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劉玉菁副市長"},{"start":1732.33,"end":1734.3899999999999,"text":"心理健康師"},{"start":1734.46,"end":1736.52,"text":"洪嘉基專務委員"},{"start":1737.8,"end":1739.86,"text":"社會及家庭署張美美副署長"},{"start":1741.51,"end":1745.57,"text":"食品藥物管理署慈蘭惠副署長"},{"start":1747.91,"end":1749.97,"text":"行政院人權及轉型正義處"},{"start":1750.96,"end":1755.02,"text":"張元瑞好參議"},{"start":1756.99,"end":1759.05,"text":"法務部翁仁君參事"},{"start":1761.16,"end":1763.22,"text":"李宗翰主任檢察官"},{"start":1765.17,"end":1769.23,"text":"教育部國民級學情教育署 彭副委員署長"},{"start":1772.73,"end":1776.79,"text":"現在請提案委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":1777.31,"end":1779.37,"text":"每位委員兩分鐘"},{"start":1779.84,"end":1783.8999999999999,"text":"首先請邱慧璐委員代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明"},{"start":1792.35,"end":1796.35,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有政府部門的官員大家好"},{"start":1796.35,"end":1798.35,"text":"我想呢"},{"start":1798.35,"end":1800.35,"text":"醫學倫理有四個原則"},{"start":1800.35,"end":1802.35,"text":"第一個原則就是自主原則"},{"start":1802.35,"end":1804.35,"text":"第二個原則就是行善原則"},{"start":1804.35,"end":1806.35,"text":"第三個原則就是不傷害原則"},{"start":1806.35,"end":1810.35,"text":"第四個原則就是公平正義原則"},{"start":1810.35,"end":1812.35,"text":"而其中四個原則當中"},{"start":1812.35,"end":1818.35,"text":"又以病人的自主權這個原則被廣為廣泛的討論"},{"start":1818.4099999999999,"end":1822.4099999999999,"text":"這認為是倫理原則最核心的概念"},{"start":1822.4099999999999,"end":1826.4099999999999,"text":"那當然我們台灣民眾黨提出了尊嚴善終法"},{"start":1826.4099999999999,"end":1830.4099999999999,"text":"尊嚴善終法提出的利益不外乎就是"},{"start":1830.4099999999999,"end":1834.4099999999999,"text":"要讓病人落實生命自主的原則"},{"start":1834.4099999999999,"end":1836.4099999999999,"text":"那當然現行的法規"},{"start":1836.4099999999999,"end":1838.4099999999999,"text":"有安民法和醫療條例"},{"start":1838.4099999999999,"end":1840.4099999999999,"text":"有病人自主權利法"},{"start":1840.4099999999999,"end":1842.4099999999999,"text":"但是安民法和醫療條例"},{"start":1842.4099999999999,"end":1845.4099999999999,"text":"它適用的對象是默契病人"},{"start":1845.4099999999999,"end":1847.4099999999999,"text":"而病人自主權利法"},{"start":1847.47,"end":1849.47,"text":"適用的對象有五類的病人"},{"start":1849.47,"end":1851.47,"text":"第一類的病人就是也是默契病人"},{"start":1851.47,"end":1857.47,"text":"第二類的病人則是永久植物人狀態的病人"},{"start":1857.47,"end":1859.47,"text":"第三類的病人就是不可逆的昏迷"},{"start":1859.47,"end":1861.47,"text":"第四類的病人就是重度的失智"},{"start":1861.47,"end":1864.47,"text":"第五類的病人就是概括條款"},{"start":1864.47,"end":1868.47,"text":"那總共衛福部公告了11種罕病"},{"start":1868.47,"end":1872.47,"text":"所以換言之如果你不是這種條件的人"},{"start":1872.47,"end":1874.47,"text":"你根本走入不了"},{"start":1874.53,"end":1876.53,"text":"安民法和醫療條例"},{"start":1876.53,"end":1878.53,"text":"跟病人自主權利法的世界"},{"start":1878.53,"end":1880.53,"text":"以至於當你生命出現了"},{"start":1880.53,"end":1882.53,"text":"無法治癒的疾病"},{"start":1882.53,"end":1884.53,"text":"承受痛苦難以忍受"},{"start":1884.53,"end":1886.53,"text":"你沒有方式可以尊嚴善終"},{"start":1886.53,"end":1888.53,"text":"所以我們台灣民眾黨"},{"start":1888.53,"end":1891.53,"text":"在今年提出了尊嚴善終法"},{"start":1891.53,"end":1893.53,"text":"就是想要回應社會的需求"},{"start":1893.53,"end":1897.53,"text":"人民的這個倡議"},{"start":1897.53,"end":1899.53,"text":"那我們的尊嚴善終法有幾個特色"},{"start":1899.53,"end":1901.53,"text":"首先是安樂死"},{"start":1901.53,"end":1903.53,"text":"跟醫師協助死亡的適用條件"},{"start":1903.59,"end":1905.59,"text":"程序監督行政管理"},{"start":1905.59,"end":1907.59,"text":"還有設置專責的服務機構"},{"start":1907.59,"end":1909.59,"text":"專業人員的制度"},{"start":1909.59,"end":1911.59,"text":"預立尊嚴善終的決定"},{"start":1911.59,"end":1913.59,"text":"代理人制度跟相關的法律效果"},{"start":1913.59,"end":1916.59,"text":"我們希望這部法律能夠解決"},{"start":1916.59,"end":1920.59,"text":"病人來自內心最渴望的一個訴求"},{"start":1920.59,"end":1922.59,"text":"落實生命的自主權"},{"start":1922.59,"end":1924.59,"text":"以上說明謝謝"},{"start":1925.06,"end":1927.06,"text":"謝謝邱慧如委員"},{"start":1927.06,"end":1929.06,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員說明"},{"start":1940.6699999999998,"end":1942.6699999999998,"text":"首先非常感謝趙偉"},{"start":1942.6699999999998,"end":1944.6699999999998,"text":"今天特別來去審查"},{"start":1944.6699999999998,"end":1946.6699999999998,"text":"由我本人"},{"start":1946.6699999999998,"end":1948.6699999999998,"text":"以及其他18位"},{"start":1948.6699999999998,"end":1950.6699999999998,"text":"18位民進黨的"},{"start":1950.6699999999998,"end":1952.6699999999998,"text":"立法委員們共同提案的"},{"start":1952.6699999999998,"end":1954.6699999999998,"text":"這個安樂死草案"},{"start":1954.6699999999998,"end":1956.6699999999998,"text":"除此之外"},{"start":1956.6699999999998,"end":1958.6699999999998,"text":"我們很榮幸"},{"start":1958.6699999999998,"end":1960.6699999999998,"text":"這一次是在本屆"},{"start":1960.6699999999998,"end":1962.6699999999998,"text":"第一次能夠來在我們的委員會"},{"start":1962.6699999999998,"end":1964.6699999999998,"text":"正式的討論我們的安樂死法案"},{"start":1964.6699999999998,"end":1966.6699999999998,"text":"那我想這也不是我們第一次"},{"start":1966.6699999999998,"end":1968.6699999999998,"text":"在這個立法院來討論"},{"start":1968.73,"end":1970.73,"text":"那前前後後"},{"start":1970.73,"end":1972.73,"text":"包含這一個各種的座談會"},{"start":1972.73,"end":1974.73,"text":"公聽會"},{"start":1974.73,"end":1976.73,"text":"以及在台灣各地"},{"start":1976.73,"end":1978.73,"text":"辦理的各個會議"},{"start":1978.73,"end":1980.73,"text":"我們針對安樂死的相關的法案"},{"start":1980.73,"end":1982.73,"text":"我們已經討論了"},{"start":1982.73,"end":1984.73,"text":"數十次"},{"start":1984.73,"end":1986.73,"text":"那我還記得第二次"},{"start":1986.73,"end":1988.73,"text":"的座談會的時候"},{"start":1988.73,"end":1990.73,"text":"有來自中國國民黨"},{"start":1990.73,"end":1991.73,"text":"民眾黨"},{"start":1991.73,"end":1993.73,"text":"還有我們執政黨"},{"start":1993.73,"end":1994.73,"text":"民主進入黨"},{"start":1994.73,"end":1996.73,"text":"那共同來去討論這個草案"},{"start":1997.39,"end":1999.45,"text":"首先我必須要感謝"},{"start":1999.47,"end":2001.47,"text":"台灣的這個過去"},{"start":2001.47,"end":2003.47,"text":"在安寧緩和醫療條例"},{"start":2003.47,"end":2005.47,"text":"還有病人的自主權利法"},{"start":2005.47,"end":2007.47,"text":"這些付出努力的這些前人們"},{"start":2007.47,"end":2009.47,"text":"這些制度非常好"},{"start":2009.47,"end":2011.47,"text":"也必須要強化"},{"start":2011.47,"end":2013.47,"text":"但是我們還是要承認"},{"start":2013.47,"end":2015.47,"text":"除了安寧醫療"},{"start":2015.47,"end":2017.47,"text":"它不見得是在每一個"},{"start":2016.54,"end":2018.54,"text":"案例中都能夠消除痛苦"},{"start":2018.54,"end":2020.54,"text":"那有些病人必須"},{"start":2020.54,"end":2022.54,"text":"在接受完整照護之後"},{"start":2022.54,"end":2024.54,"text":"還是要承受"},{"start":2024.54,"end":2025.54,"text":"無法疼痛"},{"start":2025.54,"end":2027.54,"text":"無法緩解的疼痛"},{"start":2027.54,"end":2029.54,"text":"那這些嚴重的"},{"start":2029.54,"end":2031.54,"text":"這些狀況不可逆的這些疾病"},{"start":2031.54,"end":2033.54,"text":"那未必符合傳統默契"},{"start":2033.54,"end":2035.54,"text":"病人的定義"},{"start":2035.54,"end":2037.54,"text":"他可能要在清醒中"},{"start":2037.54,"end":2039.54,"text":"他可能要在各個狀況下"},{"start":2039.54,"end":2041.54,"text":"承受數年數十年的折磨"},{"start":2041.54,"end":2043.54,"text":"那過去安樂死的議題被討論過"},{"start":2043.54,"end":2045.54,"text":"那很少有足條"},{"start":2045.6,"end":2047.6,"text":"來具體跨黨化的討論"},{"start":2047.6,"end":2049.6,"text":"那這一次我認為就是一個"},{"start":2049.6,"end":2051.6,"text":"非常重要的一步"},{"start":2051.6,"end":2052.6,"text":"對我們來說"},{"start":2052.6,"end":2054.6,"text":"我們沒有辦法替別人"},{"start":2054.6,"end":2056.6,"text":"決定他們怎麼樣"},{"start":2056.6,"end":2058.6,"text":"去尊嚴的走完他們最後一程"},{"start":2058.6,"end":2060.6,"text":"這是他們每一位當事者"},{"start":2060.6,"end":2062.6,"text":"必須自主來去做決定的"},{"start":2062.6,"end":2064.6,"text":"他們需要知道的是"},{"start":2064.6,"end":2066.6,"text":"好那如何"},{"start":2066.6,"end":2068.6,"text":"來去尊嚴的離開"},{"start":2068.6,"end":2070.6,"text":"所以這一次我們的修正的重點"},{"start":2070.6,"end":2072.6,"text":"首先我們是重新定位"},{"start":2072.6,"end":2074.6,"text":"醫助死亡跟主動安樂死的關係"},{"start":2074.66,"end":2076.66,"text":"我們的版本上"},{"start":2076.66,"end":2078.66,"text":"原則上是採取醫助死亡"},{"start":2078.66,"end":2080.66,"text":"再來是我們建立的"},{"start":2080.66,"end":2082.66,"text":"是雙醫師的獨立評估機制"},{"start":2082.66,"end":2084.66,"text":"至少有一位主治而醫師"},{"start":2084.66,"end":2086.66,"text":"跟一位獨立的諮詢醫師"},{"start":2086.66,"end":2088.66,"text":"再來就是我們把默契病人"},{"start":2088.66,"end":2090.66,"text":"直接定義改為"},{"start":2090.66,"end":2092.66,"text":"直接援引安寧緩和和醫療條例"},{"start":2092.66,"end":2094.66,"text":"第三條第二款定義"},{"start":2094.66,"end":2096.66,"text":"跟台灣既有的安寧緩和醫療"},{"start":2096.66,"end":2098.66,"text":"判定實質接軌"},{"start":2098.66,"end":2100.66,"text":"再來就是我們多"},{"start":2100.66,"end":2102.66,"text":"新增多項的關鍵條款"},{"start":2102.72,"end":2104.72,"text":"這個契約的收費上限"},{"start":2104.72,"end":2106.72,"text":"以及保險"},{"start":2106.72,"end":2108.72,"text":"我們視為自然死亡"},{"start":2108.72,"end":2110.72,"text":"紀錄保存還有審議期限等等"},{"start":2110.72,"end":2112.72,"text":"那我們的保險的條款"},{"start":2112.72,"end":2114.72,"text":"還是原理"},{"start":2114.72,"end":2116.72,"text":"比利時的做法"},{"start":2116.72,"end":2118.72,"text":"將一把執行的安樂死"},{"start":2118.72,"end":2120.72,"text":"在人手保險區域上視為自然死亡"},{"start":2120.72,"end":2122.72,"text":"再來我們是把所有的"},{"start":2122.72,"end":2124.72,"text":"現行的法規"},{"start":2124.72,"end":2126.72,"text":"我們把它接軌"},{"start":2126.72,"end":2128.72,"text":"我們把患者統一改為"},{"start":2128.72,"end":2130.72,"text":"病人成立人改為"},{"start":2130.7799999999997,"end":2132.7799999999997,"text":"完全行為能力之人"},{"start":2132.7799999999997,"end":2134.7799999999997,"text":"醫療醫院認證改為"},{"start":2134.7799999999997,"end":2136.7799999999997,"text":"醫院評鑑等"},{"start":2136.7799999999997,"end":2138.7799999999997,"text":"我們讓病人自主權利法"},{"start":2138.7799999999997,"end":2140.7799999999997,"text":"安寧緩和醫療條例"},{"start":2140.7799999999997,"end":2142.7799999999997,"text":"跟醫療的法的體力"},{"start":2142.7799999999997,"end":2144.7799999999997,"text":"我們把它一致化"},{"start":2146.08,"end":2148.08,"text":"我們剛才提到"},{"start":2148.08,"end":2150.08,"text":"我們三組未成年例外條款"},{"start":2150.08,"end":2152.08,"text":"我們基於台灣的"},{"start":2152.08,"end":2154.08,"text":"社會現狀的接受度"},{"start":2154.08,"end":2156.08,"text":"新版本疑慮要求"},{"start":2156.08,"end":2158.08,"text":"具完全行為能力者"},{"start":2158.08,"end":2160.08,"text":"才可以使用"},{"start":2160.08,"end":2162.08,"text":"我們把所有的法規"},{"start":2162.08,"end":2164.08,"text":"我們知道會有支持者"},{"start":2164.08,"end":2166.08,"text":"也會有不同程度的支持者"},{"start":2166.08,"end":2168.08,"text":"可能會有疑慮者"},{"start":2168.08,"end":2170.08,"text":"那我們一一的在過去的"},{"start":2170.08,"end":2172.08,"text":"各種的座談會還有討論會上"},{"start":2172.08,"end":2174.08,"text":"每一次我們的草案"},{"start":2174.14,"end":2176.14,"text":"我們都會有相關的調整"},{"start":2176.14,"end":2178.14,"text":"我們最後送出來的"},{"start":2178.14,"end":2180.14,"text":"這一個由我以及其他"},{"start":2180.14,"end":2182.14,"text":"十幾位委員們的這個草案"},{"start":2182.14,"end":2184.14,"text":"是經過多次修正之後"},{"start":2184.14,"end":2186.14,"text":"來提出來的草案"},{"start":2186.14,"end":2188.14,"text":"但我也知道說"},{"start":2188.14,"end":2190.14,"text":"這是一個非常重要的生命議題"},{"start":2190.14,"end":2192.14,"text":"所以刀喊衛福部"},{"start":2192.14,"end":2194.14,"text":"以及各主管機關"},{"start":2194.14,"end":2196.14,"text":"每一位同仁"},{"start":2196.14,"end":2198.14,"text":"還有我們其他立法委員們同仁"},{"start":2198.14,"end":2200.14,"text":"各位的意見"},{"start":2200.14,"end":2202.14,"text":"都是未來修正草案的"},{"start":2202.2,"end":2204.2,"text":"我還是要強調"},{"start":2204.2,"end":2206.2,"text":"會有不同程度支持"},{"start":2206.2,"end":2208.2,"text":"安樂死草案的人"},{"start":2208.2,"end":2210.2,"text":"那我們只要能夠"},{"start":2210.2,"end":2212.2,"text":"把這一個條例"},{"start":2212.2,"end":2214.2,"text":"作為去政黨化"},{"start":2214.2,"end":2216.2,"text":"跨政黨的條例的話"},{"start":2216.2,"end":2218.2,"text":"那我們就可以往安樂死"},{"start":2218.2,"end":2220.2,"text":"或者是善終"},{"start":2220.2,"end":2222.2,"text":"往向前的一步"},{"start":2222.2,"end":2224.2,"text":"那我還是再次強調"},{"start":2224.2,"end":2226.2,"text":"我會全力來去推動"},{"start":2226.2,"end":2228.2,"text":"我與我們的其他的"},{"start":2228.2,"end":2229.2,"text":"立法委員同仁"},{"start":2229.2,"end":2231.2,"text":"也會全力來去推動"},{"start":2231.2599999999998,"end":2233.2599999999998,"text":"我也希望這一次衛福部"},{"start":2233.2599999999998,"end":2235.2599999999998,"text":"能夠正面的來去"},{"start":2235.2599999999998,"end":2237.2599999999998,"text":"針對逐條"},{"start":2237.2599999999998,"end":2239.2599999999998,"text":"來去跟我們用心討論"},{"start":2239.2599999999998,"end":2241.2599999999998,"text":"讓我們這些"},{"start":2241.2599999999998,"end":2243.2599999999998,"text":"無法承受之痛苦"},{"start":2243.2599999999998,"end":2245.2599999999998,"text":"讓當事人能夠尊嚴的"},{"start":2245.2599999999998,"end":2247.2599999999998,"text":"決定他們人生的最後一步"},{"start":2247.2599999999998,"end":2249.2599999999998,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":2250.36,"end":2252.36,"text":"好,謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":2252.36,"end":2254.36,"text":"的說明"},{"start":2254.36,"end":2256.36,"text":"接下來請衛生福利部"},{"start":2256.36,"end":2258.36,"text":"時部長並按說明時間10分鐘"},{"start":2265.22,"end":2267.22,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":2267.22,"end":2269.22,"text":"今天大院"},{"start":2269.22,"end":2271.22,"text":"就這個審查"},{"start":2271.22,"end":2273.22,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":2273.22,"end":2275.22,"text":"所提出的"},{"start":2275.22,"end":2277.22,"text":"安樂死法草案"},{"start":2277.22,"end":2279.22,"text":"以及台灣民眾黨團"},{"start":2279.22,"end":2281.22,"text":"所擬具的"},{"start":2281.22,"end":2283.22,"text":"尊嚴善終法的草案兩案"},{"start":2283.22,"end":2285.22,"text":"那麼以及提出"},{"start":2285.22,"end":2287.22,"text":"底下會提出這個本部的意見"},{"start":2287.22,"end":2289.22,"text":"那另外就"},{"start":2289.22,"end":2291.22,"text":"近期有而言及這個"},{"start":2291.22,"end":2293.22,"text":"脫鈺而虐的頻傳"},{"start":2293.2799999999997,"end":2295.2799999999997,"text":"那麼有關責任通報"},{"start":2295.2799999999997,"end":2297.2799999999997,"text":"兒少保護及跨部會合作的"},{"start":2297.2799999999997,"end":2299.2799999999997,"text":"這個機制的檢查"},{"start":2299.2799999999997,"end":2301.2799999999997,"text":"那麼也會提出書面的"},{"start":2301.2799999999997,"end":2303.2799999999997,"text":"專案報告"},{"start":2303.2799999999997,"end":2305.2799999999997,"text":"那麼再請各位委員來指教"},{"start":2305.2799999999997,"end":2307.2799999999997,"text":"那麼不論是"},{"start":2307.2799999999997,"end":2309.2799999999997,"text":"這個安樂死或者是"},{"start":2309.2799999999997,"end":2311.2799999999997,"text":"尊嚴善終的法案"},{"start":2311.2799999999997,"end":2313.2799999999997,"text":"那麼都涉及到"},{"start":2313.2799999999997,"end":2315.2799999999997,"text":"生命權"},{"start":2315.2799999999997,"end":2317.2799999999997,"text":"人格自主,醫療倫理"},{"start":2317.2799999999997,"end":2319.2799999999997,"text":"醫師專業責任"},{"start":2319.2799999999997,"end":2321.2799999999997,"text":"刑事法治及社會價值"},{"start":2321.34,"end":2323.34,"text":"多重面向"},{"start":2323.34,"end":2325.34,"text":"那麼過去也有相當的討論"},{"start":2325.34,"end":2327.34,"text":"那麼隨著"},{"start":2327.34,"end":2329.34,"text":"社會的高齡化,醫療科技的進步"},{"start":2329.34,"end":2331.34,"text":"以及病人自主意識的"},{"start":2331.34,"end":2333.34,"text":"提升,那麼如何"},{"start":2333.34,"end":2335.34,"text":"兼顧生命的尊嚴"},{"start":2335.34,"end":2337.34,"text":"病人的自主,還有醫療的"},{"start":2337.34,"end":2339.34,"text":"倫理,以及弱勢的保護"},{"start":2339.34,"end":2341.34,"text":"那麼共同的"},{"start":2341.34,"end":2343.34,"text":"取得一個平衡"},{"start":2343.34,"end":2345.34,"text":"那麼已經成為重要的"},{"start":2345.34,"end":2347.34,"text":"公共政策的議題"},{"start":2347.34,"end":2349.34,"text":"那麼為了讓"},{"start":2349.4,"end":2351.4,"text":"這個生命"},{"start":2351.4,"end":2353.4,"text":"特別是在生命末期的時候"},{"start":2353.4,"end":2355.4,"text":"能夠得到"},{"start":2355.4,"end":2357.4,"text":"良好的照護,那麼我國"},{"start":2357.4,"end":2359.4,"text":"那麼陸陸續續建立了"},{"start":2359.4,"end":2361.4,"text":"相當的照護的制度"},{"start":2361.4,"end":2363.4,"text":"那麼包含在"},{"start":2363.4,"end":2365.4,"text":"2000年所制定"},{"start":2365.4,"end":2367.4,"text":"公布施行的安寧緩和"},{"start":2367.4,"end":2369.4,"text":"醫療條例,讓"},{"start":2369.4,"end":2371.4,"text":"末期病人得以其意願"},{"start":2371.4,"end":2373.4,"text":"來接受安寧緩和"},{"start":2373.4,"end":2375.4,"text":"醫療,來拒絕"},{"start":2375.4,"end":2377.4,"text":"急救,CPR,以及"},{"start":2377.46,"end":2379.46,"text":"維持生命的治療"},{"start":2379.46,"end":2381.46,"text":"那麼迄今已經超過116萬人"},{"start":2381.46,"end":2383.46,"text":"那麼簽署了"},{"start":2383.46,"end":2385.46,"text":"這個安寧緩和的意願"},{"start":2385.46,"end":2387.46,"text":"那麼另外在2019年"},{"start":2387.46,"end":2389.46,"text":"我們實施了"},{"start":2389.46,"end":2391.46,"text":"病人自主權利法"},{"start":2391.46,"end":2393.46,"text":"那麼進一步來保障"},{"start":2393.46,"end":2395.46,"text":"具有完全行為能力者"},{"start":2395.46,"end":2397.46,"text":"也能夠透過"},{"start":2397.46,"end":2399.46,"text":"育力醫療照護諮商"},{"start":2399.46,"end":2401.46,"text":"也就是ACP來做成這個"},{"start":2401.46,"end":2403.46,"text":"AD育力醫療決定"},{"start":2403.46,"end":2405.46,"text":"在符合法定"},{"start":2405.52,"end":2407.52,"text":"確定臨床條件的時候"},{"start":2407.52,"end":2409.52,"text":"能夠依照"},{"start":2409.52,"end":2411.52,"text":"病人的自主意願"},{"start":2411.52,"end":2413.52,"text":"拒絕維持生命治療"},{"start":2413.52,"end":2415.52,"text":"及人工營養"},{"start":2415.52,"end":2417.52,"text":"流體餵養等"},{"start":2417.52,"end":2419.52,"text":"那麼到目前為止"},{"start":2419.52,"end":2421.52,"text":"那麼已經簽署了"},{"start":2421.52,"end":2423.52,"text":"超過15萬5千人"},{"start":2423.52,"end":2425.52,"text":"那麼雖然這兩者"},{"start":2425.52,"end":2427.52,"text":"這個"},{"start":2427.04,"end":2429.04,"text":"這個育力醫療照"},{"start":2429.04,"end":2431.04,"text":"育力醫療決定"},{"start":2431.04,"end":2433.04,"text":"也就是病人自主權利法的"},{"start":2433.04,"end":2434.04,"text":"實行比較慢"},{"start":2434.04,"end":2436.04,"text":"那麼但是經過這幾年的"},{"start":2436.04,"end":2437.04,"text":"推動了"},{"start":2437.04,"end":2439.04,"text":"那麼民眾的自主意願"},{"start":2439.04,"end":2441.04,"text":"也逐漸的提升"},{"start":2441.04,"end":2443.04,"text":"那麼以我們今年的統計"},{"start":2443.04,"end":2445.04,"text":"那麼今年迄今"},{"start":2445.04,"end":2447.04,"text":"那麼新簽署的"},{"start":2447.04,"end":2449.04,"text":"這個安寧緩和意願的人數"},{"start":2449.04,"end":2451.04,"text":"是4萬5千人左右"},{"start":2451.04,"end":2453.04,"text":"那麼簽署AD的"},{"start":2453.04,"end":2455.04,"text":"也就是育力醫療決定的"},{"start":2455.1,"end":2457.1,"text":"也超過2萬6千人"},{"start":2457.1,"end":2459.1,"text":"所以這兩者之間過去的差距"},{"start":2459.1,"end":2461.1,"text":"那麼已經逐漸拉近了"},{"start":2461.1,"end":2463.1,"text":"也代表這個民眾"},{"start":2463.1,"end":2465.1,"text":"對於這個病主法"},{"start":2465.1,"end":2467.1,"text":"的認知跟簽署的意願"},{"start":2467.1,"end":2469.1,"text":"逐步的在提高"},{"start":2469.1,"end":2471.1,"text":"那麼現行的制度"},{"start":2471.1,"end":2473.1,"text":"就是以尊重病人自主"},{"start":2473.1,"end":2475.1,"text":"維護生命尊嚴完善"},{"start":2475.1,"end":2477.1,"text":"善忠的照護為核心"},{"start":2477.1,"end":2479.1,"text":"讓疾病以自然"},{"start":2479.1,"end":2481.1,"text":"病程的發展"},{"start":2481.1,"end":2483.1,"text":"那麼來得到一個"},{"start":2483.16,"end":2485.16,"text":"安寧跟善忠"},{"start":2485.16,"end":2487.16,"text":"而本次審查的兩個草案"},{"start":2487.16,"end":2489.16,"text":"則更進一步的"},{"start":2489.16,"end":2491.16,"text":"建立了這個"},{"start":2491.16,"end":2493.16,"text":"安樂死"},{"start":2493.16,"end":2495.16,"text":"跟醫師協助死亡的制度"},{"start":2495.16,"end":2497.16,"text":"那麼對於"},{"start":2497.16,"end":2501.16,"text":"現行的拒絕醫療的這個"},{"start":2501.16,"end":2503.16,"text":"設計呢"},{"start":2503.16,"end":2505.16,"text":"是屬於重大的一個法制的變革"},{"start":2505.16,"end":2507.16,"text":"那麼我們在書面報告裡面"},{"start":2507.16,"end":2509.16,"text":"也有詳述"},{"start":2509.16,"end":2511.16,"text":"那麼涉及到五項的"},{"start":2511.22,"end":2513.22,"text":"這個重大的改變"},{"start":2513.22,"end":2515.22,"text":"包含第一個制度的設計"},{"start":2516.95,"end":2518.95,"text":"那麼如何兼顧病人的自主"},{"start":2518.95,"end":2520.95,"text":"完全自主意識"},{"start":2520.95,"end":2522.95,"text":"那麼弱勢的保護"},{"start":2522.95,"end":2524.95,"text":"那麼還有醫療的專業"},{"start":2524.95,"end":2526.95,"text":"跟公共的利益之間的一個共識"},{"start":2526.95,"end":2528.95,"text":"那麼第二個呢"},{"start":2528.95,"end":2530.95,"text":"對於在適用對象上"},{"start":2530.95,"end":2532.95,"text":"痛苦的認定"},{"start":2532.95,"end":2534.95,"text":"意識能力自主意願的確認"},{"start":2534.95,"end":2536.95,"text":"那麼都需要一個這個"},{"start":2536.95,"end":2538.95,"text":"周延的保障"},{"start":2538.95,"end":2540.95,"text":"那麼第三個呢"},{"start":2540.95,"end":2542.95,"text":"雙醫師的確認"},{"start":2542.95,"end":2544.95,"text":"精神專業的評估"},{"start":2545.0099999999998,"end":2547.0099999999998,"text":"跟事後的監督機制"},{"start":2547.0099999999998,"end":2549.0099999999998,"text":"都要兼顧這些程序"},{"start":2549.0099999999998,"end":2551.0099999999998,"text":"正義專業能力"},{"start":2551.0099999999998,"end":2553.0099999999998,"text":"跟制度的效率"},{"start":2553.0099999999998,"end":2555.0099999999998,"text":"那麼第四呢"},{"start":2555.0099999999998,"end":2557.0099999999998,"text":"那麼跟安寧緩和醫療"},{"start":2557.0099999999998,"end":2559.0099999999998,"text":"疼痛控制"},{"start":2559.0099999999998,"end":2561.0099999999998,"text":"心理健康跟社會的支持"},{"start":2561.0099999999998,"end":2563.0099999999998,"text":"那麼這些都是需要"},{"start":2563.0099999999998,"end":2565.0099999999998,"text":"相同的這個重要配套"},{"start":2565.0099999999998,"end":2567.0099999999998,"text":"那麼才能夠讓病人"},{"start":2567.0099999999998,"end":2569.0099999999998,"text":"在充分的支持之下來"},{"start":2569.0099999999998,"end":2571.0099999999998,"text":"做成決定"},{"start":2571.0099999999998,"end":2573.0099999999998,"text":"那麼最後呢"},{"start":2573.07,"end":2575.07,"text":"是對於專法跟刑法"},{"start":2575.07,"end":2577.07,"text":"之間的適用關係"},{"start":2577.07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引"},{"start":3296.78,"end":3298.78,"text":"來明確化劃分哪些"},{"start":3298.78,"end":3300.78,"text":"是屬於尊重病人自主"},{"start":3300.78,"end":3302.78,"text":"哪些是可以予約法界"},{"start":3302.78,"end":3304.78,"text":"避免家屬跟醫護人員"},{"start":3304.78,"end":3306.78,"text":"因法律不明而承擔風險"},{"start":3307.84,"end":3309.84,"text":"跟召委報告"},{"start":3309.84,"end":3311.84,"text":"因為這個議題"},{"start":3311.84,"end":3313.84,"text":"真的是牽涉的"},{"start":3315.58,"end":3317.58,"text":"爭議範圍很廣"},{"start":3317.58,"end":3319.58,"text":"也很大也很深"},{"start":3319.58,"end":3321.58,"text":"因為這個涉及到"},{"start":3321.58,"end":3323.58,"text":"生命法議"},{"start":3323.58,"end":3325.58,"text":"還有憲政的價值"},{"start":3325.58,"end":3327.58,"text":"還有醫療的倫理"},{"start":3327.58,"end":3329.58,"text":"所以在這個部分"},{"start":3329.58,"end":3331.58,"text":"目前我們知道有病人"},{"start":3331.58,"end":3333.58,"text":"自主權利法"},{"start":3333.58,"end":3335.58,"text":"那這個是比較"},{"start":3335.58,"end":3337.58,"text":"屬於比較消極的"},{"start":3337.58,"end":3339.58,"text":"然後是醫護人員來配合"},{"start":3339.58,"end":3341.58,"text":"那但是如果是"},{"start":3341.58,"end":3343.58,"text":"安樂死或者是"},{"start":3344.04,"end":3346.04,"text":"尊嚴善忠的話"},{"start":3346.04,"end":3348.04,"text":"那這個可能是有"},{"start":3348.04,"end":3350.04,"text":"比較積極的"},{"start":3350.04,"end":3352.04,"text":"就是主動的安樂死或者是"},{"start":3352.04,"end":3354.04,"text":"依住死亡的這樣的一個情況"},{"start":3354.04,"end":3356.04,"text":"那本部的立場"},{"start":3356.04,"end":3358.04,"text":"我們刑法是我們的主管"},{"start":3358.87,"end":3360.87,"text":"那原則上當然是禁止"},{"start":3360.87,"end":3362.87,"text":"故意剝奪他人的生命"},{"start":3362.87,"end":3364.87,"text":"但所以如果"},{"start":3364.87,"end":3366.87,"text":"像以安樂死來說的話"},{"start":3366.87,"end":3368.87,"text":"如果沒有法律明文規定"},{"start":3369.15,"end":3371.15,"text":"那依法就是會涉及"},{"start":3371.15,"end":3373.15,"text":"刑法殺人罪或者是加工自殺罪的規定"},{"start":3373.15,"end":3375.15,"text":"那當然如果立法政策"},{"start":3375.15,"end":3377.15,"text":"決定另外容許"},{"start":3377.15,"end":3379.15,"text":"規定情形的安樂死"},{"start":3379.15,"end":3381.15,"text":"那我們一定要在構成要件"},{"start":3381.15,"end":3383.15,"text":"還有程序跟監督機制跟免責範圍"},{"start":3383.15,"end":3385.15,"text":"這些"},{"start":3386.1,"end":3388.56,"text":"都要做一個刑法的特別規定"},{"start":3412.85,"end":3414.85,"text":"那部長現行病人自主權利法"},{"start":3414.85,"end":3416.85,"text":"規定病人必須符合"},{"start":3416.85,"end":3418.85,"text":"五種法定情形"},{"start":3418.85,"end":3420.85,"text":"那包括默契病人"},{"start":3420.85,"end":3422.85,"text":"不可逆轉昏迷啊永久"},{"start":3422.85,"end":3424.85,"text":"植物人或是急重度失智"},{"start":3424.85,"end":3426.85,"text":"以及主管機關公告的其他情形"},{"start":3426.85,"end":3428.85,"text":"才能依照"},{"start":3428.85,"end":3430.85,"text":"那個預立醫療決定"},{"start":3430.85,"end":3432.85,"text":"停止維持生命治療"},{"start":3432.85,"end":3434.85,"text":"可是這些條件到底是誰說了算"},{"start":3434.85,"end":3436.85,"text":"是組織醫師一個人決定"},{"start":3436.85,"end":3438.85,"text":"還是要其他專科醫師一起確認"},{"start":3438.85,"end":3440.85,"text":"如果醫療團隊意見不同的話"},{"start":3440.85,"end":3442.85,"text":"最後是由誰拍板決定"},{"start":3444.19,"end":3445.19,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":3445.19,"end":3447.19,"text":"當然在現行的病毒法裡面"},{"start":3447.19,"end":3449.19,"text":"因為我們也在進行修法"},{"start":3449.19,"end":3451.19,"text":"在現行的病毒法裡面"},{"start":3451.19,"end":3453.19,"text":"是要第一個階段"},{"start":3453.19,"end":3455.19,"text":"是要有兩位具相關"},{"start":3455.19,"end":3457.19,"text":"專科資格的醫師去做"},{"start":3457.19,"end":3459.19,"text":"診斷"},{"start":3459.19,"end":3461.19,"text":"看看有沒有符合這些條件"},{"start":3461.19,"end":3463.19,"text":"這是第一步"},{"start":3463.19,"end":3465.19,"text":"那第二步呢他要在"},{"start":3465.19,"end":3467.19,"text":"召會這個安寧的團隊"},{"start":3467.19,"end":3469.19,"text":"而且這個召會至少要有兩次的"},{"start":3469.19,"end":3471.19,"text":"召會去確認"},{"start":3471.19,"end":3473.19,"text":"就啟動後續的這個"},{"start":3473.19,"end":3475.19,"text":"預立醫療決定的這個執行"},{"start":3476.21,"end":3478.21,"text":"程序上是要這樣"},{"start":3478.21,"end":3480.21,"text":"那我覺得什麼時候"},{"start":3480.21,"end":3482.21,"text":"才可以開始預立醫療決定"},{"start":3482.21,"end":3484.21,"text":"而且是只要"},{"start":3484.21,"end":3486.21,"text":"曾經符合條件就可以執行"},{"start":3486.21,"end":3488.21,"text":"還是每一次都要"},{"start":3488.21,"end":3490.21,"text":"必須要重新確認病人目前"},{"start":3490.21,"end":3492.21,"text":"現在是否符合資格"},{"start":3492.21,"end":3494.21,"text":"還有沒有一套全國一致的"},{"start":3494.21,"end":3496.21,"text":"那個判斷的標準"},{"start":3496.21,"end":3498.21,"text":"還有避免不同醫院有不同做法"},{"start":3498.21,"end":3500.21,"text":"影響病人的權益"},{"start":3500.21,"end":3502.21,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":3502.21,"end":3504.21,"text":"就是預立醫療決定就是"},{"start":3504.21,"end":3506.21,"text":"都可以進行的"},{"start":3506.21,"end":3508.21,"text":"只要經過ACP"},{"start":3508.21,"end":3510.21,"text":"預立醫療照護諮商的過程"},{"start":3510.21,"end":3512.21,"text":"就可以去簽署"},{"start":3512.21,"end":3514.21,"text":"只是要啟動的時候就像"},{"start":3514.21,"end":3516.21,"text":"委員提到的因為這個病人的"},{"start":3516.21,"end":3518.21,"text":"病況他是會變化的"},{"start":3518.21,"end":3520.21,"text":"所以等於是每一次要啟動"},{"start":3520.21,"end":3522.21,"text":"按照現在的做法是每一次要"},{"start":3522.21,"end":3524.21,"text":"啟動當然都要經過剛剛的程序"},{"start":3524.21,"end":3526.21,"text":"兩位相關專科醫師"},{"start":3526.21,"end":3528.21,"text":"判斷有沒有符合這一些"},{"start":3528.21,"end":3530.21,"text":"條件"},{"start":3530.21,"end":3532.21,"text":"因為我們現在的條件"},{"start":3532.21,"end":3534.21,"text":"第五款是比較明確"},{"start":3534.21,"end":3536.21,"text":"第五款就是由我們這個"},{"start":3536.21,"end":3538.21,"text":"來公布"},{"start":3538.21,"end":3540.21,"text":"大概都是屬於一些罕見疾病"},{"start":3540.21,"end":3542.21,"text":"所以執行上我們都有"},{"start":3542.21,"end":3544.21,"text":"相關的這個訓練課程"},{"start":3544.21,"end":3546.21,"text":"跟一些指引來讓大家"},{"start":3546.21,"end":3548.21,"text":"知道怎麼執行"},{"start":3548.21,"end":3550.21,"text":"好那部長請回"},{"start":3550.21,"end":3552.21,"text":"接下來請國教署署長"},{"start":3553.67,"end":3555.67,"text":"請國教署署長"},{"start":3557.72,"end":3559.72,"text":"好"},{"start":3559.42,"end":3561.42,"text":"署長好"},{"start":3562.6,"end":3564.6,"text":"一直以來我就非常關心"},{"start":3564.6,"end":3566.6,"text":"而且過去在民間也在處理"},{"start":3566.6,"end":3568.6,"text":"所謂的不當對待"},{"start":3568.6,"end":3570.6,"text":"那台北市呢事實上"},{"start":3570.6,"end":3572.6,"text":"四年就扒起重大的惡孽"},{"start":3572.6,"end":3574.6,"text":"大概超過了"},{"start":3574.6,"end":3576.6,"text":"100位以上大概115位"},{"start":3576.6,"end":3578.6,"text":"的孩子呢受到很大的傷害"},{"start":3578.6,"end":3580.6,"text":"而且這扒起案件"},{"start":3580.6,"end":3582.6,"text":"高達有618次"},{"start":3582.6,"end":3584.6,"text":"的不當管教"},{"start":3584.6,"end":3586.6,"text":"甚至最讓人家覺得心痛的事實上"},{"start":3586.6,"end":3588.6,"text":"有性侵跟性毀竊"},{"start":3589.48,"end":3591.48,"text":"已經超過半數了有66件"},{"start":3592.5,"end":3594.5,"text":"在這樣的比例底下"},{"start":3594.5,"end":3596.5,"text":"當然我們的蔣市長就講得很好聽"},{"start":3596.5,"end":3598.5,"text":"尤其在培若米札案件之後"},{"start":3598.5,"end":3600.5,"text":"他有出來道歉說自己是"},{"start":3600.5,"end":3602.5,"text":"台北市的大家長有責任保護孩子"},{"start":3602.5,"end":3604.5,"text":"會監討改進讓法令與"},{"start":3604.5,"end":3606.5,"text":"政策更完備避免類似的"},{"start":3606.5,"end":3608.5,"text":"事情發生講完之後"},{"start":3608.5,"end":3610.5,"text":"三年又發生了七起"},{"start":3610.5,"end":3612.5,"text":"的重大惡孽案件"},{"start":3612.68,"end":3614.68,"text":"造成這麼多孩子的傷害"},{"start":3614.68,"end":3616.68,"text":"所以就想來問部長幾個"},{"start":3616.68,"end":3618.68,"text":"目前我們現在"},{"start":3618.68,"end":3620.68,"text":"我們的"},{"start":3620.21,"end":3622.21,"text":"來我們辦公室"},{"start":3622.21,"end":3624.21,"text":"跟我們討論的案子裡面"},{"start":3624.21,"end":3626.21,"text":"我們想問幾個"},{"start":3626.21,"end":3628.21,"text":"就是說到底心理諮商"},{"start":3628.21,"end":3630.21,"text":"依法規我到底可做不可做"},{"start":3630.21,"end":3632.21,"text":"培若米札案3月12號"},{"start":3632.21,"end":3634.21,"text":"我們開完記者會"},{"start":3634.26,"end":3636.26,"text":"就可以申請心理諮商"},{"start":3636.26,"end":3638.26,"text":"可是之前他是完全不能申請"},{"start":3638.26,"end":3640.26,"text":"心理諮商為什麼在"},{"start":3640.26,"end":3642.26,"text":"2024年"},{"start":3642.26,"end":3644.26,"text":"3月12號我剛進來"},{"start":3644.26,"end":3646.26,"text":"開完記者會就可以申請"},{"start":3646.26,"end":3648.26,"text":"心理諮商可是在之前"},{"start":3648.26,"end":3650.26,"text":"他們是求助我們"},{"start":3650.26,"end":3652.26,"text":"那問題來了如果他2024年"},{"start":3652.26,"end":3654.26,"text":"申請心理諮商可以為什麼2025年"},{"start":3654.26,"end":3656.26,"text":"又加幼兒園又找上我們"},{"start":3656.26,"end":3658.26,"text":"說他沒有提供心理諮商"},{"start":3658.26,"end":3660.26,"text":"的費用同年"},{"start":3660.26,"end":3662.26,"text":"2025年一樣8月"},{"start":3662.26,"end":3664.26,"text":"為什麼一個進寶兒公館幼兒園"},{"start":3664.26,"end":3666.26,"text":"又可以申請心理諮商"},{"start":3666.26,"end":3668.26,"text":"法治社會"},{"start":3668.26,"end":3670.26,"text":"今天一個公部門在執行的時候"},{"start":3670.26,"end":3672.26,"text":"一下可以心理諮商一下不行"},{"start":3672.26,"end":3674.26,"text":"法定不是說他們可以提供心理諮商嗎"},{"start":3674.26,"end":3676.26,"text":"他們可以受到這樣的"},{"start":3676.26,"end":3678.26,"text":"服務嗎"},{"start":3678.16,"end":3680.16,"text":"12月一樣"},{"start":3680.16,"end":3682.16,"text":"歐洲學校幼兒園又是不能申請"},{"start":3682.16,"end":3684.16,"text":"心理諮商"},{"start":3684.59,"end":3686.59,"text":"有這麼多套標準嗎"},{"start":3686.59,"end":3688.59,"text":"心理諮商的依據標準是什麼"},{"start":3688.59,"end":3690.59,"text":"總部門每次我都在幫跟案家"},{"start":3690.59,"end":3692.59,"text":"開完記者會他就可以拿到心理諮商"},{"start":3693.5,"end":3695.5,"text":"謝謝委員基本上是可以的"},{"start":3695.5,"end":3697.5,"text":"而且可以我們還有補助"},{"start":3697.5,"end":3699.5,"text":"那在114學年"},{"start":3699.5,"end":3701.5,"text":"就目前這個學年"},{"start":3701.5,"end":3703.5,"text":"快要結束這個學年我們補助了2600萬"},{"start":3703.5,"end":3705.5,"text":"其中台北市等等"},{"start":3705.5,"end":3707.5,"text":"22縣市那"},{"start":3707.5,"end":3709.5,"text":"這種補助就表示這個是需要"},{"start":3709.5,"end":3711.5,"text":"而且也有來協助"},{"start":3711.5,"end":3713.5,"text":"那至於特殊個案剛剛"},{"start":3713.5,"end":3715.5,"text":"委員已經講了5個個案有些有有些沒有"},{"start":3715.5,"end":3717.5,"text":"這個我們馬上在一天內了解"},{"start":3717.5,"end":3719.5,"text":"跟您回報"},{"start":3719.5,"end":3721.5,"text":"好那更讓我覺得"},{"start":3721.5,"end":3723.5,"text":"接受的為什麼是監視器我不能看"},{"start":3723.5,"end":3725.5,"text":"好"},{"start":3725.5,"end":3727.5,"text":"培羅米達也是因為監視器不能看"},{"start":3727.5,"end":3729.5,"text":"就調查報告在2020年的時候"},{"start":3729.5,"end":3731.5,"text":"不成立所以2023年"},{"start":3731.5,"end":3733.5,"text":"結果有多少"},{"start":3733.5,"end":3735.5,"text":"小孩"},{"start":3734.99,"end":3736.99,"text":"1你不處理的時候"},{"start":3736.99,"end":3738.99,"text":"隔年39個孩子受害"},{"start":3738.99,"end":3740.99,"text":"都是性侵性違憲"},{"start":3740.99,"end":3742.99,"text":"所以到底監視器可不可以調查"},{"start":3742.99,"end":3744.99,"text":"結果又加又可以然後"},{"start":3744.99,"end":3746.99,"text":"進寶又可以到了歐洲學校"},{"start":3746.99,"end":3748.99,"text":"為什麼又不可以"},{"start":3747.85,"end":3749.85,"text":"這個標準到底是什麼"},{"start":3749.85,"end":3751.85,"text":"甚至我也想問調查報告"},{"start":3751.85,"end":3753.85,"text":"培羅米達家長問說"},{"start":3753.85,"end":3755.85,"text":"那我的調查結果是什麼結果"},{"start":3755.85,"end":3757.85,"text":"市府回答說你去看新聞"},{"start":3757.85,"end":3759.85,"text":"新聞稿看我的聲明稿"},{"start":3759.85,"end":3761.85,"text":"為什麼一個調查報告"},{"start":3761.85,"end":3763.85,"text":"我不能知道結果然後我必須看"},{"start":3763.85,"end":3765.85,"text":"聲明稿看政府的"},{"start":3765.85,"end":3767.85,"text":"一個新聞稿我才知道我的"},{"start":3767.85,"end":3769.85,"text":"調查結果我的孩子"},{"start":3769.85,"end":3771.85,"text":"有沒有被你們在"},{"start":3771.85,"end":3773.85,"text":"討論的時候確定他到底"},{"start":3773.85,"end":3775.85,"text":"有沒有受到傷害怎麼"},{"start":3775.85,"end":3777.85,"text":"我必須看新聞稿不是給我一個正式的通知"},{"start":3777.85,"end":3779.85,"text":"而且"},{"start":3779.85,"end":3781.85,"text":"更特別的是如果要看"},{"start":3781.85,"end":3783.85,"text":"這樣的一個我要看調查報告"},{"start":3783.85,"end":3785.85,"text":"看到什麼東西看到一大堆遮蔽"},{"start":3785.85,"end":3787.85,"text":"要嘛就是黑的要嘛就是說"},{"start":3787.85,"end":3789.85,"text":"從證人陳述的這些東西"},{"start":3789.85,"end":3791.85,"text":"都不能看我只能看到底下的一行字"},{"start":3792.92,"end":3794.92,"text":"這一行字"},{"start":3794.29,"end":3796.29,"text":"到底我要看到的是什麼我孩子的"},{"start":3796.29,"end":3798.29,"text":"整個我的陳我們的陳述"},{"start":3798.29,"end":3800.29,"text":"對方的陳述為什麼"},{"start":3800.29,"end":3802.29,"text":"行為人可以看到完整的"},{"start":3802.29,"end":3804.29,"text":"那反而事實上是受害人不能"},{"start":3804.29,"end":3806.29,"text":"看到這也是我這"},{"start":3806.29,"end":3808.29,"text":"三年來我們辦公室一直在爭取可是"},{"start":3808.29,"end":3810.29,"text":"至今都還是有這樣子的問題"},{"start":3810.29,"end":3812.29,"text":"調查報告到底有什麼"},{"start":3812.29,"end":3814.29,"text":"不可以看到筆錄在記錄的時候"},{"start":3814.29,"end":3816.29,"text":"我們在警方筆錄的時候"},{"start":3816.29,"end":3818.29,"text":"都可以看為什麼事實上是"},{"start":3818.29,"end":3820.29,"text":"這樣子的一個調查報告要嘛就遮蔽"},{"start":3820.29,"end":3822.29,"text":"到整個黑的要嘛就是貼上"},{"start":3822.29,"end":3824.29,"text":"一個東西說因為"},{"start":3824.29,"end":3826.29,"text":"從證人陳述可特定的人"},{"start":3826.29,"end":3828.29,"text":"為保障關係人權益都不可以提供"},{"start":3828.29,"end":3830.29,"text":"那我看這一坨"},{"start":3830.29,"end":3832.29,"text":"黑的東西我到底看到是什麼東西"},{"start":3832.29,"end":3834.29,"text":"甚至一頁我只看到兩行字"},{"start":3834.29,"end":3836.29,"text":"其他的我都看不到那我也不知道"},{"start":3836.29,"end":3838.29,"text":"調查報告為什麼又會"},{"start":3838.29,"end":3840.29,"text":"是這樣狀況"},{"start":3839.87,"end":3841.87,"text":"好剛才委員有兩點"},{"start":3841.87,"end":3843.87,"text":"一個是監視器一個是報告"},{"start":3843.87,"end":3845.87,"text":"那剛才委員也舉了"},{"start":3845.87,"end":3847.87,"text":"至少兩個案例來做對照"},{"start":3847.87,"end":3849.87,"text":"那在114年7月份"},{"start":3849.87,"end":3851.87,"text":"的全國局長會議之後"},{"start":3851.87,"end":3853.87,"text":"我們有承諾在監視器這一部分"},{"start":3853.87,"end":3855.87,"text":"的調閱應該要有一個合理"},{"start":3855.87,"end":3857.87,"text":"跟適當的來"},{"start":3857.87,"end":3859.87,"text":"配合調查的這個做法所以在"},{"start":3859.87,"end":3861.87,"text":"當年的10月29號"},{"start":3861.87,"end":3863.87,"text":"就訂出來那委員也知道我們再送給委員"},{"start":3863.87,"end":3865.87,"text":"委員也很多指導那至於報告"},{"start":3865.87,"end":3867.87,"text":"的部分大概都有一些相關相應"},{"start":3867.87,"end":3869.87,"text":"的類似的這個注意事項跟做法"},{"start":3869.87,"end":3871.87,"text":"那剛剛委員講的兩個個案"},{"start":3871.87,"end":3873.87,"text":"有一些不特定的情況"},{"start":3873.87,"end":3875.87,"text":"下做的作為好像讓委員覺得"},{"start":3875.87,"end":3877.87,"text":"有點質疑我們也一樣在這個"},{"start":3877.87,"end":3879.87,"text":"會後我們馬上蒐集這兩個個案做個對比"},{"start":3879.87,"end":3881.87,"text":"在什麼樣的情況下他會做"},{"start":3881.87,"end":3883.87,"text":"那種判斷有沒有依照規定以及他"},{"start":3883.87,"end":3885.87,"text":"實現上是不是當時注意事項之後"},{"start":3885.87,"end":3887.87,"text":"或之前再來一個是"},{"start":3887.87,"end":3889.87,"text":"剛剛委員有提到這整個"},{"start":3889.87,"end":3891.87,"text":"在調閱報告的時候讓"},{"start":3891.87,"end":3893.87,"text":"委員看到有一些感覺不知道"},{"start":3893.87,"end":3895.87,"text":"這個案情在說什麼很多遮蔽"},{"start":3895.87,"end":3897.87,"text":"如果他是符合相關的法規"},{"start":3897.87,"end":3899.87,"text":"那我們也要看他的適當性"},{"start":3899.87,"end":3901.87,"text":"這些我們都進行比較距離的監視"},{"start":3901.87,"end":3903.87,"text":"是不能遮到一個字都看不到整片是黑的"},{"start":3903.87,"end":3905.87,"text":"印給我們做什麼印給家長"},{"start":3905.87,"end":3907.87,"text":"做什麼甚至我更關心的叫停止"},{"start":3907.87,"end":3909.87,"text":"本來就把希望把"},{"start":3909.87,"end":3911.87,"text":"家害人跟孩子隔開"},{"start":3911.87,"end":3913.87,"text":"停止了嗎看這四個"},{"start":3913.87,"end":3915.87,"text":"就知道根本都沒在停止"},{"start":3915.87,"end":3917.87,"text":"像幼家幼兒園還到他們"},{"start":3917.87,"end":3919.87,"text":"照樣他們二樓的補習班"},{"start":3919.87,"end":3921.87,"text":"繼續工作孩子都還是會看到這個"},{"start":3921.87,"end":3923.87,"text":"老師害不害怕當然害怕"},{"start":3923.87,"end":3925.87,"text":"那一樣啊"},{"start":3925.87,"end":3927.87,"text":"進寶公館的幼兒園一樣啊"},{"start":3927.87,"end":3929.87,"text":"無論在現場"},{"start":3929.87,"end":3931.87,"text":"那當然更不用講"},{"start":3931.87,"end":3933.87,"text":"歐洲學校幼兒園還是一樣在"},{"start":3933.87,"end":3935.87,"text":"學校裡面如果你的"},{"start":3935.87,"end":3937.87,"text":"法規有停止為什麼"},{"start":3937.87,"end":3939.87,"text":"地方政府可以這樣做"},{"start":3939.87,"end":3941.87,"text":"所以家長就來問我們說"},{"start":3941.9,"end":3943.9,"text":"當地方政府"},{"start":3943.9,"end":3945.9,"text":"如此的荒腔走板的時候"},{"start":3946.1,"end":3948.1,"text":"家長問要怎麼他們要怎麼辦"},{"start":3949.29,"end":3951.29,"text":"只能走刑法嗎"},{"start":3951.29,"end":3953.29,"text":"或者找我們這些民代來開記者會嗎"},{"start":3953.29,"end":3955.29,"text":"還是繼續跟施暴的"},{"start":3955.29,"end":3957.29,"text":"孩子要繼續跟施暴的老師在現場嗎"},{"start":3957.29,"end":3959.29,"text":"這合理嗎"},{"start":3959.29,"end":3961.29,"text":"本來就是希望孩子能夠孩子"},{"start":3961.29,"end":3963.29,"text":"繼續去上學而不是孩子"},{"start":3963.29,"end":3965.29,"text":"要被隔開老師繼續去上班"},{"start":3965.98,"end":3967.98,"text":"包含委員所提到的"},{"start":3967.98,"end":3969.98,"text":"三大題"},{"start":3969.98,"end":3971.98,"text":"最後一題這些我們都會具體的了解"},{"start":3971.98,"end":3973.98,"text":"包含最後所提到的停職的"},{"start":3973.98,"end":3975.98,"text":"認定跟他的執行以上補充"},{"start":3975.98,"end":3977.98,"text":"甚至現在更荒謬的是"},{"start":3977.98,"end":3979.98,"text":"講完在裴若敏答案"},{"start":3979.98,"end":3981.98,"text":"有出來道歉說自己是"},{"start":3981.98,"end":3983.98,"text":"台北市家長有責任保護小孩"},{"start":3983.98,"end":3985.98,"text":"為什麼現在至今都不處理"},{"start":3985.98,"end":3987.98,"text":"國賠完全不處理國賠"},{"start":3987.98,"end":3989.98,"text":"然後呢不是承認自己的疏失嗎"},{"start":3989.98,"end":3990.98,"text":"為什麼不"},{"start":3990.98,"end":3992.98,"text":"所以我很贊成家長講的話"},{"start":3992.98,"end":3994.98,"text":"就是說今天"},{"start":3995.36,"end":3996.36,"text":"他們受害了"},{"start":3996.36,"end":3998.36,"text":"結果呢繳的罰款是給政府"},{"start":3998.36,"end":4000.36,"text":"心理諮商他們要自己出"},{"start":4000.36,"end":4002.36,"text":"司法訴訟要他們自己出"},{"start":4002.36,"end":4004.36,"text":"那到底事實上是政府賺了"},{"start":4004.36,"end":4006.36,"text":"滿盆滿缽之後"},{"start":4006.36,"end":4008.36,"text":"所有的代價事實上是"},{"start":4008.36,"end":4010.36,"text":"家長要負擔這合理嗎"},{"start":4010.49,"end":4012.49,"text":"怎麼會是國賠不去處理"},{"start":4012.49,"end":4014.49,"text":"然後呢家長要去走到"},{"start":4014.49,"end":4016.49,"text":"刑事法的一個訴訟"},{"start":4016.49,"end":4018.49,"text":"最後呢變成事實上"},{"start":4018.49,"end":4020.49,"text":"所有的不管是律師費"},{"start":4020.49,"end":4023.49,"text":"所有甚至心理諮商都要他們承擔"},{"start":4023.49,"end":4025.49,"text":"所以法律到底是在保護"},{"start":4025.49,"end":4027.49,"text":"加害人還是保護受害人"},{"start":4027.49,"end":4029.49,"text":"還有地方政府"},{"start":4029.49,"end":4031.49,"text":"怎麼樣保護我們的孩子"},{"start":4031.49,"end":4033.49,"text":"當他們沒有作為的時候"},{"start":4033.49,"end":4035.49,"text":"到底家長要怎麼辦"},{"start":4035.49,"end":4037.49,"text":"更何況我覺得像"},{"start":4037.49,"end":4039.49,"text":"也要來問外僑學校"},{"start":4039.49,"end":4041.49,"text":"到底是不是"},{"start":4042.81,"end":4044.81,"text":"而安的死角"},{"start":4044.81,"end":4046.81,"text":"為什麼這樣提"},{"start":4046.81,"end":4048.81,"text":"當這個台北歐洲學校"},{"start":4050.1,"end":4052.1,"text":"家長來跟我們求助的時候"},{"start":4052.1,"end":4054.1,"text":"他提到"},{"start":4053.09,"end":4055.09,"text":"他要調監視器"},{"start":4055.09,"end":4057.09,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":4055.92,"end":4057.92,"text":"出社拿什麼"},{"start":4057.92,"end":4059.92,"text":"拿我們的通用資料保護規則"},{"start":4059.92,"end":4061.92,"text":"我們的政府竟然拿這個規則說"},{"start":4061.92,"end":4063.92,"text":"不可以調閱我們的監視器畫面"},{"start":4063.92,"end":4065.92,"text":"還有請家長自己去"},{"start":4065.92,"end":4067.92,"text":"提明刑法"},{"start":4067.92,"end":4069.92,"text":"因為教育局不能處理"},{"start":4069.92,"end":4071.92,"text":"所以想問署長"},{"start":4071.43,"end":4073.43,"text":"請明確告訴我們外僑學校"},{"start":4073.43,"end":4075.43,"text":"在台灣辦學"},{"start":4075.43,"end":4077.43,"text":"收的是我們台灣的孩子"},{"start":4077.43,"end":4079.43,"text":"到底要不要一樣遵守"},{"start":4079.43,"end":4081.43,"text":"兒少犬法跟幼照法的相關規定"},{"start":4081.43,"end":4083.43,"text":"有些是一定要遵守"},{"start":4083.43,"end":4085.43,"text":"有一些特殊的情形"},{"start":4085.43,"end":4087.43,"text":"他們調查的適用"},{"start":4087.43,"end":4089.43,"text":"這個我們會做一個完整的"},{"start":4089.43,"end":4091.43,"text":"以及台北市政府如何回應委員的"},{"start":4091.43,"end":4093.43,"text":"整個訊息"},{"start":4093.43,"end":4095.43,"text":"我們完整的並入調查內"},{"start":4095.43,"end":4097.43,"text":"剛剛所提的包含台北市"},{"start":4097.43,"end":4099.43,"text":"我們7月16號給他要求了之後"},{"start":4099.43,"end":4101.43,"text":"他相關的調查7月28號已經廢止"},{"start":4101.43,"end":4103.43,"text":"另外我們請他在8月10號前"},{"start":4103.43,"end":4105.43,"text":"要把所有這整個處置的過程"},{"start":4105.43,"end":4107.43,"text":"給我們說明"},{"start":4107.43,"end":4109.43,"text":"會並入委員剛才提醒的幾件事情的調查"},{"start":4109.43,"end":4111.43,"text":"以上補充"},{"start":4111.86,"end":4113.86,"text":"我還是要講外僑學校在台灣辦學"},{"start":4113.86,"end":4115.86,"text":"收的是我們台灣的孩子"},{"start":4115.86,"end":4117.86,"text":"為什麼跟其他台灣本來就是"},{"start":4117.86,"end":4119.86,"text":"我們本地的辦學的制度"},{"start":41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錯的"},{"start":5030.3,"end":5032.3,"text":"那每一次質詢我第一頁就會問你"},{"start":5032.3,"end":5034.3,"text":"這個我會做一個電子儀標板"},{"start":5034.3,"end":5036.3,"text":"你沒有要調查20%這個決策"},{"start":5036.3,"end":5038.3,"text":"滾動"},{"start":5038.3,"end":5040.3,"text":"滾到這麼多"},{"start":5040.3,"end":5042.3,"text":"食物本來都在架上"},{"start":5042.3,"end":5044.3,"text":"後來全部下架"},{"start":5044.3,"end":5046.3,"text":"這個行政責任沒有人要負責"},{"start":5047.56,"end":5049.56,"text":"你自己說你上禮拜還說明"},{"start":5049.56,"end":5051.56,"text":"你會有負責"},{"start":5051.56,"end":5053.56,"text":"所有的處理都是按照科學的證據"},{"start":5053.56,"end":5055.56,"text":"風險的評估"},{"start":5055.56,"end":5057.56,"text":"動態的調整"},{"start":5057.56,"end":5059.56,"text":"任何事件都是這樣"},{"start":5059.56,"end":5061.56,"text":"科學的證據你自己還會說"},{"start":5061.56,"end":5063.56,"text":"自己怪怪的"},{"start":5063.56,"end":5065.56,"text":"後來陳其邁還會罵"},{"start":5065.56,"end":5067.56,"text":"就表示說石崔堂是對的"},{"start":5067.56,"end":5069.56,"text":"我跟委員一樣都不是食品的專家"},{"start":5069.56,"end":5071.56,"text":"所以我們當然要尊重"},{"start":5071.56,"end":5073.56,"text":"專家的決定"},{"start":5073.56,"end":5075.56,"text":"所以你的意思說陳其邁也不是食品的專家"},{"start":5075.56,"end":5077.56,"text":"所以他講錯了"},{"start":5077.56,"end":5079.56,"text":"不需要有人去追究20%"},{"start":5079.56,"end":5081.56,"text":"行政責任"},{"start":5081.89,"end":5083.89,"text":"這個都是按照程序走"},{"start":5083.89,"end":5085.89,"text":"我不認為這是什麼行政責任"},{"start":5085.89,"end":5087.89,"text":"再來我們來看一下"},{"start":5087.79,"end":5089.79,"text":"幾種上禮拜有人在講到"},{"start":5089.79,"end":5091.79,"text":"蘋果放寬容許值"},{"start":5091.79,"end":5093.79,"text":"我今天整理出不只蘋果"},{"start":5093.79,"end":5095.79,"text":"還有很多水果以及"},{"start":5095.79,"end":5097.79,"text":"大家每天都可能吃到的東西"},{"start":5097.79,"end":5099.79,"text":"居然在今年一下子放寬"},{"start":5099.79,"end":5101.79,"text":"非常多"},{"start":5101.79,"end":5103.79,"text":"我以前質詢過113年"},{"start":5103.79,"end":5105.79,"text":"草莓邊境攔下很多"},{"start":5105.79,"end":5107.79,"text":"違規的草莓後來呢"},{"start":5107.79,"end":5109.79,"text":"食藥署那個月"},{"start":5109.79,"end":5111.79,"text":"3月29就公佈說"},{"start":5111.79,"end":5113.79,"text":"要修正容許值"},{"start":5113.79,"end":5115.79,"text":"讓它高一點4月1號就施行了"},{"start":5115.79,"end":5117.79,"text":"我從我開始質詢到現在"},{"start":5117.79,"end":5119.79,"text":"我全部再去找一遍"},{"start":5119.79,"end":5121.79,"text":"結果發現"},{"start":5121.79,"end":5123.79,"text":"草莓一口氣開了12支農藥"},{"start":5123.79,"end":5125.79,"text":"其中11支標準"},{"start":5125.79,"end":5127.79,"text":"根本沒有這一項"},{"start":5127.79,"end":5129.79,"text":"也就是本來都是不得減出的喔"},{"start":5129.79,"end":5131.79,"text":"然後也沒有任何"},{"start":5131.79,"end":5133.79,"text":"申請人"},{"start":5133.79,"end":5135.79,"text":"是政府主動要申請的喔"},{"start":5135.79,"end":5137.79,"text":"這個跟王毓民委員問到"},{"start":5137.79,"end":5139.79,"text":"還有一家一樣的"},{"start":5139.79,"end":5141.79,"text":"駐插化學"},{"start":5141.79,"end":5143.79,"text":"全部都是外國的機構"},{"start":5143.79,"end":5145.79,"text":"外國的農藥公司"},{"start":5145.79,"end":5147.79,"text":"提出申請"},{"start":5147.79,"end":5149.79,"text":"食藥署要做的是什麼"},{"start":5149.79,"end":5151.79,"text":"你每天跟我們要預算說你們要"},{"start":5151.79,"end":5153.79,"text":"加強去稽查"},{"start":5153.79,"end":5155.79,"text":"加強查出哪一些違規"},{"start":5155.79,"end":5157.79,"text":"結果呢你們做了什麼"},{"start":5157.79,"end":5159.79,"text":"你們是開放"},{"start":5159.79,"end":5161.79,"text":"更多本來零減出的東西"},{"start":5161.79,"end":5163.79,"text":"的容許值"},{"start":5164.76,"end":5166.76,"text":"這個你知道嗎"},{"start":5166.38,"end":5168.38,"text":"這個還是一句話"},{"start":5168.38,"end":5170.38,"text":"食案就是一個科學的問題"},{"start":5170.38,"end":5172.38,"text":"都要經過風險的評估"},{"start":5172.38,"end":5174.38,"text":"等一下我都幫你回答就好了"},{"start":5174.38,"end":5176.38,"text":"這邊又有好多專家"},{"start":5176.38,"end":5178.38,"text":"然後等一下再一份份跟你要"},{"start":5178.38,"end":5180.38,"text":"然後你要再去跟專家問他們的名字"},{"start":5180.38,"end":5182.38,"text":"可不可以被公開"},{"start":5182.38,"end":5184.38,"text":"那等一下我幫你回答就好啦"},{"start":5185.31,"end":5187.31,"text":"表示委員很清楚我們"},{"start":5187.31,"end":5189.31,"text":"我們開下一個"},{"start":5188.2,"end":5190.2,"text":"蘋果"},{"start":5189.38,"end":5191.38,"text":"這個王一鳴我要問了"},{"start":5191.46,"end":5193.46,"text":"你一口氣放寬了六倍"},{"start":5193.46,"end":5195.46,"text":"我問你兩個問題就好了"},{"start":5195.46,"end":5197.46,"text":"裡面"},{"start":5197.26,"end":5199.26,"text":"業者提供26廠次的數據"},{"start":5199.26,"end":5201.26,"text":"22廠不符"},{"start":5201.26,"end":5203.26,"text":"你們只用了4個廠次的數據"},{"start":5203.26,"end":5205.26,"text":"這是第一個問題"},{"start":5207.08,"end":5209.08,"text":"他才4個廠次"},{"start":5209.08,"end":5211.08,"text":"所有在訂這些標準的時候"},{"start":5211.08,"end":5213.08,"text":"不是簡單的加減乘除"},{"start":5213.08,"end":5215.08,"text":"他都是經過"},{"start":5215.08,"end":5217.08,"text":"這個實驗上的"},{"start":5217.08,"end":5219.08,"text":"收集數據符合我們的"},{"start":5219.08,"end":5221.08,"text":"要求標準才能夠"},{"start":5221.08,"end":5223.08,"text":"被採納的科學證據"},{"start":5223.08,"end":5225.08,"text":"所以即使是數字"},{"start":5225.08,"end":5227.08,"text":"他不是簡單的加減乘除"},{"start":5227.08,"end":5229.08,"text":"那你看第二個數字"},{"start":5229.08,"end":5231.08,"text":"最後你們用了4廠"},{"start":5231.08,"end":5233.08,"text":"很荒謬的是26廠你們只用了4廠數據"},{"start":5233.08,"end":5235.08,"text":"很怪"},{"start":5235.08,"end":5237.08,"text":"這個就是我們採取嚴謹的"},{"start":5237.08,"end":5239.08,"text":"4廠數據的殘留量"},{"start":5239.08,"end":5243.08,"text":"訂出來是0.48到1.125ppm"},{"start":5243.08,"end":5245.08,"text":"你們把容許值修到3ppm"},{"start":5245.08,"end":5247.08,"text":"你看看右邊"},{"start":5247.08,"end":5249.08,"text":"日本自己訂2"},{"start":5249.08,"end":5251.08,"text":"歐盟0.01 澳洲0.00"},{"start":5251.18,"end":5253.18,"text":"這個是用推估的方式"},{"start":5253.18,"end":5255.18,"text":"去做出來的"},{"start":5255.18,"end":5257.18,"text":"但因為我們要設的是一個"},{"start":5257.18,"end":5259.18,"text":"容許值"},{"start":5259.18,"end":5261.18,"text":"不是一個絕對值"},{"start":5261.18,"end":5263.18,"text":"同一個分譜你拿"},{"start":5263.18,"end":5265.18,"text":"你回去看一下"},{"start":5265.18,"end":5267.18,"text":"你回去看一下"},{"start":5267.18,"end":5269.18,"text":"26廠次你用了4廠次"},{"start":5269.18,"end":5271.18,"text":"零頭"},{"start":5271.18,"end":5273.18,"text":"6個廠次你就用了6個廠次"},{"start":5276.56,"end":5278.56,"text":"沒有我們就是看看你的這個"},{"start":5278.56,"end":5280.56,"text":"一切依照科學的標準每一頁要回答到"},{"start":5280.56,"end":5282.56,"text":"哪一頁嘛"},{"start":5282.56,"end":5284.56,"text":"再來葡萄"},{"start":5284.56,"end":5286.56,"text":"這個也是全部都是食藥署的資料"},{"start":5286.56,"end":5288.56,"text":"食藥署裡面會有一個資料會講說"},{"start":5288.56,"end":5290.56,"text":"每一個農藥可能造成什麼影響"},{"start":5290.56,"end":5292.56,"text":"然後根據國際的標準"},{"start":5292.56,"end":5294.56,"text":"是什麼樣"},{"start":5294.56,"end":5296.56,"text":"這個是葡萄"},{"start":5296.56,"end":5298.56,"text":"葡萄它裡面講了一個亞派戰"},{"start":5298.56,"end":5300.56,"text":"它說美國環保署"},{"start":5300.56,"end":5302.56,"text":"劃分為"},{"start":5302.56,"end":5304.56,"text":"likely to be carcinogenic"},{"start":5304.56,"end":5306.56,"text":"癌症專家走了"},{"start":5307.72,"end":5309.72,"text":"有可能會致癌的意思"},{"start":5309.72,"end":5311.72,"text":"有可能會致癌喔"},{"start":5311.72,"end":5313.72,"text":"你本來這裡面根本是"},{"start":5313.72,"end":5315.72,"text":"零檢出的"},{"start":5315.72,"end":5317.72,"text":"也是因為有人提出申請你把它開放到"},{"start":5317.72,"end":5319.72,"text":"4ppm這邊"},{"start":5321.09,"end":5323.09,"text":"好"},{"start":5322.42,"end":5324.42,"text":"你講說"},{"start":5324.42,"end":5326.42,"text":"你大概不了解這整個"},{"start":5326.42,"end":5328.42,"text":"的制定的程序啦"},{"start":5328.42,"end":5330.42,"text":"第一個呢這所有的農藥"},{"start":5330.42,"end":5332.42,"text":"是有人施用的時候"},{"start":5332.42,"end":5334.42,"text":"我們才會去訂定"},{"start":5334.42,"end":5336.42,"text":"我們不會一下子把所有的農藥"},{"start":5336.42,"end":5338.42,"text":"通通拿來訂標準"},{"start":5338.42,"end":5340.42,"text":"一定要有人施用"},{"start":5340.42,"end":5342.42,"text":"有施用我們才會進入科學評估"},{"start":5342.42,"end":5344.42,"text":"科學評估的數據"},{"start":5344.42,"end":5346.42,"text":"必須含納了"},{"start":5346.42,"end":5348.42,"text":"健康風險評估"},{"start":5348.42,"end":5350.42,"text":"跟施重的方式"},{"start":5350.42,"end":5352.42,"text":"以及當地的疾病"},{"start":5352.42,"end":5354.42,"text":"這些農作物的疾病"},{"start":5354.42,"end":5356.42,"text":"相關的風險"},{"start":5356.42,"end":5358.42,"text":"以及人體的食用的"},{"start":5358.42,"end":5360.42,"text":"我等一下列給你"},{"start":5360.42,"end":5362.42,"text":"你13年到15年開放了多少"},{"start":5362.42,"end":5364.42,"text":"第一風險評估"},{"start":5364.42,"end":5366.42,"text":"你剛剛講的很好"},{"start":5366.42,"end":5368.42,"text":"我們的風險評估只有訂19到65歲"},{"start":5368.42,"end":5370.42,"text":"60公斤成年人每天的"},{"start":5370.42,"end":5372.42,"text":"這個攝取的習慣"},{"start":5372.42,"end":5374.42,"text":"等等訂出來的"},{"start":5374.23,"end":5376.23,"text":"你回去翻"},{"start":5376.23,"end":5378.23,"text":"114年你放開的"},{"start":5377.57,"end":5379.57,"text":"櫻桃你有寫"},{"start":5379.57,"end":5381.57,"text":"其他族群應該是脆弱族群"},{"start":5381.57,"end":5383.57,"text":"小朋友或老人的意思"},{"start":5383.57,"end":5385.57,"text":"蘋果你就沒分"},{"start":5385.57,"end":5387.57,"text":"你也沒告訴我們為什麼"},{"start":5387.57,"end":5389.57,"text":"你也沒告訴我們為什麼每一種水果"},{"start":5389.57,"end":5391.57,"text":"標準不一樣"},{"start":5391.57,"end":5393.57,"text":"場次不一樣"},{"start":5393.57,"end":5395.57,"text":"或者是沒有根據不同的族群的"},{"start":5395.57,"end":5397.57,"text":"食用習慣去訂出來"},{"start":5397.57,"end":5399.57,"text":"今年最誇張"},{"start":5399.57,"end":5401.57,"text":"174項"},{"start":5401.57,"end":5403.57,"text":"有173項是加寬"},{"start":5403.57,"end":5405.57,"text":"容許值放寬"},{"start":5405.57,"end":5407.57,"text":"173項是向下調降"},{"start":5407.57,"end":5409.57,"text":"就是我剛剛講的櫻桃"},{"start":5409.57,"end":5411.57,"text":"你覺得有脆弱族群特定族群"},{"start":5411.57,"end":5413.57,"text":"可能短期內食用非常多"},{"start":5413.57,"end":5415.57,"text":"而這173項"},{"start":5415.57,"end":5417.57,"text":"158是不得減出的"},{"start":5417.57,"end":5419.57,"text":"現在它有容許值了"},{"start":5419.57,"end":5421.57,"text":"15項是往上提高的"},{"start":5421.63,"end":5423.63,"text":"然後更誇張的"},{"start":5424.13,"end":5426.13,"text":"113年跟今年"},{"start":5426.13,"end":5428.13,"text":"是你開放最多放寬的"},{"start":5428.13,"end":5430.13,"text":"我看了一下左邊"},{"start":5430.13,"end":5432.13,"text":"全部都是我們都會吃的喔"},{"start":5432.13,"end":5434.13,"text":"蘋果草莓柳橙"},{"start":5434.13,"end":5436.13,"text":"柑橘類茶"},{"start":5436.01,"end":5438.01,"text":"然後你看最後一邊"},{"start":5438.01,"end":5440.01,"text":"驗出及違規的國家有這麼多"},{"start":5440.01,"end":5442.01,"text":"你在這一個月的備詢裡面"},{"start":5442.01,"end":5444.01,"text":"你掛在嘴上的就是"},{"start":5444.01,"end":5446.01,"text":"一切以風險評估"},{"start":5446.01,"end":5448.01,"text":"專家科學理性"},{"start":5448.01,"end":5450.01,"text":"接軌國際"},{"start":5450.84,"end":5452.84,"text":"人家有的東西你都有你接軌了"},{"start":5452.84,"end":5454.84,"text":"人家沒有的東西你放寬了"},{"start":5454.84,"end":5456.84,"text":"你這樣叫接軌嗎"},{"start":5458.3,"end":5461.3,"text":"跟委員說明台灣不是一個農糧"},{"start":5461.3,"end":5463.3,"text":"可以完全自給自足的國家"},{"start":5463.3,"end":5466.3,"text":"所以我們必須要有進口"},{"start":5466.3,"end":5469.3,"text":"所以各國對於農藥的施作不同"},{"start":5469.3,"end":5472.3,"text":"所以我們才會依據科學的標準"},{"start":5472.3,"end":5474.3,"text":"然後參考了其他世界上的國家"},{"start":5474.3,"end":5476.3,"text":"然後去"},{"start":5476.09,"end":5478.09,"text":"召開專家會議去評估"},{"start":5478.09,"end":5480.09,"text":"驗出及違規這些國家"},{"start":5480.09,"end":5482.09,"text":"這些國家也不堪考了"},{"start":5482.09,"end":5484.09,"text":"美國、歐盟、澳洲"},{"start":5484.09,"end":5486.09,"text":"我們常常放寬"},{"start":5486.09,"end":5488.09,"text":"就掛在嘴巴上的國家"},{"start":5488.09,"end":5490.09,"text":"國內沒有用、國外會用"},{"start":5490.09,"end":5492.09,"text":"那我們就會去定"},{"start":5492.09,"end":5494.09,"text":"這就是為國人的健康標準把關"},{"start":5494.09,"end":5496.09,"text":"然後也讓"},{"start":5496.09,"end":5498.09,"text":"這個食物能夠足夠供應國人"},{"start":5498.09,"end":5500.09,"text":"大家看到這張表"},{"start":5500.09,"end":5502.09,"text":"只會知道說"},{"start":5502.09,"end":5504.09,"text":"知道為什麼了原來"},{"start":5504.09,"end":5506.09,"text":"我們有風險、喝水也有風險"},{"start":5506.09,"end":5508.09,"text":"然後我們訂出來的容許值"},{"start":5508.09,"end":5510.09,"text":"居然其他國家是沒有的"},{"start":5510.09,"en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":5753.51,"end":5755.51,"text":"目前是不支持安樂死的"},{"start":5755.51,"end":5757.51,"text":"那我想請問您支持安樂死公投嗎"},{"start":5759.16,"end":5761.16,"text":"就是說應該要來推動安樂死公投"},{"start":5761.16,"end":5763.16,"text":"交付社會來對安樂死的意見"},{"start":5763.16,"end":5765.16,"text":"我認為"},{"start":5765.16,"end":5767.16,"text":"這個題目涉及到"},{"start":5767.16,"end":5769.16,"text":"生命法義"},{"start":5769.16,"end":5771.16,"text":"不是簡單的公投議題"},{"start":5771.16,"end":5773.16,"text":"它應該經過社會的"},{"start":5773.16,"end":5775.16,"text":"充分溝通"},{"start":5775.16,"end":5777.16,"text":"不是yes or no這麼簡單"},{"start":5777.16,"end":5779.16,"text":"公投沒有要表達yes or no"},{"start":5779.16,"end":5781.16,"text":"也是要收集大家的意見"},{"start":5781.16,"end":5783.16,"text":"因為你的書面報告今天呈現出來"},{"start":5783.16,"end":5785.16,"text":"要收集資料凝聚社會共識"},{"start":5785.16,"end":5787.16,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":5787.16,"end":5789.16,"text":"如果你要透過公投你要怎麼樣凝聚社會共識"},{"start":5789.16,"end":5791.16,"text":"公投就是一種方式"},{"start":5791.16,"end":5793.16,"text":"公投是一種最好的方式"},{"start":5793.16,"end":5795.16,"text":"也就是賴清德口中所言的"},{"start":5795.16,"end":5797.16,"text":"最大的民主廣泛的收集"},{"start":5797.16,"end":5799.16,"text":"就像我們的報告裡面有提到"},{"start":5799.16,"end":5801.16,"text":"它涉及的層面非常寬"},{"start":5801.16,"end":5803.16,"text":"所以應該要多"},{"start":5803.16,"end":5805.16,"text":"就是說好像有點在迴避的那種感覺"},{"start":5805.16,"end":5807.16,"text":"就是說好像有點在迴避的那種感覺"},{"start":5807.16,"end":5809.16,"text":"其實就是支持或不支持"},{"start":5809.16,"end":5811.16,"text":"就是一句話"},{"start":5811.16,"end":5813.16,"text":"其實就很好表達那感覺你好像在迴轉"},{"start":5813.16,"end":5815.16,"text":"然後再繞然後再迴避的感覺"},{"start":5815.16,"end":5817.16,"text":"我不認為這個是一個好的公投的議題"},{"start":5817.16,"end":5819.16,"text":"我不覺得安樂死"},{"start":5819.16,"end":5821.16,"text":"所以你不支持"},{"start":5821.16,"end":5823.16,"text":"更多的討論因為這個討論的層面是非常大的"},{"start":5823.16,"end":5825.16,"text":"所以為何不支持"},{"start":5825.16,"end":5827.16,"text":"收集意見也支持凝聚社會共識"},{"start":5827.16,"end":5829.16,"text":"但不建議用公投的方式"},{"start":5829.16,"end":5831.16,"text":"來處理"},{"start":5831.16,"end":5833.16,"text":"好那接著我問"},{"start":5833.16,"end":5835.16,"text":"就是因為你們的司長"},{"start":5835.16,"end":5837.16,"text":"有曾經接受採訪提到說安樂死不能夠解決現在的問題"},{"start":5837.16,"end":5839.16,"text":"反而按您緩和疫調條例才能"},{"start":5839.16,"end":5841.16,"text":"那我現在問一個問題"},{"start":5841.16,"end":5843.16,"text":"請問一下這個四十八歲的弟弟"},{"start":5843.16,"end":5845.16,"text":"他就跑到瑞士去接受安樂死"},{"start":5845.16,"end":5847.16,"text":"那就是目前的安寧緩和"},{"start":5847.16,"end":5849.16,"text":"醫療條例不能解決他的問題"},{"start":5849.16,"end":5851.16,"text":"他才求助於瑞士的安樂死制度"},{"start":5851.16,"end":5853.16,"text":"那為什麼你們覺得安樂死不能解決問題"},{"start":5853.16,"end":5855.16,"text":"反而是安寧緩和醫療條例才能夠解決"},{"start":5855.16,"end":5857.16,"text":"安寧緩和醫療條例如果對"},{"start":5857.16,"end":5859.16,"text":"個案他不是默契病人"},{"start":5859.16,"end":5861.16,"text":"他根本走不進去安寧緩和醫療條例的世界"},{"start":5861.16,"end":5863.16,"text":"我們有多少人是默契病人"},{"start":5863.16,"end":5865.16,"text":"其實沒有"},{"start":5865.16,"end":5867.16,"text":"有很多需求的人他們不是默契病人"},{"start":5867.16,"end":5869.16,"text":"他走不進去安寧緩和醫療條例"},{"start":5869.16,"end":5871.16,"text":"他根本走不進去安寧緩和醫療條例的世界"},{"start":5871.16,"end":5873.16,"text":"他根本走不進去安寧緩和醫療條例的世界"},{"start":5873.16,"end":5875.16,"text":"他安寧緩和醫療條例解決不了他的問題"},{"start":5875.16,"end":5877.16,"text":"他根本走不進去安寧緩和醫療條例解決不了他的問題"},{"start":5877.16,"end":5879.16,"text":"所以跟你們這邊講的相反"},{"start":5879.16,"end":5881.16,"text":"你們是覺得安寧緩和條例可以解決問題"},{"start":5881.16,"end":5883.16,"text":"安樂死不能"},{"start":5883.69,"end":5885.69,"text":"我們不論是目前的安寧緩和條例或病主法"},{"start":5885.69,"end":5887.69,"text":"我們不論是目前的安寧緩和條例或病主法"},{"start":5887.69,"end":5889.69,"text":"他在執行這個"},{"start":5889.69,"end":5891.69,"text":"預定醫療他的決定"},{"start":5891.69,"end":5893.69,"text":"其實都是針對"},{"start":5893.69,"end":5895.69,"text":"這個"},{"start":5895.75,"end":5897.75,"text":"生命的默契去進行"},{"start":5897.75,"end":5899.75,"text":"但48歲的弟弟不是默契"},{"start":5899.75,"end":5901.75,"text":"你的生命"},{"start":5901.75,"end":5903.75,"text":"你的生命已經在可預期的中逼"},{"start":5903.75,"end":5905.75,"text":"所以他走不進去安寧緩和醫療條例的世界"},{"start":5905.75,"end":5907.75,"text":"我們才會用這個方式來處理"},{"start":5907.75,"end":5909.75,"text":"請問一下部長"},{"start":5909.75,"end":5911.75,"text":"剛剛您提的這個個案呢"},{"start":5911.75,"end":5913.75,"text":"他的判斷"},{"start":5913.75,"end":5915.75,"text":"他不是默契病人"},{"start":5915.75,"end":5917.75,"text":"所以安寧緩和條例不能解決他的問題"},{"start":5917.75,"end":5919.75,"text":"是沒有辦法馬上"},{"start":5919.75,"end":5921.75,"text":"就是以這個消極的方式"},{"start":5921.75,"end":5923.75,"text":"去讓他"},{"start":5923.75,"end":5925.75,"text":"所以反而是應該要積極的協助他"},{"start":5925.75,"end":5927.75,"text":"積極的協助"},{"start":5927.75,"end":5929.75,"text":"所以他跑到瑞士去尋求安樂死的做法"},{"start":5929.75,"end":5931.75,"text":"我想"},{"start":5931.75,"end":5933.75,"text":"不論是我們的醫療跟社會的協助"},{"start":5933.75,"end":5935.75,"text":"都應該要"},{"start":5935.75,"end":5937.75,"text":"所以我只是想要跟衛福部溝通說"},{"start":5937.75,"end":5939.75,"text":"你們不能夠武斷的說安樂死不能解決問題"},{"start":5939.75,"end":5941.75,"text":"安寧緩和要條例才能解決"},{"start":5941.75,"end":5943.75,"text":"事實上我們看到的案例就是相反"},{"start":5943.75,"end":5945.75,"text":"安寧緩和醫療條例解決不了問題"},{"start":5945.75,"end":5947.75,"text":"是安樂死才可以"},{"start":5947.75,"end":5949.75,"text":"那當然安樂死是一個有爭議"},{"start":5949.75,"end":5951.75,"text":"需要凝聚社會共識的方式"},{"start":5951.75,"end":5953.75,"text":"好來接著問好"},{"start":5953.75,"end":5955.75,"text":"市長也有提到說喊病本來就是在病人自主權利法"},{"start":5955.75,"end":5957.75,"text":"的範圍之內"},{"start":5957.75,"end":5959.75,"text":"那只要透過預立醫療決定"},{"start":5959.75,"end":5961.75,"text":"然後在疾病末期的時候就有"},{"start":5961.75,"end":5963.75,"text":"拒絕醫療的權利所以可以達到相同的效果"},{"start":5963.75,"end":5965.75,"text":"請問一下這個"},{"start":5965.75,"end":5967.75,"text":"地底他能夠使用"},{"start":5967.75,"end":5969.75,"text":"病人自主權利法嗎"},{"start":5969.75,"end":5971.75,"text":"不能因為病人自主權利法的第五"},{"start":5971.75,"end":5973.75,"text":"款有規定11種病人"},{"start":5973.75,"end":5975.75,"text":"他不在這個範圍之內"},{"start":5975.75,"end":5977.75,"text":"之外還有他要啟動"},{"start":5977.75,"end":5979.75,"text":"使用病人自主權利法"},{"start":5979.75,"end":5981.75,"text":"給他上中的機會"},{"start":5981.75,"end":5983.75,"text":"只有一個要件就是他必須在"},{"start":5983.75,"end":5985.75,"text":"幾乎是接近疾病末期"},{"start":5985.75,"end":5987.75,"text":"這個地底48歲"},{"start":5987.75,"end":5989.75,"text":"他什麼時候才能夠接近疾病末期"},{"start":5989.75,"end":5991.75,"text":"也可能是十年後也可能是二十年後"},{"start":5991.75,"end":5993.75,"text":"但是他目前就有需要了"},{"start":5993.75,"end":5995.75,"text":"因為他想尊嚴三中"},{"start":5995.75,"end":5997.75,"text":"所以你們說病人自主權利法"},{"start":5997.75,"end":5999.75,"text":"可以達到跟安樂死相同的效果"},{"start":5999.75,"end":6001.75,"text":"根本達到不了因為這個48"},{"start":6001.75,"end":6003.75,"text":"歲的地底現在如果要透過"},{"start":6003.75,"end":6005.75,"text":"病人自主權利法他沒有辦法尊嚴"},{"start":6005.75,"end":6007.75,"text":"三中然後他只能夠去瑞士"},{"start":6007.75,"end":6009.75,"text":"尋求安樂死才能夠尊嚴三中"},{"start":6009.75,"end":6011.75,"text":"一個是不可以一個是可以請問"},{"start":6011.75,"end":6013.75,"text":"怎麼可能怎麼會得出"},{"start":6013.75,"end":6015.75,"text":"一個結論說會達到相同的效果"},{"start":6015.75,"end":6017.75,"text":"我想請教部長就如同委員"},{"start":6017.75,"end":6019.75,"text":"你也同意安樂死是一個"},{"start":6019.75,"end":6021.75,"text":"充滿社會爭議的議題"},{"start":6021.75,"end":6023.75,"text":"我本人是贊同的"},{"start":6023.75,"end":6025.75,"text":"我本人非常贊同"},{"start":6025.75,"end":6027.75,"text":"但是我們從歷史上來看"},{"start":6027.75,"end":6029.75,"text":"也是一樣我們的安寧"},{"start":6029.75,"end":6031.75,"text":"黃河表演現在"},{"start":6031.75,"end":6033.75,"text":"多於反對的意見社會的範圍"},{"start":6033.75,"end":6035.75,"text":"不一樣的所以社會是在進步"},{"start":6035.75,"end":6037.75,"text":"社會在進步"},{"start":6037.75,"end":6039.75,"text":"在2000年以前我們沒有"},{"start":6039.75,"end":6041.75,"text":"安寧黃河條例"},{"start":6041.75,"end":6043.75,"text":"2000年才有安寧黃河條例"},{"start":6043.75,"end":6045.75,"text":"所以我們以下之一是"},{"start":6045.75,"end":6047.75,"text":"2019年我們就"},{"start":6047.75,"end":6049.75,"text":"實施了這個病人"},{"start":6049.75,"end":6051.75,"text":"自主權利法所以這個社會會進步"},{"start":6051.75,"end":6053.75,"text":"的所以你的意思是"},{"start":6053.75,"end":6055.75,"text":"台灣未來會執行"},{"start":6055.75,"end":6057.75,"text":"以你身為部長你覺得"},{"start":6057.75,"end":6059.75,"text":"台灣的成熟度要多少年"},{"start":6059.75,"end":6061.75,"text":"之後才會通過安樂死三度"},{"start":6061.75,"end":6063.75,"text":"我沒有辦法去預期"},{"start":6063.75,"end":6065.75,"text":"我們到2000年的時候"},{"start":6065.75,"end":6067.75,"text":"我們在2000年的時候"},{"start":6067.75,"end":6069.75,"text":"才有安寧黃河"},{"start":6069.75,"end":6071.75,"text":"可是很快的在十幾年後"},{"start":6071.75,"end":6073.75,"text":"我們又有了病人自主權利法"},{"start":6073.75,"end":6075.75,"text":"請問一下部長 施長說"},{"start":6075.75,"end":6077.75,"text":"病人自主權利法跟安樂死"},{"start":6077.75,"end":6079.75,"text":"一樣可以達到相同的效果"},{"start":6079.75,"end":6081.75,"text":"請問您認同嗎"},{"start":6082.83,"end":6084.83,"text":"我剛剛已經提過我們都在朝"},{"start":6084.83,"end":6086.83,"text":"尊嚴善終的目標"},{"start":6086.83,"end":6088.83,"text":"在努力啦"},{"start":6088.83,"end":6090.83,"text":"那你就講不出時間表"},{"start":6090.83,"end":6092.83,"text":"如果今天身為一個負責任的部長"},{"start":6092.83,"end":6094.83,"text":"應該給我們一個例如說"},{"start":6094.83,"end":6096.83,"text":"兩年三年讓這些"},{"start":6096.83,"end":6098.83,"text":"期待透過安樂死"},{"start":6098.83,"end":6100.83,"text":"的方式來尊嚴善終的人"},{"start":6100.83,"end":6102.83,"text":"看到未來一絲曙光"},{"start":6102.83,"end":6104.83,"text":"來我問一個問題 醫師施了施長說"},{"start":6104.83,"end":6106.83,"text":"安樂死是因為痛苦解決病人"},{"start":6106.83,"end":6108.83,"text":"安寧黃河醫療條例是因為病人解決痛苦"},{"start":6108.83,"end":6110.83,"text":"完全很像繞口令"},{"start":6110.83,"end":6112.83,"text":"那我橫批一句不知所云"},{"start":6112.83,"end":6114.83,"text":"請部長幫我們開示這句話"},{"start":6114.83,"end":6116.83,"text":"什麼叫做安樂死是因為痛苦解決病人"},{"start":6116.83,"end":6118.83,"text":"安寧黃河醫療條例是因為病人解決痛苦"},{"start":6118.83,"end":6120.83,"text":"幫我們開示這兩句話當中的差別好不好"},{"start":6126.28,"end":6128.28,"text":"為什麼一個是解決病人一個是解決痛苦"},{"start":6128.28,"end":6130.28,"text":"可以部長幫我們開示一下嗎"},{"start":6130.28,"end":6132.28,"text":"我想在安寧黃河醫療當中"},{"start":6132.28,"end":6134.28,"text":"的疼痛控制"},{"start":6134.28,"end":6136.28,"text":"是很重要的一環"},{"start":6136.28,"end":6138.28,"text":"所以它有pan control"},{"start":6138.28,"end":6140.28,"text":"所以在安寧黃河"},{"start":6140.28,"end":6142.28,"text":"醫療的過程當中"},{"start":6142.28,"end":6144.28,"text":"當然是在解決病人的痛苦"},{"start":6144.28,"end":6146.28,"text":"但是今天的安樂死"},{"start":6146.28,"end":6148.28,"text":"最後不思於插管"},{"start":6148.28,"end":6150.28,"text":"在安樂死的法案裡面"},{"start":6150.28,"end":6152.28,"text":"特別提到一個比較容易"},{"start":6152.28,"end":6154.28,"text":"讓大家爭議的"},{"start":6154.28,"end":6156.28,"text":"就是因為痛苦無法解決"},{"start":6156.28,"end":6158.28,"text":"就施行安樂死"},{"start":6158.28,"end":6160.28,"text":"什麼叫做無法忍受痛苦"},{"start":6160.28,"end":6162.28,"text":"這個當然它就"},{"start":6162.28,"end":6164.28,"text":"其實剛剛也提到疏作法不一樣"},{"start":6164.28,"end":6166.28,"text":"一個是透過積極的手段"},{"start":6166.28,"end":6168.28,"text":"那個叫做安樂死"},{"start":6168.28,"end":6170.28,"text":"消極的手段叫做安寧黃河醫療條例"},{"start":6170.28,"end":6172.28,"text":"兩個都是相同的目的"},{"start":6172.28,"end":6174.28,"text":"只是因為它的手段不一樣"},{"start":6174.28,"end":6176.28,"text":"那怎麼會一個是解決痛苦"},{"start":6176.28,"end":6178.28,"text":"一個是解決病人"},{"start":6178.28,"end":6180.28,"text":"所以我覺得這個是不是失言了"},{"start":6180.28,"end":6182.28,"text":"而且這個聽在這個有需求的人的眼中"},{"start":6182.28,"end":6184.28,"text":"其實也覺得蠻殘酷蠻冷漠的"},{"start":6184.28,"end":6186.28,"text":"蠻不食人間煙火"},{"start":6186.28,"end":6188.28,"text":"所以我覺得橫批就是不知所云"},{"start":6188.28,"end":6190.28,"text":"好來那現在簡單講一下"},{"start":6190.28,"end":6192.28,"text":"就是我們柯文哲主席"},{"start":6192.28,"end":6194.28,"text":"就提到這個48歲的弟弟"},{"start":6194.28,"end":6196.28,"text":"其實他就是因為照顧自己"},{"start":6196.28,"end":6198.28,"text":"喊病的媽媽"},{"start":6198.28,"end":6200.28,"text":"然後知道這整個照顧過程非常的漫長"},{"start":6200.28,"end":6202.28,"text":"然後他自己日後有可能會面對"},{"start":6202.28,"end":6204.28,"text":"然後再加上長照的量能又不足"},{"start":6204.28,"end":6206.28,"text":"所以他做了審慎的評估之後"},{"start":6206.28,"end":6208.28,"text":"他覺得"},{"start":6208.28,"end":6210.28,"text":"他要到瑞士去接受安樂死"},{"start":6210.28,"end":6212.28,"text":"所以一句話啦"},{"start":6212.28,"end":6214.28,"text":"如果人可以活得下去為什麼要選擇死亡"},{"start":6214.28,"end":6216.28,"text":"是不是長照的量能不足"},{"start":6216.28,"end":6218.28,"text":"然後人沒有辦法尊嚴善終"},{"start":6218.28,"end":6220.28,"text":"所以安樂死就成為這個無奈的解方"},{"start":6220.28,"end":6222.28,"text":"部長請問你認同嗎"},{"start":6224.17,"end":6226.17,"text":"長照量能不足安樂死就成為這個無奈的解方"},{"start":6226.17,"end":6228.17,"text":"如果是從委員的這個論點"},{"start":6228.17,"end":6230.17,"text":"那更不應該有安樂死"},{"start":6230.17,"end":6232.17,"text":"讓他合法化"},{"start":6232.17,"end":6234.17,"text":"因為其他國家"},{"start":6234.17,"end":6236.17,"text":"在安樂死有實行的"},{"start":6236.17,"end":6238.17,"text":"最擔心的就是委員所提出的問題"},{"start":6238.17,"end":6240.17,"text":"那就是因為對整個政府的壓力"},{"start":6240.17,"end":6242.17,"text":"經濟的壓力"},{"start":6242.17,"end":6244.17,"text":"或社會的支持不足"},{"start":6244.17,"end":6246.17,"text":"然後變成壓垮多多"},{"start":6246.17,"end":6248.17,"text":"最後一根倒爬"},{"start":6248.17,"end":6250.17,"text":"我想社會的資源"},{"start":6250.17,"end":6252.17,"text":"的局應該就是"},{"start":6252.17,"end":6254.17,"text":"資源的局應該就是"},{"start":6254.17,"end":6256.17,"text":"不應該是用這樣的論點"},{"start":6256.17,"end":6258.17,"text":"但你們又接不起這個病人"},{"start":6258.17,"end":6260.17,"text":"接不起這個人"},{"start":6260.17,"end":6262.17,"text":"又不准他去接受安樂死"},{"start":6262.17,"end":6264.17,"text":"其實這也是不食人間煙火的一個看法"},{"start":6264.17,"end":6266.17,"text":"我們柯主席說"},{"start":6266.17,"end":6268.17,"text":"要去思考醫生最大的敵人"},{"start":6268.17,"end":6270.17,"text":"到底是病人的死亡還是病人的痛苦"},{"start":6270.17,"end":6272.17,"text":"如果敵人是病人的死亡"},{"start":6272.17,"end":6274.17,"text":"那麼我們就為了病人"},{"start":6274.17,"end":6276.17,"text":"一路拼到底給他一個"},{"start":6276.17,"end":6278.17,"text":"康復的機會"},{"start":6278.17,"end":6280.17,"text":"但是如果是選擇病人的痛苦那就要討論他們"},{"start":6280.17,"end":6282.17,"text":"有沒有生命的自主權"},{"start":6282.17,"end":6284.17,"text":"所以剛我們一路講下來"},{"start":6284.17,"end":6286.17,"text":"不管是積極的安樂死或消極的安樂死"},{"start":6286.17,"end":6288.17,"text":"就是現在安寧環合條例"},{"start":6288.17,"end":6290.17,"text":"或者病人自主權利法"},{"start":6290.17,"end":6292.17,"text":"其實都是解決問題的不同方法而已"},{"start":6292.17,"end":6294.17,"text":"所以人"},{"start":6294.17,"end":6296.17,"text":"如果真的台灣的制度可以用他們"},{"start":6296.17,"end":6298.17,"text":"不會遠赴瑞士去尋求安樂死"},{"start":6298.17,"end":6300.17,"text":"一定是台灣的制度接不住他們"},{"start":6300.17,"end":6302.17,"text":"所以這時候"},{"start":6302.17,"end":6304.17,"text":"我們其實應該要讓這麼"},{"start":6304.17,"end":6306.17,"text":"爭議的話題"},{"start":6306.17,"end":6308.17,"text":"當然社會氛圍改變了現在支持安樂死"},{"start":6308.17,"end":6310.17,"text":"高達百分之七八十"},{"start":6310.17,"end":6312.17,"text":"但我們覺得還是要交付公投"},{"start":6312.17,"end":6314.17,"text":"來收集社會的意見"},{"start":6314.17,"end":6316.17,"text":"然後台灣民眾黨也以社會的民意"},{"start":6316.17,"end":6318.17,"text":"作為推動法案的一個基礎"},{"start":6318.17,"end":6320.17,"text":"好來最後部長"},{"start":6320.17,"end":6322.17,"text":"一個月內請提供報告"},{"start":6322.17,"end":6324.17,"text":"安寧環合條例跟病人自主權利法"},{"start":6324.17,"end":6326.17,"text":"如何解決這個"},{"start":6326.17,"end":6328.17,"text":"48歲喊病弟弟的問題"},{"start":6328.17,"end":6330.17,"text":"你有辦法解決"},{"start":6330.17,"end":6332.17,"text":"因為你們從第一張PPT"},{"start":6332.17,"end":6334.17,"text":"你們說效果相同"},{"start":6334.17,"end":6336.17,"text":"然後呢安寧環合條例是解方"},{"start":6336.17,"end":6338.17,"text":"問題是請問一下這48歲的喊病弟弟"},{"start":6338.17,"end":6340.17,"text":"可以被現行的安寧環合條例"},{"start":6340.17,"end":6342.17,"text":"跟病人自主權利法"},{"start":6342.17,"end":6344.17,"text":"所接觸嗎我的答案是不行"},{"start":6344.17,"end":6346.17,"text":"你的答案是可以請給我一份分析報告"},{"start":6346.17,"end":6348.17,"text":"再來第二個就是台灣"},{"start":6348.17,"end":6350.17,"text":"實施安樂死的可行性評估報告"},{"start":6350.17,"end":6352.17,"text":"因為你剛剛有提到這是"},{"start":6352.17,"end":6354.17,"text":"階段性的問題你現在反對"},{"start":6354.17,"end":6356.17,"text":"但是你知道未來台灣有一天會實行"},{"start":6356.17,"end":6358.17,"text":"所以呢請問一下"},{"start":6358.17,"end":6360.17,"text":"實行的可行性的評估報告"},{"start":6360.17,"end":6362.17,"text":"可否在一個月內提供"},{"start":6362.17,"end":6364.17,"text":"跟委員再重申"},{"start":6364.17,"end":6366.17,"text":"如果是長照的問題"},{"start":6366.17,"end":6368.17,"text":"不能夠用安樂死"},{"start":6368.17,"end":6370.17,"text":"來解決"},{"start":6370.17,"end":6372.17,"text":"我們應該去持續的"},{"start":6372.17,"end":6374.17,"text":"我們強化長照"},{"start":6374.17,"end":6376.17,"text":"這是完全不衝突的"},{"start":6376.17,"end":6378.17,"text":"這是完全不衝突的"},{"start":6378.17,"end":6380.17,"text":"就像安寧環合一條條例"},{"start":6380.17,"end":6382.17,"text":"跟安樂死兩個也是不衝突的"},{"start":6382.17,"end":6384.17,"text":"他其實就可以雙軌進行"},{"start":6384.17,"end":6386.17,"text":"那至於長照的問題"},{"start":6386.17,"end":6388.17,"text":"你如果把它健全化的話"},{"start":6388.17,"end":6390.17,"text":"我們樂見其成你不要讓有些人"},{"start":6390.17,"end":6392.17,"text":"覺得說我自己生命"},{"start":6392.17,"end":6394.17,"text":"我自己承受疾病的痛苦"},{"start":6394.17,"end":6396.17,"text":"然後備受折磨"},{"start":6396.17,"end":6398.17,"text":"然後國家又沒有安樂死制度給我"},{"start":6398.17,"end":6400.17,"text":"再加上長照又壓垮我"},{"start":6400.17,"end":6402.17,"text":"所以加速他們去接受安樂死"},{"start":6402.17,"end":6404.17,"text":"我們要"},{"start":6404.43,"end":6406.43,"text":"支持安樂死絕對不是因為長照的問題"},{"start":6406.43,"end":6408.43,"text":"我們是尊重病人的自主權"},{"start":6408.43,"end":6410.43,"text":"病人的自主權"},{"start":6410.43,"end":6412.43,"text":"他的落實他背後的思考是什麼"},{"start":6412.43,"end":6414.43,"text":"也許他真的想散忠"},{"start":6414.43,"end":6416.43,"text":"也許有沒有那麼一點點可能性"},{"start":6416.43,"end":6418.43,"text":"是政府長照的量能"},{"start":6418.43,"end":6420.43,"text":"不足壓垮他們成為"},{"start":6420.43,"end":6422.43,"text":"最後一根稻草"},{"start":6422.43,"end":6424.43,"text":"就是那一根稻草"},{"start":6424.43,"end":6426.43,"text":"也許壓垮他們的是鋸石"},{"start":6426.43,"end":6428.43,"text":"但是最後壓死他們的就是那一根稻草"},{"start":6428.43,"end":6430.43,"text":"好以上說明"},{"start":6430.43,"end":6432.43,"text":"那是不是可以請部長這一個月內提供給我們這個報告"},{"start":6432.43,"end":6434.43,"text":"我想施行安樂死的可行性的評估"},{"start":6434.43,"end":6436.43,"text":"這是要很嚴謹的"},{"start":6436.43,"end":6438.43,"text":"一個月的時間我覺得太過重塑"},{"start":6438.43,"end":6440.43,"text":"沒問題請你"},{"start":6440.43,"end":6442.43,"text":"可以給我們一個時間點"},{"start":6442.43,"end":6444.43,"text":"我都OK"},{"start":6444.43,"end":6446.43,"text":"我們還是要很嚴謹的去"},{"start":6446.43,"end":6448.43,"text":"因為那個"},{"start":6448.43,"end":6450.43,"text":"招尾已經站起來兩個月"},{"start":6450.43,"end":6452.43,"text":"我們再討論一下時間兩個月"},{"start":6452.43,"end":6454.43,"text":"給一個報告當然可以"},{"start":6454.43,"end":6456.43,"text":"只是他不會夠嚴謹"},{"start":6456.43,"end":6458.43,"text":"因為我們就要公投了嘛"},{"start":6458.43,"end":6460.43,"text":"你總不能公投之後才交付報告"},{"start":6460.43,"end":6462.43,"text":"我剛剛說過這個議題是一個很嚴謹的議題"},{"start":6462.43,"end":6464.43,"text":"嚴肅的議題"},{"start":6464.43,"end":6466.43,"text":"不應該用很專注的方式"},{"start":6466.43,"end":6468.43,"text":"一個月不夠"},{"start":6468.43,"end":6470.43,"text":"一年夠嗎"},{"start":6470.43,"end":6472.43,"text":"你總不能一年之後你還覺得"},{"start":6472.43,"end":6474.43,"text":"一年可以"},{"start":6474.43,"end":6476.43,"text":"那我們就只看到這個政府"},{"start":6476.43,"end":6478.43,"text":"用歸宿的速度"},{"start":6478.43,"end":6480.43,"text":"他一定要做嚴謹的評估"},{"start":6480.43,"end":6482.43,"text":"第一題呢一個月應該可以"},{"start":6482.43,"end":6484.43,"text":"第一題應該可以"},{"start":6484.43,"end":6486.43,"text":"可以可以"},{"start":6486.43,"end":6488.43,"text":"那我們就是政府以歸宿的方式再回應人民的需求"},{"start":6488.43,"end":6490.43,"text":"以上說明謝謝"},{"start":6490.43,"end":6492.43,"text":"這是一個嚴肅的生命議題"},{"start":6492.43,"end":6494.43,"text":"我們應該很嚴肅的態度來看待"},{"start":6495.49,"end":6497.49,"text":"好謝謝邱慧如委員發言"},{"start":6498.63,"end":6502.63,"text":"待會在王育敏委員詢答後休息10分鐘"},{"start":6502.63,"end":6504.63,"text":"接下來請王育敏委員發言"},{"start":6510.81,"end":6512.81,"text":"謝謝主席我們邀請時部長"},{"start":6518.46,"end":6520.46,"text":"好委員好"},{"start":6520.01,"end":6522.01,"text":"部長好"},{"start":6521.78,"end":6523.78,"text":"我問一個食安的原則"},{"start":6523.78,"end":6525.78,"text":"如果我們發現一個"},{"start":6525.78,"end":6527.78,"text":"有疑慮的商品"},{"start":6527.78,"end":6529.78,"text":"採取全面性的預防性"},{"start":6529.78,"end":6531.78,"text":"下架"},{"start":6531.78,"end":6533.78,"text":"會不會很快大家就沒有東西吃"},{"start":6534.22,"end":6536.22,"text":"我們要看這一個所謂的"},{"start":6538.13,"end":6540.13,"text":"我們剛剛講的違規的樣態是哪一種"},{"start":6540.13,"end":6542.13,"text":"以這次油品為例"},{"start":6542.13,"end":6544.13,"text":"以這次油品為例"},{"start":6544.13,"end":6546.13,"text":"你們自己去發明了一個"},{"start":6546.13,"end":6548.13,"text":"這個有疑慮的油品"},{"start":6548.13,"end":6550.13,"text":"含20%以下不用全面性下架"},{"start":6550.13,"end":6552.13,"text":"那我就問你"},{"start":6552.42,"end":6554.42,"text":"你這一個決策"},{"start":6554.42,"end":6556.42,"text":"引發非常大的疑慮"},{"start":6556.42,"end":6558.42,"text":"最後你們自己被迫轉彎"},{"start":6558.42,"end":6560.42,"text":"採取全面性的下架"},{"start":6560.42,"end":6562.42,"text":"那我現在就問你"},{"start":6563.58,"end":6565.58,"text":"陳時中這個政委"},{"start":6565.58,"end":6567.58,"text":"他說如果採取全面性的下架"},{"start":6567.58,"end":6569.58,"text":"很快大家就沒有東西吃"},{"start":6569.58,"end":6571.58,"text":"你認同嗎"},{"start":6571.58,"end":6573.58,"text":"那一天記者會你就坐在他旁邊"},{"start":6573.58,"end":6575.58,"text":"我想跟委員你報告"},{"start":6575.58,"end":6577.58,"text":"我們這個標準"},{"start":6577.58,"end":6579.58,"text":"這個本編體的標準"},{"start":6579.58,"end":6581.58,"text":"是採取的歐盟最高的標準"},{"start":6581.58,"end":6583.58,"text":"最嚴的標準"},{"start":6583.58,"end":6585.58,"text":"而以歐盟的下架"},{"start":6585.58,"end":6587.58,"text":"他也不是全部的食品都是下架"},{"start":6587.58,"end":6589.58,"text":"所以這一層已經採取全面性的下架"},{"start":6589.58,"end":6591.58,"text":"所以我們現在"},{"start":6591.58,"end":6593.58,"text":"最後所做的其實比歐盟的標準"},{"start":6593.58,"end":6595.58,"text":"還要嚴格到好幾倍"},{"start":6598.05,"end":6600.05,"text":"所以你的結論是什麼"},{"start":6600.05,"end":6602.05,"text":"針對油品本身才下架"},{"start":6602.05,"end":6604.05,"text":"我剛問你的問題你沒有回答"},{"start":6604.05,"end":6606.05,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":6606.05,"end":6608.05,"text":"有疑慮的商品"},{"start":6608.05,"end":6610.05,"text":"採取全面性的預防性下架"},{"start":6610.05,"end":6612.05,"text":"所以我們必須要更嚴謹的"},{"start":6612.05,"end":6614.05,"text":"去做討論"},{"start":6614.05,"end":6616.05,"text":"所以他是由專家討論出來"},{"start":6616.05,"end":6618.05,"text":"所以下次遇到類似的問題"},{"start":6618.05,"end":6620.05,"text":"你還是會分第一層第二層"},{"start":6620.05,"end":6622.05,"text":"這個都是要經過科學討論的"},{"start":6622.05,"end":6624.05,"text":"因為有不同的樣態"},{"start":6624.05,"end":6626.05,"text":"我就問你下次如果油品"},{"start":6626.05,"end":6628.05,"text":"一律的油品出來你一定要分"},{"start":6628.05,"end":6630.05,"text":"第一層第二層"},{"start":6630.05,"end":6632.05,"text":"我們的標準有很多種"},{"start":6632.05,"end":6634.05,"text":"經過這次的事件"},{"start":6634.05,"end":6636.05,"text":"你的標準不改嗎"},{"start":6636.05,"end":6638.05,"text":"你不知道全國民眾"},{"start":6638.05,"end":6640.05,"text":"對食安的標準就是很嚴格嗎"},{"start":6640.05,"end":6642.05,"text":"未來遇到這一種"},{"start":6642.05,"end":6644.05,"text":"有疑慮的商品"},{"start":6644.05,"end":6646.05,"text":"採取全面性的預防性下架"},{"start":6646.05,"end":6648.05,"text":"不該成為你整個"},{"start":6648.05,"end":6650.05,"text":"衛福部將來處理食安"},{"start":6650.05,"end":6652.05,"text":"的一致性的標準嗎"},{"start":6652.05,"end":6654.05,"text":"你還要回到第一層第二層嗎"},{"start":6654.05,"end":6656.05,"text":"我跟委員說明"},{"start":6656.05,"end":6658.05,"text":"如果是假權"},{"start":6658.05,"end":6660.05,"text":"這個催粉的事件是假權"},{"start":6660.05,"end":6662.05,"text":"假權是完全不得添加"},{"start":6662.05,"end":6664.05,"text":"所以他是零減出"},{"start":6664.05,"end":6666.05,"text":"所以任何通通都要下架"},{"start":6666.05,"end":6668.05,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":6668.05,"end":6670.05,"text":"本評比是安全標準"},{"start":6670.05,"end":6672.05,"text":"所以你下次你就分兩層喔"},{"start":6672.05,"end":6674.05,"text":"我們這一次的話是"},{"start":6674.05,"end":6676.05,"text":"經過專家的討論之後"},{"start":6676.05,"end":6678.05,"text":"是以20%"},{"start":6678.05,"end":6680.05,"text":"做切點"},{"start":6680.05,"end":6682.05,"text":"但是最後我們在行政上的考量"},{"start":6682.05,"end":6684.05,"text":"希望能夠儘速的下架"},{"start":6684.05,"end":6686.05,"text":"所以我們最後"},{"start":6686.05,"end":6688.05,"text":"採取的是全面性的下架"},{"start":6688.05,"end":6690.05,"text":"你回答我的問題"},{"start":6690.05,"end":6692.05,"text":"下一次如果在發現"},{"start":6692.05,"end":6694.05,"text":"大豆油裡面出現"},{"start":6694.05,"end":6696.05,"text":"批號裡面出現"},{"start":6696.05,"end":6698.05,"text":"超標的本評比"},{"start":6698.05,"end":6700.05,"text":"你是不是會像你"},{"start":6700.05,"end":6702.05,"text":"這次所犯的錯誤分"},{"start":6702.05,"end":6704.05,"text":"第一層第二層下架"},{"start":6704.05,"end":6706.05,"text":"還是會採取全面性"},{"start":6706.05,"end":6708.05,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":6708.05,"end":6710.05,"text":"作為衛福部部長"},{"start":6710.05,"end":6712.05,"text":"你要告訴全國的民眾"},{"start":6712.05,"end":6714.05,"text":"你未來處理有疑慮的"},{"start":6714.05,"end":6716.05,"text":"擁有的時候"},{"start":6716.05,"end":6718.05,"text":"我就問本評比這一題"},{"start":6718.05,"end":6720.05,"text":"未來如果出現有批號"},{"start":6720.05,"end":6722.05,"text":"出現超標"},{"start":6721.73,"end":6723.73,"text":"請問你要採取全面性的"},{"start":6723.73,"end":6725.73,"text":"預防性下架還是分層的"},{"start":6725.73,"end":6727.73,"text":"下架你就直接回答就好"},{"start":6727.73,"end":6729.73,"text":"如果是我現在已經做了的決定"},{"start":6729.73,"end":6731.73,"text":"是全面性下架當然就是"},{"start":6731.73,"end":6733.73,"text":"全面性下架好這樣就好"},{"start":6733.73,"end":6735.73,"text":"除非未來有新的討論"},{"start":6735.73,"end":6737.73,"text":"我覺得陳時中政委"},{"start":6737.73,"end":6739.73,"text":"他不應該說採取"},{"start":6739.73,"end":6741.73,"text":"預防性的全面性下架大家"},{"start":6741.73,"end":6743.73,"text":"就沒有東西吃我剛剛提過"},{"start":6743.73,"end":6745.73,"text":"那是不同的樣態他不是"},{"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7149.66,"end":7151.66,"text":"我們在這個案子"},{"start":7151.66,"end":7153.66,"text":"我們這個案子"},{"start":7153.66,"end":7155.66,"text":"這兩天就會做出決定"},{"start":7157.33,"end":7159.33,"text":"你們的決策效率也太慢了"},{"start":7159.33,"end":7161.33,"text":"因為昨天才通報永豐魚"},{"start":7161.33,"end":7163.33,"text":"我們今天在做調查"},{"start":7163.33,"end":7165.33,"text":"所以今天調查完我們就會做決定了"},{"start":7165.33,"end":7167.33,"text":"你們那個嘉義縣的油廠"},{"start":7167.33,"end":7169.33,"text":"你們要去看他的原料來源"},{"start":7169.33,"end":7171.33,"text":"到底是真本土"},{"start":7171.33,"end":7173.33,"text":"到底是真本土"},{"start":7173.33,"end":7175.33,"text":"有沒有混到是進口來的"},{"start":7175.33,"end":7177.33,"text":"苦茶子"},{"start":7177.33,"end":7179.33,"text":"那你這個整個"},{"start":7179.33,"end":7181.33,"text":"我覺得如果連這麼大的廠牌"},{"start":7181.33,"end":7183.33,"text":"他委託的製造商都出現這麼大的包"},{"start":7183.33,"end":7185.33,"text":"那其他的廠牌"},{"start":7185.33,"end":7187.33,"text":"的信任度在哪裡"},{"start":7187.33,"end":7189.33,"text":"我建議應該立刻啟動"},{"start":7189.33,"end":7191.33,"text":"這樣的一個專案"},{"start":7191.33,"end":7193.33,"text":"這一次既然從大豆沙拉油"},{"start":7193.33,"end":7195.33,"text":"整個我們看到這個問題"},{"start":7195.33,"end":7197.33,"text":"苦茶油也有這個問題"},{"start":7197.33,"end":7199.33,"text":"你所有原料的把關"},{"start":7199.36,"end":7201.36,"text":"你就是要痛定思痛"},{"start":7201.36,"end":7203.36,"text":"從源頭就開始"},{"start":7203.36,"end":7205.36,"text":"你的大豆油很多是進口進來的"},{"start":7205.36,"end":7207.36,"text":"巴西的大豆油"},{"start":7207.36,"end":7209.36,"text":"從原料就開始有問題"},{"start":7209.36,"end":7211.36,"text":"你這一次的苦茶油"},{"start":7211.36,"end":7213.36,"text":"我看也是從進口的原料"},{"start":7213.36,"end":7215.36,"text":"就有問題"},{"start":7215.36,"end":7217.36,"text":"所以你食藥署折五旁貸"},{"start":7217.36,"end":7219.36,"text":"衛福部折五旁貸"},{"start":7219.36,"end":7221.36,"text":"這都是邊境進口進來的原料"},{"start":7221.36,"end":7223.36,"text":"你就應該要好好查"},{"start":7223.36,"end":7225.36,"text":"看到問題是在哪裡"},{"start":7225.36,"end":7227.36,"text":"重新的把關改變"},{"start":7227.36,"end":7229.36,"text":"所以我提出四大訴求"},{"start":7229.36,"end":7231.36,"text":"第一個立刻啟動專案"},{"start":7231.36,"end":7233.36,"text":"因為已經有兩家大廠"},{"start":7233.36,"end":7235.36,"text":"都有問題了"},{"start":7235.36,"end":7237.36,"text":"其他也應該要抽驗"},{"start":7237.36,"end":7239.36,"text":"你即使發現才可以阻止"},{"start":7239.36,"end":7241.36,"text":"更多進到家庭裡面"},{"start":7241.36,"end":7243.36,"text":"更多消費者變成冤大頭"},{"start":7243.36,"end":7245.36,"text":"買很貴的但是還是一樣吃到本便品"},{"start":7245.36,"end":7247.36,"text":"第二個源頭管理"},{"start":7247.36,"end":7249.36,"text":"你現在所有進口的"},{"start":7249.36,"end":7251.36,"text":"這一些無論是黃豆"},{"start":7251.36,"end":7253.36,"text":"或者是苦茶油紙"},{"start":7253.36,"end":7255.36,"text":"這種做成油品的原料"},{"start":7255.36,"end":7257.36,"text":"你一定要加驗把關"},{"start":7257.36,"end":7259.36,"text":"然後要強制揭露原產地"},{"start":7259.36,"end":7261.36,"text":"現在很多消費者覺得"},{"start":7261.36,"end":7263.36,"text":"冤大頭是"},{"start":7263.36,"end":7265.36,"text":"他說這個是很好的"},{"start":7265.36,"end":7267.36,"text":"是有機的"},{"start":7267.36,"end":7269.36,"text":"然後做成說是台灣產的"},{"start":7269.36,"end":7271.36,"text":"結果原料是來自哪裡"},{"start":7271.36,"end":7273.36,"text":"可能就是來自大陸"},{"start":7272.73,"end":7274.73,"text":"然後大家以為說買到"},{"start":7274.73,"end":7276.73,"text":"台灣本土產的很好的苦茶油"},{"start":7276.73,"end":7278.73,"text":"不是啊"},{"start":7278.73,"end":7280.73,"text":"那個年進的有機苦茶油就是這樣子"},{"start":7280.73,"end":7282.73,"text":"大家覺得看起來很好"},{"start":7282.73,"end":7284.73,"text":"台灣產的結果原料通通都是"},{"start":7284.73,"end":7286.73,"text":"對岸的現在還出問題"},{"start":7287.2,"end":7289.2,"text":"這個沒有揭露原料的原產地"},{"start":7289.2,"end":7291.2,"text":"也是一個很大的敗壁"},{"start":7291.2,"end":7293.2,"text":"一定要揭露"},{"start":7293.2,"end":7295.2,"text":"另外不食重罰"},{"start":7295.2,"end":7297.2,"text":"如果有假有機假在地假小農"},{"start":7298.32,"end":7300.32,"text":"通通都應該要重罰"},{"start":7300.32,"end":7302.32,"text":"這個叫什麼?這是詐欺啊"},{"start":7302.32,"end":7304.32,"text":"這是完全欺騙消費者啊"},{"start":7304.86,"end":7306.86,"text":"會吃苦茶油願意花高價的"},{"start":7306.86,"end":7308.86,"text":"那些人越重視自己健康"},{"start":7308.86,"end":7310.86,"text":"結果他買到了"},{"start":7310.86,"end":7312.86,"text":"是假貨"},{"start":7312.86,"end":7314.86,"text":"買到了是本便宜超標"},{"start":7315.46,"end":7317.46,"text":"他會覺得很冤枉啊"},{"start":7317.46,"end":7319.46,"text":"所以這件事情食安的整頓"},{"start":7319.46,"end":7321.46,"text":"我覺得這個部長你擇我旁待"},{"start":7321.46,"end":7323.46,"text":"這個是真正在做事情啊"},{"start":7323.46,"end":7325.46,"text":"你要把這件事情做好啊"},{"start":7325.46,"end":7327.46,"text":"要不然我就問部長你最近吃什麼油"},{"start":7327.46,"end":7329.46,"text":"你家裡都吃什麼油"},{"start":7329.92,"end":7331.92,"text":"就這樣"},{"start":7331.31,"end":7335.31,"text":"多元食品這個是健康的概念"},{"start":7335.31,"end":7337.31,"text":"但是多元我們現在大豆油有問題啊"},{"start":7337.31,"end":7339.31,"text":"苦茶油也有問題啊"},{"start":7339.31,"end":7341.31,"text":"我跟五元說明"},{"start":7341.31,"end":7343.31,"text":"對於這個嚴懲不罰的廠商"},{"start":7343.31,"end":7345.31,"text":"我們一定是這個原則在處理"},{"start":7345.31,"end":7347.31,"text":"那麼從這個大豆的事件"},{"start":7347.31,"end":7349.31,"text":"我們也進行其他的業者"},{"start":7349.31,"end":7351.31,"text":"剛剛我們昨天才發布"},{"start":7351.31,"end":7353.31,"text":"有啊你大豆整個都去抽"},{"start":7353.31,"end":7355.31,"text":"很好"},{"start":7355.31,"end":7357.31,"text":"你整個完了"},{"start":7357.31,"end":7359.31,"text":"現在是苦茶有問題"},{"start":7359.31,"end":7361.31,"text":"我們都把它抽驗了"},{"start":7361.31,"end":7363.31,"text":"所以都出來從他的樣本"},{"start":7363.31,"end":7365.31,"text":"到他的成品我們都驗了"},{"start":7365.31,"end":7367.31,"text":"所以這個大概來確保這個"},{"start":7367.31,"end":7369.31,"text":"在市面上的現在的大豆沙拉油"},{"start":7369.31,"end":7371.31,"text":"都是安全的"},{"start":7371.31,"end":7373.31,"text":"都符合標準的這個我們已經做了"},{"start":7373.31,"end":7375.31,"text":"至於這個苦茶油這個事件"},{"start":7375.31,"end":7377.31,"text":"就如"},{"start":7377.31,"end":7379.31,"text":"我想當然他的來"},{"start":7379.31,"end":7381.31,"text":"原料是不一樣啦"},{"start":7381.31,"end":7383.31,"text":"這苦茶籽跟那個大豆是不一樣"},{"start":7383.31,"end":7385.31,"text":"不過從我們這一次的這個"},{"start":7385.31,"end":7387.31,"text":"中聯的調查可以看得清楚"},{"start":7387.31,"end":7389.31,"text":"是在原料的處理過程"},{"start":7389.31,"end":7391.31,"text":"跟製程上沒有對應"},{"start":7391.31,"end":7393.31,"text":"風險等級的調整"},{"start":7393.31,"end":7395.31,"text":"產生這個超標的情形"},{"start":7395.31,"end":7397.31,"text":"所以他不是在"},{"start":7397.31,"end":7399.31,"text":"外加進來的東西"},{"start":7399.31,"end":7401.31,"text":"他不是外加進來是在製程當中"},{"start":7401.31,"end":7403.31,"text":"沒有去處理掉"},{"start":7403.31,"end":7405.31,"text":"他的這個風險"},{"start":7405.31,"end":7407.31,"text":"因此這個苦茶籽我們也是會按照"},{"start":7407.31,"end":7409.31,"text":"這樣去瞭解到底他風險"},{"start":7409.31,"end":7411.31,"text":"出在哪裡才能夠"},{"start":7412.44,"end":7414.44,"text":"抽茶抽驗這個都是下游的做法"},{"start":7414.44,"end":7416.44,"text":"那我們希望從源頭上"},{"start":7416.44,"end":7418.44,"text":"去瞭解清楚"},{"start":7418.44,"end":7420.44,"text":"然後讓他未來的產生"},{"start":7420.44,"end":7422.44,"text":"因為畢竟抽驗有限"},{"start":7422.44,"end":7424.44,"text":"那要從整個上游的"},{"start":7424.44,"end":7426.44,"text":"製程上讓他穩定"},{"start":7426.44,"end":7428.44,"text":"產生具品質的"},{"start":7428.44,"end":7430.44,"text":"這個油品這個才是"},{"start":7430.44,"end":7432.44,"text":"我們最終的目標"},{"start":7432.44,"end":7434.44,"text":"我們會來做那今天再去調查清楚"},{"start":7434.44,"end":7436.44,"text":"瞭解他的問題之後"},{"start":7436.44,"end":7438.44,"text":"那我們再來規劃"},{"start":7438.44,"end":7440.44,"text":"接下來的這些專案做法"},{"start":7440.44,"end":7442.44,"text":"你不能就是速度太緩慢"},{"start":7442.44,"end":7444.44,"text":"然後讓消費者持續去購買"},{"start":7444.44,"end":7446.44,"text":"他可能還有別家品牌"},{"start":7446.44,"end":7448.44,"text":"說不定也是超標"},{"start":7448.44,"end":7450.44,"text":"然後他繼續喝"},{"start":7450.44,"end":7452.44,"text":"他想說爆出來現在是連禁跟永恆"},{"start":7452.44,"end":7454.44,"text":"我們昨天收到通報"},{"start":7454.44,"end":7456.44,"text":"今天就已經進行聯合的稽查了"},{"start":7456.44,"end":7458.44,"text":"速度要快"},{"start":7458.44,"end":7460.44,"text":"好不好"},{"start":7460.44,"end":7462.44,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7462.44,"end":7464.44,"text":"謝謝王敏委員發言"},{"start":7464.44,"end":7466.44,"text":"謝謝部長達詢"},{"start":7466.44,"end":7468.44,"text":"現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7491.97,"end":7492.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7504.34,"end":7506.34,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7520.05,"end":7522.05,"text":"因為是昨天才接獲的通報"},{"start":7522.05,"end":7524.05,"text":"今天早上去查查"},{"start":7524.05,"end":7526.05,"text":"所以這個我們今天下午的通報"},{"start":7526.05,"end":7528.05,"text":"這個比較好看"},{"start":7528.05,"end":7530.05,"text":"看他的複雜情形"},{"start":7530.05,"end":7532.05,"text":"這個都是"},{"start":7532.05,"end":7534.05,"text":"跟地方"},{"start":7534.05,"end":7536.05,"text":"跟嘉義談好"},{"start":7536.05,"end":7538.05,"text":"對"},{"start":7538.05,"end":7540.05,"text":"對"},{"start":7540.05,"end":7542.05,"text":"他的場在嘉義"},{"start":7542.05,"end":7544.05,"text":"通報的是在台北"},{"start":7544.05,"end":7546.05,"text":"永恆也是在國中"},{"start":7546.05,"end":7548.05,"text":"當然第一步當然先下架"},{"start":7548.05,"end":7550.05,"text":"做法都是這樣"},{"start":7550.05,"end":7552.05,"text":"先下架"},{"start":7552.05,"end":7554.05,"text":"先把他這個風險控管住"},{"start":7554.05,"end":7556.05,"text":"然後再去調查清楚"},{"start":7556.05,"end":7558.05,"text":"然後再來看看"},{"start":7558.05,"end":7560.05,"text":"接下來的作用"},{"start":7560.05,"end":7562.05,"text":"所以兩款的品牌"},{"start":7562.05,"end":7564.05,"text":"都是人家的做法"},{"start":7564.05,"end":7566.05,"text":"這個要調查完才知道"},{"start":7566.05,"end":7568.05,"text":"因為現在只是通報出來"},{"start":7568.05,"end":7570.05,"text":"他超標"},{"start":7570.05,"end":7572.05,"text":"超標就先下架"},{"start":7572.05,"end":7574.05,"text":"跟上一次的做法其實是"},{"start":7574.05,"end":7576.05,"text":"是一樣"},{"start":7576.05,"end":7578.05,"text":"對"},{"start":7578.05,"end":7580.05,"text":"我們有調查的結果"},{"start":7580.05,"end":7582.05,"text":"出來"},{"start":7582.05,"end":7584.05,"text":"透明的"},{"start":7584.05,"end":7586.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7586.05,"end":7588.05,"text":"看複雜程度"},{"start":7588.05,"end":7590.05,"text":"因為上次那個"},{"start":7590.05,"end":7592.05,"text":"比較簡單"},{"start":7592.05,"end":7594.05,"text":"因為這樣比較大"},{"start":7594.05,"end":7596.05,"text":"都是小型的製造"},{"start":7596.05,"end":7598.05,"text":"他的人氣都會進來"},{"start":7598.05,"end":7600.05,"text":"所以說"},{"start":7600.05,"end":7602.05,"text":"就是明顯的"},{"start":7602.05,"end":7604.05,"text":"對"},{"start":7604.05,"end":7606.05,"text":"這個的話"},{"start":7606.05,"end":7608.05,"text":"就要再看清楚"},{"start":7608.05,"end":7610.05,"text":"要去調查原料原理"},{"start":7610.05,"end":7612.05,"text":"本地的"},{"start":7612.05,"end":7614.05,"text":"還是哪裡來"},{"start":7614.93,"end":7616.93,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7650.01,"end":7652.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7652.01,"end":7654.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7654.01,"end":7656.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7656.01,"end":7658.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7658.01,"end":7660.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7660.01,"end":7662.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7662.01,"end":7664.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7664.01,"end":7666.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7666.01,"end":7668.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7668.01,"end":7670.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7670.01,"end":7672.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7672.01,"end":7674.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7674.01,"end":7676.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7676.01,"end":7678.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7687.18,"end":7689.18,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7689.6,"end":7691.6,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7692.23,"end":7694.23,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7859.44,"end":7861.44,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7861.44,"end":7863.44,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7863.44,"end":7865.44,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7865.44,"end":7867.44,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7992.27,"end":7994.27,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8015.22,"end":8017.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8018.07,"end":8020.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8020.07,"end":8022.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8022.07,"end":8024.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8024.07,"end":8026.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8026.07,"end":8028.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8028.07,"end":8030.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8030.07,"end":8032.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8032.07,"end":8034.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8034.07,"end":8036.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8036.07,"end":8038.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8038.07,"end":8040.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8040.07,"end":8042.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8042.07,"end":8044.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8044.07,"end":8046.07,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8026.22,"end":8028.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8028.22,"end":8030.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8030.22,"end":8032.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8032.22,"end":8034.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8034.22,"end":8036.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8036.22,"end":8038.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8038.22,"end":8040.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8040.22,"end":8042.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8042.22,"end":8044.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8044.22,"end":8046.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8046.22,"end":8048.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8048.22,"end":8050.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8050.22,"end":8052.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8052.22,"end":8054.22,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8072.05,"end":8074.05,"text":"現在繼續開會"},{"start":8074.05,"end":8076.05,"text":"現在我們請邱正元發言"},{"start":8081.67,"end":8083.67,"text":"主席好,我們先請石部長"},{"start":8083.67,"end":8085.67,"text":"好,有請石部長"},{"start":8087.81,"end":8089.81,"text":"石部長好,我們先看一下影片"},{"start":8097.45,"end":8099.45,"text":"我關心這次摯愛唷"},{"start":8099.76,"end":8101.76,"text":"我叫本篇批"},{"start":8101.76,"end":8103.76,"text":"我跟香煙,熟免"},{"start":8103.76,"end":8105.76,"text":"同一集,都是一集摯愛"},{"start":8105.76,"end":8107.76,"text":"確定,使人摯愛"},{"start":8107.76,"end":8109.76,"text":"肺癌,胃癌,腸癌"},{"start":8109.76,"end":8111.76,"text":"皮膚癌,都是我的作品"},{"start":8112.87,"end":8114.87,"text":"我不讓你痛,那太粗糙了"},{"start":8114.87,"end":8116.87,"text":"我潛進你的細胞"},{"start":8116.87,"end":8118.87,"text":"專門拆掉你身上那道"},{"start":8118.87,"end":8120.87,"text":"狂癌的煞車"},{"start":8120.87,"end":8122.87,"text":"然後,讓錯誤開始複製"},{"start":8122.87,"end":8124.87,"text":"從你吃下去那天,就開始"},{"start":8124.87,"end":8126.87,"text":"直到有一天,崩潰回程"},{"start":8126.87,"end":8128.87,"text":"這一次,我被叫獨有"},{"start":8128.87,"end":8130.87,"text":"超過安全標準4倍"},{"start":8130.87,"end":8132.87,"text":"CP不合格"},{"start":8132.87,"end":8134.87,"text":"八千多公噸,追回來的"},{"start":8134.87,"end":8136.87,"text":"不到三千"},{"start":8136.87,"end":8138.87,"text":"剩下的流口,去了"},{"start":8138.87,"end":8140.87,"text":"一千三百多個店家"},{"start":8140.87,"end":8142.87,"text":"你的便當店,你的超商"},{"start":8142.87,"end":8144.87,"text":"你家小孩的餐廳"},{"start":8144.87,"end":8146.87,"text":"還有你女孩子的營養餐廳"},{"start":8146.87,"end":8148.87,"text":"你以為,把我吃下去"},{"start":8148.87,"end":8150.87,"text":"就結束了"},{"start":8150.87,"end":8152.87,"text":"當你把我倒進鍋裡,燒到冒煙"},{"start":8152.87,"end":8154.87,"text":"我會變成,你呼吸的雲氣"},{"start":8154.87,"end":8156.87,"text":"這一次,我直接進你的肺"},{"start":8156.87,"end":8158.87,"text":"全世界最怕的,就是我會製造肺"},{"start":8158.87,"end":8160.87,"text":"站在鍋前的人,最有危險"},{"start":8160.87,"end":8162.87,"text":"謝謝制度,什麼都沒改"},{"start":8162.87,"end":8164.87,"text":"謝謝那些人"},{"start":8164.87,"end":8166.87,"text":"把責任,推得乾乾淨淨"},{"start":8166.87,"end":8168.87,"text":"所以我還在"},{"start":8168.87,"end":8170.87,"text":"所以我還在,你的餐桌上"},{"start":8170.87,"end":8172.87,"text":"哎喲不是我逼你吃你跟我搭車幹嘛"},{"start":8172.87,"end":8174.87,"text":"你很不吃"},{"start":8175.9,"end":8177.9,"text":"可是我們,從來沒有吃"},{"start":8178.8,"end":8180.8,"text":"好部長,這支影片叫"},{"start":8180.8,"end":8182.8,"text":"由不得你,這個短片很紅"},{"start":8182.8,"end":8184.8,"text":"部長有看過嗎"},{"start":8184.41,"end":8186.41,"text":"有沒有看過"},{"start":8186.09,"end":8188.09,"text":"我沒有看到,但是媒體有報導"},{"start":8188.09,"end":8190.09,"text":"你剛剛,現在你看了嘛"},{"start":8190.09,"end":8192.09,"text":"對不對,那這支短片的內容"},{"start":8192.09,"end":8194.09,"text":"跟實際有不符的部分嗎"},{"start":8194.09,"end":8196.09,"text":"最大的問題"},{"start":8196.09,"end":8198.09,"text":"我想,這個一聽的時候"},{"start":8198.09,"end":8200.09,"text":"就還以為是總統"},{"start":8200.09,"end":8202.09,"text":"所以這個是,我們不應該"},{"start":8202.09,"end":8204.09,"text":"用這種詭的方式"},{"start":8204.09,"end":8206.09,"text":"我們就講內容就好了"},{"start":8206.09,"end":8208.09,"text":"我現在知道的是,他的內容有沒有錯誤"},{"start":8210.02,"end":8212.02,"text":"他講的事情有沒有錯"},{"start":8212.02,"end":8214.02,"text":"我們在法律上,都要先講"},{"start":8214.02,"end":8216.02,"text":"程序的正義,才有實質的正義"},{"start":8216.02,"end":8218.02,"text":"如果這個程序"},{"start":8218.02,"end":8220.02,"text":"完全是錯誤的,就該被譴責"},{"start":8220.02,"end":8222.02,"text":"而不論內容的對錯"},{"start":8222.02,"end":8224.02,"text":"所以先講"},{"start":8224.02,"end":8226.02,"text":"程序正義,這個的製造"},{"start":8226.02,"end":8228.02,"text":"的程序,完全就是違法"},{"start":8228.02,"end":8230.02,"text":"那麼不應該,要被"},{"start":8230.02,"end":8232.02,"text":"譴責的,所以根本不值得"},{"start":8232.02,"end":8234.02,"text":"討論他的內容"},{"start":8234.02,"end":8236.02,"text":"你剛剛聽到的是,我們賴清德總統"},{"start":8236.02,"end":8238.02,"text":"的聲音"},{"start":8238.02,"end":8240.02,"text":"所以你把賴清德總統當作本篇"},{"start":8240.02,"end":8242.02,"text":"你是把賴清德總統當作本篇比的"},{"start":8242.02,"end":8244.02,"text":"的聲音"},{"start":8244.02,"end":8246.02,"text":"所以你還是覺得"},{"start":8246.02,"end":8248.02,"text":"你會以為"},{"start":8248.02,"end":8250.02,"text":"賴清德總統吃了陳時座沙包"},{"start":8250.02,"end":8252.02,"text":"在替自己宣傳嗎"},{"start":8252.02,"end":8254.02,"text":"我還是要強調,沒有程序的正義"},{"start":8254.02,"end":8256.02,"text":"就沒有內容"},{"start":8256.02,"end":8258.02,"text":"科學的正義,還有行政會的正義"},{"start":8258.02,"end":8260.02,"text":"猶豫跟轉弱"},{"start":8260.02,"end":8262.02,"text":"一五一十的,擺在社會大眾前面"},{"start":8262.02,"end":8264.02,"text":"非常惡劣"},{"start":8264.02,"end":8266.02,"text":"自來由你們知道"},{"start":8266.02,"end":8268.02,"text":"到現在快滿月了"},{"start":8268.02,"end":8270.02,"text":"你們現在留給人民很多問號"},{"start":8270.02,"end":8272.02,"text":"人民如果沒有能力"},{"start":8272.02,"end":8274.02,"text":"在辨識餐桌上的由來自哪一批"},{"start":8274.02,"end":8276.02,"text":"也沒能力"},{"start":8276.02,"end":8278.02,"text":"自行檢測,如果政府不及時"},{"start":8278.02,"end":8280.02,"text":"公開資訊,人民就"},{"start":8280.02,"end":8282.02,"text":"沒有知情的權利"},{"start":8282.02,"end":8284.02,"text":"完全都沒有辦法選擇"},{"start":8284.02,"end":8286.02,"text":"這一切,確實由不得你"},{"start":8286.02,"end":8288.02,"text":"對不對,也由不得民進黨"},{"start":8288.02,"end":8290.02,"text":"政府閃躲,不是嗎"},{"start":8290.02,"end":8292.02,"text":"跟委員說明,經過"},{"start":8292.02,"end":8294.02,"text":"我們跟地方衛生局"},{"start":8294.02,"end":8296.02,"text":"大家共同的協力"},{"start":8296.02,"end":8298.02,"text":"現在在商場上面"},{"start":8298.02,"end":8300.02,"text":"在架上的有品都是安全的"},{"start":8300.02,"end":8302.02,"text":"所以請大家"},{"start":8302.02,"end":8304.02,"text":"陳時中政委,在7月27號的"},{"start":8304.02,"end":8306.02,"text":"記者會上說,如果遇到"},{"start":8306.02,"end":8308.02,"text":"食安的狀況,全部都下架的話"},{"start":8308.02,"end":8310.02,"text":"那很快大家都會沒有東西吃"},{"start":8310.02,"end":8312.02,"text":"那民進黨執政11年了"},{"start":8312.02,"end":8314.02,"text":"現在人民只能選擇"},{"start":8314.02,"end":8316.02,"text":"跟餓死跟吐死之間"},{"start":8316.02,"end":8318.02,"text":"來做選擇,是這樣嗎"},{"start":8317.9,"end":8319.9,"text":"我們剛剛提到"},{"start":8319.9,"end":8321.9,"text":"就是說這些東西你必須"},{"start":8321.9,"end":8323.9,"text":"放心現在在架上的"},{"start":8323.9,"end":8325.9,"text":"有品都是安全的,沒有問題"},{"start":8325.9,"end":8327.9,"text":"所以你們當初說出來的話"},{"start":8327.9,"end":8329.9,"text":"陳時中講的這句話"},{"start":8329.9,"end":8331.9,"text":"是當初你們訂定"},{"start":8331.9,"end":8333.9,"text":"20%標準的依據嗎"},{"start":8333.9,"end":8335.9,"text":"我想,日前陳政委"},{"start":8335.9,"end":8337.9,"text":"在記者會上講的"},{"start":8337.9,"end":8339.9,"text":"是被斷章取義的"},{"start":8339.9,"end":8341.9,"text":"那個是對記者的詢問"},{"start":8341.9,"end":8343.9,"text":"他去描述整個在安全標準"},{"start":8343.9,"end":8345.9,"text":"的制定上,跟他的"},{"start":8345.9,"end":8347.9,"text":"管理的措施"},{"start":8347.9,"end":8349.9,"text":"7月22號"},{"start":8349.9,"end":8351.9,"text":"我們本委員會通過臨時提案"},{"start":8351.9,"end":8353.9,"text":"要求致癌藥,為全面查明"},{"start":8353.9,"end":8355.9,"text":"流向與真相前"},{"start":8355.9,"end":8357.9,"text":"不得讓這些有品重新上架"},{"start":8357.9,"end":8359.9,"text":"那你們現在有停止"},{"start":8359.9,"end":8361.9,"text":"恢復上架嗎"},{"start":8361.53,"end":8363.53,"text":"我們問題的有品都不可以上架"},{"start":8363.53,"end":8365.53,"text":"包含他的相關的加工資料"},{"start":8365.53,"end":8367.53,"text":"所以你們都檢查了就對了"},{"start":8367.53,"end":8369.53,"text":"所以那7P我們都公告了"},{"start":8369.53,"end":8371.53,"text":"上架原則都是檢驗的過"},{"start":8371.53,"end":8373.53,"text":"所以問題都沒有出問題"},{"start":8373.53,"end":8375.53,"text":"對,我們已經都檢驗完了"},{"start":8375.53,"end":8377.53,"text":"那決議的條件是"},{"start":8377.53,"end":8379.53,"text":"全面清查,不是充電合格"},{"start":8379.53,"end":8381.53,"text":"我們這一次是"},{"start":8381.53,"end":8383.53,"text":"分原分項"},{"start":8383.53,"end":8385.53,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":8385.53,"end":8387.53,"text":"逐批的確認之後"},{"start":8387.53,"end":8389.53,"text":"還上下游去比對之後"},{"start":8389.53,"end":8391.53,"text":"才確認這個19P是OK的"},{"start":8391.53,"end":8393.53,"text":"但是你們到目前為止"},{"start":8393.53,"end":8395.53,"text":"只是說明中聯被查出的有問題"},{"start":8395.53,"end":8397.53,"text":"但是沒有辦法證明其他場上沒有問題"},{"start":8398.84,"end":8400.84,"text":"您說的是哪些廠商"},{"start":8400.84,"end":8402.84,"text":"其他的"},{"start":8402.84,"end":8404.84,"text":"我們這一次是針對中聯的"},{"start":8404.84,"end":8406.84,"text":"有品"},{"start":8406.84,"end":8408.84,"text":"那另外三家包含這個大統一"},{"start":8408.84,"end":8410.84,"text":"還有這個台糖跟常輝"},{"start":8410.84,"end":8412.84,"text":"我們也去他的廠做抽驗"},{"start":8412.84,"end":8414.84,"text":"包含從他的"},{"start":8414.84,"end":8416.84,"text":"這個原料的抽驗"},{"start":8416.84,"end":8418.84,"text":"還有這個出油的抽驗"},{"start":8418.84,"end":8420.84,"text":"今年4到6月"},{"start":8420.84,"end":8422.84,"text":"巴西大豆原料的"},{"start":8422.84,"end":8424.84,"text":"跟產出的有品查明了嗎"},{"start":8424.84,"end":8426.84,"text":"有查到嗎"},{"start":8426.12,"end":8428.12,"text":"原料的部分"},{"start":8428.12,"end":8430.12,"text":"跟有品,製成成品也是"},{"start":8430.12,"end":8432.12,"text":"對,這一個"},{"start":8432.12,"end":8434.12,"text":"廠我們剛剛也調查過了"},{"start":8434.12,"end":8436.12,"text":"昨天我們也把這個調查"},{"start":8436.12,"end":8438.12,"text":"報告已經上網公佈了"},{"start":8438.12,"end":8440.12,"text":"最主要他的某一個P"},{"start":8440.12,"end":8442.12,"text":"傳,那個傳P的"},{"start":8442.12,"end":8444.12,"text":"這個熱損利率比較"},{"start":8444.12,"end":8446.12,"text":"高,然後在後面他"},{"start":8446.12,"end":8448.12,"text":"風險帶進來之後沒有"},{"start":8448.12,"end":8450.12,"text":"經過製程的調整造成"},{"start":8450.12,"end":8452.12,"text":"今天4到6月"},{"start":8452.12,"end":8454.12,"text":"中聯就出了29E"},{"start":8454.12,"end":8456.12,"text":"這個"},{"start":8456.12,"end":8458.12,"text":"只在他的廠"},{"start":8458.12,"end":8460.12,"text":"那中聯放寬熱損"},{"start":8460.12,"end":8462.12,"text":"率是從去年6月4號開始的"},{"start":8462.12,"end":8464.12,"text":"從去年6月4號到"},{"start":8464.12,"end":8466.12,"text":"今年3月31號將近10個月"},{"start":8466.12,"end":8468.12,"text":"那這一段中間"},{"start":8468.12,"end":8470.12,"text":"中聯出了幾批貨,多少公噸"},{"start":8471.31,"end":8473.31,"text":"下游去哪裡"},{"start":8472.6,"end":8474.6,"text":"你這邊有數據嗎"},{"start":8474.6,"end":8476.6,"text":"有,我們都有了解"},{"start":8476.6,"end":8478.6,"text":"那跟我要說明的"},{"start":8478.6,"end":8480.6,"text":"那麼這一個"},{"start":8480.6,"end":8482.6,"text":"比較高的這個P次"},{"start":8482.6,"end":8484.6,"text":"這個P次的"},{"start":8484.6,"end":8486.6,"text":"傳櫃只在他這個廠"},{"start":8486.6,"end":8488.6,"text":"他沒有到其他的地方"},{"start":8488.6,"end":8490.6,"text":"他的製程上其實只要調整"},{"start":8490.6,"end":8492.6,"text":"就是可以符合標準"},{"start":8492.6,"end":8494.6,"text":"所以不是絕對的"},{"start":8494.6,"end":8496.6,"text":"巴西豆就不能用"},{"start":8496.6,"end":8498.6,"text":"也不是絕對的熱損利率"},{"start":8498.6,"end":8500.6,"text":"多少就不能用"},{"start":8500.6,"end":8502.6,"text":"他要按照他的風險管理"},{"start":8502.6,"end":8504.6,"text":"不同的品質"},{"start":8504.6,"end":8506.6,"text":"那麼要經過後面的"},{"start":8506.6,"end":8508.6,"text":"製程去調整"},{"start":8508.6,"end":8510.6,"text":"10個月的你都查了嗎"},{"start":8510.6,"end":8512.6,"text":"待會你出去把資料給我"},{"start":8512.6,"end":8514.6,"text":"那我再問你"},{"start":8514.6,"end":8516.6,"text":"中央宣布要原本下架的"},{"start":8516.6,"end":8518.6,"text":"要重新上架"},{"start":8518.6,"end":8520.6,"text":"但是台北台中高雄"},{"start":8520.6,"end":8522.6,"text":"已經明確"},{"start":8522.23,"end":8524.23,"text":"表明沒有完全確認安全之前"},{"start":8524.23,"end":8526.23,"text":"是不會跟進的"},{"start":8526.23,"end":8528.23,"text":"所以現在有哪些縣市"},{"start":8528.23,"end":8530.23,"text":"還是哪些產品已經上架"},{"start":8530.23,"end":8532.23,"text":"跟委員說明我們是"},{"start":8532.23,"end":8534.23,"text":"根據這個食安法52條"},{"start":8534.23,"end":8536.23,"text":"的規定,經過我們"},{"start":8536.23,"end":8538.23,"text":"檢驗完成之後"},{"start":8538.23,"end":8540.23,"text":"因為這個前面是"},{"start":8540.23,"end":8542.23,"text":"預防性下架,並不是他"},{"start":8542.23,"end":8544.23,"text":"檢出有問題,因為我們當時"},{"start":8544.23,"end":8546.23,"text":"這個認為上下游"},{"start":8546.23,"end":8548.23,"text":"的資料沒有辦法完全"},{"start":8548.23,"end":8550.23,"text":"確認的情形之下"},{"start":8550.23,"end":8552.23,"text":"所以現在我們在確認"},{"start":8552.23,"end":8554.23,"text":"這個預防性的4到6月"},{"start":8554.23,"end":8556.23,"text":"預防性下架,這是超前部署"},{"start":8556.23,"end":8558.23,"text":"讓我們有認可"},{"start":8558.23,"end":8560.23,"text":"我現在講的是"},{"start":8560.23,"end":8562.23,"text":"這些縣市說不要"},{"start":8562.23,"end":8564.23,"text":"他不配合的,你到底"},{"start":8563.6,"end":8565.6,"text":"現在做得怎麼樣,他們有沒有完全接受"},{"start":8565.6,"end":8567.6,"text":"當然就我們來講"},{"start":8567.6,"end":8569.6,"text":"這個19P已經是確認"},{"start":8569.6,"end":8571.6,"text":"安全,所以他們"},{"start":8571.6,"end":8573.6,"text":"這些縣市哪些產品上架"},{"start":8573.6,"end":8575.6,"text":"你只要回答我這個就好"},{"start":8575.6,"end":8577.6,"text":"有他特別的考量的話,我們就尊重"},{"start":8577.6,"end":8579.6,"text":"不講,如果到今天"},{"start":8579.6,"end":8581.6,"text":"沒有任何地方政府願意跟進"},{"start":8581.6,"end":8583.6,"text":"也沒有業者願意"},{"start":8583.6,"end":8585.6,"text":"配合出貨上架"},{"start":8585.6,"end":8587.6,"text":"那就表示地方政府"},{"start":8587.6,"end":8589.6,"text":"業者跟消費者都認為"},{"start":8589.6,"end":8591.6,"text":"這個疑慮還沒排除嘛,為什麼"},{"start":8591.6,"end":8593.6,"text":"只有中央這麼急呢,你們急什麼"},{"start":8593.6,"end":8595.6,"text":"我們必須依法行政"},{"start":8595.6,"end":8597.6,"text":"所以我們也調查清楚了"},{"start":8597.6,"end":8599.6,"text":"一個重大的時代檢驗清楚了"},{"start":8599.6,"end":8601.6,"text":"走到年產品有沒有真的"},{"start":8601.6,"end":8603.6,"text":"要重新上架都無法決定"},{"start":8603.6,"end":8605.6,"text":"也沒有辦法確定,這已經不是"},{"start":8605.6,"end":8607.6,"text":"科學問題了啦,而是行政性能"},{"start":8607.6,"end":8609.6,"text":"這個19P已經確認了"},{"start":8609.6,"end":8611.6,"text":"那我再問"},{"start":8611.6,"end":8613.6,"text":"你們7月27號公布的調查內容"},{"start":8613.6,"end":8615.6,"text":"有一些專家有不同的見解"},{"start":8615.6,"end":8617.6,"text":"那我今天就用你們的"},{"start":8617.6,"end":8619.6,"text":"報告來請教你們,你們報告中"},{"start":8619.6,"end":8621.6,"text":"把中年發生的本篇比"},{"start":8621.6,"end":8623.6,"text":"超標的原因指向是"},{"start":8623.6,"end":8625.6,"text":"原料異常跟製程條件嘛,對不對"},{"start":8626.63,"end":8628.63,"text":"原料的部分你們認為是巴西豆"},{"start":8628.63,"end":8630.63,"text":"大豆這個熱水率的問題嗎"},{"start":8630.63,"end":8632.63,"text":"製程的問題是不是包括"},{"start":8632.63,"end":8634.63,"text":"脫膠、白土添加、乾燥條件的問題"},{"start":8634.63,"end":8636.63,"text":"是這樣嗎"},{"start":8636.63,"end":8638.63,"text":"不完全是,這整個的"},{"start":8638.63,"end":8640.63,"text":"簡單的結論應該是這樣講"},{"start":8640.63,"end":8642.63,"text":"就是它的這個原料"},{"start":8642.63,"end":8644.63,"text":"的部分呢,那麼"},{"start":8644.63,"end":8646.63,"text":"有它的這個風險分級的"},{"start":8646.63,"end":8648.63,"text":"要件,不同的來源"},{"start":8648.63,"end":8650.63,"text":"它的風險不同"},{"start":8650.63,"end":8652.63,"text":"所以必須要經過不同的風險"},{"start":8652.63,"end":8654.63,"text":"去調整它後面的製程"},{"start":8654.63,"end":8656.63,"text":"所以它在沒有按照風險"},{"start":8656.63,"end":8658.63,"text":"等級那麼去調整"},{"start":8658.63,"end":8660.63,"text":"後面的製程,而造成有"},{"start":8660.63,"end":8662.63,"text":"幾批的這個本篇比"},{"start":8662.63,"end":8664.63,"text":"所以你認為說這個"},{"start":8664.63,"end":8666.63,"text":"產地也是問題就對了"},{"start":8667.52,"end":8669.52,"text":"產地不是絕對的問題"},{"start":8669.52,"end":8671.52,"text":"它有風險的不同"},{"start":8671.52,"end":8673.52,"text":"應該要做風險的分析"},{"start":8673.52,"end":8675.52,"text":"進口巴西大豆的葉子你總共有幾家"},{"start":8676.53,"end":8678.53,"text":"巴西大豆的葉子總共有幾家"},{"start":8678.53,"end":8680.53,"text":"你說是進口商嗎"},{"start":8680.53,"end":8682.53,"text":"對"},{"start":8682.53,"end":8684.53,"text":"進口商這個我們就要查一下"},{"start":8684.53,"end":8686.53,"text":"對阿你們查了幾家調查了哪些項目跟內容"},{"start":8686.53,"end":8688.53,"text":"查了之後再提供給委員"},{"start":8688.53,"end":8690.53,"text":"風險不是現在"},{"start":8690.53,"end":8692.53,"text":"這個已經很明確了"},{"start":8692.53,"end":8694.53,"text":"巴西產地乾燥方式原料PAHS"},{"start":8694.53,"end":8696.53,"text":"精煉能力及"},{"start":8696.53,"end":8698.53,"text":"HACCP失靈"},{"start":8698.53,"end":8700.53,"text":"全部都是你們報告認定的風險"},{"start":8700.53,"end":8702.53,"text":"那其他"},{"start":8702.53,"end":8704.53,"text":"使用巴西大豆的自由廠難道不符合"},{"start":8704.53,"end":8706.53,"text":"風險條件嗎"},{"start":8706.53,"end":8708.53,"text":"跟委員說明我們也了解其他的廠的情形"},{"start":8708.53,"end":8710.53,"text":"所以其他的這個大廠"},{"start":8710.53,"end":8712.53,"text":"他其實有做相關的"},{"start":8712.53,"end":8714.53,"text":"風險管控比如說他會採取"},{"start":8714.53,"end":8716.53,"text":"混豆的方式來降低風險"},{"start":8716.53,"end":8718.53,"text":"或者是在後面的製程"},{"start":8718.53,"end":8720.53,"text":"當中加強抽驗"},{"start":8720.53,"end":8722.53,"text":"來確認他的這個風險"},{"start":8722.53,"end":8724.53,"text":"然後控制住他的風險"},{"start":8724.53,"end":8726.53,"text":"然後也會在製程上去做調整"},{"start":8726.53,"end":8728.53,"text":"所以其他的廠有類似"},{"start":8728.53,"end":8730.53,"text":"的做法所以不會完全"},{"start":8730.53,"end":8732.53,"text":"那這個廠他就沒有"},{"start":8732.53,"end":8734.53,"text":"把這個風險拉起來"},{"start":8734.53,"end":8736.53,"text":"也就是沒有全面調查對不對"},{"start":8736.53,"end":8738.53,"text":"其他使用油脂的工廠"},{"start":8738.53,"end":8740.53,"text":"製程風險"},{"start":8740.53,"end":8742.53,"text":"有沒有全面調查"},{"start":8742.53,"end":8744.53,"text":"另外三家的大廠"},{"start":8744.53,"end":8746.53,"text":"提供這個原油的"},{"start":8746.53,"end":8748.53,"text":"原油的我們都查過"},{"start":8748.53,"end":8750.53,"text":"都查了都查了"},{"start":8750.53,"end":8752.53,"text":"然後也抽驗了"},{"start":8752.53,"end":8754.53,"text":"抽驗的這個報告昨天也都發布了"},{"start":8754.53,"end":8756.53,"text":"全部都合格"},{"start":8756.59,"end":8758.59,"text":"好那我再問一下"},{"start":8758.59,"end":8760.59,"text":"下一題"},{"start":8784.82,"end":8786.82,"text":"都是在進行當中"},{"start":8786.82,"end":8788.82,"text":"沒有什麼優先順序"},{"start":8788.82,"end":8790.82,"text":"像今天事情的管理辦法"},{"start":8790.82,"end":8792.82,"text":"他是比較敏感的"},{"start":8792.82,"end":8794.82,"text":"這個東西也是父母最關心的問題"},{"start":8794.82,"end":8796.82,"text":"你們打算什麼時候預告"},{"start":8796.82,"end":8798.82,"text":"我們現在已經召開了兩場"},{"start":8798.82,"end":8800.82,"text":"的焦點團體"},{"start":8800.82,"end":8802.82,"text":"那麼也討論了"},{"start":8802.82,"end":8804.82,"text":"專家學者也討論了"},{"start":8804.82,"end":8806.82,"text":"那麼接下來我們會進一步擴大"},{"start":8806.82,"end":8808.82,"text":"這個收集意見"},{"start":8808.82,"end":8810.82,"text":"所以其他的一年之內一定會出來"},{"start":8810.82,"end":8812.82,"text":"會會會因為我們草案已經"},{"start":8812.82,"end":8814.82,"text":"完成在八月份就會有出稿了"},{"start":8814.82,"end":8816.82,"text":"好那我再問一下"},{"start":8816.82,"end":8818.82,"text":"問台南的這個三起脫獄的案件"},{"start":8818.82,"end":8820.82,"text":"今年一月到七月"},{"start":8820.82,"end":8822.82,"text":"台南陸續爆發或是因為"},{"start":8822.82,"end":8824.82,"text":"這個司法癥結引發社會高度"},{"start":8824.82,"end":8826.82,"text":"關注的這個重大居家脫獄"},{"start":8826.82,"end":8828.82,"text":"傷害違法的"},{"start":8828.82,"end":8830.82,"text":"事件那第一案是永康案"},{"start":8830.82,"end":8832.82,"text":"這名女嬰大概是2025年"},{"start":8832.82,"end":8834.82,"text":"12月1號開始送托"},{"start":8834.82,"end":8836.82,"text":"到2026年2月10號"},{"start":8836.82,"end":8838.82,"text":"就發生"},{"start":8838.82,"end":8840.82,"text":"嚴重的腦傷前後大概71天"},{"start":8840.82,"end":8842.82,"text":"依照規定"},{"start":8842.82,"end":8844.82,"text":"新收托兒童原則上"},{"start":8844.82,"end":8846.82,"text":"30日內就要完成訪視"},{"start":8846.82,"end":8848.82,"text":"那在這71天的托育期間"},{"start":8848.82,"end":8850.82,"text":"台南市政府總共訪視了幾次"},{"start":8854.02,"end":8856.02,"text":"這個我們調查一下"},{"start":8857.01,"end":8859.01,"text":"這個是"},{"start":8859.01,"end":8861.01,"text":"台南市政府都沒有跟"},{"start":8861.01,"end":8863.01,"text":"我們衛福部來做通報嗎"},{"start":8863.56,"end":8865.56,"text":"有沒有做一些依據"},{"start":8865.56,"end":8867.56,"text":"有沒有回報嗎"},{"start":8867.4,"end":8869.4,"text":"你們也沒有去了解嗎"},{"start":8869.4,"end":8871.4,"text":"我們來了解一下"},{"start":8871.4,"end":8873.4,"text":"因為這個是2025"},{"start":8873.4,"end":8875.4,"text":"你不要等出了事情小孩子受傷了"},{"start":8875.4,"end":8877.4,"text":"或者是發生了這個悲劇之後"},{"start":8877.4,"end":8879.4,"text":"才來急著調查"},{"start":8879.86,"end":8881.86,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8881.06,"end":8883.06,"text":"好這個我們了解一下"},{"start":8883.06,"end":8885.06,"text":"那第一案我再問你"},{"start":8885.09,"end":8887.09,"text":"麻豆案"},{"start":8887.09,"end":8889.09,"text":"鄭姓女子是登記保姆"},{"start":8889.09,"end":8891.09,"text":"向政府申報托"},{"start":8891.09,"end":8893.09,"text":"收托兩名兒童"},{"start":8893.09,"end":8895.09,"text":"實際上卻沒有登記的"},{"start":8895.09,"end":8897.09,"text":"張姓女子"},{"start":8897.09,"end":8899.09,"text":"卻與沒有登記的張姓女子"},{"start":8899.09,"end":8901.09,"text":"他共同照顧了六名幼兒"},{"start":8901.09,"end":8903.09,"text":"那檢方認定"},{"start":8903.97,"end":8905.97,"text":"涉嫌犯行期間"},{"start":8905.97,"end":8907.97,"text":"從2025年3月1號持續到12月5日"},{"start":8907.97,"end":8909.97,"text":"長達9個月"},{"start":8909.97,"end":8911.97,"text":"總共涉及六名幼童"},{"start":8911.97,"end":8913.97,"text":"這六名幼童各自是哪一天"},{"start":8913.97,"end":8915.97,"text":"開始送托"},{"start":8915.97,"end":8917.97,"text":"衛福部目前有掌握嗎"},{"start":8918.03,"end":8920.03,"text":"好我想這個當然是地方在處理啦"},{"start":8920.03,"end":8922.03,"text":"你們都不知道"},{"start":8922.03,"end":8924.03,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":8924.03,"end":8926.03,"text":"我們會來了解一下"},{"start":8926.03,"end":8928.03,"text":"地方的處理情形"},{"start":8928.03,"end":8930.03,"text":"你們本來就要追蹤說"},{"start":8930.03,"end":8932.03,"text":"這種都是已經出事的事情啊"},{"start":8932.03,"end":8934.03,"text":"你們都沒有掌握"},{"start":8934.03,"end":8936.03,"text":"地方都在處理啦"},{"start":8936.03,"end":8938.03,"text":"可是你們要掌握啊"},{"start":8938.03,"end":8940.03,"text":"我問你們都不知道"},{"start":8940.03,"end":8942.03,"text":"我們來掌握"},{"start":8939.48,"end":8941.48,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8941.48,"end":8943.48,"text":"第三案還有這名男童"},{"start":8943.48,"end":8945.48,"text":"送托只有兩到三天就死亡"},{"start":8945.48,"end":8947.48,"text":"而且他不是只有帶一個"},{"start":8947.48,"end":8949.48,"text":"兩個小孩都是他的"},{"start":8949.48,"end":8951.48,"text":"他有收費的是三個小孩"},{"start":8951.48,"end":8953.48,"text":"女性女子沒有托育資格"},{"start":8953.48,"end":8955.48,"text":"也沒有辦理居家托育登記"},{"start":8955.48,"end":8957.48,"text":"卻可以在這個臉書"},{"start":8957.48,"end":8959.48,"text":"這個社群平台裡面"},{"start":8959.48,"end":8961.48,"text":"來刊登訊息"},{"start":8961.48,"end":8963.48,"text":"招攬家長送托"},{"start":8963.48,"end":8965.48,"text":"因為他沒有登記"},{"start":8965.48,"end":8967.48,"text":"正常的收托申報30日內"},{"start":8967.48,"end":8969.48,"text":"訪問方式當然不會出現"},{"start":8969.48,"end":8971.48,"text":"也不知道"},{"start":8971.48,"end":8973.48,"text":"所以透過這種網路招攬的"},{"start":8973.48,"end":8975.48,"text":"未登記的托育未來用什麼方法"},{"start":8975.66,"end":8977.66,"text":"來這個解決"},{"start":8978.37,"end":8980.37,"text":"我們當然都會把有照的"},{"start":8980.37,"end":8982.37,"text":"合格的保母都公開資訊"},{"start":8982.37,"end":8984.37,"text":"所以我們會講先導"},{"start":8984.37,"end":8986.37,"text":"我現在講的是他真的違法的"},{"start":8986.37,"end":8988.37,"text":"讓民眾在"},{"start":8988.37,"end":8990.37,"text":"送托的時候要去選擇"},{"start":8990.37,"end":8992.37,"text":"我們有照的這些啦"},{"start":8992.37,"end":8994.37,"text":"像這個你現在看這個"},{"start":8994.37,"end":8996.37,"text":"他們那個對話截圖"},{"start":8996.37,"end":8998.37,"text":"未來我們的兒童多餘扶法"},{"start":8998.37,"end":9000.37,"text":"都會有罰則"},{"start":9000.37,"end":9002.37,"text":"我們都有"},{"start":9002.37,"end":9004.37,"text":"不要等事情發生了之後"},{"start":9004.37,"end":9006.37,"text":"才來檢討"},{"start":9006.37,"end":9008.37,"text":"你現在發現這個問題了"},{"start":9008.37,"end":9010.37,"text":"我覺得你會不會趕快把這個東西"},{"start":9010.37,"end":9012.37,"text":"加進去"},{"start":9012.37,"end":9014.37,"text":"我們還是會加強去宣導"},{"start":9014.37,"end":9016.37,"text":"其實我們現在有照的"},{"start":9016.37,"end":9018.37,"text":"都有在網路上公開資訊"},{"start":9018.37,"end":9020.37,"text":"那麼民眾在選擇保母的時候"},{"start":9020.37,"end":9022.37,"text":"我不是問你"},{"start":9022.37,"end":9024.37,"text":"你們有沒有公布"},{"start":9024.37,"end":9026.37,"text":"我是問你說這些違法隨便刊登的"},{"start":9026.37,"end":9028.37,"text":"你們用什麼方法去取締"},{"start":9028.37,"end":9030.37,"text":"去掌握"},{"start":9030.3,"end":9032.3,"text":"有那個違法的部分當然要加強查緝"},{"start":9032.3,"end":9034.3,"text":"那合法的"},{"start":9034.3,"end":9036.3,"text":"我們要讓大家都很清楚"},{"start":9036.3,"end":9038.3,"text":"盡量的"},{"start":9038.3,"end":9040.3,"text":"應該要去選擇合法的保母"},{"start":9040.3,"end":9042.3,"text":"所以三個案件都沒有列入重大案件"},{"start":9042.3,"end":9044.3,"text":"一個死掉了"},{"start":9044.44,"end":9046.44,"text":"有"},{"start":9046.68,"end":9048.68,"text":"嗯"},{"start":9048.63,"end":9050.63,"text":"應該是有討論啦"},{"start":9050.63,"end":9052.63,"text":"你們是幹什麼的"},{"start":9052.63,"end":9054.63,"text":"我們這個都有討論過"},{"start":9054.63,"end":9056.63,"text":"都有開會嘛"},{"start":9056.94,"end":9058.94,"text":"有一些跟地方的聯繫的討論"},{"start":9058.94,"end":9060.94,"text":"那這是"},{"start":9060.94,"end":9062.94,"text":"委員突然間提的這個案子"},{"start":9062.94,"end":9064.94,"text":"詳細的部分我們再"},{"start":9064.94,"end":9066.94,"text":"對啊 我都看到了你們都不知道"},{"start":9066.94,"end":9068.94,"text":"你們為何那麼多人要幹什麼的"},{"start":9069.92,"end":9071.92,"text":"當然委員特別關心這一案"},{"start":9071.92,"end":9073.92,"text":"那我們來了解之後"},{"start":9073.92,"end":9075.92,"text":"把這個資料收集之後"},{"start":9075.92,"end":9077.92,"text":"再提供給委員"},{"start":9077.92,"end":9079.92,"text":"好 盡快來 謝謝"},{"start":9080.01,"end":9082.01,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9082.01,"end":9084.01,"text":"補充"},{"start":9084.01,"end":9086.01,"text":"下回我們請"},{"start":9086.01,"end":9088.01,"text":"廖偉祥委員發言"},{"start":9097.68,"end":9099.68,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9100.04,"end":9102.04,"text":"有請"},{"start":9101.39,"end":9103.39,"text":"石崇良部長"},{"start":9103.39,"end":9105.39,"text":"跟我們國教署的彭富源署長"},{"start":9106.61,"end":9108.61,"text":"好 有請石部長跟彭署長"},{"start":9109.59,"end":9111.59,"text":"好 委員好 部長好 署長好"},{"start":9113.59,"end":9115.59,"text":"今天討論到這個人略的議題"},{"start":9115.59,"end":9117.59,"text":"你是不是還記得我上一次"},{"start":9117.59,"end":9119.59,"text":"在質詢的時候也有相關的"},{"start":9119.59,"end":9121.59,"text":"這個提出"},{"start":9121.59,"end":9123.59,"text":"指出過有一個標案"},{"start":9123.59,"end":9125.59,"text":"民眾要求地方政府"},{"start":9125.59,"end":9127.59,"text":"落實與其"},{"start":9127.59,"end":9129.59,"text":"官網登載之違法"},{"start":9129.59,"end":9131.59,"text":"拖欲人員案情及資訊"},{"start":9131.59,"end":9133.59,"text":"那因與本部的"},{"start":9133.59,"end":9135.59,"text":"社家署建置CRC的"},{"start":9135.59,"end":9137.59,"text":"資訊網違反"},{"start":9137.59,"end":9139.59,"text":"而效法裁罰專區"},{"start":9139.59,"end":9141.59,"text":"呈現的資訊一致"},{"start":9142.94,"end":9144.94,"text":"結果之前政經各界的"},{"start":9144.94,"end":9146.94,"text":"這個胸口碎大石的虐兒案"},{"start":9146.94,"end":9148.94,"text":"那時候我就有說過"},{"start":9148.94,"end":9150.94,"text":"他們分別在2024年的"},{"start":9150.94,"end":9152.94,"text":"3月27號有被罰"},{"start":9152.94,"end":9154.94,"text":"6000元 然後教保"},{"start":9154.94,"end":9156.94,"text":"服務人員對於誘惡有非"},{"start":9156.94,"end":9158.94,"text":"屬情結重大之不當"},{"start":9158.94,"end":9160.94,"text":"對待行為 那他在2024年"},{"start":9160.94,"end":9162.94,"text":"又有4月18號"},{"start":9162.94,"end":9164.94,"text":"也是有罰緩6000元"},{"start":9164.94,"end":9166.94,"text":"教保服務機構"},{"start":9166.94,"end":9168.94,"text":"有教保服務人員"},{"start":9168.94,"end":9170.94,"text":"誘惡不當對待的行為"},{"start":9170.94,"end":9172.94,"text":"這兩筆資料在你們的系統中"},{"start":9172.94,"end":9174.94,"text":"還是找不到"},{"start":9174.94,"end":9176.94,"text":"請問你們有釐清原因了嗎"},{"start":9182.21,"end":9184.21,"text":"沒辦法回答"},{"start":9184.76,"end":9186.76,"text":"當時就有說你們為什麼找不到"},{"start":9186.76,"end":9188.76,"text":"相關的紀錄 我上次就有問過了"},{"start":9190.78,"end":9192.78,"text":"所以你們回去還是沒有釐清 為什麼會找不到嗎"},{"start":9192.78,"end":9194.78,"text":"我原是說在那個"},{"start":9194.78,"end":9196.78,"text":"教保系統上面"},{"start":9196.78,"end":9198.78,"text":"就是你們社家屬的CRC資訊網裡面"},{"start":9200.72,"end":9202.72,"text":"要呈現這個"},{"start":9202.72,"end":9204.72,"text":"兒竇裁罰專區要呈現資訊一致"},{"start":9205.87,"end":9207.87,"text":"那我之前有說過這個胸口"},{"start":9207.87,"end":9209.87,"text":"碎大石案的虐兒案"},{"start":9209.87,"end":9211.87,"text":"那個時候我說他們分別其實就有在"},{"start":9211.87,"end":9213.87,"text":"2024年的3月27號跟"},{"start":9213.87,"end":9215.87,"text":"2024年的4月18號都有違規的事件"},{"start":9215.87,"end":9217.87,"text":"有被裁罰"},{"start":9217.87,"end":9219.87,"text":"那為什麼你們的網站上面沒有找不到"},{"start":9219.87,"end":9221.87,"text":"我說你們當時要回去釐清"},{"start":9221.87,"end":9223.87,"text":"原因你們釐清了嗎"},{"start":9224.55,"end":9226.55,"text":"跟委員說明 我們現在"},{"start":9226.55,"end":9228.55,"text":"目前的做法是用連結過去"},{"start":9228.55,"end":9230.55,"text":"連結到"},{"start":9230.55,"end":9232.55,"text":"教保系統那邊去"},{"start":9232.55,"end":9234.55,"text":"那委員是希望是說"},{"start":9234.55,"end":9236.55,"text":"我去查還是沒有"},{"start":9236.55,"end":9238.55,"text":"那你們原因是什麼 沒有這兩案"},{"start":9240.54,"end":9242.54,"text":"那是應該在教保系統裡面"},{"start":9243.08,"end":9245.08,"text":"沒有那兩案"},{"start":9245.08,"end":9247.08,"text":"那你們社家屬也沒有"},{"start":9247.08,"end":9249.08,"text":"因為我們是用連結的方式過去"},{"start":9249.08,"end":9251.08,"text":"好 我跟你說"},{"start":9251.08,"end":9253.08,"text":"我去幫你們查的原因 好不好"},{"start":9253.08,"end":9255.08,"text":"這個署長也應該要了解一下"},{"start":9255.99,"end":9257.99,"text":"現行規定你們教育部"},{"start":9257.99,"end":9259.99,"text":"的確就有所謂的"},{"start":9259.99,"end":9261.99,"text":"輕罪下架的原則"},{"start":9262.89,"end":9264.89,"text":"也就是說只要間隔一段時間"},{"start":9264.89,"end":9266.89,"text":"即便有違規 有不當對待的"},{"start":9266.89,"end":9268.89,"text":"紀錄的保姆或幼兒園"},{"start":9268.89,"end":9270.89,"text":"他紀錄也會因為"},{"start":9270.89,"end":9272.89,"text":"輕罪下架而被抹掉"},{"start":9272.89,"end":9274.89,"text":"直接原地的消失"},{"start":9274.89,"end":9276.89,"text":"未來在你們的資料庫也查不到"},{"start":9276.89,"end":9278.89,"text":"所以衛福部你們去連結"},{"start":9278.89,"end":9280.89,"text":"教育部的資料的時候"},{"start":9280.89,"end":9282.89,"text":"你就會因為他下架了 你找不到"},{"start":9284.18,"end":9286.18,"text":"你現在才知道嗎 部長"},{"start":9286.18,"end":9288.18,"text":"我不知道 有這個"},{"start":9288.18,"end":9290.18,"text":"所以我現在就是告訴你 我叫你們回去釐清"},{"start":9290.18,"end":9292.18,"text":"狀況你們根本沒有釐清嘛"},{"start":9292.18,"end":9294.18,"text":"所以這個部份是由前任的部長"},{"start":9294.18,"end":9296.18,"text":"潘文忠時期所發布的公告"},{"start":9297.3,"end":9299.3,"text":"我想確認一下 這樣子的做法"},{"start":9299.3,"end":9301.3,"text":"現在署長"},{"start":9300.91,"end":9302.91,"text":"和我們衛福部部長"},{"start":9302.91,"end":9304.91,"text":"你們贊同這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":9307.83,"end":9309.83,"text":"這個我們還是會"},{"start":9309.83,"end":9311.83,"text":"回到我們現在的"},{"start":9311.83,"end":9313.83,"text":"兒少跟未來的這個"},{"start":9313.83,"end":9315.83,"text":"我就問你簡單的 你認同這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":9315.83,"end":9317.83,"text":"他有一些資訊需要揭露的"},{"start":9317.83,"end":9319.83,"text":"來 部長回答"},{"start":9319.83,"end":9321.83,"text":"你們認不認同這樣子當初定下來的"},{"start":9321.83,"end":9323.83,"text":"做法"},{"start":9322.98,"end":9324.98,"text":"剛剛委員報告"},{"start":9324.98,"end":9326.98,"text":"第一點 當時這樣的做法是跟地方政府"},{"start":9326.98,"end":9328.98,"text":"還有相關的團體一起規劃"},{"start":9328.98,"end":9330.98,"text":"那未來 部長 署長你簡單回答我"},{"start":9330.98,"end":9332.98,"text":"你認不認同嗎"},{"start":9332.98,"end":9334.98,"text":"未來在相關的實現上"},{"start":9334.98,"end":9336.98,"text":"會列入我們跟最近一次地方政府"},{"start":9336.98,"end":9338.98,"text":"一起討論"},{"start":9338.4,"end":9340.4,"text":"所以你認同還是不認同"},{"start":9340.4,"end":9342.4,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9342.4,"end":9344.4,"text":"因為這會涉及到可能"},{"start":9344.4,"end":9346.4,"text":"譬如說我們可以罰到六千"},{"start":9346.4,"end":9348.4,"text":"一直到六十萬"},{"start":9348.4,"end":9350.4,"text":"哪一個界線"},{"start":9350.4,"end":9352.4,"text":"這我已經呈現出來"},{"start":9352.4,"end":9354.4,"text":"你說沒有 六千的是三個月"},{"start":9354.4,"end":9356.4,"text":"多少錢的是六個月"},{"start":9356.4,"end":9358.4,"text":"因為這涉及到剛剛講的裁罰的輕重之後"},{"start":9358.4,"end":9360.4,"text":"配以它是多少期限"},{"start":9360.4,"end":9362.4,"text":"好 部長 署長"},{"start":9362.4,"end":9364.4,"text":"我跟你們說這也是一個很重要的"},{"start":9364.4,"end":9366.4,"text":"系統性漏洞"},{"start":9364.8,"end":9366.8,"text":"這是一個系統性的問題"},{"start":9366.8,"end":9368.8,"text":"會有這樣的漏洞也是雙重疊加的後果"},{"start":9368.8,"end":9370.8,"text":"所以我剛剛說最早可以追溯到"},{"start":9370.8,"end":9372.8,"text":"上一屆111年的5月31號"},{"start":9372.8,"end":9374.8,"text":"你們新增了一個"},{"start":9374.8,"end":9376.8,"text":"61條第四項"},{"start":9376.8,"end":9378.8,"text":"把公佈多久的權限移交給教育部"},{"start":9379.65,"end":9383.65,"text":"包含公佈負責人行為人機構名稱及常職者"},{"start":9383.65,"end":9385.65,"text":"其公佈期間由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":9387.26,"end":9389.26,"text":"然後後來教育部就做出了一個非常荒謬的決定"},{"start":9389.26,"end":9391.26,"text":"就是資料庫針對裁罰對象"},{"start":9391.26,"end":9393.26,"text":"最短最短只要公佈三個月就可以刪掉"},{"start":9396.5,"end":9398.5,"text":"所以我想要請教部長"},{"start":9398.5,"end":9400.5,"text":"或者署長"},{"start":9400.5,"end":9402.5,"text":"右教法的第61條第四項"},{"start":9402.5,"end":9404.5,"text":"及教保人員條例的第49條"},{"start":9404.5,"end":9406.5,"text":"第四項"},{"start":9406.5,"end":9408.5,"text":"有不公佈或者是輕罪"},{"start":9408.5,"end":9410.5,"text":"下架的空間嗎"},{"start":9410.5,"end":9412.5,"text":"有這樣子說嗎"},{"start":9414.37,"end":9416.37,"text":"這個在兩法"},{"start":9416.37,"end":9418.37,"text":"對於譬如說不讓管教"},{"start":9418.37,"end":9420.37,"text":"或是重大的爭議"},{"start":9420.37,"end":9422.37,"text":"在第51條28條等等"},{"start":9422.37,"end":9424.37,"text":"這個是會比較重的公佈"},{"start":9424.37,"end":9426.37,"text":"那剛剛委員講"},{"start":9426.37,"end":9428.37,"text":"當時在相關的預告上"},{"start":9428.37,"end":9430.37,"text":"之後有一些討論"},{"start":9430.37,"end":9432.37,"text":"包含法學專家"},{"start":9432.37,"end":9434.37,"text":"這些我們未來"},{"start":9434.37,"end":9436.37,"text":"實現過了以後"},{"start":9436.37,"end":9438.37,"text":"其實我們也一直接到一些訊息"},{"start":9438.37,"end":9440.37,"text":"為什麼我要提出這件事情"},{"start":9440.37,"end":9442.37,"text":"是一個系統性的問題"},{"start":9442.37,"end":9444.37,"text":"因為在今年四月的時候"},{"start":9444.37,"end":9446.37,"text":"台南中西區的愛迪生"},{"start":9446.37,"end":9448.37,"text":"滋幽幼兒園"},{"start":9448.37,"end":9450.37,"text":"爆發一起重大惡劣"},{"start":9450.45,"end":9452.45,"text":"把小孩子關進紙箱"},{"start":9452.45,"end":9454.45,"text":"搖晃 推頭 壓臉 強迫餵食"},{"start":9454.45,"end":9456.45,"text":"那你知道幼兒園"},{"start":9456.45,"end":9458.45,"text":"早在2019年的時候"},{"start":9458.45,"end":9460.45,"text":"其實就已經有兩起違規紀錄"},{"start":9460.45,"end":9462.45,"text":"那他分別被裁罰了"},{"start":9462.45,"end":9464.45,"text":"15000跟3000元"},{"start":9464.26,"end":9466.26,"text":"但是你們現在資訊"},{"start":9466.26,"end":9468.26,"text":"家長是查不到的"},{"start":9468.26,"end":9470.26,"text":"也就是說他被測下來之後"},{"start":9470.26,"end":9472.26,"text":"2020年 2021年之後可能他就查不到了"},{"start":9472.26,"end":9474.26,"text":"然後這個被公佈的"},{"start":9474.26,"end":9476.26,"text":"謝姓負責人"},{"start":9476.26,"end":9478.26,"text":"他在2026爆發"},{"start":9478.26,"end":9480.26,"text":"重大惡劣被停止招生"},{"start":9480.26,"end":9482.26,"text":"一年重罰50萬之前"},{"start":9482.26,"end":9484.26,"text":"他被你們下架了"},{"start":9484.26,"end":9486.26,"text":"多少筆的前科你知道嗎"},{"start":9486.65,"end":9488.65,"text":"你們可以回答嗎"},{"start":9489.23,"end":9491.23,"text":"剛剛委員所提的是大概"},{"start":9491.23,"end":9493.23,"text":"依我們的參考是16筆"},{"start":9493.23,"end":9495.23,"text":"但是"},{"start":9495.23,"end":9497.23,"text":"16筆嘛對 你被下"},{"start":9497.23,"end":9499.23,"text":"你把他的這個相關的下架前科16筆了"},{"start":9499.23,"end":9501.23,"text":"也就是包含了2018年的"},{"start":9501.23,"end":9503.23,"text":"11月5筆 2018年"},{"start":9503.23,"end":9505.23,"text":"12月6筆 2019年分別"},{"start":9505.23,"end":9507.23,"text":"的裁罰還有3筆的這些罰金"},{"start":9507.23,"end":9509.23,"text":"他可以說是前科的"},{"start":9509.23,"end":9511.23,"text":"但是其實現在你們的網路上面"},{"start":9511.23,"end":9513.23,"text":"家長是不知道 沒有辦法去你們的"},{"start":9513.23,"end":9515.23,"text":"網站上面找到"},{"start":9515.23,"end":9517.23,"text":"那家長要如何知道自己"},{"start":9517.23,"end":9519.23,"text":"不知道這間這個育幼中心"},{"start":9519.23,"end":9521.23,"text":"是有沒有問題的"},{"start":9521.87,"end":9523.87,"text":"所以如果教育部覺得不是不當對待的前科可以下架"},{"start":9523.87,"end":9525.87,"text":"那我們再來看看"},{"start":9525.87,"end":9527.87,"text":"下一個案子好不好"},{"start":9527.87,"end":9529.87,"text":"下一個案子呢 上一次高雄"},{"start":9529.87,"end":9531.87,"text":"重大惡劣也是一個謝姓負責人"},{"start":9531.87,"end":9533.87,"text":"一樣在2024年的時候"},{"start":9533.87,"end":9535.87,"text":"經濟部自來水股份有限公司"},{"start":9535.87,"end":9537.87,"text":"第七區的管理處"},{"start":9537.87,"end":9539.87,"text":"的職場就有兩筆不當對待"},{"start":9539.87,"end":9541.87,"text":"那他結果"},{"start":9541.87,"end":9543.87,"text":"資料也被下架之後"},{"start":9543.87,"end":9545.87,"text":"他到了2026年就爆發了"},{"start":9545.87,"end":9547.87,"text":"重大惡劣"},{"start":9547.7,"end":9549.7,"text":"台南人人森林"},{"start":9549.7,"end":9551.7,"text":"2023年的時候"},{"start":9551.7,"end":9553.7,"text":"虐待行前科"},{"start":9553.7,"end":9555.7,"text":"2024年的10月份"},{"start":9555.7,"end":9557.7,"text":"開始到2025年也陸續被罰了13萬"},{"start":9558.87,"end":9560.87,"text":"高雄的嘉欣幼兒園2024年的時候"},{"start":9560.87,"end":9562.87,"text":"下架不當對待"},{"start":9562.87,"end":9564.87,"text":"2025年再被罰12萬"},{"start":9565.76,"end":9567.76,"text":"所以在台南高雄屏東"},{"start":9567.76,"end":9569.76,"text":"這些縣市至少有7家"},{"start":9569.76,"end":9571.76,"text":"元所8筆"},{"start":9571.76,"end":9573.76,"text":"虐童的前科被下架後"},{"start":9573.76,"end":9575.76,"text":"又爆發出20筆的"},{"start":9575.76,"end":9577.76,"text":"虐童財閥"},{"start":9577.27,"end":9579.27,"text":"所以部長署長我想請教"},{"start":9579.27,"end":9581.27,"text":"這樣子你們覺得"},{"start":9581.27,"end":9583.27,"text":"這樣子的規定這樣子的下架"},{"start":9583.27,"end":9585.27,"text":"有辦法達到你心目中的導證效果呢"},{"start":9586.03,"end":9588.03,"text":"對像這些下架的這個實現"},{"start":9588.03,"end":9590.03,"text":"配以他原來的"},{"start":9590.03,"end":9592.03,"text":"範型這一些在"},{"start":9592.03,"end":9594.03,"text":"最近的一次修法檢討中"},{"start":9594.03,"end":9596.03,"text":"都列為幫好人甚至跨部會"},{"start":9596.03,"end":9598.03,"text":"以及跟地方政府一起來做"},{"start":9598.03,"end":9600.03,"text":"檢視謝謝委員剛好我們也是"},{"start":9600.03,"end":9602.03,"text":"列入檢討了"},{"start":9602.03,"end":9604.03,"text":"所以今天討論的我要講的事情是"},{"start":9604.03,"end":9606.03,"text":"這個中央則無旁貸"},{"start":9606.03,"end":9608.03,"text":"這根本是制度的問題導致"},{"start":9608.03,"end":9610.03,"text":"系統性的錯誤"},{"start":9609.97,"end":9611.97,"text":"所以這一些他已經"},{"start":9611.97,"end":9613.97,"text":"累犯前科你們有辦法在"},{"start":9613.97,"end":9615.97,"text":"第一個家長不知道"},{"start":9615.97,"end":9617.97,"text":"然後第二個家長不知道的"},{"start":9617.97,"end":9619.97,"text":"情況之下你們去怎麼去督導"},{"start":9619.97,"end":9621.97,"text":"這些累犯的你怎麼樣進場"},{"start":9621.97,"end":9623.97,"text":"去改善這些累犯的問題"},{"start":9624.27,"end":9626.27,"text":"所以你們能不能在一個月內"},{"start":9626.27,"end":9628.27,"text":"盤查出到底有多少間在被裁罰過後"},{"start":9628.27,"end":9630.27,"text":"下架公告其後再犯的"},{"start":9630.27,"end":9632.27,"text":"到底有哪些的清單給本席辦公室"},{"start":9632.27,"end":9634.27,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":9634.41,"end":9636.41,"text":"可以好署長答應了"},{"start":9636.41,"end":9638.41,"text":"那部長這裡有沒有要不要去追蹤"},{"start":9638.41,"end":9640.41,"text":"一下你們兩邊的系統我們沒有"},{"start":9640.41,"end":9642.41,"text":"下架的問題我們上去就是上去"},{"start":9642.41,"end":9644.41,"text":"但是你是跟著他所以他下架了你的"},{"start":9644.41,"end":9646.41,"text":"系統也會跟著更新因為我們是"},{"start":9646.41,"end":9648.41,"text":"把我們的紀錄通通會給"},{"start":9648.41,"end":9650.41,"text":"教育部我跟你說你們"},{"start":9650.41,"end":9652.41,"text":"你們的系統就是有這個問題我們同仁"},{"start":9652.41,"end":9654.41,"text":"已經上網去查過了我剛剛"},{"start":9654.41,"end":9656.41,"text":"也講過為什麼因為他們教育"},{"start":9656.41,"end":9658.41,"text":"部這邊下架了之後你這邊可能是"},{"start":9658.41,"end":9660.41,"text":"用API或是什麼資訊聯動你可能"},{"start":9660.41,"end":9662.41,"text":"跟著下架你連結的"},{"start":9662.41,"end":9664.41,"text":"所以你就跟著下架了嘛"},{"start":9664.41,"end":9666.41,"text":"所以你也是一樣你根本搞不清楚說"},{"start":9666.41,"end":9668.41,"text":"為什麼他會斷鏈的這個資訊斷鏈了"},{"start":9668.41,"end":9670.41,"text":"所以到底有哪一些"},{"start":9670.41,"end":9672.41,"text":"有在犯那針對這些"},{"start":9672.41,"end":9674.41,"text":"累犯你們有沒有加重懲罰或者"},{"start":9674.41,"end":9676.41,"text":"公佈的機制"},{"start":9675.84,"end":9677.84,"text":"如果都沒有這不就是導致系統性的問題"},{"start":9677.84,"end":9679.84,"text":"成為違規者的庇護所"},{"start":9679.84,"end":9681.84,"text":"而虐的溫床的問題嗎"},{"start":9682.67,"end":9684.67,"text":"是不是你們這些累犯的因為你覺得"},{"start":9684.67,"end":9686.67,"text":"輕所以你下了你又沒有"},{"start":9686.67,"end":9688.67,"text":"針對累犯的去"},{"start":9688.59,"end":9690.59,"text":"嚴格的控管"},{"start":9692.05,"end":9694.05,"text":"我跟你說喔部長"},{"start":9694.05,"end":9696.05,"text":"我們的罰則裡面就有"},{"start":9696.05,"end":9698.05,"text":"累犯的去"},{"start":9698.05,"end":9700.05,"text":"就是他是一個範圍嘛"},{"start":9700.05,"end":9702.05,"text":"可是問題是你辭掉還是下架了"},{"start":9702.05,"end":9704.05,"text":"所以我要告訴你為什麼你們下架的"},{"start":9704.05,"end":9706.05,"text":"長曆起來的資料我們是怎麼盤點出來"},{"start":9706.05,"end":9708.05,"text":"你知道嗎"},{"start":9707.41,"end":9709.41,"text":"我們是從民間的資料庫去查的"},{"start":9710.45,"end":9712.45,"text":"你政府的資料庫你自己沒有辦法"},{"start":9712.45,"end":9714.45,"text":"給民間有這樣的信賴"},{"start":9714.45,"end":9716.45,"text":"信任是民間的網站"},{"start":9716.45,"end":9718.45,"text":"自己譬如說幼兒童幼兒園"},{"start":9718.45,"end":9720.45,"text":"資料站還有自主的"},{"start":9720.45,"end":9722.45,"text":"備份資料庫"},{"start":9722.22,"end":9724.22,"text":"也就是說民間自己"},{"start":9724.22,"end":9726.22,"text":"把教育部本來說可能"},{"start":9726.22,"end":9728.22,"text":"要下架的資料他都先自己備份起來"},{"start":9728.22,"end":9730.22,"text":"所以他在他網站上會"},{"start":9730.22,"end":9732.22,"text":"呈現出完整的紀錄"},{"start":9732.35,"end":9734.35,"text":"沒有所謂下架的問題"},{"start":9734.35,"end":9736.35,"text":"所以這些被下架的資料"},{"start":9736.35,"end":9738.35,"text":"通通散落在這些民間的網站"},{"start":9738.35,"end":9740.35,"text":"而且其實對於家長"},{"start":9740.35,"end":9742.35,"text":"來講他必須要花很大的力氣才查得到"},{"start":9743.37,"end":9745.37,"text":"所以剛看到了我剛說的"},{"start":9745.37,"end":9747.37,"text":"下架之後累犯然後爆發"},{"start":9747.37,"end":9749.37,"text":"重大而虐其實"},{"start":9749.76,"end":9751.76,"text":"現在就是說你們的所謂的輔導改正方案"},{"start":9751.76,"end":9753.76,"text":"是根本沒有用的"},{"start":9753.76,"end":9755.76,"text":"而且你們現在的這種機制"},{"start":9755.76,"end":9757.76,"text":"還讓你們的資料庫喪失公信力"},{"start":9758.07,"end":9760.07,"text":"那倘若之後"},{"start":9760.07,"end":9762.07,"text":"家長來就責說明明人家就累犯"},{"start":9762.07,"end":9764.07,"text":"那我因為不知道所以我去"},{"start":9764.07,"end":9766.07,"text":"把小孩送到這裡然後發生了虐"},{"start":9766.07,"end":9768.07,"text":"那這樣算誰的?算誰的責任?"},{"start":9768.07,"end":9770.07,"text":"是不是中央應該也有責任?"},{"start":9770.1,"end":9772.1,"text":"所以最後的結果就是你們每年花了200萬"},{"start":9772.1,"end":9774.1,"text":"去做一個三個月"},{"start":9774.1,"end":9776.1,"text":"可能就會被裁罰下架的"},{"start":9776.1,"end":9778.1,"text":"沒有公信力的網站"},{"start":9778.1,"end":9780.1,"text":"然後你們自己寬鬆的下架認定反而成為了"},{"start":9780.1,"end":9782.1,"text":"虐童的溫床"},{"start":9782.1,"end":9784.1,"text":"讓重大而虐的寧願警系統被閹割的做法"},{"start":9784.1,"end":9786.1,"text":"刪掉了可能家長看不到"},{"start":9786.1,"end":9788.1,"text":"然後也當做沒事"},{"start":9788.1,"end":9790.1,"text":"就是一種鴕鳥心態"},{"start":9790.01,"end":9792.01,"text":"更完全沒有起到輔導的效果"},{"start":9792.01,"end":9794.01,"text":"所以家長與其"},{"start":9794.01,"end":9796.01,"text":"信你們的200萬一年的資料庫"},{"start":9796.01,"end":9798.01,"text":"更情願去查民間的資料庫"},{"start":9798.01,"end":9800.01,"text":"那請問你們建這個資料庫"},{"start":9800.01,"end":9802.01,"text":"還有它的意義存在嗎?"},{"start":9803.46,"end":9805.46,"text":"所以部長署長我覺得真正的輔導"},{"start":9805.46,"end":9807.46,"text":"措施不是下架記錄"},{"start":9807.46,"end":9809.46,"text":"是你的記錄要保留"},{"start":9809.46,"end":9811.46,"text":"然後由主管機關去輔導改正"},{"start":9811.46,"end":9813.46,"text":"尤其是你發現它頻繁的"},{"start":9813.46,"end":9815.46,"text":"就算是小錯也累犯了"},{"start":9815.46,"end":9817.46,"text":"你們的官方要來輔導"},{"start":9817.46,"end":9819.46,"text":"然後輔導完你才可以"},{"start":9819.46,"end":9821.46,"text":"真正的去監控它"},{"start":9821.46,"end":9823.46,"text":"是不是在管理上有改進"},{"start":9823.46,"end":9825.46,"text":"這樣才有辦法確實的管考的效果"},{"start":9825.46,"end":9827.46,"text":"然後你們要盡責的去輔導改善"},{"start":9827.46,"end":9829.46,"text":"未來這些機關再犯"},{"start":9829.46,"end":9831.46,"text":"我們就可以監督問責"},{"start":9831.46,"end":9833.46,"text":"這才是健康的做法"},{"start":9833.46,"end":9835.46,"text":"不是你好像做了一個虛有其表的"},{"start":9835.46,"end":9837.46,"text":"這個記錄資料庫結果又下架了"},{"start":9837.46,"end":9839.46,"text":"然後可能"},{"start":9839.46,"end":9841.46,"text":"家長不知道了就送去了"},{"start":9841.46,"end":9843.46,"text":"那最後又發生了"},{"start":9843.46,"end":9845.46,"text":"重大而虐"},{"start":9845.46,"end":9847.46,"text":"這樣子的憾事我們不希望再看到"},{"start":9847.46,"end":9849.46,"text":"所以這個部分是不是請教育部"},{"start":9849.46,"end":9851.46,"text":"跟請衛福部"},{"start":9851.46,"end":9853.46,"text":"在一個月內提出檢討報告"},{"start":9853.46,"end":9855.46,"text":"然後告訴本席主管機關"},{"start":9855.46,"end":9857.46,"text":"重新認證的方案"},{"start":9857.46,"end":9859.46,"text":"然後你們兩個的資料庫"},{"start":9859.71,"end":9861.71,"text":"到底怎麼串接"},{"start":9861.71,"end":9863.71,"text":"衛福部你覺得是只要尊重教育部"},{"start":9863.71,"end":9865.71,"text":"他什麼時間下架你就跟著更新"},{"start":9865.71,"end":9867.71,"text":"還是你應該要盡責的把所有記錄"},{"start":9867.71,"end":9869.71,"text":"都完整的統計好"},{"start":9869.78,"end":9871.78,"text":"這個請你們兩個部會"},{"start":9872.9,"end":9874.9,"text":"檢討給本席好不好"},{"start":9874.9,"end":9876.9,"text":"好那這個謝謝署長"},{"start":9876.9,"end":9878.9,"text":"署長可以回座了我接下來要再問"},{"start":9878.9,"end":9880.9,"text":"部長有關於現在的"},{"start":9880.9,"end":9882.9,"text":"善忠或是安樂死的議題"},{"start":9882.9,"end":9884.9,"text":"今天剛好另外一個很重要的議題"},{"start":9884.9,"end":9886.9,"text":"也就是社會很關心的安樂死這個議題"},{"start":9886.9,"end":9888.9,"text":"那在這個上面"},{"start":9888.9,"end":9890.9,"text":"我們是尊重善忠和自主權"},{"start":9890.9,"end":9892.9,"text":"不過在另一方面"},{"start":9892.9,"end":9894.9,"text":"我想要強調要補強另一方面的社會議題"},{"start":9894.9,"end":9896.9,"text":"所以我想要先請教部長"},{"start":9896.9,"end":9898.9,"text":"現在政府能不能夠充分"},{"start":9898.9,"end":9900.9,"text":"的界定這個善忠的選擇"},{"start":9900.9,"end":9902.9,"text":"他究竟是"},{"start":9902.9,"end":9904.9,"text":"基於想要解脫痛苦"},{"start":9905.71,"end":9907.71,"text":"還是因為他們失去了自主"},{"start":9907.71,"end":9909.71,"text":"尊嚴跟社會的支持"},{"start":9909.71,"end":9911.71,"text":"然後在我們社會支持"},{"start":9911.71,"end":9913.71,"text":"社會福利不夠完善的狀況"},{"start":9913.71,"end":9915.71,"text":"之下讓某些人寧可選擇"},{"start":9915.71,"end":9917.71,"text":"安樂死"},{"start":9917.23,"end":9921.23,"text":"我非常認同這個委員所提到的這些觀點"},{"start":9921.23,"end":9923.23,"text":"所以在推動這個安樂死的時候"},{"start":9923.23,"end":9925.23,"text":"確實您所提到的"},{"start":9925.23,"end":9927.23,"text":"這個社會的支持也好"},{"start":9927.23,"end":9929.23,"text":"或者是經濟的壓力也好"},{"start":9929.23,"end":9931.23,"text":"這些都需要併同去考量進來的"},{"start":9931.23,"end":9933.23,"text":"對 所以部長"},{"start":9933.23,"end":9935.23,"text":"國際官方的資料"},{"start":9935.23,"end":9937.23,"text":"所以等一下我想要先問你們"},{"start":9937.23,"end":9939.23,"text":"現在你認同我的觀點"},{"start":9939.23,"end":9941.23,"text":"但是你有辦法去區分說"},{"start":9941.23,"end":9943.23,"text":"他到底是"},{"start":9942.56,"end":9944.56,"text":"想要基於解脫痛苦還是他們真的是"},{"start":9944.56,"end":9946.56,"text":"因為失去了社會的支持"},{"start":9946.56,"end":9948.56,"text":"相關的配套所以他不得不去選擇"},{"start":9948.56,"end":9950.56,"text":"安樂死"},{"start":9950.56,"end":9952.56,"text":"所以從其他國家的施行的經驗"},{"start":9952.56,"end":9954.56,"text":"確實這個是最困難的地方"},{"start":9954.56,"end":9956.56,"text":"也是他引發最多爭議的地方"},{"start":9956.56,"end":9958.56,"text":"又什麼很多國家像英國"},{"start":9958.56,"end":9960.56,"text":"討論了這麼久還是無法完成立法"},{"start":9960.56,"end":9962.56,"text":"所以我今天這個角度"},{"start":9962.56,"end":9964.56,"text":"就是要告訴你從這個角度"},{"start":9964.56,"end":9966.56,"text":"我們很關切的"},{"start":9966.56,"end":9968.56,"text":"國際的官方資料顯示求助死亡的原因"},{"start":9968.56,"end":9970.56,"text":"常常不是單一疼痛而是失去"},{"start":9970.56,"end":9972.56,"text":"自主失去尊嚴"},{"start":9972.56,"end":9974.56,"text":"失去有意義的生活"},{"start":9974.56,"end":9976.56,"text":"甚至出現孤立然後認為自己"},{"start":9976.56,"end":9978.56,"text":"成為負擔的感受"},{"start":9977.93,"end":9979.93,"text":"所以美國全國性的調查研究"},{"start":9979.93,"end":9981.93,"text":"也彙整指出成人"},{"start":9981.93,"end":9983.93,"text":"身心障礙者回報"},{"start":9983.93,"end":9985.93,"text":"自殺想法的機率為非"},{"start":9985.93,"end":9987.93,"text":"障礙者的兩到三倍"},{"start":9987.96,"end":9989.96,"text":"那自殺計畫的呢還是"},{"start":9989.96,"end":9991.96,"text":"二到四倍自殺企圖的"},{"start":9991.96,"end":9993.96,"text":"約兩到三倍然後另外一個"},{"start":9993.96,"end":9995.96,"text":"研究他也顯示喔"},{"start":9995.96,"end":9997.96,"text":"障礙跟自殺念頭計畫跟企圖"},{"start":9997.96,"end":9999.96,"text":"都有顯著的關聯"},{"start":9999.96,"end":10001.96,"text":"那WHO也指出"},{"start":10001.96,"end":10003.96,"text":"身心障礙者面臨更高的憂鬱"},{"start":10003.96,"end":10005.96,"text":"跟健康不平等的風險"},{"start":10007.24,"end":10009.24,"text":"那這些研究的結果用百花紋來說"},{"start":10009.24,"end":10011.24,"text":"如果一個人不是因為病痛"},{"start":10011.24,"end":10013.24,"text":"本身不可承受而是因為在家裡"},{"start":10013.24,"end":10015.24,"text":"生活活不下去出門找不到人協助"},{"start":10015.24,"end":10017.24,"text":"照顧者撐不住"},{"start":10017.24,"end":10019.24,"text":"只能住機構或者成為家人的長期負擔"},{"start":10021.49,"end":10023.49,"text":"這就不只是個人選擇"},{"start":10023.49,"end":10025.49,"text":"而是作為一個人的基本人權"},{"start":10025.49,"end":10027.49,"text":"都被法令被制度"},{"start":10027.49,"end":10029.49,"text":"被社會的環境因素被障礙了"},{"start":10029.49,"end":10031.49,"text":"這個我們之前討論"},{"start":10031.49,"end":10033.49,"text":"申權法所以部長你認同"},{"start":10033.49,"end":10035.49,"text":"我這個觀點和研究嗎"},{"start":10035.49,"end":10037.49,"text":"我非常認同這個是"},{"start":10037.49,"end":10039.49,"text":"很深度的討論了啦"},{"start":10039.49,"end":10041.49,"text":"從我們國內的自己的資料"},{"start":10041.49,"end":10043.49,"text":"從我們的自殺原因的調查"},{"start":10043.49,"end":10045.49,"text":"這些自殺企圖的原因調查"},{"start":10045.49,"end":10047.49,"text":"也可以發現到"},{"start":10047.49,"end":10049.49,"text":"那麼在高齡特別是在高齡者"},{"start":10049.49,"end":10051.49,"text":"疾病因素跟憂鬱情緒"},{"start":10051.49,"end":10053.49,"text":"那麼精神的問題"},{"start":10053.49,"end":10055.49,"text":"這個是造成他"},{"start":10055.49,"end":10057.49,"text":"自殺意念的一個因素之一"},{"start":10057.49,"end":10059.49,"text":"那如果是在"},{"start":10059.49,"end":10061.49,"text":"中壯年的時期"},{"start":10061.49,"end":10063.49,"text":"那麼他的家庭經濟"},{"start":10063.49,"end":10065.49,"text":"跟"},{"start":10065.49,"end":10067.49,"text":"所以部長"},{"start":10067.49,"end":10069.49,"text":"我知道所以我想要給你看一下"},{"start":10069.49,"end":10071.49,"text":"這個影片可以播嗎"},{"start":10071.76,"end":10072.26,"text":"啊"},{"start":10073.12,"end":10075.12,"text":"相關政策更是政府"},{"start":10075.12,"end":10077.12,"text":"迫切要面對的問題"},{"start":10081.8,"end":10085.8,"text":"很早就已經發展出一套系統了"},{"start":10085.8,"end":10087.8,"text":"他們也不只有"},{"start":10087.8,"end":10090.8,"text":"政府政策上面的資源要"},{"start":10090.8,"end":10092.8,"text":"他們"},{"start":10092.58,"end":10096.58,"text":"上網的這些經營的記憶上的支持"},{"start":10096.58,"end":10098.58,"text":"所以他們他有辦法"},{"start":10099.94,"end":10101.94,"text":"還有辦法有一個"},{"start":10101.94,"end":10103.94,"text":"政黨助理可以"},{"start":10103.94,"end":10107.94,"text":"二次小時協助你過政過"},{"start":10107.94,"end":10109.94,"text":"那如果台灣有"},{"start":10109.94,"end":10113.94,"text":"我們可以有這樣子的制度的話"},{"start":10113.94,"end":10115.94,"text":"那當然我也可以不用選擇這樣子"},{"start":10117.12,"end":10119.12,"text":"對所以這個議題就是這樣"},{"start":10119.12,"end":10121.12,"text":"他後來可能去選擇"},{"start":10121.12,"end":10123.12,"text":"安樂死"},{"start":10123.12,"end":10125.12,"text":"那就是因為我們這個就是一個活生生的案例"},{"start":10125.12,"end":10127.12,"text":"就是因為我們社會沒有辦法支持"},{"start":10127.12,"end":10129.12,"text":"我們現在討論申權法這個"},{"start":10129.12,"end":10131.12,"text":"所謂的個人協助制度"},{"start":10132.59,"end":10134.59,"text":"對不對就有高度的相關嘛"},{"start":10134.59,"end":10136.59,"text":"所以有各處的協助可以讓許多的障礙者"},{"start":10136.59,"end":10138.59,"text":"尤其是重度的障礙者"},{"start":10138.59,"end":10140.59,"text":"可以活得有尊嚴"},{"start":10140.59,"end":10142.59,"text":"而且要補這個填補長照不足的地方"},{"start":10146.46,"end":10148.46,"text":"所以衛福部在2022年"},{"start":10148.46,"end":10150.46,"text":"提交立法院的報告也指出"},{"start":10150.46,"end":10152.46,"text":"2018年至2021年的"},{"start":10152.46,"end":10154.46,"text":"個人助理使用人數"},{"start":10154.46,"end":10156.46,"text":"只有從532人"},{"start":10156.46,"end":10158.46,"text":"增加到800人"},{"start":10158.46,"end":10160.46,"text":"2022年的上半年為750人"},{"start":10160.46,"end":10162.46,"text":"那現在大概是1300人"},{"start":10162.46,"end":10164.46,"text":"相較於台灣有身心障礙證明"},{"start":10164.46,"end":10166.46,"text":"和重度障礙的這些"},{"start":10166.46,"end":10168.46,"text":"需求的量能"},{"start":10168.46,"end":10170.46,"text":"顯得非常的有限喔"},{"start":10170.46,"end":10172.46,"text":"所以我想要問部長喔接下來對個人助理的規劃"},{"start":10172.46,"end":10174.46,"text":"也就是申權法保障的內容"},{"start":10174.46,"end":10176.46,"text":"你們預計要編列多少經費"},{"start":10176.46,"end":10178.46,"text":"你們要如何保障這種"},{"start":10178.46,"end":10180.46,"text":"被制度逼死的問題"},{"start":10180.46,"end":10182.46,"text":"不要再發生"},{"start":10182.46,"end":10184.46,"text":"因為如果也是安樂死"},{"start":10184.46,"end":10186.46,"text":"未來如果通過之後很可能我們需要面對的問題"},{"start":10188.28,"end":10190.28,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":10190.28,"end":10192.28,"text":"其實我們也在努力的推動這個"},{"start":10192.28,"end":10194.28,"text":"個人助理特別是"},{"start":10194.28,"end":10196.28,"text":"自立生活的支持其實預算"},{"start":10196.28,"end":10198.28,"text":"也從110年的8000多萬"},{"start":10198.28,"end":10200.28,"text":"到115年已經到"},{"start":10200.28,"end":10202.28,"text":"突破4億了"},{"start":10202.28,"end":10204.28,"text":"所以我們也是努力的"},{"start":10204.28,"end":10206.28,"text":"再增加這些協助"},{"start":10206.28,"end":10208.28,"text":"但是這些障礙者他們"},{"start":10208.28,"end":10210.28,"text":"並不覺得真的被支持到"},{"start":10210.28,"end":10212.28,"text":"這些障礙團體都是大聲在疾呼"},{"start":10212.28,"end":10214.28,"text":"不管是入法專章"},{"start":10214.28,"end":10216.28,"text":"或者是專法"},{"start":10216.28,"end":10218.28,"text":"還是你的訓練人數"},{"start":10218.28,"end":10220.28,"text":"然後你的經費到底足不足夠"},{"start":10220.28,"end":10222.28,"text":"所以"},{"start":10220.97,"end":10222.97,"text":"我想要說對於這個"},{"start":10222.97,"end":10224.97,"text":"個人助理的培訓加強"},{"start":10224.97,"end":10226.97,"text":"甚至他們的待遇"},{"start":10226.97,"end":10228.97,"text":"還有未來的人力安排經費編列"},{"start":10228.97,"end":10230.97,"text":"你們是不是可以再繼續"},{"start":10230.97,"end":10232.97,"text":"擴大支持"},{"start":10232.97,"end":10234.97,"text":"我們現在也在調高"},{"start":10234.97,"end":10236.97,"text":"相關的費用的部分"},{"start":10236.97,"end":10238.97,"text":"給他調高因為人力"},{"start":10238.97,"end":10240.97,"text":"還是一個瓶頸"},{"start":10240.97,"end":10242.97,"text":"就是這些個人助理的人力"},{"start":10242.97,"end":10244.97,"text":"是一個問題"},{"start":10244.97,"end":10246.97,"text":"所以我們需要去調高他的"},{"start":10246.97,"end":10248.97,"text":"這個支付"},{"start":10248.97,"end":10250.97,"text":"我們希望除了預算"},{"start":10250.97,"end":10252.97,"text":"相關的配套支持之外"},{"start":10252.97,"end":10254.97,"text":"真的需要更加重視入法"},{"start":10254.97,"end":10256.97,"text":"制度的設計上相關的執法"},{"start":10256.97,"end":10258.97,"text":"我們也會逐步的去強化他"},{"start":10258.97,"end":10260.97,"text":"部長我想要講的很簡單"},{"start":10260.97,"end":10262.97,"text":"其實只要看得出來"},{"start":10262.97,"end":10264.97,"text":"是支持不夠福利不足"},{"start":10264.97,"end":10266.97,"text":"照顧出問題的地方"},{"start":10266.97,"end":10268.97,"text":"這些都會影響"},{"start":10268.97,"end":10270.97,"text":"重政者想不想活下去"},{"start":10270.97,"end":10272.97,"text":"所以國家能不能把每一個"},{"start":10272.97,"end":10274.97,"text":"想死的個案"},{"start":10274.97,"end":10276.97,"text":"如果國家是不能夠把每一個"},{"start":10276.97,"end":10278.97,"text":"想死的個案都推給他天生"},{"start":10278.97,"end":10280.97,"text":"就是這樣或是這是醫療問題等等"},{"start":10280.97,"end":10282.97,"text":"國家存在的目的就是希望"},{"start":10282.97,"end":10284.97,"text":"保障每個人每個需要的人"},{"start":10284.97,"end":10286.97,"text":"都有尊嚴的生存權"},{"start":10286.97,"end":10288.97,"text":"還有更好的生活所以國家有義務"},{"start":10288.97,"end":10290.97,"text":"先把這個基本的生活條件補起來"},{"start":10290.97,"end":10292.97,"text":"你應該趕快的把這塊"},{"start":10292.97,"end":10294.97,"text":"補起來不然我們看到很多重度"},{"start":10294.97,"end":10296.97,"text":"障礙者他晚上"},{"start":10296.97,"end":10298.97,"text":"半夜三斤想要吃個香蕉都很困難"},{"start":10298.97,"end":10300.97,"text":"這個是日本"},{"start":10300.97,"end":10302.97,"text":"有一個相關的影片請部長回去"},{"start":10302.97,"end":10304.97,"text":"可以好好體會一下"},{"start":10304.97,"end":10306.97,"text":"我真的覺得這是需要大家"},{"start":10306.97,"end":10308.97,"text":"共同有同理心的"},{"start":10308.97,"end":10310.97,"text":"最後不好意思主席"},{"start":10310.97,"end":10312.97,"text":"真的兩件事也蠻重要的"},{"start":10312.97,"end":10314.97,"text":"但是我會很簡短的請部長回答"},{"start":10314.97,"end":10316.97,"text":"其實這次包含剛剛討論的"},{"start":10316.97,"end":10318.97,"text":"所謂的食安的專家會議"},{"start":10318.97,"end":10320.97,"text":"其實也有相關的報導"},{"start":10319.97,"end":10321.97,"text":"包含之前這個"},{"start":10321.97,"end":10323.97,"text":"我想要請問一下你們這個專家會議"},{"start":10323.99,"end":10327.99,"text":"你們的相關記錄相關的錄音檔你們會保存多久"},{"start":10328.07,"end":10330.07,"text":"剛剛我已經在"},{"start":10330.07,"end":10332.07,"text":"回覆王玉明委員這邊"},{"start":10332.07,"end":10334.07,"text":"那麼我們會把這些"},{"start":10334.07,"end":10336.07,"text":"資料一送給剪掉"},{"start":10336.07,"end":10338.07,"text":"所以不會銷毀你要確定喔"},{"start":10338.07,"end":10340.07,"text":"因為過去在"},{"start":10340.07,"end":10342.07,"text":"這個疫苗相關的"},{"start":10342.07,"end":10344.07,"text":"專家會議的時候疫苗受害者專家會議的時候"},{"start":10344.07,"end":10346.07,"text":"你們的會議"},{"start":10346.07,"end":10348.07,"text":"記錄說一個月就會把它銷毀"},{"start":10348.76,"end":10350.76,"text":"錄音檔就會銷毀"},{"start":10350.76,"end":10352.76,"text":"可是導致後來根本就沒有辦法去"},{"start":10352.76,"end":10354.76,"text":"在法院有相關的證據"},{"start":10354.97,"end":10356.97,"text":"你要在這裡跟本席保證"},{"start":10356.97,"end":10358.97,"text":"你的所有相關的錄音檔"},{"start":10360.03,"end":10362.03,"text":"都完整的保存"},{"start":10362.03,"end":10364.03,"text":"我們現在就把這些資料一送給剪掉"},{"start":10364.03,"end":10366.03,"text":"就會一送給剪掉去處理"},{"start":10366.03,"end":10368.03,"text":"所以不會銷毀"},{"start":10368.03,"end":10370.03,"text":"這個證物就變成是證物了"},{"start":10370.85,"end":10372.85,"text":"這個第一件事情我要提醒你的"},{"start":10372.85,"end":10374.85,"text":"第二件事情是8月8號"},{"start":10374.85,"end":10376.85,"text":"快要到了我想請教一下部長"},{"start":10376.85,"end":10378.85,"text":"我過去長期倡議多次質詢"},{"start":10378.85,"end":10380.85,"text":"有關於社會互現公費"},{"start":10380.85,"end":10382.85,"text":"癌篩的部分"},{"start":10382.41,"end":10384.41,"text":"請問現在的狀況如何"},{"start":10384.41,"end":10386.41,"text":"可不可以"},{"start":10385.87,"end":10387.87,"text":"告訴本席可以在8月8號的時候"},{"start":10387.87,"end":10389.87,"text":"給這些男性們"},{"start":10389.87,"end":10391.87,"text":"父親節一個禮物"},{"start":10392.5,"end":10394.5,"text":"因為我昨天才參加了一個"},{"start":10394.5,"end":10396.5,"text":"也是因為社會互現癌太晚發現"},{"start":10396.5,"end":10398.5,"text":"所以轉移到"},{"start":10398.02,"end":10400.02,"text":"這個各個器官的一個告別式"},{"start":10400.02,"end":10402.02,"text":"我認為這是現在很嚴重的問題"},{"start":10402.02,"end":10404.02,"text":"那部長你當初也跟我說過"},{"start":10404.02,"end":10406.02,"text":"現在的技術做得到"},{"start":10406.02,"end":10408.02,"text":"可以更精準"},{"start":10408.02,"end":10410.02,"text":"偽陽性更低"},{"start":10410.02,"end":10412.02,"text":"你有跟本席說過"},{"start":10412.02,"end":10414.02,"text":"你可不可以在這裡"},{"start":10413.31,"end":10415.31,"text":"給本席一個答覆"},{"start":10443.31,"end":10445.31,"text":"其實已經到第五位了"},{"start":10445.31,"end":10447.31,"text":"然後隨著高凝化"},{"start":10447.31,"end":10449.31,"text":"他的發生率"},{"start":10449.31,"end":10451.31,"text":"也是在上升"},{"start":10451.31,"end":10453.31,"text":"所以我們會在年底之前"},{"start":10453.31,"end":10455.31,"text":"提出一個國家的計畫"},{"start":10455.31,"end":10457.31,"text":"不是啊"},{"start":10457.31,"end":10459.31,"text":"部長你不要搞到年底"},{"start":10459.31,"end":10461.31,"text":"8月8號快到了父親節"},{"start":10461.31,"end":10463.31,"text":"你趕快在這裡承諾一下大家吧"},{"start":10463.31,"end":10465.31,"text":"委員這個要搭配預算的"},{"start":10465.31,"end":10467.31,"text":"不是我說了馬上就可以做"},{"start":10467.31,"end":10469.31,"text":"所以他要有一個完整的規劃"},{"start":10469.31,"end":10471.31,"text":"你如果已經有這個意向了"},{"start":10471.31,"end":10473.31,"text":"你只是預算的話"},{"start":10473.31,"end":10475.31,"text":"那你就編嘛"},{"start":10475.31,"end":10477.31,"text":"我們希望明年來推動"},{"start":10477.31,"end":10479.31,"text":"希望明年所以你會做"},{"start":10479.31,"end":10481.31,"text":"會會會做謝謝"},{"start":10481.31,"end":10483.31,"text":"請大家把這個幾乎"},{"start":10483.31,"end":10485.31,"text":"不要說往這個方向"},{"start":10485.31,"end":10487.31,"text":"你會做還是不會做"},{"start":10487.31,"end":10489.31,"text":"我們現在正在規劃中"},{"start":10489.31,"end":10491.31,"text":"你已經都說會做"},{"start":10491.31,"end":10493.31,"text":"你8月8號送給大家"},{"start":10493.31,"end":10495.31,"text":"男性一個父親節大禮"},{"start":10495.31,"end":10497.31,"text":"這個沒有幾天的時間"},{"start":10497.31,"end":10499.31,"text":"我覺得太草率了"},{"start":10499.31,"end":10501.31,"text":"要嚴謹的規劃"},{"start":10501.31,"end":10503.31,"text":"所以現在的問題都沒了"},{"start":10503.31,"end":10505.31,"text":"就是預算"},{"start":10505.31,"end":10507.31,"text":"過去有很多女性的來篩"},{"start":10507.31,"end":10509.31,"text":"也都有預算支持"},{"start":10509.31,"end":10511.31,"text":"我想這個社務線來已經賣到前五名了"},{"start":10511.31,"end":10513.31,"text":"社務線來的篩檢"},{"start":10513.31,"end":10515.31,"text":"那麼他有包含"},{"start":10515.31,"end":10517.31,"text":"對象還有篩檢的方式"},{"start":10517.31,"end":10519.31,"text":"還有他的proco code"},{"start":10519.31,"end":10521.31,"text":"跟後面如何去接診"},{"start":10521.31,"end":10523.31,"text":"可以好好的再來"},{"start":10523.31,"end":10525.31,"text":"檢討討論"},{"start":10525.31,"end":10527.31,"text":"但是我本席就是要你一個承諾"},{"start":10527.31,"end":10529.31,"text":"好久了"},{"start":10529.31,"end":10531.31,"text":"你張市明明也承諾說"},{"start":10531.31,"end":10533.31,"text":"現在的技術也都做得到了"},{"start":10533.31,"end":10535.31,"text":"所以你不能把預算當做一個藉口"},{"start":10535.31,"end":10537.31,"text":"這個預算一定要有"},{"start":10537.31,"end":10539.31,"text":"不然我們這個"},{"start":10539.31,"end":10541.31,"text":"所以你要做了你就編預算了"},{"start":10541.31,"end":10543.31,"text":"我相信衛環委員會的所有的委員"},{"start":10543.31,"end":10545.31,"text":"這些很棒的委員們"},{"start":10545.31,"end":10547.31,"text":"都會支持的好不好"},{"start":10547.31,"end":10549.31,"text":"謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":10550.38,"end":10552.38,"text":"好謝謝廖宇翔委員的發言"},{"start":10552.38,"end":10554.38,"text":"也謝謝部長的答詢"},{"start":10554.38,"end":10556.38,"text":"下位請林淑雯委員發言"},{"start":10566.95,"end":10568.95,"text":"好謝謝主席喔"},{"start":10568.95,"end":10570.95,"text":"是不是請我們的時務長"},{"start":10571.66,"end":10573.66,"text":"也請時務長"},{"start":10575.95,"end":10577.95,"text":"部長好"},{"start":10578.26,"end":10580.26,"text":"大家求好死"},{"start":10580.26,"end":10584.26,"text":"善終都是成為年長者口中所謂的福報"},{"start":10584.26,"end":10586.26,"text":"我們經常在走基層"},{"start":10586.26,"end":10588.26,"text":"那也"},{"start":10588.26,"end":10590.26,"text":"聽到很多的心聲"},{"start":10590.26,"end":10592.26,"text":"這是社會上"},{"start":10592.26,"end":10594.26,"text":"切切實實很多人的想法"},{"start":10594.26,"end":10596.26,"text":"很多人支持安樂死"},{"start":10596.26,"end":10598.26,"text":"但也不是說"},{"start":10598.26,"end":10600.26,"text":"我們不珍惜生命"},{"start":10600.26,"end":10602.26,"text":"而是我們害怕"},{"start":10602.26,"end":10604.26,"text":"是不是癌症末期無法控制的疼痛"},{"start":10604.26,"end":10606.26,"text":"是不是失智以後"},{"start":10606.26,"end":10608.26,"text":"整個帶給家人的負擔"},{"start":10608.26,"end":10610.26,"text":"或者是中風以後"},{"start":10610.26,"end":10612.26,"text":"長期臥床完全失能"},{"start":10612.26,"end":10614.26,"text":"完全的依賴他人"},{"start":10614.26,"end":10618.26,"text":"成為家庭裡面的照顧和經濟上的重擔"},{"start":10618.26,"end":10620.26,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":10622.03,"end":10624.03,"text":"的確就是這樣子"},{"start":10624.03,"end":10626.03,"text":"你說大家都覺得說不尊重生命"},{"start":10626.03,"end":10628.03,"text":"不是我們真的不是那樣子"},{"start":10628.03,"end":10630.03,"text":"那這種恐懼非常的強大"},{"start":10630.03,"end":10632.03,"text":"包括我自己"},{"start":10632.03,"end":10634.03,"text":"包括我自己"},{"start":10634.03,"end":10636.03,"text":"我都支持說"},{"start":10636.03,"end":10638.03,"text":"我們要有安樂死"},{"start":10638.03,"end":10640.03,"text":"因為我們看了很多"},{"start":10640.03,"end":10642.03,"text":"身邊的人真的也很多"},{"start":10642.03,"end":10644.03,"text":"這樣的案例"},{"start":10644.03,"end":10646.03,"text":"所以並不是憑空去想像那種恐懼"},{"start":10646.03,"end":10648.03,"text":"而是真真實實"},{"start":10648.03,"end":10650.03,"text":"每個人看得到"},{"start":10650.03,"end":10652.03,"text":"然後接觸得到"},{"start":10652.03,"end":10654.03,"text":"甚至都發生過了"},{"start":10654.03,"end":10656.03,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":10659.23,"end":10663.23,"text":"加拿大有一項針對醫療協助死亡的申請者的研究"},{"start":10663.23,"end":10667.23,"text":"因為這個社會的對話一定要開啟"},{"start":10667.23,"end":10669.23,"text":"而台灣這個社會的對話"},{"start":10669.23,"end":10673.23,"text":"我們很遺憾官方的正式的從來沒有開啟過"},{"start":10673.23,"end":10675.23,"text":"而立法院今天是第一次"},{"start":10675.23,"end":10677.23,"text":"而立法院的第一次"},{"start":10677.23,"end":10679.23,"text":"就直接進入了巡達"},{"start":10679.23,"end":10681.23,"text":"而沒有公聽"},{"start":10681.23,"end":10683.23,"text":"沒有在傾聽這個民間的聲音"},{"start":10683.23,"end":10685.23,"text":"可是"},{"start":10685.23,"end":10687.23,"text":"在加拿大"},{"start":10687.23,"end":10689.23,"text":"已經有一項這個研究發現"},{"start":10689.23,"end":10691.23,"text":"他們實際上"},{"start":10691.23,"end":10695.23,"text":"接受醫療協助死亡者提出的理由"},{"start":10695.23,"end":10697.23,"text":"不只是疾病症狀"},{"start":10697.23,"end":10699.23,"text":"有五成提到"},{"start":10699.23,"end":10701.23,"text":"他失去自主"},{"start":10701.23,"end":10703.23,"text":"然後近五成提到"},{"start":10703.23,"end":10705.23,"text":"他失去從事喜愛活動的能力"},{"start":10705.23,"end":10709.23,"text":"也有人是出於對未來痛苦的恐懼"},{"start":10709.23,"end":10711.23,"text":"那相關的訪談"},{"start":10711.23,"end":10713.23,"text":"研究也發現"},{"start":10713.23,"end":10715.23,"text":"患者所認為的"},{"start":10715.23,"end":10717.23,"text":"接受的生活品質"},{"start":10717.23,"end":10719.23,"text":"這個概念"},{"start":10719.23,"end":10723.23,"text":"通常都會跟失去獨立行動和溝通能力"},{"start":10723.23,"end":10727.23,"text":"以及失去的人生目的和有意義的活動有關"},{"start":10727.23,"end":10729.23,"text":"所以"},{"start":10729.23,"end":10731.23,"text":"在這裡大家都覺得說生命是無價"},{"start":10731.23,"end":10733.23,"text":"可是生命無價這句話太容易了"},{"start":10733.23,"end":10735.23,"text":"因為你要求一個病人"},{"start":10735.23,"end":10737.23,"text":"繼續承受一切"},{"start":10737.23,"end":10739.23,"text":"不能夠因為害怕老去"},{"start":10739.23,"end":10741.23,"text":"不能夠害怕失能"},{"start":10741.23,"end":10743.23,"text":"不能夠害怕長期照顧"},{"start":10743.23,"end":10745.23,"text":"就急著用安樂死回應這一些恐懼"},{"start":10745.23,"end":10747.23,"text":"我覺得你們就是用這種道德來回應"},{"start":10749.46,"end":10751.46,"text":"支持的人"},{"start":10751.46,"end":10755.46,"text":"可是的確這個是很扎扎實實的存在"},{"start":10756.73,"end":10758.73,"text":"所以我們在這裡"},{"start":10758.73,"end":10760.73,"text":"我們也知道說因為死亡"},{"start":10760.73,"end":10762.73,"text":"是生命一旦終止"},{"start":10762.73,"end":10764.73,"text":"都沒有辦法補救"},{"start":10765.79,"end":10767.79,"text":"你誤判了也沒有辦法補救"},{"start":10767.79,"end":10769.79,"text":"所以我們今天要談的不是說"},{"start":10769.79,"end":10771.79,"text":"大家你支持或是你反對"},{"start":10771.79,"end":10773.79,"text":"而是我們希望這個對話"},{"start":10773.79,"end":10775.79,"text":"今天第一次的對話我們要談更多"},{"start":10775.79,"end":10777.79,"text":"而台灣的醫療"},{"start":10777.79,"end":10779.79,"text":"台灣的長照制度"},{"start":10779.79,"end":10781.79,"text":"台灣的社會"},{"start":10781.79,"end":10783.79,"text":"支持的條件法律的制度"},{"start":10783.79,"end":10785.79,"text":"是不是已經準備好了"},{"start":10785.79,"end":10787.79,"text":"要承擔這一項"},{"start":10787.79,"end":10789.79,"text":"無法挽回的決定"},{"start":10789.79,"end":10791.79,"text":"我們這個社會"},{"start":10791.79,"end":10793.79,"text":"準備好了沒"},{"start":10793.79,"end":10797.79,"text":"那安樂死要開放到哪個程度"},{"start":10797.79,"end":10799.79,"text":"我們要先劃出適用的範圍"},{"start":10799.79,"end":10801.79,"text":"大家都知道"},{"start":10801.79,"end":10803.79,"text":"實施安樂死或醫治死亡"},{"start":10803.79,"end":10805.79,"text":"醫療協助死亡的國家"},{"start":10805.79,"end":10807.79,"text":"適用的範圍都不相同"},{"start":10807.79,"end":10809.79,"text":"大概分成兩種模式"},{"start":10809.79,"end":10811.79,"text":"第一種就是"},{"start":10811.79,"end":10813.79,"text":"很侷限說在"},{"start":10813.79,"end":10817.79,"text":"死亡已經接近的末期的病人"},{"start":10817.79,"end":10819.79,"text":"大家都其實在道德上"},{"start":10819.79,"end":10821.79,"text":"壓力也比較少"},{"start":10821.79,"end":10823.79,"text":"爭端爭議也比較少"},{"start":10823.79,"end":10825.79,"text":"但另一種是"},{"start":10825.79,"end":10829.79,"text":"不要求病人即將末期即將死亡"},{"start":10829.79,"end":10831.79,"text":"只要你疾病無法治癒"},{"start":10831.79,"end":10833.79,"text":"痛苦無法忍受"},{"start":10833.79,"end":10835.79,"text":"經過法定審查後就直接適用"},{"start":10837.7,"end":10839.7,"text":"美國的阿勒岡跟紐西蘭"},{"start":10839.7,"end":10843.7,"text":"大概採取的是相對限縮的模式"},{"start":10845.15,"end":10847.15,"text":"只要你是可能在六個月內"},{"start":10847.15,"end":10851.15,"text":"醫生判定六個月內死亡的末期病患"},{"start":10851.15,"end":10855.15,"text":"你申請還有執行時具備決定的能力"},{"start":10855.15,"end":10859.15,"text":"自行服藥或者是醫助死亡"},{"start":10859.15,"end":10863.15,"text":"但可以看得到病人死亡都接近了"},{"start":10863.15,"end":10865.15,"text":"就比較限縮的"},{"start":10865.15,"end":10867.15,"text":"可是大家社會上普遍爭議的"},{"start":10867.15,"end":10871.15,"text":"不是在這一種相對限縮的"},{"start":10871.15,"end":10873.15,"text":"很大的爭議是"},{"start":10873.15,"end":10875.15,"text":"加拿大和荷蘭"},{"start":10875.15,"end":10877.15,"text":"他們的適用範圍比較寬"},{"start":10877.15,"end":10881.15,"text":"然後也不要求要接近死亡"},{"start":10881.15,"end":10883.15,"text":"加拿大本來是侷限在接近死亡"},{"start":10883.15,"end":10885.15,"text":"但他們後來放寬了"},{"start":10885.15,"end":10891.15,"text":"他們2021年起不再要求比較侷限"},{"start":10891.15,"end":10895.15,"text":"而是比較放寬的"},{"start":10895.53,"end":10899.53,"text":"針對自然死亡並不是合理可預見的"},{"start":10899.53,"end":10903.53,"text":"即便你沒有合理的可預見"},{"start":10903.53,"end":10907.53,"text":"但是你還是經過了第二軌的審查程序的話"},{"start":10907.53,"end":10909.53,"text":"他還是會放寬"},{"start":10910.21,"end":10912.21,"text":"捷我加拿大"},{"start":10913.11,"end":10915.11,"text":"2024年那一年"},{"start":10915.11,"end":10919.11,"text":"那一年一共有16499人"},{"start":10919.11,"end":10921.11,"text":"好多喔"},{"start":10921.97,"end":10925.97,"text":"他們去申請接受醫療協助一處死亡"},{"start":10925.97,"end":10929.97,"text":"但是16499人裡面"},{"start":10929.97,"end":10931.97,"text":"第二軌的進入到第二軌"},{"start":10931.97,"end":10933.97,"text":"就是大部分都是默契啦"},{"start":10933.97,"end":10935.97,"text":"但不是默契"},{"start":10935.97,"end":10937.97,"text":"但是也是同意他的"},{"start":10937.97,"end":10939.97,"text":"去申請的有732人"},{"start":10939.97,"end":10941.97,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":10941.97,"end":10943.97,"text":"抱歉同意的"},{"start":10945.19,"end":10947.19,"text":"是732人"},{"start":10947.19,"end":10951.19,"text":"但是申請的案件有1233個件數申請"},{"start":10951.19,"end":10955.19,"text":"其中有321件被認定不符合資格"},{"start":10955.19,"end":10957.19,"text":"大概26%不符合資格"},{"start":10957.19,"end":10961.19,"text":"然後不被許可"},{"start":10961.19,"end":10963.19,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":10963.19,"end":10965.19,"text":"這種案件都要審查很久很久"},{"start":10965.19,"end":10967.19,"text":"這顯示因為死亡不是開玩笑"},{"start":10967.19,"end":10971.19,"text":"你一旦判定了"},{"start":10971.19,"end":10973.19,"text":"他其實是不可逆轉的"},{"start":10973.19,"end":10975.19,"text":"所以是很嚴肅的"},{"start":10975.19,"end":10977.19,"text":"所以在這裡都會"},{"start":10977.19,"end":10979.19,"text":"你是不是死亡將近啊"},{"start":10979.19,"end":10981.19,"text":"你這個疾病是不是難以治癒啊"},{"start":10981.19,"end":10983.19,"text":"你這個衰退是不是不可逆啊"},{"start":10983.19,"end":10985.19,"text":"你的痛苦是不是有其他緩解的辦法等等"},{"start":10988.54,"end":10990.54,"text":"都要成為判斷的依據"},{"start":10990.54,"end":10996.54,"text":"那荷蘭也不是以這個默契或6個月死亡為必要要件"},{"start":10996.54,"end":11000.54,"text":"只要病人的痛苦符合具有醫療上的原因"},{"start":11000.54,"end":11004.54,"text":"而且已經無法忍受且沒有改善的希望"},{"start":11004.54,"end":11006.54,"text":"並符合自願而審慎的請求"},{"start":11006.54,"end":11008.54,"text":"充分的告知"},{"start":11008.54,"end":11012.54,"text":"沒有合理替代方法及獨立醫師評估等條件就可以適用了"},{"start":11014.75,"end":11016.75,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":11017.06,"end":11019.06,"text":"在荷蘭裡面"},{"start":11019.06,"end":11021.06,"text":"如果你是說我年事已高"},{"start":11021.06,"end":11023.06,"text":"我認為人生已經完整了"},{"start":11023.06,"end":11025.06,"text":"那我對繼續生活失去期待"},{"start":11026.86,"end":11030.86,"text":"這個是不足以構成他們許可安樂死的法定事由"},{"start":11030.86,"end":11032.86,"text":"那這兩種模式"},{"start":11033.77,"end":11035.77,"text":"我們今天兩個兩個提案"},{"start":11037.09,"end":11039.09,"text":"都類似"},{"start":11039.09,"end":11041.09,"text":"一個是局限在默契"},{"start":11041.09,"end":11043.09,"text":"接近死亡"},{"start":11043.09,"end":11045.09,"text":"一個是不已接近死亡"},{"start":11045.09,"end":11047.09,"text":"然後只要痛苦難耐"},{"start":11047.09,"end":11049.09,"text":"大概就開放了這樣子"},{"start":11049.09,"end":11051.09,"text":"所以這個這兩個提案"},{"start":11051.09,"end":11053.09,"text":"和這世界上存在的這兩種模式"},{"start":11053.09,"end":11055.09,"text":"大概這兩個提案就可以代表了"},{"start":11056.99,"end":11058.99,"text":"那這個兩個提案"},{"start":11058.99,"end":11060.99,"text":"或這兩種模式的差別"},{"start":11060.99,"end":11062.99,"text":"不是只有適用範圍不同"},{"start":11062.99,"end":11064.99,"text":"而是國家允許醫療介入死亡的理由不同"},{"start":11064.99,"end":11066.99,"text":"所以這個東西"},{"start":11069.88,"end":11071.88,"text":"我們要講說"},{"start":11071.88,"end":11073.88,"text":"回到這兩份草案裡面"},{"start":11073.88,"end":11075.88,"text":"陳冠廷的版本"},{"start":11075.88,"end":11077.88,"text":"就是要求病人承受"},{"start":11077.68,"end":11079.68,"text":"啊"},{"start":11078.6,"end":11080.6,"text":"難以忍受無法緩解的身體痛苦"},{"start":11080.6,"end":11082.6,"text":"然後默契才可以"},{"start":11082.6,"end":11084.6,"text":"那民眾黨的版本是"},{"start":11084.6,"end":11086.6,"text":"不用默契"},{"start":11086.6,"end":11088.6,"text":"只要疾病無法治癒痛苦"},{"start":11088.6,"end":11090.6,"text":"難以忍受"},{"start":11090.6,"end":11092.6,"text":"而且現在的醫療水準"},{"start":11092.6,"end":11094.6,"text":"沒有其他合適的解決方法"},{"start":11094.6,"end":11096.6,"text":"就可以提出申請"},{"start":11096.6,"end":11098.6,"text":"那所以在這裡"},{"start":11098.6,"end":11100.6,"text":"我們真的是"},{"start":11101.42,"end":11103.42,"text":"跟民間的想像有點落差"},{"start":11103.42,"end":11105.42,"text":"因為兩者都是"},{"start":11105.42,"end":11107.42,"text":"一個是要接近死亡"},{"start":11108.07,"end":11110.07,"text":"即便是安樂死"},{"start":11110.07,"end":11112.07,"text":"大家民間所想要的"},{"start":11112.07,"end":11114.07,"text":"很多人想要的安樂死"},{"start":11114.07,"end":11116.07,"text":"跟這兩個版本所提的安樂死"},{"start":11117.74,"end":11119.74,"text":"落差很大"},{"start":11119.47,"end":11121.47,"text":"因為即便是開放"},{"start":11121.47,"end":11123.47,"text":"更開放的"},{"start":11123.47,"end":11125.47,"text":"這個民眾黨的版本"},{"start":11125.47,"end":11127.47,"text":"也是要求說"},{"start":11127.76,"end":11129.76,"text":"痛苦難以忍受"},{"start":11129.76,"end":11131.76,"text":"齁,疾病無法治癒"},{"start":11132.6,"end":11134.6,"text":"那所以我就是不懂"},{"start":11134.6,"end":11136.6,"text":"因為一般人就想說"},{"start":11136.6,"end":11138.6,"text":"那我中風了"},{"start":11138.6,"end":11140.6,"text":"全部失能了,癱瘓了"},{"start":11139.99,"end":11141.99,"text":"那符不符合民眾黨版本的"},{"start":11141.99,"end":11143.99,"text":"疾病無法治癒"},{"start":11143.99,"end":11145.99,"text":"痛苦難以忍受"},{"start":11145.99,"end":11147.99,"text":"你覺得呢,部長?"},{"start":11148.16,"end":11150.16,"text":"這個跟委員說明"},{"start":11150.16,"end":11152.16,"text":"您的這些見解是非常深入的"},{"start":11152.16,"end":11154.16,"text":"這也就是為什麼"},{"start":11154.16,"end":11156.16,"text":"我主張他不應該用公投的方式"},{"start":11156.16,"end":11158.16,"text":"來解決"},{"start":11158.16,"end":11160.16,"text":"因為這個是需要很多"},{"start":11160.16,"end":11162.16,"text":"面向的廣泛的討論跟對話"},{"start":11162.16,"end":11164.16,"text":"所以我們會來啟動"},{"start":11164.16,"end":11166.16,"text":"我剛剛講的說,一年我們來做這個"},{"start":11166.16,"end":11168.16,"text":"我現在看你"},{"start":11168.16,"end":11170.16,"text":"我發現你好像瘦很多"},{"start":11171.97,"end":11173.97,"text":"抱歉,這是題外話"},{"start":11175.18,"end":11177.18,"text":"公投你叫人家支持安樂死"},{"start":11177.18,"end":11179.18,"text":"反對安樂死"},{"start":11179.18,"end":11181.18,"text":"這個是粗暴的"},{"start":11181.18,"end":11183.18,"text":"這是粗暴的"},{"start":11183.18,"end":11185.18,"text":"但我們在這裡,就是因為在這裡是立法院"},{"start":11185.18,"end":11187.18,"text":"就整個國家"},{"start":11187.18,"end":11189.18,"text":"對於安樂死這個議題"},{"start":11189.18,"end":11191.18,"text":"第一次很正式的對話"},{"start":11191.18,"end":11193.18,"text":"所以在這裡"},{"start":11193.18,"end":11195.18,"text":"我們必須要"},{"start":11195.18,"end":11197.18,"text":"細緻一點的來討論"},{"start":11197.18,"end":11199.18,"text":"因為"},{"start":11199.18,"end":11201.18,"text":"人民投我支持安樂死"},{"start":11201.18,"end":11203.18,"text":"可是他想像的安樂死"},{"start":11203.18,"end":11205.18,"text":"跟"},{"start":11205.99,"end":11207.99,"text":"大家立法院在討論的"},{"start":11207.99,"end":11209.99,"text":"安樂死"},{"start":11209.99,"end":11211.99,"text":"落差可能很大"},{"start":11212.2,"end":11214.2,"text":"然後都"},{"start":11214.2,"end":11216.2,"text":"不管哪一種嚴謹的"},{"start":11216.2,"end":11218.2,"text":"限縮的,或是比較寬鬆的"},{"start":11218.2,"end":11220.2,"text":"都還必須要有一個叫做"},{"start":11220.2,"end":11222.2,"text":"痛苦難耐"},{"start":11222.2,"end":11224.2,"text":"痛苦難耐指涉的是什麼"},{"start":11224.2,"end":11226.2,"text":"痛苦到難以忍受"},{"start":11226.2,"end":11228.2,"text":"指涉的是什麼"},{"start":11228.2,"end":11230.2,"text":"所以我們來問你"},{"start":11230.2,"end":11232.2,"text":"我今天在問你就是說"},{"start":11232.2,"end":11234.2,"text":"你雖然在講公投,但答非所問"},{"start":11234.2,"end":11236.2,"text":"我問你的是"},{"start":11236.2,"end":11238.2,"text":"你支持哪一種模式"},{"start":11238.2,"end":11240.2,"text":"或者是你對痛苦到"},{"start":11240.2,"end":11242.2,"text":"難以忍受你認為"},{"start":11242.2,"end":11244.2,"text":"在醫療上的"},{"start":11244.2,"end":11246.2,"text":"或是在法律上的"},{"start":11246.2,"end":11248.2,"text":"或者是在社會心理層次上的"},{"start":11250.05,"end":11252.05,"text":"他指涉的是什麼東西"},{"start":11253.31,"end":11255.31,"text":"這個跟我們說我們在"},{"start":11255.31,"end":11257.31,"text":"啟動這個安樂死的時候"},{"start":11257.31,"end":11259.31,"text":"我相信你review了"},{"start":11259.31,"end":11261.31,"text":"很多的報導跟報告"},{"start":11261.31,"end":11263.31,"text":"那中間有一個"},{"start":11263.31,"end":11265.31,"text":"很重要的關鍵叫做"},{"start":11265.31,"end":11267.31,"text":"滑坡效應"},{"start":11267.31,"end":11269.31,"text":"就是一旦你啟動了這個安樂死之後"},{"start":11269.31,"end":11271.31,"text":"就好像那個潘朵拉的"},{"start":11271.31,"end":11273.31,"text":"盒子打開"},{"start":11273.31,"end":11275.31,"text":"你要很小心,因為他後面"},{"start":11275.31,"end":11277.31,"text":"會有滑坡效應"},{"start":11277.31,"end":11279.31,"text":"那麼從現在開始討論"},{"start":11279.31,"end":11281.31,"text":"是從這個生命末期"},{"start":11281.31,"end":11283.31,"text":"到痛苦難耐"},{"start":11283.31,"end":11285.31,"text":"精神疾病要不要"},{"start":11286.52,"end":11288.52,"text":"精神的鑑定要不要"},{"start":11288.52,"end":11290.52,"text":"這些都是會一連串"},{"start":11290.52,"end":11292.52,"text":"會滾動的"},{"start":11292.52,"end":11294.52,"text":"所以像加拿大也是"},{"start":11294.52,"end":11296.52,"text":"你講這個就是在講加拿大"},{"start":11296.52,"end":11298.52,"text":"加拿大又從嚴謹的末期"},{"start":11298.52,"end":11300.52,"text":"剩下六個月"},{"start":11300.52,"end":11302.52,"text":"然後你說他開放到"},{"start":11302.52,"end":11304.52,"text":"更寬鬆"},{"start":11304.52,"end":11306.52,"text":"然後他現在又往回退了"},{"start":11306.52,"end":11308.52,"text":"那你稱這個叫做滑坡效應"},{"start":11308.52,"end":11310.52,"text":"如果從我作為一個"},{"start":11310.52,"end":11312.52,"text":"民意代表的角度來看"},{"start":11312.52,"end":11314.52,"text":"搞不好我的理解是"},{"start":11314.52,"end":11316.52,"text":"這是民意所向"},{"start":11318.19,"end":11320.19,"text":"人民想要呢"},{"start":11320.19,"end":11322.19,"text":"那也是人民想要"},{"start":11322.19,"end":11324.19,"text":"但民意會改變的"},{"start":11324.19,"end":11326.19,"text":"我知道人民的民意會改變"},{"start":11328.25,"end":11330.25,"text":"但是就是說你一下子說"},{"start":11330.25,"end":11332.25,"text":"我們要放寬"},{"start":11332.25,"end":11334.25,"text":"那生命就這樣子"},{"start":11334.61,"end":11336.61,"text":"寬鬆的就可以選擇死亡了"},{"start":11336.61,"end":11338.61,"text":"那一下子又限說"},{"start":11339.81,"end":11341.81,"text":"其實也是整體社會上"},{"start":11341.81,"end":11343.81,"text":"一個這種光是這樣的"},{"start":11343.81,"end":11345.81,"text":"放寬限說放寬限說"},{"start":11345.81,"end":11347.81,"text":"就是一個爭議了"},{"start":11347.81,"end":11349.81,"text":"我們知道這是一個高度的爭議"},{"start":11349.81,"end":11351.81,"text":"但是就是說"},{"start":11351.81,"end":11353.81,"text":"如果我們台灣要討論安樂死"},{"start":11353.81,"end":11355.81,"text":"或是我們真的要坐下來"},{"start":11355.81,"end":11357.81,"text":"審這個安樂死的法案"},{"start":11357.81,"end":11359.81,"text":"我們在這裡不就是要討論這個嗎"},{"start":11359.81,"end":11361.81,"text":"可是這個打理是這幾個立委"},{"start":11361.81,"end":11363.81,"text":"有能力討論的"},{"start":11363.81,"end":11365.81,"text":"正因為沒有能力討論"},{"start":11365.81,"end":11367.81,"text":"然後你說大家直接來投"},{"start":11367.81,"end":11369.81,"text":"投票投票同意反對"},{"start":11369.81,"end":11371.81,"text":"支持反對贊成反對"},{"start":11371.18,"end":11373.18,"text":"這也是不負責任"},{"start":11373.18,"end":11375.18,"text":"因為大家想像的到底是什麼"},{"start":11375.18,"end":11377.18,"text":"不一樣"},{"start":11377.07,"end":11379.07,"text":"你直接要把這一條界線"},{"start":11379.07,"end":11381.07,"text":"劃在哪裡"},{"start":11381.44,"end":11383.44,"text":"我聽你的想法是"},{"start":11383.44,"end":11385.44,"text":"你大概就擔憂的更多"},{"start":11385.44,"end":11387.44,"text":"但我告訴過你"},{"start":11387.44,"end":11389.44,"text":"就是說我個人是支持的"},{"start":11389.44,"end":11391.44,"text":"譬如說是這樣子"},{"start":11391.44,"end":11393.44,"text":"我們在想包括提案的委員和政黨"},{"start":11393.44,"end":11395.44,"text":"也都是支持的"},{"start":11395.44,"end":11397.44,"text":"很多人民也是支持的"},{"start":11397.44,"end":11399.44,"text":"但我們支持的概念"},{"start":11399.44,"end":11401.44,"text":"都不見得相同"},{"start":11401.44,"end":11403.44,"text":"那一條界線要劃在哪裡"},{"start":11403.44,"end":11405.44,"text":"要劃出來"},{"start":11405.44,"end":11407.44,"text":"才能寫在法律裡面"},{"start":11407.62,"end":11409.62,"text":"然後這個事情絕對"},{"start":11409.62,"end":11411.62,"text":"有一點重點"},{"start":11412.42,"end":11414.42,"text":"要劃在哪裡"},{"start":11414.42,"end":11418.42,"text":"絕對不能夠授權給衛福部去訂定"},{"start":11418.42,"end":11420.42,"text":"不能交給主管機關"},{"start":11420.42,"end":11424.42,"text":"日後以辦法或醫療指引去決定"},{"start":11424.42,"end":11426.42,"text":"現在民眾黨的版本"},{"start":11426.6,"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生活意義的感受上"},{"start":11642.03,"end":11644.03,"text":"這個是很重要的"},{"start":11644.03,"end":11646.03,"text":"可是這些資料"},{"start":11646.03,"end":11648.03,"text":"顯示安樂死制度所稱的"},{"start":11648.03,"end":11650.03,"text":"無法忍受的痛苦"},{"start":11650.03,"end":11652.03,"text":"不是單一的醫學的症狀"},{"start":11652.03,"end":11654.03,"text":"包括了身體的症狀"},{"start":11654.03,"end":11656.03,"text":"包括了身體的症狀"},{"start":11656.03,"end":11658.03,"text":"功能的喪失以及病人對尊嚴自主"},{"start":11658.03,"end":11660.03,"text":"和生活意義的感受"},{"start":11660.03,"end":11662.03,"text":"醫生要評估"},{"start":11662.03,"end":11664.03,"text":"所謂醫學的症狀很容易"},{"start":11664.03,"end":11666.03,"text":"可是如果"},{"start":11666.03,"end":11668.03,"text":"我們要評估一個人"},{"start":11668.03,"end":11670.03,"text":"能不能接受安樂死"},{"start":11670.03,"end":11672.03,"text":"你叫他從醫學上的評估"},{"start":11672.03,"end":11674.03,"text":"然後要變成說"},{"start":11674.03,"end":11676.03,"text":"他變成"},{"start":11676.47,"end":11678.47,"text":"這個"},{"start":11678.8,"end":11680.8,"text":"到底是"},{"start":11680.8,"end":11682.8,"text":"功能上、喪失上、尊嚴上、自主上"},{"start":11682.8,"end":11684.8,"text":"或生活意義的感受上的"},{"start":11684.8,"end":11686.8,"text":"痛苦的評估"},{"start":11686.8,"end":11688.8,"text":"這就很困難了"},{"start":11688.8,"end":11690.8,"text":"這很困難耶"},{"start":11690.73,"end":11692.73,"text":"但是"},{"start":11692.28,"end":11694.28,"text":"很多人"},{"start":11693.73,"end":11695.73,"text":"他沒有無法控制的疼痛"},{"start":11695.73,"end":11697.73,"text":"卻說"},{"start":11697.73,"end":11699.73,"text":"包括我自己"},{"start":11699.73,"end":11701.73,"text":"或者是很多支持安樂死的台灣的人民"},{"start":11701.73,"end":11703.73,"text":"都會講說"},{"start":11703.73,"end":11705.73,"text":"我無法接受別人替我洗澡"},{"start":11705.73,"end":11707.73,"text":"替我餵食"},{"start":11707.73,"end":11709.73,"text":"替我清理排泄物"},{"start":11709.91,"end":11711.91,"text":"沒有尊嚴"},{"start":11711.91,"end":11713.91,"text":"失去自主"},{"start":11713.91,"end":11715.91,"text":"我沒有辦法接受我的身體"},{"start":11715.91,"end":11717.91,"text":"全部都不聽我使喚"},{"start":11717.69,"end":11719.69,"text":"那這就不只是疾病造成的痛苦"},{"start":11719.69,"end":11721.69,"text":"這也是對"},{"start":11721.69,"end":11725.69,"text":"依賴別人而活的價值的判斷"},{"start":11725.69,"end":11727.69,"text":"那這種感受能不能成為"},{"start":11727.69,"end":11729.69,"text":"安樂死的深情的理由"},{"start":11729.69,"end":11731.69,"text":"我想大多數人"},{"start":11731.69,"end":11733.69,"text":"支持安樂死"},{"start":11733.69,"end":11735.69,"text":"可能都是來自於這一種"},{"start":11735.69,"end":11737.69,"text":"失去對自我身體的控制"},{"start":11737.69,"end":11739.69,"text":"全部依賴他人"},{"start":11739.69,"end":11741.69,"text":"毫無尊嚴"},{"start":11743.39,"end":11745.39,"text":"可能是這樣子的強烈的這一種"},{"start":11747.36,"end":11749.36,"text":"這種感受在支撐我們"},{"start":11749.36,"end":11751.36,"text":"全部都支持安樂死"},{"start":11751.36,"end":11753.36,"text":"可是你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":11753.55,"end":11755.55,"text":"在外國"},{"start":11755.55,"end":11757.55,"text":"或者是現在的法律裡"},{"start":11757.55,"end":11759.55,"text":"架構草案裡面"},{"start":11759.9,"end":11761.9,"text":"這樣子就可以構成安樂死的條件嗎"},{"start":11761.9,"end":11763.9,"text":"在外國"},{"start":11763.9,"end":11765.9,"text":"或是在我們兩個草案裡面"},{"start":11765.9,"end":11767.9,"text":"這個案子"},{"start":11767.9,"end":11769.9,"text":"在加拿大發生過爭議"},{"start":11769.9,"end":11771.9,"text":"就是這個"},{"start":11771.9,"end":11773.9,"text":"就是您提的這個案子"},{"start":11773.9,"end":11775.9,"text":"他沒有辦法生活自理"},{"start":11775.9,"end":11777.9,"text":"所以他申請安樂死"},{"start":11777.9,"end":11779.9,"text":"對 就是這個案例"},{"start":11779.9,"end":11781.9,"text":"然後這個案例到"},{"start":11781.9,"end":11783.9,"text":"最後是被駁回"},{"start":11784.92,"end":11786.92,"text":"因為他本來是"},{"start":11786.92,"end":11788.92,"text":"有一個社會的"},{"start":11788.92,"end":11790.92,"text":"那個社福的支持"},{"start":11790.92,"end":11792.92,"text":"後來因為重新評估條件"},{"start":11792.92,"end":11794.92,"text":"說他的社會支持給他減少"},{"start":11794.92,"end":11796.92,"text":"他因而提出"},{"start":11796.92,"end":11798.92,"text":"所以有社會支持"},{"start":11798.92,"end":11800.92,"text":"有照顧的服務進來"},{"start":11800.92,"end":11802.92,"text":"或許他就不會那麼高度的"},{"start":11802.92,"end":11804.92,"text":"想要死"},{"start":11804.92,"end":11806.92,"text":"所以我們在這裡就是說"},{"start":11806.92,"end":11808.92,"text":"痛苦本來就是一種高度"},{"start":11808.92,"end":11810.92,"text":"主觀的感覺"},{"start":11810.92,"end":11812.92,"text":"那一般外人"},{"start":11812.92,"end":11814.92,"text":"你很難輕率地告訴病人說"},{"start":11814.92,"end":11816.92,"text":"你承受的痛苦並不嚴重"},{"start":11816.92,"end":11818.92,"text":"因為痛不痛苦是當事人最知道"},{"start":11818.92,"end":11820.92,"text":"你的痛苦"},{"start":11820.92,"end":11822.92,"text":"不一定跟我的痛苦是一樣的"},{"start":11822.92,"end":11824.92,"text":"但是就是另一方面"},{"start":11824.92,"end":11826.92,"text":"我們要考慮"},{"start":11826.92,"end":11828.92,"text":"只要本人認為某種生活狀態"},{"start":11828.92,"end":11830.92,"text":"已經不能接受了"},{"start":11830.92,"end":11832.92,"text":"然後醫生就可能被要求"},{"start":11832.92,"end":11834.92,"text":"要認定他的痛苦"},{"start":11834.92,"end":11836.92,"text":"已經達到可以合法終止"},{"start":11836.92,"end":11838.92,"text":"他生命的程度嗎"},{"start":11838.92,"end":11840.92,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":11840.34,"end":11842.34,"text":"這個叫醫生也真的很困難"},{"start":11842.34,"end":11844.34,"text":"真的很困難"},{"start":11844.34,"end":11846.34,"text":"不是只有單純的醫療專業的判斷而已"},{"start":11846.34,"end":11848.34,"text":"剛剛我們提到"},{"start":11848.34,"end":11850.34,"text":"是不是已經沒有其他的方式"},{"start":11850.34,"end":11852.34,"text":"因為有一個很重要的條件就是"},{"start":11852.34,"end":11854.34,"text":"沒有其他的方式"},{"start":11854.34,"end":11856.34,"text":"可以緩解他的痛苦"},{"start":11856.34,"end":11858.34,"text":"解決他的痛苦"},{"start":11858.34,"end":11860.34,"text":"才會多度痛苦"},{"start":11860.34,"end":11862.34,"text":"到底什麼的痛苦是生理上病理上的"},{"start":11862.34,"end":11864.34,"text":"還是我們剛剛講失去尊嚴"},{"start":11864.34,"end":11866.34,"text":"完全失能完全依賴他人"},{"start":11866.34,"end":11868.34,"text":"然後這一種"},{"start":11868.34,"end":11870.34,"text":"就是說"},{"start":11870.34,"end":11872.34,"text":"還要被剝奪了照顧以後"},{"start":11872.34,"end":11874.34,"text":"我就變成痛苦"},{"start":11874.34,"end":11876.34,"text":"國家資源給我剝奪減少了"},{"start":11876.34,"end":11878.34,"text":"我也覺得很痛苦"},{"start":11878.34,"end":11880.34,"text":"這樣子就可以合法終止生命嗎"},{"start":11880.34,"end":11882.34,"text":"所以我們的法律的架構"},{"start":11882.34,"end":11884.34,"text":"我看到寬鬆的版本"},{"start":11884.34,"end":11886.34,"text":"就是以無法忍受的痛苦"},{"start":11886.34,"end":11888.34,"text":"和現在醫療無法解決"},{"start":11888.34,"end":11890.34,"text":"就作為安樂死的資格的話"},{"start":11890.34,"end":11892.34,"text":"這個恐怕也是"},{"start":11892.99,"end":11894.99,"text":"大家倫理上要大家一起討論"},{"start":11894.99,"end":11896.99,"text":"因為我簡單的講"},{"start":11896.99,"end":11898.99,"text":"中風啊大多數的中風"},{"start":11898.99,"end":11900.99,"text":"而且是"},{"start":11900.91,"end":11902.91,"text":"全身癱瘓的那種中風啦"},{"start":11904.18,"end":11906.18,"text":"他有辦法現在醫療可以回復嗎"},{"start":11906.18,"end":11908.18,"text":"可能不行"},{"start":11908.53,"end":11910.53,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":11910.53,"end":11912.53,"text":"他是完全失能"},{"start":11912.53,"end":11914.53,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":11914.53,"end":11916.53,"text":"他"},{"start":11915.27,"end":11917.27,"text":"個人也有人就覺得不痛苦"},{"start":11917.27,"end":11919.27,"text":"但也有很多人覺得這樣子"},{"start":11919.27,"end":11921.27,"text":"沒有意義的活著很痛苦"},{"start":11921.27,"end":11923.27,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":11923.27,"end":11925.27,"text":"這樣子就可以作為安樂死的資格嗎"},{"start":11925.95,"end":11927.95,"text":"在外國可能是沒那麼容易"},{"start":11929.58,"end":11931.58,"text":"沒那麼容易"},{"start":11931.58,"end":11933.58,"text":"但我不知道提出這種"},{"start":11933.25,"end":11935.25,"text":"法案呢"},{"start":11934.64,"end":11936.64,"text":"政黨想的是什麼"},{"start":11936.64,"end":11938.64,"text":"但是我可以肯定的告訴你"},{"start":11938.64,"end":11940.64,"text":"很多人跟我想法一樣"},{"start":11940.64,"end":11942.64,"text":"只要這樣子我就想要死"},{"start":11944,"end":11946,"text":"但是恐怕法律"},{"start":11946,"end":11948,"text":"不敢這樣子定"},{"start":11948,"end":11950,"text":"因為醫生"},{"start":11950,"end":11952,"text":"也不想要扛起這樣的責任"},{"start":11952,"end":11954,"text":"扮演起上帝的角色"},{"start":11955.78,"end":11957.78,"text":"因為那個痛苦可能"},{"start":11957.78,"end":11959.78,"text":"生理上病理上的沒那麼大的痛苦"},{"start":11959.78,"end":11961.78,"text":"可是心理壓力的"},{"start":11961.78,"end":11963.78,"text":"尊嚴的"},{"start":11963.78,"end":11965.78,"text":"失去尊嚴的痛苦"},{"start":11965.78,"end":11967.78,"text":"有的人把尊嚴看得很重"},{"start":11967.78,"end":11969.78,"text":"有的人不一定把尊嚴看得那麼重"},{"start":11971.24,"end":11973.24,"text":"所以這樣子到底那條線"},{"start":11973.24,"end":11975.24,"text":"要劃在哪裡"},{"start":11975.24,"end":11977.24,"text":"我覺得我們今天就是一直要不斷的"},{"start":11977.24,"end":11979.24,"text":"來討論這個問題"},{"sta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d":12185.41,"text":"多少人是因為這樣子"},{"start":12188.54,"end":12190.54,"text":"真的那這個是"},{"start":12190.67,"end":12192.67,"text":"真正的自主嗎"},{"start":12193.26,"end":12195.26,"text":"這個是真正的自主嗎"},{"start":12197.11,"end":12199.11,"text":"加拿大衛生部2024年的"},{"start":12199.11,"end":12201.11,"text":"醫助死亡報告也指出"},{"start":12201.11,"end":12205.11,"text":"認為自己成為家人朋友或照顧者的負擔"},{"start":12205.11,"end":12207.11,"text":"是近半數"},{"start":12207.11,"end":12211.11,"text":"接受醫助死亡者被記錄的痛苦的來源"},{"start":12213.01,"end":12215.01,"text":"第一鬼的末期的快死的"},{"start":12215.01,"end":12217.01,"text":"也認為自己成為負擔的"},{"start":12217.01,"end":12219.01,"text":"有48.4%"},{"start":12219.01,"end":12221.01,"text":"第二鬼他還沒有末期"},{"start":12221.01,"end":12225.01,"text":"但是他還是有50%想要死"},{"start":12225.01,"end":12229.01,"text":"是因為怕自己成為家人的負擔"},{"start":12229.01,"end":12231.01,"text":"所以在這裡"},{"start":12231.52,"end":12235.52,"text":"真的這個負擔加上其他痛苦交織在一起"},{"start":12235.52,"end":12237.52,"text":"法律真正要確認的是什麼"},{"start":12237.52,"end":12239.52,"text":"我們在這裡立法"},{"start":12239.52,"end":12241.52,"text":"討論立法法律要真正確認的是"},{"start":12241.52,"end":12243.52,"text":"如果病人的疼痛獲得控制"},{"start":12243.52,"end":12245.52,"text":"所需要的長照"},{"start":12245.52,"end":12247.52,"text":"心理和經濟支持"},{"start":12247.52,"end":12249.52,"text":"已經實際提供"},{"start":12249.52,"end":12253.52,"text":"家人不必承擔超出能力的照顧工作與支出"},{"start":12253.52,"end":12259.52,"text":"他是否仍然會堅定的持續的希望結束生命呢"},{"start":12259.52,"end":12261.52,"text":"希望結束生命呢"},{"start":12262,"end":12264,"text":"但是我在這裡要跟你說"},{"start":12264,"end":12266,"text":"部長這個時候這件事"},{"start":12266,"end":12268,"text":"就跟國家的責任有關"},{"start":12268,"end":12270,"text":"因為很多人可能會說"},{"start":12270,"end":12272,"text":"我還是想要"},{"start":12272,"end":12274,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":12274,"end":12276,"text":"因為我不認為國家"},{"start":12276,"end":12280,"text":"會幫我們擔起這麼多的責任"},{"start":12280,"end":12282,"text":"有能力擔起這麼多的責任"},{"start":12282,"end":12286,"text":"我們也不認為少子女化以後"},{"start":12286,"end":12288,"text":"這個看護的責任會降低"},{"start":12289.99,"end":12291.99,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西真的是"},{"start":12294.48,"end":12296.48,"text":"我覺得時常在掙扎"},{"start":12296.48,"end":12300.48,"text":"因為我個人真的是高度的支持安樂死"},{"start":12300.59,"end":12302.59,"text":"但我也知道很多人"},{"start":12302.59,"end":12304.59,"text":"沒有這麼堅定"},{"start":12304.59,"end":12306.59,"text":"可是那些人"},{"start":12306.59,"end":12310.59,"text":"你要去期待照顧的體系進來"},{"start":12310.59,"end":12312.59,"text":"經濟的負擔減輕"},{"start":12312.59,"end":12314.59,"text":"然後家庭的看護的責任"},{"start":12314.59,"end":12316.59,"text":"不要那麼重"},{"start":12316.59,"end":12318.59,"text":"是不可期待的"},{"start":12318.59,"end":12320.59,"text":"是期待但是不可期待的"},{"start":12320.59,"end":12322.59,"text":"所以在這裡我再講一次"},{"start":12322.59,"end":12324.59,"text":"最後我要講到很多很長的時間"},{"start":12324.59,"end":12328.59,"text":"就是說當死亡成為合法的選項"},{"start":12328.59,"end":12330.59,"text":"那他真的要如何去確認"},{"start":12330.59,"end":12334.59,"text":"病人是不是還有其他的選擇"},{"start":12334.59,"end":12336.59,"text":"這個事情很重要"},{"start":12336.59,"end":12338.59,"text":"因為只要安樂死合法化以後"},{"start":12338.59,"end":12340.59,"text":"不是增加一個選項而已"},{"start":12340.59,"end":12344.59,"text":"他會改變整體這個社會裡面"},{"start":12344.59,"end":12346.59,"text":"所有高齡者、失能者"},{"start":12346.59,"end":12348.59,"text":"長期依賴照顧者"},{"start":12348.59,"end":12350.59,"text":"他如何去看待自己"},{"start":12350.59,"end":12352.59,"text":"要不要活著"},{"start":12352.59,"end":12354.59,"text":"要不要存在"},{"start":12355.96,"end":12357.96,"text":"當死亡成為合法的選項的時候"},{"start":12357.96,"end":12360.96,"text":"國家要必須避免任何人"},{"start":12360.96,"end":12362.96,"text":"因為需要他人照顧"},{"start":12362.96,"end":12366.96,"text":"而逐漸覺得自己必須向家人或社會解釋"},{"start":12366.96,"end":12369.96,"text":"為什麼還想要繼續活下去"},{"start":12373.42,"end":12377.42,"text":"告訴自己說不要成為家人的累贅"},{"start":12377.42,"end":12379.42,"text":"不要帶著愧疚、內疚這樣活著"},{"start":12381.3,"end":12383.3,"text":"所以我的個人"},{"start":12384.31,"end":12386.31,"text":"的想法"},{"start":12386.31,"end":12388.31,"text":"跟這個社會很多人的想法"},{"start":12388.31,"end":12390.31,"text":"都是說我再說一次"},{"start":12390.31,"end":12392.31,"text":"我們支持安樂死"},{"start":12392.31,"end":12394.31,"text":"但是安樂死我們想像的"},{"start":12394.31,"end":12398.31,"text":"跟立法者所定的不會一樣"},{"start":12398.31,"end":12400.31,"text":"不見得會一樣"},{"start":12400.05,"end":12401.05,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":12401.05,"end":12403.05,"text":"我還是認為"},{"start":12402.99,"end":12405.99,"text":"照顧的處境和社會的處境"},{"start":12405.99,"end":12408.99,"text":"家庭的關係、經濟的要件"},{"start":12408.99,"end":12411.99,"text":"一定要充分地審視這一些要件"},{"start":12411.99,"end":12414.99,"text":"要確認自主的意願"},{"start":12414.99,"end":12416.99,"text":"不是被迫的"},{"start":12416.99,"end":12418.99,"text":"是真的自主"},{"start":12418.99,"end":12420.99,"text":"可是這真的很難"},{"start":12420.99,"end":12422.99,"text":"而且還要有"},{"start":12422.99,"end":12424.99,"text":"這個是真正的自主的選擇"},{"start":12424.99,"end":12427.99,"text":"到底是不是還是被迫的"},{"start":12427.99,"end":12429.99,"text":"這真的是很難的"},{"start":12429.99,"end":12431.99,"text":"這個在已經施行的國家"},{"start":12431.99,"end":12434.99,"text":"就是台灣現在要社會高度的對話的時候"},{"start":12434.99,"end":12437.99,"text":"我們都應該要仔細地想"},{"start":12437.99,"end":12440.99,"text":"而不是只是公投支持反對"},{"start":12440.99,"end":12442.99,"text":"這是不負責任的"},{"start":12443.77,"end":12445.77,"text":"柏惕,安樂你覺得呢?"},{"start":12446.02,"end":12447.02,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12447.02,"end":12448.02,"text":"不是支持或反對"},{"start":12448.02,"end":12449.02,"text":"給了我們"},{"start":12449.02,"end":12451.02,"text":"你知道國家的責任很沉重"},{"start":12451.02,"end":12453.02,"text":"因為被迫選擇"},{"start":12453.02,"end":12456.02,"text":"這個裡面有一大部分是來自於國家"},{"start":12456.02,"end":12459.02,"text":"要進場、有責任"},{"start":12459.02,"end":12462.02,"text":"但是我也知道這個財政負擔"},{"start":12462.02,"end":12463.02,"text":"真的沒那麼容易"},{"start":12463.02,"end":12465.02,"text":"很難很難"},{"start":12466,"end":12468,"text":"但是你們到底"},{"start":12468.46,"end":12470.46,"text":"好吧,今天只是第一場"},{"start":12470.46,"end":12471.46,"text":"我們不希望"},{"start":12472.14,"end":12474.14,"text":"不期待會有直接有答案"},{"start":12475.55,"end":12477.55,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12478.1,"end":12480.1,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":12480.1,"end":12482.1,"text":"接下來請圖權及委員發言"},{"start":12490.52,"end":12491.52,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":12491.52,"end":12493.52,"text":"麻煩請時部長"},{"start":12497.64,"end":12498.64,"text":"圖員好"},{"start":12499.55,"end":12503.55,"text":"部長,那針對我們中聯、泰山、福壽、福茂"},{"start":12503.55,"end":12507.55,"text":"那這些都是我們應辦理檢驗之食品業者"},{"start":12507.55,"end":12511.55,"text":"富表二裡面中的食油、食用油脂的類別"},{"start":12511.55,"end":12513.55,"text":"那也就是它應辦場燈"},{"start":12513.55,"end":12516.55,"text":"而且是資本的三千萬以上"},{"start":12516.55,"end":12519.55,"text":"這之前我們質詢都有提過"},{"start":12519.55,"end":12520.55,"text":"那針對他們這些"},{"start":12520.55,"end":12524.55,"text":"我們應該針對它的原料、半成品跟成品"},{"start":12524.55,"end":12528.55,"text":"我們每半年或者每批都至少要檢驗一次"},{"start":12528.55,"end":12530.55,"text":"這之前也都講過"},{"start":12532.18,"end":12536.18,"text":"我在7月13號的時候有向你們所知"},{"start":12536.18,"end":12540.18,"text":"要詢問我們114年跟115年"},{"start":12540.18,"end":12542.18,"text":"中聯、泰山、福壽、福茂"},{"start":12542.18,"end":12544.18,"text":"它內部自主檢驗"},{"start":12544.18,"end":12546.18,"text":"還有外部檢驗"},{"start":12546.18,"end":12550.18,"text":"還有它的次數跟檢驗項目"},{"start":12550.18,"end":12551.18,"text":"這些的資料"},{"start":12551.18,"end":12555.18,"text":"那上週也跟部長來詢問這部分"},{"start":12555.18,"end":12557.18,"text":"我說所知一直沒拿到"},{"start":12557.18,"end":12559.18,"text":"那部長也說會後要提供"},{"start":12560.18,"end":12563.18,"text":"可是我們到現在還是沒有拿到你們的資料"},{"start":12563.18,"end":12566.18,"text":"我不知道這資料提供有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":12566.18,"end":12569.18,"text":"而且部長也說這個資料沒有問題"},{"start":12569.18,"end":12571.18,"text":"可以公開可以所知"},{"start":12571.18,"end":12572.18,"text":"應該沒有問題"},{"start":12572.18,"end":12575.18,"text":"這個都是依法他們就要執行的"},{"start":12575.18,"end":12578.18,"text":"所以我不知道7月13號拿不到"},{"start":12578.18,"end":12581.18,"text":"後來執行部長也說會後就提供"},{"start":12582.15,"end":12584.15,"text":"我們就認為這個"},{"start":12584.65,"end":12587.65,"text":"它到底這半年的檢驗到底有沒有在做"},{"start":12588.71,"end":12590.71,"text":"好"},{"start":12589.46,"end":12590.46,"text":"我們吹一下"},{"start":12590.46,"end":12594.46,"text":"因為這個是我們中區我們來吹"},{"start":12594.46,"end":12596.46,"text":"那我請問一下它到底有沒有做"},{"start":12598.38,"end":12601.38,"text":"從我們這一次的查場的紀錄"},{"start":12601.38,"end":12602.38,"text":"它是有做"},{"start":12602.38,"end":12603.38,"text":"是有做"},{"start":12603.38,"end":12605.38,"text":"我們的查場可以看得到"},{"start":12605.38,"end":12610.38,"text":"它是就它的這個批次的部分"},{"start":12610.38,"end":12613.38,"text":"它是有做到按計"},{"start":12613.38,"end":12617.38,"text":"但是那個抽樣的方式"},{"start":12617.38,"end":12619.38,"text":"它不是每一槽都抽"},{"start":12619.38,"end":12621.38,"text":"它有它的抽樣"},{"start":12621.38,"end":12623.38,"text":"不過那個報告都可以提供"},{"start":12623.38,"end":12624.38,"text":"沒有問題才對"},{"start":12624.38,"end":12626.38,"text":"我了解一下為什麼還沒有辦法給委員"},{"start":12626.38,"end":12627.38,"text":"所以我一直就"},{"start":12627.38,"end":12629.38,"text":"抱歉我一直就很納悶"},{"start":12629.38,"end":12630.38,"text":"這到底有什麼困難點"},{"start":12630.38,"end":12632.38,"text":"所以我們就懷疑這到底有沒有在做"},{"start":12632.38,"end":12633.38,"text":"應該是沒有問題"},{"start":12633.38,"end":12636.38,"text":"我來了解一下為什麼到現在還沒有辦法提供給委員"},{"start":12636.38,"end":12637.38,"text":"我會來追究這個"},{"start":12637.38,"end":12639.38,"text":"所以就部長了解"},{"start":12639.38,"end":12641.38,"text":"他都有按照規定"},{"start":12641.38,"end":12645.38,"text":"他每批然後這些半年自主檢驗跟外部檢驗"},{"start":12645.38,"end":12646.38,"text":"這些都有在做"},{"start":12646.38,"end":12648.38,"text":"他有自主檢驗是沒有錯"},{"start":12648.38,"end":12651.38,"text":"只是那個檢驗的抽樣方式"},{"start":12651.38,"end":12652.38,"text":"我們覺得要改進了"},{"start":12652.38,"end":12655.38,"text":"那我們不是這個外部檢驗也是半年要做一次嗎"},{"start":12655.38,"end":12656.38,"text":"對對對"},{"start":12656.38,"end":12659.38,"text":"那所以這些應該都有資料"},{"start":12659.38,"end":12664.38,"text":"就是說他雖然有依法他要自設實驗室沒有問題"},{"start":12664.38,"end":12665.38,"text":"他設了"},{"start":12665.38,"end":12669.38,"text":"可是他的實驗室並沒有辦法自行檢驗BAP"},{"start":12670.93,"end":12672.93,"text":"所以他這個是外送的"},{"start":12673.46,"end":12677.46,"text":"所以他自主檢驗的部分都有按照規定都有在做"},{"start":12677.46,"end":12681.46,"text":"然後而且照你們說的他做出來都是合格的"},{"start":12681.46,"end":12682.46,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":12683.98,"end":12686.98,"text":"就是我們因為他只有半年"},{"start":12686.98,"end":12688.98,"text":"他半年做一次而已"},{"start":12688.98,"end":12691.98,"text":"所以那個跟我們這次調查"},{"start":12691.98,"end":12696.98,"text":"因為他是某一某一船某一個原料的問題比較大"},{"start":12696.98,"end":12698.98,"text":"所以他就沒有做到那一"},{"start":12699.6,"end":12700.6,"text":"那我請問部長"},{"start":12700.6,"end":12702.6,"text":"因為我們最後拿到他"},{"start":12702.6,"end":12704.6,"text":"因為依法還要存留樣本"},{"start":12704.6,"end":12707.6,"text":"他的這些需要每一批要存留樣本"},{"start":12707.6,"end":12711.6,"text":"那最後我們把他存留的樣本去驗都是合格的"},{"start":12711.6,"end":12716.6,"text":"跟我們最後從下游出貨的這個原油去驗出來不一致"},{"start":12716.6,"end":12720.6,"text":"所以我們才會這個案子通通送給檢調"},{"start":12720.6,"end":12723.6,"text":"所以我們了解他這個"},{"start":12723.6,"end":12727.6,"text":"所以部長剛剛講他這一些不是單就這一批"},{"start":12727.6,"end":12730.6,"text":"因為這個是我們食安法的規定"},{"start":12730.6,"end":12731.6,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12731.6,"end":12733.6,"text":"那都有按照規定去做"},{"start":12733.6,"end":12737.6,"text":"我們衛福部食藥署都有按照規定去監督嗎"},{"start":12737.6,"end":12740.6,"text":"因為這個是地方去查核的"},{"start":12740.6,"end":12742.6,"text":"就是他們每年去查核"},{"start":12742.6,"end":12743.6,"text":"有沒有按照這樣做"},{"start":12743.6,"end":12746.6,"text":"這個是由地方去執行"},{"start":12746.6,"end":12748.6,"text":"那他資料是提供給衛福部"},{"start":12748.6,"end":12749.6,"text":"不是"},{"start":12749.6,"end":12751.6,"text":"他是存藏"},{"start":12751.6,"end":12756.6,"text":"那所以我們衛福部掌握的資料就是說他都有在做"},{"start":12756.6,"end":12760.6,"text":"而且照他做的出來的都是合格的"},{"start":12760.6,"end":12763.6,"text":"應該是說他是由地方去查核"},{"start":12763.6,"end":12764.6,"text":"他有沒有照這樣做"},{"start":12764.6,"end":12766.6,"text":"那有問題就要處理"},{"start":12766.6,"end":12771.6,"text":"所以這個當然以今年我們調查到的報告來講"},{"start":12771.6,"end":12774.6,"text":"當然他的報告是合格的"},{"start":12774.6,"end":12777.6,"text":"但是我們測出來是有問題"},{"start":12777.6,"end":12779.6,"text":"所以我的重點就在那邊"},{"start":12779.6,"end":12784.6,"text":"第一就是部長這邊所得到的訊息就是他有按照規定在做"},{"start":12784.6,"end":12788.6,"text":"然後他所提出來的報告也都是合格的"},{"start":12789.46,"end":12792.46,"text":"應該是這樣講就是說除了他自己提的"},{"start":12792.46,"end":12798.46,"text":"那麼我們地方政府也有積核的這個責任"},{"start":12798.46,"end":12800.46,"text":"去積核他照這樣做之外"},{"start":12800.46,"end":12802.46,"text":"那麼有沒有正確"},{"start":12802.46,"end":12807.46,"text":"這些也都是應該要在積核的過程裡面一定要去考慮的"},{"start":12807.46,"end":12809.46,"text":"所以我們一直就沒有辦法理解"},{"start":12809.46,"end":12811.46,"text":"如果這資料都沒問題"},{"start":12811.46,"end":12814.46,"text":"為什麼從7月13號就要不到"},{"start":12814.46,"end":12815.46,"text":"上次質詢完以後"},{"start":12815.46,"end":12817.46,"text":"部長也自己說會後馬上提供"},{"start":12817.46,"end":12820.46,"text":"一直到這個禮拜也都沒有看到資料"},{"start":12820.46,"end":12823.46,"text":"所以我們合理懷疑這到底有沒有在做"},{"start":12823.46,"end":12824.46,"text":"我們到底有沒有監督"},{"start":12824.46,"end":12827.46,"text":"那他做出來的到底是合不合格的"},{"start":12827.46,"end":12830.46,"text":"這對我們來講到現在都還是一個謎團"},{"start":12832.73,"end":12837.73,"text":"好 那個我們今天下班前就提供給委員"},{"start":12837.73,"end":12839.73,"text":"那個資料沒有問題 可以提供"},{"start":12839.73,"end":12842.73,"text":"所以剛剛部長也有提到"},{"start":12842.73,"end":12845.73,"text":"像中聯這種他本身都有設立實驗室"},{"start":12846.99,"end":12848.99,"text":"按照規定也是要設"},{"start":12848.99,"end":12849.99,"text":"那所以"},{"start":12851.1,"end":12856.1,"text":"他本身這個實驗室是並沒有驗這個一級致癌物本填比是嗎"},{"start":12856.1,"end":12857.1,"text":"他本身沒有能力驗"},{"start":12857.1,"end":12858.1,"text":"所以他是外送的"},{"start":12859.37,"end":12861.37,"text":"所以也沒有規定要驗嗎"},{"start":12861.37,"end":12869.37,"text":"要驗 但是我們過去只是要求到一定規模跟業者"},{"start":12869.37,"end":12870.37,"text":"那麼他要自設實驗室"},{"start":12870.37,"end":12874.37,"text":"但是沒有強制說他的實驗室能力到哪裡"},{"start":12874.37,"end":12877.37,"text":"所以我們這一次的修法裡面才會去說"},{"start":12877.37,"end":12882.37,"text":"這個自設實驗室的部分要經過主管機關的認證"},{"start":12882.37,"end":12883.37,"text":"那麼才可以"},{"start":12883.37,"end":12885.37,"text":"所以過去的法律裡面沒有"},{"start":12885.37,"end":12887.37,"text":"所以是用外部檢驗"},{"start":12887.37,"end":12890.37,"text":"那外部檢驗到底有沒有驗到"},{"start":12890.37,"end":12892.37,"text":"他外部檢驗他送的就是"},{"start":12892.37,"end":12895.37,"text":"他第一次送出去的是沒有"},{"start":12895.37,"end":12898.37,"text":"那後來這個南僑通報"},{"start":12898.37,"end":12900.37,"text":"那麼說有問題"},{"start":12900.37,"end":12902.37,"text":"然後他再去驗那才說有"},{"start":12902.37,"end":12903.37,"text":"所以現在是"},{"start":12904.43,"end":12906.43,"text":"他送那個時候沒有辮子"},{"start":12906.43,"end":12908.43,"text":"還是他送的檢體根本就是有問題"},{"start":12908.43,"end":12910.43,"text":"所以現在都有檢方在調查"},{"start":12911.16,"end":12913.16,"text":"所以"},{"start":12912.39,"end":12916.39,"text":"當時我們得到的訊息是合格的就對了"},{"start":12917.69,"end":12919.69,"text":"就是中聯送出去的"},{"start":12919.69,"end":12921.69,"text":"地方查核回來都是說他合格的"},{"start":12921.69,"end":12922.69,"text":"前面送都是合格嘛"},{"start":12922.69,"end":12924.69,"text":"最後是因為南僑爆發"},{"start":12924.69,"end":12926.69,"text":"在驗才知道是不合格的"},{"start":12927.45,"end":12929.45,"text":"對就是有不一致的情形"},{"start":12929.45,"end":12932.45,"text":"所以我們應該也是以後也是要要求"},{"start":12932.45,"end":12934.45,"text":"要驗這本扁平一級致癌物"},{"start":12934.45,"end":12936.45,"text":"對我們在修法裡面就是要求"},{"start":12936.45,"end":12938.45,"text":"他的實驗室他的認證"},{"start":12938.45,"end":12939.45,"text":"要經過認證"},{"start":12939.45,"end":12942.45,"text":"以前法裡面自設實驗室不需要認證"},{"start":12942.45,"end":12944.45,"text":"只有外部的實驗室需要認證"},{"start":12944.45,"end":12947.45,"text":"所以這個部分我們會在修法裡面去強化"},{"start":12947.45,"end":12950.45,"text":"好我們希望我們這個食安的資訊"},{"start":12950.45,"end":12952.45,"text":"真的要公開啦不能有黑箱"},{"start":12952.45,"end":12955.45,"text":"你看連我們要的兩次到現在都看不到"},{"start":12955.45,"end":12956.45,"text":"我們"},{"start":12957.36,"end":12959.36,"text":"我們都完全是公開了"},{"start":12959.36,"end":12961.36,"text":"這個黑箱的應該是業者啦"},{"start":12962.02,"end":12966.02,"text":"對啊你看我上週有詢問"},{"start":12966.02,"end":12970.02,"text":"我們在質詢的時候問非追不可這個系統"},{"start":12970.02,"end":12972.02,"text":"我們那時候截圖你們也跟我們說"},{"start":12972.02,"end":12974.02,"text":"我們走進去的系統是不對的"},{"start":12974.02,"end":12977.02,"text":"後來我們再次查驗我們這個系統就是"},{"start":12977.02,"end":12981.02,"text":"你們衛福部食藥署提供的系統啊"},{"start":12981.02,"end":12984.02,"text":"從首頁進去系統之後"},{"start":12984.02,"end":12988.02,"text":"消費者就可以從非追不可的系統上面"},{"start":12988.02,"end":12992.02,"text":"我們再清楚就可以查到是食品追溯管理系統"},{"start":12992.02,"end":12998.02,"text":"我們從消費者查詢點進去出現食品資訊專櫃"},{"start":12998.02,"end":13001.02,"text":"再點擊食用油脂製品"},{"start":13001.02,"end":13007.02,"text":"然後就會進入食藥署的食品追溯追蹤管理系統"},{"start":13007.02,"end":13011.02,"text":"可是我不知道為什麼上週你們回覆我說"},{"start":13011.02,"end":13013.02,"text":"我們這個系統是不對是不一樣的"},{"start":13013.02,"end":13015.02,"text":"明明就是一樣的啊"},{"start":13015.02,"end":13017.02,"text":"那為什麼你們說不一樣"},{"start":13017.02,"end":13019.02,"text":"重點是都沒有更新"},{"start":13019.02,"end":13021.02,"text":"那你說不同的系統我們再上去查"},{"start":13021.02,"end":13023.02,"text":"還是這個系統啊"},{"start":13024.56,"end":13027.56,"text":"我不知道為什麼你們部長你們說不是這個系統"},{"start":13028.56,"end":13030.56,"text":"因為我們有好幾個系統"},{"start":13031.31,"end":13037.31,"text":"這個是對對您現在所秀出來的這個才是追溯管理系統"},{"start":13037.31,"end":13039.31,"text":"跟剛剛那個是不一樣"},{"start":13039.31,"end":13041.31,"text":"這是兩個系統吧"},{"start":13041.31,"end":13043.31,"text":"對啊他是同一個啊"},{"start":13043.31,"end":13045.31,"text":"他是點擊進去啊"},{"start":13045.1,"end":13047.1,"text":"我跟委員說明一下好了"},{"start":13047.1,"end":13049.1,"text":"我們有兩個系統好幾個系統"},{"start":13049.1,"end":13053.1,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們這個非追系統的部分有兩個部分"},{"start":13053.1,"end":13058.1,"text":"一個是由業者依照我們法規規定要填報的非追的資料"},{"start":13058.1,"end":13064.1,"text":"那這個現在目前平台秀出來是業者自願揭露給消費者來做查詢的資料"},{"start":13064.1,"end":13066.1,"text":"所以兩個資料是不一樣的"},{"start":13066.83,"end":13067.83,"text":"水"},{"start":13068.82,"end":13071.82,"text":"所以他沒有公開讓民眾知道這些系統"},{"start":13071.82,"end":13073.82,"text":"他是可以不公開的什麼"},{"start":13073.82,"end":13076.82,"text":"因為兩個系統填報的資料不一樣"},{"start":13078.01,"end":13081.01,"text":"那這個系統不一定不就是要讓民眾知道嗎"},{"start":13081.01,"end":13085.01,"text":"那為什麼又要另外一個系統讓民眾知道"},{"start":13085.01,"end":13089.01,"text":"這個是消費資訊為主的資料是對給民眾的"},{"start":13089.01,"end":13095.01,"text":"那另外我們那個是管理在那個追蹤溯源的時候需要使用的"},{"start":13095.01,"end":13102.01,"text":"所以我們食藥署有一部分可能會包含到廠商的營業秘密"},{"start":13102.01,"end":13105.01,"text":"所以他沒有辦法完全對外揭露"},{"start":13105.01,"end":13107.01,"text":"好那這也是另外一個重點"},{"start":13107.01,"end":13111.01,"text":"所以我們廠商都有按照規定"},{"start":13111.01,"end":13114.01,"text":"都有上傳給我們食藥署這個系統"},{"start":13114.01,"end":13116.01,"text":"就算民眾這個我們查詢不到"},{"start":13116.01,"end":13119.01,"text":"那你表示你食藥署都有按規定監督"},{"start":13119.01,"end":13122.01,"text":"他所有這些系統資料都有更新"},{"start":13122.01,"end":13124.01,"text":"都有按照規定上傳"},{"start":13124.01,"end":13128.01,"text":"這是另外一個依法要求的要通報要上傳的"},{"start":13128.01,"end":13130.01,"text":"那因為這個我們也點不到"},{"start":13130.01,"end":13132.01,"text":"當然我們找不到民眾當然也找不到"},{"start":13132.01,"end":13137.01,"text":"因為那裡面還有一些商業秘密在依法的話"},{"start":13137.01,"end":13141.01,"text":"那我們可以知道他有固定上傳"},{"start":13141.01,"end":13144.01,"text":"他的日期都會按照規定上傳"},{"start":13144.01,"end":13146.01,"text":"半年半年都有上傳更新嗎"},{"start":13146.01,"end":13148.01,"text":"都可以查得到沒有錯"},{"start":13148.01,"end":13149.01,"text":"我們查不到啊"},{"start":13149.01,"end":13151.01,"text":"那個是內部啦"},{"start":13151.01,"end":13156.01,"text":"那可以提供讓我們知道他有按照規定上傳嗎"},{"start":13156.01,"end":13157.01,"text":"那個都有記錄"},{"start":13157.01,"end":13159.01,"text":"那是每個月要報的"},{"start":13159.01,"end":13161.01,"text":"那這個資料也可以一併提供給我們"},{"start":13161.01,"end":13165.01,"text":"確定他們有沒有按照規定去上傳"},{"start":13165.01,"end":13167.01,"text":"我們衛福部到底有沒有落實在監督"},{"start":13167.01,"end":13169.01,"text":"好 那個一疊"},{"start":13169.4,"end":13172.4,"text":"因為我們上去看到的部分"},{"start":13172.4,"end":13174.4,"text":"中聯就完全都沒有上傳"},{"start":13174.4,"end":13176.4,"text":"完全沒有資料上傳"},{"start":13176.4,"end":13179.4,"text":"然後福壽上傳到2024年的7月"},{"start":13179.4,"end":13181.4,"text":"因為中聯他沒有產品"},{"start":13182.56,"end":13185.56,"text":"中聯的有是提供給泰山福壽福茂"},{"start":13185.56,"end":13187.56,"text":"所以他本身沒有產品"},{"start":13187.56,"end":13190.56,"text":"所以在外部的系統裡面他不會有"},{"start":13190.56,"end":13196.56,"text":"好 所以我覺得那還是請部長一併連那些資料提供給我們"},{"start":13196.56,"end":13198.56,"text":"我們要掌握確定"},{"start":13198.56,"end":13201.56,"text":"我們確認一下因為申報的日期是OK"},{"start":13201.56,"end":13204.56,"text":"那如果有一些商業秘密的部分"},{"start":13204.56,"end":13207.56,"text":"沒關係啊 我們最主要是要知道他有沒有按照規定"},{"start":13207.56,"end":13210.56,"text":"我們衛福部申報的日期落實在監督"},{"start":13210.56,"end":13214.56,"text":"因為我們看到福茂他就是一直都有更新啊"},{"start":13214.56,"end":13217.56,"text":"跟南橋 南橋連自主檢驗外部檢驗"},{"start":13217.56,"end":13219.56,"text":"全部都有上傳"},{"start":13219.56,"end":13222.56,"text":"福茂也更新到2026年的6月"},{"start":13222.56,"end":13226.56,"text":"所以這部分我希望部長能夠給我們完整資料"},{"start":13226.56,"end":13230.56,"text":"我們一定要知道他有沒有按照食安法的規定去做"},{"start":13230.56,"end":13233.56,"text":"有沒有確定把資料落實上傳"},{"start":13233.56,"end":13235.56,"text":"然後我們衛福部有沒有好好的監督"},{"start":13235.56,"end":13237.56,"text":"因為我們現在擔心的點是"},{"start":13237.56,"end":13240.56,"text":"你看大豆沙拉油現在也出問題"},{"start":13240.56,"end":13242.56,"text":"現在連苦茶油也出問題"},{"start":13242.56,"end":13246.56,"text":"我們擔心是不是這個食安連環報"},{"start":13246.56,"end":13249.56,"text":"如果很多資料都沒有掌握"},{"start":13249.56,"end":13251.56,"text":"我們衛福部都沒有好好監督"},{"start":13251.56,"end":13255.56,"text":"我們擔心是不是還有其他更多的食安問題"},{"start":13255.56,"end":13257.56,"text":"接連要爆發"},{"start":13257.56,"end":13259.56,"text":"跟委員說明喔 我們這個重要的"},{"start":13259.56,"end":13261.56,"text":"這個最上游的四個廠商"},{"start":13261.56,"end":13263.56,"text":"其他商場我們都查了"},{"start":13263.56,"end":13265.56,"text":"他們都是符合標準的"},{"start":13265.56,"end":13268.56,"text":"所以目前這個是中聯的問題比較大"},{"start":13268.56,"end":13270.56,"text":"我希望部長除了這些以外"},{"start":13270.56,"end":13273.56,"text":"我們其他的全部都要嚴格的監督"},{"start":13273.56,"end":13277.56,"text":"那個我們廠商有沒有按照規定上傳資料訊息"},{"start":13277.56,"end":13279.56,"text":"然後我們有沒有落實監督"},{"start":13279.56,"end":13282.56,"text":"是不是全部按照食安法的規定"},{"start":13282.56,"end":13283.56,"text":"該設實驗室設實驗室"},{"start":13283.56,"end":13285.56,"text":"該自主檢驗該外部檢驗"},{"start":13285.56,"end":13287.56,"text":"該半年要查緝的"},{"start":13287.56,"end":13289.56,"text":"所有的資料該上傳一定要上傳"},{"start":13289.56,"end":13292.56,"text":"不然這個其他還有食安的問題"},{"start":13292.56,"end":13295.56,"text":"現在是民眾跟大家很擔憂"},{"start":13295.56,"end":13297.56,"text":"是不是還有很多還沒有爆發"},{"start":13297.56,"end":13300.56,"text":"甚至我們現在是不是也有吃到很多的"},{"start":13300.56,"end":13301.56,"text":"致癌物的東西"},{"start":13301.56,"end":13303.56,"text":"只是現在還不知道"},{"start":13303.56,"end":13305.56,"text":"我們跟中央地方一起"},{"start":13305.56,"end":13308.56,"text":"大家一起聯手來做你的承認食安"},{"start":13308.56,"end":13310.56,"text":"請部長大家多幫忙多加油"},{"start":13310.56,"end":13311.56,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":13312.6,"end":13314.6,"text":"好 謝謝主研區委員發言"},{"start":13314.6,"end":13319.6,"text":"待會兒如現已召委詢答完畢後"},{"start":13319.6,"end":13321.6,"text":"休息三十分鐘用餐"},{"start":13321.6,"end":13324.6,"text":"接下來請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":13330.22,"end":13332.22,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請部長"},{"start":13336.39,"end":13337.39,"text":"黃委員好"},{"start":13337.39,"end":13340.39,"text":"部長好 今天蠻多位委員"},{"start":13340.39,"end":13343.39,"text":"也關心食用油的事情"},{"start":13343.39,"end":13345.39,"text":"我希望就是說這個"},{"start":13345.39,"end":13347.39,"text":"不論是中央跟地方"},{"start":13347.39,"end":13349.39,"text":"就是都要負起責任"},{"start":13349.39,"end":13351.39,"text":"所以你們的權責是什麼"},{"start":13351.39,"end":13352.39,"text":"然後也要講清楚"},{"start":13352.39,"end":13355.39,"text":"因為不能這樣事事而非"},{"start":13355.39,"end":13358.39,"text":"有時候地方政府首長他們"},{"start":13359.31,"end":13360.31,"text":"會讓人家覺得說"},{"start":13360.31,"end":13363.31,"text":"原本那個權責是在這個地方政府"},{"start":13363.31,"end":13364.31,"text":"結果講一講好像覺得"},{"start":13364.31,"end":13366.31,"text":"全部責任都在中央"},{"start":13366.31,"end":13367.31,"text":"所以我希望就是說"},{"start":13367.31,"end":13369.31,"text":"衛福部食藥署針對這一部分"},{"start":13369.31,"end":13371.31,"text":"我覺得都要講清楚"},{"start":13371.31,"end":13373.31,"text":"另外就是說大家擔心的"},{"start":13373.31,"end":13376.31,"text":"現在架上面的在超市上面"},{"start":13376.31,"end":13377.31,"text":"在所有這個架"},{"start":13377.31,"end":13381.31,"text":"就是上架全部都是安全的"},{"start":13381.31,"end":13383.31,"text":"就是一定要再次的重申"},{"start":13383.31,"end":13386.31,"text":"在這個商品架上面的"},{"start":13386.31,"end":13388.31,"text":"所有的食用油都是安全的"},{"start":13388.31,"end":13390.31,"text":"民眾可以放心"},{"start":13390.31,"end":13392.31,"text":"當然就是說後面的這個"},{"start":13392.31,"end":13393.31,"text":"責任的歸屬"},{"start":13393.31,"end":13396.31,"text":"我覺得後面你們也要再去釐清"},{"start":13396.31,"end":13398.31,"text":"到底責任在誰那邊"},{"start":13398.31,"end":13401.31,"text":"那未來這種事情就不能再發生了"},{"start":13401.31,"end":13404.31,"text":"再來就是說也要透明化"},{"start":13404.31,"end":13406.31,"text":"讓民眾他可以去查詢"},{"start":13406.31,"end":13407.31,"text":"然後能夠更透明"},{"start":13407.31,"end":13409.31,"text":"我覺得這個應該是"},{"start":13409.31,"end":13412.31,"text":"衛福部食藥署這邊應該要做的"},{"start":13412.31,"end":13415.31,"text":"然後跟地方你們的權責是什麼"},{"start":13415.31,"end":13417.31,"text":"我覺得你們都要分清楚"},{"start":13417.31,"end":13420.31,"text":"不要像這一次地方推給中央說"},{"start":13420.31,"end":13422.31,"text":"就你們的責任"},{"start":13422.31,"end":13423.31,"text":"然後中央覺得說"},{"start":13423.31,"end":13426.31,"text":"這個後市場或者是這個茶廠"},{"start":13426.31,"end":13427.31,"text":"就是地方的責任"},{"start":13427.31,"end":13429.31,"text":"我覺得未來不能有這樣的"},{"start":13429.31,"end":13431.31,"text":"一個情形再發生"},{"start":13431.31,"end":13433.31,"text":"是好跟委員說明"},{"start":13433.31,"end":13435.31,"text":"這確實食安的把關"},{"start":13435.31,"end":13437.31,"text":"需要中央地方一起合作"},{"start":13437.31,"end":13442.31,"text":"那麼至於在地方權責這個稽查"},{"start":13442.31,"end":13446.31,"text":"或者是這個在調查等等的過程當中"},{"start":13446.31,"end":13448.31,"text":"如果有不足的地方"},{"start":13448.31,"end":13450.31,"text":"無力的地方"},{"start":13450.31,"end":13452.31,"text":"我們一定會全力來協助"},{"start":13452.31,"end":13453.31,"text":"所以都會按照這樣"},{"start":13453.31,"end":13456.31,"text":"那目前我們經過了完整的調查"},{"start":13456.31,"end":13459.31,"text":"我們也在昨天把這個調查報告也公開了"},{"start":13459.31,"end":13464.31,"text":"那麼也同時交給這個地方主管機關"},{"start":13464.31,"end":13467.31,"text":"再去督導這個業者改善"},{"start":13467.31,"end":13469.31,"text":"所以這個我們都做到"},{"start":13469.31,"end":13471.31,"text":"那目前在架上的油品"},{"start":13471.31,"end":13473.31,"text":"我們都確保它是安全"},{"start":13473.31,"end":13475.31,"text":"包含另外那三個廠"},{"start":13475.31,"end":13477.31,"text":"我們也都完成它的抽驗"},{"start":13477.31,"end":13479.31,"text":"那麼也都合格"},{"start":13479.31,"end":13483.31,"text":"好那當然就是說這個民眾都會非常擔心"},{"start":13483.31,"end":13485.31,"text":"所以如果部長這樣子講的話"},{"start":13485.31,"end":13488.31,"text":"我相信所有消費者應該會更安心"},{"start":13488.31,"end":13491.31,"text":"就是說在貨架上面的產品都是安全的"},{"start":13491.31,"end":13493.31,"text":"那接下來我想請教"},{"start":13493.31,"end":13496.31,"text":"因為這個安樂死的這個議題"},{"start":13496.31,"end":13500.31,"text":"從這個7月中旬在議場就是通過"},{"start":13500.31,"end":13502.31,"text":"就是這個安樂死的公投"},{"start":13502.31,"end":13504.31,"text":"就是說未來要公投"},{"start":13504.31,"end":13507.31,"text":"那像這樣子的話其實我不贊成"},{"start":13507.31,"end":13511.31,"text":"就是這個人的生或死"},{"start":13511.31,"end":13513.31,"text":"然後交給這個公投"},{"start":13513.31,"end":13515.31,"text":"其實我覺得這是非常不負責任的"},{"start":13515.31,"end":13517.31,"text":"可是我覺得可以討論"},{"start":13517.31,"end":13520.31,"text":"因為在我們在跑基層的時候"},{"start":13520.31,"end":13523.31,"text":"其實會有碰到有一些民眾確實"},{"start":13523.31,"end":13526.31,"text":"他可能這個市值癱瘓"},{"start":13526.31,"end":13529.31,"text":"那整個家裡面的經濟會因為這樣子"},{"start":13529.31,"end":13531.31,"text":"然後整個拖垮"},{"start":13531.31,"end":13534.31,"text":"那這個患者他本身他就會覺得說"},{"start":13534.31,"end":13536.31,"text":"那如果今天有安樂死的話"},{"start":13536.31,"end":13538.31,"text":"他會選擇安樂死"},{"start":13538.31,"end":13542.31,"text":"所以我希望就是說這個安樂死的這個議題"},{"start":13542.31,"end":13544.31,"text":"我覺得是可以討論"},{"start":13544.31,"end":13548.31,"text":"那接下來我想請教就刑法的這一部分"},{"start":13548.31,"end":13552.31,"text":"就是說這個我們憲法第15條就是說"},{"start":13552.31,"end":13554.31,"text":"保障人民的生存權"},{"start":13554.31,"end":13558.31,"text":"工作權財產權都是要給予保障"},{"start":13558.31,"end":13560.31,"text":"那像這樣子安樂死"},{"start":13560.31,"end":13564.31,"text":"就是說這個跟憲法的這個精神好像又有點抵觸"},{"start":13564.31,"end":13568.31,"text":"我不知道說未來這個法務部這邊"},{"start":13568.31,"end":13570.31,"text":"未來會怎麼去做解釋"},{"start":13570.31,"end":13573.31,"text":"那我也想請教部長"},{"start":13573.31,"end":13577.31,"text":"針對這個現在大家要討論的這個安樂死的這個議題"},{"start":13577.31,"end":13580.31,"text":"因為我今天也看到這個醫師公會"},{"start":13580.31,"end":13582.31,"text":"全聯會這邊是反對"},{"start":13582.31,"end":13586.31,"text":"那我不知道站在衛福部部長的這個立場"},{"start":13586.31,"end":13588.31,"text":"你的想法是什麼"},{"start":13588.31,"end":13590.31,"text":"我想這個尊嚴善忠"},{"start":13590.31,"end":13593.31,"text":"都是我們大家希望達到的目標"},{"start":13593.31,"end":13596.31,"text":"都是希望能夠讓民眾"},{"start":13596.31,"end":13601.31,"text":"在最後的生命的這個階段能夠圓滿"},{"start":13601.31,"end":13604.31,"text":"那麼安樂死這個議題的程度"},{"start":13604.31,"end":13606.31,"text":"這個範圍是很寬廣"},{"start":13606.31,"end":13610.31,"text":"如果真的要來講我們現在所施行的安寧緩和"},{"start":13610.31,"end":13612.31,"text":"那麼或者是病主法"},{"start":13612.31,"end":13613.31,"text":"在某種程度上"},{"start":13613.31,"end":13615.31,"text":"它也是一種比較消極的"},{"start":13615.31,"end":13619.31,"text":"比較被動式的那麼對生命的尊重"},{"start":13619.31,"end":13623.31,"text":"也是可以在這個安樂死的範圍裡面的一邊"},{"start":13623.31,"end":13627.31,"text":"它是比較這個嚴謹現說的"},{"start":13627.31,"end":13633.31,"text":"那到很積極的去以協助加工的方式"},{"start":13633.31,"end":13634.31,"text":"加速的方式"},{"start":13634.31,"end":13641.31,"text":"那這個當然就會有更多對生命法義上的討論"},{"start":13641.31,"end":13643.31,"text":"還有生命的價值等等"},{"start":13643.31,"end":13645.31,"text":"這些就會需要更多的討論"},{"start":13645.31,"end":13648.31,"text":"所以也就是我在前面一直提到"},{"start":13648.31,"end":13651.31,"text":"這個我們願意來開放討論"},{"start":13651.31,"end":13656.31,"text":"那但是這個用公投的方式太過草率"},{"start":13656.31,"end":13662.31,"text":"那麼沒有辦法真正的展現出我們大家的社會的共識"},{"start":13662.31,"end":13666.31,"text":"所以這個是因為它裡面的細節實在是太多了"},{"start":13666.31,"end":13668.31,"text":"那據我的了解"},{"start":13668.31,"end":13672.31,"text":"過去世界醫師會也曾經有反對過"},{"start":13672.31,"end":13676.31,"text":"這個醫師協助自殺這件事情"},{"start":13676.31,"end":13680.31,"text":"所以這個確實它就是一個爭議的議題"},{"start":13680.31,"end":13684.31,"text":"可是就是說我們以前"},{"start":13684.31,"end":13687.31,"text":"大家可能會很禁忌去提這樣的一個議題"},{"start":13687.31,"end":13690.31,"text":"可是隨著高齡化的這樣的一個社會"},{"start":13690.31,"end":13693.31,"text":"那其實有很多人會很open"},{"start":13693.31,"end":13695.31,"text":"就是去討論這樣的一個議題"},{"start":13695.31,"end":13696.31,"text":"那當然就是說"},{"start":13696.31,"end":13699.31,"text":"我覺得衛福部或者是法務部針對這一部分"},{"start":13699.31,"end":13704.31,"text":"我覺得應該就法的部分應該也要去討論一下"},{"start":13704.31,"end":13706.31,"text":"就是說刑法的部分"},{"start":13706.31,"end":13709.31,"text":"那會不會有這種加工自殺"},{"start":13709.31,"end":13712.31,"text":"那是不是會有殺人罪的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":13712.31,"end":13714.31,"text":"我覺得法務部應該也要就這一部分"},{"start":13714.31,"end":13716.31,"text":"也要有所去討論"},{"start":13716.31,"end":13720.31,"text":"然後也可能要找一些專家學者來針對這一部分"},{"start":13720.31,"end":13724.31,"text":"未來如果大家的都有共識"},{"start":13724.31,"end":13726.31,"text":"那未來如果真的也有安樂死"},{"start":13726.31,"end":13728.31,"text":"那可能會碰到什麼樣的議題"},{"start":13728.31,"end":13731.31,"text":"就法的部分可能會碰到什麼樣的問題"},{"start":13731.31,"end":13734.31,"text":"我是不是可以先請法務部這邊先"},{"start":13735.69,"end":13736.69,"text":"解釋一下"},{"start":13741.55,"end":13745.55,"text":"跟委員報告有關您剛剛垂尋的這個議題"},{"start":13745.55,"end":13747.55,"text":"那就本部的立場"},{"start":13747.55,"end":13752.55,"text":"我們是認為生命權是憲法保障的重要基本權"},{"start":13752.55,"end":13755.55,"text":"國家原則上也是負有保護生命的義務"},{"start":13755.55,"end":13761.55,"text":"所以我們將來如果說真的是立法政策是要容許安樂死的話"},{"start":13761.55,"end":13765.55,"text":"那這個當然是涉及生命權保障的重大公共利益"},{"start":13765.55,"end":13768.55,"text":"所以我們在立法的過程中"},{"start":13768.55,"end":13773.55,"text":"我們是建議應該是要充分的衡量是不是有符合比例原則"},{"start":13773.55,"end":13776.55,"text":"然後是不是有建立足夠的程序保障"},{"start":13776.55,"end":13779.55,"text":"然後是不是真正處於本人的自主意識"},{"start":13779.55,"end":13784.55,"text":"然後是不是沒有避免弱勢者遭受不當的壓力"},{"start":13784.55,"end":13787.55,"text":"那這個是立法的時候我們應該審慎評估的重要事項"},{"start":13787.55,"end":13791.55,"text":"那當然這個是屬於衛福部的權責"},{"start":13791.55,"end":13796.55,"text":"而且這涉及很多重大的醫療決策跟決定"},{"start":13796.55,"end":13797.55,"text":"好非常專業"},{"start":13797.55,"end":13803.55,"text":"那本部是尊重主管機關的政策決定跟專業評估還有大院的審議決定"},{"start":13803.55,"end":13805.55,"text":"好那其實我們看到很多國家"},{"start":13805.55,"end":13808.55,"text":"就是有一些國家就我剛剛列出來這些國家"},{"start":13808.55,"end":13815.55,"text":"他們這個上面就是說有的國家他們這個安樂死已經有很多年了"},{"start":13815.55,"end":13818.55,"text":"可是還有一些這個反對的聲音"},{"start":13818.55,"end":13821.55,"text":"當然就是說這一些反對的聲音"},{"start":13821.55,"end":13827.55,"text":"雖然這一個有的國家可能這一個已經很就是已經實行很久了"},{"start":13827.55,"end":13830.55,"text":"那確實還是會有一些聲音"},{"start":13830.55,"end":13836.55,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說未來如果真的在這個公投上面"},{"start":13836.55,"end":13840.55,"text":"或者是說未來真的有這樣的一個安樂死的這個部分"},{"start":13840.55,"end":13844.55,"text":"當然就是要集合眾多人的這個意見"},{"start":13844.55,"end":13846.55,"text":"然後大家要有一個共識"},{"start":13846.55,"end":13849.55,"text":"可能就是要跟社會也要溝通"},{"start":13849.55,"end":13856.55,"text":"要不然如果這個未來就是有這樣的一個安樂死就是通過之後"},{"start":13856.55,"end":13859.55,"text":"我覺得可能也會有延伸更多的一個問題"},{"start":13859.55,"end":13866.55,"text":"當然就是說為什麼會這個患者或者是會有想要這個安樂死"},{"start":13866.55,"end":13868.55,"text":"第一個可能他會覺得痛苦"},{"start":13868.55,"end":13871.55,"text":"我覺得很多人因為我碰到一位"},{"start":13871.55,"end":13877.55,"text":"那他是這個因為車禍然後造成整個四肢癱瘓"},{"start":13877.55,"end":13882.55,"text":"就是他的這個意識是清醒的"},{"start":13882.55,"end":13885.55,"text":"所以他會覺得說他整天躺在那邊"},{"start":13885.55,"end":13887.55,"text":"然後四肢都不能動他覺得非常的痛苦"},{"start":13887.55,"end":13891.55,"text":"那也拖累家人然後整個經濟狀況都被拖累"},{"start":13891.55,"end":13896.55,"text":"所以他從一開始躺到現在兩年多的時間"},{"start":13896.55,"end":13899.55,"text":"他會覺得說他想要結束自己的生命"},{"start":13899.55,"end":13902.55,"text":"那當然他自己沒辦法結束自己的生命"},{"start":13902.55,"end":13907.55,"text":"結束自己的生命當然就是要透過可能要用其他的方式"},{"start":13907.55,"end":13909.55,"text":"可是如果今天沒有這個安樂死的話"},{"start":13909.55,"end":13913.55,"text":"也許他可能這個一躺可能又要躺好幾年"},{"start":13913.55,"end":13916.55,"text":"躺好幾年那就是自然死亡"},{"start":13916.55,"end":13920.55,"text":"所以就是說我覺得這個議題是可以去討論"},{"start":13920.55,"end":13924.55,"text":"那可能就法的部分可能會延伸更多的問題"},{"start":13924.55,"end":13928.55,"text":"不論是憲法或者刑法都會延伸非常多的問題"},{"start":13928.55,"end":13932.55,"text":"我也希望就是說既然這個議題已經拋出來"},{"start":13932.55,"end":13937.55,"text":"那衛福部跟這個我們法務部針對這部分應該也要去研擬"},{"start":13937.55,"end":13940.55,"text":"就未來如果真的這個安樂死就是成立之後"},{"start":13940.55,"end":13944.55,"text":"那會這個就法的部分會碰到什麼樣的議題"},{"start":13944.55,"end":13946.55,"text":"那再來就是說醫師的部分"},{"start":13946.55,"end":13949.55,"text":"因為今天我看到醫師公會他們是反對的"},{"start":13949.55,"end":13953.55,"text":"那未來這個執行誰要執行如果醫師都反對了"},{"start":13953.55,"end":13956.55,"text":"那醫師是不是可以拒絕不要去執行"},{"start":13956.55,"end":13958.55,"text":"是不是這樣子"},{"start":13959.49,"end":13966.49,"text":"跟委員說明就是以現在其他的國家有施行這個安樂死的"},{"start":13966.49,"end":13969.49,"text":"大概都是要先經過醫師的處方"},{"start":13969.49,"end":13972.49,"text":"大概這個處方都是醫師開出來"},{"start":13972.49,"end":13977.49,"text":"只是有的是由病人自己使用"},{"start":13977.49,"end":13982.49,"text":"有的是可以由醫師直接給予"},{"start":13982.49,"end":13984.49,"text":"所以這個還是我後面的執行端"},{"start":13984.49,"end":13986.49,"text":"那麼當然"},{"start":13987.28,"end":13992.28,"text":"這個即使在有通過安樂死法案的國家"},{"start":13992.28,"end":13997.28,"text":"他也允許這個醫師他有他個人的價值"},{"start":13997.28,"end":14000.28,"text":"或者是信仰下不執行的權利"},{"start":14000.28,"end":14006.28,"text":"所以這個是在已經有安樂死的這個合法的國家也是這樣"},{"start":14006.28,"end":14012.28,"text":"所以你才會看到有一些都是固定或部分的機構或醫師才執行"},{"start":14012.28,"end":14016.28,"text":"並不是每一個醫師都在做這件事情"},{"start":14016.28,"end":14020.28,"text":"好我們就是說透過今天的這個討論"},{"start":14020.28,"end":14022.28,"text":"就是說這個議題已經拋出來"},{"start":14022.28,"end":14027.28,"text":"那當然就是相關的單位大家要去研擬也要去討論一下"},{"start":14027.28,"end":14029.28,"text":"未來可能碰到這個法的部分"},{"start":14029.28,"end":14032.28,"text":"那再來就是說醫師拒絕執行的話"},{"start":14032.28,"end":14035.28,"text":"那要有什麼樣的方式"},{"start":14035.28,"end":14036.28,"text":"我覺得這個都可以討論"},{"start":14036.28,"end":14038.28,"text":"不是說大家就避開不談"},{"start":14038.28,"end":14040.28,"text":"當然就是要去討論"},{"start":14040.28,"end":14042.28,"text":"取得社會的共識"},{"start":14042.28,"end":14044.28,"text":"而不是用公投的方式來決定"},{"start":14044.28,"end":14046.28,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":14046.28,"end":14048.28,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":14047.76,"end":14050.76,"text":"好謝謝黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":14050.76,"end":14052.76,"text":"那重新公告"},{"start":14053.19,"end":14055.19,"text":"待會兒去"},{"start":14056.13,"end":14060.13,"text":"待會兒召之委員巡達完畢後休息30分鐘"},{"start":14060.13,"end":14062.13,"text":"那接下來請王振旭委員"},{"start":14069.92,"end":14071.92,"text":"好謝謝主席我們還是請市部長"},{"start":14071.92,"end":14073.92,"text":"有請市部長"},{"start":14077.21,"end":14078.21,"text":"王委員好"},{"start":14078.21,"end":14079.21,"text":"部長好"},{"start":14079.21,"end":14083.21,"text":"今天就是要針對很重要的主題"},{"start":14083.21,"end":14085.21,"text":"就是有關於安樂死的部分"},{"start":14085.21,"end":14087.21,"text":"的研究啦病毒"},{"start":14087.21,"end":14091.21,"text":"跟安寧緩和醫療政策這兩點來跟部長討論"},{"start":14091.21,"end":14093.21,"text":"大家一直在討論我想"},{"start":14093.21,"end":14095.21,"text":"所有的委員都很關心"},{"start":14095.21,"end":14099.21,"text":"就是民眾他是對安樂死那麼有高的期待"},{"start":14099.21,"end":14102.21,"text":"或者是很希望能夠趕快立法"},{"start":14102.21,"end":14105.21,"text":"相信大家都講得非常清楚"},{"start":14105.21,"end":14107.21,"text":"就是很怕痛苦"},{"start":14107.21,"end":14109.21,"text":"不知道將來怎麼樣去掌握痛苦"},{"start":14109.21,"end":14114.21,"text":"那如果根據世界衛生組織對痛苦的定義的話"},{"start":14114.21,"end":14118.21,"text":"他是認為只要任何身心設靈"},{"start":14118.21,"end":14121.21,"text":"這四大部分四大面向不平安"},{"start":14121.21,"end":14122.21,"text":"那就是痛苦"},{"start":14122.21,"end":14125.21,"text":"那其實痛跟苦是分開的"},{"start":14125.21,"end":14129.21,"text":"痛的話身體上的一些不舒服不平安我們就稱為痛"},{"start":14129.21,"end":14131.21,"text":"那更難的是苦"},{"start":14131.21,"end":14135.21,"text":"任何心理上的或者是靈性上"},{"start":14135.21,"end":14137.21,"text":"包括我們上次所提到的這些"},{"start":14137.74,"end":14140.74,"text":"可能很擔心成為其他人的負擔"},{"start":14140.74,"end":14141.74,"text":"他覺得生命沒有意義"},{"start":14141.74,"end":14145.74,"text":"這些苦如何能夠有效的去處理"},{"start":14145.74,"end":14148.74,"text":"如果能夠把痛跟苦做有效處理"},{"start":14148.74,"end":14150.74,"text":"那是不是平安了以後"},{"start":14150.74,"end":14153.74,"text":"對安樂死的觀點又會不一樣"},{"start":14153.74,"end":14157.74,"text":"這個就是大家必須要共同努力的來討論"},{"start":14157.74,"end":14159.74,"text":"那也希望未來在死亡這個議題"},{"start":14159.74,"end":14161.74,"text":"社會有更多的共識"},{"start":14161.74,"end":14163.74,"text":"那身為一個腫瘤科醫師"},{"start":14163.74,"end":14165.74,"text":"對死亡議題真的感受特別深刻"},{"start":14165.74,"end":14167.74,"text":"所以我們很期待未來"},{"start":14167.74,"end":14170.74,"text":"不管是主管機關或者是社會"},{"start":14170.74,"end":14172.74,"text":"如何能夠針對這個議題"},{"start":14172.74,"end":14176.74,"text":"包括我們看到這個民眾黨的"},{"start":14176.74,"end":14179.74,"text":"本身所提出來的這個法案"},{"start":14179.74,"end":14183.74,"text":"或者是陳文文所提出來的這個法案"},{"start":14183.74,"end":14186.74,"text":"真的是值得大家共同努力來討論"},{"start":14186.74,"end":14190.74,"text":"那安樂死是不是跟等同善終"},{"start":14190.74,"end":14192.74,"text":"我想這也是大家共同要去瞭解的"},{"start":14194.52,"end":14196.52,"text":"剛剛講過的善終的意思就是"},{"start":14196.52,"end":14199.52,"text":"很平安的離開就是善終"},{"start":14199.52,"end":14204.52,"text":"那如果剛剛也提到說什麼是不平安就是痛苦"},{"start":14204.52,"end":14206.52,"text":"那如何能夠把安樂死"},{"start":14206.52,"end":14209.52,"text":"如果將來經過大家討論以後"},{"start":14209.52,"end":14211.52,"text":"真的有辦法做到善終"},{"start":14211.52,"end":14213.52,"text":"這是非常完美的"},{"start":14213.52,"end":14215.52,"text":"那要跨到這個部分之前"},{"start":14215.52,"end":14217.52,"text":"我們如何能夠有好的討論模式"},{"start":14217.52,"end":14219.52,"text":"我相信今天的社會委員應該都是"},{"start":14219.52,"end":14223.52,"text":"跟部長跟大家要共同來討論"},{"start":14223.52,"end":14227.52,"text":"那今天我先引用立法院法治局"},{"start":14227.52,"end":14229.52,"text":"他們所做的研究"},{"start":14229.52,"end":14231.52,"text":"在2015年5月份"},{"start":14231.52,"end":14234.52,"text":"立法院法治局他們有把這個研究"},{"start":14234.52,"end":14237.52,"text":"真的安樂死的類型做一些區分"},{"start":14237.52,"end":14240.52,"text":"第一個就是所謂的積極安樂死"},{"start":14240.52,"end":14242.52,"text":"另外就是消極的安樂死"},{"start":14242.52,"end":14244.52,"text":"那這是從這個醫療行為裡面"},{"start":14244.52,"end":14246.52,"text":"來做一個判斷的標準"},{"start":14246.52,"end":14250.52,"text":"那積極安樂死意思還分成兩種"},{"start":14250.52,"end":14253.52,"text":"積極安樂死就是指醫療人員"},{"start":14253.52,"end":14255.52,"text":"或他人採取積極的行動"},{"start":14255.52,"end":14258.52,"text":"直接來促成病人死亡"},{"start":14258.52,"end":14260.52,"text":"這個就是稱為積極安樂死"},{"start":14260.52,"end":14264.52,"text":"那這個部分分為兩個目的跟方式"},{"start":14264.52,"end":14266.52,"text":"一個就是直接安樂死"},{"start":14266.52,"end":14268.52,"text":"一個是間接安樂死"},{"start":14268.52,"end":14270.52,"text":"這個我們從螢幕上可以看得出來"},{"start":14270.52,"end":14273.52,"text":"所謂這個直接安樂死就是透過注射藥物"},{"start":14273.52,"end":14276.52,"text":"或其他方式來直接造成病人的死亡"},{"start":14276.52,"end":14278.52,"text":"那如果是間接安樂死的話"},{"start":14278.52,"end":14282.52,"text":"就是在緩解病人痛苦的醫療過程當中"},{"start":14282.52,"end":14285.52,"text":"使用可能具有縮短生命效果的藥物"},{"start":14285.52,"end":14287.52,"text":"或者是措施"},{"start":14287.52,"end":14290.52,"text":"其主要目的還是要減輕痛苦"},{"start":14290.52,"end":14292.52,"text":"而不是直接造成死亡"},{"start":14294.51,"end":14297.51,"text":"積極安樂死再分為這兩個大部分"},{"start":14297.51,"end":14300.51,"text":"那所謂的消極安樂死是指停止"},{"start":14300.51,"end":14302.51,"text":"或者是不施行無效"},{"start":14302.51,"end":14305.51,"text":"無益的這個嚴密醫療的措施"},{"start":14305.51,"end":14308.51,"text":"例如我們在已經實施提供的"},{"start":14308.51,"end":14309.51,"text":"撤除微生設備"},{"start":14309.51,"end":14313.51,"text":"拒絕接受微生這個治療"},{"start":14313.51,"end":14316.51,"text":"或讓疾病自然發展至死亡"},{"start":14316.51,"end":14319.51,"text":"這個也是一種安樂死的一種形式"},{"start":14319.51,"end":14322.51,"text":"那另外第三個就是協助自殺"},{"start":14322.51,"end":14325.51,"text":"協助自殺就是我們剛剛聽到的"},{"start":14325.51,"end":14328.51,"text":"病人執行結束生命的嫌疑"},{"start":14328.51,"end":14332.51,"text":"但是必須要由他人來提供必要的協助"},{"start":14332.51,"end":14335.51,"text":"那這樣提供大部分都是以醫療相關"},{"start":14335.51,"end":14338.51,"text":"由醫師來開立處方以後"},{"start":14338.51,"end":14341.51,"text":"所以如果我們將來要討論的話"},{"start":14341.51,"end":14344.51,"text":"可能要大家針對這些名詞"},{"start":14344.51,"end":14350.51,"text":"或者是概念上需要有比較好的一個理論的基礎"},{"start":14350.51,"end":14352.51,"text":"不然的話恐怕會混為一談"},{"start":14352.51,"end":14356.51,"text":"那這部分另外也提供這個加拿大"},{"start":14356.51,"end":14359.51,"text":"實驗的經驗再供大家參考一下"},{"start":14359.51,"end":14361.51,"text":"我想部長應該很清楚"},{"start":14361.51,"end":14365.51,"text":"那剛剛林處長也非常用很多時間"},{"start":14365.51,"end":14368.51,"text":"針對加拿大的經驗也提供了一些說法"},{"start":14368.51,"end":14370.51,"text":"那這邊的例子是說"},{"start":14370.51,"end":14374.51,"text":"在加拿大在2016年將這個醫療協助死亡"},{"start":14374.51,"end":14376.51,"text":"合法化了以後呢"},{"start":14376.51,"end":14379.51,"text":"到現在已經將近十年的時間"},{"start":14379.51,"end":14381.51,"text":"那根據加拿大衛生部所"},{"start":14381.51,"end":14384.51,"text":"最近公布的這個官方年度報告裡面"},{"start":14384.51,"end":14387.51,"text":"2024年死亡人數占這個"},{"start":14387.51,"end":14390.51,"text":"透過安樂死和死亡人數占這個"},{"start":14390.51,"end":14393.51,"text":"整個死亡人口的5.1%"},{"start":14393.51,"end":14397.51,"text":"所以的確他們也執行到有將近5.1%"},{"start":14397.51,"end":14402.51,"text":"那這個人數是不是跟他們當初所預期的有落差"},{"start":14402.51,"end":14405.51,"text":"這個我們還需要做後續的了解"},{"start":14405.51,"end":14406.51,"text":"那意思就是說"},{"start":14406.51,"end":14409.51,"text":"合法化十年的安樂死在加拿大"},{"start":14409.51,"end":14412.51,"text":"看起來安樂死這個所占的比例"},{"start":14412.51,"end":14415.51,"text":"還是不是多數人臨床的選擇"},{"start":14415.51,"end":14417.51,"text":"只有5.1%"},{"start":14417.51,"end":14420.51,"text":"所以大部分的人還是依靠既有的醫療"},{"start":14420.51,"end":14423.51,"text":"跟長照體系走完最後一層"},{"start":14423.51,"end":14426.51,"text":"那他們在這個報告裡面呢"},{"start":14426.51,"end":14428.51,"text":"另外有直接點出說"},{"start":14428.51,"end":14429.51,"text":"非末期的"},{"start":14430.42,"end":14433.42,"text":"病患申請者當中有一半左右"},{"start":14433.42,"end":14435.42,"text":"占了49.2%"},{"start":14435.42,"end":14438.42,"text":"表示自己是因為覺得"},{"start":14438.42,"end":14440.42,"text":"是家人的負擔"},{"start":14440.88,"end":14442.88,"text":"這種想要減少"},{"start":14442.88,"end":14444.88,"text":"或者是想要免除家人的負擔"},{"start":14444.88,"end":14446.88,"text":"而申請了安樂死"},{"start":14446.88,"end":14449.88,"text":"那另外那個安大略省首席的"},{"start":14449.88,"end":14452.88,"text":"驗屍官辦公室的審查報告裡面"},{"start":14452.88,"end":14453.88,"text":"也有多次的揭露"},{"start":14453.88,"end":14455.88,"text":"有個案是在長照"},{"start":14455.88,"end":14459.88,"text":"或者是安寧床位不足的情形之下"},{"start":14459.88,"end":14461.88,"text":"經過數個小時"},{"start":14461.88,"end":14463.88,"text":"就會核准病人執行安樂死"},{"start":14463.88,"end":14464.88,"text":"這個代表說"},{"start":14464.88,"end":14467.88,"text":"如果我們有足夠的醫療資源的話"},{"start":14467.88,"end":14469.88,"text":"也許這個選擇就會不一樣"},{"start":14469.88,"end":14471.88,"text":"那也有在這個報告"},{"start":14471.88,"end":14473.88,"text":"有委員指出說"},{"start":14473.88,"end":14477.88,"text":"少數的醫師會集中執行大多數的案例"},{"start":14477.88,"end":14479.88,"text":"那這個代表著"},{"start":14479.88,"end":14481.88,"text":"這個把關的寬延不一"},{"start":14481.88,"end":14484.88,"text":"這個就是未來我們在討論的時候"},{"start":14484.88,"end":14486.88,"text":"或者是立法的過程裡面"},{"start":14486.88,"end":14488.88,"text":"也要非常非常注意的地方"},{"start":14489.58,"end":14491.58,"text":"那這些都代表著安樂死"},{"start":14491.58,"end":14493.58,"text":"或是在加拿大十年以後"},{"start":14493.58,"end":14495.58,"text":"官方自己的報告點出來的問題"},{"start":14495.58,"end":14497.58,"text":"就是安樂死的執行"},{"start":14497.58,"end":14499.58,"text":"或者是處理還是要更多的討論"},{"start":14499.58,"end":14503.58,"text":"才是未來我們要處理的重點"},{"start":14503.58,"end":14506.58,"text":"那當然如果我們把現有的病毒法"},{"start":14506.58,"end":14508.58,"text":"安寧緩和條例跟長照做好"},{"start":14508.58,"end":14510.58,"text":"做完整的話"},{"start":14510.58,"end":14514.58,"text":"那是不是就能夠讓這樣的需求"},{"start":14514.58,"end":14516.58,"text":"做一個不同的考量"},{"start":14516.58,"end":14518.58,"text":"所以面對安樂死政策的建議"},{"start":14518.58,"end":14521.58,"text":"有兩點請部長來考量"},{"start":14521.58,"end":14522.58,"text":"第一個"},{"start":14522.58,"end":14525.58,"text":"衛福部不應該只是被動的回應"},{"start":14525.58,"end":14528.58,"text":"必須要主動的去把這個議題拋出來以後"},{"start":14528.58,"end":14533.58,"text":"如何共同的請社會所有的人民民眾"},{"start":14533.58,"end":14536.58,"text":"還有所有的專家學者一起共同來討論"},{"start":14536.58,"end":14537.58,"text":"第二個部分"},{"start":14537.58,"end":14541.58,"text":"衛福部也應該儘速啟動跨國的比較研究"},{"start":14541.58,"end":14544.58,"text":"讓討論的過程裡面可以更為周詳"},{"start":14544.58,"end":14546.58,"text":"部長您的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":14546.58,"end":14548.58,"text":"事實上跟委員說明"},{"start":14548.58,"end":14551.58,"text":"過去也有收集過其他國家的資料"},{"start":14551.58,"end":14553.58,"text":"不過這些年過去之後"},{"start":14553.58,"end":14557.58,"text":"這些實施的國家也有更進一步的討論"},{"start":14557.58,"end":14559.58,"text":"所以我剛剛也說"},{"start":14559.58,"end":14563.58,"text":"就是我們一年內會完成這樣的一個研究"},{"start":14563.58,"end":14565.58,"text":"包含跨國比較之外"},{"start":14565.58,"end":14569.58,"text":"還要開啟國內的各個焦點團體"},{"start":14569.58,"end":14572.58,"text":"或者是透過討論的方式"},{"start":14572.58,"end":14574.58,"text":"那麼把這些重要的議題"},{"start":14574.58,"end":14577.58,"text":"跟大家盡可能的共識"},{"start":14577.58,"end":14579.58,"text":"把它逐步的點出來"},{"start":14579.58,"end":14586.58,"text":"其實是非常需要大家共同來努力的方向"},{"start":14586.58,"end":14590.58,"text":"其實我們目前在透過病人自主權利法"},{"start":14590.58,"end":14592.58,"text":"跟安庭緩和醫療條例"},{"start":14592.58,"end":14596.58,"text":"事實上也已經提供病人在特定條件之下"},{"start":14596.58,"end":14598.58,"text":"可選擇不接受無效醫療"},{"start":14598.58,"end":14601.58,"text":"讓病情自然發展到死亡"},{"start":14601.58,"end":14605.58,"text":"這個都是我們目前在執行過程裡面"},{"start":14605.58,"end":14608.58,"text":"其實是有這樣可以依據的"},{"start":14608.58,"end":14610.58,"text":"當然這個落實部分"},{"start":14610.58,"end":14613.58,"text":"就會有現況跟困境"},{"start":14613.58,"end":14615.58,"text":"這個現況跟困境"},{"start":14616.19,"end":14619.19,"text":"也正在修這個病主法"},{"start":14619.19,"end":14621.19,"text":"希望能夠擴大這個範圍"},{"start":14621.19,"end":14623.19,"text":"可是在目前有了解說"},{"start":14623.19,"end":14626.19,"text":"病主法跟安庭緩和的這個現況問題裡面"},{"start":14626.19,"end":14631.19,"text":"就會包括第一個就是ACP的服務量不足"},{"start":14631.19,"end":14635.19,"text":"再過來就是制度性的障礙需要趕快突破"},{"start":14635.19,"end":14639.19,"text":"還有啟動標準模糊燃性導致AD的架空"},{"start":14639.19,"end":14642.19,"text":"第三個就是跨場域的資訊斷鏈"},{"start":14642.19,"end":14645.19,"text":"病人醫院在轉型中遺失第一線人員"},{"start":14645.19,"end":14647.19,"text":"權責界線不明"},{"start":14647.19,"end":14649.19,"text":"承受這個巨大的風險壓力"},{"start":14649.19,"end":14652.19,"text":"社會端生命適民的匱乏"},{"start":14652.19,"end":14655.19,"text":"決策被推斬到這個最後一刻"},{"start":14655.19,"end":14657.19,"text":"才會去考慮怎麼用"},{"start":14657.19,"end":14660.19,"text":"所以這些困境我們都了解"},{"start":14660.19,"end":14663.19,"text":"那我說我們在病主法的修法的過程裡面"},{"start":14663.19,"end":14666.19,"text":"還有帶更多的共識"},{"start":14666.19,"end":14669.19,"text":"那在這個還沒有完成這些修法之前"},{"start":14669.19,"end":14671.19,"text":"那是不是能夠考慮"},{"start":14671.19,"end":14674.19,"text":"第一個就是直接來這個修正"},{"start":14674.19,"end":14678.19,"text":"提供育力醫主照護諮詢的這個醫療機構管理辦法"},{"start":14678.19,"end":14680.19,"text":"來加強執行"},{"start":14680.19,"end":14682.19,"text":"第二部分是不是能夠納入大家"},{"start":14682.19,"end":14686.19,"text":"等這個家庭跟社區醫師的照護計畫"},{"start":14686.19,"end":14687.19,"text":"來提高這個量能"},{"start":14687.19,"end":14690.19,"text":"能不能夠持續擴大健保的給付範圍"},{"start":14690.19,"end":14693.19,"text":"早上部長在口頭報告裡面"},{"start":14693.19,"end":14695.19,"text":"也有把這些人數做了說明"},{"start":14695.19,"end":14698.19,"text":"似乎我們需要能夠再加把勁"},{"start":14698.19,"end":14700.19,"text":"部長你目前有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":14700.19,"end":14705.19,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們一開始起步真的是很困難"},{"start":14705.19,"end":14710.19,"text":"不過在去年我們把這個健保"},{"start":14710.19,"end":14713.19,"text":"對於65歲以上的多重慢性病"},{"start":14713.19,"end":14716.19,"text":"或者是有重大傷病"},{"start":14716.19,"end":14718.19,"text":"那麼以及符合安寧緩和醫療條例的"},{"start":14718.19,"end":14723.19,"text":"這些條件已經納入在健保的給付ACP"},{"start":14723.19,"end":14726.19,"text":"所以我們現在的人數看起來已經有明顯的成長"},{"start":14726.19,"end":14728.19,"text":"我們今年到現在為止"},{"start":14728.19,"end":14731.19,"text":"過去安寧簽的人數比較多"},{"start":14731.19,"end":14734.19,"text":"因為他不需要ACP的過程比較容易"},{"start":14734.19,"end":14737.19,"text":"這個是比較不好簽的A-D"},{"start":14737.19,"end":14739.19,"text":"但是從今年的統計來看"},{"start":14739.19,"end":14742.19,"text":"那麼已經有明顯拉近他的差距"},{"start":14742.19,"end":14745.19,"text":"簽安寧的大概是4萬5千多人"},{"start":14745.19,"end":14748.19,"text":"但是已經簽了A-D的是2萬6千多人"},{"start":14748.19,"end":14752.19,"text":"跟過去的落差已經慢慢在追趕"},{"start":14752.19,"end":14755.19,"text":"所以我們透過大家一計畫"},{"start":14755.19,"end":14757.19,"text":"您這邊提到的大家一計畫"},{"start":14757.19,"end":14761.19,"text":"就是大家一計畫裡面65歲以上多重慢性病的"},{"start":14761.19,"end":14763.19,"text":"我們是有給付ACP"},{"start":14763.19,"end":14771.19,"text":"只是說醫師本身還是要去符合ACP機構的條件"},{"start":14771.19,"end":14775.19,"text":"剛剛提到說他需要醫師要有相關專科"},{"start":14775.19,"end":14778.19,"text":"然後要有護理人員還有心理社工人員這些"},{"start":14778.19,"end":14781.19,"text":"這些有些診所可能比較"},{"start":14781.62,"end":14784.62,"text":"不好完備這些人力"},{"start":14784.62,"end":14786.62,"text":"所以如何讓他用資源的方式"},{"start":14786.62,"end":14793.62,"text":"不見得都是要在一個診所裡面才能夠做"},{"start":14793.62,"end":14797.62,"text":"這個我們剛剛您提到的這個辦法"},{"start":14797.62,"end":14799.62,"text":"我們來研議來修"},{"start":14799.62,"end":14806.62,"text":"那目前也在討論未來還可以放寬更多樣態的機構"},{"start":14806.62,"end":14808.62,"text":"也可以來協助做ACP"},{"start":14808.62,"end":14811.62,"text":"這樣就會讓這個可進性更高"},{"start":14811.62,"end":14813.62,"text":"這個第一個"},{"start":14813.62,"end":14815.62,"text":"第二個執行面的部分"},{"start":14815.62,"end":14818.62,"text":"當然這個慢慢慢慢我們也是從做中學"},{"start":14818.62,"end":14822.62,"text":"怎麼去啟動團隊要召會"},{"start":14822.62,"end":14824.62,"text":"然後再來怎麼執行"},{"start":14824.62,"end":14829.62,"text":"這些我們也都會定期的再委託做一些推廣"},{"start":14829.62,"end":14833.62,"text":"我們的這個病主中心也在做這些推廣"},{"start":14833.62,"end":14836.62,"text":"那我來看看是不是有需要再制定一些"},{"start":14836.62,"end":14839.62,"text":"像Handbook或者是指引之類的東西"},{"start":14839.62,"end":14844.62,"text":"讓大家在執行上能夠更有一些這個參考的依據"},{"start":14844.62,"end":14847.62,"text":"那就請部長來儘速提高這個"},{"start":14847.62,"end":14849.62,"text":"資商服務的可進性"},{"start":14849.62,"end":14854.62,"text":"那如果費用的負擔能夠再做好的處理的話會更好"},{"start":14854.62,"end":14857.62,"text":"最後一點點的時間就是如何強化"},{"start":14857.62,"end":14861.62,"text":"剛剛我們所提到的如何讓所有的人平安"},{"start":14861.62,"end":14865.62,"text":"如何強化長照安寧政策的銜接"},{"start":14865.62,"end":14869.62,"text":"那目前是不是有施署來整合相關的政策規劃"},{"start":14869.62,"end":14872.62,"text":"或者是明確的這些政策的指引"},{"start":14872.62,"end":14875.62,"text":"因為劉司長醫事師劉司長也很擔心說"},{"start":14875.62,"end":14879.62,"text":"在這個部分如果沒有整體的設計制度的話"},{"start":14879.62,"end":14882.62,"text":"未來在執行上還是會有他的困難"},{"start":14882.62,"end":14885.62,"text":"那這部分部長有沒有一個基層"},{"start":14885.62,"end":14888.62,"text":"或者是什麼時候可以給我們一個書面報告"},{"start":14888.62,"end":14891.62,"text":"好 當然這個主責單位還是在部裡面"},{"start":14891.62,"end":14894.62,"text":"由這個醫事師來主責"},{"start":14894.62,"end":14898.62,"text":"不過這個涉及到這個安寧整個政策的推動"},{"start":14898.62,"end":14900.62,"text":"那也會擴足到長照"},{"start":14900.62,"end":14903.62,"text":"我們現在也希望這些長照的對象"},{"start":14903.62,"end":14907.62,"text":"那麼也能夠有這個ACPAD的簽署"},{"start":14907.62,"end":14910.62,"text":"所以這個是目前長照3.0裡面在規劃的"},{"start":14910.62,"end":14913.62,"text":"那健保的部分也有政策進來了"},{"start":14913.62,"end":14915.62,"text":"剛剛我提到65歲以上"},{"start":14915.62,"end":14919.62,"text":"都從慢性病或重大傷病者都可以簽"},{"start":14919.62,"end":14922.62,"text":"除了安寧符合條件的之外"},{"start":14922.62,"end":14926.62,"text":"那只是把這個可信性如何再擴大"},{"start":14926.62,"end":14929.62,"text":"這個是我們接下來會持續的努力"},{"start":14929.62,"end":14930.62,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":14930.62,"end":14932.62,"text":"好 謝謝王晨曦委員發言"},{"start":14932.62,"end":14935.62,"text":"接下來請盧憲毅召委發言"},{"start":14945.95,"end":14947.95,"text":"謝謝主席 有請司保長"},{"start":14952.26,"end":14953.26,"text":"好 召委好"},{"start":14953.26,"end":14958.26,"text":"部長好 今天要上台之前收到了幾個陳情"},{"start":14958.26,"end":14962.26,"text":"就是關於我們全聯會他們反對的一個立場"},{"start":14962.26,"end":14966.26,"text":"那之前有收到說關於那個ACP的部分"},{"start":14966.26,"end":14970.26,"text":"是不是有考慮到曾經有人提說要從醫療團隊"},{"start":14970.26,"end":14973.26,"text":"由非醫療團隊來做這樣的一個事情呢"},{"start":14975.46,"end":14977.46,"text":"應該是這麼講就是說"},{"start":14977.46,"end":14982.46,"text":"在這一次的這個病除法的修法過程當中"},{"start":14982.46,"end":14984.46,"text":"那麼也有多位委員也提到"},{"start":14984.46,"end":14987.46,"text":"那麼如何讓他的可近性更高"},{"start":14989.35,"end":14994.35,"text":"安寧基本上安寧醫院的簽署是很多團體"},{"start":14994.35,"end":14997.35,"text":"民間團體都有共同在參與推動的"},{"start":14997.35,"end":15002.35,"text":"但是這個病除這個預立醫療決定的簽署"},{"start":15002.35,"end":15004.35,"text":"之前有一個ACP"},{"start":15004.35,"end":15008.35,"text":"有這個一個預立醫療招呼諮商的程序"},{"start":15008.35,"end":15009.35,"text":"這個程序呢"},{"start":15009.35,"end":15012.35,"text":"那麼一定是有醫療團隊"},{"start":15012.35,"end":15015.35,"text":"有醫師有護理人員或心理社工這樣"},{"start":15015.35,"end":15020.35,"text":"那這個能夠做這樣的這個條件"},{"start":15020.35,"end":15022.35,"text":"符合這些條件的機構也有限"},{"start":15022.35,"end":15027.35,"text":"所以這造成在這個AD簽署上的另外一個瓶頸"},{"start":15027.35,"end":15031.35,"text":"所以在這一次修法當中確實也有委員期待"},{"start":15031.35,"end":15037.35,"text":"希望讓能夠執行這個ACP的這個機構能夠更擴大"},{"start":15037.35,"end":15042.35,"text":"不過在這個不論未來我們怎麼樣的擴大呢"},{"start":15042.35,"end":15046.35,"text":"那麼有關於醫療的諮詢大概是免不了"},{"start":15046.35,"end":15050.35,"text":"因為這裡面牽涉到有一些醫療處置"},{"start":15050.35,"end":15054.35,"text":"什麼是這個微生設備"},{"start":15054.35,"end":15057.35,"text":"哪些是所謂的灌食"},{"start":15057.35,"end":15062.35,"text":"那麼這一些我想它還是會有一些這個需要"},{"start":15062.35,"end":15064.35,"text":"醫療諮詢的部分"},{"start":15064.35,"end":15067.35,"text":"那只是說未來如何讓這個以團隊"},{"start":15067.35,"end":15070.35,"text":"然後更深入社區"},{"start":15070.35,"end":15075.35,"text":"那麼讓民眾有需要這個簽署的可侵性可以提高"},{"start":15075.35,"end":15077.35,"text":"這個是我們未來會來持續討論"},{"start":15077.35,"end":15079.35,"text":"因為去年有這樣的表達"},{"start":15079.35,"end":15080.35,"text":"所以我想說是要讓部長知道"},{"start":15080.35,"end":15084.35,"text":"他們不太希望是交由非醫療團隊來執行所謂的ACP"},{"start":15084.35,"end":15087.35,"text":"對於就是他們對今天要討論這個議題"},{"start":15087.35,"end":15089.35,"text":"他們也持反對的立場"},{"start":15089.35,"end":15092.35,"text":"大概幾個訴求大概也了解"},{"start":15092.35,"end":15094.35,"text":"當然對於我想死這件事情"},{"start":15094.35,"end":15098.35,"text":"國家如何來判斷這是一個真正的自由的決定嗎"},{"start":15098.35,"end":15100.35,"text":"這個被在乎不足家庭壓力"},{"start":15100.35,"end":15103.35,"text":"會因為他的環境逼出來一個選擇"},{"start":15103.35,"end":15106.35,"text":"我覺得這是我們政府要去討論的問題"},{"start":15106.35,"end":15107.35,"text":"所以第一個我就是想問說"},{"start":15107.35,"end":15109.35,"text":"法案已經經過我們國會審查"},{"start":15109.35,"end":15111.35,"text":"衛福部是否應該已經有"},{"start":15111.35,"end":15114.35,"text":"應該有的政策準備跟影響評估"},{"start":15114.97,"end":15116.97,"text":"有這方面的評估了嗎"},{"start":15116.97,"end":15120.97,"text":"當然這一次的是沒有行政院版本"},{"start":15120.97,"end":15123.97,"text":"因為我們認為還是很多的點"},{"start":15123.97,"end":15126.97,"text":"需要再進一步的討論釐清"},{"start":15126.97,"end":15130.97,"text":"才能夠提出是不是要立法"},{"start":15130.97,"end":15132.97,"text":"或者是立法的內容"},{"start":15132.97,"end":15136.97,"text":"當然針對這個委員所提出的"},{"start":15136.97,"end":15140.97,"text":"或者是黨團所提出的這個法案"},{"start":15140.97,"end":15141.97,"text":"那麼我們也認為"},{"start":15141.97,"end":15144.97,"text":"這裡面還是有一些需要釐清"},{"start":15144.97,"end":15146.97,"text":"把它定位好的地方"},{"start":15146.97,"end":15149.97,"text":"這個要跟部長討論就是說"},{"start":15149.97,"end":15152.97,"text":"其實他的以後要講的評估範圍"},{"start":15152.97,"end":15154.97,"text":"就是適用對象痛苦的判斷"},{"start":15154.97,"end":15157.97,"text":"意識能力 預立決定 代理制度"},{"start":15157.97,"end":15159.97,"text":"醫師的權利義務更新 市民事責任"},{"start":15159.97,"end":15161.97,"text":"保險的效果 死亡證明"},{"start":15161.97,"end":15163.97,"text":"司法下驗這些藥品管理"},{"start":15163.97,"end":15166.97,"text":"我覺得這些都是很多要討論的地方"},{"start":15166.97,"end":15168.97,"text":"所以我在想說在討論這個之前"},{"start":15168.97,"end":15171.97,"text":"我覺得政府有沒有提供足夠的照護的選項"},{"start":15171.97,"end":15174.97,"text":"是不是應該要去充分的討論"},{"start":15174.97,"end":15175.97,"text":"因為我們常常覺得說"},{"start":15175.97,"end":15177.97,"text":"我們在提醒政府說"},{"start":15177.97,"end":15178.97,"text":"面對這些重度失能"},{"start":15178.97,"end":15180.97,"text":"一個人的生命意願"},{"start":15180.97,"end":15182.97,"text":"有沒有被照顧 被陪伴 被支持"},{"start":15182.97,"end":15184.97,"text":"產生不同的變化"},{"start":15184.97,"end":15186.97,"text":"所以我在 我要問部長"},{"start":15186.97,"end":15189.97,"text":"如果病人的生命終結意願"},{"start":15189.97,"end":15192.97,"text":"主要是來自孤立 經濟困難"},{"start":15192.97,"end":15193.97,"text":"照顧的資源不足"},{"start":15193.97,"end":15194.97,"text":"家庭的衝突"},{"start":15194.97,"end":15196.97,"text":"或擔心成了家人的負擔"},{"start":15196.97,"end":15198.97,"text":"我覺得我們要怎麼來"},{"start":15198.97,"end":15200.97,"text":"來介入照護的警訊"},{"start":15200.97,"end":15202.97,"text":"是不是比較重要"},{"start":15202.97,"end":15205.97,"text":"對 我覺得剛委員有秀到您的下一張"},{"start":15205.97,"end":15207.97,"text":"我覺得那個下的標題非常好"},{"start":15209.81,"end":15211.81,"text":"要真正的自主而不是無奈"},{"start":15211.81,"end":15214.81,"text":"所以這個就是在各國在推動"},{"start":15214.81,"end":15216.81,"text":"這個安樂石討論的時候"},{"start":15216.81,"end":15219.81,"text":"都會討論到的議題"},{"start":15219.81,"end":15224.81,"text":"到底這個是真正他的自主的決定"},{"start":15224.81,"end":15227.81,"text":"還是其實是還有一些社會上"},{"start":15227.81,"end":15230.81,"text":"或者是醫療上可以協助"},{"start":15230.81,"end":15232.81,"text":"或者是在經濟社會"},{"start":15232.81,"end":15235.81,"text":"那麼家庭支持等等"},{"start":15235.81,"end":15238.81,"text":"各方面那麼為盡完善"},{"start":15238.81,"end":15240.81,"text":"所以這個我想"},{"start":15240.97,"end":15244.97,"text":"這個痛苦無可忍受"},{"start":15245.72,"end":15247.72,"text":"這個如何去劃定這一條界線"},{"start":15247.72,"end":15249.72,"text":"確實是有它的難度"},{"start":15249.72,"end":15250.72,"text":"剛才聽到部長報告"},{"start":15250.72,"end":15251.72,"text":"就是大概有兩萬"},{"start":15251.72,"end":15253.72,"text":"或者是四萬的分別在"},{"start":15253.72,"end":15255.72,"text":"病人自主權利"},{"start":15255.72,"end":15259.72,"text":"或者是AID或是ACP這個部分"},{"start":15259.72,"end":15260.72,"text":"那我想說"},{"start":15260.72,"end":15262.72,"text":"我們想要知道說"},{"start":15262.72,"end":15265.72,"text":"其實這個困難點是什麼"},{"start":15265.72,"end":15266.72,"text":"還有可近性"},{"start":15266.72,"end":15268.72,"text":"其實我們常常在看這個的時候"},{"start":15268.72,"end":15271.72,"text":"我們沒有辦法看到說所得"},{"start":15271.72,"end":15273.72,"text":"有沒有一所得一地區"},{"start":15273.72,"end":15274.72,"text":"或者是疾病分類"},{"start":15274.72,"end":15275.72,"text":"獨居的狀態"},{"start":15275.72,"end":15276.72,"text":"身心障礙"},{"start":15276.72,"end":15277.72,"text":"或是原住民的身分"},{"start":15277.72,"end":15279.72,"text":"來取得這個不同的ACP"},{"start":15279.72,"end":15282.72,"text":"跟AID這個安寧服務的差異"},{"start":15282.72,"end":15283.72,"text":"我覺得這個部分"},{"start":15283.72,"end":15284.72,"text":"是不是我們政府部門"},{"start":15284.72,"end":15286.72,"text":"應該先去了解這方面的"},{"start":15286.72,"end":15288.72,"text":"一個所謂的趨勢"},{"start":15288.72,"end":15289.72,"text":"或者是分布"},{"start":15289.72,"end":15291.72,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":15291.72,"end":15294.72,"text":"我們剛剛所講的這個"},{"start":15294.72,"end":15296.72,"text":"四萬五跟兩萬六是指"},{"start":15296.72,"end":15297.72,"text":"今年新簽署的"},{"start":15297.72,"end":15299.72,"text":"事實上累積到現在"},{"start":15299.72,"end":15302.72,"text":"簽署這個安寧緩和醫療的"},{"start":15302.72,"end":15304.72,"text":"大概是一百多萬人"},{"start":15304.72,"end":15307.72,"text":"一百五十五萬人超過了"},{"start":15307.72,"end":15309.72,"text":"那至於說這個AID的話"},{"start":15309.72,"end":15311.72,"text":"累積到現在有簽署的"},{"start":15311.72,"end":15314.72,"text":"大概也十五萬五千人超過了"},{"start":15314.72,"end":15315.72,"text":"所以這個是"},{"start":15315.72,"end":15318.72,"text":"逐步逐步的在增加"},{"start":15318.72,"end":15319.72,"text":"那因為這兩邊"},{"start":15319.72,"end":15322.72,"text":"這個不一樣的地方是因為"},{"start":15322.72,"end":15327.72,"text":"我們現在這個安寧醫院的話"},{"start":15327.72,"end":15330.72,"text":"在線上也可以簽署了"},{"start":15330.72,"end":15332.72,"text":"我們也有提供一些"},{"start":15332.72,"end":15334.72,"text":"線上的一些資訊"},{"start":15334.72,"end":15336.72,"text":"然後理解之後就可以簽署"},{"start":15336.72,"end":15338.72,"text":"但是ACP的範圍又更大"},{"start":15338.72,"end":15340.72,"text":"更往前"},{"start":15340.72,"end":15344.72,"text":"所以它需要有一個ACP的過程"},{"start":15344.72,"end":15346.72,"text":"那我想那個是一個瓶頸"},{"start":15346.72,"end":15348.72,"text":"這兩個一比較就可以知道"},{"start":15348.72,"end":15351.72,"text":"但是也因為它的決定"},{"start":15353.55,"end":15355.55,"text":"更前進"},{"start":15355.55,"end":15359.55,"text":"所以它當然需要一個更嚴謹的過程"},{"start":15359.55,"end":15362.55,"text":"那我們現在也在這個"},{"start":15362.55,"end":15363.55,"text":"除了這個"},{"start":15364.3,"end":15365.3,"text":"經濟的條件"},{"start":15366.2,"end":15367.2,"text":"把它打破了"},{"start":15367.2,"end":15369.2,"text":"我們已經健保也開始給付了"},{"start":15369.2,"end":15372.2,"text":"過去完全都是自費"},{"start":15372.2,"end":15375.2,"text":"那現在也開始針對部分的對象"},{"start":15375.2,"end":15377.2,"text":"健保也有給付"},{"start":15377.2,"end":15378.2,"text":"那現在再來下一步就是"},{"start":15378.2,"end":15381.2,"text":"怎麼把量能ACP的量能擴大"},{"start":15381.2,"end":15383.2,"text":"可能這是我們下一步"},{"start":15383.2,"end":15384.2,"text":"要來處理的"},{"start":15384.2,"end":15387.2,"text":"所以我想說是不是應該去調查那個原因"},{"start":15387.2,"end":15389.2,"text":"就是沒有參與這個預定"},{"start":15389.2,"end":15390.2,"text":"醫療決定的原因"},{"start":15390.2,"end":15392.2,"text":"比如說是不是資訊不足"},{"start":15392.2,"end":15394.2,"text":"還是剛剛你講的費用不負擔"},{"start":15394.2,"end":15396.2,"text":"增生的時間是不是太長"},{"start":15396.2,"end":15397.2,"text":"院所的距離"},{"start":15397.2,"end":15399.2,"text":"家屬參與的困難度"},{"start":15399.2,"end":15402.2,"text":"還是所在地根本就沒有這樣那個服務量能"},{"start":15402.2,"end":15404.2,"text":"我覺得這個部分還是要去做統計"},{"start":15404.2,"end":15407.2,"text":"最後就是面對這樣的一個法案的時候"},{"start":15407.2,"end":15411.2,"text":"是不是政府應該來建立分階段可落實的一個政策"},{"start":15411.2,"end":15412.2,"text":"不是一步到位"},{"start":15412.2,"end":15416.2,"text":"比如說以後是不是法院需要介入比較困難的一個案件"},{"start":15416.2,"end":15419.2,"text":"或者是說要去研議的時候"},{"start":15419.2,"end":15421.2,"text":"是不是將不同的制度分層比較"},{"start":15421.2,"end":15423.2,"text":"來看看哪些是適用"},{"start":15423.2,"end":15425.2,"text":"程序保障跟他的法律效果"},{"start":15425.2,"end":15430.2,"text":"我覺得這些部分可能都應該是分階段來實施的"},{"start":15430.2,"end":15433.2,"text":"好 跟委員說明確實這個"},{"start":15433.2,"end":15438.2,"text":"這個簽署AD會不會有地域還有這個落差"},{"start":15438.2,"end":15440.2,"text":"不平等的這些落差"},{"start":15440.2,"end":15443.2,"text":"那因為過去都是比較自願性自費的"},{"start":15443.2,"end":15445.2,"text":"我們比較沒有這個資料"},{"start":15445.2,"end":15448.2,"text":"但是因為我們從去年開始納入健保給付"},{"start":15448.2,"end":15450.2,"text":"那這個就有資料了"},{"start":15450.2,"end":15453.2,"text":"所以我會請健保來分析一下"},{"start":15453.2,"end":15457.2,"text":"那麼過去所簽署的這些AD的對象"},{"start":15457.2,"end":15460.2,"text":"有沒有地域落差或者是年齡"},{"start":15460.2,"end":15464.2,"text":"什麼什麼做進一步的一些分析之後"},{"start":15464.2,"end":15468.2,"text":"來調整這個後續推動的政策"},{"start":15468.2,"end":15471.2,"text":"講到現在從我們的研談當中"},{"start":15471.2,"end":15475.2,"text":"應該就可以隱約的知道我們是支持這個法案的"},{"start":15475.2,"end":15478.2,"text":"當然就醫生的一個角色的立場來看"},{"start":15478.2,"end":15480.2,"text":"可是我們面對這樣一個"},{"start":15480.2,"end":15483.2,"text":"比如說他有一個刑事責任、醫療責任、保險的效果"},{"start":15483.2,"end":15487.2,"text":"實行證明、司法相驗、藥品管理、病歷、資料治理"},{"start":15487.2,"end":15490.2,"text":"這些種種的這些項目要去考量的時候"},{"start":15490.2,"end":15495.2,"text":"我會覺得這是真的是要脫銅法務部、金管會、內政部相關機關"},{"start":15495.2,"end":15497.2,"text":"做一個跨部會的評估的平台"},{"start":15497.2,"end":15500.2,"text":"不然把重彈如果只有在衛福部的話"},{"start":15500.2,"end":15502.2,"text":"我就覺得你們太辛苦了"},{"start":15502.2,"end":15504.2,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":15504.2,"end":15507.2,"text":"我們就把這件事情來分階段準備完成"},{"start":15507.2,"end":15508.2,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15508.2,"end":15509.2,"text":"謝謝 委員"},{"start":15509.2,"end":15511.2,"text":"好 謝謝盧縣議長發言"},{"start":15511.2,"end":15513.2,"text":"接下來請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":15518.21,"end":15523.21,"text":"謝謝主席特別允許在休息預定休息時間前允許我加號"},{"start":15523.21,"end":15525.21,"text":"謝謝 那有請石部長"},{"start":15525.21,"end":15526.21,"text":"有請石部長"},{"start":15528.76,"end":15529.76,"text":"好 部長好"},{"start":15529.76,"end":15531.76,"text":"部長好 希望您沒有答案"},{"start":15531.76,"end":15533.76,"text":"我一直在 謝謝部長關係"},{"start":15533.76,"end":15536.76,"text":"您知道我一直在醫院工作40年"},{"start":15536.76,"end":15538.76,"text":"然後有30年時間是在癌症醫院工作"},{"start":15538.76,"end":15540.76,"text":"那我想我非常清楚"},{"start":15540.76,"end":15543.76,"text":"您我都非常清楚醫學的能跟不能"},{"start":15543.76,"end":15546.76,"text":"醫學有其極限它不是萬能"},{"start":15546.76,"end":15548.76,"text":"但是當一位當事人"},{"start":15548.76,"end":15551.76,"text":"他明知道自己的疾病是無解無救"},{"start":15551.76,"end":15553.76,"text":"而且一定會繼續惡化"},{"start":15553.76,"end":15556.76,"text":"那這個時候他也會希望說"},{"start":15556.76,"end":15558.76,"text":"在他有限的時間當中"},{"start":15558.76,"end":15560.76,"text":"他能夠趁他還清醒的時候"},{"start":15560.76,"end":15562.76,"text":"為自己做一些安排跟決定"},{"start":15562.76,"end":15564.76,"text":"而不是讓自己承受更多痛苦"},{"start":15564.76,"end":15565.76,"text":"而且很重要"},{"start":15565.76,"end":15570.76,"text":"讓家屬也在經歷無比沉重的一個不捨"},{"start":15570.76,"end":15571.76,"text":"那前陣子柯P"},{"start":15571.76,"end":15573.76,"text":"我知道剛剛邱委員提到"},{"start":15573.76,"end":15574.76,"text":"跟一位這個罹患"},{"start":15574.76,"end":15575.76,"text":"他的遺傳性"},{"start":15575.76,"end":15578.76,"text":"曾經退化性的喊病病人對談"},{"start":15578.76,"end":15581.76,"text":"那當事人決定在48歲的時候執行安樂死"},{"start":15581.76,"end":15583.76,"text":"部長你現在看到這位男士"},{"start":15583.76,"end":15585.76,"text":"他已經離開事件了"},{"start":15585.76,"end":15587.76,"text":"他姊姊也取到相同的資格"},{"start":15587.76,"end":15588.76,"text":"但是他非常偉大"},{"start":15588.76,"end":15590.76,"text":"他決定來善後"},{"start":15590.76,"end":15592.76,"text":"那為什麼48歲要決定"},{"start":15592.76,"end":15593.76,"text":"就是做安樂死呢"},{"start":15593.76,"end":15596.76,"text":"因為他親眼照顧他的媽媽"},{"start":15596.76,"end":15599.76,"text":"他知道他將來會變成什麼樣子"},{"start":15599.76,"end":15601.76,"text":"他完全去了解"},{"start":15601.76,"end":15602.76,"text":"所以就是希望他能夠"},{"start":15602.76,"end":15603.76,"text":"做一些自主的決定"},{"start":15603.76,"end":15604.76,"text":"在這個時候"},{"start":15604.76,"end":15607.76,"text":"那這位當事人我想跟部長報告"},{"start":15607.76,"end":15609.76,"text":"他完成了學業"},{"start":15609.76,"end":15610.76,"text":"他照顧了家人"},{"start":15610.76,"end":15612.76,"text":"他結交了朋友"},{"start":15612.76,"end":15614.76,"text":"而且他有朋友陪他到瑞士"},{"start":15614.76,"end":15615.76,"text":"去執行"},{"start":15615.76,"end":15618.76,"text":"可見他並不是一個輕視生命"},{"start":15618.76,"end":15620.76,"text":"或隨意去放棄生命的人"},{"start":15620.76,"end":15622.76,"text":"反而倒是說他有掌握"},{"start":15622.76,"end":15624.76,"text":"自己生命的價值跟這個意義"},{"start":15624.76,"end":15626.76,"text":"他不是長短的問題"},{"start":15626.76,"end":15628.76,"text":"而是說他希望能夠活出"},{"start":15628.76,"end":15630.76,"text":"他最卑微的一個期待"},{"start":15630.76,"end":15634.76,"text":"那這個我想再跟部長分享一下"},{"start":15634.76,"end":15636.76,"text":"這個當然目前的民調顯示"},{"start":15636.76,"end":15638.76,"text":"我相信很多人都提到"},{"start":15638.76,"end":15640.76,"text":"台灣大概75%以上是支持的"},{"start":15641.76,"end":15644.76,"text":"那台灣尊嚴善忠諮詢服務協會"},{"start":15644.76,"end":15646.76,"text":"他們成立八年"},{"start":15646.76,"end":15648.76,"text":"有五千多人前來諮詢"},{"start":15648.76,"end":15650.76,"text":"有一百多人已經取得"},{"start":15650.76,"end":15653.76,"text":"瑞士的安樂死的資格"},{"start":15653.76,"end":15655.76,"text":"那其中還有一半的人"},{"start":15655.76,"end":15656.76,"text":"他已經執行了"},{"start":15656.76,"end":15658.76,"text":"換句話說他們已經離開人世了"},{"start":15658.76,"end":15659.76,"text":"那部長你想想看"},{"start":15659.76,"end":15660.76,"text":"如果還有選擇"},{"start":15660.76,"end":15662.76,"text":"誰願意離開自己的家"},{"start":15663.32,"end":15664.32,"text":"誰願意離開自己的親人"},{"start":15664.32,"end":15666.32,"text":"到那麼遠的地方"},{"start":15668.19,"end":15670.19,"text":"所以最後只會讓相對的"},{"start":15670.19,"end":15672.19,"text":"其實可能會繞得跟單元一樣"},{"start":15672.19,"end":15673.19,"text":"有資源的人"},{"start":15673.19,"end":15675.19,"text":"因為這個是一筆一大筆費用"},{"start":15675.19,"end":15677.19,"text":"也不能全部人隨行"},{"start":15677.19,"end":15680.19,"text":"才有辦法帶海外來執行這個善忠"},{"start":15680.19,"end":15681.19,"text":"但是在台灣就苦苦的"},{"start":15681.19,"end":15683.19,"text":"等待痛苦"},{"start":15683.19,"end":15685.19,"text":"剛剛王振旭委員談到這個疼痛"},{"start":15685.19,"end":15688.19,"text":"其實我覺得一個是病痛"},{"start":15688.19,"end":15690.19,"text":"一個叫痛苦叫suffer"},{"start":15690.19,"end":15691.19,"text":"有病痛"},{"start":15691.19,"end":15693.19,"text":"但是還有心理的受傷"},{"start":15693.19,"end":15695.19,"text":"但我也不斷地用這兩個"},{"start":15695.19,"end":15696.19,"text":"安寧緩和條"},{"start":15696.19,"end":15697.19,"text":"跟病人自治條"},{"start":15697.19,"end":15699.19,"text":"說這個可以來符合期待"},{"start":15699.19,"end":15700.19,"text":"就現階段"},{"start":15700.19,"end":15701.19,"text":"我知道剛剛之前"},{"start":15701.19,"end":15703.19,"text":"我都有聽到您的回答"},{"start":15703.19,"end":15704.19,"text":"但是我要講的"},{"start":15704.19,"end":15705.19,"text":"我們也都清楚"},{"start":15705.19,"end":15707.19,"text":"有很多並不適合"},{"start":15707.19,"end":15710.19,"text":"他並沒有完全含刮每個人的期待"},{"start":15710.19,"end":15712.19,"text":"所以以剛剛我提到這位男士"},{"start":15712.19,"end":15714.19,"text":"這個48歲的男士"},{"start":15714.19,"end":15715.19,"text":"柯P跟他對談的男士"},{"start":15715.19,"end":15717.19,"text":"你知道他並不符合"},{"start":15717.19,"end":15718.19,"text":"因為他意識非常的清醒"},{"start":15718.19,"end":15721.19,"text":"他連這前面兩條都不符合"},{"start":15721.19,"end":15723.19,"text":"所以你想他要經歷過多少"},{"start":15723.19,"end":15725.19,"text":"大小便失禁的夜晚"},{"start":15725.19,"end":15728.19,"text":"他還要爬在地上爬行多久"},{"start":15729.79,"end":15730.79,"text":"他還要眼睜睜看著自己"},{"start":15730.79,"end":15732.79,"text":"病情惡化多長的時間"},{"start":15732.79,"end":15734.79,"text":"他才能夠符合前兩項"},{"start":15734.79,"end":15736.79,"text":"部長在之前的會議上"},{"start":15736.79,"end":15737.79,"text":"您開口"},{"start":15737.79,"end":15738.79,"text":"您今天有稍微改口了"},{"start":15738.79,"end":15739.79,"text":"一開始就說"},{"start":15739.79,"end":15740.79,"text":"Andros有很大的爭議"},{"start":15740.79,"end":15741.79,"text":"其實您對單元也是這樣"},{"start":15741.79,"end":15743.79,"text":"這個單元有很大爭議"},{"start":15743.79,"end":15744.79,"text":"所以您那時候拒絕討論"},{"start":15744.79,"end":15746.79,"text":"那我今天聽到您"},{"start":15746.79,"end":15747.79,"text":"有開始做一些修正"},{"start":15747.79,"end":15749.79,"text":"那部長我要提醒你"},{"start":15749.79,"end":15750.79,"text":"不要輕易地談"},{"start":15750.79,"end":15752.79,"text":"天下室這個很有爭議"},{"start":15752.79,"end":15755.79,"text":"請問天下室哪一件事沒有爭議"},{"start":15755.79,"end":15757.79,"text":"請允許我這樣說"},{"start":15757.79,"end":15759.79,"text":"你現在在您的位置上"},{"start":15759.79,"end":15761.79,"text":"也很有爭議"},{"start":15761.79,"end":15763.79,"text":"您知道我談的是什麼"},{"start":15763.79,"end":15764.79,"text":"那您常常用這個"},{"start":15764.79,"end":15766.79,"text":"我們會提高篩檢的補助"},{"start":15766.79,"end":15769.79,"text":"我們會加速含病含藥的給付"},{"start":15769.79,"end":15770.79,"text":"我們要完善長照體系"},{"start":15770.79,"end":15773.79,"text":"對他們來說都是非常的刺耳"},{"start":15773.79,"end":15774.79,"text":"就是非常的痛心"},{"start":15774.79,"end":15775.79,"text":"因為這個對他們都毫無幫助"},{"start":15775.79,"end":15778.79,"text":"也不能減輕他們的疼痛"},{"start":15778.79,"end":15779.79,"text":"所以我現在請問"},{"start":15779.79,"end":15781.79,"text":"我要請問這個部長"},{"start":15781.79,"end":15782.79,"text":"這個說法有點像次長罪"},{"start":15782.79,"end":15783.79,"text":"林次長罪在講"},{"start":15783.79,"end":15785.79,"text":"叫做站著講話要不疼"},{"start":15785.79,"end":15786.79,"text":"部長就是說"},{"start":15786.79,"end":15788.79,"text":"您到底要臨時這群病人多久"},{"start":15788.79,"end":15789.79,"text":"就像我問你"},{"start":15789.79,"end":15791.79,"text":"你要臨時沒有子宮的病人多久"},{"start":15791.79,"end":15793.79,"text":"還要30年嗎"},{"start":15793.79,"end":15795.79,"text":"老實說我對於"},{"start":15795.79,"end":15797.79,"text":"我們是20幾年的好朋友"},{"start":15797.79,"end":15798.79,"text":"我必須告訴你"},{"start":15798.79,"end":15799.79,"text":"您這個說法"},{"start":15799.79,"end":15800.79,"text":"您這樣的做法"},{"start":15800.79,"end":15802.79,"text":"你不讓人家生"},{"start":15802.79,"end":15803.79,"text":"也不讓人家死"},{"start":15803.79,"end":15807.79,"text":"我覺得是很冷酷無情到極致"},{"start":15807.79,"end":15808.79,"text":"我希望您回家後"},{"start":15808.79,"end":15809.79,"text":"能夠思考一下"},{"start":15809.79,"end":15810.79,"text":"我今天跟你講的話"},{"start":15810.79,"end":15812.79,"text":"我們是幾十年的好朋友"},{"start":15812.79,"end":15813.79,"text":"你回家想"},{"start":15813.79,"end":15814.79,"text":"真的你要讓這些人"},{"start":15814.79,"end":15817.79,"text":"讓有一些人想生也不能生"},{"start":15817.79,"end":15819.79,"text":"想死也不能死"},{"start":15819.79,"end":15820.79,"text":"那部長不好意思"},{"start":15820.79,"end":15821.79,"text":"我再修正您剛剛的一段"},{"start":15821.79,"end":15823.79,"text":"您剛剛有提到說"},{"start":15823.79,"end":15824.79,"text":"跟對別人"},{"start":15824.79,"end":15826.79,"text":"說難以忍受痛苦很難定義"},{"start":15826.79,"end":15827.79,"text":"部長您錯了"},{"start":15827.79,"end":15828.79,"text":"您還記得痛怎麼定義嗎"},{"start":15828.79,"end":15830.79,"text":"當病人說痛他就是痛"},{"start":15830.79,"end":15832.79,"text":"沒有人可以否認這件事"},{"start":15832.79,"end":15834.79,"text":"好吧請部長回去再思考"},{"start":15834.79,"end":15836.79,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":15836.79,"end":15838.79,"text":"謝謝陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":15838.79,"end":15840.79,"text":"現在休息30分鐘"},{"start":15856.96,"end":15858.96,"text":"OK"},{"start":15862.33,"end":15863.33,"text":"我們下山就回來"},{"start":15864.64,"end":15865.64,"text":"休息30分鐘"},{"start":18251.47,"end":18252.47,"text":"我們現在繼續開會"},{"start":18252.47,"end":18254.47,"text":"現在我們請民宿賓務委員發言"},{"start":18257.31,"end":18258.31,"text":"會議結束"},{"start":18264.54,"end":18266.54,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":18266.54,"end":18267.54,"text":"有請石部長"},{"start":18267.54,"end":18268.54,"text":"有請石部長"},{"start":18273.21,"end":18274.21,"text":"劉委員好"},{"start":18274.21,"end":18276.21,"text":"好部長好"},{"start":18276.21,"end":18280.21,"text":"那請問部長對於前體育的知名主播"},{"start":18280.21,"end":18283.21,"text":"傅達仁他在2018年遠赴瑞士"},{"start":18283.21,"end":18284.21,"text":"去進行安樂死"},{"start":18284.21,"end":18285.21,"text":"有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":18285.6,"end":18287.6,"text":"我想每一個個案的背後"},{"start":18287.6,"end":18291.6,"text":"都是有值得我們大家很深刻的故事"},{"start":18291.6,"end":18295.6,"text":"所以對於這個傅先生"},{"start":18295.6,"end":18298.6,"text":"最後的這個傅瑞士的這個"},{"start":18298.6,"end":18299.6,"text":"當然"},{"start":18299.6,"end":18302.6,"text":"他的想法是想要出安樂死合法化"},{"start":18302.6,"end":18304.6,"text":"我們真的是想"},{"start":18304.6,"end":18307.6,"text":"到底還有沒有其他的方法可以幫忙他"},{"start":18307.6,"end":18309.6,"text":"好那您有在想就對了"},{"start":18309.6,"end":18310.6,"text":"部長也在講"},{"start":18310.6,"end":18311.6,"text":"那我們再繼續往下看"},{"start":18311.6,"end":18315.6,"text":"就是請問您對於說"},{"start":18315.6,"end":18317.6,"text":"台灣民眾黨他之前提出來的"},{"start":18317.6,"end":18320.6,"text":"尊嚴善忠安樂死法制化的公投"},{"start":18320.6,"end":18323.6,"text":"那這個案子也送到立法院再做審議了"},{"start":18323.6,"end":18326.6,"text":"那你初聽到這樣的一個公投案的提出"},{"start":18326.6,"end":18328.6,"text":"您第一時間的看法是什麼"},{"start":18329.79,"end":18331.79,"text":"我認為這個議題這個"},{"start":18331.79,"end":18334.79,"text":"涉及到生命"},{"start":18334.79,"end":18338.79,"text":"所以我們在這個對於這種生命的尊重的議題"},{"start":18338.79,"end":18341.79,"text":"那麼應該要更廣泛深度的討論"},{"start":18341.79,"end":18344.79,"text":"像我們今天在立法院有多位委員"},{"start":18344.79,"end":18347.79,"text":"也都指出了非常深刻的意見"},{"start":18347.79,"end":18351.79,"text":"那麼這裡面不只是醫療專業的單獨的判斷"},{"start":18351.79,"end":18353.79,"text":"還包含了社會的支持"},{"start":18353.79,"end":18355.79,"text":"家庭弱勢等等"},{"start":18355.79,"end":18358.79,"text":"跟這個價值觀"},{"start":18358.79,"end":18360.79,"text":"所以這個影響層面是很大的"},{"start":18360.79,"end":18364.79,"text":"所以我才會希望大家審思"},{"start":18364.79,"end":18366.79,"text":"我們可以來開放多一點討論"},{"start":18366.79,"end":18370.79,"text":"那但是直接以公投的方式"},{"start":18370.79,"end":18373.79,"text":"那可能會過於太簡略了"},{"start":18373.79,"end":18376.79,"text":"你這樣講我們現在這不是01的問題"},{"start":18376.79,"end":18377.79,"text":"所以對沒錯沒錯"},{"start":18377.79,"end":18379.79,"text":"不會以公投有相關的法制程序"},{"start":18379.79,"end":18380.79,"text":"我們先看一下"},{"start":18380.79,"end":18382.79,"text":"已經8年過去了"},{"start":18382.79,"end":18386.79,"text":"到現在為止像包括剛才部長您所說的"},{"start":18386.79,"end":18389.79,"text":"台灣並未朝向安樂死合法化的方向在研議"},{"start":18389.79,"end":18390.79,"text":"對不對"},{"start":18390.79,"end":18392.79,"text":"那就是說到現在你今天回答之前"},{"start":18392.79,"end":18394.79,"text":"那重點就檢視"},{"start":18394.79,"end":18396.79,"text":"重點現在把它放在安寧緩和醫療"},{"start":18396.79,"end":18398.79,"text":"病人自主跟長照照顧"},{"start":18398.79,"end":18400.79,"text":"長照制度是否有人有不足"},{"start":18400.79,"end":18404.79,"text":"並評估說相關法制是不是能夠跟政策銜接"},{"start":18404.79,"end":18406.79,"text":"是否更完善對不對"},{"start":18406.79,"end":18407.79,"text":"這是過去的時候"},{"start":18409.7,"end":18414.7,"text":"我想不論是貴黨所提出的安樂死法案"},{"start":18414.7,"end":18418.7,"text":"或者是目前法律上所許可的安寧緩和"},{"start":18418.7,"end":18421.7,"text":"或病除法其實目標是一致的"},{"start":18421.7,"end":18424.7,"text":"都是希望讓尊嚴善終"},{"start":18424.7,"end":18427.7,"text":"而這個社會是會不斷的進步"},{"start":18427.7,"end":18430.7,"text":"像我們這個安寧緩和條例"},{"start":18430.7,"end":18432.7,"text":"也是在2000年才通過立法"},{"start":18432.7,"end":18434.7,"text":"在2000年之前"},{"start":18434.7,"end":18437.7,"text":"八年也是經過很長一段時間的討論"},{"start":18437.7,"end":18439.7,"text":"我知道你的答案都是這樣子"},{"start":18439.7,"end":18442.7,"text":"就是應該就繼續的把制度上面把它精進"},{"start":18444.78,"end":18446.78,"text":"但是從2018年到現在"},{"start":18446.78,"end":18449.78,"text":"基本上沒有特別對"},{"start":18450.84,"end":18451.84,"text":"這兩個三個法案的"},{"start":18451.84,"end":18454.84,"text":"就是這兩個最重要是安寧緩和跟病人自主"},{"start":18454.84,"end":18455.84,"text":"有比較做改變"},{"start":18455.84,"end":18456.84,"text":"當然是對那個"},{"start":18458.87,"end":18459.87,"text":"有加強嘛對不對"},{"start":18459.87,"end":18462.87,"text":"但是呢現在看法還是繼續在研議的話"},{"start":18462.87,"end":18464.87,"text":"就會有出現到一個很大的問題是"},{"start":18464.87,"end":18465.87,"text":"沒有辦法現實的沒有"},{"start":18465.87,"end":18467.87,"text":"就是沒有辦法八年過去"},{"start":18467.87,"end":18468.87,"text":"也沒辦法出現出現的問題啦"},{"start":18468.87,"end":18470.87,"text":"跟委員說明其實"},{"start":18470.87,"end":18474.87,"text":"這個2000年是以這個安寧條例"},{"start":18474.87,"end":18476.87,"text":"那麼安寧緩和條例呢"},{"start":18476.87,"end":18478.87,"text":"它是針對生命末期"},{"start":18478.87,"end":18481.87,"text":"那但是到了病除法我們又往前一步"},{"start":18481.87,"end":18484.87,"text":"這裡面包含不可逆的昏迷"},{"start":18484.87,"end":18486.87,"text":"包含植物人的狀態"},{"start":18486.87,"end":18487.87,"text":"包含嚴重的失智"},{"start":18487.87,"end":18490.87,"text":"我們都已經納入適用的對象"},{"start":18490.87,"end":18493.87,"text":"其實經過從2000年到2018年"},{"start":18493.87,"end":18497.87,"text":"這中間又有了一些討論之後才又往前了一步"},{"start":18497.87,"end":18500.87,"text":"對但是2018年部長您的問題"},{"start":18500.87,"end":18504.87,"text":"是在2018年到2026年的部分"},{"start":18504.87,"end":18507.87,"text":"我剛才已經說你最重要是放在自主的"},{"start":18507.87,"end":18509.87,"text":"醫主的這邊預立"},{"start":18509.87,"end":18512.87,"text":"醫主這部分有多了這個資訊等等的"},{"start":18512.87,"end":18514.87,"text":"可是現在就是說2018年到現在"},{"start":18514.87,"end":18515.87,"text":"沒有太多的影響"},{"start":18515.87,"end":18517.87,"text":"我現在重點是要跟大家講的是"},{"start":18517.87,"end":18521.87,"text":"我們本身我想問的是部長您知不知道"},{"start":18521.87,"end":18523.87,"text":"如果是這樣子的一個做法的話"},{"start":18523.87,"end":18527.87,"text":"對於非常多的罹患不可治癒疾病"},{"start":18527.87,"end":18531.87,"text":"且長期去承受難以緩解的這個身心痛苦的人"},{"start":18531.87,"end":18533.87,"text":"他是沒有尊嚴在那活著"},{"start":18533.87,"end":18536.87,"text":"那很多人他是生不如死"},{"start":18536.87,"end":18537.87,"text":"這樣的情況之下"},{"start":18537.87,"end":18539.87,"text":"您其實是剝奪他的生命自主"},{"start":18539.87,"end":18542.87,"text":"跟選擇善終的權利"},{"start":18542.87,"end":18544.87,"text":"那我這邊要跟部長詢問的是說"},{"start":18544.87,"end":18548.87,"text":"請問您知道說如果一個公投的這個案子"},{"start":18548.87,"end":18551.87,"text":"如果現在民眾黨的部分"},{"start":18551.87,"end":18554.87,"text":"現在他提出來8月份預計"},{"start":18554.87,"end":18556.87,"text":"那如果順利通過的話"},{"start":18556.87,"end":18558.87,"text":"中選會會在8月做審議"},{"start":18558.87,"end":18560.87,"text":"那如果順利的話"},{"start":18560.87,"end":18562.87,"text":"預定是排定到11月份的時候"},{"start":18562.87,"end":18564.87,"text":"要做公投的這個投票"},{"start":18564.87,"end":18566.87,"text":"那您知道他會有經過"},{"start":18566.87,"end":18569.87,"text":"在真正的11月在做投票的時候"},{"start":18569.87,"end":18571.87,"text":"之前會經過哪些程序嗎"},{"start":18573.4,"end":18574.4,"text":"大概了解"},{"start":18574.4,"end":18576.4,"text":"但是這個時間太短了"},{"start":18576.4,"end":18577.4,"text":"太短了"},{"start":18577.4,"end":18578.4,"text":"這個只是表示意願而已"},{"start":18578.4,"end":18580.4,"text":"部長這只是表示意願而已"},{"start":18580.4,"end":18581.4,"text":"我就要跟你講"},{"start":18581.4,"end":18583.4,"text":"你跟他說之前都沒有溝通"},{"start":18583.4,"end":18585.4,"text":"我現在就跟你講這個法律程序是這樣子"},{"start":18585.4,"end":18587.4,"text":"第一個最重要的是"},{"start":18587.4,"end":18591.4,"text":"他至少要舉辦五場的電視發表會跟辯論會"},{"start":18591.4,"end":18595.4,"text":"那當然正反的辦事處都會呈現宣傳等等的"},{"start":18595.4,"end":18598.4,"text":"那如果這邊如果表示意見在這個過程當中"},{"start":18598.4,"end":18599.4,"text":"但是因為是長期有出現"},{"start":18599.4,"end":18601.4,"text":"那我們繼續往下看"},{"start":18601.4,"end":18602.4,"text":"這公投程序之後"},{"start":18602.4,"end":18605.4,"text":"如果安樂死的一個公投把他"},{"start":18605.4,"end":18607.4,"text":"這個公投的法制"},{"start":18607.4,"end":18609.4,"text":"安樂死的"},{"start":18610.47,"end":18612.47,"text":"法制化公投如果通過"},{"start":18612.47,"end":18613.47,"text":"因為我們現在知道"},{"start":18613.47,"end":18615.47,"text":"至少看到2023年的這個"},{"start":18615.47,"end":18616.47,"text":"一個公投"},{"start":18616.47,"end":18618.47,"text":"就是民調的意見表示出來"},{"start":18618.47,"end":18619.47,"text":"是大概七成五是支持"},{"start":18619.47,"end":18620.47,"text":"那大家你知道嗎"},{"start":18620.47,"end":18622.47,"text":"公投如果通過的話"},{"start":18622.47,"end":18623.47,"text":"我現在跟你講"},{"start":18623.47,"end":18624.47,"text":"您知道嗎"},{"start":18624.47,"end":18626.47,"text":"以公投法第30條"},{"start":18626.47,"end":18627.47,"text":"它裡面有說"},{"start":18627.47,"end":18631.47,"text":"就是政府行政院必須要三個月之內"},{"start":18631.47,"end":18634.47,"text":"研擬相關的法律要送到立法院"},{"start":18634.47,"end":18639.47,"text":"那立法院就必須要在下一個會期休會之前來完成審議"},{"start":18639.47,"end":18642.47,"text":"表示這個過程當中就會有出現到"},{"start":18643.19,"end":18644.19,"text":"最快的情況之下"},{"start":18644.19,"end":18645.19,"text":"順利通過的話"},{"start":18645.19,"end":18648.19,"text":"就是會在九個月到半年到一年的時間之內"},{"start":18648.19,"end":18651.19,"text":"就會有這個過程就出現了"},{"start":18651.19,"end":18653.19,"text":"所以這個部分我跟你們講"},{"start":18653.19,"end":18656.19,"text":"這就是本身的民眾黨對於"},{"start":18656.19,"end":18659.19,"text":"有這樣子難以承受的痛苦"},{"start":18659.19,"end":18661.19,"text":"而且是無法治癒疾病的人"},{"start":18661.19,"end":18663.19,"text":"最重要的一種承諾"},{"start":18663.19,"end":18665.19,"text":"所以我這次要知道是說"},{"start":18665.19,"end":18666.19,"text":"如果你知道這個程序"},{"start":18666.19,"end":18667.19,"text":"就是要說"},{"start":18667.19,"end":18669.19,"text":"可以加速公投就是在"},{"start":18669.19,"end":18670.19,"text":"包括陳冠廷委員"},{"start":18670.19,"end":18672.19,"text":"他去年他提出來了"},{"start":18672.19,"end":18674.19,"text":"包括2019年的時候"},{"start":18674.19,"end":18676.19,"text":"有在野黨民進民眾黨也提出來"},{"start":18676.19,"end":18679.19,"text":"就是要做這項這上面的推進"},{"start":18679.19,"end":18680.19,"text":"這制度就知道了"},{"start":18680.19,"end":18681.19,"text":"然後最後的部分"},{"start":18681.19,"end":18684.19,"text":"我就問一下安樂死如果法制化成功之後"},{"start":18684.19,"end":18685.19,"text":"這是假設的"},{"start":18685.19,"end":18686.19,"text":"但是你知道"},{"start":18686.19,"end":18687.19,"text":"我知道這是非常影響到很多的"},{"start":18687.19,"end":18689.19,"text":"那安樂死的相關法制要修訂"},{"start":18689.19,"end":18691.19,"text":"劉委員要注意時間"},{"start":18691.19,"end":18694.19,"text":"我想在這個貴黨所提出的版本"},{"start":18694.19,"end":18695.19,"text":"就可以看得到"},{"start":18695.19,"end":18699.19,"text":"其實這公投的這個安樂死的內涵"},{"start":18699.19,"end":18701.19,"text":"是非常複雜的"},{"start":18701.19,"end":18703.19,"text":"所以用這個這麼複雜的內容"},{"start":18703.19,"end":18707.19,"text":"以單純的一個yes or no的公投方式來執行"},{"start":18707.19,"end":18709.19,"text":"你完全忽略了我剛才所說的一個"},{"start":18709.19,"end":18711.19,"text":"溝通諮詢程序"},{"start":18711.19,"end":18713.19,"text":"那包括本身如果公投法通過的話"},{"start":18713.19,"end":18714.19,"text":"那個公投通過的話"},{"start":18714.19,"end":18717.19,"text":"公投法30條的適用就會立即實施"},{"start":18717.19,"end":18719.19,"text":"沒有充分的溝通"},{"start":18719.19,"end":18722.19,"text":"這個大家的心中的想像都不一樣"},{"start":18722.19,"end":18723.19,"text":"這個如何公投"},{"start":18723.19,"end":18725.19,"text":"我真的是很大的懷疑"},{"start":18725.19,"end":18727.19,"text":"這部分就是依照民意的決定"},{"start":18727.19,"end":18728.19,"text":"劉委員注意時間"},{"start":18729.48,"end":18731.48,"text":"好 謝謝劉主賓委員發言"},{"start":18731.48,"end":18733.48,"text":"接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":18739.55,"end":18741.55,"text":"來有請部長"},{"start":18742.57,"end":18744.57,"text":"部長辛苦了"},{"start":18744.57,"end":18745.57,"text":"好 非常好"},{"start":18745.57,"end":18747.57,"text":"那也謝謝找我今天特別排"},{"start":18747.57,"end":18750.57,"text":"這樣的一個議案來做討論"},{"start":18750.57,"end":18752.57,"text":"我想兩點"},{"start":18752.57,"end":18755.57,"text":"第一也就是審查委員陳冠廷等18人"},{"start":18755.57,"end":18757.57,"text":"凝聚了安樂死的這個草案"},{"start":18757.57,"end":18759.57,"text":"那第二個也剛剛特別去提到了"},{"start":18759.57,"end":18765.57,"text":"台灣民眾黨也特別有提出凝聚尊嚴慎忠法的草案"},{"start":18765.57,"end":18767.57,"text":"我想這都是非常嚴謹"},{"start":18767.57,"end":18770.57,"text":"必須非常慎重去面對的相關的法案"},{"start":18770.57,"end":18772.57,"text":"那等同於是立法院"},{"start":18772.57,"end":18774.57,"text":"不是沒有這些草案"},{"start":18774.57,"end":18778.57,"text":"而是已有這樣的草案在等待要討論"},{"start":18778.57,"end":18779.57,"text":"那再會講"},{"start":18779.57,"end":18783.57,"text":"這樣就應該就進到委員會來做實質的討論"},{"start":18783.57,"end":18785.57,"text":"這才是正道"},{"start":18785.57,"end":18786.57,"text":"才是正道"},{"start":18786.57,"end":18792.57,"text":"怎麼會有在野黨的同仁會破天荒的把安樂死"},{"start":18792.57,"end":18794.57,"text":"這何等嚴肅"},{"start":18794.57,"end":18795.57,"text":"然後複雜"},{"start":18795.57,"end":18797.57,"text":"然後慎重的議題"},{"start":18797.57,"end":18801.57,"text":"然後輕率的要來舉行這個公投來做處理"},{"start":18801.57,"end":18802.57,"text":"我覺得這是"},{"start":18802.57,"end":18807.57,"text":"這真的是有愧這個全民一票一票"},{"start":18807.57,"end":18812.57,"text":"給我們這些立委的這樣的一個責任跟期待"},{"start":18812.57,"end":18815.57,"text":"所以我還是希望我們立法院可以發揮專業"},{"start":18815.57,"end":18820.57,"text":"然後制定出這個更嚴謹的法律"},{"start":18820.57,"end":18824.57,"text":"來做對於福國立民的這樣的一個目標來打拼"},{"start":18824.57,"end":18828.57,"text":"那國會也有建置公共政策網路平台的參與"},{"start":18828.57,"end":18830.57,"text":"民眾還可以在這個平台提供意見"},{"start":18830.57,"end":18832.57,"text":"然後提議在開放"},{"start":18832.57,"end":18835.57,"text":"呼籲後六十天內還獲得這個五千份以上"},{"start":18835.57,"end":18838.57,"text":"就可以呼籲集成案"},{"start":18838.57,"end":18842.57,"text":"那成案後全者機關就必須依照公共政策網路參與"},{"start":18842.57,"end":18843.57,"text":"實質要點"},{"start":18843.57,"end":18845.57,"text":"在成案後的六十天內"},{"start":18845.57,"end":18846.57,"text":"於平台上做出回應"},{"start":18846.57,"end":18849.57,"text":"所以這個平台有關於人類安樂死的提議"},{"start":18849.57,"end":18853.57,"text":"從2016起用至今累積有四十個提議"},{"start":18853.57,"end":18857.57,"text":"都是沒有達到五千份的呼籲門檻"},{"start":18857.57,"end":18861.57,"text":"那這個平台上有達到五千份以上的"},{"start":18861.57,"end":18864.57,"text":"這個民間安樂死的提議只有兩案"},{"start":18864.57,"end":18869.57,"text":"同時達到五千以上呼籲門檻的動物安樂死提議"},{"start":18869.57,"end":18870.57,"text":"就有七案"},{"start":18870.57,"end":18872.57,"text":"我想說透過這個平台的提議"},{"start":18872.57,"end":18874.57,"text":"就能直觀的去發現"},{"start":18874.57,"end":18877.57,"text":"即便在民間都用很審慎的態度在討論"},{"start":18878.9,"end":18879.9,"text":"是這樣"},{"start":18879.9,"end":18882.9,"text":"怎麼可以像現在急救章"},{"start":18882.9,"end":18883.9,"text":"就用人數的優勢"},{"start":18883.9,"end":18886.9,"text":"要把這個議題訴諸公投"},{"start":18886.9,"end":18888.9,"text":"這實在不得不努力"},{"start":18888.9,"end":18892.9,"text":"那立法院也推動這個尊嚴善終的"},{"start":18892.9,"end":18893.9,"text":"病人自主權益法"},{"start":18893.9,"end":18895.9,"text":"我本是也就是提案人之一"},{"start":18895.9,"end":18897.9,"text":"那當時我們在設定這個法律"},{"start":18897.9,"end":18901.9,"text":"你看在委員會是用多少次的委員會"},{"start":18901.9,"end":18903.9,"text":"這樣的一個討論"},{"start":18903.9,"end":18904.9,"text":"每一個環節"},{"start":18904.9,"end":18906.9,"text":"每一個範疇"},{"start":18906.9,"end":18907.9,"text":"每一個層次"},{"start":18907.9,"end":18909.9,"text":"那個都是一直溝通是溝通"},{"start":18909.9,"end":18912.9,"text":"所以我想安樂死這個議題"},{"start":18912.9,"end":18915.9,"text":"我們絕對願意用非常仔細慎重"},{"start":18915.9,"end":18917.9,"text":"然後嚴肅的態度來討論"},{"start":18917.9,"end":18918.9,"text":"那也必須要提醒"},{"start":18918.9,"end":18920.9,"text":"就是說這個法律"},{"start":18920.9,"end":18921.9,"text":"這部法律"},{"start":18921.9,"end":18923.9,"text":"千萬要細緻討論"},{"start":18923.9,"end":18924.9,"text":"不能為了政治操作"},{"start":18926.49,"end":18927.49,"text":"為了聯席的選舉"},{"start":18927.49,"end":18928.49,"text":"為了某些目的"},{"start":18928.49,"end":18929.49,"text":"反而失焦"},{"start":18929.49,"end":18934.49,"text":"反而讓這個有關生命的一個法案"},{"start":18934.49,"end":18935.49,"text":"清算的通過"},{"start":18935.49,"end":18938.49,"text":"我這邊先做這樣的一個表述"},{"start":18938.49,"end":18941.49,"text":"那本行有兩件事情要跟部長就教"},{"start":18941.49,"end":18945.49,"text":"第一個這個我覺得還蠻要緊的"},{"start":18946.64,"end":18948.64,"text":"部長請看這一個"},{"start":18948.64,"end":18950.64,"text":"育兒網紅載三歲女兒"},{"start":18950.64,"end":18951.64,"text":"設獨駕撞車"},{"start":18951.64,"end":18954.64,"text":"讓孩子吸到二手毒菸"},{"start":18954.64,"end":18956.64,"text":"又恐射孽童"},{"start":18956.64,"end":18957.64,"text":"這個報導"},{"start":18957.64,"end":18959.64,"text":"這不是單單的一個獨駕事件"},{"start":18959.64,"end":18962.64,"text":"如果沒有發生這個獨駕的事件"},{"start":18962.64,"end":18963.64,"text":"這個三歲女兒"},{"start":18963.64,"end":18966.64,"text":"她到底還要吸她媽媽的二手毒菸"},{"start":18966.64,"end":18967.64,"text":"到多久"},{"start":18967.97,"end":18968.97,"text":"這是一件事情"},{"start":18968.97,"end":18970.97,"text":"那再請部長看一下"},{"start":18970.97,"end":18972.97,"text":"這個獨駕的移送案件次數"},{"start":18973.98,"end":18975.98,"text":"2023 315件"},{"start":18975.98,"end":18977.98,"text":"2024 2619件"},{"start":18978.63,"end":18980.63,"text":"一年增長8倍"},{"start":18980.69,"end":18983.69,"text":"2025 8659件"},{"start":18983.69,"end":18986.69,"text":"等於隔年是3倍"},{"start":18986.69,"end":18989.69,"text":"但是那個件數已經如果對照"},{"start":18990.04,"end":18991.04,"text":"2023年"},{"start":18991.81,"end":18992.81,"text":"是是是"},{"start":18993.72,"end":18994.72,"text":"是幾倍你看"},{"start":18994.72,"end":18996.72,"text":"快30倍了"},{"start":18996.72,"end":18999.72,"text":"那我們截至到5月是6730件"},{"start":19000.49,"end":19003.49,"text":"到6月已經超越2025的全年的"},{"start":19003.49,"end":19006.49,"text":"這個這個移送的件數"},{"start":19006.49,"end":19008.49,"text":"已經來到9710件"},{"start":19008.49,"end":19010.49,"text":"這種喔"},{"start":19010.49,"end":19012.49,"text":"像我現在如果看這種趨勢的"},{"start":19012.49,"end":19014.49,"text":"買股票的人會很高興"},{"start":19015.29,"end":19016.29,"text":"但是台灣喔"},{"start":19016.29,"end":19018.29,"text":"面對這種獨駕移送的案件"},{"start":19018.29,"end":19020.29,"text":"我們看了會非常的"},{"start":19020.29,"end":19021.29,"text":"膽破心驚"},{"start":19021.29,"end":19023.29,"text":"也會非常的難過"},{"start":19023.29,"end":19024.29,"text":"怎麼會"},{"start":19024.29,"end":19025.29,"text":"怎麼會"},{"start":19025.29,"end":19027.29,"text":"會嚴重到成長的速度"},{"start":19027.29,"end":19028.29,"text":"快到這種程度"},{"start":19029.51,"end":19033.51,"text":"這是一件對台灣社會來說是一件"},{"start":19034.07,"end":19036.07,"text":"不好很恐怖的事情"},{"start":19036.07,"end":19039.07,"text":"然後你想那個網紅的這個媽媽"},{"start":19039.07,"end":19040.07,"text":"給他的小朋友"},{"start":19040.07,"end":19041.07,"text":"他才幾歲"},{"start":19041.07,"end":19042.07,"text":"三歲"},{"start":19042.07,"end":19043.07,"text":"三歲以下"},{"start":19043.07,"end":19046.07,"text":"然後幾乎要每天吸食這個"},{"start":19046.07,"end":19047.07,"text":"二手的毒菸"},{"start":19050.22,"end":19052.22,"text":"所以我還是希望"},{"start":19052.46,"end":19053.46,"text":"還是希望"},{"start":19053.71,"end":19056.71,"text":"部長我們可能要跟所有的單位"},{"start":19056.71,"end":19057.71,"text":"這個不能再用舊思維"},{"start":19057.71,"end":19059.71,"text":"這個再用舊思維"},{"start":19059.71,"end":19060.71,"text":"緩不濟急"},{"start":19060.71,"end":19061.71,"text":"因為誤會起來"},{"start":19061.71,"end":19062.71,"text":"對不住他們這種"},{"start":19062.71,"end":19063.71,"text":"這種恐怖"},{"start":19063.71,"end":19065.71,"text":"這種這種成長"},{"start":19065.71,"end":19067.71,"text":"所以所以我還是希望聽部長"},{"start":19067.71,"end":19069.71,"text":"是不是可以明確的"},{"start":19069.71,"end":19070.71,"text":"然後有新的思維"},{"start":19070.71,"end":19071.71,"text":"跟新的做法"},{"start":19071.71,"end":19073.71,"text":"不要再說什麼要修法"},{"start":19073.71,"end":19074.71,"text":"不是改革修法還是要修法"},{"start":19074.71,"end":19077.71,"text":"但是有些事情在行政作為上"},{"start":19077.71,"end":19079.71,"text":"他絕對是可以來處理的"},{"start":19079.71,"end":19080.71,"text":"是到底要不要承擔"},{"start":19080.71,"end":19082.71,"text":"到底要不要面對"},{"start":19082.71,"end":19083.71,"text":"包含不是衛福部"},{"start":19083.71,"end":19084.71,"text":"包含教育部"},{"start":19084.71,"end":19085.71,"text":"包含這個警政署"},{"start":19085.71,"end":19086.71,"text":"包含法務部"},{"start":19086.71,"end":19089.71,"text":"我想都是應該可以更"},{"start":19089.71,"end":19091.71,"text":"更積極的這樣的態度"},{"start":19091.71,"end":19092.71,"text":"來面對這些事情"},{"start":19092.71,"end":19094.71,"text":"因為這個小朋友吸了多久"},{"start":19094.71,"end":19095.71,"text":"三歲"},{"start":19096.27,"end":19098.27,"text":"他是到底是吸了三年的二手毒菸"},{"start":19098.27,"end":19099.27,"text":"還是吸了一年"},{"start":19100.51,"end":19101.51,"text":"還是吸了三個月"},{"start":19102.16,"end":19103.16,"text":"你不得而知啊"},{"start":19103.16,"end":19105.16,"text":"也很難再去追查"},{"start":19105.16,"end":19107.16,"text":"那黑數還有多多"},{"start":19107.58,"end":19108.58,"text":"黑數還多多"},{"start":19108.58,"end":19109.58,"text":"那這個小朋友"},{"start":19109.58,"end":19113.58,"text":"或許是某部長的親戚的小朋友"},{"start":19113.58,"end":19116.58,"text":"或許是某一個科長的"},{"start":19116.58,"end":19118.58,"text":"家裡裡面的成員"},{"start":19120.23,"end":19123.23,"text":"普羅大眾的小孩"},{"start":19124.15,"end":19126.15,"text":"都一樣"},{"start":19125.84,"end":19127.84,"text":"不能讓這樣的毒害"},{"start":19127.84,"end":19130.84,"text":"持續的侵襲我們台灣的"},{"start":19130.84,"end":19132.84,"text":"幼小的這些小朋友"},{"start":19132.84,"end":19133.84,"text":"甚至於不應該"},{"start":19133.84,"end":19135.84,"text":"再讓這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":19135.84,"end":19137.84,"text":"緩好幾倍的"},{"start":19137.84,"end":19138.84,"text":"這樣的速度在成長"},{"start":19138.84,"end":19139.84,"text":"尤其對教育部員"},{"start":19139.84,"end":19141.84,"text":"在國小國中"},{"start":19141.84,"end":19143.84,"text":"這更應該像我們之前在"},{"start":19143.84,"end":19145.84,"text":"討論了整個法案的過程裡面"},{"start":19145.84,"end":19146.84,"text":"我也把那個相關資料"},{"start":19146.84,"end":19147.84,"text":"給部長看了對不對"},{"start":19147.84,"end":19149.84,"text":"部長還靠近來看"},{"start":19149.84,"end":19150.84,"text":"怎麼那個東西"},{"start":19150.84,"end":19152.84,"text":"一個吸食器可以做到"},{"start":19152.84,"end":19153.84,"text":"好像是"},{"start":19153.84,"end":19155.84,"text":"好像是車上吊掛"},{"start":19155.84,"end":19158.84,"text":"包包吊掛的一個吸食的工具"},{"start":19158.84,"end":19160.84,"text":"這種黃不勝黃的情況之下"},{"start":19160.84,"end":19162.84,"text":"是不是知道他在吸食"},{"start":19162.84,"end":19163.84,"text":"就是馬上驗"},{"start":19163.84,"end":19165.84,"text":"就是馬上驗"},{"start":19165.84,"end":19167.84,"text":"我覺得這個絕對"},{"start":19167.84,"end":19169.84,"text":"我想多數的家長"},{"start":19169.84,"end":19170.84,"text":"都一定會認同的啦"},{"start":19170.84,"end":19171.84,"text":"都認同的"},{"start":19171.84,"end":19173.84,"text":"是不是請部長先簡單回應一下"},{"start":19173.84,"end":19174.84,"text":"好"},{"start":19174.84,"end":19177.84,"text":"在回應這個委員的槌詢之前"},{"start":19177.84,"end":19178.84,"text":"我也要先表達"},{"start":19178.84,"end":19180.84,"text":"這個病主法當年"},{"start":19180.84,"end":19183.84,"text":"那麼是在委員的立處之下"},{"start":19183.84,"end":19184.84,"text":"能夠通過"},{"start":19184.84,"end":19186.84,"text":"那也因為您的這個督促"},{"start":19186.84,"end":19189.84,"text":"我們在去年把他納入健保給付"},{"start":19189.84,"end":19193.84,"text":"大幅的放寬到65歲以上的"},{"start":19193.84,"end":19194.84,"text":"重大傷病"},{"start":19194.84,"end":19196.84,"text":"那麼多重慢性病"},{"start":19196.84,"end":19197.84,"text":"透過加一計畫"},{"start":19197.84,"end":19198.84,"text":"所以他"},{"start":19200.56,"end":19202.56,"text":"這個簽署的人數才能夠"},{"start":19202.56,"end":19203.56,"text":"在我們今年上半年"},{"start":19203.56,"end":19206.56,"text":"就簽了兩萬六千多人"},{"start":19206.56,"end":19208.56,"text":"這個您一定很清楚"},{"start":19208.56,"end":19210.56,"text":"過去這個這樣的數字是"},{"start":19210.56,"end":19213.56,"text":"要累積一兩年都才能夠達到的"},{"start":19213.56,"end":19216.56,"text":"我們今年已經快速的在提高"},{"start":19216.56,"end":19217.56,"text":"那我們現在的瓶頸"},{"start":19217.56,"end":19220.56,"text":"可能是在ACP的量能"},{"start":19220.56,"end":19222.56,"text":"就是現在健保有給付"},{"start":19222.56,"end":19224.56,"text":"那個可以對象其實是很多的"},{"start":19224.56,"end":19225.56,"text":"那麼對於這樣"},{"start":19225.56,"end":19226.56,"text":"當然他成長了"},{"start":19226.56,"end":19228.56,"text":"但是還是距離"},{"start":19228.56,"end":19229.56,"text":"我們的目標有距離"},{"start":19229.56,"end":19233.56,"text":"所以怎麼樣透過這一次的修法來放寬"},{"start":19233.56,"end":19234.56,"text":"那麼不是放寬"},{"start":19234.56,"end":19237.56,"text":"去擴大我們的ACP的量能"},{"start":19237.56,"end":19239.56,"text":"把這個瓶頸給打破"},{"start":19239.56,"end":19242.56,"text":"這個我想對於現在大家在訴求的"},{"start":19242.56,"end":19244.56,"text":"這個安樂死的這個議題"},{"start":19244.56,"end":19247.56,"text":"其實是我們應該先把這個病主法"},{"start":19247.56,"end":19249.56,"text":"能夠具體的來落實"},{"start":19249.56,"end":19251.56,"text":"那安樂死的部分"},{"start":19251.56,"end":19255.56,"text":"那麼再吸收更多的聲音"},{"start":19255.56,"end":19257.56,"text":"那大家的這個討論"},{"start":19257.56,"end":19261.56,"text":"那麼再來做立法上的研修"},{"start":19261.56,"end":19263.56,"text":"這個我要特別謝謝部長"},{"start":19263.56,"end":19265.56,"text":"在當健保署署長的時候"},{"start":19265.56,"end":19267.56,"text":"也積極的來協助推動了"},{"start":19267.56,"end":19269.56,"text":"坦白講這個也是"},{"start":19269.56,"end":19272.56,"text":"目標就是朝向尊嚴善忠"},{"start":19272.56,"end":19274.56,"text":"那上個禮拜五我們原本"},{"start":19274.56,"end":19278.56,"text":"這個病主法還要來修正提升"},{"start":19278.56,"end":19279.56,"text":"這個病主法2.0"},{"start":19279.56,"end":19281.56,"text":"那有就出席人數不夠"},{"start":19281.56,"end":19283.56,"text":"不過我們還是會盡快找時間"},{"start":19283.56,"end":19285.56,"text":"來趕快來協商"},{"start":19285.56,"end":19287.56,"text":"那當然還是再請部長與協助"},{"start":19287.56,"end":19289.56,"text":"如果病主法2.0可以"},{"start":19289.56,"end":19290.56,"text":"順利的刪除通過"},{"start":19290.56,"end":19293.56,"text":"我想民眾黨提出的尊嚴善忠"},{"start":19293.56,"end":19295.56,"text":"應該大家是可以坐下來"},{"start":19295.56,"end":19298.56,"text":"好好的來不要講學習"},{"start":19298.56,"end":19300.56,"text":"就大家好好的來討論"},{"start":19300.56,"end":19301.56,"text":"是不是也是"},{"start":19301.56,"end":19303.56,"text":"彼此之間要努力的目標"},{"start":19303.56,"end":19304.56,"text":"其實是一致的"},{"start":19304.56,"end":19305.56,"text":"對對對"},{"start":19305.56,"end":19306.56,"text":"那至於這個"},{"start":19308.49,"end":19310.49,"text":"電子煙的這個氾濫的問題"},{"start":19310.49,"end":19313.49,"text":"當然也謝謝這個召委的安排"},{"start":19313.49,"end":19316.49,"text":"已經在立法院的委員會裡面"},{"start":19316.49,"end":19318.49,"text":"我們已經有討論"},{"start":19318.49,"end":19320.49,"text":"那麼現在也等待這個最後"},{"start":19320.49,"end":19322.49,"text":"待會的協商"},{"start":19322.49,"end":19325.49,"text":"希望能夠盡快的完成這個修法"},{"start":19325.49,"end":19328.49,"text":"那麼把這個電子煙的納入"},{"start":19328.49,"end":19330.49,"text":"刑事的這個處分"},{"start":19330.49,"end":19333.49,"text":"那至於如何去落實執行"},{"start":19333.49,"end":19336.49,"text":"就如同剛剛這個委員所提到"},{"start":19336.49,"end":19338.49,"text":"因為他的陽態實在太多"},{"start":19338.49,"end":19340.49,"text":"所以我們一定要重罰的方式"},{"start":19340.49,"end":19342.49,"text":"才足以遏止這個"},{"start":19342.49,"end":19346.49,"text":"用各種的變形來混淆"},{"start":19346.49,"end":19347.49,"text":"那造成這樣"},{"start":19347.49,"end":19349.49,"text":"那至於校園的部分"},{"start":19349.49,"end":19352.49,"text":"其實這個教育部也在擬定"},{"start":19352.49,"end":19355.49,"text":"這個全面性就是那個拓意快篩"},{"start":19355.49,"end":19357.49,"text":"要引入到校園裡面"},{"start":19357.49,"end":19360.49,"text":"這個是不是我們也請署長補充"},{"start":19360.49,"end":19361.49,"text":"請署長謝謝"},{"start":19361.49,"end":19362.49,"text":"補充10秒"},{"start":19362.49,"end":19363.49,"text":"剛剛部長都講過的很清楚"},{"start":19363.49,"end":19365.49,"text":"那我這邊補充校園的做法"},{"start":19365.49,"end":19367.49,"text":"那把這個新興的這個"},{"start":19367.49,"end":19369.49,"text":"我們會用仿真的方式"},{"start":19369.49,"end":19370.49,"text":"以及納入教材"},{"start":19370.49,"end":19372.49,"text":"8月份就會教材給全國"},{"start":19372.49,"end":19374.49,"text":"那全國都用入班的方式"},{"start":19374.49,"end":19377.49,"text":"那五年級以上入班大概有5萬多班"},{"start":19377.49,"end":19379.49,"text":"用這種比較新的方式"},{"start":19379.49,"end":19383.49,"text":"來讓這些新興的這種遏制的方法"},{"start":19383.49,"end":19385.49,"text":"得到新時代的這個處理"},{"start":19385.49,"end":19386.49,"text":"這些委員提醒"},{"start":19386.49,"end":19387.49,"text":"補充署長"},{"start":19387.49,"end":19389.49,"text":"這個是一個作為"},{"start":19389.49,"end":19390.49,"text":"基本上我支持嘛對不對"},{"start":19390.49,"end":19393.49,"text":"但是現在有人在講說"},{"start":19393.49,"end":19395.49,"text":"可能是什麼法規上的不完備"},{"start":19395.49,"end":19398.49,"text":"可能牽涉到個資啦隱私啦等等等"},{"start":19398.49,"end":19399.49,"text":"喔這不對啊"},{"start":19399.49,"end":19401.49,"text":"這不對你們自己本身喔"},{"start":19401.49,"end":19403.49,"text":"在教育部就有各級學校特定人員"},{"start":19403.49,"end":19406.49,"text":"尿液篩檢幾乎來作業要點嘛"},{"start":19406.49,"end":19408.49,"text":"已經就有授權給學校"},{"start":19408.49,"end":19411.49,"text":"可以對特定人員尿液篩檢"},{"start":19411.7,"end":19413.7,"text":"你就可以即使是發現"},{"start":19413.7,"end":19417.7,"text":"這些已經被汙染的這些學生"},{"start":19418.85,"end":19421.85,"text":"我想今天如果他已經在吸食"},{"start":19421.85,"end":19423.85,"text":"我們那天在委員會討論的時候"},{"start":19423.85,"end":19424.85,"text":"部長都有聽到那時候"},{"start":19424.85,"end":19428.85,"text":"當然可能署長那天沒有出席嘛"},{"start":19428.85,"end":19430.85,"text":"應該你教育部有代表的人員"},{"start":19430.85,"end":19432.85,"text":"也應該會非常理解"},{"start":19432.85,"end":19434.85,"text":"他幾乎是綁定啦"},{"start":19435.59,"end":19437.59,"text":"對不對這個上升煙蛋"},{"start":19437.59,"end":19439.59,"text":"跟這個E2M1已經是綁定了"},{"start":19439.59,"end":19442.59,"text":"所以多數有吸食的坦白講啊"},{"start":19442.59,"end":19445.59,"text":"坦白講都應該馬上去做篩檢"},{"start":19445.59,"end":19447.59,"text":"就可以馬上知道他有沒有"},{"start":19447.59,"end":19451.59,"text":"那如果今天篩檢的程度多數都是有"},{"start":19451.59,"end":19453.59,"text":"為什麼今天家長要控訴什麼"},{"start":19453.59,"end":19456.59,"text":"違反個資啦什麼侵犯隱私權"},{"start":19457.19,"end":19460.19,"text":"我想這個不是問題之所在"},{"start":19460.19,"end":19462.19,"text":"一個新的毒品我們還用救濕尾"},{"start":19462.19,"end":19465.19,"text":"我們沒有新作法來做相關的因應"},{"start":19465.19,"end":19469.19,"text":"你看那個潘昇的數字就會這麼恐怖啊"},{"start":19469.19,"end":19471.19,"text":"謝謝委員剛才所提的快篩的方式"},{"start":19471.19,"end":19473.19,"text":"的確教育部已經在處理中"},{"start":19473.19,"end":19475.19,"text":"那有關的法制的建置"},{"start":19475.19,"end":19477.19,"text":"那也謝謝委員剛才提供了一個很好的方向"},{"start":19477.19,"end":19480.19,"text":"那也的確是我們在努力的方向"},{"start":19480.19,"end":19481.19,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":19481.19,"end":19483.19,"text":"對原本你們這邊就是有地"},{"start":19483.19,"end":19485.19,"text":"我剛剛特別提到了嘛對不對"},{"start":19485.19,"end":19487.19,"text":"特定人員的尿篩的部分"},{"start":19487.19,"end":19491.19,"text":"對啊這是各學校的特定人員的尿液篩檢機"},{"start":19491.19,"end":19493.19,"text":"相關的作用要點嘛"},{"start":19493.19,"end":19496.19,"text":"這個應該是應該是可以進行嗎"},{"start":19496.19,"end":19498.19,"text":"他上位的法源"},{"start":19498.19,"end":19501.19,"text":"原來就已經寫的是尿篩的這個情況"},{"start":19501.19,"end":19503.19,"text":"那現在加上特異的快篩"},{"start":19503.19,"end":19505.19,"text":"這樣怎麼樣是把他架構好"},{"start":19505.19,"end":19508.19,"text":"這個我們會跟衛福部或相關的法務部單位"},{"start":19508.19,"end":19510.19,"text":"一起來照聞這個方向來一起研究"},{"start":19510.19,"end":19514.19,"text":"非常時期有非常急迫的作為"},{"start":19514.19,"end":19518.19,"text":"沒有辦法用更積極的方法去"},{"start":19519.36,"end":19524.36,"text":"去處理這樣的狀況就會越加劇嚴重"},{"start":19524.36,"end":19525.36,"text":"所以我才特別講"},{"start":19525.36,"end":19529.36,"text":"哪怕他可能是遇到的會是個科長的小孩"},{"start":19529.36,"end":19532.36,"text":"也可能是一個部長的親戚"},{"start":19532.36,"end":19533.36,"text":"也可能是普羅大眾"},{"start":19533.36,"end":19536.36,"text":"都一樣那種成長的速度快到這種程度"},{"start":19536.36,"end":19539.36,"text":"我們就是對新毒品就要有新作為"},{"start":19539.36,"end":19541.36,"text":"就要也立風行"},{"start":19541.36,"end":19543.36,"text":"就是不能掛一頓飯"},{"start":19543.36,"end":19544.36,"text":"就是馬上要處理啊"},{"start":19544.36,"end":19546.36,"text":"對我們的態度跟委員一致"},{"start":19546.36,"end":19548.36,"text":"好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":19549.55,"end":19551.55,"text":"好謝謝劉建國委員發言"},{"start":19551.55,"end":19553.55,"text":"接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":19570.37,"end":19571.37,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":19571.37,"end":19572.37,"text":"主席請一下"},{"start":19573.14,"end":19574.14,"text":"社交署副署長"},{"start":19574.71,"end":19576.71,"text":"社交署長 媒體副署長"},{"start":19582.93,"end":19584.93,"text":"副委員號"},{"start":19584.93,"end":19586.93,"text":"副委員號我先跟你討論一下"},{"start":19587.97,"end":19591.97,"text":"台南一歲男童的不幸事件"},{"start":19591.97,"end":19593.97,"text":"那這裡就是"},{"start":19594.99,"end":19596.99,"text":"其實我也覺得"},{"start":19598.4,"end":19601.4,"text":"公部門並沒有辦法"},{"start":19601.4,"end":19603.4,"text":"阻止不幸事情的發生"},{"start":19603.4,"end":19607.4,"text":"因為我們沒有那麼多的人力可以去"},{"start":19607.4,"end":19609.4,"text":"不過是這樣子就是說"},{"start":19610.28,"end":19611.28,"text":"欸"},{"start":19611.87,"end":19613.87,"text":"無照保母你們通常"},{"start":19613.87,"end":19614.87,"text":"通常"},{"start":19615.78,"end":19616.78,"text":"有沒有可能"},{"start":19617.52,"end":19620.52,"text":"在什麼機緣或者什麼措施的"},{"start":19620.52,"end":19622.52,"text":"的實施下"},{"start":19622.52,"end":19624.52,"text":"是可以在"},{"start":19624.52,"end":19626.52,"text":"在不幸事件發生之前"},{"start":19626.52,"end":19628.52,"text":"就找出來的 有嗎"},{"start":19629.17,"end":19632.17,"text":"一般我們比較多是靠這個民眾的檢舉"},{"start":19632.17,"end":19634.17,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":19634.17,"end":19636.17,"text":"就是說如果民眾有檢舉的話"},{"start":19636.17,"end":19639.17,"text":"我們的各縣市政府的這個查核的人"},{"start":19639.17,"end":19641.17,"text":"他都會進行去做查核"},{"start":19641.17,"end":19643.17,"text":"那這個案件"},{"start":19643.17,"end":19644.17,"text":"就台南這個案件"},{"start":19644.17,"end":19646.17,"text":"是不是有經過檢舉"},{"start":19646.63,"end":19648.63,"text":"台南這個案件應該是"},{"start":19649.58,"end":19652.58,"text":"發生事情之後才知道的"},{"start":19652.58,"end":19654.58,"text":"發生事情之後"},{"start":19654.58,"end":19655.58,"text":"那我"},{"start":19656.93,"end":19658.93,"text":"我想請問你喔"},{"start":19658.75,"end":19660.75,"text":"在你的認知裡面"},{"start":19660.75,"end":19662.75,"text":"為什麼家長願意"},{"start":19662.75,"end":19664.75,"text":"把小孩子託付給"},{"start":19665.65,"end":19666.65,"text":"無照的保母"},{"start":19666.65,"end":19668.65,"text":"是不知道他無照"},{"start":19668.65,"end":19670.65,"text":"還是其他原因"},{"start":19670.65,"end":19672.65,"text":"通常大概有幾個原因啦"},{"start":19672.65,"end":19674.65,"text":"第一個是有可能是家長不知道"},{"start":19674.65,"end":19676.65,"text":"因為所以這也是我們一直加強宣傳"},{"start":19676.65,"end":19680.65,"text":"要找到有登記的證的包"},{"start":19680.65,"end":19681.65,"text":"那我們就是必須要加強"},{"start":19682.37,"end":19683.37,"text":"部長不好意思喔"},{"start":19683.37,"end":19685.37,"text":"我們就是必須要加強"},{"start":19685.37,"end":19687.37,"text":"這部分的宣導"},{"start":19687.37,"end":19691.37,"text":"有照總是國家做過初步的把關"},{"start":19691.37,"end":19692.37,"text":"然後第二個是"},{"start":19692.37,"end":19694.37,"text":"他可能是受費比較低廉"},{"start":19695.37,"end":19696.37,"text":"對於家長來講"},{"start":19696.37,"end":19698.37,"text":"他會覺得托育費用的負擔"},{"start":19698.37,"end":19699.37,"text":"這件事情"},{"start":19699.37,"end":19700.37,"text":"那收費低的部分"},{"start":19700.37,"end":19702.37,"text":"署裡面有沒有因應的對策"},{"start":19702.37,"end":19705.37,"text":"我們現在其實是有給"},{"start":19705.37,"end":19707.37,"text":"這個我們中央其實是有補助"},{"start":19707.37,"end":19709.37,"text":"托育補助的費用"},{"start":19709.37,"end":19711.37,"text":"那至少每一個家庭都可以得到"},{"start":19711.37,"end":19712.37,"text":"一萬三"},{"start":19712.37,"end":19713.37,"text":"那如果是弱勢的"},{"start":19713.37,"end":19714.37,"text":"弱勢家庭"},{"start":19714.37,"end":19715.37,"text":"家庭可以得到更多"},{"start":19715.37,"end":19716.37,"text":"還有嗎"},{"start":19717.69,"end":19719.69,"text":"然後另外一個就是說"},{"start":19719.69,"end":19721.69,"text":"收拖的時間"},{"start":19721.69,"end":19722.69,"text":"因為有些家長可能"},{"start":19722.69,"end":19724.69,"text":"他工作的時間比較長"},{"start":19724.69,"end":19726.69,"text":"那這個不過我們其實"},{"start":19726.69,"end":19727.69,"text":"一般我們的保母"},{"start":19727.69,"end":19729.69,"text":"其實他也可以拖24小時"},{"start":19729.69,"end":19730.69,"text":"對"},{"start":19730.69,"end":19731.69,"text":"副老師這樣子"},{"start":19731.69,"end":19734.69,"text":"我向來不是很喜歡檢討"},{"start":19734.69,"end":19736.69,"text":"不幸事件"},{"start":19736.69,"end":19739.69,"text":"那可是我們必須要藉由不幸事件"},{"start":19739.69,"end":19742.69,"text":"來精進我們日後的方式"},{"start":19742.69,"end":19745.69,"text":"那家長選擇"},{"start":19745.69,"end":19749.69,"text":"選擇無債保母的可能"},{"start":19751.58,"end":19753.58,"text":"署裡面這邊也都知道"},{"start":19753.58,"end":19754.58,"text":"那我們就是"},{"start":19754.58,"end":19756.58,"text":"你剛剛講的那三個原因"},{"start":19756.58,"end":19760.58,"text":"大概我的想法大概也這樣子"},{"start":19760.58,"end":19764.58,"text":"所以你們看要怎麼去做處理"},{"start":19764.58,"end":19766.58,"text":"總是要防止"},{"start":19766.58,"end":19769.58,"text":"因為小孩子特別是兩歲以下"},{"start":19769.58,"end":19771.58,"text":"其實是最需要保護的好不好"},{"start":19771.58,"end":19772.58,"text":"是 好"},{"start":19772.58,"end":19774.58,"text":"請副長請回"},{"start":19774.58,"end":19776.58,"text":"主席我請一下部長"},{"start":19776.58,"end":19777.58,"text":"部長有請"},{"start":19781.97,"end":19782.97,"text":"部長好"},{"start":19782.97,"end":19784.97,"text":"部長我們今天討論安樂死"},{"start":19784.97,"end":19787.97,"text":"我就先跟你討論一下"},{"start":19787.97,"end":19789.97,"text":"我們的安寧醫療制度"},{"start":19791.72,"end":19793.72,"text":"我們就是"},{"start":19793.72,"end":19794.72,"text":"現行制度"},{"start":19794.72,"end":19798.72,"text":"為了要保障生命末期照顧品質的"},{"start":19798.72,"end":19800.72,"text":"的部分"},{"start":19800.72,"end":19802.72,"text":"我們大概有可以"},{"start":19803.92,"end":19804.92,"text":"醫療制度"},{"start":19806.32,"end":19807.32,"text":"對不對"},{"start":19807.32,"end":19808.32,"text":"對"},{"start":19808.32,"end":19809.32,"text":"病毒法規定了"},{"start":19809.32,"end":19812.32,"text":"那還有另外一個就是安寧醫療"},{"start":19812.32,"end":19814.32,"text":"安寧緩和醫院書"},{"start":19814.32,"end":19817.32,"text":"安寧醫療的部分"},{"start":19819.06,"end":19821.06,"text":"我有一個問題想要"},{"start":19821.06,"end":19823.06,"text":"跟部長討論一下"},{"start":19823.06,"end":19828.06,"text":"現在全台灣只有873床安寧病床"},{"start":19828.06,"end":19829.06,"text":"我這個數據"},{"start":19829.29,"end":19830.29,"text":"這個差不多"},{"start":19832.83,"end":19833.83,"text":"這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":19834.62,"end":19836.62,"text":"很明顯的是不夠的"},{"start":19838.58,"end":19839.58,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":19839.58,"end":19843.58,"text":"因為我們這個安寧我們分成三類"},{"start":19843.58,"end":19846.58,"text":"一個就是像您說的那個是住院安寧"},{"start":19846.58,"end":19848.58,"text":"就是一個特定的病房"},{"start":19848.58,"end":19850.58,"text":"專門在提供安寧的"},{"start":19850.58,"end":19851.58,"text":"另外有安寧共照"},{"start":19851.58,"end":19854.58,"text":"也就是病人不動團隊動的概念"},{"start":19854.58,"end":19857.58,"text":"還用照會安寧團隊來照顧"},{"start":19857.58,"end":19858.58,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":19858.58,"end":19861.58,"text":"在住院的時候叫做安寧共照"},{"start":19861.58,"end":19862.58,"text":"在一般病床"},{"start":19862.58,"end":19863.58,"text":"一般病床"},{"start":19863.58,"end":19865.58,"text":"然後安寧團隊來提供安寧的服務"},{"start":19865.58,"end":19866.58,"text":"它是第二種"},{"start":19866.58,"end":19868.58,"text":"第三種還是居家安寧"},{"start":19868.58,"end":19871.58,"text":"所以我們現在健保的幾乎有這三種樣態"},{"start":19874.38,"end":19876.38,"text":"我自己接待的案子"},{"start":19876.38,"end":19881.38,"text":"其實我們接獲多次癌末病人家屬的懲情"},{"start":19881.38,"end":19887.38,"text":"就是病患已經被告知走到生命末期"},{"start":19887.38,"end":19891.38,"text":"必須要轉安寧病房接受安寧醫療"},{"start":19891.38,"end":19895.38,"text":"可是其實大概都必須要等很久"},{"start":19895.38,"end":19899.38,"text":"所以部長剛剛講的第二個方案就是"},{"start":19899.38,"end":19902.38,"text":"就是病人不動醫生動"},{"start":19902.38,"end":19905.38,"text":"那個叫安寧共照"},{"start":19905.38,"end":19910.38,"text":"安寧共照的部分必須要求醫院趕快去強化"},{"start":19910.38,"end":19914.38,"text":"因為這個是算量能就比較大"},{"start":19914.38,"end":19916.38,"text":"因為不受限於病床的限制"},{"start":19916.38,"end":19918.38,"text":"也比較即時性"},{"start":19918.38,"end":19919.38,"text":"它不是專屬病房"},{"start":19919.38,"end":19924.38,"text":"可是還是一樣可以得到安寧醫療緩和醫療"},{"start":19924.38,"end":19926.38,"text":"這個我們會來強化"},{"start":19926.38,"end":19930.38,"text":"也要讓病患家屬知道有這種選擇"},{"start":19930.38,"end":19931.38,"text":"有這個選擇"},{"start":19931.38,"end":19933.38,"text":"這個還不錯"},{"start":19933.38,"end":19935.38,"text":"另外一個就是部長剛剛講的"},{"start":19935.38,"end":19941.38,"text":"也就是居家療護或者是社區化的安寧居家療護"},{"start":19943.51,"end":19947.51,"text":"這個其實推廣的怎麼樣"},{"start":19947.51,"end":19950.51,"text":"其實這個越來越被大家接受"},{"start":19950.51,"end":19951.51,"text":"就是居家"},{"start":19951.51,"end":19956.51,"text":"因為現在其實多數的病人還是希望在家善終"},{"start":19956.51,"end":19960.51,"text":"如果能夠在熟悉的環境跟家人告別"},{"start":19960.51,"end":19961.51,"text":"這個是最好的"},{"start":19961.51,"end":19964.51,"text":"他最少在心情跟情緒上"},{"start":19964.51,"end":19967.51,"text":"心理跟情緒上會比醫院更好"},{"start":19967.51,"end":19970.51,"text":"不過必須要你們大力"},{"start":19971.53,"end":19975.53,"text":"讓一般的民眾知道說有這個選項"},{"start":19975.53,"end":19979.53,"text":"也必須要落實到可以跟醫院"},{"start":19979.53,"end":19984.53,"text":"很難要求到同等"},{"start":19984.53,"end":19986.53,"text":"可是落差不要那麼大"},{"start":19986.53,"end":19993.53,"text":"還有就是這個可能會有城鄉差異的問題"},{"start":19993.53,"end":19995.53,"text":"會有城鄉差異的問題"},{"start":19995.53,"end":19997.53,"text":"這個都要"},{"start":19997.53,"end":19998.53,"text":"所以跟文說明"},{"start":19998.53,"end":20000.53,"text":"跟文說明我們今年的健保"},{"start":20000.53,"end":20003.53,"text":"也把居家安寧的給他提高"},{"start":20003.53,"end":20006.53,"text":"因為這個要團隊到家裡面"},{"start":20006.53,"end":20008.53,"text":"所以成本是比較耗時"},{"start":20008.53,"end":20009.53,"text":"高成本"},{"start":20009.53,"end":20010.53,"text":"所以這個把它提高"},{"start":20010.53,"end":20015.53,"text":"另外也用這個P4P就是潤脂記仇方案"},{"start":20015.53,"end":20017.53,"text":"做個好的我們再加成給他"},{"start":20017.53,"end":20019.53,"text":"費用再加成"},{"start":20019.53,"end":20021.53,"text":"就是希望把品質拉高"},{"start":20021.53,"end":20023.53,"text":"像董言提的這樣"},{"start":20023.53,"end":20026.53,"text":"品質好的我們加成好像兩成還是三成"},{"start":20026.53,"end":20028.53,"text":"人生的最後一段路"},{"start":20028.53,"end":20032.53,"text":"對病患來講對家屬來講"},{"start":20032.53,"end":20034.53,"text":"都是一段煎熬"},{"start":20034.53,"end":20036.53,"text":"我們盡量把它做好"},{"start":20036.53,"end":20039.53,"text":"最後因為今天我們有討論安樂死"},{"start":20039.53,"end":20044.53,"text":"那當然把安樂死的議題拿來當作公投"},{"start":20044.53,"end":20048.53,"text":"這個是一項還滿荒謬的事情"},{"start":20048.53,"end":20053.53,"text":"因為這個有太多專業的東西"},{"start":20053.53,"end":20056.53,"text":"包括憲法到底有沒有保障到死亡權"},{"start":20056.53,"end":20061.53,"text":"然後死亡權憲法基本權利"},{"start":20061.53,"end":20063.53,"text":"能不能主動放棄"},{"start":20063.53,"end":20065.53,"text":"這個要探討的問題很多"},{"start":20065.53,"end":20072.53,"text":"而我希望部長能不能用比較簡單的講法"},{"start":20072.53,"end":20075.53,"text":"透過這個委員會講一下"},{"start":20075.53,"end":20079.53,"text":"因為我們現在其實已經有"},{"start":20079.53,"end":20083.53,"text":"有抑鬱安寧患兒醫療的"},{"start":20083.53,"end":20086.53,"text":"和維生醫療的意願書"},{"start":20086.53,"end":20089.53,"text":"然後也有抑鬱醫療決定書"},{"start":20090.61,"end":20091.61,"text":"這兩個"},{"start":20092.23,"end":20093.23,"text":"加起來"},{"start":20093.68,"end":20095.68,"text":"跟安樂死"},{"start":20095.68,"end":20099.68,"text":"跟現在在討論的安樂死之間"},{"start":20100.08,"end":20101.08,"text":"差距在哪裡"},{"start":20101.92,"end":20102.92,"text":"不同在哪裡"},{"start":20103.72,"end":20106.72,"text":"其實我們走的是尊嚴善忠"},{"start":20106.72,"end":20108.72,"text":"如果簡單國外的分法"},{"start":20108.72,"end":20111.72,"text":"我們現在所推動的都叫做Nature Death"},{"start":20111.72,"end":20114.72,"text":"就是讓這個變成自然的"},{"start":20114.72,"end":20119.72,"text":"不要再多不必要的侵入性處置"},{"start":20119.72,"end":20123.72,"text":"讓病人能夠安寧的疑似"},{"start":20123.72,"end":20126.72,"text":"另外這個安樂死現在法案所提出來"},{"start":20126.72,"end":20129.72,"text":"那個叫做主動加工死亡"},{"start":20129.72,"end":20130.72,"text":"Assisted 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0510.57,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":20510.57,"end":20512.57,"text":"我"},{"start":20511.96,"end":20513.96,"text":"個人也還在思考當中"},{"start":20513.96,"end":20515.96,"text":"就是說我們的安樂死的"},{"start":20515.96,"end":20517.96,"text":"適用範圍"},{"start":20517.96,"end":20519.96,"text":"跟適用期間"},{"start":20521.21,"end":20523.21,"text":"好"},{"start":20522.8,"end":20524.8,"text":"我是比較重視就是必須要"},{"start":20526.19,"end":20528.19,"text":"在意識清晰的狀況之下"},{"start":20528.19,"end":20530.19,"text":"我想請教部長"},{"start":20530.19,"end":20532.19,"text":"你針對這個部分你是怎麼看的"},{"start":20532.19,"end":20534.19,"text":"你這個預定安樂死的法律界線"},{"start":20534.19,"end":20536.19,"text":"的部分"},{"start":20536.53,"end":20539.53,"text":"因為這個越重大的決定"},{"start":20539.53,"end":20542.53,"text":"特別是休官生命的越重大的決定"},{"start":20542.53,"end":20545.53,"text":"那麼他的過程就必須越嚴謹"},{"start":20545.53,"end":20546.53,"text":"所以舉例而言"},{"start":20546.53,"end":20549.53,"text":"如果是安寧緩和醫療的部分"},{"start":20549.53,"end":20551.53,"text":"他只針對不予急救"},{"start":20551.53,"end":20554.53,"text":"那麼安寧緩和這個做決定"},{"start":20554.53,"end":20557.53,"text":"那麼他的除了本人的意願之外"},{"start":20557.53,"end":20560.53,"text":"他也有代理人可以來行使同意書"},{"start":20560.53,"end":20562.53,"text":"本人的意願書"},{"start":20562.53,"end":20564.53,"text":"或者是代理人的同意書"},{"start":20564.53,"end":20566.53,"text":"可是到了病除法"},{"start":20566.53,"end":20568.53,"text":"因為他就不是只有末期病人"},{"start":20568.53,"end":20570.53,"text":"他已經擴大到"},{"start":20571.67,"end":20573.67,"text":"嚴重的失智者"},{"start":20573.67,"end":20575.67,"text":"或者是不可逆的昏迷"},{"start":20575.67,"end":20577.67,"text":"職務人狀態"},{"start":20577.67,"end":20579.67,"text":"還有其他的那麼喊病的條件"},{"start":20579.67,"end":20582.67,"text":"所以他的過程就更嚴謹了"},{"start":20582.67,"end":20584.67,"text":"所以他就加入了一個需要"},{"start":20584.67,"end":20586.67,"text":"醫療照護諮商"},{"start":20586.67,"end":20588.67,"text":"那麼而且這個諮商的過程"},{"start":20588.67,"end":20591.67,"text":"還必須要有他的最近親屬的參與"},{"start":20591.67,"end":20595.67,"text":"所以他這個決定的過程就要越嚴謹"},{"start":20595.67,"end":20598.67,"text":"然後到後面要啟動的時候"},{"start":20598.67,"end":20600.67,"text":"他的程序也比安寧"},{"start":20600.67,"end":20602.67,"text":"又更嚴謹了"},{"start":20602.67,"end":20605.67,"text":"他需要有兩個相關的專科醫師判定"},{"start":20605.67,"end":20607.67,"text":"再經過兩次的"},{"start":20607.67,"end":20610.67,"text":"以上的這個安寧團隊的召會"},{"start":20610.67,"end":20613.67,"text":"之後才啟動他的預立醫療決定"},{"start":20613.67,"end":20617.67,"text":"所以越重大休觀生命這個終點的"},{"start":20617.67,"end":20620.67,"text":"那麼通常我們的程序上"},{"start":20621.96,"end":20623.96,"text":"就會更嚴謹"},{"start":20623.96,"end":20626.96,"text":"所以進入到這個所謂的加速了"},{"start":20626.96,"end":20628.96,"text":"這個安樂死就有點"},{"start":20628.96,"end":20629.96,"text":"更加速了一點"},{"start":20629.96,"end":20630.96,"text":"更往前了"},{"start":20630.96,"end":20633.96,"text":"那這個過程當然就更多值得"},{"start":20633.96,"end":20636.96,"text":"要去把它界定清楚了"},{"start":20636.96,"end":20639.96,"text":"部長因為今天我們正式在進行委員會"},{"start":20639.96,"end":20641.96,"text":"在做這個討論"},{"start":20641.96,"end":20642.96,"text":"所以"},{"start":20642.71,"end":20644.71,"text":"我希望說有書面的回覆"},{"start":20644.71,"end":20646.71,"text":"就是把我的草案裡面"},{"start":20646.71,"end":20648.71,"text":"為不顧你們的看法"},{"start":20650.27,"end":20652.27,"text":"建議的方向"},{"start":20652.27,"end":20654.27,"text":"或者是你們覺得現在狀況下"},{"start":20654.27,"end":20657.27,"text":"是不可行的狀況"},{"start":20657.27,"end":20659.27,"text":"那必須要書面回覆給我"},{"start":20659.27,"end":20660.27,"text":"那我們才有機會"},{"start":20660.27,"end":20663.27,"text":"因為這種生命的議題我也不認為說"},{"start":20663.27,"end":20665.27,"text":"只在我們委員會"},{"start":20665.27,"end":20667.27,"text":"我以這個施加一分鐘"},{"start":20667.27,"end":20669.27,"text":"是可以把它討論完的"},{"start":20669.27,"end":20670.27,"text":"但是這是一個開始"},{"start":20670.27,"end":20671.27,"text":"那這個開始裡面"},{"start":20671.27,"end":20674.27,"text":"包含其他委員的各個的這個說法"},{"start":20674.27,"end":20677.27,"text":"我希望會後"},{"start":20677.27,"end":20678.27,"text":"會後"},{"start":20678.44,"end":20680.44,"text":"我們限期一個時間"},{"start":20680.44,"end":20682.44,"text":"主席我們通常都是給衛福部多久的時間"},{"start":20684.06,"end":20685.06,"text":"因為這件事情比較重要"},{"start":20685.06,"end":20687.06,"text":"我希望更完整的回覆"},{"start":20687.06,"end":20688.06,"text":"部長你覺得"},{"start":20688.06,"end":20690.06,"text":"你可以怎麼樣做很完整的回覆"},{"start":20690.06,"end":20691.06,"text":"包含我們部內"},{"start":20691.06,"end":20693.06,"text":"署內的各個不同的意見"},{"start":20693.06,"end":20694.06,"text":"把它納入"},{"start":20694.06,"end":20695.06,"text":"然後是要有一個方向"},{"start":20695.06,"end":20697.06,"text":"你們說一個時間點好不好"},{"start":20697.06,"end":20699.06,"text":"我們努力三個月"},{"start":20699.06,"end":20701.06,"text":"就針對委員的版本"},{"start":20701.06,"end":20702.06,"text":"不是全面性的"},{"start":20702.06,"end":20703.06,"text":"三個月"},{"start":20703.06,"end":20704.06,"text":"那你要假設"},{"start":20704.06,"end":20706.06,"text":"這個是會公開給所有人去檢視的"},{"start":20706.06,"end":20707.06,"text":"會"},{"start":20707.06,"end":20709.06,"text":"因為我們也得找及專家"},{"start":20709.06,"end":20712.06,"text":"也不是只有我們行政單位的意見"},{"start":20712.06,"end":20714.06,"text":"那就真的是三個月內"},{"start":20714.06,"end":20716.06,"text":"必須要有一個很完整的版本"},{"start":20716.06,"end":20720.06,"text":"不是我們的版本是針對委員的版本"},{"start":20720.06,"end":20721.06,"text":"針對我們的草案的不同意見"},{"start":20721.06,"end":20723.06,"text":"還有你們專業意見要納入"},{"start":20723.06,"end":20724.06,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":20724.06,"end":20727.06,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":20727.06,"end":20729.06,"text":"王安祥委員王安祥委員"},{"start":20729.06,"end":20731.06,"text":"王安祥委員不在"},{"start":20732.2,"end":20734.2,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":20734.2,"end":20735.2,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":20735.2,"end":20737.2,"text":"陳慶龍委員陳慶龍委員"},{"start":20737.2,"end":20738.2,"text":"陳慶龍委員不在"},{"start":20738.2,"end":20740.2,"text":"詹爾琳委員詹爾琳委員"},{"start":20740.2,"end":20742.2,"text":"詹爾琳委員不在"},{"start":20742.2,"end":20744.2,"text":"接下來我們請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":20757.04,"end":20759.04,"text":"主席請衛福部長謝謝"},{"start":20759.04,"end":20760.04,"text":"有請市部長"},{"start":20762.64,"end":20763.64,"text":"好我也好"},{"start":20763.64,"end":20765.64,"text":"衛福部在這一次的問題由事件"},{"start":20765.64,"end":20766.64,"text":"大概有兩個決策"},{"start":20766.64,"end":20767.64,"text":"外界覺得非常奇怪"},{"start":20767.64,"end":20768.64,"text":"所以最近大家在問說"},{"start":20768.64,"end":20770.64,"text":"到底是決策怎麼做出來的"},{"start":20770.64,"end":20771.64,"text":"第一個是7月3號的時候"},{"start":20771.64,"end":20773.64,"text":"跟大家講說第二層的食品"},{"start":20773.64,"end":20775.64,"text":"業者也是受害者"},{"start":20775.64,"end":20776.64,"text":"所以就不用下架"},{"start":20776.64,"end":20778.64,"text":"然後也不用公佈"},{"start":20778.64,"end":20779.64,"text":"但後來改了"},{"start":20780.23,"end":20781.23,"text":"好這是第一個"},{"start":20781.23,"end":20783.23,"text":"第二個改的是說"},{"start":20783.23,"end":20785.23,"text":"第二層食品要下架"},{"start":20785.23,"end":20787.23,"text":"但是20%成分以下"},{"start":20787.23,"end":20789.23,"text":"不用下架不用公佈"},{"start":20789.23,"end":20791.23,"text":"我來請教一下"},{"start":20791.23,"end":20793.23,"text":"在做出第一個決策的時候"},{"start":20793.23,"end":20794.23,"text":"那個時候有"},{"start":20794.23,"end":20796.23,"text":"那是決幾號的決策"},{"start":20796.23,"end":20797.23,"text":"找玩家來講的嗎"},{"start":20797.23,"end":20798.23,"text":"應該是這樣"},{"start":20798.23,"end":20800.23,"text":"就是第一個時間我們"},{"start":20800.23,"end":20802.23,"text":"6月30號接獲通報"},{"start":20802.23,"end":20804.23,"text":"那麼7月1號就去查場"},{"start":20804.23,"end":20806.23,"text":"那麼7月2號就根據"},{"start":20806.23,"end":20809.23,"text":"在之前有訂定的一個"},{"start":20809.23,"end":20811.23,"text":"違規食品事件的"},{"start":20811.23,"end":20813.23,"text":"下架階層處理原則"},{"start":20813.23,"end":20815.23,"text":"那個時候是第一層下架"},{"start":20815.23,"end":20816.23,"text":"所以7月2號就宣布"},{"start":20816.23,"end":20818.23,"text":"第一層的油品都下架"},{"start":20818.23,"end":20819.23,"text":"部長出來講說"},{"start":20819.23,"end":20821.23,"text":"第二層食品不用下架"},{"start":20821.23,"end":20823.23,"text":"那個沒有專家會議"},{"start":20823.23,"end":20824.23,"text":"沒有開會"},{"start":20824.23,"end":20826.23,"text":"這是你直接宣布的"},{"start":20826.23,"end":20827.23,"text":"那個不是我宣布"},{"start":20827.23,"end":20828.23,"text":"那個是食藥署"},{"start":20828.23,"end":20829.23,"text":"食藥署就宣布了"},{"start":20829.23,"end":20830.23,"text":"還沒有專家會議"},{"start":20830.23,"end":20832.23,"text":"就是先把第一層的油品"},{"start":20832.23,"end":20833.23,"text":"都下架了"},{"start":20833.23,"end":20834.23,"text":"但是那時候講"},{"start":20834.23,"end":20835.23,"text":"第二層不用下架"},{"start":20835.23,"end":20836.23,"text":"大家現在動作慢"},{"start":20836.23,"end":20838.23,"text":"不過當時候的規定"},{"start":20838.23,"end":20839.23,"text":"確實是沒有作成的"},{"start":20839.23,"end":20840.23,"text":"不是啦"},{"start":20840.23,"end":20842.23,"text":"那個當時也是專家"},{"start":20842.23,"end":20844.23,"text":"那個也是專家做出來的決定"},{"start":20844.23,"end":20845.23,"text":"然後那個專家的規定"},{"start":20845.23,"end":20847.23,"text":"是根據以前的專家的會議"},{"start":20847.23,"end":20848.23,"text":"然後做出這樣的決定"},{"start":20848.23,"end":20849.23,"text":"就很怪嘛"},{"start":20849.23,"end":20851.23,"text":"因為那時候"},{"start":20851.23,"end":20853.23,"text":"蘇丹紅的事情的時候"},{"start":20853.23,"end":20854.23,"text":"蘇丹紅是三級致癌物"},{"start":20854.23,"end":20855.23,"text":"他的第二層食品"},{"start":20855.23,"end":20856.23,"text":"馬上就下架"},{"start":20856.23,"end":20857.23,"text":"但這一次是一級致癌物"},{"start":20857.23,"end":20859.23,"text":"但第二層食品卻沒有下架"},{"start":20859.23,"end":20860.23,"text":"那個是不得添加"},{"start":20860.23,"end":20861.23,"text":"不是 關你後來為什麼還是下架"},{"start":20861.23,"end":20863.23,"text":"代表你感覺這就是有問題"},{"start":20863.23,"end":20866.23,"text":"部長如果說後面你還是很堅持說"},{"start":20866.23,"end":20867.23,"text":"這個東西不應該下架"},{"start":20867.23,"end":20868.23,"text":"那當然我們就沒什麼好講了嘛"},{"start":20868.23,"end":20870.23,"text":"你後來那個賴總統也說"},{"start":20870.23,"end":20871.23,"text":"該下架就下架"},{"start":20871.23,"end":20872.23,"text":"所以你們後來也下架了嘛"},{"start":20872.23,"end":20874.23,"text":"代表你當初動作慢嘛"},{"start":20874.23,"end":20875.23,"text":"你如果第一時間"},{"start":20875.23,"end":20876.23,"text":"第二層食品就下架"},{"start":20876.23,"end":20879.23,"text":"大家那幾天不用多吃很多致癌物嘛"},{"start":20879.23,"end":20881.23,"text":"所以我們不需要去吵這個東西嘛"},{"start":20881.23,"end":20882.23,"text":"所以第一個決策就慢了"},{"start":20882.23,"end":20883.23,"text":"第二件事情是"},{"start":20883.23,"end":20887.23,"text":"那20%到底這個決策是怎麼做出來的"},{"start":20887.23,"end":20888.23,"text":"這是很多人關心的"},{"start":20888.23,"end":20891.23,"text":"包括你們綠營的陳其邁市長也關心啊"},{"start":20891.23,"end":20892.23,"text":"那所以這20%"},{"start":20892.23,"end":20894.23,"text":"第一個為什麼是20%"},{"start":20894.79,"end":20895.79,"text":"是為什麼"},{"start":20895.79,"end":20896.79,"text":"為什麼不是30%"},{"start":20896.79,"end":20898.79,"text":"這是7月4號的專家"},{"start":20898.79,"end":20900.79,"text":"為什麼專家認為不是30%"},{"start":20900.79,"end":20902.79,"text":"是20% 為什麼"},{"start":20902.79,"end":20904.79,"text":"他們是根據他的風險"},{"start":20904.92,"end":20907.92,"text":"這個科學的證據跟風險的證據"},{"start":20907.92,"end":20908.92,"text":"什麼科學的證據"},{"start":20910.3,"end":20911.3,"text":"什麼科學的證據"},{"start":20911.3,"end":20912.3,"text":"為什麼是30%"},{"start":20912.3,"end":20913.3,"text":"不是10%"},{"start":20913.3,"end":20918.3,"text":"如果是按照當年在訂定"},{"start":20918.3,"end":20919.3,"text":"其實當年訂的時候"},{"start":20919.3,"end":20921.3,"text":"也是參考了歐盟的標準"},{"start":20921.3,"end":20923.3,"text":"歐盟的標準值下架到第一層"},{"start":20923.3,"end":20924.3,"text":"並沒有第二層"},{"start":20924.3,"end":20926.3,"text":"我現在講的是20%啦"},{"start":20926.3,"end":20927.3,"text":"對"},{"start":20927.3,"end":20930.3,"text":"那我們講的20%是第二層"},{"start":20930.3,"end":20931.3,"text":"對 當然啊"},{"start":20931.3,"end":20932.3,"text":"並不是在第一層"},{"start":20932.3,"end":20933.3,"text":"我知道"},{"start":20933.3,"end":20934.3,"text":"所以第一層我們的標準"},{"start":20934.3,"end":20935.3,"text":"跟歐盟是一樣的"},{"start":20935.3,"end":20938.3,"text":"然後第二層的20%是怎麼訂出來的"},{"start":20938.3,"end":20941.3,"text":"就是由7月4號的專家會議"},{"start":20941.3,"end":20943.3,"text":"去討論之後"},{"start":20943.3,"end":20947.3,"text":"才提出包含第二層的原型油"},{"start":20947.3,"end":20951.3,"text":"跟使用到20%的加工食品才去下架"},{"start":20951.3,"end":20952.3,"text":"這個是在"},{"start":20952.3,"end":20954.3,"text":"不是啦 你一直重複我的問題"},{"start":20954.3,"end":20956.3,"text":"你一直把我的問題再重複一遍而已"},{"start":20956.3,"end":20959.3,"text":"我是問你說20%"},{"start":20959.3,"end":20961.3,"text":"這個數字是怎麼訂出來"},{"start":20961.3,"end":20962.3,"text":"為什麼不是30%"},{"start":20962.3,"end":20964.3,"text":"不是10% 而是20%"},{"start":20964.3,"end":20965.3,"text":"是為什麼"},{"start":20965.3,"end":20967.3,"text":"就是專家大家討論出來的"},{"start":20967.3,"end":20969.3,"text":"那專家是根據什麼"},{"start":20969.3,"end":20970.3,"text":"那是怎麼樣 半杯喔"},{"start":20970.3,"end":20972.3,"text":"那是怎麼訂出來的20%嘛"},{"start":20972.3,"end":20974.3,"text":"是指骰子還是怎麼樣"},{"start":20974.3,"end":20976.3,"text":"那20%是怎麼訂出來的嘛"},{"start":20976.3,"end":20977.3,"text":"大家一起討論"},{"start":20978.29,"end":20979.29,"text":"我聽說好像是說"},{"start":20979.29,"end":20981.29,"text":"因為你們那時候超標4倍啦"},{"start":20981.29,"end":20983.29,"text":"所以如果20%的話就除以5%"},{"start":20983.29,"end":20984.29,"text":"我就不超標了"},{"start":20984.29,"end":20986.29,"text":"當然是根據當時候的意思"},{"start":20986.29,"end":20987.29,"text":"就很粗糙嘛"},{"start":20987.29,"end":20988.29,"text":"所以現在大家才會講說"},{"start":20988.29,"end":20989.29,"text":"到底怎麼訂的嘛"},{"start":20989.29,"end":20990.29,"text":"就很粗糙"},{"start":20990.29,"end":20991.29,"text":"然後才會想要看會議紀錄嘛"},{"start":20991.29,"end":20993.29,"text":"那今天又被爆出來說"},{"start":20993.29,"end":20995.29,"text":"那個時候中聯職的人在現場"},{"start":20995.29,"end":20996.29,"text":"那部長你有說"},{"start":20997.98,"end":20998.98,"text":"因為要看復工"},{"start":20998.98,"end":20999.98,"text":"他要說明他的製程"},{"start":20999.98,"end":21000.98,"text":"有沒有復工的機會嘛"},{"start":21000.98,"end":21002.98,"text":"你是說他在說明這件事情嘛"},{"start":21002.98,"end":21003.98,"text":"對不對"},{"start":21003.98,"end":21004.98,"text":"因為當時候的專家會議"},{"start":21004.98,"end":21006.98,"text":"不是只有討論這個下架"},{"start":21006.98,"end":21007.98,"text":"我知道喔"},{"start":21007.98,"end":21008.98,"text":"因為我的時間有限"},{"start":21008.98,"end":21010.98,"text":"所以我們不要去重複我的問題"},{"start":21010.98,"end":21011.98,"text":"就是我剛剛已經講了嘛"},{"start":21011.98,"end":21013.98,"text":"他是來報告那件事情"},{"start":21013.98,"end":21014.98,"text":"他不是來參與20%討論"},{"start":21014.98,"end":21016.98,"text":"但現在大家想要知道的是"},{"start":21016.98,"end":21019.98,"text":"那請問一下他來就立刻離開嗎"},{"start":21019.98,"end":21021.98,"text":"還是那個會他從頭到尾都在場"},{"start":21021.98,"end":21022.98,"text":"雖然他不是來討論"},{"start":21022.98,"end":21023.98,"text":"他在不在場"},{"start":21023.98,"end":21026.98,"text":"後段討論到這個下架原則"},{"start":21026.98,"end":21027.98,"text":"他就離席了"},{"start":21027.98,"end":21028.98,"text":"他報告完就離席了"},{"start":21028.98,"end":21029.98,"text":"報告完就走了"},{"start":21029.98,"end":21030.98,"text":"報告完就走了"},{"start":21030.98,"end":21032.98,"text":"那為什麼你要在同一個會議"},{"start":21032.98,"end":21033.98,"text":"安排這樣的議程"},{"start":21033.98,"end":21036.98,"text":"關係人還可以到現場來報告"},{"start":21036.98,"end":21038.98,"text":"為什麼不分兩個會議咧"},{"start":21038.98,"end":21040.98,"text":"反正他就會遇到那些專家"},{"start":21040.98,"end":21042.98,"text":"誰知道會不會在專家會議的時候"},{"start":21042.98,"end":21044.98,"text":"他看到哪些專家去影響人家"},{"start":21044.98,"end":21046.98,"text":"然後去在外面吃飯"},{"start":21046.98,"end":21047.98,"text":"然後在外面碰到的時候"},{"start":21047.98,"end":21049.98,"text":"去跟人家聊天"},{"start":21049.98,"end":21051.98,"text":"就是說你連這個東西都不會說避嫌"},{"start":21051.98,"end":21054.98,"text":"你可以開兩個會嘛"},{"start":21054.98,"end":21056.98,"text":"一個會是針對中聯址"},{"start":21056.98,"end":21057.98,"text":"要不要復工的會"},{"start":21057.98,"end":21060.98,"text":"另外一個會是討論20%"},{"start":21060.98,"end":21062.98,"text":"或後續的議題的會"},{"start":21062.98,"end":21063.98,"text":"怎麼讓人家覺得說"},{"start":21063.98,"end":21065.98,"text":"為什麼他可以來"},{"start":21065.98,"end":21068.98,"text":"跟這個同一天可以碰到"},{"start":21068.98,"end":21070.98,"text":"我覺得大家會質疑嘛"},{"start":21070.98,"end":21071.98,"text":"開會有效率啦"},{"start":21071.98,"end":21073.98,"text":"其實要考慮到一下"},{"start":21073.98,"end":21076.98,"text":"我期待再兩分鐘"},{"start":21076.98,"end":21077.98,"text":"我問另外一個問題"},{"start":21077.98,"end":21080.98,"text":"請那個國教署來一下好不好"},{"start":21082.15,"end":21084.15,"text":"國教署"},{"start":21084.15,"end":21085.15,"text":"好一分鐘內國教署"},{"start":21085.15,"end":21086.15,"text":"部長謝謝"},{"start":21089.92,"end":21090.92,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":21093.33,"end":21094.33,"text":"這個署長啊"},{"start":21094.33,"end":21095.33,"text":"今天台北市爆發一個"},{"start":21095.33,"end":21097.33,"text":"非常誇張的一個校恩事件"},{"start":21097.33,"end":21099.33,"text":"一個台北市的A生"},{"start":21099.33,"end":21101.33,"text":"小一入學之後呢"},{"start":21101.33,"end":21103.33,"text":"對老師都動出好幾次"},{"start":21103.33,"end":21105.33,"text":"累計校恩通報高達100次以上"},{"start":21105.33,"end":21107.33,"text":"今年上半年就46次"},{"start":21107.33,"end":21109.33,"text":"然後攻擊同學58次"},{"start":21109.33,"end":21111.33,"text":"破壞公務18次"},{"start":21111.33,"end":21113.33,"text":"結果現在學校完全對"},{"start":21113.96,"end":21115.96,"text":"沒有任何的辦法可以處理他"},{"start":21115.96,"end":21116.96,"text":"沒有任何的辦法"},{"start":21116.96,"end":21118.96,"text":"結果老師國三"},{"start":21118.96,"end":21120.96,"text":"三年級的老師崩潰啦"},{"start":21120.96,"end":21121.96,"text":"揚言自殘"},{"start":21121.96,"end":21123.96,"text":"四年級的老師脊椎受傷"},{"start":21124.09,"end":21125.09,"text":"是的"},{"start":21125.27,"end":21127.27,"text":"這個我之前在其他地方跟你討論很多次啦"},{"start":21127.27,"end":21129.27,"text":"現在這個東西已經變常態了"},{"start":21129.27,"end":21131.27,"text":"我覺得國教署因為今天這個時間關係"},{"start":21131.27,"end":21133.27,"text":"國教署一定要重視"},{"start":21133.27,"end":21135.27,"text":"第二件事情韓國現在很多縣市已經"},{"start":21135.27,"end":21137.27,"text":"地方政府已經成立教權局"},{"start":21137.27,"end":21139.27,"text":"當然不是跟鐵拳教育一樣"},{"start":21139.27,"end":21140.27,"text":"找一個人去動出"},{"start":21140.27,"end":21142.27,"text":"而是說當老師面臨到這種"},{"start":21142.27,"end":21144.27,"text":"被學生霸凌的情況"},{"start":21144.27,"end":21145.27,"text":"我們怎麼在行政支持"},{"start":21145.27,"end":21148.27,"text":"精神支持跟法律支持的部分"},{"start":21148.27,"end":21149.27,"text":"給老師支持"},{"start":21149.27,"end":21151.27,"text":"不然現在當老師風險這麼高"},{"start":21151.27,"end":21153.27,"text":"被學生打"},{"start":21153.27,"end":21155.27,"text":"那這些學生你現在到底要怎麼處理"},{"start":21155.27,"end":21157.27,"text":"因為只要一個這個學生全班毀了"},{"start":21157.27,"end":21158.27,"text":"連老師都毀了"},{"start":21158.27,"end":21160.27,"text":"所以請你們再仔細思考一下"},{"start":21160.27,"end":21162.27,"text":"我提的校園安全法案"},{"start":21162.27,"end":21164.27,"text":"好不好趕快找時間來討論"},{"start":21164.27,"end":21165.27,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":21165.27,"end":21166.27,"text":"謝謝葉言之委員"},{"start":21166.27,"end":21167.27,"text":"簡單回應一下"},{"start":21167.27,"end":21169.27,"text":"那簡單回應一下"},{"start":21169.27,"end":21171.27,"text":"沈柏楊委員"},{"start":21171.27,"end":21173.27,"text":"沈柏楊委員不在"},{"start":21173.27,"end":21176.27,"text":"那接下來我們要做會議宣告"},{"start":21179.05,"end":21182.05,"text":"會議詢答全部結束"},{"start":21182.05,"end":21183.05,"text":"現在做一下決議"},{"start":21183.05,"end":21185.05,"text":"第一說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":21185.05,"end":21188.05,"text":"第二委員質詢未及答覆"},{"start":21188.05,"end":21189.05,"text":"或請補充資料者"},{"start":21189.05,"end":21192.05,"text":"請相關機關於兩週內"},{"start":21192.05,"end":21193.05,"text":"以書面答覆"},{"start":21193.05,"end":21195.05,"text":"委員命要求期限者"},{"start":21195.05,"end":21196.05,"text":"重啟鎖定"},{"start":21196.8,"end":21200.8,"text":"委員許心儀 傅坤琪 蘇清泉 沈柏楊 吳宗憲"},{"start":21200.8,"end":21203.8,"text":"所提書面資料列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":21204.7,"end":21209.7,"text":"委員陳冠廷等18人凝聚安樂死法的草案"},{"start":21209.93,"end":21211.93,"text":"及台灣民眾黨民聚"},{"start":21212.4,"end":21215.4,"text":"黨團凝聚尊嚴善終法草案"},{"start":21215.4,"end":21217.4,"text":"尚未審查完畢"},{"start":21217.4,"end":21219.4,"text":"另擇期繼續審查"},{"start":21219.4,"end":21220.4,"text":"本次會議到此結束"},{"start":21220.4,"end":21221.4,"text":"現在散會"},{"start":21223.4,"end":21225.4,"text":"10分鐘後與本會議是進行"},{"start":21225.4,"end":21228.4,"text":"《淹害防治法》部分條文修正草案"},{"start":21228.4,"end":21229.4,"text":"黨團協商會議"},{"start":21229.4,"end":21230.4,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}