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還有一些媒體的朋友"},{"start":1913.44,"end":1916.44,"text":"那我們今天是立法院第十一屆修憲委員會"},{"start":1916.44,"end":1918.6,"text":"辦的第一場公聽會"},{"start":1918.6,"end":1925.32,"text":"是依據我們本會第一次召委會決議的結果來辦理"},{"start":1925.32,"end":1928.6,"text":"那我想今天之所以會有這一個公聽會"},{"start":1928.6,"end":1932.48,"text":"大家都知道憲法是我們國家的根本大法"},{"start":1932.6,"end":1934.52,"text":"那也是保障人民權利"},{"start":1934.52,"end":1937.68,"text":"規範政府權利的最高的一個契約"},{"start":1937.68,"end":1939.52,"text":"不過隨著時代的轉變"},{"start":1939.52,"end":1943.28,"text":"社會脈動跟世代的價值都持續"},{"start":1943.28,"end":1945.1200000000001,"text":"而且快速的在做更新"},{"start":1945.1200000000001,"end":1948.4,"text":"那憲法怎麼樣在保持穩定的同時"},{"start":1948.4,"end":1949.8,"text":"又能夠與時俱進"},{"start":1949.8,"end":1953.8,"text":"回應當前國家發展跟民主深化的一個需求"},{"start":1953.8,"end":1957.4,"text":"我想現在是我們面臨的最重大的課題"},{"start":1957.4,"end":1959.6,"text":"那所以我們今天公聽會的議題"},{"start":1959.6,"end":1962.24,"text":"其實就是自民國八十年第一次"},{"start":1962.28,"end":1965.84,"text":"公布制定中華民國憲法徵修條文後"},{"start":1965.84,"end":1969.16,"text":"到民國九十四年第七次徵修後"},{"start":1969.16,"end":1972.64,"text":"我們於二十年未曾變動至憲政體制"},{"start":1972.64,"end":1975.92,"text":"與五權分立制度及實務運作"},{"start":1975.92,"end":1978.68,"text":"產生一些困境的一些探討"},{"start":1978.68,"end":1980.84,"text":"那我們今天將就制度上"},{"start":1980.84,"end":1982.88,"text":"討論五權分立下"},{"start":1982.88,"end":1986.32,"text":"各院是否仍能有效的發揮其功能"},{"start":1986.32,"end":1989.88,"text":"那若改為四權或者是三權分立之下"},{"start":1989.92,"end":1994.3600000000001,"text":"各制度都帶給我們的利益跟挑戰又是什麼"},{"start":1994.3600000000001,"end":1997.96,"text":"為了能完整收集各個層面的專業知識跟討論"},{"start":1997.96,"end":2000.0800000000002,"text":"希望接下來各位學者專家們"},{"start":2000.0800000000002,"end":2002.8000000000002,"text":"能夠在此暢所欲言"},{"start":2002.8000000000002,"end":2003.72,"text":"這個互相討論"},{"start":2003.72,"end":2007.1200000000001,"text":"我們今天邀請到了十二位的學者專家"},{"start":2007.1200000000001,"end":2009.2,"text":"敬請各位學者專家就此議題"},{"start":2009.2,"end":2011.88,"text":"給我們非常寶貴的一個意見"},{"start":2011.88,"end":2014.6000000000001,"text":"那我們今天公聽會的進行程序"},{"start":2014.6000000000001,"end":2016.6000000000001,"text":"我們會先由一位立法委員"},{"start":2016.6000000000001,"end":2018.8400000000001,"text":"然後來進行發言"},{"start":2018.84,"end":2021.8799999999999,"text":"然後接下來就是由學者三位"},{"start":2021.8799999999999,"end":2022.52,"text":"然後進行發言"},{"start":2022.52,"end":2024.48,"text":"然後再來是一位立法委員"},{"start":2024.48,"end":2027.48,"text":"我們大概就用這樣的順序來進行"},{"start":2027.48,"end":2030.84,"text":"那每位委員的發言時間"},{"start":2030.84,"end":2033.24,"text":"我們限定是五分鐘"},{"start":2033.24,"end":2037.52,"text":"那交替到學者專家跟登記發言的本院的委員"},{"start":2037.52,"end":2039.28,"text":"都發言完畢"},{"start":2039.28,"end":2042.3999999999999,"text":"那最後我們試時間的許可"},{"start":2042.3999999999999,"end":2044.8,"text":"是不是可以再進行二輪的發言"},{"start":2044.8,"end":2046.6799999999998,"text":"那就採我們自由發言"},{"start":2046.72,"end":2050.7200000000003,"text":"那現在我們來介紹現場出席的學者專家"},{"start":2050.7200000000003,"end":2053.7200000000003,"text":"那因為我這邊是按照這個"},{"start":2053.7200000000003,"end":2055.6800000000003,"text":"我們那個各"},{"start":2057.45,"end":2059.5299999999997,"text":"黨團推薦的順序"},{"start":2059.5299999999997,"end":2061.0099999999998,"text":"那我先介紹第一位"},{"start":2061.0099999999998,"end":2064.85,"text":"是中國文化大學政治學系的楊太順教授"},{"start":2064.85,"end":2065.37,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2068.23,"end":2071.19,"text":"第二位是中國文化大學的林炳南教授"},{"start":2071.99,"end":2072.5499999999997,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2074.38,"end":2078.7000000000003,"text":"第三位是臺灣大學政治學系彭景鵬副教授"},{"start":2078.7000000000003,"end":2079.42,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2081.35,"end":2086.19,"text":"第四位是臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系的陳志華教授"},{"start":2086.19,"end":2086.87,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2088.23,"end":2092.19,"text":"第五位是東部大學政治學系的謝正宇教授"},{"start":2092.19,"end":2092.87,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2094.44,"end":2098.36,"text":"第六位是大衡國際法律事務所的林全和主持律師"},{"start":2099.58,"end":2100.22,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2100.97,"end":2104.85,"text":"第七位是明倫法律事務所的房問晖主持律師"},{"start":2106.2599999999998,"end":2107.22,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2107.22,"end":2111.8599999999997,"text":"第八位是中央研究院法律學研究所的林建世研究員"},{"start":2111.8599999999997,"end":2112.4199999999996,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2113.14,"end":2117.62,"text":"第九位是輔仁大學法律學院的姚孟昌助理教授"},{"start":2118.93,"end":2119.93,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2119.93,"end":2125.37,"text":"第十位是臺灣世貿大學客語客家文化教學研究中心的曾健元副教授"},{"start":2126.39,"end":2127.59,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2127.59,"end":2134.0299999999997,"text":"第十一位是中央警察大學公共安全學系的蔡義仲助理教授"},{"start":2134.0299999999997,"end":2134.59,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":2135.97,"end":2141.1699999999996,"text":"第十二位是中正裁法系的法學院的院長盛子龍教授"},{"start":2143.73,"end":2145.61,"text":"非常歡迎大家"},{"start":2145.61,"end":2147.81,"text":"接下來我們介紹在場的委員"},{"start":2147.81,"end":2150.31,"text":"第一位是我們的賴世寶委員"},{"start":2152.42,"end":2154.42,"text":"那第二位是我們的蔡純琢委員"},{"start":2155.95,"end":2157.95,"text":"好 我想我們的委員應該會陸續到達"},{"start":2157.95,"end":2159.95,"text":"那我們是不是就開始進行各位的發言"},{"start":2159.95,"end":2161.95,"text":"那是不是有請賴世保委員進行發言"},{"start":2170.83,"end":2172.83,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進"},{"start":2173.85,"end":2174.35,"text":"那麼"},{"start":2175.45,"end":2177.45,"text":"我記得我剛看台下好幾位教授"},{"start":2177.45,"end":2179.45,"text":"都是以前我們的國代老同事"},{"start":2181.43,"end":2183.43,"text":"我記得那時候"},{"start":2183.43,"end":2185.43,"text":"我們在修憲的時候是1997年"},{"start":2187.55,"end":2189.55,"text":"今天的修憲"},{"start":2189.7,"end":2191.7,"text":"的公聽會"},{"start":2191.1,"end":2193.1,"text":"主要的我們叫trigger"},{"start":2193.51,"end":2195.51,"text":"這扣板機的是因為"},{"start":2196.55,"end":2198.55,"text":"有人提到要廢監察院"},{"start":2199.6,"end":2203.6,"text":"等於是把整個的五權憲法的架構"},{"start":2203.6,"end":2207.6,"text":"想要往三權分立的方向走"},{"start":2207.6,"end":2209.6,"text":"這是很大的事情"},{"start":2209.64,"end":2211.64,"text":"因此在啟動這個修憲"},{"start":2211.64,"end":2213.64,"text":"那我個人呢在"},{"start":2213.61,"end":2215.61,"text":"一直都有提只要修憲我就提一個案子"},{"start":2215.61,"end":2217.61,"text":"叫恢復閣樓同意權"},{"start":2220.97,"end":2222.97,"text":"想當年我這個當"},{"start":2223.84,"end":2225.84,"text":"在國代的時候"},{"start":2225.46,"end":2227.46,"text":"在1997年"},{"start":2227.5,"end":2229.5,"text":"那時候看了就非常清楚"},{"start":2229.93,"end":2231.93,"text":"原來中華民國的憲法"},{"start":2232.51,"end":2234.51,"text":"他是偏向內閣制"},{"start":2235.16,"end":2237.16,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":2238.25,"end":2240.25,"text":"有同意權"},{"start":2240.17,"end":2242.17,"text":"有內閣委員同意權什麼意思"},{"start":2242.17,"end":2244.17,"text":"他就迷基礎啊"},{"start":2243.97,"end":2245.97,"text":"雖然他這個名義"},{"start":2245.97,"end":2247.97,"text":"他不是直接明選可是"},{"start":2247.97,"end":2249.97,"text":"因為我們立委百分之百的名義"},{"start":2249.97,"end":2251.97,"text":"我們去同意他"},{"start":2251.97,"end":2253.97,"text":"他就有間接的名義基礎"},{"start":2255.09,"end":2257.09,"text":"結果在1997年"},{"start":2256.93,"end":2258.93,"text":"把他拿掉了"},{"start":2258.77,"end":2260.77,"text":"拿掉了"},{"start":2260.77,"end":2262.77,"text":"要跟法國一樣雙手掌制的"},{"start":2262.77,"end":2264.77,"text":"設計"},{"start":2264.64,"end":2266.64,"text":"可是各位可以看得很清楚"},{"start":2266.78,"end":2268.78,"text":"我們的憲法修到現在為止"},{"start":2269.28,"end":2271.28,"text":"他基本上就是"},{"start":2271.59,"end":2273.59,"text":"表面上雙手掌制"},{"start":2273.59,"end":2275.59,"text":"實際上"},{"start":2275.93,"end":2277.93,"text":"是偏向總統制"},{"start":2277.92,"end":2279.92,"text":"這個總統制跟美國總統制又不一樣"},{"start":2281.41,"end":2283.41,"text":"美國總統還受到國會的撤走"},{"start":2290.53,"end":2292.53,"text":"我的總統現在跟皇帝一樣"},{"start":2292.53,"end":2294.53,"text":"爽得不得了啊"},{"start":2294.24,"end":2296.24,"text":"你看有總統過去有總統"},{"start":2296.24,"end":2298.24,"text":"從來一年多來沒有開記者會"},{"start":2298.24,"end":2300.24,"text":"沒有露臉跟外面講話"},{"start":2300.24,"end":2302.24,"text":"都沒有"},{"start":2302.46,"end":2304.46,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":2304.09,"end":2306.09,"text":"他就只做一件事情"},{"start":2306.09,"end":2308.09,"text":"他找一個豆沙包"},{"start":2308.09,"end":2310.09,"text":"叫做行政院長"},{"start":2310.09,"end":2312.09,"text":"哪當立法院讓你去攻讓你去打"},{"start":2312.09,"end":2314.09,"text":"他躲在後面在總統府裡面納糧"},{"start":2314.93,"end":2316.93,"text":"所以我們中華民國"},{"start":2316.93,"end":2318.93,"text":"現在的憲政體制下的總統"},{"start":2318.93,"end":2320.93,"text":"是全世界權力最大"},{"start":2322.87,"end":2324.87,"text":"監督最小的超級大總統"},{"start":2324.87,"end":2326.87,"text":"是一個憲政怪獸"},{"start":2329.08,"end":2331.08,"text":"你講川普總統"},{"start":2331.08,"end":2333.08,"text":"再怎麼樣的強勢要罷"},{"start":2334.13,"end":2336.13,"text":"他還是受到國會的制約"},{"start":2336.66,"end":2338.66,"text":"當"},{"start":2338.35,"end":2340.35,"text":"司法系統說"},{"start":2340.35,"end":2342.35,"text":"你的"},{"start":2341.57,"end":2343.57,"text":"你的對等關稅是違法"},{"start":2344.02,"end":2346.02,"text":"他就乖乖鼻子摸下去了"},{"start":2346.02,"end":2348.02,"text":"跟台灣談了ART"},{"start":2348.02,"end":2350.02,"text":"就不算數了就停在那裡"},{"start":2350.02,"end":2352.02,"text":"他再用其他301來處理等等"},{"start":2352.02,"end":2354.02,"text":"所以可見的"},{"start":2354.77,"end":2356.77,"text":"全世界大家都知道"},{"start":2356.77,"end":2358.77,"text":"權力越大制衡力量應該越大"},{"start":2358.77,"end":2360.77,"text":"可是在中華民國"},{"start":2360.77,"end":2362.77,"text":"在台灣這個地方"},{"start":2362.51,"end":2364.51,"text":"權力這麼大的總統"},{"start":2364.62,"end":2366.62,"text":"完全沒有受到"},{"start":2367.42,"end":2369.42,"text":"自嚇"},{"start":2373.45,"end":2375.45,"text":"上海到最少10萬人"},{"start":2376.67,"end":2378.67,"text":"有人講20萬"},{"start":2378.67,"end":2380.67,"text":"不管怎麼樣"},{"start":2380.67,"end":2382.67,"text":"全部滿滿的"},{"start":2383.02,"end":2385.02,"text":"我們的訴求就是什麼"},{"start":2384.87,"end":2386.87,"text":"總統道歉行政院長下台"},{"start":2388.11,"end":2390.11,"text":"結果現在行政部門的回答是"},{"start":2390.11,"end":2392.11,"text":"你都不理你"},{"start":2392.11,"end":2394.11,"text":"回去上班啦"},{"start":2394.11,"end":2396.11,"text":"你回去上班啦"},{"start":2395.12,"end":2397.12,"text":"這麼傲慢的態度"},{"start":2397.18,"end":2399.18,"text":"是可能是不可能"},{"start":2399.25,"end":2401.25,"text":"因此蔣華硬市場提出來"},{"start":2404.11,"end":2406.11,"text":"你要問我個人的意見"},{"start":2406.11,"end":2408.11,"text":"我是贊成"},{"start":2407.23,"end":2409.23,"text":"當然知道要飛一飛啦"},{"start":2409.24,"end":2411.24,"text":"其他每個人的想法"},{"start":2411.24,"end":2413.24,"text":"或許不同可是我個人覺得"},{"start":2414.59,"end":2416.59,"text":"當然我們所有的利息都用了"},{"start":2417.37,"end":2419.37,"text":"當我們三讀通過的法案"},{"start":2419.37,"end":2421.37,"text":"行政院長可以不復述"},{"start":2423.31,"end":2425.31,"text":"這不是因為法律行政"},{"start":2425.31,"end":2427.31,"text":"台灣最喜歡講的是"},{"start":2427.31,"end":2429.31,"text":"台灣的民主輸出到全世界"},{"start":2429.31,"end":2431.31,"text":"多了不起"},{"start":2431.3,"end":2433.3,"text":"怎麼穿牛都沒關係可是大家看得到"},{"start":2434.27,"end":2436.27,"text":"全世界的民主國家"},{"start":2436.27,"end":2438.27,"text":"都是依法行政"},{"start":2438.27,"end":2440.27,"text":"依立法部門"},{"start":2440.27,"end":2442.27,"text":"修過三讀通過的法案行政"},{"start":2443.21,"end":2445.21,"text":"只有讀讀我們中華民國這個地方"},{"start":2446.77,"end":2448.77,"text":"我們中華民國的行政院長"},{"start":2448.77,"end":2450.77,"text":"居然可以對"},{"start":2451.9,"end":2453.9,"text":"立法院三讀通過的法案"},{"start":2455.97,"end":2457.97,"text":"選擇性的接受"},{"start":2457.94,"end":2459.94,"text":"比如說我們上個禮拜才通過未來的帳戶"},{"start":2462.04,"end":2464.04,"text":"對小孩子很好啊"},{"start":2464.04,"end":2466.04,"text":"對我們的這樣的提高生育率也有幫助啊"},{"start":2466.04,"end":2468.04,"text":"他不要為什麼"},{"start":2468.83,"end":2470.83,"text":"因為賴清德家嘛"},{"start":2471.27,"end":2473.27,"text":"然後呢再加更多嘛不行"},{"start":2474.02,"end":2476.02,"text":"只有他可以加滿我們不能加滿"},{"start":2476.77,"end":2478.77,"text":"現在我們設計不是這樣子"},{"start":2478.77,"end":2480.77,"text":"所以"},{"start":2480.37,"end":2482.37,"text":"我覺得附屬權"},{"start":2482.37,"end":2484.37,"text":"大家都了解當初的設計"},{"start":2484.37,"end":2486.37,"text":"是針對總統"},{"start":2486.22,"end":2488.22,"text":"到現在為止也只有一位"},{"start":2489.09,"end":2491.09,"text":"一位總統李登輝的時候好不尊用過"},{"start":2492.86,"end":2494.86,"text":"因為蔣仲林的事件他們也附屬"},{"start":2494.86,"end":2496.86,"text":"其他的行政院長沒有人用過"},{"start":2497.85,"end":2499.85,"text":"但是我們現在的行政院長"},{"start":2499.85,"end":2501.85,"text":"變本加厲對所有的案子"},{"start":2503.74,"end":2505.74,"text":"挑三檢四"},{"start":2505.87,"end":2507.87,"text":"各位我們就可以看得到"},{"start":2507.87,"end":2509.87,"text":"現在行政院長已經把自己"},{"start":2509.87,"end":2511.87,"text":"封為立法院的太上皇"},{"start":2514.56,"end":2516.56,"text":"立法院通過了深度法案"},{"start":2516.82,"end":2518.82,"text":"要他"},{"start":2518.44,"end":2520.44,"text":"點頭他才是"},{"start":2520.68,"end":2522.68,"text":"立法院長沒有這麼大啦"},{"start":2522.68,"end":2524.68,"text":"他沒有名義他的名義就一個賴清德"},{"start":2524.68,"end":2526.68,"text":"我們的名義是全國"},{"start":2526.68,"end":2528.68,"text":"的2300萬人的名義"},{"start":2530.49,"end":2532.49,"text":"我們通過了法案他用選擇式的來"},{"start":2532.49,"end":2534.49,"text":"因此"},{"start":2535.28,"end":2537.28,"text":"我的法案的重點在於"},{"start":2537.63,"end":2539.63,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":2539.21,"end":2541.21,"text":"萬事莫如"},{"start":2541.21,"end":2543.21,"text":"非互隔奎同一群"},{"start":2544.07,"end":2546.07,"text":"來的重要"},{"start":2546.07,"end":2548.07,"text":"這一條是重中之重"},{"start":2548.07,"end":2550.07,"text":"這一條可以讓行政院長"},{"start":2550.07,"end":2552.07,"text":"有名義基礎"},{"start":2552.07,"end":2554.07,"text":"這一條可以讓"},{"start":2554.13,"end":2556.13,"text":"我們立法院可以"},{"start":2556.13,"end":2558.13,"text":"制約可以制衡"},{"start":2558.13,"end":2560.13,"text":"可以監督"},{"start":2560.49,"end":2562.49,"text":"有權無責"},{"start":2563.02,"end":2565.02,"text":"的"},{"start":2563.73,"end":2565.73,"text":"超級大總統"},{"start":2565.39,"end":2567.39,"text":"老實不可濟講"},{"start":2566.79,"end":2568.79,"text":"現在只要選一個其他的都不重要"},{"start":2569.98,"end":2571.98,"text":"只要選一個總統"},{"start":2571.81,"end":2573.81,"text":"總統就變成皇帝"},{"start":2574.43,"end":2576.43,"text":"所以我們要等選皇帝"},{"start":2576.43,"end":2578.43,"text":"講一個人"},{"start":2578.72,"end":2580.72,"text":"這是很悲哀的事情"},{"start":2580.72,"end":2582.72,"text":"所以我的重點就是在於"},{"start":2582.38,"end":2584.38,"text":"我的提案修憲提案就是"},{"start":2584.38,"end":2586.38,"text":"非互隔奎同一群"},{"start":2587.39,"end":2589.39,"text":"這應該是重中之重"},{"start":2589.39,"end":2591.39,"text":"我也希望所有委員們能夠來支持"},{"start":2591.39,"end":2593.39,"text":"也希望各位專家學者能夠支持"},{"start":2593.39,"end":2595.39,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2596.54,"end":2598.54,"text":"謝謝LINE18委員"},{"start":2599.37,"end":2601.37,"text":"接下來我們是不是有請"},{"start":2601.37,"end":2603.37,"text":"姚夢昌助理教授"},{"start":2607.27,"end":2613.27,"text":"主席各位與會的專家學者以及我們在場的記者朋友"},{"start":2613.27,"end":2617.27,"text":"非常高興來參加今天的修憲委員會公聽會"},{"start":2618.1,"end":2620.1,"text":"2022年的1月13號"},{"start":2621.01,"end":2623.01,"text":"距離現在4年半"},{"start":2623.65,"end":2627.65,"text":"上一次我們立法院也是在同一個地方舉行了"},{"start":2628.04,"end":2630.04,"text":"今天是我們在中華民國公聽會"},{"start":2630.04,"end":2632.04,"text":"我兩次都參加"},{"start":2632.04,"end":2634.04,"text":"兩次都首位發言"},{"start":2634.04,"end":2636.04,"text":"我覺得非常榮幸"},{"start":2636.04,"end":2638.04,"text":"參與這樣的一個討論"},{"start":2638.04,"end":2640.04,"text":"對我們學者來講"},{"start":2640.04,"end":2642.04,"text":"作為一個中華民國的公民來講意義非凡"},{"start":2642.04,"end":2644.04,"text":"今天因為時間有限"},{"start":2644.04,"end":2646.04,"text":"我只能夠就原則性的部分"},{"start":2646.04,"end":2648.04,"text":"提出我的個人觀點"},{"start":2648.04,"end":2650.04,"text":"至於細節的部分"},{"start":2650.04,"end":2652.04,"text":"可能我們之後"},{"start":2652.04,"end":2654.04,"text":"在接下來的公聽會裡面"},{"start":2654.04,"end":2656.04,"text":"再繼續完整的闡述"},{"start":2656.04,"end":2658.04,"text":"我想我們談到修憲"},{"start":2661.54,"end":2663.54,"text":"立法院有修憲提案權"},{"start":2663.54,"end":2665.54,"text":"可是在行使這個權力的時候"},{"start":2665.54,"end":2669.54,"text":"它會受到立憲主義原則的約制"},{"start":2669.54,"end":2673.54,"text":"所以包含了程序必須要公開透明符合民主程序"},{"start":2673.54,"end":2681.54,"text":"同樣的修憲的內容也不能夠違反自由民主憲政次序的根本原則"},{"start":2681.54,"end":2683.54,"text":"這個我們都曉得"},{"start":2683.44,"end":2685.44,"text":"可是還有一點非常重要的是"},{"start":2685.44,"end":2687.44,"text":"我們在修憲的時候"},{"start":2687.44,"end":2689.44,"text":"也不能夠去"},{"start":2691.91,"end":2695.91,"text":"任意的去變動或是去衝擊"},{"start":2695.91,"end":2697.91,"text":"我們已經既定的憲政體制"},{"start":2697.91,"end":2699.91,"text":"特別是"},{"start":2700.18,"end":2702.18,"text":"大法官透過憲法解釋"},{"start":2702.18,"end":2704.18,"text":"透過憲法訴訟"},{"start":2704.18,"end":2708.18,"text":"的這種裁判所形成的原則"},{"start":2708.18,"end":2712.18,"text":"這一點我想我們都要彼此提醒"},{"start":2713.38,"end":2715.38,"text":"從上一次修憲2005年"},{"start":2717.19,"end":2719.19,"text":"之後"},{"start":2718.22,"end":2720.22,"text":"那其實呢"},{"start":2720.22,"end":2722.22,"text":"雖然在過去20年之間"},{"start":2722.22,"end":2724.22,"text":"我們並沒有修憲的提案完成"},{"start":2724.22,"end":2726.22,"text":"可是我們看到從第八屆"},{"start":2726.22,"end":2728.22,"text":"第九屆"},{"start":2728.22,"end":2730.22,"text":"第十屆的立法院"},{"start":2730.22,"end":2732.22,"text":"都有成立修憲委員會"},{"start":2732.22,"end":2736.22,"text":"而且提出了非常非常多的法案"},{"start":2736.82,"end":2738.82,"text":"那只可惜在第八屆第九屆"},{"start":2738.82,"end":2740.82,"text":"都沒有完成"},{"start":2741.68,"end":2743.68,"text":"最後的提案"},{"start":2743.68,"end":2745.68,"text":"在第十屆的時候"},{"start":2745.68,"end":2747.68,"text":"好不容易有一個案子"},{"start":2747.68,"end":2749.68,"text":"涉及到公民權行使年齡下降"},{"start":2749.68,"end":2751.68,"text":"這個案子"},{"start":2750.88,"end":2752.88,"text":"送出立法院"},{"start":2752.88,"end":2754.88,"text":"交付給全民進行公民複決"},{"start":2754.88,"end":2756.88,"text":"可惜後來沒有過"},{"start":2757.83,"end":2759.83,"text":"那沒有過大家都覺得很可惜"},{"start":2759.83,"end":2761.83,"text":"是不是我們在倡議"},{"start":2761.83,"end":2763.83,"text":"我們在跟民眾說明力道不夠"},{"start":2763.83,"end":2767.83,"text":"還是說人民其實對立法院的期待更大"},{"start":2767.83,"end":2769.83,"text":"他不要你隨便丟一盤小菜"},{"start":2769.83,"end":2773.83,"text":"就要說完成憲政改革"},{"start":2773.83,"end":2775.83,"text":"我想各式各樣的原因"},{"start":2775.83,"end":2777.83,"text":"可是我們從立法委員歷屆的努力"},{"start":2777.83,"end":2779.83,"text":"還有學者專家的關切"},{"start":2779.83,"end":2781.83,"text":"我們都可以看到"},{"start":2781.83,"end":2783.83,"text":"其實憲改的時刻"},{"start":2783.83,"end":2785.83,"text":"其實早就已經到了"},{"start":2785.83,"end":2789.83,"text":"那進行憲法的改革刻不容緩"},{"start":2789.83,"end":2793.83,"text":"那這也是剛剛賴世保委員提出的一個觀點"},{"start":2793.83,"end":2795.83,"text":"他說這個trigger了"},{"start":2795.83,"end":2799.83,"text":"啟動這次修憲跟廢除監察院有關"},{"start":2799.83,"end":2801.83,"text":"應該不止如此"},{"start":2801.83,"end":2803.83,"text":"因為在今年四月的時候"},{"start":2803.83,"end":2805.83,"text":"我也是來立法院參加公聽會"},{"start":2805.83,"end":2807.83,"text":"那時候再提到公民權的年齡下降"},{"start":2807.83,"end":2809.83,"text":"要不要透過修法"},{"start":2809.83,"end":2811.83,"text":"那其實與會許多專家都認為說"},{"start":2811.83,"end":2813.83,"text":"還是要透過修憲"},{"start":2813.83,"end":2815.83,"text":"所以我看到這個議案在其中"},{"start":2815.83,"end":2817.83,"text":"所以我想這一次修憲"},{"start":2819.39,"end":2821.39,"text":"我們應該要先處理"},{"start":2821.39,"end":2823.39,"text":"上一屆的未盡職業"},{"start":2823.39,"end":2825.39,"text":"也就是公民權的行使年齡下降的這個部分"},{"start":2825.39,"end":2827.39,"text":"這應該優先處理"},{"start":2827.39,"end":2829.39,"text":"那其次呢"},{"start":2829.78,"end":2833.78,"text":"廢除考監兩院五權改三權"},{"start":2833.78,"end":2835.78,"text":"這個議題應該要慎重以對"},{"start":2836.94,"end":2838.94,"text":"那我個人先講我的結論"},{"start":2838.94,"end":2840.94,"text":"我贊同"},{"start":2841.75,"end":2843.75,"text":"廢考監兩院"},{"start":2843.75,"end":2845.75,"text":"可是呢考試全跟了"},{"start":2847.4,"end":2851.4,"text":"監察權必須要好好的安置"},{"start":2851.4,"end":2853.4,"text":"所以不可能只是廢除考監兩院就結束"},{"start":2853.4,"end":2857.4,"text":"這會涉及到包含國會的改革"},{"start":2857.4,"end":2859.4,"text":"包含行政院的重組等等"},{"start":2859.4,"end":2861.4,"text":"那這個部分我想之後的專家"},{"start":2861.4,"end":2865.4,"text":"都會有非常卓越的意見提出"},{"start":2865.4,"end":2867.4,"text":"可是在完成修憲之前"},{"start":2867.4,"end":2869.4,"text":"我想有一個概念非常重要"},{"start":2869.4,"end":2871.4,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":2871.4,"end":2873.4,"text":"修憲不曉得什麼時候會完成"},{"start":2873.4,"end":2875.4,"text":"可是憲政體制憲政次序"},{"start":2875.4,"end":2881.4,"text":"不能夠有一時一刻中斷或是被單眼"},{"start":2881.4,"end":2883.4,"text":"因此我也是呼籲了"},{"start":2883.4,"end":2885.4,"text":"在監察院"},{"start":2886.18,"end":2888.18,"text":"的這個職權包含監察權"},{"start":2888.18,"end":2890.18,"text":"到底要怎麼安排"},{"start":2890.18,"end":2892.18,"text":"還沒有決定之前"},{"start":2892.18,"end":2894.18,"text":"把監察院做一個憲政機關"},{"start":2894.18,"end":2896.18,"text":"還是要讓他能夠"},{"start":2896.18,"end":2898.18,"text":"不管是在人事同意"},{"start":2898.18,"end":2900.18,"text":"在預算的審議上面"},{"start":2900.18,"end":2902.18,"text":"還是要讓憲政機關能夠運作"},{"start":2902.18,"end":2906.18,"text":"那對於18歲公民權的這個部分"},{"start":2906.18,"end":2908.18,"text":"我個人建議"},{"start":2910.01,"end":2912.01,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":2912.01,"end":2916.01,"text":"這個憲改是針對憲法第130條的規定"},{"start":2916.01,"end":2918.01,"text":"那我想我們在修憲的時候"},{"start":2918.01,"end":2920.01,"text":"其實應該勇敢的"},{"start":2920.01,"end":2922.01,"text":"就憲法的本文去做修改"},{"start":2922.01,"end":2926.01,"text":"應該優先修改憲法的本文"},{"start":2927.35,"end":2929.35,"text":"除非不得已"},{"start":2929.35,"end":2931.35,"text":"然後我們再去修"},{"start":2931.35,"end":2933.35,"text":"憲法徵修條文的相關條款"},{"start":2933.63,"end":2935.63,"text":"那有關政府體制的部分"},{"start":2935.63,"end":2939.63,"text":"我簡單把我的觀點提出來了"},{"start":2939.81,"end":2941.81,"text":"不完整"},{"start":2941.81,"end":2943.81,"text":"但是我想這個原則非常清楚"},{"start":2943.81,"end":2945.81,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":2945.81,"end":2947.81,"text":"政府體制應該朝向總統制的方向"},{"start":2947.81,"end":2949.81,"text":"來設計"},{"start":2949.41,"end":2951.41,"text":"所以有關內閣制的提議"},{"start":2951.41,"end":2953.41,"text":"既然我們在"},{"start":2953.41,"end":2955.41,"text":"大概上個世紀的憲政"},{"start":2955.41,"end":2957.41,"text":"這樣的一個"},{"start":2959.79,"end":2961.79,"text":"歷來的修憲當中"},{"start":2961.79,"end":2963.79,"text":"大概已經朝向總統制"},{"start":2963.79,"end":2967.79,"text":"然後我想經過20年的一個實踐"},{"start":2967.79,"end":2969.79,"text":"那這個總統制"},{"start":2969.79,"end":2971.79,"text":"是"},{"start":2971.04,"end":2973.04,"text":"應該繼續為此"},{"start":2973.04,"end":2975.04,"text":"那第二個部分就是"},{"start":2975.04,"end":2977.04,"text":"有關考監兩院廢除之後"},{"start":2977.04,"end":2979.04,"text":"那考監兩權呢"},{"start":2979.99,"end":2981.99,"text":"不可以廢"},{"start":2981.99,"end":2983.99,"text":"可是要放在哪裡呢"},{"start":2983.99,"end":2985.99,"text":"我認為還是要維持一定的"},{"start":2985.99,"end":2987.99,"text":"獨立性"},{"start":2986.28,"end":2988.28,"text":"所以考試權可以放在"},{"start":2988.28,"end":2990.28,"text":"行政院成立特別的"},{"start":2990.28,"end":2992.28,"text":"委員會來執行"},{"start":2992.28,"end":2994.28,"text":"那監察權呢"},{"start":2994.28,"end":2996.28,"text":"監察權應該回歸國會"},{"start":2996.79,"end":2998.79,"text":"可是考慮到"},{"start":2998.79,"end":3000.79,"text":"立法院"},{"start":3000.79,"end":3002.79,"text":"我們單一國會"},{"start":3002.79,"end":3004.79,"text":"體制下"},{"start":3004.34,"end":3006.34,"text":"他已經有非常強大的立法權"},{"start":3006.34,"end":3008.34,"text":"以及相關的權限"},{"start":3008.34,"end":3010.34,"text":"如果再給他監察院的權限"},{"start":3010.34,"end":3012.34,"text":"那這個是在民主國家裡面"},{"start":3012.34,"end":3014.34,"text":"沒有辦法想像"},{"start":3013.84,"end":3015.84,"text":"所以民主國家不管是在歐洲"},{"start":3015.84,"end":3017.84,"text":"或是在美國"},{"start":3017.84,"end":3019.84,"text":"他是採取兩院制"},{"start":3019.84,"end":3021.84,"text":"所以我會建議以美國的國會"},{"start":3021.84,"end":3023.84,"text":"作為參考"},{"start":3023.84,"end":3025.84,"text":"立法院維持現在的權限"},{"start":3025.84,"end":3027.84,"text":"就像是美國的眾議院"},{"start":3027.84,"end":3029.84,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":3029.84,"end":3031.84,"text":"監察院"},{"start":3031.84,"end":3033.84,"text":"給他成為參議院"},{"start":3033.84,"end":3035.84,"text":"那賦予他一定的民主基礎"},{"start":3035.84,"end":3037.84,"text":"那使他具備有正當性"},{"start":3037.84,"end":3039.84,"text":"那還有一個單位"},{"start":3039.84,"end":3041.84,"text":"我們可能忘記"},{"start":3041.84,"end":3043.84,"text":"國家人權委員會"},{"start":3043.84,"end":3045.84,"text":"那這個部分我會建議"},{"start":3045.84,"end":3047.84,"text":"改立總統府"},{"start":3047.84,"end":3049.84,"text":"但是應該在憲法"},{"start":3049.84,"end":3051.84,"text":"或法律上明確規定"},{"start":3051.84,"end":3053.84,"text":"其職權"},{"start":3053.84,"end":3055.84,"text":"而這個職權行使必須要符合巴黎原則"},{"start":3055.84,"end":3057.84,"text":"這個才能夠確保"},{"start":3057.84,"end":3059.84,"text":"國家人權委員會的"},{"start":3059.84,"end":3061.84,"text":"獨立性以及他的專業"},{"start":3061.84,"end":3063.84,"text":"那最後我期待"},{"start":3063.84,"end":3065.84,"text":"我們本屆的立法院能夠為台灣"},{"start":3065.84,"end":3067.84,"text":"的憲政改革做出"},{"start":3067.84,"end":3069.84,"text":"更大的努力跟貢獻"},{"start":3069.84,"end":3071.84,"text":"非常欽佩我們民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3071.84,"end":3073.84,"text":"率先"},{"start":3073.84,"end":3075.84,"text":"作為一個"},{"start":3076.24,"end":3078.24,"text":"榜樣來提出"},{"start":3078.24,"end":3080.24,"text":"這樣的一個構想"},{"start":3080.24,"end":3082.24,"text":"也著實的去推動"},{"start":3082.24,"end":3084.24,"text":"認中道遠"},{"start":3084.24,"end":3086.24,"text":"那希望我們全體立法委員"},{"start":3086.24,"end":3088.24,"text":"前輩都能夠"},{"start":3088.24,"end":3090.24,"text":"持續努力 以上"},{"start":3092.46,"end":3094.46,"text":"感謝姚助理教授"},{"start":3094.46,"end":3096.46,"text":"接下來我們是請陳志華陳教授"},{"start":3096.46,"end":3098.46,"text":"發言"},{"start":3112.86,"end":3114.86,"text":"主席"},{"start":3114.86,"end":3116.86,"text":"各位大院的委員"},{"start":3116.86,"end":3118.86,"text":"各位學界的"},{"start":3118.86,"end":3120.86,"text":"先進 各位女士 各位先生"},{"start":3120.86,"end":3122.86,"text":"今天"},{"start":3122.86,"end":3124.86,"text":"受黨團的邀請來"},{"start":3124.86,"end":3126.86,"text":"參加大院的公聽會"},{"start":3126.86,"end":3128.86,"text":"個人感到非常榮幸"},{"start":3128.86,"end":3130.86,"text":"那首先"},{"start":3130.86,"end":3132.86,"text":"我想就今天"},{"start":3133.67,"end":3135.67,"text":"大院提出的修憲案"},{"start":3135.67,"end":3137.67,"text":"九個案來看"},{"start":3137.67,"end":3139.67,"text":"基本上都是很重要"},{"start":3139.67,"end":3141.67,"text":"其中四個案子是"},{"start":3141.67,"end":3143.67,"text":"跟"},{"start":3145.31,"end":3147.31,"text":"整個政府的體制有關"},{"start":3147.31,"end":3149.31,"text":"那五個案子是跟人權"},{"start":3149.31,"end":3151.31,"text":"方面有關"},{"start":3151.31,"end":3153.31,"text":"當然公民"},{"start":3153.31,"end":3155.31,"text":"18歲 降為18歲"},{"start":3155.31,"end":3157.31,"text":"這個有點老案重提"},{"start":3157.31,"end":3159.31,"text":"然後"},{"start":3159.31,"end":3161.31,"text":"我不曉得"},{"start":3161.31,"end":3163.31,"text":"是不是這一次的公投"},{"start":3163.31,"end":3165.31,"text":"至少在題目上能夠"},{"start":3165.31,"end":3167.31,"text":"簡化一點"},{"start":3167.31,"end":3169.31,"text":"不要像上一次公投"},{"start":3169.31,"end":3171.31,"text":"那個題目實在是太冗長"},{"start":3171.31,"end":3173.31,"text":"一般人也看不太懂"},{"start":3173.31,"end":3175.31,"text":"那我們進入"},{"start":3175.31,"end":3177.31,"text":"今天跟大家"},{"start":3177.31,"end":3179.31,"text":"就教的一些問題"},{"start":3179.31,"end":3181.31,"text":"首先第一個就是"},{"start":3181.31,"end":3183.31,"text":"這個提案第一案"},{"start":3183.31,"end":3185.31,"text":"政府體制 我當然贊同"},{"start":3185.31,"end":3187.31,"text":"恢復立法院的"},{"start":3187.31,"end":3189.31,"text":"隔閡人民統一權 不過這是一個"},{"start":3189.31,"end":3191.31,"text":"我們憲法上的關鍵"},{"start":3191.31,"end":3193.31,"text":"而這個是以前"},{"start":3194.35,"end":3196.35,"text":"我們"},{"start":3195.9,"end":3197.9,"text":"當然不管怎麼樣 修憲之前"},{"start":3197.9,"end":3199.9,"text":"特別是1997"},{"start":3199.9,"end":3201.9,"text":"修憲之前"},{"start":3201.62,"end":3203.62,"text":"一個很重要的"},{"start":3203.62,"end":3205.62,"text":"憲法上的一個制度"},{"start":3205.62,"end":3207.62,"text":"一個內閣制的特徵"},{"start":3207.62,"end":3209.62,"text":"當然今天能不能"},{"start":3209.62,"end":3211.62,"text":"再走回去"},{"start":3212.14,"end":3214.14,"text":"我是抱著很大的懷疑"},{"start":3214.14,"end":3216.14,"text":"那今天我們的總統"},{"start":3216.14,"end":3218.14,"text":"直接民選"},{"start":3218.14,"end":3220.14,"text":"而且又兼任黨主席"},{"start":3220.14,"end":3222.14,"text":"大家習慣上總是"},{"start":3222.14,"end":3224.14,"text":"覺得總統應該有所作為"},{"start":3224.14,"end":3226.14,"text":"甚至於是一個決策者"},{"start":3227.75,"end":3229.75,"text":"在這樣的一個"},{"start":3229.75,"end":3231.75,"text":"民意的觀念下"},{"start":3231.75,"end":3233.75,"text":"我們要再走回去"},{"start":3233.75,"end":3235.75,"text":"的確 我是覺得有困難"},{"start":3235.75,"end":3237.75,"text":"但基本上我很同意"},{"start":3237.75,"end":3239.75,"text":"這樣的一個論點"},{"start":3239.76,"end":3241.76,"text":"不過在資料上"},{"start":3241.76,"end":3243.76,"text":"我覺得也很有意思"},{"start":3244.98,"end":3246.98,"text":"在提案的這個"},{"start":3246.98,"end":3248.98,"text":"案有裡面提到說"},{"start":3248.98,"end":3250.98,"text":"為了讓立法院有"},{"start":3250.98,"end":3252.98,"text":"更好的基礎"},{"start":3252.98,"end":3254.98,"text":"來命令行政院長"},{"start":3254.98,"end":3256.98,"text":"對他負責"},{"start":3256.98,"end":3258.98,"text":"那我覺得是不是應該"},{"start":3258.98,"end":3260.98,"text":"針對這兩年我們看到"},{"start":3260.98,"end":3262.98,"text":"行政院"},{"start":3262.47,"end":3264.47,"text":"竟然不附屬"},{"start":3264.47,"end":3266.47,"text":"不執行立法院"},{"start":3266.47,"end":3268.47,"text":"通過的法律我覺得是在"},{"start":3268.47,"end":3270.47,"text":"這令人遺憾"},{"start":3270.47,"end":3272.47,"text":"如果能夠把這兩年"},{"start":3272.47,"end":3274.47,"text":"這種問題列入修憲案"},{"start":3275.13,"end":3277.13,"text":"太好了 太有意義了"},{"start":3277.13,"end":3279.13,"text":"那不管怎麼樣"},{"start":3279.15,"end":3283.15,"text":"這也是一個很重要的題目"},{"start":3283.15,"end":3285.15,"text":"我覺得我們的提案好像都"},{"start":3285.15,"end":3287.15,"text":"時間都太久了"},{"start":3286.93,"end":3288.93,"text":"太久了"},{"start":3288.06,"end":3290.06,"text":"太老了 太早了"},{"start":3290.06,"end":3292.06,"text":"像第一案是"},{"start":3291.8,"end":3293.8,"text":"兩年前"},{"start":3293.25,"end":3295.25,"text":"提出來"},{"start":3295.25,"end":3297.25,"text":"113年4月"},{"start":3297.25,"end":3299.25,"text":"我覺得這兩年的一些憲政"},{"start":3299.25,"end":3301.25,"text":"現象其實也可以納入"},{"start":3301.25,"end":3303.25,"text":"修憲的議題"},{"start":3303.09,"end":3305.09,"text":"那另外國情報告"},{"start":3305.09,"end":3307.09,"text":"我覺得這個資料"},{"start":3307.09,"end":3309.09,"text":"寫得非常好"},{"start":3309.09,"end":3311.09,"text":"那用詞文字上也都"},{"start":3311.09,"end":3313.09,"text":"改善很多"},{"start":3313.09,"end":3315.09,"text":"就是比較溫和"},{"start":3315.09,"end":3317.09,"text":"沒那麼尖銳"},{"start":3317.84,"end":3319.84,"text":"到立法院的國情報告"},{"start":3319.84,"end":3321.84,"text":"立法院可以檢討國事"},{"start":3321.84,"end":3323.84,"text":"提供建言"},{"start":3323.84,"end":3325.84,"text":"我覺得這種文字都修正了很多"},{"start":3325.84,"end":3327.84,"text":"那我也特別"},{"start":3327.84,"end":3329.84,"text":"佩服韓院長"},{"start":3329.84,"end":3331.84,"text":"他說"},{"start":3331.59,"end":3333.59,"text":"總統的國情報告不要超過"},{"start":3333.59,"end":3335.59,"text":"兩個鐘頭"},{"start":3335.59,"end":3337.59,"text":"太棒了"},{"start":3337.59,"end":3339.59,"text":"這種意見我覺得"},{"start":3339.59,"end":3341.59,"text":"很有人道精神"},{"start":3341.59,"end":3343.59,"text":"進步到總統的健康問題"},{"start":3344.64,"end":3346.64,"text":"那我接著我想"},{"start":3346.64,"end":3348.64,"text":"我要特別提出來"},{"start":3348.64,"end":3350.64,"text":"我認為考兼兩院"},{"start":3350.64,"end":3352.64,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":3352.64,"end":3354.64,"text":"廢除"},{"start":3354.64,"end":3356.64,"text":"當然這個資料裡頭"},{"start":3356.64,"end":3358.64,"text":"像楊太順教授的資料"},{"start":3358.64,"end":3360.64,"text":"已經很完備了"},{"start":3360.64,"end":3362.64,"text":"那我都很佩服他的論點"},{"start":3362.64,"end":3364.64,"text":"但基本上"},{"start":3364.64,"end":3366.64,"text":"我是贊同這兩院應該"},{"start":3367.81,"end":3369.81,"text":"好好思考他的何去何從"},{"start":3369.81,"end":3371.81,"text":"那我們有時候"},{"start":3371.81,"end":3373.81,"text":"看到民國"},{"start":3373.81,"end":3375.81,"text":"17年我們才有五院"},{"start":3376.41,"end":3378.41,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣"},{"start":3378.41,"end":3380.41,"text":"孫中山先生的學說"},{"start":3380.41,"end":3382.41,"text":"在他生前是沒有"},{"start":3382.41,"end":3384.41,"text":"他沒有看到"},{"start":3384.41,"end":3386.41,"text":"他的理論付出實現"},{"start":3386.41,"end":3388.41,"text":"17年五院"},{"start":3388.41,"end":3390.41,"text":"其實也是殉職時期"},{"start":3390.41,"end":3392.41,"text":"一直到民國36年才行憲"},{"start":3392.41,"end":3394.41,"text":"這中間也耽擱了很久"},{"start":3394.41,"end":3396.41,"text":"那不管怎麼樣透過80"},{"start":3396.41,"end":3398.41,"text":"民國80年以後的"},{"start":3398.41,"end":3400.41,"text":"七四修憲"},{"start":3400.41,"end":3402.41,"text":"考試監察兩院已經"},{"start":3402.41,"end":3404.41,"text":"性質窘逸"},{"start":3404.41,"end":3406.41,"text":"質詮也都更動太大了"},{"start":3406.41,"end":3408.41,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":3408.53,"end":3410.53,"text":"監察院不再是民意機關"},{"start":3411.16,"end":3413.16,"text":"那我的意思就是說"},{"start":3413.16,"end":3415.16,"text":"我們還"},{"start":3415.16,"end":3417.16,"text":"維持五院有這個必要嗎"},{"start":3417.16,"end":3419.16,"text":"我們反觀像英國"},{"start":3419.16,"end":3421.16,"text":"美國這些內閣制總統制"},{"start":3421.16,"end":3423.16,"text":"代表的國家"},{"start":3423.16,"end":3425.16,"text":"他們並沒有什麼"},{"start":3425.16,"end":3427.16,"text":"考試監察這種問題"},{"start":3428.24,"end":3430.24,"text":"但是"},{"start":3429.57,"end":3431.57,"text":"卡特總統"},{"start":3431.57,"end":3433.57,"text":"他的文官改革是"},{"start":3434.14,"end":3436.14,"text":"世界上各國所"},{"start":3436.14,"end":3438.14,"text":"所矚目的"},{"start":3438.14,"end":3440.14,"text":"那我們看美國克林頓"},{"start":3440.14,"end":3442.14,"text":"川普"},{"start":3442.14,"end":3444.14,"text":"都面臨國會的彈劾"},{"start":3444.14,"end":3446.14,"text":"我們沒有聽到這些國家有什麼"},{"start":3446.14,"end":3448.14,"text":"人事行政"},{"start":3448.14,"end":3450.14,"text":"那個監察機關"},{"start":3450.14,"end":3452.14,"text":"的問題從來都沒有聽到"},{"start":3452.14,"end":3454.14,"text":"也沒有說需要在"},{"start":3454.14,"end":3456.14,"text":"三權之外"},{"start":3456.42,"end":3458.42,"text":"增設第四第五權"},{"start":3458.42,"end":3460.42,"text":"沒有聽說過"},{"start":3460.42,"end":3462.42,"text":"那我在這裡要提出來的是"},{"start":3462.42,"end":3464.42,"text":"我覺得考試監察"},{"start":3464.42,"end":3466.42,"text":"權廢除"},{"start":3467.47,"end":3469.47,"text":"或者說是五權保留"},{"start":3469.47,"end":3471.47,"text":"但是不叫五院"},{"start":3471.94,"end":3473.94,"text":"考試權可以到行政院"},{"start":3476.03,"end":3478.03,"text":"那監察權可以到"},{"start":3478.03,"end":3480.03,"text":"立法院還是五權"},{"start":3480.03,"end":3482.03,"text":"那我想"},{"start":3482.03,"end":3484.03,"text":"各位知道韓國"},{"start":3484.03,"end":3486.03,"text":"大概很少數有監察院的國家"},{"start":3486.03,"end":3488.03,"text":"那個查是這個查"},{"start":3488.11,"end":3490.11,"text":"不過他們"},{"start":3489.39,"end":3491.39,"text":"對"},{"start":3490.56,"end":3492.56,"text":"我不知道是不是學習我們台灣"},{"start":3492.56,"end":3494.56,"text":"因為我念書的時候"},{"start":3494.56,"end":3496.56,"text":"很多外籍的"},{"start":3496.56,"end":3498.56,"text":"研究生幾乎都"},{"start":3498.56,"end":3500.56,"text":"都是韓國"},{"start":3500.56,"end":3502.56,"text":"他們是喜歡我們的監察院我不知道"},{"start":3502.56,"end":3504.56,"text":"但是後來他們民國"},{"start":3504.56,"end":3506.56,"text":"80年以後他們"},{"start":3506.56,"end":3508.56,"text":"我們憲改的時候是不是他們也"},{"start":3508.56,"end":3510.56,"text":"學習我們憲改"},{"start":3510.56,"end":3512.56,"text":"我不知道但他們監察院也改了"},{"start":3512.56,"end":3514.56,"text":"審計權"},{"start":3514.56,"end":3516.56,"text":"也不在歷數在國會"},{"start":3516.56,"end":3518.56,"text":"改"},{"start":3518.22,"end":3520.22,"text":"法規國會對不起"},{"start":3520.22,"end":3522.22,"text":"那監察院還"},{"start":3522.22,"end":3524.22,"text":"還在"},{"start":3524.22,"end":3526.22,"text":"但是他們都改更動了"},{"start":3526.22,"end":3528.22,"text":"我們還維持現狀我覺得"},{"start":3528.22,"end":3530.22,"text":"值得商榷特別是調查"},{"start":3530.22,"end":3532.22,"text":"權"},{"start":3531.5,"end":3533.5,"text":"那個審計"},{"start":3533.5,"end":3535.5,"text":"我覺得要好好思考"},{"start":3535.78,"end":3537.78,"text":"當然"},{"start":3537.78,"end":3539.78,"text":"不管怎麼樣我要說明"},{"start":3539.78,"end":3541.78,"text":"就是政府機關都應該"},{"start":3541.78,"end":3543.78,"text":"有個隸屬系統都應該"},{"start":3543.78,"end":3545.78,"text":"在一個組織"},{"start":3545.78,"end":3547.78,"text":"系落當中去運作"},{"start":3547.78,"end":3549.78,"text":"以前國民大會在的時候全能區分"},{"start":3549.78,"end":3551.78,"text":"國民大會掌"},{"start":3551.78,"end":3553.78,"text":"掌控監督五院五權"},{"start":3553.78,"end":3555.78,"text":"但今天沒有國民大會的"},{"start":3555.78,"end":3557.78,"text":"我們透過抽象的民意"},{"start":3557.78,"end":3559.78,"text":"機關透過選舉監督"},{"start":3559.78,"end":3561.78,"text":"行政立法"},{"start":3561.78,"end":3563.78,"text":"司法當然司法是獨立"},{"start":3563.78,"end":3565.78,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣"},{"start":3565.78,"end":3567.78,"text":"這個系落之下考試"},{"start":3567.78,"end":3569.78,"text":"監察歷數在立法監督"},{"start":3569.78,"end":3571.78,"text":"還是有一個"},{"start":3571.88,"end":3573.88,"text":"監督的一個組織"},{"start":3573.88,"end":3575.88,"text":"系落"},{"start":3575.88,"end":3577.88,"text":"我覺得前中央銀行"},{"start":3577.88,"end":3579.88,"text":"總裁彭懷南"},{"start":3579.88,"end":3581.88,"text":"意見非常好"},{"start":3581.88,"end":3583.88,"text":"中央銀行不是獨立管制"},{"start":3583.88,"end":3585.88,"text":"機構他是行政"},{"start":3585.88,"end":3587.88,"text":"機關他要在各部會"},{"start":3587.88,"end":3589.88,"text":"中間互動"},{"start":3589.88,"end":3591.88,"text":"而且跟政府機關"},{"start":3591.88,"end":3593.88,"text":"都有往來而保持獨立"},{"start":3593.88,"end":3595.88,"text":"靠著依法行政專業"},{"start":3595.88,"end":3597.88,"text":"而保持獨立我覺得"},{"start":3597.88,"end":3599.88,"text":"這樣的觀點可以應用在考試"},{"start":3599.88,"end":3601.88,"text":"監察兩院的改革上面"},{"start":3601.88,"end":3603.88,"text":"以上就叫各位謝謝"},{"start":3607.62,"end":3609.62,"text":"感謝陳教授"},{"start":3609.68,"end":3611.68,"text":"接下來我們是不是請林建志"},{"start":3611.68,"end":3613.68,"text":"林研究員上台發言"},{"start":3626.01,"end":3628.01,"text":"主席"},{"start":3628.01,"end":3630.01,"text":"各位委員還有各位與會者"},{"start":3630.01,"end":3632.01,"text":"今天很榮幸可以來參加這場公聽會"},{"start":3632.01,"end":3634.01,"text":"因為時間"},{"start":3634.01,"end":3636.01,"text":"很有限的關係"},{"start":3636.01,"end":3638.01,"text":"所以我想我就直接先針對"},{"start":3638.01,"end":3640.01,"text":"今天的幾個提案"},{"start":3640.01,"end":3642.01,"text":"進行我的報告"},{"start":3642.01,"end":3644.01,"text":"同樣因為時間關係"},{"start":3644.01,"end":3646.01,"text":"所以我就先講結論好了"},{"start":3646.01,"end":3648.01,"text":"我先從考監開始好了"},{"start":3648.14,"end":3650.14,"text":"我個人原則上我是贊成費考監的"},{"start":3650.14,"end":3652.14,"text":"那但是這兩個地方"},{"start":3652.14,"end":3654.14,"text":"又要分開處理"},{"start":3654.14,"end":3656.14,"text":"首先是就考試院的部分"},{"start":3656.14,"end":3658.14,"text":"我先講一些大家可能覺得爭議性比較小的部分"},{"start":3658.14,"end":3660.14,"text":"首先就考試院的部分"},{"start":3660.14,"end":3662.14,"text":"我覺得考試院像剛剛有很多先進"},{"start":3662.14,"end":3664.14,"text":"也提到他其實是可以"},{"start":3664.14,"end":3666.14,"text":"雖然考試是很重要的事情"},{"start":3666.14,"end":3668.14,"text":"但他其實不需要自己成立一個院"},{"start":3668.14,"end":3670.14,"text":"所以把他放在行政院底下"},{"start":3670.14,"end":3672.14,"text":"就可以了"},{"start":3672.14,"end":3674.14,"text":"那如果有些委員擔心或是有些"},{"start":3674.14,"end":3676.14,"text":"民眾擔心說這樣會不會"},{"start":3677.46,"end":3679.46,"text":"失去他的公平性的話"},{"start":3679.46,"end":3681.46,"text":"那我們可以在人事方面"},{"start":3681.46,"end":3683.46,"text":"就是人事任命的部分做調整或是做設計"},{"start":3683.46,"end":3685.46,"text":"譬如說你即使放在行政院底下"},{"start":3685.46,"end":3687.46,"text":"你還是可以透過"},{"start":3687.46,"end":3689.46,"text":"譬如說讓國會參與方式"},{"start":3689.46,"end":3691.46,"text":"行使同意權或其他方式來進行參與"},{"start":3691.46,"end":3693.46,"text":"所以我覺得這個是相對來講"},{"start":3693.46,"end":3695.46,"text":"問題比較小的就是考試院我認為是可以費的"},{"start":3695.46,"end":3697.46,"text":"那只是他的權責就移到行政院底下"},{"start":3697.46,"end":3699.46,"text":"那至於其他"},{"start":3699.46,"end":3701.46,"text":"那人事擔心中立的問題的話"},{"start":3701.46,"end":3703.46,"text":"就用人事方面來解決"},{"start":3703.46,"end":3705.46,"text":"就可以了"},{"start":3705.46,"end":3707.46,"text":"那再來是監察院的部分"},{"start":3707.46,"end":3709.46,"text":"那監察院事情比較多"},{"start":3709.46,"end":3711.46,"text":"我先從比較"},{"start":3711.46,"end":3713.46,"text":"我覺得沒有爭議的部分"},{"start":3713.46,"end":3715.46,"text":"第一個就是審計權"},{"start":3715.46,"end":3717.46,"text":"因為監察院幾個權利嘛"},{"start":3717.46,"end":3719.46,"text":"他主要就是審計權,糾正糾舉彈劾"},{"start":3719.46,"end":3721.46,"text":"以及為了行使這些權利"},{"start":3721.46,"end":3723.46,"text":"所以他有一些有別於國會的調查權這幾個部分"},{"start":3723.46,"end":3725.46,"text":"那從審計權的部分來講"},{"start":3725.46,"end":3727.46,"text":"我想應該多數人也會同意審計權"},{"start":3727.46,"end":3729.46,"text":"廢掉"},{"start":3729.46,"end":3731.46,"text":"就是監察院廢掉之後審計權應該就放在立法院底下"},{"start":3731.46,"end":3733.46,"text":"因為立法院就是"},{"start":3733.46,"end":3735.46,"text":"監察院是監察院的一個部分"},{"start":3735.46,"end":3737.46,"text":"那一樣也是"},{"start":3737.46,"end":3739.46,"text":"如果擔心任何有什麼"},{"start":3739.24,"end":3741.24,"text":"就是不中立的問題的話"},{"start":3741.24,"end":3743.24,"text":"那這也是可以透過"},{"start":3743.24,"end":3745.24,"text":"人事任命的方式的設計來進行調整"},{"start":3745.24,"end":3747.24,"text":"所以就跟剛剛的考試院"},{"start":3747.24,"end":3749.24,"text":"可以放在行政院底下"},{"start":3749.24,"end":3751.24,"text":"然後審計權"},{"start":3752.19,"end":3754.19,"text":"應該放在立法院底下,我覺得相對來講都比較沒有爭議"},{"start":3754.19,"end":3756.19,"text":"其實接下來比較有爭議的就是"},{"start":3756.19,"end":3758.19,"text":"糾正糾舉彈劾"},{"start":3758.19,"end":3760.19,"text":"以及因為行使這些權利"},{"start":3760.19,"end":3762.19,"text":"所以監察院在他的監察法裡面"},{"start":3762.19,"end":3764.19,"text":"有規定說他的調查權要如何行使"},{"start":3764.19,"end":3766.19,"text":"以及在廢掉監察院之後"},{"start":3766.19,"end":3768.19,"text":"這些權利"},{"start":3768.19,"end":3770.19,"text":"以及在廢掉監察院之後"},{"start":3770.19,"end":3772.19,"text":"這些權利"},{"start":3771.41,"end":3773.41,"text":"合據合成的問題"},{"start":3773.33,"end":3775.33,"text":"那在這裡我覺得要"},{"start":3775.33,"end":3777.33,"text":"首先要注意一下就是我們過去很常講"},{"start":3777.33,"end":3779.33,"text":"就是國會的監察權"},{"start":3779.33,"end":3781.33,"text":"也就是立法院的監察權跟調查權"},{"start":3781.33,"end":3783.33,"text":"跟"},{"start":3783,"end":3785,"text":"監察院的調查權到底差在哪裡"},{"start":3785,"end":3787,"text":"那一個很重要的差別就是立法院的調查權"},{"start":3787,"end":3789,"text":"他原則上是對事不對人"},{"start":3789,"end":3791,"text":"他是為了執行他的法律案"},{"start":3791,"end":3793,"text":"或預算案所"},{"start":3793,"end":3795,"text":"如果中間產生任何疑問的話他可以行使他的調查權"},{"start":3795,"end":3797,"text":"但是監察院不一樣"},{"start":3797,"end":3799,"text":"監察院就像我們剛剛所說的糾正糾舉彈劾"},{"start":3799,"end":3801,"text":"我也不需要一一羅列他的定義"},{"start":3801,"end":3803,"text":"他其實是既對事也對人"},{"start":3803,"end":3805,"text":"特別是糾舉跟彈劾的部分"},{"start":3805,"end":3807,"text":"這個是很清楚的"},{"start":3808.4,"end":3810.4,"text":"所以就這個部分來講"},{"start":3810.4,"end":3812.4,"text":"如果在監察院廢掉之後"},{"start":3812.4,"end":3814.4,"text":"他到底是不是要回歸立法院"},{"start":3814.4,"end":3816.4,"text":"我覺得我有兩種可能的建議方式"},{"start":3817.29,"end":3819.29,"text":"第一個是因為"},{"start":3819.29,"end":3821.29,"text":"我覺得一個方式是"},{"start":3821.29,"end":3823.29,"text":"我覺得應該就直接廢掉"},{"start":3823.29,"end":3825.29,"text":"那也無需要回到立法院"},{"start":3825.29,"end":3827.29,"text":"換句話說就是整個監察院的這部分就拿掉"},{"start":3827.29,"end":3829.29,"text":"那理由是什麼"},{"start":3829.29,"end":3831.29,"text":"第一個理由就是因為當初"},{"start":3831.29,"end":3833.29,"text":"監察院的設計就像孫中山先生"},{"start":3833.29,"end":3835.29,"text":"他所設計的一樣"},{"start":3835.29,"end":3837.29,"text":"大家都知道可能仿照或是從"},{"start":3837.29,"end":3839.29,"text":"中國古代的不管是御史"},{"start":3839.29,"end":3841.29,"text":"建官的制度來講"},{"start":3841.29,"end":3843.29,"text":"那這個可能在當時"},{"start":3843.29,"end":3845.29,"text":"所謂的當時就是"},{"start":3845.29,"end":3847.29,"text":"比如說他寫五權分立"},{"start":3847.29,"end":3849.29,"text":"或者是我們1947年在南京"},{"start":3849.29,"end":3851.29,"text":"制憲的時候"},{"start":3851.29,"end":3853.29,"text":"當時或許是有道理的或是或許是一個好的設計"},{"start":3853.29,"end":3855.29,"text":"但是不管你今天"},{"start":3855.29,"end":3857.29,"text":"對於國家認同的想像是什麼"},{"start":3857.29,"end":3859.29,"text":"有一個不可以否認的事情"},{"start":3859.29,"end":3861.29,"text":"就是中華民國政府"},{"start":3861.29,"end":3863.29,"text":"現在他實際管轄的範圍"},{"start":3863.29,"end":3865.29,"text":"就是只有台灣就是這麼小而已"},{"start":3866.11,"end":3868.11,"text":"當年如果有監察院"},{"start":3868.11,"end":3870.11,"text":"當年監察院設計之所以合理可能是"},{"start":3870.11,"end":3872.11,"text":"因為當時的中華民國是非常大的"},{"start":3872.11,"end":3874.11,"text":"南京可能管不到黑龍江"},{"start":3874.11,"end":3876.11,"text":"就是當時的中央政府所在地"},{"start":3876.11,"end":3878.11,"text":"那南京可能管不到新疆"},{"start":3878.11,"end":3880.11,"text":"管不到什麼地方"},{"start":3880.11,"end":3882.11,"text":"所以你需要有一個院去專門處理"},{"start":3882.11,"end":3884.11,"text":"這些因為天高皇帝遠"},{"start":3884.11,"end":3886.11,"text":"所產生的代理人的問題"},{"start":3886.11,"end":3888.11,"text":"那問題是"},{"start":3888.11,"end":3890.11,"text":"不管當時的設計多良善"},{"start":3890.11,"end":3892.11,"text":"他顯然跟現在中華民國的現況"},{"start":3892.11,"end":3894.11,"text":"就不一樣"},{"start":3894.11,"end":3896.11,"text":"就不一樣"},{"start":3894.97,"end":3896.97,"text":"現在的中華民國政府實際上就是"},{"start":3898.49,"end":3900.49,"text":"就像有些先進在他的報告裡面"},{"start":3900.49,"end":3902.49,"text":"他講你根本不需要這個東西"},{"start":3902.49,"end":3904.49,"text":"因為他其實就是疊床架物"},{"start":3904.49,"end":3906.49,"text":"他就算當時是好的設計"},{"start":3906.49,"end":3908.49,"text":"現在也已經不是了"},{"start":3908.49,"end":3910.49,"text":"所以"},{"start":3912.7,"end":3914.7,"text":"我覺得一個最根本的做法"},{"start":3914.7,"end":3916.7,"text":"就是直接把這個部分全部拿掉就可以了"},{"start":3916.7,"end":3918.7,"text":"那理由就是因為時空環境的變化"},{"start":3918.7,"end":3920.7,"text":"他已經對現在台灣沒有任何的"},{"start":3922.71,"end":3924.71,"text":"那更何況我們過去也有幾年"},{"start":3924.71,"end":3926.71,"text":"其實是監察院是完全沒有在運作的"},{"start":3926.71,"end":3928.71,"text":"那當時也不見得有什麼情況發生"},{"start":3928.71,"end":3930.71,"text":"所以我覺得這是第一個方法"},{"start":3930.71,"end":3932.71,"text":"就是直接把糾正糾取"},{"start":3932.71,"end":3934.71,"text":"彈劾這些權利全部都拿掉就可以了"},{"start":3934.71,"end":3936.71,"text":"也不需要回歸到立法院"},{"start":3937.36,"end":3939.36,"text":"那就第二個部分來"},{"start":3939.36,"end":3941.36,"text":"第二種解決方法就是"},{"start":3941.36,"end":3943.36,"text":"如果有些人覺得說可是監察院偶爾"},{"start":3943.36,"end":3945.36,"text":"還是會做一些事情"},{"start":3945.36,"end":3947.36,"text":"他的功能還是重要的"},{"start":3947.36,"end":3949.36,"text":"只是沒有需要成為一個院的話"},{"start":3949.36,"end":3951.36,"text":"這個當然也不是一個很離譜的說法"},{"start":3951.36,"end":3953.36,"text":"就是如果有人覺得說我們還是"},{"start":3953.36,"end":3955.36,"text":"需要有個單位或是有個機關"},{"start":3955.36,"end":3957.36,"text":"或是有個什麼"},{"start":3957.36,"end":3959.36,"text":"譬如說糾舉啊或是糾正"},{"start":3959.36,"end":3961.36,"text":"一些行政權沒辦法處理的部分"},{"start":3961.36,"end":3963.36,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":3963.36,"end":3965.36,"text":"你放在立法院底下或許"},{"start":3965.36,"end":3967.36,"text":"也是一個可以做的做法"},{"start":3967.36,"end":3969.36,"text":"但問題是"},{"start":3968.98,"end":3970.98,"text":"那這樣子的話就會有一些更細部的設計"},{"start":3970.98,"end":3972.98,"text":"那所謂更細部的設計就指說"},{"start":3972.98,"end":3974.98,"text":"因為我們都知道剛剛我說的"},{"start":3974.98,"end":3976.98,"text":"本來監察院或是現在監察院的這個調查權"},{"start":3976.98,"end":3978.98,"text":"它其實是可以對人的"},{"start":3978.98,"end":3980.98,"text":"特別是糾舉跟彈劾的部分"},{"start":3980.98,"end":3982.98,"text":"那對人的這個"},{"start":3982.98,"end":3984.98,"text":"所以這就是為什麼憲法裡面會明白"},{"start":3984.98,"end":3986.98,"text":"規定說他應該要超出監察委員"},{"start":3986.98,"end":3988.98,"text":"應該要超出黨派行使職權"},{"start":3988.98,"end":3990.98,"text":"那如果你今天想要"},{"start":3990.98,"end":3992.98,"text":"維持這個"},{"start":3994.14,"end":3996.14,"text":"因為糾正糾舉彈劾以及他的"},{"start":3996.14,"end":3998.14,"text":"所附屬的這些調查權的話"},{"start":3998.14,"end":4000.14,"text":"你想要把它放回"},{"start":4000.14,"end":4002.14,"text":"你覺得它還是偶爾會有點作用"},{"start":4002.14,"end":4004.14,"text":"現在把它放在立法院底下的話"},{"start":4004.14,"end":4006.14,"text":"那如何維持憲法原本的規定"},{"start":4006.14,"end":4008.14,"text":"也就是讓這個權力的行使"},{"start":4008.14,"end":4010.14,"text":"可以所謂的超出黨派"},{"start":4010.14,"end":4012.14,"text":"就會變得很重要"},{"start":4012.14,"end":4014.14,"text":"那具體的這套設計可能都"},{"start":4014.14,"end":4016.14,"text":"要嘛也是從人是人命"},{"start":4016.14,"end":4018.14,"text":"要嘛就是你到時候組成調查委員"},{"start":4018.14,"end":4020.14,"text":"會說可能必須要考慮一定要跨黨派成立"},{"start":4020.14,"end":4022.14,"text":"然後調查委員的成立門檻"},{"start":4022.14,"end":4024.14,"text":"然後會議議決的門檻是什麼"},{"start":4024.14,"end":4026.14,"text":"來處理"},{"start":4026.14,"end":4028.14,"text":"那但是這個部分"},{"start":4028.14,"end":4030.14,"text":"在我來看我覺得會是自私一分"},{"start":4030.14,"end":4032.14,"text":"的一種做法"},{"start":4032.14,"end":4034.14,"text":"所以我其實個人的建議是"},{"start":4034.14,"end":4036.14,"text":"因為時空環境的不一樣"},{"start":4036.14,"end":4038.14,"text":"而且這個時空環境的不一樣我想大家都會承認"},{"start":4038.14,"end":4040.14,"text":"所以其實監察院現在"},{"start":4040.14,"end":4042.14,"text":"真的已經沒有必要再存在了"},{"start":4042.14,"end":4044.14,"text":"那如果真的覺得它有存在的話"},{"start":4044.14,"end":4046.14,"text":"你在制度設計的時候就要考慮到"},{"start":4046.14,"end":4048.14,"text":"監察委員一直以來"},{"start":4048.14,"end":4050.14,"text":"因為他對人的關係"},{"start":4050.14,"end":4052.14,"text":"他行使的調查權的方法其實是"},{"start":4052.14,"end":4054.14,"text":"如果各位去看調查"},{"start":4054.14,"end":4056.14,"text":"監察法的話其實是很強大的"},{"start":4056.14,"end":4058.14,"text":"那你就必須要在制度設計上"},{"start":4058.14,"end":4060.14,"text":"要能夠確保"},{"start":4059.97,"end":4061.97,"text":"超出黨派我想是不可能"},{"start":4061.97,"end":4063.97,"text":"畢竟立法委員都有各自對民意負責"},{"start":4063.97,"end":4065.97,"text":"但是你起碼要能夠確保"},{"start":4065.97,"end":4067.97,"text":"這個調查權的行使是一個"},{"start":4067.97,"end":4069.97,"text":"跨黨派的結果"},{"start":4069.97,"end":4071.97,"text":"這是我的第二種看法"},{"start":4071.97,"end":4073.97,"text":"那最後一個就是剛剛也有先進"},{"start":4073.97,"end":4075.97,"text":"所提到人權委員會的部分"},{"start":4077.22,"end":4079.22,"text":"那人權委員會我覺得它其實有存在的必要"},{"start":4079.22,"end":4081.22,"text":"因為有些時候"},{"start":4081.22,"end":4083.22,"text":"有些權利並不是"},{"start":4083.22,"end":4085.22,"text":"就是你真的在進行訴訟的時候會有一些當事人事隔的問題"},{"start":4085.22,"end":4087.22,"text":"那並不是所有的人權案件"},{"start":4087.22,"end":4089.22,"text":"你都可以找到適合的當事人去處理"},{"start":4089.22,"end":4091.22,"text":"所以我覺得人權委員會"},{"start":4091.22,"end":4093.22,"text":"當然還是有它存在的必要"},{"start":4093.22,"end":4095.22,"text":"那至於廢除監察院之後"},{"start":4095.22,"end":4097.219999999999,"text":"它當然就可以成為一個獨立的機關"},{"start":4097.219999999999,"end":4099.219999999999,"text":"那當然沒有必要自己成為一個院"},{"start":4099.219999999999,"end":4101.219999999999,"text":"這是一個"},{"start":4101.219999999999,"end":4103.219999999999,"text":"那還有一些其他的"},{"start":4103.219999999999,"end":4105.219999999999,"text":"案件因為時間的關係"},{"start":4105.22,"end":4107.22,"text":"所以我就會先保留"},{"start":4107.22,"end":4109.22,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4110.81,"end":4112.81,"text":"好謝謝林研究員"},{"start":4112.81,"end":4114.81,"text":"接下來請劉淑賓委員上來發言"},{"start":4127.71,"end":4129.71,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":4129.71,"end":4131.71,"text":"那感謝"},{"start":4131.71,"end":4133.71,"text":"在場的學者專家"},{"start":4133.71,"end":4135.71,"text":"來到我們現場"},{"start":4135.71,"end":4137.71,"text":"針對修憲的議題"},{"start":4137.71,"end":4139.71,"text":"來做一個討論"},{"start":4139.71,"end":4141.71,"text":"發表這樣的寶貴意見"},{"start":4141.83,"end":4143.83,"text":"那身為一個長期在研究政治學"},{"start":4143.83,"end":4145.83,"text":"跟憲政體制的學者"},{"start":4145.83,"end":4147.83,"text":"我要站在這裡"},{"start":4147.83,"end":4149.83,"text":"和大家來共同商討"},{"start":4149.83,"end":4151.83,"text":"修憲裡面的"},{"start":4151.83,"end":4153.83,"text":"廢除監察院的議題"},{"start":4153.83,"end":4155.83,"text":"我們雖然知道說有非常多的議題"},{"start":4155.83,"end":4157.83,"text":"但是我們就針對現在最急迫"},{"start":4157.83,"end":4159.83,"text":"要需要可能而且比較容易達成"},{"start":4159.83,"end":4161.83,"text":"共識的部分來進行"},{"start":4161.83,"end":4163.83,"text":"從憲政制度跟設計的精神"},{"start":4163.83,"end":4165.83,"text":"來看"},{"start":4165.83,"end":4167.83,"text":"權力分立的精神"},{"start":4167.83,"end":4169.83,"text":"在於要相互的制衡"},{"start":4169.78,"end":4171.78,"text":"當年設計五權憲法"},{"start":4171.78,"end":4173.78,"text":"還有他的初衷是希望能夠"},{"start":4173.78,"end":4175.78,"text":"發揚監察權的獨立性"},{"start":4175.78,"end":4177.78,"text":"然而"},{"start":4177.78,"end":4179.78,"text":"眾觀世界成熟的民主國家"},{"start":4179.78,"end":4181.78,"text":"幾乎沒有一個"},{"start":4181.78,"end":4183.78,"text":"任何一個體制"},{"start":4183.78,"end":4185.78,"text":"會設有一個獨立於司法"},{"start":4185.78,"end":4187.78,"text":"跟立法權之外"},{"start":4187.78,"end":4189.78,"text":"卻又缺乏"},{"start":4190.75,"end":4192.75,"text":"實質執行力的這樣的一個"},{"start":4192.75,"end":4194.75,"text":"監察機關"},{"start":4194.57,"end":4196.57,"text":"現實上面的運作根告訴我們"},{"start":4196.57,"end":4198.57,"text":"當前的監察院"},{"start":4198.57,"end":4200.57,"text":"早已已經陷入到"},{"start":4200.57,"end":4202.57,"text":"嚴重的結構性的失能"},{"start":4203.48,"end":4205.48,"text":"最典型的例子就是"},{"start":4205.48,"end":4207.48,"text":"日前在監察院的秘書長"},{"start":4207.48,"end":4209.48,"text":"拒絕出席司法"},{"start":4209.48,"end":4211.48,"text":"及法治委員會"},{"start":4211.48,"end":4213.48,"text":"依據憲法六十七條第二項"},{"start":4213.48,"end":4215.48,"text":"的邀請備詢時的行刑"},{"start":4217.48,"end":4219.48,"text":"然後我們可以看到依據"},{"start":4219.48,"end":4221.48,"text":"司法院的釋字461號解釋"},{"start":4221.48,"end":4223.48,"text":"五院院長基於"},{"start":4223.48,"end":4225.48,"text":"相互尊重不得受邀備詢"},{"start":4225.48,"end":4227.48,"text":"但是對於具有"},{"start":4227.48,"end":4229.48,"text":"行政性質職務的人員"},{"start":4229.48,"end":4231.48,"text":"原則上是不得"},{"start":4231.48,"end":4233.48,"text":"不得拒絕出席"},{"start":4234.02,"end":4236.02,"text":"監察院卻刻意去混淆機關"},{"start":4236.02,"end":4238.02,"text":"首長與行政幕僚的"},{"start":4238.02,"end":4240.02,"text":"這個界線"},{"start":4240.02,"end":4242.02,"text":"拿五院平行當黨箭牌"},{"start":4242.02,"end":4244.02,"text":"鑽法律的灰色地帶"},{"start":4244.02,"end":4246.02,"text":"在需要預算的時候"},{"start":4246.02,"end":4248.02,"text":"法案的時候才審查"},{"start":4248.02,"end":4250.02,"text":"面對業務質詢的時候就不來"},{"start":4250.02,"end":4252.02,"text":"這種自行檢視"},{"start":4252.02,"end":4254.02,"text":"憲法的傲慢"},{"start":4254.02,"end":4256.02,"text":"避責正是實質破壞"},{"start":4256.02,"end":4258.02,"text":"憲政運作的原因"},{"start":4259.48,"end":4261.48,"text":"一個負責廉政與公職人員"},{"start":4261.48,"end":4263.48,"text":"利益衝突調查的機關"},{"start":4263.48,"end":4265.48,"text":"面對國會依憲法的要求"},{"start":4265.48,"end":4267.48,"text":"到立法院說明"},{"start":4267.48,"end":4269.48,"text":"其內部是否出席的決策層級"},{"start":4269.48,"end":4271.48,"text":"出席的標準和會議記錄時"},{"start":4271.48,"end":4273.48,"text":"卻連運作程序都不敢透明化"},{"start":4280.83,"end":4282.83,"text":"當監察院自己都用"},{"start":4282.83,"end":4284.83,"text":"制度在包裝傲慢"},{"start":4284.83,"end":4286.83,"text":"規避憲政運作中"},{"start":4286.83,"end":4288.83,"text":"與國會的連結"},{"start":4288.83,"end":4290.83,"text":"我們又怎麼能夠"},{"start":4290.83,"end":4292.83,"text":"去指望他能夠監督其他的機關呢"},{"start":4292.83,"end":4294.83,"text":"這完全陷入了"},{"start":4294.83,"end":4296.83,"text":"誰來監督"},{"start":4296.83,"end":4298.83,"text":"監督者的一個憲政荒謬"},{"start":4300.03,"end":4302.03,"text":"這樣的避責現象"},{"start":4302.03,"end":4304.03,"text":"正凸顯了"},{"start":4304.03,"end":4306.03,"text":"現今監察院體制性的困境"},{"start":4306.03,"end":4308.03,"text":"因為他"},{"start":4308.03,"end":4310.03,"text":"糾正案缺乏強制力"},{"start":4310.03,"end":4312.03,"text":"彈劾案仍需要"},{"start":4312.03,"end":4314.03,"text":"送懲戒法院"},{"start":4315.12,"end":4317.12,"text":"無形傷中就形成了"},{"start":4317.12,"end":4319.12,"text":"無效的一個監督"},{"start":4319.12,"end":4321.12,"text":"而且他也難確保中立"},{"start":4321.12,"end":4323.12,"text":"我們從"},{"start":4323.12,"end":4325.12,"text":"他政治性的辦案和提名機制"},{"start":4325.12,"end":4327.12,"text":"讓他難以擺脫"},{"start":4327.12,"end":4329.12,"text":"憲政的酬庸陰影"},{"start":4330.61,"end":4332.61,"text":"看到"},{"start":4331.83,"end":4333.83,"text":"最後他則是"},{"start":4333.83,"end":4335.83,"text":"疊床架屋"},{"start":4335.78,"end":4337.78,"text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Accountability Office"},{"start":4959.02,"end":4961.02,"text":"就是政府"},{"start":4961.02,"end":4963.02,"text":"客責處那麼政府"},{"start":4963.02,"end":4965.02,"text":"客責處的處長雖然"},{"start":4965.02,"end":4967.02,"text":"說政府GAO是隸屬於"},{"start":4967.02,"end":4969.02,"text":"美國國會之下可是"},{"start":4969.02,"end":4971.02,"text":"政府客責處的處長是由"},{"start":4971.02,"end":4973.02,"text":"立法院"},{"start":4973.02,"end":4975.02,"text":"美國國會提名三個人選"},{"start":4975.02,"end":4977.02,"text":"由總統來缺選"},{"start":4977.02,"end":4979.02,"text":"然後再經由參議院"},{"start":4979.02,"end":4981.02,"text":"投票同意"},{"start":4981.02,"end":4983.02,"text":"之後任命了所以他"},{"start":4983.02,"end":4985.02,"text":"也兼顧到行政體系"},{"start":4985.02,"end":4987.02,"text":"對這個人選的一個看法"},{"start":4987.02,"end":4989.02,"text":"然後另外一個"},{"start":4989.02,"end":4991.02,"text":"這個"},{"start":4991.02,"end":4993.02,"text":"對不起時間有限"},{"start":4994.04,"end":4996.04,"text":"那麼好那我就到這裡謝謝大家"},{"start":4999.15,"end":5001.15,"text":"謝謝楊太順特聘蔣卓教授的發言"},{"start":5001.15,"end":5003.15,"text":"接下來請李秉南教授上台發言"},{"start":5018.69,"end":5020.69,"text":"主席"},{"start":5020.69,"end":5022.69,"text":"各位委員各位學者專家"},{"start":5022.69,"end":5026.69,"text":"在座的各位先生各位女士"},{"start":5027.92,"end":5031.92,"text":"很榮幸受邀到現場來對"},{"start":5032.8,"end":5034.8,"text":"修憲提案"},{"start":5034.8,"end":5036.8,"text":"提出我個人的一些看法"},{"start":5037.98,"end":5045.98,"text":"我就要照著這個我準備的書面資料跟大家來報告一下我的一些想法"},{"start":5047.68,"end":5049.68,"text":"設計的議題很多"},{"start":5049.68,"end":5051.68,"text":"我可能就挑著來講"},{"start":5053.22,"end":5057.22,"text":"首先是關於這個中央政府的提示的問題"},{"start":5057.89,"end":5061.89,"text":"我跟金門兄參與了97的修憲"},{"start":5063.7,"end":5067.7,"text":"對當前的體制的了解就是我們受"},{"start":5068.79,"end":5070.79,"text":"雙元所長制的影響"},{"start":5070.79,"end":5072.79,"text":"在這個基礎上"},{"start":5073.84,"end":5075.84,"text":"當時的修憲"},{"start":5076.3,"end":5078.3,"text":"的情況跟現在的運作"},{"start":5079.15,"end":5081.15,"text":"之間有若干的差距"},{"start":5081.95,"end":5083.95,"text":"由於這些差距"},{"start":5083.95,"end":5085.95,"text":"我站在那個體制的思維上"},{"start":5085.95,"end":5087.95,"text":"我有兩個想法"},{"start":5087.95,"end":5091.95,"text":"第一個我覺得應該稍稍再往內閣制方向來移動"},{"start":5091.95,"end":5093.95,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":5093.95,"end":5095.95,"text":"我不是說整個都修改成內閣制"},{"start":5095.95,"end":5099.95,"text":"就是說在原來的雙元制度下面"},{"start":5099.95,"end":5101.95,"text":"往內閣制方向再移動一下"},{"start":5101.95,"end":5103.95,"text":"所以在這個考慮下"},{"start":5104.47,"end":5106.47,"text":"我是贊成"},{"start":5106.03,"end":5108.03,"text":"這個"},{"start":5107.4,"end":5109.4,"text":"行政院長的任命"},{"start":5109.61,"end":5111.61,"text":"他要經過"},{"start":5111.6,"end":5113.6,"text":"立法院的同意"},{"start":5113.6,"end":5115.6,"text":"這樣的話"},{"start":5115.6,"end":5117.6,"text":"模糊的問題可以得到解決"},{"start":5118.98,"end":5120.98,"text":"第二個就是說"},{"start":5121.31,"end":5125.31,"text":"再怎麼來看就是經過了將近20年的時間"},{"start":5125.31,"end":5127.31,"text":"總統是有一定的權力"},{"start":5127.7,"end":5129.7,"text":"那麼也造成了一些"},{"start":5129.7,"end":5131.7,"text":"不管在哪一個黨派執政的"},{"start":5132.39,"end":5134.39,"text":"起得總統的位置的時候"},{"start":5135.52,"end":5137.52,"text":"所以我個人覺得說總統的產生辦法"},{"start":5139.33,"end":5141.33,"text":"需要"},{"start":5141.54,"end":5143.54,"text":"認真的來再考慮"},{"start":5143.54,"end":5145.54,"text":"現在這種相對多數制度"},{"start":5147.16,"end":5149.16,"text":"產生的總統"},{"start":5149.16,"end":5151.16,"text":"然後總統擁有這麼大的權力"},{"start":5151.16,"end":5153.16,"text":"不相符合"},{"start":5153.13,"end":5155.13,"text":"我個人覺得應該要往"},{"start":5155.85,"end":5157.85,"text":"絕對多數的方向來修改"},{"start":5159.31,"end":5161.31,"text":"這個你如果注意去看"},{"start":5161.31,"end":5163.31,"text":"雙元縮長制的任何國家"},{"start":5163.31,"end":5165.31,"text":"幾乎都是這樣"},{"start":5165.31,"end":5167.31,"text":"只有"},{"start":5167.04,"end":5169.04,"text":"我查再我來"},{"start":5169.32,"end":5171.32,"text":"這個我發言之前"},{"start":5171.32,"end":5173.32,"text":"我查一下"},{"start":5173.32,"end":5175.32,"text":"找不到就是"},{"start":5174.19,"end":5176.19,"text":"用相對多數制度來產生"},{"start":5176.19,"end":5178.19,"text":"雙元縮長制下面的總統的例子"},{"start":5181.33,"end":5183.33,"text":"那麼關於這個辦法"},{"start":5184.79,"end":5186.79,"text":"法國的養輪絕對"},{"start":5187.91,"end":5189.91,"text":"多數制度是一個選項"},{"start":5189.91,"end":5191.91,"text":"愛爾蘭也有它的一個辦法"},{"start":5192.7,"end":5194.7,"text":"簡單的排序複選制"},{"start":5196.25,"end":5198.25,"text":"我把它做了一個比較"},{"start":5199.44,"end":5201.44,"text":"就是"},{"start":5200.97,"end":5202.97,"text":"這個"},{"start":5203.57,"end":5207.57,"text":"比較簡單一行的是排序的複選制度"},{"start":5208.48,"end":5210.48,"text":"而且它有助於小黨的政治參與"},{"start":5212.62,"end":5214.62,"text":"有助於小黨的政治參與是法國那個制度"},{"start":5216.46,"end":5218.46,"text":"它在養輪選舉當中"},{"start":5218.46,"end":5220.46,"text":"那個第三黨或第四黨"},{"start":5220.46,"end":5222.46,"text":"它有一定的空間"},{"start":5222.46,"end":5224.46,"text":"這個是法國那個制度的優點"},{"start":5224.46,"end":5226.46,"text":"但是它要經過兩次選舉"},{"start":5227.69,"end":5229.69,"text":"所以這個是一個缺點"},{"start":5229.69,"end":5231.69,"text":"就是在選舉的時候"},{"start":5231.69,"end":5233.69,"text":"它成本比較高"},{"start":5233.69,"end":5235.69,"text":"它要產出那個總統的時候成本比較高"},{"start":5235.69,"end":5237.69,"text":"那簡單一行成本比較低"},{"start":5237.69,"end":5239.69,"text":"但是又可以產出"},{"start":5239.7,"end":5241.7,"text":"絕對多數的"},{"start":5241.7,"end":5243.7,"text":"是那個排序複選制度"},{"start":5243.7,"end":5245.7,"text":"我就不再細說了"},{"start":5245.7,"end":5247.7,"text":"大家可以看一下"},{"start":5247.7,"end":5249.7,"text":"我的那個書面的資料"},{"start":5249.7,"end":5251.7,"text":"那麼在這個問題上"},{"start":5251.7,"end":5253.7,"text":"如果能夠同時來解決的話"},{"start":5253.7,"end":5255.7,"text":"那剛剛大家所提到的"},{"start":5255.7,"end":5257.7,"text":"到國會來做報告"},{"start":5257.7,"end":5259.7,"text":"那個問題我也是贊成的"},{"start":5259.7,"end":5261.7,"text":"我順便講一下這個"},{"start":5261.7,"end":5263.7,"text":"我在報告當中沒有提到這個事情"},{"start":5264.68,"end":5266.68,"text":"那麼第二個是關於公民權的擴大問題"},{"start":5268.56,"end":5270.56,"text":"我覺得這個公民權擴大"},{"start":5270.56,"end":5272.56,"text":"我個人是贊成"},{"start":5272.56,"end":5274.56,"text":"但是在現在的這個選舉制度裡面"},{"start":5274.56,"end":5276.56,"text":"其實有一個事情比這個優先更重要"},{"start":5276.56,"end":5278.56,"text":"就是我們的那個不在席投票"},{"start":5278.56,"end":5280.56,"text":"一直都不辦"},{"start":5283.59,"end":5285.59,"text":"你說這個"},{"start":5285.92,"end":5287.92,"text":"國民權要擴大"},{"start":5287.92,"end":5289.92,"text":"那明明就有很多人"},{"start":5289.92,"end":5291.92,"text":"因為各種不同的原因"},{"start":5291.92,"end":5293.92,"text":"他沒有辦法在席投票"},{"start":5294.97,"end":5296.97,"text":"你如果真的那麼重視公民"},{"start":5296.97,"end":5298.97,"text":"參與政治的權利"},{"start":5298.97,"end":5300.97,"text":"這個事情要優先辦理才對"},{"start":5302.14,"end":5304.14,"text":"所以我在那個發言稿第二裡面"},{"start":5304.14,"end":5306.14,"text":"我覺得開辦不在席投票"},{"start":5306.14,"end":5308.14,"text":"應該要"},{"start":5307.86,"end":5309.86,"text":"優先來辦理"},{"start":5311.13,"end":5313.13,"text":"那此外就是說大院也可以研究一下"},{"start":5313.13,"end":5315.13,"text":"就是網路的電子投票"},{"start":5315.13,"end":5317.13,"text":"其實也可以考慮"},{"start":5317.13,"end":5319.13,"text":"列入這個立法議程裡面"},{"start":5321.21,"end":5323.21,"text":"我查一個資料像波羅的海的三小國"},{"start":5323.21,"end":5325.21,"text":"他的投票率也可以高達98%"},{"start":5328.21,"end":5330.21,"text":"現在很多國家的投票率都很低"},{"start":5330.21,"end":5332.21,"text":"你要促進那個公民權的投票"},{"start":5332.21,"end":5334.21,"text":"都很低"},{"start":5334.21,"end":5336.21,"text":"那波羅的海三小國就要電子投票"},{"start":5336.21,"end":5338.21,"text":"不是不能做"},{"start":5337.31,"end":5339.31,"text":"只是怕有弊端"},{"start":5339.31,"end":5341.31,"text":"要怎麼樣防弊"},{"start":5341.31,"end":5343.31,"text":"要做到這個事情"},{"start":5342.74,"end":5344.74,"text":"真的早已在促進公民的政治參與前"},{"start":5344.74,"end":5346.74,"text":"有兩個事情是要做"},{"start":5346.74,"end":5348.74,"text":"網路電子投票"},{"start":5348.74,"end":5350.74,"text":"這個事情是一個未來趨勢"},{"start":5352.16,"end":5354.16,"text":"這個要考慮"},{"start":5354.16,"end":5356.16,"text":"第二個開辦不在席投票"},{"start":5356.16,"end":5358.16,"text":"也應該考慮"},{"start":5358.16,"end":5360.16,"text":"那現在大院又把舊的"},{"start":5360.04,"end":5362.04,"text":"18歲的公民權又拿出來"},{"start":5363.48,"end":5365.48,"text":"當然這個事情我個人贊成"},{"start":5365.48,"end":5367.48,"text":"但其實沒有到那麼急迫"},{"start":5370.18,"end":5372.18,"text":"此外就是18歲這個投票"},{"start":5372.18,"end":5374.18,"text":"也不一定要用修憲"},{"start":5374.18,"end":5376.18,"text":"就是在那個"},{"start":5376.18,"end":5378.18,"text":"其他的立法的"},{"start":5378.18,"end":5380.18,"text":"技術上面都可以處理"},{"start":5380.18,"end":5382.18,"text":"至少在立法委員跟地方選舉上面"},{"start":5382.18,"end":5384.18,"text":"都可以處理"},{"start":5384.78,"end":5386.78,"text":"所以這個是第二個"},{"start":5386.78,"end":5388.78,"text":"我發言的這個"},{"start":5388.78,"end":5390.78,"text":"情況"},{"start":5390.78,"end":5392.78,"text":"這個兩分熟"},{"start":5392.78,"end":5394.78,"text":"再來就是今天的這個"},{"start":5394.78,"end":5396.78,"text":"一個重點考監兩院的問題"},{"start":5396.78,"end":5398.78,"text":"我總體上我個人認為"},{"start":5398.78,"end":5400.78,"text":"維持現有的架構"},{"start":5402.39,"end":5404.39,"text":"中間可以來調整"},{"start":5404.39,"end":5406.39,"text":"的確現在來講"},{"start":5406.39,"end":5408.39,"text":"大家爭議最多的"},{"start":5408.39,"end":5410.39,"text":"最近幾年的檢查案表現"},{"start":5410.39,"end":5412.39,"text":"的確也不是那麼好"},{"start":5410.97,"end":5412.97,"text":"但是我從這個"},{"start":5412.97,"end":5414.97,"text":"就是歷史法學派"},{"start":5414.97,"end":5416.97,"text":"的觀點"},{"start":5416.92,"end":5418.92,"text":"我在寫考試院的時候"},{"start":5418.92,"end":5420.92,"text":"還有社會法學的觀點"},{"start":5420.92,"end":5422.92,"text":"綜合來看"},{"start":5423.37,"end":5425.37,"text":"整體上保留那個架構"},{"start":5425.37,"end":5427.37,"text":"然後做一些調整"},{"start":5427.91,"end":5429.91,"text":"就可以達到大家"},{"start":5429.91,"end":5431.91,"text":"所要的這些目標"},{"start":5432.72,"end":5434.72,"text":"那我個人在"},{"start":5434.72,"end":5436.72,"text":"有榮幸就是在過去幾年"},{"start":5436.72,"end":5438.72,"text":"有參與過這個檢查院的這個工作"},{"start":5438.72,"end":5440.72,"text":"我覺得問題出在"},{"start":5441.8,"end":5443.8,"text":"他本身"},{"start":5443.8,"end":5445.8,"text":"就是檢查委員的獨立性"},{"start":5445.8,"end":5447.8,"text":"不過"},{"start":5449.19,"end":5451.19,"text":"如果一個檢查委員"},{"start":5451.19,"end":5453.19,"text":"他獨立性過的話"},{"start":5453.19,"end":5455.19,"text":"即使現在大家都不動他的"},{"start":5455.19,"end":5457.19,"text":"這個權利他還可以做很多"},{"start":5457.19,"end":5459.19,"text":"的事情"},{"start":5459.53,"end":5461.53,"text":"我就只舉一個例子來說"},{"start":5461.53,"end":5463.53,"text":"比方講說"},{"start":5464.16,"end":5466.16,"text":"在我擔任檢查委員的時候"},{"start":5467.51,"end":5469.51,"text":"當時大家"},{"start":5469.39,"end":5471.39,"text":"輪流值班"},{"start":5471.39,"end":5473.39,"text":"一般民眾"},{"start":5473.39,"end":5475.39,"text":"他來這個檢查院"},{"start":5475.39,"end":5477.39,"text":"陳情"},{"start":5476.76,"end":5478.76,"text":"我們支辦委員下去"},{"start":5478.76,"end":5480.76,"text":"接見他"},{"start":5479.95,"end":5481.95,"text":"接見了以後知道說他"},{"start":5481.95,"end":5483.95,"text":"有所困難"},{"start":5484.78,"end":5486.78,"text":"這個政府方面的什麼東西"},{"start":5486.78,"end":5488.78,"text":"知道了以後我們就開始"},{"start":5488.78,"end":5490.78,"text":"進行狀況了解"},{"start":5491.7,"end":5493.7,"text":"他的案件"},{"start":5493.7,"end":5495.7,"text":"做一個審慎考量"},{"start":5495.7,"end":5497.7,"text":"然後做出建議"},{"start":5497.7,"end":5499.7,"text":"這個對公民權利的保護來說"},{"start":5500.18,"end":5502.18,"text":"是一個非常好的機制"},{"start":5503.42,"end":5505.42,"text":"我覺得總體上來講"},{"start":5505.42,"end":5507.42,"text":"是應該從技術上去"},{"start":5508.71,"end":5510.71,"text":"看檢查委員怎麼樣能夠在"},{"start":5510.71,"end":5512.71,"text":"現有的架構下"},{"start":5512.71,"end":5514.71,"text":"能夠發揮功能而不必"},{"start":5514.71,"end":5516.71,"text":"大動干戈"},{"start":5516.97,"end":5518.97,"text":"這個是我在總體上的"},{"start":5518.97,"end":5520.97,"text":"這個其他的"},{"start":5520.97,"end":5522.97,"text":"看法在書面中我寫得很詳細"},{"start":5522.97,"end":5524.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5526.81,"end":5528.81,"text":"好謝謝李秉南教授的發言"},{"start":5528.81,"end":5530.81,"text":"接下來請蔡義仲"},{"start":5530.81,"end":5532.81,"text":"助理教授上台發言"},{"start":5544.3,"end":5546.3,"text":"主席這場各位先進"},{"start":5546.3,"end":5548.3,"text":"很榮幸能夠今天來參與"},{"start":5548.3,"end":5550.3,"text":"這個公聽會"},{"start":5550.3,"end":5552.3,"text":"我想這個議題非常的有意義"},{"start":5552.3,"end":5554.3,"text":"修憲的議題在台灣討論"},{"start":5554.3,"end":5556.3,"text":"也非常的久尤其是"},{"start":5556.3,"end":5558.3,"text":"這一次的這樣的一個主題"},{"start":5558.3,"end":5560.3,"text":"有五權走向三權這件事情"},{"start":5560.3,"end":5562.3,"text":"其實是越來越獲得我們社會的共識"},{"start":5562.3,"end":5564.3,"text":"如同前面先進"},{"start":5564.3,"end":5566.3,"text":"所提到的其實"},{"start":5566.3,"end":5568.3,"text":"權力的權力分立"},{"start":5568.3,"end":5570.3,"text":"的架構之下其實是"},{"start":5570.3,"end":5572.3,"text":"除了分權還有制衡"},{"start":5572.3,"end":5574.3,"text":"到目前的憲政體制的權限分配"},{"start":5574.3,"end":5576.3,"text":"監察跟"},{"start":5576.3,"end":5578.3,"text":"這個考試兩權是難以"},{"start":5578.3,"end":5580.3,"text":"對其他的一個權力"},{"start":5580.3,"end":5582.3,"text":"做出制衡有效的制衡"},{"start":5582.3,"end":5584.3,"text":"那以及會複雜化"},{"start":5584.3,"end":5586.3,"text":"我們權力之間的一些關係"},{"start":5586.3,"end":5588.3,"text":"對於權限運作的這樣的一個效能"},{"start":5588.3,"end":5590.3,"text":"其實並不是一個優點"},{"start":5590.3,"end":5592.3,"text":"那涉及到"},{"start":5592.3,"end":5594.3,"text":"監察院如果廢除我們大家"},{"start":5594.3,"end":5596.3,"text":"有一個初步的共識的話"},{"start":5596.3,"end":5598.3,"text":"那他的權限應該"},{"start":5598.3,"end":5600.3,"text":"如何歸屬其實又回到說我們走向"},{"start":5600.3,"end":5602.3,"text":"三權行政立法"},{"start":5602.3,"end":5604.3,"text":"司法之間的一個權力分配"},{"start":5604.3,"end":5606.3,"text":"的問題所以以下我其實會談到"},{"start":5606.3,"end":5608.3,"text":"這個監察權廢除之後"},{"start":5608.3,"end":5610.3,"text":"首先是這個權限的"},{"start":5610.3,"end":5612.3,"text":"所屬然後再來也會談"},{"start":5612.3,"end":5614.3,"text":"到就是這個行政立法"},{"start":5614.3,"end":5616.3,"text":"之間的一些互動的一個"},{"start":5616.3,"end":5618.3,"text":"問題"},{"start":5618.06,"end":5620.06,"text":"那其實監察權的歸屬"},{"start":5620.06,"end":5622.06,"text":"這個他所設的彈劾"},{"start":5622.06,"end":5624.06,"text":"糾局糾正等等的一些"},{"start":5624.06,"end":5626.06,"text":"權力我們的確可以去思考說"},{"start":5626.06,"end":5628.06,"text":"還有沒有存在的必要性"},{"start":5628.06,"end":5630.06,"text":"那或者是說讓他回歸"},{"start":5630.06,"end":5632.06,"text":"比如說對於公務員的一個"},{"start":5632.06,"end":5634.06,"text":"這個責任追究的機制以及"},{"start":5634.06,"end":5636.06,"text":"國會的一個對行政權的監督"},{"start":5636.06,"end":5638.06,"text":"機制就可以了那如果要保留"},{"start":5638.06,"end":5640.06,"text":"那保留其實"},{"start":5640.06,"end":5642.06,"text":"他會比他的確會比較接近"},{"start":5642.06,"end":5644.06,"text":"立法權的一個性質那回"},{"start":5644.06,"end":5646.06,"text":"歸到這個立法權來做"},{"start":5646.06,"end":5648.06,"text":"行使那但是我們要"},{"start":5648.06,"end":5650.06,"text":"又要怎麼樣去避免"},{"start":5650.06,"end":5652.06,"text":"這樣的一個權力太過的集中在一個"},{"start":5652.06,"end":5654.06,"text":"機關我認為其實也可以"},{"start":5654.06,"end":5656.06,"text":"考慮所謂的國會的兩院"},{"start":5656.06,"end":5658.06,"text":"制度就是說如果"},{"start":5658.06,"end":5660.06,"text":"有一個上議院或者是參議院"},{"start":5660.06,"end":5662.06,"text":"他具有一個比較專業性"},{"start":5662.06,"end":5664.06,"text":"或者是獨立性的存在"},{"start":5664.06,"end":5666.06,"text":"由下議院充分的反映民意"},{"start":5666.06,"end":5668.06,"text":"然後上議院能夠可以"},{"start":5668.06,"end":5670.06,"text":"更不為這個所謂的"},{"start":5670.06,"end":5672.06,"text":"這個國際或者是"},{"start":5672.06,"end":5674.06,"text":"國內政治現實來行使他的"},{"start":5674.06,"end":5676.06,"text":"權力其實是對國家"},{"start":5676.06,"end":5678.06,"text":"還有對這個所謂的立法權的分工"},{"start":5678.06,"end":5680.06,"text":"都是一件好的事情這樣"}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造成總統行政院以及"},{"start":7527.95,"end":7529.95,"text":"立法院之間嚴重的這個"},{"start":7529.95,"end":7531.95,"text":"權責混亂以上解要"},{"start":7531.95,"end":7533.95,"text":"國情報告謝謝"},{"start":7535.51,"end":7537.51,"text":"好謝謝防疫會律師的發言"},{"start":7539.21,"end":7541.21,"text":"接下來我們請謝正日教授"},{"start":7541.21,"end":7543.21,"text":"上台發言"},{"start":7547.9,"end":7549.9,"text":"先不要那個計時間好不好"},{"start":7549.9,"end":7551.9,"text":"我測一下這樣"},{"start":7551.9,"end":7553.9,"text":"因為只有我好像只有我做PPT"},{"start":7554.93,"end":7555.43,"text":"OK"},{"start":7556.17,"end":7558.17,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":7558.17,"end":7560.17,"text":"那就回到原地"},{"start":7562.39,"end":7564.39,"text":"主席各位"},{"start":7564.39,"end":7566.39,"text":"在座只有蔡委員在"},{"start":7566.39,"end":7568.39,"text":"真的給他鼓掌一下"},{"start":7568.39,"end":7570.39,"text":"真的是"},{"start":7570.02,"end":7572.02,"text":"各位協助界的前輩"},{"start":7572.02,"end":7574.02,"text":"各位在座的先生女士"},{"start":7575.94,"end":7577.94,"text":"這是一個很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":7578.68,"end":7580.68,"text":"立法院有九個提案"},{"start":7582.29,"end":7584.29,"text":"涉及到的"},{"start":7584.53,"end":7586.53,"text":"憲法條文跟徵修條文"},{"start":7586.53,"end":7588.53,"text":"憲法條文將近15%"},{"start":7588.53,"end":7590.53,"text":"徵修條文41%"},{"start":7590.53,"end":7592.53,"text":"也就是整個憲政的結構"},{"start":7592.53,"end":7594.53,"text":"因為如果提案都通過的話"},{"start":7594.53,"end":7596.53,"text":"那是知識挺大"},{"start":7596.53,"end":7598.53,"text":"所以立法院是一個獎勵的地方"},{"start":7598.53,"end":7600.53,"text":"我們怎麼樣"},{"start":7600.53,"end":7602.53,"text":"好好的來檢討一下"},{"start":7602.53,"end":7604.53,"text":"我們這部憲法"},{"start":7607.47,"end":7609.47,"text":"這是我所簽要提供的第一點"},{"start":7610.72,"end":7612.72,"text":"第二點啊"},{"start":7611.97,"end":7613.97,"text":"就是"},{"start":7614.18,"end":7616.18,"text":"憲法它都是有限的文字"},{"start":7617.95,"end":7619.95,"text":"這有限的文字"},{"start":7619.95,"end":7621.95,"text":"過去是12同標法"},{"start":7621.95,"end":7623.95,"text":"刻在銅板上"},{"start":7623.28,"end":7625.28,"text":"這個東西"},{"start":7625.42,"end":7627.42,"text":"只是形式啊"},{"start":7627.42,"end":7629.42,"text":"憲法要讓它運作"},{"start":7629.42,"end":7631.42,"text":"要刻在人的心板上"},{"start":7631.42,"end":7633.42,"text":"特別是政治人物的心板上"},{"start":7633.42,"end":7635.42,"text":"如果政治人物"},{"start":7635.42,"end":7637.42,"text":"心中沒有憲法"},{"start":7637.42,"end":7639.42,"text":"我後面會講到"},{"start":7639.42,"end":7641.42,"text":"就成為一個名目憲法"},{"start":7641.42,"end":7643.42,"text":"成為一個語意憲法"},{"start":7643.42,"end":7645.42,"text":"那個憲法沒辦法實現"},{"start":7645.42,"end":7647.42,"text":"憲法被踐踏"},{"start":7645.59,"end":7647.59,"text":"各說各話為什麼"},{"start":7647.59,"end":7649.59,"text":"因為我們監督機制不夠"},{"start":7650.51,"end":7652.51,"text":"美國有一個很有名的"},{"start":7652.51,"end":7654.51,"text":"偷寇維爾一本書"},{"start":7654.51,"end":7656.51,"text":"他是法國人"},{"start":7656.52,"end":7660.52,"text":"他說啊美國民主政治之所以能夠運行的好"},{"start":7660.52,"end":7662.52,"text":"三大原因啊"},{"start":7662.52,"end":7664.52,"text":"自然環境法治跟民情"},{"start":7664.86,"end":7666.86,"text":"而這個當中自然環境不如法治"},{"start":7666.86,"end":7668.86,"text":"法治又不如民情"},{"start":7668.86,"end":7670.86,"text":"民情是最重要的"},{"start":7673.38,"end":7675.38,"text":"哈佛大學的John Rose"},{"start":7675.38,"end":7677.38,"text":"他也講啊"},{"start":7677.38,"end":7679.38,"text":"一個正義要維持"},{"start":7679.38,"end":7681.38,"text":"基本上他要有背景文化"},{"start":7681.38,"end":7683.38,"text":"跟基本結構"},{"start":7683.38,"end":7685.38,"text":"如果這個東西被破壞了"},{"start":7685.38,"end":7687.38,"text":"民主政治或者正義都沒辦法"},{"start":7687.38,"end":7689.38,"text":"實現的啦"},{"start":7690.32,"end":7694.32,"text":"我們來看看當前憲法價格的糾葛"},{"start":7694.32,"end":7696.32,"text":"很多人都說三權跟五權"},{"start":7696.32,"end":7698.32,"text":"我想孫中山"},{"start":7698.32,"end":7700.32,"text":"他"},{"start":7700.16,"end":7702.16,"text":"在國外走了26年"},{"start":7703.72,"end":7705.72,"text":"歐美去了11次"},{"start":7706.12,"end":7708.12,"text":"日本12次"},{"start":7708.12,"end":7710.12,"text":"東南亞43次"},{"start":7710.12,"end":7712.12,"text":"他其實考察很多民情"},{"start":7712.12,"end":7714.12,"text":"考察很多國會"},{"start":7714.12,"end":7716.12,"text":"跟很多政治人物有過討論"},{"start":7716.12,"end":7718.12,"text":"最後得出"},{"start":7718.07,"end":7720.07,"text":"有些國家的憲法不能學"},{"start":7720.07,"end":7722.07,"text":"有些是不用學"},{"start":7722.35,"end":7724.35,"text":"三權分立有許多的毛病啊"},{"start":7724.35,"end":7726.35,"text":"這些毛病"},{"start":7726.35,"end":7728.35,"text":"在我們國內的民情之下"},{"start":7728.35,"end":7730.35,"text":"有些笨本加厲"},{"start":7730.35,"end":7732.35,"text":"我後面會提到"},{"start":7732.35,"end":7734.35,"text":"所以五權"},{"start":7734.35,"end":7736.35,"text":"多了比三權多了七道"},{"start":7738.03,"end":7740.03,"text":"英國學者叫"},{"start":7740.03,"end":7742.03,"text":"他說"},{"start":7742.03,"end":7744.03,"text":"憲政的軌道上"},{"start":7744.03,"end":7746.03,"text":"要有一些安全法"},{"start":7746.03,"end":7748.03,"text":"讓這個安全法"},{"start":7748.03,"end":7750.03,"text":"能夠及時的制止"},{"start":7750.03,"end":7752.03,"text":"很多憲政的"},{"start":7752.03,"end":7754.03,"text":"我們現在看到行政立法"},{"start":7754.03,"end":7756.03,"text":"在撞車啊"},{"start":7756.03,"end":7758.03,"text":"就是沒有安全法"},{"start":7758.03,"end":7760.03,"text":"那個安全法很重要"},{"start":7759.54,"end":7761.54,"text":"OK我們再往下看"},{"start":7761.54,"end":7763.54,"text":"所以總統"},{"start":7763.21,"end":7765.21,"text":"剛剛也有人講同意不同意"},{"start":7765.21,"end":7767.21,"text":"立法院我認為大大的"},{"start":7767.21,"end":7769.21,"text":"要贊成應該要到嘛"},{"start":7770.21,"end":7772.21,"text":"總統權益這麼大"},{"start":7772.21,"end":7774.21,"text":"但是他的每一年的"},{"start":7774.21,"end":7776.21,"text":"施政的重點是什麼"},{"start":7776.21,"end":7778.21,"text":"要對老百姓交代嘛"},{"start":7778.21,"end":7780.21,"text":"如果他不是這樣子做的話"},{"start":7780.21,"end":7782.21,"text":"因為這個不是一個"},{"start":7782.21,"end":7784.21,"text":"兩小時的報告而已"},{"start":7784.21,"end":7786.21,"text":"他要多少要了解"},{"start":7786.21,"end":7788.21,"text":"真正台灣的問題在哪裡"},{"start":7788.21,"end":7790.21,"text":"民情在哪裡"},{"start":7790.21,"end":7792.21,"text":"不是在搞人事的橋下去"},{"start":7792.21,"end":7794.21,"text":"很多事情"},{"start":7794.21,"end":7796.21,"text":"一天到晚可能出現"},{"start":7796.21,"end":7798.21,"text":"很多社會的亂象"},{"start":7798.21,"end":7800.21,"text":"總統所有的幕僚"},{"start":7800.21,"end":7802.21,"text":"都要幫他"},{"start":7802.21,"end":7804.21,"text":"好好地來你一年的"},{"start":7804.21,"end":7806.21,"text":"計畫是什麼"},{"start":7806.21,"end":7808.21,"text":"實現了多少"},{"start":7808.21,"end":7810.21,"text":"這個是重點啦"},{"start":7810.21,"end":7812.21,"text":"不是四年講了一下"},{"start":7812.21,"end":7814.21,"text":"之後就安啦"},{"start":7814.21,"end":7816.21,"text":"坐在所謂的太師以上"},{"start":7816.21,"end":7818.21,"text":"我想我們"},{"start":7818.21,"end":7820.21,"text":"另外就是我常常講說"},{"start":7820.21,"end":7822.21,"text":"總統來不用怕啦"},{"start":7823.06,"end":7825.06,"text":"這個所有的朝野政黨"},{"start":7825.06,"end":7827.06,"text":"怎麼來因應"},{"start":7827.06,"end":7829.06,"text":"總統的國情報告"},{"start":7829.06,"end":7831.06,"text":"剛剛也有其他的教授"},{"start":7831.06,"end":7833.06,"text":"提到美國為例"},{"start":7833.06,"end":7835.06,"text":"他們沒有質詢啦"},{"start":7835.06,"end":7837.06,"text":"但是完之後再野黨要兩小時"},{"start":7837.06,"end":7839.06,"text":"跟他相對的時間"},{"start":7839.06,"end":7841.06,"text":"在媒體上也好在國會上也好"},{"start":7841.06,"end":7843.06,"text":"再做反補"},{"start":7842.92,"end":7844.92,"text":"這個就展現了什麼"},{"start":7844.92,"end":7846.92,"text":"朝野政黨的政治視野"},{"start":7846.92,"end":7848.92,"text":"跟他的風度啊"},{"start":7848.92,"end":7850.92,"text":"這個部分我們要見"},{"start":7850.92,"end":7852.92,"text":"另外我們看美國他除了"},{"start":7852.92,"end":7854.92,"text":"總統國情之吻之外啊"},{"start":7854.92,"end":7856.92,"text":"他的州他的郡"},{"start":7856.92,"end":7858.92,"text":"也跟著一樣化葫蘆"},{"start":7858.92,"end":7860.92,"text":"也要做所謂的施政報告"},{"start":7860.92,"end":7862.92,"text":"如果我們總統這樣做了"},{"start":7862.92,"end":7864.92,"text":"我們的縣市首長"},{"start":7864.92,"end":7866.92,"text":"甚至我們的鄉鎮長"},{"start":7866.92,"end":7868.92,"text":"也大家都來做的話"},{"start":7868.92,"end":7870.92,"text":"責任政治就一步一步落實了"},{"start":7872.3,"end":7874.3,"text":"我們來看法國"},{"start":7874.3,"end":7876.3,"text":"剛剛很多人提到法國"},{"start":7876.12,"end":7878.12,"text":"法國的雙首長制啊"},{"start":7878.68,"end":7880.68,"text":"幾乎大家認同他雙首長制"},{"start":7880.68,"end":7882.68,"text":"美國的一個學者"},{"start":7882.68,"end":7884.68,"text":"叫Sattory"},{"start":7884.68,"end":7886.68,"text":"他說雙首長制啊其實是"},{"start":7886.68,"end":7888.68,"text":"兩步引擎啊"},{"start":7888.68,"end":7890.68,"text":"免得一步引擎如果是總統制"},{"start":7890.68,"end":7892.68,"text":"這個運作不良的話"},{"start":7892.68,"end":7894.68,"text":"國家就慘了"},{"start":7894.68,"end":7896.68,"text":"或者是"},{"start":7896.68,"end":7898.68,"text":"所謂的內閣運作不良"},{"start":7898.68,"end":7900.68,"text":"也是一樣"},{"start":7900.68,"end":7902.68,"text":"所以雙首長制至少一步"},{"start":7902.68,"end":7904.68,"text":"機器還能夠運作"},{"start":7904.68,"end":7906.68,"text":"一部分的機器"},{"start":7906.78,"end":7908.78,"text":"這是他的所謂的良性"},{"start":7909.98,"end":7911.98,"text":"哪"},{"start":7911.08,"end":7913.08,"text":"因為我們的總統權力太大了"},{"start":7913.08,"end":7915.08,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":7915.23,"end":7917.23,"text":"也沒有必要罷免"},{"start":7916.95,"end":7918.95,"text":"如果總統尊重國會多數"},{"start":7920.4,"end":7922.4,"text":"提名國會多數黨的人當"},{"start":7923.5,"end":7925.5,"text":"行政院長"},{"start":7925.5,"end":7927.5,"text":"而行政院長又根據憲法55條"},{"start":7927.5,"end":7929.5,"text":"是國家的最高行政機關"},{"start":7929.5,"end":7931.5,"text":"那我們就走向"},{"start":7931.5,"end":7933.5,"text":"雙首長制"},{"start":7933.88,"end":7935.88,"text":"這個時候罷免"},{"start":7935.88,"end":7937.88,"text":"我認為是可有可無"},{"start":7937.88,"end":7939.88,"text":"因為基本上尊重了國會的"},{"start":7941.78,"end":7943.78,"text":"那如果不是這樣子"},{"start":7943.78,"end":7945.78,"text":"還是現在的"},{"start":7945.86,"end":7947.86,"text":"當時候通過這個的時候"},{"start":7947.86,"end":7949.86,"text":"在座也有當年的國大"},{"start":7949.86,"end":7951.86,"text":"通過了雙首長制之後"},{"start":7951.86,"end":7953.86,"text":"大家也檢視了"},{"start":7953.86,"end":7955.86,"text":"媒體也報導說"},{"start":7955.86,"end":7957.86,"text":"我們的總統切少監督的機制之後"},{"start":7957.86,"end":7959.86,"text":"變成天霸王總統"},{"start":7959.86,"end":7961.86,"text":"當時候叫天霸王"},{"start":7961.86,"end":7963.86,"text":"用台灣話來講"},{"start":7963.86,"end":7965.86,"text":"叫天霸王"},{"start":7965.44,"end":7967.44,"text":"那我們再看看再往下看"},{"start":7967.44,"end":7969.44,"text":"這樣一個天霸王的總統"},{"start":7969.44,"end":7971.44,"text":"不需要監督嗎"},{"start":7972.17,"end":7974.17,"text":"另外我們再看"},{"start":7973.92,"end":7975.92,"text":"很多人講說"},{"start":7975.56,"end":7977.56,"text":"監察院歸立法院"},{"start":7978.21,"end":7980.21,"text":"立法院現在已經忙得不可開交了"},{"start":7980.21,"end":7982.21,"text":"立法委員"},{"start":7982.21,"end":7984.21,"text":"他要監督"},{"start":7984.21,"end":7986.21,"text":"他要預算"},{"start":7986.21,"end":7988.21,"text":"他要立法他要人事同意"},{"start":7988.21,"end":7990.21,"text":"他更大的要選民服務"},{"start":7990.21,"end":7992.21,"text":"為什麼要這麼多選民服務"},{"start":7992.21,"end":7994.21,"text":"因為我們中央集權"},{"start":7994.21,"end":7996.21,"text":"行政力量太大"},{"start":7996.21,"end":7998.21,"text":"沒辦法下到地方"},{"start":7998.21,"end":8000.21,"text":"要透過立委來監督"},{"start":8000.21,"end":8002.21,"text":"把權力把金錢把資源"},{"start":8002.21,"end":8004.21,"text":"下到地方去"},{"start":8004.21,"end":8006.21,"text":"這個是我們設計"},{"start":8006.21,"end":8008.21,"text":"現在的一個偏向中央權力太大了"},{"start":8008.21,"end":8010.21,"text":"所以在這種情況之下"},{"start":8010.21,"end":8012.21,"text":"如果"},{"start":8012.7,"end":8014.7,"text":"監察院併入立法院"},{"start":8014.7,"end":8016.7,"text":"權力也太大了"},{"start":8016.7,"end":8018.7,"text":"就成爲這個立法的他所講的"},{"start":8018.7,"end":8020.7,"text":"就變成立法優勢了"},{"start":8020.7,"end":8022.7,"text":"如果考試"},{"start":8022.7,"end":8024.7,"text":"又併入行政的話"},{"start":8024.7,"end":8026.7,"text":"就行政太優勢了"},{"start":8026.7,"end":8028.7,"text":"考試委員也很重要"},{"start":8028.7,"end":8030.7,"text":"他要規劃國家未來發展"},{"start":8030.7,"end":8032.7,"text":"需要哪些文官"},{"start":8032.7,"end":8034.7,"text":"需要哪些專業的人"},{"start":8034.7,"end":8036.7,"text":"的所謂的專門技術人員"},{"start":8036.7,"end":8038.7,"text":"責任很龐大"},{"start":8038.7,"end":8040.7,"text":"而且要付給他助理才對"},{"start":8040.7,"end":8042.7,"text":"多點助理來研究國家的"},{"start":8042.7,"end":8044.7,"text":"考試英國的人"},{"start":8044.7,"end":8046.7,"text":"文官制度是學中國的"},{"start":8046.7,"end":8048.7,"text":"這種情況之下"},{"start":8048.7,"end":8050.7,"text":"我最後再講幾句話"},{"start":8052.02,"end":8054.02,"text":"我認為我們舉個"},{"start":8054.02,"end":8056.02,"text":"那個當時候衛貞"},{"start":8056.02,"end":8058.02,"text":"對唐太宗的"},{"start":8058.02,"end":8060.02,"text":"唐太宗上班時間在"},{"start":8060.02,"end":8062.02,"text":"後花園玩鳥"},{"start":8062.02,"end":8064.02,"text":"衛貞遠遠就看到了"},{"start":8064.02,"end":8066.02,"text":"皇帝這麼大權力的人"},{"start":8066.02,"end":8068.02,"text":"一代明君"},{"start":8068.02,"end":8070.02,"text":"在後面玩鳥"},{"start":8070.02,"end":8072.02,"text":"他就故意走近"},{"start":8072.02,"end":8074.02,"text":"然後走近之後故意跟他聊天"},{"start":8074.02,"end":8076.02,"text":"聊很久"},{"start":8076.02,"end":8078.02,"text":"唐太宗看到衛貞的時候"},{"start":8078.02,"end":8080.02,"text":"把他心愛的那個叫耀鷹"},{"start":8080.02,"end":8082.02,"text":"把他藏在衣袖裡"},{"start":8082.02,"end":8084.02,"text":"講了很久之後"},{"start":8084.02,"end":8086.02,"text":"衛貞走了之後那個鳥變悶死了"},{"start":8086.02,"end":8088.02,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":8088.02,"end":8090.02,"text":"玉死大夫的威嚴"},{"start":8090.13,"end":8092.13,"text":"我們過去出在哪裡"},{"start":8092.81,"end":8094.81,"text":"用人不當嘛"},{"start":8094.81,"end":8096.81,"text":"提名不當嘛"},{"start":8096.81,"end":8098.81,"text":"所以停擺了多久"},{"start":8098.81,"end":8100.81,"text":"我想這是我們兼差人的職能"},{"start":8101.99,"end":8103.99,"text":"缺乏"},{"start":8103.99,"end":8105.99,"text":"應該發揮他歷史上應有的"},{"start":8105.99,"end":8107.99,"text":"我剛剛講的"},{"start":8107.99,"end":8109.99,"text":"阿伯利所講的民情"},{"start":8109.99,"end":8111.99,"text":"民情希望多一點"},{"start":8112.48,"end":8114.48,"text":"所謂的國家的建官"},{"start":8114.48,"end":8116.48,"text":"能夠讓我們的文官"},{"start":8116.48,"end":8118.48,"text":"甚至讓我們的司法官都上軌道嘛"},{"start":8118.48,"end":8120.48,"text":"大家一起上軌道"},{"start":8120.48,"end":8124.48,"text":"大家一起享受憲政民主的優勢的利益"},{"start":8124.48,"end":8126.48,"text":"我想這是我的潛艦"},{"start":8126.48,"end":8128.48,"text":"請大家指教"},{"start":8128.48,"end":8130.48,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8131.52,"end":8133.52,"text":"好謝謝謝聖玉教授的發言"},{"start":8133.52,"end":8137.52,"text":"接下來我們請戴卷妍副教授上台發言"},{"start":8147.82,"end":8149.82,"text":"王委員蔡委員還有蔡多哥市長"},{"start":8151.7,"end":8155.7,"text":"也感謝立法院的邀請"},{"start":8155.7,"end":8159.7,"text":"那我就就今天的這個主題提供一些意見"},{"start":8159.7,"end":8163.7,"text":"我想發言分兩大派"},{"start":8163.7,"end":8167.7,"text":"第一個呢就是我們談到這個修憲的議題"},{"start":8167.7,"end":8171.7,"text":"但是呢修憲它其實是需要有一個我們所謂的這個憲法時刻"},{"start":8171.7,"end":8175.7,"text":"也就是說當國民的意志跟政黨的意志"},{"start":8175.7,"end":8177.7,"text":"對於這個修憲形成一個共識的時候呢"},{"start":8177.7,"end":8179.7,"text":"大家共同來推動"},{"start":8179.7,"end":8181.7,"text":"這就比較容易"},{"start":8181.7,"end":8183.7,"text":"因為我們的修憲門檻實在很高"},{"start":8183.7,"end":8185.7,"text":"超級高的"},{"start":8185.7,"end":8189.7,"text":"所以哪怕是社會共識很高的題目呢"},{"start":8189.7,"end":8193.7,"text":"如果沒有一個大家共同的政治動員呢"},{"start":8193.7,"end":8197.7,"text":"老百姓那天可能都跑去郊遊了"},{"start":8197.7,"end":8201.7,"text":"所以投票的動能不足"},{"start":8201.7,"end":8205.7,"text":"所以要有一個政治力的這種支撐呢"},{"start":8205.7,"end":8207.7,"text":"我們的修憲才有機會"},{"start":8207.7,"end":8209.7,"text":"那所以呢這個"},{"start":8209.7,"end":8215.7,"text":"我想在目前這種朝野的這種氛圍之下"},{"start":8215.7,"end":8217.7,"text":"我們要推動任何一個修憲案"},{"start":8217.7,"end":8221.7,"text":"可能都會最後會淪為這個紙上談兵"},{"start":8221.7,"end":8223.7,"text":"那當然了如果說"},{"start":8223.7,"end":8227.7,"text":"這個朝野的領袖呢"},{"start":8227.7,"end":8231.7,"text":"有人願意去打開這個局面"},{"start":8231.7,"end":8233.7,"text":"那麼用這個性改的議題呢"},{"start":8233.7,"end":8237.7,"text":"重新來重建我們國家的這個體制"},{"start":8237.7,"end":8239.7,"text":"或者政治上的一種團結"},{"start":8239.7,"end":8241.7,"text":"或者是對國家發展的共識"},{"start":8241.7,"end":8243.7,"text":"我想這個未免呢"},{"start":8243.7,"end":8247.7,"text":"未免也不是一個很好的政治的議題"},{"start":8247.7,"end":8249.7,"text":"比如說那我們就"},{"start":8249.7,"end":8253.7,"text":"因為剛才我們看到很多先進談到各種"},{"start":8253.7,"end":8255.7,"text":"憲政的主張"},{"start":8255.7,"end":8259.7,"text":"其實都是教科書上的各種版本的主張"},{"start":8259.7,"end":8261.7,"text":"可是呢我們面對的這個"},{"start":8261.7,"end":8265.7,"text":"這麼困難的這個修憲的這個程序"},{"start":8265.7,"end":8267.7,"text":"其實這個"},{"start":8267.7,"end":8269.7,"text":"這些主張呢"},{"start":8269.7,"end":8271.7,"text":"要一次的通通來處理呢"},{"start":8271.7,"end":8273.7,"text":"我想喔"},{"start":8273.7,"end":8275.7,"text":"那個在立法院的修憲委員會"},{"start":8275.7,"end":8277.7,"text":"這樣一個機制我想是不足的"},{"start":8277.7,"end":8281.7,"text":"過去我們修憲的成功的方程式"},{"start":8281.7,"end":8283.7,"text":"其實呢"},{"start":8283.7,"end":8287.7,"text":"是在我們國家的這個憲政體制之外"},{"start":8287.7,"end":8289.7,"text":"經過政治的這個方程式"},{"start":8289.7,"end":8291.7,"text":"經過政治的共識形成"},{"start":8291.7,"end":8293.7,"text":"比如說一個國事會議"},{"start":8293.7,"end":8295.7,"text":"那麼在那邊形成共識之後呢"},{"start":8295.7,"end":8299.7,"text":"再放回來國家的修憲的這個程序當中"},{"start":8299.7,"end":8301.7,"text":"去落實去完成"},{"start":8301.7,"end":8305.7,"text":"這是我們過去七次修憲的成功方程式"},{"start":8305.7,"end":8307.7,"text":"基本上是這個方式"},{"start":8307.7,"end":8310.7,"text":"如果你都把那個修憲的議程討論呢"},{"start":8310.7,"end":8313.7,"text":"通通放在當年的國會國民大會裡面"},{"start":8313.7,"end":8315.7,"text":"讓國民大會自己代表"},{"start":8315.7,"end":8318.7,"text":"自己來完成這個修憲的方式"},{"start":8318.7,"end":8322.7,"text":"我們可以想見當年如果"},{"start":8322.7,"end":8326.7,"text":"經歷過當年的那個過程的話"},{"start":8326.7,"end":8330.7,"text":"我想這個可能我們這個修憲"},{"start":8330.7,"end":8333.7,"text":"或民主轉型會有很多的困難"},{"start":8333.7,"end":8334.7,"text":"所以這是第一個呢"},{"start":8334.7,"end":8336.7,"text":"就是我談的就是說"},{"start":8336.7,"end":8338.7,"text":"那麼如果要修憲的話"},{"start":8338.7,"end":8340.7,"text":"要談那麼多的修憲議題呢"},{"start":8340.7,"end":8341.7,"text":"那麼可能呢"},{"start":8341.7,"end":8344.7,"text":"一個修憲的一個國事的會議的發動"},{"start":8344.7,"end":8346.7,"text":"可能非常重要"},{"start":8346.7,"end":8350.7,"text":"所以思考比如說中華民國的"},{"start":8353.05,"end":8355.05,"text":"第二共和"},{"start":8355.05,"end":8356.05,"text":"這樣的高度呢"},{"start":8356.05,"end":8360.05,"text":"也許可以讓各個政黨坐下來"},{"start":8360.05,"end":8362.05,"text":"我們會對整個全盤的"},{"start":8362.05,"end":8365.05,"text":"整個憲政的這種議題"},{"start":8365.05,"end":8368.05,"text":"那當然這個知識條件比較困難"},{"start":8368.05,"end":8371.05,"text":"所以我第二點談退休求其次"},{"start":8371.99,"end":8373.99,"text":"就是說在修憲"},{"start":8373.99,"end":8375.99,"text":"任何一條都非常困難的情況之下"},{"start":8375.99,"end":8377.99,"text":"那我們也看到我們現在憲政的確"},{"start":8377.99,"end":8378.99,"text":"發生了一些問題"},{"start":8378.99,"end":8380.99,"text":"運作上發生一些問題"},{"start":8380.99,"end":8382.99,"text":"那我們有沒有什麼方式呢就是說"},{"start":8382.99,"end":8384.99,"text":"在我現在談就是說"},{"start":8384.99,"end":8386.99,"text":"在不修憲的情況之下"},{"start":8386.99,"end":8388.99,"text":"去進行微調"},{"start":8388.99,"end":8391.99,"text":"讓我們這個憲政的運作邏輯呢"},{"start":8391.99,"end":8394.99,"text":"跟它的實務能夠順暢"},{"start":8394.99,"end":8395.99,"text":"所以我想就是說"},{"start":8395.99,"end":8397.99,"text":"就今天大家比較共同談的幾個議題呢"},{"start":8397.99,"end":8400.99,"text":"我逐一來提供我的一些潛見"},{"start":8400.99,"end":8402.99,"text":"第二樣關於我們的這個"},{"start":8402.99,"end":8404.99,"text":"這個總統啊"},{"start":8404.99,"end":8406.99,"text":"跟行政院的關係"},{"start":8409.27,"end":8411.27,"text":"我們大致修憲是取法法國的這個"},{"start":8411.27,"end":8413.27,"text":"半重動制"},{"start":8413.27,"end":8414.27,"text":"但是我們今天看到"},{"start":8414.27,"end":8417.27,"text":"其實那個法國半重動制的運作呢"},{"start":8417.27,"end":8420.27,"text":"現在已經脫離了那個Satory"},{"start":8420.27,"end":8422.27,"text":"或者是"},{"start":8422.66,"end":8425.66,"text":"那個Cafe等等"},{"start":8425.66,"end":8427.66,"text":"他們當年談的那個"},{"start":8427.66,"end":8430.66,"text":"這個亂軌的"},{"start":8430.66,"end":8432.66,"text":"那個軌道"},{"start":8432.66,"end":8434.66,"text":"今天法國的半重動制運作呢"},{"start":8434.66,"end":8438.66,"text":"它其實已經偏向總統為中心了"},{"start":8438.66,"end":8440.66,"text":"那甚至呢"},{"start":8440.66,"end":8442.66,"text":"這個因為總統他有這個自由"},{"start":8442.66,"end":8444.66,"text":"任命的"},{"start":8444.66,"end":8446.66,"text":"任命革魁的這個權力呢"},{"start":8446.66,"end":8450.66,"text":"其實那個所謂尊重國會多數的這種任命呢"},{"start":8450.66,"end":8452.66,"text":"其實這個精神"},{"start":8452.66,"end":8454.66,"text":"已經受到破壞了"},{"start":8454.66,"end":8456.66,"text":"可是法國還是一樣"},{"start":8456.66,"end":8458.66,"text":"它的運作非常非常順暢"},{"start":8458.66,"end":8460.66,"text":"為什麼呢"},{"start":8460.66,"end":8462.66,"text":"主要就是它是總統呢"},{"start":8462.66,"end":8464.66,"text":"它就是政府的中心"},{"start":8464.66,"end":8466.66,"text":"那麼"},{"start":8466.66,"end":8468.66,"text":"這個它的這個總理呢"},{"start":8468.66,"end":8470.66,"text":"基本上就是總統"},{"start":8470.66,"end":8472.66,"text":"它的政治意志的這個執行者"},{"start":8472.66,"end":8474.66,"text":"那總統如何成為整個國家的"},{"start":8474.66,"end":8476.66,"text":"這個領導的中心呢"},{"start":8476.66,"end":8478.66,"text":"它就是總統"},{"start":8478.66,"end":8480.66,"text":"就看前面有先前提到"},{"start":8480.66,"end":8482.66,"text":"總統法國總統他主持國務會議"},{"start":8486.99,"end":8488.99,"text":"在我們現行的制度之下"},{"start":8488.99,"end":8490.99,"text":"我們就打開一條路就好"},{"start":8490.99,"end":8492.99,"text":"讓總統可以出席"},{"start":8492.99,"end":8494.99,"text":"行政院會議"},{"start":8495.67,"end":8497.67,"text":"這個通過這個修改行政院主持法"},{"start":8497.67,"end":8499.67,"text":"讓那個"},{"start":8499.67,"end":8501.67,"text":"總統出席行政院會議"},{"start":8501.67,"end":8503.67,"text":"那麼這個呢"},{"start":8503.67,"end":8505.67,"text":"成為我們一個制度"},{"start":8505.67,"end":8507.67,"text":"那麼總統的一個決策呢"},{"start":8507.67,"end":8509.67,"text":"他就可以怎麼樣跨"},{"start":8509.67,"end":8511.67,"text":"他就可以直接"},{"start":8511.67,"end":8513.67,"text":"秉持他的這個直接民選的這種"},{"start":8513.67,"end":8515.67,"text":"爭鬥性跟我們的內閣的"},{"start":8515.67,"end":8517.67,"text":"這些部會首長共同來討論"},{"start":8517.67,"end":8519.67,"text":"他的政見的落實的問題"},{"start":8519.67,"end":8521.67,"text":"那當總統日理萬機"},{"start":8521.67,"end":8523.67,"text":"他不見得每次行政院會議都參加"},{"start":8523.67,"end":8525.67,"text":"所以就可以像法國"},{"start":8525.67,"end":8527.67,"text":"的這種做法"},{"start":8527.67,"end":8529.67,"text":"總統不參加的時候就是由"},{"start":8529.67,"end":8531.67,"text":"行政院院長來主持"},{"start":8531.67,"end":8533.67,"text":"所以這是一個就讓"},{"start":8533.67,"end":8535.67,"text":"總統的重大的決策呢在行政院會議"},{"start":8535.67,"end":8537.67,"text":"當中呢他也可以讓"},{"start":8537.67,"end":8539.67,"text":"我們的行政院的部會"},{"start":8539.67,"end":8541.67,"text":"的個人可以了解"},{"start":8541.67,"end":8543.67,"text":"這個我想過去李登輝"},{"start":8543.67,"end":8545.67,"text":"這個總統的任內"},{"start":8545.67,"end":8547.67,"text":"他很多決策呢行政院"},{"start":8547.67,"end":8549.67,"text":"院長可能都搞不清楚"},{"start":8549.67,"end":8551.67,"text":"他突然在媒體上放出來"},{"start":8551.67,"end":8553.67,"text":"這是過去的一個教訓"},{"start":8553.67,"end":8555.67,"text":"當然是"},{"start":8555.67,"end":8557.67,"text":"國民黨是一個"},{"start":8557.67,"end":8559.67,"text":"這個全面執政的這種狀態"},{"start":8559.67,"end":8561.67,"text":"他可以控制的了局面"},{"start":8561.67,"end":8563.67,"text":"可是今天不是我們國家"},{"start":8563.67,"end":8565.67,"text":"政黨生態不是這個樣子"},{"start":8569.39,"end":8571.39,"text":"好那是第一點那麼第二點呢"},{"start":8572.28,"end":8574.28,"text":"就是說行政院長的任命"},{"start":8574.28,"end":8576.28,"text":"這個要由"},{"start":8576.28,"end":8578.28,"text":"國會同意啊我覺得現在"},{"start":8578.28,"end":8580.28,"text":"還是有些困難"},{"start":8580.28,"end":8582.28,"text":"這也要問修憲的問題"},{"start":8582.28,"end":8584.28,"text":"但是我們要看喔美國"},{"start":8584.28,"end":8586.28,"text":"時事總統制美國的"},{"start":8586.28,"end":8588.28,"text":"部會首長大使"},{"start":8588.28,"end":8590.28,"text":"將軍都要總統任命"},{"start":8590.28,"end":8592.28,"text":"他們呢其實每一個"},{"start":8592.28,"end":8594.28,"text":"任命並不是總統制意的"},{"start":8594.28,"end":8596.28,"text":"他擺誰就擺誰"},{"start":8596,"end":8598,"text":"他每個都要經過國會的聽證制度"},{"start":8599.63,"end":8601.63,"t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去微調"},{"start":8802.67,"end":8804.67,"text":"最後談到就是說總統"},{"start":8804.67,"end":8806.67,"text":"的國情諮詢國情報告"},{"start":8806.67,"end":8808.67,"text":"其實呢是和"},{"start":8809.64,"end":8811.64,"text":"那是總統制"},{"start":8811.63,"end":8813.63,"text":"自下總統作為國家的這個行政"},{"start":8813.63,"end":8815.63,"text":"這個權權的中心"},{"start":8815.63,"end":8817.63,"text":"他跟國會"},{"start":8817.63,"end":8819.63,"text":"那個去"},{"start":8819.63,"end":8821.63,"text":"那個對話溝通很重要的機制"},{"start":8821.63,"end":8823.63,"text":"可是我們現在"},{"start":8823.82,"end":8825.82,"text":"我們原來憲法當中"},{"start":8825.82,"end":8827.82,"text":"這個功能是由這個"},{"start":8827.82,"end":8829.82,"text":"行政院院長的施政報告"},{"start":8829.82,"end":8831.82,"text":"來取代"},{"start":8831.82,"end":8833.82,"text":"當然現在我們現在總統是國家的中心"},{"start":8833.82,"end":8835.82,"text":"所以我認為呢"},{"start":8835.82,"end":8837.82,"text":"讓總統來面對國會我們既然"},{"start":8837.82,"end":8839.82,"text":"我看前面談到我們贊同"},{"start":8839.82,"end":8841.82,"text":"讓國會讓總統進入到"},{"start":8841.82,"end":8843.82,"text":"行政院會議就沒有理由"},{"start":8843.82,"end":8845.82,"text":"拒絕讓總統"},{"start":8845.82,"end":8847.82,"text":"進入到國會跟所有"},{"start":8847.82,"end":8849.82,"text":"的這個民選的"},{"start":8849.82,"end":8851.82,"text":"國會議員代表民意來直接面對"},{"start":8851.82,"end":8853.82,"text":"溝通"},{"start":8853.82,"end":8855.82,"text":"但是我們要知道就是說"},{"start":8855.82,"end":8857.82,"text":"這個我們現在制度呢行政院還是"},{"start":8857.82,"end":8859.82,"text":"國家最高行政中心這個運作"},{"start":8859.82,"end":8861.82,"text":"這個精神要維持"},{"start":8861.82,"end":8863.82,"text":"那麼總統呢作為國家的這個團結"},{"start":8863.82,"end":8865.82,"text":"的象徵呢他的這個總統的"},{"start":8865.82,"end":8867.82,"text":"尊嚴我們要適度要給予"},{"start":8867.82,"end":8869.82,"text":"這種維護所以呢"},{"start":8869.82,"end":8871.82,"text":"剛才前面有老師提到說"},{"start":8871.82,"end":8873.82,"text":"這國情諮詢總統的國情諮詢報告"},{"start":8873.82,"end":8875.82,"text":"讓總統報告完之後呢"},{"start":8875.82,"end":8877.82,"text":"這個立法委員"},{"start":8877.82,"end":8879.82,"text":"他不是這個"},{"start":8879.82,"end":8881.82,"text":"這種質詢不是他最後"},{"start":8881.82,"end":8883.82,"text":"一個綜合的那麼對總統的"},{"start":8883.82,"end":8885.82,"text":"報告提出提出批評"},{"start":8885.82,"end":8887.82,"text":"提出見解這可能是"},{"start":8887.82,"end":8889.82,"text":"現行制度比較好的做法"},{"start":8889.82,"end":8891.82,"text":"那其他呢就"},{"start":8891.82,"end":8893.82,"text":"讓這個行政院長來"},{"start":8893.82,"end":8895.82,"text":"當來"},{"start":8895.21,"end":8897.21,"text":"因為他是總統的執行者"},{"start":8897.21,"end":8899.21,"text":"所以讓行政院長來接受質詢"},{"start":8899.21,"end":8901.21,"text":"來檢驗"},{"start":8901.21,"end":8903.21,"text":"總統的報告國情報告當中"},{"start":8903.21,"end":8905.21,"text":"他的一些政治承諾"},{"start":8905.21,"end":8907.21,"text":"這個就回到我們"},{"start":8907.21,"end":8909.21,"text":"現行的這種現正制度當中運作"},{"start":8909.21,"end":8911.21,"text":"所以我想這個是"},{"start":8911.21,"end":8913.21,"text":"這個現在我們的國會"},{"start":8913.21,"end":8915.21,"text":"是可以去透過修法"},{"start":8915.21,"end":8917.21,"text":"去實現完成"},{"start":8917.21,"end":8919.21,"text":"的現正制度的"},{"start":8919.21,"end":8921.21,"text":"這種微調不用碰到"},{"start":8921.21,"end":8923.21,"text":"修憲謝謝"},{"start":8924.58,"end":8926.58,"text":"好謝謝曾俊源副教授的發言"},{"start":8926.58,"end":8928.58,"text":"接下來請彭景鵬"},{"start":8928.58,"end":8930.58,"text":"副教授送台發言"},{"start":8937.91,"end":8939.91,"text":"主席蔡委員"},{"start":8939.91,"end":8941.91,"text":"以及在場的各位"},{"start":8941.91,"end":8943.91,"text":"大家好"},{"start":8943.91,"end":8945.91,"text":"時間很短所以我發言"},{"start":8945.91,"end":8947.91,"text":"重點只有三項"},{"start":8947.73,"end":8949.73,"text":"第一個是應該朝國會制的"},{"start":8949.73,"end":8951.73,"text":"現正體制來修憲第二個"},{"start":8952.39,"end":8954.39,"text":"考試院全責改立行政院"},{"start":8954.39,"end":8956.39,"text":"第三個監察院"},{"start":8956.39,"end":8958.39,"text":"全責改立立法院"},{"start":8959.1,"end":8961.1,"text":"剛剛聽了非常多的意見"},{"start":8961.1,"end":8963.1,"text":"我是這樣想的"},{"start":8963.1,"end":8965.1,"text":"修憲是一個非常高層次的問題"},{"start":8966.44,"end":8968.44,"text":"那麼也需要有非常好的"},{"start":8968.44,"end":8970.44,"text":"現正修憲的一個窗口"},{"start":8972.05,"end":8974.05,"text":"那這一次所提出的這些案子呢"},{"start":8974.05,"end":8976.05,"text":"基本上在我看"},{"start":8976.05,"end":8978.05,"text":"大概都是沒有可行性的"},{"start":8978.05,"end":8980.05,"text":"因為總統不會要的"},{"start":8982.39,"end":8984.39,"text":"那你就沒有可行性你彈了也是白彈"},{"start":8985.38,"end":8987.38,"text":"當年97修憲的時候"},{"start":8987.38,"end":8989.38,"text":"是因為有一個政治的強人"},{"start":8989.38,"end":8991.38,"text":"能夠促成政黨合作"},{"start":8991.38,"end":8993.38,"text":"才有辦法完成修憲"},{"start":8993.38,"end":8995.38,"text":"那今天我們在談說"},{"start":8995.38,"end":8997.38,"text":"這個行政院院長"},{"start":8997.38,"end":8999.38,"text":"要立法院同意可不可能"},{"start":8999.38,"end":9001.38,"text":"百分之百不可能"},{"start":9001.95,"end":9003.95,"text":"可是呢如果我們回顧歷史"},{"start":9003.95,"end":9005.95,"text":"就會發現到"},{"start":9005.95,"end":9007.95,"text":"當初為什麼把這個"},{"start":9007.95,"end":9009.95,"text":"行政院長必須立法院同意"},{"start":9009.95,"end":9011.95,"text":"這件事情給拿掉呢"},{"start":9011.95,"end":9013.95,"text":"最主要的原因很簡單"},{"start":9013.95,"end":9015.95,"text":"就是因為總統提名的"},{"start":9015.95,"end":9017.95,"text":"行政院長在立法院"},{"sta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權力分立"},{"start":9533.32,"end":9535.32,"text":"部門制衡的問題"},{"start":9535.32,"end":9537.32,"text":"有時候我們會說像考監純費"},{"start":9537.32,"end":9539.32,"text":"或是各位的同意權"},{"start":9539.32,"end":9541.32,"text":"可是憲法一直非常重要的"},{"start":9541.32,"end":9543.32,"text":"核心的價值理念"},{"start":9543.32,"end":9545.32,"text":"就是人權 人權清單"},{"start":9545.32,"end":9547.32,"text":"其實在每一次的討論中"},{"start":9547.32,"end":9549.32,"text":"都是被忽略掉的"},{"start":9549.32,"end":9551.32,"text":"我們修憲修那麼多次"},{"start":9551.32,"end":9553.32,"text":"也沒有真的去修過人權條款"},{"start":9553.32,"end":9555.32,"text":"當然在當年有當年的政治氛圍"},{"start":9555.32,"end":9557.32,"text":"不過就時至今日"},{"start":9557.32,"end":9559.32,"text":"人權條款還是沒有被拿出來討論"},{"start":9559.32,"end":9561.32,"text":"這一點我們覺得很可惜"},{"start":9561.32,"end":9563.32,"text":"尤其是很多的基本權利"},{"start":9563.32,"end":9565.32,"text":"法官 憲法法院"},{"start":9565.32,"end":9567.32,"text":"或者是法院逐步在承認"},{"start":9567.32,"end":9569.32,"text":"不過到憲法上的"},{"start":9569.32,"end":9571.32,"text":"意義跟價值一定有它不一樣的地方"},{"start":9571.32,"end":9573.32,"text":"而且有一些人權"},{"start":9573.32,"end":9575.32,"text":"它其實如果在憲法上沒有明擺的被承認"},{"start":9575.32,"end":9577.32,"text":"它其實很難透過"},{"start":9577.32,"end":9579.32,"text":"解釋方法就直接說"},{"start":9579.32,"end":9581.32,"text":"其實我們憲法上有這樣的權利"},{"start":9581.32,"end":9583.32,"text":"像那種第三代人權"},{"start":9583.32,"end":9585.32,"text":"集體權 民族權 文化權"},{"start":9585.32,"end":9587.32,"text":"政治庇護權 動物權等等"},{"start":9587.32,"end":9589.32,"text":"那其實是需要"},{"start":9589.32,"end":9591.32,"text":"進駐路線的一個過程"},{"start":9591.32,"end":9593.32,"text":"所以我們的人權清單"},{"start":9593.32,"end":9595.32,"text":"其實在民國"},{"start":9595.32,"end":9597.32,"text":"就是憲法本文35年36年"},{"start":9597.32,"end":9601.32,"text":"現在都已經是80多年前的事情了"},{"start":9601.32,"end":9603.32,"text":"那是不是有機會在"},{"start":9603.32,"end":9605.32,"text":"這麼難得難能可貴的時刻"},{"start":9605.32,"end":9607.32,"text":"也被拿進來講"},{"start":9607.32,"end":9609.32,"text":"因為就是各個黨團他們提出的"},{"start":9609.32,"end":9611.32,"text":"大家都很提出的"},{"start":9611.32,"end":9613.32,"text":"寶貴意見中其實這一塊還是被忽視"},{"start":9613.32,"end":9615.32,"text":"我們當然可以像"},{"start":9615.32,"end":9617.32,"text":"過往的討論一樣"},{"start":9617.32,"end":9619.32,"text":"就是先盯著目前最需要解決的問題"},{"start":9619.32,"end":9621.32,"text":"不過我相信人權條款"},{"start":9621.32,"end":9623.32,"text":"一定是一個必須要被解決"},{"start":9623.32,"end":9625.32,"text":"必須要被討論的問題"},{"start":9625.32,"end":9627.32,"text":"那以這個觸發點"},{"start":9627.32,"end":9629.32,"text":"我們回到目前有提的幾個版本的方案"},{"start":9629.32,"end":9631.32,"text":"我認為有一件事情"},{"start":9631.32,"end":9633.32,"text":"可以把這兩個方式接在一起"},{"start":9633.32,"end":9635.32,"text":"在暫時沒有去調整人權清單的前提底下"},{"start":9635.32,"end":9637.32,"text":"就是回到大家一直在討論的"},{"start":9637.32,"end":9639.32,"text":"費考監"},{"start":9639.32,"end":9641.32,"text":"尤其是監察院"},{"start":9641.32,"end":9643.32,"text":"那聽起來費監察院"},{"start":9643.32,"end":9645.32,"text":"應該是各黨團的共識"},{"start":9645.32,"end":9647.32,"text":"費完之後他的權限還在不在"},{"start":9647.32,"end":9649.32,"text":"我認為這個問題"},{"start":9649.32,"end":9651.32,"text":"也可能可以從兩個面向出發"},{"start":9651.32,"end":9653.32,"text":"一個就是設置這個組織"},{"start":9653.32,"end":9655.32,"text":"或這個組織它存在的本質是什麼"},{"start":9655.32,"end":9657.32,"text":"就是它到底是一個本質上"},{"start":9657.32,"end":9659.32,"text":"怎麼樣的權限"},{"start":9659.32,"end":9661.32,"text":"然後再去討論"},{"start":9661.32,"end":9663.32,"text":"它基於這個本質"},{"start":9663.32,"end":9665.32,"text":"它的權限要不要被保留"},{"start":9665.32,"end":9667.32,"text":"被廢除掉還是被移轉"},{"start":9667.32,"end":9669.32,"text":"被分配等等"},{"start":9669.32,"end":9671.32,"text":"那監察院的問題"},{"start":9671.32,"end":9673.32,"text":"我們可以去討論"},{"start":9673.32,"end":9675.32,"text":"被廢除掉還是被廢除掉"},{"start":9675.32,"end":9677.32,"text":"被分配等等"},{"start":9677.32,"end":9679.32,"text":"那監察院的本質還是要回到"},{"start":9679.32,"end":9681.32,"text":"它曾經一度是民意機關"},{"start":9681.32,"end":9683.32,"text":"但是它已經不是了,早就不是了"},{"start":9683.32,"end":9685.32,"text":"那如果我們也沒有打算"},{"start":9685.32,"end":9687.32,"text":"繼續讓它是,看起來也沒有這樣的方向"},{"start":9687.32,"end":9689.32,"text":"所以它一直都是一種"},{"start":9689.32,"end":9691.32,"text":"就是至少我們現在來定義它"},{"start":9691.32,"end":9693.32,"text":"可能比較接近一點準司法機關"},{"start":9693.32,"end":9695.32,"text":"但因為它畢竟不是"},{"start":9695.32,"end":9697.32,"text":"所以準司法機關這個用語"},{"start":9697.32,"end":9699.32,"text":"我覺得可以看出它的本質"},{"start":9699.32,"end":9701.32,"text":"然後根本就可以去想像它的權限該怎麼辦"},{"start":9701.32,"end":9703.32,"text":"那監察院這次做的事情有一點類似"},{"start":9703.32,"end":9705.32,"text":"但又不完全一樣"},{"start":9705.32,"end":9707.32,"text":"是因為,如果我們真的要比較"},{"start":9707.32,"end":9709.32,"text":"它跟法院,跟現場法庭"},{"start":9709.32,"end":9711.32,"text":"還是有個很大的不同"},{"start":9711.32,"end":9713.32,"text":"我覺得它差異在於主被動"},{"start":9713.32,"end":9715.32,"text":"法院處理案件大部分也一樣"},{"start":9715.32,"end":9717.32,"text":"它都是被動不告不理"},{"start":9717.32,"end":9719.32,"text":"可是監察院它有主動權限"},{"start":9719.32,"end":9721.32,"text":"就這一點它當然是跟國會"},{"start":9721.32,"end":9723.32,"text":"跟行政部門的權限是比較"},{"start":9723.32,"end":9725.32,"text":"有它的相似性"},{"start":9725.32,"end":9727.32,"text":"那它又跟檢察官檢察系統"},{"start":9727.32,"end":9729.32,"text":"一個很不一樣的地方是"},{"start":9729.32,"end":9731.32,"text":"它部分還是侷限在"},{"start":9731.32,"end":9733.32,"text":"或是以刑事案件的偵查為主"},{"start":9733.32,"end":9735.32,"text":"但監察院也不限"},{"start":9735.32,"end":9737.32,"text":"就因為如此,我認為監察院如果真的要廢"},{"start":9737.32,"end":9739.32,"text":"它確實有一個"},{"start":9739.32,"end":9741.32,"text":"很值得討論的就是"},{"start":9741.32,"end":9743.32,"text":"那它曾經有的權限"},{"start":9743.32,"end":9745.32,"text":"包括這個人權委員會"},{"start":9745.32,"end":9747.32,"text":"能不能被留著,能夠繼續長成什麼樣子"},{"start":9747.32,"end":9749.32,"text":"所以其實很多國家"},{"start":9749.32,"end":9751.32,"text":"都會有類似人權監察史"},{"start":9751.32,"end":9753.32,"text":"這樣的一個制度設計"},{"start":9753.32,"end":9755.32,"text":"這會不會是我們的考量之一"},{"start":9755.32,"end":9757.32,"text":"就是去架結我剛剛說的"},{"start":9757.32,"end":9759.32,"text":"人權清單沒有辦法再更明確"},{"start":9759.32,"end":9761.32,"text":"沒有辦法被檢討"},{"start":9761.32,"end":9763.32,"text":"但是我們透過組織的調整"},{"start":9763.32,"end":9765.32,"text":"讓人權委員會"},{"start":9765.32,"end":9767.32,"text":"未來說不定可以我們就直接叫它人權院"},{"start":9767.32,"end":9769.32,"text":"一個院的等級,一個憲法機關的等級"},{"start":9769.32,"end":9771.32,"text":"有沒有可能"},{"start":9771.32,"end":9773.32,"text":"同時它可以兼顧個案跟政策"},{"start":9773.32,"end":9775.32,"text":"那個個案指的就是說"},{"start":9775.32,"end":9777.32,"text":"可能會比較類似像現在監察院做彈劾一樣"},{"start":9777.32,"end":9779.32,"text":"它其實是有個案調查"},{"start":9779.32,"end":9781.32,"text":"同時啟動可能性"},{"start":9781.32,"end":9783.32,"text":"只是它啟動的結果可能還是會跑到法院去"},{"start":9783.32,"end":9785.32,"text":"那這是現在司法院它沒有辦法做的"},{"start":9785.32,"end":9787.32,"text":"法院沒有辦法做的"},{"start":9787.32,"end":9789.32,"text":"因為法院的被動性"},{"start":9789.32,"end":9791.32,"text":"同時它兼顧政策"},{"start":9791.32,"end":9793.32,"text":"比如說它有定時對人權報告"},{"start":9793.32,"end":9795.32,"text":"必須要公開,必須要去"},{"start":9795.32,"end":9797.32,"text":"去做各種的研議"},{"start":9797.32,"end":9799.32,"text":"這樣其實很多的民間團體在做"},{"start":9799.32,"end":9801.32,"text":"剛剛有先進教授提出"},{"start":9801.32,"end":9803.32,"text":"其實有一些是應該"},{"start":9803.32,"end":9805.32,"text":"移給或是跟民間一起做合作"},{"start":9805.32,"end":9807.32,"text":"這我也非常的贊同"},{"start":9807.32,"end":9809.32,"text":"但是終究作為一個憲政機關"},{"start":9809.32,"end":9811.32,"text":"跟政府部門跟純粹民間做"},{"start":9811.32,"end":9813.32,"text":"它的力道,它的意義"},{"start":9813.32,"end":9815.32,"text":"跟政策推動的面向"},{"start":9815.32,"end":9817.32,"text":"力氣還是會不太一樣"},{"start":9817.32,"end":9819.32,"text":"所以如果在人權委員會"},{"start":9819.32,"end":9821.32,"text":"它仍舊有這樣的意義跟價值"},{"start":9821.32,"end":9823.32,"text":"它是不是有可能被暴露"},{"start":9823.32,"end":9825.32,"text":"然後不是監察院"},{"start":9825.32,"end":9827.32,"text":"不過在監察院下,監察院被廢掉"},{"start":9827.32,"end":9829.32,"text":"同時用一個人權院的角度去看它"},{"start":9829.32,"end":9831.32,"text":"那這個時候"},{"start":9831.32,"end":9833.32,"text":"我們當然有很多的"},{"start":9833.32,"end":9835.32,"text":"討論選項,我們在議案的過程"},{"start":9835.32,"end":9837.32,"text":"還有剛剛先進也有提出"},{"start":9837.32,"end":9839.32,"text":"比如說要不要讓它獨立機關化"},{"start":9839.32,"end":9841.32,"text":"還是同樣的功能能夠回到國會"},{"start":9841.32,"end":9843.32,"text":"然後能夠回到司法權"},{"start":9843.32,"end":9845.32,"text":"不過就如同我剛剛說的"},{"start":9845.32,"end":9847.32,"text":"其實回到司法權會有被動性的限制"},{"start":9847.32,"end":9849.32,"text":"那回到國會,國會的本質"},{"start":9849.32,"end":9851.32,"text":"它處理應該是法案預算中相對通案"},{"start":9851.32,"end":9853.32,"text":"它很難,也不太應該是處理個案"},{"start":9853.32,"end":9855.32,"text":"那回到行政部門"},{"start":9855.32,"end":9857.32,"text":"即使獨立機關"},{"start":9857.32,"end":9859.32,"text":"它還是會有泛政治化的權限"},{"start":9859.32,"end":9861.32,"text":"所以大家可能有時候都會覺得說"},{"start":9861.32,"end":9863.32,"text":"人權有需要到一個院嗎"},{"start":9863.32,"end":9865.32,"text":"然後它只做這件事情"},{"start":9865.32,"end":9867.32,"text":"會不會有點太少"},{"start":9867.32,"end":9869.32,"text":"行政院做這麼多事"},{"start":9869.32,"end":9871.32,"text":"司法院需要做這麼多事"},{"start":9871.32,"end":9873.32,"text":"然後跟它看起來平起平坐"},{"start":9873.32,"end":9875.32,"text":"互相監督制衡的一個院"},{"start":9875.32,"end":9877.32,"text":"卻只做人權處理"},{"start":9877.32,"end":9879.32,"text":"有需要到院的等級嗎"},{"start":9879.32,"end":9881.32,"text":"有需要到憲法機關的等級嗎"},{"start":9881.32,"end":9883.32,"text":"我認為這個問題其實就是回到一個"},{"start":9883.32,"end":9885.32,"text":"根本的核心是"},{"start":9885.32,"end":9887.32,"text":"那我們把人權看得多重要"},{"start":9887.84,"end":9889.84,"text":"其實我們作為一個人權立國憲政主義的國家"},{"start":9889.84,"end":9891.84,"text":"我其實想不到比這個更重要的事情"},{"start":9891.84,"end":9893.84,"text":"所以把人權作為一個院"},{"start":9893.84,"end":9895.84,"text":"一點都不荒謬,一點都不奇怪"},{"start":9895.84,"end":9897.84,"text":"當然它的細部設計"},{"start":9897.84,"end":9899.84,"text":"一定是可以再被討論"},{"start":9899.84,"end":9901.84,"text":"這有沒有可能會不會是我們"},{"start":9901.84,"end":9903.84,"text":"費考監,尤其是監察院"},{"start":9903.84,"end":9905.84,"text":"的另外一個可能性"},{"start":9905.84,"end":9907.84,"text":"所以我的這個"},{"start":9907.84,"end":9909.84,"text":"基本的方向結論就是"},{"start":9909.84,"end":9911.84,"text":"希望說人權清單可以被重視"},{"start":9911.84,"end":9913.84,"text":"那在短時間如果不可得"},{"start":9913.84,"end":9915.84,"text":"因為畢竟這是一個很難得的討論"},{"start":9915.84,"end":9917.84,"text":"的修憲時刻"},{"start":9917.84,"end":9919.84,"text":"如果我們有繼續這樣討論下去"},{"start":9919.84,"end":9921.84,"text":"重點放在政府組織的調整"},{"start":9921.84,"end":9923.84,"text":"重點放在憲政機關的"},{"start":9923.84,"end":9925.84,"text":"改革設計"},{"start":9925.84,"end":9927.84,"text":"是不是有可能在人權清單沒有辦法"},{"start":9927.84,"end":9929.84,"text":"透過修憲去確認擴張"},{"start":9929.84,"end":9931.84,"text":"去調整,去廢除監察院"},{"start":9931.84,"end":9933.84,"text":"的同時,讓人權委員會"},{"start":9933.84,"end":9935.84,"text":"可以憲法機關化"},{"start":9935.84,"end":9937.84,"text":"這是我提出的一些小小的建議"},{"start":9937.84,"end":9939.84,"text":"我先講到這邊"},{"start":9939.84,"end":9941.84,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9943.07,"end":9945.07,"text":"好,謝謝李學和律師的發言"},{"start":9945.07,"end":9947.07,"text":"接下來有請"},{"start":9947.07,"end":9949.07,"text":"盛子龍院長上台發言"},{"start":9956.23,"end":9958.23,"text":"主席還有我們各位先進"},{"start":9960.18,"end":9962.18,"text":"非常榮幸能夠因我們"},{"start":9963.37,"end":9965.37,"text":"民眾黨團的邀請來這邊對修憲"},{"start":9965.37,"end":9967.37,"text":"以一個公民的身份提一些想法"},{"start":9969.16,"end":9971.16,"text":"我覺得在台灣講到憲法"},{"start":9971.96,"end":9973.96,"text":"連我做的計程車司機都跟我講很多"},{"start":9973.96,"end":9975.96,"text":"人人都有意見"},{"start":9975.96,"end":9977.96,"text":"但人人意見都不同"},{"start":9977.96,"end":9979.96,"text":"所以他修憲的難度真的是"},{"start":9980.87,"end":9982.87,"text":"數到難,修憲更難"},{"start":9984.72,"end":9986.72,"text":"好,那以下是我個人"},{"start":9986.72,"end":9988.72,"text":"剛才林丁有很多先進的說法"},{"start":9988.72,"end":9990.72,"text":"也看到台灣這幾年"},{"start":9990.72,"end":9992.72,"text":"各種修憲的構想提出"},{"start":9992.72,"end":9994.72,"text":"我個人小小的"},{"start":9994.72,"end":9996.72,"text":"兩個想法來分享"},{"start":9996.72,"end":9998.72,"text":"第一個就是說"},{"start":9998.72,"end":10000.72,"text":"談修憲,大方向一定要先講清楚"},{"start":10002,"end":10004,"text":"因為世界各國的憲法五花八門"},{"start":10005.69,"end":10007.69,"text":"我們要隨意隨機的拼裝"},{"start":10007.69,"end":10009.69,"text":"到最後會出現一個很奇怪的制度"},{"start":10009.69,"end":10011.69,"text":"所以"},{"start":10011.69,"end":10013.69,"text":"到底我們要什麼大方向"},{"start":10014.13,"end":10016.13,"text":"舉例來講我們這次的提案"},{"start":10016.29,"end":10018.29,"text":"很多地方在大方向看起來是矛盾"},{"start":10019.55,"end":10021.55,"text":"比如說我們要有行政院長的同意權"},{"start":10021.55,"end":10023.55,"text":"要回歸立法院"},{"start":10024.76,"end":10026.76,"text":"我們看到要美國總統制的國情報告"},{"start":10028.64,"end":10030.64,"text":"我們又看到了"},{"start":10030.64,"end":10032.64,"text":"一些要對總統的罷免制度"},{"start":10032.64,"end":10034.64,"text":"這我看起來"},{"start":10034.64,"end":10036.64,"text":"我個人覺得還蠻錯亂的就是說"},{"start":10036.64,"end":10038.64,"text":"這個都是在大方向不同的情況下"},{"start":10038.64,"end":10040.64,"text":"的一些細部運作"},{"start":10040.64,"end":10042.64,"text":"具體操作不同的問題"},{"start":10042.64,"end":10044.64,"text":"所以還是要回到本質"},{"start":10044.64,"end":10046.64,"text":"剛才其實"},{"start":10046.64,"end":10048.64,"text":"特別是我們彭教授特別提到"},{"start":10048.64,"end":10050.64,"text":"就是說"},{"start":10050.64,"end":10052.64,"text":"那個大方向如果不先講好的話"},{"start":10053.89,"end":10055.89,"text":"跟他講的越講越亂了"},{"start":10055.89,"end":10057.89,"text":"所以到底我們要什麼"},{"start":10057.89,"end":10059.89,"text":"我覺得這個東西要先講清楚"},{"start":10061.07,"end":10063.07,"text":"那從五權跟變三線"},{"start":10063.07,"end":10065.07,"text":"或者是說行政立法權的變動"},{"start":10065.07,"end":10067.07,"text":"這基本上就是大方向的問題"},{"start":10068.21,"end":10070.21,"text":"那其中一個比較簡單的就是"},{"start":10070.21,"end":10072.21,"text":"有關考試權跟監察權"},{"start":10072.21,"end":10074.21,"text":"要不要廢除之後"},{"start":10074.21,"end":10076.21,"text":"回歸"},{"start":10075.25,"end":10077.25,"text":"三權憲法"},{"start":10076.77,"end":10078.77,"text":"這個目前不管在社會上也好"},{"start":10078.77,"end":10080.77,"text":"或是今天的學者專家來講"},{"start":10080.77,"end":10082.77,"text":"其實共識性比較強"},{"start":10082.77,"end":10084.77,"text":"而且他是少見的是跨黨派的立委的提案"},{"start":10084.77,"end":10086.77,"text":"好像在各黨派之間"},{"start":10086.77,"end":10088.77,"text":"也存在著一定的共識"},{"start":10088.77,"end":10090.77,"text":"覺得這是可以做的"},{"start":10090.57,"end":10092.57,"text":"好,那如果大方向決定要往這個做的話"},{"start":10092.57,"end":10094.57,"text":"其實"},{"start":10094.57,"end":10096.57,"text":"運作細節上面有幾個地方可能小心一點"},{"start":10096.57,"end":10098.57,"text":"第一個就是說"},{"start":10098.57,"end":10100.57,"text":"考試權的廢除"},{"start":10100.57,"end":10102.57,"text":"回歸行政權看似簡單"},{"start":10103.75,"end":10105.75,"text":"但可能有個問題"},{"start":10105.75,"end":10107.75,"text":"一直被過去"},{"start":10107.75,"end":10109.75,"text":"包括我常常看到的就是被忽略掉"},{"start":10109.75,"end":10111.75,"text":"就是說,其實我們大法官在"},{"start":10111.75,"end":10113.75,"text":"四至六八二解釋開始就強調"},{"start":10114.42,"end":10116.42,"text":"考試權不是一般的行政權"},{"start":10116.42,"end":10118.42,"text":"他是五權分離下獨立的行政權"},{"start":10118.42,"end":10120.42,"text":"本質上又跟一般的行政權不一樣"},{"start":10122.5,"end":10124.5,"text":"因此他給他比較大的法規制定行程的空間"},{"start":10124.5,"end":10126.5,"text":"這學過法律就知道"},{"start":10126.5,"end":10128.5,"text":"對人民基本的選擇干預"},{"start":10128.5,"end":10130.5,"text":"要遵守法律保留原則"},{"start":10130.5,"end":10132.5,"text":"可是考試院定的規則"},{"start":10132.5,"end":10134.5,"text":"只要遵守最低度的法律保留原則"},{"start":10134.5,"end":10136.5,"text":"也就是一個典式法規定"},{"start":10138.23,"end":10140.23,"text":"很空泛,空白授權"},{"start":10140.23,"end":10142.23,"text":"接下來要怎麼考"},{"start":10142.23,"end":10144.23,"text":"就是考試院說了算"},{"start":10144.23,"end":10146.23,"text":"這個是台灣才有的喔"},{"start":10146.23,"end":10148.23,"text":"我舉個德國校法案的例子"},{"start":10148.23,"end":10150.23,"text":"德國過去的醫生考試是考生論題"},{"start":10150.23,"end":10152.23,"text":"後來改成測驗題"},{"start":10151.05,"end":10153.05,"text":"結果呢,就被德國縣法院宣告違憲"},{"start":10153.05,"end":10157.05,"text":"為什麼呢?因為考試方式的改革"},{"start":10157.05,"end":10159.05,"text":"涉及人民職業自由的重大限制"},{"start":10159.05,"end":10161.05,"text":"因此沒有法律具體授權"},{"start":10161.05,"end":10163.05,"text":"用空白授權是不可以的"},{"start":10163.05,"end":10165.05,"text":"所以未來如果我們的考試權"},{"start":10165.05,"end":10167.05,"text":"回到行政權"},{"start":10167.05,"end":10169.05,"text":"本土化的問題就是"},{"start":10169.05,"end":10171.05,"text":"法律保留會是難關"},{"start":10171.05,"end":10173.05,"text":"我覺得就是說,這個東西"},{"start":10173.05,"end":10175.05,"text":"要先講清楚就是說"},{"start":10175.05,"end":10177.05,"text":"大方向決定了"},{"start":10177.05,"end":10179.05,"text":"可是運作一定要有沙盤推演"},{"start":10179.05,"end":10181.05,"text":"本土化的法治環境會遇到什麼問題"},{"start":10182.05,"end":10184.05,"text":"我們可以把現在問題丟上來"},{"start":10184.05,"end":10186.05,"text":"那個可以解決嗎?"},{"start":10186.05,"end":10188.05,"text":"如果不能解決,我們要再更多細部的思維"},{"start":10189.93,"end":10191.93,"text":"監察權也是類似的問題"},{"start":10191.93,"end":10193.93,"text":"剛才我們很多的先進專家提到"},{"start":10193.93,"end":10195.93,"text":"監察權要回歸到國會"},{"start":10195.93,"end":10197.93,"text":"好,這裡面有個簡單的問題就是說"},{"start":10197.93,"end":10199.93,"text":"監察權現在也蠻多項"},{"start":10202.12,"end":10204.12,"text":"它有些其實超過一般"},{"start":10204.63,"end":10206.63,"text":"民主國家國會的權限"},{"start":10206.63,"end":10208.63,"text":"那是都要保留呢?"},{"start":10208.63,"end":10210.63,"text":"還是哪些要刪掉,哪些要保留"},{"start":10210.63,"end":10212.63,"text":"這個要先講清楚"},{"start":10212.63,"end":10214.63,"text":"坦白說,糾正權這種事情"},{"start":10214.63,"end":10216.63,"text":"我覺得那就不要留了啦"},{"start":10216.63,"end":10218.63,"text":"我們國會管這種小事的糾正"},{"start":10218.63,"end":10220.63,"text":"對小官的那種"},{"start":10220.63,"end":10222.63,"text":"人事的那種糾集"},{"start":10222.63,"end":10224.63,"text":"真的也是太多餘啦"},{"start":10224.63,"end":10226.63,"text":"國會要管大的官員"},{"start":10226.65,"end":10228.65,"text":"那接下來問題就來了"},{"start":10228.65,"end":10230.65,"text":"剛才有先進提到說"},{"start":10230.65,"end":10232.65,"text":"其實監察權不一定要留在我們的國會"},{"start":10232.65,"end":10234.65,"text":"甚至到司法權都行"},{"start":10234.65,"end":10236.65,"text":"我只提一個簡單的問題"},{"start":10236.65,"end":10238.65,"text":"在本土的法治環境底下"},{"start":10238.57,"end":10240.57,"text":"如果像總統或者未來的行政院長"},{"start":10240.57,"end":10242.57,"text":"不管首長是歸誰"},{"start":10243.02,"end":10245.02,"text":"家裡發生重大的違法的行為"},{"start":10246.41,"end":10248.41,"text":"我們現有的司法體制可不可以期待"},{"start":10251.12,"end":10253.12,"text":"這個就是為什麼"},{"start":10253.12,"end":10255.12,"text":"希望有些國會有談和權的原因"},{"start":10255.12,"end":10257.12,"text":"它是針對那種超級大的官員"},{"start":10257.12,"end":10259.12,"text":"司法權"},{"start":10259.12,"end":10261.12,"text":"有時候在檢查一體的情況下"},{"start":10261.12,"end":10263.12,"text":"出不了手的時候"},{"start":10263.12,"end":10265.12,"text":"其實韓國不就是最典型的例子嗎?"},{"start":10265.12,"end":10267.12,"text":"我們看韓國運作"},{"start":10267.12,"end":10269.12,"text":"不就是這樣子"},{"start":10269.12,"end":10271.12,"text":"其實很多對總統的一些重大的犯罪"},{"start":10271.12,"end":10273.12,"text":"或者違法"},{"start":10273.12,"end":10275.12,"text":"其實還是由國會來發動"},{"start":10275.12,"end":10277.12,"text":"誰是主動"},{"start":10277.12,"end":10279.12,"text":"我們司法機關有這樣"},{"start":10279.12,"end":10281.12,"text":"所以在討論這個問題的時候"},{"start":10281.12,"end":10283.12,"text":"沒有本土法治的思考"},{"start":10283.12,"end":10285.12,"text":"只是把外國怎樣"},{"start":10285.12,"end":10287.12,"text":"排機組合"},{"start":10287.12,"end":10289.12,"text":"隨機組合"},{"start":10289.12,"end":10291.12,"text":"一下學這個"},{"start":10291.12,"end":10293.12,"text":"我覺得未必能夠解決本土法治環境的問題"},{"start":10293.12,"end":10295.12,"text":"回過頭來"},{"start":10295.08,"end":10297.08,"text":"格葵同意權其實也是一個很大的問題"},{"start":10297.08,"end":10299.08,"text":"首先第一個大方向要搞清楚"},{"start":10299.08,"end":10301.08,"text":"我們到底要什麼"},{"start":10301.16,"end":10303.16,"text":"我們是要往總統日走呢?"},{"start":10303.32,"end":10305.32,"text":"往內閣自走呢?"},{"start":10305.32,"end":10307.32,"text":"還是往雙首長自走?"},{"start":10306.98,"end":10308.98,"text":"這個大方向不決定"},{"start":10308.97,"end":10310.97,"text":"那這個東西決定不下來"},{"start":10311.16,"end":10313.16,"text":"這個東西其實坦白說"},{"start":10313.16,"end":10315.16,"text":"憲政改革水最深的就是這個地方"},{"start":10315.16,"end":10317.16,"text":"因為這涉及到"},{"start":10317.16,"end":10319.16,"text":"講白一點"},{"start":10319.16,"end":10321.16,"text":"權力歸誰"},{"start":10320.51,"end":10322.51,"text":"所以各黨各派各朝野"},{"start":10323.35,"end":10325.35,"text":"我恐怕各有各自的想法"},{"start":10325.35,"end":10327.35,"text":"這個地方可能是最分歧"},{"start":10327.35,"end":10329.35,"text":"也最難有共識的"},{"start":10329.35,"end":10331.35,"text":"但是其實卻是憲改"},{"start":10330.79,"end":10332.79,"text":"真正不可迴避的"},{"start":10332.79,"end":10334.79,"text":"真正的水深"},{"start":10334.79,"end":10336.79,"text":"但重中之重不能迴避的"},{"start":10336.79,"end":10338.79,"text":"其實反而是這個地方"},{"start":10338.79,"end":10340.79,"text":"但共識卻最難達成"},{"start":10340.79,"end":10342.79,"text":"我這邊只簡單提一下我個人一些"},{"start":10342.79,"end":10344.79,"text":"粗淺的想法就是說"},{"start":10344.76,"end":10346.76,"text":"如果今天往內閣自走"},{"start":10346.76,"end":10348.76,"text":"他會遇到什麼問題?"},{"start":10348.86,"end":10350.86,"text":"在台灣總統向來"},{"start":10353.05,"end":10355.05,"text":"是民眾心中的行政最高首長"},{"start":10355.05,"end":10357.05,"text":"這樣的一個長期的政治期待底下"},{"start":10360.91,"end":10362.91,"text":"要把總統虛位元首化"},{"start":10364.59,"end":10366.59,"text":"不是不可啦"},{"start":10366.59,"end":10368.59,"text":"但是除了要說服公民之外"},{"start":10368.59,"end":10370.59,"text":"現有的規定很多都要重新調整"},{"start":10370.59,"end":10372.59,"text":"也不是只有改一個條文就夠了"},{"start":10372.59,"end":10374.59,"text":"他可能要改很多條文"},{"start":10375.05,"end":10377.05,"text":"第二個,雙首長制"},{"start":10377.05,"end":10379.05,"text":"其實法國的雙首長制"},{"start":10379.05,"end":10381.05,"text":"相當程度建立在"},{"start":10381.11,"end":10383.11,"text":"當時幾位總統的政治智慧"},{"start":10383.11,"end":10385.11,"text":"跟運作的技巧上面"},{"start":10385.11,"end":10387.11,"text":"他其實操作起來難度很高"},{"start":10387.11,"end":10389.11,"text":"以台灣來講"},{"start":10389.11,"end":10391.11,"text":"如果是用雙首長制保留隔閡同意權"},{"start":10391.11,"end":10393.11,"text":"我舉一個例子在國外不會發生"},{"start":10393.11,"end":10395.11,"text":"在台灣發生的本土環境,比如說"},{"start":10395.76,"end":10397.76,"text":"行政院長管經貿嘛"},{"start":10397.76,"end":10399.76,"text":"總統管國家安全"},{"start":10399.76,"end":10401.76,"text":"請問兩岸問題是涉及哪一部分呢?"},{"start":10401.76,"end":10403.76,"text":"我們兩岸的經貿開放"},{"start":10403.76,"end":10405.76,"text":"是涉及國家安全"},{"start":10405.76,"end":10407.76,"text":"歸總統管還是歸行政院長管呢?"},{"start":10407.76,"end":10409.76,"text":"將來會不會在雙首長制上底下"},{"start":10409.76,"end":10411.76,"text":"台灣出現一個全世界"},{"start":10411.76,"end":10413.76,"text":"沒有發生過的情況就是"},{"start":10413.76,"end":10415.76,"text":"我們行政院長跟總統也幹起來了"},{"start":10415.76,"end":10417.76,"text":"會不會?"},{"start":10417.34,"end":10419.34,"text":"我覺得會"},{"start":10419.34,"end":10421.34,"text":"就是說未來如果總統"},{"start":10421.34,"end":10423.34,"text":"在兩岸方面跟我們"},{"start":10423.57,"end":10425.57,"text":"未來如果有新的多數長"},{"start":10425.57,"end":10427.57,"text":"那麼產生的這種行政首長"},{"start":10427.57,"end":10429.57,"text":"在兩岸上面基本上是完全對立的時候"},{"start":10429.57,"end":10431.57,"text":"可能很多經貿他們也是相反的"},{"start":10431.57,"end":10433.57,"text":"那未來怎麼運作呢?"},{"start":10433.57,"end":10435.57,"text":"天無二日啊"},{"start":10435.57,"end":10437.57,"text":"這個不是講外國制度怎麼學習啊"},{"start":10437.57,"end":10439.57,"text":"不考慮本土法制的特殊困境"},{"start":10439.57,"end":10441.57,"text":"我覺得都是治安難行"},{"start":10441.57,"end":10443.57,"text":"以上請供參考"},{"start":10445.49,"end":10447.49,"text":"好我們謝謝盛紫龍院長的發言"},{"start":10447.49,"end":10449.49,"text":"那現在所有選手專家"},{"start":10449.49,"end":10451.49,"text":"跟登記委員都已經發言完畢"},{"start":10451.49,"end":10453.49,"text":"那接下來我們進行第二輪的發言"},{"start":10453.49,"end":10455.49,"text":"我們採自由發言"},{"start":10455.49,"end":10457.49,"text":"每個人三分鐘"},{"start":10457.49,"end":10459.49,"text":"請問是不是還有選手專家"},{"start":10459.49,"end":10461.49,"text":"願意提供我們寶貴的意見"},{"start":10461.49,"end":10463.49,"text":"還有"},{"start":10463.49,"end":10465.49,"text":"那我們就先請那個"},{"start":10465.49,"end":10467.49,"text":"曾建源"},{"start":10467.49,"end":10469.49,"text":"曾副教授"},{"start":10477.13,"end":10479.13,"text":"王委員"},{"start":10479.13,"end":10481.13,"text":"還有在座各位韓市長"},{"start":10481.13,"end":10483.13,"text":"第二次發言"},{"start":10483.13,"end":10485.13,"text":"我主要針對剛才還沒有"},{"start":10485.13,"end":10487.13,"text":"我還沒有談到的問題"},{"start":10487.13,"end":10489.13,"text":"就是這個關於島葛的問題"},{"start":10489.13,"end":10491.13,"text":"因為這個是台北市長蔣萬安市長"},{"start":10491.13,"end":10493.13,"text":"最近提出來的議題"},{"start":10493.53,"end":10495.53,"text":"那"},{"start":10495.53,"end":10497.53,"text":"在我們的現任制度當中"},{"start":10497.53,"end":10499.53,"text":"島葛的這個"},{"start":10499.53,"end":10501.53,"text":"這個"},{"start":10501.53,"end":10503.53,"text":"聲音始終不斷"},{"start":10503.53,"end":10505.53,"text":"從我們這一屆"},{"start":10505.53,"end":10507.53,"text":"政府跟立法院成立以來"},{"start":10507.53,"end":10509.53,"text":"這個不斷"},{"start":10509.53,"end":10511.53,"text":"但是現在竟然是這個"},{"start":10511.53,"end":10513.53,"text":"國會的最大黨國民黨提出來"},{"start":10513.53,"end":10515.53,"text":"那其實我覺得這個問題"},{"start":10515.53,"end":10517.53,"text":"其實是值得"},{"start":10517.53,"end":10519.53,"text":"認真思考"},{"start":10519.53,"end":10521.53,"text":"那個"},{"start":10521.53,"end":10523.53,"text":"如果說我們"},{"start":10523.53,"end":10525.53,"text":"民進黨政府"},{"start":10525.53,"end":10527.53,"text":"或者民進黨覺得"},{"start":10527.53,"end":10529.53,"text":"今天這個因為在"},{"start":10529.53,"end":10531.53,"text":"潮小野大的情況之下"},{"start":10531.53,"end":10533.53,"text":"他很多的施政"},{"start":10533.53,"end":10535.53,"text":"他施展不開"},{"start":10535.53,"end":10537.53,"text":"那特別是"},{"start":10537.53,"end":10539.53,"text":"像國家總運算"},{"start":10539.53,"end":10541.53,"text":"我們已經兩年了"},{"start":10541.53,"end":10543.53,"text":"現在還在審"},{"start":10543.53,"end":10545.53,"text":"使得很多的新興的這個國家"},{"start":10545.53,"end":10547.53,"text":"的一些施政計畫無法施展"},{"start":10547.53,"end":10549.53,"text":"如果我們的確碰到"},{"start":10549.53,"end":10551.53,"text":"我覺得他現在碰到這樣問題的時候"},{"start":10551.53,"end":10553.53,"text":"那現在國會的最大黨"},{"start":10553.53,"end":10555.53,"text":"的重要的政治領袖"},{"start":10555.53,"end":10557.53,"text":"提出來這個島葛的議題"},{"start":10557.53,"end":10559.53,"text":"那麼我覺得民調"},{"start":10559.53,"end":10561.53,"text":"政府應該認真思考這個問題"},{"start":10561.53,"end":10563.53,"text":"但我不知道這個是蔣萬安"},{"start":10563.53,"end":10565.53,"text":"市長個人意見還是代表國民黨"},{"start":10565.53,"end":10567.53,"text":"當中的"},{"start":10567.53,"end":10569.53,"text":"某種政治力量的意見"},{"start":10569.53,"end":10571.53,"text":"但是我覺得這是一個嚴肅的政治議題"},{"start":10571.53,"end":10573.53,"text":"那麼島葛現在提出來呢"},{"start":10573.53,"end":10575.53,"text":"其實"},{"start":10575.53,"end":10577.53,"text":"我覺得也是一個"},{"start":10577.53,"end":10579.53,"text":"能夠付出實踐呢"},{"start":10579.53,"end":10581.53,"text":"其實我也未嘗不好"},{"start":10581.53,"end":10583.53,"text":"為什麼呢"},{"start":10583.53,"end":10585.53,"text":"我們可以和年底的這個地方選舉"},{"start":10585.53,"end":10587.53,"text":"和平辦理"},{"start":10587.53,"end":10589.53,"text":"這個在選務的這個"},{"start":10589.53,"end":10591.53,"text":"行政負擔上不會太重"},{"start":10591.53,"end":10593.53,"text":"再來呢他可以打破什麼"},{"start":10593.53,"end":10595.53,"text":"這個總統啊跟"},{"start":10595.86,"end":10597.86,"text":"總統跟行政院長"},{"start":10597.86,"end":10599.86,"text":"因為他們選舉的時間"},{"start":10599.86,"end":10601.86,"text":"就跟國會選舉的時間很相近"},{"start":10601.86,"end":10603.86,"text":"所以使得這個"},{"start":10603.86,"end":10605.86,"text":"我們"},{"start":10605.86,"end":10607.86,"text":"憲法當中啊"},{"start":10607.86,"end":10609.86,"text":"那種辦總統制的精神"},{"start":10609.86,"end":10611.86,"text":"比較難去凸顯"},{"start":10611.86,"end":10613.86,"text":"但如果說讓國會的選舉呢"},{"start":10613.86,"end":10615.86,"text":"跟總統選舉時程拉開"},{"start":10615.86,"end":10617.86,"text":"那麼"},{"start":10617.86,"end":10619.86,"text":"我想我們今天討論很多的問題"},{"start":10619.86,"end":10621.86,"text":"或者對憲政的思考"},{"start":10621.86,"end":10623.86,"text":"的一種可能性呢"},{"start":10623.86,"end":10625.86,"text":"他會出現"},{"start":10625.86,"end":10627.86,"text":"所以我想這個問題呢"},{"start":10627.86,"end":10629.86,"text":"但我現在在座立法委員"},{"start":10629.86,"end":10631.86,"text":"只有一位"},{"start":10631.86,"end":10633.86,"text":"可能立法委員"},{"start":10633.86,"end":10635.86,"text":"就這個問題可以好好的思考"},{"start":10635.86,"end":10637.86,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10638.13,"end":10640.13,"text":"好謝謝曾俊源副教授的發言"},{"start":10640.13,"end":10642.13,"text":"剛剛好像楊佩順老師"},{"start":10642.13,"end":10644.13,"text":"楊佩順教授"},{"start":10644.38,"end":10646.38,"text":"有請"},{"start":10652.88,"end":10654.88,"text":"抱歉啊"},{"start":10654.88,"end":10656.88,"text":"剛剛第一輪發言的時候時間控制不好"},{"start":10656.88,"end":10658.88,"text":"所以有些這個概念"},{"start":10658.88,"end":10660.88,"text":"沒有講得很清楚"},{"start":10660.88,"end":10662.88,"text":"不過我剛剛我先"},{"start":10662.88,"end":10664.88,"text":"延續剛剛這個先進"},{"start":10664.88,"end":10666.88,"text":"所提到的這個倒格的這個問題"},{"start":10666.88,"end":10668.88,"text":"那麼過去立法院"},{"start":10668.88,"end":10670.88,"text":"也有不少人提出要"},{"start":10670.88,"end":10672.88,"text":"要倒格可是"},{"start":10672.88,"end":10674.88,"text":"一直都沒有付諸實現"},{"start":10674.88,"end":10676.88,"text":"為什麼沒有付諸實現"},{"start":10676.88,"end":10678.88,"text":"其實一個很關鍵的因素"},{"start":10678.88,"end":10680.88,"text":"就是台灣在選立法委員的"},{"start":10680.88,"end":10682.88,"text":"因為這個問題太高了"},{"start":10682.88,"end":10684.88,"text":"那因為你如果提出倒格的話"},{"start":10684.88,"end":10686.88,"text":"那行政院就可以解散"},{"start":10686.88,"end":10688.88,"text":"就可以陳情總統來解散立法院"},{"start":10688.88,"end":10690.88,"text":"那這個是對立法委員"},{"start":10690.88,"end":10692.88,"text":"來講是一個很大的這個"},{"start":10692.88,"end":10694.88,"text":"壓力"},{"start":10694.88,"end":10696.88,"text":"所以大家也就是口頭上講講而已"},{"start":10696.88,"end":10698.88,"text":"那"},{"start":10698.88,"end":10700.88,"text":"所以我覺得台灣的這個民主改革"},{"start":10700.88,"end":10702.88,"text":"我們今天講了這麼多啊"},{"start":10702.88,"end":10704.88,"text":"有關修憲的問題啊"},{"start":10704.88,"end":10706.88,"text":"我覺得正本清源啊"},{"start":10706.88,"end":10708.88,"text":"我們應該把這個選舉的這個成本"},{"start":10708.88,"end":10710.88,"text":"管控好"},{"start":10710.88,"end":10712.88,"text":"就我所知比如像英國"},{"start":10712.88,"end":10714.88,"text":"英國他為什麼沒事可以解散國會呢"},{"start":10714.88,"end":10716.88,"text":"因為英國一個"},{"start":10716.88,"end":10718.88,"text":"國會議員的選舉他的"},{"start":10718.88,"end":10720.88,"text":"法規規定他的選舉經費的上限"},{"start":10720.88,"end":10722.88,"text":"是台幣差不多"},{"start":10722.88,"end":10724.88,"text":"60萬左右而已"},{"start":10724.94,"end":10726.94,"text":"那如果說今天"},{"start":10726.94,"end":10728.94,"text":"我如果說選舉經費是60萬"},{"start":10728.94,"end":10730.94,"text":"我可以預期的"},{"start":10730.94,"end":10732.94,"text":"那我也很樂意預期倒格"},{"start":10732.94,"end":10734.94,"text":"反正再選一次也沒什麼了不起"},{"start":10736.56,"end":10738.56,"text":"所以我覺得這是值得我們去探討"},{"start":10738.56,"end":10740.56,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":10740.56,"end":10742.56,"text":"我們大院是不是能夠就這個"},{"start":10742.56,"end":10744.56,"text":"選舉經費的"},{"start":10744.56,"end":10746.56,"text":"管控的執行上面"},{"start":10746.56,"end":10748.56,"text":"是不是能夠多來"},{"start":10748.56,"end":10750.56,"text":"修法或者是來要求"},{"start":10750.56,"end":10752.56,"text":"行政機構能夠更"},{"start":10752.56,"end":10754.56,"text":"徹底的來執行"},{"start":10754.56,"end":10756.56,"text":"那回到剛剛大家講到的這個"},{"start":10756.56,"end":10758.56,"text":"監察院廢除以後"},{"start":10758.56,"end":10760.56,"text":"那麼有些這個權力"},{"start":10760.56,"end":10762.56,"text":"怎麼樣何去何從"},{"start":10762.56,"end":10764.56,"text":"那我所要提出的概念"},{"start":10764.56,"end":10766.56,"text":"像大家比較擔心"},{"start":10766.56,"end":10768.56,"text":"監察院有調查權"},{"start":10768.56,"end":10770.56,"text":"那將來立法"},{"start":10770.56,"end":10772.56,"text":"給立法院"},{"start":10772.56,"end":10774.56,"text":"在立法院運作上是不是會有所"},{"start":10774.56,"end":10776.56,"text":"憨格"},{"start":10776.56,"end":10778.56,"text":"那我必須要講"},{"start":10778.56,"end":10780.56,"text":"美國憲法並沒有規定美國國會有調查權"},{"start":10780.56,"end":10782.56,"text":"可是美國國會的"},{"start":10782.56,"end":10784.56,"text":"調查權的強"},{"start":10784.56,"end":10786.56,"text":"那個調查權之強"},{"start":10786.56,"end":10788.56,"text":"是全世界第一的"},{"start":10788.56,"end":10790.56,"text":"這是學界沒有人可以否認的"},{"start":10790.85,"end":10792.85,"text":"那為什麼美國國會調查權"},{"start":10792.85,"end":10794.85,"text":"憲法沒有規定他可以有這麼強的"},{"start":10794.85,"end":10796.85,"text":"調查權"},{"start":10796.85,"end":10798.85,"text":"因為美國國會有懲處"},{"start":10798.85,"end":10800.85,"text":"這個蔑視國會的行為"},{"start":10801.87,"end":10803.87,"text":"那麼美國國會也在歷史上"},{"start":10803.87,"end":10805.87,"text":"也動員過好幾次"},{"start":10805.87,"end":10807.87,"text":"甚至有這個內閣部長"},{"start":10807.87,"end":10809.87,"text":"都差一點被關到監獄裡面去"},{"start":10809.87,"end":10811.87,"text":"所以我覺得這個以前"},{"start":10811.87,"end":10813.87,"text":"國會也通過蔑視國會的"},{"start":10813.87,"end":10815.87,"text":"這些法條可是"},{"start":10816.74,"end":10818.74,"text":"我覺得你看現在的這個立法院"},{"start":10818.74,"end":10820.74,"text":"跟官員之間的詢答"},{"start":10820.74,"end":10822.74,"text":"好像這個"},{"start":10822.74,"end":10824.74,"text":"這個官員也不太這個"},{"start":10824.74,"end":10826.74,"text":"尊重這個立法院的這個"},{"start":10826.74,"end":10828.74,"text":"這個質詢權"},{"start":10828.74,"end":10830.74,"text":"這個方面是不是可以"},{"start":10830.74,"end":10832.74,"text":"來思考怎麼樣改善"},{"start":10832.74,"end":10834.74,"text":"那另外一個就是"},{"start":10834.74,"end":10836.74,"text":"有關這個監察院的一些"},{"start":10836.74,"end":10838.74,"text":"我對不起我再幾句話"},{"start":10838.74,"end":10840.74,"text":"一些公文何去何從"},{"start":10840.74,"end":10842.74,"text":"我剛剛有提到"},{"start":10842.74,"end":10844.74,"text":"就是效法美國的GAO"},{"start":10844.74,"end":10846.74,"text":"就是美國"},{"start":10846.74,"end":10848.74,"text":"政府客責處"},{"start":10848.74,"end":10850.74,"text":"那這個政府客責處"},{"start":10850.74,"end":10852.74,"text":"以前是叫做"},{"start":10852.74,"end":10854.74,"text":"就是美國的這個審計部"},{"start":10854.74,"end":10856.74,"text":"General Accounting Office"},{"start":10856.74,"end":10858.74,"text":"他是負責財政結算"},{"start":10858.74,"end":10860.74,"text":"方面的這個工作"},{"start":10860.74,"end":10862.74,"text":"那麼到2004年的時候"},{"start":10862.74,"end":10864.74,"text":"美國國會就認為說"},{"start":10864.74,"end":10866.74,"text":"他除了在看這個"},{"start":10866.74,"end":10868.74,"text":"政府的預算政府的結算"},{"start":10868.74,"end":10870.74,"text":"這個功能之外"},{"start":10870.74,"end":10872.74,"text":"那麼衍生出來對"},{"start":10872.74,"end":10874.74,"text":"這個官員責任的一些"},{"start":10874.74,"end":10876.74,"text":"比如說你提出了這個"},{"start":10876.74,"end":10878.74,"text":"預算你執行不力"},{"start":10878.74,"end":10880.74,"text":"那這個就官員就要負這個責任"},{"start":10880.74,"end":10882.74,"text":"所以就發現說這個機構"},{"start":10882.74,"end":10884.74,"text":"其實可以對一些採購"},{"start":10884.74,"end":10886.74,"text":"一些政府的這個財政的"},{"start":10886.74,"end":10888.74,"text":"紀律上面"},{"start":10888.74,"end":10890.74,"text":"他是具有相當大的一個"},{"start":10890.74,"end":10892.74,"text":"矯正的一個機制在那裡"},{"start":10892.74,"end":10894.74,"text":"所以在2004年就把它叫做"},{"start":10894.74,"end":10896.74,"text":"改名叫做"},{"start":10896.74,"end":10898.74,"text":"政府執行"},{"start":10898.74,"end":10900.74,"text":"政府客責處"},{"start":10900.74,"end":10902.74,"text":"Government 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Office"},{"start":10902.74,"end":10904.74,"text":"那這個"},{"start":10904.74,"end":10906.74,"text":"就值得我們將來監察院"},{"start":10906.74,"end":10908.74,"text":"現在美國這個GAU"},{"start":10908.74,"end":10910.74,"text":"編制上人員有差不多"},{"start":10910.74,"end":10912.74,"text":"將近五千個人"},{"start":10912.74,"end":10914.74,"text":"那監察院如果將來"},{"start":10914.74,"end":10916.74,"text":"廢掉的話我相信"},{"start":10916.74,"end":10918.74,"text":"這個應該不到一千個人吧"},{"start":10918.74,"end":10920.74,"text":"全部進入這個部門"},{"start":10920.74,"end":10922.74,"text":"來協助立法院"},{"start":10922.74,"end":10924.74,"text":"來做對政府的這個"},{"start":10924.74,"end":10926.74,"text":"會計審查預算的制定"},{"start":10926.74,"end":10928.74,"text":"上面應該會"},{"start":10928.74,"end":10930.74,"text":"我們政府的這個效率會更好"},{"start":10930.74,"end":10932.74,"text":"那麼以上抱歉謝謝"},{"start":10933.21,"end":10935.21,"text":"好謝謝楊在順"},{"start":10935.21,"end":10937.21,"text":"特別講教授的發言"},{"start":10937.21,"end":10939.21,"text":"接下來是謝哲瑜教授"},{"start":10939.21,"end":10941.21,"text":"有請"},{"start":10947.59,"end":10949.59,"text":"八分鐘要針對九個提案"},{"start":10949.59,"end":10951.59,"text":"不太容易"},{"start":10951.59,"end":10953.59,"text":"另外有一個"},{"start":10953.59,"end":10955.59,"text":"有提到平埔族的"},{"start":10955.59,"end":10957.59,"text":"立委的名額的問題"},{"start":10957.59,"end":10959.59,"text":"我個人的看法是認為現在"},{"start":10959.59,"end":10961.59,"text":"所謂的原住民"},{"start":10961.59,"end":10963.59,"text":"的部分已經有六席了"},{"start":10963.59,"end":10965.59,"text":"原住民人口只有六十二萬"},{"start":10965.59,"end":10967.59,"text":"雲林縣人口六十七萬"},{"start":10967.59,"end":10969.59,"text":"屏東的"},{"start":10969.59,"end":10971.59,"text":"七萬"},{"start":10971.59,"end":10973.59,"text":"同樣都只有兩席"},{"start":10973.59,"end":10975.59,"text":"雲林"},{"start":10976.12,"end":10978.12,"text":"再要求說"},{"start":10978.12,"end":10980.12,"text":"當然平埔族是台灣最"},{"start":10980.12,"end":10982.12,"text":"原始的一個"},{"start":10982.12,"end":10984.12,"text":"一個民族"},{"start":10984.12,"end":10986.12,"text":"怎麼樣合理的讓"},{"start":10986.12,"end":10988.12,"text":"每個選區票票等值"},{"start":10988.12,"end":10990.12,"text":"這是立法院要考量的"},{"start":10990.12,"end":10992.12,"text":"另外就是"},{"start":10992.12,"end":10994.12,"text":"我們剛剛提到很多的"},{"start":10994.12,"end":10996.12,"text":"這些議案"},{"start":10996.12,"end":10998.12,"text":"1997年我剛好拿了美國獎"},{"start":10998.12,"end":11000.12,"text":"協定在美國做訪問學者"},{"start":11000.12,"end":11002.12,"text":"那一年克林頓"},{"start":11002.12,"end":11004.12,"text":"被彈劾"},{"start":11004.22,"end":11006.22,"text":"克林頓任內的時候提名了四個大法官"},{"start":11008.61,"end":11010.61,"text":"要不要被彈劾"},{"start":11010.61,"end":11012.61,"text":"大法官先解釋他到底符不符合"},{"start":11013.7,"end":11015.7,"text":"結果"},{"start":11015.24,"end":11017.24,"text":"一般在我們這裡的民情"},{"start":11017.24,"end":11019.24,"text":"可能是五比四或炒翻天"},{"start":11019.24,"end":11021.24,"text":"那一年的狀況九比零"},{"start":11021.24,"end":11023.24,"text":"不能避免"},{"start":11023.49,"end":11025.49,"text":"這個就是民情"},{"start":11025.33,"end":11027.33,"text":"我們的民情"},{"start":11027.33,"end":11029.33,"text":"現在這麼多朝野政黨"},{"start":11029.33,"end":11031.33,"text":"然後民意認為"},{"start":11031.33,"end":11033.33,"text":"把監察跟考試"},{"start":11033.33,"end":11035.33,"text":"踐踏到這種程度"},{"start":11035.33,"end":11037.33,"text":"他本來的功能沒有發揮"},{"start":11037.33,"end":11039.33,"text":"誰讓他沒有發揮"},{"start":11039.33,"end":11041.33,"text":"不是這個制度不好"},{"start":11041.33,"end":11043.33,"text":"我剛剛提到如果監察權"},{"start":11043.33,"end":11045.33,"text":"的所有這些權利"},{"start":11045.33,"end":11047.33,"text":"放到立法院去的話"},{"start":11047.33,"end":11049.33,"text":"立法委員能夠"},{"start":11049.33,"end":11051.33,"text":"有比較冷靜的"},{"start":11051.33,"end":11053.33,"text":"平常立委行政立法"},{"start":11053.33,"end":11055.33,"text":"把附動那麼多"},{"start":11055.33,"end":11057.33,"text":"會不會有富行"},{"start":11057.46,"end":11059.46,"text":"多一個權力機關"},{"start":11059.46,"end":11061.46,"text":"外部的東西來監察"},{"start":11062.3,"end":11064.3,"text":"這在整個中國"},{"start":11064.3,"end":11066.3,"text":"文明的歷史裡面"},{"start":11066.3,"end":11068.3,"text":"已經一兩千"},{"start":11068.3,"end":11070.3,"text":"一千多年了"},{"start":11070.17,"end":11072.17,"text":"這樣的一個東西"},{"start":11072.17,"end":11074.17,"text":"是因為不尊重立委"},{"start":11074.17,"end":11076.17,"text":"不尊重所謂的監委"},{"start":11076.17,"end":11078.17,"text":"他的人格"},{"start":11078.17,"end":11080.17,"text":"他的風範"},{"start":11080.17,"end":11082.17,"text":"然後提名的人選出問題"},{"start":11084.29,"end":11086.29,"text":"所以另外當然又提到說"},{"start":11086.29,"end":11090.29,"text":"我們朝的什麼制度走會比較好"},{"start":11090.29,"end":11093.29,"text":"我們已經走到總統民選了"},{"start":11093.29,"end":11095.29,"text":"你要把這個權力"},{"start":11095.29,"end":11097.29,"text":"拿回到內閣裡面來"},{"start":11097.81,"end":11099.81,"text":"的確是有困難"},{"start":11099.81,"end":11101.81,"text":"而且當時候很多的評論"},{"start":11101.81,"end":11103.81,"text":"認為總統民選之後"},{"start":11103.81,"end":11105.81,"text":"兩岸之間"},{"start":11105.81,"end":11107.81,"text":"才能夠比較正視到"},{"start":11107.81,"end":11109.81,"text":"台灣的民意的部分"},{"start":11109.81,"end":11111.81,"text":"因為他有個總體的民意"},{"start":11111.81,"end":11113.81,"text":"這些都是慢慢"},{"start":11113.81,"en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策做辯論或者是法案"},{"start":11350.82,"end":11353.82,"text":"做一些他的反制的動作"},{"start":11353.82,"end":11357.82,"text":"那總統他也必須對選出他的民意來負責"},{"start":11357.82,"end":11359.82,"text":"所以我想釐清說這個是我國"},{"start":11359.82,"end":11361.82,"text":"跟法國制度不太一樣的地方"},{"start":11361.82,"end":11364.82,"text":"我們在談這一些左右共治的行程"},{"start":11364.82,"end":11367.82,"text":"我們可以要再去做一些釐清"},{"start":11367.82,"end":11368.82,"text":"那我們未來要怎麼走"},{"start":11368.82,"end":11370.82,"text":"這當然可以檢討"},{"start":11370.82,"end":11372.82,"text":"就是這當然可以去做選擇"},{"start":11372.82,"end":11374.82,"text":"但是我會認為說"},{"start":11374.82,"end":11377.82,"text":"我們把我們想要的部分想清楚"},{"start":11377.82,"end":11379.82,"text":"然後再來做憲法的修正"},{"start":11379.82,"end":11384.82,"text":"然後做一個更有效能符合民意政治與責任政治的選擇"},{"start":11384.82,"end":11385.82,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11388.26,"end":11391.26,"text":"好 謝謝蔡宜仲主理教授的發言"},{"start":11391.26,"end":11395.26,"text":"不曉得還有沒有學者專家願意提供保衛意見"},{"start":11398.25,"end":11401.25,"text":"好 那今天公聽會就到此結束"},{"start":11401.25,"end":11404.25,"text":"非常感謝各位學者專家及委員發表高見"},{"start":11404.25,"end":11408.25,"text":"本次會議學者專家們補充的口頭及書面資料"},{"start":11408.25,"end":11410.25,"text":"我們都會列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":11410.25,"end":11413.25,"text":"各位所發表的精闢鑑簡"},{"start":11413.25,"end":11416.25,"text":"對於本院接下來的審查修憲提案有很大的注意"},{"start":11416.25,"end":11418.25,"text":"本次會議的發言紀錄"},{"start":11418.25,"end":11423.25,"text":"我們會依相關規定分送本院全體委員及各位做參考"},{"start":11423.25,"end":11425.25,"text":"並列入本院公報紀錄"},{"start":11425.25,"end":11427.25,"text":"成為國會的真實紀錄"},{"start":11427.25,"end":11429.25,"text":"再次謝謝大家出席今天的公聽會"},{"start":11429.25,"end":11430.25,"text":"現在散會"},{"start":11453.52,"end":11455.52,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}