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像我們提出來"},{"start":3519.6,"end":3522.9,"text":"有關於這個毒品檢測的這個科技"},{"start":3522.9,"end":3525.6,"text":"其實一直在持續的精進"},{"start":3525.6,"end":3529.5,"text":"那各種身為的檢體在於這個準確性、時效性"},{"start":3529.5,"end":3532.2000000000003,"text":"還有採樣的便利性跟適用情境"},{"start":3532.2000000000003,"end":3534.9,"text":"也都有很多很成熟的發展"},{"start":3534.9,"end":3538.5,"text":"那最主要現在這個我們毒品危害防治條例"},{"start":3538.5,"end":3541.1,"text":"那僅僅以尿液作為採檢"},{"start":3541.1,"end":3543.8,"text":"其實也很難回應不同種類"},{"start":3543.8,"end":3546.4,"text":"還有列管對象跟實際的一個需求"},{"start":3546.4,"end":3551.5,"text":"所以主要是為了毒品防治制度的彈性跟執行的效能"},{"start":3551.5,"end":3554.8,"text":"然後更擴大這個法定的採檢方式"},{"start":3554.8,"end":3559.8,"text":"讓主管機關能夠將其列管對象做一個比較有效的管理"},{"start":3559.8,"end":3563,"text":"然後在執行場域的特性跟風險程度上"},{"start":3563,"end":3566.9,"text":"能夠比較採行適當之檢體的採驗措施"},{"start":3566.9,"end":3569.4,"text":"然後相關的一個"},{"start":3569.4,"end":3574.3,"text":"與時俱進的方式能夠比較授權這樣一個規範"},{"start":3574.3,"end":3576.8,"text":"那整個法治面可以做一個強制"},{"start":3576.8,"end":3580.6,"text":"那至於我們也有其他同仁提到了一些更精進的"},{"start":3580.6,"end":3581.7999999999997,"text":"包括毛法的這個部分"},{"start":3581.7999999999997,"end":3584.5,"text":"就都可以一併來考量"},{"start":3584.5,"end":3587.7,"text":"那因為現在科技進步的蠻快的"},{"start":3587.7,"end":3589.6,"text":"所以我們也必須與時俱進"},{"start":3589.6,"end":3594.4,"text":"然後很即時的來做一些檢測及擴大效能的一些管理"},{"start":3594.4,"end":3596.2,"text":"那以上說明"},{"start":3596.2,"end":3597.9,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3597.9,"end":3601,"text":"好來 接下來陳昭之委員"},{"start":3601,"end":3603.7,"text":"謝謝 剛剛這個千祺還有歐文委員"},{"start":3603.7,"end":3605.7,"text":"他們都有提到毛法的部分"},{"start":3605.7,"end":3607.2,"text":"那這個部分我個人支持"},{"start":3607.2999999999997,"end":3608.7999999999997,"text":"就是能夠想盡辦法"},{"start":3608.7999999999997,"end":3610.6,"text":"就是把這個事實找出來"},{"start":3610.6,"end":3613.5,"text":"那但是現在應該衛福布斯在場"},{"start":3613.5,"end":3615.2999999999997,"text":"就是我想知道那個毛法"},{"start":3615.2999999999997,"end":3620.2,"text":"因為這個像唾液的檢驗應該是現場立即"},{"start":3620.2,"end":3622.7,"text":"可能可以有初步的這個反應"},{"start":3622.7,"end":3624.8999999999996,"text":"但是等一下我會再提到決議說明"},{"start":3624.8999999999996,"end":3627.6,"text":"就有一些偽陽性我們還是要小心處理"},{"start":3627.6,"end":3629.1,"text":"那有關毛法的部分"},{"start":3629.1,"end":3631.5,"text":"它不可能現場做檢驗"},{"start":3631.5,"end":3634.8999999999996,"text":"所以它一定是有一個運送的過程"},{"start":3634.8999999999996,"end":3636.3999999999996,"text":"或是一個時間的過程"},{"start":3636.4,"end":3637.4,"text":"就是後來"},{"start":3637.4,"end":3641.3,"text":"到底這個我們檢驗的那個能力準確性"},{"start":3641.3,"end":3643,"text":"多久以後會生效等等"},{"start":3643,"end":3645.5,"text":"然後這個當中涉及這個樣本的"},{"start":3645.5,"end":3648.4,"text":"傳送到哪個地方去做處理等等"},{"start":3648.4,"end":3649.6,"text":"我是支持有這個做法"},{"start":3649.6,"end":3651.4,"text":"但是我是希望能夠了解"},{"start":3651.4,"end":3653.3,"text":"那是不是可以請衛福部"},{"start":3653.3,"end":3656.1,"text":"這個部分是衛福部來做的嗎"},{"start":3656.1,"end":3658.7000000000003,"text":"可不可以請衛福部代表來跟我們說明一下"},{"start":3658.7000000000003,"end":3660.1,"text":"就是加入毛法檢驗"},{"start":3660.1,"end":3663,"text":"你們在實際上的做法會是如何"},{"start":3663,"end":3663.9,"text":"讓我們更安心"},{"start":3663.9,"end":3666.5,"text":"那我個人支持是這個加入的"},{"start":3666.5,"end":3667.4,"text":"好嗎謝謝"},{"start":3668.8,"end":3669.8,"text":"來沒關係"},{"start":3669.8,"end":3671.8,"text":"先每一個委員先"},{"start":3671.8,"end":3674.8,"text":"先大家講我說"},{"start":3674.8,"end":3676.4,"text":"來翁曉玲委員"},{"start":3677.2000000000003,"end":3679.9,"text":"是趙偉還有各位委員好"},{"start":3679.9,"end":3681.8,"text":"那麼本席這次"},{"start":3681.8,"end":3684.8,"text":"所提出的就是要針對"},{"start":3684.8,"end":3687.8,"text":"這個現在我們這次修法"},{"start":3687.8,"end":3691.2000000000003,"text":"主要是就是對於就是特定人員的檢驗"},{"start":3691.2000000000003,"end":3693.6,"text":"除了現在的尿液檢驗之外"},{"start":3693.6,"end":3696.7,"text":"我們多增加了唾液的這個篩檢"},{"start":3696.7,"end":3699.2,"text":"那麼這是大多數委員的提案"},{"start":3699.2,"end":3700.9,"text":"那我本身是針對"},{"start":3700.9,"end":3703.2,"text":"除了要多增加唾液之外"},{"start":3703.2,"end":3705.5,"text":"還要多增加毛法的檢驗"},{"start":3705.5,"end":3707.2999999999997,"text":"那麼我的想法很簡單"},{"start":3707.2999999999997,"end":3710.5,"text":"第一個既然是我們是要去了解"},{"start":3710.5,"end":3712.9,"text":"到底現在一些特定的人員"},{"start":3712.9,"end":3716.2999999999997,"text":"他們可能在執行相關毒品的這個"},{"start":3716.2999999999997,"end":3719.1,"text":"查驗當中他們至於本身可能有吸食"},{"start":3719.1,"end":3723.4,"text":"所以也要針對這些受監督的這個特定人員"},{"start":3723.4,"end":3727.3,"text":"我們要去採集他們有沒有可能會有吸食毒品"},{"start":3727.3,"end":3728.5,"text":"既然是如此的話"},{"start":3728.5,"end":3731.3,"text":"那當然我們檢測的工具"},{"start":3731.3,"end":3733.8,"text":"檢測的方法可以多幾個"},{"start":3733.8,"end":3735.5,"text":"而且就像我們說的"},{"start":3735.5,"end":3740.6,"text":"就現在其實檢驗到底有沒有吸毒的這個方法"},{"start":3740.6,"end":3743.2000000000003,"text":"其實很多也不只是毛法"},{"start":3743.2000000000003,"end":3746.4,"text":"我前幾天還問了這個電視科學的專家"},{"start":3746.4,"end":3748.6,"text":"他們說其實現在包含剪指甲"},{"start":3748.6,"end":3751,"text":"其實指甲都可以去測試的"},{"start":3751.1,"end":3755.1,"text":"那因此就是對於這個特定人員"},{"start":3755.1,"end":3758.9,"text":"我們要給他檢查有沒有吸毒這件事情"},{"start":3758.9,"end":3762,"text":"透過尿液這當然是一個傳統的方法"},{"start":3762,"end":3764.6,"text":"但是其實去檢驗尿液"},{"start":3764.6,"end":3766.4,"text":"其實我個人覺得也是麻煩"},{"start":3766.4,"end":3769.3,"text":"那如果說可以讓受監督人"},{"start":3769.3,"end":3771.1,"text":"就是要被檢查的人"},{"start":3771.1,"end":3774.7,"text":"他自己可以選擇他到底是要用尿液"},{"start":3774.7,"end":3778.6,"text":"唾液還是說是用毛法"},{"start":3778.7,"end":3779.9,"text":"那麼這個事實上"},{"start":3779.9,"end":3783,"text":"他都是可以做為去一個檢測的方式"},{"start":3783,"end":3786,"text":"剛剛招資委員這裡有提到就是說"},{"start":3786,"end":3788.2999999999997,"text":"像尿液的檢測可能也不是"},{"start":3788.2999999999997,"end":3792.9,"text":"當場就可以做出來結果的"},{"start":3792.9,"end":3793.2999999999997,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3793.2999999999997,"end":3794.9,"text":"毛髮反應比較長期"},{"start":3794.9,"end":3796.1,"text":"然後可能要更"},{"start":3796.1,"end":3799,"text":"對 可能毛髮在檢查的當中"},{"start":3799,"end":3800.2999999999997,"text":"他的過程可能"},{"start":3800.2999999999997,"end":3801.2,"text":"這樣毛髮過去"},{"start":3801.2,"end":3802.6,"text":"我了解重金屬"},{"start":3802.6,"end":3803.7,"text":"所以我要請專家講話"},{"start":3803.7,"end":3806.2,"text":"就可能要十根以上之類的"},{"start":3806.2999999999997,"end":3808.7,"text":"那個量不是說一兩根就足夠等等"},{"start":3808.7,"end":3810.7,"text":"這個有關專業執勤的部分"},{"start":3810.7,"end":3812.1,"text":"所以我要講的就是說"},{"start":3812.1,"end":3814.3999999999996,"text":"其實因為我知道"},{"start":3814.3999999999996,"end":3815.7999999999997,"text":"法務部可能有一些意見"},{"start":3815.7999999999997,"end":3817.2999999999997,"text":"認為說毛髮"},{"start":3817.2999999999997,"end":3819.7999999999997,"text":"用毛髮檢測可能是一種侵入"},{"start":3819.7999999999997,"end":3821.5,"text":"可是其實坦白說"},{"start":3821.5,"end":3824.7,"text":"我倒不覺得毛髮的檢測是一種侵入"},{"start":3824.7,"end":3827.2,"text":"反而是像是尿檢或唾液"},{"start":3827.2,"end":3829.2999999999997,"text":"如果說用唾液篩檢"},{"start":3829.2999999999997,"end":3832.2,"text":"這個受監督人他硬是嘴巴閉著"},{"start":3832.2,"end":3833.2,"text":"他不張開"},{"start":3833.2,"end":3834.8999999999996,"text":"你也是要把他的嘴巴打開"},{"start":3834.8999999999996,"end":3836,"text":"然後進去去測"},{"start":3836,"end":3837.6,"text":"那反而是頭髮來講話"},{"start":3837.6,"end":3839.3,"text":"他也不見得一定要去拔"},{"start":3839.3,"end":3840.4,"text":"要有那個毛囊"},{"start":3840.4,"end":3842.9,"text":"他其實這個只要有剪到"},{"start":3842.9,"end":3844.1,"text":"一幾根的話"},{"start":3844.1,"end":3845.8,"text":"其實應該也就足夠了"},{"start":3845.8,"end":3846.8,"text":"當然我知道"},{"start":3846.8,"end":3850.2,"text":"如果說是今天要去增加毛髮的檢測"},{"start":3850.2,"end":3853.4,"text":"可能會造成就是相關的單位"},{"start":3853.4,"end":3855.2,"text":"他們要多花一些錢"},{"start":3855.2,"end":3858.6,"text":"未來可能要去做這個毛髮的這個檢測"},{"start":3858.6,"end":3862.7,"text":"開始委託給外面的專業的實驗室去做"},{"start":3862.7,"end":3864.2,"text":"或者是說"},{"start":3864.2,"end":3866.7999999999997,"text":"自己可能要增加人力設備去檢驗"},{"start":3866.7999999999997,"end":3868.5,"text":"但是我的想法是說"},{"start":3868.5,"end":3873.2,"text":"如果說是從防治毒品的這個角度來看的話"},{"start":3873.2,"end":3876.7999999999997,"text":"有更多不同可以去檢測毒品的方法"},{"start":3876.7999999999997,"end":3878,"text":"我都是支持的"},{"start":3878,"end":3880.1,"text":"那甚至包含就是我們剛剛說的"},{"start":3880.1,"end":3883.7999999999997,"text":"連指甲其實都可以作為一個檢測的一個手段"},{"start":3883.7999999999997,"end":3884.5,"text":"好 那以上"},{"start":3884.5,"end":3886.5,"text":"謝謝翁委員"},{"start":3886.5,"end":3890.3999999999996,"text":"其實我知道大家都有準備而來"},{"start":3890.3999999999996,"end":3892.6,"text":"但是這個毛髮這個東西"},{"start":3892.7,"end":3895.4,"text":"其實是為血液"},{"start":3895.4,"end":3899.7999999999997,"text":"到後來從髮絲下去"},{"start":3899.7999999999997,"end":3901.1,"text":"錄影帶回溯"},{"start":3901.1,"end":3903.9,"text":"但是那個其實是一個長期的東西"},{"start":3903.9,"end":3905.6,"text":"這個其實在座很多實務上"},{"start":3905.6,"end":3908.9,"text":"大家都是專家"},{"start":3908.9,"end":3911.9,"text":"可是我們現在講的是在講出院"},{"start":3911.9,"end":3913.6,"text":"在講的是在講出院"},{"start":3913.6,"end":3914.9,"text":"要把它驗出來"},{"start":3914.9,"end":3916,"text":"你說尿液"},{"start":3916,"end":3918.1,"text":"當然是大家看"},{"start":3918.2,"end":3923.7999999999997,"text":"最簡單的就是很平常用到的就是尿液"},{"start":3923.7999999999997,"end":3927.4,"text":"那確實也會講到毛髮"},{"start":3927.4,"end":3929.6,"text":"但是毛髮就是比較長期的"},{"start":3929.6,"end":3931.5,"text":"再來就是唾液"},{"start":3931.5,"end":3933.7,"text":"再來什麼血液也有可能"},{"start":3933.7,"end":3936.4,"text":"現在我這幾天在準備的時候"},{"start":3936.4,"end":3939.1,"text":"我還發現還有什麼漢液"},{"start":3939.1,"end":3940.1,"text":"漢液也有"},{"start":3940.1,"end":3941.5,"text":"紅膜那個就不用講了"},{"start":3941.5,"end":3942.9,"text":"那個大家都知道了"},{"start":3942.9,"end":3944.1,"text":"問題就是說"},{"start":3944.1,"end":3945.7,"text":"翁委員 還有高委員就是說"},{"start":3945.7,"end":3946.7,"text":"我們這裡"},{"start":3946.7,"end":3948.2,"text":"都民委要防治條例裡面"},{"start":3948.2,"end":3949.3999999999996,"text":"我們現在說的就是"},{"start":3949.3999999999996,"end":3952.1,"text":"你前面在做出院的時候"},{"start":3952.1,"end":3954.2,"text":"是不是要讓人家比較方便"},{"start":3954.2,"end":3956.8999999999996,"text":"你講的那個比較敷衍的話"},{"start":3956.8999999999996,"end":3959.2999999999997,"text":"司法機關到最後一定都是敷衍的"},{"start":3959.2999999999997,"end":3962.3999999999996,"text":"它那個程序到又變成的比較"},{"start":3962.3999999999996,"end":3964.7999999999997,"text":"變成到最後會比較嚴謹了"},{"start":3964.7999999999997,"end":3967.2,"text":"所以剛剛陳肇志委員提到那個確實"},{"start":3967.2,"end":3970.5,"text":"毛髮的部分都是在講回溯比較長期"},{"start":3970.5,"end":3971.8999999999996,"text":"你時間也會比較久"},{"start":3971.8999999999996,"end":3973.7,"text":"但是我們聽聽"},{"start":3974.7,"end":3975.7,"text":"行政部門的"},{"start":3975.7,"end":3976.7,"text":"來來來"},{"start":3976.7,"end":3978.2,"text":"那個雅玲委員"},{"start":3978.2,"end":3979.7,"text":"好 我想就是說"},{"start":3979.7,"end":3981.7,"text":"因為其實剛剛大家都講了非常多"},{"start":3981.7,"end":3983.7,"text":"就是我們有很多採驗的方式"},{"start":3983.7,"end":3985.2,"text":"但是還是要回溯到就是說"},{"start":3985.2,"end":3988.2,"text":"除了出院我們要追求時數 時效性"},{"start":3988.2,"end":3989.2,"text":"這是第一個部分"},{"start":3989.2,"end":3990.2,"text":"第二個就是說"},{"start":3990.2,"end":3991.7,"text":"其實因為我之前也有關心到"},{"start":3991.7,"end":3993.7,"text":"我們在唾液有一些偽陽性"},{"start":3993.7,"end":3995.7,"text":"好 那這個我看到陳肇志委員"},{"start":3995.7,"end":3997.2,"text":"翁小姐委員跟林茜琪委員"},{"start":3997.2,"end":3999.2,"text":"也有這樣子的一個附帶決議"},{"start":3999.2,"end":4000.7,"text":"就是避免說"},{"start":4000.7,"end":4002.7,"text":"他如果最後被證明的時候"},{"start":4002.7,"end":4004.7,"text":"我們應該要有一些相關的救濟制度"},{"start":4004.7,"end":4005.7,"text":"所以我今天在"},{"start":4005.7,"end":4007.7,"text":"希望大家再思考一下"},{"start":4007.7,"end":4010.7,"text":"就是說也可能待會主管機關可以來說明"},{"start":4010.7,"end":4012.7,"text":"就是說如果我們今天增加了"},{"start":4012.7,"end":4014.2,"text":"不管是血液"},{"start":4014.2,"end":4016.2,"text":"因為也有委員提出血液"},{"start":4016.2,"end":4017.7,"text":"毛髮"},{"start":4017.7,"end":4020.7,"text":"那這個過程是不是就會變成更更冗長"},{"start":4020.7,"end":4022.7,"text":"那更冗長的時候呢"},{"start":4022.7,"end":4026.2,"text":"那他這個保管車輛調扣駕照的這個時間"},{"start":4026.2,"end":4027.7,"text":"可能也就會更冗長"},{"start":4027.7,"end":4028.7,"text":"那會不會影響到人民的"},{"start":4028.7,"end":4030.2,"text":"如果他是一個無辜的人"},{"start":4030.2,"end":4031.7,"text":"他會不會影響到他的生計"},{"start":4031.7,"end":4034.2,"text":"我覺得這個也是大家要來考量的地方"},{"start":4034.2,"end":4036.2,"text":"因為以光現在脫衣來講"},{"start":4036.2,"end":4038.2,"text":"他們就已經要等到將近半個月"},{"start":4038.2,"end":4039.7,"text":"甚至一個月的時間了"},{"start":4039.7,"end":4041.7,"text":"那如果要再增加這個"},{"start":4041.7,"end":4043.7,"text":"這麼多可能要更花時間"},{"start":4043.7,"end":4045.2,"text":"我不太確定血液跟毛髮"},{"start":4045.2,"end":4046.7,"text":"是不是會更快還是怎麼樣"},{"start":4046.7,"end":4048.7,"text":"這個可能待會也可以請"},{"start":4048.7,"end":4050.2,"text":"這個相關機關再說明一下"},{"start":4050.2,"end":4052.7,"text":"為什麼我們在這麼多的選擇裡"},{"start":4052.7,"end":4054.7,"text":"我們只增加了脫衣 謝謝"},{"start":4056.7,"end":4058.7,"text":"法務部 來黃次長"},{"start":4058.7,"end":4060.2,"text":"這個比較專業的說明啦"},{"start":4060.2,"end":4062.2,"text":"今天大家每一個委員都有所準備而來"},{"start":4062.2,"end":4064.2,"text":"但是這種專業的東西"},{"start":4064.2,"end":4066.2,"text":"我們最後還是會比較尊重"},{"start":4066.2,"end":4068.2,"text":"行政部門的專業意見啦 請來"},{"start":4068.2,"end":4071.2,"text":"好 那 曹委 各位委員大家好"},{"start":4071.2,"end":4073.2,"text":"那首先要跟各位委員報告就是說"},{"start":4073.2,"end":4074.2,"text":"我們這條要處理的"},{"start":4074.2,"end":4077.2,"text":"其實是一個行政上的管理"},{"start":4077.2,"end":4079.2,"text":"跟行政上的預防的目的"},{"start":4079.2,"end":4084.2,"text":"各位委員不可以從這個犯罪偵查的角度去處罰"},{"start":4084.2,"end":4086.7,"text":"犯罪偵查如果他是一個鑑定的概念"},{"start":4086.7,"end":4088.2,"text":"剛剛委員講的完全同意"},{"start":4088.2,"end":4090.2,"text":"他必須要多元 他必須要確效"},{"start":4090.2,"end":4093.2,"text":"他必須要有一個出塞復塞"},{"start":4093.2,"end":4095.2,"text":"一大堆程序保障"},{"start":4095.2,"end":4096.2,"text":"但這條目的不是"},{"start":4096.2,"end":4099.2,"text":"這條目的它是行政管理跟行政預防"},{"start":4099.2,"end":4101.2,"text":"所以各位委員看一下他的行政條文"},{"start":4101.2,"end":4102.2,"text":"他的主體是誰"},{"start":4102.2,"end":4105.2,"text":"他行使採驗的主體是行政機關"},{"start":4105.2,"end":4109.2,"text":"換句話說不是我們一般的執法人員"},{"start":4109.2,"end":4111.2,"text":"是中華民國現在"},{"start":4111.2,"end":4116.2,"text":"適用的是中華民國十個行政部門的行政人員"},{"start":4116.2,"end":4117.2,"text":"他要負責採驗"},{"start":4117.2,"end":4121.2,"text":"他根本沒有受過專業的偵查訓練的人去採驗"},{"start":4121.2,"end":4124.2,"text":"第一個他不是偵查人員去採驗"},{"start":4124.2,"end":4125.2,"text":"他是行政人員去採驗"},{"start":4125.2,"end":4128.2,"text":"第二個他所採驗的對象是誰"},{"start":4128.2,"end":4131.2,"text":"犯罪偵查的對象是犯罪嫌疑人"},{"start":4131.2,"end":4134.2,"text":"他在訴訟法上他有一定忍受的義務"},{"start":4134.2,"end":4138.2,"text":"但是這個採驗的對象是中華民國"},{"start":4138.2,"end":4141.2,"text":"他有的公務員他有可能是"},{"start":4141.2,"end":4144.2,"text":"他的主管事業是基於公共安全"},{"start":4144.2,"end":4147.2,"text":"比如說開飛機的開捷運的開火車的"},{"start":4147.2,"end":4151.2,"text":"他本身是因為他的業務屬性"},{"start":4151.2,"end":4155.2,"text":"或者他本身可能是接觸毒品的業務從業人員"},{"start":4155.2,"end":4157.2,"text":"毒品的保管庫的公務員"},{"start":4157.2,"end":4159.2,"text":"我們的調查人員我們警察人員"},{"start":4159.2,"end":4162.2,"text":"所以他本身不是在犯罪"},{"start":4162.2,"end":4164.2,"text":"只是基於公共安全的目的"},{"start":4164.2,"end":4166.2,"text":"基於行政管理目的"},{"start":4166.2,"end":4169.2,"text":"我們要事先是基於社會防衛的角度來看"},{"start":4169.2,"end":4170.2,"text":"做事先的預防"},{"start":4170.2,"end":4173.2,"text":"所以我們對這些人我們要採取"},{"start":4173.2,"end":4177.2,"text":"這麼強大強度的這一個檢驗方法嗎"},{"start":4177.2,"end":4180.2,"text":"這個要請各位委員深思這個考慮"},{"start":4180.2,"end":4182.2,"text":"第二點各位委員一直在講"},{"start":4182.2,"end":4184.2,"text":"為什麼只有尿液為什麼只有唾液"},{"start":4184.2,"end":4188.2,"text":"因為他的快速性便利性"},{"start":4188.2,"end":4191.2,"text":"我們現在的唾液他有快篩"},{"start":4191.2,"end":4192.2,"text":"尿液也有快篩"},{"start":4192.2,"end":4194.2,"text":"所以我們一般的行政人員透過快篩"},{"start":4194.2,"end":4196.2,"text":"像我們COVID-19一樣兩條線"},{"start":4196.2,"end":4198.2,"text":"我就知道你是有陽性的"},{"start":4198.2,"end":4201.2,"text":"他馬上就即時就可以知道了"},{"start":4201.2,"end":4203.2,"text":"我們一般的行政人員他就可以知道"},{"start":4203.2,"end":4205.2,"text":"快篩的結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":4205.2,"end":4208.2,"text":"我們現在除了尿液除了唾液之外"},{"start":4208.2,"end":4210.2,"text":"我們並沒有毛髮的快篩"},{"start":4210.2,"end":4212.2,"text":"我們也沒有血液的快篩"},{"start":4212.2,"end":4214.2,"text":"所以血液它是必須要進入"},{"start":4214.2,"end":4218.2,"text":"一個侵入性的採取才有辦法可以檢驗"},{"start":4218.2,"end":4221.2,"text":"毛髮沒有錯"},{"start":4221.2,"end":4224.2,"text":"它也許不會被歸類成侵入性的措施"},{"start":4224.2,"end":4226.2,"text":"但是毛髮它是要去檢"},{"start":4226.2,"end":4229.2,"text":"它要檢對一般民眾的人格權"},{"start":4229.2,"end":4232.2,"text":"人格就是產生很大的影響"},{"start":4232.2,"end":4234.2,"text":"這個對象是用對象包括學生"},{"start":4234.2,"end":4235.2,"text":"包括我們的警察"},{"start":4235.2,"end":4240.2,"text":"包括普羅的一般的公務員"},{"start":4240.2,"end":4242.2,"text":"我們如果去採他的毛髮"},{"start":4242.2,"end":4245.2,"text":"對這個公務員的人格權"},{"start":4245.2,"end":4248.2,"text":"是某個程度上是沒有獲得一個足夠的保障"},{"start":4248.2,"end":4250.2,"text":"所以這部分我要跟委員報告"},{"start":4250.2,"end":4252.2,"text":"第三點我們這個辦法"},{"start":4252.2,"end":4253.2,"text":"其實各位去看條文的後面"},{"start":4253.2,"end":4256.2,"text":"如果這個公務員不遵守的話"},{"start":4256.2,"end":4259.2,"text":"另外還有一個附帶的效果是"},{"start":4259.2,"end":4261.2,"text":"可以拘束他的身體"},{"start":4261.2,"end":4262.2,"text":"可以想想看"},{"start":4262.2,"end":4263.2,"text":"如果我們要採他毛髮"},{"start":4263.2,"end":4265.2,"text":"他不願意"},{"start":4265.2,"end":4269.2,"text":"或怎麼樣我們是可以拘束他的身體的"},{"start":4269.2,"end":4271.2,"text":"所以我們為什麼不願意把這範圍擴這麼大"},{"start":4271.2,"end":4275.2,"text":"因為他會對我們的公務員"},{"start":4275.2,"end":4278.2,"text":"所監督的人員的人身自由"},{"start":4278.2,"end":4280.2,"text":"會產生連動的效果"},{"start":4280.2,"end":4281.2,"text":"這我會跟各位報告"},{"start":4281.2,"end":4282.2,"text":"第四點"},{"start":4282.2,"end":4284.2,"text":"剛剛翁委員有提到就是說"},{"start":4284.2,"end":4287.2,"text":"我用毛髮我可以知道他更久之前"},{"start":4287.2,"end":4291.2,"text":"他有沒有食用毒品來避免這個空窗"},{"start":4291.2,"end":4292.2,"text":"但我跟委員報告"},{"start":4292.2,"end":4294.2,"text":"這個法的立法目的是什麼"},{"start":4294.2,"end":4295.2,"text":"是要即時性的處理"},{"start":4295.2,"end":4298.2,"text":"譬如說這個人即將要去開飛機了"},{"start":4298.2,"end":4299.2,"text":"他即將要開捷運了"},{"start":4299.2,"end":4300.2,"text":"他即將開火車了"},{"start":4300.2,"end":4303.2,"text":"我要馬上知道他有沒有食用毒品"},{"start":4303.2,"end":4306.2,"text":"我要知道他現在24小時前有沒有食用毒品"},{"start":4306.2,"end":4308.2,"text":"他有危險性我就不准他去開車開飛機"},{"start":4309.2,"end":4312.2,"text":"我不需要知道他6個月前有沒有食用毒品"},{"start":4312.2,"end":4315.2,"text":"那是另外犯罪去偵查的問題"},{"start":4315.2,"end":4316.2,"text":"而不是我這個法"},{"start":4316.2,"end":4318.2,"text":"現實立即要處理的"},{"start":4318.2,"end":4320.2,"text":"我現實立即要處理就是基於公共安全"},{"start":4320.2,"end":4322.2,"text":"要不要馬上禁止他去開飛機"},{"start":4322.2,"end":4323.2,"text":"禁止他去開捷運"},{"start":4323.2,"end":4325.2,"text":"禁止他去開火車"},{"start":4325.2,"end":4326.2,"text":"這個法的目的"},{"start":4326.2,"end":4330.2,"text":"所以我一再跟各位委員報告就是說"},{"start":4330.2,"end":4332.2,"text":"這個法的立法目的不是"},{"start":4332.2,"end":4334.2,"text":"有啦 大家聽"},{"start":4334.2,"end":4335.2,"text":"翁委員聽得下啦"},{"start":4335.2,"end":4336.2,"text":"你這個說明很好啦"},{"start":4336.2,"end":4338.2,"text":"就是說我們也聽聽行政部門"},{"start":4338.2,"end":4339.2,"text":"像比如說"},{"start":4339.2,"end":4341.2,"text":"誒 市長我問你"},{"start":4341.2,"end":4344.2,"text":"開飛機的 誰要給他下令"},{"start":4344.2,"end":4347.2,"text":"開捷運的台北市捷運公司"},{"start":4347.2,"end":4349.2,"text":"捷運公司的誰就有"},{"start":4349.2,"end":4350.2,"text":"台北市政府當然可以啦"},{"start":4350.2,"end":4352.2,"text":"但是因為他是民"},{"start":4352.2,"end":4355.2,"text":"他又是公司耶"},{"start":4355.2,"end":4357.2,"text":"捷運公車"},{"start":4357.2,"end":4358.2,"text":"捷運的司機"},{"start":4358.2,"end":4360.2,"text":"或者公車的司機"},{"start":4360.2,"end":4363.2,"text":"要給他進行採驗的話"},{"start":4363.2,"end":4367.2,"text":"出院要比較迅速及時性"},{"start":4367.2,"end":4369.2,"text":"那什麼機關要給他行政部門"},{"start":4369.2,"end":4370.2,"text":"什麼要給他做"},{"start":4370.2,"end":4371.2,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":4371.2,"end":4372.2,"text":"因為這個法"},{"start":4372.2,"end":4374.2,"text":"授權訂了一個特定人員採驗辦法"},{"start":4374.2,"end":4377.2,"text":"採驗辦法裡面就有列出十種"},{"start":4377.2,"end":4379.2,"text":"目前為止大概有十個部會"},{"start":4379.2,"end":4381.2,"text":"剛剛委員提到就交通部"},{"start":4381.2,"end":4382.2,"text":"OK"},{"start":4382.2,"end":4384.2,"text":"交通部各自主管"},{"start":4384.2,"end":4385.2,"text":"按照他各自的屬性"},{"start":4385.2,"end":4386.2,"text":"他所列 他主要採取"},{"start":4386.2,"end":4387.2,"text":"地方機關呢"},{"start":4387.2,"end":4389.2,"text":"這沒有地方機關"},{"start":4389.2,"end":4390.2,"text":"地方機關"},{"start":4390.2,"end":4391.2,"text":"但是你剛才說到"},{"start":4391.2,"end":4392.2,"text":"你剛才說到"},{"start":4392.2,"end":4393.2,"text":"捷運的"},{"start":4393.2,"end":4396.2,"text":"為什麼當然是這種機關是台鐵"},{"start":4396.2,"end":4397.2,"text":"交通部"},{"start":4397.2,"end":4399.2,"text":"對 那各部會自己內部"},{"start":4399.2,"end":4401.2,"text":"怎麼去分公司各部會的事"},{"start":4401.2,"end":4402.2,"text":"就我們這個副表"},{"start":4402.2,"end":4404.2,"text":"包括內政部 國防部 教育部"},{"start":4404.2,"end":4406.2,"text":"法務部 經濟部 交通部"},{"start":4406.2,"end":4409.2,"text":"包括衛生福利部 海洋委員會"},{"start":4409.2,"end":4411.2,"text":"包括財政部 包括國安局"},{"start":4411.2,"end":4412.2,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":4412.2,"end":4414.2,"text":"其實委員其實這樣子"},{"start":4414.2,"end":4415.2,"text":"我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":4415.2,"end":4417.2,"text":"我們最容易最好溝通的地方"},{"start":4417.2,"end":4420.2,"text":"他確實他這個33條是要講的就是說"},{"start":4420.2,"end":4422.2,"text":"我要即時性"},{"start":4422.2,"end":4424.2,"text":"我一定要用最快的方法"},{"start":4424.2,"end":4426.2,"text":"第二說你講那個毛髮"},{"start":4426.2,"end":4428.2,"text":"那好像一個錄影帶的倒帶一樣"},{"start":4428.2,"end":4430.2,"text":"我從這個人吸毒以後"},{"start":4430.2,"end":4431.2,"text":"他進入血液"},{"start":4431.2,"end":4433.2,"text":"然後血液會到"},{"start":4433.2,"end":4435.2,"text":"這個整個毛髮裡面的一個殘留"},{"start":4435.2,"end":4437.2,"text":"我要追蹤你前半年"},{"start":4437.2,"end":4439.2,"text":"確實那個從毛髮來用的話"},{"start":4439.2,"end":4441.2,"text":"那個確實是非常有用"},{"start":4441.2,"end":4443.2,"text":"可是他現在規範的不是這個"},{"start":4443.2,"end":4445.2,"text":"他規範的那個不是犯罪偵查"},{"start":4445.2,"end":4447.2,"text":"我們現在33條是要讓他快速"},{"start":4447.2,"end":4448.2,"text":"要用什麼比較快"},{"start":4448.2,"end":4451.2,"text":"看一看開始有那麼多脫衣在上緊"},{"start":4451.2,"end":4454.2,"text":"所以他們今天要就請這邊提出這個"},{"start":4454.2,"end":4456.2,"text":"是不是大家也可以來支持"},{"start":4456.2,"end":4458.2,"text":"來再聽聽你們的看法"},{"start":4458.2,"end":4459.2,"text":"是 因為我想這個部分"},{"start":4459.2,"end":4461.2,"text":"我想脫衣我是絕對支持的"},{"start":4461.2,"end":4462.2,"text":"那現在的話"},{"start":4462.2,"end":4464.2,"text":"因為有些問題我還是想釐清"},{"start":4464.2,"end":4466.2,"text":"第一個就是說針對這個"},{"start":4466.2,"end":4469.2,"text":"剛剛講的你們那個篩檢的次數"},{"start":4469.2,"end":4472.2,"text":"還有期間是多久會篩檢一次"},{"start":4472.2,"end":4475.2,"text":"然後呢你們這個對於"},{"start":4475.2,"end":4477.2,"text":"像是剛剛講不管是開飛機啦"},{"start":4477.2,"end":4479.2,"text":"或者說是這個捷運的這司機"},{"start":4479.2,"end":4481.2,"text":"或是特定機關的"},{"start":4481.2,"end":4483.2,"text":"他可能會接觸到毒品的相關的人員"},{"start":4483.2,"end":4488.2,"text":"他們是一開始在擔任這個職務的時候"},{"start":4488.2,"end":4489.2,"text":"就做篩檢"},{"start":4489.2,"end":4492.2,"text":"之後是每一個月"},{"start":4492.2,"end":4494.2,"text":"還是每一天都要做篩檢"},{"start":4494.2,"end":4496.2,"text":"我現在講的是說"},{"start":4496.2,"end":4499.2,"text":"因為不管是脫衣或者是尿衣"},{"start":4499.2,"end":4501.2,"text":"他基本上他大概最多就三天"},{"start":4501.2,"end":4505.2,"text":"三天他可能他的這個毒性就過了"},{"start":4505.2,"end":4507.2,"text":"我如果是一個管理人員"},{"start":4507.2,"end":4512.2,"text":"我其實是很容易來規避你們這個篩檢的情形"},{"start":4512.2,"end":4514.2,"text":"也就是說我可能要開飛機之前"},{"start":4514.2,"end":4518.2,"text":"我三天之前我就先不要使用這個毒品"},{"start":4518.2,"end":4520.2,"text":"那你就採驗不到啦"},{"start":4520.2,"end":4521.2,"text":"但是對毛髮來講"},{"start":4521.2,"end":4522.2,"text":"它有個好處就是說"},{"start":4522.2,"end":4523.2,"text":"它至少可以知道說"},{"start":4523.2,"end":4527.2,"text":"這個人是不是曾經有過這樣的一個"},{"start":4527.2,"end":4529.2,"text":"吸毒的一個這樣一個紀錄"},{"start":4529.2,"end":4531.2,"text":"那麼所以如果他在一開始"},{"start":4531.2,"end":4532.2,"text":"要擔任這個職務的時候"},{"start":4532.2,"end":4534.2,"text":"他曾經有過這樣的情形"},{"start":4534.2,"end":4536.2,"text":"那當然就要審慎考慮要不要"},{"start":4536.2,"end":4539.2,"text":"要不要聘他來當這個捷運的司機"},{"start":4539.2,"end":4544.2,"text":"或是要不要他可以當這個開飛機的這個駕駛"},{"start":4544.2,"end":4546.2,"text":"這個當飛機的這個機師"},{"start":4546.2,"end":4548.2,"text":"所以我的想法是說"},{"start":4548.2,"end":4551.2,"text":"今天我們其實多一個方法"},{"start":4551.2,"end":4554.2,"text":"只是給這個主管機關"},{"start":4554.2,"end":4556.2,"text":"給現在的機關多一個選項"},{"start":4556.2,"end":4559.2,"text":"而且事實上他們因為所有的辦法"},{"start":4559.2,"end":4562.2,"text":"都是你們自己可以去去制定的"},{"start":4562.2,"end":4564.2,"text":"未來就是說我可以先優先"},{"start":4564.2,"end":4566.2,"text":"採取用尿液的方式檢驗"},{"start":4566.2,"end":4568.2,"text":"用唾液的方式檢驗"},{"start":4568.2,"end":4571.2,"text":"但是如果說用尿液跟唾液檢驗之後"},{"start":4571.2,"end":4573.2,"text":"還是發現說這個人怪怪的"},{"start":4573.2,"end":4576.2,"text":"其實有的時候看他好像走路不太穩"},{"start":4576.2,"end":4578.2,"text":"或是說他精神有點恍惚"},{"start":4578.2,"end":4581.2,"text":"這時候其實就可以用毛髮來檢測"},{"start":4581.2,"end":4584.2,"text":"因為毛髮他基本上可以從最短的時間"},{"start":4584.2,"end":4585.2,"text":"然後到最長的時間"},{"start":4585.2,"end":4587.2,"text":"他大概都可以檢測得出來"},{"start":4587.2,"end":4588.2,"text":"所以我不太了解就是說"},{"start":4588.2,"end":4590.2,"text":"今天我們其實好意就是"},{"start":4590.2,"end":4592.2,"text":"希望給主管機關多一個"},{"start":4592.2,"end":4594.2,"text":"可以去檢查的方法"},{"start":4594.2,"end":4598.2,"text":"那至於怎麼樣的去運用"},{"start":4598.2,"end":4599.2,"text":"你們這個檢驗的手段"},{"start":4599.2,"end":4601.2,"text":"就是你們自己可以決定的"},{"start":4601.2,"end":4603.2,"text":"但是我不太知道為什麼"},{"start":4603.2,"end":4605.2,"text":"法務部一直很排斥把毛髮"},{"start":4605.2,"end":4610.2,"text":"然後真定為這個檢驗的手段之一"},{"start":4611.2,"end":4613.2,"text":"可以先回答就是你們檢驗的次數"},{"start":4613.2,"end":4615.2,"text":"還有平常的檢驗的這個期間"},{"start":4620.2,"end":4622.2,"text":"次長再來回應一下"},{"start":4622.2,"end":4626.2,"text":"三十三條都總共23案"},{"start":4626.2,"end":4629.2,"text":"3案有提到毛髮"},{"start":4629.2,"end":4632.2,"text":"那當然翁委員提到那個部分"},{"start":4632.2,"end":4635.2,"text":"那確實是屬於犯罪偵查"},{"start":4635.2,"end":4636.2,"text":"次長講的就是說"},{"start":4636.2,"end":4639.2,"text":"這個出院的時候是要這種及時性的"},{"start":4639.2,"end":4642.2,"text":"所以我多一個拖曳進來就可以"},{"start":4642.2,"end":4644.2,"text":"那問題是說"},{"start":4644.2,"end":4646.2,"text":"翁委員的講法似乎是在講說"},{"start":4646.2,"end":4648.2,"text":"你毒品危害防治條例裡面"},{"start":4648.2,"end":4651.2,"text":"那主管機關我被發現的時候"},{"start":4652.2,"end":4654.2,"text":"我用其他的方式來"},{"start":4654.2,"end":4657.2,"text":"我沒一定只單純要處理及時性的"},{"start":4657.2,"end":4659.2,"text":"我可能也會認為說"},{"start":4659.2,"end":4661.2,"text":"我所受我監督的人"},{"start":4661.2,"end":4663.2,"text":"他到底是不是過去"},{"start":4663.2,"end":4665.2,"text":"他如果也有私用毒品的話"},{"start":4665.2,"end":4666.2,"text":"他確實啊"},{"start":4666.2,"end":4672.2,"text":"你就算是要針對這一些駕駛人員"},{"start":4672.2,"end":4674.2,"text":"不管是航空捷運"},{"start":4674.2,"end":4677.2,"text":"或者說反正就是動力的部分"},{"start":4677.2,"end":4679.2,"text":"這個人來篩出來"},{"start":4679.2,"end":4682.2,"text":"他也有這樣用毒品的一個習慣的話"},{"start":4682.2,"end":4684.2,"text":"這未必屬於犯罪偵查"},{"start":4684.2,"end":4687.2,"text":"他讓我篩出來以後"},{"start":4687.2,"end":4689.2,"text":"我覺得這個人都不適宜"},{"start":4689.2,"end":4692.2,"text":"來當這一些駕駛人員"},{"start":4692.2,"end":4693.2,"text":"問題在這個地方"},{"start":4693.2,"end":4695.2,"text":"那請聽起來有道理"},{"start":4695.2,"end":4697.2,"text":"那請次長再回應一下"},{"start":4697.2,"end":4699.2,"text":"好 更委員報告"},{"start":4699.2,"end":4702.2,"text":"那委員應該提到這個篩檢的頻度頻率的問題"},{"start":4702.2,"end":4704.2,"text":"其實我們的這個法通過"},{"start":4704.2,"end":4706.2,"text":"這個法通過這個法的授權辦法"},{"start":4706.2,"end":4708.2,"text":"其實有訂相關的篩檢"},{"start":4708.2,"end":4710.2,"text":"包括定期的篩檢"},{"start":4710.2,"end":4712.2,"text":"跟不定期的篩檢"},{"start":4712.2,"end":4715.2,"text":"那在授權各目的主管機關"},{"start":4715.2,"end":4717.2,"text":"我剛講有十個目的主管機關"},{"start":4717.2,"end":4719.2,"text":"各自在訂怎麼樣"},{"start":4719.2,"end":4722.2,"text":"更細部的一個這個事務性的篩檢方法"},{"start":4722.2,"end":4724.2,"text":"那這個辦法裡面除了定期篩檢"},{"start":4724.2,"end":4725.2,"text":"就還有不定期的篩檢"},{"start":4725.2,"end":4726.2,"text":"什麼叫不定期篩檢"},{"start":4726.2,"end":4728.2,"text":"包括受僱篩檢"},{"start":4728.2,"end":4729.2,"text":"包括懷疑檢驗"},{"start":4729.2,"end":4730.2,"text":"意外檢驗"},{"start":4730.2,"end":4732.2,"text":"隨機檢驗"},{"start":4732.2,"end":4733.2,"text":"很多"},{"start":4733.2,"end":4734.2,"text":"換句話就說主管機關"},{"start":4734.2,"end":4737.2,"text":"他可以各自基於各自的行政目的"},{"start":4737.2,"end":4741.2,"text":"他可以做相關的頻度的這個篩檢"},{"start":4741.2,"end":4742.2,"text":"所以剛委員所提到的"},{"start":4742.2,"end":4743.2,"text":"除了定期之外"},{"start":4743.2,"end":4744.2,"text":"還有不定期"},{"start":4744.2,"end":4745.2,"text":"還有各種狀況"},{"start":4745.2,"end":4746.2,"text":"他都可以篩檢"},{"start":4746.2,"end":4747.2,"text":"主管機關都可以篩檢"},{"start":4747.2,"end":4748.2,"text":"舉個例子"},{"start":4748.2,"end":4750.2,"text":"譬如說以交通部或內政部"},{"start":4750.2,"end":4752.2,"text":"他們現在的辦法是怎麼訂的"},{"start":4752.2,"end":4753.2,"text":"因為我們其實沒有看到"},{"start":4753.2,"end":4758.2,"text":"這個更細緻的檢驗的作業辦法"},{"start":4758.2,"end":4761.2,"text":"他們是每一個禮拜到檢查一次"},{"start":4761.2,"end":4762.2,"text":"還是他們是上飛機"},{"start":4762.2,"end":4765.2,"text":"還是就是要開始執行他們工作之前"},{"start":4765.2,"end":4766.2,"text":"就要檢驗"},{"start":4766.2,"end":4768.2,"text":"因為我是認為說"},{"start":4768.2,"end":4771.2,"text":"這個剛剛其實次長這邊說法"},{"start":4771.2,"end":4773.2,"text":"有些地方是我不太能接受的"},{"start":4773.2,"end":4776.2,"text":"你說剪頭髮就是一種強制"},{"start":4776.2,"end":4779.2,"text":"會侵害到個人的尊嚴"},{"start":4779.2,"end":4783.2,"text":"會有侵害人格權之虞"},{"start":4783.2,"end":4785.2,"text":"但你說如果說今天去尿檢"},{"start":4785.2,"end":4786.2,"text":"也是一樣"},{"start":4786.2,"end":4788.2,"text":"如果當事人他就不願意尿檢"},{"start":4788.2,"end":4790.2,"text":"或他不願意把他嘴巴張開"},{"start":4790.2,"end":4791.2,"text":"去進行唾液的篩檢"},{"start":4791.2,"end":4794.2,"text":"這同樣是侵害個人的人格權"},{"start":4794.2,"end":4796.2,"text":"所以其實如果說對我一個"},{"start":4796.2,"end":4799.2,"text":"假設我今天我是相關的工作人員"},{"start":4799.2,"end":4800.2,"text":"我今天要被檢視"},{"start":4800.2,"end":4801.2,"text":"我寧可就說"},{"start":4801.2,"end":4803.2,"text":"你就幫我反正女生頭髮長"},{"start":4803.2,"end":4804.2,"text":"我就剪個幾根"},{"start":4804.2,"end":4806.2,"text":"你不可能剪一搓吧"},{"start":4806.2,"end":4807.2,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4807.2,"end":4808.2,"text":"他就大概剪個幾根頭髮"},{"start":4808.2,"end":4810.2,"text":"就可以去檢驗了"},{"start":4810.2,"end":4811.2,"text":"對 就這個部分來講"},{"start":4811.2,"end":4813.2,"text":"其實剛剛部長的說法"},{"start":4813.2,"end":4815.2,"text":"其實不太能說服我"},{"start":4815.2,"end":4816.2,"text":"抱歉我想補充一下"},{"start":4816.2,"end":4818.2,"text":"就是說因為這個裡面"},{"start":4818.2,"end":4820.2,"text":"還有包含到學校的學生"},{"start":4820.2,"end":4821.2,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":4821.2,"end":4823.2,"text":"我剛剛聽起來是這樣子"},{"start":4823.2,"end":4824.2,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":4825.2,"end":4826.2,"text":"是有學生嗎"},{"start":4826.2,"end":4829.2,"text":"因為主管機關所監督之特定人員"},{"start":4829.2,"end":4830.2,"text":"這個有包含到學生嗎"},{"start":4830.2,"end":4831.2,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4831.2,"end":4833.2,"text":"對啊 因為有學生"},{"start":4833.2,"end":4834.2,"text":"那我覺得這東西"},{"start":4834.2,"end":4836.2,"text":"如果去增加模仿的話"},{"start":4836.2,"end":4837.2,"text":"我自己會擔心"},{"start":4837.2,"end":4838.2,"text":"這個是現場在執行面"},{"start":4838.2,"end":4841.2,"text":"會造成老師的困難"},{"start":4841.2,"end":4843.2,"text":"因為這個是過去"},{"start":4843.2,"end":4845.2,"text":"我們之所以法禁的時候"},{"start":4845.2,"end":4846.2,"text":"有很多的人"},{"start":4846.2,"end":4848.2,"text":"其實都會可能都有那個經驗"},{"start":4848.2,"end":4850.2,"text":"那所以大家其實對於自己的毛髮"},{"start":4850.2,"end":4852.2,"text":"屬於自己個人的形象"},{"start":4852.2,"end":4853.2,"text":"在現在的年輕世代"},{"start":4853.2,"end":4855.2,"text":"是更根深蒂固的"},{"start":4855.2,"end":4856.2,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":4856.2,"end":4857.2,"text":"如果今天要拓展這件事情的話"},{"start":4857.2,"end":4859.2,"text":"等於我們開放了這樣子的授權"},{"start":4859.2,"end":4861.2,"text":"我擔心這會造成"},{"start":4861.2,"end":4863.2,"text":"現場的青師生的衝突"},{"start":4863.2,"end":4864.2,"text":"會更加劇烈"},{"start":4864.2,"end":4866.2,"text":"所以這個意見"},{"start":4866.2,"end":4867.2,"text":"我也想要聽聽看"},{"start":4867.2,"end":4868.2,"text":"這個法務部的意見"},{"start":4868.2,"end":4870.2,"text":"是不是有考量到這個部分"},{"start":4870.2,"end":4871.2,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4873.2,"end":4874.2,"text":"好 那各位報告"},{"start":4874.2,"end":4876.2,"text":"無論是採取尿疫"},{"start":4876.2,"end":4878.2,"text":"唾液或毛髮或血液"},{"start":4878.2,"end":4880.2,"text":"當然對人身自由或人格權"},{"start":4880.2,"end":4881.2,"text":"都會產生干預"},{"start":4881.2,"end":4882.2,"text":"這是無庸置疑"},{"start":4882.2,"end":4883.2,"text":"所以我們必須要法律規定"},{"start":4883.2,"end":4884.2,"text":"所以我們今天必須要"},{"start":4884.2,"end":4885.2,"text":"有法律的授權"},{"start":4885.2,"end":4886.2,"text":"我們才可以做"},{"start":4886.2,"end":4889.2,"text":"只是說各種法律的干預"},{"start":4889.2,"end":4890.2,"text":"人身自由的干預"},{"start":4890.2,"end":4891.2,"text":"人格權的干預"},{"start":4891.2,"end":4892.2,"text":"它有不同的強度"},{"start":4892.2,"end":4894.2,"text":"行政上目的的強度"},{"start":4894.2,"end":4895.2,"text":"還是犯罪偵查的強度"},{"start":4895.2,"end":4897.2,"text":"我們今天就行政目的的強度"},{"start":4897.2,"end":4899.2,"text":"我們開放尿疫跟唾液"},{"start":4899.2,"end":4901.2,"text":"我覺得這個對人身"},{"start":4901.2,"end":4903.2,"text":"因為就法律授權"},{"start":4903.2,"end":4904.2,"text":"我們就允許"},{"start":4904.2,"end":4905.2,"text":"但是對毛髮"},{"start":4905.2,"end":4906.2,"text":"各位委員"},{"start":4906.2,"end":4909.2,"text":"我們毛髮要做鑑定"},{"start":4909.2,"end":4911.2,"text":"我們刑訴訴訟法裡面"},{"start":4911.2,"end":4912.2,"text":"205條之二"},{"start":4912.2,"end":4913.2,"text":"它必須要是逮捕的"},{"start":4913.2,"end":4915.2,"text":"現行犯 司法警察"},{"start":4915.2,"end":4917.2,"text":"才可以採它的毛髮"},{"start":4918.2,"end":4919.2,"text":"那你如果說是"},{"start":4919.2,"end":4920.2,"text":"要血液的話"},{"start":4920.2,"end":4921.2,"text":"要205之一"},{"start":4921.2,"end":4923.2,"text":"要檢察官的令狀許可"},{"start":4923.2,"end":4924.2,"text":"法官的令狀許可"},{"start":4924.2,"end":4927.2,"text":"才可以進入採毛髮採血液"},{"start":4927.2,"end":4929.2,"text":"所以它是不同的人格權"},{"start":4929.2,"end":4931.2,"text":"或這個人身自由權的干預"},{"start":4931.2,"end":4934.2,"text":"它要法律做不同的保障"},{"start":4934.2,"end":4936.2,"text":"所以我們今天為什麼要"},{"start":4936.2,"end":4937.2,"text":"進入大院同意"},{"start":4937.2,"end":4939.2,"text":"它的確會造成人格的侵害"},{"start":4939.2,"end":4940.2,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":4940.2,"end":4941.2,"text":"即使是尿疫 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藝人啦 紅魔啦 都有啦"},{"start":5161.2,"end":5164.2,"text":"我懂翁委員的 翁召偉的意思啦"},{"start":5164.2,"end":5165.2,"text":"我不想插嘴啦"},{"start":5165.2,"end":5167.2,"text":"但是我再提醒一下就是說"},{"start":5167.2,"end":5169.2,"text":"其實它這個爭點在什麼地方呢"},{"start":5169.2,"end":5171.2,"text":"爭點就是說"},{"start":5171.2,"end":5176.2,"text":"我們要不要授權到連毛法都可以啦"},{"start":5176.2,"end":5182.2,"text":"你真的會跟人家到連毛法的檢測"},{"start":5182.2,"end":5184.2,"text":"我懂翁召偉的意思"},{"start":5184.2,"end":5185.2,"text":"你的意思就是說"},{"start":5185.2,"end":5186.2,"text":"我讓你行政部門"},{"start":5186.2,"end":5188.2,"text":"我給你一個武器啊"},{"start":5188.2,"end":5189.2,"text":"你的問題在這個地方"},{"start":5189.2,"end":5191.2,"text":"可是這個我很擔心"},{"start":5191.2,"end":5193.2,"text":"你去看看我們喔"},{"start":5193.2,"end":5194.2,"text":"光在九測就好了"},{"start":5194.2,"end":5196.2,"text":"我們通過了法令喔"},{"start":5196.2,"end":5199.2,"text":"我們這樣對基層員警"},{"start":5199.2,"end":5200.2,"text":"比較不好意思啦"},{"start":5200.2,"end":5201.2,"text":"但是就有少數"},{"start":5201.2,"end":5203.2,"text":"你廠長你看"},{"start":5203.2,"end":5205.2,"text":"攔檢 九測攔檢喔"},{"start":5205.2,"end":5207.2,"text":"他就無差別每一步給你攔下來"},{"start":5207.2,"end":5208.2,"text":"你知道嗎"},{"start":5208.2,"end":5209.2,"text":"你很想跟他說"},{"start":5209.2,"end":5211.2,"text":"你是在你比較有這麼大的權限"},{"start":5211.2,"end":5213.2,"text":"你怎麼可以整條路的車子"},{"start":5213.2,"end":5214.2,"text":"全部攔下來"},{"start":5214.2,"end":5215.2,"text":"大家塞成一團"},{"start":5215.2,"end":5217.2,"text":"但也不是說我警察有權限"},{"start":5217.2,"end":5218.2,"text":"我們授予他權限啊"},{"start":5218.2,"end":5219.2,"text":"我要九測啊"},{"start":5219.2,"end":5220.2,"text":"有的人就是"},{"start":5220.2,"end":5221.2,"text":"嘿 我就是警察"},{"start":5221.2,"end":5223.2,"text":"每次我都給他炸下來"},{"start":5223.2,"end":5225.2,"text":"他沒有那種權限你知道嗎"},{"start":5225.2,"end":5227.2,"text":"你要有一個合理性啊"},{"start":5227.2,"end":5228.2,"text":"所以我被"},{"start":5228.2,"end":5230.2,"text":"我以前在當台北市議員的時候"},{"start":5230.2,"end":5231.2,"text":"我都問他"},{"start":5231.2,"end":5234.2,"text":"你憑什麼給我炸下來"},{"start":5234.2,"end":5236.2,"text":"我又怕人家說我當議員"},{"start":5236.2,"end":5239.2,"text":"好像我在耍那種威風"},{"start":5239.2,"end":5240.2,"text":"其實我不是"},{"start":5240.2,"end":5242.2,"text":"我就說你憑什麼把我攔下來"},{"start":5242.2,"end":5243.2,"text":"他說法律的規定"},{"start":5243.2,"end":5244.2,"text":"我就問他說"},{"start":5244.2,"end":5246.2,"text":"你麻煩告訴我法律規定在哪裡"},{"start":5246.2,"end":5247.2,"text":"不然你要怎麼辦"},{"start":5247.2,"end":5249.2,"text":"很麻煩你知道嗎"},{"start":5249.2,"end":5252.2,"text":"那就是說他就是"},{"start":5253.2,"end":5255.2,"text":"沒有節制性的"},{"start":5255.2,"end":5257.2,"text":"其實警察是不能這樣子的"},{"start":5257.2,"end":5258.2,"text":"就是說你要攔檢"},{"start":5258.2,"end":5260.2,"text":"你要看看你到底"},{"start":5260.2,"end":5261.2,"text":"有沒有什麼"},{"start":5261.2,"end":5263.2,"text":"我有蛇形沒有啦"},{"start":5263.2,"end":5266.2,"text":"或是我我剛問炸下來的時候"},{"start":5266.2,"end":5268.2,"text":"我是不是喝酒有酒味"},{"start":5268.2,"end":5269.2,"text":"那不是"},{"start":5269.2,"end":5270.2,"text":"每一步全部給你攔"},{"start":5270.2,"end":5271.2,"text":"就看他心情"},{"start":5271.2,"end":5272.2,"text":"這也不對"},{"start":5272.2,"end":5273.2,"text":"那我擔心的是說"},{"start":5273.2,"end":5274.2,"text":"你這個提案出來"},{"start":5274.2,"end":5276.2,"text":"因為他這一條33條要處理的"},{"start":5276.2,"end":5277.2,"text":"院板的部分"},{"start":5277.2,"end":5279.2,"text":"為什麼20幾個條"},{"start":5279.2,"end":5281.2,"text":"版本只有3個有毛髮的部分"},{"start":5281.2,"end":5283.2,"text":"我相信大家也有考慮到"},{"start":5283.2,"end":5286.2,"text":"要不要授權到你說毛髮的部分"},{"start":5286.2,"end":5288.2,"text":"那真的是屬於犯罪偵查"},{"start":5288.2,"end":5290.2,"text":"一般你說行政部門"},{"start":5290.2,"end":5293.2,"text":"要找人幫你找一支頭髮"},{"start":5293.2,"end":5295.2,"text":"這麼簡單開什麼玩笑"},{"start":5295.2,"end":5297.2,"text":"他還可以來一支頭髮"},{"start":5297.2,"end":5299.2,"text":"會不會說你可能有吸毒"},{"start":5299.2,"end":5301.2,"text":"你放在那邊噴的噴的"},{"start":5301.2,"end":5302.2,"text":"沒辦法你知道嗎"},{"start":5302.2,"end":5303.2,"text":"我自己扔給他"},{"start":5303.2,"end":5304.2,"text":"是啦我意思是說"},{"start":5304.2,"end":5306.2,"text":"當事人願意沒話講"},{"start":5306.2,"end":5307.2,"text":"我意思就是說"},{"start":5307.2,"end":5310.2,"text":"這個強度有涉及到人生的"},{"start":5310.2,"end":5311.2,"text":"一個侵害的部分"},{"start":5311.2,"end":5312.2,"text":"也請考慮一下"},{"start":5312.2,"end":5314.2,"text":"但提供這個見解很好"},{"start":5314.2,"end":5319.2,"text":"我這一次我是對黃次長的"},{"start":5319.2,"end":5321.2,"text":"他的見解我不一定每次"},{"start":5321.2,"end":5323.2,"text":"都會遵照他的意思"},{"start":5323.2,"end":5325.2,"text":"我就覺得他這一次講的是"},{"start":5325.2,"end":5326.2,"text":"很合理"},{"start":5326.2,"end":5328.2,"text":"我們是不是這個採院版"},{"start":5328.2,"end":5329.2,"text":"好不"},{"start":5329.2,"end":5330.2,"text":"我先再補充一些"},{"start":5330.2,"end":5331.2,"text":"沒關係你盡量"},{"start":5331.2,"end":5332.2,"text":"我盡量給你表達你的意見"},{"start":5332.2,"end":5335.2,"text":"就是說我想要再聽聽看教育部"},{"start":5335.2,"end":5337.2,"text":"因為今天教育部也有來"},{"start":5337.2,"end":5338.2,"text":"就是因為我剛剛擔心的就是說"},{"start":5338.2,"end":5340.2,"text":"這個如果我們授權這件事情的話"},{"start":5340.2,"end":5343.2,"text":"會不會在現場上面造成什麼樣子的問題"},{"start":5343.2,"end":5345.2,"text":"是不是可以請教育部"},{"start":5349.2,"end":5351.2,"text":"來要不要發揮一下"},{"start":5351.2,"end":5353.2,"text":"專門委員今天有來"},{"start":5353.2,"end":5354.2,"text":"但是我怕你不知道"},{"start":5354.2,"end":5356.2,"text":"這是不是你的專長"},{"start":5356.2,"end":5359.2,"text":"何淑瑜有來嗎"},{"start":5359.2,"end":5360.2,"text":"有來的嗎"},{"start":5360.2,"end":5362.2,"text":"那你們有來的人不在"},{"start":5363.2,"end":5365.2,"text":"來算了給我投算你"},{"start":5367.2,"end":5368.2,"text":"那是考機法"},{"start":5368.2,"end":5369.2,"text":"是的是的是的"},{"start":5369.2,"end":5373.2,"text":"所以針對這個教育部的"},{"start":5373.2,"end":5375.2,"text":"你這他們也不一定有專人"},{"start":5375.2,"end":5378.2,"text":"在這裡有部他們也不一定說得出來"},{"start":5378.2,"end":5379.2,"text":"請問一下經濟部"},{"start":5379.2,"end":5381.2,"text":"經濟部是不是也被指定"},{"start":5381.2,"end":5383.2,"text":"就是要針對檢查的"},{"start":5383.2,"end":5384.2,"text":"是不是"},{"start":5384.2,"end":5386.2,"text":"他那是考機法的"},{"start":5386.2,"end":5387.2,"text":"那是考機法的嗎"},{"start":5387.2,"end":5388.2,"text":"對"},{"start":5388.2,"end":5389.2,"text":"所以針對毒品"},{"start":5389.2,"end":5390.2,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":5390.2,"end":5392.2,"text":"是邀請有哪些單位"},{"start":5392.2,"end":5395.2,"text":"今天是法務部"},{"start":5395.2,"end":5397.2,"text":"內政部"},{"start":5397.2,"end":5398.2,"text":"衛福部"},{"start":5398.2,"end":5400.2,"text":"國防部"},{"start":5403.2,"end":5404.2,"text":"這四個"},{"start":5404.2,"end":5407.2,"text":"那個讀委的是這四個單位"},{"start":5407.2,"end":5409.2,"text":"跟經濟部沒關係"},{"start":5409.2,"end":5411.2,"text":"我想要講的就是說"},{"start":5411.2,"end":5412.2,"text":"因為就是因為"},{"start":5412.2,"end":5414.2,"text":"他就是一個行政管理的手段"},{"start":5414.2,"end":5416.2,"text":"所以他並不是一個犯罪偵查"},{"start":5416.2,"end":5419.2,"text":"那麼我們對於就是我們要接受管理的"},{"start":5419.2,"end":5421.2,"text":"被管理的這些公務員們"},{"start":5421.2,"end":5424.2,"text":"那麼事實上他們都理解"},{"start":5424.2,"end":5426.2,"text":"他們擔任這個職務"},{"start":5426.2,"end":5429.2,"text":"必須要有更高的一個道德"},{"start":5429.2,"end":5431.2,"text":"或是一個健康的一些標準"},{"start":5431.2,"end":5434.2,"text":"他們不可以去碰毒品的這件事情"},{"start":5434.2,"end":5436.2,"text":"那麼既然是如此的話"},{"start":5436.2,"end":5437.2,"text":"那麼事實上"},{"start":5437.2,"end":5440.2,"text":"在整個的行政管理的檢驗措施方面"},{"start":5440.2,"end":5442.2,"text":"如果能夠讓大家覺得更方便"},{"start":5442.2,"end":5444.2,"text":"然後更迅速更有效率"},{"start":5444.2,"end":5446.2,"text":"我不懂得這有什麼不好"},{"start":5446.2,"end":5448.2,"text":"那剛剛部長剛剛次長一直講"},{"start":5448.2,"end":5452.2,"text":"會涉及到人格權"},{"start":5452.2,"end":5456.2,"text":"人身自由的一個高強度的一個侵害"},{"start":5456.2,"end":5459.2,"text":"我真的我的整個想法是跟你是不一樣啦"},{"start":5459.2,"end":5461.2,"text":"所以我要請"},{"start":5461.2,"end":5462.2,"text":"剛剛次長沒有回答我"},{"start":5462.2,"end":5466.2,"text":"如果說今天被管理的這個公務員"},{"start":5466.2,"end":5469.2,"text":"他拒絕驗藥說你們要怎麼做"},{"start":5469.2,"end":5471.2,"text":"你們要怎麼做"},{"start":5471.2,"end":5474.2,"text":"如果拒絕接受唾液篩檢"},{"start":5474.2,"end":5476.2,"text":"你們要怎麼做"},{"start":5476.2,"end":5482.2,"text":"然後如果說一個聰明的這個公務員"},{"start":5482.2,"end":5485.2,"text":"他曉得你這個驗的時間"},{"start":5485.2,"end":5487.2,"text":"他可以規避"},{"start":5487.2,"end":5492.2,"text":"因為透過尿液的排出去"},{"start":5492.2,"end":5494.2,"text":"大概就差不多72小時嘛"},{"start":5494.2,"end":5498.2,"text":"唾液的話可能更快"},{"start":5498.2,"end":5501.2,"text":"他可能三天四天前他就先不碰"},{"start":5501.2,"end":5502.2,"text":"他就一直忍著忍"},{"start":5502.2,"end":5504.2,"text":"忍到你們檢查完之後"},{"start":5504.2,"end":5505.2,"text":"然後他才做"},{"start":5505.2,"end":5509.2,"text":"然後你剛剛講的懷疑的檢驗也是一樣"},{"start":5509.2,"end":5511.2,"text":"所以如果說你們未來可以"},{"start":5511.2,"end":5513.2,"text":"在這幾種不同的方式裡面"},{"start":5513.2,"end":5516.2,"text":"你們可以就是有一個優先順序"},{"start":5516.2,"end":5518.2,"text":"而且對於毛髮的檢測"},{"start":5518.2,"end":5519.2,"text":"你們認為說"},{"start":5519.2,"end":5520.2,"text":"假設他是一個"},{"start":5520.2,"end":5521.2,"text":"在這三個手段裡面"},{"start":5521.2,"end":5523.2,"text":"他是一個最後的手段"},{"start":5523.2,"end":5525.2,"text":"我前面兩個都請不通的時候"},{"start":5525.2,"end":5527.2,"text":"我可以用第三個手段"},{"start":5527.2,"end":5529.2,"text":"來做"},{"start":5529.2,"end":5531.2,"text":"這有什麼不好呢"},{"start":5531.2,"end":5533.2,"text":"我們大家基本上都希望"},{"start":5533.2,"end":5535.2,"text":"尤其是執法的公務員"},{"start":5535.2,"end":5537.2,"text":"他不要去碰毒品"},{"start":5537.2,"end":5539.2,"text":"可是你們現在這個做法"},{"start":5539.2,"end":5541.2,"text":"會讓我覺得某種程度來講"},{"start":5541.2,"end":5543.2,"text":"其實你們就告訴這些執法公務員"},{"start":5543.2,"end":5545.2,"text":"我如果說我真的有這樣的一個情況的話"},{"start":5545.2,"end":5547.2,"text":"我可以透過很多方式去規避"},{"start":5547.2,"end":5549.2,"text":"透過毛髮檢驗至少可以知道說"},{"start":5549.2,"end":5552.2,"text":"他這幾天或他過去一兩個月"},{"start":5552.2,"end":5553.2,"text":"或他更早之前"},{"start":5553.2,"end":5554.2,"text":"他有沒有吸毒過"},{"start":5554.2,"end":5555.2,"text":"他如果有吸毒過"},{"start":5555.2,"end":5558.2,"text":"他根本不適合擔任這種重要的公務"},{"start":5558.2,"end":5560.2,"text":"去執行這些重要的公務手段"},{"start":5560.2,"end":5562.2,"text":"去執行這些重要的職務"},{"start":5562.2,"end":5564.2,"text":"這個是我的看法"},{"start":5567.2,"end":5571.2,"text":"這個開始有人權的部分"},{"start":5571.2,"end":5573.2,"text":"確實有比例原則"},{"start":5573.2,"end":5577.2,"text":"是不是要到毛髮的部分"},{"start":5577.2,"end":5580.2,"text":"那涉及到你行政"},{"start":5580.2,"end":5583.2,"text":"你這個定義是一個"},{"start":5584.2,"end":5589.2,"text":"學者專家我有看過他們大家的意見"},{"start":5589.2,"end":5592.2,"text":"就是說青海本來就是要採比較最小的"},{"start":5592.2,"end":5596.2,"text":"那你33條的目的確實你是針對防治特定人"},{"start":5596.2,"end":5599.2,"text":"譬如說軍人、書記"},{"start":5599.2,"end":5601.2,"text":"或是校園特定對象"},{"start":5601.2,"end":5604.2,"text":"當然就是說是在看說他們這個"},{"start":5604.2,"end":5608.2,"text":"毒品氾濫或者影響植物安全的行為"},{"start":5608.2,"end":5611.2,"text":"你說去強制採驗毛髮"},{"start":5611.2,"end":5614.2,"text":"這就是說你譬如說我任職"},{"start":5614.2,"end":5618.2,"text":"以前我一個拜年可以任職"},{"start":5618.2,"end":5620.2,"text":"你如果給我採毛髮"},{"start":5620.2,"end":5626.2,"text":"這個等同追蹤到我還未就職之前的前面"},{"start":5626.2,"end":5630.2,"text":"你這個行政機關到底有沒有這個權限的問題"},{"start":5630.2,"end":5632.2,"text":"所以會有個人隱私"},{"start":5632.2,"end":5636.2,"text":"我去看法務部跟學者專家這個部分"},{"start":5636.2,"end":5639.2,"text":"我是看到法務部"},{"start":5639.2,"end":5640.2,"text":"我懂你的意思"},{"start":5640.2,"end":5644.2,"text":"這一次很不容易的就是說行政部門"},{"start":5644.2,"end":5645.2,"text":"尤其是法務部"},{"start":5645.2,"end":5648.2,"text":"他認為這個會有侵害到人權的部分"},{"start":5648.2,"end":5651.2,"text":"這個我反而會覺得他們是不簡單"},{"start":5651.2,"end":5652.2,"text":"反而是不簡單"},{"start":5652.2,"end":5654.2,"text":"不然行政部門像法務部的立場"},{"start":5654.2,"end":5656.2,"text":"你給我更多的武器"},{"start":5656.2,"end":5657.2,"text":"我會更好"},{"start":5657.2,"end":5660.2,"text":"法務部門讓人家覺得他們只需要武器"},{"start":5660.2,"end":5662.2,"text":"人權好像就比較沒有那麼的注重"},{"start":5662.2,"end":5665.2,"text":"那這一次整個修法的一個"},{"start":5666.2,"end":5669.2,"text":"我看剛次長有講"},{"start":5669.2,"end":5671.2,"text":"法院的目的"},{"start":5671.2,"end":5677.2,"text":"行政監控跟刑事偵查其實真的確實是不一樣"},{"start":5677.2,"end":5679.2,"text":"是不是大家可以考慮一下"},{"start":5679.2,"end":5681.2,"text":"你如果說在司法事務裡面"},{"start":5681.2,"end":5683.2,"text":"你如果有明確的犯罪罪嫌"},{"start":5683.2,"end":5685.2,"text":"你本來刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":5685.2,"end":5690.2,"text":"本來就有規定來進行刑事上的毛髮的一個檢驗"},{"start":5690.2,"end":5694.2,"text":"你33條這是一種例行性無差別的行政的抽查"},{"start":5694.2,"end":5697.2,"text":"你要強制到連毛髮都可以"},{"start":5697.2,"end":5700.2,"text":"我反而會覺得確實要有法官保留"},{"start":5700.2,"end":5702.2,"text":"跟嚴格的一個程序保障"},{"start":5702.2,"end":5706.2,"text":"我比較贊成法務部這樣的一個看法"},{"start":5706.2,"end":5710.2,"text":"不知道 黃委員這樣可以說服你嗎"},{"start":5711.2,"end":5714.2,"text":"我就說我還想聽聽看次長就是說"},{"start":5714.2,"end":5716.2,"text":"對於拒絕尿檢"},{"start":5716.2,"end":5719.2,"text":"拒絕唾液篩檢的人你們的執行方式是什麼"},{"start":5719.2,"end":5722.2,"text":"可不可以請你講一下整個流程好不好"},{"start":5722.2,"end":5723.2,"text":"又可以讓我們知道"},{"start":5723.2,"end":5725.2,"text":"到底他侵害人格的強度"},{"start":5725.2,"end":5729.2,"text":"跟這個去剪頭髮的強度是哪一個比較強嗎"},{"start":5729.2,"end":5733.2,"text":"而且我剛剛講了他除了出任可能需要做檢驗"},{"start":5733.2,"end":5736.2,"text":"之後你隨便舉一個單位"},{"start":5736.2,"end":5737.2,"text":"譬如說交通部"},{"start":5737.2,"end":5739.2,"text":"你們現在應該有相關的辦法"},{"start":5739.2,"end":5743.2,"text":"講一講他們大概是多久會做定期的篩檢"},{"start":5745.2,"end":5747.2,"text":"來 次長"},{"start":5747.2,"end":5749.2,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":5749.2,"end":5754.2,"text":"當然委員可以提供各種方法來提供檢驗"},{"start":5754.2,"end":5756.2,"text":"當然就行政機關的角度來講"},{"start":5756.2,"end":5758.2,"text":"當然理論上是越多越好"},{"start":5758.2,"end":5760.2,"text":"甚至不僅毛法"},{"start":5760.2,"end":5762.2,"text":"包括血液甚至條文裡面授權"},{"start":5762.2,"end":5765.2,"text":"其他可行的方法都授權行政機關來處理"},{"start":5765.2,"end":5768.2,"text":"當然行政機關沒有人會反對"},{"start":5768.2,"end":5772.2,"text":"只是站在一個法規的主管機關來講"},{"start":5772.2,"end":5774.2,"text":"我們必須要再次強調就是說"},{"start":5774.2,"end":5778.2,"text":"檢驗方法裡面他必須要有層級化不同的處理"},{"start":5778.2,"end":5780.2,"text":"我們現在血液的檢驗方法"},{"start":5780.2,"end":5782.2,"text":"我們憲判制連警察"},{"start":5782.2,"end":5784.2,"text":"我們一一一憲判一致"},{"start":5784.2,"end":5788.2,"text":"警察在造勢之後抽血這種抽血都被憲告違憲了"},{"start":5788.2,"end":5790.2,"text":"血液被憲告違憲"},{"start":5790.2,"end":5793.2,"text":"然後我們205-2毛法"},{"start":5793.2,"end":5796.2,"text":"他是僅限於司法警察逮捕中的憲警"},{"start":5796.2,"end":5797.2,"text":"不然才可以去採毛法"},{"start":5797.2,"end":5800.2,"text":"這是犯罪偵查都已經保障到這種程度"},{"start":5801.2,"end":5804.2,"text":"那在行政管理行政目的上"},{"start":5804.2,"end":5807.2,"text":"要不要開放授權到這個程度"},{"start":5807.2,"end":5811.2,"text":"我再次強調行政機關越多檢驗的工具我們越歡迎"},{"start":5811.2,"end":5814.2,"text":"只是我站在一個法規的目的主管機關"},{"start":5814.2,"end":5817.2,"text":"我們必須要做法律人該講的話"},{"start":5817.2,"end":5820.2,"text":"這個我必須要再次強調"},{"start":5820.2,"end":5822.2,"text":"剛委員一直在強調就是說"},{"start":5822.2,"end":5824.2,"text":"假如拒絕的話應該怎麼辦"},{"start":5824.2,"end":5827.2,"text":"我們33條的規範"},{"start":5828.2,"end":5830.2,"text":"如果這個授材裁員拒絕的話"},{"start":5830.2,"end":5833.2,"text":"條子規定可以拘束他的身體刑事"},{"start":5833.2,"end":5834.2,"text":"只可以拘束他的身體"},{"start":5834.2,"end":5836.2,"text":"沒有進一步規範的"},{"start":5836.2,"end":5837.2,"text":"換句話說"},{"start":5837.2,"end":5839.2,"text":"沒有 你沒有仔細看那個辦法"},{"start":5839.2,"end":5841.2,"text":"我昨天可是看了那個辦法"},{"start":5841.2,"end":5843.2,"text":"你們要不要把你們訂的授權辦法"},{"start":5843.2,"end":5845.2,"text":"仔細的去拿出來看"},{"start":5845.2,"end":5847.2,"text":"慢慢看 我們都有看"},{"start":5847.2,"end":5848.2,"text":"大家都有看"},{"start":5848.2,"end":5849.2,"text":"慢慢講"},{"start":5849.2,"end":5850.2,"text":"他就是必要是"},{"start":5850.2,"end":5852.2,"text":"他就是母法來拘束他的身體刑事"},{"start":5852.2,"end":5854.2,"text":"因為你們有訂定"},{"start":5854.2,"end":5855.2,"text":"就是"},{"start":5855.2,"end":5856.2,"text":"第七條"},{"start":5856.2,"end":5858.2,"text":"33條的第二項"},{"start":5858.2,"end":5861.2,"text":"前項特定人員的範圍及採驗"},{"start":5861.2,"end":5864.2,"text":"採驗尿液的辦法遊行正願訂知"},{"start":5864.2,"end":5867.2,"text":"所以我有看到你們採驗尿液的實施辦法"},{"start":5867.2,"end":5869.2,"text":"辦法裡面第七條必要時的拘束"},{"start":5869.2,"end":5870.2,"text":"其實是身體刑事"},{"start":5870.2,"end":5872.2,"text":"然後程序呢"},{"start":5872.2,"end":5875.2,"text":"程序的話是要有人陪著進去"},{"start":5875.2,"end":5877.2,"text":"那個廁所裡面"},{"start":5877.2,"end":5880.2,"text":"然後來協助採尿"},{"start":5882.2,"end":5883.2,"text":"對啊 這採尿"},{"start":5883.2,"end":5885.2,"text":"對啊 這採尿跟拘束神聖自由沒有錯"},{"start":5885.2,"end":5888.2,"text":"之後協助採尿跟拘束神聖自由沒有關係嗎"},{"start":5888.2,"end":5890.2,"text":"一個人在旁邊看"},{"start":5890.2,"end":5892.2,"text":"看有沒有排尿"},{"start":5892.2,"end":5894.2,"text":"那是怕他避免他掉包"},{"start":5894.2,"end":5896.2,"text":"那個本來就是辦法裡面有規定"},{"start":5896.2,"end":5897.2,"text":"所以你會覺得說"},{"start":5897.2,"end":5899.2,"text":"這樣子對於侵害人格權"},{"start":5899.2,"end":5902.2,"text":"侵害人身自由的強度反而比較低"},{"start":5902.2,"end":5903.2,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":5903.2,"end":5904.2,"text":"這個去剪一個頭髮"},{"start":5904.2,"end":5906.2,"text":"他的強度還比較高"},{"start":5906.2,"end":5907.2,"text":"所以我就講"},{"start":5907.2,"end":5909.2,"text":"這就是我覺得很大的觀念上的不同"},{"start":5909.2,"end":5912.2,"text":"對於很多的公務員來講"},{"start":5912.2,"end":5915.2,"text":"我覺得也許不見得能夠接受像您這樣的說法"},{"start":5915.2,"end":5917.2,"text":"更何況我們這樣講"},{"start":5917.2,"end":5919.2,"text":"就是你刑事訴訟法"},{"start":5919.2,"end":5920.2,"text":"它規定的"},{"start":5920.2,"end":5922.2,"text":"有很多總統還尿疫"},{"start":5922.2,"end":5923.2,"text":"也有"},{"start":5923.2,"end":5925.2,"text":"它也可以作為採證的方式"},{"start":5925.2,"end":5926.2,"text":"然後唾液"},{"start":5926.2,"end":5927.2,"text":"然後血液"},{"start":5927.2,"end":5928.2,"text":"驗血等等"},{"start":5928.2,"end":5930.2,"text":"這是規定在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":5930.2,"end":5932.2,"text":"但是我們現在行政法"},{"start":5932.2,"end":5934.2,"text":"這個所謂毒品危害防治條例裡面"},{"start":5934.2,"end":5936.2,"text":"我們多增加一個法律"},{"start":5936.2,"end":5938.2,"text":"也就是也符合法律保留原則"},{"start":5938.2,"end":5940.2,"text":"而且我們衡量過"},{"start":5940.2,"end":5942.2,"text":"防治毒品的危害"},{"start":5942.2,"end":5944.2,"text":"還有人權的"},{"start":5944.2,"end":5946.2,"text":"權益的保障"},{"start":5946.2,"end":5948.2,"text":"我們都有兼顧到"},{"start":5948.2,"end":5949.2,"text":"對"},{"start":5949.2,"end":5951.2,"text":"那因此就是剛剛次長一直不斷的講"},{"start":5951.2,"end":5952.2,"text":"而且我一直要講"},{"start":5952.2,"end":5954.2,"text":"這是一個行政管理的手段"},{"start":5954.2,"end":5956.2,"text":"它不是一個犯罪偵查"},{"start":5956.2,"end":5958.2,"text":"它跟警察去臨檢"},{"start":5958.2,"end":5959.2,"text":"這是兩回事"},{"start":5959.2,"end":5961.2,"text":"既然是行政管理的手段"},{"start":5961.2,"end":5963.2,"text":"它就會常常會啟動"},{"start":5963.2,"end":5964.2,"text":"常常會啟動"},{"start":5964.2,"end":5966.2,"text":"那對於當事人來講"},{"start":5966.2,"end":5967.2,"text":"為什麼不能夠"},{"start":5967.2,"end":5969.2,"text":"讓當事人可以有個選擇"},{"start":5969.2,"end":5971.2,"text":"我要接受什麼樣的檢驗"},{"start":5971.2,"end":5972.2,"text":"我如果說認為說"},{"start":5972.2,"end":5974.2,"text":"其實我坦蕩蕩"},{"start":5974.2,"end":5975.2,"text":"我就沒有吸毒品"},{"start":5975.2,"end":5976.2,"text":"你就把我抓"},{"start":5976.2,"end":5978.2,"text":"就是拔掉幾根頭髮去做檢驗"},{"start":5978.2,"end":5979.2,"text":"可以證明說"},{"start":5979.2,"end":5981.2,"text":"我長期間我都沒有吸毒"},{"start":5981.2,"end":5983.2,"text":"這不是更有效果"},{"start":5983.2,"end":5985.2,"text":"那反而是說是"},{"start":5985.2,"end":5988.2,"text":"你們對於這個短短的時間的"},{"start":5988.2,"end":5989.2,"text":"這個檢測方式"},{"start":5989.2,"end":5991.2,"text":"它很容易毒品就排掉了"},{"start":5991.2,"end":5993.2,"text":"你們比較喜歡用這個方式"},{"start":5993.2,"end":5996.2,"text":"但是對於我剛剛講那個規避的問題"},{"start":5996.2,"end":5997.2,"text":"一個聰明"},{"start":5997.2,"end":5999.2,"text":"他真的吸食毒品的公務員"},{"start":5999.2,"end":6002.2,"text":"他很容易透過幾天的尿液排毒"},{"start":6002.2,"end":6003.2,"text":"出去之後"},{"start":6003.2,"end":6007.2,"text":"他就前幾天可能就不碰毒"},{"start":6007.2,"end":6009.2,"text":"但是之後他可能又會碰毒"},{"start":6009.2,"end":6011.2,"text":"但是你們驗不到"},{"start":6011.2,"end":6012.2,"text":"對於學生來講"},{"start":6012.2,"end":6014.2,"text":"也是這樣的一個問題"},{"start":6014.2,"end":6016.2,"text":"所以這就是我在說"},{"start":6016.2,"end":6019.2,"text":"多一個方法"},{"start":6019.2,"end":6023.2,"text":"而且我還同意就是你們未來"},{"start":6023.2,"end":6025.2,"text":"可以由行政院自己去訂定"},{"start":6025.2,"end":6028.2,"text":"驗尿液跟驗唾液的實施辦法"},{"start":6028.2,"end":6032.2,"text":"你們什麼時候決定要驗唾液驗毛髮"},{"start":6032.2,"end":6035.2,"text":"這個都是你們自己可以去訂定的"},{"start":6035.2,"end":6037.2,"text":"對 這一上我在強調我的意見"},{"start":6037.2,"end":6038.2,"text":"這有一個問題"},{"start":6038.2,"end":6040.2,"text":"我來釐清一下"},{"start":6040.2,"end":6042.2,"text":"就是說在座所有的委員"},{"start":6042.2,"end":6044.2,"text":"跟所有的官員"},{"start":6044.2,"end":6046.2,"text":"沒有任何跡象的話"},{"start":6046.2,"end":6049.2,"text":"沒有人可以來跟你講說"},{"start":6049.2,"end":6051.2,"text":"來 你的一支頭髮"},{"start":6051.2,"end":6054.2,"text":"你的唾液我要來印看看"},{"start":6054.2,"end":6055.2,"text":"你到底有沒有吸毒"},{"start":6055.2,"end":6057.2,"text":"都不行 這個都不行"},{"start":6057.2,"end":6060.2,"text":"那你現在就是說"},{"start":6060.2,"end":6063.2,"text":"我看幾個部門的監督機關裡面"},{"start":6063.2,"end":6068.2,"text":"行政的對他的監督的人員"},{"start":6068.2,"end":6070.2,"text":"不管你是內政部"},{"start":6070.2,"end":6073.2,"text":"還是交通部 還是國防部"},{"start":6073.2,"end":6077.2,"text":"像這個 他覺得我受監督的對象"},{"start":6077.2,"end":6079.2,"text":"他可能會有這樣的一個"},{"start":6079.2,"end":6083.2,"text":"比較有去試用毒品嗎"},{"start":6083.2,"end":6086.2,"text":"所以他覺得要來做減嚴"},{"start":6086.2,"end":6088.2,"text":"那種即時性的"},{"start":6088.2,"end":6092.2,"text":"各位去看內政部 這個副表裡面"},{"start":6092.2,"end":6094.2,"text":"內政部也好 國防部也好"},{"start":6094.2,"end":6097.2,"text":"或者教育部也好 法務部也好"},{"start":6097.2,"end":6099.2,"text":"就是說你如果下政部"},{"start":6099.2,"end":6102.2,"text":"就是他就針對生活情報不正當"},{"start":6102.2,"end":6105.2,"text":"有試用毒品嫌疑的這些警察人員"},{"start":6105.2,"end":6108.2,"text":"是說跟這個警察"},{"start":6108.2,"end":6111.2,"text":"就跟毒販頻繁去做交往"},{"start":6111.2,"end":6113.2,"text":"或是說你毒品檢驗"},{"start":6113.2,"end":6117.2,"text":"跟政務室保管的警察人員"},{"start":6117.2,"end":6119.2,"text":"或是說替代他的"},{"start":6119.2,"end":6121.2,"text":"他就開始跟你列舉這些"},{"start":6121.2,"end":6123.2,"text":"他就覺得認為 事實中認為"},{"start":6123.2,"end":6126.2,"text":"可能用毒品"},{"start":6126.2,"end":6129.2,"text":"針對這些 他內政部的副表"},{"start":6129.2,"end":6131.2,"text":"就是說這些人的一個"},{"start":6131.2,"end":6134.2,"text":"尿疫的一個採驗的一個辦法"},{"start":6134.2,"end":6137.2,"text":"說我受我監督的人"},{"start":6137.2,"end":6139.2,"text":"我要用這樣的一個方式"},{"start":6139.2,"end":6141.2,"text":"那你至於說"},{"start":6141.2,"end":6143.2,"text":"我要再用一句毛髮的方式"},{"start":6143.2,"end":6145.2,"text":"那個是涉及到 我也認為"},{"start":6145.2,"end":6147.2,"text":"那個是屬於刑事訴訟法裡面的"},{"start":6147.2,"end":6149.2,"text":"犯罪偵查"},{"start":6149.2,"end":6151.2,"text":"去刑事訴訟的部分"},{"start":6151.2,"end":6153.2,"text":"那你如果說沒有"},{"start":6153.2,"end":6155.2,"text":"刑事訴訟在犯罪偵查"},{"start":6155.2,"end":6157.2,"text":"你說檢察官或警察"},{"start":6157.2,"end":6159.2,"text":"他也不能去馬路邊抓一個人"},{"start":6159.2,"end":6160.2,"text":"就給他抓去 跟他說"},{"start":6160.2,"end":6163.2,"text":"我要給你驗尿 驗唾液"},{"start":6163.2,"end":6165.2,"text":"甚至要來採毛髮"},{"start":6165.2,"end":6166.2,"text":"也不行"},{"start":6166.2,"end":6168.2,"text":"所以我們在這個地方33條"},{"start":6168.2,"end":6170.2,"text":"請各位再看一下"},{"start":6170.2,"end":6175.2,"text":"33條 這個是在針對主管機關"},{"start":6175.2,"end":6178.2,"text":"對於他所屬跟監督的特定人員"},{"start":6178.2,"end":6184.2,"text":"就是說內政部 國防部 教育部"},{"start":6184.2,"end":6186.2,"text":"還有法務部"},{"start":6186.2,"end":6188.2,"text":"是在講這些"},{"start":6188.2,"end":6190.2,"text":"還有經濟部 交通部"},{"start":6190.2,"end":6191.2,"text":"是在講這些的人"},{"start":6191.2,"end":6194.2,"text":"不是對一般的一個民眾"},{"start":6194.2,"end":6196.2,"text":"市長我這樣說對了"},{"start":6196.2,"end":6198.2,"text":"就針對這一些"},{"start":6198.2,"end":6200.2,"text":"針對這一些就是說"},{"start":6200.2,"end":6202.2,"text":"我要迅速來知道"},{"start":6202.2,"end":6204.2,"text":"他有犯罪沒犯罪"},{"start":6204.2,"end":6205.2,"text":"那就是另外一回事"},{"start":6205.2,"end":6207.2,"text":"他如果有犯罪"},{"start":6207.2,"end":6209.2,"text":"當然 譬如說"},{"start":6209.2,"end":6210.2,"text":"有犯罪嫌疑"},{"start":6210.2,"end":6211.2,"text":"發現有毒品"},{"start":6211.2,"end":6212.2,"text":"或者什麼"},{"start":6212.2,"end":6215.2,"text":"就開始警察機關介入"},{"start":6215.2,"end":6216.2,"text":"或者報警檢察官"},{"start":6216.2,"end":6220.2,"text":"就開始去啟動刑事上偵查"},{"start":6220.2,"end":6222.2,"text":"那個當然會有毛髮的問題"},{"start":6222.2,"end":6224.2,"text":"那就可以了"},{"start":6224.2,"end":6226.2,"text":"但是現在這個出院的部分"},{"start":6226.2,"end":6229.2,"text":"是不是要翁委員的部分"},{"start":6229.2,"end":6231.2,"text":"你把毛髮也放進去"},{"start":6231.2,"end":6233.2,"text":"確實要再考量一下"},{"start":6233.2,"end":6236.2,"text":"翁委員你用心良苦我都知道"},{"start":6236.2,"end":6239.2,"text":"但是我去我建議你"},{"start":6239.2,"end":6242.2,"text":"我知道你對這個部分有準備"},{"start":6242.2,"end":6244.2,"text":"但問題就是說"},{"start":6244.2,"end":6246.2,"text":"大家會有不一樣的一個看法"},{"start":6246.2,"end":6248.2,"text":"就是學者專家"},{"start":6248.2,"end":6250.2,"text":"甚至於連法務部"},{"start":6250.2,"end":6251.2,"text":"他都認為"},{"start":6251.2,"end":6254.2,"text":"這個都已經違反比例原則了"},{"start":6254.2,"end":6257.2,"text":"有一點這個武器給得過多"},{"start":6257.2,"end":6259.2,"text":"再來換誰"},{"start":6259.2,"end":6261.2,"text":"先由范雲委員講一下"},{"start":6261.2,"end":6263.2,"text":"三條而已我陪你們"},{"start":6263.2,"end":6265.2,"text":"我想這個毒品"},{"start":6265.2,"end":6267.2,"text":"真的是非常重要"},{"start":6267.2,"end":6268.2,"text":"也是非常嚴重的議題"},{"start":6268.2,"end":6271.2,"text":"那其實他現在是個全球的議題"},{"start":6271.2,"end":6274.2,"text":"因為根據聯合國的世界毒品報告"},{"start":6274.2,"end":6278.2,"text":"全球15歲到64歲人口"},{"start":6278.2,"end":6282.2,"text":"5.6%都曾經使用過毒品"},{"start":6282.2,"end":6284.2,"text":"那他相關的報告也講"},{"start":6284.2,"end":6286.2,"text":"其實這個新型的合成毒品"},{"start":6286.2,"end":6288.2,"text":"他不斷的在變化"},{"start":6288.2,"end":6290.2,"text":"研發新的內容"},{"start":6290.2,"end":6293.2,"text":"那一直在躲避法規跟逃避偵測"},{"start":6293.2,"end":6296.2,"text":"所以到底是如何能夠檢測出"},{"start":6296.2,"end":6297.2,"text":"其實真的是一個"},{"start":6297.2,"end":6299.2,"text":"高難度也很重要的事"},{"start":6299.2,"end":6301.2,"text":"而我之前質詢的時候"},{"start":6301.2,"end":6303.2,"text":"一直強調我認為"},{"start":6303.2,"end":6305.2,"text":"這是檢測非常的重要"},{"start":6305.2,"end":6307.2,"text":"但是源頭管制"},{"start":6307.2,"end":6309.2,"text":"那也是非常根本的事情"},{"start":6309.2,"end":6312.2,"text":"希望法務部能夠重視這個部分"},{"start":6312.2,"end":6314.2,"text":"但我們今天討論的是這個"},{"start":6314.2,"end":6318.2,"text":"主管機關對於所屬或監督之特定人員"},{"start":6318.2,"end":6322.2,"text":"於必要的時候能夠採驗尿液再加上什麼"},{"start":6322.2,"end":6326.2,"text":"那因為它性質上是個行政調查"},{"start":6326.2,"end":6328.2,"text":"所以我認為快速可以驗出"},{"start":6328.2,"end":6330.2,"text":"其實是最重要的"},{"start":6330.2,"end":6332.2,"text":"那唾液的這個檢測"},{"start":6332.2,"end":6334.2,"text":"那其實目前的相關的研究"},{"start":6334.2,"end":6335.2,"text":"它是可以的"},{"start":6335.2,"end":6337.2,"text":"因為它有一個好處就是非侵入性"},{"start":6337.2,"end":6339.2,"text":"採樣又很快"},{"start":6339.2,"end":6341.2,"text":"那考慮喪屍煙淡"},{"start":6341.2,"end":6344.2,"text":"它的那個半衰期非常的短"},{"start":6344.2,"end":6346.2,"text":"就是那個所謂依托彌質的半衰期很短"},{"start":6346.2,"end":6348.2,"text":"那如果它拖過那個採驗期"},{"start":6348.2,"end":6350.2,"text":"就可能逃過"},{"start":6350.2,"end":6352.2,"text":"所以我覺得那個檢驗的速度快"},{"start":6352.2,"end":6354.2,"text":"然後非侵入性"},{"start":6354.2,"end":6357.2,"text":"那現場就能夠有這樣子一個"},{"start":6357.2,"end":6359.2,"text":"行政上的一個做法"},{"start":6359.2,"end":6360.2,"text":"我覺得是最重要的"},{"start":6360.2,"end":6361.2,"text":"我這樣講就是"},{"start":6361.2,"end":6364.2,"text":"那我支持這個行政院的版本"},{"start":6364.2,"end":6366.2,"text":"那我自己的版本也是這樣訂"},{"start":6366.2,"end":6368.2,"text":"跟大家說明謝謝"},{"start":6372.2,"end":6373.2,"text":"趙志偉"},{"start":6373.2,"end":6376.2,"text":"主席你今天就一直好像"},{"start":6376.2,"end":6378.2,"text":"覺得我不要講話了"},{"start":6378.2,"end":6379.2,"text":"你知道我摔了大交涉"},{"start":6379.2,"end":6382.2,"text":"不過我頭腦還可以表達"},{"start":6382.2,"end":6383.2,"text":"第一個我們就回到初衷"},{"start":6383.2,"end":6385.2,"text":"我覺得剛剛范永偉一開始講的"},{"start":6385.2,"end":6386.2,"text":"因為他錯過了廣泛討論"},{"start":6386.2,"end":6389.2,"text":"我們其實已經進入那個技術面的部分"},{"start":6389.2,"end":6392.2,"text":"第一個你看這個行政院自己提案的"},{"start":6392.2,"end":6394.2,"text":"它的立法說明"},{"start":6394.2,"end":6397.2,"text":"你看它現在說特定人員要列管"},{"start":6397.2,"end":6398.2,"text":"列管"},{"start":6398.2,"end":6400.2,"text":"就是你要把你這些特定的人員"},{"start":6400.2,"end":6401.2,"text":"你要做列管"},{"start":6401.2,"end":6403.2,"text":"也許這個要什麼樣管什麼"},{"start":6403.2,"end":6405.2,"text":"那你這個列管本身"},{"start":6405.2,"end":6407.2,"text":"你讀起來這個文字就不是即時"},{"start":6407.2,"end":6409.2,"text":"就不是立刻現在"},{"start":6409.2,"end":6411.2,"text":"因為你要把你這個特定的人員做列管"},{"start":6411.2,"end":6413.2,"text":"我先舉例醫院"},{"start":6413.2,"end":6416.2,"text":"醫院為什麼每個人進去到醫院上班"},{"start":6416.2,"end":6417.2,"text":"包括行政人員"},{"start":6417.2,"end":6419.2,"text":"我們因為怕感染病人"},{"start":6419.2,"end":6420.2,"text":"因為我們接觸病人等等"},{"start":6420.2,"end":6422.2,"text":"譬如說早期現在吸肝被拿掉"},{"start":6422.2,"end":6423.2,"text":"清除很棒"},{"start":6423.2,"end":6425.2,"text":"那個B肝的那種罪一定要測"},{"start":6425.2,"end":6427.2,"text":"譬如說TB肺結合一定要測"},{"start":6427.2,"end":6429.2,"text":"就是因為你的工作上"},{"st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science的我比較強"},{"start":6751.2,"end":6752.2,"text":"我的意思就是說"},{"start":6752.2,"end":6754.2,"text":"黃某信是次長"},{"start":6754.2,"end":6758.2,"text":"你願意讓他一個全縣行政部門不是犯罪"},{"start":6758.2,"end":6761.2,"text":"讓法務部可以決定拿你一根頭髮去嗎"},{"start":6761.2,"end":6762.2,"text":"我可以"},{"start":6762.2,"end":6763.2,"text":"那是你可以的"},{"start":6763.2,"end":6765.2,"text":"我們不能這樣決定"},{"start":6765.2,"end":6767.2,"text":"那你真的會造成偽陽性的問題"},{"start":6767.2,"end":6768.2,"text":"你們兩個是無辜的"},{"start":6768.2,"end":6770.2,"text":"沒有啦所以這是周美中次長"},{"start":6770.2,"end":6771.2,"text":"所以我的意思"},{"start":6771.2,"end":6773.2,"text":"你跟他說的那樣子的前提不對"},{"start":6773.2,"end":6775.2,"text":"人家在吸毒我們過去"},{"start":6775.2,"end":6778.2,"text":"然後吸那個空氣我頭髮就會有毒嗎"},{"start":6778.2,"end":6779.2,"text":"不會啦"},{"start":6779.2,"end":6780.2,"text":"不是啦我在局"},{"start":6780.2,"end":6781.2,"text":"No no no no"},{"start":6781.2,"end":6782.2,"text":"不要我跟你講"},{"start":6782.2,"end":6783.2,"text":"我在講的是說"},{"start":6783.2,"end":6786.2,"text":"會受到環境污染的問題"},{"start":6786.2,"end":6788.2,"text":"你如果去多看一點"},{"start":6788.2,"end":6791.2,"text":"這一次法務部跟學者專家"},{"start":6791.2,"end":6793.2,"text":"都提出來這些疑慮"},{"start":6793.2,"end":6795.2,"text":"連實驗室都會有問題"},{"start":6795.2,"end":6796.2,"text":"是是沒有"},{"start":6796.2,"end":6797.2,"text":"重點在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":6797.2,"end":6801.2,"text":"重點是我們要不要賦予行政部門"},{"start":6801.2,"end":6805.2,"text":"跟司法部門同樣的全縣的問題"},{"start":6805.2,"end":6807.2,"text":"現在"},{"start":6807.2,"end":6808.2,"text":"我要講"},{"start":6808.2,"end":6809.2,"text":"你聽我意思嗎"},{"start":6809.2,"end":6810.2,"text":"我知道"},{"start":6810.2,"end":6811.2,"text":"我們現在不是在刑事偵查"},{"start":6811.2,"end":6812.2,"text":"我現在要講的是"},{"start":6812.2,"end":6816.2,"text":"只要是強制檢驗的這個手段"},{"start":6816.2,"end":6819.2,"text":"它本身就是會有侵害人權的問題"},{"start":6819.2,"end":6820.2,"text":"當然"},{"start":6820.2,"end":6822.2,"text":"這個絕對不是說讓大家自主"},{"start":6822.2,"end":6824.2,"text":"你要去驗尿去接受托制"},{"start":6824.2,"end":6826.2,"text":"它就是個強制檢驗"},{"start":6826.2,"end":6827.2,"text":"是啦"},{"start":6827.2,"end":6829.2,"text":"所以一定都會侵害到人權"},{"start":6829.2,"end":6832.2,"text":"但是問題是輕度干擾"},{"start":6832.2,"end":6835.2,"text":"中度干擾或者重度干擾"},{"start":6835.2,"end":6836.2,"text":"它本來就是會有"},{"start":6836.2,"end":6839.2,"text":"我們常常在講的比例原則的問題"},{"start":6839.2,"end":6840.2,"text":"看你要採取哪一項"},{"start":6840.2,"end":6842.2,"text":"這就是我們現在對於比例原則的看法不同"},{"start":6842.2,"end":6845.2,"text":"我剛剛還看了就是經濟部"},{"start":6845.2,"end":6847.2,"text":"他們自己頒訂的特定人員"},{"start":6847.2,"end":6849.2,"text":"尿液採驗作業要點"},{"start":6849.2,"end":6852.2,"text":"大家仔細去看看那個作業要點"},{"start":6852.2,"end":6853.2,"text":"如果說當第一個"},{"start":6853.2,"end":6855.2,"text":"他是採不定期的一個抽檢"},{"start":6855.2,"end":6857.2,"text":"他有不定期抽檢方式"},{"start":6857.2,"end":6859.2,"text":"或者說他有定期的話兩年"},{"start":6859.2,"end":6862.2,"text":"那麼如果說是今天當事人"},{"start":6862.2,"end":6866.2,"text":"他拒絕去做驗尿的時候"},{"start":6866.2,"end":6867.2,"text":"裡面還有講"},{"start":6867.2,"end":6870.2,"text":"這時候可以拘束當事人的這個身體自由"},{"start":6870.2,"end":6872.2,"text":"同時強制驗尿的時候"},{"start":6872.2,"end":6875.2,"text":"還說要特別注意受檢人的名譽及身體"},{"start":6875.2,"end":6877.2,"text":"所以他其實侵害名譽"},{"start":6877.2,"end":6881.2,"text":"侵害名譽跟身體的法醫程度是更高"},{"start":6881.2,"end":6883.2,"text":"那我現在要講就是說"},{"start":6883.2,"end":6885.2,"text":"如果大家一直在講"},{"start":6885.2,"end":6886.2,"text":"今天是檢驗毛髮"},{"start":6886.2,"end":6888.2,"text":"就會侵害人格權"},{"start":6888.2,"end":6890.2,"text":"侵害人的行動自由"},{"start":6890.2,"end":6893.2,"text":"那麼你做唾液的篩檢"},{"start":6893.2,"end":6897.2,"text":"跟尿液的篩檢何嘗不是"},{"start":6897.2,"end":6900.2,"text":"更何況今天他是一個行政管理的手段"},{"start":6900.2,"end":6902.2,"text":"我們已經也授權未來"},{"start":6902.2,"end":6903.2,"text":"就是相關的機關"},{"start":6903.2,"end":6905.2,"text":"他可以斟酌狀況"},{"start":6905.2,"end":6907.2,"text":"可以自己去定義相關的辦法"},{"start":6908.2,"end":6912.2,"text":"那現在法務部一再不斷的去阻擋"},{"start":6912.2,"end":6915.2,"text":"類似這個毛髮可以作為篩檢"},{"start":6915.2,"end":6918.2,"text":"我真的覺得說你們的想法非常的奇怪"},{"start":6918.2,"end":6920.2,"text":"這樣的話你們認為說"},{"start":6920.2,"end":6923.2,"text":"難道不會擔心會有更多的這個聰明"},{"start":6923.2,"end":6924.2,"text":"或者狡猾的公務員"},{"start":6924.2,"end":6928.2,"text":"他可能可以透過這個規避"},{"start":6928.2,"end":6931.2,"text":"尿液篩檢跟唾液篩檢這個方式"},{"start":6931.2,"end":6933.2,"text":"然後他反而他就有吸毒"},{"start":6933.2,"end":6935.2,"text":"我現在講的像是經濟部"},{"start":6935.2,"end":6936.2,"text":"他是什麼樣的員工"},{"start":6936.2,"end":6939.2,"text":"他特定人員他必須要接受篩檢"},{"start":6939.2,"end":6941.2,"text":"像是台電公司的發電書店"},{"start":6941.2,"end":6944.2,"text":"這個配電等等這些裝修的員工"},{"start":6944.2,"end":6946.2,"text":"中油公司各種運輸"},{"start":6946.2,"end":6948.2,"text":"供水供電的員工"},{"start":6948.2,"end":6951.2,"text":"還有各個機關這個駕駛人員等等"},{"start":6951.2,"end":6954.2,"text":"所以這些駕駛人員還有這些員工"},{"start":6954.2,"end":6956.2,"text":"基本上如果說你今天能夠用一個"},{"start":6956.2,"end":6958.2,"text":"其他的方式多一個選項"},{"start":6958.2,"end":6960.2,"text":"讓他們可以去接受篩檢"},{"start":6960.2,"end":6962.2,"text":"而且也可以確保他們過去"},{"start":6962.2,"end":6964.2,"text":"確實可能在半年一年裡面"},{"start":6964.2,"end":6967.2,"text":"從來沒有吸毒的這樣的情況"},{"start":6967.2,"end":6968.2,"text":"這不是更好嗎"},{"start":6968.2,"end":6973.2,"text":"未來他就不見得一定要去接受抽檢"},{"start":6974.2,"end":6977.2,"text":"所以法務部今天這些想法"},{"start":6977.2,"end":6978.2,"text":"我其實不太能接受"},{"start":6978.2,"end":6981.2,"text":"我們是不是先釐清一下"},{"start":6981.2,"end":6985.2,"text":"就是你要發動強制處分"},{"start":6985.2,"end":6987.2,"text":"除了司法機關"},{"start":6987.2,"end":6990.2,"text":"行政部門怎麼會可以有強制處分"},{"start":6990.2,"end":6993.2,"text":"那你要有任何強制處分"},{"start":6993.2,"end":6994.2,"text":"涉及到強制處分的"},{"start":6994.2,"end":6996.2,"text":"這當然要法律保留"},{"start":6996.2,"end":6999.2,"text":"你要對人身的侵犯的話"},{"start":6999.2,"end":7002.2,"text":"有輕度、有重度、有重度"},{"start":7002.2,"end":7006.2,"text":"33條以小地不採"},{"start":7006.2,"end":7008.2,"text":"那剛好是有立法的授權"},{"start":7008.2,"end":7010.2,"text":"否則針對行政部門"},{"start":7010.2,"end":7014.2,"text":"行政部門要去干擾到一般民眾"},{"start":7014.2,"end":7018.2,"text":"除非你在行政機關你採以前那種特別權力關係"},{"start":7018.2,"end":7020.2,"text":"否則你說我做部長"},{"start":7020.2,"end":7022.2,"text":"我做你們的長官"},{"start":7022.2,"end":7025.2,"text":"我就有辦法要求我底下的員工"},{"start":7025.2,"end":7026.2,"text":"我要跟你做什麼做什麼"},{"start":7026.2,"end":7027.2,"text":"門都沒有"},{"start":7027.2,"end":7029.2,"text":"我如果是員工的話"},{"start":7029.2,"end":7030.2,"text":"我會跟你講說我根本就沒犯罪"},{"start":7030.2,"end":7033.2,"text":"就是因為我們有法律授權"},{"start":7033.2,"end":7035.2,"text":"現在是因為沒有法律授權"},{"start":7035.2,"end":7037.2,"text":"所以不可以做毛髮採驗"},{"start":7037.2,"end":7038.2,"text":"所以我的意思是"},{"start":7038.2,"end":7039.2,"text":"同委員來了"},{"start":7039.2,"end":7040.2,"text":"問題來了"},{"start":7040.2,"end":7044.2,"text":"就是說本來33條連行政部門都不行的"},{"start":7044.2,"end":7046.2,"text":"那已經授權到你可以用"},{"start":7046.2,"end":7050.2,"text":"我們現在原條文的部分是妙裔"},{"start":7050.2,"end":7056.2,"text":"那我們現在要再把它多一個武器給行政部門"},{"start":7056.2,"end":7058.2,"text":"是多再給它一個叫做"},{"start":7062.2,"end":7063.2,"text":"拖曳"},{"start":7063.2,"end":7064.2,"text":"妙裔要多一個拖曳"},{"start":7064.2,"end":7066.2,"text":"你的意思是說不要緊"},{"start":7066.2,"end":7068.2,"text":"行政部門再多一個好衣服"},{"start":7068.2,"end":7070.2,"text":"毛髮"},{"start":7070.2,"end":7074.2,"text":"理論上33條我認為都不應該有的"},{"start":7074.2,"end":7075.2,"text":"都不應該有的"},{"start":7075.2,"end":7077.2,"text":"因為你不是司法部門"},{"start":7077.2,"end":7079.2,"text":"你現在已經給它一個了"},{"start":7079.2,"end":7082.2,"text":"我們法務部都認為說"},{"start":7082.2,"end":7084.2,"text":"折衷折衷你再給我一個就好了"},{"start":7084.2,"end":7085.2,"text":"我就很開心了"},{"start":7085.2,"end":7087.2,"text":"你不是在這裡開綠燈"},{"start":7087.2,"end":7088.2,"text":"全部給法務部"},{"start":7088.2,"end":7090.2,"text":"沒有我們沒有開綠燈"},{"start":7090.2,"end":7091.2,"text":"我也沒有說要給你"},{"start":7091.2,"end":7094.2,"text":"我只是說多增加一個毛髮"},{"start":7094.2,"end":7096.2,"text":"那基本上因為我就說"},{"start":7096.2,"end":7099.2,"text":"因為現在如果說台灣不是毒價很嚴重"},{"start":7099.2,"end":7101.2,"text":"不是毒品氾濫"},{"start":7101.2,"end":7104.2,"text":"基本上我非常同意剛剛周偉的看法"},{"start":7104.2,"end":7106.2,"text":"33條根本就應該刪掉"},{"start":7106.2,"end":7108.2,"text":"不應該給行政機關這麼大的權利"},{"start":7108.2,"end":7112.2,"text":"可是就是因為我們現在毒品氾濫的問題很嚴重"},{"start":7112.2,"end":7115.2,"text":"而且還不僅僅是造成犯罪"},{"start":7115.2,"end":7117.2,"text":"更重要的是說有很多執行"},{"start":7117.2,"end":7122.2,"text":"跟我們公眾安全有關的業務的這些人員"},{"start":7122.2,"end":7126.2,"text":"我們當然要更加強相關的管理"},{"start":7126.2,"end":7130.2,"text":"所以我完全是基於一個這個好善意"},{"start":7130.2,"end":7133.2,"text":"來 到波特來 教育部有來了嗎"},{"start":7133.2,"end":7136.2,"text":"來聽聽看教育部的看法好不好"},{"start":7139.2,"end":7141.2,"text":"是 聽聽看你們的看法"},{"start":7141.2,"end":7143.2,"text":"是針對唾液快篩那一個部分"},{"start":7143.2,"end":7145.2,"text":"他們說要多毛髮 你們認為呢"},{"start":7145.2,"end":7150.2,"text":"唾液當然現在就認為說多給你們一個武器"},{"start":7150.2,"end":7153.2,"text":"覺得說原來本來只要鳥藝"},{"start":7153.2,"end":7156.2,"text":"我們再多一個唾液可能會比較快"},{"start":7156.2,"end":7159.2,"text":"如果再多一個給行政部門給教育部"},{"start":7159.2,"end":7162.2,"text":"覺得說給你們學校裡面的人"},{"start":7162.2,"end":7164.2,"text":"可以針對毛髮你們的看法呢"},{"start":7164.2,"end":7167.2,"text":"因為毛髮這一塊我們之前沒有討論過"},{"start":7167.2,"end":7169.2,"text":"所以針對毛髮這一塊"},{"start":7169.2,"end":7171.2,"text":"他到底要怎麼樣去做一個篩檢"},{"start":7171.2,"end":7175.2,"text":"然後他一些相關的檢驗的工具"},{"start":7175.2,"end":7177.2,"text":"還有需要注意的事項部分"},{"start":7177.2,"end":7181.2,"text":"這個部分我們可能要再跟相關的專業單位"},{"start":7181.2,"end":7183.2,"text":"再做一個討論才能知道"},{"start":7183.2,"end":7185.2,"text":"他在實務上的可行性是如何"},{"start":7185.2,"end":7187.2,"text":"但是因為我們知道像唾液塊"},{"start":7187.2,"end":7189.2,"text":"唾液塊他的準確度是很高"},{"start":7189.2,"end":7190.2,"text":"所以唾液塊在這個部分"},{"start":7190.2,"end":7194.2,"text":"我們是比較希望在校園可以先來做實施這樣子"},{"start":7194.2,"end":7195.2,"text":"OK"},{"start":7195.2,"end":7196.2,"text":"我們常常"},{"start":7196.2,"end":7199.2,"text":"司法常常是最嚴謹的喔"},{"start":7199.2,"end":7201.2,"text":"我看司法機關經過偵查"},{"start":7201.2,"end":7204.2,"text":"經過一審審辦二審三審出來"},{"start":7204.2,"end":7206.2,"text":"然後大家在那裡大喊司法不公"},{"start":7206.2,"end":7210.2,"text":"你現在行政部門多給他這麼多的一個武器"},{"start":7210.2,"end":7212.2,"text":"到時候你沒完沒了我跟你講"},{"start":7212.2,"end":7214.2,"text":"我就是站在我沒有特別的意見"},{"start":7214.2,"end":7218.2,"text":"我只是說現在既然是折衷到多給一個"},{"start":7218.2,"end":7220.2,"text":"多給了一個唾液"},{"start":7220.2,"end":7224.2,"text":"我們又要再開放一項給行政部門"},{"start":7224.2,"end":7226.2,"text":"再給他毛髮"},{"start":7226.2,"end":7227.2,"text":"是"},{"start":7227.2,"end":7232.2,"text":"因為委員我們這不是在包庇犯罪"},{"start":7232.2,"end":7234.2,"text":"獨家他也是犯罪"},{"start":7234.2,"end":7237.2,"text":"那如果你啟動刑事偵查的話"},{"start":7237.2,"end":7238.2,"text":"這一些本來就可以"},{"start":7238.2,"end":7242.2,"text":"那我們現在講的是出院給他更快"},{"start":7242.2,"end":7244.2,"text":"更快你要不要到毛髮"},{"start":7244.2,"end":7247.2,"text":"除非你認為說法務部你黑白丁"},{"start":7247.2,"end":7250.2,"text":"毛髮就比你的唾液的侵害性更加低"},{"start":7250.2,"end":7251.2,"text":"更加快"},{"start":7251.2,"end":7252.2,"text":"更加及時"},{"start":7252.2,"end":7253.2,"text":"你為什麼不採毛髮"},{"start":7253.2,"end":7254.2,"text":"為什麼去採唾液"},{"start":7254.2,"end":7256.2,"text":"那這樣來講又通喔"},{"start":7256.2,"end":7258.2,"text":"可是你如果說因為獨家"},{"start":7258.2,"end":7261.2,"text":"讓他知道這個人到底有沒有犯法"},{"start":7261.2,"end":7263.2,"text":"那個部分屬於犯罪刑事偵查"},{"start":7263.2,"end":7266.2,"text":"他在他啟動出院完以後"},{"start":7266.2,"end":7268.2,"text":"到時候也要再復原一次"},{"start":7268.2,"end":7271.2,"text":"有更嚴格的一個程序"},{"start":7271.2,"end":7273.2,"text":"我反而會覺得"},{"start":7273.2,"end":7275.2,"text":"跟打擊犯罪"},{"start":7275.2,"end":7277.2,"text":"是這個地方無關的"},{"start":7277.2,"end":7280.2,"text":"這部分是行政部門"},{"start":7280.2,"end":7283.2,"text":"稍微我再補充一個"},{"start":7283.2,"end":7285.2,"text":"剛剛因為教育部的這個同仁"},{"start":7285.2,"end":7287.2,"text":"他沒有講到就是說"},{"start":7287.2,"end":7289.2,"text":"到底什麼樣的人員會被"},{"start":7289.2,"end":7291.2,"text":"會被做尿液檢查"},{"start":7291.2,"end":7294.2,"text":"就是因為這個毒品危害法律條例裡面"},{"start":7294.2,"end":7298.2,"text":"會必須要強制要去做尿液檢查的"},{"start":7298.2,"end":7300.2,"text":"他們現在教育部裡面"},{"start":7300.2,"end":7302.2,"text":"基本上要做尿液檢查的對象"},{"start":7302.2,"end":7304.2,"text":"包含曾經違反"},{"start":7304.2,"end":7307.2,"text":"毒為條例行為的學生"},{"start":7307.2,"end":7310.2,"text":"還有曾經有休學中錯生"},{"start":7310.2,"end":7312.2,"text":"這個可能也會要求"},{"start":7312.2,"end":7314.2,"text":"要去做尿液篩檢"},{"start":7314.2,"end":7316.2,"text":"還有有事實族認為"},{"start":7316.2,"end":7318.2,"text":"這個學生他是適用毒品嫌疑的"},{"start":7318.2,"end":7320.2,"text":"另外一個很重要的"},{"start":7320.2,"end":7324.2,"text":"就是針對學校裡面的駕駛人員"},{"start":7324.2,"end":7326.2,"text":"也要做這個尿液的篩檢"},{"start":7326.2,"end":7327.2,"text":"因為這是怕萬一"},{"start":7327.2,"end":7329.2,"text":"這駕駛他如果吸毒"},{"start":7329.2,"end":7332.2,"text":"當然會有這個問題"},{"start":7332.2,"end":7334.2,"text":"那麼我現在要講的就是"},{"start":7334.2,"end":7335.2,"text":"多一個毛髮"},{"start":7335.2,"end":7337.2,"text":"它不過就是多一個"},{"start":7337.2,"end":7340.2,"text":"讓主管機關它可以運用去檢查"},{"start":7340.2,"end":7344.2,"text":"這相關的人員或是學生有沒有吸毒"},{"start":7345.2,"end":7346.2,"text":"而且我也沒有講說"},{"start":7346.2,"end":7348.2,"text":"在第一次就要檢…"},{"start":7348.2,"end":7349.2,"text":"就一定要用毛髮測試"},{"start":7349.2,"end":7351.2,"text":"它可以像是剛剛周偉講"},{"start":7351.2,"end":7353.2,"text":"它可以作為復驗"},{"start":7353.2,"end":7354.2,"text":"第二次"},{"start":7354.2,"end":7356.2,"text":"但是在選擇"},{"start":7356.2,"end":7359.2,"text":"要用什麼樣的採證的方式的時候"},{"start":7359.2,"end":7362.2,"text":"至少可以讓行政機關它多一個方式"},{"start":7362.2,"end":7364.2,"text":"這我認為這是非常合理的"},{"start":7364.2,"end":7365.2,"text":"我再次強調"},{"start":7365.2,"end":7367.2,"text":"今天我們不要把這個行政管理手段"},{"start":7367.2,"end":7368.2,"text":"又扯遠了"},{"start":7368.2,"end":7371.2,"text":"又跟司法的這個對爭議有關係"},{"start":7371.2,"end":7376.2,"text":"我認為你這樣給行政部門太大的權限了"},{"start":7376.2,"end":7378.2,"text":"不 其實是正在沒有"},{"start":7378.2,"end":7380.2,"text":"譬如說這學校裡面我是學生"},{"start":7380.2,"end":7382.2,"text":"我比較不良學生"},{"start":7382.2,"end":7383.2,"text":"我前面…"},{"start":7383.2,"end":7385.2,"text":"我們這裡叫做不良組"},{"start":7385.2,"end":7386.2,"text":"我這裡前面都壞子"},{"start":7386.2,"end":7388.2,"text":"但是我們每天都不良"},{"start":7388.2,"end":7390.2,"text":"你不能當教官的人"},{"start":7390.2,"end":7391.2,"text":"當老師的人"},{"start":7391.2,"end":7393.2,"text":"當學務處的人"},{"start":7393.2,"end":7394.2,"text":"看我們幾個"},{"start":7394.2,"end":7395.2,"text":"來 我們帶兩支來檢驗"},{"start":7395.2,"end":7397.2,"text":"我們如果沒有呢"},{"start":7397.2,"end":7398.2,"text":"沒有 周偉"},{"start":7398.2,"end":7399.2,"text":"你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":7399.2,"end":7400.2,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":7400.2,"end":7404.2,"text":"我們幾個如果說我們有去犯法"},{"start":7404.2,"end":7405.2,"text":"刑事犯罪"},{"start":7405.2,"end":7407.2,"text":"那個是刑事偵查的問題"},{"start":7407.2,"end":7409.2,"text":"那不只是拿這個力量"},{"start":7409.2,"end":7410.2,"text":"那要逮捕"},{"start":7410.2,"end":7412.2,"text":"上少年法庭"},{"start":7412.2,"end":7413.2,"text":"這不是"},{"start":7413.2,"end":7417.2,"text":"你賦予學校就變成給他等同"},{"start":7417.2,"end":7421.2,"text":"司法偵查跟偵查機關同樣的武器"},{"start":7422.2,"end":7423.2,"text":"這樣說好了"},{"start":7423.2,"end":7425.2,"text":"我比較保留"},{"start":7425.2,"end":7428.2,"text":"我基本上就是說你只要是對於"},{"start":7428.2,"end":7432.2,"text":"所有任何的特定人員去做檢查"},{"start":7432.2,"end":7434.2,"text":"只要是沒有這個司法"},{"start":7434.2,"end":7436.2,"text":"沒有符合法官保留的話"},{"start":7436.2,"end":7437.2,"text":"他都會有這樣的疑慮"},{"start":7437.2,"end":7439.2,"text":"都會有這樣的疑慮"},{"start":7439.2,"end":7441.2,"text":"今天我在學校裡面開"},{"start":7441.2,"end":7443.2,"text":"開學生的校車駕駛"},{"start":7443.2,"end":7446.2,"text":"我為什麼要接受強制的尿液檢查"},{"start":7446.2,"end":7448.2,"text":"那不是也是懷疑我是吸毒"},{"start":7448.2,"end":7450.2,"text":"這也是對我人格的名譽"},{"start":7450.2,"end":7452.2,"text":"有很大的侵害"},{"start":7452.2,"end":7453.2,"text":"但是我就想說"},{"start":7453.2,"end":7455.2,"text":"因為它是一個行政管理的手段"},{"start":7455.2,"end":7456.2,"text":"這是沒有辦法"},{"start":7456.2,"end":7459.2,"text":"因為我們希望就是能夠維護"},{"start":7459.2,"end":7460.2,"text":"更大的公共安全"},{"start":7460.2,"end":7461.2,"text":"維護公義"},{"start":7461.2,"end":7463.2,"text":"那對於學生來講也是一樣"},{"start":7463.2,"end":7465.2,"text":"所以為什麼教育部他說"},{"start":7465.2,"end":7466.2,"text":"他不是犯犯的"},{"start":7466.2,"end":7468.2,"text":"所有的學生他都要去檢查"},{"start":7468.2,"end":7470.2,"text":"就是手段的問題"},{"start":7470.2,"end":7472.2,"text":"手段要不要多那麼多"},{"start":7472.2,"end":7474.2,"text":"要不要比例原則的問題"},{"start":7474.2,"end":7477.2,"text":"我們講的意見幾乎都一樣"},{"start":7477.2,"end":7480.2,"text":"只是說我們真正的爭執是在於說"},{"start":7480.2,"end":7482.2,"text":"第一個要不要給他這麼多的武器"},{"start":7482.2,"end":7485.2,"text":"第二個然後這一個"},{"start":7485.2,"end":7489.2,"text":"會不會符合比例原則的問題"},{"start":7489.2,"end":7493.2,"text":"我沒有定見就是說多幾個"},{"start":7493.2,"end":7495.2,"text":"你如果說給司法機關"},{"start":7495.2,"end":7498.2,"text":"司法機關要窮盡一切辦法"},{"start":7498.2,"end":7500.2,"text":"除惡誤進打擊犯罪"},{"start":7500.2,"end":7502.2,"text":"它任何的方式我都贊成"},{"start":7502.2,"end":7504.2,"text":"但問題那叫司法機關可以"},{"start":7504.2,"end":7506.2,"text":"可是行政部門"},{"start":7506.2,"end":7508.2,"text":"它到底有沒有這樣的權力"},{"start":7508.2,"end":7510.2,"text":"回到那個原點"},{"start":7510.2,"end":7512.2,"text":"如果說你認為行政外沒有權力的話"},{"start":7512.2,"end":7515.2,"text":"連尿疫的篩檢跟唾液的篩檢"},{"start":7515.2,"end":7517.2,"text":"都不應該有"},{"start":7517.2,"end":7519.2,"text":"這都是展現行政權"},{"start":7519.2,"end":7521.2,"text":"常識權力的一個手段"},{"start":7521.2,"end":7523.2,"text":"所以歐委員我剛剛的前提就是說"},{"start":7523.2,"end":7525.2,"text":"如果不是為了公義的話"},{"start":7525.2,"end":7527.2,"text":"33條都不應該存在"},{"start":7527.2,"end":7529.2,"text":"對所以我們今天回到"},{"start":7529.2,"end":7531.2,"text":"除非你認為這些機關都特別權力關係"},{"start":7531.2,"end":7533.2,"text":"其實我會認為我會支持有33條的"},{"start":7533.2,"end":7537.2,"text":"因為我確實認為毒品的氾濫問題很嚴重"},{"start":7537.2,"end":7540.2,"text":"我甚至認為可以給主管機關多幾個"},{"start":7540.2,"end":7543.2,"text":"去檢查毒品的手段包含減指甲"},{"start":7543.2,"end":7546.2,"text":"我今天其實本來想提個修正建議的"},{"start":7546.2,"end":7547.2,"text":"除了毛髮之外"},{"start":7547.2,"end":7551.2,"text":"甚至連指甲都可以作為檢驗的方式"},{"start":7552.2,"end":7555.2,"text":"因為現在在我們上次去拜訪"},{"start":7555.2,"end":7556.2,"text":"科學建設中心的時候"},{"start":7556.2,"end":7558.2,"text":"他們基本上現在指甲"},{"start":7558.2,"end":7560.2,"text":"剪一小段指甲就可以去驗出"},{"start":7560.2,"end":7561.2,"text":"有沒有毒品了"},{"start":7561.2,"end":7564.2,"text":"沒有啦歐委員方法都對"},{"start":7564.2,"end":7566.2,"text":"你講的方法都對"},{"start":7566.2,"end":7569.2,"text":"我們現在講的是說給司法機關"},{"start":7569.2,"end":7571.2,"text":"或者給行政部門的問題"},{"start":7571.2,"end":7573.2,"text":"你給司法機關的所有的方法都可以"},{"start":7573.2,"end":7575.2,"text":"所有的方法都願意接受"},{"start":7575.2,"end":7578.2,"text":"因為行政管理手段它是個預防手段"},{"start":7578.2,"end":7581.2,"text":"真正發生了毒價車禍"},{"start":7581.2,"end":7582.2,"text":"然後造成人員傷亡"},{"start":7582.2,"end":7586.2,"text":"這時候把它用司法犯罪行為去起訴"},{"start":7586.2,"end":7588.2,"text":"然後再來蒐證"},{"start":7588.2,"end":7590.2,"text":"我覺得那都是很後端的事"},{"start":7590.2,"end":7592.2,"text":"我跟莊昭偉"},{"start":7592.2,"end":7594.2,"text":"其實我想我們的理念都是一樣的"},{"start":7594.2,"end":7596.2,"text":"我今天只是說比較是站在"},{"start":7596.2,"end":7598.2,"text":"就是說以當前現階段"},{"start":7598.2,"end":7601.2,"text":"我們台灣社會真的毒品問題很嚴重"},{"start":7601.2,"end":7603.2,"text":"我們甚至不敢保證"},{"start":7603.2,"end":7605.2,"text":"是不是只有那個不良青少年"},{"start":7605.2,"end":7607.2,"text":"才有這個吸毒的問題"},{"start":7607.2,"end":7610.2,"text":"很多的年長者"},{"start":7610.2,"end":7612.2,"text":"成年人也會有這樣的問題"},{"start":7612.2,"end":7616.2,"text":"而他們可能是在我們公共的機關裡面服務"},{"start":7616.2,"end":7620.2,"text":"今天不問就是多加一個毛法"},{"start":7620.2,"end":7622.2,"text":"而且我們裡面有強調"},{"start":7622.2,"end":7626.2,"text":"未來的實施辦法是由行政院各部門自己去訂定"},{"start":7626.2,"end":7629.2,"text":"他們可以去規範"},{"start":7629.2,"end":7633.2,"text":"到底我現在要採取什麼樣的檢驗手段"},{"start":7633.2,"end":7634.2,"text":"如果說前面兩個檢驗手段"},{"start":7634.2,"end":7636.2,"text":"看起來好像不可行"},{"start":7636.2,"end":7638.2,"text":"或是說發現敵人有漏洞的時候"},{"start":7638.2,"end":7640.2,"text":"我至少還有第三個手段"},{"start":7640.2,"end":7643.2,"text":"難道我們要每一次為了這樣的事情"},{"start":7643.2,"end":7646.2,"text":"然後不斷的去增加補氣嗎"},{"start":7646.2,"end":7647.2,"text":"是啦 翁朝偉你這個說法"},{"start":7647.2,"end":7649.2,"text":"說到最後已經是進入到"},{"start":7649.2,"end":7652.2,"text":"他到底有沒有犯罪的問題"},{"start":7652.2,"end":7654.2,"text":"第一個不行 第二個不行"},{"start":7654.2,"end":7656.2,"text":"已經給你第一個也不行 第二個也不行了"},{"start":7656.2,"end":7659.2,"text":"就是代表你行政部門要閉嘴了"},{"start":7659.2,"end":7660.2,"text":"你不能要追殺人家"},{"start":7660.2,"end":7663.2,"text":"要追殺給司法機關去看他有沒有犯罪"},{"start":7663.2,"end":7664.2,"text":"來 陳昭偉委員"},{"start":7664.2,"end":7667.2,"text":"我再接著來講就讓大家再想想看"},{"start":7667.2,"end":7669.2,"text":"因為譬如說學校"},{"start":7669.2,"end":7670.2,"text":"如果說監測器"},{"start":7670.2,"end":7672.2,"text":"假設我們看到有人"},{"start":7672.2,"end":7674.2,"text":"就是學生不管或是行政人員"},{"start":7674.2,"end":7676.2,"text":"他們做了這個吸毒的"},{"start":7676.2,"end":7678.2,"text":"疑似吸毒的動作"},{"start":7678.2,"end":7680.2,"text":"那等到上班以後"},{"start":7680.2,"end":7682.2,"text":"或放完假以後"},{"start":7682.2,"end":7683.2,"text":"有人去看那個monitor"},{"start":7683.2,"end":7685.2,"text":"發現有這件事情"},{"start":7685.2,"end":7687.2,"text":"那我們要去找出這樣的人的時候"},{"start":7687.2,"end":7690.2,"text":"這個時候其實兩個方法都已經過去了"},{"start":7690.2,"end":7691.2,"text":"尿液"},{"start":7691.2,"end":7694.2,"text":"這個時候就給警察"},{"start":7694.2,"end":7696.2,"text":"就到司法機關去"},{"start":7696.2,"end":7698.2,"text":"還在疑似的地方"},{"start":7698.2,"end":7699.2,"text":"所以我在想說說"},{"start":7699.2,"end":7704.2,"text":"因為時間到尿液大概當天八成就不見了"},{"start":7704.2,"end":7707.2,"text":"然後唾液大概二到五個小時內"},{"start":7707.2,"end":7709.2,"text":"所以我剛剛還說涉及他檢驗能力"},{"start":7709.2,"end":7711.2,"text":"他們一直敗摔 一直跑"},{"start":7711.2,"end":7713.2,"text":"但是一直跑是他還測得出來嗎"},{"start":7713.2,"end":7714.2,"text":"那再來如果我剛剛就舉例"},{"start":7714.2,"end":7716.2,"text":"放個年文駕過去了"},{"start":7716.2,"end":7717.2,"text":"但是這個吸毒"},{"start":7717.2,"end":7718.2,"text":"假設有在做吸毒"},{"start":7718.2,"end":7719.2,"text":"他不會立刻消失"},{"start":7719.2,"end":7720.2,"text":"那這個情況下"},{"start":7720.2,"end":7722.2,"text":"我們如果不保留這個方法"},{"start":7722.2,"end":7724.2,"text":"這個方法還沒有到"},{"start":7724.2,"end":7725.2,"text":"我們是在疑似"},{"start":7725.2,"end":7727.2,"text":"而且這個毛髮"},{"start":7727.2,"end":7728.2,"text":"另外一個方法就是說"},{"start":7728.2,"end":7731.2,"text":"因為我在處理一些相關的管理"},{"start":7731.2,"end":7733.2,"text":"不管健保用藥的管理"},{"start":7733.2,"end":7734.2,"text":"另外一個方法"},{"start":7734.2,"end":7735.2,"text":"當然我也要尊重"},{"start":7735.2,"end":7737.2,"text":"那個翁委員是不是可以接受"},{"start":7737.2,"end":7739.2,"text":"就是說你第一線的方法"},{"start":7739.2,"end":7741.2,"text":"就是譬如說唾液跟尿液"},{"start":7741.2,"end":7743.2,"text":"因為他們是時間很有限"},{"start":7743.2,"end":7745.2,"text":"那第二線的方法"},{"start":7745.2,"end":7746.2,"text":"當這個都沒有"},{"start":7746.2,"end":7749.2,"text":"可是你覺得他的行為還是有疑慮"},{"start":7749.2,"end":7751.2,"text":"那你這個方法還是要背著"},{"start":7751.2,"end":7753.2,"text":"有疑慮怎麼會是行政部門呢"},{"start":7753.2,"end":7757.2,"text":"行政部門管那麼多鳥事幹什麼呢"},{"start":7757.2,"end":7758.2,"text":"我剛剛還提議學生"},{"start":7758.2,"end":7759.2,"text":"已經過了一個假期"},{"start":7759.2,"end":7760.2,"text":"但是我想說一下"},{"start":7760.2,"end":7761.2,"text":"我們這次的排行程"},{"start":7761.2,"end":7763.2,"text":"都讓你給我們標籤化"},{"start":7763.2,"end":7764.2,"text":"問題是現在"},{"start":7764.2,"end":7766.2,"text":"整個作業要點裡面就有講"},{"start":7766.2,"end":7767.2,"text":"大家懷疑某個學生"},{"start":7767.2,"end":7769.2,"text":"他的行為有多糞爛的時候"},{"start":7769.2,"end":7770.2,"text":"就可以去做檢驗"},{"start":7770.2,"end":7772.2,"text":"這是他們現在自己的"},{"start":7772.2,"end":7774.2,"text":"作業要點裡面就講的"},{"start":7774.2,"end":7776.2,"text":"對 所以他並不是講說"},{"start":7776.2,"end":7777.2,"text":"大家都很正常"},{"start":7777.2,"end":7778.2,"text":"看起來都沒問題"},{"start":7778.2,"end":7780.2,"text":"然後我就來做篩檢"},{"start":7780.2,"end":7781.2,"text":"除此之外"},{"start":7781.2,"end":7783.2,"text":"還有針對看到這個駕駛"},{"start":7783.2,"end":7785.2,"text":"感覺到他有點問題"},{"start":7785.2,"end":7787.2,"text":"然後就要去做篩檢"},{"start":7787.2,"end":7789.2,"text":"所以我剛剛講就是說"},{"start":7789.2,"end":7791.2,"text":"我們其實今天訂33條"},{"start":7791.2,"end":7794.2,"text":"是說他除了尿液、唾液"},{"start":7794.2,"end":7796.2,"text":"再加一個毛髮的檢測"},{"start":7796.2,"end":7798.2,"text":"然後所有的實施辦法"},{"start":7798.2,"end":7800.2,"text":"由行政院自己去訂"},{"start":7800.2,"end":7801.2,"text":"他也可以說好吧"},{"start":7801.2,"end":7802.2,"text":"那我第一線"},{"start":7802.2,"end":7805.2,"text":"我一開始我先用尿液、唾液"},{"start":7805.2,"end":7807.2,"text":"然後之後發現"},{"start":7807.2,"end":7808.2,"text":"還是不是很妥當"},{"start":7808.2,"end":7809.2,"text":"毛髮要幾天"},{"start":7809.2,"end":7811.2,"text":"市長 毛髮要幾天"},{"start":7812.2,"end":7814.2,"text":"幾天 你的鑑定結果"},{"start":7814.2,"end":7815.2,"text":"你說鑑定結果"},{"start":7815.2,"end":7817.2,"text":"毛髮要幾天 脫衣錠要快一點嗎"},{"start":7817.2,"end":7818.2,"text":"毛髮一定超過一個月以上"},{"start":7818.2,"end":7819.2,"text":"那我這邊補充一下"},{"start":7819.2,"end":7820.2,"text":"沒有 超過一個月"},{"start":7820.2,"end":7821.2,"text":"那委員報告"},{"start":7821.2,"end":7823.2,"text":"我這邊有一個調查局"},{"start":7823.2,"end":7825.2,"text":"毛髮檢體的標準"},{"start":7825.2,"end":7826.2,"text":"他必須要集"},{"start":7826.2,"end":7827.2,"text":"他不是一根一根採"},{"start":7827.2,"end":7832.2,"text":"他要集中在後顱頂頂部"},{"start":7832.2,"end":7833.2,"text":"而且要一束"},{"start":7833.2,"end":7834.2,"text":"要集中一束"},{"start":7834.2,"end":7837.2,"text":"這一束的直徑要達0.7公分"},{"start":7838.2,"end":7839.2,"text":"這個是他的"},{"start":7839.2,"end":7841.2,"text":"我剛剛看了一個這個"},{"start":7841.2,"end":7843.2,"text":"這一束我剛剛其實調查局"},{"start":7843.2,"end":7845.2,"text":"回報的結果大概要25根左右"},{"start":7845.2,"end":7846.2,"text":"市長 你說這樣的話"},{"start":7846.2,"end":7848.2,"text":"我覺得又真的是背離科學"},{"start":7848.2,"end":7850.2,"text":"你看你們有時候看到"},{"start":7850.2,"end":7851.2,"text":"有什麼殺人犯"},{"start":7851.2,"end":7853.2,"text":"然後屍體旁邊"},{"start":7853.2,"end":7854.2,"text":"只要一根根的"},{"start":7854.2,"end":7855.2,"text":"一點點的毛髮"},{"start":7855.2,"end":7856.2,"text":"都可以去檢驗"},{"start":7856.2,"end":7857.2,"text":"說到底他是"},{"start":7857.2,"end":7859.2,"text":"哪一個犯罪行為人有的"},{"start":7859.2,"end":7860.2,"text":"沒關係 委員"},{"start":7860.2,"end":7861.2,"text":"你現在要這樣一搓頭嗎"},{"start":7861.2,"end":7862.2,"text":"委員"},{"start":7862.2,"end":7864.2,"text":"那個立法院的發言"},{"start":7864.2,"end":7867.2,"text":"官員來這個都列入公報"},{"start":7867.2,"end":7869.2,"text":"我相信市長也不會亂講"},{"start":7869.2,"end":7871.2,"text":"你說有時候難免口誤會有"},{"start":7871.2,"end":7872.2,"text":"我看他那麼堅持"},{"start":7872.2,"end":7876.2,"text":"我們都對於這個政府官員"},{"start":7876.2,"end":7877.2,"text":"尤其是專業機關"},{"start":7877.2,"end":7879.2,"text":"我們表達尊重"},{"start":7879.2,"end":7881.2,"text":"但是這條"},{"start":7881.2,"end":7882.2,"text":"大家再考慮一下"},{"start":7882.2,"end":7884.2,"text":"我們不能賦予行政部門"},{"start":7884.2,"end":7887.2,"text":"行政部門等同是司法部門"},{"start":7887.2,"end":7890.2,"text":"說剛才這部分就當作"},{"start":7890.2,"end":7893.2,"text":"沒關係 叫行政部門來代行"},{"start":7893.2,"end":7894.2,"text":"這個偵查機關"},{"start":7894.2,"end":7896.2,"text":"或者司法部門的職權"},{"start":7896.2,"end":7898.2,"text":"這也怪怪的"},{"start":7898.2,"end":7899.2,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":7899.2,"end":7902.2,"text":"我的基因裡面告訴我"},{"start":7902.2,"end":7904.2,"text":"告訴我這個地方"},{"start":7904.2,"end":7906.2,"text":"不然的話我們這條是不是就先保留"},{"start":7906.2,"end":7907.2,"text":"好啦 這條先保留"},{"start":7907.2,"end":7909.2,"text":"這條已經拖了兩小時了"},{"start":7909.2,"end":7910.2,"text":"來"},{"start":7914.2,"end":7917.2,"text":"33條之一"},{"start":7917.2,"end":7920.2,"text":"這樣就配合33條"},{"start":7920.2,"end":7923.2,"text":"修正著修"},{"start":7923.2,"end":7924.2,"text":"整理這個毛法"},{"start":7924.2,"end":7925.2,"text":"對 是"},{"start":7925.2,"end":7927.2,"text":"這33條之一也要跟著"},{"start":7927.2,"end":7928.2,"text":"保留"},{"start":7928.2,"end":7930.2,"text":"是 可以保留"},{"start":7930.2,"end":7932.2,"text":"36條也保留"},{"start":7932.2,"end":7934.2,"text":"這樣就全部都保留"},{"start":7934.2,"end":7935.2,"text":"好"},{"start":7935.2,"end":7936.2,"text":"其實都有"},{"start":7936.2,"end":7938.2,"text":"今天的討論也有它的價值"},{"start":7938.2,"end":7941.2,"text":"大家下一次協商的時辰"},{"start":7941.2,"end":7943.2,"text":"大家再來討論一下"},{"start":7943.2,"end":7945.2,"text":"我請各位委員"},{"start":7945.2,"end":7947.2,"text":"我知道今天"},{"start":7947.2,"end":7949.2,"text":"司法法制委員會的委員"},{"start":7949.2,"end":7950.2,"text":"今天會到場的"},{"start":7950.2,"end":7953.2,"text":"其實大家都有對這個議題充分的關心"},{"start":7953.2,"end":7956.2,"text":"我看發言都有所本"},{"start":7956.2,"end":7958.2,"text":"大家也都充分的一個準備"},{"start":7958.2,"end":7962.2,"text":"但是涉及到是不是要讓行政部門"},{"start":7962.2,"end":7964.2,"text":"讓它擁有跟司法機關"},{"start":7964.2,"end":7966.2,"text":"同等的一個權限"},{"start":7966.2,"end":7968.2,"text":"要不要多給它這樣的一個武器"},{"start":7968.2,"end":7970.2,"text":"大家再考慮看看"},{"start":7971.2,"end":7975.2,"text":"3個條文都保留"},{"start":7975.2,"end":7977.2,"text":"附帶決議是一定保留"},{"start":7977.2,"end":7978.2,"text":"那附帶決議呢"},{"start":7978.2,"end":7982.2,"text":"附帶決議第一欄請問提案的委員"},{"start":7982.2,"end":7983.2,"text":"這條是什麼人提案"},{"start":7983.2,"end":7984.2,"text":"是第一項嗎"},{"start":7984.2,"end":7986.2,"text":"成交是委員來"},{"start":7986.2,"end":7988.2,"text":"那今天拓業沒有保留"},{"start":7988.2,"end":7989.2,"text":"對"},{"start":7989.2,"end":7990.2,"text":"你針對拓業沒了"},{"start":7990.2,"end":7992.2,"text":"剛剛這個連張案"},{"start":7992.2,"end":7993.2,"text":"其實范元元都有提到"},{"start":7993.2,"end":7995.2,"text":"他們有所謂的這個偽陽性"},{"start":7995.2,"end":7997.2,"text":"偽陽性的這個出現"},{"start":7997.2,"end":7999.2,"text":"因為任何檢查都一樣"},{"start":7999.2,"end":8001.2,"text":"那我們今天還不談偽陰性"},{"start":8001.2,"end":8003.2,"text":"偽陽性的意思就是說"},{"start":8003.2,"end":8004.2,"text":"因為這個特異性不夠"},{"start":8004.2,"end":8006.2,"text":"我用科學先解釋一下"},{"start":8006.2,"end":8007.2,"text":"就是說你這個本來要測"},{"start":8007.2,"end":8009.2,"text":"假設你要測一脫彌質"},{"start":8009.2,"end":8011.2,"text":"結果別的東西也都被測到"},{"start":8011.2,"end":8012.2,"text":"但它不是毒品"},{"start":8012.2,"end":8013.2,"text":"也不是一脫彌質"},{"start":8013.2,"end":8014.2,"text":"特異性不夠"},{"start":8014.2,"end":8015.2,"text":"所以有跑出偽陽性"},{"start":8015.2,"end":8016.2,"text":"那偽陰相對就是說"},{"start":8016.2,"end":8017.2,"text":"你的敏感性不夠"},{"start":8017.2,"end":8019.2,"text":"那個量其實存在"},{"start":8019.2,"end":8021.2,"text":"但是你的檢驗能力出問題"},{"start":8021.2,"end":8022.2,"text":"就測不到"},{"start":8022.2,"end":8023.2,"text":"那偽陽性這個部分"},{"start":8023.2,"end":8025.2,"text":"我們先看偽陽性這個部分"},{"start":8025.2,"end":8026.2,"text":"因為第一層"},{"start":8026.2,"end":8028.2,"text":"我是幫第一層的員警請命"},{"start":8028.2,"end":8030.2,"text":"因為他們就是做這個執行"},{"start":8030.2,"end":8032.2,"text":"這個大概尿液跟唾液"},{"start":8032.2,"end":8033.2,"text":"大家都沒有意見"},{"start":8033.2,"end":8034.2,"text":"那如果是因為試劑"},{"start":8034.2,"end":8036.2,"text":"或技術上出問題的時候"},{"start":8036.2,"end":8038.2,"text":"那當場就開單"},{"start":8038.2,"end":8040.2,"text":"要一致保管車輛甚至扣罩"},{"start":8040.2,"end":8042.2,"text":"那事後檢驗結果卻沒有吸毒"},{"start":8042.2,"end":8044.2,"text":"因為現在偽陽性已經出現了"},{"start":8044.2,"end":8045.2,"text":"我看都完了"},{"start":8045.2,"end":8046.2,"text":"那第一線員警怎麼辦"},{"start":8046.2,"end":8047.2,"text":"他第一個也有壓力"},{"start":8047.2,"end":8050.2,"text":"那如果民眾事後要提救濟"},{"start":8050.2,"end":8051.2,"text":"那我們要怎麼來處理"},{"start":8051.2,"end":8053.2,"text":"因為他可能損失很多吧"},{"start":8053.2,"end":8054.2,"text":"車子也不見得"},{"start":8054.2,"end":8055.2,"text":"不能工作了等等"},{"start":8055.2,"end":8056.2,"text":"很好"},{"start":8056.2,"end":8057.2,"text":"這些情況問題"},{"start":8057.2,"end":8058.2,"text":"我想我就不要完整的"},{"start":8058.2,"end":8060.2,"text":"車子要被扣走了"},{"start":8060.2,"end":8061.2,"text":"所以我是覺得說"},{"start":8061.2,"end":8063.2,"text":"希望本來今天不管過或沒有過"},{"start":8063.2,"end":8065.2,"text":"是不是就是要盡快"},{"start":8065.2,"end":8066.2,"text":"也許我是協商的"},{"start":8066.2,"end":8068.2,"text":"沒關係我們請那個好伯"},{"start":8068.2,"end":8071.2,"text":"對你的提案請他們表達看法好不好"},{"start":8071.2,"end":8073.2,"text":"因為我的提案的次數不多"},{"start":8073.2,"end":8075.2,"text":"沒關係 那就市長你們對"},{"start":8075.2,"end":8076.2,"text":"承招之委員這個提案"},{"start":8076.2,"end":8077.2,"text":"補救機制"},{"start":8077.2,"end":8079.2,"text":"有關於這個快篩委員"},{"start":8079.2,"end":8080.2,"text":"補救機制的部分"},{"start":8080.2,"end":8081.2,"text":"因為委員是提到"},{"start":8081.2,"end":8082.2,"text":"這個車輛保管"},{"start":8082.2,"end":8084.2,"text":"調扣駕照跟裁罰"},{"start":8084.2,"end":8086.2,"text":"其實這跟法務部的執掌沒有關係"},{"start":8086.2,"end":8089.2,"text":"那關於這個使用快篩"},{"start":8089.2,"end":8090.2,"text":"第一線也是警察使用"},{"start":8090.2,"end":8092.2,"text":"法務部本身沒有在用這一個"},{"start":8092.2,"end":8094.2,"text":"所以這個請法務部會同"},{"start":8094.2,"end":8095.2,"text":"這個可能是不是主管機關"},{"start":8095.2,"end":8096.2,"text":"是不是要改一個"},{"start":8096.2,"end":8097.2,"text":"真正的目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8097.2,"end":8099.2,"text":"可以了 請你們研議一下"},{"start":8099.2,"end":8103.2,"text":"他是研議具體的救濟跟補償機制"},{"start":8103.2,"end":8105.2,"text":"給你們研議而已"},{"start":8105.2,"end":8107.2,"text":"不是 我說是不是交通部"},{"start":8107.2,"end":8108.2,"text":"因為前面講的車輛調扣"},{"start":8108.2,"end":8109.2,"text":"這不是哪個部門"},{"start":8109.2,"end":8112.2,"text":"你們認為不是法務部"},{"start":8112.2,"end":8113.2,"text":"這不是法務部"},{"start":8113.2,"end":8115.2,"text":"第一線執法的人員"},{"start":8117.2,"end":8120.2,"text":"法務部本身沒有在用快篩"},{"start":8120.2,"end":8123.2,"text":"這樣這個應該算罐"},{"start":8125.2,"end":8127.2,"text":"交通部怎麼來"},{"start":8127.2,"end":8130.2,"text":"交通部就不是我們會"},{"start":8130.2,"end":8131.2,"text":"我們去跟他們說"},{"start":8131.2,"end":8133.2,"text":"這個上交通部這樣也怪怪"},{"start":8133.2,"end":8135.2,"text":"我們是希望要配合"},{"start":8135.2,"end":8137.2,"text":"法務部會同那個"},{"start":8137.2,"end":8138.2,"text":"衛福部來警政署"},{"start":8138.2,"end":8141.2,"text":"去把這件事研擬出來"},{"start":8141.2,"end":8144.2,"text":"因為這個委陽性的可能性"},{"start":8144.2,"end":8146.2,"text":"主責機關還叫主管機關"},{"start":8146.2,"end":8149.2,"text":"我們可以協同"},{"start":8150.2,"end":8151.2,"text":"早知"},{"start":8151.2,"end":8153.2,"text":"我們不是主責機關"},{"start":8153.2,"end":8156.2,"text":"應該不是我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":8156.2,"end":8159.2,"text":"這個案應該不是在我們這裡"},{"start":8160.2,"end":8161.2,"text":"他們可以去研議"},{"start":8161.2,"end":8163.2,"text":"跨部會大家都沒有人做"},{"start":8163.2,"end":8165.2,"text":"這應該是這裡都委員會"},{"start":8165.2,"end":8166.2,"text":"這裡都委員會"},{"start":8166.2,"end":8168.2,"text":"我們在處理毒品"},{"start":8169.2,"end":8171.2,"text":"我們處理毒品問題涉及到的"},{"start":8171.2,"end":8172.2,"text":"全部都不是我們"},{"start":8172.2,"end":8174.2,"text":"司法法制主責的"},{"start":8174.2,"end":8176.2,"text":"因為他是扣押車輛"},{"start":8176.2,"end":8178.2,"text":"調扣駕照裁罰都不是屬於司法法"},{"start":8178.2,"end":8180.2,"text":"他就是因為撤出他是陽性"},{"start":8180.2,"end":8182.2,"text":"但是這後來發生政治是委的"},{"start":8182.2,"end":8185.2,"text":"所以就是說就不對了"},{"start":8185.2,"end":8186.2,"text":"不對啦不對"},{"start":8186.2,"end":8187.2,"text":"你後面做的行為"},{"start":8187.2,"end":8189.2,"text":"你要給他有一個補充"},{"start":8189.2,"end":8190.2,"text":"這個法務部不是他補的"},{"start":8190.2,"end":8193.2,"text":"因為他的職長就不是在這裡"},{"start":8194.2,"end":8197.2,"text":"沒有可是他整個委陽性的案件"},{"start":8197.2,"end":8200.2,"text":"還是你這個去交通處理"},{"start":8201.2,"end":8202.2,"text":"那有可能辦給他"},{"start":8202.2,"end":8203.2,"text":"交通研議"},{"start":8204.2,"end":8205.2,"text":"這個在我們這裡處理"},{"start":8205.2,"end":8206.2,"text":"法務部甚至到有關補償的"},{"start":8206.2,"end":8208.2,"text":"相關的這個法律救濟的問題"},{"start":8208.2,"end":8210.2,"text":"應該是法務部這邊也可以研議"},{"start":8210.2,"end":8213.2,"text":"就算是可能不是你們主管的法規"},{"start":8213.2,"end":8215.2,"text":"提一個報告也應該"},{"start":8215.2,"end":8216.2,"text":"但是我想說一下"},{"start":8216.2,"end":8217.2,"text":"這只是提個報告而已"},{"start":8217.2,"end":8219.2,"text":"但是我想因為其實每個主管"},{"start":8219.2,"end":8221.2,"text":"事業主管目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8221.2,"end":8223.2,"text":"他都你如果要這樣講的話"},{"start":8223.2,"end":8224.2,"text":"那這樣等於是所有事情"},{"start":8224.2,"end":8225.2,"text":"都可以回到法務部"},{"start":8225.2,"end":8226.2,"text":"可是不是嘛"},{"start":8226.2,"end":8227.2,"text":"應該還是要回到這件事情"},{"start":8227.2,"end":8229.2,"text":"到底事實上是誰主責"},{"start":8230.2,"end":8231.2,"text":"所以我覺得大家講這東西"},{"start":8231.2,"end":8232.2,"text":"我也非常認同"},{"start":8232.2,"end":8234.2,"text":"他的確發聲"},{"start":8234.2,"end":8235.2,"text":"我們也收到很多澄清"},{"start":8235.2,"end":8238.2,"text":"只是說今天目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8238.2,"end":8240.2,"text":"不是在司法法制委員會"},{"start":8240.2,"end":8243.2,"text":"所以才會說建議說是不是到交"},{"start":8243.2,"end":8244.2,"text":"我是不太確定到底是交通委員會"},{"start":8244.2,"end":8246.2,"text":"還是內政委員會"},{"start":8246.2,"end":8249.2,"text":"那是不是應該到那邊去處理才對"},{"start":8249.2,"end":8252.2,"text":"因為所有的機關都會去處理救濟補償"},{"start":8253.2,"end":8255.2,"text":"因為你這個說的是說"},{"start":8255.2,"end":8259.2,"text":"當場車輛去用移置"},{"start":8259.2,"end":8261.2,"text":"調控駕照"},{"start":8261.2,"end":8263.2,"text":"還有裁罰"},{"start":8263.2,"end":8267.2,"text":"這一些其實你說叫他的補償機制"},{"start":8267.2,"end":8268.2,"text":"要怎樣"},{"start":8268.2,"end":8270.2,"text":"你的車有什麼拖去"},{"start":8270.2,"end":8272.2,"text":"去用拖去"},{"start":8272.2,"end":8273.2,"text":"拖去補罐"},{"start":8273.2,"end":8275.2,"text":"還是那個調造"},{"start":8275.2,"end":8278.2,"text":"那個駕照調控駕照"},{"start":8278.2,"end":8281.2,"text":"你說救濟應該是交通部"},{"start":8281.2,"end":8284.2,"text":"事後證明是清白的時候"},{"start":8284.2,"end":8287.2,"text":"我意思說針對這些事項"},{"start":8287.2,"end":8289.2,"text":"要怎樣救濟的部分"},{"start":8289.2,"end":8292.2,"text":"是不是交通部"},{"start":8292.2,"end":8294.2,"text":"不是說你這個不好"},{"start":8294.2,"end":8295.2,"text":"我的意思說是不是"},{"start":8295.2,"end":8298.2,"text":"這不見得是跟交通部有關"},{"start":8298.2,"end":8300.2,"text":"因為這邊是講第一線執法人員"},{"start":8300.2,"end":8303.2,"text":"法務部下面有很多也是執法人員"},{"start":8303.2,"end":8305.2,"text":"他測出如果有偽陽性"},{"start":8305.2,"end":8307.2,"text":"那你到時候你法務部要怎麼針對"},{"start":8307.2,"end":8309.2,"text":"這些偽陽性的這些人員們"},{"start":8309.2,"end":8311.2,"text":"然後來這個"},{"start":8311.2,"end":8313.2,"text":"他不見得是指員警"},{"start":8313.2,"end":8314.2,"text":"當然有員警"},{"start":8314.2,"end":8316.2,"text":"然後還有其他的"},{"start":8316.2,"end":8317.2,"text":"這些人也都是一樣"},{"start":8317.2,"end":8319.2,"text":"那我現在是講說"},{"start":8319.2,"end":8320.2,"text":"不要管車輛好了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