{"start":6776.09,"end":6778.09,"text":"及民間團體之人力及資源"},{"start":6780.59,"end":6784.59,"text":"辦理健康飲食及建立正確飲食生活習慣等相關活動"},{"start":6786.7,"end":6788.7,"text":"主管機關對於推動飲食教育之學校機構"},{"start":6791.17,"end":6793.17,"text":"民間團體及人員"},{"start":6793.17,"end":6795.17,"text":"應予協助及獎勵"},{"start":6798.34,"end":6800.34,"text":"好"},{"start":6799.83,"end":6801.83,"text":"那是不是我們就依照"},{"start":6803.49,"end":6805.49,"text":"教育部的建議文字修正通過"},{"start":6805.49,"end":6807.49,"text":"教育部的版本"},{"start":6807.49,"end":6809.49,"text":"那謝謝"},{"start":6808.18,"end":6810.18,"text":"下一個"},{"start":6810.14,"end":6812.14,"text":"第七條"},{"start":6812.14,"end":6814.14,"text":"委員柯志恩等21人提案"},{"start":6814.14,"end":6816.14,"text":"第四條等11個提案"},{"start":6816.14,"end":6818.14,"text":"以及委員羅庭瑋柯志恩等人所提修正動議"},{"start":6820.7,"end":6822.7,"text":"我們看到第七條"},{"start":6825.26,"end":6827.26,"text":"這部分是不是直接請我們的教育部就說明了"},{"start":6827.26,"end":6829.26,"text":"因為這比較單純"},{"start":6829.26,"end":6831.26,"text":"好"},{"start":6831.26,"end":6833.26,"text":"那因為委員的提案版本"},{"start":6833.26,"end":6835.26,"text":"剛才柯委員也說是一樣"},{"start":6835.26,"end":6837.26,"text":"是不是就請委員"},{"start":6837.16,"end":6839.16,"text":"請召委確認"},{"start":6839.94,"end":6841.94,"text":"好"},{"start":6841.95,"end":6843.95,"text":"這個我代勞了"},{"start":6843.95,"end":6845.95,"text":"第七條學校與學期間學生到校日"},{"start":6845.95,"end":6847.95,"text":"以供應學生午餐為原則"},{"start":6847.95,"end":6849.95,"text":"海鼠假期間"},{"start":6849.95,"end":6851.95,"text":"學校得勢需要供應學生午餐"},{"start":6855.65,"end":6857.65,"text":"好"},{"start":6857.65,"end":6859.65,"text":"就照教育部修正的通過"},{"start":6859.65,"end":6861.65,"text":"教育部建議的文字"},{"start":6861.65,"end":6863.65,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6862.65,"end":6864.65,"text":"我們持續推進喔"},{"start":6868.71,"end":6870.71,"text":"第八條台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":6870.71,"end":6872.71,"text":"第八條等36個提案以及委員"},{"start":6872.71,"end":6874.71,"text":"羅庭瑋柯志恩等人所提的修正動議"},{"start":6876.75,"end":6878.75,"text":"好第八條"},{"start":6884.91,"end":6886.91,"text":"來柯志恩委員請說"},{"start":6886.91,"end":6888.91,"text":"我覺得第八條其實跟教育部也是一樣"},{"start":6888.91,"end":6890.91,"text":"只是我覺得在第二項的最後幾句話上面"},{"start":6890.91,"end":6892.91,"text":"如果可以把它改的"},{"start":6892.91,"end":6894.91,"text":"做一些文字修訂會更好"},{"start":6894.91,"end":6896.91,"text":"像我就可以念一下"},{"start":6896.91,"end":6898.91,"text":"除依前項規定方式辦理外"},{"start":6898.91,"end":6904.91,"text":"並得經學校午餐供應會或相關會議決議"},{"start":6904.91,"end":6906.91,"text":"以其他適當方式辦理"},{"start":6909.75,"end":6911.75,"text":"我覺得文字的修正可以變成這樣"},{"start":6911.75,"end":6913.75,"text":"不曉得教育部的意見如何"},{"start":6913.75,"end":6915.75,"text":"我再說一次喔"},{"start":6915.75,"end":6917.75,"text":"並得經學校午餐供應會或相關會議決議"},{"start":6917.75,"end":6919.75,"text":"以其他適當方式辦理"},{"start":6919.75,"end":6921.75,"text":"意指都一樣"},{"start":6921.75,"end":6923.75,"text":"只是文字比較"},{"start":6923.75,"end":6925.75,"text":"我覺得比較洗練一點"},{"start":6926.76,"end":6928.76,"text":"好 哲修馬委員"},{"start":6928.74,"end":6930.74,"text":"部長您要回應是不是"},{"start":6930.74,"end":6932.74,"text":"就柯委員"},{"start":6932.74,"end":6934.74,"text":"他一次去掉"},{"start":6934.78,"end":6936.78,"text":"好 那請我們現場的螢幕稍微修整一下"},{"start":6936.78,"end":6938.78,"text":"教育部目前同意喔"},{"start":6939.55,"end":6941.55,"text":"並得經"},{"start":6943.64,"end":6947.64,"text":"並得經學校午餐供應會或相關會議決議"},{"start":6947.64,"end":6949.64,"text":"以其他適當方式辦理"},{"start":6951.6,"end":6953.6,"text":"以其他"},{"start":6955.91,"end":6957.91,"text":"適當方式"},{"start":6958.34,"end":6960.34,"text":"辦理 OK"},{"start":6960.11,"end":6962.11,"text":"秀巴委員請說"},{"start":6962.23,"end":6964.23,"text":"在這個部分"},{"start":6964.23,"end":6966.23,"text":"這第八條嘛"},{"start":6966.23,"end":6968.23,"text":"在我的部分呢對應是我的版本裡面是第十條"},{"start":6968.23,"end":6970.23,"text":"那我在我的版本裡面"},{"start":6970.23,"end":6972.23,"text":"有針對第三項及第十項"},{"start":6972.23,"end":6974.23,"text":"是希望說廚房及相關設備設置"},{"start":6974.23,"end":6976.23,"text":"跟修繕呢"},{"start":6976.23,"end":6978.23,"text":"應該先考量資源永續跟環境的安全"},{"start":6978.23,"end":6980.23,"text":"另外也訂定說"},{"start":6980.23,"end":6982.23,"text":"要得設置"},{"start":6982.23,"end":6984.23,"text":"獨立用餐空間"},{"start":6984.23,"end":6986.23,"text":"的這個規定喔"},{"start":6986.23,"end":6988.23,"text":"廚房的設備永續的部分"},{"start":6988.23,"end":6990.23,"text":"本席就認為說這是蠻重要"},{"start":6990.23,"end":6992.23,"text":"那廚房的修繕及經費也會有一些影響"},{"start":6992.23,"end":6994.23,"text":"那這個部分是不是教育部你們可以參查一下"},{"start":6994.23,"end":6996.23,"text":"那這個部分是不是教育部你們可以參查一下"},{"start":6996.23,"end":6998.23,"text":"就是說在這個"},{"start":6998.23,"end":7000.23,"text":"就是廚房的設施設備的部分"},{"start":7000.23,"end":7002.23,"text":"那設置獨立用餐空間這個部分本席是覺得說"},{"start":7002.23,"end":7004.23,"text":"各校可以自行評估"},{"start":7004.23,"end":7006.23,"text":"因為有的學校的空間可能"},{"start":7006.23,"end":7008.23,"text":"因為有的學校的空間可能"},{"start":7008.23,"end":7010.23,"text":"有沒有辦法這樣子設置"},{"start":7010.23,"end":7012.23,"text":"這個我沒有堅持一定要入法"},{"start":7012.23,"end":7014.23,"text":"但是在廚房設備的部分"},{"start":7014.23,"end":7016.23,"text":"是不是大家可以討論一下"},{"start":7016.23,"end":7018.23,"text":"以上"},{"start":7017.69,"end":7019.69,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7019.69,"end":7021.69,"text":"那教育部是不是我們就利用這樣子的一個"},{"start":7023.37,"end":7025.37,"text":"文字"},{"start":7025.92,"end":7027.92,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":7031.67,"end":7033.67,"text":"意見"},{"start":7033.48,"end":7035.48,"text":"可以啊可以啊"},{"start":7035.48,"end":7037.48,"text":"你要納入我當然沒問題"},{"start":7037.48,"end":7039.48,"text":"剛剛修法委員的意見我請教一下"},{"start":7039.48,"end":7041.48,"text":"修法委員意見是說"},{"start":7041.18,"end":7043.18,"text":"主實啊"},{"start":7042.93,"end":7044.93,"text":"廚房的部分學校都要設"},{"start":7046.37,"end":7048.37,"text":"好"},{"start":7049.83,"end":7051.83,"text":"OK"},{"start":7050.64,"end":7052.64,"text":"是有的學校是有自設廚房"},{"start":7052.64,"end":7053.64,"text":"有的沒有"},{"start":7053.64,"end":7055.64,"text":"那如果他是有自設廚房的學校"},{"start":7055.64,"end":7059.64,"text":"所以這個廚房跟相關設備的這個修繕更新是不是"},{"start":7059.64,"end":7061.64,"text":"就是考量是在"},{"start":7061.64,"end":7064.64,"text":"資源永續跟環境的安全這個部分"},{"start":7068.31,"end":7070.31,"text":"這個設計到"},{"start":7070.52,"end":7072.52,"text":"委員是說對他"},{"start":7072.52,"end":7074.52,"text":"做補助呢還是說"},{"start":7074.52,"end":7076.52,"text":"他在"},{"start":7076.17,"end":7080.17,"text":"主食東西的時候要注意資源永續的這種"},{"start":7080.17,"end":7084.17,"text":"飲食或是餐桌的觀念"},{"start":7084.17,"end":7086.17,"text":"還設備的"},{"start":7086.16,"end":7088.16,"text":"廚具設備本身"},{"start":7088.31,"end":7090.31,"text":"我們有些補助是在第九條以後"},{"start":7090.31,"end":7092.31,"text":"好"},{"start":7092.31,"end":7094.31,"text":"如果要講補助是在那邊"},{"start":7094.31,"end":7096.31,"text":"那這邊比較講是整體的公餐形式"},{"start":7096.31,"end":7098.31,"text":"並且給高中一個彈性大概是這樣"},{"start":7098.31,"end":7100.31,"text":"好"},{"start":7100.31,"end":7102.31,"text":"那我來念一次喔"},{"start":7102.31,"end":7104.31,"text":"第八條學校供應學生午餐得以下列方式辦理"},{"start":7104.31,"end":7106.31,"text":"一自設廚房供應學生午餐"},{"start":7106.31,"end":7108.31,"text":"以下簡稱自辦午餐"},{"start":7110.95,"end":7112.95,"text":"二 由鄰近學校供應學生午餐"},{"start":7112.95,"end":7114.95,"text":"三 自設廚房委外辦理學校午餐"},{"start":7114.95,"end":7116.95,"text":"四 外訂和統餐"},{"start":7119.78,"end":7121.78,"text":"高級中等學校供應學生午餐"},{"start":7121.78,"end":7123.78,"text":"除以前項規定之方式辦理外"},{"start":7123.78,"end":7125.78,"text":"並得經學校午餐供應會或相關會議決議"},{"start":7125.78,"end":7127.78,"text":"以其他適當方式辦理"},{"start":7138.76,"end":7140.76,"text":"好"},{"start":7142.86,"end":7144.86,"text":"對對對"},{"start":7144.86,"end":7146.86,"text":"好 我們今天剛剛所念的修正通過"},{"start":7148.25,"end":7150.25,"text":"好 第九條"},{"start":7155.82,"end":7157.82,"text":"好 第九條就是我們今天重中之重了"},{"start":7157.82,"end":7159.82,"text":"那也歡迎大家提出您的想法"},{"start":7161.93,"end":7163.93,"text":"那我先請陳秀芳委員發言"},{"start":7165.73,"end":7167.73,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7167.73,"end":7169.73,"text":"這個第九條的部分對應到我自己的版本"},{"start":7169.73,"end":7171.73,"text":"是放在17條"},{"start":7171.73,"end":7173.73,"text":"那剛才我在第八條的時候講到這個"},{"start":7173.73,"end":7175.73,"text":"廚房設備的部分"},{"start":7175.73,"end":7177.73,"text":"那署長有回答說應該是放在第九條來討論"},{"start":7177.73,"end":7181.73,"text":"因為相關的這個偏遠地區或者說一些"},{"start":7181.73,"end":7183.73,"text":"一些"},{"start":7184.61,"end":7188.61,"text":"有些設備呢這個中央主管機關的補助是放在這個部分"},{"start":7188.61,"end":7192.61,"text":"那在這裡呢我想要表達的就是說"},{"start":7192.61,"end":7194.61,"text":"我們學校飲食的辦理"},{"start":7194.61,"end":7198.61,"text":"其實主要還是仰賴各地方政府的高度自治"},{"start":7198.61,"end":7200.61,"text":"那因此呢我覺得相關的經費的細項"},{"start":7200.61,"end":7202.61,"text":"如果在模仿上訂定"},{"start":7202.61,"end":7206.61,"text":"其實有時候跟各縣市政府他們本身的自主"},{"start":7206.61,"end":7212.61,"text":"跟他們跟學校之間他們有一些所需要調整的部分"},{"start":7212.61,"end":7214.61,"text":"如果在模仿上訂定了之後"},{"start":7214.61,"end":7218.61,"text":"那如果他們有要做一些調整"},{"start":7218.61,"end":7222.61,"text":"或是他們本身他們自己在經費上有餘裕想要做的調整"},{"start":7222.61,"end":7224.61,"text":"是不是會就變成受限了"},{"start":7224.61,"end":7227.61,"text":"那現在那個中央補助有關學校飲食的部分"},{"start":7227.61,"end":7229.61,"text":"主要還是有弱勢跟偏鄉為主喔"},{"start":7229.61,"end":7231.61,"text":"所以以這個部分呢"},{"start":7231.61,"end":7233.61,"text":"我是支持教育部的版本"},{"start":7233.61,"end":7235.61,"text":"以上"},{"start":7237.72,"end":7239.72,"text":"好 再來柯志文委員再來郭議員"},{"start":7241.6,"end":7243.6,"text":"好 承儒大家知道喔"},{"start":7243.6,"end":7245.6,"text":"其實這整部的營養午餐法"},{"start":7245.6,"end":7247.6,"text":"就是第九條跟第十四條是最重要的嘛"},{"start":7247.6,"end":7249.6,"text":"那第九條來講"},{"start":7249.6,"end":7251.6,"text":"我們就是牽涉到裁員跟補助喔"},{"start":7251.6,"end":7253.6,"text":"我覺得真的只要有中央補助"},{"start":7253.6,"end":7255.6,"text":"我們地方都非常樂意喔"},{"start":7255.6,"end":7257.6,"text":"但是實在是沒有辦法"},{"start":7257.6,"end":7259.6,"text":"所以我們來看看怎麼樣可以讓這個"},{"start":7259.6,"end":7261.6,"text":"所謂比較裁員缺乏的這個縣市"},{"start":7261.6,"end":7263.6,"text":"也能夠得到有好的營養午餐"},{"start":7263.6,"end":7265.6,"text":"所以第九條的第一項當中喔"},{"start":7265.6,"end":7267.6,"text":"除了由主管機關補助這邊"},{"start":7267.6,"end":7269.6,"text":"其收費機制補助"},{"start":7269.6,"end":7271.6,"text":"額度"},{"start":7271.6,"end":7273.6,"text":"我又增加了一個補助項目"},{"start":7273.6,"end":7275.6,"text":"以及其他相關事項"},{"start":7275.6,"end":7277.6,"text":"所以我增加了"},{"start":7277.6,"end":7279.6,"text":"在第一項部分呢"},{"start":7279.6,"end":7281.6,"text":"除了額度之外呢"},{"start":7281.6,"end":7283.6,"text":"我還加入了補助項目"},{"start":7283.6,"end":7285.6,"text":"這個很重要"},{"start":7285.6,"end":7287.6,"text":"然後第二項的部分呢"},{"start":7287.6,"end":7289.6,"text":"其實是我們就增加了"},{"start":7289.6,"end":7291.6,"text":"前項學生午餐費之"},{"start":7291.6,"end":7293.6,"text":"費額考量因素決定程序物價"},{"start":7293.6,"end":7295.6,"text":"及我這邊有特別"},{"start":7295.6,"end":7297.6,"text":"增加的食材成本變動"},{"start":7297.6,"end":7299.6,"text":"因為這個部分呢就是"},{"start":7299.6,"end":7301.6,"text":"過去沒有提到但是我覺得"},{"start":7301.6,"end":7303.6,"text":"食材成本的變動其實會影響"},{"start":7303.6,"end":7305.6,"text":"很多所以在第二項的部分"},{"start":7305.6,"end":7307.6,"text":"裡面增加的食材成本的變動"},{"start":7307.6,"end":7309.6,"text":"那第三項呢是跟教育部"},{"start":7309.6,"end":7311.6,"text":"完全一致喔第三項我們就"},{"start":7311.6,"end":7313.6,"text":"不要做任何的一個修改"},{"start":7313.6,"end":7315.6,"text":"第五項也完全一致也不用做"},{"start":7315.6,"end":7317.6,"text":"修改我們增加的是非常"},{"start":7317.6,"end":7319.6,"text":"重要就是第四項"},{"start":7319.6,"end":7321.6,"text":"我們特別增加的第四項就是"},{"start":7321.6,"end":7323.6,"text":"前項補助的包括"},{"start":7323.6,"end":7325.6,"text":"學生餐費"},{"start":7325.6,"end":7327.6,"text":"食材可塑食材與在地食材採用"},{"start":7327.6,"end":7329.6,"text":"食材運銷"},{"start":7329.6,"end":7331.6,"text":"廚房設備營養師學校午餐"},{"start":7331.6,"end":7333.6,"text":"執行秘書廚房人員及其他"},{"start":7333.6,"end":7335.6,"text":"必要支持人力或措施"},{"start":7335.6,"end":7337.6,"text":"或許你們會認為這裡面"},{"start":7337.6,"end":7339.6,"text":"把它寫到這個法裡面有點"},{"start":7339.6,"end":7341.6,"text":"有一點太過瑣碎"},{"start":7341.6,"end":7343.6,"text":"但無論如何我只是要表達"},{"start":7343.6,"end":7345.6,"text":"這些的補助必須要包含"},{"start":7345.6,"end":7347.6,"text":"這些至於你是要放在這個"},{"start":7347.6,"end":7349.6,"text":"地方或是額外用辦法我都尊重"},{"start":7349.6,"end":7351.6,"text":"但是我還是強調"},{"start":7351.6,"end":7353.6,"text":"這些補助必須要涵蓋這些"},{"start":7353.6,"end":7355.6,"text":"因為這才是整個讓"},{"start":7355.6,"end":7357.6,"text":"整部營養午餐得以"},{"start":7357.6,"end":7359.6,"text":"順利還有呼應全國"},{"start":7359.6,"end":7361.6,"text":"營養師公會裡面大家的一個需求"},{"start":7361.6,"end":7363.6,"text":"所以請教育部在這個精神"},{"start":7363.6,"end":7365.6,"text":"上面去給予最大的一個尊重"},{"start":7368.9,"end":7370.9,"text":"好我們接下來是不是"},{"start":7370.9,"end":7372.9,"text":"國籍委員"},{"start":7372.9,"end":7374.9,"text":"這個部分我的版本是放在"},{"start":7374.9,"end":7376.9,"text":"這個第五條"},{"start":7376.9,"end":7378.9,"text":"對應到我的這個第五條"},{"start":7378.9,"end":7380.9,"text":"我要在這邊要特別說明"},{"start":7380.9,"end":7382.9,"text":"我看到部分委員提出的版本"},{"start":7382.9,"end":7384.9,"text":"要中央地方各負擔1%的"},{"start":7384.9,"end":7386.9,"text":"這個主張這個有可能"},{"start":7386.9,"end":7388.9,"text":"會產生的一個狀況就是像"},{"start":7388.9,"end":7390.9,"text":"台北市這些比較資源"},{"start":7390.9,"end":7392.9,"text":"比較多的"},{"start":7392.9,"end":7394.9,"text":"益住的這樣子的一個"},{"start":7394.9,"end":7396.9,"text":"多會其實是比較"},{"start":7396.9,"end":7398.9,"text":"不符合所謂的這個公平正義"},{"start":7398.9,"end":7400.9,"text":"那從才化法修正之後"},{"start":7400.9,"end":7402.9,"text":"其實才權已經給了地方"},{"start":7402.9,"end":7404.9,"text":"那理當其實應該也要"},{"start":7404.9,"end":7406.9,"text":"承擔事權的一個部分"},{"start":7406.9,"end":7408.9,"text":"那這個時候如果說"},{"start":7408.9,"end":7410.9,"text":"這個參費要由中央跟地方"},{"start":7410.9,"end":7412.9,"text":"在各分擔1%"},{"start":7412.9,"end":7414.9,"text":"那按照這樣子的一個邏輯"},{"start":7414.9,"end":7416.9,"text":"在各個縣市其實他們參費"},{"start":7416.9,"end":7418.9,"text":"不一定的一個狀況之下"},{"start":7418.9,"end":7420.9,"text":"我舉例來講如果是台北市"},{"start":7420.9,"end":7422.9,"text":"國中75塊"},{"start":7422.9,"end":7424.9,"text":"那雲林縣國中50元"},{"start":7424.9,"end":7426.9,"text":"那中央又要負責分擔這個"},{"start":7426.9,"end":7428.9,"text":"台北市的學生大概37.5"},{"start":7428.9,"end":7430.9,"text":"那雲林縣的這個學生"},{"start":7430.9,"end":7432.9,"text":"是25元"},{"start":7432.9,"end":7434.9,"text":"那我想這個是會有一些公平性的"},{"start":7434.9,"end":7436.9,"text":"一個問題所以中央的這個預算"},{"start":7436.9,"end":7438.9,"text":"應該要精準的益住"},{"start":7438.9,"end":7440.9,"text":"在這個偏遠跟弱勢的一個學生"},{"start":7440.9,"end":7442.9,"text":"來落實這個餐桌上的一個平權"},{"start":7442.9,"end":7444.9,"text":"那這是我對應到"},{"start":7444.9,"end":7446.9,"text":"我自己版本的第五條"},{"start":7446.9,"end":7448.9,"t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75.52,"end":7677.52,"text":"也不一定很清楚"},{"start":7677.99,"end":7679.99,"text":"要不然在母法這邊"},{"start":7679.99,"end":7681.99,"text":"講的是一個概念"},{"start":7681.65,"end":7683.65,"text":"要做什麼事"},{"start":7683.65,"end":7685.65,"text":"本委員會或立法院跟行政院"},{"start":7685.65,"end":7687.65,"text":"高度講一個國家未來怎麼保障"},{"start":7687.65,"end":7689.65,"text":"孩子的吃跟各縣市的吃"},{"start":7689.95,"end":7691.95,"text":"那條文授權"},{"start":7691.95,"end":7693.95,"text":"定辦法讓這一部分"},{"start":7693.95,"end":7695.95,"text":"因為未來時可能會有點變遷"},{"start":7695.95,"end":7697.95,"text":"由教育部跟地方"},{"start":7697.95,"end":7699.95,"text":"好好的會商"},{"start":7700.3,"end":7702.3,"text":"所以這一些概念"},{"start":7702.3,"end":7704.3,"text":"定了以後"},{"start":7704.3,"end":7706.3,"text":"留一個詞法當尾巴來做會商的依據"},{"start":7706.3,"end":7708.3,"text":"當作一個母法授權"},{"start":7708.3,"end":7710.3,"text":"讓我們來操作這個細節"},{"start":7710.3,"end":7712.3,"text":"而不要在母法"},{"start":7712.3,"end":7714.3,"text":"定了一些可能目前"},{"start":7714.3,"end":7716.3,"text":"有多像在現況上"},{"start":7716.3,"end":7718.3,"text":"我們如果講開來會"},{"start":7718.3,"end":7720.3,"text":"跟現況的運作會有一點點"},{"start":7720.3,"end":7722.3,"text":"不那麼的直接"},{"start":7722.3,"end":7724.3,"text":"好操作"},{"start":7724.3,"end":7726.3,"text":"是不是容許這個彈性"},{"start":7726.3,"end":7728.3,"text":"以上在最重要的"},{"start":7728.3,"end":7730.3,"text":"剛剛科委員所提版本的"},{"start":7730.3,"end":7732.3,"text":"三四項做一個更明確的回應"},{"start":7732.3,"end":7734.3,"text":"以上補充"},{"start":7735.08,"end":7737.08,"text":"林志偉委員你要發言嗎"},{"start":7738.94,"end":7740.94,"text":"好"},{"start":7741.23,"end":7743.23,"text":"科委員呢"},{"start":7744.71,"end":7746.71,"text":"所以教育部是用你們的版本"},{"start":7746.71,"end":7748.71,"text":"對於我所增加的第四項"},{"start":7748.71,"end":7750.71,"text":"你們未來需要用什麼樣的方法"},{"start":7750.71,"end":7752.71,"text":"來呈現我們所關注的"},{"start":7752.71,"end":7754.71,"text":"包括這"},{"start":7754.71,"end":7756.71,"text":"我剛剛所提到的這個項目裡面"},{"start":7756.71,"end":7758.71,"text":"營養師廚房設備等等"},{"start":7758.71,"end":7760.71,"text":"這是大家最希望能夠看到的"},{"start":7760.71,"end":7762.71,"text":"就是希望能夠在"},{"start":7762.71,"end":7764.71,"text":"不管你用什麼方法總之要涵蓋"},{"start":7764.71,"end":7766.71,"text":"這些的層面進去"},{"start":7766.71,"end":7768.71,"text":"因為這些層面進去才是會讓"},{"start":7768.71,"end":7770.71,"text":"整個營養午餐有辦法動起來"},{"start":7770.71,"end":7772.71,"text":"有辦法執行起來在人力的各方面的"},{"start":7772.71,"end":7774.71,"text":"層次上面"},{"start":7774.71,"end":7776.71,"text":"所以你們現在打算是把它放在什麼地方"},{"start":7776.71,"end":7778.71,"text":"我比較關切的是這個"},{"start":7778.71,"end":7780.71,"text":"我可以同意你說你的"},{"start":7780.71,"end":7782.71,"text":"你在這個魔法層次上面是做一個宣示性"},{"start":7782.71,"end":7784.71,"text":"或者是比較是大方向的"},{"start":7784.71,"end":7786.71,"text":"但是你要用什麼方法來處理"},{"start":7786.71,"end":7788.71,"text":"這項部分"},{"start":7788.71,"end":7790.71,"text":"你打算用什麼方法來處理"},{"start":7791.78,"end":7793.78,"text":"為我們請看一下"},{"start":7793.78,"end":7795.78,"text":"目前的"},{"start":7795.94,"end":7797.94,"text":"這個條文的倒數第二項"},{"start":7799.17,"end":7801.17,"text":"倒數第二項"},{"start":7801.17,"end":7803.17,"text":"各位文請看一下"},{"start":7805.04,"end":7807.04,"text":"就是"},{"start":7806.56,"end":7808.56,"text":"中央主管局長我們還是"},{"start":7808.56,"end":7810.56,"text":"有一些責任"},{"start":7810.71,"end":7812.71,"text":"得以地方的財力集次"},{"start":7812.71,"end":7814.71,"text":"學校地理位置"},{"start":7814.71,"end":7816.71,"text":"公餐這個等等"},{"start":7816.78,"end":7818.78,"text":"來補助主管機關"},{"start":7818.78,"end":7820.78,"text":"相關的像這種"},{"start":7820.78,"end":7822.78,"text":"弱勢經濟的"},{"start":7822.78,"end":7824.78,"text":"或是弱勢在偏鄉的這兩種弱勢"},{"start":7824.78,"end":7826.78,"text":"我們會"},{"start":7827.84,"end":7829.84,"text":"地方主管機關投入了資源"},{"start":7829.84,"end":7831.84,"text":"給他"},{"start":7831.84,"end":7833.84,"text":"因為他有做"},{"start":7833.84,"end":7835.84,"text":"因為錢已經移過去"},{"start":7835.84,"end":7837.84,"text":"他如果不做可能要予以"},{"start":7837.84,"end":7839.84,"text":"做一些沒有獎勵"},{"start":7839.84,"end":7841.84,"text":"有認真做的要予以獎勵"},{"start":7841.84,"end":7843.84,"text":"所以在整體的資源上"},{"start":7843.84,"end":7845.84,"text":"因為以一列"},{"start":7845.84,"end":7847.84,"text":"所以我們採你如果有照當時講好的一列"},{"start":7847.84,"end":7849.84,"text":"來回到當時"},{"start":7849.84,"end":7851.84,"text":"74億有用出來"},{"start":7851.84,"end":7853.84,"text":"那我們應該要好好的"},{"start":7853.84,"end":7855.84,"text":"予以獎勵"},{"start":7855.84,"end":7857.84,"text":"所以這一些縣市覺得"},{"start":7857.84,"end":7859.84,"text":"他有把原來錢用得位"},{"start":7859.84,"end":7861.84,"text":"然後他做的好的"},{"start":7861.84,"end":7863.84,"text":"更應該額外再給他獎勵金"},{"start":7863.84,"end":7865.84,"text":"所以是兩種獎勵"},{"start":7865.84,"end":7867.84,"text":"一種是他做的好的還要額外給他"},{"start":7867.84,"end":7869.84,"text":"一種是在名義上給予這個縣市"},{"start":7869.84,"end":7871.84,"text":"重視學生午餐"},{"start":7871.84,"end":7873.84,"text":"一個形象上的表揚"},{"start":7873.84,"end":7875.84,"text":"大概以上兩種"},{"start":7875.84,"end":7877.84,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7877.84,"end":7879.84,"text":"署長的一個建議"},{"start":7879.84,"end":7881.84,"text":"可是因為這個第九條真的是自視體大"},{"start":7881.84,"end":7883.84,"text":"所以召位本席是不是可以建議"},{"start":7883.84,"end":7885.84,"text":"所以這條保留"},{"start":7885.84,"end":7887.84,"text":"第九條先保留"},{"start":7887.84,"end":7889.84,"text":"其他我們往前推進"},{"start":7889.84,"end":7891.84,"text":"好這一條我們就先保留"},{"start":7891.84,"end":7893.84,"text":"我們繼續往前推進"},{"start":7893.84,"end":7895.84,"text":"下一條我們看到第十條委員林茜琪"},{"start":7895.84,"end":7897.84,"text":"等二十一人提案"},{"start":7897.84,"end":7899.84,"text":"第十八條等十七個提案"},{"start":7899.84,"end":7901.84,"text":"以及委員羅廷瑋克志任題"},{"start":7900.75,"end":7902.75,"text":"所提的修正動議"},{"start":7902.75,"end":7904.75,"text":"好請委員舉手發言"},{"start":7904.94,"end":7906.94,"text":"如果沒有委員就發言我們請教育部直接來回應謝謝"},{"start":7921.88,"end":7923.88,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7923.25,"end":7925.25,"text":"各位"},{"start":7924.95,"end":7926.95,"text":"各位我們請看第十條"},{"start":7926.95,"end":7928.95,"text":"一個核心的精神"},{"start":7928.95,"end":7930.95,"text":"第一項是在辦理"},{"start":7930.95,"end":7932.95,"text":"相關的"},{"start":7932.45,"end":7934.45,"text":"這個相關的這個事宜"},{"start":7934.45,"end":7936.45,"text":"要特別對偏鄉地區比較辛苦"},{"start":7936.45,"end":7938.45,"text":"這邊特別有講要怎麼幫忙"},{"start":7938.45,"end":7940.45,"text":"一個是實在上的幫忙"},{"start":7940.45,"end":7942.45,"text":"一個是在以往以來"},{"start":7942.45,"end":7944.45,"text":"我們對於太小的學校"},{"start":7944.45,"end":7946.45,"text":"他在工作上需要很多的協助"},{"start":7946.45,"end":7948.45,"text":"我們提供了一種以前以來"},{"start":7948.45,"end":7950.45,"text":"我們認為有效的模式"},{"start":7950.45,"end":7952.45,"text":"就是用校群來實施的方式"},{"start":7952.45,"end":7954.45,"text":"以上這第十條的精神"},{"start":7954.45,"end":7956.45,"text":"特別是藉由以往成功的經驗"},{"start":7956.45,"end":7958.45,"text":"以及現實也在做的經驗"},{"start":7958.45,"end":7960.45,"text":"特別來列出"},{"start":7960.45,"end":7962.45,"text":"可操作的務實的法條"},{"start":7970.31,"end":7972.31,"text":"好那有委員同意"},{"start":7972.31,"end":7974.31,"text":"那我們就照教育部的"},{"start":7976.15,"end":7978.15,"text":"文字"},{"start":7979.63,"end":7981.63,"text":"第十條主管機關"},{"start":7981.63,"end":7983.63,"text":"會同農業主管機關協助"},{"start":7983.63,"end":7985.63,"text":"偏遠地區學校辦理學校午餐之"},{"start":7987,"end":7989,"text":"啊啊"},{"start":7991.63,"end":8001.63,"text":"在地食材供應事宜主管機關得協助偏遠地區學校推動校群實施聯合採購確保食材品質穩定減輕行政負擔"},{"start":8004.5,"end":8007.5,"text":"好修正通過照教育部的建議文字"},{"start":8007.5,"end":8010.5,"text":"修正通過謝謝我們繼續往下"},{"start":8010.5,"end":8012.5,"text":"第十一條台灣民眾黨提案"},{"start":8012.5,"end":8014.5,"text":"第五條第四十個提案"},{"start":8014.5,"end":8018.5,"text":"以及委員羅庭瑋等人委員羅庭瑋柯志恩等人所提修正動議"},{"start":8022.17,"end":8024.17,"text":"好我們看到陳秀寶委員再來柯志恩委員"},{"start":8026.86,"end":8028.86,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8028.86,"end":8032.86,"text":"在這一條十一條對我自己的版本是放在第六條"},{"start":8032.86,"end":8035.86,"text":"那我也針對我自己的版本有提出一個再修正動議"},{"start":8035.86,"end":8041.86,"text":"將中央主管機關召開這會議更名為學校飲食及教育政策會"},{"start":8041.86,"end":8043.86,"text":"在條文裡面是這樣寫喔"},{"start":8043.86,"end":8045.86,"text":"教育部的建議條文是寫"},{"start":8045.86,"end":8049.86,"text":"中央主管機關為促進學校午餐品質及推動飲食教育"},{"start":8049.86,"end":8052.86,"text":"應召開學校午餐工作諮詢會"},{"start":8052.86,"end":8054.86,"text":"那我自己的版本是"},{"start":8054.86,"end":8058.86,"text":"中央主管機關為推進學校飲食品質及飲食教育"},{"start":8058.86,"end":8062.86,"text":"應組成學校飲食及教育政策會辦理事項"},{"start":8062.86,"end":8064.86,"text":"這樣子的一個比較"},{"start":8064.86,"end":8071.86,"text":"就是這樣子的更名會覺得比較能夠涵蓋會議辦理事項"},{"start":8071.86,"end":8077.86,"text":"那本席也徵列了督導地方主管機關執行學校飲食公典一級"},{"start":8078.67,"end":8083.67,"text":"飲食教育推動事項為中央主管機關權責"},{"start":8083.67,"end":8088.67,"text":"學校的午餐的辦理其實高度仰賴地方政府的自治"},{"start":8088.67,"end":8091.67,"text":"所以需要中央主管機關來監督"},{"start":8091.67,"end":8096.67,"text":"未來學校午餐的相關事項經費還是由中央與地方來分攤"},{"start":8096.67,"end":8103.67,"text":"而且針對地方政府推動學校午餐事項也有應該有獎懲機制"},{"start":8103.67,"end":8108.67,"text":"中央監督地方政府辦理情形也可以做相關的標準"},{"start":8108.67,"end":8111.67,"text":"最後在會議組成成員的部分"},{"start":8113.43,"end":8118.43,"text":"本席也希望能夠有限制學校營養師的代表"},{"start":8118.43,"end":8125.43,"text":"讓學校現場的聲音可以在這個午餐的這個工作的會議裡面提出"},{"start":8125.43,"end":8126.43,"text":"以上"},{"start":8129.7,"end":8130.7,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8134.17,"end":8138.17,"text":"好 我在第一十一條裡面有關在第四款"},{"start":8138.17,"end":8141.17,"text":"其實就是有關代表的成員部分"},{"start":8141.17,"end":8144.17,"text":"我們就是這邊有地方主管機構代表"},{"start":8144.17,"end":8149.17,"text":"我們很希望能夠加入限制學校營養師代表"},{"start":8149.17,"end":8151.17,"text":"因為他代表他們在第一線"},{"start":8151.17,"end":8155.17,"text":"他們應該比誰更清楚目前整個學校發展的真實的狀況"},{"start":8155.17,"end":8158.17,"text":"所以強力的建議說在這一款第四款當中"},{"start":8158.17,"end":8164.17,"text":"成員的部分裡面請包括限制學校營養師代表"},{"start":8164.17,"end":8166.17,"text":"第二項 第二項對不起"},{"start":8167.38,"end":8169.38,"text":"第二項的第四款"},{"start":8169.54,"end":8170.54,"text":"好"},{"start":8170.69,"end":8171.69,"text":"國賓委員"},{"start":8171.69,"end":8175.69,"text":"好 這個部分我的版本是對應到第六條"},{"start":8175.69,"end":8178.69,"text":"那要求這個中央成立這個諮詢會的時候"},{"start":8178.69,"end":8182.69,"text":"我有特別強調也是在這個成員的一個部分"},{"start":8182.69,"end":8185.69,"text":"是不是能夠納入家長跟學生的代表"},{"start":8185.69,"end":8190.69,"text":"那這個部分我想這個布板的部分沒有把這個部分寫進去"},{"start":8190.69,"end":8194.689999999999,"text":"那我想就是要納入使用者的心聲"},{"start":8194.689999999999,"end":8196.689999999999,"text":"就是家長或者是學生的一個代表"},{"start":8196.69,"end":8200.69,"text":"和學生的一個代表才能夠確保這個公餐的透明化"},{"start":8200.69,"end":8204.69,"text":"那避免這個營養午餐成為這個黑箱的一些決策"},{"start":8204.69,"end":8206.69,"text":"那這是我的建議"},{"start":8206.69,"end":8207.69,"text":"以上"},{"start":8209.04,"end":8211.04,"text":"好 那請我們下一步回應"},{"start":8212.96,"end":8213.96,"text":"好"},{"start":8215.42,"end":8217.42,"text":"那這個條文開始"},{"start":8217.42,"end":8221.42,"text":"會分11條是中央 12條是地方"},{"start":8221.42,"end":8223.42,"text":"13條是學校"},{"start":8223.42,"end":8224.42,"text":"結構上這樣之後"},{"start":8224.42,"end":8228.42,"text":"那就會開始去寫11條中央的部分"},{"start":8228.42,"end":8232.42,"text":"要做什麼相關的這個工作項目"},{"start":8232.42,"end":8235.42,"text":"以及他的人員代表屬性"},{"start":8235.42,"end":8238.42,"text":"那這些人員代表是剛剛各位委員所提比較多"},{"start":8238.42,"end":8243.42,"text":"那裡面特別有點名是不是限職的營養師"},{"start":8243.42,"end":8245.42,"text":"目前寫的是營養師"},{"start":8246.42,"end":8249.42,"text":"有兩位委員以上提到限職營養師"},{"start":8249.42,"end":8253.42,"text":"我們覺得可以照委員的這個方向"},{"start":8253.42,"end":8256.42,"text":"但是那個委員也可以考慮"},{"start":8256.42,"end":8259.42,"text":"那個可以寫在立法說明怎麼講"},{"start":8259.42,"end":8263.42,"text":"因為原來的寫法是保留一個彈性"},{"start":8263.58,"end":8266.58,"text":"讓營養師這個整個的邀請"},{"start":8266.58,"end":8269.58,"text":"那中央的這一個層次"},{"start":8269.58,"end":8272.58,"text":"有沒有可能是有比較廣泛包含"},{"start":8272.58,"end":8276.58,"text":"營養的相關的學會的代表"},{"start":8276.58,"end":8279.58,"text":"那他會不會是限職營養師等等"},{"start":8279.58,"end":8280.58,"text":"我們都尊重"},{"start":8280.58,"end":8282.58,"text":"但是今天委員特別點名"},{"start":8283.51,"end":8285.51,"text":"好"},{"start":8284.42,"end":8286.42,"text":"就限職營養師"},{"start":8288.17,"end":8291.17,"text":"立法的技術上應該也沒有問題"},{"start":8291.17,"end":8294.17,"text":"但是也可以寫在立法說明上"},{"start":8294.17,"end":8296.17,"text":"給我們這樣的一個建議的方向"},{"start":8296.17,"end":8297.17,"text":"在臨派的時候"},{"start":8297.17,"end":8299.17,"text":"臨選的時候可以這樣處理"},{"start":8299.17,"end":8302.17,"text":"那要不要寫在法條上"},{"start":8302.17,"end":8305.17,"text":"讓這個稍微有點限縮嗎"},{"start":8305.17,"end":8307.17,"text":"看要不要這樣處理"},{"start":8307.17,"end":8310.17,"text":"第二個面向的人是家長跟"},{"start":8311.31,"end":8314.31,"text":"學生我們覺得這個應該我們可以再來列進去"},{"start":8314.31,"end":8317.31,"text":"所以以上應該就是留待"},{"start":8317.31,"end":8319.31,"text":"要不要加限職營養師"},{"start":8319.31,"end":8322.31,"text":"看看提案的委員是直接在法條上寫"},{"start":8322.31,"end":8324.31,"text":"還是在立法說明這樣"},{"start":8324.31,"end":8327.31,"text":"讓我們有一個方向保留"},{"start":8327.31,"end":8330.31,"text":"也是都是營養師學會的一些建議"},{"start":8330.31,"end":8333.31,"text":"看看哪一種會更滿足專家"},{"start":8333.31,"end":8335.31,"text":"尤其是營養的代表的來參與"},{"start":8335.31,"end":8337.31,"text":"看看委員的想法"},{"start":8337.31,"end":8339.31,"text":"我覺得限職學校營養師代表"},{"start":8339.31,"end":8342.31,"text":"我覺得會雖然說你提供一個彈性"},{"start":8342.31,"end":8343.31,"text":"可是這反而是"},{"start":8343.31,"end":8345.31,"text":"因為有時候營養學會一些專家"},{"start":8345.31,"end":8347.31,"text":"他並不是在第一線上處理"},{"start":8347.31,"end":8349.31,"text":"學校目前的一些的狀況"},{"start":8349.31,"end":8351.31,"text":"所以目前我們為什麼要把"},{"start":8351.31,"end":8353.31,"text":"限職學校營養師放進去"},{"start":8353.31,"end":8355.31,"text":"就是希望能夠for這個 position"},{"start":8355.31,"end":8358.31,"text":"然後可以真的來替這個學校來做發聲"},{"start":8358.31,"end":8361.31,"text":"如果把擴編到一個立法意志上面去做"},{"start":8361.31,"end":8364.31,"text":"反而搞不好又有一些的營養專家等等"},{"start":8364.31,"end":8365.31,"text":"沒在學校的經驗"},{"start":8365.31,"end":8368.31,"text":"這反而是失去我們當初寫這個最大的一個目的"},{"start":8368.31,"end":8371.31,"text":"好 那我呼應到那個我們的"},{"start":8372.63,"end":8373.63,"text":"科志人委員喔"},{"start":8373.63,"end":8375.63,"text":"限職營養師有其必要性"},{"start":8375.63,"end":8378.63,"text":"納入學校教師家長跟工商相關業者"},{"start":8378.63,"end":8380.63,"text":"專家學者的一個代表"},{"start":8380.63,"end":8382.63,"text":"限職營養師也有舉足輕重"},{"start":8382.63,"end":8385.63,"text":"並且第一線實際的一個狀況"},{"start":8385.63,"end":8386.63,"text":"比較能夠了解"},{"start":8386.63,"end":8388.63,"text":"我講一個觀點好嗎 不好意思"},{"start":8388.63,"end":8390.63,"text":"因為剛剛我有一個觀點可能"},{"start":8390.63,"end":8391.63,"text":"可以啊 可以啊"},{"start":8391.63,"end":8393.63,"text":"講清楚也讓趙薇比較踩事"},{"start":8393.63,"end":8394.63,"text":"都說喔"},{"start":8394.63,"end":8396.63,"text":"限職營養師因為我最近"},{"start":8396.63,"end":8398.63,"text":"一些食安在邀請的時候"},{"start":8398.63,"end":8400.63,"text":"那麼一邀"},{"start":8400.63,"end":8403.63,"text":"他就會有公辦公營公辦民營外地團散"},{"start":8403.63,"end":8405.63,"text":"各種的營養師都要邀的時候"},{"start":8405.63,"end":8407.63,"text":"那就叫限職學校營養師"},{"start":8407.63,"end":8410.63,"text":"那這種限職學校一邀就要邀三位"},{"start":8410.63,"end":8413.63,"text":"可是原來的營養師相關的這個學會"},{"start":8413.63,"end":8416.63,"text":"他們在統合完之後給我們的意見"},{"start":8416.63,"end":8419.63,"text":"那也是一種統合後的意見"},{"start":8419.63,"end":8420.63,"text":"所以各有好處"},{"start":8420.63,"end":8423.63,"text":"那你如果現在是叫學校營養"},{"start":8423.63,"end":8425.63,"text":"限職學校營養師"},{"start":8425.63,"end":8427.63,"text":"往往我們常常在邀的時候"},{"start":8427.63,"end":8429.63,"text":"一下邀三種公餐型態"},{"start":8429.63,"end":8430.63,"text":"他對他自己的很清楚"},{"start":8430.63,"end":8431.63,"text":"他對另外兩種"},{"start":8431.63,"end":8433.63,"text":"有時候會跟我們講他沒把握"},{"start":8433.63,"end":8436.63,"text":"那這樣的時候定一個中央政策"},{"start":8436.63,"end":8438.63,"text":"這就是為什麼當時也有一些聲音說"},{"start":8438.63,"end":8440.63,"text":"應該是整個營養師"},{"start":8440.63,"end":8442.63,"text":"他們也是問過各種公餐型態"},{"start":8442.63,"end":8444.63,"text":"跟各種層級的營養師"},{"start":8444.63,"end":8446.63,"text":"各類型營養師都有"},{"start":8446.63,"end":8448.63,"text":"他問過之後來我們就會覺得"},{"start":8448.63,"end":8449.63,"text":"他講的是分析完的"},{"start":8449.63,"end":8451.63,"text":"而不是某個型態"},{"start":8451.63,"end":8453.63,"text":"或是某個教育階段的代表"},{"start":8453.63,"end":8454.63,"text":"他有這種"},{"start":8455.33,"end":8456.33,"text":"我們也很為難"},{"start":8456.33,"end":8457.33,"text":"所以當時也有考慮"},{"start":8458.15,"end":8459.15,"text":"好陳秋芭委員請發言"},{"start":8460.92,"end":8461.92,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8461.92,"end":8463.92,"text":"因為原本我跟柯志恩委員說"},{"start":8463.92,"end":8465.92,"text":"表達的意見是一樣的"},{"start":8465.92,"end":8467.92,"text":"就是限職學校營養師代表"},{"start":8467.92,"end":8468.92,"text":"因為這是現場的聲音"},{"start":8468.92,"end":8471.92,"text":"但是剛才的署長所回答就是說"},{"start":8471.92,"end":8475.92,"text":"是會採納的是中等過後的意見"},{"start":8475.92,"end":8476.92,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":8476.92,"end":8477.92,"text":"就是不只是學校的"},{"start":8477.92,"end":8480.92,"text":"可能也是餐飲的營養師"},{"start":8480.92,"end":8481.92,"text":"還是說是"},{"start":8481.92,"end":8482.92,"text":"因為他公餐型態"},{"start":8482.92,"end":8483.92,"text":"不一樣"},{"start":8483.92,"end":8484.92,"text":"有餐廳以上"},{"start":8484.92,"end":8485.92,"text":"甚至還有這個餐廳"},{"start":8485.92,"end":8486.92,"text":"所以營養師"},{"start":8486.92,"end":8488.92,"text":"如果我們只是限職學校"},{"start":8488.92,"end":8489.92,"text":"除非這個額度"},{"start":8489.92,"end":8490.92,"text":"一來就要來四個會長"},{"start":8490.92,"end":8492.92,"text":"因為他們常常表達"},{"start":8492.92,"end":8493.92,"text":"會很熟他們的運作"},{"start":8493.92,"end":8495.92,"text":"但是別的型態的運作"},{"start":8495.92,"end":8496.92,"text":"他們都很客氣"},{"start":8496.92,"end":8497.92,"text":"不一定那麼的"},{"start":8497.92,"end":8498.92,"text":"覺得他有代表"},{"start":8498.92,"end":8499.92,"text":"另外這個"},{"start":8499.92,"end":8500.92,"text":"我懂意思"},{"start":8500.92,"end":8501.92,"text":"我懂署長您的意思"},{"start":8501.92,"end":8503.92,"text":"但是我們要怎麼能夠確保說"},{"start":8503.92,"end":8505.92,"text":"學校的限職的意見是有納入的"},{"start":8505.92,"end":8507.92,"text":"這個部分我們如何去"},{"start":8507.92,"end":8508.92,"text":"對呀"},{"start":8508.92,"end":8509.92,"text":"因為你如果說是營養"},{"start":8509.92,"end":8511.92,"text":"你剛剛所講營養公會是不是"},{"start":8511.92,"end":8512.92,"text":"然後找出"},{"start":8512.92,"end":8513.92,"text":"你剛才找的是個醫院的營養師"},{"start":8513.92,"end":8514.92,"text":"他也是營養師"},{"start":8514.92,"end":8515.92,"text":"剛剛是醫院"},{"start":8515.92,"end":8516.92,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":8516.92,"end":8518.92,"text":"我們只要百分之百確定"},{"start":8518.92,"end":8520.92,"text":"他是在第一現場"},{"start":8520.92,"end":8522.92,"text":"學校的現場是可以被邀請來的"},{"start":8522.92,"end":8523.92,"text":"我們只要達到這個目標就好"},{"start":8523.92,"end":8524.92,"text":"不管你要怎麼樣使用"},{"start":8524.92,"end":8525.92,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8525.92,"end":8526.92,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8526.92,"end":8527.92,"text":"剛剛委員這個提醒就是"},{"start":8527.92,"end":8529.92,"text":"有一種以前委員給我們指導的"},{"start":8529.92,"end":8530.92,"text":"立法技術"},{"start":8530.92,"end":8532.92,"text":"就在比較複雜"},{"start":8532.92,"end":8535.92,"text":"或是有一點在附帶的決議性指控"},{"start":8535.92,"end":8536.92,"text":"我們有看到的"},{"start":8536.92,"end":8537.92,"text":"可以寫在立法說明"},{"start":8537.92,"end":8539.92,"text":"我們可以寫得比較完整"},{"start":8539.92,"end":8541.92,"text":"譬如說我剛剛講的意思"},{"start":8541.92,"end":8542.92,"text":"我也完全清楚"},{"start":8542.92,"end":8544.92,"text":"但是委員的意思我更清楚"},{"start":8544.92,"end":8547.92,"text":"來的還是一定要對現職的"},{"start":8547.92,"end":8549.92,"text":"現場的情形要很掌握"},{"start":8549.92,"end":8551.92,"text":"不可以只是場域又不同的"},{"start":8551.92,"end":8553.92,"text":"或是他不是現職人員的"},{"start":8553.92,"end":8555.92,"text":"這個我們寫在立法說明"},{"start":8555.92,"end":8557.92,"text":"是能夠充分表達委員的要求"},{"start":8557.92,"end":8559.92,"text":"但是現在如果一寫到"},{"start":8559.92,"end":8561.92,"text":"現職學校營養師"},{"start":8561.92,"end":8562.92,"text":"可能我們在找的時候"},{"start":8562.92,"end":8565.92,"text":"常常會變成要嘛找很多位"},{"start":8565.92,"end":8567.92,"text":"才能夠滿足那個情況"},{"start":8567.92,"end":8570.92,"text":"但是寫在文法不好說明這個情形"},{"start":8570.92,"end":8572.92,"text":"所以我們會寫在立法說明"},{"start":8572.92,"end":8574.92,"text":"然後來達到委員的要求"},{"start":8574.92,"end":8577.92,"text":"那我想說主席我翻一下"},{"start":8577.92,"end":8581.92,"text":"那個如果說有時候我們邀請來的名額"},{"start":8581.92,"end":8584.92,"text":"他是有限制的沒有辦法就是說"},{"start":8584.92,"end":8587.92,"text":"每一種的"},{"start":8590.13,"end":8593.13,"text":"狀況的營養師都邀請到的話"},{"start":8593.13,"end":8595.13,"text":"我只希望說能夠確保"},{"start":8595.13,"end":8600.13,"text":"學校午餐現場的聲音"},{"start":8600.13,"end":8602.13,"text":"是有被表達到的"},{"start":8604,"end":8606,"text":"好這樣子我提議"},{"start":8606,"end":8608,"text":"那因為"},{"start":8608.17,"end":8610.17,"text":"兩邊都有自己的一個欠解"},{"start":8610.17,"end":8612.17,"text":"都非常的重要"},{"start":8612.17,"end":8614.17,"text":"那我們是不是再討論看看"},{"start":8614.17,"end":8616.17,"text":"那是不是就保留"},{"start":8616.96,"end":8618.96,"text":"很簡單喔"},{"start":8619.63,"end":8621.63,"text":"你覺得有共識好啊"},{"start":8621.63,"end":8623.63,"text":"那你提案嘛"},{"start":8626.83,"end":8628.83,"text":"對啊所以說你說限制學校營養代表"},{"start":8628.83,"end":8631.83,"text":"我覺得這個你真的覺得有"},{"start":8631.83,"end":8634.83,"text":"我覺得寫到法條上應該是非常OK的"},{"start":8635.32,"end":8637.32,"text":"限制學校營養是代表"},{"start":8637.32,"end":8639.32,"text":"部長"},{"start":8639.32,"end":8641.32,"text":"或者是這麼說因為第十一條"},{"start":8641.32,"end":8643.32,"text":"他主要是從中央的一個位階來看"},{"start":8643.32,"end":8645.32,"text":"所以他比較是政策導向"},{"start":8645.32,"end":8649.32,"text":"那當然怎麼樣到時候這個營養的學者專家"},{"start":8649.32,"end":8651.32,"text":"事實上也可以去延攬這一個"},{"start":8651.32,"end":8653.32,"text":"喔有的是"},{"start":8653.32,"end":8655.32,"text":"這是很怕學者專家"},{"start":8655.32,"end":8657.32,"text":"很怕學者專家"},{"start":8657.32,"end":8659.32,"text":"因為你從地方"},{"start":8659.32,"end":8661.32,"text":"限制的實際在推動的時候"},{"start":8661.32,"end":8663.32,"text":"對啊"},{"start":8663.62,"end":8665.62,"text":"我就是很害怕"},{"start":8665.62,"end":8667.62,"text":"我就是很害怕到時候找到那些學者專家"},{"start":8667.62,"end":8669.62,"text":"所以我們為什麼強調"},{"start":8669.62,"end":8671.62,"text":"要限制學校這個意志是"},{"start":8671.62,"end":8673.62,"text":"百分百說"},{"start":8673.62,"end":8675.62,"text":"所以你如何讓這個法條上面"},{"start":8675.62,"end":8677.62,"text":"讓我們可以保證限制學校的營養"},{"start":8677.62,"end":8679.62,"text":"是能夠來發生"},{"start":8679.62,"end":8681.62,"text":"我們要求就只有這樣"},{"start":8681.62,"end":8683.62,"text":"那至於你要把它放到什麼樣的層面上都可以啊"},{"start":8685.17,"end":8687.17,"text":"好"},{"start":8686.86,"end":8688.86,"text":"蔡總委員"},{"start":8691.79,"end":8693.79,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":8693.79,"end":8695.79,"text":"柯志恩委員的"},{"start":8695.79,"end":8697.79,"text":"的一個提議"},{"start":8697.79,"end":8699.79,"text":"因為限制的"},{"start":8699.79,"end":8701.79,"text":"限制的營養師"},{"start":8701.79,"end":8703.79,"text":"他是真正的第一個聲音"},{"start":8703.79,"end":8707.79,"text":"現場的最基本基礎的聲音"},{"start":8707.79,"end":8711.79,"text":"來表達學校的一些狀況跟需求"},{"start":8711.79,"end":8713.79,"text":"所以在這裡我還是同意"},{"start":8713.79,"end":8715.79,"text":"柯志恩委員的一個開幕"},{"start":8715.79,"end":8717.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8717.32,"end":8719.32,"text":"好 部長還有署長"},{"start":8720.02,"end":8722.02,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":8723.04,"end":8725.04,"text":"就是剛剛委員也覺得說"},{"start":8725.04,"end":8727.04,"text":"這其實是大家有共識啦"},{"start":8727.04,"end":8729.04,"text":"就是是限制的學校營養師"},{"start":8729.04,"end":8731.04,"text":"不是限制的醫院營養師"},{"start":8731.04,"end":8733.04,"text":"而且是"},{"start":8733.04,"end":8735.04,"text":"不要是學者專家"},{"start":8735.04,"end":8737.04,"text":"希望是這樣"},{"start":8737.04,"end":8739.04,"text":"那因為這一些說明"},{"start":8739.04,"end":8741.04,"text":"其實滿完整的"},{"start":8741.04,"end":8743.04,"text":"可是以法條來講要寫成這麼細緻不容易"},{"start":8743.04,"end":8745.04,"text":"我們寫在立法說明"},{"start":8745.04,"end":8747.04,"text":"完全會把委員的意思到時候"},{"start":8747.04,"end":8749.04,"text":"會執行到"},{"start":8749.04,"end":8751.04,"text":"我只希望說能夠確保"},{"start":8751.04,"end":8753.04,"text":"就是現場的聲音"},{"start":8753.04,"end":8757.04,"text":"就學校午餐現場的這樣實況"},{"start":8757.04,"end":8760.04,"text":"他們能夠去表達到他們的聲音"},{"start":8760.04,"end":8762.04,"text":"就是你確保這樣子"},{"start":8762.04,"end":8763.04,"text":"那其他的就是說"},{"start":8763.04,"end":8765.04,"text":"如果你做這個名額的安排"},{"start":8765.04,"end":8767.04,"text":"或者說有什麼其他的方式的話"},{"start":8767.04,"end":8769.04,"text":"我其實沒有很大的意見"},{"start":8769.04,"end":8771.04,"text":"但是必須是確定有"},{"start":8771.04,"end":8773.04,"text":"收集到學校的聲音的"},{"start":8778.78,"end":8780.78,"text":"好,那是不是"},{"start":8780.65,"end":8782.65,"text":"請國家署署長"},{"start":8782.65,"end":8784.65,"text":"我們就依照"},{"start":8784.38,"end":8786.38,"text":"剛剛委員就說我們會寫一個立法說明"},{"start":8786.38,"end":8788.38,"text":"再給委員們看一下"},{"start":8788.38,"end":8790.38,"text":"依法說明"},{"start":8790.38,"end":8792.38,"text":"那我們先等你的依法說明寫出來"},{"start":8792.38,"end":8794.38,"text":"立法說明"},{"start":8794.38,"end":8796.38,"text":"那我就先往下進行喔"},{"start":8796.38,"end":8798.38,"text":"待會再回來這裡喔"},{"start":8800.87,"end":8802.87,"text":"你現在寫出來嗎?"},{"start":8803.79,"end":8805.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8804.9,"end":8806.9,"text":"委員限職學校營養師的觀念"},{"start":8806.9,"end":8808.9,"text":"如果條文沒有特別改"},{"start":8808.9,"end":8810.9,"text":"但是立法說明要完成委員這樣"},{"start":8810.9,"end":8812.9,"text":"一個遴選的對象的需求"},{"start":8812.9,"end":8814.9,"text":"我們把它寫一下,謝謝"},{"start":8816.85,"end":8818.85,"text":"在會議結束前我寫出來"},{"start":8819.56,"end":8821.56,"text":"好,那我們先"},{"start":8821.89,"end":8823.89,"text":"處理下一條"},{"start":8826.7,"end":8828.7,"text":"第12條條文"},{"start":8828.7,"end":8830.7,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第6條第"},{"start":8830.7,"end":8832.7,"text":"37個提案喔"},{"start":8832.7,"end":8834.7,"text":"以及委員羅庭瑋等人"},{"start":8834.7,"end":8836.7,"text":"委員羅庭瑋柯志恩等人所提"},{"start":8836.7,"end":8838.7,"text":"修正動議,請委員舉手"},{"start":8839.05,"end":8841.05,"text":"第11條跟第12條就是相對嘛"},{"start":8841.05,"end":8843.05,"text":"第10條是中央嘛"},{"start":8843.05,"end":8845.05,"text":"第12條嘛就是有關於地方嘛"},{"start":8845.05,"end":8847.05,"text":"所以我們就是加入"},{"start":8847.05,"end":8849.05,"text":"地方限職學校營養師代表"},{"start":8849.05,"end":8851.05,"text":"好不好,這樣子"},{"start":8851.05,"end":8853.05,"text":"所以我們在第12條裡面呢"},{"start":8853.05,"end":8855.05,"text":"我們還是強調需要限職的聲音"},{"start":8855.05,"end":8857.05,"text":"所以我們就加入地方限職"},{"start":8857.05,"end":8859.05,"text":"學校營養師代表"},{"start":8859.05,"end":8861.05,"text":"那你如果要用立法說明"},{"start":8861.05,"end":8863.05,"text":"或是如何的話"},{"start":8863.05,"end":8865.05,"text":"反正我們就闡述我們自己非常重要的一個概念"},{"start":8865.05,"end":8867.05,"text":"好,秀寶委員"},{"start":8868.01,"end":8870.01,"text":"謝謝主席,12條對應到我自己的辦事第7條"},{"start":8870.01,"end":8872.01,"text":"那一樣我自己有提修正動議"},{"start":8872.01,"end":8874.01,"text":"就是希望加學校的武昌輔導會議名稱"},{"start":8874.01,"end":8878.01,"text":"是不是改為學校飲食及教育推動會"},{"start":8878.01,"end":8880.01,"text":"比較能夠涵蓋這個會議討論的內容"},{"start":8880.01,"end":8882.01,"text":"加上這個針對會議成員對象呢"},{"start":8882.01,"end":8888.01,"text":"能夠再增加民間相關機構團體及現任學生代表"},{"start":8888.01,"end":8890.01,"text":"合計不少於成員的1%"},{"start":8890.01,"end":8892.01,"text":"那推動飲食、教育除了食材認識"},{"start":8892.01,"end":8894.01,"text":"也要結合在地食材認識"},{"start":8894.01,"end":8896.01,"text":"那推動飲食、教育除了食材認識"},{"start":8896.01,"end":8898.01,"text":"也要結合在地食材運用及在地飲食文化"},{"start":8898.01,"end":8900.01,"text":"如果有民間相關的機構團體"},{"start":8900.01,"end":8902.01,"text":"尤其是與在地人也比較深的團體加入"},{"start":8902.01,"end":8904.01,"text":"本席覺得對學校飲食推動也是會有注意"},{"start":8904.01,"end":8906.01,"text":"另外跟剛才的第11條一樣"},{"start":8906.01,"end":8908.01,"text":"我希望說能夠增加限制學校營養師代表"},{"start":8908.01,"end":8910.01,"text":"讓學校辦理相關飲食的事項的現況"},{"start":8910.01,"end":8912.01,"text":"現場的現況可以及時反應"},{"start":8912.01,"end":8914.01,"text":"所以這個部分請"},{"start":8914.01,"end":8916.01,"text":"因為我想大家對學校營養師的提問"},{"start":8916.01,"end":8918.01,"text":"有所提及"},{"start":8918.01,"end":8920.01,"text":"那我現在就先講到這一點"},{"start":8920.01,"end":8922.01,"text":"其實反應喔"},{"start":8922.01,"end":8924.01,"text":"所以這個部分請"},{"start":8924.01,"end":8926.01,"text":"因為我想大家對剛才的那一條的"},{"start":8926.01,"end":8928.01,"text":"討論就是說可以在立法說明裡面"},{"start":8928.01,"end":8930.01,"text":"你們要怎麼樣在技術上克服"},{"start":8930.01,"end":8932.01,"text":"我是都沒有意見"},{"start":8932.01,"end":8934.01,"text":"只是希望確保在學校現場的"},{"start":8934.01,"end":8936.01,"text":"現況的聲音是可以表達的"},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二是邀了誰"},{"start":9093.41,"end":9095.41,"text":"誰沒邀 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你太細的東西"},{"start":9797.73,"end":9799.73,"text":"你還能再自行去"},{"start":9799.73,"end":9801.73,"text":"我們讓它可以過關一點"},{"start":9801.73,"end":9802.73,"text":"我們說都太細了"},{"start":9802.73,"end":9803.73,"text":"還真是"},{"start":9803.73,"end":9804.73,"text":"是一模一樣了"},{"start":9806.99,"end":9807.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9807.99,"end":9808.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9808.99,"end":9809.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9809.99,"end":9810.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9810.99,"end":9811.99,"text":"不管是事實上"},{"start":9811.99,"end":9812.99,"text":"事實上這個東西"},{"start":9812.99,"end":9813.99,"text":"你不能放在法規裡面"},{"start":9813.99,"end":9814.99,"text":"因為這個真的太細"},{"start":9814.99,"end":9815.99,"text":"所以如果"},{"start":9815.99,"end":9816.99,"text":"一個商位大法"},{"start":9816.99,"end":9817.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9817.99,"end":9818.99,"text":"我剛剛也有講"},{"start":9818.99,"end":9819.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9819.99,"end":9820.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9820.99,"end":9821.99,"text":"有些要在行政"},{"start":9821.99,"end":9822.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9822.99,"end":9823.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9823.99,"end":9824.99,"text":"你這個商位大法"},{"start":9824.99,"end":9825.99,"text":"實際上是細"},{"start":9825.99,"end":9826.99,"text":"人家講法規"},{"start":9826.99,"end":9827.99,"text":"之前到時候這個都不能做"},{"start":9827.99,"end":9828.99,"text":"這只是最大問題"},{"start":9828.99,"end":9829.99,"text":"但是這個不是最大問題"},{"start":9829.99,"end":9830.99,"text":"這是大問題"},{"start":9830.99,"end":9831.99,"text":"對"},{"start":9831.99,"end":9832.99,"text":"這大問題"},{"start":9832.99,"end":9833.99,"text":"我懂"},{"start":9833.99,"end":9834.99,"text":"你們再調一台"},{"start":9834.99,"end":9835.99,"text":"但是如果可以"},{"start":9835.99,"end":9839.99,"text":"我覺得還是要彼此合作"},{"start":9846.37,"end":9847.37,"text":"好 我們"},{"start":9847.37,"end":9848.37,"text":"繼續開會"},{"start":9848.37,"end":9849.37,"text":"沒關係"},{"start":9849.37,"end":9850.37,"text":"大家都差不多回到了"},{"start":9851.76,"end":9852.76,"text":"好 我們第十四條"},{"start":9852.76,"end":9853.76,"text":"柯志恩委員"},{"start":9853.76,"end":9854.76,"text":"剛剛有舉手"},{"start":9854.76,"end":9855.76,"text":"陳秀馬委員"},{"start":9855.76,"end":9856.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9856.97,"end":9857.97,"text":"第十四條"},{"start":9857.97,"end":9858.97,"text":"真的飯都吃不下"},{"start":9858.97,"end":9859.97,"text":"我告訴你"},{"start":9859.97,"end":9860.97,"text":"真的"},{"start":9860.97,"end":9861.97,"text":"第四條"},{"start":9861.97,"end":9862.97,"text":"我就提出再修正動議"},{"start":9862.97,"end":9863.97,"text":"我想這是最重要的"},{"start":9863.97,"end":9864.97,"text":"再修正動議"},{"start":9864.97,"end":9865.97,"text":"我想"},{"start":9865.97,"end":9866.97,"text":"大家可以討論一下"},{"start":9866.97,"end":9869.97,"text":"有關營養師人力的配置上面"},{"start":9869.97,"end":9870.97,"text":"那我所提出來就是"},{"start":9870.97,"end":9871.97,"text":"在第一項的部分"},{"start":9871.97,"end":9873.97,"text":"在第一款第一項的部分裡面"},{"start":9873.97,"end":9874.97,"text":"中央主管機關"},{"start":9874.97,"end":9876.97,"text":"應設置專責單位"},{"start":9876.97,"end":9878.97,"text":"並至少制營養師二人"},{"start":9878.97,"end":9881.97,"text":"統籌規劃全國學校營養午餐"},{"start":9881.97,"end":9882.97,"text":"供應管理與飲食"},{"start":9882.97,"end":9884.97,"text":"教育相關的業務"},{"start":9884.97,"end":9885.97,"text":"這是提出的人數"},{"start":9885.97,"end":9886.97,"text":"第二個呢"},{"start":9886.97,"end":9887.97,"text":"地方主管機關"},{"start":9887.97,"end":9889.97,"text":"應設置專責單位"},{"start":9889.97,"end":9891.97,"text":"那後面其實是跟這個"},{"start":9891.97,"end":9892.97,"text":"都是一樣的"},{"start":9892.97,"end":9895.97,"text":"然後並至少設置營養師二人"},{"start":9895.97,"end":9897.97,"text":"離島縣市主管機關"},{"start":9897.97,"end":9900.97,"text":"應至少制營養師一人"},{"start":9900.97,"end":9902.97,"text":"那第三款是沒有改變"},{"start":9902.97,"end":9904.97,"text":"然後第四款的部分裡面"},{"start":9904.97,"end":9905.97,"text":"第一幕"},{"start":9905.97,"end":9907.97,"text":"學校有下列情形之一者"},{"start":9907.97,"end":9910.97,"text":"應該至少制營養師一人"},{"start":9910.97,"end":9911.97,"text":"那我們看第一幕"},{"start":9911.97,"end":9912.97,"text":"自辦午餐"},{"start":9912.97,"end":9914.97,"text":"學生人數達550人以上"},{"start":9914.97,"end":9916.97,"text":"我知道這要增加"},{"start":9916.97,"end":9917.97,"text":"目前算起來應該是"},{"start":9917.97,"end":9919.97,"text":"199個人吧差不多"},{"start":9919.97,"end":9921.97,"text":"那第二就是自辦午餐"},{"start":9921.97,"end":9924.97,"text":"且供應本地級他校午餐"},{"start":9924.97,"end":9926.97,"text":"那第三就是委辦"},{"start":9926.97,"end":9928.97,"text":"委外辦理學校午餐"},{"start":9928.97,"end":9930.97,"text":"學生人數達1100人"},{"start":9930.97,"end":9934.97,"text":"那第四幕就是外訂和統餐"},{"start":9934.97,"end":9937.97,"text":"學生人數合計達3300人"},{"start":9937.97,"end":9938.97,"text":"應配置"},{"start":9938.97,"end":9941.97,"text":"這個應配置或跨校合併"},{"start":9941.97,"end":9942.97,"text":"然後第五幕就是"},{"start":9942.97,"end":9944.97,"text":"然後第五幕就是前款第一幕"},{"start":9944.97,"end":9946.97,"text":"或第二幕學校"},{"start":9946.97,"end":9948.97,"text":"學生人數達1500人以上者"},{"start":9948.97,"end":9950.97,"text":"應至少制營養師二人"},{"start":9950.97,"end":9952.97,"text":"那第六幕就是"},{"start":9952.97,"end":9954.97,"text":"第四款第三幕之學校"},{"start":9954.97,"end":9956.97,"text":"超過前述學生人數規模者"},{"start":9956.97,"end":9960.97,"text":"依依工餐人數、工餐校數、工餐型態"},{"start":9960.97,"end":9963.97,"text":"及業務量足及增至營養師"},{"start":9963.97,"end":9966.97,"text":"其增至基準由中央主管機關"},{"start":9966.97,"end":9970.97,"text":"開會商相關主管機關來訂製"},{"start":9970.97,"end":9971.97,"text":"是非常的繁瑣"},{"start":9971.97,"end":9973.97,"text":"但我覺得就是在大家最關切"},{"start":9973.97,"end":9975.97,"text":"在整部營養午餐推動當中"},{"start":9975.97,"end":9977.97,"text":"這整個人力配置"},{"start":9977.97,"end":9980.97,"text":"如果人力配置沒有辦法用專輒或是足夠的話"},{"start":9980.97,"end":9983.97,"text":"其實對於我們整個營養午餐的執行"},{"start":9983.97,"end":9984.97,"text":"是有很大的問題喔"},{"start":9984.97,"end":9985.97,"text":"所以以上"},{"start":9989.37,"end":9990.37,"text":"好,秀包委員"},{"start":9991.08,"end":9992.08,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9992.08,"end":9995.08,"text":"在這個地方的14條呢"},{"start":9995.08,"end":9998.08,"text":"對於我自己的版本是第11條"},{"start":9998.08,"end":10001.08,"text":"那我的11條的條文內容是"},{"start":10001.08,"end":10006.08,"text":"各主管機關應指定專責單位並制營養師"},{"start":10006.08,"end":10009.08,"text":"樂觀能辦理學校飲食業務"},{"start":10009.08,"end":10014.08,"text":"學校以10公尺人數為500人以下者"},{"start":10014.08,"end":10018.08,"text":"應由地方主管機關考量學校校數、班級數及"},{"start":10018.08,"end":10022.08,"text":"分佈距離定員而數"},{"start":10023.83,"end":10026.83,"text":"跨校聯合制營養師至少一人"},{"start":10026.83,"end":10030.83,"text":"超過500人者每滿500人制營養師一人為原則"},{"start":10030.83,"end":10038.83,"text":"為滿500人,於是為達250人者的事業務需求增至一人"},{"start":10038.83,"end":10042.83,"text":"那我們在學校衛生法第23條之一"},{"start":10042.83,"end":10044.83,"text":"第一項、第二項"},{"start":10044.83,"end":10047.83,"text":"裡頭的條文規定說"},{"start":10047.83,"end":10049.83,"text":"高級中等以下學校"},{"start":10049.83,"end":10054.83,"text":"學校以10公尺人數40班以上者的至少制營養師一人"},{"start":10054.83,"end":10056.83,"text":"但如果我們以班來算"},{"start":10056.83,"end":10058.83,"text":"其實現在對這個人數很難進去"},{"start":10058.83,"end":10060.83,"text":"因為大的學校、小的學校"},{"start":10060.83,"end":10062.83,"text":"所以一般的人數"},{"start":10062.83,"end":10065.83,"text":"就用班來算的話是比較不進去"},{"start":10065.83,"end":10069.83,"text":"所以說現在都會希望用人數為單位來計算"},{"start":10069.83,"end":10071.83,"text":"那我自己本身我的"},{"start":10071.25,"end":10073.25,"text":"條文裡面是"},{"start":10073.25,"end":10077.25,"text":"營養師的比例是500學生比1有一個營養師"},{"start":10077.25,"end":10079.25,"text":"那教育部是說"},{"start":10079.25,"end":10082.25,"text":"有來說明說是說現在目前日本的標準"},{"start":10082.25,"end":10085.25,"text":"是550個學生比1個營養師"},{"start":10085.25,"end":10087.25,"text":"那這個比例的話"},{"start":10087.25,"end":10089.25,"text":"我也可以接受"},{"start":10089.25,"end":10091.25,"text":"但是希望說"},{"start":10091.25,"end":10093.25,"text":"我們如何協助"},{"start":10093.25,"end":10095.25,"text":"目前我們如何協助營養師"},{"start":10095.25,"end":10098.25,"text":"執行他們的業務相關的配套"},{"start":10098.25,"end":10101.25,"text":"我希望教育部這邊也要非常的清晰"},{"start":10101.25,"end":10105.25,"text":"因為這個有關我們孩子飲食的衛生及安全"},{"start":10105.25,"end":10107.25,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":10107.25,"end":10110.25,"text":"我希望說教育部對於我們相關的"},{"start":10110.25,"end":10112.25,"text":"執行業務的相關配套"},{"start":10112.25,"end":10114.25,"text":"要必須明確 以上"},{"start":10116.71,"end":10118.71,"text":"好 吳立華委員"},{"start":10119.04,"end":10121.04,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10121.04,"end":10123.04,"text":"第14條的部分"},{"start":10123.04,"end":10126.04,"text":"我這邊對應的是第15條"},{"start":10126.04,"end":10129.04,"text":"那我的版本是有"},{"start":10129.04,"end":10131.04,"text":"明定中央地方"},{"start":10131.04,"end":10136.04,"text":"要設置專責單位跟最低營養師人數"},{"start":10136.04,"end":10139.04,"text":"然後來做一個區分"},{"start":10139.04,"end":10141.04,"text":"就是自辦 委外"},{"start":10141.04,"end":10145.04,"text":"或者外訂中央廚房的一個配置門檻"},{"start":10145.04,"end":10147.04,"text":"那規範大型的學校"},{"start":10147.04,"end":10153.04,"text":"要增至偏遠與非山非市跨校服務"},{"start":10153.04,"end":10156.04,"text":"營養師的職長 中央的補助"},{"start":10156.04,"end":10160.04,"text":"以及偏鄉離島交通住宿的加級"},{"start":10160.04,"end":10164.04,"text":"那跟教育部版的這個若干人"},{"start":10164.04,"end":10166.04,"text":"然後來相較"},{"start":10166.04,"end":10168.04,"text":"或者是多數工餐型態"},{"start":10168.04,"end":10172.04,"text":"是用得志來講應該是更具保障"},{"start":10172.04,"end":10175.04,"text":"那如果沒有營養師"},{"start":10175.04,"end":10178.04,"text":"那這部法要求的菜單 食安"},{"start":10178.04,"end":10181.04,"text":"特殊需求照顧 飲食教育"},{"start":10181.04,"end":10183.04,"text":"跟平台的督導"},{"start":10183.04,"end":10186.04,"text":"會很容易落到現在我們看到的"},{"start":10186.04,"end":10189.04,"text":"就是教師或行政人員的身上"},{"start":10189.04,"end":10193.04,"text":"所以我是想說教育部版這個地方"},{"start":10193.04,"end":10196.04,"text":"他看到的就是自辦午餐以外的"},{"start":10196.04,"end":10200.04,"text":"委外 外訂或中央廚房的共餐"},{"start":10200.04,"end":10203.04,"text":"只寫說得志營養師"},{"start":10203.04,"end":10205.04,"text":"那工商型態不同"},{"start":10205.04,"end":10208.04,"text":"專業責任的話也不會消失"},{"start":10208.04,"end":10211.04,"text":"那外訂的餐盒呢 更需要學校端"},{"start":10211.04,"end":10215.04,"text":"要有人審查菜單 契約跟食安的資訊"},{"start":10215.04,"end":10218.04,"text":"所以我在這邊建議中央"},{"start":10218.04,"end":10221.04,"text":"地方主管機關設置專責單位"},{"start":10221.04,"end":10223.04,"text":"並配置營養師"},{"start":10223.04,"end":10226.04,"text":"那建議委外1100人"},{"start":10226.04,"end":10230.04,"text":"外訂合計3300人的這個"},{"start":10230.04,"end":10233.04,"text":"達到這個門檻就配置或合併"},{"start":10233.04,"end":10236.04,"text":"那我的版本也對自辦學校主張"},{"start":10236.04,"end":10241.04,"text":"550人一名 1100人或40班以上"},{"start":10241.04,"end":10243.04,"text":"得增設人力"},{"start":10243.04,"end":10247.04,"text":"那對原住民族地區偏遠離島或飛山飛市"},{"start":10247.04,"end":10250.04,"text":"那就要依他的距離 校數"},{"start":10250.04,"end":10253.04,"text":"跟班級數增設或合併"},{"start":10253.04,"end":10256.04,"text":"比起那個跨校數的原則"},{"start":10256.04,"end":10258.04,"text":"就是不要超過四校"},{"start":10258.04,"end":10261.04,"text":"所以我這邊特別就是要請教育部說明"},{"start":10261.04,"end":10266.04,"text":"那目前的方案會需要增加多少營養師的人力"},{"start":10266.04,"end":10269.04,"text":"預估的經費規模會是多少"},{"start":10269.04,"end":10271.04,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":10271.04,"end":10274.04,"text":"那學校有下列情形之一者"},{"start":10274.04,"end":10278.04,"text":"應至少就是設置營養師一人"},{"start":10278.04,"end":10281.04,"text":"那自辦午餐學生人數要550人以上"},{"start":10281.04,"end":10285.04,"text":"自辦午餐且供應本校及他校學生午餐"},{"start":10285.04,"end":10287.04,"text":"那還有委外辦理學校午餐"},{"start":10287.04,"end":10289.04,"text":"學生人數達1100人"},{"start":10289.04,"end":10292.04,"text":"或者是前款第一幕或第二幕學校"},{"start":10292.04,"end":10295.04,"text":"學生人數達1100或1500人以上者"},{"start":10295.04,"end":10298.04,"text":"應至少設置營養師兩人"},{"start":10298.04,"end":10301.04,"text":"那1500的話是營養師"},{"start":10301.04,"end":10303.04,"text":"他們也有來啦"},{"start":10303.04,"end":10306.04,"text":"我是營養師全聯會他們是希望1500啦"},{"start":10306.04,"end":10309.04,"text":"那他們是自己預估會增加300人"},{"start":10309.04,"end":10311.04,"text":"經費會多3億"},{"start":10311.04,"end":10312.04,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":10312.04,"end":10316.04,"text":"我是希望說先聽一下教育部這邊做個說明"},{"start":10316.04,"end":10317.04,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10318.47,"end":10320.47,"text":"好 國務卿委員"},{"start":10320.47,"end":10324.47,"text":"好 那這個部分我對應到的是第十條"},{"start":10324.47,"end":10329.47,"text":"那這個部分我特別有講到就是學校班級數"},{"start":10329.47,"end":10330.47,"text":"如果是20班以上"},{"start":10330.47,"end":10333.47,"text":"應至少是營養師一人"},{"start":10333.47,"end":10337.47,"text":"那60班以上者應至少是營養師兩人"},{"start":10337.47,"end":10340.47,"text":"那如果班級數未達20班"},{"start":10340.47,"end":10343.47,"text":"如有設置就是廚房之學校"},{"start":10343.47,"end":10346.47,"text":"也應該至少是營養師一人"},{"start":10346.47,"end":10348.47,"text":"那班級數未達20班之學校"},{"start":10348.47,"end":10351.47,"text":"應跨校聯合聘任營養師"},{"start":10351.47,"end":10356.47,"text":"那其設置的標準由中央主管機關考量學校"},{"start":10356.47,"end":10360.47,"text":"校數班級數及分部的距離定制"},{"start":10360.47,"end":10364.47,"text":"那我想這個部分還是要針對目前我們"},{"start":10364.47,"end":10369.47,"text":"也擔心這個營養師的全國分配的"},{"start":10369.47,"end":10372.47,"text":"極度的比較不平衡的一個狀況"},{"start":10372.47,"end":10374.47,"text":"那希望能夠這個降低"},{"start":10374.47,"end":10377.47,"text":"那希望每間學校至少都有一些專業的人力"},{"start":10377.47,"end":10379.47,"text":"能夠來把關這個食安的一個部分"},{"start":10379.47,"end":10381.47,"text":"那推動我們的飲食教育"},{"start":10381.47,"end":10384.47,"text":"那剛剛其實吳立華委員有特別提到"},{"start":10384.47,"end":10385.47,"text":"我也想要聽聽看"},{"start":10385.47,"end":10390.47,"text":"如果說我們把這樣子的設置營養師的一個條件門檻"},{"start":10390.47,"end":10392.47,"text":"那把它設定之後"},{"start":10392.47,"end":10395.47,"text":"那我們大概會增加多少的預算"},{"start":10395.47,"end":10399.47,"text":"那預計會多多少的這個營養師"},{"start":10399.47,"end":10401.47,"text":"也想請教育部這邊來做說明"},{"start":10401.47,"end":10402.47,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":10402.69,"end":10404.69,"text":"好 請驗證委員發言"},{"start":10408.13,"end":10411.13,"text":"因為那個我們現在學校營養午餐"},{"start":10411.87,"end":10413.87,"text":"全國各縣市通通都免費"},{"start":10414.25,"end":10416.25,"text":"所以其實家長現在對於營養午餐"},{"start":10416.25,"end":10418.25,"text":"到底吃的營不營養"},{"start":10418.25,"end":10420.25,"text":"健不健康 安不安全"},{"start":10420.25,"end":10422.25,"text":"更加的重視"},{"start":10422.25,"end":10425.25,"text":"然後這一次發生這個問題油的事件"},{"start":10425.25,"end":10428.25,"text":"就是很多問題油的食品都已經流向學校"},{"start":10428.25,"end":10430.25,"text":"其實家長也都非常的擔心"},{"start":10430.25,"end":10432.25,"text":"那時候教育部在追查這些問題油的時候"},{"start":10432.25,"end":10437.25,"text":"其實他們是會看一個這個食材登錄網"},{"start":10437.25,"end":10440.25,"text":"但是食材登錄網到底登的確不確實"},{"start":10440.25,"end":10442.25,"text":"其實那個也是一個問題"},{"start":10442.25,"end":10444.25,"text":"好 第二個問題是"},{"start":10444.49,"end":10446.49,"text":"其實如果要叫老師去登的話"},{"start":10446.49,"end":10447.49,"text":"老師也很忙"},{"start":10447.49,"end":10449.49,"text":"老師除了要登這個食材登錄網"},{"start":10449.49,"end":10450.49,"text":"還有什麼三張EQ"},{"start":10450.49,"end":10452.49,"text":"一大堆行政作業要做"},{"start":10452.49,"end":10454.49,"text":"那我最有發現就是"},{"start":10454.49,"end":10456.49,"text":"有營養師的學校"},{"start":10456.49,"end":10458.49,"text":"他做得特別好"},{"start":10458.49,"end":10461.49,"text":"不只是在登錄這一塊行政作業流程"},{"start":10461.49,"end":10464.49,"text":"然後甚至於就是從食材的把關到"},{"start":10464.49,"end":10467.49,"text":"廚房去盯廚房的製作等等"},{"start":10467.49,"end":10469.49,"text":"有營養師的學校都做得特別好"},{"start":10469.49,"end":10471.49,"text":"所以我至"},{"start":10470.48,"end":10472.48,"text":"我現在要提一個修正動議"},{"start":10472.48,"end":10474.48,"text":"我是覺得我是建議"},{"start":10474.11,"end":10476.11,"text":"不要死 有"},{"start":10475.93,"end":10477.93,"text":"班級數的限制"},{"start":10477.93,"end":10478.93,"text":"你現在比如說"},{"start":10478.93,"end":10481.93,"text":"我就以羅平偉這個版本來講的話"},{"start":10481.93,"end":10484.93,"text":"40班以上要有一個營養師"},{"start":10484.93,"end":10486.93,"text":"那39班呢"},{"start":10486.93,"end":10487.93,"text":"39班的學生"},{"start":10488.69,"end":10490.69,"text":"也需要營養師把關"},{"start":10490.69,"end":10491.69,"text":"然後自辦午餐"},{"start":10491.69,"end":10494.69,"text":"公餐人數達550人以上"},{"start":10494.69,"end":10496.69,"text":"那如果是500人呢 400人呢"},{"start":10496.69,"end":10498.69,"text":"那現在難道他們不需要"},{"start":10500.15,"end":10502.15,"text":"營養師嗎 所以"},{"start":10502.04,"end":10504.04,"text":"我會建議啦"},{"start":10504.87,"end":10505.87,"text":"我們不要用人數"},{"start":10505.87,"end":10508.87,"text":"我覺得建議應該是每個學校都應該要有營養師"},{"start":10508.87,"end":10511.87,"text":"不分人數多少"},{"start":10511.87,"end":10512.87,"text":"應該都要吃的健康"},{"start":10512.87,"end":10514.87,"text":"特別是免費營養午餐之後"},{"start":10514.87,"end":10516.87,"text":"那當然教育部也可以講一下"},{"start":10516.87,"end":10519.87,"text":"如果不要有人數限制的話"},{"start":10519.87,"end":10521.87,"text":"那這樣預算可以增加多少"},{"start":10521.87,"end":10526.87,"text":"然後那我是了解地方政府其實也都蠻願意配合"},{"start":10526.87,"end":10527.87,"text":"只是"},{"start":10528.29,"end":10529.29,"text":"因為母法一直沒過"},{"start":10530.05,"end":10533.05,"text":"所以就沒有一個依據去跟地方政府的財政啊"},{"start":10533.05,"end":10536.05,"text":"主計單位去爭取營養師的預算"},{"start":10536.49,"end":10539.49,"text":"所以也希望這個可以趕快過啦"},{"start":10539.49,"end":10542.49,"text":"然後教育部也可以講一下大概是多少錢"},{"start":10542.49,"end":10543.49,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10544.66,"end":10545.66,"text":"好 請教育部回應"},{"start":10549.12,"end":10550.12,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":10550.12,"end":10554.12,"text":"再配合剛剛柯市長委員是有一個新的修正動議整體說明"},{"start":10554.12,"end":10560.12,"text":"那首先這個條文原來的設計有包含機關要治多少人"},{"start":10560.12,"end":10562.12,"text":"然後學校治多少人"},{"start":10562.12,"end":10566.12,"text":"那學校各種工餐型態怎麼來幫忙"},{"start":10566.85,"end":10569.85,"text":"那再來就是營養師的職責"},{"start":10570.72,"end":10573.72,"text":"好 那以這幾個結構來講"},{"start":10574.68,"end":10576.68,"text":"柯政委員所提的"},{"start":10576.68,"end":10579.68,"text":"就有提到前面幾項"},{"start":10579.68,"end":10582.68,"text":"職責的部分就沒有特別提到"},{"start":10582.68,"end":10584.68,"text":"那這個是在原來相關的法規中有的"},{"start":10584.68,"end":10589.68,"text":"我們只是讓營養師工作的時候不要覺得好像可以一直外加給他們"},{"start":10589.68,"end":10593.68,"text":"而且有一個按照原來法規的一個職長範圍"},{"start":10593.68,"end":10596.68,"text":"所以職長的部分我們原來有寫"},{"start":10596.68,"end":10599.68,"text":"接著我就分別就幾個核心的"},{"start":10599.68,"end":10602.68,"text":"尤其是人數做一個說明"},{"start":10603.42,"end":10604.42,"text":"就機關"},{"start":10604.64,"end":10606.64,"text":"原來是要治幾個人這個"},{"start":10607.32,"end":10612.32,"text":"好 那因為有很多大小的規模"},{"start":10612.32,"end":10615.32,"text":"各縣市可能在台灣的確非常的不一樣"},{"start":10616.33,"end":10621.33,"text":"以台北市 新北市跟離島連江縣來看"},{"start":10623.06,"end":10626.06,"text":"那麼他的範圍 工作的範圍"},{"start":10626.06,"end":10629.06,"text":"跟他所轄的學生數差異很大"},{"start":10629.06,"end":10634.06,"text":"一個新北市常常他的數值是全國的五分之一 六分之一"},{"start":10635.2,"end":10640.2,"text":"那連江縣一個縣市 整個縣市的學生數"},{"start":10641.36,"end":10643.36,"text":"所以整體而言"},{"start":10643.36,"end":10647.36,"text":"我們原來想的是尊重地方"},{"start":10647.36,"end":10650.36,"text":"在他要列相關的人數時"},{"start":10650.36,"end":10651.36,"text":"應該要有所尊重"},{"start":10651.36,"end":10654.36,"text":"那所以現在如果定名要擠人的時候"},{"start":10654.36,"end":10658.36,"text":"恐怕跟原來地方政府看到是尊重的情況"},{"start":10658.36,"end":10661.36,"text":"會有一點點跟他們原來設想不一"},{"start":10661.36,"end":10664.36,"text":"那這個再請委員再參考一下"},{"start":10664.36,"end":10667.36,"text":"就是縣市的規模實在差異非常的大"},{"start":10667.36,"end":10669.36,"text":"再來就是講到學校"},{"start":10670.53,"end":10673.53,"text":"學校現在有數種公餐型態"},{"start":10673.53,"end":10675.53,"text":"委員都講得非常的清楚"},{"start":10675.53,"end":10679.53,"text":"那目前教育部原版本是對自辦午餐"},{"start":10679.53,"end":10681.53,"text":"跟供應他校的也是自辦午餐"},{"start":10682.55,"end":10686.55,"text":"整體而言大概都比較是"},{"start":10688.19,"end":10694.19,"text":"所以公家的我們對於在投入人力上"},{"start":10694.19,"end":10696.19,"text":"可能原來他本來一直以來"},{"start":10696.19,"end":10699.19,"text":"都是政府機關應該要協助的"},{"start":10699.19,"end":10705.19,"text":"所以對非比較直接是公辦公營這一類的"},{"start":10705.7,"end":10707.7,"text":"或是公辦公營"},{"start":10707.94,"end":10708.94,"text":"有"},{"start":10709.09,"end":10711.09,"text":"我們他校供應"},{"start":10711.09,"end":10714.09,"text":"但都本質上他是公校供應公辦公營的"},{"start":10715.93,"end":10717.93,"text":"這個我們有協助"},{"start":10718.9,"end":10719.9,"text":"像"},{"start":10720.28,"end":10723.28,"text":"目前委員這邊提到的委外辦午餐的"},{"start":10724.52,"end":10726.52,"text":"或是外定團散"},{"start":10727.06,"end":10729.06,"text":"在前面法律可以通過的"},{"start":10729.06,"end":10731.06,"text":"其實就是公辦民營的"},{"start":10731.06,"end":10733.06,"text":"跟外定團散"},{"start":10734.12,"end":10736.12,"text":"就是這兩個"},{"start":10736.29,"end":10741.29,"text":"那麼基本上跟公辦公營的屬性就有點差異"},{"start":10741.29,"end":10742.29,"text":"在原來的設計"},{"start":10742.29,"end":10746.29,"text":"這個因為是原來是廠商得標"},{"start":10746.29,"end":10749.29,"text":"所以地方政府在談這件事的時候"},{"start":10749.29,"end":10753.29,"text":"那會有整體在學生繳費之後"},{"start":10753.29,"end":10756.29,"text":"廠商來招攬招標之後"},{"start":10756.29,"end":10759.29,"text":"就應該有一些他整體的考慮"},{"start":10759.29,"end":10760.29,"text":"他也應該有負擔"},{"start":10760.29,"end":10762.29,"text":"他因負擔之處"},{"start":10762.29,"end":10765.29,"text":"所以原來我們負擔的是200人左右"},{"start":10765.29,"end":10768.29,"text":"那如果照委員所提的版本"},{"start":10768.29,"end":10770.29,"text":"應該會加到了"},{"start":10771.21,"end":10773.21,"text":"683人"},{"start":10773.71,"end":10776.71,"text":"就是照3跟4如果再外加進來"},{"start":10776.71,"end":10780.71,"text":"可能會加到將近680到700人"},{"start":10781.91,"end":10783.91,"text":"就再外加"},{"start":10783.91,"end":10788.91,"text":"那當然我們以一位營養師年薪或相關的"},{"start":10788.91,"end":10790.91,"text":"整個獎金這樣看"},{"start":10790.91,"end":10793.91,"text":"我們目前是用106萬估"},{"start":10793.91,"end":10794.91,"text":"用大數很快的估"},{"start":10794.91,"end":10797.91,"text":"因為等一下業委員也有提一個全部"},{"start":10797.91,"end":10799.91,"text":"我們就用100萬來估"},{"start":10800.6,"end":10801.6,"text":"類似這樣"},{"start":10801.6,"end":10802.6,"text":"只差6萬"},{"start":10802.6,"end":10803.6,"text":"但是會更高的意思"},{"start":10803.6,"end":10806.6,"text":"會比我現在講的用100萬來"},{"start":10806.6,"end":10808.6,"text":"很快的大數來估會更多"},{"start":10808.6,"end":10810.6,"text":"那大數來估"},{"start":10810.8,"end":10811.8,"text":"200人"},{"start":10812.25,"end":10813.25,"text":"就2億"},{"start":10814.24,"end":10817.24,"text":"1000人就10億"},{"start":10818.27,"end":10821.27,"text":"全部的學校3800多"},{"start":10821.27,"end":10822.27,"text":"就38億了"},{"start":10822.27,"end":10824.27,"text":"大概是這樣"},{"start":10824.27,"end":10825.27,"text":"所以剛剛業委員講的"},{"start":10825.27,"end":10827.27,"text":"那個就是38億到"},{"start":10827.27,"end":10829.27,"text":"因為我用100萬"},{"start":10829.27,"end":10830.27,"text":"不是用106萬"},{"start":10830.27,"end":10832.27,"text":"可能會到40億左右等等"},{"start":10833.8,"end":10837.8,"text":"好 以上是學校層級這個人的"},{"start":10842.07,"end":10845.07,"text":"對 剛剛有講是大概683人"},{"start":10845.07,"end":10847.07,"text":"大概就7.23億了"},{"start":10847.07,"end":10849.07,"text":"用106萬來估"},{"start":10849.07,"end":10851.07,"text":"大概7.23億再外加"},{"start":10851.07,"end":10854.07,"text":"原來我們估的是2.3億左右"},{"start":10854.07,"end":10855.07,"text":"2.3"},{"start":10857.27,"end":10858.27,"text":"原來我們估的那個"},{"start":10858.27,"end":10860.27,"text":"抱歉 2.78億"},{"start":10860.27,"end":10862.27,"text":"如果再加 增加的"},{"start":10862.27,"end":10865.27,"text":"可能會再外加7.23億"},{"start":10866.3,"end":10868.3,"text":"但是這一整個"},{"start":10868.3,"end":10871.3,"text":"委員剛剛也有詳細問到說"},{"start":10871.3,"end":10872.3,"text":"原來談這個"},{"start":10872.3,"end":10874.3,"text":"是因為有跟地方政府"},{"start":10874.3,"end":10877.3,"text":"那麼大家也有一些商量"},{"start":10877.3,"end":10879.3,"text":"那要外加三跟四"},{"start":10879.3,"end":10881.3,"text":"我們要說一句話"},{"start":10881.3,"end":10883.3,"text":"營養師在我很多次會議"},{"start":10884.24,"end":10886.24,"text":"我感覺到營養師"},{"start":10886.24,"end":10888.24,"text":"是對我們學校工餐上"},{"start":10888.24,"end":10890.24,"text":"一個不管在營養或食安上"},{"start":10890.99,"end":10891.99,"text":"非常重要的力量"},{"start":10891.99,"end":10894.99,"text":"我們是非常肯定他們的協助"},{"start":10894.99,"end":10896.99,"text":"那現在就怎麼樣那個情況是"},{"start":10896.99,"end":10898.99,"text":"比較能夠幫忙學校"},{"start":10898.99,"end":10899.99,"text":"幫忙地方政府"},{"start":10899.99,"end":10901.99,"text":"那個合理的方式"},{"start":10901.99,"end":10902.99,"text":"再加上"},{"start":10903.44,"end":10905.44,"text":"不管是空辦民營或是外定團散"},{"start":10905.44,"end":10908.44,"text":"也本來有民間廠商的力量"},{"start":10908.44,"end":10910.44,"text":"那這些怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":10910.44,"end":10913.44,"text":"是不是本來我們"},{"start":10913.95,"end":10915.95,"text":"做的這個有一些得的設計"},{"start":10915.95,"end":10917.95,"text":"就是來保留彈性"},{"start":10917.95,"end":10919.95,"text":"讓地方一起來考慮"},{"start":10919.95,"end":10921.95,"text":"營養師的專業貢獻"},{"start":10921.95,"end":10922.95,"text":"其實很有價值"},{"start":10922.95,"end":10923.95,"text":"但是地方的財力"},{"start":10923.95,"end":10925.95,"text":"怎麼來應付"},{"start":10925.95,"end":10928.95,"text":"這個負荷得了"},{"start":10928.95,"end":10931.95,"text":"以及在真實的情境上"},{"start":10931.95,"end":10933.95,"text":"怎麼在現實之間"},{"start":10933.95,"end":10935.95,"text":"它的整體規格差異很大"},{"start":10935.95,"end":10937.95,"text":"我舉一個例子"},{"start":10939.52,"end":10944.52,"text":"以現在全台灣的小小校"},{"start":10944.52,"end":10947.52,"text":"將近有一千校六班的學校"},{"start":10947.97,"end":10949.97,"text":"所以如果"},{"start":10951.3,"end":10955.3,"text":"他們也是跟其他學校一起共餐"},{"start":10955.3,"end":10957.3,"text":"那不管是他採工辦公營"},{"start":10958.5,"end":10961.5,"text":"公辦民營它本來就是他校公餐"},{"start":10961.5,"end":10963.5,"text":"那它有一些事"},{"start":10963.5,"end":10965.5,"text":"它不是那麼直接要處理"},{"start":10965.5,"end":10968.5,"text":"那是不是行政減量上的這種方向"},{"start":10968.5,"end":10970.5,"text":"它應該有很多工作"},{"start":10970.5,"end":10973.5,"text":"是集中在那整個群長的學校"},{"start":10973.5,"end":10977.5,"text":"或是聯合後那個中心的學校"},{"start":10977.5,"end":10979.5,"text":"其實也是幫忙學校"},{"start":10979.5,"end":10983.5,"text":"不必再特別去關心這個很行政的事"},{"start":10984.34,"end":10985.34,"text":"不是行政減量"},{"start":10985.34,"end":10986.34,"text":"我們應該是源頭上"},{"start":10987.38,"end":10990.38,"text":"他們沒有這個行政的這麼大的負荷"},{"start":10990.38,"end":10991.38,"text":"這也是我們一直在想"},{"start":10991.38,"end":10993.38,"text":"怎麼用群的力量"},{"start":10993.38,"end":10995.38,"text":"前面有講到聯合的力量"},{"start":10995.38,"end":10996.38,"text":"讓學校"},{"start":10997.4,"end":10999.4,"text":"有一些事是連辦"},{"start":10999.4,"end":11001.4,"text":"它都不必一定要特別辦"},{"start":11001.4,"end":11003.4,"text":"所以是不是這一條"},{"start":11003.4,"end":11004.4,"text":"我們是好好商量"},{"start":11004.4,"end":11006.4,"text":"讓委員這邊可以參考"},{"start":11006.4,"end":11007.4,"text":"可以給我們一點時間"},{"start":11010.6,"end":11012.6,"text":"好 有委員提案保留"},{"start":11012.6,"end":11015.6,"text":"好 我們就本條文保留"},{"start":11020.05,"end":11023.05,"text":"第15條 台灣民眾黨黨團提案等"},{"start":11023.05,"end":11026.05,"text":"第10條及第11條等39個提案"},{"start":11026.05,"end":11028.05,"text":"以及委員羅廷瑋柯志恩等人所提"},{"start":11028.05,"end":11029.05,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":11030.27,"end":11032.27,"text":"提醒討論 請委員"},{"start":11032.4,"end":11033.4,"text":"取消討論"},{"start":11036.1,"end":11038.1,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11038.41,"end":11039.41,"text":"蔡選手委員"},{"start":11041.02,"end":11043.02,"text":"陳秀寶委員 謝謝"},{"start":11044.97,"end":11045.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11047.28,"end":11050.28,"text":"針對第15條"},{"start":11050.28,"end":11053.28,"text":"這一個 飲料 直銜秘書"},{"start":11053.28,"end":11057.28,"text":"在這裡 我建議就是要讓它專任化"},{"start":11057.28,"end":11060.28,"text":"不要由老師來兼職"},{"start":11060.28,"end":11062.28,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":11062.28,"end":11063.28,"text":"也許會說"},{"start":11063.28,"end":11065.28,"text":"這樣會增加一個"},{"start":11065.28,"end":11067.28,"text":"又增加一個"},{"start":11067.28,"end":11069.28,"text":"這個監會 增加議員"},{"start":11069.28,"end":11071.28,"text":"所以會增加監會"},{"start":11071.28,"end":11073.28,"text":"事實上我在這裡可以"},{"start":11073.28,"end":11075.28,"text":"就是由職員來兼"},{"start":11075.28,"end":11077.28,"text":"或者是說以公待職"},{"start":11077.28,"end":11078.28,"text":"這樣子來"},{"start":11078.28,"end":11081.28,"text":"不要再讓老師來兼這個"},{"start":11081.28,"end":11082.28,"text":"午餐秘書"},{"start":11082.28,"end":11085.28,"text":"讓他們的行政量太大"},{"start":11085.28,"end":11088.28,"text":"然後來影響學生的一個受教權"},{"start":11088.28,"end":11090.28,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":11092.44,"end":11094.44,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員"},{"start":11095.07,"end":11096.07,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":11096.07,"end":11098.07,"text":"在就第15條的部分"},{"start":11098.07,"end":11101.07,"text":"對應我自己的版本是放在第12條"},{"start":11101.07,"end":11103.07,"text":"那"},{"start":11103.07,"end":11106.07,"text":"我的條文裡面有寫"},{"start":11107.66,"end":11109.66,"text":"條文裡面有寫"},{"start":11111.05,"end":11114.05,"text":"除務人員的資格條件設置人數"},{"start":11114.05,"end":11116.05,"text":"教育訓練及相關規定"},{"start":11116.05,"end":11120.05,"text":"由各該主管機關定制"},{"start":11120.05,"end":11123.05,"text":"還有對應到我自己的第13條裡面"},{"start":11123.05,"end":11126.05,"text":"學校應設置飲食直行秘書"},{"start":11126.05,"end":11129.05,"text":"負責學校飲食的這個相關的業務"},{"start":11129.05,"end":11132.05,"text":"那前項的飲食直行秘書"},{"start":11132.05,"end":11134.05,"text":"得由學校教職員兼任"},{"start":11134.05,"end":11138.05,"text":"學校應依規定減少其授課結束"},{"start":11138.05,"end":11140.05,"text":"其設置人數及其相關規定"},{"start":11140.05,"end":11143.05,"text":"由各該主管機關定制"},{"start":11143.05,"end":11145.05,"text":"本席覺得說除務人員"},{"start":11145.05,"end":11147.05,"text":"因為是需要是各縣市"},{"start":11147.05,"end":11150.05,"text":"辦理學校飲食的狀況"},{"start":11150.05,"end":11152.05,"text":"所以進行相關配置"},{"start":11152.05,"end":11154.05,"text":"也應該要因地制宜"},{"start":11154.05,"end":11156.05,"text":"所以"},{"start":11156.08,"end":11157.08,"text":"本席沒有覺得說"},{"start":11157.08,"end":11159.08,"text":"要把它直接固定在母法"},{"start":11159.08,"end":11162.08,"text":"所以授權給主管機關來訂定"},{"start":11162.08,"end":11164.08,"text":"那飲食直行秘書的部分"},{"start":11164.08,"end":11166.08,"text":"如果是兼任呢"},{"start":11166.08,"end":11168.08,"text":"因為飲食直行秘書的工作"},{"start":11168.08,"end":11169.08,"text":"如果要落實"},{"start":11169.08,"end":11171.08,"text":"本席覺得說也應該要減少"},{"start":11171.08,"end":11173.08,"text":"他本身的授課時數"},{"start":11173.08,"end":11177.08,"text":"對學校的飲食相關事項推動"},{"start":11177.08,"end":11180.08,"text":"比較有辦法去執行"},{"start":11180.08,"end":11182.08,"text":"那目前呢"},{"start":11182.08,"end":11184.08,"text":"我們的飲食直行秘書"},{"start":11184.08,"end":11187.08,"text":"百分之41以上是由教師兼任"},{"start":11187.08,"end":11190.08,"text":"那如果說是改為組長職"},{"start":11190.08,"end":11192.08,"text":"也會遇到說寒暑假"},{"start":11192.08,"end":11194.08,"text":"能在需要上班"},{"start":11194.08,"end":11196.08,"text":"但是沒有業務執行這個問題"},{"start":11196.08,"end":11198.08,"text":"所以這個部分呢"},{"start":11198.85,"end":11202.85,"text":"其實我是尊重教育部這邊的條文"},{"start":11202.85,"end":11204.85,"text":"但是就是說"},{"start":11204.85,"end":11206.85,"text":"我是很建議說我們"},{"start":11206.85,"end":11208.85,"text":"應該給地方的主管機關"},{"start":11208.85,"end":11212.85,"text":"有因地制宜他們的這個權限跟彈性"},{"start":11212.85,"end":11217.85,"text":"不要就是說直接很硬的規定在母法裡面"},{"start":11219.73,"end":11221.73,"text":"下一位吳立華委員"},{"start":11221.73,"end":11223.73,"text":"再來柯志恩委員"},{"start":11223.07,"end":11225.07,"text":"對不起我們先"},{"start":11225.85,"end":11227.85,"text":"柯志恩委員"},{"start":11251.47,"end":11253.47,"text":"好 吳立華委員"},{"start":11253.46,"end":11255.46,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11255.46,"end":11260.46,"text":"這一條對應我是在第13條跟第14條"},{"start":11260.46,"end":11262.46,"text":"那主要我的版本是說"},{"start":11262.46,"end":11266.46,"text":"把這個共產執行秘書它的資格"},{"start":11266.46,"end":11269.46,"text":"聘認、業務跟薪資"},{"start":11269.46,"end":11273.46,"text":"還有學校出工的勞動基準法的保障"},{"start":11273.46,"end":11276.46,"text":"工時的工資、教育訓練、人力的比例"},{"start":11276.46,"end":11278.46,"text":"以及中央的補助"},{"start":11278.46,"end":11280.46,"text":"一併地把它寫進去"},{"start":11280.46,"end":11282.46,"text":"那至於這個部分"},{"start":11282.46,"end":11284.46,"text":"我們也會提供一些的資料"},{"start":11284.46,"end":11288.46,"text":"讓制度跟勞動條件能夠更真完善"},{"start":11288.46,"end":11290.46,"text":"那至於午餐秘書"},{"start":11290.46,"end":11292.46,"text":"是不是一定要專職"},{"start":11292.46,"end":11294.46,"text":"或者是一律要求"},{"start":11294.46,"end":11297.46,"text":"一定要組長化或專職化"},{"start":11297.46,"end":11299.46,"text":"那我個人認為這個部分是"},{"start":11299.46,"end":11301.46,"text":"可以大家來討論"},{"start":11301.46,"end":11303.46,"text":"但是我特別強調"},{"start":11303.46,"end":11306.46,"text":"就是各校公餐的規模跟寒暑假的運作"},{"start":11306.46,"end":11308.46,"text":"不盡相同"},{"start":11308.46,"end":11310.46,"text":"那在這種情況下"},{"start":11310.46,"end":11312.46,"text":"我們也會在這個情況下"},{"start":11312.46,"end":11314.46,"text":"去承擔這種採購"},{"start":11314.46,"end":11317.46,"text":"食安、帳務跟廠商的管理"},{"start":11317.46,"end":11319.46,"text":"這個責任太重了"},{"start":11319.46,"end":11321.46,"text":"那儲物人員的部分"},{"start":11321.46,"end":11323.46,"text":"本席就是原來的版本"},{"start":11323.46,"end":11326.46,"text":"有曾經提出說人數的比例"},{"start":11326.46,"end":11328.46,"text":"但是尊重啦"},{"start":11328.46,"end":11331.46,"text":"就是考量地方規模跟財政的差異"},{"start":11331.46,"end":11333.46,"text":"是可以依照教育部的版本"},{"start":11333.46,"end":11335.46,"text":"由地方來訂定"},{"start":11335.46,"end":11337.46,"text":"那最重要的就是"},{"start":11337.46,"end":11339.46,"text":"要有最低的安全基準"},{"start":11339.46,"end":11342.46,"text":"那避免長期以過少的人力"},{"start":11342.46,"end":11344.46,"text":"來供應大量的餐食"},{"start":11344.46,"end":11345.46,"text":"那以上做這樣的說明"},{"start":11345.46,"end":11346.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11345.67,"end":11346.67,"text":"國務卿會員"},{"start":11347.44,"end":11348.44,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11348.44,"end":11349.44,"text":"那這一條的部分"},{"start":11349.44,"end":11351.44,"text":"其實我對應到的自己的版本"},{"start":11351.44,"end":11354.44,"text":"是第11條跟第12條"},{"start":11354.44,"end":11355.44,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":11355.44,"end":11359.44,"text":"其實我是提倡設置這個專責的學校飲食秘書"},{"start":11359.44,"end":11362.44,"text":"也就是說這個不版所稱的"},{"start":11362.44,"end":11364.44,"text":"這個執行秘書的部分"},{"start":11364.44,"end":11366.44,"text":"但是因為他們在處理事務"},{"start":11366.44,"end":11367.44,"text":"其實非常繁瑣"},{"start":11367.44,"end":11370.44,"text":"那如果說這個學校"},{"start":11370.44,"end":11371.44,"text":"不管是這個原住民啊"},{"start":11371.44,"end":11373.44,"text":"偏遠啊或離島地區"},{"start":11373.44,"end":11375.44,"text":"他的學生比例非不得已"},{"start":11375.44,"end":11376.44,"text":"非不得已喔"},{"start":11376.44,"end":11378.44,"text":"必須要有所謂的這個專任"},{"start":11378.44,"end":11380.44,"text":"或是兼任的一個方式喔"},{"start":11380.44,"end":11381.44,"text":"那我想這個部分"},{"start":11381.44,"end":11383.44,"text":"或者是由老師來做兼任"},{"start":11383.44,"end":11385.44,"text":"那也應該要大幅的減少"},{"start":11385.44,"end":11387.44,"text":"他授課的結束啦"},{"start":11387.44,"end":11390.44,"text":"然後來確保他能夠"},{"start":11390.44,"end":11392.44,"text":"這個老師的負擔不要那麼的重喔"},{"start":11392.44,"end":11394.44,"text":"這是我主要的一個"},{"start":11394.44,"end":11398.44,"text":"第11條跟第12條對應到的條文的內容"},{"start":11398.44,"end":11399.44,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":11401.81,"end":11402.81,"text":"好"},{"start":11403.48,"end":11405.48,"text":"那請下一步回應"},{"start":11409,"end":11410,"text":"謝謝趙偉"},{"start":11412.17,"end":11414.17,"text":"市會的委員所發言的"},{"start":11415.33,"end":11417.33,"text":"這個內容中我跟大家報告"},{"start":11417.33,"end":11420.33,"text":"第一個是專兼任這個事情"},{"start":11420.33,"end":11423.33,"text":"專兼任這個剛剛陳委員已經有分析"},{"start":11423.33,"end":11425.33,"text":"就是說專任的話"},{"start":11425.33,"end":11428.33,"text":"他會涉及到寒暑假的沒有工餐"},{"start":11428.33,"end":11430.33,"text":"他卻要到學校整整"},{"start":11430.33,"end":11432.33,"text":"大概有三個月的時間"},{"start":11432.33,"end":11433.33,"text":"不一定合理"},{"start":11433.33,"end":11435.33,"text":"所以在諮詢現場的時候"},{"start":11435.33,"end":11437.33,"text":"也不一定那麼支持"},{"start":11437.33,"end":11438.33,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":11438.33,"end":11440.33,"text":"所以有委員說專任這個"},{"start":11440.33,"end":11442.33,"text":"那就有人想到"},{"start":11442.33,"end":11444.33,"text":"用別的方式來處理"},{"start":11444.33,"end":11445.33,"text":"包含地方政府"},{"start":11445.33,"end":11446.33,"text":"最近也有想到"},{"start":11446.33,"end":11449.33,"text":"譬如說剛剛郭委員提到"},{"start":11450.48,"end":11452.48,"text":"地方狀況很不一"},{"start":11452.48,"end":11454.48,"text":"那最近地方政府因為有這個"},{"start":11454.48,"end":11456.48,"text":"4165億的挹注之後"},{"start":11456.48,"end":11458.48,"text":"紛紛有一些比較"},{"start":11459.32,"end":11461.32,"text":"對於地方上的因為經費"},{"start":11461.85,"end":11463.85,"text":"更彈性之後"},{"start":11463.85,"end":11465.85,"text":"有一些更彈性的"},{"start":11465.85,"end":11467.85,"text":"作為來應應地方的需求"},{"start":11467.85,"end":11469.85,"text":"所以的確"},{"start":11469.85,"end":11471.85,"text":"以我們目前第15條的寫法"},{"start":11471.85,"end":11473.85,"text":"就是在我們去會商"},{"start":11473.85,"end":11475.85,"text":"地方政府的時候"},{"start":11475.85,"end":11477.85,"text":"他們就會有一些比較"},{"start":11477.85,"end":11479.85,"text":"在近期內比較好的做法"},{"start":11479.85,"end":11481.85,"text":"甚至授課結束"},{"start":11481.85,"end":11483.85,"text":"再多減一點"},{"start":11483.85,"end":11485.85,"text":"來讓學校可以滿足"},{"start":11485.85,"end":11487.85,"text":"接近"},{"start":11487.85,"end":11489.85,"text":"更多的時間應該讓"},{"start":11489.85,"end":11491.85,"text":"專任的那個概念"},{"start":11491.85,"end":11492.85,"text":"但是又不會衝擊到"},{"start":11492.85,"end":11493.85,"text":"海鼠下又要來"},{"start":11494.94,"end":11496.94,"text":"好所以地方政府的確有在想"},{"start":11498.07,"end":11500.07,"text":"那現在其實地方政府在這一次"},{"start":11500.95,"end":11504.95,"text":"局長7月7號7月8號的會議中"},{"start":11504.95,"end":11506.95,"text":"我們提到一個很大的議題就是"},{"start":11506.95,"end":11508.95,"text":"大家來想新的時代"},{"start":11508.95,"end":11512.95,"text":"有一些可以從源頭就減量的作為"},{"start":11514.4,"end":11516.4,"text":"包含聯合行政"},{"start":11516.4,"end":11518.4,"text":"包含用新的科技或AI"},{"start":11518.4,"end":11522.4,"text":"讓行政在源頭時就"},{"start":11522.4,"end":11524.4,"text":"不必再有一些學校內"},{"start":11525.3,"end":11527.3,"text":"而不是講先給他有行政工作"},{"start":11527.3,"end":11529.3,"text":"才叫他找人"},{"start":11529.99,"end":11531.99,"text":"所以第15條我們覺得"},{"start":11531.99,"end":11533.99,"text":"可能可以尊重"},{"start":11533.99,"end":11535.99,"text":"目前的發展方向"},{"start":11535.99,"end":11537.99,"text":"是不是讓我們跟地方多談一下"},{"start":11537.99,"end":11539.99,"text":"我們有些從源頭來減量"},{"start":11542.46,"end":11544.46,"text":"有一些從真正他們在資源"},{"start":11544.46,"end":11546.46,"text":"可以挹注老師上"},{"start":11546.46,"end":11548.46,"text":"再多給他談性"},{"start":11548.46,"end":11550.46,"text":"以目前的條文"},{"start":11550.46,"end":11552.46,"text":"那我們就有這樣的設想"},{"start":11552.46,"end":11554.46,"text":"來幫忙地方給他這樣的一個"},{"start":11554.46,"end":11556.46,"text":"權力來多幫忙學校"},{"start":11556.46,"end":11558.46,"text":"那以上還有對"},{"start":11558.46,"end":11560.46,"text":"儲公的部分"},{"start":11560.46,"end":11562.46,"text":"那我也這邊做一個說明"},{"start":11562.46,"end":11564.46,"text":"儲公的部分"},{"start":11565.31,"end":11567.31,"text":"目前是大概1比250"},{"start":11568.97,"end":11570.97,"text":"但是地方政府"},{"start":11570.97,"end":11572.97,"text":"因為就學生人數已經慢慢變少了"},{"start":11572.97,"end":11574.97,"text":"所以分分也有做一些調節"},{"start":11574.97,"end":11576.97,"text":"但是現在就是"},{"start":11576.97,"end":11578.97,"text":"如果我們母法上"},{"start":11578.97,"end":11580.97,"text":"有寫人數的話"},{"start":11580.97,"end":11582.97,"text":"就如現在的問題"},{"start":11582.97,"end":11584.97,"text":"可能有些你寫得太多了"},{"start":11584.97,"end":11586.97,"text":"那他可能就改不了變少"},{"start":11586.97,"end":11588.97,"text":"因為財主單位可能會有法律上"},{"start":11588.97,"end":11590.97,"text":"看到你是那麼多"},{"start":11590.97,"end":11592.97,"text":"你要變少的時候"},{"start":11592.97,"end":11594.97,"text":"變成有一點談性不足"},{"start":11594.97,"end":11596.97,"text":"因此在目前我們寫的"},{"start":11596.97,"end":11598.97,"text":"在第15條2項講"},{"start":11598.97,"end":11600.97,"text":"儲物人員這相關的一些事項"},{"start":11600.97,"end":11602.97,"text":"就是不是"},{"start":11602.97,"end":11604.97,"text":"由地方政府"},{"start":11604.97,"end":11606.97,"text":"他有他自治的需要"},{"start":11606.97,"end":11608.97,"text":"來尊重他們是這樣"},{"start":11608.97,"end":11610.97,"text":"所以寫人數會有未來"},{"start":11610.97,"end":11612.97,"text":"因應不及變化的問題"},{"start":11612.97,"end":11614.97,"text":"地方政府現在也有很多的"},{"start":11614.97,"end":11616.97,"text":"談性在處理"},{"start":11616.97,"end":11618.97,"text":"地方上的需求是不是"},{"start":11618.97,"end":11620.97,"text":"容我們來跟地方一起努力"},{"start":11620.97,"end":11622.97,"text":"包含新時代的一個聯合行政"},{"start":11622.97,"end":11624.97,"text":"讓還有AI進來"},{"start":11624.97,"end":11626.97,"text":"讓源頭減量"},{"start":11626.97,"end":11628.97,"text":"這些都是一個新的方法"},{"start":11628.97,"end":11630.97,"text":"也一併請委員參考說"},{"start":11630.97,"end":11632.97,"text":"以目前的條文讓我們來跟地方一起努力"},{"start":11632.97,"end":11634.97,"text":"剛剛柯委員有說"},{"start":11634.97,"end":11636.97,"text":"先保留一下"},{"start":11636.97,"end":11638.97,"text":"因為有一些可能在細節討論"},{"start":11638.97,"end":11640.97,"text":"還有地方政府或是學校我們要多尊重"},{"start":11640.97,"end":11642.97,"text":"是會給我們一點機會"},{"start":11642.97,"end":11644.97,"text":"在跟縣市有一點討論"},{"start":11645.42,"end":11647.42,"text":"好 那我想我在"},{"start":11647.42,"end":11649.42,"text":"上個會期我也多次開記者會"},{"start":11649.42,"end":11651.42,"text":"有關於學校午餐"},{"start":11651.42,"end":11653.42,"text":"秘書相關的行政能力"},{"start":11653.42,"end":11655.42,"text":"教師兼任"},{"start":11655.42,"end":11657.42,"text":"然後還有可以減受課結束"},{"start":11657.42,"end":11659.42,"text":"能力的一個支持跟經費的支持"},{"start":11659.42,"end":11661.42,"text":"我想 我記得葉原子委員"},{"start":11661.42,"end":11663.42,"text":"也非常的支持"},{"start":11663.42,"end":11665.42,"text":"所以我們對這個部分是非常的重視"},{"start":11665.42,"end":11667.42,"text":"那也感謝蔡村手委員"},{"start":11667.42,"end":11669.42,"text":"對於這個除工"},{"start":11669.42,"end":11671.42,"text":"相關的人力的部分"},{"start":11671.42,"end":11673.42,"text":"他們該有的一些保障"},{"start":11673.42,"end":11675.42,"text":"跟權益也一起來討論"},{"start":11675.42,"end":11677.42,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得"},{"start":11677.42,"end":11679.42,"text":"都有其必要性"},{"start":11679.42,"end":11681.42,"text":"但是我們為求能夠更加完善"},{"start":11681.42,"end":11683.42,"text":"那是不是我們就先保留"},{"start":11684.52,"end":11686.52,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":11686.78,"end":11688.78,"text":"好 下一個"},{"start":11709.98,"end":11711.98,"text":"好 我們一樣是以教育部的"},{"start":11711.98,"end":11713.98,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":11713.98,"end":11715.98,"text":"來做一個參考"},{"start":11715.98,"end":11717.98,"text":"那其實我自己的修正動議的"},{"start":11717.98,"end":11719.98,"text":"版本跟教育部沒有"},{"start":11719.98,"end":11721.98,"text":"相差太遠"},{"start":11721.98,"end":11723.98,"text":"但是我們最主要是"},{"start":11723.98,"end":11725.98,"text":"有在第一項的部分"},{"start":11725.98,"end":11727.98,"text":"有加學校工餐"},{"start":11727.98,"end":11729.98,"text":"還有健康因素 宗教或健康因素"},{"start":11729.98,"end":11731.98,"text":"之飲食需求"},{"start":11731.98,"end":11733.98,"text":"那第二項我是學校工餐"},{"start":11733.98,"end":11735.98,"text":"應醫組中央主管機關"},{"start":11735.98,"end":11737.98,"text":"按參別所訂之食物內容"},{"start":11737.98,"end":11739.98,"text":"那請國教組待會回應"},{"start":11739.98,"end":11741.98,"text":"那最後一段我有在增加"},{"start":11741.98,"end":11743.98,"text":"學校工餐不得使用含基因改造"},{"start":11743.98,"end":11745.98,"text":"生鮮食材及初級加工品"},{"start":11749.67,"end":11751.67,"text":"那學校工餐不得使用"},{"start":11751.67,"end":11753.67,"text":"法律禁止使用或經主管機關"},{"start":11753.67,"end":11756.67,"text":"目的 事業主管機關依法公告命令"},{"start":11756.67,"end":11759.67,"text":"或通知不得用於學校工餐"},{"start":11759.67,"end":11761.67,"text":"應停止使用 暫停供應"},{"start":11761.67,"end":11763.67,"text":"限期回收"},{"start":11763.67,"end":11767.67,"text":"採行其他必要管制的食品"},{"start":11767.67,"end":11769.67,"text":"食材 原料或其製品"},{"start":11769.67,"end":11771.67,"text":"這部分也是"},{"start":11771.67,"end":11773.67,"text":"因應到 不管是我們對於"},{"start":11773.67,"end":11775.67,"text":"這個"},{"start":11775.67,"end":11777.67,"text":"基改食品"},{"start":11777.67,"end":11779.67,"text":"或是相關的 有疑慮的食材"},{"start":11779.67,"end":11781.67,"text":"甚至是最近"},{"start":11781.67,"end":11783.67,"text":"食用油的部分"},{"start":11783.67,"end":11785.67,"text":"都是希望能夠更明確的寫在法規"},{"start":11785.67,"end":11787.67,"text":"能夠來"},{"start":11787.67,"end":11789.67,"text":"讓我們的孩子"},{"start":11789.67,"end":11791.67,"text":"在營養午餐"},{"start":11791.67,"end":11793.67,"text":"保障最基本的要求"},{"start":11793.67,"end":11795.67,"text":"就是飲食的安全"},{"start":11795.67,"end":11797.67,"text":"這個部分也把它一併列入"},{"start":11797.67,"end":11799.67,"text":"也希望國教組能夠回應"},{"start":11799.67,"end":11801.67,"text":"我想這個 我們都很關心"},{"start":11801.67,"end":11803.67,"text":"食用油 致癌油"},{"start":11803.67,"end":11805.67,"text":"流入校園的一個問題"},{"start":11805.67,"end":11807.67,"text":"所以我們會把一些法令寫進去"},{"start":11807.67,"end":11809.67,"text":"以上 再來就是我們陳秀寶委員"},{"start":11813.1,"end":11815.1,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":11815.1,"end":11817.1,"text":"我想對於"},{"start":11817.1,"end":11819.1,"text":"我們的學生"},{"start":11819.1,"end":11821.1,"text":"在學校使用的餐飲"},{"start":11821.1,"end":11823.1,"text":"的這個衛生 營養以及健康"},{"start":11823.1,"end":11825.1,"text":"是大家都"},{"start":11825.1,"end":11827.1,"text":"非常非常關心的"},{"start":11827.1,"end":11829.1,"text":"但是以現在的狀況"},{"start":11829.1,"end":11831.1,"text":"是說 我們是透過契約內容"},{"start":11831.1,"end":11833.1,"text":"的方式 要求學校飲食"},{"start":11833.1,"end":11835.1,"text":"更新食材及廠商"},{"start":11835.1,"end":11837.1,"text":"使用國產肉品 國產的"},{"start":11837.1,"end":11839.1,"text":"生鮮蔬菜"},{"start":11839.1,"end":11841.1,"text":"這四年來其實百分之百我們的"},{"start":11841.1,"end":11843.1,"text":"孩子們都是使用到我們的國產豬肉"},{"start":11843.1,"end":11845.1,"text":"那透過契約的方式"},{"start":11845.1,"end":11847.1,"text":"是可以保障學校"},{"start":11847.1,"end":11849.1,"text":"校園飲食的安全"},{"start":11849.1,"end":11851.1,"text":"那如果說我們發生了一個狀況"},{"start":11851.1,"end":11853.1,"text":"我們就把它入法"},{"start":11853.1,"end":11855.1,"text":"包括禁用的藥品"},{"start":11855.1,"end":11857.1,"text":"或是說現在的油的事件"},{"start":11857.1,"end":11859.1,"text":"你變成是不是每一次"},{"start":11859.1,"end":11861.1,"text":"有狀況發生之後 就要去"},{"start":11861.1,"end":11863.1,"text":"修改一次 那如果說"},{"start":11863.1,"end":11865.1,"text":"我們透過其他的方式"},{"start":11865.1,"end":11867.1,"text":"不管是在契約的"},{"start":11867.1,"end":11869.1,"text":"這個規範呢 或是說"},{"start":11869.57,"end":11871.57,"text":"在我們一些相關執行的辦法裡面"},{"start":11871.57,"end":11873.57,"text":"我們可以很即時"},{"start":11873.57,"end":11875.57,"text":"很迅速的去回應"},{"start":11875.57,"end":11877.57,"text":"現況 然後"},{"start":11877.57,"end":11879.57,"text":"馬上做修正 我想對"},{"start":11879.57,"end":11881.57,"text":"我們學童的 我們"},{"start":11881.57,"end":11883.57,"text":"學生的飲食的健康"},{"start":11883.57,"end":11885.57,"text":"的保障的效率"},{"start":11885.57,"end":11887.57,"text":"會比較好 比較高"},{"start":11887.57,"end":11889.57,"text":"那根據學生衛生法第23條"},{"start":11889.57,"end":11891.57,"text":"我們的裡面"},{"start":11891.57,"end":11893.57,"text":"有規定說 學校供應"},{"start":11893.57,"end":11895.57,"text":"膳食其實才應優先採用"},{"start":11895.57,"end":11897.57,"text":"中央農業主管機關"},{"start":11897.57,"end":11899.57,"text":"認證之在地優良農業產品"},{"start":11899.57,"end":11901.57,"text":"並且只使用含基因改造"},{"start":11901.57,"end":11903.57,"text":"生鮮食材及其初期"},{"start":11903.57,"end":11905.57,"text":"加工品"},{"start":11905.57,"end":11907.57,"text":"就是說 其實我們在相關的"},{"start":11907.57,"end":11909.57,"text":"規範裡面 相關的辦法裡面"},{"start":11909.57,"end":11911.57,"text":"以及契約裡面 都可以"},{"start":11911.57,"end":11913.57,"text":"有很即時 而且"},{"start":11913.57,"end":11915.57,"text":"很彈性的這些相關"},{"start":11915.57,"end":11917.57,"text":"的規範呢 去規範這些"},{"start":11917.57,"end":11919.57,"text":"供應商 這些"},{"start":11919.57,"end":11921.57,"text":"食材的供應呢"},{"start":11921.57,"end":11923.57,"text":"都要用最安全的"},{"start":11923.57,"end":11925.57,"text":"最健康的食材來提供給我們的"},{"start":11925.57,"end":11927.57,"text":"孩子 那本席"},{"start":11927.57,"end":11929.57,"text":"這條條文裡面"},{"start":11929.57,"end":11931.57,"text":"我一樣是有甄定"},{"start":11931.57,"end":11933.57,"text":"學校飲食 鼓勵使用在地"},{"start":11933.57,"end":11935.57,"text":"食材及推廣地方飲食的部分"},{"start":11935.57,"end":11937.57,"text":"那當然大家可以討論"},{"start":11937.57,"end":11939.57,"text":"一下 那本席"},{"start":11939.57,"end":11941.57,"text":"還是覺得說 現況學校飲食"},{"start":11941.57,"end":11943.57,"text":"已經透過契約的方式來指定"},{"start":11943.57,"end":11945.57,"text":"使用國產肉品 國產的"},{"start":11945.57,"end":11947.57,"text":"農產品 就"},{"start":11947.57,"end":11949.57,"text":"不需要再特地的"},{"start":11949.57,"end":11951.57,"text":"新增相關的規定"},{"start":11951.57,"end":11953.57,"text":"也避免會有掛業熱腕"},{"start":11953.57,"end":11955.57,"text":"那教育部呢 針對沒有使用"},{"start":11955.57,"end":11957.57,"text":"國產熱品定有相關的"},{"start":11957.57,"end":11959.57,"text":"罰則 沒有"},{"start":11959.57,"end":11961.57,"text":"就只有我們在契約裡面 我們透過"},{"start":11961.57,"end":11963.57,"text":"契約的內容 我們去完整的"},{"start":11963.57,"end":11965.57,"text":"即時的去更新"},{"start":11965.57,"end":11967.57,"text":"規範廠商 規範"},{"start":11967.57,"end":11969.57,"text":"公餐食材廠商的相關的"},{"start":11969.57,"end":11971.57,"text":"應該遵守的事項"},{"start":11971.57,"end":11973.57,"text":"我想這樣子來保障學校"},{"start":11973.57,"end":11975.57,"text":"的飲食安全是最"},{"start":11975.57,"end":11977.57,"text":"即時最彈性的 以上"},{"start":11984.08,"end":11986.08,"text":"好 來 我們武林法委員"},{"start":11988.45,"end":11990.45,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11990.45,"end":11992.45,"text":"針對這個第16條呢"},{"start":11992.45,"end":11994.45,"text":"我個人的版本對應的是"},{"start":11994.45,"end":11996.45,"text":"第9條跟第10條"},{"start":11996.45,"end":11998.45,"text":"那這個部分呢"},{"start":11998.45,"end":12000.45,"text":"特別就是 要去"},{"start":12000.45,"end":12002.45,"text":"回應的就是"},{"start":12002.45,"end":12004.45,"text":"要求營養基準"},{"start":12004.45,"end":12006.45,"text":"每三年做通盤檢討"},{"start":12006.45,"end":12008.45,"text":"然後明定主管機關"},{"start":12008.45,"end":12010.45,"text":"得會同農業主管機關"},{"start":12010.45,"end":12012.45,"text":"鼓勵採用在地食材"},{"start":12012.45,"end":12014.45,"text":"發展地方飲食"},{"start":12014.45,"end":12016.45,"text":"特色 以及訂定"},{"start":12016.45,"end":12018.45,"text":"補助規範"},{"start":12018.45,"end":12020.45,"text":"希望能夠回應"},{"start":12020.45,"end":12022.45,"text":"像原住民族的傳統作物"},{"start":12022.45,"end":12026.45,"text":"地產地銷 跟文化飲食的一個需求"},{"start":12026.45,"end":12028.45,"text":"那這一條呢 其實"},{"start":12028.45,"end":12030.45,"text":"國產可溯源是基本要求"},{"start":12030.45,"end":12032.45,"text":"那我是希望可以再往前走"},{"start":12032.45,"end":12034.45,"text":"走到在地跟文化"},{"start":12034.45,"end":12036.45,"text":"那特別是"},{"start":12036.45,"end":12038.45,"text":"推動多年來"},{"start":12038.45,"end":12040.45,"text":"其實在原住民族地區"},{"start":12040.45,"end":12042.45,"text":"可以看到的一個狀況"},{"start":12042.45,"end":12044.45,"text":"就是傳統作物"},{"start":12044.45,"end":12046.45,"text":"傳統作物是離孩子"},{"start":12046.45,"end":12048.45,"text":"最近的地方"},{"start":12048.45,"end":12050.45,"text":"但是最難進入學校"},{"start":12050.45,"end":12052.45,"text":"那像小米 樹豆 芋頭"},{"start":12052.45,"end":12054.45,"text":"很多的校園都已經"},{"start":12054.45,"end":12056.45,"text":"種在校園裡面"},{"start":12056.45,"end":12058.45,"text":"那是地方的產業"},{"start":12058.45,"end":12060.45,"text":"也是民族的味覺"},{"start":12060.45,"end":12062.45,"text":"但是我們希望主管機關"},{"start":12062.45,"end":12064.45,"text":"能夠去突破"},{"start":12064.45,"end":12066.45,"text":"跟農業主管機關"},{"start":12066.45,"end":12068.45,"text":"看怎麼樣去鼓勵採用在地的食材"},{"start":12068.45,"end":12070.45,"text":"這個部分是"},{"start":12070.45,"end":12072.45,"text":"我覺得個人版本"},{"start":12072.45,"end":12074.45,"text":"非常重視的"},{"start":12074.45,"end":12076.45,"text":"另外就是"},{"start":12076.45,"end":12078.45,"text":"仍舊有很多的學校"},{"start":12078.45,"end":12080.45,"text":"沒有校聘的營養師"},{"start":12080.45,"end":12082.45,"text":"那我這邊是"},{"start":12082.45,"end":12084.45,"text":"還是希望請教育部能夠說明一下"},{"start":12084.45,"end":12086.45,"text":"到底是由合聘營養師"},{"start":12086.45,"end":12088.45,"text":"主管機關營養師"},{"start":12088.45,"end":12090.45,"text":"還是廠商的營養師"},{"start":12090.45,"end":12092.45,"text":"來負責這個督導"},{"start":12092.45,"end":12094.45,"text":"及執行"},{"start":12094.45,"end":12096.45,"text":"這個第二項的要求"},{"start":12096.45,"end":12098.45,"text":"那這個部分我是希望不要留下責任的"},{"start":12098.45,"end":12100.45,"text":"一個真空"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12102.45,"text":"那這個部分做這樣的一個說明"},{"start":12102.45,"end":12104.45,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12105.84,"end":12107.84,"text":"好 郭一級衛員"},{"start":12107.79,"end":12111.79,"text":"好 這第16條對應到我的第15條"},{"start":12111.79,"end":12113.79,"text":"那原則上其實"},{"start":12113.79,"end":12115.79,"text":"看這個教育部的"},{"start":12115.79,"end":12117.79,"text":"版本其實因為我們是"},{"start":12117.79,"end":12119.79,"text":"比較尚未法 其實沒有把"},{"start":12119.79,"end":12121.79,"text":"很多比較細節的部分"},{"start":12121.79,"end":12123.79,"text":"寫在上面 但是"},{"start":12123.79,"end":12125.79,"text":"其中我的版本"},{"start":12125.79,"end":12127.79,"text":"有特別寫到應優先"},{"start":12127.79,"end":12129.79,"text":"採用在地可溯源"},{"start":12129.79,"end":12131.79,"text":"之農產品 那這個部分"},{"start":12131.79,"end":12133.79,"text":"我看到布板是寫國產在地"},{"start":12133.79,"end":12135.79,"text":"那這個部分我們是不是可以"},{"start":12135.79,"end":12137.79,"text":"把它改成所謂的這個"},{"start":12137.79,"end":12139.79,"text":"應該是說"},{"start":12139.79,"end":12141.79,"text":"在地可溯源"},{"start":12141.79,"end":12143.79,"text":"把國產改成在地這樣子"},{"start":12143.79,"end":12145.79,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":12147.62,"end":12149.62,"text":"好 那剛剛有委員"},{"start":12152.36,"end":12154.36,"text":"很專業的提出這個學校衛生法"},{"start":12154.36,"end":12156.36,"text":"其實有部分"},{"start":12156.36,"end":12158.36,"text":"已經納入了啦"},{"start":12158.36,"end":12160.36,"text":"那也跟委員特別報告"},{"start":12160.36,"end":12162.36,"text":"那我們可以繼續往下"},{"start":12162.36,"end":12164.36,"text":"稍微看一下第23條"},{"start":12164.36,"end":12166.36,"text":"那在教育部的第23條"},{"start":12166.36,"end":12168.36,"text":"學校衛生法第22條、23條"},{"start":12168.36,"end":12170.36,"text":"第1項、第2項、第23條"},{"start":12170.36,"end":12172.36,"text":"之2、第23條之3"},{"start":12172.36,"end":12174.36,"text":"第27條規定"},{"start":12174.36,"end":12178.36,"text":"於學校供應學生午餐部分"},{"start":12178.36,"end":12180.36,"text":"自本條文施行起"},{"start":12181.72,"end":12183.72,"text":"第23條之1"},{"start":12183.72,"end":12187.72,"text":"自本條例14條施行起均不再適用"},{"start":12187.72,"end":12189.72,"text":"所以它就是說"},{"start":12189.72,"end":12191.72,"text":"有特別明定為什麼要設定"},{"start":12191.72,"end":12193.72,"text":"在這個營養午餐的法案裡面"},{"start":12193.72,"end":12195.72,"text":"就是因為我們有特別就是說"},{"start":12195.72,"end":12197.72,"text":"開始要來"},{"start":12197.72,"end":12199.72,"text":"用營養午餐相關的法令"},{"start":12199.72,"end":12201.72,"text":"來進行"},{"start":12201.72,"end":12203.72,"text":"那學校衛生法這部分就停止"},{"start":12203.72,"end":12205.72,"text":"所以才會我的"},{"start":12206.87,"end":12208.87,"text":"立即點是在這邊"},{"start":12208.87,"end":12210.87,"text":"也跟委員特別報告"},{"start":12210.87,"end":12212.87,"text":"那再來教育部請回應"},{"start":12214.09,"end":12218.09,"text":"剛剛委員有幾個說法"},{"start":12218.09,"end":12220.09,"text":"那我可能快的跟大家做個報告"},{"start":12220.09,"end":12222.09,"text":"第一點是原民"},{"start":12222.09,"end":12224.09,"text":"剛剛委員講了原民作物這一個"},{"start":12224.09,"end":12226.09,"text":"那我們剛剛在第10條有報告"},{"start":12226.09,"end":12228.09,"text":"有一個在地食材"},{"start":12228.09,"end":12232.09,"text":"那現在因為在地跟那個可塑園"},{"start":12232.09,"end":12234.09,"text":"有時候在很偏鄉的地區"},{"start":12234.09,"end":12236.09,"text":"怕那個比較偏鄉地區"},{"start":12236.09,"end":12240.09,"text":"要怎麼樣可以做到可塑園或是章"},{"start":12240.09,"end":12242.09,"text":"那會有一些跟農業主管機關"},{"start":12242.09,"end":12244.09,"text":"農業主管機關有一些彈性的"},{"start":12244.09,"end":12246.09,"text":"協助的措施"},{"start":12246.09,"end":12248.09,"text":"所以目前我們在第10條"},{"start":12248.09,"end":12250.09,"text":"或第16條"},{"start":12250.09,"end":12252.09,"text":"就試圖去整合這樣的一個機制"},{"start":12252.09,"end":12254.09,"text":"讓有一些可以做"},{"start":12254.09,"end":12256.09,"text":"在地採購的"},{"start":12256.09,"end":12260.09,"text":"跟要去處理可塑園食材"},{"start":12260.09,"end":12262.09,"text":"這兩個可以得到兼顧"},{"start":12262.09,"end":12264.09,"text":"第二個是"},{"start":12266.23,"end":12268.23,"text":"有一個"},{"start":12267.73,"end":12269.73,"text":"在立法技術上"},{"start":12269.73,"end":12271.73,"text":"如果現在我們有一些"},{"start":12273.49,"end":12275.49,"text":"要新訂在這裡"},{"start":12275.49,"end":12277.49,"text":"可能會有原來"},{"start":12277.49,"end":12279.49,"text":"已經立法的"},{"start":12279.49,"end":12283.49,"text":"它其實是沒有在整個國際上"},{"start":12283.49,"end":12285.49,"text":"引起有一些什麼紛擾"},{"start":12285.49,"end":12287.49,"text":"那現在如果在本次立法"},{"start":12287.49,"end":12289.49,"text":"又要再做一次處理"},{"start":12289.49,"end":12291.49,"text":"可能在相關的"},{"start":12291.49,"end":12293.49,"text":"有關的國際的整體運作上"},{"start":12293.49,"end":12295.49,"text":"是不是會衝擊過大"},{"start":12295.49,"end":12297.49,"text":"可是我們原來就有條文"},{"start":12297.49,"end":12299.49,"text":"像學校衛生法"},{"start":12299.54,"end":12301.54,"text":"然後我們也有契約"},{"start":12301.54,"end":12303.54,"text":"可以做比較嚴明的規範"},{"start":12303.54,"end":12305.54,"text":"是不是有一些條文"},{"start":12305.54,"end":12307.54,"text":"我們是可以跟學校衛生法"},{"start":12307.54,"end":12309.54,"text":"整合在一起運用即可"},{"start":12309.54,"end":12311.54,"text":"都是法"},{"start":12311.54,"end":12313.54,"text":"那我們不動的情況下"},{"start":12313.54,"end":12315.54,"text":"可以綜合處理"},{"start":12315.54,"end":12317.54,"text":"大家委員關心的事"},{"start":12317.54,"end":12319.54,"text":"再加上有契約"},{"start":12319.54,"end":12321.54,"text":"可以在臨時及時的應用上"},{"start":12321.54,"end":12323.54,"text":"也比較大的來做調整"},{"start":12323.54,"end":12325.54,"text":"跟契約可以寫到"},{"start":12325.54,"end":12327.54,"text":"比較完善"},{"start":12327.54,"end":12329.54,"text":"整體立法技術"},{"start":12329.54,"end":12331.54,"text":"在因應國際的發展上"},{"start":12331.54,"end":12333.54,"text":"我們用這兩法就有一些課題"},{"start":12333.54,"end":12335.54,"text":"是用這樣的方式來整合"},{"start":12335.54,"end":12337.54,"text":"去往前進"},{"start":12338.9,"end":12340.9,"text":"最後一點是"},{"start":12340.9,"end":12342.9,"text":"有關營養師這一部分"},{"start":12342.9,"end":12344.9,"text":"剛剛有提到"},{"start":12344.9,"end":12346.9,"text":"營養師有關的"},{"start":12346.9,"end":12348.9,"text":"不管是人數或是相關的進一步"},{"start":12348.9,"end":12350.9,"text":"相關議題的探討"},{"start":12350.9,"end":12352.9,"text":"因為剛剛有談到可以"},{"start":12352.9,"end":12354.9,"text":"保留在詳詳細細的"},{"start":12354.9,"end":12356.9,"text":"跟地方政府或是有關的"},{"start":12356.9,"end":12358.9,"text":"營養師的有關協會"},{"start":12358.9,"end":12360.9,"text":"好好地來就教起義"},{"start":12360.9,"end":12362.9,"text":"還有地方的學校"},{"start":12362.9,"end":12364.9,"text":"是不是吳委員所提的那一個"},{"start":12364.9,"end":12366.9,"text":"我們併同那邊一起做商量"},{"start":12366.9,"end":12368.9,"text":"以上三點補充完畢 謝謝"},{"start":12369.66,"end":12371.66,"text":"好"},{"start":12370.69,"end":12372.69,"text":"那 還沒 我也有一件"},{"start":12374.92,"end":12376.92,"text":"好 教育部的部分"},{"start":12376.92,"end":12378.92,"text":"也有一些建議啦 我想的"},{"start":12378.92,"end":12380.92,"text":"大家都希望能夠更加完善"},{"start":12381.74,"end":12383.74,"text":"那是不是我們就先保留"},{"start":12384.78,"end":12386.78,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12386.7,"end":12388.7,"text":"那 接著我要來宣告"},{"start":12388.7,"end":12390.7,"text":"補充宣告一下"},{"start":12390.7,"end":12392.7,"text":"委員葉元之等人提出第十四條條文"},{"start":12392.7,"end":12394.7,"text":"修正動議一併保留"},{"start":12394.7,"end":12396.7,"text":"那 再來"},{"start":12397.27,"end":12399.27,"text":"我們要處理第十七條"},{"start":12400.07,"end":12402.07,"text":"民眾黨"},{"start":12402.75,"end":12404.75,"text":"黨團提案第十四條"},{"start":12404.75,"end":12406.75,"text":"等三十八個提案以及委員"},{"start":12406.75,"end":12408.75,"text":"羅廷瑋 柯志恩等人所提修正動議"},{"start":12408.75,"end":12410.75,"text":"第十七條"},{"start":12410.75,"end":12412.75,"text":"請委員舉手發言"},{"start":12413.3,"end":12415.3,"text":"好 募集"},{"start":12415.3,"end":12417.3,"text":"村村委員"},{"start":12419.34,"end":12421.34,"text":"好 這裡針對第十七條"},{"start":12421.34,"end":12423.34,"text":"那在"},{"start":12423.34,"end":12425.34,"text":"回應"},{"start":12425.34,"end":12427.34,"text":"教育部的學校"},{"start":12427.34,"end":12429.34,"text":"辦理學校午餐採購"},{"start":12429.34,"end":12431.34,"text":"的契約"},{"start":12431.34,"end":12433.34,"text":"這個契約"},{"start":12433.34,"end":12435.34,"text":"是不是這個範本"},{"start":12435.34,"end":12437.34,"text":"應該要明定供應"},{"start":12437.34,"end":12439.34,"text":"供應廠商還有食材供應商"},{"start":12439.34,"end":12441.34,"text":"跟售托供應業者之"},{"start":12441.34,"end":12443.34,"text":"食品的安全通報"},{"start":12443.34,"end":12445.34,"text":"產品的責任保險"},{"start":12445.34,"end":12447.34,"text":"還有原料來源 產品"},{"start":12447.34,"end":12449.34,"text":"流向以及追溯"},{"start":12449.34,"end":12451.34,"text":"追蹤資料之提供"},{"start":12451.34,"end":12453.34,"text":"停止使用後供應"},{"start":12453.34,"end":12455.34,"text":"妥善留存後"},{"start":12455.34,"end":12457.34,"text":"隔離保管"},{"start":12457.34,"end":12459.34,"text":"配合依法"},{"start":12459.34,"end":12461.34,"text":"封存回收還有"},{"start":12461.34,"end":12463.34,"text":"替代供餐"},{"start":12463.34,"end":12465.34,"text":"損害賠償終止後"},{"start":12465.34,"end":12467.34,"text":"解除契約"},{"start":12467.34,"end":12469.34,"text":"理約保證及保證金"},{"start":12469.34,"end":12471.34,"text":"處理及違規退場"},{"start":12471.34,"end":12473.34,"text":"機制"},{"start":12473.34,"end":12475.34,"text":"在這裡做個說明"},{"start":12475.34,"end":12477.34,"text":"以上"},{"start":12481.3,"end":12483.3,"text":"好 那嗨木也有一間"},{"start":12485.02,"end":12487.02,"text":"好"},{"start":12487.85,"end":12489.85,"text":"啊"},{"start":12489.07,"end":12491.07,"text":"第17條的部分"},{"start":12491.07,"end":12493.07,"text":"對應到我的版本是第12條"},{"start":12493.07,"end":12495.07,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":12495.07,"end":12497.07,"text":"我是將公平採購"},{"start":12497.07,"end":12499.07,"text":"書面契約 契約規範"},{"start":12499.07,"end":12501.07,"text":"範本 專戶管理"},{"start":12501.07,"end":12503.07,"text":"跟收支公開"},{"start":12503.07,"end":12505.07,"text":"整合在這個一條裡面"},{"start":12505.07,"end":12507.07,"text":"那形成從採購"},{"start":12507.07,"end":12509.07,"text":"到財務公開的"},{"start":12509.07,"end":12511.07,"text":"完整治理鏈"},{"start":12511.07,"end":12513.07,"text":"然後明定不得有無正當"},{"start":12513.07,"end":12515.07,"text":"理由的差別對待"},{"start":12515.07,"end":12517.07,"text":"那教育部的版本"},{"start":12517.07,"end":12519.07,"text":"是另外就政府採購法"},{"start":12519.07,"end":12521.07,"text":"適用的範圍"},{"start":12521.07,"end":12523.07,"text":"寫得比較清楚"},{"start":12523.07,"end":12525.07,"text":"那學校午餐採購"},{"start":12525.07,"end":12527.07,"text":"它的專業度很高"},{"start":12527.07,"end":12529.07,"text":"那中央訂定契約範本"},{"start":12529.07,"end":12531.07,"text":"是可以保護學校"},{"start":12531.07,"end":12533.07,"text":"這個部分是本席非常支持"},{"start":12533.07,"end":12535.07,"text":"但是範本不能夠"},{"start":12535.07,"end":12537.07,"text":"只有採購法的刑事條款"},{"start":12537.07,"end":12539.07,"text":"希望可以把食安"},{"start":12539.07,"end":12541.07,"text":"營養師的工作權責"},{"start":12541.07,"end":12543.07,"text":"食材的替換"},{"start":12543.07,"end":12545.07,"text":"過敏原追溯抽驗"},{"start":12545.07,"end":12547.07,"text":"以及共餐違約責任"},{"start":12547.07,"end":12549.07,"text":"跟價格調整的機制"},{"start":12549.07,"end":12551.07,"text":"都能夠寫清楚"},{"start":12551.07,"end":12553.07,"text":"那另外針對我關心的原篇箱"},{"start":12553.07,"end":12555.07,"text":"我希望配合教育部"},{"start":12555.07,"end":12557.07,"text":"版本的第十條允許"},{"start":12557.07,"end":12559.07,"text":"這些學校聯合採購"},{"start":12559.07,"end":12561.07,"text":"還有跨行政區合作"},{"start":12561.07,"end":12563.07,"text":"那不能讓標準"},{"start":12563.07,"end":12565.07,"text":"範本反而增加了"},{"start":12565.07,"end":12567.07,"text":"小校的一個行政門檻"},{"start":12567.07,"end":12569.07,"text":"所以以上的說明"},{"start":12571.69,"end":12573.69,"text":"好 還有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":12576.14,"end":12578.14,"text":"然後請教育部說明"},{"start":12578.77,"end":12580.77,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":12580.77,"end":12582.77,"text":"各位委員剛剛所提的"},{"start":12582.77,"end":12584.77,"text":"在回應這一條的精神上"},{"start":12584.77,"end":12586.77,"text":"大概都是用"},{"start":12586.77,"end":12588.77,"text":"採購或是一些公正的精神"},{"start":12588.77,"end":12590.77,"text":"公平的這個原理"},{"start":12590.77,"end":12592.77,"text":"來讓學校得到"},{"start":12592.77,"end":12594.77,"text":"保護"},{"start":12594.77,"end":12596.77,"text":"那這裡剛剛委員有提到"},{"start":12596.77,"end":12598.77,"text":"像委員剛剛有提到說"},{"start":12598.77,"end":12600.77,"text":"要在正常的情況下"},{"start":12600.77,"end":12602.77,"text":"不能夠行差別對待的情形"},{"start":12602.77,"end":12604.77,"text":"或是"},{"start":12604.77,"end":12606.77,"text":"7月內就食安"},{"start":12606.77,"end":12608.77,"text":"或是養生"},{"start":12608.77,"end":12610.77,"text":"或是養殖"},{"start":12610.77,"end":12612.77,"text":"這個因為是在7月裡面"},{"start":12612.77,"end":12614.77,"text":"我們可以處理"},{"start":12614.77,"end":12616.77,"text":"是不是那一部分"},{"start":12616.77,"end":12618.77,"text":"是在7月來處理"},{"start":12618.77,"end":12620.77,"text":"至於差別對待這一類"},{"start":12620.77,"end":12622.77,"text":"因為在採購法是非常的嚴正的"},{"start":12622.77,"end":12624.77,"text":"基本上"},{"start":12624.77,"end":12626.77,"text":"只要按照採購法"},{"start":12626.77,"end":12628.77,"text":"大概他得到的保障"},{"start":12628.77,"end":12630.77,"text":"會比起我們額外寫的"},{"start":12630.77,"end":12632.77,"text":"會來得周延"},{"start":12632.77,"end":12634.77,"text":"所以我們這邊不太敢"},{"start":12634.77,"end":12636.77,"text":"採購法之外外加"},{"start":12636.77,"end":12638.77,"text":"所以採購法精神"},{"start":12638.77,"end":12640.77,"text":"一定要確實遵守"},{"start":12640.77,"end":12642.77,"text":"這個放出全國接准"},{"start":12642.77,"end":12644.77,"text":"也很多的"},{"start":12644.77,"end":12646.77,"text":"不管廠商或是學校工作時的准據"},{"start":12646.77,"end":12648.77,"text":"大家有一個一致的認定"},{"start":12648.77,"end":12650.77,"text":"那我們在相關的專法之外"},{"start":12650.77,"end":12652.77,"text":"如果在有一些"},{"start":12653.55,"end":12655.55,"text":"額外的關心"},{"start":12655.55,"end":12657.55,"text":"那種關心可能要在"},{"start":12658.05,"end":12660.05,"text":"機關間要做一個確認"},{"start":12660.05,"end":12662.05,"text":"免得我們這邊的"},{"start":12662.05,"end":12664.05,"text":"要求或關心會被在採購法"},{"start":12664.05,"end":12666.05,"text":"相關的條文中的適用"},{"start":12666.05,"end":12668.05,"text":"要有做一個完整的解釋"},{"start":12668.05,"end":12670.05,"text":"所以我個人建議"},{"start":12670.05,"end":12672.05,"text":"是不是還是我們國家的標準"},{"start":12672.05,"end":12674.05,"text":"就按照採購法"},{"start":12674.05,"end":12676.05,"text":"會比較嚴明"},{"start":12676.05,"end":12678.05,"text":"那至於在下一層次"},{"start":12679.43,"end":12681.43,"text":"契約的部分"},{"start":12681.43,"end":12683.43,"text":"按照本法學校衛生法"},{"start":12683.43,"end":12685.43,"text":"相關授權執法行政措施"},{"start":12685.43,"end":12687.43,"text":"地方自治條例等等"},{"start":12687.43,"end":12689.43,"text":"他的整個周延性跟可操作性"},{"start":12689.43,"end":12691.43,"text":"會受到法律"},{"start":12691.43,"end":12693.43,"text":"跟授權執法的"},{"start":12693.43,"end":12695.43,"text":"保障"},{"start":12695.43,"end":12697.43,"text":"至於他的內涵"},{"start":12697.43,"end":12699.43,"text":"要嚴正在食安上"},{"start":12699.43,"end":12701.43,"text":"過敏原處理等等"},{"start":12701.43,"end":12703.43,"text":"也比較能夠得到保障的處置"},{"start":12703.43,"end":12705.43,"text":"但是委員所提"},{"start":12705.43,"end":12707.43,"text":"我們會跟地方政府"},{"start":12707.43,"end":12709.43,"text":"去努力契約的面向上"},{"start":12709.43,"end":12711.43,"text":"去檢視食安的包含"},{"start":12711.43,"end":12713.43,"text":"採法過敏原的"},{"start":12713.43,"end":12715.43,"text":"或是特殊情形的"},{"start":12716.24,"end":12718.24,"text":"學生飲食"},{"start":12718.24,"end":12720.24,"text":"有沒有關照到"},{"start":12720.24,"end":12722.24,"text":"這個我們在這一波"},{"start":12722.24,"end":12724.24,"text":"會做那個層次的處理"},{"start":12724.24,"end":12726.24,"text":"母法上是不是按照"},{"start":12726.24,"end":12728.24,"text":"我們聽了很多委員的建議之後"},{"start":12728.24,"end":12730.24,"text":"目前我們這個版本也是歸納自委員的"},{"start":12730.24,"end":12732.24,"text":"是不是照這個委員"},{"start":12732.24,"end":12734.24,"text":"是最大的共識 以上補充 謝謝"},{"start":12737.11,"end":12739.11,"text":"好 還有委員有建議嗎"},{"start":12742.73,"end":12744.73,"text":"第十七條的部分"},{"start":12748,"end":12750,"text":"嗯"},{"start":12751.69,"end":12753.69,"text":"陳總委員 那您覺得呢"},{"start":12759.1,"end":12761.1,"text":"麻煩你拿麥克風 謝謝"},{"start":12763.86,"end":12765.86,"text":"我們國家署署長"},{"start":12765.86,"end":12767.86,"text":"有說明啦"},{"start":12767.86,"end":12769.86,"text":"接著說按照教育部的"},{"start":12769.86,"end":12771.86,"text":"運行委員呢"},{"start":12774.15,"end":12776.15,"text":"我剛剛看到就是"},{"start":12776.15,"end":12778.15,"text":"有部分的委員還有我的版本"},{"start":12778.15,"end":12780.15,"text":"因為這個部分"},{"start":12780.15,"end":12782.15,"text":"我是對應到我自己的十四條"},{"start":12782.15,"end":12784.15,"text":"那就是依照這個"},{"start":12784.15,"end":12786.15,"text":"會計法跟相關的規定"},{"start":12786.15,"end":12788.15,"text":"辦理他的收支明細是不是"},{"start":12788.15,"end":12790.15,"text":"應該要每學期結束後兩個月之內"},{"start":12790.15,"end":12792.15,"text":"公告 這個部分"},{"start":12792.15,"end":12794.15,"text":"我看有部分的其他的委員好像也"},{"start":12794.15,"end":12796.15,"text":"特別提到 那這個部分"},{"start":12796.43,"end":12798.43,"text":"教育部有什麼樣的一個回應"},{"start":12798.43,"end":12800.43,"text":"還是說這個"},{"start":12800.65,"end":12802.65,"text":"要放在"},{"start":12802.65,"end":12804.65,"text":"這個條文其實我們現行就要再處理"},{"start":12804.65,"end":12806.65,"text":"也是放在了二十一條"},{"start":12806.65,"end":12808.65,"text":"是不是有關的項目的部分"},{"start":12808.65,"end":12810.65,"text":"在那邊統整"},{"start":12810.65,"end":12812.65,"text":"這邊講採購的部分"},{"start":12812.65,"end":12814.65,"text":"好 沒問題"},{"start":12814.5,"end":12816.5,"text":"好 那我們就照教育部的建議文字"},{"start":12819.48,"end":12821.48,"text":"好 那"},{"start":12821.48,"end":12825.48,"text":"第十條 學校應以公開公平之程序辦理學校午餐採購"},{"start":12825.48,"end":12827.48,"text":"不得要求廠商提供"},{"start":12827.48,"end":12829.48,"text":"資訊學校活動或措施所需資金費"},{"start":12831.97,"end":12833.97,"text":"或設備等其他回饋"},{"start":12833.97,"end":12835.97,"text":"學校辦理學校午餐採購之契約"},{"start":12835.97,"end":12837.97,"text":"應以中"},{"start":12837.97,"end":12839.97,"text":"應以採用中央主管機關"},{"start":12839.97,"end":12841.97,"text":"訂制"},{"start":12841.97,"end":12843.97,"text":"範本委員者報請主管機關備查"},{"start":12843.97,"end":12845.97,"text":"請向範本由中央主管機關"},{"start":12845.97,"end":12847.97,"text":"訂制"},{"start":12847.97,"end":12849.97,"text":"公立學校應依政府採購法"},{"start":12849.97,"end":12851.97,"text":"辦理學校午餐採購"},{"start":12851.97,"end":12853.97,"text":"實力學校應"},{"start":12853.97,"end":12855.97,"text":"實力學校符合該法第四條"},{"start":12855.97,"end":12857.97,"text":"第一項規定者"},{"start":12857.97,"end":12859.97,"text":"一同"},{"start":12860.42,"end":12862.42,"text":"好 那我們就"},{"start":12862.42,"end":12864.42,"text":"修正通過照教育部的建議文字"},{"start":12864.42,"end":12866.42,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12867.15,"end":12869.15,"text":"第十八條 台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":12869.15,"end":12871.15,"text":"第十六條"},{"start":12871.15,"end":12873.15,"text":"等三十七個提案"},{"start":12873.15,"end":12875.15,"text":"以及委員羅廷瑋柯志恩等人所提修正提案"},{"start":12877.11,"end":12879.11,"text":"我們看第十"},{"start":12879.52,"end":12881.52,"text":"八條"},{"start":12881.39,"end":12883.39,"text":"好了"},{"start":12882.51,"end":12884.51,"text":"我先講第十八條"},{"start":12884.51,"end":12886.51,"text":"我們基本上只是多增加"},{"start":12886.51,"end":12888.51,"text":"應辦理學校公餐相關人員"},{"start":12888.51,"end":12890.51,"text":"的一個衛生訓練"},{"start":12890.51,"end":12892.51,"text":"那當然我們在"},{"start":12892.4,"end":12894.4,"text":"第二段"},{"start":12894.4,"end":12896.4,"text":"有這個"},{"start":12896.4,"end":12900.4,"text":"地方主管機關稽查學校公餐辦理的情形喔"},{"start":12900.4,"end":12902.4,"text":"那這個部分 那最後一段我們有在增加"},{"start":12904.51,"end":12908.51,"text":"主管機關或學校之西學校公餐之所使用的食品"},{"start":12908.51,"end":12910.51,"text":"食材原料或其供應鏈發生重大的"},{"start":12910.51,"end":12912.51,"text":"突發性的食品衛生安全事件"},{"start":12912.51,"end":12916.51,"text":"或有危害學生健康公餐安全疑慮時"},{"start":12916.51,"end":12918.51,"text":"應立即相互通報"},{"start":12918.51,"end":12920.51,"text":"並通報學校所在地的衛生主管機關"},{"start":12920.51,"end":12922.51,"text":"涉及外部公餐作業者"},{"start":12925.42,"end":12929.42,"text":"並應通知該場所所在的衛生主管機關必要時"},{"start":12929.42,"end":12933.42,"text":"並應通知相關目的事業主管機關喔"},{"start":12933.42,"end":12935.42,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":12935.75,"end":12937.75,"text":"及學校應"},{"start":12937.96,"end":12939.96,"text":"其權責辦理清查"},{"start":12939.96,"end":12941.96,"text":"追溯及資料比對"},{"start":12941.96,"end":12945.96,"text":"並視情形採取停止使用或供應"},{"start":12945.96,"end":12947.96,"text":"妥善留存隔離保管"},{"start":12948.81,"end":12951.81,"text":"替代公餐及其他必要措施"},{"start":12951.81,"end":12957.81,"text":"有關供應廠商、食材供應商或受託公餐業者"},{"start":12957.81,"end":12961.81,"text":"應以相關法令契約停止供應及辦理回收"},{"start":12961.81,"end":12965.81,"text":"依法應與封存者由衛生主管機關辦理"},{"start":12965.81,"end":12967.81,"text":"這個部分也跟所有的委員特別報告"},{"start":12968.91,"end":12970.91,"text":"我想我們希望說"},{"start":12970.91,"end":12972.91,"text":"就像這一次的食用油問題"},{"start":12972.91,"end":12974.91,"text":"相關的主管機關有責任義務"},{"start":12974.91,"end":12977.91,"text":"要趕緊跨部會來做通報"},{"start":12977.91,"end":12979.91,"text":"第一線來通知"},{"start":12979.91,"end":12980.91,"text":"那也把它入法"},{"start":12980.91,"end":12982.91,"text":"來讓我們所有的孩子"},{"start":12982.91,"end":12984.91,"text":"這個所在的一個學校"},{"start":12984.91,"end":12986.91,"text":"能夠在第一時間馬上知道"},{"start":12986.91,"end":12988.91,"text":"第一時間馬上下架"},{"start":12988.91,"end":12990.91,"text":"第一時間馬上留存相關的證據"},{"start":12990.91,"end":12992.91,"text":"這個部分所以我把它立法在這邊"},{"start":12992.91,"end":12994.91,"text":"那也是因應這一次的食用油"},{"start":12994.91,"end":12996.91,"text":"自燃油的一個問題"},{"start":12996.91,"end":12998.91,"text":"也跟大家特別懇求"},{"start":12998.91,"end":13000.91,"text":"這個部分應該要列入到法案裡面"},{"start":13000.91,"end":13002.91,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13002.54,"end":13004.54,"text":"好 參選委員在陳水火保委員"},{"start":13005.83,"end":13007.83,"text":"好 那正在剛剛我們羅昭偉"},{"start":13007.83,"end":13009.83,"text":"所提的這些食品入法"},{"start":13009.83,"end":13011.83,"text":"食安的問題"},{"start":13011.83,"end":13013.83,"text":"尤其是最近這個毒油"},{"start":13013.83,"end":13015.83,"text":"讓人心惶惶"},{"start":13015.83,"end":13017.83,"text":"所以我本人同意"},{"start":13017.83,"end":13019.83,"text":"羅昭偉的一個提案"},{"start":13019.83,"end":13021.83,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13023.57,"end":13025.57,"text":"好 秀寶委員謝謝"},{"start":13025.3,"end":13027.3,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13027.3,"end":13029.3,"text":"在學校衛生法裡面就有規定"},{"start":13029.3,"end":13031.3,"text":"中央指揮機關"},{"start":13031.3,"end":13033.3,"text":"應定期會同執行"},{"start":13033.3,"end":13035.3,"text":"是縣市政府稽查學校午餐"},{"start":13035.3,"end":13037.3,"text":"辦理情形便派人訪視"},{"start":13037.3,"end":13039.3,"text":"那"},{"start":13039.3,"end":13041.3,"text":"我們的食品衛生"},{"start":13041.55,"end":13043.55,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法裡面也有寫到"},{"start":13043.55,"end":13045.55,"text":"就是"},{"start":13045.55,"end":13047.55,"text":"食品業者之純業人員"},{"start":13047.55,"end":13049.55,"text":"作業場所設施衛生管理平保"},{"start":13049.55,"end":13051.55,"text":"制度均應符合食品"},{"start":13051.55,"end":13053.55,"text":"治療好衛生的這個規範準則"},{"start":13053.55,"end":13055.55,"text":"那教育部的"},{"start":13055.55,"end":13057.55,"text":"建議條文第18條"},{"start":13057.55,"end":13059.55,"text":"對應到我自己的版本是在第9條"},{"start":13059.55,"end":13061.55,"text":"以及第14條"},{"start":13061.55,"end":13063.55,"text":"那其實內容是大同小異"},{"start":13063.55,"end":13065.55,"text":"大家就針對學校飲食的"},{"start":13065.55,"end":13067.55,"text":"衛生管理及食品進行"},{"start":13067.55,"end":13069.55,"text":"相關的規範"},{"start":13069.55,"end":13071.55,"text":"包括"},{"start":13071.55,"end":13073.55,"text":"學校應加強廚房及其他餐飲場所"},{"start":13073.55,"end":13075.55,"text":"之衛生管理每周"},{"start":13075.55,"end":13077.55,"text":"應至少檢查學校廚房一次"},{"start":13077.55,"end":13079.55,"text":"並與記錄"},{"start":13079.55,"end":13081.55,"text":"保存三年"},{"start":13081.55,"end":13083.55,"text":"那還有主管機關"},{"start":13083.55,"end":13085.55,"text":"應該每學年至少"},{"start":13085.55,"end":13087.55,"text":"一次有衛生及"},{"start":13087.55,"end":13089.55,"text":"農業主管機關抽驗"},{"start":13089.55,"end":13091.55,"text":"學校食品及"},{"start":13091.55,"end":13093.55,"text":"源頭端的農產品"},{"start":13093.55,"end":13095.55,"text":"並"},{"start":13096.82,"end":13098.82,"text":"就是農產品的這個衛生及"},{"start":13098.82,"end":13100.82,"text":"安全的品質"},{"start":13100.82,"end":13102.82,"text":"就是為了這個學校的這個"},{"start":13102.82,"end":13104.82,"text":"飲食的健康來把關"},{"start":13104.82,"end":13106.82,"text":"那對於就是說"},{"start":13106.82,"end":13108.82,"text":"定期稽查法是學校飲食"},{"start":13108.82,"end":13110.82,"text":"來符合食品"},{"start":13110.82,"end":13112.82,"text":"安全衛生管理法"},{"start":13112.82,"end":13114.82,"text":"這個相關的準則"},{"start":13114.82,"end":13116.82,"text":"規範這邊我"},{"start":13116.82,"end":13118.82,"text":"可以支持教育部的條文但是"},{"start":13118.82,"end":13120.82,"text":"我想知道說學校"},{"start":13120.82,"end":13122.82,"text":"你們所訂的這個稽查"},{"start":13122.82,"end":13124.82,"text":"這個稽查的結果是不是"},{"start":13124.82,"end":13126.82,"text":"會進其公布我想"},{"start":13126.82,"end":13128.82,"text":"你們有稽查那有結果"},{"start":13128.82,"end":13130.82,"text":"也是要讓關心的民眾"},{"start":13130.82,"end":13132.82,"text":"家長知道你們"},{"start":13132.82,"end":13134.82,"text":"稽查的結果以上"},{"start":13138.23,"end":13140.23,"text":"我們花園"},{"start":13140.73,"end":13142.73,"text":"好關於第18條"},{"start":13142.73,"end":13144.73,"text":"我這個地方"},{"start":13144.73,"end":13146.73,"text":"其實基本上"},{"start":13146.73,"end":13148.73,"text":"支持教育部的版本"},{"start":13148.73,"end":13150.73,"text":"但是我需要聽一下"},{"start":13150.73,"end":13152.73,"text":"因為我自己"},{"start":13152.73,"end":13154.73,"text":"的版本是比較在意的是"},{"start":13154.73,"end":13156.73,"text":"因為有提到主管機關"},{"start":13156.73,"end":13158.73,"text":"要匯同衛生農業主管"},{"start":13158.73,"end":13160.73,"text":"機關那這個如果"},{"start":13160.73,"end":13162.73,"text":"教育衛生農業"},{"start":13162.73,"end":13164.73,"text":"他各用一套表單"},{"start":13164.73,"end":13166.73,"text":"然後在不同的時間"},{"start":13166.73,"end":13168.73,"text":"重複的查核"},{"start":13168.73,"end":13170.73,"text":"我不曉得這個狀況"},{"start":13170.73,"end":13172.73,"text":"因為我們理想上是希望匯同"},{"start":13172.73,"end":13174.73,"text":"稽查就有統一的檢查"},{"start":13174.73,"end":13176.73,"text":"項目結果的共享"},{"start":13176.73,"end":13178.73,"text":"跟一次的改善追蹤"},{"start":13178.73,"end":13180.73,"text":"所以這個部分想要了解一下"},{"start":13180.73,"end":13182.73,"text":"那第二個就是說也有"},{"start":13182.73,"end":13184.73,"text":"提到就是這些廚房"},{"start":13184.73,"end":13186.73,"text":"老舊的部分那如果"},{"start":13186.73,"end":13188.73,"text":"發現廚房老舊冷藏通風"},{"start":13188.73,"end":13190.73,"text":"排水這些問題"},{"start":13190.73,"end":13192.73,"text":"那主管機關呢"},{"start":13192.73,"end":13194.73,"text":"是不是不能只要求"},{"start":13194.73,"end":13196.73,"text":"限期改善因為我們最終"},{"start":13196.73,"end":13198.73,"text":"還是希望安全所以是不是"},{"start":13198.73,"end":13200.73,"text":"要連結第八條的一個設備"},{"start":13200.73,"end":13202.73,"text":"補助那再來就是"},{"start":13202.73,"end":13204.73,"text":"關於人員訓練他的"},{"start":13204.73,"end":13206.73,"text":"對象時數跟方式"},{"start":13206.73,"end":13208.73,"text":"可以放在此法"},{"start":13208.73,"end":13210.73,"text":"但是要不要提供"},{"start":13210.73,"end":13212.73,"text":"什麼公假待班或"},{"start":13212.73,"end":13214.73,"text":"線上課程等等那希望"},{"start":13214.73,"end":13216.73,"text":"就是不要增加這種未經"},{"start":13216.73,"end":13218.73,"text":"補償的這種工作負擔"},{"start":13218.73,"end":13220.73,"text":"那希望先做一聽一下"},{"start":13220.73,"end":13222.73,"text":"教育部的說明謝謝"},{"start":13223.96,"end":13225.96,"text":"好 工學委員"},{"start":13226.64,"end":13228.64,"text":"沒有對不起對不起"},{"start":13228.64,"end":13230.64,"text":"那我也可以講一下"},{"start":13230.64,"end":13232.64,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13232.64,"end":13234.64,"text":"那個部版的這個第十八條"},{"start":13234.64,"end":13236.64,"text":"是對應到我的第十三條"},{"start":13236.64,"end":13238.64,"text":"那我們理念"},{"start":13238.64,"end":13240.64,"text":"其實是一致的就要求"},{"start":13240.64,"end":13242.64,"text":"每週要檢查廚房還有其他"},{"start":13242.64,"end":13244.64,"text":"飲食的一個場所並"},{"start":13244.64,"end":13246.64,"text":"做紀錄那面對這個"},{"start":13246.64,"end":13248.64,"text":"校園食物中毒的一個"},{"start":13248.64,"end":13250.64,"text":"事件也應該要"},{"start":13250.64,"end":13252.64,"text":"就是每學年要至少跟這個"},{"start":13252.64,"end":13254.64,"text":"農業或者是衛生"},{"start":13254.64,"end":13256.64,"text":"單位來抽查"},{"start":13256.64,"end":13258.64,"text":"那我想這個是"},{"start":13258.64,"end":13260.64,"text":"就是我的方向是一致的"},{"start":13260.64,"end":13262.64,"text":"那等一下就是剛剛武林華委員"},{"start":13262.64,"end":13264.64,"text":"所提到的再請教一部來做一下"},{"start":13264.64,"end":13266.64,"text":"說明好以上"},{"start":13267.14,"end":13269.14,"text":"好 不好意思我再補充一下"},{"start":13269.14,"end":13271.14,"text":"我想說日本跟韓國的經驗"},{"start":13271.14,"end":13273.14,"text":"都顯示學校午餐具有"},{"start":13273.14,"end":13275.14,"text":"教育 營養 學生安全"},{"start":13275.14,"end":13277.14,"text":"特殊性 跟一般的一些"},{"start":13277.14,"end":13279.14,"text":"食品安全法制"},{"start":13279.14,"end":13281.14,"text":"的處理我覺得這個部分"},{"start":13281.14,"end":13283.14,"text":"一般食品安全法制"},{"start":13283.14,"end":13285.14,"text":"它主要規範是食品製造"},{"start":13285.14,"end":13287.14,"text":"檢驗流通追溯下架"},{"start":13287.14,"end":13289.14,"text":"及業者的責任"},{"start":13289.14,"end":13291.14,"text":"但是學校午餐專法則進一步處理"},{"start":13291.14,"end":13293.14,"text":"食品進入校園"},{"start":13293.14,"end":13295.14,"text":"由誰檢驗 誰管理 驗收"},{"start":13295.14,"end":13297.14,"text":"通報 停止使用 誰來處理決策"},{"start":13297.14,"end":13299.14,"text":"如何安排誰"},{"start":13299.14,"end":13301.14,"text":"替代共餐"},{"start":13301.14,"end":13303.14,"text":"如何告知家長 營養師"},{"start":13303.14,"end":13305.14,"text":"學校 教育主管機關"},{"start":13305.14,"end":13307.14,"text":"各應該負的責任"},{"start":13307.14,"end":13309.14,"text":"所以韓國在整個處理"},{"start":13309.14,"end":13311.14,"text":"重大校園食安事件"},{"start":13311.14,"end":13313.14,"text":"全面強化學校"},{"start":13313.14,"end":13315.14,"text":"的一個相關法令"},{"start":13315.14,"end":13317.14,"text":"正說明一般食安法與學校"},{"start":13317.14,"end":13319.14,"text":"午餐專法的必須"},{"start":13319.14,"end":13321.14,"text":"是相互銜接的"},{"start":13321.14,"end":13323.14,"text":"不是拿來相互取代"},{"start":13323.14,"end":13325.14,"text":"我覺得這兩者我要在這邊"},{"start":13325.14,"end":13327.14,"text":"跟所有的委員特別報告"},{"start":13327.14,"end":13329.14,"text":"我覺得它有其特殊性"},{"start":13329.14,"end":13331.14,"text":"就是營養午餐的這個地位"},{"start":13331.14,"end":13333.14,"text":"跟它的存在"},{"start":13333.14,"end":13335.14,"text":"跟一般的食品的差異"},{"start":13335.14,"end":13337.14,"text":"這部分也跟所有的委員特別報告"},{"start":13337.14,"end":13339.14,"text":"那再來我們請教育部"},{"start":13343.55,"end":13345.55,"text":"剛剛有八位委員所提的這些意見"},{"start":13345.55,"end":13349.55,"text":"其實在春秋委員這邊所提之後"},{"start":13349.55,"end":13351.55,"text":"變得還包含朝委"},{"start":13351.55,"end":13353.55,"text":"內容展變得更豐富多元"},{"start":13355.33,"end":13357.33,"text":"那現在我分"},{"start":13357.12,"end":13359.12,"text":"兩個面向跟大家報告"},{"start":13359.12,"end":13361.12,"text":"第一個就是原來的條文"},{"start":13361.12,"end":13365.12,"text":"是就相關既有機制強化"},{"start":13365.12,"end":13367.12,"text":"那這一次委員給我們看到"},{"start":13367.12,"end":13369.12,"text":"更加強了這一次食安"},{"start":13369.12,"end":13371.12,"text":"有的這個問題的因應"},{"start":13371.12,"end":13375.12,"text":"這是目前所特別加的"},{"start":13375.12,"end":13377.12,"text":"是羅委員跟蔡委員特別加這個面向"},{"start":13377.12,"end":13379.12,"text":"那其他委員也都很關心"},{"start":13379.12,"end":13383.12,"text":"我先就目前的設計跟大家做個報告"},{"start":13383.12,"end":13385.12,"text":"是不是有一些條文其實有在"},{"start":13385.12,"end":13387.12,"text":"只是說它現況怎麼運作"},{"start":13387.12,"end":13389.12,"text":"各位委員想要知道"},{"start":13389.12,"end":13391.12,"text":"有沒有附和委員的想法"},{"start":13391.12,"end":13393.12,"text":"例如前面的"},{"start":13393.8,"end":13395.8,"text":"第一項"},{"start":13395.03,"end":13397.03,"text":"是在講學校"},{"start":13397.03,"end":13399.03,"text":"第二三項開始講學校跟主管機關"},{"start":13400.57,"end":13402.57,"text":"所以學校主管機關怎麼查驗"},{"start":13402.57,"end":13404.57,"text":"在前三項有講"},{"start":13404.57,"end":13406.57,"text":"簡單的講學校每週"},{"start":13407.18,"end":13409.18,"text":"主管機關美學年"},{"start":13409.18,"end":13411.18,"text":"有些縣市美學期"},{"start":13411.29,"end":13413.29,"text":"大概就這樣"},{"start":13413.29,"end":13415.29,"text":"學校是每週"},{"start":13414.8,"end":13416.8,"text":"各主管機關法律要求"},{"start":13416.8,"end":13418.8,"text":"從學校衛生法到現在"},{"start":13418.8,"end":13420.8,"text":"大概就是美學年"},{"start":13420.2,"end":13422.2,"text":"有些縣市用自治條例變成美學期"},{"start":13422.2,"end":13424.2,"text":"那剛剛委員有問到"},{"start":13424.92,"end":13426.92,"text":"是怎麼樣去查"},{"start":13426.92,"end":13428.92,"text":"是會同去查"},{"start":13428.92,"end":13430.92,"text":"不會分別去查"},{"start":13430.92,"end":13432.92,"text":"以前的法規是這樣寫"},{"start":13432.92,"end":13434.92,"text":"我們也這樣運作"},{"start":13434.92,"end":13436.92,"text":"現在的法規也是依以前運作以來很有效果的方法"},{"start":13436.92,"end":13438.92,"text":"是會同的"},{"start":13438.92,"end":13440.92,"text":"那但藉由一些"},{"start":13438.13,"end":13440.13,"text":"我們學校的食品的相關的"},{"start":13440.13,"end":13442.13,"text":"進用的平台"},{"start":13442.13,"end":13444.13,"text":"跟管制的相關的作業規範"},{"start":13444.13,"end":13446.13,"text":"其實目前學校"},{"start":13446.13,"end":13448.13,"text":"在強度上"},{"start":13448.13,"end":13450.13,"text":"相對是很強的"},{"start":13450.13,"end":13452.13,"text":"比起有一些"},{"start":13452.13,"end":13454.13,"text":"當食藥署宣布什麼"},{"start":13454.13,"end":13456.13,"text":"學校我們一清查"},{"start":13456.13,"end":13458.13,"text":"我們有時候是直接"},{"start":13458.13,"end":13460.13,"text":"就先直接下架"},{"start":13460.13,"end":13462.13,"text":"所以在整個管控的特殊性上"},{"start":13462.13,"end":13464.13,"text":"跟昭偉講的是很像的"},{"start":13464.13,"end":13466.13,"text":"跟外面的食品"},{"start":13466.13,"end":13468.13,"text":"有時候我們直接下架的強度"},{"start":13468.13,"end":13470.13,"text":"跟地方政府確認之後"},{"start":13470.13,"end":13472.13,"text":"我們直接宣布就先處理了"},{"start":13472.13,"end":13474.13,"text":"有時候的確有他的特殊性"},{"start":13474.13,"end":13476.13,"text":"那現況也是這樣運作"},{"start":13476.13,"end":13478.13,"text":"跟昭偉報告一下"},{"start":13478.6,"end":13480.6,"text":"最後就是回應到"},{"start":13480.6,"end":13482.6,"text":"剛剛有幾個可能一定要"},{"start":13482.6,"end":13484.6,"text":"確認要不要放上來"},{"start":13484.6,"end":13486.6,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":13486.6,"end":13488.6,"text":"一二三四五"},{"start":13488.6,"end":13490.6,"text":"第六項昭偉剛剛所念的"},{"start":13490.6,"end":13492.6,"text":"很用心想說"},{"start":13494.29,"end":13496.29,"text":"共產廠商"},{"start":13495.96,"end":13497.96,"text":"工業廠商等等等等"},{"start":13497.96,"end":13499.96,"text":"他們一知道"},{"start":13499.96,"end":13501.96,"text":"有什麼狀況的時候"},{"start":13501.96,"end":13503.96,"text":"應該要立即通知學校跟主管機關"},{"start":13503.96,"end":13505.96,"text":"這個"},{"start":13504.99,"end":13506.99,"text":"要馬上"},{"start":13507.17,"end":13509.17,"text":"通知了這件事"},{"start":13508.99,"end":13510.99,"text":"跟以近況來講"},{"start":13510.99,"end":13512.99,"text":"的確這個是新訂的"},{"start":13513.7,"end":13515.7,"text":"以目前我們的作業"},{"start":13515.7,"end":13517.7,"text":"我們是透過我們的"},{"start":13517.7,"end":13519.7,"text":"整個智慧雲"},{"start":13519.7,"end":13521.7,"text":"處理出來的通報學校"},{"start":13521.7,"end":13523.7,"text":"要求他趕快就細節"},{"start":13523.7,"end":13525.7,"text":"做了解然後回報"},{"start":13525.7,"end":13527.7,"text":"然後該下架就立即做處理"},{"start":13527.7,"end":13529.7,"text":"那委員講的這一套"},{"start":13529.7,"end":13531.7,"text":"是連廠商自己就"},{"start":13531.7,"end":13533.7,"text":"應該有責任要主動"},{"start":13533.7,"end":13535.7,"text":"那這個我們可以支持"},{"start":13535.7,"end":13537.7,"text":"只是說條文的意旨上"},{"start":13537.7,"end":13539.7,"text":"因為會涉及到中央"},{"start":13539.7,"end":13541.7,"text":"還有一些主管機關包含食藥署等等"},{"start":13541.7,"end":13543.7,"text":"這個文字我沒有辦法"},{"start":13543.7,"end":13545.7,"text":"這麼快在這邊"},{"start":13545.7,"end":13547.7,"text":"就覺得好像"},{"start":13547.7,"end":13549.7,"text":"因為剛看到是不是可以允許"},{"start":13549.7,"end":13551.7,"text":"食藥署或是"},{"start":13551.7,"end":13553.7,"text":"衛福部的夥伴也確認一下"},{"start":13555.09,"end":13557.09,"text":"那昭偉所提的分號後面"},{"start":13557.09,"end":13559.09,"text":"涉及到外部工餐"},{"start":13559.09,"end":13561.09,"text":"作業場所"},{"start":13561.03,"end":13565.03,"text":"這個就會有涉及到學校級"},{"start":13565.94,"end":13567.94,"text":"有關的作業上"},{"start":13567.94,"end":13571.94,"text":"不一定是學校能夠利用契約直接掌握的"},{"start":13572.83,"end":13574.83,"text":"這個時候是不是也食藥署"},{"start":13574.83,"end":13576.83,"text":"有些相關規範也聽聽他們的高見"},{"start":13576.83,"end":13578.83,"text":"以上"},{"start":13579.73,"end":13581.73,"text":"昭偉所提的第六項"},{"start":13581.73,"end":13583.73,"text":"我們覺得方向上可能"},{"start":13583.73,"end":13585.73,"text":"在支持度上應該會獲得"},{"start":13585.73,"end":13587.73,"text":"大家的包含其他委員看看是不是"},{"start":13587.73,"end":13589.73,"text":"可以有沒有我們漏思考的"},{"start":13589.73,"end":13591.73,"text":"沒有的話其他的文字"},{"start":13591.73,"end":13593.73,"text":"是不是我們建請"},{"start":13593.73,"end":13595.73,"text":"衛福部要稍微再確認一下"},{"start":13595.73,"end":13597.73,"text":"有沒有在目前其實有些法規"},{"start":13597.73,"end":13599.73,"text":"包含相關的食品衛生法已經有了"},{"start":13599.73,"end":13601.73,"text":"這個就沒有把握"},{"start":13601.73,"end":13603.73,"text":"是不是可以請食藥署或是"},{"start":13603.73,"end":13605.73,"text":"衛福部說明一下"},{"start":13605.73,"end":13607.73,"text":"好那這樣子我請食藥署"},{"start":13607.73,"end":13609.73,"text":"我們衛福部稍微看一下法令"},{"start":13609.73,"end":13611.73,"text":"可以現在回令嗎"},{"start":13611.71,"end":13613.71,"text":"好你們先看"},{"start":13613.71,"end":13615.71,"text":"跟委員特別報告基本上聽起來"},{"start":13615.71,"end":13617.71,"text":"國教署是"},{"start":13617.71,"end":13619.71,"text":"認同這個方向"},{"start":13619.71,"end":13621.71,"text":"但文字上要不要馬上"},{"start":13621.71,"end":13623.71,"text":"定調再給他們一點時間"},{"start":13623.71,"end":13625.71,"text":"我們先"},{"start":13627.88,"end":13629.88,"text":"我是建議"},{"start":13629.88,"end":13631.88,"text":"也給你們不要現在就馬上決定"},{"start":13631.88,"end":13633.88,"text":"食藥署跟衛福部你們回去"},{"start":13633.88,"end":13635.88,"text":"再討論一下我們先保留"},{"start":13636.11,"end":13638.11,"text":"我們先保留"},{"start":13638.11,"end":13640.11,"text":"你們回去好好討論一下在用字潛質上"},{"start":13640.11,"end":13642.11,"text":"能不能更加完善"},{"start":13642.11,"end":13644.11,"text":"有關於我今天先不逼你們"},{"start":13644.11,"end":13646.11,"text":"馬上申出版本"},{"start":13646.11,"end":13648.11,"text":"剛剛國教署有說這個方向"},{"start":13648.11,"end":13650.11,"text":"大致可以認同但是分號後面"},{"start":13650.11,"end":13652.11,"text":"有關於外部"},{"start":13653.32,"end":13655.32,"text":"在這個公餐的作業場所"},{"start":13655.32,"end":13657.32,"text":"要通報當地主管機關"},{"start":13657.32,"end":13659.32,"text":"衛生主管機關這部分的"},{"start":13659.32,"end":13661.32,"text":"用字潛質你們看怎麼因應怎麼寫會更好"},{"start":13662.23,"end":13664.23,"text":"報告召委"},{"start":13664.23,"end":13666.23,"text":"剛剛不管是分號前或後"},{"start":13666.23,"end":13668.23,"text":"還是請食藥署都可以一起看一下"},{"start":13668.23,"end":13670.23,"text":"以及像剛剛"},{"start":13670.23,"end":13672.23,"text":"秀華委員等等還有包含幾會委員"},{"start":13672.23,"end":13674.23,"text":"有提到說有一些結果"},{"start":13674.23,"end":13676.23,"text":"要公告出來這一個"},{"start":13676.23,"end":13678.23,"text":"也都蠻有價值的"},{"start":13678.23,"end":13680.23,"text":"所以這兩點上是不是"},{"start":13680.23,"end":13682.23,"text":"也建請食藥署整體還有我們同仁這邊"},{"start":13682.23,"end":13684.23,"text":"以及跟中規司這邊"},{"start":13684.23,"end":13686.23,"text":"會有涉及到學校衛生法"},{"start":13686.23,"end":13688.23,"text":"整體的運作"},{"start":13688.23,"end":13690.23,"text":"是不是允許我們兩邊"},{"start":13690.23,"end":13692.23,"text":"不要說分號前分號後"},{"start":13692.23,"end":13696.23,"text":"還有裡面有提到告知家長這一個"},{"start":13696.23,"end":13698.23,"text":"也是一個很好的觀念"},{"start":13698.23,"end":13700.23,"text":"但是怎麼運作因為這個文字寫的"},{"start":13700.23,"end":13702.23,"text":"比較多而且是地方政府原來沒看過的"},{"start":13702.23,"end":13704.23,"text":"所以要再確認一下"},{"start":13704.23,"end":13706.23,"text":"那個吳佩儀委員"},{"start":13709.85,"end":13711.85,"text":"第18條因為有些部分要請衛福部"},{"start":13711.85,"end":13713.85,"text":"來幫忙看那我就也特別提"},{"start":13713.85,"end":13715.85,"text":"是因為修正動議版本"},{"start":13715.85,"end":13717.85,"text":"裡面有提到食品良好衛生規範"},{"start":13717.85,"end":13719.85,"text":"準則那要拜託"},{"start":13719.85,"end":13721.85,"text":"衛福部來跟國教署兩邊"},{"start":13721.85,"end":13723.85,"text":"對齊一下那就是到底"},{"start":13723.85,"end":13725.85,"text":"按照這個準則需要做到哪些"},{"start":13725.85,"end":13727.85,"text":"事情多做哪些事我覺得要具體"},{"start":13727.85,"end":13729.85,"text":"的來表列那像"},{"start":13729.85,"end":13731.85,"text":"比如說像是在我們有一些偏鄉小校"},{"start":13731.85,"end":13733.85,"text":"這個他們有沒有辦法來執行"},{"start":13733.85,"end":13735.85,"text":"然後比如說每週要檢查"},{"start":13735.85,"end":13737.85,"text":"一次是按照GHP"},{"start":13737.85,"end":13739.85,"text":"的這個規範去做檢查嗎"},{"start":13739.85,"end":13741.85,"text":"這個國教署請務必跟衛福部這邊"},{"start":13741.85,"end":13743.85,"text":"你們要討論細節要把它再"},{"start":13743.85,"end":13745.85,"text":"更具體一點因為如果這個文字"},{"start":13745.85,"end":13747.85,"text":"真的訂下去了這涉及到現場執行"},{"start":13747.85,"end":13749.85,"text":"的問題"},{"start":13751.89,"end":13753.89,"text":"我再提醒一下我們現場所有的"},{"start":13753.89,"end":13755.89,"text":"官員我們所提的這一個"},{"start":13755.89,"end":13757.89,"text":"建議"},{"start":13757.89,"end":13759.89,"text":"除了我剛剛所提到的分號後面"},{"start":13759.89,"end":13761.89,"text":"有講主管機關學校"},{"start":13761.89,"end":13763.89,"text":"辦理我下面還有下一段第五項"},{"start":13763.89,"end":13765.89,"text":"所訂事件的涉及食品食材"},{"start":13765.89,"end":13767.89,"text":"還有學校供應"},{"start":13767.89,"end":13769.89,"text":"廠商食材供應廠商這些"},{"start":13769.89,"end":13771.89,"text":"配合追溯的部分不得規避"},{"start":13771.89,"end":13773.89,"text":"妨礙拒絕"},{"start":13773.89,"end":13775.89,"text":"供應廠商食材供應廠商"},{"start":13775.89,"end":13777.89,"text":"這個部分的相關我們要"},{"start":13777.89,"end":13779.89,"text":"有相關的法令我都有寫在這裡"},{"start":13779.89,"end":13781.89,"text":"比較完整文字比較多"},{"start":13781.89,"end":13783.89,"text":"剛剛我只有提到前面這個部分"},{"start":13783.89,"end":13785.89,"text":"還沒有提到也跟你們稍微"},{"start":13785.89,"end":13787.89,"text":"說明一下請你們這個部分都要"},{"start":13787.89,"end":13789.89,"text":"拿回去再討論一下"},{"start":13789.89,"end":13791.89,"text":"讓他更加完善第十八條"},{"start":13791.89,"end":13793.89,"text":"我們就先保留"},{"start":13796.78,"end":13798.78,"text":"因為他們說文字要再更精準"},{"start":13798.78,"end":13800.78,"text":"但是這個方向你們可以認同"},{"start":13802.18,"end":13804.18,"text":"可以可以可以"},{"start":13805.89,"end":13807.89,"text":"我再用一下"},{"start":13807.89,"end":13809.89,"text":"因為我的提案是特別針對在第十六條裡頭"},{"start":13809.89,"end":13811.89,"text":"也就是這個"},{"start":13811.89,"end":13813.89,"text":"處公"},{"start":13813.72,"end":13815.72,"text":"你們剛剛做成的決議"},{"start":13815.72,"end":13817.72,"text":"還是一樣先做保留"},{"start":13817.72,"end":13819.72,"text":"跟委員特別報告"},{"start":13819.72,"end":13821.72,"text":"你關心處公的部分我們是保留"},{"start":13821.72,"end":13823.72,"text":"處公營養師都是保留"},{"start":13823.72,"end":13825.72,"text":"因為那個部分就是用字上"},{"start":13825.72,"end":13827.72,"text":"大家還有一些細節的琢磨"},{"start":13827.72,"end":13829.72,"text":"因為我認為說因為以往"},{"start":13829.72,"end":13831.72,"text":"像我讀書的時候我是"},{"start":13831.72,"end":13833.72,"text":"六十七號"},{"start":13833.72,"end":13835.72,"text":"現在一般的班級"},{"start":13835.72,"end":13837.72,"text":"三十五個"},{"start":13837.72,"end":13839.72,"text":"三十個這個左右"},{"start":13839.72,"end":13841.72,"text":"所以以往沒有很清楚的"},{"start":13841.72,"end":13843.72,"text":"所以我還是訂定在這個"},{"start":13843.72,"end":13845.72,"text":"處公跟營養師"},{"start":13845.72,"end":13847.72,"text":"我覺得這個對學校來講是"},{"start":13847.72,"end":13849.72,"text":"對家長來講很重要"},{"start":13849.72,"end":13851.72,"text":"所以我希望保留之後"},{"start":13851.72,"end":13853.72,"text":"各單位可能還要趕快"},{"start":13853.72,"end":13855.72,"text":"去研議出來"},{"start":13855.72,"end":13857.72,"text":"這是我的建議"},{"start":13857.72,"end":13859.72,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13871.72,"end":13873.72,"text":"第十九條謝謝"},{"start":13887.38,"end":13889.38,"text":"好有委員舉手嗎"},{"start":13889.98,"end":13891.98,"text":"沒有的話我們就讓教育部來"},{"start":13891.98,"end":13893.98,"text":"請針對"},{"start":13893.98,"end":13895.98,"text":"我的"},{"start":13895.98,"end":13897.98,"text":"修正動議的部分"},{"start":13897.98,"end":13899.98,"text":"那我也是寫的是以"},{"start":13899.98,"end":13901.98,"text":"教育部為基底"},{"start":13901.98,"end":13903.98,"text":"那有增加幾個字喔"},{"start":13903.98,"end":13905.98,"text":"比如說第二段"},{"start":13905.98,"end":13907.98,"text":"學校得隨時派員或委託代表"},{"start":13907.98,"end":13909.98,"text":"至工餐作業場所來了解"},{"start":13909.98,"end":13911.98,"text":"那食品衛生管理辦法"},{"start":13911.98,"end":13913.98,"text":"作業"},{"start":13913.6,"end":13915.6,"text":"發現有衛生不良情形者"},{"start":13915.6,"end":13917.6,"text":"應立即通報工餐"},{"start":13917.6,"end":13919.6,"text":"作業場所所在地的衛生主管"},{"start":13919.6,"end":13921.6,"text":"機關依食品安全"},{"start":13921.6,"end":13923.6,"text":"衛生管理法及相關規定處理"},{"start":13923.6,"end":13925.6,"text":"情節重大或有危害學校"},{"start":13925.6,"end":13927.6,"text":"學生健康"},{"start":13927.6,"end":13929.6,"text":"或工餐安全疑慮"},{"start":13929.6,"end":13931.6,"text":"應該通知該校"},{"start":13931.6,"end":13933.6,"text":"主管機關喔"},{"start":13933.6,"end":13935.6,"text":"這個部分也是跟所有的委員特別報告"},{"start":13935.6,"end":13937.6,"text":"我們希望能夠訂定"},{"start":13937.6,"end":13939.6,"text":"不定時且"},{"start":13939.6,"end":13941.6,"text":"可以去做抽查"},{"start":13941.6,"end":13943.6,"text":"查驗的部分"},{"start":13943.6,"end":13945.6,"text":"來隨時保障"},{"start":13945.6,"end":13947.6,"text":"當然也附有一些彈性喔"},{"start":13947.6,"end":13949.6,"text":"學校可以隨時派員或委託代表"},{"start":13949.6,"end":13951.6,"text":"這個部分來讓"},{"start":13951.6,"end":13953.6,"text":"臨時的關心"},{"start":13953.6,"end":13955.6,"text":"機查能夠更加的順暢"},{"start":13955.6,"end":13957.6,"text":"所以也是"},{"start":13957.6,"end":13959.6,"text":"為了這個學生的營養午餐"},{"start":13959.6,"end":13961.6,"text":"健康啦"},{"start":13961.6,"end":13963.6,"text":"這個部分來跟委員報告"},{"start":13963.6,"end":13965.6,"text":"那是不是請教育部直接回應"},{"start":13969.17,"end":13971.17,"text":"謝謝昭偉,這裡有兩點不同"},{"start":13971.17,"end":13973.17,"text":"第一點是格式上的不同"},{"start":13973.17,"end":13975.17,"text":"原來是一項,昭偉這邊是兩項"},{"start":13975.17,"end":13977.17,"text":"大概"},{"start":13977.17,"end":13979.17,"text":"應該都可以"},{"start":13979.17,"end":13981.17,"text":"昭偉這邊是把規定"},{"start":13981.17,"end":13983.17,"text":"這個句號之後切成第二項"},{"start":13983.17,"end":13985.17,"text":"接著第二個"},{"start":13985.17,"end":13987.17,"text":"比較特別的地方是"},{"start":13987.17,"end":13989.17,"text":"原來我們在整個的規劃"},{"start":13989.17,"end":13991.17,"text":"是按照現行法規"},{"start":13991.17,"end":13993.17,"text":"有一些他到場"},{"start":13993.17,"end":13995.17,"text":"或是到工餐作業場所了解之後"},{"start":13995.17,"end":13997.17,"text":"他是跟當地所在地的"},{"start":13997.17,"end":13999.17,"text":"衛生主管機關來按照相關法規處理"},{"start":13999.17,"end":14001.17,"text":"那"},{"start":14001.17,"end":14003.17,"text":"委員這邊會有提到"},{"start":14003.17,"end":14005.17,"text":"一些跟該校主管機關"},{"start":14005.17,"end":14007.17,"text":"就是學校主管機關"},{"start":14007.17,"end":14009.17,"text":"就是教育局"},{"start":14009.17,"end":14011.17,"text":"所以這個後段增加了一個"},{"start":14011.17,"end":14013.17,"text":"這個情節重大危害學生等等"},{"start":14013.17,"end":14015.17,"text":"這個要跟教育局通報這個"},{"start":14015.17,"end":14017.17,"text":"原則上昭偉可能會"},{"start":14017.17,"end":14019.17,"text":"認為這個不影響"},{"start":14019.68,"end":14021.68,"text":"前段"},{"start":14021.68,"end":14023.68,"text":"他是增加通知"},{"start":14023.68,"end":14025.68,"text":"當情節重大的時候"},{"start":14025.68,"end":14027.68,"text":"現在就是情節重大跟有危害學生"},{"start":14027.68,"end":14029.68,"text":"這一些之餘的定調"},{"start":14029.68,"end":14031.68,"text":"會讓學校在相關執行"},{"start":14031.68,"end":14033.68,"text":"或是有關委辦團隊執行時"},{"start":14033.68,"end":14035.68,"text":"如果他"},{"start":14035.68,"end":14037.68,"text":"依這個情節重大與否"},{"start":14037.68,"end":14039.68,"text":"要判斷可能會衍生"},{"start":14039.68,"end":14041.68,"text":"相關判斷上"},{"start":14042.28,"end":14044.28,"text":"做了跟沒做的後遺"},{"start":14044.28,"end":14046.28,"text":"要就責的情形"},{"start":14046.28,"end":14048.28,"text":"所以原來"},{"start":14048.28,"end":14050.28,"text":"是整個收歸為整個衛生機關"},{"start":14050.28,"end":14052.28,"text":"他本來就在處理的"},{"start":14052.28,"end":14054.28,"text":"這樣的一個規範中"},{"start":14054.28,"end":14056.28,"text":"所以更新委員是不是"},{"start":14056.28,"end":14058.28,"text":"要考慮第二項的最末段"},{"start":14058.28,"end":14060.28,"text":"這個有沒有在"},{"start":14060.28,"end":14062.28,"text":"執行上會讓學校"},{"start":14062.28,"end":14064.28,"text":"或是學校主管機關"},{"start":14064.28,"end":14066.28,"text":"就教育局這個體系上"},{"start":14066.28,"end":14068.28,"text":"整體在運作上"},{"start":14068.28,"end":14070.28,"text":"會有多加的一個"},{"start":14070.28,"end":14072.28,"text":"所以現在這麼容易去判斷"},{"start":14072.28,"end":14074.28,"text":"而且判斷上又會跟衛生單位"},{"start":14074.28,"end":14076.28,"text":"有一些整體要確認的"},{"start":14076.28,"end":14078.28,"text":"那這樣子增加的事情"},{"start":14078.28,"end":14080.28,"text":"可能學校辦午餐"},{"start":14080.28,"end":14082.28,"text":"其實已經很用心"},{"start":14082.28,"end":14084.28,"text":"又還要做這一部分處理的話"},{"start":14084.28,"end":14086.28,"text":"似乎是原來一般比較沒有的"},{"start":14086.28,"end":14088.28,"text":"項目是不是統籌在衛生單位"},{"start":14088.28,"end":14090.28,"text":"以上補充"},{"start":14090.89,"end":14092.89,"text":"好 那謝謝"},{"start":14092.89,"end":14094.89,"text":"國教署署長 我覺得"},{"start":14094.89,"end":14096.89,"text":"署長的說法沒有錯啦"},{"start":14096.89,"end":14098.89,"text":"他也是擔心學校沒有這個人力"},{"start":14098.89,"end":14100.89,"text":"但是我也擔心衛生單位"},{"start":14100.89,"end":14102.89,"text":"沒有這個人力 那怎麼辦"},{"start":14102.89,"end":14104.89,"text":"那到底誰要去做稽查臨時"},{"start":14104.89,"end":14106.89,"text":"的這個抽查"},{"start":14106.89,"end":14108.89,"text":"那這個部分 我是認為"},{"start":14108.89,"end":14110.89,"text":"學校因為也有簽訂合約的話"},{"start":14110.89,"end":14112.89,"text":"那他也有責任要處理"},{"start":14112.89,"end":14114.89,"text":"所以他委託代表比如說"},{"start":14114.89,"end":14116.89,"text":"家長會"},{"start":14116.37,"end":14118.37,"text":"比如說限職的營養師"},{"start":14118.37,"end":14120.37,"text":"這部分我覺得細節大家可以討論"},{"start":14120.37,"end":14122.37,"text":"但是為什麼會訂這樣"},{"start":14122.37,"end":14124.37,"text":"就是希望說要有一個抽查機制"},{"start":14124.37,"end":14126.37,"text":"那當然我能夠體諒國教署"},{"start":14126.37,"end":14128.37,"text":"真的 老師"},{"start":14128.37,"end":14130.37,"text":"工作很多了 所以不可以再"},{"start":14130.37,"end":14132.37,"text":"委託老師再處理這件事情"},{"start":14132.37,"end":14134.37,"text":"所以我特別"},{"start":14134.37,"end":14136.37,"text":"開宗明義就寫"},{"start":14136.94,"end":14138.94,"text":"委託代表"},{"start":14138.6,"end":14140.6,"text":"所以家長會的部分"},{"start":14140.6,"end":14142.6,"text":"或者是特別"},{"start":14142.6,"end":14144.6,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的一個機關可以去協助處理"},{"start":14144.6,"end":14146.6,"text":"的部分 也希望國教署能夠在"},{"start":14146.6,"end":14148.6,"text":"這個文字上大家能夠把它"},{"start":14148.6,"end":14150.6,"text":"更加完善 但是目的不要改變"},{"start":14150.6,"end":14152.6,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":14152.6,"end":14154.6,"text":"張委剛剛所提我們能夠"},{"start":14154.6,"end":14156.6,"text":"了解 我們現在同時也"},{"start":14156.6,"end":14158.6,"text":"特別就是剛剛說明是注意到最後"},{"start":14158.6,"end":14160.6,"text":"一句 是說"},{"start":14160.6,"end":14162.6,"text":"情節重大會有危害學生健康"},{"start":14162.6,"end":14164.6,"text":"公三治癒者"},{"start":14164.6,"end":14166.6,"text":"並應通知該校主管機關"},{"start":14166.6,"end":14168.6,"text":"那這裡是以往所沒有"},{"start":14168.6,"end":14170.6,"text":"這次多出來的"},{"start":14170.6,"end":14172.6,"text":"那我們剛才建議說"},{"start":14172.6,"end":14174.6,"text":"因為這個涉及到一些判斷"},{"start":14174.6,"end":14176.6,"text":"其實本來這整體衛生單位"},{"start":14176.6,"end":14178.6,"text":"不管就這一次遊品的整體的查查通"},{"start":14178.6,"end":14180.6,"text":"或是公告 其實衛生單位都"},{"start":14180.6,"end":14182.6,"text":"一直以來都掌握在"},{"start":14182.6,"end":14184.6,"text":"這個專業上"},{"start":14184.6,"end":14186.6,"text":"目前增加這一點"},{"start":14186.6,"end":14188.6,"text":"會延伸學校"},{"start":14188.6,"end":14190.6,"text":"以及學校教育主管機關"},{"start":14190.6,"end":14192.6,"text":"要多所增加這個情節重大"},{"start":14192.6,"end":14194.6,"text":"等等的判斷"},{"start":14194.6,"end":14196.6,"text":"增加後續的通報"},{"start":14196.6,"end":14198.6,"text":"原來這些事都是衛生主管機關"},{"start":14198.6,"end":14200.6,"text":"就一併處理的"},{"start":14200.6,"end":14202.6,"text":"至於前面整體學校派員"},{"start":14202.6,"end":14204.6,"text":"或是委託代表這個"},{"start":14204.6,"end":14206.6,"text":"跟委員的文字是相當"},{"start":14206.6,"end":14208.6,"text":"現在我們比較擔心的是"},{"start":14208.19,"end":14210.19,"text":"最後那兩句話"},{"start":14210.19,"end":14212.19,"text":"是比較沒有"},{"start":14213.13,"end":14215.13,"text":"我知道"},{"start":14215.13,"end":14217.13,"text":"怎麼認定這個部分"},{"start":14217.13,"end":14219.13,"text":"當然我覺得要更加完善"},{"start":14219.13,"end":14221.13,"text":"我還是這樣建議"},{"start":14221.13,"end":14223.13,"text":"教育部我也尊重你們"},{"start":14223.13,"end":14225.13,"text":"我當然不能直接這個文字就處理掉"},{"start":14225.13,"end":14227.13,"text":"那我們是不是也保留"},{"start":14227.13,"end":14229.13,"text":"但是我拜託"},{"start":14229.13,"end":14231.13,"text":"我們的這個目標看起來許多在場的委員"},{"start":14231.13,"end":14233.13,"text":"大家也都可以認同"},{"start":14233.13,"end":14235.13,"text":"但是能不能"},{"start":14234.6,"end":14236.6,"text":"文字上大家再折衷一下"},{"start":14236.6,"end":14238.6,"text":"讓他有保留這個"},{"start":14238.6,"end":14240.6,"text":"彈性讓你們有機會"},{"start":14240.6,"end":14242.6,"text":"可以進入到這個部分去"},{"start":14242.6,"end":14244.6,"text":"檢核這個部分我請"},{"start":14244.6,"end":14246.6,"text":"待會"},{"start":14246.6,"end":14248.6,"text":"這個也要麻煩我們衛福部"},{"start":14248.6,"end":14250.6,"text":"食藥署這個部分你們給一點意見"},{"start":14250.6,"end":14252.6,"text":"那一併的來列入"},{"start":14252.94,"end":14254.94,"text":"好這部分我們就先保留"},{"start":14255.25,"end":14257.25,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14258.93,"end":14260.93,"text":"第二條條文"},{"start":14260.93,"end":14262.93,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":14262.93,"end":14264.93,"text":"的提案"},{"start":14264.93,"end":14266.93,"text":"也看到有國民黨黨團的提案"},{"start":14266.93,"end":14268.93,"text":"第十七條"},{"start":14268.93,"end":14270.93,"text":"等三十四個提案以及委員"},{"start":14270.93,"end":14272.93,"text":"羅提瑋柯志恩等人所提修正動議"},{"start":14275.81,"end":14277.81,"text":"第二十條"},{"start":14279.17,"end":14281.17,"text":"好我們請委員"},{"start":14280.72,"end":14282.72,"text":"陳秀白委員請發言"},{"start":14285.11,"end":14287.11,"text":"這個二十條的部分"},{"start":14287.11,"end":14289.11,"text":"對應到我自己的版本是第十五條"},{"start":14289.11,"end":14291.11,"text":"但我對教育部的這個建議條"},{"start":14291.11,"end":14293.11,"text":"我是沒有什麼意見"},{"start":14293.11,"end":14295.11,"text":"但我這邊要表達一下說"},{"start":14295.11,"end":14297.11,"text":"相關的團體我這邊有接到他們的反應"},{"start":14297.11,"end":14299.11,"text":"就是希望在校園食材登錄平台"},{"start":14299.11,"end":14301.11,"text":"可以提供相關統計"},{"start":14301.11,"end":14303.11,"text":"的資料"},{"start":14303.11,"end":14305.11,"text":"例如營養食人數"},{"start":14305.11,"end":14307.11,"text":"餐費食用食材統計"},{"start":14307.11,"end":14309.11,"text":"讓關心學校飲食狀況的民眾"},{"start":14309.11,"end":14311.11,"text":"可以看到目前學校"},{"start":14311.11,"end":14313.11,"text":"飲食的這個整個的狀況"},{"start":14313.11,"end":14315.11,"text":"那之前裴委員在主辦的座談會上面"},{"start":14315.11,"end":14317.11,"text":"國教署有代表說"},{"start":14317.11,"end":14319.11,"text":"在一百一十六年"},{"start":14319.11,"end":14321.11,"text":"平台升級之後可以上線"},{"start":14321.11,"end":14323.11,"text":"我想知道一下說"},{"start":14323.11,"end":14325.11,"text":"目前這個一百一十六年平台升級之後"},{"start":14325.11,"end":14327.11,"text":"上線的這個期程是這樣"},{"start":14327.11,"end":14329.11,"text":"還是說是可以提早的"},{"start":14329.11,"end":14331.11,"text":"以上"},{"start":14331.09,"end":14333.09,"text":"好 還有沒有委員要發言"},{"start":14333.09,"end":14335.09,"text":"好 國際委員"},{"start":14335.98,"end":14337.98,"text":"好 布板的第二十條"},{"start":14337.98,"end":14339.98,"text":"對應到我的版本是第十六條"},{"start":14339.98,"end":14341.98,"text":"就是強制在公開的平台"},{"start":14341.98,"end":14343.98,"text":"登載這個食材跟供應商的一些資訊"},{"start":14343.98,"end":14345.98,"text":"那我也傳達一下"},{"start":14345.98,"end":14347.98,"text":"這個許多家長的擔心"},{"start":14347.98,"end":14349.98,"text":"我想這個部分的這個行政作業"},{"start":14349.98,"end":14351.98,"text":"其實對家長來說"},{"start":14351.98,"end":14353.98,"text":"其實是非常重要的一個透明的交代"},{"start":14353.98,"end":14355.98,"text":"那透過一些"},{"start":14355.98,"end":14357.98,"text":"科技的管理讓所有人能夠及時的"},{"start":14357.98,"end":14359.98,"text":"把這個午餐的一個內容跟過敏原"},{"start":14359.98,"end":14361.98,"text":"從源頭來確保這個食材"},{"start":14361.98,"end":14363.98,"text":"的一個可靠的來源"},{"start":14363.98,"end":14365.98,"text":"那這個部分也是對應到"},{"start":14365.98,"end":14367.98,"text":"目前大家希望的"},{"start":14367.98,"end":14369.98,"text":"能夠有一些這個"},{"start":14369.98,"end":14371.98,"text":"資訊跟這樣子的一個"},{"start":14371.98,"end":14373.98,"text":"落實"},{"start":14373.98,"end":14375.98,"text":"那就針對以上來做表示"},{"start":14375.98,"end":14377.98,"text":"意見 那這個布板的"},{"start":14377.98,"end":14379.98,"text":"條文內容其實我沒有太大意見"},{"start":14379.98,"end":14381.98,"text":"好 以上"},{"start":14385.02,"end":14387.02,"text":"來 吳佩儀委員"},{"start":14387.02,"end":14389.02,"text":"這個修正動議比布板的內容"},{"start":14389.02,"end":14391.02,"text":"是多了滿多項的"},{"start":14391.02,"end":14393.02,"text":"那我這樣看起來有一些"},{"start":14393.02,"end":14395.02,"text":"應該是已經在做的"},{"start":14395.02,"end":14397.02,"text":"所以是等會可以請國教署說明說"},{"start":14397.02,"end":14399.02,"text":"哪些 其實現行就已經在辦理的"},{"start":14399.02,"end":14401.02,"text":"那如果已經現行"},{"start":14401.02,"end":14403.02,"text":"就已經在辦理的還有沒有必要"},{"start":14403.02,"end":14405.02,"text":"一定要寫到這個法條裡面來"},{"start":14405.02,"end":14407.02,"text":"我覺得可以討論 那剛剛前面"},{"start":14407.02,"end":14409.02,"text":"有幾點保留的 是不是"},{"start":14409.02,"end":14411.02,"text":"如果國教署 如果教育部這邊"},{"start":14411.02,"end":14413.02,"text":"如果你們有建議修改的文字"},{"start":14413.02,"end":14415.02,"text":"要不要就是先提供"},{"start":14415.02,"end":14417.02,"text":"等一下回來比較好討論呢"},{"start":14417.46,"end":14419.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14419.89,"end":14421.89,"text":"好 那教育部是不是"},{"start":14421.89,"end":14423.89,"text":"蔡市長委員請說"},{"start":14425.74,"end":14427.74,"text":"對於"},{"start":14427.74,"end":14429.74,"text":"第20條 這個教育部的一個"},{"start":14429.74,"end":14431.74,"text":"版本 第一"},{"start":14431.74,"end":14433.74,"text":"第一款 那我在這裡"},{"start":14433.74,"end":14435.74,"text":"再把"},{"start":14435.74,"end":14437.74,"text":"再細緻化一點 學校在辦理"},{"start":14437.74,"end":14439.74,"text":"學校的工商 應該"},{"start":14439.74,"end":14441.74,"text":"從中央主管機關"},{"start":14441.74,"end":14443.74,"text":"指定的一個公開資訊"},{"start":14443.74,"end":14445.74,"text":"系統平台來"},{"start":14445.74,"end":14447.74,"text":"登載當日工商所使用的"},{"start":14447.74,"end":14449.74,"text":"一個 全部的一個食材"},{"start":14449.74,"end":14451.74,"text":"跟原料之品項"},{"start":14451.74,"end":14453.74,"text":"那供應商呢 及其他的一個"},{"start":14453.74,"end":14455.74,"text":"中央主管機關公告的"},{"start":14455.74,"end":14457.74,"text":"資訊呢 屬加工"},{"start":14457.74,"end":14459.74,"text":"食品的包裝食品"},{"start":14459.74,"end":14461.74,"text":"後調味料者"},{"start":14461.74,"end":14463.74,"text":"並應該呢 要登載"},{"start":14463.74,"end":14465.74,"text":"在商品及名稱的一個製造商"},{"start":14465.74,"end":14467.74,"text":"既有呢"},{"start":14467.74,"end":14469.74,"text":"驗證或素顏標章者"},{"start":14469.74,"end":14471.74,"text":"應該呢 要都要"},{"start":14471.74,"end":14473.74,"text":"登載"},{"start":14473.74,"end":14475.74,"text":"該標章的一個資訊"},{"start":14475.74,"end":14477.74,"text":"那在這個平台呢 事實上"},{"start":14477.74,"end":14479.74,"text":"有很多家長是非常肯定的"},{"start":14479.74,"end":14481.74,"text":"但是呢 我們"},{"start":14481.74,"end":14483.74,"text":"希望能夠"},{"start":14483.74,"end":14485.74,"text":"更細緻的把一些"},{"start":14485.74,"end":14487.74,"text":"比較重要的一些"},{"start":14487.74,"end":14489.74,"text":"品項能夠再把它加進來"},{"start":14489.74,"end":14491.74,"text":"讓這一個平台能夠"},{"start":14491.74,"end":14493.74,"text":"更完善 以上"},{"start":14496.25,"end":14498.25,"text":"好 那請教育部回應好嗎"},{"start":14499.17,"end":14501.17,"text":"蘇彬瑋也要講話嗎"},{"start":14501.17,"end":14503.17,"text":"你用眼神在跟我舉手喔"},{"start":14503.17,"end":14505.17,"text":"來 請說"},{"start":14505.38,"end":14507.38,"text":"好 因為我們看到"},{"start":14507.38,"end":14509.38,"text":"教育部在辦理學校"},{"start":14509.38,"end":14511.38,"text":"我站到 事實上現在都有像"},{"start":14511.38,"end":14513.38,"text":"包括三張一度 還有每天的"},{"start":14513.38,"end":14515.38,"text":"他們的工藝的食材"},{"start":14515.38,"end":14517.38,"text":"其實都有放上去啦"},{"start":14517.38,"end":14519.38,"text":"那更重要的是說"},{"start":14519.38,"end":14521.38,"text":"也是因為有這樣的一個機制"},{"start":14521.38,"end":14523.38,"text":"現在 剛剛"},{"start":14523.38,"end":14525.38,"text":"就一個多月前爆發的"},{"start":14525.38,"end":14527.38,"text":"石油 毒油的"},{"start":14527.38,"end":14529.38,"text":"那個危機的時候呢"},{"start":14529.38,"end":14531.38,"text":"我們看到那個次長他也很快的說明"},{"start":14531.38,"end":14533.38,"text":"就已經都掌握了他們現在的下游的"},{"start":14533.38,"end":14535.38,"text":"所以我想這件事情是非常好的"},{"start":14535.38,"end":14537.38,"text":"那當然也是希望說"},{"start":14537.38,"end":14539.38,"text":"這個制度能夠再繼續的維持下去"},{"start":14539.38,"end":14541.38,"text":"那只是說我想"},{"start":14541.38,"end":14543.38,"text":"因為我們民眾黨跟國民黨"},{"start":14543.38,"end":14545.38,"text":"有提前在修正的動議"},{"start":14545.38,"end":14547.38,"text":"是不是在這個內容上面呢"},{"start":14547.38,"end":14549.38,"text":"我們在檢視之後"},{"start":14549.38,"end":14551.38,"text":"再可能就"},{"start":14551.38,"end":14553.38,"text":"他是非常完整的"},{"start":14553.89,"end":14555.89,"text":"精簡為要 他算是一個"},{"start":14555.89,"end":14557.89,"text":"營養午餐的一個專把的基本法"},{"start":14557.89,"end":14559.89,"text":"能夠再把它更精簡的話"},{"start":14559.89,"end":14561.89,"text":"把它落實"},{"start":14561.89,"end":14563.89,"text":"我想 可以達到他最大的目的"},{"start":14563.89,"end":14565.89,"text":"就是我今天這樣發言的一個目標"},{"start":14565.89,"end":14567.89,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14568.18,"end":14570.18,"text":"好"},{"start":14569.28,"end":14571.28,"text":"安門委員有其他建議"},{"start":14571.28,"end":14573.28,"text":"沒有我們請教一部回應"},{"start":14573.28,"end":14575.28,"text":"剛剛劉委員講到精簡為要"},{"start":14575.28,"end":14577.28,"text":"所以其實"},{"start":14577.28,"end":14579.28,"text":"我們的目前第20條的寫法"},{"start":14579.28,"end":14581.28,"text":"就是大部分"},{"start":14581.28,"end":14583.28,"text":"能做的"},{"start":14582.51,"end":14584.51,"text":"然後在相關應做的"},{"start":14584.51,"end":14586.51,"text":"我們都全部包納在內"},{"start":14586.51,"end":14588.51,"text":"用比較精簡的條文"},{"start":14588.51,"end":14590.51,"text":"就處理我們要的"},{"start":14590.51,"end":14592.51,"text":"但是有一些很操作的"},{"start":14592.51,"end":14594.51,"text":"我們建議 其實今天這樣"},{"start":14594.51,"end":14596.51,"text":"要檢視的話"},{"start":14596.51,"end":14598.51,"text":"一時之間 我舉個例子 我要分享跟大家報告"},{"start":14598.51,"end":14600.51,"text":"也不容許這個時間"},{"start":14600.51,"end":14602.51,"text":"像我們現在跟衛福部相關的"},{"start":14602.51,"end":14604.51,"text":"Tipson"},{"start":14604.51,"end":14606.51,"text":"或是有關的"},{"start":14606.51,"end":14608.51,"text":"飛登不可 飛察不可等等"},{"start":14608.51,"end":14610.51,"text":"飛機不可 其實都有在相連結"},{"start":14610.51,"end":14612.51,"text":"那也有一些爬蟲的機制在處理"},{"start":14612.51,"end":14614.51,"text":"但是因為這些細節"},{"start":14614.51,"end":14616.51,"text":"大概我覺得在這裡說"},{"start":14616.51,"end":14618.51,"text":"就會多餘 因為他已經在操作中"},{"start":14618.51,"end":14620.51,"text":"就如剛才我伯爺"},{"start":14620.51,"end":14622.51,"text":"伯爺所提到 其實有一些已經在運作中"},{"start":14622.51,"end":14624.51,"text":"那我就不在這邊特別講細節"},{"start":14624.51,"end":14626.51,"text":"但有一些如果真要規範"},{"start":14626.51,"end":14628.51,"text":"其實我們可以放到紙法"},{"start":14628.51,"end":14630.51,"text":"包含事情細則這樣好不好"},{"start":14630.51,"end":14632.51,"text":"那母法我們是不是"},{"start":14632.51,"end":14634.51,"text":"盡量把大的方向"},{"start":14634.51,"end":14636.51,"text":"讓委員會這邊同意"},{"start":14636.51,"end":14638.51,"text":"那有一些細節 容我們在操作面"},{"start":14638.51,"end":14640.51,"text":"跟委辦團隊 衛福部等等"},{"start":14640.51,"end":14642.51,"text":"甚至中央的食安辦"},{"start":14642.51,"end":14644.51,"text":"以及地方政府"},{"start":14644.51,"end":14646.51,"text":"大家來做一個專業的處理"},{"start":14646.51,"end":14648.51,"text":"這是第一大點"},{"start":14648.51,"end":14650.51,"text":"就目前我們看到條文"},{"start":14650.51,"end":14652.51,"text":"原來我們寫兩項 目前看起來才超過五項"},{"start":14652.51,"end":14654.51,"text":"看是不是可以朝這樣的一個建議"},{"start":14654.51,"end":14656.51,"text":"另外"},{"start":14657.35,"end":14659.35,"text":"剛剛有幾個像陳委員"},{"start":14659.66,"end":14661.66,"text":"都有提到說"},{"start":14662.18,"end":14664.18,"text":"有聽到我們做這個"},{"start":14664.18,"end":14666.18,"text":"我們的食材通路平台"},{"start":14666.18,"end":14668.18,"text":"會做一點"},{"start":14667.73,"end":14669.73,"text":"公布的處理"},{"start":14669.73,"end":14671.73,"text":"像營養師人數參費"},{"start":14671.73,"end":14673.73,"text":"現在115學年之後"},{"start":14673.73,"end":14675.73,"text":"因為有新的一個局面"},{"start":14675.73,"end":14677.73,"text":"各縣市提供了免費午餐之後"},{"start":14677.73,"end":14679.73,"text":"有很多的工作"},{"start":14679.73,"end":14681.73,"text":"我們會予以統計"},{"start":14681.73,"end":14683.73,"text":"然後公告這些訊息"},{"start":14683.73,"end":14685.73,"text":"讓全民一起來了解"},{"start":14685.73,"end":14687.73,"text":"這個的確會在我們那裡面"},{"start":14687.73,"end":14689.73,"text":"會在115學年來處理完成"},{"start":14688.39,"end":14690.39,"text":"至於郭委員感謝來支持"},{"start":14690.39,"end":14692.39,"text":"我們也會照郭委員平時"},{"start":14692.39,"end":14694.39,"text":"一直監督的面向來落實"},{"start":14694.39,"end":14696.39,"text":"剛剛輝宇委員有提到說"},{"start":14696.39,"end":14698.39,"text":"前面如果有提到"},{"start":14698.39,"end":14700.39,"text":"不要這麼"},{"start":14700.39,"end":14702.39,"text":"可以先明確的免得忘了"},{"start":14702.39,"end":14704.39,"text":"可以做一點比較明確的說明"},{"start":14704.39,"end":14706.39,"text":"像剛剛有一條"},{"start":14706.39,"end":14708.39,"text":"剛剛有跟召委"},{"start":14710,"end":14712,"text":"報告最後一句"},{"start":14712,"end":14714,"text":"第19條"},{"start":14715.28,"end":14717.28,"text":"第19條最後一句"},{"start":14717.28,"end":14719.28,"text":"是不是啊"},{"start":14718.57,"end":14720.57,"text":"就把那個主詞"},{"start":14721.39,"end":14723.39,"text":"原來第二項的主詞是學校"},{"start":14723.39,"end":14725.39,"text":"這個衝擊學校"},{"start":14725.39,"end":14727.39,"text":"他也沒辦法那個判斷"},{"start":14727.39,"end":14729.39,"text":"是不是事權統一"},{"start":14729.39,"end":14731.39,"text":"就衛生主管機關"},{"start":14730.05,"end":14732.05,"text":"他來救衛生主管機關"},{"start":14732.05,"end":14734.05,"text":"救情節重大什麼的"},{"start":14734.05,"end":14736.05,"text":"他可以通知"},{"start":14735.79,"end":14737.79,"text":"他的該校的主管機關"},{"start":14737.79,"end":14739.79,"text":"就是教育局"},{"start":14739.79,"end":14741.79,"text":"就衛生主管機關統籌事權"},{"start":14741.79,"end":14743.79,"text":"發現比較嚴重的問題"},{"start":14743.79,"end":14745.79,"text":"要趕快橫向跟教育局講"},{"start":14745.79,"end":14747.79,"text":"那個事權也統一"},{"start":14747.79,"end":14749.79,"text":"然後要達到召委的這個要求"},{"start":14749.79,"end":14751.79,"text":"也有人做"},{"start":14751.79,"end":14753.79,"text":"也不至於讓學校無法判斷"},{"start":14753.79,"end":14755.79,"text":"沒關係那你又回到"},{"start":14755.79,"end":14757.79,"text":"提到19條了嘛對不對"},{"start":14757.79,"end":14759.79,"text":"那所以"},{"start":14759.79,"end":14761.79,"text":"郭委員在議程上說要處理"},{"start":14761.79,"end":14763.79,"text":"沒有我尊重嘛"},{"start":14763.79,"end":14765.79,"text":"那要不要回到19條"},{"start":14765.79,"end":14767.79,"text":"讓他提出文字給你看"},{"start":14767.79,"end":14769.79,"text":"就如說前面的"},{"start":14769.79,"end":14771.79,"text":"如果你們有建議文字是不是先出來"},{"start":14771.79,"end":14773.79,"text":"我們等一下回過頭來的時候比較好討論"},{"start":14773.79,"end":14775.79,"text":"那你們先寫好不好"},{"start":14775.79,"end":14777.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14778.48,"end":14780.48,"text":"好那第20條的部分"},{"start":14780.48,"end":14782.48,"text":"現場委員有沒有提案"},{"start":14783.56,"end":14785.56,"text":"有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":14788.96,"end":14790.96,"text":"第20條"},{"start":14794.78,"end":14796.78,"text":"好那"},{"start":14801.03,"end":14803.03,"text":"我們就"},{"start":14802.56,"end":14804.56,"text":"我個人是覺得跟我的版本差很多"},{"start":14806.17,"end":14808.17,"text":"所以我是希望說能夠保留"},{"start":14811.13,"end":14813.13,"text":"村長委員你覺得呢"},{"start":14813.75,"end":14815.75,"text":"村長委員麻煩你們拿麥克風謝謝"},{"start":14817.8,"end":14819.8,"text":"同意保留"},{"start":14819.91,"end":14821.91,"text":"呃"},{"start":14821.21,"end":14823.21,"text":"也請大家的同意"},{"start":14823.21,"end":14825.21,"text":"因為我們各自的見解建議不多"},{"start":14825.21,"end":14827.21,"text":"我個人同意保留"},{"start":14827.21,"end":14829.21,"text":"我也要問其他委員"},{"start":14829.21,"end":14831.21,"text":"那請中醫部這邊"},{"start":14831.21,"end":14833.21,"text":"你們也提建議修改的文字"},{"start":14833.21,"end":14835.21,"text":"你們有建議修改文字嗎"},{"start":14835.21,"end":14837.21,"text":"如果你們有建議修改文字就來討論"},{"start":14837.21,"end":14839.21,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":14839.18,"end":14841.18,"text":"好謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":14841.18,"end":14843.18,"text":"目前因為這個委員所提的那個"},{"start":14843.18,"end":14845.18,"text":"20條的部分"},{"start":14845.18,"end":14847.18,"text":"因為有一些"},{"start":14847.18,"end":14849.18,"text":"要去判斷或是跟委員說明說"},{"start":14849.18,"end":14851.18,"text":"其實已經有在做的喔"},{"start":14851.18,"end":14853.18,"text":"然後有一些要細細的檢視"},{"start":14853.18,"end":14855.18,"text":"包含像加工品"},{"start":14855.18,"end":14857.18,"text":"或是調味料"},{"start":14857.18,"end":14859.18,"text":"這一些可能都要"},{"start":14859.18,"end":14861.18,"text":"有一些整體的"},{"start":14861.18,"end":14863.18,"text":"地方政府的包含有些"},{"start":14863.18,"end":14865.18,"text":"工作人員要登載"},{"start":14865.18,"end":14867.18,"text":"可能要細細的跟委員報告說"},{"start":14867.18,"end":14869.18,"text":"六班的學校的人或很多學校"},{"start":14869.18,"end":14871.18,"text":"他做得到這一些嗎"},{"start":14871.18,"end":14873.18,"text":"這一些可能理想上"},{"start":14873.18,"end":14875.18,"text":"我們希望怎樣"},{"start":14875.18,"end":14877.18,"text":"但是食物工作者可能我們也要"},{"start":14877.18,"end":14879.18,"text":"尊重他們工作的辛苦"},{"start":14879.95,"end":14881.95,"text":"這個我先保留啦"},{"start":14881.95,"end":14883.95,"text":"教育部今天寫的出來"},{"start":14883.95,"end":14885.95,"text":"就今天啦"},{"start":14885.95,"end":14887.95,"text":"不行的話我們就到時候"},{"start":14887.95,"end":14889.95,"text":"院會協商的時候我還是會以尊重的角度"},{"start":14889.95,"end":14891.95,"text":"因為我們也不敢說搶過"},{"start":14891.95,"end":14893.95,"text":"到時候地方也會有一些"},{"start":14893.95,"end":14895.95,"text":"無法實行的部分"},{"start":14895.95,"end":14897.95,"text":"好20條"},{"start":14898.43,"end":14900.43,"text":"保留"},{"start":14900.35,"end":14902.35,"text":"第21條"},{"start":14904.3,"end":14906.3,"text":"學校辦我的版本是學校辦理"},{"start":14906.3,"end":14908.3,"text":"學校午餐之收支應設專戶"},{"start":14908.3,"end":14910.3,"text":"專管專用其收支保管運用"},{"start":14910.3,"end":14912.3,"text":"其適用之會計法的相關"},{"start":14912.3,"end":14914.3,"text":"規定辦理學校"},{"start":14914.3,"end":14916.3,"text":"應於每學期結束後兩個月內"},{"start":14916.3,"end":14918.3,"text":"將學校午餐收支明細公佈"},{"start":14918.3,"end":14920.3,"text":"在學校網站"},{"start":14920.3,"end":14922.3,"text":"跟主管機關指定的網站"},{"start":14922.3,"end":14924.3,"text":"跟系統這部分不知道"},{"start":14925.6,"end":14927.6,"text":"教育部可以嗎"},{"start":14927.6,"end":14929.6,"text":"這個很單純"},{"start":14932.3,"end":14934.3,"text":"21條"},{"start":14933.43,"end":14935.43,"text":"郭新聞人"},{"start":14935.67,"end":14937.67,"text":"好這21條就是對應到"},{"start":14937.67,"end":14940.67,"text":"我剛剛其實有在前面提到第14條的第二項"},{"start":14940.67,"end":14943.67,"text":"就是學校辦理公餐應成立專戶"},{"start":14943.67,"end":14945.67,"text":"其收支帳戶處理"},{"start":14945.67,"end":14947.67,"text":"依會計法及相關規定辦理"},{"start":14947.67,"end":14949.67,"text":"收支明細應至少"},{"start":14949.67,"end":14951.67,"text":"於每學期結束後"},{"start":14951.67,"end":14953.67,"text":"兩個月內公告之"},{"start":14953.67,"end":14955.67,"text":"那就是"},{"start":14955.67,"end":14957.67,"text":"這個部分剛剛其實"},{"start":14957.67,"end":14959.67,"text":"這個署長有特別提到是一致的"},{"start":14959.67,"end":14961.67,"text":"好以上"},{"start":14961.34,"end":14963.34,"text":"好我們配一位人"},{"start":14963.48,"end":14965.48,"text":"這一條我看起來教育部"},{"start":14965.48,"end":14967.48,"text":"跟這個修正動議題"},{"start":14967.48,"end":14969.48,"text":"版本內容是差不多"},{"start":14969.48,"end":14971.48,"text":"因為我沒有意見"},{"start":14972.97,"end":14974.97,"text":"啊"},{"start":14976.96,"end":14978.96,"text":"陳委員我們簡單"},{"start":14978.96,"end":14980.96,"text":"簡單回應就好"},{"start":14980.96,"end":14982.96,"text":"我同意剛剛我們召委員"},{"start":14982.96,"end":14984.96,"text":"提了把這個21條"},{"start":14984.96,"end":14986.96,"text":"在細"},{"start":14986.96,"end":14988.96,"text":"細項再用兩項來做一個"},{"start":14988.96,"end":14990.96,"text":"說明"},{"start":14990.96,"end":14992.96,"text":"同意我們那個羅召委的一個"},{"start":14992.96,"end":14994.96,"text":"說明"},{"start":14994.96,"end":14996.96,"text":"那教育部你覺得呢"},{"start":14996.96,"end":14998.96,"text":"還是要照你的版本嗎"},{"start":14998.96,"end":15000.96,"text":"原來我們的最後那個"},{"start":15000.96,"end":15002.96,"text":"網際網路是"},{"start":15002.96,"end":15004.96,"text":"啊"},{"start":15004.79,"end":15006.79,"text":"他去融合可以是學校的網站"},{"start":15006.79,"end":15008.79,"text":"也可以是主管機關"},{"start":15008.79,"end":15010.79,"text":"指定的網站"},{"start":15010.79,"end":15012.79,"text":"總之他要公開"},{"start":15012.79,"end":15014.79,"text":"那現在委員就是直接"},{"start":15014.79,"end":15016.79,"text":"把他寫出來啦"},{"start":15016.79,"end":15018.79,"text":"他可能是放在自己的網站"},{"start":15018.79,"end":15020.79,"text":"也可能是放在主管機關的網站這樣而已"},{"start":15020.79,"end":15022.79,"text":"那我們原來是整理自各位委員的"},{"start":15022.79,"end":15024.79,"text":"大概是這樣"},{"start":15024.79,"end":15026.79,"text":"那我們微調一下好不好"},{"start":15026.79,"end":15028.79,"text":"就是你的基底網際網路四個字刪掉"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15031.36,"text":"然後改成公告之"},{"start":15031.36,"end":15033.36,"text":"主管機關指定之"},{"start":15033.36,"end":15035.36,"text":"網站或系統"},{"start":15035.96,"end":15037.96,"text":"好吧"},{"start":15037.82,"end":15039.82,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":15039.18,"end":15041.18,"text":"還是直接"},{"start":15041.18,"end":15043.18,"text":"委員你講我的意思是"},{"start":15043.18,"end":15045.18,"text":"你的版本嗎"},{"start":15044.53,"end":15046.53,"text":"先刪掉網際網路四個字"},{"start":15046.53,"end":15048.53,"text":"但是你這個會少掉學校自己"},{"start":15048.53,"end":15050.53,"text":"公開到他的網站就好"},{"start":15050.53,"end":15052.53,"text":"那學校網際網路刪掉"},{"start":15052.53,"end":15054.53,"text":"然後我們打上"},{"start":15054.53,"end":15058.53,"text":"學校網站或主管機關指定之網站或系統"},{"start":15059.53,"end":15061.53,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":15062.86,"end":15064.86,"text":"好來"},{"start":15064.86,"end":15066.86,"text":"我們再唸一次喔"},{"start":15066.86,"end":15068.86,"text":"公開於學校網站"},{"start":15069.71,"end":15071.71,"text":"沒有其實"},{"start":15072.75,"end":15074.75,"text":"前面比較像他的人"},{"start":15074.75,"end":15076.75,"text":"因為我沒有寫"},{"start":15076.75,"end":15078.75,"text":"正合正合"},{"start":15078.75,"end":15080.75,"text":"我們依教育部的基底"},{"start":15080.75,"end":15082.75,"text":"公開於學校網站或"},{"start":15084.14,"end":15086.14,"text":"主管機關指定之網站"},{"start":15088.59,"end":15090.59,"text":"或系統"},{"start":15090.28,"end":15092.28,"text":"或系統"},{"start":15094.18,"end":15096.18,"text":"好我們照這樣子的文字"},{"start":15096.18,"end":15098.18,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":15100.81,"end":15105.81,"text":"第21條學校1第8條第一項規定之方式辦理學校午餐"},{"start":15105.81,"end":15108.81,"text":"因成立專務其收支帳戶處理"},{"start":15108.81,"end":15110.81,"text":"依會計法及相關規定辦理"},{"start":15110.81,"end":15118.81,"text":"收支明細因至少每學期結束後兩個月公開於學校網站或主管機關指定之網站或系統"},{"start":15120.23,"end":15122.23,"text":"好修正通過"},{"start":15126.41,"end":15128.41,"text":"好第22條"},{"start":15128.28,"end":15130.28,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15130.28,"end":15132.28,"text":"第21條"},{"start":15131.91,"end":15133.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15133.91,"end":15135.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15135.91,"end":15137.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15137.91,"end":15139.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15139.91,"end":15141.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15141.91,"end":15143.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15143.91,"end":15145.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15145.91,"end":15147.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15147.91,"end":15149.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15149.91,"end":15151.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15151.91,"end":15153.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15153.91,"end":15155.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15155.91,"end":15157.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15157.91,"end":15159.91,"text":"台灣民眾黨團體案"},{"start":15137.26,"end":15139.26,"text":"那這個部分我也要跟所有的委員特別報告"},{"start":15140.55,"end":15144.55,"text":"本條我建立的這樣子的一個情況有稍微增加一些啦"},{"start":15144.55,"end":15146.55,"text":"那是因為希望我說"},{"start":15146.55,"end":15148.55,"text":"我們不要只有處罰"},{"start":15148.55,"end":15150.55,"text":"處罰當然一定沒問題"},{"start":15150.55,"end":15152.55,"text":"重罰都沒問題"},{"start":15152.55,"end":15154.55,"text":"但是我們也希望有相關的機校獎勵"},{"start":15154.55,"end":15156.55,"text":"或者是責任認定的一個機制"},{"start":15156.55,"end":15158.55,"text":"所以這個部分呢"},{"start":15158.55,"end":15160.55,"text":"我想我也在提到"},{"start":15160.55,"end":15162.55,"text":"有關於主管機關"},{"start":15162.55,"end":15164.55,"text":"辦理學校午餐"},{"start":15164.55,"end":15166.55,"text":"飲食"},{"start":15166.55,"end":15168.55,"text":"教育食農教育"},{"start":15168.55,"end":15170.55,"text":"機校優良之學校"},{"start":15170.55,"end":15172.55,"text":"機關機構團體"},{"start":15172.55,"end":15176.55,"text":"廠商或人員得以獎勵"},{"start":15176.55,"end":15180.55,"text":"學校供應廠商食材供應商或受託工商業者"},{"start":15180.55,"end":15182.55,"text":"違反本條例或依本條例"},{"start":15182.55,"end":15184.55,"text":"授權訂定知法規命令"},{"start":15184.55,"end":15186.55,"text":"至法規者"},{"start":15188.32,"end":15190.32,"text":"主管機關因事勤儉"},{"start":15190.32,"end":15192.32,"text":"違規勤儉"},{"start":15192.32,"end":15194.32,"text":"命其限期改善"},{"start":15194.32,"end":15196.32,"text":"或採取其他必要措施"},{"start":15196.32,"end":15198.32,"text":"限期未改善勤儉重大者"},{"start":15198.32,"end":15200.32,"text":"其相關法令及區域處理署"},{"start":15200.32,"end":15202.32,"text":"第十七條第五項"},{"start":15202.32,"end":15204.32,"text":"或第六項所訂之情形"},{"start":15204.32,"end":15206.32,"text":"依各該規定來辦理"},{"start":15206.32,"end":15208.32,"text":"主管機關或學校認定的學校人員"},{"start":15208.32,"end":15210.32,"text":"辦理本條例四項責任時"},{"start":15210.32,"end":15212.32,"text":"因其職責範圍"},{"start":15212.32,"end":15214.32,"text":"斟酌審酌其"},{"start":15214.32,"end":15216.32,"text":"已禁法定之"},{"start":15216.32,"end":15218.32,"text":"已禁法定之"},{"start":15218.32,"end":15220.32,"text":"職務應有之"},{"start":15220.32,"end":15222.32,"text":"注意義務"},{"start":15222.32,"end":15224.32,"text":"違反義務之情節"},{"start":15224.32,"end":15226.32,"text":"故意或過失可歸則"},{"start":15226.73,"end":15228.73,"text":"程度"},{"start":15227.85,"end":15229.85,"text":"及因果關係"},{"start":15229.85,"end":15231.85,"text":"學校人員一"},{"start":15231.68,"end":15233.68,"text":"以依規定"},{"start":15233.68,"end":15235.68,"text":"旅行通報清查督導"},{"start":15235.86,"end":15237.86,"text":"查核或其他因進義務者"},{"start":15237.86,"end":15239.86,"text":"不得"},{"start":15239.86,"end":15241.86,"text":"僅因食品衛生安全事件"},{"start":15241.86,"end":15243.86,"text":"或其他不利結果"},{"start":15243.86,"end":15245.86,"text":"發生或因廠商供應鏈"},{"start":15245.86,"end":15247.86,"text":"資訊系統或其他非"},{"start":15248.96,"end":15250.96,"text":"其所得控制之事由"},{"start":15250.96,"end":15252.96,"text":"禁與規則"},{"start":15252.96,"end":15254.96,"text":"這部分我想"},{"start":15254.96,"end":15256.96,"text":"文字上很清楚就是說"},{"start":15256.96,"end":15258.96,"text":"我們當然也要審慎的評估"},{"start":15258.96,"end":15260.96,"text":"機關也好"},{"start":15260.96,"end":15262.96,"text":"機構也好 廠商也好"},{"start":15262.96,"end":15264.96,"text":"他相關有沒有因進之職務"},{"start":15264.96,"end":15266.96,"text":"那如果他因進之職務"},{"start":15266.96,"end":15268.96,"text":"那基本上"},{"start":15268.96,"end":15270.96,"text":"我們也應該給予"},{"start":15270.96,"end":15272.96,"text":"一部分的一些"},{"start":15272.96,"end":15274.96,"text":"協助"},{"start":15274.96,"end":15276.96,"text":"那也希望說他審酌有沒有法定"},{"start":15276.96,"end":15278.96,"text":"或職務上的注意義務"},{"start":15278.96,"end":15280.96,"text":"如果有違反"},{"start":15280.96,"end":15282.96,"text":"那當然我們還是要去"},{"start":15282.96,"end":15284.96,"text":"探究這個因果關係"},{"start":15284.96,"end":15286.96,"text":"那也希望說"},{"start":15286.96,"end":15288.96,"text":"可以獲得大家支持 以上"},{"start":15288.96,"end":15290.96,"text":"有沒有其他委員有建議"},{"start":15298.69,"end":15300.69,"text":"我想詢問一下"},{"start":15300.69,"end":15302.69,"text":"因為"},{"start":15302.69,"end":15304.69,"text":"20"},{"start":15304.69,"end":15306.69,"text":"現在是21條 22條"},{"start":15306.69,"end":15308.69,"text":"他就是"},{"start":15308.69,"end":15310.69,"text":"主管機關或者是業者"},{"start":15313.25,"end":15315.25,"text":"那你優良者當然是給他鼓勵"},{"start":15315.25,"end":15317.25,"text":"那不優良者就是"},{"start":15317.25,"end":15319.25,"text":"給他"},{"start":15319.25,"end":15321.25,"text":"一些"},{"start":15321.25,"end":15323.25,"text":"限期改善或是要"},{"start":15323.25,"end":15325.25,"text":"真的不行那有相關法"},{"start":15325.25,"end":15327.25,"text":"的刑罰或者是食品衛生法"},{"start":15327.25,"end":15329.25,"text":"的那些內容就會基礎"},{"start":15329.25,"end":15331.25,"text":"就會去處理"},{"start":15332.47,"end":15334.47,"text":"那如果說"},{"start":15334.47,"end":15336.47,"text":"這個專法等於說是在營養武餐"},{"start":15336.47,"end":15338.47,"text":"下面的 本來就有很多相關的"},{"start":15338.47,"end":15340.47,"text":"執法 那是不是有必要"},{"start":15340.47,"end":15342.47,"text":"要請就像有"},{"start":15342.47,"end":15344.47,"text":"到底要罰多少的"},{"start":15344.47,"end":15346.47,"text":"內容的情形"},{"start":15346.47,"end":15348.47,"text":"因為本來相關法律就"},{"start":15348.47,"end":15350.47,"text":"有了 是不是要"},{"start":15350.47,"end":15352.47,"text":"要這樣子的去把它那麼具體"},{"start":15352.47,"end":15354.47,"text":"迷的呈現出來 是不是合理的"},{"start":15354.47,"end":15356.47,"text":"是不是就依照有相關的"},{"start":15356.47,"end":15358.47,"text":"目前在保留 尤其在食安法"},{"start":15358.47,"end":15360.47,"text":"食安法"},{"start":15360.47,"end":15362.47,"text":"跟契約裡面"},{"start":15362.47,"end":15364.47,"text":"廠商你約的這個部分就有"},{"start":15364.47,"end":15366.47,"text":"呈現出來 我提供這個意見"},{"start":15366.47,"end":15368.47,"text":"或是說請國家署這邊就"},{"start":15368.47,"end":15370.47,"text":"也就相關"},{"start":15370.47,"end":15372.47,"text":"這些事情在處理的時候 目前的相關"},{"start":15372.47,"end":15374.47,"text":"法規 雖然沒有母法 但是已經都有"},{"start":15374.47,"end":15376.47,"text":"在實施的部分 是不是可以做一些"},{"start":15376.47,"end":15378.47,"text":"說明 那我們大家知道說"},{"start":15378.47,"end":15380.47,"text":"目前的實施現狀是不是不足"},{"start":15380.47,"end":15382.47,"text":"還是就真的要必須要在我們這個"},{"start":15382.47,"end":15384.47,"text":"部專法當中把它"},{"start":15385.14,"end":15387.14,"text":"把它立下來"},{"start":15390.57,"end":15392.57,"text":"陳秀寶委員在吳佩儀委員"},{"start":15393.24,"end":15395.24,"text":"謝謝主席 22條在我自己的"},{"start":15395.24,"end":15397.24,"text":"版本裡面 對應是21條 其實我的"},{"start":15397.24,"end":15399.24,"text":"條文跟教育部條文是大同小異"},{"start":15399.24,"end":15401.24,"text":"我也可以支持教育部的"},{"start":15401.24,"end":15403.24,"text":"條文 只是我在想說"},{"start":15403.24,"end":15405.24,"text":"我們辦理學校午餐"},{"start":15405.24,"end":15407.24,"text":"成績比 成校 成校比較優異的"},{"start":15407.24,"end":15409.24,"text":"學校 教育部這邊"},{"start":15409.24,"end":15411.24,"text":"是不是可以考慮收集成校教家"},{"start":15411.24,"end":15413.24,"text":"的案例來提供給各縣市"},{"start":15413.24,"end":15415.24,"text":"學校作為辦理學校飲食的"},{"start":15415.24,"end":15417.24,"text":"依循參考 以上"},{"start":15418.97,"end":15420.97,"text":"其實教育部寫的也"},{"start":15420.97,"end":15422.97,"text":"也是對的啦 沒有錯啦"},{"start":15422.97,"end":15424.97,"text":"只是"},{"start":15424.59,"end":15426.59,"text":"比較文字比較少啦"},{"start":15426.59,"end":15428.59,"text":"我是覺得不夠完善"},{"start":15428.59,"end":15430.59,"text":"我自己個人意見啦"},{"start":15430.59,"end":15432.59,"text":"沒關係啦 但是還是希望能夠"},{"start":15432.59,"end":15434.59,"text":"爭取大家的同意啦"},{"start":15434.59,"end":15436.59,"text":"但如果真的不行的話是不是"},{"start":15436.59,"end":15438.59,"text":"保留大家修改文字 像剛剛這樣子"},{"start":15438.59,"end":15440.59,"text":"整合一下意見 吳佩儀委員"},{"start":15440.59,"end":15442.59,"text":"這一條就是教育部版本"},{"start":15442.59,"end":15444.59,"text":"跟修正動議版本 其實我看起來"},{"start":15444.59,"end":15446.59,"text":"精神是一樣的 精神是"},{"start":15446.59,"end":15448.59,"text":"一致的 就是對辦的好 我們要"},{"start":15448.59,"end":15450.59,"text":"給獎勵 然後也要"},{"start":15450.59,"end":15452.59,"text":"相關的這些機制"},{"start":15452.59,"end":15454.59,"text":"不過因為就是修正動議的版本"},{"start":15454.59,"end":15456.59,"text":"裡面的文字 有一些"},{"start":15456.59,"end":15458.59,"text":"看起來那個主體是學校呢"},{"start":15458.59,"end":15460.59,"text":"還是可能會不會落到"},{"start":15460.59,"end":15462.59,"text":"成半人 我還是會建議說"},{"start":15462.59,"end":15464.59,"text":"這一條是不是以教育部的文字"},{"start":15464.59,"end":15466.59,"text":"為主 因為我們應該是主體是"},{"start":15466.59,"end":15468.59,"text":"學校 我們去規範學校"},{"start":15468.59,"end":15470.59,"text":"然後呢 就是"},{"start":15470.59,"end":15472.59,"text":"也是保障學校去做我們認為"},{"start":15472.59,"end":15474.59,"text":"他們應該要去做的事 所以"},{"start":15474.59,"end":15476.59,"text":"以二十二條教育部文字來說"},{"start":15476.59,"end":15478.59,"text":"就是以學校 如果是"},{"start":15478.59,"end":15480.59,"text":"辦理優異的學校 我們給他獎勵"},{"start":15480.59,"end":15482.59,"text":"那辦理不好的 要去溢儲的時候"},{"start":15482.59,"end":15484.59,"text":"溢儲也是學校"},{"start":15484.59,"end":15486.59,"text":"我是建議以學校為主體"},{"start":15486.59,"end":15488.59,"text":"應該是會比較恰當 因為精神"},{"start":15488.59,"end":15490.59,"text":"看起來是一致的 所以在文字上面"},{"start":15490.59,"end":15492.59,"text":"是不是還是以教育部的版本"},{"start":15492.59,"end":15494.59,"text":"為主 那倘若"},{"start":15494.59,"end":15496.59,"text":"覺得說有不足的地方 看哪些"},{"start":15496.59,"end":15498.59,"text":"再把它修改加進來 這是我的建議"},{"start":15503.25,"end":15505.25,"text":"好 請教育部回應好不好 謝謝"},{"start":15507.36,"end":15509.36,"text":"謝謝趙斐 這些各位委員的指教"},{"start":15509.36,"end":15511.36,"text":"那基本上這個是"},{"start":15511.36,"end":15513.36,"text":"跟地方政府學校有所"},{"start":15513.36,"end":15515.36,"text":"洽商之後 也綜合委員的"},{"start":15515.36,"end":15517.36,"text":"版本 用這樣的一個"},{"start":15517.36,"end":15519.36,"text":"母法的文字跟高度"},{"start":15519.36,"end":15521.36,"text":"比較能夠容納各種"},{"start":15521.36,"end":15523.36,"text":"情勢 那現在委員"},{"start":15523.36,"end":15525.36,"text":"提的這個版本 那可以看到"},{"start":15525.36,"end":15527.36,"text":"到第二項之前跟原來的"},{"start":15527.36,"end":15529.36,"text":"我們的方向"},{"start":15529.36,"end":15531.36,"text":"比較一致 到第三項"},{"start":15531.36,"end":15533.36,"text":"之後就講到人"},{"start":15533.36,"end":15535.36,"text":"就講到人怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":15535.36,"end":15537.36,"text":"這一般而言 其實學校在辦"},{"start":15537.36,"end":15539.36,"text":"這個工作都很辛苦"},{"start":15539.36,"end":15541.36,"text":"我們覺得學校都"},{"start":15541.36,"end":15543.36,"text":"在這個架構內"},{"start":15543.36,"end":15545.36,"text":"完成很多事情"},{"start":15545.36,"end":15547.36,"text":"已經很辛苦 那我們在母法"},{"start":15547.36,"end":15549.36,"text":"特別就人的部分要指明"},{"start":15549.36,"end":15551.36,"text":"怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":15551.36,"end":15553.36,"text":"一般在母法上 然後也看學校"},{"start":15553.36,"end":15555.36,"text":"我們歷來的溝通上"},{"start":15555.36,"end":15557.36,"text":"比較沒有那麼的"},{"start":15557.36,"end":15559.36,"text":"我們也肯定他們的"},{"start":15559.36,"end":15561.36,"text":"付出 比較不這樣子去"},{"start":15561.36,"end":15563.36,"text":"訂定這個母法 那至於有一些"},{"start":15564.27,"end":15566.27,"text":"精神上 我有注意到委員的最後一點"},{"start":15566.27,"end":15568.27,"text":"其實是想說"},{"start":15568.27,"end":15570.27,"text":"有一些不能夠去"},{"start":15570.41,"end":15572.41,"text":"規則 那些辦的人"},{"start":15572.41,"end":15574.41,"text":"這一類可以用"},{"start":15574.41,"end":15576.41,"text":"我們一些行政的指導去處理"},{"start":15576.41,"end":15578.41,"text":"可是寫在母法上 他就會有"},{"start":15578.41,"end":15580.41,"text":"講這件事 他就會顯示"},{"start":15580.41,"end":15582.41,"text":"另外一件事 這有時候會"},{"start":15582.41,"end":15584.41,"text":"對我們這些工作的夥伴"},{"start":15584.41,"end":15586.41,"text":"不好 那至於"},{"start":15586.73,"end":15588.73,"text":"學校要依法來做"},{"start":15588.73,"end":15590.73,"text":"他是一個學校為主體 再來處理"},{"start":15590.73,"end":15592.73,"text":"我們會覺得 就學校部分"},{"start":15592.73,"end":15594.73,"text":"我們來一起跟他互動會比較好"},{"start":15594.73,"end":15596.73,"text":"那以上就22條的"},{"start":15596.73,"end":15598.73,"text":"整個立法的精神跟中間的"},{"start":15598.73,"end":15600.73,"text":"我們怎麼做出這兩條"},{"start":15600.73,"end":15602.73,"text":"項 以及相關的建議"},{"start":15602.73,"end":15604.73,"text":"請召委再"},{"start":15604.73,"end":15606.73,"text":"幫我們做指導 謝謝"},{"start":15606.91,"end":15608.91,"text":"我覺得你講的也沒有錯啦"},{"start":15608.91,"end":15610.91,"text":"那是不是這個部分 如果真的這一條"},{"start":15612.39,"end":15614.39,"text":"你覺得"},{"start":15613.86,"end":15615.86,"text":"可以 但是不要放在裡面"},{"start":15615.86,"end":15617.86,"text":"你把立法說明寫在那邊"},{"start":15618,"end":15620,"text":"大家可以討論了 好不好"},{"start":15620,"end":15622,"text":"那我先保留啦 待會你盡量調整"},{"start":15623.61,"end":15625.61,"text":"那也勞煩我們後勤部隊"},{"start":15625.61,"end":15627.61,"text":"我們所有的同仁 盡量"},{"start":15627.75,"end":15629.75,"text":"調一下"},{"start":15630.72,"end":15632.72,"text":"好 這條保留"},{"start":15640.17,"end":15642.17,"text":"好 第23條"},{"start":15642.17,"end":15644.17,"text":"林建琪等21人提案25條"},{"start":15644.17,"end":15646.17,"text":"等14個提案"},{"start":15646.17,"end":15648.17,"text":"以及委員柯志恩等人"},{"start":15648.17,"end":15650.17,"text":"羅廷瑋所提出的修正動議"},{"start":15650.17,"end":15652.17,"text":"那我的版本就基本上是建立在"},{"start":15652.17,"end":15654.17,"text":"教育部的這個基礎上"},{"start":15654.17,"end":15656.17,"text":"但是我有再增加第二項 同法"},{"start":15656.17,"end":15658.17,"text":"第23條之一規定"},{"start":15658.17,"end":15660.17,"text":"於前項範圍內 至本條例第14條"},{"start":15660.17,"end":15662.17,"text":"施行起"},{"start":15662.17,"end":15664.17,"text":"不再適用"},{"start":15664.17,"end":15666.17,"text":"本條例施行"},{"start":15666.17,"end":15668.17,"text":"依學校衛生法及其"},{"start":15668.17,"end":15670.17,"text":"相關法定規定之法規命令"},{"start":15670.17,"end":15672.17,"text":"行政規則或"},{"start":15672.17,"end":15674.17,"text":"所謂之處分"},{"start":15674.17,"end":15676.17,"text":"企劃之契約"},{"start":15676.17,"end":15678.17,"text":"於不抵觸本條例之範圍內"},{"start":15678.17,"end":15680.17,"text":"繼續有效"},{"start":15680.17,"end":15682.17,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":15682.17,"end":15684.17,"text":"再來中央主管機關因於本條例"},{"start":15684.17,"end":15686.17,"text":"公佈後一年"},{"start":15686.17,"end":15688.17,"text":"完成相關法規命令"},{"start":15688.17,"end":15690.17,"text":"行政規則之檢討 修正"},{"start":15690.17,"end":15692.17,"text":"或廢止"},{"start":15692.17,"end":15694.17,"text":"那這個部分我也是希望定一個"},{"start":15695.54,"end":15697.54,"text":"要求啦 希望說能夠在一年內"},{"start":15697.54,"end":15699.54,"text":"趕緊將"},{"start":15699.27,"end":15701.27,"text":"施行細則來完成"},{"start":15701.63,"end":15703.63,"text":"請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":15705.19,"end":15707.19,"text":"好 各位委員沒有意見喔"},{"start":15707.19,"end":15709.19,"text":"那我們請主管機關回應"},{"start":15710.45,"end":15712.45,"text":"來 你要不要請"},{"start":15715.92,"end":15717.92,"text":"這個"},{"start":15717.51,"end":15719.51,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":15719.51,"end":15721.51,"text":"我們既然在學校"},{"start":15721.51,"end":15723.51,"text":"武參法這部分已經有"},{"start":15723.51,"end":15725.51,"text":"一個規定了"},{"start":15725.51,"end":15727.51,"text":"而且我們也去對過他跟學校"},{"start":15727.51,"end":15729.51,"text":"衛生法"},{"start":15729.51,"end":15731.51,"text":"每一條項的關係"},{"start":15731.51,"end":15733.51,"text":"都已經有"},{"start":15733.51,"end":15735.51,"text":"對應了"},{"start":15735.51,"end":15737.51,"text":"然後另外"},{"start":15737.51,"end":15739.51,"text":"來講就是我們學校"},{"start":15739.51,"end":15741.51,"text":"這個共產法"},{"start":15741.51,"end":15743.51,"text":"立法之後"},{"start":15743.51,"end":15745.51,"text":"的相關執法我們"},{"start":15745.51,"end":15747.51,"text":"授權的一些法規我們都在半年內"},{"start":15747.51,"end":15749.51,"text":"必須要完成"},{"start":15749.51,"end":15751.51,"text":"所以好像沒有必要再"},{"start":15751.51,"end":15753.51,"text":"針對第三項的這個部分"},{"start":15756.86,"end":15758.86,"text":"我尊重教育部啦"},{"start":15758.86,"end":15760.86,"text":"但是我跟委員特別報告喔"},{"start":15760.86,"end":15762.86,"text":"因為第14條是保留"},{"start":15764.1,"end":15766.1,"text":"所以目前還沒有依照原本你們的14條啦"},{"start":15766.1,"end":15768.1,"text":"如果依照"},{"start":15768.1,"end":15770.1,"text":"教育部的14條"},{"start":15770.1,"end":15772.1,"text":"那基本上這裡的23條也要依照教育部的23條"},{"start":15772.1,"end":15774.1,"text":"可是目前14條保留的情況下"},{"start":15774.1,"end":15776.1,"text":"我們不能夠推斷就一定"},{"start":15776.1,"end":15778.1,"text":"都用你們的版本都OK啦"},{"start":15780.48,"end":15782.48,"text":"可能會有些微差距"},{"start":15782.48,"end":15784.48,"text":"可能"},{"start":15784.92,"end":15786.92,"text":"剛剛委員沒有意見嘛"},{"start":15787.5,"end":15789.5,"text":"都還在討論啦"},{"start":15789.5,"end":15791.5,"text":"剛剛委員都沒有意見啦"},{"start":15791.5,"end":15793.5,"text":"我也不敢定案就一定要啦"},{"start":15793.5,"end":15795.5,"text":"所以我們先保留"},{"start":15795.5,"end":15797.5,"text":"那回過頭來再看的時候"},{"start":15797.5,"end":15799.5,"text":"再處理"},{"start":15801.49,"end":15803.49,"text":"好第24條"},{"start":15803.49,"end":15805.49,"text":"台灣民眾黨第"},{"start":15805.49,"end":15807.49,"text":"22條等40個提案以及"},{"start":15807.49,"end":15809.49,"text":"委員羅廷瑋柯志恩等人所提"},{"start":15809.49,"end":15811.49,"text":"修正動議我們看到第24條"},{"start":15812.75,"end":15814.75,"text":"24條基本上就是照"},{"start":15816.06,"end":15818.06,"text":"教育部定制啦"},{"start":15818.06,"end":15820.06,"text":"委員有沒有意見"},{"start":15819.97,"end":15821.97,"text":"沒有意見喔"},{"start":15821.97,"end":15823.97,"text":"我們就照修正通過"},{"start":15823.97,"end":15825.97,"text":"照教育部版本"},{"start":15825.98,"end":15827.98,"text":"好第25條"},{"start":15829.37,"end":15831.37,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":15831.37,"end":15833.37,"text":"23條等40個提案以及"},{"start":15833.37,"end":15835.37,"text":"委員羅廷瑋柯志恩等人所提修正動議"},{"start":15835.37,"end":15837.37,"text":"那"},{"start":15837,"end":15839,"text":"25條的部分呢我們是希望本條例"},{"start":15839,"end":15841,"text":"自公佈後6個月"},{"start":15841,"end":15843,"text":"實行啦"},{"start":15842.38,"end":15844.38,"text":"那第14條第15條"},{"start":15844.38,"end":15846.38,"text":"自公佈後一年實行了"},{"start":15846.38,"end":15848.38,"text":"好那"},{"start":15847.29,"end":15849.29,"text":"教育部的版本是"},{"start":15849.18,"end":15851.18,"text":"本條例除第14條"},{"start":15851.18,"end":15853.18,"text":"自公佈後一年實行"},{"start":15855.46,"end":15857.46,"text":"一年實行外"},{"start":15857.27,"end":15859.27,"text":"自公佈日時實行"},{"start":15859.27,"end":15861.27,"text":"除第14條"},{"start":15861.27,"end":15863.27,"text":"自公佈後一年"},{"start":15863.27,"end":15865.27,"text":"實行外"},{"start":15865.27,"end":15867.27,"text":"自公佈日"},{"start":15867.27,"end":15869.27,"text":"實行"},{"start":15869.27,"end":15871.27,"text":"有點落孔令喔"},{"start":15871.27,"end":15873.27,"text":"那委員的意見"},{"start":15873.08,"end":15875.08,"text":"這個教育部版是說"},{"start":15875.08,"end":15877.08,"text":"除了第14條以外"},{"start":15877.08,"end":15879.08,"text":"其他都是公佈後就實行"},{"start":15879.08,"end":15881.08,"text":"那修正動議是說除了14、15要等一年"},{"start":15881.08,"end":15883.08,"text":"其他呢還要等6個月"},{"start":15883.08,"end":15885.08,"text":"那其實一般應該都是說行政部門"},{"start":15885.08,"end":15887.08,"text":"會比較慢委員提案會比較快"},{"start":15887.08,"end":15889.08,"text":"但這個倒過來其實行政部門是說"},{"start":15889.08,"end":15891.08,"text":"我除了14條以後其他我公佈就要"},{"start":15891.08,"end":15893.08,"text":"實行了那這個我們當然尊重委員提案"},{"start":15893.08,"end":15895.08,"text":"但是等一下請聽一下教育部的意見"},{"start":15895.08,"end":15897.08,"text":"那應該是因為你現在14"},{"start":15897.08,"end":15899.08,"text":"跟這些是連動"},{"start":15899.08,"end":15901.08,"text":"所以剛剛23其實不是我們沒有意見"},{"start":15901.08,"end":15903.08,"text":"所以我們是要聽教育部"},{"start":15903.08,"end":15905.08,"text":"目前的想法"},{"start":15905.08,"end":15907.08,"text":"因為看起來本來你們版本是"},{"start":15907.08,"end":15909.08,"text":"會比較快開始上路"},{"start":15909.08,"end":15911.08,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":15911.08,"end":15913.08,"text":"那不是說不相信"},{"start":15913.08,"end":15915.08,"text":"教育部啦因為他的公佈日"},{"start":15915.08,"end":15917.08,"text":"實行他也沒講公佈日什麼時候"},{"start":15917.08,"end":15919.08,"text":"他也可以講"},{"start":15919.08,"end":15921.08,"text":"3年或5年後我們之前消防法"},{"start":15921.08,"end":15923.08,"text":"就有這個尷尬時間"},{"start":15923.08,"end":15925.08,"text":"尷尬不是誰對誰錯"},{"start":15925.08,"end":15927.08,"text":"尷尬所以"},{"start":15927.08,"end":15929.08,"text":"所以我才會設了一個6個月"},{"start":15929.08,"end":15931.08,"text":"最給你的準備期"},{"start":15931.08,"end":15933.08,"text":"可是你這個還是公佈後6個月"},{"start":15933.08,"end":15935.08,"text":"這樣反而更慢"},{"start":15935.08,"end":15937.08,"text":"應該是公佈後就失效"},{"start":15937.08,"end":15939.08,"text":"沒關係沒關係那所以我們希望"},{"start":15940.07,"end":15942.07,"text":"你待會講完"},{"start":15941.61,"end":15943.61,"text":"這一條你就直接我們來看文字"},{"start":15943.61,"end":15945.61,"text":"來把它處理掉"},{"start":15946.25,"end":15948.25,"text":"我是希望你能夠給我更明確的時間你什麼時候要公佈"},{"start":15950.04,"end":15952.04,"text":"好"},{"start":15952.59,"end":15954.59,"text":"我們不教"},{"start":15955.7,"end":15957.7,"text":"比較有一個安心"},{"start":15958.72,"end":15962.72,"text":"沒有這個法律公佈這個是有規定的"},{"start":15962.72,"end":15964.72,"text":"對但是"},{"start":15964.72,"end":15966.72,"text":"有依照那個公佈"},{"start":15966.72,"end":15968.72,"text":"公佈後3天"},{"start":15968.72,"end":15970.72,"text":"總統公佈後3天"},{"start":15971.58,"end":15973.58,"text":"所以你們基本上是"},{"start":15973.58,"end":15975.58,"text":"就接受只要總統公佈"},{"start":15975.58,"end":15977.58,"text":"你們就開始實行"},{"start":15978.21,"end":15980.21,"text":"因為有把那個特定條文"},{"start":15980.21,"end":15982.21,"text":"特定條文有訂定那個"},{"start":15982.21,"end":15984.21,"text":"施行的日子之外"},{"start":15984.21,"end":15986.21,"text":"其他就是公佈後就施行"},{"start":15986.21,"end":15988.21,"text":"好沒關係有就好"},{"start":15988.77,"end":15990.77,"text":"那我們是不是就照教育部的修正文"},{"start":15990.77,"end":15992.77,"text":"製作過"},{"start":15995.54,"end":15997.54,"text":"只要你們有可以更快我們都支持"},{"start":15997.54,"end":15999.54,"text":"好不好"},{"start":15999.4,"end":16001.4,"text":"署長署長可以嗎"},{"start":16002.46,"end":16004.46,"text":"好就照總統公佈就開始施行"},{"start":16004.46,"end":16006.46,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":16007.22,"end":16011.22,"text":"好第25條本條例除第14條"},{"start":16011.22,"end":16013.22,"text":"自公佈後一年施行外"},{"start":16013.22,"end":16015.22,"text":"自公佈日施行"},{"start":16017.51,"end":16019.51,"text":"OK"},{"start":16018.44,"end":16020.44,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":16019.72,"end":16021.72,"text":"我們就"},{"start":16021.7,"end":16023.7,"text":"照按修正通過"},{"start":16023.7,"end":16025.7,"text":"照教育部文字喔"},{"start":16025.7,"end":16027.7,"text":"那請大家回過頭看剛才暫時保留的第11條"},{"start":16027.7,"end":16029.7,"text":"教育部是否已經將委員關注的"},{"start":16029.7,"end":16031.7,"text":"限職營養師事項"},{"start":16031.7,"end":16033.7,"text":"納入立法說明"},{"start":16033.7,"end":16035.7,"text":"請提出謝謝"},{"start":16044.07,"end":16046.07,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":16045.76,"end":16047.76,"text":"第11條"},{"start":16047.68,"end":16049.68,"text":"來麻煩你是不是要將立法說明說一下"},{"start":16049.68,"end":16051.68,"text":"然後把它打到"},{"start":16055.55,"end":16057.55,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":16056.86,"end":16058.86,"text":"好秀出來一下"},{"start":16058.86,"end":16060.86,"text":"來我們休息三分鐘讓你秀一下"},{"start":16060.86,"end":16062.86,"text":"上個廁所"},{"start":16062.86,"end":16064.86,"text":"立法說明給委員看一下"},{"start":16066.89,"end":16068.89,"text":"還是要印給大家"},{"start":16069.79,"end":16071.79,"text":"都可以"},{"start":16071.79,"end":16073.79,"text":"好放一幕好"},{"start":16073.79,"end":16075.79,"text":"那我們等他執行一下"},{"start":16077.2,"end":16079.2,"text":"有哪些是要保留的"},{"start":16895.89,"end":16897.89,"text":"您是衛福部"},{"start":16897.89,"end":16899.89,"text":"OK"},{"start":16899.26,"end":16901.26,"text":"好我們現在開會"},{"start":16902.35,"end":16904.35,"text":"不好意思因為我們先處理"},{"start":16904.35,"end":16906.35,"text":"11條嘛因為剛剛我有同意"},{"start":16906.35,"end":16908.35,"text":"有這個食藥署"},{"start":16908.35,"end":16910.35,"text":"的官員因為中聯有紙的案"},{"start":16910.35,"end":16912.35,"text":"他們要另外去經濟部開會"},{"start":16912.35,"end":16914.35,"text":"所以他們對於我們第"},{"start":16914.35,"end":16916.35,"text":"18 19條有一個建議"},{"start":16916.35,"end":16918.35,"text":"文字的部分我讓他先"},{"start":16918.35,"end":16920.35,"text":"發言讓他先離席"},{"start":16920.35,"end":16922.35,"text":"因為中聯有紙那個案也蠻重要的"},{"start":16922.35,"end":16924.35,"text":"那待會會讓他先可以離開"},{"start":16924.35,"end":16926.35,"text":"請麥克風"},{"start":16927.68,"end":16929.68,"text":"好針對第18 19的發言"},{"start":16929.68,"end":16931.68,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":16957.68,"end":16959.68,"text":"有危害公參衛生安全之虞"},{"start":16959.68,"end":16961.68,"text":"那要通知這個學校"},{"start":16961.68,"end":16963.68,"text":"之外還要通知各校"},{"start":16963.68,"end":16965.68,"text":"所在的衛生主管機關"},{"start":16965.68,"end":16967.68,"text":"那在這裡跟主席還有各位委員"},{"start":16967.68,"end":16969.68,"text":"報告一下因為這個在我們食安法"},{"start":16969.68,"end":16971.68,"text":"的第七條的第五項裡面"},{"start":16971.68,"end":16973.68,"text":"本來就有這一條食品業者"},{"start":16973.68,"end":16975.68,"text":"在發試驗產品有"},{"start":16975.68,"end":16977.68,"text":"危害衛生安全之虞時"},{"start":16977.68,"end":16979.68,"text":"要主動停止製造加工販賣"},{"start":16979.68,"end":16981.68,"text":"辦理回收而且通報"},{"start":16981.68,"end":16983.68,"text":"縣市"},{"start":16983.68,"end":16985.68,"text":"直轄市縣市的主管機關"},{"start":16985.68,"end":16987.68,"text":"所以這個部分在我們食安法"},{"start":16987.68,"end":16989.68,"text":"裡面已經有很明確的規定了"},{"start":16989.68,"end":16991.68,"text":"所以在這一個部分就是"},{"start":16991.68,"end":16993.68,"text":"有關於通知學校"},{"start":16993.68,"end":16995.68,"text":"所在的衛生主管機關這裡是可以"},{"start":16995.68,"end":16997.68,"text":"不用再重複再寫因為這個"},{"start":16997.68,"end":16999.68,"text":"食材供應商就是我們的"},{"start":16999.68,"end":17001.68,"text":"食安法所規定的食品業者"},{"start":17001.68,"end":17003.68,"text":"那再來後面"},{"start":17003.68,"end":17005.68,"text":"這裡有關的這個"},{"start":17005.68,"end":17007.68,"text":"相關法令要辦理回收"},{"start":17007.68,"end":17009.68,"text":"採取必要措施依法"},{"start":17009.68,"end":17011.68,"text":"辦理封存者呢由"},{"start":17011.68,"end":17013.68,"text":"衛生主管機關辦理這個"},{"start":17013.68,"end":17015.68,"text":"也在我們食安法的"},{"start":17015.68,"end":17017.68,"text":"第41條"},{"start":17017.68,"end":17019.68,"text":"的第"},{"start":17019.68,"end":17021.68,"text":"1項第4款裡面"},{"start":17021.68,"end":17023.68,"text":"對於違反我們"},{"start":17023.68,"end":17025.68,"text":"一些衛生標準或者是"},{"start":17025.68,"end":17027.68,"text":"有毒有害人體健康呢"},{"start":17027.68,"end":17029.68,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":17029.68,"end":17031.68,"text":"衛生主管機關"},{"start":17031.68,"end":17033.68,"text":"得命食品業者"},{"start":17033.68,"end":17035.68,"text":"暫停作業及販賣並"},{"start":17035.68,"end":17037.68,"text":"封存產品所以對於產品的"},{"start":17037.68,"end":17039.68,"text":"封存這個也在我們食安法裡面"},{"start":17039.68,"end":17041.68,"text":"有很明確的規定了"},{"start":17041.68,"end":17043.68,"text":"所以是在建議在這個地方"},{"start":17043.68,"end":17045.68,"text":"也就是可以有規定"},{"start":17045.68,"end":17047.68,"text":"就不用在這裡再重複的"},{"start":17047.68,"end":17049.68,"text":"再寫一次好這個是"},{"start":17049.68,"end":17051.68,"text":"有關於第18條以上說明"},{"start":17051.68,"end":17053.68,"text":"那至於"},{"start":17053.68,"end":17055.68,"text":"在第19條的部分"},{"start":17055.68,"end":17057.68,"text":"那有關於學校就是"},{"start":17057.68,"end":17059.68,"text":"發現這個"},{"start":17059.68,"end":17061.68,"text":"餐盒作業場所有衛生不良情形"},{"start":17061.68,"end":17063.68,"text":"要通知公善作業"},{"start":17063.68,"end":17065.68,"text":"場所的這個衛生主管"},{"start":17065.68,"end":17067.68,"text":"機關依食安法來規定"},{"start":17067.68,"end":17069.68,"text":"來處理這個部分"},{"start":17069.68,"end":17071.68,"text":"也是原來教育部就有的"},{"start":17071.68,"end":17073.68,"text":"版本這個我們沒有意見"},{"start":17073.68,"end":17075.68,"text":"是那至於"},{"start":17075.68,"end":17077.68,"text":"剛才這個有關"},{"start":17077.68,"end":17079.68,"text":"於如果是情節重大"},{"start":17079.68,"end":17081.68,"text":"危害學生健康"},{"start":17081.68,"end":17083.68,"text":"要通知教育主管機關"},{"start":17083.68,"end":17085.68,"text":"剛才國教組這邊是表示希望是"},{"start":17085.68,"end":17087.68,"text":"由地方衛生主管機關"},{"start":17087.68,"end":17089.68,"text":"通知這個"},{"start":17089.68,"end":17091.68,"text":"學校當地的教育主管機關"},{"start":17091.68,"end":17093.68,"text":"我想這個部分可能就是"},{"start":17093.68,"end":17095.68,"text":"要去跟地方要有一個"},{"start":17095.68,"end":17097.68,"text":"比較良好的溝通之後"},{"start":17097.68,"end":17099.68,"text":"再來施行以上說明"},{"start":17099.68,"end":17101.68,"text":"回憶一下我覺得第19條"},{"start":17101.68,"end":17103.68,"text":"尊重國教組的建議"},{"start":17103.68,"end":17105.68,"text":"那由衛生主管機關來處理"},{"start":17105.68,"end":17107.68,"text":"然後通報學校"},{"start":17107.68,"end":17109.68,"text":"讓學校來作為主要的"},{"start":17109.68,"end":17111.68,"text":"派員稽查"},{"start":17111.68,"end":17113.68,"text":"壓力也大到底派誰"},{"start":17113.68,"end":17115.68,"text":"那怎麼執行"},{"start":17115.68,"end":17117.68,"text":"施行細則也很壓力"},{"start":17117.68,"end":17119.68,"text":"很大所以就依照衛生主管機關"},{"start":17119.68,"end":17121.68,"text":"的相關SOP這個部分"},{"start":17121.68,"end":17123.68,"text":"我們也尊重但是我們訴求"},{"start":17123.68,"end":17125.68,"text":"就是一定要有人可以做抽查"},{"start":17126.62,"end":17128.62,"text":"有相關主管機關負責抽查"},{"start":17128.62,"end":17130.62,"text":"19條這個部分我也回應一下"},{"start":17130.62,"end":17132.62,"text":"謝謝我們食藥署的同仁"},{"start":17132.62,"end":17134.62,"text":"那待會您就3點可以先離席"},{"start":17134.62,"end":17136.62,"text":"去這個經濟部那邊處理"},{"start":17136.62,"end":17138.62,"text":"中年遊子相關的議案"},{"start":17144.17,"end":17146.17,"text":"好那待會19條部分我們再回過頭再說"},{"start":17146.17,"end":17148.17,"text":"先回到11條"},{"start":17148.88,"end":17150.88,"text":"好那不好意思那醫事人員請我們要補充宣告"},{"start":17150.88,"end":17152.88,"text":"委員吳思瑤為"},{"start":17154.11,"end":17156.11,"text":"哦"},{"start":17155.36,"end":17157.36,"text":"為客出席本院第11屆第5會"},{"start":17157.36,"end":17159.36,"text":"起本會第22次"},{"start":17159.36,"end":17161.36,"text":"及第23次會議"},{"start":17161.36,"end":17163.36,"text":"特予請假列入公報記錄"},{"start":17165.84,"end":17167.84,"text":"好回到第11條"},{"start":17167.84,"end":17169.84,"text":"來我們繼續討論"},{"start":17175.96,"end":17177.96,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":17177.84,"end":17179.84,"text":"好請下一步說明一下你的立法說明"},{"start":17179.84,"end":17181.84,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":17183.46,"end":17185.46,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":17185.46,"end":17187.46,"text":"那我們請看一下教育部版本的母法"},{"start":17187.46,"end":17189.46,"text":"那母法文字裡面"},{"start":17189.46,"end":17191.46,"text":"有一點是希望"},{"start":17191.46,"end":17193.46,"text":"能夠架接在立法說明"},{"start":17193.46,"end":17195.46,"text":"那一點是"},{"start":17195.46,"end":17197.46,"text":"大家請看文字"},{"start":17197.46,"end":17199.46,"text":"裡面已經有寫了"},{"start":17200.62,"end":17202.62,"text":"好生日子嗎"},{"start":17202.44,"end":17204.44,"text":"對"},{"start":17204.44,"end":17206.44,"text":"那架接過來我們就是為了考量"},{"start":17206.66,"end":17208.66,"text":"好"},{"start":17208.66,"end":17210.66,"text":"這就是剛剛"},{"start":17210.66,"end":17212.66,"text":"有三位委員要求的部分"},{"start":17212.66,"end":17214.66,"text":"好以上補充"},{"start":17218.42,"end":17220.42,"text":"其實我也很大問題為什麼就已經寫在立法說明"},{"start":17220.42,"end":17222.42,"text":"又不願意寫在"},{"start":17222.4,"end":17224.4,"text":"立法"},{"start":17224.21,"end":17226.21,"text":"剛剛有跟召委報告"},{"start":17226.21,"end":17228.21,"text":"因為這裡面會涉及到"},{"start":17228.21,"end":17230.21,"text":"營養的部分"},{"start":17230.21,"end":17232.21,"text":"他如果現場直接寫"},{"start":17232.21,"end":17234.21,"text":"縣職學校營養師"},{"start":17234.21,"end":17236.21,"text":"我們每一次"},{"start":17236.21,"end":17238.21,"text":"三種光山形態"},{"start":17238.21,"end":17240.21,"text":"他一個人沒有辦法代表其他的"},{"start":17240.21,"end":17242.21,"text":"那就三個人都代表"},{"start":17242.21,"end":17244.21,"text":"如果這樣的話光營養師的"},{"start":17244.21,"end":17246.21,"text":"代表可能有三席以上"},{"start":17246.21,"end":17248.21,"text":"那我們這整個還有好多"},{"start":17248.21,"end":17250.21,"text":"像剛剛中央的衛福農業"},{"start":17250.21,"end":17252.21,"text":"環境採購機關"},{"start":17252.21,"end":17254.21,"text":"所以他的席次就變多了"},{"start":17254.21,"end":17256.21,"text":"所以他的情況變比較多"},{"start":17256.79,"end":17258.79,"text":"就變成因為這個三席四席"},{"start":17258.79,"end":17260.79,"text":"那整個會變成三倍五倍的人數"},{"start":17260.79,"end":17262.79,"text":"二三十個人"},{"start":17262.79,"end":17264.79,"text":"來開這個會議"},{"start":17264.79,"end":17266.79,"text":"那如果他們三個出席然後他們只能夠有一票呢"},{"start":17266.79,"end":17268.79,"text":"三個人來決定他們一票呢"},{"start":17268.79,"end":17270.79,"text":"一般開這個會"},{"start":17270.79,"end":17272.79,"text":"不會用投票"},{"start":17272.79,"end":17274.79,"text":"這個是諮詢會"},{"start":17274.79,"end":17276.79,"text":"諮詢會多一點席次有差嗎"},{"start":17276.79,"end":17278.79,"text":"所以他可以"},{"start":17278.79,"end":17280.79,"text":"用應列席的方式"},{"start":17280.79,"end":17282.79,"text":"如果用出席的方式"},{"start":17282.79,"end":17284.79,"text":"當時候裡面有些相關的代表"},{"start":17284.79,"end":17286.79,"text":"都會跟我們也要爭取他的額度"},{"start":17286.79,"end":17288.79,"text":"人數額度"},{"start":17288.79,"end":17290.79,"text":"其實這一些我們比較需要的是"},{"start":17290.79,"end":17292.79,"text":"一個營養師能夠"},{"start":17292.79,"end":17294.79,"text":"統整各種工商型態"},{"start":17294.79,"end":17296.79,"text":"剛才很多的反應主要集中在"},{"start":17296.79,"end":17298.79,"text":"營養師來說明的時候"},{"start":17298.79,"end":17300.79,"text":"能夠把所有全國"},{"start":17300.79,"end":17302.79,"text":"可能各樣的工商型態"},{"start":17302.79,"end":17304.79,"text":"能夠提供意見"},{"start":17304.79,"end":17306.79,"text":"不管讓中央或地方在做這個統整的"},{"start":17306.79,"end":17308.79,"text":"政策決定的時候比較"},{"start":17308.79,"end":17310.79,"text":"有一個完整意見"},{"start":17310.79,"end":17312.79,"text":"謝謝建英"},{"start":17312.31,"end":17314.31,"text":"好有沒有委員要提案"},{"start":17317.19,"end":17319.19,"text":"好國際委員沒見"},{"start":17319.16,"end":17321.16,"text":"那吳佩儀委員沒見"},{"start":17321.16,"end":17323.16,"text":"村長委員"},{"start":17327.82,"end":17329.82,"text":"我沒有意見"},{"start":17331.4,"end":17333.4,"text":"修法委員有意見嗎"},{"start":17333.25,"end":17335.25,"text":"好"},{"start":17334.45,"end":17336.45,"text":"吳釗偉有意見嗎"},{"start":17337,"end":17339,"text":"就依教育部的"},{"start":17339.36,"end":17341.36,"text":"那"},{"start":17341.08,"end":17343.08,"text":"不好意思因為"},{"start":17343.08,"end":17345.08,"text":"柯志文委員說"},{"start":17345.08,"end":17347.08,"text":"立法說明他會擔憂"},{"start":17346.92,"end":17348.92,"text":"所以我建議保留"},{"start":17348.92,"end":17350.92,"text":"要不要請他來現場開會"},{"start":17350.92,"end":17352.92,"text":"他在高鐵上"},{"start":17352.92,"end":17354.92,"text":"不要啦不要這樣啦"},{"start":17354.92,"end":17356.92,"text":"雲端開會法"},{"start":17360.68,"end":17362.68,"text":"那我們先保留謝謝"},{"start":17364.54,"end":17366.54,"text":"好第12條"},{"start":17368.46,"end":17370.46,"text":"請立法說明"},{"start":17370.46,"end":17372.46,"text":"謝謝釗偉"},{"start":17372.46,"end":17374.46,"text":"有類似的意思我唸一次"},{"start":17374.46,"end":17376.46,"text":"就是為考量符合現場的需求"},{"start":17376.46,"end":17378.46,"text":"專家學者已納入"},{"start":17378.46,"end":17380.46,"text":"現職學校營養師代表"},{"start":17382.23,"end":17384.23,"text":"所以你也是把他寫在立法說明"},{"start":17384.23,"end":17386.23,"text":"不願意寫在"},{"start":17386.23,"end":17388.23,"text":"就剛剛跟釗偉有報告"},{"start":17388.23,"end":17390.23,"text":"他也理解跟柯委員有報告"},{"start":17390.23,"end":17392.23,"text":"他能夠理解"},{"start":17392.23,"end":17394.23,"text":"整體的考慮是"},{"start":17394.23,"end":17396.23,"text":"他各種公參形態"},{"start":17396.23,"end":17398.23,"text":"通常我們有時候請教"},{"start":17398.23,"end":17400.23,"text":"他都很客氣說"},{"start":17400.23,"end":17402.23,"text":"其他的公參形態他不一定這樣"},{"start":17402.23,"end":17404.23,"text":"所以釗偉知道說"},{"start":17404.23,"end":17406.23,"text":"會有一個"},{"start":17406.51,"end":17408.51,"text":"專家的形式"},{"start":17408.51,"end":17410.51,"text":"確認之後帶來整體的意見"},{"start":17410.51,"end":17412.51,"text":"但是一定是要找來"},{"start":17412.51,"end":17414.51,"text":"現場的學校"},{"start":17415.17,"end":17417.17,"text":"這種經驗的人"},{"start":17416.97,"end":17418.97,"text":"只是這個條文上"},{"start":17418.97,"end":17420.97,"text":"如果變成明定"},{"start":17421.06,"end":17423.06,"text":"那他會有一點失之彈性"},{"start":17423.06,"end":17425.06,"text":"大概是這樣"},{"start":17426.98,"end":17428.98,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17429.49,"end":17433.49,"text":"我們現在在講第12條的立法說明"},{"start":17434.89,"end":17436.89,"text":"這個好"},{"start":17436.68,"end":17438.68,"text":"好"},{"start":17438.54,"end":17440.54,"text":"梅裕瑋請說"},{"start":17468.54,"end":17470.54,"text":"我們"},{"start":17470.54,"end":17472.54,"text":"因為他沒有講"},{"start":17472.54,"end":17474.54,"text":"所以我們沒辦法討論"},{"start":17474.54,"end":17476.54,"text":"其實我們在講初期大家是有共識的"},{"start":17476.54,"end":17478.54,"text":"是不是教育部可以趕快聯繫一下"},{"start":17478.54,"end":17480.54,"text":"討論提案委員沒有意見的話"},{"start":17480.54,"end":17482.54,"text":"其實我們這邊是有共識的"},{"start":17482.54,"end":17484.54,"text":"如果確實有意見"},{"start":17484.54,"end":17486.54,"text":"那我是建議說"},{"start":17486.54,"end":17488.54,"text":"保留在委員會等這個提案委員"},{"start":17488.54,"end":17490.54,"text":"下一次初期的時候"},{"start":17490.54,"end":17492.54,"text":"我們可以再一起來討論"},{"start":17490.39,"end":17492.39,"text":"好非常"},{"start":17492.62,"end":17494.62,"text":"感謝委員的建議"},{"start":17494.62,"end":17496.62,"text":"也跟委員特別報告就是說"},{"start":17496.62,"end":17498.62,"text":"通過的條文有共識的話"},{"start":17498.62,"end":17500.62,"text":"也是可以修協商的收入有共識"},{"start":17500.62,"end":17502.62,"text":"也是可以修正"},{"start":17502.62,"end":17504.62,"text":"這補充報告"},{"start":17505.97,"end":17507.97,"text":"好"},{"start":17509.11,"end":17511.11,"text":"因為基本上教育部的說法"},{"start":17512.25,"end":17514.25,"text":"看起來有"},{"start":17514.73,"end":17516.73,"text":"有自己的"},{"start":17516.91,"end":17518.91,"text":"見解"},{"start":17519.08,"end":17521.08,"text":"科委員這邊的疑慮也是有啦"},{"start":17523.91,"end":17525.91,"text":"那是不是"},{"start":17529.93,"end":17531.93,"text":"還有委員其他有意見嗎"},{"start":17534.37,"end":17536.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17536.37,"end":17538.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17538.37,"end":17540.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17540.37,"end":17542.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17542.37,"end":17544.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17544.37,"end":17546.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17546.37,"end":17548.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17548.37,"end":17550.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17550.37,"end":17552.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17552.37,"end":17554.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17554.37,"end":17556.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17556.37,"end":17558.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17558.37,"end":17560.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17560.37,"end":17562.37,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17534.98,"end":17536.98,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17536.38,"end":17538.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17538.38,"end":17540.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17540.38,"end":17542.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17542.38,"end":17544.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17544.38,"end":17546.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17546.38,"end":17548.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17548.38,"end":17550.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17550.38,"end":17552.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17552.38,"end":17554.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17554.38,"end":17556.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17556.38,"end":17558.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17558.38,"end":17560.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17560.38,"end":17562.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17562.38,"end":17564.38,"text":"有意見的請問"},{"start":17538.17,"end":17540.17,"text":"這現場是有共識的"},{"start":17548.07,"end":17550.07,"text":"或者就是說因為我們現場大家是有共識"},{"start":17550.07,"end":17552.07,"text":"大家都沒意見我們是不是希望通過"},{"start":17552.07,"end":17554.07,"text":"提安委員有意見他之後"},{"start":17554.07,"end":17556.07,"text":"在協商的時候他可以再提出"},{"start":17556.07,"end":17558.07,"text":"就像我剛剛說的啦通過了"},{"start":17558.07,"end":17560.07,"text":"協商"},{"start":17559.68,"end":17561.68,"text":"也是可以"},{"start":17561.68,"end":17563.68,"text":"去處理啦"},{"start":17563.67,"end":17565.67,"text":"那我們就先通過啦"},{"start":17566.94,"end":17568.94,"text":"還是"},{"start":17569,"end":17571,"text":"委員有意見嗎"},{"start":17571.29,"end":17573.29,"text":"村村委員有意見嗎"},{"start":17582.18,"end":17584.18,"text":"如果大家都沒有達成共識"},{"star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的文字我們大概"},{"start":17845.13,"end":17847.13,"text":"就是其實是中和各委員的建議"},{"start":17847.13,"end":17849.13,"text":"剛剛食藥署他有講"},{"start":17849.13,"end":17851.13,"text":"兩個意見"},{"start":17851.13,"end":17853.13,"text":"第一個意見是說"},{"start":17852.52,"end":17854.52,"text":"分號後因為已經有食安法"},{"start":17854.52,"end":17856.52,"text":"所以具體的講"},{"start":17856.52,"end":17858.52,"text":"分號後不建議訂"},{"start":17859.54,"end":17861.54,"text":"這第一點"},{"start":17861.54,"end":17863.54,"text":"第二點分號前"},{"start":17862.57,"end":17864.57,"text":"其實原來的文字"},{"start":17864.57,"end":17866.57,"text":"被委員拆開了兩個通知"},{"start":17866.57,"end":17870.57,"text":"現在就講你們的修正文字就好了"},{"start":17870.57,"end":17872.57,"text":"對啊所以我們沒意見"},{"start":17872.57,"end":17874.57,"text":"但是剛剛"},{"start":17874.57,"end":17876.57,"text":"招委又問食藥署的"},{"start":17876.57,"end":17878.57,"text":"什麼"},{"start":17878.57,"end":17880.57,"text":"沒有啦我們現在只是在等時間"},{"start":17882.79,"end":17884.79,"text":"教書"},{"start":17885.12,"end":17887.12,"text":"你再說一次好不好"},{"start":17887.67,"end":17889.67,"text":"教育部的修正文字"},{"start":17890.77,"end":17892.77,"text":"教育部的文字"},{"start":17892.66,"end":17894.66,"text":"教育部的修正文字食藥署有意見嗎"},{"start":17895.56,"end":17897.56,"text":"沒有嘛現在這個18條"},{"start":17898.45,"end":17900.45,"text":"食藥署沒有意見就"},{"start":17900.45,"end":17902.45,"text":"剛剛有說明過了"},{"start":17902.45,"end":17904.45,"text":"不好意思因為剩兩分鐘要放你走"},{"start":17904.45,"end":17906.45,"text":"你就直接告訴我18條你"},{"start":17906.45,"end":17908.45,"text":"OK啦"},{"start":17908.45,"end":17910.45,"text":"教育部的版本就是送進來的版本"},{"start":17910.45,"end":17912.45,"text":"教育部的版本我們本來就沒有意見"},{"start":17912.45,"end":17914.45,"text":"沒有意見了"},{"start":17914.45,"end":17916.45,"text":"我私底下"},{"start":17916.45,"end":17918.45,"text":"我檯面上問你"},{"start":17918.45,"end":17920.45,"text":"剛剛我提的這個版本你說食安法"},{"start":17920.45,"end":17922.45,"text":"都有規範了"},{"start":17922.45,"end":17924.45,"text":"對不管是自主通報或者是"},{"start":17924.45,"end":17926.45,"text":"下架回收封存"},{"start":17926.45,"end":17928.45,"text":"規定"},{"start":17928.45,"end":17930.45,"text":"那我們是不是就依教育部"},{"start":17930.45,"end":17932.45,"text":"沒有意見"},{"start":17932.45,"end":17934.45,"text":"其他委員有意見的"},{"start":17936.76,"end":17938.76,"text":"沒有"},{"start":17939.89,"end":17941.89,"text":"不要再動時間了"},{"start":17941.89,"end":17943.89,"text":"沒意見"},{"start":17943.89,"end":17945.89,"text":"好那我要宣告有委員有意見嗎"},{"start":17945.89,"end":17947.89,"text":"有的話要舉手"},{"start":17948.82,"end":17950.82,"text":"好請遵守委員"},{"start":17954.39,"end":17956.39,"text":"因為這個剛好是"},{"start":17956.39,"end":17958.39,"text":"有關於校園的一個食安"},{"start":17958.39,"end":17960.39,"text":"的問題然後"},{"start":17960.39,"end":17962.39,"text":"又因為最近這個"},{"start":17962.39,"end":17964.39,"text":"獨有的一個"},{"start":17964.39,"end":17966.39,"text":"一個問題讓家長"},{"start":17966.39,"end":17968.39,"text":"都非常的不安心"},{"start":17968.39,"end":17970.39,"text":"所以我是覺得是不是"},{"start":17970.39,"end":17972.39,"text":"在"},{"start":17972.04,"end":17974.04,"text":"在"},{"start":17974.03,"end":17976.03,"text":"在"},{"start":17976.02,"end":17978.02,"text":"委員有信心一點"},{"start":17978.02,"end":17980.02,"text":"保留還是同意"},{"start":17979.21,"end":17981.21,"text":"是不是保留"},{"start":17981.41,"end":17983.41,"text":"那"},{"start":17983.79,"end":17985.79,"text":"呃"},{"start":17985.03,"end":17987.03,"text":"三點了喔我先讓食藥署先離開"},{"start":17988.33,"end":17990.33,"text":"好"},{"start":17990.11,"end":17992.11,"text":"我來跟所有的委員溝通一下"},{"start":17993.12,"end":17995.12,"text":"我們休息"},{"start":17994.65,"end":17996.65,"text":"我來跟委員溝通"},{"start":17996.65,"end":17998.65,"text":"因為配一委員"},{"start":17998.65,"end":18000.65,"text":"真的非常關心"},{"start":18000.65,"end":18002.65,"text":"非常有理性在誠意探討"},{"start":18002.65,"end":18004.65,"text":"這件事情那"},{"start":18004.65,"end":18006.65,"text":"一群委員希望說我能夠儘量能夠以"},{"start":18006.65,"end":18008.65,"text":"教育部就以教育部的文字好了"},{"start":18008.65,"end":18010.65,"text":"給我一點時間好嗎我來討論一下"},{"start":18010.65,"end":18012.65,"text":"我們休息一下"},{"start":18051.05,"end":18053.05,"text":"我們休息一下"},{"start":18053.97,"end":18055.97,"text":"我們休息一下"},{"start":19331.69,"end":19333.69,"text":"還是要拜託議事組可不可以"},{"start":19333.69,"end":19335.69,"text":"幫忙聯絡召委喔"},{"start":19335.69,"end":19337.69,"text":"因為剛剛還休息但是沒有宣告時間"},{"start":19337.69,"end":19339.69,"text":"我們全部"},{"start":19339.57,"end":19341.57,"text":"包括教育部的部長署長"},{"start":19341.57,"end":19343.57,"text":"然後全部的人在這邊已經空等了"},{"start":19343.57,"end":19345.57,"text":"超過二十分鐘了"},{"start":19346.16,"end":19348.16,"text":"那麼現在是因為國民黨的委員不在"},{"start":19348.16,"end":19350.16,"text":"所以召委在等時間"},{"start":19351.42,"end":19353.42,"text":"等他們回到院區來才要"},{"start":19353.42,"end":19355.42,"text":"要來強行表決嗎"},{"start":19355.42,"end":19357.42,"text":"我們現在什麼原因"},{"start":19357.42,"end":19359.42,"text":"整間的人在這邊空號時間呢"},{"start":19361.44,"end":19363.44,"text":"可不可以拜託議事組的人員"},{"start":19363.44,"end":19365.44,"text":"因為已經十分鐘前"},{"start":19365.44,"end":19367.44,"text":"召委就傳話說在廁所了"},{"start":19368.89,"end":19370.89,"text":"這個應該在廁所的時間"},{"start":19370.89,"end":19372.89,"text":"很少見會這麼久才對"},{"start":19372.89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老人回來了"},{"start":19409.12,"end":19411.12,"text":"這樣有望開會"},{"start":19411.5,"end":19413.5,"text":"我們已經在這邊空等"},{"start":20008.52,"end":20010.52,"text":"現在開會"},{"start":20010.19,"end":20012.19,"text":"不好意思 討論的過程總是比較繁複的喔"},{"start":20014.15,"end":20016.15,"text":"那我們現在"},{"start":20015.65,"end":20017.65,"text":"第十八條"},{"start":20017.17,"end":20019.17,"text":"我們剛剛還在討論"},{"start":20019.17,"end":20021.17,"text":"因為食藥署有特別提到"},{"start":20021.17,"end":20023.17,"text":"也尊重教育部的提案"},{"start":20023.17,"end":20025.17,"text":"我們是不是就"},{"start":20025.91,"end":20027.91,"text":"依教育部的建議文字"},{"start":20027.91,"end":20029.91,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":20030.39,"end":20032.39,"text":"好"},{"start":20031.31,"end":20033.31,"text":"第十八條 修正通過"},{"start":20033.31,"end":20035.31,"text":"依教育部建議文字"},{"start":20036.24,"end":20038.24,"text":"好 接下來我們要處理第十九條"},{"start":20039.14,"end":20041.14,"text":"我們再請國教署"},{"start":20041.81,"end":20043.81,"text":"署長是不是再麻煩您"},{"start":20043.81,"end":20045.81,"text":"針對您剛剛的提案 我覺得說有道理"},{"start":20045.81,"end":20047.81,"text":"那是不是您再跟大家"},{"start":20047.81,"end":20049.81,"text":"分享一下 謝謝"},{"start":20056.93,"end":20058.93,"text":"第十九條"},{"start":20058.93,"end":20060.93,"text":"是在召委的這個"},{"start":20060.93,"end":20062.93,"text":"條文下 我們讓他"},{"start":20062.93,"end":20064.93,"text":"更完備他怎麼操作"},{"start":20064.93,"end":20066.93,"text":"那我們在"},{"start":20066.93,"end":20068.93,"text":"最後這邊加"},{"start":20069.96,"end":20071.96,"text":"包抄位"},{"start":20071.07,"end":20073.07,"text":"抱歉喔"},{"start":20073.07,"end":20075.07,"text":"那我就直接 因為我看"},{"start":20075.07,"end":20077.07,"text":"如果文字上要呈現的話"},{"start":20077.07,"end":20079.07,"text":"麻煩就好 謝謝"},{"start":20079.07,"end":20081.07,"text":"先呈現了 您請看一下 大概就是"},{"start":20081.07,"end":20083.07,"text":"上面在加該衛生主管機關"},{"start":20083.07,"end":20085.07,"text":"任 清潔重大等等"},{"start":20085.07,"end":20087.07,"text":"所以有一個機關可以"},{"start":20087.07,"end":20089.07,"text":"原來就是他的權責在工作"},{"start":20089.07,"end":20091.07,"text":"只要橫向讓"},{"start":20091.07,"end":20093.07,"text":"教育局知道 大概是這樣"},{"start":20093.07,"end":20095.07,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":20096.65,"end":20098.65,"text":"好"},{"start":20098.85,"end":20100.85,"text":"原本委員有意見"},{"start":20102.76,"end":20104.76,"text":"這個應該衛福部也說他們對教育部的"},{"start":20104.76,"end":20106.76,"text":"修正文字沒有意見"},{"start":20106.76,"end":20108.76,"text":"所以我這條我同意沒意見"},{"start":20110.02,"end":20112.02,"text":"好"},{"start":20111.66,"end":20113.66,"text":"請醫事人員宣讀一下好嗎"},{"start":20114.91,"end":20116.91,"text":"第十集我打好 因為文字比較"},{"start":20117.51,"end":20119.51,"text":"多一點喔 要麻煩一下"},{"start":20119.51,"end":20121.51,"text":"第十九條學校採外訂"},{"start":20122.66,"end":20124.66,"text":"合同參者"},{"start":20124.66,"end":20126.66,"text":"廠商應符合食品安全管制"},{"start":20126.66,"end":20128.66,"text":"系統準則之規定"},{"start":20128.66,"end":20130.66,"text":"學校的隨時派員或委託"},{"start":20130.66,"end":20132.66,"text":"代表到"},{"start":20132.23,"end":20134.23,"text":"到場了解食品衛生管理"},{"start":20134.23,"end":20136.23,"text":"作業發現有"},{"start":20138.74,"end":20140.74,"text":"發現有衛生不良情形者"},{"start":20140.74,"end":20142.74,"text":"應立即通知"},{"start":20145.52,"end":20147.52,"text":"所在地主管機關"},{"start":20147.52,"end":20151.52,"text":"依食品安全衛生管理法及相關規定辦理"},{"start":20151.52,"end":20153.52,"text":"該衛生主管機關"},{"start":20153.52,"end":20158.52,"text":"任情節重大有危害學生健康或公差安全之虞者"},{"start":20158.52,"end":20161.52,"text":"應通知該校主管機關"},{"start":20161.52,"end":20163.52,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":20166.65,"end":20168.65,"text":"署長"},{"start":20167.73,"end":20169.73,"text":"我是原本是提學校啦"},{"start":20169.73,"end":20171.73,"text":"那可以派代表"},{"start":20172.37,"end":20174.37,"text":"來做集合啦"},{"start":20174.37,"end":20176.37,"text":"那您的建議就是交給衛生主管機關"},{"start":20178.73,"end":20180.73,"text":"原來"},{"start":20180.73,"end":20182.73,"text":"如果沒有加這個紅字"},{"start":20182.73,"end":20184.73,"text":"會變成是學校"},{"start":20184.73,"end":20186.73,"text":"要處理情節重大"},{"start":20186.73,"end":20188.73,"text":"等等等等"},{"start":20188.73,"end":20190.73,"text":"要判定"},{"start":20190.73,"end":20192.73,"text":"我們這個只是就前面的句子"},{"start":20192.73,"end":20194.73,"text":"本來地方衛生主管機關就已經處理了"},{"start":20194.73,"end":20196.73,"text":"他處理完"},{"start":20196.73,"end":20198.73,"text":"其中他碰到了情節重大的"},{"start":20198.73,"end":20200.73,"text":"要趕快橫向通知教育局這樣而已"},{"start":20200.73,"end":20202.73,"text":"所以是接著您的"},{"start":20202.73,"end":20204.73,"text":"去完成"},{"start":20204.73,"end":20206.73,"text":"誰來做那件事"},{"start":20206.73,"end":20208.73,"text":"把那個認定是順著原來的"},{"start":20209.73,"end":20211.73,"text":"衛生局不用讓學校重新認定"},{"start":20211.73,"end":20213.73,"text":"去判斷這重不重大"},{"start":20224.99,"end":20226.99,"text":"有把這個文字補上"},{"start":20226.99,"end":20228.99,"text":"那就一"},{"start":20228.43,"end":20230.43,"text":"我對不起我還是要問一下"},{"start":20230.43,"end":20232.43,"text":"委員有沒有意見"},{"start":20233.93,"end":20235.93,"text":"配委員你看喔"},{"start":20235.93,"end":20237.93,"text":"我這個剛剛休息討論完是不是很順暢"},{"start":20237.93,"end":20239.93,"text":"所以討論是需要等待的"},{"start":20239.93,"end":20241.93,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":20241.93,"end":20243.93,"text":"那相信這樣子就順暢許多了"},{"start":20243.93,"end":20245.93,"text":"沒有意見喔"},{"start":20245.93,"end":20247.93,"text":"那我們是不是就"},{"start":20247.93,"end":20249.93,"text":"教育部修正文字"},{"start":20249.93,"end":20251.93,"text":"照教育部修正文字通過"},{"start":20256.26,"end":20258.26,"text":"好我們"},{"start":20257.98,"end":20259.98,"text":"不好意思我先看一下"},{"start":20264.39,"end":20266.39,"text":"不是我的不是我的"},{"start":20266.39,"end":20268.39,"text":"嚇我一跳"},{"start":20278.94,"end":20280.94,"text":"喔"},{"start":20280.14,"end":20282.14,"text":"好"},{"start":20281.67,"end":20283.67,"text":"那不好意思因為我們要回過頭來喔"},{"start":20283.67,"end":20285.67,"text":"處理"},{"start":20285.77,"end":20287.77,"text":"喔"},{"start":20287.09,"end":20289.09,"text":"本案114年"},{"start":20289.09,"end":20291.09,"text":"11月27日召開第四會期"},{"start":20291.09,"end":20293.09,"text":"教育文化委員會第八次全體會議"},{"start":20293.09,"end":20295.09,"text":"我們的第一條"},{"start":20296.47,"end":20298.47,"text":"暫保留"},{"start":20298.47,"end":20300.47,"text":"所以我們要回到第一條"},{"start":20303.63,"end":20305.63,"text":"好第一條台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":20305.63,"end":20307.63,"text":"第一條等40個提案"},{"start":20309.57,"end":20311.57,"text":"來我們請所有的同仁回到第一條謝謝"},{"start":20317.8,"end":20319.8,"text":"好請提案委員舉手發言謝謝"},{"start":20333.09,"end":20335.09,"text":"好那個因為我們第一條台灣民眾黨的提案"},{"start":20335.09,"end":20337.09,"text":"是不是請民眾黨先發言一下"},{"start":20340.67,"end":20342.67,"text":"委員慢慢來我等你喔"},{"start":20357.32,"end":20359.32,"text":"好"},{"start":20359.26,"end":20361.26,"text":"第一條呢台灣民眾黨"},{"start":20361.26,"end":20363.26,"text":"提出是為了要提升"},{"start":20363.26,"end":20365.26,"text":"學校工餐品質"},{"start":20365.26,"end":20367.26,"text":"建議飲食"},{"start":20367.26,"end":20369.26,"text":"教育與刺激學生"},{"start":20369.26,"end":20371.26,"text":"健康飲食"},{"start":20371.26,"end":20373.26,"text":"以及學生健全身心"},{"start":20373.26,"end":20375.26,"text":"發展特制定"},{"start":20375.26,"end":20377.26,"text":"本法有關"},{"start":20377.26,"end":20379.26,"text":"學校工餐以及"},{"start":20379.26,"end":20381.26,"text":"飲食教育相關"},{"start":20381.26,"end":20383.26,"text":"事項優先續用"},{"start":20383.26,"end":20385.26,"text":"本法之規定本法"},{"start":20385.26,"end":20387.26,"text":"規定"},{"start":20386.52,"end":20388.52,"text":"規定者適用其"},{"start":20388.52,"end":20390.52,"text":"其他相關法律之規定"},{"start":20390.52,"end":20392.52,"text":"這是本黨所提出來的"},{"start":20397.92,"end":20399.92,"text":"好"},{"start":20398.85,"end":20400.85,"text":"還有委員要發言嗎"},{"start":20404.77,"end":20406.77,"text":"好沒有委員要發言喔"},{"start":20406.77,"end":20408.77,"text":"那我先講一下"},{"start":20408.77,"end":20410.77,"text":"第一條呢我們這邊的修正動議"},{"start":20411.25,"end":20413.25,"text":"呃"},{"start":20414.85,"end":20416.85,"text":"因為沒有修正動議"},{"start":20416.49,"end":20418.49,"text":"對啊"},{"start":20418.56,"end":20420.56,"text":"那我用我的版本講啦"},{"start":20420.56,"end":20422.56,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":20441.38,"end":20443.38,"text":"其實"},{"start":20442.54,"end":20444.54,"text":"基本上有一些跟教育部的"},{"start":20444.54,"end":20446.54,"text":"有相似啦"},{"start":20446.54,"end":20448.54,"text":"但是我還是希望能夠微調一些文字就是說"},{"start":20448.54,"end":20450.54,"text":"呃"},{"start":20450.54,"end":20452.54,"text":"健全校園公餐食品安全"},{"start":20452.54,"end":20454.54,"text":"營養管理的資訊公開機制啦"},{"start":20454.54,"end":20456.54,"text":"當然這邊又提到我們在剛剛在講"},{"start":20456.54,"end":20458.54,"text":"飲食教育跟食農教育"},{"start":20458.54,"end":20460.54,"text":"的部分喔"},{"start":20460.54,"end":20462.54,"text":"那也希望說"},{"start":20462.54,"end":20464.54,"text":"提供健康營養安全衛生飲食之外"},{"start":20464.54,"end":20466.54,"text":"身心健全發展尊重自然環境"},{"start":20466.54,"end":20468.54,"text":"的教育目的這個是我的"},{"start":20468.54,"end":20470.54,"text":"提案"},{"start":20469.56,"end":20471.56,"text":"那所以"},{"start":20473.62,"end":20475.62,"text":"我的立法目的是提升學校午餐的品質之外"},{"start":20475.62,"end":20477.62,"text":"那也希望平衡"},{"start":20477.62,"end":20479.62,"text":"城鄉差距"},{"start":20479.62,"end":20481.62,"text":"健全公餐的食安治理"},{"start":20481.62,"end":20483.62,"text":"營養管理"},{"start":20483.62,"end":20485.62,"text":"資訊公開的核心喔"},{"start":20485.62,"end":20487.62,"text":"並將整個飲食教育食農教育納入到健康飲食的"},{"start":20487.62,"end":20489.62,"text":"一個制度裡面"},{"start":20489.62,"end":20491.62,"text":"那我也支持說"},{"start":20491.62,"end":20493.62,"text":"基本上我們現在"},{"start":20493.62,"end":20495.62,"text":"有一些學校衛生法"},{"start":20495.62,"end":20497.62,"text":"第二三條相關學校供應午餐"},{"start":20497.62,"end":20499.62,"text":"的膳食的安全"},{"start":20499.62,"end":20501.62,"text":"營養午餐健康的飲食教育的規範"},{"start":20501.62,"end":20503.62,"text":"但食農教育法有關的食農教育"},{"start":20503.62,"end":20505.62,"text":"其實在地產銷的一個永續飲食的"},{"start":20505.62,"end":20507.62,"text":"政策方向"},{"start":20507.62,"end":20509.62,"text":"以及食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":20509.62,"end":20511.62,"text":"對食品安全管理的風險基本的一個制度"},{"start":20511.62,"end":20513.62,"text":"但是本條例"},{"start":20513.62,"end":20515.62,"text":"作為營養午餐以及飲食"},{"start":20515.62,"end":20517.62,"text":"教育"},{"start":20517.6,"end":20519.6,"text":"事項的優先適用的法律"},{"start":20519.6,"end":20521.6,"text":"可供後續"},{"start":20521.6,"end":20523.6,"text":"公餐人力採購食安"},{"start":20523.6,"end":20525.6,"text":"財務以及資訊公開的"},{"start":20525.6,"end":20527.6,"text":"規範來做一個具體的"},{"start":20527.6,"end":20529.6,"text":"整體法源喔"},{"start":20529.6,"end":20531.6,"text":"所以審查"},{"start":20531.34,"end":20533.34,"text":"我也是參考了這個現行規範"},{"start":20533.34,"end":20535.34,"text":"分散於這個學校衛生法第二十二條"},{"start":20535.34,"end":20537.34,"text":"至第二十三條之三"},{"start":20537.34,"end":20539.34,"text":"學校安全衛生管理法"},{"start":20539.34,"end":20541.34,"text":"以及政府採購法的"},{"start":20541.34,"end":20543.34,"text":"勞動法制來訂定這一次"},{"start":20543.34,"end":20545.34,"text":"專法的一個功能"},{"start":20545.34,"end":20547.34,"text":"來整個統整公餐飲食"},{"start":20547.34,"end":20549.34,"text":"食安人力採購財務"},{"start":20549.34,"end":20551.34,"text":"以及資訊公開責任"},{"start":20551.34,"end":20553.34,"text":"那也跟大家特別報告"},{"start":20553.34,"end":20555.34,"text":"日本的這個營養午餐專法"},{"start":20555.34,"end":20557.34,"text":"跟韓國的喔"},{"start":20557.34,"end":20559.34,"text":"那也是專法處理學校公餐的教育"},{"start":20559.34,"end":20561.34,"text":"營養衛生行政處理"},{"start":20561.34,"end":20563.34,"text":"所以我是希望說這個"},{"start":20563.34,"end":20565.34,"text":"營養午餐專法它有一個"},{"start":20565.34,"end":20567.34,"text":"跨制度的整合需求"},{"start":20567.34,"end":20569.34,"text":"當然不要說都是分散"},{"start":20569.34,"end":20571.34,"text":"這是我的一個建議"},{"start":20572.19,"end":20574.19,"text":"下一步回應一下"},{"start":20576.34,"end":20578.34,"text":"這個版本有非常多的委員"},{"start":20578.34,"end":20580.34,"text":"有一些想法"},{"start":20580.34,"end":20582.34,"text":"所以當時因為各委員的重點"},{"start":20582.34,"end":20584.34,"text":"說明之後呢"},{"start":20584.34,"end":20586.34,"text":"請我們去整理一個版本"},{"start":20586.34,"end":20588.34,"text":"那我們把"},{"start":20589.72,"end":20591.72,"text":"我們"},{"start":20591.67,"end":20593.67,"text":"你們有一個建議文字"},{"start":20593.67,"end":20595.67,"text":"對對"},{"start":20595.67,"end":20597.67,"text":"因為那時候有授權我們再去多聽一下委員"},{"start":20597.67,"end":20599.67,"text":"那委員的心聲"},{"start":20599.67,"end":20601.67,"text":"都讓我們知道之後"},{"start":20601.67,"end":20603.67,"text":"我們就修出這個版本"},{"start":20603.67,"end":20605.67,"text":"並且增加第二項"},{"start":20605.42,"end":20607.42,"text":"是趙委員的意思"},{"start":20607.81,"end":20609.81,"text":"這樣看可不可以"},{"start":20622.21,"end":20624.21,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":20623.96,"end":20625.96,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":20637.58,"end":20639.58,"text":"佩儀委員"},{"start":20639.58,"end":20641.58,"text":"一起委員"},{"start":20644.64,"end":20646.64,"text":"那委員有意見嗎"},{"start":20649.24,"end":20651.24,"text":"沒有意見"},{"start":20651.28,"end":20653.28,"text":"好"},{"start":20652.84,"end":20654.84,"text":"那我們就依教育部版本通過"},{"start":20655.59,"end":20657.59,"text":"宣讀一下"},{"start":20663.32,"end":20665.32,"text":"第一條"},{"start":20664.99,"end":20666.99,"text":"為提升學校午餐品質及平衡"},{"start":20666.99,"end":20668.99,"text":"城鄉差距"},{"start":20668.99,"end":20670.99,"text":"並推動飲食教育培養學生健康飲食觀念"},{"start":20670.99,"end":20672.99,"text":"認識在地多元飲食文化"},{"start":20672.99,"end":20674.99,"text":"具備自然及永續環境"},{"start":20674.99,"end":20676.99,"text":"知能特制定本條例"},{"start":20677.85,"end":20679.85,"text":"學校午餐及飲食教育事項"},{"start":20679.85,"end":20681.85,"text":"優先適用本條例"},{"start":20681.85,"end":20683.85,"text":"本條例為規定者適用其他法律式規定"},{"start":20683.85,"end":20685.85,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":20686.05,"end":20688.05,"text":"我們宣告"},{"start":20687.21,"end":20689.21,"text":"依教育部的版本通過"},{"start":20690.28,"end":20692.28,"text":"修正文字通過"},{"start":20692.28,"end":20694.28,"text":"教育部貢獻很多"},{"start":20694.28,"end":20696.28,"text":"這個建議文字非常多"},{"start":20696.28,"end":20698.28,"text":"非常感謝教育部"},{"start":20696.16,"end":20698.16,"text":"現在來處理"},{"start":20700.22,"end":20702.22,"text":"依教育部的建議文字"},{"start":20702.22,"end":20704.22,"text":"現在本案所有"},{"start":20705.27,"end":20707.27,"text":"本案保留條文"},{"start":20707.27,"end":20709.27,"text":"有第九條、第十一條、第十二條、第十四條"},{"start":20709.27,"end":20711.27,"text":"第十五條、第十六條"},{"start":20711.27,"end":20713.27,"text":"第十二十條、第二十二條、第二十三條"},{"start":20713.27,"end":20715.27,"text":"含對應之各提案"},{"start":20715.27,"end":20717.27,"text":"條文及修正動議全部送院會處理"},{"start":20717.27,"end":20719.27,"text":"審查結果"},{"start":20719.27,"end":20721.27,"text":"免於重複宣讀"},{"start":20721.27,"end":20723.27,"text":"在不影響條文文藝前的前提之下"},{"start":20723.27,"end":20725.27,"text":"文字、條字以及標點符號為統一體力"},{"start":20725.27,"end":20727.27,"text":"授權議事人員整理"},{"start":20727.27,"end":20729.27,"text":"列入紀錄"},{"start":20729.27,"end":20731.27,"text":"本日新增之修正動議"},{"start":20731.27,"end":20733.27,"text":"立法說明等相關書面資料"},{"start":20733.27,"end":20735.27,"text":"均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":20740.45,"end":20742.45,"text":"我們要送院會處理"},{"start":20742.45,"end":20744.45,"text":"由意"},{"start":20743.64,"end":20745.64,"text":"有意義"},{"start":20745.75,"end":20747.75,"text":"請點人數"},{"start":20760.3,"end":20762.3,"text":"送院會協商處理"},{"start":20762.69,"end":20764.69,"text":"我們就照程序嘛"},{"start":20764.69,"end":20766.69,"text":"還會有協商"},{"start":20766.69,"end":20768.69,"text":"是不是可以保留在我們的委員會"},{"start":20768.69,"end":20770.69,"text":"因為今天有很多的提案委員"},{"start":20770.69,"end":20772.69,"text":"包括柯政委員他人也不在啊"},{"start":20772.69,"end":20774.69,"text":"柯政委員我會處理"},{"start":20774.69,"end":20776.69,"text":"黨內的一些一些"},{"start":20776.69,"end":20778.69,"text":"你們會處理"},{"start":20778.69,"end":20780.69,"text":"對我們會充分的討論"},{"start":20780.69,"end":20782.69,"text":"到時候院會協商的時候"},{"start":20782.69,"end":20784.69,"text":"我答應過委員我會積極的協商"},{"start":20784.69,"end":20786.69,"text":"再把它整合"},{"start":20786.69,"end":20788.69,"text":"今天我們有這麼多的版本都用教育部來執行"},{"start":20788.69,"end":20790.69,"text":"我希望事不宜遲"},{"start":20790.69,"end":20792.69,"text":"我們已經進入到我們這個"},{"start":20792.69,"end":20794.69,"text":"整體的文"},{"start":20794.69,"end":20796.69,"text":"這個法案裡面了"},{"start":20796.69,"end":20798.69,"text":"實用有的問題太嚴重我們要趕快處理"},{"start":20798.69,"end":20800.69,"text":"好"},{"start":20800.69,"end":20802.69,"text":"在場主席委員八人不含主席"},{"start":20802.69,"end":20804.69,"text":"主席還是讓我們發言一下"},{"start":20804.69,"end":20806.69,"text":"就是說因為我覺得營養午餐法"},{"start":20806.69,"end":20808.69,"text":"因為我們也都有版本"},{"start":20808.69,"end":20810.69,"text":"所以我覺得這一個案其實我們大家"},{"start":20810.69,"end":20812.69,"text":"共識性也是高的"},{"start":20812.69,"end":20814.69,"text":"我們都希望要趕快把它定得更明確"},{"start":20814.69,"end":20816.69,"text":"那麼但是我們的主張是說"},{"start":20816.69,"end":20818.69,"text":"今天保留就是還沒有共識的部分"},{"start":20818.69,"end":20820.69,"text":"因為我們好不容易其實今天很多條都是有共識的"},{"start":20820.69,"end":20822.69,"text":"沒有共識保留的部分"},{"start":20822.69,"end":20824.69,"text":"我認為應該要留在委員會"},{"start":20824.69,"end":20826.69,"text":"再好好討論"},{"start":20826.69,"end":20828.69,"text":"至少一次"},{"start":20828.69,"end":20830.69,"text":"為什麼因為像剛剛光是第九條"},{"start":20830.69,"end":20832.69,"text":"就其實我們現場委員"},{"start":20832.69,"end":20834.69,"text":"大家都是有共識"},{"start":20834.69,"end":20836.69,"text":"可是因為提案"},{"start":20836.69,"end":20838.69,"text":"修正動議的提案委員"},{"start":20838.69,"end":20840.69,"text":"他仍不在現場"},{"start":20840.69,"end":20842.69,"text":"那透過傳話說他有意見"},{"start":20842.69,"end":20844.69,"text":"那麼我覺得因為他畢竟人沒有出席"},{"start":20844.69,"end":20846.69,"text":"但是我們也尊重"},{"start":20846.69,"end":20848.69,"text":"他的提案"},{"start":20848.69,"end":20850.69,"text":"所以我覺得比較恰當做法應當是說"},{"start":20850.69,"end":20852.69,"text":"下一次委員會這個提案委員"},{"start":20852.69,"end":20854.69,"text":"他有出席的時候因為他的意見"},{"start":20854.69,"end":20856.69,"text":"提出來現場我們還可以進行討論"},{"start":20856.69,"end":20858.69,"text":"我覺得這是委員會中心主義"},{"start":20858.69,"end":20860.69,"text":"他的核心原則"},{"start":20860.69,"end":20862.69,"text":"並不是說因為這位委員他是國民黨黨團"},{"start":20862.69,"end":20864.69,"text":"黨團處理"},{"start":20864.69,"end":20866.69,"text":"因為我們也希望可以跟他討論"},{"start":20866.69,"end":20868.69,"text":"因為也許他提出來的理由我們可能是認同的"},{"start":20868.69,"end":20870.69,"text":"但是我會先知道"},{"start":20870.69,"end":20872.69,"text":"他的依據是什麼"},{"start":20872.69,"end":20874.69,"text":"但是我們今天關於剛剛這一條"},{"start":20874.69,"end":20876.69,"text":"我們今天沒有辦法討論"},{"start":20876.69,"end":20878.69,"text":"因為我們只聽到傳話說不在場的委員"},{"start":20878.69,"end":20880.69,"text":"他有意見"},{"start":20880.45,"end":20882.45,"text":"可是我們在場委員他那一條我們是有共識的"},{"start":20882.45,"end":20884.45,"text":"所以比較合理的做法"},{"start":20884.45,"end":20886.45,"text":"應該是說等他有"},{"start":20886.45,"end":20888.45,"text":"提案委員他有出席的時候"},{"start":20888.45,"end":20890.45,"text":"我們在委員會這邊"},{"start":20890.45,"end":20892.45,"text":"針對他有意見的部分我們來進行討論"},{"start":20892.45,"end":20894.45,"text":"因為我們剛剛每個人都有發言"},{"start":20894.45,"end":20896.45,"text":"我們有意見我們有發言"},{"start":20896.45,"end":20898.45,"text":"現在你就把他送出去"},{"start":20898.45,"end":20900.45,"text":"像光是剛剛那一條等於我們在這邊"},{"start":20900.45,"end":20902.45,"text":"沒有討論到"},{"start":20902.45,"end":20904.45,"text":"所以我的建議我的提案是說"},{"start":20904.45,"end":20906.45,"text":"我們應該保留的部分"},{"start":20906.45,"end":20908.45,"text":"留在委員會"},{"start":20908.45,"end":20910.45,"text":"保留在委員會"},{"start":20910.45,"end":20912.45,"text":"我請問你一個問題"},{"start":20912.45,"end":20914.45,"text":"就保留在委員會"},{"start":20914.45,"end":20916.45,"text":"他說11 12有應該要討論"},{"start":20916.45,"end":20918.45,"text":"對不對"},{"start":20918.45,"end":20920.45,"text":"我剛剛其實已經把原文"},{"start":20920.45,"end":20922.45,"text":"然後我是傳給柯志恩他說尊重在場的委員"},{"start":20922.45,"end":20924.45,"text":"好那個是"},{"start":20924.45,"end":20926.45,"text":"11 12"},{"start":20926.45,"end":20928.45,"text":"但我的意思是說今天還有其他的一些條文"},{"start":20928.45,"end":20930.45,"text":"是我們有很多的提案"},{"start":20930.45,"end":20932.45,"text":"11 12的文字"},{"start":20932.45,"end":20934.45,"text":"我們尊重你"},{"start":20934.45,"end":20936.45,"text":"我現在就照你的說11 12的文字先調出來"},{"start":20939.58,"end":20941.58,"text":"不只11 12啦"},{"start":20941.58,"end":20943.58,"text":"委員我就跟你請問"},{"start":20943.58,"end":20945.58,"text":"你要不要處理11 12"},{"start":20945.58,"end":20947.58,"text":"如果不要的話那我就不處理了"},{"start":20947.58,"end":20949.58,"text":"你要我現在馬上處理"},{"start":20949.58,"end":20951.58,"text":"11 12如果要處理當然可以處理"},{"start":20951.58,"end":20953.58,"text":"如果現場委員沒有意見的話"},{"start":20953.58,"end":20955.58,"text":"但不是我啊我的意思是說"},{"start":20955.58,"end":20957.58,"text":"今天除了11 12我們還有很多的條文"},{"start":20957.58,"end":20959.58,"text":"是在場提案的委員"},{"start":20959.58,"end":20961.58,"text":"甚至不在場的提案委員他們都不在現場"},{"start":20961.58,"end":20963.58,"text":"那你如果是保留"},{"start":20963.58,"end":20965.58,"text":"我是希望能夠保留在委員會"},{"start":20965.58,"end":20967.58,"text":"因為其實周偉你還有"},{"start":20967.58,"end":20969.58,"text":"權力可以排案在8月底之前你其實"},{"start":20969.58,"end":20971.58,"text":"還有多次可以排案"},{"start":20971.58,"end":20973.58,"text":"那我覺得讓大家都到的時候"},{"start":20973.58,"end":20975.58,"text":"其實大家一起來討論"},{"start":20975.58,"end":20977.58,"text":"那個時候大家才會有共識"},{"start":20977.58,"end":20979.58,"text":"而不是現在我就決定說"},{"start":20979.58,"end":20981.58,"text":"我要送院會去處理"},{"start":20981.58,"end":20983.58,"text":"送院會去處理的時候其實"},{"start":20983.58,"end":20985.58,"text":"那不在場的這些委員的意見呢"},{"start":20985.58,"end":20987.58,"text":"他們的提案的重點呢"},{"start":20987.58,"end":20989.58,"text":"這些東西有沒有辦法被實質的納入進去討論"},{"start":20989.58,"end":20991.58,"text":"我覺得這個已經失去了"},{"start":20991.58,"end":20993.58,"text":"委員會的中心思想了啦"},{"start":20993.58,"end":20995.58,"text":"好以上"},{"start":20995.03,"end":20997.03,"text":"好 胡理華委員請簡單發言"},{"start":20997.03,"end":20999.03,"text":"謝謝主席齁 那我也代表一下"},{"start":20999.03,"end":21001.03,"text":"那個陳培宇委員跟吳思堯委員"},{"start":21001.03,"end":21005.03,"text":"因為他們也很想參與討論也都有版本"},{"start":21005.03,"end":21007.03,"text":"他們要來了嗎"},{"start":21007.03,"end":21011.03,"text":"不是啊 就是因為禮拜五的晚上突然臨時變更議程啊"},{"start":21011.03,"end":21013.03,"text":"他的機票買什麼時候"},{"start":21013.03,"end":21015.03,"text":"我如果沒改的話"},{"start":21015.03,"end":21017.03,"text":"是 那我們的意思是說"},{"start":21017.03,"end":21021.03,"text":"既然今天都有版本的委員不在場"},{"start":21021.03,"end":21023.03,"text":"那也希望"},{"start":21023.03,"end":21027.03,"text":"就是在這樣的一個保留在委員會之下"},{"start":21027.03,"end":21029.03,"text":"我們也很樂意"},{"start":21029.03,"end":21031.03,"text":"下一次您也可以再排一次"},{"start":21031.03,"end":21033.03,"text":"讓我們可以充分的討論"},{"start":21033.03,"end":21035.03,"text":"我只是針對沒有來的"},{"start":21035.03,"end":21037.03,"text":"有版本的委員"},{"start":21037.03,"end":21039.03,"text":"因為今天對他們來講真的是太唐突了"},{"start":21039.03,"end":21041.03,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":21041.03,"end":21043.03,"text":"好"},{"start":21043.03,"end":21045.03,"text":"下次不要去這麼多天"},{"start":21045.03,"end":21047.03,"text":"好來"},{"start":21049.1,"end":21051.1,"text":"蘇彬委員"},{"start":21051.1,"end":21053.1,"text":"好 謝謝主席齁"},{"start":21053.1,"end":21055.1,"text":"因為剛才有要說要討論的部分"},{"start":21055.1,"end":21057.1,"text":"應該是在有保留的嘛 對不對"},{"start":21057.1,"end":21059.1,"text":"剛才都討論過說"},{"start":21059.1,"end":21061.1,"text":"我們亂一輪了"},{"start":21061.1,"end":21063.1,"text":"那是現在還有保留的部分對不對"},{"start":21063.1,"end":21065.1,"text":"還是都沒有保留"},{"start":21065.1,"end":21067.1,"text":"都沒有保留的話"},{"start":21067.1,"end":21069.1,"text":"那就應該可以送出委員會"},{"start":21069.1,"end":21071.1,"text":"除非是還有保留的話"},{"start":21071.1,"end":21073.1,"text":"那就是還在委員會裡面再做一次政黨協商啊"},{"start":21073.1,"end":21075.1,"text":"不然都沒有表"},{"start":21075.56,"end":21077.56,"text":"會啊會再做政黨協商"},{"start":21077.56,"end":21079.56,"text":"在委員會裡面做政黨協商就好啦"},{"start":21079.56,"end":21081.56,"text":"應該是這樣子啊"},{"start":21081.56,"end":21083.56,"text":"好現在清點人數完畢喔"},{"start":21083.56,"end":21085.56,"text":"八人不含主席現在開始表決"},{"start":21085.56,"end":21087.56,"text":"贊成"},{"start":21086.54,"end":21088.54,"text":"我們現在要送出委員會"},{"start":21090.09,"end":21092.09,"text":"欸 等一下 我確定一下"},{"start":21094.08,"end":21096.08,"text":"因為剛剛有意義嘛 要保留嘛"},{"start":21106.44,"end":21108.44,"text":"好 我們贊成保留送委員會處理"},{"start":21108.44,"end":21110.44,"text":"送院會處理"},{"start":21110.44,"end":21112.44,"text":"對不起 更正"},{"start":21112.44,"end":21114.44,"text":"我們現在舉手投票"},{"start":21114.44,"end":21116.44,"text":"贊成保留"},{"start":21116.44,"end":21118.44,"text":"送院會處理"},{"start":21118.44,"end":21120.44,"text":"也就是要出委員會"},{"start":21120.43,"end":21122.43,"text":"請舉手投票"},{"start":21124.48,"end":21126.48,"text":"好 四位 謝謝"},{"start":21126.27,"end":21128.27,"text":"反對"},{"start":21128.02,"end":21130.02,"text":"要保留在委員會內"},{"start":21130.59,"end":21132.59,"text":"不要送出委員會的 請舉手"},{"start":21134.62,"end":21136.62,"text":"好 四位"},{"start":21136.81,"end":21138.81,"text":"來"},{"start":21140.39,"end":21142.39,"text":"表決結果 在場委員八人"},{"start":21142.39,"end":21144.39,"text":"贊成者四人 反對者四人"},{"start":21144.39,"end":21146.39,"text":"贊成者與反對者同數"},{"start":21146.39,"end":21148.39,"text":"現在"},{"start":21149.45,"end":21151.45,"text":"我們本席"},{"start":21151.14,"end":21153.14,"text":"要來做決定"},{"start":21153.01,"end":21155.01,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":21155.02,"end":21157.02,"text":"保留送出委員會"},{"start":21157.42,"end":21159.42,"text":"那來院會處理"},{"start":21159.69,"end":21161.69,"text":"所以 贊成者五人"},{"start":21162.04,"end":21164.04,"text":"反對者"},{"start":21164.13,"end":21166.13,"text":"四人 贊成者多數"},{"start":21166.13,"end":21168.13,"text":"本案通過"},{"start":21169.77,"end":21171.77,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢"},{"start":21171.77,"end":21173.77,"text":"作以下宣告"},{"start":21173.77,"end":21175.77,"text":"學校午餐及飲食教育條例相關查案"},{"start":21175.77,"end":21177.77,"text":"已全部審查完畢"},{"start":21177.77,"end":21179.77,"text":"並按擬據審查報告"},{"start":21179.77,"end":21181.77,"text":"提醒院會公決"},{"start":21181.77,"end":21183.77,"text":"本案是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":21186.56,"end":21188.56,"text":"好 由委員提要"},{"start":21188.56,"end":21190.56,"text":"本案需交由黨團協商"},{"start":21190.56,"end":21192.56,"text":"謝謝 院會討論時"},{"start":21192.56,"end":21194.56,"text":"由羅召集委員 庭委補充說明"},{"start":21195.99,"end":21197.99,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":21197.51,"end":21199.51,"text":"報告委員會"},{"start":21199.51,"end":21201.51,"text":"本次會議議程處理完畢 現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}