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本"},{"start":1986.56,"end":1989.6399999999999,"text":"事本願行政院函情審議"},{"start":1989.6399999999999,"end":1991.6399999999999,"text":"能源管理法部份條件修正草案"},{"start":1992.34,"end":1994.42,"text":"本問委員鄭天才等17人"},{"start":1994.42,"end":1995.9,"text":"委員徐心瑩等16人"},{"start":1995.9,"end":1997.46,"text":"委員楊雄英等23人"},{"start":1997.46,"end":1998.86,"text":"委員陳庭菲等20人"},{"start":1998.86,"end":2000.54,"text":"委員邱志偉等16人"},{"start":2000.54,"end":2003.54,"text":"分別擬具能源管理法部份條件修正草案等5案"},{"start":2004.21,"end":2006.21,"text":"6.本問委員郭國安等16人擬具"},{"start":2006.21,"end":2008.33,"text":"能源管理法增訂第19條之2"},{"start":2008.33,"end":2010.53,"text":"及第27條之1條件草案"},{"start":2010.53,"end":2012.93,"text":"7.本問委員鄭天才等16人擬具"},{"start":2012.93,"end":2015.21,"text":"能源管理法第2條條件修正草案"},{"start":2015.21,"end":2016.77,"text":"談事項合并詢答"},{"start":2016.77,"end":2018.53,"text":"經濟部部長龔明星報告後"},{"start":2018.53,"end":2020.6100000000001,"text":"委員邱一營等10人提出質詢"},{"start":2020.6100000000001,"end":2023.25,"text":"就由經濟部部長龔明星等及其答覆"},{"start":2023.25,"end":2024.93,"text":"登記發文委員除不在場者外"},{"start":2024.93,"end":2026.8500000000001,"text":"均以均以發言完畢詢答結束"},{"start":2026.8500000000001,"end":2028.97,"text":"委員謝一鳳 傅坤琦 蔡依宜"},{"start":2028.97,"end":2030.33,"text":"張家俊及賴榮"},{"start":2030.37,"end":2031.8899999999999,"text":"所提順利執行列入紀錄"},{"start":2031.8899999999999,"end":2032.8899999999999,"text":"刊登通報"},{"start":2033.26,"end":2035.06,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分"},{"start":2035.06,"end":2036.18,"text":"請相關單位於一週內"},{"start":2036.18,"end":2037.9,"text":"以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":2037.9,"end":2039.9,"text":"為沒有要求期限者從即鎖定"},{"start":2041.26,"end":2042.14,"text":"詢答結束"},{"start":2042.14,"end":2043.8600000000001,"text":"以上更安靜命定級繼續審查"},{"start":2043.8600000000001,"end":2044.8600000000001,"text":"散會 宣布完畢"},{"start":2045.96,"end":2047.04,"text":"好 請問各位同仁"},{"start":2047.04,"end":2048.6800000000003,"text":"上次會議事務有錯誤"},{"start":2049.93,"end":2051.81,"text":"沒有錯 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本運委員萬美齡等17人"},{"start":2090.5699999999997,"end":2092.6499999999996,"text":"為林黛樺等18人分別擬具"},{"start":2092.6499999999996,"end":2093.37,"text":"隨圖保持法"},{"start":2093.41,"end":2095.0499999999997,"text":"第2條調研修正草案"},{"start":2095.0499999999997,"end":2095.5699999999997,"text":"等月案"},{"start":2096.6499999999996,"end":2098.5299999999997,"text":"本運委員林建吉等16人擬具"},{"start":2098.5299999999997,"end":2101.0499999999997,"text":"隨圖保持法第33條調研修正草案"},{"start":2101.0499999999997,"end":2103.1299999999997,"text":"3 本運臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具"},{"start":2103.1299999999997,"end":2105.25,"text":"隨圖保持法第23條第32條"},{"start":2105.25,"end":2107.45,"text":"及第33條調研修正草案"},{"start":2107.45,"end":2108.77,"text":"3 繼續並按審查"},{"start":2108.77,"end":2110.6499999999996,"text":"1 本運委員謝一鳳等17人"},{"start":2110.6499999999996,"end":2112.0099999999998,"text":"委員萬美齡等17人"},{"start":2112.0099999999998,"end":2114.93,"text":"委員林大漢等18人分別擬具"},{"start":2114.93,"end":2116.0899999999997,"text":"三部地保育利用條例"},{"start":2116.0899999999997,"end":2118.1699999999996,"text":"第2條調研修正草案等3案"},{"start":2118.1699999999996,"end":2120.41,"text":"2 本運委員徐富貴等17人"},{"start":2120.41,"end":2122.73,"text":"委員羅志強等16人分別擬具"},{"start":2122.73,"end":2123.97,"text":"三部地保育利用條例"},{"start":2123.97,"end":2126.1699999999996,"text":"第15條調研修正草案等2案"},{"start":2126.5699999999997,"end":2128.93,"text":"本運委員鄭天才等17人擬具"},{"start":2128.93,"end":2130.0899999999997,"text":"三部地保育利用條例"},{"start":2130.0899999999997,"end":2133.0499999999997,"text":"第2條及第37條調研修正草案"},{"start":2133.0499999999997,"end":2135.5299999999997,"text":"4 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相併從害的一個"},{"start":2646.63,"end":2647.63,"text":"影響的時候"},{"start":2647.63,"end":2650.63,"text":"那事實上在天然災害救助辦法裡面"},{"start":2650.63,"end":2652.63,"text":"如果說病狀害是屬於"},{"start":2652.63,"end":2654.63,"text":"因為天后異常引起"},{"start":2654.63,"end":2656.63,"text":"全面性普遍性跟一致性的"},{"start":2656.63,"end":2657.83,"text":"損失的時候"},{"start":2657.83,"end":2659.83,"text":"那我們可以在天然災害裡面"},{"start":2659.83,"end":2662.63,"text":"用專案認定的方式來處理"},{"start":2662.63,"end":2664.63,"text":"所以也建議不予修正"},{"start":2664.63,"end":2666.63,"text":"那至於說野生動物"},{"start":2666.63,"end":2668.63,"text":"危害的種類"},{"start":2668.63,"end":2670.63,"text":"也把它納入定義的部分"},{"start":2673.5800000000004,"end":2675.5800000000004,"text":"上次我在委員會也報告"},{"start":2675.5800000000004,"end":2677.5800000000004,"text":"針對動物的這些"},{"start":2677.5800000000004,"end":2679.5800000000004,"text":"這些危害的部分"},{"start":2679.5800000000004,"end":2681.5800000000004,"text":"我們已經進行好"},{"start":2681.5800000000004,"end":2683.5800000000004,"text":"相關的可能的一些規劃"},{"start":2683.5800000000004,"end":2685.5800000000004,"text":"那我在這邊跟委員報告"},{"start":2685.5800000000004,"end":2687.5800000000004,"text":"就是我們立法完了以後"},{"start":2687.5800000000004,"end":2689.5800000000004,"text":"一定要可執行"},{"start":2689.5800000000004,"end":2691.5800000000004,"text":"那現在的侯害"},{"start":2691.5800000000004,"end":2693.5800000000004,"text":"最主要大家所關注的侯害的部分"},{"start":2693.5800000000004,"end":2695.5800000000004,"text":"那這兩個月來"},{"start":2695.5800000000004,"end":2697.5800000000004,"text":"我們還在找一個新的"},{"start":2697.5800000000004,"end":2699.5800000000004,"text":"有沒有更好的方法"},{"start":2699.5800000000004,"end":2701.5800000000004,"text":"因為當你沒有辦法去計算"},{"start":2701.58,"end":2703.58,"text":"那如果說有些損失的時候"},{"start":2703.58,"end":2705.58,"text":"還有它的一致性跟普遍性的時候"},{"start":2705.58,"end":2707.58,"text":"那很難"},{"start":2707.58,"end":2709.58,"text":"去因為法的"},{"start":2709.58,"end":2711.58,"text":"要求而去做一個落實"},{"start":2711.58,"end":2713.58,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":2713.58,"end":2715.58,"text":"我們是建議說先不要"},{"start":2715.58,"end":2717.58,"text":"修正"},{"start":2717.58,"end":2719.58,"text":"因為相關的野生動物"},{"start":2719.58,"end":2721.58,"text":"在清洗這個農田的時候"},{"start":2721.58,"end":2723.58,"text":"它的樣態非常多"},{"start":2723.58,"end":2725.58,"text":"那它的樣態也必定是單一因子"},{"start":2725.58,"end":2727.58,"text":"那等到我們真正的"},{"start":2727.58,"end":2729.58,"text":"跟外界"},{"start":2729.58,"end":2731.58,"text":"跟農民討論完"},{"start":2731.58,"end":2733.58,"text":"如果有適當的一個機會"},{"start":2733.58,"end":2735.58,"text":"我想我們也會用天然災害救助辦法裡面的"},{"start":2735.58,"end":2737.58,"text":"相關的一個規定"},{"start":2737.58,"end":2739.58,"text":"來做辦理"},{"start":2739.58,"end":2741.58,"text":"這是第三條的一個回應"},{"start":2745.19,"end":2747.19,"text":"第三條我們看到的"},{"start":2747.19,"end":2749.19,"text":"跟原條文差別是在"},{"start":2749.19,"end":2751.19,"text":"第十九款"},{"start":2751.57,"end":2753.57,"text":"是不是"},{"start":2753.57,"end":2755.57,"text":"第十九款只有講到"},{"start":2755.33,"end":2757.33,"text":"你剛剛有回應的部分好像有超出我們這個修正範圍"},{"start":2759.48,"end":2761.48,"text":"這裡面沒講到受害啊"},{"start":2761.51,"end":2763.51,"text":"這裡講的是"},{"start":2763.51,"end":2765.51,"text":"他們有的在第六十條也有提到"},{"start":2765.51,"end":2767.51,"text":"那是後面的事情啦"},{"start":2767.51,"end":2769.51,"text":"那你就是要講第六十條嘛"},{"start":2769.51,"end":2771.51,"text":"那你就是一併回應就對了"},{"start":2771.51,"end":2773.51,"text":"所以你是回應第六十條我們李委員的部分啦"},{"start":2773.51,"end":2775.51,"text":"那在這裡"},{"start":2775.51,"end":2777.51,"text":"不是吧"},{"start":2777.51,"end":2779.51,"text":"所以他回應到後面我們就"},{"start":2779.51,"end":2781.51,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":2781.51,"end":2783.51,"text":"有其他的委員"},{"start":2783.51,"end":2785.51,"text":"你到這一條再來說就好了好不好"},{"start":2786.26,"end":2788.26,"text":"因為他只是寫法上的問題而已"},{"start":2788.26,"end":2790.26,"text":"因為目前"},{"start":2790.26,"end":2792.26,"text":"定義寫在第三條啦"},{"start":2792.26,"end":2794.26,"text":"但是有的委員是在第六十條的時候"},{"start":2794.26,"end":2796.26,"text":"把這個部分放進去"},{"start":2796.26,"end":2798.26,"text":"我了解啦"},{"start":2798.26,"end":2800.26,"text":"但是你回應的時候要說明標的"},{"start":2800.26,"end":2802.26,"text":"我們在看第三條的時候"},{"start":2802.26,"end":2804.26,"text":"是九款並沒有講到受害"},{"start":2804.26,"end":2806.26,"text":"那其實呢其他委員"},{"start":2806.26,"end":2808.26,"text":"很多委員的提案呢"},{"start":2808.26,"end":2810.26,"text":"我們都相對可以理解"},{"start":2810.26,"end":2812.26,"text":"那是不是這一條"},{"start":2812.26,"end":2814.26,"text":"九款呢"},{"start":2813.79,"end":2815.79,"text":"的確在天然災這邊"},{"start":2815.79,"end":2821.79,"text":"原來的颱風、焚風、龍捲風、豪雨、淫雨、冰暴、寒流、旱災或地震所造成的災害"},{"start":2821.79,"end":2823.79,"text":"這是天然災害救助辦法裡面有規定的"},{"start":2823.79,"end":2825.79,"text":"對其實就已經有規定"},{"start":2825.79,"end":2829.79,"text":"但是呢氣候異常導致的病蟲害之災害啊"},{"start":2829.79,"end":2831.79,"text":"我想確認一下喔"},{"start":2831.79,"end":2833.79,"text":"你們有沒有辦法去認定氣候異常跟病蟲害之間的關聯性"},{"start":2833.79,"end":2835.79,"text":"這個就是要看個案喔"},{"start":2835.79,"end":2837.79,"text":"因為"},{"start":2837.79,"end":2839.79,"text":"病蟲害如果是因為"},{"start":2839.79,"end":2841.79,"text":"天然就是天候的異常"},{"start":2841.79,"end":2843.79,"text":"導致病蟲害的發生的頻度"},{"start":2843.79,"end":2845.79,"text":"在瞬間的增加"},{"start":2845.79,"end":2847.79,"text":"那那個時候就可以被認定"},{"start":2847.79,"end":2849.79,"text":"是因為天然災害所影響的"},{"start":2849.79,"end":2851.79,"text":"那如果說是一般的"},{"start":2851.79,"end":2853.79,"text":"病蟲害的話"},{"start":2853.79,"end":2855.79,"text":"因為天氣我們遇到是每天都遇到"},{"start":2855.79,"end":2859.79,"text":"所以他必須要有一些普遍性跟一致性的部分"},{"start":2859.79,"end":2861.79,"text":"所以這個部分會變成"},{"start":2861.79,"end":2863.79,"text":"個案的認定"},{"start":2863.79,"end":2865.79,"text":"他不像颱風、豪雨這樣子"},{"start":2865.79,"end":2867.79,"text":"是一下子就知道是全面的或是區域性的"},{"start":2867.79,"end":2869.79,"text":"那你們舉個例子喔"},{"start":2869.79,"end":2871.79,"text":"我這邊先給你一個提示啦"},{"start":2871.79,"end":2873.79,"text":"其實沒有錯啦"},{"start":2873.79,"end":2875.79,"text":"在這個"},{"start":2875.53,"end":2877.53,"text":"如果是局部氣候的異常導致的"},{"start":2877.53,"end":2879.53,"text":"譬如說你雨水多了、雨水少了"},{"start":2879.53,"end":2881.53,"text":"有些病蟲他的生長"},{"start":2881.53,"end":2883.53,"text":"就有異常的改變"},{"start":2883.53,"end":2885.53,"text":"但是舉例"},{"start":2885.53,"end":2887.53,"text":"但是不是在台灣的天候異常"},{"start":2887.53,"end":2889.53,"text":"他所造成的這些病蟲害"},{"start":2889.53,"end":2891.53,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":2891.53,"end":2893.53,"text":"有一陣子呢在中國地區"},{"start":2893.53,"end":2895.53,"text":"他們的蝗蟲"},{"start":2895.53,"end":2897.53,"text":"大量的增生就到台灣來侵蝕"},{"start":2897.53,"end":2899.53,"text":"那這個時候"},{"start":2899.53,"end":2901.53,"text":"因為台灣並沒有氣候異常嘛"},{"start":2901.53,"end":2903.53,"text":"是對岸嘛"},{"start":2903.53,"end":2905.53,"text":"在這裡我們農業部怎麼去認定"},{"start":2905.53,"end":2907.53,"text":"因為這裡的意思是說"},{"start":2907.53,"end":2909.53,"text":"好像在這裡所指的天然災害"},{"start":2909.53,"end":2911.53,"text":"是指台灣地區"},{"start":2911.53,"end":2913.53,"text":"因台灣地理區域上的天然災害"},{"start":2913.53,"end":2915.53,"text":"導致的"},{"start":2915.53,"end":2917.53,"text":"氣候異常所導致的"},{"start":2917.53,"end":2919.53,"text":"病蟲害"},{"start":2919.53,"end":2921.53,"text":"那我們可以"},{"start":2921.53,"end":2923.53,"text":"那如果在其他地區的氣候異常"},{"start":2923.53,"end":2925.53,"text":"導致台灣蒙受到的病蟲害災害"},{"start":2925.53,"end":2927.53,"text":"農業部有辦法認定嗎"},{"start":2927.53,"end":2929.53,"text":"我想跟委員報告"},{"start":2929.53,"end":2931.53,"text":"你所舉的例子"},{"start":2931.53,"end":2933.53,"text":"就是類似秋行軍蟲"},{"start":2933.53,"end":2935.53,"text":"那我們現在的天然災害"},{"start":2935.53,"end":2937.53,"text":"的定義一定是針對"},{"start":2937.53,"end":2939.53,"text":"台灣遭受的天然災害"},{"start":2939.53,"end":2941.53,"text":"所造成的農業的影響"},{"start":2941.53,"end":2943.53,"text":"我們才會去處理"},{"start":2943.53,"end":2945.53,"text":"那如果說國外"},{"start":2945.53,"end":2947.53,"text":"造成的天然災害的"},{"start":2947.53,"end":2949.53,"text":"異常造成一些像"},{"start":2949.53,"end":2951.53,"text":"秋行軍蟲由境外"},{"start":2951.53,"end":2953.53,"text":"進來的這種入侵的"},{"start":2953.53,"end":2955.53,"text":"這些種我們都是用專案的方式"},{"start":2955.53,"end":2957.53,"text":"去做撲殺跟處理"},{"start":2957.53,"end":2959.53,"text":"跟救助"},{"start":2959.5,"end":2961.5,"text":"所以你的意思是說在目前我們"},{"start":2961.5,"end":2963.5,"text":"修訂的本法"},{"start":2963.5,"end":2965.5,"text":"就是我們農花條例當中"},{"start":2965.76,"end":2967.76,"text":"就算沒有訂出像秋行軍蟲"},{"start":2967.76,"end":2969.76,"text":"這樣的一個病蟲害"},{"start":2969.76,"end":2971.76,"text":"我們一樣農業部"},{"start":2971.76,"end":2973.76,"text":"可以在我們的農業"},{"start":2973.76,"end":2975.76,"text":"天然災害救助辦法當中"},{"start":2975.76,"end":2977.76,"text":"予以專案認定是不是這樣子"},{"start":2977.76,"end":2979.76,"text":"我們也不用天然不動用到天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":2979.76,"end":2981.76,"text":"我們是針對重大的"},{"start":2981.76,"end":2983.76,"text":"這些異病蟲害"},{"start":2983.76,"end":2985.76,"text":"從國外導入的時候"},{"start":2985.76,"end":2987.76,"text":"而且是不是人為導入的時候"},{"start":2987.76,"end":2989.76,"text":"那我們會"},{"start":2989.76,"end":2991.76,"text":"在行政院的同意之下"},{"start":2991.76,"end":2993.76,"text":"我們會開啟專案的一個救助"},{"start":2993.76,"end":2995.76,"text":"跟相當的移除"},{"start":2995.76,"end":2997.76,"text":"那秋行軍蟲就是一個例子"},{"start":2997.76,"end":2999.76,"text":"就是當初開始的時候我們在處理的"},{"start":2999.76,"end":3001.76,"text":"包括農藥的防治的話"},{"start":3001.76,"end":3003.76,"text":"都是由中央政府這邊"},{"start":3003.76,"end":3005.76,"text":"來提供經費給地方政府"},{"start":3005.76,"end":3007.76,"text":"發給農民的部分"},{"start":3007.41,"end":3009.41,"text":"好那主席跟委員也爭取一下"},{"start":3009.41,"end":3011.41,"text":"那我是覺得第十九款"},{"start":3011.41,"end":3013.41,"text":"既然委員提案了我們予以尊重"},{"start":3013.41,"end":3015.41,"text":"是不是那個豆號後面"},{"start":3015.41,"end":3017.41,"text":"或因氣候異常導致發生病蟲害之災害"},{"start":3017.41,"end":3019.41,"text":"那麼依主管部"},{"start":3019.41,"end":3021.41,"text":"部會的說明"},{"start":3021.41,"end":3023.41,"text":"是不是我們就保留到"},{"start":3023.41,"end":3025.41,"text":"那個豆點之前"},{"start":3025.41,"end":3027.41,"text":"因為這個跟天然災害救助辦法是一樣"},{"start":3027.41,"end":3029.41,"text":"既然委員有提案了"},{"start":3029.41,"end":3031.41,"text":"那雖然行政部門覺得"},{"start":3031.41,"end":3033.41,"text":"有重複規定"},{"start":3033.41,"end":3035.41,"text":"但是訂在我們的農法條例當中"},{"start":3035.41,"end":3037.41,"text":"天然災害重複的序名"},{"start":3037.41,"end":3039.41,"text":"除非農業部認為說"},{"start":3039.41,"end":3041.41,"text":"寫了之後掛一六萬不如不要寫"},{"start":3041.41,"end":3043.41,"text":"不然的話如果跟既有的"},{"start":3043.41,"end":3045.41,"text":"農業部天然災害救助辦法是一致的"},{"start":3045.41,"end":3047.41,"text":"那麼我們就應該尊重委員的提案"},{"start":3047.41,"end":3049.41,"text":"我跟委員先報告一下"},{"start":3049.41,"end":3051.41,"text":"因為天然災害用到這個字"},{"start":3051.41,"end":3053.41,"text":"我們在一般法的前面的"},{"start":3053.41,"end":3055.41,"text":"定義的話就是後面的條文"},{"start":3055.41,"end":3057.41,"text":"經常會用到"},{"start":3057.41,"end":3059.41,"text":"那天然災害這個定義只在第六十條"},{"start":3059.41,"end":3061.41,"text":"用到"},{"start":3060.72,"end":3062.72,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":3062.72,"end":3064.72,"text":"第二點就是說天然災害因為剛才在災防法"},{"start":3064.72,"end":3066.72,"text":"災防就法已經有定了"},{"start":3066.78,"end":3068.78,"text":"你們這個不一樣"},{"start":3068.78,"end":3070.78,"text":"你去看一下"},{"start":3070.78,"end":3072.78,"text":"你們這個內容是天然災害救助辦法裡面的內容"},{"start":3072.78,"end":3074.78,"text":"不是災防法的內容"},{"start":3074.78,"end":3076.78,"text":"沒有"},{"start":3076.78,"end":3078.78,"text":"災防法的定義裡面就是風災水災"},{"start":3081.02,"end":3083.02,"text":"漢災、鄭災、寒海、土石流、大規模崩塌等天然災害"},{"start":3088,"end":3090,"text":"我念一下"},{"start":3090,"end":3092,"text":"你們目前農業部的天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3092,"end":3094,"text":"是指颱風、焚風、龍捲風、"},{"start":3094,"end":3096,"text":"蠔雨、淫雨、冰雹、"},{"start":3096,"end":3098,"text":"寒流、旱災或地震"},{"start":3098,"end":3100,"text":"所造成的災害"},{"start":3100,"end":3102,"text":"其實這個條款是跟你們的救助辦法"},{"start":3102,"end":3104,"text":"抄出來的"},{"start":3104,"end":3106,"text":"不要說抄啦,就是引引出來的"},{"start":3106,"end":3108,"text":"你們不要再去自我否定你們的救助辦法"},{"start":3108,"end":3110,"text":"那如果說你"},{"start":3110,"end":3112,"text":"災害防救法的順序內容"},{"start":3112,"end":3114,"text":"不完全一致"},{"start":3114,"end":3116,"text":"所以你是說第四九款我們不要規定"},{"start":3116,"end":3118,"text":"我們直接在第二,第六十條的部分"},{"start":3118,"end":3120,"text":"就直接把它寫在那裡面"},{"start":3120,"end":3122,"text":"那本席可以接受"},{"start":3122,"end":3124,"text":"就是說你們認為"},{"start":3124,"end":3126,"text":"這個第十九款就直接放在第六十條的部分"},{"start":3126,"end":3128,"text":"那六十條的部分"},{"start":3128,"end":3130,"text":"我們就是以你們的天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3130,"end":3132,"text":"那幾個款項"},{"start":3132,"end":3134,"text":"是不是這個意思"},{"start":3134,"end":3136,"text":"我再跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3136,"end":3138,"text":"我們把這個東西放在天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3138,"end":3140,"text":"如果你看天然災害救助辦法的第四條裡面"},{"start":3140,"end":3142,"text":"還有加一個第二項"},{"start":3142,"end":3144,"text":"就是我們剛才講的您所念的"},{"start":3144,"end":3146,"text":"我們還有一個前項以外的天然災害發生"},{"start":3146,"end":3148,"text":"且有救助之必要時"},{"start":3148,"end":3150,"text":"得由中央助管機關專案認定"},{"start":3150,"end":3152,"text":"所以這個就是我們剛才講的"},{"start":3152,"end":3154,"text":"如果遇到病蟲害的時候"},{"start":3154,"end":3156,"text":"會放在那個辦法裡面去定盤"},{"start":3156,"end":3158,"text":"而有一個比較適度的彈性"},{"start":3163.42,"end":3165.42,"text":"好那我再確認一下"},{"start":3165.42,"end":3167.42,"text":"因為我看六十條主席"},{"start":3167.42,"end":3169.42,"text":"因為大家講來講去都會直接跟六十條掛鉤"},{"start":3169.42,"end":3171.42,"text":"那六十條的內容"},{"start":3171.42,"end":3175.42,"text":"其實委員就是要把天然災害救助辦法裡面的定義"},{"start":3175.42,"end":3177.42,"text":"放到第六十條"},{"start":3177.42,"end":3179.42,"text":"那這個除非我們是一併討論說"},{"start":3179.42,"end":3181.42,"text":"你們認為寫在母法裡面"},{"start":3181.42,"end":3183.42,"text":"反而侷限了未來天然災害救助辦法的修訂"},{"start":3183.42,"end":3185.42,"text":"那不然的話"},{"start":3185.42,"end":3187.42,"text":"目前那項第一項"},{"start":3188.71,"end":3190.71,"text":"委員都把它放進來了"},{"start":3190.71,"end":3192.71,"text":"但是第二項沒有放進來"},{"start":3192.71,"end":3194.71,"text":"那第二項沒有放進來反而造成了"},{"start":3194.71,"end":3196.71,"text":"未來天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3196.71,"end":3198.71,"text":"它的執法的層次被提高到母法之後"},{"start":3198.71,"end":3200.71,"text":"母法寫死了"},{"start":3200.71,"end":3202.71,"text":"未來你們天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3202.71,"end":3204.71,"text":"如果要擴充會受到影響"},{"start":3204.71,"end":3206.71,"text":"所以你們認為是不是保留在"},{"start":3206.71,"end":3208.71,"text":"天然災害救助辦法就可以了"},{"start":3208.71,"end":3210.71,"text":"是這個意思嗎"},{"start":3210.71,"end":3212.71,"text":"所以那是不是我建議主席我們這個第三條"},{"start":3212.71,"end":3214.71,"text":"的第十九款"},{"start":3214.71,"end":3216.71,"text":"跟第六十條很多委員的提案"},{"start":3216.71,"end":3218.71,"text":"是不是一併討論"},{"start":3218.71,"end":3220.71,"text":"到底大家認不認為"},{"start":3220.71,"end":3222.71,"text":"應該把天然災害救助辦法當中的第一項跟第二項"},{"start":3222.71,"end":3226.71,"text":"或者是放到第三條的第十九款"},{"start":3226.71,"end":3228.71,"text":"或者就是放在第六十條的完整內容"},{"start":3228.71,"end":3230.71,"text":"那不過我現在看起來"},{"start":3230.71,"end":3232.71,"text":"不管是目前委員提案的第三條第十九款"},{"start":3232.71,"end":3234.71,"text":"還是第六十條的第二項"},{"start":3234.71,"end":3236.71,"text":"其實並沒有完整的把天然災害救助辦法裡面的第一項第二項放進去"},{"start":3236.71,"end":3238.71,"text":"的確會有一點掛一漏萬之魚"},{"start":3238.71,"end":3240.71,"text":"是不是請問"},{"start":3240.71,"end":3242.71,"text":"那如果我們現在看起來"},{"start":3242.71,"end":3244.71,"text":"我們來討論看看第六十條跟第三條第十九款"},{"start":3244.71,"end":3246.71,"text":"一起"},{"start":3246.71,"end":3248.71,"text":"是不是請主席"},{"start":3248.71,"end":3250.71,"text":"我們來討論看看第六十條跟第三條第十九款"},{"start":3250.71,"end":3252.71,"text":"一起"},{"start":3253.75,"end":3255.75,"text":"我們先請"},{"start":3255.75,"end":3257.75,"text":"因為還有委員"},{"start":3257.75,"end":3259.75,"text":"所以政天才我們方委員在李玉琳委員"},{"start":3261.29,"end":3263.29,"text":"這個"},{"start":3263.54,"end":3265.54,"text":"邱振軍委員之所以會"},{"start":3266.81,"end":3268.81,"text":"希望把這個"},{"start":3268.9,"end":3270.9,"text":"農業天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3272.87,"end":3274.87,"text":"原來所訂的第四條"},{"start":3275.97,"end":3277.97,"text":"再"},{"start":3277.09,"end":3279.09,"text":"認為需要提升到法律的位階"},{"start":3280.87,"end":3282.87,"text":"最主要"},{"start":3282.94,"end":3284.94,"text":"這個農業天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3286.59,"end":3288.59,"text":"的一級"},{"start":3287.91,"end":3291.91,"text":"就是我們今天要審查的農業發展條例"},{"start":3292.51,"end":3294.51,"text":"所授權訂定的"},{"start":3294.6,"end":3296.6,"text":"那我們現在"},{"start":3296.31,"end":3298.31,"text":"立法委員或是民眾"},{"start":3298.96,"end":3300.96,"text":"或是地方政府機關"},{"start":3301,"end":3303,"text":"常常會建議你們"},{"start":3303,"end":3305,"text":"應該包含這個包含這個"},{"start":3305.47,"end":3307.47,"text":"但是你們就會限收在"},{"start":3308.17,"end":3310.17,"text":"你們的條文"},{"start":3310.11,"end":3312.11,"text":"第四條"},{"start":3311.95,"end":3313.95,"text":"第四條雖然有寫"},{"start":3313.96,"end":3315.96,"text":"啊"},{"start":3315.23,"end":3319.23,"text":"這個另外好其他的得由中央主管機關專案論定制"},{"start":3320.74,"end":3322.74,"text":"那現在我們現在是"},{"start":3323.19,"end":3325.19,"text":"修法"},{"start":3324.73,"end":3326.73,"text":"把它明確定在"},{"start":3326.73,"end":3328.73,"text":"認為需要增加的把它列在這邊"},{"start":3329.59,"end":3331.59,"text":"以這個救生軍委員的提案"},{"start":3331.59,"end":3333.59,"text":"就是因氣候異常"},{"start":3333.59,"end":3335.59,"text":"導致發生病毒害"},{"start":3337.32,"end":3339.32,"text":"自在害"},{"start":3338.87,"end":3340.87,"text":"如果認為這個還不夠"},{"start":3341.26,"end":3343.26,"text":"我們可以再增加"},{"start":3343.26,"end":3345.26,"text":"或者是在這裡"},{"start":3345.26,"end":3347.26,"text":"也定"},{"start":3346.87,"end":3348.87,"text":"也增訂"},{"start":3348.77,"end":3350.77,"text":"得由中央主管機關專案論定制"},{"start":3350.77,"end":3352.77,"text":"提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3354.76,"end":3356.76,"text":"因為我們每一次建議的時候"},{"start":3357.28,"end":3359.28,"text":"你們就不修了"},{"start":3358.85,"end":3360.85,"text":"啊不累啊"},{"start":3360.2,"end":3362.2,"text":"沒事都很困難啊"},{"start":3362.2,"end":3364.2,"text":"才會"},{"start":3363.42,"end":3365.42,"text":"把它列為"},{"start":3365.01,"end":3367.01,"text":"提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3367.76,"end":3369.76,"text":"那為什麼這個"},{"start":3370.1,"end":3372.1,"text":"要列在第三條"},{"start":3372.09,"end":3374.09,"text":"啊"},{"start":3373.34,"end":3375.34,"text":"就是因為這邊是在講這個"},{"start":3376.58,"end":3378.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3378.58,"end":3380.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3380.58,"end":3382.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3382.58,"end":3384.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3384.58,"end":3386.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3386.58,"end":3388.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3388.58,"end":3390.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3390.58,"end":3392.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3392.58,"end":3394.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3394.58,"end":3396.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3396.58,"end":3398.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3398.58,"end":3400.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3400.58,"end":3402.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3402.58,"end":3404.58,"text":"所以我們就不修了"},{"start":3377.98,"end":3379.98,"text":"啊"},{"start":3379.5,"end":3381.5,"text":"我的建議還是說這個"},{"start":3381.5,"end":3383.5,"text":"當然我們"},{"start":3383.5,"end":3385.5,"text":"這李議員委員"},{"start":3385.5,"end":3387.5,"text":"在這個第60條裡面"},{"start":3387.5,"end":3389.5,"text":"也有提到啦"},{"start":3389.5,"end":3391.5,"text":"那因為這個是在講"},{"start":3391.94,"end":3393.94,"text":"定義的嘛"},{"start":3393.94,"end":3395.94,"text":"就是講定義"},{"start":3395.94,"end":3397.94,"text":"所以就那個立法體力的話"},{"start":3397.94,"end":3399.94,"text":"就會放在這個"},{"start":3399.94,"end":3401.94,"text":"既然我們這個"},{"start":3401.94,"end":3403.94,"text":"這個農業發展條例"},{"start":3403.01,"end":3405.01,"text":"有這個"},{"start":3404.48,"end":3406.48,"text":"用此定義"},{"start":3406.48,"end":3408.48,"text":"就立法體力的話"},{"start":3408.48,"end":3410.48,"text":"就把它併在一起"},{"start":3411.95,"end":3413.95,"text":"這個我建議農業部"},{"start":3414.77,"end":3416.77,"text":"你們應該就"},{"start":3416.85,"end":3418.85,"text":"立法委員所提的提案"},{"start":3420.48,"end":3422.48,"text":"就這個第19"},{"start":3422.48,"end":3424.48,"text":"第19款而言"},{"start":3424.73,"end":3426.73,"text":"哪些還需要把它"},{"start":3427.63,"end":3429.63,"text":"定的會更明確會更好"},{"start":3430.74,"end":3432.74,"text":"而不是去否定說它放在這裡"},{"start":3432.74,"end":3434.74,"text":"因為"},{"start":3434.26,"end":3436.26,"text":"你本來就要定義嘛"},{"start":3436.12,"end":3438.12,"text":"你現在的定義本來是放在辦法"},{"start":3438.89,"end":3440.89,"text":"那現在立法委員希望把它提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3442.95,"end":3444.95,"text":"我不要去否定它"},{"start":3444.95,"end":3446.95,"text":"而是說這個條文"},{"start":3446.95,"end":3448.95,"text":"這樣的寫法還少了什麼"},{"start":3448.95,"end":3450.95,"text":"因為經過這麼多年"},{"start":3452.07,"end":3454.07,"text":"的一個實施"},{"start":3454.07,"end":3456.07,"text":"那怎麼樣能夠把它強化"},{"start":3456.89,"end":3458.89,"text":"能夠"},{"start":3459.86,"end":3461.86,"text":"透過認裝啊"},{"start":3461.86,"end":3463.86,"text":"認定的都把它寫進去不是以後更明確嗎"},{"start":3464.59,"end":3466.59,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3466.59,"end":3468.59,"text":"我的建議是這樣以上"},{"start":3468.6,"end":3470.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3470.31,"end":3472.31,"text":"主席喔"},{"start":3472.31,"end":3474.31,"text":"我們今天針對產發條例的修法"},{"start":3474.31,"end":3476.31,"text":"我們都提了"},{"start":3476.31,"end":3478.31,"text":"很多次了"},{"start":3478.31,"end":3480.31,"text":"你們也質詢過了"},{"start":3480.31,"end":3482.31,"text":"然後我們條文也宣讀過了"},{"start":3482.31,"end":3484.31,"text":"但是我們就是要等行政院的版本進來"},{"start":3484.31,"end":3486.31,"text":"你們都一直不進來"},{"start":3486.31,"end":3488.31,"text":"我們大家來共同討論"},{"start":3488.31,"end":3490.31,"text":"所以今天我們主席特別排這個案子的話"},{"start":3490.31,"end":3492.31,"text":"我們也謝謝部長李青志到"},{"start":3492.31,"end":3494.31,"text":"來討論這個案子"},{"start":3494.31,"end":3496.31,"text":"那剛剛這個第三條"},{"start":3496.31,"end":3498.31,"text":"我們中委員有說"},{"start":3498.31,"end":3500.31,"text":"我們第60條是一樣的"},{"start":3500.31,"end":3502.31,"text":"那我們為什麼要在這個"},{"start":3502.31,"end":3504.31,"text":"母法裡面來提這個"},{"start":3504.31,"end":3506.31,"text":"最重要是我們產發條例裡面"},{"start":3506.31,"end":3508.31,"text":"並沒有明確的"},{"start":3508.31,"end":3510.31,"text":"定義說我們天然災害的種類"},{"start":3510.31,"end":3512.31,"text":"種類沒有定義出來"},{"start":3512.31,"end":3514.31,"text":"雖然剛剛念出來的"},{"start":3514.31,"end":3516.31,"text":"什麼天災風災"},{"start":3516.31,"end":3518.31,"text":"冰雹還是說我們地震"},{"start":3518.31,"end":3520.31,"text":"等等這些並沒有說"},{"start":3520.31,"end":3522.31,"text":"我們農作物的這個受損的情形"},{"start":3522.31,"end":3524.31,"text":"還有其他的因素"},{"start":3524.31,"end":3526.31,"text":"那部長你說把這其他"},{"start":3526.31,"end":3528.31,"text":"因素給你們有專案"},{"start":3528.31,"end":3530.31,"text":"為什麼設專案"},{"start":3530.15,"end":3532.15,"text":"我們需要的就是給你們有法源"},{"start":3532.15,"end":3534.15,"text":"要不然的話我們母法"},{"start":3534.15,"end":3536.15,"text":"有你執法裡面沒有明確的"},{"start":3536.15,"end":3538.15,"text":"把這種類項目定出來的話"},{"start":3538.15,"end":3540.15,"text":"在執行的時候"},{"start":3540.15,"end":3542.15,"text":"會有摯愛男性或卡卡的地方"},{"start":3542.15,"end":3544.15,"text":"所以我們才說"},{"start":3544.15,"end":3546.15,"text":"希望把他把這天然災害的種類"},{"start":3546.15,"end":3548.15,"text":"明確出來"},{"start":3548.15,"end":3550.15,"text":"包括我們這天然災害裡面"},{"start":3550.15,"end":3552.15,"text":"不只是氣候的問題啊"},{"start":3552.15,"end":3554.15,"text":"還有野生的保護動物"},{"start":3554.15,"end":3556.15,"text":"這也會造成啊"},{"start":3556.15,"end":3558.15,"text":"剛剛部長也有講啊可能是猴子的問題"},{"start":3558.15,"end":3560.15,"text":"還有綠西瓜的問題"},{"start":3560.15,"end":3562.15,"text":"還有紅火蟻的問題"},{"start":3562.15,"end":3564.15,"text":"很多種我們就把明確定出來"},{"start":3564.15,"end":3566.15,"text":"讓你在執行執法的時候"},{"start":3566.15,"end":3568.15,"text":"有法源根據"},{"start":3568.15,"end":3570.15,"text":"這樣子的話我們的農民的災損啊"},{"start":3570.15,"end":3572.15,"text":"才能夠獲得保障"},{"start":3572.15,"end":3574.15,"text":"對我們農民才是公平的好不好"},{"start":3574.15,"end":3576.15,"text":"所以這個第十九條"},{"start":3576.15,"end":3578.15,"text":"不要不要把它廢掉"},{"start":3578.15,"end":3580.15,"text":"可以把它納入六十條裡面"},{"start":3580.15,"end":3582.15,"text":"我們把明確的定義確定種類"},{"start":3582.15,"end":3584.15,"text":"然後確定他的法源"},{"start":3584.15,"end":3586.15,"text":"讓我們執法更加公平公正"},{"start":3586.8,"end":3588.8,"text":"好謝謝謝謝委員的"},{"start":3589.39,"end":3591.39,"text":"可以回應了"},{"start":3591.18,"end":3593.18,"text":"謝謝委員的一些建議"},{"start":3593.18,"end":3595.18,"text":"那我想我分幾個層面"},{"start":3595.18,"end":3597.18,"text":"跟各位來說明"},{"start":3597.18,"end":3599.18,"text":"就是在法的設計上"},{"start":3599.18,"end":3601.18,"text":"有母法跟相關的辦法"},{"start":3601.18,"end":3603.18,"text":"那當然相關的辦法"},{"start":3603.18,"end":3605.18,"text":"最主要是作用法在執行面的部分"},{"start":3605.18,"end":3607.18,"text":"那我想各位都知道"},{"start":3607.18,"end":3609.18,"text":"這幾年天然災害救助"},{"start":3609.18,"end":3611.18,"text":"農業部一定是盡全力"},{"start":3611.18,"end":3613.18,"text":"甚至於都是用主動公告的方式"},{"start":3613.18,"end":3615.18,"text":"來第一時間協助農民"},{"start":3615.18,"end":3617.18,"text":"但是我們如果把"},{"start":3617.18,"end":3619.18,"text":"很多辦法裡面的條文"},{"start":3619.18,"end":3621.18,"text":"要把它搬到母法的時候"},{"start":3621.18,"end":3623.18,"text":"那我們考慮農村條例"},{"start":3623.18,"end":3625.18,"text":"有非常非常多的條例"},{"start":3625.18,"end":3627.18,"text":"它有相關的辦法"},{"start":3627.18,"end":3629.18,"text":"那相關的辦法都全部"},{"start":3629.24,"end":3631.24,"text":"放在母法的時候"},{"start":3631.51,"end":3633.51,"text":"就不會去呈現出它的一個重要性"},{"start":3633.51,"end":3635.51,"text":"所以我們用辦法的方式"},{"start":3635.51,"end":3637.51,"text":"有它的彈性"},{"start":3637.51,"end":3639.51,"text":"那這個彈性本身"},{"start":3639.51,"end":3641.51,"text":"我剛才說到的就是說"},{"start":3641.51,"end":3643.51,"text":"我們有一個第二項其他的方式"},{"start":3643.51,"end":3645.51,"text":"那其他的部分它是"},{"start":3645.51,"end":3647.51,"text":"比較不容易是直接的"},{"start":3647.51,"end":3649.51,"text":"天然災害它是因為天然災害"},{"start":3649.51,"end":3651.51,"text":"而影響的像病蟲害等這個部分"},{"start":3651.51,"end":3653.51,"text":"那它都要"},{"start":3653.69,"end":3655.69,"text":"一些專案的認定"},{"start":3655.69,"end":3657.69,"text":"而不是說只要病蟲害"},{"start":3657.69,"end":3659.69,"text":"它不是天然災害一種"},{"start":3659.69,"end":3661.69,"text":"它是因為受天然災害影響"},{"start":3661.69,"end":3663.69,"text":"而造成它的族群"},{"start":3663.69,"end":3665.69,"text":"那那個族群的話不是第一時間就可以判斷"},{"start":3665.69,"end":3667.69,"text":"所以我們必須去了解以後"},{"start":3667.69,"end":3669.69,"text":"才去做判斷"},{"start":3669.69,"end":3671.69,"text":"那第二個部分是"},{"start":3671.69,"end":3673.69,"text":"在整個的一個法的設計裡面"},{"start":3673.69,"end":3675.69,"text":"我想後續的這些"},{"start":3675.69,"end":3677.69,"text":"作為包括"},{"start":3677.69,"end":3679.69,"text":"專案認定的部分或是在"},{"start":3679.69,"end":3681.69,"text":"辦法裡面做修訂的部分會比較好"},{"start":3681.69,"end":3683.69,"text":"那最後回應就是剛才講的就是"},{"start":3683.69,"end":3685.69,"text":"我們在定義裡面"},{"start":3685.69,"end":3687.69,"text":"去寫的時候"},{"start":3687.69,"end":3689.69,"text":"我們在一個法會有"},{"start":3689.69,"end":3691.69,"text":"名詞定義是因為後面的條文"},{"start":3691.69,"end":3693.69,"text":"會經常用到"},{"start":3693.69,"end":3695.69,"text":"我們才會去定義"},{"start":3695.69,"end":3697.69,"text":"但是天然災害這幾個定義的話"},{"start":3697.69,"end":3699.69,"text":"只在60條出現"},{"start":3699.69,"end":3701.69,"text":"所以在60條出現的天然災害裡面"},{"start":3701.69,"end":3703.69,"text":"我們就回到我們的辦法去設計"},{"start":3703.69,"end":3705.69,"text":"所以這個法當初的設計"},{"start":3705.69,"end":3707.69,"text":"是這樣的方式"},{"start":3707.69,"end":3709.69,"text":"而且到目前為止也沒有特別自愛難行的部分"},{"start":3711.05,"end":3713.05,"text":"必須要去做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":3715.33,"end":3717.33,"text":"主席我先建議"},{"start":3717.33,"end":3719.33,"text":"因為我們剛剛這樣討論的話"},{"start":3719.33,"end":3721.33,"text":"就是第三條我們先把"},{"start":3721.33,"end":3723.33,"text":"邱政軍委員19條"},{"start":3723.33,"end":3725.33,"text":"放在第60條裡面"},{"start":3725.33,"end":3727.33,"text":"一併來解釋再討論"},{"start":3727.33,"end":3729.33,"text":"所以我們先把第三條過了"},{"start":3729.33,"end":3731.33,"text":"再往下走吧"},{"start":3731.48,"end":3733.48,"text":"第三條就沒有了"},{"start":3733.48,"end":3735.48,"text":"把19條放到"},{"start":3735.48,"end":3737.48,"text":"第19款放到"},{"start":3737.48,"end":3739.48,"text":"60條"},{"start":3739.48,"end":3741.48,"text":"我現在先這樣子"},{"start":3741.48,"end":3743.48,"text":"因為結構很清楚"},{"start":3743.48,"end":3745.48,"text":"就是說你天然災害是不是要定在第三條"},{"start":3745.48,"end":3747.48,"text":"的名詞的定義就這樣子"},{"start":3747.48,"end":3749.48,"text":"還是要放在第60條"},{"start":3749.48,"end":3751.48,"text":"我們先徵求在場委員"},{"start":3751.48,"end":3753.48,"text":"我們先確定他天然災害"},{"start":3753.48,"end":3755.48,"text":"的程序是要放在第"},{"start":3756.63,"end":3758.63,"text":"你要放在第19款還是要放在"},{"start":3758.63,"end":3760.63,"text":"不要放在19款"},{"start":3760.63,"end":3762.63,"text":"不要放在60條"},{"start":3765.38,"end":3767.38,"text":"這樣啊你如果"},{"start":3767.38,"end":3769.38,"text":"第三條第19款裡面"},{"start":3770.06,"end":3772.06,"text":"我覺得要加三個"},{"start":3772.99,"end":3774.99,"text":"也是中物保育法"},{"start":3774.99,"end":3776.99,"text":"第20條"},{"start":3776.99,"end":3778.99,"text":"你現在把他放在前面"},{"start":3778.99,"end":3780.99,"text":"農業部不承認啦"},{"start":3780.99,"end":3782.99,"text":"你不要跟我講辦法"},{"start":3782.99,"end":3784.99,"text":"我哪一次艦隊法的部分有所謂的不承認"},{"start":3784.99,"end":3786.99,"text":"沒有絕對沒有"},{"start":3786.99,"end":3788.99,"text":"我把他放進去你們才會承認啦"},{"start":3788.99,"end":3790.99,"text":"我每次拜託你說"},{"start":3790.99,"end":3792.99,"text":"河外從南部到北部了"},{"start":3792.99,"end":3794.99,"text":"國家都一直在反應"},{"start":3794.99,"end":3796.99,"text":"你每次講到天然災害"},{"start":3796.99,"end":3798.99,"text":"河外的話"},{"start":3798.99,"end":3800.99,"text":"你跟委員報告我上次已經承諾"},{"start":3800.99,"end":3802.99,"text":"河外的部分我們一定會來"},{"start":3802.99,"end":3804.99,"text":"想辦法去認定"},{"start":3804.99,"end":3806.99,"text":"把他抓在裡面嘛"},{"start":3810.88,"end":3812.88,"text":"不過這樣子好不好"},{"start":3812.88,"end":3814.88,"text":"我們在場委員先決定就是說"},{"start":3814.88,"end":3816.88,"text":"我們如果在第三條第19款"},{"start":3816.88,"end":3818.88,"text":"不加就是把他放到第60條"},{"start":3818.88,"end":3820.88,"text":"來處理"},{"start":3820.88,"end":3822.88,"text":"這樣在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3822.99,"end":3824.99,"text":"我就要問政天才委員"},{"start":3826.91,"end":3828.91,"text":"這樣好"},{"start":3831.8,"end":3833.8,"text":"我還是要跟部長"},{"start":3833.8,"end":3835.8,"text":"農業部這邊來做說明"},{"start":3837.29,"end":3839.29,"text":"因為"},{"start":3838.5,"end":3840.5,"text":"災害防救法"},{"start":3840.5,"end":3842.5,"text":"他是法律"},{"start":3841.59,"end":3843.59,"text":"他裡面定的災害"},{"start":3844.36,"end":3846.36,"text":"天然災害"},{"start":3846.36,"end":3848.36,"text":"就累積了"},{"start":3848.36,"end":3850.36,"text":"就沒有包含很多跟農業"},{"start":3850.36,"end":3852.36,"text":"有關的部分"},{"start":3851.58,"end":3853.58,"text":"就會怪異漏網"},{"start":3853.58,"end":3855.58,"text":"所以我們現在把他提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3855.58,"end":3857.58,"text":"那到底要放在第三條"},{"start":3859.28,"end":3861.28,"text":"還是放在第60條"},{"start":3861.28,"end":3863.28,"text":"大家可以討論"},{"start":3863.28,"end":3867.28,"text":"反正我認為都應該提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3867.28,"end":3869.28,"text":"但是這個條文字"},{"start":3869.28,"end":3871.28,"text":"文字還是要增加"},{"start":3871.28,"end":3873.28,"text":"所以農業部這邊也幫忙"},{"start":3873.28,"end":3875.28,"text":"這個"},{"start":3875.28,"end":3877.28,"text":"想一下這個文字"},{"start":3877.28,"end":3879.28,"text":"還是要把這個"},{"start":3879.28,"end":3881.28,"text":"因為我們怪異漏網"},{"start":3881.2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art":4095,"end":4097,"text":"物質它可能就不是農作物"},{"start":4098.65,"end":4100.65,"text":"這是很明顯的"},{"start":4100.65,"end":4102.65,"text":"因為我們在養殖地區"},{"start":4102.65,"end":4104.65,"text":"很多餘溫的養殖業者"},{"start":4104.65,"end":4106.65,"text":"他們在餘溫跟餘溫之間"},{"start":4106.65,"end":4108.65,"text":"他們需要人員搬運工具"},{"start":4108.65,"end":4110.65,"text":"出入的時候"},{"start":4110.65,"end":4112.65,"text":"他需要去填出一條走道"},{"start":4112.59,"end":4114.59,"text":"那這個走道它不可能用優質的"},{"start":4114.59,"end":4116.59,"text":"種植農作物的"},{"start":4116.59,"end":4118.59,"text":"物質嘛"},{"start":4118.59,"end":4120.59,"text":"那這種情況之下"},{"start":4120.59,"end":4122.59,"text":"它既然是農業用地"},{"start":4122.59,"end":4124.59,"text":"它也維持農業生產的功能"},{"start":4124.59,"end":4126.59,"text":"它做餘溫使用"},{"start":4126.59,"end":4128.59,"text":"但是你限制它餘溫的這些"},{"start":4128.59,"end":4130.59,"text":"必要的設施"},{"start":4130.59,"end":4132.59,"text":"限制要在不能夠用那些"},{"start":4132.59,"end":4134.59,"text":"不適合種植農作物的物質"},{"start":4134.59,"end":4136.59,"text":"那這恐怕就會造成"},{"start":4136.59,"end":4138.59,"text":"餘溫在經營上他們的困難"},{"start":4138.59,"end":4140.59,"text":"它不可能把隔壁聯務員的優質土壤"},{"start":4140.59,"end":4142.59,"text":"餘溫啊"},{"start":4142.59,"end":4144.59,"text":"所以我是覺得這個部分主席也在觀察"},{"start":4144.59,"end":4146.59,"text":"在看"},{"start":4147.53,"end":4149.53,"text":"條文的用意是很好"},{"start":4149.53,"end":4151.53,"text":"但是他在表達的時候呢"},{"start":4151.53,"end":4153.53,"text":"他們有涵蓋到所有的農業生產樣態"},{"start":4153.53,"end":4155.53,"text":"那恐怕當我們"},{"start":4155.53,"end":4157.53,"text":"心中想像的是農作物"},{"start":4157.53,"end":4159.53,"text":"種植的農業用途"},{"start":4159.53,"end":4161.53,"text":"的時候你的"},{"start":4161.53,"end":4163.53,"text":"定義所造成的限制"},{"start":4163.53,"end":4165.53,"text":"就會造成其他"},{"start":4165.53,"end":4167.53,"text":"非農作物種植的"},{"start":4167.53,"end":4169.53,"text":"其他農業設施它在使用的時候的困難"},{"start":4169.53,"end":4171.53,"text":"所以我是覺得這一點呢"},{"start":4171.53,"end":4173.53,"text":"是不是讓農業部去想一下"},{"start":4173.53,"end":4175.53,"text":"怎麼樣保留這個條文"},{"start":4175.53,"end":4177.53,"text":"我們的精神"},{"start":4177.53,"end":4179.53,"text":"就是我們要宣示不允許"},{"start":4179.53,"end":4181.53,"text":"廢土進入到農業用地"},{"start":4181.53,"end":4183.53,"text":"但是又不至於限制了"},{"start":4183.53,"end":4185.53,"text":"那些在不同形態的"},{"start":4185.53,"end":4187.53,"text":"農業生產的使用時"},{"start":4187.53,"end":4189.53,"text":"他必須要做一些地形地貌"},{"start":4189.53,"end":4191.53,"text":"他可能要去做一些"},{"start":4191.53,"end":4193.53,"text":"設施的鋪設的時候"},{"start":4193.53,"end":4195.53,"text":"他可能沒有辦法一律採用"},{"start":4195.53,"end":4197.53,"text":"通通是用來種植農作物的優質土壤"},{"start":4197.53,"end":4199.53,"text":"去回填"},{"start":4199.53,"end":4201.53,"text":"這個是有困難的"},{"start":4201.87,"end":4203.87,"text":"所以我才說後面有一些認定的話就是"},{"start":4206.11,"end":4208.11,"text":"有機關會箱啊"},{"start":4208.66,"end":4210.66,"text":"你把那個"},{"start":4210.66,"end":4212.66,"text":"貨旗它不適合種植農作物的堆置"},{"start":4212.66,"end":4214.66,"text":"放在母髮裡面"},{"start":4215.98,"end":4217.98,"text":"我漁溫又不是要種植農作物的"},{"start":4217.98,"end":4219.98,"text":"你叫我漁溫裡面要做的布道"},{"start":4219.98,"end":4221.98,"text":"必須要用適合種植農作物的"},{"start":4221.98,"end":4223.98,"text":"這個母髮這樣定"},{"start":4223.98,"end":4225.98,"text":"植髮再怎麼寫寫不出來啦"},{"start":4225.98,"end":4227.98,"text":"我簡單的意思說這個條文"},{"start":4227.98,"end":4229.98,"text":"沒有完整的把"},{"start":4229.98,"end":4231.98,"text":"所有的農業生產的樣態都想進去啦"},{"start":4231.98,"end":4233.98,"text":"在漁溫的這個"},{"start":4233.98,"end":4235.98,"text":"農業生產的樣態當中"},{"start":4235.98,"end":4237.98,"text":"他的土地的使用性質"},{"start":4237.98,"end":4239.98,"text":"會受到這個限制啦"},{"start":4239.98,"end":4241.98,"text":"這已經有農民在反應了啦"},{"start":4244.3,"end":4246.3,"text":"還沒有寫這條就有反應了"},{"start":4247.96,"end":4249.96,"text":"我們這都有公道的耶"},{"start":4250.67,"end":4252.67,"text":"不是啦"},{"start":4252.67,"end":4254.67,"text":"我是不是可以跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4257.96,"end":4259.96,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4259.96,"end":4261.96,"text":"來針對這一條民眾黨黨團的提案"},{"start":4261.96,"end":4263.96,"text":"把農業的用地上面"},{"start":4263.96,"end":4265.96,"text":"能夠覆蓋或不能覆蓋的土石"},{"start":4265.96,"end":4267.96,"text":"寫得這麼"},{"start":4268.46,"end":4270.46,"text":"啊"},{"start":4270.13,"end":4272.13,"text":"詳細或者是說這麼細索"},{"start":4272.13,"end":4274.13,"text":"我看到一個叫做"},{"start":4274.13,"end":4276.13,"text":"銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4276.13,"end":4278.13,"text":"這個我們有沒有內政部的同仁"},{"start":4281.72,"end":4283.72,"text":"簡潤工程師"},{"start":4283.72,"end":4285.72,"text":"來是不是我請教一下"},{"start":4286.7,"end":4288.7,"text":"如果就銀劍屬"},{"start":4288.7,"end":4290.7,"text":"AV"},{"start":4289.54,"end":4291.54,"text":"這個你們銀劍工程的規定"},{"start":4292.98,"end":4294.98,"text":"欸"},{"start":4297.98,"end":4299.98,"text":"上發煙台啊"},{"start":4302.03,"end":4304.03,"text":"你們的銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4304.03,"end":4306.03,"text":"應該是有分很多種類吧"},{"start":4306.03,"end":4308.03,"text":"比如說我現在一個新的基地開挖"},{"start":4308.03,"end":4310.03,"text":"新的基地開挖下去"},{"start":4310.03,"end":4312.03,"text":"挖起來的豪土"},{"start":4312.03,"end":4314.03,"text":"算不算銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4315.24,"end":4317.24,"text":"那這個豪土能不能去做"},{"start":4317.24,"end":4319.24,"text":"農地的土質改良"},{"start":4321.23,"end":4323.23,"text":"你們的銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4323.23,"end":4325.23,"text":"依照我的了解應該是有分很多的級別"},{"start":4325.23,"end":4327.23,"text":"很多的不同種類嘛"},{"start":4327.23,"end":4329.23,"text":"所以如果我們的文字直接這樣寫"},{"start":4329.23,"end":4331.23,"text":"好像你的這個所有銀劍的"},{"start":4331.23,"end":4333.23,"text":"挖起來的土石全部是爛的"},{"start":4333.23,"end":4335.23,"text":"全部是不好的土"},{"start":4335.23,"end":4337.23,"text":"那怎麼處理"},{"start":4338.39,"end":4340.39,"text":"這個部分回答委員"},{"start":4340.39,"end":4342.39,"text":"那的確我們銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4342.39,"end":4344.39,"text":"指的是是來源的部分"},{"start":4344.39,"end":4346.39,"text":"只要凡是是相關的"},{"start":4346.39,"end":4348.39,"text":"建築公共工程或是管線"},{"start":4348.39,"end":4350.39,"text":"工程所施工產生"},{"start":4350.39,"end":4352.39,"text":"挖出來的都叫做我們的銀劍"},{"start":4352.39,"end":4354.39,"text":"剩餘土石方那這個部分的確也"},{"start":4354.39,"end":4356.39,"text":"包括了非常多的種類我們有分"},{"start":4356.39,"end":4358.39,"text":"B1到B7"},{"start":4358.39,"end":4360.39,"text":"可能裡面就會有所謂的表土"},{"start":4360.39,"end":4362.39,"text":"黏土一般的土壤"},{"start":4362.39,"end":4364.39,"text":"沙子礫石岩塊"},{"start":4364.39,"end":4366.39,"text":"這些都是在我們的銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4366.39,"end":4368.39,"text":"的範疇裡面"},{"start":4368.39,"end":4370.39,"text":"所以目前如果照這個"},{"start":4370.39,"end":4372.39,"text":"修法文字所所寫的部分"},{"start":4372.39,"end":4374.39,"text":"銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4374.39,"end":4376.39,"text":"就會範疇這些所有挖出來的"},{"start":4376.39,"end":4378.39,"text":"這些相關的所有的土壤"},{"start":4378.39,"end":4380.39,"text":"都包含在裡面"},{"start":4380.39,"end":4382.39,"text":"所以範疇是比較大的以上說明"},{"start":4383.11,"end":4385.11,"text":"好,所以這個好土壞土"},{"start":4386.79,"end":4388.79,"text":"只要是銀劍剩餘土石方"},{"start":4388.79,"end":4390.79,"text":"通通都不能回填"},{"start":4390.6,"end":4392.6,"text":"不能回填農地,來,部長"},{"start":4392.64,"end":4394.64,"text":"好土能不能回填農地"},{"start":4395.83,"end":4397.83,"text":"一線量的辦法"},{"start":4397.83,"end":4399.83,"text":"就是農地如果需要改良的時候"},{"start":4399.83,"end":4401.83,"text":"它銀劍的這些廢土"},{"start":4401.83,"end":4403.83,"text":"它經過土資廠去"},{"start":4403.83,"end":4405.83,"text":"做分類了以後"},{"start":4405.83,"end":4407.83,"text":"適合農地的還是可以用"},{"start":4407.83,"end":4409.83,"text":"然後如果你再..."},{"start":4409.83,"end":4411.83,"text":"所以我才會說"},{"start":4411.83,"end":4413.83,"text":"有一些很細的東西"},{"start":4413.83,"end":4415.83,"text":"相關的在種類的部分"},{"start":4415.83,"end":4417.83,"text":"應該是在細則裡面去做"},{"start":4417.83,"end":4419.83,"text":"規範跟處理"},{"start":4419.83,"end":4421.83,"text":"但是你一旦拉到母法的時候"},{"start":4421.83,"end":4423.83,"text":"你寫死了就完全不能用了"},{"start":4423.83,"end":4425.83,"text":"那你要修的話要重新再修法"},{"start":4425.83,"end":4427.83,"text":"那個時間的反應就會比較慢"},{"start":4427.83,"end":4429.83,"text":"這個我..."},{"start":4429.83,"end":4431.83,"text":"我覺得講大白話"},{"start":4431.83,"end":4433.83,"text":"寫這一條就是你們當時在說"},{"start":4433.83,"end":4435.83,"text":"這個所謂的美農大峽谷"},{"start":4435.83,"end":4437.83,"text":"被挖了"},{"start":4437.83,"end":4439.83,"text":"所以大家現在就是說農地"},{"start":4439.83,"end":4441.83,"text":"要有很多的限制"},{"start":4441.83,"end":4443.83,"text":"這個我也同意"},{"start":4443.83,"end":4445.83,"text":"不適合回填到農地的土質"},{"start":4445.83,"end":4447.83,"text":"當然不能回填到農地"},{"start":4447.83,"end":4449.83,"text":"我們還是要回復農地可以種植使用"},{"start":4449.83,"end":4451.83,"text":"但是如果能夠對於農地進行土質改良"},{"start":4451.83,"end":4453.83,"text":"又或者你所有的土方"},{"start":4453.83,"end":4455.83,"text":"比如說你有的土"},{"start":4457.14,"end":4459.14,"text":"有的農地他的種子是需要砂的"},{"start":4459.14,"end":4461.14,"text":"然後你現在寫砂也不行填農地"},{"start":4462.49,"end":4464.49,"text":"那請問需要砂質土的"},{"start":4464.49,"end":4466.49,"text":"這個農地要怎麼做"},{"start":4466.49,"end":4468.49,"text":"那你的銀建剩餘土石方"},{"start":4468.49,"end":4470.49,"text":"按照你們講的國土屬的講法"},{"start":4470.49,"end":4472.49,"text":"銀建剩餘土石方就有分七種"},{"start":4473.41,"end":4475.41,"text":"從B1到B7啊"},{"start":4475.41,"end":4477.41,"text":"那你只有短短幾個字"},{"start":4477.41,"end":4479.41,"text":"七個字就把七種全部打掉了"},{"start":4480.48,"end":4482.48,"text":"我覺得這個也不盡合理吧"},{"start":4482.48,"end":4484.48,"text":"我們這修法不能因業廢食啊"},{"start":4484.48,"end":4486.48,"text":"我總是要留一個彈性"},{"start":4486.48,"end":4488.48,"text":"讓你們在執法裡頭去明定"},{"start":4488.48,"end":4490.48,"text":"那你們執法在明定的時候"},{"start":4490.48,"end":4492.48,"text":"哪一些是可以哪一些是不可以"},{"start":4492.48,"end":4494.48,"text":"你們一定是要跟"},{"start":4494.55,"end":4496.55,"text":"這個"},{"start":4495.7,"end":4497.7,"text":"內政部相關的單位"},{"start":4497.7,"end":4499.7,"text":"跨部會的單位一起去做"},{"start":4499.87,"end":4501.87,"text":"一起去做討論嘛"},{"start":4501.87,"end":4503.87,"text":"所以我不是很贊同在這裡"},{"start":4503.87,"end":4505.87,"text":"直接把這個法就把它寫死啊"},{"start":4506.55,"end":4508.55,"text":"我這邊稍微回應一下"},{"start":4508.55,"end":4510.55,"text":"就是我們現在也正在積極的處理"},{"start":4510.55,"end":4512.55,"text":"原來放在史詩戲者的"},{"start":4512.55,"end":4514.55,"text":"第十條"},{"start":4514.55,"end":4516.55,"text":"那個戲者裡面"},{"start":4516.55,"end":4518.55,"text":"的一些內容"},{"start":4518.55,"end":4520.55,"text":"內容裡面有一些當初在寫的時候"},{"start":4520.55,"end":4522.55,"text":"也太過於籠統"},{"start":4522.55,"end":4524.55,"text":"那太過於籠統的時候"},{"start":4524.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:5009.58,"text":"那如果農路是跟農業生產有關"},{"start":5009.58,"end":5011.58,"text":"一個農田如果沒有農路要怎麼耕作"},{"start":5012.34,"end":5014.34,"text":"那你這個農路也是農業用地"},{"start":5014.34,"end":5017.34,"text":"請問這個農業用地按照你二條之一"},{"start":5017.34,"end":5018.34,"text":"那是要什麼"},{"start":5018.34,"end":5019.34,"text":"要用"},{"start":5019.63,"end":5021.63,"text":"適合農業生產的"},{"start":5021.79,"end":5023.79,"text":"優質土壤區"},{"start":5023.77,"end":5025.77,"text":"你這是整死農民的農民在農地上"},{"start":5025.77,"end":5027.77,"text":"一整塊農地"},{"start":5027.77,"end":5028.77,"text":"他什麼時候他會去"},{"start":5028.77,"end":5030.77,"text":"一整地的時候他去撿嘛"},{"start":5030.77,"end":5031.77,"text":"就算種西瓜"},{"start":5031.77,"end":5033.77,"text":"裡面西瓜削不掉也有九頭嘛"},{"start":5034.87,"end":5036.87,"text":"他會把九頭撿來做"},{"start":5036.87,"end":5039.87,"text":"他出的農村要出的農路嘛"},{"start":5039.87,"end":5040.87,"text":"所以他一定會怎麼樣"},{"start":5040.87,"end":5042.87,"text":"他一定會有的地方好"},{"start":5042.87,"end":5043.87,"text":"有的地方吞"},{"start":5043.87,"end":5046.87,"text":"然後把那種沒有設計的九頭"},{"start":5046.87,"end":5048.87,"text":"他就撿做農路"},{"start":5048.87,"end":5050.87,"text":"我說教練現在不要說現在就罰了"},{"start":5051.71,"end":5053.71,"text":"原來的你們的施行細則"},{"start":5053.71,"end":5055.71,"text":"就有可能讓農民因為出版了二條之一"},{"start":5056.84,"end":5058.84,"text":"被你們根據農法條例去處罰"},{"start":5058.84,"end":5061.84,"text":"所以問題不是出在現在委員的版本"},{"start":5061.84,"end":5063.84,"text":"出在我們農法條例當初二條之一"},{"start":5063.84,"end":5066.84,"text":"忽略了剛剛我們說的這些情況"},{"start":5066.84,"end":5068.84,"text":"他說前一條農業用地"},{"start":5068.84,"end":5070.84,"text":"這裡面包括農路喔"},{"start":5070.84,"end":5071.84,"text":"從事農業使用"},{"start":5071.84,"end":5073.84,"text":"農路也是從事農業使用喔"},{"start":5073.84,"end":5074.84,"text":"而有田土需要者"},{"start":5074.84,"end":5076.84,"text":"農路要不要田"},{"start":5076.84,"end":5077.84,"text":"要田啊"},{"start":5077.84,"end":5081.84,"text":"你田土的土質應該適合農業種植農作物之土壤"},{"start":5083,"end":5083.5,"text":"對啊"},{"start":5084,"end":5085,"text":"我事過於行"},{"start":5085,"end":5086,"text":"事過於行內"},{"start":5086,"end":5089,"text":"我要出農村才要出農路"},{"start":5089,"end":5091,"text":"我已經是用九頭去吞了"},{"start":5091.78,"end":5092.28,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5092.28,"end":5094.78,"text":"這你還規定要用什麼優質土壤"},{"start":5094.78,"end":5096.78,"text":"所以顯然的問題不是出在什麼"},{"start":5096.78,"end":5097.78,"text":"不是出在母法"},{"start":5097.78,"end":5099.78,"text":"是出在施行細則當中"},{"start":5099.78,"end":5100.78,"text":"二條之一"},{"start":5100.78,"end":5102.78,"text":"的確有在施行上有一些"},{"start":5102.78,"end":5103.78,"text":"致害難行之處"},{"start":5103.78,"end":5106.78,"text":"所以或許我們應該要求農業部"},{"start":5106.78,"end":5107.78,"text":"把二條之一的施行細則"},{"start":5107.78,"end":5108.78,"text":"好好的檢視一下"},{"start":5108.78,"end":5110.78,"text":"不然你二條之一講的農業用地"},{"start":5111.76,"end":5112.76,"text":"水利用地算不算"},{"start":5112.76,"end":5113.76,"text":"是啊"},{"start":5114.22,"end":5114.72,"text":"啊"},{"start":5115.28,"end":5117.28,"text":"農業用地什麼算"},{"start":5117.97,"end":5119.97,"text":"啊農路是做農業使用的"},{"start":5119.97,"end":5120.47,"text":"是啊"},{"start":5120.47,"end":5121.97,"text":"啊做農業使用的農路"},{"start":5121.97,"end":5122.97,"text":"不能用石頭去填"},{"start":5122.97,"end":5123.97,"text":"你告訴我用什麼填"},{"start":5125.29,"end":5127.29,"text":"不過這個在他們農法條例的"},{"start":5127.29,"end":5129.29,"text":"八字一條第三項"},{"start":5129.29,"end":5131.29,"text":"大概就有授權訂定了"},{"start":5131.72,"end":5134.72,"text":"因為你們在申請農業用地農業設施"},{"start":5134.72,"end":5136.72,"text":"容許使用審查辦法"},{"start":5136.72,"end":5138.72,"text":"還有對這些農路什麼這些的"},{"start":5138.72,"end":5140.72,"text":"有去做設施的審查規定"},{"start":5140.72,"end":5141.72,"text":"有啦"},{"start":5141.72,"end":5142.72,"text":"所以說"},{"start":5142.72,"end":5144.72,"text":"他在八字一條第三項這邊"},{"start":5145.37,"end":5146.37,"text":"就是因為有困擾"},{"start":5146.37,"end":5148.37,"text":"我們才會過來關心這個題目"},{"start":5148.37,"end":5149.37,"text":"我想謝謝委員"},{"start":5149.37,"end":5151.37,"text":"我想我們的目標都是一次的"},{"start":5151.37,"end":5152.37,"text":"包括剛才委員講的"},{"start":5152.37,"end":5156.37,"text":"我從來沒有為反對而反對的部分"},{"start":5156.37,"end":5157.37,"text":"那我這邊考慮"},{"start":5157.37,"end":5160.37,"text":"我剛才一開始也特別提到就是說"},{"start":5160.37,"end":5162.37,"text":"因為填土的時候"},{"start":5162.37,"end":5164.37,"text":"會有各種不同的樣態"},{"start":5164.37,"end":5166.37,"text":"那如果在摸法寫的時候"},{"start":5166.37,"end":5167.37,"text":"就會很容易"},{"start":5168.39,"end":5170.39,"text":"就是把他鎖住了"},{"start":5170.39,"end":5172.39,"text":"包括營建土石方"},{"start":5172.39,"end":5174.39,"text":"那營建土石方經過土資廠"},{"start":5174.39,"end":5177.39,"text":"去萃出來的適合農地的土壤"},{"start":5177.39,"end":5178.39,"text":"他還是可以用"},{"start":5178.39,"end":5180.39,"text":"但是我也說過"},{"start":5180.39,"end":5183.39,"text":"我們現在的實施細則二字一條"},{"start":5183.39,"end":5185.39,"text":"也應該要檢討"},{"start":5185.39,"end":5187.39,"text":"而這個檢討是應該放在"},{"start":5187.39,"end":5189.39,"text":"實施細則裡面去做一個"},{"start":5189.39,"end":5191.39,"text":"更詳細的解釋跟分類"},{"start":5191.39,"end":5194.39,"text":"而不是說放在摸法裡面"},{"start":5194.39,"end":5196.39,"text":"我這邊只是建議說不要放在摸法"},{"start":5196.39,"end":5197.39,"text":"放在實施細則"},{"start":5197.39,"end":5199.39,"text":"實施細則我們可以非常認真"},{"start":5199.39,"end":5201.39,"text":"再跟大家來討論"},{"start":5202.53,"end":5204.53,"text":"好 今天長官委員"},{"start":5207.94,"end":5208.94,"text":"這個"},{"start":5210.76,"end":5211.76,"text":"因為你現在的"},{"start":5212.45,"end":5214.45,"text":"施行細則農業發展條例"},{"start":5214.45,"end":5217.45,"text":"施行細則第二條之一"},{"start":5218.37,"end":5219.37,"text":"最後一項"},{"start":5220.3,"end":5222.3,"text":"違反前項規定者"},{"start":5222.3,"end":5226.3,"text":"就是前面的土石 砂石什麼那些"},{"start":5226.86,"end":5228.86,"text":"違反前項規定者"},{"start":5228.86,"end":5230.86,"text":"因依本條例第69條"},{"start":5230.86,"end":5232.86,"text":"規定處理"},{"start":5233.2,"end":5235.2,"text":"那69條是什麼呢"},{"start":5235.45,"end":5236.45,"text":"這是9條是說"},{"start":5236.45,"end":5239.45,"text":"你要用地違反7計劃法"},{"start":5239.45,"end":5241.45,"text":"都市計劃法"},{"start":5242.4,"end":5245.4,"text":"那它是不是所有你列舉的這些"},{"start":5246.1,"end":5249.1,"text":"所寫的這些難道都是違反"},{"start":5250.16,"end":5252.16,"text":"7計劃法都是計劃法"},{"start":5252.85,"end":5254.85,"text":"你要使用"},{"start":5255.29,"end":5256.29,"text":"你要列舉"},{"start":5257.4,"end":5261.4,"text":"所以就必須要涉及到要處罰各方面"},{"start":5261.4,"end":5263.4,"text":"那就要提升為法律的慰藉"},{"start":5263.4,"end":5266.4,"text":"的必要性就會產生"},{"start":5266.4,"end":5268.4,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":5270.95,"end":5274.95,"text":"剛剛您提到69條的那個違反使用的規定"},{"start":5274.95,"end":5276.95,"text":"違反土地使用的規定"},{"start":5276.95,"end":5278.95,"text":"那違反土地使用規定還有非常"},{"start":5278.95,"end":5281.95,"text":"因為土地使用規定還有相關的法"},{"start":5281.95,"end":5282.95,"text":"那它會共同去處理"},{"start":5282.95,"end":5285.95,"text":"像包括廢青法現在又加重了嘛"},{"start":5285.95,"end":5289.95,"text":"那它填的東西如果是屬於廢青法管轄的部分的話"},{"start":5289.95,"end":5292.95,"text":"那就又違反了相關的相關的這個"},{"start":5293.67,"end":5295.67,"text":"廢青法的一些條文裡面"},{"start":5295.67,"end":5300.67,"text":"所以我們還會說一個土地被爛到了東西的時候"},{"start":5300.67,"end":5304.67,"text":"它有非常多的墓地事業的法在去會罰它"},{"start":5304.67,"end":5307.67,"text":"而不是在農法條例這邊去處理"},{"start":5308.47,"end":5310.47,"text":"就是因為這樣所以"},{"start":5310.83,"end":5312.83,"text":"民眾黨團的提案"},{"start":5312.83,"end":5316.83,"text":"除了在第十條之一增加這一條之外"},{"start":5317.98,"end":5322.98,"text":"它連帶的在第69條也特別去明定"},{"start":5323.87,"end":5325.87,"text":"這是一個連帶的"},{"start":5326.46,"end":5331.46,"text":"就是怎麼樣一定是一定是因為執行這麼多年"},{"start":5331.46,"end":5336.46,"text":"尤其是這幾年發現了這樣的一個實際的案例"},{"start":5336.46,"end":5338.46,"text":"實際的情況"},{"start":5338.45,"end":5340.45,"text":"然後法有不周圓"},{"start":5340.45,"end":5342.45,"text":"電在市場細則也不周圓"},{"start":5343.75,"end":5345.75,"text":"的情況之下"},{"start":5345.22,"end":5347.22,"text":"提升為法律的位階"},{"start":5347.63,"end":5349.63,"text":"希望大家能夠支持"},{"start":5355.77,"end":5357.77,"text":"主席我想這樣"},{"start":5357.77,"end":5359.77,"text":"這一條其實我們都認為在母法"},{"start":5359.77,"end":5361.77,"text":"或者是在你們施行細則裡頭"},{"start":5361.77,"end":5363.77,"text":"其實就已經產生很大的落差"},{"start":5363.77,"end":5366.77,"text":"我是不是具體建議這一條我們就先保留"},{"start":5366.77,"end":5369.77,"text":"要不要把它放在母法或者是你的執法"},{"start":5369.77,"end":5371.77,"text":"其實要同併修"},{"start":5371.77,"end":5373.77,"text":"這個我們會來支持好不好"},{"start":5373.77,"end":5375.77,"text":"那我建議是不是這一條我們就先保留"},{"start":5376.51,"end":5378.51,"text":"我負荷"},{"start":5386.36,"end":5388.36,"text":"已經是"},{"start":5387.83,"end":5389.83,"text":"會有知愛難行的地方"},{"start":5389.91,"end":5392.91,"text":"這個當然是抄你們的施行細則來的"},{"start":5392.91,"end":5396.91,"text":"很顯然你們施行細則其實也是有大幅更動的"},{"start":5397.67,"end":5400.67,"text":"空間喔所以我的建議是不是我們就先保留"},{"start":5401.36,"end":5403.36,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":5403.36,"end":5405.36,"text":"我是負荷我們邱委員的"},{"start":5405.36,"end":5407.36,"text":"其實問題不是出在母法啦"},{"start":5407.36,"end":5409.36,"text":"是出在執法啦"},{"start":5409.36,"end":5411.36,"text":"我把母法唸一遍因為剛剛我們講的那件事情"},{"start":5412.52,"end":5414.52,"text":"我們的署長我們的部長"},{"start":5414.52,"end":5416.52,"text":"當時審計部的時候"},{"start":5416.52,"end":5418.52,"text":"監察院來就證的時候我們都一起開協調會"},{"start":5418.52,"end":5420.52,"text":"我那時候還請審計部來"},{"start":5420.52,"end":5422.52,"text":"後來我們農法條例修改了哪裡"},{"start":5422.52,"end":5424.52,"text":"我們農法條例修改了第三條"},{"start":5424.52,"end":5426.52,"text":"第十款"},{"start":5427.6,"end":5429.6,"text":"它裡面有三目"},{"start":5429.6,"end":5431.6,"text":"你把農法條例"},{"start":5431,"end":5433,"text":"第三條第十款"},{"start":5433,"end":5435,"text":"它寫農業用地包含了什麼"},{"start":5435.7,"end":5437.7,"text":"包含了非都跟都市的農業區保護區"},{"start":5437.7,"end":5439.7,"text":"一發使用"},{"start":5439.7,"end":5441.7,"text":"做什麼使用做三個目的使用"},{"start":5441.7,"end":5443.7,"text":"有做農作的"},{"start":5443.7,"end":5445.7,"text":"有做森林的"},{"start":5445.7,"end":5447.7,"text":"有做養殖的"},{"start":5447.7,"end":5449.7,"text":"有做畜牧的有做保育的"},{"start":5448.97,"end":5450.97,"text":"然後最關鍵的是第二目"},{"start":5450.97,"end":5452.97,"text":"他說工農業經營不可分離之農舍"},{"start":5454.91,"end":5456.91,"text":"敘情色"},{"start":5456.34,"end":5458.34,"text":"倉儲設施"},{"start":5458.34,"end":5464.34,"text":"賽場集貨場農路灌溉排水及其他農用之土地"},{"start":5464.34,"end":5466.34,"text":"我們很清楚農業有包括什麼"},{"start":5466.34,"end":5468.34,"text":"有包括敘情色"},{"start":5467.78,"end":5469.78,"text":"有包括養殖"},{"start":5469.78,"end":5471.78,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5471.78,"end":5473.78,"text":"然後農作物要有灌溉跟排水"},{"start":5473.78,"end":5475.78,"text":"還有農路"},{"start":5475.78,"end":5477.78,"text":"這些都涵蓋在農業用地的範圍"},{"start":5477.78,"end":5479.78,"text":"結果你們的母馬農法條例"},{"start":5479.78,"end":5481.78,"text":"第三條第一項第十"},{"start":5481.78,"end":5483.78,"text":"第十款第一第二目"},{"start":5483.78,"end":5485.78,"text":"這些都是"},{"start":5485.78,"end":5487.78,"text":"都是農業用地"},{"start":5487.78,"end":5489.78,"text":"結果你們在第二條之一"},{"start":5490.33,"end":5492.33,"text":"你們在施行細則第二條之一寫了什麼"},{"start":5493.4,"end":5495.4,"text":"就寫說錢向農業用地"},{"start":5497.01,"end":5499.01,"text":"錢向農業用地就只能講東西含不嚷嚷的"},{"start":5499.01,"end":5501.01,"text":"在母馬裡面規定的"},{"start":5501.01,"end":5503.01,"text":"都必須要填土需要時"},{"start":5503.01,"end":5505.01,"text":"他填的土壤因為適合種植的農作物"},{"start":5505.58,"end":5507.58,"text":"請問一下如果我的農業用地我是做敘情色"},{"start":5508.87,"end":5510.87,"text":"我那裡比較低我怕淹水"},{"start":5510.9,"end":5512.9,"text":"我要填敘情色來蓋敘情色的土壤"},{"start":5512.9,"end":5514.9,"text":"需要是要適合種植的嗎"},{"start":5514.9,"end":5516.9,"text":"所以問題不是出在農法條例"},{"start":5516.9,"end":5518.9,"text":"農法條例後來的修正"},{"start":5518.9,"end":5520.9,"text":"已經符合貼近了我們農業生產現場的需求"},{"start":5520.9,"end":5522.9,"text":"但是你們原來施行細則的二之一"},{"start":5522.9,"end":5524.9,"text":"沒有跟得動"},{"start":5524.9,"end":5526.9,"text":"以至於他的含色範圍"},{"start":5526.9,"end":5528.9,"text":"把我剛剛所說的"},{"start":5528.9,"end":5530.9,"text":"那些農業用地"},{"start":5530.9,"end":5532.9,"text":"通通狹隘著局限在農業種植的思考當中"},{"start":5532.9,"end":5534.9,"text":"通通狹隘著局限在農業種植的思考當中"},{"start":5534.9,"end":5536.9,"text":"通通狹隘著局限在農業種植的思考當中"},{"start":5536.9,"end":5538.9,"text":"所以我是建議符合我們邱委員的"},{"start":5538.9,"end":5540.9,"text":"是不是請農業部"},{"start":5540.9,"end":5542.9,"text":"去想一下你的施行細則"},{"start":5542.9,"end":5544.9,"text":"二之一條要怎麼幹"},{"start":5544.63,"end":5546.63,"text":"不是我們把一個不符合農法條例"},{"start":5546.63,"end":5548.63,"text":"第三條的"},{"start":5548.63,"end":5550.63,"text":"施行細則二之一條"},{"start":5550.63,"end":5552.63,"text":"拿回來裝在我們的地"},{"start":5552.65,"end":5554.65,"text":"六十條"},{"start":5554.49,"end":5556.49,"text":"我是具體這樣建議去調整"},{"start":5557.34,"end":5559.34,"text":"來 楊瓊宇委員"},{"start":5560.16,"end":5562.16,"text":"部長 我們有時候思考議題"},{"start":5562.16,"end":5564.16,"text":"針對第十條之一的爭議有兩個"},{"start":5564.16,"end":5566.16,"text":"針對第十條之一的爭議有兩個"},{"start":5567.38,"end":5569.38,"text":"第一個 內容對執行"},{"start":5570.08,"end":5572.08,"text":"執行的成效會如何"},{"start":5572.08,"end":5574.08,"text":"有沒有什麼可通"},{"start":5574.08,"end":5576.08,"text":"或者是摯愛難行的部分"},{"start":5576.08,"end":5578.08,"text":"明瞭說明的是這個"},{"start":5578.08,"end":5580.08,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":5579.5,"end":5581.5,"text":"第一個 我也覺得說"},{"start":5581.56,"end":5583.56,"text":"將它列入某法"},{"start":5583.8,"end":5585.8,"text":"跟你長期都在施行細則"},{"start":5588.83,"end":5590.83,"text":"你們的成效又是如何"},{"start":5590.83,"end":5592.83,"text":"因為到目前為止"},{"start":5592.83,"end":5594.83,"text":"衍生了這麼多的社會議題"},{"start":5595.66,"end":5597.66,"text":"也因為技術"},{"start":5597.97,"end":5599.97,"text":"氣候等等"},{"start":5599.97,"end":5601.97,"text":"情境條件的一個改變"},{"start":5601.97,"end":5603.97,"text":"如果只依照"},{"start":5603.97,"end":5605.97,"text":"目前你們的執行"},{"start":5605.97,"end":5607.97,"text":"施行細則來執行之"},{"start":5607.97,"end":5609.97,"text":"難怪會出這樣的"},{"start":5609.97,"end":5611.97,"text":"一個社會現象"},{"start":5611.97,"end":5613.97,"text":"那麼討論到現在"},{"start":5614.01,"end":5616.01,"text":"我個人也非常認為就是說"},{"start":5616.01,"end":5618.01,"text":"我們定法目的"},{"start":5618.01,"end":5620.01,"text":"就是要讓執行者"},{"start":5620.01,"end":5622.01,"text":"能夠執行"},{"start":5621.97,"end":5623.97,"text":"讓遵循者能夠"},{"start":5623.97,"end":5625.97,"text":"有法規可遵循"},{"start":5625.97,"end":5627.97,"text":"這非常重要"},{"start":5627.97,"end":5629.97,"text":"所以我要請教一個議題"},{"start":5630.48,"end":5632.48,"text":"你也意識到在你的施行細則裡頭"},{"start":5632.48,"end":5634.48,"text":"你是沒有辦法"},{"start":5634.48,"end":5636.48,"text":"去應對目前的樣態"},{"start":5636.48,"end":5638.48,"text":"那請問已經這麼久了"},{"start":5638.48,"end":5640.48,"text":"你什麼時候可以把你的"},{"start":5640.48,"end":5642.48,"text":"施行細則你所具具要調整的"},{"start":5642.48,"end":5644.48,"text":"你提出來 請問"},{"start":5644.62,"end":5646.62,"text":"你應該要給一個時間"},{"start":5646.62,"end":5648.62,"text":"要不然我們一直卡在這裡"},{"start":5648.62,"end":5650.62,"text":"我們看到社會問題一直呈現"},{"start":5650.62,"end":5652.62,"text":"這不行的"},{"start":5651.69,"end":5653.69,"text":"來 我教你"},{"start":5653.81,"end":5655.81,"text":"好 第一個部分我想"},{"start":5655.81,"end":5657.81,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒"},{"start":5657.81,"end":5659.81,"text":"我剛才強調就是說"},{"start":5659.81,"end":5661.81,"text":"我們要改"},{"start":5661.81,"end":5663.81,"text":"是實施細則裡面有非常多的"},{"start":5663.81,"end":5665.81,"text":"細目必須要去調整才能夠符合"},{"start":5665.81,"end":5667.81,"text":"現代的一個規範"},{"start":5667.81,"end":5669.81,"text":"那實施細則"},{"start":5669.81,"end":5671.81,"text":"你就是因為你施行細則不行"},{"start":5671.81,"end":5673.81,"text":"所以人家都已經要提出母法"},{"start":5673.46,"end":5675.46,"text":"對不對 所以你要告訴我們"},{"start":5675.46,"end":5677.46,"text":"你認為不行的"},{"start":5677.46,"end":5679.46,"text":"我們一個月到兩個月就可以把它完成"},{"start":5679.46,"end":5681.46,"text":"一個月到兩個月"},{"start":5681.46,"end":5683.46,"text":"一個月到兩個月之間就可以把它提出來"},{"start":5683.46,"end":5685.46,"text":"那你一個月提出來嘛"},{"start":5685.46,"end":5687.46,"text":"我們一個月把它提出來"},{"start":5687.46,"end":5689.46,"text":"那我是不是充分建議"},{"start":5689.46,"end":5691.46,"text":"我覺得也不能停滯在這裡"},{"start":5691.46,"end":5693.46,"text":"因為這個問題不解決不行的"},{"start":5693.46,"end":5695.46,"text":"所以我認為因為包刮帶"},{"start":5695.46,"end":5697.46,"text":"69條"},{"start":5697.46,"end":5699.46,"text":"後面的69條是依照"},{"start":5699.46,"end":5701.46,"text":"違反第10條之一的"},{"start":5701.46,"end":5703.46,"text":"情況 所以這兩條"},{"start":5703.46,"end":5705.46,"text":"是不是你們就承諾喔"},{"start":5705.46,"end":5707.46,"text":"在一個月內要提出"},{"start":5707.46,"end":5709.46,"text":"你們的方案"},{"start":5709.46,"end":5711.46,"text":"我個人認為這個是可以保留"},{"start":5711.46,"end":5713.46,"text":"送協商 就運用在這一個"},{"start":5713.46,"end":5715.46,"text":"月內 我們去討論"},{"start":5715.46,"end":5717.46,"text":"去調整 這樣好嗎"},{"start":5721.4,"end":5723.4,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5723.49,"end":5725.49,"text":"我告訴你實在"},{"start":5725.49,"end":5727.49,"text":"你的母法裡面把這個設死掉了"},{"start":5727.49,"end":5729.49,"text":"你施行細則的話"},{"start":5729.49,"end":5731.49,"text":"你做出來不完整"},{"start":5732.08,"end":5734.08,"text":"因為你們做這樣的做法"},{"start":5734.08,"end":5736.08,"text":"是在保護你自己 怕被人家攻擊"},{"start":5736.08,"end":5738.08,"text":"那我現在跟你講幾個重點"},{"start":5738.08,"end":5740.08,"text":"你什麼叫做天然黏土"},{"start":5741.82,"end":5743.82,"text":"什麼叫做四合龍"},{"start":5744.87,"end":5748.87,"text":"四合龍就只有機制改良圖外"},{"start":5748.87,"end":5750.87,"text":"沒有確切的標準"},{"start":5750.87,"end":5752.87,"text":"我也跟你講實際地方的情形"},{"start":5753.71,"end":5757.71,"text":"在台中以北如果挖地下室的那個土壤"},{"start":5758.42,"end":5760.42,"text":"在北部"},{"start":5759.82,"end":5761.82,"text":"叫做四葉廢墟"},{"start":5761.82,"end":5763.82,"text":"被抓到罰了很慘"},{"start":5763.82,"end":5765.82,"text":"所以這些台北的"},{"start":5765.82,"end":5767.82,"text":"地下室挖的那個"},{"start":5767.82,"end":5769.82,"text":"土方"},{"start":5769.82,"end":5771.82,"text":"都送到南部去"},{"start":5771.82,"end":5773.82,"text":"南部縣政府認可"},{"start":5773.82,"end":5775.82,"text":"沒有事 一口兩字"},{"start":5775.82,"end":5777.82,"text":"你可能不知道這個情形"},{"start":5778.33,"end":5780.33,"text":"地下室"},{"start":5779.4,"end":5781.4,"text":"我跟你們講"},{"start":5781.4,"end":5783.4,"text":"你現在這種土方的來源"},{"start":5783.4,"end":5785.4,"text":"天然的沿土外"},{"start":5785.4,"end":5787.4,"text":"還在北那裡"},{"start":5787.53,"end":5789.53,"text":"水土保存法去挖了一塊"},{"start":5789.53,"end":5791.53,"text":"你們就花錢了"},{"start":5791.53,"end":5793.53,"text":"百姓不管挖"},{"start":5793.53,"end":5795.53,"text":"現在土方要添土的主要來源"},{"start":5795.53,"end":5797.53,"text":"是什麼"},{"start":5797.53,"end":5799.53,"text":"就是地下室的土方"},{"start":5799.53,"end":5801.53,"text":"還有一個營建"},{"start":5801.53,"end":5803.53,"text":"廢棄物的一個"},{"start":5803.53,"end":5805.53,"text":"資源在分類的時候"},{"start":5805.53,"end":5807.53,"text":"打脆了再分類"},{"start":5807.53,"end":5809.53,"text":"那個是可以用的"},{"start":5809.59,"end":5811.59,"text":"但是你們就叫它巴西地"},{"start":5812.05,"end":5814.05,"text":"我是跟你講地方時期的情形"},{"start":5814.84,"end":5816.84,"text":"阿今次去跟你聊"},{"start":5816.84,"end":5818.84,"text":"無法在你實行信水都沒有改"},{"start":5820.02,"end":5822.02,"text":"我確實發現一個很嚴重"},{"start":5822.02,"end":5824.02,"text":"台中以北都當作"},{"start":5824.02,"end":5826.02,"text":"事業會居住"},{"start":5825.52,"end":5827.52,"text":"台中以南都當作一般土方"},{"start":5827.52,"end":5829.52,"text":"兩種標準"},{"start":5831.44,"end":5833.44,"text":"讓大家無所遵循"},{"start":5833.44,"end":5835.44,"text":"很多人說南部怎麼會有北部的"},{"start":5835.44,"end":5837.44,"text":"我也覺得莫名其妙"},{"start":5837.44,"end":5839.44,"text":"原來問題在這個地方"},{"start":5840.37,"end":5842.37,"text":"他們當初講的不清楚"},{"start":5843.08,"end":5845.08,"text":"因為挖地下室的土方"},{"start":5845.08,"end":5847.08,"text":"有很多是乾淨的"},{"start":5847.08,"end":5849.08,"text":"但是南美有一兩塊磚塊"},{"start":5849.08,"end":5851.08,"text":"你曉得警方會壓不住的嗎"},{"start":5851.08,"end":5853.08,"text":"只要一大片旅居裡面"},{"start":5853.08,"end":5855.08,"text":"找出三四個磚塊"},{"start":5855.08,"end":5857.08,"text":"就說這個是廢棄物處理"},{"start":5857.08,"end":5859.08,"text":"就用廢棄物的方法來處罰百姓"},{"start":5861.55,"end":5863.55,"text":"哪裡有照顧老民"},{"start":5863.5,"end":5865.5,"text":"黑市教育不敢當場"},{"start":5865.95,"end":5867.95,"text":"不敢當場"},{"start":5867.95,"end":5869.95,"text":"你們要做這樣的事情"},{"start":5869.95,"end":5871.95,"text":"把它分裂得很清楚"},{"start":5871.95,"end":5873.95,"text":"一有事的話你們就講"},{"start":5873.95,"end":5875.95,"text":"我還不可以啊你怎麼可以這麼做"},{"start":5876.41,"end":5878.41,"text":"這個問題確實很嚴重"},{"start":5878.41,"end":5880.41,"text":"不是要跟你爹辯論這裡有沒有"},{"start":5881.63,"end":5883.63,"text":"教官 略殘啊"},{"start":5884.51,"end":5886.51,"text":"你說去那邊 給我去那邊"},{"start":5888.02,"end":5890.02,"text":"那個沿途來"},{"start":5890.02,"end":5892.02,"text":"要帶他去你告訴我 拴你的沿途"},{"start":5892.02,"end":5894.02,"text":"我跟威翔報告天然沿途不是我寫的"},{"start":5894.02,"end":5896.02,"text":"不是你寫的 以前的人教的"},{"start":5896.02,"end":5898.02,"text":"你寫的"},{"start":5898.02,"end":5900.02,"text":"這些委員的提議"},{"start":5900.02,"end":5902.02,"text":"我就是沒什麼叫做天然"},{"start":5902.69,"end":5904.69,"text":"立法院地下室的土是不是天然領土"},{"start":5906.72,"end":5908.72,"text":"經濟的裁定"},{"start":5908.72,"end":5910.72,"text":"隨便你們講隨便你們寫"},{"start":5910.72,"end":5912.72,"text":"真的要撤離改革的時候"},{"start":5912.72,"end":5914.72,"text":"拜託一下"},{"start":5936.66,"end":5938.66,"text":"好第十條之一的話"},{"start":5938.66,"end":5940.66,"text":"我們主席保留宋協商"},{"start":5944.89,"end":5946.89,"text":"現在一起唸吧 跟第69條"},{"start":5946.89,"end":5948.89,"text":"一起保留宋協商"},{"start":5948.89,"end":5950.89,"text":"還有69條修正動議"},{"start":5953.09,"end":5955.09,"text":"修正動議是對取罰則而已"},{"start":5955.09,"end":5957.09,"text":"對準屠宰法的罰則"},{"start":5957.09,"end":5959.09,"text":"那個部長"},{"start":5959.09,"end":5961.09,"text":"那你一個月內一定要提出喔"},{"start":5961.36,"end":5963.36,"text":"因為他跨了三個部門"},{"start":5963.36,"end":5967.36,"text":"一定要整體去做對照"},{"start":5967.36,"end":5973.36,"text":"我希望在法條協商期限結束之前"},{"start":5973.36,"end":5975.36,"text":"我們一定會提出"},{"start":5975.36,"end":5977.36,"text":"一個月嘛"},{"start":5977.36,"end":5979.36,"text":"他提出他的方案啦"},{"start":5985.71,"end":5987.71,"text":"第十條之一跟"},{"start":5987.71,"end":5989.71,"text":"因為第69條還有修正動議"},{"start":5989.71,"end":5991.71,"text":"會連動"},{"start":5993.83,"end":5995.83,"text":"好接下來我們進行第60條"},{"start":5998.15,"end":6000.15,"text":"那我再跟各位委員複習一下"},{"start":6000.15,"end":6002.15,"text":"因為第60條我剛剛看過"},{"start":6002.15,"end":6004.15,"text":"就是跟剛剛我們第"},{"start":6004.15,"end":6006.15,"text":"第三條的第19款的這些"},{"start":6006.15,"end":6008.15,"text":"定義天然菜"},{"start":6008.15,"end":6010.15,"text":"還要訂到這邊來"},{"start":6010.15,"end":6012.15,"text":"所以這邊就請"},{"start":6012.24,"end":6014.24,"text":"剛剛應該有說明過"},{"start":6014.24,"end":6016.24,"text":"對 都說過啦"},{"start":6016.42,"end":6018.42,"text":"還要再說明喔"},{"start":6021.06,"end":6023.06,"text":"第60條來"},{"start":6023.06,"end":6025.06,"text":"為什麼要保留"},{"start":6026.77,"end":6028.77,"text":"現在改啊"},{"start":6028.77,"end":6030.77,"text":"我要跟委員報告喔"},{"start":6030.7,"end":6032.7,"text":"我當然都知道"},{"start":6032.7,"end":6034.7,"text":"包括我們自己農業補給之下"},{"start":6034.7,"end":6036.7,"text":"一定是農民受到了一些天然災害"},{"start":6036.7,"end":6038.7,"text":"或您所關切的一些動物的影響的時候"},{"start":6038.7,"end":6040.7,"text":"一定要想辦法去協助"},{"start":6040.7,"end":6042.7,"text":"可是相對的法一定的時候"},{"start":6042.7,"end":6044.7,"text":"一定要他可執行性啦"},{"start":6044.7,"end":6046.7,"text":"那天然災害的部分是沒問題"},{"start":6046.7,"end":6048.7,"text":"我們很有經驗的"},{"start":6048.7,"end":6050.7,"text":"那天然災害導致的病蟲害的部分"},{"start":6050.7,"end":6052.7,"text":"我想我們也沒問題"},{"start":6052.7,"end":6054.7,"text":"可以去如果認定"},{"start":6054.7,"end":6056.7,"text":"但是唯一的就是"},{"start":6056.7,"end":6058.7,"text":"李委員提到動物性"},{"start":6058.7,"end":6060.7,"text":"特別是野生動物的部分"},{"start":6060.7,"end":6062.7,"text":"因為他的危害本身的樣態"},{"start":6062.7,"end":6064.7,"text":"跟他未來認定"},{"start":6064.7,"end":6066.7,"text":"這個我們大概已經花了兩個月的時間"},{"start":6066.7,"end":6068.7,"text":"在內部討論"},{"start":6068.7,"end":6070.7,"text":"也跟外界做溝通"},{"start":6070.7,"end":6072.7,"text":"還沒有辦法有一個很明確的認定的標準"},{"start":6072.7,"end":6074.7,"text":"因為沒有認定標準"},{"start":6074.7,"end":6076.7,"text":"就沒辦法執行啦"},{"start":6076.7,"end":6078.7,"text":"所以我認為這個部分"},{"start":6078.7,"end":6080.7,"text":"我們把天然災害所引起的這個"},{"start":6080.7,"end":6082.7,"text":"這個植物病蟲害的部分納入是OK的"},{"start":6082.7,"end":6084.7,"text":"但是如果把動物"},{"start":6084.7,"end":6086.7,"text":"野生動物進去的時候"},{"start":6086.7,"end":6088.7,"text":"那就會比較好"},{"start":6088.7,"end":6090.7,"text":"還有保育動物"},{"start":6090.7,"end":6092.7,"text":"因為有的唯一寫保育動物啦"},{"start":6092.7,"end":6094.7,"text":"那猴子不是保育類的喔"},{"start":6094.7,"end":6096.7,"text":"那就會有非常非常不同的動物出來了"},{"start":6096.7,"end":6098.7,"text":"所以這個部分我想"},{"start":6098.7,"end":6100.7,"text":"動物的部分是不是可以先不放"},{"start":6100.7,"end":6102.7,"text":"放在這個條文裡面"},{"start":6106.99,"end":6108.99,"text":"好 李一鯉委員"},{"start":6126.13,"end":6128.13,"text":"在什麼情況之下才會啟動這個救助"},{"start":6128.13,"end":6130.13,"text":"我們也請教過了很多農民"},{"start":6130.13,"end":6132.13,"text":"在座談會裡面"},{"start":6132.13,"end":6134.13,"text":"每個人講話都不一樣"},{"start":6135.54,"end":6137.54,"text":"他是單塊田看"},{"start":6137.54,"end":6139.54,"text":"還是普遍性的看"},{"start":6139.54,"end":6141.54,"text":"每一個農民的想法都不一樣"},{"start":6141.54,"end":6143.54,"text":"所以這個部分是非常"},{"start":6143.54,"end":6145.54,"text":"就是要聚集成一個"},{"start":6145.54,"end":6147.54,"text":"有共識而且可執行"},{"start":6147.54,"end":6149.54,"text":"我說法一定要可執行啦"},{"start":6149.54,"end":6151.54,"text":"那現階段這個部分"},{"start":6151.54,"end":6153.54,"text":"還真的是很難處理 我們還在努力當中"},{"start":6154.46,"end":6156.46,"text":"主席我建議好不好"},{"start":6156.46,"end":6158.46,"text":"因為你也找過專家"},{"start":6158.46,"end":6160.46,"text":"保育類的動物"},{"start":6160.46,"end":6162.46,"text":"不只是保育類"},{"start":6162.46,"end":6164.46,"text":"你剛剛講的還有猴子嘛"},{"start":6164.46,"end":6166.46,"text":"這些你都請專家研究過了"},{"start":6166.46,"end":6168.46,"text":"這個問題已經很久了"},{"start":6168.45,"end":6170.45,"text":"那可不可以一樣"},{"start":6170.45,"end":6172.45,"text":"一個月內你們研究出來"},{"start":6172.45,"end":6174.45,"text":"我們先保留你研究出來"},{"start":6174.83,"end":6176.83,"text":"一個月可以嗎"},{"start":6179.77,"end":6181.77,"text":"一個月"},{"start":6181.77,"end":6183.77,"text":"我剛才說的"},{"start":6183.77,"end":6185.77,"text":"像這個特別是比較重要的動物性的"},{"start":6185.77,"end":6187.77,"text":"危害我們一定要想辦法啟動"},{"start":6187.77,"end":6189.77,"text":"一個機制去救助"},{"start":6189.77,"end":6191.77,"text":"我已經承諾這個 但是"},{"start":6191.77,"end":6193.77,"text":"我的問題是我在執行面"},{"start":6193.77,"end":6195.77,"text":"還沒有辦法找到一個基準"},{"start":6195.77,"end":6197.77,"text":"是可以"},{"start":6197.77,"end":6199.77,"text":"這個一個月就動不到"},{"start":6199.77,"end":6201.77,"text":"這個基準有哪些動物會危害"},{"start":6201.77,"end":6203.77,"text":"這個都很明確了"},{"start":6203.77,"end":6205.77,"text":"農民都清楚哪些動物"},{"start":6205.77,"end":6207.77,"text":"專家也都清楚"},{"start":6207.77,"end":6209.77,"text":"這就是動物的危害"},{"start":6209.77,"end":6211.77,"text":"很難去計算"},{"start":6211.55,"end":6213.55,"text":"因為天才不是說你一陣子"},{"start":6213.55,"end":6215.55,"text":"把年齡水果"},{"start":6215.55,"end":6217.55,"text":"很要賠償"},{"start":6217.55,"end":6219.55,"text":"這個就沒完沒了"},{"start":6219.26,"end":6221.26,"text":"你們都會有專家在鑑定"},{"start":6221.26,"end":6223.26,"text":"都會去考核"},{"start":6224.7,"end":6226.7,"text":"這個就是我們有包括您講的"},{"start":6226.7,"end":6228.7,"text":"保育類動物"},{"start":6228.7,"end":6230.7,"text":"野生動物"},{"start":6230.7,"end":6232.7,"text":"那狗呢"},{"start":6232.02,"end":6234.02,"text":"因為也有一些地區不是被狗"},{"start":6234.02,"end":6236.02,"text":"所以他"},{"start":6236.02,"end":6238.02,"text":"通牌把列入來研究"},{"start":6238.02,"end":6240.02,"text":"每一個樣態是不一樣的"},{"start":6240.02,"end":6242.02,"text":"所以我說我們已經在做"},{"start":6242.02,"end":6244.02,"text":"但是一個月沒辦法把所有的動物"},{"start":6244.15,"end":6246.15,"text":"我覺得至少要三個月"},{"start":6246.3,"end":6248.3,"text":"我覺得至少要三個月才能夠"},{"start":6248.3,"end":6250.3,"text":"有一點可以去討論的"},{"start":6251.17,"end":6253.17,"text":"陳聰"},{"start":6273.13,"end":6275.13,"text":"危害的認定"},{"start":6275.13,"end":6277.13,"text":"栽損嘛"},{"start":6277.13,"end":6279.13,"text":"你講的是栽損"},{"start":6279.13,"end":6281.13,"text":"好趕快研究"},{"start":6281.13,"end":6283.13,"text":"兩個月時間"},{"start":6283.13,"end":6285.13,"text":"我覺得有困難"},{"start":6285.13,"end":6287.13,"text":"那你三個月一定要有結果出來"},{"start":6287.13,"end":6289.13,"text":"我上個月一定會有個版本給委員了解"},{"start":6289.13,"end":6291.13,"text":"我可以願意提一個專案報告來處理"},{"start":6291.13,"end":6293.13,"text":"陳聰"},{"start":6293.24,"end":6295.24,"text":"世界情形沒你說的那麼困難"},{"start":6296.38,"end":6298.38,"text":"你知道狗在這裡是從外圍先吃"},{"start":6298.38,"end":6300.38,"text":"吃飽了牠就不去了"},{"start":6300.38,"end":6302.38,"text":"那不飽再進來"},{"start":6302.38,"end":6304.38,"text":"所以我告訴你"},{"start":6304.38,"end":6306.38,"text":"我都有去看過"},{"start":6306.38,"end":6308.38,"text":"牠吃的話那水果是怎麼吃"},{"start":6308.38,"end":6310.38,"text":"大概排一排就丟在地下"},{"start":6310.38,"end":6312.38,"text":"排一排牠又不能帶回去"},{"start":6312.38,"end":6314.38,"text":"我告訴你牠是用困的啦"},{"start":6314.38,"end":6316.38,"text":"你跟農民你把我一隻一隻的"},{"start":6316.38,"end":6318.38,"text":"收出來有一樣一隻一隻的沒一樣"},{"start":6318.38,"end":6320.38,"text":"而且"},{"start":6320.38,"end":6322.38,"text":"活該的話喔"},{"start":6322.38,"end":6324.38,"text":"不是很大大概你圍完出來"},{"start":6324.38,"end":6326.38,"text":"你去投資會很累啦"},{"start":6326.38,"end":6328.38,"text":"但是也是有"},{"start":6328.38,"end":6330.38,"text":"其實這個地方跟你天然災害比起來"},{"start":6330.38,"end":6332.38,"text":"只有一點點你這樣去計較"},{"start":6332.38,"end":6334.38,"text":"那些"},{"start":6334.38,"end":6336.38,"text":"那是你挑戰的沒有要檢討"},{"start":6336.38,"end":6338.38,"text":"我告訴你"},{"start":6338.38,"end":6340.38,"text":"那是人家喔"},{"start":6340.38,"end":6342.38,"text":"抱歉告訴你保護動物"},{"start":6342.38,"end":6344.38,"text":"我來委員報告"},{"start":6344.38,"end":6346.38,"text":"我感覺你還兩個月"},{"start":6346.38,"end":6348.38,"text":"好啦給你兩個月啦"},{"start":6348.38,"end":6350.38,"text":"猴子真的也來明天來後天來"},{"start":6350.38,"end":6352.38,"text":"你第二十一條"},{"start":6352.38,"end":6354.38,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":6354.38,"end":6356.38,"text":"農民做家庭家庭"},{"start":6356.38,"end":6358.38,"text":"水產養殖"},{"start":6358.38,"end":6360.38,"text":"你用這條來就可以了"},{"start":6360.38,"end":6362.38,"text":"你說牠常常來"},{"start":6362.38,"end":6364.38,"text":"牠吃的話沒有那麼嚴重"},{"start":6364.94,"end":6366.94,"text":"OK的"},{"start":6366.45,"end":6368.45,"text":"農民會受不了"},{"start":6368.45,"end":6370.45,"text":"受害的固定外圍的那幾個地區啊"},{"start":6372.69,"end":6374.69,"text":"我曾經去看猴海喔"},{"start":6374.69,"end":6376.69,"text":"牠是整封給你吞掉了喔"},{"start":6376.69,"end":6378.69,"text":"吞掉那個"},{"start":6378.69,"end":6380.69,"text":"那個很明顯你都很難去救"},{"start":6380.69,"end":6382.69,"text":"牠不是每一顆全部把你摘喔"},{"start":6382.69,"end":6384.69,"text":"牠這一顆把你摘一格"},{"start":6384.69,"end":6386.69,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":6386.69,"end":6388.69,"text":"在看這個東西的時候"},{"start":6388.69,"end":6390.69,"text":"至少要有個基準嘛"},{"start":6390.69,"end":6392.69,"text":"不能說一顆嘛"},{"start":6392.69,"end":6394.69,"text":"一顆也不會啦"},{"start":6394.69,"end":6396.69,"text":"一顆我們投小報就給農民了啦"},{"start":6396.69,"end":6398.69,"text":"我是擔心未來"},{"start":6398.69,"end":6400.69,"text":"公所在查勘的時候"},{"start":6400.69,"end":6402.69,"text":"沒有依據的時候"},{"start":6402.69,"end":6404.69,"text":"是沒有辦法執行的啦"},{"start":6404.69,"end":6406.69,"text":"楊瓊元委員在鄭天才委員之後"},{"start":6406.69,"end":6408.69,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":6408.78,"end":6410.78,"text":"這個喔"},{"start":6410.78,"end":6412.78,"text":"因為我一直在強調說"},{"start":6412.78,"end":6414.78,"text":"我們為什麼一直說"},{"start":6413.27,"end":6415.27,"text":"這個天然災害損失"},{"start":6415.27,"end":6417.27,"text":"以往沒有說"},{"start":6417.27,"end":6419.27,"text":"猴子沒有加入在裡面"},{"start":6419.27,"end":6421.27,"text":"動物"},{"start":6421.27,"end":6423.27,"text":"我們現在意識到動物"},{"start":6423.27,"end":6425.27,"text":"牠跟人類越來越親越來越密切"},{"start":6425.27,"end":6427.27,"text":"進行啊什麼越來越密切"},{"start":6427.27,"end":6429.27,"text":"所以我們發覺到牠也有破壞"},{"start":6430,"end":6432,"text":"因為有破壞的情況之下"},{"start":6432,"end":6434,"text":"我覺得我們討論這個議題"},{"start":6434,"end":6436,"text":"應該是結果論"},{"start":6436.38,"end":6438.38,"text":"不是哪一種動物"},{"start":6438.38,"end":6440.38,"text":"不是牠保育不保育"},{"start":6440.38,"end":6442.38,"text":"我們應該是在保護農民"},{"start":6442.38,"end":6444.38,"text":"牠的農損"},{"start":6444.38,"end":6446.38,"text":"比如說我們的天然災害"},{"start":6446.38,"end":6448.38,"text":"你超過了20%"},{"start":6448.38,"end":6450.38,"text":"我們都要去計算嘛"},{"start":6450.38,"end":6452.38,"text":"你講的有一個標準嘛"},{"start":6452.38,"end":6454.38,"text":"那牠就可以公布這個現金救助了嘛"},{"start":6454.38,"end":6456.38,"text":"那你應該是"},{"start":6456.38,"end":6458.38,"text":"定一個標準"},{"start":6458.38,"end":6460.38,"text":"到底是標準要多少"},{"start":6460.38,"end":6462.38,"text":"你要比照"},{"start":6462.38,"end":6464.38,"text":"天然災害的這個20%"},{"start":6464.38,"end":6466.38,"text":"還是因為動物跟"},{"start":6467.44,"end":6469.44,"text":"整個氣候又不一樣"},{"start":6469.44,"end":6471.44,"text":"牠是有區塊的問題啊"},{"start":6471.44,"end":6473.44,"text":"牠不是整區的問題啊"},{"start":6473.44,"end":6475.44,"text":"牠集中在那裡啊"},{"start":6475.44,"end":6477.44,"text":"所以你應該是"},{"start":6477.44,"end":6479.44,"text":"用農損的損害"},{"start":6479.44,"end":6481.44,"text":"去來定你的標準"},{"start":6481.44,"end":6483.44,"text":"我們在地方政府的時候"},{"start":6483.44,"end":6485.44,"text":"各公所"},{"start":6485.44,"end":6487.44,"text":"區公所也好"},{"start":6487.44,"end":6489.44,"text":"鄉鎮公所"},{"start":6489.44,"end":6491.44,"text":"牠才有所依歸"},{"start":6491.44,"end":6493.44,"text":"你要定的是這個"},{"start":6493.44,"end":6495.44,"text":"而不是今天定猴子明天定什麼"},{"start":6495.44,"end":6497.44,"text":"牠一直跑出來啊"},{"start":6497.44,"end":6499.44,"text":"螞蟻現在很嚴重啊"},{"start":6499.44,"end":6501.44,"text":"對不對 小鳥也很嚴重啊"},{"start":6501.44,"end":6503.44,"text":"小鳥跟你那裡吃一口"},{"start":6503.44,"end":6505.44,"text":"那裡吃一口 你是整顆都不硬了捏"},{"start":6505.44,"end":6507.44,"text":"就像你說的啊"},{"start":6507.39,"end":6509.39,"text":"咖哇牠是整個自己吞吞去啊捏"},{"start":6510.74,"end":6512.74,"text":"對不對 你是應該"},{"start":6512.74,"end":6514.74,"text":"是定牠的農損"},{"start":6514.74,"end":6516.74,"text":"的一個標準 我個人"},{"start":6516.74,"end":6518.74,"text":"具體跟你建議你要定是這個"},{"start":6518.74,"end":6520.74,"text":"你把複雜的事情要"},{"start":6520.74,"end":6522.74,"text":"簡單化 因為你的目標"},{"start":6522.74,"end":6524.74,"text":"鎖定目標 我就是要照顧農民"},{"start":6525.31,"end":6527.31,"text":"我的目標要照顧農民"},{"start":6527.31,"end":6529.31,"text":"要協助農民"},{"start":6529.31,"end":6531.31,"text":"補償也是補償農民"},{"start":6531.48,"end":6533.48,"text":"是這個概念"},{"start":6533.48,"end":6535.48,"text":"那第二個是我自己所提的"},{"start":6535.48,"end":6537.48,"text":"我們現在你"},{"start":6537.48,"end":6539.48,"text":"包括了這個"},{"start":6539.48,"end":6541.48,"text":"現金救助的部分的那個金額"},{"start":6542.94,"end":6544.94,"text":"對不對 我每一年都一直"},{"start":6544.94,"end":6546.94,"text":"跟你在討論這個問題"},{"start":6546.94,"end":6548.94,"text":"你跟他把它定下來啊"},{"start":6548.94,"end":6550.94,"text":"你什麼時間 依照消費者指數"},{"start":6550.94,"end":6552.94,"text":"比較"},{"start":6552.94,"end":6554.94,"text":"然後你來公告知啊"},{"start":6554.94,"end":6556.94,"text":"當然本級的提案是說"},{"start":6556.94,"end":6558.94,"text":"如果是麻辣式的那就不要動"},{"start":6558.94,"end":6560.94,"text":"啊那普拉斯的你當然"},{"start":6560.94,"end":6562.94,"text":"就要依照那個比例來做調整啊"},{"start":6562.94,"end":6564.94,"text":"要不然每一次我們"},{"start":6564.94,"end":6566.94,"text":"所有的委員 至少我個人"},{"start":6566.94,"end":6568.94,"text":"每一次都萬一碰到"},{"start":6568.94,"end":6570.94,"text":"這個事情 最好不要碰到"},{"start":6570.94,"end":6572.94,"text":"不可能不碰到"},{"start":6572.94,"end":6574.94,"text":"每一年都要跟你討論這個"},{"start":6574.94,"end":6576.94,"text":"現在入不敷出啦"},{"start":6576.94,"end":6578.94,"text":"這個金額要怎麼樣"},{"start":6578.94,"end":6580.94,"text":"長久沒有調整 不可能啊"},{"start":6580.94,"end":6582.94,"text":"因為我們的農業成本越來越增加"},{"start":6582.94,"end":6584.94,"text":"所以要明定下來啊"},{"start":6584.94,"end":6586.94,"text":"這個是公道啊"},{"start":6587.46,"end":6589.46,"text":"謝謝委員喔 我剛才說的喔"},{"start":6589.46,"end":6591.46,"text":"我們現在最困擾就是定那個基準"},{"start":6591.46,"end":6593.46,"text":"那還有一件事情喔"},{"start":6593.46,"end":6595.46,"text":"就是他不像颱風"},{"start":6595.46,"end":6597.46,"text":"完了以後這一季我們就補補助了"},{"start":6597.46,"end":6599.46,"text":"因為他可能這個月來"},{"start":6599.78,"end":6601.78,"text":"他下個月又來"},{"start":6601.78,"end":6603.78,"text":"然後他下個禮拜又來"},{"start":6603.78,"end":6605.78,"text":"那樣連續性的部分我們怎麼樣去計算"},{"start":6605.78,"end":6607.78,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6608.92,"end":6610.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6638.92,"end":6640.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6640.92,"end":6642.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6642.92,"end":6644.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6644.92,"end":6646.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6646.92,"end":6648.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6648.92,"end":6650.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6650.92,"end":6652.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6652.92,"end":6654.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6654.92,"end":6656.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6656.92,"end":6658.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6658.92,"end":6660.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6660.92,"end":6662.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6662.92,"end":6664.92,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6664.92,"end":6666.92,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6656.09,"end":6658.09,"text":"我那個金額你們在講啊"},{"start":6658.09,"end":6660.09,"text":"我那個金額你們在講啊"},{"start":6660.09,"end":6662.09,"text":"金額的部分喔"},{"start":6662.09,"end":6664.09,"text":"我給委員報告喔"},{"start":6664.09,"end":6666.09,"text":"我應該給今年大幅調整的資料給您"},{"start":6666.09,"end":6668.09,"text":"我們也看到了"},{"start":6668.09,"end":6670.09,"text":"現在天然災害"},{"start":6670.09,"end":6672.09,"text":"我們每一年調一次"},{"start":6672,"end":6674,"text":"每一年調一次"},{"start":6674.73,"end":6676.73,"text":"20%平均拉到25%"},{"start":6676.73,"end":6678.73,"text":"20%平均拉到25%"},{"start":6678.73,"end":6680.73,"text":"那第三個是有一些多年生的果樹"},{"start":6680.73,"end":6682.73,"text":"那第三個是有一些多年生的果樹"},{"start":6682.73,"end":6684.73,"text":"它可以符合第二次災害的時候"},{"start":6684.73,"end":6686.73,"text":"所以我們有很多"},{"start":6686.73,"end":6688.73,"text":"您看得到的我們也看到了"},{"start":6688.73,"end":6690.73,"text":"所以我們一直在處理這個區塊"},{"start":6690.73,"end":6692.73,"text":"而且是每一年調整的部分"},{"start":6692.73,"end":6694.73,"text":"那很好啊每一年本席也是每一年"},{"start":6694.73,"end":6696.73,"text":"那你現在所說的"},{"start":6696.73,"end":6698.73,"text":"跟本席的提案"},{"start":6698.73,"end":6700.73,"text":"讓他明文化"},{"start":6700.73,"end":6702.73,"text":"那更好啊"},{"start":6702.73,"end":6704.73,"text":"但是你不能用CPI"},{"start":6704.73,"end":6706.73,"text":"因為農業的生產層面"},{"start":6706.73,"end":6708.73,"text":"不會每一項都是根據CPI在跑啊"},{"start":6710.86,"end":6712.86,"text":"CPI是消費指數"},{"start":6712.86,"end":6714.86,"text":"那我們算的天然災害救助"},{"start":6714.86,"end":6716.86,"text":"是用農業的生產成本"},{"start":6716.86,"end":6718.86,"text":"所以我們會調查農業生產成本"},{"start":6718.86,"end":6720.86,"text":"它跟CPI是沒有直接的關係"},{"start":6722.79,"end":6724.79,"text":"怎麼會沒有直接的關係"},{"start":6724.79,"end":6726.79,"text":"你調查你的農業成本"},{"start":6726.79,"end":6728.79,"text":"本來就是你的本業要做"},{"start":6728.79,"end":6730.79,"text":"農業成本一定會影響到"},{"start":6730.79,"end":6732.79,"text":"消費端"},{"start":6732.79,"end":6734.79,"text":"你不可能種起來不賣啊"},{"start":6734.79,"end":6736.79,"text":"我有的成本我高成本"},{"start":6736.79,"end":6738.79,"text":"當然我"},{"start":6738.79,"end":6740.79,"text":"所得獲取"},{"start":6740.79,"end":6742.79,"text":"會減少也獲取會增加"},{"start":6742.79,"end":6744.79,"text":"對不對"},{"start":6744.79,"end":6746.79,"text":"所以你要你現在做的好"},{"start":6746.79,"end":6748.79,"text":"你要把你的成本"},{"start":6748.79,"end":6750.79,"text":"因為每一年本席的意見就是說"},{"start":6750.79,"end":6752.79,"text":"你不要每一年我們講啊"},{"start":6752.79,"end":6754.79,"text":"你才來調整"},{"start":6754.79,"end":6756.79,"text":"我上任以後是每一年都調喔"},{"start":6758.22,"end":6760.22,"text":"你要去把它計算出來"},{"start":6760.22,"end":6762.22,"text":"對我們生產成本每一年都會重新計算"},{"start":6762.22,"end":6764.22,"text":"重新去調整"},{"start":6764.36,"end":6766.36,"text":"我要做天才為"},{"start":6766.55,"end":6768.55,"text":"好有關這個第60條"},{"start":6768.55,"end":6770.55,"text":"討論了很久"},{"start":6770.55,"end":6772.55,"text":"事實上是從剛才"},{"start":6773.22,"end":6775.22,"text":"這個前面的那個"},{"start":6775.22,"end":6777.22,"text":"第19款的時候"},{"start":6777.22,"end":6779.22,"text":"就開始討論了"},{"start":6779.34,"end":6781.34,"text":"這個"},{"start":6780.93,"end":6782.93,"text":"農業不好"},{"start":6782.92,"end":6784.92,"text":"要特別去"},{"start":6785.94,"end":6787.94,"text":"重視"},{"start":6787.51,"end":6789.51,"text":"立法委員所提的提案"},{"start":6790.36,"end":6792.36,"text":"我們就講這個"},{"start":6792.88,"end":6794.88,"text":"野生兔保義"},{"start":6795,"end":6797,"text":"所保育的這些動物"},{"start":6797.42,"end":6799.42,"text":"不只是我們李一林委員提"},{"start":6799.42,"end":6801.42,"text":"其他委員也都有提"},{"start":6805.18,"end":6807.18,"text":"事實上是產生了這個問題"},{"start":6807.96,"end":6809.96,"text":"因為法律"},{"start":6810.43,"end":6812.43,"text":"法律保障保育的這些動物"},{"start":6814.36,"end":6816.36,"text":"所以這些動物"},{"start":6816.36,"end":6818.36,"text":"他到底要吃啊"},{"start":6818.16,"end":6820.16,"text":"他當然要吃他當然就吃這些農作物"},{"start":6820.16,"end":6822.16,"text":"就方便了"},{"start":6823.35,"en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為什麼"},{"start":7204.69,"end":7206.69,"text":"因為野包法是你們負責的啊"},{"start":7206.97,"end":7208.97,"text":"野包法的保育類野生動物是你們定義的"},{"start":7208.97,"end":7210.97,"text":"你們林保署在這裡嘛"},{"start":7210.97,"end":7212.97,"text":"就是你農業部定義的嘛"},{"start":7212.97,"end":7214.97,"text":"農業部基於整個國家"},{"start":7214.97,"end":7216.97,"text":"負責你們機關的任務"},{"start":7216.97,"end":7218.97,"text":"要對整個大自然的自然生態"},{"start":7218.97,"end":7220.97,"text":"這些野生動物要保育"},{"start":7220.97,"end":7222.97,"text":"他病因絕種要保育"},{"start":7222.97,"end":7224.97,"text":"那基於保育是基於整個社會的公法意"},{"start":7224.97,"end":7226.97,"text":"但是當公法意跟市法意"},{"start":7226.97,"end":7228.97,"text":"有侵犯的時候"},{"start":7228.97,"end":7230.97,"text":"你要補償嘛"},{"start":7230.97,"end":7232.97,"text":"假如說今天梅花鹿是我們要保育的野生動物"},{"start":7232.97,"end":7234.97,"text":"要絕種了"},{"start":7234.97,"end":7236.97,"text":"我們農民種的黑豆被他啃食了"},{"start":7236.97,"end":7238.97,"text":"甚至造成我們肯定國家公園"},{"start":7238.97,"end":7240.97,"text":"那些稀有的林相"},{"start":7240.97,"end":7242.97,"text":"被他啃食了"},{"start":7244.33,"end":7246.33,"text":"那你要怎麼辦"},{"start":7246.33,"end":7248.33,"text":"兩邊都要保育啊"},{"start":7248.08,"end":7250.08,"text":"那當然你們野保法當中"},{"start":7250.08,"end":7252.08,"text":"為什麼對保有不要的野生動物"},{"start":7252.08,"end":7254.08,"text":"跟農民的衝突"},{"start":7254.08,"end":7256.08,"text":"很多是來自於棲地嘛"},{"start":7255.62,"end":7257.62,"text":"可能他這個棲地縮小"},{"start":7257.62,"end":7259.62,"text":"以至於病因絕種"},{"start":7259.62,"end":7261.62,"text":"你要復育"},{"start":7261.62,"end":7263.62,"text":"那他復育之後他的棲地不夠"},{"start":7263.62,"end":7265.62,"text":"他就要往外擴張"},{"start":7265.62,"end":7267.62,"text":"擴張就進入到農民的已開發地區"},{"start":7267.62,"end":7269.62,"text":"那如果你們認為為了要讓他繼續生存下去"},{"start":7269.62,"end":7271.62,"text":"難免會侵犯到農民已經開發的地區"},{"start":7271.62,"end":7273.62,"text":"那當然要給農民補償嘛"},{"start":7274.22,"end":7278.22,"text":"不然的話你就是限制到棲地不要侵犯到農民已開發土地嘛"},{"start":7278.22,"end":7280.22,"text":"這個是野生類的保育動物"},{"start":7280.22,"end":7284.22,"text":"他的棲地跟農民已開發的農業用地之間的衝突"},{"start":7284.22,"end":7286.22,"text":"這個衝突是農業部可以調試的"},{"start":7287.15,"end":7289.15,"text":"所以農業部要去對這個部分進行調試"},{"start":7289.15,"end":7291.15,"text":"要不你就認為這個已經很多了"},{"start":7291.15,"end":7293.15,"text":"沒包爐很多了不用保育了"},{"start":7293.15,"end":7295.15,"text":"那農民可能怎麼處理"},{"start":7295.31,"end":7297.31,"text":"農民就可以補砂嘛"},{"start":7297.24,"end":7299.24,"text":"那你補砂動保團又抗議"},{"start":7299.24,"end":7301.24,"text":"動保團也搞不出這是保育類"},{"start":7301.24,"end":7303.24,"text":"他已經富裕到不需要保育了"},{"start":7303.63,"end":7305.63,"text":"澳洲的袋鼠都有在補砂"},{"start":7306.37,"end":7308.37,"text":"有沒有 有嘛"},{"start":7307.7,"end":7309.7,"text":"那澳洲的袋鼠是不是袋鼠說很可愛"},{"start":7309.7,"end":7310.7,"text":"澳洲的象徵"},{"start":7310.7,"end":7312.7,"text":"那澳洲政府有禁止農民去補砂嗎"},{"start":7313.62,"end":7317.62,"text":"也是因為為了農民的農業設施的農業的使用"},{"start":7317.62,"end":7322.62,"text":"他也開放給農民去限制這些已經不是保育類的野生動物"},{"start":7322.62,"end":7323.62,"text":"一定的數量"},{"start":7324.83,"end":7326.83,"text":"那農民現在是不知道要怎麼搞"},{"start":7326.83,"end":7328.83,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":7328.83,"end":7330.83,"text":"可以但是農民有沒有事"},{"start":7330.83,"end":7332.83,"text":"台灣是槍支管制的國家"},{"start":7334.07,"end":7336.07,"text":"猴子很難處理啦"},{"start":7335.96,"end":7337.96,"text":"綠烈溪我們現在是開放補砂嘛"},{"start":7337.96,"end":7339.96,"text":"那目前開放補砂用什麼工具"},{"start":7341.65,"end":7343.65,"text":"用什麼工具"},{"start":7344.05,"end":7346.05,"text":"用繩索補捉"},{"start":7346.05,"end":7348.05,"text":"用彈弓補捉"},{"start":7348.05,"end":7351.05,"text":"對不對 甚至我們地方政府還有開班"},{"start":7351.05,"end":7353.05,"text":"告訴這些合格的人"},{"start":7353.05,"end":7355.05,"text":"訓練他怎麼去捕捉綠烈溪"},{"start":7355.05,"end":7357.05,"text":"甚至有人主張找射擊國手來打"},{"start":7357.55,"end":7359.55,"text":"你們農業部林包署也有啊"},{"start":7359.55,"end":7361.55,"text":"林包署可以起來回應一下"},{"start":7361.55,"end":7363.55,"text":"林包署是不是有買獵槍"},{"start":7363.54,"end":7365.54,"text":"買了獵槍之後花那麼多錢"},{"start":7365.54,"end":7367.54,"text":"有沒有獵手 有沒有獵人"},{"start":7367.99,"end":7369.99,"text":"你們開放獵人用獵槍"},{"start":7369.99,"end":7371.99,"text":"買了獵槍"},{"start":7371.99,"end":7373.99,"text":"徵集獵人去打綠烈溪"},{"start":7374.93,"end":7376.93,"text":"效果其實沒有很好"},{"start":7377.36,"end":7380.36,"text":"所以其實這個觀念不要混在一起"},{"start":7380.36,"end":7382.36,"text":"旅委員的版本講的就是"},{"start":7382.36,"end":7384.36,"text":"保育類的野生動物"},{"start":7384.36,"end":7386.36,"text":"是政府明文要保障的公法役"},{"start":7386.36,"end":7388.36,"text":"當這個公法役侵犯到"},{"start":7388.36,"end":7390.36,"text":"跟人民的司法有衝突的時候"},{"start":7390.36,"end":7392.36,"text":"你主管機關你要進行救助跟補償嘛"},{"start":7393.24,"end":7394.24,"text":"不然你就說這不用保育了"},{"start":7394.24,"end":7395.24,"text":"這太多了不用保育"},{"start":7395.24,"end":7397.24,"text":"那盡量的保育"},{"start":7397.24,"end":7399.24,"text":"那農民的 他的棲地跟農民的"},{"start":7399.24,"end":7401.24,"text":"開育肯定地產生的衝突重疊"},{"start":7401.24,"end":7403.24,"text":"他的破壞農作的行為要不要救助"},{"start":7403.24,"end":7405.24,"text":"我是認為要救助"},{"start":7405.39,"end":7407.39,"text":"所以我認為旅委員的版本"},{"start":7407.39,"end":7408.39,"text":"其實在我看來"},{"start":7408.39,"end":7409.39,"text":"你們好好地思考一下"},{"start":7409.39,"end":7411.39,"text":"並沒有所謂的自害難行不當之處"},{"start":7411.39,"end":7412.39,"text":"以上"},{"start":7412.39,"end":7413.39,"text":"我先稍微說明一下"},{"start":7413.39,"end":7415.39,"text":"這個非常重要"},{"start":7415.39,"end":7416.39,"text":"旅委員的版本裡面"},{"start":7416.39,"end":7417.39,"text":"他是指的是"},{"start":7417.39,"end":7419.39,"text":"野生動物保護法所訂的"},{"start":7419.39,"end":7420.39,"text":"保育類野生動物"},{"start":7420.39,"end":7422.39,"text":"那我在講的部分是"},{"start":7422.39,"end":7423.39,"text":"真正的遇到天然障礙的"},{"start":7423.39,"end":7424.39,"text":"不是保育類動物"},{"start":7424.39,"end":7425.39,"text":"猴子不是保育類動物"},{"start":7425.39,"end":7427.39,"text":"山豬不是保育類動物"},{"start":7429.45,"end":7430.45,"text":"不是"},{"start":7430.45,"end":7432.45,"text":"我是在強調就是說"},{"start":7432.45,"end":7434.45,"text":"在立這個法的時候"},{"start":7434.45,"end":7437.45,"text":"只寫到野生動物的保育類動物的時候"},{"start":7437.45,"end":7440.45,"text":"沒有辦法解決現在農民所遭遇的問題"},{"start":7440.45,"end":7442.45,"text":"我承認的就是這個而已"},{"start":7442.45,"end":7443.45,"text":"但是那沒有"},{"start":7443.45,"end":7445.45,"text":"委員沒有要求你去做你的問題嗎"},{"start":7445.45,"end":7446.45,"text":"那部長的意思是說"},{"start":7446.45,"end":7447.45,"text":"保育拿掉就可以是嗎"},{"start":7447.45,"end":7448.45,"text":"不是"},{"start":7448.45,"end":7449.45,"text":"所以我才會說"},{"start":7449.45,"end":7450.45,"text":"我才會說"},{"start":7450.45,"end":7451.45,"text":"你說"},{"start":7451.45,"end":7452.45,"text":"沒有"},{"start":7452.45,"end":7453.45,"text":"委員所訂的東西"},{"start":7453.45,"end":7455.45,"text":"也是為了減少農民損失"},{"start":7455.45,"end":7457.45,"text":"我只是回應現況"},{"start":7457.99,"end":7460.99,"text":"其實呂委員的版本目前"},{"start":7460.99,"end":7461.99,"text":"並沒有要求你們"},{"start":7461.99,"end":7463.99,"text":"針對非保育類野生動物"},{"start":7463.99,"end":7464.99,"text":"要進行救助"},{"start":7466.48,"end":7467.48,"text":"受害"},{"start":7467.48,"end":7469.48,"text":"委員講的受害有很多種"},{"start":7469.48,"end":7471.48,"text":"呂委員只針對保育類野生動物造成的受害"},{"start":7471.48,"end":7472.48,"text":"你要救助"},{"start":7472.48,"end":7474.48,"text":"其他委員關心的受害"},{"start":7474.48,"end":7475.48,"text":"彌猴的受害"},{"start":7475.48,"end":7476.48,"text":"梅花鹿的受害"},{"start":7476.48,"end":7477.48,"text":"那些的受害"},{"start":7477.48,"end":7479.48,"text":"那你們怎麼去調整"},{"start":7479.48,"end":7480.48,"text":"委員說了嘛"},{"start":7480.48,"end":7481.48,"text":"三個月提出一個報告"},{"start":7481.98,"end":7482.98,"text":"這樣子啦"},{"start":7482.98,"end":7485.98,"text":"那個第60條有幾個議案"},{"start":7486.98,"end":7490.98,"text":"第一個就是農損的來源"},{"start":7490.98,"end":7492.98,"text":"它有保育跟非保育動物類別"},{"start":7494.18,"end":7497.18,"text":"但是我們大家一致的共同目標就是說"},{"start":7497.18,"end":7498.18,"text":"只要是農損"},{"start":7499.13,"end":7500.13,"text":"有達到我們的標準"},{"start":7500.13,"end":7502.13,"text":"政府應該要協助"},{"start":7502.13,"end":7504.13,"text":"這是大家達成一個共識"},{"start":7504.13,"end":7507.13,"text":"那所以至於文字上面"},{"start":7507.13,"end":7508.13,"text":"既然我們的目標一次"},{"start":7508.13,"end":7510.13,"text":"那文字上面"},{"start":7510.13,"end":7512.13,"text":"我就充分建議"},{"start":7512.13,"end":7514.13,"text":"就跟這個第10條"},{"start":7515.94,"end":7518.94,"text":"第1條跟第69條一樣"},{"start":7518.94,"end":7520.94,"text":"我們就是一個月你們提出"},{"start":7520.94,"end":7521.94,"text":"那"},{"start":7522.96,"end":7523.96,"text":"我們送出"},{"start":7523.96,"end":7525.96,"text":"然後協商"},{"start":7525.96,"end":7527.96,"text":"那趁著這個一個月的時間"},{"start":7527.96,"end":7530.96,"text":"請行政部門去提出"},{"start":7530.96,"end":7532.96,"text":"因為目標都已經一次"},{"start":7532.96,"end":7533.96,"text":"那這個部分另外"},{"start":7533.96,"end":7535.96,"text":"也就是我非常在意的"},{"start":7535.96,"end":7539.96,"text":"我們每一年的現金救助的標準"},{"start":7540.69,"end":7541.69,"text":"不管是農業"},{"start":7542.48,"end":7544.48,"text":"所產生的成本成長"},{"start":7544.48,"end":7546.48,"text":"或者是CPI的成本成長"},{"start":7546.48,"end":7548.48,"text":"這些我們的來源"},{"start":7548.48,"end":7551.48,"text":"是依據什麼每一年去做調整"},{"start":7551.48,"end":7555.48,"text":"我認為必須要去把它列出來"},{"start":7555.48,"end":7557.48,"text":"那我充分建議主席臺"},{"start":7557.48,"end":7558.48,"text":"各位同仁"},{"start":7558.48,"end":7560.48,"text":"跟行政部門就是說"},{"start":7560.48,"end":7562.48,"text":"這一個大家好不容易討論這麼久"},{"start":7562.48,"end":7564.48,"text":"已經達成共識"},{"start":7564.48,"end":7565.48,"text":"我再重複講"},{"start":7565.48,"end":7567.48,"text":"也就是只要是農損的"},{"start":7567.48,"end":7569.48,"text":"不管你是保育類"},{"start":7570.12,"end":7571.12,"text":"保護類"},{"start":7571.12,"end":7574.12,"text":"或者是一般動物影響農損"},{"start":7574.12,"end":7575.12,"text":"我們結果論就是"},{"start":7575.12,"end":7578.12,"text":"農損的我們是要補助給農民"},{"start":7578.12,"end":7581.12,"text":"那另外就是本席所提出的"},{"start":7581.12,"end":7583.12,"text":"現金救助的標準來源"},{"start":7583.12,"end":7585.12,"text":"要依據什麼去訂定資"},{"start":7585.12,"end":7588.12,"text":"我認為這個必須要說明清楚"},{"start":7588.12,"end":7590.12,"text":"因為我們大家都贊成"},{"start":7590.12,"end":7591.12,"text":"農民這麼辛苦"},{"start":7591.12,"end":7592.12,"text":"不是去吃"},{"start":7592.12,"end":7594.12,"text":"不是每年來拜託來賓"},{"start":7594.12,"end":7595.12,"text":"不必要這樣子"},{"start":7595.12,"end":7597.12,"text":"你給他一個合理"},{"start":7597.12,"end":7598.12,"text":"大家都歡喜"},{"start":7598.12,"end":7599.12,"text":"好不好"},{"start":7599.12,"end":7600.12,"text":"所以充分建議"},{"start":7600.12,"end":7601.12,"text":"一樣是一個月"},{"start":7601.12,"end":7602.12,"text":"你們去提出"},{"start":7602.12,"end":7604.12,"text":"我們趁著這個時間"},{"start":7604.12,"end":7605.12,"text":"大家好好來討論"},{"start":7605.12,"end":7606.12,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7607.81,"end":7611.81,"text":"我剛也要處理了"},{"start":7611.81,"end":7612.81,"text":"因為剛剛李永維"},{"start":7612.81,"end":7614.81,"text":"那三個月我是不同意的"},{"start":7614.81,"end":7615.81,"text":"因為我"},{"start":7617.14,"end":7618.14,"text":"三個月的什麼"},{"start":7618.14,"end":7620.14,"text":"那個寫出那個"},{"start":7620.44,"end":7621.44,"text":"對啊"},{"start":7621.76,"end":7622.76,"text":"沒有"},{"start":7622.76,"end":7624.76,"text":"我是要一個月的"},{"start":7624.76,"end":7625.76,"text":"為什麼呢"},{"start":7625.76,"end":7626.76,"text":"這個在我們當初"},{"start":7626.76,"end":7628.76,"text":"在做土產法律修改"},{"start":7628.76,"end":7629.76,"text":"就已經跟你們農業部"},{"start":7629.76,"end":7632.76,"text":"就已經同步都是一併溝通"},{"start":7632.76,"end":7634.76,"text":"然後溝通了那麼久"},{"start":7634.76,"end":7635.76,"text":"我們經濟部的所有的土壤"},{"start":7635.76,"end":7636.76,"text":"都已經過了"},{"start":7636.76,"end":7637.76,"text":"三讀都過了"},{"start":7637.76,"end":7639.76,"text":"今天還在討論這一個"},{"start":7639.76,"end":7641.76,"text":"你們又自己又沒有版本"},{"start":7642.5,"end":7644.5,"text":"然後前面兩次溝通也說"},{"start":7644.5,"end":7645.5,"text":"你們都開會"},{"start":7645.5,"end":7646.5,"text":"但沒結論"},{"start":7647.22,"end":7648.22,"text":"好"},{"start":7648.22,"end":7649.22,"text":"所以我不要再這樣子拖延"},{"start":7649.22,"end":7650.22,"text":"我在科技業"},{"start":7650.22,"end":7651.22,"text":"我受不了這一種"},{"start":7653.06,"end":7654.06,"text":"一個月"},{"start":7654.11,"end":7656.11,"text":"好我們用這個保留條文"},{"start":7656.11,"end":7657.11,"text":"送出協商"},{"start":7657.11,"end":7659.11,"text":"一個月指的是什麼"},{"start":7659.11,"end":7660.11,"text":"一個月"},{"start":7660.86,"end":7661.86,"text":"協商很痛奇"},{"start":7661.86,"end":7662.86,"text":"我現在是保留條文"},{"start":7662.86,"end":7663.86,"text":"OK保留條文"},{"start":7663.86,"end":7665.86,"text":"那我剛才講的就是說"},{"start":7666.48,"end":7668.48,"text":"我會針對裡面"},{"start":7668.48,"end":7671.48,"text":"可能天然災害受影響的這些種類"},{"start":7671.48,"end":7673.48,"text":"我把它更明確的講"},{"start":7673.48,"end":7675.48,"text":"但是不是在以後的執行面"},{"start":7675.48,"end":7677.48,"text":"執行面是另外一件事情"},{"start":7677.48,"end":7678.48,"text":"就是針對法裡面"},{"start":7678.48,"end":7680.48,"text":"該怎麼樣去放的部分"},{"start":7680.48,"end":7683.48,"text":"我可以提出一個內容"},{"start":7688.53,"end":7690.53,"text":"所以我覺得這60條"},{"start":7690.53,"end":7692.53,"text":"我們這樣訂的沒有問題"},{"start":7692.53,"end":7693.53,"text":"應該是可以過的"},{"start":7693.53,"end":7695.53,"text":"它只是在它的執法"},{"start":7695.53,"end":7697.53,"text":"它的執行辦法裡面去訂定"},{"start":7697.53,"end":7698.53,"text":"該怎麼去執行而已"},{"start":7699.84,"end":7700.84,"text":"這不影響啊"},{"start":7701.65,"end":7703.65,"text":"我們現在就先暫時休息"},{"start":7703.65,"end":7704.65,"text":"如果沒關係"},{"start":7704.65,"end":7706.65,"text":"因為剛剛還包含楊全委員"},{"start":7706.65,"end":7707.65,"text":"鄭天才委員的意見"},{"start":7707.65,"end":7710.65,"text":"還有天然災害防護的認定"},{"start":7710.65,"end":7712.65,"text":"所以我是認為是說"},{"start":7712.65,"end":7713.65,"text":"根據各位的意見"},{"start":7713.65,"end":7714.65,"text":"我們先休息一下好了"},{"start":7714.65,"end":7715.65,"text":"等一下再跟各位講"},{"start":7722.71,"end":7723.71,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7728.45,"end":7729.45,"text":"我的還沒過啊"},{"start":7729.45,"end":7730.45,"text":"我的還沒有過啊"},{"start":7730.45,"end":7731.45,"text":"怎麼過"},{"start":7732.27,"end":7733.27,"text":"我的它還沒有啊"},{"start":7734.08,"end":7735.08,"text":"好啦 就一個月啦"},{"start":7737.15,"end":7738.15,"text":"主席這個60條"},{"start":7738.15,"end":7739.15,"text":"有好幾個理由"},{"start":7739.15,"end":7741.15,"text":"可以讓我休息五分鐘上廁所"},{"start":7742.7,"end":7743.7,"text":"這個就是保留啊"},{"start":7743.7,"end":7745.7,"text":"不是 這每個委員的都保留嘛"},{"start":7745.7,"end":7746.7,"text":"不是我這一條而已啊"},{"start":7746.7,"end":7747.7,"text":"對啊"},{"start":7747.7,"end":7748.7,"text":"好啦 一起保留好了"},{"start":7748.7,"end":7749.7,"text":"一起保留啊"},{"start":7749.7,"end":7750.7,"text":"因為你知道它野生端娃"},{"start":7750.7,"end":7752.7,"text":"還有那個秋志偉招尾的啊"},{"start":7752.7,"end":7753.7,"text":"可是一個月後"},{"start":7753.7,"end":7755.7,"text":"它要有明確的定義出來"},{"start":7755.7,"end":7756.7,"text":"當然啊 不然我們就"},{"start":7756.7,"end":7757.7,"text":"我們都無法去執行"},{"start":7757.7,"end":7758.7,"text":"不要又告訴我們說"},{"start":7758.7,"end":7759.7,"text":"要用執法"},{"start":7760.62,"end":7761.62,"text":"對 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d":8866.63,"text":"那不是地主的時候"},{"start":8866.63,"end":8871.63,"text":"那他要去那個地上要去限期改正可能地主是反對的"},{"start":8871.63,"end":8874.63,"text":"那地主如果反對的話就由主管機關通知他"},{"start":8874.63,"end":8876.63,"text":"由他來負責改正"},{"start":8876.63,"end":8878.63,"text":"那這是我們第三項的修正"},{"start":8878.63,"end":8880.63,"text":"那最後一項的修正就是"},{"start":8880.63,"end":8885.63,"text":"以完工道路或設施之養護准用第一項及第二項之規定"},{"start":8885.63,"end":8887.63,"text":"因為我們相似變動了"},{"start":8887.63,"end":8890.63,"text":"所以這一項的相似再重新做修正"},{"start":8890.63,"end":8891.63,"text":"以上"},{"start":8894.07,"end":8895.07,"text":"這樣好不好"},{"start":8895.07,"end":8898.07,"text":"因為等一下休息再給我看一下好了"},{"start":8900.72,"end":8902.72,"text":"對啊"},{"start":8906.32,"end":8907.32,"text":"都沒有"},{"start":8908.01,"end":8909.01,"text":"同志是我們"},{"start":8920.93,"end":8922.93,"text":"第三項簡化就對了"},{"start":8924.89,"end":8928.89,"text":"第三項是我們配合配合這一次委員講的是"},{"start":8928.89,"end":8932.89,"text":"因為有不少是違規開發是沒有合法使用權的人"},{"start":8932.89,"end":8936.89,"text":"那我們再把第三項在實務上遇到的問題"},{"start":8936.89,"end":8938.89,"text":"把它做一個處理"},{"start":8949.05,"end":8950.05,"text":"嗯"},{"start":8950.21,"end":8954.21,"text":"你這個跟你的這個行政部門所提出"},{"start":8954.21,"end":8957.21,"text":"跟主題人差別"},{"start":8957.21,"end":8958.21,"text":"第一個是日"},{"start":8958.97,"end":8959.97,"text":"跟次"},{"start":8959.97,"end":8961.97,"text":"你們現在是認為要次"},{"start":8961.97,"end":8963.97,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":8963.97,"end":8965.97,"text":"第二個就在於"},{"start":8965.97,"end":8968.97,"text":"這個違規行為人停工"},{"start":8968.97,"end":8971.97,"text":"並得通知其期限改正"},{"start":8971.97,"end":8975.97,"text":"你是增加讓他改善的時間"},{"start":8975.97,"end":8977.97,"text":"那你這個並期"},{"start":8977.97,"end":8980.97,"text":"並得通知其期限改正"},{"start":8980.97,"end":8981.97,"text":"限期改正"},{"start":8981.97,"end":8982.97,"text":"限期改正"},{"start":8982.97,"end":8983.97,"text":"那你的限期"},{"start":8985.03,"end":8986.03,"text":"委員您要知道"},{"start":8986.03,"end":8989.03,"text":"以前立法體例上曾經出現一個問題"},{"start":8989.03,"end":8990.03,"text":"我們很困擾的問題"},{"start":8990.03,"end":8993.03,"text":"準期請問的是你的限期"},{"start":8993.03,"end":8994.03,"text":"你的限期"},{"start":8994.03,"end":8996.03,"text":"如果沒有寫時間"},{"start":8996.03,"end":8999.03,"text":"是不是依照他的case來決定"},{"start":8999.03,"end":9001.03,"text":"行政部門來決定"},{"start":9001.03,"end":9002.03,"text":"所以沒有固定"},{"start":9002.03,"end":9004.03,"text":"比如說我們很多的法律"},{"start":9004.03,"end":9007.03,"text":"就是一個月內兩個禮拜內一個禮拜內"},{"start":9007.03,"end":9009.03,"text":"要依實際的狀況"},{"start":9009.03,"end":9011.03,"text":"所以你的是要依你的case"},{"start":9011.03,"end":9012.03,"text":"依照你的case"},{"start":9012.03,"end":9014.03,"text":"是授權給行政部門"},{"start":9014.03,"end":9015.03,"text":"你的意思是不是這樣子"},{"start":9015.03,"end":9016.03,"text":"委員我要跟您說"},{"start":9016.03,"end":9018.03,"text":"我們當初第一項跟第二項"},{"start":9018.03,"end":9020.03,"text":"常受外面的困擾的是"},{"start":9020.03,"end":9022.03,"text":"第一項就是"},{"start":9022.03,"end":9023.03,"text":"他有你水保計畫"},{"start":9023.03,"end":9025.03,"text":"只是沒有一合套水保計畫"},{"start":9025.03,"end":9027.03,"text":"但第一項委員您要看一下"},{"start":9027.03,"end":9030.03,"text":"他上面有時候也要有限期改正"},{"start":9030.03,"end":9032.03,"text":"第一項有限期改正"},{"start":9032.03,"end":9034.03,"text":"就是因為你如果"},{"start":9034.03,"end":9035.03,"text":"你們要依照原先核定去挖"},{"start":9035.03,"end":9037.03,"text":"然後我們就請你限期改正"},{"start":9037.03,"end":9039.03,"text":"那第二項您去看限期的條文"},{"start":9039.03,"end":9041.03,"text":"他沒有限期改正這個我自言"},{"start":9041.03,"end":9044.03,"text":"沒有擬具的人卻沒有限期改正"},{"start":9044.03,"end":9046.03,"text":"所以就造成外界很多人困擾說"},{"start":9046.03,"end":9048.03,"text":"以為好亂來的人就不用改正"},{"start":9048.03,"end":9049.03,"text":"是要的"},{"start":9049.03,"end":9051.03,"text":"所以我們這次把他寫得很清楚"},{"start":9051.03,"end":9054.03,"text":"說不論你是未依核定或未擬具"},{"start":9054.03,"end":9056.03,"text":"那個現地的狀況"},{"start":9056.03,"end":9058.03,"text":"你被你挖了亂七八糟的狀況"},{"start":9058.03,"end":9061.03,"text":"是必須要你把他改正回來的"},{"start":9061.03,"end":9064.03,"text":"所以我們最主要的問題就是限期改正"},{"start":9064.03,"end":9065.03,"text":"那剛剛委員您詢問的"},{"start":9065.03,"end":9067.03,"text":"因為開挖整地的狀態"},{"start":9067.03,"end":9068.03,"text":"你看每個人的狀況"},{"start":9068.03,"end":9070.03,"text":"有很嚴重的也有很輕微的"},{"start":9070.03,"end":9072.03,"text":"改正的方式都有不同"},{"start":9072.03,"end":9075.03,"text":"所以他都必須符合水土保鮮技術規範"},{"start":9075.03,"end":9077.03,"text":"的要求去做改正"},{"start":9077.03,"end":9079.03,"text":"所以主管機關在下的時候"},{"start":9079.03,"end":9081.03,"text":"他必須要合情合理"},{"start":9081.03,"end":9083.03,"text":"去看照規範的"},{"start":9083.03,"end":9085.03,"text":"水土保鮮技術規範"},{"start":9085.03,"end":9088.03,"text":"有地方政府一失誤狀況去做改善"},{"start":9090.48,"end":9091.48,"text":"是"},{"start":9091.74,"end":9094.74,"text":"也的確目前在執行的過程當中"},{"start":9094.74,"end":9097.74,"text":"都有讓這個"},{"start":9098.52,"end":9100.52,"text":"去限期改善"},{"start":9101.51,"end":9102.51,"text":"那現在你說"},{"start":9102.51,"end":9104.51,"text":"因為在當地的縣市政府"},{"start":9104.51,"end":9106.51,"text":"他要去執行的時候"},{"start":9106.51,"end":9108.51,"text":"因為我經常說我們訂的法"},{"start":9108.51,"end":9109.51,"text":"是要讓當地的縣市政府"},{"start":9109.51,"end":9111.51,"text":"他可以執行的了"},{"start":9111.51,"end":9114.51,"text":"而且他有一個依據"},{"start":9114.51,"end":9117.51,"text":"所以這個依據各縣市政府"},{"start":9117.51,"end":9120.51,"text":"22個縣市政府他們的依據"},{"start":9120.51,"end":9124.51,"text":"是不是有一個基本的一個"},{"start":9124.68,"end":9125.68,"text":"一個規範"},{"start":9127.45,"end":9129.45,"text":"就是跟委員報告"},{"start":9129.45,"end":9131.45,"text":"就是依照他的樣態"},{"start":9131.45,"end":9134.45,"text":"會依照我們的技術規範的"},{"start":9134.45,"end":9136.45,"text":"作業的一般的期程"},{"start":9136.45,"end":9138.45,"text":"去限定他的期間"},{"start":9138.45,"end":9140.45,"text":"他有一個標準"},{"start":9140.45,"end":9142.45,"text":"所以說這個樣態太多"},{"start":9142.45,"end":9145.45,"text":"沒有辦法在這裡做這樣的規範"},{"start":9145.45,"end":9147.45,"text":"就是說不管你的樣態是怎麼樣"},{"start":9147.45,"end":9149.45,"text":"但是我們目前為止"},{"start":9149.45,"end":9151.45,"text":"還是有一個基本的標準"},{"start":9151.45,"end":9154.45,"text":"對 技術規範裡面的作業方式"},{"start":9167.43,"end":9168.43,"text":"我再問一下"},{"start":9168.43,"end":9170.43,"text":"所以你們把你們的第三項"},{"start":9170.43,"end":9172.43,"text":"前面那些公有或私人三破地"},{"start":9172.43,"end":9173.43,"text":"國公有鄰區"},{"start":9173.43,"end":9174.43,"text":"他人私有鄰區"},{"start":9174.43,"end":9176.43,"text":"那些全部都"},{"start":9177.84,"end":9179.84,"text":"我要跟委員說"},{"start":9179.84,"end":9181.84,"text":"為擬具水保計畫"},{"start":9181.84,"end":9182.84,"text":"不管你背後"},{"start":9182.84,"end":9184.84,"text":"到底有沒有合法使用權"},{"start":9184.84,"end":9186.84,"text":"就說你到底是地主"},{"start":9186.84,"end":9187.84,"text":"還是不是地主"},{"start":9187.84,"end":9188.84,"text":"是侵佔別人土地來"},{"start":9188.84,"end":9190.84,"text":"都會適用第二項"},{"start":9190.84,"end":9192.84,"text":"因為你沒有經過主管機關核定"},{"start":9192.84,"end":9195.84,"text":"所以在裡面的辦法"},{"start":9195.84,"end":9197.84,"text":"就是把它就是把我們這個"},{"start":9197.84,"end":9198.84,"text":"我們就認定是第二項的情況"},{"start":9198.84,"end":9200.84,"text":"因為你沒有擬具水保機關"},{"start":9200.84,"end":9201.84,"text":"送主管機關核定"},{"start":9201.84,"end":9202.84,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9202.84,"end":9203.84,"text":"不管你什麼"},{"start":9203.84,"end":9205.84,"text":"不管你是侵佔別人"},{"start":9205.84,"end":9206.84,"text":"你有沒有合法使用權"},{"start":9206.84,"end":9208.84,"text":"你外觀上就是沒有擬水保計畫"},{"start":9208.84,"end":9209.84,"text":"送主管機關核定"},{"start":9209.84,"end":9212.84,"text":"所以他會被第二項涵蓋進來了"},{"start":9215.25,"end":9219.25,"text":"那如果你現在找不到違規行為人的話"},{"start":9219.25,"end":9220.25,"text":"會怎麼辦"},{"start":9220.25,"end":9221.25,"text":"第三項有講"},{"start":9221.25,"end":9222.25,"text":"不是"},{"start":9222.25,"end":9223.25,"text":"找不到違規行為人的話"},{"start":9223.25,"end":9224.25,"text":"就會通知地主"},{"start":9229.1,"end":9231.1,"text":"由地主來處理"},{"start":9232.95,"end":9234.95,"text":"可是你的第三項"},{"start":9234.95,"end":9235.95,"text":"感覺不是這樣寫"},{"start":9235.95,"end":9238.95,"text":"這個第一這個也是我一併討論"},{"start":9238.95,"end":9240.95,"text":"因為這個最後你說使用人"},{"start":9240.95,"end":9242.95,"text":"或所有權人同意"},{"start":9242.95,"end":9243.95,"text":"那你的主管機關單位"},{"start":9243.95,"end":9245.95,"text":"應通知經營人"},{"start":9245.95,"end":9248.95,"text":"使用人或所有權人限期改善"},{"start":9248.95,"end":9249.95,"text":"我們現在在做的"},{"start":9249.95,"end":9252.95,"text":"就譬如我給你做你這堆"},{"start":9252.95,"end":9254.95,"text":"那一般都是經營者"},{"start":9254.95,"end":9256.95,"text":"他第一順位要負責"},{"start":9256.95,"end":9257.95,"text":"是不是"},{"start":9257.95,"end":9259.95,"text":"那地主是到最後"},{"start":9259.95,"end":9260.95,"text":"對"},{"start":9260.95,"end":9262.95,"text":"一落跑也找不到了"},{"start":9262.95,"end":9263.95,"text":"地主要負全責"},{"start":9263.95,"end":9264.95,"text":"是不是"},{"start":9264.95,"end":9266.95,"text":"那你直接把它同步"},{"start":9266.95,"end":9268.95,"text":"同步通知的時候"},{"start":9268.95,"end":9270.95,"text":"會不會讓人家以為"},{"start":9270.95,"end":9272.95,"text":"就是地主的這個"},{"start":9273.7,"end":9275.7,"text":"那這三個"},{"start":9275.7,"end":9277.7,"text":"有沒有那個數位問題"},{"start":9277.7,"end":9278.7,"text":"你現在在執行的"},{"start":9278.7,"end":9280.7,"text":"有數位問題嗎"},{"start":9280.7,"end":9282.7,"text":"地主是在最後嗎"},{"start":9282.7,"end":9283.7,"text":"我跟委員講"},{"start":9283.7,"end":9285.7,"text":"你剛剛講的是成株人"},{"start":9285.7,"end":9287.7,"text":"成株人違規"},{"start":9287.7,"end":9289.7,"text":"成株人是有合法使用權人"},{"start":9289.7,"end":9290.7,"text":"因為他有成株權"},{"start":9290.7,"end":9291.7,"text":"他在另外的土地"},{"start":9291.7,"end":9292.7,"text":"他就不是第三項"},{"start":9292.7,"end":9293.7,"text":"無合法使用權"},{"start":9293.7,"end":9294.7,"text":"我們真的是在講"},{"start":9294.7,"end":9297.7,"text":"你完全沒有任何使用權的部分"},{"start":9297.7,"end":9298.7,"text":"所以成株人跟地主"},{"start":9298.7,"end":9299.7,"text":"成株人去開發"},{"start":9299.7,"end":9300.7,"text":"他沒有擬具"},{"start":9300.7,"end":9301.7,"text":"我會罰成株人"},{"start":9302.41,"end":9303.41,"text":"我會罰成株人"},{"start":9303.41,"end":9305.41,"text":"那第三項是無合法使用權"},{"start":9305.41,"end":9306.41,"text":"是說你任何權利都沒有"},{"start":9306.41,"end":9308.41,"text":"你去侵占別人土地"},{"start":9308.41,"end":9310.41,"text":"就如剛剛委員之前提到"},{"start":9310.41,"end":9311.41,"text":"你沒有經過統一"},{"start":9311.41,"end":9313.41,"text":"擅自去開發的那種人"},{"start":9313.41,"end":9317.41,"text":"你就是去侵占人家土地的這種人"},{"start":9317.41,"end":9318.41,"text":"所以這個是在講"},{"start":9318.41,"end":9319.41,"text":"第三項這種人"},{"start":9319.41,"end":9321.41,"text":"那如果地主跟成株戶的問題"},{"start":9321.41,"end":9323.41,"text":"是他們之間的問題"},{"start":9323.41,"end":9324.41,"text":"誰挖我就找誰"},{"start":9326.08,"end":9327.08,"text":"他會是在第二項"},{"start":9328.97,"end":9330.97,"text":"最後找不到還是地主要付全權"},{"start":9330.97,"end":9331.97,"text":"所以的確委員剛剛有講的"},{"start":9331.97,"end":9333.97,"text":"完全找不到違規行為人"},{"start":9333.97,"end":9335.97,"text":"那我也贊同委員"},{"start":9335.97,"end":9337.97,"text":"如果這個部分也要處理的話"},{"start":9337.97,"end":9339.97,"text":"我們可能就是說"},{"start":9339.97,"end":9341.97,"text":"那個無法獲取"},{"start":9341.97,"end":9343.97,"text":"我們前面前項違規行為人"},{"start":9343.97,"end":9344.97,"text":"無合法使用權者"},{"start":9344.97,"end":9346.97,"text":"與辦理刑期改正事項前"},{"start":9346.97,"end":9348.97,"text":"無法取得經營人使用人同意"},{"start":9348.97,"end":9349.97,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":9349.97,"end":9353.97,"text":"或無法尋得違規行為人時"},{"start":9353.97,"end":9354.97,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":9354.97,"end":9355.97,"text":"主管通知"},{"start":9355.97,"end":9357.97,"text":"主管就歡迎通知經營人使用人"},{"start":9357.97,"end":9359.97,"text":"然後去改善"},{"start":9361.35,"end":9362.35,"text":"因為當時我們立這個"},{"start":9362.35,"end":9364.35,"text":"在後面立這個法律就是說"},{"start":9364.35,"end":9365.35,"text":"怕這個違規行為人"},{"start":9365.35,"end":9366.35,"text":"你就找不到嘛"},{"start":9366.35,"end":9368.35,"text":"因為地主也不知道啊"},{"start":9368.35,"end":9369.35,"text":"他也不是成株都不知道"},{"start":9369.35,"end":9371.35,"text":"找不到的時候"},{"start":9371.35,"end":9372.35,"text":"我才會要求是"},{"start":9372.35,"end":9375.35,"text":"地方的主管機關是代為整副嘛"},{"start":9375.35,"end":9378.35,"text":"然後再找行為人負擔啊"},{"start":9378.35,"end":9379.35,"text":"因為找不到行為人"},{"start":9379.35,"end":9381.35,"text":"你怎麼找他"},{"start":9381.35,"end":9382.35,"text":"但是你就這樣割著啊"},{"start":9382.35,"end":9386.35,"text":"因為違規行為人就是非法的人嘛"},{"start":9386.35,"end":9388.35,"text":"那他現在就倒在你的山坡地"},{"start":9388.35,"end":9389.35,"text":"也沒有同意什麼都沒有"},{"start":9389.35,"end":9390.35,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9390.35,"end":9394.35,"text":"那現在如果他這邊量到造成風險危害"},{"start":9394.35,"end":9398.35,"text":"所以我才說地方機關主管現在負起責任"},{"start":9398.35,"end":9400.35,"text":"那不然你這個風險怎麼辦"},{"start":9401.31,"end":9403.31,"text":"小心"},{"start":9402.34,"end":9404.34,"text":"這個法治單位"},{"start":9404.34,"end":9407.34,"text":"其實剛剛委員點出了你們一個部分"},{"start":9407.34,"end":9409.34,"text":"就是你們的思考"},{"start":9409.34,"end":9412.34,"text":"都是站在有你具水保計畫的"},{"start":9412.34,"end":9414.34,"text":"那他的水保計畫怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9414.34,"end":9416.34,"text":"那為你具水保計畫的"},{"start":9416.34,"end":9417.34,"text":"那怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9417.34,"end":9419.34,"text":"然後呢為你具水保計畫的那些行為人"},{"start":9419.34,"end":9422.34,"text":"你沒辦法取得同意"},{"start":9422.34,"end":9424.34,"text":"那就不能你具水保計畫"},{"start":9424.34,"end":9426.34,"text":"所以就怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9426.34,"end":9427.34,"text":"好那跑出一個項目"},{"start":9427.34,"end":9428.34,"text":"就是楊委員所說的"},{"start":9428.34,"end":9430.34,"text":"那找不到違規行為人"},{"start":9430.34,"end":9431.34,"text":"也是目前主席關切的"},{"start":9431.34,"end":9432.34,"text":"那該怎麼處理"},{"start":9432.34,"end":9434.34,"text":"那我是同意也是認同說"},{"start":9434.34,"end":9435.34,"text":"如果找不到違規行為人"},{"start":9435.34,"end":9437.34,"text":"當然是要由經營人使用人"},{"start":9437.34,"end":9439.34,"text":"或所有權人限期改善"},{"start":9439.34,"end":9441.34,"text":"因為這些人一定找得到"},{"start":9441.34,"end":9443.34,"text":"因為經營人不可能找不到"},{"start":9443.34,"end":9444.34,"text":"使用人也不能找不到"},{"start":9444.34,"end":9447.34,"text":"這些都找不到就是所有權人"},{"start":9447.34,"end":9450.34,"text":"所有權人一定是可以看得到找得到的"},{"start":9450.34,"end":9454.34,"text":"那這些人應該優先的負責去改正"},{"start":9454.34,"end":9458.34,"text":"那麼至於說連所有權人都不願意改正"},{"start":9458.34,"end":9459.34,"text":"這個就事情大了"},{"start":9459.34,"end":9462.34,"text":"這種情況之下那個土地要怎麼處理"},{"start":9462.34,"end":9463.34,"text":"這個到時候我們關心"},{"start":9463.34,"end":9465.34,"text":"所有權人他應該負責"},{"start":9465.34,"end":9466.34,"text":"如果找不到他"},{"start":9466.34,"end":9469.34,"text":"我說如果所有權人無法改正的時候"},{"start":9469.98,"end":9470.98,"text":"你們要說明是這一個"},{"start":9470.98,"end":9473.98,"text":"當所有權人他也無力改正的時候"},{"start":9473.98,"end":9475.98,"text":"那行政機關如何"},{"start":9475.98,"end":9478.98,"text":"我們就會由行政機關先代為執行"},{"start":9478.98,"end":9479.98,"text":"再慢慢處理"},{"start":9479.98,"end":9480.98,"text":"對嘛"},{"start":9480.98,"end":9483.98,"text":"這個就是我剛剛也一直在講的"},{"start":9483.98,"end":9486.98,"text":"因為一般承租的就是最後找地主"},{"start":9486.98,"end":9488.98,"text":"那你沒有這個的時候"},{"start":9488.98,"end":9490.98,"text":"那當然很多人人頭"},{"start":9490.98,"end":9492.98,"text":"你一定他沒有辦法去改善"},{"start":9492.98,"end":9494.98,"text":"那是誰"},{"start":9494.98,"end":9495.98,"text":"那最後是政府"},{"start":9495.98,"end":9498.98,"text":"你講的就對了"},{"start":9498.98,"end":9500.98,"text":"如果是沒有人的時候"},{"start":9500.98,"end":9502.98,"text":"政府當然就是"},{"start":9502.98,"end":9506.98,"text":"代為先改善然後再事後再去追捕"},{"start":9506.98,"end":9508.98,"text":"要不然你就爛在那裡"},{"start":9508.98,"end":9511.98,"text":"那個等一下主席就是說"},{"start":9511.98,"end":9514.98,"text":"其實一定找得到所有權人"},{"start":9514.98,"end":9516.98,"text":"只是所有權人有沒有能力改正"},{"start":9516.98,"end":9519.98,"text":"那如果所有權人無能力改正"},{"start":9519.98,"end":9521.98,"text":"那當然國家就會介入"},{"start":9521.98,"end":9524.98,"text":"那國家介入去代為執行的時候"},{"start":9524.98,"end":9526.98,"text":"後續再跟所有權人求償"},{"start":9526.98,"end":9528.98,"text":"那這個部分是規定在哪裡"},{"start":9528.98,"end":9530.98,"text":"因為現在主席的問題是"},{"start":9530.98,"end":9532.98,"text":"如果我這裡不寫"},{"start":9532.98,"end":9534.98,"text":"那你後面最後這一段國家執行的時候"},{"start":9534.98,"end":9535.98,"text":"是依哪些法"},{"start":9535.98,"end":9538.98,"text":"其實我也因為我在地方租管機關也待過"},{"start":9538.98,"end":9541.98,"text":"其實我們就會跟所有權人"},{"start":9541.98,"end":9543.98,"text":"先代為執行之後"},{"start":9543.98,"end":9544.98,"text":"就讓他求償"},{"start":9544.98,"end":9546.98,"text":"那求償他如果拿不出來"},{"start":9546.98,"end":9547.98,"text":"他的土地會被拍賣"},{"start":9547.98,"end":9548.98,"text":"大概是這樣"},{"start":9548.98,"end":9551.98,"text":"那這個你們把這個法令一去說明一下"},{"start":9551.98,"end":9552.98,"text":"這個請你們說明一下"},{"start":9552.98,"end":9554.98,"text":"因為在隨法法第24條裡面有一些規範"},{"start":9556.16,"end":9558.16,"text":"跟委員講說待履行的部分"},{"start":9558.16,"end":9562.16,"text":"我們在隨法法24條就有做規定"},{"start":9562.16,"end":9564.16,"text":"那行政執行法也可以做處理"},{"start":9564.16,"end":9568.16,"text":"我給你們看一下24條的部分的最後一項"},{"start":9568.16,"end":9570.16,"text":"他的第三項"},{"start":9570.16,"end":9572.16,"text":"有前二條情形之一者"},{"start":9572.16,"end":9573.16,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":9573.16,"end":9574.16,"text":"經縣級改正、階級不改正"},{"start":9574.16,"end":9577.16,"text":"或實施人不符合水土保持技術規範者"},{"start":9577.16,"end":9580.16,"text":"應由主管機關、會同各該目的式委員機關"},{"start":9580.16,"end":9581.16,"text":"待為履行"},{"start":9581.16,"end":9584.16,"text":"並向隨法義務人徵收費用"},{"start":9584.16,"end":9585.16,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":9585.16,"end":9588.16,"text":"所以24條的最後一項就有規定"},{"start":9588.16,"end":9592.16,"text":"那這一條可能對幾乎所有狀況就可以處理"},{"start":9592.16,"end":9596.16,"text":"如果沒有行政執行法也有一個規定"},{"start":9596.16,"end":9598.16,"text":"也是一樣有待履行的義務"},{"start":9598.16,"end":9599.16,"text":"待履行的條文"},{"start":9599.16,"end":9600.16,"text":"那但是這一天"},{"start":9600.16,"end":9602.16,"text":"像我的確贊同委員剛剛的說法"},{"start":9602.16,"end":9604.16,"text":"就是完全找不到行為人的時候"},{"start":9604.16,"end":9606.16,"text":"我們就要通知地主"},{"start":9606.16,"end":9608.16,"text":"你要負起這個責任來"},{"start":9608.16,"end":9610.16,"text":"所以我們的第三項是不是在"},{"start":9610.16,"end":9612.16,"text":"無法取得機遇人、使用人或所有權人同意"},{"start":9612.16,"end":9614.16,"text":"後面我們再往下加"},{"start":9614.16,"end":9616.16,"text":"我們在鬥點之後寫說"},{"start":9616.16,"end":9620.16,"text":"或無法尋得那個違規行為人時"},{"start":9620.16,"end":9625.16,"text":"那鬥點主管機關應通知經營人、使用人或所有人"},{"start":9625.16,"end":9626.16,"text":"獻起改正"},{"start":9626.16,"end":9628.16,"text":"那這樣就完結委員所有的意見"},{"start":9628.16,"end":9630.16,"text":"把它融合起來了"},{"start":9632.82,"end":9637.82,"text":"或無法尋得那個違規行為人時"},{"start":9637.82,"end":9640.82,"text":"那主管機關應通知"},{"start":9640.82,"end":9644.82,"text":"經營人、使用人或所有權人獻起改正"},{"start":9645.6,"end":9647.6,"text":"那至於委員剛剛你講說"},{"start":9647.6,"end":9649.6,"text":"如果後面待履行的部分"},{"start":9649.6,"end":9651.6,"text":"已經有條文可以出力了"},{"start":9653.34,"end":9655.34,"text":"你要把文字寫出來"},{"start":9655.34,"end":9657.34,"text":"因為他就剛剛中交部或其他委員"},{"start":9657.34,"end":9659.34,"text":"扛勝的就是說"},{"start":9659.34,"end":9661.34,"text":"沒有那些待履權還是無能嘛"},{"start":9661.34,"end":9663.34,"text":"沒有能力的時候"},{"start":9663.34,"end":9665.34,"text":"你要再寫在這邊說"},{"start":9665.34,"end":9667.34,"text":"政府就用待委員這個啊"},{"start":9667.34,"end":9669.34,"text":"那你才會接到24啊"},{"start":9669.34,"end":9671.34,"text":"不是不是,他一定是先通知地主"},{"start":9671.34,"end":9673.34,"text":"因為地主你是那塊地的責任"},{"start":9673.34,"end":9675.34,"text":"就好像我們建築法規或費心法一樣"},{"start":9675.34,"end":9677.34,"text":"我找不到任何行為人"},{"start":9677.34,"end":9679.34,"text":"我還是會先找地主"},{"start":9679.34,"end":9681.34,"text":"那地主如果無法處理的話"},{"start":9681.34,"end":9683.34,"text":"那我會做待履行"},{"start":9683.34,"end":9685.34,"text":"那待履行剛剛跟委員講"},{"start":9685.34,"end":9687.34,"text":"隨法法24條已經有規定"},{"start":9687.34,"end":9689.34,"text":"還有行政執行法也有規定"},{"start":9688.98,"end":9690.98,"text":"那我們這邊只是告訴說"},{"start":9690.98,"end":9692.98,"text":"義務人我會找誰"},{"start":9693.23,"end":9695.23,"text":"那我們剛剛講第二項"},{"start":9695.23,"end":9697.23,"text":"我一定先找行為人嘛"},{"start":9697.23,"end":9699.23,"text":"違規行為人先找"},{"start":9699.23,"end":9701.23,"text":"因為你沒有報住管教我先找行為人"},{"start":9701.23,"end":9703.23,"text":"那行為人如果你沒辦法"},{"start":9703.23,"end":9705.23,"text":"地主如果沒辦法同意"},{"start":9705.23,"end":9707.23,"text":"那你就回到地主"},{"start":9707.23,"end":9709.23,"text":"那還有一種就是你找不到行為人"},{"start":9709.23,"end":9711.23,"text":"那也是由地主來處理"},{"start":9711.23,"end":9713.23,"text":"但地主不是馬上罰他"},{"start":9713.23,"end":9715.23,"text":"因為對地主太苛刻"},{"start":9715.23,"end":9717.23,"text":"所以一定先通知地主"},{"start":9717.23,"end":9719.23,"text":"請你處理,你不處理才會啟動後面的手段"},{"start":9718.83,"end":9720.83,"text":"修正了再"},{"start":9720.83,"end":9722.83,"text":"好,那24條的第三項就有了"},{"start":9722.83,"end":9724.83,"text":"因為我們這是23條"},{"start":9724.83,"end":9726.83,"text":"那24條第三項"},{"start":9726.83,"end":9728.83,"text":"他寫有前二條之情形之一者"},{"start":9728.83,"end":9730.83,"text":"就已經有了"},{"start":9736.94,"end":9738.94,"text":"我還是小小抱怨一下"},{"start":9738.94,"end":9740.94,"text":"就是說這已經是很久很久很久了"},{"start":9740.94,"end":9742.94,"text":"然後當時問你們也都"},{"start":9742.94,"end":9744.94,"text":"毫無意義"},{"start":9744.94,"end":9746.94,"text":"然後覺得可以遵照委員的狀況來辦理"},{"start":9746.94,"end":9748.94,"text":"然後"},{"start":9751.06,"end":9753.06,"text":"要交考卷了"},{"start":9753.06,"end":9755.06,"text":"才今天再加這個答題內容"},{"start":9759.21,"end":9761.21,"text":"好"},{"start":9760.95,"end":9762.95,"text":"我殺小寶奶"},{"start":9764.55,"end":9766.55,"text":"放學後留下來操作"},{"start":9770.13,"end":9772.13,"text":"前向違規行為人"},{"start":9774.57,"end":9776.57,"text":"不合法,白馬"},{"start":9800.85,"end":9802.85,"text":"我們這個再往上看一下"},{"start":9802.85,"end":9804.85,"text":"我整個挑了"},{"start":9805.54,"end":9807.54,"text":"用整夜模式"},{"start":9825.48,"end":9827.48,"text":"因為按日變按次就同意"},{"start":9827.48,"end":9829.48,"text":"因為配合圖裁法"},{"start":9829.48,"end":9831.48,"text":"維持行政法一致"},{"start":9831.48,"end":9833.48,"text":"因為修正動議也有"},{"start":9834.63,"end":9836.63,"text":"好"},{"start":9836.62,"end":9838.62,"text":"再往下"},{"start":9857.19,"end":9859.19,"text":"好"},{"start":9858.44,"end":9860.44,"text":"再往下"},{"start":9860.44,"end":9862.44,"text":"前向違規行為人"},{"start":9863.97,"end":9865.97,"text":"法事要求,犯的期限改正"},{"start":9865.97,"end":9867.97,"text":"我發去的紀念寫好說"},{"start":9867.97,"end":9869.97,"text":"我全然不想再做了"},{"start":9888.75,"end":9890.75,"text":"我都說了,我全然不想再做了"},{"start":9892.39,"end":9894.39,"text":"好"},{"start":9895.28,"end":9897.28,"text":"好,其他委員"},{"start":9897.28,"end":9899.28,"text":"再看一下"},{"start":9913.1,"end":9915.1,"text":"這實在是,我們還要再想想"},{"start":9916.61,"end":9918.61,"text":"看一下"},{"start":9930.55,"end":9932.55,"text":"其實,這一條條文"},{"start":9932.55,"end":9934.55,"text":"也就是說,雖然我們"},{"start":9934.55,"end":9936.55,"text":"在條文裡頭,已經"},{"start":9936.55,"end":9938.55,"text":"剛剛那個說明的"},{"start":9938.55,"end":9940.55,"text":"在條文裡頭"},{"start":9940.55,"end":9942.55,"text":"就夯不讓當,不管是"},{"start":9942.55,"end":9944.55,"text":"有經營權,沒有經營權的"},{"start":9944.55,"end":9946.55,"text":"這一些,他都可以"},{"start":9946.55,"end":9948.55,"text":"代執行,你的說法是如此"},{"start":9948.55,"end":9950.55,"text":"但是現在就是"},{"start":9950.55,"end":9952.55,"text":"為什麼會提出這個"},{"start":9952.55,"end":9954.55,"text":"也就是說,目前雖然"},{"start":9954.55,"end":9956.55,"text":"有,但是他的"},{"start":9956.55,"end":9958.55,"text":"層面,執行起來"},{"start":9958.55,"end":9960.55,"text":"不完整"},{"start":9959.88,"end":9961.88,"text":"並不完整"},{"start":9961.88,"end":9963.88,"text":"所以才會提出這樣子"},{"start":9963.88,"end":9965.88,"text":"我個人認為說,應該行政部門"},{"start":9965.88,"end":9967.88,"text":"你們要提出說"},{"start":9967.88,"end":9969.88,"text":"那我現在已經有這個"},{"start":9970.61,"end":9972.61,"text":"執行細則,已經有這個法條"},{"start":9972.61,"end":9974.61,"text":"但是為什麼"},{"start":9974.61,"end":9976.61,"text":"社會現象就沒有辦法解決"},{"start":9977.7,"end":9979.7,"text":"你們應該是針對這個來說明"},{"start":9979.7,"end":9981.7,"text":"而不是說"},{"start":9981.7,"end":9983.7,"text":"現在第23條"},{"start":9983.7,"end":9985.7,"text":"裡頭,你修正這樣"},{"start":9985.7,"end":9987.7,"text":"文字很漂亮"},{"start":9987.7,"end":9989.7,"text":"但是問題是說"},{"start":9989.7,"end":9991.7,"text":"你的執行會不會跟原先的"},{"start":9991.7,"end":9993.7,"text":"已經有,那一條擺在那裡"},{"start":9993.7,"end":9995.7,"text":"你依照這一條"},{"start":9995.7,"end":9997.7,"text":"但是他不依照這一條去執行"},{"start":9997.7,"end":9999.7,"text":"問題是這個"},{"start":9999.75,"end":10001.75,"text":"那你要怎麼去解決這個問題才是"},{"start":10004.26,"end":10006.26,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":10006.26,"end":10008.26,"text":"當初您所關心的就是"},{"start":10008.26,"end":10010.26,"text":"我們在第二項裡面就講"},{"start":10010.26,"end":10012.26,"text":"因為當初並沒有限期改正"},{"start":10012.26,"end":10014.26,"text":"就是說你自己違法"},{"start":10014.26,"end":10016.26,"text":"沒有相關的計畫的時候"},{"start":10016.26,"end":10018.26,"text":"有限期改正第一項"},{"start":10018.26,"end":10020.26,"text":"但第二項就是沒有的時候"},{"start":10020.26,"end":10022.26,"text":"並沒有通知限期改正"},{"start":10022.26,"end":10024.26,"text":"所以他可以無限的"},{"start":10024.26,"end":10026.26,"text":"拖破無限的怎麼樣"},{"start":10026.26,"end":10028.26,"text":"所以我們就為了解決這個問題"},{"start":10028.26,"end":10030.26,"text":"特別加了限期改正"},{"start":10030.26,"end":10032.26,"text":"這樣的話就能夠讓"},{"start":10031.21,"end":10033.21,"text":"不管是原來"},{"start":10033.21,"end":10035.21,"text":"不依照隨保法的部分"},{"start":10035.21,"end":10037.21,"text":"跟完全沒有提隨保法的部分"},{"start":10037.21,"end":10039.21,"text":"都"},{"start":10038.68,"end":10040.68,"text":"都有處理的方式"},{"start":10040.68,"end":10042.68,"text":"然後第三條就是處理"},{"start":10041.96,"end":10043.96,"text":"要改正的時候怎麼辦"},{"start":10043.96,"end":10045.96,"text":"就是他要地主同意"},{"start":10045.96,"end":10047.96,"text":"地主如果不同意的時候"},{"start":10047.96,"end":10049.96,"text":"或者是找不到這些違規行為的人的時候"},{"start":10049.96,"end":10051.96,"text":"我們怎麼辦"},{"start":10051.96,"end":10053.96,"text":"都沒辦法處理的時候才會落到24條"},{"start":10053.96,"end":10055.96,"text":"由主管機關代為覺醒"},{"start":10055.96,"end":10057.96,"text":"代為處理"},{"start":10057.96,"end":10059.96,"text":"然後後續才去做相關的追查"},{"start":10063.98,"end":10065.98,"text":"就是說精神上有符合"},{"start":10065.98,"end":10069.98,"text":"就是我當時要立法的一個目的要求"},{"start":10069.98,"end":10073.98,"text":"我大致上看過文字以及後續"},{"start":10073.98,"end":10075.98,"text":"我比較關心是代為旅行"},{"start":10075.98,"end":10077.98,"text":"另外"},{"start":10077.98,"end":10079.98,"text":"在這一條如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":10079.98,"end":10081.98,"text":"等一下的我的32條"},{"start":10081.98,"end":10083.98,"text":"就是等一下我們再討論"},{"start":10083.98,"end":10085.98,"text":"就是我還是希望有罰則"},{"start":10085.98,"end":10087.98,"text":"因為現在倒下去之後"},{"start":10087.98,"end":10089.98,"text":"就是找不到人"},{"start":10089.98,"end":10091.98,"text":"然後就落在那邊"},{"start":10091.98,"end":10093.98,"text":"然後就落在那邊就有風險"},{"start":10093.98,"end":10095.98,"text":"那我覺得這個我們政府機關"},{"start":10095.98,"end":10097.98,"text":"應該負起這個責任"},{"start":10097.98,"end":10099.98,"text":"那我覺得你們這樣寫"},{"start":10099.98,"end":10101.98,"text":"我OK啦我這樣看起來"},{"start":10101.98,"end":10103.98,"text":"是有達到精神好不好"},{"start":10105.52,"end":10107.52,"text":"好那我們就照這個修正通過"},{"start":10112.09,"end":10114.09,"text":"好接下來進行第32條"},{"start":10118.2,"end":10120.2,"text":"32條的部分我們是"},{"start":10120.2,"end":10122.2,"text":"支持委員提供罰金的上限"},{"start":10122.2,"end":10124.2,"text":"但是我們還是建議"},{"start":10124.2,"end":10126.2,"text":"維持罰金"},{"start":10126.2,"end":10128.2,"text":"就是不定下限"},{"start":10128.59,"end":10130.59,"text":"違規的樣態有非常多"},{"start":10130.59,"end":10132.59,"text":"那有小有大的部分"},{"start":10132.59,"end":10134.59,"text":"那如果說有定下限的時候"},{"start":10134.59,"end":10136.59,"text":"如果是比較輕微的違規的時候"},{"start":10136.59,"end":10140.59,"text":"那可能會造成比較多的一些問題"},{"start":10141.64,"end":10143.64,"text":"好"},{"start":10144.52,"end":10146.52,"text":"那上線就看尊重委員討論的一個"},{"start":10150.06,"end":10152.06,"text":"修正通過是"},{"start":10152.06,"end":10154.06,"text":"上限是2500萬"},{"start":10154.06,"end":10156.06,"text":"然後那個行程"},{"start":10156.06,"end":10158.06,"text":"因為這是對齊這個圖財法的"},{"start":10159.27,"end":10161.27,"text":"你們今天"},{"start":10161.27,"end":10163.27,"text":"修正的"},{"start":10165.14,"end":10167.14,"text":"下線不要訂"},{"start":10167.14,"end":10169.14,"text":"那2500萬就看主席跟委員"},{"start":10169.14,"end":10171.14,"text":"因為這是對齊的圖財法"},{"start":10171.86,"end":10173.86,"text":"因為我們圖財法已經三讀過了"},{"start":10174.22,"end":10176.22,"text":"不要訂下限"},{"start":10176.22,"end":10178.22,"text":"因為農業的法規"},{"start":10178.22,"end":10180.22,"text":"有些農民的一些行為"},{"start":10180.22,"end":10182.22,"text":"那如果"},{"start":10182.22,"end":10184.22,"text":"有些農民的行為誤觸了這個法規"},{"start":10184.22,"end":10186.22,"text":"那就罰到200萬可能過重"},{"start":10186.22,"end":10188.22,"text":"所以我們建議說"},{"start":10188.22,"end":10190.22,"text":"還是有上限"},{"start":10190.22,"end":10192.22,"text":"行政單位去裁量"},{"start":10192.89,"end":10194.89,"text":"好"},{"start":10193.81,"end":10195.81,"text":"那你們就文字在"},{"start":10195.79,"end":10197.79,"text":"訂上限我贊成"},{"start":10197.79,"end":10199.79,"text":"下限的不用去訂"},{"start":10199.79,"end":10201.79,"text":"因為有時候善良的農民"},{"start":10202.64,"end":10204.64,"text":"我知道我知道"},{"start":10204.64,"end":10206.64,"text":"文字修正"},{"start":10206.6,"end":10208.6,"text":"根據我的修正動議"},{"start":10208.65,"end":10210.65,"text":"我"},{"start":10210.15,"end":10212.15,"text":"委員您的修正動議其實就是"},{"start":10212.15,"end":10214.15,"text":"您的修正動議就是"},{"start":10214.15,"end":10216.15,"text":"左邊修正你只要把那個新台幣200萬"},{"start":10216.15,"end":10218.15,"text":"以上這幾個字殺掉就可以了"},{"start":10218.15,"end":10220.15,"text":"就是得幣第一項"},{"start":10220.15,"end":10222.15,"text":"就是得幣課2500萬以下"},{"start":10222.15,"end":10224.15,"text":"罰金"},{"start":10223.75,"end":10225.75,"text":"OK"},{"start":10227.23,"end":10229.23,"text":"我可以啊就再修正"},{"start":10229.59,"end":10231.59,"text":"好"},{"start":10253.43,"end":10255.43,"text":"用現行條文"},{"start":10255.43,"end":10257.43,"text":"我們的罰金的上限都尊重委員的意見調高"},{"start":10257.43,"end":10259.43,"text":"其他的部分不要動"},{"start":10261.01,"end":10263.01,"text":"其他的部分不要動就用現行條文來看"},{"start":10265.4,"end":10267.4,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10268.81,"end":10270.81,"text":"就是有關於罰金的額度我們都同意委員您的調"},{"start":10275.3,"end":10277.3,"text":"好"},{"start":10277.8,"end":10279.8,"text":"現行條文"},{"start":10279.34,"end":10281.34,"text":"你們把文字寫出來"},{"start":10281.34,"end":10283.34,"text":"我們就直接這邊委員簽了就提修正"},{"start":10283.34,"end":10285.34,"text":"再修正動議就好了"},{"start":10285.34,"end":10287.34,"text":"然後金額就是委員的金額"},{"start":10287.34,"end":10289.34,"text":"比如說您後面那個"},{"start":10289.34,"end":10291.34,"text":"有致人於死"},{"start":10291.34,"end":10293.34,"text":"致人於死委員您要的是1億元"},{"start":10293.34,"end":10295.34,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10295.34,"end":10297.34,"text":"那個地方改1億元"},{"start":10297.34,"end":10299.34,"text":"那如果致重傷的部分來講"},{"start":10299.34,"end":10301.34,"text":"改成8000萬"},{"start":10301.34,"end":10303.34,"text":"所以就這個"},{"start":10303.34,"end":10305.34,"text":"現行條文這兩個地方改"},{"start":10305.34,"end":10307.34,"text":"然後過失犯的話"},{"start":10307.3,"end":10309.3,"text":"您是現在過失犯第三項的部分"},{"start":10309.3,"end":10311.3,"text":"現在過失犯第三項的部分"},{"start":10311.3,"end":10313.3,"text":"現在過失犯第三項的部分"},{"start":10313.27,"end":10315.27,"text":"改喔"},{"start":10315.27,"end":10317.27,"text":"過失犯沒有改"},{"start":10317.27,"end":10319.27,"text":"就是100萬嘛"},{"start":10319.27,"end":10321.27,"text":"這也是比現行條文調高"},{"start":10321.27,"end":10323.27,"text":"那我們也是尊重100萬"},{"start":10323.27,"end":10325.27,"text":"那第四項就不動了"},{"start":10323.13,"end":10325.13,"text":"第五項也不動"},{"start":10327.21,"end":10329.21,"text":"這個你們把文字弄完"},{"start":10329.21,"end":10331.21,"text":"我們就直接委員簽修正動議就可以了"},{"start":10331.21,"end":10333.21,"text":"再修正動議就好"},{"start":10333.21,"end":10335.21,"text":"好不好"},{"start":10336.2,"end":10338.2,"text":"通通都用現行條文只是把軍事上線改"},{"start":10339.36,"end":10341.36,"text":"就是你們趕快調換我們委員簽再修正動議"},{"start":10341.36,"end":10343.36,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":10343.36,"end":10345.36,"text":"再唸一次喔"},{"start":10345.36,"end":10347.36,"text":"32項第一項的上限是2500萬"},{"start":10347.36,"end":10349.36,"text":"第二項"},{"start":10349.36,"end":10351.36,"text":"那個致死的話他的上限是1億元"},{"start":10351.36,"end":10353.36,"text":"致重傷的上限是8000萬"},{"start":10355.29,"end":10357.29,"text":"就這三點幹"},{"start":10363,"end":10365,"text":"那你的刑期那些"},{"start":10365,"end":10367,"text":"我也是按照屠宰法"},{"start":10367,"end":10369,"text":"所以你們那些"},{"start":10369,"end":10371,"text":"我比較建議是說"},{"start":10371,"end":10373,"text":"因為我們有關於刑期"},{"start":10373,"end":10375,"text":"有關於釀成災害"},{"start":10375,"end":10377,"text":"第二項釀成災害"},{"start":10377,"end":10379,"text":"那目前加重期刑1%"},{"start":10379,"end":10381,"text":"我覺得這是現行做法"},{"start":10381,"end":10383,"text":"沒有太大的困擾"},{"start":10383,"end":10385,"text":"不要再動它"},{"start":10385,"end":10387,"text":"那刑期的部分你要改成無期徒刑"},{"start":10387,"end":10389,"text":"或一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10389,"end":10391,"text":"可能我們要尊重問一下法務部"},{"start":10388.99,"end":10392.99,"text":"是不是符合刑罰的額度"},{"start":10395.49,"end":10397.49,"text":"好 了解你的意思"},{"start":10397.49,"end":10399.49,"text":"法務部有沒有"},{"start":10400.38,"end":10402.38,"text":"有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":10407.37,"end":10409.37,"text":"法務部的額度調到這麼高"},{"start":10410.51,"end":10412.51,"text":"跟委員說明了"},{"start":10413.66,"end":10415.66,"text":"委員的這個提案我知道"},{"start":10415.66,"end":10417.66,"text":"大概就是跟最新通過的土石採取法"},{"start":10417.66,"end":10419.66,"text":"對阿"},{"start":10419.66,"end":10421.66,"text":"對標"},{"start":10421.66,"end":10423.66,"text":"每一部法律的那個"},{"start":10423.66,"end":10425.66,"text":"追求政策目標"},{"start":10425.66,"end":10427.66,"text":"還有立法目的不太一樣"},{"start":10427.66,"end":10429.66,"text":"土石採取法是不是跟"},{"start":10429.66,"end":10431.66,"text":"我們水保法這邊"},{"start":10431.66,"end":10433.66,"text":"的整個政策評估是不是"},{"start":10433.66,"end":10435.66,"text":"完全一致"},{"start":10435.66,"end":10437.66,"text":"這個我尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":10437.66,"end":10439.66,"text":"因為拉的行動非常的高"},{"start":10439.66,"end":10441.66,"text":"那如果主管機關"},{"start":10441.66,"end":10443.66,"text":"在水土保持的"},{"start":10444.26,"end":10446.26,"text":"政策管理上他評估"},{"start":10446.26,"end":10448.26,"text":"認為說現行的行動"},{"start":10448.26,"end":10450.26,"text":"已經足以規範了"},{"start":10450.26,"end":10452.26,"text":"那只是說罰金的部分"},{"start":10452.26,"end":10454.26,"text":"那"},{"start":10454.26,"end":10456.26,"text":"裁委員的方式就是提高上限"},{"start":10456.26,"end":10458.26,"text":"這個部分他們在政策"},{"start":10458.26,"end":10460.26,"text":"管理上認為就足以應付"},{"start":10460.26,"end":10462.26,"text":"現在實務上的問題"},{"start":10462.26,"end":10464.26,"text":"那我想還是尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":10464.26,"end":10466.26,"text":"沒有去動到原來的"},{"start":10466.26,"end":10468.26,"text":"法定構成要件跟行動"},{"start":10469.31,"end":10471.31,"text":"然後我要跟委員說明一下"},{"start":10471.31,"end":10473.31,"text":"因為土石採取法裡面的"},{"start":10473.31,"end":10475.31,"text":"大部分是業者"},{"start":10475.31,"end":10477.31,"text":"土石業者"},{"start":10477.31,"end":10479.31,"text":"所以他的下限把他拉高沒有太大的問題"},{"start":10479.31,"end":10481.31,"text":"但是我們今天水保法"},{"start":10481.31,"end":10483.31,"text":"的那個違規有一般是"},{"start":10483.31,"end":10485.31,"text":"很多是自然人"},{"start":10485.31,"end":10487.31,"text":"有的是農民"},{"start":10487.31,"end":10489.31,"text":"所以如果您後面的那個罰則"},{"start":10489.31,"end":10491.31,"text":"就算您的行動下限都把他拉高"},{"start":10491.31,"end":10493.31,"text":"恐怕遇到我們這種純農業"},{"start":10493.31,"end":10495.31,"text":"或者是自然人那些違規"},{"start":10495.31,"end":10497.31,"text":"也都一律適用跟業者"},{"start":10497.31,"end":10499.31,"text":"所以我覺得可能有要思考他的"},{"start":10499.31,"end":10501.31,"text":"政策這樣適不適當"},{"start":10502.24,"end":10504.24,"text":"好"},{"start":10503.4,"end":10505.4,"text":"所以我們還是維持這個加重"},{"start":10505.4,"end":10507.4,"text":"行情是二分之一"},{"start":10507.4,"end":10509.4,"text":"維持線型條文的部分"},{"start":10509.4,"end":10511.4,"text":"就是行度的部分"},{"start":10511.4,"end":10513.4,"text":"行度的部分都維持線型的條文"},{"start":10513.4,"end":10515.4,"text":"因為他的確跟第一項還是有落差"},{"start":10515.4,"end":10517.4,"text":"所以你們就是因為"},{"start":10517.4,"end":10519.4,"text":"好 了解你的意思"},{"start":10519.4,"end":10521.4,"text":"就是還是維持原本"},{"start":10521.4,"end":10523.4,"text":"加重其行之二分之一"},{"start":10523.4,"end":10525.4,"text":"這裡"},{"start":10525.85,"end":10527.85,"text":"但是罰金金額我們就是維持我們的上限"},{"start":10527.85,"end":10529.85,"text":"一律標籤那些的"},{"start":10531.14,"end":10533.14,"text":"好 那你們就是再寫一下"},{"start":10533.14,"end":10535.14,"text":"我們就提再修正統一"},{"start":10535.14,"end":10537.14,"text":"讓我們委員簽 好不好"},{"start":10537.14,"end":10539.14,"text":"委員就在這"},{"start":10541,"end":10543,"text":"委員那個螢幕的部分來講"},{"start":10543,"end":10545,"text":"就是紅色的部分就是我們修正的部分"},{"start":10545,"end":10547,"text":"其餘的條文都跟線型條文一致"},{"start":10550.08,"end":10552.08,"text":"三個額度改"},{"start":10551.66,"end":10553.66,"text":"再稍微放大"},{"start":10553.25,"end":10555.25,"text":"是那個病"},{"start":10555.25,"end":10557.25,"text":"是那個病"},{"start":10559.31,"end":10561.31,"text":"是那個病"},{"start":10565.99,"end":10567.99,"text":"第一項就是把原來委員的200萬劃掉而已"},{"start":10567.99,"end":10569.99,"text":"OK"},{"start":10569.99,"end":10571.99,"text":"好 第二項我看一下"},{"start":10572.64,"end":10574.64,"text":"加重刑期二分之一"},{"start":10574.64,"end":10576.64,"text":"兌病科新臺幣一億"},{"start":10576.64,"end":10578.64,"text":"以下罰金兌病科八千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":10580.98,"end":10582.98,"text":"好"},{"start":10584.76,"end":10586.76,"text":"OK"},{"start":10585.95,"end":10587.95,"text":"這樣好不好 把它印出來我們這個委員簽名"},{"start":10587.95,"end":10589.95,"text":"再修正統一就可以"},{"start":10592.1,"end":10594.1,"text":"包括剛剛那一條也是"},{"start":10594.36,"end":10596.36,"text":"OK"},{"start":10595.84,"end":10597.84,"text":"就是前面的第23條"},{"start":10597.84,"end":10599.84,"text":"32條"},{"start":10601.21,"end":10603.21,"text":"233"},{"start":10603.21,"end":10605.21,"text":"對阿23條32條都寫出來"},{"start":10605.21,"end":10607.21,"text":"印出來我們就再修正統一"},{"start":10607.21,"end":10609.21,"text":"我已經說獲什麼"},{"start":10608.77,"end":10610.77,"text":"沒有啦 第23啦"},{"start":10610.81,"end":10612.81,"text":"會加貨"},{"start":10612.81,"end":10614.81,"text":"文字啦"},{"start":10614.81,"end":10616.81,"text":"他就是說文字給他寫出來我們看一下"},{"start":10616.81,"end":10618.81,"text":"再修正統一"},{"start":10618.81,"end":10620.81,"text":"好 第32條就這樣子"},{"start":10620.81,"end":10622.81,"text":"再來我們看第33條"},{"start":10622.81,"end":10624.81,"text":"那33條也是一樣"},{"start":10624.81,"end":10626.81,"text":"我們也同意委員提高罰金"},{"start":10626.81,"end":10628.81,"text":"的法案的上限"},{"start":10628.81,"end":10630.81,"text":"但是建議為是暗示的處罰"},{"start":10630.81,"end":10632.81,"text":"對 我已經改成暗示了"},{"start":10632.81,"end":10634.81,"text":"然後罰金不訂下限的規定"},{"start":10634.81,"end":10636.81,"text":"這剛才已經都特別提到了"},{"start":10638.79,"end":10640.79,"text":"然後委員那個部分"},{"start":10640.79,"end":10642.79,"text":"第二項的部分有沒有"},{"start":10642.79,"end":10644.79,"text":"那個最下面有沒有"},{"start":10644.79,"end":10646.79,"text":"最下面應由誰來負擔這個部分"},{"start":10646.79,"end":10648.79,"text":"現行條文是"},{"start":10648.79,"end":10650.79,"text":"經營人使用人或所有人"},{"start":10650.79,"end":10652.79,"text":"那我們剛剛23條創造一個"},{"start":10652.79,"end":10654.79,"text":"我們就想說是違規行為人"},{"start":10654.79,"end":10656.79,"text":"所以這邊的第二項"},{"start":10656.79,"end":10658.79,"text":"會加 所以我們會優先找"},{"start":10658.79,"end":10660.79,"text":"違規行為人"},{"start":10660.79,"end":10662.79,"text":"應由違規行為人"},{"start":10662.79,"end":10664.79,"text":"經營人使用人或所有人負擔"},{"start":10664.79,"end":10666.79,"text":"我們會加這一段"},{"start":10666.33,"end":10668.33,"text":"加違規行為人"},{"start":10668.1,"end":10670.1,"text":"負擔的部分"},{"start":10670.19,"end":10674.19,"text":"然後罰金的額度都"},{"start":10674.19,"end":10676.19,"text":"尊重委員的部分調高"},{"start":10678.38,"end":10680.38,"text":"就是你們不要下限"},{"start":10680.38,"end":10682.38,"text":"下限不要上 不要動"},{"start":10682.38,"end":10684.38,"text":"上限這樣子"},{"start":10684.38,"end":10686.38,"text":"委員的意見"},{"start":10687.32,"end":10689.32,"text":"好"},{"start":10688.61,"end":10690.61,"text":"法務局"},{"start":10691.56,"end":10693.56,"text":"跟主席說明"},{"start":10693.56,"end":10695.56,"text":"就說33條"},{"start":10695.56,"end":10697.56,"text":"呃"},{"start":10697.57,"end":10701.57,"text":"修正的主要是在第一項的第二款"},{"start":10701.57,"end":10702.57,"text":"第二款的後段"},{"start":10702.57,"end":10704.57,"text":"增訂了一段未經同意"},{"start":10704.57,"end":10706.57,"text":"三資開發經營使用者"},{"start":10706.57,"end":10708.57,"text":"的行政處罰"},{"start":10708.57,"end":10710.57,"text":"那關於他的裁罰"},{"start":10710.57,"end":10712.57,"text":"行政處罰的部分"},{"start":10712.57,"end":10714.57,"text":"這個部分我們就尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":10714.57,"end":10716.57,"text":"不過我們必須要提醒"},{"start":10716.57,"end":10718.57,"text":"就是說因為第二款"},{"start":10718.57,"end":10720.57,"text":"他會連動到第三項"},{"start":10720.57,"end":10722.57,"text":"第三項是一個刑事處罰的規定"},{"start":10722.57,"end":10724.57,"text":"第三項是一個刑事處罰的規定"},{"start":10724.57,"end":10726.57,"text":"第三項是一個刑事處罰的規定"},{"start":10726.57,"end":10728.57,"text":"第三項是規定"},{"start":10728.57,"end":10730.57,"text":"第一項第二款有這些情形"},{"start":10730.57,"end":10732.57,"text":"自生水土流失"},{"start":10732.57,"end":10734.57,"text":"他後面有一些那個"},{"start":10734.57,"end":10736.57,"text":"刑事處罰的規定"},{"start":10736.57,"end":10738.57,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":10739.25,"end":10741.25,"text":"這個部分不是只單純"},{"start":10741.25,"end":10743.25,"text":"行政處"},{"start":10743.25,"end":10745.25,"text":"行政裁罰的部分他會連動到第三項的行政處罰"},{"start":10745.25,"end":10747.25,"text":"行政處罰"},{"start":10747.25,"end":10749.25,"text":"他規範的這種行為"},{"start":10749.25,"end":10751.25,"text":"這種類型"},{"start":10751.25,"end":10753.25,"text":"未經同意"},{"start":10753.19,"end":10755.19,"text":"擅自開發經營的"},{"start":10755.19,"end":10757.19,"text":"這個"},{"start":10756.51,"end":10758.51,"text":"處罰的類型"},{"start":10758.51,"end":10760.51,"text":"跟32條"},{"start":10760.51,"end":10762.51,"text":"前面那一條32條"},{"start":10762.51,"end":10764.51,"text":"在公有土地等等"},{"start":10764.51,"end":10766.51,"text":"擅自懇職"},{"start":10766.51,"end":10768.51,"text":"佔用或者從事"},{"start":10768.9,"end":10770.9,"text":"相關的開發經營使用行為"},{"start":10770.9,"end":10772.9,"text":"他本來就整條"},{"start":10772.9,"end":10774.9,"text":"都有一個完整的刑事處罰規定"},{"start":10774.9,"end":10776.9,"text":"所以"},{"start":10776.9,"end":10778.9,"text":"這樣的話他會"},{"start":10778.9,"end":10780.9,"text":"透過33條"},{"start":10780.9,"end":10782.9,"text":"第三項的規定"},{"start":10782.9,"end":10784.9,"text":"他會跟32條現有的"},{"start":10784.9,"end":10786.9,"text":"刑事處罰規定會產生進合"},{"start":10786.9,"end":10788.9,"text":"那要件又不太一樣"},{"start":10788.9,"end":10790.9,"text":"因為32條"},{"start":10790.9,"end":10792.9,"text":"會拉出來做刑事處罰"},{"start":10792.9,"end":10794.9,"text":"但是限定在"},{"start":10794.77,"end":10796.77,"text":"林區山坡地"},{"start":10797.18,"end":10799.18,"text":"然後他處罰的類型"},{"start":10799.18,"end":10801.18,"text":"比我們"},{"start":10801.18,"end":10803.18,"text":"後面委員的提案還廣"},{"start":10803.18,"end":10805.18,"text":"除了開發行為之外"},{"start":10805.18,"end":10807.18,"text":"他還包括"},{"start":10807.18,"end":10809.18,"text":"佔用懇職等等"},{"start":10810.04,"end":10812.04,"text":"如果在33條"},{"start":10812.04,"end":10814.04,"text":"的第二款"},{"start":10814.04,"end":10816.04,"text":"後段直接加進去"},{"start":10816.04,"end":10818.04,"text":"這一個新增的部分"},{"start":10818.04,"end":10820.04,"text":"他會產生"},{"start":10820.04,"end":10822.04,"text":"跟32條之間有進合"},{"start":10822.04,"end":10824.04,"text":"有矛盾的問題"},{"start":10824.04,"end":10826.04,"text":"所以我們是建議說"},{"start":10826.04,"end":10828.04,"text":"如果主管機關這邊接受"},{"start":10828.04,"end":10830.04,"text":"要增訂這一條"},{"start":10830.04,"end":10832.04,"text":"那不要把它直接加在第二款"},{"start":10832.04,"end":10834.04,"text":"另立一個第三款"},{"start":10834.74,"end":10836.74,"text":"委員您的修正動議"},{"start":10836.74,"end":10838.74,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":10838.74,"end":10840.74,"text":"法務部講的這個問題都不存在"},{"start":10840.74,"end":10842.74,"text":"剛剛委員您的修正動議"},{"start":10842.74,"end":10844.74,"text":"33條第一項第二款"},{"start":10844.74,"end":10846.74,"text":"他沒有後半段"},{"start":10846.74,"end":10848.74,"text":"如果這個拿掉"},{"start":10848.74,"end":10850.74,"text":"當然就沒有這個問題了"},{"start":10850.74,"end":10852.74,"text":"如果說主管機關要接受的話"},{"start":10852.74,"end":10854.74,"text":"我們建議他要另立一款"},{"start":10854.74,"end":10856.74,"text":"就不會去牽動到第三項的刑事處罰規定"},{"start":10856.74,"end":10858.74,"text":"所以這樣建議"},{"start":10858.74,"end":10860.74,"text":"你們把討論到現在"},{"start":10860.74,"end":10862.74,"text":"大家最新有共識的"},{"start":10862.74,"end":10864.74,"text":"不然那個已經刪掉了"},{"start":10864.74,"end":10866.74,"text":"法務部還在講這個內容"},{"start":10866.74,"end":10868.74,"text":"沒有因為他剛沒有看"},{"start":10868.74,"end":10870.74,"text":"委員的後來修正動議今天才發"},{"start":10870.74,"end":10872.74,"text":"那委員您剛的"},{"start":10872.74,"end":10874.74,"text":"未經同意我已經跟您說明"},{"start":10874.74,"end":10876.74,"text":"是用我們23條的第二項就可以處理了"},{"start":10876.74,"end":10878.74,"text":"所以您的罰則那個地方"},{"start":10878.74,"end":10880.74,"text":"就可以不用處理"},{"start":10880.74,"end":10882.74,"text":"因為他就是當然違法23條第二項"},{"start":10882.74,"end":10884.74,"text":"所以他的33條的第一項"},{"start":10884.74,"end":10886.74,"text":"第二款就可以處理了"},{"start":10886.74,"end":10888.74,"text":"都是一併處理的"},{"start":10888.74,"end":10890.74,"text":"所以這邊33條就會非常的單純"},{"start":10890.74,"end":10892.74,"text":"就是用現行條文的"},{"start":10892.74,"end":10894.74,"text":"您的罰款的額度"},{"start":10894.74,"end":10896.74,"text":"我們上限調高"},{"start":10896.74,"end":10898.74,"text":"然後第二項"},{"start":10898.74,"end":10900.74,"text":"義務人最後段的義務人加了一個違規行為人"},{"start":10900.74,"end":10902.74,"text":"因為費用"},{"start":10902.74,"end":10904.74,"text":"一定先找違規行為人"},{"start":10904.74,"end":10906.74,"text":"這個地方加進來"},{"start":10906.74,"end":10908.74,"text":"你現在是在33吧"},{"start":10908.74,"end":10910.74,"text":"我再講33對"},{"start":10910.74,"end":10912.74,"text":"33第二項有沒有"},{"start":10912.74,"end":10914.74,"text":"那您現在提的當然有未經同意"},{"start":10914.74,"end":10916.74,"text":"我剛剛是簽您的修正是為了23條來的"},{"start":10916.74,"end":10918.74,"text":"那23條我們剛剛處理完畢了"},{"start":10918.74,"end":10920.74,"text":"我們現在就處理完畢了嘛"},{"start":10920.47,"end":10922.47,"text":"所以他第一項第二款是不用修的"},{"start":10922.47,"end":10924.47,"text":"就是維持我們現在"},{"start":10924.47,"end":10926.47,"text":"第一項第二款的部分"},{"start":10926.47,"end":10929.47,"text":"所以我就說你把討論到現在的文字"},{"start":10929.47,"end":10931.47,"text":"你把它提出來嘛"},{"start":10931.47,"end":10933.47,"text":"不然每個單位都還在講過去式"},{"start":10933.47,"end":10936.47,"text":"已經討論過了還在講"},{"start":10936.47,"end":10938.47,"text":"先列了"},{"start":10940.46,"end":10942.46,"text":"我們33條罰金額度"},{"start":10942.46,"end":10944.46,"text":"委員上限是300"},{"start":10944.46,"end":10946.46,"text":"那個罰制處不要那麼緊張"},{"start":10946.46,"end":10950.46,"text":"主席我大概充分了解主席心裡的明白"},{"start":10950.46,"end":10952.46,"text":"就是主席一直很在意"},{"start":10952.46,"end":10954.46,"text":"他們的提案內容對於那些行為人"},{"start":10954.46,"end":10956.46,"text":"他本來就是沒有經過同意的人"},{"start":10956.46,"end":10958.46,"text":"那個在已經23條已經處理了"},{"start":10958.46,"end":10960.46,"text":"那我們現在原條文的33條"},{"start":10960.46,"end":10962.46,"text":"他的第二款"},{"start":10962.46,"end":10964.46,"text":"他要寫"},{"start":10964.46,"end":10966.46,"text":"或違反第23條規定"},{"start":10966.46,"end":10968.46,"text":"那因為23條規定已經把"},{"start":10968.46,"end":10972.46,"text":"違規行為人已經放進去了"},{"start":10972.46,"end":10976.46,"text":"所以23條經過那樣的修改之後"},{"start":10976.46,"end":10978.46,"text":"他已經後面不用再加上"},{"start":10978.46,"end":10980.46,"text":"未經同意而擅自開發經營使用者"},{"start":10980.46,"end":10982.46,"text":"這些文字這樣"},{"start":10982.46,"end":10984.46,"text":"因為那在23條已經放到"},{"start":10984.46,"end":10986.46,"text":"所謂違規行為人的裡面"},{"start":10986.46,"end":10988.46,"text":"只要那23條是屬於違規行為人"},{"start":10988.46,"end":10992.46,"text":"他就會適用到33條的第二款"},{"start":10992.46,"end":10994.46,"text":"所以不用在後面那一段"},{"start":10994.79,"end":10996.79,"text":"因為當時我們提出來"},{"start":10996.79,"end":10998.79,"text":"是32條是未經同意的"},{"start":10998.79,"end":11000.79,"text":"那33條是說"},{"start":11000.79,"end":11002.79,"text":"我同意嘛"},{"start":11002.79,"end":11004.79,"text":"然後他違規使用"},{"start":11004.79,"end":11006.79,"text":"就是把這個分出來"},{"start":11006.79,"end":11008.79,"text":"然後精神好不好"},{"start":11008.79,"end":11010.79,"text":"然後他該有的罰則拉高"},{"start":11010.79,"end":11012.79,"text":"就這樣子"},{"start":11012.03,"end":11014.03,"text":"就這樣子"},{"start":11015.96,"end":11017.96,"text":"好"},{"start":11017.96,"end":11019.96,"text":"阿英出來了嗎"},{"start":11020.99,"end":11022.99,"text":"決定了"},{"start":11023.79,"end":11025.79,"text":"我們沒有帶音感機來"},{"start":11028.1,"end":11030.1,"text":"好"},{"start":11029.53,"end":11031.53,"text":"現在電腦系統重新開始"},{"start":11041.68,"end":11043.68,"text":"33條"},{"start":11043.68,"end":11045.68,"text":"螢幕上是33條的部分"},{"start":11045.68,"end":11047.68,"text":"已經在印了"},{"start":11047.13,"end":11049.13,"text":"第一個部分"},{"start":11049.13,"end":11051.13,"text":"往下"},{"start":11051.13,"end":11053.13,"text":"第二項"},{"start":11053.13,"end":11055.13,"text":"違反23條規定"},{"start":11055.13,"end":11057.13,"text":"那為什麼23條已經把違規行為人放進去了"},{"start":11057.13,"end":11059.13,"text":"是"},{"start":11062.74,"end":11064.74,"text":"再往下"},{"start":11064.74,"end":11066.74,"text":"就這裡"},{"start":11066.74,"end":11068.74,"text":"就加了一個違規行為人"},{"start":11075.26,"end":11077.26,"text":"再往下看一下"},{"start":11077.26,"end":11079.26,"text":"往下應該就沒有了"},{"start":11078.92,"end":11080.92,"text":"就是上限調高而已"},{"start":11083.6,"end":11085.6,"text":"好這樣子OK"},{"start":11087.16,"end":11089.16,"text":"那就是印出來我們幾個委員"},{"start":11089.16,"end":11091.16,"text":"簽一下再修正同意好不好"},{"start":11096.54,"end":11098.54,"text":"好"},{"start":11100.59,"end":11102.59,"text":"文字還沒出來"},{"start":11102.59,"end":11104.59,"text":"沒辦法念"},{"start":11104.59,"end":11106.59,"text":"簽完你之後再簽"},{"start":11106.59,"end":11108.59,"text":"可以吧"},{"start":11112.57,"end":11114.57,"text":"等一下再宣讀吧"},{"start":11115.15,"end":11117.15,"text":"我們先進行往下的好不好"},{"start":11119.04,"end":11121.04,"text":"你們還是一樣要印出來給我們"},{"start":11121.04,"end":11123.04,"text":"好"},{"start":11129.5,"end":11131.5,"text":"好我們現在行商討論事項三"},{"start":11131.5,"end":11133.5,"text":"有關山破地保疫利用條例"},{"start":11133.5,"end":11135.5,"text":"部分條文相關修正長"},{"start":11135.5,"end":11137.5,"text":"跟我拍的版本及政天才委員"},{"start":11137.5,"end":11139.5,"text":"等等之修正動議"},{"start":11139.5,"end":11141.5,"text":"以本次會議一併審查"},{"start":11141.5,"end":11143.5,"text":"那我們先從第二條"},{"start":11143.5,"end":11145.5,"text":"開始先請農業部"},{"start":11145.5,"end":11147.5,"text":"說明"},{"start":11147.5,"end":11149.5,"text":"第二條也是一樣就是配合行政院主持改造"},{"start":11150.47,"end":11152.47,"text":"就是我們自治委員的版本"},{"start":11156.14,"end":11158.14,"text":"好所以我們"},{"start":11158.66,"end":11160.66,"text":"就"},{"start":11160.19,"end":11164.19,"text":"萬美齡委員林丹化文政天才委員等人的提案"},{"start":11164.19,"end":11166.19,"text":"加按通過"},{"start":11167.47,"end":11169.47,"text":"對還有謝一芬委員"},{"start":11169.47,"end":11171.47,"text":"通過"},{"start":11172.06,"end":11174.06,"text":"現在的話"},{"start":11174.28,"end":11176.28,"text":"民眾黨團第十條"},{"start":11176.28,"end":11178.28,"text":"第十條的部分"},{"start":11178.28,"end":11180.28,"text":"委員這邊寫一個未經同意的部分"},{"start":11180.28,"end":11182.28,"text":"可是在現行的文字"},{"start":11182.28,"end":11184.28,"text":"那個擅自"},{"start":11184.28,"end":11186.28,"text":"其實就已經涵蓋了未經同意"},{"start":11186.28,"end":11188.28,"text":"所以我們是建議"},{"start":11188.28,"end":11190.28,"text":"為行現行的一個規定"},{"start":11195.11,"end":11197.11,"text":"三波未經同意不得擅自"},{"start":11200.64,"end":11202.64,"text":"對啊三字這個字眼"},{"start":11202.64,"end":11204.64,"text":"當初第十條"},{"start":11204.64,"end":11206.64,"text":"跟委員說明一下當初第十條"},{"start":11206.64,"end":11208.64,"text":"在公有或他人三波地內不得擅自"},{"start":11208.64,"end":11210.64,"text":"懇職佔用"},{"start":11210.64,"end":11212.64,"text":"擅自的意思一定就是沒有經過同意"},{"start":11213.62,"end":11215.62,"text":"所以他這個文字內涵已經包含未經同意的意思了"},{"start":11215.62,"end":11217.62,"text":"所以我們建議是不是"},{"start":11217.62,"end":11219.62,"text":"維持現行條文不予修正"},{"start":11219.62,"end":11221.62,"text":"因為文意是一樣的"},{"start":11226.58,"end":11228.58,"text":"我知道"},{"start":11228.58,"end":11230.58,"text":"當初我們為什麼要下這個的話"},{"start":11230.58,"end":11232.58,"text":"再回想一下"},{"start":11233.8,"end":11235.8,"text":"對啊"},{"start":11246.12,"end":11248.12,"text":"未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11248.12,"end":11250.12,"text":"這跟不得擅自懇職是一樣"},{"start":11250.12,"end":11252.12,"text":"不用多好嘛"},{"start":11252.12,"end":11254.12,"text":"未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11255.4,"end":11257.4,"text":"對也是一樣"},{"start":11259.35,"end":11261.35,"text":"濃度這樣可以嗎"},{"start":11261.04,"end":11263.04,"text":"就是未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11265.6,"end":11267.6,"text":"跟不得擅自可能是一樣"},{"start":11268.73,"end":11270.73,"text":"感覺未經同意比較理解"},{"start":11273.09,"end":11275.09,"text":"我自治是主席啦"},{"start":11275.09,"end":11277.09,"text":"因為未經同意就要有一個人同意嘛"},{"start":11277.09,"end":11279.09,"text":"那擅自是"},{"start":11279.09,"end":11281.09,"text":"我就大主大義台語就不一樣了"},{"start":11281.09,"end":11283.09,"text":"不經過你同意我不行做"},{"start":11283.09,"end":11285.09,"text":"我不行大主大義做"},{"start":11285.09,"end":11287.09,"text":"當然才不經過同意"},{"start":11287.09,"end":11289.09,"text":"因為我們也不會那麼無聊說為什麼要加這個"},{"start":11289.09,"end":11291.09,"text":"因為那時候就是你沒有經過這個同意"},{"start":11291.09,"end":11293.09,"text":"因為擅自就是"},{"start":11294.45,"end":11296.45,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":11296.45,"end":11298.45,"text":"全人同意啊"},{"start":11298.45,"end":11300.45,"text":"擅自就包含"},{"start":11299.36,"end":11301.36,"text":"更明確一點"},{"start":11303.06,"end":11305.06,"text":"那是不是未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11307.41,"end":11309.41,"text":"因為如果未經同意"},{"start":11309.41,"end":11311.41,"text":"他還會不會還有一個主持"},{"start":11311.41,"end":11313.41,"text":"未經誰同意不得懇職"},{"start":11313.41,"end":11315.41,"text":"未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11316.63,"end":11318.63,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11318.85,"end":11320.85,"text":"好"},{"start":11322.31,"end":11324.31,"text":"那我們就修正通過"},{"start":11328.49,"end":11330.49,"text":"非常好"},{"start":11331.27,"end":11333.27,"text":"第15條"},{"start":11333.27,"end":11335.27,"text":"徐富可羅志強"},{"start":11334.77,"end":11336.77,"text":"提案"},{"start":11336.77,"end":11338.77,"text":"請說"},{"start":11338.77,"end":11340.77,"text":"第15條這邊我們現行的文字是"},{"start":11340.77,"end":11342.77,"text":"發生災害之虞"},{"start":11342.77,"end":11344.77,"text":"那他的文字範圍其實也包含了"},{"start":11344.77,"end":11346.77,"text":"危害人身安全之虞"},{"start":11347.66,"end":11349.66,"text":"好"},{"start":11348.67,"end":11350.67,"text":"但是我們是希望這樣明確"},{"start":11350.67,"end":11352.67,"text":"所以你們應該也沒有意見吧"},{"start":11352.5,"end":11354.5,"text":"不是委員您如果這樣寫人身安全"},{"start":11354.5,"end":11356.5,"text":"別人就可能會問"},{"start":11356.5,"end":11358.5,"text":"那財產的安全呢"},{"start":11358.5,"end":11360.5,"text":"那所以那時候我們就前面有"},{"start":11360.5,"end":11362.5,"text":"自身自有發生災害"},{"start":11362.5,"end":11364.5,"text":"之虞"},{"start":11364.5,"end":11366.5,"text":"那時候的意思只要有災害"},{"start":11366.5,"end":11368.5,"text":"那災害之虞"},{"start":11368.5,"end":11370.5,"text":"那範圍會很大"},{"start":11370.5,"end":11372.5,"text":"如果你只限人身安全"},{"start":11372.5,"end":11374.5,"text":"那財產呢還有很多的"},{"start":11374.5,"end":11376.5,"text":"部分要處理"},{"start":11376.5,"end":11378.5,"text":"所以我們會比較建議是說是不是還是"},{"start":11378.5,"end":11380.5,"text":"維持現行條文"},{"start":11380.5,"end":11382.5,"text":"都發生災害或危害"},{"start":11382.5,"end":11384.5,"text":"公共設施之虞"},{"start":11384.5,"end":11386.5,"text":"所以意思是說只要有這樣的風險"},{"start":11386.5,"end":11388.5,"text":"我們就要做處理"},{"start":11388.5,"end":11390.5,"text":"我們就可以做限制"},{"start":11390.5,"end":11392.5,"text":"所以您後面限說人身安全"},{"start":11392.5,"end":11394.5,"text":"可能就會凸顯怪異漏漫的問題"},{"start":11395.89,"end":11397.89,"text":"不是我提的"},{"start":11398.91,"end":11400.91,"text":"那麼我很好奇"},{"start":11401.34,"end":11403.34,"text":"那麼危害公共設施是不是等同於"},{"start":11404.44,"end":11406.44,"text":"好"},{"start":11405.52,"end":11407.52,"text":"發生災害"},{"start":11407.52,"end":11409.52,"text":"危害公共設施算不算發生災害"},{"start":11409.52,"end":11411.52,"text":"有沒有被涵蓋在裡面"},{"start":11411.02,"end":11413.02,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11412.22,"end":11414.22,"text":"發生災害是已經要發生了嘛"},{"start":11414.22,"end":11416.22,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11416.22,"end":11418.22,"text":"要明確的生命人身"},{"start":11418.22,"end":11420.22,"text":"財產的損失叫災害"},{"start":11420.22,"end":11422.22,"text":"那危害公共設施是"},{"start":11422.99,"end":11424.99,"text":"危害公共設施"},{"start":11424.99,"end":11426.99,"text":"所以你這個之虞是只有修飾"},{"start":11426.99,"end":11428.99,"text":"危害公共設施還是"},{"start":11429.62,"end":11431.62,"text":"連同災害"},{"start":11431.62,"end":11433.62,"text":"連發生災害之虞都在裡面"},{"start":11433.62,"end":11435.62,"text":"好"},{"start":11435.62,"end":11437.62,"text":"那如果你連發生災害之虞"},{"start":11437.62,"end":11439.62,"text":"跟危害公共設施之虞"},{"start":11439.62,"end":11441.62,"text":"那麼請問危害公共設施"},{"start":11441.62,"end":11443.62,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":11442.92,"end":11444.92,"text":"涵蓋在發生災害的當中"},{"start":11445.43,"end":11447.43,"text":"也是啊"},{"start":11447.43,"end":11449.43,"text":"也是嘛"},{"start":11449.43,"end":11451.43,"text":"所以其實它這裡面的是"},{"start":11451.43,"end":11453.43,"text":"這個法條的原因是說"},{"start":11453.43,"end":11455.43,"text":"只要發生災害之虞就應該限制"},{"start":11455.43,"end":11457.43,"text":"那特別強調這個發生災害的內容"},{"start":11457.43,"end":11459.43,"text":"還特別標示"},{"start":11459.43,"end":11461.43,"text":"公共設施也是其中之一"},{"start":11461.43,"end":11463.43,"text":"所以"},{"start":11462.14,"end":11464.14,"text":"公共設施是在前面災害的"},{"start":11464.14,"end":11466.14,"text":"含色的範圍內"},{"start":11466.14,"end":11468.14,"text":"那如果按照這個邏輯"},{"start":11468.14,"end":11470.14,"text":"人身安全也在這個災害的"},{"start":11470.14,"end":11472.14,"text":"含色範圍內沒有寫到的財產"},{"start":11472.14,"end":11474.14,"text":"也害這個災害的"},{"start":11474.14,"end":11476.14,"text":"含色範圍內所以其實"},{"start":11476.14,"end":11478.14,"text":"不管是加入"},{"start":11478.14,"end":11480.14,"text":"危害公共設施或是人身安全"},{"start":11480.14,"end":11482.14,"text":"都是在災害的項目"},{"start":11482.14,"end":11484.14,"text":"下立法者強化"},{"start":11484.14,"end":11486.14,"text":"強調我們的目的保障"},{"start":11486.14,"end":11488.14,"text":"的課題所以我是覺得"},{"start":11488.14,"end":11490.14,"text":"這個到"},{"start":11489.36,"end":11491.36,"text":"也沒有關係啦"},{"start":11490.96,"end":11492.96,"text":"委員只是說您說的問題"},{"start":11492.96,"end":11494.96,"text":"您說的這種說法"},{"start":11494.96,"end":11496.96,"text":"也算一個說法但是"},{"start":11496.96,"end":11498.96,"text":"它也可能凸顯另外一個說法"},{"start":11498.96,"end":11500.96,"text":"為什麼因為你現在如果假設"},{"start":11500.96,"end":11502.96,"text":"危害公共設施及人身安全之虞"},{"start":11502.96,"end":11504.96,"text":"我特別把它寫出來"},{"start":11504.96,"end":11506.96,"text":"公共設施人身安全"},{"start":11506.96,"end":11508.96,"text":"它是綁在一起"},{"start":11508.96,"end":11510.96,"text":"那這樣私人的財產"},{"start":11510.96,"end":11512.96,"text":"就不在你手上"},{"start":11512.96,"end":11514.96,"text":"不會啊在災害裡面啊因為我們只是"},{"start":11514.96,"end":11516.96,"text":"在災害底下去特別強調"},{"start":11516.96,"end":11518.96,"text":"公共設施 先從就不夠"},{"start":11518.96,"end":11520.96,"text":"還要加上人身安全"},{"start":11520.96,"end":11522.96,"text":"那麼因為在如果災害"},{"start":11522.96,"end":11524.96,"text":"已經含色後面的公共設施了"},{"start":11524.96,"end":11526.96,"text":"我後面要加人身安全你要加什麼"},{"start":11526.96,"end":11528.96,"text":"都是隨便我們要重視"},{"start":11528.96,"end":11530.96,"text":"什麼都可以重視啊其實並沒有說"},{"start":11530.96,"end":11532.96,"text":"民事其一排除其他啦"},{"start":11532.96,"end":11534.96,"text":"並沒有這個意思嘛難道我民事公共設施"},{"start":11534.96,"end":11536.96,"text":"我就排除其他嗎也沒有啊"},{"start":11537.45,"end":11539.45,"text":"好我是覺得喔"},{"start":11538.92,"end":11540.92,"text":"委員有這樣的一個目的"},{"start":11540.92,"end":11542.92,"text":"盡量讓委員在立法者"},{"start":11542.92,"end":11544.92,"text":"彰顯他們的保障的課題啦"},{"start":11544.92,"end":11546.92,"text":"好不好"},{"start":11546.92,"end":11548.92,"text":"我想我們也尊重委員的意見啦"},{"start":11548.92,"end":11550.92,"text":"因為我們剛才只是表達說"},{"start":11550.92,"end":11552.92,"text":"就是發生災害之虞其實已經涵蓋了"},{"start":11552.92,"end":11554.92,"text":"但是如果立法裡面要去凸顯的時候"},{"start":11554.92,"end":11556.92,"text":"我想我也尊重委員的意見"},{"start":11557.28,"end":11559.28,"text":"好啦這樣子我覺得他只是要強調"},{"start":11559.28,"end":11561.28,"text":"因為你人身嘛"},{"start":11561.28,"end":11563.28,"text":"好不好"},{"start":11562.51,"end":11564.51,"text":"我們就照徐富奎委員"},{"start":11564.51,"end":11566.51,"text":"羅志強委員的提案"},{"start":11566.51,"end":11568.51,"text":"照樣通過"},{"start":11570.97,"end":11574.97,"text":"好接下來臺灣民眾黨黨團第34條"},{"start":11574.97,"end":11576.97,"text":"34條我們基本上也是"},{"start":11576.97,"end":11578.97,"text":"採取一貫的立場就是"},{"start":11578.97,"end":11580.97,"text":"致誓委員提高罰金的上限"},{"start":11580.97,"end":11582.97,"text":"但是建議維持"},{"start":11582.97,"end":11584.97,"text":"下限不定下限的一個規定"},{"start":11586.54,"end":11588.54,"text":"看一下34條我們的"},{"start":11588.54,"end":11590.54,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":11595.06,"end":11597.06,"text":"所以一樣你也是200萬元以上拿掉"},{"start":11597.06,"end":11599.06,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11598.91,"end":11600.91,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":11603.53,"end":11605.53,"text":"委員下限不定"},{"start":11605.53,"end":11607.53,"text":"所以基本上來講上限就"},{"start":11607.53,"end":11609.53,"text":"維持"},{"start":11609.53,"end":11611.53,"text":"維持您要到2500萬嘛"},{"start":11611.53,"end":11613.53,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11613.53,"end":11615.53,"text":"所以第一項就是上限調成2500萬"},{"start":11615.53,"end":11617.53,"text":"那第二項刑罰"},{"start":11617.53,"end":11619.53,"text":"是加重二分之一我們還是"},{"start":11619.53,"end":11621.53,"text":"維持刑刑條文就剛剛跟水保法一樣"},{"start":11621.53,"end":11623.53,"text":"OK"},{"start":11623.53,"end":11625.53,"text":"所以上限的部分一樣"},{"start":11625.53,"end":11627.53,"text":"您要調成6000萬"},{"start":11627.53,"end":11629.53,"text":"就調成6000萬"},{"start":11629.53,"end":11631.53,"text":"然後有關於致誓中傷的"},{"start":11631.53,"end":11633.53,"text":"以上十年以下委員"},{"start":11633.53,"end":11635.53,"text":"我們還是維持現行的"},{"start":11635.53,"end":11637.53,"text":"條文"},{"start":11637.53,"end":11639.53,"text":"我們刑度都不調"},{"start":11639.53,"end":11641.53,"text":"我們都只調上限"},{"start":11641.53,"end":11643.53,"text":"罰金的部分上限都調成8000萬"},{"start":11644.12,"end":11646.12,"text":"這是第二項"},{"start":11648.29,"end":11650.29,"text":"所以第二項只改一個"},{"start":11650.85,"end":11652.85,"text":"沒有三保條例"},{"start":11652.85,"end":11654.85,"text":"就是到三保就是說"},{"start":11654.85,"end":11656.85,"text":"刑期的部分就是二分之一的"},{"start":11656.85,"end":11658.85,"text":"原則然後那個"},{"start":11658.85,"end":11660.85,"text":"新台幣200萬以上的上限就不要"},{"start":11660.85,"end":11662.85,"text":"就這樣子上限我們都"},{"start":11662.85,"end":11664.85,"text":"把它拉高跟我們委員版本一樣"},{"start":11666.65,"end":11668.65,"text":"刑度我們都不調"},{"start":11668.65,"end":11670.65,"text":"只有罰金調他"},{"start":11670.65,"end":11672.65,"text":"罰金的上限調"},{"start":11672.65,"end":11674.65,"text":"所以第二項第三項都一樣"},{"start":11674.65,"end":11676.65,"text":"那一樣也是"},{"start":11676.65,"end":11678.65,"text":"就是寫出來我們就是在簽免在修正動議"},{"start":11679.74,"end":11681.74,"text":"好接下來的話"},{"start":11685.01,"end":11687.01,"text":"第35條"},{"start":11687.01,"end":11689.01,"text":"也是一樣就是"},{"start":11689.01,"end":11691.01,"text":"就是致誓委員提高"},{"start":11691.01,"end":11693.01,"text":"罰金好法案的上限但是"},{"start":11693.01,"end":11695.01,"text":"維持暗次處罰"},{"start":11695.01,"end":11697.01,"text":"然後法案的下限"},{"start":11697.01,"end":11699.01,"text":"跟他的罰金"},{"start":11699.01,"end":11701.01,"text":"他不定下限"},{"start":11702.3,"end":11704.3,"text":"因為我的修正動議也是配合"},{"start":11704.3,"end":11706.3,"text":"那個圖裁法我都改成"},{"start":11706.3,"end":11708.3,"text":"暗次然後那個字"},{"start":11708.3,"end":11710.3,"text":"改正那個字我把它修正"},{"start":11710.3,"end":11712.3,"text":"掉因為那是錯字"},{"start":11712.3,"end":11714.3,"text":"然後其他的話"},{"start":11714.3,"end":11716.3,"text":"一樣就是跟上面的法條"},{"start":11716.3,"end":11718.3,"text":"一樣就是下限"},{"start":11718.3,"end":11720.3,"text":"把它拿掉但上限都維持"},{"start":11720.3,"end":11722.3,"text":"我們委員的一個調整"},{"start":11722.3,"end":11724.3,"text":"的修正"},{"start":11728.97,"end":11730.97,"text":"我們也有這一款"},{"start":11730.97,"end":11732.97,"text":"因為我們的"},{"start":11732.97,"end":11734.97,"text":"線型條文只有"},{"start":11734.97,"end":11736.97,"text":"因為那個我們的線型條文"},{"start":11736.97,"end":11738.97,"text":"只有兩款"},{"start":11739.36,"end":11741.36,"text":"35條是35我們現在討論35條"},{"start":11741.36,"end":11743.36,"text":"對不對35條"},{"start":11743.36,"end":11745.36,"text":"的時候用第10條"},{"start":11745.36,"end":11747.36,"text":"第10條剛回到一樣"},{"start":11747.36,"end":11749.36,"text":"第10條委員您的那個"},{"start":11749.36,"end":11751.36,"text":"擅自開發的那個部分就跟"},{"start":11751.36,"end":11753.36,"text":"水保法那個邏輯是一樣的"},{"start":11754.75,"end":11756.75,"text":"所以他不用獨立一款出來"},{"start":11761.13,"end":11763.13,"text":"我們線型條文就是一個"},{"start":11763.13,"end":11765.13,"text":"因你拒一個為你拒"},{"start":11765.13,"end":11767.13,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11767.13,"end":11769.13,"text":"你看35條線型條文就是"},{"start":11769.13,"end":11771.13,"text":"您這邊第二款依法因你拒"},{"start":11771.13,"end":11773.13,"text":"而為你拒"},{"start":11773.13,"end":11775.13,"text":"這就是你擅自為同意去道理"},{"start":11775.13,"end":11777.13,"text":"一樣是沒有你拒水保計畫"},{"start":11777.13,"end":11779.13,"text":"所以他用這一款的前段就可以"},{"start":11779.13,"end":11781.13,"text":"所以你把它那個"},{"start":11781.13,"end":11783.13,"text":"那個一樣對對對對"},{"start":11783.13,"end":11785.13,"text":"那就是配合修正動議這樣出來"},{"start":11785.13,"end":11787.13,"text":"維持線型條文的"},{"start":11787.13,"end":11789.13,"text":"格式處理就可以了"},{"start":11788.94,"end":11790.94,"text":"要請他們寫出來好不好"},{"start":11792.8,"end":11794.8,"text":"35條"},{"start":11794.8,"end":11796.8,"text":"好一樣也會寫出來"},{"start":11796.8,"end":11798.8,"text":"我們再聽再修正動議"},{"start":11800.43,"end":11802.43,"text":"好"},{"start":11811.75,"end":11813.75,"text":"接下來我們進行的是"},{"start":11815.77,"end":11817.77,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11817.77,"end":11819.77,"text":"37條"},{"start":11819.77,"end":11821.77,"text":"我想我們尊重原民會的立場"},{"start":11823.01,"end":11825.01,"text":"我們就看那個"},{"start":11825.01,"end":11827.01,"text":"最後一次的提案"},{"start":11828.63,"end":11830.63,"text":"第一跟第二次的合併到第三個部分"},{"start":11832.92,"end":11834.92,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":11834.52,"end":11836.52,"text":"就是這個第三個"},{"start":11838.47,"end":11840.47,"text":"好"},{"start":11840.64,"end":11842.64,"text":"就第37條"},{"start":11842.64,"end":11844.64,"text":"就第37條"},{"start":11849.08,"end":11851.08,"text":"跟那個"},{"start":11851.08,"end":11853.08,"text":"跟委員報告就是說37條"},{"start":11853.08,"end":11855.08,"text":"那個部分"},{"start":11855.08,"end":11857.08,"text":"政委員提案的版本大概有三個重點"},{"start":11857.08,"end":11859.08,"text":"第一個重點是有關於"},{"start":11859.08,"end":11861.08,"text":"37條第一項"},{"start":11861.08,"end":11863.08,"text":"跟第二項"},{"start":11863.08,"end":11865.08,"text":"還有就是說那個修正動議"},{"start":11865.08,"end":11867.08,"text":"第四項的部分分別"},{"start":11867.08,"end":11869.08,"text":"針對那個有關於"},{"start":11869.08,"end":11871.08,"text":"部落取得原保地所有權"},{"start":11871.08,"end":11873.08,"text":"的部分有所去"},{"start":11873.08,"end":11875.08,"text":"修正"},{"start":11875.08,"end":11877.08,"text":"那這個部分本會去會比較建議說"},{"start":11877.08,"end":11879.08,"text":"那第四項"},{"start":11879.08,"end":11881.08,"text":"就是原條文的部分"},{"start":11881.08,"end":11883.08,"text":"那維持原條文的原因"},{"start":11883.08,"end":11885.08,"text":"最主要考慮到說"},{"start":11885.08,"end":11887.08,"text":"因為依照現行土地法"},{"start":11887.08,"end":11889.08,"text":"跟民法有關於不動產登記"},{"start":11889.08,"end":11891.08,"text":"主體的部分是以自然人"},{"start":11891.08,"end":11893.08,"text":"跟法人為限"},{"start":11893.08,"end":11895.08,"text":"那我們先那個修正條文"},{"start":11895.08,"end":11897.08,"text":"的部分因為只有寫部落"},{"start":11897.08,"end":11899.08,"text":"那到底是不是有包含部落"},{"start":11899.08,"end":11901.08,"text":"具有法人資格的部落"},{"start":11901.08,"end":11903.08,"text":"這樣子會覺得在語意上面"},{"start":11903.08,"end":11905.08,"text":"可能在施用上會產生爭議"},{"start":11905.08,"end":11907.08,"text":"那這個部分我們是針對"},{"start":11907.08,"end":11909.08,"text":"這個部分我們是建議維持"},{"start":11909.08,"end":11911.08,"text":"原條文的部分不要動"},{"start":11911.08,"end":11913.08,"text":"那第二個那個鄭委員提案的"},{"start":11913.08,"end":11915.08,"text":"一個版本就是有關於"},{"start":11915.08,"end":11917.08,"text":"政府承受私有原保地"},{"start":11917.08,"end":11919.08,"text":"土地價值"},{"start":11919.08,"end":11921.08,"text":"就是在那個"},{"start":11921.08,"end":11923.08,"text":"委員的提案修正動議"},{"start":11923.08,"end":11925.08,"text":"的第六項的部分"},{"start":11925.08,"end":11927.08,"text":"委員有建議就是說"},{"start":11927.08,"end":11929.08,"text":"由政府承受私有原保地"},{"start":11929.08,"end":11931.08,"text":"的部分其土地價值"},{"start":11931.08,"end":11933.08,"text":"以公告限制為計算基礎"},{"start":11933.08,"end":11935.08,"text":"那這個部分我跟委員報告"},{"start":11935.08,"end":11937.08,"text":"這個部分是不是容許我們加一個"},{"start":11937.08,"end":11939.08,"text":"但書的規定就是因為"},{"start":11939.08,"end":11941.08,"text":"考量到就是說"},{"start":11941.08,"end":11943.08,"text":"原保地的公告限制其實"},{"start":11943.08,"end":11945.08,"text":"是蠻低的那你如果再加上"},{"start":11945.08,"end":11947.08,"text":"市層的部分"},{"start":11947.08,"end":11949.08,"text":"也是還是很低啦所以我們"},{"start":11949.08,"end":11951.08,"text":"會建議說我們會"},{"start":11951.08,"end":11953.08,"text":"參彩"},{"start":11953.08,"end":11955.08,"text":"委員的建議的部分但是"},{"start":11955.08,"end":11957.08,"text":"後面在"},{"start":11957.08,"end":11959.08,"text":"就是後面加一段但書就是說"},{"start":11959.08,"end":11961.08,"text":"但經不動產"}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進行調理"},{"start":12140.55,"end":12142.55,"text":"好 第一個我就從後面講"},{"start":12143.85,"end":12145.85,"text":"這個因為研民會"},{"start":12145.85,"end":12147.85,"text":"所提的原住民保留地"},{"start":12148.19,"end":12150.19,"text":"什麼條例"},{"start":12150.98,"end":12152.98,"text":"已經報行政院很久了"},{"start":12153,"end":12155,"text":"行政院被迫要審"},{"start":12155.77,"end":12157.77,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法去干預"},{"start":12157.77,"end":12159.77,"text":"那現在是這樣我們就"},{"start":12159.77,"end":12161.77,"text":"回到這個本席的"},{"start":12161.77,"end":12163.77,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":12163.77,"end":12165.77,"text":"修正條文"},{"start":12165.79,"end":12167.79,"text":"為什麼要把部落"},{"start":12168.12,"end":12170.12,"text":"內陸進去"},{"start":12170.12,"end":12172.12,"text":"先不要發 因為等一下還要修"},{"start":12172.27,"end":12174.27,"text":"還要修"},{"start":12173.86,"end":12175.86,"text":"為什麼要把部落"},{"start":12175.8,"end":12177.8,"text":"要放進去"},{"start":12177.44,"end":12179.44,"text":"最主要在我們的"},{"start":12179.61,"end":12181.61,"text":"這個鹽香"},{"start":12183.34,"end":12185.34,"text":"原住民私人的土地就是私人的土地"},{"start":12186.73,"end":12188.73,"text":"這個土地"},{"start":12188.12,"end":12190.12,"text":"我們原住民私人不會去"},{"start":12191.88,"end":12193.88,"text":"不會去占用不會去使用"},{"start":12193.88,"end":12195.88,"text":"就是部落在使用"},{"start":12196.27,"end":12198.27,"text":"所以這個部分是回到"},{"start":12198.27,"end":12200.27,"text":"事實 會回到事實面"},{"start":12201.16,"end":12203.16,"text":"部落"},{"start":12202.66,"end":12204.66,"text":"事實上原計法第二條之一"},{"start":12205.82,"end":12207.82,"text":"已經明定部落是公法人"},{"start":12209.4,"end":12211.4,"text":"只不過"},{"start":12211,"end":12213,"text":"是"},{"start":12212.05,"end":12214.05,"text":"法律已經授權"},{"start":12214.05,"end":12216.05,"text":"第二條之一"},{"start":12216.05,"end":12218.05,"text":"已經授權"},{"start":12218,"end":12220,"text":"部落是公法人"},{"start":12220,"end":12222,"text":"然後授權"},{"start":12220.97,"end":12222.97,"text":"人民會要定這個"},{"start":12223.56,"end":12225.56,"text":"部落公法人的設置辦法"},{"start":12226.2,"end":12228.2,"text":"但是一直沒有定"},{"start":12228.28,"end":12230.28,"text":"已經超過8年了 10年了"},{"start":12232.38,"end":12234.38,"text":"而且蔡總統也說"},{"start":12235.92,"end":12237.92,"text":"部落公法人的制度"},{"start":12237.92,"end":12239.92,"text":"已經上路了"},{"start":12239.92,"end":12241.92,"text":"現在已經10年了"},{"start":12242.46,"end":12244.46,"text":"如果你有疑慮的話"},{"start":12245.63,"end":12247.63,"text":"部落公法人也可以"},{"start":12250.47,"end":12252.47,"text":"好"},{"start":12251.42,"end":12253.42,"text":"對不對 如果你剛剛講的土地法手"},{"start":12254.69,"end":12258.69,"text":"其實我們很多原住民的土地的問題"},{"start":12258.69,"end":12260.69,"text":"都是"},{"start":12261.84,"end":12263.84,"text":"現在都是一夜"},{"start":12263.97,"end":12265.97,"text":"一夜相關的法律了"},{"start":12266.27,"end":12268.27,"text":"我們現在政法跟保留地都繼續做"},{"start":12268.27,"end":12270.27,"text":"沒有法律的意志了"},{"start":12271.18,"end":12273.18,"text":"因為很特殊"},{"start":12273.07,"end":12275.07,"text":"也不會增加"},{"start":12275.92,"end":12277.92,"text":"就是部落在使用就是在使用"},{"start":12277.92,"end":12279.92,"text":"也不會去增加那些面積土地了"},{"start":12279.92,"end":12281.92,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":12281.92,"end":12283.92,"text":"這個人民會希望能夠支持"},{"start":12283.92,"end":12285.92,"text":"看你要"},{"start":12285.92,"end":12287.92,"text":"如果你一定要加"},{"start":12287.92,"end":12289.92,"text":"部落公法人也沒關係"},{"start":12290.03,"end":12292.03,"text":"這是第一個部分"},{"start":12292.56,"end":12294.56,"text":"第二個"},{"start":12294.97,"end":12296.97,"text":"這個剛才你講的那個公告限制"},{"start":12296.97,"end":12298.97,"text":"加市城那個部分"},{"start":12298.97,"end":12300.97,"text":"當然我是參考"},{"start":12300.97,"end":12302.97,"text":"早期的"},{"start":12302.21,"end":12304.21,"text":"土地正式條例了"},{"start":12303.9,"end":12305.9,"text":"4號"},{"start":12304.88,"end":12306.88,"text":"那因為土地之後條例現在修得更好"},{"start":12306.88,"end":12308.88,"text":"但是對原住民保留地來說是有害"},{"start":12312.33,"end":12314.33,"text":"因為"},{"start":12313.7,"end":12315.7,"text":"因為我們周邊都沒有買賣"},{"start":12316.64,"end":12318.64,"text":"沒有買賣就沒有公告限"},{"start":12318.64,"end":12320.64,"text":"就沒有那個什麼市價"},{"start":12320.64,"end":12322.64,"text":"沒有市價"},{"start":12322.64,"end":12324.64,"text":"所以你要加剛才那些文字"},{"start":12324.64,"end":12326.64,"text":"我支持"},{"start":12326.64,"end":12328.64,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12330.05,"end":12332.05,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12332.35,"end":12334.35,"text":"到數第二項那個部分"},{"start":12334.35,"end":12336.35,"text":"就是非原住民建民登記"},{"start":12336.35,"end":12338.35,"text":"無效那個部分"},{"start":12338.35,"end":12340.35,"text":"你們沒有問題嗎"},{"start":12340.35,"end":12342.35,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們有問題"},{"start":12342.35,"end":12344.35,"text":"因為"},{"start":12344.35,"end":12346.35,"text":"無效啊"},{"start":12346.35,"end":12348.35,"text":"對無效這部分是沒問題"},{"start":12348.35,"end":12350.35,"text":"但是後段那個說"},{"start":12350.35,"end":12352.35,"text":"中央原住民主管機關因查明"},{"start":12352.35,"end":12354.35,"text":"並肅情反反這個部分"},{"start":12354.35,"end":12356.35,"text":"這個部分我們在執行面會有困擾"},{"start":12356.35,"end":12358.35,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":12358.72,"end":12360.72,"text":"你剛剛有提到地方政府嗎"},{"start":12360.72,"end":12362.72,"text":"對"},{"start":12362.72,"end":12364.72,"text":"這個你可以在那個最後一項"},{"start":12364.72,"end":12366.72,"text":"授權的訂定"},{"start":12366.72,"end":12368.72,"text":"授權訂的辦法裡面"},{"start":12368.72,"end":12370.72,"text":"可以在這個授權訂的辦法裡面"},{"start":12370.72,"end":12372.72,"text":"去照"},{"start":12372.72,"end":12374.72,"text":"去把他明定"},{"start":12374.72,"end":12376.72,"text":"現在也是這樣做啊"},{"start":12376.72,"end":12378.72,"text":"也是依這個授權訂的辦法來做啊"},{"start":12378.72,"end":12380.72,"text":"只不過是我們"},{"start":12379.11,"end":12381.11,"text":"很明確的依最高行政法院的判決"},{"start":12382.92,"end":12384.92,"text":"他是無效的"},{"start":12385.99,"end":12387.99,"text":"要把它法制化"},{"start":12387.99,"end":12389.99,"text":"地方政府才會去"},{"start":12389.99,"end":12391.99,"text":"重視才會去執行"},{"start":12391.99,"end":12393.99,"text":"報告委員因為你這邊如果把它"},{"start":12393.99,"end":12395.99,"text":"變成法律條文的一個象徵的話"},{"start":12395.99,"end":12397.99,"text":"因為這個是規定在法律"},{"start":12397.99,"end":12399.99,"text":"的層次裡面"},{"start":12399.99,"end":12401.99,"text":"那如果說這邊明定是中央原住民"},{"start":12401.99,"end":12403.99,"text":"主管機關要肅情反反的話"},{"start":12403.99,"end":12405.99,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":12405.99,"end":12407.99,"text":"地方政府尤其是公所的部分他們會"},{"start":12407.99,"end":12409.99,"text":"覺得說那個是你原民會的事"},{"start":12409.99,"end":12411.99,"text":"他不會去造作"},{"start":12411.44,"end":12413.44,"text":"我們實務上"},{"start":12413.44,"end":12415.44,"text":"我要跟委員拜託"},{"start":12415.44,"end":12417.44,"text":"因為這個部分不是規定在法律條文裡面"},{"start":12420.13,"end":12422.13,"text":"不是我來說我補充一下"},{"start":12422.13,"end":12424.13,"text":"補充一下"},{"start":12424.87,"end":12426.87,"text":"他剛講的現在就是"},{"start":12428.57,"end":12430.57,"text":"現在就是了"},{"start":12431.22,"end":12433.22,"text":"第一個"},{"start":12432.86,"end":12436.86,"text":"原住民保留地的管理機關就是你們"},{"start":12437.73,"end":12439.73,"text":"如果就法律的主管機關"},{"start":12439.73,"end":12441.73,"text":"原住民保留地法律主管也是你們"},{"start":12443.57,"end":12445.57,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12444.33,"end":12446.33,"text":"這本來就是你們也可以"},{"start":12447.37,"end":12449.37,"text":"好這"},{"start":12448.85,"end":12450.85,"text":"這個怎麼樣去把它讓地方政府"},{"start":12450.85,"end":12452.85,"text":"能夠去"},{"start":12452.85,"end":12454.85,"text":"去執行所以你們可以"},{"start":12454.85,"end":12456.85,"text":"在那個辦法裡面去做"},{"start":12456.85,"end":12458.85,"text":"去做授權"},{"start":12458.4,"end":12460.4,"text":"我真的是誠實的"},{"start":12460.4,"end":12462.4,"text":"如果說在我們的"},{"start":12462.4,"end":12464.4,"text":"最後一個項次授權"},{"start":12464.4,"end":12466.4,"text":"的規定的部分有關於全責"},{"start":12466.4,"end":12468.4,"text":"分工的部分去"},{"start":12468.4,"end":12470.4,"text":"明定一個授權的項次"},{"start":12470.4,"end":12472.4,"text":"這個我沒意見"},{"start":12472.4,"end":12474.4,"text":"但是我覺得如果說要"},{"start":12474.4,"end":12476.4,"text":"在那個修正"},{"start":12476.4,"end":12478.4,"text":"動議的第七項的部分"},{"start":12478.4,"end":12480.4,"text":"後段文字說要由我們原住民"},{"start":12480.4,"end":12482.4,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":12484.43,"end":12486.43,"text":"草裡的"},{"start":12485.61,"end":12487.61,"text":"我建議一下陳明基的問題"},{"start":12487.61,"end":12489.61,"text":"我先問一下"},{"start":12489.61,"end":12491.61,"text":"請問目前我們有沒有原住民保留地"},{"start":12491.61,"end":12493.61,"text":"不屬於三波地的範圍"},{"start":12493.61,"end":12495.61,"text":"的範圍有沒有"},{"start":12495.61,"end":12497.61,"text":"有"},{"start":12496.83,"end":12498.83,"text":"所以我們要了解"},{"start":12498.83,"end":12500.83,"text":"現在我們在談的是三波地"},{"start":12500.83,"end":12502.83,"text":"在三波地當中第三次區"},{"start":12502.83,"end":12504.83,"text":"要處理的時候三波地當中屬於原保"},{"start":12504.83,"end":12506.83,"text":"地的部分怎麼處理但是整"},{"start":12506.83,"end":12508.83,"text":"體的原住民保留地他不限定"},{"start":12508.83,"end":12510.83,"text":"在三波地他也有會發生"},{"start":12510.83,"end":12512.83,"text":"建民登記的情況是也會發生"},{"start":12512.83,"end":12514.83,"text":"說國家要使用的時候"},{"start":12514.83,"end":12516.83,"text":"要什麼程序使用至於說"},{"start":12516.83,"end":12518.83,"text":"部落是不是未來可以明定"},{"start":12518.83,"end":12520.83,"text":"在承受人"},{"start":12520.83,"end":12522.83,"text":"的一個當中那還要有內政"},{"start":12522.83,"end":12524.83,"text":"部地政單位去表達"},{"start":12524.83,"end":12526.83,"text":"我是建議我們原保地"},{"start":12526.83,"end":12528.83,"text":"總體的問題我覺得"},{"start":12529.35,"end":12531.35,"text":"政天台委員來講這個"},{"start":12531.35,"end":12533.35,"text":"讓我們大家都了解很重要"},{"start":12533.35,"end":12535.35,"text":"但是因為我們今天經濟委員會審查的標"},{"start":12535.35,"end":12537.35,"text":"地是三波地"},{"start":12537.35,"end":12539.35,"text":"三波地當中在37條特別提到"},{"start":12539.35,"end":12541.35,"text":"原保地的部分他是不是"},{"start":12541.35,"end":12543.35,"text":"在這邊修法的效果要含色到"},{"start":12543.35,"end":12545.35,"text":"所有的原保地我是覺得"},{"start":12545.35,"end":12547.35,"text":"因是不是請原民會"},{"start":12547.35,"end":12549.35,"text":"說明一下還有沒有全部"},{"start":12549.35,"end":12551.35,"text":"原住民保留地的上位的"},{"start":12551.35,"end":12553.35,"text":"管理的法令我們在那個"},{"start":12553.35,"end":12555.35,"text":"法令上來處理包括部落"},{"start":12555.35,"end":12557.35,"text":"包括建民登記這個問題"},{"start":12557.35,"end":12559.35,"text":"因為目前我們要取得的你看37條"},{"start":12559.35,"end":12561.35,"text":"怎麼講"},{"start":12560.53,"end":12562.53,"text":"37條他只有解"},{"start":12562.53,"end":12564.53,"text":"三波地範圍內的原住民保留地"},{"start":12564.53,"end":12566.53,"text":"我們在這裡只是處理"},{"start":12566.53,"end":12568.53,"text":"三波地範圍內的原住民保留地"},{"start":12568.53,"end":12570.53,"text":"而且他是強調說"},{"start":12570.53,"end":12572.53,"text":"為了要保障原住民的權利"},{"start":12572.53,"end":12574.53,"text":"所以37條他基本上"},{"start":12574.53,"end":12576.53,"text":"是在三波地當中保障"},{"start":12576.53,"end":12578.53,"text":"原住民保留地的一個"},{"start":12578.53,"end":12580.53,"text":"權利"},{"start":12579.63,"end":12581.63,"text":"那至於說原住民保留地整體政策"},{"start":12581.63,"end":12583.63,"text":"要怎麼處理部落可不可以"},{"start":12583.63,"end":12585.63,"text":"成為一個承受人之一"},{"start":12585.63,"end":12587.63,"text":"我們是不是請說明一下原民會"},{"start":12587.63,"end":12589.63,"text":"說明還有沒有哪些法令我們要一併"},{"start":12589.63,"end":12591.63,"text":"要去處理"},{"start":12593.19,"end":12595.19,"text":"沒關係那個我先跟"},{"start":12595.19,"end":12597.19,"text":"中委報告一下的確"},{"start":12597.19,"end":12599.19,"text":"剛剛委員提到一個"},{"start":12599.19,"end":12601.19,"text":"關鍵的重點就是說"},{"start":12601.19,"end":12603.19,"text":"因為現行"},{"start":12603.19,"end":12605.19,"text":"法制的部分的確"},{"start":12605.19,"end":12607.19,"text":"我們有關於原住民"},{"start":12607.19,"end":12609.19,"text":"保留地管理的一個最高法規"},{"start":12609.19,"end":12611.19,"text":"接的確是現在依附在三波地"},{"start":12611.19,"end":12613.19,"text":"保留利用條例那剛剛委員提到"},{"start":12613.19,"end":12615.19,"text":"一個重點就是說因為三波地保留"},{"start":12615.19,"end":12617.19,"text":"利用條例要處理的部分就是三波地範圍"},{"start":12617.19,"end":12619.19,"text":"但實務上"},{"start":12619.19,"end":12621.19,"text":"實務上的部分就是說"},{"start":12621.19,"end":12623.19,"text":"我們在不限於"},{"start":12623.19,"end":12625.19,"text":"三波地範圍"},{"start":12625.19,"end":12627.19,"text":"因為那個三保條例"},{"start":12627.19,"end":12629.19,"text":"三十七條那個最後一項"},{"start":12629.19,"end":12631.19,"text":"他有授權我們"},{"start":12632.22,"end":12634.22,"text":"授權我們原民會去定原住民保留地"},{"start":12634.22,"end":12636.22,"text":"開放管理辦法所以我們就是"},{"start":12636.22,"end":12638.22,"text":"因為依據這個授權的部分"},{"start":12638.22,"end":12640.22,"text":"進一步去處理不管是三波地"},{"start":12640.22,"end":12642.22,"text":"範圍之內或者是非三波地"},{"start":12642.22,"end":12644.22,"text":"範圍之內的部分我們一併去做"},{"start":12644.22,"end":12646.22,"text":"一個處理因為這個是繼續保障"},{"start":12646.22,"end":12648.22,"text":"原住民權益當然就是說"},{"start":12648.22,"end":12650.22,"text":"我跟中委很報告就是說我們從"},{"start":12650.22,"end":12652.22,"text":"製度面去解釋這個問題的話"},{"start":12652.22,"end":12654.22,"text":"我們已經擬據了原住民保留地"},{"start":12654.22,"end":12656.22,"text":"回復及權利管理"},{"start":12656.22,"end":12658.22,"text":"條例的部分暴行這件事情"},{"start":12658.22,"end":12660.22,"text":"我們也是希望從三保條例這邊脫"},{"start":12660.22,"end":12662.22,"text":"勾去處理不要依附在三保條例"},{"start":12662.22,"end":12664.22,"text":"裡面這個才是一個根本的解決"},{"start":12664.22,"end":12666.22,"text":"製造"},{"start":12665.88,"end":12667.88,"text":"好"},{"start":12667.1,"end":12669.1,"text":"我來講歷史"},{"start":12669.21,"end":12671.21,"text":"簡單的我很簡約"},{"start":12672.58,"end":12674.58,"text":"很簡約"},{"start":12674.34,"end":12676.34,"text":"第一開始"},{"start":12675.87,"end":12677.87,"text":"台安省政府"},{"start":12677.43,"end":12679.43,"text":"電腦一個3D保留地管理辦法"},{"start":12680.43,"end":12682.43,"text":"然後後來"},{"start":12681.85,"end":12683.85,"text":"這個提高了中央的位階"},{"start":12683.85,"end":12685.85,"text":"內政部"},{"start":12686.44,"end":12688.44,"text":"那後來因為要有法律的"},{"start":12689.22,"end":12691.22,"text":"一致"},{"start":12690.23,"end":12692.23,"text":"一開始沒有法律的一致了"},{"start":12692.44,"end":12694.44,"text":"然後才"},{"start":12694.44,"end":12696.44,"text":"到底要依附在哪裡"},{"start":12696.24,"end":12698.24,"text":"所以當時的政府"},{"start":12698.23,"end":12700.23,"text":"把它依附在這個"},{"start":12700.23,"end":12702.23,"text":"三保地保留地條例上七條"},{"start":12702.84,"end":12704.84,"text":"然後你會看到三十七條在負責那邊"},{"start":12706.13,"end":12708.13,"text":"不是在前面"},{"start":12708.29,"end":12710.29,"text":"所以現在的實施"},{"start":12711.19,"end":12713.19,"text":"好"},{"start":12711.97,"end":12713.97,"text":"總委現在的管理辦法"},{"start":12714.74,"end":12716.74,"text":"三十七條授權定的管理辦法"},{"start":12719.21,"end":12721.21,"text":"包含三保地以外的原准保留地"},{"start":12722.72,"end":12724.72,"text":"所以"},{"start":12724.72,"end":12726.72,"text":"應該要回歸到原住民族基本法"},{"start":12730.26,"end":12732.26,"text":"原住民族基本法明訂"},{"start":12732.26,"end":12734.26,"text":"要制定原住民族土地及海法"},{"start":12737.55,"end":12739.55,"text":"但是過去的"},{"start":12739.54,"end":12741.54,"text":"八年甚至現在十年"},{"start":12742.44,"end":12744.44,"text":"延民會啊延民會"},{"start":12744.44,"end":12746.44,"text":"連送到行政院都沒有"},{"start":12747.03,"end":12749.03,"text":"都沒有把原住民族土地及海法"},{"start":12750.07,"end":12752.07,"text":"都沒有送到"},{"start":12752.07,"end":12754.07,"text":"雖然我們蔡總統說"},{"start":12753.82,"end":12755.82,"text":"我們也很快的會吧"},{"start":12755.91,"end":12757.91,"text":"原住民族土地及海法"},{"start":12758.95,"end":12760.95,"text":"送到立法院"},{"start":12761.51,"end":12763.51,"text":"已經超過十年沒有送"},{"start":12763.47,"end":12765.47,"text":"而且延民會連送都沒有送"},{"start":12766.69,"end":12768.69,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":12768.69,"end":12770.69,"text":"原住民保留地什麼條例"},{"start":12770.69,"end":12772.69,"text":"那個根本就是不符合原住民族基本法"},{"start":12772.69,"end":12774.69,"text":"所以我們只好"},{"start":12774.69,"end":12776.69,"text":"我們只好不得不"},{"start":12777.53,"end":12779.53,"text":"繼續依附在這個"},{"start":12779.53,"end":12781.53,"text":"三保地保留地用條例"},{"start":12781.53,"end":12783.53,"text":"三十七條"},{"start":12783.53,"end":12785.53,"text":"是這樣的一個原由"},{"start":12785.53,"end":12787.53,"text":"做說明"},{"start":12786.83,"end":12788.83,"text":"各位報告就是說"},{"start":12788.83,"end":12790.83,"text":"我們現在手上"},{"start":12790.83,"end":12792.83,"text":"我們有一個三十七條建議的修正"},{"start":12792.83,"end":12794.83,"text":"的版本"},{"start":12794.83,"end":12796.83,"text":"那紅字的部分是我們"},{"start":12796.83,"end":12798.83,"text":"建議修正的一些文字"},{"start":12798.83,"end":12800.83,"text":"那我跟各位"},{"start":12800.83,"end":12802.83,"text":"報告一下就是說有關於第二項的部分"},{"start":12802.83,"end":12804.83,"text":"我們紅字的部分就是增加"},{"start":12804.83,"end":12806.83,"text":"就是說今天如果"},{"start":12806.83,"end":12808.83,"text":"原保地如果移轉"},{"start":12808.83,"end":12810.83,"text":"如果有違反這種情形的話"},{"start":12810.83,"end":12812.83,"text":"它的法律效果就是無效"},{"start":12812.83,"end":12814.83,"text":"這個部分就是建民登記的法律效果"},{"start":12814.83,"end":12816.83,"text":"所以這個部分我們有參採"},{"start":12816.83,"end":12818.83,"text":"那個我們政委員的意見"},{"start":12818.83,"end":12820.83,"text":"那第三項跟第四項第五項"},{"start":12820.83,"end":12822.83,"text":"的部分就是政委員"},{"start":12822.83,"end":12824.83,"text":"所希望就是我們要"},{"start":12824.83,"end":12826.83,"text":"提出一些去杜絕"},{"start":12826.83,"end":12828.83,"text":"建民登記的一些具體方法"},{"start":12828.83,"end":12830.83,"text":"那這個部分我們很"},{"start":12830.83,"end":12832.83,"text":"我們原理會很負責任的就是說"},{"start":12832.83,"end":12834.83,"text":"私有原表地"},{"start":12834.83,"end":12836.83,"text":"他的如果說移轉他事先"},{"start":12836.83,"end":12838.83,"text":"要透過拒絕的身份去拒絕"},{"start":12838.83,"end":12840.83,"text":"他將來這個所有權的移轉"},{"start":12840.83,"end":12842.83,"text":"他不會移轉給非原住民"},{"start":12842.83,"end":12844.83,"text":"這是第三項"},{"start":12844.83,"end":12846.83,"text":"那第四項的部分我們要賦予"},{"start":12846.83,"end":12848.83,"text":"公所的部分有一個事前"},{"start":12848.83,"end":12850.83,"text":"查核的這樣子的一個"},{"start":12850.83,"end":12852.83,"text":"權限讓他們可以在事前"},{"start":12852.83,"end":12854.83,"text":"他辦理那個主任"},{"start":12854.83,"end":12856.83,"text":"要辦理所有權益的登記者說他做一個"},{"start":12856.83,"end":12858.83,"text":"事先的一個審查"},{"start":12858.83,"end":12860.83,"text":"然後第五項的部分如果說"},{"start":12860.83,"end":12862.83,"text":"如果經行政調查"},{"start":12862.83,"end":12864.83,"text":"是確定是有這種"},{"start":12864.83,"end":12866.83,"text":"所謂建民登記的情形的話"},{"start":12866.83,"end":12868.83,"text":"那我們主管機關的部分"},{"start":12868.83,"end":12870.83,"text":"可以不經過向"},{"start":12870.83,"end":12872.83,"text":"法院訴請圖銷登記"},{"start":12872.83,"end":12874.83,"text":"就可以把事前的部分"},{"start":12874.83,"end":12876.83,"text":"就可以駁回所有權"},{"start":12876.83,"end":12878.83,"text":"移轉登記的行政處分"},{"start":12878.83,"end":12880.83,"text":"那如果已經查出來他確實有違反"},{"start":12880.83,"end":12882.83,"text":"拒絕這種情形的話"},{"start":12882.83,"end":12884.83,"text":"我們會有被廢止原來的"},{"start":12884.83,"end":12886.83,"text":"核准的這樣子"},{"start":12886.83,"end":12888.83,"text":"移轉登記的一個處分並且喊起登機官"},{"start":12888.83,"end":12890.83,"text":"那個那個圖銷"},{"start":12890.83,"end":12892.83,"text":"他所有權移轉登記的這個部分"},{"start":12892.83,"end":12894.83,"text":"我們覺得好這個部分是"},{"start":12894.83,"end":12896.83,"text":"雖然這個是"},{"start":12896.83,"end":12898.83,"text":"失權的一個爭議但是我們原民"},{"start":12898.83,"end":12900.83,"text":"會從公權力建議"},{"start":12900.83,"end":12902.83,"text":"那個介入的一個角度"},{"start":12902.83,"end":12904.83,"text":"來去做一個事前審核"},{"start":12904.83,"end":12906.83,"text":"跟事後的一個查核"},{"start":12906.83,"end":12908.83,"text":"的這樣子一個動作"},{"start":12908.83,"end":12910.83,"text":"我相信我們提出來的這個版本"},{"start":12910.83,"end":12912.83,"text":"第一個是符合那個我們"},{"start":12912.83,"end":12914.83,"text":"政委員他的一個意旨"},{"start":12914.83,"end":12916.83,"text":"那第二個就是說我們也是"},{"start":12916.83,"end":12918.83,"text":"很負責任的就是把這樣子"},{"start":12918.83,"end":12920.83,"text":"的一個行政部門因"},{"start":12920.83,"end":12922.83,"text":"介入調查他可以行使"},{"start":12922.83,"end":12924.83,"text":"公權力的依據明定在法律條文"},{"start":12924.83,"end":12926.83,"text":"裡面讓我們縣市"},{"start":12926.83,"end":12928.83,"text":"政府跟公所他在進行行政查核"},{"start":12928.83,"end":12930.83,"text":"的時候他有一個權限"},{"start":12930.83,"end":12932.83,"text":"可以去做一個處理"},{"start":12932.83,"end":12934.83,"text":"然後在第九項那個部分"},{"start":12934.83,"end":12936.83,"text":"我想這個部分剛剛那個我已經"},{"start":12936.83,"end":12938.83,"text":"跟政委員報告過我們也是依照"},{"start":12938.83,"end":12940.83,"text":"政委員的一些建議去做一個"},{"start":12940.83,"end":12942.83,"text":"後段文字的一個調整那剛剛"},{"start":12942.83,"end":12944.83,"text":"委員也這個部分也是說OK我想這個"},{"start":12944.83,"end":12946.83,"text":"部分我們應該是有共識的以上"},{"start":12952.49,"end":12954.49,"text":"我有意見啦"},{"start":12954.49,"end":12956.49,"text":"請問處長你這個用心良苦我覺得"},{"start":12956.49,"end":12958.49,"text":"這個第三項第四項第五項增加在"},{"start":12958.49,"end":12960.49,"text":"第二項之後原定的第三項"},{"start":12960.49,"end":12962.49,"text":"之前這裡是在處理"},{"start":12962.49,"end":12964.49,"text":"所有元寶地的建明登記"},{"start":12964.49,"end":12966.49,"text":"是處理屬於"},{"start":12966.49,"end":12968.49,"text":"山坡地範圍內的元寶地"},{"start":12968.49,"end":12970.49,"text":"全部"},{"start":12970.53,"end":12972.53,"text":"我問你"},{"start":12972.53,"end":12974.53,"text":"如果不是山坡地的"},{"start":12974.53,"end":12976.53,"text":"原住民保留地我們要"},{"start":12976.53,"end":12978.53,"text":"來適用山坡地保育"},{"start":12978.53,"end":12980.53,"text":"條例我強調一個事情"},{"start":12980.53,"end":12982.53,"text":"我們屏東有"},{"start":12982.53,"end":12984.53,"text":"也不要說是全台灣"},{"start":12984.53,"end":12986.53,"text":"相當多的原住民有八個原住民"},{"start":12986.53,"end":12988.53,"text":"鄉那這些原住民鄉"},{"start":12988.53,"end":12990.53,"text":"他們的地有很多"},{"start":12990.53,"end":12992.53,"text":"它的坡度其實並"},{"start":12992.53,"end":12994.53,"text":"不是算山坡"},{"start":12994.53,"end":12996.53,"text":"大家不要以為原保地一定是"},{"start":12996.53,"end":12998.53,"text":"在有坡度達到山坡"},{"start":12998.53,"end":13000.53,"text":"地認定的地方"},{"start":13000.53,"end":13002.53,"text":"但是因為幾乎他們"},{"start":13002.53,"end":13004.53,"text":"幾乎就是被認定在"},{"start":13004.24,"end":13006.24,"text":"山坡地內反而造成"},{"start":13006.24,"end":13008.24,"text":"在原鄉地區其實並"},{"start":13008.24,"end":13010.24,"text":"沒有屬於山坡地地形的"},{"start":13010.24,"end":13012.24,"text":"土地它在使用"},{"start":13012.24,"end":13014.24,"text":"上會受到我們山坡地保育"},{"start":13014.24,"end":13016.24,"text":"條例限制我想這點處理"},{"start":13016.24,"end":13018.24,"text":"很清楚是那我們過去一直努力"},{"start":13018.24,"end":13020.24,"text":"的就是希望讓這些原保"},{"start":13020.24,"end":13022.24,"text":"地它能夠"},{"start":13022.24,"end":13024.24,"text":"不要那麼全部大範圍的"},{"start":13024.24,"end":13026.24,"text":"蓋花性的涵蓋在山坡地"},{"start":13026.24,"end":13028.24,"text":"當中可以不用去適用"},{"start":13028.24,"end":13030.24,"text":"山坡地保育條例才能進行"},{"start":13030.24,"end":13032.24,"text":"它適當的開發行為"},{"start":13032.24,"end":13034.24,"text":"是那你現在又"},{"start":13034.24,"end":13036.24,"text":"因為剛鄭文遠講的是一個歷史"},{"start":13036.24,"end":13038.24,"text":"的一個過程嘛"},{"start":13038.24,"end":13040.24,"text":"當時沒有法所以依附在山坡地保育"},{"start":13040.24,"end":13042.24,"text":"條例是那因為依附在山坡地"},{"start":13042.24,"end":13044.24,"text":"保育條例原保原保地"},{"start":13044.24,"end":13046.24,"text":"原住民保留地就有一個管理"},{"start":13046.24,"end":13048.24,"text":"的一個辦法是但是你這樣"},{"start":13048.24,"end":13050.24,"text":"就逼著所有的原住民的保留"},{"start":13050.24,"end":13052.24,"text":"地他都必須被認定"},{"start":13052.24,"end":13054.24,"text":"是山坡地後他才能夠"},{"start":13054.24,"end":13056.24,"text":"得到這個釋法性上的適用"},{"start":13056.24,"end":13058.24,"text":"但是你去適用山坡地保育"},{"start":13058.24,"end":13060.24,"text":"條例不見得對於我們"},{"start":13060.24,"end":13062.24,"text":"我們原保地當中非屬於山坡地"},{"start":13062.24,"end":13064.24,"text":"性質的因為山坡地保育"},{"start":13064.24,"end":13066.24,"text":"條例對土地的使用有相當嚴格的"},{"start":13066.24,"end":13068.24,"text":"規範是那這個過去我們很多"},{"start":13068.24,"end":13070.24,"text":"原住民他的土地呢其實"},{"start":13070.24,"end":13072.24,"text":"那個情況我們去看了是平坦"},{"start":13072.24,"end":13074.24,"text":"的可是他就是因為山坡地"},{"start":13074.24,"end":13076.24,"text":"保育條例才能適用所以他被"},{"start":13076.24,"end":13078.24,"text":"被勉強的被認被"},{"start":13078.24,"end":13080.24,"text":"被山坡地了啦"},{"start":13080.24,"end":13082.24,"text":"被山坡地的我們還希望趕快"},{"start":13082.24,"end":13084.24,"text":"能夠拉出來所以我是個人"},{"start":13084.24,"end":13086.24,"text":"是傾向說行政院這邊要趕快"},{"start":13086.24,"end":13088.24,"text":"的就所有的原保地"},{"start":13088.24,"end":13090.24,"text":"把包括建民登記的部分能夠含色"},{"start":13090.24,"end":13092.24,"text":"進去是那這樣的話我們今天"},{"start":13092.24,"end":13094.24,"text":"修山坡地保育條例未來只有"},{"start":13094.24,"end":13096.24,"text":"這個地方有建民登記的處理那麼變成"},{"start":13096.24,"end":13098.24,"text":"原住民他只要處理說我要去"},{"start":13098.24,"end":13100.24,"text":"主張我的原保地要適用這個建民登記"},{"start":13100.24,"end":13102.24,"text":"我就必須說我這個是山坡地"},{"start":13102.24,"end":13104.24,"text":"我才能來適用事實上"},{"start":13104.24,"end":13106.24,"text":"一個原住民保留地他的使用開"},{"start":13106.24,"end":13108.24,"text":"發行為有時候會因為"},{"start":13108.24,"end":13110.24,"text":"在山坡地的條例較"},{"start":13110.24,"end":13112.24,"text":"有利是我們適用之有"},{"start":13112.24,"end":13114.24,"text":"時候是適用山坡地保育條例較為"},{"start":13114.24,"end":13116.24,"text":"不利我們希望不要適用之"},{"start":13116.24,"end":13118.24,"text":"這樣的情況你們在法治法有沒有想過"},{"start":13118.24,"end":13120.24,"text":"有跟委員報告其實"},{"start":13120.24,"end":13122.24,"text":"剛委員提示的那個"},{"start":13122.24,"end":13124.24,"text":"部分就是我們原保地的"},{"start":13124.24,"end":13126.24,"text":"範圍其實本來就不適用於山坡地範圍"},{"start":13126.24,"end":13128.24,"text":"範圍之內所以跟委員報告"},{"start":13128.24,"end":13130.24,"text":"其實我們現在剛委員我們"},{"start":13130.24,"end":13132.24,"text":"給你那些修正條文的建議文字"},{"start":13132.24,"end":13134.24,"text":"第三項到第五項的那個部分其實"},{"start":13134.24,"end":13136.24,"text":"就是從我們原保地"},{"start":13136.24,"end":13138.24,"text":"的條例裡面的第13"},{"start":13138.24,"end":13140.24,"text":"條把它移列過來"},{"start":13140.24,"end":13142.24,"text":"到山坡條例37"},{"start":13142.24,"end":13144.24,"text":"條那因為我跟"},{"start":13144.24,"end":13146.24,"text":"我跟委員報告因為那個"},{"start":13146.24,"end":13148.24,"text":"那你們這個條文行政院這三個項目都看過了嗎"},{"start":13148.24,"end":13150.24,"text":"目前是還沒有審議"},{"start":13150.24,"end":13152.24,"text":"但是我要澄清一點就是說"},{"start":13152.24,"end":13154.24,"text":"我要澄清一點就是說因為我們山坡"},{"start":13154.24,"end":13156.24,"text":"我們那個原保原住民保地"},{"start":13156.24,"end":13158.24,"text":"權利及回復及管理利用"},{"start":13158.24,"end":13160.24,"text":"條例的部分其實我們在111"},{"start":13160.24,"end":13162.24,"text":"年已經報國行政院而且行政院"},{"start":13162.24,"end":13164.24,"text":"審議已經報到立法院"},{"start":13164.24,"end":13166.24,"text":"後來因為屆期不續審所以就沒有繼續審"},{"start":13166.24,"end":13168.24,"text":"那我們去年"},{"start":13168.24,"end":13170.24,"text":"去年其實已經"},{"start":13170.24,"end":13172.24,"text":"已經有曾經報院過一次不是完全"},{"start":13172.24,"end":13174.24,"text":"在111年就已經"},{"start":13174.24,"end":13176.24,"text":"行政院審議過然後也報到"},{"start":13176.24,"end":13178.24,"text":"立法院來"},{"start":13178.24,"end":13180.24,"text":"那如果當年報院的那個"},{"start":13180.24,"end":13182.24,"text":"版本在哪個委員會審議"},{"start":13182.24,"end":13184.24,"text":"內政委員會"},{"start":13184.24,"end":13186.24,"text":"對嘛主席"},{"start":13185.68,"end":13187.68,"text":"對對對"},{"start":13187.68,"end":13189.68,"text":"我們是在強調其實內政委員會"},{"start":13189.68,"end":13191.68,"text":"跟經濟委員會他的設置的"},{"start":13191.68,"end":13193.68,"text":"主管的"},{"start":13193.68,"end":13195.68,"text":"機關涵蓋範圍不同"},{"start":13195.68,"end":13197.68,"text":"今天我們今天來我們在談"},{"start":13197.68,"end":13199.68,"text":"經濟委員會找來這些部會是以農業"},{"start":13199.68,"end":13201.68,"text":"被為主但是今天涉及到"},{"start":13201.68,"end":13203.68,"text":"原保地的部分不會只有原民會"},{"start":13204.58,"end":13206.58,"text":"在內政委員會還有其他的部會"},{"start":13206.58,"end":13208.58,"text":"內政部他也要參與"},{"start":13208.58,"end":13210.58,"text":"所以今天我們在"},{"start":13210.58,"end":13212.58,"text":"經濟委員會審一個未來"},{"start":13212.58,"end":13214.58,"text":"會在所謂的原保地的"},{"start":13214.58,"end":13216.58,"text":"相關的法案"},{"start":13216.58,"end":13218.58,"text":"如果說今天行政院那個版本"},{"start":13218.58,"end":13220.58,"text":"送出來了會變成怎樣"},{"start":13220.67,"end":13222.67,"text":"內政委員會審那個版本"},{"start":13222.67,"end":13224.67,"text":"今天我們的"},{"start":13223.92,"end":13225.92,"text":"三波地保育條例審這個版本"},{"start":13225.92,"end":13227.92,"text":"雖然這中間內容是相同的"},{"start":13227.92,"end":13229.92,"text":"但是他會是連動所以我是覺得"},{"start":13229.92,"end":13231.92,"text":"我可以體會政委員我們非常的"},{"start":13231.92,"end":13233.92,"text":"急迫但是要考慮到"},{"start":13233.92,"end":13235.92,"text":"剛剛部落那個事情我是稍微保留"},{"start":13235.92,"end":13237.92,"text":"因為部落這個事情到底"},{"start":13237.92,"end":13239.92,"text":"能不能作為一個土地的"},{"start":13239.92,"end":13241.92,"text":"登記的一個資格"},{"start":13241.92,"end":13243.92,"text":"這還是要回歸到內政委員會"},{"start":13243.92,"end":13245.92,"text":"的相關土地法令"},{"start":13245.92,"end":13247.92,"text":"所以我們想處理原保地"},{"start":13247.92,"end":13249.92,"text":"還是要處理三波地保育條例"},{"start":13249.92,"end":13251.92,"text":"這個要分清楚所以我是覺得"},{"start":13251.92,"end":13253.92,"text":"因為時間大家也"},{"start":13253.92,"end":13255.92,"text":"聽了政委員說明我們在"},{"start":13255.92,"end":13257.92,"text":"情理上都支持"},{"start":13257.92,"end":13259.92,"text":"但在法治上要完備不然我會擔心說"},{"start":13259.92,"end":13261.92,"text":"這個通過去了我們屏東的原住民朋友"},{"start":13261.92,"end":13263.92,"text":"他說那"},{"start":13263.92,"end":13265.92,"text":"我只有在三波地裡面才可以這樣子"},{"start":13265.92,"end":13267.92,"text":"做嗎"},{"start":13267.29,"end":13269.29,"text":"只有三波地裡面才可以適用這個規定嗎"},{"start":13269.29,"end":13271.29,"text":"那我是原保地那為什麼用原保地"},{"start":13271.29,"end":13273.29,"text":"全部含色範圍的東西來"},{"start":13273.29,"end":13275.29,"text":"保障我的權益所以我是"},{"start":13275.29,"end":13277.29,"text":"今天這個案子我們可以再討論"},{"start":13279.24,"end":13281.24,"text":"政委員"},{"start":13280.47,"end":13282.47,"text":"我說明一下"},{"start":13282.71,"end":13284.71,"text":"我們仔細看現行的條文"},{"start":13285.47,"end":13287.47,"text":"政委員"},{"start":13286.9,"end":13288.9,"text":"政委員你先看現行"},{"start":13288.9,"end":13290.9,"text":"不是"},{"start":13291.05,"end":13293.05,"text":"不是現行的條文你看第二項"},{"start":13293.05,"end":13295.05,"text":"現行的條文"},{"start":13296.03,"end":13298.03,"text":"現行的條文第二項"},{"start":13298.48,"end":13300.48,"text":"原住民豈得原住民保留第12個錢"},{"start":13300.48,"end":13302.48,"text":"如有遺傳"},{"start":13302.48,"end":13304.48,"text":"以原住民為限"},{"start":13305.48,"end":13307.48,"text":"所以"},{"start":13307.05,"end":13313.05,"text":"所以不是在三波地的原住民保留地也適用"},{"start":13313.63,"end":13315.63,"text":"這個是中華民國政府"},{"start":13316.72,"end":13318.72,"text":"我只能講說中華民國政府"},{"start":13318.72,"end":13320.72,"text":"沒有去重視只好依附在"},{"start":13320.72,"end":13322.72,"text":"這個三波地保留第6條"},{"start":13323.77,"end":13325.77,"text":"這是第1個第2個"},{"start":13325.95,"end":13327.95,"text":"為什麼行政院版本"},{"start":13329.24,"end":13331.24,"text":"在上個會期上個上一屆"},{"start":13332.24,"end":13334.24,"text":"上一屆有送來為什麼沒有辦法通過"},{"start":13335.92,"end":13337.92,"text":"第一個"},{"start":13337.34,"end":13339.34,"text":"他不符合原住民族基本法"},{"start":13340.22,"end":13342.22,"text":"這第一個"},{"start":13341.54,"end":13343.54,"text":"第二個"},{"start":13343.92,"end":13347.92,"text":"他比現在的原住民保留地管理辦法"},{"start":13348.71,"end":13350.71,"text":"包括所受權定的解釋"},{"start":13351.67,"end":13353.67,"text":"還不如"},{"start":13353.71,"end":13355.71,"text":"還不如"},{"start":13355.71,"end":13357.71,"text":"因此沒有通過"},{"start":13357.32,"end":13359.32,"text":"所以"},{"start":13360.41,"end":13362.41,"text":"第一個"},{"start":13361.69,"end":13363.69,"text":"就是建民登記"},{"start":13363.69,"end":13365.69,"text":"既然"},{"start":13364.54,"end":13366.54,"text":"最高行政法案已經判決了"},{"start":13366.54,"end":13368.54,"text":"我們就應該"},{"start":13368.56,"end":13370.56,"text":"要立法"},{"start":13370.3,"end":13372.3,"text":"第二個"},{"start":13371.78,"end":13373.78,"text":"就是我們"},{"start":13373.76,"end":13375.76,"text":"一直一直的受到很大的委屈"},{"start":13377.81,"end":13379.81,"text":"就是我們原住民保留地"},{"start":13380.88,"end":13382.88,"text":"要被徵收的時候"},{"start":13383.31,"end":13385.31,"text":"要被徵收的時候只能用"},{"start":13385.31,"end":13387.31,"text":"釋架旁邊又沒有釋架"},{"start":13388.74,"end":13390.74,"text":"沒有釋架的時候就"},{"start":13390.74,"end":13392.74,"text":"所以我們才會"},{"start":13392.66,"end":13394.66,"text":"公告限制加四成"},{"start":13395.36,"end":13397.36,"text":"如果有按照剛才研議會所提的"},{"start":13397.36,"end":13399.36,"text":"再增加那些文字"},{"start":13400.35,"end":13402.35,"text":"就可以"},{"start":13402.35,"end":13404.35,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":13404.05,"end":13406.05,"text":"是很重要很重要"},{"start":13406.05,"end":13408.05,"text":"因為這個部分定了之後"},{"start":13408.01,"end":13410.01,"text":"也不會只限"},{"start":13410.01,"end":13412.01,"text":"限於山坡地的原住民保留地"},{"start":13412.01,"end":13414.01,"text":"也包含"},{"start":13414.09,"end":13416.09,"text":"這個是不得不得"},{"start":13416.09,"end":13418.09,"text":"我知道就法制上"},{"start":13418.09,"end":13420.09,"text":"是這樣"},{"start":13420.75,"end":13422.75,"text":"因為已經實施幾十年了"},{"start":13422.75,"end":13424.75,"text":"我們現在"},{"start":13425.39,"end":13427.39,"text":"只能先修正這個不得不先修正這個"},{"start":13427.39,"end":13429.39,"text":"山坡地保留地條例"},{"start":13429.39,"end":13431.39,"text":"真的取掉"},{"start":13431.54,"end":13433.54,"text":"我最後問一下"},{"start":13433.54,"end":13435.54,"text":"其實原則上是支持"},{"start":13435.54,"end":13437.54,"text":"而且你這個寫的東西"},{"start":13437.54,"end":13439.54,"text":"我相信政天才委員看過"},{"start":13439.54,"end":13441.54,"text":"應該也沒什麼意見"},{"start":13441.54,"end":13443.54,"text":"因為我覺得你寫的"},{"start":13443.54,"end":13445.54,"text":"已經有傳達過我們法制的精神"},{"start":13445.54,"end":13447.54,"text":"那現在中嘉濱委員考慮的只是說"},{"start":13447.54,"end":13449.54,"text":"這樣子的話"},{"start":13449.54,"end":13451.54,"text":"會不會影響"},{"start":13451.54,"end":13453.54,"text":"讓那些沒有在山坡地"},{"start":13453.54,"end":13455.54,"text":"因為我看一下你的第二項"},{"start":13455.54,"end":13457.54,"text":"是已經有涵蓋了"},{"start":13458.1,"end":13460.1,"text":"我先講一下"},{"start":13460.1,"end":13462.1,"text":"我先回應一下剛才報告主席"},{"start":13462.1,"end":13464.1,"text":"報告政經委員"},{"start":13464.1,"end":13466.1,"text":"我們山坡地保育條例開宗明義第一章"},{"start":13466.1,"end":13468.1,"text":"總則第一條山坡地之保育"},{"start":13468.1,"end":13470.1,"text":"利用一本條例之規定"},{"start":13471.16,"end":13473.16,"text":"本條例未規定者"},{"start":13473.16,"end":13475.16,"text":"依其他法律之規定"},{"start":13475.16,"end":13477.16,"text":"如果說原保地在山坡地保育條例當中"},{"start":13477.16,"end":13479.16,"text":"沒有規範到"},{"start":13479.16,"end":13481.16,"text":"那他當然未來有更好更新"},{"start":13481.16,"end":13483.16,"text":"更優的法律他當然會從其他法律之規定"},{"start":13483.16,"end":13485.16,"text":"而且第二條本條例所生主管機關"},{"start":13485.16,"end":13487.16,"text":"在中央市行政院內"},{"start":13487.16,"end":13489.16,"text":"農業部"},{"start":13489.7,"end":13491.7,"text":"第二項有關山坡地的地震"},{"start":13493.08,"end":13495.08,"text":"及營建業務"},{"start":13495.08,"end":13497.08,"text":"由內政部匯同"},{"start":13497.08,"end":13499.08,"text":"國有山坡地自委託管理"},{"start":13499.08,"end":13501.08,"text":"由財政部匯同"},{"start":13501.08,"end":13503.08,"text":"都是匯同農業部"},{"start":13503.08,"end":13505.08,"text":"這裡面其實在第一條第二條當中"},{"start":13505.08,"end":13507.08,"text":"都很以現在的情況來講"},{"start":13507.08,"end":13509.08,"text":"我們很多山坡"},{"start":13509.08,"end":13511.08,"text":"很多原保地都在"},{"start":13511.08,"end":13513.08,"text":"很多原保地在山坡地"},{"start":13513.08,"end":13515.08,"text":"可是在這裡面原住民機關"},{"start":13515.08,"end":13517.08,"text":"卻沒有在這個法條的第一條"},{"start":13517.08,"end":13519.08,"text":"跟第二條當中"},{"start":13519.08,"end":13521.08,"text":"如果嚴格來講我們希望將原民會"},{"start":13521.08,"end":13523.08,"text":"的意見納進來是要在第一條第二條當中"},{"start":13523.08,"end":13525.08,"text":"去表達"},{"start":13525.08,"end":13527.08,"text":"那至於剛剛政委員所說的"},{"start":13527.08,"end":13529.08,"text":"也就這裡面寫的第九項"},{"start":13529.08,"end":13531.08,"text":"就是說公告限制加四成"},{"start":13531.08,"end":13533.08,"text":"那還重優"},{"start":13533.08,"end":13535.08,"text":"我想這個原則進程我都支持"},{"start":13535.08,"end":13537.08,"text":"如果今天我們只處理這一項"},{"start":13537.08,"end":13539.08,"text":"那也只限定在"},{"start":13539.08,"end":13541.08,"text":"山坡地當中的原住民保留地"},{"start":13541.08,"end":13543.08,"text":"在國家要使用的時候"},{"start":13543.08,"end":13545.08,"text":"他必須這樣子遵循這個完全支持"},{"start":13546.15,"end":13548.15,"text":"但是你說的建民登記這個部分"},{"start":13548.15,"end":13550.15,"text":"涉及到其他的非參坡地的原保地的部分"},{"start":13550.15,"end":13552.15,"text":"在法體例上"},{"start":13552.15,"end":13554.15,"text":"一個原我們的山坡地保育條例"},{"start":13554.15,"end":13556.15,"text":"去含設到一個由內政部主管的土地"},{"start":13559.55,"end":13561.55,"text":"去涉及到其他的主管機關的範圍"},{"start":13561.55,"end":13563.55,"text":"恐怕"},{"start":13563.55,"end":13565.55,"text":"今天"},{"start":13565.55,"end":13567.55,"text":"為什麼要經過行政院討論"},{"start":13567.55,"end":13569.55,"text":"我支持原民會趕快去爭取"},{"start":13569.55,"end":13571.55,"text":"把過去陳志永本院來的"},{"start":13571.55,"end":13573.55,"text":"再送進來"},{"start":13573.55,"end":13575.55,"text":"但是今天原民會也是一位處長來這裡"},{"start":13575.55,"end":13577.55,"text":"我不曉得這個回去今天處長"},{"start":13577.55,"end":13579.55,"text":"你講的話這些內容"},{"start":13579.55,"end":13581.55,"text":"回去曾志永主委"},{"start":13581.55,"end":13583.55,"text":"怎麼面對我們行政院的政委"},{"start":13583.55,"end":13585.55,"text":"現在哪一個政委在協調"},{"start":13585.55,"end":13587.55,"text":"我們你說的原住民保留地"},{"start":13587.55,"end":13589.55,"text":"陳時中"},{"start":13589.55,"end":13591.55,"text":"很好你想清楚"},{"start":13591.55,"end":13593.55,"text":"你想清楚你今天發言是代表原民會"},{"start":13593.55,"end":13595.55,"text":"那未來你們原民會主委"},{"start":13595.55,"end":13597.55,"text":"會在行政院被問到"},{"start":13597.55,"end":13599.55,"text":"那我們現在處理的原住民保留地的問題"},{"start":13599.55,"end":13601.55,"text":"那你現在在山坡地保育條例"},{"start":13601.55,"end":13603.55,"text":"處長說這直接移過來就好了"},{"start":13603.55,"end":13605.55,"text":"那未來我們在法條"},{"start":13605.55,"end":13607.55,"text":"的試用上那個還沒好就可以先走"},{"start":13607.55,"end":13611.55,"text":"那些位落在山坡地原住民保留地的人的權益"},{"start":13611.55,"end":13613.55,"text":"要如何去面對"},{"start":13613.55,"end":13615.55,"text":"我跟主席還有中委員"},{"start":13615.55,"end":13617.55,"text":"還有我們請問二委員報告"},{"start":13617.55,"end":13619.55,"text":"當然就是說就原民會的立場來看"},{"start":13619.55,"end":13621.55,"text":"我們會裡面當然就是說"},{"start":13621.55,"end":13623.55,"text":"優先考量就是說"},{"start":13623.55,"end":13625.55,"text":"我們要抱怨處理的那個原保地條例"},{"start":13625.55,"end":13627.55,"text":"那個部分因為光試用範圍"},{"start":13627.55,"end":13629.55,"text":"的部分就已經突破現在山坡地"},{"start":13629.55,"end":13631.55,"text":"保育利用條例的山坡地"},{"start":13631.55,"end":13633.55,"text":"範圍之內那個是一個"},{"start":13633.55,"end":13635.55,"text":"根本解決之道所以我們會"},{"start":13635.55,"end":13637.55,"text":"覺得如果說用我們的"},{"start":13637.55,"end":13639.55,"text":"專法原保條例的專法"},{"start":13639.55,"end":13641.55,"text":"去處理原保地他的一個試用"},{"start":13641.55,"end":13643.55,"text":"範圍的部分會比現在"},{"start":13643.55,"end":13645.55,"text":"現在只有光一條去處理是要妥自"},{"start":13645.55,"end":13647.55,"text":"所以這個是我們優先考"},{"start":13647.55,"end":13649.55,"text":"政策面優先考量的對象"},{"start":13649.55,"end":13651.55,"text":"處理的方式"},{"start":13651.55,"en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4364.5,"end":14366.5,"text":"我其實拍了"},{"start":14366.5,"end":14368.5,"text":"從這歷史文獻以後"},{"start":14368.5,"end":14370.5,"text":"讓張偉簽了之後"},{"start":14370.5,"end":14372.5,"text":"簽一下才拍"},{"start":14372.5,"end":14374.5,"text":"兩個不算數"},{"start":14375.27,"end":14377.27,"text":"你趕快簽一下,我們再拍"},{"start":14377.27,"end":14379.27,"text":"這個以後放在我們原住民博物館裡面"},{"start":14379.27,"end":14381.27,"text":"這天才委員的項目之下"},{"start":14383.88,"end":14385.88,"text":"太多了"},{"start":14385.88,"end":14387.88,"text":"你很多喔,你占空標餅喔"},{"start":14388.42,"end":14390.42,"text":"你這個爆戰功"},{"start":14394.1,"end":14396.1,"text":"還要拍嗎"},{"start":14396.1,"end":14398.1,"text":"不用"},{"start":14398.1,"end":14400.1,"text":"我就直接照委員證件走給三個"},{"start":14403.48,"end":14405.48,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14405.83,"end":14407.83,"text":"拜拜"},{"start":14408.36,"end":14410.36,"text":"好"},{"start":14411.3,"end":14413.3,"text":"打人"},{"start":14413.34,"end":14415.34,"text":"請先讀協商結論"},{"start":14437.88,"end":14439.88,"text":"再修正動議通過"},{"start":14439.88,"end":14441.88,"text":"第三組條,照委員洪義祥等四人所提"},{"start":14441.88,"end":14443.88,"text":"再修正動議通過"},{"start":14443.88,"end":14445.88,"text":"第三組條,照委員鄭天才等三人所提"},{"start":14445.88,"end":14447.88,"text":"再修正動議通過"},{"start":14447.88,"end":14449.88,"text":"宣傳筆"},{"start":14449.88,"end":14451.88,"text":"請問各位同仁,在剛剛宣讀協商結論通過"},{"start":14451.88,"end":14453.88,"text":"有無異議"},{"start":14453.06,"end":14455.06,"text":"沒有異議通過"},{"start":14455.41,"end":14457.41,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":14457.41,"end":14459.41,"text":"三波地保育利用條例部門條文相關"},{"start":14459.41,"end":14461.41,"text":"修正草案等報案審查玩具"},{"start":14461.41,"end":14463.41,"text":"並按凝聚審查報告提包"},{"start":14463.41,"end":14465.41,"text":"院會討論,不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":14465.41,"end":14467.41,"text":"院會討論時"},{"start":14467.41,"end":14469.41,"text":"有本席說明,審查通過之條文"},{"start":14469.41,"end":14471.41,"text":"相關法制用以授權主席及"},{"start":14471.41,"end":14473.41,"text":"議事人員處理"},{"start":14473.41,"end":14475.41,"text":"本日所列議程處理"},{"start":14475.41,"end":14477.41,"text":"玩具,現在上會"},{"start":14477.41,"end":14479.41,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":14483.81,"end":14485.81,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":14484.86,"end":14486.86,"text":"明天的明天就有啦"},{"start":14489.72,"end":14491.72,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}