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第十都是他們的"},{"start":1042.02,"end":1044.1,"text":"好 我想在這裡再講一遍"},{"start":1044.1,"end":1045.46,"text":"本人表示反對"},{"start":1045.46,"end":1046.66,"text":"第一個就是說"},{"start":1046.66,"end":1049.6200000000001,"text":"我們整個菸害防治法"},{"start":1049.6200000000001,"end":1052.94,"text":"包括整個全世界的衛生組織"},{"start":1052.94,"end":1055.26,"text":"包括台灣的國家政策"},{"start":1055.26,"end":1057.9,"text":"我們都希望這個菸潮產業"},{"start":1057.9,"end":1060.14,"text":"整個市場是要縮小的"},{"start":1060.14,"end":1062.26,"text":"這個是我們努力的目標"},{"start":1062.26,"end":1064.42,"text":"雖然是一個理想狀況"},{"start":1064.42,"end":1066.22,"text":"但是我們沒有理由支持"},{"start":1066.22,"end":1068.7,"text":"讓菸潮產業擴大"},{"start":1068.7,"end":1070.22,"text":"第一個 第二個"},{"start":1070.46,"end":1072.18,"text":"我們國內 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這是最核心的"},{"start":1096.94,"end":1099.54,"text":"就是說雖然出口跟國內"},{"start":1099.54,"end":1101.86,"text":"國內使用是分流規劃"},{"start":1101.86,"end":1105.86,"text":"但是輸出會不會流到國內市場"},{"start":1105.86,"end":1108.54,"text":"這個會徒增風險"},{"start":1108.54,"end":1109.62,"text":"徒增風險"},{"start":1109.62,"end":1111.86,"text":"本來是百分之一百零風險"},{"start":1111.86,"end":1113.54,"text":"我們為什麼要開放"},{"start":1113.54,"end":1116.02,"text":"然後再增加回流的風險"},{"start":1116.02,"end":1117.62,"text":"一點道理都沒有"},{"start":1117.62,"end":1118.8999999999999,"text":"最後我要講"},{"start":1118.8999999999999,"end":1121.54,"text":"就是說基本上讓產業萎縮"},{"start":1121.54,"end":1123.26,"text":"然後把它管制得越嚴格"},{"start":1123.26,"end":1126.34,"text":"然後基本要通過健康風險的"},{"start":1126.34,"end":1127.58,"text":"評估案審查"},{"start":1127.58,"end":1128.42,"text":"這個是基本"},{"start":1128.46,"end":1131.66,"text":"你如果有在通過健康風險的評估案審查"},{"start":1131.66,"end":1132.98,"text":"我也沒有話說"},{"start":1132.98,"end":1134.9,"text":"就目前的遊戲規則"},{"start":1134.9,"end":1137.6200000000001,"text":"但是你不要改掉遊戲規則"},{"start":1137.6200000000001,"end":1139.78,"text":"然後要開放分流"},{"start":1139.78,"end":1141.8200000000002,"text":"分流還是會回流"},{"start":1141.8200000000002,"end":1144.02,"text":"所以在這裡本人堅決的主張"},{"start":1144.02,"end":1147.22,"text":"第七條跟第十條都不予修正"},{"start":1147.22,"end":1147.7,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1148.85,"end":1150.61,"text":"好 等一下麻煩現場"},{"start":1150.61,"end":1151.61,"text":"委員在講話的時候"},{"start":1151.61,"end":1153.1299999999999,"text":"可能音量要降"},{"start":1153.1299999999999,"end":1155.77,"text":"剛剛林淑雯委員在講的時候"},{"start":1155.77,"end":1157.1699999999998,"text":"可能很多人未必聽到"},{"start":1157.75,"end":1159.79,"text":"接下來有誰要發言"},{"start":1159.79,"end":1160.15,"text":"委員"},{"start":1161.28,"end":1162.68,"text":"陳昌明委員"},{"start":1164.24,"end":1169.76,"text":"首先我跟林委員的意見觀點是不同的"},{"start":1170.4,"end":1175.24,"text":"那目前第七條的修正案是關於家委員"},{"start":1175.9,"end":1179.3400000000001,"text":"我請每一個委員在場觀點了解"},{"start":1181.5,"end":1183.22,"text":"在這個家委員"},{"start":1183.22,"end":1186.98,"text":"家熱院裡面"},{"start":1186.98,"end":1191.38,"text":"全世界只有美國跟台灣"},{"start":1191.38,"end":1194.38,"text":"有健康風險的評估"},{"start":1194.38,"end":1197.78,"text":"包括日本在國內銷售的時候"},{"start":1197.78,"end":1200.78,"text":"也沒有健康風險的評估"},{"start":1200.78,"end":1204.14,"text":"因為這個家熱院裡面是更從"},{"start":1204.14,"end":1207.5,"text":"我們一般院裡面再發展出來的"},{"start":1207.5,"end":1208.7,"text":"那在這裡面"},{"start":1208.74,"end":1212.14,"text":"我是指張要給我們台灣的煙場"},{"start":1212.14,"end":1215.66,"text":"一個國際競爭的聚會"},{"start":1215.66,"end":1220.22,"text":"你只要符合日國的規範就可以了"},{"start":1220.22,"end":1221.8600000000001,"text":"沒有那麼清高"},{"start":1221.8600000000001,"end":1223.74,"text":"世界都在競爭"},{"start":1223.74,"end":1228.7,"text":"這是第七條我所堅持的觀點"},{"start":1228.7,"end":1230.7,"text":"應該要給產業有聚會"},{"start":1230.7,"end":1234.06,"text":"至於有沒有台灣有沒有生產煙草"},{"start":1234.06,"end":1236.18,"text":"日本也沒有生產煙草"},{"start":1236.18,"end":1238.38,"text":"美國也沒有生產煙草"},{"start":1238.42,"end":1240.42,"text":"幾乎都在國外生產"},{"start":1240.42,"end":1243.98,"text":"在落後的地方生產跟去後有關係"},{"start":1243.98,"end":1246.8600000000001,"text":"至於就業的聚會"},{"start":1246.8600000000001,"end":1248.8600000000001,"text":"包括這些煙場加起來"},{"start":1248.8600000000001,"end":1250.98,"text":"大概有超過兩千萬"},{"start":1250.98,"end":1253.5,"text":"不,兩千人的就業聚會"},{"start":1253.5,"end":1255.3000000000002,"text":"也未嘗不可"},{"start":1255.3000000000002,"end":1259.18,"text":"那我們很多的方面都是從煙方面來"},{"start":1259.18,"end":1261.5800000000002,"text":"保障國人的一個安全"},{"start":1261.5800000000002,"end":1263.46,"text":"有時候說大家講不好"},{"start":1263.46,"end":1265.2600000000002,"text":"我會覺得不怎麼好"},{"start":1265.2600000000002,"end":1268.22,"text":"但是有人勇於犧牲自己"},{"start":1268.26,"end":1270.26,"text":"來照顧其他的人"},{"start":1270.26,"end":1271.26,"text":"也是一種方式"},{"start":1271.26,"end":1275.26,"text":"不然這種世界上沒有人像台灣的"},{"start":1275.26,"end":1276.94,"text":"限制的那麼嚴格"},{"start":1276.94,"end":1278.78,"text":"這是我個人的觀點"},{"start":1278.78,"end":1282.1000000000001,"text":"我也希望我們衛福部"},{"start":1282.1000000000001,"end":1286.14,"text":"能從經濟產業發展的腳步"},{"start":1286.14,"end":1288.26,"text":"來支持這個法案"},{"start":1288.26,"end":1292.1000000000001,"text":"讓產業有一個生存的聚會"},{"start":1292.1000000000001,"end":1292.58,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1296.35,"end":1301.75,"text":"先請衛福部回應兩位委員不同的意見"},{"start":1312.18,"end":1313.0600000000002,"text":"蘇清宣緯"},{"start":1315.3799999999999,"end":1317.4599999999998,"text":"我上次也有提到"},{"start":1317.4599999999998,"end":1319.54,"text":"就我們台灣的"},{"start":1320.82,"end":1322.6599999999999,"text":"燃料藥跟藥品"},{"start":1323.86,"end":1327.82,"text":"事實上有很多是台灣沒有在使用的"},{"start":1328.96,"end":1330.64,"text":"要有的銷到美國"},{"start":1330.64,"end":1331.96,"text":"銷到其他國家"},{"start":1331.96,"end":1335.3600000000001,"text":"都要照原始國家他的要求"},{"start":1335.94,"end":1338.66,"text":"基本上我們衛福部是不會去管理"},{"start":1338.66,"end":1342.3,"text":"這也是樂觀其成"},{"start":1342.3,"end":1344.94,"text":"那吃粉是壞事"},{"start":1344.94,"end":1349.54,"text":"臨床醫師看抽菸是不好的"},{"start":1349.54,"end":1351.02,"text":"大家都不要抽菸"},{"start":1351.02,"end":1352.8600000000001,"text":"但是這幾千年來"},{"start":1352.8600000000001,"end":1354.3400000000001,"text":"好像也沒辦法消滅掉"},{"start":1354.3400000000001,"end":1357.18,"text":"既然這是一個商業行為"},{"start":1358.23,"end":1360.99,"text":"他們要求能夠煙草出口"},{"start":1360.99,"end":1362.47,"text":"或者是紙煙出口"},{"start":1362.47,"end":1363.43,"text":"或怎麼樣"},{"start":1363.43,"end":1365.63,"text":"只要能符合那個原始"},{"start":1365.63,"end":1367.63,"text":"他的要輸出國"},{"start":1367.63,"end":1369.07,"text":"他的嚴格的規定"},{"start":1369.07,"end":1370.23,"text":"這樣就可以了"},{"start":1370.23,"end":1371.27,"text":"這是第一"},{"start":1371.27,"end":1375.03,"text":"第二你怕出口又被廢了回來"},{"start":1375.03,"end":1376.23,"text":"那是另外一個事情"},{"start":1376.23,"end":1377.43,"text":"另外一個議題"},{"start":1377.43,"end":1379.99,"text":"那就是變成你又被廢了回來"},{"start":1379.99,"end":1381.47,"text":"這管理問題"},{"start":1381.47,"end":1382.75,"text":"那是財政部"},{"start":1382.75,"end":1383.71,"text":"那是衛福部"},{"start":1383.71,"end":1385.91,"text":"你的管理 邊境管理等等"},{"start":1385.91,"end":1387.63,"text":"你不能說怕他"},{"start":1387.67,"end":1389.47,"text":"將來會回流到臺灣"},{"start":1389.47,"end":1391.91,"text":"那這個講話有點邏輯"},{"start":1391.91,"end":1393.1100000000001,"text":"比較不通"},{"start":1393.1100000000001,"end":1395.2700000000002,"text":"所以這兩條"},{"start":1395.2700000000002,"end":1396.91,"text":"第七條 第十條"},{"start":1396.91,"end":1398.71,"text":"如果說業者"},{"start":1398.71,"end":1400.7900000000002,"text":"有一個需求生存"},{"start":1400.7900000000002,"end":1404.2700000000002,"text":"然後他別的國家也很嚴格的要求"},{"start":1404.2700000000002,"end":1406.91,"text":"我們在主管單位應該也是"},{"start":1409.37,"end":1411.1299999999999,"text":"應該也不會可以禁止"},{"start":1411.1299999999999,"end":1413.1299999999999,"text":"所以我們還是希望能夠"},{"start":1414.04,"end":1415.2,"text":"讓他們能夠出口"},{"start":1415.2,"end":1415.6,"text":"以上"},{"start":1420.1399999999999,"end":1421.3799999999999,"text":"邱政軍委員"},{"start":1421.3799999999999,"end":1422.62,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":1422.62,"end":1426.58,"text":"我也是支持我們陳昌明委員的這個看法"},{"start":1426.58,"end":1429.02,"text":"因為他現在"},{"start":1429.02,"end":1431.3799999999999,"text":"我覺得我們的產業"},{"start":1431.3799999999999,"end":1433.82,"text":"他本身就有這個"},{"start":1433.82,"end":1435.82,"text":"造就了很多的工作機會"},{"start":1435.82,"end":1437.62,"text":"那也養活了很多家庭"},{"start":1437.62,"end":1439.94,"text":"那今天的爭點就是說"},{"start":1439.94,"end":1441.02,"text":"我們不在國內"},{"start":1441.02,"end":1442.6599999999999,"text":"國內在販賣的時候"},{"start":1442.6599999999999,"end":1445.1,"text":"他只是出口"},{"start":1445.1,"end":1447.22,"text":"那就可以造就我們"},{"start":1447.22,"end":1449.54,"text":"這個國人的一些工作機會"},{"start":1449.54,"end":1451.46,"text":"我想這是非常好的一點"},{"start":1451.46,"end":1453.18,"text":"那另外剛剛也有講到就是說"},{"start":1453.18,"end":1457.06,"text":"他如果走勢進來再回流的話"},{"start":1457.06,"end":1459.02,"text":"這本來海關在"},{"start":1459.02,"end":1461.6599999999999,"text":"這個部分本來就已經在做的事情"},{"start":1461.6599999999999,"end":1463.58,"text":"已經在做防堵的事情"},{"start":1463.58,"end":1464.98,"text":"那我覺得我們應該相信"},{"start":1464.98,"end":1466.3799999999999,"text":"我們自己的海關"},{"start":1466.3799999999999,"end":1468.86,"text":"他能夠有能力去阻止這個事情"},{"start":1468.86,"end":1470.06,"text":"因為他不可能說"},{"start":1470.06,"end":1472.86,"text":"因為有出口這個菸"},{"start":1472.86,"end":1475.46,"text":"所以我們就"},{"start":1475.46,"end":1477.1,"text":"對海關這邊來就"},{"start":1477.1,"end":1479.3,"text":"不再做嚴格的審查"},{"start":1479.34,"end":1482.8999999999999,"text":"跟這個把關"},{"start":1482.8999999999999,"end":1484.4199999999998,"text":"所以我想這個部分"},{"start":1484.4199999999998,"end":1486.22,"text":"應該是不會發生的事情"},{"start":1486.22,"end":1488.06,"text":"這本來就應該要做的事情"},{"start":1488.06,"end":1490.94,"text":"不會造成我們基層公務人員的一個負擔"},{"start":1490.94,"end":1492.34,"text":"以上是我的看法"},{"start":1492.34,"end":1492.6599999999999,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1492.6599999999999,"end":1493.74,"text":"好 林處分委員"},{"start":1495.92,"end":1497.16,"text":"抱歉 蘇委員"},{"start":1497.16,"end":1500.2800000000002,"text":"我沒有辦法接受你說我邏輯不通"},{"start":1500.2800000000002,"end":1502.68,"text":"因為你可能上回"},{"start":1502.68,"end":1504.8000000000002,"text":"你這樣的觀點"},{"start":1504.8000000000002,"end":1506.8400000000001,"text":"我回答的時候你已經離開了"},{"start":1506.8400000000001,"end":1508.5200000000002,"text":"所以你沒有聽我講過"},{"start":1508.5200000000002,"end":1509.92,"text":"我再講一遍"},{"start":1509.92,"end":1511.64,"text":"你講的原尿藥"},{"start":1511.64,"end":1512.96,"text":"在國內沒有許可"},{"start":1512.96,"end":1515.6000000000001,"text":"但是還可以製造輸出"},{"start":1515.6000000000001,"end":1517.16,"text":"藥是救命的"},{"start":1517.16,"end":1520.4,"text":"煙草是殺人命的"},{"start":1520.4,"end":1525.44,"text":"煙草是被IARC列為第一級的致癌物"},{"start":1525.44,"end":1527.04,"text":"煙草吸煙"},{"start":1527.04,"end":1529.68,"text":"是第一級的致癌物"},{"start":1529.68,"end":1532.68,"text":"煙草是害命的"},{"start":1532.68,"end":1533.92,"text":"藥是救命的"},{"start":1533.92,"end":1536.4,"text":"你不能兩個拿起來類比"},{"start":1536.4,"end":1537.3200000000002,"text":"第一個"},{"start":1537.3200000000002,"end":1538.3600000000001,"text":"第二個"},{"start":1538.3600000000001,"end":1540.28,"text":"不要言必稱產業"},{"start":1540.28,"end":1542.0800000000002,"text":"言必稱就業機會"},{"start":1542.0800000000002,"end":1544.92,"text":"台灣根本目前就沒有這麼大的產業"},{"start":1544.92,"end":1546.76,"text":"也沒有這一種就業需求"},{"start":1546.76,"end":1550.2,"text":"而我們沒有必要壯大這一種產業"},{"start":1550.2,"end":1551.48,"text":"第三個"},{"start":1551.48,"end":1552.96,"text":"你們講說"},{"start":1553,"end":1555.28,"text":"等一下走私回流"},{"start":1555.28,"end":1556.88,"text":"我們這是要外銷的"},{"start":1556.88,"end":1558.08,"text":"那回流的話"},{"start":1558.08,"end":1561.2,"text":"管理面是管理面執行法律的人"},{"start":1561.2,"end":1562.32,"text":"要去管理的"},{"start":1562.32,"end":1563.52,"text":"這個邏輯不通"},{"start":1563.52,"end":1564.48,"text":"你說我邏輯不通"},{"start":1564.48,"end":1566.1200000000001,"text":"我才覺得我認為你們不通"},{"start":1566.1200000000001,"end":1567.76,"text":"你上游開放了"},{"start":1567.76,"end":1569.8400000000001,"text":"再叫下游海關去抓"},{"start":1569.8400000000001,"end":1572.24,"text":"再叫下游警察去抓"},{"start":1572.24,"end":1574.48,"text":"他們你一直上游不斷的開放"},{"start":1574.48,"end":1575.52,"text":"然後在下面抓"},{"start":1575.52,"end":1576.8400000000001,"text":"永遠都抓不完"},{"start":1577.56,"end":1580.04,"text":"那為什麼直接不把門關起來就好了"},{"start":1580.04,"end":1581.8799999999999,"text":"通通都不用抓呢"},{"start":1583.52,"end":1585.6,"text":"而且我們的終極目標"},{"start":1585.6,"end":1587.36,"text":"就是要消滅這個產業"},{"start":1587.36,"end":1589.96,"text":"你們為什麼言必稱發展產業呢"},{"start":1590.73,"end":1596.17,"text":"我們怎麼會是發展香菸煙草產業呢"},{"start":1596.17,"end":1598.77,"text":"我們是要以讓它產業為縮"},{"start":1598.77,"end":1601.17,"text":"消滅這個產業為目標"},{"start":1601.17,"end":1603.97,"text":"結果你們都言必稱產業發展"},{"start":1603.97,"end":1605.45,"text":"我就聽不下去了"},{"start":1605.45,"end":1606.77,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西"},{"start":1606.77,"end":1608.53,"text":"我覺得再多講"},{"start":1608.53,"end":1609.93,"text":"講一遍兩遍三遍"},{"start":1609.93,"end":1611.41,"text":"他也是都講一樣"},{"start":1611.41,"end":1612.69,"text":"我也是一樣"},{"start":1612.69,"end":1614.01,"text":"所以這一條主席"},{"start":1614.01,"end":1616.45,"text":"我認為是沒有辦法達成共識了"},{"start":1617.62,"end":1620.1399999999999,"text":"我相信觀點取義很大"},{"start":1620.1399999999999,"end":1622.06,"text":"沒有辦法達成共識"},{"start":1622.7,"end":1625.22,"text":"但是也請林委員曉答"},{"start":1625.22,"end":1629.42,"text":"所有煙草都是最先進國家當老闆的"},{"start":1629.42,"end":1630.78,"text":"我只是提醒"},{"start":1630.78,"end":1633.38,"text":"所以這個世界就長成這樣"},{"start":1633.38,"end":1634.42,"text":"別人能做"},{"start":1634.42,"end":1635.46,"text":"台灣不能做"},{"start":1635.46,"end":1637.0600000000002,"text":"我覺得不合理"},{"start":1637.0600000000002,"end":1638.14,"text":"那取義很大"},{"start":1638.14,"end":1640.38,"text":"我是建議主席"},{"start":1640.38,"end":1642.0600000000002,"text":"我們送到燕尾學校"},{"start":1643.34,"end":1645.6599999999999,"text":"講到久也是整個觀點而已"},{"start":1646.73,"end":1649.3700000000001,"text":"為什麼那個先進國家"},{"start":1649.3700000000001,"end":1651.0900000000001,"text":"比我們日本還先進"},{"start":1651.0900000000001,"end":1653.13,"text":"比我們台灣還先進的國家"},{"start":1653.13,"end":1656.3700000000001,"text":"譬如說美國 日本 歐洲"},{"start":1656.3700000000001,"end":1657.3300000000002,"text":"你去看"},{"start":1657.3300000000002,"end":1660.29,"text":"那些煙草的老闆都是這幾個國家"},{"start":1660.87,"end":1663.27,"text":"我只是說觀點取義一樣"},{"start":1663.27,"end":1664.9499999999998,"text":"今天怎麼討論"},{"start":1664.9499999999998,"end":1667.31,"text":"一定討論不完的"},{"start":1667.31,"end":1670.83,"text":"那我想建議主席送到燕尾學校"},{"start":1674.29,"end":1676.97,"text":"陳昭明委員建議保留"},{"start":1676.97,"end":1680.49,"text":"那就第七 第十條都一併保留"},{"start":1680.49,"end":1682.05,"text":"那其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":1682.05,"end":1686.17,"text":"沒有的話我們就直接第七條跟第十條"},{"start":1686.17,"end":1687.45,"text":"我們就保留"},{"start":1692.76,"end":1694.8,"text":"那接下來第十五條之一"},{"start":1695.92,"end":1696.52,"text":"第十 欸"},{"start":1697.49,"end":1700.3700000000001,"text":"第七條跟第十條"},{"start":1703.73,"end":1705.05,"text":"第九條已經通過了"},{"start":1706.25,"end":1707.49,"text":"第九上次已經"},{"start":1709.85,"end":1711.45,"text":"上次第九條已經修正通過了"},{"start":1711.45,"end":1712.6499999999999,"text":"第九條報告主席"},{"start":1712.6499999999999,"end":1713.1699999999998,"text":"我剛剛"},{"start":1715.14,"end":1717.0200000000002,"text":"我剛剛有跟那個"},{"start":1718.32,"end":1719.92,"text":"王志希修正動議"},{"start":1719.92,"end":1721.72,"text":"他的提案我跟他溝通"},{"start":1721.72,"end":1724.04,"text":"現在我們台灣現在的"},{"start":1724.04,"end":1726.16,"text":"這是一包加熱菸在這裡"},{"start":1726.16,"end":1728.16,"text":"大家可能沒抽菸都不知道"},{"start":1728.16,"end":1730.28,"text":"我們台灣現在就長成這個樣子"},{"start":1730.28,"end":1732.52,"text":"就是50%"},{"start":1732.52,"end":1734.2,"text":"50%的土黨"},{"start":1734.93,"end":1735.8100000000002,"text":"那現在"},{"start":1736.77,"end":1739.17,"text":"直接給他弄到85%"},{"start":1741.49,"end":1743.5700000000002,"text":"我現在跟大家報告"},{"start":1743.5700000000002,"end":1744.0900000000001,"text":"這個"},{"start":1744.0900000000001,"end":1747.3700000000001,"text":"我們台灣正考的分都是世界大國"},{"start":1747.3700000000001,"end":1750.5700000000002,"text":"瑞士 美國 日本的演唱會"},{"start":1750.5700000000002,"end":1752.0900000000001,"text":"所以一直在說"},{"start":1752.81,"end":1754.25,"text":"分都忙做"},{"start":1754.25,"end":1755.93,"text":"結果外國做比我們多"},{"start":1755.93,"end":1757.53,"text":"外國比我們強勢"},{"start":1757.53,"end":1760.53,"text":"連美僑商會什麼都在關心"},{"start":1761.4399999999998,"end":1763.3999999999999,"text":"我剛剛跟那個"},{"start":1763.3999999999999,"end":1764.4399999999998,"text":"王志希委員說"},{"start":1764.4399999999998,"end":1766,"text":"他說50%的警議"},{"start":1766,"end":1767.1999999999998,"text":"他是沒有辦法接受"},{"start":1767.1999999999998,"end":1770.36,"text":"那如果用到85%等於整個"},{"start":1770.97,"end":1774.13,"text":"農中是土黨"},{"start":1774.13,"end":1775.05,"text":"那澳洲就"},{"start":1775.05,"end":1776.49,"text":"澳洲有DATA"},{"start":1776.49,"end":1777.8500000000001,"text":"就是他們的菸"},{"start":1778.83,"end":1781.19,"text":"因為他們用到80%"},{"start":1781.19,"end":1784.75,"text":"結果他們的菸大部分都是走私菸"},{"start":1784.75,"end":1787.47,"text":"10包有8包 7包都是走私菸"},{"start":1787.47,"end":1788.95,"text":"所以他們很嚴重"},{"start":1788.95,"end":1790.67,"text":"所以我的建議"},{"start":1790.67,"end":1791.79,"text":"接收改了"},{"start":1791.79,"end":1793.55,"text":"我們的王志希也有同意"},{"start":1793.55,"end":1796.3899999999999,"text":"我們要拿到60%"},{"start":1796.3899999999999,"end":1799.03,"text":"他一定用85%"},{"start":1799.94,"end":1800.5800000000002,"text":"第九條"},{"start":1800.5800000000002,"end":1801.8200000000002,"text":"好 我的建議是這樣"},{"start":1801.8200000000002,"end":1803.1000000000001,"text":"沒有 我們都不大贏"},{"start":1803.1000000000001,"end":1803.9,"text":"這條通過了"},{"start":1803.9,"end":1805.5800000000002,"text":"可是這已經通過了"},{"start":1805.5800000000002,"end":1806.5,"text":"可能"},{"start":1806.5,"end":1807.38,"text":"哪有人通過"},{"start":1807.38,"end":1808.5800000000002,"text":"然後沒有再"},{"start":1808.5800000000002,"end":1809.02,"text":"其他"},{"start":1809.02,"end":1810.14,"text":"我們也反對"},{"start":1810.14,"end":1811.38,"text":"我們也同意"},{"start":1811.38,"end":1812.02,"text":"再修正"},{"start":1812.02,"end":1812.9,"text":"這樣而已"},{"start":1812.9,"end":1813.74,"text":"我們要再修正"},{"start":1813.74,"end":1814.7800000000002,"text":"我們就再修正"},{"start":1815.98,"end":1818.22,"text":"沒有啦 這今次程序就不符合"},{"start":1819.02,"end":1820.86,"text":"上次學商就通過了"},{"start":1823.1699999999998,"end":1825.1299999999999,"text":"上次學商還是委員會"},{"start":1825.1299999999999,"end":1826.6499999999999,"text":"省差"},{"start":1828,"end":1829.32,"text":"上次通過委員"},{"start":1829.32,"end":1830.16,"text":"他們今天不在場"},{"start":1830.16,"end":1831.32,"text":"我們也不能去否定掉"},{"start":1831.32,"end":1834,"text":"人家上次通過的委員的意見"},{"start":1834,"end":1835.32,"text":"而且上次已經通過了"},{"start":1836.15,"end":1837.15,"text":"你又要再重新"},{"start":1837.15,"end":1838.67,"text":"等於每一條都要"},{"start":1838.67,"end":1840.5500000000002,"text":"都要再重新來過"},{"start":1840.5500000000002,"end":1842.23,"text":"那林處分委員"},{"start":1842.23,"end":1843.8300000000002,"text":"我覺得今天很遺憾"},{"start":1843.8300000000002,"end":1846.39,"text":"聽到這個要倒退爐的修正"},{"start":1846.39,"end":1847.47,"text":"因為老實說"},{"start":1847.47,"end":1849.75,"text":"現在加熱煙販賣的一種形象"},{"start":1849.75,"end":1852.67,"text":"就是優雅 漂亮"},{"start":1852.67,"end":1854.1100000000001,"text":"它看起來不低級"},{"start":1854.1100000000001,"end":1855.67,"text":"抽煙好像很優雅"},{"start":1855.67,"end":1857.15,"text":"可是大家都知道"},{"start":1857.15,"end":1860.71,"text":"這個是包裝行銷的手法"},{"start":1860.71,"end":1863.67,"text":"而且是殘害健康很嚴重"},{"start":1863.67,"end":1866.0700000000002,"text":"而且這樣的假優雅"},{"start":1866.07,"end":1869.1899999999998,"text":"會讓青少年就開始想要抽"},{"start":1869.1899999999998,"end":1871.4299999999998,"text":"所以讓整個煙的包裝"},{"start":1871.4299999999998,"end":1872.87,"text":"85%都這樣"},{"start":1872.87,"end":1874.95,"text":"讓他們看得清清楚楚的"},{"start":1874.95,"end":1876.6699999999998,"text":"這個警示的圖示"},{"start":1876.6699999999998,"end":1878.55,"text":"你會得到這個肺癌"},{"start":1878.55,"end":1881.47,"text":"你會這個器官爛成這個樣子"},{"start":1881.47,"end":1883.3899999999999,"text":"這個你看了就噁心"},{"start":1883.3899999999999,"end":1885.11,"text":"然後你噁心就不想抽"},{"start":1885.11,"end":1886.1899999999998,"text":"不想買"},{"start":1886.1899999999998,"end":1887.6699999999998,"text":"這樣子很好啊"},{"start":1887.6699999999998,"end":1889.47,"text":"這樣子很好啊"},{"start":1889.47,"end":1892.83,"text":"為什麼要把85%再下調到60%"},{"start":1892.83,"end":1895.1899999999998,"text":"這個只有符合煙商的利益"},{"start":1895.76,"end":1897.92,"text":"為什麼要這樣子呢"},{"start":1897.92,"end":1899.24,"text":"我們都已經往前"},{"start":1899.24,"end":1901.16,"text":"大家朝野在這裡"},{"start":1901.16,"end":1904.24,"text":"審查的時候有共識藍綠白"},{"start":1904.24,"end":1906,"text":"都有共識85%"},{"start":1906,"end":1907.16,"text":"結果就你們這幾個來"},{"start":1907.16,"end":1910.24,"text":"要把藍綠白的共識再翻案"},{"start":1910.24,"end":1913.2,"text":"而且是符合煙商的這個講法"},{"start":1913.2,"end":1915.04,"text":"我覺得我們不能接受了"},{"start":1915.6,"end":1918.6799999999998,"text":"不知道為什麼要這樣子的退路"},{"start":1918.6799999999998,"end":1919.72,"text":"沒有道理"},{"start":1919.72,"end":1922.3999999999999,"text":"我們絕對不允許那種假優雅"},{"start":1922.3999999999999,"end":1924.28,"text":"吸引我們的孩子"},{"start":1924.28,"end":1926.8,"text":"強愛我們青少年的健康"},{"start":1926.8,"end":1928.52,"text":"從年輕吸到老"},{"start":1929.6,"end":1930.28,"text":"對不對"},{"start":1930.95,"end":1931.8700000000001,"text":"我們反對"},{"start":1932.83,"end":1935.59,"text":"這條維持委員會審查結果"},{"start":1935.59,"end":1937.7099999999998,"text":"依照委員會程序"},{"start":1937.7099999999998,"end":1938.31,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1939.34,"end":1942.38,"text":"所以王委員不可以隨便答應人家"},{"start":1942.38,"end":1945.38,"text":"來我們第15條之一"},{"start":1950.46,"end":1952.14,"text":"第15條之一是"},{"start":1953.11,"end":1956.83,"text":"網際網路業者的這個管理的部分"},{"start":1956.83,"end":1961.07,"text":"那這個部分其實就遵照委員討論的意見"},{"start":1961.07,"end":1965.07,"text":"把善良管理人的部分改為管理義務"},{"start":1965.07,"end":1968.35,"text":"那另外也在第四項跟第七項"},{"start":1968.35,"end":1970.9099999999999,"text":"增加了委員建議的一些文字"},{"start":1970.9099999999999,"end":1973.59,"text":"然後並且在立法說明的部分"},{"start":1973.59,"end":1976.9099999999999,"text":"去增加網際網路業者的一些樣態"},{"start":1976.9099999999999,"end":1978.3899999999999,"text":"的一些說明"},{"start":1978.3899999999999,"end":1981.51,"text":"所以這部分就是已經"},{"start":1981.51,"end":1984.23,"text":"主管機關已經有按照這個部分做調整了"},{"start":1986.57,"end":1988.9299999999998,"text":"委員有沒有意見"},{"start":1989.58,"end":1992.62,"text":"因為徵詢委員之前是有對於個資"},{"start":1992.62,"end":1995.6599999999999,"text":"然後他變成是用戶註冊資料"},{"start":2000.41,"end":2000.73,"text":"唷"},{"start":2002.22,"end":2003.26,"text":"是 我沒有意見"},{"start":2003.26,"end":2004.66,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2004.66,"end":2008.26,"text":"那的確個人資料相較之下"},{"start":2008.26,"end":2010.5,"text":"範圍會非常非常的大"},{"start":2010.5,"end":2013.22,"text":"所以如果用這樣的部分的話"},{"start":2013.22,"end":2017.18,"text":"理論上應該是會同樣有達到他的需求"},{"start":2017.18,"end":2019.54,"text":"可是又不至於讓這個個人的資料"},{"start":2019.54,"end":2022.82,"text":"無限制的去透過這個方式去處理"},{"start":2022.82,"end":2023.22,"text":"以上"},{"start":2028.73,"end":2031.09,"text":"那是不是請我們的行政單位"},{"start":2031.09,"end":2033.49,"text":"把剛才這所有文字再唸一遍"},{"start":2033.49,"end":2034.49,"text":"讓大家確認"},{"start":2037.43,"end":2038.75,"text":"第15條"},{"start":2041.11,"end":2043.6299999999999,"text":"報告召委我是不是宣讀有修改過的文字"},{"start":2043.6299999999999,"end":2045.55,"text":"還是整條都唸"},{"start":2045.55,"end":2048.71,"text":"那我宣讀有修改過的文字是"},{"start":2048.71,"end":2052.75,"text":"第15條之一是在網際網路資料"},{"start":2052.75,"end":2056.91,"text":"有第12條或前條第一項鎖定違法情勢"},{"start":2056.91,"end":2059.5899999999997,"text":"以下簡稱違法資訊之餘"},{"start":2059.5899999999997,"end":2063.31,"text":"應盡管理義務實施管理作為"},{"start":2063.31,"end":2065.15,"text":"那另外在第4項的部分"},{"start":2065.15,"end":2068.75,"text":"網際網路業者第一項管理作為"},{"start":2068.79,"end":2072.87,"text":"遁號第二項風險管控機制之適用對象"},{"start":2072.87,"end":2074.67,"text":"遁號必要措施"},{"start":2074.67,"end":2076.47,"text":"遁號防範機制"},{"start":2076.47,"end":2079.79,"text":"及其他應遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":2079.79,"end":2081.99,"text":"動號由中央主管定制"},{"start":2082.83,"end":2085.35,"text":"另外是在第6項"},{"start":2086.1,"end":2089.74,"text":"網際網路業者就其業務上或系統中"},{"start":2089.74,"end":2092.42,"text":"存留之前項違法資訊"},{"start":2092.42,"end":2094.02,"text":"遁號網頁資訊"},{"start":2094.02,"end":2097.58,"text":"遁號行為人之用戶註冊資料"},{"start":2097.58,"end":2100.54,"text":"及網路使用紀錄資料"},{"start":2100.54,"end":2105.7,"text":"因此收受前項主管機關通知之日起"},{"start":2105.7,"end":2107.7799999999997,"text":"保存180日"},{"start":2110.7599999999998,"end":2112.6,"text":"那第7項主管機關"},{"start":2112.6,"end":2118,"text":"應調查違法違反第12條或第15條"},{"start":2118,"end":2121.3999999999996,"text":"第一項規定之行為所必要"},{"start":2121.3999999999996,"end":2124.3999999999996,"text":"得序名調查目的及範圍"},{"start":2124.3999999999996,"end":2126.8799999999997,"text":"通知網際網路業者"},{"start":2126.8799999999997,"end":2129.24,"text":"提供前項違法資訊"},{"start":2129.24,"end":2135.04,"text":"遁號網頁資料或行為人之用戶註冊資料"},{"start":2135.04,"end":2139.7599999999998,"text":"分號網際網路業者無正當理由不得拒絕"},{"start":2139.8,"end":2142.36,"text":"主管機關就所取得之資料"},{"start":2142.36,"end":2146.1200000000003,"text":"不得為調查目的外之利用"},{"start":2146.1200000000003,"end":2150.96,"text":"並應記錄其取得利用及銷毀情形"},{"start":2150.96,"end":2152.84,"text":"第8項有其項"},{"start":2152.84,"end":2155.92,"text":"有前項以外之事由而須"},{"start":2155.92,"end":2159.6000000000004,"text":"調取網路使用紀錄資料者"},{"start":2159.6000000000004,"end":2161.44,"text":"其調取及提供"},{"start":2161.44,"end":2164.6800000000003,"text":"因依通訊保障及監察法"},{"start":2164.68,"end":2169.12,"text":"遁號刑事訴訟法或其他法律規定辦理"},{"start":2172.62,"end":2173.54,"text":"朋友們意見"},{"start":2175.14,"end":2176.1,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":2177.42,"end":2179.2999999999997,"text":"第15條之一"},{"start":2179.74,"end":2183.02,"text":"依行政院提案委員林瑞琴等三人所提"},{"start":2183.02,"end":2186.2599999999998,"text":"修正動議及委員王振旭等三人所提"},{"start":2186.2599999999998,"end":2188.7,"text":"修正動議修正通過"},{"start":2189.63,"end":2190.4300000000003,"text":"接下來"},{"start":2194.56,"end":2196.16,"text":"針對15條之二"},{"start":2196.98,"end":2199.94,"text":"第15條之二是針對網際網路"},{"start":2199.94,"end":2204.18,"text":"接取服務提供者的一個相關規範的法條"},{"start":2204.18,"end":2206.62,"text":"那這一條也遵照委員的提案"},{"start":2206.62,"end":2208.1,"text":"在第二"},{"start":2208.92,"end":2210.32,"text":"第三項的部分"},{"start":2210.32,"end":2213.6400000000003,"text":"就行為人的用戶註冊資料"},{"start":2213.6400000000003,"end":2216.04,"text":"還有後續相關通知"},{"start":2216.04,"end":2218.96,"text":"提供該違法資訊網頁資訊"},{"start":2218.96,"end":2221.76,"text":"或行為人之用戶註冊資料"},{"start":2221.76,"end":2224.04,"text":"在這裡的文字修正"},{"start":2224.04,"end":2226.56,"text":"然後也在立法說明的部分"},{"start":2226.56,"end":2229.6,"text":"增加對於這個網際網路"},{"start":2229.6,"end":2232.76,"text":"接取服務提供者的樣態的一個說明"},{"start":2233.66,"end":2234.8199999999997,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":2234.8199999999997,"end":2236.8199999999997,"text":"因為一樣也事實上是講個資"},{"start":2236.8199999999997,"end":2240.2999999999997,"text":"後來一樣就是按照你的修正程"},{"start":2240.2999999999997,"end":2242.62,"text":"用戶註冊資料"},{"start":2242.62,"end":2243.58,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2243.58,"end":2247.1,"text":"我想這個15條跟15之一的修正內涵"},{"start":2247.1,"end":2248.3799999999997,"text":"意見是一致的"},{"start":2248.3799999999997,"end":2251.06,"text":"所以如果同意的話就非常感謝"},{"start":2251.06,"end":2251.8199999999997,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2251.8199999999997,"end":2253.5,"text":"那其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2254.71,"end":2255.75,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":2255.75,"end":2258.55,"text":"第15條之二"},{"start":2258.55,"end":2262.4300000000003,"text":"一行政院提案及委員王振旭等三人所提"},{"start":2262.4300000000003,"end":2264.91,"text":"修正動議修正通過"},{"start":2264.91,"end":2265.91,"text":"接下來"},{"start":2267.74,"end":2268.7799999999997,"text":"25條之一"},{"start":2273.4700000000003,"end":2276.27,"text":"第25條之一是針對"},{"start":2276.27,"end":2280.11,"text":"製造輸入類煙品或其組合和原件"},{"start":2280.11,"end":2282.71,"text":"所訂的相關的一個法則"},{"start":2282.71,"end":2286.71,"text":"那這個部分我們也尊重委員的提案"},{"start":2286.71,"end":2292.11,"text":"針對第一行跟第二行的級別的部分"},{"start":2292.11,"end":2295.11,"text":"就是在查獲物品"},{"start":2295.11,"end":2297.4700000000003,"text":"物件數1000件以下"},{"start":2297.4700000000003,"end":2300.59,"text":"且總競重未遇10公斤者"},{"start":2300.63,"end":2305.3500000000004,"text":"從原本的100公斤修正為10公斤者"},{"start":2305.3500000000004,"end":2308.59,"text":"得處3年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2308.59,"end":2309.8700000000003,"text":"那並且也在"},{"start":2312.67,"end":2313.87,"text":"10公斤"},{"start":2313.87,"end":2316.87,"text":"那在立法說明的部分"},{"start":2316.87,"end":2324.07,"text":"也說明相對應就是計算的一個方式"},{"start":2327.5099999999998,"end":2328.5099999999998,"text":"第25條之二"},{"start":2328.5099999999998,"end":2333.43,"text":"一行政院提案及委員王振旭等三人所提"},{"start":2333.43,"end":2334.43,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":2331.0099999999998,"end":2332.0099999999998,"text":"10公斤"},{"start":2332.0099999999998,"end":2333.0099999999998,"text":"10公斤"},{"start":2334.63,"end":2335.63,"text":"對啦"},{"start":2335.63,"end":2338.63,"text":"就是說其實因為你們現在的管理"},{"start":2338.63,"end":2342.63,"text":"就是把吸食的器具跟原料"},{"start":2342.63,"end":2344.63,"text":"煙油的原料都混在一起了"},{"start":2344.63,"end":2347.63,"text":"但這裡面是不是說如果是載具"},{"start":2347.63,"end":2350.63,"text":"那個吸食的器具就是1000件以下"},{"start":2350.63,"end":2354.63,"text":"但如果是那個煙油的原料的話就10公斤"},{"start":2354.63,"end":2355.63,"text":"對10公斤"},{"start":2355.63,"end":2357.63,"text":"就是讓他的門檻越低越好"},{"start":2357.63,"end":2360.63,"text":"如果超過了這個門檻的話"},{"start":2360.63,"end":2362.63,"text":"他就是到刑法第一級去了"},{"start":2362.67,"end":2364.67,"text":"對 那我們的意思是說"},{"start":2364.67,"end":2366.67,"text":"應該是要重演"},{"start":2366.67,"end":2368.67,"text":"因為現在煙跟毒就是"},{"start":2368.67,"end":2369.67,"text":"已經很難區別"},{"start":2369.67,"end":2370.67,"text":"這個新的時代"},{"start":2370.67,"end":2371.67,"text":"煙等於毒"},{"start":2371.67,"end":2374.67,"text":"毒等於煙的比例的機會實在是"},{"start":2375.82,"end":2376.82,"text":"大增了"},{"start":2376.82,"end":2379.82,"text":"所以我們只擔心"},{"start":2380.85,"end":2383.85,"text":"不擔心錯殺"},{"start":2383.85,"end":2385.85,"text":"只擔心漏掉"},{"start":2386.85,"end":2389.85,"text":"我認為這個如果全部都是煙油的原料的話"},{"start":2389.85,"end":2391.85,"text":"10公斤也是很多很多了"},{"start":2395.75,"end":2396.75,"text":"大靈危"},{"start":2396.75,"end":2398.75,"text":"不好意思 我想請教一下"},{"start":2398.75,"end":2399.75,"text":"因為昨天有來我們辦公室"},{"start":2399.75,"end":2400.75,"text":"來跟我們說"},{"start":2400.75,"end":2402.75,"text":"因為之前我們的討論是10公斤"},{"start":2402.75,"end":2404.75,"text":"可是因為說10公斤的話"},{"start":2404.75,"end":2407.75,"text":"他就很難會有這兩級的一個鑑別度"},{"start":2407.75,"end":2409.75,"text":"所以我只是想說"},{"start":2409.75,"end":2411.75,"text":"因為其實這部分我們重要"},{"start":2411.75,"end":2412.75,"text":"我們的目標"},{"start":2412.75,"end":2414.75,"text":"站在我跟淑芬委員或戰續委員"},{"start":2414.75,"end":2415.75,"text":"或熱情委員的目標"},{"start":2415.75,"end":2416.75,"text":"應該都是希望說"},{"start":2416.75,"end":2419.75,"text":"如何的去避免我們的孩子"},{"start":2419.75,"end":2420.75,"text":"去吸食到這些東西"},{"start":2420.75,"end":2423.75,"text":"那到底幾公斤合理"},{"start":2423.75,"end":2424.75,"text":"那這個坦白說"},{"start":2424.79,"end":2426.79,"text":"可能是要行政機關來告訴我們"},{"start":2426.79,"end":2427.79,"text":"到底是"},{"start":2427.79,"end":2428.79,"text":"因為昨天跟我考量"},{"start":2428.79,"end":2429.79,"text":"說有這個鑑別度的問題"},{"start":2429.79,"end":2431.79,"text":"那是不是可以再跟我們多說明一點"},{"start":2431.79,"end":2433.79,"text":"因為我們其實目標就是希望孩子不要吸到"},{"start":2433.79,"end":2434.79,"text":"也就這樣子"},{"start":2436.11,"end":2437.11,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":2437.11,"end":2439.11,"text":"其實我們的這個設計上"},{"start":2439.11,"end":2442.11,"text":"因為有製造輸入跟販賣供應"},{"start":2442.11,"end":2443.11,"text":"那一開始的設計"},{"start":2443.11,"end":2445.11,"text":"會希望這兩個情節"},{"start":2445.11,"end":2446.11,"text":"是以製造輸入比較嚴重"},{"start":2446.11,"end":2448.11,"text":"販賣供應比較不嚴重"},{"start":2448.11,"end":2450.11,"text":"那在販賣供應的部分"},{"start":2450.11,"end":2452.11,"text":"其實當初的設計是"},{"start":2452.11,"end":2454.11,"text":"100件10公斤以下"},{"start":2454.11,"end":2456.11,"text":"那所以在"},{"start":2456.11,"end":2459.11,"text":"製造輸入的部分就是1000件100公斤"},{"start":2459.11,"end":2461.11,"text":"所以只是當初的設計"},{"start":2461.11,"end":2463.11,"text":"有一個比例上的一個原則"},{"start":2463.11,"end":2465.11,"text":"那但是因為在跟委員溝通的時候"},{"start":2465.15,"end":2466.15,"text":"我們也瞭解"},{"start":2466.15,"end":2468.15,"text":"就是這個製造輸入"},{"start":2468.15,"end":2471.15,"text":"它可能是一個原物料進來"},{"start":2471.15,"end":2474.15,"text":"那販賣供應可能都是已經是成品了"},{"start":2474.15,"end":2476.15,"text":"那如果考量原物料的時候"},{"start":2476.15,"end":2478.15,"text":"確實10公斤的菸油"},{"start":2478.15,"end":2481.15,"text":"它可以製造出4000個"},{"start":2481.15,"end":2483.15,"text":"兩cc的菸氮"},{"start":2483.15,"end":2486.15,"text":"所以這個總件數其實也反映1000件以上"},{"start":2486.15,"end":2488.15,"text":"所以基於這樣子的考量"},{"start":2488.15,"end":2491.15,"text":"我們認為其實確實可以修正到10公斤"},{"start":2491.15,"end":2492.15,"text":"因為"},{"start":2492.15,"end":2493.15,"text":"如果換算成菸油"},{"start":2493.19,"end":2494.19,"text":"如果換算成菸油"},{"start":2494.19,"end":2495.19,"text":"它件數也超過"},{"start":2495.19,"end":2499.19,"text":"那以菸油這樣的樣態危害更大的時候"},{"start":2499.19,"end":2501.19,"text":"確實過了這個量"},{"start":2501.19,"end":2503.19,"text":"就是它有這樣子程度的一個危害"},{"start":2503.19,"end":2505.19,"text":"那只是我們的考量會在"},{"start":2505.19,"end":2507.19,"text":"不同的行為樣態的時候"},{"start":2507.19,"end":2510.19,"text":"這個比例上可能會有一點點"},{"start":2510.19,"end":2512.19,"text":"比例不是那麼的均衡"},{"start":2512.19,"end":2515.19,"text":"但是我們認為修正成10公斤"},{"start":2515.19,"end":2516.19,"text":"應該也是可行的"},{"start":2520.99,"end":2523.0299999999997,"text":"有沒有其他意見"},{"start":2524.13,"end":2525.17,"text":"沒有的"},{"start":2525.31,"end":2526.35,"text":"好"},{"start":2526.71,"end":2528.71,"text":"我們25條之一"},{"start":2528.71,"end":2530.71,"text":"一行政院提案"},{"start":2530.71,"end":2533.71,"text":"委員王振旭等三人所提修正"},{"start":2533.71,"end":2535.71,"text":"動議修正通過"},{"start":2536.47,"end":2537.47,"text":"接下來"},{"start":2537.47,"end":2540.47,"text":"我們續審25條之二"},{"start":2540.94,"end":2542.94,"text":"第25條之二"},{"start":2542.94,"end":2545.94,"text":"是針對境外旅客自用"},{"start":2545.94,"end":2548.94,"text":"自己攜帶的這個類菸品的一個"},{"start":2548.94,"end":2549.94,"text":"排除的"},{"start":2549.94,"end":2551.94,"text":"就是第一次"},{"start":2552.57,"end":2553.57,"text":"採刑事法"},{"start":2553.57,"end":2554.57,"text":"然後擂犯"},{"start":2554.57,"end":2556.57,"text":"然後採刑罰的"},{"start":2556.57,"end":2557.57,"text":"那當初其實是有委員"},{"start":2557.57,"end":2559.57,"text":"針對一年的部分"},{"start":2559.57,"end":2561.57,"text":"其實是有意見"},{"start":2561.57,"end":2563.57,"text":"那這邊主管監管考量了之後"},{"start":2563.57,"end":2566.57,"text":"修正為五年內再犯"},{"start":2566.57,"end":2567.57,"text":"那這樣子的一個判斷"},{"start":2567.57,"end":2571.57,"text":"主要是兼顧擂犯的一個情況之下去"},{"start":2571.57,"end":2572.57,"text":"做設計的"},{"start":2575.77,"end":2576.77,"text":"意見"},{"start":2576.77,"end":2577.77,"text":"25條之二"},{"start":2583.0099999999998,"end":2584.0099999999998,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":2584.0099999999998,"end":2587.0099999999998,"text":"這一條就一行政院提案修正通過"},{"start":2590.55,"end":2592.59,"text":"接下來35條之一"},{"start":2593.56,"end":2594.56,"text":"30條"},{"start":2596.56,"end":2598.56,"text":"30條"},{"start":2599.63,"end":2600.63,"text":"30條的部分"},{"start":2600.63,"end":2603.63,"text":"主要是根據第15條之一"},{"start":2603.63,"end":2607.63,"text":"就是前面關於網際網路業者管理的部分"},{"start":2607.63,"end":2610.63,"text":"那作為一些文字上修正"},{"start":2610.63,"end":2612.63,"text":"那這邊我念一下"},{"start":2612.63,"end":2614.63,"text":"但網際網路業者"},{"start":2614.63,"end":2617.63,"text":"以依第15條之一第四項"},{"start":2617.63,"end":2618.63,"text":"所訂辦法"},{"start":2618.63,"end":2620.63,"text":"盡管理義務"},{"start":2620.63,"end":2622.63,"text":"並實施管理作為者"},{"start":2622.63,"end":2624.63,"text":"都好不予處罰"},{"start":2624.63,"end":2626.63,"text":"所以這是跟著15條之一"},{"start":2626.63,"end":2628.63,"text":"做的文字修正"},{"start":2629.73,"end":2630.77,"text":"我願意有嗎意見"},{"start":2634.12,"end":2635.16,"text":"不能亂跑"},{"start":2638.07,"end":2639.11,"text":"我們非常需要你"},{"start":2639.7799999999997,"end":2640.7799999999997,"text":"那有沒有意見"},{"start":2640.7799999999997,"end":2641.7799999999997,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":2641.7799999999997,"end":2645.7799999999997,"text":"第30條就一行政院提案修正通過"},{"start":2645.7799999999997,"end":2647.7799999999997,"text":"現在續審35條之一"},{"start":2649.14,"end":2650.14,"text":"35條之一"},{"start":2650.14,"end":2653.14,"text":"也是因為之前第15條之一"},{"start":2653.14,"end":2656.14,"text":"有一些文字上的修正"},{"start":2656.14,"end":2660.14,"text":"並且增加那一條裡面的第7項規定"},{"start":2660.14,"end":2662.14,"text":"所以在這裡的部分"},{"start":2662.14,"end":2664.14,"text":"我念一下下面的文字修正"},{"start":2664.14,"end":2667.14,"text":"在第二款的網際網路業者"},{"start":2667.14,"end":2671.14,"text":"違反第15條之一第6項規定"},{"start":2671.14,"end":2674.14,"text":"未依現保存資訊資料"},{"start":2674.14,"end":2677.14,"text":"或違反同條第7項規定"},{"start":2677.18,"end":2679.18,"text":"未依主管機關通知"},{"start":2679.18,"end":2681.18,"text":"提供資訊資料"},{"start":2684.12,"end":2685.16,"text":"我有沒意見"},{"start":2686.94,"end":2687.94,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":2687.94,"end":2688.94,"text":"35條之一"},{"start":2688.94,"end":2693.94,"text":"一行政院提案及委員王振旭等三人所提修正動議通過"},{"start":2698.35,"end":2699.35,"text":"那一條"},{"start":2699.35,"end":2700.35,"text":"44條"},{"start":2700.35,"end":2701.35,"text":"那接下來44條"},{"start":2702.48,"end":2703.48,"text":"44條"},{"start":2703.48,"end":2706.48,"text":"這個是遵照委員建議的版本"},{"start":2706.48,"end":2708.48,"text":"在原本的文字後面增加"},{"start":2708.48,"end":2710.48,"text":"依本法應受處罰者"},{"start":2710.48,"end":2712.48,"text":"除依本法處罰外"},{"start":2712.48,"end":2714.48,"text":"其有犯罪嫌疑者"},{"start":2714.48,"end":2717.48,"text":"應移送司法機關處理"},{"start":2720.62,"end":2721.66,"text":"我也有沒有意見"},{"start":2723.99,"end":2725.0299999999997,"text":"沒有"},{"start":2725.62,"end":2726.62,"text":"44條"},{"start":2726.62,"end":2731.62,"text":"一行政院提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正通過"},{"start":2731.62,"end":2732.62,"text":"接下來續審"},{"start":2732.62,"end":2733.62,"text":"事實"},{"start":2734.86,"end":2735.9,"text":"這7"},{"start":2737.36,"end":2738.36,"text":"第47條"},{"start":2738.36,"end":2741.36,"text":"那因為這一次有修正第9條"},{"start":2741.36,"end":2742.36,"text":"第二項"},{"start":2742.36,"end":2746.36,"text":"調高菸品容器警示圖文的面積到85%"},{"start":2746.36,"end":2749.36,"text":"那因為這個考量業者需要辦理"},{"start":2749.36,"end":2751.36,"text":"包裝版面的調整"},{"start":2751.36,"end":2754.36,"text":"那會需要一個緩衝的一個時間"},{"start":2754.36,"end":2756.36,"text":"所以增加文字如下"},{"start":2756.36,"end":2759.36,"text":"本法修正條文除"},{"start":2759.36,"end":2761.36,"text":"中華民國幾年"},{"start":2761.36,"end":2764.36,"text":"某年某月某日修正公佈之第二條"},{"start":2764.36,"end":2765.36,"text":"第二項"},{"start":2765.4,"end":2766.4,"text":"而第9條"},{"start":2766.4,"end":2767.4,"text":"第二項"},{"start":2767.4,"end":2769.4,"text":"自公佈後一年時之外"},{"start":2769.4,"end":2772.4,"text":"自公佈日施行"},{"start":2774.1,"end":2775.14,"text":"我又沒意見"},{"start":2776.65,"end":2777.65,"text":"沒有"},{"start":2777.65,"end":2779.65,"text":"因為有一年的緩衝期是適當的"},{"start":2779.65,"end":2780.65,"text":"同意"},{"start":2780.65,"end":2782.65,"text":"那第47條"},{"start":2782.65,"end":2785.65,"text":"一行政院提案修正通過"},{"start":2787.51,"end":2789.55,"text":"接下來我們針對於"},{"start":2793.21,"end":2795.25,"text":"不用附帶菌"},{"start":2797.02,"end":2798.02,"text":"對對對"},{"start":2798.02,"end":2800.02,"text":"先保留案"},{"start":2800.02,"end":2803.02,"text":"來我們先針對附帶菌"},{"start":2803.02,"end":2807.02,"text":"附帶菌有兩個保留案跟兩個新提案"},{"start":2807.02,"end":2809.02,"text":"兩個新提案部分要先請"},{"start":2815.71,"end":2819.75,"text":"新的兩案請秘書先行宣讀"},{"start":2822.2,"end":2825.2,"text":"第一案請主管機關於訂定相關執法時"},{"start":2825.2,"end":2828.2,"text":"盤點各類平台之營運特性及管理能力"},{"start":2828.2,"end":2831.2,"text":"依平台規模服務形態及風險程度"},{"start":2831.2,"end":2835.2,"text":"訂定合理且具差異化之管理義務"},{"start":2835.2,"end":2836.2,"text":"及認定標準"},{"start":2836.2,"end":2839.2,"text":"並於執法發佈前提出評估報告"},{"start":2839.2,"end":2842.2,"text":"以兼顧防治違法資訊平台責任"},{"start":2842.2,"end":2844.2,"text":"及產業發展"},{"start":2844.2,"end":2847.2,"text":"提案委員林月請連署委員王振旭"},{"start":2847.2,"end":2848.2,"text":"林淑芬"},{"start":2848.2,"end":2850.2,"text":"附帶決議新增2"},{"start":2850.65,"end":2853.65,"text":"考量煙品添加風味後容易誘導"},{"start":2853.65,"end":2856.65,"text":"青少年及女性接觸與成癮"},{"start":2856.65,"end":2858.65,"text":"《煙害防治法》第十條規定"},{"start":2858.65,"end":2859.65,"text":"明訂煙品不得使用"},{"start":2859.65,"end":2862.65,"text":"中央主管機關公告禁止使用至添加物"},{"start":2862.65,"end":2864.65,"text":"然而 112年"},{"start":2865.58,"end":2868.58,"text":"施行迄今兩次預告"},{"start":2868.58,"end":2870.58,"text":"人未完成公告程序"},{"start":2870.58,"end":2873.58,"text":"請衛生福利部緊述公告煙品禁止使用"},{"start":2873.58,"end":2874.58,"text":"特徵風味添加物"},{"start":2874.58,"end":2876.58,"text":"以保障國人健康"},{"start":2876.58,"end":2877.58,"text":"提案委員王振旭"},{"start":2877.58,"end":2878.58,"text":"林淑芬"},{"start":2878.58,"end":2879.58,"text":"林月請宣讀完畢"},{"start":2879.58,"end":2881.58,"text":"好 先處理我們保留"},{"start":2881.58,"end":2883.58,"text":"附帶決議的第一案"},{"start":2883.58,"end":2885.58,"text":"請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":2885.58,"end":2887.58,"text":"是 主管機關"},{"start":2888.47,"end":2890.5099999999998,"text":"原來保留的 上次保留的"},{"start":2901.97,"end":2908.0099999999998,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":2903.63,"end":2905.67,"text":"反正是許委員的題目"},{"start":2917.22,"end":2918.22,"text":"都沒有啊"},{"start":2918.22,"end":2919.22,"text":"找到了嗎"},{"start":2931.03,"end":2932.07,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2940.39,"end":2942.39,"text":"這個剛才不是有新的決議"},{"start":2942.39,"end":2943.39,"text":"跟這個類似了"},{"start":2944.5,"end":2946.54,"text":"那這個還要再處理嗎"},{"start":2951.04,"end":2953.04,"text":"因為他這個就牽扯到法律上的"},{"start":2953.04,"end":2956.04,"text":"比較 比較細節上的"},{"start":2956.04,"end":2958.04,"text":"的字眼了"},{"start":2963.56,"end":2965.56,"text":"剛才你們不是提了 類似的"},{"start":2965.56,"end":2968.56,"text":"對 這個已經在十五條之一的時候"},{"start":2968.56,"end":2970.56,"text":"做文字的一個修正了"},{"start":2970.56,"end":2971.56,"text":"所以這個不用了"},{"start":2971.56,"end":2972.56,"text":"對啦"},{"start":2972.56,"end":2973.56,"text":"好"},{"start":2973.56,"end":2975.56,"text":"那這一案就不處理了"},{"start":2975.56,"end":2976.56,"text":"好 拿到第二個人"},{"start":2976.56,"end":2977.56,"text":"拿來"},{"start":2978.79,"end":2980.83,"text":"再來下一案"},{"start":2982.81,"end":2983.81,"text":"上次保留的"},{"start":2983.81,"end":2984.81,"text":"第二"},{"start":2987.8,"end":2990.84,"text":"就是通知限制瀏覽移除"},{"start":2991.09,"end":2992.13,"text":"限制截取"},{"start":2993.68,"end":2995.68,"text":"這個主管機關准照辦理"},{"start":2995.68,"end":2996.68,"text":"好"},{"start":2996.68,"end":2997.68,"text":"那就"},{"start":2997.68,"end":2998.68,"text":"照案通過"},{"start":2999.6,"end":3001.6,"text":"接下來今天的新的兩案"},{"start":3001.6,"end":3002.6,"text":"好 第一案"},{"start":3005.57,"end":3006.61,"text":"這個"},{"start":3012.98,"end":3013.98,"text":"好 有沒有意見"},{"start":3013.98,"end":3014.98,"text":"沒有 准照辦理"},{"start":3014.98,"end":3016.98,"text":"好 那就照案通過"},{"start":3016.98,"end":3019.98,"text":"第二案 王靖維提的"},{"start":3020.55,"end":3021.59,"text":"就是家衛"},{"start":3023.08,"end":3024.08,"text":"風味添加物的部分"},{"start":3024.08,"end":3025.08,"text":"我們准照辦理"},{"start":3025.08,"end":3026.08,"text":"好 那就照案通過"},{"start":3027.14,"end":3028.18,"text":"謝謝衛邊"},{"start":3030.36,"end":3033.4,"text":"立法說明受全行政機關處理"},{"start":3034.23,"end":3036.23,"text":"本法案相關調次條文中"},{"start":3036.23,"end":3040.23,"text":"原引條相次及法制用語調整"},{"start":3040.23,"end":3042.23,"text":"授權醫事人員調整"},{"start":3042.23,"end":3045.23,"text":"那休息一下"},{"start":3045.23,"end":3047.23,"text":"就等一下他們協商結論還在打"},{"start":3047.23,"end":3048.23,"text":"好"},{"start":3050.05,"end":3051.09,"text":"等我一下"},{"start":3052.84,"end":3054.84,"text":"現在宣告以上協商結果"},{"start":3054.84,"end":3057.84,"text":"協商通過條文"},{"start":3063.81,"end":3065.81,"text":"15之1 15之2"},{"start":3065.81,"end":3066.81,"text":"15之1 15之2"},{"start":3066.81,"end":3067.81,"text":"15之2"},{"start":3067.81,"end":3070.81,"text":"學生通過條文就是這個"},{"start":3070.81,"end":3073.81,"text":"15之1 15之2"},{"start":3075.24,"end":3077.24,"text":"15之1 15之2"},{"start":3077.24,"end":3080.24,"text":"30跟35之1"},{"start":3081.57,"end":3084.61,"text":"44跟47"},{"start":3086.69,"end":3089.73,"text":"保留第7條跟第10條"},{"start":3090.73,"end":3092.73,"text":"區域軍造審查會"},{"start":3092.73,"end":3093.73,"text":"審查結果通過"},{"start":3095.09,"end":3096.13,"text":"請大家有沒有意見"},{"start":3096.97,"end":3099.97,"text":"沒有的話我們等下請黨團簽名"},{"start":3099.97,"end":3100.97,"text":"新增附帶決議"},{"start":3100.97,"end":3103.97,"text":"新增通過附帶決議三案"},{"start":3103.97,"end":3104.97,"text":"如附件"},{"start":3107.97,"end":3109.0099999999998,"text":"我們等下給你"},{"start":3289.33,"end":3290.33,"text":"那你這邊"},{"start":3290.33,"end":3292.33,"text":"宣告協商結論"},{"start":3292.33,"end":3293.33,"text":"要講時間嗎"},{"start":3293.33,"end":3294.33,"text":"不是都不用"},{"start":3294.33,"end":3295.33,"text":"只要這裡就好"},{"start":3295.33,"end":3296.33,"text":"這裡就好"},{"start":3296.33,"end":3297.33,"text":"好協商結論"},{"start":3297.33,"end":3299.33,"text":"一協商通過條文"},{"start":3299.33,"end":3302.33,"text":"增訂第15條之1"},{"start":3302.33,"end":3304.33,"text":"第15條之2"},{"start":3304.33,"end":3305.33,"text":"第25條之1"},{"start":3305.33,"end":3306.33,"text":"25條之2"},{"start":3306.33,"end":3308.33,"text":"第30條"},{"start":3308.33,"end":3309.33,"text":"第35條之1"},{"start":3309.33,"end":3310.33,"text":"第44條"},{"start":3310.33,"end":3312.33,"text":"第47條"},{"start":3312.33,"end":3313.33,"text":"如附件1"},{"start":3313.33,"end":3314.33,"text":"二保留"},{"start":3314.33,"end":3315.33,"text":"送院會處理"},{"start":3315.33,"end":3316.33,"text":"第7條"},{"start":3316.33,"end":3317.33,"text":"第10條條文"},{"start":3317.37,"end":3320.37,"text":"三審查會保留附帶決議"},{"start":3320.37,"end":3321.37,"text":"第一案不予處理"},{"start":3321.37,"end":3324.37,"text":"四審查會保留附帶決議"},{"start":3324.37,"end":3325.37,"text":"第二案通過"},{"start":3325.37,"end":3326.37,"text":"如附件2"},{"start":3327.92,"end":3329.92,"text":"五新增附帶決議"},{"start":3329.92,"end":3330.92,"text":"兩項"},{"start":3330.92,"end":3331.92,"text":"如附件3"},{"start":3332.31,"end":3334.31,"text":"六期餘軍照審查會"},{"start":3334.31,"end":3336.31,"text":"審查結果通過"},{"start":3336.31,"end":3337.31,"text":"七"},{"start":3337.47,"end":3339.47,"text":"簡復修政治立法說明"},{"start":3339.47,"end":3340.47,"text":"如附件4"},{"start":3341.53,"end":3342.57,"text":"請問大家有沒有意見"},{"start":3343.73,"end":3344.73,"text":"沒有"},{"start":3344.73,"end":3345.73,"text":"散會"},{"start":3356.57,"end":3357.61,"text":"別瞪著"},{"start":3359.73,"end":3360.77,"text":"散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:43:29.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:43:31.848182+08:00","text":"我們現在協商會議開始。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:43:32.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:43:34.594444+08:00","text":"現在協商菸害防制法。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:46:22.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:46:29.005000+08:00","text":"今日保留條文計有 10 條，希望儘量協商通過，請各位委員綜合考量，\n衛福部也隨時溝通。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:46:29.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:46:39.709091+08:00","text":"今天進行方式是請衛福部先說明，再請各位委員表示意見，最後會中協商\n結論，請各黨團簽名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:46:41.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:46:46.158571+08:00","text":"現在進行第七條的討論，先請衛福部說明。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:46:49.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:47:10.540000+08:00","text":"報告召委跟委員，第七條的部分，主要是指定菸品的部分需不需要經過健康風險評估\n才可以供外銷，這一條的部分我們尊重委員會的審查意見。有。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:47:22.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:48:35.772000+08:00","text":"我想在這裡再講一遍，本人表示反對，第一個，包括全世界的衛生組織、包括臺灣的\n國家政策，我們都希望菸草產業的整個市場是要縮小的，這是我們努力的目標，雖然是一個理\n344\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄\n想的狀況，但是我們沒有理由支持讓菸草產業擴大，這是第一個；第二個，我也再講一遍，國\n內並沒有所謂的菸農，也就是沒有菸草的農業、也沒有多大的就業機會問題，所以沒有產業上\n的衝擊，沒有相關產業農業、沒有勞工就業機會上的衝擊，所以我們對這個一點包袱都沒有，\n再加上第一個目標，所以我們沒有理由支持開放；第三個，這是最核心的，雖然出口跟國內使\n用是分流規劃，但是輸出會不會流到國內市場，這是徒增風險，本來是百分之一百零風險，我\n們為什麼要開放，然後再增加回流的風險？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:48:36.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:48:37.391429+08:00","text":"一點道理都沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:48:37.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:49:01.528571+08:00","text":"最後我要講，基本上讓產業萎縮，把它管制得越嚴格，然後要通過健康風險的評估及審查，\n這個是基本，你如果有本事通過健康風險的評估及審查，我也沒有話說了，因為這是目前的遊\n戲規則，但是你不要改掉遊戲規則，然後開放分流，分流還是會回流啦！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:49:01.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:49:07.460000+08:00","text":"所以在這裡，本人堅\n決主張第七條跟第十條都不予修正，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:49:09.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:49:17.014444+08:00","text":"麻煩現場，委員在講話的時候音量要下降，剛剛林淑芬委員在講的時候，可能很多人沒辦法\n聽到。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:49:17.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:49:19.535000+08:00","text":"接下來有哪一位委員要發言？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:49:21.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:49:22.400000+08:00","text":"請陳超明委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員超明","start":"2026-07-30T14:49:24.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:50:43.725714+08:00","text":"首先，我跟林委員的意見、觀點是不同的，目前第七條的修正案是關於加熱菸，我也\n請每一位委員及在場官員了解，在加熱菸的部分，全世界只有美國跟臺灣有健康風險評估，包\n括日本在國內銷售也沒有健康風險評估，因為加熱菸是從一般菸再發展出來的，在這裡我主張\n要給我們臺灣的菸廠一個國際競爭的機會，只要符合輸入國的規範就可以了，沒有那麼清高，\n世界都在競爭，這是對於第七條我所堅持的觀點，應該要給產業有機會；至於臺灣有沒有生產\n菸草，日本也沒有生產菸草、美國也沒有生產菸草，幾乎都在國外、在落後的地方生產，這跟\n氣候有關係。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"陳委員超明","start":"2026-07-30T14:50:43.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:51:32.340000+08:00","text":"至於就業的機會，包括這些菸廠加起來大概有超過 2,000 人的就業機會，我們很多方面都是從\n菸的方面來保障國人安全，有時候大家說抽菸不好，我也覺得不怎麼好，但是有人勇於犧牲自\n己來照拂其他人，也是一種方式，不然世界上沒有國家像臺灣限制得那麼嚴格，這是我個人的\n觀點，我也希望衛福部能從經濟產業發展的角度來支持這個法案，讓產業有生成的機會，謝謝\n。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:51:36.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:51:41.412500+08:00","text":"先請衛福部回應兩位委員不同的意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:51:52.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:51:52.400000+08:00","text":"請蘇清泉委員。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:51:55.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:52:21.780000+08:00","text":"我上次也有提到，我們臺灣的原料藥藥品，事實上也有很多是臺灣沒有在使用的，有\n的銷到美國、有的銷到其他國家，都要照輸入國家的要求，基本上衛福部是不會去管這個部分\n，也是樂觀其成啦。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:52:23.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:52:51.010000+08:00","text":"抽菸是壞事，以臨床醫師來看抽菸是不好的，大家都不要抽菸，但是幾千\n年來好像也沒辦法消滅掉，既然這是一個商業行為，他們要求菸草出口或是紙菸出口或是怎麼\n樣，只要我們能符合要輸出的國家的嚴格規定，這樣就可以了，這是第一個。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:52:51.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:53:12.810000+08:00","text":"第二個，你說怕出口出去又會回流回來，那又是另外一件事情、另外一個 issue，變成又回流\n回來就是管理有問題，那是財政部、衛福部的邊境管理問題，你不能因為怕將來會回流到臺灣\n，這個有點講話邏輯不通啦。","quality":0.67},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:53:13.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:53:35.400000+08:00","text":"345\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄\n所以這兩條，第七條及第十條，如果業者有生存的需求，別的國家也很嚴格地要求，我們主\n管單位應該也不會禁止啦，所以我們還是希望能夠讓他們出口。以上。","quality":0.734},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-30T14:53:41.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:53:42.372000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-30T14:53:42.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:54:11.268000+08:00","text":"我也是支持陳超明委員的看法，我覺得這個產業本身造就了很多的工作機\n會，也養活了很多家庭，今天的爭點是，我們不在國內販賣，他只是出口，就可以造就我們國\n人的工作機會，我想這是非常好的一點。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-30T14:54:11.603333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:54:50.770588+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛也有講到，如果再回流、走私進來的話，\n這個部分本來海關就已經在做防堵，我覺得我們應該相信我們自己的海關有能力去阻止這個事\n情，不可能因為我們有出口這個菸，所以海關就不再做嚴格的審查與把關，因此這個部分我想\n應該是不會發生的事情，因為這本來就是應該要做的事情，不會造成我們基層公務人員的負擔\n。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-30T14:54:50.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:54:52.500000+08:00","text":"以上是我的看法，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:54:55.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:55:29.350000+08:00","text":"抱歉，蘇委員，我沒有辦法接受你說我邏輯不通，上回我提出這樣的觀點，但我回答\n的時候，你已經離開了，所以你沒有聽我講過，我再講一遍，你講的原料藥在國內沒有許可，\n但還是可以製造、輸出，藥是救命的啦，菸草是殺人命的，菸草是被 IARC 列為第一級的致癌物\n，菸草是第一級的致癌物啦！","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:55:30.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:55:37.013333+08:00","text":"菸草是害命的，藥是救命的，你不能把兩個拿來類比啦，這是第\n一個。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:55:37.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:55:49.954286+08:00","text":"第二個，不要言必稱產業、言必稱就業機會，臺灣目前根本就沒有這麼大的菸草產業，也沒\n有這種就業需求，而我們沒有必要壯大這種產業。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:55:50.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:56:21.617143+08:00","text":"第三個，你們講說這個是要外銷的，回流的部分是管理面的問題，是執行法律的人要去管理\n的，這個邏輯不通，你說我邏輯不通，我認為你們才不通，你上游開放了，再叫下游海關去抓\n、再叫下游警察去抓，你一直不斷地開放上游，然後下游再去抓，永遠都抓不完啊，那為什麼\n不直接把門關起來就好了，通通都不用抓呢？","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:56:21.617143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T14:56:23.520000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:56:23.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:56:29.760000+08:00","text":"而且我們的終極目標就是要消滅這個產\n業，你們為什麼言必稱發展產業呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:56:30.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:56:35.807333+08:00","text":"我們怎麼會是發展香菸、菸草產業呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:56:36.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:56:45.238571+08:00","text":"我們是要以讓產業\n萎縮、消滅這個產業為目標，結果你們都言必稱產業發展，我就聽不下去了。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:56:45.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:56:56.074615+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這個東西就算再多講，講一遍、兩遍、三遍，他們都還是講一樣的，我也是都講\n一樣的，所以主席，這一條我認為是沒有辦法達成共識。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"陳委員超明","start":"2026-07-30T14:56:57.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:57:25.449091+08:00","text":"我想觀點不同，沒有辦法達成共識，但是也請林委員曉得，所有菸草都是最先進的國\n家當老闆，我只是提醒說這個世界就長成這樣，別人能做，臺灣不能做，我覺得不合理，那觀\n點不同，我是建議主席，我們送到院會協商，講得再久也是這幾個觀點而已。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員超明","start":"2026-07-30T14:57:26.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:57:49.476154+08:00","text":"為什麼比我們臺\n灣還先進的國家，譬如美國、日本、歐洲，你去看那些菸廠的老闆都是這幾個國家，我只是說\n觀點不一樣，今天怎麼討論一定討論不完的，那我想建議主席送到院會協商。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T14:57:56.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:00.196667+08:00","text":"那就第七條、第十條都一併保留。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:00.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:01.894000+08:00","text":"一併保留，其他委員有沒有意見？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:02.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:07.194000+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第七條跟第十條我們就保留。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:12.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:14.596000+08:00","text":"接下來是第十五條之一。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:14.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:16.865857+08:00","text":"346\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:16.865857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:19.135714+08:00","text":"第九條呢？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:19.135714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:19.958571+08:00","text":"第九條呢？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:23.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:31.316667+08:00","text":"第九條已經通過了，上次第九條已經修正通過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:31.964286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:58:40.520000+08:00","text":"報告主席，第九條的部分，我剛剛有跟王正旭委員溝通他的修正動議提案。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:58:44.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:59:20.257273+08:00","text":"這是一包\n加熱菸，大家沒抽菸的可能不知道，我們臺灣現在的就長這個樣子，就是 50%的警語圖檔，現\n在直接要弄到 85%，我跟大家報告，我們臺灣進口的菸都是從世界大國來的，從瑞士、美國、\n日本等等的菸商進來的，你們一直在說不要發展菸草產業，結果外國做得比我們多，也比我們\n強勢，連美僑協會什麼的都在關心。","quality":0.709},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:59:21.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T14:59:48.738571+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟王正旭委員溝通，他說 50%的警語他沒辦法接受，如果用到 85%，等於整個都是警\n語、都是圖檔，澳洲有 data，他們的菸用到 80%的警語圖檔，結果他們的菸大部分都是走私菸，\n10 包有 8 包、7 包都是走私菸，走私的情況很嚴重。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T14:59:48.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:01.665000+08:00","text":"所以我的建議是修改，王正旭也有同意，\n不然我們就提高到 60%，它上次是用 85%，針對第九條我的建議是這樣。","quality":0.651},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:02.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:03.740000+08:00","text":"不是，我們都沒有答應，這條通過了喔！","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:04.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:08.340000+08:00","text":"不是，這條已經通過了，哪有人通過，然後我們又再……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:09.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:09.916000+08:00","text":"我們也反對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:11.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:14.606667+08:00","text":"修正動議再修正這樣而已，如果要再修正，我們就再修正。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:15.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:24.258889+08:00","text":"沒有，程序就不符合，上次協商就通過了……上次是審查。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:40.281429+08:00","text":"上次通過的委員現在不在場，我們也不能去否定掉上次通過的委員意見，而且上次已經通過\n了，你又要再重新，等於每一條都要再重新來過嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:40.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:00:41.950000+08:00","text":"請林淑芬委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:00:42.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:01:29.170000+08:00","text":"我覺得今天很遺憾聽到這個要「倒退嚕」的修正，老實說，現在販賣加熱菸的形象就\n是優雅、漂亮，看起來不低級，抽菸好像很優雅，可是大家都知道這個是包裝行銷手法，而且\n嚴重地殘害健康，這樣的假優雅會讓青少年開始想要抽，所以讓整個菸的包裝有 85%的警示圖\n示，讓他們看得清清楚楚，他會得到肺癌、他會器官爛成這個樣子，看了就覺得噁心，噁心就\n不想抽、不想買，這樣子很好啊！","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:01:29.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:01:32.524545+08:00","text":"為什麼要把 85%再下調到 60%？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:01:32.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:01:37.650000+08:00","text":"這只有符合菸商的利益，為\n什麼要這樣子呢？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:01:37.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:01:59.460000+08:00","text":"我們都已經往前邁進，大家在這裡審查的時候朝野有共識，藍、綠、白都有\n共識 85%，結果就你們這幾個要把藍、綠、白的共識再翻案，而且是符合菸商的講法，我們不\n能接受，也不知道為什麼要這樣子「倒退嚕」，沒有道理！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:01:59.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:02:11.640000+08:00","text":"我們絕對不允許那種假優雅吸引我\n們的孩子、戕害青少年的健康，從年輕吸到老，我們反對。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-07-30T15:02:15.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:02:18.010000+08:00","text":"依照委員會程序，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:02:19.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:02:22.162857+08:00","text":"所以王委員不可以隨便答應人家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:02:23.665714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:02:24.951429+08:00","text":"繼續第十五條之一。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:02:30.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:02:44.803333+08:00","text":"第十五條之一是網際網路業者的管理部分，遵照委員討論的意見，把善良管理人的部\n347\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄\n分改為管理義務。","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:02:45.343333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:03:04.070000+08:00","text":"另外也在第四項跟第七項增加了委員建議的一些文字，並且在立法說明增加\n網際網路業者的樣態，所以這部分主管機關已經有做調整了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:03:06.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:03:08.592857+08:00","text":"委員有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:03:09.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:03:15.406667+08:00","text":"因為正旭委員之前針對個資，現在變成用戶註冊資料。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-07-30T15:03:22.393333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:03:24.310000+08:00","text":"我沒意見，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-07-30T15:03:24.987273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:03:42.585714+08:00","text":"的確相較之下，個人資料範圍會非常非常的大，如果修改成這\n樣的話，理論上應該會同樣達到它的需求，可是又不至於讓個人資料無限制地透過這方式去處\n理。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:03:48.926667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:03:54.290000+08:00","text":"是不是請行政單位把剛剛所有文字再唸一遍，讓大家確認？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:04:01.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:04:05.230000+08:00","text":"報告召委，我是不是宣讀有修改過的文字，還是整條都唸？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:04:05.813333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:04:08.183333+08:00","text":"我宣讀有修改過的文字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:04:08.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:05:39.482353+08:00","text":"第十五條之一：「網際網路資料有第十二條或前條第一項所\n定違法情事（以下簡稱違法資訊）之虞，應盡管理義務，實施管理作為」；第四項：「網際網\n路業者第一項管理作為、第二項風險管控機制之適用對象、必要措施、防範機制及其他應遵行\n事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之」；第六項：「網際網路業者就其業務上或系統中留存之前\n項違法資訊、網頁資料、行為人之用戶註冊資料及網路使用紀錄資料，應自收受前項主管機關\n通知之日起保存一百八十日」；第七項：主管機關因調查違反第十二條或第十五條第一項規定\n之行為所必要，得敘明調查目的及範圍，通知網際網路業者提供前項違法資訊、網頁資料或行\n為人之用戶註冊資料；網際網路業者無正當理由，不得拒絕。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:05:39.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:06:08.842500+08:00","text":"主管機關就所取得之資料，不得\n為調查目的外之利用，並應記錄其取得、利用及銷毀情形」；第八項：「有前項以外之事由而\n須調取網路使用紀錄資料者，其調取及提供，應依通訊保障及監察法、刑事訴訟法或其他法律\n規定辦理」。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:06:08.842500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:06:15.140000+08:00","text":"委員有沒有意見？","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:06:15.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:06:28.395000+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第十五條之一依行政院提案、委員林月琴等 3人所提修正動議\n及委員王正旭等 3人所提修正動議修正通過。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:06:29.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:06:35.840000+08:00","text":"接下來第十五條之二，請說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:06:36.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:07:12.549333+08:00","text":"第十五條之二是針對網際網路接取服務提供者的規範法條，這一條也遵照委員的提案\n，在第三項的部分，就行為人的用戶註冊資料，還有後續相關通知提供該違法資訊、網頁資料\n或行為人之用戶註冊資料做文字修正，然後也在立法說明增加網際網路接取服務提供者的樣態\n說明。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:07:13.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:07:22.233333+08:00","text":"王正旭委員也是上次講到個資，後來一樣按照你的意見修正為用戶註冊資料？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-07-30T15:07:22.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:07:31.440000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，第十五條之二跟第十五條之一的修正內涵，意見是一致的，如果同意的話\n，非常感謝，謝謝。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:07:31.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:07:33.332000+08:00","text":"其他委員有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:07:34.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:07:44.600000+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第十五條之二依行政院提案及委員王正旭等 3 人所提修正\n動議修正通過。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:07:44.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:07:48.433333+08:00","text":"接下來第二十五條之一。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:07:53.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:08:43.590000+08:00","text":"第二十五條之一是針對製造、輸入類菸品或其組合元件所訂的相關罰則，這個部分我\n們也尊重委員的提案，針對第一型跟第二型的級別，在查獲物件數一千件以下，且總淨重未逾\n348\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄\n十公斤者，從原本的「一百公斤」修正為「十公斤」者，處三年以下有期徒刑，並且在立法說\n明載明相對應的計算方式。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:08:54.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:09:22.448182+08:00","text":"對啦，其實因為你們現在的管理把吸食的器具跟煙油的原料都混在一起了，但這裡面\n是不是如果吸食的器具是一千件以下，但煙油的原料是十公斤，就是讓它的門檻越低越好，如\n果超過這個門檻就到刑法第一級去了。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:09:23.114444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:09:45.450000+08:00","text":"我們的意思是應該要從嚴，因為現在菸跟毒已經很難區\n辨，在這個新的時代，菸等於毒、毒等於菸的比例實在是大增了，我們不擔心錯殺，只擔心漏\n掉啦！","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:09:46.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:09:51.627778+08:00","text":"我認為這個如果全部都是煙油的原料的話，十公斤也是很多很多了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-30T15:09:58.931818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:10:00.550000+08:00","text":"你們昨天有來我們辦公室說明。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-30T15:10:01.083333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:10:07.550000+08:00","text":"之前我們的討論是十公斤，但訂為十公斤的話，會使\n這兩級難以有鑑別度。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-30T15:10:10.477273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:10:23.375000+08:00","text":"針對這部分，我、林淑芬委員、王正旭委員或林月琴委員的目標應該是\n避免孩子們去吸食到這些東西，所以到底幾公斤才算合理？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-30T15:10:24.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:10:31.656667+08:00","text":"坦白說，我覺得可能要行政機關來\n告訴我們到底……你們昨天跟我說考量到鑑別度的問題，所以可否再跟我們多說明一點？","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-30T15:10:32.012222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:10:34.590000+08:00","text":"其實\n我們的目標就是希望孩子不要吸到而已，就這樣子。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:10:36.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:10:47.887778+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們一開始在設計上有製造輸入、販賣供應兩個情節，其中，製造輸入\n比較嚴重，販賣供應比較不嚴重。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:10:48.332222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:11:02.928182+08:00","text":"在販賣供應部分，其實當初的設計是一百件十公斤以下，至於製造輸入部分就是一千件一百\n公斤，這是當初設計時的比例原則。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:11:03.824286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:11:13.950000+08:00","text":"不過在跟委員溝通時我們也了解到，製造輸入可能是原物\n料進來，至於販賣供應可能都已經是成品了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:11:14.695455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:11:25.950000+08:00","text":"考量到原物料，確實，十公斤的煙油可以製造出\n四千個兩 CC 煙彈，總件數其實也到一千件以上。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:11:26.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:11:35.023333+08:00","text":"基於這樣的考量，我們認為確實可以修正到十\n公斤，畢竟換算成煙油的話，件數也已經超過。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:11:35.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:11:43.047143+08:00","text":"目前煙油的樣態危害更大，只要過了這個量，\n就會達到這樣子程度的危害。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:11:43.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:11:55.904286+08:00","text":"不過我們考量到在不同的行為樣態下，比例上可能不是那麼均衡\n，但我們認為修正成十公斤應該也可行。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:00.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:12:02.738571+08:00","text":"委員有沒有其他意見？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:04.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:12:15.376667+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第二十五條之一依行政院提案、委員王正旭等 3人所提修\n正動議修正通過。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:16.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:12:20.041429+08:00","text":"接下來第二十五條之二。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:20.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:12:35.903333+08:00","text":"第二十五條之二是針對境外旅客自用，自己攜帶類菸品的排除……就是第一次採刑政\n罰，累犯採刑罰。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:36.681111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:12:46.195000+08:00","text":"當初有委員針對一年這部分有意見，經主管機關考量修正為五年內再犯。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:47.347778+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:12:52.070000+08:00","text":"之\n所以做此判斷，主要是兼顧累犯的情況去做設計。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:12:52.070000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:13:03.010000+08:00","text":"對第二十五條之二，委員有沒有意見？沒有。","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:13:03.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:13:06.795714+08:00","text":"沒有的話，這一條就依行政院提案修正通過。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:13:10.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:13:11.570000+08:00","text":"接下來第三十條。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:13:13.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:13:30.330000+08:00","text":"第三十條主要是根據第十五條之一，即前面關於網際網路業者管理的部分做一些文字\n上的修正。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:13:31.487143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:13:44.296667+08:00","text":"我唸一下：「但網際網路業者已依第十五條之一第四項所定辦法，盡管理義務並實\n施管理作為者，不予處罰」。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:13:44.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:13:48.296667+08:00","text":"所以這是隨同第十五條之一所做的文字修正。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:13:48.296667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:14:00.780000+08:00","text":"349\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄沒有。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:14:00.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:14:05.472308+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第三十條就依行政院提案修正通過。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:14:06.351429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:14:07.494286+08:00","text":"接下來續審第三十五條之一。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:14:09.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:14:44.328000+08:00","text":"第三十五條之一也是因為第十五條之一而做了一些文字上的修正，並增加該條第七項\n規定，我唸一下文字修正，第二款：「網際網路業者違反第十五條之一第六項規定，未依限保\n存資訊、資料，或違反同條第七項規定，未依主管機關通知提供資訊、資料。」沒有。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:14:46.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:14:53.722609+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第三十五條之一依行政院提案及委員王正旭等 3人所提修正動議通過。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:15:00.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:15:02.480000+08:00","text":"接下來第四十四條。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:15:03.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:15:20.917143+08:00","text":"這是遵照委員建議的版本，在原本的文字後面增加：「依本法應受處罰者，除依本法\n處罰外，其有犯罪嫌疑者，應移送司法機關處理。」。沒有。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:15:21.065714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:15:31.370000+08:00","text":"沒有的話，第四十四條依行政院提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正通過。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:15:31.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:15:37.860000+08:00","text":"接下來續審第四十七條。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:15:38.632727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:16:11.900000+08:00","text":"因為這次有修正第九條第二項，調高菸品容器警示圖文的面積到 85%，考量業者辦\n理包裝版面的調整需要緩衝時間，所以增加文字如下：「本法修正條文，除中華民國○年○月\n○日修正公布之第九條第二項自公布後一年施行外，自公布日施行。」。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2026-07-30T15:16:16.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:16:20.150000+08:00","text":"沒有，有一年的緩衝期是適當的，同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:16:21.316667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:16:25.350000+08:00","text":"第四十七條依行政院提案修正通過。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:16:27.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:16:42.353333+08:00","text":"接下來我們處理附帶決議及新增之附帶決議，請議事人員宣讀。","quality":0.346},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:16:42.353333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:16:52.557917+08:00","text":"附帶決議：\n1.\n菸害防制法第十五條之一 附帶決議\n本條修正增訂網際網路平台業者應負管理義務，以防止違法資訊散布，維護公共利益，方向\n值得肯定。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:16:52.557917+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:17:02.762500+08:00","text":"惟考量各類平台之規模、營運模式、服務型態及技術能力均有差異，如大型社群平\n台、搜尋引擎、電子商務平台及討論論壇等，其可負擔之管理義務不盡相同，若未建立差異化\n規範，恐增加業者法遵成本，亦不利制度執行。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:17:02.762500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:17:23.800000+08:00","text":"爰請主管機關於訂定相關子法時，盤點各類平\n台之營運特性及管理能力，依平台規模、服務型態及風險程度，訂定合理且具差異化之管理義\n務及認定標準，並於子法發布前提出評估報告，以兼顧防制違法資訊、平台責任及產業發展。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"提案人","start":"2026-07-30T15:17:25.057143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:17:25.271429+08:00","text":"林月琴","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"連署人","start":"2026-07-30T15:17:26.557143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:17:56.294286+08:00","text":"王正旭  林淑芬\n350\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄\n2.\n《菸害防制法》附帶決議\n考量菸品添加風味後容易誘導青少年及女性接觸與成瘾，菸害防制法第十條規定明定菸品不\n得使用中央主管機關公告禁止使用之添加物，然一百十二年日施行迄今，經兩次預告仍未完成\n公告程序，請衛生福利部儘速公告菸品禁止使用特徵風味添加物，以保障國人健康。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"提案人","start":"2026-07-30T15:17:57.151429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:17:58.722857+08:00","text":"王正旭  林淑芬  林月琴","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:17:59.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:18:05.357778+08:00","text":"先處理保留附帶決議的第 1案，這是上次保留的，原來保留的，請行政機關表示意見。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:00.753636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:03.056667+08:00","text":"剛才不是有個新的決議跟這個類似？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:04.726667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:06.313333+08:00","text":"所以這個還要再處理嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:11.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:17.040000+08:00","text":"因為這個牽扯到法律上\n比較細節的字眼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:23.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:25.378182+08:00","text":"剛才你們不是提了類似的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:25.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:30.337778+08:00","text":"對，在處理第十五條之一時有做文字修正了……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:30.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:31.560000+08:00","text":"所以這個不用了？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:32.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:35.115556+08:00","text":"好，這案就不處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:39.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:51.870000+08:00","text":"下一案，上次保留的第 2案，就是通知限制瀏覽、移除、限制接取。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:54.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:55.480000+08:00","text":"主管機關遵照辦理。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:55.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:57.680000+08:00","text":"遵照辦理就好。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:57.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:19:58.430000+08:00","text":"好，照案通過。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:19:59.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:01.400000+08:00","text":"接下來今天新的兩案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:01.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:13.813333+08:00","text":"第 1 案，有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:13.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:14.813333+08:00","text":"沒有，遵照辦理。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:14.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:16.694286+08:00","text":"好，照案通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:16.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:20.810000+08:00","text":"第 2案，王正旭委員提的，就是加味……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:23.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:24.913333+08:00","text":"風味添加物的部分，我們遵照辦理。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"沈署長靜芬","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:27.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:27.400000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:20:30.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:20:41.980000+08:00","text":"立法說明授權行政機關處理，本法案相關條次、條文中援引條次及法制用語調整，授權議事\n人員調整。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:24:56.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:12.996667+08:00","text":"協商結論：\n一、協商通過條文：增訂第十五條之一、增訂第十五條之二、增訂第二十五條之一、增訂第\n二十五條之二、第三十條、增訂第三十五條之一、第四十四條及第四十七條，如附件一\n。","quality":0.493},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:13.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:17.080000+08:00","text":"二、保留，送院會處理：第七條、第十條條文。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:17.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:21.227143+08:00","text":"三、審查會保留附帶決議第 1案，不予處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:21.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:26.036667+08:00","text":"四、審查會保留附帶決議第 2案，通過如附件二。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:27.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:31.586667+08:00","text":"五、新增附帶決議 2項，如附件三。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:32.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:35.976667+08:00","text":"六、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:36.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:40.136667+08:00","text":"351\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 黨團協商紀錄\n七、檢附修正之立法說明如附件四。","quality":0.31},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:41.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:45.230000+08:00","text":"請問大家有沒有意見？沒有。散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T15:25:45.730000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T15:25:51.158571+08:00","text":"散會（15時 25 分）\n352\n立法院公報 第 115卷 第 68期 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