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計時二案"},{"start":3196.49,"end":3198.49,"text":"那前接禁物二讀"},{"start":3198.52,"end":3200.52,"text":"二讀案之條文"},{"start":3200.52,"end":3202.52,"text":"委員會已通過條文部分"},{"start":3202.52,"end":3204.52,"text":"細案立法院職權刑事法"},{"start":3204.52,"end":3206.52,"text":"第12條第三項規定"},{"start":3206.52,"end":3208.52,"text":"那議詞不再討論"},{"start":3208.52,"end":3210.52,"text":"那屬上訴保留條文部分"},{"start":3210.52,"end":3212.52,"text":"並入該條式處理"},{"start":3212.52,"end":3214.52,"text":"新增未處理條式部分"},{"start":3214.52,"end":3216.52,"text":"那有一條則是"},{"start":3216.52,"end":3218.52,"text":"增列處理"},{"start":3218.52,"end":3220.52,"text":"那今天進行的方式"},{"start":3220.52,"end":3222.52,"text":"我們仍然是請衛福部來先做說明"},{"start":3222.52,"end":3224.52,"text":"那再請各位委員提出意見"},{"start":3224.52,"end":3226.52,"text":"最後會眾協商"},{"start":3226.52,"end":3228.52,"text":"結論再請各黨團來做簽名"},{"start":3236.94,"end":3240.94,"text":"那現在要來進行是台灣民眾黨所提的第五條條文的討論"},{"start":3240.94,"end":3242.94,"text":"那先請衛福部來做說明"},{"start":3244.18,"end":3246.18,"text":"今天只要說案件條文通過"},{"start":3246.18,"end":3248.18,"text":"或者是修正通過或是規正"},{"start":3250.09,"end":3252.09,"text":"有關第五條"},{"start":3252.09,"end":3254.09,"text":"條文第五條的部分"},{"start":3254.09,"end":3256.09,"text":"那主要是"},{"start":3256.09,"end":3258.09,"text":"先前在委員會審查的過程中"},{"start":3258.09,"end":3260.09,"text":"那主要的爭點"},{"start":3260.09,"end":3262.09,"text":"包括一個部分就是"},{"start":3262.09,"end":3264.09,"text":"對於身心障礙者的定義"},{"start":3264.09,"end":3266.09,"text":"那是不是要"},{"start":3266.09,"end":3268.09,"text":"這個有關在包括"},{"start":3268.09,"end":3270.09,"text":"是不是要長期"},{"start":3270.09,"end":3272.09,"text":"損傷的部分是不是要增列短暫"},{"start":3272.09,"end":3274.09,"text":"或者是間歇"},{"start":3274.09,"end":3276.09,"text":"那第二個就是"},{"start":3276.09,"end":3278.09,"text":"在這個部分的話"},{"start":3278.09,"end":3280.09,"text":"那我們考慮到"},{"start":3280.09,"end":3282.09,"text":"第二個是在文字"},{"start":3282.09,"end":3284.09,"text":"線型條文的文字上面"},{"start":3284.09,"end":3286.09,"text":"是會導致損傷或"},{"start":3287.16,"end":3289.16,"text":"會導致損傷或不全"},{"start":3289.16,"end":3291.16,"text":"這樣的文字"},{"start":3291.16,"end":3293.16,"text":"那對於身心障礙者的尊嚴的部分"},{"start":3293.16,"end":3295.16,"text":"是不是可以有更"},{"start":3295.16,"end":3297.16,"text":"更妥適的表述方式"},{"start":3297.16,"end":3299.16,"text":"那在就這個部分"},{"start":3299.16,"end":3301.16,"text":"那我們有建議"},{"start":3301.16,"end":3303.16,"text":"第一個就是在原則上"},{"start":3303.16,"end":3305.16,"text":"參考CRPD的精神"},{"start":3305.16,"end":3307.16,"text":"那對於身心障礙者的服務"},{"start":3307.16,"end":3309.16,"text":"他原則上還是維持一個比較偏重"},{"start":3309.16,"end":3311.16,"text":"在一個長期的狀態"},{"start":3311.16,"end":3313.16,"text":"那麼才會去認定他的"},{"start":3313.16,"end":3315.16,"text":"這個身心障礙者的資格"},{"start":3315.16,"end":3317.16,"text":"那另外一個就是在"},{"start":3317.16,"end":3319.16,"text":"文字的部分我們建議"},{"start":3319.16,"end":3321.16,"text":"能夠維持線型的條文"},{"start":3321.16,"end":3323.16,"text":"不去增列有關短暫或者是"},{"start":3323.16,"end":3325.16,"text":"長期短暫或者間歇"},{"start":3325.16,"end":3327.16,"text":"這樣子的文字"},{"start":3327.16,"end":3329.16,"text":"但是對於線型文字中"},{"start":3329.16,"end":3331.16,"text":"有關損傷或者不全的部分"},{"start":3331.16,"end":3333.16,"text":"那怎麼樣來提高"},{"start":3333.16,"end":3335.16,"text":"對於身心障礙者的尊重"},{"start":3335.16,"end":3337.16,"text":"那我們會有我們建議"},{"start":3337.16,"end":3339.16,"text":"是否可以考慮"},{"start":3339.16,"end":3341.16,"text":"這個就把"},{"start":3341.16,"end":3343.16,"text":"第一項的文字"},{"start":3343.16,"end":3345.16,"text":"單圈讀入下"},{"start":3373.16,"end":3375.16,"text":"專業團隊鑑定及評估"},{"start":3375.16,"end":3377.16,"text":"領有身心障礙證明者"},{"start":3377.16,"end":3379.16,"text":"那我們建議可以做這樣子的文字修正"},{"start":3379.16,"end":3381.16,"text":"以增加對於身心障礙者的尊嚴的保障"},{"start":3381.16,"end":3383.16,"text":"以上"},{"start":3385.11,"end":3387.11,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":3387.11,"end":3389.11,"text":"來請陳總裁委員"},{"start":3388.72,"end":3390.72,"text":"好再請換委員"},{"start":3391.3,"end":3393.3,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3393.3,"end":3395.3,"text":"因為過去的制度"},{"start":3395.3,"end":3397.3,"text":"我們受限於非常僵化醫療的視角"},{"start":3397.3,"end":3399.3,"text":"而且非常嚴苛的資格審查"},{"start":3399.3,"end":3401.3,"text":"所以我們也參考民間團體"},{"start":3401.3,"end":3403.3,"text":"的建議還有國際趨勢"},{"start":3403.3,"end":3405.3,"text":"那部分疾病我想跟"},{"start":3405.3,"end":3407.3,"text":"或重傷我想大家應該會了解"},{"start":3407.3,"end":3409.3,"text":"他的功能損傷可能是"},{"start":3409.3,"end":3411.3,"text":"就是短期或間歇性的"},{"start":3411.3,"end":3413.3,"text":"但是已經在日常生活"},{"start":3413.3,"end":3415.3,"text":"跟社會參與造成非常大的"},{"start":3415.3,"end":3417.3,"text":"限制了"},{"start":3417.3,"end":3419.3,"text":"但是又被排除在這個社會安全網跟"},{"start":3419.3,"end":3421.3,"text":"保護傘之外"},{"start":3421.3,"end":3423.3,"text":"很奇怪剛剛衛福部報告"},{"start":3423.3,"end":3425.3,"text":"你參考CRPD我也是參考CRPD"},{"start":3425.3,"end":3427.3,"text":"怎麼我們兩個看到的東西不一樣"},{"start":3427.3,"end":3429.3,"text":"根據CRPD第一條跟第二條"},{"start":3429.3,"end":3431.3,"text":"的定義以及第二次國家"},{"start":3431.3,"end":3433.3,"text":"報告結論性的意見有建議"},{"start":3433.3,"end":3435.3,"text":"第二國應該擴展"},{"start":3435.3,"end":3437.3,"text":"障礙定義的涵蓋性"},{"start":3437.3,"end":3439.3,"text":"納入包括間歇性及"},{"start":3439.3,"end":3441.3,"text":"暫時性限制這個人"},{"start":3441.3,"end":3443.3,"text":"避免採取過於嚴苛的資格"},{"start":3443.3,"end":3445.3,"text":"跟限制的獲得合理"},{"start":3445.3,"end":3447.3,"text":"調整的必要支持了"},{"start":3447.3,"end":3449.3,"text":"希望你要兼顧事實上"},{"start":3449.3,"end":3451.3,"text":"這一種障礙者他多元且真實的"},{"start":3451.3,"end":3453.3,"text":"這個處境"},{"start":3453.3,"end":3455.3,"text":"因為這是在那段時間他就是有"},{"start":3455.3,"end":3457.3,"text":"功能上的一些障礙"},{"start":3457.3,"end":3459.3,"text":"而且需要需求這樣的一個照顧"},{"start":3459.3,"end":3461.3,"text":"不好意思剛剛我"},{"start":3461.3,"end":3463.3,"text":"在確認一下你引用CRPD"},{"start":3463.3,"end":3465.3,"text":"我也引用CRPD"},{"start":3465.3,"end":3467.3,"text":"我們看的是同一版的CRPD嗎"},{"start":3467.3,"end":3469.3,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3469.8,"end":3471.8,"text":"好再請換委員"},{"start":3471.8,"end":3473.8,"text":"好晚上之後再請"},{"start":3473.8,"end":3475.8,"text":"他晚上之後再換你"},{"start":3476.37,"end":3478.37,"text":"大家好"},{"start":3478.37,"end":3480.37,"text":"我的版本還是希望"},{"start":3480.37,"end":3482.37,"text":"能夠把長期間歇或"},{"start":3482.37,"end":3484.37,"text":"短暫有損傷"},{"start":3484.37,"end":3486.37,"text":"影響其活動跟充分"},{"start":3486.37,"end":3488.37,"text":"平等參與社會生活"},{"start":3488.37,"end":3490.37,"text":"這些文字可以放入"},{"start":3490.37,"end":3492.37,"text":"主要的考慮也是因為說"},{"start":3492.37,"end":3494.37,"text":"其實現在所謂的身心障礙者"},{"start":3494.37,"end":3496.37,"text":"有些時候可能"},{"start":3496.37,"end":3498.37,"text":"不是長期的"},{"start":3498.37,"end":3500.37,"text":"那現在既然"},{"start":3500.37,"end":3502.37,"text":"我們都有相關的鑑定"},{"start":3502.37,"end":3504.37,"text":"我想大部分的人如果是非常"},{"start":3504.37,"end":3506.37,"text":"短期的他也不會特別這麼麻煩"},{"start":3506.37,"end":3508.37,"text":"去做鑑定"},{"start":3508.37,"end":3510.37,"text":"所以可以了解威福部的考量"},{"start":3510.37,"end":3512.37,"text":"是說資源有限傾向於"},{"start":3512.37,"end":3514.37,"text":"聚焦長期的障礙者"},{"start":3514.37,"end":3516.37,"text":"那但是如果真的有限"},{"start":3516.37,"end":3518.37,"text":"他的短期"},{"start":3518.37,"end":3520.37,"text":"可能真的影響譬如說運動員"},{"start":3520.37,"end":3522.37,"text":"受傷真的影響到他的日常"},{"start":3522.37,"end":3524.37,"text":"生活那家庭能夠給的"},{"start":3524.37,"end":3526.37,"text":"支持也有限的話我還是希望說"},{"start":3526.37,"end":3528.37,"text":"這個門不要一開始就關上"},{"start":3528.37,"end":3530.37,"text":"因為你既然已經有專業團隊"},{"start":3530.37,"end":3532.37,"text":"的鑑定跟法官"},{"start":3532.37,"end":3534.37,"text":"真的沒有很需要的人"},{"start":3534.37,"end":3536.37,"text":"也不會這麼麻煩去做鑑定"},{"start":3536.37,"end":3538.37,"text":"所以你們能夠還是考慮"},{"start":3538.37,"end":3540.37,"text":"就是很多"},{"start":3540.37,"end":3542.37,"text":"政權團體他們反應的"},{"start":3542.37,"end":3544.37,"text":"希望一開始這個門因為我們現在"},{"start":3544.37,"end":3546.37,"text":"談的這第五條還是在做定義"},{"start":3546.37,"end":3548.37,"text":"的部分能夠稍微再放寬"},{"start":3548.37,"end":3550.37,"text":"一點然後在鑑定"},{"start":3550.37,"end":3552.37,"text":"的那些時候我想我們"},{"start":3552.37,"end":3554.37,"text":"本來就有專業在把關"},{"start":3554.37,"end":3556.37,"text":"以上"},{"start":3556.42,"end":3558.42,"text":"好謝謝再請全委員"},{"start":3558.42,"end":3560.42,"text":"主席還有各位同仁大家好"},{"start":3560.42,"end":3562.42,"text":"那我想就是"},{"start":3562.42,"end":3564.42,"text":"關於日常生活"},{"start":3564.42,"end":3566.42,"text":"跟社會參與"},{"start":3566.42,"end":3568.42,"text":"功能上遭受到一點"},{"start":3568.42,"end":3570.42,"text":"限制的不只是這些"},{"start":3570.42,"end":3572.42,"text":"典型的傳統的一個"},{"start":3572.42,"end":3574.42,"text":"身障患者那有一些"},{"start":3576.4,"end":3580.4,"text":"個人呢他其實功能損傷可能是一個短期性的或間歇性的"},{"start":3580.4,"end":3582.4,"text":"那他在日常"},{"start":3582.4,"end":3584.4,"text":"生活跟社會參與"},{"start":3584.4,"end":3586.4,"text":"上其實是非常"},{"start":3586.4,"end":3588.4,"text":"困難的那例如說是一些"},{"start":3588.4,"end":3590.4,"text":"罹患癌症罹患"},{"start":3590.4,"end":3592.4,"text":"寒病歷經重大手術"},{"start":3592.4,"end":3594.4,"text":"之後短期的失能"},{"start":3594.4,"end":3596.4,"text":"那如果這些人他沒有被"},{"start":3596.4,"end":3598.4,"text":"寒過在身障這個"},{"start":3598.4,"end":3600.4,"text":"權法的保障範圍之內"},{"start":3600.4,"end":3602.4,"text":"可能他在一些"},{"start":3602.4,"end":3604.4,"text":"制度的使用上"},{"start":3604.4,"end":3606.4,"text":"都會遭遇到一些限制"},{"start":3606.4,"end":3608.4,"text":"所以我們這邊也是主張"},{"start":3608.4,"end":3610.4,"text":"就是除了長期就是加進去"},{"start":3610.4,"end":3612.4,"text":"七個字"},{"start":3612.4,"end":3614.4,"text":"就是長期短暫"},{"start":3614.4,"end":3616.4,"text":"或間歇有損傷者"},{"start":3616.4,"end":3618.4,"text":"也應該一併讓他們被這個"},{"start":3618.4,"end":3620.4,"text":"制度所接觸以上說明"},{"start":3621.2,"end":3623.2,"text":"好謝謝裘委員"},{"start":3623.21,"end":3625.21,"text":"好那請衛生部"},{"start":3625.21,"end":3627.21,"text":"來做回應或說明"},{"start":3628.11,"end":3630.11,"text":"是針對兩位委員的"},{"start":3630.11,"end":3632.11,"text":"詢詢的部分"},{"start":3632.27,"end":3634.27,"text":"三位委員的說明"},{"start":3634.27,"end":3636.27,"text":"我們大概做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":3636.27,"end":3638.27,"text":"其實就我們所查到"},{"start":3638.27,"end":3640.27,"text":"身心障礙者權利保障公約"},{"start":3640.27,"end":3642.27,"text":"對於身心障礙者"},{"start":3642.27,"end":3644.27,"text":"他的定義是這樣"},{"start":3644.27,"end":3646.27,"text":"身心障礙者是包括肢體精神"},{"start":3646.27,"end":3648.27,"text":"智力或感官長期損傷者"},{"start":3648.27,"end":3650.27,"text":"其損傷與各種障礙"},{"start":3650.27,"end":3652.27,"text":"相互作用可能阻礙"},{"start":3652.27,"end":3654.27,"text":"身心障礙者與他人"},{"start":3654.27,"end":3656.27,"text":"於平等基礎上有效參與"},{"start":3656.27,"end":3658.27,"text":"社會那我們從"},{"start":3658.27,"end":3660.27,"text":"這樣的一個定義去看我們會建議"},{"start":3660.27,"end":3662.27,"text":"就是說這個我們現在"},{"start":3662.27,"end":3664.27,"text":"已經有國內已經有身心障礙者"},{"start":3664.27,"end":3666.27,"text":"實行法跟身心障礙者"},{"start":3666.27,"end":3668.27,"text":"權利保障法之間我們現在"},{"start":3668.27,"end":3670.27,"text":"兩個法律之間在定義"},{"start":3670.27,"end":3672.27,"text":"上面能夠相互呼應"},{"start":3672.27,"end":3674.27,"text":"所以我們會建議在這個部分"},{"start":3674.27,"end":3676.27,"text":"是不是可以先不把"},{"start":3676.27,"end":3678.27,"text":"短暫或間接這樣的概念"},{"start":3678.27,"end":3680.27,"text":"先引用進來那剛才有"},{"start":3680.27,"end":3682.27,"text":"提到在定義在身心障礙者"},{"start":3682.27,"end":3684.27,"text":"的定義裡面有提到對於"},{"start":3684.27,"end":3686.27,"text":"這個有關參與"},{"start":3686.27,"end":3688.27,"text":"社會或者是跟社會"},{"start":3688.27,"end":3690.27,"text":"相關各種障礙性的交互作用"},{"start":3690.27,"end":3692.27,"text":"等等的部分那其實現在在"},{"start":3692.27,"end":3694.27,"text":"我們實際上在以本第五條"},{"start":3694.27,"end":3696.27,"text":"的第一項我們後續"},{"start":3696.27,"end":3698.27,"text":"在做相關鑑定的部分"},{"start":3698.27,"end":3700.27,"text":"的時候那這個我們俗稱"},{"start":3700.27,"end":3702.27,"text":"就有在鑑定的內容"},{"start":3702.27,"end":3704.27,"text":"裡面它是有包括身體"},{"start":3704.27,"end":3706.27,"text":"系統構造及功能我們一般"},{"start":3706.27,"end":3708.27,"text":"俗稱把它叫做BS"},{"start":3708.27,"end":3710.27,"text":"那這個比較偏動身體功能的部分"},{"start":3710.27,"end":3712.27,"text":"那另外對於它的活動參與"},{"start":3712.27,"end":3714.27,"text":"以及環境因素的部分"},{"start":3714.27,"end":3716.27,"text":"這個部分我們大概習慣會把它"},{"start":3716.27,"end":3718.27,"text":"稱為第一碼那像這個第一碼"},{"start":3718.27,"end":3720.27,"text":"現在也已經在先前幾年"},{"start":3720.27,"end":3722.27,"text":"我們已經把它納進"},{"start":3722.27,"end":3724.27,"text":"現在身心障礙者身上"},{"start":3724.27,"end":3726.27,"text":"鑑定的鑑定書"},{"start":3726.27,"end":3728.27,"text":"鑑定的要項裡面去所以一定"},{"start":3728.27,"end":3730.27,"text":"程度其實對於這樣的一個情形"},{"start":3730.27,"end":3732.27,"text":"它是這個"},{"start":3732.27,"end":3734.27,"text":"如果身心障礙者他跟社會互動的"},{"start":3734.27,"end":3736.27,"text":"部分除了身體上的狀況"},{"start":3736.27,"end":3738.27,"text":"之外"},{"start":3737.44,"end":3739.44,"text":"跟社會的互動在鑑定過程中"},{"start":3739.44,"end":3741.44,"text":"是可以被考慮進去的"},{"start":3741.44,"end":3743.44,"text":"那第二個就是這個"},{"start":3743.44,"end":3745.44,"text":"如果是考慮到這個一個"},{"start":3745.44,"end":3747.44,"text":"身心障礙者那他在"},{"start":3747.44,"end":3749.44,"text":"完成鑑定前的這一段時間"},{"start":3749.44,"end":3751.44,"text":"他可能會有一些"},{"start":3751.44,"end":3753.44,"text":"服務的需求那其實"},{"start":3753.44,"end":3755.44,"text":"我們現在也在規劃那"},{"start":3755.44,"end":3757.44,"text":"未來對於有這樣子狀況"},{"start":3757.44,"end":3759.44,"text":"的一些這個"},{"start":3759.44,"end":3761.44,"text":"對象他在完成鑑定"},{"start":3761.44,"end":3763.44,"text":"前的時候我們在不影響"},{"start":3763.44,"end":3765.44,"text":"身心障礙者定義的"},{"start":3765.44,"end":3767.44,"text":"情況下我們可以也評估"},{"start":3767.44,"end":3769.44,"text":"那透過一些"},{"start":3769.44,"end":3771.44,"text":"服務性的一些計畫"},{"start":3771.44,"end":3773.44,"text":"那對於這些在完成鑑定"},{"start":3773.44,"end":3775.44,"text":"前的一些服務對象"},{"start":3775.44,"end":3777.44,"text":"有特定相關的需求我們來評估"},{"start":3777.44,"end":3779.44,"text":"嚴禮相關的計畫來提供"},{"start":3779.44,"end":3781.44,"text":"給他在這個過渡期中間"},{"start":3781.44,"end":3783.44,"text":"是不是有一些相關的服務"},{"start":3783.44,"end":3785.44,"text":"跟給他一些支持的動作"},{"start":3785.44,"end":3787.44,"text":"那這個部分我們也會納入評估"},{"start":3787.44,"end":3789.44,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":3790.05,"end":3790.55,"text":"好"},{"start":3791.25,"end":3793.25,"text":"那這個社交署之後這樣回應"},{"start":3793.25,"end":3795.25,"text":"各位還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":3795.25,"end":3797.25,"text":"來請陳昭之委"},{"start":3798.51,"end":3800.51,"text":"照你們的說法 衛福部的說法"},{"start":3800.51,"end":3802.51,"text":"那個哪個地方也包含"},{"start":3802.51,"end":3804.51,"text":"哪個地方也包含 那我想請教一件事"},{"start":3804.51,"end":3806.51,"text":"那我們這裡寫下這些字"},{"start":3806.51,"end":3808.51,"text":"有困難嗎"},{"start":3808.55,"end":3810.55,"text":"會造成什麼樣的問題嗎"},{"start":3810.55,"end":3812.55,"text":"為什麼不能在這邊納入呢"},{"start":3814.05,"end":3816.05,"text":"這個是最原本的法"},{"start":3816.05,"end":3818.05,"text":"的聲障法"},{"start":3817.29,"end":3819.29,"text":"讓這些聲障朋友看到"},{"start":3819.29,"end":3821.29,"text":"這些字也出現在這裡"},{"start":3822.72,"end":3824.72,"text":"對你們來說有困難嗎"},{"start":3824.72,"end":3826.72,"text":"會造成什麼樣後果嗎"},{"start":3827.37,"end":3829.37,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3829.37,"end":3831.37,"text":"我們比較"},{"start":3831.37,"end":3833.37,"text":"在評估上面"},{"start":3833.37,"end":3835.37,"text":"我們覺得可能會比較需要注意的"},{"start":3835.37,"end":3837.37,"text":"一個是短暫的樣子情形"},{"start":3837.37,"end":3839.37,"text":"那如果是短暫的話"},{"start":3839.37,"end":3841.37,"text":"會有兩種狀況"},{"start":3841.37,"end":3843.37,"text":"第一個是這個短暫"},{"start":3843.37,"end":3845.37,"text":"如果他後面是可恢復的"},{"start":3845.37,"end":3847.37,"text":"那麼這一類個案"},{"start":3847.37,"end":3849.37,"text":"例如說像孤折"},{"start":3849.37,"end":3851.37,"text":"那他可能需要比較是短期的醫療復健"},{"start":3851.37,"end":3853.37,"text":"那在完成之後"},{"start":3853.37,"end":3855.37,"text":"那他其實會恢復健康"},{"start":3855.37,"end":3857.37,"text":"那如果我們現在用這樣的定義進來的時候"},{"start":3857.37,"end":3859.37,"text":"他在骨折的"},{"start":3859.37,"end":3861.37,"text":"骨折期間他會被定義"},{"start":3861.37,"end":3863.37,"text":"他已經不無可能會被定義成"},{"start":3863.37,"end":3865.37,"text":"是身心障礙者"},{"start":3865.37,"end":3867.37,"text":"那他也會使用身心障礙相關的服務"},{"start":3867.37,"end":3869.37,"text":"那麼這樣的話其實"},{"start":3869.37,"end":3871.37,"text":"對於現在已經這個"},{"start":3871.37,"end":3873.37,"text":"我們這個身心障礙者"},{"start":3873.37,"end":3875.37,"text":"一般多數現有的身心障礙者"},{"start":3875.37,"end":3877.37,"text":"可以使用的服務資源相對來說"},{"start":3877.37,"end":3879.37,"text":"在資源並不是十分"},{"start":3879.37,"end":3881.37,"text":"這個現有資源底下可能會"},{"start":3881.37,"end":3883.37,"text":"發生一個競爭"},{"start":3883.37,"end":3885.37,"text":"或者是資源排擠的狀況"},{"start":3885.37,"end":3887.37,"text":"那以這類情形我們會建議"},{"start":3887.37,"end":3889.37,"text":"所以在短暫的部分"},{"start":3889.37,"end":3891.37,"text":"他在解讀上面可能是會有一些"},{"start":3891.37,"end":3893.37,"text":"這個如果在解讀上面"},{"start":3893.37,"end":3895.37,"text":"比較不謹慎的時候"},{"start":3895.37,"end":3897.37,"text":"是可能發生後面在資源使用上面"},{"start":3897.37,"end":3899.37,"text":"的一些這個"},{"start":3899.37,"end":3901.37,"text":"一些比較我們"},{"start":3901.37,"end":3903.37,"text":"比較難預期的狀況以上"},{"start":3903.81,"end":3905.81,"text":"請問你這個短暫難以解釋"},{"start":3905.81,"end":3907.81,"text":"你是替醫師在講話嗎"},{"start":3907.81,"end":3909.81,"text":"還是你都不寫的話"},{"start":3909.81,"end":3911.81,"text":"難道就很好解釋嗎"},{"start":3911.81,"end":3913.81,"text":"很好定義嗎"},{"start":3913.81,"end":3915.81,"text":"這個就是間歇的或是短期的"},{"start":3915.81,"end":3917.81,"text":"你不寫就只是迴避啊"},{"start":3917.81,"end":3919.81,"text":"那你寫了說不好"},{"start":3919.81,"end":3921.81,"text":"這個處理但是有"},{"start":3921.81,"end":3923.81,"text":"後面都是專業人員啊"},{"start":3923.81,"end":3925.81,"text":"你如果病就有醫事人員啊"},{"start":3925.81,"end":3927.81,"text":"如果其他就是說疾病相關的"},{"start":3927.81,"end":3929.81,"text":"那也有這個社工師或是誰"},{"start":3929.81,"end":3931.81,"text":"對啊這樣有問題嗎"},{"start":3931.81,"end":3933.81,"text":"跟我們報告現在"},{"start":3933.81,"end":3935.81,"text":"現行的條文裡面其實沒有特別"},{"start":3935.81,"end":3937.81,"text":"去加短期間歇長期"},{"start":3937.81,"end":3939.81,"text":"都沒有這樣的文字"},{"start":3939.81,"end":3941.81,"text":"他就是一個功能性的描述"},{"start":3941.81,"end":3943.81,"text":"他們希望加入就一定是擔心嘛"},{"start":3943.81,"end":3945.81,"text":"如果是加進不管是長期"},{"start":3945.81,"end":3947.81,"text":"或者是短期就會發生"},{"start":3947.81,"end":3949.81,"text":"什麼樣的時間較長"},{"start":3949.81,"end":3951.81,"text":"什麼樣的時間較短"},{"start":3951.81,"end":3953.81,"text":"那麼這一點他其實"},{"start":3953.81,"end":3955.81,"text":"實務上面現在對於身障者的"},{"start":3955.81,"end":3957.81,"text":"鑑定的時候都是在鑑定"},{"start":3957.81,"end":3959.81,"text":"的過程裡面"},{"start":3959.81,"end":3961.81,"text":"這個依照我們現在在第五條"},{"start":3961.81,"end":3963.81,"text":"有授權一個做相關的鑑定辦法"},{"start":3963.81,"end":3965.81,"text":"那鑑定的醫師根據他的功能"},{"start":3965.81,"end":3967.81,"text":"根據他的不管是我們剛才提到BS"},{"start":3967.81,"end":3969.81,"text":"或者第一碼的狀況"},{"start":3969.81,"end":3971.81,"text":"既然有授權的辦法"},{"start":3971.81,"end":3973.81,"text":"那如果在鑑定的過程中"},{"start":3973.81,"end":3975.81,"text":"那有一些狀況還沒有"},{"start":3975.81,"end":3977.81,"text":"辦法確定現行的實務上"},{"start":3977.81,"end":3979.81,"text":"那麼我們鑑定的"},{"start":3979.81,"end":3981.81,"text":"醫師他也可以開出來"},{"start":3981.81,"end":3983.81,"text":"一個比較短期間"},{"start":3983.81,"end":3985.81,"text":"的一個身障鑑定"},{"start":3985.81,"end":3987.81,"text":"政策"},{"start":3987.81,"end":3989.81,"text":"你聽聽看病例到底是寫得越模糊"},{"start":3989.81,"end":3991.81,"text":"將來這個"},{"start":3991.81,"end":3993.81,"text":"越不會有問題呢"},{"start":3993.81,"end":3995.81,"text":"還是說寫得越輕這個過去是完全"},{"start":3995.81,"end":3997.81,"text":"兩個概念當我們去追究"},{"start":3997.81,"end":3999.81,"text":"一些病友的權益或是醫師的"},{"start":3999.81,"end":4001.81,"text":"責任等等"},{"start":4001.81,"end":4003.81,"text":"我們希望把這個字眼放進去"},{"start":4003.81,"end":4005.81,"text":"是反而是更清楚"},{"start":4005.81,"end":4007.81,"text":"那你現在如果模糊了"},{"start":4007.81,"end":4009.81,"text":"不把這個字眼放進去你說他們"},{"start":4009.81,"end":4011.81,"text":"有解讀的空間他們"},{"start":4011.81,"end":4013.81,"text":"會有專業人來處理"},{"start":4013.81,"end":4015.81,"text":"我們今天是"},{"start":4015.81,"end":4017.81,"text":"是可以直接問那個部會不用"},{"start":4017.81,"end":4019.81,"text":"經過主席同意是不是"},{"start":4019.81,"end":4021.81,"text":"因為我剛剛都尊重主席然後都還沒機會"},{"start":4021.81,"end":4023.81,"text":"講話"},{"start":4023.44,"end":4025.44,"text":"因為他在我們就在"},{"start":4025.44,"end":4027.44,"text":"對談中啊"},{"start":4027.44,"end":4029.44,"text":"那這樣不然永遠沒辦法討論對焦啊"},{"start":4030.96,"end":4032.96,"text":"問一下主席啦尊重主席的決定"},{"start":4032.96,"end":4034.96,"text":"好啦因為那個署長都不看我"},{"start":4034.96,"end":4036.96,"text":"我也是在很難"},{"start":4037.88,"end":4039.88,"text":"好"},{"start":4038.86,"end":4040.86,"text":"所以麻煩你一下"},{"start":4041.63,"end":4043.63,"text":"我們請王智旭委員"},{"start":4043.63,"end":4045.63,"text":"來選選之後再請歡迎委員"},{"start":4045.63,"end":4047.63,"text":"然後再請署長統一答"},{"start":4047.72,"end":4049.72,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":4049.72,"end":4051.72,"text":"請你多看我幾眼"},{"start":4051.72,"end":4053.72,"text":"我想大家都非常關心什麼時候"},{"start":4053.72,"end":4055.72,"text":"可以拿到相關的"},{"start":4055.72,"end":4057.72,"text":"身心障礙證明讓他在"},{"start":4057.72,"end":4059.72,"text":"有需要的時候第一時間"},{"start":4059.72,"end":4061.72,"text":"不管是短期長期"},{"start":4061.72,"end":4063.72,"text":"間歇就能夠"},{"start":4063.72,"end":4065.72,"text":"取得很好的"},{"start":4065.72,"end":4067.72,"text":"服務的架構跟內容"},{"start":4067.72,"end":4069.72,"text":"我想在這一條裡面目前"},{"start":4069.72,"end":4071.72,"text":"正在關心的就是這一部分"},{"start":4071.72,"end":4073.72,"text":"那如果參考"},{"start":4073.72,"end":4075.72,"text":"附在決議裡面"},{"start":4075.72,"end":4077.72,"text":"剛剛署長所提到"},{"start":4077.72,"end":4079.72,"text":"在還沒有完成鑑定之前"},{"start":4079.72,"end":4081.72,"text":"有需要服務的時候"},{"start":4081.72,"end":4083.72,"text":"那如何能夠涵掛"},{"start":4083.72,"end":4085.72,"text":"這些有需要服務的"},{"start":4085.72,"end":4087.72,"text":"這些民眾真的能夠"},{"start":4087.72,"end":4089.72,"text":"有效地去"},{"start":4089.72,"end":4091.72,"text":"好的服務計畫這個是"},{"start":4091.72,"end":4093.72,"text":"再過來我們很期待的"},{"start":4093.72,"end":4095.72,"text":"那越秦委員所提的"},{"start":4095.72,"end":4097.719999999999,"text":"附帶決議裡面是有針對"},{"start":4097.719999999999,"end":4099.719999999999,"text":"因燒"},{"start":4099.719999999999,"end":4101.719999999999,"text":"燒燙傷"},{"start":4101.719999999999,"end":4103.719999999999,"text":"精神疾病脊髓損傷"},{"start":4103.72,"end":4105.72,"text":"是列出了這三個大部分"},{"start":4105.72,"end":4107.72,"text":"那其實剛剛"},{"start":4107.72,"end":4109.72,"text":"也有提到包括像"},{"start":4109.72,"end":4111.72,"text":"癌症病人當他在積極治療的時候"},{"start":4111.72,"end":4113.72,"text":"他事實上也很"},{"start":4113.72,"end":4115.72,"text":"需要有類似的服務所以"},{"start":4115.72,"end":4117.72,"text":"如果我們能夠把這些都涵掛進來"},{"start":4117.72,"end":4119.72,"text":"的話我們希望能夠"},{"start":4119.72,"end":4121.72,"text":"有效地解決在"},{"start":4121.72,"end":4123.72,"text":"目前半年"},{"start":4123.72,"end":4125.72,"text":"以上的這個認定"},{"start":4125.72,"end":4127.72,"text":"身心障礙的證明的過程裡面"},{"start":4127.72,"end":4129.72,"text":"希望就能夠有"},{"start":4129.72,"end":4131.72,"text":"好的方式來解決"},{"start":4131.72,"end":4133.72,"text":"現在有的困難以上"},{"start":4133.72,"end":4135.72,"text":"的部分可不可以再請"},{"start":4135.86,"end":4137.86,"text":"主管機關在"},{"start":4137.86,"end":4139.86,"text":"預議說明以上"},{"start":4142.2,"end":4144.2,"text":"好"},{"start":4144.19,"end":4146.19,"text":"委員的這個建立"},{"start":4146.19,"end":4148.19,"text":"醫師背景的"},{"start":4148.19,"end":4150.19,"text":"那接下來請歡迎委員晚之後"},{"start":4150.19,"end":4152.19,"text":"再請廖義強委員謝謝"},{"start":4152.19,"end":4154.19,"text":"其實這個部分喔"},{"start":4154.19,"end":4156.19,"text":"我跟民眾黨團還有那個王振勳醫師"},{"start":4156.19,"end":4158.19,"text":"還有沒有在場的武力華委員"},{"start":4158.19,"end":4160.19,"text":"我們的版本都很接近啦"},{"start":4160.19,"end":4162.19,"text":"我看起來是這樣一個版本"},{"start":4162.19,"end":4164.19,"text":"然後那個林育群委員跟召委"},{"start":4164.19,"end":4166.19,"text":"他們是提就是相互作用互動的部分"},{"start":4166.19,"end":4168.19,"text":"我覺得大家的目的都很清楚"},{"start":4168.19,"end":4170.19,"text":"就是希望在定義的時候"},{"start":4170.19,"end":4172.19,"text":"門訣"},{"start":4172.19,"end":4174.19,"text":"希望在定義的時候門就寬一點"},{"start":4174.19,"end":4176.19,"text":"那等到在"},{"start":4176.19,"end":4178.19,"text":"鑑定的時候"},{"start":4178.19,"end":4180.19,"text":"或者你其他可以用行政命令處理的時候"},{"start":4180.19,"end":4182.19,"text":"那能夠再更細緻的"},{"start":4182.19,"end":4184.19,"text":"去區分所謂的長期"},{"start":4184.19,"end":4186.19,"text":"短期也許"},{"start":4186.19,"end":4188.19,"text":"他有一個不同的"},{"start":4188.19,"end":4190.19,"text":"一個對待方式"},{"start":4190.19,"end":4192.19,"text":"所以我是覺得剛剛衛福部聽起來"},{"start":4192.19,"end":4194.19,"text":"精神上好像並不反對"},{"start":4194.19,"end":4196.19,"text":"這樣子做那只是"},{"start":4196.19,"end":4198.19,"text":"你們蠻堅持你們原來的條文"},{"start":4198.19,"end":4200.19,"text":"那我不知道衛福部"},{"start":4200.19,"end":4202.19,"text":"會不會考慮"},{"start":4202.19,"end":4204.19,"tex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好"},{"start":4559.88,"end":4561.88,"text":"我等一下再發言"},{"start":4565.75,"end":4567.75,"text":"好"},{"start":4567.01,"end":4569.01,"text":"那各位委員如果針對"},{"start":4569.01,"end":4571.01,"text":"來 請委員"},{"start":4571.03,"end":4573.03,"text":"第七條"},{"start":4572.51,"end":4574.51,"text":"好 沒有問題"},{"start":4574.51,"end":4576.51,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4576.51,"end":4578.51,"text":"好 那我們現在針對第七條"},{"start":4578.51,"end":4580.51,"text":"來做說明"},{"start":4580.51,"end":4582.51,"text":"那信息的條文在第二項的部分"},{"start":4588.53,"end":4590.53,"text":"好"},{"start":4589.66,"end":4590.66,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4590.66,"end":4591.66,"text":"代表黨團"},{"start":4591.66,"end":4593.66,"text":"就是那個團體希望在"},{"start":4593.66,"end":4595.66,"text":"經濟的部分是"},{"start":4595.66,"end":4596.66,"text":"因為那個看起來很廣泛"},{"start":4596.66,"end":4598.66,"text":"經濟論就是個人的經濟"},{"start":4598.66,"end":4600.66,"text":"我先"},{"start":4600.61,"end":4601.61,"text":"我們有"},{"start":4601.61,"end":4603.61,"text":"我們有提第七條的說明"},{"start":4603.61,"end":4604.61,"text":"但是剛剛"},{"start":4604.61,"end":4606.61,"text":"微服部的回應"},{"start":4607.28,"end":4609.28,"text":"就是原來的"},{"start":4609.28,"end":4611.28,"text":"對啊 都討論過了都忘記了"},{"start":4611.28,"end":4613.28,"text":"好 那我還是代表"},{"start":4613.28,"end":4615.28,"text":"就是說在經濟"},{"start":4615.28,"end":4616.28,"text":"那個字眼的部分"},{"start":4616.28,"end":4617.28,"text":"那個經濟部分"},{"start":4617.28,"end":4619.28,"text":"希望加入能夠個人的"},{"start":4619.28,"end":4620.28,"text":"這個經濟的部分"},{"start":4620.28,"end":4621.28,"text":"我代表"},{"start":4621.28,"end":4622.28,"text":"就加兩個字看它"},{"start":4622.28,"end":4624.28,"text":"對 對 是個人經濟情況"},{"start":4626.53,"end":4627.53,"text":"都請大家"},{"start":4627.53,"end":4628.53,"text":"就是"},{"start":4628.53,"end":4630.53,"text":"能夠支持"},{"start":4630.53,"end":4632.53,"text":"身心障礙者類別程度"},{"start":4632.53,"end":4634.53,"text":"經濟情況"},{"start":4634.53,"end":4635.53,"text":"他一直都要鎖定個人"},{"start":4635.53,"end":4637.53,"text":"個人的經濟情況"},{"start":4637.53,"end":4638.53,"text":"個人的經濟情況"},{"start":4638.53,"end":4640.53,"text":"對 這是聲浪者"},{"start":4640.53,"end":4641.53,"text":"他的前提不是身心障礙者"},{"start":4641.53,"end":4643.53,"text":"就指個人吧"},{"start":4645.2,"end":4646.2,"text":"應該是這樣了"},{"start":4647.22,"end":4649.22,"text":"來 請署長回應好不好"},{"start":4649.22,"end":4650.22,"text":"署長 這樣寫可以嗎"},{"start":4650.22,"end":4652.22,"text":"跟各位報告"},{"start":4652.22,"end":4653.22,"text":"那這個邊其實在"},{"start":4653.22,"end":4656.22,"text":"現行對於身心障礙者的一些服務裡面"},{"start":4656.22,"end":4657.22,"text":"我們現行的條文"},{"start":4657.22,"end":4658.22,"text":"第二項"},{"start":4658.22,"end":4661.22,"text":"現行的文字是用家庭經濟狀況"},{"start":4661.22,"end":4662.22,"text":"那是不是要把它修成"},{"start":4662.22,"end":4663.22,"text":"個人經濟狀況"},{"start":4663.22,"end":4666.22,"text":"其實它需要跟現行其他的法律"},{"start":4666.22,"end":4668.22,"text":"能夠做一個比較完整的配套"},{"start":4668.22,"end":4670.22,"text":"那目前它主要會"},{"start":4670.22,"end":4672.22,"text":"牽動到的法律的部分"},{"start":4672.22,"end":4674.22,"text":"主要是跟社會救助法的關係"},{"start":4674.22,"end":4675.22,"text":"那社會救助法"},{"start":4675.22,"end":4677.22,"text":"目前因為現在有很多"},{"start":4677.22,"end":4679.22,"text":"身心障礙者的經濟輔助的部分"},{"start":4679.22,"end":4683.22,"text":"它還是會跟社會救助法的"},{"start":4683.22,"end":4686.22,"text":"一些經濟門檻會有相關的連動"},{"start":4686.22,"end":4688.22,"text":"那我們是建議"},{"start":4688.22,"end":4689.22,"text":"這個目前社會救助法"},{"start":4689.22,"end":4691.22,"text":"目前還正在這個"},{"start":4691.22,"end":4693.22,"text":"我們在做檢討修正"},{"start":4693.22,"end":4695.22,"text":"目前草案還沒有送到立法院這邊來"},{"start":4695.22,"end":4697.22,"text":"那我們所以建議是說"},{"start":4697.22,"end":4700.22,"text":"考慮到這樣一個比較折衷的情形"},{"start":4700.22,"end":4701.22,"text":"我們是不是就先把"},{"start":4701.22,"end":4704.22,"text":"家庭這兩個字我們把它拿掉"},{"start":4704.22,"end":4706.22,"text":"但是不特別明確個人"},{"start":4706.22,"end":4709.22,"text":"因為這並不僅僅將來有跨法律中間"},{"start":4709.22,"end":4711.22,"text":"要對照的一個考量"},{"start":4711.22,"end":4713.22,"text":"那我們是不是建議就是說"},{"start":4713.22,"end":4716.22,"text":"就建議文字上面我們就不特別去描述"},{"start":4716.22,"end":4718.22,"text":"單純去列家庭"},{"start":4718.22,"end":4720.22,"text":"是不是可以做這樣的處理"},{"start":4720.22,"end":4722.22,"text":"甄勳各位委員意見 謝謝"},{"start":4723.87,"end":4725.87,"text":"陳同學委員"},{"start":4737.91,"end":4739.91,"text":"把家庭兩個字拿掉就是那個經濟"},{"start":4741.8,"end":4742.8,"text":"經濟情況"},{"start":4742.8,"end":4744.8,"text":"那你們解讀這個經濟情況是"},{"start":4746.39,"end":4748.39,"text":"是怎樣是涵蓋客人還是涵蓋"},{"start":4748.39,"end":4750.39,"text":"就你們的解讀是什麼"},{"start":4750.39,"end":4752.39,"text":"我們可以清楚嗎"},{"start":4754.13,"end":4755.13,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4755.13,"end":4756.13,"text":"那跟我們報告"},{"start":4756.13,"end":4760.13,"text":"那我們建議把家庭兩個字拿掉的時候是"},{"start":4760.13,"end":4764.13,"text":"因為未來一定還是有一些經濟的支持"},{"start":4764.13,"end":4766.13,"text":"或者等等的考量"},{"start":4766.13,"end":4769.13,"text":"他會必須要考慮到社會救助法"},{"start":4769.13,"end":4771.13,"text":"但是社會救助法目前現行的規定"},{"start":4771.13,"end":4773.13,"text":"仍然是以家庭為基礎"},{"start":4773.13,"end":4775.13,"text":"但是我們現在如果把"},{"start":4775.13,"end":4777.13,"text":"如果單獨列個人的時候"},{"start":4777.13,"end":4779.13,"text":"那將來對於社會救助法等於"},{"start":4779.13,"end":4782.13,"text":"在審查的時候會幾乎等於完全排除掉"},{"start":4782.13,"end":4784.13,"text":"那我們是覺得在考慮上面"},{"start":4784.13,"end":4786.13,"text":"我們把它放到比較寬"},{"start":4786.13,"end":4790.13,"text":"就是我們用經濟狀況來處理的時候"},{"start":4790.13,"end":4793.13,"text":"那當然如果一定的某些角度"},{"start":4793.13,"end":4796.13,"text":"如果有需要考慮個人的情況的時候"},{"start":4796.13,"end":4798.13,"text":"以現在這個折衷式的條文的話"},{"start":4798.13,"end":4801.13,"text":"各種人因素一定程度是有機會被納進來"},{"start":4801.13,"end":4804.13,"text":"但是家庭並不會被完全排除"},{"start":4804.13,"end":4807.13,"text":"那我們是建議是不是有這樣的一個折衷的空間"},{"start":4807.13,"end":4810.13,"text":"那我建議這一條這個先保留好不好"},{"start":4810.13,"end":4812.13,"text":"就是本來是要過的"},{"start":4812.13,"end":4814.13,"text":"如果這樣的話就先保留"},{"start":4814.13,"end":4816.13,"text":"因為你剛剛又提到社會救助法"},{"start":4816.13,"end":4818.13,"text":"然後你剛剛的解釋又非常的模糊"},{"start":4818.13,"end":4820.13,"text":"就是這樣的一個經濟情況"},{"start":4820.13,"end":4824.13,"text":"到底是個人或家庭就是一種講不清楚這樣子"},{"start":4824.13,"end":4826.13,"text":"先保留好了 張委員"},{"start":4826.13,"end":4827.13,"text":"好 謝謝王委員"},{"start":4827.13,"end":4829.13,"text":"再請王信旭委員"},{"start":4829.13,"end":4832.13,"text":"等一下 我個人是認為說"},{"start":4832.13,"end":4837.13,"text":"如果經過從原來的家庭經濟狀況"},{"start":4837.13,"end":4840.13,"text":"變成經濟情況的話"},{"start":4840.13,"end":4845.13,"text":"那能夠有效地去調整或者是討論以後"},{"start":4845.13,"end":4847.13,"text":"就不一定要保留"},{"start":4847.13,"end":4849.13,"text":"如果能夠大家得到共識的話"},{"start":4849.99,"end":4853.99,"text":"是 那現在就是如果從家庭經濟情況"},{"start":4853.99,"end":4855.99,"text":"修正為經濟情況"},{"start":4855.99,"end":4858.99,"text":"那剛剛署長所提到的 不管是個人的"},{"start":4858.99,"end":4861.99,"text":"或者是家庭的是不是也都有機會涵掛進來"},{"start":4861.99,"end":4863.99,"text":"有沒有機會在立法說明"},{"start":4863.99,"end":4866.99,"text":"把這個可能情形寫清楚"},{"start":4866.99,"end":4869.99,"text":"讓未來在處理的時候是有所依循"},{"start":4869.99,"end":4871.99,"text":"這樣的話是不是就能夠"},{"start":4871.99,"end":4875.99,"text":"大家有一定的共識讓他就能夠通過以上的意見 謝謝"},{"start":4875.99,"end":4878.99,"text":"好 王信旭委員這麼建議"},{"start":4878.99,"end":4879.99,"text":"各位的意見"},{"start":4884.94,"end":4886.94,"text":"剛剛昭治委員提出來的就是"},{"start":4886.94,"end":4889.94,"text":"個人經濟情況是一個很明確的"},{"start":4889.94,"end":4892.94,"text":"那本來是家庭經濟情況其實也是明確"},{"start":4892.94,"end":4896.94,"text":"結果兩個都拿掉然後變成經濟情況"},{"start":4896.94,"end":4899.94,"text":"我個人覺得很模糊"},{"start":4899.94,"end":4903.94,"text":"所以這個應該要再好好討論"},{"start":4903.94,"end":4906.94,"text":"因為如果身上團體要的是個人"},{"start":4906.94,"end":4908.94,"text":"他特別強調是個人經濟情況"},{"start":4908.94,"end":4911.94,"text":"但主管機關又不放進去"},{"start":4911.94,"end":4914.94,"text":"那原來的家庭經濟情況又是拿掉"},{"start":4914.94,"end":4917.94,"text":"我個人覺得這樣的修法方向是還蠻模糊的"},{"start":4917.94,"end":4922.94,"text":"除非你要在文字裡面寫得很明確說"},{"start":4923.58,"end":4930.58,"text":"這樣的經濟情況就是可以依個人的經濟情況來審核"},{"start":4930.58,"end":4932.58,"text":"要把很明確的文字放進去"},{"start":4932.58,"end":4934.58,"text":"如果沒有我是覺得大家再想想"},{"start":4934.58,"end":4937.58,"text":"應該是修法要明確一點比較好吧"},{"start":4937.58,"end":4939.58,"text":"到時候各自解釋爭議更多"},{"start":4940.09,"end":4942.09,"text":"好謝謝再請換位委員"},{"start":4942.75,"end":4945.75,"text":"我記得我們之前在委員會討論的時候"},{"start":4945.75,"end":4948.75,"text":"原本是家庭經濟嘛"},{"start":4948.75,"end":4950.75,"text":"那時候已經討論了一回合"},{"start":4950.75,"end":4954.75,"text":"拿掉家庭的意思其實就還蠻清楚了"},{"start":4954.75,"end":4957.75,"text":"那就是個人"},{"start":4960.3,"end":4965.3,"text":"就是在文字在這個說明中可不可以就把它寫了"},{"start":4965.3,"end":4969.3,"text":"因為我們當時社會福利法其實就有訂到說"},{"start":4969.3,"end":4972.3,"text":"第七條就是以人為本"},{"start":4972.3,"end":4974.3,"text":"那當時就是說以人為本"},{"start":4974.3,"end":4976.3,"text":"那家庭只是一個支持的角度"},{"start":4976.3,"end":4978.3,"text":"所以如果衛福部這邊"},{"start":4978.3,"end":4983.3,"text":"因為你們當時同意把家庭經濟情況改成經濟情況"},{"start":4984.15,"end":4986.15,"text":"應該就是個人的意思吧"},{"start":4986.91,"end":4988.91,"text":"不是嗎不然為什麼要拿掉家庭"},{"start":4988.91,"end":4989.91,"text":"是啊"},{"start":4989.91,"end":4990.91,"text":"這樣個人"},{"start":4995.71,"end":4999.71,"text":"衛福部可不可以說明一下"},{"start":4999.71,"end":5002.71,"text":"你不願意你不願意你不願意放在說明文字"},{"start":5002.71,"end":5005.71,"text":"至少可以說服大家也是一種定義方式"},{"start":5005.71,"end":5008.71,"text":"因為從家庭經濟我們是希望說保留少一點"},{"start":5008.71,"end":5010.71,"text":"大家有共識的過多一點"},{"start":5010.71,"end":5012.71,"text":"至少這樣討論是有進展的"},{"start":5012.71,"end":5013.71,"text":"以上"},{"start":5015.31,"end":5016.31,"text":"來"},{"start":5016.18,"end":5017.18,"text":"請首長回應"},{"start":5018.15,"end":5019.15,"text":"簡單而言"},{"start":5020.56,"end":5023.56,"text":"我們當時把我們會建議把家庭拿掉"},{"start":5023.56,"end":5026.56,"text":"簡單的說就是經濟情況可以考慮"},{"start":5026.56,"end":5028.56,"text":"範圍可以把它更擴大"},{"start":5028.56,"end":5030.56,"text":"就是不一定限於家庭"},{"start":5030.56,"end":5032.56,"text":"那當然如果個人的部分有需要"},{"start":5032.56,"end":5034.56,"text":"也是可以納入考慮"},{"start":5034.56,"end":5036.56,"text":"但是如果只寫個人的話"},{"start":5036.56,"end":5038.56,"text":"那變成家庭就不納入考慮"},{"start":5038.56,"end":5040.56,"text":"所以我們是建議這個部分"},{"start":5040.56,"end":5044.56,"text":"用經濟情況的部分是可以從寬從更廣的角度"},{"start":5044.56,"end":5047.56,"text":"來去到時候將來在需求評估的時候"},{"start":5047.56,"end":5049.56,"text":"可以有更寬廣的評估空間"},{"start":5049.56,"end":5050.56,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5051.12,"end":5052.12,"text":"這無力了"},{"start":5053.64,"end":5055.64,"text":"然後第二項是在呼應第一項"},{"start":5056.22,"end":5059.22,"text":"那基本上他把家裡拿掉其實是更寬的"},{"start":5060.47,"end":5061.47,"text":"這個登天的一個"},{"start":5062.95,"end":5063.95,"text":"這個溫座了"},{"start":5066.06,"end":5067.06,"text":"陳朝書委"},{"start":5067.06,"end":5069.06,"text":"不好意思文字邏輯上"},{"start":5069.7,"end":5071.7,"text":"你把它放寬就是變嚴"},{"start":5071.7,"end":5073.7,"text":"因為表示這個人他各種來源"},{"start":5073.7,"end":5076.7,"text":"你都要算數他才可以用"},{"start":5077.43,"end":5078.43,"text":"跟我想法"},{"start":5078.43,"end":5080.43,"text":"除非你們覺得我幾天前"},{"start":5080.43,"end":5082.43,"text":"那一摔整個大腦摔壞掉"},{"start":5082.43,"end":5084.43,"text":"我今天"},{"start":5085.04,"end":5087.04,"text":"你剛剛說範圍變寬"},{"start":5087.04,"end":5088.04,"text":"更模糊"},{"start":5088.04,"end":5091.04,"text":"就是表示如果你隔壁或者你地區社區"},{"start":5091.04,"end":5092.04,"text":"有人可以支援你"},{"start":5092.04,"end":5093.04,"text":"你就"},{"start":5093.97,"end":5094.97,"text":"不能再受賄"},{"start":5094.97,"end":5097.97,"text":"家庭已經夠窄了"},{"start":5099.54,"end":5101.54,"text":"家庭你也不能要求家庭成員要養你"},{"start":5101.54,"end":5102.54,"text":"要照顧你"},{"start":5103.82,"end":5104.82,"text":"所以你看"},{"start":5104.82,"end":5105.82,"text":"所以署長"},{"start":5105.82,"end":5106.82,"text":"你看我"},{"start":5106.82,"end":5108.82,"text":"你看一個文字解釋真的是各自表"},{"start":5108.82,"end":5110.82,"text":"真的是各自表述"},{"start":5111.23,"end":5112.23,"text":"這個"},{"start":5112.23,"end":5113.23,"text":"這個"},{"start":5113.23,"end":5114.23,"text":"給大家再看一下好不好"},{"start":5115.52,"end":5117.52,"text":"我宣讀一下"},{"start":5117.9,"end":5118.9,"text":"第七條"},{"start":5120.16,"end":5121.16,"text":"署長我這樣看"},{"start":5121.16,"end":5122.16,"text":"這樣講"},{"start":5122.16,"end":5123.16,"text":"你們看"},{"start":5123.16,"end":5125.16,"text":"池峽市縣市主管機關"},{"start":5125.16,"end":5128.16,"text":"應予取得衛生主管機關"},{"start":5128.16,"end":5130.16,"text":"所核轉之身心障礙"},{"start":5130.16,"end":5132.16,"text":"鑑定報告後"},{"start":5133.57,"end":5136.57,"text":"籌組專業團隊進行需求評估"},{"start":5138.42,"end":5140.42,"text":"第二項是要講前項"},{"start":5140.42,"end":5142.42,"text":"前項需求評估"},{"start":5144.54,"end":5146.54,"text":"陳教授你聽一下"},{"start":5146.54,"end":5148.54,"text":"因為我們在說第一項"},{"start":5148.54,"end":5150.54,"text":"現在第一項是你呼應第一項"},{"start":5150.54,"end":5152.54,"text":"第一項是你說這樣"},{"start":5152.54,"end":5154.54,"text":"第二項才說要呼應第一項"},{"start":5154.54,"end":5156.54,"text":"前項需求評估"},{"start":5156.54,"end":5159.54,"text":"應予身心障礙者障礙列別"},{"start":5159.54,"end":5163.54,"text":"程度經濟情況照顧服務需求"},{"start":5164.08,"end":5169.08,"text":"生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等因素為之"},{"start":5169.08,"end":5172.08,"text":"籌組專業團隊進行需求評估"},{"start":5172.08,"end":5174.08,"text":"前項需求評估應予以下"},{"start":5175.46,"end":5177.46,"text":"那這個怎麼會有魔物"},{"start":5177.75,"end":5179.75,"text":"我懶惰你們的"},{"start":5179.56,"end":5180.56,"text":"意思"},{"start":5180.56,"end":5183.56,"text":"剛剛蜀的解釋讓我嚇到了"},{"start":5184.76,"end":5188.76,"text":"他把這個經濟的support這個需求"},{"start":5188.76,"end":5191.76,"text":"他的背景範圍能夠支援他的"},{"start":5191.76,"end":5194.76,"text":"用好多個整個社會都算進來"},{"start":5195.3,"end":5197.3,"text":"那其實你們在做其他的社會資源的時候"},{"start":5197.3,"end":5199.3,"text":"今天你放在這邊讓他們安心"},{"start":5199.3,"end":5202.3,"text":"那你們在做社會補助的時候"},{"start":5202.3,"end":5205.3,"text":"你可以本來就有一些評估方法"},{"start":5205.3,"end":5207.3,"text":"他剛剛講的意思說"},{"start":5207.3,"end":5209.3,"text":"本來你這個家庭好像有這個東西"},{"start":5209.3,"end":5212.3,"text":"看你你家有錢你就可以照顧到"},{"start":5212.3,"end":5216.3,"text":"現在是社會有錢就可以照顧到你"},{"start":5216.3,"end":5218.3,"text":"今天我們正立這個身障法"},{"start":5218.3,"end":5220.3,"text":"對他們本身的感覺是"},{"start":5220.58,"end":5223.58,"text":"不確定性更高"},{"start":5224.21,"end":5226.21,"text":"我補充一下這個趙偉"},{"start":5226.21,"end":5228.21,"text":"我想要請問一下是不是這個狀況"},{"start":5228.21,"end":5230.21,"text":"因為你這裡說是需求評估"},{"start":5230.21,"end":5232.21,"text":"那為什麼要評估需求"},{"start":5232.21,"end":5234.21,"text":"很大一個程度就是我們政府"},{"start":5234.21,"end":5236.21,"text":"或是我們的社會福利要怎麼支持他"},{"start":5236.21,"end":5239.21,"text":"可是如果你用經濟情況的話"},{"start":5239.21,"end":5242.21,"text":"那你就是可能你有評估家庭"},{"start":5242.21,"end":5243.21,"text":"又評估個人"},{"start":5243.21,"end":5245.21,"text":"那你的個人的狀況可能就會被"},{"start":5245.21,"end":5247.21,"text":"壓稀釋掉"},{"start":5247.21,"end":5249.21,"text":"你只要說他的家庭看起來還不錯"},{"start":5249.21,"end":5251.21,"text":"他的家庭狀況比較好"},{"start":5251.21,"end":5252.21,"text":"所以我就是需求評估"},{"start":5252.21,"end":5254.21,"text":"就給你說你沒有那麼需要"},{"start":5254.21,"end":5256.21,"text":"我在想這個陳昭之委員的意思"},{"start":5256.21,"end":5259.21,"text":"還有障礙團體的意思就是這樣"},{"start":5259.21,"end":5261.21,"text":"那如果你只是鎖定這個個人"},{"start":5261.21,"end":5263.21,"text":"你就看他這個個人的整個"},{"start":5263.21,"end":5264.21,"text":"個人的狀況"},{"start":5264.21,"end":5267.21,"text":"你就不會把其他的因素放進來考量"},{"start":5267.21,"end":5268.21,"text":"你只要說這個人他真的有需要"},{"start":5268.21,"end":5270.21,"text":"他個人有需要你就不會說"},{"start":5270.21,"end":5272.21,"text":"他可能因為兄弟姐妹或是爸爸媽媽比較"},{"start":5272.21,"end":5274.21,"text":"這個經濟狀況比較好"},{"start":5274.21,"end":5277.21,"text":"所以我就說你不能有這個需求"},{"start":5277.21,"end":5279.21,"text":"我在想是不是這個意思"},{"start":5279.21,"end":5281.21,"text":"那我也可以請這個社家署署長"},{"start":5281.21,"end":5284.21,"text":"跟昭文你覺得我用這個具體的案例"},{"start":5284.21,"end":5285.21,"text":"是不是"},{"start":5285.82,"end":5287.82,"text":"可以回應說為什麼他們堅持要"},{"start":5287.82,"end":5289.82,"text":"個人經濟情況這件事情"},{"start":5290.98,"end":5292.98,"text":"請署長"},{"start":5292.98,"end":5294.98,"text":"謝謝委員的詢詢"},{"start":5294.98,"end":5298.98,"text":"其實這邊在談我們這一項裡面去談說"},{"start":5298.98,"end":5300.98,"text":"評估的內容的時候"},{"start":5300.98,"end":5302.98,"text":"其實並不是評估的標準"},{"start":5302.98,"end":5304.98,"text":"而是說在評估的時候"},{"start":5304.98,"end":5306.98,"text":"要考量到這個身心障礙者"},{"start":5306.98,"end":5308.98,"text":"他比較全面性的情況"},{"start":5308.98,"end":5312.98,"text":"那當然評估的到時候在評估的情況的時候"},{"start":5312.98,"end":5315.98,"text":"每一個個案都會有他自己的情形"},{"start":5315.98,"end":5317.98,"text":"那有的身心障礙者是自己住"},{"start":5317.98,"end":5319.98,"text":"有的身心障礙者會跟家人住"},{"start":5319.98,"end":5321.98,"text":"那家裡面的情形有的狀況"},{"start":5321.98,"end":5322.98,"text":"也許設定條件會好"},{"start":5322.98,"end":5324.98,"text":"有的設定條件不一定這麼好"},{"start":5324.98,"end":5327.98,"text":"那麼在總體評估的過程裡面"},{"start":5327.98,"end":5329.98,"text":"這是在評估上面能夠去"},{"start":5329.98,"end":5331.98,"text":"更完整的去關照到"},{"start":5331.98,"end":5334.98,"text":"身心障礙者他的各種各樣的情況"},{"start":5334.98,"end":5339.98,"text":"那這個其實只是在要去注意的項目"},{"start":5339.98,"end":5341.98,"text":"那這邊其實在這個條文裡面"},{"start":5341.98,"end":5344.98,"text":"並沒有說因為有這些信物納進去"},{"start":5344.98,"end":5346.98,"text":"他的評估就會過"},{"start":5346.98,"end":5350.98,"text":"或者是哪一些項目可以得到相關的服務"},{"start":5350.98,"end":5352.98,"text":"這邊標準的部分"},{"start":5352.98,"end":5354.98,"text":"其實這個現行的文字裡面"},{"start":5354.98,"end":5357.98,"text":"其實並沒有特別去觸及到這樣子的概念"},{"start":5357.98,"end":5360.98,"text":"只是能夠讓評估的過程"},{"start":5360.98,"end":5363.98,"text":"能夠完整性能夠去更好"},{"start":5363.98,"end":5365.98,"text":"那所以從這樣的角度去看的時候"},{"start":5365.98,"end":5367.98,"text":"那我們也這個"},{"start":5369.54,"end":5372.54,"text":"尊重委員當先前在審查過程裡面的一些想法"},{"start":5372.54,"end":5374.54,"text":"我們想說這個經濟狀況的部分"},{"start":5374.54,"end":5376.54,"text":"是不是也能夠從寬的"},{"start":5376.54,"end":5378.54,"text":"要從一個更完整評估的角度"},{"start":5378.54,"end":5381.54,"text":"能夠理解個案的自己完整的狀況"},{"start":5381.54,"end":5383.54,"text":"那我們建議是不是可以考慮"},{"start":5383.54,"end":5385.54,"text":"是看要不要把家庭這兩個字先刪掉"},{"start":5385.54,"end":5386.54,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":5387.59,"end":5389.59,"text":"主席我們覺得乾脆先保留好了"},{"start":5389.59,"end":5393.59,"text":"這看起來認定上面是沒有辦法溝通清楚的"},{"start":5395.44,"end":5397.44,"text":"沒關係啊,好,謝謝"},{"start":5398.7,"end":5400.7,"text":"好,第七條我們就先保留"},{"start":5401.79,"end":5403.79,"text":"來,接下來"},{"start":5403.56,"end":5405.56,"text":"續審我們第十六條"},{"start":5407.35,"end":5409.35,"text":"那十六條有這個進戶的"},{"start":5409.35,"end":5411.35,"text":"進來要先宣讀"},{"start":5411.35,"end":5413.35,"text":"有沒有印給大家"},{"start":5414.16,"end":5416.16,"text":"好"},{"start":5415.84,"end":5417.84,"text":"那我先宣讀"},{"start":5424.38,"end":5426.38,"text":"好,第十六條"},{"start":5426.38,"end":5428.38,"text":"我們就先宣讀"},{"start":5428.38,"end":5430.38,"text":"有沒有印給大家"},{"start":5430.38,"end":5432.38,"text":"好,第十六條"},{"start":5432.38,"end":5434.38,"text":"我們就先宣讀"},{"start":5434.38,"end":5436.38,"text":"有沒有印給大家"},{"start":5436.38,"end":5438.38,"text":"好,第十六條"},{"start":5438.38,"end":5440.38,"text":"我們就先宣讀"},{"start":5440.38,"end":5442.38,"text":"有沒有印給大家"},{"start":5442.38,"end":5444.38,"text":"好,第十六條"},{"start":5444.38,"end":5446.38,"text":"我們就先宣讀"},{"start":5446.38,"end":5448.38,"text":"有沒有印給大家"},{"start":5448.38,"end":5450.38,"text":"好,第十六條"},{"start":5450.38,"end":5452.38,"text":"我們就先宣讀"},{"start":5428.74,"end":5430.74,"text":"沒有進戶的進來嗎"},{"start":5438.29,"end":5440.29,"text":"那我們就來處理第十六條"},{"start":5441.31,"end":5443.31,"text":"他們還沒有說明喔"},{"start":5443.31,"end":5445.31,"text":"要先請他們說明,然後再"},{"start":5445.31,"end":5447.31,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":5447.31,"end":5449.31,"text":"那請,署長"},{"start":5449.31,"end":5451.31,"text":"是,草案第十六條的部分"},{"start":5451.31,"end":5453.31,"text":"先前在整個討論過程裡面"},{"start":5453.31,"end":5455.31,"text":"大概討論的焦點"},{"start":5455.31,"end":5457.31,"text":"會聚焦在"},{"start":5457.31,"end":5459.31,"text":"有關在第一項的"},{"start":5459.31,"end":5461.31,"text":"這個"},{"start":5461.31,"end":5463.31,"text":"歧視的"},{"start":5463.31,"end":5465.31,"text":"對不起,在有關歧視的"},{"start":5465.31,"end":5467.31,"text":"的概念的內涵"},{"start":5467.31,"end":5469.31,"text":"那有多位委員的"},{"start":5469.31,"end":5471.31,"text":"提案的內容,在提案的第三"},{"start":5471.31,"end":5473.31,"text":"在第十六條第三項"},{"start":5473.31,"end":5475.31,"text":"有增列一個條文"},{"start":5475.31,"end":5477.31,"text":"就是第一項所稱的歧視"},{"start":5477.31,"end":5479.31,"text":"是包含直接歧視、間接歧視"},{"start":5479.31,"end":5481.31,"text":"拒絕合理"},{"start":5481.31,"end":5483.31,"text":"拒絕提供合理調整以及"},{"start":5483.31,"end":5485.31,"text":"騷擾,那它和行政院版"},{"start":5485.31,"end":5487.31,"text":"的提案比較大的不同的地方"},{"start":5487.31,"end":5489.31,"text":"在於我們行政院"},{"start":5489.31,"end":5491.31,"text":"版的概念是,我們"},{"start":5491.31,"end":5493.31,"text":"大概參考CRPD"},{"start":5493.31,"end":5495.31,"text":"一般對於這個"},{"start":5495.31,"end":5497.31,"text":"這個相關的概念"},{"start":5497.31,"end":5499.31,"text":"現在現行是把歧視"},{"start":5499.31,"end":5501.31,"text":"和騷擾把它分開"},{"start":5501.31,"end":5503.31,"text":"它是兩個獨立的概念"},{"start":5503.31,"end":5505.31,"text":"這是第一點,那第二個"},{"start":5505.31,"end":5507.31,"text":"這個跟委員的版本"},{"start":5507.31,"end":5509.31,"text":"比較不一樣的地方是,拒絕提供"},{"start":5509.31,"end":5511.31,"text":"合理調整,是否要"},{"start":5511.31,"end":5513.31,"text":"納進來作為"},{"start":5513.31,"end":5515.31,"text":"這個歧視的定義"},{"start":5515.31,"end":5517.31,"text":"考慮到這個有關"},{"start":5517.31,"end":5519.31,"text":"在拒絕合理,提供合理"},{"start":5519.31,"end":5521.31,"text":"調整,其實合理調整"},{"start":5521.31,"end":5523.31,"text":"其實是一個,對國內來講"},{"start":5523.31,"end":5525.31,"text":"是一個相對比較新"},{"start":5525.31,"end":5527.31,"text":"還比較不成熟的概念"},{"start":5527.31,"end":5529.31,"text":"那尤其會涉及到"},{"start":5529.31,"end":5531.31,"text":"這個合理調整是一個個案性的"},{"start":5531.31,"end":5533.31,"text":"調整,而不是制度或者"},{"start":5533.31,"end":5535.31,"text":"法規上的通案性處理"},{"start":5535.31,"end":5537.31,"text":"那所以在調整的過程裡面"},{"start":5537.31,"end":5539.31,"text":"調整的義務方,應該要如何"},{"start":5539.31,"end":5541.31,"text":"去操作,調整的過程"},{"start":5541.31,"end":5543.31,"text":"應該要如何的來協商等等"},{"start":5543.31,"end":5545.31,"text":"都還國內需要慢慢"},{"start":5545.31,"end":5547.31,"text":"需要一點時間,來做法規"},{"start":5547.31,"end":5549.31,"text":"的調適,所以行政院的"},{"start":5549.31,"end":5551.31,"text":"版本,我們是希望"},{"start":5551.31,"end":5553.31,"text":"透過一個,一年"},{"start":5553.31,"end":5555.31,"text":"有一年的緩衝期"},{"start":5555.31,"end":5557.31,"text":"由中央政府來定立"},{"start":5557.31,"end":5559.31,"text":"合理調整,去定定指引"},{"start":5559.31,"end":5561.31,"text":"再由各個目的私立主管機關"},{"start":5561.31,"end":5563.31,"text":"用兩年的時間"},{"start":5563.31,"end":5565.31,"text":"然後針對"},{"start":5565.31,"end":5567.31,"text":"參照指引的內容,去定"},{"start":5567.31,"end":5569.31,"text":"合理調整,後面整個協商跟處理的流程"},{"start":5569.31,"end":5571.31,"text":"也就是讓國內"},{"start":5571.31,"end":5573.31,"text":"有一個三年的調適期"},{"start":5573.31,"end":5575.31,"text":"讓所有要去納入"},{"start":5575.31,"end":5577.31,"text":"要去做"},{"start":5577.31,"end":5579.31,"text":"合理調整的事業"},{"start":5579.31,"end":5581.31,"text":"能夠有一個合理的時間"},{"start":5581.31,"end":5583.31,"text":"能夠來做這個合理調整"},{"start":5583.31,"end":5585.31,"text":"來適應合理調整這個新的制度"},{"start":5585.31,"end":5587.31,"text":"那如果我們現在就把"},{"start":5587.31,"end":5589.31,"text":"拒絕提供合理調整"},{"start":5589.31,"end":5591.31,"text":"納到歧視的定義裡面去的話"},{"start":5591.31,"end":5593.31,"text":"等於會"},{"start":5593.31,"end":5595.31,"text":"我們國內會把這樣的一個"},{"start":5595.31,"end":5597.31,"text":"國內的調適期間"},{"start":5597.31,"end":5599.31,"text":"有可能會被壓縮掉"},{"start":5599.31,"end":5601.31,"text":"那麼對於我們比較擔心的是"},{"start":5601.31,"end":5603.31,"text":"對於國內相關"},{"start":5603.31,"end":5605.31,"text":"要去適用的行業"},{"start":5605.31,"end":5607.31,"text":"那會不會有衝擊,相對來說"},{"start":5607.31,"end":5609.31,"text":"會比較大,或者是比較急"},{"start":5609.31,"end":5611.31,"text":"那可能來不及適應新訂定的法規"},{"start":5611.31,"end":5613.31,"text":"那這個是我們比較大的"},{"start":5613.31,"end":5615.31,"text":"顧慮,所以我們會比較建議"},{"start":5615.31,"end":5617.31,"text":"如果在可能的情況下"},{"start":5617.31,"end":5619.31,"text":"是不是有對於"},{"start":5619.31,"end":5621.31,"text":"拒絕提供合理的調整的部分"},{"start":5621.31,"end":5623.31,"text":"能夠參考行政院版的"},{"start":5623.31,"end":5625.31,"text":"一個建議"},{"start":5625.31,"end":5627.31,"text":"行政院版的提案的內容"},{"start":5627.31,"end":5629.31,"text":"能夠維持一個有"},{"start":5629.31,"end":5631.31,"text":"調適期這樣的一個設計"},{"start":5631.31,"end":5633.31,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":5633.6,"end":5635.6,"text":"好,謝謝,請王毓民委員"},{"start":5636.33,"end":5638.33,"text":"好,這個第十六條其實是"},{"start":5638.33,"end":5640.33,"text":"身心障礙朋友在這次修法當中"},{"start":5640.33,"end":5642.33,"text":"他們非常"},{"start":5642.33,"end":5644.33,"text":"關注的一個條文"},{"start":5644.33,"end":5646.33,"text":"那在委員會,事實上我們針對"},{"start":5646.33,"end":5648.33,"text":"第十六條"},{"start":5648.33,"end":5650.33,"text":"拒絕"},{"start":5650.33,"end":5652.33,"text":"合理調整"},{"start":5652.33,"end":5654.33,"text":"這個及時啟示"},{"start":5654.33,"end":5656.33,"text":"其實有非常多的討論"},{"start":5656.33,"end":5658.33,"text":"但是一直到現在"},{"start":5658.33,"end":5660.33,"text":"我想現在有蠻多身心障礙朋友"},{"start":5660.33,"end":5662.33,"text":"他就在群賢樓"},{"start":5662.33,"end":5664.33,"text":"的門口"},{"start":5664.33,"end":5666.33,"text":"他們的訴求還是很希望"},{"start":5666.33,"end":5668.33,"text":"可以把拒絕"},{"start":5668.33,"end":5670.33,"text":"提供身心障礙者"},{"start":5670.33,"end":5672.33,"text":"合理調整者及構成"},{"start":5672.33,"end":5674.33,"text":"啟示,亦不得對其家屬"},{"start":5674.33,"end":5676.33,"text":"有啟示之對待"},{"start":5676.33,"end":5678.33,"text":"這樣的一個文字"},{"start":5678.33,"end":5680.33,"text":"還是希望可以放入"},{"start":5680.33,"end":5682.33,"text":"那另外他們希望"},{"start":5682.33,"end":5684.33,"text":"可以成立這個針對"},{"start":5684.33,"end":5686.33,"text":"身心障礙者啟示的委員會"},{"start":5686.33,"end":5688.33,"text":"可以具體的來處理"},{"start":5688.33,"end":5690.33,"text":"這一些啟示的問題"},{"start":5690.33,"end":5692.33,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":5692.33,"end":5694.33,"text":"這些身障朋友他們的訴求"},{"start":5694.33,"end":5696.33,"text":"其實是蠻合理的"},{"start":5696.33,"end":5698.33,"text":"大家知道,其實"},{"start":5698.33,"end":5700.33,"text":"雖然台灣我們進步,但是這個社會"},{"start":5700.33,"end":5702.33,"text":"我們對於身心障礙者"},{"start":5702.33,"end":5704.33,"text":"的這一種"},{"start":5704.33,"end":5706.33,"text":"有形或無形的啟示,坦白講"},{"start":5706.33,"end":5708.33,"text":"是存在的,甚至到他的家屬"},{"start":5708.33,"end":5710.33,"text":"那既然這一次"},{"start":5710.33,"end":5712.33,"text":"我們已經要踏出這一步"},{"start":5712.33,"end":5714.33,"text":"就是說我們認為"},{"start":5714.33,"end":5716.33,"text":"應該這個工作單位要有一些"},{"start":5716.33,"end":5718.33,"text":"合理調整"},{"start":5718.33,"end":5720.33,"text":"坦白講我覺得這個是我們很大的"},{"start":5720.33,"end":5722.33,"text":"一個進步,那既然我們要做了"},{"start":5722.33,"end":5724.33,"text":"剛剛署長"},{"start":5724.33,"end":5726.33,"text":"當然有提到說"},{"start":5726.33,"end":5728.33,"text":"我們這麼多各行各業"},{"start":5728.33,"end":5730.33,"text":"大家調試調整"},{"start":5730.33,"end":5732.33,"text":"可能整個需要三年的時間"},{"start":5732.33,"end":5734.33,"text":"所以你是希望分階段"},{"start":5734.33,"end":5736.33,"text":"才來達到"},{"start":5736.33,"end":5738.33,"text":"這樣子的一個作用"},{"start":5738.33,"end":5740.33,"text":"但是要對我們台灣"},{"start":5740.33,"end":5742.33,"text":"也要有信心"},{"start":5742.33,"end":5744.33,"text":"就是說我們很多的觀念"},{"start":5744.33,"end":5746.33,"text":"其實也在進步"},{"start":5746.33,"end":5748.33,"text":"那我們的做法"},{"start":5748.33,"end":5750.33,"text":"我覺得台灣是一個"},{"start":5750.33,"end":5752.33,"text":"就是說我們在適應一些變動"},{"start":5752.33,"end":5754.33,"text":"或者是一些彈性上面"},{"start":5754.33,"end":5756.33,"text":"我們相對我們的能量"},{"start":5756.33,"end":5758.33,"text":"各方面其實也是比較大的"},{"start":5758.33,"end":5760.33,"text":"所以放進來"},{"start":5760.33,"end":5762.33,"text":"你說會造成"},{"start":5762.33,"end":5764.33,"text":"很大的一個影響"},{"start":5764.33,"end":5766.33,"text":"可能會做不到"},{"start":5766.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署長要不要先回應"},{"start":6419.01,"end":6421.01,"text":"這個"},{"start":6420.88,"end":6422.88,"text":"根據在修正動議的內容"},{"start":6422.88,"end":6424.88,"text":"那當然就是"},{"start":6424.88,"end":6426.88,"text":"跟現在的原來"},{"start":6426.88,"end":6428.88,"text":"提案行政院版的"},{"start":6428.88,"end":6430.88,"text":"版本提案內容大概"},{"start":6430.88,"end":6432.88,"text":"比較不一樣的地方會包"},{"start":6432.88,"end":6434.88,"text":"包在幾個面向第一個是"},{"start":6434.88,"end":6436.88,"text":"拒絕提供合理"},{"start":6436.88,"end":6438.88,"text":"這個合理調整的部分"},{"start":6438.88,"end":6440.88,"text":"那他會被視為是歧視這是第一點"},{"start":6440.88,"end":6442.88,"text":"那第二點是"},{"start":6442.88,"end":6444.88,"text":"這個部分的話同時"},{"start":6444.88,"end":6446.88,"text":"那這樣的效果呢就是"},{"start":6446.88,"end":6448.88,"text":"他會牽動到後面的"},{"start":6448.88,"end":6450.88,"text":"那未來在"},{"start":6450.88,"end":6452.88,"text":"以這個如果有歧視的行為"},{"start":6452.88,"end":6454.88,"text":"的時候那他依照這個"},{"start":6454.88,"end":6456.88,"text":"現在修正草案的內容"},{"start":6456.88,"end":6458.88,"text":"他會只要構成歧視會有一個"},{"start":6458.88,"end":6460.88,"text":"十萬到六十萬的行政罰款"},{"start":6460.88,"end":6462.88,"text":"同時依照這一條"},{"start":6462.88,"end":6464.88,"text":"最後一項的規定"},{"start":6464.88,"end":6466.88,"text":"他會同時要去負擔民事上的"},{"start":6466.88,"end":6468.88,"text":"損害賠償責任"},{"start":6468.88,"end":6470.88,"text":"那這個如果是照這個"},{"start":6470.88,"end":6472.88,"text":"條文現在這樣去寫的時候"},{"start":6472.88,"end":6474.88,"text":"我們會面臨到第一個是"},{"start":6474.88,"end":6476.88,"text":"在國外的立法立上"},{"start":6476.88,"end":6480.88,"text":"那在比較我們查到的一些國家的國外立法立上"},{"start":6480.88,"end":6482.88,"text":"通常對於合理調整的部分"},{"start":6482.88,"end":6484.88,"text":"因為他合理調整"},{"start":6484.88,"end":6486.88,"text":"他並不是一個制度性的"},{"start":6486.88,"end":6488.88,"text":"一個統一性的調整內容"},{"start":6488.88,"end":6490.88,"text":"不像這個也許不像"},{"start":6490.88,"end":6492.88,"text":"我們無障礙的規定"},{"start":6492.88,"end":6494.88,"text":"就是我統一要設階梯"},{"start":6494.88,"end":6496.88,"text":"斜坡板等等"},{"start":6496.88,"end":6498.88,"text":"他是針對每一個人"},{"start":6498.88,"end":6500.88,"text":"他的每一個聲障者的需要"},{"start":6500.88,"end":6502.88,"text":"去做個別性的調整"},{"start":6502.88,"end":6504.88,"text":"因此在我們查到的一些"},{"start":6504.88,"end":6506.88,"text":"國家立法立裡面"},{"start":6506.88,"end":6508.88,"text":"通常對於沒有做合理調整的部分"},{"start":6508.88,"end":6510.88,"text":"我們認為他是對他的"},{"start":6510.88,"end":6512.88,"text":"這個民事上的侵害"},{"start":6512.88,"end":6514.88,"text":"處理的比較多"},{"start":6514.88,"end":6516.88,"text":"比較沒有用到對於行政"},{"start":6516.88,"end":6518.88,"text":"用行政法的部分去處理"},{"start":6518.88,"end":6520.88,"text":"這樣沒有做合理調整的情況"},{"start":6520.88,"end":6522.88,"text":"這是我們所查到的第一個"},{"start":6522.88,"end":6524.88,"text":"立法立的部分"},{"start":6524.88,"end":6526.88,"text":"那第二個是如果以現在的"},{"start":6526.88,"end":6528.88,"text":"條文的內容來做後續處理的話"},{"start":6528.88,"end":6530.88,"text":"因為我們原來在設計上面"},{"start":6530.88,"end":6532.88,"text":"我們希望能夠讓國內"},{"start":6532.88,"end":6534.88,"text":"保留一個調適的期間"},{"start":6534.88,"end":6536.88,"text":"所以在條文裡面有一個"},{"start":6536.88,"end":6538.88,"text":"一年去訂定指引"},{"start":6538.88,"end":6540.88,"text":"兩年各個相關行業"},{"start":6540.88,"end":6542.88,"text":"去訂合理調整流程的制度"},{"start":6542.88,"end":6544.88,"text":"那現在條文的文字內容"},{"start":6544.88,"end":6546.88,"text":"這個可能會需要"},{"start":6546.88,"end":6548.88,"text":"做一個確認的地方是"},{"start":6548.88,"end":6550.88,"text":"這個如果在"},{"start":6550.88,"end":6552.88,"text":"現行第一條條文"},{"start":6552.88,"end":6554.88,"text":"直接就把它認定成"},{"start":6554.88,"end":6556.88,"text":"拒絕合理調整"},{"start":6556.88,"end":6558.88,"text":"是歧視的話"},{"start":6558.88,"end":6560.88,"text":"那他能不能夠同時去適用"},{"start":6560.88,"end":6562.88,"text":"那這個就是我們這邊的調適期的規定"},{"start":6562.88,"end":6564.88,"text":"那有可能"},{"start":6564.88,"end":6566.88,"text":"我們可能會需要確定一下這個"},{"start":6566.88,"end":6568.88,"text":"那不然的話就會變成"},{"start":6568.88,"end":6570.88,"text":"調整歸調整"},{"start":6570.88,"end":6572.88,"text":"還沒調整完就已經被認定成是歧視"},{"start":6572.88,"end":6574.88,"text":"那這樣的話可能對社會的衝擊"},{"start":6574.88,"end":6576.88,"text":"會相對來說會比較大一點"},{"start":6576.88,"end":6578.88,"text":"那這個是我們現在初步"},{"start":6578.88,"end":6580.88,"text":"看到條文"},{"start":6580.88,"end":6582.88,"text":"比較關心的地方"},{"start":6582.88,"end":6584.88,"text":"最後一個是我們召委所提出來的版本"},{"start":6584.88,"end":6586.88,"text":"裡面也提到有一個"},{"start":6586.88,"end":6588.88,"text":"現在會有一個身心障礙者歧視的"},{"start":6588.88,"end":6590.88,"text":"權益會的部分"},{"start":6590.88,"end":6592.88,"text":"那這個當然這個會需要"},{"start":6592.88,"end":6594.88,"text":"地方政府去做一個"},{"start":6594.88,"end":6596.88,"text":"去組織跟去處理"},{"start":6596.88,"end":6598.88,"text":"那我們會想到這個"},{"start":6598.88,"end":6600.88,"text":"第一個是現行的在"},{"start":6600.88,"end":6602.88,"text":"我們這一次在立法院審理中的"},{"start":6602.88,"end":6604.88,"text":"這個身心障礙者"},{"start":6604.88,"end":6606.88,"text":"身權法的第十條"},{"start":6606.88,"end":6608.88,"text":"的部分其實已經有"},{"start":6608.88,"end":6610.88,"text":"已經有一個"},{"start":6610.88,"end":6612.88,"text":"對於身心障礙者權益保障機制"},{"start":6612.88,"end":6614.88,"text":"那在這個"},{"start":6614.88,"end":6616.88,"text":"每個縣市都要有一個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aime"},{"start":7761.89,"end":7763.89,"text":"因為你那個是一個"},{"start":7805.93,"end":7807.93,"text":"搞不好已經結束了"},{"start":7807.93,"end":7809.93,"text":"本來條例都已經不在了"},{"start":7816.99,"end":7818.99,"text":"現在已經結束了"},{"start":7831.43,"end":7832.43,"text":"我覺得你要"},{"start":7832.43,"end":7833.93,"text":"你通常過去最好測試"},{"start":7833.93,"end":7835.43,"text":"才知道什麼樣的結果"},{"start":7835.43,"end":7837.43,"text":"你要大家總共一定要比較清楚"},{"start":7839.5,"end":7840.5,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7840.97,"end":7841.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7846.59,"end":7848.59,"text":"好,那個休息時間到"},{"start":7850.23,"end":7851.23,"text":"請署長"},{"start":7852.63,"end":7853.63,"text":"署長跑去哪裡"},{"start":7854.53,"end":7855.53,"text":"好"},{"start":7855.38,"end":7856.38,"text":"好,再一"},{"start":7856.58,"end":7857.58,"text":"好"},{"start":7858.65,"end":7860.65,"text":"你是溝通完的時候才確定了"},{"start":7865.23,"end":7866.23,"text":"好"},{"start":7867.8,"end":7868.8,"text":"好,再見"},{"start":7870.57,"end":7872.57,"text":"16條可以發言嗎"},{"start":7872.57,"end":7873.57,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":7873.57,"end":7874.57,"text":"我先處理它"},{"start":7874.57,"end":7876.57,"text":"你是有跟大家溝通完之後"},{"start":7876.57,"end":7878.57,"text":"不然你再印那個東西"},{"start":7879.58,"end":7880.58,"text":"你印出來"},{"start":7880.58,"end":7881.58,"text":"大家都不同意"},{"start":7881.58,"end":7882.58,"text":"你還不是多印了"},{"start":7883.27,"end":7885.27,"text":"我們另外要節儉一點"},{"start":7887.32,"end":7889.32,"text":"好,請您也請召委"},{"start":7889.97,"end":7890.97,"text":"慎重發言"},{"start":7890.97,"end":7891.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7893.33,"end":7895.33,"text":"因為剛剛討論16條"},{"start":7895.33,"end":7897.33,"text":"那我們一定支持"},{"start":7897.33,"end":7899.33,"text":"因為ISRPD第二條"},{"start":7899.33,"end":7900.33,"text":"本來就是說"},{"start":7900.33,"end":7901.33,"text":"基於身心障礙的歧視"},{"start":7901.33,"end":7905.33,"text":"要明確包括拒絕提供合理調整"},{"start":7905.33,"end":7908.33,"text":"那合理調整真的不是恩惠"},{"start":7908.33,"end":7911.33,"text":"而是身心障礙者可以主張的權利"},{"start":7911.33,"end":7915.33,"text":"不過從辦在處理案例來看的話"},{"start":7915.84,"end":7916.84,"text":"就是說"},{"start":7916.84,"end":7919.84,"text":"合理調整並不是抽象或是遙遠的新概念"},{"start":7919.84,"end":7923.84,"text":"像台鐵輪椅席這個購票案"},{"start":7923.84,"end":7929.84,"text":"身心障礙的朋友去參與演唱會的購票的條件"},{"start":7929.84,"end":7930.84,"text":"都是在既有的制度"},{"start":7930.84,"end":7932.84,"text":"沒辦法回應個別需求"},{"start":7932.84,"end":7934.84,"text":"是要求義務人員要做出必要的調整"},{"start":7934.84,"end":7937.84,"text":"最後明知當事人有"},{"start":7938.33,"end":7940.33,"text":"身體上有具體的需求"},{"start":7940.33,"end":7944.33,"text":"可以僅以既有的規定系統限制或行政方便"},{"start":7944.33,"end":7946.33,"text":"為拒絕調整的話"},{"start":7946.33,"end":7948.33,"text":"那實際上就有可能使身心障礙者"},{"start":7948.33,"end":7951.33,"text":"無法跟其他人平等行使權利"},{"start":7951.33,"end":7954.33,"text":"所以這是合理調整制度很必要的處理的"},{"start":7954.33,"end":7957.33,"text":"不過我覺得這邊可能要去思考一個問題"},{"start":7957.33,"end":7961.33,"text":"憲法可是是不是應該設有一些過渡期"},{"start":7961.33,"end":7962.33,"text":"因為"},{"start":7963.28,"end":7965.28,"text":"能不能馬上都能夠銜接上"},{"start":7965.28,"end":7969.28,"text":"所以我覺得過渡期的這個部分一定要考量"},{"start":7969.28,"end":7970.28,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":7971.8,"end":7972.3,"text":"好"},{"start":7972.62,"end":7973.12,"text":"就夠"},{"start":7973.65,"end":7975.65,"text":"趙偉剛才沒有到補充一下那個"},{"start":7976.35,"end":7978.35,"text":"社交署剛剛是有回應"},{"start":7978.35,"end":7979.35,"text":"有三年"},{"start":7979.35,"end":7980.35,"text":"他們的版本是三年"},{"start":7980.35,"end":7983.35,"text":"所以就會左三年右三年"},{"start":7983.35,"end":7985.35,"text":"請署長回應"},{"start":7992.3,"end":7994.3,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7994.3,"end":7998.3,"text":"我們大概的剛才也謝謝委員的動議"},{"start":7998.3,"end":8001.3,"text":"我們大概想把這個條文的部分稍微"},{"start":8001.3,"end":8004.3,"text":"再做一點點小小的整理"},{"start":8004.3,"end":8008.3,"text":"那基本的構想大概也參照委員的這個"},{"start":8008.3,"end":8011.3,"text":"原來修正動議的文字"},{"start":8011.3,"end":8014.3,"text":"那因為唯一一個比較會"},{"start":8015.07,"end":8017.07,"text":"概念上比較不一樣的地方是"},{"start":8017.07,"end":8019.07,"text":"我們會把這個"},{"start":8019.07,"end":8023.07,"text":"我們會建議是不是就先暫時先噴納進來"},{"start":8023.07,"end":8027.07,"text":"有關在倒數動議裡面第二項的一個"},{"start":8027.07,"end":8028.07,"text":"歧視平議"},{"start":8028.07,"end":8031.07,"text":"縣市政府設置平議會的這樣的一個架構"},{"start":8031.07,"end":8033.07,"text":"那我們大概就是在現行的條"},{"start":8033.07,"end":8035.07,"text":"在這次修正條文裡面"},{"start":8035.07,"end":8037.07,"text":"前端的文字"},{"start":8037.07,"end":8039.07,"text":"我們還是維持對於"},{"start":8039.07,"end":8041.07,"text":"歧視和騷擾的處理"},{"start":8041.07,"end":8043.07,"text":"那我們會在後面這個"},{"start":8043.07,"end":8045.07,"text":"基本上的條文照"},{"start":8045.07,"end":8049.07,"text":"這個還是維持一個有過渡期的設計"},{"start":8049.07,"end":8051.07,"text":"在第四項和第五項"},{"start":8051.07,"end":8053.07,"text":"有一個訂定指引"},{"start":8053.07,"end":8058.07,"text":"看去給行業去訂定相關操作流程的一個過渡期"},{"start":8058.07,"end":8060.07,"text":"那麼到第六項的部分"},{"start":8060.07,"end":8063.07,"text":"我們去把這個參考委員的原來動議的部分"},{"start":8063.07,"end":8065.07,"text":"我們把文字放在第六項裡面"},{"start":8065.07,"end":8068.07,"text":"所以就是當這個聲音障礙者"},{"start":8068.07,"end":8070.07,"text":"去提出合理調整的時候"},{"start":8070.07,"end":8072.07,"text":"需要經過協商程序"},{"start":8072.07,"end":8074.07,"text":"如果是這個拒絕"},{"start":8074.07,"end":8076.07,"text":"一方面拒絕協商"},{"start":8076.07,"end":8078.07,"text":"這個在先前討論的時候"},{"start":8078.07,"end":8080.07,"text":"我們已經會單獨去訂罰則"},{"start":8080.07,"end":8082.07,"text":"那後段增列的部分就是"},{"start":8082.07,"end":8085.07,"text":"如果他在拒絕合理提供"},{"start":8085.07,"end":8088.07,"text":"提供身心障礙者合理調整"},{"start":8088.07,"end":8092.07,"text":"而且沒有辦法去證明這個調整措施會造成"},{"start":8092.07,"end":8095.07,"text":"不成比例或者過度負擔的話"},{"start":8095.07,"end":8098.07,"text":"那就會構成第一項的歧視"},{"start":8098.07,"end":8100.07,"text":"那他的效果呢"},{"start":8100.07,"end":8103.07,"text":"就會跟前面委員原來的動議"},{"start":8103.07,"end":8105.07,"text":"他的效果會是一致的"},{"start":8105.07,"end":8108.07,"text":"只是文字上面會稍微比較順一點"},{"start":8108.07,"end":8110.07,"text":"那對於這個認定是不是歧視"},{"start":8110.07,"end":8113.07,"text":"唯一的差別在於認定歧視的部分"},{"start":8113.07,"end":8117.07,"text":"我們建議是不是有可能回到現行"},{"start":8117.07,"end":8120.07,"text":"因為原來在這個第十條的部分"},{"start":8120.07,"end":8123.07,"text":"縣市政府已經會有一個這個維護"},{"start":8123.07,"end":8126.07,"text":"在地方政府都會有一個保護"},{"start":8126.07,"end":8128.07,"text":"有委員會或者是小組"},{"start":8128.07,"end":8130.07,"text":"來去處理相關歧視的事項"},{"start":8130.07,"end":8132.07,"text":"那這個處理的機制"},{"start":8132.07,"end":8135.07,"text":"就不另外增訂一個相關的審議會"},{"start":8135.07,"end":8139.07,"text":"而是回到地方政府既有的一個處理機制"},{"start":8139.07,"end":8141.07,"text":"那我們建議是不是有可能"},{"start":8141.07,"end":8143.07,"text":"透過這樣的方式來做一個處理"},{"start":8143.07,"end":8145.07,"text":"那文字上面有做一點調整"},{"start":8145.07,"end":8147.07,"text":"那請各位委員來參考"},{"start":8147.07,"end":8149.07,"text":"那文字的內容"},{"start":8149.07,"end":8151.07,"text":"文字的部分我們就認真印"},{"start":8153.59,"end":8155.59,"text":"好"},{"start":8154.67,"end":8156.67,"text":"這個"},{"start":8157.2,"end":8161.2,"text":"真的外面的身上團體朋友其實很辛苦"},{"start":8161.2,"end":8164.2,"text":"我們剛剛幾位委員去看他們"},{"start":8164.2,"end":8166.2,"text":"真的高溫非常炎熱"},{"start":8166.2,"end":8168.2,"text":"他們很在乎的十六條"},{"start":8168.2,"end":8170.2,"text":"他們剛剛有講就是說"},{"start":8171.09,"end":8174.09,"text":"這個拒絕合理調整即是歧視"},{"start":8174.09,"end":8176.09,"text":"不應該再經過評議"},{"start":8176.42,"end":8178.42,"text":"所以他們"},{"start":8178.58,"end":8181.58,"text":"就是我們去看他說他直接給了這個意見"},{"start":8181.58,"end":8184.58,"text":"所以剛剛這個動議的這個板"},{"start":8184.58,"end":8187.58,"text":"我想這個大家還是需要再溝通"},{"start":8187.58,"end":8193.58,"text":"就是剛剛身上朋友有很直白的告訴我們說"},{"start":8194.14,"end":8196.14,"text":"這個版本他們"},{"start":8196.44,"end":8197.44,"text":"沒有辦法"},{"start":8197.97,"end":8198.97,"text":"就是完全接受"},{"start":8198.97,"end":8200.97,"text":"因為前面是有提到說"},{"start":8200.97,"end":8203.97,"text":"這個要經過評議審定成立後"},{"start":8203.97,"end":8205.97,"text":"及構成歧視"},{"start":8205.97,"end":8207.97,"text":"那你們的文字改成怎樣"},{"start":8211.3,"end":8212.3,"text":"前面"},{"start":8212.3,"end":8213.3,"text":"那你有那個嗎"},{"start":8213.3,"end":8215.3,"text":"拒絕合理調整即悔歧視嗎"},{"start":8215.3,"end":8216.3,"text":"有"},{"start":8224.87,"end":8227.87,"text":"在皇帝的前面的這一段"},{"start":8227.87,"end":8229.87,"text":"皇帝最前面的這一段"},{"start":8230.26,"end":8234.26,"text":"這個拒絕提供身心障礙者合理調整"},{"start":8234.26,"end":8238.26,"text":"且無法證明該調整措施造成不成比例或過度負擔"},{"start":8238.26,"end":8241.26,"text":"又構成第一項之歧視"},{"start":8241.26,"end":8243.26,"text":"那這跟評議"},{"start":8243.26,"end":8245.26,"text":"我知道啊"},{"start":8245.26,"end":8249.26,"text":"但是無法證明不成比例那誰來認定"},{"start":8249.26,"end":8256.26,"text":"那就是回到現行申請法地方政府去認定歧視的歧視"},{"start":8256.97,"end":8258.97,"text":"還是要你認定"},{"start":8258.97,"end":8259.97,"text":"沒有啦"},{"start":8259.97,"end":8261.97,"text":"就先那個啦"},{"start":8261.97,"end":8264.97,"text":"身上朋友是希望不用經過認定"},{"start":8264.97,"end":8268.97,"text":"在文字上面前面先不要寫認定"},{"start":8272.09,"end":8273.09,"text":"走"},{"start":8274.07,"end":8276.07,"text":"因為這個是行政法"},{"start":8276.07,"end":8277.07,"text":"那昭偉可不可以"},{"start":8277.07,"end":8278.07,"text":"就按照行政程序"},{"start":8278.07,"end":8279.07,"text":"昭偉可不可以具體建議"},{"start":8279.07,"end":8282.07,"text":"就是說身上朋友當然希望修法是要的進程"},{"start":8282.07,"end":8286.07,"text":"但是這個顯然我們有一些文字上面還沒有共識"},{"start":8286.07,"end":8291.07,"text":"所以要拜託昭偉是不是可以很快的再召開一次"},{"start":8291.07,"end":8292.07,"text":"好不好"},{"start":8292.07,"end":8294.07,"text":"讓那個我們行政部門"},{"start":8294.07,"end":8296.07,"text":"把那個文字的部分"},{"start":8296.07,"end":8298.07,"text":"我覺得今天有一點點進步"},{"start":8298.07,"end":8300.07,"text":"你們本來是抵死不從"},{"start":8300.07,"end":8303.07,"text":"但是完全不能看到這些文字"},{"start":8303.07,"end":8306.07,"text":"但你們今天其實已經有部分接受了"},{"start":8306.07,"end":8308.07,"text":"我覺得這是一個好的成果"},{"start":8308.07,"end":8310.07,"text":"那就拜託昭偉比較辛苦一點"},{"start":8310.07,"end":8311.07,"text":"我們再開一次好不好"},{"start":8311.07,"end":8315.07,"text":"因為身上朋友也很擔心說今天沒有共識之後就遙遙無期"},{"start":8315.07,"end":8317.07,"text":"他說他們也等不及了"},{"start":8317.07,"end":8320.07,"text":"然後你們趕快回去修正"},{"start":8320.07,"end":8322.07,"text":"然後下一次趕快開"},{"start":8322.07,"end":8324.07,"text":"我們進度一樣往前推進"},{"start":8324.07,"end":8328.07,"text":"主席我也發言一下啦"},{"start":8328.07,"end":8330.07,"text":"因為那個聲障團體也有很多個"},{"start":8330.07,"end":8332.07,"text":"那我要幫昭偉講話一下"},{"start":8332.07,"end":8335.07,"text":"他那個修正動議我們也有去請教過"},{"start":8335.07,"end":8338.07,"text":"至少有一個聲障團體是支持的"},{"start":8338.07,"end":8341.07,"text":"我想當然就是說可能也有一些團體不同意"},{"start":8341.07,"end":8343.07,"text":"因為這個議題比較新"},{"start":8343.07,"end":8346.07,"text":"所以我同意就是說也許我們可以先保留"},{"start":8346.07,"end":8351.07,"text":"但是可以儘速再協商讓他有明確的進展"},{"start":8351.07,"end":8353.07,"text":"因為這個新的這個部分"},{"start":8353.07,"end":8358.07,"text":"大家都再聽一下衛福部剛剛的這個新的修正"},{"start":8358.07,"end":8361.07,"text":"大家感覺回去研究一下是不是"},{"start":8361.64,"end":8363.64,"text":"有進展啦 往前有進展"},{"start":8366.85,"end":8368.85,"text":"來請 教授委員 不好意思"},{"start":8368.85,"end":8371.85,"text":"我現在只有一個重要的核心精神"},{"start":8371.85,"end":8374.85,"text":"就是這個舉證 因為這邊提到要無法證明"},{"start":8374.85,"end":8377.85,"text":"那這個舉證很重要的關鍵是誰舉證"},{"start":8377.85,"end":8380.85,"text":"是聲障者來舉證說你沒有給我合理調整"},{"start":8380.85,"end":8382.85,"text":"還是說機關構要舉證"},{"start":8382.85,"end":8386.85,"text":"所以要假設說他的訴求是都是OK的"},{"start":8386.85,"end":8389.85,"text":"除非你可以找到他部"},{"start":8389.85,"end":8392.85,"text":"但是你 但是文字看不出來啊"},{"start":8393.86,"end":8397.86,"text":"那個主持沒有辦法主持"},{"start":8397.86,"end":8399.86,"text":"就是這個精神啦 然後也請"},{"start":8401.65,"end":8403.65,"text":"好 就我們要確定這個精神"},{"start":8403.65,"end":8404.65,"text":"要經過你們"},{"start":8405.77,"end":8407.77,"text":"讓大家了解"},{"start":8409.18,"end":8411.18,"text":"謝謝 就是這個精神我想要確定"},{"start":8411.18,"end":8413.18,"text":"然後也請召委 謝謝召委"},{"start":8413.18,"end":8416.18,"text":"就盡快在哲琪再來做協商 謝謝"},{"start":8416.18,"end":8418.18,"text":"好 陳經緯委員"},{"start":8418.18,"end":8419.18,"text":"那我盡快發言"},{"start":8419.18,"end":8421.18,"text":"因為剛剛有委員提議"},{"start":8421.18,"end":8424.18,"text":"也可以在很短的時間重新召開"},{"start":8424.18,"end":8426.18,"text":"並且再更聚焦"},{"start":8426.18,"end":8430.18,"text":"道具組長就沒有回應我一開始詢問數據的問題"},{"start":8430.18,"end":8436.18,"text":"我們就是因為很在意你們以前的這些案件數據"},{"start":8436.18,"end":8440.18,"text":"跟實際懲處的數據落差真的太大"},{"start":8440.18,"end":8443.18,"text":"那我們手上的資料是正確的嗎"},{"start":8443.18,"end":8446.18,"text":"再來這個道具組長"},{"start":8446.18,"end":8450.18,"text":"是否 如果我們在很短的時間再協商的話"},{"start":8450.18,"end":8453.18,"text":"可不可以也主動讓我們知道"},{"start":8453.18,"end":8456.18,"text":"您這邊跟這些團體確認的結果"},{"start":8456.18,"end":8461.18,"text":"不然似乎大家都認為溝通不夠"},{"start":8461.18,"end":8463.18,"text":"好像還一直沒有辦法"},{"start":8463.18,"end":8467.18,"text":"把共識拉在一起 謝謝"},{"start":8469.34,"end":8470.34,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":8470.34,"end":8472.34,"text":"我說用今天您的這個版本去溝通"},{"start":8472.34,"end":8473.34,"text":"您的這個版本"},{"start":8474.99,"end":8475.99,"text":"好"},{"start":8475.85,"end":8476.85,"text":"組長有回應嗎"},{"start":8477.56,"end":8479.56,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":8479.56,"end":8483.56,"text":"那個數據的部分我們會再整理以後再提供給委員這邊"},{"start":8483.56,"end":8489.56,"text":"那這個今天我們大概因為確實是現在初步整理出來的文字"},{"start":8489.56,"end":8491.56,"text":"那如果那個如果"},{"start":8491.56,"end":8494.56,"text":"我們後續大概也會在這樣的一個基礎上面"},{"start":8494.56,"end":8497.56,"text":"那再跟相關的所有的聲唱團體"},{"start":8497.56,"end":8499.56,"text":"那再來一起來做相關的解釋"},{"start":8499.56,"end":8502.56,"text":"然後來設法來凝聚大家的意見"},{"start":8502.56,"end":8503.56,"text":"好 謝謝組長"},{"start":8503.56,"end":8504.56,"text":"組長"},{"start":8504.56,"end":8506.56,"text":"跟各位委員報告"},{"start":8506.56,"end":8509.56,"text":"我們這個時間是到兩點"},{"start":8509.56,"end":8510.56,"text":"時間也快到了"},{"start":8510.56,"end":8514.56,"text":"請教各位委員說我要繼續延長開會時間"},{"start":8515.02,"end":8516.02,"text":"各位"},{"start":8521.25,"end":8522.25,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8522.95,"end":8523.95,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8524.05,"end":8525.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8525.05,"end":8526.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8527.27,"end":8529.27,"text":"我們本來要協商是21條"},{"start":8529.27,"end":8532.27,"text":"20條現在加1並21條"},{"start":8532.27,"end":8535.27,"text":"目前進度3條沒有半條通過"},{"start":8535.27,"end":8538.27,"text":"請讓各位了解這個狀況"},{"start":8538.27,"end":8543.27,"text":"對身心障礙者基本上我們都希望所有的草案都有共識"},{"start":8543.27,"end":8546.27,"text":"都有共識這樣來推動比較好"},{"start":8547.47,"end":8549.47,"text":"好還有其他的說明"},{"start":8549.97,"end":8551.97,"text":"先表達要不要延會"},{"start":8551.97,"end":8553.97,"text":"延長開會時間還是怎樣"},{"start":8553.97,"end":8555.97,"text":"那主席我表達一下意見就是說"},{"start":8555.97,"end":8558.97,"text":"因為我覺得其實剛剛在雖然說我們3條都保留"},{"start":8558.97,"end":8561.97,"text":"但是我想剛剛的討論還是很有價值"},{"start":8561.97,"end":8563.97,"text":"特別在16條的部分"},{"start":8563.97,"end":8565.97,"text":"大家都有稍微去做一些調整"},{"start":8565.97,"end":8567.97,"text":"然後有高度的共識"},{"start":8567.97,"end":8570.97,"text":"那因為我想說因為這前面這3條其實也是非常重要"},{"start":8570.97,"end":8574.97,"text":"我們要不要就是說讓部會再跟委員然後團體"},{"start":8574.97,"end":8576.97,"text":"我們大家再溝通一下"},{"start":8577.97,"end":8579.97,"text":"那今天的會議就先到這邊"},{"start":8579.97,"end":8583.97,"text":"然後我們下次再盡快的來去開會這樣子"},{"start":8583.97,"end":8585.97,"text":"好那這樣也許我們下次就可以更快的有進度"},{"start":8585.97,"end":8587.97,"text":"更可以推進這樣謝謝"},{"start":8588.58,"end":8589.58,"text":"8月7號"},{"start":8590.42,"end":8591.42,"text":"請說"},{"start":8592.7,"end":8593.7,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8594.37,"end":8595.37,"text":"雖然等一下要結束"},{"start":8595.37,"end":8600.37,"text":"但是我提醒一下就是那個有關於個人助理那個時速的問題"},{"start":8600.37,"end":8601.37,"text":"也是"},{"start":8602.1,"end":8606.1,"text":"我們身上朋友非常關注在這次修法裡面"},{"start":8606.1,"end":8608.1,"text":"那這一個部分"},{"start":8608.1,"end":8613.1,"text":"我拜託衛福部你們真的要有一些想法"},{"start":8613.1,"end":8617.1,"text":"因為今天我們已經有一個修正動議"},{"start":8617.1,"end":8619.1,"text":"47條我們有修正動議"},{"start":8619.1,"end":8624.1,"text":"就是還是希望最高可以到24小時"},{"start":8624.1,"end":8626.1,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":8626.1,"end":8628.1,"text":"因為我覺得是關鍵性條文"},{"start":8628.1,"end":8630.1,"text":"我不知道衛福部的態度有沒有鬆動"},{"start":8630.1,"end":8632.1,"text":"是不是可以接受"},{"start":8632.1,"end":8633.1,"text":"因為像我們剛剛16條"},{"start":8633.1,"end":8636.1,"text":"顯然你們也願意就是再去思考了"},{"start":8636.1,"end":8640.1,"text":"那這個各住24小時的部分"},{"start":8641.36,"end":8643.36,"text":"是不是要稍微請他們回應一下"},{"start":8643.36,"end":8644.36,"text":"因為是關鍵性條文"},{"start":8644.36,"end":8646.36,"text":"那今天大家稍微要交流一下"},{"start":8646.36,"end":8649.36,"text":"不然下次來又是又是從零開始"},{"start":8650.65,"end":8652.65,"text":"好 請造資委員"},{"start":8653.21,"end":8654.21,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8654.21,"end":8657.21,"text":"因為這條修正動議我們就之前有提出來"},{"start":8657.21,"end":8660.21,"text":"因為現在平均一個月60小時"},{"start":8660.21,"end":8662.21,"text":"就每天平均兩個小時"},{"start":8662.21,"end":8665.21,"text":"距離他們這個需求非常的遙遠"},{"start":8665.21,"end":8668.21,"text":"那就是他們就期待24小時"},{"start":8668.21,"end":8672.21,"text":"所以一定要請衛福部回去研擬你們自己認為"},{"start":8672.21,"end":8674.21,"text":"應該怎麼樣來配合這個部分"},{"start":8674.21,"end":8677.21,"text":"就是不要再下次又卡在這個地方"},{"start":8677.21,"end":8681.21,"text":"因為現在這個距離他們的期待非常遙遠"},{"start":8681.75,"end":8683.75,"text":"一天兩小時平均"},{"start":8683.75,"end":8684.75,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8685.14,"end":8688.14,"text":"好 請劉委員再請歡迎委員"},{"start":8688.14,"end":8691.14,"text":"謝謝建國召委 陳召委安排這個申請法"},{"start":8691.14,"end":8694.14,"text":"但是因為我想還有很多很重大的條文"},{"start":8694.14,"end":8695.14,"text":"是需要時間"},{"start":8695.14,"end":8698.14,"text":"要讓行政部門跟障礙團體"},{"start":8698.14,"end":8700.14,"text":"大家好好的溝通有共識"},{"start":8700.14,"end":8701.14,"text":"我也非常認同"},{"start":8701.14,"end":8703.14,"text":"所以我想等一下兩點到了之後"},{"start":8703.14,"end":8707.14,"text":"可能就是要自己要見請建國召委"},{"start":8707.14,"end":8710.14,"text":"再找時間盡速來安排"},{"start":8710.14,"end":8714.14,"text":"但是這個過程中要麻煩這個衛福部"},{"start":8714.87,"end":8717.87,"text":"包含著今天剛剛16條非常重要的條文之外"},{"start":8717.87,"end":8720.87,"text":"還有接下來要討論的個人助理"},{"start":8720.87,"end":8722.87,"text":"那個人助理其實昨天我在"},{"start":8722.87,"end":8726.87,"text":"我們昨天衛環委員會在討論安樂死"},{"start":8726.87,"end":8729.87,"text":"我想我跟部長有很多對話就是討論這一塊"},{"start":8729.87,"end":8731.87,"text":"很多人他並不是真的需要"},{"start":8731.87,"end":8733.87,"text":"還想要去安樂死"},{"start":8733.87,"end":8735.87,"text":"是因為社會的支持不夠"},{"start":8735.87,"end":8738.87,"text":"那這個個人助理就是很明顯的例子"},{"start":8738.87,"end":8739.87,"text":"你沒有辦法一天24小時"},{"start":8739.87,"end":8740.87,"text":"有一些重度障礙者"},{"start":8740.87,"end":8741.87,"text":"重度障礙者"},{"start":8741.87,"end":8744.87,"text":"他晚上如果他不小心倒下去"},{"start":8744.87,"end":8746.87,"text":"但是他完全沒有辦法翻身的"},{"start":8746.87,"end":8749.87,"text":"那你都沒有辦法照顧到他24小時"},{"start":8749.87,"end":8752.87,"text":"那到底這個支持是不是不足夠的"},{"start":8752.87,"end":8755.87,"text":"我相信部長你一直點頭你也知道是不夠的"},{"start":8755.87,"end":8757.87,"text":"那現在障礙團體就是希望"},{"start":8757.87,"end":8759.87,"text":"不要說是只有一個條文"},{"start":8759.87,"end":8760.87,"text":"只是帶到"},{"start":8760.87,"end":8762.87,"text":"還怎麼因變成得"},{"start":8762.87,"end":8766.87,"text":"這個部分我覺得專章是大家至少期待"},{"start":8766.87,"end":8768.87,"text":"一個很重大的突破"},{"start":8768.87,"end":8770.87,"text":"所以我想在下次召開之前"},{"start":8770.87,"end":8773.87,"text":"你們應該是要對於這個專章的部分"},{"start":8773.87,"end":8774.87,"text":"儘速去溝通"},{"start":8774.87,"end":8776.87,"text":"這個專章怎麼立"},{"start":8776.87,"end":8778.87,"text":"然後怎麼樣是可以跟障礙團體"},{"start":8778.87,"end":8781.87,"text":"可以接受大家有共識的部分"},{"start":8781.87,"end":8784.87,"text":"我想這才會讓下一次有很具體的邁進"},{"start":8784.87,"end":8785.87,"text":"不然還是一樣卡關"},{"start":8785.87,"end":8786.87,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":8786.87,"end":8788.87,"text":"好 謝謝六行委員"},{"start":8788.87,"end":8789.87,"text":"那請歡迎委員"},{"start":8789.87,"end":8792.87,"text":"我也對下次會議前"},{"start":8792.87,"end":8796.87,"text":"那希望衛福部可以提出"},{"start":8796.87,"end":8799.87,"text":"日本跟韓國這兩個經濟實力"},{"start":8799.87,"end":8802.87,"text":"跟我們比較接近的國家"},{"start":8802.87,"end":8804.87,"text":"他們在個人助理數"},{"start":8804.87,"end":8808.87,"text":"政府提供的時數跟大約的標準好嗎"},{"start":8808.87,"end":8811.87,"text":"因為上次有一個日本的國會議員是伸張者"},{"start":8811.87,"end":8815.87,"text":"他來我們台灣分享日本的障礙的制度"},{"start":8815.87,"end":8816.87,"text":"我印象非常深刻"},{"start":8816.87,"end":8819.87,"text":"他就有非常多的個人助理"},{"start":8819.87,"end":8820.87,"text":"大概是五六位"},{"start":8820.87,"end":8822.87,"text":"那他的那個伸張程度"},{"start":8822.87,"end":8825.87,"text":"伸張程度跟我們之前的陳俊漢律師"},{"start":8825.87,"end":8828.87,"text":"民進黨的那個不分區候選很接近"},{"start":8828.87,"end":8831.87,"text":"我想我們經常說我們的經濟實力"},{"start":8831.87,"end":8833.87,"text":"好像都已經要超越日韓"},{"start":8833.87,"end":8838.87,"text":"那我們先暫時不要拿歐洲這個高稅收的國家來做比較"},{"start":8838.87,"end":8842.87,"text":"那我們把日本韓國既有的這個個人助理的制度"},{"start":8842.87,"end":8844.87,"text":"那看一下的話"},{"start":8844.87,"end":8848.87,"text":"我想就能夠大家可以找出一個可以接受的一條路"},{"start":8848.87,"end":8849.87,"text":"以上"},{"start":8849.87,"end":8850.87,"text":"那也特別謝謝昭偉"},{"start":8850.87,"end":8852.87,"text":"百忙中這個雲林現場的選舉"},{"start":8852.87,"end":8855.87,"text":"今天還沒有跑行程"},{"start":8855.87,"end":8857.87,"text":"在專門為大家開這個"},{"start":8857.87,"end":8859.87,"text":"支持羅建國"},{"start":8864.08,"end":8865.08,"text":"好"},{"start":8866.63,"end":8868.63,"text":"好"},{"start":8868.23,"end":8871.23,"text":"因為我合理的我在合理的調整我們開會時間"},{"start":8872.42,"end":8874.42,"text":"好"},{"start":8873.26,"end":8875.26,"text":"各位還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":8875.96,"end":8877.96,"text":"那麼我們就"},{"start":8878.63,"end":8879.63,"text":"我會盡快啦好不好"},{"start":8879.63,"end":8881.63,"text":"就盡快但是也拜託各位"},{"start":8881.63,"end":8883.63,"text":"就是請用撥籠時間"},{"start":8883.63,"end":8886.63,"text":"可能下禮拜就會再擇定一天"},{"start":8890.84,"end":8893.84,"text":"我想你當然很認真很快可以排"},{"start":8893.84,"end":8897.84,"text":"但是衛福部如果沒有趕快溝通沒有共識當然也是一樣"},{"start":8897.84,"end":8898.84,"text":"是啦沒有錯"},{"start":8900.38,"end":8901.38,"text":"是"},{"start":8902.22,"end":8903.22,"text":"是"},{"start":8905.96,"end":8906.96,"text":"是"},{"start":8907.72,"end":8909.72,"text":"署長你有聽到"},{"start":8909.72,"end":8911.72,"text":"一切都是你"},{"start":8912.06,"end":8914.06,"text":"你要有合理的調整"},{"start":8914.06,"end":8915.06,"text":"好"},{"start":8915.06,"end":8916.06,"text":"不然你就是歧視"},{"start":8916.06,"end":8919.06,"text":"謝謝那我們本案協商三位完成"},{"start":8919.06,"end":8921.06,"text":"擇期繼續審查"},{"start":8921.06,"end":8926.06,"text":"也請行政機關就委員所提的意見多做溝通"},{"start":8926.06,"end":8928.06,"text":"然後現在宣布散會"},{"start":8928.06,"end":8929.06,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":8930.7,"end":8931.7,"text":"各位"},{"start":8936.96,"end":8938.96,"text":"你敢蓋了你也一起死"},{"start":8944.71,"end":8946.71,"text":"你敢你敢你敢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}