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{"start":2021.12,"end":2028.12,"text":"中共持續徵修國安相關法令,嚴重威脅國人附入的人身安全"},{"start":2028.86,"end":2035.86,"text":"中共於2024年開始發佈成讀22條,並設置成讀舉報信箱"},{"start":2035.86,"end":2039.86,"text":"對我附入港澳的國人造成極大的風險"},{"start":2039.86,"end":2041.86,"text":"政府也在"},{"start":2042.65,"end":2050.65,"text":"相關的時間,調升附入港澳的旅遊景色為橙色,建議國人避免非必要的旅行"},{"start":2050.65,"end":2056.65,"text":"在近年來,我們可以看到中國大陸持續強化總體的國家安全觀"},{"start":2056.65,"end":2062.65,"text":"膨脹國安的定義,持續頻繁修訂各種國安法令"},{"start":2062.65,"end":2070.65,"text":"包括數據安全法、個人訊息保護法、反間諜法、保守國家秘密法、網路安全法"},{"start":2070.65,"end":2077.65,"text":"還有發佈相關的一些行政作為,還有相關的規範辦法"},{"start":2077.65,"end":2085.65,"text":"明確的分裂國家、顛覆國家政權、恐怖活動及勾結外國勢力等罪行,鼓勵民眾舉報"},{"start":2086.81,"end":2095.81,"text":"此外,更規範國安機關可以依法查驗個人跟組織電子設備,要求協助解密及檢查"},{"start":2095.81,"end":2098.81,"text":"還有調取電子設備內容等等"},{"start":2098.81,"end":2105.81,"text":"此後,又在今年7月1日開始實施民族團結進步促進法"},{"start":2105.81,"end":2107.81,"text":"讓我們簡稱促進法"},{"start":2107.81,"end":2114.81,"text":"每個台灣人都會被賦予維護民族團結及促進國家統一的法律義務"},{"start":2115.33,"end":2117.33,"text":"促進法,創設"},{"start":2118.03,"end":2129.03,"text":"它相關的法律是在維護民族團結、增進民族認同的法律義務,並適用於所有的中國公民"},{"start":2129.03,"end":2134.03,"text":"任何台灣人非統計獨,處罰的範圍非常的廣泛"},{"start":2134.03,"end":2142.03,"text":"而且法律概念極度模糊,流比主觀的裁量的法律概念,不確定的法律概念太多"},{"start":2142.03,"end":2148.03,"text":"比如說,什麼叫破壞民族團結?製造民族分裂,不利於民族團結進步"},{"start":2148.61,"end":2159.61,"text":"並鼓勵各界檢舉來打壓議題,迫使我們民眾會產生寒蟬效應,只能夠無止盡的進行自我審查"},{"start":2159.61,"end":2164.61,"text":"促進法代表中共對台的法律戰,已經從反毒轉向促統"},{"start":2165.84,"end":2169.84,"text":"從過去的以傷逼政,已經轉為以法促統"},{"start":2169.84,"end":2176.84,"text":"促進法的實施,不僅對我們附陸國人的人身安全,加了一層威脅"},{"start":2176.84,"end":2183.84,"text":"也對每一個在世界各地生活的台灣人套上了一道法律的枷鎖"},{"start":2185.26,"end":2193.26,"text":"第二,國人附陸失聯,遭留置盤查,以及遭關押限制人身自由等目前的現況"},{"start":2194.32,"end":2197.32,"text":"跟大家報告本會最新的統計資料"},{"start":2197.32,"end":2214.32,"text":"113年1月到現在7月22日止,經通報國人附陸失聯,遭留置盤查,還有遭限制人身自由,總計有402人"},{"start":2214.32,"end":2219.32,"text":"進一步分析,110年,就是2024年有55件"},{"start":2219.32,"end":2227.32,"text":"到了去年就升高到221人,可以說成長了四倍"},{"start":2227.32,"end":2232.32,"text":"今年從1月到7月,也達到了126人"},{"start":2233.22,"end":2237.22,"text":"而且我們這些都是國人通報的案件顯示"},{"start":2237.22,"end":2242.22,"text":"從2024年就是113年,平均每月只有4個人"},{"start":2242.22,"end":2251.22,"text":"但是去年就高達每月有18個人,那一直到今年還是有每月16個人"},{"start":2251.22,"end":2259.22,"text":"可見這個增加的數字還是非常高,國人附陸的風險急劇的攀升"},{"start":2259.22,"end":2266.22,"text":"所以政府有義務向國人提出風險警示,並且加強各種的協助措施"},{"start":2266.9,"end":2273.9,"text":"我們從剛剛上述所說的,這些通報案件已經累計了402件"},{"start":2273.9,"end":2280.9,"text":"我們依照各種的類別,來分別說明它的各種的類型"},{"start":2280.9,"end":2288.9,"text":"其中包括通報失聯的有154人,遭留置盤查的有32人"},{"start":2288.9,"end":2293.9,"text":"遭陸方關押限制人身自由的有216人"},{"start":2293.9,"end":2299.9,"text":"其中這216人裡面,涉詐騙的案件有134人"},{"start":2299.9,"end":2307.9,"text":"還有其他刑事案件有58人,涉宗教案件有23人,涉國安案件有1人"},{"start":2307.9,"end":2313.9,"text":"我們觀察這些案件還有類型,在留置盤查的案件"},{"start":2313.9,"end":2320.9,"text":"需要檢查手機內容或隨身物品,如果有發生國人在觀光景點拍照"},{"start":2321.98,"end":2326.98,"text":"也出現了遭陸方公安人員留置盤查"},{"start":2326.98,"end":2334.98,"text":"或者是在下榻的旅館,遭到陸方人員進入房間訊問,並檢查隨身行李"},{"start":2335.11,"end":2341.11,"text":"還有查翻手機內容,金錢支付的狀況等情形"},{"start":2341.84,"end":2343.84,"text":"類似的案件,包括"},{"start":2344.76,"end":2351.76,"text":"選手專家,附陸專業交流,退休或是限職公務人員,以及一般國人"},{"start":2351.76,"end":2357.76,"text":"不過,在這個類型裡面,以限職或退休的公務人員身份居多"},{"start":2358.92,"end":2360.92,"text":"那麼,比例達到百分之"},{"start":2361.91,"end":2368.91,"text":"將近有一半,顯示我們公務人員因私人行程或附陸旅遊"},{"start":2368.91,"end":2372.91,"text":"容易遭到中共重點的盤查訊問"},{"start":2372.91,"end":2377.91,"text":"而在限職人身自由方面,因為涉及到詐騙或其他的刑事案件"},{"start":2377.91,"end":2384.91,"text":"以及宗教跟國安案件四類,觀察近期這些案件的趨勢"},{"start":2384.91,"end":2392.91,"text":"仍然有逐漸增加,值得我們關注,再來提醒我們國人附陸的風險"},{"start":2393.19,"end":2397.19,"text":"第三,我們政府的因應作為"},{"start":2397.19,"end":2405.19,"text":"本會在接獲家屬陳情之後,我們都會入案追蹤案情的進度"},{"start":2405.19,"end":2409.19,"text":"並且在尊重家屬及當事人的意願"},{"start":2409.19,"end":2415.19,"text":"我們會協同海基會適時進行家庭的訪視跟關懷"},{"start":2415.19,"end":2420.19,"text":"實際了解家屬的需求,以及當事人附陸的遭遇"},{"start":2420.19,"end":2424.19,"text":"我們用實際行動進行關懷,如果有特別的狀況"},{"start":2424.19,"end":2428.19,"text":"例如他的身份、職業地點、附陸、從事的活動"},{"start":2428.19,"end":2432.19,"text":"政府也會以去識別化的方式對外提醒"},{"start":2432.19,"end":2436.19,"text":"相關的案件寫處如下,在私聯的部分"},{"start":2436.19,"end":2441.19,"text":"私聯的部分,在最近的數字是有明顯攀升"},{"start":2441.19,"end":2445.19,"text":"那麼我們會了解私聯的原因,以及可能的目的之後"},{"start":2445.19,"end":2449.19,"text":"會透過兩案兩會的管道請路發協查"},{"start":2449.19,"end":2453.19,"text":"以確定當事人的行蹤"},{"start":2453.19,"end":2458.19,"text":"在遭到留置盤查的部分,我們會確認當事人的現況"},{"start":2459.04,"end":2466.04,"text":"了解事發的情形,在於當事人的訴求提供適當的協助"},{"start":2466.04,"end":2469.04,"text":"在遭到關押限制人身自由的部分"},{"start":2469.04,"end":2473.04,"text":"我們第一時間都會透過兩案共打"},{"start":2473.04,"end":2482.04,"text":"還有司法互助協議的相關機制,以及兩案兩會的管道向路方查詢"},{"start":2482.04,"end":2486.04,"text":"如果有對我國人限制人身自由的情勢"},{"start":2486.04,"end":2491.04,"text":"我們都會要求應儘速向我方進行通報,及提供家屬"},{"start":2491.56,"end":2493.56,"text":"探視便利,以及保護其合法權利"},{"start":2494.7,"end":2499.7,"text":"對於涉及國安及宗教的活動,遭路方關押這些特殊案件"},{"start":2499.7,"end":2507.7,"text":"我們也會透過各種多元的管道去識別化,公開揭露路方不合理的作為"},{"start":2507.7,"end":2511.7,"text":"讓國人留意相關的風險,注意自身的安全"},{"start":2513.51,"end":2521.51,"text":"為確保國人附入人身安全及相關權益的維護,本會也有下列的具體措施"},{"start":2521.51,"end":2525.51,"text":"第一個,是海基會的緊急服務專線"},{"start":2525.51,"end":2532.51,"text":"我們24小時全年無休,結合台灣、大陸、香港、澳門等相關的團體"},{"start":2532.51,"end":2539.51,"text":"之服務網絡及政府相關的資源,國人在路發生人身安全的緊急事件"},{"start":2540.17,"end":2546.17,"text":"我們可以說是24小時全年無休,提供各種的諮詢服務及協助"},{"start":2546.17,"end":2551.17,"text":"像海基會去年就接聽了5940通電話"},{"start":2551.17,"end":2555.17,"text":"我想羅秘書長待會會跟大家做更詳細的說明"},{"start":2555.17,"end":2559.17,"text":"此外,我們也提供附路"},{"start":2559.39,"end":2576.39,"text":"我們從103年開始,立法院決議,本會委託電信業者以電話簡訊方式發送政府24小時緊急服務專線電話"},{"start":2576.39,"end":2584.39,"text":"國人持有具國際漫遊功能的手機附路港澳時,首次開機就會收到這些資訊"},{"start":2584.39,"end":2589.39,"text":"第三,陸委會也有免費的法律諮詢服務"},{"start":2589.39,"end":2595.39,"text":"本會在台北、中區、南區服務處設有義務律師"},{"start":2595.39,"end":2601.39,"text":"提供兩岸民眾、刑事、行政訴訟有關人身安全法律的諮詢服務"},{"start":2602.59,"end":2608.59,"text":"另外,我們也會加強宣導提醒國人留意附路的相關風險"},{"start":2608.59,"end":2616.59,"text":"陸委會、海基會都會利用各種的例行記者會、官網、FBIG等多元管道"},{"start":2616.59,"end":2623.59,"text":"持續加強宣導各種的服務措施以及風險的預警"},{"start":2624.73,"end":2635.73,"text":"另外,國人附路港澳也呼籲國人應該在動態登錄系統填寫"},{"start":2635.73,"end":2640.73,"text":"以保護自己的人身安全遇到事情的時候"},{"start":2640.73,"end":2643.73,"text":"政府也可以及時提供相關的協助"},{"start":2643.73,"end":2652.73,"text":"當然,我們也會發布旅遊警示來呼籲國人都能夠了解目前的風險等級"},{"start":2652.73,"end":2656.73,"text":"現在還是維持陳設的警示"},{"start":2656.73,"end":2660.73,"text":"另外,我們也會透過所有的必要的手段"},{"start":2660.73,"end":2669.73,"text":"包括透過各旅行公協會、航空公司、醫療後送機構以及各地的台商協會"},{"start":2670.87,"end":2673.87,"text":"或者是當事人所在的公司等多元的管道"},{"start":2673.87,"end":2679.87,"text":"以公司協力方式向路方查詢了解個案的狀況"},{"start":2679.87,"end":2682.87,"text":"以立項路方了解國人在路的情形"},{"start":2682.87,"end":2687.87,"text":"提供國人必要的協助及時保護國人相關的權益"},{"start":2687.87,"end":2692.87,"text":"最後,要跟大家報告的是我們有六項結語"},{"start":2694.38,"end":2696.38,"text":"兩岸關係跌宕起伏"},{"start":2696.81,"end":2700.81,"text":"但是,國人人身安全是政府施政的重中之重"},{"start":2701.97,"end":2705.97,"text":"政府有責任提醒國人注意自身的安危"},{"start":2705.97,"end":2708.97,"text":"也會加強協助應處措施"},{"start":2710.46,"end":2712.46,"text":"本會所公布的數據"},{"start":2712.46,"end":2719.46,"text":"皆是當事人或親友向本會、警察機關陳情或報案的統計"},{"start":2719.52,"end":2721.52,"text":"每一件都有評有據"},{"start":2722.74,"end":2723.24,"text":"第三"},{"start":2723.82,"end":2725.82,"text":"相關案件的統計"},{"start":2725.82,"end":2730.82,"text":"不僅皆是國人目前復路所面對人身安全風險有升高的趨勢"},{"start":2730.82,"end":2734.82,"text":"也有促使中共落實相關機制"},{"start":2734.82,"end":2738.82,"text":"並重視保障台灣民眾復路的人身安全的作用"},{"start":2740.02,"end":2740.52,"text":"第三"},{"start":2741.29,"end":2742.29,"text":"我們要依據"},{"start":2742.99,"end":2743.99,"text":"兩岸共打協議"},{"start":2744.92,"end":2748.92,"text":"即使當事人因案遭到刑事拘捕"},{"start":2748.92,"end":2752.92,"text":"中共仍應向我方通報說明當事人所示的案由"},{"start":2752.92,"end":2754.92,"text":"其他失聯的狀況"},{"start":2754.92,"end":2759.92,"text":"再接到我們海基會或家屬報案協助巡查"},{"start":2759.92,"end":2760.92,"text":"那麼我們也希望"},{"start":2761.68,"end":2763.68,"text":"路方能夠依照相關的機制"},{"start":2763.68,"end":2765.68,"text":"向我方提供相關的"},{"start":2766.97,"end":2768.97,"text":"資訊"},{"start":2768.85,"end":2770.85,"text":"那麼過去"},{"start":2770.21,"end":2773.21,"text":"中共方面常常片面經歷政治因素"},{"start":2774.15,"end":2777.15,"text":"持續干擾兩岸共打協議的正常運動"},{"start":2777.96,"end":2778.96,"text":"的運作"},{"start":2778.96,"end":2780.96,"text":"拒絕提供完整的資訊通報"},{"start":2780.96,"end":2783.96,"text":"放任非官方的訊息到處流算"},{"start":2783.96,"end":2784.96,"text":"讓"},{"start":2785.64,"end":2788.64,"text":"台灣家屬無法辨識是不是遇到詐騙"},{"start":2788.64,"end":2791.64,"text":"這種做法顯然無視台灣民眾的權益"},{"start":2792.78,"end":2794.78,"text":"對於我們而言"},{"start":2794.78,"end":2795.78,"text":"要跟大家報告"},{"start":2795.78,"end":2796.78,"text":"每個出事的個案"},{"start":2796.78,"end":2798.78,"text":"對他的家庭來說"},{"start":2798.78,"end":2800.78,"text":"都不是萬分之幾"},{"start":2800.78,"end":2802.78,"text":"而是全部"},{"start":2802.78,"end":2804.78,"text":"即使有一個台灣人遇險"},{"start":2805.25,"end":2807.25,"text":"政府都有責任跟義務"},{"start":2807.25,"end":2810.25,"text":"來協助釐清當事人的安危與下落"},{"start":2811.57,"end":2814.57,"text":"最後本會所揭露的統計數字"},{"start":2814.57,"end":2816.57,"text":"多可能只是冰山一角"},{"start":2816.57,"end":2819.57,"text":"事實上沒有跟我們通報的"},{"start":2819.57,"end":2821.57,"text":"沒有報案的人可能更多"},{"start":2821.57,"end":2824.57,"text":"所以政府要再次重申"},{"start":2824.57,"end":2828.57,"text":"台灣的法律沒有限制民眾去中國大陸"},{"start":2828.57,"end":2831.57,"text":"但是政府有責任提醒國人"},{"start":2831.57,"end":2834.57,"text":"父母可能遇到的風險"},{"start":2835.5,"end":2836.5,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":2836.5,"end":2837.5,"text":"敬請指教"},{"start":2837.5,"end":2838.5,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":2843.97,"end":2846.97,"text":"我們接下來請內政部長劉世芳報告"},{"start":2846.97,"end":2848.97,"text":"兩項專題報告請一併報告"},{"start":2854.94,"end":2855.94,"text":"主席"},{"start":2855.94,"end":2858.94,"text":"各位委員女士先生大家早"},{"start":2858.94,"end":2860.94,"text":"今天就兩項專題報告"},{"start":2860.94,"end":2862.94,"text":"分別說明如下"},{"start":2862.94,"end":2864.94,"text":"有關第一案的部分"},{"start":2864.94,"end":2867.94,"text":"是國人附路失聯的情形及因應的作為"},{"start":2867.94,"end":2870.94,"text":"中國大陸在近十年陸續制定"},{"start":2870.94,"end":2872.94,"text":"施行國安法規"},{"start":2872.94,"end":2874.94,"text":"如104年的國家安全法"},{"start":2874.94,"end":2877.94,"text":"106年的國家情報法"},{"start":2877.94,"end":2879.94,"text":"112年的反間諜法"},{"start":2879.94,"end":2882.94,"text":"113年保守國家秘密法"},{"start":2882.94,"end":2885.94,"text":"以及114年的宗教教職人員"},{"start":2885.94,"end":2887.94,"text":"網路行為規範"},{"start":2887.94,"end":2890.94,"text":"還有115年民族團結促進"},{"start":2891.9,"end":2893.9,"text":"進步促進法等"},{"start":2893.9,"end":2897.9,"text":"致國人附中國大陸交流的風險持續提高"},{"start":2898.38,"end":2902.38,"text":"陸委會已經將中國大陸旅遊警示提升為成色"},{"start":2902.38,"end":2905.38,"text":"建議國人避免非必要旅行"},{"start":2905.38,"end":2908.38,"text":"國人附路失聯情形及本部"},{"start":2908.38,"end":2910.38,"text":"內政部的相關作為如下"},{"start":2910.38,"end":2914.38,"text":"第一個我們持續推動事前多元的宣導措施"},{"start":2914.38,"end":2918.38,"text":"第一個內政部在114年4月的時候"},{"start":2918.38,"end":2921.38,"text":"啟用附中國交流資訊的公開專區"},{"start":2921.38,"end":2925.38,"text":"並且持續預請民選公職人員"},{"start":2925.38,"end":2929.38,"text":"人民團體以及國內宗教團體出發前"},{"start":2929.38,"end":2931.38,"text":"可以主動進行資訊的登錄"},{"start":2931.38,"end":2934.38,"text":"以確保人員與交流的安全"},{"start":2934.38,"end":2937.38,"text":"截至115年7月24日止"},{"start":2937.38,"end":2942.38,"text":"即完成登錄的民選公職人員有1092人次"},{"start":2942.38,"end":2944.38,"text":"包含直轄市縣市長3人次"},{"start":2944.38,"end":2947.38,"text":"直轄市縣市議員67人次"},{"start":2947.38,"end":2950.38,"text":"鄉鎮市區長長官13人次"},{"start":2950.38,"end":2953.38,"text":"鄉鎮市區民意代表452人次"},{"start":2953.38,"end":2955.38,"text":"村里長有557人次"},{"start":2956.21,"end":2961.21,"text":"也有132家宗教團體5983人次"},{"start":2961.21,"end":2967.21,"text":"還有115個人民團體集合作社1305人次"},{"start":2967.21,"end":2972.21,"text":"第二本部業已透過正式的公文、網站、社群媒體"},{"start":2972.21,"end":2975.21,"text":"座談會以及講習會等等多元的管道"},{"start":2975.21,"end":2977.21,"text":"提醒國內宗教團體"},{"start":2978.27,"end":2981.27,"text":"到中國大陸並沒有真正的宗教自由"},{"start":2981.27,"end":2984.27,"text":"應該注意個人的資料保護及自身安全"},{"start":2984.27,"end":2988.27,"text":"依據財團法人海峽交流基金會的統計"},{"start":2988.27,"end":2992.27,"text":"108年迄今 即有23件25名國人"},{"start":2992.27,"end":2995.27,"text":"因為宗教原因在中國大陸被拘禁"},{"start":2995.27,"end":2999.27,"text":"其中又以一貫道為大宗 即有19案20人"},{"start":2999.27,"end":3002.27,"text":"另外自115年6月起"},{"start":3002.27,"end":3005.27,"text":"街頭陸委會在全國各縣市"},{"start":3005.27,"end":3009.27,"text":"辦理宗教團體負責人政策宣導座談會"},{"start":3009.27,"end":3014.27,"text":"說明赴中國大陸從事宗教交流可能面臨的風險"},{"start":3014.27,"end":3018.27,"text":"加強宣導兩岸宗教交流應該注意的事項"},{"start":3018.27,"end":3022.27,"text":"第三 內政部在人民團體的例行會晤"},{"start":3022.27,"end":3024.27,"text":"經營管理研習當中"},{"start":3024.27,"end":3028.27,"text":"每一年也都會邀請陸委會派員來說明"},{"start":3028.27,"end":3030.27,"text":"兩岸交流實務應該注意的事項"},{"start":3030.27,"end":3033.27,"text":"提醒各團體務必遵守"},{"start":3033.27,"end":3037.27,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例等相關規定"},{"start":3037.27,"end":3040.27,"text":"並且分享實務上易觸法的情境"},{"start":3040.27,"end":3044.27,"text":"宣導赴中國大陸資訊的公開登錄事宜"},{"start":3045.77,"end":3049.77,"text":"第二大項 強化公務員附陸風險的預警"},{"start":3049.77,"end":3053.77,"text":"經查內政部所屬公務員近期赴中國大陸"},{"start":3053.77,"end":3055.77,"text":"亦有遭留置盤查的情形"},{"start":3055.77,"end":3059.77,"text":"如限職及退休員警附陸旅遊期間"},{"start":3059.77,"end":3062.77,"text":"遭自稱國安人員盤查後"},{"start":3062.77,"end":3064.77,"text":"待往其他酒店隔離詢問"},{"start":3064.77,"end":3067.77,"text":"除要求交出手機查看證件"},{"start":3067.77,"end":3073.77,"text":"並且詢問有關我國關鍵基礎設施防護相關工作資料"},{"start":3073.77,"end":3075.77,"text":"以及家庭成員概況"},{"start":3075.77,"end":3079.77,"text":"留置約談約六小時造成同仁身心恐懼"},{"start":3079.77,"end":3082.77,"text":"此外移民署的同仁也曾於在附陸時"},{"start":3082.77,"end":3088.77,"text":"遭世類人員進行騷擾盤查留置或扣留行動裝置"},{"start":3088.77,"end":3092.77,"text":"顯示公務員附陸具有高度人身的安全風險"},{"start":3092.77,"end":3094.77,"text":"第二 為了維護同仁安全"},{"start":3094.77,"end":3095.77,"text":"內政部持續宣導"},{"start":3095.77,"end":3100.77,"text":"如需附陸應遵守相關法令及留意人身安全"},{"start":3100.77,"end":3105.77,"text":"並且到陸委會國人附陸港澳動態登錄系統登錄行程"},{"start":3105.77,"end":3107.77,"text":"如有異常事項"},{"start":3107.77,"end":3110.77,"text":"內政部要亦將配合通報協助"},{"start":3111.19,"end":3112.19,"text":"結語的部分"},{"start":3112.19,"end":3116.19,"text":"國人附陸從事交流洽公或探親等活動"},{"start":3116.19,"end":3119.19,"text":"不論身份為一般民眾或公務員"},{"start":3119.19,"end":3121.19,"text":"均可能面臨風險"},{"start":3121.19,"end":3125.19,"text":"內政部將持續強化相關的宣導作為"},{"start":3125.19,"end":3127.19,"text":"呼籲國人附陸前主動登陸"},{"start":3127.19,"end":3131.19,"text":"赴中國交流資訊公開專區等系統"},{"start":3131.19,"end":3135.19,"text":"附陸期間如果遇突發或者緊急事件時後"},{"start":3135.19,"end":3140.19,"text":"得以及時提供必要協助與服務守護國人安全"},{"start":3140.47,"end":3142.47,"text":"以上這是第一案的部分"},{"start":3142.47,"end":3144.47,"text":"有關第二案的部分也是一樣"},{"start":3144.47,"end":3146.47,"text":"各位委員女士先生大家好"},{"start":3146.47,"end":3153.47,"text":"近年來生成式的人工智慧及深度偽造技術快速發展"},{"start":3153.47,"end":3156.47,"text":"已經成為新型態的治安議題"},{"start":3156.47,"end":3158.47,"text":"當身為技術遭不法利用"},{"start":3158.47,"end":3160.47,"text":"足以冒充他人身份"},{"start":3160.47,"end":3162.47,"text":"散佈不實訊息"},{"start":3162.47,"end":3165.47,"text":"甚至影響公共秩序或社會判斷時"},{"start":3165.47,"end":3168.47,"text":"警察機關依法仍有查證之責"},{"start":3168.47,"end":3176.47,"text":"因此查處過程為同時兼顧維護言論自由與依法查明犯罪事實等兩項重要價值"},{"start":3176.47,"end":3181.47,"text":"內政部始終秉持依法行政以及行政中立原則來辦理"},{"start":3181.47,"end":3185.47,"text":"那有關本次案件因為基於我們已經報請北檢"},{"start":3185.47,"end":3189.47,"text":"所以口頭說明是不是請張署長來補充"},{"start":3194.57,"end":3195.57,"text":"多謝各位"},{"start":3196.29,"end":3197.29,"text":"大家好"},{"start":3197.29,"end":3199.29,"text":"那有關本次的案件"},{"start":3199.29,"end":3203.29,"text":"系警方於115年7月25日接獲檢舉"},{"start":3203.29,"end":3209.29,"text":"經檢視相關影片內容疑似涉及深度偽造總統聲音"},{"start":3209.29,"end":3215.29,"text":"原交由轄區警察機關協助釐清該帳號是否遭冒用"},{"start":3215.29,"end":3217.29,"text":"以及確認影片的來源"},{"start":3217.29,"end":3220.29,"text":"轄區的員警前往查訪時"},{"start":3220.29,"end":3222.29,"text":"因當事人不在現場"},{"start":3222.29,"end":3225.29,"text":"警方請向家屬留下聯絡方式"},{"start":3225.29,"end":3228.29,"text":"請當事人方便時與警方聯繫"},{"start":3228.29,"end":3230.29,"text":"並為入內搜索"},{"start":3230.29,"end":3232.29,"text":"以為限制人身自由"},{"start":3232.29,"end":3235.29,"text":"亦為強制要求到案"},{"start":3235.91,"end":3238.91,"text":"其後當事人主動與警方電話聯繫"},{"start":3238.91,"end":3243.91,"text":"警方確認帳號、影片均為當事人及團隊製作後"},{"start":3243.91,"end":3246.91,"text":"及完成初步的身份確認"},{"start":3247.84,"end":3250.84,"text":"因此為要求當事人立即到案製作筆錄"},{"start":3251.74,"end":3255.74,"text":"整體過程中警方為採取強制處分"},{"start":3255.74,"end":3258.74,"text":"為強制要求影片下架"},{"start":3258.74,"end":3261.74,"text":"也為限制當事人表達意見"},{"start":3261.74,"end":3265.74,"text":"本案警方是依據檢舉內容依法查證"},{"start":3265.74,"end":3269.74,"text":"依刑事訴訟法第230條、230要規定"},{"start":3269.74,"end":3272.74,"text":"司法警察知有犯罪嫌疑時"},{"start":3272.74,"end":3276.74,"text":"及負有調查及保全證據的法定職責"},{"start":3276.74,"end":3279.74,"text":"因此就本案的帳號、影片來源"},{"start":3279.74,"end":3283.74,"text":"此外,案件的進行初步查訪與法有據"},{"start":3283.74,"end":3289.74,"text":"在民主社會當中,保障言論自由與維護法治秩序同樣重要"},{"start":3291.06,"end":3298.06,"text":"我們將持續督導各警察機關在維護人民權利與打擊犯罪之間"},{"start":3298.06,"end":3303.06,"text":"兼顧程序爭議、行政中立以及科技偵查的專列"},{"start":3303.06,"end":3307.06,"text":"建立符合民主法治精神的執法標準"},{"start":3307.06,"end":3310.06,"text":"以上報告,敬請主席及各位委員指教"},{"start":3315.51,"end":3317.51,"text":"好,因為剛剛沒有確認意識錄"},{"start":3317.51,"end":3321.51,"text":"先確認一下,請問各位委員上次會意識錄有無錯誤"},{"start":3322.77,"end":3324.77,"text":"好,無錯誤,意識錄確定"},{"start":3325.35,"end":3326.35,"text":"現在進行巡達委員"},{"start":3328.19,"end":3332.19,"text":"好,抱歉,其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報"},{"start":3333.55,"end":3334.55,"text":"現在進行巡達委員"},{"start":3335.43,"end":3337.43,"text":"諮詢前,原例作幾點宣告"},{"start":3337.43,"end":3340.43,"text":"本會委員諮詢時間5分鐘,必要時得延長2分鐘"},{"start":3340.43,"end":3345.43,"text":"非本會委員諮詢時間5分鐘,上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":3345.43,"end":3347.43,"text":"現在進行巡達"},{"start":3347.43,"end":3352.43,"text":"抱歉,這個有關臨時提案部分,本次會議就不處理臨時提案,請問有無異議"},{"start":3353.36,"end":3357.36,"text":"現在進行巡達,請第一位登記的許中信委員發言諮詢"},{"start":3366.8,"end":3369.8,"text":"各位同仁,我們有請邱主委"},{"start":3375.91,"end":3377.91,"text":"主委好,邱委員早"},{"start":3378.9,"end":3379.9,"text":"中華文化"},{"start":3380.5,"end":3381.5,"text":"國防"},{"start":3382.52,"end":3383.52,"text":"都是台灣的防衛"},{"start":3385.38,"end":3386.38,"text":"這是李總統"},{"start":3387.2,"end":3388.2,"text":"國防部"},{"start":3388.2,"end":3389.2,"text":"跟陸委會"},{"start":3389.2,"end":3390.2,"text":"跟海基會"},{"start":3391.59,"end":3394.59,"text":"軟硬兼施保台的兩手策略"},{"start":3395.91,"end":3397.91,"text":"所以我今天要來跟主委報告了"},{"start":3398.71,"end":3400.71,"text":"這個兩手策略"},{"start":3400.97,"end":3402.97,"text":"是怎麼樣來保台"},{"start":3404.56,"end":3406.56,"text":"有關於強硬部分的"},{"start":3407.6,"end":3409.6,"text":"中國軍隊如果敢換台"},{"start":3410.57,"end":3412.57,"text":"入領空,擊落"},{"start":3413.52,"end":3415.52,"text":"入領海,擊沉"},{"start":3416.19,"end":3418.19,"text":"入領土,擊斃"},{"start":3419.28,"end":3421.28,"text":"絕對強硬以待"},{"start":3422.55,"end":3424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有序去統戰化的"},{"start":3948.04,"end":3950.04,"text":"這些交流"},{"start":3950.04,"end":3952.04,"text":"我們現在仍然有很多的"},{"start":3952.04,"end":3954.04,"text":"文化藝術表演"},{"start":3954.04,"end":3956.04,"text":"我們剛剛我們非常認同"},{"start":3956.63,"end":3958.63,"text":"過去傳統的古典的"},{"start":3959.92,"end":3961.92,"text":"中國大陸的文化"},{"start":3961.92,"end":3963.92,"text":"在台灣都保存下來"},{"start":3963.92,"end":3965.92,"text":"我們在像古漢語的這些"},{"start":3965.92,"end":3967.92,"text":"研究我們遠遠"},{"start":3967.92,"end":3969.92,"text":"超過中國大陸"},{"start":3969.92,"end":3971.92,"text":"這部分我們仍然在"},{"start":3971.92,"end":3973.92,"text":"去除統戰化的因素仍然在進行"},{"start":3973.92,"end":3975.92,"text":"兩岸正常健康有序的交流"},{"start":3975.92,"end":3977.92,"text":"在台灣學德文的時候"},{"start":3979.19,"end":3981.19,"text":"我的德文老師李福克"},{"start":3981.19,"end":3983.19,"text":"下課的時候"},{"start":3982.62,"end":3984.62,"text":"再看一本"},{"start":3985.08,"end":3987.08,"text":"我看不懂的漢文的經典"},{"start":3988.37,"end":3990.37,"text":"甚至最汆濫的"},{"start":3990.37,"end":3992.37,"text":"最完美的文化"},{"start":3992.37,"end":3994.37,"text":"是在金門閩南建築文化"},{"start":3994.37,"end":3996.37,"text":"超越所有中國福建"},{"start":3996.37,"end":3998.37,"text":"所以攻打台灣是摧毀"},{"start":3998.37,"end":4000.37,"text":"僅存的中華文化對不對"},{"start":4000.37,"end":4002.37,"text":"第二個您"},{"start":4002.37,"end":4004.37,"text":"你說對不對嘛"},{"start":4004.37,"end":4006.37,"text":"攻打台灣就是摧毀僅存的中華文化"},{"start":4006.37,"end":4008.37,"text":"古典的中華文化"},{"start":4008.37,"end":4010.37,"text":"在台灣都落地生根"},{"start":4010.37,"end":4012.37,"text":"而且我們都保存的很好"},{"start":4012.37,"end":4014.37,"text":"攻打台灣就是摧毀"},{"start":4014.37,"end":4016.37,"text":"古典的中華文化對不對"},{"start":4016.37,"end":4018.37,"text":"對最精美的"},{"start":4018.37,"end":4020.37,"text":"那另外你剛才提到"},{"start":4020.37,"end":4022.37,"text":"我們私聯部學學員這不是事實"},{"start":4022.37,"end":4024.37,"text":"我們公布就是要"},{"start":4024.37,"end":4026.37,"text":"其實我們希望那個數字能夠降低"},{"start":4026.37,"end":4028.37,"text":"因為沒辦法降低"},{"start":4028.37,"end":4030.37,"text":"每一件我們都很揪心"},{"start":4030.37,"end":4032.37,"text":"我們都跟各部會合作"},{"start":4032.37,"end":4034.37,"text":"如何去關懷這個報案的人"},{"start":4034.37,"end":4036.37,"text":"協助報案的人"},{"start":4036.37,"end":4038.37,"text":"我們希望把它降低"},{"start":4039.01,"end":4041.01,"text":"我們也要跟對岸說"},{"start":4041.01,"end":4043.01,"text":"你們要發揮既有的相關機制"},{"start":4043.01,"end":4045.01,"text":"來確保我們國人的安全"},{"start":4045.01,"end":4047.01,"text":"你不能說一直拉攏我們國人"},{"start":4047.01,"end":4049.01,"text":"赴大陸去交流"},{"start":4049.01,"end":4051.01,"text":"然後對他的人事安全完全不顧"},{"start":4051.01,"end":4053.01,"text":"贊同"},{"start":4053.01,"end":4055.01,"text":"第二個最後要跟您報告"},{"start":4055.01,"end":4057.01,"text":"就是有關我們"},{"start":4057.01,"end":4059.01,"text":"省部主委去中國大陸"},{"start":4059.01,"end":4061.01,"text":"去越南做參訪"},{"start":4061.01,"end":4063.01,"text":"因為越南很多智庫"},{"start":4063.01,"end":4065.01,"text":"對於陸委會"},{"start":4065.01,"end":4067.01,"text":"去那邊他們很重視"},{"start":4067.01,"end":4069.01,"text":"也希望"},{"start":4069.01,"end":4071.01,"text":"如果我們"},{"start":4071.01,"end":4073.01,"text":"到任何重要的國家"},{"start":4073.01,"end":4075.01,"text":"如果有中國大陸的智庫"},{"start":4075.01,"end":4077.01,"text":"會來交流"},{"start":4077.01,"end":4079.01,"text":"像美國就有三邊的"},{"start":4079.01,"end":4081.01,"text":"中國大陸哪一個是智庫"},{"start":4081.01,"end":4083.01,"text":"我想他有很多"},{"start":4083.01,"end":4085.01,"text":"智庫"},{"start":4085.01,"end":4087.01,"text":"因為時間上的關係"},{"start":4087.01,"end":4089.01,"text":"我可以去跟您報告"},{"start":4089.01,"end":4091.01,"text":"目前我們交往的中國大陸相關"},{"start":4091.01,"end":4093.01,"text":"有社台智庫有國際關係的智庫"},{"start":4093.01,"end":4095.01,"text":"有各種"},{"start":4095.01,"end":4097.01,"text":"比較廣"},{"start":4097.01,"end":4099.01,"text":"也是他們相關的機構"},{"start":4099.01,"end":4101.01,"text":"或是政府相關的這些"},{"start":4101.01,"end":4103.01,"text":"研究機構"},{"start":4103.01,"end":4105.01,"text":"那不是智庫"},{"start":4104.98,"end":4106.98,"text":"智庫的定義"},{"start":4106.58,"end":4108.58,"text":"我不想在這裡浪費時間"},{"start":4108.58,"end":4110.58,"text":"跟我們西方的獨立之國一樣"},{"start":4110.58,"end":4112.58,"text":"是"},{"start":4112.58,"end":4114.58,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝你"},{"start":4120.84,"end":4122.84,"text":"我們下一位請書僑會委員發言質詢"},{"start":4133.63,"end":4135.63,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4135.63,"end":4137.63,"text":"我們請內政部的部長還有陸委會的主委"},{"start":4145.7,"end":4147.7,"text":"我先請教一下邱主委好了"},{"start":4147.7,"end":4149.7,"text":"不好意思啊部長"},{"start":4149.7,"end":4151.7,"text":"邱主委好"},{"start":4151.7,"end":4153.7,"text":"邱主委的部分我就只請問"},{"start":4153.7,"end":4155.7,"text":"因為剛剛我很認真在聽這個"},{"start":4155.7,"end":4157.7,"text":"我們學委員的質詢"},{"start":4157.7,"end":4159.7,"text":"真的學問很好"},{"start":4159.7,"end":4161.7,"text":"但是"},{"start":4161.7,"end":4163.7,"text":"我覺得是這樣子我聽了以後"},{"start":4163.7,"end":4165.7,"text":"有個感想是我過去一直在"},{"start":4165.7,"end":4167.7,"text":"主張的其實就是我們的行政部門"},{"start":4167.7,"end":4169.7,"text":"政府機關其實對人民的"},{"start":4169.7,"end":4171.7,"text":"宣傳還有這個對人民"},{"start":4171.7,"end":4173.7,"text":"的這個訊息的傳達"},{"start":4173.7,"end":4175.7,"text":"要能夠簡潔"},{"start":4175.7,"end":4177.7,"text":"甚至有力"},{"start":4177.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ext":"尋常的傷害案因為傷害案其實"},{"start":4404.43,"end":4406.43,"text":"確實是常常發生啦"},{"start":4406.43,"end":4408.43,"text":"那我們這次我們特別要挑出來講"},{"start":4408.43,"end":4410.43,"text":"好謝謝委員那這個案件"},{"start":4410.43,"end":4412.43,"text":"這個料性嫌犯是現在的羈押"},{"start":4412.43,"end":4414.43,"text":"在偵查當中"},{"start":4414.43,"end":4416.43,"text":"那我們初步現在看起來這個不是"},{"start":4416.43,"end":4418.43,"text":"一個單純的傷害案件是一個"},{"start":4418.43,"end":4420.43,"text":"很標準的一個"},{"start":4420.43,"end":4422.43,"text":"跨境鎮壓的案件"},{"start":4422.43,"end":4424.43,"text":"怎麼說"},{"start":4424.43,"end":4426.43,"text":"這個是一個有一個有"},{"start":4426.43,"end":4428.43,"text":"組織性的一個一個"},{"start":4428.43,"end":4430.43,"text":"一個性質那我們"},{"start":4430.43,"end":4432.43,"text":"現在會在對向上"},{"start":4432.43,"end":4434.43,"text":"溯源或者是甚至在地的"},{"start":4434.43,"end":4436.43,"text":"有協力者在做努力的"},{"start":4436.43,"end":4438.43,"text":"偵查當中"},{"start":4438.56,"end":4440.56,"text":"署長這種被巡台的時候"},{"start":4440.56,"end":4442.56,"text":"其實就是講得最清楚的時候"},{"start":4442.56,"end":4444.56,"text":"這個據我們"},{"start":4444.56,"end":4446.56,"text":"我當然是沒有收到我沒有跟你們"},{"start":4446.56,"end":4448.56,"text":"調資料啦我就是從新聞上面"},{"start":4448.56,"end":4450.56,"text":"看的第一這個人的身份"},{"start":4450.56,"end":4452.56,"text":"他是從境外進來的"},{"start":4452.56,"end":4454.56,"text":"這個料性男子他說境外"},{"start":4454.56,"end":4456.56,"text":"進來據查具有香港"},{"start":4456.56,"end":4458.56,"text":"黑幫身份這是一個"},{"start":4458.56,"end":4460.56,"text":"跟平常不太一樣狀況打人的是"},{"start":4460.56,"end":4462.56,"text":"一個外面來的人而且打"},{"start":4462.56,"end":4464.56,"text":"人的時候是狀況是什麼樣子是先"},{"start":4464.56,"end":4466.56,"text":"他叫了你的名字看了你一眼"},{"start":4466.56,"end":4468.56,"text":"確定是你之後打下去"},{"start":4468.56,"end":4470.56,"text":"打完以後立刻就走不但是"},{"start":4470.56,"end":4472.56,"text":"離開案發現場而且回報"},{"start":4472.56,"end":4474.56,"text":"回報完以後立刻"},{"start":4474.56,"end":4476.56,"text":"立刻要急著出境"},{"start":4476.56,"end":4478.56,"text":"從外面進來"},{"start":4478.56,"end":4480.56,"text":"傷害了我的國人之後我們的國人"},{"start":4480.56,"end":4482.56,"text":"之後立刻又要出境"},{"start":4482.56,"end":4484.56,"text":"這三點事前"},{"start":4484.56,"end":4486.56,"text":"事發跟事發要確認"},{"start":4486.56,"end":4488.56,"text":"你是誰所以顯然是特定"},{"start":4488.56,"end":4490.56,"text":"案的特定人士"},{"start":4490.56,"end":4492.56,"text":"要打的是特定人士然後"},{"start":4492.56,"end":4494.56,"text":"事發是立刻出境事前"},{"start":4494.56,"end":4496.56,"text":"事發和事後這三個狀態"},{"start":4496.56,"end":4498.56,"text":"讓我們覺得這不是"},{"start":4498.56,"end":4500.56,"text":"一件尋常的案件是不是"},{"start":4500.56,"end":4502.56,"text":"所以跟一般任何的傷害案件"},{"start":4502.56,"end":4504.56,"text":"都不一樣所以警方要全力追查"},{"start":4504.56,"end":4506.56,"text":"那也很感謝警方在第一時間"},{"start":4506.56,"end":4508.56,"text":"在他出境前是已經"},{"start":4508.56,"end":4510.56,"text":"把他攔下來了好所以"},{"start":4510.56,"end":4512.56,"text":"我們才會有經過現在的調查"},{"start":4512.56,"end":4514.56,"text":"我們在媒體上看到這些跡象"},{"start":4514.56,"end":4516.56,"text":"那署長我現在就想問因為"},{"start":4516.56,"end":4518.56,"text":"我們現在這個事發的狀況是在"},{"start":4518.56,"end":4520.56,"text":"7月6號"},{"start":4520.56,"end":4522.56,"text":"這個案件在7月6號"},{"start":4522.56,"end":4524.56,"text":"7月1號其實中國發布了這個"},{"start":4524.56,"end":4526.56,"text":"民族團結促進法這樣的狀況"},{"start":4526.56,"end":4528.56,"text":"裡面其實就提到了"},{"start":4528.56,"end":4530.56,"text":"這個在"},{"start":4530.56,"end":4532.56,"text":"中國境外我們也要有"},{"start":4532.56,"end":4534.56,"text":"怎麼樣怎麼樣的一個長臂管轄"},{"start":4534.56,"end":4536.56,"text":"的狀況任何人都不能夠有"},{"start":4536.56,"end":4538.56,"text":"反對什麼"},{"start":4538.56,"end":4540.56,"text":"分裂民族"},{"start":4540.56,"end":4542.56,"text":"分裂國土這樣的狀態"},{"start":4542.56,"end":4544.56,"text":"等等所以你認為這個案件"},{"start":4544.56,"end":4546.56,"text":"跨境鎮壓想要達到的目的"},{"start":4546.56,"end":4548.56,"text":"以及"},{"start":4548.56,"end":4550.56,"text":"他未來發生的頻率你們"},{"start":4550.56,"end":4552.56,"text":"你們有想像嗎你們有判斷嗎"},{"start":4552.56,"end":4554.56,"text":"當然有那我想這個是"},{"start":4554.56,"end":4556.56,"text":"剛剛委員所提的這是一個有計畫"},{"start":4556.56,"end":4558.56,"text":"有組織的一個行為"},{"start":4558.56,"end":4560.56,"text":"所以我們看起來"},{"start":4560.56,"end":4562.56,"text":"是一個跨境鎮壓的一個模式"},{"start":4562.56,"end":4564.56,"text":"而且是以打帶跑的方式"},{"start":4564.56,"end":4566.56,"text":"來做這樣的一個行為"},{"start":4566.56,"end":4568.56,"text":"那未來我們"},{"start":4568.56,"end":4570.56,"text":"打帶跑"},{"start":4570.56,"end":4572.56,"text":"所以我們接下來"},{"start":4572.56,"end":4574.56,"text":"我們預防然後"},{"start":4574.56,"end":4576.56,"text":"我們未來就是對於我們這些的"},{"start":4576.56,"end":4578.56,"text":"保護的對象"},{"start":4579.15,"end":4581.15,"text":"就是這些對跨境鎮壓"},{"start":4581.15,"end":4583.15,"text":"保護的這些對象們會對加強"},{"start":4583.15,"end":4585.15,"text":"他的駐居手的"},{"start":4585.15,"end":4587.15,"text":"這些的安全維護"},{"start":4587.15,"end":4589.15,"text":"以及專責聯繫的"},{"start":4589.15,"end":4591.15,"text":"我們的警力的專責聯繫"},{"start":4591.15,"end":4593.15,"text":"那對於我們的"},{"start":4593.15,"end":4595.15,"text":"相關的單位包括"},{"start":4595.15,"end":4597.15,"text":"檢查或是移民單位"},{"start":4597.15,"end":4599.15,"text":"會共同來做合作那另外"},{"start":4599.15,"end":4601.15,"text":"我想就是說有"},{"start":4601.15,"end":4603.15,"text":"類似這些案件"},{"start":4603.15,"end":4605.15,"text":"我們不能以一般形式來做一個處置"},{"start":4605.15,"end":4607.15,"text":"那就是處理"},{"start":4607.15,"end":4609.15,"text":"這一案件要有這些敏感"},{"start":4609.15,"end":4611.15,"text":"我們的員警要有這些敏感度"},{"start":4611.15,"end":4613.15,"text":"也就是說這一些"},{"start":4613.15,"end":4615.15,"text":"被中共跨境鎮壓的"},{"start":4615.15,"end":4617.15,"text":"這一些的對象"},{"start":4617.55,"end":4619.55,"text":"那未來如果有這一些的相關的案件"},{"start":4619.55,"end":4621.55,"text":"不管什麼樣的情形"},{"start":4621.55,"end":4623.55,"text":"不能是以一般形式來做看待"},{"start":4623.55,"end":4625.55,"text":"要以這個"},{"start":4625.55,"end":4627.55,"text":"這個對於是不是"},{"start":4627.55,"end":4629.55,"text":"屬於長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓的情形"},{"start":4629.55,"end":4631.55,"text":"來做一個偵查"},{"start":4631.55,"end":4633.55,"text":"好謝謝署長我這個部分"},{"start":4633.55,"end":4635.55,"text":"我下一個問題我想請部長回答"},{"start":4635.55,"end":4637.55,"text":"因為部長直接表態這樣子"},{"start":4637.55,"end":4639.55,"text":"署長您先旁邊休息一下"},{"start":4639.55,"end":4641.55,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":4641.55,"end":4643.55,"text":"我想雖然剛剛我聽了署長的回答"},{"start":4643.55,"end":4645.55,"text":"但是我有幾點我並不是"},{"start":4645.55,"end":4647.55,"text":"那麼滿意同意"},{"start":4647.55,"end":4649.55,"text":"我不認為說我認為現在"},{"start":4649.55,"end":4651.55,"text":"跨境鎮壓中國對台灣"},{"start":4651.55,"end":4653.55,"text":"對台灣的民主人士"},{"start":4653.55,"end":4655.55,"text":"對全世界的民主人士"},{"start":4655.55,"end":4657.55,"text":"利用法律戰利用各式的手法"},{"start":4657.55,"end":4659.55,"text":"甚至想要進行長臂管轄"},{"start":4659.55,"end":4661.55,"text":"甚至是要跨境鎮壓"},{"start":4661.55,"end":4663.55,"text":"這樣的模式是越來越嚴重"},{"start":4663.55,"end":4665.55,"text":"那我們應該要處理尤其在台灣"},{"start":4665.55,"end":4667.55,"text":"但我不認為剛剛署長"},{"start":4667.55,"end":4669.55,"text":"答到說受保護對象"},{"start":4669.55,"end":4671.55,"text":"誰是受保護對象全體台灣國民"},{"start":4671.55,"end":4673.55,"text":"都是受保護對象"},{"start":4673.55,"end":4675.55,"text":"我認為全體台灣國民"},{"start":4675.55,"end":4677.55,"text":"都是應該受到我們民主法制的保護"},{"start":4677.55,"end":4679.55,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況下"},{"start":4679.55,"end":4681.55,"text":"在這樣的狀況下"},{"start":4681.55,"end":4683.55,"text":"我的國人應該要怎麼樣避免"},{"start":4683.55,"end":4685.55,"text":"未來有這樣的人士"},{"start":4685.55,"end":4687.55,"text":"從外面調外面的黑幫來"},{"start":4687.55,"end":4689.55,"text":"外面這個境外人士來"},{"start":4689.55,"end":4691.55,"text":"欺負傷害我們的國民"},{"start":4691.55,"end":4693.55,"text":"我覺得這件事情是重要的"},{"start":4693.55,"end":4695.55,"text":"好那你認為因為我們正"},{"start":4695.55,"end":4697.55,"text":"因為我們是民主法制的國家"},{"start":4697.55,"end":4699.55,"text":"我們有遷徙移動的自由"},{"start":4699.55,"end":4701.55,"text":"我們也沒有辦法在第一時間"},{"start":4701.55,"end":4703.55,"text":"現在的機制也還沒有辦法阻止"},{"start":4703.55,"end":4705.55,"text":"這些人直接進入"},{"start":4705.55,"end":4707.55,"text":"那麼我認為像現在此刻"},{"start":4707.55,"end":4709.55,"text":"這一次案件當中"},{"start":4709.55,"end":4711.55,"text":"方案者"},{"start":4711.16,"end":4713.16,"text":"沒有辦法離開我們的國門啊"},{"start":4713.32,"end":4715.32,"text":"要在我們的國家接受法律的制裁啊"},{"start":4715.32,"end":4717.32,"text":"要接受法律的調查"},{"start":4717.32,"end":4719.32,"text":"我覺得這非常好"},{"start":4718.67,"end":4720.67,"text":"你至少至少這段"},{"start":4720.67,"end":4722.67,"text":"這一點是未來一定要做到的事情啊"},{"start":4722.67,"end":4724.67,"text":"所以有方案者"},{"start":4724.67,"end":4726.67,"text":"沒有辦法就這樣打人然後就跑出去"},{"start":4726.67,"end":4728.67,"text":"我覺得這次警方做的最好的一段"},{"start":4728.67,"end":4730.67,"text":"就是快速反應在國門前就把人攔下來"},{"start":4730.67,"end":4732.67,"text":"這至少對我們來講是個交代"},{"start":4732.67,"end":4734.67,"text":"但我認為"},{"start":4734.67,"end":4736.67,"text":"現在這樣有了第一件"},{"start":4736.67,"end":4738.67,"text":"會不會有第二件第三件不知道"},{"start":4738.67,"end":4740.67,"text":"所以我們才看到您的報告裡面"},{"start":4740.67,"end":4742.67,"text":"有說是有跨境鎮壓跨機關協助平台"},{"start":4742.67,"end":4744.67,"text":"我們才想知道說那您的方式"},{"start":4744.67,"end":4746.67,"text":"處置是什麼"},{"start":4746.67,"end":4748.67,"text":"我對委員的關心我想委員我分兩個階段"},{"start":4748.67,"end":4750.67,"text":"就這樣的個案的部分"},{"start":4750.67,"end":4752.67,"text":"不管是跨境鎮壓或者是長臂管轄"},{"start":4752.67,"end":4754.67,"text":"在這之前"},{"start":4754.67,"end":4756.67,"text":"一定有類似的案件"},{"start":4756.67,"end":4758.67,"text":"譬如說我們很多在台灣"},{"start":4758.67,"end":4760.67,"text":"生活的這個香港人士"},{"start":4760.67,"end":4762.67,"text":"他們也被剝契等等這些"},{"start":4762.67,"end":4764.67,"text":"但是當時警員"},{"start":4764.67,"end":4766.67,"text":"大概都是用一般傷害案或者是"},{"start":4766.67,"end":4768.67,"text":"沒有去提告的時候"},{"start":4768.67,"end":4770.67,"text":"完全不知道後來我們慢慢發現到"},{"start":4770.67,"end":4772.67,"text":"說這個此事呢不可以如此"},{"start":4772.67,"end":4774.67,"text":"這樣子會造成所謂的"},{"start":4774.67,"end":4776.67,"text":"是那由這一次這個石板明夫先生"},{"start":4776.67,"end":4778.67,"text":"被打的案件呢我們有感"},{"start":4778.67,"end":4780.67,"text":"感受到第一個我們必須要"},{"start":4780.67,"end":4782.67,"text":"正視而且審慎來知道說"},{"start":4782.67,"end":4784.67,"text":"是不是有其他的境外的"},{"start":4784.67,"end":4786.67,"text":"勢力包括香港"},{"start":4786.67,"end":4788.67,"text":"或者是其他的黑勢力也好"},{"start":4788.67,"end":4790.67,"text":"或是其他也許有其他的統戰"},{"start":4790.67,"end":4792.67,"text":"勢力有進入這樣子的方式"},{"start":4792.67,"end":4794.67,"text":"來造成我們國人呢在人身"},{"start":4794.67,"end":4796.67,"text":"安全上面保障的一個"},{"start":4796.67,"end":4798.67,"text":"這個狀況那這個部分呢"},{"start":4798.67,"end":4800.67,"text":"第一個我們在警察局包括地方"},{"start":4800.67,"end":4802.67,"text":"警局或者包括航警甚至"},{"start":4802.67,"end":4804.67,"text":"移民單位或者國安單位呢"},{"start":4804.67,"end":4806.67,"text":"已經有慢慢形成這樣的機制"},{"start":4806.67,"end":4808.67,"text":"來處理如果牽涉到"},{"start":4808.67,"end":4810.67,"text":"跨境鎮壓或是長臂管轄"},{"start":4810.67,"end":4812.67,"text":"的時候第一個先如何保護"},{"start":4812.67,"end":4814.67,"text":"有可能要保護的對象第二個"},{"start":4814.67,"end":4816.67,"text":"怎麼樣透過比較好的這個機制呢"},{"start":4816.67,"end":4818.67,"text":"來處理這一塊第三個呢"},{"start":4818.67,"end":4820.67,"text":"我想我們並不排除啊爭取"},{"start":4820.67,"end":4822.67,"text":"其他有盟國家的協助讓我們"},{"start":4822.67,"end":4824.67,"text":"知道說跨境鎮壓的這些"},{"start":4824.67,"end":4826.67,"text":"人他們到底幕後"},{"start":4826.67,"end":4828.67,"text":"是屬於國際的黑幫勢力"},{"start":4828.67,"end":4830.67,"text":"還是有其他的政府的惡勢力來"},{"start":4830.67,"end":4832.67,"text":"入侵那這個部分呢我們按照"},{"start":4832.67,"end":4834.67,"text":"這個階段這一步一步在執行"},{"start":4834.67,"end":4836.67,"text":"剛剛署長所提到的"},{"start":4836.67,"end":4838.67,"text":"就是說為了預防有這個"},{"start":4838.67,"end":4840.67,"text":"在國內的人有受到這樣的狀況"},{"start":4840.67,"end":4842.67,"text":"我們還是呼籲如果你有任何"},{"start":4842.67,"end":4844.67,"text":"這樣的狀況的話呢請趕快"},{"start":4844.67,"end":4846.67,"text":"來報案由這一次呢"},{"start":4846.67,"end":4848.67,"text":"台中市警方移民署還有我們的"},{"start":4848.67,"end":4850.67,"text":"相關的國民單位國安單位"},{"start":4850.67,"end":4852.67,"text":"或航警在很快的時間內"},{"start":4852.67,"end":4854.67,"text":"阻止他馬上"},{"start":4854.67,"end":4856.67,"text":"機票就出國這部分的話"},{"start":4856.67,"end":4858.67,"text":"其實就是表示因為石板明夫先生"},{"start":4858.67,"end":4860.67,"text":"馬上就報案如果他過了一陣子"},{"start":4860.67,"end":4862.67,"text":"才報案的時候這個人可能已經"},{"start":4862.67,"end":4864.67,"text":"出去了那大家知道他出去"},{"start":4864.67,"end":4866.67,"text":"而且不是台灣的人的話要"},{"start":4866.67,"end":4868.67,"text":"把他抓回來接受我們法律制裁的"},{"start":4868.67,"end":4870.67,"text":"可能性就降低很多"},{"start":4870.67,"end":4872.67,"text":"好謝謝部長的說明也謝謝"},{"start":4872.67,"end":4874.67,"text":"署長因為我再次的感謝"},{"start":4874.67,"end":4876.67,"text":"這個當時警察有這樣子的"},{"start":4876.67,"end":4878.67,"text":"警察同仁有這樣的敏感度"},{"start":4878.67,"end":4880.67,"text":"和做這樣的執行那我們是希望"},{"start":4880.67,"end":4882.67,"text":"因為未來可能可能"},{"start":4882.67,"end":4884.67,"text":"我們當然不希望但如果有這樣"},{"start":4884.67,"end":4886.67,"text":"更多的案件的話我們希望能夠有"},{"start":4886.67,"end":4888.67,"text":"更精進的作為保護國人的安全"},{"start":4888.67,"end":4890.67,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝署長"},{"start":4895.1,"end":4897.1,"text":"好我們下一位請張宏路委員發言質詢"},{"start":4907.67,"end":4909.67,"text":"我先請警政署長"},{"start":4912.98,"end":4914.98,"text":"請"},{"start":4916.21,"end":4918.21,"text":"署長"},{"start":4918.62,"end":4920.62,"text":"我想請問一下"},{"start":4920.62,"end":4922.62,"text":"如果"},{"start":4922.45,"end":4924.45,"text":"如果有名人的聲音影像"},{"start":4924.45,"end":4926.45,"text":"被用到詐騙"},{"start":4926.45,"end":4928.45,"text":"你們要怎麼處理"},{"start":4930.01,"end":4932.01,"text":"那這個是一個"},{"start":4932.01,"end":4934.01,"text":"如果是一個詐騙的這個"},{"start":4934.01,"end":4936.01,"text":"我們當然是會去做追查"},{"start":4936.01,"end":4938.01,"text":"是會做"},{"start":4938.01,"end":4940.01,"text":"影片的這些下架"},{"start":4940.01,"end":4942.01,"text":"影片的下架"},{"start":4942.01,"end":4944.01,"text":"影片的下架然後"},{"start":4944.01,"end":4946.01,"text":"再去追查這個源頭"},{"start":4946.01,"end":4948.01,"text":"到底是用"},{"start":4948.01,"end":4950.01,"text":"是不是用身為的這個狀況"},{"start":4950.01,"end":4952.01,"text":"來製造這個影片"},{"start":4952.01,"end":4954.01,"text":"好那再來如果言論自由"},{"start":4955.59,"end":4957.59,"text":"我在街上有人罵你"},{"start":4957.59,"end":4959.59,"text":"我以為我故罵你"},{"start":4959.59,"end":4961.59,"text":"這樣他有沒有言論自由"},{"start":4961.52,"end":4963.52,"text":"那罵的話是不是"},{"start":4963.52,"end":4965.52,"text":"牽涉到有侮辱"},{"start":4965.52,"end":4967.52,"text":"毀謗的行為"},{"start":4967.52,"end":4969.52,"text":"如果有的話當時我提告"},{"start":4969.52,"end":4971.52,"text":"這不是言論自由"},{"start":4971.52,"end":4973.52,"text":"言論自由也是要有法治的"},{"start":4973.52,"end":4975.52,"text":"部長我就說有一個人在路上"},{"start":4975.52,"end":4977.52,"text":"看到你"},{"start":4977.52,"end":4979.52,"text":"就羞辱你罵得很難聽"},{"start":4979.52,"end":4981.52,"text":"他可以來告"},{"start":4981.52,"end":4983.52,"text":"被罵的人可以來報案"},{"start":4983.52,"end":4985.52,"text":"我說罵你"},{"start":4984.45,"end":4986.45,"text":"罵我"},{"start":4986.45,"end":4988.45,"text":"你認為他有言論自由嗎"},{"start":4989.11,"end":4991.11,"text":"我想如果被罵"},{"start":4991.11,"end":4993.11,"text":"如果是侮辱到我"},{"start":4993.11,"end":4995.11,"text":"牽涉到誹謗侮辱我當然有權力可以告"},{"start":4995.11,"end":4997.11,"text":"對嘛這就不算言論自由了"},{"start":4997.11,"end":4999.11,"text":"這不是言論自由"},{"start":4999.11,"end":5001.11,"text":"重點不是嘛"},{"start":5001.11,"end":5003.11,"text":"那所以如果用AI生成"},{"start":5003.11,"end":5007.11,"text":"貿用人的影像或聲音"},{"start":5007.11,"end":5009.11,"text":"這有算言論自由嗎"},{"start":5009.11,"end":5013.11,"text":"那如果說是用身為的方式"},{"start":5013.11,"end":5015.11,"text":"這個就是"},{"start":5015.11,"end":5017.11,"text":"可能有牽涉到"},{"start":5017.11,"end":5019.11,"text":"刑法的這個偽造聲明師的問題"},{"start":5019.11,"end":5021.11,"text":"沒有錯嘛"},{"start":5021.11,"end":5023.11,"text":"而且也有可能"},{"start":5023.11,"end":5025.11,"text":"變成商業犯罪或引誘人投資什麼"},{"start":5025.11,"end":5027.11,"text":"很多的情況都有吧"},{"start":5027.11,"end":5029.11,"text":"都有可能"},{"start":5029.11,"end":5031.11,"text":"所以在我們法律的規定裡面"},{"start":5031.11,"end":5033.11,"text":"你沒有經過他們同意沒有什麼的話"},{"start":5033.11,"end":5035.11,"text":"其實這就構成犯罪了吧"},{"start":5035.11,"end":5037.11,"text":"是的"},{"start":5037.11,"end":5039.11,"text":"我說的這樣子沒有經過當事人的同意"},{"start":5039.11,"end":5041.11,"text":"或什麼的這就構成犯罪了"},{"start":5041.11,"end":5043.11,"text":"因為這個如果說"},{"start":5043.11,"end":5045.11,"text":"身為偽造的這個"},{"start":5045.11,"end":5047.11,"text":"偽造聲明師是屬於公訴的範圍"},{"start":5047.11,"end":5049.11,"text":"對嘛"},{"start":5049.11,"end":5051.11,"text":"所以很多事情"},{"start":5051.11,"end":5053.11,"text":"今天這個專案報我覺得"},{"start":5053.11,"end":5055.11,"text":"署長你這樣就回答得很清楚"},{"start":5055.11,"end":5057.11,"text":"這還有什麼好說的呢"},{"start":5057.11,"end":5059.11,"text":"台灣是一個法治的社會"},{"start":5059.11,"end":5061.11,"text":"我們不能這樣如果以後這樣"},{"start":5061.11,"end":5063.11,"text":"台灣會動盪不安"},{"start":5063.58,"end":5065.58,"text":"我們也不用舉太多例子"},{"start":5065.58,"end":5067.58,"text":"很多名人"},{"start":5067.58,"end":5069.58,"text":"很多政商"},{"start":5069.58,"end":5071.58,"text":"很多重要的人如果都這樣的話"},{"start":5071.58,"end":5073.58,"text":"你覺得"},{"start":5073.58,"end":5075.58,"text":"台灣會有一個穩定的社會嗎"},{"start":5075.58,"end":5077.58,"text":"你們警察會不會"},{"start":5077.58,"end":5079.58,"text":"如果用身為的方式會造成"},{"start":5079.58,"end":5081.58,"text":"這些混淆"},{"start":5081.58,"end":5083.58,"text":"所以就是說"},{"start":5083.58,"end":5085.58,"text":"這個部分可能要未來也是"},{"start":5085.58,"end":5087.58,"text":"會去重視這個問題"},{"start":5087.58,"end":5089.58,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":5089.58,"end":5091.58,"text":"那我請這個"},{"start":5091.58,"end":5093.58,"text":"入委會主委"},{"start":5098.98,"end":5100.98,"text":"張偉也好"},{"start":5100.45,"end":5102.45,"text":"是"},{"start":5101.97,"end":5103.97,"text":"這個主委"},{"start":5103.72,"end":5105.72,"text":"這個啊"},{"start":5105.72,"end":5107.72,"text":"現在啊到底有多少人"},{"start":5107.72,"end":5109.72,"text":"在中國啊"},{"start":5109.72,"end":5111.72,"text":"被無故留置我看你們的報告"},{"start":5111.72,"end":5113.72,"text":"是四百多人"},{"start":5113.72,"end":5115.72,"text":"是這兩年加起來"},{"start":5115.72,"end":5117.72,"text":"四百"},{"start":5117.72,"end":5119.72,"text":"對對對你們可以啊"},{"start":5119.72,"end":5121.72,"text":"我因為問實際上到底有多少"},{"start":5121.9,"end":5123.9,"text":"大概啦"},{"start":5123.9,"end":5125.9,"text":"是我們遭入方關押"},{"start":5125.9,"end":5127.9,"text":"目前有兩百一十六人"},{"start":5128.51,"end":5130.51,"text":"在關押的"},{"start":5130.51,"end":5132.51,"text":"那當然失聯的我們還在"},{"start":5132.51,"end":5134.51,"text":"陸續在找"},{"start":5134.51,"end":5136.51,"text":"但是在入方關押的"},{"start":5136.51,"end":5138.51,"text":"被他限制人身自由的"},{"start":5138.51,"end":5140.51,"text":"有兩百一十六人"},{"start":5140.51,"end":5142.51,"text":"是在最近兩年嗎"},{"start":5142.51,"end":5144.51,"text":"還是從以前到現在"},{"start":5144.51,"end":5146.51,"text":"最近兩年"},{"start":5146.51,"end":5148.51,"text":"就兩百一十六人"},{"start":5150.04,"end":5152.04,"text":"如果沒有講很多人"},{"start":5152.04,"end":5154.04,"text":"台灣人還不知道"},{"start":5154.04,"end":5156.04,"text":"有這麼多人無故被關押吧"},{"start":5156.04,"end":5158.04,"text":"是"},{"start":5158.04,"end":5160.04,"text":"而且是這幾年"},{"start":5160.04,"end":5162.04,"text":"中國一直通過一些不合理的法令"},{"start":5162.04,"end":5164.04,"text":"然後長臂管轄什麼"},{"start":5164.04,"end":5166.04,"text":"等等的"},{"start":5166.04,"end":5168.04,"text":"所以造成很多的台灣人"},{"start":5168.04,"end":5170.04,"text":"無故去那邊"},{"start":5170.04,"end":5172.04,"text":"被抓起來了吧"},{"start":5172.04,"end":5174.04,"text":"是當然委員所說的那個推論"},{"start":5174.04,"end":5176.04,"text":"都是合理的"},{"start":5176.04,"end":5178.04,"text":"這是推論嗎"},{"start":5178.04,"end":5180.04,"text":"針對每個個案"},{"start":5180.04,"end":5182.04,"text":"當然那個關聯性"},{"start":5182.04,"end":5184.04,"text":"但是整體趨勢那麼多"},{"start":5184.04,"end":5186.04,"text":"我們剛才也跟大家報告"},{"start":5186.04,"end":5188.04,"text":"每個月仍然有十六到十八件的"},{"start":5188.04,"end":5190.04,"text":"每個月會增加"},{"start":5190.04,"end":5192.04,"text":"這確實是蠻驚人的"},{"start":5192.04,"end":5194.04,"text":"那這裡面當然"},{"start":5194.04,"end":5196.04,"text":"到入方關押的比例是最多"},{"start":5196.04,"end":5198.04,"text":"那當然我們對於每個包安的人"},{"start":5198.04,"end":5200.04,"text":"比如說他家屬來包安"},{"start":5200.04,"end":5202.04,"text":"他親友來包安"},{"start":5202.04,"end":5204.04,"text":"我們都很想去協助他"},{"start":5204.04,"end":5206.04,"text":"再怎麼樣的因素"},{"start":5206.04,"end":5208.04,"text":"或是在中國大陸犯了什麼法"},{"start":5208.04,"end":5210.04,"text":"那這個部分如果說"},{"start":5210.04,"end":5212.04,"text":"入方沒有相應的一個機制"},{"start":5212.04,"end":5214.04,"text":"跟我們通報的話"},{"start":5214.04,"end":5216.04,"text":"家屬都會不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":5216.04,"end":5218.04,"text":"所以我們關懷協助"},{"start":5218.04,"end":5220.04,"text":"給他很多的法律諮詢"},{"start":5220.04,"end":5222.04,"text":"讓他有一個方向"},{"start":5222.04,"end":5224.04,"text":"但最重要的我們還是透過"},{"start":5224.04,"end":5226.04,"text":"兩案相關的機制"},{"start":5226.04,"end":5228.04,"text":"能夠把人確定下來"},{"start":5228.04,"end":5230.04,"text":"確定的下落最重要"},{"start":5230.04,"end":5232.04,"text":"主委這個是後續的處理"},{"start":5232.04,"end":5234.04,"text":"那應該預防"},{"start":5234.04,"end":5236.04,"text":"這應該預防於先"},{"start":5238.91,"end":5240.91,"text":"中國現在"},{"start":5240.91,"end":5242.91,"text":"用很多的方式鼓勵台灣的人去"},{"start":5242.91,"end":5244.91,"text":"或什麼的"},{"start":5244.91,"end":5246.91,"text":"你知道嗎有很多是免費的旅行團"},{"start":5246.91,"end":5248.91,"text":"你們知道嗎"},{"start":5248.91,"end":5250.91,"text":"是"},{"start":5250.91,"end":5252.91,"text":"我們很清楚"},{"start":5252.91,"end":5254.91,"text":"我們剛剛也報告就是說"},{"start":5254.91,"end":5256.91,"text":"中國大陸想盡辦法"},{"start":5256.91,"end":5258.91,"text":"一直招攬我們的國人過去"},{"start":5258.91,"end":5260.91,"text":"不管是低價旅遊"},{"start":5260.91,"end":5262.91,"text":"免費招待落地招待"},{"start":5262.91,"end":5264.91,"text":"我們很多年輕朋友"},{"start":5264.91,"end":5266.91,"text":"很多的國人"},{"start":5266.91,"end":5268.91,"text":"我們的村民"},{"start":5268.91,"end":5270.91,"text":"里民到中國大陸去旅遊"},{"start":5270.91,"end":5272.91,"text":"但是你卻沒有"},{"start":5272.91,"end":5274.91,"text":"給他人身安全的"},{"start":5274.91,"end":5276.91,"text":"維護跟保護"},{"start":5276.91,"end":5278.91,"text":"那麼多的個案"},{"start":5278.91,"end":5280.91,"text":"層出不窮"},{"start":5280.91,"end":5282.91,"text":"包括今天報告"},{"start":5282.91,"end":5284.91,"text":"婦婦失聯的案子仍然是那麼增加"},{"start":5284.91,"end":5286.91,"text":"顯示那邊確實是有風險"},{"start":5286.91,"end":5288.91,"text":"所以我們剛剛委員"},{"start":5288.91,"end":5290.91,"text":"指導的是"},{"start":5290.91,"end":5292.91,"text":"我們應該防範以未來"},{"start":5292.91,"end":5294.91,"text":"應該要多做宣導"},{"start":5294.91,"end":5296.91,"text":"現在每個月"},{"start":5296.91,"end":5298.91,"text":"過去是每個月公布這些數字"},{"start":5298.91,"end":5300.91,"text":"我們為了提醒國人的注意"},{"start":5300.91,"end":5302.91,"text":"因為這個數字"},{"start":5302.91,"end":5304.91,"text":"可以發五項"},{"start":5304.91,"end":5306.91,"text":"所以我們是每一週都來宣導"},{"start":5306.91,"end":5308.91,"text":"主委我覺得公布數字"},{"start":5308.91,"end":5310.91,"text":"不痛不癢"},{"start":5310.91,"end":5312.91,"text":"也沒什麼"},{"start":5312.91,"end":5314.91,"text":"大家沒有感受"},{"start":5314.91,"end":5316.91,"text":"比如說"},{"start":5316.97,"end":5318.97,"text":"我們那時候就要求"},{"start":5318.97,"end":5320.97,"text":"警政署每天在那邊反詐騙"},{"start":5322.41,"end":5324.41,"text":"誰不知道詐騙"},{"start":5324.41,"end":5326.41,"text":"但最新的詐騙形態是什麼"},{"start":5326.41,"end":5328.41,"text":"大家哪知道"},{"start":5328.41,"end":5330.41,"text":"後來要求他們要拍最新的"},{"start":5330.41,"end":5332.41,"text":"這種詐騙方式的宣導影片"},{"start":5332.41,"end":5334.41,"text":"他們現在就做了"},{"start":5334.41,"end":5336.41,"text":"大家一看就知道我現在最新的是什麼"},{"start":5336.29,"end":5338.29,"text":"你們為什麼不也這樣選"},{"start":5338.29,"end":5340.29,"text":"我們不用成本"},{"start":5340.29,"end":5342.29,"text":"放在網路上就好了"},{"start":5342.29,"end":5344.29,"text":"大家就看得懂"},{"start":5344.29,"end":5346.29,"text":"這樣才知道我是屬於哪一種"},{"start":5346.29,"end":5348.29,"text":"不然他也不知道"},{"start":5348.29,"end":5350.29,"text":"我相信一般人不知道"},{"start":5350.29,"end":5352.29,"text":"而且我要跟你講"},{"start":5352.29,"end":5354.29,"text":"他們現在"},{"start":5354.29,"end":5356.29,"text":"要我們年輕人"},{"start":5356.29,"end":5358.29,"text":"要去中國"},{"start":5358.29,"end":5360.29,"text":"你知道嗎"},{"start":5360.29,"end":5362.29,"text":"我們台灣的年輕人很多人在網路上可能講了一句話"},{"start":5362.29,"end":5364.29,"text":"我跟你講"},{"start":5364.34,"end":5366.34,"text":"過去那邊有沒有可能被加起來"},{"start":5367.09,"end":5369.09,"text":"有沒有可能"},{"start":5369.09,"end":5371.09,"text":"我們的年輕人"},{"start":5371.09,"end":5373.09,"text":"我們台灣是一面自由的國家"},{"start":5373.09,"end":5375.09,"text":"有可能在網路上講一個"},{"start":5375.09,"end":5377.09,"text":"他的法律那麼多"},{"start":5377.09,"end":5379.09,"text":"隨便都可能處罰"},{"start":5379.09,"end":5381.09,"text":"他要鼓勵我們台灣的年輕人去那邊"},{"start":5381.09,"end":5383.09,"text":"要積極統戰"},{"start":5383.09,"end":5385.09,"text":"我們的年輕人可能"},{"start":5384.54,"end":5386.54,"text":"很多人還不知道喔"},{"start":5387.97,"end":5389.97,"text":"年輕人如果過去就被抓起來了"},{"start":5391.27,"end":5393.27,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":5393.27,"end":5395.27,"text":"要類似這一種的短片"},{"start":5395.27,"end":5397.27,"text":"讓大家知道你去就有很高的風險"},{"start":5397.27,"end":5399.27,"text":"謝謝委員知道"},{"start":5399.27,"end":5401.27,"text":"我們也在"},{"start":5401.27,"end":5403.27,"text":"在Ruiz這方面宣導工作"},{"start":5403.27,"end":5405.27,"text":"第一個要去識別化"},{"start":5405.27,"end":5407.27,"text":"但是就委員所說的那個"},{"start":5407.27,"end":5409.27,"text":"樣態我們去識別化"},{"start":5409.27,"end":5411.27,"text":"把那個樣態呈現出來"},{"start":5411.27,"end":5413.27,"text":"用短影片或是我們"},{"start":5413.27,"end":5415.27,"text":"例行記者會不斷的對外"},{"start":5415.27,"end":5417.27,"text":"去宣導這是我們目前"},{"start":5417.27,"end":5419.27,"text":"努力的工作"},{"start":5419.27,"end":5421.27,"text":"而且這短影片不要發什麼"},{"start":5421.27,"end":5423.27,"text":"花多少錢"},{"start":5423.27,"end":5425.27,"text":"而且就放在網站"},{"start":5425.27,"end":5427.27,"text":"讓大家知道你是屬於哪些樣態的"},{"start":5427.27,"end":5429.27,"text":"就不能去啊"},{"start":54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"start":5655.08,"end":5657.08,"text":"那15年上半年"},{"start":5657.08,"end":5659.08,"text":"1到6月大概就280萬了"},{"start":5659.08,"end":5661.08,"text":"那附陸的人次大概提升了"},{"start":5661.08,"end":5663.08,"text":"25%左右"},{"start":5663.08,"end":5665.08,"text":"那在這個平均每月"},{"start":5665.08,"end":5667.08,"text":"人數不變的情況下"},{"start":5667.08,"end":5669.08,"text":"然後但是母數"},{"start":5669.08,"end":5671.08,"text":"也就是附陸人數增加的情況下"},{"start":5671.08,"end":5673.08,"text":"那這樣子通報人數的比例"},{"start":5673.08,"end":5675.08,"text":"今年是不是比去年還低"},{"start":5675.08,"end":5677.08,"text":"數學題喔"},{"start":5677.78,"end":5679.78,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5679.78,"end":5681.78,"text":"如果是數學題的話"},{"start":5681.78,"end":5683.78,"text":"我們在疫情之前"},{"start":5683.78,"end":5685.78,"text":"我們去中國大陸的人"},{"start":5685.78,"end":5687.78,"text":"高達"},{"start":5687.78,"end":5689.78,"text":"630萬"},{"start":5689.78,"end":5691.78,"text":"那時候我們還沒有通報這個系統"},{"start":5691.78,"end":5693.78,"text":"我們也是歡迎大家通報"},{"start":5693.78,"end":5695.78,"text":"我們這兩年"},{"start":5695.78,"end":5697.78,"text":"比較補成安全的案例不多"},{"start":5697.78,"end":5699.78,"text":"疫情前到"},{"start":5699.78,"end":5701.78,"text":"2013年到2014年"},{"start":5701.78,"end":5703.78,"text":"是增加的"},{"start":5703.78,"end":5705.78,"text":"沒關係我就先照你的論述講"},{"start":5705.78,"end":5707.78,"text":"那是2014年到2015年"},{"start":5707.78,"end":5709.78,"text":"就是去年到今年"},{"start":5709.78,"end":5711.78,"text":"附陸通報失聯的比例"},{"start":5711.78,"end":5713.78,"text":"是降低的沒錯吧"},{"start":5715.27,"end":5717.27,"text":"呃"},{"start":5717.52,"end":5719.52,"text":"是吧"},{"start":5719.52,"end":5721.52,"text":"因為今年還沒有完喔"},{"start":5721.52,"end":5723.52,"text":"到目前為止嘛"},{"start":5723.52,"end":5725.52,"text":"平均當然是16"},{"start":5725.52,"end":5727.52,"text":"人數差不多嘛"},{"start":5727.52,"end":5729.52,"text":"去年是18就差不多"},{"start":5729.52,"end":5731.52,"text":"一個客觀的資訊"},{"start":5731.52,"end":5733.52,"text":"為什麼我剛剛會這樣子指控"},{"start":5733.52,"end":5735.52,"text":"你或許不認同"},{"start":5735.52,"end":5737.52,"text":"但是為什麼會這樣子指控"},{"start":5737.52,"end":5739.52,"text":"你們單純當作一個民進黨"},{"start":5739.52,"end":5741.52,"text":"一個政治的一個"},{"start":5741.52,"end":5743.52,"text":"抗中保台的傳聲筒而已"},{"start":5743.52,"end":5745.52,"text":"這是我的指控"},{"start":5745.52,"end":5747.52,"text":"就是一些客觀的資訊"},{"start":5747.52,"end":5749.52,"text":"你們沒有充分的一個揭露"},{"start":5749.52,"end":5751.52,"text":"比例其實是下降的"},{"start":5751.52,"end":5753.52,"text":"那當然不是說比例下降"},{"start":5753.52,"end":5755.52,"text":"就沒有風險"},{"start":5755.52,"end":5757.52,"text":"剛剛主委講任何一個人"},{"start":5757.52,"end":5759.52,"text":"有發生的事情都是一個家庭的"},{"start":5759.52,"end":5761.52,"text":"重大的負擔或者破碎"},{"start":5761.52,"end":5763.52,"text":"那我來看一下"},{"start":5763.52,"end":5765.52,"text":"我們的統計案件的"},{"start":5763.25,"end":5765.25,"text":"這個案件的類型統計"},{"start":5765.25,"end":5767.25,"text":"招限制人身自由"},{"start":5767.25,"end":5769.25,"text":"大概就是超過一半嘛"},{"start":5769.25,"end":5771.25,"text":"那其中大部分都是知道原因的"},{"start":5771.25,"end":5773.25,"text":"涉嫌詐騙案件"},{"start":5773.25,"end":5775.25,"text":"134其他刑事案件"},{"start":5775.25,"end":5777.25,"text":"58人這些都是"},{"start":5777.25,"end":5779.25,"text":"很明確的去觸犯到當地的法律"},{"start":5779.25,"end":5781.25,"text":"可能跟政治無關"},{"start":5781.25,"end":5783.25,"text":"那所以說我們如果會把這個統計"},{"start":5783.25,"end":5785.25,"text":"進來你是認為到一個國家"},{"start":5785.25,"end":5787.25,"text":"或者是地區去犯罪"},{"start":5787.25,"end":5789.25,"text":"比如說詐騙或者是涉及"},{"start":5789.25,"end":5791.25,"text":"刑事案件被當地的"},{"start":5791.25,"end":5793.25,"text":"司法部門關押"},{"start":5793.25,"end":5795.25,"text":"就叫做風險嗎"},{"start":5794.67,"end":5796.67,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5796.67,"end":5798.67,"text":"這些在中國大陸"},{"start":5798.67,"end":5800.67,"text":"像今天的主題叫私聯"},{"start":5800.67,"end":5802.67,"text":"像第一類的通報私聯"},{"start":5802.67,"end":5804.67,"text":"這個你還不至於"},{"start":5804.67,"end":5806.67,"text":"我們等一下再討論"},{"start":5806.67,"end":5808.67,"text":"這個私聯的數字在這幾個月明顯升高"},{"start":5808.67,"end":5810.67,"text":"我就問你"},{"start":5810.67,"end":5812.67,"text":"我們把詐騙涉及刑事案件統計進來了"},{"start":5812.67,"end":5814.67,"text":"是不是你也認為到一個國家一個地區"},{"start":5814.67,"end":5816.67,"text":"我們今天不講大陸"},{"start":5816.67,"end":5818.67,"text":"到日本到美國我們因為詐騙"},{"start":5818.67,"end":5820.67,"text":"或是涉及其他刑事案件"},{"start":5820.67,"end":5822.67,"text":"被關押也叫做旅遊風險嗎"},{"start":5822.67,"end":5824.67,"text":"還有國安法院的法律"},{"start":5824.67,"end":5826.67,"text":"包括我剛剛的報告"},{"start":5826.67,"end":5828.67,"text":"還有內政部的報告"},{"start":5828.67,"end":5830.67,"text":"就是說中國大陸制定了非常多國家安全的法律"},{"start":5830.67,"end":5832.67,"text":"那詐騙是國家安全嗎"},{"start":5832.67,"end":5834.67,"text":"其他刑事案件"},{"start":5834.67,"end":5836.67,"text":"也多達"},{"start":5836.67,"end":5838.67,"text":"58例"},{"start":5838.67,"end":5840.67,"text":"還有包括宗教的"},{"start":5840.67,"end":5842.67,"text":"國安的就一人"},{"start":5842.67,"end":5844.67,"text":"那這個可能都是涉及"},{"start":5844.67,"end":5846.67,"text":"觸犯了中國大陸剛制定的"},{"start":5846.67,"end":5848.67,"text":"這些國家安全法律"},{"start":5848.67,"end":5850.67,"text":"但你明確的寫國安的就一人嗎"},{"start":5850.67,"end":5852.67,"text":"其他的涉及宗教或其他刑事的"},{"start":5852.67,"end":5854.67,"text":"都有可能"},{"start":5854.67,"end":5856.67,"text":"因為他是用各種的刑法來判"},{"start":5856.67,"end":5858.67,"text":"所以"},{"start":5858.67,"end":5860.67,"text":"我建議涉及到"},{"start":5860.67,"end":5862.67,"text":"可能包括你們陸委會或是內政部"},{"start":5862.67,"end":5864.67,"text":"條例的什麼反獨二十二條"},{"start":5864.67,"end":5866.67,"text":"什麼之類的反國家分類法"},{"start":5866.67,"end":5868.67,"text":"這當然是國安案件"},{"start":5868.67,"end":5870.67,"text":"那我就統計在國安案件"},{"start":5870.67,"end":5872.67,"text":"你怎麼會放在其他刑事案件"},{"start":5872.67,"end":5874.67,"text":"或者是宗教案件"},{"start":5874.67,"end":5876.67,"text":"你會覺得去"},{"start":5876.67,"end":5878.67,"text":"這個"},{"start":5878.67,"end":5880.67,"text":"這個可能大家認為比較獨裁集權國家"},{"start":5880.67,"end":5882.67,"text":"到"},{"start":5882.76,"end":5884.76,"text":"沙烏地阿拉伯其實也是"},{"start":5884.76,"end":5886.76,"text":"我們的外交部會認為說"},{"start":5886.76,"end":5888.76,"text":"到沙烏地阿拉伯"},{"start":5888.76,"end":5890.76,"text":"去做這個基督教"},{"start":5890.76,"end":5892.76,"text":"或簽署教的傳教因此"},{"start":5892.76,"end":5894.76,"text":"受到司法的調查"},{"start":5894.76,"end":5896.76,"text":"叫做旅遊風險嗎"},{"start":5896.76,"end":5898.76,"text":"你剛剛提到的宗教案件"},{"start":5898.76,"end":5900.76,"text":"目前23件都是用中共刑法"},{"start":5900.76,"end":5902.76,"text":"300條來判"},{"start":5902.76,"end":5904.76,"text":"所以他就統統納入到這個刑事"},{"start":5904.76,"end":5906.76,"text":"對就是說這個就是當地國家"},{"start":5906.76,"end":5908.76,"text":"的一個法令"},{"start":5908.76,"end":5910.76,"text":"可能跟剛剛我們條列式的"},{"start":5910.76,"end":5912.76,"text":"22條或者是反國家分類法"},{"start":5912.76,"end":5914.76,"text":"或者是你們講的"},{"start":5914.76,"end":5916.76,"text":"民族團結法等等"},{"start":5916.76,"end":5918.76,"text":"有關係嗎"},{"start":5918.4,"end":5920.4,"text":"我們正在看這些法令"},{"start":5920.4,"end":5922.4,"text":"歡迎彩虹回到為什麼"},{"start":5922.4,"end":5924.4,"text":"為什麼國人不買單"},{"start":5924.13,"end":5926.13,"text":"為什麼附錄人數還是增加"},{"start":5926.13,"end":5928.13,"text":"因為他們沒有把我們陸委會"},{"start":5928.13,"end":5930.13,"text":"他們認為我們陸委會沒有在做正事"},{"start":5930.13,"end":5932.13,"text":"我們所公佈的一個訊息"},{"start":5932.13,"end":5934.13,"text":"我們在陳平時候"},{"start":5934.13,"end":5936.13,"text":"去中國大陸"},{"start":5936.13,"end":5938.13,"text":"我們國人附錄是超過600萬"},{"start":5938.13,"end":5940.13,"text":"那現在您剛說的"},{"start":5940.13,"end":5942.13,"text":"有323萬還是有很多人"},{"start":5942.13,"end":5944.13,"text":"是有一些疑慮"},{"start":5944.13,"end":5946.13,"text":"不過要跟委員報告的是"},{"start":5946.13,"end":5950.13,"text":"我們這些是其他刑事案件"},{"start":5950.13,"end":5952.13,"text":"我們這些案件的統計"},{"start":5952.13,"end":5954.13,"text":"並不是委員說的"},{"start":5954.13,"end":5956.13,"text":"在阻止交流"},{"start":5956.13,"end":5958.13,"text":"在抗中保財"},{"start":5958.13,"end":5960.13,"text":"這不是這個原意"},{"start":5960.13,"end":5962.13,"text":"我們只是讓國人了解"},{"start":5962.13,"end":5964.13,"text":"你們怎麼跟國人說你去大陸"},{"start":5964.13,"end":5966.13,"text":"你去人身安全的趨勢風險是高的"},{"start":5966.13,"end":5968.13,"text":"你要你去"},{"start":5968.13,"end":5970.13,"text":"因為我們的憲法不會限制國人去"},{"start":5970.13,"end":5972.13,"text":"但是你去你要知道"},{"start":5972.13,"end":5974.13,"text":"這個風險高"},{"start":5974.13,"end":5976.13,"text":"你不要講直接一點"},{"start":5976.13,"end":5978.13,"text":"去大陸不能做詐騙不然會被關"},{"start":5978.13,"end":5980.13,"text":"你要聽眾當地的法律"},{"start":5980.13,"end":5982.13,"text":"但是當地的法律也有很多"},{"start":5982.13,"end":5984.13,"text":"很容易被刑"},{"start":5984.13,"end":5986.13,"text":"我最關心的"},{"start":5986.13,"end":5988.13,"text":"是國安案件我不曉得您可不可以在這邊做說明"},{"start":5988.13,"end":5990.13,"text":"這一件國安案件"},{"start":5990.13,"end":5992.13,"text":"我覺得是最符合我們剛講的"},{"start":5992.13,"end":5994.13,"text":"一些他們近期的修法"},{"start":5994.13,"end":5996.13,"text":"您能夠做一些說明嗎"},{"start":5996.13,"end":5998.13,"text":"還是不方便"},{"start":5998.64,"end":6000.64,"text":"這一件因為家屬的緣故"},{"start":6000.64,"end":6002.64,"text":"我可以私底下去給你說明"},{"start":6002.64,"end":6004.64,"text":"不方便公開講"},{"start":6004.64,"end":6006.64,"text":"為什麼網路上有大家很多的言語"},{"start":6008.78,"end":6010.78,"text":"最近的這麼多的通報案件402件"},{"start":6010.78,"end":6012.78,"text":"都沒有家屬出來"},{"start":6012.78,"end":6014.78,"text":"開記者會或者去找一些"},{"start":6014.78,"end":6016.78,"text":"國際的人權團體去做聲援"},{"start":6016.78,"end":6018.78,"text":"這過去我們可以看到很多"},{"start":6018.78,"end":6020.78,"text":"包括李明哲案"},{"start":6020.78,"end":6022.78,"text":"包括副查案因為政治案件"},{"start":6022.78,"end":6024.78,"text":"附錄遭到到不法"},{"start":6024.78,"end":6026.78,"text":"司法調查或羈押的案件"},{"start":6027.51,"end":6029.51,"text":"媒體報導非常的多"},{"start":6029.51,"end":6031.51,"text":"為什麼這402件都沒有"},{"start":6031.51,"end":6033.51,"text":"大家在懷疑這402件"},{"start":6033.51,"end":6035.51,"text":"到底是什麼"},{"start":6035.51,"end":6037.51,"text":"大家攤開來一看"},{"start":6037.51,"end":6039.51,"text":"詐騙其他刑事案件我們當作"},{"start":6039.51,"end":6041.51,"text":"附錄交流的風險"},{"start":6041.51,"end":6043.51,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6043.51,"end":6045.51,"text":"剛剛的說法"},{"start":6045.51,"end":6047.51,"text":"我覺得很重要"},{"start":6047.51,"end":6049.51,"text":"為什麼家屬沒有出來"},{"start":6049.51,"end":6051.51,"text":"我覺得很多的家屬"},{"start":6051.51,"end":6053.51,"text":"都是擔心他的家人還在大陸"},{"start":6053.51,"end":6055.51,"text":"他如果出來的話"},{"start":6055.51,"end":6057.51,"text":"副查就不擔心嗎"},{"start":6058.26,"end":6060.26,"text":"過去大家"},{"start":6060.26,"end":6062.26,"text":"國際社會給壓力"},{"start":6062.26,"end":6064.26,"text":"現在突然國際社會不給壓力了嗎"},{"start":6064.26,"end":6066.26,"text":"不幫忙了嗎"},{"start":6066.26,"end":6068.26,"text":"有些是我們要尊重家屬"},{"start":6068.26,"end":6070.26,"text":"跟當事人的意願"},{"start":6070.26,"end":6072.26,"text":"當然我尊重這樣的說法"},{"start":6072.26,"end":6074.26,"text":"我沒辦法求證"},{"start":6074.26,"end":6076.26,"text":"我相信你們也不會偽造資料"},{"start":6076.26,"end":6078.26,"text":"但是裡面的案件內容大家就會認為"},{"start":6078.26,"end":6080.26,"text":"可以討論的地方"},{"start":6080.26,"end":6082.26,"text":"是非常的多"},{"start":6082.26,"end":6084.26,"text":"國務委員我要跟您報告"},{"start":6084.26,"end":6086.26,"text":"您的質疑"},{"start":6086.26,"end":6088.26,"text":"我們有兩點"},{"start":6088.26,"end":6090.26,"text":"第一個我們還是要提醒國人風險"},{"start":6090.26,"end":6092.26,"text":"畢竟這個案例"},{"start":6092.26,"end":6094.26,"text":"或是他來跟我們報案的數字"},{"start":6094.26,"end":6096.26,"text":"居高不下"},{"start":6096.26,"end":6098.26,"text":"第二個是重點"},{"start":6098.26,"end":6100.26,"text":"就是我們要促使中共當局"},{"start":6100.26,"end":6102.26,"text":"落實相關機制"},{"start":6102.26,"end":6104.26,"text":"我支持"},{"start":6104.26,"end":6106.26,"text":"有法律法規"},{"start":6106.26,"end":6108.26,"text":"要通報"},{"start":6108.26,"end":6110.26,"text":"要尊重他們的司法人權"},{"start":6110.26,"end":6112.26,"text":"但是我目前看不出來"},{"start":6112.26,"end":6114.26,"text":"剛剛我們講了"},{"start":6114.26,"end":6116.26,"text":"法律告訴大家"},{"start":6116.26,"end":6118.26,"text":"附陸費大的風險"},{"start":6118.26,"end":6120.26,"text":"但就我目前來看"},{"start":6120.26,"end":6122.26,"text":"可能就是"},{"start":6122.26,"end":6124.26,"text":"下落還沒定"},{"start":6124.26,"end":6126.26,"text":"包括失聯的"},{"start":6126.26,"end":6128.26,"text":"包括其他的刑法"},{"start":6128.26,"end":6130.26,"text":"涉及的也有"},{"start":6130.26,"end":6132.26,"text":"有關統計"},{"start":6132.26,"end":6134.26,"text":"402的總統計案件"},{"start":6134.26,"end":6136.26,"text":"是113-115"},{"start":6136.26,"end":6138.26,"text":"這個是現況嗎"},{"start":6138.26,"end":6140.26,"text":"還是過程當中已經有人找到了"},{"start":6140.26,"end":6142.26,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":6142.26,"end":6144.26,"text":"現在是有這樣的改變"},{"start":6144.26,"end":6146.26,"text":"現在是回來的"},{"start":6146.26,"end":6148.26,"text":"現在是失聯人數"},{"start":6148.26,"end":6150.26,"text":"或者是還在遭自由盤查"},{"start":6150.26,"end":6152.26,"text":"或者是仍然遭到關押的人數"},{"start":6152.26,"end":6154.26,"text":"你現在可以提供資料嗎"},{"start":6154.26,"end":6156.26,"text":"這個部分我們還要進一步統計"},{"start":6156.26,"end":6158.26,"text":"因為我們只是針對"},{"start":6158.26,"end":6160.26,"text":"當事後報案的情況"},{"start":6160.26,"end":6162.26,"text":"如果你有做事後的追蹤"},{"start":6162.26,"end":6164.26,"text":"去找你應該要知道現況有多少"},{"start":6164.26,"end":6166.26,"text":"你怎麼知道有多少人"},{"start":6166.26,"end":6168.26,"text":"我們會有"},{"start":6168.26,"end":6170.26,"text":"只不過我們要突出一個事實"},{"start":6170.26,"end":6172.26,"text":"所以國人要注意"},{"start":6172.26,"end":6174.26,"text":"這個明顯風險是提升的"},{"start":6174.26,"end":6176.26,"text":"第二個還是要讓對岸知道"},{"start":6176.26,"end":6178.26,"text":"我希望我們要發揮既有的機制"},{"start":6178.26,"end":6180.26,"text":"公開的資料也把現況"},{"start":6180.26,"end":6182.26,"text":"失聯到底現在有多少人是失聯"},{"start":6182.26,"end":6184.26,"text":"如果說我們把中華民國"},{"start":6184.26,"end":6186.26,"text":"這幾年來失聯的人數都統計下來"},{"start":6187.23,"end":6189.23,"text":"去年就兩萬三了"},{"start":6189.23,"end":6191.23,"text":"比這個比例還高"},{"start":6191.23,"end":6193.23,"text":"萬分之一比這個比例還高"},{"start":6193.23,"end":6195.23,"text":"難道就真的兩萬三千人不見了"},{"start":6195.23,"end":6197.23,"text":"會有找到的嗎"},{"start":6197.23,"end":6199.23,"text":"實際上現在還有多少人是找不到的"},{"start":6199.23,"end":6201.23,"text":"我覺得這應該也要公告"},{"start":6201.23,"end":6203.23,"text":"那另外"},{"start":6203.23,"end":6205.23,"text":"很多人都說"},{"start":6205.23,"end":6207.23,"text":"到大陸很危險除了可能被關押之外"},{"start":6207.23,"end":6209.23,"text":"可能有活摘器官的問題"},{"start":6209.23,"end":6211.23,"text":"有沒有收到通報過"},{"start":6211.23,"end":6213.23,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":6213.23,"end":6215.23,"text":"我們一直現在的旅遊警示"},{"start":6215.23,"end":6217.23,"text":"這層次"},{"start":6217.23,"end":6219.23,"text":"有沒有人通報對活摘器官的"},{"start":6221.91,"end":6223.91,"text":"我們現在的旅遊警示"},{"start":6223.91,"end":6225.91,"text":"這層次"},{"start":6225.91,"end":6227.91,"text":"有沒有人通報對活摘器官的問題"},{"start":6227.91,"end":6229.91,"text":"我們一直現在的旅遊警示"},{"start":6229.91,"end":6231.91,"text":"這層次"},{"start":6231.91,"end":6233.91,"text":"有沒有人通報對活摘器官的問題"},{"start":6233.91,"end":6235.91,"text":"我們一直現在的旅遊警示"},{"start":6235.91,"end":6237.91,"text":"這層次"},{"start":6237.91,"end":6239.91,"text":"有沒有人通報對活摘器官的問題"},{"start":6239.91,"end":6241.91,"text":"我們一直現在的旅遊警示"},{"start":6241.91,"end":6243.91,"text":"這層次"},{"start":6243.91,"end":6245.91,"text":"有沒有人通報對活摘器官的問題"},{"start":6245.91,"end":6247.91,"text":"我們一直現在的旅遊警示"},{"start":6247.91,"end":6249.91,"text":"這層次"},{"start":6225.34,"end":6227.34,"text":"我們沒有收到這個"},{"start":6227.34,"end":6229.34,"text":"我們沒有收到這個活摘器官的案例"},{"start":6229.34,"end":6231.34,"text":"我們都非常的擔心"},{"start":6231.34,"end":6233.34,"text":"希望未來也是把他揭露出來"},{"start":6233.34,"end":6235.34,"text":"誰不會有的話"},{"start":6235.34,"end":6237.34,"text":"我也會很擔心"},{"start":6237.34,"end":6239.34,"text":"那最後啊 抱歉沒時間了"},{"start":6239.53,"end":6241.53,"text":"我不喜歡我們"},{"start":6241.13,"end":6243.13,"text":"兩岸當然是現在的關係"},{"start":6243.13,"end":6245.13,"text":"怎麼樣 有些是政治的問題"},{"start":6245.62,"end":6247.62,"text":"我會說可能馬英九時代"},{"start":6247.62,"end":6249.62,"text":"為什麼可以不用現在兵兇戰壮"},{"start":6249.62,"end":6251.62,"text":"為什麼現在民眾時代"},{"start":6251.62,"end":6253.62,"text":"有些這個就會變成政治的吵架"},{"start":6253.62,"end":6255.62,"text":"但是我不希望我們陸委會變成一個放羊的孩子"},{"start":6255.62,"end":6257.62,"text":"兩岸當然是有風險的"},{"start":6257.62,"end":6259.62,"text":"但是我們不斷的去傳輸一些"},{"start":6259.62,"end":6261.62,"text":"過大的可能不夠周全的資訊"},{"start":6261.62,"end":6263.62,"text":"可能不夠周全的資訊"},{"start":6263.62,"end":6265.62,"text":"或者是蓄意堆出來的一些風險的時候"},{"start":6265.62,"end":6267.62,"text":"當國人忽視了"},{"start":6267.62,"end":6269.62,"text":"未來真的有風險發生的時候"},{"start":6269.62,"end":6271.62,"text":"那時候我們的陸委會就變成放羊的孩子了"},{"start":6271.62,"end":6273.62,"text":"不會有人在乎"},{"start":6273.62,"end":6275.62,"text":"或者是重視我們陸委會所發布的一個警訊"},{"start":6275.62,"end":6277.62,"text":"我也希望說陸委會"},{"start":6277.62,"end":6279.62,"text":"你身為一個主任委員"},{"start":6279.62,"end":6281.62,"text":"不要變成放羊的孩子"},{"start":6281.62,"end":6283.62,"text":"跟您報告"},{"start":6283.62,"end":6285.62,"text":"兩岸關係可能跌宕起伏"},{"start":6285.62,"end":6287.62,"text":"但是我們的政策"},{"start":6287.62,"end":6289.62,"text":"重中之重還是關"},{"start":6289.93,"end":6291.93,"text":"我希望未來真的風險巨生的時候"},{"start":6291.93,"end":6293.93,"text":"我們陸委會所提出的風險"},{"start":6293.93,"end":6295.93,"text":"不會再被國人忽視"},{"start":6295.93,"end":6297.93,"text":"而不是現在什麼都丟什麼訊息出來的時候"},{"start":6297.93,"end":6299.93,"text":"大家都當作一個反反後"},{"start":6299.93,"end":6301.93,"text":"消遣聊天的一個話題而已"},{"start":6301.93,"end":6303.93,"text":"這不是消遣"},{"start":6303.93,"end":6305.93,"text":"我們2017年像李明哲事件"},{"start":6305.93,"end":6307.93,"text":"那時候我們看到相關案件很少"},{"start":6308.24,"end":6310.24,"text":"我們用全國在關心李明哲"},{"start":6310.24,"end":6312.24,"text":"結果現在有402件類似的案件"},{"start":6312.24,"end":6314.24,"text":"李明哲不用做詐騙"},{"start":6314.24,"end":6316.24,"text":"李明哲不用做詐騙"},{"start":6316.24,"end":6318.24,"text":"就這樣謝謝主委"},{"start":6322.32,"end":6324.32,"text":"請王委會委員質詢"},{"start":6334.28,"end":6336.28,"text":"這是我們前陸委會"},{"start":6336.28,"end":6338.28,"text":"剛剛海基會"},{"start":6344.74,"end":6346.74,"text":"王委要好"},{"start":6346.74,"end":6348.74,"text":"早上好"},{"start":6348.3,"end":6350.3,"text":"在這裡"},{"start":6350.3,"end":6352.3,"text":"我們覺得你有沒有看到"},{"start":6352.3,"end":6354.3,"text":"今天我們的主委"},{"start":6354.3,"end":6356.3,"text":"多麼擔心我們中華民國"},{"start":6356.3,"end":6358.3,"text":"台灣被迫"},{"start":6358.3,"end":6360.3,"text":"去到台陸"},{"start":6359.83,"end":6361.83,"text":"愛主委"},{"start":6361.15,"end":6363.15,"text":"因為有詐騙"},{"start":6363.76,"end":6365.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6365.38,"end":6367.38,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6367.71,"end":6369.71,"text":"我覺得你們兩個會等我"},{"start":6370.61,"end":6372.61,"text":"做什麼"},{"start":6372.06,"end":6374.06,"text":"真正好,一家人不在"},{"start":6375.07,"end":6377.07,"text":"因為尤其最近"},{"start":6377.07,"end":6379.07,"text":"也有我們中華民國"},{"start":6379.07,"end":6381.07,"text":"台灣"},{"start":6381.4,"end":6383.4,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6382.86,"end":6383.86,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6384.11,"end":6386.11,"text":"不管他是出頭也好"},{"start":6386.64,"end":6388.64,"text":"去搶做生意也好"},{"start":6390.54,"end":6392.54,"text":"因為在這個過程當中"},{"start":6392.54,"end":6396.54,"text":"我覺得你們會守著守著"},{"start":6397.38,"end":6399.38,"text":"讓八歲的認為"},{"start":6399.38,"end":6401.38,"text":"我們台灣人沒氣"},{"start":6401.38,"end":6405.38,"text":"平常他還在台陸做生意"},{"start":6405.38,"end":6407.38,"text":"半天四個月就要回來"},{"start":6408.23,"end":6410.23,"text":"他還在這個過程當中"},{"start":6410.23,"end":6414.23,"text":"他很在本來和你們討論的時候"},{"start":6415.33,"end":6417.33,"text":"他已經是一丹沒說的人了"},{"start":6420.99,"end":6426.99,"text":"我們政府單位是不是可以來"},{"start":6430.72,"end":6432.72,"text":"我們政府單位是不是可以來"},{"start":6431.36,"end":6436.36,"text":"委員,你講的這台陸的風險很高"},{"start":6436.36,"end":6440.36,"text":"還有幾乎所有的委員、服務處"},{"start":6440.36,"end":6445.36,"text":"都會接到許多這個附錄、私聯的案"},{"start":6446.25,"end":6448.25,"text":"然後他們的家屬都很緊張"},{"start":6448.25,"end":6451.25,"text":"以前他們家屬很緊張的"},{"start":6451.25,"end":6453.25,"text":"他就是煩惱"},{"start":6453.25,"end":6456.25,"text":"這次你覺得要怎麼做"},{"start":6456.25,"end":6459.25,"text":"有沒有辦法去家屬說"},{"start":6459.25,"end":6462.25,"text":"你們什麼人現在沒錢去哪裡"},{"start":6462.25,"end":6465.25,"text":"委員,你如果接到這種案子"},{"start":6465.25,"end":6468.25,"text":"來上來我們海基會陸委會都可以"},{"start":6468.25,"end":6470.25,"text":"我們兩個單位會去"},{"start":6470.25,"end":6472.25,"text":"關心他們家裡狀況"},{"start":6472.25,"end":6474.25,"text":"會去關懷訪視"},{"start":6474.25,"end":6476.25,"text":"如果有需要的話"},{"start":6476.25,"end":6478.25,"text":"我們也會接受"},{"start":6478.25,"end":6480.25,"text":"警政署的同仁一起前往"},{"start":6480.25,"end":6482.25,"text":"我覺得說得很好聽"},{"start":6482.25,"end":6484.25,"text":"做的會笑死人"},{"start":6484.25,"end":6486.25,"text":"你覺得這台陸的陸委會會不會受傷"},{"start":6487.81,"end":6489.81,"text":"委員,你怎麼回答得這麼清楚"},{"start":6491.91,"end":6493.91,"text":"你不知道嗎"},{"start":6493.91,"end":6495.91,"text":"各位市議"},{"start":6496.01,"end":6498.01,"text":"我們給他們的消息就是"},{"start":6499.54,"end":6502.54,"text":"兩岸又沒有做好朋友"},{"start":6502.54,"end":6505.54,"text":"所以這件事情也難找"},{"s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一定要來配合啟動"},{"start":7329.66,"end":7331.66,"text":"過去對台灣的相關的機制"},{"start":7331.66,"end":7333.66,"text":"來重視"},{"start":7333.66,"end":7335.66,"text":"並保障台灣民眾"},{"start":7335.66,"end":7337.66,"text":"附路的人身安全的作用"},{"start":7337.66,"end":7339.66,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":7339.66,"end":7341.66,"text":"是比較疫情之前"},{"start":7341.66,"end":7343.66,"text":"我們人身安全的案例沒有那麼多"},{"start":7343.66,"end":7345.66,"text":"那麼這兩年來特別的多"},{"start":7345.66,"end":7347.66,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":7347.66,"end":7349.66,"text":"為什麼會每個月"},{"start":7349.66,"end":7351.66,"text":"甚至現在每週提醒"},{"start":7351.66,"end":7353.66,"text":"國人目的在這邊"},{"start":7353.66,"end":7355.66,"text":"但是數字不是重點"},{"start":7355.66,"end":7357.66,"text":"我們應該努力把數字壓低"},{"start":7357.66,"end":7359.66,"text":"這兩案都有責任"},{"start":7359.66,"end":7361.66,"text":"那麼我們"},{"start":7361.13,"end":7363.13,"text":"超支在己的部分"},{"start":7363.13,"end":7365.13,"text":"我想我們跟海基會"},{"start":7365.13,"end":7367.13,"text":"跟各部會都會通力合作"},{"start":7367.13,"end":7369.13,"text":"一定會給每個有需要的"},{"start":7369.13,"end":7371.13,"text":"國人包括他們的家屬"},{"start":7371.13,"end":7373.13,"text":"我們要去提供"},{"start":7373.13,"end":7375.13,"text":"各種的法律諮詢"},{"start":7375.13,"end":7377.13,"text":"透過很多方法來降低"},{"start":7377.13,"end":7379.13,"text":"或是減少他們家裡的困擾"},{"start":7379.13,"end":7381.13,"text":"希望能夠找到人"},{"start":7381.13,"end":7383.13,"text":"希望他們在大陸的親人"},{"start":7383.13,"end":7385.13,"text":"能夠回到台灣來"},{"start":7385.13,"end":7387.13,"text":"這個都是我們的目的"},{"start":7387.13,"end":7389.13,"text":"我們的目的在降低這個數字"},{"start":7389.13,"end":7391.13,"text":"因為這個數字"},{"start":7391.13,"end":7393.13,"text":"你看說一年"},{"start":7393.13,"end":7395.13,"text":"今年7月22日"},{"start":7395.13,"end":7397.13,"text":"又增加了126個"},{"start":7397.13,"end":7399.13,"text":"就是半年的時間"},{"start":7399.13,"end":7401.13,"text":"所以這個數字"},{"start":7401.13,"end":7403.13,"text":"真的很嚇人"},{"start":7403.13,"end":7405.13,"text":"其實我們海基會"},{"start":7405.13,"end":7407.13,"text":"也要扮演兩案的連線"},{"start":7407.13,"end":7409.13,"text":"因為你過去的"},{"start":7409.13,"end":7411.13,"text":"共同打擊犯罪"},{"start":7411.13,"end":7413.13,"text":"共打辦得不錯"},{"start":7413.13,"end":7415.13,"text":"那你過去的"},{"start":7415.13,"end":7417.13,"text":"這個成績你還是要再繼續"},{"start":7417.13,"end":7419.13,"text":"來兩案共打"},{"start":7419.13,"end":7421.13,"text":"要怎樣來"},{"start":7421.71,"end":7423.71,"text":"促進說兩案的連線"},{"start":7423.71,"end":7425.71,"text":"要怎樣來建立大家的互信"},{"start":7425.71,"end":7427.71,"text":"這是一個非常重要"},{"start":7427.71,"end":7429.71,"text":"尤其我們國人"},{"start":7429.49,"end":7430.49,"text":"就是光"},{"start":7431.31,"end":7433.31,"text":"這半年就到中國大陸旅遊"},{"start":7433.31,"end":7435.31,"text":"又超過了200萬人"},{"start":7435.31,"end":7437.31,"text":"那真的這事真的非常嚇人"},{"start":7437.31,"end":7439.31,"text":"所以我們未來"},{"start":7439.31,"end":7441.31,"text":"要怎樣來做先導"},{"start":7441.31,"end":7443.31,"text":"甚至我們國人要過去"},{"start":7443.31,"end":7445.31,"text":"我們幾個十年的案例"},{"start":7445.31,"end":7447.31,"text":"都讓國人知道"},{"start":7447.31,"end":7449.31,"text":"讓他們自己稍微警惕一下"},{"start":7449.31,"end":7451.31,"text":"不要再造成"},{"start":7451.31,"end":7453.31,"text":"那一邊又有問題"},{"start":7453.31,"end":7455.31,"text":"又來怪我們中央政府沒有作為"},{"start":7455.31,"end":7457.31,"text":"那這是非常不合理"},{"start":7458.6,"end":7460.6,"text":"是不是"},{"start":7460.6,"end":7462.6,"text":"好那請我們海基會"},{"start":7462.6,"end":7464.6,"text":"感謝委員關心"},{"start":7464.6,"end":7466.6,"text":"第一個海基會和陸委會公佈的數字和案例"},{"start":7466.6,"end":7468.6,"text":"都是真實的"},{"start":7468.72,"end":7470.72,"text":"每件都是真實"},{"start":7470.72,"end":7472.72,"text":"只是我們必須去識別化"},{"start":7472.72,"end":7474.72,"text":"因為當事人通常他會害怕"},{"start":7474.72,"end":7476.72,"text":"如果仍然家屬在那邊"},{"start":7476.72,"end":7478.72,"text":"仍然在他們手上的時候"},{"start":7478.72,"end":7480.72,"text":"他們都不希望被公開"},{"start":7480.72,"end":7482.72,"text":"但是我們公佈的每個案例"},{"start":7482.72,"end":7484.72,"text":"跟數字都真實的"},{"start":7484.72,"end":7486.72,"text":"第一個第二個我們很明確的"},{"start":7486.72,"end":7488.72,"text":"會告訴國人有哪些"},{"start":7488.72,"end":7490.72,"text":"樣態是不要去的"},{"start":7490.72,"end":7492.72,"text":"比如剛剛我講宗教的事情"},{"start":7492.72,"end":7494.72,"text":"中國是沒有宗教自由的"},{"start":7494.72,"end":7496.72,"text":"沒有宗教自由就不會有"},{"start":7496.72,"end":7498.72,"text":"宗教交流"},{"start":7498.72,"end":7500.72,"text":"所以如果我們抱著在台灣"},{"start":7500.72,"end":7502.72,"text":"所謂宗教交流的心情"},{"start":7502.72,"end":7504.72,"text":"態度去的話就會碰到問題"},{"start":7504.72,"end":7506.72,"text":"因為他沒有宗教自由"},{"start":7506.72,"end":7508.72,"text":"所以在過去三個月我該講"},{"start":7508.72,"end":7510.72,"text":"因為宗教案件被羈押的"},{"start":7510.72,"end":7512.72,"text":"已經超過是過去的50%"},{"start":7512.72,"end":7514.72,"text":"的成長率"},{"start":7514.72,"end":7516.72,"text":"非常驚人"},{"start":7516.72,"end":7518.72,"text":"而過去兩年海基會跟陸委會內政部"},{"start":7518.72,"end":7520.72,"text":"我們多方的告訴國人"},{"start":7520.72,"end":7522.72,"text":"和通過管道跟"},{"start":7522.72,"end":7524.72,"text":"一貫到總會也好團也好"},{"start":7524.72,"end":7526.72,"text":"就是說絕對不要去"},{"start":7526.72,"end":7528.72,"text":"但案件仍然發生"},{"start":7528.72,"end":7530.72,"text":"所以我們也期望透過韋德觀詢"},{"start":7530.72,"end":7532.72,"text":"把這個訊息再讓國人知道"},{"start":7532.72,"end":7534.72,"text":"不能去就不要去"},{"start":7534.72,"end":7536.72,"text":"第二個去了要做一些"},{"start":7536.72,"end":7538.72,"text":"萬全的準備"},{"start":7538.72,"end":7540.72,"text":"第一個對岸採取所有電子設備"},{"start":7540.72,"end":7542.72,"text":"的監控"},{"start":7542.72,"end":7544.72,"text":"可以隨時隨地沒收檢查"},{"start":7545.72,"end":7547.72,"text":"這個都提升了他很高的風險"},{"start":7547.72,"end":7549.72,"text":"雖然國人"},{"start":7549.72,"end":7551.72,"text":"赴中國大陸旅遊的人數"},{"start":7551.72,"end":7553.72,"text":"非常多並不表示去"},{"start":7553.72,"end":7555.72,"text":"你一定會有問題但是去"},{"start":7555.72,"end":7557.72,"text":"這個國家最大風險就是"},{"start":7557.72,"end":7559.72,"text":"你不知道風險的標準在哪裡"},{"start":7559.72,"end":7561.72,"text":"這個有它的風險這個我們必須"},{"start":7561.72,"end":7563.72,"text":"告訴國人如實的告訴國人"},{"start":7563.72,"end":7565.72,"text":"好的好的那謝謝我們副總"},{"start":7565.72,"end":7567.72,"text":"市長我們都如實的"},{"start":7567.72,"end":7569.72,"text":"告訴我們所有國人"},{"start":7569.72,"end":7571.72,"text":"兩岸的觀光都採用對等"},{"start":7571.72,"end":7573.72,"text":"的方式不然你"},{"start":7573.72,"end":7575.72,"text":"光是半年就兩百多萬人"},{"start":7575.72,"end":7577.72,"text":"過去那邊觀光"},{"start":7577.72,"end":7579.72,"text":"那我照台灣來的人數那麼少"},{"start":7579.72,"end":7581.72,"text":"這都不能看"},{"start":7581.72,"end":7583.72,"text":"我們還是要適度的觀光"},{"start":7583.72,"end":7585.72,"text":"好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7591.94,"end":7593.94,"text":"我們下回請王洪威委員發言諮詢"},{"start":7602.76,"end":7604.76,"text":"等一下"},{"start":7613.37,"end":7615.37,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7617.79,"end":7619.79,"text":"我們內政部部長"},{"start":7619.79,"end":7621.79,"text":"以及移民署署長"},{"start":7628.39,"end":7630.39,"text":"國人好好"},{"start":7630.97,"end":7632.97,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7633.25,"end":7635.25,"text":"好"},{"start":7635.25,"end":7637.25,"text":"部長署長昨天"},{"start":7637.25,"end":7639.25,"text":"在日本熊本發生了"},{"start":7639.25,"end":7641.25,"text":"七點一級的強震"},{"start":7641.25,"end":7643.25,"text":"所以大家就非常關心"},{"start":7643.25,"end":7645.25,"text":"現在還留在這個熊本"},{"start":7645.25,"end":7647.25,"text":"的我們的台灣的民眾"},{"start":7647.25,"end":7649.25,"text":"那但是問題是"},{"start":7649.25,"end":7651.25,"text":"交通部現在"},{"start":7651.25,"end":7653.25,"text":"只能夠整理出"},{"start":7653.25,"end":7655.25,"text":"就是組團"},{"start":7655.25,"end":7657.25,"text":"到日本九州的"},{"start":7657.25,"end":7659.25,"text":"觀光團的人數"},{"start":7659.25,"end":7661.25,"text":"但是大家知道大家去日本旅遊"},{"start":7661.25,"end":7663.25,"text":"絕大部分都是自由行"},{"start":7663.25,"end":7665.25,"text":"對吧其實參加團的人"},{"start":7665.25,"end":7667.25,"text":"也非常少所以我想請問一下"},{"start":7667.25,"end":7669.25,"text":"我們到目前為止"},{"start":7669.25,"end":7671.25,"text":"我們內政部移民署"},{"start":7671.25,"end":7673.25,"text":"有沒有掌握"},{"start":7673.25,"end":7675.25,"text":"我們目前還"},{"start":7675.25,"end":7677.25,"text":"滯留在這個熊本的"},{"start":7677.25,"end":7679.25,"text":"這個台灣民眾的人數"},{"start":7680.3,"end":7682.3,"text":"好"},{"start":7681.11,"end":7683.11,"text":"委員好"},{"start":7683.11,"end":7685.11,"text":"這個我們在"},{"start":7685.11,"end":7687.11,"text":"發生我們那個熊本的"},{"start":7687.11,"end":7689.11,"text":"七點一的地震之後其實"},{"start":7689.11,"end":7691.11,"text":"這個我們有透過外交部"},{"start":7691.11,"end":7693.11,"text":"去請外交部要來協助"},{"start":7693.11,"end":7695.11,"text":"來協助這個"},{"start":7695.11,"end":7697.11,"text":"我們國人赴日本"},{"start":7697.11,"end":7699.11,"text":"的這個部分"},{"start":7699.11,"end":7701.11,"text":"那我們也立刻在我們電腦資訊系統裡面"},{"start":7701.11,"end":7703.11,"text":"去篩率就是說"},{"start":7703.11,"end":7705.11,"text":"在近這一週裡面"},{"start":7705.11,"end":7707.11,"text":"那我們到九州地區"},{"start":7707.11,"end":7709.11,"text":"的這個熊本跟富邦"},{"start":7709.11,"end":7711.11,"text":"不管是旅遊"},{"start":7711.11,"end":7713.11,"text":"或者是公務"},{"start":7713.11,"end":7715.11,"text":"大概有接近兩萬人左右"},{"start":7715.11,"end":7717.11,"text":"以上"},{"start":7717.11,"end":7719.11,"text":"所以目前就是大概"},{"start":7719.11,"end":7721.11,"text":"你們現在推估有兩萬人"},{"start":7721.11,"end":7723.11,"text":"在熊本"},{"start":7723.11,"end":7725.11,"text":"熊本跟"},{"start":7725.11,"end":7727.11,"text":"就是九州區"},{"start":7727.11,"end":7729.11,"text":"九州區域就是可能在"},{"start":7729.11,"end":7731.11,"text":"災區附近所以我們還是會"},{"start":7731.11,"end":7733.11,"text":"希望當然這個"},{"start":7733.11,"end":7735.11,"text":"因為他們現在可能還會繼續有餘震"},{"start":7735.11,"end":7737.11,"text":"我們還是要去掌握"},{"start":7737.11,"end":7739.11,"text":"我們台灣民眾不管是基於旅遊"},{"start":7739.11,"end":7741.11,"text":"觀光或者是"},{"start":7741.11,"end":7743.11,"text":"他在這個商務的行程"},{"start":7743.11,"end":7745.11,"text":"那更不要說台積電在熊本有場"},{"start":7745.11,"end":7747.11,"text":"好那個我們能夠掌握"},{"start":7747.11,"end":7749.11,"text":"好謝謝好那個署長請回"},{"start":7749.11,"end":7751.11,"text":"那我請一下"},{"start":7751.11,"end":7753.11,"text":"部長留下來請那個"},{"start":7753.11,"end":7755.11,"text":"警政署署長"},{"start":7761.65,"end":7763.65,"text":"好部長署長"},{"start":7763.78,"end":7765.78,"text":"這兩天"},{"start":7766.99,"end":7768.99,"text":"大家討論的就是有關於"},{"start":7768.99,"end":7770.99,"text":"這個韋淳佑"},{"start":7770.99,"end":7772.99,"text":"這個小編"},{"start":7772.99,"en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sense"},{"start":8169.59,"end":8171.59,"text":"有沒有任何"},{"start":8171.59,"end":8173.59,"text":"有沒有任何一位民眾"},{"start":8173.59,"end":8175.59,"text":"看到影片"},{"start":8175.59,"end":8177.59,"text":"會誤以為我們賴清德總統"},{"start":8177.59,"end":8179.59,"text":"是本篇筆"},{"start":8180.19,"end":8182.19,"text":"有沒有可能"},{"start":8192.17,"end":8194.17,"text":"這樣的一個個案再去做"},{"start":8194.17,"end":8196.17,"text":"你們自己都說"},{"start":8196.17,"end":8198.17,"text":"你們已經"},{"start":8198.17,"end":8200.17,"text":"已經經過鑑定"},{"start":8200.17,"end":8202.17,"text":"你剛剛不是經過鑑定嗎"},{"start":8202.17,"end":8204.17,"text":"那正好我來請教一下"},{"start":8204.17,"end":8206.17,"text":"這位是局長"},{"start":8206.17,"end":8208.17,"text":"請問一下你們是什麼時候"},{"start":8208.17,"end":8210.17,"text":"鑑定出來"},{"start":8210.17,"end":8212.17,"text":"他是身為"},{"start":8212.17,"end":8214.17,"text":"是用AI"},{"start":8214.17,"end":8216.17,"text":"合成的聲音"},{"start":8216.23,"end":8218.23,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":8218.23,"end":8220.23,"text":"在整個過程中我們遇到"},{"start":8220.23,"end":8222.23,"text":"我們接到這樣的檢舉"},{"start":8222.23,"end":8224.23,"text":"我們就會同步的了解"},{"start":8224.23,"end":8226.23,"text":"這個帳號的使用人到底是誰"},{"start":8226.23,"end":8228.23,"text":"然後也會做相關的鑑定"},{"start":8228.42,"end":8230.42,"text":"所以我們剛剛委員有"},{"start":8230.42,"end":8232.42,"text":"委員有催訊到我們"},{"start":8232.42,"end":8234.42,"text":"為什麼去找這個偉業民眾的時候"},{"start":8234.42,"end":8236.42,"text":"那個時候我們要確定他"},{"start":8236.42,"end":8238.42,"text":"這個帳號是不是他使用"},{"start":8238.42,"end":8240.42,"text":"然後我們沒有做任何的強制處分"},{"start":8241.46,"end":8243.46,"text":"我們知道他後來回電話給我們"},{"start":8243.46,"end":8245.46,"text":"回電話給我們之後"},{"start":8245.46,"end":8247.46,"text":"我們發現這個帳號是他使用"},{"start":8247.46,"end":8249.46,"text":"而且是一個團隊在製作的"},{"start":8249.46,"end":8251.46,"text":"那表示當下也都沒有"},{"start":8251.46,"end":8253.46,"text":"這個直接到案的必要"},{"start":8253.46,"end":8255.46,"text":"所以我們就說"},{"start":8255.46,"end":8257.46,"text":"沒關係後續我們就會"},{"start":8257.46,"end":8259.46,"text":"做我們同步也在做"},{"start":8259.46,"end":8261.46,"text":"這個是不是身為的鑑定"},{"start":8262.4,"end":8264.4,"text":"好那請問一下你們所謂的"},{"start":8264.4,"end":8266.4,"text":"身為鑑定是什麼時候完成"},{"start":8267.08,"end":8269.08,"text":"也是當天的下午"},{"start":8269.08,"end":8271.08,"text":"25號下午"},{"start":8271.08,"end":8273.08,"text":"所以你們先上門"},{"start":8273.1,"end":8275.1,"text":"後完成鑑定"},{"start":8275.1,"end":8277.1,"text":"因為他我們就要檢舉我們就要開始"},{"start":8277.1,"end":8279.1,"text":"所以與先你在沒有完成鑑定之前"},{"start":8280.59,"end":8282.59,"text":"你就先上門"},{"start":8282.59,"end":8284.59,"text":"我們就是先了解說"},{"start":8284.59,"end":8286.59,"text":"這個帳號的使用人到底是真的假的"},{"start":8286.59,"end":8288.59,"text":"如果他表示說這個帳號"},{"start":8288.59,"end":8290.59,"text":"不是他用的我們調查的方向又不一樣"},{"start":8290.59,"end":8292.59,"text":"但是同步我們是做鑑定的"},{"start":8293.89,"end":8295.89,"text":"好過你們做鑑定"},{"start":8295.89,"end":8297.89,"text":"我要講就是說一般的老百姓"},{"start":8297.89,"end":8299.89,"text":"當你上門的時候"},{"start":8299.89,"end":8301.89,"text":"你只是問他這個帳號是不是你的而已"},{"start":8302.72,"end":8304.72,"text":"我們當時去"},{"start":8304.72,"end":8306.72,"text":"找這位偉先生說"},{"start":8306.72,"end":8308.72,"text":"我們是跟社區官員"},{"start":8308.72,"end":8310.72,"text":"你有沒有讓他下架嗎"},{"start":8310.72,"end":8312.72,"text":"請主任帶我們去"},{"start":8312.72,"end":8314.72,"text":"我們也沒有進到他的家門"},{"start":8314.72,"end":8316.72,"text":"那偉先生不在"},{"start":8316.72,"end":8318.72,"text":"你先不要答分手問"},{"start":8318.72,"end":8320.72,"text":"你們有沒有讓他下架這個影片"},{"start":8320.72,"end":8322.72,"text":"我們是說這個影片"},{"start":8322.72,"end":8324.72,"text":"有沒有嘛"},{"start":8325.46,"end":8327.46,"text":"我們同仁有建議他是不是要調整或是下架"},{"start":8327.46,"end":8329.46,"text":"對嘛"},{"start":8329.46,"end":8331.46,"text":"我們沒有強制他"},{"start":8331.46,"end":8333.46,"text":"第一個你是說你問他帳號是不是他的"},{"start":8333.46,"end":8335.46,"text":"然後事實上你先讓他下架"},{"start":8335.46,"end":8337.46,"text":"然後你又講說事實上有沒有鑑定"},{"start":8337.46,"end":8339.46,"text":"是在你上門之後"},{"start":8339.46,"end":8341.46,"text":"才完成鑑定"},{"start":8341.46,"end":8343.46,"text":"那我想請問一下"},{"start":8343.46,"end":8345.46,"text":"你們完成鑑定的時間"},{"start":8346.74,"end":8348.74,"text":"幾個小時"},{"start":8348.8,"end":8350.8,"text":"我們現在時間上面"},{"start":8350.8,"end":8352.8,"text":"原則上是最長會在"},{"start":8352.8,"end":8354.8,"text":"四個小時會完成"},{"start":8354.8,"end":8356.8,"text":"但是現在的儀器"},{"start":8356.8,"end":8358.8,"text":"都會很快"},{"start":8358.8,"end":8360.8,"text":"看我們影片的長短不一"},{"start":8360.8,"end":8362.8,"text":"所以我這邊要講"},{"start":8362.8,"end":8364.8,"text":"就是你們現在有關於"},{"start":8364.8,"end":8366.8,"text":"是不是身為監禮"},{"start":8366.8,"end":8368.8,"text":"我們其實討論到很多身為"},{"start":8368.8,"end":8370.8,"text":"包括學舉的時候我們都討論有沒有身為的問題"},{"start":8370.8,"end":8372.8,"text":"身為的問題非常"},{"start":8372.8,"end":8374.8,"text":"我們真的是非常重視"},{"start":8374.8,"end":8376.8,"text":"尤其別說你有性向"},{"start":8376.8,"end":8378.8,"text":"所以我們要講說"},{"start":8378.8,"end":8380.8,"text":"你這種所謂的冒充"},{"start":8380.8,"end":8382.8,"text":"你會不會主以為人家有性"},{"start":8382.8,"end":8384.8,"text":"選舉的時候"},{"start":8384.8,"end":8386.8,"text":"或者是說有沒有什麼性的影響"},{"start":8386.8,"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28,"end":8607.28,"text":"辦成這樣子"},{"start":8607.7,"end":8609.7,"text":"難道不該檢討嗎"},{"start":8609.7,"end":8610.7,"text":"那我請問一下"},{"start":8610.7,"end":8612.7,"text":"局長"},{"start":8611.63,"end":8613.63,"text":"所以"},{"start":8612.85,"end":8614.85,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8614.36,"end":8616.36,"text":"到他去"},{"start":8616.84,"end":8618.84,"text":"去到他家裡去問他這些事情"},{"start":8618.84,"end":8620.84,"text":"你事先知道嗎"},{"start":8620.84,"end":8622.84,"text":"我剛才忘了問你這件事"},{"start":8622.75,"end":8624.75,"text":"我們是同仁後來跟我講"},{"start":8624.75,"end":8626.75,"text":"說接到檢舉去的"},{"start":8626.75,"end":8628.75,"text":"所以去沒有他"},{"start":8628.75,"end":8630.75,"text":"他上門之前你知不知道"},{"start":8630.75,"end":8632.75,"text":"不知道"},{"start":8632.75,"end":8634.75,"text":"你也不知道"},{"start":8634.75,"end":8636.75,"text":"所以就是這些"},{"start":8636.75,"end":8638.75,"text":"基層警察激婆了"},{"start":8638.75,"end":8640.75,"text":"我們案件進來我們會有輪子的大隊"},{"start":8641.11,"end":8643.11,"text":"他們案件進來他們就會啟動他們的調查程序"},{"start":8645.18,"end":8647.18,"text":"所以程序上面就會確定這個影片"},{"start":8647.18,"end":8649.18,"text":"他的帳號到底使用人是"},{"start":8649.18,"end":8651.18,"text":"真的還假的"},{"start":8651.46,"end":8653.46,"text":"如果是假的又要啟動另外的這個"},{"start":8653.46,"end":8655.46,"text":"這個帳號是不是"},{"start":8655.46,"end":8657.46,"text":"真的假的"},{"start":8657.73,"end":8659.73,"text":"還要跑到人家家裡去問"},{"start":8659.73,"end":8661.73,"text":"所以我們沒有去我們請地方的同仁去"},{"start":8662.74,"end":8664.74,"text":"那不是一樣嗎"},{"start":8664.74,"end":8666.74,"text":"你行事急需跟地方的派出所去"},{"start":8666.74,"end":8668.74,"text":"對民眾來講"},{"start":8668.74,"end":8670.74,"text":"感受不是一樣嗎"},{"start":8670.74,"end":8672.74,"text":"你講話真好笑"},{"start":8672.74,"end":8674.74,"text":"我知道委員關心的點"},{"start":8674.74,"end":8676.74,"text":"但是我們對於這個過程中"},{"start":8676.74,"end":8678.74,"text":"我們也請社區的主委帶我們去"},{"start":8678.74,"end":8680.74,"text":"在整個態度上面我們都是"},{"start":8680.74,"end":8682.74,"text":"我們沒有任何強制性"},{"start":8682.74,"end":8684.74,"text":"我們沒有任何的強制性"},{"start":8684.74,"end":8686.74,"text":"也沒有強迫他你這個影片一定要下來"},{"start":8687.82,"end":8689.82,"text":"你不是要求人家下架嗎"},{"start":8689.82,"end":8691.82,"text":"我們是跟他講說你要不要調整"},{"start":8691.82,"end":8693.82,"text":"你只是因為"},{"start":8693.82,"end":8695.82,"text":"那你誰要求下架"},{"start":8696.04,"end":8698.04,"text":"我們是建議他你要不要調整或是下架"},{"start":8699.92,"end":8701.92,"text":"你們這麼好心喔"},{"start":8701.92,"end":8703.92,"text":"我們當時這個時間到我不要浪費太多時間"},{"start":8703.92,"end":8705.92,"text":"我們當時在大罷免的時候"},{"start":8705.92,"end":8707.92,"text":"有多少這種"},{"start":8707.92,"end":8709.92,"text":"什麼製作我們各種各樣的"},{"start":8709.92,"end":8711.92,"text":"還在這個在招牌上的"},{"start":8711.92,"end":8713.92,"text":"在馬路上的"},{"start":8713.92,"end":8715.92,"text":"要玩會會的臉"},{"start":8715.92,"end":8717.92,"text":"然後讓我穿什麼什麼"},{"start":8717.92,"end":8719.92,"text":"什麼軍服啦這樣"},{"start":8719.92,"end":8721.92,"text":"我們要求下架"},{"start":8721.92,"end":8723.92,"text":"有嗎沒有人下架耶"},{"start":8724.19,"end":8726.19,"text":"大罷免那個時候"},{"start":8726.19,"end":8728.19,"text":"大罷免團體做什麼都是對的"},{"start":8728.81,"end":8730.81,"text":"結果這一般我來信"},{"start":8731.93,"end":8733.93,"text":"就這樣就說你就趕快說趕快把他下架"},{"start":8735.58,"end":8737.58,"text":"你們這樣的執法"},{"start":8737.58,"end":8741.58,"text":"我不希望台灣在落後倒退到變成是一個警察國家"},{"start":8741.58,"end":8743.58,"text":"所以執法非常重要"},{"start":8743.58,"end":8745.58,"text":"執法我們支持"},{"start":8745.58,"end":8747.58,"text":"但是你一定要有法律上的依據"},{"start":8747.58,"end":8749.58,"text":"在這一次這樣看起來"},{"start":8749.58,"end":8751.58,"text":"你們在第一線執法就是有問題嘛"},{"start":8751.58,"end":8753.58,"text":"否則的話你們應該講完就說"},{"start":8753.58,"end":8755.58,"text":"對就是我我們全部都是依法來執行"},{"start":8755.58,"end":8757.58,"text":"現在你看們"},{"start":8757.58,"end":8759.58,"text":"你們覺得全部都不是我"},{"start":8759.58,"end":8761.58,"text":"這也代表說"},{"start":8761.58,"end":8763.58,"text":"這樣的執法會引起"},{"start":8763.58,"end":8765.58,"text":"引起人民對司法的信任"},{"start":8765.58,"end":8767.58,"text":"好不好"},{"start":8768.03,"end":8770.03,"text":"這點非常非常重要"},{"start":8770.03,"end":8772.03,"text":"尤其是這種已經是滿滿的政治性的案件"},{"start":8772.03,"end":8774.03,"text":"好不好以上"},{"start":8780.31,"end":8782.31,"text":"下一位請黃捷委員發言質詢"},{"start":8788.9,"end":8790.9,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":8790.9,"end":8792.9,"text":"拜託我們同事大家注意一下時間好不好"},{"start":8792.9,"end":8794.9,"text":"每個人時間都很寶貴"},{"start":8794.9,"end":8796.9,"text":"我們先請邱主委"},{"start":8802.6,"end":8804.6,"text":"好主委好"},{"start":8804.6,"end":8806.6,"text":"先跟您請教今天早上有一題是說"},{"start":8806.6,"end":8808.6,"text":"這個上海的小貓熊"},{"start":8808.6,"end":8810.6,"text":"要來到台灣"},{"start":8810.6,"end":8812.6,"text":"但是上海團遙船是被封殺"},{"start":8812.6,"end":8814.6,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":8814.6,"end":8816.6,"text":"台北市長講完就說我們陸委會"},{"start":8816.6,"end":8818.6,"text":"質疑陸委會說"},{"start":8818.6,"end":8820.6,"text":"這跟統戰有什麼關係"},{"start":8820.6,"end":8822.6,"text":"那對你們是提出非常強烈的質疑"},{"start":8822.6,"end":8824.6,"text":"可不可以請主委在這邊說明一下"},{"start":8824.6,"end":8826.6,"text":"這整個案件的"},{"start":8826.6,"end":8828.6,"text":"來龍去脈"},{"start":8828.6,"end":8830.6,"text":"到底所謂的他們說這個"},{"start":8830.6,"end":8832.6,"text":"小貓熊的這個上海團是什麼情況"},{"st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跟我們報告"},{"start":9133.21,"end":9135.21,"text":"有關於您剛提到的"},{"start":9135.21,"end":9137.21,"text":"留置盤查特別有一半"},{"start":9137.21,"end":9139.21,"text":"都是公務人員都是他回來"},{"start":9139.21,"end":9141.21,"text":"跟員服機關"},{"start":9141.21,"end":9143.21,"text":"或是跟我們相關機關"},{"start":9143.21,"end":9145.21,"text":"來做回報"},{"start":9145.21,"end":9147.21,"text":"所以那些事實的樣態都是事實"},{"start":9147.21,"end":9149.21,"text":"所以我們為什麼要"},{"start":9149.21,"end":9151.21,"text":"讓我們的公務人員"},{"start":9151.21,"end":9153.21,"text":"附錄一定要完成請假程序"},{"start":9153.21,"end":9155.21,"text":"透過請假程序"},{"start":9155.21,"end":9157.21,"text":"我們要呼籲我們公務人員"},{"start":9157.21,"end":9159.21,"text":"要注意風險"},{"start":9159.21,"end":9161.21,"text":"不管你的職位是什麼"},{"start":9161.21,"end":9163.21,"text":"是基層公務人員也好"},{"start":9163.21,"end":9165.21,"text":"或者是跟國安沒有相關"},{"start":9165.21,"end":9167.21,"text":"中國大陸對於"},{"start":9167.21,"end":9169.21,"text":"我們公務人員都很有興趣"},{"start":9169.21,"end":9171.21,"text":"所以這些人員都是因為"},{"start":9171.21,"end":9173.21,"text":"沒錯 主委你發個證明"},{"start":9173.21,"end":9175.21,"text":"中國大陸對台灣的公務員"},{"start":9175.21,"end":9177.21,"text":"很有興趣"},{"start":9177.21,"end":9179.21,"text":"因為透過公務員可以得知"},{"start":9179.21,"end":9181.21,"text":"台灣非常詳細的情資"},{"start":9181.21,"end":9183.21,"text":"甚至可以問到關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":9183.21,"end":9185.21,"text":"這樣子的內容"},{"start":9185.21,"end":9187.21,"text":"因為你如果心中能設防"},{"start":9187.21,"end":9189.21,"text":"很多的到中國大陸"},{"start":9189.21,"end":9191.21,"text":"很多的官員刻意的去籠絡你"},{"start":9191.21,"end":9193.21,"text":"去對你示好"},{"start":9193.21,"end":9195.21,"text":"或是送你東西"},{"start":9195.21,"end":9197.21,"text":"你可能沒有心防"},{"start":9197.21,"end":9199.21,"text":"你慢慢的成為他在地協力者"},{"start":9199.21,"end":9201.21,"text":"所以我在這邊"},{"start":9201.21,"end":9203.21,"text":"要跟主委建議的"},{"start":9203.21,"end":9205.21,"text":"第一個公務員去到中國大陸"},{"start":9205.21,"end":9207.21,"text":"去旅遊或是任何的活動"},{"start":9207.21,"end":9209.21,"text":"本來就有一定的程序"},{"start":9209.21,"end":9213.21,"text":"這一定要非常嚴加的提醒大家"},{"start":9213.21,"end":9217.21,"text":"公務員大家為了自身的安危起見"},{"start":9217.21,"end":9219.21,"text":"該登錄的程序要登錄"},{"start":9219.21,"end":9221.21,"text":"該留的通訊的管道要留"},{"start":9221.21,"end":9223.21,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":9223.21,"end":9225.21,"text":"再來像這樣子的案件"},{"start":9225.21,"end":9227.21,"text":"拜託陸委會一定也要"},{"start":9227.21,"end":9229.21,"text":"喊請國安局調查局警政署"},{"start":9229.21,"end":9231.21,"text":"大家一定要協力作業"},{"start":9231.21,"end":9233.21,"text":"一個這樣子的案件已經太多了"},{"start":9233.21,"end":9235.21,"text":"這不是單一個案"},{"start":9235.21,"end":9237.21,"text":"是他們非常系統性的"},{"start":9237.21,"end":9239.21,"text":"想要對台灣的公務員下手"},{"start":9239.21,"end":9241.21,"text":"最後我請教一個問題"},{"start":9241.21,"end":9243.21,"text":"請問這一些公務員真的去了"},{"start":9243.21,"end":9245.21,"text":"結果被留置盤查"},{"start":9245.21,"end":9247.21,"text":"然後被長達六個小時的徵訊之後"},{"start":9247.21,"end":9249.21,"text":"回到台灣他們要通報"},{"start":9249.21,"end":9251.21,"text":"請問要跟誰通報"},{"start":9251.21,"end":9253.21,"text":"不論是公務員不論是一般民眾"},{"start":9253.21,"end":9255.21,"text":"或者是進行宗教交流的這些人"},{"start":9255.21,"end":9257.21,"text":"一貫道等等的"},{"start":9257.21,"end":9259.21,"text":"這些人回到台灣他們要找誰"},{"start":9259.21,"end":9261.21,"text":"是 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除非剛剛這個刑事局長"},{"start":9697.37,"end":9699.37,"text":"怎麼解釋 署長怎麼解釋"},{"start":9699.37,"end":9701.37,"text":"他就要先認定你員警的態度"},{"start":9701.37,"end":9703.37,"text":"員警上門是有問題的"},{"start":9703.37,"end":9705.37,"text":"但是我必須要提出一點的就是"},{"start":9706.63,"end":9708.63,"text":"如果溫水煮青蛙"},{"start":9708.63,"end":9710.63,"text":"可以讓這個無法可管"},{"start":9710.63,"end":9714.63,"text":"仿冒申為總統的聲音不斷的發聲"},{"start":9714.63,"end":9716.63,"text":"有一天他是輕微的游"},{"start":9716.63,"end":9718.63,"text":"有一天他會是國安"},{"start":9718.63,"end":9720.63,"text":"有一天他會是更重要的問題"},{"start":9720.63,"end":9722.63,"text":"部長我想請問你對這個案件的意見"},{"start":9722.63,"end":9724.63,"text":"是我想各案的部分"},{"start":9724.63,"end":9726.63,"text":"我就不在這邊評析"},{"start":9726.63,"end":9728.63,"text":"因為我今天有報告過"},{"start":9728.63,"end":9730.63,"text":"已經移送"},{"start":9730.63,"end":9732.63,"text":"我要跟部長請問的是"},{"start":9732.63,"end":9734.63,"text":"申為總統聲音這件事情"},{"start":9734.63,"end":9736.63,"text":"是 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因為現行的法制"},{"start":9772.63,"end":9774.63,"text":"可能沒有辦法到這裡"},{"start":9774.63,"end":9776.63,"text":"可能只針對"},{"start":9776.63,"end":9778.63,"text":"選舉的時候可能有針對候選人"},{"start":9778.63,"end":9780.63,"text":"但是"},{"start":9779.85,"end":9783.85,"text":"這種申委的好像要在散佈不實影像"},{"start":9783.85,"end":9785.85,"text":"或者是選罷法"},{"start":9785.85,"end":9787.85,"text":"或者是兒童兒少法"},{"start":9787.85,"end":9789.85,"text":"相關這些會有規範到"},{"start":9789.85,"end":9791.85,"text":"所以我覺得這非常的嚴肅"},{"start":9791.85,"end":9793.85,"text":"必須要趕快大家來做一個深度的討論"},{"start":9793.85,"end":9795.85,"text":"來處理"},{"start":9795.85,"end":9797.85,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":9797.85,"end":9799.85,"text":"最後我請這個陸委會主委"},{"start":9799.24,"end":9801.24,"text":"部長請回"},{"start":9802.99,"end":9804.99,"text":"李委員好"},{"start":9821.6,"end":9823.6,"text":"這兩個法律其實就足以讓"},{"start":9825.8,"end":9827.8,"text":"台灣不管是在國內"},{"start":9827.8,"end":9829.8,"text":"或者是在海外旅遊"},{"start":9829.8,"end":9831.8,"text":"甚至進入到"},{"start":9831.8,"end":9833.8,"text":"大陸港澳地區都深陷危險"},{"start":9835.69,"end":9837.69,"text":"我舉一個例子"},{"start":9837.69,"end":9839.69,"text":"這個例子可能在網路上很有名"},{"start":9840.23,"end":9842.23,"text":"有個對中國一向是比較"},{"start":9842.23,"end":9844.23,"text":"有一個台灣演員"},{"start":9844.23,"end":9846.23,"text":"比較喜歡在中國發展"},{"start":9846.23,"end":9848.23,"text":"他叫王柔穎"},{"start":9849.53,"end":9851.53,"text":"那他在罪上發表了很多的"},{"start":9851.53,"end":9853.53,"text":"包含他在北京的這些"},{"start":9853.53,"end":9855.53,"text":"生活點滴"},{"start":9855.53,"end":9857.53,"text":"但是他遇上了一個糾紛之後"},{"start":9857.53,"end":9859.53,"text":"被帶到派出所"},{"start":9859.53,"end":9861.53,"text":"沒想到就被派出所所長"},{"start":9861.53,"end":9863.53,"text":"所長副所長進行思想工作"},{"start":9863.53,"end":9865.53,"text":"那他突然就發現說"},{"start":9865.53,"end":9867.53,"text":"他在台灣不會遇到這種事情"},{"start":9867.53,"end":9869.53,"text":"即使你舔著跪他"},{"start":9869.53,"end":9871.53,"text":"他還是會被盯上"},{"start":9871.53,"end":9873.53,"text":"因為只要灌上這兩個法律"},{"start":9873.53,"end":9875.53,"text":"其實台灣人在那裡就是有危險的"},{"start":9875.53,"end":9877.53,"text":"這陸委會還是要高度的宣導"},{"start":9878.18,"end":9880.18,"text":"是 我想我們國人"},{"start":9880.18,"end":9882.18,"text":"遇到這些法律"},{"start":9882.18,"end":9884.18,"text":"你連不表態的自由都沒有"},{"start":9884.18,"end":9886.18,"text":"比如說你那個演員"},{"start":9886.18,"end":9888.18,"text":"像我們台商也是希望"},{"start":9888.18,"end":9890.18,"text":"他盡量不要談論政治"},{"start":9890.18,"end":9892.18,"text":"但是現在的法律"},{"start":9892.18,"end":9894.18,"text":"就要求你要表態處統"},{"start":9894.18,"end":9896.18,"text":"你連劇統的自由都沒有"},{"start":9896.18,"end":9898.18,"text":"你連不表態的自由都沒有"},{"start":9898.18,"end":9900.18,"text":"所以這些法律都會"},{"start":9900.18,"end":9902.18,"text":"威脅到我們國人"},{"start":9902.18,"end":9904.18,"text":"特別是在中國大陸的"},{"start":9904.18,"end":9906.18,"text":"我們台商"},{"start":9906.18,"end":9908.18,"text":"風險最高"},{"start":9908.18,"end":9910.18,"text":"我還是支持陸委會要繼續的呼籲"},{"start":9910.18,"end":9912.18,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9918.4,"end":9920.4,"text":"我們現在會請李坤城委員發言質詢"},{"start":9920.4,"end":9922.4,"text":"發言質詢來休息五分鐘"},{"start":9929.8,"end":9931.8,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9931.8,"end":9933.8,"text":"我們請內政部劉部長"},{"start":9936.4,"end":9938.4,"text":"警政署的張署長"},{"start":9939.83,"end":9941.83,"text":"委員好"},{"start":9941.25,"end":9943.25,"text":"部長好"},{"start":9943.25,"end":9945.25,"text":"署長好"},{"start":9944.52,"end":9948.52,"text":"今天內政委員會的專案報告"},{"start":9948.52,"end":9950.52,"text":"這其實已經是"},{"start":9950.52,"end":9952.52,"text":"先射箭"},{"start":9952.52,"end":9954.52,"text":"再劃靶了"},{"start":9954.52,"end":9956.52,"text":"它的題目講什麼"},{"start":9955.62,"end":9957.62,"text":"燃耳校長小編遭警突襲"},{"start":9957.62,"end":9959.62,"text":"插水錶的事件"},{"start":9960.45,"end":9962.45,"text":"檢視警察執法標準跟行政中立"},{"start":9963.55,"end":9965.55,"text":"這個題目啊"},{"start":9965.06,"end":9967.06,"text":"他就是認為"},{"start":9966.63,"end":9968.63,"text":"這個我們警察去執法"},{"start":9968.84,"end":9970.84,"text":"這不公道"},{"start":9970.3,"end":9972.3,"text":"是有問題的"},{"start":9972.3,"end":9974.3,"text":"是行政部中立的"},{"start":9974.3,"end":9976.3,"text":"因為上面已經寫了插水錶"},{"start":9976.16,"end":9978.16,"text":"上面已經寫了插水錶"},{"start":9978.79,"end":9980.79,"text":"部長"},{"start":9979.84,"end":9981.84,"text":"你會很尷尬"},{"start":9981.84,"end":9983.84,"text":"但是我覺得這個對於警察來講"},{"start":9983.84,"end":9985.84,"text":"非常的不公平"},{"start":9985.84,"end":9987.84,"text":"人家有檢舉"},{"start":9987.74,"end":9989.74,"text":"他去查案"},{"start":9989.74,"end":9991.74,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":9991.74,"end":9993.74,"text":"被"},{"start":9991.2,"end":9993.2,"text":"被我們內政委員會"},{"start":9993.2,"end":9995.2,"text":"今天來做專案報告認為是"},{"start":9995.2,"end":9997.2,"text":"插水錶"},{"start":9996.26,"end":9998.26,"text":"我想部長是不是要幫我們警察同仁講一下話"},{"start":9998.26,"end":10000.26,"text":"報告委員今天的題目"},{"start":10000.26,"end":10002.26,"text":"其實我們兩天前才被告知"},{"start":10002.26,"end":10004.26,"text":"但是我們尊重立法院"},{"start":10004.26,"end":10006.26,"text":"處理這個專案報告"},{"start":10006.26,"end":10008.26,"text":"但是我還是一樣"},{"start":10008.26,"end":10010.26,"text":"台灣既然是民主法治的國家"},{"start":10010.26,"end":10012.26,"text":"那警察所扮演的工作"},{"start":10012.26,"end":10014.26,"text":"就非常的重要"},{"start":10014.26,"end":10016.26,"text":"我認為警察是人民的保姆"},{"start":10016.26,"end":10018.26,"text":"他對於非法的案件"},{"start":10018.26,"end":10020.26,"text":"那如果有按照我們的警察職權"},{"start":10020.26,"end":10022.26,"text":"刑事法或是按照一般的"},{"start":10022.26,"end":10024.26,"text":"行政程序他們都會依法處理"},{"start":10024.26,"end":10026.26,"text":"包括我們的基層警員"},{"start":10026.26,"end":10028.26,"text":"我相信他們在"},{"start":10028.26,"end":10030.26,"text":"查查案件的時候"},{"start":10030.26,"end":10032.26,"text":"這個SOP在所有的這個警察"},{"start":10032.26,"end":10034.26,"text":"養成的過程當中"},{"start":10034.26,"end":10036.26,"text":"都是交代的非常的清楚"},{"start":10036.26,"end":10038.26,"text":"所以我全力支持我們的警員依法辦案"},{"start":10038.26,"end":10040.26,"text":"對啊我們支持警察"},{"start":10040.26,"end":10042.26,"text":"依法執法"},{"start":10042.26,"end":10044.26,"text":"那結果今天的專案報告"},{"start":10044.26,"end":10046.26,"text":"還是擺明說這是插水錶"},{"start":10046.92,"end":10048.92,"text":"插水錶"},{"start":10048.92,"end":10050.92,"text":"那這不是先說見再畫吧"},{"start":10050.92,"end":10052.92,"text":"這什麼意思呢"},{"start":10052.92,"end":10054.92,"text":"第二個這個案子是不是這個"},{"start":10054.92,"end":10056.92,"text":"台北警檢所在偵辦當中"},{"start":10055.4,"end":10057.4,"text":"現在目前在偵辦當中"},{"start":10057.4,"end":10059.4,"text":"在偵辦當中所以我們今天討論這個"},{"start":10059.4,"end":10061.4,"text":"個案是怎樣是要干預司法嗎"},{"start":10061.4,"end":10063.4,"text":"我們裡面都不會談到這個內容"},{"start":10063.4,"end":10065.4,"text":"我知道你們有你們的分寸"},{"start":10065.4,"end":10067.4,"text":"我是說今天的報告"},{"start":10067.4,"end":10069.4,"text":"今天報告講這個題目"},{"start":10069.4,"end":10071.4,"text":"講這個已經"},{"start":10071.4,"end":10073.4,"text":"這個在北檢偵辦中的案件"},{"start":10073.4,"end":10075.4,"text":"所以今天來做專案報告"},{"start":10075.4,"end":10077.4,"text":"是想要來干預司法嗎"},{"start":10077.76,"end":10079.76,"text":"那我再請教一下"},{"start":10079.76,"end":10081.76,"text":"這個事情到我們這個"},{"start":10081.98,"end":10083.98,"text":"局長在這邊嘛"},{"start":10083.82,"end":10085.82,"text":"來我跟你講"},{"start":10085.58,"end":10087.58,"text":"這個好"},{"start":10087.26,"end":10089.26,"text":"台北市長講萬安"},{"start":10089,"end":10091,"text":"好他講"},{"start":10091,"end":10093,"text":"他說有事衝著我來"},{"start":10092.58,"end":10094.58,"text":"他不要針對小編"},{"start":10094.58,"end":10096.58,"text":"插水錶"},{"start":10096.58,"end":10098.58,"text":"他就坦承自己呢"},{"start":10098.58,"end":10100.58,"text":"這個有找朱立倫"},{"start":10100.58,"end":10102.58,"text":"然後拜託這個韋淳祐這個團隊"},{"start":10102.58,"end":10104.58,"text":"來協助宣傳"},{"start":10104.85,"end":10106.85,"text":"講萬安自己承認自己去教說人家犯罪了喔"},{"start":10106.85,"end":10108.85,"text":"來這個局長"},{"start":10108.85,"end":10110.85,"text":"我在這邊就舉發"},{"start":10110.85,"end":10112.85,"text":"去查一下講萬安"},{"start":10113.25,"end":10115.25,"text":"去調查一下講萬安啊"},{"start":10115.25,"end":10117.25,"text":"去約談一下講萬安啊"},{"start":10117.25,"end":10119.25,"text":"約好說"},{"start":10117.98,"end":10119.98,"text":"不要不是說他衝著我來好了"},{"start":10119.98,"end":10121.98,"text":"他自己已經承認了啊"},{"start":10121.91,"end":10123.91,"text":"自己承認說他就是教說"},{"start":10123.91,"end":10125.91,"text":"這個叫做韋淳祐的人"},{"start":10125.91,"end":10127.91,"text":"去做這個影片"},{"start":10128.83,"end":10130.83,"text":"那我現在就要檢舉啦"},{"start":10130.83,"end":10132.83,"text":"我現在就告發啊你們就要去查啊"},{"start":10133.06,"end":10135.06,"text":"好不好"},{"start":10134.11,"end":10136.11,"text":"各位報告現在是剛才我們已經報警北京指揮"},{"start":10136.11,"end":10138.11,"text":"對啊現在又多了一個幕後的常紀人"},{"start":10138.11,"end":10140.11,"text":"他自己講啊"},{"start":10142.09,"end":10144.09,"text":"他自己講說講萬安他自己講他是教說的啊"},{"start":10144.09,"end":10146.09,"text":"難道不應該去查嗎"},{"start":10146.09,"end":10148.09,"text":"我們會配合檢察官的指示我們來辦理"},{"start":10148.09,"end":10150.09,"text":"對啊那我就在這邊講"},{"start":10150.09,"end":10152.09,"text":"因為他自己都已經承認說他去教說的啊"},{"start":10152.09,"end":10154.09,"text":"就應該要去查啊對不對"},{"start":10155.09,"end":10157.09,"text":"是不是"},{"start":10156.6,"end":10158.6,"text":"我在這邊就檢舉他"},{"start":10159.34,"end":10161.34,"text":"要動起來啊事情都要動起來啊"},{"start":10162.93,"end":10164.93,"text":"這邊不是說我是立委叫你查他去查"},{"start":10164.93,"end":10166.93,"text":"是因為他自己承認的"},{"start":10167.12,"end":10169.12,"text":"他自己承認說他就是教說這個"},{"start":10169.12,"end":10171.12,"text":"有存在去做這個影片的嘛"},{"start":10171.12,"end":10173.12,"text":"難道不應該去瞭解他的動機是在哪裡嗎"},{"start":10174.14,"end":10176.14,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10176.23,"end":10178.23,"text":"去查一下他自己講的"},{"start":10178.23,"end":10180.23,"text":"這個不是我在誤賴他的"},{"start":10179.98,"end":10181.98,"text":"好我再請教一下"},{"start":10181.98,"end":10183.98,"text":"這個其實都是依法有據的"},{"start":10183.98,"end":10185.98,"text":"我看你們這個也都講得很清楚了"},{"start":10186.59,"end":10188.59,"text":"這個你們有去做這個身為的檢測嗎"},{"start":10190.81,"end":10192.81,"text":"發現說這個影片"},{"start":10192.94,"end":10194.94,"text":"還有呢這個語速啊音色"},{"start":10194.94,"end":10196.94,"text":"呼吸的節奏聲音"},{"start":10196.94,"end":10198.94,"text":"特徵異常有一次AI生成特性嘛"},{"start":10200.82,"end":10202.82,"text":"是"},{"start":10210.01,"end":10212.01,"text":"就用AI偽造的可能性嘛對不對"},{"start":10214.57,"end":10216.57,"text":"好那個聲音"},{"start":10216.57,"end":10218.57,"text":"他們現在講說"},{"start":10218.57,"end":10220.57,"text":"那個聲音就算聽起來是賴總統"},{"start":10221.15,"end":10223.15,"text":"我相信他是應該用賴總統的聲音去做變造的"},{"start":10223.15,"end":10225.15,"text":"那大家去查"},{"start":10226.31,"end":10230.31,"text":"他說啊不會人不會相信說賴總統說他就是本評比"},{"start":10230.31,"end":10232.31,"text":"然後大家就以為說這個賴總統"},{"start":10232.31,"end":10234.31,"text":"還講他是本評比"},{"start":10233.94,"end":10235.94,"text":"那如果按照國民黨的邏輯"},{"start":10237.25,"end":10239.25,"text":"那我也可以用盧秀燕的聲音啊"},{"start":10240.64,"end":10242.64,"text":"我也可以用盧秀燕的聲音講說我是本評比"},{"start":10244.29,"end":10246.29,"text":"我來自中年游子"},{"start":10246.46,"end":10248.46,"text":"中年游子來自台中"},{"start":10248.46,"end":10250.46,"text":"因為我八年才檢查一次"},{"start":10250.46,"end":10252.46,"text":"所以造成了這次的大問題"},{"start":10252.46,"end":10254.46,"text":"可不可以這樣做"},{"start":10255.44,"end":10257.44,"text":"大家都有可能成為案件的主角"},{"start":10257.44,"end":10259.44,"text":"都有可能成為受害者"},{"start":10260.33,"end":10262.33,"text":"所以啊這個東西迴力標會很快"},{"start":10262.33,"end":10264.33,"text":"如果我們今天不去查"},{"start":10265.11,"end":10267.11,"text":"他也可能變造盧秀燕的聲音啊"},{"start":10267.96,"end":10269.96,"text":"他也可能變造蔣萬恩的聲音啊"},{"start":10269.96,"end":10271.96,"text":"蔣萬恩他也可以去"},{"start":10271.96,"end":10273.96,"text":"就是用他的聲音去變造啊"},{"start":10275.18,"end":10277.18,"text":"說好去推薦"},{"start":10277.13,"end":10279.13,"text":"這個受虐的幼兒園"},{"start":10279.71,"end":10281.71,"text":"他做得很好"},{"start":10281.71,"end":10283.71,"text":"因為我的小孩也在這邊念"},{"start":10283.71,"end":10285.71,"text":"把他那個什麼"},{"start":10285.71,"end":10287.71,"text":"給幼稚園的一封信"},{"start":10287.71,"end":10289.71,"text":"用他的聲音再講一次"},{"start":10289.71,"end":10291.71,"text":"可以嗎蔣萬恩有可能成為受害者啊"},{"start":10291.71,"end":10293.71,"text":"所以東西這個東西不去查"},{"start":10293.71,"end":10295.71,"text":"那每個人"},{"start":10295.71,"end":10297.71,"text":"不分黨派"},{"start":10297.71,"end":10299.71,"text":"你我都有可能成為受害者"},{"start":10299.59,"end":10301.59,"text":"尤其年底選舉要到了"},{"start":10301.59,"end":10303.59,"text":"用這種聲違"},{"start":10303.48,"end":10305.48,"text":"去變造"},{"start":10304.85,"end":10306.85,"text":"這個選舉"},{"start":10306.23,"end":10308.23,"text":"都有可能性"},{"start":10309.04,"end":10311.04,"text":"那不論是縣市長選舉"},{"start":10311.04,"end":10313.04,"text":"更重要的總統選舉"},{"start":10313.04,"end":10315.04,"text":"他如果說偽造"},{"start":10315.04,"end":10317.04,"text":"再一次偽造總統的聲音"},{"start":10316.88,"end":10318.88,"text":"然後發布一些甚至"},{"start":10318.88,"end":10320.88,"text":"跟國安有相關的"},{"start":10320.88,"end":10322.88,"text":"這都會影響很大啊"},{"start":10322.5,"end":10324.5,"text":"所以我是支持"},{"start":10324.5,"end":10326.5,"text":"這個我們的警察同仁"},{"start":10326.6,"end":10328.6,"text":"有人檢舉了就該去查"},{"start":10328.6,"end":10330.6,"text":"就按照目前的警察職權刑事法"},{"start":10330.6,"end":10332.6,"text":"該去查就去查"},{"start":10332.6,"end":10334.6,"text":"不要說這個報告出來說這個是查水表"},{"start":10334.6,"end":10336.6,"text":"你們就有這個壓力"},{"start":10337.1,"end":10339.1,"text":"第二個我在講"},{"start":10339.1,"end":10341.1,"text":"蔣萬恩去約談一下"},{"start":10341.1,"end":10343.1,"text":"因為他自己說他是他教說的"},{"start":10342.55,"end":10344.55,"text":"是他叫他出來的"},{"start":10344.55,"end":10346.55,"text":"那就是說衝著他去"},{"start":10346.55,"end":10348.55,"text":"反正你就去約談他"},{"start":10348.55,"end":10350.55,"text":"看他的背後的動機目的"},{"start":10350.72,"end":10352.72,"text":"到底在哪裡"},{"start":10352.72,"end":10354.72,"text":"是不是要去干擾社會的秩序"},{"start":10354.72,"end":10356.72,"text":"檢察官如果有需要他會找我們去"},{"start":10356.72,"end":10358.72,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10359.39,"end":10361.39,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":10367.96,"end":10369.96,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":10370.19,"end":10372.19,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10375.05,"end":10377.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10378.54,"end":10380.54,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10408.54,"end":10410.54,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10420.68,"end":10422.68,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10425.25,"end":10427.25,"text":"確實"},{"start":10429.96,"end":10431.96,"text":"一年去日上半年"},{"start":10431.96,"end":10433.96,"text":"接近四八月的日期"},{"start":10433.96,"end":10435.96,"text":"然後一年"},{"start":10435.96,"end":10437.96,"text":"上半年"},{"start":10448.17,"end":10450.17,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10449.6,"end":10451.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10452.98,"end":10454.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10454.98,"end":10456.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10456.98,"end":10458.98,"text":"還在注意"},{"start":10458.98,"end":10460.98,"text":"通常要過人失聯"},{"start":10460.98,"end":10462.98,"text":"通常是很多人過"},{"start":10462.98,"end":10464.98,"text":"其他的家屬跟外交部報"},{"start":10464.98,"end":10466.98,"text":"所以他的家屬去日上半年"},{"start":10466.98,"end":10468.98,"text":"他失聯可能才會讓他們查個地"},{"start":10468.98,"end":10470.98,"text":"我只不小心確認反應"},{"start":10470.98,"end":10472.98,"text":"我要跟他來討論"},{"start":10472.98,"end":10474.98,"text":"我只能知道真實的事"},{"start":10474.98,"end":10476.98,"text":"所以就忘記了"},{"start":10476.98,"end":10478.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10478.98,"end":10480.98,"text":"就糾結說你沒跟他講這東西"},{"start":10480.98,"end":10482.98,"text":"所以我們就進一步"},{"start":10482.98,"end":10484.98,"text":"走到九州地區的地方"},{"start":10484.98,"end":10486.98,"text":"這兩個"},{"start":10486.98,"end":10488.98,"text":"現在是很漂亮"},{"start":10488.98,"end":10490.98,"text":"聽起來有點多"},{"start":10490.98,"end":10492.98,"text":"你跟老師很清楚"},{"start":10492.98,"end":10494.98,"text":"對"},{"start":10494.98,"end":10496.98,"text":"我已經"},{"start":10496.98,"end":10498.98,"text":"好"},{"start":10498.98,"end":10500.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10500.98,"end":10502.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10502.98,"end":10504.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10504.98,"end":10506.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10507.79,"end":10509.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10732.83,"end":10734.83,"text":"好"},{"start":10736.92,"end":10738.92,"text":"我們繼續開會"},{"start":10738.92,"end":10740.92,"text":"下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言質詢"},{"start":10740.92,"end":10742.92,"text":"鍾嘉斌不在"},{"start":10742.92,"end":10744.92,"text":"下一位請許宇禎委員發言質詢"},{"start":10753.76,"end":10755.76,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10755.76,"end":10757.76,"text":"我們請內政部劉部長跟警政署張署長"},{"start":10767.11,"end":10769.11,"text":"部長好署長好"},{"start":10769.11,"end":10771.11,"text":"今天"},{"start":10771.11,"end":10773.11,"text":"特別安排了一個就是在上個禮拜六"},{"start":10773.11,"end":10775.11,"text":"可以說是引起了"},{"start":10775.11,"end":10777.11,"text":"大家這個"},{"start":10777.11,"end":10779.11,"text":"社會上的一個非常"},{"start":10779.11,"end":10781.11,"text":"華然的一個針對"},{"start":10781.28,"end":10783.28,"text":"有關言論自由"},{"start":10783.28,"end":10785.28,"text":"還有涉及到就是是不是"},{"start":10785.28,"end":10787.28,"text":"有查水表還有警方的這個"},{"start":10787.28,"end":10789.28,"text":"執法的這個標準跟行政"},{"start":10789.28,"end":10791.28,"text":"中立到底有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":10791.28,"end":10793.28,"text":"所以今天特別安排這樣子"},{"start":10793.28,"end":10795.28,"text":"的一個這個"},{"start":10795.28,"end":10797.28,"text":"報告那我想中華民國"},{"start":10797.28,"end":10799.28,"text":"剛剛剛剛部長也特別提到"},{"start":10799.28,"end":10801.28,"text":"中華民國是一個法治的國家"},{"start":10801.28,"end":10803.28,"text":"那絕對也不允許"},{"start":10803.28,"end":10805.28,"text":"就是偽造別人"},{"start":10805.28,"end":10807.28,"text":"的聲音那請教一下"},{"start":10807.28,"end":10809.28,"text":"部長請問一下就是"},{"start":10809.28,"end":10811.28,"text":"偽造啊的定義是什麼"},{"start":10811.28,"end":10813.28,"text":"可以請你說明嗎"},{"start":10813.5,"end":10815.5,"text":"嗯"},{"start":10814.8,"end":10816.8,"text":"華然"},{"start":10816.8,"end":10818.8,"text":"請部長好嗎"},{"start":10818.8,"end":10820.8,"text":"是"},{"start":10820.99,"end":10822.99,"text":"報告委員偽造一般"},{"start":10822.99,"end":10824.99,"text":"如果有法律上的定義的話"},{"start":10824.99,"end":10826.99,"text":"我們是尊重法律上的定義"},{"start":10826.99,"end":10828.99,"text":"那我告訴部長法律上的定義是"},{"start":10828.99,"end":10830.99,"text":"會經授權"},{"start":10830.99,"end":10832.99,"text":"冒用他人名義"},{"start":10832.99,"end":10834.99,"text":"這是偽造的定義那你在"},{"start":10834.99,"end":10836.99,"text":"這個影片中你可以看到"},{"start":10836.99,"end":10838.99,"text":"一開始就講說我是本田筆"},{"start":10838.99,"end":10840.99,"text":"那所以說這個"},{"start":10840.99,"end":10842.99,"text":"影片中有冒用他人的"},{"start":10842.99,"end":10844.99,"text":"名義嗎"},{"start":10845.69,"end":10847.69,"text":"報告委員影片的"},{"start":10847.69,"end":10849.69,"text":"所有的內容的來源之中"},{"start":10849.69,"end":10851.69,"text":"我想文書的定義"},{"start":10851.69,"end":10853.69,"text":"不是只有影片本身還包括"},{"start":10853.69,"end":10855.69,"text":"聲音也是文書裡面的"},{"start":10855.69,"end":10857.69,"text":"會經授權冒用他人名義嗎"},{"start":10857.69,"end":10859.69,"text":"所以我現在請教你的是"},{"start":10859.69,"end":10861.69,"text":"這個影片有冒用他人名義嗎"},{"start":10863.28,"end":10865.28,"text":"要看這個總編的"},{"start":10865.28,"end":10867.28,"text":"影音影帶"},{"start":10867.28,"end":10869.28,"text":"是全部不是只有"},{"start":10869.28,"end":10871.28,"text":"段章曲音"},{"start":10871.28,"end":10873.28,"text":"那他現在有說"},{"start":10873.28,"end":10875.28,"text":"他上面寫字稱我是本田筆"},{"start":10875.28,"end":10877.28,"text":"從頭到尾都沒有提到"},{"start":10877.28,"end":10879.28,"text":"賴總統的名字"},{"start":10879.28,"end":10881.28,"text":"我們的重點就是在這個"},{"start":10881.28,"end":10883.28,"text":"這個影音"},{"start":10883.28,"end":10885.28,"text":"到底有沒有"},{"start":10885.28,"end":10887.28,"text":"我覺得我們一直在強調說"},{"start":10887.28,"end":10889.28,"text":"台灣是民主法治的國家"},{"start":10889.28,"end":10891.28,"text":"所以言論自由是相當重要的"},{"start":10891.28,"end":10893.28,"text":"那所以說連司法院"},{"start":10893.28,"end":10895.28,"text":"也都提到說基於時事的"},{"start":10895.28,"end":10897.28,"text":"諷刺評論跟創作"},{"start":10897.28,"end":10901.28,"text":"屬於憲法保障的言論自由"},{"start":10901.28,"end":10903.28,"text":"所以說針對這樣子的"},{"start":10903.28,"end":10905.28,"text":"這個司法院的這個見解是這樣"},{"start":10905.28,"end":10907.28,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":10907.28,"end":10909.28,"text":"我們不能是尊重言論自由"},{"start":10909.28,"end":10911.28,"text":"跟創造自由"},{"start":10911.28,"end":10913.28,"text":"但是言論自由不能去"},{"start":10913.28,"end":10915.28,"text":"觸犯到法律的這個"},{"start":10915.28,"end":10917.28,"text":"好那我們就來"},{"start":10917.28,"end":10919.28,"text":"來看好一下就是這個案件"},{"start":10919.28,"end":10921.28,"text":"我們是"},{"start":10921.28,"end":10923.28,"text":"他是7月24上架"},{"start":10923.28,"end":10925.28,"text":"那7月25下午"},{"start":10925.28,"end":10927.28,"text":"那我們的員警就登門"},{"start":10927.28,"end":10929.28,"text":"去這個"},{"start":10929.28,"end":10931.28,"text":"直接說要去找尾存佑"},{"start":10931.28,"end":10933.28,"text":"請問一下當時"},{"start":10933.28,"end":10935.28,"text":"有任何的依據可以登門上訪"},{"start":10935.28,"end":10937.28,"text":"這個上去"},{"start":10937.28,"end":10939.28,"text":"要說要找尾存佑"},{"start":10939.28,"end":10941.28,"text":"而且要他去製作筆錄嗎"},{"start":10939.69,"end":10941.69,"text":"那這個是前置的對於是不是"},{"start":10941.69,"end":10943.69,"text":"查證他的這個帳號"},{"start":10943.69,"end":10945.69,"text":"有沒有被冒用"},{"start":10945.69,"end":10947.69,"text":"那為什麼你還去做筆錄呢"},{"start":10947.69,"end":10949.69,"text":"沒有因為查證完之後就沒有"},{"start":10949.69,"end":10951.69,"text":"他講說是他就沒有"},{"start":10951.69,"end":10953.69,"text":"要求我來製作筆錄"},{"start":10953.69,"end":10955.69,"text":"那所以說就老師對這件事情"},{"start":10955.69,"end":10957.69,"text":"你們就已經查證了"},{"start":10957.69,"end":10959.69,"text":"因為這個案因為是"},{"start":10959.69,"end":10961.69,"text":"可能就是"},{"start":10961.69,"end":10963.69,"text":"色顯語音的部分是"},{"start":10963.69,"end":10965.69,"text":"剛講的就是說如果是"},{"start":10965.69,"end":10967.69,"text":"這個偽造的話"},{"start":10967.69,"end":10969.69,"text":"就是說會讓人家冒認"},{"start":10969.69,"end":10971.69,"text":"或是你們會覺得會認為是"},{"start":10971.69,"end":10973.69,"text":"總統的這個聲音所會引起"},{"start":10973.69,"end":10975.69,"text":"這樣的部分可是你看一開始"},{"start":10975.69,"end":10977.69,"text":"就講我是本篇筆"},{"start":10977.69,"end":10979.69,"text":"那部長會相信"},{"start":10979.69,"end":10981.69,"text":"這個是賴總統自己的"},{"start":10981.69,"end":10983.69,"text":"配音然後自稱嗎"},{"start":10983.69,"end":10985.69,"text":"我是一統這個我是本篇筆嗎"},{"start":10985.69,"end":10987.69,"text":"部長您看到這樣的"},{"start":10987.69,"end":10989.69,"text":"影片您會認為是"},{"start":10989.69,"end":10991.69,"text":"總統的聲音嗎是總統本人嗎"},{"start":10991.69,"end":10993.69,"text":"報告委員因為這件已經北檢"},{"start":10993.69,"end":10995.69,"text":"在偵辦我這不做任何評析"},{"start":10995.69,"end":10997.69,"text":"我想這不是不做任何評析"},{"start":10997.69,"end":10999.69,"text":"報告委員我們要尊重"},{"start":10999.69,"end":11001.69,"text":"司法警察在辦案所以你們"},{"start":11001.69,"end":11003.69,"text":"如果做任何評析的話"},{"start":11003.69,"end":11005.69,"text":"反而會影響到辦案"},{"start":11005.69,"end":11007.69,"text":"剛剛在這個"},{"start":11007.69,"end":11009.69,"text":"我們在開會之前您有受訪"},{"start":11009.69,"end":11011.69,"text":"你就有講啦你說"},{"start":11011.69,"end":11013.69,"text":"這個台灣這個是屬於民主法"},{"start":11013.69,"end":11015.69,"text":"這個國家保障言論自由但不能"},{"start":11015.69,"end":11017.69,"text":"偽造別人的聲音"},{"start":11017.69,"end":11019.69,"text":"所以這個是通案嗎"},{"start":11019.69,"end":11021.69,"text":"而且是在這個過程你已經有受訪"},{"start":11021.69,"end":11023.69,"text":"不能偽造別人的聲音我沒有"},{"start":11023.69,"end":11025.69,"text":"好那我再請教一下"},{"start":11025.69,"end":11027.69,"text":"專業的部分來去請教"},{"start":11027.69,"end":11029.69,"text":"第一個就是好"},{"start":11029.69,"end":11031.69,"text":"我們的報告說本案警方依據"},{"start":11031.69,"end":11033.69,"text":"這個檢舉內容依法查證"},{"start":11033.69,"end":11035.69,"text":"依刑事訴訟法230條"},{"start":11035.69,"end":11037.69,"text":"跟231條"},{"start":11037.69,"end":11039.69,"text":"就是因為司法警察知道"},{"start":11039.69,"end":11041.69,"text":"有犯罪嫌疑所以就是"},{"start":11041.69,"end":11043.69,"text":"跟這個疾赴有調查"},{"start":11043.69,"end":11045.69,"text":"跟保全證據的法定責任"},{"start":11045.69,"end":11047.69,"text":"所以日後只要有人"},{"start":11047.69,"end":11049.69,"text":"檢舉這樣的案件所以"},{"start":11049.69,"end":11051.69,"text":"所以這個警察就是一定會去"},{"start":11051.69,"end":11053.69,"text":"案零查訪嗎"},{"start":11053.73,"end":11055.73,"text":"我想就是因為個案的這個狀況"},{"start":11055.73,"end":11057.73,"text":"就是我們會依照"},{"start":11057.73,"end":11059.73,"text":"的個案的偵查的程序"},{"start":11059.73,"end":11061.73,"text":"去做了解"},{"start":11061.73,"end":11063.73,"text":"24號下午下午25號"},{"start":11063.73,"end":11065.73,"text":"就上門都查訪嗎"},{"start":11065.73,"end":11067.73,"text":"現在看起來就是說這一些"},{"start":11067.73,"end":11069.73,"text":"的這個是不是偽造變造"},{"start":11069.73,"end":11071.73,"text":"那這些帳號"},{"start":11071.73,"end":11073.73,"text":"這個帳號是非常重要確定是在"},{"start":11073.73,"end":11075.73,"text":"國外是國內是非常重要"},{"start":11075.73,"end":11077.73,"text":"是不是本人"},{"start":11077.73,"end":11079.73,"text":"就是這個報告寫說"},{"start":11079.73,"end":11081.73,"text":"警方初步檢視相關影片"},{"start":11081.73,"end":11083.73,"text":"然後涉及這個"},{"start":11083.73,"end":11085.73,"text":"疑似深度偽造總統的聲音"},{"start":11085.73,"end":11087.73,"text":"但是如果照剛剛"},{"start":11087.73,"end":11089.73,"text":"我想在這個其他委員質詢"},{"start":11089.73,"end":11091.73,"text":"的時候事實上當時"},{"start":11091.73,"end":11093.73,"text":"都還沒有鑑定的結果出來嗎"},{"start":11093.73,"end":11095.73,"text":"同步鑑定"},{"start":11095.73,"end":11097.73,"text":"那請問一下是什麼時候"},{"start":11097.73,"end":11099.73,"text":"鑑定出來的"},{"start":11099.73,"end":11101.73,"text":"那個20"},{"start":11101.73,"end":11103.73,"text":"25號"},{"start":11103.73,"end":11105.73,"text":"何情局長什麼時候"},{"start":11105.73,"end":11107.73,"text":"鑑定出來的"},{"start":11107.73,"end":11109.73,"text":"也是當天下午是同步"},{"start":11109.73,"end":11111.73,"text":"在處理的"},{"start":11111.73,"end":11113.73,"text":"一邊鑑定一邊登門上訪"},{"start":11113.73,"end":11115.73,"text":"各位委員報告"},{"start":11115.73,"end":11117.73,"text":"我們之前的前置的查訪"},{"start":11117.73,"end":11119.73,"text":"階段就是"},{"start":11119.73,"end":11121.73,"text":"我們去了解"},{"start":11121.73,"end":11123.73,"text":"這個帳號是不是"},{"start":11123.73,"end":11125.73,"text":"所以你們先上門然後再同步"},{"start":11125.73,"end":11127.73,"text":"再鑑定我們沒有任何"},{"start":11127.73,"end":11129.73,"text":"的強制作為"},{"start":11129.73,"end":11131.73,"text":"我們也沒有限制他的這個"},{"start":11131.73,"end":11133.73,"text":"自由那我們表示說"},{"start":11133.73,"end":11135.73,"text":"就是還沒有鑑定的結果之前"},{"start":11135.73,"end":11137.73,"text":"你們就先登門去"},{"start":11137.73,"end":11139.73,"text":"去找委員陳佑是這樣嗎"},{"start":11139.73,"end":11141.73,"text":"同步嘛所以就是還沒有鑑定結果"},{"start":11141.73,"end":11143.73,"text":"出來那當時你們是依據哪一點"},{"start":11143.73,"end":11145.73,"text":"認為說有犯罪嫌疑"},{"start":11145.73,"end":11147.73,"text":"所以你們要登門去查訪"},{"start":11147.73,"end":11149.73,"text":"跟委員報告這個案件現在已經"},{"start":11149.73,"end":11151.73,"text":"在北檢起訴"},{"start":11151.73,"end":11153.73,"text":"所以我們不太談這個案件"},{"start":11153.73,"end":11155.73,"text":"好再請教您一下刑法"},{"start":11155.73,"end":11157.73,"text":"309條你們在報告裡"},{"start":11157.73,"end":11159.73,"text":"有提到是公然侮辱罪"},{"start":11159.73,"end":11161.73,"text":"310條是毀謗罪"},{"start":11161.73,"end":11163.73,"text":"那請問這個影片的內容是說明"},{"start":11163.73,"end":11165.73,"text":"本填筆的相關知識"},{"start":11165.73,"end":11167.73,"text":"請問侮辱了誰、毀謗了誰"},{"start":11167.73,"end":11169.73,"text":"這一樣是相關的內容對不起"},{"start":11169.73,"end":11171.73,"text":"容我不要在這邊評論好不好"},{"start":11171.73,"end":11173.73,"text":"好那還有再請教"},{"start":11173.73,"end":11175.73,"text":"您一下就是這兩樣都是"},{"start":11175.73,"end":11177.73,"text":"屬於告訴哪一任"},{"start":11177.76,"end":11179.76,"text":"請問總統有提到嗎"},{"start":11180.48,"end":11182.48,"text":"這個部分大概如果是"},{"start":11182.48,"end":11184.48,"text":"210、216"},{"start":11184.48,"end":11186.48,"text":"309跟310"},{"start":11186.48,"end":11188.48,"text":"這是你們在報告裡寫的"},{"start":11188.48,"end":11190.48,"text":"相關法律的認定我們會由"},{"start":11190.48,"end":11192.48,"text":"這個檢察官來"},{"start":11192.48,"end":11194.48,"text":"我只是問你就是說這兩項都屬於告訴哪一任"},{"start":11194.48,"end":11196.48,"text":"你們在報告裡寫說可能有涉及這兩項"},{"start":11196.48,"end":11198.48,"text":"請問總統有提到嗎"},{"start":11198.48,"end":11200.48,"text":"沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":11200.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extra"},{"start":11567.76,"end":11569.76,"text":"啊 委員你說的暗行"},{"start":11569.76,"end":11572.24,"text":"如果你有暗行 你可以交我"},{"start":11572.24,"end":11573.52,"text":"我可以交你啊"},{"start":11574.12,"end":11576.12,"text":"欸 我們同仁有沒有接到"},{"start":11576.12,"end":11577.320000000002,"text":"我有問候你啊"},{"start":11577.320000000002,"end":11579.320000000002,"text":"有齁 那我們"},{"start":11583.39,"end":11585.39,"text":"中央的閣級幹部呢"},{"start":11585.39,"end":11587.39,"text":"他的親生呢"},{"start":11592.99,"end":11593.49,"text":"哈"},{"start":11594.96,"end":11597.96,"text":"我們會選擇兩岸共打機制向對岸問"},{"start":11597.96,"end":11599.96,"text":"同時喔 問委員可以的話"},{"start":11599.96,"end":11601.96,"text":"不是啦 是議員是"},{"start":11601.96,"end":11603.96,"text":"他們是想被迫害"},{"start":11603.96,"end":11605.96,"text":"我們來賺人家國金嗎"},{"start":11605.96,"end":11607.96,"text":"也不分黨派"},{"start":11607.96,"end":11609.96,"text":"不不不 不分黨派"},{"start":11609.96,"end":11611.96,"text":"如果他是上議"},{"start":11612.97,"end":11614.97,"text":"有興趣暗行"},{"start":11614.97,"end":11616.97,"text":"喔 這樣我們就是興趣金班"},{"start":11616.87,"end":11619.87,"text":"喔 針對中央共打機的環節"},{"start":11619.87,"end":11621.87,"text":"去理解嘛"},{"start":11621.87,"end":11623.87,"text":"也要求對方跟我們通報嘛"},{"start":11623.87,"end":11625.87,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11625.13,"end":11627.13,"text":"現在就穿得整個都不知道啊"},{"start":11627.9,"end":11629.9,"text":"團仔不想說"},{"start":11629.9,"end":11631.9,"text":"我如果六月份 民進黨會去"},{"start":11633.62,"end":11635.62,"text":"出事情都調工 晚上起來"},{"start":11635.62,"end":11638.62,"text":"喔 啊其他人去就把你叩大山團"},{"start":11638.62,"end":11640.62,"text":"當然不是這樣"},{"start":11640.62,"end":11642.62,"text":"委員你這個暗行"},{"start":11642.62,"end":11644.62,"text":"你跟當事人有熟識"},{"start":11644.62,"end":11646.62,"text":"是不是我們同仁可以去"},{"start":11646.62,"end":11648.62,"text":"家庭關懷訪視"},{"start":11648.62,"end":11649.62,"text":"掌握更多的資訊"},{"start":11649.62,"end":11651.62,"text":"可以來進一步的幫忙"},{"start":11651.62,"end":11653.62,"text":"你比我更賣力 你現在把我講進去家庭訪視"},{"start":11654.67,"end":11656.67,"text":"民主黨的國籍幹部"},{"start":11656.67,"end":11658.67,"text":"你聽到沒有"},{"start":11659.41,"end":11661.41,"text":"我們是昨天下午才接到"},{"start":11662.51,"end":11664.51,"text":"我們會積極來協助這個案子"},{"start":11664.51,"end":11666.51,"text":"好啦 你要理清一下"},{"start":11666.51,"end":11668.51,"text":"市府暗行"},{"start":11668.51,"end":11670.51,"text":"而且是全國人在台中失蹤"},{"start":11670.51,"end":11672.51,"text":"失蹤我沒看到你們的通報會議"},{"start":11673.82,"end":11675.82,"text":"是"},{"start":11675.02,"end":11677.02,"text":"應該 如果是"},{"start":11677.02,"end":11679.02,"text":"昨天通報 我們這個禮拜四"},{"start":11679.02,"end":11681.02,"text":"就會把列入一個案子"},{"start":11681.02,"end":11683.02,"text":"那重點倒不是案子的增加"},{"start":11683.02,"end":11685.02,"text":"而是我們要實質的"},{"start":11685.02,"end":11687.02,"text":"幫助家屬來"},{"start":11687.02,"end":11689.02,"text":"幫他打探這個家屬"},{"start":11689.02,"end":11691.02,"text":"你們來台的來幫我們"},{"start":11691.02,"end":11693.02,"text":"當初是說家屬希望低調"},{"start":11693.02,"end":11695.02,"text":"你比較有可能都不知道"},{"start":11695.02,"end":11697.02,"text":"我是今天調工來問你"},{"start":11697.02,"end":11699.02,"text":"為什麼出事情家屬要低調"},{"start":11700.72,"end":11702.72,"text":"有幾個部分"},{"start":11702.72,"end":11704.72,"text":"對岸有可能他們的公安會通知家屬"},{"start":11704.72,"end":11706.72,"text":"不要跟你們的政府聯繫"},{"start":11706.72,"end":11708.72,"text":"如果你們跟你的政府聯繫的話"},{"start":11708.72,"end":11710.72,"text":"可能會"},{"start":11710.72,"end":11712.72,"text":"讓你們的案子更難解決"},{"start":11712.72,"end":11714.72,"text":"會這樣"},{"start":11714.72,"end":11716.72,"text":"有人這樣跟我講我是一定會被罵的"},{"start":11716.72,"end":11718.72,"text":"是啊"},{"start":11718.72,"end":11720.72,"text":"所以我們也是一直跟對岸說"},{"start":11720.72,"end":11722.72,"text":"你"},{"start":11722.72,"end":11724.72,"text":"傳遍了很多非官方的訊息"},{"start":11724.72,"end":11726.72,"text":"到處流竄"},{"start":11727.68,"end":11729.68,"text":"家屬也分不清這是詐騙的訊息"},{"start":11729.68,"end":11731.68,"text":"沒有啦我現在很嚴肅跟你說"},{"start":11731.68,"end":11733.68,"text":"兩方交流這個問題"},{"start":11733.68,"end":11735.68,"text":"大家請免來看台"},{"start":11735.68,"end":11737.68,"text":"但是"},{"start":11737.68,"end":11739.68,"text":"用非法的手段"},{"start":11739.68,"end":11741.68,"text":"欲縮到我們台灣人的人身自由"},{"start":11741.68,"end":11743.68,"text":"是"},{"start":11743.68,"end":11745.68,"text":"沒分洞派大家都要嚴重控制"},{"start":11745.68,"end":11747.68,"text":"當然"},{"start":11747.68,"end":11749.68,"text":"但是我們的人去那裡很敢反抗"},{"start":11749.68,"end":11751.68,"text":"我看有的沒的"},{"start":11751.68,"end":11753.68,"text":"要很清楚"},{"start":11753.68,"end":11755.68,"text":"你不能讓你孫子變成"},{"start":11755.68,"end":11757.68,"text":"就不必要"},{"start":11757.68,"end":11759.68,"text":"不必要去做這種"},{"start":11759.68,"end":11761.68,"text":"窮豐"},{"start":11761.68,"end":11763.68,"text":"是不是這樣"},{"start":11763.68,"end":11765.68,"text":"台大就要這樣面對"},{"start":11765.68,"end":11767.68,"text":"要清楚"},{"start":11767.2,"end":11769.2,"text":"這樣好不好"},{"start":11769.2,"end":11771.2,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11770.68,"end":11774.68,"text":"安心我希望你盡速把本席答覆"},{"start":11774.68,"end":11776.68,"text":"好不好"},{"start":11776.68,"end":11778.68,"text":"感謝你"},{"start":11788.47,"end":11790.47,"text":"好在這邊"},{"start":11790.47,"end":11792.47,"text":"先提醒一下我們與會官員"},{"start":11792.47,"end":11794.47,"text":"在詢答的時候"},{"start":11794.47,"end":11796.47,"text":"希望不要以偵查不公開為理由"},{"start":11796.47,"end":11798.47,"text":"迴避委員的質詢"},{"start":11798.47,"end":11800.47,"text":"當然偵查不公開是一致的標準"},{"start":11800.47,"end":11802.47,"text":"那大家有自由"},{"start":11802.47,"end":11804.47,"text":"但是偵查不公開應該是一致性的"},{"start":11804.47,"end":11806.47,"text":"而不是在不同的案件有不同的一個標準"},{"start":11806.47,"end":11808.47,"text":"就如同剛剛十百名夫案"},{"start":11808.47,"end":11810.47,"text":"我們的同仁"},{"start":11810.47,"end":11812.47,"text":"在詢答台上面坎坎而談"},{"start":11812.47,"end":11814.47,"text":"透露了許多"},{"start":11814.29,"end":11816.29,"text":"案件的細節"},{"start":11816.29,"end":11818.29,"text":"但對於今天主題的案件"},{"start":11818.29,"end":11820.29,"text":"卻只用偵查不公開來回應"},{"start":11820.29,"end":11822.29,"text":"我想這個是對委員會的不尊重"},{"start":11822.29,"end":11824.29,"text":"標準一致"},{"start":11824.29,"end":11826.29,"text":"希望我們的與會官員能夠尊重"},{"start":11826.29,"end":11828.29,"text":"下一位我們請蘇清全委員發言質詢"},{"start":11828.29,"end":11830.29,"text":"蘇清全蘇清全蘇清全不在"},{"start":11830.29,"end":11832.29,"text":"下一位請林茜琪委員發言質詢"},{"start":11832.29,"end":11834.29,"text":"林茜琪林茜琪林茜琪不在"},{"start":11834.94,"end":11836.94,"text":"下一位請陳培淤委員發言質詢"},{"start":11836.94,"end":11838.94,"text":"陳培淤陳培淤陳培淤"},{"start":11839.19,"end":11841.19,"text":"委員不在下一位請葉元之委員發言質詢"},{"start":11851.75,"end":11853.75,"text":"主席好,我們安景路也會租耶,謝謝"},{"start":11858.95,"end":11860.95,"text":"葉委員好,主席好"},{"start":11860.95,"end":11862.95,"text":"我想請教一下,因為最近"},{"start":11862.95,"end":11864.95,"text":"路也會常常出國"},{"start":11864.95,"end":11866.95,"text":"都要去宣傳一下兩岸政策"},{"start":11866.95,"end":11868.95,"text":"你也常常出國"},{"start":11868.95,"end":11870.95,"text":"你可以講一下頻率多少"},{"start":11870.95,"end":11872.95,"text":"我們來看一個"},{"start":11872.95,"end":11874.95,"text":"最近有引起爭議的報告"},{"start":11874.95,"end":11876.95,"text":"這是赴越南出國的"},{"start":11876.95,"end":11878.95,"text":"這是訪問越南計說明兩岸政策報告"},{"start":11878.95,"end":11880.95,"text":"像類似訪問其他國家"},{"start":11880.95,"end":11882.95,"text":"去說明兩岸政策這一種活動"},{"start":11882.95,"end":11884.95,"text":"今年總共要辦幾場"},{"start":11886.97,"end":11888.97,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我們全年"},{"start":11888.97,"end":11890.97,"text":"出國的費用不到800萬"},{"start":11890.97,"end":11892.97,"text":"總共辦幾場"},{"start":11892.97,"end":11894.97,"text":"幾場"},{"start":11894.97,"end":11896.97,"text":"目前已經出訪的"},{"start":11896.97,"end":11898.97,"text":"除了越南"},{"start":11898.97,"end":11900.97,"text":"還有一場是"},{"start":11900.97,"end":11902.97,"text":"有到日本"},{"start":11902.97,"end":11904.97,"text":"所以目前兩場,那接下來還要去哪"},{"start":11905.87,"end":11907.87,"text":"我們如果說有經費的話"},{"start":11907.87,"end":11909.87,"text":"因為很多國家"},{"start":11909.87,"end":11911.87,"text":"來邀請路委會去做"},{"start":11911.87,"end":11913.87,"text":"合作"},{"start":11913.87,"end":11915.87,"text":"包括像我們同仁"},{"start":11915.87,"end":11917.87,"text":"我們今天時間有限"},{"start":11917.87,"end":11919.87,"text":"通常是這樣子"},{"start":11919.87,"end":11921.87,"text":"如果"},{"start":11921.87,"end":11923.87,"text":"官員開始扯東扯西的時候"},{"start":11923.87,"end":11925.87,"text":"感覺就必有貓膩"},{"start":11925.87,"end":11927.87,"text":"我問的問題沒有很簡單"},{"start":11927.87,"end":11929.87,"text":"接下來還打算去幾場"},{"start":11929.87,"end":11931.87,"text":"我都還沒有開始問我接下來的問題"},{"start":11931.87,"end":11933.87,"text":"你就開始扯別的,接下來還要去幾場"},{"start":11933.87,"end":11935.87,"text":"跟委員報告,接下來我們可能會去"},{"start":11935.87,"end":11937.87,"text":"歐洲"},{"start":11937.87,"end":11939.87,"text":"德國"},{"start":11939.87,"end":11941.87,"text":"宣傳兩岸政策"},{"start":11941.87,"end":11943.87,"text":"沒有,去跟各國"},{"start":11943.87,"end":11945.87,"text":"一起合作,有關跨境鎮壓"},{"start":11945.87,"end":11947.87,"text":"我現在講的是說"},{"start":11947.87,"end":11949.87,"text":"要去訪問其他國家"},{"start":11949.87,"end":11951.87,"text":"去說明兩岸政策的活動還有幾場"},{"start":11953.44,"end":11955.44,"text":"目前比較兩個"},{"start":11955.44,"end":11957.44,"text":"德國跟美國"},{"start":11957.44,"end":11959.44,"text":"那去"},{"start":11959.44,"end":11961.44,"text":"我是不反對"},{"start":11961.44,"end":11963.44,"text":"但是我真的希望去有一定的效益"},{"start":11963.44,"end":11965.44,"text":"然後我也希望去"},{"start":11965.44,"end":11967.44,"text":"你回來這個出國報告"},{"start":11967.44,"end":11969.44,"text":"我覺得要好好寫"},{"start":11969.44,"end":11971.44,"text":"因為這個報告都上網公開的"},{"start":11971.44,"end":11973.44,"text":"那同時間大家認為報告"},{"start":11973.44,"end":11975.44,"text":"其實除了路委會之外"},{"start":11975.44,"end":11977.44,"text":"大家對僑委會的報告也覺得寫得很爛"},{"start":11977.44,"end":11979.44,"text":"那我有看到僑委會主委"},{"start":11979.44,"end":11981.44,"text":"徐家清,當然跟你無關,是你的同僚"},{"start":11981.44,"end":11983.44,"text":"他回應是說,有機密"},{"start":11983.44,"end":11985.44,"text":"不然是要給中共看嗎"},{"start":11985.44,"end":11987.44,"text":"這種回答實在是令人覺得"},{"start":11987.44,"end":11989.44,"text":"很可笑"},{"start":11989.44,"end":11991.44,"text":"那就算不是要給中共看"},{"start":11991.44,"end":11993.44,"text":"你也不要給其他國家笑"},{"start":11993.44,"end":11995.44,"text":"你也稍微寫得有點水準"},{"start":11995.44,"end":11997.44,"text":"你就算有一個不能夠"},{"start":11997.44,"end":11999.44,"text":"公開的非機密版"},{"start":11999.44,"end":12001.44,"text":"但是也要寫得有水準"},{"start":12001.44,"end":12003.44,"text":"有水準跟看是兩回事"},{"start":12003.44,"end":12005.44,"text":"所以我不太能接受"},{"start":12005.44,"end":12007.44,"text":"這個徐家清的說法"},{"start":12007.44,"end":12009.44,"text":"因為今天不是質詢他"},{"start":12009.44,"end":12011.44,"text":"我希望路委會以後有類似的報告"},{"start":12011.44,"end":12013.44,"text":"你有機密不用公開"},{"start":12013.44,"end":12015.44,"text":"但你公開的東西就是要有水準"},{"start":12015.44,"end":12017.44,"text":"因為這個代表國家的文書"},{"start":12017.44,"end":12019.44,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":12019.13,"end":12021.13,"text":"就針對這一份訪問越南的報告"},{"start":12022.17,"end":12024.17,"text":"我自己覺得有幾件事情"},{"start":12024.17,"end":12026.17,"text":"我是覺得"},{"start":12026.17,"end":12028.17,"text":"還蠻怪的"},{"start":12029.27,"end":12031.27,"text":"這個在第二頁的部分"},{"start":12031.27,"end":12033.27,"text":"我是沒秀出來的"},{"start":12033.27,"end":12035.27,"text":"裡面有提到副主委"},{"start":12035.27,"end":12037.27,"text":"沈友中"},{"start":12035.47,"end":12037.47,"text":"他訪問了很多越南的智庫"},{"start":12038.45,"end":12041.45,"text":"然後他在跟這個智庫溝通的過程當中"},{"start":12041.45,"end":12044.45,"text":"當然有說明政府致力於維持現狀"},{"start":12044.45,"end":12046.45,"text":"但是他說"},{"start":12046.45,"end":12048.45,"text":"他跟越南的智庫呼籲北京當局"},{"start":12048.45,"end":12050.45,"text":"要跟我民選政府對話"},{"start":12051.06,"end":12053.06,"text":"我是不太懂啊"},{"start":12052.51,"end":12054.51,"text":"路委會跑去越南"},{"start":12054.51,"end":12056.51,"text":"然後跟越南的智庫去呼籲北京跟我們對話幹嘛"},{"start":12057.71,"end":12059.71,"text":"越南裡面是有北京的官方代表"},{"start":12062.7,"end":12064.7,"text":"你要呼籲你跑到越南去跟越南智庫呼籲幹嘛"},{"start":12066.74,"end":12068.74,"text":"這種東西寫出來就是讓人家覺得"},{"start":12068.74,"end":12070.74,"text":"你是到底有去沒去你到底是去幹嘛"},{"start":12070.74,"end":12072.74,"text":"你去呼籲北京"},{"start":12072.74,"end":12074.74,"text":"你去越南智庫呼籲北京跟我們對話"},{"start":12077.54,"end":12079.54,"text":"主委你要不要去問一下副主委到底去幹嘛"},{"start":12079.54,"end":12081.54,"text":"我清楚喔"},{"start":12081.54,"end":12083.54,"text":"委員這樣好不好"},{"start":12083.54,"end":12085.54,"text":"我們那個"},{"start":12085.54,"end":12087.54,"text":"我們的參訪很多的細部"},{"start":12087.54,"end":12089.54,"text":"也不方便完全揭露"},{"start":12089.54,"end":12091.54,"text":"我剛剛有講"},{"start":12091.54,"end":12093.54,"text":"不方便揭露不要揭露"},{"start":12093.54,"end":12095.54,"text":"但你揭露不能有水準嘛"},{"start":12095.54,"end":12097.54,"text":"你讓其他國家看到我們的路委會"},{"start":12097.54,"end":12099.54,"text":"跑到越南去跟越南智庫呼籲北京"},{"start":12099.54,"end":12101.54,"text":"跟我們對話"},{"start":12101.75,"end":12103.75,"text":"這就沒水準嘛"},{"start":12103.75,"end":12105.75,"text":"以後未來這個摘要版"},{"start":12105.75,"end":12107.75,"text":"我們一定配合委員說要有水準"},{"start":12107.75,"end":12109.75,"text":"對啊"},{"start":12109.75,"end":12111.75,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12111.75,"end":12113.75,"text":"第二個這是心得與建議"},{"start":12113.75,"end":12115.75,"text":"這個心得與建議有寫跟沒寫一樣"},{"start":12115.75,"end":12117.75,"text":"第一點"},{"start":12117.75,"end":12119.75,"text":"越南追求獨立自主外交"},{"start":12119.75,"end":12121.75,"text":"應爭取越方深化與台合作"},{"start":12121.75,"end":12123.75,"text":"不然呢"},{"start":12124.4,"end":12126.4,"text":"不然我們不要跟他爭取合作喔"},{"start":12127.44,"end":12129.44,"text":"難道你的心得回來會講說"},{"start":12129.44,"end":12131.44,"text":"越南不怎麼樣我們不要跟他合作嗎"},{"start":12132.41,"end":12136.41,"text":"這個心得是有去跟沒去都可以得到的心得"},{"start":12136.41,"end":12138.41,"text":"那大家當然就會質疑說你去沒有意義嘛"},{"start":12138.41,"end":12140.41,"text":"第二個更好笑"},{"start":12140.41,"end":12142.41,"text":"這個就跟主委好好請教一下"},{"start":12142.41,"end":12144.41,"text":"現在我們的兩岸政策到底是什麼"},{"start":12144.41,"end":12146.41,"text":"第二點叫做建議加強台越中智庫交流"},{"start":12146.41,"end":12148.41,"text":"那我不懂啊"},{"start":12148.41,"end":12150.41,"text":"民進黨不是很多人都在講說"},{"start":12150.41,"end":12152.41,"text":"兩岸任何交流都統戰嗎"},{"start":12152.41,"end":12154.41,"text":"那為什麼在路委會的報告裡面"},{"start":12154.41,"end":12156.41,"text":"會講說要建議台越中"},{"start":12157.44,"end":12159.44,"text":"三方交流"},{"start":12159.38,"end":12161.38,"text":"那到底是要交流還是不要交流"},{"start":12161.38,"end":12163.38,"text":"公委員報告事實上我們在"},{"start":12163.38,"end":12165.38,"text":"對等尊嚴相互尊重"},{"start":12165.38,"end":12167.38,"text":"包括對岸的這些學者"},{"start":12167.38,"end":12169.38,"text":"智庫我們都願意跟他交流"},{"start":12171.01,"end":12173.01,"text":"我們始終都沒有停掉"},{"start":12173.01,"end":12175.01,"text":"那這裡只是"},{"start":12175.01,"end":12177.01,"text":"對越南也非常關注兩岸關係"},{"start":12177.01,"end":12179.01,"text":"還有"},{"start":12179.01,"end":12181.01,"text":"南海的一些動態的問題"},{"start":12181.01,"end":12183.01,"text":"特別是"},{"start":12183.01,"end":12185.01,"text":"中國大陸積極的"},{"start":12185.01,"end":12187.01,"text":"對南海地區"},{"start":12187.01,"end":12189.01,"text":"的各種的擴張"},{"start":12189.01,"end":12191.01,"text":"巡航"},{"start":12191.01,"end":12193.01,"text":"這也造成周遭國家的一些風險"},{"start":12193.01,"end":12195.01,"text":"所以他們也"},{"start":12195.01,"end":12197.01,"text":"我們都知道"},{"start":12197.01,"end":12199.01,"text":"台灣的經濟"},{"start":12199.01,"end":12201.01,"text":"台越中制會交"},{"start":12201.01,"end":12203.01,"text":"那你要怎麼促成這件事情"},{"start":12203.01,"end":12205.01,"text":"然後你是跟誰建議"},{"start":12205.01,"end":12207.01,"text":"你路委會參訪完"},{"start":12207.01,"end":12209.01,"text":"有了這個心得"},{"start":12209.01,"end":12211.01,"text":"你不是路人你也不是一般人"},{"start":12211.01,"end":12213.01,"text":"你是政府官方代表"},{"start":12213.01,"end":12215.01,"text":"所以你要去建議誰"},{"start":12212.45,"end":12214.45,"text":"去加強台越中"},{"start":12214.45,"end":12216.45,"text":"然後你要建議跟哪一個"},{"start":12216.45,"end":12218.45,"text":"中國大陸的智庫交流"},{"start":12218.45,"end":12220.45,"text":"因為你是官方耶"},{"start":12220.45,"end":12222.45,"text":"你是建議誰嘛你是建議賴清德總統"},{"start":12222.45,"end":12224.45,"text":"還是卓文泰院長"},{"start":12224.45,"end":12226.45,"text":"跟委員報告我們那個"},{"start":12226.45,"end":12228.45,"text":"智庫交流還有很多的學者"},{"start":12228.45,"end":12230.45,"text":"對你是建議誰嘛你現在回來"},{"start":12230.45,"end":12232.45,"text":"他有這個心得這個富足的有這個心得"},{"start":12232.45,"end":12234.45,"text":"覺得要跟台越中智庫交流"},{"start":12234.45,"end":12236.45,"text":"那他是建議誰"},{"start":12236.45,"end":12238.45,"text":"他是建議賴清德總統嗎"},{"start":12238.45,"end":12240.45,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12239.01,"end":12241.01,"text":"這個我們省副主委"},{"start":12241.01,"end":12243.01,"text":"是帶著一群學者去"},{"start":12243.01,"end":12245.01,"text":"不是他一個人"},{"start":12244.4,"end":12246.4,"text":"這個報告是路委會寫的嘛"},{"start":12246.4,"end":12248.4,"text":"所以說"},{"start":12248.4,"end":12250.4,"text":"大家都維持體檢能力都沒有那麼差啦"},{"start":12250.4,"end":12252.4,"text":"他去參訪回來"},{"start":12252.4,"end":12254.4,"text":"得到一個心得說要建議"},{"start":12254.4,"end":12256.4,"text":"要跟中國大陸的智庫跟越南三方多交流嘛"},{"start":12256.4,"end":12258.4,"text":"那他"},{"start":12258.4,"end":12260.4,"text":"你路委會你一定往上建議嘛"},{"start":12260.4,"end":12262.4,"text":"那你建議卓東泰嘛還是建議賴總統"},{"start":12262.4,"end":12264.4,"text":"我們都會"},{"start":12264.4,"end":12266.4,"text":"那你建議我們建議在台灣的智庫"},{"start":12266.4,"end":12268.4,"text":"建議他們跟越南多交流"},{"start":12268.4,"end":12270.4,"text":"那你是建議"},{"start":12270.4,"end":12272.4,"text":"跟中國大陸哪個智庫交流比較不會有統戰的危機"},{"start":12272.4,"end":12274.4,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12274.4,"end":12276.4,"text":"只要是對等尊嚴相互尊重"},{"start":12276.4,"end":12278.4,"text":"兩邊帶有理性的人"},{"start":12278.4,"end":12280.4,"text":"應該坐下來好好聊"},{"start":12280.4,"end":12282.4,"text":"是哪些嘛不要講空話嘛"},{"start":12282.4,"end":12284.4,"text":"我想我們過去"},{"start":12284.4,"end":12286.4,"text":"跟中國大陸"},{"start":12286.4,"end":12288.4,"text":"這我了解了啦"},{"start":12288.4,"end":12290.4,"text":"就代表說這個有去沒去"},{"start":12290.4,"end":12292.4,"text":"真的一樣啦"},{"start":12292.4,"end":12294.4,"text":"你一定都講不清楚"},{"start":12294.4,"end":12296.4,"text":"第一個"},{"start":12296.4,"end":12298.4,"text":"你要給我時間講"},{"start":12298.4,"end":12300.4,"text":"你已經講很久了啦"},{"start":12300.4,"end":12302.4,"text":"我請那個沈副主委去跟你講"},{"start":12302.4,"end":12304.4,"text":"我都已經知道你要講什麼了嘛"},{"start":12304.4,"end":12306.4,"text":"我們是建議"},{"start":12306.4,"end":12308.4,"text":"你一定這樣講啦因為我聽很多啊"},{"start":12308.4,"end":12310.4,"text":"你一定是建議說我們當然建議兩岸多交流"},{"start":12310.4,"end":12312.4,"text":"但是要在對等尊嚴的情況下交流啊"},{"start":12312.4,"end":12314.4,"text":"然後咧"},{"start":12314.4,"end":12316.4,"text":"但是我們還是建議交流可是現在對等尊嚴"},{"start":12316.4,"end":12318.4,"text":"但是現在就不對等尊嚴所以就沒辦法交流"},{"start":12318.4,"end":12320.4,"text":"就這意思繞圈圈"},{"start":12320.4,"end":12322.4,"text":"我現在質疑的是說"},{"start":12322.4,"end":12324.4,"text":"如果你去交流回來你去參訪回來"},{"start":12324.4,"end":12326.4,"text":"得到這個繞圈圈的建議跟心得"},{"start":12326.4,"end":12328.4,"text":"那你去到底幹嘛嘛"},{"start":12328.4,"end":12330.4,"text":"我們就跟交流人來進行"},{"start":12330.4,"end":12332.4,"text":"我們的學術單位也在跟中國大陸做好"},{"start":12332.4,"end":12334.4,"text":"我們都有掌握"},{"start":12334.46,"end":12336.46,"text":"那這個兩個建議"},{"start":12336.46,"end":12338.46,"text":"第一個"},{"start":12337.93,"end":12339.93,"text":"要去要有效益"},{"start":12339.93,"end":12341.93,"text":"第二個報告"},{"start":12341.17,"end":12343.17,"text":"上網的不要被人家看到"},{"start":12343.17,"end":12345.17,"text":"很怪"},{"start":12345.17,"end":12347.17,"text":"然後再來就是希望有一個完整版的"},{"start":12347.17,"end":12349.17,"text":"你不要公開"},{"start":12349.17,"end":12351.17,"text":"因為你有出去要有一個完整版嘛"},{"start":12351.17,"end":12353.17,"text":"那如果有些委員他對於完整版"},{"start":12353.17,"end":12355.17,"text":"這個想要監督"},{"start":12355.17,"end":12357.17,"text":"那希望可以提供"},{"start":12357.17,"end":12359.17,"text":"那還有一個就是說當然你如果說機密"},{"start":12359.17,"end":12361.17,"text":"那你可以開機密會議可是不能夠像"},{"start":12361.17,"end":12363.17,"text":"徐家清那樣子就是說"},{"start":12363.17,"end":12365.17,"text":"我寫了Line怎麼樣因為我不想被中共看啊"},{"start":12365.17,"end":12367.17,"text":"我不能接受政府機關"},{"start":12367.17,"end":12369.17,"text":"官員用這種方式來掩蓋"},{"start":12369.17,"end":12371.17,"text":"就越南的參訪案啦"},{"start":12371.17,"end":12373.17,"text":"雖然公布只有三頁事實上"},{"start":12373.17,"end":12375.17,"text":"真正的報告有三十幾頁"},{"start":12375.17,"end":12377.17,"text":"有一萬三千多字非常的豐富"},{"start":12377.17,"end":12379.17,"text":"那我也看如果有機會的話"},{"start":12379.17,"end":12381.17,"text":"我請陳柏惟啊"},{"start":12381.17,"end":12383.17,"text":"那你不要設計機密"},{"start":12383.17,"end":12385.17,"text":"我想如果說那麼豐富的話上網的部分"},{"start":12385.17,"end":12387.17,"text":"應該有一些沒有機密的部分"},{"start":12387.17,"end":12389.17,"text":"應該也蠻豐富的"},{"start":12389.17,"end":12391.17,"text":"這個好像有點太應付"},{"start":12391.17,"end":12393.17,"text":"那剛剛"},{"start":12393.17,"end":12395.17,"text":"主席可不可以再給我一點時間"},{"start":12395.17,"end":12397.17,"text":"因為剛剛主委講到一個話題我也蠻有興趣"},{"start":12397.17,"end":12399.17,"text":"石板明夫嗎"},{"start":12399.17,"end":12401.17,"text":"是其他"},{"start":12401.17,"end":12403.17,"text":"剛剛你不是講石板明夫你講的嗎"},{"start":12403.17,"end":12405.17,"text":"跨境鎮壓被你講了嗎"},{"start":12405.17,"end":12407.17,"text":"我有講過跨境鎮壓"},{"start":12407.17,"end":12409.17,"text":"我想跟你請教一下"},{"start":12409.17,"end":12411.17,"text":"石板明夫這個事情如果是"},{"start":12411.17,"end":12413.17,"text":"跨境鎮壓我們全部都譴責"},{"start":12413.17,"end":12415.17,"text":"如果是跨境鎮壓"},{"start":12415.17,"end":12417.17,"text":"但是現在到底是根據什麼"},{"start":12417.17,"end":12419.17,"text":"認為一定是跨境鎮壓"},{"start":12419.17,"end":12421.17,"text":"跨境鎮壓就是說習近平派人來的嘛"},{"start":12421.17,"end":12423.17,"text":"那我有看到"},{"start":12423.17,"end":12425.17,"text":"這個新聞有個報導"},{"start":12425.17,"end":12427.17,"text":"本來石板明夫要去的那個"},{"start":12427.17,"end":12429.17,"text":"演講會啊"},{"start":12429.17,"end":12431.17,"text":"蕭美琴副總統本來也要去"},{"start":12431.66,"end":12433.66,"text":"然後後來蕭美琴副總統後來沒去"},{"start":12433.66,"end":12435.66,"text":"這是新聞報導"},{"start":12435.66,"end":12437.66,"text":"我有看到總統府也沒有出來否認"},{"start":12437.66,"end":12439.66,"text":"應該是這樣"},{"start":12439.81,"end":12441.81,"text":"然後這個民進黨立委"},{"start":12441.97,"end":12443.97,"text":"我就不要說哪一位了"},{"start":12443.97,"end":12445.97,"text":"還有一些綠營的名嘴就是說"},{"start":12445.97,"end":12447.97,"text":"那就對了啦為什麼呢"},{"start":12447.97,"end":12449.97,"text":"因為本來啊"},{"start":12449.97,"end":12451.97,"text":"這個對岸是派六個人來"},{"start":12451.97,"end":12453.97,"text":"然後來了之後呢"},{"start":12453.97,"end":12455.97,"text":"後來離開了四個人"},{"start":12455.97,"end":12457.97,"text":"最後還留下一個打人的"},{"start":12457.97,"end":12459.97,"text":"叫廖港發加上一個把風的"},{"start":12459.97,"end":12461.97,"text":"只留兩個這就說明了"},{"start":12463.4,"end":12465.4,"text":"原來那六個可能是衝著蕭美琴副總統來的"},{"start":12465.4,"end":12467.4,"text":"所以六個"},{"start":12467.4,"end":12469.4,"text":"後來得知副總統不來之後呢"},{"start":12469.4,"end":12471.4,"text":"就離開了四個只留下一個打石板明夫"},{"start":12472.36,"end":12474.36,"text":"所以這一定是跨境鎮壓"},{"start":12474.36,"end":12476.36,"text":"但我就覺得這很不合理啦"},{"start":12476.36,"end":12478.36,"text":"這個也請主委判斷一下"},{"start":12478.6,"end":12480.6,"text":"所以我們副總統維安這麼差喔"},{"start":12481.74,"end":12483.74,"text":"只要六個人就可以打得到我們副總統"},{"start":12483.74,"end":12485.74,"text":"那這六個是人都武林高手喔"},{"start":12486.92,"end":12488.92,"text":"是詹無忌加上白眉英王"},{"start":12488.92,"end":12490.92,"text":"紫山龍王加上楊過跟這個"},{"start":12490.92,"end":12492.92,"text":"郭靖是不是啊"},{"start":12492.96,"end":12494.96,"text":"還是最強老爸還是那個"},{"start":12494.96,"end":12496.96,"text":"還是洛基"},{"start":12497.45,"end":12499.45,"text":"就是說這個情節讓我看到都覺得很荒謬"},{"start":12501.84,"end":12503.84,"text":"我覺得跨境鎮壓我先說態度"},{"start":12503.84,"end":12505.84,"text":"如果跨境鎮壓全台灣都不能接受"},{"start":12505.84,"end":12507.84,"text":"我相信廖千祥也不能接受"},{"start":12508.44,"end":12510.44,"text":"大家不能接受可是"},{"start":12510.44,"end":12512.44,"text":"事實是什麼我覺得大家要"},{"start":12512.44,"end":12514.44,"text":"把它說明清楚不是用推論"},{"start":12514.44,"end":12516.44,"text":"來的六個就是要對我們副總統怎麼樣"},{"start":12517.37,"end":12519.37,"text":"這六個是怎樣"},{"start":12519.37,"end":12521.37,"text":"都是盛懷絕技武林高手喔"},{"start":12521.37,"end":12523.37,"text":"還是我們副總統維安那麼差"},{"start":12523.37,"end":12525.37,"text":"不管是從哪一個點來看都有問題嘛"},{"start":12525.37,"end":12527.37,"text":"所以你認為現在"},{"start":12527.37,"end":12529.37,"text":"哪一些很明確的證據"},{"start":12529.37,"end":12531.37,"text":"是說明的就石板明夫"},{"start":12531.37,"end":12533.37,"text":"真的是習近平派來打的"},{"start":12534.68,"end":12536.68,"text":"各位報告我們有一些港人"},{"start":12536.68,"end":12538.68,"text":"也曾經遭受跨境鎮壓"},{"start":12538.68,"end":12540.68,"text":"像湯偉雄兩次被迫擊"},{"start":12540.68,"end":12542.68,"text":"我們都有去聊一題案子"},{"start":12542.68,"end":12544.68,"text":"那跟這個石板明夫先生"},{"start":12544.68,"end":12546.68,"text":"這個案子有非常接近"},{"start":12546.68,"end":12548.68,"text":"就是打完他就跑"},{"start":12549.16,"end":12551.16,"text":"況且打完就跑就一定是"},{"start":12551.16,"end":12553.16,"text":"習近平派來的喔"},{"start":12553.16,"end":12555.16,"text":"另外一方面我們可以看到"},{"start":12555.16,"end":12557.16,"text":"他已經有集團化事先部署"},{"start":12557.16,"end":12559.16,"text":"而且目前"},{"start":12559.16,"end":12561.16,"text":"地檢署也在"},{"start":12561.16,"end":12563.16,"text":"掌握他的資訊他還跟"},{"start":12563.16,"end":12565.16,"text":"這個回報"},{"start":12565.16,"end":12567.16,"text":"說任務完成"},{"start":12567.16,"end":12569.16,"text":"你說他跟習近平回報"},{"start":12569.16,"end":12571.16,"text":"然後我們有去關切石板明夫"},{"start":12571.16,"end":12573.16,"text":"我親自有去訪問石板明夫"},{"start":12573.16,"end":12575.16,"text":"那只要是"},{"start":12575.16,"end":12577.16,"text":"跨境鎮壓我們都會去關切"},{"start":12577.16,"end":12579.16,"text":"那石板明夫告訴我"},{"start":12580.26,"end":12582.26,"text":"這個歹徒遇到他說"},{"start":12582.87,"end":12584.87,"text":"你是不是石板明夫"},{"start":12584.65,"end":12586.65,"text":"顯然他也不認識石板明夫"},{"start":12586.65,"end":12588.65,"text":"然後是石板先生嗎"},{"start":12588.65,"end":12590.65,"text":"然後就動手了"},{"start":12590.65,"end":12592.65,"text":"他無冤無仇"},{"start":12592.65,"end":12594.65,"text":"沒有無冤冤"},{"start":12594.65,"end":12596.65,"text":"那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":12596.65,"end":12598.65,"text":"所以這些機制看起來"},{"start":12598.65,"end":12600.65,"text":"他應該很像"},{"start":12600.65,"end":12602.65,"text":"習近平派打他的"},{"start":12602.65,"end":12604.65,"text":"跟湯偉雄的案子"},{"start":12604.65,"end":12606.65,"text":"有點接近"},{"start":12606.65,"end":12608.65,"text":"那麼當然我們"},{"start":12608.65,"end":12610.65,"text":"這個事情進入"},{"start":12610.65,"end":12612.65,"text":"整個司法系統"},{"start":12612.65,"end":12614.65,"text":"因為我們知道的部分"},{"start":12614.65,"end":12616.65,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12616.65,"end":12618.65,"text":"如果這是習近平派來的跨境鎮壓"},{"start":12618.65,"end":12620.65,"text":"我一定譴責"},{"start":12620.64,"end":12622.64,"text":"但是預謀"},{"start":12622.64,"end":12624.64,"text":"到底是不是我覺得"},{"start":12624.64,"end":12626.64,"text":"我不知道因為我2019被民進黨騙過"},{"start":12626.64,"end":12628.64,"text":"那時候有一個王立強"},{"start":12629.7,"end":12631.7,"text":"跑到澳洲去接受訪問"},{"start":12631.7,"end":12633.7,"text":"說他是大陸007"},{"start":12633.7,"end":12635.7,"text":"花2000萬介入韓國瑜的選舉"},{"start":12635.7,"end":12637.7,"text":"幫韓國瑜勝選"},{"start":12637.7,"end":12639.7,"text":"後來當時民進黨政府說太嚴重了"},{"start":12639.7,"end":12641.7,"text":"怎麼會發生這樣的事情"},{"start":12641.7,"end":12643.7,"text":"國安事件趕快派高層去澳洲了解"},{"start":12643.39,"end":12645.39,"text":"結果了解完之後"},{"start":12645.39,"end":12647.39,"text":"又一個相親夫婦"},{"start":12647.39,"end":12649.39,"text":"又把相親夫婦給抓了"},{"start":12648,"end":12650,"text":"結果幾年後"},{"start":12649.5,"end":12651.5,"text":"這個王立強被證明是個詐騙犯"},{"start":12652.42,"end":12654.42,"text":"被澳洲遣返"},{"start":12654.42,"end":12656.42,"text":"就驅逐出境"},{"start":12656.42,"end":12658.42,"text":"相親夫婦被扣留在台灣好幾年"},{"start":12658.42,"end":12660.42,"text":"也出境了"},{"start":12660.42,"end":12662.42,"text":"所以我覺得弱勢的話"},{"start":12662.42,"end":12664.42,"text":"我很生氣"},{"start":12664.42,"end":12666.42,"text":"跟你們一樣"},{"start":12666.42,"end":12668.42,"text":"我跟大家一樣生氣"},{"start":12668.42,"end":12670.42,"text":"但是是不是"},{"start":12670.42,"end":12672.42,"text":"因為民進黨以前操作過"},{"start":12672.42,"end":12674.42,"text":"所以我會講說都聽將你的判斷"},{"start":12674.42,"end":12676.42,"text":"讓大家了解一下"},{"start":12676.42,"end":12678.42,"text":"會不會又是王立強事件的翻版"},{"start":12678.42,"end":12680.42,"text":"所以謝謝主委你的說明"},{"start":12683.13,"end":12685.13,"text":"好我們下一位請翁曉玲委員發言質詢"},{"start":12691.01,"end":12693.01,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":12693.01,"end":12695.01,"text":"這邊有請邱主委"},{"start":12701.66,"end":12703.66,"text":"邱主委好"},{"start":12703.66,"end":12705.66,"text":"我剛剛聽到這個議員"},{"start":12705.66,"end":12707.66,"text":"也在關心你們的出國報告"},{"start":12707.66,"end":12709.66,"text":"這就讓我想起了"},{"start":12709.66,"end":12711.66,"text":"其實在這次預算審查裡面"},{"start":12711.66,"end":12713.66,"text":"我也發現蠻多的機關"},{"start":12713.66,"end":12715.66,"text":"像是國安會"},{"start":12715.66,"end":12717.66,"text":"還有現在有個陸委會"},{"start":12717.66,"end":12719.66,"text":"還有一些部會機關"},{"start":12719.66,"end":12721.66,"text":"都是打著"},{"start":12721.66,"end":12723.66,"text":"有國安之由"},{"start":12723.66,"end":12725.66,"text":"或是說這是機密的這個文件"},{"start":12725.66,"end":12727.66,"text":"所以都不方便揭露"},{"start":12727.66,"end":12729.66,"text":"我要再次強調"},{"start":12729.66,"end":12731.66,"text":"現在是用公務機關的預算"},{"start":12733.26,"end":12735.26,"text":"去出國"},{"start":12735.26,"end":12737.26,"text":"又不是有提這個機密預算來審查"},{"start":12737.26,"end":12743.26,"text":"所以所有的出國報告都應該要公開揭露"},{"start":12744,"end":12746,"text":"都應該要公開揭露"},{"start":12746,"end":12748,"text":"而不是只是草率的"},{"start":12748,"end":12750,"text":"就是拿一份這個報告"},{"start":12750,"end":12752,"text":"給關心的委員看一看"},{"start":12752,"end":12754,"text":"這不符合我們立法委員"},{"start":12754,"end":12756,"text":"監督行政機關的"},{"start":12756,"end":12758,"text":"一個情況"},{"start":12758,"end":12760,"text":"所以我這邊要提醒陸委會"},{"start":12760,"end":12762,"text":"就是之後你們所有"},{"start":12762,"end":12764,"text":"出國報告都應該要公開揭露"},{"start":12764,"end":12766,"text":"跟委員報告我們這一點做不到"},{"start":12766,"end":12768,"text":"因為我們陸委會"},{"start":12768,"end":12770,"text":"你們做不到的話"},{"start":12770,"end":12772,"text":"涉及太多機密的"},{"start":12772,"end":12774,"text":"各位我要講你們做不到"},{"start":12774,"end":12776,"text":"我也尊重但是就開秘密會議"},{"start":12776,"end":12778,"text":"提機密預算"},{"start":12778,"end":12780,"text":"如果你沒有開秘密會議"},{"start":12780,"end":12782,"text":"沒有提機密預算"},{"start":12782,"end":12784,"text":"這就是你們失職你們不願意接受立法委員的監督"},{"start":12784.58,"end":12786.58,"text":"我們很願意接受立法委員監督"},{"start":12786.58,"end":12788.58,"text":"我們也願意"},{"start":12788.58,"end":12790.58,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12790.58,"end":12792.58,"text":"我們每個出國"},{"start":12792.58,"end":12794.58,"text":"我們的完全版的資料"},{"start":12794.58,"end":12796.58,"text":"都可以跟委員做說明"},{"start":12796.58,"end":12798.58,"text":"但是要恢復國家安全機密的前提下"},{"start":12798.58,"end":12800.58,"text":"我希望能夠跟所有的內政委員會"},{"start":12800.58,"end":12802.58,"text":"還有我們委員們來提供你們的出國報告"},{"start":12802.58,"end":12804.58,"text":"你們用密件送也可以"},{"start":12804.58,"end":12806.58,"text":"但是不能夠以此來作為"},{"start":12806.58,"end":12808.58,"text":"這個規避"},{"start":12808.58,"end":12810.58,"text":"因為我們就是整部出國"},{"start":12810.58,"end":12812.58,"text":"政府負責任的"},{"start":12812.58,"end":12814.58,"text":"因為本席"},{"start":12814.58,"end":12816.58,"text":"最近接受到很多"},{"start":12816.58,"end":12818.58,"text":"小資公教人員的陳情"},{"start":12818.58,"end":12820.58,"text":"他們反應說"},{"start":12820.58,"end":12822.58,"text":"現在這個陸委會"},{"start":12822.58,"end":12824.58,"text":"近來大幅強化"},{"start":12824.58,"end":12826.58,"text":"公教人員"},{"start":12826.58,"end":12828.58,"text":"赴鹿港澳的管理措施"},{"start":12828.58,"end":12830.58,"text":"然後要求公教人員"},{"start":12830.58,"end":12832.58,"text":"不論是因公因私"},{"start":12832.58,"end":12834.58,"text":"或者是指示經由"},{"start":12834.58,"end":12836.58,"text":"中國大陸的機場過境轉機"},{"start":12836.58,"end":12838.58,"text":"都必須要事前申請事後通報"},{"start":12838.58,"end":12840.58,"text":"如果沒有一規定的話"},{"start":12840.58,"end":12842.58,"text":"可能還會面臨到行政懲處"},{"start":12842.58,"end":12844.58,"text":"或者是有其他不利的處分"},{"start":12846.68,"end":12848.68,"text":"那本席想講的是"},{"start":12848.68,"end":12850.68,"text":"真的我們有不少的"},{"start":12850.68,"end":12852.68,"text":"小資族的公教人員"},{"start":12852.68,"end":12854.68,"text":"他們不過只是為了想要節省機票錢"},{"start":12854.68,"end":12856.68,"text":"所以也許"},{"start":12856.68,"end":12858.68,"text":"通過在北京"},{"start":12858.68,"end":12860.68,"text":"過境機場轉機或是上海"},{"start":12860.68,"end":12862.68,"text":"可是只是轉機"},{"start":12862.68,"end":12864.68,"text":"連入境都沒有入境"},{"start":12864.68,"end":12866.68,"text":"就要求人家要申報"},{"start":12866.68,"end":12868.68,"text":"但是像近期放暑假"},{"start":12868.68,"end":12870.68,"text":"不少的公教人員"},{"start":12870.68,"end":12872.68,"text":"想帶著小朋友"},{"start":12872.68,"end":12874.68,"text":"然後家人去港澳玩"},{"start":12874.68,"end":12876.68,"text":"上海也有迪士尼"},{"start":12876.68,"end":12878.68,"text":"這種私人行程"},{"start":12878.68,"end":12880.68,"text":"而且他又不是高職等"},{"start":12880.68,"end":12882.68,"text":"我們現在兩岸條例裡面"},{"start":12882.68,"end":12884.68,"text":"是有規定就是"},{"start":12884.68,"end":12886.68,"text":"實質等以上的或是警政"},{"start":12886.68,"end":12888.68,"text":"職等是四階以上的人員"},{"start":12888.68,"end":12890.68,"text":"才要受到管制"},{"start":12890.68,"end":12892.68,"text":"如果是實質等"},{"start":12892.68,"end":12894.68,"text":"以及警監四階以下"},{"start":12894.68,"end":12896.68,"text":"未涉及國家安全利益"},{"start":12896.68,"end":12898.68,"text":"或機密的公務人員"},{"start":12898.68,"end":12900.68,"text":"以及警察人員"},{"start":12900.68,"end":12902.68,"text":"教育人員等等"},{"start":12902.68,"end":12904.68,"text":"是不會受到管制的"},{"start":12904.68,"end":12906.68,"text":"可是現在"}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共同打擊犯罪與司法互助協議"},{"start":13306,"end":13308,"text":"第12條"},{"start":13308,"end":13310,"text":"明文規定"},{"start":13310,"end":13312,"text":"兩岸的人員"},{"start":13312,"end":13314,"text":"在對方的地區內"},{"start":13314,"end":13316,"text":"如果任何狀況"},{"start":13316,"end":13318,"text":"神身自由受到限制"},{"start":13318,"end":13320,"text":"雙方要立即通報"},{"start":13320,"end":13322,"text":"即使他是詐欺犯毒走私"},{"start":13322,"end":13324,"text":"任何的事件"},{"start":13324,"end":13326,"text":"都要及時通報"},{"start":13326,"end":13328,"text":"所以說今天問題出在哪裡"},{"start":13328,"end":13330,"text":"出在哪裡"},{"start":13329.73,"end":13331.73,"text":"對岸片面不按照"},{"start":13331.73,"end":13333.73,"text":"兩會共同協議來執行"},{"start":13333.73,"end":13335.73,"text":"所以一切都是回到軌道"},{"start":13335.73,"end":13337.73,"text":"就是他們按照當初簽訂協議"},{"start":13337.73,"end":13339.73,"text":"來通報"},{"start":13339.73,"end":13341.73,"text":"我們所有事務的掌握很清楚"},{"start":13341.73,"end":13343.73,"text":"我想這個兩岸的交流"},{"start":13343.73,"end":13345.73,"text":"要互相"},{"start":13345.73,"end":13347.73,"text":"為什麼現在對岸人員"},{"start":13347.73,"end":13349.73,"text":"對於交流"},{"start":13349.73,"end":13351.73,"text":"或是你們就問已讀不回"},{"start":13351.73,"end":13353.73,"text":"也不能這樣解讀"},{"start":13353.73,"end":13355.73,"text":"好像是我們的錯"},{"start":13355.73,"end":13357.73,"text":"不是我們的錯"},{"start":13357.73,"end":13359.73,"text":"所以兩岸的交流法也要檢討"},{"start":13359.73,"end":13361.73,"text":"就像我講的交流協議"},{"start":13361.73,"end":13363.73,"text":"的部分"},{"start":13363.73,"end":13365.73,"text":"都是要"},{"start":13365.73,"end":13367.73,"text":"所以你什麼都是中國的錯"},{"start":13367.73,"end":13369.73,"text":"他也認為都是我們台灣的錯"},{"start":13369.73,"end":13371.73,"text":"現在最重要的問題是"},{"start":13371.73,"end":13373.73,"text":"你們讓我們"},{"start":13373.73,"end":13375.73,"text":"這個數字"},{"start":13375.73,"end":13377.73,"text":"這麼多人是留在那裡"},{"start":13377.73,"end":13379.73,"text":"被排查的話"},{"start":13379.73,"end":13381.73,"text":"你們就應該清楚的"},{"start":13381.73,"end":13383.73,"text":"到底有哪些也要講出來"},{"start":13383.73,"end":13385.73,"text":"我就是非常關心"},{"start":13385.73,"end":13387.73,"text":"他們的錯你不是說是我們的錯"},{"start":13387.73,"end":13389.73,"text":"中國國內大錯"},{"start":13389.73,"end":13391.73,"text":"你不是說是台灣的錯"},{"start":13391.73,"end":13393.73,"text":"對不對"},{"start":13393.73,"end":13395.73,"text":"我是就是那些"},{"start":13395.73,"end":13397.73,"text":"我是就是那些"},{"start":13397.73,"end":13399.73,"text":"兩位冷靜一下"},{"start":13399.73,"end":13401.73,"text":"不要緊張"},{"start":13401.73,"end":13403.73,"text":"不要緊張"},{"start":13403.73,"end":13405.73,"text":"我關心的是假設真的有這麼多人"},{"start":13407.13,"end":13409.13,"text":"被留置在大陸"},{"start":13409.13,"end":13411.13,"text":"被拘禁在大陸"},{"start":13411.13,"end":13413.13,"text":"他們的家族在像我們的陸委會"},{"start":13413.13,"end":13415.13,"text":"像我們海基會求助的時候"},{"start":13415.13,"end":13417.13,"text":"我們能提供什麼協助"},{"start":13417.13,"end":13419.13,"text":"我們有一些案件都在情形的直覺"},{"start":13419.13,"end":13421.13,"text":"在電視上面不斷的喊話"},{"start":13421.13,"end":13423.13,"text":"都是大陸好可惡"},{"start":13423.13,"end":13425.13,"text":"他怎麼可以做這個事"},{"start":13425.13,"end":13427.13,"text":"對於我們的人完全不知道"},{"start":13427.13,"end":13429.13,"text":"而且我們甚至都懷疑"},{"start":13429.13,"end":13431.13,"text":"你們數字的正確性"},{"start":13431.13,"end":13433.13,"text":"坦白說我剛剛講得很清楚"},{"start":13433.13,"end":13435.13,"text":"沒有一件是錯的"},{"start":13435.13,"end":13437.13,"text":"你也在這邊說我們數字錯"},{"start":13437.13,"end":13439.13,"text":"我解釋不讓你去"},{"start":13439.13,"end":13441.13,"text":"我們聽講了你們的廣播"},{"start":13441.13,"end":13443.13,"text":"到底是住在哪個地區"},{"start":13443.13,"end":13445.13,"text":"我們要怎麼解釋你才會知道"},{"start":13445.13,"end":13447.13,"text":"你相信他們不相信我們"},{"start":13447.13,"end":13449.13,"text":"我相信你們"},{"start":13449.13,"end":13451.13,"text":"你相信他們說的"},{"start":13451.13,"end":13453.13,"text":"說數字錯的我每個數字眼看"},{"start":13453.13,"end":13455.13,"text":"我可以給你看每個個案"},{"start":13456.07,"end":13458.07,"text":"我們在第一線執行的同仁"},{"start":13458.07,"end":13460.07,"text":"非常辛苦"},{"start":13460.07,"end":13462.07,"text":"你剛剛說你可以提供給我看"},{"start":13462.07,"end":13464.07,"text":"我就麻煩請你把相關的"},{"start":13464.07,"end":13466.07,"text":"文件以密件的方式提供給我看"},{"start":13466.07,"end":13468.07,"text":"我可以啊方便跟你做報告"},{"start":13468.07,"end":13470.07,"text":"我確實要做到底有沒有這些人"},{"start":13470.07,"end":13472.07,"text":"因為我也高度的懷疑"},{"start":13472.07,"end":13474.07,"text":"為什麼我們台灣的家屬"},{"start":13474.07,"end":13476.07,"text":"竟然這麼受委屈"},{"start":13476.07,"end":13478.07,"text":"連像我們的媒體也不敢公開報導"},{"start":13478.07,"end":13480.07,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":13480.07,"end":13482.07,"text":"像陸委會"},{"start":13482.07,"end":13484.07,"text":"像海基會的求助"},{"start":13484.07,"end":13486.07,"text":"就是你們準備了積極的做法"},{"start":13486.07,"end":13488.07,"text":"我們現在是為了這些家屬"},{"start":13488.07,"end":13490.07,"text":"我敢打爆不給你們"},{"start":13490.07,"end":13492.07,"text":"我們就如實呈現"},{"start":13492.07,"end":13494.07,"text":"沒有你講的造假"},{"start":13494.07,"end":13496.07,"text":"這不可能"},{"start":13496.07,"end":13498.07,"text":"最好"},{"start":13498.07,"end":13500.07,"text":"你要大家相信"},{"start":13500.07,"end":13502.07,"text":"最好的方式就是把數據公開"},{"start":13502.07,"end":13504.07,"text":"到底在台北有多少位"},{"start":13504.07,"end":13506.07,"text":"我們每個禮拜都公開"},{"start":13506.07,"end":13508.07,"text":"為了什麼樣的原因"},{"start":13508.07,"end":13510.07,"text":"而被彈制拘留"},{"start":13510.07,"end":13512.07,"text":"我要講是我們"},{"start":13512.07,"end":13514.07,"text":"不可以讓我講"},{"start":13514.07,"end":13516.07,"text":"交流兩三百萬人"},{"start":13516.07,"end":13518.07,"text":"不可以讓我講一句話"},{"start":13517.88,"end":13519.88,"text":"我非常感謝你關心這些"},{"start":13519.88,"end":13521.88,"text":"失聯的台灣人"},{"start":13521.88,"end":13523.88,"text":"我當然關心"},{"start":13523.88,"end":13525.88,"text":"我們數據完全沒有造假"},{"start":13525.88,"end":13527.88,"text":"今天說造假"},{"start":13527.88,"end":13529.88,"text":"是國台辦在記者會說造假"},{"start":13529.88,"end":13531.88,"text":"他們說造假我完全理解"},{"start":13531.88,"end":13533.88,"text":"因為他們就是這樣的人"},{"start":13533.88,"end":13535.88,"text":"這樣的單位"},{"start":13535.88,"end":13537.88,"text":"但是你作為中央的立法院"},{"start":13537.88,"end":13539.88,"text":"你說我們資料造假"},{"start":13539.88,"end":13541.88,"text":"而我提供造假"},{"start":13541.88,"end":13543.88,"text":"你還一再講說數字有問題造假"},{"start":13543.88,"end":13545.88,"text":"坦白講我心裡很痛心"},{"start":13545.88,"end":13547.88,"text":"我希望您能夠了解一件事情"},{"start":13547.88,"end":13549.88,"text":"我沒有質疑你們的數字造假"},{"start":13549.88,"end":13551.88,"text":"但是我現在質疑的是說"},{"start":13551.88,"end":13553.88,"text":"這些數字後面代表什麼樣的個案"},{"start":13553.88,"end":13555.88,"text":"如果你沒有清楚"},{"start":13555.88,"end":13557.88,"text":"讓我們知道"},{"start":13557.88,"end":13559.88,"text":"我怎麼會知道"},{"start":13559.88,"end":13561.88,"text":"我馬上可以告訴你個案"},{"start":13561.88,"end":13563.88,"text":"我馬上可以告訴你個案"},{"start":13563.88,"end":13565.88,"text":"如果你想聽的話"},{"start":13565.88,"end":13567.88,"text":"基本上我們今天時間還有"},{"start":13567.88,"end":13569.88,"text":"在中國大陸"},{"start":13569.88,"end":13571.88,"text":"如果你沒有做好計畫"},{"start":13571.88,"end":13573.88,"text":"沒有做好準備"},{"start":13573.88,"end":13575.88,"text":"做好心理準備是充滿風險的"},{"start":13577.12,"end":13579.12,"text":"我如果告訴你們個案"},{"start":13579.12,"end":13581.12,"text":"一個個案的個案在這邊講"},{"start":13581.12,"end":13583.12,"text":"我剛才講說每一個台灣人都會知道"},{"start":13583.12,"end":13585.12,"text":"他要不要從大陸去交流"},{"start":13585.12,"end":13587.12,"text":"要不要去旅遊"},{"start":13587.12,"end":13589.12,"text":"每個人都會有一些判斷"},{"start":13589.12,"end":13591.12,"text":"我希望你們能夠提出"},{"start":13591.12,"end":13593.12,"text":"這是把國會立委的關係"},{"start":13593.12,"end":13595.12,"text":"讓國人知道"},{"start":13595.12,"end":13597.12,"text":"負重尤其宗教交流的"},{"start":13597.12,"end":13599.12,"text":"危險性"},{"start":13599.12,"end":13601.12,"text":"所以你們就把到底是"},{"start":13601.12,"end":13603.12,"text":"一尾一貫道還是什麼"},{"start":13603.12,"end":13605.12,"text":"有哪些宗教的人士然後解隔愛國"},{"start":13605.12,"end":13607.12,"text":"我剛才都講了"},{"start":13607.12,"end":13609.12,"text":"一個個案跟個案向委員報告"},{"start":13609.12,"end":13611.12,"text":"比方今年的幾月幾號"},{"start":13611.12,"end":13613.12,"text":"在廣西有一個七十幾歲的"},{"start":13613.12,"end":13615.12,"text":"老先生他們要在旅遊途中"},{"start":13615.12,"end":13617.12,"text":"被抓了"},{"start":13617.12,"end":13619.12,"text":"到底有沒有受到你們實質的幫助"},{"start":13619.12,"end":13621.12,"text":"而不是只是口號上講講"},{"start":13621.12,"end":13623.12,"text":"然後你們到底做了些什麼"},{"start":13623.12,"end":13625.12,"text":"你們有進過什麼樣的溝通"},{"start":13625.12,"end":13627.12,"text":"我沒有不聽你們講"},{"start":13627.12,"end":13629.12,"text":"我沒有不聽你們講"},{"start":13629.12,"end":13630.12,"text":"我中間已經"},{"start":13630.12,"end":13632.12,"text":"你要相信台灣這層的自治"},{"start":13632.12,"end":13634.12,"text":"我不是相信國台辦的記者會的說法"},{"start":13634.12,"end":13636.12,"text":"基本上你就是給我扣帽子"},{"start":13636.12,"end":13638.12,"text":"我並不是說"},{"start":13638.12,"end":13640.12,"text":"我們數字造假"},{"start":13640.12,"end":13642.12,"text":"我也沒有反同說"},{"start":13642.12,"end":13644.12,"text":"國台辦說的是對的"},{"start":13644.12,"end":13646.12,"text":"我今天是中華民國的立法委員"},{"start":13646.12,"end":13648.12,"text":"我當然有資格"},{"start":13648.12,"end":13650.12,"text":"要去監國陸委會"},{"start":13650.12,"end":13652.12,"text":"要去監國海基會"},{"start":13652.12,"end":13654.12,"text":"你們每年拿了那麼多錢"},{"start":13654.12,"end":13656.12,"text":"我沒有看到實質上對於這些"},{"start":13656.12,"end":13658.12,"text":"你們所謂的被治留"},{"start":13658.12,"end":13660.12,"text":"或被拘禁在大陸的人民和家屬"},{"start":13660.12,"end":13662.12,"text":"你們提供了什麼實質的幫助"},{"start":13662.12,"end":13664.12,"text":"兩岸司法互助協議"},{"start":13664.12,"end":13666.12,"text":"實質上對於我們同仁的第一線"},{"start":13666.12,"end":13668.12,"text":"如果你想知道"},{"start":13668.12,"end":13670.12,"text":"你也可以帶你的國民議員"},{"start":13670.12,"end":13672.12,"text":"跟我們一起參與"},{"start":13672.12,"end":13674.12,"text":"你們不能用在現場"},{"start":13674.12,"end":13676.12,"text":"污衊海基會的同仁做我們沒有做事"},{"start":13676.12,"end":13678.12,"text":"你們基本上根本沒有做到什麼"},{"start":13678.12,"end":13680.12,"text":"大家勇敢的事"},{"start":13680.12,"end":13682.12,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":13687.24,"end":13689.24,"text":"好我們下一位請徐新穎委員發言諮詢"},{"start":13691.38,"end":13693.38,"text":"抱歉抱歉"},{"start":13693.38,"end":13695.38,"text":"跟正我們下一位請林德夫委員發言諮詢"},{"start":13695.38,"end":13697.38,"text":"林德夫林德夫林德夫不在"},{"start":13697.38,"end":13699.38,"text":"下一位請徐新穎委員發言諮詢"},{"start":13704.69,"end":13706.69,"text":"謝謝主席本席"},{"start":13706.69,"end":13708.69,"text":"有請邱主委還有我們羅秘書長"},{"start":13711.61,"end":13713.61,"text":"咳"},{"start":13715.61,"end":13717.61,"text":"徐委員好"},{"start":13717.01,"end":13719.01,"text":"好"},{"start":13718.04,"end":13720.04,"text":"剛剛兩位"},{"start":13720.04,"end":13722.04,"text":"對我們汪委員"},{"start":13722.21,"end":13724.21,"text":"這個他在講話的時候"},{"start":13724.21,"end":13726.21,"text":"我真的覺得你們"},{"start":13726.21,"end":13728.21,"text":"應該要聽他給你們講"},{"start":13728.21,"end":13730.21,"text":"你們再講那我接續"},{"start":13730.21,"end":13732.21,"text":"的說啦"},{"start":13731.32,"end":13735.32,"text":"我們海基會的報告寫的非常清楚"},{"start":13737.23,"end":13739.23,"text":"剛剛也有講"},{"start":13739.23,"end":13745.23,"text":"沒錯海峽兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議第十二條"},{"start":13745.23,"end":13751.23,"text":"雙方應及時通報對方人員遭限制人身自由的重要訊息"},{"start":13751.23,"end":13755.23,"text":"但是從113年4月中旬以後"},{"start":13755.23,"end":13757.23,"text":"路方已經戒詞不履行"},{"start":13757.23,"end":13761.23,"text":"導致家屬無法取得正式通報查證無門"},{"start":13762.98,"end":13766.98,"text":"那我們看到同樣一份報告後面你們又寫說"},{"start":13766.98,"end":13769.98,"text":"主要處理方式仍然是"},{"start":13769.98,"end":13771.98,"text":"巡兩會管道"},{"start":13771.98,"end":13773.98,"text":"促請路方協詢"},{"start":13774.5,"end":13776.5,"text":"也是致寒海協會"},{"start":13776.5,"end":13779.5,"text":"然後再度去寒催辦"},{"start":13779.5,"end":13784.5,"text":"再來含知法務部及警政署參署"},{"start":13785.03,"end":13787.03,"text":"OK 陸委會報告也一樣"},{"start":13787.03,"end":13791.03,"text":"失聯就透過兩會管道查詢"},{"start":13791.03,"end":13796.03,"text":"遭限制人身自由就再依共打協議要求路方通報"},{"start":13796.03,"end":13798.03,"text":"這都是你們的報告寫的"},{"start":13798.03,"end":13800.03,"text":"那我們最想問的就是"},{"start":13800.03,"end":13804.03,"text":"當政府我們台灣政府已經承認"},{"start":13804.03,"end":13808.03,"text":"這條主要通報管道已經長期失靈了"},{"start":13808.03,"end":13813.03,"text":"結果你們提出來的方案仍然是繼續發寒"},{"start":13813.03,"end":13815.03,"text":"再度去寒"},{"start":13815.03,"end":13816.03,"text":"含知"},{"start":13816.03,"end":13818.03,"text":"所以你這樣"},{"start":13818.34,"end":13822.34,"text":"明明知道不可行的你就是做個去寒的動作"},{"start":13822.34,"end":13825.34,"text":"好 那接著我來問"},{"start":13825.34,"end":13828.34,"text":"我們從113年4月中旬以來"},{"start":13828.64,"end":13832.64,"text":"我方透過協議或兩會管道"},{"start":13832.64,"end":13834.64,"text":"查詢多少案件"},{"start":13834.64,"end":13836.64,"text":"有沒有辦法立刻"},{"start":13836.64,"end":13838.64,"text":"如果沒辦法會後跟我講"},{"start":13838.64,"end":13842.64,"text":"然後就是說我方透過協議及兩會"},{"start":13842.64,"end":13844.64,"text":"你們到底查詢了多少件"},{"start":13844.64,"end":13846.64,"text":"到現在為止"},{"start":13846.86,"end":13849.86,"text":"路方實質回覆又有多少件"},{"start":13849.86,"end":13850.86,"text":"好"},{"start":13850.86,"end":13852.86,"text":"平均多久回覆"},{"start":13853.36,"end":13855.36,"text":"完全不回覆的又是多少件"},{"start":13856.89,"end":13858.89,"text":"好 你可以回答是不是"},{"start":13858.89,"end":13860.89,"text":"有數字 那可以來"},{"start":13861.41,"end":13862.41,"text":"請說"},{"start":13862.41,"end":13863.41,"text":"正如徐委員所講的"},{"start":13863.41,"end":13866.41,"text":"按照司法付出的協議第12條"},{"start":13866.41,"end":13868.41,"text":"他們必須立即通報"},{"start":13868.41,"end":13870.41,"text":"好啦 你回答我的問題嘛"},{"start":13870.41,"end":13873.41,"text":"現在到底從113年4月以來"},{"start":13873.41,"end":13876.41,"text":"我告訴你 徐委員 剛剛你講的"},{"start":13876.41,"end":13879.41,"text":"我們該去寒的 該做的 該國內相當"},{"start":13879.41,"end":13881.41,"text":"我現在的問題是你多少件"},{"start":13881.41,"end":13882.41,"text":"我們真的該做的"},{"start":13882.41,"end":13884.41,"text":"按照協議該做我們都要做"},{"start":13884.41,"end":13885.41,"text":"第幾件"},{"start":13885.41,"end":13886.41,"text":"第幾件"},{"start":13886.41,"end":13888.41,"text":"我會回答你的問題"},{"start":13888.41,"end":13889.41,"text":"你放心"},{"start":13889.41,"end":13890.41,"text":"你回答我的問題啦"},{"start":13890.41,"end":13891.41,"text":"沒有那麼多時間"},{"start":13891.41,"end":13893.41,"text":"225件 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創造"},{"start":14569.53,"end":14571.53,"text":"那這個顯然看起來就是說"},{"start":14571.53,"end":14573.53,"text":"這個是一個"},{"start":14573.53,"end":14574.53,"text":"可能是一個創造"},{"start":14574.53,"end":14575.53,"text":"是一個諷刺型的"},{"start":14575.53,"end":14577.53,"text":"或是一個"},{"start":14577.53,"end":14579.53,"text":"一個就是動畫型的"},{"start":14579.53,"end":14580.53,"text":"一般名正"},{"start":14581.6,"end":14582.6,"text":"這就"},{"start":14582.92,"end":14583.92,"text":"看起來"},{"start":14583.92,"end":14585.92,"text":"這是很"},{"start":14585.92,"end":14586.92,"text":"不是一個"},{"start":14586.92,"end":14588.92,"text":"不是一個類似身份的這種情形"},{"start":14588.92,"end":14590.92,"text":"那我們講大概就是"},{"start":14590.92,"end":14592.92,"text":"大概就是屬於"},{"start":14592.77,"end":14593.77,"text":"這個"},{"start":14593.94,"end":14595.94,"text":"委員所提的大概就是"},{"start":14595.94,"end":14596.94,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":14596.94,"end":14598.94,"text":"那像這個"},{"start":14600.56,"end":14601.56,"text":"沒有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":14601.56,"end":14602.56,"text":"就是"},{"start":14602.56,"end":14604.56,"text":"只有言語上的這一些的"},{"start":14604.56,"end":14605.56,"text":"這個相關的內容"},{"start":14605.56,"end":14607.56,"text":"那可能牽涉到"},{"start":14607.56,"end":14609.56,"text":"這個與"},{"start":14609.56,"end":14611.56,"text":"與聲音的特定的這個狀況"},{"start":14611.56,"end":14612.56,"text":"如果有身為情形"},{"start":14612.56,"end":14615.56,"text":"可能就是有可能會牽涉到"},{"start":14615.56,"end":14617.56,"text":"預約法律的這個狀況"},{"start":14617.56,"end":14618.56,"text":"我想再追問"},{"start":14618.56,"end":14622.56,"text":"對於高度敏感的政治言論案件"},{"start":14622.56,"end":14624.56,"text":"那你有沒有比一般案件"},{"start":14624.56,"end":14626.56,"text":"更嚴格的比例原則"},{"start":14626.56,"end":14628.56,"text":"和政治中立的程序"},{"start":14628.56,"end":14629.56,"text":"你警察"},{"start":14629.56,"end":14632.56,"text":"我們應該都是會依法來做"},{"start":14632.56,"end":14633.56,"text":"做查處"},{"start":14633.56,"end":14636.56,"text":"你如果沒有搜索票"},{"start":14636.56,"end":14637.56,"text":"因為我那天沒有做"},{"start":14637.56,"end":14638.56,"text":"都沒有做搜索"},{"start":14638.56,"end":14639.56,"text":"沒有搜索"},{"start":14639.56,"end":14641.56,"text":"只是在查證說"},{"start":14641.56,"end":14642.56,"text":"因為"},{"start":14642.56,"end":14643.56,"text":"沒有搜索票"},{"start":14643.56,"end":14645.56,"text":"也沒有下架的命令"},{"start":14645.56,"end":14649.56,"text":"也沒有明確的犯罪事證"},{"start":14649.56,"end":14651.56,"text":"那警察就適合到"},{"start":14651.56,"end":14653.56,"text":"創作者的住處來詢問"},{"start":14653.56,"end":14655.56,"text":"是否願意下架"},{"start":14655.56,"end":14657.56,"text":"我稍微說明一下"},{"start":14657.56,"end":14659.56,"text":"就是說這一些的這個影片"},{"start":14659.56,"end":14661.56,"text":"國內有一些可能"},{"start":14661.56,"end":14662.56,"text":"我們受理到這個案件"},{"start":14662.56,"end":14665.56,"text":"很多大概都是從境外來的"},{"start":14665.56,"end":14667.56,"text":"就是這個帳號是從境外來"},{"start":14667.56,"end":14669.56,"text":"那境外的狀況在查集上"},{"start":14669.56,"end":14671.56,"text":"就是有一些困難度"},{"start":14671.56,"end":14673.56,"text":"那這個我們發現是境內"},{"start":14673.56,"end":14674.56,"text":"我們也發現說"},{"start":14674.56,"end":14677.56,"text":"這個帳號是不是會被冒用"},{"start":14677.56,"end":14678.56,"text":"我們在查證會被冒用"},{"start":14678.56,"end":14680.56,"text":"或這些影片"},{"start":14680.56,"end":14682.56,"text":"先做這樣的查訪的"},{"start":14682.56,"end":14684.56,"text":"所以所採取的動作"},{"start":14684.56,"end":14686.56,"text":"都沒有強制的作為"},{"start":14686.56,"end":14688.56,"text":"都沒有強制的這種作為"},{"start":14688.56,"end":14690.56,"text":"但是你警察出動這個對"},{"start":14690.56,"end":14691.56,"text":"你知道對一般人民"},{"start":14691.56,"end":14693.56,"text":"這就那種感受"},{"start":14693.56,"end":14694.56,"text":"我希望就是"},{"start":14694.56,"end":14695.56,"text":"好沒關係因為時間關係"},{"start":14695.56,"end":14696.56,"text":"完成這個查訪"},{"start":14696.56,"end":14697.56,"text":"但是希望"},{"start":14698.51,"end":14701.51,"text":"請警政署是不是可以在一個月內"},{"start":14701.51,"end":14703.51,"text":"提出書面報告"},{"start":14703.51,"end":14705.51,"text":"來說明第一個"},{"start":14705.51,"end":14708.51,"text":"本案受理檢舉的法律依據"},{"start":14708.51,"end":14709.51,"text":"第二個"},{"start":14709.51,"end":14712.51,"text":"初步認定可能涉及何種犯罪"},{"start":14712.51,"end":14713.51,"text":"第三個"},{"start":14713.51,"end":14716.51,"text":"為何採取到住所查訪的方式"},{"start":14716.51,"end":14717.51,"text":"第四個"},{"start":14717.51,"end":14720.51,"text":"是否曾詢問或建議下架"},{"start":14720.51,"end":14721.51,"text":"第五個"},{"start":14721.51,"end":14724.51,"text":"誰做成這項決定"},{"start":14725.02,"end":14726.02,"text":"第六個"},{"start":14726.02,"end":14728.02,"text":"有無檢察官指揮"},{"start":14728.02,"end":14730.02,"text":"但最重要第七個"},{"start":14730.02,"end":14732.02,"text":"未來如何避免政治言論案件"},{"start":14732.02,"end":14735.02,"text":"產生選擇性執法的疑慮"},{"start":14735.02,"end":14736.02,"text":"好不好"},{"start":14736.02,"end":14737.02,"text":"好沒問題"},{"start":14737.02,"end":14738.02,"text":"那就再麻煩你們"},{"start":14738.02,"end":14739.02,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":14744.38,"end":14747.38,"text":"登記質詢委員除不在場者外"},{"start":14747.38,"end":14749.38,"text":"其餘軍已質詢完畢"},{"start":14749.38,"end":14750.38,"text":"詢答結束"},{"start":14750.38,"end":14752.38,"text":"委員王美慧 張志倫 高進素梅"},{"start":14752.38,"end":14754.38,"text":"吳宗憲 林德福 徐興盈"},{"start":14754.38,"end":14756.38,"text":"所提書面質詢列入記錄"},{"start":14756.38,"end":14758.38,"text":"刊登公報"},{"start":14758.38,"end":14760.38,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分"},{"start":14760.38,"end":14763.38,"text":"請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":14763.38,"end":14764.38,"text":"本次議程處理完畢"},{"start":14764.38,"end":14765.38,"text":"現在散會"},{"start":14773.94,"end":14775.94,"text":"不要讓他對他不公平"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}