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text":"法務部政務次長"},{"start":1658.46,"end":1660.06,"text":"黃謀信次長"},{"start":1660.06,"end":1661.14,"text":"檢察司司長"},{"start":1661.14,"end":1663.02,"text":"張曉雯司長"},{"start":1663.02,"end":1665.58,"text":"還有內政部政務次長"},{"start":1665.58,"end":1666.7,"text":"馬仕元"},{"start":1666.7,"end":1669.1,"text":"馬次長"},{"start":1669.1,"end":1670.9,"text":"警政署副署長"},{"start":1670.9,"end":1671.66,"text":"廖迅誠"},{"start":1671.66,"end":1673.22,"text":"廖副署長"},{"start":1675.1,"end":1679.1,"text":"其餘未及介紹的列席代表"},{"start":1679.1,"end":1681.78,"text":"請參議員名單就不再主一介紹"},{"start":1681.78,"end":1683.3,"text":"並列入公報紀錄"},{"start":1683.3,"end":1684.4599999999998,"text":"那本次的會議"},{"start":1684.4599999999998,"end":1685.86,"text":"我們是兩天一次會"},{"start":1685.86,"end":1687.4599999999998,"text":"我們議程排定"},{"start":1687.4599999999998,"end":1688.3799999999999,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":1688.3799999999999,"end":1691.34,"text":"有兩案分別是繼續併案審查"},{"start":1691.34,"end":1692.9399999999998,"text":"行政院寒景審議"},{"start":1692.9399999999998,"end":1696.5,"text":"毒品危害防治條例"},{"start":1696.5,"end":1698.02,"text":"第33條"},{"start":1698.02,"end":1700.34,"text":"36條條文的修正案"},{"start":1700.34,"end":1701.6999999999998,"text":"一共有23案"},{"start":1701.74,"end":1703.1000000000001,"text":"以及繼續審查"},{"start":1703.1000000000001,"end":1704.6200000000001,"text":"考試院寒景審議"},{"start":1704.6200000000001,"end":1708.18,"text":"公務人員考機法的修正草案"},{"start":1708.18,"end":1711.3,"text":"由於討論事項各案當中"},{"start":1711.3,"end":1712.3400000000001,"text":"部分相關提案"},{"start":1712.3400000000001,"end":1715.14,"text":"先前已經分別經過第五會期的"},{"start":1715.14,"end":1717.26,"text":"本會第二十二次"},{"start":1717.26,"end":1719.3,"text":"跟二十五次的會議審查"},{"start":1719.3,"end":1722.06,"text":"機關代表都已經提出報告"},{"start":1722.06,"end":1725.42,"text":"現就在併入審查的新提案"},{"start":1725.42,"end":1728.3,"text":"尚未進行提案說明的部分"},{"start":1728.3,"end":1730.8600000000001,"text":"來進行委員的提案說明"},{"start":1730.8999999999999,"end":1734.9799999999998,"text":"每一位委員的提案說明是三分鐘"},{"start":1734.9799999999998,"end":1737.82,"text":"那請提案人來進行提案說明"},{"start":1737.82,"end":1742.4599999999998,"text":"首先我們來請第一位翁曉玲翁委員"},{"start":1745.2,"end":1746.24,"text":"是報告昭偉"},{"start":1746.24,"end":1748.76,"text":"我想在開始正式的提案說明之前"},{"start":1748.76,"end":1752.0400000000002,"text":"我這裡有一個程序性的動議"},{"start":1752.0400000000002,"end":1752.76,"text":"是這樣的"},{"start":1752.76,"end":1755.0400000000002,"text":"因為我們今天主要是討論"},{"start":1755.0400000000002,"end":1757.4,"text":"毒品危害防治條例的修法"},{"start":1757.4,"end":1759.92,"text":"還有公務人員考機法的修法"},{"start":1759.92,"end":1763.3200000000002,"text":"那麼對於公務人員考機法修法這個案子"},{"start":1763.3200000000002,"end":1766.44,"text":"因為他這次總共是修了30條"},{"start":1766.44,"end":1767.5600000000002,"text":"坦白說這個等於是"},{"start":1767.5600000000002,"end":1769.8400000000001,"text":"公務人員考機法的大翻修"},{"start":1769.8400000000001,"end":1772.96,"text":"那我們上一次只有進行過一次巡達"},{"start":1772.96,"end":1774.4,"text":"在那一次巡達過程中"},{"start":1774.44,"end":1776.2,"text":"我記得就是說蠻多委員"},{"start":1776.2,"end":1778.24,"text":"還有包含司法院對於這個案子"},{"start":1778.24,"end":1779.96,"text":"其實都有一些意見"},{"start":1779.96,"end":1782.96,"text":"那麼因為現在就是說比較倉促的"},{"start":1782.96,"end":1784.8400000000001,"text":"就要進行逐條審查"},{"start":1784.8400000000001,"end":1787.5600000000002,"text":"那本席是認為不是很妥當"},{"start":1787.5600000000002,"end":1790.2,"text":"所以在這邊我是提案建議說"},{"start":1790.2,"end":1792.88,"text":"是不是我們考機法的修正草案"},{"start":1792.88,"end":1795.52,"text":"我們可以先舉辦一個公聽會"},{"start":1795.52,"end":1798.44,"text":"因為畢竟基層的聲音也很重要"},{"start":1798.44,"end":1800.52,"text":"然後同時還有專家學者們"},{"start":1800.52,"end":1804.2,"text":"其實對於考機法的修正也有一些意見"},{"start":1804.2,"end":1807.76,"text":"所以在這裡的話是不是可以請召委"},{"start":1807.76,"end":1810.4,"text":"我們可以就是對於公務人員"},{"start":1810.4,"end":1812.04,"text":"考機法修正案的部分"},{"start":1812.04,"end":1814.28,"text":"可以舉辦一場公聽會"},{"start":1814.28,"end":1817.8400000000001,"text":"那當然因為正好下週是本席排"},{"start":1817.8400000000001,"end":1819.16,"text":"我當召委"},{"start":1819.16,"end":1822.32,"text":"那麼所以我本來就會要安排下週一會"},{"start":1822.32,"end":1825.16,"text":"針對公務人員待遇調整條例草案"},{"start":1825.16,"end":1827.2,"text":"然後來辦理公聽會"},{"start":1827.2,"end":1830.56,"text":"那麼同時是如果說是"},{"start":1830.56,"end":1832.3600000000001,"text":"這個召委也覺得可以的話"},{"start":1832.36,"end":1835.56,"text":"或許我們可以一起把這個案子"},{"start":1835.56,"end":1839.32,"text":"都跟公務人員的人事制度等等有關的案子"},{"start":1839.32,"end":1842,"text":"我們可以就是共同排場公聽會"},{"start":1842,"end":1845.04,"text":"當然在這邊也這個如果說召委"},{"start":1845.04,"end":1847.8799999999999,"text":"可以就是在另外排場公聽會的話"},{"start":1847.8799999999999,"end":1849.4399999999998,"text":"那也都很好"},{"start":1849.4399999999998,"end":1853.9199999999998,"text":"所以我的建議是說是不是今天我們在這個案子上面"},{"start":1853.9199999999998,"end":1857.84,"text":"我們就可以就是來先排公聽會"},{"start":1857.84,"end":1860.32,"text":"然後之後我們再來進行逐條審查"},{"start":1860.36,"end":1862.36,"text":"那我認為會更為完整"},{"start":1862.36,"end":1862.96,"text":"好以上"},{"start":1865.72,"end":1868.8,"text":"公召委講的其實也是很有道理"},{"start":1868.8,"end":1873.96,"text":"就是說這個確實整個懲戒"},{"start":1873.96,"end":1876,"text":"有涉及到公務院的懲戒"},{"start":1876,"end":1880.64,"text":"這個部分司法院其實我們看考試院跟司法院"},{"start":1880.64,"end":1881.76,"text":"確實意見"},{"start":1883.94,"end":1884.98,"text":"不太一樣"},{"start":1885.77,"end":1888.09,"text":"其實就是司法院有疑慮"},{"start":1888.09,"end":1891.85,"text":"倒也不是因為說要不公聽"},{"start":1891.85,"end":1895.45,"text":"我們其實本席都非常贊同"},{"start":1895.45,"end":1899.17,"text":"這種重大的一個法案的一個翻修"},{"start":1899.17,"end":1902.13,"text":"加強跟各界的一個對話"},{"start":1902.13,"end":1904.65,"text":"尤其是涉及到院紀之間"},{"start":1904.65,"end":1906.77,"text":"有不同的一個看法的時候"},{"start":1906.77,"end":1909.29,"text":"那確實我都會非常謹慎"},{"start":1909.29,"end":1911.21,"text":"公聽不是不可以"},{"start":1911.21,"end":1913.6100000000001,"text":"但是就是說也不一定是公聽"},{"start":1913.6499999999999,"end":1916.6499999999999,"text":"我們在立法院我們常常動不動就禁賦惡毒"},{"start":1916.6499999999999,"end":1918.4099999999999,"text":"連委員會都沒有"},{"start":1918.4099999999999,"end":1922.77,"text":"但是這個這一部的一個法令"},{"start":1923.4199999999998,"end":1925.54,"text":"司法院這個地方的一個疑慮"},{"start":1925.54,"end":1926.58,"text":"以上比如說"},{"start":1926.58,"end":1928.62,"text":"虛心懲戒機關的認定這個部分"},{"start":1928.62,"end":1931.26,"text":"又涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋"},{"start":1931.26,"end":1935.82,"text":"公務人員依法詮釋取得的這種官等奉及"},{"start":1935.82,"end":1937.82,"text":"你說非親公務人員懲戒機關依法定"},{"start":1937.82,"end":1942.4199999999998,"text":"程序的審議來決定不得降級跟減縫"},{"start":1942.4199999999998,"end":1947.58,"text":"這個是憲法上扶公職權力所受的一個制度性的一個保障"},{"start":1947.58,"end":1950.58,"text":"司法院的一個疑慮也不是沒有道理"},{"start":1950.62,"end":1953.6999999999998,"text":"那這次權序部的一個解釋就是說"},{"start":1953.6999999999998,"end":1955.9399999999998,"text":"你現在奉及法23條的規定"},{"start":1955.9399999999998,"end":1961.02,"text":"就明定就可以法律來規定降序的一個規範"},{"start":1961.02,"end":1965.62,"text":"那權序部會這樣審定這部分"},{"start":1966.26,"end":1967.26,"text":"他認為"},{"start":1967.26,"end":1968.66,"text":"他其實就覺得說"},{"start":1969.24,"end":1972,"text":"就類似我們法律院常講的舉重明輕"},{"start":1972,"end":1975.64,"text":"免職行政機關的人事權的固有的核心"},{"start":1975.64,"end":1979.1200000000001,"text":"那你行政機關當然可以制定降序的一個規範"},{"start":1979.1200000000001,"end":1984.2,"text":"所以權序部跟司法院這個地方"},{"start":1984.2,"end":1986.4,"text":"司法院當然他一定認為說"},{"start":1986.4,"end":1991.76,"text":"你去給他侵犯到我的固有的一個權限"},{"start":1991.76,"end":1994.32,"text":"我們等一下考試院這個地方"},{"start":1994.32,"end":1997.1200000000001,"text":"程序性我們可以本來就可以來做一個採試"},{"start":1997.1999999999998,"end":2002.6799999999998,"text":"但是我來比較在做這種程序性的一個裁定"},{"start":2002.6799999999998,"end":2006.8,"text":"以前是不是請這個權序部家"},{"start":2006.8,"end":2008.52,"text":"部長你有來嗎"},{"start":2008.52,"end":2011.08,"text":"那個司法院的疑慮"},{"start":2014.6399999999999,"end":2016.56,"text":"沒關係我先讓他說明一下"},{"start":2016.56,"end":2020.04,"text":"因為你的問題其實我們要這一場公聽"},{"start":2020.04,"end":2020.84,"text":"就是說"},{"start":2021.53,"end":2023.21,"text":"不好意思我剛忘記補充"},{"start":2023.21,"end":2027.45,"text":"就是說因為昨天有接到公務人員協會等等的這些團體"},{"start":2027.45,"end":2028.81,"text":"他們有打電話"},{"start":2028.81,"end":2030.33,"text":"然後來我辦公室"},{"start":2030.33,"end":2033.01,"text":"我可能或許有召委那邊也有接到"},{"start":2033.01,"end":2036.77,"text":"那麼因為基層他們希望能夠多一點他們的意見"},{"start":2036.77,"end":2041.57,"text":"因為在這次的考績法修正裡面有非常多不確定法律概念"},{"start":2041.57,"end":2043.29,"text":"什麼職務帶多等等"},{"start":2043.29,"end":2046.21,"text":"那他們也很擔心未來就是在考績法的部分"},{"start":2046.21,"end":2048.01,"text":"看起來本來說是要放寬"},{"start":2048.05,"end":2051.3700000000003,"text":"結果反而是越來越抓緊他們的一些"},{"start":2051.3700000000003,"end":2054.13,"text":"這個未來的在工作上面的一些問題"},{"start":2054.13,"end":2059.4500000000003,"text":"所以因為就像我說他是整個全面翻修了30條"},{"start":2059.4500000000003,"end":2062.3700000000003,"text":"我也有收到"},{"start":2062.3700000000003,"end":2065.2900000000004,"text":"但是希望說能夠一併考量"},{"start":2065.2900000000004,"end":2066.73,"text":"理法院很厲害"},{"start":2066.73,"end":2069.2900000000004,"text":"理法院都不用討論就可以標給他"},{"start":2069.2900000000004,"end":2074.4100000000003,"text":"這個常常在發生的在發生每天在上演的事情"},{"start":2074.4100000000003,"end":2077.8100000000004,"text":"但我知道我覺得說我在審法案的時候"},{"start":2077.85,"end":2081.13,"text":"我總是覺得說這種制度性的一個翻修"},{"start":2081.13,"end":2082.89,"text":"來跟社會對話"},{"start":2082.89,"end":2088.41,"text":"來多聽聽機關之間的一個不同的一個看法"},{"start":2088.41,"end":2091.65,"text":"因為畢竟司法院真的是有他的一個疑慮"},{"start":2091.65,"end":2093.33,"text":"所以請補兵"},{"start":2093.33,"end":2096.0099999999998,"text":"司部長你對司法院的疑慮"},{"start":2096.0099999999998,"end":2098.21,"text":"你再論述看看好不好"},{"start":2098.88,"end":2099.96,"text":"好跟委員報告"},{"start":2099.96,"end":2105.6400000000003,"text":"我想我們有上次在上次這個大體詢問的時候"},{"start":2105.6400000000003,"end":2107.8,"text":"然後司法院的提了一份意見"},{"start":2107.8,"end":2110.28,"text":"那我們後來也就他意見的做了主動"},{"start":2110.82,"end":2112.86,"text":"就是主點的一個回應"},{"start":2112.86,"end":2114.54,"text":"那基本的基調是這樣子"},{"start":2114.54,"end":2119.78,"text":"我們是從宣判的111年的宣判9號的基調開始"},{"start":2119.78,"end":2122.26,"text":"這基調開始就告訴我們說"},{"start":2122.26,"end":2125.7000000000003,"text":"如果我們要對公務人員做任何的懲處"},{"start":2125.7000000000003,"end":2127.1400000000003,"text":"那同一室友"},{"start":2127.1400000000003,"end":2131.86,"text":"懲取就是不要讓有那個同一室友又送懲戒又送懲處"},{"start":2131.86,"end":2133.5,"text":"那雙重負擔"},{"start":2133.5,"end":2136.54,"text":"那我們這一次的修法其中一個重點之一"},{"start":2137.22,"end":2138.74,"text":"我們講的是說"},{"start":2138.74,"end":2143.18,"text":"如果我們這個行政機關已經確定就這個事項"},{"start":2143.18,"end":2144.5,"text":"採取了懲處"},{"start":2144.5,"end":2146.02,"text":"就不要再送懲戒"},{"start":2146.02,"end":2149.7,"text":"但這從來沒有去告訴行政機關說"},{"start":2149.7,"end":2151.3799999999997,"text":"一開始你決定要怎麼做"},{"start":2152,"end":2155.08,"text":"如果你認為你覺得這個案子你不想處理"},{"start":2155.08,"end":2156.32,"text":"你想送到懲戒去"},{"start":2156.32,"end":2157.68,"text":"根據現行的這個修法"},{"start":2157.68,"end":2159.28,"text":"我們沒有禁止這個事情"},{"start":2159.28,"end":2162.44,"text":"所以沒有侵犯到這個所謂這個懲戒權"},{"start":2162.44,"end":2166.24,"text":"那至於剛剛提到的這個降序一級這個部分"},{"start":2166.24,"end":2169,"text":"我們還是認為這舉重明輕的一個問題"},{"start":2169,"end":2171.24,"text":"我們都可以立法政策"},{"start":2171.24,"end":2174.24,"text":"都可以賦予行政機關在懲處可以免職了"},{"start":2174.24,"end":2176.88,"text":"那比他更輕的怎麼會不賦予"},{"start":2176.88,"end":2178.36,"text":"最後這一點我還是要講"},{"start":2179.17,"end":2181.25,"text":"我們考卸院這邊包布女認為"},{"start":2181.25,"end":2183.13,"text":"這一次我們考進來修法"},{"start":2183.13,"end":2185.05,"text":"無涉憲法層次的問題"},{"start":2186.21,"end":2188.9700000000003,"text":"我們沒有去挑戰懲戒跟懲處"},{"start":2188.9700000000003,"end":2190.33,"text":"我們講的是說"},{"start":2190.33,"end":2192.89,"text":"在一個現代化的國家裡面"},{"start":2192.89,"end":2195.01,"text":"行政機關一定要保留"},{"start":2195.01,"end":2197.85,"text":"他作為第一次裁判的一個權利"},{"start":2197.85,"end":2200.25,"text":"那後面如果任何當事人不服"},{"start":2200.87,"end":2202.67,"text":"他都可以行政就職的程序"},{"start":2202.67,"end":2205.0699999999997,"text":"包括這個最後到這個法院去"},{"start":2205.0699999999997,"end":2206.75,"text":"那所以在這個基礎下"},{"start":2206.75,"end":2209.15,"text":"到底要賦予行政權"},{"start":2209.15,"end":2211.0699999999997,"text":"在進行行政就職懲處"},{"start":2211.0699999999997,"end":2213.43,"text":"有什麼樣的工具種類"},{"start":2214.31,"end":2215.19,"text":"還有效果"},{"start":2215.19,"end":2217.55,"text":"這純粹屬於立法政策形成的問題"},{"start":2218.17,"end":2220.01,"text":"也就是說這個不是涉及到"},{"start":2220.75,"end":2221.31,"text":"憲法"},{"start":2222.88,"end":2224.32,"text":"如果最後決定說"},{"start":2224.32,"end":2227.28,"text":"因為基於整個行政管理的需求"},{"start":2227.28,"end":2229.32,"text":"他應該賦予行政權"},{"start":2229.32,"end":2231.52,"text":"有這樣一些更多元的工具"},{"start":2231.52,"end":2233,"text":"來因應各式各樣的事情"},{"start":2233,"end":2234.36,"text":"這是立法政策的問題"},{"start":2234.36,"end":2237.6800000000003,"text":"你不會侵犯到憲法裡面講的懲戒權"},{"start":2237.6800000000003,"end":2240.92,"text":"我想這是我綜合性先做這樣一個說明"},{"start":2240.92,"end":2242.92,"text":"那我也跟委員報告龍九"},{"start":2242.92,"end":2245.7200000000003,"text":"跟剛剛那個歐委員提到"},{"start":2245.7200000000003,"end":2247.8,"text":"我是不是也可以簡單的回應歐委員的一個"},{"start":2247.8,"end":2249,"text":"我也提到說很多基層"},{"start":2249,"end":2251.08,"text":"我之前講我們程序上"},{"start":2251.08,"end":2253.3199999999997,"text":"我們為了做這個事情確實是一個大修"},{"start":2254.35,"end":2256.39,"text":"那我們大修有大修的一個原因"},{"start":2256.39,"end":2257.83,"text":"我想我們在立法說明很清楚"},{"start":2257.83,"end":2258.99,"text":"那在過程裡面"},{"start":2258.99,"end":2262.0299999999997,"text":"我們用各式各樣的方式去徵詢"},{"start":2262.0299999999997,"end":2263.79,"text":"所有公務同仁的意見"},{"start":2264.71,"end":2266.71,"text":"譬如像說我們也直接開放"},{"start":2266.71,"end":2268.9900000000002,"text":"我們透過網路線上的一個調查"},{"start":2268.9900000000002,"end":2269.79,"text":"然後有各式各樣"},{"start":2269.79,"end":2272.19,"text":"那我們大概收到大概快三萬個"},{"start":2272.87,"end":2274.39,"text":"所有的同仁的回覆"},{"start":2274.39,"end":2276.39,"text":"對我們所提的這個法案的回覆"},{"start":2276.39,"end":2278.31,"text":"大概62%是贊成"},{"start":2278.31,"end":2280.39,"text":"28%是表示他沒有意見"},{"start":2280.39,"end":2281.83,"text":"那公務同仁一般來講"},{"start":2281.83,"end":2283.99,"text":"如果他贊成跟沒有意見就表示"},{"start":2283.99,"end":2285.91,"text":"他們對這個法案的方向"},{"start":2285.91,"end":2287.27,"text":"其實沒有太大意見"},{"start":2287.27,"end":2288.5499999999997,"text":"甚至是支持的"},{"start":2288.5499999999997,"end":2289.67,"text":"所以合起來只有九成"},{"start":2289.67,"end":2291.75,"text":"我意思說我們有建行這個程序"},{"start":2291.75,"end":2294.27,"text":"至於有個個別的團體"},{"start":2294.27,"end":2295.91,"text":"也有寫信給我們"},{"start":2295.91,"end":2297.5099999999998,"text":"我們大概都有"},{"start":2297.5099999999998,"end":2299.95,"text":"根據他一個東西也做不斷的調整"},{"start":2299.95,"end":2301.0699999999997,"text":"也回覆他們意見"},{"start":2301.11,"end":2302.4300000000003,"text":"裡面最多可能是說"},{"start":2302.4300000000003,"end":2303.9500000000003,"text":"譬如像說如果是"},{"start":2303.9500000000003,"end":2305.3900000000003,"text":"我們有一個未打良好"},{"start":2305.3900000000003,"end":2308.9900000000002,"text":"那些條件是會有法律不確定的一個因素"},{"start":2308.9900000000002,"end":2310.51,"text":"大概談的是這個部分"},{"start":2310.51,"end":2312.11,"text":"那我先講一個部分"},{"start":2312.75,"end":2314.43,"text":"在我們歷史的紀錄上"},{"start":2315.16,"end":2317.96,"text":"所謂未打良好就比較聽像現在"},{"start":2317.96,"end":2319.08,"text":"很像現在的那個"},{"start":2319.67,"end":2320.39,"text":"那個平等"},{"start":2320.92,"end":2322.92,"text":"那我們最近歷年來"},{"start":2322.92,"end":2324.76,"text":"幾乎那個現在平等"},{"start":2324.76,"end":2327.56,"text":"幾乎沒有明確的那個法定的那個"},{"start":2327.56,"end":2328.6,"text":"那個事由"},{"start":2328.6,"end":2329.96,"text":"我們機關打出來"},{"start":2330.52,"end":2332.12,"text":"或打平等的人數"},{"start":2332.12,"end":2334.28,"text":"大概不到0.1%"},{"start":2335.5,"end":2337.5,"text":"也就是說機關事實上對這個事情"},{"start":2337.5,"end":2339.18,"text":"都非常非常慎重"},{"start":2339.18,"end":2340.54,"text":"而且他一定有一個"},{"start":2340.54,"end":2343.18,"text":"進行後面的考機文會什麼一個程序"},{"start":2343.18,"end":2344.54,"text":"那我要講的只是這個"},{"start":2344.54,"end":2346.94,"text":"陳述這些事實也就是說"},{"start":2346.94,"end":2348.62,"text":"這些不確定性的概念"},{"start":2348.62,"end":2351.9,"text":"事實上現在在我們考機法的事情記者"},{"start":2351.9,"end":2354.7,"text":"甚至在考機法的文字裡面也都有"},{"start":2354.7,"end":2357.26,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓這個文字能夠更"},{"start":2357.84,"end":2359.0400000000004,"text":"表示說有人有疑慮"},{"start":2359.0400000000004,"end":2361.6000000000004,"text":"類似說這會不會有點這個"},{"start":2361.6000000000004,"end":2363.28,"text":"有點太主觀怎麼樣"},{"start":2363.28,"end":2365.44,"text":"我覺得我們都願意在"},{"start":2365.44,"end":2367.0400000000004,"text":"譬如說逐條審查的時候"},{"start":2367.0400000000004,"end":2368.88,"text":"在法律文字上哪些部分"},{"start":2368.88,"end":2371.0400000000004,"text":"可以大家經過大家共同的一個"},{"start":2371.0400000000004,"end":2372.1600000000003,"text":"討論把它做得更好"},{"start":2372.1600000000003,"end":2373.28,"text":"或是在陳述說"},{"start":2373.28,"end":2375.44,"text":"我們部裡面就這個法案的"},{"start":2375.44,"end":2377.2000000000003,"text":"一個方式也做了這些事情"},{"start":2377.2000000000003,"end":2379.2000000000003,"text":"那當然委員的這個"},{"start":2379.2000000000003,"end":2380.5600000000004,"text":"希望多聽"},{"start":2380.5600000000004,"end":2381.92,"text":"再聽多些意見"},{"start":2381.92,"end":2382.5600000000004,"text":"那這個事情"},{"start":2382.5600000000004,"end":2384.1600000000003,"text":"我就尊重這兩位"},{"start":2384.1600000000003,"end":2385.76,"text":"召委的最後的一個判斷"},{"start":2385.76,"end":2386.5600000000004,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2386.64,"end":2388.16,"text":"現在的公聽是這樣"},{"start":2388.16,"end":2390.4,"text":"現在公聽兩人叫都差不多"},{"start":2390.4,"end":2393.2,"text":"來發言都很刺激"},{"start":2393.2,"end":2394.72,"text":"但是這個也"},{"start":2394.72,"end":2397.12,"text":"台灣的很特殊的一個現象"},{"start":2397.12,"end":2398.56,"text":"這個也都尊重"},{"start":2398.56,"end":2400,"text":"那是不是也再來"},{"start":2400,"end":2400.7999999999997,"text":"我再來聽"},{"start":2400.7999999999997,"end":2402.4,"text":"因為畢竟這個是第二案"},{"start":2402.4,"end":2403.52,"text":"第一案其實不是這個"},{"start":2403.52,"end":2404.56,"text":"但沒有關係"},{"start":2404.56,"end":2406.7999999999997,"text":"既然聽了考試院"},{"start":2406.7999999999997,"end":2408.72,"text":"全序部這邊的看法"},{"start":2408.72,"end":2410,"text":"是不是再來聽聽"},{"start":2410,"end":2411.7599999999998,"text":"那個司法院"},{"start":2411.7599999999998,"end":2414.72,"text":"今天陳廷長有來嗎"},{"start":2414.72,"end":2415.44,"text":"司法院"},{"start":2416.24,"end":2417.68,"text":"司法院你們在這裡看完"},{"start":2417.68,"end":2419.12,"text":"如果你們簡單回應一下"},{"start":2419.12,"end":2420.7999999999997,"text":"我看最有疑慮的就是你們了"},{"start":2421.81,"end":2422.93,"text":"請你講沒關係"},{"start":2422.93,"end":2423.97,"text":"好 是的"},{"start":2423.97,"end":2427.57,"text":"我想跟主席跟各位委員報告"},{"start":2427.57,"end":2431.41,"text":"其實降級檢封"},{"start":2431.41,"end":2433.97,"text":"必須要經過司法的懲戒"},{"start":2433.97,"end":2439.33,"text":"這是四字483號解釋所揭示的"},{"start":2439.33,"end":2441.57,"text":"那這一號解釋呢"},{"start":2441.57,"end":2444.45,"text":"目前仍然有效"},{"start":2444.45,"end":2447.33,"text":"而且111憲判九"},{"start":2447.33,"end":2450.05,"text":"並沒有提到這一號解釋"},{"start":2450.05,"end":2454.4500000000003,"text":"也沒有排除這一號的解釋的適用"},{"start":2454.4500000000003,"end":2459.17,"text":"那因此在現行這個有效解釋下"},{"start":2459.17,"end":2463.01,"text":"這一部分就是屬於憲法未接"},{"start":2463.01,"end":2466.53,"text":"憲法層次上的一個保障"},{"start":2466.53,"end":2470.3700000000003,"text":"是不是可以直接用法律層次的法律"},{"start":2470.3700000000003,"end":2474.9300000000003,"text":"來改變憲法未接所設的制度性保障"},{"start":2474.9300000000003,"end":2477.01,"text":"我們認為有疑義的"},{"start":2477.09,"end":2481.65,"text":"而且剛才所引到的111憲判九"},{"start":2481.65,"end":2483.8100000000004,"text":"他解釋的標的"},{"start":2483.8100000000004,"end":2488.8500000000004,"text":"是公務人員丁等考績的免職"},{"start":2490.23,"end":2492.79,"text":"跟這裡所講到"},{"start":2492.79,"end":2496.79,"text":"草案所講到服務懲處"},{"start":2496.79,"end":2499.35,"text":"其實雖然名稱不同"},{"start":2499.35,"end":2502.4700000000003,"text":"但是也就是現行考績法"},{"start":2502.4700000000003,"end":2505.9900000000002,"text":"所講的專案考績懲處"},{"start":2505.9900000000002,"end":2506.9500000000003,"text":"這一塊"},{"start":2507.7999999999997,"end":2513.08,"text":"大法官定性為實質的懲戒處分"},{"start":2513.08,"end":2515.64,"text":"那我想這一塊"},{"start":2515.64,"end":2518.04,"text":"我們的疑慮還是認為說是跟"},{"start":2518.04,"end":2521.3999999999996,"text":"釋字483號解釋不符"},{"start":2521.3999999999996,"end":2526.04,"text":"那更何況111憲判九所講的"},{"start":2527.33,"end":2530.61,"text":"所處理的跟這邊的服務懲處"},{"start":2530.61,"end":2532.37,"text":"其實是不一樣的"},{"start":2532.37,"end":2535.01,"text":"沒有所謂舉重明輕"},{"start":2535.01,"end":2537.97,"text":"因為講的根本是不一樣的事實"},{"start":2537.97,"end":2540.05,"text":"更何況憲法"},{"start":2540.64,"end":2544,"text":"的解釋權限在於大法官"},{"start":2544,"end":2547.12,"text":"只有大法官有權來解釋憲法"},{"start":2547.12,"end":2551.44,"text":"其他任何人或任何機關都無權解釋"},{"start":2551.44,"end":2556.32,"text":"更是沒有辦法用舉重明輕這樣法理"},{"start":2556.32,"end":2559.2799999999997,"text":"就來任意的來解釋"},{"start":2559.2799999999997,"end":2561.44,"text":"這個對憲法做解釋"},{"start":2561.44,"end":2566.72,"text":"認為說可以排除483號解釋的適用"},{"start":2566.72,"end":2570.32,"text":"所以這個是我們疑慮的所在"},{"start":2570.32,"end":2571.04,"text":"而且"},{"start":2572.2799999999997,"end":2576.6,"text":"這個法律20條第四項規定"},{"start":2576.6,"end":2579.3999999999996,"text":"當做了服務懲處之後"},{"start":2579.3999999999996,"end":2582.6,"text":"就不再移送懲戒"},{"start":2582.6,"end":2586.4399999999996,"text":"那麼我們再來配合16條的規定"},{"start":2586.4399999999996,"end":2590.9199999999996,"text":"16條這裡明定機關就公務人員"},{"start":2590.9199999999996,"end":2593.96,"text":"有應該受服務懲處的時候"},{"start":2593.96,"end":2596.3599999999997,"text":"要及時辦理"},{"start":2596.3599999999997,"end":2599.56,"text":"所以既然科宇機關及時辦理"},{"start":2600.52,"end":2602.36,"text":"已經做了懲處之後"},{"start":2602.36,"end":2604.52,"text":"再搭配20條第四項"},{"start":2604.52,"end":2607.56,"text":"他就不可能再移送懲戒"},{"start":2607.56,"end":2611.56,"text":"所以我覺得這樣子一個制度的設計"},{"start":2611.56,"end":2614.04,"text":"實質上就是封鎖了"},{"start":2614.04,"end":2622.04,"text":"公務人員享有正當法律程序保障的懲戒權"},{"start":2622.04,"end":2624.68,"text":"那麼我們會覺得這樣的一個制度"},{"start":2624.68,"end":2627.64,"text":"恐怕對公務人員權利的保障"},{"start":2627.72,"end":2630.8399999999997,"text":"是有欠缺的"},{"start":2630.8399999999997,"end":2634.52,"text":"更何況如果做了行政懲處"},{"start":2634.52,"end":2640.2,"text":"他的就計是到行政法院去打行政訴訟"},{"start":2640.2,"end":2643.8799999999997,"text":"但是行政法院的行政訴訟"},{"start":2643.8799999999997,"end":2647.7999999999997,"text":"跟懲戒法院做的懲戒處分"},{"start":2647.7999999999997,"end":2650.8399999999997,"text":"其實這兩個目的不一樣"},{"start":2650.8399999999997,"end":2653.08,"text":"所以他的制度也不一樣"},{"start":2653.08,"end":2656.68,"text":"事實上懲戒法院做的懲戒處分"},{"start":2656.68,"end":2662.7599999999998,"text":"他是第一次對公務員做出一個懲戒的處分"},{"start":2664.18,"end":2670.18,"text":"行政訴訟它是行政機關已經做了一個處分"},{"start":2670.18,"end":2672.58,"text":"公務人員認為他有違法"},{"start":2672.58,"end":2674.8199999999997,"text":"然後去打行政訴訟"},{"start":2674.8199999999997,"end":2680.02,"text":"所以行政訴訟是一個事後就計法院的概念"},{"start":2680.02,"end":2682.74,"text":"懲戒法院做的懲戒懲處"},{"start":2682.74,"end":2687.2999999999997,"text":"則是第一次來做一個處罰的決定"},{"start":2687.2999999999997,"end":2689.94,"text":"所以這兩個概念是不一樣的"},{"start":2689.94,"end":2691.62,"text":"因此行政訴訟"},{"start":2692.84,"end":2694.84,"text":"他有他的就計的"},{"start":2694.84,"end":2697.2400000000002,"text":"他的就計範圍比較窄"},{"start":2697.2400000000002,"end":2703.4,"text":"行政法院只是去審查原來行政處分的合法性"},{"start":2703.4,"end":2707.4,"text":"他不會去審理到你的妥適性"},{"start":2707.95,"end":2708.6699999999996,"text":"因此"},{"start":2711.45,"end":2717.45,"text":"行政訴訟所能夠給予公務員就計是有限的"},{"start":2717.45,"end":2722.65,"text":"再加上行政訴訟有一個不利於變更禁止原則的限制"},{"start":2722.65,"end":2724.65,"text":"也就是今天機關"},{"start":2724.65,"end":2729.85,"text":"你如果對一個公務人員的違施行為是比較重大的"},{"start":2729.85,"end":2732.65,"text":"結果你卻做了一個懲戒處分"},{"start":2732.65,"end":2734.4900000000002,"text":"當你做了懲戒處分之後"},{"start":2734.4900000000002,"end":2738.09,"text":"他就不可以再送司法的懲戒"},{"start":2738.4100000000003,"end":2745.3700000000003,"text":"行政法院也只能審查你合不合法而已"},{"start":2745.3700000000003,"end":2747.77,"text":"不能夠去審查你適不適當"},{"start":2747.77,"end":2751.4500000000003,"text":"是不是應該要判更重的一個處分的種類"},{"start":2751.4500000000003,"end":2754.33,"text":"行政法院沒有辦法做到這一件事"},{"start":2754.33,"end":2758.17,"text":"因此我們覺得這一個整套的制度"},{"start":2758.17,"end":2764.57,"text":"因此我們覺得不管在制度的設計上是有不足的"},{"start":2764.81,"end":2769.53,"text":"或者是甚至與目前現行有效的"},{"start":2769.53,"end":2777.9300000000003,"text":"釋字483、491、宣判111、宣判9號的解釋意旨"},{"start":2777.9300000000003,"end":2779.61,"text":"都是有違反的"},{"start":2779.61,"end":2782.3300000000004,"text":"以上是我們的一律與說明,謝謝"},{"start":2783.46,"end":2785.1400000000003,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2785.1400000000003,"end":2787.1400000000003,"text":"我來處理一下"},{"start":2787.1400000000003,"end":2789.94,"text":"因為這條涉及到憲法44條"},{"start":2789.94,"end":2791.7000000000003,"text":"這個院際紛爭"},{"start":2791.7000000000003,"end":2794.1,"text":"這要大腳的,總統來調節"},{"start":2794.1,"end":2796.58,"text":"這我們在這裡沒辦法"},{"start":2796.58,"end":2798.34,"text":"所以我倒這樣看法"},{"start":2798.34,"end":2799.94,"text":"院際之間"},{"start":2799.94,"end":2801.46,"text":"不管是對於權限"},{"start":2801.46,"end":2803.2200000000003,"text":"或是法律間接"},{"start":2803.2200000000003,"end":2804.02,"text":"這個"},{"start":2805.78,"end":2809.78,"text":"到底要不要動用到總統院際調節權"},{"start":2809.78,"end":2812.7400000000002,"text":"這個是看法會有所不同"},{"start":2812.7400000000002,"end":2814.5,"text":"但是至少"},{"start":2814.5,"end":2817.3,"text":"歐盟委員剛提到"},{"start":2817.3,"end":2820.26,"text":"這個又確實涉及到很多公務人員"},{"start":2820.26,"end":2822.5,"text":"他本身的一個權益的問題"},{"start":2822.5,"end":2824.26,"text":"確實我這邊也收到"},{"start":2824.26,"end":2826.1000000000004,"text":"辦公室也收到很多"},{"start":2826.1000000000004,"end":2827.94,"text":"這樣主席來做裁視"},{"start":2827.94,"end":2829.54,"text":"雖然這是第二案"},{"start":2829.54,"end":2832.82,"text":"我們今天這個案子就先不處理了"},{"start":2832.82,"end":2834.6600000000003,"text":"我們擇期在審"},{"start":2834.66,"end":2835.94,"text":"先一聽我說聽"},{"start":2836.58,"end":2837.2999999999997,"text":"更加好啦"},{"start":2838.07,"end":2840.07,"text":"別的地方或者院會"},{"start":2840.07,"end":2841.8300000000004,"text":"動不動就驚呼惡毒"},{"start":2841.8300000000004,"end":2844.31,"text":"連在委員會也不討論"},{"start":2844.31,"end":2846.31,"text":"我們常常在批評"},{"start":2846.31,"end":2847.8300000000004,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":2847.8300000000004,"end":2849.19,"text":"司法法制委員會"},{"start":2849.19,"end":2850.31,"text":"我們就不要"},{"start":2850.31,"end":2853.59,"text":"所以本次的議程"},{"start":2853.59,"end":2855.4300000000003,"text":"台灣事項排第二案"},{"start":2855.4300000000003,"end":2856.55,"text":"本次會議"},{"start":2856.55,"end":2859.9900000000002,"text":"我們就來實質審查第一案"},{"start":2859.9900000000002,"end":2861.4300000000003,"text":"這個"},{"start":2861.4300000000003,"end":2863.59,"text":"毒害防治條例"},{"start":2863.59,"end":2864.8700000000003,"text":"第二案"},{"start":2864.8700000000003,"end":2867.8300000000004,"text":"我們就另期來繼續審查"},{"start":2867.91,"end":2871.5099999999998,"text":"跟第一案無關的獵食人員"},{"start":2871.5099999999998,"end":2873.5099999999998,"text":"可以先行離席"},{"start":2873.5099999999998,"end":2875.19,"text":"你看你們就笑臉了"},{"start":2885.99,"end":2887.5099999999998,"text":"在辦理堂說聽合理"},{"start":2887.5099999999998,"end":2888.5499999999997,"text":"謝謝周偉支持"},{"start":2888.5499999999997,"end":2890.1499999999996,"text":"不要這樣說合理"},{"start":2899.2999999999997,"end":2902.5,"text":"我們現在來進行提案說明"},{"start":2902.5,"end":2903.2999999999997,"text":"首先"},{"start":2903.86,"end":2905.86,"text":"提案說明"},{"start":2905.86,"end":2911.78,"text":"跟第一案無關的獵食人員"},{"start":2911.78,"end":2913.78,"text":"可以先行離開"},{"start":2917.8,"end":2919.8,"text":"來我們會議要繼續"},{"start":2921.57,"end":2923.57,"text":"提案說明的部分"},{"start":2923.57,"end":2925.57,"text":"我們是不是先請翁委員小林"},{"start":2925.57,"end":2927.57,"text":"來進行提案說明"},{"start":2927.57,"end":2929.57,"text":"時間三分鐘"},{"start":2935.15,"end":2937.15,"text":"謝謝周偉"},{"start":2937.18,"end":2940.2999999999997,"text":"今天我們其實主要要審查"},{"start":2940.2999999999997,"end":2942.2999999999997,"text":"毒品危害防治條例"},{"start":2942.2999999999997,"end":2945.18,"text":"第33條條文的修正案"},{"start":2945.18,"end":2947.18,"text":"本案的核心目標"},{"start":2947.18,"end":2949.3399999999997,"text":"主要就是為了防止毒品的氾濫"},{"start":2949.3399999999997,"end":2953.18,"text":"並且要因應新興毒品與適用型態的演變"},{"start":2953.18,"end":2955.66,"text":"因為在現行條文裡面"},{"start":2955.66,"end":2958.22,"text":"只有針對尿液檢驗"},{"start":2958.22,"end":2962.06,"text":"也就是針對特定人員來實施尿液檢驗"},{"start":2962.06,"end":2964.2999999999997,"text":"但是我們知道現在其實檢測"},{"start":2964.2999999999997,"end":2966.3799999999997,"text":"毒品的方式日新月異"},{"start":2966.38,"end":2968.38,"text":"而且也多了很多種不同的選項"},{"start":2968.38,"end":2970.38,"text":"所以在這次"},{"start":2970.38,"end":2972.38,"text":"除了就是大多數的委員提案"},{"start":2972.38,"end":2974.38,"text":"要增列唾液採驗之外"},{"start":2974.38,"end":2976.38,"text":"那本席呢"},{"start":2976.38,"end":2980.38,"text":"更主張也可以將毛髮納入法定毒品的檢測方式"},{"start":2980.38,"end":2982.38,"text":"因為這不僅是技術的升級"},{"start":2982.38,"end":2986.38,"text":"而且更是完善我國毒品防治體系"},{"start":2986.38,"end":2988.38,"text":"即為關鍵的一部"},{"start":2988.38,"end":2990.38,"text":"那麼為什麼我認為說"},{"start":2990.38,"end":2992.38,"text":"除了現行的尿液檢驗"},{"start":2992.38,"end":2994.38,"text":"還有待會大家要討論的"},{"start":2994.38,"end":2996.38,"text":"除了要增加唾液檢驗之外"},{"start":2996.38,"end":2998.38,"text":"還要增訂毛髮檢驗"},{"start":2998.38,"end":3000.38,"text":"主要是有三大理由"},{"start":3000.38,"end":3002.38,"text":"第一個就是要彌補傳統檢測的盲點"},{"start":3002.38,"end":3004.38,"text":"可以展現長效追溯力"},{"start":3004.38,"end":3008.38,"text":"現行的實務主要是依賴尿液的檢驗"},{"start":3008.38,"end":3010.38,"text":"但是尿液是受限於藥物"},{"start":3010.38,"end":3012.38,"text":"在人體內的代謝速度"},{"start":3012.38,"end":3014.38,"text":"所以多數的毒品在施用後"},{"start":3014.38,"end":3016.38,"text":"大概72小時之後就很難以檢出"},{"start":3016.38,"end":3018.38,"text":"那麼相比之下"},{"start":3018.38,"end":3020.38,"text":"毒品代謝物會隨著血液進入毛囊"},{"start":3020.38,"end":3022.38,"text":"並且流傳於毛髮當中"},{"start":3022.38,"end":3024.38,"text":"所以透過毛髮的分段檢驗"},{"start":3024.38,"end":3026.38,"text":"檢驗出的期間可以長達數年"},{"start":3026.38,"end":3028.38,"text":"而且還能夠完整的還原受檢者"},{"start":3028.38,"end":3030.38,"text":"在一定期間之內的施用歷程"},{"start":3030.38,"end":3032.38,"text":"是可以有效的補足尿液時間的局限"},{"start":3032.38,"end":3034.38,"text":"好,那第二個就是可以"},{"start":3034.38,"end":3036.38,"text":"互補發揮最大的效益"},{"start":3036.38,"end":3038.38,"text":"提升證據的可信度"},{"start":3038.38,"end":3040.38,"text":"目前毛髮檢驗"},{"start":3040.38,"end":3042.38,"text":"並非是要完全取代尿液的檢驗"},{"start":3042.38,"end":3044.38,"text":"而是雙管齊下"},{"start":3051.22,"end":3053.22,"text":"尿液的檢測其實是適合"},{"start":3053.22,"end":3055.22,"text":"可以釐清近期"},{"start":3055.22,"end":3057.22,"text":"有沒有施用"},{"start":3057.22,"end":3059.22,"text":"而毛髮檢查則是可以"},{"start":3059.22,"end":3061.22,"text":"在實務上作為極佳的補強證據"},{"start":3061.22,"end":3063.22,"text":"兩種檢測的方式"},{"start":3063.22,"end":3065.22,"text":"可以互相相互補充"},{"start":3065.22,"end":3067.22,"text":"不僅能夠提升檢驗的完整性"},{"start":3067.22,"end":3069.22,"text":"更能夠強化司法產生的"},{"start":3069.22,"end":3071.22,"text":"科學性與可信度"},{"start":3071.22,"end":3073.22,"text":"第三個就是技術規範要明確化"},{"start":3073.22,"end":3075.22,"text":"我們也兼顧人群與各自的保障"},{"start":3075.22,"end":3077.22,"text":"過去實務雖然說有將"},{"start":3077.22,"end":3079.22,"text":"已經將毛髮檢驗作為輔助的方式"},{"start":3079.22,"end":3083.22,"text":"但是在法治上對於毛髮檢體的採集"},{"start":3083.22,"end":3085.22,"text":"保存使用銷毀及識別"},{"start":3085.22,"end":3087.22,"text":"以及去識別化的處理"},{"start":3089.49,"end":3091.49,"text":"往往缺乏明確的法律授權"},{"start":3091.49,"end":3093.49,"text":"這次的修法就明確地將"},{"start":3093.49,"end":3095.49,"text":"毛髮納入本條的第一項"},{"start":3095.49,"end":3097.49,"text":"並且與第二項授權行政院"},{"start":3097.49,"end":3099.49,"text":"訂定實施辦法"},{"start":3099.49,"end":3101.49,"text":"可以讓第一項執行人員"},{"start":3101.49,"end":3103.49,"text":"有法可循"},{"start":3103.49,"end":3105.49,"text":"同時也可以為了民眾的人身自由"},{"start":3105.49,"end":3107.49,"text":"資訊自主以及個人的隱私權"},{"start":3107.49,"end":3109.49,"text":"提供完善的制度保障"},{"start":3109.49,"end":3111.49,"text":"總結來說"},{"start":3111.49,"end":3113.49,"text":"本席提案就是除了"},{"start":3113.49,"end":3115.49,"text":"要增加脫衣之外"},{"start":3115.49,"end":3117.49,"text":"還要再增加毛髮採驗"},{"start":3117.49,"end":3119.49,"text":"所以在這邊還請各位委員"},{"start":3119.49,"end":3121.49,"text":"支持本席所提的提案"},{"start":3121.49,"end":3123.49,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3133.16,"end":3137.16,"text":"好謝謝翁曉玲委員的提案說明"},{"start":3137.16,"end":3141.16,"text":"接下來請林茜淇委員來做提案說明"},{"start":3142.41,"end":3144.41,"text":"有什麼好說的嗎"},{"start":3145.08,"end":3147.08,"text":"好沒關係 別再說了"},{"start":3150.24,"end":3152.24,"text":"好"},{"start":3156.3,"end":3160.3,"text":"今天在提出的書面的"},{"start":3160.3,"end":3162.3,"text":"書面報告的機關"},{"start":3162.3,"end":3164.3,"text":"相關的書面內容請各位來參閱"},{"start":3164.3,"end":3166.3,"text":"並列入公報記錄"},{"start":3166.3,"end":3168.3,"text":"由於討論事項"},{"start":3168.3,"end":3170.3,"text":"第一案報告詢答完畢"},{"start":3170.3,"end":3172.3,"text":"決議另定期"},{"start":3172.3,"end":3174.3,"text":"繼續審查"},{"start":3174.3,"end":3176.3,"text":"今天會議就不再詢答"},{"start":3176.3,"end":3178.3,"text":"進行來做審查"},{"start":3178.3,"end":3180.3,"text":"現在來進行討論事項"},{"start":3182.18,"end":3184.18,"text":"討論事項前"},{"start":3184.18,"end":3186.18,"text":"我們先請醫事人員宣讀"},{"start":3186.18,"end":3188.18,"text":"討論事項各案的提案條文"},{"start":3188.18,"end":3190.18,"text":"預估宣讀時間"},{"start":3190.18,"end":3192.18,"text":"兩分鐘"},{"start":3192.18,"end":3194.18,"text":"另外為了審查如果有修正動議"},{"start":3194.18,"end":3196.18,"text":"或者附帶決議的提出"},{"start":3196.18,"end":3198.18,"text":"請盡速將書面送交主席台"},{"start":3198.18,"end":3200.18,"text":"B-REA來印發現場進行討論"},{"start":3200.18,"end":3202.18,"text":"如果有收到"},{"start":3202.18,"end":3204.18,"text":"這個修正動議"},{"start":3204.18,"end":3206.18,"text":"一併來做宣讀"},{"start":3206.18,"end":3208.18,"text":"宣讀以後我們就逐案來進行討論"},{"start":3208.18,"end":3210.18,"text":"請宣讀"},{"start":3209.35,"end":3211.35,"text":"討論事項第一案"},{"start":3211.35,"end":3213.35,"text":"繼續併案審查行政院和精神疫毒品"},{"start":3213.35,"end":3215.35,"text":"危害防治條例第三三條"},{"start":3215.35,"end":3217.35,"text":"及第三十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":3217.35,"end":3219.35,"text":"等二十三案"},{"start":3219.35,"end":3221.35,"text":"請參閱條文對照表"},{"start":3221.35,"end":3223.35,"text":"行政院提案第三三條"},{"start":3223.35,"end":3225.35,"text":"除第一項及第二項局中的尿疫後增列"},{"start":3225.35,"end":3227.35,"text":"或唾液外其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3227.35,"end":3229.35,"text":"委員羅志強等提案第三三條"},{"start":3229.35,"end":3231.35,"text":"同行政院提案"},{"start":3231.35,"end":3233.35,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第三三條"},{"start":3233.35,"end":3235.35,"text":"除第二項修正為"},{"start":3235.35,"end":3237.35,"text":"前項特定人員之範圍"},{"start":3237.35,"end":3239.35,"text":"或脫憶之程序方式及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":3239.35,"end":3241.35,"text":"由行政院定之外"},{"start":3241.35,"end":3243.35,"text":"其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3243.35,"end":3245.35,"text":"委員徐宇貞等委員林淑芬等委員"},{"start":3245.35,"end":3247.35,"text":"羅美玲等委員張雅玲等委員陳培宇等"},{"start":3247.35,"end":3249.35,"text":"提案第三三條"},{"start":3249.35,"end":3251.35,"text":"就同行政院提案"},{"start":3251.35,"end":3253.35,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等提案第三三條"},{"start":3253.35,"end":3255.35,"text":"除第一項及第二項局中的尿疫後增列"},{"start":3255.35,"end":3257.35,"text":"脫憶血液或毛髮外其餘同"},{"start":3257.35,"end":3259.35,"text":"現行條文委員林月晴"},{"start":3259.35,"end":3261.35,"text":"等委員廖偉祥等委員伍立華等"},{"start":3261.35,"end":3263.35,"text":"提案第三三條就同行政院提案"},{"start":3263.35,"end":3265.35,"text":"委員謝龍介等提案第三三條"},{"start":3265.35,"end":3267.35,"text":"就同委員羅庭薇等提案"},{"start":3267.35,"end":3269.35,"text":"委員徐富奎等委員林依晶等委員"},{"start":3269.35,"end":3271.35,"text":"吳思耀等委員林倩琪等委員"},{"start":3271.35,"end":3273.35,"text":"吳佩儀等委員賴慧元等提案第三三條"},{"start":3273.35,"end":3275.35,"text":"就同行政院提案"},{"start":3275.35,"end":3277.35,"text":"委員吳其銘等提案第三三條"},{"start":3277.35,"end":3279.35,"text":"除第一項及第二項局中的尿疫後增列"},{"start":3279.35,"end":3281.35,"text":"或脫憶快篩外其餘同"},{"start":3281.35,"end":3283.35,"text":"現行條文委員郭育芹等提案第三三條"},{"start":3283.35,"end":3285.35,"text":"就同行政院提案"},{"start":3285.35,"end":3287.35,"text":"委員許志杰等提案第三三條"},{"start":3287.35,"end":3289.35,"text":"就同委員鍾嘉斌等提案"},{"start":3289.35,"end":3291.35,"text":"委員吳小琳等提案第三三條"},{"start":3291.35,"end":3293.35,"text":"委員吳小琳等提案第三三條"},{"start":3293.35,"end":3295.35,"text":"除第一項及第二項局中的尿疫後增列"},{"start":3295.35,"end":3297.35,"text":"敦號、毛髮或脫衣外其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3297.35,"end":3299.35,"text":"委員吳小琳等提案第三三條之一"},{"start":3299.35,"end":3301.35,"text":"除條文中的尿疫後均增列"},{"start":3301.35,"end":3303.35,"text":"敦號、毛髮外其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3303.35,"end":3305.35,"text":"行政院提案第三六條"},{"start":3305.35,"end":3307.35,"text":"除在後段條文中的第三三條之一後"},{"start":3307.35,"end":3309.35,"text":"增列某年某月某日修正這條文外"},{"start":3309.35,"end":3311.35,"text":"其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3311.35,"end":3313.35,"text":"委員羅志強等委員羅庭薇等"},{"start":3313.35,"end":3315.35,"text":"委員徐宇貞等委員林淑芬等"},{"start":3315.35,"end":3317.35,"text":"委員羅美玲等委員"},{"start":3317.35,"end":3319.35,"text":"張宇農等委員"},{"start":3321.35,"end":3323.35,"text":"張雅玲等委員陳培宇等"},{"start":3323.35,"end":3325.35,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等委員林月晴等"},{"start":3325.35,"end":3327.35,"text":"委員廖偉祥等委員吳麗華等"},{"start":3327.35,"end":3329.35,"text":"委員謝龍介等委員許富奎等"},{"start":3329.35,"end":3331.35,"text":"委員林一基等委員林倩琪等"},{"start":3331.35,"end":3333.35,"text":"委員吳佩儀等委員賴慧元等"},{"start":3333.35,"end":3335.35,"text":"委員吳琴明等委員吳裕琴等"},{"start":3335.35,"end":3337.35,"text":"郭裕琴等委員"},{"start":3337.35,"end":3339.35,"text":"許志杰等委員翁小琳等"},{"start":3339.35,"end":3341.35,"text":"提案第三三三六條"},{"start":3341.35,"end":3343.35,"text":"郭文貴等委員"},{"start":3345.36,"end":3347.36,"text":"說到附帶決議兩件"},{"start":3347.36,"end":3349.36,"text":"附帶決議一"},{"start":3349.36,"end":3351.36,"text":"為使第一線執法人員有所依循"},{"start":3351.36,"end":3353.36,"text":"並保障人民財產與"},{"start":3353.36,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林建己委員"},{"start":3514.06,"end":3516.06,"text":"張委還有各位同仁"},{"start":3516.06,"end":3518.06,"text":"大家好 那真的是一個部分"},{"start":3518.06,"end":3520.06,"text":"像我們提出來"},{"start":3520.06,"end":3522.06,"text":"有關於這個毒品檢測"},{"start":3522.06,"end":3524.06,"text":"的這個科技其實相"},{"start":3524.06,"end":3526.06,"text":"一直在持續的精進"},{"start":3526.06,"end":3528.06,"text":"各種身為的檢體在於"},{"start":3528.06,"end":3530.06,"text":"這個準確性、時效性"},{"start":3530.06,"end":3532.06,"text":"還有採樣的便利性跟適用情境"},{"start":3532.06,"end":3534.06,"text":"也都有很多很成熟的發展"},{"start":3534.06,"end":3536.06,"text":"那最主要現在"},{"start":3536.06,"end":3538.06,"text":"這個我們毒品危害防治條例"},{"start":3538.06,"end":3540.06,"text":"那僅僅以尿液"},{"start":3540.06,"end":3542.06,"text":"所以採檢其實也很難"},{"start":3542.06,"end":3544.06,"text":"回應不同種類"},{"start":3544.06,"end":3546.06,"text":"還有列管對象跟實際的一個需求"},{"start":3546.06,"end":3548.06,"text":"所以主要是為了"},{"start":3548.06,"end":3550.06,"text":"毒品防治制度的彈性"},{"start":3550.06,"end":3552.06,"text":"跟執行的效能"},{"start":3552.06,"end":3554.06,"text":"然後更擴大這個法定的採檢方式"},{"start":3554.06,"end":3556.06,"text":"讓主管機關能夠"},{"start":3556.06,"end":3558.06,"text":"將其列管對象"},{"start":3558.06,"end":3560.06,"text":"做一個比較有效的管理"},{"start":3560.06,"end":3562.06,"text":"然後在執行場域的特性跟風險程度上"},{"start":3562.06,"end":3564.06,"text":"能夠比較採行"},{"start":3564.06,"end":3566.06,"text":"適當的檢體的採驗措施"},{"start":3566.06,"end":3568.06,"text":"然後相關的一個"},{"start":3568.06,"end":3570.06,"text":"與時俱進的方式"},{"start":3570.06,"end":3572.06,"text":"能夠比較授權這樣一個規範"},{"start":3572.06,"end":3574.06,"text":"那整個法制面"},{"start":3574.06,"end":3576.06,"text":"可以做一個強制"},{"start":3576.06,"end":3578.06,"text":"那至於我們也有其他同仁"},{"start":3578.06,"end":3580.06,"text":"提到了一些更精進的"},{"start":3580.06,"end":3582.06,"text":"包括毛髮的這個部分"},{"start":3582.06,"end":3584.06,"text":"我覺得都可以一併來考量"},{"start":3584.06,"end":3586.06,"text":"那因為現在科技進步的"},{"start":3586.06,"end":3588.06,"text":"蠻快的"},{"start":3588.06,"end":3590.06,"text":"所以我們也必須與時俱進"},{"start":3590.06,"end":3592.06,"text":"然後很即時的來做一些"},{"start":3592.06,"end":3594.06,"text":"檢測及擴大效能的一些管理"},{"start":3594.06,"end":3596.06,"text":"那以上說明"},{"start":3596.06,"end":3598.06,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3598,"end":3600,"text":"好來接下來陳昭之委員來"},{"start":3600,"end":3602,"text":"謝謝剛剛這個"},{"start":3602,"end":3604,"text":"千琦還有歐文委員他們"},{"start":3604,"end":3606,"text":"都有提到毛髮的部分"},{"start":3606,"end":3608,"text":"那這個部分我個人支持就能夠"},{"start":3608,"end":3610,"text":"想盡辦法就是把這個事實"},{"start":3610,"end":3612,"text":"找出來那但是現在應該"},{"start":3612,"end":3614,"text":"衛福部務司在場嘛"},{"start":3614,"end":3616,"text":"就是我想知道那個毛髮因為"},{"start":3616,"end":3618,"text":"因為這個像脫翼的"},{"start":3618,"end":3620,"text":"檢驗應該是現場立即"},{"start":3620,"end":3622,"text":"可能可以有初步的這個"},{"start":3622,"end":3624,"text":"反應但是等一下我會再提到"},{"start":3624,"end":3626,"text":"決議說明說就有一些偽陽性"},{"start":3626,"end":3628,"text":"我們還是要小心處理"},{"start":3628,"end":3630,"text":"那有關毛髮的部分他不可能"},{"start":3630,"end":3632,"text":"現場做檢驗"},{"start":3632,"end":3634,"text":"所以他一定是有一個"},{"start":3633.98,"end":3635.98,"text":"運送的過程或是一個時間的過程"},{"start":3635.98,"end":3637.98,"text":"就是後來"},{"start":3637.98,"end":3639.98,"text":"到底這個我們檢驗的"},{"start":3639.98,"end":3641.98,"text":"那個能力準確性"},{"start":3641.98,"end":3643.98,"text":"多久以後會生效等等然後這個當中"},{"start":3643.98,"end":3645.98,"text":"涉及這個樣本的傳送"},{"start":3645.98,"end":3647.98,"text":"到哪個地方去做處理等等"},{"start":3647.98,"end":3649.98,"text":"我是支持有這個做法但是"},{"start":3649.98,"end":3651.98,"text":"我是希望能夠了解那是不是"},{"start":3651.98,"end":3653.98,"text":"可以請衛福部"},{"start":3653.49,"end":3655.49,"text":"這個部分是衛福部來做的嗎"},{"start":3656.2,"end":3658.2,"text":"可不可以請衛福部代表來"},{"start":3658.2,"end":3660.2,"text":"跟我們說明一下就是加入毛髮檢驗"},{"start":3660.2,"end":3662.2,"text":"你們在實際上的做法"},{"start":3662.2,"end":3664.2,"text":"會是如何讓我們更安心"},{"start":3664.2,"end":3666.2,"text":"那我個人支持是這個加入的"},{"start":3666.2,"end":3668.2,"text":"好嗎謝謝"},{"start":3668.91,"end":3670.91,"text":"沒關係每一個委員"},{"start":3670.91,"end":3672.91,"text":"先"},{"start":3672.91,"end":3674.91,"text":"大家講我說"},{"start":3674.91,"end":3676.91,"text":"翁曉玲委員"},{"start":3677.31,"end":3679.31,"text":"是趙偉還有各位委員好"},{"start":3679.31,"end":3681.31,"text":"那麼本席這次"},{"start":3681.31,"end":3683.31,"text":"所提出的就是"},{"start":3683.31,"end":3685.31,"text":"要針對"},{"start":3685.31,"end":3687.31,"text":"現在我們這次"},{"start":3687.31,"end":3689.31,"text":"修法主要是就是對於"},{"start":3689.31,"end":3691.31,"text":"就是特定人員的檢驗"},{"start":3691.31,"end":3693.31,"text":"除了現在的尿液檢驗之外"},{"start":3693.31,"end":3695.31,"text":"我們多增加了唾液"},{"start":3695.31,"end":3697.31,"text":"的這個篩檢"},{"start":3697.31,"end":3699.31,"text":"這是大多數委員的提案"},{"start":3699.31,"end":3701.31,"text":"那我本身是針對"},{"start":3701.31,"end":3703.31,"text":"除了要多增加唾液之外"},{"start":3703.31,"end":3705.31,"text":"還要多增加毛髮的檢驗"},{"start":3705.31,"end":3707.31,"text":"那麼我的想法很簡單"},{"start":3707.31,"end":3709.31,"text":"第一個既然是我們"},{"start":3709.31,"end":3711.31,"text":"是要去了解"},{"start":3711.31,"end":3713.31,"text":"到底現在一些特定的人員"},{"start":3713.31,"end":3715.31,"text":"他們可能在執行相關"},{"start":3715.31,"end":3717.31,"text":"毒品的這個查驗當中"},{"start":3717.31,"end":3719.31,"text":"他們至於本身可能有吸食"},{"start":3719.31,"end":3721.31,"text":"所以也要針對這些"},{"start":3721.31,"end":3723.31,"text":"受監督的這個特定人員"},{"start":3723.31,"end":3725.31,"text":"我們要去採集"},{"start":3725.31,"end":3727.31,"text":"他們有沒有可能會有吸食毒品"},{"start":3727.31,"end":3729.31,"text":"既然是如此的話"},{"start":3729.31,"end":3731.31,"text":"那當然我們檢測的工具"},{"start":3731.31,"end":3733.31,"text":"檢測的方法可以多幾個"},{"start":3733.31,"end":3735.31,"text":"而且就像我們說的"},{"start":3735.31,"end":3737.31,"text":"就現在其實檢驗"},{"start":3737.31,"end":3739.31,"text":"到底有沒有吸毒的這個方法"},{"start":3739.31,"end":3741.31,"text":"其實很多也不只是毛髮"},{"start":3741.31,"end":3743.31,"text":"我前幾天還問了"},{"start":3743.31,"end":3745.31,"text":"這個電視科學的專家"},{"start":3745.31,"end":3747.31,"text":"他們說其實現在包含"},{"start":3747.31,"end":3749.31,"text":"減指甲"},{"start":3749.31,"end":3751.31,"text":"其實指甲都可以去測試的"},{"start":3751.31,"end":3753.31,"text":"那因此就是對於"},{"start":3753.31,"end":3755.31,"text":"這個特定人員我們要給他"},{"start":3755.31,"end":3757.31,"text":"檢查"},{"start":3757.31,"end":3759.31,"text":"有沒有吸毒這件事情"},{"start":3759.31,"end":3761.31,"text":"透過尿液這當然是一個傳統的方法"},{"start":3761.31,"end":3763.31,"text":"但是其實去檢驗尿液"},{"start":3763.31,"end":3765.31,"text":"其實我個人覺得也是麻煩"},{"start":3765.31,"end":3767.31,"text":"那如果說可以讓受監督人"},{"start":3767.31,"end":3769.31,"text":"就是要被檢查的人"},{"start":3769.31,"end":3771.31,"text":"他自己可以選擇"},{"start":3771.31,"end":3773.31,"text":"他到底是要用尿液"},{"start":3773.31,"end":3775.31,"text":"唾液還是說是用"},{"start":3775.31,"end":3777.31,"text":"毛髮"},{"start":3777.31,"end":3779.31,"text":"那麼這個事實上"},{"start":3779.31,"end":3781.31,"text":"他都是可以作為去一個檢測的方式"},{"start":3781.31,"end":3783.31,"text":"剛剛招資委員這裡"},{"start":3783.31,"end":3785.31,"text":"有提到就是說"},{"start":3785.31,"end":3787.31,"text":"像尿液的檢測可能也不是"},{"start":3787.31,"end":3789.31,"text":"當場"},{"start":3789.31,"end":3791.31,"text":"當場就可以"},{"start":3791.31,"end":3793.31,"text":"做出來結果的"},{"start":3793.31,"end":3795.31,"text":"毛髮反應比較長期"},{"start":3795.31,"end":3797.31,"text":"然後可能要更"},{"start":3797.31,"end":3799.31,"text":"可能毛髮在檢查的當中"},{"start":3799.31,"end":3801.31,"text":"他的過程可能"},{"start":3801.31,"end":3803.31,"text":"像毛髮過去我了解重金屬"},{"start":3803.31,"end":3805.31,"text":"所以我要請專家講話"},{"start":3805.31,"end":3807.31,"text":"可能要十根以上之類的"},{"start":3807.31,"end":3809.31,"text":"那個量不是說一兩根就足夠"},{"start":3809.31,"end":3811.31,"text":"這個有關專業執勤的部分"},{"start":3811.31,"end":3813.31,"text":"所以我要講的就是說"},{"start":3813.31,"end":3815.31,"text":"其實因為我知道法務部可能"},{"start":3815.31,"end":3817.31,"text":"有一些意見認為說"},{"start":3817.31,"end":3819.31,"text":"用毛髮檢測可能是一種侵入"},{"start":3819.31,"end":3821.31,"text":"可是其實坦白說"},{"start":3821.31,"end":3823.31,"text":"我倒不覺得毛髮的檢測"},{"start":3823.31,"end":3825.31,"text":"是一種侵入反而是"},{"start":3825.31,"end":3827.31,"text":"像是尿檢或唾液"},{"start":3827.31,"end":3829.31,"text":"如果說這個用唾液塞檢"},{"start":3829.31,"end":3831.31,"text":"這個受監督人他"},{"start":3831.31,"end":3833.31,"text":"一直嘴巴閉著他不張開"},{"start":3833.31,"end":3835.31,"text":"你也是要把他的嘴巴打開"},{"start":3835.31,"end":3837.31,"text":"然後進去去測那反而是頭髮"},{"start":3837.31,"end":3839.31,"text":"來講的話他也不見得一定要去拔"},{"start":3839.31,"end":3841.31,"text":"要有那個毛囊他其實"},{"start":3841.31,"end":3843.31,"text":"這個只要有剪到"},{"start":3843.31,"end":3845.31,"text":"一幾根的話其實應該也就"},{"start":3845.31,"end":3847.31,"text":"足夠了當然我知道如果說"},{"start":3847.31,"end":3849.31,"text":"是今天要去增加"},{"start":3849.31,"end":3851.31,"text":"毛髮的檢測可能會造成"},{"start":3851.31,"end":3853.31,"text":"就是相關的單位"},{"start":3853.31,"end":3855.31,"text":"他們要多花一些錢"},{"start":3855.31,"end":3857.31,"text":"未來可能要去做"},{"start":3857.31,"end":3859.31,"text":"這個毛髮的這個檢測開始委託"},{"start":3859.31,"end":3861.31,"text":"給外面的專業的"},{"start":3861.31,"end":3863.31,"text":"實驗室去做或者是說"},{"start":3863.31,"end":3865.31,"text":"自己可能要增加"},{"start":3865.31,"end":3867.31,"text":"人力設備去檢驗但是"},{"start":3867.31,"end":3869.31,"text":"我的想法是說如果說"},{"start":3869.31,"end":3871.31,"text":"是從防治毒品"},{"start":3871.31,"end":3873.31,"text":"的這個角度來看的話"},{"start":3873.31,"end":3875.31,"text":"有更多不同可以去檢測"},{"start":3875.31,"end":3877.31,"text":"毒品的方法我都是"},{"start":3877.31,"end":3879.31,"text":"支持的那甚至包含就是"},{"start":3879.31,"end":3881.31,"text":"我們剛剛說的連指甲"},{"start":3881.31,"end":3883.31,"text":"其實都可以作為一個檢測的手段"},{"start":3883.31,"end":3885.31,"text":"好那以上謝謝"},{"start":3885.31,"end":3887.31,"text":"王委員其實"},{"start":3887.31,"end":3889.31,"text":"我知道大家都有準備"},{"start":3889.31,"end":3891.31,"text":"而來啦但是這個毛髮"},{"start":3891.31,"end":3893.31,"text":"這個東西"},{"start":3893.31,"end":3895.31,"text":"其實是為血液"},{"start":3895.31,"end":3897.31,"text":"到最後"},{"start":3897.31,"end":3899.31,"text":"到最後就跑去法師"},{"start":3899.31,"end":3901.31,"text":"錄影帶回收"},{"start":3901.31,"end":3903.31,"text":"但是那個其實是一個長期的東西"},{"start":3903.31,"end":3905.31,"text":"這個其實在座"},{"start":3905.31,"end":3907.31,"text":"很多實務上大家都是"},{"start":3907.31,"end":3909.31,"text":"專家啦"},{"start":3909.31,"end":3911.31,"text":"可是我們現在講的是在講初驗"},{"start":3912.01,"end":3914.01,"text":"講的是在講初驗"},{"start":3914.01,"end":3916.01,"text":"要跟他驗出來你說尿液"},{"start":3916.01,"end":3918.01,"text":"當然是大家看"},{"start":3918.01,"end":3920.01,"text":"想簡單的就是"},{"start":3920.01,"end":3922.01,"text":"很冰凶硬的就是尿液"},{"start":3922.01,"end":3924.01,"text":"那確實也會講到"},{"start":3924.01,"end":3926.01,"text":"毛髮"},{"start":3926.01,"end":3928.01,"text":"但是毛髮就是比較長期的"},{"start":3928.01,"end":3930.01,"text":"再來就唾液"},{"start":3930.01,"end":3932.01,"text":"再來什麼血液"},{"start":3932.01,"end":3934.01,"text":"有可能現在還"},{"start":3934.01,"end":3936.01,"text":"我這幾天在準備的時候"},{"start":3936.01,"end":3938.01,"text":"我還發現還有什麼汗液"},{"start":3939.16,"end":3941.16,"text":"汗液也有耶"},{"start":3941.16,"end":3943.16,"text":"紅膜那個就不用講了嘛"},{"start":3943.16,"end":3945.16,"text":"那個大家都知道了嘛"},{"start":3945.16,"end":3947.16,"text":"問題就是說王委員"},{"start":3947.16,"end":3949.16,"text":"我們這個"},{"start":3949.16,"end":3951.16,"text":"現在講的就是你頭前"},{"start":3951.16,"end":3953.16,"text":"在做初驗的時候是不是要給人家方便"},{"start":3953.16,"end":3955.16,"text":"講的那個"},{"start":3955.16,"end":3957.16,"text":"比較敷衍的話"},{"start":3957.16,"end":3959.16,"text":"司法機關到最後一定都是敷衍的啦"},{"start":3959.16,"end":3961.16,"text":"他那個程序到"},{"start":3961.16,"end":3963.16,"text":"又變成的比較"},{"start":3963.16,"end":3965.16,"text":"變成到最後會比較嚴謹了啦"},{"start":3965.16,"end":3967.16,"text":"所以剛剛陳召治委員提到那個確實喔"},{"start":3967.16,"end":3969.16,"text":"毛髮的部分都是在講"},{"start":3969.16,"end":3971.16,"text":"回溯比較長期你時間也會比較久"},{"start":3971.16,"end":3973.16,"text":"但是我們聽聽"},{"start":3973.16,"end":3975.16,"text":"那個行政部門的"},{"start":3975.16,"end":3977.16,"text":"來來來"},{"start":3977.16,"end":3979.16,"text":"那個雅玲委員"},{"start":3979.16,"end":3981.16,"text":"我想就是說因為其實"},{"start":3981.16,"end":3983.16,"text":"剛剛大家都講了非常多"},{"start":3983.16,"end":3985.16,"text":"我們有很多採驗的方式喔"},{"start":3985.16,"end":3987.16,"text":"但是還是要回溯到就是說"},{"start":3987.16,"end":3989.16,"text":"初驗我們要追求時溯時效性嘛"},{"start":3989.16,"end":3991.16,"text":"這是第一個部分"},{"start":3991.16,"end":3993.16,"text":"第二個就是說其實因為我之前也有關心到"},{"start":3993.16,"end":3995.16,"text":"我們在唾液有一些偽陽性"},{"start":3995.16,"end":3997.16,"text":"那個陳召治委員、翁曉遠委員跟林茜琪委員"},{"start":3997.16,"end":3999.16,"text":"也有這樣子的一個附帶決議喔"},{"start":3999.16,"end":4001.16,"text":"就是避免說"},{"start":4001.16,"end":4003.16,"text":"他如果最後被證明的時候"},{"start":4003.16,"end":4005.16,"text":"我們應該要有一些相關的救濟制度"},{"start":4005.16,"end":4007.16,"text":"所以我今天在希望大家"},{"start":4007.16,"end":4009.16,"text":"再思考一下喔就是說"},{"start":4009.16,"end":4011.16,"text":"也可能待會租管機關可以來說明喔"},{"start":4011.16,"end":4013.16,"text":"就是說如果我們今天"},{"start":4013.16,"end":4015.16,"text":"增加了不管是血液"},{"start":4015.16,"end":4017.16,"text":"因為也有委員提出血液"},{"start":4017.51,"end":4019.51,"text":"那這個過程"},{"start":4019.51,"end":4021.51,"text":"就會變成更更冗長"},{"start":4021.51,"end":4023.51,"text":"那更冗長的時候呢"},{"start":4023.51,"end":4025.51,"text":"那他這個保管車輛、吊扣、駕照"},{"start":4025.51,"end":4027.51,"text":"的這個時間可能也就會更冗長"},{"start":4027.51,"end":4029.51,"text":"那會不會影響到人民的"},{"start":4029.51,"end":4031.51,"text":"如果他是一個無辜的人"},{"start":4031.51,"end":4033.51,"text":"他會不會影響到他的生計"},{"start":4033.51,"end":4035.51,"text":"我覺得這個也是大家要來考量的地方"},{"start":4035.51,"end":4037.51,"text":"因為以光現在唾液來講"},{"start":4037.51,"end":4039.51,"text":"他們就已經要等到將近半個月"},{"start":4039.51,"end":4041.51,"text":"甚至一個月的時間了"},{"start":4041.51,"end":4043.51,"text":"那如果要再增加這個"},{"start":4042.1,"end":4044.1,"text":"那麼多可能要更花時間"},{"start":4044.1,"end":4046.1,"text":"我不太確定血液跟毛髮是不是會更快"},{"start":4046.1,"end":4048.1,"text":"還是怎麼樣這個可能待會也可以請"},{"start":4048.1,"end":4050.1,"text":"這個相關機關再說明一下"},{"start":4050.1,"end":4052.1,"text":"為什麼我們在這麼多的選擇裡"},{"start":4052.1,"end":4054.1,"text":"我們只增加了唾液"},{"start":4054.1,"end":4056.1,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4056.39,"end":4058.39,"text":"那法務部"},{"start":4058.39,"end":4060.39,"text":"來黃市長這個比較專業的說明"},{"start":4060.39,"end":4062.39,"text":"今天大家每一個委員都有所準備而來"},{"start":4062.39,"end":4064.39,"text":"但是這種專業的東西"},{"start":4064.39,"end":4066.39,"text":"我們最後還是會比較尊重"},{"start":4066.39,"end":4068.39,"text":"這個行政部門的專業意見"},{"start":4068.39,"end":4070.39,"text":"請來"},{"start":4070.39,"end":4072.39,"text":"那曹委各位委員大家好"},{"start":4072.39,"end":4074.39,"text":"那首先要跟各位報告就是說"},{"start":4074.39,"end":4076.39,"text":"我們這條要處理的其實是一個"},{"start":4076.39,"end":4078.39,"text":"行政上的管理跟行政上的"},{"start":4078.39,"end":4080.39,"text":"預防的目的"},{"start":4080.39,"end":4082.39,"text":"各位委員不可以從這個犯罪偵查"},{"start":4082.39,"end":4084.39,"text":"的角度去處罰"},{"start":4084.39,"end":4086.39,"text":"犯罪偵查如果它是一個鑑定的概念"},{"start":4086.39,"end":4088.39,"text":"剛剛委員講的完全同意"},{"start":4088.39,"end":4090.39,"text":"它必須要多元它必須要確效"},{"start":4090.39,"end":4092.39,"text":"它必須要有一個"},{"start":4092.39,"end":4094.39,"text":"出塞復塞一大堆程序保障"},{"start":4094.39,"end":4096.389999999999,"text":"但這條目的不是"},{"start":4096.389999999999,"end":4098.389999999999,"text":"這條目的它是行政管理跟行政預防"},{"start":4098.389999999999,"end":4100.389999999999,"text":"所以各位委員看一下"},{"start":4100.389999999999,"end":4102.389999999999,"text":"它的行政條文它的主體是誰"},{"start":4102.389999999999,"end":4104.389999999999,"text":"它其實採用的主體是"},{"start":4104.389999999999,"end":4106.389999999999,"text":"行政機關"},{"start":4106.389999999999,"end":4108.389999999999,"text":"換句話說不是我們一般的"},{"start":4108.389999999999,"end":4110.389999999999,"text":"執法人員"},{"start":4110.389999999999,"end":4112.389999999999,"text":"中華民國現在"},{"start":4112.39,"end":4114.39,"text":"中華民國十個行政部門的"},{"start":4114.39,"end":4116.39,"text":"行政人員他要"},{"start":4116.39,"end":4118.39,"text":"負責採驗他根本"},{"start":4118.39,"end":4120.39,"text":"沒有受過專業的偵查訓練的人"},{"start":4120.39,"end":4122.39,"text":"去採驗第一個他不是"},{"start":4122.39,"end":4124.39,"text":"偵查人員去採驗他是"},{"start":4124.39,"end":4126.39,"text":"行政人員去採驗第二個"},{"start":4126.39,"end":4128.39,"text":"他所採驗的對象是誰"},{"start":4128.39,"end":4130.39,"text":"犯罪偵查的對象是犯罪"},{"start":4130.39,"end":4132.39,"text":"嫌疑人他在訴訟法上"},{"start":4132.39,"end":4134.39,"text":"他有一定忍受的義務"},{"start":4134.39,"end":4136.39,"text":"但是這個這個採驗的對象"},{"start":4136.39,"end":4138.39,"text":"是中華民國"},{"start":4138.39,"end":4140.39,"text":"公務員他有可能是"},{"start":4141.53,"end":4143.53,"text":"他的主管事業是基於公共安全"},{"start":4143.53,"end":4145.53,"text":"比如說開飛機的"},{"start":4145.53,"end":4147.53,"text":"開捷運的開火車的"},{"start":4147.53,"end":4149.53,"text":"他本身是"},{"start":4149.53,"end":4151.53,"text":"因為他的業務屬性"},{"start":4151.53,"end":4153.53,"text":"或者他本身可能是接觸"},{"start":4153.53,"end":4155.53,"text":"毒品的業務從業人員"},{"start":4155.53,"end":4157.53,"text":"毒品的保管庫的公務員"},{"start":4157.53,"end":4159.53,"text":"我們的調查人員我們警察人員"},{"start":4159.53,"end":4161.53,"text":"所以他本身不是"},{"start":4161.53,"end":4163.53,"text":"在犯罪只是基於"},{"start":4163.53,"end":4165.53,"text":"公共安全的目的基於行政管理"},{"start":4165.53,"end":4167.53,"text":"的目的我們要事先"},{"start":4167.53,"end":4169.53,"text":"是基於社會防衛的角度來看"},{"start":4169.53,"end":4171.53,"text":"我們要事先的預防"},{"start":4171.53,"end":4173.53,"text":"所以我們對這些人我們要採取"},{"start":4173.53,"end":4175.53,"text":"這麼強大強度的"},{"start":4175.53,"end":4177.53,"text":"這一個檢驗方法嗎"},{"start":4177.53,"end":4179.53,"text":"這個要請各位委員"},{"start":4179.53,"end":4181.53,"text":"這個考慮"},{"start":4181.53,"end":4183.53,"text":"第二點各位委員一直在講"},{"start":4183.53,"end":4185.53,"text":"為什麼只有尿液為什麼只有唾液"},{"start":4185.53,"end":4187.53,"text":"因為他的快速性便利性"},{"start":4187.53,"end":4189.53,"text":"我們現在的"},{"start":4189.53,"end":4191.53,"text":"唾液他有快篩"},{"start":4191.53,"end":4193.53,"text":"尿液也有快篩"},{"start":4193.53,"end":4195.53,"text":"所以我們一般的行政人員透過快篩"},{"start":4195.53,"end":4197.53,"text":"像我們COVID-19一樣兩條線"},{"start":4197.53,"end":4199.53,"text":"就是有陽性了"},{"start":4199.53,"end":4201.53,"text":"他馬上即時就可以知道了"},{"start":4201.53,"end":4203.53,"text":"我們一般的行政人員"},{"start":4203.53,"end":4205.53,"text":"他就可以知道快篩的結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":4205.53,"end":4207.53,"text":"我們現在除了尿液"},{"start":4207.53,"end":4209.53,"text":"除了唾液之外"},{"start":4209.53,"end":4211.53,"text":"我們並沒有毛髮的快篩"},{"start":4211.53,"end":4213.53,"text":"我們也沒有血液的快篩"},{"start":4213.53,"end":4215.53,"text":"所以血液它是必須要進入"},{"start":4215.53,"end":4217.53,"text":"一個侵入性的採取"},{"start":4217.53,"end":4219.53,"text":"才有辦法可以檢驗"},{"start":4220.49,"end":4222.49,"text":"毛髮沒有錯"},{"start":4222.49,"end":4224.49,"text":"也許不會被歸類成侵入性的措施"},{"start":4224.49,"end":4226.49,"text":"但是毛髮他是要去檢"},{"start":4226.49,"end":4228.49,"text":"他要檢對一般民眾的人格權"},{"start":4228.49,"end":4230.49,"text":"人格就是產生很大的影響"},{"start":4233.24,"end":4235.24,"text":"這個對象是用對象包括學生"},{"start":4235.24,"end":4237.24,"text":"包括我們的警察"},{"start":4237.24,"end":4239.24,"text":"包括普羅的一般的"},{"start":4239.59,"end":4241.59,"text":"公務員"},{"start":4241.59,"end":4243.59,"text":"我們就去採他的毛髮"},{"start":4243.82,"end":4245.82,"text":"對這個公務員的人格權"},{"start":4245.82,"end":4247.82,"text":"是某個程度上是沒有獲得一個足夠的保障"},{"start":4247.82,"end":4249.82,"text":"所以這部分我要跟委員報告"},{"start":4249.82,"end":4251.82,"text":"第三點"},{"start":4251.82,"end":4253.82,"text":"我們這個辦法其實"},{"start":4253.82,"end":4255.82,"text":"各位去看條文的後面"},{"start":4255.82,"end":4257.82,"text":"如果這個公務員不遵守的話"},{"start":4257.82,"end":4259.82,"text":"另外還有一個附帶的效果是什麼"},{"start":4259.82,"end":4261.82,"text":"可以拘束他的身體"},{"start":4261.74,"end":4263.74,"text":"對象看如果我們要採他毛髮"},{"start":4263.74,"end":4265.74,"text":"他不願意"},{"start":4265.54,"end":4267.54,"text":"或怎麼樣我們是可以"},{"start":4267.28,"end":4269.28,"text":"拘束他的身體的"},{"start":4269.47,"end":4271.47,"text":"所以我們為什麼不願意把這個範圍擴這麼大"},{"start":4271.47,"end":4273.47,"text":"因為他會對我們的"},{"start":4274.72,"end":4276.72,"text":"公務員"},{"start":4276.72,"end":4278.72,"text":"所監督的人員的人身自由"},{"start":4278.72,"end":4280.72,"text":"會產生連動的效果"},{"start":4280.72,"end":4282.72,"text":"這我會跟各位報告"},{"start":4282.72,"end":4284.72,"text":"第四點 剛剛翁委員有提到"},{"start":4284.72,"end":4286.72,"text":"就是說我用毛髮我可以知道"},{"start":4286.72,"end":4288.72,"text":"他更久之前他有沒有使用"},{"start":4288.72,"end":4290.72,"text":"毒品來避免這個"},{"start":4290.72,"end":4292.72,"text":"空窗 但我跟委員報告"},{"start":4292.72,"end":4294.72,"text":"這個法的立法目的是什麼"},{"start":4294.72,"end":4296.72,"text":"是要即時性的處理"},{"start":4296.72,"end":4298.72,"text":"譬如說這個人即將要去開飛機了"},{"start":4298.72,"end":4300.72,"text":"他即將要開捷運了"},{"start":4300.72,"end":4302.72,"text":"他即將開火車了 我要馬上知道他有沒有"},{"start":4302.72,"end":4304.72,"text":"使用毒品 我要知道他現在"},{"start":4304.72,"end":4306.72,"text":"24小時前有沒有使用毒品"},{"start":4306.72,"end":4308.72,"text":"他有危險性我就不准他去開車開飛機"},{"start":4309.55,"end":4311.55,"text":"我不需要知道他6個月前有沒有"},{"start":4311.55,"end":4313.55,"text":"使用毒品 那是另外犯罪"},{"start":4313.55,"end":4315.55,"text":"去偵查的問題"},{"start":4315.55,"end":4317.55,"text":"而不是我這個法現實立即要處理的"},{"start":4317.55,"end":4319.55,"text":"我現實立即要處理就是"},{"start":4319.55,"end":4321.55,"text":"基於公共安全要不要馬上的禁止他去"},{"start":4321.55,"end":4323.55,"text":"開飛機 禁止他去開捷運"},{"start":4323.55,"end":4325.55,"text":"禁止他去開火車"},{"start":4325.55,"end":4327.55,"text":"這個法的目的 所以我一再"},{"start":4327.55,"end":4329.55,"text":"跟各位委員報告就是說"},{"start":4331.22,"end":4333.22,"text":"這個法的立法目的不是"},{"start":4333.22,"end":4335.22,"text":"有啦 大家聽到有啦 大家聽到"},{"start":4335.22,"end":4337.22,"text":"你這個說明很好啦"},{"start":4337.22,"end":4339.22,"text":"就是說我們也聽聽行政部門"},{"start":4339.22,"end":4341.22,"text":"像譬如說"},{"start":4341.22,"end":4343.22,"text":"市長我問你開飛機的"},{"start":4343.22,"end":4345.22,"text":"誰要給他下令"},{"start":4345.22,"end":4347.22,"text":"開捷運的台北市捷運公司"},{"start":4347.22,"end":4349.22,"text":"捷運公司的誰就有"},{"start":4349.22,"end":4351.22,"text":"台北市政府當然可以啦"},{"start":4351.22,"end":4353.22,"text":"但是因為他是民"},{"start":4353.22,"end":4355.22,"text":"他又是公司耶"},{"start":4355.22,"end":4357.22,"text":"你如果捷運公車"},{"start":4357.22,"end":4359.22,"text":"捷運的司機"},{"start":4359.22,"end":4361.22,"text":"公車的司機"},{"start":4361.22,"end":4363.22,"text":"要進行採測採驗的話"},{"start":4363.22,"end":4365.22,"text":"出院要比較"},{"start":4365.22,"end":4367.22,"text":"迅速及時性"},{"start":4367.22,"end":4369.22,"text":"那什麼機關要去"},{"start":4369.22,"end":4371.22,"text":"行政部門 什麼要去做"},{"start":4371.22,"end":4373.22,"text":"因為這個法授權訂了一個"},{"start":4373.22,"end":4375.22,"text":"特定人員採驗辦法"},{"start":4375.22,"end":4377.22,"text":"採驗辦法裡面只有列出十種"},{"start":4377.22,"end":4379.22,"text":"目前為止大概"},{"start":4379.22,"end":4381.22,"text":"十個部會 剛才委員提到就交通部"},{"start":4381.22,"end":4383.22,"text":"OK"},{"start":4383.22,"end":4385.22,"text":"交通部各自主管按照他各自的"},{"start":4385.22,"end":4387.22,"text":"屬性 他所列他主要採取"},{"start":4387.22,"end":4389.22,"text":"地方機關耶"},{"start":4389.22,"end":4391.22,"text":"地方機關 但是你剛才說到"},{"start":4391.22,"end":4393.22,"text":"你剛才說到捷運的"},{"start":4393.22,"end":4395.22,"text":"當然是中央機關是台北的"},{"start":4396.91,"end":4398.91,"text":"交通部啊"},{"start":4398.91,"end":4400.91,"text":"各部會自己內部怎麼分公司各部會"},{"start":4400.91,"end":4402.91,"text":"就我們這個副表包括內政部"},{"start":4402.91,"end":4404.91,"text":"國防部 交易部 法務部"},{"start":4404.91,"end":4406.91,"text":"經濟部 交通部"},{"start":4406.91,"end":4408.91,"text":"包括衛生福利部 海洋委員會"},{"start":4408.91,"end":4410.91,"text":"包括財政部 包括國安局"},{"start":4410.91,"end":4412.91,"text":"OK"},{"start":4412.91,"end":4414.91,"text":"其實我們委員其實這樣子啦"},{"start":4414.91,"end":4416.91,"text":"我們司法法治委員會最容易最好溝通的地方"},{"start":4416.91,"end":4418.91,"text":"他確實他這個三十三條"},{"start":4418.91,"end":4420.91,"text":"是要講的就是說"},{"start":4420.91,"end":4422.91,"text":"我要即時性"},{"start":4422.91,"end":4424.91,"text":"我一定要用最快的方法"},{"start":4424.91,"end":4426.91,"text":"跟你講的那個毛髮"},{"start":4426.91,"end":4428.91,"text":"好像一個錄影帶的倒帶一樣"},{"start":4428.91,"end":4430.91,"text":"我從這個人吸毒以後"},{"start":4430.91,"end":4432.91,"text":"他進入血液"},{"start":4432.91,"end":4434.91,"text":"然後血液會到這個整個毛髮裡面的"},{"start":4434.91,"end":4436.91,"text":"殘留 我要追蹤你前半年"},{"start":4436.91,"end":4438.91,"text":"確實那個從毛髮來"},{"start":4438.91,"end":4440.91,"text":"用的話那個確實是非常有用"},{"start":4440.91,"end":4442.91,"text":"可是他現在規範的不是這個"},{"start":4442.91,"end":4444.91,"text":"他規範的那個不是犯罪偵查"},{"start":4444.91,"end":4446.91,"text":"我們現在三十三條就是說"},{"start":4446.91,"end":4448.91,"text":"要讓他快速 要用什麼比較快"},{"start":4448.91,"end":4450.91,"text":"看一看 開始有那麼低"},{"start":4450.53,"end":4452.53,"text":"所以他們今天要"},{"start":4452.53,"end":4454.53,"text":"就請這邊提出這個"},{"start":4454.53,"end":4456.53,"text":"是不是大家也可以來支持"},{"start":4456.53,"end":4458.53,"text":"來 再聽聽你們的看法"},{"start":4458.53,"end":4460.53,"text":"是 因為我想這個部分"},{"start":4460.53,"end":4462.53,"text":"我想脫衣我是絕對支持的"},{"start":4462.53,"end":4464.53,"text":"那現在的話因為有些問題我還是想釐清"},{"start":4464.53,"end":4466.53,"text":"第一個就是說針對這個"},{"start":4466.53,"end":4468.53,"text":"剛剛講的你們那個篩檢的次數"},{"start":4468.53,"end":4470.53,"text":"還有期間"},{"start":4470.53,"end":4472.53,"text":"是多久會篩檢一次"},{"start":4472.53,"end":4474.53,"text":"然後呢你們這個"},{"start":4474.53,"end":4476.53,"text":"對於像是剛剛講"},{"start":4476.53,"end":4478.53,"text":"不管是開飛機啦 或者說是這個"},{"start":4478.53,"end":4480.53,"text":"捷運的司機或是特定機關的"},{"start":4480.53,"end":4482.53,"text":"他可能會接觸到"},{"start":4482.53,"end":4484.53,"text":"毒品的相關的人員"},{"start":4484.53,"end":4486.53,"text":"他們是一開始在擔任這個"},{"start":4486.53,"end":4488.53,"text":"職務的時候"},{"start":4488.53,"end":4490.53,"text":"就做篩檢"},{"start":4490.53,"end":4492.53,"text":"之後是每一個月"},{"start":4492.53,"end":4494.53,"text":"還是每一天都要做篩檢"},{"start":4494.53,"end":4496.53,"text":"我現在講的是說"},{"start":4496.53,"end":4498.53,"text":"因為不管是脫衣或者是"},{"start":4498.53,"end":4500.53,"text":"尿衣他基本上"},{"start":4500.53,"end":4502.53,"text":"他大概最多就三天"},{"start":4502.53,"end":4504.53,"text":"三天他可能他的這個毒性"},{"start":4504.53,"end":4506.53,"text":"就過了 我如果是一個管理人員"},{"start":4506.53,"end":4508.53,"text":"我其實是很容易"},{"start":4508.53,"end":4510.53,"text":"來規避你們這個"},{"start":4510.53,"end":4512.53,"text":"篩檢的這個情形"},{"start":4512.53,"end":4514.53,"text":"也就是說我可能要開飛機之前"},{"start":4514.53,"end":4516.53,"text":"我三天之前我就先不要"},{"start":4516.53,"end":4518.53,"text":"使用這個毒品"},{"start":4518.53,"end":4520.53,"text":"那你就採驗不到啦"},{"start":4520.53,"end":4522.53,"text":"但是對毛髮來講他有個好處就是說"},{"start":4522.53,"end":4524.53,"text":"他至少可以知道說這個人是不是曾經"},{"start":4524.53,"end":4526.53,"text":"有過這樣的一個"},{"start":4526.53,"end":4528.53,"text":"吸毒的一個"},{"start":4528.53,"end":4530.53,"text":"這樣紀錄 那麼所以如果他在"},{"start":4530.53,"end":4532.53,"text":"一開始要擔任這個職務的時候"},{"start":4532.53,"end":4534.53,"text":"他曾經有過這樣的情形"},{"start":4534.53,"end":4536.53,"text":"那當然就要審慎考慮"},{"start":4536.53,"end":4538.53,"text":"要不要聘他來當捷運的司機"},{"start":4538.53,"end":4540.53,"text":"或是要不要"},{"start":4540.53,"end":4542.53,"text":"他可以當這個開飛機的"},{"start":4542.53,"end":4544.53,"text":"這個駕駛"},{"start":4544.53,"end":4546.53,"text":"當飛機的這個機師"},{"start":4546.53,"end":4548.53,"text":"所以我的想法是說"},{"start":4548.53,"end":4550.53,"text":"今天我們其實多一個"},{"start":4551.22,"end":4553.22,"text":"方法只是給"},{"start":4553.23,"end":4555.23,"text":"這個主管機關給現在機關"},{"start":4555.23,"end":4557.23,"text":"多一個選項而且"},{"start":4557.23,"end":4559.23,"text":"事實上他們因為所有的"},{"start":4559.23,"end":4561.23,"text":"辦法都是你們自己可以去"},{"start":4561.92,"end":4563.92,"text":"去制定的未來就是說我可以"},{"start":4563.92,"end":4565.92,"text":"先優先採取用尿液的方式"},{"start":4565.92,"end":4567.92,"text":"檢驗用唾液的方式"},{"start":4567.92,"end":4569.92,"text":"檢驗但是如果說用尿液跟"},{"start":4569.92,"end":4571.92,"text":"唾液檢驗之後還是發現"},{"start":4571.92,"end":4573.92,"text":"說這個人怪怪的其實"},{"start":4573.92,"end":4575.92,"text":"有的時候看他好像走路不太"},{"start":4575.92,"end":4577.92,"text":"穩或是說他精神有點恍惚"},{"start":4577.92,"end":4579.92,"text":"這時候其實就可以用"},{"start":4579.92,"end":4581.92,"text":"毛髮來檢測因為毛髮"},{"start":4581.92,"end":4583.92,"text":"他基本上可以從最短的時間"},{"start":4583.92,"end":4585.92,"text":"然後到最長的時間他大概"},{"start":4585.92,"end":4587.92,"text":"都可以檢測的出來"},{"start":4587.92,"end":4589.92,"text":"所以我不太了解就是說今天我們其實好意"},{"start":4589.92,"end":4591.92,"text":"就是希望給主管機關多一個"},{"start":4591.92,"end":4593.92,"text":"可以去檢查的方法"},{"start":4595.11,"end":4597.11,"text":"那至於怎麼樣的去"},{"start":4597.11,"end":4599.11,"text":"運用你們這個"},{"start":4599.11,"end":4601.11,"text":"檢驗的手段就是你們自己可以決定的"},{"start":4601.11,"end":4603.11,"text":"但是我不太知道"},{"start":4603.11,"end":4605.11,"text":"為什麼法務部一直很排斥"},{"start":4605.11,"end":4607.11,"text":"把毛髮然後針定為"},{"start":4608.86,"end":4610.86,"text":"這個檢驗的手段之一"},{"start":4612.07,"end":4614.07,"text":"可以先回答就是你們檢驗次數"},{"start":4614.07,"end":4616.07,"text":"還有平常的檢驗的這個期間"},{"start":4618.74,"end":4620.74,"text":"然後"},{"start":4620.59,"end":4622.59,"text":"次長再來回應一下"},{"start":4622.59,"end":4624.59,"text":"三條三條"},{"start":4624.59,"end":4626.59,"text":"都總共23案"},{"start":4626.59,"end":4628.59,"text":"3案有提到毛髮"},{"start":4628.59,"end":4630.59,"text":"那當然翁委員"},{"start":4630.59,"end":4632.59,"text":"提到那個部分"},{"start":4632.59,"end":4634.59,"text":"那確實是屬於犯罪偵查"},{"start":4634.59,"end":4636.59,"text":"那次長講的就是說"},{"start":4636.59,"end":4638.59,"text":"這個出院的時候"},{"start":4638.59,"end":4640.59,"text":"是要那種即時性的"},{"start":4640.59,"end":4642.59,"text":"所以我多一個拖曳進來就可以"},{"start":4642.59,"end":4644.59,"text":"那問題是說"},{"start":4644.59,"end":4646.59,"text":"那翁委員的講法似乎是在講說"},{"start":4646.59,"end":4648.59,"text":"你毒品危害防治條例裡面"},{"start":4648.59,"end":4650.59,"text":"那個主管機關我被發現的時候"},{"start":4652.96,"end":4654.96,"text":"我用其他的方式來"},{"start":4654.96,"end":4656.96,"text":"我沒一定單純要處理即時性的"},{"start":4656.96,"end":4658.96,"text":"我可能也會認為說"},{"start":4658.96,"end":4660.96,"text":"我所受我監督的人"},{"start":4660.96,"end":4662.96,"text":"他到底是不是"},{"start":4662.96,"end":4664.96,"text":"過去他如果也有施用毒品的話"},{"start":4664.96,"end":4666.96,"text":"他確實啊"},{"start":4666.96,"end":4668.96,"text":"你就算是要"},{"start":4668.96,"end":4670.96,"text":"要針對這一些"},{"start":4670.96,"end":4672.96,"text":"駕駛人員不管是航空"},{"start":4672.96,"end":4674.96,"text":"捷運或者說"},{"start":4674.96,"end":4676.96,"text":"反正就是動力的部分"},{"start":4676.96,"end":4678.96,"text":"這個人來塞出來"},{"start":4678.96,"end":4680.96,"text":"他也有這樣"},{"start":4680.96,"end":4682.96,"text":"用毒品的一個習慣的話"},{"start":4682.96,"end":4684.96,"text":"這未必屬於犯罪偵查"},{"start":4684.96,"end":4686.96,"text":"他讓我塞出來以後"},{"start":4686.96,"end":4688.96,"text":"我覺得這個人都不適宜"},{"start":4688.96,"end":4690.96,"text":"來當這一些"},{"start":4690.96,"end":4692.96,"text":"駕駛人員"},{"start":4692.96,"end":4694.96,"text":"問題在這個地方"},{"start":4694.96,"end":4696.96,"text":"那請聽起來有道理"},{"start":4696.96,"end":4698.96,"text":"那請次長再回應一下"},{"start":4698.96,"end":4700.96,"text":"好 跟委員報告"},{"start":4700.96,"end":4702.96,"text":"那我應該提到這個篩檢的頻度"},{"start":4702.96,"end":4704.96,"text":"頻率的問題"},{"start":4704.96,"end":4706.96,"text":"其實我們的這個法通過"},{"start":4706.96,"end":4708.96,"text":"這個法的授權辦法其實有定相關的"},{"start":4708.96,"end":4710.96,"text":"包括定期的篩檢"},{"start":4710.96,"end":4712.96,"text":"跟不定期的篩檢"},{"start":4712.96,"end":4714.96,"text":"那授權在授權各目的主管機關"},{"start":4714.96,"end":4716.96,"text":"我剛講有十個目的主管機關"},{"start":4716.96,"end":4718.96,"text":"各自在計定怎麼樣"},{"start":4718.96,"end":4720.96,"text":"更細部的一個"},{"start":4720.96,"end":4722.96,"text":"事務性的篩檢方法"},{"start":4722.96,"end":4724.96,"text":"那這個辦法裡面除了定期篩檢"},{"start":4724.96,"end":4726.96,"text":"還有不定期的篩檢"},{"start":4726.96,"end":4728.96,"text":"什麼叫不定期篩檢包括受僱篩檢"},{"start":4728.96,"end":4730.96,"text":"包括懷疑檢驗意外檢驗"},{"start":4730.96,"end":4732.96,"text":"隨機檢驗"},{"start":4732.96,"end":4734.96,"text":"很多 換句話就是說主管機關"},{"start":4734.96,"end":4736.96,"text":"他可以各自"},{"start":4736.96,"end":4738.96,"text":"行政目的他可以做相關的頻度"},{"start":4738.96,"end":4740.96,"text":"的這個篩檢"},{"start":4740.96,"end":4742.96,"text":"所以剛委員所提到的"},{"start":4742.96,"end":4744.96,"text":"除了定期之外還有不定期還有各種"},{"start":4744.96,"end":4746.96,"text":"狀況他都可以篩檢"},{"start":4746.96,"end":4748.96,"text":"主管機關都可以篩檢"},{"start":4748.96,"end":4750.96,"text":"舉個例子譬如說交通部或內政部"},{"start":4750.96,"end":4752.96,"text":"他們現在的辦法是怎麼定的"},{"start":4752.96,"end":4754.96,"text":"因為我們其實沒有看到這個"},{"start":4754.96,"end":4756.96,"text":"更細緻的檢驗"},{"start":4756.96,"end":4758.96,"text":"的作業辦法"},{"start":4758.96,"end":4760.96,"text":"他們是每一個禮拜到"},{"start":4760.96,"end":4762.96,"text":"檢查一次還是他們是上飛機"},{"start":4762.96,"end":4764.96,"text":"還是就是要開始"},{"start":4764.96,"end":4766.96,"text":"執行他們工作之前就要檢驗"},{"start":4766.96,"end":4768.96,"text":"因為我是認為說這個剛剛"},{"start":4768.96,"end":4770.96,"text":"其實次長的這邊"},{"start":4770.96,"end":4772.96,"text":"說法有些地方是我不太能接受的"},{"start":4772.96,"end":4774.96,"text":"你說剪頭髮"},{"start":4774.96,"end":4776.96,"text":"就是一種強制"},{"start":4776.96,"end":4778.96,"text":"會侵害到個人的這個"},{"start":4778.96,"end":4780.96,"text":"尊嚴會"},{"start":4780.96,"end":4782.96,"text":"有這個侵害人格權之餘"},{"start":4782.96,"end":4784.96,"text":"但你說如果說今天去尿解"},{"start":4784.96,"end":4786.96,"text":"也是一樣啊如果當事人他就"},{"start":4786.96,"end":4788.96,"text":"不願意尿解或他不願意"},{"start":4788.96,"end":4790.96,"text":"把他嘴巴張開去進行"},{"start":4790.96,"end":4792.96,"text":"脫衣的篩檢這就同樣是"},{"start":4792.96,"end":4794.96,"text":"侵害個人的人格權"},{"start":4794.96,"end":4796.96,"text":"所以其實如果說對我一個"},{"start":4796.96,"end":4798.96,"text":"假設我今天我是相關的工作人員"},{"start":4798.96,"end":4800.96,"text":"我今天要被檢視"},{"start":4800.96,"end":4802.96,"text":"我寧可就說你就幫我反正"},{"start":4802.96,"end":4804.96,"text":"女生頭髮長我就剪個幾根"},{"start":4804.96,"end":4806.96,"text":"你不可能剪一搓吧"},{"start":4806.96,"end":4808.96,"text":"對不對他就剪個幾根頭髮"},{"start":4808.96,"end":4810.96,"text":"就可以去檢驗了"},{"start":4810.96,"end":4812.96,"text":"對就這個部分來講其實"},{"start":4812.96,"end":4814.96,"text":"剛剛部長的說法其實不太能說服我"},{"start":4814.96,"end":4816.96,"text":"抱歉我想補充一下"},{"start":4816.96,"end":4818.96,"text":"就是說因為這裡面還有包含"},{"start":4818.96,"end":4820.96,"text":"到學校的學生對嗎"},{"start":4820.96,"end":4822.96,"text":"我剛剛聽起來是這樣子"},{"start":4822.96,"end":4824.96,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":4825.47,"end":4827.47,"text":"是有學生嗎"},{"start":4827.47,"end":4829.47,"text":"因為主管機關所監督之特定人員"},{"start":4829.47,"end":4831.47,"text":"這個有包含到學生嘛對不對"},{"start":4832.39,"end":4834.39,"text":"對啊因為有學生那我覺得這東西"},{"start":4834.39,"end":4836.39,"text":"如果去增加毛髮的話"},{"start":4836.39,"end":4838.39,"text":"我自己會擔心這個是現場"},{"start":4838.39,"end":4840.39,"text":"在執行面會造成老師"},{"start":4840.39,"end":4842.39,"text":"的困難喔"},{"start":4842.39,"end":4844.39,"text":"因為這個是過去我們之所以法禁"},{"start":4844.39,"end":4846.39,"text":"的時候有很多的人"},{"start":4846.39,"end":4848.39,"text":"其實都會可能都有那個"},{"start":4848.39,"end":4850.39,"text":"經驗那所以大家其實對於"},{"start":4850.39,"end":4852.39,"text":"自己的毛髮屬於自己個人的形象"},{"start":4852.39,"end":4854.39,"text":"在現在的年輕世代是"},{"start":4854.39,"end":4856.39,"text":"更根深蒂固的所以我覺得"},{"start":4856.39,"end":4858.39,"text":"如果今天要拓展這件事情的話等於"},{"start":4858.39,"end":4860.39,"text":"我們開放了這樣子的授權"},{"start":4860.39,"end":4862.39,"text":"我擔心這會造成現場的"},{"start":4862.39,"end":4864.39,"text":"青師生的衝突會更加劇烈"},{"start":4864.39,"end":4866.39,"text":"所以我這個意見"},{"start":4866.39,"end":4868.39,"text":"我也想要聽聽看這個法務部的意見"},{"start":4868.39,"end":4870.39,"text":"是不是有考量到這個部分"},{"start":4870.39,"end":4872.39,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4873.01,"end":4875.01,"text":"好那跟我們報告了"},{"start":4875.64,"end":4877.64,"text":"無論是採取妙意"},{"start":4877.64,"end":4879.64,"text":"脫意或毛髮或血液當然對人生"},{"start":4879.64,"end":4881.64,"text":"自以為人格權都會產生干預"},{"start":4881.64,"end":4883.64,"text":"這是無庸置疑"},{"start":4882.81,"end":4884.81,"text":"所以我們必須要法律規定"},{"start":4884.81,"end":4886.81,"text":"所以我們今天必須要有法律的授權我們才可以做"},{"start":4886.81,"end":4888.81,"text":"只是說各種法律的干預"},{"start":4888.81,"end":4890.81,"text":"人身自由的干預"},{"start":4890.81,"end":4892.81,"text":"它有不同的強度"},{"start":4892.81,"end":4894.81,"text":"行政上目的的強度還是"},{"start":4894.81,"end":4896.81,"text":"犯罪偵查的強度"},{"start":4896.81,"end":4898.81,"text":"我們今天就行政目的的強度我們開放"},{"start":4898.81,"end":4900.81,"text":"妙意跟脫意我覺得這個"},{"start":4900.81,"end":4902.81,"text":"這個對人生"},{"start":4902.81,"end":4904.81,"text":"因為就法律授權我們就允許"},{"start":4904.81,"end":4906.81,"text":"但是對毛髮各位委員"},{"start":4906.81,"end":4908.81,"text":"我們毛髮要做"},{"start":4908.81,"end":4910.81,"text":"鑑定我們刑訴"},{"start":4910.81,"end":4912.81,"text":"法律訴訟法205條之二"},{"start":4912.81,"end":4914.81,"text":"他必須要是逮捕的現行犯"},{"start":4914.81,"end":4916.81,"text":"是把警察才可以採他的毛髮"},{"start":4918.65,"end":4920.65,"text":"那你如果說是要學藝的話"},{"start":4920.65,"end":4922.65,"text":"要205之一要檢察官的"},{"start":4922.65,"end":4924.65,"text":"令狀許可法官的令狀許可"},{"start":4924.65,"end":4926.65,"text":"才可以進入採毛髮才學藝"},{"start":4926.65,"end":4928.65,"text":"所以他是不同的人格權"},{"start":4928.65,"end":4930.65,"text":"或這個"},{"start":4930.65,"end":4932.65,"text":"這個人身自由權的干預"},{"start":4932.65,"end":4934.65,"text":"他要法律做不同的保障"},{"start":4935.11,"end":4937.11,"text":"所以我們今天為什麼要"},{"start":4937.11,"end":4939.11,"text":"要進入大院同意他的確會造成人格的侵害"},{"start":4939.11,"end":4941.11,"text":"沒有錯即使是妙意"},{"start":4941.11,"end":4943.11,"text":"即使是脫意都會啊"},{"start":4943.34,"end":4945.34,"text":"所以才需要法律來規範"},{"start":4945.34,"end":4947.34,"text":"這跟委員報告"},{"start":4947.34,"end":4949.34,"text":"另外剛剛這個"},{"start":4949.34,"end":4951.34,"text":"委員有提到的確教育部剛剛"},{"start":4951.34,"end":4953.34,"text":"所管理的範圍他就包括"},{"start":4953.34,"end":4955.34,"text":"學生他最主要"},{"start":4955.34,"end":4957.34,"text":"大眾都是學生"},{"start":4957.34,"end":4959.34,"text":"大眾都是學生"},{"start":4959.34,"end":4961.34,"text":"所以說我跟委員報告"},{"start":4961.34,"end":4963.34,"text":"就是說如果說委員當天"},{"start":4963.34,"end":4965.34,"text":"提到可以毛髮多一個選擇"},{"start":4965.34,"end":4967.34,"text":"沒什麼不好"},{"start":4967.34,"end":4969.34,"text":"除了我剛剛講的人格權"},{"start":4969.34,"end":4971.34,"text":"的這個一例之外另外就是說"},{"start":4971.34,"end":4973.34,"text":"讓學生選擇的話"},{"start":4973.34,"end":4975.34,"text":"各位就是說"},{"start":4974.65,"end":4976.65,"text":"這毛髮的鑑定結果也許"},{"start":4976.65,"end":4978.65,"text":"要半個月一個月後"},{"start":4978.65,"end":4980.65,"text":"才會結果出來"},{"start":4980.65,"end":4982.65,"text":"那我們當下要不要認定他有沒有"},{"start":4982.65,"end":4984.65,"text":"使用毒品我其實不知道"},{"start":4984.77,"end":4986.77,"text":"我其實不知道"},{"start":4986.77,"end":4988.77,"text":"我必須要等一個月後等半個月後"},{"start":4988.77,"end":4990.77,"text":"甚至等兩個月後才知道他"},{"start":4990.77,"end":4992.77,"text":"到底有沒有使用毒品"},{"start":4992.77,"end":4994.77,"text":"他就會喪失這個法定的立法目的"},{"start":4996.7,"end":4998.7,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":4998.7,"end":5000.7,"text":"我想講的就是"},{"start":5000.7,"end":5002.7,"text":"其實我們現在講的所有的"},{"start":5002.7,"end":5004.7,"text":"檢驗手段如果說"},{"start":5004.7,"end":5006.7,"text":"當事人他拒絕接受"},{"start":5006.7,"end":5008.7,"text":"檢驗那肯定你們就會進入到"},{"start":5008.7,"end":5010.7,"text":"下一個階段"},{"start":5010.7,"end":5012.7,"text":"就是要去拘提要去強制"},{"start":5012.7,"end":5014.7,"text":"他的人身自由"},{"start":5014.7,"end":5016.7,"text":"強制要去驗尿強制"},{"start":5016.7,"end":5018.7,"text":"他嘴巴要張開接受這個唾液的"},{"start":5018.7,"end":5020.7,"text":"篩檢那麼我覺得"},{"start":5020.7,"end":5022.7,"text":"剛剛這個次長講的"},{"start":5022.7,"end":5024.7,"text":"就是對於這個人格權"},{"start":5024.7,"end":5026.7,"text":"或是人身自由的拘束的強度來講"},{"start":5026.7,"end":5028.7,"text":"我反而是跟次長有不同的見解"},{"start":5030.3,"end":5032.3,"text":"事實上你說頭髮"},{"start":5032.3,"end":5034.3,"text":"這個把他抱起來"},{"start":5034.3,"end":5036.3,"text":"稍微剪一下頭髮假設他不願意的話"},{"start":5036.3,"end":5038.3,"text":"他不願意就是用頭髮"},{"start":5038.3,"end":5040.3,"text":"去篩檢的話那基本上我覺得"},{"start":5040.3,"end":5042.3,"text":"那個侵入性反而是"},{"start":5042.3,"end":5044.3,"text":"不是很嚴重如果說"},{"start":5044.3,"end":5046.3,"text":"今天是拒絕尿檢的話"},{"start":5046.3,"end":5048.3,"text":"待會可以請次長說明一下"},{"start":5048.3,"end":5050.3,"text":"如果拒絕尿檢你們是怎麼樣的去檢驗法"},{"start":5051.36,"end":5053.36,"text":"更何況就是說現在毛髮的"},{"start":5053.36,"end":5055.36,"text":"檢驗他並不是"},{"start":5055.36,"end":5057.36,"text":"像您講的要這麼長的時間"},{"start":5057.36,"end":5059.36,"text":"尿液的一般的篩檢"},{"start":5059.36,"end":5061.36,"text":"是當場就可以看得到的嗎"},{"start":5061.36,"end":5063.36,"text":"應該也不是吧"},{"start":5063.36,"end":5065.36,"text":"應該也是要送回實驗室"},{"start":5065.36,"end":5067.36,"text":"可能幾天之後也許才看得到"},{"start":5067.36,"end":5069.36,"text":"其實毛髮的情況"},{"start":5069.36,"end":5071.36,"text":"也是一樣今天如果說"},{"start":5071.36,"end":5073.36,"text":"我們法律訂立下去"},{"start":5073.36,"end":5075.36,"text":"然後未來可以有"},{"start":5075.36,"end":5077.36,"text":"多一個檢測的手段"},{"start":5077.36,"end":5079.36,"text":"那我想相關的實驗室他們量能"},{"start":5079.36,"end":5081.36,"text":"都會增加甚至法務部"},{"start":5081.36,"end":5083.36,"text":"或是調查局刑事警察局"},{"start":5083.36,"end":5085.36,"text":"你們認為說應該要提高"},{"start":5085.36,"end":5087.36,"text":"量能的話"},{"start":5087.36,"end":5089.36,"text":"或者是相關檢驗設備"},{"start":5089.36,"end":5091.36,"text":"本行在這邊都支持"},{"start":5091.36,"end":5093.36,"text":"我想講的就是說因為今天"},{"start":5093.36,"end":5095.36,"text":"這是一個行政管理"},{"start":5095.47,"end":5097.47,"text":"就是因為行政管理其實對於"},{"start":5097.47,"end":5099.47,"text":"就是受檢查的"},{"start":5099.47,"end":5101.47,"text":"相關的不管是公務員"},{"start":5101.47,"end":5103.47,"text":"還有一般的這個"},{"start":5103.47,"end":5105.47,"text":"跟一般的這個員工等等的"},{"start":5105.47,"end":5107.47,"text":"那麼其實就讓他們覺得說"},{"start":5107.47,"end":5109.47,"text":"他們怎麼樣的檢查是覺得"},{"start":5109.47,"end":5111.47,"text":"很方便而且很快速"},{"start":5111.47,"end":5113.47,"text":"然後至於就是說你們"},{"start":5113.47,"end":5115.47,"text":"檢查是時間的長短這是回到"},{"start":5115.47,"end":5117.47,"text":"主管機關的事情可是如果說"},{"start":5117.47,"end":5119.47,"text":"因為一定要去驗尿"},{"start":5119.47,"end":5121.47,"text":"然後要去"},{"start":5121.47,"end":5123.47,"text":"做唾液唾液當然他比較"},{"start":5123.47,"end":5125.47,"text":"快速可是他的偽陽性很高"},{"start":5125.47,"end":5127.47,"text":"他的偽陽性很高"},{"start":5127.47,"end":5129.47,"text":"這也跟這個唾液"},{"start":5129.47,"end":5131.47,"text":"篩檢的"},{"start":5131.47,"end":5133.47,"text":"他的篩檢劑的品質"},{"start":5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黃委員這樣可以說服你買人"},{"start":5711.31,"end":5713.31,"text":"我還想聽聽看次長"},{"start":5713.31,"end":5715.31,"text":"對於拒絕尿檢"},{"start":5715.31,"end":5717.31,"text":"拒絕唾液篩檢的人"},{"start":5717.31,"end":5719.31,"text":"你們的執行方式是什麼"},{"start":5719.31,"end":5721.31,"text":"可不可以請你講一下"},{"start":5721.31,"end":5723.31,"text":"整個流程好不好"},{"start":5723.31,"end":5725.31,"text":"又可以讓我們知道到底他侵害人格的強度"},{"start":5725.31,"end":5727.31,"text":"跟這個去檢頭法"},{"start":5727.31,"end":5729.31,"text":"的強度是哪一個比較強"},{"start":5729.31,"end":5731.31,"text":"而且我剛剛講了"},{"start":5731.31,"end":5733.31,"text":"他除了出任可能需要做檢驗"},{"start":5733.31,"end":5735.31,"text":"之後你隨便舉一個單位"},{"start":5735.31,"end":5737.31,"text":"譬如說交通部"},{"start":5737.31,"end":5739.31,"text":"你們現在應該有相關的辦法"},{"start":5739.31,"end":5741.31,"text":"想一想他們大概是多久會做"},{"start":5741.31,"end":5743.31,"text":"定期的篩檢"},{"start":5745.82,"end":5747.82,"text":"來次長"},{"start":5747.45,"end":5749.45,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":5749.48,"end":5751.48,"text":"啊"},{"start":5750.81,"end":5752.81,"text":"當然委員可以提供各種"},{"start":5752.81,"end":5754.81,"text":"方法來提供檢驗"},{"start":5754.81,"end":5756.81,"text":"當然就行政機關的角度來講"},{"start":5756.81,"end":5758.81,"text":"當然理論上是越多越好"},{"start":5758.81,"end":5760.81,"text":"甚至不僅毛法你包括"},{"start":5760.81,"end":5762.81,"text":"血液甚至條文裡面授權說"},{"start":5762.81,"end":5764.81,"text":"其他可行的方法都授權行政機關"},{"start":5764.81,"end":5766.81,"text":"來處理當然這是"},{"start":5766.81,"end":5768.81,"text":"行政機關沒有人會反對"},{"start":5768.81,"end":5770.81,"text":"只是站在一個"},{"start":5770.81,"end":5772.81,"text":"法規的主管機關來講"},{"start":5772.81,"end":5774.81,"text":"我們必須要再次強調就是說"},{"start":5774.81,"end":5776.81,"text":"檢驗方法裡面"},{"start":5776.81,"end":5778.81,"text":"他必須要有層級化不同的處理"},{"start":5778.81,"end":5780.81,"text":"我們現在血液的檢驗方法"},{"start":5780.81,"end":5782.81,"text":"我們憲判制連警察"},{"start":5782.81,"end":5784.81,"text":"我們111憲判一致"},{"start":5784.81,"end":5786.81,"text":"警察在造勢之後"},{"start":5786.81,"end":5788.81,"text":"抽血這種抽血都被憲告違憲了"},{"start":5788.81,"end":5790.81,"text":"血液被憲告違憲"},{"start":5790.81,"end":5792.81,"text":"然後我們205-2"},{"start":5792.81,"end":5794.81,"text":"毛法他是僅限於"},{"start":5794.81,"end":5796.81,"text":"司法警察逮捕中的憲級犯才可以去採毛法"},{"start":5798.08,"end":5800.08,"text":"這是犯罪偵查都已經保障到這種程度"},{"start":5801.4,"end":5803.4,"text":"那在這一條是行政管理"},{"start":5803.4,"end":5805.4,"text":"行政目的上"},{"start":5805.4,"end":5807.4,"text":"要不要開放授權到這個程度"},{"start":5807.4,"end":5809.4,"text":"我再次強調行政機關"},{"start":5809.4,"end":5811.4,"text":"越多檢驗的工具我們越歡迎"},{"start":5811.4,"end":5813.4,"text":"只是我站在一個目的"},{"start":5813.4,"end":5815.4,"text":"法規的目的主管機關"},{"start":5815.4,"end":5817.4,"text":"我們必須要做法律人該講的話"},{"start":5817.4,"end":5819.4,"text":"這個我必須要再次強調"},{"start":5819.4,"end":5821.4,"text":"剛剛委員一直在強調"},{"start":5821.4,"end":5823.4,"text":"就是說假如拒絕的話"},{"start":5823.4,"end":5825.4,"text":"應該怎麼辦"},{"start":5825.4,"end":5827.4,"text":"我們33條"},{"start":5827.4,"end":5829.4,"text":"的規範如果這個"},{"start":5829.4,"end":5831.4,"text":"裁員拒絕的話"},{"start":5831.4,"end":5833.4,"text":"條子規定可以拘束他的身體行政"},{"start":5833.4,"end":5835.4,"text":"只可以拘束他的身體"},{"start":5835.4,"end":5837.4,"text":"沒有進一步規範的"},{"start":5838.85,"end":5840.85,"text":"我昨天可是看了那個辦法"},{"start":5840.85,"end":5842.85,"text":"你們要不要把你們定的"},{"start":5842.85,"end":5844.85,"text":"那個授權辦法仔細的去拿出來看"},{"start":5844.85,"end":5846.85,"text":"我們都有看"},{"start":5846.85,"end":5848.85,"text":"大家都有看"},{"start":5848.85,"end":5850.85,"text":"他就是必要是他就是母法"},{"start":5850.85,"end":5852.85,"text":"拘束他的身體行政"},{"start":5853.31,"end":5855.31,"text":"有定定嘛"},{"start":5855.93,"end":5857.93,"text":"17條啊"},{"start":5857.16,"end":5859.16,"text":"33條的第二項"},{"start":5859.16,"end":5861.16,"text":"前項特定人員的範圍及"},{"start":5861.16,"end":5863.16,"text":"採驗尿液的辦法"},{"start":5863.16,"end":5865.16,"text":"遊行政院定制"},{"start":5865.16,"end":5867.16,"text":"所以我有看到你們採驗尿液的實施"},{"start":5867.16,"end":5869.16,"text":"辦法啊"},{"start":5869.16,"end":5871.16,"text":"第七條必要時的拘束性身體行政"},{"start":5871.16,"end":5873.16,"text":"然後呢程序呢"},{"start":5873.16,"end":5875.16,"text":"程序的話是要有人"},{"start":5875.16,"end":5877.16,"text":"陪著進去那個廁所裡面"},{"start":5878.79,"end":5880.79,"text":"然後來協助採尿耶"},{"start":5883.35,"end":5885.35,"text":"對啊這採尿跟拘束神聖自由沒有衝突"},{"start":5885.35,"end":5887.35,"text":"協助採尿跟拘束神聖自由沒有關係嗎"},{"start":5887.35,"end":5889.35,"text":"一個人在旁邊看"},{"start":5889.35,"end":5891.35,"text":"看有沒有尿"},{"start":5891.35,"end":5893.35,"text":"有沒有排尿"},{"start":5893.35,"end":5895.35,"text":"那是怕避免他掉包啊"},{"start":5895.35,"end":5897.35,"text":"那本來就是辦法裡面有規定啊"},{"start":5897.35,"end":5899.35,"text":"所以你會覺得說這樣子對於侵害人格"},{"start":5899.35,"end":5901.35,"text":"侵害人身自由的強度"},{"start":5901.35,"end":5903.35,"text":"反而比較低"},{"start":5903.35,"end":5905.35,"text":"然後呢這個去剪一個頭髮"},{"start":5905.35,"end":5907.35,"text":"他的強度還比較高"},{"start":5907.35,"end":5909.35,"text":"所以我就講這就是我覺得"},{"start":5909.35,"end":5911.35,"text":"很大的觀念上的不同對於很多的"},{"start":5911.35,"end":5913.35,"text":"的公務員來講我覺得也許不見得能夠接受"},{"start":5913.35,"end":5915.35,"text":"像您這樣的說法"},{"start":5915.35,"end":5917.35,"text":"更何況我們這樣講就是"},{"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最後醫生以上我再強調我的意見"},{"start":6037.41,"end":6039.41,"text":"這有一個問題"},{"start":6039.41,"end":6041.41,"text":"我來釐清一下"},{"start":6041.41,"end":6043.41,"text":"就是說在座所有的委員"},{"start":6043.41,"end":6045.41,"text":"跟所有的官員"},{"start":6045.41,"end":6047.41,"text":"沒有任何跡象的話"},{"start":6047.41,"end":6049.41,"text":"沒有人可以來跟你講說"},{"start":6049.41,"end":6051.41,"text":"來你的一支頭髮"},{"start":6051.41,"end":6053.41,"text":"你的頭髮我要來"},{"start":6053.41,"end":6055.41,"text":"來驗看看你到底有沒有吸毒"},{"start":6055.41,"end":6057.41,"text":"都不行"},{"start":6056.62,"end":6058.62,"text":"這個都不行"},{"start":6058.62,"end":6060.62,"text":"那你現在就是說"},{"start":6060.62,"end":6062.62,"text":"我看這個幾個部門的監督機關裡面"},{"start":6062.62,"end":6064.62,"text":"行政的"},{"start":6066.1,"end":6068.1,"text":"對他的監督的人員"},{"start":6068.1,"end":6070.1,"text":"不管你是來證保"},{"start":6073.65,"end":6075.65,"text":"像這個他覺得說"},{"start":6075.65,"end":6077.65,"text":"我受我監督的對象"},{"start":6077.65,"end":6079.65,"text":"他可能會有這樣的一個"},{"start":6079.65,"end":6081.65,"text":"比較有去"},{"start":6081.65,"end":6083.65,"text":"適用毒品嗎"},{"start":6083.65,"end":6085.65,"text":"所以他覺得說要來給他"},{"start":6085.65,"end":6087.65,"text":"做驗驗那種即時性的"},{"start":6088.02,"end":6090.02,"text":"那各位去看內政部"},{"start":6090.02,"end":6092.02,"text":"這個副表裡面"},{"start":6092.61,"end":6094.61,"text":"內政部也好"},{"start":6094.61,"end":6096.61,"text":"國防部也好"},{"start":6096.61,"end":6098.61,"text":"或者教育部也好"},{"start":6098.61,"end":6100.61,"text":"法務部也好"},{"start":6100.61,"end":6102.61,"text":"就是說你如果來證保"},{"start":6102.61,"end":6104.61,"text":"就是說他就針對生活情報不正當"},{"start":6104.61,"end":6106.61,"text":"有適用毒品嫌疑的這些警察人員"},{"start":6106.61,"end":6108.61,"text":"或是說跟那個"},{"start":6108.61,"end":6110.61,"text":"那個警察"},{"start":6110.61,"end":6112.61,"text":"跟那個毒販平反去做交往"},{"start":6112.61,"end":6114.61,"text":"或是說你"},{"start":6114.61,"end":6116.61,"text":"毒品檢驗跟那個政務"},{"start":6116.61,"end":6118.61,"text":"是保管的警察人員"},{"start":6118.61,"end":6120.61,"text":"或是說那個替代役的"},{"start":6120.61,"end":6122.61,"text":"他就覺得認為"},{"start":6122.61,"end":6124.61,"text":"事實中認為可能"},{"start":6124.61,"end":6126.61,"text":"用毒品"},{"start":6126.61,"end":6128.61,"text":"針對這些"},{"start":6128.61,"end":6130.61,"text":"他內政部的副表就是說"},{"start":6130.61,"end":6132.61,"text":"這些人的一個尿疫的一個"},{"start":6132.61,"end":6134.61,"text":"採驗的一個辦法"},{"start":6134.61,"end":6136.61,"text":"說我受我監督的人"},{"start":6136.61,"end":6138.61,"text":"我要用"},{"start":6138.61,"end":6140.61,"text":"這樣的方式"},{"start":6140.61,"end":6142.61,"text":"那你至於說我要去再用"},{"start":6142.61,"end":6144.61,"text":"去毛髮的方式"},{"start":6144.61,"end":6146.61,"text":"那個是涉及到我也認為"},{"start":6146.61,"end":6148.61,"text":"那個是屬於刑事訴訟法裡面的"},{"start":6148.61,"end":6150.61,"text":"偵查"},{"start":6150.18,"end":6152.18,"text":"那去應對的部分喔"},{"start":6152.18,"end":6154.18,"text":"那你如果說沒有"},{"start":6154.18,"end":6156.18,"text":"刑事訴訟法在犯罪偵查"},{"start":6156.18,"end":6158.18,"text":"你說檢察官或警察"},{"start":6158.18,"end":6160.18,"text":"他也不能去馬路邊抓一個人"},{"start":6160.18,"end":6162.18,"text":"就給他抓去跟他說我要給你驗尿"},{"start":6162.18,"end":6164.18,"text":"驗唾液"},{"start":6164.18,"end":6166.18,"text":"甚至要來採毛髮"},{"start":6166.18,"end":6168.18,"text":"也不行耶"},{"start":6168.18,"end":6170.18,"text":"所以我們在這個地方33條"},{"start":6170.18,"end":6172.18,"text":"請各位再看一下"},{"start":6172.18,"end":6174.18,"text":"33條這個是在"},{"start":6174.18,"end":6176.18,"text":"針對主管機關"},{"start":6176.18,"end":6178.18,"text":"對於他所屬跟監督的"},{"start":6178.18,"end":6180.18,"text":"人員"},{"start":6180.18,"end":6182.18,"text":"就是在說內政部、國防部"},{"start":6182.18,"end":6184.18,"text":"教育部"},{"start":6184.18,"end":6186.18,"text":"還有法務部"},{"start":6186.18,"end":6188.18,"text":"是在說這些"},{"start":6188.18,"end":6190.18,"text":"還有經濟部、交通部"},{"start":6190.18,"end":6192.18,"text":"是在說這些的人"},{"start":6192.18,"end":6194.18,"text":"不是對一般的一個民眾"},{"start":6195.2,"end":6197.2,"text":"市長我這樣說對啦"},{"start":6197.2,"end":6199.2,"text":"就針對這一些"},{"start":6199.1,"end":6201.1,"text":"針對這一些就是說"},{"start":6201.1,"end":6203.1,"text":"要不要迅速來知道"},{"start":6203.21,"end":6205.21,"text":"他有犯罪、沒有犯罪"},{"start":6205.21,"end":6207.21,"text":"那就是另外一回事"},{"start":6207.21,"end":6209.21,"text":"他如果有犯罪"},{"start":6209.21,"end":6211.21,"text":"譬如說有犯罪嫌疑"},{"start":6211.21,"end":6213.21,"text":"發現有毒品"},{"start":6213.21,"end":6215.21,"text":"就開始警察機關戒錄"},{"start":6215.21,"end":6217.21,"text":"或者報警檢察官"},{"start":6217.21,"end":6219.21,"text":"就開始去"},{"start":6219.21,"end":6221.21,"text":"啟動刑事上偵查"},{"start":6221.21,"end":6223.21,"text":"那個當然會有毛髮的問題"},{"start":6223.21,"end":6225.21,"text":"那就可以了"},{"start":6225.21,"end":6227.21,"text":"但是現在出院的部分"},{"start":6227.21,"end":6229.21,"text":"是不是要"},{"start":6229.21,"end":6231.21,"text":"歐委員的部分你把毛髮也放進去"},{"start":6231.21,"end":6233.21,"text":"確實要再考量一下"},{"start":6233.21,"end":6235.21,"text":"歐委員你用心良苦"},{"start":6235.21,"end":6237.21,"text":"我都知道"},{"start":6237.21,"end":6239.21,"text":"但是我去我建議你"},{"start":6239.21,"end":6241.21,"text":"我建議你"},{"start":6241.21,"end":6243.21,"text":"我知道你對這個部分有準備"},{"start":6243.21,"end":6245.21,"text":"但問題就是說大家會有"},{"start":6245.21,"end":6247.21,"text":"不一樣的一個看法"},{"start":6247.21,"end":6249.21,"text":"學者專家"},{"start":6249.21,"end":6251.21,"text":"甚至於連法務部"},{"start":6251.21,"end":6253.21,"text":"他都認為這個都已經"},{"start":6253.21,"end":6255.21,"text":"違反比例原則了"},{"start":6255.21,"end":6257.21,"text":"有一點這個武器給的過多"},{"start":6257.21,"end":6259.21,"text":"來 再來換誰"},{"start":6259.21,"end":6261.21,"text":"來 先讓范委員講一下"},{"start":6261.21,"end":6263.21,"text":"三條而已我陪你們"},{"start":6263.21,"end":6265.21,"text":"好 我想這個毒品"},{"start":6265.21,"end":6267.21,"text":"真的是非常重要"},{"start":6267.21,"end":6269.21,"text":"也是非常嚴重的議題"},{"start":6269.21,"end":6271.21,"text":"那其實它現在是個全球的議題"},{"start":6271.21,"end":6273.21,"text":"因為根據聯合國的世界"},{"start":6273.21,"end":6275.21,"text":"毒品報告"},{"start":6275.21,"end":6277.21,"text":"全球15歲到64歲"},{"start":6277.21,"end":6279.21,"text":"人口有6.2%"},{"start":6279.21,"end":6281.21,"text":"都曾經"},{"start":6281.21,"end":6283.21,"text":"使用過毒品"},{"start":6283.21,"end":6285.21,"text":"那它相關的報告也講就是"},{"start":6285.21,"end":6287.21,"text":"其實這個新型的合成毒品"},{"start":6287.21,"end":6289.21,"text":"不斷的在變化研發"},{"start":6289.21,"end":6291.21,"text":"新的內容那一直在"},{"start":6291.21,"end":6293.21,"text":"躲避法規跟逃避偵測"},{"start":6293.21,"end":6295.21,"text":"所以到底是"},{"start":6295.21,"end":6297.21,"text":"如何能夠檢測出其實真的是"},{"start":6297.21,"end":6299.21,"text":"一個高難度也很重要的事"},{"start":6299.21,"end":6301.21,"text":"而我之前質詢的時候"},{"start":6301.21,"end":6303.21,"text":"一直強調我認為"},{"start":6303.21,"end":6305.21,"text":"這是檢測非常的重要"},{"start":6305.21,"end":6307.21,"text":"但是源頭管制"},{"start":6307.21,"end":6309.21,"text":"那也是非常根本的"},{"start":6309.21,"end":6311.21,"text":"事情希望法務部能夠"},{"start":6311.21,"end":6313.21,"text":"重視這個部分但我們今天討論"},{"start":6313.21,"end":6315.21,"text":"的是這個主管機關"},{"start":6315.21,"end":6317.21,"text":"對於所屬或監督之特定"},{"start":6317.21,"end":6319.21,"text":"人員與必要的時候"},{"start":6319.21,"end":6321.21,"text":"能夠採驗尿液"},{"start":6321.21,"end":6323.21,"text":"再加上什麼"},{"start":6323.21,"end":6325.21,"text":"那因為它性質上是個行政調查"},{"start":6325.21,"end":6327.21,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":6327.21,"end":6329.21,"text":"快速可以驗出其實是最重要的"},{"start":6329.21,"end":6331.21,"text":"那唾液的這個檢測"},{"start":6331.21,"end":6333.21,"text":"那其實目前的相關的"},{"start":6333.21,"end":6335.21,"text":"研究它是可以的"},{"start":6335.21,"end":6337.21,"text":"因為它有一個好處就是非侵入性"},{"start":6337.21,"end":6339.21,"text":"採樣又很快"},{"start":6339.21,"end":6341.21,"text":"那考慮上施"},{"start":6341.21,"end":6343.21,"text":"煙彈它的那個半衰期"},{"start":6343.21,"end":6345.21,"text":"非常的短"},{"start":6345.21,"end":6347.21,"text":"就是那個所謂依托靡指的半衰期很短"},{"start":6347.21,"end":6349.21,"text":"那如果它拖過那個採驗期"},{"start":6349.21,"end":6351.21,"text":"就可能逃過"},{"start":6351.21,"end":6353.21,"text":"所以我覺得那個檢驗的速度快"},{"start":6353.21,"end":6355.21,"text":"然後非侵入性"},{"start":6355.21,"end":6357.21,"text":"那現場就能夠有這樣子一個"},{"start":6357.21,"end":6359.21,"text":"行政上的一個做法"},{"start":6359.21,"end":6361.21,"text":"我覺得是最重要的"},{"start":6361.21,"end":6363.21,"text":"我這樣講就是那我支持"},{"start":6363.21,"end":6365.21,"text":"這個行政院的版本"},{"start":6365.21,"end":6367.21,"text":"那我自己的版本也是這樣定"},{"start":6367.21,"end":6369.21,"text":"跟大家說明謝謝"},{"start":6372.03,"end":6374.03,"text":"謝謝 趙志偉"},{"start":6374.03,"end":6376.03,"text":"主席你今天就一直"},{"start":6376.03,"end":6378.03,"text":"好像覺得我不要"},{"start":6378.03,"end":6380.03,"text":"講話了 你知道我摔了大交涉"},{"start":6380.03,"end":6382.03,"text":"不過我頭腦還可以表達"},{"start":6382.03,"end":6384.03,"text":"第一個我們就回到初衷"},{"start":6384.03,"end":6386.03,"text":"我記得剛剛范永偉一開始講的"},{"start":6386.03,"end":6388.03,"text":"我記得他錯過了廣泛討論"},{"start":6388.03,"end":6390.03,"text":"我們其實已經進入那個技術面的部分"},{"start":6390.03,"end":6392.03,"text":"第一個你看這個行政院自己提案的"},{"start":6392.03,"end":6394.03,"text":"它的立法說明"},{"start":6394.03,"end":6396.03,"text":"你看他現在他說特定人員要列管"},{"start":6397.44,"end":6399.44,"text":"列管 就是你要把你"},{"start":6399.44,"end":6401.44,"text":"這些特定的人員你要做列管"},{"start":6401.44,"end":6403.44,"text":"也許這個要什麼樣管什麼"},{"start":6403.44,"end":6405.44,"text":"那你這個列管本身"},{"start":6405.44,"end":6407.44,"text":"你讀起來這個文字就不是即時"},{"start":6407.44,"end":6409.44,"text":"就不是立刻現在喔"},{"start":6409.44,"end":6411.44,"text":"因為你要把你這個特定的人員做列管"},{"start":6411.44,"end":6413.44,"text":"我先舉例醫院"},{"start":6413.44,"end":6415.44,"text":"醫院為什麼每個人進去到醫院上班"},{"start":6415.44,"end":6417.44,"text":"包括行政人員"},{"start":6417.44,"end":6419.44,"text":"我們因為怕感染病人"},{"start":6419.44,"end":6421.44,"text":"因為我們接觸病人等等"},{"start":6421.44,"end":6423.44,"text":"譬如說早期現在細肝被拿掉清除很棒"},{"start":6423.44,"end":6425.44,"text":"那個B肝的那種罪一定要測"},{"start":6425.44,"end":6427.44,"text":"譬如說TB肺結核一定要測"},{"start":6427.44,"end":6429.44,"text":"就是因為你的工作上"},{"start":6429.44,"end":6431.44,"text":"或是必要性在那個環境裡面"},{"start":6431.44,"end":6433.44,"text":"我們都測"},{"start":6433.44,"end":6435.44,"text":"這個都毫無疑問"},{"start":6435.44,"end":6437.44,"text":"這個沒有什麼違憲或是什麼東西"},{"start":6437.44,"end":6439.44,"text":"這個東西就是你在那個環境上你要保護自己"},{"start":6439.44,"end":6441.44,"text":"也要保護病人"},{"start":6441.44,"end":6443.44,"text":"那也要避免這個傳導"},{"start":6443.44,"end":6445.44,"text":"所以基本上我們先回到原始初衷"},{"start":6445.44,"end":6447.44,"text":"那觀光這個列管考量"},{"start":6447.44,"end":6449.44,"text":"那為什麼我現在也會同意說 欸毛髮"},{"start":6449.44,"end":6451.44,"text":"我剛開始就同意放進來"},{"start":6451.44,"end":6453.44,"text":"我想請主管及觀記得"},{"start":6453.44,"end":6455.44,"text":"只有那個"},{"start":6455.26,"end":6457.26,"text":"成分本身的半衰期"},{"start":6457.26,"end":6459.26,"text":"現在還要看你檢驗的能力"},{"start":6459.26,"end":6461.26,"text":"那現在事實上這個"},{"start":6461.26,"end":6463.26,"text":"E-TOMYZ在各個地方"},{"start":6463.26,"end":6465.26,"text":"的那個半衰期都會不一樣"},{"start":6465.26,"end":6467.26,"text":"在唾液也許它這個八成以上"},{"start":6467.26,"end":6469.26,"text":"在24小時就不見了 你要掌握時間"},{"start":6469.26,"end":6471.26,"text":"但是然後這個"},{"start":6471.26,"end":6473.26,"text":"包括在"},{"start":6473.26,"end":6475.26,"text":"尿液的 尿液是最快的"},{"start":6475.26,"end":6477.26,"text":"然後唾液時間變慢 毛髮"},{"start":6477.26,"end":6479.26,"text":"剛剛大家講到毛髮"},{"start":6479.26,"end":6481.26,"text":"事實上 主席不好意思"},{"start":6481.26,"end":6483.26,"text":"你剛剛講說一個月前他有吸毒"},{"start":6483.26,"end":6485.26,"text":"那我們怎麼知道他戒掉了"},{"start":6485.26,"end":6487.26,"text":"就是說他一個月前"},{"start":6487.26,"end":6489.26,"text":"也是危險人物喔"},{"start":6489.26,"end":6491.26,"text":"你也一樣"},{"start":6491.26,"end":6493.26,"text":"我們33條"},{"start":6493.26,"end":6495.26,"text":"趙姿我跟你對話一下"},{"start":6495.26,"end":6497.26,"text":"我這沒什麼用的 33條"},{"start":6497.26,"end":6499.26,"text":"我們真的要賦予行政機關"},{"start":6499.26,"end":6501.26,"text":"這麼大的權利嗎"},{"start":6501.26,"end":6503.26,"text":"因為他說要列管"},{"start":6503.26,"end":6505.26,"text":"你如果是司法部門"},{"start":6505.26,"end":6507.26,"text":"如果是檢察官"},{"start":6507.26,"end":6509.26,"text":"你就說 你就法官 我就法官保留"},{"start":6509.26,"end":6511.26,"text":"OK 我偵辦人員"},{"start":6511.26,"end":6513.26,"text":"我得到這個"},{"start":6513.26,"end":6515.26,"text":"我在偵查當中"},{"start":6515.26,"end":6517.26,"text":"行政司法賦予他的一個權限"},{"start":6517.26,"end":6519.26,"text":"說 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或者說"},{"start":6545.66,"end":6547.66,"text":"涉及到我生活的紀錄"},{"start":6547.66,"end":6549.66,"text":"這個部分都有人權上的疑慮啦"},{"start":6549.66,"end":6551.66,"text":"但我們立法院"},{"start":6551.66,"end":6553.66,"text":"為什麼大家不敢說這個"},{"start":6553.66,"end":6555.66,"text":"說這個之後好像又講說"},{"start":6555.66,"end":6557.66,"text":"好像又碰到這個"},{"start":6557.66,"end":6559.66,"text":"販毒的部分 你們就在講人權"},{"start":6559.66,"end":6561.66,"text":"尤其是台灣民眾 國民眾批評"},{"start":6561.66,"end":6563.66,"text":"我們多說 你知道嗎"},{"start":6563.66,"end":6565.66,"text":"但是在司法法制委員會"},{"start":6565.66,"end":6567.66,"text":"我很敢講的原因在這裡"},{"start":6567.66,"end":6569.66,"text":"我認為說"},{"start":6569.66,"end":6571.66,"text":"這個立法輕易下去的話"},{"start":6571.66,"end":6573.66,"text":"因為個人的見解"},{"start":6573.66,"end":6575.66,"text":"不一定聽別人的聲音"},{"start":6575.66,"end":6577.66,"text":"這樣也不好 我比較喜歡"},{"start":6577.66,"end":6579.66,"text":"只堅持我自己的看法"},{"start":6579.66,"end":6581.66,"text":"所以你們的意見我都聽懂了"},{"start":6581.66,"end":6583.66,"text":"但問題是我怕"},{"start":6583.66,"end":6585.66,"text":"你們不想得到的部分就是"},{"start":6586.41,"end":6588.41,"text":"我們也聽聽看"},{"start":6588.41,"end":6590.41,"text":"連法務部 連學者專家"},{"start":6590.41,"end":6592.41,"text":"都會認為你"},{"start":6592.41,"end":6594.41,"text":"授權給行政部門"},{"start":6594.41,"end":6596.41,"text":"會不會給他太多的武器"},{"start":6596.41,"end":6598.41,"text":"如果是犯罪偵查"},{"start":6598.41,"end":6600.41,"text":"有檢查官"},{"start":6600.41,"end":6602.41,"text":"有檢察來申請"},{"start":6602.41,"end":6604.41,"text":"有法官保留搜索票的保文"},{"start":6604.41,"end":6606.41,"text":"強制處分的保文"},{"start":6606.41,"end":6608.41,"text":"看要怎麼動他"},{"start":6608.41,"end":6610.41,"text":"可是這個不是在講犯罪喔"},{"start":6610.41,"end":6612.41,"text":"這是要及時去發現"},{"start":6612.41,"end":6614.41,"text":"那你要不要給行政部門"},{"start":6614.41,"end":6616.41,"text":"給他的權限"},{"start":6616.41,"end":6618.41,"text":"跟司法機關"},{"start":6618.41,"end":6620.41,"text":"或者偵查機關"},{"start":6620.41,"end":6622.41,"text":"同樣那麼多的武器給他們"},{"start":6622.41,"end":6624.41,"text":"我是擔心這個"},{"start":6625.59,"end":6627.59,"text":"主席 前面幾個方法"},{"start":6627.59,"end":6629.59,"text":"包括唾液跟尿液"},{"start":6629.59,"end":6631.59,"text":"其實我現在都還沒有檢驗他們"},{"start":6631.59,"end":6633.59,"text":"就了解他們實際上執行"},{"start":6633.59,"end":6635.59,"text":"因為他有偽陰偽陽性"},{"start":6635.59,"end":6637.59,"text":"他的頻率代表說"},{"start":6637.59,"end":6639.59,"text":"他的偵測的能力還有過的時間"},{"start":6639.59,"end":6641.59,"text":"那這個我們今天"},{"start":6641.59,"end":6643.59,"text":"你一邊講 我剛剛突然就有點想到"},{"start":6643.59,"end":6645.59,"text":"當初就是有品流樣出問題"},{"start":6645.59,"end":6647.59,"text":"他這個有點流樣的感覺"},{"start":6647.59,"end":6649.59,"text":"像其實那個毛髮要取起來"},{"start":6649.59,"end":6651.59,"text":"也是毛髮每個月找1公分"},{"start":6651.59,"end":6653.59,"text":"你如果就是減到1公分為止"},{"start":6653.59,"end":6655.59,"text":"其實他這個一個月內你也是空窗期"},{"start":6655.59,"end":6657.59,"text":"你也是測不出來"},{"start":6657.59,"end":6659.59,"text":"但是他們的頻率有針對這樣"},{"start":6660.31,"end":6662.31,"text":"科學去設計嗎"},{"start":6662.31,"end":6664.31,"text":"司法當然不要侵犯人權"},{"start":6664.31,"end":6666.31,"text":"可是你要based你做的方法跟選擇的檢驗方法"},{"start":6666.31,"end":6668.31,"text":"跟所謂等一下"},{"start":6668.31,"end":6670.31,"text":"我們會提出來要怎麼樣"},{"start":6670.31,"end":6672.31,"text":"偽陰跟偽陽性 我今天談的是偽陽性"},{"start":6672.31,"end":6674.31,"text":"就是冤枉人家"},{"start":6674.31,"end":6676.31,"text":"偽陰就是放掉了"},{"start":6676.31,"end":6678.31,"text":"就是重放了"},{"start":6678.31,"end":6680.31,"text":"這個部分才是真正我覺得是重視的人權"},{"start":6680.31,"end":6682.31,"text":"那有關這個部分"},{"start":6682.31,"end":6684.31,"text":"如果他們這裡沒有足夠科學的資料"},{"start":6684.31,"end":6686.31,"text":"在辦法中去搭配的話"},{"start":6686.31,"end":6688.31,"text":"我反而覺得"},{"start":6688.31,"end":6690.31,"text":"我這個心反而沒有辦法把這件事情做好"},{"start":6691.83,"end":6693.83,"text":"你的論述更不應該贊成"},{"start":6695.96,"end":6697.96,"text":"毛法呢"},{"start":6697.96,"end":6699.96,"text":"你像譬如說你那個環境汙染的部分"},{"start":6699.96,"end":6701.96,"text":"你這樣走進去"},{"start":6701.96,"end":6703.96,"text":"我們這群人在這裡吸毒"},{"start":6703.96,"end":6705.96,"text":"假設我們這組叫吸毒組的"},{"start":6705.96,"end":6707.96,"text":"我們這邊是吸毒 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這不是開玩笑"},{"start":6745.96,"end":6747.96,"text":"好 那你出去以後"},{"start":6748.21,"end":6750.21,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":6750.21,"end":6752.21,"text":"我的意思就是說"},{"start":6752.21,"end":6754.21,"text":"黃毛性是次長"},{"start":6754.22,"end":6756.22,"text":"你願意讓他一個全線行政部門"},{"start":6756.22,"end":6758.22,"text":"不是犯罪喔"},{"start":6758.22,"end":6760.22,"text":"讓法務部可以決定"},{"start":6760.22,"end":6762.22,"text":"拿你一根頭髮去嗎"},{"start":6762.62,"end":6764.62,"text":"那是你可以的"},{"start":6764.62,"end":6766.62,"text":"我們不能這樣決定啊"},{"start":6766.62,"end":6768.62,"text":"那你真的會造成偽陽性的問題啊"},{"start":6768.62,"end":6770.62,"text":"你們兩個是無辜的啊"},{"start":6770.62,"end":6772.62,"text":"沒有啦 所以這是周美如"},{"start":6772.62,"end":6774.62,"text":"你剛剛說的那樣子的前提不對啦"},{"start":6774.62,"end":6776.62,"text":"人家在吸毒我們過去"},{"start":6776.62,"end":6778.62,"text":"然後吸那個空氣我頭髮就會有毒嗎"},{"start":6778.62,"end":6780.62,"text":"不會啦"},{"start":6780.62,"end":6782.62,"text":"不是啦 我在舉"},{"start":6782.62,"end":6784.62,"text":"不要 我跟你講"},{"start":6784.62,"end":6786.62,"text":"我在講的是說會受到環境汙染的問題嘛"},{"start":6786.62,"end":6788.62,"text":"你如果去多看一點"},{"start":6788.62,"end":6790.62,"text":"這一次法務部跟學者專家"},{"start":6790.62,"end":6792.62,"text":"所提出來這些疑慮"},{"start":6792.62,"end":6794.62,"text":"疑慮有汙染 連實驗室都會有問題"},{"start":6794.62,"end":6796.62,"text":"是是 沒有"},{"start":6796.62,"end":6798.62,"text":"重點在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":6798.62,"end":6800.62,"text":"重點是我們要不要賦予"},{"start":6800.62,"end":6802.62,"text":"行政部門跟司法部門"},{"start":6802.62,"end":6804.62,"text":"同樣的全線的問題啦"},{"start":6807.1,"end":6809.1,"text":"我好想講"},{"start":6809.1,"end":6811.1,"text":"你知道我的意思嗎"},{"start":6811.1,"end":6813.1,"text":"我知道 我現在要講的是"},{"start":6813.1,"end":6815.1,"text":"只要是強制檢驗的這個手段"},{"start":6815.1,"end":6817.1,"text":"它本身就是"},{"start":6817.1,"end":6819.1,"text":"會有侵害人權的問題"},{"start":6819.1,"end":6821.1,"text":"當然 今天這個絕對不是說"},{"start":6821.1,"end":6823.1,"text":"讓大家自主"},{"start":6823.1,"end":6825.1,"text":"你要去驗尿去接受托制"},{"start":6825.1,"end":6827.1,"text":"它就是個強制檢驗"},{"start":6827.1,"end":6829.1,"text":"是啦 所以一定都會侵害到人權"},{"start":6829.1,"end":6831.1,"text":"但是問題是輕度干擾"},{"start":6831.1,"end":6833.1,"text":"中度干擾"},{"start":6833.1,"end":6835.1,"text":"或者重度干擾"},{"start":6835.1,"end":6837.1,"text":"它本來就是會有"},{"start":6837.1,"end":6839.1,"text":"我們常常在講的比例原則的問題"},{"start":6839.1,"end":6841.1,"text":"看你要採取哪一項"},{"start":6841.1,"end":6843.1,"text":"比例原則的看法不同"},{"start":6843.1,"end":6845.1,"text":"我剛剛還看了就是經濟部"},{"start":6845.1,"end":6847.1,"text":"他們自己頒訂的"},{"start":6847.1,"end":6849.1,"text":"特定人員尿液採驗作業要點"},{"start":6849.1,"end":6851.1,"text":"大家仔細去看看"},{"start":6851.1,"end":6853.1,"text":"那個作業要點"},{"start":6853.1,"end":6855.1,"text":"如果說第一個他是採不定期的"},{"start":6855.1,"end":6857.1,"text":"一個抽檢 他有不定期收檢方式"},{"start":6857.1,"end":6859.1,"text":"或是說他有定期兩年"},{"start":6859.1,"end":6861.1,"text":"那麼如果說"},{"start":6861.1,"end":6863.1,"text":"是今天當事人他拒絕"},{"start":6863.1,"end":6865.1,"text":"去做驗尿的時候"},{"start":6865.1,"end":6867.1,"text":"裡面還要講"},{"start":6867.1,"end":6869.1,"text":"這時候可以拘束當事人的"},{"start":6869.1,"end":6871.1,"text":"身體自由"},{"start":6871.1,"end":6873.1,"text":"同時強制驗尿的時候"},{"start":6873.1,"end":6875.1,"text":"還說要特別注意受檢人的名譽及身體"},{"start":6875.1,"end":6877.1,"text":"所以他其實侵害名譽"},{"start":6877.1,"end":6879.1,"text":"跟身體的法疫程度"},{"start":6879.1,"end":6881.1,"text":"是更高"},{"start":6881.1,"end":6883.1,"text":"那我現在要講就是說"},{"start":6883.1,"end":6885.1,"text":"如果大家一直在講"},{"start":6885.1,"end":6887.1,"text":"這個今年試檢驗毛髮"},{"start":6887.1,"end":6889.1,"text":"就會侵害人格權侵害人的行動自由"},{"start":6889.1,"end":6891.1,"text":"那麼你做"},{"start":6891.1,"end":6893.1,"text":"說唾液的篩檢"},{"start":6893.1,"end":6895.1,"text":"跟尿液的篩檢何嘗不是"},{"start":6895.1,"end":6897.1,"text":"何嘗不是"},{"start":6897.1,"end":6899.1,"text":"更何況今天他是個行政"},{"start":6899.1,"end":6901.1,"text":"管理的手段"},{"start":6901.1,"end":6903.1,"text":"我們已經也授權未來就是相關的機關"},{"start":6903.1,"end":6905.1,"text":"他可以斟酌狀況"},{"start":6905.1,"end":6907.1,"text":"可以自己去定義相關的辦法"},{"start":6908.76,"end":6910.76,"text":"那現在法務部一再不斷的"},{"start":6910.76,"end":6912.76,"text":"去阻擋"},{"start":6912.76,"end":6914.76,"text":"類似這個毛髮可以作為篩檢"},{"start":6914.76,"end":6916.76,"text":"我真的覺得說你們的"},{"start":6916.76,"end":6918.76,"text":"想法非常的奇怪"},{"start":6918.76,"end":6920.76,"text":"這樣的話你們認為說難道不會"},{"start":6920.76,"end":6922.76,"text":"擔心會有更多的這個"},{"start":6922.76,"end":6924.76,"text":"聰明或者狡猾的公務員"},{"start":6924.76,"end":6926.76,"text":"他可能可以透過"},{"start":6926.76,"end":6928.76,"text":"這個規避"},{"start":6928.76,"end":6930.76,"text":"尿液篩檢跟唾液篩檢"},{"start":6930.76,"end":6932.76,"text":"這個方式然後他反而他就有"},{"start":6932.76,"end":6934.76,"text":"吸毒我現在講的像是經濟部"},{"start":6934.76,"end":6936.76,"text":"他是怎樣的員工"},{"start":6936.76,"end":6938.76,"text":"特定人員他必須要接受篩檢"},{"start":6938.76,"end":6940.76,"text":"像是台電公司的"},{"start":6940.76,"end":6942.76,"text":"發電書店這個配電等等"},{"start":6942.76,"end":6944.76,"text":"這些裝修的員工中油公司"},{"start":6944.76,"end":6946.76,"text":"各種運輸啊"},{"start":6946.76,"end":6948.76,"text":"供水供電的員工"},{"start":6948.76,"end":6950.76,"text":"還有各個機關這個駕駛"},{"start":6950.76,"end":6952.76,"text":"人員等等所以這些駕駛"},{"start":6952.76,"end":6954.76,"text":"人員還有這些員工基本上"},{"start":6954.76,"end":6956.76,"text":"如果說你今天能夠用一個"},{"start":6956.76,"end":6958.76,"text":"其他的方式多一個選項"},{"start":6958.76,"end":6960.76,"text":"讓他們可以去接受篩檢"},{"start":6960.76,"end":6962.76,"text":"而且也可以確保他們過去"},{"start":6962.76,"end":6964.76,"text":"確實可能在半年一年裡面"},{"start":6964.76,"end":6966.76,"text":"從來沒有吸毒的這樣的情況"},{"start":6966.76,"end":6968.76,"text":"這不是更好嗎"},{"start":6968.76,"end":6970.76,"text":"未來他就不見得一定要"},{"start":6970.76,"end":6972.76,"text":"去接受那個就是抽檢"},{"start":6974.64,"end":6976.64,"text":"所以法務部今天一些想法"},{"start":6976.64,"end":6978.64,"text":"我其實不太能接受"},{"start":6978.64,"end":6980.64,"text":"我們是不是先"},{"start":6980.64,"end":6982.64,"text":"我們是不是先釐清一下"},{"start":6982.64,"end":6984.64,"text":"就是說"},{"start":6983.65,"end":6985.65,"text":"你要發動強制處分"},{"start":6985.79,"end":6987.79,"text":"除了司法機關"},{"start":6987.92,"end":6989.92,"text":"行政部門怎麼會可以有強制處分"},{"start":6991.48,"end":6993.48,"text":"那你要有任何強制處分"},{"start":6993.48,"end":6995.48,"text":"涉及到強制處分的"},{"start":6995.48,"end":6997.48,"text":"這當然要法律保留嘛"},{"start":6997.48,"end":6999.48,"text":"你要對人身的侵犯的話"},{"start":6999.48,"end":7001.48,"text":"有輕度、有重度、有重度"},{"start":7003.58,"end":7005.58,"text":"33條"},{"start":7005.4,"end":7007.4,"text":"以小弟不才啊"},{"start":7007.4,"end":7009.4,"text":"那剛好是有立法的授權"},{"start":7009.4,"end":7011.4,"text":"否則針對行政部門"},{"start":7011.4,"end":7013.4,"text":"行政部門要去干擾到"},{"start":7013.4,"end":7015.4,"text":"一般民眾"},{"start":7015.4,"end":7017.4,"text":"除非你在行政機關你才"},{"start":7017.4,"end":7019.4,"text":"以前那種特別權力關係"},{"start":7019.4,"end":7021.4,"text":"否則你說我做部長"},{"start":7021.4,"end":7023.4,"text":"我做你們的長官"},{"start":7023.4,"end":7025.4,"text":"我就有辦法要求我底下的員工"},{"start":7025.4,"end":7027.4,"text":"我要給你做什麼做什麼"},{"start":7027.4,"end":7029.4,"text":"門都沒有"},{"start":7029.4,"end":7031.4,"text":"我如果是員工的話"},{"start":7031.4,"end":7033.4,"text":"就是因為我們有法律授權"},{"start":7033.4,"end":7035.4,"text":"現在是因為沒有法律授權"},{"start":7035.4,"end":7037.4,"text":"所以不可以做毛髮採驗"},{"start":7037.4,"end":7039.4,"text":"所以我的意思是"},{"start":7039.4,"end":7041.4,"text":"公委員來了,問題來了"},{"start":7041.4,"end":7043.4,"text":"就是說本來33條連行政部門"},{"start":7043.4,"end":7045.4,"text":"都不行的"},{"start":7045.4,"end":7047.4,"text":"那已經授權到你可以用"},{"start":7047.4,"end":7049.4,"text":"我們現在原條文的部分"},{"start":7049.4,"end":7051.4,"text":"是只有尿液嘛"},{"start":7051.4,"end":7053.4,"text":"那我們現在要再把它"},{"start":7053.4,"end":7055.4,"text":"多一個武器給行政部門"},{"start":7055.4,"end":7057.4,"text":"是多再給它一個"},{"start":7057.4,"end":7059.4,"text":"叫做"},{"start":7062.25,"end":7064.25,"text":"尿液"},{"start":7064.25,"end":7066.25,"text":"你的意思是說"},{"start":7066.25,"end":7068.25,"text":"不要緊啦,給行政部門"},{"start":7068.25,"end":7070.25,"text":"給一個尿液,毛髮"},{"start":7071.3,"end":7073.3,"text":"理論上33條我認為都不應該有的啦"},{"start":7074.47,"end":7076.47,"text":"都不應該有的啦,因為你不是司法部門啦"},{"start":7077.25,"end":7079.25,"text":"阿你現在已經給它一個了"},{"start":7079.58,"end":7081.58,"text":"我們現在法務部都認為說"},{"start":7081.58,"end":7083.58,"text":"折中折中,你再給我一個就好了"},{"start":7083.58,"end":7085.58,"text":"我就很開心了"},{"start":7085.58,"end":7087.58,"text":"你不是我們這裡說不好開綠燈"},{"start":7087.58,"end":7089.58,"text":"全部給法務部"},{"start":7089.58,"end":7091.58,"text":"全部給行政部門"},{"start":7091.58,"end":7093.58,"text":"這也不對"},{"start":7093.58,"end":7095.58,"text":"我只是說多增加一個毛髮喔"},{"start":7095.58,"end":7097.58,"text":"那基本上,因為我就說嘛"},{"start":7097.58,"end":7099.58,"text":"因為現在如果說台灣不是毒價很嚴重"},{"start":7099.58,"end":7101.58,"text":"不是毒品氾濫"},{"start":7101.58,"end":7103.58,"text":"基本上我非常同意"},{"start":7103.58,"end":7105.58,"text":"剛剛周偉的看法"},{"start":7105.58,"end":7107.58,"text":"33條根本就應該刪掉"},{"start":7107.58,"end":7109.58,"text":"我們現在機關這麼大的權利"},{"start":7109.58,"end":7111.58,"text":"可是就是因為我們現在毒品氾濫的問題"},{"start":7111.58,"end":7113.58,"text":"很嚴重"},{"start":7113.58,"end":7115.58,"text":"而且還不僅僅是造成犯罪"},{"start":7115.58,"end":7117.58,"text":"更重要的是說"},{"start":7117.58,"end":7119.58,"text":"有很多執行"},{"start":7119.58,"end":7121.58,"text":"跟我們公眾安全"},{"start":7121.58,"end":7123.58,"text":"有關的業務的這些人員"},{"start":7123.58,"end":7125.58,"text":"我們當然要更加強相關的管理"},{"start":7125.58,"end":7127.58,"text":"所以我完全是基於一個"},{"start":7127.58,"end":7129.58,"text":"這個好善意"},{"start":7129.58,"end":7131.58,"text":"我懂,我懂"},{"start":7131.58,"end":7133.58,"text":"來,到波特洛來,教育部有來嗎"},{"start":7133.58,"end":7135.58,"text":"來聽聽看教育部的看法好不好"},{"start":7140.01,"end":7142.01,"text":"聽聽看你們的看法"},{"start":7142.01,"end":7144.01,"text":"是針對唾液快篩那一個部分"},{"start":7144.01,"end":7146.01,"text":"他們說要多毛髮,你們認為呢"},{"start":7146.01,"end":7148.01,"text":"唾液當然,現在就認為"},{"start":7148.01,"end":7150.01,"text":"多給你們一個武器"},{"start":7150.01,"end":7152.01,"text":"覺得我們來"},{"start":7152.01,"end":7154.01,"text":"本來只是釀藥,我們再多一個唾液"},{"start":7154.01,"end":7156.01,"text":"可能會比較快"},{"start":7156.01,"end":7158.01,"text":"如果再多一個"},{"start":7158.01,"end":7160.01,"text":"給行政部門,給教育部"},{"start":7160.11,"end":7162.11,"text":"我覺得說,讓你們學校裡面的人"},{"start":7162.11,"end":7164.11,"text":"可以針對毛髮,你們的看法呢"},{"start":7164.11,"end":7166.11,"text":"因為毛髮這一塊"},{"start":7166.11,"end":7168.11,"text":"我們之前沒有討論過"},{"start":7168.11,"end":7170.11,"text":"所以針對毛髮這一塊"},{"start":7170.11,"end":7172.11,"text":"他到底要怎麼樣去做一個篩檢"},{"start":7172.11,"end":7174.11,"text":"然後他一些相關的"},{"start":7174.11,"end":7176.11,"text":"檢驗的工具"},{"start":7176.11,"end":7178.11,"text":"還有需要注意的事項部分"},{"start":7178.11,"end":7180.11,"text":"這個部分我們可能要再跟相關的"},{"start":7180.11,"end":7182.11,"text":"專業單位再做一個討論"},{"start":7182.11,"end":7184.11,"text":"才能知道他在實務上的可行性"},{"start":7184.11,"end":7186.11,"text":"是如何"},{"start":7186.11,"end":7188.11,"text":"但是因為我們知道像唾液塊"},{"start":7188.11,"end":7190.11,"text":"的準確度是很高"},{"start":7190.11,"end":7192.11,"text":"所以唾液塊在這個部分,我們是比較希望"},{"start":7192.11,"end":7194.11,"text":"在校園可以先來做實施這樣子"},{"start":7194.11,"end":7196.11,"text":"OK"},{"start":7196.97,"end":7198.97,"text":"司法常常是最嚴謹的"},{"start":7198.97,"end":7200.97,"text":"我看司法機關經過偵查"},{"start":7200.97,"end":7202.97,"text":"經過一審審判"},{"start":7202.97,"end":7204.97,"text":"二審三審出來,大家在那裡大喊"},{"start":7204.97,"end":7206.97,"text":"司法不公"},{"start":7206.97,"end":7208.97,"text":"你現在行政部門多給他這麼多的一個武器"},{"start":7208.97,"end":7210.97,"text":"到時候沒完沒了"},{"start":7210.97,"end":7212.97,"text":"我跟你講,我就是站在"},{"start":7212.97,"end":7214.97,"text":"我沒有特別的意見"},{"start":7214.97,"end":7216.97,"text":"我只是說,現在既然是"},{"start":7216.97,"end":7218.97,"text":"折衷到多給一個"},{"start":7219.48,"end":7221.48,"text":"多給了一個唾液"},{"start":7221.48,"end":7223.48,"text":"我們又要再開放一項"},{"start":7223.48,"end":7225.48,"text":"給行政部門再給他"},{"start":7225.48,"end":7227.48,"text":"毛髮"},{"start":7227.34,"end":7229.34,"text":"是"},{"start":7239.34,"end":7241.34,"text":"那我們現在講的是出院"},{"start":7241.34,"end":7243.34,"text":"給他更快"},{"start":7243.34,"end":7245.34,"text":"更快你要不要到毛髮"},{"start":7245.34,"end":7247.34,"text":"除非你認為說,法務部你誤定"},{"start":7247.34,"end":7249.34,"text":"毛髮就比你的"},{"start":7249.34,"end":7251.34,"text":"唾液的侵害性更加多,更加快"},{"start":7251.34,"end":7253.34,"text":"更加即時,那你為什麼不採"},{"start":7253.34,"end":7255.34,"text":"毛髮,為什麼去採唾液"},{"start":7255.34,"end":7257.34,"text":"那這樣來講又通喔"},{"start":7257.34,"end":7259.34,"text":"可是你如果說,因為毒駕"},{"start":7259.34,"end":7261.34,"text":"讓他知道這個人到底有沒有犯法"},{"start":7261.34,"end":7263.34,"text":"那個部分屬於犯罪刑事偵查"},{"start":7263.34,"end":7265.34,"text":"他在,他啟動"},{"start":7265.34,"end":7267.34,"text":"出院完以後,那到時候"},{"start":7267.34,"end":7269.34,"text":"再復院一次以後,可以有更嚴格的"},{"start":7269.34,"end":7271.34,"text":"一個程序"},{"start":7271.34,"end":7273.34,"text":"我反而會覺得"},{"start":7273.39,"end":7275.39,"text":"跟打擊犯罪"},{"start":7275.86,"end":7277.86,"text":"這個地方無關的"},{"start":7277.86,"end":7279.86,"text":"這部分是行政部門"},{"start":7279.86,"end":7281.86,"text":"是,我先"},{"start":7281.86,"end":7283.86,"text":"我再補充一個"},{"start":7283.86,"end":7285.86,"text":"剛剛因為教育部的這個同仁"},{"start":7285.86,"end":7287.86,"text":"他沒有講到就是說,到底什麼樣的人員"},{"start":7287.86,"end":7289.86,"text":"會被"},{"start":7289.86,"end":7291.86,"text":"會被做尿液檢查"},{"start":7291.86,"end":7293.86,"text":"就是因為這個毒品危害法律條例裡面"},{"start":7293.86,"end":7295.86,"text":"會,必須要"},{"start":7295.86,"end":7297.86,"text":"強制要去做尿液檢查的"},{"start":7297.86,"end":7299.86,"text":"他們現在教育部"},{"start":7299.86,"end":7301.86,"text":"裡面,基本上要做尿液"},{"start":7301.86,"end":7303.86,"text":"檢查的對象包含"},{"start":7303.86,"end":7305.86,"text":"中金違反"},{"start":7305.86,"end":7307.86,"text":"獨違條例行為的學生"},{"start":7308.56,"end":7310.56,"text":"還有曾經有休學中錯生"},{"start":7310.56,"end":7312.56,"text":"這個可能也會要求"},{"start":7312.56,"end":7314.56,"text":"要去做尿液的篩檢"},{"start":7314.56,"end":7316.56,"text":"還有有事實,主認為"},{"start":7316.56,"end":7318.56,"text":"這個學生他是適用毒品嫌疑的"},{"start":7318.56,"end":7320.56,"text":"另外一個很重要的"},{"start":7320.56,"end":7322.56,"text":"就是針對學校"},{"start":7322.56,"end":7324.56,"text":"裡面的駕駛人員"},{"start":7324.56,"end":7326.56,"text":"也要做這個尿液的篩檢"},{"start":7326.56,"end":7328.56,"text":"因為這是怕萬一,這駕駛他如果吸毒"},{"start":7328.56,"end":7330.56,"text":"然後,當然會"},{"start":7330.56,"end":7332.56,"text":"會有這個問題"},{"start":7332.56,"end":7334.56,"text":"那麼,我現在要講的就是"},{"start":7334.56,"end":7336.56,"text":"多一個毛法,它不過就是多一個"},{"start":7336.56,"end":7338.56,"text":"讓主管機關"},{"start":7338.56,"end":7340.56,"text":"它可以運用去檢查"},{"start":7340.56,"end":7342.56,"text":"這相關的人員或是學生"},{"start":7342.56,"end":7344.56,"text":"有沒有吸毒"},{"start":7345.48,"end":7347.48,"text":"而且我也沒有講說,在第一次就要"},{"start":7347.48,"end":7349.48,"text":"檢知,就一定要用毛法測試"},{"start":7349.48,"end":7351.48,"text":"它可以像是剛剛"},{"start":7351.48,"end":7353.48,"text":"張偉講,它可以作為復驗"},{"start":7353.48,"end":7355.48,"text":"第二次,但是"},{"start":7355.48,"end":7357.48,"text":"在選擇要用什麼樣的"},{"start":7357.48,"end":7359.48,"text":"採證的方式的時候"},{"start":7359.48,"end":7361.48,"text":"至少可以讓行政機關它多一個方式"},{"start":7361.48,"end":7363.48,"text":"這我認為這是非常合理的"},{"start":7363.48,"end":7365.48,"text":"我再次強調"},{"start":7365.48,"end":7367.48,"text":"今天我們不要把這個行政管理"},{"start":7367.48,"end":7369.48,"text":"手段又扯遠了,又跟司法的這個"},{"start":7369.48,"end":7371.48,"text":"不不不"},{"start":7371.48,"end":7373.48,"text":"你這樣會,我認為"},{"start":7373.48,"end":7375.48,"text":"我認為你這樣給行政部門"},{"start":7375.48,"end":7377.48,"text":"太大的權限了"},{"start":7377.48,"end":7379.48,"text":"我,譬如說這學校裡面"},{"start":7379.48,"end":7381.48,"text":"我是學生"},{"start":7381.48,"end":7383.48,"text":"我比較不良學生"},{"start":7383.48,"end":7385.48,"text":"我前面,我們這裡叫不良組"},{"start":7385.48,"end":7387.48,"text":"我前面都壞了"},{"start":7387.48,"end":7389.48,"text":"但我們每天都不良"},{"start":7389.27,"end":7391.27,"text":"你不能當你當教官的人"},{"start":7391.27,"end":7393.27,"text":"當老師的人,當學務處的人"},{"start":7393.27,"end":7395.27,"text":"看我們幾個"},{"start":7395.27,"end":7397.27,"text":"我們帶兩支,要檢驗,我們不一樣"},{"start":7397.27,"end":7399.27,"text":"張偉,你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":7399.27,"end":7401.27,"text":"你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":7401.27,"end":7403.27,"text":"我們幾個,如果說我們有去犯法"},{"start":7403.27,"end":7405.27,"text":"刑事犯罪"},{"start":7405.27,"end":7407.27,"text":"那個是刑事偵查的問題"},{"start":7407.27,"end":7409.27,"text":"那不是只給我們拿這個力量"},{"start":7409.27,"end":7411.27,"text":"那要給我們逮捕"},{"start":7411.27,"end":7413.27,"text":"上少年法庭"},{"start":7413.27,"end":7415.27,"text":"這不是,這你賦予學校"},{"start":7415.27,"end":7417.27,"text":"就變成給他,等同"},{"start":7417.27,"end":7419.27,"text":"司法偵查,跟偵查機關"},{"start":7419.27,"end":7421.27,"text":"同樣的武器"},{"start":7422.18,"end":7424.18,"text":"這樣說好了"},{"start":7424.18,"end":7426.18,"text":"我比較保留"},{"start":7426.18,"end":7428.18,"text":"我基本上,就是說你只要是對於"},{"start":7428.18,"end":7430.18,"text":"所有,任何的"},{"start":7430.18,"end":7432.18,"text":"特定人員去做檢查"},{"start":7432.18,"end":7434.18,"text":"只要是沒有"},{"start":7434.18,"end":7436.18,"text":"司法,沒有符合法官保留的話"},{"start":7436.18,"end":7438.18,"text":"他都會有這樣的疑慮"},{"start":7438.18,"end":7440.18,"text":"今天我在學校裡面開"},{"start":7440.18,"end":7442.18,"text":"開學校的校車駕駛"},{"start":7442.18,"end":7444.18,"text":"我為什麼要接受"},{"start":7444.18,"end":7446.18,"text":"強制的尿液檢查"},{"start":7446.18,"end":7448.18,"text":"那不是也是懷疑我是吸毒"},{"start":7448.18,"end":7450.18,"text":"這也是對我人格的名譽"},{"start":7450.18,"end":7452.18,"text":"有很大的侵害"},{"start":7452.18,"end":7454.18,"text":"但是我就想說,因為他是個行政"},{"start":7454.18,"end":7456.18,"text":"管理的手段"},{"start":7456.18,"end":7458.18,"text":"這是沒有辦法,因為我們希望"},{"start":7458.18,"end":7460.18,"text":"能夠維護更大的公共安全"},{"start":7460.18,"end":7462.18,"text":"維護公義"},{"start":7462.18,"end":7464.18,"text":"那對於學生來講也是一樣"},{"start":7464.18,"end":7466.18,"text":"所以為什麼教育部他說"},{"start":7466.18,"end":7468.18,"text":"他不是犯犯的所有的學生"},{"start":7468.18,"end":7470.18,"text":"他都要去檢查"},{"start":7470.18,"end":7472.18,"text":"就是手段的問題"},{"start":7472.18,"end":7474.18,"text":"手段要不要多那麼多"},{"start":7474.18,"end":7476.18,"text":"要不要那個比例原則的問題"},{"start":7476.18,"end":7478.18,"text":"我們講的意見幾乎都一樣"},{"start":7478.18,"end":7480.18,"text":"可是說我們真正的爭執是在於說"},{"start":7480.18,"end":7482.18,"text":"第一個,要不要給他這麼多的武器"},{"start":7482.18,"end":7484.18,"text":"第二個"},{"start":7484.18,"end":7486.18,"text":"然後這一個"},{"start":7486.18,"end":7488.18,"text":"會不會"},{"start":7488.18,"end":7490.18,"text":"符合比例原則的問題"},{"start":7490.18,"end":7492.18,"text":"我沒有定見"},{"start":7492.18,"end":7494.18,"text":"就是說多幾個"},{"start":7494.42,"end":7496.42,"text":"你如果說給司法機關"},{"start":7496.42,"end":7498.42,"text":"司法機關要窮盡一切辦法"},{"start":7498.42,"end":7500.42,"text":"除惡誤盡打擊犯罪"},{"start":7500.42,"end":7502.42,"text":"他任何的方式我都贊成"},{"start":7502.42,"end":7504.42,"text":"但問題那叫司法機關可以"},{"start":7504.42,"end":7506.42,"text":"可是行政部門"},{"start":7506.42,"end":7508.42,"text":"他到底有沒有這樣的權力"},{"start":7509.96,"end":7511.96,"text":"回到那個原點"},{"start":7511.96,"end":7513.96,"text":"如果說你認為行政部門沒有權力的話"},{"start":7513.96,"end":7515.96,"text":"尿液的篩檢跟唾液的篩檢"},{"start":7515.96,"end":7517.96,"text":"都不應該有"},{"start":7517.96,"end":7519.96,"text":"這都是展現行政部門"},{"start":7519.96,"end":7521.96,"text":"長治權力的一個手段"},{"start":7521.96,"end":7523.96,"text":"所以我剛的前提就是說"},{"start":7523.96,"end":7525.96,"text":"如果不是為了公義的話"},{"start":7525.96,"end":7527.96,"text":"33條都不應該存在"},{"start":7527.96,"end":7529.96,"text":"對,所以我們今天回到"},{"start":7529.96,"end":7531.96,"text":"除非你認為這些機關都特別權力關係"},{"start":7531.96,"end":7533.96,"text":"其實我會認為我會支持有33條的"},{"start":7533.96,"end":7535.96,"text":"因為我確實認為"},{"start":7535.96,"end":7537.96,"text":"毒品的氾濫問題很嚴重"},{"start":7537.96,"end":7539.96,"text":"我甚至認為可以給主管機關"},{"start":7539.96,"end":7541.96,"text":"多幾個去檢查"},{"start":7541.96,"end":7543.96,"text":"毒品的手段包含減指甲"},{"start":7543.96,"end":7545.96,"text":"我今天其實本來想提個修正建議的"},{"start":7545.96,"end":7547.96,"text":"除了毛髮之外"},{"start":7547.96,"end":7549.96,"text":"甚至連指甲"},{"start":7549.96,"end":7551.96,"text":"都可以作為檢驗的方式"},{"start":7552.94,"end":7554.94,"text":"因為現在已經在我們上去"},{"start":7554.94,"end":7556.94,"text":"拜訪科學建設中心的時候"},{"start":7556.94,"end":7558.94,"text":"他們基本上現在指甲"},{"start":7558.94,"end":7560.94,"text":"剪一小段指甲就可以去驗出"},{"start":7560.94,"end":7562.94,"text":"有沒有毒品了"},{"start":7562.94,"end":7564.94,"text":"沒有啦,翁委員,方法都對"},{"start":7564.94,"end":7566.94,"text":"你講的方法都對"},{"start":7566.94,"end":7568.94,"text":"我們現在講的是說給司法機關"},{"start":7568.94,"end":7570.94,"text":"或者給行政部門的問題"},{"start":7570.94,"end":7572.94,"text":"你給司法機關的所有方法都可以喔"},{"start":7572.94,"end":7574.94,"text":"所有的方法都願意接受喔"},{"start":7574.94,"end":7576.94,"text":"因為行政管理手段"},{"start":7576.94,"end":7578.94,"text":"它是個預防手段"},{"start":7578.94,"end":7580.94,"text":"真正發生了毒價車禍"},{"start":7580.94,"end":7582.94,"text":"然後造成人員傷亡"},{"start":7582.94,"end":7584.94,"text":"這時候把它用司法犯罪行為"},{"start":7584.94,"end":7586.94,"text":"去起訴"},{"start":7586.94,"end":7588.94,"text":"然後再來修正"},{"start":7588.94,"end":7590.94,"text":"我覺得那都是很後端的事"},{"start":7590.94,"end":7592.94,"text":"我跟莊昭偉其實我想"},{"start":7592.94,"end":7594.94,"text":"我們的理念都是一樣的"},{"start":7594.94,"end":7596.94,"text":"我今天只是說比較是站在"},{"start":7596.94,"end":7598.94,"text":"當前欠階段"},{"start":7598.94,"end":7600.94,"text":"我們台灣社會真的毒品問題很嚴重"},{"start":7600.94,"end":7602.94,"text":"我們甚至不敢保證"},{"start":7602.94,"end":7604.94,"text":"是不是只有那個不良青少年"},{"start":7604.94,"end":7606.94,"text":"才有吸毒的問題"},{"start":7606.94,"end":7608.94,"text":"很多的"},{"start":7608.94,"end":7610.94,"text":"很多的年長者"},{"start":7610.94,"end":7612.94,"text":"成年人也會有這樣的問題"},{"start":7612.94,"end":7614.94,"text":"而他們可能是在我們公共"},{"start":7614.94,"end":7616.94,"text":"的機關裡面服務"},{"start":7617.42,"end":7619.42,"text":"今天不過就是多加一個"},{"start":7619.42,"end":7621.42,"text":"毛法而且我們裡面"},{"start":7621.42,"end":7623.42,"text":"有強調未來的實施"},{"start":7623.42,"end":7625.42,"text":"辦法是由行政院各部門"},{"start":7625.42,"end":7627.42,"text":"自己去訂定他們可以去"},{"start":7627.42,"end":7629.42,"text":"規範"},{"start":7629.42,"end":7631.42,"text":"到底我現在要採取什麼樣的"},{"start":7631.42,"end":7633.42,"text":"檢驗手段"},{"start":7633.56,"end":7635.56,"text":"那如果說前面兩個檢驗手段看起來好像不可行"},{"start":7635.56,"end":7637.56,"text":"或是說發現敵人有漏洞的時候"},{"start":7637.56,"end":7639.56,"text":"我至少還有第三個手段"},{"start":7639.56,"end":7641.56,"text":"難道我們要每一次"},{"start":7641.56,"end":7643.56,"text":"為了這樣的事情然後不斷的去"},{"start":7643.56,"end":7645.56,"text":"增加補氣嗎"},{"start":7645.56,"end":7647.56,"text":"莊昭偉你這個說法就是說到後來"},{"start":7647.56,"end":7649.56,"text":"已經是進入到"},{"start":7649.56,"end":7651.56,"text":"他到底有沒有犯罪的問題"},{"start":7651.56,"end":7653.56,"text":"第一個不行第二個不行"},{"start":7653.56,"end":7655.56,"text":"已經給你第一個也不行"},{"start":7655.56,"end":7657.56,"text":"第二個也不行了就是代表你行政部門"},{"start":7657.56,"end":7659.56,"text":"要閉嘴了啦你不能"},{"start":7659.56,"end":7661.56,"text":"追殺人家啦要追殺給"},{"start":7661.56,"end":7663.56,"text":"司法機關去看他有沒有犯罪"},{"start":7663.56,"end":7665.56,"text":"來 陳昭偉委員"},{"start":7664.69,"end":7666.69,"text":"我再接著來講就讓大家"},{"start":7666.69,"end":7668.69,"text":"再想想看因為這個譬如說"},{"start":7668.69,"end":7670.69,"text":"學校如果說監測器"},{"start":7670.69,"end":7672.69,"text":"假設我們看到有人"},{"start":7672.69,"end":7674.69,"text":"就是學生不管或是行政人員"},{"start":7674.69,"end":7676.69,"text":"他們做了這個吸毒的"},{"start":7676.69,"end":7678.69,"text":"疑似吸毒的動作"},{"start":7678.69,"end":7680.69,"text":"那等到上班以後"},{"start":7680.69,"end":7682.69,"text":"或放完假以後"},{"start":7682.69,"end":7684.69,"text":"有人去看那個monitor發現有這件事情"},{"start":7684.69,"end":7686.69,"text":"那我們要去找出"},{"start":7686.69,"end":7688.69,"text":"這樣的人的時候這個時候"},{"start":7688.69,"end":7690.69,"text":"其實兩個方法都已經過去了"},{"start":7690.69,"end":7692.69,"text":"尿液這個時候就"},{"start":7692.69,"end":7694.69,"text":"這個時候就給警察啦"},{"start":7694.69,"end":7696.69,"text":"就到司法機關去喔"},{"start":7696.69,"end":7698.69,"text":"還在疑似的地方所以我在"},{"start":7698.69,"end":7700.69,"text":"想說說因為時間嘛"},{"start":7700.69,"end":7702.69,"text":"大多尿液就是大概當天就"},{"start":7702.69,"end":7704.69,"text":"八成就不見了然後"},{"start":7704.69,"end":7706.69,"text":"錯誤大概二到五個小時內"},{"start":7706.69,"end":7708.69,"text":"是因為我剛剛還說涉及他"},{"start":7708.69,"end":7710.69,"text":"檢驗能力他們一直搬出去一直跑"},{"start":7710.69,"end":7712.69,"text":"但是一直跑是他還測得出來嗎"},{"start":7712.69,"end":7714.69,"text":"那再來如果我剛剛就舉例嘛"},{"start":7714.69,"end":7716.69,"text":"放個年文件過去了但是"},{"start":7716.69,"end":7718.69,"text":"這個吸毒假設有在做吸毒"},{"start":7718.69,"end":7720.69,"text":"他不會立刻消失啊那這個情況"},{"start":7720.69,"end":7722.69,"text":"我們如果不保留這個方法"},{"start":7722.69,"end":7724.69,"text":"這個方法還沒有到"},{"start":7724.69,"end":7726.69,"text":"我們在疑似啊而且"},{"start":7726.69,"end":7728.69,"text":"這個毛髮另外一個方法就是說"},{"start":7728.69,"end":7730.69,"text":"因為我在處理一些相關的"},{"start":7730.69,"end":7732.69,"text":"一個管理不管健保用藥的"},{"start":7732.69,"end":7734.69,"text":"管理另外一個方法當然"},{"start":7734.69,"end":7736.69,"text":"我也要尊重那個"},{"start":7736.69,"end":7738.69,"text":"翁委員是不是可以接受就是說你第一線"},{"start":7738.69,"end":7740.69,"text":"的方法就是譬如說唾液跟這個"},{"start":7740.69,"end":7742.69,"text":"尿液因為他們是時間"},{"start":7742.69,"end":7744.69,"text":"很有限那第二線的方法"},{"start":7744.69,"end":7746.69,"text":"第二當這個都沒有"},{"start":7746.69,"end":7748.69,"text":"可是你覺得他的行為還是有疑慮"},{"start":7748.69,"end":7750.69,"text":"那你這個方法還是要背著啊"},{"start":7750.69,"end":7752.69,"text":"有疑慮怎麼會是行政部門"},{"start":7752.69,"end":7754.69,"text":"行政部門管"},{"start":7754.69,"end":7756.69,"text":"那麼多鳥事幹什麼呢"},{"start":7756.69,"end":7758.69,"text":"我剛剛還提議學生啊已經過了一個假期"},{"start":7758.69,"end":7760.69,"text":"但是我想說一下"},{"start":7760.69,"end":7762.69,"text":"我們這個排行榜都給你標籤化"},{"start":7762.69,"end":7764.69,"text":"問題是你現在整個作業要點"},{"start":7764.69,"end":7766.69,"text":"裡面就有講大家懷疑"},{"start":7766.69,"end":7768.69,"text":"某個學生看他的行為有多"},{"start":7768.69,"end":7770.69,"text":"問題的時候就可以去做檢驗"},{"start":7770.69,"end":7772.69,"text":"這是他們現在自己的作業要點"},{"start":7772.69,"end":7774.69,"text":"裡面就講的"},{"start":7774.69,"end":7776.69,"text":"所以他並不是講說大家都"},{"start":7776.69,"end":7778.69,"text":"很正常看起來都沒問題"},{"start":7778.69,"end":7780.69,"text":"然後我就來做篩檢"},{"start":7780.69,"end":7782.69,"text":"除此之外還有針對"},{"start":7782.69,"end":7784.69,"text":"看到這個駕駛感覺到"},{"start":7784.69,"end":7786.69,"text":"他有點問題然後就要去做"},{"start":7786.69,"end":7788.69,"text":"篩檢"},{"start":7787.91,"end":7789.91,"text":"所以我剛剛講就是說我們其實今天"},{"start":7789.91,"end":7791.91,"text":"訂33條是說他"},{"start":7791.91,"end":7793.91,"text":"除了尿液、唾液"},{"start":7793.91,"end":7795.91,"text":"再加一個毛髮的"},{"start":7795.91,"end":7797.91,"text":"檢測然後所有的時事"},{"start":7797.91,"end":7799.91,"text":"辦法由行政院自己去訂"},{"start":7799.91,"end":7801.91,"text":"他也可以說好吧"},{"start":7801.91,"end":7803.91,"text":"那我第一線我一開始我先用"},{"start":7803.91,"end":7805.91,"text":"尿液、唾液"},{"start":7805.91,"end":7807.91,"text":"然後之後發現"},{"start":7807.91,"end":7809.91,"text":"還是不是很妥當"},{"start":7809.91,"end":7811.91,"text":"市長毛髮還歸根"},{"start":7812.9,"end":7814.9,"text":"你說鑑定結果"},{"start":7814.9,"end":7816.9,"text":"鑑定結果毛髮還歸根"},{"start":7816.9,"end":7818.9,"text":"頭一定比較快"},{"start":7818.9,"end":7820.9,"text":"毛髮一定超過一個月以上"},{"start":7820.9,"end":7822.9,"text":"這邊有一個調查局"},{"start":7822.9,"end":7824.9,"text":"毛髮檢體的標準"},{"start":7824.9,"end":7826.9,"text":"他必須要集"},{"start":7826.9,"end":7828.9,"text":"他不是一根一根採"},{"start":7828.9,"end":7830.9,"text":"他要集中在後顱頂"},{"start":7830.9,"end":7832.9,"text":"頂部"},{"start":7832.9,"end":7834.9,"text":"而且要集中於數"},{"start":7834.9,"end":7836.9,"text":"這一數的直徑要達0.7公分"},{"start":7838.47,"end":7840.47,"text":"這個是他的"},{"start":7840.47,"end":7842.47,"text":"我剛剛看了一個這一數"},{"start":7842.47,"end":7844.47,"text":"我剛剛起調查局回報結果"},{"start":7844.47,"end":7846.47,"text":"大概要25根左右"},{"start":7846.47,"end":7848.47,"text":"市長你說這樣的話我覺得又真的是"},{"start":7848.47,"end":7850.47,"text":"背離科學"},{"start":7850.47,"end":7852.47,"text":"你看到你們有時候看到有什麼殺人犯"},{"start":7852.47,"end":7854.47,"text":"然後屍體旁邊只要一根根的"},{"start":7854.47,"end":7856.47,"text":"一點點的毛髮都可以去"},{"start":7856.47,"end":7858.47,"text":"檢驗說到底他是哪一個犯罪"},{"start":7858.47,"end":7860.47,"text":"行為人有的"},{"start":7860.4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那就市長你們對"},{"start":8075.5,"end":8077.5,"text":"陳昭之委員的提案"},{"start":8077.5,"end":8079.5,"text":"補救機制"},{"start":8079.5,"end":8081.5,"text":"有關於快篩委員補救機制的部分"},{"start":8081.5,"end":8083.5,"text":"因為委員是提到車輛保管"},{"start":8083.5,"end":8085.5,"text":"調扣駕照跟裁罰"},{"start":8085.5,"end":8087.5,"text":"其實這跟法務部的執掌沒有關係"},{"start":8087.5,"end":8089.5,"text":"那關於這個使用快篩"},{"start":8089.5,"end":8091.5,"text":"第一線也是警察使用"},{"start":8091.5,"end":8093.5,"text":"法務部本身沒有在用這個"},{"start":8093.5,"end":8095.5,"text":"所以請法務部會同這個可能是不是主管機關"},{"start":8095.5,"end":8097.5,"text":"是不是要改一個真正的目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8097.5,"end":8099.5,"text":"可以了 給你們研議一下"},{"start":8099.5,"end":8103.5,"text":"他是研議具體的救濟跟補償機制"},{"start":8103.5,"end":8105.5,"text":"給你們研議而已"},{"start":8105.84,"end":8107.84,"text":"不是 我想問說是不是交通部"},{"start":8107.84,"end":8109.84,"text":"因為前面講的車輛標扣"},{"start":8109.84,"end":8111.84,"text":"你們研議的不是法務部啦"},{"start":8111.84,"end":8113.84,"text":"第一線執法的人員"},{"start":8116.47,"end":8118.47,"text":"法務部本身沒有在用快篩"},{"start":8120.97,"end":8122.97,"text":"這樣這個應該算關"},{"start":8128.01,"end":8130.01,"text":"交通部的不是那樣"},{"start":8130.47,"end":8132.47,"text":"我們去跟他們說這個電交通部這樣也怪怪的"},{"start":8133.92,"end":8137.92,"text":"我們是希望法務部會同那個衛福部來警政署"},{"start":8137.92,"end":8139.92,"text":"去把這件事研擬出來"},{"start":8139.92,"end":8141.92,"text":"因為這個委洋性的可能性"},{"start":8141.92,"end":8143.92,"text":"我們可以參加"},{"start":8143.92,"end":8145.92,"text":"主責機關還是主管機關"},{"start":8145.92,"end":8147.92,"text":"我們可以協同"},{"start":8150.79,"end":8152.79,"text":"趙志 我們不是主責機關"},{"start":8152.79,"end":8154.79,"text":"應該不是我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":8156.66,"end":8158.66,"text":"這個案應該不是在我們這裡"},{"start":8160.12,"end":8162.12,"text":"不過他們可以去研議了"},{"start":8162.12,"end":8164.12,"text":"跨部會大家都沒人去"},{"start":8164.12,"end":8166.12,"text":"是啦 這應該是交通委員會"},{"start":8165.74,"end":8167.74,"text":"交通委員會 我們在處理毒品"},{"start":8169.25,"end":8171.25,"text":"我們處理毒品的設計到的全部都不是我們"},{"start":8172.66,"end":8174.66,"text":"司法法制主責的"},{"start":8174.7,"end":8176.7,"text":"因為他是扣押車輛"},{"start":8176.7,"end":8178.7,"text":"調扣駕照採法都不是屬於司法法"},{"start":8178.7,"end":8180.7,"text":"他就是因為測出他是陽性"},{"start":8180.7,"end":8182.7,"text":"但是後來發現證實是偽的嘛"},{"start":8182.7,"end":8184.7,"text":"所以說就不對了"},{"start":8185.67,"end":8187.67,"text":"不對啦 不對啦 你後面做的行為"},{"start":8187.67,"end":8189.67,"text":"你要給他一個補充"},{"start":8189.67,"end":8191.67,"text":"這啦 法務部不是他補充的啦"},{"start":8191.67,"end":8193.67,"text":"他認為他的執掌就不是在這裡"},{"start":8194.23,"end":8196.23,"text":"沒有 可是他整個的那個"},{"start":8196.23,"end":8198.23,"text":"偽陽性的案件"},{"start":8198.23,"end":8200.23,"text":"還是你這個去交通處理"},{"start":8204.64,"end":8206.64,"text":"法務部甚至到有關補償的"},{"start":8206.64,"end":8208.64,"text":"相關的這個法律救濟的問題"},{"start":8208.64,"end":8210.64,"text":"應該是法務部這邊也可以研議"},{"start":8210.64,"end":8212.64,"text":"就算是可能不是你們主管的"},{"start":8212.64,"end":8214.64,"text":"法規能提一個報告也"},{"start":8214.64,"end":8216.64,"text":"應該啊 但是我想"},{"start":8216.64,"end":8218.64,"text":"這只是一個報告而已嘛"},{"start":8218.64,"end":8220.64,"text":"但是我想因為其實每個主管 目的事業主管"},{"start":8220.64,"end":8222.64,"text":"機關他都"},{"start":8222.64,"end":8224.64,"text":"你如果要這樣講的話 那這樣等於是所有事情"},{"start":8224.64,"end":8226.64,"text":"都可以回到法務部啊 可是不是嘛"},{"start":8226.64,"end":8228.64,"text":"應該還是要回到這件事情到底事實上是誰"},{"start":8228.64,"end":8230.64,"text":"誰主責嘛"},{"start":8230.64,"end":8232.64,"text":"所以我覺得大家講這東西我都"},{"start":8232.64,"end":8234.64,"text":"非常認同 他的確發聲"},{"start":8234.64,"end":8236.64,"text":"我們也收到很多陳情 只是說今天"},{"start":8236.64,"end":8238.64,"text":"目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8238.64,"end":8240.64,"text":"不是在司法法制委員會嘛"},{"start":8240.64,"end":8242.64,"text":"所以才會說建議說是不是"},{"start":8242.64,"end":8244.64,"text":"到交 我是不是太確定到底是交通委員會"},{"start":8244.64,"end":8246.64,"text":"還是內政委員會啦"},{"start":8246.64,"end":8248.64,"text":"那是不是應該到那邊去"},{"start":8248.64,"end":8250.64,"text":"處理才對 因為所有的"},{"start":8250.64,"end":8252.64,"text":"機關都會去處理救濟補償"},{"start":8252.64,"end":8254.64,"text":"因為你這個說的是說"},{"start":8254.64,"end":8256.64,"text":"這個當場那個"},{"start":8256.64,"end":8258.64,"text":"車輛氣溫一致"},{"start":8258.64,"end":8260.64,"text":"啊 調控駕照啦"},{"start":8260.64,"end":8262.64,"text":"啊 還有裁罰"},{"start":8262.64,"end":8264.64,"text":"啊 這一些其實你說"},{"start":8264.64,"end":8266.64,"text":"叫他的補償機制"},{"start":8266.64,"end":8268.64,"text":"要怎樣 你的車"},{"start":8268.64,"end":8270.64,"text":"要怎麼拆掉"},{"start":8270.64,"end":8272.64,"text":"去給他拆掉 去補罐"},{"start":8272.64,"end":8274.64,"text":"還是那個調造"},{"start":8274.64,"end":8276.64,"text":"那個駕照"},{"start":8276.64,"end":8278.64,"text":"調控駕照 你說救濟"},{"start":8278.64,"end":8280.64,"text":"應該是交通部咧"},{"start":8280.64,"end":8282.64,"text":"事後證明是清白的時候"},{"start":8282.64,"end":8284.64,"text":"的時候"},{"start":8284.64,"end":8286.64,"text":"我意思說針對這些事項"},{"start":8286.64,"end":8288.64,"text":"要怎麼救濟的部分"},{"start":8288.64,"end":8290.64,"text":"是不是交通部"},{"start":8292.32,"end":8294.32,"text":"不是說你這個不好"},{"start":8294.32,"end":8296.32,"text":"我的意思說是不是"},{"start":8296.32,"end":8298.32,"text":"這不見得是跟交通部有關啦"},{"start":8298.32,"end":8300.32,"text":"因為這邊是講第一線執法人員"},{"start":8300.32,"end":8302.32,"text":"那法務部下面有很多也是"},{"start":8302.32,"end":8304.32,"text":"執法人員 對他測速"},{"start":8304.32,"end":8306.32,"text":"如果有偽陽性 那你到時候"},{"start":8306.32,"end":8308.32,"text":"你法務部要怎麼針對這些偽陽性"},{"start":8308.32,"end":8310.32,"text":"的這些人員們 然後"},{"start":8310.32,"end":8312.32,"text":"來這個 他不見得是指"},{"start":8312.32,"end":8314.32,"text":"員警 當然有員警"},{"start":8314.32,"end":8316.32,"text":"然後還有其他的"},{"start":8316.32,"end":8318.32,"text":"這些人也都是一樣嘛"},{"start":8318.32,"end":8320.32,"text":"那我現在是講說"},{"start":8320.32,"end":8322.32,"text":"今天是"},{"start":8322.32,"end":8324.32,"text":"提出一個補償"},{"start":8324.32,"end":8326.32,"text":"從法律的角度"},{"start":8326.32,"end":8328.32,"text":"應該要修什麼法"},{"start":8328.32,"end":8330.32,"text":"然後提什麼樣的補償"},{"start":8330.32,"end":8332.32,"text":"我知道 不然你就不要列舉"},{"start":8332.91,"end":8334.91,"text":"不然你就不要列舉"},{"start":8335.52,"end":8337.52,"text":"我們列舉可能就偽陽性造成的"},{"start":8337.52,"end":8339.52,"text":"結果那要怎麼處理"},{"start":8339.52,"end":8341.52,"text":"好啦 這個我要說協商的時候"},{"start":8341.52,"end":8343.52,"text":"大家都知道"},{"start":8343.93,"end":8345.93,"text":"協商的時候 我跟你講"},{"start":8345.93,"end":8347.93,"text":"我們碰到一個問題啦"},{"start":8347.96,"end":8349.96,"text":"你看我們昨天那個"},{"start":8349.96,"end":8351.96,"text":"今天禮拜幾 禮拜三"},{"start":8351.96,"end":8353.96,"text":"你看我們前幾天"},{"start":8353.96,"end":8355.96,"text":"兄弟姐妹特留分"},{"start":8355.96,"end":8357.96,"text":"三組對不對"},{"start":8357.96,"end":8359.96,"text":"叫好對不對 夜館音啦"},{"start":8361.07,"end":8363.07,"text":"真的在演的誰 跟他們都無關"},{"start":8363.07,"end":8365.07,"text":"司法院"},{"start":8365.56,"end":8367.56,"text":"所以我們才是會定一個日出啊"},{"start":8367.56,"end":8369.56,"text":"那為什麼大家敲不下去"},{"start":8369.56,"end":8371.56,"text":"重點就是在這裡"},{"start":8371.56,"end":8373.56,"text":"講到這個兄弟姐妹特留分的規定喔"},{"start":8373.56,"end":8375.56,"text":"雖然說昨天三讀通過"},{"start":8375.56,"end":8377.56,"text":"但是我還是有很大的不滿"},{"start":8376.87,"end":8378.87,"text":"因為這明明就是可以立刻實施的條文"},{"start":8378.87,"end":8380.87,"text":"然後又是因為"},{"start":8380.87,"end":8382.87,"text":"沒有啦"},{"start":8382.87,"end":8384.87,"text":"我知道 朝野協商就每個洞都在"},{"start":8384.87,"end":8386.87,"text":"大家都跟你說"},{"start":8386.87,"end":8388.87,"text":"這個條文三黨"},{"start":8388.87,"end":8390.87,"text":"大家都沒有意見的"},{"start":8390.87,"end":8392.87,"text":"就是說那一些配套"},{"start":8392.87,"end":8394.87,"text":"反正三黨也有意見 但是我就說我有意見喔"},{"start":8394.87,"end":8396.87,"text":"因為我也要表達我們的立場"},{"start":8396.87,"end":8398.87,"text":"其實很多的老闆"},{"start":8398.87,"end":8400.87,"text":"今天還不知道說這個"},{"start":8400.87,"end":8402.87,"text":"三讀"},{"start":8402.87,"end":8404.87,"text":"就是我們有一百十三個"},{"start":8404.87,"end":8406.87,"text":"所以說你有你的意見是好事"},{"start":8406.87,"end":8408.87,"text":"搞不好一百一十二個人都睡著了"},{"start":8408.87,"end":8410.87,"text":"只有你是醒著的 也有可能喔"},{"start":8411.86,"end":8413.86,"text":"所以我說我今天是表達我個人的意見"},{"start":8413.86,"end":8415.86,"text":"我對你就是說這一次的法律"},{"start":8415.86,"end":8417.86,"text":"通過我去支持"},{"start":8417.86,"end":8419.86,"text":"可是為什麼要延後半年"},{"start":8419.86,"end":8421.86,"text":"那沒辦法 朝野協商大家"},{"start":8421.86,"end":8423.86,"text":"朝野協商大家"},{"start":8423.86,"end":8425.86,"text":"我們還是回到毒品現在"},{"start":8425.86,"end":8427.86,"text":"這個討論好了"},{"start":8427.86,"end":8429.86,"text":"這樣扯不完"},{"start":8429.86,"end":8431.86,"text":"本案提案委員是否撤回"},{"start":8431.86,"end":8433.86,"text":"另一黨團協商的時候再提出"},{"start":8435.03,"end":8437.03,"text":"朝之你這個黨團協商的時候再提出來"},{"start":8437.03,"end":8439.03,"text":"因為我覺得這個提案"},{"start":8439.03,"end":8441.03,"text":"本身我是非常支持"},{"start":8441.03,"end":8443.03,"text":"還是你文字調整一下"},{"start":8443.03,"end":8445.03,"text":"但是你要不要 因為我們真的都是想要處理這個問題"},{"start":8445.03,"end":8447.03,"text":"我們就讓他回到對的部會"},{"start":8447.03,"end":8449.03,"text":"我的建議是讓他回到對的部會去解決"},{"start":8449.03,"end":8451.03,"text":"因為這才是我們想要做到"},{"start":8451.03,"end":8453.03,"text":"這件事情的目標"},{"start":8453.03,"end":8455.03,"text":"好啦這樣我聽到啦 這樣我幫他處理啦"},{"start":8455.03,"end":8457.03,"text":"朝之你這個喔"},{"start":8457.03,"end":8459.03,"text":"你這次先撤回"},{"start":8459.03,"end":8461.03,"text":"黨團協商的時候你文字做個修正"},{"start":8461.03,"end":8463.03,"text":"大家好過這樣好不好"},{"start":8463.03,"end":8465.03,"text":"好 可以啦"},{"start":8465.03,"end":8467.03,"text":"我就針對偽陽性這件事情"},{"start":8467.03,"end":8469.03,"text":"沒有問題 你這個時候"},{"start":8469.03,"end":8471.03,"text":"到時候你這個提出來一下"},{"start":8471.03,"end":8473.03,"text":"黨團協商的時候 朝野協商再提出來一下"},{"start":8473.03,"end":8475.03,"text":"這樣這條就先"},{"start":8475.03,"end":8477.03,"text":"這樣就好了"},{"start":8477.03,"end":8479.03,"text":"所以駕駛人改成當事人"},{"start":8479.03,"end":8481.03,"text":"那附帶決議第一案"},{"start":8481.03,"end":8483.03,"text":"當事人同意就先撤回"},{"start":8483.03,"end":8485.03,"text":"來現在第二案"},{"start":8484.58,"end":8486.58,"text":"第二案就我的了啦"},{"start":8486.65,"end":8488.65,"text":"第二案"},{"start":8488.36,"end":8490.36,"text":"第二案喔"},{"start":8490.36,"end":8492.36,"text":"就是說剛才有念過"},{"start":8492.36,"end":8494.36,"text":"請法務部家你們看法是怎樣"},{"start":8496.66,"end":8498.66,"text":"對這個附帶決議內有沒有意見"},{"start":8498.66,"end":8500.66,"text":"沒有意見啦"},{"start":8500.66,"end":8502.66,"text":"不好意思這個你還涉及網站"},{"start":8502.66,"end":8504.66,"text":"訴發部不在怎麼處理"},{"start":8504.64,"end":8506.64,"text":"你這是你的吧"},{"start":8506.64,"end":8508.64,"text":"因為我現在整個連衛環"},{"start":8508.64,"end":8510.64,"text":"全部大家都在"},{"start":8510.64,"end":8512.64,"text":"講的還是毒品啊"},{"start":8512.64,"end":8514.64,"text":"這是台灣販毒的保溫啊"},{"start":8514.64,"end":8516.64,"text":"訴發部一樣躲得遠遠啊"},{"start":8516.64,"end":8518.64,"text":"訴發部都不在"},{"start":8518.64,"end":8520.64,"text":"每次講一講說"},{"start":8520.84,"end":8522.84,"text":"移除貼文這個是他們嗎"},{"start":8522.84,"end":8524.84,"text":"移除貼文是他們要做的嗎"},{"start":8524.84,"end":8526.84,"text":"地方立法院的訴發部敢反對嗎"},{"start":8529.85,"end":8531.85,"text":"幹什麼呢"},{"start":8531.1,"end":8533.1,"text":"我不知道訴發部要怎麼處理"},{"start":8533.1,"end":8535.1,"text":"不是我跟你講喔"},{"start":8535.1,"end":8537.1,"text":"你說為了防範"},{"start":8537.1,"end":8539.1,"text":"為了防治"},{"start":8539.1,"end":8541.1,"text":"兒少因為心智未成熟"},{"start":8541.1,"end":8543.1,"text":"容易受到網站跟行動應用程式接觸毒品"},{"start":8543.1,"end":8545.1,"text":"我們說各主管機關"},{"start":8545.1,"end":8547.1,"text":"跟司法警察機關"},{"start":8547.1,"end":8549.1,"text":"可以讓網站業者行動業者"},{"start":8549.1,"end":8551.1,"text":"移除"},{"start":8551.1,"end":8553.1,"text":"這個台還有個訴發部"},{"start":8553.29,"end":8555.29,"text":"各個機關全部要遵守我們司法法制委員會的看法"},{"start":8555.29,"end":8557.29,"text":"這個決議啊"},{"start":8557.29,"end":8559.29,"text":"法務部也認為合理啊"},{"start":8558.95,"end":8560.95,"text":"這個已經都反對了耶"},{"start":8560.95,"end":8562.95,"text":"我大概質詢說"},{"start":8562.73,"end":8564.73,"text":"電子煙商店"},{"start":8564.73,"end":8566.73,"text":"我每次都叫他們現場處理啊"},{"start":8566.73,"end":8568.73,"text":"是啦"},{"start":8568.73,"end":8570.73,"text":"你都很好的意見"},{"start":8570.73,"end":8572.73,"text":"你都先知"},{"start":8572.73,"end":8574.73,"text":"我都打電話給你"},{"start":8574.73,"end":8576.73,"text":"全立法院就理想專業"},{"start":8576.73,"end":8578.73,"text":"人又好"},{"start":8578.73,"end":8580.73,"text":"都買得到啊"},{"start":8580.73,"end":8582.73,"text":"心又認真"},{"start":8582.73,"end":8584.73,"text":"重點就是朝會誰能出來"},{"start":8583.82,"end":8585.82,"text":"就代表你大伯"},{"start":8585.82,"end":8587.82,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":8587.82,"end":8589.82,"text":"來安樂這個法務部沒有意見啦"},{"start":8590.89,"end":8592.89,"text":"好,那就附帶決定"},{"start":8592.89,"end":8594.89,"text":"就照案通過"},{"start":8595.95,"end":8597.95,"text":"就請我們參考"},{"start":8599.73,"end":8601.73,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢"},{"start":8601.73,"end":8603.73,"text":"來做以下宣告"},{"start":8603.73,"end":8605.73,"text":"本案審查完畢"},{"start":8605.73,"end":8607.73,"text":"擬具審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":8607.73,"end":8609.73,"text":"那本案是我經過"},{"start":8609.73,"end":8611.73,"text":"黨壇協商"},{"start":8611.73,"end":8613.73,"text":"就來交付黨壇協商"},{"start":8613.73,"end":8615.73,"text":"那院會討論時"},{"start":8615.73,"end":8617.73,"text":"由莊召集委員瑞雄出席說明"},{"start":8617.73,"end":8619.73,"text":"那附帶決議一項"},{"start":8619.73,"end":8621.73,"text":"一併提報院會處理"},{"start":8621.73,"end":8623.73,"text":"調次引述條文部分"},{"start":8623.73,"end":8625.73,"text":"文字及法字用於"},{"start":8625.73,"end":8627.73,"text":"授權主席跟議事人員來做整理"},{"start":8627.73,"end":8629.73,"text":"那本次會議"},{"start":8629.73,"end":8631.73,"text":"我們就進行到此為止"},{"start":8631.73,"end":8633.73,"text":"議程討論事項第二案"},{"start":8633.73,"end":8635.73,"text":"做如下決議"},{"start":8635.73,"end":8637.73,"text":"另定期繼續審查"},{"start":8637.73,"end":8639.73,"text":"現在上會謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":8639.73,"end":8641.73,"text":"謝謝昭偉英明"},{"start":8641.73,"end":8643.73,"text":"謝謝昭偉"},{"start":8643.57,"end":8645.57,"text":"一場論戰"},{"start":8647.73,"end":8649.73,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8650.41,"end":8670.1,"text":"請問會議會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":87.95,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"ZEjzPSQ1Xj1xLwy981LvveXvmb37lZA9r8JWPW8gQ74z7XM8x/vVPUz4Sb5vGdQ9mQ+ePfeCAj6T/jU+9Q25PfByUT6pGhQ+mCggPlgQsT3kYTe+vc7gvTwgAz4LC4077Pj3uqSlhz7rcAS+3XdQvUiJx73EFo29a5jjvPVX6jzptP09eZ/AvmdEIT5tIN68MQuGPMtpAL5JEue9/xw7Pti1F70UVtI9LVAxPoyQTD0n6g0+OD+5PKxZSj6MNEk9z+CIvDXV4D3lhv69xVv8vbt97j1lLcO9n+davAH6Ery5uOs9lpMcPRAROb2L7fq9wzg2voSbrDz0av09FyQpPk9SP709B1M+Hiwju8WEDD0Fo7W9l5hkPmwbxb2Y4gU8CdztvdcGrr3bY/69aK8uPmtwPz7Zd1S+Swo9PsfaULyHMxw+nxw7vSXRKT7xx6y9hIisPYLhDb4Hjii+gKAjPdh83L03g4m+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