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"start":2513.73,"end":2517.81,"text":"其肯職務工作務施工材料"},{"start":2517.81,"end":2519.49,"text":"及所使用之機具"},{"start":2519.49,"end":2522.65,"text":"不問屬於犯罪行為人與否"},{"start":2522.65,"end":2523.37,"text":"沒收之"},{"start":2523.96,"end":2525.64,"text":"第35條"},{"start":2526.79,"end":2528.39,"text":"除第二項"},{"start":2529.37,"end":2531.45,"text":"前項各款情形之一"},{"start":2531.45,"end":2533.5299999999997,"text":"兼限其改正而不改正"},{"start":2533.5299999999997,"end":2536.0899999999997,"text":"或未依改正事項改正者"},{"start":2536.0899999999997,"end":2537.77,"text":"得按次分別處罰"},{"start":2537.77,"end":2539.41,"text":"至改正為止"},{"start":2539.41,"end":2541.5299999999997,"text":"並得令其提供"},{"start":2541.5299999999997,"end":2545.81,"text":"並沒入其設施及所使用之機具"},{"start":2545.81,"end":2548.37,"text":"並強制拆除並清除其工作務"},{"start":2548.37,"end":2550.0899999999997,"text":"所需費用除為"},{"start":2550.0899999999997,"end":2552.0499999999997,"text":"經同意擅自開發"},{"start":2552.0499999999997,"end":2553.45,"text":"經營使用者"},{"start":2553.45,"end":2555.49,"text":"由行為人負擔外"},{"start":2555.49,"end":2557.45,"text":"應由經營人使用人"},{"start":2557.49,"end":2560.33,"text":"或所有人負擔之"},{"start":2560.33,"end":2562.81,"text":"於同台灣民眾黨團提案"},{"start":2563.44,"end":2564.2000000000003,"text":"宣佈完畢"},{"start":2567.02,"end":2569.54,"text":"我們現在協商討論事項"},{"start":2569.54,"end":2572.38,"text":"與有關農業發展條例部分條文"},{"start":2572.38,"end":2574.42,"text":"相關修正草案"},{"start":2574.42,"end":2576.78,"text":"共有八個提案的版本"},{"start":2581.01,"end":2583.13,"text":"與本次會一併審查"},{"start":2583.72,"end":2586.24,"text":"我們先從第二條開始協商"},{"start":2586.24,"end":2587.7999999999997,"text":"先請農業部說明"},{"start":2597.02,"end":2597.78,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":2597.78,"end":2599.22,"text":"第二條的部分"},{"start":2599.22,"end":2602.38,"text":"是將原來的農業委員會改成農業部"},{"start":2602.38,"end":2604.3,"text":"我們同意委員的版本"},{"start":2606.81,"end":2608.0099999999998,"text":"我們審查結果"},{"start":2609.11,"end":2609.67,"text":"同意"},{"start":2611.02,"end":2612.18,"text":"交案通過"},{"start":2613.78,"end":2616.26,"text":"接下來我們進行第三條"},{"start":2617.5899999999997,"end":2619.19,"text":"第三條的部分"},{"start":2619.19,"end":2621.6299999999997,"text":"是針對有關於"},{"start":2621.6299999999997,"end":2624.35,"text":"委員所提到的天然災害的一個"},{"start":2624.35,"end":2627.31,"text":"在農業發展條例的一個定義"},{"start":2627.31,"end":2628.91,"text":"農業部的立場是"},{"start":2628.91,"end":2631.15,"text":"因為天然災害的種類在災防"},{"start":2631.69,"end":2634.61,"text":"災害防救法已經有明確的一個規定"},{"start":2634.61,"end":2636.53,"text":"那並沒有必要重複的規定"},{"start":2636.53,"end":2638.13,"text":"而且在重複的規定的時候"},{"start":2638.13,"end":2640.33,"text":"在司法性會有一些問題"},{"start":2640.33,"end":2642.73,"text":"那第二個部分就是委員所關切的"},{"start":2642.73,"end":2644.9700000000003,"text":"後續的相併從害的一個"},{"start":2646.58,"end":2647.6600000000003,"text":"影響的時候"},{"start":2647.6600000000003,"end":2650.6200000000003,"text":"那事實上在天然災害救助辦法裡面"},{"start":2650.6200000000003,"end":2652.7000000000003,"text":"如果說病狀害是屬於"},{"start":2652.7000000000003,"end":2655.7000000000003,"text":"因為天后異常引起全面性普遍性"},{"start":2655.7000000000003,"end":2657.7400000000002,"text":"跟一致性的損失的時候"},{"start":2657.7400000000002,"end":2659.9,"text":"那我們可以在天然災害裡面"},{"start":2659.9,"end":2662.58,"text":"用專案認定的方式來處理"},{"start":2662.58,"end":2664.78,"text":"所以也建議不予修正"},{"start":2664.78,"end":2666.9,"text":"那至於說野生動物"},{"start":2666.9,"end":2668.46,"text":"危害的種類"},{"start":2668.46,"end":2671.34,"text":"也把它納入定義的部分"},{"start":2672.87,"end":2674.95,"text":"上次我在委員會也報告"},{"start":2674.95,"end":2677.15,"text":"就是針對動物的這些"},{"start":2677.15,"end":2678.43,"text":"這些危害的部分"},{"start":2678.43,"end":2681.0699999999997,"text":"我們已經進行好"},{"start":2681.0699999999997,"end":2683.43,"text":"相關的可能的一些規劃"},{"start":2683.43,"end":2685.0299999999997,"text":"那我在這邊跟委員報告"},{"start":2685.0299999999997,"end":2687.47,"text":"就是我們立法完了以後"},{"start":2687.47,"end":2689.11,"text":"一定要可執行"},{"start":2689.11,"end":2690.87,"text":"那現在的侯害"},{"start":2690.87,"end":2693.71,"text":"最主要大家所關注的侯害的部分"},{"start":2693.71,"end":2695.0699999999997,"text":"那這兩個月來"},{"start":2695.0699999999997,"end":2697.43,"text":"我們還在找一個新的"},{"start":2697.43,"end":2698.5099999999998,"text":"有沒有更好的方法"},{"start":2698.5099999999998,"end":2701.0299999999997,"text":"因為當你沒有辦法去計算"},{"start":2701.07,"end":2702.63,"text":"它的災損的時候"},{"start":2702.63,"end":2705.7900000000004,"text":"還有它的一致性跟普遍性的時候"},{"start":2705.7900000000004,"end":2706.9900000000002,"text":"那很難"},{"start":2706.9900000000002,"end":2712.3500000000004,"text":"去因為法的要求而去做一個落實"},{"start":2712.3500000000004,"end":2713.3500000000004,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":2713.3500000000004,"end":2717.3900000000003,"text":"我們是建議說先不要修正"},{"start":2717.3900000000003,"end":2719.23,"text":"因為相關的野生動物"},{"start":2719.23,"end":2721.23,"text":"在清洗這個農田的時候"},{"start":2721.23,"end":2722.3500000000004,"text":"它的樣態非常多"},{"start":2722.3500000000004,"end":2724.7900000000004,"text":"那它的樣態也必定是單一因子"},{"start":2724.7900000000004,"end":2729.8700000000003,"text":"那等到我們真正的跟外界討論完"},{"start":2729.8700000000003,"end":2730.9500000000003,"text":"跟農民討論完"},{"start":2730.95,"end":2732.83,"text":"如果有適當的一個機會"},{"start":2732.83,"end":2735.99,"text":"我想我們也會用天然災害救助辦法裡面的"},{"start":2735.99,"end":2738.71,"text":"相關的一個規定來做辦理"},{"start":2738.71,"end":2740.5899999999997,"text":"這是第三條的一個回應"},{"start":2745.24,"end":2750.6,"text":"第三條我們看到的跟原條文差別是在第19款"},{"start":2751.66,"end":2752.3399999999997,"text":"是不是"},{"start":2752.3399999999997,"end":2752.8199999999997,"text":"對"},{"start":2752.8199999999997,"end":2754.62,"text":"第16款只有講到"},{"start":2755.38,"end":2756.38,"text":"你剛剛有回應的部分"},{"start":2756.38,"end":2758.6600000000003,"text":"好像有超出我們這個修正範圍"},{"start":2759.52,"end":2760.8,"text":"這裡妹妹講到受害"},{"start":2762.56,"end":2765.7599999999998,"text":"因為他們有的在第60條也有提到"},{"start":2765.7599999999998,"end":2766.84,"text":"那是後面的事情"},{"start":2766.84,"end":2768.84,"text":"那你就是要講第60條"},{"start":2768.84,"end":2770.32,"text":"那你就是一併回應就對了"},{"start":2770.32,"end":2771.84,"text":"所以你是回應第60條"},{"start":2771.84,"end":2773.64,"text":"我們李委員的部分"},{"start":2773.64,"end":2774.7599999999998,"text":"那在這裡"},{"start":2774.7599999999998,"end":2775.2799999999997,"text":"不是吧"},{"start":2775.2799999999997,"end":2776.24,"text":"還有秋"},{"start":2776.24,"end":2777.7599999999998,"text":"現在是第三條"},{"start":2777.7599999999998,"end":2778.6,"text":"所以他回應到後面"},{"start":2778.6,"end":2778.96,"text":"我們就"},{"start":2778.96,"end":2779.92,"text":"不是"},{"start":2779.92,"end":2781.24,"text":"有其他的委員"},{"start":2781.24,"end":2782.72,"text":"因為現在才討論第三條"},{"start":2782.72,"end":2784.6,"text":"你到這一條再來說就好了"},{"start":2784.6,"end":2785,"text":"好不好"},{"start":2786.35,"end":2788.39,"text":"因為他只是寫法上的問題而已"},{"start":2788.39,"end":2789.5099999999998,"text":"因為目前"},{"start":2789.5099999999998,"end":2790.39,"text":"目前這樣"},{"start":2790.39,"end":2792.27,"text":"定義寫在第三條"},{"start":2792.27,"end":2794.79,"text":"但是有的委員是在第60條的時候"},{"start":2794.79,"end":2796.15,"text":"把這個部分放進去"},{"start":2796.15,"end":2797.47,"text":"我了解"},{"start":2797.47,"end":2798.5099999999998,"text":"那你就一定回應"},{"start":2798.5099999999998,"end":2800.63,"text":"但是你回應的時候要說明標的"},{"start":2800.63,"end":2802.87,"text":"我們在看第三條的時候"},{"start":2802.87,"end":2805.07,"text":"19款並沒有講到受害"},{"start":2805.07,"end":2805.75,"text":"那其實"},{"start":2805.75,"end":2806.43,"text":"其他委員"},{"start":2806.43,"end":2807.99,"text":"很多委員的提案"},{"start":2807.99,"end":2810.39,"text":"我們都相對可以理解"},{"start":2810.39,"end":2811.5499999999997,"text":"那是不是這一條"},{"start":2811.5499999999997,"end":2812.87,"text":"這19款"},{"start":2812.87,"end":2813.27,"text":"因為"},{"start":2813.86,"end":2815.6600000000003,"text":"的確在天然災這邊"},{"start":2815.6600000000003,"end":2817.6600000000003,"text":"原來的颱風 焚風 龍捲風"},{"start":2817.6600000000003,"end":2819.5,"text":"豪雨 淫雨 冰暴"},{"start":2819.5,"end":2820.94,"text":"寒流 旱災或地震"},{"start":2820.94,"end":2822.1800000000003,"text":"所造成的災害"},{"start":2822.1800000000003,"end":2824.9,"text":"這是天然災害救助辦法裡面有規定的"},{"start":2824.9,"end":2825.94,"text":"對 其實就已經有規定"},{"start":2825.94,"end":2826.78,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":2826.78,"end":2829.7400000000002,"text":"氣候異常導致的病蟲害之災害"},{"start":2829.7400000000002,"end":2831.2200000000003,"text":"我想確認一下"},{"start":2831.2200000000003,"end":2831.78,"text":"你們"},{"start":2831.78,"end":2832.7400000000002,"text":"有沒有辦法去認定"},{"start":2832.7400000000002,"end":2835.54,"text":"氣候異常跟病蟲害之間的關聯性"},{"start":2835.54,"end":2837.2200000000003,"text":"這個就是要看個案"},{"start":2837.2200000000003,"end":2837.94,"text":"因為"},{"start":2837.94,"end":2840.1400000000003,"text":"病蟲害如果是因為"},{"start":2840.1400000000003,"end":2840.7000000000003,"text":"天然"},{"start":2840.7000000000003,"end":2842.34,"text":"就是天候的異常"},{"start":2842.38,"end":2843.6600000000003,"text":"導致病蟲害的"},{"start":2843.6600000000003,"end":2846.6200000000003,"text":"發生的頻度在瞬間的增加"},{"start":2846.6200000000003,"end":2848.38,"text":"那那個時候就可以被認定"},{"start":2848.38,"end":2850.46,"text":"是因為天然災害所影響的"},{"start":2850.46,"end":2853.86,"text":"那如果說是一般的病蟲害的話"},{"start":2853.86,"end":2857.26,"text":"因為天氣我們遇到是每天都遇到"},{"start":2857.26,"end":2858.9,"text":"所以它必須要有一些"},{"start":2858.9,"end":2860.7400000000002,"text":"普遍性跟一致性的部分"},{"start":2860.7400000000002,"end":2863.3,"text":"所以這個部分會變成"},{"start":2863.3,"end":2864.1400000000003,"text":"個案的認定"},{"start":2864.1400000000003,"end":2865.02,"text":"它不像"},{"start":2865.02,"end":2866.1400000000003,"text":"颱風 蠔雨這樣子"},{"start":2866.1400000000003,"end":2868.58,"text":"是一下子就知道這全面的或是"},{"start":2868.58,"end":2869.78,"text":"區域性的"},{"start":2869.78,"end":2871.2200000000003,"text":"那你們舉個例子"},{"start":2871.2599999999998,"end":2873.4599999999996,"text":"我這邊先給你一個提示"},{"start":2873.4599999999996,"end":2874.3399999999997,"text":"其實沒有錯"},{"start":2875.58,"end":2878.46,"text":"如果是局部氣候的異常導致的"},{"start":2878.46,"end":2880.66,"text":"譬如說你雨水多了 雨水少了"},{"start":2880.66,"end":2880.94,"text":"是"},{"start":2880.94,"end":2884.06,"text":"有些病蟲它的生長就有異常的改變"},{"start":2884.06,"end":2884.74,"text":"但是舉例"},{"start":2884.74,"end":2887.62,"text":"但是不是在台灣的天候異常"},{"start":2887.62,"end":2891.02,"text":"它所造成的這些病蟲害"},{"start":2891.02,"end":2892.02,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":2892.02,"end":2893.98,"text":"有一陣子在中國地區"},{"start":2893.98,"end":2895.06,"text":"他們的蝗蟲"},{"start":2895.06,"end":2895.34,"text":"是"},{"start":2895.34,"end":2896.38,"text":"大量的增生"},{"start":2896.38,"end":2898.2999999999997,"text":"就到台灣來侵蝕"},{"start":2898.2999999999997,"end":2898.5,"text":"是"},{"start":2898.5,"end":2899.14,"text":"那這個時候"},{"start":2899.14,"end":2901.1,"text":"因為台灣並沒有氣候異常"},{"start":2901.1,"end":2902.38,"text":"是對岸"},{"start":2902.38,"end":2903.7,"text":"但是他們那邊的氣候異常"},{"start":2903.7,"end":2905.2999999999997,"text":"導致的病蟲害"},{"start":2905.34,"end":2907.1000000000004,"text":"在這裡我們農業部怎麼去認定"},{"start":2907.1000000000004,"end":2907.9,"text":"因為"},{"start":2907.9,"end":2909.34,"text":"這裡的意思是說"},{"start":2909.34,"end":2912.0600000000004,"text":"好像在這裡所指的天然災害是指"},{"start":2912.0600000000004,"end":2913.1400000000003,"text":"台灣地區"},{"start":2913.1400000000003,"end":2916.38,"text":"因台灣地理區域上的天然災害"},{"start":2916.38,"end":2918.7000000000003,"text":"導致的氣候異常所"},{"start":2918.7000000000003,"end":2920.6200000000003,"text":"導致的病蟲害"},{"start":2920.6200000000003,"end":2921.7000000000003,"text":"那我們可以"},{"start":2921.7000000000003,"end":2924.34,"text":"那如果在其他地區的氣候異常"},{"start":2924.34,"end":2927.26,"text":"導致台灣蒙受到的病蟲害災害"},{"start":2927.26,"end":2928.6200000000003,"text":"農業部有辦法認定嗎"},{"start":2928.6200000000003,"end":2930.3,"text":"我想跟委員報告"},{"start":2930.3,"end":2931.7000000000003,"text":"你所舉的例子"},{"start":2931.7000000000003,"end":2934.6600000000003,"text":"就是類似秋蟳軍蟲"},{"start":2934.7,"end":2936.8199999999997,"text":"那我們現在的天然災害的定義"},{"start":2936.8199999999997,"end":2940.02,"text":"一定是針對台灣遭受的天然災害"},{"start":2940.02,"end":2942.18,"text":"所造成的農業的影響"},{"start":2942.18,"end":2943.42,"text":"我們才會去處理"},{"start":2943.42,"end":2944.66,"text":"那如果說"},{"start":2944.66,"end":2947.22,"text":"國外造成的天然災害的"},{"start":2947.22,"end":2948.54,"text":"天候的異常"},{"start":2948.54,"end":2950.62,"text":"造成一些像秋蟳軍蟲"},{"start":2950.62,"end":2952.58,"text":"由境外進來的"},{"start":2952.58,"end":2954.2999999999997,"text":"這種入侵的這些種"},{"start":2954.2999999999997,"end":2955.98,"text":"我們都是用專案的方式"},{"start":2955.98,"end":2958.3799999999997,"text":"去做撲殺跟處理跟救助"},{"start":2959.59,"end":2960.4300000000003,"text":"所以你的意思是說"},{"start":2960.4300000000003,"end":2962.9100000000003,"text":"在目前我們修訂的這本法"},{"start":2962.9100000000003,"end":2965.3100000000004,"text":"就是我們農花條例當中"},{"start":2965.81,"end":2967.17,"text":"就算沒有訂出"},{"start":2967.17,"end":2970.61,"text":"像秋蟳軍蟲這樣的一個病蟲害"},{"start":2970.61,"end":2972.81,"text":"我們一樣農業部可以在"},{"start":2972.81,"end":2975.25,"text":"我們的農業天然災害救助辦法當中"},{"start":2975.25,"end":2976.41,"text":"予以專案認定"},{"start":2976.41,"end":2976.85,"text":"是不是這樣子"},{"start":2976.85,"end":2978.61,"text":"我們也不用天然"},{"start":2978.61,"end":2980.41,"text":"不動用到天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":2980.41,"end":2983.45,"text":"我們是針對重大的這些"},{"start":2983.45,"end":2986.0499999999997,"text":"疫病蟲害從國外導入的時候"},{"start":2986.0499999999997,"end":2988.49,"text":"而且是不是人為導入的時候"},{"start":2988.49,"end":2989.81,"text":"那我們會"},{"start":2989.81,"end":2991.25,"text":"在行政院的同意之下"},{"start":2991.25,"end":2993.25,"text":"我們會開啟專案的一個"},{"start":2993.25,"end":2995.37,"text":"救助跟相關的移除"},{"start":2995.81,"end":2997.41,"text":"秋林總統就是一個例子"},{"start":2997.41,"end":2998.85,"text":"就是當初開始的時候"},{"start":2998.85,"end":2999.69,"text":"我們在處理的"},{"start":2999.69,"end":3001.81,"text":"包括農藥的防治的話"},{"start":3001.81,"end":3003.45,"text":"都是由中央政府這邊"},{"start":3003.45,"end":3005.5299999999997,"text":"來提供經費給各個地方政府"},{"start":3005.5299999999997,"end":3006.6099999999997,"text":"發給農民的部分"},{"start":3007.5,"end":3009.7400000000002,"text":"好 那主席跟委員也爭取一下"},{"start":3009.7400000000002,"end":3011.38,"text":"那我是覺得第十九款"},{"start":3011.38,"end":3012.3,"text":"既然委員提案了"},{"start":3012.3,"end":3013.66,"text":"我們予以尊重"},{"start":3013.66,"end":3015.06,"text":"是不是那個豆號後面"},{"start":3015.06,"end":3016.58,"text":"禍因氣候異常導致"},{"start":3016.58,"end":3018.5,"text":"發生病蟲害之災害"},{"start":3018.5,"end":3020.94,"text":"那麼依主管部會的說明"},{"start":3020.94,"end":3022.94,"text":"是不是我們就保留到"},{"start":3022.94,"end":3024.2200000000003,"text":"那個豆點之前"},{"start":3024.2200000000003,"end":3026.98,"text":"因為這個跟天然災害救助辦法是一樣"},{"start":3026.98,"end":3028.98,"text":"那既然委員有提案了"},{"start":3028.98,"end":3031.94,"text":"那雖然行政部門覺得有重複規定"},{"start":3031.94,"end":3034.86,"text":"但是訂在我們的農法條例當中"},{"start":3034.86,"end":3037.34,"text":"把天然災害重複的序名"},{"start":3037.38,"end":3039.3,"text":"除非農業部認為說"},{"start":3039.3,"end":3040.7000000000003,"text":"寫了之後掛一六萬"},{"start":3040.7000000000003,"end":3041.58,"text":"不如不要寫"},{"start":3041.58,"end":3042.38,"text":"不然的話"},{"start":3042.38,"end":3044.1800000000003,"text":"如果跟既有的農業部"},{"start":3044.1800000000003,"end":3046.02,"text":"天然災害救助辦法是一致的"},{"start":3046.02,"end":3048.1800000000003,"text":"那麼我們覺得應該尊重委員的提案"},{"start":3048.1800000000003,"end":3049.9,"text":"我跟委員先報告一下"},{"start":3049.9,"end":3051.94,"text":"因為天然災害會用到這個字"},{"start":3051.94,"end":3054.34,"text":"我們在一般法的前面的定義的話"},{"start":3054.34,"end":3056.46,"text":"就是後面的條文經常會用到"},{"start":3056.46,"end":3058.26,"text":"那天然災害這個定義"},{"start":3058.26,"end":3060.02,"text":"只在第60條用到"},{"start":3060.79,"end":3061.75,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":3061.75,"end":3062.67,"text":"第二點就是說"},{"start":3062.67,"end":3064.67,"text":"天然災害因為剛才在災防法"},{"start":3064.67,"end":3066.27,"text":"災防就法已經有定了"},{"start":3066.81,"end":3068.13,"text":"災防法定的跟你們這不一樣"},{"start":3068.13,"end":3069.0499999999997,"text":"你去看一下"},{"start":3069.0499999999997,"end":3070.89,"text":"災防法寫的跟你們這個"},{"start":3070.89,"end":3071.89,"text":"你們這個內容"},{"start":3071.89,"end":3074.25,"text":"是天然災害救助辦法裡面的內容"},{"start":3074.25,"end":3075.73,"text":"不是災防法的內容"},{"start":3075.73,"end":3078.57,"text":"沒有災防法的定義裡面就是"},{"start":3078.57,"end":3079.85,"text":"風災水災"},{"start":3081.09,"end":3083.69,"text":"漢災、鄭災、寒海、土石流"},{"start":3083.69,"end":3084.9700000000003,"text":"大規模崩塌"},{"start":3084.9700000000003,"end":3086.13,"text":"等天然災害"},{"start":3089.05,"end":3091.65,"text":"你們目前農業部的天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3091.65,"end":3094.05,"text":"是指颱風、焚風、龍捲風"},{"start":3094.05,"end":3097.05,"text":"蠔雨、淫雨、冰雹、寒流"},{"start":3097.05,"end":3099.53,"text":"旱災或地震所造成的災害"},{"start":3099.53,"end":3101.57,"text":"其實這個條款是跟你們的"},{"start":3101.57,"end":3103.21,"text":"救助辦法抄出來的"},{"start":3103.21,"end":3103.8900000000003,"text":"不要說抄"},{"start":3103.8900000000003,"end":3105.73,"text":"就是演演出來的"},{"start":3105.73,"end":3107.3300000000004,"text":"那你們不要再去自我否定"},{"start":3107.3300000000004,"end":3108.8100000000004,"text":"你們的救助辦法"},{"start":3108.8100000000004,"end":3110.8500000000004,"text":"那如果說你都是災害防救法的"},{"start":3110.8500000000004,"end":3113.3700000000003,"text":"順序內容不完全一致"},{"start":3113.3700000000003,"end":3114.53,"text":"所以除非你是說"},{"start":3114.53,"end":3115.69,"text":"第四就法我們不要規定"},{"start":3115.69,"end":3116.77,"text":"我們在第二"},{"start":3116.77,"end":3118.25,"text":"第60條的部分"},{"start":3118.25,"end":3119.57,"text":"就直接把它寫在那裡面"},{"start":3119.57,"end":3120.93,"text":"那本席可以接受"},{"start":3120.93,"end":3122.61,"text":"就是說你們認為"},{"start":3122.61,"end":3124.61,"text":"這個第19款就直接放在"},{"start":3124.61,"end":3127.01,"text":"第60條的部分"},{"start":3127.01,"end":3128.09,"text":"那60條的部分"},{"start":3128.09,"end":3129.21,"text":"我們就是以"},{"start":3129.21,"end":3130.53,"text":"你們的天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3130.53,"end":3131.89,"text":"那幾個款項"},{"start":3131.89,"end":3132.73,"text":"是不是這個意思"},{"start":3132.73,"end":3134.4900000000002,"text":"我再跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3134.4900000000002,"end":3135.69,"text":"我們把這個東西放在"},{"start":3135.69,"end":3136.85,"text":"天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":3136.85,"end":3138.9700000000003,"text":"如果你看天然災害救助辦法的"},{"start":3138.9700000000003,"end":3140.05,"text":"第四條裡面的"},{"start":3140.05,"end":3141.69,"text":"還有加一個第二項"},{"start":3141.69,"end":3142.85,"text":"就是我們剛才講的"},{"start":3142.85,"end":3145.29,"text":"您所念的這些颱風、焚風等"},{"start":3145.41,"end":3146.17,"text":"我們還有一個"},{"start":3146.17,"end":3148.49,"text":"前項以外的天然災害發生"},{"start":3148.49,"end":3150.61,"text":"且有救助之必要時"},{"start":3150.61,"end":3153.05,"text":"得由中央助管機關專案認定"},{"start":3153.05,"end":3154.77,"text":"所以這個就是我們剛才講的"},{"start":3154.77,"end":3156.33,"text":"如果遇到病蟲害的時候"},{"start":3156.33,"end":3160.17,"text":"會放在那個辦法裡面去定盤"},{"start":3160.17,"end":3162.69,"text":"有一個比較適度的彈性"},{"start":3163.5099999999998,"end":3164.6699999999996,"text":"好那我再確認一下"},{"start":3164.6699999999996,"end":3166.1099999999997,"text":"因為我看60條"},{"start":3166.1099999999997,"end":3167.79,"text":"主席因為大家講來講去"},{"start":3167.79,"end":3170.5899999999997,"text":"都會直接跟60條掛鉤"},{"start":3170.5899999999997,"end":3171.79,"text":"那60條的內容"},{"start":3171.79,"end":3173.1899999999996,"text":"其實委員就是要把"},{"start":3173.18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其他的得由中央主管機關專案論定制"},{"start":3320.79,"end":3322.19,"text":"那現在我們現在是"},{"start":3323.22,"end":3323.8599999999997,"text":"修法"},{"start":3324.76,"end":3326.32,"text":"把它明確定在"},{"start":3326.32,"end":3328.86,"text":"認為需要增加的把它列在這邊"},{"start":3329.64,"end":3332.4,"text":"以這個邱振軍委員的提案就是"},{"start":3332.8799999999997,"end":3336.6,"text":"因氣候異常導致發生病蟲害"},{"start":3337.38,"end":3337.94,"text":"是災害"},{"start":3338.92,"end":3340.36,"text":"如果認為這個還不夠"},{"start":3341.3,"end":3342.86,"text":"我們可以再增加"},{"start":3343.26,"end":3345.26,"text":"或者是在這裡也是"},{"start":3345.46,"end":3346.0600000000004,"text":"也定"},{"start":3346.92,"end":3348.08,"text":"也增定"},{"start":3348.82,"end":3351.98,"text":"得由中央主管機關專案論定制"},{"start":3352.38,"end":3354.1800000000003,"text":"不要提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3354.81,"end":3356.65,"text":"因為我們每一次建議的時候"},{"start":3357.33,"end":3358.37,"text":"你們就不修了"},{"start":3358.9,"end":3359.7400000000002,"text":"啊 不累啊"},{"start":3360.29,"end":3361.69,"text":"沒事都很困難啊"},{"start":3362.09,"end":3362.89,"text":"才會"},{"start":3363.47,"end":3364.5099999999998,"text":"把它列為"},{"start":3365.06,"end":3367.22,"text":"提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3367.79,"end":3369.23,"text":"那為什麼這個"},{"start":3370.15,"end":3371.59,"text":"要列在第三條"},{"start":3372.15,"end":3372.71,"text":"啊"},{"start":3373.39,"end":3375.5499999999997,"text":"就是因為這邊是在講這個"},{"start":3378.03,"end":3378.4300000000003,"text":"啊"},{"start":3379.79,"end":3381.9100000000003,"text":"我的建議還是說這個"},{"start":3381.9900000000002,"end":3383.19,"text":"當然我們"},{"start":3383.55,"end":3385.9100000000003,"text":"這個李一林委員"},{"start":3386.19,"end":3389.3900000000003,"text":"在這個第60條裡面也有提到"},{"start":3389.75,"end":3391.3900000000003,"text":"那因為這個是在講"},{"start":3392.0299999999997,"end":3392.79,"text":"定義的吧"},{"start":3392.79,"end":3393.79,"text":"類似定義"},{"start":3393.95,"end":3394.99,"text":"就是講定義"},{"start":3394.99,"end":3395.6299999999997,"text":"所以就"},{"start":3395.95,"end":3397.5499999999997,"text":"就那個立法體力的話"},{"start":3397.5499999999997,"end":3398.83,"text":"就會放在這個"},{"start":3399.2299999999996,"end":3400.83,"text":"既然我們這個"},{"start":3401.1499999999996,"end":3402.6299999999997,"text":"這個農業發展條例"},{"start":3403.06,"end":3403.9,"text":"有這個"},{"start":3404.8700000000003,"end":3406.11,"text":"用此定義"},{"start":3406.4700000000003,"end":3409.8700000000003,"text":"就立法體力的話就把它併在一起"},{"start":3410.2700000000004,"end":3410.8700000000003,"text":"這會"},{"start":3411.99,"end":3413.95,"text":"這個我建議農業部"},{"start":3414.82,"end":3415.98,"text":"日本外交"},{"start":3416.88,"end":3419.04,"text":"立法委員所提的提案"},{"start":3420.51,"end":3423.8300000000004,"text":"就這個第19款而言"},{"start":3424.78,"end":3426.6400000000003,"text":"哪些還需要把它"},{"start":3427.68,"end":3429.9199999999996,"text":"定等會更明確會更好"},{"start":3430.77,"end":3433.07,"text":"而不是去否定說它放在這裡"},{"start":3433.07,"end":3433.57,"text":"因為"},{"start":3434.3,"end":3435.5800000000004,"text":"你本來就要定義嘛"},{"start":3436.17,"end":3438.17,"text":"你現在的定義本來是放在辦法"},{"start":3438.98,"end":3440.38,"text":"那現在立法委員希望"},{"start":3440.38,"end":3442.38,"text":"把它提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3442.99,"end":3444.43,"text":"而不要去否定它"},{"start":3444.83,"end":3446.83,"text":"而是說這個條文"},{"start":3447.0299999999997,"end":3448.0299999999997,"text":"這樣的寫法"},{"start":3448.2299999999996,"end":3449.39,"text":"還少了什麼"},{"start":3449.7299999999996,"end":3451.5899999999997,"text":"因為經過這麼多年"},{"start":3452.16,"end":3453.3599999999997,"text":"的一個實施"},{"start":3453.7599999999998,"end":3456.3599999999997,"text":"那怎麼樣能夠把它強化"},{"start":3456.98,"end":3457.78,"text":"能夠"},{"start":3457.78,"end":3459.38,"text":"你剛剛不是講了很多"},{"start":3459.94,"end":3461.7400000000002,"text":"透過這個專案認定的"},{"start":3461.7400000000002,"end":3462.7000000000003,"text":"都把它寫進去"},{"start":3462.7000000000003,"end":3463.94,"text":"不是以後更明確嗎"},{"start":3464.68,"end":3465.2799999999997,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3465.58,"end":3467.08,"text":"我的建議是這樣以上"},{"start":3470.8,"end":3471.6,"text":"主席"},{"start":3471.6,"end":3474.6,"text":"我們今天在針對產發條例的修法"},{"start":3475.1,"end":3477.6,"text":"我們都提了很多次了"},{"start":3477.6,"end":3479.8,"text":"你們也質詢過了"},{"start":3479.8,"end":3482.3,"text":"然後我們條文也宣讀過了"},{"start":3482.3,"end":3484.8,"text":"但是我們就是要等行政院的版本進來"},{"start":3484.8,"end":3486.1,"text":"你們都一直不進來"},{"start":3486.1,"end":3487.6,"text":"我們大家來共同討論"},{"start":3487.6,"end":3489.2000000000003,"text":"所以今天我們主席"},{"start":3489.2000000000003,"end":3490.8,"text":"來特別排這個案子的話"},{"start":3490.8,"end":3493.1,"text":"我們也謝謝部長李青志道"},{"start":3493.1,"end":3494.6,"text":"來討論這個案子"},{"start":3494.6,"end":3496.6,"text":"那剛剛這個第三條"},{"start":3496.6,"end":3498.1,"text":"我們中委員有說"},{"start":3498.1,"end":3500.1,"text":"跟我們第60條是一樣的"},{"start":3500.3399999999997,"end":3502.3399999999997,"text":"那我們為什麼要在這個"},{"start":3502.8399999999997,"end":3504.3399999999997,"text":"母法裡面來提這個"},{"start":3504.3399999999997,"end":3506.3399999999997,"text":"最重要是我們產發條例裡面"},{"start":3506.3399999999997,"end":3508.8399999999997,"text":"並沒有明確的定義"},{"start":3508.8399999999997,"end":3511.3399999999997,"text":"說我們天然災害的種類"},{"start":3511.3399999999997,"end":3512.8399999999997,"text":"種類沒有定義出來"},{"start":3512.8399999999997,"end":3514.3399999999997,"text":"雖然剛剛念出來的"},{"start":3514.3399999999997,"end":3516.8399999999997,"text":"怎麼天災風災冰爆"},{"start":3516.8399999999997,"end":3518.8399999999997,"text":"還是說我們地震等等這些"},{"start":3518.8399999999997,"end":3521.3399999999997,"text":"並沒有說我們農作物的"},{"start":3521.3399999999997,"end":3522.8399999999997,"text":"這個受損的情形"},{"start":3522.8399999999997,"end":3524.3399999999997,"text":"還有其他的因素"},{"start":3524.3399999999997,"end":3526.8399999999997,"text":"那部長你說把這其他因素給"},{"start":3526.8399999999997,"end":3527.8399999999997,"text":"你們有專案"},{"start":3527.8399999999997,"end":3529.3399999999997,"text":"為什麼設專案"},{"start":3530.18,"end":3532.68,"text":"我們需要的就是給你們有法源"},{"start":3532.68,"end":3534.18,"text":"要不然的話我們母法有"},{"start":3534.18,"end":3536.68,"text":"你執法裡面沒有明確的"},{"start":3536.68,"end":3538.68,"text":"把這種類項目定出來的話"},{"start":3538.68,"end":3540.18,"text":"在執行的時候"},{"start":3540.18,"end":3542.68,"text":"會有摯愛難行或卡卡的地方"},{"start":3542.68,"end":3544.68,"text":"所以我們才說希望"},{"start":3544.68,"end":3546.68,"text":"把它把這天然災害的種類"},{"start":3546.68,"end":3548.18,"text":"明確出來"},{"start":3548.18,"end":3550.18,"text":"包括我們這天然災害裡面"},{"start":3550.18,"end":3551.68,"text":"不只是氣候的問題"},{"start":3551.68,"end":3553.68,"text":"還有野生的保護動物"},{"start":3553.68,"end":3555.18,"text":"這也會造成"},{"start":3555.18,"end":3556.68,"text":"剛剛部長也有講"},{"start":3556.68,"end":3558.18,"text":"可能是猴子的問題"},{"start":3558.18,"end":3559.68,"text":"還有綠西瓜的問題"},{"start":3559.68,"end":3561.18,"text":"還有紅火蟻的問題"},{"start":3561.18,"end":3564.18,"text":"很多種我們就把明確定出來"},{"start":3564.18,"end":3566.18,"text":"讓你在執行執法的時候"},{"start":3566.18,"end":3567.68,"text":"有法源根據"},{"start":3567.68,"end":3568.68,"text":"這樣子的話"},{"start":3568.68,"end":3570.18,"text":"我們的農民的災損"},{"start":3570.18,"end":3571.68,"text":"才能夠獲得保障"},{"start":3571.68,"end":3573.18,"text":"對我們農民才是公平的好不好"},{"start":3573.18,"end":3574.68,"text":"所以這個第十九條"},{"start":3574.68,"end":3576.18,"text":"不要不要把它廢掉"},{"start":3576.18,"end":3578.18,"text":"可以把它納入六十條裡面"},{"start":3578.18,"end":3579.68,"text":"把納入六十條裡面"},{"start":3579.68,"end":3582.18,"text":"我們把明確的定義確定種類"},{"start":3582.18,"end":3583.68,"text":"然後確定它的法源"},{"start":3583.68,"end":3585.68,"text":"讓我們執法更加的公平公正"},{"start":3585.68,"end":3586.18,"text":"好不好"},{"start":3586.85,"end":3588.85,"text":"好謝謝委員的"},{"start":3589.43,"end":3590.43,"text":"可以回應了"},{"start":3591.73,"end":3593.73,"text":"謝謝委員的一些建議"},{"start":3593.73,"end":3595.73,"text":"那我想我分幾個層面"},{"start":3595.73,"end":3597.23,"text":"跟各位來說明"},{"start":3597.23,"end":3599.23,"text":"就是在法的設計上"},{"start":3599.23,"end":3601.23,"text":"有母法跟相關的辦法"},{"start":3601.23,"end":3603.23,"text":"那當然相關的辦法"},{"start":3603.23,"end":3604.23,"text":"最主要是作用法"},{"start":3604.23,"end":3605.73,"text":"在執行面的部分"},{"start":3605.73,"end":3607.73,"text":"那我想各位都知道"},{"start":3607.73,"end":3609.73,"text":"這幾年天然災害救助"},{"start":3609.73,"end":3611.23,"text":"農業部一定是盡全力"},{"start":3611.23,"end":3613.73,"text":"甚至於都是用主動公告的方式"},{"start":3613.73,"end":3615.73,"text":"來第一時間協助農民"},{"start":3615.73,"end":3617.73,"text":"但是我們如果把"},{"start":3617.73,"end":3619.73,"text":"很多辦法裡面的條文"},{"start":3619.73,"end":3621.73,"text":"要把它搬到母法的時候"},{"start":3621.73,"end":3623.73,"text":"那我們考慮農法條例"},{"start":3623.73,"end":3625.73,"text":"有非常非常多的條例"},{"start":3625.73,"end":3627.73,"text":"它有相關的辦法"},{"start":3627.73,"end":3629.73,"text":"那相關的辦法都全部"},{"start":3629.29,"end":3631.29,"text":"放在母法的時候"},{"start":3631.56,"end":3633.56,"text":"就不會去呈現出它的一個重要性"},{"start":3633.56,"end":3635.56,"text":"所以我們用辦法的方式"},{"start":3635.56,"end":3637.56,"text":"有它的彈性"},{"start":3637.56,"end":3639.56,"text":"那這個彈性本身"},{"start":3639.56,"end":3641.56,"text":"我剛才說到的就是說"},{"start":3641.56,"end":3643.56,"text":"我們有一個第二項其他的方式"},{"start":3643.56,"end":3645.56,"text":"那其他的部分它是"},{"start":3645.56,"end":3647.56,"text":"比較不容易是直接的"},{"start":3647.56,"end":3648.56,"text":"天然災害"},{"start":3648.56,"end":3650.56,"text":"它是因為天然災害而影響的"},{"start":3650.56,"end":3652.56,"text":"像病蟲害等這個部分"},{"start":3652.56,"end":3653.56,"text":"那它都要"},{"start":3653.74,"end":3655.74,"text":"一些專案的認定"},{"start":3655.74,"end":3657.74,"text":"而不是說只要病蟲害"},{"start":3657.74,"end":3659.74,"text":"它不是天然災害一種"},{"start":3659.74,"end":3661.74,"text":"它是因為受天然災害影響"},{"start":3661.74,"end":3663.74,"text":"而造成它的族群"},{"start":3663.74,"end":3665.74,"text":"那那個族群的話不是第一時間就可以判斷"},{"start":3665.74,"end":3667.74,"text":"所以我們必須去了解以後"},{"start":3667.74,"end":3669.74,"text":"才去做判斷"},{"start":3669.74,"end":3671.74,"text":"那第二個部分是"},{"start":3671.74,"end":3673.74,"text":"在整個的一個法的設計裡面"},{"start":3673.74,"end":3675.74,"text":"我想後續的這些"},{"start":3675.74,"end":3677.74,"text":"作為包括"},{"start":3677.74,"end":3679.74,"text":"專案認定的部分或是在"},{"start":3679.74,"end":3681.74,"text":"辦法裡面做修訂的部分會比較好"},{"start":3681.74,"end":3683.74,"text":"那最後回應就是剛才講的就是"},{"start":3683.74,"end":3685.74,"text":"我們在定義裡面"},{"start":3685.74,"end":3687.74,"text":"去寫的時候"},{"start":3687.74,"end":3689.74,"text":"我們在一個法會有"},{"start":3689.74,"end":3691.74,"text":"名詞定義是因為後面的條文"},{"start":3691.74,"end":3693.74,"text":"會經常用到"},{"start":3693.74,"end":3695.74,"text":"我們才會去定義"},{"start":3695.74,"end":3697.74,"text":"但是天然災害這幾個定義的話"},{"start":3697.74,"end":3699.74,"text":"只在60條出現"},{"start":3699.74,"end":3701.74,"text":"所以在60條出現的天然災害裡面"},{"start":3701.74,"end":3703.74,"text":"我們就回到我們的辦法去設計"},{"start":3703.74,"end":3705.74,"text":"所以這個法當初的設計"},{"start":3705.74,"end":3707.74,"text":"是這樣的方式"},{"start":3707.74,"end":3709.74,"text":"而且到目前為止也沒有特別自愛難行的部分"},{"start":3711.1,"end":3713.1,"text":"必須要去做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":3715.42,"end":3717.42,"text":"主席我先建議"},{"start":3717.42,"end":3719.42,"text":"因為我們剛剛這樣討論的話"},{"start":3719.42,"end":3721.42,"text":"就是第三條我們先把"},{"start":3721.42,"end":3723.42,"text":"邱政軍委員19條"},{"start":3723.42,"end":3725.42,"text":"放在第60條裡面"},{"start":3725.42,"end":3727.42,"text":"一併來解釋再討論"},{"start":3727.42,"end":3729.42,"text":"所以我們先把第三條過了"},{"start":3729.42,"end":3731.42,"text":"再往下走吧"},{"start":3731.55,"end":3733.55,"text":"第三條就沒有了"},{"start":3733.55,"end":3735.55,"text":"就是把19條放到"},{"start":3735.55,"end":3737.55,"text":"第19款放到60條"},{"start":3737.55,"end":3739.55,"text":"來處理"},{"start":3739.55,"end":3741.55,"text":"我現在先這樣子"},{"start":3741.55,"end":3743.55,"text":"因為結構很清楚"},{"start":3743.55,"end":3745.55,"text":"就是說你天然災害是不是要定在第三條"},{"start":3745.55,"end":3747.55,"text":"的名詞的定義就這樣子"},{"start":3747.55,"end":3749.55,"text":"還是要放在第60條"},{"start":3749.55,"end":3751.55,"text":"我們先徵求在場委員"},{"start":3751.55,"end":3753.55,"text":"我們先確定他天然災害"},{"start":3753.55,"end":3755.55,"text":"的程序是要放在第"},{"start":3756.69,"end":3758.69,"text":"你要放在第19款還是要放在"},{"start":3758.69,"end":3760.69,"text":"不要放到19款"},{"start":3760.69,"end":3762.69,"text":"要放到60條"},{"start":3765.43,"end":3767.43,"text":"這樣啊你如果"},{"start":3767.43,"end":3769.43,"text":"第三條第19款裡面"},{"start":3770.11,"end":3772.11,"text":"我覺得要加三個"},{"start":3773.04,"end":3775.04,"text":"也是動物保育法"},{"start":3775.04,"end":3777.04,"text":"第20點"},{"start":3777.04,"end":3779.04,"text":"你現在把他放在前面"},{"start":3779.04,"end":3781.04,"text":"農業部不承認啦"},{"start":3781.04,"end":3783.04,"text":"你不要跟我講辦法"},{"start":3783.04,"end":3785.04,"text":"我哪一次針對法的部分有所謂的不承認"},{"start":3785.04,"end":3787.04,"text":"沒有絕對沒有這個事情"},{"start":3787.04,"end":3789.04,"text":"我把他放進去你們才會承認啦"},{"start":3789.04,"end":3791.04,"text":"我每次拜託你說"},{"start":3791.04,"end":3793.04,"text":"國外從南部到北部"},{"start":3793.04,"end":3795.04,"text":"國家都一直在反應"},{"start":3795.04,"end":3797.04,"text":"你每次講到天然災害"},{"start":3797.04,"end":3799.04,"text":"國外的話"},{"start":3799.04,"end":3801.04,"text":"你跟委員報告我上次已經承諾"},{"start":3801.04,"end":3803.04,"text":"國外的部分我們一定會來"},{"start":3803.04,"end":3805.04,"text":"想辦法去認定"},{"start":3805.04,"end":3807.04,"text":"把他抓在裡面嘛"},{"start":3810.93,"end":3812.93,"text":"我們在場委員"},{"start":3812.93,"end":3814.93,"text":"今天決定就是說"},{"start":3814.93,"end":3816.93,"text":"我們如果在第三條第19款"},{"start":3816.93,"end":3818.93,"text":"不加就是把他放到第60條"},{"start":3818.93,"end":3820.93,"text":"來處理"},{"start":3820.93,"end":3822.93,"text":"這樣在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3823.05,"end":3825.05,"text":"我現在要問政天才委員"},{"start":3826.94,"end":3828.94,"text":"這樣好"},{"start":3831.85,"end":3833.85,"text":"我還是要跟部長"},{"start":3833.85,"end":3835.85,"text":"農業部這邊來做說明"},{"start":3837.32,"end":3839.32,"text":"因為"},{"start":3838.54,"end":3840.54,"text":"災害防救法"},{"start":3840.54,"end":3842.54,"text":"他是法律"},{"start":3841.64,"end":3843.64,"text":"他裡面定的災害"},{"start":3844.41,"end":3846.41,"text":"天然災害就累積了"},{"start":3847.02,"end":3851.02,"text":"就沒有包含很多跟農業有關的部分"},{"start":3851.63,"end":3853.63,"text":"所以我們現在"},{"start":3853.63,"end":3855.63,"text":"把他提升為法律的位階"},{"start":3855.63,"end":3857.63,"text":"那到底要放在第三條"},{"start":3859.33,"end":3861.33,"text":"還是放在第60條"},{"start":3861.33,"end":3863.33,"text":"大家可以討論"},{"start":3863.33,"end":3865.33,"text":"反正我認為都應該提升為"},{"start":3865.33,"end":3867.33,"text":"法律的位階"},{"start":3867.33,"end":3869.33,"text":"但是這個條文字"},{"start":3869.33,"end":3871.33,"text":"文字還是要增加"},{"start":3871.33,"end":3873.33,"text":"所以農業部這邊也幫忙"},{"start":3873.33,"end":3875.33,"text":"這個"},{"start":3875.33,"end":3877.33,"text":"想一下這個文字"},{"start":3877.33,"end":3879.33,"text":"還是要把這個"},{"start":3879.33,"end":3881.33,"text":"因為我們怪异若望"},{"start":3881.33,"end":3885.33,"text":"所以還是要有這個授權給中央主管機關來另外認定"},{"start":3885.33,"end":3887.33,"text":"增加其他的"},{"start":3887.33,"end":3889.33,"text":"認定的部分以上"},{"start":3889.33,"end":3891.33,"text":"我現在結論是這樣子好不好"},{"start":3891.33,"end":3893.33,"text":"我想在場我們大概就是說"},{"start":3893.33,"end":3895.33,"text":"我們在第三條第19款"},{"start":3895.33,"end":3897.33,"text":"所列這些東西"},{"start":3897.33,"end":3899.33,"text":"我們全部都把它放到第60條"},{"start":3899.33,"end":3901.33,"text":"那在第60條"},{"start":3901.33,"end":3903.33,"text":"等一下我們討論的時候"},{"start":3903.33,"end":3905.33,"text":"我們也許在討論完"},{"start":3905.33,"end":3907.33,"text":"也許也可以先暫時休息"},{"start":3907.33,"end":3909.33,"text":"把那個修正的文字"},{"start":3909.33,"end":3911.33,"text":"弄出來"},{"start":3911.44,"end":3913.44,"text":"現在就可以寫了"},{"start":3914.04,"end":3916.04,"text":"那這樣子好不好"},{"start":3916.04,"end":3918.04,"text":"我們第三條我們就是"},{"start":3918.04,"end":3920.04,"text":"就維持這個"},{"start":3920.04,"end":3922.04,"text":"現行的條文"},{"start":3922.04,"end":3924.04,"text":"那等一下我們就到第49款的項目"},{"start":3924.04,"end":3926.04,"text":"移到第60條"},{"start":3929.66,"end":3933.66,"text":"好,接下來我們進行這個第10條之一"},{"start":3935.47,"end":3937.47,"text":"第10條之一也是一樣"},{"start":3937.47,"end":3939.47,"text":"就是在有關於農地填土的規範"},{"start":3939.47,"end":3941.47,"text":"已經在農法條例的"},{"start":3941.47,"end":3943.47,"text":"實施細則裡面的第二條第一項"},{"start":3943.47,"end":3945.47,"text":"已經規定了"},{"start":3945.47,"end":3947.47,"text":"那這邊我要跟委員報告"},{"start":3947.47,"end":3949.47,"text":"就是從法的執行來"},{"start":3949.47,"end":3951.47,"text":"不管是母法或執法"},{"start":3951.47,"end":3953.47,"text":"它的執行結果的效率是一樣的"},{"start":3953.47,"end":3955.47,"text":"所以我們也覺得說"},{"start":3955.47,"end":3957.47,"text":"在執法已經有明確的明定的時候"},{"start":3957.47,"end":3959.47,"text":"我們就不用再提升到母法的位階"},{"start":3959.47,"end":3961.47,"text":"這是農業部的立場"},{"start":3965.23,"end":3967.23,"text":"好,那這個有的回應是一樣"},{"start":3967.23,"end":3969.23,"text":"因為我們是之前已經通過"},{"start":3969.23,"end":3971.23,"text":"屠宰法"},{"start":3971.23,"end":3973.23,"text":"那屠宰法之後的清單會"},{"start":3973.23,"end":3975.23,"text":"屠到這邊的話"},{"start":3975.23,"end":3977.23,"text":"這個是我們當時提案的一個目的"},{"start":3977.23,"end":3979.23,"text":"那也是跟剛剛一樣"},{"start":3979.23,"end":3981.23,"text":"就是說我們把這個東西"},{"start":3981.23,"end":3983.23,"text":"放到法庭來"},{"start":3983.23,"end":3985.23,"text":"只是讓你有一個更好的法人的依據"},{"start":3985.23,"end":3987.23,"text":"那基本上來講就是"},{"start":3987.23,"end":3989.23,"text":"理念上來講的話"},{"start":3989.23,"end":3991.23,"text":"我們覺得以這樣子的方式"},{"start":3991.23,"end":3993.23,"text":"來做這個控管"},{"start":3993.23,"end":3997.23,"text":"這個地方政府機關在執行這個法則的判定的時候"},{"start":3997.23,"end":3999.23,"text":"會比較好一點"},{"start":3998.65,"end":4000.65,"text":"來,衝"},{"start":4000.99,"end":4002.99,"text":"衝"},{"start":4002.22,"end":4004.22,"text":"請問那個養殖漁業"},{"start":4004.22,"end":4006.22,"text":"漁溫它算不算農業用地"},{"start":4007.29,"end":4009.29,"text":"算了嗎?"},{"start":4009.29,"end":4011.29,"text":"算好了,那我就大概就教一下大家"},{"start":4011.29,"end":4013.29,"text":"其實它這裡面我是認同第一項"},{"start":4013.29,"end":4015.29,"text":"農業用地應維持農業生產功能與日然生態"},{"start":4015.29,"end":4017.29,"text":"這是非常好的"},{"start":4017.29,"end":4019.29,"text":"但是第二項的部分"},{"start":4019.29,"end":4021.29,"text":"其實這個版本的用意"},{"start":4021.29,"end":4027.29,"text":"它是針對銀建剩餘土石方廢棄物"},{"start":4027.29,"end":4029.29,"text":"大概就是目前我們最痛恨的"},{"start":4029.29,"end":4031.29,"text":"就是這些廢土"},{"start":4031.5,"end":4033.5,"text":"那這些廢土啊,兩個字包含了哪些"},{"start":4033.5,"end":4035.5,"text":"要怎麼去認定"},{"start":4035.5,"end":4037.5,"text":"其實要有一個明確的定義"},{"start":4037.5,"end":4039.5,"text":"那我是覺得"},{"start":4039.5,"end":4041.5,"text":"如果真的要把十條之一的精神放進去"},{"start":4041.5,"end":4043.5,"text":"就是要把這樣的一個"},{"start":4044.78,"end":4046.78,"text":"原則的概念把它表達出來"},{"start":4046.78,"end":4048.78,"text":"但是戲幕的時候"},{"start":4048.78,"end":4050.78,"text":"在執行上"},{"start":4050.78,"end":4052.78,"text":"我們委員目前在母法上的版本"},{"start":4052.78,"end":4054.78,"text":"會有一些些現實上"},{"start":4054.78,"end":4056.78,"text":"不太一樣的地方,比如說好了"},{"start":4056.78,"end":4058.78,"text":"因為它這裡面"},{"start":4058.78,"end":4060.78,"text":"它的貨制,第二項的貨制"},{"start":4060.78,"end":4062.78,"text":"貨其它不適合"},{"start":4062.78,"end":4064.78,"text":"種植農作物"},{"start":4064.78,"end":4066.78,"text":"物質之堆置"},{"start":4066.78,"end":4068.78,"text":"這就想像的是"},{"start":4068.78,"end":4070.78,"text":"是種植農作物"},{"start":4070.78,"end":4072.78,"text":"但是漁溫"},{"start":4072.78,"end":4074.78,"text":"它那個土地不是要種植農作物的"},{"start":4074.78,"end":4076.78,"text":"所以適合在"},{"start":4076.78,"end":4078.78,"text":"漁溫當中"},{"start":4078.78,"end":4080.78,"text":"他們那些可能在漁溫跟漁溫之間"},{"start":4080.78,"end":4082.78,"text":"它需要有一些"},{"start":4082.78,"end":4084.78,"text":"人走的"},{"start":4084.57,"end":4086.57,"text":"那些通道"},{"start":4086.57,"end":4088.57,"text":"或者是說"},{"start":4088.57,"end":4090.57,"text":"小型車輛要去搬運漁獲的這些"},{"start":4090.57,"end":4092.57,"text":"這些路面"},{"start":4092.57,"end":4094.57,"text":"你說它用的這些田的"},{"start":4095.05,"end":4097.05,"text":"物質它可能就不是很農作物"},{"start":4098.68,"end":4100.68,"text":"這是很明顯的"},{"start":4100.68,"end":4102.68,"text":"因為我們在養殖地區"},{"start":4102.68,"end":4104.68,"text":"很多漁溫的養殖業者"},{"start":4104.68,"end":4106.68,"text":"他們在漁溫跟漁溫之間"},{"start":4106.68,"end":4108.68,"text":"他們需要人員搬運工具"},{"start":4108.68,"end":4110.68,"text":"出入的時候"},{"start":4110.68,"end":4112.68,"text":"他需要去填出一條走道"},{"start":4112.64,"end":4114.64,"text":"那這個走道它不可能用優質的"},{"start":4114.64,"end":4116.64,"text":"種植農作物的"},{"start":4116.64,"end":4118.64,"text":"物質嘛"},{"start":4118.64,"end":4120.64,"text":"那這種情況之下"},{"start":4120.64,"end":4122.64,"text":"它既然是農業用地"},{"start":4122.64,"end":4124.64,"text":"它也維持農業生產的功能"},{"start":4124.64,"end":4126.64,"text":"它做漁溫使用"},{"start":4126.64,"end":4128.64,"text":"但是你限制它"},{"start":4128.64,"end":4130.64,"text":"漁溫的這些必要的設施"},{"start":4130.64,"end":4132.64,"text":"限制要在不能夠用那些"},{"start":4132.64,"end":4134.64,"text":"不適合種植農作物的物質"},{"start":4134.64,"end":4136.64,"text":"那這恐怕就會造成"},{"start":4136.64,"end":4138.64,"text":"漁溫在淨營上他們的困難"},{"start":4138.64,"end":4140.64,"text":"它不可能把隔壁聯務員的優質土壤"},{"start":4140.64,"end":4142.64,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分"},{"start":4142.64,"end":4144.64,"text":"主席也在觀察"},{"start":4144.64,"end":4146.64,"text":"在看"},{"start":4147.59,"end":4149.59,"text":"條文的用意是很好"},{"start":4149.59,"end":4151.59,"text":"但是他的表達的時候"},{"start":4151.59,"end":4153.59,"text":"他們有涵蓋到所有的農業生產樣態"},{"start":4153.59,"end":4155.59,"text":"那恐怕當我們"},{"start":4155.59,"end":4157.59,"text":"心中想像的是農作物"},{"start":4157.59,"end":4159.59,"text":"種植的農業用途"},{"start":4159.59,"end":4161.59,"text":"的時候你的"},{"start":4161.59,"end":4163.59,"text":"定義所造成的限制"},{"start":4163.59,"end":4165.59,"text":"就會造成其他"},{"start":4165.59,"end":4167.59,"text":"非農作物種植的"},{"start":4167.59,"en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},{"start":4865.5,"end":4867.5,"text":"而不是全盤的活動"},{"start":4867.5,"end":4869.5,"text":"我們應該是怎麼樣去討論"},{"start":4871.02,"end":4873.02,"text":"所以把文字修得更好"},{"start":4873.02,"end":4875.02,"text":"以上"},{"start":4875.84,"end":4877.84,"text":"周家民委"},{"start":4877.84,"end":4879.84,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":4879.84,"end":4881.84,"text":"主席把元雄抓到了"},{"start":4881.12,"end":4883.12,"text":"就是目前"},{"start":4883.12,"end":4885.12,"text":"目前這個條文十之一條"},{"start":4885.12,"end":4889.12,"text":"他是從農法條例施行細則的第二之一條"},{"start":4889.02,"end":4891.02,"text":"那我請主席"},{"start":4891.71,"end":4897.71,"text":"是不是主席可以把農法條例第二之一條把它秀出來"},{"start":4897.39,"end":4901.39,"text":"其實這裡面剛好凸顯的不是現在修法的問題"},{"start":4901.39,"end":4906.39,"text":"是在原來執法的施行細則存在著一個長期困擾"},{"start":4906.39,"end":4909.39,"text":"不同農業用途使用的農民的困擾"},{"start":4909.39,"end":4911.39,"text":"剛剛主席提到說"},{"start":4911.39,"end":4913.39,"text":"這個條文他們正在修為什麼農民就知道"},{"start":4913.39,"end":4917.39,"text":"原來不是出在這次的修法"},{"start":4917.39,"end":4919.39,"text":"出在目前農法條例施行細則第二之一條"},{"start":4919.39,"end":4924.39,"text":"他寫說前條農業用地從事農業使用"},{"start":4924.39,"end":4926.39,"text":"好"},{"start":4926.39,"end":4928.39,"text":"前條農業用地規定在地區"},{"start":4928.36,"end":4930.36,"text":"第二條"},{"start":4930.36,"end":4932.36,"text":"你看一下第二條寫的"},{"start":4932.36,"end":4934.36,"text":"什麼叫做農業用地"},{"start":4934.36,"end":4936.36,"text":"農業用地有包括什麼"},{"start":4936.36,"end":4938.36,"text":"他按照使用分區"},{"start":4938.36,"end":4944.36,"text":"他有林業用地、養殖用地、水利用地、生態保護用地、國土保安地及供農路使用之土地"},{"start":4945.54,"end":4947.54,"text":"這些都是農業用地耶"},{"start":4948.47,"end":4950.47,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4950.47,"end":4952.47,"text":"那這些農業用地通通含設在你第二條之一"},{"start":4953.23,"end":4955.23,"text":"必須"},{"start":4954.73,"end":4956.73,"text":"他如果是做農業使用"},{"start":4956.73,"end":4958.73,"text":"那請教一下"},{"start":4957.89,"end":4959.89,"text":"農路是不是做農業使用"},{"start":4960.77,"end":4962.77,"text":"現在當然是做農業使用"},{"start":4962.77,"end":4964.77,"text":"前一陣子有一次省級部"},{"start":4964.77,"end":4966.77,"text":"來糾正我們農業部"},{"start":4966.77,"end":4970.77,"text":"說我們對於我們的農業災害天然救助辦法當中"},{"start":4970.77,"end":4972.77,"text":"到底他的損害面積"},{"start":4972.77,"end":4974.77,"text":"他的救助金額要根據種植面積去"},{"start":4974.77,"end":4976.77,"text":"結果省級部就挑了毛病"},{"start":4976.77,"end":4978.77,"text":"他根據空照圖"},{"start":4978.77,"end":4982.77,"text":"把我們農民申請農業災害天然救助的那些農地面積"},{"start":4982.77,"end":4984.77,"text":"裡面的農舍"},{"start":4984.77,"end":4986.77,"text":"裡面的農路儲存空間"},{"start":4986.77,"end":4988.77,"text":"通通扣除"},{"start":4988.77,"end":4990.77,"text":"那農民要把這些義齡的金額還給部長"},{"start":4990.77,"end":4992.77,"text":"部長還記得吧"},{"start":4992.62,"end":4994.62,"text":"後來經過農業部的距離力增"},{"start":4994.62,"end":4996.62,"text":"其實也是因為農業部自己的辦法定的"},{"start":4996.62,"end":4998.62,"text":"讓省級部誤以為"},{"start":4998.62,"end":5000.62,"text":"這些農地上的農路"},{"start":5000.62,"end":5002.62,"text":"進出的通道"},{"start":5002.62,"end":5004.62,"text":"跟農業生產無關"},{"start":5004.62,"end":5006.62,"text":"所以把它扣除了"},{"start":5006.62,"end":5008.62,"text":"其實是有關"},{"start":5008.62,"end":5010.62,"text":"那如果農路是跟農業生產有關"},{"start":5010.62,"end":5012.62,"text":"一個農田如果沒有農路的話怎麼耕作"},{"start":5012.4,"end":5014.4,"text":"那你這個農物也是農業用地"},{"start":5014.4,"end":5016.4,"text":"請問這個農業用地按照你二條之一"},{"start":5016.4,"end":5018.4,"text":"那是要什麼"},{"start":5018.4,"end":5020.4,"text":"要用"},{"start":5019.67,"end":5021.67,"text":"適合農業生產的"},{"start":5021.85,"end":5023.85,"text":"優質土壤區"},{"start":5023.8,"end":5025.8,"text":"你這是整死農民的農民在農地上"},{"start":5025.8,"end":5027.8,"text":"一整塊農地"},{"start":5027.8,"end":5029.8,"text":"他什麼時候他會去"},{"start":5029.8,"end":5031.8,"text":"一整地的時候去撿嘛"},{"start":5031.8,"end":5033.8,"text":"就算種西瓜 裡面西瓜"},{"start":5033.8,"end":5035.8,"text":"也有九頭嘛"},{"start":5034.91,"end":5036.91,"text":"他會把九頭撿來做"},{"start":5036.91,"end":5038.91,"text":"他出的農村才會出農路嘛"},{"start":5038.91,"end":5040.91,"text":"所以他一定會怎樣"},{"start":5040.91,"end":5042.91,"text":"他一定會有的地方好"},{"start":5042.91,"end":5044.91,"text":"有的地方吞"},{"start":5044.91,"end":5046.91,"text":"然後把那種沒有設計的九頭"},{"start":5046.91,"end":5048.91,"text":"他就撿做農路"},{"start":5048.91,"end":5050.91,"text":"那教練現在不要說現在就罰了"},{"start":5051.76,"end":5053.76,"text":"原來的你們的施行細則"},{"start":5053.76,"end":5055.76,"text":"就有可能讓農民因為出萬了二條之一"},{"start":5056.89,"end":5058.89,"text":"被你們根據農法條例去處罰"},{"start":5058.89,"end":5060.89,"text":"所以問題不是出在現在委員的版本"},{"start":5060.89,"end":5062.89,"text":"出在我們農法條例當初"},{"start":5062.89,"end":5064.89,"text":"二條之一忽略了"},{"start":5064.89,"end":5066.89,"text":"剛剛我們說的這些情況"},{"start":5066.89,"end":5068.89,"text":"他說前一條農業用地"},{"start":5068.89,"end":5070.89,"text":"這裡面包括農路喔"},{"start":5070.89,"end":5072.89,"text":"從事農業使用"},{"start":5072.89,"end":5074.89,"text":"農路也是從事農業使用喔"},{"start":5074.89,"end":5076.89,"text":"而有田土需要者 農路要不要田"},{"start":5076.89,"end":5078.89,"text":"要田阿 你田土的土質"},{"start":5078.89,"end":5080.89,"text":"應該適合農業種植農作物之土壤"},{"start":5083.03,"end":5083.53,"text":"對阿"},{"start":5084.05,"end":5085.05,"text":"我事過於農"},{"start":5085.05,"end":5086.55,"text":"事過於農來得"},{"start":5086.55,"end":5088.55,"text":"我要出農村才要出農路"},{"start":5088.55,"end":5090.55,"text":"我已經是用九頭去吞了"},{"start":5091.83,"end":5092.33,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5092.33,"end":5093.83,"text":"阿這你還規定要用什麼"},{"start":5093.83,"end":5094.83,"text":"優質土壤"},{"start":5094.83,"end":5096.83,"text":"所以顯然的問題不是出在什麼"},{"start":5096.83,"end":5098.33,"text":"不是出在母法"},{"start":5098.33,"end":5099.83,"text":"是出在施行細則當中"},{"start":5099.83,"end":5100.83,"text":"二條之一"},{"start":5100.83,"end":5102.83,"text":"的確有在施行上有一些"},{"start":5102.83,"end":5104.33,"text":"致害難行之處"},{"start":5104.33,"end":5106.83,"text":"所以或許我們應該要求農業部"},{"start":5106.83,"end":5108.33,"text":"把二條之一的施行細則"},{"start":5108.33,"end":5109.83,"text":"好好的檢視一下"},{"start":5109.83,"end":5111.83,"text":"不然你二條之一講的農業用地"},{"start":5111.79,"end":5112.79,"text":"水利用地算不算"},{"start":5112.79,"end":5113.29,"text":"是啊"},{"start":5114.27,"end":5114.77,"text":"啊"},{"start":5115.82,"end":5116.82,"text":"農業用地什麼算"},{"start":5116.82,"end":5117.32,"text":"是啊"},{"start":5118,"end":5119.5,"text":"農路是做農業使用的"},{"start":5119.5,"end":5120,"text":"是啊"},{"start":5120,"end":5121.5,"text":"做農業使用的農路"},{"start":5121.5,"end":5123,"text":"不能用石頭去填"},{"start":5123,"end":5124,"text":"你告訴我用什麼填"},{"start":5125.36,"end":5127.36,"text":"不過這個在他們農法條例的"},{"start":5127.36,"end":5129.36,"text":"八之一條第三項"},{"start":5129.36,"end":5131.36,"text":"大概就有授權訂定了"},{"start":5131.77,"end":5133.77,"text":"因為你們在申請農業用地"},{"start":5133.77,"end":5136.27,"text":"農業設施容許使用審查辦法"},{"start":5136.27,"end":5138.27,"text":"還有對這些農路什麼這些的"},{"start":5138.27,"end":5140.27,"text":"有去做設施的審查規定"},{"start":5140.27,"end":5141.27,"text":"有啦"},{"start":5141.27,"end":5141.77,"text":"所以說"},{"start":5141.77,"end":5143.77,"text":"他在八之一條第三項這邊"},{"start":5145.42,"end":5146.42,"text":"就是因為有困擾"},{"start":5146.42,"end":5148.42,"text":"我們才會過來關心這個題目"},{"start":5148.42,"end":5149.92,"text":"我想謝謝委員"},{"start":5149.92,"end":5151.92,"text":"我想我們的目標都是一次的啦"},{"start":5151.92,"end":5152.92,"text":"包括剛才委員講的"},{"start":5152.92,"end":5156.42,"text":"我從來沒有為反對而反對的部分"},{"start":5156.42,"end":5157.92,"text":"那我這邊考慮"},{"start":5157.92,"end":5160.42,"text":"我剛才一開始也特別提到就是說"},{"start":5160.42,"end":5162.42,"text":"因為填土的時候"},{"start":5162.42,"end":5164.42,"text":"會有各種不同的樣態"},{"start":5164.42,"end":5166.42,"text":"那如果在摸法寫的時候"},{"start":5166.42,"end":5167.92,"text":"就會很容易"},{"start":5168.42,"end":5169.92,"text":"就是把他鎖住了"},{"start":5169.92,"end":5171.92,"text":"包括營建土石方"},{"start":5171.92,"end":5174.42,"text":"那營建土石方經過土資廠"},{"start":5174.42,"end":5177.42,"text":"去萃出來的適合農地的土壤"},{"start":5177.42,"end":5178.42,"text":"他還是可以用"},{"start":5178.42,"end":5180.42,"text":"但是我也說過"},{"start":5180.42,"end":5182.92,"text":"我們現在的實施細則二之一條"},{"start":5182.92,"end":5184.92,"text":"也應該要檢討"},{"start":5184.92,"end":5186.92,"text":"而這個檢討是應該放在"},{"start":5186.92,"end":5188.92,"text":"實施細則裡面去做一個"},{"start":5188.92,"end":5191.42,"text":"更詳細的解釋跟分類"},{"start":5191.42,"end":5193.92,"text":"而不是說放在摸法裡面"},{"start":5193.92,"end":5195.42,"text":"我這邊只是建議說"},{"start":5195.42,"end":5196.42,"text":"不要放在摸法"},{"start":5196.42,"end":5197.92,"text":"放在實施細則二"},{"start":5197.92,"end":5199.92,"text":"我們可以非常認真地"},{"start":5199.92,"end":5201.42,"text":"再跟大家來討論"},{"start":5202.58,"end":5204.08,"text":"好 正天查委員"},{"start":5207.98,"end":5208.98,"text":"這個"},{"start":5210.79,"end":5211.79,"text":"因為你現在的"},{"start":5212.5,"end":5213.5,"text":"施行細則"},{"start":5213.5,"end":5214.5,"text":"農業發展條例"},{"start":5214.5,"end":5217,"text":"施行細則第二條之一"},{"start":5218.41,"end":5219.41,"text":"最後一項"},{"start":5220.35,"end":5222.35,"text":"違反前項規定者"},{"start":5222.35,"end":5226.35,"text":"就是前面的土石 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rt":5445.74,"end":5446.74,"text":"有做畜牧的"},{"start":5446.74,"end":5447.74,"text":"有做保育的"},{"start":5449,"end":5451,"text":"然後最關鍵的是第二目"},{"start":5451,"end":5454,"text":"他說工農業經營不可分離之農舍"},{"start":5454.94,"end":5455.94,"text":"敘情色"},{"start":5456.39,"end":5457.39,"text":"倉儲設施"},{"start":5457.39,"end":5458.39,"text":"賽場"},{"start":5458.39,"end":5459.39,"text":"集貨場"},{"start":5459.39,"end":5460.39,"text":"農路"},{"start":5460.39,"end":5461.39,"text":"灌溉"},{"start":5461.39,"end":5462.39,"text":"排水"},{"start":5462.39,"end":5463.39,"text":"及其他農用之土地"},{"start":5463.39,"end":5466.39,"text":"我們很清楚農業有包括什麼"},{"start":5466.39,"end":5467.39,"text":"有包括敘情色"},{"start":5467.83,"end":5468.83,"text":"敘牧有敘情色"},{"start":5468.83,"end":5470.83,"text":"有包括養殖"},{"start":5470.83,"end":5471.83,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5471.83,"end":5473.83,"text":"然後農作物要有灌溉跟排水"},{"start":5473.83,"end":5474.83,"text":"還有農路"},{"start":5474.83,"end":5477.83,"text":"這些都涵蓋在農業用地的範圍"},{"start":5477.83,"end":5479.83,"text":"結果你們的母馬農法條例"},{"start":5479.83,"end":5480.83,"text":"第三條"},{"start":5480.83,"end":5482.83,"text":"第一項第十款"},{"start":5482.83,"end":5484.83,"text":"第一第二目"},{"start":5484.83,"end":5487.83,"text":"這些都是農業用地"},{"start":5487.83,"end":5489.83,"text":"結果你們在第二條之一"},{"start":5490.38,"end":5492.38,"text":"你們在施行細則第二條之一寫了什麼"},{"start":5493.45,"end":5494.45,"text":"就寫說"},{"start":5494.45,"end":5496.45,"text":"前向農業用地"},{"start":5497.06,"end":5499.06,"text":"前向農業用地就是剛講的那些"},{"start":5499.06,"end":5500.06,"text":"在母馬裡面規定的"},{"start":5500.06,"end":5502.06,"text":"都必須要填土需要時"},{"start":5502.06,"end":5503.06,"text":"他填的土壤"},{"start":5503.06,"end":5505.06,"text":"因為適合種植的農作物"},{"start":5505.62,"end":5507.62,"text":"請問一下如果我的農業用地我是做敘情色"},{"start":5508.93,"end":5510.93,"text":"我那裡比較低我怕淹水"},{"start":5510.95,"end":5512.95,"text":"我要填敘情色來蓋敘情色的土壤"},{"start":5512.95,"end":5514.95,"text":"需要是要適合種植的嗎"},{"start":5514.95,"end":5516.95,"text":"所以問題不是出在農法條例"},{"start":5516.95,"end":5518.95,"text":"農法條例後來的修正"},{"start":5518.95,"end":5521.95,"text":"已經符合貼近了我們農業生產現場的需求"},{"start":5521.95,"end":5524.95,"text":"但是你們原來施行細則的二之一"},{"start":5524.95,"end":5525.95,"text":"沒有跟得動"},{"start":5525.95,"end":5527.95,"text":"以至於他的含色範圍"},{"start":5527.95,"end":5531.95,"text":"把我剛剛所說的那些農業用地"},{"start":5531.95,"end":5536.95,"text":"通通狹隘的局限在農業種植的思考當中"},{"start":5536.95,"end":5538.95,"text":"所以我是建議符合我們邱委員的"},{"start":5538.95,"end":5541.95,"text":"是不是請農業部去想一下"},{"start":5541.95,"end":5543.95,"text":"你的施行細則二之一條要怎麼改"},{"start":5543.95,"end":5547.95,"text":"不是我們把一個不符合農法條例第三條的"},{"start":5547.95,"end":5549.95,"text":"施行細則二之一條"},{"start":5549.95,"end":5551.95,"text":"拿回來裝在我們的地"},{"start":5552.7,"end":5553.7,"text":"60條"},{"start":5554.54,"end":5556.54,"text":"我是具體這樣建議去調整"},{"start":5557.39,"end":5558.39,"text":"來 楊瓊宇委員"},{"start":5560.21,"end":5561.21,"text":"部長"},{"start":5561.21,"end":5563.21,"text":"我們有時候思考議題"},{"start":5563.21,"end":5566.21,"text":"這個對針對第十條之一的爭議有兩個"},{"start":5567.43,"end":5569.43,"text":"第一個內容對執行"},{"start":5570.11,"end":5573.11,"text":"執行的成效會如何"},{"start":5573.11,"end":5576.11,"text":"有沒有什麼可通或者是致愛難行的部分"},{"start":5576.11,"end":5578.11,"text":"明瞭說明的是這個"},{"start":5578.11,"end":5579.11,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":5581.61,"end":5583.61,"text":"將它列入牟法"},{"start":5583.85,"end":5586.85,"text":"跟你長期都在施行細則"},{"start":5588.86,"end":5591.86,"text":"你們的成效又是如何"},{"start":5591.86,"end":5592.86,"text":"因為到目前為止"},{"start":5592.86,"end":5595.86,"text":"衍生了這麼多的社會議題"},{"start":5595.86,"end":5597.86,"text":"也因為技術"},{"start":5598.03,"end":5602.03,"text":"氣候等等情境條件的一個改變"},{"start":5602.03,"end":5605.03,"text":"如果只依照目前你們的"},{"start":5605.03,"end":5608.03,"text":"執行施行細則來執行之"},{"start":5608.03,"end":5611.03,"text":"難怪會出這樣的一個社會現象"},{"start":5611.03,"end":5613.03,"text":"那麼討論到現在"},{"start":5614.06,"end":5616.06,"text":"我個人也非常認為就是說"},{"start":5616.06,"end":5620.06,"text":"我們定法目的就是要讓執行者"},{"start":5620.06,"end":5621.06,"text":"能夠執行"},{"start":5622.02,"end":5627.02,"text":"讓遵循者能夠有規可遵循"},{"start":5627.02,"end":5628.02,"text":"有法規可遵循"},{"start":5628.02,"end":5629.02,"text":"這非常重要"},{"start":5629.02,"end":5630.02,"text":"所以我要請教一個議題"},{"start":5630.53,"end":5633.53,"text":"你也意識到在你的施行細則裡頭"},{"start":5633.53,"end":5636.53,"text":"你是沒有辦法去應對目前的樣態"},{"start":5636.53,"end":5638.53,"text":"那請問已經這麼久了"},{"start":5638.53,"end":5640.53,"text":"你什麼時候可以把你的施行細則"},{"start":5640.53,"end":5643.53,"text":"你所拒絕要調整的你提出來"},{"start":5643.53,"end":5644.53,"text":"請問"},{"start":5644.67,"end":5646.67,"text":"你應該要給一個時間"},{"start":5646.67,"end":5648.67,"text":"要不然我們一直卡在這裡"},{"start":5648.67,"end":5650.67,"text":"我們看到社會問題一直呈現這不行的"},{"start":5651.74,"end":5652.74,"text":"來"},{"start":5652.74,"end":5653.74,"text":"你跟我來"},{"start":5653.86,"end":5655.86,"text":"好 第一個部分我想"},{"start":5655.86,"end":5658.86,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒"},{"start":5658.86,"end":5660.86,"text":"我剛才強調就是說"},{"start":5660.86,"end":5662.86,"text":"我們要改是實施細則裡面"},{"start":5662.86,"end":5663.86,"text":"有非常多的細目"},{"start":5663.86,"end":5664.86,"text":"必須要去調整"},{"start":5664.86,"end":5666.86,"text":"才能夠符合現在的一個規範"},{"start":5666.86,"end":5667.86,"text":"那實施細則"},{"start":5667.86,"end":5669.86,"text":"你就是因為你施行細則不行"},{"start":5669.86,"end":5672.86,"text":"所以人家都已經要提出母法"},{"start":5673.51,"end":5674.51,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5674.51,"end":5675.51,"text":"所以你要告訴我們"},{"start":5675.51,"end":5676.51,"text":"你認為不行的"},{"start":5676.51,"end":5677.51,"text":"我想只是細則裡面"},{"start":5677.51,"end":5679.51,"text":"我們一個月到兩個月就可以把它完成"},{"start":5679.51,"end":5680.51,"text":"一個月到兩個月"},{"start":5680.51,"end":5682.51,"text":"一個月到兩個月之間就可以把它做"},{"start":5682.51,"end":5683.51,"text":"那你一個月提出來"},{"start":5683.51,"end":5685.51,"text":"這個這麼重要的時候"},{"start":5685.51,"end":5686.51,"text":"可以 我們一個月把它提出來"},{"start":5686.51,"end":5688.51,"text":"那我是不是充分建議"},{"start":5688.51,"end":5691.51,"text":"我覺得也不能停滯在這裡"},{"start":5691.51,"end":5693.51,"text":"因為這個問題不解決不行的"},{"start":5693.51,"end":5696.51,"text":"所以我認為因為包刮帶69條"},{"start":5696.51,"end":5698.51,"text":"後面的69條是依照"},{"start":5698.51,"end":5701.51,"text":"違反第10條之一的這個情況"},{"start":5701.51,"end":5704.51,"text":"所以這兩條是不是你們就承諾喔"},{"start":5704.51,"end":5708.51,"text":"在一個月內要提出你們的方案"},{"start":5708.51,"end":5711.51,"text":"我個人認為這個是可以保留送協商"},{"start":5711.51,"end":5713.51,"text":"就運用在這一個月內"},{"start":5713.51,"end":5715.51,"text":"我們去討論去調整"},{"start":5715.51,"end":5716.51,"text":"這樣好嗎"},{"start":5716.51,"end":5717.51,"text":"可以"},{"start":5721.45,"end":5722.45,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5723.52,"end":5725.52,"text":"我告訴你一個實在的"},{"start":5725.52,"end":5728.52,"text":"你的母法裡面把這個設死掉了"},{"start":5728.52,"end":5729.52,"text":"你實行細則的話"},{"start":5729.52,"end":5731.52,"text":"你做出來不完整"},{"start":5732.11,"end":5734.11,"text":"因為你們做這樣的做法"},{"start":5734.11,"end":5735.11,"text":"是在保護你自己"},{"start":5735.11,"end":5737.11,"text":"怕被人家攻擊"},{"start":5737.11,"end":5739.11,"text":"那我現在跟你講幾個重點"},{"start":5739.11,"end":5741.11,"text":"你什麼叫做天然年土"},{"start":5741.87,"end":5743.87,"text":"什麼叫做四合龍"},{"start":5744.91,"end":5748.91,"text":"四合龍就只有機制改良圖外"},{"start":5748.91,"end":5750.91,"text":"沒有確切的標準"},{"start":5750.91,"end":5752.91,"text":"我也跟你講實際地方的情形"},{"start":5753.76,"end":5757.76,"text":"在台中以北如果挖地下室的那個土壤"},{"start":5758.47,"end":5759.47,"text":"在北部"},{"start":5760.86,"end":5763.86,"text":"四月回去被抓到滑的很慘"},{"start":5763.86,"end":5769.86,"text":"所以這些台北的地下室挖的那個土壤"},{"start":5769.86,"end":5770.86,"text":"都送到南部去"},{"start":5770.86,"end":5774.86,"text":"南部縣政府認可沒有事情"},{"start":5774.86,"end":5777.86,"text":"一口兩字你可能不知道這個情形"},{"start":5778.39,"end":5779.39,"text":"第二個"},{"start":5779.39,"end":5783.39,"text":"我覺得你現在這種土方的來源"},{"start":5783.39,"end":5785.39,"text":"天然的沿途外"},{"start":5785.39,"end":5786.39,"text":"還在北那裡"},{"start":5787.57,"end":5789.57,"text":"水土保存法去挖了一塊"},{"start":5789.57,"end":5791.57,"text":"你們就花錢了"},{"start":5791.57,"end":5792.57,"text":"百姓不管挖"},{"start":5792.57,"end":5796.57,"text":"現在土方要添土的主要來源是什麼"},{"start":5796.57,"end":5799.57,"text":"就是地下室的土方"},{"start":5799.57,"end":5802.57,"text":"還有一個營建廢棄物的一個"},{"start":5802.57,"end":5805.57,"text":"支援在分裂的時候"},{"start":5805.57,"end":5807.57,"text":"打脆了再分裂"},{"start":5807.57,"end":5808.57,"text":"那個是可以用的"},{"start":5809.64,"end":5811.64,"text":"但是你得叫人把屍體啊"},{"start":5812.1,"end":5814.1,"text":"我是跟你講地方實際的情形"},{"start":5814.89,"end":5816.89,"text":"阿今次去跟你那兒無法再"},{"start":5816.89,"end":5818.89,"text":"你實行信水都沒有改"},{"start":5820.05,"end":5822.05,"text":"我確實發生了一個很嚴重"},{"start":5822.05,"end":5825.05,"text":"台中以北都當作是營建廢棄物"},{"start":5825.57,"end":5828.57,"text":"台中以南都當作一般土方"},{"start":5828.57,"end":5829.57,"text":"兩種標準"},{"start":5831.49,"end":5833.49,"text":"讓大家無所遵循"},{"start":5833.49,"end":5836.49,"text":"很多人說南部怎麼會有北部的"},{"start":5836.49,"end":5837.49,"text":"我也覺得莫名其妙"},{"start":5837.49,"end":5839.49,"text":"原來問題在這個地方"},{"start":5840.42,"end":5842.42,"text":"他們當初講的不清楚"},{"start":5843.13,"end":5845.13,"text":"因為挖地下室的土方"},{"start":5845.13,"end":5847.13,"text":"有很多是乾淨的"},{"start":5847.13,"end":5850.13,"text":"但是南美有一兩塊磚塊"},{"start":5850.13,"end":5852.13,"text":"你曉得警方會壓不住的嗎"},{"start":5852.13,"end":5854.13,"text":"只要一大片旅居裡面"},{"start":5854.13,"end":5856.13,"text":"找出三四個磚塊"},{"start":5856.13,"end":5858.13,"text":"就說這個是廢棄物處理"},{"start":5858.13,"end":5860.13,"text":"就用廢棄物的方法來處罰百姓"},{"start":5861.6,"end":5863.6,"text":"哪裡有照顧老民"},{"start":5863.54,"end":5865.54,"text":"黑豬叫做不敢張嘗"},{"start":5865.98,"end":5869.98,"text":"你們要做這樣的事情"},{"start":5869.98,"end":5871.98,"text":"把它分裂得很清楚"},{"start":5871.98,"end":5873.98,"text":"一有事的話你們就講"},{"start":5873.98,"end":5874.98,"text":"我還不可以啊"},{"start":5874.98,"end":5875.98,"text":"你怎麼可以這麼做"},{"start":5876.46,"end":5878.46,"text":"這個問題確實很嚴重"},{"start":5878.46,"end":5880.46,"text":"不是要跟你爹辯論這裡有沒有"},{"start":5881.68,"end":5883.68,"text":"小蓋 略殘啊"},{"start":5884.55,"end":5885.55,"text":"你說去哪兒"},{"start":5885.55,"end":5886.55,"text":"幹嘛去哪兒"},{"start":5888.06,"end":5890.06,"text":"那個沿途來"},{"start":5890.06,"end":5891.06,"text":"要帶他去你告訴我"},{"start":5891.06,"end":5892.06,"text":"拴你的沿途"},{"start":5892.06,"end":5894.06,"text":"我想報告天然沿途不是我寫的"},{"start":5894.06,"end":5895.06,"text":"不是你寫的"},{"start":5895.06,"end":5896.06,"text":"以前的人教的"},{"start":5896.06,"end":5897.06,"text":"你寫的"},{"start":5897.06,"end":5898.06,"text":"所以我"},{"start":5898.06,"end":5899.06,"text":"這些委員的提議"},{"start":5899.06,"end":5901.06,"text":"我就是沒什麼叫做天然"},{"start":5901.06,"end":5902.06,"text":"我問你"},{"start":5902.72,"end":5905.72,"text":"你玩地下室的土是不是天然的土"},{"start":5906.75,"end":5908.75,"text":"定義的裁定"},{"start":5908.75,"end":5909.75,"text":"隨便你們講"},{"start":5909.75,"end":5910.75,"text":"隨便你們寫"},{"start":5910.75,"end":5912.75,"text":"真的要撤離改革的時候"},{"start":5912.75,"end":5913.75,"text":"拜託一下"},{"start":5913.75,"end":5914.75,"text":"我剛才已經承諾"},{"start":5914.75,"end":5916.75,"text":"就是我們在實施細則裡面"},{"start":5916.75,"end":5919.75,"text":"的確有很多東西必須要更釐清"},{"start":5919.75,"end":5920.75,"text":"寫得更詳細的"},{"start":5920.75,"end":5923.75,"text":"那相關的這個釐清跟樣態"},{"start":5923.75,"end":5924.75,"text":"跟分類的部分"},{"start":5924.75,"end":5925.75,"text":"如果在實施細則"},{"start":5925.75,"end":5927.75,"text":"可以寫得比較詳細"},{"start":5927.75,"end":5929.75,"text":"所以我建議就是跟"},{"start":5929.75,"end":5930.75,"text":"剛才委員所建議的部分"},{"start":5930.75,"end":5931.75,"text":"我們在一個月之內"},{"start":5931.75,"end":5932.75,"text":"會把這個"},{"start":5932.75,"end":5935.75,"text":"很詳細的處理的方式提出來"},{"start":5936.69,"end":5939.69,"text":"好 第十條之一的話"},{"start":5939.69,"end":5941.69,"text":"我們主席保留宋學生"},{"start":5944.96,"end":5945.96,"text":"現在請念"},{"start":5945.96,"end":5946.96,"text":"跟第69條"},{"start":5946.96,"end":5947.96,"text":"一起保留宋學生"},{"start":5947.96,"end":5949.96,"text":"還有69條修正動議"},{"start":5953.14,"end":5955.14,"text":"修正動議是對其罰則而已"},{"start":5955.14,"end":5957.14,"text":"對準屠宰法的罰則而已"},{"start":5957.14,"end":5958.14,"text":"那個部長"},{"start":5958.14,"end":5960.14,"text":"那你一個月內一定要提出喔"},{"start":5961.41,"end":5963.41,"text":"因為他跨了三個部門"},{"start":5963.41,"end":5964.41,"text":"一定 一定"},{"start":5964.41,"end":5967.41,"text":"一定要整體去做對照"},{"start":5967.41,"end":5968.41,"text":"跟"},{"start":5968.41,"end":5973.41,"text":"我希望在法條協章期限結束之前"},{"start":5973.41,"end":5974.41,"text":"我們一定會提出來"},{"start":5974.41,"end":5975.41,"text":"對 一個月嘛"},{"start":5975.41,"end":5977.41,"text":"對 因為門洞期就一個月"},{"start":5977.41,"end":5978.41,"text":"他提出他的方案啦"},{"start":5985.76,"end":5986.76,"text":"第十條之一跟"},{"start":5986.76,"end":5987.76,"text":"因為第69條會"},{"start":5987.76,"end":5989.76,"text":"還有修正動議"},{"start":5989.76,"end":5990.76,"text":"會連動"},{"start":5990.76,"end":5991.76,"text":"對"},{"start":5993.88,"end":5994.88,"text":"好 接下來的話"},{"start":5994.88,"end":5996.88,"text":"我們進行第60條"},{"start":5998.2,"end":6000.2,"text":"那我再跟各位委員複習一下"},{"start":6000.2,"end":6002.2,"text":"因為第60條我剛剛看過"},{"start":6002.2,"end":6004.2,"text":"就是跟剛剛我們第"},{"start":6004.2,"end":6007.2,"text":"第3條的第19款的這些定義"},{"start":6007.2,"end":6010.2,"text":"天然菜還要訂到這邊來"},{"start":6010.2,"end":6011.2,"text":"所以這邊就請"},{"start":6012.29,"end":6014.29,"text":"剛剛剛有說明過"},{"start":6014.29,"end":6015.29,"text":"對 說過了"},{"start":6016.46,"end":6017.46,"text":"還有再說明"},{"start":6021.12,"end":6022.12,"text":"第60條來"},{"start":6022.12,"end":6023.12,"text":"第60條"},{"start":6023.12,"end":6024.12,"text":"為什麼要保留"},{"start":6024.12,"end":6025.12,"text":"沒有要保留"},{"start":6026.8,"end":6027.8,"text":"現在改啊"},{"start":6027.8,"end":6028.8,"text":"現在就可以了啊"},{"start":6028.8,"end":6029.8,"text":"我要跟委員報告"},{"start":6030.75,"end":6031.75,"text":"我當然都知道"},{"start":6031.75,"end":6032.75,"text":"包括我們自己農業補給之下"},{"start":6032.75,"end":6035.75,"text":"一定是農民受到了一些天然災害"},{"start":6035.75,"end":6039.75,"text":"或您所關切的一些動物的影響的時候"},{"start":6039.75,"end":6041.75,"text":"一定要想辦法去協助嘛"},{"start":6041.75,"end":6043.75,"text":"可是相對的法一定的時候"},{"start":6043.75,"end":6045.75,"text":"一定要它可執行性啦"},{"start":6045.75,"end":6048.75,"text":"那天然災害的部分是沒問題"},{"start":6048.75,"end":6049.75,"text":"我們很有經驗的"},{"start":6049.75,"end":6052.75,"text":"那天然災害導致的病蟲害的部分"},{"start":6052.75,"end":6053.75,"text":"我想我們也沒問題"},{"start":6053.75,"end":6054.75,"text":"可以去如果認定"},{"start":6054.75,"end":6055.75,"text":"但是唯一的就是"},{"start":6055.75,"end":6057.75,"text":"李委員所提到動物性"},{"start":6057.75,"end":6059.75,"text":"特別是野生動物的部分"},{"start":6059.75,"end":6062.75,"text":"因為它的危害本身的樣態"},{"start":6062.75,"end":6064.75,"text":"跟它未來認定"},{"start":6064.75,"end":6066.75,"text":"這個我們大概已經花了兩個月的時間"},{"start":6066.75,"end":6069.75,"text":"在內部討論也跟外界做溝通"},{"start":6069.75,"end":6073.75,"text":"還沒有辦法有一個很明確的認定的標準"},{"start":6073.75,"end":6075.75,"text":"因為沒有認定標準就沒辦法執行啊"},{"start":6075.75,"end":6077.75,"text":"所以我認為這個部分"},{"start":6077.75,"end":6080.75,"text":"我們把那個天然災害所引起的這個"},{"start":6080.75,"end":6083.75,"text":"這個植物病蟲害的部分納入是OK的"},{"start":6083.75,"end":6085.75,"text":"但是如果把動物"},{"start":6085.75,"end":6087.75,"text":"野生動物進去的時候"},{"start":6088.75,"end":6090.75,"text":"那就會比較還有保育動物"},{"start":6090.75,"end":6092.75,"text":"因為有的圍一些保育動物啦"},{"start":6092.75,"end":6094.75,"text":"那猴子不是保育類的喔"},{"start":6094.75,"end":6097.75,"text":"那就會有非常非常的不同的動物出來了"},{"start":6097.75,"end":6100.75,"text":"所以這個部分我想動物的部分"},{"start":6100.75,"end":6101.75,"text":"是不是可以先不放"},{"start":6101.75,"end":6103.75,"text":"放在這個條文裡面"},{"start":6107.04,"end":6109.04,"text":"好 部長"},{"start":6109.04,"end":6111.04,"text":"你是不是有請教過專家嘛"},{"start":6111.04,"end":6113.04,"text":"專家就認不對我們這個條文呢"},{"start":6113.04,"end":6115.04,"text":"針對動物這邊有討論過"},{"start":6115.04,"end":6117.04,"text":"我講的就是說"},{"start":6117.04,"end":6119.04,"text":"因為我當初就承諾說"},{"start":6119.04,"end":6121.04,"text":"我一定要想辦法把猴害嘛"},{"start":6121.04,"end":6124.04,"text":"想辦法納入我們可以救助的一個方式"},{"start":6124.04,"end":6126.04,"text":"那就會討論到說"},{"start":6126.16,"end":6129.16,"text":"在什麼情況之下才會啟動這個救助"},{"start":6129.16,"end":6131.16,"text":"我們也請教過了很多農民"},{"start":6131.16,"end":6134.16,"text":"在座談會裡面每個人講話都不一樣"},{"start":6135.58,"end":6139.58,"text":"他是單塊田看還是普遍性的看"},{"start":6139.58,"end":6141.58,"text":"每一個農民的想法都不一樣"},{"start":6141.58,"end":6143.58,"text":"所以這個部分是非常"},{"start":6143.58,"end":6145.58,"text":"就是要聚集成一個"},{"start":6145.58,"end":6147.58,"text":"有共識而且可執行"},{"start":6147.58,"end":6149.58,"text":"我說法一定要可執行啦"},{"start":6149.58,"end":6151.58,"text":"那現階段這個部分"},{"start":6151.58,"end":6152.58,"text":"還真的是很難處理"},{"start":6152.58,"end":6153.58,"text":"我們還在努力當中"},{"start":6154.5,"end":6156.5,"text":"主席我建議好不好"},{"start":6156.5,"end":6158.5,"text":"因為你也找過專家"},{"start":6158.5,"end":6160.5,"text":"保育類的動物"},{"start":6160.5,"end":6162.5,"text":"不只是保育類"},{"start":6162.5,"end":6164.5,"text":"你剛剛講的還有猴子嘛"},{"start":6164.5,"end":6166.5,"text":"這些你都請專家都研究過了"},{"start":6166.5,"end":6168.5,"text":"這個問題都很久了"},{"start":6168.5,"end":6170.5,"text":"那可不可以一樣一個月內"},{"start":6170.5,"end":6172.5,"text":"你們研究出來"},{"start":6172.5,"end":6174.5,"text":"我們先保留你研究出來"},{"start":6174.86,"end":6176.86,"text":"一個月可以嗎"},{"start":6179.82,"end":6181.82,"text":"一個月"},{"start":6181.82,"end":6183.82,"text":"我剛才說的"},{"start":6183.82,"end":6185.82,"text":"像這個特別是比較重要的動物性的危害"},{"start":6185.82,"end":6187.82,"text":"我們一定要想辦法啟動一個機制去救助"},{"start":6187.82,"end":6189.82,"text":"我已經承諾這個"},{"start":6189.82,"end":6191.82,"text":"但是我現在就是說"},{"start":6191.82,"end":6193.82,"text":"我的問題是我在執行面"},{"start":6193.82,"end":6195.82,"text":"還沒有辦法找到一個基準"},{"start":6195.82,"end":6197.82,"text":"是可以"},{"start":6197.82,"end":6199.82,"text":"這個一個月就動不到"},{"start":6199.82,"end":6201.82,"text":"這個基準有哪些動物會危害"},{"start":6201.82,"end":6203.82,"text":"這個都很明確的"},{"start":6203.82,"end":6205.82,"text":"農民都清楚哪些動物"},{"start":6205.82,"end":6207.82,"text":"專家也都清楚"},{"start":6207.82,"end":6209.82,"text":"這是動物的危害"},{"start":6209.82,"end":6211.82,"text":"很難去計算"},{"start":6211.6,"end":6213.6,"text":"因為天才不是說你一張手"},{"start":6213.6,"end":6215.6,"text":"加年水果"},{"start":6215.6,"end":6217.6,"text":"很要賠償"},{"start":6217.6,"end":6219.6,"text":"這個就沒完沒了"},{"start":6219.3,"end":6221.3,"text":"然後你講的動物"},{"start":6221.3,"end":6223.3,"text":"你們都會有專家在鑑定"},{"start":6223.3,"end":6225.3,"text":"不會去考核"},{"start":6224.73,"end":6226.73,"text":"這個就是我們有包括您講的"},{"start":6226.73,"end":6228.73,"text":"保育類動物"},{"start":6228.73,"end":6230.73,"text":"野生動物"},{"start":6230.42,"end":6232.42,"text":"那夠了"},{"start":6232.07,"end":6234.07,"text":"因為也有一些地區不是被控"},{"start":6234.07,"end":6236.07,"text":"所以他"},{"start":6236.07,"end":6238.07,"text":"通牌把列入來研究"},{"start":6238.07,"end":6240.07,"text":"每一個樣態是不一樣的"},{"start":6240.07,"end":6242.07,"text":"所以我說我們已經在做"},{"start":6242.07,"end":6244.07,"text":"但是一個月沒辦法把所有的動物"},{"start":6244.2,"end":6246.2,"text":"我覺得至少要三個月"},{"start":6246.35,"end":6248.35,"text":"我覺得至少要三個月才能夠"},{"start":6248.35,"end":6250.35,"text":"有一點可以去討論的"},{"start":6251.21,"end":6253.21,"text":"重抽"},{"start":6273.18,"end":6275.18,"text":"危害的認定"},{"start":6275.18,"end":6277.18,"text":"栽損嗎"},{"start":6277.18,"end":6279.18,"text":"你講的是栽損"},{"start":6279.18,"end":6281.18,"text":"好趕快研究"},{"start":6281.18,"end":6283.18,"text":"兩個月時間"},{"start":6283.18,"end":6285.18,"text":"我覺得有困難"},{"start":6285.18,"end":6287.18,"text":"那你三個月一定要有結果出來"},{"start":6287.18,"end":6289.18,"text":"我上個月一定會有個版本給委員了解"},{"start":6289.18,"end":6291.18,"text":"甚至我可以願意提一個專案報告來處理"},{"start":6291.18,"end":6293.18,"text":"來 陳超美委員"},{"start":6293.29,"end":6295.29,"text":"世界情形沒你說的那麼困難"},{"start":6296.41,"end":6298.41,"text":"你知道的狗在這裡是從外圍先吃"},{"start":6298.41,"end":6300.41,"text":"吃飽了牠就不去了"},{"start":6300.41,"end":6302.41,"text":"那不飽再進來"},{"start":6302.41,"end":6304.41,"text":"所以我告訴你"},{"start":6304.41,"end":6306.41,"text":"我都有去看過"},{"start":6306.41,"end":6308.41,"text":"牠吃的話那水果是怎麼吃"},{"start":6308.41,"end":6310.41,"text":"大概爬一爬就丟在地下"},{"start":6310.41,"end":6312.41,"text":"爬一爬牠又不能再回去"},{"start":6312.41,"end":6314.41,"text":"我告訴你牠是用吞的啦"},{"start":6314.41,"end":6316.41,"text":"你只要農民你把一顆一顆吸出來"},{"start":6316.41,"end":6318.41,"text":"有一樣一顆一顆不一樣"},{"start":6318.41,"end":6320.41,"text":"而且"},{"start":6320.41,"end":6322.41,"text":"活該的話喔"},{"start":6322.41,"end":6324.41,"text":"不是很大"},{"start":6324.41,"end":6326.41,"text":"你去討厭很累啦"},{"start":6326.41,"end":6328.41,"text":"但是也是有"},{"start":6328.41,"end":6330.41,"text":"其實這個地方跟你天然災害比起來"},{"start":6330.41,"end":6332.41,"text":"只有一點點你這樣去計較"},{"start":6332.41,"end":6334.41,"text":"那些"},{"start":6334.41,"end":6336.41,"text":"那是你挑戰的"},{"start":6336.41,"end":6338.41,"text":"我告訴你"},{"start":6338.41,"end":6340.41,"text":"那是人家喔"},{"start":6340.41,"end":6342.41,"text":"抱歉跟你說你保護動物"},{"start":6342.41,"end":6344.41,"text":"我來委員報告喔"},{"start":6344.41,"end":6346.41,"text":"我覺得你還兩個月"},{"start":6346.41,"end":6348.41,"text":"好啦給你兩個月啦"},{"start":6348.41,"end":6350.41,"text":"猴子三個月來明天來後天來"},{"start":6350.41,"end":6352.41,"text":"你第二十一條"},{"start":6352.41,"end":6354.41,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":6354.41,"end":6356.41,"text":"我要農民做物"},{"start":6356.41,"end":6358.41,"text":"家庭家庭好水產養殖"},{"start":6358.41,"end":6360.41,"text":"你用這條來就可以了"},{"start":6360.41,"end":6362.41,"text":"你說牠常常來"},{"start":6362.41,"end":6364.41,"text":"牠吃的話沒有那麼嚴重"},{"start":6364.98,"end":6366.98,"text":"OK的"},{"start":6366.5,"end":6368.5,"text":"農民會受不了"},{"start":6368.5,"end":6370.5,"text":"受害的固定外圍的那幾個地區啊"},{"start":6372.72,"end":6374.72,"text":"我曾經去看猴海喔"},{"start":6374.72,"end":6376.72,"text":"牠是整封給你吞掉了喔"},{"start":6376.72,"end":6378.72,"text":"吞掉了"},{"start":6378.72,"end":6380.72,"text":"那很明顯喔"},{"start":6380.72,"end":6382.72,"text":"牠不是每一顆全部把你摘喔"},{"start":6382.72,"end":6384.72,"text":"牠這一顆把你摘一個"},{"start":6384.72,"end":6386.72,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":6386.72,"end":6388.72,"text":"在看這個東西的時候"},{"start":6388.72,"end":6390.72,"text":"至少要有個基準嘛"},{"start":6390.72,"end":6392.72,"text":"不能說一顆嘛"},{"start":6392.72,"end":6394.72,"text":"一顆喔不會啦"},{"start":6394.72,"end":6396.72,"text":"一顆我們頭頭包就給農民了啦"},{"start":6396.72,"end":6398.72,"text":"我是擔心未來"},{"start":6398.72,"end":6400.72,"text":"公所在查勘的時候"},{"start":6400.72,"end":6402.72,"text":"沒有依據的時候"},{"start":6402.72,"end":6404.72,"text":"是沒有辦法執行的啦"},{"start":6404.72,"end":6406.72,"text":"楊瓊瑩委員在鄭天才委員之後"},{"start":6406.72,"end":6408.72,"text":"鍾家斌委員"},{"start":6408.82,"end":6410.82,"text":"這個喔"},{"start":6410.82,"end":6412.82,"text":"因為我一再強調說喔"},{"start":6412.82,"end":6414.82,"text":"我們為什麼一直說"},{"start":6413.32,"end":6415.32,"text":"這個天然災害損失喔"},{"start":6415.32,"end":6417.32,"text":"那以往沒有說"},{"start":6417.32,"end":6419.32,"text":"猴子沒有加入在裡面"},{"start":6419.32,"end":6421.32,"text":"動物"},{"start":6421.32,"end":6423.32,"text":"那我們現在意識到喔動物"},{"start":6423.32,"end":6425.32,"text":"牠跟人類越來越親越來越密切"},{"start":6425.32,"end":6427.32,"text":"健行啊什麼越來越密切"},{"start":6427.32,"end":6429.32,"text":"所以我們發覺到牠也有破壞"},{"start":6430.05,"end":6432.05,"text":"因為有破壞的情況之下"},{"start":6432.05,"end":6434.05,"text":"我覺得我們討論這個議題"},{"start":6434.05,"end":6436.05,"text":"應該是結果論"},{"start":6436.43,"end":6438.43,"text":"不是哪一種動物"},{"start":6438.43,"end":6440.43,"text":"不是牠保育不保育"},{"start":6440.43,"end":6442.43,"text":"我們應該是在保護農民"},{"start":6442.43,"end":6444.43,"text":"牠的農損"},{"start":6444.43,"end":6446.43,"text":"比如說我們的天然災害"},{"start":6446.43,"end":6448.43,"text":"你超過了20%"},{"start":6448.43,"end":6450.43,"text":"我們都要去計算嘛"},{"start":6450.43,"end":6452.43,"text":"你講的有一個標準嘛"},{"start":6452.43,"end":6454.43,"text":"那牠就可以公布這個"},{"start":6454.43,"end":6456.43,"text":"現金救助了嘛"},{"start":6456.43,"end":6458.43,"text":"那你應該是定一個標準"},{"start":6458.43,"end":6460.43,"text":"到底是標準要多少"},{"start":6460.43,"end":6462.43,"text":"你要比照"},{"start":6462.43,"end":6464.43,"text":"天然災害的這個20%"},{"start":6464.43,"end":6466.43,"text":"還是因為動物跟"},{"start":6467.49,"end":6469.49,"text":"整個氣候又不一樣"},{"start":6469.49,"end":6471.49,"text":"牠是有區塊的問題啊"},{"start":6471.49,"end":6473.49,"text":"牠不是整區的問題啊"},{"start":6473.49,"end":6475.49,"text":"牠集中在那裡啊"},{"start":6475.49,"end":6477.49,"text":"所以你應該是"},{"start":6477.49,"end":6479.49,"text":"用農損的損害"},{"start":6479.49,"end":6481.49,"text":"去來定你的標準"},{"start":6481.49,"end":6483.49,"text":"那我們在地方政府的時候"},{"start":6483.49,"end":6485.49,"text":"各公所"},{"start":6485.49,"end":6487.49,"text":"區公所也好"},{"start":6487.49,"end":6489.49,"text":"鄉鎮公所"},{"start":6489.49,"end":6491.49,"text":"牠才有所依歸"},{"start":6491.49,"end":6493.49,"text":"你要定的是這個"},{"start":6493.49,"end":6495.49,"text":"而不是今天定猴子明天定什麼"},{"start":6495.49,"end":6497.49,"text":"牠一直跑出來啊"},{"start":6497.49,"end":6499.49,"text":"螞蟻現在很嚴重啊"},{"start":6499.49,"end":6501.49,"text":"對不對 小鳥也很嚴重啊"},{"start":6501.49,"end":6503.49,"text":"小鳥跟你那裡吃一口"},{"start":6503.49,"end":6505.49,"text":"那裡吃一口 你是整顆都不硬了"},{"start":6505.49,"end":6507.49,"text":"就像你說的啊"},{"start":6507.45,"end":6509.45,"text":"狗仔牠是整個都吞吞去啊"},{"start":6510.79,"end":6512.79,"text":"對不對 你是應該"},{"start":6512.79,"end":6514.79,"text":"是定牠的農損"},{"start":6514.79,"end":6516.79,"text":"的一個標準 我個人"},{"start":6516.79,"end":6518.79,"text":"具體跟你建議 你要定是這個"},{"start":6518.79,"end":6520.79,"text":"你把複雜的事情要"},{"start":6520.79,"end":6522.79,"text":"簡單化 因為你的目標"},{"start":6522.79,"end":6524.79,"text":"鎖定目標 我就是要照顧農民"},{"start":6525.36,"end":6527.36,"text":"我的目標 目標要照顧農民"},{"start":6527.36,"end":6529.36,"text":"要協助農民"},{"start":6529.36,"end":6531.36,"text":"補償也是補償農民"},{"start":6531.53,"end":6533.53,"text":"是這個概念"},{"start":6533.53,"end":6535.53,"text":"那第二個是我自己所提的"},{"start":6535.53,"end":6537.53,"text":"我們現在你"},{"start":6537.53,"end":6539.53,"text":"包括了這個"},{"start":6539.53,"end":6541.53,"text":"現金救助的部分的那個金額"},{"start":6542.97,"end":6544.97,"text":"對不對 我每一年都一直跟你"},{"start":6544.97,"end":6546.97,"text":"在討論這個問題"},{"start":6546.97,"end":6548.97,"text":"你剛剛把它定下來啊"},{"start":6548.97,"end":6550.97,"text":"你什麼時間 依照消費者指數"},{"start":6550.97,"end":6552.97,"text":"比較"},{"start":6552.97,"end":6554.97,"text":"然後你來公告知啊"},{"start":6554.97,"end":6556.97,"text":"當然本級的提案是說"},{"start":6556.97,"end":6558.97,"text":"如果是麻辣式的 那就不要動"},{"start":6558.97,"end":6560.97,"text":"啊 那普拉斯的你當然"},{"start":6560.97,"end":6562.97,"text":"就要依照那個比例來做調整啊"},{"start":6562.97,"end":6564.97,"text":"要不然每一次我們"},{"start":6564.97,"end":6566.97,"text":"所有的委員 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我剛才說的喔"},{"start":6589.51,"end":6591.51,"text":"我們現在最困擾就是定那個基準"},{"start":6591.51,"end":6593.51,"text":"那還有一件事情喔"},{"start":6593.51,"end":6595.51,"text":"就是他不像颱風"},{"start":6595.51,"end":6597.51,"text":"完了以後這一季我們就補助了"},{"start":6597.51,"end":6599.51,"text":"因為他可能這個月來"},{"start":6599.81,"end":6601.81,"text":"他下個月又來"},{"start":6601.81,"end":6603.81,"text":"然後他下個禮拜又來"},{"start":6603.81,"end":6605.81,"text":"那樣連續性的部分我們怎麼樣去計算"},{"start":6605.81,"end":6607.81,"text":"所以我們現在正在"},{"start":6608.96,"end":6610.96,"text":"討論這個東西"},{"start":6638.96,"end":6640.96,"text":"所以我說我才會負責任的"},{"start":6640.96,"end":6642.96,"text":"就是說我要有一個標準"},{"start":6642.96,"end":6644.96,"text":"是公所可執行的方式"},{"start":6644.96,"end":6646.96,"text":"而且有他的一致性嘛"},{"start":6656.14,"end":6658.14,"text":"報告"},{"start":6658.14,"end":6660.14,"text":"我那個金額你沒講嗎"},{"start":6660.14,"end":6662.14,"text":"金額的部分喔"},{"start":6662.14,"end":6664.14,"text":"我給委員報告喔 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那你就是"},{"start":6702.79,"end":6704.79,"text":"你執行的啊 那應該要執行啊"},{"start":6704.79,"end":6706.79,"text":"但是你不能用CPI 因為農業的生產成本"},{"start":6706.79,"end":6708.79,"text":"不會每一項都是根據CPI在跑啊"},{"start":6710.91,"end":6712.91,"text":"CPI是消費指數"},{"start":6712.91,"end":6714.91,"text":"那我們算的天然災害救助"},{"start":6714.91,"end":6716.91,"text":"是用農業的生產成本"},{"start":6716.91,"end":6718.91,"text":"所以我們會調查農業生產成本"},{"start":6718.91,"end":6720.91,"text":"他跟CPI是沒有直接的關係"},{"start":6722.85,"end":6724.85,"text":"我們會沒有直接的關係"},{"start":6724.85,"end":6726.85,"text":"你調查你的農業成本"},{"start":6726.85,"end":6728.85,"text":"本來就是你的本業要做"},{"start":6728.85,"end":6730.85,"text":"農業成本一定會影響到"},{"start":6730.85,"end":6732.85,"text":"消費端 對不對"},{"start":6732.85,"end":6734.85,"text":"你不可能種起來不賣啊"},{"start":6734.85,"end":6736.85,"text":"是不是 我有的成本"},{"start":6736.85,"end":6738.85,"text":"我高成本當然我"},{"start":6738.85,"end":6740.85,"text":"我的這個所得獲取"},{"start":6740.85,"end":6742.85,"text":"會減少 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":"其實綠烈溪應該"},{"start":7189.03,"end":7191.03,"text":"不知道算不算受害"},{"start":7191.03,"end":7193.03,"text":"他是爬蟲類啦"},{"start":7193.03,"end":7195.03,"text":"好這些呂委員的提案當中"},{"start":7195.03,"end":7197.03,"text":"為什麼要請你們針對"},{"start":7197.03,"end":7199.03,"text":"野包法的保育類野生動物所受的"},{"start":7199.03,"end":7201.03,"text":"損害去對農民"},{"start":7201.03,"end":7203.03,"text":"視同天然災害的救助辦法去"},{"start":7203.03,"end":7205.03,"text":"補償"},{"start":7204.74,"end":7206.74,"text":"因為野包法是你們負責的啊"},{"start":7207.01,"end":7209.01,"text":"野包法的保育類野生動物是你們定義的"},{"start":7209.01,"end":7211.01,"text":"你們林保署在這裡嘛"},{"start":7211.01,"end":7213.01,"text":"就是你農業部定義的嘛"},{"start":7213.01,"end":7215.01,"text":"農業部基於整個國家"},{"start":7215.01,"end":7217.01,"text":"負責你們機關的任務"},{"start":7217.01,"end":7219.01,"text":"要對整個大自然的自然生態"},{"start":7219.01,"end":7221.01,"text":"這些野生動物要保育"},{"start":7221.01,"end":7223.01,"text":"他病因絕種要保育"},{"start":7223.01,"end":7225.01,"text":"那基於保育是基於整個社會的公法意"},{"start":7225.01,"end":7227.01,"text":"但是當公法意跟釋法意有侵犯的時候"},{"start":7227.01,"end":7229.01,"text":"你要補償嘛"},{"start":7229.01,"end":7231.01,"text":"假如說今天梅花鹿是我們要保育的"},{"start":7231.01,"end":7233.01,"text":"野生動物要絕種了"},{"start":7233.01,"end":7235.01,"text":"你富裕成功"},{"start":7235.01,"end":7237.01,"text":"我們農民種的黑豆被他啃食了"},{"start":7237.01,"end":7239.01,"text":"甚至造成我們肯定國家公園"},{"start":7239.01,"end":7241.01,"text":"那些稀有的林相"},{"start":7241.01,"end":7243.01,"text":"被他啃食了"},{"start":7244.38,"end":7246.38,"text":"那你要怎麼辦?"},{"start":7246.38,"end":7248.38,"text":"兩邊都要保固啊"},{"start":7248.13,"end":7250.13,"text":"那當然你們野保法當中"},{"start":7250.13,"end":7252.13,"text":"為什麼對保有不要的野生動物"},{"start":7252.13,"end":7254.13,"text":"跟農民的衝突"},{"start":7254.13,"end":7256.13,"text":"很多是來自於棲地嘛"},{"start":7255.66,"end":7257.66,"text":"可能他這個棲地縮小"},{"start":7257.66,"end":7259.66,"text":"以至於病因絕種"},{"start":7259.66,"end":7261.66,"text":"你要富裕"},{"start":7261.66,"end":7263.66,"text":"那他富裕之後他的棲地不夠"},{"start":7263.66,"end":7265.66,"text":"他就要往外擴張"},{"start":7265.66,"end":7267.66,"text":"擴張就進入到農民的已開發地區"},{"start":7267.66,"end":7269.66,"text":"那如果你們認為為了要讓他繼續生存下去"},{"start":7269.66,"end":7271.66,"text":"難免會侵犯到農民已經開發的地區"},{"start":7271.66,"end":7273.66,"text":"那當然要給農民補償嘛"},{"start":7274.27,"end":7276.27,"text":"不然的話你就是限制到棲地"},{"start":7276.27,"end":7278.27,"text":"不要侵犯到農民已開發的土地嘛"},{"start":7278.27,"end":7280.27,"text":"這個是野生類的保育動物"},{"start":7280.27,"end":7284.27,"text":"他的棲地跟農民已開發的農業用地之間的衝突"},{"start":7284.27,"end":7286.27,"text":"這個衝突是農業部可以調試的"},{"start":7287.2,"end":7289.2,"text":"所以農業部要去對這個部分進行調試"},{"start":7289.2,"end":7291.2,"text":"要不你就認為這個已經很多了"},{"start":7291.2,"end":7293.2,"text":"沒貓乳很多了不用保育了"},{"start":7293.2,"end":7295.2,"text":"那農民可能怎麼處理"},{"start":7295.36,"end":7297.36,"text":"農民就可以補砂嘛"},{"start":7297.27,"end":7299.27,"text":"那你補砂動保團又抗議"},{"start":7299.27,"end":7301.27,"text":"動保團也搞不出這是保育類"},{"start":7301.27,"end":7303.27,"text":"他已經富裕到不需要保育了"},{"start":7303.67,"end":7305.67,"text":"澳洲的袋鼠都有在補砂"},{"start":7306.42,"end":7308.42,"text":"有沒有 有嘛"},{"start":7307.75,"end":7309.75,"text":"那澳洲的袋鼠是不是袋都說很可愛"},{"start":7309.75,"end":7311.75,"text":"澳洲的象徵"},{"start":7311.75,"end":7313.75,"text":"那澳洲政府有禁止農民去補砂嗎"},{"start":7313.66,"end":7317.66,"text":"也是因為為了農民的農業設施的農業的使用"},{"start":7317.66,"end":7323.66,"text":"他也開放給農民去限制這些已經不是保育類的野生動物一定的數量"},{"start":7324.86,"end":7328.86,"text":"那農民現在是不知道要怎麼搞不懂"},{"start":7328.86,"end":7330.86,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":7330.86,"end":7332.86,"text":"但是農民有沒有事台灣是槍支管制的國家"},{"start":7334.13,"end":7336.13,"text":"猴子很難處理啦"},{"start":7336.02,"end":7338.02,"text":"好 綠烈熙我們要是開放補砂嘛"},{"start":7339.07,"end":7341.07,"text":"那目前開放補砂是什麼工具"},{"start":7341.7,"end":7343.7,"text":"用什麼工具"},{"start":7344.1,"end":7346.1,"text":"用繩索補捉"},{"start":7346.1,"end":7348.1,"text":"用彈弓補捉"},{"start":7348.1,"end":7350.1,"text":"對不對 甚至我們地方政府還有開班"},{"start":7350.1,"end":7352.1,"text":"告訴這些合格的人"},{"start":7352.1,"end":7354.1,"text":"訓練他怎麼去補做綠烈熙"},{"start":7354.1,"end":7356.1,"text":"甚至有人主張找社級國手來打"},{"start":7357.58,"end":7359.58,"text":"你們農業部林包署也有啊"},{"start":7359.58,"end":7361.58,"text":"林包署可以起來回應一下"},{"start":7361.58,"end":7363.58,"text":"林包署是不是有買獵槍"},{"start":7363.59,"end":7365.59,"text":"買了獵槍之後花那麼多錢"},{"start":7365.59,"end":7367.59,"text":"有沒有獵手 有沒有獵人"},{"start":7368.04,"end":7370.04,"text":"你們開放獵人用獵槍"},{"start":7370.04,"end":7372.04,"text":"買了獵槍"},{"start":7372.04,"end":7374.04,"text":"徵集獵人去打綠烈熙"},{"start":7374.96,"end":7376.96,"text":"效果其實沒有很好"},{"start":7377.41,"end":7379.41,"text":"所以其實這個觀念不要混在一起"},{"start":7379.41,"end":7381.41,"text":"李委員的版本講的就是"},{"start":7381.41,"end":7383.41,"text":"保育類的野生動物"},{"start":7383.41,"end":7385.41,"text":"是政府明文要保障的公法意"},{"start":7385.41,"end":7387.41,"text":"當這個公法意侵犯到"},{"start":7387.41,"end":7389.41,"text":"跟人民的司法有衝突的時候"},{"start":7389.41,"end":7391.41,"text":"你主管機關你要進行救助跟補償嘛"},{"start":7393.27,"end":7395.27,"text":"不然你就說這不用保育了"},{"start":7395.27,"end":7397.27,"text":"這太多了不用保育"},{"start":7397.27,"end":7399.27,"text":"盡量保育 他的棲地跟農民的"},{"start":7399.27,"end":7401.27,"text":"開肯動地產生了衝突重疊"},{"start":7401.27,"end":7403.27,"text":"他的破壞農作的行為"},{"start":7403.27,"end":7405.27,"text":"要不要救助 我是認為要救助"},{"start":7405.44,"end":7407.44,"text":"所以我認為李委員的版本"},{"start":7407.44,"end":7409.44,"text":"其實在我看來 你們好好思考一下"},{"start":7409.44,"end":7411.44,"text":"並沒有所謂的致害難行不當之處"},{"start":7411.44,"end":7413.44,"text":"以上"},{"start":7429.49,"end":7431.49,"text":"不是 我是在強調就是說"},{"start":7431.49,"end":7433.49,"text":"在立這個法的時候"},{"start":7433.49,"end":7435.49,"text":"只寫到野生動物的"},{"start":7435.49,"end":7437.49,"text":"保育類動物的時候"},{"start":7437.49,"end":7439.49,"text":"沒有辦法解決現在農民"},{"start":7439.49,"end":7441.49,"text":"所遭遇到的問題 我承認的就是這個而已"},{"start":7441.49,"end":7443.49,"text":"但是那沒有"},{"start":7443.49,"end":7445.49,"text":"委員沒有要求你去處理那個問題"},{"start":7445.49,"end":7447.49,"text":"那不想的意思是說保育拿掉就可以是嗎"},{"start":7447.49,"end":7449.49,"text":"不是 所以我才會說"},{"start":7449.49,"end":7451.49,"text":"我才會說"},{"start":7451.49,"end":7453.49,"text":"沒有 委員所訂的東西也是為了"},{"start":7453.49,"end":7455.49,"text":"減少農民損失"},{"start":7455.49,"end":7457.49,"text":"我只是回應現況"},{"start":7458.02,"end":7460.02,"text":"其實李委員的版本"},{"start":7460.02,"end":7462.02,"text":"目前並沒有要求你們"},{"start":7462.02,"end":7464.02,"text":"針對非保育類野生動物"},{"start":7464.02,"end":7466.02,"text":"要進行救助 對不對"},{"start":7466.53,"end":7468.53,"text":"受害 委員講的受害有很多種"},{"start":7468.53,"end":7470.53,"text":"李委員只針對保育類"},{"start":7470.53,"end":7472.53,"text":"野生動物造成的受害 你要救助"},{"start":7472.53,"end":7474.53,"text":"其他委員關心的受害"},{"start":7474.53,"end":7476.53,"text":"彌侯的受害 梅花鹿的受害"},{"start":7476.53,"end":7478.53,"text":"那些的受害"},{"start":7478.53,"end":7480.53,"text":"那你們怎麼去調整 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照剛剛宣讀的協商結論通過"},{"start":8619.69,"end":8620.69,"text":"請問有意義"},{"start":8621.23,"end":8622.23,"text":"無意義通過"},{"start":8622.23,"end":8625.23,"text":"討論事項有關農業發展條例部分條例"},{"start":8625.23,"end":8628.23,"text":"相關修正草案等8案審查完畢"},{"start":8628.23,"end":8632.23,"text":"並讓你去審查報告提報院會討論"},{"start":8632.77,"end":8634.77,"text":"請問需不需加油黨團"},{"start":8636.22,"end":8636.72,"text":"學生"},{"start":8637.6,"end":8638.6,"text":"需要好"},{"start":8639.47,"end":8643.47,"text":"請問教主席我要確認一下是直接進到院會處理還是黨團協商"},{"start":8643.47,"end":8644.47,"text":"黨團協商"},{"start":8644.47,"end":8645.47,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8651.32,"end":8653.32,"text":"院會討論時有本席說明"},{"start":8653.32,"end":8655.32,"text":"審查通過之條例相關法制"},{"start":8655.32,"end":8657.32,"text":"容許授權主席及議事人員處理"},{"start":8661.78,"end":8663.78,"text":"好我們現在要協商討論事項2"},{"start":8663.78,"end":8667.78,"text":"有關隨圖保持法部分條文相關修正草案"},{"start":8667.78,"end":8669.78,"text":"共有4個提案版本"},{"start":8669.78,"end":8672.78,"text":"以本次會議一併審查"},{"start":8672.78,"end":8675.78,"text":"我們先從第2條開始協商"},{"start":8675.78,"end":8677.78,"text":"請農業部說明"},{"start":8678.03,"end":8680.03,"text":"好第2條的部分我們也支持委員的版本"},{"start":8680.03,"end":8682.03,"text":"配合行政院的組織改造"},{"start":8682.03,"end":8684.03,"text":"我們新政修正行政院農委會"},{"start":8684.03,"end":8686.03,"text":"委員農業部"},{"start":8690.64,"end":8692.64,"text":"第2條大家都一樣"},{"start":8693.07,"end":8695.07,"text":"好"},{"start":8696.09,"end":8697.09,"text":"還有4"},{"start":8701.05,"end":8703.05,"text":"好"},{"start":8702,"end":8704,"text":"所以就照樣通過"},{"start":8704.43,"end":8706.43,"text":"完美"},{"start":8706.84,"end":8708.84,"text":"提案以及靈代化的提案照樣通過"},{"start":8713.34,"end":8717.34,"text":"好接下來的話我們進行第23條"},{"start":8719.51,"end":8721.51,"text":"第23條的部分我們也參考委員的意見"},{"start":8721.51,"end":8723.51,"text":"將無法"},{"start":8723.82,"end":8729.82,"text":"無法使用權責納入裁處及費用之負擔的規定"},{"start":8729.82,"end":8733.82,"text":"這個部分等一下我們會念相關的文字"},{"start":8733.82,"end":8740.82,"text":"至於說裁處的部分我們還是建議是用暗次的處罰"},{"start":8741.6,"end":8743.6,"text":"好"},{"start":8744.88,"end":8749.88,"text":"關於剛才講的就是說我們將那個無法使用權納入裁處的部分"},{"start":8749.88,"end":8751.88,"text":"那我們做文字的一些說明"},{"start":8753.92,"end":8755.92,"text":"我跟委員說明一下"},{"start":8755.92,"end":8757.92,"text":"那個第一項的部分"},{"start":8757.92,"end":8759.92,"text":"你有我的修正動議"},{"start":8759.92,"end":8761.92,"text":"那我跟委員說明一下"},{"start":8761.92,"end":8763.92,"text":"你的修正動議的部分"},{"start":8763.92,"end":8765.92,"text":"那個我們還是做一下調整"},{"start":8765.92,"end":8767.92,"text":"就是說第一項的部分"},{"start":8767.92,"end":8771.92,"text":"第一項的部分還是維持我們的線性條文"},{"start":8771.92,"end":8773.92,"text":"就跟"},{"start":8774.42,"end":8776.42,"text":"那重點是在第二項"},{"start":8776.42,"end":8778.42,"text":"第二項的部分是"},{"start":8778.42,"end":8782.42,"text":"為依第12條至第14條規定之一"},{"start":8782.42,"end":8784.42,"text":"擬具隨度保持計畫"},{"start":8784.42,"end":8786.42,"text":"送主管機關核定而擅自開發者"},{"start":8786.42,"end":8791.42,"text":"除依第33條規定暗示分別處罰外"},{"start":8791.42,"end":8795.42,"text":"主管機關因令違規行為人停工鬥點"},{"start":8795.42,"end":8803.42,"text":"並得通知其縣級改正、遁號、沒入或其設施及所使用之機具"},{"start":8803.42,"end":8806.42,"text":"強制拆除及清除其工作物"},{"start":8806.42,"end":8809.42,"text":"所需費用由違規行為人負擔"},{"start":8809.42,"end":8813.42,"text":"分號且得自第一次處罰之日期"},{"start":8813.42,"end":8817.42,"text":"二年內暫停該地址開發申請"},{"start":8817.42,"end":8821.42,"text":"就是說我們把處罰的對象明定為違規行為人"},{"start":8821.42,"end":8825.42,"text":"這個名詞把它很確定出來才行為責任"},{"start":8825.42,"end":8829.42,"text":"誰違規在山坡地開發沒有擬具水保計畫"},{"start":8829.42,"end":8832.42,"text":"我就罰他然後命他停工"},{"start":8833.03,"end":8835.03,"text":"我們在第二項最主要的修正"},{"start":8835.03,"end":8837.03,"text":"然後第三項的部分"},{"start":8838.68,"end":8840.68,"text":"就很清楚的在說明說"},{"start":8840.68,"end":8843.68,"text":"前項違規行為人無合法使用權者"},{"start":8843.68,"end":8846.68,"text":"於辦理縣級改正事項前"},{"start":8846.68,"end":8850.68,"text":"無法取得經營人、使用人或所有權人同意"},{"start":8850.68,"end":8854.68,"text":"主管機關因通知經營人、使用人或所有權人"},{"start":8854.68,"end":8856.68,"text":"憲其改正"},{"start":8856.68,"end":8860.68,"text":"那這一條就是在處理剛剛第二項委員"},{"start":8860.68,"end":8862.68,"text":"我們要強調說我罰的是違規行為人"},{"start":8862.68,"end":8864.68,"text":"那違規行為人可能不是地主"},{"start":8864.68,"end":8866.68,"text":"那不是地主的時候"},{"start":8866.68,"end":8869.68,"text":"那他要去那個地上要去縣級改正"},{"start":8869.68,"end":8871.68,"text":"可能地主是反對的"},{"start":8871.68,"end":8872.68,"text":"那地主如果反對的話"},{"start":8872.68,"end":8874.68,"text":"就由主管機關通知他"},{"start":8874.68,"end":8876.68,"text":"由他來負責改正"},{"start":8876.68,"end":8878.68,"text":"那這是我們第三項的修正"},{"start":8878.68,"end":8880.68,"text":"那最後一項的修正就是"},{"start":8880.68,"end":8885.68,"text":"以完工道路或設施之養護准用第一項及第二項之規定"},{"start":8885.68,"end":8886.68,"text":"因為我們相似變動了"},{"start":8886.68,"end":8890.68,"text":"所以這一項的相似再重新做修正"},{"start":8890.68,"end":8891.68,"text":"以上"},{"start":8894.12,"end":8895.12,"text":"這樣好不好"},{"start":8895.12,"end":8898.12,"text":"因為等一下休息再給我看一下"},{"start":8900.77,"end":8902.77,"text":"對啊"},{"start":8906.4,"end":8907.4,"text":"都沒有"},{"start":8920.97,"end":8922.97,"text":"第三項研發就對了"},{"start":8924.94,"end":8928.94,"text":"第三項是我們配合這一次委員講的是"},{"start":8928.94,"end":8932.94,"text":"因為有不少是違規開發是沒有合法使用權的人"},{"start":8932.94,"end":8936.94,"text":"那我們再把第三項在實務上遇到的問題"},{"start":8936.94,"end":8938.94,"text":"把它做一個處理"},{"start":8949.1,"end":8950.1,"text":"嗯"},{"start":8950.28,"end":8954.28,"text":"你這個跟你的這個行政部門所提出"},{"start":8954.28,"end":8957.28,"text":"跟主題人差別"},{"start":8957.28,"end":8958.28,"text":"第一個是日"},{"start":8960.02,"end":8962.02,"text":"你們現在是認為要是"},{"start":8962.02,"end":8964.02,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":8964.02,"end":8966.02,"text":"第二個就在於"},{"start":8966.02,"end":8969.02,"text":"這個違規行為人停工"},{"start":8969.02,"end":8973.02,"text":"並得通知其期限改正"},{"start":8973.02,"end":8976.02,"text":"你是增加讓他改善的時間"},{"start":8976.02,"end":8978.02,"text":"那你這個並期"},{"start":8978.02,"end":8981.02,"text":"並得通知其期限改正"},{"start":8981.02,"end":8982.02,"text":"限期改正"},{"start":8982.02,"end":8983.02,"text":"限期改正"},{"start":8983.02,"end":8984.02,"text":"那你的限期"},{"start":8984.08,"end":8985.08,"text":"限期"},{"start":8985.28,"end":8986.28,"text":"委員您要知道"},{"start":8986.28,"end":8987.28,"text":"以前立法體力上"},{"start":8987.28,"end":8989.28,"text":"曾經出現一個問題"},{"start":8989.28,"end":8990.28,"text":"我們很困擾的問題"},{"start":8990.28,"end":8992.28,"text":"準睑請問的是你的限期"},{"start":8992.28,"end":8993.28,"text":"對"},{"start":8993.28,"end":8994.28,"text":"你的限期"},{"start":8994.28,"end":8996.28,"text":"如果沒有寫時間"},{"start":8996.28,"end":8999.28,"text":"是不是依照他的case來決定"},{"start":8999.28,"end":9000.28,"text":"行政部門來決定"},{"start":9000.28,"end":9002.28,"text":"所以沒有固定"},{"start":9002.28,"end":9004.28,"text":"比如說我們很多的法律"},{"start":9004.28,"end":9007.28,"text":"就是一個月內兩個禮拜內一個禮拜內"},{"start":9007.28,"end":9009.28,"text":"要依實際的狀況"},{"start":9009.28,"end":9011.28,"text":"所以你的是要依你的case"},{"start":9011.28,"end":9012.28,"text":"by case"},{"start":9012.28,"end":9013.28,"text":"授權給行政部門"},{"start":9013.28,"end":9015.28,"text":"你的意思是不是這樣子"},{"start":9015.28,"end":9016.28,"text":"委員我要跟您說"},{"start":9016.28,"end":9017.28,"text":"我們當初第一項跟第二項"},{"start":9017.28,"end":9019.28,"text":"常受外面的困擾的是"},{"start":9019.28,"end":9021.28,"text":"第一項就是"},{"start":9021.28,"end":9022.28,"text":"他有你水保計畫"},{"start":9022.28,"end":9024.28,"text":"只是沒有一盒代言水保計畫"},{"start":9024.28,"end":9026.28,"text":"但第一項委員您要看一下"},{"start":9026.28,"end":9029.28,"text":"他上面有時候也要有限期改正"},{"start":9029.28,"end":9030.28,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":9030.28,"end":9031.28,"text":"第一項有限期改正"},{"start":9031.28,"end":9033.28,"text":"就是因為你如果"},{"start":9033.28,"end":9035.28,"text":"你們要依照原先核定去挖"},{"start":9035.28,"end":9036.28,"text":"然後我們就請你限期改正"},{"start":9036.28,"end":9039.28,"text":"那第二項您去看限期的條文"},{"start":9039.28,"end":9040.28,"text":"他沒有限期改正"},{"start":9040.28,"end":9041.28,"text":"這個我自言"},{"start":9041.28,"end":9042.28,"text":"沒有擬據的人"},{"start":9042.28,"end":9043.28,"text":"卻沒有限期改正"},{"start":9043.28,"end":9045.28,"text":"所以就造成外界很多人困擾說"},{"start":9045.28,"end":9048.28,"text":"以為好亂來的人就不用改正"},{"start":9048.28,"end":9049.28,"text":"是要的"},{"start":9049.28,"end":9051.28,"text":"所以我們這次把他寫得很清楚說"},{"start":9051.28,"end":9054.28,"text":"不論你是位一核定或位擬據"},{"start":9054.28,"end":9056.28,"text":"那個現地的狀況"},{"start":9056.28,"end":9058.28,"text":"你被你挖了亂七八糟的狀況"},{"start":9058.28,"end":9060.28,"text":"是必須要你把改正回來的"},{"start":9060.28,"end":9062.28,"text":"所以我們最主要的問題"},{"start":9062.28,"end":9063.28,"text":"就是限期改正"},{"start":9063.28,"end":9065.28,"text":"那剛剛委員您詢問的"},{"start":9065.28,"end":9066.28,"text":"因為開挖整地的狀態"},{"start":9066.28,"end":9067.28,"text":"每個人的狀況"},{"start":9067.28,"end":9069.28,"text":"有很嚴重的也有很輕微的"},{"start":9069.28,"end":9071.28,"text":"改正的方式都有不同"},{"start":9071.28,"end":9073.28,"text":"所以他都必須符合水土保持技術"},{"start":9073.28,"end":9076.28,"text":"規範的要求去做改正"},{"start":9076.28,"end":9078.28,"text":"所以主管機關在下的時候"},{"start":9078.28,"end":9080.28,"text":"他必須要合情合理"},{"start":9080.28,"end":9084.28,"text":"去看照規範的水土保持技術規範"},{"start":9084.28,"end":9088.28,"text":"有地方政府一失誤狀況去做改善"},{"start":9090.51,"end":9091.51,"text":"是"},{"start":9091.77,"end":9094.77,"text":"也的確目前在執行的過程當中"},{"start":9094.77,"end":9097.77,"text":"都有讓這個"},{"start":9098.56,"end":9100.56,"text":"去限期改善"},{"start":9101.58,"end":9102.58,"text":"那現在你說"},{"start":9102.58,"end":9104.58,"text":"因為在當地的縣市政府"},{"start":9104.58,"end":9106.58,"text":"他要去執行的時候"},{"start":9106.58,"end":9108.58,"text":"因為我經常說我們訂的法"},{"start":9108.58,"end":9109.58,"text":"是要讓當地的縣市政府"},{"start":9109.58,"end":9111.58,"text":"他可以執行的了"},{"start":9111.58,"end":9114.58,"text":"而且他有一個依據"},{"start":9114.58,"end":9117.58,"text":"所以這個依據各縣市政府"},{"start":9117.58,"end":9120.58,"text":"22個縣市政府他們的依據"},{"start":9120.58,"end":9124.58,"text":"是不是有一個基本的一個"},{"start":9124.73,"end":9125.73,"text":"一個規範"},{"start":9127.48,"end":9129.48,"text":"就是跟委員報告"},{"start":9129.48,"end":9131.48,"text":"就是依照他的樣態"},{"start":9131.48,"end":9134.48,"text":"會依照我們的技術規範的"},{"start":9134.48,"end":9136.48,"text":"作業的一般的期程"},{"start":9136.48,"end":9138.48,"text":"去限定他的期間"},{"start":9138.48,"end":9140.48,"text":"他有一個標準"},{"start":9140.48,"end":9142.48,"text":"所以說這個樣態太多"},{"start":9142.48,"end":9145.48,"text":"沒有辦法在這裡做這樣的規範"},{"start":9145.48,"end":9147.48,"text":"就是說不管你的樣態是怎麼樣"},{"start":9147.48,"end":9149.48,"text":"但是我們目前為止"},{"start":9149.48,"end":9151.48,"text":"還是有一個基本的標準"},{"start":9151.48,"end":9154.48,"text":"對 技術規範裡面的作業方式"},{"start":9167.48,"end":9168.48,"text":"我再問一下"},{"start":9168.48,"end":9170.48,"text":"所以你們把你們的第三項"},{"start":9170.48,"end":9172.48,"text":"前面那些公有或私人三破地"},{"start":9172.48,"end":9173.48,"text":"國公有鄰區"},{"start":9173.48,"end":9174.48,"text":"他人私有鄰區"},{"start":9174.48,"end":9176.48,"text":"你那些全部都"},{"start":9177.9,"end":9179.9,"text":"我要跟委員說"},{"start":9179.9,"end":9181.9,"text":"為擬具水保計畫"},{"start":9181.9,"end":9182.9,"text":"不管你背後"},{"start":9182.9,"end":9184.9,"text":"到底有沒有合法使用權"},{"start":9184.9,"end":9186.9,"text":"你到底是地主"},{"start":9186.9,"end":9187.9,"text":"還是不是地主"},{"start":9187.9,"end":9188.9,"text":"是侵佔別人土地來"},{"start":9188.9,"end":9190.9,"text":"都會適用第二項"},{"start":9190.9,"end":9192.9,"text":"因為你沒有經過主管機關核定"},{"start":9192.9,"end":9195.9,"text":"所以在你們的辦法"},{"start":9195.9,"end":9196.9,"text":"就是把他"},{"start":9196.9,"end":9198.9,"text":"我們就認定是第二項的情況"},{"start":9198.9,"end":9200.9,"text":"因為你沒有擬具水保計畫"},{"start":9200.9,"end":9201.9,"text":"送主管機關核定"},{"start":9201.9,"end":9202.9,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9202.9,"end":9203.9,"text":"不管你什麼"},{"start":9203.9,"end":9205.9,"text":"不管你是侵佔別人"},{"start":9205.9,"end":9206.9,"text":"你有沒有合法使用權"},{"start":9206.9,"end":9208.9,"text":"你外觀上就是沒有擬水保計畫"},{"start":9208.9,"end":9209.9,"text":"送主管機關核定"},{"start":9209.9,"end":9212.9,"text":"所以他會被第二項涵蓋進來了"},{"start":9215.28,"end":9219.28,"text":"那如果你現在找不到違規行為人的話"},{"start":9219.28,"end":9220.28,"text":"會怎麼辦"},{"start":9220.28,"end":9221.28,"text":"第三項有講"},{"start":9221.28,"end":9222.28,"text":"不是"},{"start":9222.28,"end":9223.28,"text":"找不到違規行為人的話"},{"start":9223.28,"end":9224.28,"text":"就會通知地主"},{"start":9229.2,"end":9231.2,"text":"由地主來處理"},{"start":9232.98,"end":9234.98,"text":"可是你的第三項"},{"start":9234.98,"end":9235.98,"text":"感覺不是這樣寫"},{"start":9235.98,"end":9238.98,"text":"這個第一這個也是我一併討論"},{"start":9238.98,"end":9240.98,"text":"因為這個最後你說使用人"},{"start":9240.98,"end":9242.98,"text":"或所有權人同意"},{"start":9242.98,"end":9243.98,"text":"那你的主管機關單位"},{"start":9243.98,"end":9245.98,"text":"應通知經營人"},{"start":9245.98,"end":9248.98,"text":"使用人或所有權人限期改善"},{"start":9248.98,"end":9249.98,"text":"我們現在在做的"},{"start":9249.98,"end":9252.98,"text":"就譬如我給你做你這堆"},{"start":9252.98,"end":9254.98,"text":"那一般都是經營者"},{"start":9254.98,"end":9256.98,"text":"他第一順位要負責"},{"start":9256.98,"end":9257.98,"text":"是不是"},{"start":9257.98,"end":9260.98,"text":"那地主是到最後"},{"start":9260.98,"end":9262.98,"text":"一落跑也找不到了"},{"start":9262.98,"end":9263.98,"text":"地主要負全責"},{"start":9263.98,"end":9264.98,"text":"是不是"},{"start":9264.98,"end":9266.98,"text":"那你直接把它同步"},{"start":9266.98,"end":9268.98,"text":"同步通知的時候"},{"start":9268.98,"end":9269.98,"text":"會不會"},{"start":9269.98,"end":9272.98,"text":"讓人家以為就是地主的這個"},{"start":9273.74,"end":9275.74,"text":"那這三個"},{"start":9275.74,"end":9277.74,"text":"有沒有那個數位問題"},{"start":9277.74,"end":9278.74,"text":"你現在在執行的"},{"start":9278.74,"end":9280.74,"text":"有數位問題嗎"},{"start":9280.74,"end":9282.74,"text":"地主是在最後嗎"},{"start":9282.74,"end":9283.74,"text":"我跟委員講"},{"start":9283.74,"end":9285.74,"text":"你剛剛講的是陳租人"},{"start":9285.74,"end":9287.74,"text":"陳租人違規對不對"},{"start":9287.74,"end":9289.74,"text":"陳租人是有合法使用權人"},{"start":9289.74,"end":9290.74,"text":"因為他有陳租權"},{"start":9290.74,"end":9291.74,"text":"他在另外的土地"},{"start":9291.74,"end":9292.74,"text":"他就不是第三項"},{"start":9292.74,"end":9293.74,"text":"無合法使用權"},{"start":9293.74,"end":9294.74,"text":"我們真的是在講"},{"start":9294.74,"end":9297.74,"text":"你完全沒有任何使用權的部分"},{"start":9297.74,"end":9298.74,"text":"所以陳租人跟地主"},{"start":9298.74,"end":9299.74,"text":"陳租人去開發"},{"start":9299.74,"end":9300.74,"text":"他沒有擬具"},{"start":9300.74,"end":9301.74,"text":"我會罰陳租人"},{"start":9302.46,"end":9303.46,"text":"我會罰陳租人"},{"start":9303.46,"end":9305.46,"text":"那第三項是無合法使用權"},{"start":9305.46,"end":9306.46,"text":"是說你任何權利都沒有"},{"start":9306.46,"end":9308.46,"text":"你去侵占別人土地"},{"start":9308.46,"end":9310.46,"text":"就如剛剛委員之前提到"},{"start":9310.46,"end":9311.46,"text":"你沒有經過統一"},{"start":9311.46,"end":9313.46,"text":"擅自去開發的那種人"},{"start":9313.46,"end":9317.46,"text":"你就是去侵占人家土地的這種人"},{"start":9317.46,"end":9318.46,"text":"所以這個是在講"},{"start":9318.46,"end":9319.46,"text":"第三項這種人"},{"start":9319.46,"end":9321.46,"text":"那如果地主跟陳租戶的問題"},{"start":9321.46,"end":9323.46,"text":"是他們之間的問題"},{"start":9323.46,"end":9324.46,"text":"誰挖我就找誰"},{"start":9326.13,"end":9327.13,"text":"他會是在第二項"},{"start":9329.02,"end":9331.02,"text":"最後找不到還是地主要付權"},{"start":9331.02,"end":9332.02,"text":"所以的確委員剛剛有講的"},{"start":9332.02,"end":9334.02,"text":"完全找不到違規行為人"},{"start":9334.02,"end":9336.02,"text":"那我也贊同委員"},{"start":9336.02,"end":9338.02,"text":"如果這個部分也要處理的話"},{"start":9338.02,"end":9340.02,"text":"我們可能就是說"},{"start":9340.02,"end":9342.02,"text":"那個無法獲取"},{"start":9342.02,"end":9344.02,"text":"我們前面前項違規行為人"},{"start":9344.02,"end":9345.02,"text":"無合法使用權者"},{"start":9345.02,"end":9347.02,"text":"與辦理先期改正事項前"},{"start":9347.02,"end":9349.02,"text":"無法取得經營人使用人同意"},{"start":9349.02,"end":9350.02,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":9350.02,"end":9354.02,"text":"或無法尋得違規行為人時"},{"start":9354.02,"end":9355.02,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":9355.02,"end":9356.02,"text":"主管通知"},{"start":9356.02,"end":9358.02,"text":"主管就歡迎通知經營人使用人"},{"start":9358.02,"end":9360.02,"text":"然後去改善"},{"start":9361.4,"end":9362.4,"text":"因為當時我們立這個"},{"start":9362.4,"end":9364.4,"text":"在後面立這個法律就是說"},{"start":9364.4,"end":9365.4,"text":"怕這個違規行為人"},{"start":9365.4,"end":9366.4,"text":"你就找不到嘛"},{"start":9366.4,"end":9368.4,"text":"因為地主也不知道啊"},{"start":9368.4,"end":9369.4,"text":"他也不是陳租都不知道"},{"start":9369.4,"end":9371.4,"text":"找不到的時候"},{"start":9371.4,"end":9372.4,"text":"我才會要求是"},{"start":9372.4,"end":9375.4,"text":"地方的主管機關是代為整複嘛"},{"start":9375.4,"end":9378.4,"text":"然後再找行為人負擔啊"},{"start":9378.4,"end":9379.4,"text":"因為找不到行為人"},{"start":9379.4,"end":9381.4,"text":"你怎麼找他"},{"start":9381.4,"end":9382.4,"text":"但是你就這樣割著啊"},{"start":9382.4,"end":9386.4,"text":"因為違規行為人就是非法的人嘛"},{"start":9386.4,"end":9388.4,"text":"那他現在就倒在你的山坡地"},{"start":9388.4,"end":9389.4,"text":"也沒有同意什麼都沒有"},{"start":9389.4,"end":9390.4,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9390.4,"end":9394.4,"text":"那現在如果他這邊量到造成風險危害"},{"start":9394.4,"end":9398.4,"text":"所以我才說地方機關主管現在負起責任"},{"start":9398.4,"end":9400.4,"text":"那不然你這個風險怎麼辦"},{"start":9401.35,"end":9402.35,"text":"中邪"},{"start":9402.38,"end":9404.38,"text":"這個法治單位"},{"start":9404.38,"end":9407.38,"text":"其實剛剛委員點出了你們一個部分"},{"start":9407.38,"end":9409.38,"text":"就是你們的思考"},{"start":9409.38,"end":9412.38,"text":"都是站在有你具水保計畫的"},{"start":9412.38,"end":9414.38,"text":"那他的水保計畫怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9414.38,"end":9416.38,"text":"那為你具水保計畫的"},{"start":9416.38,"end":9417.38,"text":"那怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9417.38,"end":9419.38,"text":"然後呢為你具水保計畫的那些行為人"},{"start":9419.38,"end":9422.38,"text":"你沒辦法取得同意"},{"start":9422.38,"end":9424.38,"text":"那就不能你具水保計畫"},{"start":9424.38,"end":9426.38,"text":"所以就怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9426.38,"end":9427.38,"text":"好那跑出一個項目"},{"start":9427.38,"end":9428.38,"text":"就是楊委員所說的"},{"start":9428.38,"end":9430.38,"text":"那找不到違規行為人"},{"start":9430.38,"end":9431.38,"text":"也是目前主席關切的"},{"start":9431.38,"end":9432.38,"text":"那該怎麼處理"},{"start":9432.38,"end":9434.38,"text":"那我是同意也是認同說"},{"start":9434.38,"end":9435.38,"text":"如果找不到違規行為人"},{"start":9435.38,"end":9437.38,"text":"當然是要由經營人使用人"},{"start":9437.38,"end":9439.38,"text":"或所有權人限期改善"},{"start":9439.38,"end":9441.38,"text":"因為這些人一定找得到"},{"start":9441.38,"end":9443.38,"text":"因為經營人不可能找不到"},{"start":9443.38,"end":9444.38,"text":"使用人也不能找不到"},{"start":9444.38,"end":9447.38,"text":"這些都找不到就是所有權人"},{"start":9447.38,"end":9450.38,"text":"所有權人一定是可以看得到找得到的"},{"start":9450.38,"end":9454.38,"text":"那這些人應該優先的負責去改正"},{"start":9454.38,"end":9458.38,"text":"那麼至於說連所有權人都不願意改正"},{"start":9458.38,"end":9459.38,"text":"這個就事情大了"},{"start":9459.38,"end":9462.38,"text":"這種情況之下那個土地要怎麼處理"},{"start":9462.38,"end":9465.38,"text":"所有權人他應該負責"},{"start":9465.38,"end":9466.38,"text":"如果找不到"},{"start":9466.38,"end":9469.38,"text":"我說如果所有權人無法改正的時候"},{"start":9469.38,"end":9471.38,"text":"你們要說明是這一個"},{"start":9471.38,"end":9474.38,"text":"當所有權人他也無力改正的時候"},{"start":9474.38,"end":9476.38,"text":"那行政機關如何"},{"start":9476.38,"end":9480.38,"text":"我們就會由行政機關先待為執行再慢慢處理"},{"start":9480.38,"end":9484.38,"text":"這個就是國剛也一直在講"},{"start":9484.38,"end":9487.38,"text":"因為一般承租的就是最後找地主"},{"start":9487.38,"end":9489.38,"text":"那你沒有這個的時候"},{"start":9489.38,"end":9493.38,"text":"當然很多人人頭你一定他沒有辦法去改善"},{"start":9493.38,"end":9495.38,"text":"那是誰"},{"start":9495.38,"end":9497.38,"text":"那最後是政府"},{"start":9497.38,"end":9499.38,"text":"你講的就對了"},{"start":9499.38,"end":9501.38,"text":"如果是沒有人的時候"},{"start":9501.38,"end":9504.38,"text":"政府當然就是待為先改善"},{"start":9504.38,"end":9507.38,"text":"然後事後再去追捕"},{"start":9507.38,"end":9509.38,"text":"要不然你就爛在那裡"},{"start":9509.38,"end":9511.38,"text":"那個等一下主席"},{"start":9511.38,"end":9515.38,"text":"就是說其實一定找得到所有權人"},{"start":9515.38,"end":9517.38,"text":"只是所有權人有沒有能力改正"},{"start":9517.38,"end":9520.38,"text":"那如果所有權人無能力改正"},{"start":9520.38,"end":9522.38,"text":"那當然國家就會介入"},{"start":9522.38,"end":9525.38,"text":"那國家介入去待為執行的時候"},{"start":9525.38,"end":9527.38,"text":"後續再跟所有權人求償"},{"start":9527.38,"end":9529.38,"text":"那這個部分是規定在哪裡"},{"start":9529.38,"end":9531.38,"text":"因為現在主席的問題是"},{"start":9531.38,"end":9532.38,"text":"如果我這裡不寫"},{"start":9532.38,"end":9536.38,"text":"那你後面最後這一段國家執行的時候是依哪些法"},{"start":9536.38,"end":9539.38,"text":"其實我也因為我在地方租管機關也待過"},{"start":9539.38,"end":9542.38,"text":"其實我們就會跟所有權人"},{"start":9542.38,"end":9545.38,"text":"先待為執行之後就來求償"},{"start":9545.38,"end":9548.38,"text":"那求償他如果拿不出來他的土地會被拍賣"},{"start":9548.38,"end":9549.38,"text":"大概是這樣"},{"start":9549.38,"end":9551.38,"text":"那這個你們把這個法令依據說明一下"},{"start":9551.38,"end":9553.38,"text":"這個請他們說明一下"},{"start":9553.38,"end":9555.38,"text":"因為在隨法法第24條裡面有一些規範"},{"start":9556.21,"end":9558.21,"text":"跟委員講說待履行的部分"},{"start":9558.21,"end":9562.21,"text":"我們在隨法法24條就有做規定"},{"start":9562.21,"end":9564.21,"text":"那行政執行法也可以做處理"},{"start":9564.21,"end":9568.21,"text":"我給你們看一下24條的部分的最後一項"},{"start":9568.21,"end":9570.21,"text":"他的第三項"},{"start":9570.21,"end":9572.21,"text":"有前二條情形之一者"},{"start":9572.21,"end":9574.21,"text":"然後呢經縣級改正、建級不改正"},{"start":9574.21,"end":9577.21,"text":"或實施人不符合水土保持技術規範者"},{"start":9577.21,"end":9581.21,"text":"應由主管機關、會同各該目的式為機關待為履行"},{"start":9581.21,"end":9584.21,"text":"並向隨法義務人徵收費用"},{"start":9584.21,"end":9586.21,"text":"然後呢所以呢"},{"start":9586.21,"end":9588.21,"text":"24條的最後一項就有規定"},{"start":9588.21,"end":9592.21,"text":"那這一條可能對幾乎所有狀況就可以處理"},{"start":9592.21,"end":9596.21,"text":"如果沒有行政執行法也有一個規定"},{"start":9596.21,"end":9598.21,"text":"也是一樣有待履行的義務"},{"start":9598.21,"end":9599.21,"text":"待履行的條文"},{"start":9599.21,"end":9600.21,"text":"那但是這一切"},{"start":9600.21,"end":9602.21,"text":"像我的確贊同委員剛剛的說法"},{"start":9602.21,"end":9604.21,"text":"就是完全找不到行為人的時候"},{"start":9604.21,"end":9606.21,"text":"我們就要通知地主"},{"start":9606.21,"end":9608.21,"text":"你要負起這個責任來"},{"start":9608.21,"end":9610.21,"text":"所以我們的第三項是不是在"},{"start":9610.21,"end":9612.21,"text":"無法取得機器人、使用人或所有權人同意"},{"start":9612.21,"end":9614.21,"text":"後面我們再往下加"},{"start":9614.21,"end":9616.21,"text":"我們在鬥點之後寫說"},{"start":9616.21,"end":9620.21,"text":"或無法尋得那個違規行為人時"},{"start":9620.21,"end":9625.21,"text":"那鬥點主管機關應通知經營人、使用人或所有人"},{"start":9625.21,"end":9626.21,"text":"獻起改正"},{"start":9626.21,"end":9628.21,"text":"那這樣就完結委員所有的意見"},{"start":9628.21,"end":9630.21,"text":"把它融合起來了"},{"start":9632.85,"end":9637.85,"text":"或無法尋得那個違規行為人時"},{"start":9637.85,"end":9640.85,"text":"那主管機關應通知"},{"start":9640.85,"end":9644.85,"text":"經營人、使用人或所有權人獻起改正"},{"start":9645.63,"end":9647.63,"text":"那至於委員剛剛你講說"},{"start":9647.63,"end":9649.63,"text":"如果後面待履行的部分"},{"start":9649.63,"end":9651.63,"text":"已經有條文可以出力了"},{"start":9653.39,"end":9655.39,"text":"你要把我們這個寫說"},{"start":9655.39,"end":9657.39,"text":"因為他就剛剛中交部會提到"},{"start":9657.39,"end":9659.39,"text":"我們委員扛勝的就是說"},{"start":9659.39,"end":9661.39,"text":"如果那些待履權還是無能嘛"},{"start":9661.39,"end":9663.39,"text":"沒有能力的時候"},{"start":9663.39,"end":9665.39,"text":"你要再寫在這邊說"},{"start":9665.39,"end":9667.39,"text":"政府就要待為這個啊"},{"start":9667.39,"end":9669.39,"text":"那你才會接到24啊"},{"start":9669.39,"end":9671.39,"text":"不是不是,他一定是先通知地主"},{"start":9671.39,"end":9673.39,"text":"因為地主你是那塊地的責任"},{"start":9673.39,"end":9677.39,"text":"就好像我們建築法規或費心法一樣"},{"start":9677.39,"end":9679.39,"text":"我找不到任何行為人我還是會先找地主"},{"start":9679.39,"end":9681.39,"text":"那地主如果無法處理的話"},{"start":9681.39,"end":9683.39,"text":"那我會做待履行"},{"start":9683.39,"end":9685.39,"text":"那待履行剛剛跟委員講"},{"start":9685.39,"end":9687.39,"text":"隨法法24條已經有規定"},{"start":9687.39,"end":9689.39,"text":"還有行政執行法也有規定"},{"start":9689.03,"end":9691.03,"text":"那我們這邊只是告訴說"},{"start":9691.03,"end":9693.03,"text":"義務員我會找誰"},{"start":9693.27,"end":9695.27,"text":"那我們剛剛講第二項"},{"start":9695.27,"end":9697.27,"text":"我一定先找行為人嘛"},{"start":9697.27,"end":9699.27,"text":"違規行為人先找"},{"start":9699.27,"end":9701.27,"text":"因為你沒有報住管教我先找行為人"},{"start":9701.27,"end":9703.27,"text":"那行為人如果你沒辦法"},{"start":9703.27,"end":9705.27,"text":"地主如果沒辦法同意"},{"start":9705.27,"end":9707.27,"text":"那你就回到地主"},{"start":9707.27,"end":9709.27,"text":"那還有一種就是你找不到行為人"},{"start":9709.27,"end":9711.27,"text":"那也是由地主來做的"},{"start":9711.27,"end":9713.27,"text":"但地主不是馬上罰他"},{"start":9713.27,"end":9715.27,"text":"因為對地主太苛刻"},{"start":9715.27,"end":9717.27,"text":"所以一定先通知地主"},{"start":9717.27,"end":9719.27,"text":"請你處理,你不處理才會啟動後面的手段"},{"start":9718.88,"end":9720.88,"text":"修正了再"},{"start":9720.88,"end":9722.88,"text":"好"},{"start":9722.88,"end":9724.88,"text":"那24條的第三項就有了"},{"start":9724.88,"end":9726.88,"text":"因為我們這是23條嘛"},{"start":9726.88,"end":9728.88,"text":"那24條第三項他寫"},{"start":9728.88,"end":9730.88,"text":"有前二條之情形之一者就已經有了"},{"start":9736.99,"end":9738.99,"text":"我還是小小抱怨一下"},{"start":9738.99,"end":9740.99,"text":"就是說這已經是很久很久很久了"},{"start":9740.99,"end":9742.99,"text":"然後當時問你們也都"},{"start":9742.99,"end":9744.99,"text":"毫無意義對不對"},{"start":9744.99,"end":9746.99,"text":"然後覺得可以遵照委員的狀況來辦理"},{"start":9746.99,"end":9748.99,"text":"然後"},{"start":9751.1,"end":9753.1,"text":"要交考卷了"},{"start":9753.1,"end":9755.1,"text":"然後才今天再加到這個"},{"start":9755.1,"end":9757.1,"text":"答題內容"},{"start":9759.27,"end":9761.27,"text":"好"},{"start":9760.99,"end":9762.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9764.61,"end":9766.61,"text":"等一下,放學後留下來操作一下"},{"start":9770.18,"end":9772.18,"text":"前項違規行為"},{"start":9774.6,"end":9776.6,"text":"不合法,白兵"},{"start":9778.98,"end":9780.98,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9783.97,"end":9785.97,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9785.98,"end":9787.98,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9800.9,"end":9802.9,"text":"我們這個再往上看一下"},{"start":9802.9,"end":9804.9,"text":"我整個挑了"},{"start":9805.55,"end":9807.55,"text":"我們用整夜模式"},{"start":9825.53,"end":9827.53,"text":"因為按日變按次這個同意"},{"start":9827.53,"end":9829.53,"text":"因為配合屠宰法"},{"start":9829.53,"end":9831.53,"text":"維持行政法一致"},{"start":9831.53,"end":9833.53,"text":"因為修正動議也有"},{"start":9834.68,"end":9836.68,"text":"好"},{"start":9836.67,"end":9838.67,"text":"再往下"},{"start":9857.26,"end":9859.26,"text":"好"},{"start":9858.47,"end":9860.47,"text":"再往下"},{"start":9860.47,"end":9862.47,"text":"前項違規行為"},{"start":9863.99,"end":9865.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9865.99,"end":9867.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9867.99,"end":9869.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9869.99,"end":9871.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9871.99,"end":9873.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9873.99,"end":9875.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9875.99,"end":9877.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9877.99,"end":9879.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9879.99,"end":9881.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9881.99,"end":9883.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9883.99,"end":9885.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9885.99,"end":9887.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9887.99,"end":9889.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9889.99,"end":9891.99,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9888.8,"end":9890.8,"text":"我啥事都沒有來"},{"start":9892.71,"end":9894.71,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9895.33,"end":9897.33,"text":"好 其他委員"},{"start":9897.33,"end":9899.33,"text":"再看一下"},{"start":9913.17,"end":9915.17,"text":"這實在是"},{"start":9915.17,"end":9917.17,"text":"我們還要再想想"},{"start":9916.66,"end":9918.66,"text":"看一下"},{"start":9930.58,"end":9932.58,"text":"其實這一條條文"},{"start":9932.58,"end":9934.58,"text":"也就是說雖然我們"},{"start":9934.58,"end":9936.58,"text":"在條文裡頭已經"},{"start":9936.58,"end":9938.58,"text":"剛剛那個說明的"},{"start":9938.58,"end":9940.58,"text":"在條文裡頭"},{"start":9940.58,"end":9942.58,"text":"就夯不讓當不管是"},{"start":9942.58,"end":9944.58,"text":"有經營權沒有經營權的"},{"start":9944.58,"end":9946.58,"text":"這一些他都可以"},{"start":9946.58,"end":9948.58,"text":"代執行你的說法是如此"},{"start":9948.58,"end":9950.58,"text":"但是現在就是"},{"start":9950.58,"end":9952.58,"text":"為什麼會提出這個"},{"start":9952.58,"end":9954.58,"text":"也就是說目前雖然"},{"start":9954.58,"end":9956.58,"text":"有但是他的"},{"start":9956.58,"end":9958.58,"text":"層面執行起來"},{"start":9958.58,"end":9960.58,"text":"不完整"},{"start":9959.91,"end":9961.91,"text":"並不完整"},{"start":9961.91,"end":9963.91,"text":"所以才會提出這樣子"},{"start":9963.91,"end":9965.91,"text":"我個人認為說"},{"start":9965.91,"end":9967.91,"text":"應該行政部門你們要提出說"},{"start":9967.91,"end":9969.91,"text":"那我現在已經有這個"},{"start":9970.64,"end":9972.64,"text":"執行細則已經有這個法條"},{"start":9972.64,"end":9974.64,"text":"但是為什麼"},{"start":9974.64,"end":9976.64,"text":"社會現象就沒有辦法解決"},{"start":9977.75,"end":9979.75,"text":"你們應該是針對這個來說明"},{"start":9979.75,"end":9981.75,"text":"而不是說"},{"start":9981.75,"end":9983.75,"text":"現在第23條"},{"start":9983.75,"end":9985.75,"text":"裡頭你修正這樣"},{"start":9985.75,"end":9987.75,"text":"文字很漂亮"},{"start":9987.75,"end":9989.75,"text":"但是問題是說"},{"start":9989.75,"end":9991.75,"text":"你的執行會不會跟原先的"},{"start":9991.75,"end":9993.75,"text":"已經有啊那一條擺在那裡"},{"start":9993.75,"end":9995.75,"text":"你依照這一條"},{"start":9995.75,"end":9997.75,"text":"但是他不依照這一條去執行"},{"start":9997.75,"end":9999.75,"text":"問題是這個啊"},{"start":9999.8,"end":10001.8,"text":"那你要怎麼去解決這個問題才是嘛"},{"start":10004.29,"end":10006.29,"text":"我跟你們報告"},{"start":10006.29,"end":10008.29,"text":"當初您所關心的就是"},{"start":10008.29,"end":10010.29,"text":"我們在第二項裡面就講"},{"start":10010.29,"end":10012.29,"text":"因為當初並沒有限期改正"},{"start":10012.29,"end":10014.29,"text":"就是說你自己違法"},{"start":10014.29,"end":10016.29,"text":"沒有相關的計畫的時候"},{"start":10016.29,"end":10018.29,"text":"有限期改正第一項"},{"start":10018.29,"end":10020.29,"text":"但第二項就是沒有的時候"},{"start":10020.29,"end":10022.29,"text":"並沒有通知限期改正"},{"start":10022.29,"end":10024.29,"text":"所以他可以無限的"},{"start":10024.29,"end":10026.29,"text":"拖破無限的怎麼樣"},{"start":10026.29,"end":10028.29,"text":"所以我們就為了解決這個問題"},{"start":10028.29,"end":10030.29,"text":"特別加了限期改正"},{"start":10030.29,"end":10032.29,"text":"這樣的話就能夠讓"},{"start":10031.26,"end":10033.26,"text":"不管是原來"},{"start":10033.26,"end":10035.26,"text":"不依照水保法的部分"},{"start":10035.26,"end":10037.26,"text":"跟完全沒有提水保法的部分"},{"start":10037.26,"end":10039.26,"text":"都"},{"start":10038.73,"end":10040.73,"text":"都有處理的方式"},{"start":10040.73,"end":10042.73,"text":"然後第三條就是處理"},{"start":10042.01,"end":10044.01,"text":"要改正的時候怎麼辦"},{"start":10044.01,"end":10046.01,"text":"就是他要地主同意嘛"},{"start":10046.01,"end":10048.01,"text":"地主如果不同意的時候或者是找不到"},{"start":10048.01,"end":10050.01,"text":"這些違規行為人的時候"},{"start":10050.01,"end":10052.01,"text":"我們怎麼辦"},{"start":10052.01,"end":10054.01,"text":"然後都沒辦法處理的時候才會落到24條"},{"start":10054.01,"end":10056.01,"text":"由主管機關代為覺醒"},{"start":10056.01,"end":10058.01,"text":"代為處理"},{"start":10058.01,"end":10060.01,"text":"然後後續才去做相關的追查"},{"start":10064.01,"end":10066.01,"text":"就是說精神上有符合"},{"start":10066.01,"end":10070.01,"text":"就是我當時要立法的一個目的要求"},{"start":10070.01,"end":10074.01,"text":"我大致上看過文字以及後續"},{"start":10074.01,"end":10076.01,"text":"我比較關心是代為旅行"},{"start":10076.01,"end":10078.01,"text":"另外"},{"start":10078.01,"end":10080.01,"text":"在這一條如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":10080.01,"end":10082.01,"text":"等一下的我的32條"},{"start":10082.01,"end":10084.01,"text":"就是等一下我們再討論"},{"start":10084.01,"end":10086.01,"text":"就是我還是希望有罰則"},{"start":10086.01,"end":10088.01,"text":"因為現在倒下去之後"},{"start":10088.01,"end":10090.01,"text":"就是找不到人"},{"start":10090.01,"end":10092.01,"text":"然後就落在那邊"},{"start":10092.01,"end":10094.01,"text":"然後就落在那邊就有風險"},{"start":10094.01,"end":10096.01,"text":"那我覺得這個我們政府機關"},{"start":10096.01,"end":10098.01,"text":"應該要負起這個責任"},{"start":10098.01,"end":10100.01,"text":"那我覺得你們這樣寫"},{"start":10100.01,"end":10102.01,"text":"我OK啦我這樣看起來"},{"start":10102.01,"end":10104.01,"text":"是有達到精神好不好"},{"start":10105.57,"end":10107.57,"text":"好那我們就照這個修正通過"},{"start":10112.16,"end":10114.16,"text":"好接下來進行第32條"},{"start":10118.23,"end":10120.23,"text":"32條的部分我們是"},{"start":10120.23,"end":10122.23,"text":"支持委員提供罰金的上限"},{"start":10122.23,"end":10124.23,"text":"但是我們還是建議"},{"start":10124.23,"end":10126.23,"text":"維持罰金"},{"start":10126.23,"end":10128.23,"text":"就是不定下限"},{"start":10128.64,"end":10130.64,"text":"違規的樣態有非常多"},{"start":10130.64,"end":10132.64,"text":"那有小有大的部分"},{"start":10132.64,"end":10134.64,"text":"那如果說有定下限的時候"},{"start":10134.64,"end":10136.64,"text":"如果是比較輕微的違規的時候"},{"start":10136.64,"end":10140.64,"text":"那可能會造成比較多的一些問題"},{"start":10141.67,"end":10143.67,"text":"好"},{"start":10144.56,"end":10146.56,"text":"那上線就看尊重委員討論的一個"},{"start":10150.11,"end":10152.11,"text":"修正通過是"},{"start":10152.11,"end":10154.11,"text":"上限是2500萬"},{"start":10154.11,"end":10156.11,"text":"然後那個行者"},{"start":10156.11,"end":10158.11,"text":"因為這是對齊這個圖財法的"},{"start":10159.32,"end":10161.32,"text":"你們今天"},{"start":10161.32,"end":10163.32,"text":"我們今天修正的"},{"start":10163.32,"end":10165.32,"text":"2500萬嘛"},{"start":10165.19,"end":10167.19,"text":"好啊現在不要訂"},{"start":10167.19,"end":10169.19,"text":"那2500萬就看那個主席跟違規"},{"start":10169.19,"end":10171.19,"text":"所以這是配合圖財法"},{"start":10171.89,"end":10173.89,"text":"因為我們圖財法已經三讀過了"},{"start":10174.31,"end":10176.31,"text":"好"},{"start":10175.13,"end":10177.13,"text":"下限不要訂"},{"start":10177.13,"end":10179.13,"text":"因為有些農民"},{"start":10179.13,"end":10181.13,"text":"的一些行為"},{"start":10181.13,"end":10183.13,"text":"那如果有些農民的行為"},{"start":10183.13,"end":10185.13,"text":"誤觸了這個法規"},{"start":10185.13,"end":10187.13,"text":"那就罰到200萬可能過重"},{"start":10187.13,"end":10189.13,"text":"所以我們建議說"},{"start":10189.13,"end":10191.13,"text":"還是有上限"},{"start":10191.13,"end":10193.13,"text":"行政單位去裁量"},{"start":10192.94,"end":10194.94,"text":"好"},{"start":10193.83,"end":10195.83,"text":"那你們就文字在"},{"start":10195.84,"end":10197.84,"text":"訂上限我贊成"},{"start":10197.84,"end":10199.84,"text":"下限的不用去訂"},{"start":10199.84,"end":10201.84,"text":"因為有時候善良的農民"},{"start":10202.71,"end":10204.71,"text":"我知道我知道"},{"start":10204.71,"end":10206.71,"text":"你們文字修正"},{"start":10206.66,"end":10208.66,"text":"根據我的修正動議"},{"start":10208.68,"end":10210.68,"text":"我"},{"start":10210.2,"end":10212.2,"text":"委員您的修正動議其實就是"},{"start":10212.2,"end":10214.2,"text":"您的修正動議就是"},{"start":10214.2,"end":10216.2,"text":"左邊修正你只要把那個新台幣200萬"},{"start":10216.2,"end":10218.2,"text":"以上這幾個字殺掉就可以了"},{"start":10218.2,"end":10220.2,"text":"就是得幣第一項"},{"start":10220.2,"end":10222.2,"text":"就是得幣課2500萬以下"},{"start":10222.2,"end":10224.2,"text":"罰金"},{"start":10223.8,"end":10225.8,"text":"OK"},{"start":10227.28,"end":10229.28,"text":"我可以啊就再修正了"},{"start":10229.64,"end":10231.64,"text":"好"},{"start":10253.48,"end":10255.48,"text":"用現行條文"},{"start":10255.48,"end":10257.48,"text":"那我們的罰金的上限"},{"start":10257.48,"end":10259.48,"text":"都尊重委員的意見調高"},{"start":10259.48,"end":10261.48,"text":"其他的部分不要動"},{"start":10261.04,"end":10263.04,"text":"對其他的部分不要動就用現行條文來看"},{"start":10265.41,"end":10267.41,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10268.86,"end":10270.86,"text":"就是有關於罰金的額度我們都同意委員您的調"},{"start":10275.34,"end":10277.34,"text":"好"},{"start":10277.85,"end":10279.85,"text":"現行條文"},{"start":10279.39,"end":10281.39,"text":"你們把文字寫出來"},{"start":10281.39,"end":10283.39,"text":"我們就直接這邊委員簽了就再修正動議"},{"start":10283.39,"end":10285.39,"text":"就好了"},{"start":10285.39,"end":10287.39,"text":"然後金額就是委員的金額"},{"start":10287.39,"end":10289.39,"text":"比如說您後面那個"},{"start":10289.39,"end":10291.39,"text":"有致人於死"},{"start":10291.39,"end":10293.39,"text":"致人於死委員您要的是1億元"},{"start":10293.39,"end":10295.39,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10295.39,"end":10297.39,"text":"那個地方改1億元"},{"start":10297.39,"end":10299.39,"text":"那如果致重傷的部分來講"},{"start":10299.39,"end":10301.39,"text":"改成8000萬"},{"start":10301.39,"end":10303.39,"text":"所以就這個"},{"start":10303.39,"end":10305.39,"text":"現行條文這兩個地方改"},{"start":10305.39,"end":10307.39,"text":"然後過失犯的話"},{"start":10307.35,"end":10309.35,"text":"您是現在過失犯第三項的部分"},{"start":10313.31,"end":10315.31,"text":"改喔"},{"start":10315.31,"end":10317.31,"text":"過失犯沒有改"},{"start":10317.31,"end":10319.31,"text":"就是100萬嘛"},{"start":10319.31,"end":10321.31,"text":"這也是比現行條文調高"},{"start":10321.31,"end":10323.31,"text":"那我們也是尊重100萬"},{"start":10323.31,"end":10325.31,"text":"那第四項就不動了"},{"start":10323.18,"end":10325.18,"text":"第五項也不動"},{"start":10327.24,"end":10329.24,"text":"這個你們把文字弄完"},{"start":10329.24,"end":10331.24,"text":"我們就直接委員簽修正動議"},{"start":10331.24,"end":10333.24,"text":"就可以了"},{"start":10333.24,"end":10335.24,"text":"再修正動議就好"},{"start":10336.26,"end":10338.26,"text":"通通都用現行條文"},{"start":10338.26,"end":10340.26,"text":"只是法軍上線在"},{"start":10339.39,"end":10341.39,"text":"就是你們趕快提案我們委員簽"},{"start":10341.39,"end":10343.39,"text":"再修正動議這樣子"},{"start":10343.39,"end":10345.39,"text":"再念一次喔"},{"start":10345.39,"end":10347.39,"text":"32項第一項的上限是2500萬"},{"start":10347.39,"end":10349.39,"text":"第二項"},{"start":10349.39,"end":10351.39,"text":"那個致死的話他的上限是"},{"start":10351.39,"end":10353.39,"text":"1億元致重傷的上限是8000萬"},{"start":10355.34,"end":10357.34,"text":"就這三點改"},{"start":10363.05,"end":10365.05,"text":"你的刑期那些"},{"start":10365.05,"end":10367.05,"text":"我也是按照圖財法"},{"start":10367.05,"end":10369.05,"text":"委員我比較建議是說"},{"start":10369.05,"end":10371.05,"text":"因為我們有關於刑期"},{"start":10371.05,"end":10373.05,"text":"有關於釀成災害"},{"start":10373.05,"end":10375.05,"text":"第二項釀成災害"},{"start":10375.05,"end":10377.05,"text":"目前加重期刑1%"},{"start":10377.05,"end":10379.05,"text":"我覺得這是現行做法"},{"start":10379.05,"end":10381.05,"text":"沒有太大的困擾"},{"start":10381.05,"end":10383.05,"text":"不要再動它"},{"start":10383.05,"end":10385.05,"text":"不然刑期的部分你要改成無期徒刑"},{"start":10385.05,"end":10387.05,"text":"或一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10387.05,"end":10389.05,"text":"可能我們要尊重問一下法務部"},{"start":10389.05,"end":10391.05,"text":"說這樣的額度調整"},{"start":10389.04,"end":10393.04,"text":"是不是符合刑罰的額度"},{"start":10395.54,"end":10397.54,"text":"好 了解你的意思"},{"start":10397.54,"end":10399.54,"text":"法務部有沒有"},{"start":10400.43,"end":10402.43,"text":"有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":10407.4,"end":10409.4,"text":"法務部有什麼建議"},{"start":10410.56,"end":10412.56,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":10413.69,"end":10415.69,"text":"委員的這個提案我知道"},{"start":10415.69,"end":10417.69,"text":"大概就是跟最新通過的土石採取法"},{"start":10417.69,"end":10419.69,"text":"對阿"},{"start":10419.69,"end":10421.69,"text":"對標"},{"start":10421.69,"end":10423.69,"text":"每一部法律的追求政策目標"},{"start":10423.69,"end":10425.69,"text":"還有立法目的不太一樣"},{"start":10425.69,"end":10427.69,"text":"土石採取法"},{"start":10427.69,"end":10429.69,"text":"是不是跟我們水保法"},{"start":10429.69,"end":10431.69,"text":"這邊的整個"},{"start":10431.69,"end":10433.69,"text":"政策評估是不是完全一致"},{"start":10433.69,"end":10435.69,"text":"這個我尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":10435.69,"end":10437.69,"text":"因為拉的行動非常的高"},{"start":10437.69,"end":10439.69,"text":"那如果主管機關"},{"start":10439.69,"end":10441.69,"text":"在水土保持的"},{"start":10441.69,"end":10443.69,"text":"在水土保持的"},{"start":10444.31,"end":10446.31,"text":"政策管理上他評估"},{"start":10446.31,"end":10448.31,"text":"認為說現行的行動"},{"start":10448.31,"end":10450.31,"text":"已經足以規範了"},{"start":10450.31,"end":10452.31,"text":"那只是說罰金的部分"},{"start":10452.31,"end":10454.31,"text":"那"},{"start":10454.31,"end":10456.31,"text":"裁委員的方式就是提高上限"},{"start":10456.31,"end":10458.31,"text":"這個部分他們在政策"},{"start":10458.31,"end":10460.31,"text":"管理上認為就足以應付"},{"start":10460.31,"end":10462.31,"text":"現在實務上的問題"},{"start":10462.31,"end":10464.31,"text":"那我想還是尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":10464.31,"end":10466.31,"text":"沒有去動到原來的"},{"start":10466.31,"end":10468.31,"text":"法定構成要件跟行動"},{"start":10469.37,"end":10471.37,"text":"然後我要跟委員說明一下"},{"start":10471.37,"end":10473.37,"text":"因為土石採取法裡面的"},{"start":10473.37,"end":10475.37,"text":"大部分是業者"},{"start":10475.37,"end":10477.37,"text":"土石業者"},{"start":10477.37,"end":10479.37,"text":"所以他的下限把他拉高"},{"start":10479.37,"end":10481.37,"text":"沒有太大的問題"},{"start":10481.37,"end":10483.37,"text":"但是我們今天水保法的違規"},{"start":10483.37,"end":10485.37,"text":"有一般是很多是自然人"},{"start":10485.37,"end":10487.37,"text":"有的是農民"},{"start":10487.37,"end":10489.37,"text":"所以如果您後面的那個法則"},{"start":10489.37,"end":10491.37,"text":"就算您的行動下限都把他拉高"},{"start":10491.37,"end":10493.37,"text":"恐怕遇到我們這種純農業"},{"start":10493.37,"end":10495.37,"text":"或者是自然人那些違規"},{"start":10495.37,"end":10497.37,"text":"也都一律適用跟業者"},{"start":10497.37,"end":10499.37,"text":"可能有要思考他的"},{"start":10499.37,"end":10501.37,"text":"政策這樣適不適當"},{"start":10502.29,"end":10504.29,"text":"好"},{"start":10503.45,"end":10505.45,"text":"所以你們還是維持這個"},{"start":10505.45,"end":10507.45,"text":"加重期刑是二分之一"},{"start":10507.45,"end":10509.45,"text":"對 維持現行條文的部分"},{"start":10509.45,"end":10511.45,"text":"就是刑度的部分"},{"start":10511.45,"end":10513.45,"text":"都維持現行的條文"},{"start":10513.45,"end":10515.45,"text":"因為他的確跟第一項還是有落差"},{"start":10515.45,"end":10517.45,"text":"所以你們就是因為"},{"start":10517.45,"end":10519.45,"text":"好 了解你的意思"},{"start":10519.45,"end":10521.45,"text":"就是說還是維持原本"},{"start":10521.45,"end":10523.45,"text":"加重期刑是二分之一這裡"},{"start":10523.45,"end":10525.45,"text":"是"},{"start":10525.9,"end":10527.9,"text":"但是法金金融就是維持我們的上限"},{"start":10527.9,"end":10529.9,"text":"一律標籤那些的"},{"start":10531.18,"end":10533.18,"text":"好 那你們就是再寫一下"},{"start":10533.18,"end":10535.18,"text":"我們再 我們就提再修正統一"},{"start":10535.18,"end":10537.18,"text":"讓我們委員簽 好不好"},{"start":10537.18,"end":10539.18,"text":"委員就在這"},{"start":10541.03,"end":10543.03,"text":"委員那個螢幕的部分來講"},{"start":10543.03,"end":10545.03,"text":"就是紅色的部分就是我們修正的部分"},{"start":10545.03,"end":10547.03,"text":"其餘的條文都跟現行條文一致"},{"start":10550.11,"end":10552.11,"text":"三個額度改"},{"start":10551.7,"end":10553.7,"text":"再稍微放大一點"},{"start":10553.28,"end":10555.28,"text":"是那個病"},{"start":10555.28,"end":10557.28,"text":"是那個病"},{"start":10559.36,"end":10561.36,"text":"是"},{"start":10566.04,"end":10568.04,"text":"第一項就是把原來委員的"},{"start":10568.04,"end":10570.04,"text":"那個兩百萬劃掉而已"},{"start":10570.04,"end":10572.04,"text":"OK 好 第二項我看一下"},{"start":10572.67,"end":10574.67,"text":"加重刑期二分之一"},{"start":10574.67,"end":10576.67,"text":"兌病科新臺幣一億"},{"start":10576.67,"end":10578.67,"text":"以下罰金兌病科八千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":10581.03,"end":10583.03,"text":"好"},{"start":10584.79,"end":10586.79,"text":"OK"},{"start":10585.99,"end":10587.99,"text":"這樣好不好 把它印出來我們這個委員簽名"},{"start":10587.99,"end":10589.99,"text":"再修正統一就可以"},{"start":10592.15,"end":10594.15,"text":"包括剛剛那一條也是"},{"start":10594.41,"end":10596.41,"text":"OK"},{"start":10595.89,"end":10597.89,"text":"就是前面的第23條"},{"start":10597.89,"end":10599.89,"text":"32條"},{"start":10601.26,"end":10603.26,"text":"233"},{"start":10603.26,"end":10605.26,"text":"對阿23條32條都寫出來"},{"start":10605.26,"end":10607.26,"text":"印出來我們就再修正統一"},{"start":10607.26,"end":10609.26,"text":"委員說或什麼"},{"start":10608.82,"end":10610.82,"text":"沒有 第23啦"},{"start":10610.85,"end":10612.85,"text":"第23條"},{"start":10612.85,"end":10614.85,"text":"文字啦"},{"start":10614.85,"end":10616.85,"text":"他就是說文字給他寫出來我們看一下"},{"start":10616.85,"end":10618.85,"text":"再修正統一"},{"start":10618.85,"end":10620.85,"text":"好 第32條就這樣子"},{"start":10620.85,"end":10622.85,"text":"再來我們看第33條"},{"start":10622.85,"end":10624.85,"text":"那33條也是一樣"},{"start":10624.85,"end":10626.85,"text":"我們也同意委員提高罰金"},{"start":10626.85,"end":10628.85,"text":"的法案的上限"},{"start":10628.85,"end":10630.85,"text":"但是建議為是暗示的處罰"},{"start":10630.85,"end":10632.85,"text":"對 我已經改成暗示了"},{"start":10632.85,"end":10634.85,"text":"然後罰金不訂"},{"start":10634.85,"end":10636.85,"text":"下限的規定"},{"start":10636.85,"end":10638.85,"text":"這剛才已經都特別提到了"},{"start":10638.84,"end":10640.84,"text":"然後委員那個部分"},{"start":10640.84,"end":10642.84,"text":"第二項的部分有沒有"},{"start":10642.84,"end":10644.84,"text":"那個最下面有沒有"},{"start":10644.84,"end":10646.84,"text":"最下面應由誰來負擔這個部分"},{"start":10646.84,"end":10648.84,"text":"現行條文是"},{"start":10648.84,"end":10650.84,"text":"經營人使用人或所有人嘛"},{"start":10650.84,"end":10652.84,"text":"那我們剛剛23條創造一個"},{"start":10652.84,"end":10654.84,"text":"我們就想說是違規行為人"},{"start":10654.84,"end":10656.84,"text":"所以這邊的第二"},{"start":10656.84,"end":10658.84,"text":"會加 所以我們會應由優先找"},{"start":10658.84,"end":10660.84,"text":"違規行為人"},{"start":10660.84,"end":10662.84,"text":"應由違規行為人 遁號經營人"},{"start":10662.84,"end":10664.84,"text":"使用人或所有人負擔"},{"start":10664.84,"end":10666.84,"text":"我們會加這一段"},{"start":10666.38,"end":10668.38,"text":"加違規行為人"},{"start":10668.15,"end":10670.15,"text":"負擔的部分"},{"start":10670.25,"end":10674.25,"text":"然後罰金的額度都"},{"start":10674.25,"end":10676.25,"text":"尊重委員的部分調高"},{"start":10678.43,"end":10680.43,"text":"就是你們不要下限"},{"start":10680.43,"end":10682.43,"text":"下限不要上 不要動"},{"start":10682.43,"end":10684.43,"text":"上限這樣子 上限就依委員的意見"},{"start":10684.43,"end":10686.43,"text":"好"},{"start":10687.37,"end":10689.37,"text":"好"},{"start":10688.66,"end":10690.66,"text":"法務局"},{"start":10691.61,"end":10693.61,"text":"跟主席說明"},{"start":10693.61,"end":10695.61,"text":"就說33條"},{"start":10695.61,"end":10697.61,"text":"呃"},{"start":10697.62,"end":10699.62,"text":"修正的主要是在第一項的第二款"},{"start":10699.62,"end":10701.62,"text":"第二款的後段"},{"start":10701.62,"end":10703.62,"text":"增訂了一段"},{"start":10703.62,"end":10705.62,"text":"未經同意三資開發經營"},{"start":10705.62,"end":10707.62,"text":"使用者的"},{"start":10707.62,"end":10709.62,"text":"行政處罰"},{"start":10709.62,"end":10711.62,"text":"那關於他的裁罰"},{"start":10711.62,"end":10713.62,"text":"行政處罰的部分這個部分"},{"start":10713.62,"end":10715.62,"text":"我們就尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":10715.62,"end":10717.62,"text":"不過我們必須要提醒"},{"start":10717.62,"end":10719.62,"text":"就是說因為第二"},{"start":10719.62,"end":10721.62,"text":"款他會連動到"},{"start":10721.62,"end":10723.62,"text":"第三項"},{"start":10723.62,"end":10725.62,"text":"第三項是一個刑事處罰"},{"start":10725.62,"end":10727.62,"text":"的規定"},{"start":10727.62,"end":10729.62,"text":"第一項第二款"},{"start":10729.62,"end":10731.62,"text":"有這些情形自生水土"},{"start":10731.62,"end":10733.62,"text":"流失"},{"start":10733.62,"end":10735.62,"text":"後面有一些刑事"},{"start":10735.62,"end":10737.62,"text":"刑事處罰的規定"},{"start":10737.62,"end":10739.62,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":10739.3,"end":10741.3,"text":"這個部分不是只單純"},{"start":10741.3,"end":10743.3,"text":"行政處"},{"start":10743.3,"end":10745.3,"text":"行政裁罰的部分他會連動到第三項的行政處罰"},{"start":10745.3,"end":10747.3,"text":"那刑事處罰"},{"start":10747.3,"end":10749.3,"text":"他規範的這種行為"},{"start":10749.3,"end":10751.3,"text":"這種類型"},{"start":10751.3,"end":10753.3,"text":"未經同意"},{"start":10753.24,"end":10755.24,"text":"三資開發經營的"},{"start":10755.24,"end":10757.24,"text":"這個"},{"start":10756.56,"end":10758.56,"text":"處罰的類型"},{"start":10758.56,"end":10760.56,"text":"跟32條"},{"start":10760.56,"end":10762.56,"text":"前面那一條32條"},{"start":10762.56,"end":10764.56,"text":"在公有土地等等"},{"start":10764.56,"end":10766.56,"text":"擅自懇職"},{"start":10766.56,"end":10768.56,"text":"佔用或者從事"},{"start":10768.95,"end":10770.95,"text":"相關的開發經營使用行為"},{"start":10770.95,"end":10772.95,"text":"他本來就整條"},{"start":10772.95,"end":10774.95,"text":"都有一個完整的刑事處罰"},{"start":10774.95,"end":10776.95,"text":"規定了"},{"start":10776.95,"end":10778.95,"text":"這樣的話他會"},{"start":10778.95,"end":10780.95,"text":"透過33條"},{"start":10780.95,"end":10782.95,"text":"第三項的規定"},{"start":10782.95,"end":10784.95,"text":"他會跟32條現有的"},{"start":10784.95,"end":10786.95,"text":"刑事處罰規定會產生進合"},{"start":10786.95,"end":10788.95,"text":"那要件又不太一樣"},{"start":10788.95,"end":10790.95,"text":"因為32條"},{"start":10790.95,"end":10792.95,"text":"會拉出來做刑事處罰"},{"start":10792.95,"end":10794.95,"text":"但是限定在"},{"start":10794.82,"end":10796.82,"text":"林區山坡地"},{"start":10797.23,"end":10799.23,"text":"然後他處罰的類型"},{"start":10799.23,"end":10801.23,"text":"比我們"},{"start":10801.23,"end":10803.23,"text":"後面委員的提案還廣"},{"start":10803.23,"end":10805.23,"text":"除了開發行為之外"},{"start":10805.23,"end":10807.23,"text":"他還包括"},{"start":10807.23,"end":10809.23,"text":"佔用懇職等等"},{"start":10810.09,"end":10812.09,"text":"如果在33條"},{"start":10812.09,"end":10814.09,"text":"的第二款"},{"start":10814.09,"end":10816.09,"text":"後段直接加進去"},{"start":10816.09,"end":10818.09,"text":"這一個新增的部分"},{"start":10818.09,"end":10820.09,"text":"他會產生"},{"start":10820.09,"end":10822.09,"text":"跟32條之間有進合"},{"start":10822.09,"end":10824.09,"text":"有矛盾的問題"},{"start":10824.09,"end":10826.09,"text":"所以我們是建議說"},{"start":10826.09,"end":10828.09,"text":"如果主管機關這邊接受"},{"start":10828.09,"end":10830.09,"text":"要增墊這一條"},{"start":10830.09,"end":10832.09,"text":"那不要把它直接加在第二款"},{"start":10832.09,"end":10834.09,"text":"另立一個第三款"},{"start":10834.78,"end":10836.78,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":10836.78,"end":10838.78,"text":"委員您的修正動議"},{"start":10838.78,"end":10840.78,"text":"這個部分法務部講的問題就不存在"},{"start":10840.78,"end":10842.78,"text":"剛剛委員您的修正動議"},{"start":10842.78,"end":10844.78,"text":"33條第一項第二款"},{"start":10844.78,"end":10846.78,"text":"他沒有後半段"},{"start":10846.78,"end":10848.78,"text":"如果這個拿掉當然就沒有這個問題"},{"start":10848.78,"end":10850.78,"text":"如果說主管機關要接受的話"},{"start":10850.78,"end":10852.78,"text":"我們建議他要另立一款"},{"start":10852.78,"end":10854.78,"text":"就不會去牽動到第三項的刑事處罰規定"},{"start":10854.78,"end":10856.78,"text":"所以這樣建議"},{"start":10856.78,"end":10858.78,"text":"你們把討論到現在"},{"start":10858.78,"end":10860.78,"text":"大家最新"},{"start":10860.78,"end":10862.78,"text":"有共識的那個"},{"start":10862.78,"end":10864.78,"text":"不然那個已經刪掉了"},{"start":10864.78,"end":10866.78,"text":"法務部還在講這個內容"},{"start":10866.78,"end":10868.78,"text":"沒有因為他剛沒有看"},{"start":10868.78,"end":10870.78,"text":"委員的後來修正動議今天才發"},{"start":10870.78,"end":10872.78,"text":"那委員您剛的"},{"start":10872.78,"end":10874.78,"text":"未經同意我已經跟您說明"},{"start":10874.78,"end":10876.78,"text":"是用我們23條的第二項就可以處理了"},{"start":10876.78,"end":10878.78,"text":"所以您的罰則那個地方"},{"start":10878.78,"end":10880.78,"text":"就可以不用處理因為他就是當然違法"},{"start":10880.78,"en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"以本次會議一併審查"},{"start":11141.57,"end":11143.57,"text":"我們先從第二條"},{"start":11143.57,"end":11145.57,"text":"開始先請農業部"},{"start":11145.57,"end":11147.57,"text":"說明"},{"start":11147.57,"end":11149.57,"text":"第二條也是一樣就是配合行政委員組織改造"},{"start":11149.57,"end":11151.57,"text":"就是我們"},{"start":11151.57,"end":11153.57,"text":"次次委員的版本"},{"start":11156.19,"end":11158.19,"text":"好所以我們"},{"start":11158.71,"end":11160.71,"text":"就這樣"},{"start":11160.24,"end":11164.24,"text":"萬美齡委員林丹奧委員政天才委員等人的提案"},{"start":11164.24,"end":11166.24,"text":"加案通過"},{"start":11167.52,"end":11169.52,"text":"對還有謝一芬委員"},{"start":11169.52,"end":11171.52,"text":"通過"},{"start":11172.11,"end":11174.11,"text":"這樣的話"},{"start":11174.34,"end":11176.34,"text":"民眾黨團第十條"},{"start":11176.34,"end":11178.34,"text":"第十條的部分"},{"start":11178.34,"end":11180.34,"text":"委員這邊寫一個未經同意的部分"},{"start":11180.34,"end":11182.34,"text":"可是在現行的文字"},{"start":11182.34,"end":11184.34,"text":"那個擅自"},{"start":11184.34,"end":11186.34,"text":"其實就已經涵蓋了未經同意"},{"start":11186.34,"end":11188.34,"text":"所以我們是建議"},{"start":11188.34,"end":11190.34,"text":"為行現行的一個規定"},{"start":11195.16,"end":11197.16,"text":"三波未經同意不得擅自"},{"start":11200.29,"end":11202.29,"text":"對啊"},{"start":11202.29,"end":11204.29,"text":"三字這個字眼"},{"start":11204.29,"end":11206.29,"text":"跟委員說明一下"},{"start":11206.29,"end":11208.29,"text":"當初第十條在公有或他人三波地內"},{"start":11208.29,"end":11210.29,"text":"不得擅自懇職占用"},{"start":11210.29,"end":11212.29,"text":"擅自的意思一定就是沒有經過同意"},{"start":11213.65,"end":11215.65,"text":"所以他這個文字內涵已經包含未經同意的意思了"},{"start":11215.65,"end":11217.65,"text":"所以我們建議是不是"},{"start":11217.65,"end":11219.65,"text":"維持現行條文不予修正"},{"start":11219.65,"end":11221.65,"text":"因為文意是一樣的"},{"start":11226.65,"end":11228.65,"text":"當初我們為什麼要下這個的話"},{"start":11228.65,"end":11230.65,"text":"再回想一下"},{"start":11233.85,"end":11235.85,"text":"對啊"},{"start":11246.19,"end":11248.19,"text":"未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11248.19,"end":11250.19,"text":"這跟不得擅自懇職是一樣"},{"start":11250.19,"end":11252.19,"text":"不用多好嘛"},{"start":11252.19,"end":11254.19,"text":"未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11255.45,"end":11257.45,"text":"對也是一樣"},{"start":11259.4,"end":11261.4,"text":"我們讀這樣可以嗎"},{"start":11261.09,"end":11263.09,"text":"就是未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11265.65,"end":11267.65,"text":"跟不得擅自懇職是一樣的"},{"start":11268.84,"end":11270.84,"text":"感覺未經同意比較理解"},{"start":11273.14,"end":11275.14,"text":"我自治是主席啦"},{"start":11275.14,"end":11277.14,"text":"因為未經同意就要有一個人同意嘛"},{"start":11277.14,"end":11279.14,"text":"那擅自是"},{"start":11279.14,"end":11281.14,"text":"我就大主大義 台語就不一樣了"},{"start":11281.14,"end":11283.14,"text":"不經過你同意 我不可以做"},{"start":11283.14,"end":11285.14,"text":"我不可以大主大義做"},{"start":11285.14,"end":11287.14,"text":"當然才不經過同意"},{"start":11287.14,"end":11289.14,"text":"因為我們也不會那麼無聊說為什麼要加這個"},{"start":11289.14,"end":11291.14,"text":"因為那時候就是你沒有經過這個同意"},{"start":11291.14,"end":11293.14,"text":"因為擅自就是"},{"start":11294.5,"end":11296.5,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":11296.5,"end":11298.5,"text":"全人同意啊"},{"start":11298.5,"end":11300.5,"text":"擅自就包含"},{"start":11299.41,"end":11301.41,"text":"更明確一點"},{"start":11303.11,"end":11305.11,"text":"那是不是未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11307.46,"end":11309.46,"text":"因為如果未經同意"},{"start":11309.46,"end":11311.46,"text":"他還會不會還有一個主持"},{"start":11311.46,"end":11313.46,"text":"未經誰同意不得懇職"},{"start":11313.46,"end":11315.46,"text":"未經同意不得懇職"},{"start":11316.66,"end":11318.66,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11318.95,"end":11320.95,"text":"好"},{"start":11322.35,"end":11324.35,"text":"那我們就修正通過"},{"start":11328.54,"end":11330.54,"text":"非常好"},{"start":11331.32,"end":11333.32,"text":"第15條 徐富可 羅志強"},{"start":11334.82,"end":11336.82,"text":"提案 黃毓波 請說明"},{"start":11336.82,"end":11338.82,"text":"第15條這邊"},{"start":11338.82,"end":11340.82,"text":"我們現行的文字是"},{"start":11340.82,"end":11342.82,"text":"發生災害之虞"},{"start":11342.82,"end":11344.82,"text":"那他的文字範圍其實也包含了"},{"start":11344.82,"end":11346.82,"text":"危害人身安全之虞"},{"start":11347.71,"end":11349.71,"text":"好"},{"start":11348.7,"end":11350.7,"text":"但是我們是希望這樣明確"},{"start":11350.7,"end":11352.7,"text":"所以你們應該也沒有意見吧"},{"start":11352.55,"end":11354.55,"text":"不是 委員您如果這樣寫人身安全"},{"start":11354.55,"end":11356.55,"text":"別人就可能會問"},{"start":11356.55,"end":11358.55,"text":"那財產的安全呢"},{"start":11358.55,"end":11360.55,"text":"那所以那時候我們就前面有"},{"start":11360.55,"end":11362.55,"text":"自身 自有發生災害"},{"start":11362.55,"end":11364.55,"text":"之虞"},{"start":11364.55,"end":11366.55,"text":"那時候的意思喔 只要有災害"},{"start":11366.55,"end":11368.55,"text":"那災害之虞"},{"start":11368.55,"end":11370.55,"text":"那範圍會很大"},{"start":11370.55,"end":11372.55,"text":"如果您只限人身安全"},{"start":11372.55,"end":11374.55,"text":"那財產呢 還有很多的"},{"start":11374.55,"end":11376.55,"text":"部分要處理"},{"start":11376.55,"end":11378.55,"text":"所以我們會比較建議是說"},{"start":11378.55,"end":11380.55,"text":"是不是還是維持現行條文"},{"start":11380.55,"end":11382.55,"text":"都發生災害或危害公共設施"},{"start":11382.55,"end":11384.55,"text":"之虞"},{"start":11384.55,"end":11386.55,"text":"所以意思是說只要有這樣的風險"},{"start":11386.55,"end":11388.55,"text":"我們就要做處理"},{"start":11388.55,"end":11390.55,"text":"我們就可以做限制"},{"start":11390.55,"end":11392.55,"text":"所以您後面限說人身安全"},{"start":11392.55,"end":11394.55,"text":"可能就會凸顯"},{"start":11394.55,"end":11396.55,"text":"怪異漏腕的問題"},{"start":11395.94,"end":11397.94,"text":"不是我提的"},{"start":11397.94,"end":11399.94,"text":"我問一下"},{"start":11398.96,"end":11400.96,"text":"那麼 我很好奇啦"},{"start":11401.39,"end":11403.39,"text":"那麼危害公共設施是不是等同於"},{"start":11404.48,"end":11406.48,"text":"啊"},{"start":11405.57,"end":11407.57,"text":"發生災害 危害公共設施"},{"start":11407.57,"end":11409.57,"text":"算不算發生災害 有沒有被涵蓋在裡面"},{"start":11411.09,"end":11413.09,"text":"好"},{"start":11412.27,"end":11414.27,"text":"發生災害是已經要發生了嘛"},{"start":11414.27,"end":11416.27,"text":"對不對 要明確的"},{"start":11416.27,"end":11418.27,"text":"生命 人身"},{"start":11418.27,"end":11420.27,"text":"財產的損失叫災害嘛"},{"start":11420.27,"end":11422.27,"text":"那危害公共設施是"},{"start":11423.04,"end":11425.04,"text":"危害公共設施"},{"start":11425.04,"end":11427.04,"text":"所以你這個之虞是只有修飾"},{"start":11427.04,"end":11429.04,"text":"危害公共設施 還是指"},{"start":11429.67,"end":11431.67,"text":"連同災害 連發生災害之虞都在裡面"},{"start":11431.67,"end":11433.67,"text":"之虞兩邊前後兩個都有用"},{"start":11433.67,"end":11435.67,"text":"那如果你連發"},{"start":11435.67,"end":11437.67,"text":"有發生災害之虞跟危害公共設施之虞"},{"start":11437.67,"end":11439.67,"text":"那麼請問"},{"start":11439.67,"end":11441.67,"text":"危害公共設施有沒有"},{"start":11441.67,"end":11443.67,"text":"放"},{"start":11442.95,"end":11444.95,"text":"涵蓋在發生災害的當中"},{"start":11445.48,"end":11447.48,"text":"也是啊"},{"start":11447.48,"end":11449.48,"text":"也是嘛 所以其實"},{"start":11449.48,"end":11451.48,"text":"這個法條的原意是說"},{"start":11451.48,"end":11453.48,"text":"只要有發生災害之虞就應該限制"},{"start":11453.48,"end":11455.48,"text":"那特別強調這個發生災害"},{"start":11455.48,"end":11457.48,"text":"的內容呢 還特別標示"},{"start":11457.48,"end":11459.48,"text":"公共設施也是其中之一"},{"start":11459.48,"end":11461.48,"text":"對"},{"start":11462.19,"end":11464.19,"text":"公共設施是在前面災害的"},{"start":11464.19,"end":11466.19,"text":"含色的範圍內"},{"start":11466.19,"end":11468.19,"text":"那如果按照這個邏輯"},{"start":11468.19,"end":11470.19,"text":"人身安全也在這個災害的"},{"start":11470.19,"end":11472.19,"text":"含色範圍內 沒有寫到的財產"},{"start":11472.19,"end":11474.19,"text":"也害這個災害的"},{"start":11474.19,"end":11476.19,"text":"含色範圍內 所以其實"},{"start":11476.19,"end":11478.19,"text":"不管是加入"},{"start":11478.19,"end":11480.19,"text":"危害公共設施或是人身安全"},{"start":11480.19,"end":11482.19,"text":"都是在災害的項目下"},{"start":11482.19,"end":11484.19,"text":"立法者強化"},{"start":11484.19,"end":11486.19,"text":"強調我們的目的 保障的"},{"start":11486.19,"end":11488.19,"text":"課題 所以我是覺得這個到"},{"start":11489.41,"end":11491.41,"text":"也沒有關係啦"},{"start":11491.41,"end":11493.41,"text":"委員只是說您說的問題"},{"start":11493.41,"end":11495.41,"text":"您說的這種說法"},{"start":11495.41,"end":11497.41,"text":"也算一個說法 但是他也可能"},{"start":11497.41,"end":11499.41,"text":"凸顯另外一個說法 為什麼"},{"start":11499.41,"end":11501.41,"text":"因為你現在如果假設 危害公共設施"},{"start":11501.41,"end":11503.41,"text":"及人身安全之虞"},{"start":11503.41,"end":11505.41,"text":"我特別把它寫出來嘛"},{"start":11505.41,"end":11507.41,"text":"公共設施 人身安全他是"},{"start":11507.41,"end":11509.41,"text":"綁在一起 那他就會說"},{"start":11509.41,"end":11511.41,"text":"那這樣私人的財產"},{"start":11511.41,"end":11513.41,"text":"就不在你手上 不會啊 在災害裡面"},{"start":11513.41,"end":11515.41,"text":"因為我們只是在災害"},{"start":11515.41,"end":11517.41,"text":"底下去特別強調公共設施"},{"start":11517.41,"end":11519.41,"text":"現在我們就不夠 還再加上人身安全"},{"start":11519.41,"end":11521.41,"text":"那麼因為在"},{"start":11521.41,"end":11523.41,"text":"如果災害已經含色後面的"},{"start":11523.41,"end":11525.41,"text":"公共設施了 我後面要加"},{"start":11525.41,"end":11527.41,"text":"人身安全 你要加什麼 都是隨便"},{"start":11527.41,"end":11529.41,"text":"我們要重視什麼都可以重視啦"},{"start":11529.41,"end":11531.41,"text":"其實並沒有說民事"},{"start":11531.41,"end":11533.41,"text":"其一排除其他啦 並沒有這個意思嘛"},{"start":11533.41,"end":11535.41,"text":"難道我民事公共設施我就排除其他嗎"},{"start":11535.41,"end":11537.41,"text":"也沒有啊"},{"start":11537.5,"end":11539.5,"text":"好 我是覺得喔"},{"start":11538.97,"end":11540.97,"text":"委員有這樣的一個目的"},{"start":11540.97,"end":11542.97,"text":"盡量讓委員在立法者"},{"start":11542.97,"end":11544.97,"text":"彰顯他們的保障的課題啦"},{"start":11544.97,"end":11546.97,"text":"好不好 我想我們也"},{"start":11546.97,"end":11548.97,"text":"尊重委員的意見啦 因為我們剛才"},{"start":11548.97,"end":11550.97,"text":"只是表達說 就是發生"},{"start":11550.97,"end":11552.97,"text":"災害之虞其實已經涵蓋了 但是"},{"start":11552.97,"end":11554.97,"text":"如果立法裡面要去凸顯的時候"},{"start":11554.97,"end":11556.97,"text":"我想我也尊重委員的意見"},{"start":11557.31,"end":11559.31,"text":"好啦 這樣子 我覺得他只是要強調"},{"start":11559.31,"end":11561.31,"text":"因為你人身嘛"},{"start":11561.31,"end":11563.31,"text":"好不好"},{"start":11562.54,"end":11564.54,"text":"我們就照徐富奎委員"},{"start":11564.54,"end":11566.54,"text":"羅志強委員的提案"},{"start":11566.54,"end":11568.54,"text":"照樣通過"},{"start":11571,"end":11575,"text":"好 接下來台灣民眾黨黨團第34條"},{"start":11575,"end":11577,"text":"34條我們基本上也是"},{"start":11577,"end":11579,"text":"採取一貫的立場 就是"},{"start":11579,"end":11581,"text":"致使委員提高法金的上限"},{"start":11581,"end":11583,"text":"但是建議維持"},{"start":11583,"end":11585,"text":"下限 不定下限的一個規定"},{"start":11586.59,"end":11588.59,"text":"看一下 34條我們的"},{"start":11588.59,"end":11590.59,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":11595.1,"end":11597.1,"text":"所以一樣你也是200萬元以上拿掉"},{"start":11597.1,"end":11599.1,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11598.96,"end":11600.96,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":11603.58,"end":11605.58,"text":"委員下限不定"},{"start":11605.58,"end":11607.58,"text":"所以基本上來講上限就"},{"start":11607.58,"end":11609.58,"text":"維持 維持您要到"},{"start":11609.58,"end":11611.58,"text":"2500萬嘛"},{"start":11611.58,"end":11613.58,"text":"所以第一項就是"},{"start":11613.58,"end":11615.58,"text":"上限調整2500萬"},{"start":11615.58,"end":11617.58,"text":"那第二項刑罰"},{"start":11617.58,"end":11619.58,"text":"是加重1%我們還是維持"},{"start":11619.58,"end":11621.58,"text":"刑警條文 就剛剛跟水保法"},{"start":11621.58,"end":11623.58,"text":"一樣"},{"start":11623.58,"end":11625.58,"text":"所以上限的部分一樣"},{"start":11625.58,"end":11627.58,"text":"您要調整6000萬"},{"start":11627.58,"end":11629.58,"text":"就調成6000萬"},{"start":11629.58,"end":11631.58,"text":"然後有關於自重傷的那個"},{"start":11631.58,"end":11633.58,"text":"以上十年以下 委員您還是"},{"start":11633.58,"end":11635.58,"text":"我們還是維持現行的"},{"start":11635.58,"end":11637.58,"text":"條文"},{"start":11637.58,"end":11639.58,"text":"我們刑度都不調"},{"start":11639.58,"end":11641.58,"text":"我們都只調上限"},{"start":11641.58,"end":11643.58,"text":"罰金的部分的上限都調成8000萬"},{"start":11644.15,"end":11646.15,"text":"這是第二項"},{"start":11648.34,"end":11650.34,"text":"所以第二項只改一個"},{"start":11650.9,"end":11652.9,"text":"沒有三保條例"},{"start":11652.9,"end":11654.9,"text":"就是到三保"},{"start":11654.9,"end":11656.9,"text":"刑期的部分就是1%的原則"},{"start":11656.9,"end":11660.9,"text":"然後新台幣200萬以上的上限就不要"},{"start":11660.9,"end":11662.9,"text":"就這樣子"},{"start":11662.9,"end":11664.9,"text":"上限我們都把它拉高 跟我們委員版本一樣"},{"start":11666.7,"end":11668.7,"text":"刑度我們都不調"},{"start":11668.7,"end":11670.7,"text":"只有罰金調他"},{"start":11670.7,"end":11672.7,"text":"罰金的上限調"},{"start":11672.7,"end":11674.7,"text":"所以第二項第三項都一樣"},{"start":11674.7,"end":11676.7,"text":"那一樣也是"},{"start":11676.7,"end":11678.7,"text":"就是寫出來我們就是在簽名再修正動議"},{"start":11679.78,"end":11681.78,"text":"好 接下來的話"},{"start":11685.06,"end":11687.06,"text":"第35條"},{"start":11687.06,"end":11689.06,"text":"也是一樣"},{"start":11689.06,"end":11691.06,"text":"就是支持委員提高罰金"},{"start":11691.06,"end":11693.06,"text":"好 法官的上限"},{"start":11693.06,"end":11695.06,"text":"但是維持暗示處罰"},{"start":11695.06,"end":11697.06,"text":"然後法官的下限"},{"start":11697.06,"end":11699.06,"text":"跟他的罰金"},{"start":11699.06,"end":11701.06,"text":"他不定下限"},{"start":11702.34,"end":11706.34,"text":"因為我的修正動議也是配合圖裁法"},{"start":11706.34,"end":11708.34,"text":"我都改成暗示"},{"start":11708.34,"end":11710.34,"text":"然後那個字改正那個字"},{"start":11710.34,"end":11712.34,"text":"我把它修正掉 因為那是錯字"},{"start":11712.34,"end":11714.34,"text":"然後其他的話"},{"start":11714.34,"end":11716.34,"text":"一樣就是跟上面的法條一樣"},{"start":11716.34,"end":11718.34,"text":"就是下限"},{"start":11718.34,"end":11720.34,"text":"把它拿掉"},{"start":11720.34,"end":11722.34,"text":"但上限都維持我們委員的一個調整的修正"},{"start":11728.97,"end":11730.97,"text":"所以你現在是在開發這個部份"},{"start":11730.97,"end":11732.97,"text":"我有這一款"},{"start":11732.97,"end":11734.97,"text":"因為我們的現行條文只有"},{"start":11734.97,"end":11736.97,"text":"因為那個我們的現行條文"},{"start":11736.97,"end":11738.97,"text":"只有兩款"},{"start":11739.39,"end":11741.39,"text":"35條"},{"start":11741.39,"end":11743.39,"text":"我們現在討論35條對不對"},{"start":11743.39,"end":11745.39,"text":"35條的時候"},{"start":11745.39,"end":11747.39,"text":"第10條"},{"start":11747.39,"end":11749.39,"text":"剛剛回到一樣第10條"},{"start":11749.39,"end":11751.39,"text":"委員您的那個擅自開發的那個部份"},{"start":11751.39,"end":11753.39,"text":"就跟水保法那個邏輯是一樣的"},{"start":11754.78,"end":11756.78,"text":"所以他不用獨立一款出來"},{"start":11761.18,"end":11763.18,"text":"我們現行條文就是一個因你拒"},{"start":11763.18,"end":11765.18,"text":"一個為你拒嘛"},{"start":11765.18,"end":11767.18,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11767.18,"end":11769.18,"text":"你看喔你看35條現行條文"},{"start":11769.18,"end":11771.18,"text":"就是您這邊第二款依法因你拒"},{"start":11771.18,"end":11773.18,"text":"而為你拒"},{"start":11772.84,"end":11774.84,"text":"這就是你擅自為同意去到"},{"start":11774.84,"end":11776.84,"text":"也一樣是沒有領拒水保計畫"},{"start":11776.84,"end":11778.84,"text":"所以他用這一款的前段就可以"},{"start":11778.84,"end":11780.84,"text":"好所以你把它那個"},{"start":11780.62,"end":11784.62,"text":"那就是配合修正東西這樣出來好不好"},{"start":11784.62,"end":11786.62,"text":"對就要為現行條文的格式處理就可以了"},{"start":11788.97,"end":11790.97,"text":"就邀請他們寫出來好不好"},{"start":11792.84,"end":11794.84,"text":"35條"},{"start":11794.84,"end":11796.84,"text":"好一樣也是寫出來"},{"start":11796.84,"end":11798.84,"text":"我們再簽再修正東西"},{"start":11800.45,"end":11802.45,"text":"好"},{"start":11811.81,"end":11813.81,"text":"接下來我們進行的是"},{"start":11815.82,"end":11817.82,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11817.82,"end":11819.82,"text":"37條"},{"start":11819.82,"end":11821.82,"text":"我想我們尊重原民會的立場"},{"start":11823.06,"end":11825.06,"text":"我們就看那個"},{"start":11825.06,"end":11827.06,"text":"最後一次的提案"},{"start":11828.68,"end":11830.68,"text":"第一跟第二次的合併到第三個部分"},{"start":11832.97,"end":11834.97,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":11834.57,"end":11836.57,"text":"就是這個第三個"},{"start":11836.97,"end":11838.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11838.97,"end":11840.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11840.97,"end":11842.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11842.97,"end":11844.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11844.97,"end":11846.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11846.97,"end":11848.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11848.97,"end":11850.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11850.97,"end":11852.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11852.97,"end":11854.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11854.97,"end":11856.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11856.97,"end":11858.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11858.97,"end":11860.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11860.97,"end":11862.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11862.97,"end":11864.97,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11838.52,"end":11840.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11840.52,"end":11842.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11842.52,"end":11844.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11844.52,"end":11846.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11846.52,"end":11848.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11848.52,"end":11850.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11850.52,"end":11852.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11852.52,"end":11854.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11854.52,"end":11856.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11856.52,"end":11858.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11858.52,"end":11860.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11860.52,"end":11862.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11862.52,"end":11864.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11864.52,"end":11866.52,"text":"第37條"},{"start":11840.7,"end":11842.7,"text":"就第37條"},{"start":11842.7,"end":11844.7,"text":"就第37條的"},{"start":11849.13,"end":11851.13,"text":"跟那個"},{"start":11851.13,"end":11853.13,"text":"跟委員報告就是說37條"},{"start":11853.13,"end":11855.13,"text":"那個部分"},{"start":11855.13,"end":11857.13,"text":"政委員提案的版本大概有三個重點"},{"start":11857.13,"end":11859.13,"text":"第一個重點是有關於"},{"start":11859.13,"end":11861.13,"text":"37條第一項"},{"start":11861.13,"end":11863.13,"text":"跟第二項"},{"start":11863.13,"end":11865.13,"text":"還有就是說那個修正動議"},{"start":11865.13,"end":11867.13,"text":"第四項的部分分別"},{"start":11867.13,"end":11869.13,"text":"針對那個有關於"},{"start":11869.13,"end":11871.13,"text":"部落取得原保地所有權"},{"start":11871.13,"end":11873.13,"text":"的部分有所去"},{"start":11873.13,"end":11875.13,"text":"修正"},{"start":11875.13,"end":11877.13,"text":"那這個部分本會去會比較建議說"},{"start":11877.13,"end":11879.13,"text":"原條文的部分"},{"start":11879.13,"end":11881.13,"text":"那維持原條文的原因"},{"start":11881.13,"end":11883.13,"text":"最主要考慮到說因為依照現行"},{"start":11883.13,"end":11885.13,"text":"土地法跟民法"},{"start":11885.13,"end":11887.13,"text":"有關於不動產登記主體"},{"start":11887.13,"end":11889.13,"text":"的部分是以自然人跟法人"},{"start":11889.13,"end":11891.13,"text":"為限"},{"start":11891.13,"end":11893.13,"text":"那我們新那個修正條文的部分"},{"start":11893.13,"end":11895.13,"text":"因為只有寫部落"},{"start":11895.13,"end":1189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進行條例"},{"start":12140.6,"end":12142.6,"text":"好 第一個我就從後面講"},{"start":12143.91,"end":12145.91,"text":"這個因為研民會"},{"start":12145.91,"end":12147.91,"text":"所提的原住民保留地"},{"start":12148.23,"end":12150.23,"text":"什麼條例"},{"start":12151.01,"end":12153.01,"text":"已經報行很久了"},{"start":12153.03,"end":12155.03,"text":"行政的變異部分要審"},{"start":12155.8,"end":12157.8,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法去幹預"},{"start":12157.8,"end":12159.8,"text":"那現在是這樣我們就"},{"start":12159.8,"end":12161.8,"text":"回到這個本席的"},{"start":12161.8,"end":12163.8,"text":"修正動議"},{"start":12163.8,"end":12165.8,"text":"修正條文"},{"start":12165.84,"end":12167.84,"text":"為什麼要把部落"},{"start":12168.17,"end":12170.17,"text":"內陸進氣"},{"start":12170.17,"end":12172.17,"text":"先不要發 因為等一下還要修"},{"start":12172.32,"end":12174.32,"text":"好 還要修"},{"start":12173.91,"end":12175.91,"text":"為什麼要把部落"},{"start":12175.85,"end":12177.85,"text":"要放進氣"},{"start":12177.49,"end":12179.49,"text":"最主要在我們的"},{"start":12179.66,"end":12181.66,"text":"這個鹽香"},{"start":12183.39,"end":12185.39,"text":"原住民私人的土地就是私人的土地"},{"start":12186.78,"end":12188.78,"text":"這個土地"},{"start":12188.17,"end":12190.17,"text":"我們原住民私人不會去"},{"start":12191.93,"end":12193.93,"text":"不會去占用不會去使用"},{"start":12193.93,"end":12195.93,"text":"就是部落在使用"},{"start":12196.32,"end":12198.32,"text":"所以這個部分是回到"},{"start":12198.32,"end":12200.32,"text":"事實 會回到事實面"},{"start":12201.2,"end":12203.2,"text":"部落"},{"start":12202.71,"end":12204.71,"text":"事實上原計法第二條之一"},{"start":12205.87,"end":12207.87,"text":"已經明定部落是公法人"},{"start":12209.45,"end":12211.45,"text":"只不過"},{"start":12211.03,"end":12213.03,"text":"是"},{"start":12212.1,"end":12214.1,"text":"法律已經授權"},{"start":12214.1,"end":12216.1,"text":"第二條之一"},{"start":12216.1,"end":12218.1,"text":"已經授權"},{"start":12218.05,"end":12220.05,"text":"部落是公法人"},{"start":12220.05,"end":12222.05,"text":"然後授權"},{"start":12221.02,"end":12223.02,"text":"人民會要定這個"},{"start":12223.61,"end":12225.61,"text":"部落公法人的設置辦法"},{"start":12226.24,"end":12228.24,"text":"但是一直沒有定"},{"start":12228.31,"end":12230.31,"text":"已經超過8年了 10年了"},{"start":12232.43,"end":12234.43,"text":"好 而且我們蔡總統也說"},{"start":12235.98,"end":12237.98,"text":"部落公法人的制度已經上路了"},{"start":12237.98,"end":12239.98,"text":"現在已經10年了"},{"start":12239.98,"end":12241.98,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":12242.49,"end":12244.49,"text":"如果你有疑慮的話"},{"start":12245.68,"end":12247.68,"text":"部落公法人你也可以"},{"start":12247.68,"end":12249.68,"text":"部落公法人你也可以"},{"start":12250.52,"end":12252.52,"text":"好"},{"start":12251.45,"end":12253.45,"text":"對不對 如果你剛剛講的土地法守的話"},{"start":12254.74,"end":12256.74,"text":"其實我們很多這個原住民的"},{"start":12256.74,"end":12258.74,"text":"土地的問題"},{"start":12258.74,"end":12260.74,"text":"都是"},{"start":12261.9,"end":12263.9,"text":"現在都是一夜"},{"start":12264,"end":12266,"text":"相關的法律了"},{"start":12266.32,"end":12268.32,"text":"我們現在政法跟保衛隊都繼續做沒有法律的意志了"},{"start":12271.21,"end":12273.21,"text":"因為很特殊"},{"start":12273.12,"end":12275.12,"text":"也不會增加"},{"start":12275.97,"end":12277.97,"text":"就是部落在使用就是在使用"},{"start":12277.97,"end":12279.97,"text":"也不會去增加那些面積土地了"},{"start":12279.97,"end":12281.97,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":12281.97,"end":12283.97,"text":"這個人民會希望能夠支持"},{"start":12283.97,"end":12285.97,"text":"看你要"},{"start":12285.97,"end":12287.97,"text":"如果你一定要加"},{"start":12287.97,"end":12289.97,"text":"部落公法人也沒關係"},{"start":12290.06,"end":12292.06,"text":"好 這是第一個部分"},{"start":12292.61,"end":12294.61,"text":"第二個"},{"start":12295,"end":12297,"text":"這個剛才你講的那個公告限制"},{"start":12297,"end":12299,"text":"加市城那個部分"},{"start":12299,"end":12301,"text":"當然我是參考"},{"start":12301,"end":12303,"text":"早期的"},{"start":12302.26,"end":12304.26,"text":"土地政修條例了"},{"start":12303.95,"end":12305.95,"text":"四號"},{"start":12304.93,"end":12306.93,"text":"那因為土地政修條例現在修得更好"},{"start":12306.93,"end":12308.93,"text":"但是對原住民保留地來說是有害"},{"start":12308.93,"end":12310.93,"text":"但是對原住民保留地來說是有害"},{"start":12312.39,"end":12314.39,"text":"因為"},{"start":12313.75,"end":12315.75,"text":"因為我們周邊都沒有買賣"},{"start":12316.69,"end":12318.69,"text":"沒有買賣就沒有公告限"},{"start":12318.69,"end":12320.69,"text":"就沒有那個什麼市價"},{"start":12320.69,"end":12322.69,"text":"沒有市價"},{"start":12322.69,"end":12324.69,"text":"所以你要加剛才那些文字"},{"start":12324.69,"end":12326.69,"text":"我支持"},{"start":12326.69,"end":12328.69,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12330.1,"end":12332.1,"text":"因為有關地"},{"start":12332.4,"end":12334.4,"text":"倒數第二項那個部分"},{"start":12334.4,"end":12336.4,"text":"就是非原住民建民登記"},{"start":12336.4,"end":12338.4,"text":"無效那個部分"},{"start":12338.4,"end":12340.4,"text":"你們沒有問題嗎"},{"start":12340.4,"end":12342.4,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們有問題"},{"start":12342.4,"end":12344.4,"text":"因為"},{"start":12344.4,"end":12346.4,"text":"無效啊"},{"start":12346.4,"end":12348.4,"text":"對 無效這部分是沒問題"},{"start":12348.4,"end":12350.4,"text":"但是後段那個說"},{"start":12350.4,"end":12352.4,"text":"中央原住民主管機關因查明"},{"start":12352.4,"end":12354.4,"text":"並肅情反反"},{"start":12354.4,"end":12356.4,"text":"這個部分我們在執行面會有困擾"},{"start":12356.4,"end":12358.4,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":12358.76,"end":12360.76,"text":"你剛剛有提到地方政府"},{"start":12360.76,"end":12362.76,"text":"對"},{"start":12362.76,"end":12364.76,"text":"這個你可以在那個最後一項授權的"},{"start":12364.76,"end":12366.76,"text":"訂定 授權訂的辦法裡面"},{"start":12366.76,"end":12368.76,"text":"可以在這個"},{"start":12368.76,"end":12370.76,"text":"授權訂的辦法裡面"},{"start":12370.76,"end":12372.76,"text":"去照"},{"start":12372.76,"end":12374.76,"text":"去把他明定"},{"start":12374.76,"end":12376.76,"text":"現在也是這樣做啊"},{"start":12376.76,"end":12378.76,"text":"也是依這個授權訂的辦法來做啊"},{"start":12378.76,"end":12380.76,"text":"只不過是我們"},{"start":12379.16,"end":12381.16,"text":"很明確的依最高行政法院的判決"},{"start":12382.97,"end":12384.97,"text":"他是無效的"},{"start":12386.04,"end":12388.04,"text":"要把它法制化"},{"start":12388.04,"end":12390.04,"text":"地方政府才會去"},{"start":12390.04,"end":12392.04,"text":"重視才會去執行"},{"start":12392.04,"end":12394.04,"text":"報告委員因為你這邊如果把它"},{"start":12394.04,"end":12396.04,"text":"變成法律條文的一個象徵的話"},{"start":12396.04,"end":12398.04,"text":"因為這個是規定在法律"},{"start":12398.04,"end":12400.04,"text":"的層次裡面"},{"start":12400.04,"end":12402.04,"text":"那如果說這邊明定是中央原住民"},{"start":12402.04,"end":12404.04,"text":"主管機關要肅情反反的話"},{"start":12404.04,"end":12406.04,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":12406.04,"end":12408.04,"text":"地方政府尤其是公所的部分他們會"},{"start":12408.04,"end":12410.04,"text":"覺得說那個是你原民會的事"},{"start":12410.04,"end":12412.04,"text":"他不會去造作"},{"start":12411.49,"end":12413.49,"text":"我們實務上"},{"start":12413.49,"end":12415.49,"text":"我要跟委員拜託"},{"start":12415.49,"end":12417.49,"text":"因為這個部分不是規定在法律條文裡面"},{"start":12420.18,"end":12422.18,"text":"不是我來說我補充一下"},{"start":12422.18,"end":12424.18,"text":"補充一下"},{"start":12424.92,"end":12426.92,"text":"他剛講的現在就是"},{"start":12428.62,"end":12430.62,"text":"現在就是了"},{"start":12431.27,"end":12433.27,"text":"第一個"},{"start":12432.89,"end":12436.89,"text":"原住民保留地的管理機關就是你們"},{"start":12437.77,"end":12439.77,"text":"如果就法律的主管機關"},{"start":12439.77,"end":12441.77,"text":"原住民保留地法律主管也是你們"},{"start":12443.62,"end":12445.62,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12444.38,"end":12446.38,"text":"這本來就是你們也可以"},{"start":12447.42,"end":12449.42,"text":"好這"},{"start":12448.89,"end":12450.89,"text":"這個怎麼樣去把它讓地方政府"},{"start":12450.89,"end":12452.89,"text":"能夠去"},{"start":12452.89,"end":12454.89,"text":"去執行所以你們可以"},{"start":12454.89,"end":12456.89,"text":"在那個辦法裡面去做"},{"start":12456.89,"end":12458.89,"text":"去做授權"},{"start":12458.44,"end":12460.44,"text":"我真的是誠實的"},{"start":12460.44,"end":12462.44,"text":"如果說在我們的"},{"start":12462.44,"end":12464.44,"text":"最後一個項次授權"},{"start":12464.44,"end":12466.44,"text":"的規定的部分有關於全責"},{"start":12466.44,"end":12468.44,"text":"分工的部分去"},{"start":12468.44,"end":12470.44,"text":"明定一個授權的項次"},{"start":12470.44,"end":12472.44,"text":"這個我沒意見"},{"start":12472.44,"end":12474.44,"text":"但是我覺得如果說要"},{"start":12474.44,"end":12476.44,"text":"在那個修正"},{"start":12476.44,"end":12478.44,"text":"動議的第七項的部分"},{"start":12478.44,"end":12480.44,"text":"後段文字說要由我們原住民"},{"start":12480.44,"end":12482.44,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":12484.49,"end":12486.49,"text":"從你的"},{"start":12485.64,"end":12487.64,"text":"我建議一下陳醫師的問題"},{"start":12487.64,"end":12489.64,"text":"我先問一下"},{"start":12489.64,"end":12491.64,"text":"請問目前我們有沒有原住民保留地"},{"start":12491.64,"end":12493.64,"text":"不屬於三波地的範圍"},{"start":12493.64,"end":12495.64,"text":"的範圍有沒有"},{"start":12495.64,"end":12497.64,"text":"有"},{"start":12496.86,"end":12498.86,"text":"所以我們要了解"},{"start":12498.86,"end":12500.86,"text":"現在我們在談的是三波地"},{"start":12500.86,"end":12502.86,"text":"在三波地當中第三次機"},{"start":12502.86,"end":12504.86,"text":"要處理的時候三波地當中屬於原保"},{"start":12504.86,"end":12506.86,"text":"地的部分怎麼處理但是"},{"start":12506.86,"end":12508.86,"text":"整體的原住民保留地他不限定"},{"start":12508.86,"end":12510.86,"text":"在三波地他也有會發生"},{"start":12510.86,"end":12512.86,"text":"建民登記的情況是也會發生"},{"start":12512.86,"end":12514.86,"text":"說國家要使用的時候"},{"start":12514.86,"end":12516.86,"text":"要什麼程序使用至於說"},{"start":12516.86,"end":12518.86,"text":"部落是不是未來可以明定"},{"start":12518.86,"end":12520.86,"text":"在承受人"},{"start":12520.86,"end":12522.86,"text":"的一個當中那還要有"},{"start":12522.86,"end":12524.86,"text":"內政部地政單位去表達"},{"start":12524.86,"end":12526.86,"text":"所以我是建議我們原保地"},{"start":12526.86,"end":12528.86,"text":"總體的問題我覺得"},{"start":12529.38,"end":12531.38,"text":"政天臺委員來講這個"},{"start":12531.38,"end":12533.38,"text":"讓我們大家都了解很重要"},{"start":12533.38,"end":12535.38,"text":"但是因為我們今天經濟委員會審查的標的"},{"start":12535.38,"end":12537.38,"text":"是三波地"},{"start":12537.38,"end":12539.38,"text":"三波地當中在37條特別提到"},{"start":12539.38,"end":12541.38,"text":"原保地的部分他是不是"},{"start":12541.38,"end":12543.38,"text":"在這邊修法的效果要含色到"},{"start":12543.38,"end":12545.38,"text":"所有的原保地我是覺得"},{"start":12545.38,"end":12547.38,"text":"因是不是請原民會"},{"start":12547.38,"end":12549.38,"text":"說明一下還有沒有全部"},{"start":12549.38,"end":12551.38,"text":"原住民保留地的上位的"},{"start":12551.38,"end":12553.38,"text":"管理的法令我們在那個"},{"start":12553.38,"end":12555.38,"text":"法令上來處理包括部落"},{"start":12555.38,"end":12557.38,"text":"包括建民登記這個問題"},{"start":12557.38,"end":12559.38,"text":"因為目前我們要取得的你看37條怎麼講"},{"start":12560.58,"end":12562.58,"text":"37條他只有解"},{"start":12562.58,"end":12564.58,"text":"三波地範圍內的原住民保留地"},{"start":12564.58,"end":12566.58,"text":"我們在這裡只是處理"},{"start":12566.58,"end":12568.58,"text":"三波地範圍內的原住民保留地"},{"start":12568.58,"end":12570.58,"text":"而且他是強調說"},{"start":12570.58,"end":12572.58,"text":"為了要保障原住民的權利"},{"start":12572.58,"end":12574.58,"text":"所以37條他基本上"},{"start":12574.58,"end":12576.58,"text":"是在三波地當中保障"},{"start":12576.58,"end":12578.58,"text":"原住民保留地的一個"},{"start":12578.58,"end":12580.58,"text":"權利"},{"start":12579.69,"end":12581.69,"text":"那至於說原住民保留地整體政策要怎麼處理"},{"start":12581.69,"end":12583.69,"text":"部落可不可以"},{"start":12583.69,"end":12585.69,"text":"成為一個承受人之一"},{"start":12585.69,"end":12587.69,"text":"我們是不是請說明一下原民會"},{"start":12587.69,"end":12589.69,"text":"說明還有沒有哪些法令我們要一併"},{"start":12589.69,"end":12591.69,"text":"要去處理"},{"start":12593.24,"end":12595.24,"text":"沒關係那個我先跟"},{"start":12595.24,"end":12597.24,"text":"中委報告一下的確"},{"start":12597.24,"end":12599.24,"text":"剛剛委員提到一個"},{"start":12599.24,"end":12601.24,"text":"一個關鍵的重點就是說"},{"start":12601.24,"end":12603.24,"text":"因為現行"},{"start":12603.24,"end":12605.24,"text":"法制的部分的確"},{"start":12605.24,"end":12607.24,"text":"我們有關於原住民"},{"start":12607.24,"end":12609.24,"text":"保留地管理的一個最高法規"},{"start":12609.24,"end":12611.24,"text":"接的確是現在依附在三波地"},{"start":12611.24,"end":12613.24,"text":"保留利用條例那剛剛委員提到"},{"start":12613.24,"end":12615.24,"text":"一個重點就是說因為三波地保留"},{"start":12615.24,"end":12617.24,"text":"利用條例要處理的部分就是三波地範圍"},{"start":12617.24,"end":12619.24,"text":"但實務上"},{"start":12619.24,"end":12621.24,"text":"實務上的部分就是說"},{"start":12621.24,"end":12623.24,"text":"我們在不限於"},{"start":12623.24,"end":12625.24,"text":"三波地範圍"},{"start":12625.24,"end":12627.24,"text":"因為那個三保條例"},{"start":12627.24,"end":12629.24,"text":"三十七條最後一項"},{"start":12629.24,"end":12631.24,"text":"他有授權"},{"start":12632.27,"end":12634.27,"text":"授權我們原民會去定原住民保留地"},{"start":12634.27,"end":12636.27,"text":"開放管理辦法所以我們就是"},{"start":12636.27,"end":12638.27,"text":"因為依據這個授權的部分"},{"start":12638.27,"end":12640.27,"text":"進一步去處理不然是三波地範圍"},{"start":12640.27,"end":12642.27,"text":"之內或者是非三波地範圍"},{"start":12642.27,"end":12644.27,"text":"之內的部分我們一併去做"},{"start":12644.27,"end":12646.27,"text":"一個處理因為這個是繼續保障"},{"start":12646.27,"end":12648.27,"text":"原住民權益當然就是說"},{"start":12648.27,"end":12650.27,"text":"我跟中委報告就是說我們從"},{"start":12650.27,"end":12652.27,"text":"製度面去解釋這個問題的話"},{"start":12652.27,"end":12654.27,"text":"我們已經擬據了原住民保留地"},{"start":12654.27,"end":12656.27,"text":"回復及權利管理"},{"start":12656.27,"end":12658.27,"text":"條例的部分暴行這件事情"},{"start":12658.27,"end":12660.27,"text":"我們也是希望從三保條例這邊脫"},{"start":12660.27,"end":12662.27,"text":"勾勾去處理不要依附在三保條例"},{"start":12662.27,"end":12664.27,"text":"裡面這個才是一個根本的"},{"start":12664.27,"end":12666.27,"text":"解決之道"},{"start":12665.93,"end":12667.93,"text":"好"},{"start":12667.15,"end":12669.15,"text":"我來講歷史"},{"start":12669.26,"end":12671.26,"text":"簡單的我很簡約"},{"start":12672.63,"end":12674.63,"text":"很簡約"},{"start":12674.39,"end":12676.39,"text":"第一開始"},{"start":12675.92,"end":12677.92,"text":"台安省政府"},{"start":12677.48,"end":12679.48,"text":"電來個3D保留地管理辦法"},{"start":12680.48,"end":12682.48,"text":"然後來"},{"start":12681.88,"end":12683.88,"text":"這個提高為這個中央的"},{"start":12683.88,"end":12685.88,"text":"位階就是內政部"},{"start":12686.49,"end":12688.49,"text":"那後來因為要有法律的"},{"start":12689.27,"end":12691.27,"text":"一致"},{"start":12690.28,"end":12692.28,"text":"一開始沒有法律的一致了"},{"start":12692.49,"end":12694.49,"text":"然後才"},{"start":12694.49,"end":12696.49,"text":"到底要依附在哪裡"},{"start":12696.29,"end":12698.29,"text":"所以當時的政府"},{"start":12698.28,"end":12700.28,"text":"把它依附在這個"},{"start":12700.28,"end":12702.28,"text":"三保地保留地條例上七條"},{"start":12702.87,"end":12704.87,"text":"然後你會看到三十七條在負責那邊"},{"start":12706.18,"end":12708.18,"text":"不是在前面"},{"start":12708.34,"end":12710.34,"text":"所以現在的實施"},{"start":12711.24,"end":12713.24,"text":"好"},{"start":12712.02,"end":12714.02,"text":"總委現在的管理辦法"},{"start":12714.77,"end":12716.77,"text":"三十七條授權定的管理辦法"},{"start":12719.26,"end":12721.26,"text":"包含三保地以外的原准保留地"},{"start":12722.77,"end":12724.77,"text":"所以"},{"start":12724.77,"end":12726.77,"text":"應該要回歸到原住民族基本法"},{"start":12730.31,"end":12732.31,"text":"原住民族基本法明訂"},{"start":12732.31,"end":12734.31,"text":"要制定原住民族土地及海法"},{"start":12737.6,"end":12739.6,"text":"但是過去的"},{"start":12739.59,"end":12741.59,"text":"八年甚至現在的十年"},{"start":12742.5,"end":12744.5,"text":"延民會啊延民會"},{"start":12744.5,"end":12746.5,"text":"連送到行政院都沒有"},{"start":12747.07,"end":12749.07,"text":"都沒有把原住民族土地及海法"},{"start":12750.14,"end":12752.14,"text":"都沒有送到"},{"start":12752.14,"end":12754.14,"text":"雖然我們蔡總統說"},{"start":12753.87,"end":12755.87,"text":"我們也很快的會吧"},{"start":12755.96,"end":12757.96,"text":"原住民族土地及海法"},{"start":12758.98,"end":12760.98,"text":"送到立法院"},{"start":12761.56,"end":12763.56,"text":"已經超過十年沒有送"},{"start":12763.52,"end":12765.52,"text":"而且延民會連送都沒有送"},{"start":12766.74,"end":12768.74,"text":"所以這個部分啊"},{"start":12768.74,"end":12770.74,"text":"原住民保留地什麼條例"},{"start":12770.74,"end":12772.74,"text":"那個根本就是不符合原住民族基本法"},{"start":12772.74,"end":12774.74,"text":"所以我們只好啊"},{"start":12774.74,"end":12776.74,"text":"我們只好不得不"},{"start":12777.56,"end":12779.56,"text":"繼續依附在這個"},{"start":12779.56,"end":12781.56,"text":"三保地百二六條例"},{"start":12781.56,"end":12783.56,"text":"三十七條"},{"start":12783.56,"end":12785.56,"text":"是這樣的一個原由啦"},{"start":12785.56,"end":12787.56,"text":"做說明"},{"start":12786.88,"end":12788.88,"text":"各位報告就是說"},{"start":12788.88,"end":12790.88,"text":"我們現在手上我們有一個"},{"start":12790.88,"end":12792.88,"text":"三十七條建議的修正"},{"start":12792.88,"end":12794.88,"text":"的版本"},{"start":12794.88,"end":12796.88,"text":"那紅字的部分是我們"},{"start":12796.88,"end":12798.88,"text":"建議修正的一些文字"},{"start":12798.88,"end":12800.88,"text":"那我跟各位報告一下"},{"start":12800.88,"end":12802.88,"text":"就是說有關於第二項的部分"},{"start":12802.88,"end":12804.88,"text":"我們紅字的部分就是增加"},{"start":12804.88,"end":12806.88,"text":"就是說今天如果"},{"start":12806.88,"end":12808.88,"text":"原保地如果移轉"},{"start":12808.88,"end":12810.88,"text":"如果有違反這種情形的話"},{"start":12810.88,"end":12812.88,"text":"它的法律效果就是無效"},{"start":12812.88,"end":12814.88,"text":"這個部分就是建民登記的法律效果"},{"start":12814.88,"end":12816.88,"text":"所以這個部分我們有參採"},{"start":12816.88,"end":12818.88,"text":"那個我們政委員的意見"},{"start":12818.88,"end":12820.88,"text":"那第三項跟第四項第五項"},{"start":12820.88,"end":12822.88,"text":"的部分就是政委員"},{"start":12822.88,"end":12824.88,"text":"所希望就是我們要"},{"start":12824.88,"end":12826.88,"text":"提出一些去杜絕"},{"start":12826.88,"end":12828.88,"text":"建民登記的一些具體方法"},{"start":12828.88,"end":12830.88,"text":"那這部分我們很"},{"start":12830.88,"end":12832.88,"text":"我們原理會很負責任的就是說"},{"start":12832.88,"end":12834.88,"text":"私有原表地"},{"start":12834.88,"end":12836.88,"text":"他的如果說移轉那事先"},{"start":12836.88,"end":12838.88,"text":"要透過拒絕的身份去拒絕"},{"start":12838.88,"end":12840.88,"text":"他將來這個所有權的移轉"},{"start":12840.88,"end":12842.88,"text":"他不會移轉給非原住民"},{"start":12842.88,"end":12844.88,"text":"這是第三項"},{"start":12844.88,"end":12846.88,"text":"那第四項的部分我們要賦予"},{"start":12846.88,"end":12848.88,"text":"公所的部分有一個事前"},{"start":12848.88,"end":12850.88,"text":"查核的這樣子的一個"},{"start":12850.88,"end":12852.88,"text":"權限讓他們可以在事前"},{"start":12852.88,"end":12854.88,"text":"他辦理那個主任"},{"start":12854.88,"end":12856.88,"text":"要辦理所有權益的登記的時候他做一個"},{"start":12856.88,"end":12858.88,"text":"事先的一個審查"},{"start":12858.88,"end":12860.88,"text":"然後第五項的部分如果說"},{"start":12860.88,"end":12862.88,"text":"如果經行政調查"},{"start":12862.88,"end":12864.88,"text":"是確定是有這種"},{"start":12864.88,"end":12866.88,"text":"所謂建民登記的情形的話"},{"start":12866.88,"end":12868.88,"text":"那我們主辦機關的部分"},{"start":12868.88,"end":12870.88,"text":"可以不經過向"},{"start":12870.88,"end":12872.88,"text":"法院訴請圖銷登記"},{"start":12872.88,"end":12874.88,"text":"就可以把事前的部分"},{"start":12874.88,"end":12876.88,"text":"就可以駁回所有權的登記的"},{"start":12876.88,"end":12878.88,"text":"行政處分那如果"},{"start":12878.88,"end":12880.88,"text":"已經查出來他確實有違反"},{"start":12880.88,"end":12882.88,"text":"拒絕這種情形的話我們會"},{"start":12882.88,"end":12884.88,"text":"有被廢止原來的"},{"start":12884.88,"end":12886.88,"text":"核准的這樣子"},{"start":12886.88,"end":12888.88,"text":"的一個處分並且喊起登機關"},{"start":12888.88,"end":12890.88,"text":"那個那個圖銷"},{"start":12890.88,"end":12892.88,"text":"他所有權登記的這個部分"},{"start":12892.88,"end":12894.88,"text":"我們覺得好這個部分是"},{"start":12894.88,"end":12896.88,"text":"雖然這個是失權"},{"start":12896.88,"end":12898.88,"text":"的一個正義但是我們原民"},{"start":12898.88,"end":12900.88,"text":"會從公權力建議"},{"start":12900.88,"end":12902.88,"text":"那個介入的一個角度"},{"start":12902.88,"end":12904.88,"text":"來去做一個事前審核跟事後"},{"start":12904.88,"end":12906.88,"text":"的一個查核的"},{"start":12906.88,"end":12908.88,"text":"這樣子一個動作我相信"},{"start":12908.88,"end":12910.88,"text":"我們提出來的這個版本第一個"},{"start":12910.88,"end":12912.88,"text":"是符合那個我們"},{"start":12912.88,"end":12914.88,"text":"政委員他的一個意旨"},{"start":12914.88,"end":12916.88,"text":"第二個就是說我們也是"},{"start":12916.88,"end":12918.88,"text":"很負責任的就是把這樣子"},{"start":12918.88,"end":12920.88,"text":"的一個行政部門因"},{"start":12920.88,"end":12922.88,"text":"介入調查他可以行使公權力"},{"start":12922.88,"end":12924.88,"text":"的依據明定在法律條文"},{"start":12924.88,"end":12926.88,"text":"裡面讓我們縣市"},{"start":12926.88,"end":12928.88,"text":"政府跟公所他在進行行政"},{"start":12928.88,"end":12930.88,"text":"查核的時候他有一個權限"},{"start":12930.88,"end":12932.88,"text":"可以去做一個處理"},{"start":12932.88,"end":12934.88,"text":"然後在第九項那個部分"},{"start":12934.88,"end":12936.88,"text":"我想這個部分剛剛那個我已經"},{"start":12936.88,"end":12938.88,"text":"跟政委員報告過我們也是依照"},{"start":12938.88,"end":12940.88,"text":"政委員的一些建議去做一個"},{"start":12940.88,"end":12942.88,"text":"後段文字的一個調整那剛剛"},{"start":12942.88,"end":12944.88,"text":"委員也這個部分也是說OK我想這個"},{"start":12944.88,"end":12946.88,"text":"部分我們應該是有共識的以上"},{"start":12952.54,"end":12954.54,"text":"我有意見啦"},{"start":12954.54,"end":12956.54,"text":"請問處長你這個用心良苦我覺得"},{"start":12956.54,"end":12958.54,"text":"這個第三項第四項第五項增加在"},{"start":12958.54,"end":12960.54,"text":"第二項之後原定的第三項"},{"start":12960.54,"end":12962.54,"text":"之前這裡是在處理"},{"start":12962.54,"end":12964.54,"text":"所有元寶地的建明登記"},{"start":12964.54,"end":12966.54,"text":"是處理屬於"},{"start":12966.54,"end":12968.54,"text":"山坡地範圍內的元寶地"},{"start":12968.54,"end":12970.54,"text":"全部"},{"start":12970.56,"end":12972.56,"text":"我問你"},{"start":12972.56,"end":12974.56,"text":"如果不是山坡地的"},{"start":12974.56,"end":12976.56,"text":"原住民保留地我們要"},{"start":12976.56,"end":12978.56,"text":"來適用山坡地保育"},{"start":12978.56,"end":12980.56,"text":"條例我強調一個事情"},{"start":12980.56,"end":12982.56,"text":"我們屏東有"},{"start":12982.56,"end":12984.56,"text":"也不要說是全台灣"},{"start":12984.56,"end":12986.56,"text":"相當多的原住民有八個原住民"},{"start":12986.56,"end":12988.56,"text":"鄉那這些原住民鄉"},{"start":12988.56,"end":12990.56,"text":"他們的地呢有很多"},{"start":12990.56,"end":12992.56,"text":"它的坡度其實並"},{"start":12992.56,"end":12994.56,"text":"不是算山坡"},{"start":12994.56,"end":12996.56,"text":"大家不要以為原寶地一定是"},{"start":12996.56,"end":12998.56,"text":"在有坡度達到山坡地"},{"start":12998.56,"end":13000.56,"text":"認定的地方"},{"start":13000.56,"end":13002.56,"text":"但是因為幾乎他們"},{"start":13002.56,"end":13004.56,"text":"幾乎就是被認定在"},{"start":13004.29,"end":13006.29,"text":"山坡地內反而造成"},{"start":13006.29,"end":13008.29,"text":"在原鄉地區其實並"},{"start":13008.29,"end":13010.29,"text":"沒有屬於山坡地地形的"},{"start":13010.29,"end":13012.29,"text":"土地它在使用"},{"start":13012.29,"end":13014.29,"text":"上會受到我們山坡地保育"},{"start":13014.29,"end":13016.29,"text":"條例限制我想這點處理"},{"start":13016.29,"end":13018.29,"text":"很清楚是那我們過去一直努力"},{"start":13018.29,"end":13020.29,"text":"的就是希望讓這些原寶地"},{"start":13020.29,"end":13022.29,"text":"它能夠"},{"start":13022.29,"end":13024.29,"text":"不要那麼全部大範圍的"},{"start":13024.29,"end":13026.29,"text":"蓋花性的涵蓋在山坡地"},{"start":13026.29,"end":13028.29,"text":"當中可以不用去適用"},{"start":13028.29,"end":13030.29,"text":"山坡地保育條例才能進行"},{"start":13030.29,"end":13032.29,"text":"它適當的開發行為"},{"start":13032.29,"end":13034.29,"text":"是那你現在"},{"start":13034.29,"end":13036.29,"text":"因為剛政委講的是一個歷史的"},{"start":13036.29,"end":13038.29,"text":"一個過程嘛"},{"start":13038.29,"end":13040.29,"text":"當時沒有法所以依附在山坡地保育"},{"start":13040.29,"end":13042.29,"text":"條例是那因為依附在山坡地"},{"start":13042.29,"end":13044.29,"text":"保育條例原寶地原住民"},{"start":13044.29,"end":13046.29,"text":"保留地就有一個管理"},{"start":13046.29,"end":13048.29,"text":"的一個辦法是但是你這樣"},{"start":13048.29,"end":13050.29,"text":"就逼著所有的原住民的保留地"},{"start":13050.29,"end":13052.29,"text":"它都必須被認定"},{"start":13052.29,"end":13054.29,"text":"是山坡地後它才能夠"},{"start":13054.29,"end":13056.29,"text":"得到這個事法性上的適用"},{"start":13056.29,"end":13058.29,"text":"但是你去適用山坡地"},{"start":13058.29,"end":13060.29,"text":"保育條例不見得對於"},{"start":13060.29,"end":13062.29,"text":"我們原保地當中非屬於山坡地性質的"},{"start":13062.29,"end":13064.29,"text":"因為山坡地保育條例"},{"start":13064.29,"end":13066.29,"text":"對土地的使用有相當嚴格的規範"},{"start":13066.29,"end":13068.29,"text":"那這個過去我們很多原住民"},{"start":13068.29,"end":13070.29,"text":"他的土地呢其實那個情況"},{"start":13070.29,"end":13072.29,"text":"我們去看了是平坦的"},{"start":13072.29,"end":13074.29,"text":"可是他就是因為山坡地保育條例"},{"start":13074.29,"end":13076.29,"text":"才能適用所以他被"},{"start":13076.29,"end":13078.29,"text":"被勉強的被認"},{"start":13078.29,"end":13080.29,"text":"被山坡地了啦"},{"start":13080.29,"end":13082.29,"text":"被山坡地了我們還希望趕快"},{"start":13082.29,"end":13084.29,"text":"能夠拉出來所以我是個人"},{"start":13084.29,"end":13086.29,"text":"是傾向說行政院這邊要趕快的"},{"start":13086.29,"end":13088.29,"text":"就所有的原保地"},{"start":13088.29,"end":13090.29,"text":"把包括建民登記的部分能夠含塞進去"},{"start":13090.29,"end":13092.29,"text":"那這樣的話我們今天"},{"start":13092.29,"end":13094.29,"text":"修山坡地保育條例未來"},{"start":13094.29,"end":13096.29,"text":"只有這個地方有建民登記的處理"},{"start":13096.29,"end":13098.29,"text":"那麼變成原住民他只要處理說"},{"start":13098.29,"end":13100.29,"text":"我要去阻擋我的原保地要適用這個建民登記"},{"start":13100.29,"end":13102.29,"text":"我就必須說我這個是山坡地"},{"start":13102.29,"end":13104.29,"text":"我才能來適用"},{"start":13104.29,"end":13106.29,"text":"事實上一個原住民保留地他的使用開發行為"},{"start":13106.29,"end":13108.29,"text":"有時候會因為在山坡地"},{"start":13108.29,"end":13110.29,"text":"的條例較有利"},{"start":13110.29,"end":13112.29,"text":"是我們適用之"},{"start":13112.29,"end":13114.29,"text":"有時候是適用山坡地保育條例較為不利"},{"start":13114.29,"end":13116.29,"text":"我們希望不要適用之"},{"start":13116.29,"end":13118.29,"text":"這樣的情況你們在法治法有沒有想過"},{"start":13118.29,"end":13120.29,"text":"有跟委員報告其實"},{"start":13120.29,"end":13122.29,"text":"剛剛委員提示的那個部分"},{"start":13122.29,"end":13124.29,"text":"就是我們原保地的範圍"},{"start":13124.29,"end":13126.29,"text":"其實本來就不適用於山坡地範圍之內"},{"start":13126.29,"end":13128.29,"text":"所以跟委員報告"},{"start":13128.29,"end":13130.29,"text":"其實我們現在剛剛委員我們給你"},{"start":13130.29,"end":13132.29,"text":"那些修正條文的建議文字"},{"start":13132.29,"end":13134.29,"text":"第三項到第五項的那個部分"},{"start":13134.29,"end":13136.29,"text":"其實就是從我們原保地"},{"start":13136.29,"end":13138.29,"text":"的條例裡面的第13條"},{"start":13138.29,"end":13140.29,"text":"把它移列過來"},{"start":13140.29,"end":13142.29,"text":"到山坡地保育條例37條"},{"start":13142.29,"end":13144.29,"text":"那因為我跟委員"},{"start":13144.29,"end":13146.29,"text":"我跟委員報告因為那個"},{"start":13146.29,"end":13148.29,"text":"那你們這個條文行政院這三個項目都看過了嗎"},{"start":13148.29,"end":13150.29,"text":"目前是還沒有審議"},{"start":13150.29,"end":13152.29,"text":"但是我要澄清一點就是說"},{"start":13152.29,"end":13154.29,"text":"我要澄清一點就是說因為我們山坡"},{"start":13154.29,"end":13156.29,"text":"我們那個原保原住民保地"},{"start":13156.29,"end":13158.29,"text":"權利及回復及管理利用條例"},{"start":13158.29,"end":13160.29,"text":"的部分其實我們在111年"},{"start":13160.29,"end":13162.29,"text":"已經報國行政院而且行政院"},{"start":13162.29,"end":13164.29,"text":"已經報到立法院"},{"start":13164.29,"end":13166.29,"text":"後來因為屆期不續審所以就沒有繼續審"},{"start":13166.29,"end":13168.29,"text":"那我們去年"},{"start":13168.29,"end":13170.29,"text":"去年其實已經"},{"start":13170.29,"end":13172.29,"text":"已經有曾經報院過一次不是完全"},{"start":13172.29,"end":13174.29,"text":"在111年就已經"},{"start":13174.29,"end":13176.29,"text":"行政院審議過"},{"start":13176.29,"end":13178.29,"text":"然後也報到立法院來"},{"start":13178.29,"end":13180.29,"text":"那如果當年報院的那個"},{"start":13180.29,"end":13182.29,"text":"版本在哪個委員會審議"},{"start":13182.29,"end":13184.29,"text":"內政委員會"},{"start":13184.29,"end":13186.29,"text":"對嘛主席"},{"start":13185.73,"end":13187.73,"text":"對對對"},{"start":13187.73,"end":13189.73,"text":"我們是在強調其實內政委員會"},{"start":13189.73,"end":13191.73,"text":"跟經濟委員會他的設置的"},{"start":13191.73,"end":13193.73,"text":"主管的"},{"start":13193.73,"end":13195.73,"text":"機關涵蓋範圍不同"},{"start":13195.73,"end":13197.73,"text":"今天我們今天來我們在談"},{"start":13197.73,"end":13199.73,"text":"經濟委員會找來這部會是以農業"},{"start":13199.73,"end":13201.73,"text":"被為主但是今天涉及到"},{"start":13201.73,"end":13203.73,"text":"原保地的部分不會只有原民會"},{"start":13204.62,"end":13206.62,"text":"在內政委員會還有其他的部會"},{"start":13206.62,"end":13208.62,"text":"內政部他也要參與"},{"start":13208.62,"end":13210.62,"text":"所以今天我們在"},{"start":13210.62,"end":13212.62,"text":"經濟委員會審一個未來"},{"start":13212.62,"end":13214.62,"text":"會在所謂的原保地的"},{"start":13214.62,"end":13216.62,"text":"相關的法案"},{"start":13216.62,"end":13218.62,"text":"如果說今天行政院那個版本"},{"start":13218.62,"end":13220.62,"text":"送出來了會變成怎樣"},{"start":13220.72,"end":13222.72,"text":"內政委員會審那個版本"},{"start":13222.72,"end":13224.72,"text":"今天我們的"},{"start":13223.97,"end":13225.97,"text":"三波地保育條例審這個版本"},{"start":13225.97,"end":13227.97,"text":"雖然這中間內容是相同的"},{"start":13227.97,"end":13229.97,"text":"但是他會是連動所以我是覺得"},{"start":13229.97,"end":13231.97,"text":"我可以體會政委員我們非常的"},{"start":13231.97,"end":13233.97,"text":"急迫但是要考慮到"},{"start":13233.97,"end":13235.97,"text":"剛剛部落那個事情我是稍微保留"},{"start":13235.97,"end":13237.97,"text":"因為部落這個事情到底"},{"start":13237.97,"end":13239.97,"text":"能不能作為一個土地的計售"},{"start":13239.97,"end":13241.97,"text":"登記的一個資格"},{"start":13241.97,"end":13243.97,"text":"這還是要回歸到內政委員會"},{"start":13243.97,"end":13245.97,"text":"的相關土地法令"},{"start":13245.97,"end":13247.97,"text":"所以我們想處理原保地"},{"start":13247.97,"end":13249.97,"text":"還是要處理三波地保育條例"},{"start":13249.97,"end":13251.97,"text":"這要分清楚所以我是覺得主席"},{"start":13251.97,"end":13253.97,"text":"如果覺得可以因為時間大家也"},{"start":13253.97,"end":13255.97,"text":"聽了政委員說明我們在"},{"start":13255.97,"end":13257.97,"text":"情理上都支持"},{"start":13257.97,"end":13259.97,"text":"但在法治上要完備不然我會擔心說"},{"start":13259.97,"end":13261.97,"text":"這個通過去了我們屏東的原住民朋友"},{"start":13261.97,"end":13263.97,"text":"他說那"},{"start":13263.97,"end":13265.97,"text":"我只有在三波地裡面才可以"},{"start":13265.97,"end":13267.97,"text":"這樣子做嗎"},{"start":13267.34,"end":13269.34,"text":"只有三波地裡面才可以適用這個規定嗎"},{"start":13269.34,"end":13271.34,"text":"那我是原保地那為什麼用原保地"},{"start":13271.34,"end":13273.34,"text":"全部含色範圍的東西來"},{"start":13273.34,"end":13275.34,"text":"保障我的權益所以我是"},{"start":13275.34,"end":13277.34,"text":"今天這個案子我們可以再討論"},{"start":13279.29,"end":13281.29,"text":"政委員"},{"start":13280.52,"end":13282.52,"text":"我說明一下"},{"start":13282.75,"end":13284.75,"text":"我們仔細看現行的條例"},{"start":13285.52,"end":13287.52,"text":"請問"},{"start":13286.97,"end":13288.97,"text":"政委員你先看現行"},{"start":13288.97,"end":13290.97,"text":"不是"},{"start":13291.1,"end":13293.1,"text":"不是現行的條例"},{"start":13293.1,"end":13295.1,"text":"你看第二項現行的條例"},{"start":13296.08,"end":13298.08,"text":"現行的條例第二項"},{"start":13298.53,"end":13300.53,"text":"原住民豈得原住民保留第12個錢"},{"start":13300.53,"end":13302.53,"text":"如有遺傳"},{"start":13302.53,"end":13304.53,"text":"以原住民為限"},{"start":13305.53,"end":13307.53,"text":"所以"},{"start":13307.1,"end":13309.1,"text":"所以不是在三波地的"},{"start":13310.56,"end":13312.56,"text":"原住民保留地也適用"},{"start":13313.68,"end":13315.68,"text":"這個是中華民國政府"},{"start":13316.77,"end":13318.77,"text":"我只能講說中華民國政府"},{"start":13318.77,"end":13320.77,"text":"沒有去重視只好依附在"},{"start":13320.77,"end":13322.77,"text":"這個三波地保留令條例"},{"start":13323.82,"end":13325.82,"text":"這是第一個第二個"},{"start":13326,"end":13328,"text":"為什麼行政院版本"},{"start":13329.27,"end":13331.27,"text":"在上個會期上個上一屆"},{"start":13332.29,"end":13334.29,"text":"上一屆有送來為什麼沒有辦法通過"},{"start":13335.97,"end":13337.97,"text":"第一個"},{"start":13337.37,"end":13339.37,"text":"他不符合原住民族基本法"},{"start":13340.28,"end":13342.28,"text":"第一個"},{"start":13341.59,"end":13343.59,"text":"第二個"},{"start":13343.97,"end":13347.97,"text":"他比現在的原住民保留地管理辦法"},{"start":13348.76,"end":13350.76,"text":"包括所授權的解釋"},{"start":13351.72,"end":13353.72,"text":"還不如"},{"start":13353.76,"end":13355.76,"text":"還不如"},{"start":13355.76,"end":13357.76,"text":"因此沒有通過"},{"start":13357.37,"end":13359.37,"text":"所以"},{"start":13360.46,"end":13362.46,"text":"第一個"},{"start":13361.72,"end":13363.72,"text":"就是建民登記"},{"start":13363.72,"end":13365.72,"text":"既然"},{"start":13364.58,"end":13366.58,"text":"最高行政法案已經判決了"},{"start":13366.58,"end":13368.58,"text":"我們就應該"},{"start":13368.59,"end":13370.59,"text":"要立法"},{"start":13370.35,"end":13372.35,"text":"第二個"},{"start":13371.83,"end":13373.83,"text":"就是我們"},{"start":13373.81,"end":13375.81,"text":"一直一直的受到很大的委屈"},{"start":13377.84,"end":13379.84,"text":"就是我們原住民保留地"},{"start":13380.93,"end":13382.93,"text":"要被徵收的時候"},{"start":13383.34,"end":13385.34,"text":"要被徵收的時候只能用"},{"start":13385.34,"end":13387.34,"text":"釋架旁邊又沒有釋架"},{"start":13388.79,"end":13390.79,"text":"沒有釋架的時候就"},{"start":13390.79,"end":13392.79,"text":"所以我們才會"},{"start":13392.69,"end":13394.69,"text":"公告限制加四成"},{"start":13395.39,"end":13397.39,"text":"如果有按照剛才"},{"start":13397.39,"end":13399.39,"text":"研議會所提的再增加那些文字"},{"start":13400.4,"end":13402.4,"text":"就可以"},{"start":13402.4,"end":13404.4,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":13404.08,"end":13406.08,"text":"是很重要很重要"},{"start":13406.08,"end":13408.08,"text":"因為這個部分"},{"start":13408.08,"end":13410.08,"text":"訂了之後"},{"start":13408.06,"end":13410.06,"text":"也不會只限"},{"start":13410.06,"end":13412.06,"text":"限於山坡地的原住民保留地"},{"start":13412.06,"end":13414.06,"text":"也包含"},{"start":13414.14,"end":13416.14,"text":"這個是不得不得"},{"start":13416.14,"end":13418.14,"text":"我知道就法制上"},{"start":13418.14,"end":13420.14,"text":"是這樣"},{"start":13420.79,"end":13422.79,"text":"因為已經實施幾十年了"},{"start":13422.79,"end":13424.79,"text":"我們現在"},{"start":13425.44,"end":13427.44,"text":"只能先修正這個不得不先修正這個"},{"start":13427.44,"end":13429.44,"text":"山坡地保留地條例"},{"start":13429.44,"end":13431.44,"text":"真的起了"},{"start":13431.59,"end":13433.59,"text":"我最後問一下"},{"start":13433.59,"end":13435.59,"text":"其實原則上我是支持"},{"start":13435.59,"end":13437.59,"text":"而且你這個寫的東西"},{"start":13437.59,"end":13439.59,"text":"我相信政天才委員看過"},{"start":13439.59,"end":13441.59,"text":"應該也沒什麼意見"},{"start":13441.59,"end":13443.59,"text":"因為我覺得你寫的"},{"start":13443.59,"end":13445.59,"text":"已經有傳達過我們法制的精神"},{"start":13445.59,"end":13447.59,"text":"那現在中嘉濱委員批評的只是說"},{"start":13447.59,"end":13449.59,"text":"這樣子的話"},{"start":13449.59,"end":13451.59,"text":"會不會影響"},{"start":13451.59,"end":13453.59,"text":"讓那些沒有不在山坡地"},{"start":13453.59,"end":13455.59,"text":"因為我看一下你的第二項"},{"start":13455.59,"end":13457.59,"text":"是已經有涵蓋了"},{"start":13458.15,"end":13460.15,"text":"來 處長我先講一下"},{"start":13460.15,"end":13462.15,"text":"我先回一下剛剛報告主席"},{"start":13462.15,"end":13464.15,"text":"報告政經委員"},{"start":13464.15,"end":13466.15,"text":"我們山坡地保育條例開宗明義第一章"},{"start":13466.15,"end":13468.15,"text":"總則第一條山坡地之保育"},{"start":13468.15,"end":13470.15,"text":"利用一本條例之規定"},{"start":13471.21,"end":13473.21,"text":"本條例未規定者"},{"start":13473.21,"end":13475.21,"text":"依其他法律之規定"},{"start":13475.21,"end":13477.21,"text":"那如果說原保地在山坡地保育條例當中"},{"start":13477.21,"end":13479.21,"text":"沒有規範到"},{"start":13479.21,"end":13481.21,"text":"那他當然未來有更好更新"},{"start":13481.21,"end":13483.21,"text":"更優的法律他當然會從其他法律之規定"},{"start":13483.21,"end":13485.21,"text":"而且第二條本條例所生主管機關"},{"start":13485.21,"end":13487.21,"text":"在中央市行政院內"},{"start":13487.21,"end":13489.21,"text":"農業部"},{"start":13489.75,"end":13491.75,"text":"第二項有關山坡地的地證"},{"start":13493.13,"end":13495.13,"text":"及營建業務"},{"start":13495.13,"end":13497.13,"text":"由內政部匯同"},{"start":13497.13,"end":13499.13,"text":"國有山坡地自委託管理"},{"start":13499.13,"end":13501.13,"text":"由財政部匯同"},{"start":13501.13,"end":13503.13,"text":"都是匯同農業部"},{"start":13503.13,"end":13505.13,"text":"這裡面其實在第一條第二條當中"},{"start":13505.13,"end":13507.13,"text":"都很以現在的情況來講"},{"start":13507.13,"end":13509.13,"text":"我們很多山坡"},{"start":13509.13,"end":13511.13,"text":"很多原保地都在"},{"start":13511.13,"end":13513.13,"text":"很多原保地在山坡地"},{"start":13513.13,"end":13515.13,"text":"可是在這裡面原住民機關"},{"start":13515.13,"end":13517.13,"text":"卻沒有在這個法條的第一條"},{"start":13517.13,"end":13519.13,"text":"跟第二條當中"},{"start":13519.13,"end":13521.13,"text":"如果嚴格來講我們希望將原民會"},{"start":13521.13,"end":13523.13,"text":"的意見納進來是要在第一條第二條當中"},{"start":13523.13,"end":13525.13,"text":"去表達"},{"start":13525.13,"end":13527.13,"text":"那至於剛剛政委員所說的"},{"start":13527.13,"end":13529.13,"text":"也就這裡寫的第九項"},{"start":13529.13,"end":13531.13,"text":"就是說公告限制加四成"},{"start":13531.13,"end":13533.13,"text":"那還重優"},{"start":13533.13,"end":13535.13,"text":"我想這個原則進程我都支持"},{"start":13535.13,"end":13537.13,"text":"如果今天我們只處理這一項"},{"start":13537.13,"end":13539.13,"text":"那也只限定在"},{"start":13539.13,"end":13541.13,"text":"山坡地當中的原住民保留地"},{"start":13541.13,"end":13543.13,"text":"在國家要使用的時候"},{"start":13543.13,"end":13545.13,"text":"他必須這樣子遵循這個完全支持"},{"start":13546.2,"end":13548.2,"text":"但是你說的建民登記這個部分"},{"start":13548.2,"end":13550.2,"text":"涉及到其他的非參坡地的原保地的部分"},{"start":13550.2,"end":13552.2,"text":"在法體例上"},{"start":13552.2,"end":13554.2,"text":"一個原我們的山坡地保育條例"},{"start":13554.2,"end":13556.2,"text":"去含設到一個由內政部主管的土地"},{"start":13559.6,"end":13561.6,"text":"去涉及到其他的主管機關的範圍"},{"start":13561.6,"end":13563.6,"text":"恐怕"},{"start":13563.6,"end":13565.6,"text":"今天"},{"start":13565.6,"end":13567.6,"text":"為什麼要經過行政院討論"},{"start":13567.6,"end":13569.6,"text":"我支持原民會趕快去爭取"},{"start":13569.6,"end":13571.6,"text":"把過去陳志永本院來的"},{"start":13571.6,"end":13573.6,"text":"再送進來"},{"start":13573.6,"end":13575.6,"text":"但是今天原民會也是一位處長來這裡"},{"start":13575.6,"end":13577.6,"text":"我不曉得這個回去今天處長"},{"start":13577.6,"end":13579.6,"text":"你講的話這些內容"},{"start":13579.6,"end":13581.6,"text":"回去曾志永主委"},{"start":13581.6,"end":13583.6,"text":"怎麼面對我們行政院的政委"},{"start":13583.6,"end":13585.6,"text":"現在哪一個政委在協調"},{"start":13585.6,"end":13587.6,"text":"我們你說的原住民保留地"},{"start":13587.6,"end":13589.6,"text":"陳時中"},{"start":13589.6,"end":13591.6,"text":"很好你想清楚"},{"start":13591.6,"end":13593.6,"text":"你想清楚你今天發言是代表原民會"},{"start":13593.6,"end":13595.6,"text":"那未來你們原民會主委"},{"start":13595.6,"end":13597.6,"text":"會在行政院被問到"},{"start":13597.6,"end":13599.6,"text":"那我們現在處理的原住民保留地的問題"},{"start":13599.6,"end":13601.6,"text":"那你現在在山坡地保育條例"},{"start":13601.6,"end":13603.6,"text":"處長說這直接移過來就好了"},{"start":13603.6,"end":13605.6,"text":"那未來我們在法條"},{"start":13605.6,"end":13607.6,"text":"的試用上那個還沒好就可以先走"},{"start":13607.6,"end":13611.6,"text":"那些位落在山坡地原住民保留地的人的權益"},{"start":13611.6,"end":13613.6,"text":"要如何去面對"},{"start":13613.6,"end":13615.6,"text":"我跟主席還有中委員"},{"start":13615.6,"end":13617.6,"text":"還有我們警衛委員報告"},{"start":13617.6,"end":13619.6,"text":"當然就是說就原民會的立場來看"},{"start":13619.6,"end":13621.6,"text":"我們會裡面當然就是說"},{"start":13621.6,"end":13623.6,"text":"優先考量就是說"},{"start":13623.6,"end":13625.6,"text":"我們要抱怨處理的那個原保地條例"},{"start":13625.6,"end":13627.6,"text":"那個部分因為光試用範圍"},{"start":13627.6,"end":13629.6,"text":"的部分就已經突破現在山坡地"},{"start":13629.6,"end":13631.6,"text":"保育利用條例的山坡地"},{"start":13631.6,"end":13633.6,"text":"範圍之內那個是一個"},{"start":13633.6,"end":13635.6,"text":"根本解決之道所以我們會"},{"start":13635.6,"end":13637.6,"text":"覺得如果說用我們的"},{"start":13637.6,"end":13639.6,"text":"專法原保條例的專法"},{"start":13639.6,"end":13641.6,"text":"去處理原保地他的一個試用範圍"},{"start":13641.6,"end":13643.6,"text":"的部分會比現在"},{"start":13643.6,"end":13645.6,"text":"現在只有光一條去處理是要妥自"},{"start":13645.6,"end":13647.6,"text":"所以這個是我們優先考"},{"start":13647.6,"end":13649.6,"text":"政策面優先考量的對象"},{"start":13649.6,"end":13651.6,"text":"處理的方式"},{"start":13651.6,"end":13653.6,"text":"那第二個就是說今天如果"},{"start":13653.6,"end":13655.6,"text":"剛剛那個政委講的今天如果說"},{"start":13655.6,"end":13657.6,"text":"那個原保原保地"},{"start":1365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4,"end":14370.54,"text":"讓張偉簽了之後"},{"start":14370.54,"end":14372.54,"text":"簽一下才拍"},{"start":14372.54,"end":14374.54,"text":"兩個不算數"},{"start":14375.3,"end":14377.3,"text":"你趕快簽一下我們再拍"},{"start":14377.3,"end":14379.3,"text":"這個以後放在我們原住民博物館裡面"},{"start":14379.3,"end":14381.3,"text":"正天才委員的那個"},{"start":14381.3,"end":14383.3,"text":"項目之下"},{"start":14383.99,"end":14385.99,"text":"太多了"},{"start":14385.99,"end":14387.99,"text":"你很多喔你的戰況標品喔"},{"start":14388.57,"end":14390.57,"text":"你這個爆戰功你這個"},{"start":14394.24,"end":14396.24,"text":"拍一下"},{"start":14396.24,"end":14398.24,"text":"不用"},{"start":14398.24,"end":14400.24,"text":"我就直接照顧委員正天才委員"},{"start":14405.91,"end":14407.91,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14408.41,"end":14410.41,"text":"好"},{"start":14411.35,"end":14413.35,"text":"好"},{"start":14413.42,"end":14415.42,"text":"請先讀協商結論"},{"start":14415.42,"end":14417.42,"text":"先讀商部地保衛力量條例"},{"start":14417.42,"end":14419.42,"text":"部分條件修正查案協商結論"},{"start":14419.42,"end":14421.42,"text":"第二條照委員謝一鳳等十七人"},{"start":14421.42,"end":14423.42,"text":"委員萬美齡等十七人"},{"start":14423.42,"end":14425.42,"text":"委員林大二等十八人"},{"start":14425.42,"end":14427.42,"text":"委員正天才等十七人提案通過"},{"start":14427.42,"end":14429.42,"text":"第十條修正通過"},{"start":14429.42,"end":14431.42,"text":"第十五條照委員徐富貴等十七人"},{"start":14431.42,"end":14433.42,"text":"委員羅志祥等十六人提案通過"},{"start":14433.42,"end":14435.42,"text":"第三十四條照委員洪玉祥等四人所提"},{"start":14435.42,"end":14437.42,"text":"再修"},{"start":14437.93,"end":14439.93,"text":"再修正動議通過"},{"start":14439.93,"end":14441.93,"text":"第三十五條照委員洪玉祥等四人所提"},{"start":14441.93,"end":14443.93,"text":"再修正動議通過"},{"start":14443.93,"end":14445.93,"text":"第三十七條照委員鄭天才等三人所提"},{"start":14445.93,"end":14447.93,"text":"再修正動議通過"},{"start":14447.93,"end":14449.93,"text":"宣傳筆"},{"start":14449.93,"end":14451.93,"text":"好請問各位同仁在剛剛宣讀協商結論通過"},{"start":14451.93,"end":14453.93,"text":"有無異議"},{"start":14453.11,"end":14455.11,"text":"沒有異議通過"},{"start":14455.46,"end":14458.46,"text":"討論事項三波地保一利用條一部份"},{"start":14458.46,"end":14460.46,"text":"條文相關修正法案等八案審查"},{"start":14460.46,"end":14462.46,"text":"玩具並按凝聚審查報告提包"},{"start":14462.46,"end":14464.46,"text":"院會討論"},{"start":14464.46,"end":14466.46,"text":"不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":14466.46,"end":14468.46,"text":"院會討論時有本席說明"},{"start":14468.46,"end":14470.46,"text":"審查通過之條文相關法制"},{"start":14470.46,"end":14472.46,"text":"用以授權主席及議事人員處理"},{"start":14472.46,"end":14474.46,"text":"本日所列議程處理"},{"start":14474.46,"end":14476.46,"text":"玩具現在上會"},{"start":14476.46,"end":14478.46,"text":"謝謝各位謝謝"},{"start":14483.98,"end":14485.98,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":14484.92,"end":14486.92,"text":"明年咯明年都有啦"},{"start":14489.75,"end":14491.75,"text":"謝謝"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":288.6,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":285.9,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"qhIkvbSUcj7FJEY+Xfa6PT0v2byddjK+O/WevIt6yzsQ9gi9rc7LPmkPBD5DbXg9Yi6HPpiLUz7CWS0+kfucvYZqMj211IU+4PvCvHGp9L0CBJa9SSoVvhMe7j0zTDu9TtUoPis11D6uUwQ+L4jKPe61hT3XTqQ947GZPgl3073NU7i9DZFHPiUvwz3TJkC+cmduvQ35Ob6hI7+9YH6XPHY5Sj4WUBw+UGKjPTA7ZLlSuSi9vEdjuxYTTr2IIoE+K3EQvt2VM77/tGa9hSnUPNQdHj4xyHc9MWSAvfBKCj59a+S9uKWhvVbR+r1nVCk8JiRGPcnwMT6fBY27o08YPiz9AT3C36I7+LvZPYYvxbsg44m94MXvPWfOGz4hSQE9FE0hPcZAmL0etoW+yN+hvRRO/r3R4ge+/7ohPr/r+7285Uw9A5LpvLJ00Lx1S8M9gfXQu3W5Q73DNBm+wP0qPjpk/bwiviq9NVBAPhardb6l7hQ+40bNPC5HmD1iHIs995gqPAVjxz1couw9Imh2vVr8lL2TxoQ90gfBPdtEXL6yt4E99CaEPSGtyD0OKh09NLFwPghcGjwaTs49aKTsO2d/LL1hjQy+3NLevXi8Y77mmNk7E5McvinABD4piS4+QQLDPSL72j3DTCC+/78BvOzu9zvIEME9bv3SPXilQD6y09G9ZOKUPN9dAj1zThy+j1GJvcXeGL158Rs9ZbN5vZfBrb7Tu1u+78pnuzXRKDy316y9uKFKvtEOOL5HASM+GsSBPkQ0LT5EECO8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