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便宜電價"},{"start":2.63,"end":4.73,"text":"還有提升國防韌性"},{"start":4.73,"end":7.73,"text":"支持人工智慧產業發展"},{"start":7.73,"end":10.73,"text":"然後希望尋求人民最大的共識"},{"start":10.73,"end":13.43,"text":"也希望讓民進黨政府知道說"},{"start":13.43,"end":15.33,"text":"真正的民意在哪裡"},{"start":15.33,"end":17.23,"text":"把這個錯誤的"},{"start":17.23,"end":19.73,"text":"非核家園的這項能源政策"},{"start":19.73,"end":22.23,"text":"就完完全全的透過這次公投"},{"start":22.23,"end":24.330000000000002,"text":"可以完全的廢除"},{"start":24.330000000000002,"end":27.130000000000003,"text":"然後讓能源成為未來我們國家"},{"start":27.130000000000003,"end":29.130000000000003,"text":"重要的能源選項之一"},{"start":29.130000000000003,"end":29.630000000000003,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":30.39,"end":31.89,"text":"好 謝謝王毓民委員"},{"start":31.89,"end":33.89,"text":"再來請洪玉祥委員發言"},{"start":35.25,"end":39.25,"text":"好 我想這個台灣的一個能源政策"},{"start":39.25,"end":40.85,"text":"不應該是一個"},{"start":40.85,"end":43.85,"text":"被政黨意識形態綁架的"},{"start":43.85,"end":46.25,"text":"尤其是這個非核家園"},{"start":46.25,"end":49.25,"text":"這樣子的一個錯誤的一個政策"},{"start":49.25,"end":50.85,"text":"因為台灣也要我們發展"},{"start":50.85,"end":53.849999999999994,"text":"人工智慧半導體先進製造"},{"start":53.849999999999994,"end":56.25,"text":"事實上我們要的其實是足夠的電力"},{"start":56.25,"end":58.65,"text":"而且要stable 是要穩定的"},{"start":59.43,"end":61.83,"text":"基本上它的缺電"},{"start":61.83,"end":64.42999999999999,"text":"基本上也不是說能源報表上面"},{"start":64.42999999999999,"end":66.23,"text":"少了一個百分點"},{"start":66.23,"end":68.42999999999999,"text":"缺電的話你如果在現場就知道"},{"start":68.42999999999999,"end":70.42999999999999,"text":"它是一條停擺的產線"},{"start":70.42999999999999,"end":73.23,"text":"有可能是幾張螺絲的國際的訂單"},{"start":73.23,"end":75.43,"text":"有可能也是一家撐不下去的"},{"start":75.43,"end":76.83,"text":"中小的企業"},{"start":76.83,"end":79.03,"text":"那你可能會導致我們一些的勞工"},{"start":79.03,"end":80.73,"text":"失去這樣的工作"},{"start":80.73,"end":83.03,"text":"所以我覺得台灣是需要一個穩定"},{"start":83.03,"end":86.03,"text":"可靠的一個這樣子的一個電力的來源"},{"start":86.03,"end":89.23,"text":"所以我覺得一個負責任的能源的政策"},{"start":89.23,"end":91.33,"text":"事實上是一個hybrid混合"},{"start":91.33,"end":93.73,"text":"你可能是核能、綠能、儲能"},{"start":93.73,"end":96.33,"text":"跟其他電源的一個相互的搭配"},{"start":98.36,"end":100.56,"text":"廢除這個非核家園的話"},{"start":100.56,"end":102.36,"text":"我覺得或者是像我們這個"},{"start":102.36,"end":104.16,"text":"核核山的重啟"},{"start":104.16,"end":107.56,"text":"其實也在挽救我們的一個減碳的效果"},{"start":107.56,"end":110.86,"text":"因為其實當我們把這個核電廢掉之後"},{"start":110.86,"end":114.26,"text":"其實我們台灣的藍煤加藍氣的發電量"},{"start":114.26,"end":115.76,"text":"超過了八成"},{"start":115.76,"end":118.36,"text":"所以我的這個廠商的碳排的一個係數"},{"start":118.36,"end":119.56,"text":"一直都有升高"},{"start":119.56,"end":120.46000000000001,"text":"然後再升能源"},{"start":120.46000000000001,"end":122.86,"text":"在我們多次的經濟委員會一直跳票"},{"start":123.37,"end":125.87,"text":"20%達不到,修成16"},{"start":125.87,"end":127.67,"text":"16%達不到,修15"},{"start":127.67,"end":129.27,"text":"我們今年最近的運卡"},{"start":129.27,"end":131.67000000000002,"text":"他說勉強很開心的時候可以到14"},{"start":132.54999999999998,"end":134.14999999999998,"text":"我就不曉得在開心什麼"},{"start":134.14999999999998,"end":136.54999999999998,"text":"所以當這個東西來講的話"},{"start":136.54999999999998,"end":138.95,"text":"你把這個核電廢除"},{"start":138.95,"end":141.04999999999998,"text":"然後大陸就發展光電"},{"start":141.04999999999998,"end":143.14999999999998,"text":"然後又達不到既定的目標"},{"start":143.14999999999998,"end":145.25,"text":"然後到至於我們山也光電"},{"start":145.25,"end":147.35,"text":"水也光電,農地也光電"},{"start":147.35,"end":148.64999999999998,"text":"魚園也光電"},{"start":148.64999999999998,"end":151.35,"text":"現在新的住入建宅的屋頂上面"},{"start":151.35,"end":152.35,"text":"也都要是光電"},{"start":153.8,"end":155.9,"text":"這些東西來講,我就覺得"},{"start":155.9,"end":157.5,"text":"為什麼不是一個"},{"start":157.5,"end":160.8,"text":"混合的有效的能源的健康的政策"},{"start":160.8,"end":163.5,"text":"那就是因為這樣子的一個口號"},{"start":163.5,"end":166.8,"text":"其實主要我們台灣的穩定的能源的發展"},{"start":166.8,"end":169.70000000000002,"text":"以及我們邁向真正廠商"},{"start":169.70000000000002,"end":172.60000000000002,"text":"在面對這個CBA,CBAN的"},{"start":172.60000000000002,"end":174.9,"text":"這樣子的一個碳稅的高電量"},{"start":174.9,"end":176.8,"text":"所面臨到一個阻礙"},{"start":176.8,"end":177.5,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":178.57,"end":181.76999999999998,"text":"這個東西,能源的政策是一個比較科學"},{"start":181.76999999999998,"end":184.26999999999998,"text":"務實的一個角度來看待"},{"start":184.26999999999998,"end":185.76999999999998,"text":"我們並不是說"},{"start":185.76999999999998,"end":189.17,"text":"我今天要支持這個核能"},{"start":189.17,"end":190.67,"text":"然後就不顧核能的安全"},{"start":190.67,"end":193.07,"text":"而是說台灣需要一個混合的"},{"start":193.07,"end":194.57,"text":"也是要支持綠電"},{"start":194.57,"end":196.26999999999998,"text":"但是基本上就是"},{"start":196.26999999999998,"end":198.26999999999998,"text":"在一個過渡的時期"},{"start":198.26999999999998,"end":201.47,"text":"你怎麼讓台灣有一個穩定的電力的發展"},{"start":201.47,"end":203.76999999999998,"text":"那我覺得先把這一個"},{"start":205.45999999999998,"end":206.45999999999998,"text":"這樣子的一個"},{"start":206.45999999999998,"end":208.06,"text":"錯誤的一個口號政策"},{"start":208.06,"end":209.45999999999998,"text":"先把它移除掉"},{"start":209.45999999999998,"end":211.16,"text":"以上是本黨的看法"},{"start":212.72,"end":213.72,"text":"好,謝謝黃副市長委員"},{"start":213.72,"end":215.72,"text":"再來請民進黨的陳培裕委員"},{"start":215.72,"end":216.72,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":216.72,"end":218.72,"text":"我們先來看一下這一次"},{"start":218.72,"end":221.72,"text":"這個國民黨團提案的公投主文"},{"start":221.72,"end":223.72,"text":"寫了五項美好的承諾"},{"start":223.72,"end":225.02,"text":"第一個叫國民健康"},{"start":225.02,"end":226.32,"text":"第二個叫穩定供電"},{"start":226.32,"end":228.12,"text":"第三個叫便宜電價"},{"start":228.12,"end":229.62,"text":"第四個叫國防韌性"},{"start":229.62,"end":231.52,"text":"第五個叫AI產業發展"},{"start":231.52,"end":233.72,"text":"把這五個看起來非常美好的"},{"start":233.72,"end":235.92,"text":"不論是經濟的發展"},{"start":235.92,"end":237.02,"text":"然後或是能源的發展"},{"start":237.02,"end":238.22,"text":"產業的發展"},{"start":238.22,"end":240.52,"text":"一次捆綁在所謂的廢除"},{"start":240.62,"end":242.62,"text":"非核家園這個選項上"},{"start":242.62,"end":244.62,"text":"其實在暗示我們的選民說"},{"start":244.62,"end":245.82000000000002,"text":"只要投下同意票"},{"start":245.82000000000002,"end":247.82000000000002,"text":"所有問題都可以一起解決"},{"start":247.82000000000002,"end":249.82000000000002,"text":"其實一個負責任的政黨"},{"start":249.82000000000002,"end":251.82000000000002,"text":"而且甚至過去是長期執政的"},{"start":251.82000000000002,"end":254.42000000000002,"text":"國民黨真的是非常的不負責任"},{"start":254.42000000000002,"end":257.02,"text":"從來沒有一個事情可以簡單被解決"},{"start":257.02,"end":259.82,"text":"那我要說選民對這五項議題"},{"start":259.82,"end":262.22,"text":"跟這所謂美好的五項承諾"},{"start":262.22,"end":263.62,"text":"都可能會有不同的看法"},{"start":263.62,"end":265.22,"text":"可是現在被捆綁在一起"},{"start":265.22,"end":266.92,"text":"看起來就只能一次表態"},{"start":266.92,"end":268.02,"text":"我認為這是一種"},{"start":268.02,"end":269.82,"text":"誘導式主文取得的多數"},{"start":269.82,"end":272.12,"text":"真的不能代表社會對核能有共識"},{"start":272.12,"end":273.52,"text":"接下來我要說"},{"start":273.52,"end":275.52,"text":"剛剛已經離開的王毅明委員"},{"start":275.52,"end":276.62,"text":"特別提到說"},{"start":276.62,"end":278.21999999999997,"text":"民進黨只要講到核能"},{"start":278.21999999999997,"end":280.12,"text":"就會提三個前提"},{"start":280.12,"end":282.92,"text":"我要說那三個前提是負責任的前提"},{"start":282.92,"end":284.52,"text":"也就是核安無虞"},{"start":284.52,"end":285.71999999999997,"text":"核廢有解"},{"start":285.71999999999997,"end":286.92,"text":"社會有共識"},{"start":286.92,"end":288.92,"text":"我要問難道國民黨認為"},{"start":288.92,"end":290.12,"text":"核廢不用解嗎"},{"start":290.12,"end":291.52,"text":"社會不用有共識嗎"},{"start":291.52,"end":292.62,"text":"如果社會不需要有共識"},{"start":292.62,"end":294.32,"text":"為什麼現在要提公投呢"},{"start":294.32,"end":295.71999999999997,"text":"甚至是核安這件事情"},{"start":295.71999999999997,"end":297.12,"text":"難道不是議題嗎"},{"start":297.12,"end":298.12,"text":"所以我要說"},{"start":298.22,"end":299.92,"text":"所謂的核安無虞核廢有解"},{"start":299.92,"end":300.72,"text":"社會有共識"},{"start":300.72,"end":302.32,"text":"這是負責任的說法"},{"start":302.32,"end":305.12,"text":"這從來都不是王毅明委員口中的口號"},{"start":305.12,"end":306.52,"text":"我要再一次的強調"},{"start":306.52,"end":307.92,"text":"我們負責任的提出"},{"start":307.92,"end":309.92,"text":"對於核安相關議題的想法"},{"start":309.92,"end":311.32,"text":"跟政策的解放"},{"start":311.32,"end":313.32,"text":"我們當然也需要地方政府的支持"},{"start":313.32,"end":315.52,"text":"尤其在核廢議題上"},{"start":315.52,"end":316.22,"text":"接下來呢"},{"start":316.22,"end":317.02,"text":"我要說"},{"start":317.72,"end":319.92,"text":"除了這個主文有右導式的"},{"start":320.42,"end":322.22,"text":"投票傾向之外"},{"start":322.22,"end":323.52,"text":"我要說在法治上"},{"start":323.82,"end":328.52,"text":"根本就早就已經沒有非核家園期程可廢了"},{"start":328.52,"end":331.22,"text":"這個案子根本就是空殼公投"},{"start":331.22,"end":332.42,"text":"我要再次強調"},{"start":332.52,"end":335.02,"text":"這個提案根本就是空殼公投"},{"start":335.32,"end":339.02,"text":"因為在2018年以核陽綠的公投案通過之後"},{"start":339.32,"end":341.42,"text":"編頁法第95條第一項"},{"start":341.72,"end":342.82,"text":"核能發電設備"},{"start":342.82,"end":347.42,"text":"因於114年以前全部停止運作的條文"},{"start":347.62,"end":349.92,"text":"已經在2019年的5月"},{"start":350.12,"end":352.62,"text":"被立法院三讀刪除之後"},{"start":352.62,"end":355.62,"text":"法律上早就沒有非核的時間表了"},{"start":355.72,"end":357.72,"text":"這是極其清楚"},{"start":357.72,"end":359.62,"text":"相關歷史官報都可以查得到"},{"start":359.72,"end":362.02,"text":"不知道為什麼國民黨跟民眾黨的委員"},{"start":362.02,"end":364.22,"text":"還在談所謂的非核期程"},{"start":364.52,"end":366.12,"text":"第二個我要提醒大家"},{"start":366.12,"end":369.52,"text":"2025年也就在去年的5月13號"},{"start":369.72,"end":371.32,"text":"我們立法院自己三讀"},{"start":371.32,"end":374.52,"text":"通過了核子反應器設施管制法"},{"start":374.82,"end":376.12,"text":"第六條修正案"},{"start":376.42,"end":377.72,"text":"在第三項明定"},{"start":377.92,"end":379.82,"text":"運轉執照戒滿後"},{"start":379.82,"end":383.12,"text":"得申請換發執照繼續運轉"},{"start":383.42,"end":385.12,"text":"相關主管機關核安會"},{"start":385.12,"end":387.12,"text":"也在2025年的10月8號"},{"start":387.12,"end":390.82,"text":"公告修正了核子反應器設施運轉執照"},{"start":390.82,"end":392.52,"text":"申請審核辦法"},{"start":392.72,"end":394.82,"text":"裡面就增定了輻射議題"},{"start":394.82,"end":396.82,"text":"還有耐震安全的評估"},{"start":397.02,"end":401.32,"text":"再運轉的計畫還有執行結果報告跟換照的辦法"},{"start":401.62,"end":403.22,"text":"也就是相關的法源"},{"start":403.22,"end":404.62,"text":"在立法院三讀通過"},{"start":404.72,"end":407.22,"text":"相關的子反和相關的子法"},{"start":407.22,"end":409.12,"text":"核安會負責的修訂完成"},{"start":409.22,"end":412.12,"text":"相關的審查程序也已經完備"},{"start":412.32,"end":415.62,"text":"所以剛剛國民黨所說的非核家園"},{"start":415.62,"end":417.72,"text":"擋住核電根本也不是事實"},{"start":418.12,"end":420.52,"text":"明明行政單位配合立法院"},{"start":420.52,"end":423.42,"text":"已經在做的事情就已經在進行"},{"start":424.01000000000005,"end":427.11,"text":"第三個我要說在野黨在立法院居多數"},{"start":427.11,"end":429.61,"text":"如果你們真的認為相關的子法"},{"start":429.81,"end":432.31,"text":"法源或是相關的審查程序"},{"start":432.31,"end":434.91,"text":"都應該繼續修正繼續討論"},{"start":435.11,"end":437.01000000000005,"text":"其實提案修法就可以了"},{"start":437.21000000000004,"end":438.81,"text":"那如果按照公民投票法"},{"start":438.81,"end":441.31,"text":"重大政策公投縱使通過"},{"start":441.51000000000005,"end":444.91,"text":"也必須要另循修法程序才有相關效力"},{"start":444.91,"end":445.81,"text":"也就是公投"},{"start":445.91,"end":448.51000000000005,"text":"辦法本身沒有辦法更改法律狀態"},{"start":448.71000000000004,"end":451.21000000000004,"text":"所以我剛剛說的不僅現在已經沒有"},{"start":451.31,"end":453.21,"text":"的時間表相關的修法"},{"start":453.21,"end":455.81,"text":"如果在野黨團認為不夠都還可以在立法院"},{"start":455.81,"end":456.71,"text":"進行討論"},{"start":456.90999999999997,"end":458.40999999999997,"text":"還有我要再一次強調"},{"start":458.81,"end":462.40999999999997,"text":"這根本是冷泛熱潮根本就是收割政治紅利"},{"start":462.51,"end":465.21,"text":"根本就是充滿了政治算計的公投提案"},{"start":465.40999999999997,"end":469.01,"text":"這個案子現在的寫法叫做廢除非核家園"},{"start":469.01,"end":470.71,"text":"政策的這個名義"},{"start":470.81,"end":474.31,"text":"可實質上仍然在處理同樣一個核能議題是什麼"},{"start":474.31,"end":474.90999999999997,"text":"議題呢"},{"start":475.10999999999996,"end":477.60999999999996,"text":"就是在2025年8月23"},{"start":477.91,"end":481.31,"text":"核三重啟公投投票結果是不通過"},{"start":481.61,"end":484.21000000000004,"text":"如果依照公民投票法第32條第一項"},{"start":484.51,"end":488.61,"text":"自公告結果起兩年內不得就同一事項重新提出"},{"start":488.81,"end":492.61,"text":"我要問到底這個案子有沒有涉及這條規定的限制"},{"start":492.81,"end":495.31,"text":"在沒有釐清之前我要呼籲在野黨團"},{"start":495.31,"end":496.81,"text":"不要強行通過"},{"start":496.91,"end":499.61,"text":"看起來真的是空殼提案"},{"start":500.37,"end":501.77,"text":"至於所謂的核廢"},{"start":501.96999999999997,"end":505.77,"text":"核安跟社會共識我們民進黨團在相關的很多場合"},{"start":505.77,"end":507.07,"text":"都已經再次強調"},{"start":507.27,"end":509.27,"text":"我就不再佔用今天特別的時間"},{"start":509.37,"end":512.17,"text":"但我還是要強調一個非常非常重要的事情"},{"start":512.37,"end":516.5699999999999,"text":"就是這個公投綁大選這件事情根本就是選舉動員"},{"start":516.5699999999999,"end":517.97,"text":"而不是能源政策"},{"start":518.17,"end":521.47,"text":"在今天國民黨的所有提案最後一題我要再次強調"},{"start":521.67,"end":525.27,"text":"因為國民黨團在同一個能源議題在三年內"},{"start":525.5699999999999,"end":527.47,"text":"反覆訴諸公投"},{"start":527.77,"end":529.87,"text":"2021年的核四提案"},{"start":529.97,"end":532.17,"text":"2025年的核三提案"},{"start":532.37,"end":537.47,"text":"還有2026年現在再提一次所謂非核家園的期程要廢除"},{"start":537.77,"end":540.87,"text":"基本上耗費了龐大的選務還有行政成本"},{"start":541.07,"end":545.37,"text":"中選會其實就已經就選務的浪能表達關切跟提出呼籲"},{"start":545.67,"end":547.27,"text":"可是很可惜看起來六案"},{"start":547.27,"end":550.77,"text":"如果真的今天所有的協商都是這樣過水的方法"},{"start":550.97,"end":552.27,"text":"大家沒有辦法實質的討論"},{"start":552.27,"end":553.67,"text":"併同九合一選舉辦理"},{"start":553.77,"end":556.87,"text":"我要再次呼籲可能會重演2018年"},{"start":557.17,"end":559.77,"text":"邊投票邊開票的亂象"},{"start":560.07,"end":565.47,"text":"我要再次強調而且政府行政院也很尊重2025年公投所反映的名義"},{"start":565.77,"end":570.07,"text":"同時根據相關的公投也已經啟動就有機組的安全檢查"},{"start":570.07,"end":571.47,"text":"所以實在沒有理由"},{"start":571.67,"end":575.87,"text":"在專業審查進行當中再一次包裹是公投干擾程序"},{"start":576.17,"end":577.67,"text":"我要呼籲請在會黨思考"},{"start":577.87,"end":582.57,"text":"究竟要把資源花在沒有辦法改變現實的公投上這個空殼公投"},{"start":582.77,"end":585.27,"text":"還是花錢在強化電網韌性"},{"start":585.57,"end":589.47,"text":"加速再生能源跟深度節能真正可以解決問題的政策"},{"start":589.57,"end":593.97,"text":"我想所有的政策單位都非常願意負責任的跟立法院對話"},{"start":594.1700000000001,"end":598.1700000000001,"text":"同時我剛剛已經再次強調根本就是空殼公投"},{"start":598.37,"end":602.27,"text":"非核家園其成根本已經沒有這個東西可以廢除了"},{"start":602.47,"end":606.1700000000001,"text":"所以不知道為什麼國民黨團體出這個提案我要請大家三思謝謝"},{"start":609.84,"end":614.0400000000001,"text":"好現在看起來今天人無法達成公示"},{"start":614.24,"end":616.74,"text":"本案保留送請院會處理"},{"start":616.94,"end":617.74,"text":"謝謝三會"},{"start":1065.97,"end":1066.8700000000001,"text":"本案保留送請院會處理"},{"start":1069.86,"end":1070.76,"text":"本案保留送請院會處理"},{"start":1131.74,"end":1132.64,"text":"本案保留送請院會處理"},{"start":1151.6999999999998,"end":1153.5,"text":"我先徵求各位委員意見"},{"start":1153.6999999999998,"end":1156.8,"text":"因為看起來三個黨團都在要不要提前"},{"start":1158.09,"end":1159.49,"text":"因為表定是十點半"},{"start":1160.79,"end":1161.3899999999999,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":1164.63,"end":1165.5300000000002,"text":"因為大家都很忙"},{"start":1167.05,"end":1171.45,"text":"因為各黨團都已到場現在開會"},{"start":1171.65,"end":1176.65,"text":"跟各黨團代表說明本日會議協商主題有兩案"},{"start":1176.8500000000001,"end":1178.75,"text":"現在依序進行協商"},{"start":1178.95,"end":1183.45,"text":"主題又是臺灣民進黨黨團凝聚公投提案主認為"},{"start":1183.65,"end":1187.3500000000001,"text":"你是否同意政府應將加方法規法環收入全數應用"},{"start":1187.55,"end":1190.8500000000001,"text":"以改善大陸交通安全環境及補貼大宗明書"},{"start":1191.05,"end":1195.25,"text":"而非因為增加科技執法設備請公決案"},{"start":1195.35,"end":1199.75,"text":"前進本會期第15次院會決議"},{"start":1199.95,"end":1201.35,"text":"交付黨團協商"},{"start":1201.55,"end":1203.95,"text":"並由臺灣民進黨黨團負責協商"},{"start":1204.15,"end":1206.85,"text":"故於今天召開協商的一個會議"},{"start":1210.51,"end":1214.51,"text":"在場的委員有洪孟考委員"},{"start":1214.71,"end":1217.1100000000001,"text":"林佩祥委員"},{"start":1217.3100000000002,"end":1218.71,"text":"陳培宜委員"},{"start":1218.91,"end":1220.41,"text":"羅書斌委員"},{"start":1221.29,"end":1225.79,"text":"首先我們先請提案的民進黨黨團發表意見"},{"start":1227.95,"end":1228.95,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":1229.15,"end":1232.55,"text":"民眾黨他提出了公投案"},{"start":1232.75,"end":1234.55,"text":"最主要有下面的一個意見"},{"start":1234.75,"end":1235.95,"text":"就是交通安全"},{"start":1236.15,"end":1238.55,"text":"他不應該只是開更多的罰單"},{"start":1238.75,"end":1242.3500000000001,"text":"而應該讓每位用路人都能夠平安的來回家"},{"start":1242.55,"end":1247.95,"text":"政府他已經設定了2030年的交通事故的死亡人數要減半"},{"start":1248.15,"end":1253.3500000000001,"text":"2050年零死亡的政策目標也要達成"},{"start":1253.55,"end":1257.3500000000001,"text":"但是在交通事故死傷人高居不下的時候"},{"start":1257.55,"end":1261.3500000000001,"text":"我們看到的是在2024年的全國交通事故"},{"start":1261.55,"end":1265.3500000000001,"text":"約40萬件死傷大概有53萬人"},{"start":1265.55,"end":1268.3500000000001,"text":"那去年的部分的資料也類似"},{"start":1268.55,"end":1274.55,"text":"那所以看到說這個違規的收入高達到142億元"},{"start":1274.75,"end":1278.95,"text":"顯示如果去單靠罰款或者是科技執法的話"},{"start":1279.15,"end":1283.15,"text":"並不足以有效的去做改善道路安全的事情"},{"start":1283.45,"end":1287.65,"text":"那根據研究要有效的提升交通安全"},{"start":1287.8500000000001,"end":1291.25,"text":"最主要應該是透過道路的設計交通的工程"},{"start":1291.45,"end":1294.8500000000001,"text":"標線的標誌跟人行環境路口的改善"},{"start":1295.0500000000002,"end":1297.0500000000002,"text":"相關安全設施等方式"},{"start":1297.25,"end":1301.25,"text":"還有當然最重要是用路人的使用態度"},{"start":1301.45,"end":1304.65,"text":"他也應該要自然的檢述跟遵循的規則"},{"start":1304.8500000000001,"end":1308.45,"text":"並不是要過度的要依賴處罰跟設置"},{"start":1308.65,"end":1312.65,"text":"這是應該檢討的是線型的道路交通違規罰款"},{"start":1312.65,"end":1314.95,"text":"收入分配及運用辦法當中"},{"start":1315.15,"end":1318.5500000000002,"text":"他的75%是由地方政府來處理"},{"start":1318.75,"end":1321.3500000000001,"text":"那地方政府他所收到的這個罰款"},{"start":1321.5500000000002,"end":1325.3500000000001,"text":"他也僅需要提撥12%作為交通執法"},{"start":1325.5500000000002,"end":1328.75,"text":"跟交通安全改善的這個經費"},{"start":1328.95,"end":1332.3500000000001,"text":"而其他的用途的缺乏明確的規範"},{"start":1332.5500000000002,"end":1336.5500000000002,"text":"使大量資源未必能夠真正投入到道路的工程"},{"start":1336.75,"end":1341.3500000000001,"text":"人行的環境危險路口的改善跟公共的運輸建設"},{"start":1341.85,"end":1346.4499999999998,"text":"因此我們台灣民眾黨提出交通罰單的公投"},{"start":1346.6499999999999,"end":1349.6499999999999,"text":"希望透過重大政策的創置"},{"start":1349.85,"end":1353.05,"text":"要求政府將交通違規罰款收入"},{"start":1353.25,"end":1356.85,"text":"全數的運用到改善的交通安全環境"},{"start":1357.05,"end":1358.85,"text":"及補貼的大眾運輸"},{"start":1359.05,"end":1363.25,"text":"而不是要一味的增加科技執法的設備"},{"start":1363.4499999999998,"end":1365.6499999999999,"text":"讓每一份來自交通罰款的收入"},{"start":1365.85,"end":1369.25,"text":"都真正的用到了交通安全的書中"},{"start":1369.35,"end":1371.95,"text":"讓事故的風險改善"},{"start":1372.15,"end":1374.55,"text":"然後提升這個用路品質"},{"start":1374.75,"end":1377.55,"text":"那這項公投它並不是要討論"},{"start":1377.75,"end":1380.35,"text":"執法的要不要去執法"},{"start":1380.55,"end":1384.75,"text":"而是討論到罰款的收入應該如何使用"},{"start":1384.95,"end":1385.95,"text":"當然有人會說"},{"start":1386.15,"end":1389.95,"text":"那是不是這個罰款涉及到的"},{"start":1390.15,"end":1393.55,"text":"是一個預算的議題"},{"start":1393.75,"end":1395.95,"text":"但是我們要強調的是說"},{"start":1396.05,"end":1399.8500000000001,"text":"我們並沒有做增加預算或刪減預算的"},{"start":1400.05,"end":1402.45,"text":"這樣的一個公投內文"},{"start":1402.65,"end":1406.25,"text":"而是要求要建立以罰款收入"},{"start":1406.45,"end":1408.45,"text":"應該優先回歸交通安全的"},{"start":1408.65,"end":1410.25,"text":"重大政策的這個原則"},{"start":1410.45,"end":1413.05,"text":"那我們過去一直在強調這個在"},{"start":1413.25,"end":1416.8500000000001,"text":"在立法還包括行政部門上面的一個需求"},{"start":1417.05,"end":1418.45,"text":"應該達到這樣的目的"},{"start":1418.65,"end":1420.25,"text":"但是一直都沒有沒有"},{"start":1420.45,"end":1423.05,"text":"所以我們才會提出來這樣子的一個部分"},{"start":1423.25,"end":1425.65,"text":"它當然有地方政府的考量是說"},{"start":1425.65,"end":1429.3500000000001,"text":"它可能要有這個地方增加收入的一個議題"},{"start":1429.5500000000002,"end":1431.15,"text":"但是為了增加人民安全"},{"start":1431.3500000000001,"end":1432.3500000000001,"text":"我們也知道的是"},{"start":1432.5500000000002,"end":1435.3500000000001,"text":"現在的財化法它的收入有在增加"},{"start":1435.5500000000002,"end":1436.75,"text":"那增加了收入之後"},{"start":1436.95,"end":1438.95,"text":"其實這部分的地方的政府的"},{"start":1439.15,"end":1440.75,"text":"這樣的因為要去跟"},{"start":1441.75,"end":1443.3500000000001,"text":"以交通安全為名"},{"start":1443.5500000000002,"end":1445.0500000000002,"text":"但是事實上並沒有在"},{"start":1445.25,"end":1448.5500000000002,"text":"實質的有效在改善的交通的傷亡情況之下"},{"start":1448.75,"end":1451.75,"text":"我們因為要特別要增加人民的安全"},{"start":1451.85,"end":1455.05,"text":"我們要不要跟人民的在這個"},{"start":1455.25,"end":1459.65,"text":"錢包作對然後再搶人民的財富"},{"start":1459.85,"end":1462.65,"text":"因此我們希望讓交通環境變得更安全更友善"},{"start":1462.85,"end":1465.85,"text":"所以我們希望將這項重大的交通政策"},{"start":1466.05,"end":1468.85,"text":"來交由全體國人來共同決定"},{"start":1469.05,"end":1471.85,"text":"讓交通法完真正的回歸到守護生命"},{"start":1472.05,"end":1473.85,"text":"保障安全的政策目的"},{"start":1474.05,"end":1476.25,"text":"三黨共同來支持謝謝"},{"start":1478.19,"end":1481.39,"text":"好接下來請這個國民黨黨團代表"},{"start":1481.5900000000001,"end":1482.79,"text":"對本案表示意見"},{"start":1486.82,"end":1489.72,"text":"本黨團跟民眾黨的黨團意見一致謝謝"},{"start":1491.27,"end":1495.17,"text":"好接下來的話請民進黨黨團代表意見"},{"start":1496.27,"end":1497.37,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":1499.46,"end":1500.06,"text":"好"},{"start":1500.9599999999998,"end":1502.76,"text":"我有點說不出話了好沒關係"},{"start":1502.9599999999998,"end":1505.9599999999998,"text":"我覺得這個提案真的是非常非常的可惜"},{"start":1506.1599999999999,"end":1508.76,"text":"我認為這應該是我們立法院該做的事情"},{"start":1508.9599999999998,"end":1511.76,"text":"我再一次強調相關的提案內容"},{"start":1511.9599999999998,"end":1513.76,"text":"來看一下民眾黨團的提議"},{"start":1513.9599999999998,"end":1517.4599999999998,"text":"說你是否同意政府應該將交通違規的"},{"start":1517.6599999999999,"end":1521.76,"text":"罰款收入全數運用於改善道路交通安全環境"},{"start":1521.9599999999998,"end":1523.76,"text":"以及補貼大眾運輸"},{"start":1523.9599999999998,"end":1527.36,"text":"而不是一昧增加科技執法及設備"},{"start":1527.56,"end":1529.56,"text":"其實這裡面有三個命題"},{"start":1529.6599999999999,"end":1532.6599999999999,"text":"第一個是要改善道路交通安全環境"},{"start":1532.86,"end":1534.6599999999999,"text":"也就是基礎設施要調整"},{"start":1534.86,"end":1537.6599999999999,"text":"第二個是補貼大眾運輸"},{"start":1537.86,"end":1540.26,"text":"第三個其實剛樓處賓委員一直強調"},{"start":1540.46,"end":1542.6599999999999,"text":"而不是一直挖人民的荷包"},{"start":1542.86,"end":1546.6599999999999,"text":"好像開很多的罰單就可以解決交通安全的問題"},{"start":1546.86,"end":1549.6599999999999,"text":"我相信相關的運輸其實如果拆開來看"},{"start":1549.86,"end":1552.86,"text":"在現行的法規不論是中央跟地方"},{"start":1553.06,"end":1555.56,"text":"真的都有法規可以依循"},{"start":1555.76,"end":1559.46,"text":"如果各位大立委覺得法規規範不夠好"},{"start":1559.6599999999999,"end":1561.6599999999999,"text":"就像剛剛樓處賓委員所說的"},{"start":1561.86,"end":1564.06,"text":"其實各位大委員們只要坐下來"},{"start":1564.26,"end":1566.26,"text":"就算你不是交通委員會的委員"},{"start":1566.46,"end":1568.06,"text":"你也可以提案修法"},{"start":1568.26,"end":1570.6599999999999,"text":"所以我要說這根本已經不是預算"},{"start":1570.86,"end":1572.6599999999999,"text":"可不可以變成光頭法的問題"},{"start":1572.86,"end":1573.86,"text":"當然"},{"start":1573.71,"end":1575.81,"text":"這件案子就是預算事項"},{"start":1576.6799999999998,"end":1578.8799999999999,"text":"按照光頭法第二條第四條規定"},{"start":1579.08,"end":1583.08,"text":"預算租稅新奉收入還有人事事項"},{"start":1583.28,"end":1586.08,"text":"不得作為光明投票之提案"},{"start":1586.28,"end":1587.8799999999999,"text":"所以自始至終的我要都說"},{"start":1588.08,"end":1590.08,"text":"這根本就不能作為公投的事項"},{"start":1590.28,"end":1591.48,"text":"但如果你們已經提了"},{"start":1591.6799999999998,"end":1593.6799999999998,"text":"我們就來看所謂的大立委可以修法"},{"start":1593.8799999999999,"end":1595.28,"text":"到底是可以修什麼法"},{"start":1595.6799999999998,"end":1598.6799999999998,"text":"再提高所謂交通違規罰款收入的運用事項"},{"start":1598.8799999999999,"end":1602.28,"text":"現行的法規叫做道路交通管理處罰條例"},{"start":1602.48,"end":1604.6799999999998,"text":"第九條第二項授權"},{"start":1604.78,"end":1606.18,"text":"並訂了子法叫什麼呢"},{"start":1606.38,"end":1609.98,"text":"叫道路交通違規罰款收入分配及運用辦法"},{"start":1610.18,"end":1611.5800000000002,"text":"這裡面就有強調"},{"start":1611.78,"end":1613.78,"text":"到底每一筆罰單收入"},{"start":1613.98,"end":1615.98,"text":"中央政府可以分得多少"},{"start":1616.18,"end":1617.98,"text":"地方政府可以分得多少"},{"start":1618.18,"end":1619.98,"text":"然後主責機關可以分得多少"},{"start":1620.18,"end":1620.98,"text":"我要提醒大家"},{"start":1621.18,"end":1622.98,"text":"目前按照相關的條例規定"},{"start":1623.18,"end":1627.5800000000002,"text":"75%的交通違規罰款收入"},{"start":1627.78,"end":1631.38,"text":"直轄市或是縣市政府舉發相關的案件"},{"start":1631.48,"end":1636.48,"text":"這裡面有75%可以分給各個直轄市縣市政府"},{"start":1636.68,"end":1638.48,"text":"也就是每100塊的罰單"},{"start":1638.68,"end":1641.2800000000002,"text":"有75是寄入地方政府的口袋"},{"start":1641.48,"end":1644.88,"text":"如果如同劉樹斌委員剛提案的說明裡面所說的"},{"start":1645.0800000000002,"end":1646.68,"text":"你們認為這75%"},{"start":1646.88,"end":1648.88,"text":"到底怎麼用各個縣市政府"},{"start":1649.0800000000002,"end":1653.68,"text":"沒有去投資所謂的道路交通安全基礎建設"},{"start":1653.88,"end":1655.68,"text":"沒有去補貼大眾運輸"},{"start":1655.88,"end":1658.88,"text":"沒有增加人民對於交通安全的可能性"},{"start":1658.98,"end":1662.18,"text":"其實修法把相關的比例做調整"},{"start":1662.38,"end":1665.98,"text":"甚至要求地方政府跟中央政府積極開會討論"},{"start":1666.18,"end":1669.5800000000002,"text":"如何把你們所在意的事情放入相關的執法當中"},{"start":1669.7800000000002,"end":1674.18,"text":"然後再透過執法要地方設立所謂的地方自治條例"},{"start":1674.38,"end":1678.7800000000002,"text":"這些事情明明就是中央的立法院加地方的民意機關"},{"start":1678.98,"end":1681.38,"text":"不論是所謂市政府等級的代表會"},{"start":1681.5800000000002,"end":1685.5800000000002,"text":"或者是議會等級的議員們都可以做這件事情"},{"start":1685.7800000000002,"end":1688.5800000000002,"text":"但我不知道為什麼民眾黨團不做就是不做"},{"start":1688.58,"end":1692.28,"text":"要不斷的做政治炒作這件事情真的非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":1692.48,"end":1694.6799999999998,"text":"再來我要說我剛剛所說的"},{"start":1694.8799999999999,"end":1698.48,"text":"所謂75%分配給地方政府這一件事情"},{"start":1698.6799999999998,"end":1701.28,"text":"我要說甚至回到直轄市"},{"start":1701.48,"end":1704.28,"text":"甚至有可能是99%留在地方"},{"start":1704.48,"end":1707.48,"text":"所以我不確定民眾黨團是沒有把握"},{"start":1707.6799999999998,"end":1710.28,"text":"請中央去跟地方政府談清楚"},{"start":1710.48,"end":1712.48,"text":"還是你們過去已經跟地方政府談了"},{"start":1712.6799999999998,"end":1716.48,"text":"又不要忘記了民眾黨有自己一個執政的縣市叫新竹市"},{"start":1716.58,"end":1719.38,"text":"我不確定高華安市長在這件事情上的態度"},{"start":1719.58,"end":1722.38,"text":"或者是高華安市長有沒有跟民眾黨團的"},{"start":1722.58,"end":1724.38,"text":"立法院黨團討論過這件事情"},{"start":1724.58,"end":1726.38,"text":"大家到底是哪裡覺得不可行"},{"start":1726.58,"end":1727.88,"text":"所以必須要透過公投"},{"start":1728.08,"end":1733.38,"text":"所以我要說我不希望今天我們被扣上反對維護交通"},{"start":1733.58,"end":1736.18,"text":"反對提高原本交通可能性的帽子"},{"start":1736.38,"end":1737.38,"text":"我要再一次強調"},{"start":1737.58,"end":1740.38,"text":"我要提的是這個公投提案本身"},{"start":1740.58,"end":1743.38,"text":"他就應該要在立法院透過現行的"},{"start":1743.48,"end":1745.88,"text":"現行的道路交通管制處罰條例"},{"start":1746.0800000000002,"end":1747.88,"text":"來解決相關的死法跟辦法"},{"start":1748.0800000000002,"end":1749.2800000000002,"text":"我剛剛說的非常的清楚"},{"start":1749.48,"end":1752.2800000000002,"text":"所以我要說這麼多這麼多的事情"},{"start":1752.48,"end":1754.0800000000002,"text":"在立法院我們就來做"},{"start":1754.2800000000002,"end":1755.68,"text":"做下來好好做"},{"start":1755.88,"end":1757.2800000000002,"text":"我們每一個月領人民的薪水"},{"start":1757.48,"end":1758.68,"text":"就是要做這些事情"},{"start":1758.88,"end":1761.68,"text":"更不要講現在有這麼多地方政府"},{"start":1761.88,"end":1764.0800000000002,"text":"他們拿了錢到底做了哪些事情"},{"start":1764.2800000000002,"end":1766.48,"text":"其實有各地的議會可以去監督"},{"start":1766.68,"end":1769.0800000000002,"text":"所以我不確定到底為什麼要有這個提案"},{"start":1769.2800000000002,"end":1772.0800000000002,"text":"但是請不要後續扣上民進黨團"},{"start":1772.1799999999998,"end":1776.1799999999998,"text":"反對相關原本交通促進的可能性"},{"start":1776.3799999999999,"end":1777.3799999999999,"text":"我們絕對支持"},{"start":1778.2199999999998,"end":1780.2199999999998,"text":"所以我要說這個提案"},{"start":1780.4199999999998,"end":1782.2199999999998,"text":"寫了非常多相關的提案說明"},{"start":1782.4199999999998,"end":1783.2199999999998,"text":"寫得樂樂等"},{"start":1783.4199999999998,"end":1785.2199999999998,"text":"但是就如同在你們提案的最後一頁"},{"start":1785.4199999999998,"end":1786.62,"text":"你們自己也寫得非常清楚"},{"start":1786.82,"end":1790.62,"text":"交通安全屬於地方治理重要職責之一"},{"start":1790.82,"end":1793.82,"text":"道路設計交通工程及用路環境"},{"start":1794.02,"end":1798.2199999999998,"text":"改善均需穩定且持續支柴原之支持"},{"start":1798.4199999999998,"end":1800.02,"text":"而且你前一句話又說"},{"start":1800.2199999999998,"end":1803.4199999999998,"text":"近期財政收支化分法完成修正"},{"start":1803.62,"end":1807.4199999999998,"text":"地方政府財政自主權的相關完成目標"},{"start":1807.42,"end":1809.92,"text":"希望改善地方長期財源不足的問題"},{"start":1810.1200000000001,"end":1811.1200000000001,"text":"不要讓了財化法"},{"start":1811.3200000000002,"end":1814.72,"text":"其實是讓各縣市政府拿走更多更多更多的錢"},{"start":1814.92,"end":1817.1200000000001,"text":"連你們的國民黨黨團總召傅崑起"},{"start":1817.3200000000002,"end":1820.52,"text":"都在地方上掛砍棒說他幫花蓮爭取到多少錢"},{"start":1820.72,"end":1823.1200000000001,"text":"我相信新北市也是基隆市也是"},{"start":1823.3200000000002,"end":1825.1200000000001,"text":"各縣市政府在新版"},{"start":1825.3200000000002,"end":1827.52,"text":"沒有經過民進黨團共同討論的"},{"start":1827.72,"end":1829.3200000000002,"text":"初爆的財化法通過之後"},{"start":1829.52,"end":1831.1200000000001,"text":"地方政府已經多了很多錢"},{"start":1831.3200000000002,"end":1833.3200000000002,"text":"當然未來如果留書兵的民眾黨團"},{"start":1833.52,"end":1834.92,"text":"認為應該更多的錢"},{"start":1835.1200000000001,"end":1836.72,"text":"投入地方的重要建設"},{"start":1836.82,"end":1839.82,"text":"交通建設基礎工程建設或是用路環境改善"},{"start":1840.02,"end":1842.6200000000001,"text":"就請回來立法院修法再次強調"},{"start":1842.82,"end":1844.22,"text":"就請回來立法院修法"},{"start":1844.42,"end":1846.82,"text":"不要把你自己該做的事情丟包給民意"},{"start":1847.02,"end":1847.82,"text":"甩鍋給民意"},{"start":1848.02,"end":1848.82,"text":"我要再次強調"},{"start":1849.02,"end":1852.82,"text":"這絕對是全台灣都有共識的民意跟討論內容"},{"start":1853.02,"end":1855.22,"text":"但是是不是真的該用公投"},{"start":1855.42,"end":1857.82,"text":"我要說回到立法院來上班"},{"start":1858.02,"end":1859.02,"text":"回到立法院來修法"},{"start":1859.22,"end":1861.02,"text":"回到立法院來開會才是正解"},{"start":1863.54,"end":1865.44,"text":"好 那各黨團"},{"start":1865.64,"end":1867.94,"text":"在沒有特別意見之後"},{"start":1868.14,"end":1869.3400000000001,"text":"分別表示意見"},{"start":1869.54,"end":1871.94,"text":"看起來應為達成共識"},{"start":1872.14,"end":1876.3400000000001,"text":"本案將依照本院相關議事規範進行處理"},{"start":1912.24,"end":1915.64,"text":"好 那接下來的話我們進行第二案"},{"start":1915.8400000000001,"end":1916.64,"text":"主題二"},{"start":1917.64,"end":1920.24,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團民進公投提案"},{"start":1920.44,"end":1924.0400000000002,"text":"主任為民是否同意政府將安樂死法治化"},{"start":1924.24,"end":1927.24,"text":"以保障生命自主權有前提提供"},{"start":1927.44,"end":1929.44,"text":"罹患難以治癒之疾病"},{"start":1929.64,"end":1931.44,"text":"與承受難以忍受痛苦者"},{"start":1931.64,"end":1933.44,"text":"在制度配套規範下"},{"start":1933.64,"end":1936.44,"text":"可依其自主意志進行安樂死"},{"start":1936.64,"end":1938.44,"text":"以達到尊嚴善終"},{"start":1938.64,"end":1939.8400000000001,"text":"請公決案"},{"start":1940.34,"end":1942.1399999999999,"text":"那麼本案前經"},{"start":1942.34,"end":1943.9399999999998,"text":"本會期第四次院會"},{"start":1944.1399999999999,"end":1945.34,"text":"絕對交付黨團學生"},{"start":1945.54,"end":1948.1399999999999,"text":"並為臺灣民眾黨黨團負責學生"},{"start":1948.34,"end":1949.9399999999998,"text":"那接下來的話"},{"start":1950.1399999999999,"end":1955.1399999999999,"text":"我們請這個提案的民眾黨黨團發表意見"},{"start":1956.53,"end":1958.13,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":1958.3300000000002,"end":1959.53,"text":"那各位委員"},{"start":1959.73,"end":1961.53,"text":"我們今天所提出來的"},{"start":1961.73,"end":1964.3300000000002,"text":"並不是一個公投提案而已"},{"start":1964.53,"end":1966.3300000000002,"text":"它更是臺灣社會不能夠再"},{"start":1966.53,"end":1968.93,"text":"迴避的一個生命議題"},{"start":1969.13,"end":1970.73,"text":"那有人會質疑說"},{"start":1970.93,"end":1974.73,"text":"既然立法院已經有安樂死或尊嚴善終的"},{"start":1974.93,"end":1976.73,"text":"相關法案在審查了"},{"start":1976.93,"end":1979.73,"text":"為什麼還要再提出公投的提案"},{"start":1979.93,"end":1981.3300000000002,"text":"那我要強調"},{"start":1981.53,"end":1984.13,"text":"公投跟立法並不衝突"},{"start":1984.63,"end":1988.0300000000002,"text":"因為立法決定的是制度如何的設計"},{"start":1988.23,"end":1991.0300000000002,"text":"那公投是決定人民是否"},{"start":1991.23,"end":1994.8300000000002,"text":"支持國家朝向安樂死法治化的"},{"start":1995.0300000000002,"end":1996.63,"text":"政策方向前進"},{"start":1996.8300000000002,"end":1999.0300000000002,"text":"那公投回答的是要不要做"},{"start":1999.23,"end":2002.23,"text":"那立法回答是要如何做"},{"start":2002.43,"end":2004.8300000000002,"text":"事實上我們看到的是在"},{"start":2005.0300000000002,"end":2007.0300000000002,"text":"相關法案提出多年"},{"start":2007.23,"end":2010.63,"text":"包括的是民眾黨跟國民黨的立委"},{"start":2010.8300000000002,"end":2012.8300000000002,"text":"曾經在2019年都提出了"},{"start":2013.73,"end":2014.9299999999998,"text":"尊嚴善終法"},{"start":2015.1299999999999,"end":2018.33,"text":"那去年的民進黨的陳冠廷委員"},{"start":2018.53,"end":2020.73,"text":"他也提出來了安樂死法"},{"start":2020.9299999999998,"end":2022.73,"text":"但是一直到"},{"start":2022.9299999999998,"end":2024.73,"text":"經過了這麼多年"},{"start":2024.9299999999998,"end":2026.73,"text":"一直到的是今年的"},{"start":2026.9299999999998,"end":2031.1299999999999,"text":"因為民眾黨提出來了這個公投案子之後"},{"start":2031.33,"end":2032.53,"text":"都還在"},{"start":2033.8,"end":2035,"text":"委員會的審查當中"},{"start":2035.2,"end":2037,"text":"委員會都還在委員會當中"},{"start":2037.2,"end":2040.4,"text":"直到上個禮拜還提出來這樣的一個"},{"start":2040.6000000000001,"end":2044.8,"text":"一個這個有相關公投的一個公聽會"},{"start":2045,"end":2047,"text":"還包括的審查的開始"},{"start":2047.2,"end":2049.2,"text":"那說實在還沒有再完成立法"},{"start":2049.4,"end":2050.4,"text":"要是沒有這樣的促進的話"},{"start":2050.6,"end":2053.6,"text":"這個可能就是又是旷日廢時"},{"start":2053.8,"end":2055,"text":"那我們最重要的是要面對"},{"start":2055.2,"end":2056.8,"text":"超高齡社會的來臨"},{"start":2057,"end":2058.8,"text":"醫療科技延長生命"},{"start":2059,"end":2060.6,"text":"卻可能延長痛苦"},{"start":2060.8,"end":2062.6,"text":"所以社會對生命自主"},{"start":2062.7,"end":2065.1,"text":"與尊嚴善終的討論越來越多"},{"start":2065.2999999999997,"end":2067.7,"text":"政府不能以在你說還在審議"},{"start":2067.9,"end":2071.2999999999997,"text":"作為延宕政策的這樣的一個理由"},{"start":2071.5,"end":2073.7,"text":"那我們看到是傅達仁先生"},{"start":2073.9,"end":2076.2999999999997,"text":"他從2018年他遠赴瑞士"},{"start":2076.5,"end":2078.2999999999997,"text":"尋求協助善終"},{"start":2078.5,"end":2080.5,"text":"到近期還有很多的國人"},{"start":2080.7,"end":2084.1,"text":"赴海外去尋求協助死亡的案例"},{"start":2084.2999999999997,"end":2086.2999999999997,"text":"再次引發了社會的關注"},{"start":2086.5,"end":2088.5,"text":"就顯示部分的民眾認為"},{"start":2088.7,"end":2090.9,"text":"現行的制度仍然無法的"},{"start":2091.4,"end":2094.6,"text":"去回應生命末期的一個需求"},{"start":2094.8,"end":2097.6,"text":"那雖然我國已經有"},{"start":2097.8,"end":2099.6,"text":"病人自主權利法"},{"start":2099.8,"end":2103,"text":"還有安寧緩和治療法的相關制度"},{"start":2103.2000000000003,"end":2107.2000000000003,"text":"但是它還是不能夠完全的去回應到"},{"start":2107.94,"end":2110.34,"text":"這個病患的自主跟家屬共識"},{"start":2110.54,"end":2113.34,"text":"及生命終點的選擇的一個實際的"},{"start":2113.54,"end":2114.7400000000002,"text":"一個需求"},{"start":2114.94,"end":2116.94,"text":"那在這邊我們也看到的是"},{"start":2117.1400000000003,"end":2118.54,"text":"因為公投的"},{"start":2118.7400000000002,"end":2122.54,"text":"因為目前的這個民意調查的"},{"start":2122.7400000000002,"end":2124.6400000000003,"text":"就從過去的民意調查"},{"start":2124.84,"end":2126.34,"text":"都已經有顯示出來是說"},{"start":2126.54,"end":2128.7400000000002,"text":"多數的民眾在持續的"},{"start":2128.94,"end":2130.44,"text":"在對特定條件之下"},{"start":2130.6400000000003,"end":2134.1400000000003,"text":"他是支持的建立協助死亡的制度"},{"start":2134.34,"end":2136.94,"text":"那社會對這個議題的討論的關注"},{"start":2137.04,"end":2138.84,"text":"也都是在持續的上升"},{"start":2139.04,"end":2142.2400000000002,"text":"那民眾黨我們提出來這個公投"},{"start":2142.44,"end":2144.84,"text":"不是在鼓勵要放棄生命"},{"start":2145.04,"end":2147.04,"text":"更不是要取代安寧緩和醫療"},{"start":2147.2400000000002,"end":2149.44,"text":"或者是病人的自主制度"},{"start":2149.64,"end":2152.2400000000002,"text":"而是希望在保障生命自主"},{"start":2152.44,"end":2154.2400000000002,"text":"嚴格的醫療評估"},{"start":2154.44,"end":2155.84,"text":"完善的倫理審查"},{"start":2156.04,"end":2157.84,"text":"及法律配套的前提之下來"},{"start":2158.04,"end":2160.04,"text":"由全民來共同決定"},{"start":2160.2400000000002,"end":2163.2400000000002,"text":"台灣是否應該推動安樂死的法治化"},{"start":2163.44,"end":2166.44,"text":"好那這裡面生命的重點"},{"start":2166.44,"end":2168.34,"text":"當然不應該是只有一個醫療的選擇"},{"start":2168.54,"end":2171.14,"text":"更應該有尊嚴的一個選擇"},{"start":2171.34,"end":2173.54,"text":"所以這麼重大的一個公共政策"},{"start":2173.7400000000002,"end":2176.34,"text":"值得交由全體國人去共同的討論"},{"start":2176.54,"end":2177.34,"text":"共同的決定"},{"start":2177.54,"end":2178.94,"text":"也讓立法權"},{"start":2179.14,"end":2182.14,"text":"立法擁有更堅實的民主正當性"},{"start":2182.34,"end":2184.54,"text":"才有可能達到"},{"start":2186.15,"end":2188.25,"text":"這個制度法治化的目的"},{"start":2188.4500000000003,"end":2188.9500000000003,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2190.49,"end":2194.79,"text":"好那接下來我們請民進黨黨團發表意見"},{"start":2196.77,"end":2198.67,"text":"因為剛剛是第一案是吧第二案"},{"start":2202.99,"end":2203.89,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":2209.88,"end":2210.6800000000003,"text":"就照順序啦"},{"start":2210.88,"end":2212.6800000000003,"text":"因為剛剛第一人是這樣子過來"},{"start":2212.88,"end":2214.28,"text":"所以第二人這樣過去謝謝"},{"start":2214.48,"end":2216.6800000000003,"text":"報告主席可是我想先照國民黨團的立場"},{"start":2218.64,"end":2219.14,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2223.19,"end":2224.3900000000003,"text":"因為第一人是這樣子"},{"start":2224.59,"end":2225.9900000000002,"text":"所以第二人是這樣的順序"},{"start":2226.19,"end":2226.9900000000002,"text":"好拜託謝謝"},{"start":2227.19,"end":2228.3900000000003,"text":"都你們講好來沒關係"},{"start":2229.17,"end":2229.87,"text":"我"},{"start":2231.83,"end":2232.33,"text":"好"},{"start":2234.62,"end":2236.62,"text":"我要說我剛為什麼要說"},{"start":2236.82,"end":2238.62,"text":"我想要先知道國民黨團的意見"},{"start":2238.82,"end":2240.82,"text":"其實剛剛劉樹斌委員自己也說了"},{"start":2241.02,"end":2244.12,"text":"修法這件事情從上一屆就委員提"},{"start":2244.32,"end":2247.02,"text":"那這一屆呢其實陳冠廷委員是最先提出來"},{"start":2247.22,"end":2248.82,"text":"甚至辦了公聽會辦了記者會"},{"start":2249.02,"end":2251.82,"text":"也積極的收集很多專家學者的意見"},{"start":2252.02,"end":2253.72,"text":"那我們真的不是很確定"},{"start":2253.92,"end":2256.42,"text":"到底民眾黨團現在提出這個公投案"},{"start":2256.62,"end":2258.92,"text":"是想要解決什麼樣的問題"},{"start":2259.12,"end":2262.12,"text":"說實話有非常多的民意"},{"start":2262.32,"end":2264.42,"text":"或者是學者專家團體"},{"start":2264.62,"end":2266.82,"text":"甚至是相關的人權團體"},{"start":2267.02,"end":2270.42,"text":"都會對安樂死這個議題提出自己的看法跟見解"},{"start":2270.62,"end":2273.92,"text":"甚至很多學者專家會針對國內外的相關案例"},{"start":2274.12,"end":2276.42,"text":"或者是國外在實行這麼多年之後"},{"start":2276.62,"end":2280.22,"text":"所收集到第一線正向的意見跟反向的意見"},{"start":2280.42,"end":2283.42,"text":"那我認為這些都是立法委員在修法的時候"},{"start":2283.62,"end":2285.42,"text":"必須要積極意識到同時"},{"start":2285.62,"end":2289.22,"text":"在討論的時候要視為非常重要的政策參考"},{"start":2289.42,"end":2291.42,"text":"所以如果有這麼多的政策參考"},{"start":2291.62,"end":2293.22,"text":"其實在立法院可以好好的討論"},{"start":2293.3199999999997,"end":2296.3199999999997,"text":"我想應該會是更完善的版本"},{"start":2296.52,"end":2299.3199999999997,"text":"但現在我要說因為安樂死的合法化"},{"start":2299.52,"end":2301.12,"text":"它涉及的病人自主的問題"},{"start":2301.3199999999997,"end":2303.52,"text":"生命保障的問題醫療倫理的問題"},{"start":2303.72,"end":2304.72,"text":"這麼多的問題"},{"start":2304.9199999999996,"end":2307.52,"text":"如果劉淑賓委員覺得民眾黨團覺得"},{"start":2307.72,"end":2311.3199999999997,"text":"透過公投就可以全部來解決這些問題"},{"start":2311.52,"end":2314.3199999999997,"text":"或者是討論生命終結的專業問題"},{"start":2314.52,"end":2317.3199999999997,"text":"如果真的認為交給公投決定是最好的方法"},{"start":2317.52,"end":2319.52,"text":"那我真的不確定我們立法委員"},{"start":2319.72,"end":2320.9199999999996,"text":"不論是有提案的黨團"},{"start":2321.12,"end":2322.12,"text":"或是有提案的個人"},{"start":2322.22,"end":2324.22,"text":"或是有召開記者會的這些委員們"},{"start":2324.42,"end":2327.22,"text":"我們花了這麼多時間收集意見是為了什麼"},{"start":2327.42,"end":2330.02,"text":"那我要說安樂死的合法化"},{"start":2330.22,"end":2331.22,"text":"它需要專業的討論"},{"start":2331.42,"end":2333.22,"text":"凝聚社會共識的這些時間"},{"start":2333.42,"end":2335.8199999999997,"text":"其實真的值得我們現在就開始做下來"},{"start":2336.02,"end":2336.62,"text":"好好討論"},{"start":2336.8199999999997,"end":2338.62,"text":"而且我剛剛已經強調陳冠廷委員"},{"start":2338.8199999999997,"end":2340.22,"text":"已經做了很多的公聽會"},{"start":2340.42,"end":2341.02,"text":"做了記者會"},{"start":2341.22,"end":2343.02,"text":"也做了非常多法案的研議跟討論"},{"start":2343.22,"end":2345.22,"text":"他也是民進黨團在這一屆率先"},{"start":2345.42,"end":2346.8199999999997,"text":"提出法案版本的委員"},{"start":2347.02,"end":2349.42,"text":"所以我真的不希望相關專業的議題"},{"start":2349.62,"end":2351.8199999999997,"text":"生命尊嚴的議題被過度的簡化"},{"start":2351.82,"end":2354.7200000000003,"text":"讓大家最後只對於安樂死和法化的印象"},{"start":2354.92,"end":2356.7200000000003,"text":"剩下一些片段的"},{"start":2356.92,"end":2359.52,"text":"不論是美好或者是不美好的印象"},{"start":2359.7200000000003,"end":2361.7200000000003,"text":"所以我認為在立法院"},{"start":2361.92,"end":2363.1200000000003,"text":"為什麼不好好討論這件事情"},{"start":2363.32,"end":2364.7200000000003,"text":"我還是感到非常的納悶"},{"start":2364.92,"end":2366.7200000000003,"text":"再來我想要舉一個例子就好"},{"start":2366.92,"end":2367.92,"text":"我們就舉一個例子來說"},{"start":2368.1200000000003,"end":2369.92,"text":"光是我等一下舉的這個例子"},{"start":2370.1200000000003,"end":2372.92,"text":"可能就真的會在立法院跟行政機關"},{"start":2373.1200000000003,"end":2375.1200000000003,"text":"在專家學者或是人權團體上"},{"start":2375.32,"end":2377.92,"text":"創造出非常大量的討論"},{"start":2378.1200000000003,"end":2380.32,"text":"在刑法第275條規定"},{"start":2380.42,"end":2382.82,"text":"教唆或幫助他人使之自殺"},{"start":2383.02,"end":2385.82,"text":"或受其嘱托獲得其承諾而殺之者"},{"start":2386.02,"end":2388.82,"text":"處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2389.02,"end":2391.02,"text":"所以如果遇上安樂死和法化"},{"start":2391.2200000000003,"end":2393.2200000000003,"text":"那應該怎麼調整這個刑法呢"},{"start":2393.42,"end":2396.42,"text":"或者是如果因為醫生的重大過失"},{"start":2396.6200000000003,"end":2398.42,"text":"造成病人的重大損害"},{"start":2398.6200000000003,"end":2401.2200000000003,"text":"卻並沒有死亡又應該如何究責"},{"start":2401.42,"end":2403.6200000000003,"text":"是完全失去免責論以殺人罪"},{"start":2403.82,"end":2404.82,"text":"或是加工自殺罪"},{"start":2405.02,"end":2406.6200000000003,"text":"或只是過失自死罪"},{"start":2406.82,"end":2408.82,"text":"在民事上甚至也需要討論"},{"start":2409.02,"end":2409.82,"text":"要不要賠償"},{"start":2410.32,"end":2412.82,"text":"所以我要講的是光是就這個案例"},{"start":2413.02,"end":2415.32,"text":"跟這個修法我們就有非常多"},{"start":2415.52,"end":2417.7200000000003,"text":"要把刑法或是相關法律專家"},{"start":2417.92,"end":2419.32,"text":"帶進來這個現場討論"},{"start":2419.52,"end":2420.7200000000003,"text":"另外我要提醒大家"},{"start":2420.92,"end":2423.52,"text":"包含醫院人的自願性意識能力"},{"start":2423.7200000000003,"end":2425.32,"text":"還有法定疾病的條件"},{"start":2425.52,"end":2428.32,"text":"還有執行前的確認相關核心要件"},{"start":2428.52,"end":2430.1200000000003,"text":"要如何確認要如何訂定"},{"start":2430.32,"end":2432.32,"text":"實施安樂死的醫療院所跟醫生"},{"start":2432.52,"end":2433.7200000000003,"text":"如果又有過失未來"},{"start":2433.92,"end":2435.32,"text":"要該如何認定跟究責"},{"start":2435.52,"end":2438.1200000000003,"text":"那如果用公投所謂多數決"},{"start":2438.12,"end":2440.12,"text":"或是共識決的方法來決定"},{"start":2440.3199999999997,"end":2441.42,"text":"這些法律要件"},{"start":2441.62,"end":2443.12,"text":"我會說非常的荒謬"},{"start":2443.3199999999997,"end":2446.12,"text":"所以我想已經很多很多的學者專家"},{"start":2446.3199999999997,"end":2448.42,"text":"已經提出建議跟討論"},{"start":2448.62,"end":2451.42,"text":"大家對於安樂死在現在的台灣社會"},{"start":2451.62,"end":2453.92,"text":"真的是可以開啟討論"},{"start":2454.12,"end":2456.62,"text":"而且大家可能也有高度的共識"},{"start":2456.8199999999997,"end":2458.62,"text":"的前提情況下"},{"start":2459.28,"end":2461.78,"text":"請大家不要用公投的方法來"},{"start":2463.15,"end":2464.65,"text":"這個這麼專業的議題"},{"start":2464.85,"end":2465.9500000000003,"text":"甚至我要說"},{"start":2466.15,"end":2467.4500000000003,"text":"我要舉一個例子"},{"start":2467.65,"end":2469.15,"text":"之前我們在教文發生過"},{"start":2469.35,"end":2473.4500000000003,"text":"光是學輔法其實就跨了不同的會期在討論"},{"start":2473.65,"end":2475.35,"text":"因為學輔法當時在討論"},{"start":2475.55,"end":2476.4500000000003,"text":"花這麼多時間"},{"start":2476.65,"end":2478.25,"text":"就是來自於第一線現場"},{"start":2478.4500000000003,"end":2479.9500000000003,"text":"不論是專業輔導老師"},{"start":2480.15,"end":2481.4500000000003,"text":"或者是學校輔導老師"},{"start":2481.65,"end":2484.15,"text":"或者是所謂第三級輔導的"},{"start":2484.35,"end":2485.55,"text":"相關專業輔導人員"},{"start":2485.75,"end":2487.05,"text":"相關的工作分配"},{"start":2487.25,"end":2488.65,"text":"我們就花了這麼多時間"},{"start":2488.85,"end":2490.55,"text":"只是為了修改相關法條"},{"start":2490.75,"end":2491.65,"text":"所以我要說"},{"start":2491.65,"end":2493.65,"text":"這麼多草案這麼多內容"},{"start":2493.85,"end":2495.15,"text":"這麼多細節需要討論"},{"start":2495.35,"end":2497.15,"text":"是不是真的適合付諸公投"},{"start":2497.35,"end":2499.15,"text":"我請大家要再度的三思"},{"start":2500.96,"end":2504.46,"text":"我們介紹新到場的范元芳委員"},{"start":2507.23,"end":2510.73,"text":"接下來我們請這個國民黨黨團發表意見"},{"start":2516.26,"end":2518.26,"text":"我不知道說我們各黨團的代表出來"},{"start":2518.46,"end":2520.26,"text":"有沒有看過這樣子的公投主文"},{"start":2520.46,"end":2522.26,"text":"他其實就寫很清楚"},{"start":2522.46,"end":2525.76,"text":"是否同意政府把安樂死法治化"},{"start":2525.96,"end":2528.26,"text":"以保障生命自主權為前提"},{"start":2528.46,"end":2531.76,"text":"提供民化難以治癒的疾病"},{"start":2531.96,"end":2533.96,"text":"跟承受難以忍受的痛苦者"},{"start":2534.1600000000003,"end":2535.76,"text":"在制度配套規範下"},{"start":2535.96,"end":2538.76,"text":"可依其自主意志進行安樂死"},{"start":2538.96,"end":2540.26,"text":"以達到尊嚴善終"},{"start":2540.46,"end":2542.76,"text":"尊嚴善終是我們"},{"start":2542.96,"end":2545.26,"text":"這民眾黨團提出來的一個目的"},{"start":2545.76,"end":2546.76,"text":"最主要他就是希望"},{"start":2546.96,"end":2548.76,"text":"能夠把這件事情法治化"},{"start":2548.96,"end":2550.76,"text":"並且在這個公投過程"},{"start":2550.96,"end":2551.76,"text":"通過之後"},{"start":2551.96,"end":2553.26,"text":"如果說民眾真的認同"},{"start":2553.46,"end":2554.76,"text":"這樣的一個想法的話"},{"start":2554.96,"end":2557.76,"text":"還要後續的制度配套來去做規範"},{"start":2560.13,"end":2561.13,"text":"這就是現在為什麼"},{"start":2561.33,"end":2563.13,"text":"會走到公投的一個地步"},{"start":2563.33,"end":2566.13,"text":"我其實覺得說今天出席"},{"start":2566.33,"end":2567.63,"text":"也聽到我們現在執政黨的"},{"start":2567.83,"end":2570.63,"text":"黨團代表這邊出來的發言"},{"start":2570.83,"end":2572.13,"text":"好像每一個都講是說"},{"start":2572.33,"end":2573.13,"text":"立法院可以討論"},{"start":2573.33,"end":2574.13,"text":"立法院可以溝通"},{"start":2574.33,"end":2575.63,"text":"但是站著說話不腰疼"},{"start":2575.83,"end":2577.13,"text":"說實在話"},{"start":2578.76,"end":2579.76,"text":"我很尊重你"},{"start":2579.96,"end":2580.76,"text":"但是剛剛你發言的時候"},{"start":2580.96,"end":2582.76,"text":"我也沒有做這樣的一個干擾"},{"start":2582.96,"end":2584.76,"text":"但是我很實在話講"},{"start":2586.32,"end":2587.32,"text":"本席的提案也好"},{"start":2587.52,"end":2588.32,"text":"或是說這每一個提案"},{"start":2588.52,"end":2589.52,"text":"你其實都講得非常清楚"},{"start":2589.7200000000003,"end":2591.02,"text":"都說這可以討論"},{"start":2591.2200000000003,"end":2591.82,"text":"可以共識"},{"start":2592.02,"end":2594.32,"text":"可是就拿這個安樂舍這個案件"},{"start":2594.52,"end":2595.32,"text":"我也沒有看過"},{"start":2595.52,"end":2597.52,"text":"民進黨團51個立法委員"},{"start":2597.7200000000003,"end":2599.02,"text":"你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":2599.2200000000003,"end":2600.82,"text":"或是說你們在司法法治委員會"},{"start":2601.02,"end":2601.82,"text":"裡面有招委"},{"start":2602.02,"end":2603.1200000000003,"text":"有認認真真的"},{"start":2603.32,"end":2605.02,"text":"經過這個案要來做排審嗎"},{"start":2605.2200000000003,"end":2606.32,"text":"好像看起來也沒有"},{"start":2607.45,"end":2609.45,"text":"所以說其實為什麼會讓"},{"start":2609.6499999999996,"end":2610.95,"text":"到最後逼著就是說"},{"start":2611.1499999999996,"end":2611.95,"text":"不管是立法院"},{"start":2612.1499999999996,"end":2614.6499999999996,"text":"不管是我們要去提出這個公投"},{"start":2614.85,"end":2616.95,"text":"要回歸到人民的重大政策"},{"start":2617.1499999999996,"end":2617.95,"text":"創制的一個"},{"start":2619.47,"end":2620.47,"text":"很簡單"},{"start":2620.6699999999996,"end":2622.47,"text":"現在手握權力的執政黨"},{"start":2622.6699999999996,"end":2624.47,"text":"手握權力的政府不作為"},{"start":2624.95,"end":2626.45,"text":"逼著人民要救濟"},{"start":2626.6499999999996,"end":2627.95,"text":"逼著人民要自救"},{"start":2628.8,"end":2630.3,"text":"執政黨可以做什麼事情"},{"start":2630.5,"end":2631.8,"text":"立法院三讀通過的法令"},{"start":2632,"end":2632.8,"text":"它可以行政院長"},{"start":2633,"end":2634.8,"text":"還可以違法的選擇不附屬"},{"start":2635,"end":2636.3,"text":"而且不附屬不是一案"},{"start":2636.5,"end":2637.8,"text":"不是兩案是五個案"},{"start":2638,"end":2639.3,"text":"至少五個案不附屬"},{"start":2639.5,"end":2640.8,"text":"也可以選擇不附屬以外"},{"start":2641,"end":2642.3,"text":"之後還可以不執行"},{"start":2643.26,"end":2644.76,"text":"還可以選擇"},{"start":2644.96,"end":2646.26,"text":"複裔完之後被否決了"},{"start":2646.46,"end":2647.76,"text":"還可以選擇不再進行"},{"start":2647.96,"end":2650.26,"text":"所以說這些其實都是很荒謬的事情"},{"start":2650.46,"end":2651.76,"text":"那荒謬的事情"},{"start":2651.96,"end":2653.26,"text":"我們就認為"},{"start":2653.46,"end":2655.76,"text":"有權力的人應該要負起責任"},{"start":2657.2,"end":2658.2,"text":"不管是安樂死"},{"start":2658.3999999999996,"end":2659.7,"text":"不管是剛剛提到的一個交通法案"},{"start":2659.8999999999996,"end":2661.2,"text":"還是說本席所提的"},{"start":2661.3999999999996,"end":2662.7,"text":"不管變形打擊詐騙"},{"start":2662.8999999999996,"end":2665.2,"text":"還是相關廢死的一個議題"},{"start":2665.3999999999996,"end":2666.7,"text":"其實很簡單的道理"},{"start":2668.3,"end":2669.8,"text":"都是回歸到就是說"},{"start":2670,"end":2671.8,"text":"政府到底有沒有解決了"},{"start":2672,"end":2672.8,"text":"現在人民的問題"},{"start":2673.3,"end":2676.3,"text":"如果說現在性侵虐童詐騙"},{"start":2676.5,"end":2677.8,"text":"案件數很少"},{"start":2678,"end":2680.3,"text":"甚至這個犯罪都已經沒有那麼重大了"},{"start":2681.25,"end":2682.25,"text":"鬼才有公投"},{"start":2683,"end":2683.5,"text":"人民"},{"start":2684.67,"end":2686.67,"text":"不會有這樣子的一個高度的共識"},{"start":2686.87,"end":2689.17,"text":"但是就是因為這一些問題"},{"start":2689.37,"end":2692.17,"text":"長久累積在台灣社會裡面"},{"start":2692.37,"end":2694.17,"text":"可是都沒有獲得解決"},{"start":2695.46,"end":2696.46,"text":"首當其衝"},{"start":2697.38,"end":2698.88,"text":"執政了十年"},{"start":2699.08,"end":2700.38,"text":"甚至有八年國會"},{"start":2700.58,"end":2702.08,"text":"都是多數完全執政"},{"start":2702.28,"end":2703.88,"text":"完全負責的民進黨"},{"start":2704.08,"end":2705.88,"text":"你解決這些問題也沒有"},{"start":2707.16,"end":2708.16,"text":"過去十年裡面"},{"start":2708.3599999999997,"end":2709.66,"text":"有八年都是完全執政"},{"start":2709.8599999999997,"end":2710.66,"text":"完全負責"},{"start":2710.8599999999997,"end":2712.16,"text":"結果這些問題還是持續存在"},{"start":2712.3599999999997,"end":2713.66,"text":"結果你現在告訴我們是說"},{"start":2713.8599999999997,"end":2715.16,"text":"不一定要公投"},{"start":2715.3599999999997,"end":2717.16,"text":"我們可以立法院再討論"},{"start":2717.3599999999997,"end":2718.16,"text":"我也想要訪問"},{"start":2718.3599999999997,"end":2720.66,"text":"過去八年你完全執政的時候"},{"start":2720.8599999999997,"end":2721.66,"text":"你們在幹嘛"},{"start":2722.51,"end":2724.01,"text":"不是很荒謬的事情嗎"},{"start":2725.32,"end":2726.32,"text":"所以我現在講是說"},{"start":2726.52,"end":2727.82,"text":"本席尊重"},{"start":2728.02,"end":2729.82,"text":"因為這一個案件"},{"start":2730.02,"end":2732.32,"text":"它是社會都有各自的立場"},{"start":2733.66,"end":2734.66,"text":"很難去說服"},{"start":2734.8599999999997,"end":2735.66,"text":"立場不同的人"},{"start":2735.8599999999997,"end":2737.16,"text":"你真的很難去說服"},{"start":2737.3599999999997,"end":2739.66,"text":"所以回歸到民主的核心價值"},{"start":2739.8599999999997,"end":2741.66,"text":"就是公投的重大政策創制"},{"start":2743.44,"end":2745.44,"text":"兩千三百五十萬人共同來決定"},{"start":2745.64,"end":2746.44,"text":"你認不認為說"},{"start":2746.64,"end":2747.44,"text":"應該要在台灣社會"},{"start":2747.64,"end":2748.94,"text":"實行這樣的一個制度"},{"start":2750.13,"end":2752.13,"text":"如果公平公正的公投"},{"start":2752.33,"end":2753.13,"text":"投過了之後"},{"start":2754.16,"end":2756.16,"text":"服從多數多數尊重少數"},{"start":2756.3599999999997,"end":2759.16,"text":"這個結果就是後續政府"},{"start":2759.3599999999997,"end":2761.16,"text":"跟立法部門行政部門"},{"start":2761.3599999999997,"end":2763.16,"text":"應該要共同去遵守跟重視的"},{"start":2763.3599999999997,"end":2766.16,"text":"就是後續可以進入到實質的"},{"start":2766.3599999999997,"end":2767.16,"text":"如果說通過"},{"start":2767.3599999999997,"end":2768.3599999999997,"text":"就可以實質的"},{"start":2768.56,"end":2770.16,"text":"法務部門也有責任"},{"start":2770.3599999999997,"end":2772.66,"text":"要提出法務部門的修法版本"},{"start":2772.8599999999997,"end":2774.66,"text":"立法院各黨團"},{"start":2774.8599999999997,"end":2777.66,"text":"也就要積極的呼應民意"},{"start":2777.8599999999997,"end":2779.16,"text":"提出相關的修法版本"},{"start":2779.3599999999997,"end":2781.16,"text":"到時候大家都不能迴避"},{"start":2781.3599999999997,"end":2782.3599999999997,"text":"但如果說"},{"start":2782.86,"end":2783.86,"text":"這個公投成案之後"},{"start":2784.06,"end":2785.86,"text":"到時候人民選擇了不通過"},{"start":2786.06,"end":2787.86,"text":"那代表台灣社會"},{"start":2788.06,"end":2790.36,"text":"但目前為止是大多數人不支持"},{"start":2790.56,"end":2792.36,"text":"這樣的一個制度在台灣實施"},{"start":2792.56,"end":2794.36,"text":"那行政部門立法部門"},{"start":2794.56,"end":2796.36,"text":"當然也就可以再繼續"},{"start":2796.96,"end":2797.46,"text":"不管是"},{"start":2799,"end":2801,"text":"再繼續依照現行法令來去做"},{"start":2801.2,"end":2803,"text":"來去做後續的一個配套"},{"start":2803.74,"end":2805.74,"text":"所以我想很簡單的道理"},{"start":2805.9399999999996,"end":2808.24,"text":"今天是草野協商不是練口才"},{"start":2808.4399999999996,"end":2810.9399999999996,"text":"也不是說大家在比賽這個演講"},{"start":2811.14,"end":2812.74,"text":"我是說如果說協商"},{"start":2812.9399999999996,"end":2814.54,"text":"各黨團代表有共識"},{"start":2814.74,"end":2815.9399999999996,"text":"可以多提出來是說"},{"start":2816.14,"end":2817.4399999999996,"text":"到底我們可以怎麼樣進行"},{"start":2817.64,"end":2818.9399999999996,"text":"如果說大家就只是"},{"start":2819.14,"end":2820.4399999999996,"text":"你把你的意見表達完"},{"start":2820.64,"end":2821.74,"text":"我們把我們的意見表達完"},{"start":2821.9399999999996,"end":2822.9399999999996,"text":"然後就結束"},{"start":2823.14,"end":2824.74,"text":"那這樣子我覺得也很可惜"},{"start":2824.9399999999996,"end":2826.14,"text":"所以我聽了半天之後"},{"start":2826.3399999999997,"end":2826.9399999999996,"text":"我也不懂"},{"start":2827.14,"end":2827.9399999999996,"text":"到底民進黨團"},{"start":2828.14,"end":2829.9399999999996,"text":"對於這幾個案件的立場是什麼"},{"start":2831.98,"end":2832.68,"text":"都看來了"},{"start":2833.7799999999997,"end":2836.2799999999997,"text":"已經一開始協商就已經決定了"},{"start":2836.48,"end":2838.08,"text":"所以說我想我還是表達"},{"start":2838.2799999999997,"end":2840.08,"text":"我覺得每一個案件"},{"start":2840.2799999999997,"end":2843.7799999999997,"text":"都是台灣社會應該要去解決的問題"},{"start":2843.98,"end":2845.7799999999997,"text":"而為什麼會有這項問題"},{"start":2845.98,"end":2849.08,"text":"就是因為過去政府帶度不處理"},{"start":2849.2799999999997,"end":2850.58,"text":"當手握權力的政府"},{"start":2850.7799999999997,"end":2852.2799999999997,"text":"不處理這些問題的時候"},{"start":2852.48,"end":2857.2799999999997,"text":"人民透過重大政策創制的公投精神"},{"start":2857.48,"end":2860.2799999999997,"text":"來去表達直接的民意"},{"start":2860.48,"end":2863.08,"text":"讓政府讓立法部門"},{"start":2863.08,"end":2863.7799999999997,"text":"不敢帶度"},{"start":2863.98,"end":2868.18,"text":"能夠真正積極的回應主流民意"},{"start":2868.38,"end":2868.98,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":2871.14,"end":2871.64,"text":"好"},{"start":2871.99,"end":2875.49,"text":"我們請讓范委員先好"},{"start":2876.39,"end":2877.89,"text":"等一下是蘇彬委員"},{"start":2879.36,"end":2883.56,"text":"我想剛剛陳培委員已經有把我們黨團"},{"start":2883.76,"end":2887.06,"text":"對這個安樂死這個公投案的立場"},{"start":2887.26,"end":2888.56,"text":"有做基本的說明"},{"start":2888.76,"end":2890.36,"text":"那因為我比較晚到"},{"start":2890.56,"end":2892.36,"text":"我想要回應的事情是"},{"start":2892.56,"end":2894.96,"text":"好像這裡面有一些誤解"},{"start":2895.1600000000003,"end":2896.56,"text":"或者有一些批評"},{"start":2896.76,"end":2898.56,"text":"那我個人在立法院"},{"start":2898.76,"end":2900.36,"text":"這是第六年不是很能接受"},{"start":2900.56,"end":2903.36,"text":"我想安樂死其實這個議題"},{"start":2903.56,"end":2906.36,"text":"像陳冠廷立委找我連署的時候"},{"start":2906.56,"end":2907.36,"text":"我就有連署"},{"start":2907.46,"end":2909.46,"text":"因為我的確有部分的支持者"},{"start":2909.6600000000003,"end":2911.26,"text":"我聽到他們的需求"},{"start":2911.46,"end":2914.6600000000003,"text":"可是我也有聽到我的不同的支持者"},{"start":2914.86,"end":2916.6600000000003,"text":"從宗教或者其他的理由"},{"start":2916.86,"end":2920.26,"text":"也有一些些甚至仗權團體"},{"start":2920.46,"end":2921.86,"text":"也有一些些的擔憂"},{"start":2922.06,"end":2925.06,"text":"所以我覺得它是一個非常值得討論的議題"},{"start":2925.26,"end":2927.6600000000003,"text":"那可是如何在推動的過程中"},{"start":2927.86,"end":2930.26,"text":"讓有擔憂的人不再擔憂"},{"start":2930.46,"end":2931.86,"text":"我覺得也非常的關鍵"},{"start":2932.06,"end":2933.46,"text":"那上一屆"},{"start":2933.6600000000003,"end":2935.26,"text":"雖然民進黨是多數"},{"start":2935.36,"end":2937.5600000000004,"text":"可是我們知道在未還委員會"},{"start":2937.76,"end":2942.96,"text":"就是主導這個安樂死的審查委員會"},{"start":2943.1600000000003,"end":2946.36,"text":"那其實反對黨也有公平的機會單人找委"},{"start":2946.5600000000004,"end":2949.36,"text":"我並沒有看到反對黨有任何人排案"},{"start":2949.5600000000004,"end":2951.1600000000003,"text":"甚至我現在沒有辦法回想"},{"start":2951.36,"end":2954.6600000000003,"text":"就是說上一屆有誰提出了這個法案"},{"start":2954.86,"end":2957.5600000000004,"text":"那這一屆至少我看到陳冠廷委員"},{"start":2957.76,"end":2958.5600000000004,"text":"他找我連署的時候"},{"start":2958.76,"end":2960.36,"text":"民進黨這邊有18個人"},{"start":2960.5600000000004,"end":2962.76,"text":"連署他的安樂死法草案"},{"start":2963.26,"end":2966.86,"text":"然後民眾黨團有尊嚴善終法草案"},{"start":2967.0600000000004,"end":2968.26,"text":"那我們也看到"},{"start":2968.46,"end":2969.86,"text":"今年4月14號"},{"start":2970.0600000000004,"end":2972.86,"text":"民眾黨團召開安樂死討論公聽會"},{"start":2973.0600000000004,"end":2975.36,"text":"陳冠廷立委4月29號"},{"start":2975.5600000000004,"end":2979.6600000000003,"text":"他也有召開安樂死法草案討論座談會"},{"start":2979.86,"end":2982.0600000000004,"text":"民進黨有王世堅委員"},{"start":2982.26,"end":2983.26,"text":"蔡宇委員"},{"start":2983.46,"end":2984.46,"text":"莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":2984.6600000000003,"end":2987.26,"text":"那他也盡量有跨黨派的推動"},{"start":2987.46,"end":2988.6600000000003,"text":"還有王安祥委員"},{"start":2988.86,"end":2991.0600000000004,"text":"國民黨有陳金輝委員到"},{"start":2992.0299999999997,"end":2995.0299999999997,"text":"可是這個啟動跟對話才剛開始"},{"start":2995.23,"end":3000.0299999999997,"text":"7月14號民眾黨團就提這個安樂死公投案"},{"start":3000.23,"end":3001.5299999999997,"text":"然後競富而賭"},{"start":3001.73,"end":3003.0299999999997,"text":"所以我們今天才會協商"},{"start":3003.23,"end":3005.43,"text":"我知道7月30號的時候"},{"start":3005.6299999999997,"end":3008.23,"text":"衛環委員會也有排詢答"},{"start":3008.43,"end":3009.83,"text":"那我想講的事情是"},{"start":3010.9,"end":3012.1000000000004,"text":"公投的精神"},{"start":3012.3,"end":3014.1000000000004,"text":"我們其實一直都支持"},{"start":3014.3,"end":3016.5,"text":"我自己過去也一直參與"},{"start":3016.7000000000003,"end":3018.9,"text":"甚至參加過苦行等等"},{"start":3019.1000000000004,"end":3020.1000000000004,"text":"希望有公投"},{"start":3020.3,"end":3022.9,"text":"但是公投走到現在我們也發現"},{"start":3023.1000000000004,"end":3025.9,"text":"如果公投單獨投票的時候"},{"start":3026.1000000000004,"end":3028.9,"text":"議題比較容易被討論清楚"},{"start":3029.1000000000004,"end":3031.6000000000004,"text":"如果並在大選一起辦的時候"},{"start":3031.8,"end":3033.8,"text":"公投很容易流為"},{"start":3034,"end":3035.4,"text":"就是操縱選舉"},{"start":3035.6000000000004,"end":3036.9,"text":"或者是那個討論"},{"start":3037.1000000000004,"end":3038.7000000000003,"text":"常常會是二分法"},{"start":3038.7999999999997,"end":3040.7999999999997,"text":"要求政治人物表態"},{"start":3041,"end":3043.3999999999996,"text":"所以我們在公投法的過程中"},{"start":3043.6,"end":3045.7999999999997,"text":"經歷了公投不要綁大選"},{"start":3046,"end":3048.3999999999996,"text":"但是現在我們這個"},{"start":3048.6,"end":3052.7999999999997,"text":"立法院的多數又把它改成公投要綁大選"},{"start":3053,"end":3055,"text":"那我對這個公投要綁大選"},{"start":3055.2,"end":3056.2,"text":"其實很有興趣"},{"start":3056.3999999999996,"end":3058,"text":"就去做了一些跨國的研究"},{"start":3058.2,"end":3063,"text":"我發現在比較成熟的民主國家"},{"start":3063.2,"end":3065,"text":"公投的歷史比較久的國家"},{"start":3065.2,"end":3067.7999999999997,"text":"幾乎設計上都是分開的"},{"start":3068.1000000000004,"end":3069.5,"text":"就是公投不綁大選"},{"start":3069.7000000000003,"end":3072.9,"text":"因為他們認為公投是民眾的權利"},{"start":3073.1000000000004,"end":3077.3,"text":"能夠把立法院推不動監控的東西"},{"start":3077.5,"end":3080.1000000000004,"text":"透過公投好好的討論好好的辯論"},{"start":3080.7799999999997,"end":3083.7799999999997,"text":"但是如果跟大選綁在一起的話"},{"start":3083.98,"end":3086.18,"text":"就會流為選舉的操作"},{"start":3086.3799999999997,"end":3088.18,"text":"逼迫候選人表態"},{"start":3088.3799999999997,"end":3091.58,"text":"反而那個議題沒有辦法好好討論"},{"start":3091.7799999999997,"end":3094.3799999999997,"text":"甚至會傷害這個議題本身"},{"start":3094.58,"end":3098.58,"text":"所以如果大家去看歐洲的民主國家的設計"},{"start":3098.7799999999997,"end":3100.18,"text":"那幾乎都是分開的"},{"start":3101.06,"end":3102.86,"text":"可是我們現在面臨到的是"},{"start":3103.06,"end":3105.86,"text":"這個案子很可能就是年底就要公投"},{"start":3106.06,"end":3108.86,"text":"而且甚至我們反對黨還提案"},{"start":3109.06,"end":3111.86,"text":"說選前幾個月之內"},{"start":3112.06,"end":3114.46,"text":"就還可以再增加公投數"},{"start":3114.66,"end":3116.06,"text":"所以現在我們要處理的"},{"start":3116.26,"end":3118.46,"text":"還有這個選票上公投案"},{"start":3118.66,"end":3120.86,"text":"是不是要放在同一張選票"},{"start":3121.06,"end":3122.86,"text":"然後都是禁忽而讀"},{"start":3123.06,"end":3125.86,"text":"沒有辦法在委員會中好好的討論"},{"start":3126.06,"end":3127.06,"text":"那我真的覺得"},{"start":3127.26,"end":3130.26,"text":"立法委員應該要有能力"},{"start":3130.36,"end":3133.36,"text":"先在委員會中好好討論"},{"start":3133.5600000000004,"end":3135.5600000000004,"text":"把民眾支持的理由"},{"start":3135.76,"end":3138.36,"text":"跟某些民眾擔憂的理由"},{"start":3138.5600000000004,"end":3139.5600000000004,"text":"用法條"},{"start":3139.76,"end":3142.36,"text":"用遊說的方式好好處理"},{"start":3142.5600000000004,"end":3144.96,"text":"那如果這些工作都沒有先做"},{"start":3145.1600000000003,"end":3146.5600000000004,"text":"然後就隨便指責說"},{"start":3146.76,"end":3147.96,"text":"是因為誰執政"},{"start":3148.1600000000003,"end":3149.36,"text":"然後誰怎麼樣"},{"start":3149.5600000000004,"end":3151.1600000000003,"text":"然後我們今天被迫公投"},{"start":3151.36,"end":3155.1600000000003,"text":"我真的覺得這都是眼人耳目的說法"},{"start":3155.36,"end":3158.36,"text":"因為民進黨在立法院少數"},{"start":3158.5600000000004,"end":3159.76,"text":"至少過去這"},{"start":3160.48,"end":3161.38,"text":"兩年半"},{"start":3162.0299999999997,"end":3163.83,"text":"除了我剛剛講的這幾個部分"},{"start":3164.0299999999997,"end":3166.43,"text":"我沒有看到真的有人已經"},{"start":3166.6299999999997,"end":3168.73,"text":"這麼認真的推這個安樂死的法案"},{"start":3168.93,"end":3169.73,"text":"推不動"},{"start":3169.93,"end":3171.23,"text":"那如果這樣子我就會覺得"},{"start":3171.43,"end":3172.43,"text":"這個公投有道理"},{"start":3172.6299999999997,"end":3173.83,"text":"而且我也要再提"},{"start":3174.0299999999997,"end":3175.73,"text":"其實支持安樂死"},{"start":3175.93,"end":3178.73,"text":"跟反對安樂死法案的法制化的"},{"start":3178.93,"end":3181.33,"text":"它不是一個政黨的界線"},{"start":3181.5299999999997,"end":3183.1299999999997,"text":"每個政黨中都有人"},{"start":3183.33,"end":3184.43,"text":"支持者有人支持"},{"start":3184.6299999999997,"end":3185.43,"text":"有人反對"},{"start":3185.6299999999997,"end":3187.73,"text":"那他們關心的理由"},{"start":3187.93,"end":3190.6299999999997,"text":"都必須要好好被處置"},{"start":3190.63,"end":3191.83,"text":"我舉個例子"},{"start":3192.03,"end":3193.63,"text":"就在我發言前"},{"start":3193.83,"end":3196.23,"text":"戰權團體的自立生活聯盟"},{"start":3196.4300000000003,"end":3198.63,"text":"他們就給我們意見說"},{"start":3198.83,"end":3201.83,"text":"國家在提供死亡選項前"},{"start":3202.03,"end":3205.23,"text":"應先完善社會支持與長照制度"},{"start":3205.4300000000003,"end":3208.23,"text":"他們擔心草案會把依賴他人"},{"start":3208.4300000000003,"end":3210.23,"text":"跟喪失尊嚴掛鉤"},{"start":3210.4300000000003,"end":3213.63,"text":"會強化社會對障礙者的生命偏見"},{"start":3213.83,"end":3216.23,"text":"使他們因為不想成為家屬負擔"},{"start":3216.4300000000003,"end":3218.83,"text":"產生必須離開的無形壓力"},{"start":3219.97,"end":3222.77,"text":"那當然他的這個聲音並沒有影響"},{"start":3222.97,"end":3225.1699999999996,"text":"我對安樂死法草案的態度"},{"start":3225.37,"end":3227.37,"text":"可是我認為他們這個擔憂"},{"start":3227.5699999999997,"end":3229.5699999999997,"text":"也非常的讓人痛心"},{"start":3229.77,"end":3231.5699999999997,"text":"這個法案我們在討論"},{"start":3231.77,"end":3232.97,"text":"他就有這樣的擔憂"},{"start":3233.1699999999996,"end":3234.97,"text":"那他難道不是這個社會裡面"},{"start":3235.1699999999996,"end":3236.97,"text":"非常弱勢的一群人"},{"start":3237.1699999999996,"end":3240.37,"text":"我們的《戰權法》還在努力幫他們修"},{"start":3240.5699999999997,"end":3242.0699999999997,"text":"因為剛剛有人講好像"},{"start":3242.27,"end":3244.77,"text":"民進黨執政8年都沒有做任何的改革"},{"start":3244.97,"end":3246.1699999999996,"text":"不過忘記了"},{"start":3246.37,"end":3248.0699999999997,"text":"不管是婚姻平權"},{"start":3248.07,"end":3250.07,"text":"不管是年金改革"},{"start":3250.27,"end":3252.67,"text":"當然年金改革可能反對黨不一定認同"},{"start":3252.8700000000003,"end":3253.8700000000003,"text":"很多的改革"},{"start":3254.07,"end":3256.67,"text":"包含上一屆我們做的"},{"start":3256.8700000000003,"end":3259.67,"text":"信公法的改革等等的改革"},{"start":3259.8700000000003,"end":3262.27,"text":"他都是花費了很多的力氣"},{"start":3262.4700000000003,"end":3265.67,"text":"那所有的改革都有他共識抵達"},{"start":3265.8700000000003,"end":3267.67,"text":"就是水到渠成的那一刻"},{"start":3267.8700000000003,"end":3269.67,"text":"那甚至剛剛講的有些法案"},{"start":3269.8700000000003,"end":3271.67,"text":"譬如說信公法的改革"},{"start":3271.8700000000003,"end":3273.27,"text":"然後霸凌制度的改革"},{"start":3273.4700000000003,"end":3275.27,"text":"都是跨黨派有共識啊"},{"start":3275.47,"end":3278.67,"text":"所以我覺得對於人的選擇"},{"start":3278.87,"end":3279.67,"text":"生命的議題"},{"start":3279.87,"end":3283.07,"text":"他其實不是沿著政黨的線在切割的"},{"start":3283.27,"end":3286.07,"text":"那為什麼我們不能夠在立法院中"},{"start":3286.27,"end":3288.87,"text":"努力的好好討論讓他推動"},{"start":3289.07,"end":3291.07,"text":"那在目前的政治情勢下"},{"start":3291.27,"end":3292.67,"text":"公投綁大選"},{"start":3292.87,"end":3295.67,"text":"那說真的我們有非常多的疑慮哦"},{"start":3295.87,"end":3298.87,"text":"他到時候反而加深社會的分歧跟仇恨"},{"start":3299.07,"end":3301.67,"text":"因為最後一定是簡單的二分法"},{"start":3301.87,"end":3303.27,"text":"要求所有人表態"},{"start":3303.47,"end":3303.87,"text":"以上"},{"start":3307.55,"end":3309.55,"text":"好,聽次的蘇貝諾"},{"start":3310.1,"end":3312.1,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3312.1,"end":3315.1,"text":"我剛才很高興聽到范雲委員說"},{"start":3315.1,"end":3319.1,"text":"民進黨對於有相當多的委員"},{"start":3319.1,"end":3322.1,"text":"他也去連署了陳冠廷委員的案子"},{"start":3322.1,"end":3324.1,"text":"在安樂死法的案子"},{"start":3324.1,"end":3326.1,"text":"然後也提到了說"},{"start":3326.1,"end":3329.1,"text":"他們其實是很尊重人權的部分"},{"start":3329.1,"end":3331.1,"text":"當然是希望說安樂死法好好的立法"},{"start":3331.1,"end":3333.1,"text":"但是現在有一個很大的問題是"},{"start":3333.1,"end":3335.1,"text":"范雲委員也提到了"},{"start":3335.1,"end":3338.1,"text":"在上一屆的時候"},{"start":3338.1,"end":3340.1,"text":"出現的一個情況是"},{"start":3342.43,"end":3344.43,"text":"在野黨他們也有人提嘛"},{"start":3344.43,"end":3347.43,"text":"因為這個當初的尊嚴善終法"},{"start":3347.43,"end":3351.43,"text":"就是由民眾黨黨團跟國民黨的"},{"start":3351.43,"end":3354.43,"text":"有一個先委委員他提出來的"},{"start":3354.43,"end":3356.43,"text":"但是在這個情況"},{"start":3357.01,"end":3359.01,"text":"就是"},{"start":3358.49,"end":3361.49,"text":"大家不要忘記第十屆的國會是"},{"start":3361.49,"end":3362.49,"text":"民進黨為多數"},{"start":3362.49,"end":3365.49,"text":"就算是國民黨的委員排了"},{"start":3365.49,"end":3367.49,"text":"他也不可能再"},{"start":3367.49,"end":3369.49,"text":"如果沒有民進黨的支持的話"},{"start":3369.49,"end":3370.49,"text":"是根本不可能再"},{"start":3371.71,"end":3373.71,"text":"委員會通過也不可能再"},{"start":3373.71,"end":3374.71,"text":"院會會投票通過了"},{"start":3374.71,"end":3377.71,"text":"這就是為什麼事實上是"},{"start":3377.71,"end":3379.71,"text":"我覺得是要打臉的部分是在"},{"start":3379.71,"end":3381.71,"text":"民進黨他在上一屆的事件"},{"start":3381.71,"end":3383.71,"text":"基本上對這個安樂死法"},{"start":3383.71,"end":3384.71,"text":"是沒有好好的去做"},{"start":3384.71,"end":3386.71,"text":"好好的去做推動的狀況"},{"start":3386.71,"end":3388.71,"text":"那第二個部分"},{"start":3389.21,"end":3391.21,"text":"我們現在這一屆的話是看到的是"},{"start":3393.67,"end":3395.67,"text":"我們民進黨我們民眾黨有提"},{"start":3395.67,"end":3397.67,"text":"有沒有看到看到是很高興的是"},{"start":3397.67,"end":3400.67,"text":"民進黨也會非常有具備"},{"start":3400.67,"end":3402.67,"text":"對於安樂死法推動的"},{"start":3402.67,"end":3404.67,"text":"這樣子的陳冠廷委員"},{"start":3404.67,"end":3406.67,"text":"他有圖顯出來他的提案"},{"start":3406.67,"end":3408.67,"text":"是去年在提的"},{"start":3408.67,"end":3410.67,"text":"可是你看到整個立法"},{"start":3410.67,"end":3412.67,"text":"期程的展開是在"},{"start":3412.67,"end":3415.67,"text":"今年的七月的時候才開始展開的"},{"start":3415.67,"end":3416.67,"text":"那是為什麼"},{"start":3416.67,"end":3418.67,"text":"那很大的原因就是因為民眾黨"},{"start":3418.67,"end":3420.67,"text":"提出來這個公投案了"},{"start":3420.67,"end":3422.67,"text":"就加速了這個立法"},{"start":3422.67,"end":3424.67,"text":"那如果是這樣子再看到的是"},{"start":3424.67,"end":3428.67,"text":"如果民眾民進黨的政府非常重視"},{"start":3428.67,"end":3431.67,"text":"安樂死的法制化推動的話"},{"start":3431.67,"end":3434.67,"text":"他本身就應該在過去提到的"},{"start":3434.67,"end":3436.67,"text":"就是上一屆提出來了"},{"start":3436.67,"end":3437.67,"text":"可是經過了在一屆之後"},{"start":3437.67,"end":3439.67,"text":"他也應該提出願板的"},{"start":3439.67,"end":3441.67,"text":"不可能再提到願板也沒有"},{"start":3441.67,"end":3443.67,"text":"那去上個禮拜跟"},{"start":3443.67,"end":3445.67,"text":"時中良部長在交換意見的時候"},{"start":3445.67,"end":3446.67,"text":"他也是很期待說"},{"start":3446.67,"end":3448.67,"text":"我們還是繼續的擬議"},{"start":3448.67,"end":3450.67,"text":"可是知道當初的"},{"start":3450.67,"end":3452.67,"text":"福達仁先生在2018年"},{"start":3452.67,"end":3456.67,"text":"他非常引起大眾的了解的是"},{"start":3456.67,"end":3459.67,"text":"他到瑞士去做了安樂死"},{"start":3459.67,"end":3460.67,"text":"這部分又過了8年"},{"start":3460.67,"end":3461.67,"text":"到底現在"},{"start":3463.39,"end":3465.39,"text":"有這樣的需求的罹患重病"},{"start":3465.39,"end":3467.39,"text":"但是沒辦法去治癒的"},{"start":3467.39,"end":3469.39,"text":"而且忍受的非常深深重大痛苦的人"},{"start":3469.39,"end":3471.39,"text":"他們還忍受多少個8年"},{"start":3471.39,"end":3474.39,"text":"要不是民眾黨在這時候提出來了"},{"start":3474.39,"end":3476.39,"text":"這樣子的公投的提案"},{"start":3476.39,"end":3477.39,"text":"這樣子可能加速"},{"start":3477.39,"end":3479.39,"text":"而且最重要的是我們要透過"},{"start":3480.03,"end":3481.03,"text":"這次的提案當中"},{"start":3481.03,"end":3482.03,"text":"最重要是什麼意思"},{"start":3482.03,"end":3484.03,"text":"我們是我要跟陳培瑋"},{"start":3484.03,"end":3486.03,"text":"我要請看清楚"},{"start":3486.03,"end":3488.03,"text":"本黨的提案是"},{"start":3488.03,"end":3491.03,"text":"政府您是否同意"},{"start":3491.03,"end":3495.03,"text":"政府應將安樂死法制化"},{"start":3495.03,"end":3498.03,"text":"然後在制度的配套之下"},{"start":3498.03,"end":3499.03,"text":"來達到尊嚴善終"},{"start":3499.03,"end":3501.03,"text":"我們的題目是這樣子"},{"start":3501.03,"end":3502.03,"text":"所以整個是說"},{"start":3502.03,"end":3503.03,"text":"你要不要表達出來"},{"start":3503.03,"end":3505.03,"text":"對安樂死法制化的意見"},{"start":3505.03,"end":3507.03,"text":"你同意或不同意"},{"start":3507.03,"end":3508.03,"text":"那如果就像剛才的"},{"start":3508.03,"end":3509.03,"text":"彭胖卡委員說的"},{"start":3509.03,"end":3511.03,"text":"如果你不同意的話"},{"start":3511.03,"end":3512.03,"text":"那當然我們也許現在"},{"start":3512.03,"end":3514.03,"text":"就等於大家都不用再做了"},{"start":3514.03,"end":3515.03,"text":"因為是最佳的民意表現"},{"start":3515.03,"end":3516.03,"text":"那只是問你說"},{"start":3516.03,"end":3518.03,"text":"要不要覺得把它法制化"},{"start":3518.03,"end":3519.03,"text":"那如果說應該要"},{"start":3519.03,"end":3520.03,"text":"那是不是可以加速"},{"start":3520.03,"end":3522.03,"text":"因為公投法30條"},{"start":3522.03,"end":3524.03,"text":"還有一個非常重要的意涵是說"},{"start":3524.03,"end":3526.03,"text":"如果通過的話"},{"start":3526.03,"end":3528.03,"text":"它必須在行政部門"},{"start":3528.03,"end":3530.03,"text":"就必須在這個法案通過的"},{"start":3530.03,"end":3533.03,"text":"這個公投通過的三個月之內"},{"start":3533.03,"end":3535.03,"text":"要研議相關法案"},{"start":3535.03,"end":3537.03,"text":"送立法院審議"},{"start":3537.03,"end":3539.03,"text":"立法院就必須在"},{"start":3539.03,"end":3541.03,"text":"下一個會期休會之前"},{"start":3541.03,"end":3542.03,"text":"要審議完畢"},{"start":3542.03,"end":3545.03,"text":"這個就有一個非常重要的時辰"},{"start":3545.03,"end":3547.03,"text":"讓這個立法可以真的訴諸實現"},{"start":3549.01,"end":3550.01,"text":"民眾黨就是看到了"},{"start":3550.01,"end":3552.01,"text":"這樣的一個法制上面的"},{"start":3552.01,"end":3553.01,"text":"公投法30條的規定"},{"start":3553.01,"end":3554.01,"text":"就是希望說"},{"start":3554.01,"end":3555.01,"text":"既然大家剛才聽到的"},{"start":3555.01,"end":3557.01,"text":"范委員說的是"},{"start":3557.01,"end":3559.01,"text":"民進黨也對這個議題非常重視"},{"start":3559.01,"end":3560.01,"text":"而且我們也知道"},{"start":3560.01,"end":3562.01,"text":"這絕對不是說"},{"start":3562.01,"end":3564.01,"text":"這次就是只是把那個議"},{"start":3564.01,"end":3566.01,"text":"再不要法制化"},{"start":3566.01,"end":3567.01,"text":"把它表示意見"},{"start":3567.01,"end":3568.01,"text":"那我們也知道"},{"start":3568.01,"end":3570.01,"text":"它的確需要有相關的"},{"start":3570.01,"end":3572.01,"text":"後續的相關法制的審議"},{"start":3572.01,"end":3573.01,"text":"包括是說"},{"start":3573.01,"end":3574.01,"text":"它是審治人要修改刑法"},{"start":3574.01,"end":3576.01,"text":"就像陳佩玉委員所說的"},{"start":3576.01,"end":3577.01,"text":"的確在是不是有"},{"start":3577.01,"end":3579.01,"text":"加工自始的醫療醫師的"},{"start":3579.01,"end":3581.01,"text":"醫護人員是不是有它相關的"},{"start":3581.01,"end":3582.01,"text":"這樣的刑責這部分"},{"start":3582.01,"end":3584.01,"text":"也必須要慎重的討論"},{"start":3584.01,"end":3586.01,"text":"然後必須修改相關的"},{"start":3586.01,"end":3588.01,"text":"醫療相關的法律也要做"},{"start":3588.01,"end":3590.01,"text":"還有建立醫療倫理的程序"},{"start":3590.01,"end":3591.01,"text":"去審定等等的"},{"start":3591.01,"end":3592.01,"text":"現在這些部分"},{"start":3592.01,"end":3594.01,"text":"通通都是要做的"},{"start":3594.01,"end":3596.01,"text":"但是如果沒有決定說"},{"start":3596.01,"end":3597.01,"text":"一定要去"},{"start":3597.01,"end":3599.01,"text":"民意表達出來說請"},{"start":3599.7,"end":3600.7,"text":"立委們"},{"start":3601.09,"end":3602.09,"text":"請我們的立法院"},{"start":3602.09,"end":3603.09,"text":"政府就是應該"},{"start":3603.09,"end":3604.09,"text":"釐定相關的法制"},{"start":3604.09,"end":3605.09,"text":"我們表出意願說"},{"start":3605.09,"end":3607.09,"text":"那就是立法的工作"},{"start":3607.09,"end":3608.09,"text":"包括由政院提出的"},{"start":3608.09,"end":3609.09,"text":"政院版本"},{"start":3609.09,"end":3610.09,"text":"然後再來由"},{"start":3610.09,"end":3612.09,"text":"跟現在立法委員所提出的版本"},{"start":3612.09,"end":3613.09,"text":"來共同去討論"},{"start":3613.09,"end":3615.09,"text":"包括加快了這種審議"},{"start":3615.09,"end":3616.09,"text":"因為所有的行政資源"},{"start":3616.09,"end":3618.09,"text":"包括相關的制度等等的"},{"start":3618.09,"end":3619.09,"text":"不是很簡單的問題"},{"start":3619.09,"end":3620.09,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":3620.09,"end":3622.09,"text":"可是作為每個人都會死"},{"start":3622.09,"end":3623.09,"text":"但是如何"},{"start":3623.09,"end":3625.09,"text":"慎忠好好的去死"},{"start":3625.09,"end":3626.09,"text":"有尊嚴的去死"},{"start":3626.09,"end":3627.09,"text":"事實上是最重要的目的的時候"},{"start":3627.09,"end":3629.09,"text":"我們就希望透過這一次的"},{"start":3629.09,"end":3631.09,"text":"公投的安樂死公投法"},{"start":3631.09,"end":3634.09,"text":"安樂死法制化公投的提出"},{"start":3634.09,"end":3636.09,"text":"讓這樣的一個"},{"start":3636.09,"end":3639.09,"text":"透過公投的法的程序"},{"start":3639.09,"end":3641.09,"text":"能夠把這個意見表達出來之後"},{"start":3641.09,"end":3643.09,"text":"然後透過應該有很大的機會"},{"start":3643.09,"end":3645.09,"text":"審議通過之後"},{"start":3645.09,"end":3646.09,"text":"那我們就來做相關的立法"},{"start":3646.09,"end":3649.09,"text":"這才是真正負責任的一個"},{"start":3649.09,"end":3651.09,"text":"政黨的代表或是各政黨的"},{"start":3651.09,"end":3653.09,"text":"如果口口聲聲"},{"start":3653.09,"end":3654.09,"text":"號稱說"},{"start":3654.09,"end":3655.09,"text":"我們是尊重人權的"},{"start":3655.09,"end":3657.09,"text":"我們是很重視到"},{"start":3657.09,"end":3659.09,"text":"這些人那麼痛苦的時候"},{"start":3659.09,"end":3661.09,"text":"可是卻沒有辦法在這個"},{"start":3661.09,"end":3662.09,"text":"在這個最後的立法上面"},{"start":3662.09,"end":3663.09,"text":"加一把劍的"},{"start":3663.09,"end":3664.09,"text":"這樣的話事實上是"},{"start":3664.09,"end":3665.09,"text":"臨時不相符的"},{"start":3667.86,"end":3669.86,"text":"好,接下來我們請陳培武委員"},{"start":3670.68,"end":3671.68,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":3671.68,"end":3672.68,"text":"我想我就最後一次發言了"},{"start":3672.68,"end":3673.68,"text":"因為剛剛"},{"start":3673.68,"end":3675.68,"text":"有好幾個人點名到我"},{"start":3675.68,"end":3676.68,"text":"但我想我就不予回應了"},{"start":3676.68,"end":3677.68,"text":"今天我在每一題的發言"},{"start":3677.68,"end":3679.68,"text":"我要說我在每一題的"},{"start":3679.68,"end":3680.68,"text":"每一次的發言"},{"start":3680.68,"end":3682.68,"text":"我都只有針對當題的主題"},{"start":3682.68,"end":3683.68,"text":"所以剛才洪崴委員"},{"start":3683.68,"end":3684.68,"text":"其實還要扯到別的"},{"start":3684.68,"end":3685.68,"text":"我就不予置評"},{"start":3685.68,"end":3687.68,"text":"但我想我們就針對每一題來談"},{"start":3687.68,"end":3690.68,"text":"我現在手上這一份是在"},{"start":3690.68,"end":3692.68,"text":"這一屆第五會期"},{"start":3692.68,"end":3694.68,"text":"然後在衛環委員會裡面"},{"start":3694.68,"end":3695.68,"text":"由本黨的召委"},{"start":3695.68,"end":3699.68,"text":"林月晴委員所召開的巡達"},{"start":3699.68,"end":3701.68,"text":"那當時出席的有衛福部"},{"start":3701.68,"end":3702.68,"text":"還有法務部"},{"start":3702.68,"end":3704.68,"text":"也就是說其實本黨團"},{"start":3704.68,"end":3706.68,"text":"非常負責任的安排了"},{"start":3706.68,"end":3708.68,"text":"相關的法案巡達內容"},{"start":3708.68,"end":3711.68,"text":"希望讓委員們的巡達"},{"start":3711.68,"end":3713.68,"text":"然後部長們的回答"},{"start":3713.68,"end":3714.68,"text":"尤其是法務部或衛福部"},{"start":3714.68,"end":3715.68,"text":"然後讓大家知道"},{"start":3715.68,"end":3717.68,"text":"現在到底困境在哪裡"},{"start":3717.68,"end":3719.68,"text":"現在進度在哪裡"},{"start":3719.68,"end":3720.68,"text":"所以我要說"},{"start":3720.68,"end":3722.68,"text":"非常負責任的做了這件事情"},{"start":3722.68,"end":3724.68,"text":"這一屆是陳冠廷委員先提出的"},{"start":3724.68,"end":3726.68,"text":"所以由林月晴委員來安排巡達"},{"start":3726.68,"end":3727.68,"text":"所以我們已經做這個事情"},{"start":3727.68,"end":3728.68,"text":"並不是完全都沒有進度"},{"start":3728.68,"end":3730.68,"text":"完全沒有任何推進"},{"start":3730.68,"end":3732.68,"text":"那我手上其實有兩份書面報告"},{"start":3732.68,"end":3734.68,"text":"一份是法務部的書面報告"},{"start":3734.68,"end":3736.68,"text":"一份是衛福部的書面報告"},{"start":3736.68,"end":3738.68,"text":"確實都回答了一些"},{"start":3738.68,"end":3740.68,"text":"大家現在有點擔心"},{"start":3740.68,"end":3741.68,"text":"有一點疑慮"},{"start":3741.68,"end":3742.68,"text":"甚至是未來"},{"start":3742.68,"end":3743.68,"text":"其實要積極討論的問題"},{"start":3743.68,"end":3745.68,"text":"也就是說其實執政黨團"},{"start":3745.68,"end":3746.68,"text":"是非常負責任的"},{"start":3746.68,"end":3747.68,"text":"在處理這個事情"},{"start":3747.68,"end":3748.68,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":3748.68,"end":3749.68,"text":"再來就是所謂的"},{"start":3749.68,"end":3751.68,"text":"政府法制化這件事情"},{"start":3751.68,"end":3752.68,"text":"其實大家不要忘記"},{"start":3752.68,"end":3755.68,"text":"立法院是非常重要的立法單位"},{"start":3755.68,"end":3756.68,"text":"所以一般我們"},{"start":3758.01,"end":3759.01,"text":"有特別的偏好"},{"start":3759.01,"end":3761.01,"text":"或是有個人的執念"},{"start":3761.01,"end":3762.01,"text":"印下立什麼法"},{"start":3762.01,"end":3764.01,"text":"然後用所謂的立法院"},{"start":3764.01,"end":3766.01,"text":"多數的方法"},{"start":3766.01,"end":3767.01,"text":"暴力的通過那個法"},{"start":3767.01,"end":3769.01,"text":"其實我們也會受到人民的譴責"},{"start":3769.01,"end":3771.01,"text":"所以我完全非常同意一個論述"},{"start":3771.01,"end":3774.01,"text":"就是所有的法案要通過之前"},{"start":3774.01,"end":3776.01,"text":"所有的法案都需要經過細緻"},{"start":3776.01,"end":3778.01,"text":"就算它是永長的討論"},{"start":3778.01,"end":3779.01,"text":"它都得經過"},{"start":3779.01,"end":3781.01,"text":"這是民主很重要的價值"},{"start":3781.01,"end":3783.01,"text":"所以我們可以看到"},{"start":3783.01,"end":3784.01,"text":"當時民眾黨團"},{"start":3784.01,"end":3785.01,"text":"甚至有一個委員"},{"start":3785.01,"end":3786.01,"text":"因為他提了一個"},{"start":3786.01,"end":3787.01,"text":"大家覺得很有意義的法"},{"start":3787.01,"end":3789.01,"text":"他甚至因此而下台"},{"start":3789.01,"end":3791.01,"text":"自請辭職這件事情"},{"start":3791.01,"end":3793.01,"text":"我就不要再點名相關委員"},{"start":3793.01,"end":3794.01,"text":"但我要說"},{"start":3794.01,"end":3795.01,"text":"當時在立這個法的時候"},{"start":3795.01,"end":3797.01,"text":"因為他就是有多數的暴力的問題"},{"start":3797.01,"end":3799.01,"text":"有相關利益牽扯不清的問題"},{"start":3799.01,"end":3800.01,"text":"所以這個委員"},{"start":3800.01,"end":3801.01,"text":"他自己做出了"},{"start":3801.01,"end":3803.01,"text":"他認為負責任的決定"},{"start":3803.01,"end":3804.01,"text":"就是下台一鞠躬"},{"start":3804.01,"end":3805.01,"text":"所以如果"},{"start":3805.01,"end":3807.01,"text":"我用剛剛劉樹斌委員的邏輯"},{"start":3807.01,"end":3808.01,"text":"那我要問"},{"start":3809.48,"end":3811.48,"text":"你們認為有爭議的事情"},{"start":3811.48,"end":3813.48,"text":"你們認為人民在意的事情"},{"start":3813.48,"end":3816.48,"text":"都需要透過公投來決定"},{"start":3816.48,"end":3817.48,"text":"政府該不該立法"},{"start":3817.48,"end":3818.48,"text":"那我就問"},{"start":3818.48,"end":3819.48,"text":"這個週末"},{"start":3819.48,"end":3821.48,"text":"引起非常多討論的電競專法"},{"start":3821.48,"end":3823.48,"text":"難道也要依法"},{"start":3823.48,"end":3825.48,"text":"用你們的邏輯去辦理嗎"},{"start":3825.48,"end":3827.48,"text":"或者是在未還委員會"},{"start":3827.48,"end":3828.48,"text":"引起大家討論"},{"start":3828.48,"end":3830.48,"text":"到現在討論都沒有辦法"},{"start":3830.48,"end":3832.48,"text":"平息的大禮玉母這個事情"},{"start":3832.48,"end":3833.48,"text":"難道相關的法制化"},{"start":3833.48,"end":3835.48,"text":"也要透過公投來處理嗎"},{"start":3835.48,"end":3837.48,"text":"所以我要說"},{"start":3837.48,"end":3838.48,"text":"請不要雙標"},{"start":3838.48,"end":3839.48,"text":"請用一樣的標準"},{"start":3839.48,"end":3841.48,"text":"請用一樣的邏輯"},{"start":3841.48,"end":3843.48,"text":"讓自己回到立法院裡面"},{"start":3843.48,"end":3845.48,"text":"來好好的上班"},{"start":3845.48,"end":3846.48,"text":"而且我們的上班"},{"start":3846.48,"end":3847.48,"text":"不是只有立法"},{"start":3847.48,"end":3849.48,"text":"我相信在場私生的委員"},{"start":3849.48,"end":3850.48,"text":"放委員也很清楚"},{"start":3850.48,"end":3851.48,"text":"我們為了處理"},{"start":3851.48,"end":3853.48,"text":"就算只有一兩條的修法"},{"start":3853.48,"end":3855.48,"text":"我們自己辦公室"},{"start":3855.48,"end":3856.48,"text":"每一個辦公室"},{"start":3856.48,"end":3857.48,"text":"要開幾場協調會"},{"start":3857.48,"end":3858.48,"text":"幾場的專家會議"},{"start":3858.48,"end":3859.48,"text":"更不要講"},{"start":3859.48,"end":3861.48,"text":"我們還要找其他委員的認同"},{"start":3861.48,"end":3862.48,"text":"跟支持"},{"start":3862.48,"end":3863.48,"text":"還要找行政部會"},{"start":3863.48,"end":3864.48,"text":"找專家學者"},{"start":3864.48,"end":3867.48,"text":"甚至需要跨黨派的討論"},{"start":3867.48,"end":3868.48,"text":"而這些事情"},{"start":3868.48,"end":3871.48,"text":"是在立法院的法制工作當中"},{"start":3871.48,"end":3873.48,"text":"絕對是每一個立委"},{"start":3873.48,"end":3874.48,"text":"在領人民的薪水"},{"start":3874.48,"end":3875.48,"text":"必須要做的事情"},{"start":3875.48,"end":3876.48,"text":"所以我要說"},{"start":3876.48,"end":3878.48,"text":"政府的法制化也好"},{"start":3878.48,"end":3879.48,"text":"政府有沒有所謂的院板"},{"start":3879.48,"end":3880.48,"text":"布板"},{"start":3880.48,"end":3881.48,"text":"跟立法委員"},{"start":3881.48,"end":3883.48,"text":"有沒有提出自己的草案內容"},{"start":3883.48,"end":3884.48,"text":"甚至是另一個新的法"},{"start":3884.48,"end":3886.48,"text":"本來都有其權責"},{"start":3886.48,"end":3887.48,"text":"而且講得非常的清楚"},{"start":3887.48,"end":3889.48,"text":"所以我想請大家"},{"start":3889.48,"end":3890.48,"text":"用一樣的標準來看待"},{"start":3890.48,"end":3891.48,"text":"所以我再強調一次"},{"start":3891.48,"end":3893.48,"text":"相關的說明"},{"start":3893.48,"end":3894.48,"text":"我已經說得很清楚了"},{"start":3894.48,"end":3895.48,"text":"希望不要再亂扣帽子"},{"start":3895.48,"end":3896.48,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":3897.8,"end":3899.8,"text":"好 接下來我們請何孟凱委員"},{"start":3901.56,"end":3904.56,"text":"永遠執政黨說的跟做的就是不一樣了"},{"start":3904.56,"end":3906.56,"text":"我覺得我最印象深刻"},{"start":3906.56,"end":3907.56,"text":"如果說要講"},{"start":3907.56,"end":3911.56,"text":"過去這個民進黨完全執政的時候"},{"start":3911.56,"end":3912.56,"text":"通過了很多"},{"start":3912.56,"end":3913.56,"text":"自以為改革"},{"start":3913.56,"end":3914.56,"text":"結果到最後"},{"start":3914.56,"end":3918.56,"text":"校事會議真的初爆的被通過之後"},{"start":3918.56,"end":3920.56,"text":"那就是真的讓我們第一線的老師"},{"start":3920.56,"end":3924.56,"text":"受到很多的一個行政的困擾"},{"start":3924.56,"end":3925.56,"text":"所以我們現在也真的"},{"start":3925.56,"end":3927.56,"text":"就是在把他給退回給"},{"start":3927.56,"end":3929.56,"text":"請教育部重新的來做一個審查"},{"start":3930.74,"end":3931.74,"text":"我還是強調"},{"start":3931.74,"end":3932.74,"text":"在第十屆的時候"},{"start":3932.74,"end":3935.74,"text":"其實請執政黨委員不要忘記"},{"start":3935.74,"end":3936.74,"text":"第十屆的時候"},{"start":3936.74,"end":3938.74,"text":"其實就已經有各跨黨派的委員"},{"start":3938.74,"end":3940.74,"text":"有針對這樣的一個議案"},{"start":3940.74,"end":3941.74,"text":"提出不同的版本"},{"start":3941.74,"end":3942.74,"text":"我印象中"},{"start":3942.74,"end":3944.74,"text":"包括游育蘭委員 國民黨籍"},{"start":3944.74,"end":3947.74,"text":"以及包括時代力量的陳嬌華委員"},{"start":3947.74,"end":3949.74,"text":"都有提出相關的一個修法"},{"start":3949.74,"end":3952.74,"text":"但是當時因為在也是少數"},{"start":3952.74,"end":3954.74,"text":"也因此確實"},{"start":3954.74,"end":3955.74,"text":"如同剛剛"},{"start":3956.76,"end":3958.76,"text":"所講委員會都沒有辦法"},{"start":3958.76,"end":3961.76,"text":"能夠審議完了之後送出委員會"},{"start":3961.76,"end":3964.76,"text":"那更不用講是說到院會來去做討論"},{"start":3964.76,"end":3965.76,"text":"那現在"},{"start":3966.04,"end":3969.04,"text":"行政部門想做有一百種理由"},{"start":3969.04,"end":3971.04,"text":"我們現在已經看到過去這兩年"},{"start":3971.04,"end":3972.04,"text":"過去這十年"},{"start":3972.04,"end":3973.04,"text":"過去這兩年多"},{"start":3973.04,"end":3974.04,"text":"即便行政部門"},{"start":3974.04,"end":3976.04,"text":"現在執政黨是少數執政"},{"start":3976.04,"end":3978.04,"text":"但是想做也有一百種理由"},{"start":3978.04,"end":3980.04,"text":"但不想做一百種藉口"},{"start":3980.04,"end":3981.04,"text":"你說院版的部分"},{"start":3981.04,"end":3983.04,"text":"不出來就是不出來"},{"start":3983.04,"end":3986.04,"text":"那到最後就變成是說立法部門"},{"start":3986.04,"end":3988.04,"text":"還要等行政部門這邊來去做"},{"start":3988.04,"end":3990.04,"text":"你的版本大概在哪裡"},{"start":3990.04,"end":3992.04,"text":"我覺得如果說真的要講立法的"},{"start":3993.45,"end":3995.45,"text":"細緻規則"},{"start":3995.45,"end":3997.45,"text":"我想我也進來立法院六年"},{"start":3997.45,"end":3998.45,"text":"跟法院委員一樣"},{"start":3998.45,"end":3999.45,"text":"當然我想"},{"start":3999.45,"end":4001.45,"text":"我也不敢自稱資深"},{"start":4001.45,"end":4003.45,"text":"可是至少這個部分"},{"start":4003.45,"end":4004.45,"text":"要比認真"},{"start":4004.45,"end":4005.45,"text":"我比誰都認真"},{"start":4005.45,"end":4006.45,"text":"要比專業"},{"start":4006.45,"end":4008.45,"text":"我相信我覺得不會輸任何人"},{"start":4008.45,"end":4009.45,"text":"也因此"},{"start":4009.45,"end":4012.45,"text":"如果說在一個重大政策創制"},{"start":4012.45,"end":4014.45,"text":"尤其是要立一個新法"},{"start":4014.45,"end":4016.45,"text":"沒有行政部門的版本的時候"},{"start":4016.45,"end":4018.45,"text":"你就沒有辦法"},{"start":4018.45,"end":4020.45,"text":"有一個統合的展現"},{"start":4020.45,"end":4022.45,"text":"而手握權力的行政部門"},{"start":4022.45,"end":4024.45,"text":"才是最應該負責的"},{"start":4025.33,"end":4026.33,"text":"那也是為什麼說"},{"start":4026.33,"end":4027.33,"text":"我們要求"},{"start":4027.33,"end":4029.33,"text":"即便民意高漲"},{"start":4029.33,"end":4030.33,"text":"即便民意的沸騰"},{"start":4030.33,"end":4031.33,"text":"即便民意的需求"},{"start":4031.33,"end":4033.33,"text":"但是行政部門充耳不聞"},{"start":4033.33,"end":4035.33,"text":"不提出相關的版本"},{"start":4035.33,"end":4037.33,"text":"甚至他用一紙的報告"},{"start":4037.33,"end":4039.33,"text":"就要否決所有的民意的時候"},{"start":4039.33,"end":4041.33,"text":"那民眾沒有辦法"},{"start":4041.33,"end":4043.33,"text":"也只能選擇了訴諸直接的民意"},{"start":4043.33,"end":4046.33,"text":"依法公投通過之後"},{"start":4046.33,"end":4049.33,"text":"行政部門就依法有責任"},{"start":4049.33,"end":4051.33,"text":"要提出版本"},{"start":4051.33,"end":4052.33,"text":"我想這才是"},{"start":4052.33,"end":4054.33,"text":"這個最核心的一個價值"},{"start":4055.11,"end":4057.11,"text":"所以今天已經台灣到這樣子"},{"start":4057.11,"end":4059.11,"text":"那也真的很遺憾"},{"start":4059.11,"end":4060.11,"text":"我還是聽不到"},{"start":4060.11,"end":4061.11,"text":"是說他到底"},{"start":4061.11,"end":4063.11,"text":"你們的立場是什麼"},{"start":4063.11,"end":4064.11,"text":"如果說今天真的有公投"},{"start":4064.11,"end":4066.11,"text":"說你們投Yes or No"},{"start":4066.7,"end":4067.7,"text":"是要跟人民站在一起"},{"start":4067.7,"end":4069.7,"text":"還是跟人民站在對立面"},{"start":4069.7,"end":4070.7,"text":"還是你們有你們的主張"},{"start":4070.7,"end":4071.7,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":4071.7,"end":4072.7,"text":"但這一個問題"},{"start":4072.7,"end":4073.7,"text":"如同我那個時候"},{"start":4073.7,"end":4074.7,"text":"我有問過行政院院長"},{"start":4074.7,"end":4076.7,"text":"我說假設"},{"start":4076.7,"end":4078.7,"text":"邊行打造公投真的成案之後"},{"start":4078.7,"end":4080.7,"text":"行政部門是站在"},{"start":4080.7,"end":4082.7,"text":"你是算是反對方"},{"start":4082.7,"end":4083.7,"text":"那你要怎麼反對"},{"start":4083.7,"end":4084.7,"text":"你反對的理由是什麼"},{"start":4085.64,"end":4087.64,"text":"法務部部長不敢直接回答"},{"start":4087.64,"end":4088.64,"text":"行政院長顧佐二言他"},{"start":4088.64,"end":4090.64,"text":"就是想要把時間給拖掉"},{"start":4092.27,"end":4093.27,"text":"所以還是一樣"},{"start":4094.04,"end":4095.04,"text":"所有的討論"},{"start":4095.04,"end":4096.04,"text":"我也認為都有意義"},{"start":4096.04,"end":4097.04,"text":"都有價值"},{"start":4097.04,"end":4099.04,"text":"那他就是一個造妖計"},{"start":4099.04,"end":4100.04,"text":"造出所有的"},{"start":4101.2,"end":4102.2,"text":"是不是"},{"start":4102.39,"end":4104.39,"text":"所有的政黨過去到現在"},{"start":4104.39,"end":4106.39,"text":"是不是言行一致"},{"start":4106.39,"end":4108.39,"text":"尊重公投的結果"},{"start":4108.39,"end":4111.39,"text":"讓直接民意的展現"},{"start":4111.39,"end":4113.39,"text":"我想這應該是"},{"start":4113.39,"end":4115.39,"text":"在也執政時候"},{"start":4115.39,"end":4116.39,"text":"都應該要一致的標準"},{"start":4116.39,"end":4118.39,"text":"這也是我們黨團"},{"start":4118.39,"end":4120.39,"text":"所堅持的普世價值"},{"start":4120.39,"end":4121.39,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":4121.77,"end":4122.77,"text":"好"},{"start":4122.77,"end":4124.77,"text":"我想我們經過兩輪"},{"start":4124.77,"end":4126.77,"text":"多個委員的發表"},{"start":4126.77,"end":4129.77,"text":"經過黨團分別表示"},{"start":4129.77,"end":4131.77,"text":"見後應為能達成共識"},{"start":4131.77,"end":4135.77,"text":"我們將依照本議相關議事規範進行處理"},{"start":4135.77,"end":4136.77,"text":"好"},{"start":4136.77,"end":4137.77,"text":"那今天的會議到此結束"},{"start":4137.77,"end":4138.77,"text":"散會"},{"start":4138.77,"end":4139.77,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}