{"error":false,"id":["17646"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17646,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17646","日期":"2026-08-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-08-05T08:34:00+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-05T17:33:00+08:00","影片長度":"08:59:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855aaa864c46863ae22379e2494b6cb8b9df57eeef4bb6a12a1529a0c33be2c9be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:34:00 - 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林月琴等三人所提修正動議通過三保留行政院提案"},{"start":1922.3999999999999,"end":1927.72,"text":"第十條第十一條第十九條之二增定第十九條之三及對應提案條文"},{"start":1927.76,"end":1935.32,"text":"二國民黨黨團提案第三十二條及對應提案條文三委員王玉明等18人提案增定第33條之一條文"},{"start":1935.96,"end":1937.6000000000001,"text":"是保留知修正動議"},{"start":1940.82,"end":1941.78,"text":"既有六案"},{"start":1944.66,"end":1946.5,"text":"五通過附帶決議五項"},{"start":1947.52,"end":1951.0800000000002,"text":"七月三十日邀請衛生福利部部長及教育部次長就"},{"start":1951.3600000000001,"end":1958.92,"text":"近期幼兒園及托育兒孽平傳責任通報兒少保護及跨部會合作機制檢討進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1959.56,"end":1962.8,"text":"本日會議專題報告及討論事項採綜合詢答"},{"start":1963.16,"end":1967.3600000000001,"text":"經委員邱慧如代表臺灣民眾黨黨團及陳冠廷說明提案"},{"start":1967.3600000000001,"end":1971.44,"text":"只去由衛生福利部部長石崇良報告及說明"},{"start":1973.2,"end":1975.64,"text":"委員林月琴等17人提出質詢"},{"start":1975.64,"end":1979.16,"text":"軍軍衛生福利部部長石崇良及各相關主管"},{"start":1980.01,"end":1980.8100000000002,"text":"繼續答覆"},{"start":1981.2900000000002,"end":1985.8500000000001,"text":"文徐欣瑩等5人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1986.6599999999999,"end":1988.4599999999998,"text":"決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1988.4599999999998,"end":1991.54,"text":"而委員詢答未及答覆或請補充資料者"},{"start":1991.54,"end":1993.82,"text":"請相關機關於二週內書面答覆"},{"start":1994.3,"end":1996.9799999999998,"text":"委員要求其現在重啟鎖定討論事項"},{"start":1998.08,"end":2001.72,"text":"審查委員陳冠廷等18人擬具安樂死法草案"},{"start":2002.04,"end":2006.08,"text":"二審查臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具尊嚴善終法草案"},{"start":2006.56,"end":2008.08,"text":"決議說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":2008.08,"end":2012.72,"text":"二委員陳冠廷等18人擬具安樂死法草案及臺灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":2012.72,"end":2014.48,"text":"擬具尊嚴善終法草案"},{"start":2014.8,"end":2017.84,"text":"尚未審查完卷令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":2019.7,"end":2022.5,"text":"請問委員會三次一聲有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2023.43,"end":2024.95,"text":"好一書確定"},{"start":2025.19,"end":2027.0300000000002,"text":"信用委員提出程序發言"},{"start":2027.0300000000002,"end":2029.19,"text":"依據依據立法院議事規則"},{"start":2029.19,"end":2031.47,"text":"在委員發言前先訊詢到發言的時間"},{"start":2031.7900000000002,"end":2033.67,"text":"每位委員發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":2033.67,"end":2036.0700000000002,"text":"需要發言的委員麻煩到主席臺這邊登記"},{"start":2036.19,"end":2037.91,"text":"現在請登記第二位王毓民委員"},{"start":2045.97,"end":2048.01,"text":"主席跟委員大家早安"},{"start":2049,"end":2052.04,"text":"最新的這個獨有事件爆發了"},{"start":2052.16,"end":2057.8,"text":"台糖公司竟然發現致癌藥而隱匿不通報"},{"start":2058.65,"end":2061.57,"text":"大家都知道食安管理的原則"},{"start":2061.69,"end":2065.25,"text":"最重要的就是從源頭管理"},{"start":2065.8,"end":2069.96,"text":"請問台糖的這批油是不是它的原料"},{"start":2070.49,"end":2071.0099999999998,"text":"是"},{"start":2071.65,"end":2073.09,"text":"既然是原料"},{"start":2073.33,"end":2075.81,"text":"發現原料有致癌物"},{"start":2076.17,"end":2079.29,"text":"為什麼不用通報主管機關"},{"start":2080.22,"end":2082.2999999999997,"text":"人家覺得很荒謬的是"},{"start":2082.54,"end":2084.74,"text":"我們所有的政府部門"},{"start":2084.98,"end":2086.4199999999996,"text":"官官相護"},{"start":2086.58,"end":2091.02,"text":"還稱讚台糖市模範生好寶寶"},{"start":2091.56,"end":2093.12,"text":"台糖這樣的做法"},{"start":2093.32,"end":2095.72,"text":"連一個吹哨者都不如"},{"start":2096,"end":2098.84,"text":"發現有毒的這個油品"},{"start":2099.12,"end":2101.56,"text":"竟然不通報主管機關"},{"start":2101.72,"end":2106.16,"text":"經濟部還說他是模範生是好寶寶"},{"start":2106.82,"end":2110.98,"text":"把國人的食安完全踐踏在腳下"},{"start":2111.57,"end":2113.65,"text":"更別忘了衛福部"},{"start":2114.49,"end":2116.5299999999997,"text":"你在2024年"},{"start":2116.77,"end":2120.49,"text":"曾經因為蘇丹紅事件召開會議"},{"start":2121.4,"end":2124.76,"text":"你還發了一個新聞稿告訴大家"},{"start":2126.88,"end":2131.6000000000004,"text":"只要發現原料或產品有問題"},{"start":2131.92,"end":2135.56,"text":"一定要通報主管機關"},{"start":2137.45,"end":2140.0899999999997,"text":"這一個鐵砧砧的事實"},{"start":2141.52,"end":2144.64,"text":"衛福部你自己召開的會議"},{"start":2144.8799999999997,"end":2146.7599999999998,"text":"還發了新聞稿"},{"start":2147.56,"end":2151.48,"text":"結果你現在要幫台糖洗地護航"},{"start":2151.72,"end":2156.4,"text":"你說那個會議的效力只有蘇丹紅"},{"start":2156.68,"end":2158.04,"text":"我就問衛福部"},{"start":2158.32,"end":2161.84,"text":"請問全國的原料如果有問題"},{"start":2162.04,"end":2165.88,"text":"你現在是只有蘇丹紅要通報主管機關嗎"},{"start":2166.2,"end":2168.2799999999997,"text":"其他原料有問題"},{"start":2168.44,"end":2171.12,"text":"通通都不用通報主管機關嗎"},{"start":2171.98,"end":2175.22,"text":"你怎麼會這樣子從源頭去開放"},{"start":2175.81,"end":2178.5299999999997,"text":"衛福部自己變成是食安的破口"},{"start":2179.34,"end":2182.0600000000004,"text":"你主動為了護航台糖"},{"start":2182.2200000000003,"end":2183.6600000000003,"text":"你這樣的一個說法"},{"start":2183.82,"end":2186.6200000000003,"text":"你知不知道把台灣的食安工作"},{"start":2187.63,"end":2190.15,"text":"造成多大的破口跟危機嗎"},{"start":2190.3900000000003,"end":2192.3500000000004,"text":"你這樣子的前後不一"},{"start":2192.51,"end":2195.59,"text":"請問未來如果發現原料有問題"},{"start":2195.75,"end":2197.59,"text":"需不需要通報主管機關"},{"start":2197.75,"end":2199.15,"text":"比照台糖是不是"},{"start":2199.96,"end":2203.36,"text":"退貨然後當作沒發生就好了嗎"},{"start":2203.52,"end":2204.92,"text":"可以這樣嗎"},{"start":2205.9,"end":2210.02,"text":"陳其邁市長說五兩的廠商該倒就倒"},{"start":2210.1800000000003,"end":2212.26,"text":"今天國民黨我們要變更議程"},{"start":2212.42,"end":2214.5,"text":"前面先處理臨時提案"},{"start":2214.6600000000003,"end":2219.7000000000003,"text":"如果有這些五兩的官員護航包庇"},{"start":2220.18,"end":2222.5,"text":"該查辦就查辦"},{"start":2222.66,"end":2224.98,"text":"該下台就下台"},{"start":2228.47,"end":2229.31,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員"},{"start":2229.47,"end":2232.5099999999998,"text":"現在請第二位登記委員林玉琴召委"},{"start":2245.19,"end":2248.35,"text":"我們社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":2248.51,"end":2251.87,"text":"八月五號議程就原定審查"},{"start":2252.03,"end":2253.9900000000002,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":2254.15,"end":2257.71,"text":"部分條文修正草案共三十七案"},{"start":2257.87,"end":2259.71,"text":"我們的輪值召委週一"},{"start":2259.87,"end":2261.59,"text":"針列了專題報告"},{"start":2261.75,"end":2263.87,"text":"用標題來帶風向"},{"start":2264.03,"end":2267.39,"text":"以政治口水來取代真正補食安法"},{"start":2270.77,"end":2272.93,"text":"大家口口聲聲說食安重要"},{"start":2273.09,"end":2274.4900000000002,"text":"卻臨時變更議程"},{"start":2274.65,"end":2277.73,"text":"把寶貴的審查時間拿來做政治攻防"},{"start":2277.89,"end":2280.21,"text":"可不可以先審食安法"},{"start":2280.37,"end":2281.93,"text":"如果大家都覺得很重要"},{"start":2282.09,"end":2283.81,"text":"為什麼把這個時間"},{"start":2283.97,"end":2286.85,"text":"今天如果早上四上四再詢答"},{"start":2287.01,"end":2288.4900000000002,"text":"下午唸個法條"},{"start":2288.65,"end":2289.97,"text":"今天就不用審食安法"},{"start":2290.13,"end":2291.69,"text":"如果講食安法很重要"},{"start":2291.85,"end":2294.29,"text":"為什麼今天不是好好坐下來"},{"start":2294.45,"end":2295.65,"text":"去審食安法"},{"start":2297.54,"end":2299.94,"text":"當然專題報告我覺得可以排"},{"start":2300.1,"end":2302.3,"text":"我也支持透過專題報告"},{"start":2302.46,"end":2303.14,"text":"專案報告"},{"start":2303.3,"end":2305.94,"text":"把整個事件經過跟責任釐清"},{"start":2306.1,"end":2309.54,"text":"但是議程名稱直接寫中央"},{"start":2309.7000000000003,"end":2311.62,"text":"蓋牌 施案當門神"},{"start":2311.78,"end":2313.42,"text":"等於還沒有開始詢答"},{"start":2313.58,"end":2317.5,"text":"就已經替整件事情下了一個結論"},{"start":2317.6600000000003,"end":2318.94,"text":"這樣的議程設定"},{"start":2319.1,"end":2323.02,"text":"真的符合委員會理性監督的原則嗎"},{"start":2323.1800000000003,"end":2324.46,"text":"如果今天要談責任"},{"start":2325.34,"end":2326.38,"text":"那就應該把中央"},{"start":2326.54,"end":2328.94,"text":"地方政府跟業者各自做了什麼"},{"start":2329.1000000000004,"end":2330.5,"text":"哪個環節出了問題"},{"start":2330.6600000000003,"end":2332.42,"text":"全部攤開來檢視"},{"start":2332.5800000000004,"end":2334.5800000000004,"text":"而不是先設定誰有罪"},{"start":2334.7400000000002,"end":2338.34,"text":"再要求行政部門來接受政治審判"},{"start":2340.45,"end":2342.0899999999997,"text":"而且我也要說"},{"start":2342.25,"end":2344.25,"text":"如果你們認為中聯有"},{"start":2344.41,"end":2347.69,"text":"列席衛福部的專家會議在7月4號"},{"start":2347.85,"end":2349.81,"text":"就可以影射中央有門神"},{"start":2349.97,"end":2352.69,"text":"台中市政府7月3號"},{"start":2352.85,"end":2355.93,"text":"也找了中聯有列席會議"},{"start":2358.1,"end":2361.18,"text":"今天藍白兩黨不是雙標嗎"},{"start":2361.34,"end":2364.2999999999997,"text":"那如果這樣7月3號他們已經去練習"},{"start":2364.46,"end":2365.66,"text":"那有沒有串供呢"},{"start":2365.82,"end":2367.58,"text":"如果按照同樣的標準"},{"start":2367.74,"end":2369.66,"text":"台中市政府是門神嗎"},{"start":2369.82,"end":2372.9,"text":"那台北市的蔣萬安是耳虐集團的門神嗎"},{"start":2373.06,"end":2377.06,"text":"更何況中聯有的串供工廠就是在台中"},{"start":2377.22,"end":2380.62,"text":"台中市政府卻一直沒有直接檢驗中聯有"},{"start":2380.7799999999997,"end":2384.06,"text":"請問到底是哪一個環節沒有把好關"},{"start":2384.1,"end":2388.02,"text":"誰才更有可能替業者開大門走大路"},{"start":2388.18,"end":2389.98,"text":"如果有監督那就請中央地方"},{"start":2390.14,"end":2393.9,"text":"用同一套標準不要只挑中央來寫"},{"start":2394.06,"end":2396.42,"text":"那也請把台中市政府補上去"},{"start":2397.77,"end":2399.29,"text":"不是只有單一的"},{"start":2399.45,"end":2404.25,"text":"本來中央地方業者的各個權責義務"},{"start":2404.41,"end":2406.41,"text":"都應該要講清楚說明白"},{"start":2406.57,"end":2409.33,"text":"所以不要只挑中央來寫政治標題"},{"start":2409.49,"end":2411.37,"text":"否則這就不是釐清實案責任"},{"start":2411.53,"end":2414.05,"text":"而是先選定了攻擊對象"},{"start":2414.21,"end":2418.17,"text":"再用委員會的議程來配合政治操作"},{"start":2423.1,"end":2424.34,"text":"好 謝謝聯業群委員"},{"start":2424.5,"end":2426.14,"text":"接下來請泛民委員"},{"start":2434.64,"end":2436.64,"text":"大家好 我想非常的遺憾"},{"start":2436.7999999999997,"end":2440.08,"text":"看到原本整個社會期待"},{"start":2440.24,"end":2443.12,"text":"朝野都說要儘速修實案法"},{"start":2443.2799999999997,"end":2444.64,"text":"可是我們看到的"},{"start":2444.7999999999997,"end":2447.16,"text":"朝偉今天他是變更議程"},{"start":2447.3199999999997,"end":2449.8399999999997,"text":"然後你看一下他這個議程叫什麼"},{"start":2450,"end":2453.12,"text":"中央一位蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":2454,"end":2457.56,"text":"為什麼這件事情已經釐清的越來越多"},{"start":2457.7200000000003,"end":2461.32,"text":"就如同剛剛林月晴委員講的"},{"start":2461.48,"end":2464.92,"text":"那如果中聯列席就是當門神的話"},{"start":2465.08,"end":2468.8,"text":"那台中不是就最該被當成門神嗎"},{"start":2468.96,"end":2472.88,"text":"那中央到現在為止有吃案有蓋牌嗎"},{"start":2473.04,"end":2475,"text":"那衛福部長已經幾度釐清"},{"start":2475.16,"end":2478.08,"text":"這整個事件都送檢調中"},{"start":2478.2400000000002,"end":2480.36,"text":"而且他們在第一時間"},{"start":2480.44,"end":2485.2000000000003,"text":"專家的一個會議就決定中聯停止再生產"},{"start":2485.36,"end":2488.2400000000002,"text":"那我不瞭解就是當大家期待"},{"start":2488.4,"end":2490.36,"text":"我們就是要來修食安法"},{"start":2490.52,"end":2492.36,"text":"不管台唐的責任"},{"start":2492.52,"end":2496.08,"text":"或是任何一個就是送檢驗的"},{"start":2496.2400000000002,"end":2498.84,"text":"包含檢驗單位第三方檢驗"},{"start":2499,"end":2502.1200000000003,"text":"都應該客責他必須立刻通報"},{"start":2502.28,"end":2503.84,"text":"為什麼這件事情不做"},{"start":2504,"end":2505.7200000000003,"text":"那卻要變更議程"},{"start":2505.88,"end":2510.1200000000003,"text":"拿一個政治上非常不公平的一個說法"},{"start":2510.2799999999997,"end":2513.7999999999997,"text":"想要繼續抹黑衛福部繼續抹黑中央"},{"start":2513.96,"end":2518.12,"text":"那這到底是唯為就照在幫台中市政府嗎"},{"start":2518.2799999999997,"end":2522.4,"text":"我們都已經看到台南市政府高雄市政府"},{"start":2522.56,"end":2527.64,"text":"甚至屏東縣政府做的檢驗都比台中好"},{"start":2527.7999999999997,"end":2528.96,"text":"也比台北強"},{"start":2529.12,"end":2534.4,"text":"那大家在這邊一味的政治口水抹黑中央"},{"start":2534.56,"end":2537.96,"text":"持續說衛福部是蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":2538.12,"end":2539.44,"text":"那你們的目的是什麼"},{"start":2539.6,"end":2542.68,"text":"你不就是延宕了食安法的修法"},{"start":2542.84,"end":2544.48,"text":"那整個社會你去問一下"},{"start":2544.64,"end":2547.68,"text":"大家都已經知道現在在市面上"},{"start":2547.84,"end":2551.84,"text":"這一些會讓人擔心的食品全部都下架了"},{"start":2552,"end":2553.2400000000002,"text":"所以大家關心的是"},{"start":2553.4,"end":2556.04,"text":"未來如何不要再發生這樣的事"},{"start":2556.2000000000003,"end":2559.76,"text":"那既然每個政黨都說要修食安法"},{"start":2559.92,"end":2563.36,"text":"那你今天這樣排下去除了政治口水之外"},{"start":2563.88,"end":2566.16,"text":"那難道不就是食安法延宕"},{"start":2566.32,"end":2567.7200000000003,"text":"今天就不用修了嗎"},{"start":2567.9599999999996,"end":2570.7999999999997,"text":"那為什麼今天可以不要修食安法"},{"start":2570.9599999999996,"end":2572.7599999999998,"text":"等一下 唸一下條文"},{"start":2572.9199999999996,"end":2574.3599999999997,"text":"今天就過去了"},{"start":2574.52,"end":2577,"text":"那大家講的要立刻修"},{"start":2577.16,"end":2578.9599999999996,"text":"上凱道講的立刻修"},{"start":2579.12,"end":2581.6,"text":"那是不是在欺騙社會大眾"},{"start":2581.7599999999998,"end":2585.08,"text":"我想你們如果回去問一下你們選區的選民"},{"start":2585.24,"end":2587.3599999999997,"text":"他一定是希望速修食安法"},{"start":2587.52,"end":2589.6,"text":"朝野不要再政治口水"},{"start":2589.7599999999998,"end":2593,"text":"今天我不知道這個周偉這個標題怎麼定的"},{"start":2593.16,"end":2595.72,"text":"中央一味蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":2595.8799999999997,"end":2597.2799999999997,"text":"那你為什麼要這樣子"},{"start":2597.48,"end":2600.32,"text":"就是中央難道沒有解釋過很多次"},{"start":2600.48,"end":2602.6800000000003,"text":"沒有吃案 沒有門神的事"},{"start":2602.84,"end":2604.7200000000003,"text":"沒有蓋牌的事情"},{"start":2604.88,"end":2606.2000000000003,"text":"周偉要公道"},{"start":2606.36,"end":2609.1600000000003,"text":"每一個人的選區的選民都關心食安"},{"start":2609.32,"end":2612,"text":"我們作為立委絕對是食安"},{"start":2612.1600000000003,"end":2617.1600000000003,"text":"是我們每天上班下班都關心的一個個人的權益"},{"start":2617.32,"end":2620.0800000000004,"text":"民進黨的立委對衛福部的監督沒有比較少"},{"start":2620.2400000000002,"end":2622.8,"text":"不要玩這種政治口水打假球"},{"start":2623.48,"end":2624.84,"text":"好 再釋放一個人"},{"start":2625,"end":2626.56,"text":"現在接下來請邱霍入委員"},{"start":2633.3,"end":2634.98,"text":"主席還有各位委員"},{"start":2635.1400000000003,"end":2637.5,"text":"還有各位政府部門同仁大家好"},{"start":2637.6600000000003,"end":2642.86,"text":"那這個從6月30號石油獨遊事件爆發至今"},{"start":2643.0200000000004,"end":2644.0600000000004,"text":"已經一個多月了"},{"start":2644.2200000000003,"end":2648.3,"text":"那我們看到的是一個政府荒腔走板的一個演出"},{"start":2648.46,"end":2650.6600000000003,"text":"首先就是公布業者向擠牙膏"},{"start":2650.82,"end":2653.5,"text":"預防性下架也向擠牙膏"},{"start":2653.6600000000003,"end":2657.1000000000004,"text":"處理食安事件完全是失職跟失能"},{"start":2657.26,"end":2659.26,"text":"一個20%的會議紀錄"},{"start":2659.42,"end":2660.5400000000004,"text":"神秘的下架原則"},{"start":2660.7000000000003,"end":2662.38,"text":"現在還說不清楚講不明白"},{"start":2662.46,"end":2666.38,"text":"我們原本以為這個荒腔走板的劇情"},{"start":2666.54,"end":2671.2200000000003,"text":"應該是稍微貧脅已經接近入幕的一個終點了"},{"start":2671.38,"end":2674.06,"text":"結果沒想到爆出更荒腔走板的劇情"},{"start":2674.2200000000003,"end":2679.98,"text":"就是發現台糖發現這個超標的這個"},{"start":2680.84,"end":2682.6000000000004,"text":"石油卻沒有通報"},{"start":2682.76,"end":2685.76,"text":"我們只能夠說荒腔走板的劇情是"},{"start":2685.92,"end":2688.76,"text":"沒有最荒唐只有更荒唐"},{"start":2688.92,"end":2696.1600000000003,"text":"那台糖的這個發現石油出現了超標的一個問題"},{"start":2696.32,"end":2699.5600000000004,"text":"結果南橋因為沒有通報被開罰"},{"start":2699.7200000000003,"end":2701.92,"text":"但是台糖卻沒有被開罰"},{"start":2702.0800000000004,"end":2705,"text":"請問這中間有沒有雙標的問題"},{"start":2705.1600000000003,"end":2706.88,"text":"值得大家來檢視"},{"start":2707.0400000000004,"end":2710.4,"text":"但是我們的石部長卻說"},{"start":2710.52,"end":2713.48,"text":"追究台糖他不知道邏輯是什麼"},{"start":2713.64,"end":2717.52,"text":"我們的次長說出油請問是能吃嗎"},{"start":2717.6800000000003,"end":2720.96,"text":"我們的經濟部說爛菜根本就不用通報"},{"start":2721.12,"end":2723.28,"text":"我們的經濟部長說"},{"start":2723.44,"end":2727,"text":"地方政府多查好幾次就可以解決問題了"},{"start":2727.1600000000003,"end":2730.48,"text":"我們只看到中央政府不斷的在護航"},{"start":2730.64,"end":2733.6800000000003,"text":"業者不斷的在護航這個台糖"},{"start":2733.84,"end":2738.32,"text":"請問一下我們的中央主管機關還存在嗎"},{"start":2738.4,"end":2741.28,"text":"我們台灣是一個無政府的狀態嗎"},{"start":2741.44,"end":2743.1200000000003,"text":"說台糖沒有通報義務"},{"start":2743.28,"end":2745.84,"text":"馬上就被高檢署所打臉了"},{"start":2746,"end":2749.88,"text":"法律的解釋專家是高檢署是法律專家"},{"start":2750.04,"end":2752.6000000000004,"text":"我們剛講的經濟部長"},{"start":2752.76,"end":2755.1600000000003,"text":"我們剛講的衛福部長衛福部次長"},{"start":2755.32,"end":2758.8,"text":"你們都不是法律專家請不要曲解法律"},{"start":2758.96,"end":2761.84,"text":"再來我問請問一下台糖事件"},{"start":2762,"end":2764.6000000000004,"text":"我們一直到前兩天才知道"},{"start":2764.76,"end":2767.6800000000003,"text":"我就問石崇良部長你是什麼時候知道的"},{"start":2767.68,"end":2769.08,"text":"衛福部什麼時候知道的"},{"start":2769.24,"end":2771.12,"text":"經濟部長什麼時候知道的"},{"start":2771.2799999999997,"end":2774.68,"text":"還有就是我們的行政院長什麼時候知道的"},{"start":2774.8399999999997,"end":2777.3999999999996,"text":"為什麼兩個禮拜之前的這個"},{"start":2777.56,"end":2780.2,"text":"到行政院所做的這個食安傳報"},{"start":2780.3599999999997,"end":2782.52,"text":"完全對這件事支支不停"},{"start":2782.68,"end":2785.52,"text":"我們只看到政府不斷的在蓋牌"},{"start":2785.68,"end":2787.04,"text":"不斷的在隱匿"},{"start":2787.2,"end":2788.56,"text":"我現在想要呼籲"},{"start":2788.72,"end":2791.12,"text":"我們的政府不管是石崇良部長也好"},{"start":2791.2799999999997,"end":2793.52,"text":"或者是行政院長不要打臉"},{"start":2793.68,"end":2796.44,"text":"當年的這個台南市市長賴清德"},{"start":2796.68,"end":2798.52,"text":"賴清德在做市長的時候"},{"start":2798.68,"end":2801.88,"text":"也對於食安的疑慮非常的關切"},{"start":2802.04,"end":2804.04,"text":"所以對於食品有食安疑慮"},{"start":2804.2000000000003,"end":2806.48,"text":"業者要在48小時內通報"},{"start":2806.64,"end":2809.64,"text":"如果今天石部長還有我們的官員"},{"start":2809.8,"end":2812.6,"text":"完全否認這個台糖的通報義務"},{"start":2812.76,"end":2815.4,"text":"那就是現在的政府去打臉"},{"start":2815.56,"end":2817.48,"text":"當時的台南市的政府"},{"start":2817.64,"end":2820.96,"text":"也就是我們的賴清德市長"},{"start":2821.12,"end":2822.64,"text":"所以我們在這邊呼籲"},{"start":2822.8,"end":2826.04,"text":"我們的政府應該要拿出你們的良知"},{"start":2826.12,"end":2827.64,"text":"跟拿出你們的良能"},{"start":2827.8,"end":2831.16,"text":"通報不只要靠法律也要靠良心"},{"start":2831.32,"end":2833.72,"text":"不能夠用一條食安法的第七條"},{"start":2833.88,"end":2835.72,"text":"來扭曲來誤解"},{"start":2835.88,"end":2838.2,"text":"然後就說台糖沒有通報的義務"},{"start":2838.36,"end":2839.6,"text":"還有行政院長呢"},{"start":2839.7599999999998,"end":2842.68,"text":"你說不適任的官員你自然會處理"},{"start":2842.84,"end":2845.48,"text":"處理到現在請問處理了哪一位"},{"start":2845.64,"end":2847.04,"text":"然後就沒有然後了"},{"start":2847.2,"end":2848.92,"text":"對於獨有世界荒腔走板"},{"start":2849.08,"end":2850.64,"text":"就是讓我們看到這整個政府"},{"start":2850.8,"end":2853.8,"text":"就是處理到最後然後就沒有然後了"},{"start":2853.96,"end":2855.36,"text":"頂多只是讓我們看到"},{"start":2855.52,"end":2857.52,"text":"不斷的蓋牌跟保庇而已"},{"start":2857.6800000000003,"end":2858.84,"text":"以上說明謝謝"},{"start":2859,"end":2860.04,"text":"謝謝邱輝瑞委員"},{"start":2860.2000000000003,"end":2861.96,"text":"接下來請王政旭委員"},{"start":2875.82,"end":2877.0600000000004,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2877.2200000000003,"end":2880.1800000000003,"text":"我想今天大家會覺得很壓抑"},{"start":2880.34,"end":2882.2200000000003,"text":"因為我們本來就已經排定好"},{"start":2882.38,"end":2886.1400000000003,"text":"有一個要審非常重要的食安法的議程"},{"start":2886.3,"end":2890.7000000000003,"text":"不過我們當然要尊重主席排案的權責"},{"start":2890.86,"end":2893.46,"text":"因為本來我們有37案"},{"start":2893.6200000000003,"end":2896.1800000000003,"text":"針對於食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":2897.4,"end":2900.7200000000003,"text":"條文的修正草案要進來一開始"},{"start":2900.88,"end":2903.8,"text":"走完程序就要進入到這個"},{"start":2903.96,"end":2905.48,"text":"逐條審查的階段"},{"start":2905.64,"end":2908.36,"text":"可是呢很可惜啊我們這個主席"},{"start":2908.97,"end":2911.25,"text":"我們在這個尊重主席的權責的同時"},{"start":2911.41,"end":2913.49,"text":"我們也覺得用這個"},{"start":2913.6499999999996,"end":2915.33,"text":"針對一個專報的題目"},{"start":2915.49,"end":2917.33,"text":"用這個標題來帶風向"},{"start":2917.49,"end":2920.33,"text":"用政治口水來取代真正"},{"start":2920.49,"end":2922.49,"text":"要急著修法的部分呢"},{"start":2922.6499999999996,"end":2924.25,"text":"真的這不是人民的期待"},{"start":2924.41,"end":2926.0899999999997,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":2926.25,"end":2929.73,"text":"我覺得實在是令我感到失望"},{"start":2929.89,"end":2932.1299999999997,"text":"因為我們從這個標題就可以讀得出來"},{"start":2932.29,"end":2934.69,"text":"這個真的是用政治口水的味道"},{"start":2934.85,"end":2936.0499999999997,"text":"實在是太重了"},{"start":2936.21,"end":2938.57,"text":"從這個自癌的這個"},{"start":2938.73,"end":2940.8500000000004,"text":"自癌有事件發展到今天"},{"start":2941.01,"end":2945.17,"text":"中央一位蓋牌施案當門審"},{"start":2945.3300000000004,"end":2947.77,"text":"有關這個行政究責的這個"},{"start":2947.9300000000003,"end":2951.21,"text":"重做完整調查報告等等的內容來看"},{"start":2951.3700000000003,"end":2952.9700000000003,"text":"實在是讓我們覺得"},{"start":2953.13,"end":2955.65,"text":"如果要把這個時間花在這邊"},{"start":2955.8100000000004,"end":2958.8100000000004,"text":"如果我們可以一開始就能夠"},{"start":2958.9700000000003,"end":2962.17,"text":"逐條來針對我們要審查的這些"},{"start":2962.3300000000004,"end":2965.8100000000004,"text":"重要的案件來做調理或做處理"},{"start":2965.93,"end":2969.13,"text":"我個人感覺會重要了很多"},{"start":2969.29,"end":2973.13,"text":"現在這個現行的施案法裡面"},{"start":2973.29,"end":2977.13,"text":"都在著重相關的這個查驗產品端"},{"start":2977.29,"end":2980.13,"text":"未來應該要擴及到整個實務的製程"},{"start":2980.29,"end":2982.29,"text":"這個是大家都有的共識"},{"start":2982.45,"end":2986.97,"text":"所以我們期待如果能夠有好的逐條審查"},{"start":2987.74,"end":2988.74,"text":"我們很擔心"},{"start":2988.8999999999996,"end":2991.1,"text":"如果下午才開始逐條審查的話"},{"start":2991.2599999999998,"end":2992.3799999999997,"text":"很快的可能"},{"start":2993.05,"end":2995.2900000000004,"text":"練完這些條文以後"},{"start":2995.4500000000003,"end":2999.57,"text":"可能只剩下一點點的時間能夠來開始審查"},{"start":2999.73,"end":3004.53,"text":"明天我們又沒有時間來審查這個"},{"start":3005.86,"end":3007.3,"text":"相關的這個提案"},{"start":3007.46,"end":3009.1400000000003,"text":"所以真的很可惜"},{"start":3009.3,"end":3010.86,"text":"我們本來有很充裕的時間"},{"start":3011.02,"end":3013.5,"text":"可以能夠充分的來釐清"},{"start":3013.6600000000003,"end":3015.54,"text":"在這個修法過程裡面"},{"start":3015.7000000000003,"end":3017.46,"text":"我們必須要去注意到的問題"},{"start":3017.6200000000003,"end":3019.58,"text":"比如說在這個過程裡面"},{"start":3019.7400000000002,"end":3021.34,"text":"行政院本來也希望能夠成立"},{"start":3021.5,"end":3024.86,"text":"食安指揮中心來加強罰則等等"},{"start":3025.02,"end":3028.82,"text":"還有在針對第三方那個查驗的過程裡面"},{"start":3028.98,"end":3033.26,"text":"如果有20小時的結果在出現以後"},{"start":3033.42,"end":3035.26,"text":"應該要馬上來通報主管機關"},{"start":3035.3,"end":3036.3,"text":"這些需求"},{"start":3036.46,"end":3038.26,"text":"這個都可以充分的討論"},{"start":3038.42,"end":3041.34,"text":"才能夠讓這部食安法的修法"},{"start":3041.5,"end":3044.1000000000004,"text":"充分的讓達到這個人民的期待"},{"start":3044.26,"end":3048.3,"text":"所以我個人是很希望大家能夠"},{"start":3049,"end":3050.92,"text":"不要再用這樣的方式"},{"start":3051.08,"end":3053.6,"text":"來針對食安的部分做訴求"},{"start":3053.76,"end":3054.6,"text":"而是應該"},{"start":3071.84,"end":3074.44,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員大家早"},{"start":3075.52,"end":3077.32,"text":"修法非常重要"},{"start":3077.48,"end":3079.72,"text":"但追真相也很重要"},{"start":3079.88,"end":3081.32,"text":"民眾每天看新聞"},{"start":3081.48,"end":3083.64,"text":"只覺得真相到底在哪裡"},{"start":3083.8,"end":3086.08,"text":"還有多少油沒有被揭露"},{"start":3086.2400000000002,"end":3089.88,"text":"還有多少油已經被吃下肚子"},{"start":3090.04,"end":3093.48,"text":"還有多少行政瑕疵沒有處理"},{"start":3093.64,"end":3096.2,"text":"我們今天看到這麼多的報告"},{"start":3096.36,"end":3098.52,"text":"這幾天這麼多的新市政"},{"start":3098.68,"end":3100.32,"text":"我們一定要質詢"},{"start":3100.48,"end":3102.68,"text":"質詢才知道漏洞在哪裡"},{"start":3102.84,"end":3104.56,"text":"才知道破口在哪裡"},{"start":3104.6,"end":3108,"text":"才知道法條還有哪些地方沒有完整"},{"start":3108.16,"end":3109.7999999999997,"text":"我們才能做好修法"},{"start":3109.96,"end":3111.48,"text":"所以真相很重要"},{"start":3111.64,"end":3113.12,"text":"修法同等重要"},{"start":3113.2799999999997,"end":3114.44,"text":"沒有不修法"},{"start":3114.6,"end":3116.32,"text":"下午就要修法"},{"start":3116.48,"end":3119.04,"text":"我們來看一下今天報紙的頭版"},{"start":3119.77,"end":3121.69,"text":"為什麼真相很重要"},{"start":3121.85,"end":3125.37,"text":"上週石崇良部長在這邊說"},{"start":3125.91,"end":3129.47,"text":"這個20%的專家學者會議"},{"start":3129.63,"end":3133.5899999999997,"text":"雖然有中聯的總經理 廠長"},{"start":3133.75,"end":3136.1099999999997,"text":"還有一位今天終於揭露了"},{"start":3136.27,"end":3137.87,"text":"看起來應該是科長"},{"start":3138.93,"end":3140.1299999999997,"text":"有練習"},{"start":3140.29,"end":3145.6099999999997,"text":"但是這場會議分成上下良長"},{"start":3145.77,"end":3150.5699999999997,"text":"可是我請各位打開報紙的頭版看一看"},{"start":3150.73,"end":3153.77,"text":"哪邊寫著上下良長"},{"start":3153.93,"end":3154.93,"text":"沒有"},{"start":3155.0899999999997,"end":3159.0099999999998,"text":"哪邊寫著請業者離席"},{"start":3159.1699999999996,"end":3160.1699999999996,"text":"沒有"},{"start":3160.33,"end":3163.85,"text":"再來有一個更可怕的地方是"},{"start":3164.0099999999998,"end":3168.5299999999997,"text":"第三位還沒有被收押的"},{"start":3168.77,"end":3171.77,"text":"中聯代表到現在"},{"start":3171.9300000000003,"end":3178.21,"text":"他都知道專家ABCDEFG是誰"},{"start":3178.9,"end":3181.58,"text":"他可以告訴非常多人"},{"start":3181.7400000000002,"end":3184.86,"text":"他可以做很多很多的運作"},{"start":3185.02,"end":3189.06,"text":"這就是為什麼我們今天需要追出真相"},{"start":3189.2200000000003,"end":3190.54,"text":"再來修法"},{"start":3190.7000000000003,"end":3192.1400000000003,"text":"我們必須質詢"},{"start":3192.3,"end":3193.98,"text":"我們才能知道說"},{"start":3194.1400000000003,"end":3197.78,"text":"這個整個政府監督的系統"},{"start":3197.94,"end":3199.86,"text":"到底是出了什麼問題"},{"start":3200.58,"end":3201.62,"text":"再來"},{"start":3202.1,"end":3205.5,"text":"石崇亮部長8月2號的時候對外說"},{"start":3205.66,"end":3208.54,"text":"他不知道台唐的責任在哪裡"},{"start":3208.7,"end":3211.7799999999997,"text":"他不知道高雄市政府的責任在哪裡"},{"start":3211.94,"end":3214.38,"text":"但是8月1號前一天晚上"},{"start":3214.54,"end":3215.86,"text":"他又叫食藥署"},{"start":3216.02,"end":3218.54,"text":"又叫大家去問高雄市政府"},{"start":3218.7,"end":3220.94,"text":"為什麼兩天前後不一"},{"start":3221.1,"end":3223.98,"text":"8月1號食藥署叫所有的記者媒體"},{"start":3224.14,"end":3226.18,"text":"去問高雄市政府"},{"start":3226.34,"end":3228.5,"text":"8月2號石崇亮部長說"},{"start":3228.66,"end":3231.38,"text":"不知道高雄市政府有什麼問題"},{"start":3231.38,"end":3234.9,"text":"昨天8月3號高雄市政府跟大家說"},{"start":3235.06,"end":3238.1800000000003,"text":"他們已經收集好所有的資料"},{"start":3238.34,"end":3242.82,"text":"希望送到台南市政府去釐清"},{"start":3242.98,"end":3244.34,"text":"那高雄市政府"},{"start":3244.5,"end":3246.98,"text":"顯然是沒有聽石崇亮部長的話"},{"start":3247.1400000000003,"end":3249.54,"text":"高雄市政府就做自己的步調"},{"start":3249.7000000000003,"end":3251.7000000000003,"text":"因此我們也必須清楚的"},{"start":3251.86,"end":3253.2200000000003,"text":"藉由今天的質詢"},{"start":3253.38,"end":3254.7400000000002,"text":"還有今天的修法"},{"start":3254.9,"end":3258.5,"text":"來釐清中央還有地方政府的責任"},{"start":3258.6600000000003,"end":3260.02,"text":"到底在哪裡"},{"start":3260.2599999999998,"end":3262.94,"text":"所以今天我們國民黨團民眾黨團"},{"start":3263.1,"end":3265.62,"text":"就是主張先追真相"},{"start":3265.78,"end":3267.1,"text":"先找出漏洞"},{"start":3267.2599999999998,"end":3268.46,"text":"再來一同修法"},{"start":3268.62,"end":3269.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3269.92,"end":3271.2400000000002,"text":"謝謝陳青輝委員"},{"start":3271.4,"end":3272.84,"text":"接下來請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":3280.98,"end":3281.86,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3282.02,"end":3285.42,"text":"剛剛有委員提到說不要雙標"},{"start":3286.4,"end":3289.84,"text":"我想問有誰比民進黨更雙標"},{"start":3290.46,"end":3292.02,"text":"有人說不要打假球"},{"start":3292.1800000000003,"end":3294.26,"text":"有誰比民進黨更打假球"},{"start":3295.65,"end":3297.09,"text":"這件事情發生到現在"},{"start":3297.25,"end":3299.65,"text":"我們看到的是官官相護"},{"start":3299.81,"end":3301.01,"text":"修食安法這麼重要"},{"start":3301.17,"end":3302.05,"text":"當然也重要"},{"start":3302.21,"end":3303.01,"text":"下午也要修"},{"start":3303.17,"end":3305.01,"text":"可是到現在為止"},{"start":3305.17,"end":3308.05,"text":"我相信人民看到現在的發生的情況"},{"start":3308.21,"end":3311.21,"text":"我都在想修食安法到底有沒有用"},{"start":3311.37,"end":3313.33,"text":"現在我們看到的是行政部門"},{"start":3313.4900000000002,"end":3317.17,"text":"國營企業彼此之間官官相護"},{"start":3317.95,"end":3320.31,"text":"居然5月台糖就知道了"},{"start":3320.47,"end":3322.31,"text":"結果沒有通報"},{"start":3322.47,"end":3323.1499999999996,"text":"沒有通報"},{"start":3323.31,"end":3326.75,"text":"現在政府各部門卻還在維護台糖"},{"start":3326.91,"end":3328.31,"text":"說他是乖寶寶"},{"start":3328.47,"end":3330.71,"text":"說沒有通報的義務"},{"start":3332.2599999999998,"end":3335.8199999999997,"text":"連高檢署的檢察官都出來打臉"},{"start":3335.98,"end":3338.22,"text":"說通報是法定的義務"},{"start":3340.09,"end":3343.8500000000004,"text":"我們看到台糖的總公司在台南"},{"start":3344.01,"end":3345.53,"text":"另外法治上面"},{"start":3345.69,"end":3349.29,"text":"也適用於當時賴清德當市長的時候"},{"start":3349.4500000000003,"end":3353.17,"text":"台南市的食品安全管理自治條例第八條"},{"start":3353.3300000000004,"end":3355.73,"text":"食品業者發現上游供應之食品"},{"start":3355.8900000000003,"end":3360.29,"text":"有危害消費者生命身體或健康之餘的時候"},{"start":3360.4500000000003,"end":3364.4100000000003,"text":"因自發現起48小時之內主動通報"},{"start":3365.5,"end":3366.7,"text":"本府的衛生局"},{"start":3367.85,"end":3371.13,"text":"台糖發現問題有品的部門在高雄"},{"start":3371.29,"end":3375.81,"text":"適用高雄市的食品安全管理自治條例第十條"},{"start":3375.97,"end":3380.09,"text":"食品製造業者發現食品有危害消費者生命"},{"start":3380.25,"end":3382.77,"text":"身體健康或財產之餘時"},{"start":3383.41,"end":3387.45,"text":"除因依相關法令通報主管機關"},{"start":3387.6099999999997,"end":3389.49,"text":"或目的事業主管機關外"},{"start":3389.65,"end":3393.85,"text":"並應該主動對外說明及提出消費者補償方案"},{"start":3394.0099999999998,"end":3397.6099999999997,"text":"而依食安法的第三條第一項第一款"},{"start":3397.77,"end":3402.65,"text":"食品是指工人飲食或咀嚼的產品及其原料"},{"start":3402.81,"end":3403.81,"text":"原料"},{"start":3404.3,"end":3409.1400000000003,"text":"也就是台糖知道其原料商中聯有紙有品原料"},{"start":3409.3,"end":3412.1800000000003,"text":"有問題的時候依上述的自治條例"},{"start":3412.34,"end":3417.26,"text":"台糖總公司就應該要通報台南市政府的衛生局"},{"start":3417.42,"end":3421.3,"text":"台糖的有品部門分公司應該主動對外說明"},{"start":3421.46,"end":3424.0600000000004,"text":"而不是只是告訴中聯有紙"},{"start":3425.34,"end":3427.5,"text":"所以剛剛講到我們都很擔心"},{"start":3427.6600000000003,"end":3430.46,"text":"依照現在的政府的態度"},{"start":3430.6200000000003,"end":3431.98,"text":"官官相護的態度"},{"start":3432.57,"end":3433.69,"text":"蓋牌的態度"},{"start":3434.62,"end":3436.7799999999997,"text":"現在修法是不是真的有用"},{"start":3439.16,"end":3443.72,"text":"之前食藥署在辣椒粉蘇丹紅事件的時候也說"},{"start":3445.88,"end":3447.6400000000003,"text":"為了維護民眾身體健康"},{"start":3447.8,"end":3450.44,"text":"再次提醒基於自主管理及企業社會責任"},{"start":3450.6000000000004,"end":3451.96,"text":"請確認原料安全"},{"start":3452.1200000000003,"end":3454.7200000000003,"text":"以確保產品之安全衛生"},{"start":3456.7599999999998,"end":3457.7599999999998,"text":"再來開會的時候"},{"start":3457.9199999999996,"end":3461.3199999999997,"text":"在2024年3月11號也是食藥署的時候"},{"start":3461.48,"end":3464,"text":"還有自主通報有疑慮之產品"},{"start":3464.16,"end":3469.3599999999997,"text":"食品業者於發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之餘"},{"start":3469.52,"end":3473.16,"text":"應主動停止製造加工販賣及辦理回收"},{"start":3473.3199999999997,"end":3476.2799999999997,"text":"並通報直轄市縣市主管機關"},{"start":3476.4399999999996,"end":3479.04,"text":"違反者應該要依食安法第47條"},{"start":3479.2,"end":3483.16,"text":"第二款除新台幣3萬以上3百萬以下的罰鍰"},{"start":3483.86,"end":3485.02,"text":"食藥署重申"},{"start":3485.1800000000003,"end":3488.5800000000004,"text":"藉由嚴格把關源頭支援料安全"},{"start":3488.7400000000002,"end":3493.06,"text":"並透過政府及業者攜手守護食安"},{"start":3493.2200000000003,"end":3495.34,"text":"堅決遏制不法行為"},{"start":3496.99,"end":3499.43,"text":"食安法的根本用意不就是"},{"start":3500.45,"end":3502.21,"text":"民進黨一直在講的食安五環"},{"start":3502.37,"end":3506.6499999999996,"text":"不就是應該從源頭保護人民食品的安全嗎"},{"start":3506.81,"end":3507.85,"text":"讓大家吃得安心"},{"start":3508.0099999999998,"end":3510.6099999999997,"text":"這不是人民最基本的需求"},{"start":3510.77,"end":3512.97,"text":"和最基本想要的東西嗎"},{"start":3513.1299999999997,"end":3516.37,"text":"但是現在的行政部門看到的還是一樣"},{"start":3516.5299999999997,"end":3518.6099999999997,"text":"居然可以說這不是原料"},{"start":3519.46,"end":3523.26,"text":"居然可以說台糖不勝爆是好寶寶好棒棒"},{"start":3524.45,"end":3527.0099999999998,"text":"這是讓人民痛心疾首的地方"},{"start":3527.17,"end":3528.77,"text":"所以剛剛還有委員說對於"},{"start":3529.52,"end":3532.92,"text":"這個主席排審對於這個主題感到很失望"},{"start":3533.64,"end":3538.3199999999997,"text":"我想現在全體人民最失望的是現在的民進黨政府"},{"start":3540.95,"end":3542.19,"text":"謝謝廖委員"},{"start":3542.35,"end":3543.99,"text":"接下來請李坤城委員"},{"start":3550.97,"end":3552.73,"text":"他要登記了"},{"start":3564.12,"end":3565.72,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3566.93,"end":3568.33,"text":"基本上怎麼樣"},{"start":3569.83,"end":3572.47,"text":"基本上今天這個衛門會"},{"start":3572.63,"end":3573.75,"text":"所排的這一個"},{"start":3574.27,"end":3577.47,"text":"蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":3577.63,"end":3578.95,"text":"這個專案報告"},{"start":3579.11,"end":3582.87,"text":"這個專案報告基本上就是先射箭再劃靶"},{"start":3583.5299999999997,"end":3584.89,"text":"先射箭再劃靶"},{"start":3585.0499999999997,"end":3587.7299999999996,"text":"你說這個台糖有沒有問題"},{"start":3587.89,"end":3589.29,"text":"有沒有通報的義務"},{"start":3590.14,"end":3593.66,"text":"如果說按照目前的這個食安法的第七條"},{"start":3594.24,"end":3596.68,"text":"他們的台糖是買的是原料"},{"start":3597.7,"end":3600.2599999999998,"text":"不像這個南僑買的是產品"},{"start":3600.82,"end":3604.34,"text":"如果說大家認為說原料也要有通報的義務的話"},{"start":3604.5,"end":3606.5800000000004,"text":"那我們就來修食安法"},{"start":3606.7400000000002,"end":3612.78,"text":"修食安法不是現在我們今天應該要來討論的主題嗎"},{"start":3613.51,"end":3614.63,"text":"但是呢我看"},{"start":3615.82,"end":3618.78,"text":"這個再也得要排一個蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":3619.88,"end":3622.4,"text":"這個我覺得比較適用在"},{"start":3622.56,"end":3623.56,"text":"盧秀燕"},{"start":3624.54,"end":3626.18,"text":"比較適用在盧秀燕"},{"start":3626.7799999999997,"end":3629.3399999999997,"text":"為什麼當中聯出問題的時候"},{"start":3629.5,"end":3633.3399999999997,"text":"盧秀燕要蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":3634.01,"end":3637.53,"text":"為什麼在野黨要這麼緊張的"},{"start":3637.69,"end":3639.2900000000004,"text":"要這麼惶恐的"},{"start":3639.4500000000003,"end":3642.61,"text":"趕快要把責任推給台糖"},{"start":3642.7700000000004,"end":3643.9700000000003,"text":"因為他們知道說"},{"start":3644.13,"end":3648.73,"text":"其實真正製造問題的地方是在中聯"},{"start":3648.8900000000003,"end":3651.65,"text":"中聯就在台中"},{"start":3651.8100000000004,"end":3656.05,"text":"台中市政府為什麼這八年只查了一次"},{"start":3656.21,"end":3659.21,"text":"那一次還是配合食藥署去查的"},{"start":3659.9,"end":3663.26,"text":"如果說台中市政府這八年有好好的查的話"},{"start":3663.42,"end":3667.1800000000003,"text":"我想中聯不至於發生這個製造問題有的問題"},{"start":3667.34,"end":3670.2200000000003,"text":"所以誰是真正在蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":3670.88,"end":3671.84,"text":"盧秀燕"},{"start":3673.54,"end":3677.74,"text":"為什麼這一黨要急著當中聯的門神"},{"start":3677.9,"end":3679.66,"text":"趕快把責任推給台糖"},{"start":3679.82,"end":3681.46,"text":"你們把責任推給台糖的時候"},{"start":3681.62,"end":3685.18,"text":"你們不就是在當中聯的門神嗎"},{"start":3685.34,"end":3687.82,"text":"你們就是在當中聯有恥的門神"},{"start":3688.47,"end":3692.27,"text":"更何況盧秀燕連台南在做什麼"},{"start":3692.43,"end":3693.71,"text":"她根本搞不清楚"},{"start":3694.63,"end":3697.23,"text":"還說在台南這個有通報的義務"},{"start":3697.3900000000003,"end":3700.23,"text":"就就被這個洪偉哲市長打臉了"},{"start":3701.32,"end":3703.7200000000003,"text":"這樣盧秀燕現在連食用油"},{"start":3703.88,"end":3706.28,"text":"跟這個器材油都搞不清楚了嗎"},{"start":3707.2,"end":3709.3999999999996,"text":"不要一味的幫盧秀燕護航"},{"start":3709.56,"end":3713.56,"text":"在我們立法院排這一種所謂的專案報告"},{"start":3713.72,"end":3715,"text":"這個專案報告"},{"start":3715.16,"end":3720.3199999999997,"text":"這幾個字我原封不動的送還給盧秀燕"},{"start":3720.48,"end":3721.7599999999998,"text":"還要送還給誰"},{"start":3722.39,"end":3724.15,"text":"也送給蔣萬安"},{"start":3724.31,"end":3726.99,"text":"這幾個字也很適合蔣萬安"},{"start":3728.16,"end":3732.16,"text":"這個台北市的兒虐案件連環報"},{"start":3732.3199999999997,"end":3735.08,"text":"這個夏立是幼兒園"},{"start":3735.24,"end":3738.52,"text":"這個問題請問一下蔣萬安有處理了嗎"},{"start":3739.27,"end":3740.67,"text":"因為蔣萬安沒有處理"},{"start":3740.83,"end":3744.23,"text":"所以我們等一下我們黨團"},{"start":3744.39,"end":3748.07,"text":"特別會提出一個臨時的提案"},{"start":3748.23,"end":3749.23,"text":"這個要求"},{"start":3749.96,"end":3751.4,"text":"這個為什麼燈光按下來了"},{"start":3754.23,"end":3756.27,"text":"要求衛福部跟教育部"},{"start":3756.43,"end":3759.79,"text":"就台北市政府在兒虐的案件上面"},{"start":3759.95,"end":3763.79,"text":"一味的蓋牌 施案 當門神"},{"start":3763.95,"end":3765.9900000000002,"text":"還有職權行使適當"},{"start":3766.15,"end":3767.87,"text":"權責分工不清"},{"start":3768.03,"end":3771.71,"text":"行政怠惰 監督失靈等情況"},{"start":3771.87,"end":3774.03,"text":"請台北市政府提出調查報告"},{"start":3774.19,"end":3777.43,"text":"來確保兒童受教權益身心安全"},{"start":3777.59,"end":3779.59,"text":"所以這幾個字"},{"start":3779.75,"end":3781.47,"text":"蓋牌施案當門神"},{"start":3781.63,"end":3784.07,"text":"就在這邊原封不動"},{"start":3784.23,"end":3788.83,"text":"送給要當中聯有子門神的盧秀燕"},{"start":3788.9900000000002,"end":3791.07,"text":"還有他的徒子徒孫們"},{"start":3791.23,"end":3792.9900000000002,"text":"還有送給蔣萬安"},{"start":3795,"end":3796,"text":"謝謝您的觀賞"},{"start":3797.33,"end":3799.29,"text":"接下來請羅庭委員"},{"start":3799.45,"end":3804.09,"text":"陳旭發言登記截止"},{"start":3820.91,"end":3822.6699999999996,"text":"不好意思 先會議請問一下"},{"start":3822.83,"end":3825.1099999999997,"text":"那個發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":3831.4,"end":3833.8,"text":"我們剛看到范英委員"},{"start":3833.96,"end":3835.1600000000003,"text":"在講話的時候非常卡"},{"start":3836.02,"end":3837.22,"text":"完全都沒有順起來"},{"start":3838.1,"end":3838.98,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":3839.82,"end":3841.06,"text":"就是感覺到"},{"start":3841.64,"end":3843.2799999999997,"text":"他們都覺得心虛"},{"start":3844.3,"end":3845.82,"text":"今天其實我剛上來"},{"start":3845.98,"end":3846.7000000000003,"text":"我沒有要發言"},{"start":3847.73,"end":3848.77,"text":"但是我特別登記"},{"start":3849.61,"end":3850.65,"text":"登記的原因是什麼"},{"start":3852.12,"end":3853.7599999999998,"text":"我要特別感謝李昆辰"},{"start":3854.74,"end":3856.9799999999996,"text":"謝謝昆辰 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PAO CANADA .com"},{"start":4722.32,"end":4724.32,"text":"請問您有問題"},{"start":4724.32,"end":4727.32,"text":"嗯 沒事吧 請慢一點"},{"start":4732.07,"end":4735.07,"text":"好 請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":4735.07,"end":4736.07,"text":"OK 謝謝"},{"start":4738.77,"end":4740.77,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":4740.77,"end":4742.77,"text":"有關這個提案"},{"start":4742.77,"end":4750.77,"text":"7月4日當天的專家會議相關記錄或影音錄音檔、文件資料"},{"start":4750.77,"end":4757.77,"text":"事實上我們在日前就已經全部送交檢調機關來查明"},{"start":4757.77,"end":4760.77,"text":"讓大家以正視聽"},{"start":4760.77,"end":4761.77,"text":"這個我們已經做了"},{"start":4762.53,"end":4763.53,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4763.62,"end":4765.62,"text":"從剛剛第一個提案"},{"start":4765.62,"end":4768.62,"text":"那麼這樣的扭曲跟指控"},{"start":4768.62,"end":4771.62,"text":"我覺得非常的痛心、遺憾"},{"start":4771.62,"end":4774.62,"text":"所以謝謝委員本案的提案"},{"start":4774.62,"end":4779.62,"text":"我們今天就會把所有的會議記錄公開"},{"start":4781.01,"end":4782.01,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4787.28,"end":4788.28,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4788.13,"end":4790.13,"text":"前面的委員有沒有意見"},{"start":4790.13,"end":4791.13,"text":"沒有"},{"start":4794.71,"end":4796.71,"text":"如果沒有意見就在案通過"},{"start":4799.06,"end":4800.06,"text":"宣讀第三案"},{"start":4801.46,"end":4802.46,"text":"第三案"},{"start":4871,"end":4875,"text":"提案委員林月請留建國、黃秀芳、王振旭、陳瑩宣讀完畢"},{"start":4876.59,"end":4878.59,"text":"請現在機關表示意見"},{"start":4882.98,"end":4884.98,"text":"主席跟各位委員"},{"start":4884.98,"end":4886.98,"text":"我想這個額虐事件也好"},{"start":4886.98,"end":4888.98,"text":"食安事件也好"},{"start":4889.33,"end":4891.33,"text":"那麼在這些事件上的處理上"},{"start":4892.57,"end":4896.57,"text":"一項都是由中央制定相關的政策"},{"start":4896.57,"end":4897.57,"text":"相關的指引"},{"start":4898.27,"end":4901.27,"text":"那麼地方需要去落實執行"},{"start":4901.27,"end":4904.27,"text":"中央跟地方一起合作無間"},{"start":4904.27,"end":4908.27,"text":"才能夠真正杜絕這些食安的事件"},{"start":4908.27,"end":4910.27,"text":"跟額虐的事件"},{"start":4910.27,"end":4912.27,"text":"所以對於一連串發生的這樣的"},{"start":4912.27,"end":4914.27,"text":"台北市的這些額虐事件"},{"start":4914.27,"end":4918.27,"text":"我們深深的感到痛心"},{"start":4918.27,"end":4922.27,"text":"那麼我們一定會來跟台北市政府"},{"start":4922.27,"end":4924.27,"text":"那麼一起就這些事件上"},{"start":4924.27,"end":4927.27,"text":"那麼儘速的提出一些報告"},{"start":4927.27,"end":4929.27,"text":"來確保我們兒童的受教權益"},{"start":4929.27,"end":4931.27,"text":"跟身心安全"},{"start":4931.27,"end":4933.27,"text":"所以本案我們競表同意"},{"start":4934.69,"end":4936.69,"text":"好前面委員有沒有意見"},{"start":4937.23,"end":4937.73,"text":"有"},{"start":4942.31,"end":4942.81,"text":"好"},{"start":4944.54,"end":4945.04,"text":"補充說明"},{"start":4955.75,"end":4959.25,"text":"在我們2026年的7月"},{"start":4959.25,"end":4962.25,"text":"又爆發了我們台北市的夏立思幼兒"},{"start":4963.1,"end":4965.1,"text":"圓的集團"},{"start":4965.3,"end":4967.3,"text":"再度的爆發額虐"},{"start":4967.3,"end":4969.3,"text":"今天2025年的2月"},{"start":4969.3,"end":4974.3,"text":"就已經有多達76起的不當對待"},{"start":4974.3,"end":4977.3,"text":"在我們的夏立思幼兒園的天母分園"},{"start":4977.3,"end":4979.3,"text":"受害孩子13人"},{"start":4979.3,"end":4982.3,"text":"結果照樣我們的蔣市長"},{"start":4982.3,"end":4985.3,"text":"還是把他親筆的感謝卡"},{"start":4985.3,"end":4988.3,"text":"跟全家福的合照作為招生宣傳"},{"start":4988.3,"end":4991.3,"text":"導致家長繼續把孩子送到"},{"start":4991.3,"end":4993.3,"text":"我們的夏立思幼兒園"},{"start":4993.95,"end":4995.95,"text":"那今年"},{"start":4996.84,"end":4998.84,"text":"再度的再發生"},{"start":4998.84,"end":5001.84,"text":"為什麼在2025年2月的時候"},{"start":5001.84,"end":5004.84,"text":"發生這麼樣重大的76起的不當對待"},{"start":5004.84,"end":5006.84,"text":"一個幼兒園可以76起"},{"start":5006.84,"end":5008.84,"text":"然後13個孩子受害"},{"start":5008.84,"end":5011.84,"text":"那市府完全沒有列管追蹤"},{"start":5011.84,"end":5014.84,"text":"那也沒有對於該連鎖集團"},{"start":5014.84,"end":5016.84,"text":"進行更嚴格的管控"},{"start":5016.84,"end":5019.84,"text":"反而事實上讓他的感謝卡"},{"start":5019.84,"end":5021.84,"text":"跟他的全家福合照"},{"start":5021.84,"end":5023.84,"text":"作為招生的宣傳"},{"start":5023.84,"end":5025.84,"text":"讓家長真的認為蔣市長"},{"start":5025.84,"end":5027.84,"text":"如果是寡婆情的"},{"start":5027.84,"end":5029.84,"text":"那安全教保都安全無虞"},{"start":5029.84,"end":5031.84,"text":"讓孩子繼續送那邊"},{"start":5031.84,"end":5034.84,"text":"結果今年度又再發生"},{"start":5034.84,"end":5036.84,"text":"那而且這該家幼兒園"},{"start":5036.84,"end":5037.84,"text":"除了虐童以外"},{"start":5037.84,"end":5040.84,"text":"還涉及到衛生缺失跟操守"},{"start":5041.66,"end":5043.66,"text":"還有消防安全之約問題"},{"start":5044.54,"end":5047.54,"text":"一個守善之都對我們的兒童"},{"start":5048.64,"end":5050.64,"text":"保護跟兒童安全"},{"start":5050.64,"end":5053.64,"text":"竟然事實上是這麼樣的漠視"},{"start":5053.64,"end":5055.64,"text":"那我覺得衛生福利部跟教育部"},{"start":5055.64,"end":5057.64,"text":"都應該要針對台北市政府"},{"start":5057.64,"end":5060.64,"text":"在兒虐案件上一昧的蓋牌"},{"start":5060.64,"end":5062.64,"text":"施案當門神"},{"start":5062.64,"end":5064.64,"text":"以及職權行使失當"},{"start":5064.64,"end":5066.64,"text":"職權分工不清"},{"start":5066.64,"end":5067.64,"text":"甚至"},{"start":5068.12,"end":5070.12,"text":"還有一個凱斯幼兒園也是"},{"start":5070.12,"end":5071.12,"text":"改名字繼續"},{"start":5071.12,"end":5075.12,"text":"然後又連發了三起的兒虐不當對待"},{"start":5077.21,"end":5080.21,"text":"真的事實上是我們台北市的孩子的福氣嗎"},{"start":5080.59,"end":5082.59,"text":"都一直在講少子話"},{"start":5082.59,"end":5085.59,"text":"可是有真的把我們的孩子當寶貝嗎"},{"start":5085.59,"end":5087.59,"text":"如果是三寶寶的話"},{"start":5087.59,"end":5088.59,"text":"那應該要把我們的孩子"},{"start":5088.59,"end":5090.59,"text":"每個孩子當自己的孩子"},{"start":5090.59,"end":5092.59,"text":"而不是任由自己的孩子"},{"start":5092.59,"end":5093.59,"text":"很受到保護"},{"start":5093.59,"end":5096.59,"text":"結果台北市的市民的孩子"},{"start":5096.59,"end":5097.59,"text":"根本不當一回事"},{"start":5097.59,"end":5100.59,"text":"所以我們也希望趕快提出"},{"start":5100.59,"end":5101.59,"text":"我們的調查報告"},{"start":5101.59,"end":5102.59,"text":"來確保我們孩子"},{"start":5102.59,"end":5104.59,"text":"受教權益跟身心安全"},{"start":5104.59,"end":5105.59,"text":"以上"},{"start":5107,"end":5108,"text":"請問我有沒有意義"},{"start":5110.39,"end":5112.39,"text":"沒有意義我們就照提案內容通過"},{"start":5113.88,"end":5115.88,"text":"現在進行第四案"},{"start":5117.1,"end":5118.1,"text":"第四案"},{"start":5136.95,"end":5138.95,"text":"請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":5143.08,"end":5146.08,"text":"這一案跟前一案的提案是相同"},{"start":5146.08,"end":5151.08,"text":"也是對於台北市連續發生的這些兒虐事件"},{"start":5151.08,"end":5153.08,"text":"那麼我們會來進行檢討"},{"start":5153.08,"end":5154.08,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":5154.08,"end":5156.08,"text":"我剛剛已經提到"},{"start":5156.08,"end":5159.08,"text":"這個都是需要中央跟地方的合作"},{"start":5159.08,"end":5162.08,"text":"那麼特別是地方首長的重視"},{"start":5162.08,"end":5164.08,"text":"更是這個成敗的關鍵"},{"start":5164.08,"end":5166.08,"text":"所以這個我們會來提出"},{"start":5166.95,"end":5168.95,"text":"好謝謝請問我有沒有意見"},{"start":5170.21,"end":5172.21,"text":"沒有意見我們就按照提案內容通過"},{"start":5174.06,"end":5176.06,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢"},{"start":5176.07,"end":5178.07,"text":"好接著介紹在場委員"},{"start":5180.01,"end":5181.01,"text":"李玉琴 詹瑋"},{"start":5183.17,"end":5184.17,"text":"完整區委員"},{"start":5186.29,"end":5187.29,"text":"劉建國委員"},{"start":5188.13,"end":5189.13,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":5190.17,"end":5191.17,"text":"藏語委員"},{"start":5192.13,"end":5193.13,"text":"陳怡委員"},{"start":5194.49,"end":5195.49,"text":"王立民委員"},{"start":5197.21,"end":5198.21,"text":"圖權集委"},{"start":5199.98,"end":5200.98,"text":"廖維祥委員"},{"start":5202.15,"end":5203.15,"text":"蘇青權委員"},{"start":5204.38,"end":5205.38,"text":"邱振軍委員"},{"start":5206.8,"end":5207.8,"text":"陳金輝委員"},{"start":5209.77,"end":5210.77,"text":"邱振入委員"},{"start":5212.18,"end":5213.18,"text":"介紹列席官員"},{"start":5213.18,"end":5215.18,"text":"衛生福利部石崇洋部長"},{"start":5216.82,"end":5217.82,"text":"江志剛署長"},{"start":5219.64,"end":5223.64,"text":"行政院消費者保護處處長鍾瑞蘭"},{"start":5224.87,"end":5226.87,"text":"食品安全辦公室主任徐甫"},{"start":5228.21,"end":5231.21,"text":"教育部學情教育署副署長蓋十分"},{"start":5234.28,"end":5237.28,"text":"國防部後勤管理處處長賀志豪"},{"start":5239.6,"end":5243.6,"text":"陸軍副使公務中心主任江振賢"},{"start":5244.85,"end":5246.85,"text":"經濟部常務處長賴建信"},{"start":5249.07,"end":5251.07,"text":"國民事業管理師市長胡文中"},{"start":5252.93,"end":5254.93,"text":"法治師專委林雨馨"},{"start":5257.15,"end":5259.15,"text":"長官署署長谷宇松"},{"start":5261.25,"end":5263.25,"text":"草拔署署長蔡群儀"},{"start":5265.81,"end":5268.81,"text":"台糖股份有限公司副總經理蔡東霖"},{"start":5270.6,"end":5272.6,"text":"法務部主任檢察官蔡元貞"},{"start":5275.14,"end":5277.14,"text":"司法衛生司法官楊書蘭"},{"start":5282.97,"end":5285.97,"text":"接下來請衛生福利部石成良部長就專題進行報告"},{"start":5292.42,"end":5294.42,"text":"主席跟各位委員"},{"start":5294.42,"end":5300.42,"text":"以下就今天大院所關切的中聯食品"},{"start":5300.42,"end":5305.42,"text":"中聯油脂公司的油脂案進行報告"},{"start":5305.42,"end":5311.42,"text":"本案是在115年6月30日下午46分"},{"start":5312.43,"end":5316.43,"text":"才接獲到中聯油脂股份有限公司通報"},{"start":5316.43,"end":5324.43,"text":"對於他的大豆沙拉有不符食品安全衛生管理法的相關本篇筆的鈔票規定"},{"start":5324.43,"end":5327.43,"text":"我們就立即啟動了應變的機制"},{"start":5327.43,"end":5329.43,"text":"那麼首先第一呢"},{"start":5329.43,"end":5336.43,"text":"在7月1號就會同台中市政府這個食安處前往中聯公司查核"},{"start":5336.43,"end":5345.43,"text":"並且要求中聯公司7月1號開始就已經停止了大豆沙拉油的製造及出貨"},{"start":5345.43,"end":5352.43,"text":"包含那麼今天那麼台糖沒有採購的這個脫膠出油的部分"},{"start":5352.43,"end":5356.43,"text":"一樣不能夠持續進行加工製造"},{"start":5356.43,"end":5358.43,"text":"更不可出貨"},{"start":5358.43,"end":5362.43,"text":"那麼在為釐清原因跟改善"},{"start":5362.43,"end":5363.43,"text":"進"},{"start":5363.85,"end":5368.85,"text":"地方主管機關審查通過之前不得恢復作業"},{"start":5369.23,"end":5370.23,"text":"那麼第二呢"},{"start":5370.23,"end":5376.23,"text":"那麼在這個事件之後也立即啟動了下架回收的作業"},{"start":5376.23,"end":5380.23,"text":"在7月4號召開了專家會議"},{"start":5380.23,"end":5384.23,"text":"那麼逐步擴大預防性下架作為"},{"start":5384.23,"end":5392.23,"text":"直到7月9號那麼宣布全面性4到6月的中聯的製造油品"},{"start":5392.23,"end":5397.23,"text":"全面在7月10號中午12點之前完成下架"},{"start":5398.21,"end":5401.21,"text":"那麼第三我們擴大了抽驗"},{"start":5401.21,"end":5404.21,"text":"為了確保所有油品的安全性"},{"start":5404.21,"end":5408.21,"text":"那麼食藥署啟動擴大的抽驗"},{"start":5408.21,"end":5414.21,"text":"針對4到6月所生產的30批的油品全素抽驗"},{"start":5416.15,"end":5431.15,"text":"那麼最終確認共有7批是不合格的油品不得上架"},{"start":5431.15,"end":5432.15,"text":"那麼其餘呢"},{"start":5432.15,"end":5437.15,"text":"則在7月21號那麼召開了食品風險評估致意會"},{"start":5437.15,"end":5439.15,"text":"確認檢驗結果之後"},{"start":5439.15,"end":5440.15,"text":"那麼"},{"start":5441.88,"end":5448.88,"text":"19批油品及其檢驗合格的產品那麼可以重新的上架"},{"start":5448.88,"end":5451.88,"text":"至於尚未出貨的原油"},{"start":5451.88,"end":5460.88,"text":"仍然維持在中聯的這個廠方不得在這一次的上架的範圍"},{"start":5460.88,"end":5463.88,"text":"那麼至於這個調查的報告"},{"start":5463.88,"end":5470.88,"text":"我們也在7月21號那麼有這個獨立的這個專家小組進場調查"},{"start":5470.88,"end":5475.88,"text":"我們也已經在7月27號公佈了調查的結果"},{"start":5475.88,"end":5481.88,"text":"那麼呈現本次的事件主要是來自於高風險的原料"},{"start":5481.88,"end":5486.88,"text":"為搭配製程及檢驗的監測管理所致"},{"start":5488,"end":5491,"text":"那麼也給予相關的這個"},{"start":5492.1,"end":5496.1,"text":"檢討的要求那麼由地方政府去落實執行"},{"start":5496.1,"end":5499.1,"text":"那麼至於今天大家所關切的"},{"start":5499.1,"end":5502.1,"text":"台糖在5月11日"},{"start":5502.1,"end":5507.1,"text":"自中聯公司取樣油槽檢體送驗"},{"start":5507.1,"end":5511.1,"text":"那麼7月15號檢驗結果呈現"},{"start":5511.1,"end":5515.1,"text":"未達其合約的驗收標準"},{"start":5515.1,"end":5519.1,"text":"而未於採購收貨的相關疑義"},{"start":5519.1,"end":5521.1,"text":"那麼我也做以下的說明"},{"start":5521.1,"end":5526.1,"text":"依照食安法第3條第一款的規定"},{"start":5526.1,"end":5531.1,"text":"所稱食品為公飲食或咀嚼之"},{"start":5533.46,"end":5536.46,"text":"這個產品及其原料"},{"start":5537.33,"end":5541.33,"text":"那麼食安法的第7條第5項也明定"},{"start":5541.33,"end":5546.33,"text":"食品業者對於產品有危害健康治癒的時候"},{"start":5546.33,"end":5550.33,"text":"應該要向主管機關進行通報"},{"start":5551.21,"end":5554.21,"text":"那麼這個是法律上那麼明定"},{"start":5554.21,"end":5556.21,"text":"那麼我們當然可以理解"},{"start":5556.21,"end":5559.21,"text":"那麼各位委員跟國人對於食安"},{"start":5559.21,"end":5562.21,"text":"那麼我們絕對是用最高的標準"},{"start":5562.21,"end":5565.21,"text":"那麼希望能夠達到這個"},{"start":5565.21,"end":5569.21,"text":"國人的這個飲食的安全"},{"start":5569.21,"end":5571.21,"text":"那麼不過在法律上"},{"start":5571.21,"end":5574.21,"text":"那麼我們必須也要依法的行政"},{"start":5574.21,"end":5576.21,"text":"那麼以本案來講"},{"start":5576.21,"end":5580.21,"text":"那麼他所當時候的採購對象"},{"start":5580.21,"end":5583.21,"text":"對象為脫交原油"},{"start":5583.21,"end":5585.21,"text":"那麼脫交原油呢"},{"start":5585.21,"end":5590.21,"text":"是在食用大豆沙拉油製成當中的中間產品"},{"start":5590.21,"end":5594.21,"text":"那麼上不適屬於法定的產"},{"start":5594.21,"end":5596.21,"text":"最終的這個產品"},{"start":5596.21,"end":5601.21,"text":"而我們所訂的這個食品安全標準"},{"start":5601.21,"end":5607.21,"text":"那麼是按照食安法第17條所訂的這個"},{"start":5608.15,"end":5614.15,"text":"叫做直接供食品中汙染物質及毒素衛生標準"},{"start":5614.15,"end":5620.15,"text":"那麼所訂的是針對是食用油脂的這個扁平皮標準"},{"start":5620.15,"end":5622.15,"text":"那麼因此對照之下"},{"start":5622.15,"end":5627.15,"text":"那麼並沒有脫交原油的這個標準"},{"start":5627.15,"end":5631.15,"text":"所以這個是跟大院來說明"},{"start":5631.15,"end":5635.15,"text":"那麼至於外界也提到這個辣椒粉"},{"start":5635.15,"end":5639.15,"text":"違法使用蘇丹紅那麼這個通報"},{"start":5639.15,"end":5643.15,"text":"辣椒粉本身就已經是產品"},{"start":5643.15,"end":5645.15,"text":"那麼蘇丹紅呢"},{"start":5645.15,"end":5647.15,"text":"則是禁用物質"},{"start":5647.15,"end":5651.15,"text":"那麼不屬於食品安全衛生標準所訂的標準"},{"start":5651.15,"end":5653.15,"text":"他是不得添加"},{"start":5653.15,"end":5657.15,"text":"那麼因此當時候我們才會明確的"},{"start":5657.15,"end":5659.15,"text":"因為他是不得添加"},{"start":5659.15,"end":5661.15,"text":"所以不論是在原料"},{"start":5661.15,"end":5664.15,"text":"或者是產品都不可以出現"},{"start":5664.15,"end":5669.15,"text":"所以這個是兩者之間不可以相同並論"},{"start":5669.15,"end":5670.15,"text":"所以簡單的講"},{"start":5670.15,"end":5676.15,"text":"我們所訂的扁平皮標準是針對食用油脂"},{"start":5676.15,"end":5681.15,"text":"而這一次的爭議對象是脫交原油"},{"start":5681.15,"end":5684.15,"text":"那麼他並不是食用油脂"},{"start":5684.15,"end":5687.15,"text":"那麼他上有其他的用途"},{"start":5687.15,"end":5689.15,"text":"譬如他可以做肥皂"},{"start":5689.15,"end":5692.15,"text":"譬如他可以去做工業油"},{"start":5692.15,"end":5696.15,"text":"所以這個是也跟各位委員說一個說明"},{"start":5696.15,"end":5700.15,"text":"那麼至於消費團體訴訟的進度"},{"start":5700.15,"end":5704.15,"text":"那麼行政院的消費者保護處"},{"start":5704.15,"end":5708.15,"text":"在7月9號也已經召開團體訴訟的會議"},{"start":5708.15,"end":5711.15,"text":"來協調消保團體"},{"start":5711.15,"end":5714.15,"text":"包含台銷會跟消極會"},{"start":5714.15,"end":5718.15,"text":"來受理民眾的請求損害賠償"},{"start":5718.15,"end":5723.15,"text":"那麼後續也會以食安基金來給予"},{"start":5723.15,"end":5727.15,"text":"在雙方訴訟過程當中的費用的支持"},{"start":5727.15,"end":5729.15,"text":"那麼以上的報告"},{"start":5729.15,"end":5731.15,"text":"再請大院委員指教"},{"start":5733.14,"end":5734.14,"text":"現在開始詢答"},{"start":5734.14,"end":5735.14,"text":"做一下宣告"},{"start":5735.14,"end":5739.14,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":5739.14,"end":5741.14,"text":"本會委員詢討時間6加2分鐘"},{"start":5741.14,"end":5743.14,"text":"列席委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":5743.14,"end":5745.14,"text":"4點半截止發言登記"},{"start":5745.14,"end":5747.14,"text":"委員沒有書面質詢前"},{"start":5747.14,"end":5749.14,"text":"散會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":5749.14,"end":5751.14,"text":"暫定4點半休息10分鐘"},{"start":5751.14,"end":5755.14,"text":"現在請登記地位委員林業請召委發言"},{"start":5760.67,"end":5762.67,"text":"謝謝主席有請時部長"},{"start":5766.79,"end":5768.79,"text":"委員好"},{"start":5767.97,"end":5769.97,"text":"部長早"},{"start":5769.97,"end":5771.97,"text":"我想中年由事件爆發以來"},{"start":5771.97,"end":5775.97,"text":"各種檢討的聲音都有"},{"start":5775.97,"end":5778.97,"text":"可是今天我本來很期待是要趕快討論食安法的"},{"start":5778.97,"end":5780.97,"text":"可是未卜足現有的法規的不足"},{"start":5780.97,"end":5782.97,"text":"可是但"},{"start":5783.55,"end":5785.55,"text":"國民黨變更議程"},{"start":5785.55,"end":5787.55,"text":"討論食安法的時間"},{"start":5787.55,"end":5789.55,"text":"拿來做政治卸責政治攻擊"},{"start":5789.55,"end":5791.55,"text":"事情已經很清楚了"},{"start":5791.55,"end":5793.55,"text":"中聯得知原料有問題的時候"},{"start":5793.55,"end":5795.55,"text":"能來繼續生產有問題的食用油"},{"start":5795.55,"end":5797.55,"text":"除了施法究責"},{"start":5797.55,"end":5799.55,"text":"還當然必須要補"},{"start":5799.55,"end":5801.55,"text":"修補我們食安法才能避免下一個中聯油"},{"start":5801.55,"end":5803.55,"text":"國民黨一下攻擊食藥署"},{"start":5803.55,"end":5805.55,"text":"一下子攻擊台糖"},{"start":5805.55,"end":5807.55,"text":"國民黨吵了一個多月"},{"start":5807.55,"end":5809.55,"text":"就是不講中聯油"},{"start":5809.55,"end":5811.55,"text":"當中聯油早"},{"start":5811.44,"end":5813.44,"text":"代罪羔羊就是國民黨"},{"start":5813.44,"end":5815.44,"text":"護航中聯油的策略"},{"start":5815.44,"end":5817.44,"text":"包括今天不討論食安法"},{"start":5817.44,"end":5819.44,"text":"也就是國民黨"},{"start":5819.44,"end":5821.44,"text":"護航中聯油的手段"},{"start":5821.44,"end":5823.44,"text":"所以今天用中央一昧的蓋牌"},{"start":5823.44,"end":5825.44,"text":"吃案當門神"},{"start":5825.44,"end":5827.44,"text":"作為專案報告的一個題目"},{"start":5827.44,"end":5829.44,"text":"這根本不是解決問題"},{"start":5829.44,"end":5831.44,"text":"而是拿來進行政治操作"},{"start":5831.44,"end":5833.44,"text":"如果真的這麼在乎食安"},{"start":5833.44,"end":5835.44,"text":"就應該要好好的花一天"},{"start":5835.44,"end":5837.44,"text":"好好的"},{"start":5838.48,"end":5840.48,"text":"審查然後把漏洞"},{"start":5840.48,"end":5842.48,"text":"補好來"},{"start":5842.48,"end":5844.48,"text":"所以今天最重要的"},{"start":5844.48,"end":5846.48,"text":"就是要先確認"},{"start":5846.48,"end":5848.48,"text":"台糖的油到底有沒有問題"},{"start":5848.48,"end":5850.48,"text":"有沒有變成問題油"},{"start":5850.48,"end":5852.48,"text":"被民眾吃下肚"},{"start":5852.48,"end":5854.48,"text":"我要直接請教部長"},{"start":5854.48,"end":5856.48,"text":"台糖到底有沒有使用中聯油的"},{"start":5856.48,"end":5858.48,"text":"這批有問題的油"},{"start":5858.48,"end":5860.48,"text":"台糖油是安全的嗎"},{"start":5860.94,"end":5862.94,"text":"這個跟委員說明"},{"start":5862.94,"end":5866.94,"text":"在從今年的一月到六月間"},{"start":5866.94,"end":5868.94,"text":"那麼台糖對他的油品的檢驗"},{"start":5868.94,"end":5870.94,"text":"他自主檢驗12次"},{"start":5870.94,"end":5872.94,"text":"那麼地方政府"},{"start":5872.94,"end":5874.94,"text":"也去抽驗了12次"},{"start":5874.94,"end":5876.94,"text":"那麼我們食藥署"},{"start":5876.94,"end":5878.94,"text":"也進場去抽驗了"},{"start":5878.94,"end":5880.94,"text":"8個樣次"},{"start":5880.94,"end":5882.94,"text":"所以32個檢驗"},{"start":5882.94,"end":5884.94,"text":"都是符合"},{"start":5894.38,"end":5896.38,"text":"時間到"},{"start":5896.38,"end":5898.38,"text":"可以按時間上庭了"},{"start":5940.89,"end":5942.89,"text":"稍微微整他"},{"start":5966.64,"end":5968.64,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5970.44,"end":5972.44,"text":"老師我們先休息10分鐘"},{"start":6065.02,"end":6067.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6070.46,"end":6072.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6151.2,"end":6153.2,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6154.19,"end":6156.19,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6158.55,"end":6160.55,"text":"沒事我跟"},{"start":6164,"end":6166,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6172.97,"end":6174.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6173.97,"end":6175.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6184.21,"end":6186.21,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6188.55,"end":6190.55,"text":"應該是對他們"},{"start":6221.08,"end":6223.08,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6223.97,"end":6225.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6229.74,"end":6231.74,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6265.14,"end":6267.14,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6436.76,"end":6438.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6557.17,"end":6559.17,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6561.01,"end":6563.01,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6569.97,"end":6571.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6607.56,"end":6609.56,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6611.05,"end":6613.05,"text":"我們下次回來"},{"start":6613.05,"end":6615.05,"text":"好大好大"},{"start":6615.05,"end":6617.05,"text":"再一下對不對"},{"start":6620.5,"end":6622.5,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6643.85,"end":6645.85,"text":"現在進行繼續開會"},{"start":6651.77,"end":6653.77,"text":"請部長"},{"start":6653.98,"end":6655.98,"text":"請李瑞請召委"},{"start":6659.6,"end":6661.6,"text":"主席謝謝"},{"start":6661.76,"end":6663.76,"text":"那部長你繼續講一下"},{"start":6663.76,"end":6665.76,"text":"我剛問的是說"},{"start":6665.76,"end":6667.76,"text":"有沒有用到這批問題油"},{"start":6667.76,"end":6669.76,"text":"然後台糖的油是安全的嗎"},{"start":6669.76,"end":6671.76,"text":"好跟委員說明"},{"start":6671.76,"end":6673.76,"text":"他這一批這個不符合"},{"start":6673.76,"end":6675.76,"text":"這個台糖的"},{"start":6675.76,"end":6677.76,"text":"他的允收標準的"},{"start":6677.76,"end":6679.76,"text":"脫膠原油"},{"start":6679.76,"end":6681.76,"text":"至今還在"},{"start":6681.76,"end":6683.76,"text":"這個中聯台中的中聯"},{"start":6683.76,"end":6685.76,"text":"那麼台中市"},{"start":6685.76,"end":6687.76,"text":"衛生局也是有封存"},{"start":6687.76,"end":6689.76,"text":"所以這個部分是"},{"start":6689.76,"end":6691.76,"text":"沒有流入到我們的"},{"start":6691.76,"end":6693.76,"text":"這個食品加工鏈裡面的"},{"start":6693.76,"end":6695.76,"text":"所以台糖是在中聯公司"},{"start":6695.76,"end":6697.76,"text":"發現油品異常後"},{"start":6697.76,"end":6699.76,"text":"第一時間就拒收了"},{"start":6699.76,"end":6701.76,"text":"那這批油現在目前也留在"},{"start":6701.76,"end":6703.76,"text":"我們的中聯油廠內"},{"start":6703.76,"end":6705.76,"text":"沒有送到台糖的高雄廠"},{"start":6705.76,"end":6707.76,"text":"也沒有投入生產"},{"start":6707.76,"end":6709.76,"text":"也沒有流入消費市場是不是"},{"start":6709.76,"end":6711.76,"text":"可是另外一家南橋"},{"start":6711.76,"end":6713.76,"text":"以致中聯油的油品有問題"},{"start":6713.76,"end":6715.76,"text":"難把中聯的問題油買回去"},{"start":6715.76,"end":6717.76,"text":"沒有依法通報"},{"start":6717.76,"end":6719.76,"text":"所以違反了食安法"},{"start":6719.76,"end":6721.76,"text":"然後受罰"},{"start":6721.76,"end":6723.76,"text":"所以我們得到的第一個結論"},{"start":6723.76,"end":6725.76,"text":"就是台糖拒收問題原料"},{"start":6725.76,"end":6729.76,"text":"所以沒有產出問題油的相關產品"},{"start":6729.76,"end":6733.76,"text":"那南橋是收購問題油持續使用"},{"start":6733.76,"end":6735.76,"text":"這應該是最大的差異"},{"start":6735.76,"end":6737.76,"text":"那接下來我們大家就會"},{"start":6737.76,"end":6739.76,"text":"很關心的問題就是說"},{"start":6739.76,"end":6741.76,"text":"為什麼台糖不用通報"},{"start":6741.76,"end":6743.76,"text":"那我現在就幫大家問清楚"},{"start":6743.76,"end":6745.76,"text":"首先我們來看法規"},{"start":6745.76,"end":6747.76,"text":"從中央法規的角度來看"},{"start":6747.76,"end":6749.76,"text":"依照現行的食安法"},{"start":6749.76,"end":6751.76,"text":"台糖市在原料端檢驗時"},{"start":6751.76,"end":6753.76,"text":"發現油品異常"},{"start":6753.76,"end":6755.76,"text":"那當下就拒收"},{"start":6755.76,"end":6757.76,"text":"中聯油的提供的半成品"},{"start":6757.76,"end":6760.76,"text":"這批油沒有進入到台糖工廠"},{"start":6760.76,"end":6761.76,"text":"沒有投入製程"},{"start":6761.76,"end":6764.76,"text":"更沒有成為食品進入市場"},{"start":6764.76,"end":6767.76,"text":"再來就是從地方主管機關"},{"start":6767.76,"end":6769.76,"text":"台南跟高雄的自製法規來看"},{"start":6769.76,"end":6771.76,"text":"這也並非台南市"},{"start":6771.76,"end":6774.76,"text":"食品安全管理自製條例"},{"start":6774.76,"end":6776.76,"text":"第八條所稱的食品"},{"start":6776.76,"end":6779.76,"text":"也因為它驗的事實上是脫膠原油"},{"start":6779.76,"end":6782.76,"text":"可以作為食用油和工業品"},{"start":6784.02,"end":6786.02,"text":"冷便筆衛生標準"},{"start":6786.02,"end":6790.02,"text":"適用對象必須要可直接工人使用"},{"start":6790.02,"end":6792.02,"text":"或直接作為食品加工用"},{"start":6792.02,"end":6795.02,"text":"所以因此台糖並無該條例"},{"start":6795.02,"end":6796.02,"text":"通報義務的適用"},{"start":6796.02,"end":6797.02,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":6797.02,"end":6799.02,"text":"從這兩個法規層面來看"},{"start":6799.29,"end":6802.29,"text":"台糖是否真的具有通報的義務"},{"start":6802.29,"end":6804.29,"text":"和你們當初解釋蘇丹紅"},{"start":6804.29,"end":6805.29,"text":"是同一個樣態嗎"},{"start":6806.6,"end":6809.6,"text":"好 我再跟委員仔細的說明"},{"start":6809.6,"end":6813.6,"text":"要先看這個食安法的第三條的名詞定義"},{"start":6813.6,"end":6815.6,"text":"在名詞定義所稱的食品"},{"start":6815.6,"end":6818.6,"text":"是包含了產品及其原料"},{"start":6818.6,"end":6821.6,"text":"所以產品跟原料是分開的"},{"start":6821.6,"end":6824.6,"text":"從第三條的名詞定義寫得很清楚"},{"start":6824.6,"end":6827.6,"text":"那麼通報是寫在第七條的第五項"},{"start":6827.6,"end":6832.6,"text":"指的是產品有健康危害之虞的通報"},{"start":6832.6,"end":6834.6,"text":"所以如果舊法論法"},{"start":6834.6,"end":6836.6,"text":"當然它是不包含原料"},{"start":6836.6,"end":6837.6,"text":"所以這個是法規上"},{"start":6837.6,"end":6841.6,"text":"未來要不要進行食安法的修法"},{"start":6841.6,"end":6843.6,"text":"把原料 半成品都納入"},{"start":6843.6,"end":6845.6,"text":"這個是可以來討論"},{"start":6845.6,"end":6848.6,"text":"不過主管機關依法行政的角度來看"},{"start":6848.6,"end":6850.6,"text":"確實是如此"},{"start":6850.6,"end":6852.6,"text":"那麼這個是第一個"},{"start":6852.6,"end":6856.6,"text":"第二個我們所訂的扁平比的標準"},{"start":6856.6,"end":6859.6,"text":"是按照食安法第17條所訂出的標準"},{"start":6859.6,"end":6863.6,"text":"指的是食用油脂的扁平比標準"},{"start":6863.6,"end":6867.6,"text":"我們並不是去訂原料或半成品"},{"start":6867.6,"end":6869.6,"text":"脫膠原油的標準"},{"start":6871.82,"end":6873.82,"text":"判斷有沒有超標的時候"},{"start":6873.82,"end":6876.82,"text":"看的是食用油脂"},{"start":6876.82,"end":6880.82,"text":"也就是它從中聯已經出批的"},{"start":6880.82,"end":6881.82,"text":"已經有批號的"},{"start":6881.82,"end":6884.82,"text":"出批的每一批的這些油脂"},{"start":6884.82,"end":6886.82,"text":"那麼在草裡面的"},{"start":6886.82,"end":6889.82,"text":"我們目前是沒有訂標準"},{"start":6889.82,"end":6891.82,"text":"而是要透過你的製程"},{"start":6891.82,"end":6894.82,"text":"去確保最終產品的符合標準"},{"start":6894.82,"end":6898.82,"text":"那麼從技術面還有相關的文獻來看"},{"start":6898.82,"end":6900.82,"text":"脫膠原油出來之後"},{"start":6900.82,"end":6905.82,"text":"後端它還要經過脫酸 脫色 脫臭"},{"start":6905.82,"end":6907.82,"text":"那麼在這個過程當中"},{"start":6907.82,"end":6908.82,"text":"它可以降低"},{"start":6908.82,"end":6915.82,"text":"可以到80%的BAP扁平比的濃度的下降"},{"start":6915.82,"end":6919.82,"text":"所以我們不會去訂在脫膠原油的濃度"},{"start":6919.82,"end":6921.82,"text":"而是訂在後端"},{"start":6921.82,"end":6922.82,"text":"這個觀念是在這裡"},{"start":6922.82,"end":6924.82,"text":"所以看起來事實非常清楚"},{"start":6924.82,"end":6926.82,"text":"一個是發現異常後"},{"start":6926.82,"end":6929.82,"text":"立即拒收 完全沒有使用"},{"start":6929.82,"end":6930.82,"text":"另外一個事實上是"},{"start":6930.82,"end":6934.82,"text":"明知有問題仍然買回去繼續使用"},{"start":6934.82,"end":6937.82,"text":"兩者的行為跟法律責任應該完全不同"},{"start":6937.82,"end":6940.82,"text":"不能夠混為一談"},{"start":6940.82,"end":6942.82,"text":"再來我們就回到核心"},{"start":6942.82,"end":6945.82,"text":"我不是想要護航台糖"},{"start":6945.82,"end":6949.82,"text":"而是要在這一檔說國營事業再幫忙蓋牌"},{"start":6949.82,"end":6952.82,"text":"完全就是混淆視聽 惡意毀謗"},{"start":6952.82,"end":6955.82,"text":"我想請大家回到台中地院的裁定書"},{"start":6955.82,"end":6957.82,"text":"裁定書之所以提到台糖"},{"start":6957.82,"end":6959.82,"text":"不是要證明台糖有問題"},{"start":6959.82,"end":6963.82,"text":"而是要證明中聯公司早就知道我們的油品異常"},{"start":6963.82,"end":6967.82,"text":"台糖已經把異常情況告訴中聯油"},{"start":6967.82,"end":6969.82,"text":"南僑也曾經向中聯油反映"},{"start":6969.82,"end":6972.82,"text":"但中聯油始終都沒有依法通報"},{"start":6972.82,"end":6975.82,"text":"這才是整起事件真正的核心"},{"start":6975.82,"end":6977.82,"text":"中聯油不是不知道"},{"start":6977.82,"end":6979.82,"text":"而是明明知道有問題"},{"start":6979.82,"end":6983.82,"text":"卻選擇隱瞞 讓食安風險持續存在"},{"start":6983.82,"end":6985.82,"text":"所以回到這次修法"},{"start":6985.82,"end":6987.82,"text":"要讓責任通報更加明確"},{"start":6987.82,"end":6989.82,"text":"就今天不好好審法案"},{"start":6989.82,"end":6994.82,"text":"反而用扣帽子 栽贓的專案報告來進行政治操作"},{"start":6994.82,"end":6996.82,"text":"我真的覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":6996.82,"end":6998.82,"text":"因為很多動員要補的話"},{"start":6998.82,"end":7000.82,"text":"一定要好好坐下來 好好的談"},{"start":7000.82,"end":7002.82,"text":"所以如果真的要追究責任"},{"start":7002.82,"end":7004.82,"text":"就應該追究中聯油本身"},{"start":7004.82,"end":7007.82,"text":"以及工廠所在地的地方主管機關"},{"start":7007.82,"end":7009.82,"text":"那個叫台中市政府"},{"start":7009.82,"end":7010.82,"text":"所以我想問部長"},{"start":7010.82,"end":7012.82,"text":"這次你們提出來草案"},{"start":7012.82,"end":7014.82,"text":"是否會建立更完善的通報責任"},{"start":7014.82,"end":7017.82,"text":"是不是說明一下這次修法的重點"},{"start":7017.82,"end":7019.82,"text":"我也要再次強調"},{"start":7019.82,"end":7021.82,"text":"蓋牌的是中聯"},{"start":7023.44,"end":7026.44,"text":"南橋他蓋牌"},{"start":7026.44,"end":7029.44,"text":"他沒有依照我們食安法的規定"},{"start":7029.44,"end":7031.44,"text":"在發現"},{"start":7031.42,"end":7034.42,"text":"這個產品有危害健康之虞的時候"},{"start":7034.42,"end":7036.42,"text":"就通報主管機關"},{"start":7036.42,"end":7038.42,"text":"所以蓋牌的是中聯"},{"start":7038.42,"end":7040.42,"text":"是泰山 是南橋"},{"start":7040.42,"end":7042.42,"text":"是福茂 是福壽"},{"start":7042.42,"end":7045.42,"text":"所以我們這一次在這個修法裡面會加重"},{"start":7045.42,"end":7047.42,"text":"沒有依法通報者"},{"start":7047.42,"end":7050.42,"text":"那麼我們把原本3萬到300萬"},{"start":7050.42,"end":7052.42,"text":"會提高到3000萬"},{"start":7052.42,"end":7054.42,"text":"來加重這個"},{"start":7054.42,"end":7058.42,"text":"為隱匿或者是為按時通報"},{"start":7058.42,"end":7060.42,"text":"那麼他的處分"},{"start":7060.42,"end":7063.42,"text":"那麼其他的通報的責任"},{"start":7063.42,"end":7064.42,"text":"我們也會再擴大"},{"start":7064.42,"end":7066.42,"text":"包含檢驗的實驗室"},{"start":7066.42,"end":7068.42,"text":"過去在食安法第七條"},{"start":7068.42,"end":7071.42,"text":"是針對食品業者通報的責任"},{"start":7071.42,"end":7073.42,"text":"那從這個事件裡面我們發現"},{"start":7073.42,"end":7074.42,"text":"其實檢驗端"},{"start":7074.42,"end":7077.42,"text":"他也已經發現有異常了"},{"start":7077.42,"end":7078.42,"text":"所以我們這一次修法"},{"start":7078.42,"end":7082.42,"text":"也把通報的義務擴及到檢驗端"},{"start":7082.42,"end":7085.42,"text":"也就是在這個檢驗室的部分"},{"start":7085.42,"end":7086.42,"text":"也要依法來通報"},{"start":7086.42,"end":7088.42,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":7088.97,"end":7090.97,"text":"這個非常重要"},{"start":7090.97,"end":7092.97,"text":"因為台中市政府"},{"start":7092.97,"end":7096.97,"text":"身為中聯公司的縣市主管機關"},{"start":7096.97,"end":7099.97,"text":"我們本來第二條就有很明確的"},{"start":7099.97,"end":7101.97,"text":"中央有中央主管機關"},{"start":7101.97,"end":7105.97,"text":"地方有地方的主管機關"},{"start":7105.97,"end":7107.97,"text":"那盧市長卻一再推脫"},{"start":7107.97,"end":7108.97,"text":"甩鍋時鐘說"},{"start":7108.97,"end":7110.97,"text":"不清楚自己的責任"},{"start":7110.97,"end":7112.97,"text":"現在一看到台糖就好像"},{"start":7115.33,"end":7117.33,"text":"甚至看到仇人一樣"},{"start":7117.33,"end":7120.33,"text":"大肆批評攻擊卻好像忘了"},{"start":7120.33,"end":7122.33,"text":"自己所在地事實上是台中市"},{"start":7122.33,"end":7124.33,"text":"才是這起事件"},{"start":7124.33,"end":7127.33,"text":"最應該負起查查責任的地方"},{"start":7127.33,"end":7128.33,"text":"依照食安法"},{"start":7128.33,"end":7130.33,"text":"台中市政府本來就負有"},{"start":7130.33,"end":7133.33,"text":"地方查查跟抽驗的責任"},{"start":7133.33,"end":7135.33,"text":"所以問題的根本"},{"start":7136.89,"end":7138.89,"text":"第一個除了中聯郵通報以外"},{"start":7138.89,"end":7139.89,"text":"第二個問題就是"},{"start":7139.89,"end":7142.89,"text":"我們的台中市政府盧市長"},{"start":7142.89,"end":7144.89,"text":"部長事發至今"},{"start":7144.89,"end":7146.89,"text":"我想基本的行政調查跟事實"},{"start":7146.89,"end":7147.89,"text":"你應該也掌握"},{"start":7147.89,"end":7150.89,"text":"如果從2024年至今"},{"start":7150.89,"end":7152.89,"text":"台中市政府有針對"},{"start":7152.89,"end":7156.89,"text":"中聯郵的本篇筆抽驗一次"},{"start":7156.89,"end":7157.89,"text":"一次就好"},{"start":7157.89,"end":7158.89,"text":"是不是早就發現"},{"start":7158.89,"end":7159.89,"text":"中聯郵有問題了"},{"start":7159.89,"end":7161.89,"text":"可是他們根本沒有驗過"},{"start":7161.89,"end":7162.89,"text":"沒有錯吧"},{"start":7162.89,"end":7163.89,"text":"他們驗了幾次"},{"start":7163.89,"end":7166.89,"text":"有一次是在我們113年"},{"start":7166.89,"end":7169.89,"text":"由食藥署啟動的專案"},{"start":7169.89,"end":7171.89,"text":"稽查的部分"},{"start":7171.89,"end":7174.89,"text":"要求要抽驗本篇筆那一次"},{"start":7174.89,"end":7177.89,"text":"所以市政府才是最需要"},{"start":7177.89,"end":7178.89,"text":"要負起責任"},{"start":7178.89,"end":7179.89,"text":"所以我希望說"},{"start":7179.89,"end":7181.89,"text":"未來在法的時候"},{"start":7181.89,"end":7184.89,"text":"要把各自的責任都已經講清楚"},{"start":7184.89,"end":7186.89,"text":"我覺得修了法"},{"start":7186.89,"end":7187.89,"text":"如果又不能落實"},{"start":7187.89,"end":7188.89,"text":"只會甩鍋"},{"start":7188.89,"end":7190.89,"text":"那基本上沒有辦法"},{"start":7190.89,"end":7191.89,"text":"讓我們的食安更安全"},{"start":7191.89,"end":7192.89,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":7192.89,"end":7193.89,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7193.89,"end":7195.89,"text":"謝謝聯業群照我的質詢"},{"start":7195.89,"end":7197.89,"text":"接下來請陳金輝委員"},{"start":7212.02,"end":7213.02,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7213.84,"end":7214.84,"text":"謝謝各位官員的出席"},{"start":7214.84,"end":7215.84,"text":"還有委員的出席"},{"start":7215.84,"end":7218.84,"text":"我想請石部長 江署長"},{"start":7218.84,"end":7220.84,"text":"還有徐副主任"},{"start":7221.18,"end":7223.18,"text":"請石部長 江署長"},{"start":7223.18,"end":7224.18,"text":"以及徐副主任"},{"start":7226.83,"end":7227.83,"text":"好 委員好"},{"start":7228.02,"end":7229.02,"text":"好"},{"start":7229.13,"end":7232.13,"text":"當然我覺得你們捲入這個風波啦"},{"start":7232.13,"end":7234.13,"text":"我也感到非常遺憾"},{"start":7234.13,"end":7237.13,"text":"不過有議員已經告發你們瀆職"},{"start":7237.13,"end":7239.13,"text":"有石部長 有江署長"},{"start":7239.13,"end":7242.13,"text":"還有昨天加了台唐的董事長"},{"start":7242.13,"end":7245.13,"text":"那議員昨天已經保全了證據"},{"start":7245.13,"end":7247.13,"text":"比如說會議的影音檔"},{"start":7247.13,"end":7249.13,"text":"或者是監視器"},{"start":7249.13,"end":7250.13,"text":"那之後呢"},{"start":7250.13,"end":7252.13,"text":"這些基層的人員"},{"start":7252.13,"end":7255.13,"text":"今天名字有被披露在報紙上"},{"start":7255.13,"end":7258.13,"text":"應該也會被一一叫去詢問"},{"start":7258.13,"end":7260.13,"text":"關於這個會議的內容"},{"start":7260.13,"end":7263.13,"text":"那再來應該也會傳在羈押裡面"},{"start":7263.13,"end":7267.13,"text":"這個總經理還有廠長去做詢問"},{"start":7267.13,"end":7270.13,"text":"所以今天這個議員也在看這段質詢"},{"start":7270.13,"end":7273.13,"text":"今天的答詢非常重要"},{"start":7273.13,"end":7275.13,"text":"一定要誠實的面對國人"},{"start":7275.13,"end":7276.13,"text":"誠實的報告"},{"start":7276.13,"end":7278.13,"text":"那我們先請江署長"},{"start":7281.39,"end":7283.39,"text":"江署長因為您上週不在"},{"start":7283.39,"end":7286.39,"text":"所以石部長幫您回覆了非常多的問題"},{"start":7286.39,"end":7289.39,"text":"可是從我們今天揭露這個的資訊"},{"start":7289.39,"end":7291.39,"text":"報紙上看到的資訊"},{"start":7291.39,"end":7294.39,"text":"我們發現您才是這場會議的主持人"},{"start":7294.39,"end":7296.39,"text":"這場會議是決定了"},{"start":7296.39,"end":7298.39,"text":"這個20%以上下架"},{"start":7298.39,"end":7301.39,"text":"20%以上可以保留"},{"start":7301.39,"end":7302.39,"text":"那另外呢"},{"start":7302.39,"end":7305.39,"text":"石部長也在上週幫您回答說"},{"start":7305.39,"end":7309.39,"text":"這個業者是有在這場會議中討論復工"},{"start":7309.39,"end":7311.39,"text":"那我想問一下"},{"start":7311.39,"end":7313.39,"text":"因為石部長上禮拜是回覆"},{"start":7313.39,"end":7315.39,"text":"這個會議分上下長次"},{"start":7315.39,"end":7317.39,"text":"可是我們今天所有人"},{"start":7317.39,"end":7321.39,"text":"印象中都停留在會議分上下長次"},{"start":7321.39,"end":7324.39,"text":"這個哪邊看得出來分上下長次"},{"start":7325.06,"end":7326.06,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":7326.06,"end":7329.06,"text":"這個會議分成兩個議題"},{"start":7329.06,"end":7333.06,"text":"第一個是檢視整個中聯這次的問題"},{"start":7333.06,"end":7336.06,"text":"所以我們請了專家來在油品的部分"},{"start":7336.06,"end":7338.06,"text":"製程的部分做進一步的說明"},{"start":7338.06,"end":7340.06,"text":"那第二個部分呢就是針對"},{"start":7340.06,"end":7344.06,"text":"我們根據106年下架回收的產品"},{"start":7344.06,"end":7346.06,"text":"裡面的下架階層"},{"start":7346.06,"end":7350.06,"text":"我們是定在因為是衛生安全標準"},{"start":7350.06,"end":7352.06,"text":"所以是屬於第八類"},{"start":7352.06,"end":7354.06,"text":"所以是在下架在議程"},{"start":7354.06,"end":7356.06,"text":"所以是在下架在議程"},{"start":7355.05,"end":7357.05,"text":"中聯製程"},{"start":7357.05,"end":7359.05,"text":"福壽福茂泰山的油品的部分"},{"start":7359.05,"end":7361.05,"text":"所以在7月"},{"start":7361.05,"end":7363.05,"text":"我們確定的第一層的"},{"start":7363.05,"end":7365.05,"text":"第一層我們看到有不同的聲音"},{"start":7365.05,"end":7368.05,"text":"由於7月3號媒體上面其實在討論"},{"start":7368.05,"end":7370.05,"text":"我們很清楚的我們對於"},{"start":7370.05,"end":7372.05,"text":"其實江市長"},{"start":7372.05,"end":7375.05,"text":"所以我們再重新思考第二個議題"},{"start":7375.05,"end":7377.05,"text":"我們只需要問出你會議"},{"start":7377.05,"end":7379.05,"text":"到底有沒有分上下兩場"},{"start":7379.05,"end":7382.05,"text":"因為石部長上週幫你回答"},{"start":7382.05,"end":7384.05,"text":"會議分上下兩場"},{"start":7384.05,"end":7386.05,"text":"應該是說我們會議裡面"},{"start":7386.05,"end":7387.05,"text":"只有兩個重要議題"},{"start":7387.05,"end":7389.05,"text":"上面第一個議題是"},{"start":7389.05,"end":7391.05,"text":"我們去中聯相關的"},{"start":7391.05,"end":7393.05,"text":"它本身的製程的是不是有議題"},{"start":7393.66,"end":7394.66,"text":"專家來協助"},{"start":7394.66,"end":7396.66,"text":"下半場我們針對說"},{"start":7396.66,"end":7398.66,"text":"第一層下架之下"},{"start":7398.66,"end":7400.66,"text":"是不是要往下走"},{"start":7400.66,"end":7401.66,"text":"所以這邊特別提到"},{"start":7401.66,"end":7402.66,"text":"是第二個議程的部分"},{"start":7403.3,"end":7404.3,"text":"廠商幾點離開"},{"start":7404.3,"end":7407.3,"text":"這個會議從3點開到5點"},{"start":7407.3,"end":7408.3,"text":"廠商幾點離開"},{"start":7409.17,"end":7411.17,"text":"廠商應該是有在我們現場"},{"start":7411.17,"end":7412.17,"text":"可是在我們第二層的"},{"start":7412.17,"end":7414.17,"text":"廠商全程都在現場"},{"start":7414.17,"end":7415.17,"text":"沒有"},{"start":7415.17,"end":7418.17,"text":"廠商是在我們的會議討論的過程當中"},{"start":7418.17,"end":7420.17,"text":"他進入我們的會議的議場"},{"start":7420.17,"end":7421.17,"text":"做完說明之後"},{"start":7421.17,"end":7424.17,"text":"我們繼續在討論後續的時候"},{"start":7424.17,"end":7426.17,"text":"沒有讓廠商做任何的發言"},{"start":7426.17,"end":7429.17,"text":"我們是在做第二層的一些思考"},{"start":7429.17,"end":7431.17,"text":"該如何去擴大的討論"},{"start":7431.17,"end":7432.17,"text":"你只要告訴我"},{"start":7432.17,"end":7435.17,"text":"因為你剛剛石部長也講得很輕鬆"},{"start":7435.17,"end":7437.17,"text":"他今天就會公布全部的會議紀錄"},{"start":7437.17,"end":7439.17,"text":"王宇穎委員要求他"},{"start":7439.17,"end":7441.17,"text":"在今天委員會結束以前"},{"start":7441.17,"end":7443.17,"text":"印出給所有的委員"},{"start":7443.17,"end":7444.17,"text":"所有的國人"},{"start":7444.17,"end":7446.17,"text":"所以你沒有什麼好隱瞞的了"},{"start":7446.17,"end":7447.17,"text":"你只要告訴我們"},{"start":7447.17,"end":7451.17,"text":"廠商幾點到幾點在現場"},{"start":7451.17,"end":7454.17,"text":"我們現在很明顯看到記錄上"},{"start":7454.17,"end":7455.17,"text":"有委員會你們的同仁"},{"start":7455.17,"end":7458.17,"text":"還有食藥署的副署長"},{"start":7458.17,"end":7461.1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我跟委員說明"},{"start":7545.44,"end":7546.44,"text":"我要問江署長"},{"start":7547.04,"end":7548.04,"text":"江署長"},{"start":7548.24,"end":7550.24,"text":"江署長你幾月幾日知道"},{"start":7550.24,"end":7552.24,"text":"台糖的這個事件"},{"start":7552.24,"end":7554.24,"text":"14.8PPB"},{"start":7554.24,"end":7556.24,"text":"你幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7557.04,"end":7558.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7558.04,"end":7559.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7559.04,"end":7560.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7560.04,"end":7561.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7561.04,"end":7562.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7562.04,"end":7563.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7563.04,"end":7564.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7564.04,"end":7565.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7565.04,"end":7566.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7566.04,"end":7567.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7567.04,"end":7568.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7568.04,"end":7569.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7569.04,"end":7570.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7570.04,"end":7571.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7571.04,"end":7572.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7572.04,"end":7573.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7573.04,"end":7574.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7574.04,"end":7575.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7575.04,"end":7576.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7576.04,"end":7577.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7577.04,"end":7578.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7578.04,"end":7579.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7579.04,"end":7580.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7580.04,"end":7581.04,"text":"我幾月幾日知道的"},{"start":7557.89,"end":7560.89,"text":"我的印象是在7月"},{"start":7560.89,"end":7562.89,"text":"應該是7月10幾號"},{"start":7562.89,"end":7563.89,"text":"將近15號以後"},{"start":7563.89,"end":7565.89,"text":"約月這個時間"},{"start":7565.89,"end":7566.89,"text":"是因為我們的同仁們"},{"start":7566.89,"end":7569.89,"text":"再次去進入台糖"},{"start":7569.89,"end":7572.89,"text":"進入中聯去看他所有的油"},{"start":7572.89,"end":7573.89,"text":"去看所有油的時候"},{"start":7573.89,"end":7574.89,"text":"我們調查到"},{"start":7574.89,"end":7575.89,"text":"發現了這個批號"},{"start":7575.89,"end":7577.89,"text":"7月初其實就已經"},{"start":7577.89,"end":7578.89,"text":"下架了之後"},{"start":7578.89,"end":7580.89,"text":"我們去做調查"},{"start":7580.89,"end":7581.89,"text":"所以"},{"start":7581.89,"end":7582.89,"text":"大家調查之前"},{"start":7582.89,"end":7583.89,"text":"我們也做了調查"},{"start":7583.89,"end":7584.89,"text":"所以你們7月10幾號"},{"start":7584.89,"end":7585.89,"text":"就已經知道台糖"},{"start":7585.89,"end":7586.89,"text":"有這一批"},{"start":7586.89,"end":7588.89,"text":"超標7倍的油"},{"start":7588.89,"end":7590.89,"text":"這個就這樣子說"},{"start":7590.89,"end":7591.89,"text":"這個油剛才提到"},{"start":7591.89,"end":7592.89,"text":"我剛才後面我認識的"},{"start":7592.89,"end":7594.89,"text":"很像有那個出膠原油"},{"start":7594.89,"end":7595.89,"text":"那兩個是長得不太一樣"},{"start":7595.89,"end":7596.89,"text":"沒關係啦"},{"start":7596.89,"end":7597.89,"text":"所以我的意思是說"},{"start":7597.89,"end":7600.89,"text":"7月中你就知道有這個油"},{"start":7600.89,"end":7602.89,"text":"你8月1號還要叫大家"},{"start":7602.89,"end":7603.89,"text":"去問高雄市政府"},{"start":7603.89,"end":7605.89,"text":"是什麼意思"},{"start":7606.3,"end":7607.3,"text":"我說的意思是說"},{"start":7607.3,"end":7609.3,"text":"因為這個油"},{"start":7609.3,"end":7611.3,"text":"並不是我們在管制的油"},{"start":7611.3,"end":7612.3,"text":"所以我不曉得"},{"start":7612.3,"end":7614.3,"text":"這個油後來它的去向在"},{"start":7614.3,"end":7615.3,"text":"我們後來確定"},{"start":7615.3,"end":7617.3,"text":"它是在原來的油槽裡面"},{"start":7617.3,"end":7618.3,"text":"還有1000多噸"},{"start":7618.3,"end":7620.3,"text":"都在裡面沒有移動"},{"start":7620.3,"end":7622.3,"text":"這是我們後面才了解才知道"},{"start":7622.3,"end":7623.3,"text":"我們了解的是"},{"start":7623.3,"end":7626.3,"text":"油是成為成品"},{"start":7626.3,"end":7627.3,"text":"油品裡面的30批的油"},{"start":7627.3,"end":7629.3,"text":"4到6月的我們很清楚"},{"start":7629.3,"end":7631.3,"text":"所以其實這個邏輯很清楚"},{"start":7631.3,"end":7633.3,"text":"其實這個邏輯很清楚"},{"start":7633.3,"end":7635.3,"text":"你們8月1號的時候認為"},{"start":7635.3,"end":7637.3,"text":"要問高雄市政府嗎"},{"start":7637.3,"end":7639.3,"text":"表示您認為高雄市政府"},{"start":7639.3,"end":7641.3,"text":"應該是這個您後來"},{"start":7641.3,"end":7644.3,"text":"不知道去向的油的主管機關"},{"start":7644.3,"end":7645.3,"text":"不然您不會第一時間"},{"start":7645.3,"end":7647.3,"text":"食藥署的回覆給媒體"},{"start":7647.3,"end":7650.3,"text":"是請媒體去問高雄市政府"},{"start":7650.3,"end":7651.3,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":7651.3,"end":7653.3,"text":"這個不能就這樣子說"},{"start":7653.3,"end":7654.3,"text":"因為這件事情"},{"start":7654.3,"end":7656.3,"text":"台糖也並沒有跟我們講"},{"start":7656.3,"end":7657.3,"text":"我們也不清楚"},{"start":7657.3,"end":7659.3,"text":"這個油到底在哪裡"},{"start":7659.3,"end":7661.3,"text":"所以它也不屬於這個範圍"},{"start":7661.3,"end":7662.3,"text":"我們的管理的範圍內"},{"start":7662.3,"end":7664.3,"text":"所以跟委員們特別很清楚"},{"start":7664.3,"end":7666.3,"text":"剛許甫主任有提到說"},{"start":7666.3,"end":7668.3,"text":"這場會議所有的中聯關係人"},{"start":7668.3,"end":7669.3,"text":"全部在場"},{"start":7669.3,"end":7671.3,"text":"好 專家說真的討論"},{"start":7671.3,"end":7672.3,"text":"但是討論出來"},{"start":7672.3,"end":7673.3,"text":"他說是一個建議"},{"start":7673.3,"end":7675.3,"text":"並不是決策"},{"start":7675.3,"end":7677.3,"text":"剛許甫主任講得非常清楚"},{"start":7677.3,"end":7680.3,"text":"最後做出20%以上"},{"start":7680.3,"end":7683.3,"text":"要下架的決策是誰做的"},{"start":7684.8,"end":7685.8,"text":"江署長"},{"start":7686.1,"end":7687.1,"text":"誰做的"},{"start":7687.1,"end":7688.1,"text":"因為您是主持這個會議的人"},{"start":7688.1,"end":7691.1,"text":"我想專家會議裡面我們邀請來"},{"start":7692.03,"end":7695.03,"text":"根據我們知道的整個的各國的"},{"start":7695.03,"end":7698.03,"text":"其實跟我們一樣嚴格的韓國跟歐盟"},{"start":7698.03,"end":7700.03,"text":"面對假如油品在這一類"},{"start":7700.03,"end":7701.03,"text":"只是問你誰決策的"},{"start":7701.03,"end":7702.03,"text":"是同樣的做法"},{"start":7702.03,"end":7704.03,"text":"對 都是在第一層下架"},{"start":7704.03,"end":7705.03,"text":"所以我們在第二層的是"},{"start":7705.03,"end":7706.03,"text":"特殊的情形下"},{"start":7706.03,"end":7708.03,"text":"是誰決策"},{"start":7708.03,"end":7709.03,"text":"這些都已經"},{"start":7709.03,"end":7710.03,"text":"整個專家選擇"},{"start":7710.03,"end":7711.03,"text":"大家很熟了"},{"start":7711.03,"end":7712.03,"text":"誰決策"},{"start":7712.03,"end":7714.03,"text":"整個專家給予建議完之後"},{"start":7714.03,"end":7716.03,"text":"我做會議的結論的時候"},{"start":7716.03,"end":7717.03,"text":"我有做猜測"},{"start":7717.03,"end":7719.03,"text":"是說原來專家整體的會議"},{"start":7719.03,"end":7720.03,"text":"是這樣子的結論"},{"start":7720.03,"end":7722.03,"text":"所以結論是"},{"start":7722.03,"end":7725.03,"text":"參考專家選擇意見是您決策的"},{"start":7725.03,"end":7728.03,"text":"專家選擇做出的這個會議的結論是這個"},{"start":7728.03,"end":7730.03,"text":"所以進一步這個會議結論"},{"start":7730.03,"end":7732.03,"text":"是達到這樣子的共識"},{"start":7732.03,"end":7733.03,"text":"好 了解 謝謝"},{"start":7733.03,"end":7735.03,"text":"那就請許主任先回座"},{"start":7735.03,"end":7736.03,"text":"許主任回座"},{"start":7736.03,"end":7737.03,"text":"行政長"},{"start":7738.59,"end":7739.59,"text":"上禮拜我在這邊"},{"start":7739.59,"end":7741.59,"text":"說我想要灰基錄"},{"start":7741.59,"end":7743.59,"text":"也想要中聯在裡面"},{"start":7743.59,"end":7744.59,"text":"練習的時候"},{"start":7744.59,"end":7746.59,"text":"跟你們報告了什麼"},{"start":7746.59,"end":7749.59,"text":"中聯可以知道這些學者名單"},{"start":7749.59,"end":7751.59,"text":"可是你這個報告"},{"start":7751.59,"end":7753.59,"text":"我7月30所資"},{"start":7753.59,"end":7754.59,"text":"當場你跟我說"},{"start":7754.59,"end":7755.59,"text":"會後馬上會給我"},{"start":7755.59,"end":7757.59,"text":"我7月30跟您要"},{"start":7757.59,"end":7760.59,"text":"中聯到底在你們的20%會議裡面"},{"start":7760.59,"end":7762.59,"text":"呈現了哪些資料"},{"start":7762.59,"end":7764.59,"text":"因為它也有可能影響到"},{"start":7764.59,"end":7765.59,"text":"你後續專家學者的建議"},{"start":7765.59,"end":7766.59,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":7766.59,"end":7767.59,"text":"人民也想知道"},{"start":7767.59,"end":7769.59,"text":"我們國會議員也想知道"},{"start":7769.59,"end":7770.59,"text":"你為什麼到現在還不能給我"},{"start":7770.59,"end":7771.59,"text":"你什麼時候要給我"},{"start":7773.16,"end":7774.16,"text":"各位說明"},{"start":7774.16,"end":7776.16,"text":"我那天就已經提到"},{"start":7776.16,"end":7779.16,"text":"這個全部的資料都送給檢調"},{"start":7779.16,"end":7780.16,"text":"因為這包含了"},{"start":7781.08,"end":7784.08,"text":"當時候發生這個會議的時候"},{"start":7784.08,"end":7786.08,"text":"並沒有檢調"},{"start":7786.08,"end":7789.08,"text":"還沒有把這個相關的人等"},{"start":7789.08,"end":7791.08,"text":"列為他的嫌疑人"},{"start":7791.08,"end":7793.08,"text":"所以當時候是這樣"},{"start":7793.08,"end":7795.08,"text":"那後面既然已經列入了"},{"start":7795.08,"end":7796.08,"text":"是嫌疑人"},{"start":7796.08,"end":7798.08,"text":"那當然我們就把這所有的資料"},{"start":7798.08,"end":7800.08,"text":"都移送給檢調"},{"start":7800.08,"end":7801.08,"text":"一併查明"},{"start":7801.08,"end":7803.08,"text":"所以當時候我的處理是這樣"},{"start":7803.08,"end":7805.08,"text":"你上週跟王運民委員說"},{"start":7805.08,"end":7806.08,"text":"你送檢調"},{"start":7806.08,"end":7808.08,"text":"幾月幾號送檢調"},{"start":7808.08,"end":7810.08,"text":"非常早就送檢調"},{"start":7810.08,"end":7813.08,"text":"送檢調跟給我們看"},{"start":7813.08,"end":7815.08,"text":"給全國人民看不衝突"},{"start":7815.08,"end":7818.08,"text":"跟你們在你們會議報告了什麼"},{"start":7818.08,"end":7819.08,"text":"我們不能知道"},{"start":7820.53,"end":7821.53,"text":"不衝突啊"},{"start":7821.53,"end":7823.53,"text":"我們現在在調查的是行政責任"},{"start":7824.68,"end":7827.68,"text":"檢調在調查的是行事責任"},{"start":7827.68,"end":7828.68,"text":"好"},{"start":7828.68,"end":7829.68,"text":"跟委員說你沒有問題"},{"start":7829.68,"end":7830.68,"text":"你可以給我們嗎"},{"start":7830.68,"end":7831.68,"text":"我們今天就會報復"},{"start":7831.68,"end":7834.68,"text":"今天把周聯在你們的會議上的"},{"start":7835.5,"end":7837.5,"text":"資料給全部的委員"},{"start":7837.5,"end":7839.5,"text":"還有會議紀錄給全部的委員"},{"start":7839.73,"end":7841.73,"text":"我看你們的吹哨者也"},{"start":7841.73,"end":7842.73,"text":"報愈來愈多了嗎"},{"start":7842.73,"end":7843.73,"text":"可以"},{"start":7843.73,"end":7844.73,"text":"好 那就這樣子"},{"start":7844.73,"end":7846.73,"text":"因為我們之前都已經陸續提供"},{"start":7846.73,"end":7848.73,"text":"給一些所知的委員了"},{"start":7848.73,"end":7850.73,"text":"所以我們這一次就乾脆把它發布"},{"start":7850.73,"end":7851.73,"text":"以正視聽"},{"start":7851.73,"end":7854.73,"text":"我們也要中聯報告的那份資料"},{"start":7854.73,"end":7855.73,"text":"在這邊一定要講清楚"},{"start":7855.73,"end":7857.73,"text":"因為我已經要了一個禮拜了"},{"start":7857.73,"end":7858.73,"text":"中聯報告的"},{"start":7858.73,"end":7860.73,"text":"就是在會上提供的"},{"start":7860.73,"end":7862.73,"text":"就是紀略商號在台東市"},{"start":7862.73,"end":7864.73,"text":"專家學者"},{"start":7864.73,"end":7866.73,"text":"還有你們的"},{"start":7866.73,"end":7867.73,"text":"那你就給我們嘛"},{"start":7867.73,"end":7869.73,"text":"你壓了一個禮拜幹嘛"},{"start":7869.73,"end":7871.73,"text":"他那一天就已經都有檔案了"},{"start":7871.73,"end":7872.73,"text":"就是在7月3號"},{"start":7872.73,"end":7874.73,"text":"在台中市所提供的那一份資料"},{"start":7874.73,"end":7876.73,"text":"這邊因為台中"},{"start":7876.73,"end":7878.73,"text":"他裁罰了中聯跟福茂"},{"start":7878.73,"end":7880.73,"text":"各罰300萬"},{"start":7880.73,"end":7882.73,"text":"因為沒有通報"},{"start":7882.73,"end":7884.73,"text":"超標7倍的這些致哀郵"},{"start":7884.73,"end":7887.73,"text":"那您認同台中市政府"},{"start":7887.73,"end":7890.73,"text":"用食安法第七條第五項"},{"start":7890.73,"end":7893.73,"text":"去做這兩家廠商的裁罰嗎"},{"start":7893.73,"end":7894.73,"text":"中聯"},{"start":7895.42,"end":7896.42,"text":"福茂"},{"start":7896.42,"end":7897.42,"text":"福茂拿的是"},{"start":7898.9,"end":7899.9,"text":"產品"},{"start":7900.72,"end":7903.72,"text":"中聯出來的那個已經是食用油脂了"},{"start":7903.72,"end":7905.72,"text":"他不是脫膠原油"},{"start":7905.72,"end":7908.72,"text":"他交給福茂的是食用油脂"},{"start":7908.72,"end":7910.72,"text":"食用油脂是產品"},{"start":7910.72,"end":7914.72,"text":"所以是符合這個我們的食安法第七條"},{"start":7914.72,"end":7915.72,"text":"應該通報的對象"},{"start":7915.72,"end":7918.72,"text":"所以處分福茂是這個道理"},{"start":7918.72,"end":7919.72,"text":"中聯也是一樣"},{"start":7919.72,"end":7923.72,"text":"他的成品被南僑驗出超標"},{"start":7923.72,"end":7926.72,"text":"而且通報給福壽"},{"start":7926.72,"end":7927.72,"text":"福壽在告辭週年"},{"start":7927.72,"end":7929.72,"text":"我在講的是8月3號晚上"},{"start":7929.72,"end":7930.72,"text":"哪一個"},{"start":7930.72,"end":7932.72,"text":"8月3號晚上"},{"start":7932.72,"end":7935.72,"text":"我在講的是8月3號晚上"},{"start":7935.72,"end":7937.72,"text":"一案歸一案"},{"start":7937.72,"end":7939.72,"text":"這個是台糖的新案"},{"start":7941.66,"end":7944.66,"text":"這是台中市政府的處分"},{"start":7944.66,"end":7946.66,"text":"這個是他們的處分"},{"start":7946.66,"end":7948.66,"text":"那看他們自己的理由是什麼"},{"start":7949.39,"end":7951.39,"text":"他要查清楚之後才去開罰"},{"start":7952.44,"end":7955.44,"text":"你剛不是把中聯講的很糟糕嗎"},{"start":7955.44,"end":7957.44,"text":"你現在不認同他們的財產"},{"start":7957.44,"end":7958.44,"text":"中聯很糟糕啊"},{"start":7958.44,"end":7959.44,"text":"福茂也很糟糕啊"},{"start":7959.99,"end":7960.99,"text":"你不能"},{"start":7961.42,"end":7963.42,"text":"我沒有說我不認同啊"},{"start":7963.42,"end":7964.42,"text":"我需要去理解"},{"start":7964.42,"end":7967.42,"text":"台中市政府的開罰是什麼"},{"start":7967.42,"end":7969.42,"text":"他是正在哪一家去開罰"},{"start":7969.42,"end":7970.42,"text":"我寫在旁邊給你了"},{"start":7970.42,"end":7972.42,"text":"5月未通報"},{"start":7972.42,"end":7974.42,"text":"台糖採購原料異常"},{"start":7974.42,"end":7977.42,"text":"台中市府再各罰300萬"},{"start":7978.67,"end":7980.67,"text":"採購原料異常"},{"start":7980.67,"end":7982.67,"text":"那他是指他採購黃豆異常"},{"start":7982.67,"end":7983.67,"text":"還是採購什麼異常"},{"start":7984.57,"end":7986.57,"text":"中聯是採購的原料"},{"start":7986.57,"end":7988.57,"text":"中聯的原料是黃豆啊"},{"start":7991.34,"end":7993.34,"text":"那他是罰他黃豆的採購異常"},{"start":7993.34,"end":7994.34,"text":"不是"},{"start":7994.34,"end":7995.34,"text":"還是罰他什麼"},{"start":7995.34,"end":7998.34,"text":"他們是在罰他台糖5月的時候"},{"start":7998.34,"end":7999.34,"text":"往回報"},{"start":7999.34,"end":8002.34,"text":"往回報你所謂的這一批"},{"start":8002.34,"end":8005.34,"text":"你現在口中不肯承認是原料的東西"},{"start":8005.75,"end":8006.75,"text":"回報"},{"start":8006.75,"end":8007.75,"text":"服報"},{"start":8007.75,"end":8008.75,"text":"還有中聯"},{"start":8008.75,"end":8010.75,"text":"但是他們兩個沒有通報"},{"start":8011.66,"end":8014.66,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面講的很清楚"},{"start":8014.66,"end":8015.66,"text":"如果就這個"},{"start":8015.66,"end":8017.66,"text":"食用油脂的製造"},{"start":8017.66,"end":8018.66,"text":"黃豆式原料"},{"start":8018.66,"end":8020.66,"text":"脫膠原油"},{"start":8020.66,"end":8021.66,"text":"你只要告訴我"},{"start":8021.66,"end":8022.66,"text":"我就問你"},{"start":8022.66,"end":8023.66,"text":"我就問你"},{"start":8023.66,"end":8025.66,"text":"因為你是主管機關"},{"start":8025.66,"end":8028.66,"text":"最中央最高的主管機關"},{"start":8028.66,"end":8033.66,"text":"現在中聯服貿知道台糖拿到了一批"},{"start":8033.66,"end":8035.66,"text":"現在你口中不承認是原料的東西"},{"start":8035.66,"end":8037.66,"text":"沒有告訴"},{"start":8037.66,"end":8038.66,"text":"中央主管機關"},{"start":8038.66,"end":8040.66,"text":"沒有告訴地方政府"},{"start":8040.66,"end":8041.66,"text":"被罰了"},{"start":8041.66,"end":8043.66,"text":"你認不認同"},{"start":8047.08,"end":8049.08,"text":"所有的主管機關"},{"start":8049.08,"end":8051.08,"text":"不論是中央跟地方"},{"start":8051.08,"end":8053.08,"text":"都要依法行政"},{"start":8053.08,"end":8055.08,"text":"所有的處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我在問葉片"},{"start":8201.08,"end":8202.08,"text":"我們沒有啊"},{"start":8202.08,"end":8203.08,"text":"主席"},{"start":8203.14,"end":8204.14,"text":"主席他沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":8204.14,"end":8206.14,"text":"而且他也不想看到油在桌上"},{"start":8206.14,"end":8208.14,"text":"可以把油拿下去了"},{"start":8209.72,"end":8212.72,"text":"油等你等一下自己專題報告再拿上來就好了"},{"start":8214.76,"end":8216.76,"text":"我只是在問你們兩個"},{"start":8216.76,"end":8218.76,"text":"經濟部跟台湯的社會溝通"},{"start":8218.76,"end":8220.76,"text":"到底做到哪裡去了"},{"start":8222,"end":8224,"text":"葉片 眼睛看的"},{"start":8226.37,"end":8227.37,"text":"本篇畢"},{"start":8227.69,"end":8228.69,"text":"機器用出來的"},{"start":8228.69,"end":8230.69,"text":"超標七倍就是超標七倍"},{"start":8232.18,"end":8234.18,"text":"葉片跟油的關係在哪裡"},{"start":8234.18,"end":8235.18,"text":"你現在第一個"},{"start":8235.18,"end":8237.18,"text":"你告訴我你的社會溝通是什麼意思"},{"start":8237.18,"end":8238.18,"text":"看不懂"},{"start":8238.71,"end":8239.71,"text":"第二個"},{"start":8239.71,"end":8240.71,"text":"我這個餐廳"},{"start":8240.71,"end":8242.71,"text":"我會知道是哪一攤"},{"start":8242.71,"end":8246.71,"text":"你現在就明確知道是哪一家的油"},{"start":8246.71,"end":8248.71,"text":"出來是14ppb"},{"start":8248.71,"end":8250.71,"text":"這兩個可以類比嗎"},{"start":8250.98,"end":8251.98,"text":"你講啊"},{"start":8252.19,"end":8254.19,"text":"好 次長可以回答"},{"start":8254.07,"end":8255.07,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":8255.07,"end":8257.07,"text":"剛剛部長已經說了"},{"start":8257.07,"end":8258.07,"text":"台湯的這個作為"},{"start":8258.07,"end":8260.07,"text":"依照食安法的這個規定來辦理"},{"start":8260.07,"end":8262.07,"text":"那台湯對於原料的採購"},{"start":8262.07,"end":8265.07,"text":"也依照他採購的一個契約"},{"start":8265.07,"end":8266.07,"text":"飲收的標準"},{"start":8266.07,"end":8268.07,"text":"來進行處理相關的處理"},{"start":8268.07,"end":8269.07,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":8269.07,"end":8270.07,"text":"那第二點"},{"start":8270.07,"end":8271.07,"text":"的一個部分"},{"start":8271.07,"end":8274.07,"text":"經濟部始終非常重視"},{"start":8274.07,"end":8276.07,"text":"我們不管是我們的消費者"},{"start":8276.07,"end":8278.07,"text":"或是我們的通路廠商"},{"start":8278.07,"end":8279.07,"text":"還有各項的一個權利"},{"start":8279.07,"end":8282.07,"text":"所以台湯公司在這個一個角色上面"},{"start":8282.07,"end":8284.07,"text":"他必須要依法依規來辦理"},{"start":8286.09,"end":8287.09,"text":"沒有聽到葉片啊"},{"start":8287.09,"end":8288.09,"text":"葉片跟油一樣嗎"},{"start":8289.39,"end":8290.39,"text":"不是"},{"start":8290.39,"end":8291.39,"text":"台湯在法規裡面"},{"start":8291.39,"end":8293.39,"text":"他扮演一個角色啊"},{"start":8293.39,"end":8296.39,"text":"他畢竟他是一個採"},{"start":8296.39,"end":8298.39,"text":"透過契約"},{"start":8298.39,"end":8300.39,"text":"然後去採購這個原料"},{"start":8300.39,"end":8301.39,"text":"而且台中"},{"start":8302.4,"end":8303.4,"text":"我先唸啊"},{"start":8303.4,"end":8305.4,"text":"來來來 台湯"},{"start":8305.4,"end":8307.4,"text":"台湯的官網"},{"start":8307.4,"end":8309.4,"text":"大家現在可以馬上上網看"},{"start":8309.4,"end":8311.4,"text":"台湯的使命 如何"},{"start":8311.4,"end":8313.4,"text":"台湯公司在台灣"},{"start":8313.4,"end":8315.4,"text":"是一家老字號的國營企業"},{"start":8316.47,"end":8318.47,"text":"最家喻戶曉的品牌"},{"start":8318.47,"end":8321.47,"text":"所以他們肩負了配合國家政策"},{"start":8321.47,"end":8324.47,"text":"照顧民生需求 基本企業責任"},{"start":8324.47,"end":8326.47,"text":"還要跟社會產生連結"},{"start":8326.47,"end":8328.47,"text":"我現在都不知道你們連結到哪裡去了"},{"start":8328.47,"end":8331.47,"text":"好 配合國家政策啊"},{"start":8331.47,"end":8335.47,"text":"不就包括每年跟我們要這麼多預算"},{"start":8335.47,"end":8336.47,"text":"過去十年"},{"start":8336.47,"end":8340.47,"text":"七百多億的食安五環 食品雲"},{"start":8340.47,"end":8343.47,"text":"還有呢 邊境協防"},{"start":8343.47,"end":8346.47,"text":"每一種毒的東西 連邊境都進不來"},{"start":8346.47,"end":8348.47,"text":"食藥署這個要幫我們把關"},{"start":8348.47,"end":8351.47,"text":"從原料 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就要主動的通報"},{"start":8393.62,"end":8395.62,"text":"那個是非法添加啦"},{"start":8395.62,"end":8396.62,"text":"這個不一樣"},{"start":8396.62,"end":8399.62,"text":"這個不是中間的產品"},{"start":8399.62,"end":8401.62,"text":"這個是違法添加"},{"start":8401.62,"end":8406.62,"text":"部長你知道你現在在大開一個邪惡之門"},{"start":8406.62,"end":8408.62,"text":"你剛剛舉了好多歪理"},{"start":8408.62,"end":8410.62,"text":"你今天在這邊講的話"},{"start":8410.62,"end":8413.62,"text":"從現在開始 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衛生 安全 之餘"},{"start":8529.94,"end":8531.94,"text":"你是違法添加"},{"start":8531.94,"end":8533.94,"text":"就已經違法添加"},{"start":8533.94,"end":8537.94,"text":"違法添加就違反了第15條的規定"},{"start":8537.94,"end":8540.94,"text":"你上面幫人家做教育訓練是"},{"start":8540.94,"end":8542.94,"text":"危害 衛生 安全 之餘"},{"start":8542.94,"end":8545.94,"text":"現在又要硬撈成違法添加"},{"start":8547.61,"end":8549.61,"text":"你這個是斷章取義"},{"start":8549.61,"end":8551.61,"text":"我跟你講我沒有斷章取義"},{"start":8551.61,"end":8553.61,"text":"我們看監察院的調查報告"},{"start":8553.61,"end":8556.61,"text":"你會覺得濃濃的即視感"},{"start":8556.61,"end":8558.61,"text":"113年監察院的調查報告"},{"start":8558.61,"end":8560.61,"text":"都寫得很清楚了"},{"start":8560.61,"end":8562.61,"text":"那個時候發生蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":8562.61,"end":8564.61,"text":"他們說食品業者訂定的"},{"start":8564.61,"end":8565.61,"text":"食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":8565.61,"end":8568.61,"text":"若有承報主管機關之規定"},{"start":8568.61,"end":8570.61,"text":"故針對原料辦成品"},{"start":8570.61,"end":8571.61,"text":"成品檢驗項目"},{"start":8571.61,"end":8573.61,"text":"任由業者自行評估"},{"start":8573.61,"end":8574.61,"text":"據本案未將蘇丹紅"},{"start":8574.61,"end":8576.61,"text":"納為風險檢驗項目"},{"start":8576.61,"end":8579.61,"text":"難以真實反應潛藏食安風險"},{"start":8579.61,"end":8581.61,"text":"主管機關無從事先察覺"},{"start":8581.61,"end":8583.61,"text":"又本案存在居多"},{"start":8583.61,"end":8585.61,"text":"以虛偽樣本盛檢"},{"start":8585.61,"end":8587.61,"text":"檢驗結果不合格"},{"start":8587.61,"end":8590.61,"text":"遭下游公司拓貨後"},{"start":8590.61,"end":8593.61,"text":"人持續出貨給不知情的公司"},{"start":8593.61,"end":8595.61,"text":"甚至變造檢驗報告"},{"start":8595.61,"end":8597.61,"text":"以取信下游廠商"},{"start":8597.61,"end":8598.61,"text":"盛檢不合格後"},{"start":8598.61,"end":8601.61,"text":"業者未主動通報主管機關等違規"},{"start":8601.61,"end":8604.61,"text":"113年監察院告訴你的事情"},{"start":8604.61,"end":8606.61,"text":"現在就活生生的"},{"start":8606.61,"end":8608.61,"text":"又出現在我們面前了"},{"start":8610.6,"end":8613.6,"text":"你看監察院的右邊寫什麼"},{"start":8613.6,"end":8616.6,"text":"依法不得添加的東西"},{"start":8616.6,"end":8618.6,"text":"你聽我說清楚了"},{"start":8618.6,"end":8620.6,"text":"不得添加的東西"},{"start":8620.6,"end":8623.6,"text":"不論在原料或者是產品"},{"start":8623.6,"end":8625.6,"text":"都是不得添加"},{"start":8625.6,"end":8627.6,"text":"如果是安全衛生標準的"},{"start":8627.6,"end":8631.6,"text":"他就會訂出他的適用產品"},{"start":8631.6,"end":8635.6,"text":"是什麼產品的什麼物質的標準"},{"start":8635.6,"end":8636.6,"text":"這是兩回事"},{"start":8636.6,"end":8638.6,"text":"不能匯為一談"},{"start":8638.6,"end":8641.6,"text":"部長請你看監察院調查報告"},{"start":8641.6,"end":8645.6,"text":"他最後是用食安法第七條第五項"},{"start":8645.6,"end":8646.6,"text":"所以他說"},{"start":8646.6,"end":8649.6,"text":"業者知產品原材料"},{"start":8649.6,"end":8652.6,"text":"半成品成品受驗後檢驗結果不合格"},{"start":8652.6,"end":8655.6,"text":"需因食安法第七條第五項規定"},{"start":8655.6,"end":8659.6,"text":"主動提示到並通報地方主管機關"},{"start":8659.6,"end":8661.6,"text":"現在我們要相信監察院"},{"start":8661.6,"end":8663.6,"text":"還是相信你的法條解釋"},{"start":8665.07,"end":8667.07,"text":"監察院在這邊寫了"},{"start":8667.67,"end":8669.67,"text":"第七條第五項"},{"start":8669.67,"end":8671.67,"text":"不得添加的東西"},{"start":8671.67,"end":8673.67,"text":"不論是在原料還是在產品"},{"start":8673.67,"end":8675.67,"text":"都是不得添加"},{"start":8675.67,"end":8678.67,"text":"但是如果是安全衛生標準"},{"start":8678.67,"end":8680.67,"text":"按照第十條訂出的"},{"start":8680.67,"end":8682.67,"text":"就要看他的適用品項"},{"start":8682.67,"end":8684.67,"text":"跟他的標準是什麼"},{"start":8684.67,"end":8687.67,"text":"這是兩回事不能匯為一談"},{"start":8688.02,"end":8690.02,"text":"下一個我們請台湯回答"},{"start":8691.96,"end":8693.96,"text":"如果你們平常有一些問題"},{"start":8693.96,"end":8695.96,"text":"你們是通報給誰"},{"start":8695.96,"end":8698.96,"text":"如果你們的SOP實用有出問題"},{"start":8698.96,"end":8700.96,"text":"你們通報哪一個單位"},{"start":8700.96,"end":8702.96,"text":"是我們一定會通報我們的那個"},{"start":8703.6,"end":8705.6,"text":"使用有的主管機關"},{"start":8706.25,"end":8707.25,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8707.82,"end":8708.82,"text":"誰"},{"start":8708.82,"end":8709.82,"text":"高雄市政府"},{"start":8709.82,"end":8710.82,"text":"高雄市政府OK"},{"start":8710.82,"end":8713.82,"text":"因為他們現在兩邊一直在踢皮球"},{"start":8713.82,"end":8716.82,"text":"高雄市政府說要收集很多資料給台南"},{"start":8716.82,"end":8718.82,"text":"台南又說沒有是歸高雄管"},{"start":8718.82,"end":8720.82,"text":"好我們現在聽到你說"},{"start":8720.82,"end":8722.82,"text":"是高雄市政府"},{"start":8722.82,"end":8724.82,"text":"好那我們知道了"},{"start":8724.82,"end":8727.82,"text":"不過剛剛有念出你們的宗旨嘛"},{"start":8727.82,"end":8728.82,"text":"成立宗旨"},{"start":8728.82,"end":8730.82,"text":"最終人民還是希望"},{"start":8730.82,"end":8733.82,"text":"國營企業負起國營企業該有的責任"},{"start":8733.82,"end":8736.82,"text":"你們只要當時有通報把關"},{"start":8736.82,"end":8739.82,"text":"後面這幾萬噸吃下去的毒油"},{"start":8739.82,"end":8741.82,"text":"就不會在我們國人的肚子裡了"},{"start":8741.82,"end":8743.82,"text":"現在請回座"},{"start":8743.82,"end":8744.82,"text":"跟委員報告喔"},{"start":8746.06,"end":8748.06,"text":"就台南公司的認知啦"},{"start":8748.94,"end":8751.94,"text":"出油就是脫膠的這個出油"},{"start":8751.94,"end":8753.94,"text":"它是不能吃的"},{"start":8753.94,"end":8755.94,"text":"它不是可以吃的"},{"start":8755.94,"end":8756.94,"text":"所以它不是食品"},{"start":8758.04,"end":8760.04,"text":"它不是食品"},{"start":8760.04,"end":8762.04,"text":"所以我們的認知是它根本不是"},{"start":8762.04,"end":8764.04,"text":"我跟你說你只要通報"},{"start":8764.04,"end":8767.04,"text":"他們當時告訴去查中聯"},{"start":8767.04,"end":8770.04,"text":"他們會查出更多更多更多"},{"start":8770.04,"end":8773.04,"text":"最後會讓人家吃下去的東西"},{"start":8773.04,"end":8775.04,"text":"我們可以請四位先回座"},{"start":8775.04,"e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謝謝"},{"start":8781,"end":8783,"text":"老師 上禮拜你就說"},{"start":8783,"end":8784,"text":"你也不是食安專家"},{"start":8784,"end":8785,"text":"我也不是食安專家"},{"start":8785,"end":8788,"text":"所以我們都不應該表達自己的意見"},{"start":8788,"end":8790,"text":"今天我們有食安專家了 江志剛"},{"start":8790,"end":8793,"text":"然後這邊還有法律專家"},{"start":8793,"end":8795,"text":"高檢署主任陳鴻達"},{"start":8795,"end":8798,"text":"這邊還有一位公衛專家 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你覺得你懂法律"},{"start":8828.93,"end":8830.93,"text":"比高檢署主任還懂"},{"start":8831.8,"end":8832.8,"text":"那詹長權呢"},{"start":8834.08,"end":8836.08,"text":"詹長權我不知道他說的是什麼"},{"start":8837.1,"end":8840.1,"text":"他說的東西我已經寫在上面了"},{"start":8840.1,"end":8843.1,"text":"本篇筆的標準是定在"},{"start":8843.91,"end":8846.91,"text":"產品也就是食用油脂"},{"start":8846.91,"end":8849.91,"text":"本篇筆的標準不是定在脫膠原油"},{"start":8849.91,"end":8851.91,"text":"我還是要再強調"},{"start":8851.91,"end":8856.91,"text":"脫膠原油後面會經過脫酸 脫色 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謝謝主席"},{"start":8902.77,"end":8904.77,"text":"我們有請衛福部部長"},{"start":8904.77,"end":8905.77,"text":"食藥署署長"},{"start":8905.77,"end":8907.77,"text":"經濟部常務次長"},{"start":8907.77,"end":8909.77,"text":"台唐的副總"},{"start":8909.77,"end":8910.77,"text":"一起上台"},{"start":8910.77,"end":8913.77,"text":"還有行政院食安辦的許副主任"},{"start":8917.25,"end":8920.25,"text":"來 我先問台唐的副總"},{"start":8920.25,"end":8921.25,"text":"你們剛拿了兩罐"},{"start":8921.25,"end":8923.25,"text":"繼續拿上來沒有關係"},{"start":8923.67,"end":8924.67,"text":"來"},{"start":8924.88,"end":8925.88,"text":"你告訴我本席"},{"start":8925.88,"end":8928.88,"text":"脫膠原油是你台唐的"},{"start":8928.88,"end":8930.88,"text":"製油的原料嗎"},{"start":8930.88,"end":8931.88,"text":"是或不是"},{"start":8932.74,"end":8933.74,"text":"欸"},{"start":8933.77,"end":8935.77,"text":"我們台唐就是做沙拉油"},{"start":8935.77,"end":8937.77,"text":"他是從黃豆開始"},{"start":8937.77,"end":8939.77,"text":"所以我們進口的都是美國黃豆"},{"start":8939.77,"end":8941.77,"text":"好 我直接問你"},{"start":8941.77,"end":8942.77,"text":"你的脫膠"},{"start":8942.77,"end":8945.77,"text":"你跟中聯買的脫膠原油"},{"start":8945.77,"end":8946.77,"text":"就是這一罐對不對"},{"start":8946.77,"end":8947.77,"text":"欸"},{"start":8947.77,"end":8948.77,"text":"這個"},{"start":8948.77,"end":8949.77,"text":"對 我們自己也有生產"},{"start":8949.77,"end":8952.77,"text":"這一罐是不是你食用油的原料"},{"start":8952.77,"end":8953.77,"text":"是或不是"},{"start":8954.36,"end":8955.36,"text":"它不能食用啊"},{"start":8955.36,"end":8958.36,"text":"它是不是製造成那一瓶"},{"start":8958.36,"end":8959.36,"text":"食用油的原料"},{"start":8959.36,"end":8960.36,"text":"它必須要經過精煉"},{"start":8960.36,"end":8961.36,"text":"我知道 它是不是原料啦"},{"start":8962.33,"end":8963.33,"text":"當然是原料啊"},{"start":8963.33,"end":8965.33,"text":"對啊 當然是原料啊"},{"start":8966.31,"end":8968.31,"text":"你跟中聯買了多少"},{"start":8968.31,"end":8970.31,"text":"它不是食品價"},{"start":8970.31,"end":8971.31,"text":"你本來要跟它購買那一批"},{"start":8971.31,"end":8972.31,"text":"是多少公噸"},{"start":8972.31,"end":8976.31,"text":"我們這內製的招標案是3000噸啦"},{"start":8976.31,"end":8977.31,"text":"3000噸嘛 對不對"},{"start":8977.31,"end":8980.31,"text":"那它5月11號"},{"start":8980.31,"end":8985.31,"text":"我們去豐朝送驗的那個潮"},{"start":8985.31,"end":8988.31,"text":"那個潮它是1100多噸"},{"start":8990.02,"end":8992.02,"text":"都出問題嘛 超標嘛 對不對"},{"start":8992.02,"end":8995.02,"text":"那個潮我們當初就是封存了"},{"start":8995.02,"end":8997.02,"text":"我們也沒有載到"},{"start":8997.02,"end":8999.02,"text":"以前有沒有發生過這樣的情況"},{"start":8999.02,"end":9001.02,"text":"以前你們驗的有沒有發生這樣的情況"},{"start":9001.02,"end":9003.02,"text":"也有超標的情況 退驗的情況"},{"start":9003.02,"end":9005.02,"text":"以前驗都沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":9005.02,"end":9007.02,"text":"都沒有超標嗎"},{"start":9007.02,"end":9009.02,"text":"都有符合我們的驗收標準啦"},{"start":9010,"end":9012,"text":"是多少 你們自己制定的驗收標準"},{"start":9012,"end":9015,"text":"是要那個本評比要幾PPB"},{"start":9015,"end":9018,"text":"本評比是2PPB"},{"start":9018,"end":9020,"text":"都有符合在2PPB以內嘛 對不對"},{"start":9020,"end":9021,"text":"對"},{"start":9021,"end":9022,"text":"那你為什麼要這樣子驗"},{"start":9022,"end":9024,"text":"你是依據食安法哪一條"},{"start":9024,"end":9026,"text":"沒有 這個是我們自己"},{"start":9026,"end":9030,"text":"自己內定的一個招標的規格啊"},{"start":9030,"end":9031,"text":"所以你也可以不用驗就對了"},{"start":9031,"end":9032,"text":"可以 可以"},{"start":9032.54,"end":9034.54,"text":"所以如果本評比超標"},{"start":9034.54,"end":9035.54,"text":"你們可以繼續製作就對了"},{"start":9035.54,"end":9036.54,"text":"不用退"},{"start":9036.54,"end":9037.54,"text":"我們會調整我們的製程"},{"start":9037.54,"end":9039.54,"text":"讓它那個本評比"},{"start":9039.54,"end":9041.54,"text":"那你這PPB為什麼要退"},{"start":9041.54,"end":9042.54,"text":"如果按照你的邏輯"},{"start":9042.54,"end":9044.54,"text":"這個是我們招標合約裡頭"},{"start":9044.54,"end":9046.54,"text":"我們就已經定了規格在那裡"},{"start":9046.54,"end":9047.54,"text":"一定要符合我們的規格啊"},{"start":9047.54,"end":9049.54,"text":"不符合規格我們就是要退"},{"start":9049.54,"end":9050.54,"text":"對啊 那為什麼要定這個標準啊"},{"start":9050.54,"end":9053.54,"text":"既然你後面的技術都可以脫色脫穿"},{"start":9053.54,"end":9055.54,"text":"剛剛那個 待會我要問部長"},{"start":9055.54,"end":9057.54,"text":"那個成本會不一樣啊"},{"start":9057.92,"end":9058.92,"text":"成本會不一樣"},{"start":9058.92,"end":9059.92,"text":"如果說它"},{"start":9059.92,"end":9061.92,"text":"所以不是因為食安法"},{"start":9061.92,"end":9062.92,"text":"是因為成本的關係"},{"start":9062.92,"end":9063.92,"text":"是 沒有錯"},{"start":9064.93,"end":9066.93,"text":"沒有錯喔 這是你的答案喔"},{"start":9066.93,"end":9067.93,"text":"你們針對原料的管理"},{"start":9067.93,"end":9071.93,"text":"是因為我不需要基本的嚴格把關"},{"start":9071.93,"end":9073.93,"text":"我是因為成本控制"},{"start":9073.93,"end":9076.93,"text":"所以我今天才去訂出2PPB的"},{"start":9076.93,"end":9078.93,"text":"這樣的本評比的標準"},{"start":9078.93,"end":9080.93,"text":"就算說它本評比偏高"},{"start":9080.93,"end":9082.93,"text":"經過我們的精鏈"},{"start":9082.93,"end":9084.93,"text":"製程上面的調整之後"},{"start":9085.77,"end":9087.77,"text":"所以你之前到底有沒有購買過"},{"start":9087.77,"end":9089.77,"text":"超過2PPB本評比的"},{"start":9089.77,"end":9090.77,"text":"是沒有啦"},{"start":9090.77,"end":9093.77,"text":"因為我們都訂那個2PPB嘛"},{"start":9093.77,"end":9095.77,"text":"這樣的話對我們來講是"},{"start":9095.77,"end":9096.77,"text":"整個製程會比較順暢"},{"start":9096.77,"end":9098.77,"text":"而且它成本是最低的"},{"start":9098.77,"end":9099.77,"text":"所以過去都沒有"},{"start":9099.77,"end":9100.77,"text":"沒有喔"},{"start":9100.77,"end":9101.77,"text":"然後你就訂了2PPB"},{"start":9101.77,"end":9102.77,"text":"是"},{"start":9102.77,"end":9103.77,"text":"就訂了國家的這個標準"},{"start":9105.19,"end":9106.19,"text":"啊超標你也可以用"},{"start":9107.32,"end":9109.32,"text":"完全不涉及食安"},{"start":9109.63,"end":9111.63,"text":"這個聽起來非常的可怕"},{"start":9111.63,"end":9112.63,"text":"大家各位聽懂了嗎"},{"start":9112.63,"end":9116.63,"text":"就是說台糖也可以不用是2PPB喔"},{"start":9116.63,"end":9118.63,"text":"它不用是這樣子喔"},{"start":9118.63,"end":9119.63,"text":"因為對他們來講"},{"start":9119.63,"end":9122.63,"text":"剛剛石部長告訴大家的也是喔"},{"start":9122.63,"end":9124.63,"text":"就是即使它是原料"},{"start":9124.63,"end":9126.63,"text":"它今天超標沒有關係"},{"start":9126.63,"end":9128.63,"text":"其實坦白講你也可以不用退運啦"},{"start":9128.63,"end":9129.63,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9129.63,"end":9130.63,"text":"按照你的邏輯可以不用退運啦"},{"start":9130.63,"end":9132.63,"text":"我繼續做啊"},{"start":9132.63,"end":9133.63,"text":"你不要違反食安法"},{"start":9133.63,"end":9136.63,"text":"我們招標的時候的規格"},{"start":9136.63,"end":9138.63,"text":"你們太荒謬了"},{"start":9138.63,"end":9140.63,"text":"都不按照食安法辦事的嗎"},{"start":9140.63,"end":9143.63,"text":"既然脫膠原有是你的原料"},{"start":9143.63,"end":9145.63,"text":"原料有疑慮的時候"},{"start":9147.63,"end":9148.63,"text":"原料有疑慮"},{"start":9148.63,"end":9150.63,"text":"你竟然還好意思說"},{"start":9150.63,"end":9151.63,"text":"我的技術夠"},{"start":9151.63,"end":9153.63,"text":"所以我可以繼續做"},{"start":9153.63,"end":9155.63,"text":"剛剛石重量部長是這樣子講"},{"start":9156.74,"end":9157.74,"text":"這樣子有道理嗎"},{"start":9160.24,"end":9162.24,"text":"食安法它規範的"},{"start":9162.24,"end":9163.24,"text":"所以你們是說"},{"start":9163.24,"end":9164.24,"text":"只要是出膠原有"},{"start":9164.24,"end":9166.24,"text":"根本就不用設標準"},{"start":9166.24,"end":9168.24,"text":"反正只要我可以不斷的精煉"},{"start":9168.24,"end":9170.24,"text":"到最終的產品"},{"start":9170.24,"end":9172.24,"text":"它只要符合2PPB就好了"},{"start":9172.24,"end":9175.24,"text":"那你的食安法我們都要定價的嗎"},{"start":9175.24,"end":9177.24,"text":"從原料就應該要開始檢驗"},{"start":9177.24,"end":9179.24,"text":"在你的邏輯裡面"},{"start":9179.24,"end":9180.24,"text":"原料不需要"},{"start":9180.24,"end":9182.24,"text":"只要我有本事把它精煉出"},{"start":9182.24,"end":9184.24,"text":"檢測不到"},{"start":9184.24,"end":9185.24,"text":"那是我的本事"},{"start":9185.24,"end":9186.24,"text":"是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9186.24,"end":9187.24,"text":"沒有出油"},{"start":9187.24,"end":9190.24,"text":"它就整個這個樣子"},{"start":9190.24,"end":9192.24,"text":"那是你的原料不是嗎"},{"start":9192.24,"end":9193.24,"text":"這個是對呀"},{"start":9193.24,"end":9194.24,"text":"這個就是出油"},{"start":9194.24,"end":9195.24,"text":"對呀"},{"start":9195.24,"end":9197.24,"text":"那你的原料就應該要把關"},{"start":9197.24,"end":9199.24,"text":"就要符合食安法的規範"},{"start":9199.24,"end":9201.24,"text":"原料沒有規範"},{"start":9201.24,"end":9203.24,"text":"食安法都沒有規範"},{"start":9203.24,"end":9205.24,"text":"那就是衛福部長"},{"start":9205.24,"end":9206.24,"text":"食安法它的規範"},{"start":9206.24,"end":9208.24,"text":"它是針對食品"},{"start":9208.24,"end":9210.24,"text":"就是說你直接可以用的"},{"start":9210.24,"end":9211.24,"text":"可以吃的"},{"start":9211.24,"end":9212.24,"text":"原料都不規範的"},{"start":9212.24,"end":9214.24,"text":"原料已經出現"},{"start":9214.24,"end":9216.24,"text":"這個一級致癌物"},{"start":9216.24,"end":9218.24,"text":"都不用規範的"},{"start":9218.24,"end":9220.24,"text":"它不是有一律的商品嗎"},{"start":9220.24,"end":9222.24,"text":"沒有你經過精煉純化之後"},{"start":9222.24,"end":9224.24,"text":"它就會變成這個樣子"},{"start":9224.24,"end":9226.24,"text":"對所以原料是可以不用管的"},{"start":9226.24,"end":9227.24,"text":"沒有關係"},{"start":9227.24,"end":9229.24,"text":"要管因為它會影響成本"},{"start":9230.08,"end":9232.08,"text":"只是因為成本不是食安的考量"},{"start":9232.08,"end":9234.08,"text":"好來台長請回去"},{"start":9234.08,"end":9236.08,"text":"我問一下那個長賜"},{"start":9236.08,"end":9238.08,"text":"經濟部長賜"},{"start":9238.08,"end":9241.08,"text":"請問台長的社會責任是什麼"},{"start":9241.08,"end":9243.08,"text":"至少門前雪"},{"start":9243.08,"end":9246.08,"text":"我今天發現我的脫膠原油"},{"start":9246.08,"end":9248.08,"text":"這個本篇比超標"},{"start":9248.08,"end":9250.08,"text":"超標了七倍"},{"start":9250.25,"end":9252.25,"text":"我只要默默的把它退回去就好"},{"start":9252.25,"end":9254.25,"text":"因為不符合我的採購規定"},{"start":9254.25,"end":9258.25,"text":"但是我完全不需要通報"},{"start":9258.25,"end":9260.25,"text":"這個叫做至少門前雪"},{"start":9260.25,"end":9262.25,"text":"在經濟部的標準好低"},{"start":9262.25,"end":9265.25,"text":"一個至少門前雪的人說他是模範生"},{"start":9265.25,"end":9267.25,"text":"請問你的社會責任在哪裡"},{"start":9267.25,"end":9269.25,"text":"你不覺得很異常嗎"},{"start":9269.25,"end":9272.25,"text":"今天你脫膠原油是第一次買是不是"},{"start":9272.25,"end":9274.25,"text":"如果以前都是符合標準"},{"start":9274.25,"end":9276.25,"text":"符合你的採購標準"},{"start":9276.25,"end":9278.25,"text":"今天突然暴增"},{"start":9278.31,"end":9280.31,"text":"通通都不需要反應"},{"start":9280.31,"end":9282.31,"text":"當作沒有發生"},{"start":9282.31,"end":9284.31,"text":"上千公噸隨便"},{"start":9284.31,"end":9287.31,"text":"今天如果中年繼續賣出去也隨便"},{"start":9288.57,"end":9289.57,"text":"不管我的事"},{"start":9289.57,"end":9291.57,"text":"這個叫做模範生"},{"start":9291.57,"end":9293.57,"text":"這個叫做社會責任"},{"start":9293.57,"end":9295.57,"text":"企業社會責任是這樣子寫的"},{"start":9295.57,"end":9297.57,"text":"作為一個經濟部次長"},{"start":9297.57,"end":9299.57,"text":"你們說這個叫模範生"},{"start":9299.57,"end":9301.57,"text":"你的標準真的好低"},{"start":9301.57,"end":9303.57,"text":"還不如一個吹哨子"},{"start":9303.37,"end":9306.37,"text":"跟委員及委員會說明"},{"start":9306.37,"end":9308.37,"text":"台檔公司所生產的產品"},{"start":9308.37,"end":9309.37,"text":"他有自己標準"},{"start":9309.37,"end":9310.37,"text":"所以下一次你們發現"},{"start":9310.37,"end":9312.37,"text":"這樣子一個超標本篇皮的"},{"start":9312.37,"end":9314.37,"text":"交由要不要通報"},{"start":9314.37,"end":9315.37,"text":"基本上台檔公司所有的品料"},{"start":9315.37,"end":9316.37,"text":"他有驗收的規定"},{"start":9316.37,"end":9317.37,"text":"契約的規定"},{"start":9319.95,"end":9321.95,"text":"比如說在生產大豆沙拉油的"},{"start":9321.95,"end":9322.95,"text":"這個原料的部分"},{"start":9322.95,"end":9323.95,"text":"其實他檢驗的項目"},{"start":9323.95,"end":9325.95,"text":"起碼就有十項以上"},{"start":9325.95,"end":9326.95,"text":"很好啊"},{"start":9326.95,"end":9328.95,"text":"我們正常很嚴謹啊"},{"start":9328.95,"end":9330.95,"text":"但你發現這一批交由"},{"start":9330.95,"end":9332.95,"text":"超標這麼多的時候"},{"start":9332.95,"end":9334.95,"text":"你怎麼不用一個很嚴謹的態度來看待"},{"start":9334.95,"end":9336.95,"text":"為什麼不通報"},{"start":9336.95,"end":9337.95,"text":"為什麼你第一時間"},{"start":9337.95,"end":9338.95,"text":"台檔沒有跟你講"},{"start":9339.67,"end":9342.67,"text":"這個依照台中地方法院的新聞稿"},{"start":9342.67,"end":9343.67,"text":"也是有提到"},{"start":9343.67,"end":9344.67,"text":"包括中聯跟服務貿"},{"start":9344.67,"end":9346.67,"text":"他必須要依照食安法去進行通報"},{"start":9346.67,"end":9347.67,"text":"他們有他們的責任"},{"start":9347.67,"end":9348.67,"text":"我現在問的是"},{"start":9348.67,"end":9350.67,"text":"你主管的國營機構台檔"},{"start":9350.67,"end":9352.67,"text":"他發現這麼重大的事情"},{"start":9352.67,"end":9354.67,"text":"需不需要跟你主管機構報告"},{"start":9355.19,"end":9356.19,"text":"你什麼時候知道的"},{"start":9356.19,"end":9357.19,"text":"所謂為何"},{"start":9357.19,"end":9358.19,"text":"你什麼時候知道的"},{"start":9358.19,"end":9360.19,"text":"台檔隱修產品"},{"start":9360.19,"end":9363.19,"text":"從來沒有進入到台檔的生產的產線"},{"start":9363.19,"end":9365.19,"text":"所以你還在辯解"},{"start":9365.19,"end":9367.19,"text":"7月9號的時候"},{"start":9367.19,"end":9368.19,"text":"台檔公司"},{"start":9368.19,"end":9369.19,"text":"你7月9號才知道"},{"start":9369.19,"end":9370.19,"text":"後知後覺"},{"start":9370.19,"end":9372.19,"text":"麻煩委員讓我時間說明"},{"start":9372.19,"end":9374.19,"text":"7月9號台檔收到"},{"start":9374.19,"end":9377.19,"text":"高雄市政府預防性下架的一個通知"},{"start":9377.19,"end":9378.19,"text":"他有通報"},{"start":9379.09,"end":9381.09,"text":"所以你是7月9號知道的"},{"start":9381.09,"end":9383.09,"text":"我們國營是因為平常的"},{"start":9383.09,"end":9385.09,"text":"台檔公司的正常的採購的事項"},{"start":9385.09,"end":9386.09,"text":"包括國營機構"},{"start":9386.09,"end":9387.09,"text":"你不會介入"},{"start":9387.09,"end":9388.09,"text":"非常多的採購的事項"},{"start":9388.09,"end":9390.09,"text":"好你是7月9號知道的"},{"start":9390.09,"end":9391.09,"text":"他以免費的標準"},{"start":9391.09,"end":9392.09,"text":"他不會跟我們說明"},{"start":9392.09,"end":9394.09,"text":"好那市長我再問你"},{"start":9394.09,"end":9395.09,"text":"你認為台檔的社會責任"},{"start":9395.09,"end":9399.09,"text":"下一次他在發現這種原料超標"},{"start":9399.09,"end":9401.09,"text":"含有毒物質"},{"start":9401.09,"end":9403.09,"text":"你認為他需不需要通報"},{"start":9403.09,"end":9404.09,"text":"這個就是我們"},{"start":9404.09,"end":9406.09,"text":"今天本來議程要討論的食安法"},{"start":9406.09,"end":9407.09,"text":"需要去進行"},{"start":9407.09,"end":9409.09,"text":"你認為需不需要通報"},{"start":9409.09,"end":9410.09,"text":"你告訴我就好"},{"start":9410.09,"end":9412.09,"text":"我想知道你的標準"},{"start":9412.09,"end":9414.09,"text":"現在是台檔發現的時候"},{"start":9414.09,"end":9416.09,"text":"類似這樣的情況需不需要通報"},{"start":9416.09,"end":9417.09,"text":"你告訴我就好"},{"start":9417.09,"end":9418.09,"text":"你作為他的"},{"start":9418.09,"end":9420.09,"text":"你覺得需不需要"},{"start":9420.09,"end":9422.09,"text":"不敢回答請你回去"},{"start":9422.09,"end":9424.09,"text":"來石崇良部長"},{"start":9424.09,"end":9425.09,"text":"市長你請回"},{"start":9425.09,"end":9427.09,"text":"你根本都不敢回答這個問題"},{"start":9428.5,"end":9430.5,"text":"我只能說非常的遺憾"},{"start":9430.5,"end":9433.5,"text":"這個社會有良心的人越來越少"},{"start":9433.5,"end":9436.5,"text":"我們很佩服陳鴻達主任檢察官"},{"start":9436.5,"end":9437.5,"text":"還有詹長權教授"},{"start":9437.5,"end":9439.5,"text":"他們是社會的良心"},{"start":9439.5,"end":9440.5,"text":"他們講該講的話"},{"st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我的質詢到這邊結束"},{"start":10076.36,"end":10077.36,"text":"我跟委員最後說明一句"},{"start":10078.07,"end":10080.07,"text":"我們的調查報告寫得很清楚"},{"start":10080.07,"end":10084.07,"text":"必須按照原料的品質做製程調整"},{"start":10084.07,"end":10086.07,"text":"所以需要監督的"},{"start":10086.07,"end":10088.07,"text":"是地方政府要去監督好"},{"start":10088.07,"end":10090.07,"text":"他的製程過程"},{"start":10090.07,"end":10092.07,"text":"是不是符合HACCP的標準"},{"start":10093.86,"end":10095.86,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10096.14,"end":10098.14,"text":"謝謝王毓民委員的質詢"},{"start":10098.14,"end":10100.14,"text":"現在請邱霍入委員質詢"},{"start":10103.35,"end":10106.35,"text":"好 有請主席還有各位委員"},{"start":10106.35,"end":10107.35,"text":"各位官員大家好"},{"start":10107.35,"end":10109.35,"text":"有請石崇良部長"},{"start":10109.35,"end":10111.35,"text":"有請江志剛署長"},{"start":10112.14,"end":10114.14,"text":"有請江署長石部長"},{"start":10114.14,"end":10115.14,"text":"好 委員好"},{"start":10115.14,"end":10116.14,"text":"是 我必須說呢"},{"start":10116.14,"end":10118.14,"text":"這個剛陳金輝委員跟王毓民委員"},{"start":10118.14,"end":10120.14,"text":"在台下質詢的時候"},{"start":10120.14,"end":10124.14,"text":"我有非常多次我都忍不住了"},{"start":10124.14,"end":10126.14,"text":"我都好想插嘴"},{"start":10126.14,"end":10128.14,"text":"但是我忍到現在"},{"start":10128.14,"end":10130.14,"text":"終於換我上台了"},{"start":10130.14,"end":10133.14,"text":"好 我今天的題目是台長不通報"},{"start":10133.14,"end":10135.14,"text":"還誇口他是乖寶寶"},{"start":10135.14,"end":10138.14,"text":"真的是讓人家這個聽不下去"},{"start":10138.14,"end":10141.14,"text":"那前情提要我先問上次的問題"},{"start":10141.14,"end":10143.14,"text":"上次陳金輝委員問說"},{"start":10143.14,"end":10146.14,"text":"可不可以公布20%神秘會議專家的名單"},{"start":10146.14,"end":10148.14,"text":"然後你有提到說"},{"start":10148.14,"end":10150.14,"text":"你要去詢問專家願不願意被公布"},{"start":10150.14,"end":10152.14,"text":"請問一下你詢問的結果是怎樣"},{"start":10153.33,"end":10156.33,"text":"我們今天下午會把它公布"},{"start":10156.33,"end":10158.33,"text":"你說公布七位委員的名單"},{"start":10158.33,"end":10159.33,"text":"七位委員的名單"},{"start":10159.33,"end":10161.33,"text":"但是請大家不要獵巫"},{"start":10161.33,"end":10163.33,"text":"他們都是學友專家"},{"start":10163.33,"end":10165.33,"text":"我們就是論事啊"},{"start":10165.33,"end":10166.33,"text":"怎麼會獵巫"},{"start":10166.33,"end":10167.33,"text":"我們又不是輕鳥側翼"},{"start":10167.33,"end":10168.33,"text":"怎麼會獵巫呢"},{"start":10168.33,"end":10170.33,"text":"所以神秘的專家"},{"start":10170.33,"end":10171.33,"text":"你們到時候會公布"},{"start":10171.33,"end":10172.33,"text":"那我們就拭目以待"},{"start":10172.33,"end":10175.33,"text":"好 那現在重點來了講內容"},{"start":10175.33,"end":10176.33,"text":"內容就是說"},{"start":10176.33,"end":10178.33,"text":"因為剛陳金輝委員也有修會議紀錄"},{"start":10178.33,"end":10179.33,"text":"我有觀察到"},{"start":10179.33,"end":10182.33,"text":"會議紀錄最後的結論就是建議"},{"start":10182.33,"end":10185.33,"text":"建議將專家所提的建議納入考量"},{"start":10185.33,"end":10189.33,"text":"建議業者預防性下架以20%為標準"},{"start":10189.33,"end":10191.33,"text":"可是建議怎麼變強制"},{"start":10191.33,"end":10193.33,"text":"7月4號公布的一個新聞就是強制"},{"start":10193.33,"end":10196.33,"text":"就是20%以上的下架"},{"start":10196.33,"end":10198.33,"text":"20%以下還可以再加上"},{"start":10198.33,"end":10200.33,"text":"這不就是當時的法律秩序"},{"start":10200.33,"end":10201.33,"text":"請問一下誰拍板"},{"start":10201.33,"end":10203.33,"text":"剛陳金輝委員已經有問了"},{"start":10203.33,"end":10205.33,"text":"好像是江之港委那個署長拍板"},{"start":10205.33,"end":10207.33,"text":"因為你是會議主席"},{"start":10207.33,"end":10209.33,"text":"所以這個20%人家學者只是建議"},{"start":10209.33,"end":10211.33,"text":"那最後要有一個人拍板"},{"start":10211.33,"end":10213.33,"text":"變成7月4號的法律秩序"},{"start":10213.33,"end":10215.33,"text":"剛好像陳金輝委員問到"},{"start":10215.33,"end":10216.33,"text":"是江之港署長拍板"},{"start":10216.33,"end":10218.33,"text":"我只是在確認"},{"start":10218.82,"end":10219.82,"text":"這個問題太重要了"},{"start":10219.82,"end":10220.82,"text":"我只是在確認"},{"start":10220.82,"end":10222.82,"text":"所以江署長是你拍板嗎"},{"start":10222.82,"end":10224.82,"text":"所以不是時部長拍板"},{"start":10224.82,"end":10226.82,"text":"也不是行政院長拍板嗎"},{"start":10226.82,"end":10228.82,"text":"在跟委員說明這一次的"},{"start":10228.82,"end":10230.82,"text":"整個的這個預防性下架"},{"start":10230.82,"end":10232.82,"text":"是逐步的在擴大"},{"start":10232.82,"end":10234.82,"text":"它是逐步的擴大"},{"start":10234.82,"end":10236.82,"text":"一開始是問題"},{"start":10236.82,"end":10238.82,"text":"不用講那些我都知道了"},{"start":10238.82,"end":10243.82,"text":"7月8號24點才把第二章到三點"},{"start":10243.82,"end":10246.82,"text":"不要轉移焦點不要問A打B"},{"start":10246.82,"end":10247.82,"text":"因為時間很有限"},{"start":10247.82,"end":10248.82,"text":"我後面題目很多"},{"start":10248.82,"end":10250.82,"text":"那請問一下是誰拍板"},{"start":10250.82,"end":10251.82,"text":"江之港署長"},{"start":10251.82,"end":10252.82,"text":"你要不要為自己捍衛一下"},{"start":10252.82,"end":10254.82,"text":"因為剛剛聽起來就是你"},{"start":10254.82,"end":10255.82,"text":"你是會議主席"},{"start":10255.82,"end":10256.82,"text":"最後是你拍板嗎"},{"start":10257.62,"end":10258.62,"text":"這個最後都是"},{"start":10258.62,"end":10259.62,"text":"沒關係你不要護航"},{"start":10259.62,"end":10260.62,"text":"我在問江之港"},{"start":10260.62,"end":10262.62,"text":"都是我們為福部來處理的"},{"start":10262.62,"end":10264.62,"text":"那所以就是時同僚拍板嗎"},{"start":10264.62,"end":10265.62,"text":"就是誰"},{"start":10265.62,"end":10267.62,"text":"我只是要一個人民而已"},{"start":10267.62,"end":10268.62,"text":"那你的意思就是說"},{"start":10268.62,"end":10269.62,"text":"都是你們為福部"},{"start":10269.62,"end":10270.62,"text":"那就是你加張"},{"start":10270.62,"end":10272.62,"text":"那個江之港署長兩個人嗎"},{"start":10272.62,"end":10273.62,"text":"意思就是這樣嗎"},{"start":10273.62,"end":10274.62,"text":"還是你還要再去"},{"start":10274.62,"end":10276.62,"text":"這最後要怎麼樣的"},{"start":10276.62,"end":10279.62,"text":"這個擴大這個預防性下架的話"},{"start":10279.62,"end":10281.62,"text":"都是參考了"},{"start":10281.62,"end":10282.62,"text":"不是這個20%你們到現在"},{"start":10282.62,"end":10284.62,"text":"不是都還認為很正確"},{"start":10284.62,"end":10286.62,"text":"專家會你的建議"},{"start":10286.62,"end":10289.62,"text":"然後再根據我們調查的結果"},{"start":10289.62,"end":10292.62,"text":"都還認為20%很正確"},{"start":10292.62,"end":10293.62,"text":"而會嘎然而止"},{"start":10293.62,"end":10294.62,"text":"只是因為不希望地方"},{"start":10294.62,"end":10296.62,"text":"他在執行上有困難"},{"start":10296.62,"end":10298.62,"text":"如果你真的覺得這20%"},{"start":10298.62,"end":10299.62,"text":"這麼的美好"},{"start":10299.62,"end":10300.62,"text":"為什麼到現在"},{"start":10300.62,"end":10302.62,"text":"問一個人民問不出來"},{"start":10302.62,"end":10304.62,"text":"那這樣子不是讓我們很自益嗎"},{"start":10304.62,"end":10305.62,"text":"我們已經同意了"},{"start":10305.62,"end":10307.62,"text":"不是就誰拍板嗎"},{"start":10307.62,"end":10308.62,"text":"就誰拍板嗎"},{"start":10308.62,"end":10309.62,"text":"就你跟江之港署長"},{"start":10309.62,"end":10310.62,"text":"兩個人拍板嗎"},{"start":10310.62,"end":10311.62,"text":"為什麼問一個"},{"start":10311.62,"end":10313.62,"text":"你如果20%的沒有身分"},{"start":10313.62,"end":10315.62,"text":"為什麼要迴避要反躲"},{"start":10315.62,"end":10316.62,"text":"沒有問題啊"},{"start":10316.62,"end":10317.62,"text":"沒有問題你就講啊"},{"start":10317.62,"end":10318.62,"text":"等於是誰是你嘛"},{"start":10318.62,"end":10320.62,"text":"是從量拍板20%嘛"},{"start":10320.62,"end":10321.62,"text":"就是這樣子"},{"start":10321.62,"end":10323.62,"text":"好那奇怪這個答案"},{"start":10323.62,"end":10324.62,"text":"其實早就可以承認了"},{"start":10324.62,"end":10326.62,"text":"為什麼到今天8月5號才承認"},{"start":10326.62,"end":10328.62,"text":"好來台湯蓋牌呢"},{"start":10328.62,"end":10329.62,"text":"那如果我想台湯的事情"},{"start":10329.62,"end":10330.62,"text":"我們都非常了解"},{"start":10330.62,"end":10333.62,"text":"如果不是台中的地方法院吹哨的話"},{"start":10333.62,"end":10335.62,"text":"我想我們全民現在還蒙在鼓裡"},{"start":10335.62,"end":10337.62,"text":"那剛我也講了"},{"start":10337.62,"end":10339.62,"text":"南橋沒有通報被開罰"},{"start":10339.62,"end":10341.62,"text":"台湯沒有通報就被開脫"},{"start":10341.62,"end":10342.62,"text":"很明顯的就是雙標嘛"},{"start":10342.62,"end":10344.62,"text":"那現在署長你的意思就是"},{"start":10344.62,"end":10347.62,"text":"大家去追究台湯你不了解這個邏輯"},{"start":10347.62,"end":10349.62,"text":"那我們才不了解你的邏輯"},{"start":10349.62,"end":10350.62,"text":"因為邏輯很簡單啊"},{"start":10350.62,"end":10353.62,"text":"邏輯就是食安法第七條第五項啊"},{"start":10353.62,"end":10356.62,"text":"如果發現產品有危害安全衛生之虞"},{"start":10356.62,"end":10359.62,"text":"那就應該要通報當地的主管縣市啊"},{"start":10359.62,"end":10360.62,"text":"所以邏輯很簡單啊"},{"start":10360.62,"end":10363.62,"text":"第七條第五項法有明文規定啊"},{"start":10363.62,"end":10366.62,"text":"產品有危害衛生安全之虞就要通報啊"},{"start":10366.62,"end":10368.62,"text":"請問哪裡不了解這個邏輯"},{"start":10369.45,"end":10371.45,"text":"我的邏輯很清楚"},{"start":10371.45,"end":10376.45,"text":"我們訂的扁平比的標準是實用油脂"},{"start":10376.45,"end":10378.45,"text":"這個是脫膠原油"},{"start":10378.45,"end":10381.45,"text":"我們沒有訂脫膠原油的標準"},{"start":10381.45,"end":10383.45,"text":"好那時部長我要跟你講一件事"},{"start":10383.45,"end":10386.45,"text":"不是法律專家就不要亂解釋法律"},{"start":10386.45,"end":10389.45,"text":"不是法律專家不懂法律就請長佐"},{"start":10390.1,"end":10393.1,"text":"什麼叫做脫膠原油不是食品"},{"start":10393.1,"end":10395.1,"text":"食安法哪一條告訴我們脫膠原油"},{"start":10395.1,"end":10397.1,"text":"半成品不是食品"},{"start":10398.86,"end":10401.86,"text":"食安法哪一條告訴我們脫膠原油"},{"start":10401.86,"end":10403.86,"text":"這個半成品不是食品"},{"start":10403.86,"end":10405.86,"text":"脫膠原油沒有訂標準"},{"start":10405.86,"end":10409.86,"text":"BAP的標準是指食用油脂"},{"start":10409.86,"end":10413.86,"text":"脫膠原油不是食用油脂"},{"start":10413.86,"end":10415.86,"text":"所以它就沒有標準啊"},{"start":10415.86,"end":10416.86,"text":"沒有標準"},{"start":10416.86,"end":10418.86,"text":"如果要訂也可以"},{"start":10418.86,"end":10420.86,"text":"我們大家來討論要訂多少"},{"start":10420.86,"end":10424.86,"text":"可是全世界沒有人訂脫膠原油的扁平標準"},{"start":10424.86,"end":10426.86,"text":"你是不是人"},{"start":10426.94,"end":10427.94,"text":"你是人嗎"},{"start":10428.6,"end":10430.6,"text":"那生你的阿公的阿公"},{"start":10430.6,"end":10432.6,"text":"你來自於阿公的阿公嘛"},{"start":10432.6,"end":10434.6,"text":"今天才有你存在站在這裡"},{"start":10434.6,"end":10435.6,"text":"你是人嘛"},{"start":10435.6,"end":10436.6,"text":"那你阿公的阿公是不是人"},{"start":10437.98,"end":10440.98,"text":"你下游這個人的產品是從上游來的嗎"},{"start":10440.98,"end":10441.98,"text":"你的阿公應該"},{"start":10441.98,"end":10443.98,"text":"你阿公是不是人你回答不出來"},{"start":10445.2,"end":10447.2,"text":"你的阿公是不是人"},{"start":10448.22,"end":10450.22,"text":"我是人"},{"start":10450.22,"end":10451.22,"text":"阿公是不是人"},{"start":10451.22,"end":10453.22,"text":"我的細胞不能說細胞就是人"},{"start":10453.22,"end":10455.22,"text":"不是啦我在問你阿公是不是人啦"},{"start":10455.8,"end":10457.8,"text":"你就是從阿公來的嗎"},{"start":10457.8,"end":10458.8,"text":"人是由細胞"},{"start":10458.8,"end":10460.8,"text":"然後組成器官"},{"start":10460.8,"end":10462.8,"text":"你的阿公是不是人你不敢回答"},{"start":10462.8,"end":10464.8,"text":"回避到這種程度"},{"start":10464.8,"end":10466.8,"text":"不是啊你就回答阿公是不是人"},{"start":10466.8,"end":10467.8,"text":"你再回答我"},{"start":10467.8,"end":10469.8,"text":"我在打連我的邏輯啊"},{"start":10469.8,"end":10470.8,"text":"那你的阿公"},{"start":10470.8,"end":10472.8,"text":"問你你的阿公是不是人"},{"start":10472.8,"end":10474.8,"text":"我不瞭解你的邏輯"},{"start":10474.8,"end":10475.8,"text":"你不瞭解我的邏輯啊"},{"start":10475.8,"end":10477.8,"text":"那你就是連你現在就是護航"},{"start":10477.8,"end":10479.8,"text":"到連你的阿公是不是人你都沒有辦法回應"},{"start":10479.8,"end":10481.8,"text":"好那我問部長的邏輯就是"},{"start":10481.8,"end":10483.8,"text":"如果今天"},{"start":10483.8,"end":10485.8,"text":"我沒有要批評你的阿公"},{"start":10485.8,"end":10486.8,"text":"是因為你不回答"},{"start":10486.8,"end":10487.8,"text":"我現在要問你"},{"start":10487.8,"end":10489.8,"text":"你的出油是不是食品"},{"start":10489.8,"end":10492.8,"text":"如果你今天十大碰沙拉油是食品"},{"start":10492.8,"end":10495.8,"text":"為什麼來自於他的商流辦產品不是食品"},{"start":10495.8,"end":10497.8,"text":"我現在問你一件事"},{"start":10498.12,"end":10499.12,"text":"食安法呢"},{"start":10499.12,"end":10501.12,"text":"看不懂食安法請長佐"},{"start":10501.12,"end":10503.12,"text":"來食安法對於食品的定義是什麼"},{"start":10503.12,"end":10505.12,"text":"來講一下食品的定義是什麼"},{"start":10506.97,"end":10508.97,"text":"那為什麼剛有一個人講說"},{"start":10508.97,"end":10510.97,"text":"原料不是食品"},{"start":10510.97,"end":10511.97,"text":"因為考量成本"},{"start":10511.97,"end":10514.97,"text":"所以食安法才把原料歸進去"},{"start":10514.97,"end":10515.97,"text":"原料不是食品"},{"start":10515.97,"end":10516.97,"text":"這是誰的論述"},{"start":10516.97,"end":10517.97,"text":"剛有一個人的論述"},{"start":10517.97,"end":10519.97,"text":"曾經會委員問的"},{"start":10519.97,"end":10521.97,"text":"原料不是食品"},{"start":10523.5,"end":10525.5,"text":"請問一下部長你覺得原料是食品嗎"},{"start":10525.5,"end":10528.5,"text":"在食安法第三條明定"},{"start":10528.5,"end":10532.5,"text":"食品當然包含產品及其原料"},{"start":10532.5,"end":10534.5,"text":"如果原料是食品"},{"start":10534.5,"end":10536.5,"text":"第七條的通報"},{"start":10536.5,"end":10537.5,"text":"你也可以念一下"},{"start":10537.5,"end":10539.5,"text":"它談的是產品通報"},{"start":10540.53,"end":10541.53,"text":"如果原料是食品"},{"start":10541.53,"end":10543.53,"text":"原料最後會變成成品"},{"start":10543.53,"end":10544.53,"text":"第七條第五項"},{"start":10544.53,"end":10546.53,"text":"中間會有經過辦成品"},{"start":10546.53,"end":10547.53,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":10547.53,"end":10549.53,"text":"如果原料都已經是食品了"},{"start":10549.53,"end":10554.53,"text":"食品業者已發現產品有危害"},{"start":10554.53,"end":10556.53,"text":"所以他針對的通報是產品"},{"start":10556.53,"end":10558.53,"text":"你為什麼覺得產品兩個字"},{"start":10558.53,"end":10560.53,"text":"沒有包括成品跟辦成品"},{"start":10560.83,"end":10562.83,"text":"為什麼你覺得成品兩個字"},{"start":10562.83,"end":10564.83,"text":"來我們看一下食安法第七條第二項"},{"start":10564.83,"end":10568.83,"text":"食品業者應該把產品原材料辦成品"},{"start":10568.83,"end":10571.83,"text":"是食用油脂"},{"start":10571.83,"end":10572.83,"text":"你不要跟他稀扯"},{"start":10572.83,"end":10574.83,"text":"我現在跟你講產品"},{"start":10574.83,"end":10575.83,"text":"來我請江志剛"},{"start":10575.83,"end":10577.83,"text":"江志剛署長"},{"start":10577.83,"end":10578.83,"text":"我知道你有法律背景"},{"start":10578.83,"end":10579.83,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":10579.83,"end":10581.83,"text":"產品兩個字"},{"start":10581.83,"end":10583.83,"text":"食安法第七條第五項"},{"start":10583.83,"end":10584.83,"text":"我們再講"},{"start":10584.83,"end":10585.83,"text":"如果產品有危害"},{"start":10585.83,"end":10587.83,"text":"衛生健康之虞要通報"},{"start":10587.83,"end":10588.83,"text":"請問產品兩個字"},{"start":10588.83,"end":10591.83,"text":"有包括成品跟辦成品嗎"},{"start":10591.83,"end":10593.83,"text":"我想這邊的產品"},{"start":10593.83,"end":10594.83,"text":"你有讀過法律"},{"start":10594.83,"end":10595.83,"text":"請你不要"},{"start":10595.83,"end":10596.83,"text":"相對應"},{"start":10596.83,"end":10598.83,"text":"我們其實對於規制裡面"},{"start":10598.83,"end":10600.83,"text":"有訂標準的這些產品"},{"start":10600.83,"end":10601.83,"text":"有違規"},{"start":10601.83,"end":10603.83,"text":"不要先說解釋到這種程度"},{"start":10603.83,"end":10606.83,"text":"我們現在單純就在講產品"},{"start":10606.83,"end":10607.83,"text":"跟你做進一步的交流"},{"start":10607.83,"end":10609.83,"text":"那我什麼東西"},{"start":10609.83,"end":10610.83,"text":"我說就我的了解"},{"start":10610.83,"end":10612.83,"text":"我們對於這個產品"},{"start":10612.83,"end":10613.83,"text":"它有訂定的"},{"start":10613.83,"end":10616.83,"text":"特定是衛生標準的扁平皮"},{"start":10616.83,"end":10618.83,"text":"所以這個產品有違規"},{"start":10618.83,"end":10619.83,"text":"一定要通報"},{"start":10619.83,"end":10620.83,"text":"之虞好嗎"},{"start":10620.83,"end":10621.83,"text":"所以違規和產品"},{"start":10621.83,"end":10622.83,"text":"你把之虞林淑芬委員"},{"start":10622.83,"end":10623.83,"text":"在一個月之前"},{"start":10623.83,"end":10625.83,"text":"就已經之虞兩個字"},{"start":10625.83,"end":10627.83,"text":"一再而再的提醒衛福部了"},{"start":10627.83,"end":10630.83,"text":"之虞就是沒有嚴格標準"},{"start":10630.83,"end":10631.83,"text":"懂不懂法律"},{"start":10631.83,"end":10632.83,"text":"現在是連文藝解釋"},{"start":10632.83,"end":10633.83,"text":"也掌握不了嗎"},{"start":10633.83,"end":10634.83,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":10634.83,"end":10635.83,"text":"來第一件事"},{"start":10635.83,"end":10637.83,"text":"為什麼我現在簡單的問"},{"start":10637.83,"end":10639.83,"text":"為什麼食安法第七條第五項"},{"start":10639.83,"end":10640.83,"text":"產品兩個字"},{"start":10640.83,"end":10641.83,"text":"被你們解釋起來"},{"start":10641.83,"end":10643.83,"text":"不包括成品跟辦成品"},{"start":10643.83,"end":10644.83,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":10644.83,"end":10646.83,"text":"如果你的第二項"},{"start":10646.83,"end":10649.83,"text":"有提到說產品原材料辦成品成品"},{"start":10649.83,"end":10652.83,"text":"就代表ABC這項元素"},{"start":10652.83,"end":10655.83,"text":"就是在食安食品的範圍之內"},{"start":10655.83,"end":10657.83,"text":"為什麼產品兩個字"},{"start":10657.83,"end":10658.83,"text":"被你們解釋起來"},{"start":10658.83,"end":10659.83,"text":"沒有成品跟辦成品"},{"start":10659.83,"end":10661.83,"text":"委員如果要把它"},{"start":10661.83,"end":10663.83,"text":"做最大擴大的解釋"},{"start":10663.83,"end":10664.83,"text":"也不是不行"},{"start":10664.83,"end":10666.83,"text":"但是它的基本要件"},{"start":10666.83,"end":10668.83,"text":"是要訂有標準"},{"start":10669.45,"end":10670.45,"text":"人家已經知與了"},{"start":10670.45,"end":10673.45,"text":"請問知與會有標準嗎"},{"start":10673.45,"end":10675.45,"text":"知與你看不懂法律嗎"},{"start":10675.45,"end":10676.45,"text":"知與會有標準"},{"start":10676.45,"end":10678.45,"text":"你現在為了要呼籲"},{"start":10678.45,"end":10680.45,"text":"委員到這種程度"},{"start":10680.45,"end":10681.45,"text":"來我先跟你"},{"start":10681.45,"end":10682.45,"text":"來"},{"start":10682.45,"end":10683.45,"text":"這是因為法律專家"},{"start":10683.45,"end":10684.45,"text":"所以聽不下去"},{"start":10684.45,"end":10686.45,"text":"我在下面就是聽得很痛苦"},{"start":10686.45,"end":10687.45,"text":"我講一下"},{"start":10687.45,"end":10689.45,"text":"所有的法律都有確定"},{"start":10689.45,"end":10690.45,"text":"來"},{"start":10690.45,"end":10691.45,"text":"你要講法律是嗎"},{"start":10691.45,"end":10692.45,"text":"你們的30條"},{"start":10692.45,"end":10693.45,"text":"你們的31條"},{"start":10693.45,"end":10694.45,"text":"你們的32條"},{"start":10694.45,"end":10695.45,"text":"一錄以下"},{"start":10695.45,"end":10696.45,"text":"你們都把"},{"start":10696.45,"end":10698.45,"text":"食品跟產品兩個字混用"},{"start":10698.45,"end":10700.45,"text":"回去看食安法"},{"start":10700.45,"end":10701.45,"text":"不要在這邊"},{"start":10701.45,"end":10702.45,"text":"一拗產品兩個字"},{"start":10702.45,"end":10703.45,"text":"不是食品"},{"start":10703.45,"end":10704.45,"text":"產品兩個字"},{"start":10704.45,"end":10705.45,"text":"其實它就包括"},{"s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就AI啦"},{"start":10815.54,"end":10817.54,"text":"名字是你啦"},{"start":10817.54,"end":10819.54,"text":"沒有經過我同意"},{"start":10819.54,"end":10820.54,"text":"沒有經過你同意"},{"start":10820.54,"end":10822.54,"text":"我對這個組織我很抗議"},{"start":10822.54,"end":10824.54,"text":"你很抗議 抗議什麼"},{"start":10824.54,"end":10825.54,"text":"請問你抗議什麼"},{"start":10825.54,"end":10826.54,"text":"沒有我同意"},{"start":10826.54,"end":10827.54,"text":"怎麼會有我的肖像呢"},{"start":10827.54,"end":10828.54,"text":"肖像完全是"},{"start":10828.54,"end":10829.54,"text":"所以你要怎麼樣"},{"start":10829.54,"end":10830.54,"text":"可以這樣嗎"},{"start":10830.54,"end":10831.54,"text":"你可以主張"},{"start":10831.54,"end":10832.54,"text":"當然可以"},{"start":10832.54,"end":10833.54,"text":"把它換成是委員的嗎"},{"start":10833.54,"end":10834.54,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":10834.54,"end":10835.54,"text":"你換了它這沒有什麼"},{"start":10835.54,"end":10836.54,"text":"這本來就是可說公平"},{"start":10836.54,"end":10837.54,"text":"公開"},{"start":10837.54,"end":10838.54,"text":"我尊重委員的肖像權"},{"start":10838.54,"end":10839.54,"text":"沒關係"},{"start":10839.54,"end":10841.54,"text":"你如果真的覺得你不舒服"},{"start":10841.54,"end":10843.54,"text":"或者是如果你覺得我有違法"},{"start":10843.54,"end":10844.54,"text":"那就請你去提告"},{"start":10844.54,"end":10845.54,"text":"非常不舒服"},{"start":10845.54,"end":10847.54,"text":"我很遺憾"},{"start":10847.54,"end":10849.54,"text":"我很遺憾我在質詢"},{"start":10849.54,"end":10851.54,"text":"站在立法委員的職權"},{"start":10851.54,"end":10852.54,"text":"然後你不舒服"},{"start":10852.54,"end":10853.54,"text":"我很遺憾啊"},{"start":10853.54,"end":10854.54,"text":"那如果你要我道歉"},{"start":10854.54,"end":10855.54,"text":"沒問題可以跟你道歉"},{"start":10855.54,"end":10857.54,"text":"這根本是芝麻綠豆大的小事"},{"start":10857.54,"end":10859.54,"text":"沒有必要拿來質詢台下議方"},{"start":10859.54,"end":10860.54,"text":"第一如果你"},{"start":10860.54,"end":10861.54,"text":"這個問題"},{"start":10861.54,"end":10862.54,"text":"這個不是芝麻綠豆大的小事"},{"start":10862.54,"end":10863.54,"text":"好沒關係"},{"start":10863.54,"end":10864.54,"text":"如果你不舒服"},{"start":10864.54,"end":10865.54,"text":"我就道歉"},{"start":10865.54,"end":10866.54,"text":"那我現在就是"},{"start":10866.54,"end":10868.54,"text":"如果今天你去買到一個爛菜"},{"start":10868.54,"end":10869.54,"text":"請問一下你做何感想"},{"start":10869.54,"end":10871.54,"text":"我當然不會想要買爛菜啊"},{"start":10871.54,"end":10872.54,"text":"對啊"},{"start":10872.54,"end":10873.54,"text":"你當然不會想買爛菜啊"},{"start":10873.54,"end":10875.54,"text":"那為什麼爛菜會流通到市面"},{"start":10875.54,"end":10876.54,"text":"因為政府沒有介入"},{"start":10876.54,"end":10877.54,"text":"政府沒有管制啊"},{"start":10877.54,"end":10880.54,"text":"所以爛菜才出現在菜攤上啊"},{"start":10880.54,"end":10882.54,"text":"你當然不會想到買爛菜啊"},{"start":10882.54,"end":10884.54,"text":"如果不通報全民受害"},{"start":10884.54,"end":10886.54,"text":"連你部長也會被包獲進去啊"},{"start":10886.54,"end":10887.54,"text":"部長我問你"},{"start":10887.54,"end":10889.54,"text":"請問你真的吃到毒油"},{"start":10889.54,"end":10890.54,"text":"你沒有關係嗎"},{"start":10891.95,"end":10893.95,"text":"我們會油品做安全的吧"},{"start":10893.95,"end":10895.95,"text":"我告訴你這些油已經全部都流到"},{"start":10895.95,"end":10897.95,"text":"每個人的肚子裡面去"},{"start":10897.95,"end":10898.95,"text":"連代總統都吃到了"},{"start":10898.95,"end":10900.95,"text":"你真的吃到毒油也沒關係嗎"},{"start":10900.95,"end":10902.95,"text":"好那我現在再問你一件事"},{"start":10904.66,"end":10906.66,"text":"請問一下通報只能靠法律嗎"},{"start":10906.66,"end":10909.66,"text":"我完全全認為食安法第七號第五項"},{"start":10909.66,"end":10911.66,"text":"就是包括成品、半成品還有原料"},{"start":10911.66,"end":10912.66,"text":"那你不認為"},{"start":10912.66,"end":10913.66,"text":"好退一步言之"},{"start":10913.66,"end":10915.66,"text":"如果通報不能靠法律的話"},{"start":10915.66,"end":10917.66,"text":"能不能靠良心"},{"start":10917.66,"end":10918.66,"text":"能不能用高標準"},{"start":10918.66,"end":10920.66,"text":"法律只是一個最低的標準"},{"start":10920.66,"end":10923.66,"text":"良心是一個比較高的標準"},{"start":10923.66,"end":10925.66,"text":"難道我們對經濟本土"},{"start":10925.66,"end":10926.66,"text":"我們台銅公司"},{"start":10926.66,"end":10928.66,"text":"我們用的是最低的標準嗎"},{"start":10928.66,"end":10930.66,"text":"我們不能用高一點的標準嗎"},{"start":10930.66,"end":10931.66,"text":"我們都支持"},{"start":10931.66,"end":10933.66,"text":"為了食安把關"},{"start":10933.66,"end":10934.66,"text":"全民來通報"},{"start":10934.66,"end":10936.66,"text":"我們都支持"},{"start":10936.66,"end":10937.66,"text":"我們也鼓勵"},{"start":10937.66,"end":10940.66,"text":"但是面對要裁罰的時候"},{"start":10940.66,"end":10943.66,"text":"我們必須依法裁處"},{"start":10943.66,"end":10945.66,"text":"那依法裁處就是已經告訴你了"},{"start":10945.66,"end":10948.66,"text":"你們可能要請法律專家來幫你們"},{"start":10948.66,"end":10950.66,"text":"鑑定第七條第五項"},{"start":10950.66,"end":10951.66,"text":"有沒有包括產品"},{"start":10951.66,"end":10953.66,"text":"我相信你去問十個法律專家"},{"start":10953.66,"end":10955.66,"text":"有十個法律專家都會告訴你"},{"start":10955.66,"end":10958.66,"text":"產品絕對有包括成品跟半成品"},{"start":10958.66,"end":10961.66,"text":"所以請你今天去找法律專家"},{"start":10961.66,"end":10963.66,"text":"跟他們諮詢"},{"start":10963.66,"end":10965.66,"text":"好來那接著我們來看一下"},{"start":10965.66,"end":10967.66,"text":"通報義務要不要問總統"},{"start":10967.66,"end":10969.66,"text":"總統在當台南市長的時候"},{"start":10969.66,"end":10972.66,"text":"他有訂出這個台南市食品安全管理自治條例"},{"start":10972.66,"end":10975.66,"text":"他有提到說食品有危害身體之慾"},{"start":10975.66,"end":10977.66,"text":"但四十八小時就要通報"},{"start":10977.66,"end":10981.66,"text":"那請問一下石崇良部長你認同"},{"start":10981.66,"end":10983.66,"text":"這個賴清德總統"},{"start":10983.66,"end":10986.66,"text":"在他市長任內所通過的這個自治條例嗎"},{"start":10986.66,"end":10988.66,"text":"我認同依法行政"},{"start":10988.66,"end":10989.66,"text":"你認同依法行政"},{"start":10989.66,"end":10990.66,"text":"你認同依法行政"},{"start":10990.66,"end":10993.66,"text":"但是你今天認為台糖不用通報"},{"start":10993.66,"end":10996.66,"text":"你就完全是打臉總統他在市長時期"},{"start":10996.66,"end":10997.66,"text":"所訂出來的法律"},{"start":10997.66,"end":10999.66,"text":"因為我們大家解讀就是這樣"},{"start":10999.66,"end":11002.66,"text":"剛剛提到我們需要依法行政"},{"start":11002.66,"end":11005.66,"text":"衛福部一路開綠燈開到現在"},{"start":11005.66,"end":11008.66,"text":"請問一下台糖的依法行政"},{"start":11008.66,"end":11009.66,"text":"那依法行政很好"},{"start":11009.66,"end":11011.66,"text":"法律保留原則"},{"start":11011.66,"end":11013.66,"text":"沒關係法律保留"},{"start":11013.66,"end":11016.66,"text":"我們訂的就是食用油脂的產品"},{"start":11016.66,"end":11018.66,"text":"產品有依律的通報義務"},{"start":11018.66,"end":11020.66,"text":"已經保留給法律去制定了"},{"start":11020.66,"end":11022.66,"text":"就是食含法7條第五項"},{"start":11022.66,"end":11024.66,"text":"他本身已經進行法律保留原則"},{"start":11024.66,"end":11027.66,"text":"只是執法的人不認為"},{"start":11027.66,"end":11030.66,"text":"法律裡頭的文藝有包括半成品"},{"start":11030.66,"end":11032.66,"text":"所以你說你要依法行政"},{"start":11032.66,"end":11034.66,"text":"我舉雙手我舉雙腳半成"},{"start":11034.66,"end":11035.66,"text":"不要擴大文藝都沒有關係"},{"start":11035.66,"end":11036.66,"text":"但是我還是強調"},{"start":11036.66,"end":11037.66,"text":"我沒有擴大文藝"},{"start":11037.66,"end":11040.66,"text":"你沒有擴大文藝這個就做法律的文藝"},{"start":11040.66,"end":11043.66,"text":"解釋跟目的性體質還有體質"},{"start":11045.43,"end":11046.43,"text":"蛤你再說一次"},{"start":11046.43,"end":11048.43,"text":"我們的貶貧比標準"},{"start":11048.43,"end":11053.43,"text":"是定在食用油脂不是脫膠原油"},{"start":11053.43,"end":11055.43,"text":"如果這樣下去的時候"},{"start":11055.43,"end":11057.43,"text":"可能還有很多人沒有通報"},{"start":11057.43,"end":11058.43,"text":"你有沒有看到董子余"},{"start":11058.43,"end":11060.43,"text":"你剛開始在跟我編說"},{"start":11060.43,"end":11062.43,"text":"才不包括半成品"},{"start":11062.43,"end":11065.43,"text":"等我已經把聯名打到聯行總"},{"start":11065.43,"end":11067.43,"text":"你講不下去你已經放棄"},{"start":11067.43,"end":11069.43,"text":"護手產品兩個字"},{"start":11069.43,"end":11071.43,"text":"你現在在給我護手之魚兩個字"},{"start":11071.43,"end":11073.43,"text":"說這個是嚴格的標準"},{"start":11073.43,"end":11075.43,"text":"什麼貶貧比標準"},{"start":11075.43,"end":11078.43,"text":"豬兩個字有嚴格的標準嗎"},{"start":11078.43,"end":11080.43,"text":"到底看不看得懂法律啊"},{"start":11082.23,"end":11084.23,"text":"所以現在到底沒有通報是"},{"start":11084.23,"end":11085.23,"text":"出債產品兩個字"},{"start":11085.23,"end":11087.23,"text":"還是出債之魚兩個字"},{"start":11087.23,"end":11088.23,"text":"部長"},{"start":11087.99,"end":11089.99,"text":"要裁罰我們一定要依據"},{"start":11089.99,"end":11094.99,"text":"我們的依據貶貧比是定在食用油脂"},{"start":11096.17,"end":11098.17,"text":"第七條第五項"},{"start":11098.17,"end":11101.17,"text":"如果今天貶貧比是零減出"},{"start":11101.17,"end":11103.17,"text":"那麼大家都不要"},{"start":11103.17,"end":11107.17,"text":"但是我們訂的是食用油脂的貶貧比標準"},{"start":11107.17,"end":11108.17,"text":"你要不要再問他對"},{"start":11108.17,"end":11109.17,"text":"之魚兩個字的高見"},{"start":11109.17,"end":11111.17,"text":"請問一下衛福部什麼時候知情的"},{"start":11111.17,"end":11112.17,"text":"台糖的事件"},{"start":11113.33,"end":11114.33,"text":"我們是兩天前知情的"},{"start":11114.33,"end":11116.33,"text":"那衛福部什麼時候知情的"},{"start":11119.24,"end":11122.24,"text":"我們是專家進入我們署內的同仁"},{"start":11122.24,"end":11124.24,"text":"進去調查原因的時候"},{"start":11124.24,"end":11127.24,"text":"看到的報告裡面有看到7月15號"},{"start":11127.24,"end":11129.24,"text":"所以你們7月15號才知道"},{"start":11129.24,"end":11131.24,"text":"台糖這個事件"},{"start":11131.24,"end":11132.24,"text":"完全不知道這件事情"},{"start":11132.24,"end":11134.24,"text":"所以你們7月15號才知道台糖這個事件"},{"start":11134.24,"end":11136.24,"text":"來經濟部有請"},{"start":11136.24,"end":11138.24,"text":"請問一下你們什麼時候知道"},{"start":11138.24,"end":11139.24,"text":"這個台糖事件"},{"start":11145.07,"end":11147.07,"text":"好"},{"start":11147.35,"end":11149.35,"text":"好"},{"start":11148.52,"end":11150.52,"text":"跟委員說明在7月9號"},{"start":11150.52,"end":11153.52,"text":"高雄市政府採訪預防性下架的時候"},{"start":11153.52,"end":11156.52,"text":"我們就積極的去了解說"},{"start":11156.52,"end":11158.52,"text":"台糖的所有的產品裡面"},{"start":11158.52,"end":11161.52,"text":"有沒有危害的食品安全之一"},{"start":11161.52,"end":11163.52,"text":"所以你是7月9號才知道的嗎"},{"start":11163.52,"end":11165.52,"text":"所以你是7月9號才知道的"},{"start":11165.52,"end":11167.52,"text":"台糖公司有把這個事情"},{"start":11167.52,"end":11168.52,"text":"那時候火燒那麼大"},{"start":11168.52,"end":11170.52,"text":"你有沒有跟行政院長報告"},{"start":11171.15,"end":11173.15,"text":"不是 因為這個台糖的"},{"start":11173.15,"end":11175.15,"text":"我們去了解"},{"start":11175.15,"end":11178.15,"text":"台糖的所有的產品跟原料"},{"start":11178.15,"end":11180.15,"text":"都是合乎食安法的規定的"},{"start":11180.15,"end":11182.15,"text":"第二個"},{"start":11182.15,"end":11186.15,"text":"台糖所採購的所謂的出膠原有的部分"},{"start":11186.15,"end":11187.15,"text":"不允收的部分"},{"start":11187.15,"end":11190.15,"text":"始終是在台中的中聯廠裡面"},{"start":11190.15,"end":11193.15,"text":"並沒有到台糖的生產的供應鏈"},{"start":11193.15,"end":11194.15,"text":"那我現在問你"},{"start":11194.15,"end":11196.15,"text":"而台中地方法院"},{"start":11196.15,"end":11197.15,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":11197.15,"end":11199.15,"text":"它在新聞稿提到"},{"start":11199.15,"end":11202.15,"text":"沒關係 你說它退回給中聯"},{"start":11202.15,"end":11205.15,"text":"那中聯請問誰要通報"},{"start":11205.15,"end":11206.15,"text":"許甫主任"},{"start":11206.15,"end":11207.15,"text":"剛剛是說"},{"start":11207.15,"end":11209.15,"text":"是誰要通報"},{"start":11209.15,"end":11210.15,"text":"他們就是要通報"},{"start":11210.15,"end":11211.15,"text":"誰要通報"},{"start":11211.15,"end":11212.15,"text":"中聯"},{"start":11212.15,"end":11213.15,"text":"好 那我請問一下"},{"start":11213.15,"end":11214.15,"text":"許甫誰要通報"},{"start":11214.15,"end":11216.15,"text":"許甫主任誰要通報"},{"start":11216.67,"end":11219.67,"text":"這個貨物的主人是中聯的"},{"start":11219.67,"end":11222.67,"text":"所以是誰要通報"},{"start":11222.67,"end":11224.67,"text":"好 那這個只是脫膠原有"},{"start":11224.67,"end":11228.67,"text":"所以你們都覺得中聯要通報嗎 是嗎"},{"start":11228.67,"end":11230.67,"text":"如果你們覺得中聯要通報"},{"start":11230.67,"end":11233.67,"text":"請問法律依據在哪裡"},{"start":11233.67,"end":11235.67,"text":"因為它只是原料"},{"start":11235.67,"end":11236.67,"text":"它只是脫膠原有"},{"start":11236.67,"end":11238.67,"text":"請問要通報的依據是什麼"},{"start":11238.67,"end":11240.67,"text":"是七條第五項嗎"},{"start":11240.67,"end":11242.67,"text":"你們不是認為七條第五項"},{"start":11242.67,"end":11245.67,"text":"不能夠作為脫膠原有的通報依據"},{"start":11245.67,"end":11247.67,"text":"如果台壇不用通報"},{"start":11247.67,"end":11249.67,"text":"到了中聯就要通報"},{"start":11249.67,"end":11251.67,"text":"而中聯用的法條就是七條第五項"},{"start":11251.67,"end":11253.67,"text":"台壇因為七條第五項不能用"},{"start":11253.67,"end":11255.67,"text":"到了中聯就可以用"},{"start":11255.67,"end":11257.67,"text":"請問通報的法源依據在哪裡"},{"start":11257.67,"end":11259.67,"text":"好 我向委員說明"},{"start":11259.67,"end":11262.67,"text":"同樣在十七條是衛生標準"},{"start":11262.67,"end":11264.67,"text":"我剛有跟國防委員說明"},{"start":11264.67,"end":11267.67,"text":"生菌素所有生的肉跟魚都是"},{"start":11267.67,"end":11270.67,"text":"有危害安全值"},{"start":11270.67,"end":11273.67,"text":"魚之魚兩個字是非常寬鬆的"},{"start":11273.67,"end":11275.67,"text":"不要再跟我講嚴格的標準"},{"start":11275.67,"end":11277.67,"text":"本皮的標準"},{"start":11277.67,"end":11280.67,"text":"就所有的 你要看樣態"},{"start":11280.67,"end":11282.67,"text":"看原料屬於哪裡"},{"start":11282.67,"end":11283.67,"text":"樣態就是台壇"},{"start":11283.67,"end":11285.67,"text":"台壇的樣態就是不用通報"},{"start":11285.67,"end":11287.67,"text":"樣態就是中聯"},{"start":11287.67,"end":11288.67,"text":"中聯就是要通報"},{"start":11288.67,"end":11290.67,"text":"這就是你們的樣態"},{"start":11290.67,"end":11293.67,"text":"所以你們的抗片已經從產品"},{"start":11293.67,"end":11295.67,"text":"現在已經發展到之魚兩個字了"},{"start":11295.67,"end":11298.67,"text":"好 那請問一下行政院長"},{"start":11298.67,"end":11300.67,"text":"為什麼在專案報告的時候"},{"start":11300.67,"end":11303.67,"text":"我會理解我們吃的豬排"},{"start":11303.67,"end":11304.67,"text":"它含有生菌"},{"start":11305.89,"end":11307.89,"text":"所以生菌要不要來通報"},{"start":11307.89,"end":11308.89,"text":"不用"},{"start":11308.89,"end":11311.89,"text":"因為它最終的產品是做成炸豬排"},{"start":11311.89,"end":11313.89,"text":"它會把生菌消除掉"},{"start":11313.89,"end":11315.89,"text":"生菌是什麼 細菌嗎"},{"start":11315.89,"end":11317.89,"text":"細菌 肉裡面有細菌"},{"start":11317.89,"end":11319.89,"text":"那個是添加的細菌"},{"start":11319.89,"end":11321.89,"text":"你不要在那邊跟我胡扯"},{"start":11321.89,"end":11324.89,"text":"你跟我胡扯 跟我胡扯你的阿公"},{"start":11324.89,"end":11326.89,"text":"在你的耳裡聽起來很怪"},{"start":11326.89,"end":11328.89,"text":"在我的耳裡聽起來很怪"},{"start":11328.89,"end":11331.89,"text":"你不要再跟我扯細菌"},{"start":11331.89,"end":11333.89,"text":"我現在講的是半成品"},{"start":11333.89,"end":11334.89,"text":"是屬於食品的一環"},{"start":11334.89,"end":11336.89,"text":"你不要跟我扯東扯西"},{"start":11336.89,"end":11339.89,"text":"因為我覺得你的邏輯我才不懂"},{"start":11339.89,"end":11342.89,"text":"你的邏輯我才不懂得一塌糊塗好嗎"},{"start":11342.89,"end":11344.89,"text":"來 行政院長請問一下"},{"start":11344.89,"end":11345.89,"text":"他在食安匯報"},{"start":11345.89,"end":11347.89,"text":"怎麼沒有提到台糖這件事"},{"start":11349.08,"end":11350.08,"text":"你們有跟他報告嗎"},{"start":11350.08,"end":11352.08,"text":"你一個說7月9號知情"},{"start":11352.08,"end":11353.08,"text":"一個說7月15號知情"},{"start":11353.08,"end":11354.08,"text":"請問一下院長"},{"start":11354.08,"end":11358.08,"text":"你們完全都沒有跟行政院長報告過這件事嗎"},{"start":11358.08,"end":11362.08,"text":"我們院大概就是署長"},{"start":11363.3,"end":11364.3,"text":"所以"},{"start":11364.3,"end":11366.3,"text":"所提到的就是從反正現在大概是9號"},{"start":11366.3,"end":11368.3,"text":"然後15號進場去看到"},{"start":11368.3,"end":11369.3,"text":"我知道啦"},{"start":11369.3,"end":11371.3,"text":"但你們請問一下衛福部這邊"},{"start":11371.3,"end":11372.3,"text":"有沒有跟行政院長報告"},{"start":11373.8,"end":11374.8,"text":"石部長"},{"start":11374.8,"end":11376.8,"text":"你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事"},{"start":11376.8,"end":11379.8,"text":"台糖的是經濟部所屬的台糖國營事業"},{"start":11380.14,"end":11382.14,"text":"這個都是在7月1號"},{"start":11382.14,"end":11383.14,"text":"我們已經"},{"start":11383.14,"end":11385.14,"text":"不是啦 你就說有跟沒有就好了"},{"start":11385.14,"end":11387.14,"text":"不要打飛水彈時間很寶貴"},{"start":11387.14,"end":11389.14,"text":"我後面還沒做這個"},{"start":11389.14,"end":11392.14,"text":"這個已經在7月1號以後都已經停工了"},{"start":11392.14,"end":11394.14,"text":"所以這個脫交原由"},{"start":11394.14,"end":11396.14,"text":"他也沒有去執照啦"},{"start":11396.14,"end":11397.14,"text":"你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事"},{"start":11397.14,"end":11398.14,"text":"你先回答再來經濟部回答"},{"start":11398.14,"end":11401.14,"text":"你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事"},{"start":11401.51,"end":11402.51,"text":"7月15號知道"},{"start":11402.51,"end":11404.51,"text":"有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事"},{"start":11404.51,"end":11405.51,"text":"所以行政院長跟我們一樣"},{"start":11405.51,"end":11407.51,"text":"是兩天前才知道的嗎"},{"start":11407.51,"end":11409.51,"text":"我們最後一定會報告的嘛"},{"start":11409.51,"end":11411.51,"text":"這個日期有那麼難以啟齒嗎"},{"start":11412.81,"end":11414.81,"text":"日期我要確認"},{"start":11414.81,"end":11417.81,"text":"因為我經常在跟院長報告很多事情"},{"start":11417.81,"end":11419.81,"text":"那你什麼時候能夠跟我們確認"},{"start":11421.15,"end":11423.15,"text":"我要看看我能不能想得起來"},{"start":11424.41,"end":11428.41,"text":"所以你就這麼不把你跟行政院長的會面上心嗎"},{"start":11428.41,"end":11430.41,"text":"居然還要看你想不想得起來"},{"start":11430.41,"end":11433.41,"text":"不能夠因為他沒有關心你眼睛中的血絲"},{"start":11433.41,"end":11435.41,"text":"你就這樣子忽略院長啊"},{"start":11436.52,"end":11437.52,"text":"我們有報告啊"},{"start":11437.52,"end":11439.52,"text":"但是你一定要我幾月幾號"},{"start":11439.52,"end":11440.52,"text":"反正你就是講不出來"},{"start":11440.52,"end":11442.52,"text":"你不是我幾月幾號我就要想"},{"start":11442.52,"end":11443.52,"text":"我知道你要想"},{"start":11443.52,"end":11444.52,"text":"但你又說你有可能想不起來"},{"start":11444.52,"end":11446.52,"text":"我想說長官跟長官見面"},{"start":11446.52,"end":11447.52,"text":"我們都很珍惜這樣的機會"},{"start":11447.52,"end":11448.52,"text":"結果你居然想不起來"},{"start":11448.52,"end":11451.52,"text":"來經濟部長什麼時候跟行政院長報告的"},{"start":11453.41,"end":11456.41,"text":"7月9號我們接獲台南公司"},{"start":11457.21,"end":11461.21,"text":"通報他被高雄市政府預防性下架之後"},{"start":11462.04,"end":11468.04,"text":"我們的國營師就請台南公司必須要配合地方主管機關"},{"start":11468.04,"end":11469.04,"text":"跟行政院長不要講那麼多"},{"start":11469.04,"end":11471.04,"text":"因為我快要收尾了好不好"},{"start":11471.04,"end":11473.04,"text":"我也不想到後面的人等很久"},{"start":11473.04,"end":11474.04,"text":"我跟委員講的就是事實"},{"start":11474.04,"end":11476.04,"text":"什麼時候跟行政院長"},{"start":11476.04,"end":11479.04,"text":"因為我還沒聽到行政院長這四個關鍵字"},{"start":11479.04,"end":11481.04,"text":"什麼時候跟行政院長報告的"},{"start":11481.04,"end":11484.04,"text":"因為台南公司依照他契約所辦理的一個事項"},{"start":11484.04,"end":11487.04,"text":"他平常都不需要跟經濟部來做報告"},{"start":11487.04,"end":11489.04,"text":"不是啦你知情之後"},{"start":11489.04,"end":11492.04,"text":"你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事"},{"start":11492.04,"end":11493.04,"text":"有還是沒有"},{"start":11494.81,"end":11496.81,"text":"所以你們沒有跟行政院長報告嗎"},{"start":11496.81,"end":11499.81,"text":"吳相石部長沒有跟行政院長報告嗎"},{"start":11499.81,"end":11500.81,"text":"沒有嗎"},{"start":11501.52,"end":11505.52,"text":"所以行政院長只是從梁部長去報告的"},{"start":11506.83,"end":11508.83,"text":"你們沒有跟行政院長報告"},{"start":11508.83,"end":11510.83,"text":"台南公司會配合他這個"},{"start":11510.83,"end":11514.83,"text":"除了專案跟地方專案的清查的一個作業"},{"start":11514.83,"end":11516.83,"text":"不是你們到底有沒有跟行政院長報告"},{"start":11516.83,"end":11517.83,"text":"第一是沒有"},{"start":11517.83,"end":11519.83,"text":"那檢查的結果當然是我們"},{"start":11519.83,"end":11522.83,"text":"中央主管機關或是地方主管機關都會知道"},{"start":11523.38,"end":11525.38,"text":"不是啦我不是中央主管機關"},{"start":11525.38,"end":11526.38,"text":"我在問行政院長"},{"start":11526.38,"end":11528.38,"text":"他也是中央主管機關"},{"start":11528.38,"end":11530.38,"text":"我在問院長知不知道這件事"},{"start":11530.38,"end":11532.38,"text":"你們經濟部有沒有跟他報告"},{"start":11532.38,"end":11535.38,"text":"畢竟台南是國營事業"},{"start":11536.47,"end":11538.47,"text":"你們有沒有跟院長報告嗎"},{"start":11538.47,"end":11539.47,"text":"這能難回答嗎"},{"start":11540.17,"end":11543.17,"text":"跟委員說明台糖生產的產品"},{"start":11543.17,"end":11545.17,"text":"譬如說大豆沙"},{"start":11545.17,"end":11546.17,"text":"簡答題你們有沒有跟院長報告"},{"start":11546.17,"end":11547.17,"text":"一句話經濟部有沒有跟"},{"start":11547.17,"end":11549.17,"text":"需要依照食安法的規定"},{"start":11549.17,"end":11551.17,"text":"你們有沒有跟行政院長報告"},{"start":11551.17,"end":11554.17,"text":"這個就是台南公司的責任"},{"start":11554.17,"end":11556.17,"text":"所以你們沒有跟行政院長報告嗎"},{"start":11556.17,"end":11558.17,"text":"是嗎你們沒有跟行政院長報告是嗎"},{"start":11558.17,"end":11559.17,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":11559.17,"end":11560.17,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":11560.17,"end":11561.17,"text":"沒有報告嗎"},{"start":11561.17,"end":11562.17,"text":"就是沒有報告是嗎"},{"start":11563.47,"end":11564.47,"text":"聽起來就是沒有報告是嗎"},{"start":11565.41,"end":11567.41,"text":"這個在我知道的部分"},{"start":11567.41,"end":11569.41,"text":"我也沒有參加過院長的會議"},{"start":11569.41,"end":11571.41,"text":"所以我沒有跟院長報告"},{"start":11571.41,"end":11572.41,"text":"你就講經濟部沒有報告就好啦"},{"start":11572.41,"end":11573.41,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":11573.41,"end":11575.41,"text":"好那經濟部沒有報告嘛"},{"start":11575.41,"end":11576.41,"text":"是這樣嘛"},{"start":11576.41,"end":11577.41,"text":"好OK"},{"start":11577.41,"end":11578.41,"text":"好來請問一下"},{"start":11578.41,"end":11580.41,"text":"來部長我請問一下"},{"start":11580.41,"end":11582.41,"text":"這一批獨有1300公噸"},{"start":11582.41,"end":11583.41,"text":"4月初或5月驗出"},{"start":11583.41,"end":11585.41,"text":"7月初才封存"},{"start":11585.41,"end":11586.41,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":11586.41,"end":11589.41,"text":"你們在7月17公布這些"},{"start":11589.41,"end":11592.41,"text":"4月到6月中聯所這個流出的這些"},{"start":11592.41,"end":11594.41,"text":"有請問有公布批號嗎"},{"start":11594.41,"end":11595.41,"text":"他在這些批號"},{"start":11595.41,"end":11597.41,"text":"你們公布了30個批號"},{"start":11597.41,"end":11598.41,"text":"在哪個批號之內"},{"start":11598.41,"end":11600.41,"text":"他沒有做成實用油紙"},{"start":11600.41,"end":11601.41,"text":"所以沒有批號"},{"start":11601.41,"end":11602.41,"text":"不是出貨啊"},{"start":11602.41,"end":11603.41,"text":"他不是出貨嗎"},{"start":11603.41,"end":11604.41,"text":"他沒有出貨啊"},{"start":11606.22,"end":11607.22,"text":"他沒有出貨"},{"start":11607.22,"end":11608.22,"text":"他就在中聯裡面"},{"start":11608.22,"end":11609.22,"text":"沒有出貨"},{"start":11609.22,"end":11610.22,"text":"他還在槽裡面"},{"start":11610.22,"end":11612.22,"text":"連金鏈都還沒有做啊"},{"start":11612.22,"end":11614.22,"text":"所以他沒有批號啊"},{"start":11614.22,"end":11616.22,"text":"所以今天台糖"},{"start":11616.22,"end":11618.22,"text":"是去他的油槽取樣本"},{"start":11618.22,"end":11620.22,"text":"他去油槽裡面"},{"start":11620.22,"end":11622.22,"text":"把他封了之後取樣本"},{"start":11622.22,"end":11623.22,"text":"然後驗了之後呢"},{"start":11623.22,"end":11626.22,"text":"他超出他的這個驗收標準"},{"start":11626.22,"end":11627.22,"text":"他就不驗收啦"},{"start":11627.22,"end":11628.22,"text":"他不驗收啦"},{"start":11628.22,"end":11630.22,"text":"但是台糖扎扎實實"},{"start":11630.22,"end":11634.22,"text":"有所掌握14.7這個數字嘛"},{"start":11634.22,"end":11635.22,"text":"那食品業者"},{"start":11635.22,"end":11637.22,"text":"如果多於半成品的"},{"start":11637.22,"end":11639.22,"text":"這個安全有違一律之虞"},{"start":11639.22,"end":11641.22,"text":"他就要這個通報"},{"start":11641.22,"end":11642.22,"text":"當地的主管機關"},{"start":11642.22,"end":11645.22,"text":"顯然台糖他就是沒有通報"},{"start":11645.22,"end":11647.22,"text":"或雖然沒有到他這邊"},{"start":11647.22,"end":11649.22,"text":"但是他已經是到處去了"},{"start":11649.22,"end":11651.22,"text":"通報的義務是他有沒有超出我們的標準"},{"start":11651.22,"end":11652.22,"text":"啊你們的標準"},{"start":11652.22,"end":11653.22,"text":"啊法條就有之虞"},{"start":11653.22,"end":11655.22,"text":"奇怪你們為什麼要超越法律呢"},{"start":11655.22,"end":11658.22,"text":"你比法大法官還厲害耶"},{"start":11658.22,"end":11659.22,"text":"你不只解釋法律"},{"start":11659.22,"end":11660.22,"text":"你還超越法律"},{"start":11660.22,"end":11662.22,"text":"食品安全衛生法第七條"},{"start":11662.22,"end":11663.22,"text":"已經說有危害健康"},{"start":11663.22,"end":11665.22,"text":"有危害衛生有危害安全之虞"},{"start":11665.22,"end":11666.22,"text":"至於兩個字"},{"start":11666.22,"end":11668.22,"text":"有那麼難讀懂嗎"},{"start":11668.22,"end":11669.22,"text":"對耶"},{"start":11669.22,"end":11671.22,"text":"你在一個炸豬排的工廠"},{"start":11671.22,"end":11673.22,"text":"看到有塊生肉"},{"start":11673.22,"end":11674.22,"text":"他有細緻的"},{"start":11674.22,"end":11676.22,"text":"你不要跟我談豬排"},{"start":11676.22,"end":11678.22,"text":"豬排根本完全不能夠類比"},{"start":11678.22,"end":11680.22,"text":"如果你覺得你的阿東"},{"start":11680.22,"end":11681.22,"text":"在這邊不適合被請出來"},{"start":11681.22,"end":11684.22,"text":"你的豬排也不適合在這邊請出來"},{"start":11684.22,"end":11686.22,"text":"那我現在跟這個部長講一句"},{"start":11686.22,"end":11687.22,"text":"人民怒吼"},{"start":11687.22,"end":11689.22,"text":"這是725的事情"},{"start":11689.22,"end":11691.22,"text":"如果你們繼續荒腔走板"},{"start":11691.22,"end":11692.22,"text":"可能不是人民怒吼"},{"start":11692.22,"end":11694.22,"text":"我覺得可能就是人民包動了"},{"start":11694.22,"end":11696.22,"text":"那部長我還是要跟你講"},{"start":11696.22,"end":11698.22,"text":"我最後要做一個總結"},{"start":11699.1,"end":11701.1,"text":"他們一直說"},{"start":11701.1,"end":11702.1,"text":"七條第五項的產品"},{"start":11702.1,"end":11704.1,"text":"不包括半成品"},{"start":11704.1,"end":11706.1,"text":"所以呢半成品不是石油"},{"start":11706.1,"end":11709.1,"text":"所以不需要根據第七條第五項來"},{"start":11709.1,"end":11710.1,"text":"這個通報"},{"start":11710.1,"end":11711.1,"text":"那現在呢"},{"start":11711.1,"end":11713.1,"text":"其實不管是從文藝解釋"},{"start":11713.1,"end":11715.1,"text":"目的性解釋"},{"start":11715.1,"end":11716.1,"text":"體系解釋"},{"start":11716.1,"end":11718.1,"text":"你們自己去看食安法"},{"start":11718.1,"end":11720.1,"text":"食安法產品跟食品兩個字"},{"start":11720.1,"end":11722.1,"text":"是完全混用的"},{"start":11722.1,"end":11723.1,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":11723.1,"end":11724.1,"text":"請不要再拿"},{"start":11724.1,"end":11726.1,"text":"七條第五項的產品"},{"start":11726.1,"end":11728.1,"text":"不包括半成品來做擋箭牌"},{"start":11728.1,"end":11729.1,"text":"擋不住之後"},{"start":11729.1,"end":11732.1,"text":"請不要從之於兩個字上下提手"},{"start":11732.1,"end":11734.1,"text":"之於兩個字代表的就是"},{"start":11734.1,"end":11735.1,"text":"不用嚴格的標準"},{"start":11735.1,"end":11737.1,"text":"所以不要在那邊提什麼"},{"start":11737.1,"end":11738.1,"text":"本扁皮怎樣"},{"start":11738.1,"end":11740.1,"text":"請不要用這個當擋箭牌"},{"start":11740.1,"end":11741.1,"text":"跟遮羞布"},{"start":11741.1,"end":11742.1,"text":"以上說明謝謝"},{"start":11745.1,"end":11747.1,"text":"謝謝邱會議委員的諮詢"},{"start":11747.1,"end":11749.1,"text":"接下來請邱政軍委員諮詢"},{"start":11774.31,"end":11775.31,"text":"主席好"},{"start":11775.31,"end":11777.31,"text":"我們請食部長"},{"start":11782.09,"end":11783.09,"text":"邱會議員好"},{"start":11783.09,"end":11784.09,"text":"部長好啊"},{"start":11784.62,"end":11785.62,"text":"我想現在媒體"},{"start":11785.62,"end":11787.62,"text":"爆料中這個"},{"start":11787.62,"end":11789.62,"text":"檢調查中聯案的過程裡面"},{"start":11789.62,"end":11792.62,"text":"在Code手機通訊內發現"},{"start":11792.62,"end":11794.62,"text":"有員工在4月份的時候"},{"start":11794.62,"end":11796.62,"text":"就已經回報大豆年年的"},{"start":11796.62,"end":11797.62,"text":"怪怪的"},{"start":11797.62,"end":11799.62,"text":"懷疑可以出貨嗎"},{"start":11799.62,"end":11801.62,"text":"那這部分很明顯就是原料的問題"},{"start":11801.62,"end":11803.62,"text":"你們是不是早就知道"},{"start":11803.62,"end":11804.62,"text":"所以一直迴避"},{"start":11804.62,"end":11806.62,"text":"其他遊場購買的數量"},{"start":11806.62,"end":11808.62,"text":"是害怕牽連太廣嗎"},{"start":11809.98,"end":11810.98,"text":"一直沒有公布完"},{"start":11811.54,"end":11812.54,"text":"不會啊"},{"start":11812.54,"end":11814.54,"text":"我們都有掌握他這個每一個頻道"},{"start":11814.54,"end":11815.54,"text":"所以你們也調查完了對嗎"},{"start":11815.54,"end":11816.54,"text":"對"},{"start":11816.54,"end":11817.54,"text":"那手上也有完整資料嘛"},{"start":11817.54,"end":11818.54,"text":"對"},{"start":11818.54,"end":11820.54,"text":"那為什麼我要的數據到現在還不給我"},{"start":11820.54,"end":11822.54,"text":"有我已經批了一定會給委員"},{"start":11822.54,"end":11823.54,"text":"到現在還沒看到啊"},{"start":11823.54,"end":11825.54,"text":"奇怪我已經看到說"},{"start":11825.54,"end":11827.54,"text":"要供給委員的資料"},{"start":11827.54,"end":11828.54,"text":"還是你們現在資料都有帶嘛"},{"start":11829.32,"end":11831.32,"text":"不然你們先來寫一寫好不好"},{"start":11831.32,"end":11832.32,"text":"好"},{"start":11832.32,"end":11833.32,"text":"你待會就給我"},{"start":11833.32,"end":11834.32,"text":"我們直通完就給我"},{"start":11834.32,"end":11835.32,"text":"好"},{"start":11835.32,"end":11836.32,"text":"待會就給委員"},{"start":11836.32,"end":11837.32,"text":"已經送過去了"},{"start":11839.01,"end":11840.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11844.02,"end":11845.02,"text":"你那個處理一下"},{"start":11846.13,"end":11848.13,"text":"不然我再請教你啊"},{"start":11849.69,"end":11853.69,"text":"你們放在官網上的新聞稿的內容"},{"start":11853.69,"end":11854.69,"text":"真實度有多少"},{"start":11856.54,"end":11857.54,"text":"你說是"},{"start":11858.55,"end":11861.55,"text":"就是專家會議跟公協會的會議"},{"start":11862.4,"end":11863.4,"text":"公協會跟"},{"start":11863.4,"end":11865.4,"text":"是你指的是7月4號的嗎"},{"start":11865.4,"end":11866.4,"text":"對7月4號"},{"start":11866.4,"end":11867.4,"text":"7月4號的我們下午"},{"start":11867.4,"end":11868.4,"text":"有兩場嘛"},{"start":11868.4,"end":11869.4,"text":"對啊"},{"start":11870.13,"end":11871.13,"text":"我們就會來"},{"start":11871.13,"end":11872.13,"text":"你不講是專家來講"},{"start":11874.07,"end":11875.07,"text":"我沒有出場"},{"start":11875.07,"end":11877.07,"text":"那署長呢你參加哪一場"},{"start":11877.07,"end":11878.07,"text":"我兩場都有參加"},{"start":11878.07,"end":11879.07,"text":"因為是我的"},{"start":11879.07,"end":11881.07,"text":"行政院誰去啊"},{"start":11883.1,"end":11884.1,"text":"拍誰去"},{"start":11886.8,"end":11887.8,"text":"那去哪一場"},{"start":11887.8,"end":11889.8,"text":"我是去專家的那一場"},{"start":11889.8,"end":11890.8,"text":"專家的啊"},{"start":11890.8,"end":11891.8,"text":"那兩場的主席是誰"},{"start":11891.8,"end":11892.8,"text":"誰記錄"},{"start":11893.82,"end":11894.82,"text":"主席是我"},{"start":11894.82,"end":11895.82,"text":"然後兩場的"},{"start":11895.82,"end":11897.82,"text":"兩場主席都是你"},{"start":11897.82,"end":11898.82,"text":"對兩場主席是我"},{"start":11898.82,"end":11900.82,"text":"那食安辦誰去啊"},{"start":11903.52,"end":11904.52,"text":"你去是吧"},{"start":11904.52,"end":11905.52,"text":"我對"},{"start":11905.52,"end":11906.52,"text":"許甫去的是"},{"start":11906.52,"end":11907.52,"text":"你們的新聞稿"},{"start":11907.52,"end":11909.52,"text":"這個專家會議這一場"},{"start":11909.52,"end":11910.52,"text":"就是兩個方向"},{"start":11910.52,"end":11912.52,"text":"一個是釐清可能的污染原因"},{"start":11912.52,"end":11914.52,"text":"還有未來怎麼在避免"},{"start":11914.52,"end":11916.52,"text":"再發生管制的"},{"start":11916.52,"end":11917.52,"text":"管理的機制嘛"},{"start":11917.52,"end":11919.52,"text":"剛剛你們說的新聞稿內容"},{"start":11919.52,"end":11920.52,"text":"都是真實的"},{"start":11920.52,"end":11921.52,"text":"那就表示專家會議"},{"start":11921.52,"end":11923.52,"text":"沒有討論20%的部分"},{"start":11923.52,"end":11924.52,"text":"對不對"},{"start":11925.64,"end":11926.64,"text":"有啊"},{"start":11926.64,"end":11928.64,"text":"剛才都已經有做完整的說明了"},{"start":11928.64,"end":11929.64,"text":"什麼時候"},{"start":11929.64,"end":11930.64,"text":"分為兩個部分"},{"start":11930.64,"end":11932.64,"text":"因為之前沒有特別的"},{"start":11932.64,"end":11933.64,"text":"有機會跟大家公開"},{"start":11933.64,"end":11935.64,"text":"因為今天也做了說明"},{"start":11935.64,"end":11936.64,"text":"所以第一個是"},{"start":11936.64,"end":11939.64,"text":"中聯一開始的7月4號"},{"start":11939.64,"end":11941.64,"text":"那個瞬間其實只有一批"},{"start":11941.64,"end":11942.64,"text":"原因不清楚"},{"start":11942.64,"end":11943.64,"text":"所以是你拍板嗎"},{"start":11943.64,"end":11944.64,"text":"是專家拍板"},{"start":11944.64,"end":11947.64,"text":"接下來呢是專家會議裡面的"},{"start":11947.64,"end":11948.64,"text":"第二個議題是"},{"start":11948.64,"end":11949.64,"text":"因為我們用"},{"start":11950.64,"end":11951.64,"text":"下架的一個標準"},{"start":11952.53,"end":11954.53,"text":"2 ppb這麼嚴格的油脂的"},{"start":11954.53,"end":11956.53,"text":"我們歐盟韓國都是"},{"start":11956.53,"end":11958.53,"text":"所以韓國跟歐盟呢"},{"start":11958.53,"end":11960.53,"text":"針對這個油品違規的時候"},{"start":11960.53,"end":11962.53,"text":"也是下架到第一層"},{"start":11962.53,"end":11964.53,"text":"針對第二層是否要下架"},{"start":11964.53,"end":11965.53,"text":"判斷的基準"},{"start":11965.53,"end":11967.53,"text":"其實跟我們面對的這個"},{"start":11967.53,"end":11970.53,"text":"扁平皮8.1 ppb的標準是一致的"},{"start":11970.53,"end":11972.53,"text":"所以底下的產品是什麼樣子"},{"start":11972.53,"end":11974.53,"text":"所以才會出現20%"},{"start":11974.53,"end":11975.53,"text":"所以那一場20%是"},{"start":11975.53,"end":11976.53,"text":"是你們專家這一場還是"},{"start":11976.53,"end":11978.53,"text":"在專家會議這場裡面"},{"start":11978.53,"end":11979.53,"text":"針對這個內容"},{"start":11979.53,"end":11981.53,"text":"做了非常完整的討論之後"},{"start":11981.53,"end":11983.53,"text":"因為第一層下架之後"},{"start":11983.53,"end":11986.53,"text":"有沒有可能會沒有涵蓋到"},{"start":11986.53,"end":11989.53,"text":"超過我們所謂的2 ppb的一個概念"},{"start":11989.53,"end":11991.53,"text":"所以大家開始在討論的時候"},{"start":11991.53,"end":11994.53,"text":"許多專家提到的確在2 ppb裡面"},{"start":11994.53,"end":11996.53,"text":"如果用的油脂的反應是"},{"start":11996.53,"end":11997.53,"text":"超過20%"},{"start":11997.53,"end":11998.53,"text":"市長主你"},{"start":11998.53,"end":11999.53,"text":"你邀請了"},{"start":11999.53,"end":12002.53,"text":"14個食品產業相關公會的這一場"},{"start":12002.53,"end":12005.53,"text":"新聞稿說召開這場的會議"},{"start":12005.53,"end":12007.53,"text":"是為了降低事件對消費者"},{"start":12007.53,"end":12009.53,"text":"及下游業者的影響"},{"start":12009.53,"end":12012.53,"text":"那你們邀請了14個食品產業公會"},{"start":12012.53,"end":12013.53,"text":"對吧"},{"start":12013.53,"end":12015.53,"text":"代表下游業者"},{"start":12015.53,"end":12017.53,"text":"跟委員說報告一下這件事情"},{"start":12017.53,"end":12019.53,"text":"是不是你不要講那麼複雜是不是"},{"start":12019.53,"end":12022.53,"text":"我說這個這麼14個產業裡面"},{"start":12022.53,"end":12024.53,"text":"相對都食品相關產業"},{"start":12024.53,"end":12026.53,"text":"我們先對的油品事件裡面"},{"start":12026.53,"end":12028.53,"text":"一定會對產業衝擊"},{"start":12028.53,"end":12031.53,"text":"我們說明我們現在第一層下架"},{"start":12031.53,"end":12033.53,"text":"以及剛才講20%可能會成為"},{"start":12033.53,"end":12035.53,"text":"我們建議部的"},{"start":12035.53,"end":12037.53,"text":"你先我不是要問你這個"},{"start":12037.53,"end":12038.53,"text":"你不要亂講"},{"start":12038.53,"end":12040.53,"text":"我現在問你你回答就好"},{"start":12040.53,"end":12043.53,"text":"那代表下游業者請問代表消費者的是誰"},{"start":12043.53,"end":12044.53,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":12046.32,"end":12047.32,"text":"有"},{"start":12047.25,"end":12050.25,"text":"我要把14個公協會確定一下"},{"start":12050.25,"end":12053.25,"text":"這個公協會來嘛"},{"start":12053.25,"end":12054.25,"text":"那這些都是"},{"start":12054.25,"end":12056.25,"text":"這是食品公會啊"},{"start":12056.25,"end":12058.25,"text":"對不對那代表消費者是誰"},{"start":12058.25,"end":12059.25,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":12059.55,"end":12061.55,"text":"我這邊要回去再確認一下"},{"start":12061.55,"end":12063.55,"text":"可能消費者的溝通我們可能"},{"start":12063.55,"end":12064.55,"text":"我來問你好了啦"},{"start":12064.55,"end":12065.55,"text":"一個一個問啦"},{"start":12068.41,"end":12074.41,"text":"這個台灣植物油漬電工業同業公會有去嗎"},{"start":12074.41,"end":12076.41,"text":"我預想中是有的"},{"start":12076.41,"end":12078.41,"text":"好勾起來喔"},{"start":12078.41,"end":12081.41,"text":"那台灣烘培油紙工業同業公會有去嗎"},{"start":12081.41,"end":12084.41,"text":"我這邊可不可以請我們同仁們來14個"},{"start":12084.41,"end":12086.41,"text":"待會唸給委員們聽一下"},{"start":12086.41,"end":12088.41,"text":"我講確定一下那個整個14個"},{"start":12088.41,"end":12090.41,"text":"好啦我這邊勾一勾啦"},{"start":12090.41,"end":12092.41,"text":"我這邊有資料"},{"start":12092.41,"end":12094.41,"text":"請募拿過去再勾一下"},{"start":12094.88,"end":12096.88,"text":"我繼續問啦他們勾他們的"},{"start":12098.31,"end":12100.31,"text":"那你現在我跟你講喔"},{"start":12100.31,"end":12104.31,"text":"就是說你們把這個公協會找去"},{"start":12104.31,"end":12106.31,"text":"消費者又把它放一邊"},{"start":12106.31,"end":12109.31,"text":"那這些公會他們是討論他們是"},{"start":12109.31,"end":12113.31,"text":"讓業者的損失怎麼樣降到最低是嗎"},{"start":12113.31,"end":12114.31,"text":"不是這個"},{"start":12114.31,"end":12117.31,"text":"還是把消費者當作白老鼠"},{"start":12117.31,"end":12119.31,"text":"反正他們幾家14家去決定"},{"start":12119.31,"end":12121.31,"text":"你有問過消費者嗎"},{"start":12121.31,"end":12125.31,"text":"對對這是專家會議之後的來開的"},{"start":12125.31,"end":12127.31,"text":"因為會對產業的衝擊他們必須"},{"start":12127.31,"end":12130.31,"text":"要去做因應第一橫他要配合"},{"start":12130.31,"end":12131.31,"text":"所以這個階段裡面"},{"start":12131.31,"end":12134.31,"text":"如果當天會議室裡面只有業者代表"},{"start":12134.31,"end":12136.31,"text":"沒有半個消費者代表"},{"start":12136.31,"end":12138.31,"text":"我們院長最後拍板的20%門檻"},{"start":12138.31,"end":12140.31,"text":"到底平衡了誰的意見"},{"start":12140.31,"end":12142.31,"text":"你拍板的啊那你平衡了誰的意見"},{"start":12142.31,"end":12146.31,"text":"我想這個20%在決策的過程中"},{"start":12146.31,"end":12149.31,"text":"其實做了非常完整的科學上面的分析"},{"start":12149.31,"end":12151.31,"text":"跟推論跟技術上面的一個討論"},{"start":12151.31,"end":12154.31,"text":"確定這樣子對民眾的健康"},{"start":12154.31,"end":12156.31,"text":"可以得到實質的保障"},{"start":12156.31,"end":12158.31,"text":"這個工協會議討論的結論是什麼"},{"start":12159.38,"end":12161.38,"text":"實質的工協會裡面我們只說"},{"start":12161.38,"end":12165.38,"text":"我們對於低層下架對產業裡面可能的影響"},{"start":12165.38,"end":12168.38,"text":"你們要回去因應去了解可能有品的使用"},{"start":12168.38,"end":12171.38,"text":"會有遇到什麼問題需要大家能夠配合"},{"start":12171.38,"end":12175.38,"text":"避免現在有違規的有品造成民眾"},{"start":12175.38,"end":12177.38,"text":"持續加重他們的受傷"},{"start":12177.38,"end":12180.38,"text":"所以我們就是提到了現在8.1PPP"},{"start":12180.38,"end":12183.38,"text":"這一批的緣由我們確定在這裡"},{"start":12183.38,"end":12186.38,"text":"是中年產生4月4號的這一批"},{"start":12186.38,"end":12190.38,"text":"我先不講我現在就講說你這些業者"},{"start":12190.38,"end":12192.38,"text":"去誰代表消費者"},{"start":12192.38,"end":12193.38,"text":"有沒有嘛"},{"start":12193.38,"end":12194.38,"text":"有沒有啦"},{"start":12194.38,"end":12197.38,"text":"有沒有人代表消費者去開會"},{"start":12197.38,"end":12200.38,"text":"我說業者同時都是每個都是消費者"},{"start":12200.38,"end":12202.38,"text":"彼此之間都是"},{"start":12202.38,"end":12204.38,"text":"所以我這邊特別提到講什麼話"},{"start":12204.38,"end":12206.38,"text":"他們業者全部都是消費者"},{"start":12206.38,"end":12208.38,"text":"我說每個人都是消費者"},{"start":12208.38,"end":12210.38,"text":"我針對的是他們就是成員兼排班"},{"start":12210.38,"end":12211.38,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":12211.38,"end":12214.38,"text":"他們決定的事情可以做嗎"},{"start":12214.95,"end":12216.95,"text":"你們把消費者放在哪邊"},{"start":12217.56,"end":12221.56,"text":"就幾個幾個業者來決定說我們民眾的健康"},{"start":12221.56,"end":12222.56,"text":"他們沒有決定"},{"start":12222.56,"end":12224.56,"text":"這我們誤會了這沒有決定"},{"start":12224.56,"end":12225.56,"text":"那你就要來開會"},{"start":12225.56,"end":12226.56,"text":"這是另外一件事情"},{"start":12226.56,"end":12230.56,"text":"你是開什麼去幫業者減少這個增加營收減少損失嗎"},{"start":12231.37,"end":12232.37,"text":"跟委員補充"},{"start":12232.37,"end":12235.37,"text":"那其實他這個會議是在專家會議之後"},{"start":12235.37,"end":12239.37,"text":"所以是把專家會議的所做出來的下架的決議"},{"start":12239.37,"end":12245.37,"text":"如果沒有消費者就是能夠全國人民的安全健康去跟業者做交換"},{"start":12247.11,"end":12250.11,"text":"這個會議是在專家會議之後"},{"start":12250.11,"end":12253.11,"text":"然後把專家會議的決議的這個事情"},{"start":12253.11,"end":12255.11,"text":"來跟業者請他們回去配合"},{"start":12256.46,"end":12258.46,"text":"這是要業者回去配合"},{"start":12258.46,"end":12266.46,"text":"你們到底什麼時候知道中原油脂的311跟301脫膠油槽的出事情了"},{"start":12266.46,"end":12267.46,"text":"你什麼時候知道的"},{"start":12268.44,"end":12271.44,"text":"就是這個台糖沒有收的這個311油槽"},{"start":12271.44,"end":12275.44,"text":"這個是在後面7月1號要求他停工"},{"start":12275.44,"end":12277.44,"text":"然後後面的這個"},{"start":12277.44,"end":12279.44,"text":"4月天就發現你們7月才知道"},{"start":12280.83,"end":12282.83,"text":"好"},{"start":12281.93,"end":12283.93,"text":"你們7月才知道"},{"start":12283.78,"end":12286.78,"text":"因為6月30號中聯才通報我們"},{"start":12286.78,"end":12290.78,"text":"所以我們是從7月1號開始去茶場介入的"},{"start":12290.78,"end":12296.78,"text":"7月17日調查小組的會前會就已經精準點名了"},{"start":12296.78,"end":12298.78,"text":"指定要看這兩個油槽"},{"start":12298.78,"end":12302.78,"text":"代表你們最慢在7月17號以前就一清二楚了"},{"start":12302.78,"end":12305.78,"text":"那既然掌握了311跟301有問題"},{"start":12305.78,"end":12309.78,"text":"為什麼7月27號食藥署大張旗鼓開記者會"},{"start":12309.78,"end":12313.78,"text":"卻對台糖5月就驗出311油槽超標"},{"start":12313.78,"end":12317.78,"text":"私下改收301油槽這件事情隻字未提"},{"start":12317.78,"end":12320.78,"text":"那標槽報告為什麼刻意留在台糖這一段"},{"start":12320.78,"end":12322.78,"text":"你們到底在幫誰遮醜"},{"start":12322.78,"end":12324.78,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12324.78,"end":12328.78,"text":"我們針對現在在台糖的311油槽"},{"start":12328.78,"end":12331.78,"text":"其實還1100多公噸其實都一直都在"},{"start":12331.78,"end":12335.78,"text":"那這個跟我們現在食藥署在管食品的油品"},{"start":12335.78,"end":12337.78,"text":"如果沒有台中地院的裁定"},{"start":12337.78,"end":12340.78,"text":"這個機壓廠長報出台糖5月之前"},{"start":12340.78,"end":12342.78,"text":"內湖部是不是打算把311油槽"},{"start":12342.78,"end":12344.78,"text":"有毒的真相隱瞞一輩子"},{"start":12344.78,"end":12346.78,"text":"沒有 跟委員說明"},{"start":12346.78,"end":12349.78,"text":"我們針對的是他已經完成製程的"},{"start":12349.78,"end":12353.78,"text":"食用油比30批我們全部都查"},{"start":12353.78,"end":12359.78,"text":"他這個不是 他這個是做到一半的脫膠原油"},{"start":12359.78,"end":12361.78,"text":"311油槽是缺油以後"},{"start":12361.78,"end":12364.78,"text":"食用署去查廠的時候就封了嗎"},{"start":12365.14,"end":12368.14,"text":"就是7月1號就已經全面停工"},{"start":12368.14,"end":12370.14,"text":"所以他就不能動了"},{"start":12370.14,"end":12372.14,"text":"7月1號就已經全面停工"},{"start":12372.14,"end":12374.14,"text":"所以他根本沒有在製造油"},{"start":12374.14,"end":12380.14,"text":"對啦 油槽的裁減檢體的時候"},{"start":12380.14,"end":12382.14,"text":"311油槽就已經先動過"},{"start":12382.14,"end":12384.14,"text":"這個做過遷封了嘛 對不對"},{"start":12384.14,"end":12385.14,"text":"那我想請教"},{"start":12385.14,"end":12388.14,"text":"當你們食藥署真正趕到現場的時候"},{"start":12388.14,"end":12390.14,"text":"這311油槽"},{"start":12390.33,"end":12392.33,"text":"長什麼樣子 這個遷封還在不在"},{"start":12394.28,"end":12397.28,"text":"這個跟委員報告都在那裡"},{"start":12397.28,"end":12399.28,"text":"可以去看的"},{"start":12399.28,"end":12404.28,"text":"有沒有當時搜證的照片"},{"start":12404.28,"end":12407.28,"text":"那個油也沒有改變位置"},{"start":12407.28,"end":12409.28,"text":"那個槽也沒改變位置"},{"start":12409.28,"end":12411.28,"text":"那個蔡副總經理"},{"start":12421.89,"end":12423.89,"text":"你有這個遷封的照片嗎"},{"start":12424.92,"end":12426.92,"text":"遷封的照片我們在當初在驗收的時候有"},{"start":12428.15,"end":12429.15,"text":"那你可以提供嗎"},{"start":12429.67,"end":12431.67,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":12431.67,"end":12435.67,"text":"為什麼你們在7月21號公布30匹油的檢驗結果"},{"start":12435.67,"end":12437.67,"text":"還大言不慚的說"},{"start":12437.67,"end":12439.67,"text":"全部查驗完畢"},{"start":12439.67,"end":12441.67,"text":"而且還一直告訴大家可以上架"},{"start":12441.67,"end":12444.67,"text":"那份清單裡面完全沒有提到311"},{"start":12444.67,"end":12445.67,"text":"連301都沒有"},{"start":12445.67,"end":12448.67,"text":"你是不是打算用脫膠油跟成品油不一樣"},{"start":12448.67,"end":12452.67,"text":"所以不在這個清單內來這樣告訴我們民眾"},{"start":12452.67,"end":12454.67,"text":"因為它就不是成品了"},{"start":12454.67,"end":12457.67,"text":"它是做到一半的東西都已經停下來了"},{"start":12457.67,"end":12460.67,"text":"我們是30匹的匹號通通很清楚"},{"start":12460.67,"end":12465.67,"text":"那個是會要變成市場的食品"},{"start":12465.67,"end":12467.67,"text":"你知道有問題為什麼不列進去"},{"start":12467.67,"end":12469.67,"text":"因為它就不是食用油"},{"start":12469.67,"end":12472.67,"text":"它不是食用油"},{"start":12472.67,"end":12474.67,"text":"它可以做其他的用途"},{"start":12474.67,"end":12476.67,"text":"它為什麼不列可以做什麼"},{"start":12476.67,"end":12478.67,"text":"它可以做肥皂"},{"start":12478.67,"end":12479.67,"text":"它可以做工業用油"},{"start":12479.67,"end":12481.67,"text":"你這個油拿去是做什麼"},{"start":12483.09,"end":12485.09,"text":"脫膠油拿去做什麼"},{"start":12485.09,"end":12488.09,"text":"我說你們去買的油是做什麼用"},{"start":12488.09,"end":12490.09,"text":"做沙拉油精煉"},{"start":12490.09,"end":12492.09,"text":"精煉成沙拉油"},{"start":12493.13,"end":12495.13,"text":"什麼叫做肥皂"},{"start":12495.13,"end":12496.13,"text":"胡說八道"},{"start":12496.13,"end":12497.13,"text":"它就沒有做"},{"start":12497.13,"end":12499.13,"text":"它拉去明明就沒有要做這個"},{"start":12499.13,"end":12500.13,"text":"它可以去做其他的"},{"start":12500.13,"end":12502.13,"text":"你不要講這個東西"},{"start":12502.13,"end":12503.13,"text":"你講的廢話"},{"start":12503.13,"end":12504.13,"text":"它是做油的"},{"start":12504.13,"end":12506.13,"text":"它當然就沒有做肥皂"},{"start":12506.13,"end":12508.13,"text":"它怎麼會買油去做肥皂"},{"start":12508.13,"end":12509.13,"text":"不是"},{"start":12509.13,"end":12511.13,"text":"它們拿去就是要做沙拉油"},{"start":12511.13,"end":12512.13,"text":"脫膠原油"},{"start":12512.13,"end":12513.13,"text":"它有脫膠原油"},{"start":12513.13,"end":12515.13,"text":"拿去就是要做沙拉油"},{"start":12515.13,"end":12518.13,"text":"它們招標的時候也是說要做沙拉油"},{"start":12518.13,"end":12519.13,"text":"就是食用油"},{"start":12521.28,"end":12524.28,"text":"脫膠原油不是食用油"},{"start":12524.28,"end":12526.28,"text":"那是原料"},{"start":12526.28,"end":12528.28,"text":"它拿去就是要做這個"},{"start":12528.28,"end":12529.28,"text":"它當然要塗這個"},{"start":12529.28,"end":12533.28,"text":"不然它為什麼不拉"},{"start":12533.28,"end":12534.28,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12534.28,"end":12535.28,"text":"如果可以用它為什麼不拉"},{"start":12538.65,"end":12539.65,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12539.64,"end":12541.64,"text":"你們食藥署跟地方衛生局"},{"start":12541.64,"end":12543.64,"text":"一直追查全部都是這個"},{"start":12543.64,"end":12545.64,"text":"市面上的這個成品沙拉油"},{"start":12545.64,"end":12547.64,"text":"但從現在漏洞看來"},{"start":12547.64,"end":12549.64,"text":"市面上受害的規模"},{"start":12549.64,"end":12550.64,"text":"自來油的實際數量"},{"start":12550.64,"end":12553.64,"text":"根本遠超過你們對外公布的數字"},{"start":12553.64,"end":12555.64,"text":"我真的完全不指"},{"start":12556.43,"end":12557.43,"text":"是你們口中說的那樣子"},{"start":12557.43,"end":12559.43,"text":"完全讓人家聽不懂也看不懂"},{"start":12559.43,"end":12562.43,"text":"因為它沒有流出"},{"start":12562.43,"end":12563.43,"text":"它還是留在那裡"},{"start":12563.43,"end":12564.43,"text":"所以它沒有流出"},{"start":12564.43,"end":12566.43,"text":"它沒有做成產品"},{"start":12567.92,"end":12569.92,"text":"那個台糖那個菜父我再問你"},{"start":12571.86,"end":12574.86,"text":"你因為台中地檢署裁定出這個揭露"},{"start":12574.86,"end":12576.86,"text":"我們才知道台糖在5月11號"},{"start":12576.86,"end":12579.86,"text":"派員到中聯311油槽取樣"},{"start":12579.86,"end":12581.86,"text":"送這個檢驗"},{"start":12581.86,"end":12585.86,"text":"後來15日報告本田比14.PPB"},{"start":12585.86,"end":12587.86,"text":"標準才2PPB"},{"start":12587.86,"end":12589.86,"text":"那超過7倍"},{"start":12589.86,"end":12590.86,"text":"那台糖在5月18號"},{"start":12590.86,"end":12592.86,"text":"正式通知福茂聚收"},{"start":12592.86,"end":12594.86,"text":"那菜父總經理"},{"start":12594.86,"end":12595.86,"text":"你5月15號報告出來"},{"start":12595.86,"end":12597.86,"text":"台糖內部是誰決定"},{"start":12597.86,"end":12599.86,"text":"把這份報告壓下來"},{"start":12599.86,"end":12600.86,"text":"製作商業推貨"},{"start":12602.53,"end":12604.53,"text":"我們報告不會壓下來"},{"start":12604.53,"end":12606.53,"text":"那為什麼不通吧"},{"start":12606.53,"end":12608.53,"text":"我們送驗之後"},{"start":12608.53,"end":12611.53,"text":"它是超過我們招標的規範"},{"start":12611.53,"end":12613.53,"text":"所以我們就聚收啦"},{"start":12613.69,"end":12615.69,"text":"那你為什麼不通報咧"},{"start":12616.14,"end":12618.14,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":12618.14,"end":12620.14,"text":"這個連中聯都不需要通報啊"},{"start":12620.14,"end":12622.14,"text":"來你先不要"},{"start":12622.14,"end":12624.14,"text":"你繼續講"},{"start":12625.35,"end":12627.35,"text":"那個連中聯都不需要通報"},{"start":12627.35,"end":12629.35,"text":"因為它這個不是"},{"start":12629.35,"end":12631.35,"text":"來來來來"},{"start":12631.35,"end":12632.35,"text":"你回答一下"},{"start":12632.35,"end":12634.35,"text":"有沒有要通報"},{"start":12634.43,"end":12635.43,"text":"我先"},{"start":12635.96,"end":12638.96,"text":"依照台中地方法院的這個新聞稿"},{"start":12638.96,"end":12641.96,"text":"福茂他必須要有這個通報的責任"},{"start":12641.96,"end":12642.96,"text":"連中聯"},{"start":12642.96,"end":12643.96,"text":"那台糖咧"},{"start":12644.01,"end":12646.01,"text":"因為台糖的話它基本上"},{"start":12647.61,"end":12649.61,"text":"311油炒裡面的"},{"start":12649.61,"end":12651.61,"text":"所謂的出油的部分"},{"start":12651.61,"end":12654.61,"text":"始終沒有進入到台糖的生產"},{"start":12654.61,"end":12655.61,"text":"經濟部啊"},{"start":12655.61,"end":12656.61,"text":"就沒有與說"},{"start":12656.61,"end":12658.61,"text":"經濟部定有"},{"start":12658.61,"end":12660.61,"text":"災害及緊急事件通報程序"},{"start":12660.61,"end":12662.61,"text":"裡面寫的很清楚啊"},{"start":12662.61,"end":12665.61,"text":"凡是經濟部所屬的事業體發生"},{"start":12665.61,"end":12667.61,"text":"只要滿足"},{"start":12667.61,"end":12669.61,"text":"影響民生"},{"start":12669.85,"end":12671.85,"text":"影響上下有產業工序"},{"start":12671.85,"end":12673.85,"text":"影響事業形象"},{"start":12673.85,"end":12675.85,"text":"或者可能引起媒體"},{"start":12675.85,"end":12677.85,"text":"報導的任何一項都必須要"},{"start":12677.85,"end":12679.85,"text":"啟動通報"},{"start":12679.7,"end":12681.7,"text":"台糖是國營事業吧"},{"start":12683.16,"end":12686.16,"text":"第一個台糖公司針對它生產的產品"},{"start":12686.16,"end":12688.16,"text":"比如說大道殺油的部分"},{"start":12688.16,"end":12691.16,"text":"無論是在它製程的過程裡面"},{"start":12691.16,"end":12693.16,"text":"它自主的檢驗"},{"start":12693.16,"end":12695.16,"text":"它已經影響"},{"start":12695.16,"end":12697.16,"text":"它要去收的油"},{"start":12697.16,"end":12699.16,"text":"已經影響上下有產業工序"},{"start":12699.16,"end":12701.16,"text":"怎麼會沒有影響呢"},{"start":12701.16,"end":12703.16,"text":"第二個部分你剛剛講的是"},{"start":12703.16,"end":12705.16,"text":"我們是依照這個災防法的一個規定"},{"start":12705.16,"end":12707.16,"text":"去訂定相關的這個"},{"start":12707.16,"end":12709.16,"text":"所謂的作業規則"},{"start":12709.16,"end":12711.16,"text":"這個是依照災害防救法"},{"start":12711.16,"end":12715.16,"text":"現在是全台最大油著上游"},{"start":12715.16,"end":12719.16,"text":"中年的油潮驗出致癌物超過7倍"},{"start":12719.16,"end":12721.16,"text":"這沒有影響民生嗎"},{"start":12721.16,"end":12723.16,"text":"這不嚴重嗎"},{"start":12723.16,"end":12725.16,"text":"在做審理之中"},{"start":12725.16,"end":12727.16,"text":"而台中地檢署它也多次的表達"},{"start":12727.16,"end":12729.16,"text":"我現在為你經濟部的規定"},{"start":12730.04,"end":12732.04,"text":"沒有,我們是災防法的規定"},{"start":12733.67,"end":12735.67,"text":"你講到台中去幹嘛"},{"start":12735.98,"end":12737.98,"text":"這個是食品安全"},{"start":12738.12,"end":12740.12,"text":"這也一樣啊,這沒有影響嗎"},{"start":12740.69,"end":12742.69,"text":"這沒有影響民生嗎"},{"start":12742.98,"end":12744.98,"text":"這沒有影響上下有產業工序嗎"},{"start":12744.98,"end":12746.98,"text":"今天比如說是像"},{"start":12746.98,"end":12748.98,"text":"所謂的漏水啦"},{"start":12748.98,"end":12750.98,"text":"或是有一些可能影響我們民眾用水的安全"},{"start":12750.98,"end":12752.98,"text":"的這個部分"},{"start":12752.98,"end":12754.98,"text":"它會通報啊"},{"start":12754.98,"end":12756.98,"text":"依照這個規定"},{"start":12756.98,"end":12758.98,"text":"我現在問的是台糖耶"},{"start":12758.98,"end":12760.98,"text":"台糖不是你國營事業"},{"start":12760.98,"end":12762.98,"text":"台糖當然是國營事業"},{"start":12762.98,"end":12764.98,"text":"國營事業只要負責有關於西埃的事業體發生事件"},{"start":12764.98,"end":12766.98,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12766.98,"end":12768.98,"text":"有關於西埃的部分"},{"start":12768.98,"end":12770.98,"text":"它透過災害防救法集中"},{"start":12770.98,"end":12772.98,"text":"決定不要通報"},{"start":12772.98,"end":12774.98,"text":"現在就勇敢回答啦"},{"start":12774.98,"end":12776.98,"text":"從年頭到人民吃下肚子以前"},{"start":12776.98,"end":12778.98,"text":"上千項產品都被影響了"},{"start":12778.98,"end":12780.98,"text":"怎麼會沒影響呢"},{"start":12780.98,"end":12782.98,"text":"有沒有影響上下有產業工序"},{"start":12782.98,"end":12784.98,"text":"會不會影響人民健康"},{"start":12784.98,"end":12786.98,"text":"沒有影響台糖形象嗎"},{"start":12786.98,"end":12788.98,"text":"企業的出售方跟福茂有通知"},{"start":12788.98,"end":12790.98,"text":"這幾天啊,你們都是媒體追逐的焦點"},{"start":12790.98,"end":12792.98,"text":"法院也判決說"},{"start":12792.98,"end":12794.98,"text":"這事項指標完全滿足"},{"start":12795.8,"end":12797.8,"text":"台糖社會經濟部下轄的國營事業"},{"start":12797.8,"end":12799.8,"text":"帶頭違反經濟部"},{"start":12799.8,"end":12801.8,"text":"自己的災害通報"},{"start":12801.8,"end":12803.8,"text":"這個程序,瞞了兩個月"},{"start":12803.8,"end":12805.8,"text":"經濟部到現在還沒有懲處耶"},{"start":12805.8,"end":12807.8,"text":"竟然還連續發文幫忙"},{"start":12807.8,"end":12809.8,"text":"大喜地說大讚台糖是"},{"start":12809.8,"end":12811.8,"text":"這個好寶寶"},{"start":12811.82,"end":12813.82,"text":"好厲害,很棒棒"},{"start":12813.82,"end":12815.82,"text":"是這樣嗎"},{"start":12815.82,"end":12817.82,"text":"經濟部對我們國營事業平時"},{"start":12818.84,"end":12820.84,"text":"都有定期的實地查核"},{"start":12820.84,"end":12822.84,"text":"然後年終有一個查核的"},{"start":12822.84,"end":12824.84,"text":"這個工作"},{"start":12824.84,"end":12826.84,"text":"所以基本上我們對國營事業"},{"start":12826.84,"end":12828.84,"text":"基本上都導的一個"},{"start":12828.84,"end":12830.84,"text":"高檢署檢察官都已經講了啦"},{"start":12830.84,"end":12832.84,"text":"通報是一律啦"},{"start":12832.84,"end":12834.84,"text":"所以你們不要再拗"},{"start":12834.84,"end":12836.84,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12836.84,"end":12838.84,"text":"通報的責任啊"},{"start":12838.84,"end":12840.84,"text":"本來就應該要通報啊"},{"start":12840.84,"end":12842.84,"text":"你放在那邊"},{"start":12842.84,"end":12844.84,"text":"你已經驗到有這個東西,你不往上通報"},{"start":12845.35,"end":12847.35,"text":"可是他今天這個材料"},{"start":12847.35,"end":12849.35,"text":"當然台糖不是"},{"start":12849.35,"end":12851.35,"text":"台糖的錯不是很大"},{"start":12851.35,"end":12853.35,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":12853.35,"end":12855.35,"text":"最後如果錯還是這個中聯"},{"start":12855.35,"end":12857.35,"text":"台糖應該要"},{"start":12857.35,"end":12859.35,"text":"你應該要扮起"},{"start":12859.35,"end":12861.35,"text":"扮起一個"},{"start":12861.35,"end":12863.35,"text":"這個業者的一個"},{"start":12863.35,"end":12865.35,"text":"基本的一個"},{"start":12865.14,"end":12867.14,"text":"太突兀了"},{"start":12867.51,"end":12871.51,"text":"這個材料沒有進入到台糖的這個制程裡面"},{"start":12871.51,"end":12873.51,"text":"之前他可以販售到"},{"start":12873.51,"end":12875.51,"text":"比如說工業的添加劑"},{"start":12875.51,"end":12877.51,"text":"包括潤滑油包括肥皂"},{"start":12877.51,"end":12879.51,"text":"所以中聯公司他可以賣去做"},{"start":12879.51,"end":12881.51,"text":"最後我再問你啊"},{"start":12881.51,"end":12883.51,"text":"但是回到食品安全的部分"},{"start":12883.51,"end":12885.51,"text":"台糖公司依照依照"},{"start":12885.51,"end":12887.51,"text":"你們的標案"},{"start":12887.51,"end":12889.51,"text":"今年台糖在5月13日公告的"},{"start":12889.51,"end":12891.51,"text":"CO115黃豆"},{"start":12891.51,"end":12893.51,"text":"出油採購案"},{"start":12893.51,"end":12895.51,"text":"那5月13日公告當時"},{"start":12895.51,"end":12897.51,"text":"台糖確實還沒有拿到那超標的7倍報告"},{"start":12897.51,"end":12901.51,"text":"但是台糖在5月15日已經收到檢驗結果"},{"start":12901.51,"end":12903.51,"text":"那確認中聯"},{"start":12903.51,"end":12905.51,"text":"311油槽的"},{"start":12905.51,"end":12907.51,"text":"獨有本年比的"},{"start":12907.51,"end":12909.51,"text":"高達14.7ppm"},{"start":12909.51,"end":12911.51,"text":"超標過"},{"start":12911.51,"end":12913.51,"text":"這個超過7倍"},{"start":12913.51,"end":12915.51,"text":"那在5月18號通知據說"},{"start":12915.51,"end":12919.51,"text":"那這個CO115標案的投標截止日是"},{"start":12919.51,"end":12921.51,"text":"5月25日"},{"start":12921.51,"end":12923.51,"text":"從5月15到25號"},{"start":12923.51,"end":12925.51,"text":"25號有10天"},{"start":12925.51,"end":12927.51,"text":"那中聯油紙是國內大型油紙的上游"},{"start":12927.51,"end":12933.51,"text":"那福茂更是與此標案有高度的相關的供應商"},{"start":12933.51,"end":12937.51,"text":"那台糖在辦理這個優關民生十三重大的採購案期間"},{"start":12937.51,"end":12939.51,"text":"已經驗出了這個上游供應鏈"},{"start":12939.51,"end":12941.51,"text":"這個製程失控"},{"start":12941.51,"end":12943.51,"text":"獨數超標7倍的致命訊號"},{"start":12943.51,"end":12945.51,"text":"整整10天喔"},{"start":12945.51,"end":12949.51,"text":"那台糖為什麼沒有暫停這個資格審查"},{"start":12952.5,"end":12958.5,"text":"所有的這個資格審查的部分是發生在這個更早之前"},{"start":12958.5,"end":12960.5,"text":"但是現在它有產品"},{"start":12960.5,"end":12962.5,"text":"它不需要提供到台糖的"},{"start":12962.5,"end":12966.5,"text":"那你有沒有把這項重大供應風險納入審查這個項目"},{"start":12966.5,"end":12968.5,"text":"台糖的這個允收的標準"},{"start":12968.5,"end":12972.5,"text":"除了我們剛剛一直在談的本年比之外"},{"start":12972.5,"end":12974.5,"text":"還有很多的一個標準"},{"start":12974.5,"end":12976.5,"text":"比如說是點啊"},{"start":12976.5,"end":12978.5,"text":"它現在是這個標準"},{"start":12978.5,"end":12980.5,"text":"它這家有公司"},{"start":12980.5,"end":12982.5,"text":"你們還繼續讓它做嗎"},{"start":12982.5,"end":12984.5,"text":"你還繼續讓它做嗎"},{"start":12985.53,"end":12987.53,"text":"透過中央跟地方角合作的話"},{"start":12989.28,"end":12991.28,"text":"特別是像中聯這個市佔率這麼大的"},{"start":12991.28,"end":12995.28,"text":"所謂的所謂的有品的這個提供的這個廠商"},{"start":12996.28,"end":12998.28,"text":"在地方的政府可以加強的稽查之下的話"},{"start":12998.28,"end":13002.28,"text":"事實上它這個不合格的這個產品"},{"start":13003.11,"end":13005.11,"text":"產生的這個機率就會大幅的降低了"},{"start":13006.49,"end":13010.49,"text":"那CO015全部申請投標的廠商有哪些"},{"start":13011.69,"end":13013.69,"text":"審查合格的有哪些"},{"start":13013.69,"end":13015.69,"text":"你再提供給我"},{"start":13015.03,"end":13017.03,"text":"有九家廠商"},{"start":13017.03,"end":13021.03,"text":"好那你把這個得標的資格我們看一下"},{"start":13021.03,"end":13023.03,"text":"那過去福壽跟泰山這個得標"},{"start":13023.03,"end":13025.03,"text":"跟這次福茂一樣得標"},{"start":13025.03,"end":13029.03,"text":"你們都是去中聯去拉貨嘛"},{"start":13029.03,"end":13031.03,"text":"拉油嘛對不對"},{"start":13030.53,"end":13032.53,"text":"一年買幾個億幾個億的買"},{"start":13033.3,"end":13035.3,"text":"那現在這一家出問題了"},{"start":13035.87,"end":13037.87,"text":"你們沒有替代方案嗎"},{"start":13038.13,"end":13040.13,"text":"還要繼續在那邊買嗎"},{"start":13040.2,"end":13042.2,"text":"有問題的"},{"start":13041.82,"end":13043.82,"text":"材料"},{"start":13042.82,"end":13044.82,"text":"不符合營收標準"},{"start":13044.82,"end":13046.82,"text":"台糖不會進入到炭熱廠區"},{"start":13047.41,"end":13049.41,"text":"有沒有依政府採購法"},{"start":13049.41,"end":13051.41,"text":"一律一條來審理"},{"start":13051.41,"end":13053.41,"text":"將福茂提報為不良廠商"},{"start":13053.41,"end":13055.41,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":13055.41,"end":13057.41,"text":"這個採購的這個部分請"},{"start":13058.26,"end":13062.26,"text":"這個台糖公司會依照法的規定來辦理"},{"start":13062.26,"end":13064.26,"text":"我們會再研究"},{"start":13064.08,"end":13066.08,"text":"你現在還沒有決定就對了"},{"start":13066.08,"end":13068.08,"text":"那如果繼續買呢"},{"start":13068.89,"end":13070.89,"text":"因為"},{"start":13070.34,"end":13072.34,"text":"所有的為合乎資格的部分"},{"start":13072.34,"end":13074.34,"text":"我們不提領"},{"start":13074.34,"end":13076.34,"text":"但是他提供的部分"},{"start":13076.34,"end":13078.34,"text":"合乎我們契約的營收標準"},{"start":13078.34,"end":13080.34,"text":"那這個台糖公司會收"},{"start":13080.34,"end":13082.34,"text":"我覺得你們要列入考量啦"},{"start":13082.34,"end":13084.34,"text":"這些有問題的業者"},{"start":13084.34,"end":13086.34,"text":"你們在資格審查的時候"},{"start":13086.34,"end":13088.34,"text":"一定要做一個區隔"},{"start":13088.34,"end":13090.34,"text":"好不好再做嚴格的審查可以嗎"},{"start":13090.34,"end":13092.34,"text":"好謝謝委員指導"},{"start":13094.42,"end":13096.42,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":13099.3,"end":13101.3,"text":"好謝謝邱政經委員"},{"start":13101.3,"end":13103.3,"text":"那這邊宣告一下"},{"start":13103.3,"end":13105.3,"text":"待會在劉建國委員"},{"start":13105.3,"end":13107.3,"text":"巡達完畢休息30分鐘"},{"start":13107.3,"end":13109.3,"text":"用餐"},{"start":13109.3,"end":13111.3,"text":"休息以後我們繼續來開會"},{"start":13111.3,"end":13113.3,"text":"那我們請下一位"},{"start":13113.3,"end":13115.3,"text":"我們黃秀芳委員"},{"start":13120.53,"end":13122.53,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請部長"},{"start":13124.11,"end":13126.11,"text":"好請司部長"},{"start":13127.95,"end":13129.95,"text":"黃秀芳委員好"},{"start":13129.95,"end":13131.95,"text":"部長從上午到現在"},{"start":13131.95,"end":13133.95,"text":"其實我也覺得你解釋的很辛苦"},{"start":13133.95,"end":13135.95,"text":"那我也希望就是說"},{"start":13135.95,"end":13137.95,"text":"這個民眾的疑慮"},{"start":13137.95,"end":13139.95,"text":"能夠一次講清楚"},{"start":13139.95,"end":13141.95,"text":"那今天早上提出來的"},{"start":13141.95,"end":13143.95,"text":"這個臨時提案該公佈的"},{"start":13143.95,"end":13145.95,"text":"你就是要完整的公佈"},{"start":13145.95,"end":13147.95,"text":"這個是應該就是第一次"},{"start":13147.95,"end":13149.95,"text":"讓所有的民眾能夠看得很清楚"},{"start":13149.95,"end":13151.95,"text":"到底是中央政府蓋牌"},{"start":13151.95,"end":13153.95,"text":"或者是地方政府蓋牌"},{"start":13153.95,"end":13155.95,"text":"那我"},{"start":13155.95,"end":13157.95,"text":"接下來我想請教"},{"start":13157.95,"end":13159.95,"text":"因為針對今天很多委員"},{"start":13159.95,"end":13161.95,"text":"一直在關心就是說"},{"start":13161.95,"end":13163.95,"text":"台糖沒有通報"},{"start":13163.95,"end":13165.95,"text":"那我想請教就是說"},{"start":13165.95,"end":13167.95,"text":"如果按照這樣的邏輯"},{"start":13167.95,"end":13171.95,"text":"如果台糖今天真的有通報"},{"start":13171.95,"end":13173.95,"text":"如果台糖今天真的有通報"},{"start":13173.95,"end":13175.95,"text":"高雄市政府"},{"start":13175.95,"end":13177.95,"text":"那高雄市政府也通報"},{"start":13177.95,"end":13179.95,"text":"台中市政府"},{"start":13179.95,"end":13183.95,"text":"那台中市政府它可以去扣這一批原油嗎"},{"start":13183.95,"end":13185.95,"text":"就是去扣這一批的"},{"start":13185.95,"end":13187.95,"text":"脫焦原油"},{"start":13187.95,"end":13189.95,"text":"它不會扣因為它接下來還有製程"},{"start":13189.95,"end":13191.95,"text":"所以它要從最終去驗它"},{"start":13191.95,"end":13193.95,"text":"如果它最終產出來的"},{"start":13193.95,"end":13195.95,"text":"食用油脂驗出來超標"},{"start":13195.95,"end":13197.95,"text":"那當然就不可以"},{"start":13197.95,"end":13199.95,"text":"所以就是說"},{"start":13199.95,"end":13201.95,"text":"我們目前也沒有定"},{"start":13201.95,"end":13203.95,"text":"這個脫焦原油的標準"},{"start":13203.95,"end":13205.95,"text":"就是說黃豆"},{"start":13205.95,"end":13207.95,"text":"它是從黃豆來"},{"start":13207.95,"end":13209.95,"text":"黃豆然後去壓榨出來的"},{"start":13209.95,"end":13211.95,"text":"第一層的油是脫焦原油"},{"start":13211.95,"end":13213.95,"text":"所以黃豆我們也沒有定本便比標準"},{"start":13213.95,"end":13215.95,"text":"脫焦原油也沒有本便比標準"},{"start":13215.95,"end":13217.95,"text":"我們是定在最後的食用油的部分"},{"start":13217.95,"end":13219.95,"text":"有本便比標準"},{"start":13219.95,"end":13221.95,"text":"所以在我們目前的食安法當中"},{"start":13221.95,"end":13223.95,"text":"以台糖為例的話"},{"start":13223.95,"end":13225.95,"text":"它有義務要通報嗎"},{"start":13225.95,"end":13227.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13227.95,"end":13229.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13229.95,"end":13231.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13231.95,"end":13233.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13233.95,"end":13235.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13235.95,"end":13237.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13237.95,"end":13239.95,"text":"如果以目前食安法"},{"start":13233.03,"end":13235.03,"text":"通報的義務是來自於我們對標準的訂定"},{"start":13235.03,"end":13237.03,"text":"通報的義務是來自於我們對標準的訂定"},{"start":13237.03,"end":13239.03,"text":"所以有一些如果是不得減出的"},{"start":13239.03,"end":13241.03,"text":"所以有一些如果是不得減出的"},{"start":13241.03,"end":13243.03,"text":"不得添加的就有"},{"start":13243.03,"end":13245.03,"text":"那如果有訂標準的"},{"start":13245.03,"end":13247.03,"text":"那當然是針對超過標準的品項的部分"},{"start":13247.03,"end":13249.03,"text":"那當然是針對超過標準的品項的部分"},{"start":13249.03,"end":13251.03,"text":"它就要通報"},{"start":13251.03,"end":13253.03,"text":"所以換言之它今天所拿的是脫焦原油"},{"start":13253.03,"end":13255.03,"text":"它今天所拿的是脫焦原油"},{"start":13255.03,"end":13257.03,"text":"那脫焦原油主管機關並沒有訂出"},{"start":13257.03,"end":13259.03,"text":"貶平比的標準"},{"start":13259.03,"end":13261.03,"text":"它只是它採購的標準"},{"start":13261.03,"end":13263.03,"text":"它自己訂的一個採購標準"},{"start":13263.03,"end":13265.03,"text":"所以這個是沒有"},{"start":13265.55,"end":13267.55,"text":"在食安法裡面是沒有強制通報的義務的"},{"start":13267.55,"end":13269.55,"text":"所以這是一個不得減出的品項的部分"},{"start":13269.55,"end":13271.55,"text":"那如果說未來我們修食安法"},{"start":13271.55,"end":13273.55,"text":"那如果說未來我們修食安法"},{"start":13273.55,"end":13275.55,"text":"未來修食安法將這個原本的這個"},{"start":13275.55,"end":13277.55,"text":"將這個原本的這個"},{"start":13277.55,"end":13279.55,"text":"可能脫焦原油也制定這樣的一個標準"},{"start":13279.55,"end":13281.55,"text":"可能脫焦原油也制定這樣的一個標準"},{"start":13281.55,"end":13283.55,"text":"你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":13283.55,"end":13285.55,"text":"這個會造成實務上很大的困難"},{"start":13285.55,"end":13287.55,"text":"因為如果今天我們在脫焦原油的這個階段"},{"start":13287.55,"end":13289.55,"text":"因為如果今天我們在脫焦原油的這個階段"},{"start":13289.55,"end":13291.55,"text":"驗到的是2.4ppb"},{"start":13291.55,"end":13293.55,"text":"可是根據它後面的"},{"start":13293.55,"end":13295.55,"text":"脫酸脫色脫臭"},{"start":13295.55,"end":13297.55,"text":"它是可以降低80%的"},{"start":13297.55,"end":13299.55,"text":"它是可以降低80%的"},{"start":13299.55,"end":13301.55,"text":"這個這個扁ppb標準"},{"start":13301.55,"end":13303.55,"text":"結果就會造成"},{"start":13303.55,"end":13305.55,"text":"它一旦驗出脫焦原油2.4"},{"start":13305.55,"end":13307.55,"text":"它一旦驗出脫焦原油2.4"},{"start":13307.55,"end":13309.55,"text":"它就全部停下來"},{"start":13309.55,"end":13311.55,"text":"這個就不能用"},{"start":13311.55,"end":13313.55,"text":"那這個對於我們這個油的產量"},{"start":13313.55,"end":13315.55,"text":"會有很大的問題"},{"start":13315.55,"end":13317.55,"text":"我們的油的產量都是靠進口"},{"start":13317.55,"end":13319.55,"text":"那個黃豆"},{"start":13319.55,"end":13321.55,"text":"進來煉油的"},{"start":13321.55,"end":13323.55,"text":"那這個會大幅的"},{"start":13323.55,"end":13325.55,"text":"這個對食物也是一種浪費"},{"start":13325.55,"end":13327.55,"text":"說實在話"},{"start":13327.55,"end":13329.55,"text":"所以我們是從製程當中"},{"start":13329.55,"end":13331.55,"text":"去掌控"},{"start":13331.55,"end":13333.55,"text":"因為它不是外來添加"},{"start":13333.55,"end":13335.55,"text":"它是一個有機物"},{"start":13335.55,"end":13337.55,"text":"在這個製造的過程當中"},{"start":13337.55,"end":13339.55,"text":"黃豆的本身會產生"},{"start":13339.55,"end":13341.55,"text":"製造的過程當中"},{"start":13341.55,"end":13343.55,"text":"因為溫度的變化它會產生"},{"start":13343.55,"end":13345.55,"text":"所以你要在製程上去把它控制好"},{"start":13345.55,"end":13347.55,"text":"那就可以達到"},{"start":13347.55,"end":13349.55,"text":"我們這個符合安全標準的食品"},{"start":13349.55,"end":13351.55,"text":"好那我是希望就是說"},{"start":13351.55,"end":13353.55,"text":"其實這麼多委員在關心"},{"start":13353.55,"end":13355.55,"text":"就是說食用油的這個安全"},{"start":13355.55,"end":13357.55,"text":"當然未來我們也希望就是說"},{"start":13357.55,"end":13359.55,"text":"這個修食安法"},{"start":13359.55,"end":13361.55,"text":"那民眾擔心的"},{"start":13361.55,"end":13363.55,"text":"或者是委員希望在加嚴的部分"},{"start":13363.55,"end":13365.55,"text":"當然這個我覺得"},{"start":13365.55,"end":13367.55,"text":"這個都可以討論"},{"start":13367.55,"end":13369.55,"text":"即使就是說未來這個脫焦原油"},{"start":13369.55,"end":13371.55,"text":"它是做成食用油的話"},{"start":13371.55,"end":13373.55,"text":"其實我覺得在這上面"},{"start":13373.55,"end":13375.55,"text":"其實我覺得也可以做一些規範"},{"start":13375.55,"end":13377.55,"text":"那當然"},{"start":13377.55,"end":13379.55,"text":"我一直覺得說"},{"start":13379.55,"end":13381.55,"text":"如果今天地方政府能夠"},{"start":13381.55,"end":13383.55,"text":"這個多用點心"},{"start":13383.55,"end":13385.55,"text":"不是八年才驗一次"},{"start":13385.55,"end":13387.55,"text":"也許它半年就去驗一次"},{"start":13387.55,"end":13389.55,"text":"茶場也好"},{"start":13389.55,"end":13391.55,"text":"或者是抽檢也好"},{"start":13391.55,"end":13393.55,"text":"抽驗也好"},{"start":13393.55,"end":13395.55,"text":"就不會有造成今天的"},{"start":13395.55,"end":13397.55,"text":"這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":13397.55,"end":13399.55,"text":"所以我也希望就是說"},{"start":13399.55,"end":13401.55,"text":"未來我們如果再有"},{"start":13401.55,"end":13403.55,"text":"就是我們未來要修這個食安法"},{"start":13403.55,"end":13405.55,"text":"中央政府跟地方政府的權責"},{"start":13405.55,"end":13407.55,"text":"我覺得應該就是要"},{"start":13407.55,"end":13409.55,"text":"很明確的把它制定下來"},{"start":13409.55,"end":13411.55,"text":"如果今天我們修食安法"},{"start":13411.55,"end":13413.55,"text":"我們把這個法這個修得很嚴"},{"start":13413.55,"end":13415.55,"text":"好 那地方政府"},{"start":13415.55,"end":13417.55,"text":"它也是一樣"},{"start":13417.55,"end":13419.55,"text":"可能八年才去驗一次"},{"start":13419.55,"end":13421.55,"text":"那如果類似這樣子"},{"start":13421.55,"end":13423.55,"text":"狀況的話 其實未來"},{"start":13423.55,"end":13425.55,"text":"如果這個食用油再出問題"},{"start":13425.55,"end":13427.55,"text":"我覺得這個沒有什麼好意外的"},{"start":13427.55,"end":13429.55,"text":"如果地方政府它也不用心"},{"start":13429.55,"end":13431.55,"text":"然後對於這個抽驗"},{"start":13431.55,"end":13433.55,"text":"茶場多用點心的話"},{"start":13433.55,"end":13435.55,"text":"多用點心的話"},{"start":13435.55,"end":13437.55,"text":"其實我覺得你這個修法修得再嚴"},{"start":13437.55,"end":13439.55,"text":"那地方政府它也不作為的話"},{"start":13439.55,"end":13441.55,"text":"其實我覺得這種"},{"start":13441.55,"end":13443.55,"text":"事情還是會發生"},{"start":13443.55,"end":13445.55,"text":"所以我希望就是說"},{"start":13445.55,"end":13447.55,"text":"我也相信"},{"start":13447.55,"end":13449.55,"text":"所有的民眾不希望就是說"},{"start":13449.55,"end":13451.55,"text":"中央跟地方大家好像互提皮球"},{"start":13451.55,"end":13453.55,"text":"會覺得說這個是誰的責任"},{"start":13453.55,"end":13455.55,"text":"當然食品出現問題"},{"start":13455.55,"end":13457.55,"text":"是中央跟地方都有責任"},{"start":13457.55,"end":13459.55,"text":"那怎麼樣再讓"},{"start":13459.55,"end":13461.55,"text":"這種事情以後不要再發生"},{"start":13461.55,"end":13463.55,"text":"我覺得這個是最重要的"},{"start":13463.55,"end":13465.55,"text":"當然就是說"},{"start":13465.55,"end":13467.55,"text":"大家一直想說"},{"start":13467.55,"end":13469.55,"text":"要追根究底查明原因"},{"start":13469.55,"end":13471.55,"text":"我也覺得應該要查明原因"},{"start":13471.55,"end":13473.55,"text":"到底是哪一個環節出錯"},{"start":13473.55,"end":13475.55,"text":"那未來制定法律之後"},{"start":13475.55,"end":13477.55,"text":"或者是加嚴之後"},{"start":13477.55,"end":13479.55,"text":"是不是真的可以杜絕"},{"start":13479.55,"end":13481.55,"text":"這樣的事情再次的發生"},{"start":13481.55,"end":13483.55,"text":"所以我希望就是說"},{"start":13483.55,"end":13485.55,"text":"部長針對今天所有的委員"},{"start":13488.1,"end":13489.1,"text":"就"},{"start":13488.98,"end":13490.98,"text":"大家都很關心"},{"start":13490.98,"end":13492.98,"text":"那我覺得一點就是說"},{"start":13492.98,"end":13494.98,"text":"大家一直在追究"},{"start":13494.98,"end":13496.98,"text":"可能是中央部會"},{"start":13496.98,"end":13498.98,"text":"可能是衛福部食藥署的責任"},{"start":13498.98,"end":13500.98,"text":"大家也很少去提"},{"start":13500.98,"end":13502.98,"text":"那為什麼地方政府"},{"start":13502.98,"end":13504.98,"text":"這個也是你的責任"},{"start":13504.98,"end":13506.98,"text":"那為什麼大家也不會去講一下說"},{"start":13506.98,"end":13508.98,"text":"為什麼地方政府你八年才驗一次"},{"start":13508.98,"end":13510.98,"text":"甚至有的根本都沒有驗"},{"start":13510.98,"end":13512.98,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":13512.98,"end":13514.98,"text":"這個中央跟地方"},{"start":13514.98,"end":13516.98,"text":"大家都有責任"},{"start":13516.98,"end":13518.98,"text":"那未來要怎麼樣"},{"start":13518.98,"end":13520.98,"text":"讓這種事情不要再發生"},{"start":13520.98,"end":13522.98,"text":"另外就是說通報的責任"},{"start":13523.32,"end":13525.32,"text":"如果今天以台糖的話"},{"start":13525.32,"end":13527.32,"text":"其實他是沒有通報的"},{"start":13527.32,"end":13529.32,"text":"這個義務啦"},{"start":13529.32,"end":13531.32,"text":"那當然台糖他"},{"start":13531.32,"end":13533.32,"text":"本於這個企業的責任"},{"start":13533.32,"end":13535.32,"text":"如果今天"},{"start":13535.32,"end":13537.32,"text":"如果我們的這個"},{"start":13537.32,"end":13539.32,"text":"食安法修完之後"},{"start":13539.32,"end":13541.32,"text":"那也許會對於買方"},{"start":13541.32,"end":13543.32,"text":"如果像台糖的話"},{"start":13543.32,"end":13545.32,"text":"你有查驗"},{"start":13545.32,"end":13547.32,"text":"查到這個脫交原有"},{"start":13547.32,"end":13549.32,"text":"超乎你們自己本身的標準"},{"start":13549.32,"end":13551.32,"text":"那未來是不是也要"},{"start":13551.32,"end":13553.32,"text":"請台糖這邊也要通報"},{"start":13553.32,"end":13555.32,"text":"不只是台糖其他的"},{"start":13555.32,"end":13557.32,"text":"食品廠也要通報"},{"start":13557.32,"end":13559.32,"text":"是不是朝著這個方向去進行"},{"start":13559.32,"end":13561.32,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":13561.32,"end":13563.32,"text":"當然在全民一起監督"},{"start":13563.32,"end":13565.32,"text":"食安的這個精神之下"},{"start":13565.32,"end":13567.32,"text":"我們都鼓勵不論是"},{"start":13567.32,"end":13569.32,"text":"消費者不論是任何一個"},{"start":13569.32,"end":13571.32,"text":"城市的業者有什麼"},{"start":13571.32,"end":13573.32,"text":"發現異常都可以來通報"},{"start":13573.32,"end":13575.32,"text":"這個是沒有問題都跟地方"},{"start":13575.32,"end":13577.32,"text":"主管機關去通報"},{"start":13577.32,"end":13579.32,"text":"讓他有預警早一點去介入是可以的"},{"start":13579.32,"end":13581.32,"text":"但是如果回到法律面"},{"start":13581.32,"end":13583.32,"text":"要去裁罰就是"},{"start":13583.32,"end":13585.32,"text":"強制通報的義務"},{"start":13585.32,"end":13587.32,"text":"要去裁罰的時候"},{"start":13587.32,"end":13589.32,"text":"那我們也必須依法有據"},{"start":13589.32,"end":13591.32,"text":"所以我剛剛一直講台糖如果"},{"start":13591.32,"end":13593.32,"text":"他要來通報不是不行"},{"start":13593.32,"end":13595.32,"text":"他可以通報"},{"start":13595.32,"end":13597.32,"text":"但是如果要來苛責說"},{"start":13597.32,"end":13599.32,"text":"你是不是因為沒有通報"},{"start":13599.32,"end":13601.32,"text":"要去處罰他"},{"start":13601.32,"end":13603.32,"text":"那我們就必須回到法規面"},{"start":13603.32,"end":13605.32,"text":"我們這個法律的原則"},{"start":13605.32,"end":13607.32,"text":"法規沒有規定他一定要通報"},{"start":13607.32,"end":13609.32,"text":"但是為食安大家"},{"start":13609.32,"end":13611.32,"text":"一起來監督"},{"start":13611.32,"end":13613.32,"text":"大家來通報這個是我們"},{"start":13613.32,"end":13615.32,"text":"支持的方向"},{"start":13615.32,"end":13617.32,"text":"我剛剛一直在講"},{"start":13617.32,"end":13619.32,"text":"如果地方政府他有"},{"start":13619.32,"end":13621.32,"text":"積極落實稽查或抽菸"},{"start":13621.32,"end":13623.32,"text":"就是讓業者不會"},{"start":13623.32,"end":13625.32,"text":"有心存僥倖"},{"start":13625.32,"end":13627.32,"text":"這個我看到"},{"start":13627.32,"end":13629.32,"text":"就是說地方政府最近"},{"start":13629.32,"end":13631.32,"text":"可能就有的罰300"},{"start":13631.32,"end":13633.32,"text":"罰300萬"},{"start":13633.32,"end":13635.32,"text":"像這樣子的話事後的裁罰"},{"start":13635.32,"end":13637.32,"text":"很多就是對罰個300萬"},{"start":13637.32,"end":13639.32,"text":"其實對一個食品業者"},{"start":13639.32,"end":13641.32,"text":"或者是對於這個"},{"start":13641.32,"end":13643.32,"text":"自由的這個像中聯有指的話"},{"start":13643.32,"end":13645.32,"text":"其實對他們來講是不痛不癢"},{"start":13645.32,"end":13647.32,"text":"那很"},{"start":13647.32,"end":13649.32,"text":"就是隨著這個"},{"start":13649.32,"end":13651.32,"text":"案件的發展就是我們看到"},{"start":13651.32,"end":13653.32,"text":"就是說一罪一罪"},{"start":13653.32,"end":13655.32,"text":"不二罰的這樣的一個情況"},{"start":13655.32,"end":13657.32,"text":"到最後有可能"},{"start":13657.32,"end":13659.32,"text":"就只有罰一樣"},{"start":13659.32,"end":13661.32,"text":"可能很多民眾會覺得"},{"start":13661.32,"end":13663.32,"text":"對於這個食用有的"},{"start":13663.32,"end":13665.32,"text":"這個安全如果到最後是"},{"start":13665.32,"end":13667.32,"text":"輕輕放下的話其實很多人"},{"start":13667.32,"end":13669.32,"text":"可能會沒辦法接受"},{"start":13669.32,"end":13671.32,"text":"因為只有一罪不兩罰"},{"start":13671.32,"end":13673.32,"text":"像類似這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":13673.32,"end":13675.32,"text":"所以我覺得說未來這個"},{"start":13675.32,"end":13677.32,"text":"這個食安法的這個修法"},{"start":13677.32,"end":13679.32,"text":"其實我覺得應該也是"},{"start":13679.32,"end":13681.32,"text":"我們未來在我們衛環委員會"},{"start":13681.32,"end":13683.32,"text":"本身就要去做的事情"},{"start":13683.32,"end":13685.32,"text":"如果今天再次的"},{"start":13685.32,"end":13687.32,"text":"當然要釐清責任這個沒有問題"},{"start":13687.32,"end":13689.32,"text":"釐清原因"},{"start":13689.32,"end":13691.32,"text":"釐清責任我覺得這個"},{"start":13691.32,"end":13693.32,"text":"都沒有問題可是最重要"},{"start":13693.32,"end":13695.32,"text":"就是我們最終還是要把這部法"},{"start":13695.32,"end":13697.32,"text":"再修的更嚴謹一點"},{"start":13697.32,"end":13699.32,"text":"如果按照目前的狀況"},{"start":13699.32,"end":13701.32,"text":"來看那台糖"},{"start":13701.32,"end":13703.32,"text":"他根本就沒有通報"},{"start":13703.32,"end":13705.32,"text":"的這個義務跟責任"},{"start":13705.32,"end":13707.32,"text":"如果以法來講"},{"start":13707.32,"end":13709.32,"text":"是這樣子嗎"},{"start":13709.32,"end":13711.32,"text":"目前的法是這樣所以如果"},{"start":13711.32,"end":13713.32,"text":"大家覺得"},{"start":13713.32,"end":13715.32,"text":"要再擴大這個通報"},{"start":13715.32,"end":13717.32,"text":"的義務更嚴格"},{"start":13717.32,"end":13719.32,"text":"的通報義務這個其實可以"},{"start":13719.32,"end":13721.32,"text":"在後續修法的時候大家討論"},{"start":13721.32,"end":13723.32,"text":"好那我也希望就是說"},{"start":13723.32,"end":13725.32,"text":"在衛環委員會"},{"start":13725.32,"end":13727.32,"text":"所有的委員應該就是"},{"start":13727.32,"end":13729.32,"text":"就事論事然後就整個"},{"start":13729.32,"end":13731.32,"text":"這個目前的這個狀況"},{"start":13731.32,"end":13733.32,"text":"應該儘速來修法"},{"start":13733.32,"end":13735.32,"text":"既然從七月"},{"start":13735.32,"end":13737.32,"text":"我記得我第一次質詢的時候"},{"start":13737.32,"end":13739.32,"text":"是在七月好像是"},{"start":13739.32,"end":13741.32,"text":"七月三號還是四號"},{"start":13741.32,"end":13743.32,"text":"那時候剛發生的時候我就在"},{"start":13743.32,"end":13745.32,"text":"這個質詢台上面就有問過"},{"start":13745.32,"end":13747.32,"text":"部長那到現在"},{"start":13747.32,"end":13749.32,"text":"也將近一個月的時間"},{"start":13749.32,"end":13751.32,"text":"我也相信就是說這個"},{"start":13751.32,"end":13753.32,"text":"衛福部或食藥署那相關的"},{"start":13753.32,"end":13755.32,"text":"部會大家也很積極"},{"start":13755.32,"end":13757.32,"text":"就是希望能夠把這個事情趕快"},{"start":13757.32,"end":13759.32,"text":"釐清清楚那我"},{"start":13759.32,"end":13761.32,"text":"也不希望就是說這件事情"},{"start":13761.32,"end":13763.32,"text":"一直延燒下去"},{"start":13763.32,"end":13765.32,"text":"那一般的民眾一般"},{"start":13765.32,"end":13767.32,"text":"的其實我在地方跑"},{"start":13767.32,"end":13769.32,"text":"其實他們會覺得把"},{"start":13769.32,"end":13771.32,"text":"事情釐清把責任釐清"},{"start":13771.32,"end":13773.32,"text":"之後那未來不要再有"},{"start":13773.32,"end":13775.32,"text":"這樣的一個事情發生其實這個"},{"start":13775.32,"end":13777.32,"text":"發生的時候我你"},{"start":13777.32,"end":13779.32,"text":"部長你知道就是說"},{"start":13779.32,"end":13781.32,"text":"不僅是消費者"},{"start":13781.32,"end":13783.32,"text":"還有一些我們的"},{"start":13783.32,"end":13785.32,"text":"製造食品的這個加工業者"},{"start":13785.32,"end":13787.32,"text":"其實影響也都非常的大"},{"start":13787.32,"end":13789.32,"text":"所以我們希望"},{"start":13789.32,"end":13791.32,"text":"就是未來不要再有類似"},{"start":13791.32,"end":13793.32,"text":"的狀況發生"},{"start":13793.32,"end":13795.32,"text":"那這件事情我們希望"},{"start":13795.32,"end":13797.32,"text":"從這個地方政府"},{"start":13797.32,"end":13799.32,"text":"中央政府大家都有責任"},{"start":13799.32,"end":13801.32,"text":"也不要再去追究說"},{"start":13801.32,"end":13803.32,"text":"誰的責任大誰的責任小"},{"start":13803.32,"end":13805.32,"text":"不需要那目前就是我們"},{"start":13805.3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"end":14897.59,"text":"台中你是最老牌的"},{"start":14897.59,"end":14899.59,"text":"我們對你有絕對的信心"},{"start":14899.59,"end":14901.59,"text":"不要做到我們被虛廢編撥"},{"start":14901.59,"end":14903.59,"text":"真的是對不起國人"},{"start":14903.59,"end":14905.59,"text":"市長我這樣強具體建議"},{"start":14905.59,"end":14907.59,"text":"我總執行要再問他"},{"start":14907.59,"end":14909.59,"text":"感謝威元"},{"start":14914.19,"end":14916.19,"text":"好,謝謝蘇貞前委員"},{"start":14916.19,"end":14918.19,"text":"下一位請我們"},{"start":14918.46,"end":14920.46,"text":"下一位鄉委員"},{"start":14929.93,"end":14931.93,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":14931.93,"end":14933.93,"text":"那有請石崇良部長"},{"start":14933.93,"end":14935.93,"text":"還有江志剛署長"},{"start":14935.93,"end":14939.93,"text":"以及那個賴建信常務次長"},{"start":14939.93,"end":14943.93,"text":"還有我們食安辦的許甫主任"},{"start":14944.18,"end":14946.18,"text":"調人好"},{"start":14945.71,"end":14947.71,"text":"部長好,部長我想要先問你"},{"start":14947.71,"end":14949.71,"text":"石部長"},{"start":14949.44,"end":14951.44,"text":"今天我看到中石有刊載出來"},{"start":14951.44,"end":14955.44,"text":"你們20%的決策的會議記錄"},{"start":14955.63,"end":14957.63,"text":"那我是想要請問一下"},{"start":14958.39,"end":14960.39,"text":"到底有沒有分上下半場"},{"start":14960.55,"end":14962.55,"text":"你前面上次你說有分上下半場"},{"start":14962.55,"end":14964.55,"text":"對不對"},{"start":14963.99,"end":14965.99,"text":"他是兩個議題"},{"start":14965.99,"end":14967.99,"text":"就是上半場第一個議題"},{"start":14967.99,"end":14971.99,"text":"是在就這個中聯的事件進行了解"},{"start":14971.99,"end":14973.99,"text":"那請問你上下半場你上次是說"},{"start":14973.99,"end":14975.99,"text":"這個廠商是什麼時候獵食"},{"start":14977.2,"end":14979.2,"text":"跟委員說因為這個會議不是"},{"start":14979.2,"end":14981.2,"text":"我沒有出席"},{"start":14981.2,"end":14983.2,"text":"那我是看這個會議的這個發言"},{"start":14983.2,"end":14987.2,"text":"所以這個他進來的時候是上半場進來"},{"start":14989.37,"end":14991.37,"text":"可是我看你們會議記錄"},{"start":14991.37,"end":14993.37,"text":"根本沒有上下半場啊"},{"start":14993.37,"end":14995.37,"text":"你這個到底怎麼來的"},{"start":14995.37,"end":14997.37,"text":"那部長你要不要老實一點"},{"start":14997.37,"end":14999.37,"text":"我的理解是兩個議題啦"},{"start":14999.37,"end":15001.37,"text":"就是上半場下半場"},{"start":15001.37,"end":15003.37,"text":"部長我真的很擔心耶"},{"start":15003.31,"end":15007.31,"text":"今天要嘛是你一直在找理由推脫"},{"start":15007.31,"end":15009.31,"text":"要嘛是你被架空"},{"start":15009.69,"end":15011.69,"text":"因為我看到這個會議記錄"},{"start":15011.69,"end":15013.69,"text":"我覺得蠻神奇的"},{"start":15013.69,"end":15015.69,"text":"公布了名單之後啊"},{"start":15015.69,"end":15017.69,"text":"我發現重點好像不只是誰出席了"},{"start":15017.69,"end":15019.69,"text":"而是誰沒有出席"},{"start":15019.27,"end":15023.27,"text":"那我發現你們衛福部的本部沒有派人出席啊"},{"start":15023.61,"end":15025.61,"text":"你們衛福部本部沒有人耶"},{"start":15026.36,"end":15028.36,"text":"部長過去我們在開協調會的時候啊"},{"start":15028.36,"end":15030.36,"text":"我常常我覺得你是"},{"start":15030.36,"end":15032.36,"text":"也算是親力親為喔"},{"start":15032.36,"end":15034.36,"text":"很多協調會你都很重視"},{"start":15034.36,"end":15035.36,"text":"你也會出席"},{"start":15035.36,"end":15037.36,"text":"或是至少你部本部會派一個人"},{"start":15037.36,"end":15039.36,"text":"至少派個記政派個公務員"},{"start":15039.36,"end":15041.36,"text":"都要到場"},{"start":15041.36,"end":15043.36,"text":"結果這場會議你們本部沒有派一個人啊"},{"start":15044.01,"end":15046.01,"text":"然後事後發生了之後"},{"start":15046.01,"end":15048.01,"text":"我看你就一直要幫忙解釋"},{"start":15048.01,"end":15050.01,"text":"一直要幫忙拆彈"},{"start":15049.48,"end":15051.48,"text":"那你到底是"},{"start":15051.48,"end":15053.48,"text":"不知道不知情還是事後"},{"start":15053.48,"end":15055.48,"text":"一直想要找理由"},{"start":15055.48,"end":15057.48,"text":"然後所以才講出很荒唐有上下半場"},{"start":15057.48,"end":15059.48,"text":"可是剛剛我聽到徐福主任說"},{"start":15059.48,"end":15061.48,"text":"是一整場對不對"},{"start":15061.48,"end":15063.48,"text":"一整場嘛那這個"},{"start":15063.48,"end":15065.48,"text":"這個廠商也是一整場練習嘛對不對"},{"start":15065.48,"end":15067.48,"text":"對徐福主任也點頭嘛"},{"start":15067.82,"end":15069.82,"text":"其實這是現在政府讓人家"},{"start":15069.82,"end":15071.82,"text":"最擔心的地方"},{"start":15071.82,"end":15073.82,"text":"就是出了事之後"},{"start":15073.82,"end":15075.82,"text":"好像用掰的"},{"start":15075.82,"end":15077.82,"text":"然後你講到底有還是沒有"},{"start":15077.39,"end":15079.39,"text":"所以我剛剛就講了上面有食安辦有派人"},{"start":15079.39,"end":15081.39,"text":"下面食藥署有人"},{"start":15081.39,"end":15083.39,"text":"廠商也有派人"},{"start":15083.39,"end":15085.39,"text":"那就你們本部沒有派人"},{"start":15085.52,"end":15087.52,"text":"所以"},{"start":15086.57,"end":15088.57,"text":"你們當初你根本沒有人可以"},{"start":15088.57,"end":15090.57,"text":"還原會議室內的狀況"},{"start":15090.57,"end":15092.57,"text":"那你當時有意見你也不能講"},{"start":15092.57,"end":15094.57,"text":"然後你事後又要說你覺得"},{"start":15094.57,"end":15096.57,"text":"這個決策很奇怪"},{"start":15097.28,"end":15099.28,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":15099.28,"end":15101.28,"text":"這個是食安專家的會議"},{"start":15101.28,"end":15103.28,"text":"這是一個食安專家的會議"},{"start":15103.28,"end":15105.28,"text":"那你到底知不知情"},{"start":15105.28,"end":15107.28,"text":"開會的時候你知不知情"},{"start":15107.28,"end":15109.28,"text":"我知道開這場會議"},{"start":15109.28,"end":15111.28,"text":"事前還是事後"},{"start":15111.28,"end":15113.28,"text":"事前我當然知道他有開這個會議"},{"start":15113.28,"end":15115.28,"text":"那你怎麼沒有派人"},{"start":15115.28,"end":15117.28,"text":"那因為過去"},{"start":15117.28,"end":15119.28,"text":"食安的相關會議"},{"start":15119.28,"end":15121.28,"text":"都是在食藥署這邊召開"},{"start":15121.28,"end":15123.28,"text":"並沒有我們部"},{"start":15123.28,"end":15125.28,"text":"本部都不用派一個人"},{"start":15125.28,"end":15127.28,"text":"這個以往就是慣例"},{"start":15127.28,"end":15129.28,"text":"各項食安的風險評估會議"},{"start":15129.28,"end":15131.28,"text":"都是這樣"},{"start":15131.28,"end":15133.28,"text":"這個慣例也很奇怪"},{"start":15133.28,"end":15135.28,"text":"這個東西部本部派一個人"},{"start":15135.28,"end":15137.28,"text":"練習知道發生什麼事"},{"start":15137.28,"end":15139.28,"text":"食藥署知道發生什麼事"},{"start":15139.28,"end":15141.28,"text":"不是很正常的事"},{"start":15141.28,"end":15143.28,"text":"因為這個是定位在一個食安的專家會議"},{"start":15143.28,"end":15145.28,"text":"所以你知道看起來是怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":15145.28,"end":15147.28,"text":"看起來我今天看到會議紀錄的時候"},{"start":15146.32,"end":15148.32,"text":"部本部沒有派人"},{"start":15148.32,"end":15150.32,"text":"然後看起來好像部長好像不知情"},{"start":15150.32,"end":15152.32,"text":"然後事後今天來在這裡質詢台上"},{"start":15152.32,"end":15154.32,"text":"大家質疑你"},{"start":15154.32,"end":15156.32,"text":"然後你一直解釋"},{"start":15156.13,"end":15158.13,"text":"好那我想要請教一下這個"},{"start":15158.13,"end":15160.13,"text":"我們請一下江志剛署長好了"},{"start":15161.75,"end":15163.75,"text":"署長我想要請教一下"},{"start":15163.75,"end":15165.75,"text":"這個你剛剛有說會議紀錄是"},{"start":15165.75,"end":15167.75,"text":"這20%只是建議是不是"},{"start":15168.66,"end":15170.66,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":15170.66,"end":15172.66,"text":"這個會議裡面其實"},{"start":15172.66,"end":15174.66,"text":"你告訴我我剛剛聽到你講說這只是專家建議"},{"start":15174.66,"end":15176.66,"text":"對對"},{"start":15176.66,"end":15178.66,"text":"獨立跟現在遇到的"},{"start":15178.66,"end":15180.66,"text":"BAP沒關係署長你"},{"start":15180.66,"end":15182.66,"text":"就回答我你是不是說這個會議的"},{"start":15182.66,"end":15184.66,"text":"專家只是建議專家裡面"},{"start":15184.66,"end":15186.66,"text":"說明討論完會有"},{"start":15186.66,"end":15188.66,"text":"結論是什麼樣的結論"},{"start":15188.66,"end":15190.66,"text":"結論是建議嗎"},{"start":15190.66,"end":15192.66,"text":"那是誰學測20%"},{"start":15192.66,"end":15194.66,"text":"結論這整體的結論"},{"start":15194.66,"end":15196.66,"text":"之後我們針對這個結論之後進一步"},{"start":15196.66,"end":15198.66,"text":"的去研議"},{"start":15198.66,"end":15200.66,"text":"是誰決測的"},{"start":15200.66,"end":15202.66,"text":"是誰決測這20%"},{"start":15202.66,"end":15204.66,"text":"這個決測是整個專家會議"},{"start":15204.66,"end":15206.66,"text":"確定下來的結果"},{"start":15206.66,"end":15208.66,"text":"可是你剛剛又說建議到底是誰決測"},{"start":15208.66,"end":15210.66,"text":"因為你們這樣推來推去我也覺得專家學者很衰"},{"start":15210.66,"end":15212.66,"text":"好像都沒有"},{"start":15212.66,"end":15214.66,"text":"行政官員的事誰決測也不講"},{"start":15214.66,"end":15216.66,"text":"最後說這是專家會議決測的"},{"start":15216.66,"end":15218.66,"text":"到底是決測還是建議"},{"start":15219.04,"end":15221.04,"text":"署長可以回答嗎"},{"start":15221.04,"end":15223.04,"text":"署長等一下我先問署長"},{"start":15223.04,"end":15225.04,"text":"因為你不在場你當天不在場"},{"start":15225.4,"end":15227.4,"text":"是他們整體的結論是這個"},{"start":15227.4,"end":15229.4,"text":"結論是這個"},{"start":15229.4,"end":15231.4,"text":"但是總是有個行政官員要決測"},{"start":15231.4,"end":15233.4,"text":"對結論是這個"},{"start":15233.4,"end":15235.4,"text":"有這個結論結論之後"},{"start":15235.4,"end":15237.4,"text":"其實在行政裡面"},{"start":15237.4,"end":15239.4,"text":"長官跟情職都有去了解這個內容"},{"start":15239.4,"end":15241.4,"text":"你不能講誰決測的話"},{"start":15241.4,"end":15243.4,"text":"我問一下那個學府主任"},{"start":15243.59,"end":15245.59,"text":"請問你當天在現場他到底是建議還是決測"},{"start":15245.59,"end":15247.59,"text":"那是誰決測"},{"start":15247.59,"end":15249.59,"text":"好這個"},{"start":15249.59,"end":15251.59,"text":"專家會議的功能是一個"},{"start":15251.59,"end":15253.59,"text":"建議性質"},{"start":15253.59,"end":15255.59,"text":"政策上面該怎麼做"},{"start":15255.59,"end":15257.59,"text":"並不是在"},{"start":15257.59,"end":15259.59,"text":"專家講了就怎麼算"},{"start":15259.59,"end":15261.59,"text":"所以在"},{"start":15261.59,"end":15263.59,"text":"就像署長剛剛講的"},{"start":15263.59,"end":15265.59,"text":"在會議上面是"},{"start":15265.59,"end":15267.59,"text":"是有"},{"start":15266.35,"end":15268.35,"text":"有結論"},{"start":15268.35,"end":15270.35,"text":"然後作為主管機關參考"},{"start":15270.35,"end":15272.35,"text":"就是作為我們政府機關的"},{"start":15272.35,"end":15274.35,"text":"參考所以今天像"},{"start":15274.35,"end":15276.35,"text":"報宅也有講說"},{"start":15276.35,"end":15278.35,"text":"有議策說是不是"},{"start":15278.35,"end":15280.35,"text":"院長有指示"},{"start":15280.35,"end":15282.35,"text":"事實上完全沒有"},{"start":15282.35,"end":15284.35,"text":"那到底是誰決測的"},{"start":15284.35,"end":15286.35,"text":"你講了一大半天你沒有講誰決測"},{"start":15286.35,"end":15288.35,"text":"所以你石安辦"},{"start":15288.35,"end":15290.35,"text":"從頭到尾代表行政院你在現場"},{"start":15290.35,"end":15292.35,"text":"你也代表行政院最高的"},{"start":15292.35,"end":15294.35,"text":"跨部會協調的"},{"start":15294.35,"end":15296.35,"text":"這個單位"},{"start":15296.35,"end":15298.35,"text":"所以誰決測的你"},{"start":15298.35,"end":15300.35,"text":"不能夠承擔"},{"start":15300.35,"end":15302.35,"text":"沒有決測"},{"start":15302.35,"end":15304.35,"text":"所以後續是誰決測就是署長"},{"start":15304.35,"end":15306.35,"text":"自己講的"},{"start":15306.3,"end":15308.3,"text":"是署長決測的嗎"},{"start":15308.3,"end":15310.3,"text":"還是行政院院長知道"},{"start":15311.21,"end":15313.21,"text":"這部分其實都有跟我們"},{"start":15313.21,"end":15315.21,"text":"部裡面的內部都有做報告"},{"start":15315.21,"end":15317.21,"text":"那你也有跟行政院報告對不對"},{"start":15317.76,"end":15319.76,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":15319.76,"end":15321.76,"text":"按石安法中央主管機關就是衛福部"},{"start":15321.76,"end":15323.76,"text":"所以這個專家所做出的決議"},{"start":15323.76,"end":15325.76,"text":"大家的共識"},{"start":15325.76,"end":15327.76,"text":"就作為我們"},{"start":15327.76,"end":15329.76,"text":"後續在處理"},{"start":15329.76,"end":15331.76,"text":"各項的預防性下架的"},{"start":15331.76,"end":15333.76,"text":"一個決測的參考"},{"start":15335.17,"end":15337.17,"text":"那對阿"},{"start":15337.17,"end":15339.17,"text":"但是你們還是沒有告訴我誰決測"},{"start":15339.17,"end":15341.17,"text":"部長那我想請問"},{"start":15341.17,"end":15343.17,"text":"因為當初你也講說你覺得這個決測怪怪的"},{"start":15343.17,"end":15345.17,"text":"那你是一個醫者"},{"start":15345.17,"end":15347.17,"text":"醫者良心"},{"start":15347.17,"end":15349.17,"text":"那以國人的石安最高標準的話"},{"start":15349.17,"end":15351.17,"text":"如果你當場當初在這個會議"},{"start":15351.17,"end":15353.17,"text":"之後你還會做出"},{"start":15353.17,"end":15355.17,"text":"這種20%以下不用下架的決定嗎"},{"start":15355.17,"end":15357.17,"text":"我想還原一下"},{"start":15357.17,"end":15359.17,"text":"因為一開始是只有"},{"start":15359.17,"end":15361.17,"text":"第一層的油品下架"},{"start":15361.17,"end":15363.17,"text":"那個是106年的時候"},{"start":15363.17,"end":15365.17,"text":"那當時我說我覺得怪怪的是因為"},{"start":15365.17,"end":15367.17,"text":"有一些即使是"},{"start":15367.17,"end":15369.17,"text":"第二層的油品"},{"start":15369.17,"end":15371.17,"text":"第二層的加工食品"},{"start":15371.17,"end":15373.17,"text":"他還是會以油的形式主戰"},{"start":15373.17,"end":15375.17,"text":"部長你沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":15375.17,"end":15377.17,"text":"你不用再解釋"},{"start":15377.17,"end":15379.17,"text":"專家會議把它擴大"},{"start":15379.17,"end":15381.17,"text":"我只是一直很好奇"},{"start":15381.17,"end":15383.17,"text":"第一個你部本部沒派人"},{"start":15383.17,"end":15385.17,"text":"你也不曉得當場的狀況"},{"start":15385.17,"end":15387.17,"text":"然後事後你又要一直找一堆東西來解釋"},{"start":15387.17,"end":15389.17,"text":"來收尾"},{"start":15389.17,"end":15391.17,"text":"我很想要知道到底是誰決測的"},{"start":15391.17,"end":15393.17,"text":"那我現在有請經濟部次長"},{"start":15394.86,"end":15396.86,"text":"次長這個台糖自己也公佈說"},{"start":15396.86,"end":15398.86,"text":"5月11日這個前往"},{"start":15398.86,"end":15400.86,"text":"中聯有指的這個"},{"start":15400.86,"end":15402.86,"text":"風潮採樣反正他的"},{"start":15402.86,"end":15404.86,"text":"報告就是超標啦"},{"start":15404.86,"end":15406.86,"text":"好那現在之後"},{"start":15406.86,"end":15408.86,"text":"這個又向廠商"},{"start":15408.86,"end":15410.86,"text":"陸續收了兩百"},{"start":15410.91,"end":15414.91,"text":"兩百一二零一萬的四千公斤的原料啦"},{"start":15414.91,"end":15416.91,"text":"那但是經濟部後來"},{"start":15416.91,"end":15418.91,"text":"又在說什麼這就像是"},{"start":15418.91,"end":15420.91,"text":"餐廳採購人員在菜市場"},{"start":15420.91,"end":15422.91,"text":"看到爛菜葉不需要什麼都通報"},{"start":15424.49,"end":15426.49,"text":"我想要請問一下這是經濟部的官方立場嗎"},{"start":15428.19,"end":15430.19,"text":"首先跟委員報告"},{"start":15430.46,"end":15432.46,"text":"那經濟部對於台糖公司"},{"start":15432.94,"end":15434.94,"text":"他履行合約"},{"start":15434.94,"end":15436.94,"text":"履行法規這是經濟部"},{"start":15436.94,"end":15438.94,"text":"一直是要求我們國營事業是如此"},{"start":15438.94,"end":15440.94,"text":"但為什麼你們經濟部當初要這樣子講"},{"start":15440.94,"end":15442.94,"text":"基本上5月15日"},{"start":15442.94,"end":15444.94,"text":"通過第三方的"},{"start":15444.94,"end":15446.94,"text":"驗證報告"},{"start":15446.94,"end":15448.94,"text":"認為這一批的原料"},{"start":15448.94,"end":15450.94,"text":"你們經濟部這句話我講給你聽"},{"start":15450.94,"end":15452.94,"text":"這個是不倫不類的比喻"},{"start":15452.94,"end":15454.94,"text":"中聯不是路邊的"},{"start":15454.94,"end":15456.94,"text":"陌生攤販是國內的"},{"start":15456.94,"end":15458.94,"text":"黃豆加工跟食用油紙"},{"start":15458.94,"end":15460.94,"text":"的大型製造商"},{"start":15460.94,"end":15462.94,"text":"台糖是國營企業也不是餐廳的採購"},{"start":15462.94,"end":15464.94,"text":"那現在經濟部"},{"start":15464.94,"end":15466.94,"text":"用這個隱喻失當"},{"start":15466.94,"end":15468.94,"text":"所以你現在還是認為說"},{"start":15468.94,"end":15470.94,"text":"這個沒有義務通報毒油台糖是"},{"start":15470.94,"end":15472.94,"text":"高標準的乖寶寶嗎"},{"start":15472.94,"end":15474.94,"text":"然後第二個我想要請教一下"},{"start":15474.94,"end":15476.94,"text":"哪一種青菜啊"},{"start":15476.5,"end":15478.5,"text":"會產生本扁皮"},{"start":15478.5,"end":15480.5,"text":"你把腐爛的菜葉比喻成"},{"start":15480.5,"end":15482.5,"text":"這個致癌的物質"},{"start":15482.5,"end":15484.5,"text":"請問有科學根據嗎還是有專家"},{"start":15484.5,"end":15486.5,"text":"會議嗎腐爛的菜葉"},{"start":15486.5,"end":15488.5,"text":"就像是九評芝麻館裡面講的一樣"},{"start":15488.5,"end":15490.5,"text":"那也很明顯就是長那個樣子"},{"start":15490.5,"end":15492.5,"text":"當然一般人不會吃嘛"},{"start":15492.5,"end":15494.5,"text":"但是本扁皮是沒有辦法知道的"},{"start":15494.5,"end":15496.5,"text":"沒有辦法肉眼分出來的"},{"start":15496.5,"end":15498.5,"text":"是不是次長你這個部分你有沒有覺得"},{"start":15498.5,"end":15500.5,"text":"你們當初的這個比喻是隱喻失當"},{"start":15500.5,"end":15502.5,"text":"首先跟委員說明"},{"start":15502.5,"end":15504.5,"text":"不符合台糖允說標準的"},{"start":15504.5,"end":15506.5,"text":"材料這些材料都還在"},{"start":15506.5,"end":15508.5,"text":"這個中聯的311廠"},{"start":15509.54,"end":15511.54,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":15512.93,"end":15514.93,"text":"這個所謂的這個"},{"start":15514.93,"end":15516.93,"text":"這個我都知道喔"},{"start":15516.93,"end":15518.93,"text":"這個出膠原油的"},{"start":15518.93,"end":15520.93,"text":"事實上它的用途啊"},{"start":15520.93,"end":15522.93,"text":"包括是工業的添加劑也好"},{"start":15522.93,"end":15524.93,"text":"或是說是製造潤滑油"},{"start":15524.93,"end":15526.93,"text":"製造肥皂都好"},{"start":15526.93,"end":15528.93,"text":"你講到這個我就馬上想要打臉你了"},{"start":15528.93,"end":15530.93,"text":"剛剛台糖的人就說他們拿這個"},{"start":15530.93,"end":15532.93,"text":"出膠原油就是要來做他們"},{"start":15532.93,"end":15534.93,"text":"大豆沙拉油"},{"start":15534.93,"end":15536.93,"text":"那你這個你等於是想要"},{"start":15537.43,"end":15539.43,"text":"想要把它模糊掉嘛"},{"start":15539.43,"end":15541.43,"text":"當然它可以做很多東西啊"},{"start":15541.43,"end":15543.43,"text":"很多化學物質都可以做很多東西啊"},{"start":15543.43,"end":15545.43,"text":"但是在於台糖的角度"},{"start":15545.43,"end":15547.43,"text":"賣方的提供者他可以去做這些的事情"},{"start":15547.43,"end":15549.43,"text":"那我問你這個中聯油脂"},{"start":15549.43,"end":15551.43,"text":"除了做這個食用油之外"},{"start":15551.43,"end":15553.43,"text":"他有拿去做肥皂嗎"},{"start":15553.43,"end":15555.43,"text":"他也沒有嘛那我想要講的事情"},{"start":15555.43,"end":15557.43,"text":"是針對你們台糖"},{"start":15557.43,"end":15559.43,"text":"他就是拿這個要來做"},{"start":15559.43,"end":15561.43,"text":"大豆沙拉油嘛"},{"start":15561.43,"end":15563.43,"text":"那我就問經濟部這次台糖的事件"},{"start":15563.52,"end":15567.52,"text":"有沒有影響相關產業上下游的事業"},{"start":15567.52,"end":15569.52,"text":"然後還有供需或民生"},{"start":15569.52,"end":15571.52,"text":"你認為這起毒油案有沒有影響到"},{"start":15571.52,"end":15573.52,"text":"台糖的事業形象"},{"start":15574.9,"end":15576.9,"text":"有關於影響到台糖的這個商譽的部分"},{"start":15576.9,"end":15578.9,"text":"因為台糖的產品"},{"start":15578.9,"end":15580.9,"text":"都經過第三方驗證都是合格的"},{"start":15580.9,"end":15582.9,"text":"那現在有一方性下降"},{"start":15582.9,"end":15584.9,"text":"那對未來台糖會"},{"start":15584.9,"end":15586.9,"text":"輕點相關的"},{"start":15586.9,"end":15588.9,"text":"這個這個"},{"start":15588.9,"end":15590.9,"text":"所以市長我就想要請教啊"},{"start":15590.9,"end":15592.9,"text":"市長因為依照經濟部所屬"},{"start":15592.9,"end":15594.9,"text":"事業各類災害及緊急事件的"},{"start":15594.9,"end":15596.9,"text":"速報程序"},{"start":15596.9,"end":15598.9,"text":"第三條第五款第一項跟第二項"},{"start":15598.9,"end":15600.9,"text":"你剛剛也有說這可能會"},{"start":15600.9,"end":15602.9,"text":"可能有這個疑慮啊"},{"start":15602.9,"end":15604.9,"text":"然後未來如果發生這個真的有影響到"},{"start":15604.9,"end":15606.9,"text":"這個事業形象的話"},{"start":15606.9,"end":15608.9,"text":"等等等的"},{"start":15608.9,"end":15610.9,"text":"但是依照你們的那個規定啊"},{"start":15610.9,"end":15612.9,"text":"你們的規則就是說你一小時內"},{"start":15612.9,"end":15614.9,"text":"要通報國營會其他主管機關"},{"start":15614.9,"end":15616.9,"text":"或地方政府"},{"start":15617.51,"end":15619.51,"text":"你覺得這個這個按鍵"},{"start":15619.51,"end":15621.51,"text":"是不是用嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":15621.54,"end":15623.54,"text":"涉及到四大國營企業"},{"start":15623.54,"end":15625.54,"text":"經濟部所管的國營企業"},{"start":15625.54,"end":15627.54,"text":"然後有跟災害防救法"},{"start":15627.54,"end":15629.54,"text":"有關係的所有的"},{"start":15629.54,"end":15631.54,"text":"事故或是意外的話"},{"start":15631.54,"end":15633.54,"text":"他依照這個內部的作業規則"},{"start":15633.54,"end":15635.54,"text":"會去通報"},{"start":15635.54,"end":15637.54,"text":"那你內部有這個作業規則啊"},{"start":15637.54,"end":15639.54,"text":"回到今天這個主題"},{"start":15639.54,"end":15641.54,"text":"台中地方法院已經很清楚的"},{"start":15641.54,"end":15643.54,"text":"在他的八月一號的新聞稿裡面"},{"start":15643.54,"end":15645.54,"text":"有提到當台糖"},{"start":15645.54,"end":15647.54,"text":"驗出來"},{"start":15647.54,"end":15649.54,"text":"退貨第三方這個公證"},{"start":15649.54,"end":15651.54,"text":"驗出來的這個結果的時候"},{"start":15651.54,"end":15653.54,"text":"他有跟福茂講"},{"start":15653.54,"end":15655.54,"text":"而且地方法院也認為說"},{"start":15655.54,"end":15657.54,"text":"包括福茂跟中聯他必須要"},{"start":15657.54,"end":15659.54,"text":"所以我跟你檢討的是這個"},{"start":15659.54,"end":15661.54,"text":"中聯的部分當然他現在調查了"},{"start":15661.54,"end":15663.54,"text":"我跟你檢討的是台糖他知道這個事情"},{"start":15663.54,"end":15665.54,"text":"如果他當時就依照你們的程序通報"},{"start":15665.54,"end":15667.54,"text":"他是有可能讓這件事情"},{"start":15667.54,"end":15669.54,"text":"提早發現的"},{"start":15669.68,"end":15671.68,"text":"這個部分中央地方國營事業"},{"start":15671.68,"end":15673.68,"text":"這個環節裡面這都是現在要"},{"start":15673.68,"end":15675.68,"text":"檢討的事件所以我剛剛跟你"},{"start":15675.68,"end":15677.68,"text":"講的就是這個點好"},{"start":15677.68,"end":15679.68,"text":"那再來我請一下衛福部長"},{"start":15681.41,"end":15683.41,"text":"部長你自己八月二號的時候"},{"start":15683.41,"end":15685.41,"text":"也才說台糖是為了落實"},{"start":15685.41,"end":15687.41,"text":"HACCP對原料"},{"start":15687.41,"end":15689.41,"text":"出交原油訂出允收"},{"start":15689.41,"end":15691.41,"text":"的檢驗標準對不對"},{"start":15691.41,"end":15693.41,"text":"對嘛對那你自己嘴裡"},{"start":15693.41,"end":15695.41,"text":"都說它是原料啦"},{"start":15695.57,"end":15697.57,"text":"對吧它是原料嘛"},{"start":15697.57,"end":15699.57,"text":"就台糖來講"},{"start":15699.57,"end":15701.57,"text":"那個是它的原料"},{"start":15701.57,"end":15703.57,"text":"對啊它是原料沒有錯嘛"},{"start":15703.57,"end":15705.57,"text":"在你們主管的這個食品"},{"start":15705.57,"end":15707.57,"text":"良好衛生規範準則"},{"start":15707.57,"end":15709.57,"text":"的第三條白紙黑字的"},{"start":15709.57,"end":15711.57,"text":"定義原料是指成品的構成材料"},{"start":15711.57,"end":15713.57,"text":"那出交原油就是"},{"start":15713.57,"end":15715.57,"text":"在台糖來講就是大豆沙拉油的"},{"start":15715.57,"end":15717.57,"text":"成品的構成材料"},{"start":15717.91,"end":15719.91,"text":"那食安法第三條"},{"start":15719.91,"end":15721.91,"text":"用明定的食品包含其原料"},{"start":15721.91,"end":15723.91,"text":"請問部長這個過去"},{"start":15723.91,"end":15725.91,"text":"這個法規對原料的定義"},{"start":15725.91,"end":15727.91,"text":"是很明確的啊那為什麼我剛"},{"start":15727.91,"end":15729.91,"text":"看到你跟很多的委員"},{"start":15729.91,"end":15731.91,"text":"在爭論怎麼到台糖出事這個"},{"start":15731.91,"end":15733.91,"text":"出交原油就剛剛說到好像"},{"start":15733.91,"end":15735.91,"text":"又可以擴大解釋不是"},{"start":15735.91,"end":15737.91,"text":"原料都變成是所謂的半成品"},{"start":15737.91,"end":15739.91,"text":"到底是法律變了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":15739.91,"end":15741.91,"text":"我在跟委員說明"},{"start":15741.91,"end":15743.91,"text":"我們對於不可添加的"},{"start":15743.91,"end":15745.91,"text":"不能檢出的"},{"start":15745.91,"end":15747.91,"text":"不論是在原料"},{"start":15747.91,"end":15749.91,"text":"或者是在產品這個都是違法"},{"start":15749.91,"end":15751.91,"text":"就是通報但是呢"},{"start":15751.91,"end":15753.91,"text":"這個"},{"start":15752.96,"end":15754.96,"text":"貶平比是食品安全衛生標準"},{"start":15754.96,"end":15756.96,"text":"我們所訂的是"},{"start":15756.96,"end":15758.96,"text":"食用油脂的標準"},{"start":15758.96,"end":15760.96,"text":"部長我想請問一下你剛剛有委員"},{"start":15760.96,"end":15762.96,"text":"在問你啦你剛剛有指你剛剛"},{"start":15762.96,"end":15764.96,"text":"是不是有舉例說什麼豬排的"},{"start":15764.96,"end":15766.96,"text":"豬排的這個比喻你可以"},{"start":15766.96,"end":15768.96,"text":"再講一次嗎"},{"start":15768.64,"end":15770.64,"text":"一樣的道理這個"},{"start":15770.64,"end":15772.64,"text":"生豬肉那麼他要做成"},{"start":15772.64,"end":15774.64,"text":"是個豬排他豬排要上市"},{"start":15774.64,"end":15776.64,"text":"所以這個中間呢"},{"start":15777.45,"end":15779.45,"text":"我們管的是你最後這個產品"},{"start":15779.45,"end":15781.45,"text":"不可以有生菌超量"},{"start":15781.56,"end":15783.56,"text":"但是你中間一定會去處理"},{"start":15783.56,"end":15785.56,"text":"所以你不會用"},{"start":15785.56,"end":15787.56,"text":"用生豬肉就來"},{"start":15787.56,"end":15789.56,"text":"就來通報說這個有生菌"},{"start":15789.56,"end":15791.56,"text":"部長我真的是越聽越覺得"},{"start":15791.56,"end":15793.56,"text":"你們事後之後你一直擴大"},{"start":15793.56,"end":15795.56,"text":"用你的行政解釋去幫忙"},{"start":15795.56,"end":15797.56,"text":"捍衛和解釋現在的狀況"},{"start":15797.56,"end":15799.56,"text":"你剛剛講到這個那我問你"},{"start":15799.56,"end":15801.56,"text":"你知道保齡茶室的時候他食物中毒"},{"start":15801.56,"end":15803.56,"text":"的元兇是什麼菌嗎"},{"start":15803.38,"end":15805.38,"text":"他是不是有可能在製作的過程中"},{"start":15805.38,"end":15807.38,"text":"他會造成對人民"},{"start":15807.38,"end":15809.38,"text":"對人民食品安全的"},{"start":15809.38,"end":15811.38,"text":"毒害"},{"start":15810.76,"end":15812.76,"text":"因為他本身就是食品了"},{"start":15812.76,"end":15814.76,"text":"他本身就是食品"},{"start":15814.76,"end":15816.76,"text":"這些菌他在環境裡"},{"start":15816.76,"end":15818.76,"text":"是會發生變化的"},{"start":15818.76,"end":15820.76,"text":"會傷害到我們人民的"},{"start":15820.76,"end":15822.76,"text":"食品安全"},{"start":15822.76,"end":15824.76,"text":"所以我接下來就想要請教一下"},{"start":15824.76,"end":15826.76,"text":"那沒有因為剛剛已經講是原料"},{"start":15826.76,"end":15828.76,"text":"那你們食藥署在2024年"},{"start":15828.76,"end":15830.76,"text":"3月11號的新聞稿裡面"},{"start":15830.76,"end":15832.76,"text":"白紙黑字的也寫著食品業者"},{"start":15832.76,"end":15834.76,"text":"於發現原料或"},{"start":15834.76,"end":15836.76,"text":"產品有危害衛生安全"},{"start":15836.76,"end":15838.76,"text":"之餘應該主動的停止"},{"start":15838.76,"end":15840.76,"text":"製造加工販賣及辦理回收"},{"start":15840.76,"end":15842.76,"text":"並通報主管機關"},{"start":15842.76,"end":15844.76,"text":"這你們白紙黑字講過啦"},{"start":15844.76,"end":15846.76,"text":"所以剛剛講了在台一堂"},{"start":15846.76,"end":15848.76,"text":"的事件裡他算是他的原料"},{"start":15848.76,"end":15850.76,"text":"你剛剛自己也講是他的原料"},{"start":15850.76,"end":15852.76,"text":"那為什麼突然又變來變去"},{"start":15852.76,"end":15854.76,"text":"那到底什麼情況"},{"start":15854.76,"end":15856.76,"text":"要做通報呢"},{"start":15856.76,"end":15858.76,"text":"我們是分成兩類的"},{"start":15858.76,"end":15860.76,"text":"一種是不得添加的"},{"start":15860.76,"end":15862.76,"text":"像蘇丹紅那個是不得添加的"},{"start":15862.76,"end":15864.76,"text":"所以那個沒有問題"},{"start":15864.76,"end":15866.76,"text":"另外是定有標準的"},{"start":15866.76,"end":15868.76,"text":"那你就要看這個標準定在哪裡"},{"start":15868.76,"end":15870.76,"text":"這就是我一直講的嘛"},{"start":15870.76,"end":15872.76,"text":"你現在一直用你的行政權去"},{"start":15872.76,"end":15874.76,"text":"不是在脫交線"},{"start":15874.76,"end":15876.76,"text":"你一直用你的行政權去做這種解釋"},{"start":15876.76,"end":15878.76,"text":"這個白紙黑字"},{"start":15878.76,"end":15880.76,"text":"我們前面已經講出來"},{"start":15880.76,"end":15882.76,"text":"你們當初就已經講過新聞稿"},{"start":15882.76,"end":15884.76,"text":"你就用這一段文字來講就好了"},{"start":15884.76,"end":15886.76,"text":"食品業者發現原料或產品"},{"start":15886.76,"end":15888.76,"text":"有危害衛生安全之餘"},{"start":15888.76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那第二個"},{"start":16072.91,"end":16074.91,"text":"我想要請問一下台中地院"},{"start":16074.91,"end":16076.91,"text":"裁定收押中聯廠長的理由"},{"start":16076.91,"end":16078.91,"text":"就是他5月接獲台糖通知"},{"start":16078.91,"end":16080.91,"text":"超標卻未通報"},{"start":16080.91,"end":16082.91,"text":"那現在經濟部衛福部也對外宣稱說"},{"start":16082.91,"end":16084.91,"text":"原料由依法免通報"},{"start":16084.91,"end":16086.91,"text":"那請問法務部"},{"start":16086.91,"end":16088.91,"text":"偵查進行中"},{"start":16088.91,"end":16090.91,"text":"行政機關發表跟這個"},{"start":16090.91,"end":16092.91,"text":"法院裁定理由相反的法律解釋"},{"start":16092.91,"end":16094.91,"text":"會不會影響偵辦"},{"start":16094.92,"end":16096.92,"text":"那檢察官認定通報義務"},{"start":16096.92,"end":16098.92,"text":"是依食安法的條文還是"},{"start":16098.92,"end":16100.92,"text":"依部會的新聞稿和臉書貼文"},{"start":16100.92,"end":16102.92,"text":"我相信我們檢察機關"},{"start":16102.92,"end":16104.92,"text":"還是會依照法律的規定"},{"start":16104.92,"end":16106.92,"text":"去蒐集證據"},{"start":16106.92,"end":16108.92,"text":"依法偵辦"},{"start":16108.92,"end":16110.92,"text":"不會受到其他的影響"},{"start":16110.92,"end":16112.92,"text":"是 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所以不是用"},{"start":16147.91,"end":16149.91,"text":"食安法第七條第五項的通報"},{"start":16149.91,"end":16151.91,"text":"義務 那部長8月2號的時候說"},{"start":16151.91,"end":16153.91,"text":"這個是針對食用有品 所以他"},{"start":16153.91,"end":16155.91,"text":"不是符合衛生標準的販賣"},{"start":16155.91,"end":16157.91,"text":"之食品 但是你們從頭"},{"start":16157.91,"end":16159.91,"text":"到尾也不敢說他到底是不是"},{"start":16159.91,"end":16161.91,"text":"原料 因為"},{"start":16161.91,"end":16163.91,"text":"在食安法的第三條第一款的白紙黑字寫"},{"start":16163.91,"end":16165.91,"text":"食品是指"},{"start":16165.91,"end":16167.91,"text":"工人飲用或咀嚼之產品"},{"start":16167.91,"end":16169.91,"text":"及其原料 所以我們"},{"start":16169.91,"end":16171.91,"text":"一直在表達的事情是 這個原料"},{"start":16171.91,"end":16173.91,"text":"在第三條的食品"},{"start":16173.91,"end":16175.91,"text":"良好衛生規則準則裡面"},{"start":16175.91,"end":16177.91,"text":"原料是指成品的構成材料"},{"start":16177.91,"end":16179.91,"text":"所以在這個過程當中"},{"start":16179.91,"end":16181.91,"text":"發現的這些事情"},{"start":16181.91,"end":16183.91,"text":"卻沒有主動通報 這其實"},{"start":16183.91,"end":16185.91,"text":"是一件很"},{"start":16185.38,"end":16187.38,"text":"未來真的是一個很大的問題"},{"start":16187.38,"end":16189.38,"text":"所以今天一定要特別提出來 而且"},{"start":16189.38,"end":16191.38,"text":"不應該由行政機關"},{"start":16191.38,"end":16193.38,"text":"自己好像隨便可以"},{"start":16193.38,"end":16195.38,"text":"做這個解釋 我們已經說了"},{"start":16195.38,"end":16197.38,"text":"連主任檢察官"},{"start":16197.38,"end":16199.38,"text":"這樣子的高檢署的主任檢察官"},{"start":16199.38,"end":16201.38,"text":"都認為這個通報是義務"},{"start":16201.38,"end":16203.38,"text":"不是恩惠 我認為這件事情"},{"start":16203.38,"end":16205.38,"text":"真的讓人民看到"},{"start":16205.38,"end":16207.38,"text":"是各部會都在幫忙觀"},{"start":16207.38,"end":16209.38,"text":"觀賞互推諉謝者 這樣子"},{"start":16209.38,"end":16211.38,"text":"一直在違背過去大家"},{"start":16211.38,"end":16213.38,"text":"對於食品安全認為說對於"},{"start":16213.38,"end":16215.38,"text":"人民食品安全的最高標準"},{"start":16215.38,"end":16217.38,"text":"就是零容忍 好 以上謝謝"},{"start":16231.65,"end":16233.65,"text":"好 接下來請土泉籍委員"},{"start":16237.26,"end":16239.26,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請石部長"},{"start":16239.26,"end":16241.26,"text":"跟我們江署長 請石部長"},{"start":16241.26,"end":16243.26,"text":"江署長"},{"start":16244.5,"end":16246.5,"text":"土泉好"},{"start":16246.94,"end":16248.94,"text":"好 部長 那因為這幾天"},{"start":16248.94,"end":16250.94,"text":"我們地檢署查到"},{"start":16250.94,"end":16252.94,"text":"原來台糖早在今年"},{"start":16252.94,"end":16254.94,"text":"五月份就採樣驗出"},{"start":16254.94,"end":16256.94,"text":"中年出油"},{"start":16256.94,"end":16258.94,"text":"含有本便比一級致癌物"},{"start":16258.94,"end":16260.94,"text":"超標七倍 那我相信今天"},{"start":16260.94,"end":16262.94,"text":"大部分都是引到這個問題"},{"start":16262.94,"end":16264.94,"text":"在討論 那請問一下"},{"start":16264.94,"end":16266.94,"text":"部長 那經濟部"},{"start":16266.94,"end":16268.94,"text":"他現在"},{"start":16268.94,"end":16270.94,"text":"跳出來護航說"},{"start":16270.94,"end":16272.94,"text":"台電買的是出油"},{"start":16272.94,"end":16274.94,"text":"還沒有精煉過"},{"start":16274.94,"end":16276.94,"text":"所以不是產品"},{"start":16276.94,"end":16278.94,"text":"沒有通報的義務"},{"start":16278.94,"end":16280.94,"text":"那部長認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":16280.94,"end":16282.94,"text":"當然我們對於這個"},{"start":16282.94,"end":16284.94,"text":"食安我們希望全民"},{"start":16284.94,"end":16286.94,"text":"監督啦 所以來鼓勵通報"},{"start":16286.94,"end":16288.94,"text":"這個都是我們樂見的"},{"start":16288.94,"end":16290.94,"text":"不過如果回到"},{"start":16290.94,"end":16292.94,"text":"這個裁罰的時候"},{"start":16292.94,"end":16294.94,"text":"那麼是不是強制通報的"},{"start":16294.94,"end":16296.94,"text":"義務通報人 那我們就得回到"},{"start":16296.94,"end":16298.94,"text":"法條 那麼我們所訂的"},{"start":16298.94,"end":16300.94,"text":"這個本便比"},{"start":16300.94,"end":16302.94,"text":"2.0PPB是"},{"start":16302.94,"end":16304.94,"text":"針對實用油脂所訂出來"},{"start":16304.94,"end":16306.94,"text":"不是對原料"},{"start":16306.94,"end":16308.94,"text":"也不是對"},{"start":16308.94,"end":16310.94,"text":"這個脫膠原油去訂標準"},{"start":16310.94,"end":16312.94,"text":"所以如果依法論法"},{"start":16312.94,"end":16314.94,"text":"要裁罰的時候"},{"start":16314.94,"end":16316.94,"text":"那當然這個台糖"},{"start":16316.94,"end":16318.94,"text":"他所拿到的"},{"start":16318.94,"end":16320.94,"text":"或者是他驗出的是脫膠原油"},{"start":16320.94,"end":16322.94,"text":"並沒有現在的這個"},{"start":16322.94,"end":16324.94,"text":"安全標準的規定 所以他當然"},{"start":16324.94,"end":16326.94,"text":"依法論法來講"},{"start":16326.94,"end":16328.94,"text":"那當然他是沒有"},{"start":16328.94,"end":16330.94,"text":"這個強制通報的義務"},{"start":16330.94,"end":16332.94,"text":"所以你認為說"},{"start":16332.94,"end":16334.94,"text":"他不是產品"},{"start":16334.94,"end":16336.94,"text":"他目前只是原料"},{"start":16336.94,"end":16338.94,"text":"對不對"},{"start":16338.94,"end":16340.94,"text":"他是中間"},{"start":16340.94,"end":16342.94,"text":"他從黃豆進來"},{"start":16342.94,"end":16344.94,"text":"到做成實用油品之間"},{"start":16344.94,"end":16346.94,"text":"中間的中間產品"},{"start":16346.94,"end":16348.94,"text":"黃豆煉出來的初油"},{"start":16348.94,"end":16350.94,"text":"然後他還要經過脫酸"},{"start":16350.94,"end":16352.94,"text":"脫色脫臭"},{"start":16352.94,"end":16354.94,"text":"才會變成實用油脂"},{"start":16354.94,"end":16356.94,"text":"所以最終的產品還沒有做完"},{"start":16356.94,"end":16358.94,"text":"這個半成品"},{"start":16358.94,"end":16360.94,"text":"那就是原料 準備要去做別的東西"},{"start":16360.94,"end":16362.94,"text":"那所以"},{"start":16362.94,"end":16364.94,"text":"所以"},{"start":16364.94,"end":16366.94,"text":"所以聽剛剛部長講"},{"start":16366.94,"end":16368.94,"text":"部長那時候也有講"},{"start":16368.94,"end":16370.94,"text":"外界要求開法"},{"start":16370.94,"end":16372.94,"text":"是邏輯死亡"},{"start":16372.94,"end":16374.94,"text":"所以部長也認為"},{"start":16374.94,"end":16376.94,"text":"嚴格講起來 如果以法條來講"},{"start":16376.94,"end":16378.94,"text":"台糖是沒有責任"},{"start":16378.94,"end":16380.94,"text":"缺失 所以不需要開法"},{"start":16380.94,"end":16382.94,"text":"你剛剛講的意思就是這樣"},{"start":16382.94,"end":16384.940000000002,"text":"他並沒有違反這個"},{"start":16384.940000000002,"end":16386.940000000002,"text":"食安法第七條的規定"},{"start":16386.94,"end":16388.94,"text":"所以部長認為是"},{"start":16388.94,"end":16390.94,"text":"沒有責任缺失 不需要開法"},{"start":16390.94,"end":16392.94,"text":"那我們直接看一下"},{"start":16392.94,"end":16394.94,"text":"我們食藥署在2025年"},{"start":16394.94,"end":16396.94,"text":"10月份我們有"},{"start":16396.94,"end":16398.94,"text":"修訂"},{"start":16398.46,"end":16400.46,"text":"應訂定食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":16400.46,"end":16402.46,"text":"與辦理檢驗之"},{"start":16402.46,"end":16404.46,"text":"食品業者最低檢驗"},{"start":16404.46,"end":16406.46,"text":"週期及其他相關"},{"start":16406.46,"end":16408.46,"text":"事項 在修正"},{"start":16408.46,"end":16410.46,"text":"公告問答級裡面"},{"start":16410.46,"end":16412.46,"text":"我們有去看了一下"},{"start":16412.46,"end":16414.46,"text":"在應辦理檢驗之食品業者"},{"start":16414.46,"end":16416.46,"text":"最低檢驗週期"},{"start":16416.46,"end":16418.46,"text":"及其他相關事項"},{"start":16418.46,"end":16420.46,"text":"裡面有強制檢驗"},{"start":16420.46,"end":16422.46,"text":"它是共通性問題裡面"},{"start":16422.46,"end":16424.46,"text":"我們把裡面問答級的"},{"start":16424.46,"end":16426.46,"text":"Q2跟Q8"},{"start":16426.46,"end":16428.46,"text":"連起來看"},{"start":16428.46,"end":16430.46,"text":"我們看一下 Q2它明訂"},{"start":16430.7,"end":16432.7,"text":"資本額3000萬以上的"},{"start":16432.7,"end":16434.7,"text":"實用油紙製造工廠"},{"start":16434.7,"end":16436.7,"text":"針對原油 出製原油"},{"start":16437.93,"end":16439.93,"text":"原料 針對原料"},{"start":16439.93,"end":16441.93,"text":"出製原油 直接供"},{"start":16441.93,"end":16443.93,"text":"食用之粗炸原油及"},{"start":16443.93,"end":16445.93,"text":"精製油等階段"},{"start":16445.93,"end":16447.93,"text":"每半年必須強制"},{"start":16447.93,"end":16449.93,"text":"檢驗 這個沒問題"},{"start":16449.93,"end":16451.93,"text":"這都你們自己回覆的"},{"start":16451.93,"end":16453.93,"text":"那在Q8也明訂"},{"start":16453.93,"end":16455.93,"text":"如果強制檢驗報告"},{"start":16455.93,"end":16457.93,"text":"的檢驗結果不符"},{"start":16457.93,"end":16459.93,"text":"規定 業者因採取"},{"start":16459.93,"end":16461.93,"text":"有效改善措施"},{"start":16461.93,"end":16463.93,"text":"做成紀錄"},{"start":16463.93,"end":16465.93,"text":"並依食安法第七條第五項"},{"start":16465.93,"end":16467.93,"text":"規定 於發現產品"},{"start":16467.93,"end":16469.93,"text":"有危害衛生安全"},{"start":16469.93,"end":16471.93,"text":"之餘時"},{"start":16471.93,"end":16473.93,"text":"應通報主管機關"},{"start":16475.26,"end":16477.26,"text":"所以應該要通報主管機關"},{"start":16477.26,"end":16479.26,"text":"有發生危害衛生安全"},{"start":16479.26,"end":16481.26,"text":"之餘時"},{"start":16481.26,"end":16483.26,"text":"對不對"},{"start":16483.26,"end":16485.26,"text":"所以因為你們這一部分"},{"start":16485.26,"end":16487.26,"text":"你們一直說 因為它是產品"},{"start":16487.26,"end":16489.26,"text":"產品才要通知"},{"start":16489.26,"end":16491.26,"text":"那如果原料在這邊是沒有"},{"start":16491.26,"end":16493.26,"text":"包含 所以是產品才要通知"},{"start":16493.26,"end":16495.26,"text":"但是不一樣"},{"start":16495.26,"end":16497.26,"text":"因為我們這個有"},{"start":16497.26,"end":16499.26,"text":"訂安全標準"},{"start":16499.26,"end":16501.26,"text":"訂的安全標準是針對產品"},{"start":16501.26,"end":16503.26,"text":"訂的安全標準 那它就"},{"start":16503.26,"end":16505.26,"text":"通報就是超出我們"},{"start":16505.26,"end":16507.26,"text":"訂的安全標準的時候"},{"start":16507.26,"end":16509.26,"text":"因為你們前面 我有聽"},{"start":16509.26,"end":16511.26,"text":"你們一直針對就是說產品"},{"start":16511.26,"end":16513.26,"text":"你們是針對產品在圍繞"},{"start":16513.26,"end":16515.26,"text":"可是後來我們又查了一下"},{"start":16515.26,"end":16517.26,"text":"今天"},{"start":16517.26,"end":16519.26,"text":"很多委員有提到"},{"start":16519.26,"end":16521.26,"text":"2024年3月11號"},{"start":16521.26,"end":16523.26,"text":"食藥署自己發布的新聞稿"},{"start":16523.26,"end":16525.26,"text":"那我再說一遍 今天很多委員都有提"},{"start":16525.26,"end":16527.26,"text":"說食品業者"},{"start":16527.26,"end":16529.26,"text":"在發現原料或產品"},{"start":16529.26,"end":16531.26,"text":"有危害衛生安全"},{"start":16531.26,"end":16533.26,"text":"之餘時 要通報主管機關"},{"start":16533.26,"end":16535.26,"text":"所以"},{"start":16535.26,"end":16537.26,"text":"食藥署在這一部分"},{"start":16537.26,"end":16539.26,"text":"不是只有產品"},{"start":16539.26,"end":16541.26,"text":"針對原料有危害衛生安全"},{"start":16541.26,"end":16543.26,"text":"之餘時"},{"start":16543.26,"end":16545.26,"text":"要通報主管機關"},{"start":16545.26,"end":16547.26,"text":"這一部分 我相信今天"},{"start":16547.26,"end":16549.26,"text":"很多的委員都提到"},{"start":16549.26,"end":16551.26,"text":"不是產品 也包含原料"},{"start":16551.6,"end":16553.6,"text":"那當然還有另外一個喔"},{"start":16553.6,"end":16555.6,"text":"在三天以後"},{"start":16555.6,"end":16557.6,"text":"在2024年3月14號"},{"start":16558.24,"end":16560.24,"text":"行政院食安辦公室"},{"start":16560.24,"end":16562.24,"text":"自己也說"},{"start":16562.24,"end":16564.24,"text":"食品業者要加強自主管理"},{"start":16564.24,"end":16566.24,"text":"確認原料安全性"},{"start":16566.24,"end":16568.24,"text":"確認原料安全性"},{"start":16568.24,"end":16570.24,"text":"同時如果有異常"},{"start":16570.24,"end":16572.24,"text":"就因主動通報機關"},{"start":16572.24,"end":16574.24,"text":"所以這個是"},{"start":16574.24,"end":16576.24,"text":"食藥署跟食安辦公室"},{"start":16576.24,"end":16578.24,"text":"我們自己對外"},{"start":16578.24,"end":16580.24,"text":"發的新聞稿"},{"start":16580.24,"end":16582.24,"text":"這一部分沒有問題"},{"start":16582.24,"end":16584.24,"text":"所以針對"},{"start":16584.24,"end":16586.24,"text":"所以不是產品"},{"start":16586.24,"end":16588.24,"text":"原料的部分你們也都認同"},{"start":16588.24,"end":16590.24,"text":"就是應該要通報"},{"start":16590.24,"end":16592.24,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":16592.24,"end":16594.24,"text":"那為什麼"},{"start":16593.71,"end":16595.71,"text":"到台糖這件事情"},{"start":16596.14,"end":16598.14,"text":"就轉彎"},{"start":16597.44,"end":16599.44,"text":"原料不用通報"},{"start":16599.44,"end":16601.44,"text":"還是跟委員說明"},{"start":16601.44,"end":16603.44,"text":"我們當時候擴大要求原料"},{"start":16603.44,"end":16605.44,"text":"要通報是因為"},{"start":16605.44,"end":16607.44,"text":"有一些不得添加的東西出現"},{"start":16607.44,"end":16609.44,"text":"那不得添加"},{"start":16609.44,"end":16611.44,"text":"是沒有標準的 是零檢出的"},{"start":16611.44,"end":16613.44,"text":"所以這個都要求通報"},{"start":16613.44,"end":16615.44,"text":"這個是為了確保"},{"start":16615.44,"end":16617.44,"text":"從上游到下游所有的"},{"start":16617.44,"end":16619.44,"text":"食品加工鏈的安全"},{"start":16619.44,"end":16621.44,"text":"這個是 我相信"},{"start":16621.44,"end":16623.44,"text":"這個委員也是認同的"},{"start":16623.44,"end":16625.44,"text":"但是我們今天談的"},{"start":16625.44,"end":16627.44,"text":"安全標準的"},{"start":16627.44,"end":16629.44,"text":"而我們訂的安全標準"},{"start":16629.44,"end":16631.44,"text":"訂的是食用油脂"},{"start":16631.44,"end":16633.44,"text":"不是在中間的產品"},{"start":16633.44,"end":16635.44,"text":"或原料的安全標準"},{"start":16635.44,"end":16637.44,"text":"所以他當然依法而言"},{"start":16637.44,"end":16639.44,"text":"他是不需要通報"},{"start":16639.44,"end":16641.44,"text":"但是如果這個是"},{"start":16641.44,"end":16643.44,"text":"不得添加的"},{"start":16643.44,"end":16645.44,"text":"不論你在原料不論你在產品"},{"start":16645.44,"end":16647.44,"text":"因為他會存在"},{"start":16647.44,"end":16649.44,"text":"這個是不得是零檢出的"},{"start":16649.44,"end":16651.44,"text":"所以這個一定要通報"},{"start":16651.44,"end":16653.44,"text":"所以部長我請問一下"},{"start":16653.44,"end":16655.44,"text":"這個黃豆"},{"start":16655.44,"end":16657.44,"text":"他炸出這個出油"},{"start":16658.9,"end":16660.9,"text":"那含有本篇筆一級字來誤"},{"start":16662.1,"end":16664.1,"text":"是正常的嗎"},{"start":16664.14,"end":16666.14,"text":"你們聽起來好像"},{"start":16666.14,"end":16668.14,"text":"反正有含也沒關係"},{"start":16668.14,"end":16670.14,"text":"因為黃豆本身可能就會"},{"start":16670.14,"end":16672.14,"text":"帶有這個本篇筆"},{"start":16672.14,"end":16674.14,"text":"所以他做出來之後"},{"start":16674.14,"end":16676.14,"text":"他需要再經過後面的"},{"start":16676.14,"end":16678.14,"text":"脫酸脫色脫臭去把它下降"},{"start":16678.14,"end":16680.14,"text":"所以這個是後面為什麼要有這些製程"},{"start":16680.14,"end":16682.14,"text":"要去監測他的道理在這裡"},{"start":16682.14,"end":16684.14,"text":"那其他的"},{"start":16684.14,"end":16686.14,"text":"除了這批黃豆"},{"start":16686.14,"end":16688.14,"text":"會有"},{"start":16688.14,"end":16690.14,"text":"就在出油會有本篇筆一級字來誤"},{"start":16690.14,"end":16692.14,"text":"那其他的黃豆"},{"start":16690.98,"end":16692.98,"text":"他做成出油也會有本篇筆嗎"},{"start":16692.98,"end":16694.98,"text":"會"},{"start":16694.98,"end":16696.98,"text":"那本篇筆是高低的問題"},{"start":16696.98,"end":16698.98,"text":"有的是還是會有零點幾"},{"start":16698.98,"end":16700.98,"text":"一點幾"},{"start":16700.98,"end":16702.98,"text":"所以他都在安全標準之內"},{"start":16702.98,"end":16704.98,"text":"所以才是說他要透過"},{"start":16704.98,"end":16706.98,"text":"製程的調整"},{"start":16706.98,"end":16708.98,"text":"他存在他會存在"},{"start":16708.98,"end":16710.98,"text":"因為在這個黃豆"},{"start":16710.98,"end":16712.98,"text":"有機物裡面就會存在"},{"start":16712.98,"end":16714.98,"text":"所以他需要經過製程去把它"},{"start":16714.98,"end":16716.98,"text":"下降到我們"},{"start":16716.98,"end":16718.98,"text":"合格的安全標準以下"},{"start":16718.98,"end":16720.98,"text":"所以台糖驗到"},{"start":16720.98,"end":16722.98,"text":"本篇筆"},{"start":16722.65,"end":16724.65,"text":"超過七倍之多"},{"start":16725.2,"end":16727.2,"text":"難道他覺得這是正常的嗎"},{"start":16728.13,"end":16730.13,"text":"他認為超出他的"},{"start":16730.13,"end":16732.13,"text":"驗收標準他就不予允收"},{"start":16732.13,"end":16734.13,"text":"這個是他的標準"},{"start":16734.13,"end":16736.13,"text":"他自己定的標準"},{"start":16736.13,"end":16738.13,"text":"所以其實不講"},{"start":16738.13,"end":16740.13,"text":"其實前面最早你們講產品"},{"start":16740.13,"end":16742.13,"text":"其實我們今天為什麼會講"},{"start":16742.13,"end":16744.13,"text":"後來一直收集之後"},{"start":16744.13,"end":16746.13,"text":"結果我們發現"},{"start":16746.76,"end":16748.76,"text":"原料你們自己當初也發新聞稿"},{"start":16748.76,"end":16750.76,"text":"在很多你們的問答集裡面"},{"start":16750.76,"end":16752.76,"text":"也說原料"},{"start":16752.76,"end":16754.76,"text":"只要有超過就要通報"},{"start":16754.76,"end":16756.76,"text":"可是為什麼今天真的"},{"start":16756.76,"end":16758.76,"text":"不能理解"},{"start":16758.76,"end":16760.76,"text":"前面講產品後來你們公佈"},{"start":16760.76,"end":16762.76,"text":"說原料原料也含有"},{"start":16762.76,"end":16764.76,"text":"超標本篇筆一級致癌物"},{"start":16764.76,"end":16766.76,"text":"而且是超過七"},{"start":16766.76,"end":16768.76,"text":"倍之多"},{"start":16768.76,"end":16770.76,"text":"這麼嚴重"},{"start":16770.42,"end":16772.42,"text":"台糖就"},{"start":16772.43,"end":16774.43,"text":"當做沒事一樣"},{"start":16774.43,"end":16776.43,"text":"就退回去"},{"start":16775.57,"end":16777.57,"text":"今天如果五月多早發現"},{"start":16777.57,"end":16779.57,"text":"就不會有這麼多的問題"},{"start":16779.57,"end":16781.57,"text":"發生而且我們認為"},{"start":16781.57,"end":16783.57,"text":"今天這麼多的"},{"start":16783.57,"end":16785.57,"text":"問題是不是我們"},{"start":16785.57,"end":16787.57,"text":"衛福部還有食藥署這一部分"},{"start":16787.57,"end":16789.57,"text":"針對這麼多的問題都沒有"},{"start":16789.57,"end":16791.57,"text":"好好的監督"},{"start":16792.39,"end":16794.39,"text":"我們制定了相關的規定"},{"start":16794.39,"end":16796.39,"text":"要求地方去查核"},{"start":16796.39,"end":16798.39,"text":"所以真正在"},{"start":16798.39,"end":16800.39,"text":"監督跟"},{"start":16800.39,"end":16802.39,"text":"查場以及抽驗的"},{"start":16802.39,"end":16804.39,"text":"這個是地方的權責"},{"start":16804.39,"end":16806.39,"text":"當然我們也會協助地方"},{"start":16806.39,"end":16808.39,"text":"一起去辦"},{"start":16808.39,"end":16810.39,"text":"所以我們也有固定的一些"},{"start":16810.39,"end":16812.39,"text":"專案的稽查的"},{"start":16812.39,"end":16814.39,"text":"啟動"},{"start":16814.39,"end":16816.39,"text":"所以這些都是中央跟地方大家一起合作"},{"start":16816.39,"end":16818.39,"text":"來確保食藥安全"},{"start":16818.39,"end":16820.39,"text":"其實今天講"},{"start":16820.39,"end":16822.39,"text":"今天講這麼多"},{"start":16822.39,"end":16824.39,"text":"今天這個案子最重要就是中聯"},{"start":16824.39,"end":16826.39,"text":"黑心廠商"},{"start":16826.39,"end":16828.39,"text":"沒有及時通報"},{"start":16828.39,"end":16830.39,"text":"還繼續製造"},{"start":16830.39,"end":16832.39,"text":"這個才是應該最糟糕的地方"},{"start":16832.39,"end":16834.39,"text":"我覺得我們不可理解"},{"start":16834.39,"end":16836.39,"text":"其實衛福部還有食藥署"},{"start":16836.39,"end":16838.39,"text":"我們這個是主管機關"},{"start":16838.39,"end":16840.39,"text":"今天我不知道為什麼"},{"start":16840.39,"end":16842.39,"text":"感覺一直都在"},{"start":16842.39,"end":16844.39,"text":"為台糖在說話"},{"start":16844.39,"end":16846.39,"text":"一直在護航"},{"start":16846.39,"end":16848.39,"text":"一直在把他的事情讓他去合理化"},{"start":16848.39,"end":16850.39,"text":"我們"},{"start":16849.97,"end":16851.97,"text":"這些針對我們今天"},{"start":16851.97,"end":16853.97,"text":"看到的我們這些問答集"},{"start":16853.97,"end":16855.97,"text":"裡面原料出自原"},{"start":16855.97,"end":16857.97,"text":"有直接供食用"},{"start":16857.97,"end":16859.97,"text":"支出在原油"},{"start":16859.97,"end":16861.97,"text":"他每半年就要做一次的"},{"start":16861.97,"end":16863.97,"text":"強制性檢驗"},{"start":16863.97,"end":16865.97,"text":"那你為什麼要做強制性檢驗"},{"start":16865.97,"end":16867.97,"text":"結果你強制性檢驗"},{"start":16867.97,"end":16869.97,"text":"去做了結果"},{"start":16869.97,"end":16871.97,"text":"查到"},{"start":16871.08,"end":16873.08,"text":"掃標"},{"start":16872.28,"end":16874.28,"text":"本篇比操標七倍之多"},{"start":16875.25,"end":16877.25,"text":"居然不用通報"},{"start":16877.25,"end":16879.25,"text":"那你不用通報你做強制性檢驗幹嘛"},{"start":16881.02,"end":16883.02,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":16883.02,"end":16885.02,"text":"我們今天用比較高的標準"},{"start":16885.02,"end":16887.02,"text":"來要求台糖"},{"start":16887.02,"end":16889.02,"text":"我們都尊重委員的看法"},{"start":16889.02,"end":16891.02,"text":"但是我還是回到依法論法而言"},{"start":16891.02,"end":16893.02,"text":"我們訂的本篇比的標準"},{"start":16893.02,"end":16895.02,"text":"指的是食用油脂"},{"start":16895.02,"end":16897.02,"text":"不是脫膠原油"},{"start":16897.02,"end":16899.02,"text":"也不是原來其他的原料"},{"start":16899.02,"end":16901.02,"text":"所以這個要把它"},{"start":16901.02,"end":16903.02,"text":"我們把它弄清楚就好"},{"start":16903.09,"end":16905.09,"text":"所以我相信"},{"start":16905.36,"end":16907.36,"text":"今天這麼多委員講那麼多"},{"start":16907.36,"end":16909.36,"text":"其實這裡面"},{"start":16909.36,"end":16911.36,"text":"立法的用意針對各類別"},{"start":16911.36,"end":16913.36,"text":"被納入做"},{"start":16913.36,"end":16915.36,"text":"強制檢驗的食品"},{"start":16915.36,"end":16917.36,"text":"包含原料產品"},{"start":16918.05,"end":16920.05,"text":"都應該要符合強制檢驗的周期標準"},{"start":16920.05,"end":16922.05,"text":"不然"},{"start":16922.05,"end":16924.05,"text":"為什麼食藥署要援引"},{"start":16924.05,"end":16926.05,"text":"通報義務的法規"},{"start":16926.97,"end":16928.97,"text":"你們都說"},{"start":16928.36,"end":16930.36,"text":"原料有問題就要通報"},{"start":16930.48,"end":16932.48,"text":"可是為什麼我們一直"},{"start":16932.48,"end":16934.48,"text":"百思不得其解"},{"start":16934.48,"end":16936.48,"text":"碰到台糖你們就有另外一個說法"},{"start":16936.48,"end":16938.48,"text":"好像它這個原料有問題"},{"start":16939.61,"end":16941.61,"text":"不用通報"},{"start":16941.61,"end":16943.61,"text":"這合理化在哪裡"},{"start":16943.61,"end":16945.61,"text":"其實大家對你們今天的邏輯"},{"start":16945.61,"end":16947.61,"text":"真的是聽不懂"},{"start":16948.37,"end":16950.37,"text":"而且經濟部是我們的國營事業"},{"start":16950.37,"end":16952.37,"text":"他也是公告"},{"start":16952.37,"end":16954.37,"text":"應辦理檢驗的"},{"start":16954.37,"end":16956.37,"text":"食品業者"},{"start":16956.37,"end":16958.37,"text":"他有法定的強制檢驗"},{"start":16958.37,"end":16960.37,"text":"義務"},{"start":16960.37,"end":16962.37,"text":"而且他在五月就知情"},{"start":16962.37,"end":16964.37,"text":"那依照我們現行的食安法"},{"start":16964.37,"end":16966.37,"text":"還有他問答級的規定"},{"start":16966.37,"end":16968.37,"text":"上面都寫得很清楚"},{"start":16968.37,"end":16970.37,"text":"還有包括我們剛剛講的"},{"start":16970.37,"end":16972.37,"text":"食藥署"},{"start":16972.37,"end":16974.37,"text":"還有我們食安辦公室的對外新聞稿"},{"start":16975.17,"end":16977.17,"text":"台電就是要通報"},{"start":16977.17,"end":16979.17,"text":"為什麼就講了一堆就是不用通報"},{"start":16981.33,"end":16983.33,"text":"跟委員說明我們在HACCP"},{"start":16983.33,"end":16985.33,"text":"裡面要求在不同的節點"},{"start":16985.33,"end":16987.33,"text":"去檢驗這個是在"},{"start":16987.33,"end":16989.33,"text":"做品質的控管"},{"start":16989.33,"end":16991.33,"text":"讓這個業者在製造的過程"},{"start":16991.33,"end":16993.33,"text":"當中可以提早的"},{"start":16993.33,"end":16995.33,"text":"去預警風險的存在"},{"start":16995.33,"end":16997.33,"text":"然後去做一些矯正調整"},{"start":16997.33,"end":16999.33,"text":"的措施來確保最後"},{"start":16999.33,"end":17001.33,"text":"這個食品的安全"},{"start":17001.33,"end":17003.33,"text":"我想這個是整個原意是這樣"},{"start":17003.33,"end":17005.33,"text":"而至於要求的強制性"},{"start":17005.33,"end":17007.33,"text":"通報是針對我們"},{"start":17007.33,"end":17009.33,"text":"訂有這個"},{"start":17009.33,"end":17011.33,"text":"安全標準超標的時候"},{"start":17011.33,"end":17013.33,"text":"你就要強制性通報了"},{"start":17013.33,"end":17015.33,"text":"所以這個權利義務是不一樣的"},{"start":17015.33,"end":17017.33,"tex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17214.94,"end":17216.94,"text":"健康我們不是今天"},{"start":17216.94,"end":17218.94,"text":"要幫這些業者"},{"start":17218.94,"end":17220.94,"text":"去設防火牆"},{"start":17220.94,"end":17222.94,"text":"希望部長也站在"},{"start":17222.94,"end":17224.94,"text":"國人食安跟健康的角度"},{"start":17224.94,"end":17226.94,"text":"我們來重新"},{"start":17226.94,"end":17228.94,"text":"審視這個通報的"},{"start":17228.94,"end":17230.94,"text":"法律義務跟這個法環"},{"start":17230.94,"end":17232.94,"text":"我覺得食安的問題"},{"start":17232.94,"end":17234.94,"text":"一定要高規格"},{"start":17234.94,"end":17236.94,"text":"標準來去審視"},{"start":17236.94,"end":17238.94,"text":"因為這個關係到我們全國"},{"start":17238.94,"end":17240.94,"text":"人民的健康"},{"start":17240.94,"end":17242.94,"text":"非常認同委員的這一番話"},{"start":17242.94,"end":17244.94,"text":"這個食安是沒有"},{"start":17244.94,"end":17246.94,"text":"這個博虎的空間"},{"start":17246.94,"end":17248.94,"text":"我們一定會持續的"},{"start":17248.94,"end":17250.94,"text":"為這個食安來把關"},{"start":17250.94,"end":17252.94,"text":"而且大家聽到台糖"},{"start":17252.94,"end":17254.94,"text":"這個我們國家的國營"},{"start":17254.94,"end":17256.94,"text":"事業居然知道"},{"start":17256.94,"end":17258.94,"text":"這個訊息居然沒有選擇通報"},{"start":17258.94,"end":17260.94,"text":"其實這對國人來講"},{"start":17260.94,"end":17262.94,"text":"應該是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":17264.39,"end":17266.39,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":17269.42,"end":17271.42,"text":"謝謝土君吉委員"},{"start":17274.55,"end":17276.55,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17279.88,"end":17281.88,"text":"好 這邊重新宣告"},{"start":17281.88,"end":17283.88,"text":"待會在林淑芬委員"},{"start":17283.88,"end":17285.88,"text":"詢答完畢後"},{"start":17285.88,"end":17287.88,"text":"我們休息30分鐘"},{"start":17294.09,"end":17296.09,"text":"所以重新宣告"},{"start":17296.09,"end":17298.09,"text":"因為順序有重新調動"},{"start":17298.83,"end":17300.83,"text":"好 那我們請林淑芬委員"},{"start":17309.97,"end":17311.97,"text":"主席 各位大家午安"},{"start":17311.97,"end":17313.97,"text":"是不是請我們時部長"},{"start":17314.54,"end":17316.54,"text":"好 請時部長"},{"start":17318.73,"end":17320.73,"text":"委員好"},{"start":17348.73,"end":17350.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17350.73,"end":17352.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17352.73,"end":17354.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17354.73,"end":17356.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17356.73,"end":17358.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17358.73,"end":17360.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17360.73,"end":17362.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17362.73,"end":17364.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17364.73,"end":17366.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17366.73,"end":17368.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17368.73,"end":17370.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17370.73,"end":17372.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17372.73,"end":17374.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17374.73,"end":17376.73,"text":"請時務長"},{"start":17369.37,"end":17372.37,"text":"所以這個中聯這個獨有的案件"},{"start":17372.37,"end":17374.37,"text":"中聯"},{"start":17374.37,"end":17379.37,"text":"他們全部都是HACCP的制度運作的"},{"start":17379.37,"end":17382.37,"text":"那從你們以前的所謂的"},{"start":17382.37,"end":17385.37,"text":"2021年的實用油脂工廠"},{"start":17385.37,"end":17388.37,"text":"實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統"},{"start":17388.37,"end":17390.37,"text":"概況的調查報告"},{"start":17391.37,"end":17393.37,"text":"我們就可以看得出來"},{"start":17393.37,"end":17395.37,"text":"裡面的調查報告說"},{"start":17395.37,"end":17397.37,"text":"他們的數據經常造假"},{"start":17397.37,"end":17399.37,"text":"那為什麼要經常造假"},{"start":17399.37,"end":17402.37,"text":"因為他們進行了危害分析以後"},{"start":17402.37,"end":17404.37,"text":"要設管制點"},{"start":17404.37,"end":17406.37,"text":"設完管制點以後發現"},{"start":17406.37,"end":17408.37,"text":"檢查起來都還是異常的話"},{"start":17408.37,"end":17410.37,"text":"他們要做矯正"},{"start":17410.37,"end":17412.37,"text":"然後矯正措施做好以後"},{"start":17412.37,"end":17415.37,"text":"還要回去把他們的危害重新分析"},{"start":17415.37,"end":17417.37,"text":"然後再重新設管制點"},{"start":17417.37,"end":17419.37,"text":"你們的調查報告說"},{"start":17419.37,"end":17420.37,"text":"他們"},{"start":17420.37,"end":17422.37,"text":"你們這次獨有事件"},{"start":17422.37,"end":17424.37,"text":"拿講說他們都沒有設好管制點"},{"start":17424.37,"end":17425.37,"text":"沒有照落實"},{"start":17425.37,"end":17427.37,"text":"他們當然不能設好管制點"},{"start":17427.37,"end":17431.37,"text":"因為他們設的管制點還是不通過"},{"start":17432.18,"end":17435.18,"text":"所以他們的問題就是他們必須要造假"},{"start":17435.18,"end":17437.18,"text":"否則就不能符合HACCP"},{"start":17438.42,"end":17440.42,"text":"所以在這個過程裡面"},{"start":17440.42,"end":17444.42,"text":"整個危害預警的制度HACCP"},{"start":17444.42,"end":17447.42,"text":"是瓦解淪於紙上作業"},{"start":17447.42,"end":17449.42,"text":"這是我講過的"},{"start":17449.42,"end":17450.42,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":17450.42,"end":17453.42,"text":"它並不是只是如此而已"},{"start":17453.42,"end":17457.42,"text":"我要講說從大家講了一整個早上"},{"start":17457.42,"end":17459.42,"text":"都在講台糖台糖"},{"start":17459.42,"end":17461.42,"text":"那所值的爭點都說"},{"start":17461.42,"end":17462.42,"text":"到底有沒有通報義務"},{"start":17462.42,"end":17464.42,"text":"或是沒有通報義務"},{"start":17464.42,"end":17465.42,"text":"我現在要告訴你"},{"start":17465.42,"end":17470.42,"text":"我不想只是談通報義務這個概念"},{"start":17470.42,"end":17474.42,"text":"不能夠只問責台糖有沒有通報義務"},{"start":17474.42,"end":17478.42,"text":"也不是只問責中聯要怎麼裁罰"},{"start":17478.42,"end":17479.42,"text":"怎麼處罰的更重"},{"start":17479.42,"end":17481.42,"text":"甚至說回到"},{"start":17481.42,"end":17482.42,"text":"不是只有這樣子"},{"start":17482.42,"end":17484.42,"text":"因為對人民來講"},{"start":17484.42,"end":17488.42,"text":"我們希望不管食安法還是HACCP的制度"},{"start":17488.42,"end":17491.42,"text":"都能夠要發揮預警的作用"},{"start":17491.42,"end":17495.42,"text":"不能夠做到只是事後究責"},{"start":17495.42,"end":17497.42,"text":"還要事前預防"},{"start":17499.3,"end":17501.3,"text":"在這個地方我們知道"},{"start":17501.3,"end":17503.3,"text":"台糖的責任有沒有責任"},{"start":17503.3,"end":17507.3,"text":"釐清中聯這個始作俑者最過分的"},{"start":17507.3,"end":17509.3,"text":"我們要問責清楚"},{"start":17509.3,"end":17510.3,"text":"可是更重要的是"},{"start":17510.3,"end":17512.3,"text":"現行的食安法"},{"start":17512.3,"end":17514.3,"text":"現行的HACCP制度"},{"start":17514.3,"end":17516.3,"text":"現行的所有安全管理的制度"},{"start":17516.3,"end":17520.3,"text":"有沒有辦法讓重大的食安警訊"},{"start":17520.3,"end":17524.3,"text":"在供應鏈生產鏈的供應鏈的內部"},{"start":17524.3,"end":17526.3,"text":"你們就要掌握"},{"start":17526.3,"end":17528.3,"text":"不是只有業者掌握"},{"start":17528.3,"end":17532.3,"text":"現在的問題就是所有的重大的風險"},{"start":17532.3,"end":17536.3,"text":"在還沒成為產品以前就發現到的"},{"start":17536.3,"end":17539.3,"text":"不能只是業者知道"},{"start":17539.3,"end":17542.3,"text":"而是政府也要管制要知道"},{"start":17542.3,"end":17546.3,"text":"否則我們修了這麼多次的食安法"},{"start":17546.3,"end":17548.3,"text":"每一次發生單一事件"},{"start":17548.3,"end":17550.3,"text":"系統性的風暴"},{"start":17550.3,"end":17552.3,"text":"每次都還是在等下游"},{"start":17552.3,"end":17553.3,"text":"檢出鈔標"},{"start":17553.3,"end":17556.3,"text":"產品大家都吃下肚"},{"start":17556.3,"end":17558.3,"text":"等媒體大幅報導"},{"start":17558.3,"end":17561.3,"text":"然後吹哨者出現才開始補救"},{"start":17561.3,"end":17564.3,"text":"這個是不能夠這樣的"},{"start":17564.3,"end":17567.3,"text":"所以我今天就開始要來講說"},{"start":17567.3,"end":17569.3,"text":"中聯獨有案件"},{"start":17569.3,"end":17573.3,"text":"為什麼重大的食安警訊"},{"start":17573.3,"end":17578.3,"text":"卻斷訊在供應鏈的業者的內部"},{"start":17578.3,"end":17580.3,"text":"就斷訊了"},{"start":17581.01,"end":17583.01,"text":"我現在要講的是這件事"},{"start":17583.01,"end":17587.01,"text":"當然我們的食安法一定要管理原料"},{"start":17587.01,"end":17589.01,"text":"這個是開宗明義就講"},{"start":17589.01,"end":17592.01,"text":"我們食安法不是只有管產品來管原料"},{"start":17592.01,"end":17596.01,"text":"但是在現行的第七條裡面"},{"start":17596.01,"end":17601.01,"text":"的確也規定當你進入生產程序"},{"start":17601.01,"end":17606.01,"text":"成為產品發現異常才客折業者要通報"},{"start":17606.01,"end":17608.01,"text":"可是這樣子是不行的"},{"start":17608.47,"end":17611.47,"text":"要管原料那什麼時候要管到哪裡"},{"start":17611.47,"end":17613.47,"text":"在客折通報的時候"},{"start":17613.47,"end":17616.47,"text":"沒有把原料這一環放進去"},{"start":17616.47,"end":17618.47,"text":"而獨有事件"},{"start":17618.47,"end":17620.47,"text":"台航事件"},{"start":17620.47,"end":17625.47,"text":"就是把重大的14.7PPB的原料"},{"start":17625.47,"end":17627.47,"text":"這個重大的風險"},{"start":17627.47,"end":17630.47,"text":"竟然斷訊在供應鏈的內部"},{"start":17631.84,"end":17632.84,"text":"政府不知道"},{"start":17632.84,"end":17633.84,"text":"更不要講人民"},{"start":17633.84,"end":17634.84,"text":"通通都不知道"},{"start":17634.84,"end":17637.84,"text":"而是大家都吃下肚了"},{"start":17637.84,"end":17639.84,"text":"所以我們在這裡要講說"},{"start":17639.84,"end":17641.84,"text":"高風險原料的管理"},{"start":17641.84,"end":17644.84,"text":"製程的管控監測的管制"},{"start":17644.84,"end":17646.84,"text":"這個是你們說"},{"start":17646.84,"end":17649.84,"text":"獨立調查的結果發現了很多原因"},{"start":17649.84,"end":17653.84,"text":"但是我們要再講一遍"},{"start":17653.84,"end":17655.84,"text":"前面早就出現了風險訊號"},{"start":17655.84,"end":17657.84,"text":"譬如說原料的來源"},{"start":17657.84,"end":17659.84,"text":"傳奇的差異"},{"start":17659.84,"end":17661.84,"text":"油槽的檢驗"},{"start":17661.84,"end":17662.84,"text":"製程的參數"},{"start":17662.84,"end":17664.84,"text":"管制的界線"},{"start":17664.84,"end":17665.84,"text":"下游的檢驗"},{"start":17665.84,"end":17667.84,"text":"拒收退貨的紀錄"},{"start":17667.84,"end":17668.84,"text":"這些訊號"},{"start":17668.84,"end":17671.84,"text":"通通沒有被整合"},{"start":17671.84,"end":17674.84,"text":"沒有進入主管機關的預警系統"},{"start":17674.84,"end":17677.84,"text":"也沒有變成跨縣市的"},{"start":17677.84,"end":17678.84,"text":"跨業者的"},{"start":17678.84,"end":17681.84,"text":"跨供應鏈的風險警示"},{"start":17682.72,"end":17684.72,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":17684.72,"end":17686.72,"text":"我們通通都吃下肚以後"},{"start":17686.72,"end":17688.72,"text":"才發現問題"},{"start":17688.72,"end":17689.72,"text":"然後發現問題的時候"},{"start":17689.72,"end":17690.72,"text":"已經都來不及了"},{"start":17690.72,"end":17692.72,"text":"因為都吃進去了"},{"start":17692.72,"end":17694.72,"text":"一次又一次都是吃完了"},{"start":17694.72,"end":17695.72,"text":"才在說"},{"start":17696.69,"end":17697.69,"text":"你可以退貨"},{"start":17697.69,"end":17698.69,"text":"你可以退款"},{"start":17698.69,"end":17699.69,"text":"吃進去了"},{"start":17699.69,"end":17701.69,"text":"我的健康怎麼退款"},{"start":17701.69,"end":17702.69,"text":"我的健康怎麼退貨"},{"start":17702.69,"end":17704.69,"text":"所以我在這裡講清楚"},{"start":17704.69,"end":17709.69,"text":"這個問題不是限縮在台糖一間公司"},{"start":17709.69,"end":17711.69,"text":"要怎麼做而已"},{"start":17711.69,"end":17714.69,"text":"也不是說台糖這個案子"},{"start":17714.69,"end":17715.69,"text":"要不要通報"},{"start":17715.69,"end":17716.69,"text":"有沒有通報義務"},{"start":17716.69,"end":17717.69,"text":"我們要講是"},{"start":17717.69,"end":17719.69,"text":"問題有品"},{"start":17719.69,"end":17722.69,"text":"有沒有實際進入台糖工廠"},{"start":17722.69,"end":17725.69,"text":"重大的訊號就已經出現了"},{"start":17725.69,"end":17728.69,"text":"為什麼主管機關沒有同步掌握"},{"start":17728.69,"end":17730.69,"text":"今天是本篇評論"},{"start":17732.03,"end":17734.03,"text":"明天有可能是種金屬"},{"start":17734.03,"end":17735.03,"text":"農藥殘留"},{"start":17735.03,"end":17736.03,"text":"塑化劑"},{"start":17736.03,"end":17738.03,"text":"黃麴毒素"},{"start":17738.03,"end":17740.03,"text":"或是其他污染物"},{"start":17740.03,"end":17742.03,"text":"只要制度面"},{"start":17742.03,"end":17745.03,"text":"仍然只看到產品有沒有進貨"},{"start":17746.03,"end":17748.03,"text":"所有權有沒有移轉"},{"start":17748.03,"end":17749.03,"text":"我沒有買"},{"start":17749.03,"end":17751.03,"text":"還在他那裡"},{"start":17751.03,"end":17753.03,"text":"業者有沒有製成自己的產品"},{"start":17753.03,"end":17755.03,"text":"如果只是制度面"},{"start":17755.03,"end":17757.03,"text":"現在的只看到這個"},{"start":17757.03,"end":17759.03,"text":"那麼主管機關就會"},{"start":17759.03,"end":17762.03,"text":"看不到供應鏈前端"},{"start":17762.03,"end":17765.03,"text":"已經出現的風險訊號"},{"start":17765.03,"end":17766.03,"text":"所以我再講一遍就是說"},{"start":17766.03,"end":17769.03,"text":"選法管制的精神"},{"start":17769.03,"end":17771.03,"text":"人民想要的制度"},{"start":17771.03,"end":17774.03,"text":"就是在成為產品以前"},{"start":17774.03,"end":17776.03,"text":"供應鏈的前端"},{"start":17776.03,"end":17779.03,"text":"就已經出現了風險的訊號"},{"start":17779.03,"end":17782.03,"text":"我們要怎麼來設計成"},{"start":17782.03,"end":17785.03,"text":"政府一定要就馬上介入和管制"},{"start":17785.77,"end":17787.77,"text":"食安制度不能靠吹哨者"},{"start":17787.77,"end":17789.77,"text":"當最後一道防線"},{"start":17789.77,"end":17791.77,"text":"那都已經來不及"},{"start":17791.77,"end":17793.77,"text":"真正的預警制度"},{"start":17793.77,"end":17795.77,"text":"應該是重大的異常"},{"start":17795.77,"end":17797.77,"text":"發現了"},{"start":17797.77,"end":17799.77,"text":"還停留在供應鏈內部的時候"},{"start":17799.77,"end":17802.77,"text":"你就要掌握資訊"},{"start":17802.77,"end":17804.77,"text":"交叉比對"},{"start":17804.77,"end":17806.77,"text":"採取行政措施"},{"start":17806.77,"end":17808.77,"text":"而不是等到爆發以後"},{"start":17808.77,"end":17810.77,"text":"才來究責"},{"start":17811.88,"end":17812.88,"text":"所以我再講一次"},{"start":17812.88,"end":17813.88,"text":"台糖不只是"},{"start":17813.88,"end":17816.88,"text":"有沒有現行通報的義務的問題"},{"start":17816.88,"end":17818.88,"text":"而是在於現行的制度"},{"start":17818.88,"end":17820.88,"text":"根本沒有確保"},{"start":17820.88,"end":17822.88,"text":"重大風險資訊"},{"start":17822.88,"end":17826.88,"text":"能夠立即及時的進入主管機關"},{"start":17826.88,"end":17828.88,"text":"這個東西很重要"},{"start":17828.88,"end":17832.88,"text":"那食安管理更不能只看產品"},{"start":17832.88,"end":17834.88,"text":"這個原料的所有權是誰"},{"start":17835.89,"end":17839.89,"text":"還要看誰要負責掌握風險的資訊"},{"start":17840.75,"end":17844.75,"text":"所以剛剛委員講到的HACCP"},{"start":17844.75,"end":17847.75,"text":"我們也在這一次修法裡面提出"},{"start":17847.75,"end":17850.75,"text":"要強化那個HACCP的功能"},{"start":17850.75,"end":17852.75,"text":"包含"},{"start":17852.89,"end":17855.89,"text":"他進場去查這個HACCP的過程"},{"start":17855.89,"end":17857.89,"text":"不是只有看文件"},{"start":17857.89,"end":17859.89,"text":"他還要做"},{"start":17860.82,"end":17862.82,"text":"這個我上一次質詢過了"},{"start":17862.82,"end":17864.82,"text":"現在的HACCP"},{"start":17864.82,"end":17870.82,"text":"沒有淪為紙上作業造假成為常態"},{"start":17870.82,"end":17874.82,"text":"根本台灣不存在HACCP制度了"},{"start":17874.82,"end":17875.82,"text":"老實說"},{"start":17875.82,"end":17877.82,"text":"就現行的執行"},{"start":17877.82,"end":17879.82,"text":"屠法不足以自行嘛"},{"start":17879.82,"end":17882.82,"text":"就現行有的法律在那裡"},{"start":17882.82,"end":17886.82,"text":"但是執行面所有HACCP業者"},{"start":17886.82,"end":17888.82,"text":"我可以在這裡大膽的假設啦"},{"start":17888.82,"end":17891.82,"text":"沒有人在執行管制的啦"},{"start":17892.42,"end":17895.42,"text":"HACCP都做假的啦"},{"start":17898.25,"end":17899.25,"text":"我現在說"},{"start":17899.25,"end":17901.25,"text":"屠法不足以自行啊"},{"start":17902.23,"end":17904.23,"text":"屠法不足以自行啊"},{"start":17904.23,"end":17905.23,"text":"現在要怎樣"},{"start":17905.84,"end":17907.84,"text":"以台糖為例啦"},{"start":17907.84,"end":17909.84,"text":"我們當然知道他跟中聯"},{"start":17909.84,"end":17911.84,"text":"跟南僑太三福壽"},{"start":17911.84,"end":17914.84,"text":"他們的責任當然是不一樣"},{"start":17914.84,"end":17915.84,"text":"但是"},{"start":17916.84,"end":17919.84,"text":"他們遇到了知道了這一個風險"},{"start":17921.33,"end":17923.33,"text":"還是存在在那裡啊"},{"start":17923.33,"end":17924.33,"text":"所以"},{"start":17924.33,"end":17928.33,"text":"誰要負責去掌握公共食安風險的資訊"},{"start":17928.33,"end":17929.33,"text":"誰要負責"},{"start":17929.33,"end":17931.33,"text":"誰要負責起來"},{"start":17933.11,"end":17936.11,"text":"今天剪出的本評比14.7"},{"start":17936.11,"end":17937.11,"text":"已經不是"},{"start":17937.11,"end":17939.11,"text":"不是單純買賣雙方"},{"start":17939.11,"end":17941.11,"text":"要不要交貨的問題耶"},{"start":17941.11,"end":17944.11,"text":"而是共食品製造使用的原料"},{"start":17944.11,"end":17947.11,"text":"出現重大的汙染訊號了"},{"start":17947.11,"end":17950.11,"text":"那這個訊號沒有進入主管機關"},{"start":17950.11,"end":17952.11,"text":"你怎麼知道他後續有沒有封存"},{"start":17953.07,"end":17954.07,"text":"有沒有精煉"},{"start":17954.83,"end":17956.83,"text":"有沒有混屁"},{"start":17956.85,"end":17958.85,"text":"有沒有轉賣掉"},{"start":17959.86,"end":17960.86,"text":"都不知道啊"},{"start":17962.27,"end":17964.27,"text":"因為都不知道嘛"},{"start":17964.77,"end":17966.77,"text":"所以在這個過程會變成有一個"},{"start":17967.99,"end":17969.99,"text":"另一種假設的狀況是"},{"start":17969.99,"end":17973.99,"text":"我們第七條第五項通報義務是說"},{"start":17973.99,"end":17975.99,"text":"自己的產品自己管"},{"start":17975.99,"end":17976.99,"text":"可是呢"},{"start":17978.42,"end":17979.42,"text":"有一種狀況是"},{"start":17979.42,"end":17984.42,"text":"買方在供應商端驗收錢取貨前"},{"start":17984.42,"end":17985.42,"text":"都已經知道了"},{"start":17985.42,"end":17986.42,"text":"但也沒有收貨"},{"start":17986.42,"end":17988.42,"text":"就是台黨這種狀況嘛"},{"start":17989.83,"end":17991.83,"text":"那他已經知道重大異常"},{"start":17991.83,"end":17992.83,"text":"尚未收貨"},{"start":17992.83,"end":17993.83,"text":"現行法"},{"start":17993.83,"end":17994.83,"text":"管不到"},{"start":17995.56,"end":17996.56,"text":"那這個風險怎麼辦"},{"start":17996.56,"end":17998.56,"text":"我們今天就是要來補這個洞啊"},{"start":17999.46,"end":18001.46,"text":"保定"},{"start":18000.63,"end":18001.63,"text":"今天"},{"start":18002.57,"end":18004.57,"text":"就是要來補這個洞"},{"start":18004.85,"end":18009.85,"text":"這個食安法的最核心風險都在業者手上"},{"start":18009.85,"end":18012.85,"text":"主管機關你都不知道耶"},{"start":18014.68,"end":18016.68,"text":"台黨不是這批有的製造者"},{"start":18016.68,"end":18017.68,"text":"也不是收貨者"},{"start":18017.68,"end":18019.68,"text":"也不是後續的加工者"},{"start":18020.3,"end":18026.3,"text":"可是台黨掌握了中聯311號油槽14.7PBB"},{"start":18026.3,"end":18028.3,"text":"這個重大的污染的資訊"},{"start":18029.74,"end":18032.74,"text":"這個資訊就不能只限縮在是台黨"},{"start":18032.74,"end":18035.74,"text":"跟中聯之間的商業資訊"},{"start":18036.52,"end":18039.52,"text":"這是足以影響整個使用油紙供應鏈的"},{"start":18039.52,"end":18041.52,"text":"公共食安風險的資訊"},{"start":18042.71,"end":18044.71,"text":"所以要請問你部長"},{"start":18044.71,"end":18045.71,"text":"我們要不要討論"},{"start":18046.34,"end":18047.34,"text":"食品業者"},{"start":18047.34,"end":18048.34,"text":"不管他有沒有買"},{"start":18048.34,"end":18050.34,"text":"所有權是誰的"},{"start":18050.34,"end":18052.34,"text":"只要你掌握了供應鏈中"},{"start":18052.34,"end":18054.34,"text":"重大食安異常的資訊"},{"start":18054.34,"end":18055.34,"text":"即便你沒有買"},{"start":18055.34,"end":18056.34,"text":"沒有收貨"},{"start":18056.65,"end":18057.65,"text":"要不要通報"},{"start":18057.65,"end":18060.65,"text":"然後要不要建立起主管機關"},{"start":18060.65,"end":18063.65,"text":"應該掌握什麼樣的責任"},{"start":18063.65,"end":18067.65,"text":"進行干預的這一個系統和制度的建設"},{"start":18069.43,"end":18071.43,"text":"所以說從兩個部分"},{"start":18071.43,"end":18073.43,"text":"這個通報的擴大"},{"start":18073.43,"end":18075.43,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":18077.68,"end":18079.68,"text":"這個現在食安法第七條"},{"start":18079.68,"end":18082.68,"text":"產品的異常才通報"},{"start":18082.68,"end":18084.68,"text":"擴大到原料"},{"start":18084.68,"end":18085.68,"text":"半成品"},{"start":18085.68,"end":18089.68,"text":"我們跟一些高風險的加工鏈"},{"start":18089.68,"end":18092.68,"text":"不管他有沒有收貨"},{"start":18092.68,"end":18094.68,"text":"不管他有沒有買了"},{"start":18094.68,"end":18096.68,"text":"他一發現"},{"start":18096.68,"end":18098.68,"text":"我們這一次的討論"},{"start":18098.68,"end":18099.68,"text":"一共有兩個"},{"start":18099.68,"end":18101.68,"text":"第一個是檢驗機關"},{"start":18101.68,"end":18103.68,"text":"檢驗機關你發現了"},{"start":18103.68,"end":18105.68,"text":"也要通報"},{"start":18105.68,"end":18108.68,"text":"第二個你的生產供應鏈上"},{"start":18108.68,"end":18109.68,"text":"你發現了"},{"start":18109.68,"end":18111.68,"text":"不管你有沒有收貨"},{"start":18111.68,"end":18112.68,"text":"也要通報"},{"start":18113.68,"end":18114.68,"text":"第三個是"},{"start":18114.68,"end":18116.68,"text":"HACCP的認證"},{"start":18116.68,"end":18119.68,"text":"有發現重大異常也要通報"},{"start":18120.84,"end":18123.84,"text":"也強化了HACCP過程裡面"},{"start":18123.84,"end":18124.84,"text":"是啦理論上"},{"start":18124.84,"end":18125.84,"text":"但我要再跟你講"},{"start":18125.84,"end":18128.84,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":18129.77,"end":18130.77,"text":"然後如果你現在說"},{"start":18130.77,"end":18132.77,"text":"對都要通報的話"},{"start":18132.77,"end":18134.77,"text":"那未來任何食品大廠"},{"start":18136.07,"end":18139.07,"text":"在供應商端驗出重金屬"},{"start":18139.07,"end":18142.07,"text":"黃麴毒素塑化劑本品比等"},{"start":18142.07,"end":18144.07,"text":"重大異常事件的鈔標"},{"start":18144.07,"end":18147.07,"text":"只要拒收退貨"},{"start":18148.37,"end":18150.37,"text":"通通都要通報"},{"start":18152.32,"end":18154.32,"text":"都有通報責任"},{"start":18154.32,"end":18156.32,"text":"現在法是要這樣子"},{"start":18156.32,"end":18158.32,"text":"明確的再更擴大"},{"start":18159.99,"end":18161.99,"text":"現行法沒有通報義務"},{"start":18161.99,"end":18162.99,"text":"這一次要補吧"},{"start":18162.99,"end":18163.99,"text":"對這一次"},{"start":18163.99,"end":18165.99,"text":"那我們要講就是說"},{"start":18167.42,"end":18169.42,"text":"重大食安異常"},{"start":18169.42,"end":18170.42,"text":"重大風險"},{"start":18170.42,"end":18172.42,"text":"你要怎麼界定"},{"start":18172.42,"end":18173.42,"text":"你也要想一想"},{"start":18173.42,"end":18175.42,"text":"這些我們懂得言之"},{"start":18175.42,"end":18177.42,"text":"立法修法的目的是"},{"start":18177.42,"end":18179.42,"text":"這一些異常資訊"},{"start":18179.42,"end":18183.42,"text":"不能夠只是停留在業者手上"},{"start":18183.42,"end":18185.42,"text":"資訊沒有進入主管機關"},{"start":18185.42,"end":18187.42,"text":"政府就不可能及早封存"},{"start":18187.42,"end":18189.42,"text":"追查"},{"start":18189.42,"end":18192.42,"text":"比對同來人的流向"},{"start":18192.42,"end":18194.42,"text":"不可能及時通知"},{"start":18194.42,"end":18196.42,"text":"其他下游業者"},{"start":18196.42,"end":18199.42,"text":"就不可能發生預警的作用"},{"start":18199.42,"end":18202.42,"text":"所以有沒有建立風險"},{"start":18202.42,"end":18205.42,"text":"資訊的責任很重要"},{"start":18205.42,"end":18207.42,"text":"而不是只看有沒有買"},{"start":18207.42,"end":18208.42,"text":"然後在這裡"},{"start":18209.73,"end":18211.73,"text":"我們要"},{"start":18211.73,"end":18213.73,"text":"就部長你還要再想一下"},{"start":18215.31,"end":18218.31,"text":"那通報到你這裡來"},{"start":18218.31,"end":18220.31,"text":"通報到你這裡來"},{"start":18220.31,"end":18222.31,"text":"你們要接下來怎麼進行"},{"start":18222.31,"end":18225.31,"text":"因為他可以把不合格的"},{"start":18225.31,"end":18227.31,"text":"拿回去可能賣給工業製造"},{"start":18227.31,"end":18228.31,"text":"可是你怎麼知道"},{"start":18228.31,"end":18230.31,"text":"他真的是賣給工業製造"},{"start":18230.31,"end":18232.31,"text":"然後他會說我會精煉"},{"start":18232.31,"end":18234.31,"text":"精煉成產品是沒有的"},{"start":18234.31,"end":18239.31,"text":"那你怎麼樣確保確認確定安全"},{"start":18239.31,"end":18242.31,"text":"他是真的符合標準的"},{"start":18243.07,"end":18244.07,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":18245.43,"end":18246.43,"text":"屠法不足以執行"},{"start":18246.43,"end":18248.43,"text":"接下來是執行面"},{"start":18248.43,"end":18251.43,"text":"法的執行面很重要"},{"start":18251.43,"end":18253.43,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":18253.43,"end":18256.43,"text":"地方政府有足夠的人跟錢嗎"},{"start":18256.43,"end":18257.43,"text":"法的執行面"},{"start":18258.17,"end":18261.17,"text":"接下來就談地方政府的編制"},{"start":18261.87,"end":18263.87,"text":"需不需要給人跟錢"},{"start":18264.38,"end":18265.38,"text":"專責的"},{"start":18265.38,"end":18267.38,"text":"專職的"},{"start":18267.94,"end":18269.94,"text":"負責的業務承辦員"},{"start":18269.94,"end":18270.94,"text":"需不需要"},{"start":18271.81,"end":18273.81,"text":"這可能也是必要的配套"},{"start":18273.81,"end":18275.81,"text":"你利用現有的人力"},{"start":18275.81,"end":18277.81,"text":"大家都是兼職兼任"},{"start":18278.91,"end":18279.91,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":18279.91,"end":18280.91,"text":"出事了"},{"start":18280.91,"end":18281.91,"text":"大家講說"},{"start":18281.91,"end":18283.91,"text":"你去幾次"},{"start":18283.91,"end":18284.91,"text":"八年沒驗一次"},{"start":18285.93,"end":18287.93,"text":"這都來不及了"},{"start":18287.93,"end":18292.93,"text":"我們想要的是專職專責的這一個業務承辦員"},{"start":18292.93,"end":18297.93,"text":"他對這個HACCP制度的管理是不是落實"},{"start":18297.93,"end":18300.93,"text":"有沒有可能這方面也應該要同時檢討"},{"start":18300.93,"end":18302.93,"text":"這人力的強化這個是要的"},{"start":18302.93,"end":18304.93,"text":"我們過去也一直在"},{"start":18304.93,"end":18305.93,"text":"要專職專責"},{"start":18305.93,"end":18307.93,"text":"稀查的人力"},{"start":18307.93,"end":18308.93,"text":"要專責啊"},{"start":18308.93,"end":18309.93,"text":"不是稀查"},{"start":18309.93,"end":18311.93,"text":"要專職專責"},{"start":18311.93,"end":18313.93,"text":"負責最高風險的"},{"start":18313.93,"end":18315.93,"text":"他就是這幾個項目而已嘛"},{"start":18317.12,"end":18319.12,"text":"哈"},{"start":18318.27,"end":18320.27,"text":"你知道在制度上要彌補"},{"start":18321.57,"end":18323.57,"text":"如果主管機關"},{"start":18323.57,"end":18326.57,"text":"當時知道了這個檢驗結果"},{"start":18326.57,"end":18329.57,"text":"這個風險是有通報進來的"},{"start":18329.57,"end":18331.57,"text":"你在透過製程的調整"},{"start":18331.57,"end":18333.57,"text":"而不是業者自己說了算"},{"start":18334.48,"end":18337.48,"text":"結果現行的制度是沒有這一個制度"},{"start":18338.45,"end":18341.45,"text":"台糖據說是保護了台糖自己的商譽"},{"start":18341.45,"end":18344.45,"text":"並沒有保護到公共的食安"},{"start":18346.08,"end":18348.08,"text":"他只保護到自己的商譽"},{"start":18348.08,"end":18352.08,"text":"可是這據說不能作為風險的終點"},{"start":18352.08,"end":18354.08,"text":"對主管機關來講"},{"start":18354.08,"end":18356.08,"text":"新的制度未來的制度"},{"start":18356.08,"end":18358.08,"text":"我們應當要理解"},{"start":18358.08,"end":18363.08,"text":"而且要把據說當作是啟動封存"},{"start":18363.64,"end":18366.64,"text":"據說一開始據說就通報"},{"start":18366.64,"end":18368.64,"text":"就要啟動封存"},{"start":18368.64,"end":18372.64,"text":"據說就要追查加密檢驗"},{"start":18372.64,"end":18375.64,"text":"或是限制流向的起點"},{"start":18376.43,"end":18379.43,"text":"我們是希望制度是應該要這樣才對"},{"start":18380.21,"end":18382.21,"text":"如果沒有這樣的話"},{"start":18382.63,"end":18384.63,"text":"據說異常資訊"},{"start":18385.12,"end":18388.12,"text":"他就會仍然會不斷地歷史都會重演"},{"start":18389.78,"end":18391.78,"text":"那"},{"start":18391.86,"end":18393.86,"text":"據說要通報"},{"start":18393.86,"end":18395.86,"text":"然後要啟動政府的責任"},{"start":18395.86,"end":18397.86,"text":"很重要為什麼"},{"start":18397.27,"end":18400.27,"text":"這個東西為什麼要專職專責的業務承辦員"},{"start":18400.27,"end":18402.27,"text":"因為未來也有可能"},{"start":18402.27,"end":18405.27,"text":"如果未來一家如品廠"},{"start":18405.27,"end":18410.27,"text":"在供應商端驗出原料奶重大污染"},{"start":18410.27,"end":18411.27,"text":"他據說"},{"start":18412.17,"end":18415.17,"text":"他只是據說他產品安全了"},{"start":18415.17,"end":18418.17,"text":"可是被據說那一批原料會流到哪裡去不知道"},{"start":18419.3,"end":18421.3,"text":"如果一家應用的食品業者"},{"start":18421.3,"end":18425.3,"text":"在供應商端驗出大宗的原料重金屬鈔標"},{"start":18425.3,"end":18427.3,"text":"只是據說"},{"start":18427.3,"end":18428.3,"text":"據說"},{"start":18428.3,"end":18429.3,"text":"退貨"},{"start":18431.04,"end":18432.04,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":18432.04,"end":18433.04,"text":"只是他沒有"},{"start":18433.04,"end":18436.04,"text":"但那一個原料還會再賣給別人"},{"start":18436.04,"end":18439.04,"text":"如果使用油脂這一次類似這樣子"},{"start":18439.04,"end":18440.04,"text":"只是據說"},{"start":18440.04,"end":18442.04,"text":"主管機關不知道"},{"start":18442.04,"end":18445.04,"text":"這個原料還停留在中聯"},{"start":18445.04,"end":18447.04,"text":"等待下一個買方"},{"start":18447.04,"end":18450.04,"text":"下一個買方沒有像台南這麼高標準"},{"start":18450.04,"end":18453.04,"text":"做成食品大家吃下肚"},{"start":18453.04,"end":18455.04,"text":"現行就是這個樣子"},{"start":18455.04,"end":18458.04,"text":"所以這絕對不是一個假設的題目"},{"start":18458.04,"end":18459.04,"text":"中聯就是這樣子"},{"start":18459.04,"end":18462.04,"text":"所以未來的修法我們就是講說"},{"start":18462.04,"end":18464.04,"text":"據說退貨通報"},{"start":18465.87,"end":18468.87,"text":"就是主管機關要去介入"},{"start":18468.87,"end":18471.87,"text":"確認封存流向後續處理"},{"start":18473.26,"end":18475.26,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":18475.26,"end":18477.26,"text":"我們政府的責任就來了"},{"start":18477.26,"end":18479.26,"text":"所以我們這一次我們要再講一遍"},{"start":18479.64,"end":18486.64,"text":"整個最上游的少數壟斷的廠商的原料供應的"},{"start":18486.64,"end":18488.64,"text":"這一些食品業者"},{"start":18488.64,"end":18491.64,"text":"HACCP制度也沒有在做"},{"start":18491.64,"end":18493.64,"text":"也沒有在遵守"},{"start":18493.64,"end":18496.64,"text":"食安法的管理也有制度面的漏洞"},{"start":18497.63,"end":18498.63,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":18498.63,"end":18500.63,"text":"我們在這個裡面"},{"start":18500.63,"end":18501.63,"text":"我們"},{"start":18502.35,"end":18504.35,"text":"一定要開始"},{"start":18504.35,"end":18508.35,"text":"要把自主管理制度收回"},{"start":18508.35,"end":18509.35,"text":"我再強調一次"},{"start":18509.35,"end":18512.35,"text":"以前都是叫業者自主管理"},{"start":18512.35,"end":18515.35,"text":"包括HACCP制度也是叫業者自主管理"},{"start":18516.46,"end":18518.46,"text":"我們從現在開始"},{"start":18518.46,"end":18522.46,"text":"要把業者自主管理收回來"},{"start":18522.46,"end":18525.46,"text":"改成高度的政府監管"},{"start":18527.62,"end":18529.62,"text":"部長你同意嗎"},{"start":18529.62,"end":18531.62,"text":"高度的政府監管"},{"start":18532.14,"end":18534.14,"text":"更高程度的這個管理"},{"start":18534.14,"end":18536.14,"text":"這個是我們絕對會支持"},{"start":18536.14,"end":18538.14,"text":"所以在這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":18538.14,"end":18540.14,"text":"也要求了很多強制性的"},{"start":18540.14,"end":18542.14,"text":"更高程度的管理"},{"start":18542.14,"end":18544.14,"text":"到底是要政府管理"},{"start":18544.14,"end":18545.14,"text":"還是業者自己管理"},{"start":18545.14,"end":18548.14,"text":"包含了外部的專業人員的管理介入"},{"start":18548.14,"end":18549.14,"text":"我現在告訴你喔"},{"start":18549.14,"end":18551.14,"text":"沒有所謂的"},{"start":18551.14,"end":18553.14,"text":"有良心的業者啦"},{"start":18553.14,"end":18556.14,"text":"我現在告訴你沒有這一回事啦"},{"start":18556.14,"end":18557.14,"text":"就這個制度面喔"},{"start":18557.14,"end":18559.14,"text":"你去好好的想一下"},{"start":18559.14,"end":18560.14,"text":"我認為啦"},{"start":18560.14,"end":18563.14,"text":"沒有所謂的有道德有良知的業者啦"},{"start":18563.14,"end":18565.14,"text":"只有法律怎麼規定"},{"start":18565.14,"end":18567.14,"text":"法律是最低的標準"},{"start":18567.14,"end":18569.14,"text":"他都可以不遵守了"},{"start":18569.14,"end":18571.14,"text":"若你還法律是授權給他們"},{"start":18571.14,"end":18572.14,"text":"業者自主管理"},{"start":18572.14,"end":18574.14,"text":"那一定是破功"},{"start":18574.14,"end":18577.14,"text":"而且食安系統性的風暴"},{"start":18577.14,"end":18579.14,"text":"會不斷的上演啦"},{"start":18579.14,"end":18580.14,"text":"這是我提醒你的"},{"start":18580.14,"end":18581.14,"text":"好"},{"start":18581.14,"end":18583.14,"text":"那就這一次的中聯的"},{"start":18583.14,"end":18585.14,"text":"獨有的事件喔"},{"start":18585.14,"end":18586.14,"text":"311號油潮"},{"start":18586.14,"end":18588.14,"text":"我再提醒你一個"},{"start":18588.14,"end":18592.14,"text":"重大的異常不能只追單一交易"},{"start":18592.14,"end":18597.14,"text":"應該要啟動同潮或是同傳奇"},{"start":18597.14,"end":18600.14,"text":"同來源的橫向警示"},{"start":18600.14,"end":18603.14,"text":"未來只要高風險食品原料"},{"start":18603.14,"end":18606.14,"text":"在供應商端驗出重大的鈔標"},{"start":18607.13,"end":18609.13,"text":"你就要開始要求業者"},{"start":18609.13,"end":18611.13,"text":"立即同潮同傳奇"},{"start":18611.13,"end":18613.13,"text":"同來源同製整"},{"start":18613.13,"end":18615.13,"text":"同批次的完整資料"},{"start":18615.13,"end":18617.13,"text":"而並通知可能受影響的買方"},{"start":18618.56,"end":18620.56,"text":"檢驗或暫停使用"},{"start":18620.56,"end":18622.56,"text":"如果沒有這道橫向的指示"},{"start":18622.56,"end":18626.56,"text":"政府會永遠都在等下一個"},{"start":18626.56,"end":18630.56,"text":"下游驗出鈔標再回溯去找上游"},{"start":18631.3,"end":18632.3,"text":"不能這麼被動啊"},{"start":18633.2,"end":18634.2,"text":"他的那個油潮"},{"start":18634.2,"end":18637.2,"text":"跟那個油潮同一批貨來的"},{"start":18637.2,"end":18639.2,"text":"同一個傳奇的"},{"start":18639.2,"end":18640.2,"text":"同一批"},{"start":18641.13,"end":18642.13,"text":"練油的"},{"start":18642.82,"end":18643.82,"text":"其他的東西"},{"start":18644.48,"end":18646.48,"text":"一起查一起驗"},{"start":18647.11,"end":18649.11,"text":"你只驗那一潮也不行"},{"start":18649.11,"end":18651.11,"text":"只驗那一批也不行"},{"start":18651.11,"end":18654.11,"text":"當然你們這次擴大驗了三個月"},{"start":18654.11,"end":18655.11,"text":"起屁"},{"start":18655.26,"end":18657.26,"text":"一共是30批"},{"start":18657.26,"end":18659.26,"text":"不過那個是"},{"start":18659.26,"end":18660.26,"text":"他沒有成批啦"},{"start":18660.26,"end":18662.26,"text":"他是另外那個是在潮"},{"start":18662.26,"end":18663.26,"text":"另外是30批"},{"start":18663.26,"end":18665.26,"text":"我現在跟你說的不是同"},{"start":18665.26,"end":18666.26,"text":"哪幾批而已"},{"start":18666.26,"end":18668.26,"text":"其實同傳奇的啦"},{"start":18668.26,"end":18670.26,"text":"同一批來源的啦"},{"start":18670.5,"end":18672.5,"text":"其實都是有很大的風險"},{"start":18672.5,"end":18673.5,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":18673.5,"end":18676.5,"text":"食品雲不能只追產品流向啦"},{"start":18676.5,"end":18680.5,"text":"如果按照現在食品雲的管理的方法"},{"start":18680.5,"end":18682.5,"text":"你們現在說"},{"start":18682.5,"end":18684.5,"text":"修法要強化數位治理"},{"start":18684.5,"end":18686.5,"text":"那你數位治理要治理什麼"},{"start":18688.35,"end":18689.35,"text":"你們講的啊"},{"start":18689.35,"end":18691.35,"text":"要強化數位治理要治理什麼"},{"start":18691.35,"end":18693.35,"text":"當然就是強化他這個"},{"start":18693.35,"end":18694.35,"text":"我們剛剛前面的通報啦"},{"start":18694.35,"end":18696.35,"text":"包含這個檢驗的通報"},{"start":18696.35,"end":18697.35,"text":"我們會把它建立起來"},{"start":18697.35,"end":18699.35,"text":"過去的檢驗是沒有直接通報"},{"start":18699.35,"end":18700.35,"text":"對"},{"start":18700.35,"end":18703.35,"text":"你們的過去只記錄進貨啦"},{"start":18703.35,"end":18704.35,"text":"出貨啦"},{"start":18704.35,"end":18705.35,"text":"流向啦"},{"start":18705.35,"end":18707.35,"text":"只看得到已經進入供應鏈的資料"},{"start":18707.35,"end":18709.35,"text":"然後沒有看到被退貨的"},{"start":18709.35,"end":18710.35,"text":"不合格的"},{"start":18710.35,"end":18712.35,"text":"風潮採樣的"},{"start":18712.35,"end":18714.35,"text":"拒收檢驗異常的"},{"start":18714.35,"end":18716.35,"text":"通通都沒有嘛"},{"start":18716.35,"end":18719.35,"text":"那看不到他最早的風險訊號嘛"},{"start":18719.35,"end":18720.35,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":18720.35,"end":18722.35,"text":"可是你看到這個風險訊號你知道喔"},{"start":18722.35,"end":18724.35,"text":"他都沒有出現在"},{"start":18726,"end":18728,"text":"台糖的生產資料裡面"},{"start":18728,"end":18730,"text":"也不會出現在台糖的產品流向"},{"start":18731.25,"end":18734.25,"text":"那也沒有進入台糖的進貨資料"},{"start":18734.25,"end":18735.25,"text":"通通都沒有啊"},{"start":18736.46,"end":18737.46,"text":"都沒有喔"},{"start":18737.46,"end":18739.46,"text":"可是這個油沒有消失啊"},{"start":18739.46,"end":18740.46,"text":"這一批油沒有消失吧"},{"start":18740.46,"end":18742.46,"text":"它仍然在311油槽裡面"},{"start":18743.67,"end":18745.67,"text":"就是說你整個食品雲的制度"},{"start":18745.67,"end":18747.67,"text":"只看得到產品的流向"},{"start":18747.67,"end":18750.67,"text":"但是看不到重大異常的檢驗結果"},{"start":18750.67,"end":18751.67,"text":"如果說"},{"start":18751.67,"end":18755.67,"text":"業者在供應商端採樣驗收前檢驗"},{"start":18755.67,"end":18760.67,"text":"委託代工檢驗自主檢驗第三方實驗室檢驗"},{"start":18760.67,"end":18764.67,"text":"發現重大的超標不合格拒收退貨風潮"},{"start":18764.67,"end":18766.67,"text":"暫停存放的訊息"},{"start":18767.02,"end":18769.02,"text":"這個就是很重要的內幕的蘋果的資料"},{"start":18771.19,"end":18774.19,"text":"但是對我們主管機關而言"},{"start":18774.19,"end":18777.19,"text":"這個就是一個風險的警訊"},{"start":18777.19,"end":18779.19,"text":"我們都應該要掌握"},{"start":18779.19,"end":18782.19,"text":"我不是說所有不合格都要登錄"},{"start":18782.19,"end":18788.19,"text":"但是應該強制登錄的是高風險食品業別"},{"start":18788.19,"end":18791.19,"text":"重大污染物超過法定標準或達一定倍數"},{"start":18791.19,"end":18794.19,"text":"可能影響多家下游的異常結果"},{"start":18794.19,"end":18796.19,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":18796.19,"end":18798.19,"text":"我們要記錄"},{"start":18798.19,"end":18803.19,"text":"你們的方向跟我講的方向是一致的嗎"},{"start":18803.19,"end":18807.19,"text":"對 就是我們過去在這個登錄的部分是"},{"start":18807.19,"end":18809.19,"text":"禁跟出"},{"start":18809.19,"end":18812.19,"text":"而且只登錄合格"},{"start":18812.19,"end":18815.19,"text":"只登錄合格的禁跟出"},{"start":18815.19,"end":18817.19,"text":"對 他就是進入他的加工鏈的"},{"start":18817.19,"end":18819.19,"text":"他是合格的"},{"start":18819.19,"end":18821.19,"text":"但我希望你們開始要建置"},{"start":18821.19,"end":18824.19,"text":"登錄不合格的叫他要登錄出來"},{"start":18825.43,"end":18827.43,"text":"我們不能夠只要求業者"},{"start":18827.43,"end":18830.43,"text":"把合格的資料給政府看"},{"start":18830.43,"end":18832.43,"text":"只登錄合格的資料"},{"start":18832.43,"end":18837.43,"text":"真正的風險往往是在於不合格的資料"},{"start":18837.43,"end":18841.43,"text":"因為合格資料告訴政府什麼可以出貨"},{"start":18841.43,"end":18844.43,"text":"可是不合格的資料告訴你"},{"start":18844.43,"end":18847.43,"text":"哪裡可能正要出事了"},{"start":18847.62,"end":18849.62,"text":"所以你的食品雲登錄"},{"start":18849.62,"end":18853.62,"text":"只要求業者登錄進貨出貨產品流向"},{"start":18853.62,"end":18857.62,"text":"沒有納入不合格的重大的異常的檢驗結果"},{"start":18858.47,"end":18860.47,"text":"政府永遠慢半拍"},{"start":18860.47,"end":18863.47,"text":"人民永遠都要把有毒的吃進去以後"},{"start":18863.47,"end":18866.47,"text":"才在那裡氣急敗壞就擇於政府"},{"start":18867.53,"end":18871.53,"text":"然後永遠要等下游驗出超標產品"},{"start":18871.53,"end":18877.53,"text":"已經進入所有的各個機關、團散、家庭"},{"start":18877.53,"end":18880.53,"text":"政府才要回頭追流向查原因"},{"start":18880.53,"end":18883.53,"text":"這不是數位治理"},{"start":18883.53,"end":18887.53,"text":"而是已經發生的交易記錄電子化而已"},{"start":18887.53,"end":18891.53,"text":"所以真正有預警價值的是"},{"start":18891.53,"end":18895.53,"text":"要登錄重大異常檢驗資訊"},{"start":18895.53,"end":18897.53,"text":"不能讓這個異常檢驗資訊"},{"start":18897.53,"end":18899.53,"text":"留在業者手上而已"},{"start":18899.53,"end":18900.53,"text":"叫他登錄"},{"start":18901.87,"end":18903.87,"text":"但如果他不登錄"},{"start":18903.87,"end":18905.87,"text":"我們第三方檢驗出來"},{"start":18905.87,"end":18909.87,"text":"或是你的買主給你退貨了也會通報"},{"start":18911.29,"end":18913.29,"text":"一樣要通報啊"},{"start":18913.21,"end":18916.21,"text":"你會被通報不如你自己主動登錄啊"},{"start":18916.21,"end":18918.21,"text":"當你登錄了異常的時候"},{"start":18918.21,"end":18921.21,"text":"你主管機關要通知地方政府啊"},{"start":18921.21,"end":18923.21,"text":"你對那一批次那一些貨"},{"start":18924.7,"end":18926.7,"text":"你要高度的監管"},{"start":18926.7,"end":18928.7,"text":"因為他超標很多"},{"start":18929.6,"end":18931.6,"text":"最後他怎麼處理安不安全"},{"start":18931.6,"end":18933.6,"text":"流向哪裡"},{"start":18934.17,"end":18936.17,"text":"政府要給人民交代"},{"start":18938.07,"end":18940.07,"text":"我最後再講最後一句就是說"},{"start":18940.07,"end":18942.07,"text":"人民的期待是"},{"start":18942.07,"end":18944.07,"text":"在架上的"},{"start":18945.31,"end":18947.31,"text":"政府都應該是把關過"},{"start":18947.31,"end":18949.31,"text":"都是安全的"},{"start":18949.31,"end":18951.31,"text":"而現在並不是"},{"start":18951.31,"end":18955.31,"text":"我們希望未來都應該要是這樣子"},{"start":18957.29,"end":18959.29,"text":"這樣子部長"},{"start":18959.29,"end":18961.29,"text":"叫他們不合格異常要登錄"},{"start":18961.29,"end":18965.29,"text":"如果你HACCP制度要通報了"},{"start":18965.29,"end":18969.29,"text":"如果你的第三方檢驗的實驗室要通報了"},{"start":18969.29,"end":18973.29,"text":"如果向台糖買到也要通報了"},{"start":18972.83,"end":18974.83,"text":"那也好"},{"start":18974.43,"end":18976.43,"text":"登錄對他們來講"},{"start":18976.68,"end":18978.68,"text":"是同樣一件事"},{"start":18980.24,"end":18982.24,"text":"所以對業者來講沒有壓力了啦"},{"start":18983.63,"end":18987.63,"text":"這是越透明越公開"},{"start":18987.93,"end":18989.93,"text":"對消費者有保障"},{"start":18989.93,"end":18991.93,"text":"但對業者"},{"start":18991.65,"end":18993.65,"text":"自己來講也是有保障的啦"},{"start":18993.65,"end":18995.65,"text":"不要被人家通報了"},{"start":18995.65,"end":18997.65,"text":"再來被處分啦"},{"start":18997.65,"end":18999.65,"text":"對不對"},{"start":19000.15,"end":19002.15,"text":"部長你有同意嗎"},{"start":19002.15,"end":19004.15,"text":"因為這次我們是要求連這個"},{"start":19004.15,"end":19006.15,"text":"自設實驗室的檢驗也要通報"},{"start":19006.15,"end":19008.15,"text":"就等於是要登錄"},{"start":19008.15,"end":19010.15,"text":"概念是一樣"},{"start":19010.15,"end":19012.15,"text":"是沒有錯"},{"start":19012.15,"end":19014.15,"text":"所以我們希望所有制度都不是參考用的"},{"start":19014.15,"end":19016.15,"text":"你們目前為止HACCP制度"},{"start":19016.15,"end":19018.15,"text":"不是只有使用油紙啦"},{"start":19018.15,"end":19020.15,"text":"HACCP的"},{"start":19020.15,"end":19022.15,"text":"符合這個工廠製造HACCP的廠商"},{"start":19022.15,"end":19024.15,"text":"有幾間全國"},{"start":19026.68,"end":19028.68,"text":"其實HACCP"},{"start":19028.68,"end":19030.68,"text":"水瓶廠都是大廠"},{"start":19030.68,"end":19032.68,"text":"超級大廠"},{"start":19031.55,"end":19033.55,"text":"食藥署署長"},{"start":19033.55,"end":19035.55,"text":"所有HACCP"},{"start":19035.55,"end":19037.55,"text":"制度的所有食品加工廠"},{"start":19037.55,"end":19039.55,"text":"全部都應該"},{"start":19039.55,"end":19041.55,"text":"好好的"},{"start":19041.55,"end":19043.55,"text":"盤整一次啦"},{"start":19043.55,"end":19045.55,"text":"造假的"},{"start":19045.55,"end":19047.55,"text":"百分之百"},{"start":19047.55,"end":19049.55,"text":"很多啦"},{"start":19049.55,"end":19051.55,"text":"很多啦"},{"start":19051.28,"end":19053.28,"text":"虛擬偽儀啦"},{"start":19053.28,"end":19055.28,"text":"書面作業啦"},{"start":19054.88,"end":19056.88,"text":"不是真正的HACCP啦"},{"start":19056.88,"end":19058.88,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":19058.88,"end":19060.88,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":19060.82,"end":19062.82,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":19062.98,"end":19064.98,"text":"好 抱歉我再問最後一句"},{"start":19064.98,"end":19066.98,"text":"一個啦 因為台灣苦茶油的事情"},{"start":19068.73,"end":19070.73,"text":"我現在問署長"},{"start":19070.73,"end":19072.73,"text":"苦茶油沒有品名標示標準"},{"start":19072.73,"end":19074.73,"text":"對不對"},{"start":19075.35,"end":19077.35,"text":"沒有制定品名標示標準"},{"start":19077.35,"end":19079.35,"text":"意思是說"},{"start":19079.35,"end":19081.35,"text":"苦茶油根本台灣沒有界定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":19081.35,"end":19083.35,"text":"沒有嘛"},{"start":19084.04,"end":19086.04,"text":"這個部分我們"},{"start":19086.04,"end":19088.04,"text":"知道這個要做一些修正"},{"start":19088.04,"end":19090.04,"text":"油的部分油品的部分"},{"start":19090.04,"end":19092.04,"text":"這些是本品比"},{"start":19092.04,"end":19094.04,"text":"沒有不是這樣子啦"},{"start":19094.04,"end":19096.04,"text":"第一個苦茶油"},{"start":19096.04,"end":19098.04,"text":"台灣沒有"},{"start":19098.04,"end":19100.04,"text":"制定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":19100.04,"end":19102.04,"text":"的標準"},{"start":19102.04,"end":19104.04,"text":"沒有品名標示標準"},{"start":19104.04,"end":19106.04,"text":"所以混油也可以叫做苦茶油"},{"start":19106.04,"end":19108.04,"text":"第二個"},{"start":19108.04,"end":19110.04,"text":"因為沒有規定"},{"start":19110.04,"end":19112.04,"text":"什麼才能夠叫做苦茶油"},{"start":19112.04,"end":19114.04,"text":"所以會有混油"},{"start":19113.79,"end":19115.79,"text":"但是台灣目前沒有"},{"start":19115.79,"end":19117.79,"text":"混油的檢驗方法"},{"start":19117.79,"end":19119.79,"text":"對不對"},{"start":19119.25,"end":19121.25,"text":"苦茶油的混油檢驗方法"},{"start":19122.09,"end":19124.09,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":19124.09,"end":19126.09,"text":"這個部分的確我們在積極的研議"},{"start":19126.09,"end":19128.09,"text":"因為裡面有混甲"},{"start":19128.09,"end":19130.09,"text":"混沙拉油大豆油等等"},{"start":19130.09,"end":19132.09,"text":"其實它的成分的部分"},{"start":19132.09,"end":19134.09,"text":"以目前的檢驗我們有信心"},{"start":19134.09,"end":19136.09,"text":"應該是可以開發出來的"},{"start":19136.09,"end":19138.09,"text":"好你們現在目前沒有檢驗方法"},{"start":19138.09,"end":19140.09,"text":"所以我講這個是什麼意思呢"},{"start":19140.09,"end":19142.09,"text":"因為新聞報導"},{"start":19142.09,"end":19144.09,"text":"中國的種子來了"},{"start":19144.09,"end":19146.09,"text":"檢驗了沒有本品比超標"},{"start":19147.37,"end":19149.37,"text":"他是這樣很多報導是這樣講的"},{"start":19149.37,"end":19151.37,"text":"他不是驗那個"},{"start":19151.37,"end":19153.37,"text":"苦茶籽"},{"start":19153.37,"end":19155.37,"text":"他是說做出來的苦茶油沒有超標"},{"start":19155.37,"end":19157.37,"text":"對但是有機商店的"},{"start":19157.37,"end":19159.37,"text":"永豐宇的都超標啊"},{"start":19159.37,"end":19161.37,"text":"產品一樣是最末端的產品都超標啊"},{"start":19161.37,"end":19163.37,"text":"我現在不是要講這個啦"},{"start":19163.37,"end":19165.37,"text":"我是要跟你講"},{"start":19165.37,"end":19167.37,"text":"其實我自己高度的懷疑"},{"start":19167.37,"end":19169.37,"text":"是混油啦"},{"start":19170.17,"end":19172.17,"text":"真正超標的來源"},{"start":19172.17,"end":19174.17,"text":"沒有可能其實是加很多的大豆沙拉油"},{"start":19174.17,"end":19176.17,"text":"因為"},{"start":19176.17,"end":19178.17,"text":"加了大豆沙拉油的苦茶油"},{"start":19178.17,"end":19180.17,"text":"沒有違法因為法律沒有"},{"start":19180.17,"end":19182.17,"text":"訂定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":19182.97,"end":19184.97,"text":"現在目前也沒有檢驗"},{"start":19184.97,"end":19186.97,"text":"有沒有混油的檢驗方法"},{"start":19186.97,"end":19188.97,"text":"沒有"},{"start":19188.97,"end":19190.97,"text":"我希望你們要去改善"},{"start":19191.28,"end":19193.28,"text":"你們要嚴格管理啦"},{"start":19193.28,"end":19195.28,"text":"第三個"},{"start":19195.28,"end":19197.28,"text":"我們很多關心"},{"start":19197.28,"end":19199.28,"text":"台灣農業的"},{"start":19199.28,"end":19201.28,"text":"也有很多委員"},{"start":19201.28,"end":19203.28,"text":"在關心的我們希望"},{"start":19203.28,"end":19205.28,"text":"原料來源果要標示"},{"start":19205.28,"end":19207.28,"text":"這個你們會不會支持"},{"start":19208.34,"end":19210.34,"text":"原料來源果"},{"start":19210.34,"end":19212.34,"text":"現在的油品的標示有要求"},{"start":19212.34,"end":19214.34,"text":"如果你是有混油的"},{"start":19214.34,"end":19216.34,"text":"你就不能稱為"},{"start":19216.34,"end":19218.34,"text":"你要用調和油的方式標示"},{"start":19218.34,"end":19220.34,"text":"沒有你的苦茶油"},{"start":19220.34,"end":19222.34,"text":"沒有訂出品名標示標準啊"},{"start":19222.34,"end":19224.34,"text":"你哪裡有混油的"},{"start":19224.34,"end":19226.34,"text":"調和油這種名稱"},{"start":19226.6,"end":19228.6,"text":"這個是通則啊"},{"start":19228.6,"end":19230.6,"text":"好來但我不是要講這個"},{"start":19230.6,"end":19232.6,"text":"我是講這個是一樣"},{"start":19232.6,"end":19234.6,"text":"是沒有混油的話沒有混油"},{"start":19234.6,"end":19236.6,"text":"但是你的種子來自於中國"},{"start":19236.6,"end":19238.6,"text":"你要標示原料種子"},{"start":19238.6,"end":19240.6,"text":"來自於中國"},{"start":19241.28,"end":19243.28,"text":"我是要要求這個"},{"start":19243.64,"end":19245.64,"text":"有沒有意見"},{"start":19245.64,"end":19247.64,"text":"對原料原產地的部分"},{"start":19247.64,"end":19249.64,"text":"我們的確這個部分"},{"start":19249.64,"end":19251.64,"text":"原料原產地"},{"start":19251.64,"end":19253.64,"text":"特別是這些農產品的"},{"start":19253.64,"end":19255.64,"text":"這一些原料原產地"},{"start":19255.64,"end":19257.64,"text":"要標示來源果"},{"start":19257.64,"end":19259.64,"text":"這個是社會高度關注"},{"start":19259.64,"end":19261.64,"text":"也是這一次苦茶油事件裡面"},{"start":19261.64,"end":19263.64,"text":"大家相當關注的"},{"start":19263.64,"end":19265.64,"text":"但是我們"},{"start":19265.64,"end":19267.64,"text":"這個要"},{"start":19267.64,"end":19269.64,"text":"修改要立法"},{"start":19269.64,"end":19271.64,"text":"要修法之外"},{"start":19271.64,"end":19273.64,"text":"就這樣"},{"start":19272.6,"end":19274.6,"text":"苦茶油的相關的"},{"start":19274.6,"end":19276.6,"text":"包括其他的油品都一樣"},{"start":19277,"end":19279,"text":"品名標示標準"},{"start":19279,"end":19281,"text":"然後規定出來以後就要有檢驗的方法"},{"start":19281,"end":19283,"text":"沒有檢驗方法"},{"start":19283,"end":19285,"text":"你沒有辦法證明它混油"},{"start":19286,"end":19288,"text":"你說不可以混油"},{"start":19288,"end":19290,"text":"現行的通則就規定不能混"},{"start":19290,"end":19292,"text":"混的話要標示調和油"},{"start":19292,"end":19294,"text":"但是你沒有"},{"start":19294,"end":19296,"text":"苦茶油混油的檢驗方法"},{"start":19296,"end":19298,"text":"你怎麼去確認"},{"start":19298,"end":19300,"text":"它的混油"},{"start":19300,"end":19302,"text":"是真的混油"},{"start":19302,"end":19304,"text":"它在那裡"},{"start":19304.39,"end":19306.39,"text":"硬拗你怎麼確認"},{"start":19306.39,"end":19308.39,"text":"你連檢驗方法都沒有公告"},{"start":19308.39,"end":19310.39,"text":"現在也沒辦法檢驗"},{"start":19310.95,"end":19312.95,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":19312.34,"end":19314.34,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":19314.34,"end":19316.34,"text":"當然這個檢驗方法"},{"start":19316.34,"end":19318.34,"text":"現在食藥署在積極的開發"},{"start":19318.34,"end":19320.34,"text":"去驗它關於它的"},{"start":19320.34,"end":19322.34,"text":"脂肪酸的比例"},{"start":19322.34,"end":19324.34,"text":"不同的脂肪酸"},{"start":19324.34,"end":19326.34,"text":"不過我們現在在查的時候"},{"start":19326.34,"end":19328.34,"text":"是根據它的原料的"},{"start":19328.34,"end":19330.34,"text":"採購證明"},{"start":19330.34,"end":19332.34,"text":"你們現在要證明它是中國原料"},{"start":19332.34,"end":19334.34,"text":"還是在地"},{"start":19334.34,"end":19336.34,"text":"但是本篇比的"},{"start":19336.38,"end":19338.38,"text":"能加中國原料製成的苦茶油"},{"start":19338.38,"end":19340.38,"text":"就是有好幾批"},{"start":19340.38,"end":19342.38,"text":"驗出來沒有超標"},{"start":19343.07,"end":19345.07,"text":"我不是替中國總指講話"},{"start":19345.07,"end":19347.07,"text":"我是要告訴你"},{"start":19347.07,"end":19349.07,"text":"真正有可能風險的來源"},{"start":19349.07,"end":19351.07,"text":"是來自於混油"},{"start":19350.93,"end":19352.93,"text":"風險的來源"},{"start":19352.93,"end":19354.93,"text":"在中聯你們公布那有問題的"},{"start":19354.93,"end":19356.93,"text":"批次流向的時候"},{"start":19356.93,"end":19358.93,"text":"就很多自由工廠"},{"start":19358.93,"end":19360.93,"text":"買了很多大豆沙拉油"},{"start":19360.93,"end":19362.93,"text":"這個是事實"},{"start":19362.93,"end":19364.93,"text":"包括苦茶油工廠"},{"start":19364.93,"end":19366.93,"text":"也有人買大豆沙拉油"},{"start":19367.81,"end":19369.81,"text":"所以混油你們一直都沒有"},{"start":19369.81,"end":19371.81,"text":"朝混油的方向"},{"start":19371.81,"end":19373.81,"text":"那沒有朝混油的方向"},{"start":19373.81,"end":19375.81,"text":"我也可以理解因為你們也沒有"},{"start":19375.81,"end":19377.81,"text":"檢驗的方法"},{"start":19377.81,"end":19379.81,"text":"所以對你們來講是一個非常困難的"},{"start":19379.81,"end":19381.81,"text":"那過去沒有做"},{"start":19381.81,"end":19383.81,"text":"出規範"},{"start":19383.81,"end":19385.81,"text":"未來我們希望你們儘速"},{"start":19385.81,"end":19387.81,"text":"馬上把該"},{"start":19387.81,"end":19389.81,"text":"補起來的豆馬上補起來"},{"start":19389.81,"end":19391.81,"text":"把食品安全"},{"start":19391.81,"end":19393.81,"text":"還給我們人民"},{"start":19393.81,"end":19395.81,"text":"是這樣子"},{"start":19396.53,"end":19398.53,"text":"我們趕快來開發這個檢驗"},{"start":19403.41,"end":19405.41,"text":"好"},{"start":19405.41,"end":19407.41,"text":"謝謝我們林主任委員"},{"start":19407.41,"end":19409.41,"text":"那我們現在休息到兩點半"},{"start":19409.54,"end":19411.54,"text":"兩點三十分"},{"start":21427.7,"end":21429.7,"text":"好我們現在開始開會"},{"start":21433.78,"end":21435.78,"text":"好那請我們王政序委員"},{"start":21447.57,"end":21449.57,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":21449.59,"end":21451.59,"text":"我們有請衛福部時部長"},{"start":21452.73,"end":21454.73,"text":"經濟部賴次長"},{"start":21454.73,"end":21456.73,"text":"食藥署江署長"},{"start":21456.73,"end":21458.73,"text":"台唐的蔡副總"},{"start":21460.14,"end":21462.14,"text":"部長好"},{"start":21464.14,"end":21466.14,"text":"大家好"},{"start":21466.14,"end":21468.14,"text":"我想一開始還是要針對"},{"start":21468.14,"end":21470.14,"text":"台唐的部分這是我們今天"},{"start":21470.14,"end":21472.14,"text":"這個專報的主題"},{"start":21472.14,"end":21474.14,"text":"行政機關來"},{"start":21474.14,"end":21476.14,"text":"做一點說明"},{"start":21476.14,"end":21478.14,"text":"主要還是這三大項"},{"start":21479.04,"end":21481.04,"text":"早上已經講過太多太多次了"},{"start":21481.04,"end":21483.04,"text":"不過我相信"},{"start":21483.04,"end":21485.04,"text":"還是需要再強調一次"},{"start":21485.04,"end":21487.04,"text":"那就簡短麻煩部長"},{"start":21487.04,"end":21489.04,"text":"代表針對這三個"},{"start":21489.04,"end":21491.04,"text":"台唐的通報是否是法定義務"},{"start":21491.04,"end":21493.04,"text":"那台唐"},{"start":21493.04,"end":21495.04,"text":"買中聯這些辦成品是用來"},{"start":21495.04,"end":21497.04,"text":"做什麼"},{"start":21497.04,"end":21499.04,"text":"做一項如果在修食安法"},{"start":21499.04,"end":21501.04,"text":"要求原料辦成品"},{"start":21501.04,"end":21503.04,"text":"有回應到這個衛生安全之餘"},{"start":21503.04,"end":21505.04,"text":"有通報義務的時候"},{"start":21505.04,"end":21507.04,"text":"主管機關的立場"},{"start":21507.04,"end":21509.04,"text":"麻煩部長"},{"start":21509.04,"end":21511.04,"text":"簡單的再跟大家做一次的報告"},{"start":21511.04,"end":21513.04,"text":"好跟委員說明"},{"start":21513.04,"end":21515.04,"text":"在我們整個食安"},{"start":21515.04,"end":21517.04,"text":"的概念裡面我們一直"},{"start":21517.04,"end":21519.04,"text":"強調全民共同監督"},{"start":21519.04,"end":21521.04,"text":"所以每個人"},{"start":21521.04,"end":21523.04,"text":"不論是廠商不論是"},{"start":21523.04,"end":21525.04,"text":"消費者只要有這一些"},{"start":21525.04,"end":21527.04,"text":"這個發現的這個有害"},{"start":21527.04,"end":21529.04,"text":"有這個健康危害之餘的"},{"start":21529.04,"end":21531.04,"text":"來通報我們都是歡迎"},{"start":21531.04,"end":21533.04,"text":"也很鼓勵"},{"start":21533.04,"end":21535.04,"text":"但是回到依法論法這個是"},{"start":21535.04,"end":21537.04,"text":"屬於的強制義務的部分"},{"start":21537.04,"end":21539.04,"text":"那麼在這個"},{"start":21539.04,"end":21541.04,"text":"食安法第七條就寫得很清楚"},{"start":21541.04,"end":21543.04,"text":"那是食品業者"},{"start":21543.04,"end":21545.04,"text":"針對他的產品"},{"start":21545.04,"end":21547.04,"text":"那麼有這個健康危害之餘的時候"},{"start":21547.04,"end":21549.04,"text":"他要有向"},{"start":21549.04,"end":21551.04,"text":"這個主管機關通報的義務"},{"start":21551.04,"end":21553.04,"text":"所以這個是第一個很清楚"},{"start":21553.04,"end":21555.04,"text":"那第二個呢"},{"start":21555.04,"end":21557.04,"text":"那麼什麼叫做危害健康之餘呢"},{"start":21557.04,"end":21559.04,"text":"那就要看他是哪一個樣態"},{"start":21559.04,"end":21561.04,"text":"那麼在現在食安法裡面"},{"start":21561.04,"end":21563.04,"text":"有一種是食品添加物"},{"start":21563.04,"end":21565.04,"text":"這個是在這個第三條明訂的"},{"start":21565.04,"end":21567.04,"text":"那麼食品添加物呢"},{"start":21567.04,"end":21569.04,"text":"沒有說可以添加的"},{"start":21569.04,"end":21571.04,"text":"不得添加的"},{"start":21571.04,"end":21573.04,"text":"那個就是通通要通報"},{"start":21573.04,"end":21575.04,"text":"那個就是違反這個"},{"start":21575.04,"end":21577.04,"text":"有這個危害健康安全之餘"},{"start":21577.04,"end":21579.04,"text":"那如果是訂有衛生安全標準的"},{"start":21579.04,"end":21581.04,"text":"就看那個標準"},{"start":21581.04,"end":21583.04,"text":"訂的是什麼品項"},{"start":21583.04,"end":21585.04,"text":"那超過標準那他就會"},{"start":21585.04,"end":21587.04,"text":"有危害這個健康之餘"},{"start":21587.04,"end":21589.04,"text":"所以以這個油脂類為"},{"start":21589.04,"end":21591.04,"text":"為例我們訂的是"},{"start":21591.04,"end":21593.04,"text":"實用油脂的BAP"},{"start":21593.04,"end":21595.04,"text":"不包含"},{"start":21595.04,"end":21597.04,"text":"跟油脂製造的所有的東西"},{"start":21597.04,"end":21599.04,"text":"不是的 我們是"},{"start":21599.04,"end":21601.04,"text":"只有針對的就是"},{"start":21601.04,"end":21603.04,"text":"實用油脂的BAP標準"},{"start":21603.04,"end":21605.04,"text":"那麼因此台糖這一次所購買的"},{"start":21605.04,"end":21607.04,"text":"這個是叫脫膠原油"},{"start":21607.04,"end":21609.04,"text":"我們沒有訂脫膠原油"},{"start":21609.04,"end":21611.04,"text":"我們也沒有訂黃豆"},{"start":21611.04,"end":21613.04,"text":"他的BAP標準"},{"start":21613.04,"end":21615.04,"text":"是訂在這個所謂的"},{"start":21615.04,"end":21617.04,"text":"實用最終產品的"},{"start":21617.04,"end":21619.04,"text":"這個實用油脂"},{"start":21619.04,"end":21621.04,"text":"所以從這樣來"},{"start":21621.04,"end":21623.04,"text":"了解大概就很清楚的"},{"start":21623.04,"end":21625.04,"text":"那麼不過未來在"},{"start":21625.04,"end":21627.04,"text":"修食安法特別是第七條"},{"start":21627.04,"end":21629.04,"text":"的部分我們也做了大幅的"},{"start":21629.04,"end":21631.04,"text":"修正 那麼包含"},{"start":21631.04,"end":21633.04,"text":"這個通報的"},{"start":21633.04,"end":21635.04,"text":"義務 那麼甚至通報"},{"start":21635.04,"end":21637.04,"text":"的對象 那麼"},{"start":21637.04,"end":21639.04,"text":"相關的罰則的"},{"start":21639.04,"end":21641.04,"text":"提升 那麼我們都會"},{"start":21641.04,"end":21643.04,"text":"有提出相關的修法來"},{"start":21643.04,"end":21645.04,"text":"精進整個預警的"},{"start":21645.04,"end":21647.04,"text":"效果 所以再請"},{"start":21647.04,"end":21649.04,"text":"再請委員屆時再給我們一些"},{"start":21649.04,"end":21651.04,"text":"指教 好 其實我們"},{"start":21651.04,"end":21653.04,"text":"很期待趕快能夠"},{"start":21653.04,"end":21655.04,"text":"開始修這個食安法"},{"start":21655.04,"end":21657.04,"text":"能逐條來審查"},{"start":21657.04,"end":21659.04,"text":"那也謝謝我們幾位"},{"start":21659.04,"end":21661.04,"text":"官員 那就麻煩其他"},{"start":21661.04,"end":21663.04,"text":"官員請回座 除了我們部長"},{"start":21663.04,"end":21665.04,"text":"持續來跟我們來一起討論以外"},{"start":21665.04,"end":21667.04,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":21667.04,"end":21669.04,"text":"那這陣子的"},{"start":21669.04,"end":21671.04,"text":"這個自來油的事件"},{"start":21671.04,"end":21673.04,"text":"我認為啦"},{"start":21673.04,"end":21675.04,"text":"當務之急應該是要趕快來"},{"start":21675.04,"end":21677.04,"text":"跟修補食安法現有的這些"},{"start":21677.04,"end":21679.04,"text":"法規的缺漏"},{"start":21679.04,"end":21681.04,"text":"從制度面來落實"},{"start":21681.04,"end":21683.04,"text":"防堵 避免這些的案件"},{"start":21683.04,"end":21685.04,"text":"再次的發生 我想"},{"start":21685.04,"end":21687.04,"text":"這是國人非常非常的"},{"start":21687.04,"end":21689.04,"text":"期待 那也"},{"start":21689.32,"end":21691.32,"text":"一定要把這個事情做好"},{"start":21691.32,"end":21693.32,"text":"不過在這個過程裡面我們也看到一則"},{"start":21693.32,"end":21695.32,"text":"新聞 就是台中市議員"},{"start":21695.32,"end":21697.32,"text":"他有"},{"start":21697.32,"end":21699.32,"text":"指出說台中市政府明年度的"},{"start":21699.32,"end":21701.32,"text":"食安預算比今年"},{"start":21701.32,"end":21703.32,"text":"減少變略了一千多萬"},{"start":21703.32,"end":21705.32,"text":"那市政府的"},{"start":21705.32,"end":21707.32,"text":"解釋是說因為中央少給了"},{"start":21707.32,"end":21709.32,"text":"食安獎勵金"},{"start":21709.32,"end":21711.32,"text":"那這個"},{"start":21711.32,"end":21713.32,"text":"這筆的經費的叫做"},{"start":21713.32,"end":21715.32,"text":"食安獎勵金嘛 那意思就是說"},{"start":21715.32,"end":21717.32,"text":"應該是"},{"start":21717.32,"end":21719.32,"text":"地方政府把食安法官的表現"},{"start":21719.32,"end":21721.32,"text":"很優良 值得"},{"start":21721.32,"end":21723.32,"text":"做更多的獎勵的時候"},{"start":21723.32,"end":21725.32,"text":"中央才會給額外的肯定"},{"start":21725.32,"end":21727.32,"text":"跟實質的鼓勵"},{"start":21727.32,"end":21729.32,"text":"這是一個bonus的概念 我想大家"},{"start":21729.32,"end":21731.32,"text":"從這個名稱上來看是"},{"start":21731.32,"end":21733.32,"text":"清楚的"},{"start":21733.32,"end":21735.32,"text":"所以如果是一筆額外的獎勵金"},{"start":21735.32,"end":21737.32,"text":"他地方政府沒有"},{"start":21737.32,"end":21739.32,"text":"爭取到這一筆獎勵的時候"},{"start":21739.32,"end":21741.32,"text":"那直接來減少變略地方"},{"start":21741.32,"end":21743.32,"text":"整體的基礎"},{"start":21743.32,"end":21745.32,"text":"食安的預算 這感覺怪怪"},{"start":21745.32,"end":21747.32,"text":"我不知道部長你怎麼想"},{"start":21747.32,"end":21749.32,"text":"有沒有覺得怪怪"},{"start":21749.32,"end":21751.32,"text":"這個說法到底正不正確和不合理"},{"start":21751.32,"end":21753.32,"text":"那這個食安獎勵金"},{"start":21753.32,"end":21755.32,"text":"他的性質是什麼"},{"start":21755.32,"end":21757.32,"text":"那是不是部長也可以讓大家知道一下"},{"start":21757.32,"end":21759.32,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":21759.32,"end":21761.32,"text":"這兩年我們特別"},{"start":21761.32,"end":21763.32,"text":"也向行政院爭取"},{"start":21763.32,"end":21765.32,"text":"行政院也"},{"start":21765.32,"end":21767.32,"text":"非常的支持"},{"start":21767.32,"end":21769.32,"text":"讓我們有在"},{"start":21769.32,"end":21771.32,"text":"從114年到"},{"start":21771.32,"end":21773.32,"text":"115年有一個"},{"start":21773.32,"end":21775.32,"text":"10億的獎勵金"},{"start":21775.32,"end":21777.32,"text":"要來"},{"start":21777.32,"end":21779.32,"text":"給這個地方他們"},{"start":21779.32,"end":21781.32,"text":"對於相關的食品的"},{"start":21781.32,"end":21783.32,"text":"稽查也好各項的食安"},{"start":21783.32,"end":21785.32,"text":"的推動計畫"},{"start":21785.32,"end":21787.32,"text":"表現機優我們會有"},{"start":21787.32,"end":21789.32,"text":"獎勵金的分配"},{"start":21789.32,"end":21791.32,"text":"所以其實包含"},{"start":21791.32,"end":21793.32,"text":"台中市政府也都在"},{"start":21793.32,"end":21795.32,"text":"我們獎勵的對象裡面"},{"start":21795.32,"end":21797.32,"text":"事實上也已經撥發了不少"},{"start":21797.32,"end":21799.32,"text":"那麼至於說"},{"start":21799.32,"end":21801.32,"text":"到目前為止我們"},{"start":21801.32,"end":21803.32,"text":"已經也撥了2億4千"},{"start":21803.32,"end":21805.32,"text":"多元了"},{"start":21805.32,"end":21807.32,"text":"也都撥下去了"},{"start":21807.32,"end":21809.32,"text":"那不過呢這個獎勵金"},{"start":21809.32,"end":21811.32,"text":"這個是額外的"},{"start":21811.32,"end":21813.32,"text":"等於是績效的獎勵"},{"start":21813.32,"end":21815.32,"text":"那麼跟地方政府應該"},{"start":21815.32,"end":21817.32,"text":"編列的相關的業務費"},{"start":21817.32,"end":21819.32,"text":"這是兩回事這個不應該"},{"start":21819.32,"end":21821.32,"text":"要把它混為一談就是該要"},{"start":21821.32,"end":21823.32,"text":"執行的還是要請地方"},{"start":21823.32,"end":21825.32,"text":"首長支持編足"},{"start":21825.32,"end":21827.32,"text":"這個預算包含人力"},{"start":21827.32,"end":21829.32,"text":"或者是相當稽查"},{"start":21829.32,"end":21831.32,"text":"所需要的預算還是要請"},{"start":21831.32,"end":21833.32,"text":"地方政府的首長"},{"start":21833.32,"end":21835.32,"text":"能夠支持在食安的部分"},{"start":21835.76,"end":21837.76,"text":"是所以應該是"},{"start":21837.76,"end":21839.76,"text":"獎勵那些執行"},{"start":21839.76,"end":21841.76,"text":"非常到位"},{"start":21841.76,"end":21843.76,"text":"而且是對民眾的食安有實質"},{"start":21843.76,"end":21845.76,"text":"幫忙的就會列入這個獎勵"},{"start":21845.76,"end":21847.76,"text":"那就很清楚"},{"start":21847.76,"end":21849.76,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":21849.76,"end":21851.76,"text":"那再過來就是有關於建置全國違反"},{"start":21851.76,"end":21853.76,"text":"食安查詢系統這一部分"},{"start":21853.76,"end":21855.76,"text":"真的需要再加把勁"},{"start":21855.76,"end":21857.76,"text":"最近的食安事件我們看到政府"},{"start":21857.76,"end":21859.76,"text":"非常努力地在"},{"start":21859.76,"end":21861.76,"text":"啟動應變然後下架"},{"start":21861.76,"end":21863.76,"text":"這些高風險的食品而且"},{"start":21863.76,"end":21865.76,"text":"給這些業者違規的業者"},{"start":21865.76,"end":21867.76,"text":"做很重的裁罰"},{"start":21867.76,"end":21869.76,"text":"可是要如何能夠重建民眾"},{"start":21869.76,"end":21871.76,"text":"對於這個食安的信任"},{"start":21871.76,"end":21873.76,"text":"我認為讓消費者"},{"start":21873.76,"end":21875.76,"text":"能夠很容易查閱到"},{"start":21875.76,"end":21877.76,"text":"業者過去的食安"},{"start":21877.76,"end":21879.76,"text":"紀錄跟他的商譽其實"},{"start":21879.76,"end":21881.76,"text":"讓這個資訊"},{"start":21881.76,"end":21883.76,"text":"的透明度能夠落實"},{"start":21883.76,"end":21885.76,"text":"應該是很關鍵的一步"},{"start":21885.76,"end":21887.76,"text":"那我們在這個事件裡面發現說"},{"start":21887.76,"end":21889.76,"text":"中央跟地方在公布食安"},{"start":21889.76,"end":21891.76,"text":"違法資訊的部分卻面臨"},{"start":21891.76,"end":21893.76,"text":"各自為政"},{"start":21893.76,"end":21895.76,"text":"一國多治的這些問題"},{"start":21895.76,"end":21897.76,"text":"我們可以從這個畫面上看到"},{"start":21897.76,"end":21899.76,"text":"以地方政府為例"},{"start":21899.76,"end":21901.76,"text":"22個縣市就有22種"},{"start":21901.76,"end":21903.76,"text":"公布的方式"},{"start":21903.76,"end":21905.76,"text":"有的是用食安地圖有的是用平台"},{"start":21905.76,"end":21907.76,"text":"也有一些單次"},{"start":21907.76,"end":21909.76,"text":"稽查的PDF的檔案"},{"start":21909.76,"end":21911.76,"text":"或者是用一個新聞府"},{"start":21911.76,"end":21913.76,"text":"市府的新聞稿"},{"start":21913.76,"end":21915.76,"text":"就讓民眾去"},{"start":21915.76,"end":21917.76,"text":"自己了解"},{"start":21917.76,"end":21919.76,"text":"一般民眾如果想要看一個"},{"start":21919.76,"end":21921.76,"text":"某一個產品的這些食安紀錄"},{"start":21921.76,"end":21923.76,"text":"真的是困難重重"},{"start":21923.76,"end":21925.76,"text":"看那個東西"},{"start":21925.76,"end":21927.76,"text":"另外當然食藥署自己有建立了一個"},{"start":21927.76,"end":21929.76,"text":"食品查核跟檢驗資訊的平台"},{"start":21929.76,"end":21931.76,"text":"可是這個"},{"start":21931.84,"end":21933.84,"text":"廣業的入口"},{"start":21933.84,"end":21935.84,"text":"還是有點隱密不太容易"},{"start":21935.84,"end":21937.84,"text":"讓民眾很容易就可以找得到"},{"start":21937.84,"end":21939.84,"text":"更核心的問題就是說這個"},{"start":21939.84,"end":21941.84,"text":"平台目前僅看在"},{"start":21941.84,"end":21943.84,"text":"食藥署本身的專案稽查的結果"},{"start":21943.84,"end":21945.84,"text":"完全沒有去"},{"start":21945.84,"end":21947.84,"text":"整合地方政府自己在"},{"start":21947.84,"end":21949.84,"text":"執行上的稽查資料"},{"start":21949.84,"end":21951.84,"text":"意思就是說地方政府他可能"},{"start":21951.84,"end":21953.84,"text":"會有一些稽查"},{"start":21953.84,"end":21955.84,"text":"的項目不是在中央"},{"start":21955.84,"end":21957.84,"text":"政府這邊處理到"},{"start":21957.84,"end":21959.84,"text":"他就會自己去公布"},{"start":21959.84,"end":21961.84,"text":"結果沒有彙整到"},{"start":21961.84,"end":21963.84,"text":"中央政府到食藥署這個"},{"start":21963.84,"end":21965.84,"text":"網頁來相對來講"},{"start":21965.84,"end":21967.84,"text":"這是很不合理的現象"},{"start":21967.84,"end":21969.84,"text":"因為相會者想要"},{"start":21970.29,"end":21972.29,"text":"比如說啦"},{"start":21972.29,"end":21974.29,"text":"苦茶油也是一個問題"},{"start":21974.29,"end":21976.29,"text":"苦茶油全各個地方"},{"start":21976.29,"end":21978.29,"text":"都有一些苦茶油在販售"},{"start":21978.29,"end":21980.29,"text":"那如果想要去看一下品牌"},{"start":21980.29,"end":21982.29,"text":"有沒有違規紀錄"},{"start":21983.21,"end":21985.21,"text":"可能就要上這個"},{"start":21985.21,"end":21987.21,"text":"每一個縣市22個地方的這個"},{"start":21987.21,"end":21989.21,"text":"政府網站再加上食藥署"},{"start":21989.21,"end":21991.21,"text":"的網站一共有23個網站"},{"start":21991.21,"end":21993.21,"text":"去慢慢比對"},{"start":21993.21,"end":21995.21,"text":"台灣是科技大國"},{"start":21995.21,"end":21997.21,"text":"這種情形實在是很難接受"},{"start":21997.21,"end":21999.21,"text":"所以這一方面"},{"start":21999.21,"end":22001.21,"text":"如果我們來參考勞動部的"},{"start":22001.21,"end":22003.21,"text":"經驗勞動部其實"},{"start":22003.21,"end":22005.21,"text":"他們有建置一個全國"},{"start":22005.21,"end":22007.21,"text":"的查詢平台叫做"},{"start":22007.21,"end":22009.21,"text":"違反勞動法令查詢"},{"start":22009.21,"end":22011.21,"text":"的系統這個很簡單"},{"start":22011.21,"end":22013.21,"text":"只要民眾在單一個網站上面"},{"start":22013.21,"end":22015.21,"text":"按一個鍵"},{"start":22015.21,"end":22017.21,"text":"就能夠去看到全國"},{"start":22017.21,"end":22019.21,"text":"所有的違規的紀錄"},{"start":22019.21,"end":22021.21,"text":"而且這個資料沒有連線"},{"start":22021.21,"end":22023.21,"text":"也不會下架"},{"start":22023.21,"end":22025.21,"text":"所以這樣真的是能夠保障民眾的"},{"start":22025.21,"end":22027.21,"text":"知情權"},{"start":22027.21,"end":22029.21,"text":"所以部長有沒有可能"},{"start":22029.21,"end":22031.21,"text":"我們在一個月裡面"},{"start":22031.21,"end":22033.21,"text":"麻煩衛福能夠全面的盤點"},{"start":22033.21,"end":22035.21,"text":"各級政府目前公布"},{"start":22035.21,"end":22037.21,"text":"食安違規資訊的方式"},{"start":22037.21,"end":22039.21,"text":"然後參考這個勞動部的"},{"start":22039.21,"end":22041.21,"text":"建置經驗先把這個資訊"},{"start":22041.21,"end":22043.21,"text":"先整合好"},{"start":22043.21,"end":22045.21,"text":"那上個月裡面針對建置單一"},{"start":22045.21,"end":22047.21,"text":"入口的全國違反食安"},{"start":22047.21,"end":22049.21,"text":"查詢系統"},{"start":22049.21,"end":22051.21,"text":"邀請各地方政府來開會延商"},{"start":22051.21,"end":22053.21,"text":"提供改善食藥署"},{"start":22053.21,"end":22055.21,"text":"查詢平台的這個具體的期程"},{"start":22055.21,"end":22057.21,"text":"把它規劃出來"},{"start":22057.21,"end":22059.21,"text":"部長 好 我想這個委員"},{"start":22059.21,"end":22061.21,"text":"這個方向"},{"start":22061.21,"end":22063.21,"text":"我們覺得很好啦因為"},{"start":22063.21,"end":22065.21,"text":"這個食品經常它會有"},{"start":22065.21,"end":22067.21,"text":"這個全國的流通性"},{"start":22067.21,"end":22069.21,"text":"所以雖然是在這一個縣市"},{"start":22069.21,"end":22071.21,"text":"去查核"},{"start":22071.21,"end":22073.21,"text":"但是它的食品可能是流通到其他的縣市"},{"start":22073.21,"end":22075.21,"text":"所以我們三個月內"},{"start":22075.21,"end":22077.21,"text":"我們找這個地方政府"},{"start":22077.21,"end":22079.21,"text":"大家來開會按照委員的方式"},{"start":22079.21,"end":22081.21,"text":"一個是它的公布方式"},{"start":22081.21,"end":22083.21,"text":"大家盡量讓它一致性"},{"start":22083.21,"end":22085.21,"text":"那第二個我們來看看能不能"},{"start":22085.21,"end":22087.21,"text":"以這個廠商做基礎的"},{"start":22087.21,"end":22089.21,"text":"來把它"},{"start":22089.21,"end":22091.21,"text":"彙整成一個單一的"},{"start":22091.21,"end":22093.21,"text":"一個違規"},{"start":22093.21,"end":22095.21,"text":"查詢的系統"},{"start":22095.21,"end":22097.21,"text":"所以我們可能不一定可以馬上"},{"start":22097.21,"end":22099.21,"text":"三個月內做完但是規劃"},{"start":22099.21,"end":22101.21,"text":"具體的期程規劃我們把它"},{"start":22101.21,"end":22103.21,"text":"做出來再請委員來指教"},{"start":22103.21,"end":22105.21,"text":"對 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你有逼我們吃"},{"start":23099.86,"end":23100.86,"text":"因為我們已經沒有健康油"},{"start":23100.86,"end":23101.86,"text":"可以吃了"},{"start":23101.86,"end":23102.86,"text":"油是我們人體的必要營養素"},{"start":23102.86,"end":23103.86,"text":"油是我們提供"},{"start":23103.86,"end":23105.86,"text":"必須胺基酸的重要來源"},{"start":23105.86,"end":23106.86,"text":"必須胺基酸表示什麼"},{"start":23106.86,"end":23107.86,"text":"我們身體沒辦法合成"},{"start":23107.86,"end":23108.86,"text":"我們需要有"},{"start":23108.86,"end":23109.86,"text":"第三 所有的油溶性"},{"start":23109.86,"end":23110.86,"text":"維他命A D E K"},{"start":23110.86,"end":23112.86,"text":"都是靠油才能幫助我們吸收"},{"start":23112.86,"end":23113.86,"text":"所以油是必要的"},{"start":23113.86,"end":23114.86,"text":"你有沒有逼我們吃"},{"start":23114.86,"end":23116.86,"text":"有 我們到處都吃了"},{"start":23116.86,"end":23117.86,"text":"柏定瑜那句話"},{"start":23117.86,"end":23118.86,"text":"拜託你不要再說了"},{"start":23118.86,"end":23119.86,"text":"有問題的"},{"start":23119.86,"end":23120.86,"text":"我從來不講說這句話"},{"start":23120.86,"end":23122.86,"text":"我講的都是"},{"start":23122.86,"end":23124.86,"text":"確保這個油品的安全"},{"start":23124.86,"end":23126.86,"text":"實用的安全是我們的責任"},{"start":23126.86,"end":23128.86,"text":"所以這個我們一定會"},{"start":23128.86,"end":23129.86,"text":"務實的去做到"},{"start":23129.86,"end":23130.86,"text":"好啦 部長謝謝你"},{"start":23130.86,"end":23131.86,"text":"我盡量也盡量用科學"},{"start":23131.86,"end":23133.86,"text":"用我的專業跟你溝通"},{"start":23133.86,"end":23134.86,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":23134.86,"end":23135.86,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":23138.81,"end":23140.81,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭助委員"},{"start":23140.81,"end":23142.81,"text":"接著請林黛樺委員"},{"start":23154.72,"end":23155.72,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":23156.38,"end":23157.38,"text":"好 請師部長"},{"start":23161.22,"end":23162.22,"text":"李委員好"},{"start":23162.22,"end":23164.22,"text":"好 本席由以"},{"start":23164.22,"end":23166.22,"text":"修正動議的提案"},{"start":23166.22,"end":23168.22,"text":"希望在這個食安法當中"},{"start":23168.22,"end":23171.22,"text":"導入這個GS1 Summarize 2027"},{"start":23171.22,"end":23173.22,"text":"來健全台灣食品安全"},{"start":23173.22,"end":23176.22,"text":"稽查的數位透徑"},{"start":23176.22,"end":23178.22,"text":"那這個現在我們稽查"},{"start":23178.22,"end":23179.22,"text":"有三大瓶頸"},{"start":23179.22,"end":23181.22,"text":"第一個 紙本跟數據的斷層"},{"start":23181.22,"end":23182.22,"text":"第二個是"},{"start":23182.22,"end":23184.22,"text":"因為條碼的資訊限制"},{"start":23184.22,"end":23185.22,"text":"第三個是"},{"start":23185.22,"end":23187.22,"text":"擴大儲置的成本的高昂"},{"start":23187.22,"end":23190.22,"text":"紙本跟數據的斷層"},{"start":23190.22,"end":23191.22,"text":"這邊呢"},{"start":23191.22,"end":23192.22,"text":"現場是仰賴業者的"},{"start":23192.22,"end":23194.22,"text":"紙本的漲策人工對仗"},{"start":23194.22,"end":23196.22,"text":"遇到隱匿或生爆不死的時候"},{"start":23196.22,"end":23200.22,"text":"調閱與跨場比對極度耗時"},{"start":23200.22,"end":23203.22,"text":"我們的意味條碼的資訊的辨識"},{"start":23203.22,"end":23204.22,"text":"它只能針對品類"},{"start":23204.22,"end":23207.22,"text":"無法記載特定的批號"},{"start":23207.22,"end":23209.22,"text":"跟有效日期"},{"start":23209.22,"end":23210.22,"text":"那再來就是我們"},{"start":23210.22,"end":23212.22,"text":"擴大儲置成本的高昂"},{"start":23212.22,"end":23215.22,"text":"無法精準定位污染的批號"},{"start":23215.22,"end":23217.22,"text":"所以造成了合規的廠商"},{"start":23217.22,"end":23220.22,"text":"嚴重的損失與消費恐慌"},{"start":23220.22,"end":23223.22,"text":"部長您覺得現在行政院"},{"start":23223.22,"end":23224.22,"text":"跟各立委的提案"},{"start":23224.22,"end":23226.22,"text":"可以解決這個現場"},{"start":23226.22,"end":23228.22,"text":"稽查的三大瓶頸嗎"},{"start":23228.22,"end":23231.22,"text":"確實委員提到的這個是"},{"start":23231.22,"end":23233.22,"text":"現在確實這樣"},{"start":23233.22,"end":23234.22,"text":"像譬如說第一個"},{"start":23234.22,"end":23236.22,"text":"雖然我們現在在推動"},{"start":23236.22,"end":23240.22,"text":"用這個電子發票直接去勾稽"},{"start":23240.22,"end":23242.22,"text":"那但是也還沒有辦法"},{"start":23242.22,"end":23244.22,"text":"完全都數位化"},{"start":23244.22,"end":23245.22,"text":"我們現在還是雙軌並行"},{"start":23245.22,"end":23248.22,"text":"所以還是有紙本申報的情形"},{"start":23248.22,"end":23252.22,"text":"那這個就可能造成資料的不正確"},{"start":23252.22,"end":23255.22,"text":"或者是延誤會比較慢"},{"start":23255.22,"end":23256.22,"text":"如果能夠做成"},{"start":23256.22,"end":23257.22,"text":"所以這三大瓶頸"},{"start":23257.22,"end":23259.22,"text":"是目前即使修法通過"},{"start":23259.22,"end":23261.22,"text":"也沒有辦法解決的嗎"},{"start":23261.22,"end":23263.22,"text":"好來那本來就具體建議"},{"start":23263.22,"end":23266.22,"text":"我先介紹GS1 Summarize 2027的概念"},{"start":23266.22,"end":23269.22,"text":"介紹其實我倡議這個制度"},{"start":23269.22,"end":23272.22,"text":"已經這個是我歷經第三個委員會"},{"start":23272.22,"end":23273.22,"text":"我從經濟委員會"},{"start":23273.22,"end":23275.22,"text":"到財政委員會的倡議"},{"start":23275.22,"end":23277.22,"text":"包括到現在的會還委員會"},{"start":23277.22,"end":23279.22,"text":"什麼叫做Summarize 2027呢"},{"start":23279.22,"end":23281.22,"text":"它其實是一個二維QR code"},{"start":23281.22,"end":23283.22,"text":"那它的特色就兩點"},{"start":23283.22,"end":23285.22,"text":"一個是線上溯源"},{"start":23285.22,"end":23290.22,"text":"第二個它從原料生產加工運輸配送"},{"start":23290.22,"end":23293.22,"text":"到回收完整都物聯網化了"},{"start":23293.22,"end":23295.22,"text":"所以它能夠在核心的目標"},{"start":23295.22,"end":23298.22,"text":"跟變革上全面的升級2D條碼"},{"start":23298.22,"end":23300.22,"text":"所以它能夠讓這個在收銀端"},{"start":23300.22,"end":23302.22,"text":"最消費者端讀取的能力"},{"start":23302.22,"end":23304.22,"text":"它也攜帶更多的數據"},{"start":23304.22,"end":23306.22,"text":"而不是純粹是有品項而已"},{"start":23306.22,"end":23309.22,"text":"它能夠包括你儲存的批號"},{"start":23309.22,"end":23311.22,"text":"有效日期及序號"},{"start":23311.22,"end":23315.22,"text":"比如說我們這次的大黃豆的進口"},{"start":23315.22,"end":23317.22,"text":"到底出問題的是哪一批呢"},{"start":23317.22,"end":23319.22,"text":"我們都如果導入了"},{"start":23319.22,"end":23321.22,"text":"這樣的二維條碼的情況之下"},{"start":23321.22,"end":23322.22,"text":"是查得出來的"},{"start":23322.22,"end":23324.22,"text":"所以我也提升消費的體驗"},{"start":23324.22,"end":23326.22,"text":"那對企業跟工業的影響是"},{"start":23327.22,"end":23330.22,"text":"我如果導入了這個SUNRISE2027的話"},{"start":23330.22,"end":23333.22,"text":"那這個供應鏈的精準管理"},{"start":23333.22,"end":23335.22,"text":"我會更精準的追蹤產品的有效期"},{"start":23335.22,"end":23336.22,"text":"減少食物的浪費"},{"start":23336.22,"end":23338.22,"text":"跟過期下架的損失"},{"start":23338.22,"end":23340.22,"text":"對防偽跟安全的追溯"},{"start":23340.22,"end":23343.22,"text":"可以透過序號的追蹤產品的來源"},{"start":23343.22,"end":23344.22,"text":"防止假貨"},{"start":23344.22,"end":23345.22,"text":"並確保食品安全"},{"start":23345.22,"end":23349.22,"text":"第三個這個系統跟軟硬體的改造"},{"start":23349.22,"end":23352.22,"text":"這也就是所有的我們的產業提升"},{"start":23352.22,"end":23355.22,"text":"零售章跟品牌商必須更新硬體"},{"start":23355.22,"end":23358.22,"text":"這個掃描機以及這個軟體POST的系統"},{"start":23358.22,"end":23362.22,"text":"否則面臨無法刷出商品跟鍛鍊"},{"start":23362.22,"end":23363.22,"text":"還要提的一點"},{"start":23363.22,"end":23367.22,"text":"就是我們現在的QR code是貼上去的"},{"start":23367.22,"end":23369.22,"text":"未來沒有貼這件事情"},{"start":23369.22,"end":23373.22,"text":"直接烙印每一個批號你的過程"},{"start":23373.22,"end":23374.22,"text":"每一個過程"},{"start":23374.22,"end":23376.22,"text":"甚至在烘培的過程它是幾度"},{"start":23376.22,"end":23378.22,"text":"它的氣壓是多少"},{"start":23378.22,"end":23381.22,"text":"全部都可以在這個二維條碼登載的"},{"start":23381.22,"end":23383.22,"text":"而且通通都是物聯網的"},{"start":23383.22,"end":23386.22,"text":"所以真的如果發生事情的時候"},{"start":23386.22,"end":23388.22,"text":"我都可以只要一鍵按下"},{"start":23388.22,"end":23390.22,"text":"你都可以查掉剛才的機查的"},{"start":23390.22,"end":23393.22,"text":"所有的困境完全解決"},{"start":23393.22,"end":23396.22,"text":"好那這個食品安全機查的流程的轉型"},{"start":23396.22,"end":23399.22,"text":"我分作現在傳統的食安機查的模式"},{"start":23399.22,"end":23402.22,"text":"跟我導入Sumnerize 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},{"start":23644.02,"end":23649.02,"text":"由蘆坪廠來做學習新信託"},{"start":23649.02,"end":23650.02,"text":"負荷量也許會上升"},{"start":23650.02,"end":23652.02,"text":"但是我這個稽查能力"},{"start":23652.02,"end":23655.02,"text":"當大家初期跟過度稽轉型之後的後續"},{"start":23655.02,"end":23659.02,"text":"我稽查的時間縮短50%以上"},{"start":23659.02,"end":23664.02,"text":"避免自動帶入系統免重複登達"},{"start":23664.02,"end":23666.02,"text":"我整體的稽查能力"},{"start":23666.02,"end":23668.02,"text":"可以大大下降40%到60%"},{"start":23668.02,"end":23670.02,"text":"好 如果是這樣之後"},{"start":23670.02,"end":23672.02,"text":"我後端的稽查的"},{"start":23672.02,"end":23674.02,"text":"勤政官員的稽查配套是什麼"},{"start":23674.02,"end":23679.02,"text":"在我已經完成原料生產加工運輸配送"},{"start":23679.02,"end":23682.02,"text":"包括回收喔 部長"},{"start":23682.02,"end":23685.02,"text":"我們是包括回收都可以在這裡面的喔"},{"start":23685.02,"end":23688.02,"text":"你從黃豆進口來之後"},{"start":23688.02,"end":23692.02,"text":"經過中年的這個產品銷售"},{"start":23692.02,"end":23695.02,"text":"包括運輸到我消費者"},{"start":23695.02,"end":23698.02,"text":"以及這個相關的回收鏈"},{"start":23698.02,"end":23701.02,"text":"我都可以在這個Summit 27"},{"start":23701.02,"end":23705.02,"text":"因為它有大概好幾千項的"},{"start":23705.02,"end":23708.02,"text":"這個列管的項目讓你去填"},{"start":23708.02,"end":23711.02,"text":"所以我光是我的行政稽查的配套"},{"start":23711.02,"end":23714.02,"text":"我政府當中我是設備將近"},{"start":23714.02,"end":23717.02,"text":"我無需要高行的這個設備"},{"start":23717.02,"end":23719.02,"text":"那我也可以自動化的勾稽"},{"start":23719.02,"end":23722.02,"text":"正是很清楚的責任回歸業者"},{"start":23722.02,"end":23723.02,"text":"分期的公告機制"},{"start":23723.02,"end":23727.02,"text":"而且稽查員只要執行數據認證就好了"},{"start":23727.02,"end":23730.02,"text":"數據驗證不要再幫業者比對資本了"},{"start":23730.02,"end":23732.02,"text":"最後我這邊的秀"},{"start":23732.02,"end":23734.02,"text":"叫部長您直接等一下的表態"},{"start":23734.02,"end":23737.02,"text":"面對日益複雜的食品的供應鏈"},{"start":23737.02,"end":23739.02,"text":"維持傳統的資本跟人工"},{"start":23739.02,"end":23741.02,"text":"稽查的模式引來以為繼"},{"start":23741.02,"end":23743.02,"text":"在本法食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":23743.02,"end":23745.02,"text":"導入GS1的Summit 27"},{"start":23745.02,"end":23747.02,"text":"是持安管理"},{"start":23747.02,"end":23749.02,"text":"由事後的補救轉型為"},{"start":23749.02,"end":23752.02,"text":"轉型為即時的預防的核心"},{"start":23752.02,"end":23754.02,"text":"轉軸保護消費者"},{"start":23754.02,"end":23755.02,"text":"降低企業風險"},{"start":23755.02,"end":23758.02,"text":"紓解這個檢驗檢查壓力"},{"start":23758.02,"end":23760.02,"text":"那部長您對本席這樣的修法提案"},{"start":23760.02,"end":23762.02,"text":"您的建議是什麼"},{"start":23762.02,"end":23763.02,"text":"您的看法是什麼"},{"start":23763.02,"end":23764.02,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":23764.02,"end":23766.02,"text":"我對您的這個提案非常欣賞"},{"start":23766.02,"end":23768.02,"text":"所以我們會來研議"},{"start":23768.02,"end":23769.02,"text":"剛開始的時候"},{"start":23769.02,"end":23771.02,"text":"他可能投入需要"},{"start":23771.02,"end":23772.02,"text":"欣賞下面都在笑"},{"start":23772.02,"end":23774.02,"text":"需要投入"},{"start":23774.02,"end":23779.02,"text":"初期我們需要投入一些成本跟時間"},{"start":23779.02,"end":23781.02,"text":"不過長期來講"},{"start":23781.02,"end":23785.02,"text":"面對我們現在缺工的時代"},{"start":23785.02,"end":23787.02,"text":"我想我們又要管理的"},{"start":23787.02,"end":23790.02,"text":"越來越detail越來越複雜"},{"start":23790.02,"end":23791.02,"text":"導入這個系統"},{"start":23791.02,"end":23792.02,"text":"我想絕對是有幫忙"},{"start":23792.02,"end":23795.02,"text":"包括他重點他是溯源"},{"start":23795.02,"end":23798.02,"text":"他其實是線上從理生原料開始"},{"start":23798.02,"end":23800.02,"text":"我的批號"},{"start":23800.02,"end":23802.02,"text":"包括進到生產"},{"start":23802.02,"end":23804.02,"text":"你任何的狀態"},{"start":23804.02,"end":23807.02,"text":"空氣壓力水"},{"start":23807.02,"end":23808.02,"text":"什麼通通都可以"},{"start":23808.02,"end":23809.02,"text":"包括溫度"},{"start":23809.02,"end":23812.02,"text":"包括你即使到最後端的運輸物流"},{"start":23812.02,"end":23815.02,"text":"你在什麼的溫度下變質了"},{"start":23815.02,"end":23818.02,"text":"那其實都可以追溯出來的"},{"start":23818.02,"end":23819.02,"text":"包括你這個產品"},{"start":23819.02,"end":23820.02,"text":"最後是怎麼回收"},{"start":23820.02,"end":23821.02,"text":"全部都"},{"start":23821.02,"end":23825.02,"text":"而且你的標籤是不能貼的"},{"start":23825.02,"end":23827.02,"text":"是直接在你的最後"},{"start":23827.02,"end":23828.02,"text":"整個產品出來的時候"},{"start":23828.02,"end":23830.02,"text":"直接烙印上去的"},{"start":23830.02,"end":23832.02,"text":"所以這個現在大家"},{"start":23832.02,"end":23834.02,"text":"我說我今天講這個都不是政治議題"},{"start":23834.02,"end":23835.02,"text":"誰對誰錯"},{"start":23835.02,"end":23836.02,"text":"中央錯"},{"start":23836.02,"end":23837.02,"text":"地方錯我都不管"},{"start":23837.02,"end":23839.02,"text":"重點是你們現在修法"},{"start":23839.02,"end":23841.02,"text":"根本都不能解決問題"},{"start":23841.02,"end":23842.02,"text":"不能解決"},{"start":23842.02,"end":23843.02,"text":"你還是不能解決"},{"start":23843.02,"end":23844.02,"text":"所以只有"},{"start":23844.02,"end":23846.02,"text":"要請部長您這個好好研究一下"},{"start":23846.02,"end":23848.02,"text":"因為等一下主席他下一次什麼時候"},{"start":23848.02,"end":23851.02,"text":"排案的條文審查之前"},{"start":23851.02,"end":23852.02,"text":"我希望你把三關的研究"},{"start":23852.02,"end":23853.02,"text":"我們來研究"},{"start":23853.02,"end":23854.02,"text":"研究好"},{"start":23854.02,"end":23855.02,"text":"然後我們來"},{"start":23855.02,"end":23857.02,"text":"這個涉及到整個產業的轉型"},{"start":23857.02,"end":23858.02,"text":"太棒你講到"},{"start":23858.02,"end":23859.02,"text":"講到這就是產業轉型"},{"start":23859.02,"end":23861.02,"text":"所以其實我們的業者"},{"start":23861.02,"end":23863.02,"text":"要做這樣產業鏈跟人員的訓練"},{"start":23863.02,"end":23864.02,"text":"它是需要成本"},{"start":23864.02,"end":23865.02,"text":"政府要支持他"},{"start":23865.02,"end":23867.02,"text":"要編預算支持他"},{"start":23867.02,"end":23869.02,"text":"我們的這個訓練能力要支持他"},{"start":23869.02,"end":23870.02,"text":"好不好"},{"start":23870.02,"end":23871.02,"text":"部長謝謝"},{"start":23871.02,"end":23872.02,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":23872.02,"end":23873.02,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":23873.02,"end":23874.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":23874.02,"end":23875.02,"text":"好謝謝林大和委員"},{"start":23876.13,"end":23878.13,"text":"接著請沈伯揚委員"},{"start":23889.45,"end":23890.45,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":23890.45,"end":23892.45,"text":"有請部長跟署長"},{"start":23892.45,"end":23893.45,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":23893.45,"end":23894.45,"text":"請部長跟江署長"},{"start":23896.11,"end":23897.11,"text":"政委員好"},{"start":23897.11,"end":23899.11,"text":"那這個因為"},{"start":23899.11,"end":23902.11,"text":"我看到今天這個質詢也比較多"},{"start":23902.11,"end":23903.11,"text":"那這個未完的時間"},{"start":23903.11,"end":23905.11,"text":"通常也會稍微拉長一點"},{"start":23905.11,"end":23906.11,"text":"所以我簡要問"},{"start":23906.11,"end":23909.11,"text":"就是說我們接下來這一個修法"},{"start":23909.11,"end":23910.11,"text":"有幾個方向"},{"start":23910.11,"end":23912.11,"text":"那第一個方向就是說"},{"start":23912.11,"end":23915.11,"text":"因為今天不管今天業者"},{"start":23915.11,"end":23916.11,"text":"出了什麼問題"},{"start":23916.11,"end":23917.11,"text":"今天業者他一定是"},{"start":23917.11,"end":23919.11,"text":"驗了之後他發現有問題"},{"start":23919.11,"end":23920.11,"text":"那我就看到"},{"start":23920.11,"end":23922.11,"text":"就這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":23922.11,"end":23923.11,"text":"他就把一些責任"},{"start":23923.11,"end":23926.11,"text":"從業者移到檢驗的單位"},{"start":23926.11,"end":23929.11,"text":"那我那時候跟其他委員討論的時候"},{"start":23929.11,"end":23930.11,"text":"我們就認為說"},{"start":23930.11,"end":23931.11,"text":"好那這個檢驗的單位"},{"start":23931.11,"end":23933.11,"text":"因為業者可能會有隱瞞的問題"},{"start":23933.11,"end":23934.11,"text":"當然他隱瞞問題"},{"start":23934.11,"end":23935.11,"text":"他會有隱瞞的責任"},{"start":23935.11,"end":23937.11,"text":"他會有其他的責任"},{"start":23937.11,"end":23939.11,"text":"那如果檢驗的單位"},{"start":23939.11,"end":23940.11,"text":"他能夠去分擔"},{"start":23940.11,"end":23942.11,"text":"他變成說他也往上報"},{"start":23942.11,"end":23943.11,"text":"那這樣的話"},{"start":23943.11,"end":23945.11,"text":"或許我們就可以及時的掌握到"},{"start":23945.11,"end":23946.11,"text":"第一手的資料"},{"start":23946.11,"end":23948.11,"text":"好那但是我們那時候在討論的時候"},{"start":23948.11,"end":23950.11,"text":"就是說因為檢驗的單位"},{"start":23950.11,"end":23951.11,"text":"要回報這件事情"},{"start":23951.11,"end":23953.11,"text":"到底要設門檻還是不要"},{"start":23953.11,"end":23954.11,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":23954.11,"end":23955.11,"text":"比如說他是有疑慮的"},{"start":23955.11,"end":23956.11,"text":"或他超標了"},{"start":23956.11,"end":23957.11,"text":"所以他就要回報"},{"start":23957.11,"end":23959.11,"text":"還是說不管結果為何"},{"start":23959.11,"end":23960.11,"text":"他都要回報"},{"start":23960.11,"end":23961.11,"text":"那在這邊我看到"},{"start":23961.11,"end":23963.11,"text":"院板的設計看起來"},{"start":23963.11,"end":23966.11,"text":"就是無論如何他都要回報"},{"start":23966.8,"end":23968.8,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":23968.8,"end":23970.8,"text":"我們是用一個授權的"},{"start":23970.8,"end":23973.8,"text":"授權辦法會來逐步推動"},{"start":23973.8,"end":23976.8,"text":"第一個從業別的選擇"},{"start":23976.8,"end":23978.8,"text":"哪一些是比較高風險的"},{"start":23978.8,"end":23980.8,"text":"或者是影響性比較大的"},{"start":23980.8,"end":23982.8,"text":"業別開始"},{"start":23982.8,"end":23983.8,"text":"然後第二個"},{"start":23984.69,"end":23986.69,"text":"檢驗的話會先從第一步"},{"start":23986.69,"end":23988.69,"text":"從有異常時通報開始"},{"start":23988.69,"end":23990.69,"text":"然後到逐步的進入到"},{"start":23990.69,"end":23993.69,"text":"全面的系統化之後就接接了"},{"start":23993.69,"end":23995.69,"text":"API接接整個接接起來"},{"start":23995.69,"end":23997.69,"text":"所以他就不需要再另外通報"},{"start":23997.69,"end":23998.69,"text":"等於就等於"},{"start":23998.69,"end":24000.69,"text":"檢驗結果上傳的概念"},{"start":24000.69,"end":24001.69,"text":"所以我們是"},{"start":24001.69,"end":24002.69,"text":"逐步逐步這樣"},{"start":24002.69,"end":24004.69,"text":"好那所以就是說"},{"start":24004.69,"end":24006.69,"text":"如果能夠直接有API接接"},{"start":24006.69,"end":24007.69,"text":"那方便嘛"},{"start":24007.69,"end":24008.69,"text":"因為這已經就不會說什麼"},{"start":24008.69,"end":24009.69,"text":"你要跟不要"},{"start":24009.69,"end":24011.69,"text":"他沒有決定的空間"},{"start":24011.69,"end":24013.69,"text":"他只要直接回報"},{"start":24013.69,"end":24015.69,"text":"那這樣的話當然會比較好"},{"start":24015.69,"end":24017.69,"text":"那前面剛剛不早提到就是說"},{"start":24017.69,"end":24018.69,"text":"逐步推行的時候"},{"start":24018.69,"end":24020.69,"text":"你可能還是會分門別類"},{"start":24020.69,"end":24022.69,"text":"可能會有風險高低"},{"start":24022.69,"end":24024.69,"text":"那當然我會比較擔心的事情就是說"},{"start":24024.69,"end":24026.69,"text":"如果我們今天把風險高低"},{"start":24026.69,"end":24027.69,"text":"這件事情"},{"start":24027.69,"end":24030.69,"text":"又把它當作是一個判斷標準"},{"start":24030.69,"end":24031.69,"text":"那會不會又"},{"start":24031.69,"end":24033.69,"text":"到底哪些是風險高哪些風險低"},{"start":24033.69,"end":24035.69,"text":"會不會又大家莫衷一事"},{"start":24035.69,"end":24037.69,"text":"因為這種時候就是最容易有"},{"start":24037.69,"end":24038.69,"text":"又變成政治口水"},{"start":24038.69,"end":24039.69,"text":"那我覺得因為"},{"start":24039.69,"end":24040.69,"text":"其實食品安全是科學"},{"start":24040.69,"end":24042.69,"text":"那關於剛剛講的這一個風險高低"},{"start":24042.69,"end":24043.69,"text":"那這個的判斷"},{"start":24043.69,"end":24044.69,"text":"有沒有一個一致的標準"},{"start":24044.69,"end":24045.69,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":24045.69,"end":24048.69,"text":"我們現在目前其實就已經理出"},{"start":24048.69,"end":24049.69,"text":"26個類別"},{"start":24049.69,"end":24052.69,"text":"他就是屬於非登跟非追不可"},{"start":24052.69,"end":24053.69,"text":"就是我們從過去的"},{"start":24053.69,"end":24055.69,"text":"食安查核的結果"},{"start":24055.69,"end":24057.69,"text":"或者是一些重大的食安事件"},{"start":24057.69,"end":24059.69,"text":"或者是國際上曾經發生的"},{"start":24059.69,"end":24061.69,"text":"食安事件所累積出來"},{"start":24061.69,"end":24064.69,"text":"那麼判斷出來的26個類別"},{"start":24064.69,"end":24066.69,"text":"那我們在這個26個類別上面"},{"start":24066.69,"end":24068.69,"text":"再去挑出哪一個是第一階段"},{"start":24068.69,"end":24069.69,"text":"要進來"},{"start":24069.69,"end":24070.69,"text":"逐步逐步這樣"},{"start":24070.69,"end":24072.69,"text":"好 那這個應該就是"},{"start":24072.69,"end":24074.69,"text":"到最後也要有社會共識"},{"start":24074.69,"end":24075.69,"text":"這個沒問題"},{"start":24075.69,"end":24076.69,"text":"那現在就是說"},{"start":24076.69,"end":24077.69,"text":"這個是第一層"},{"start":24077.69,"end":24079.69,"text":"就是說我們把業者隱瞞這件事情"},{"start":24079.69,"end":24081.69,"text":"因為我們畢竟就是要預防"},{"start":24081.69,"end":24083.69,"text":"我們不希望說事情發生了"},{"start":24083.69,"end":24084.69,"text":"然後到最後再追究"},{"start":24084.69,"end":24086.69,"text":"因為事情發生最後責任是一定要"},{"start":24086.69,"end":24087.69,"text":"但事情發生最後責任"},{"start":24087.69,"end":24088.69,"text":"畢竟它發生了"},{"start":24088.69,"end":24090.69,"text":"那我們是希望它不要發生"},{"start":24090.69,"end":24091.69,"text":"所以不要發生這件事情"},{"start":24091.69,"end":24092.69,"text":"我們把一部分的"},{"start":24092.69,"end":24094.69,"text":"剛剛講的結果上傳這件事情"},{"start":24094.69,"end":24097.69,"text":"把它移到檢查的這一個單位"},{"start":24097.69,"end":24098.69,"text":"這是一個"},{"start":24098.69,"end":24100.69,"text":"那再來就是再往上"},{"start":24100.69,"end":24102.69,"text":"檢查的單位它知道有問題了"},{"start":24102.69,"end":24104.69,"text":"然後它的結果它會自動上傳"},{"start":24104.69,"end":24105.69,"text":"業者知道有問題了"},{"start":24105.69,"end":24107.69,"text":"那業者他必須要"},{"start":24107.69,"end":24108.69,"text":"能夠有回報的義務"},{"start":24108.69,"end":24109.69,"text":"這是一個"},{"start":24109.69,"end":24111.69,"text":"那業者再往上"},{"start":24111.69,"end":24112.69,"text":"就是我們的地方政府"},{"start":24112.69,"end":24114.69,"text":"那現在就是說"},{"start":24114.69,"end":24115.69,"text":"針對地方政府他要檢驗"},{"start":24115.69,"end":24117.69,"text":"因為他要回報給地方政府"},{"start":24117.69,"end":24119.69,"text":"那地方政府這一個"},{"start":24119.69,"end":24121.69,"text":"如果我們從預防的角度來看"},{"start":24121.69,"end":24124.69,"text":"那就是他有沒有定期去做檢驗"},{"start":24124.69,"end":24126.69,"text":"那因為本來的舊法"},{"start":24126.69,"end":24128.69,"text":"就是他得去做這件事情"},{"start":24128.69,"end":24130.69,"text":"那我看到現在修正的方向"},{"start":24130.69,"end":24133.69,"text":"是說好那我們把得改成因對不對"},{"start":24133.69,"end":24134.69,"text":"但是把得改成因"},{"start":24134.69,"end":24135.69,"text":"在法律上很有意義"},{"start":24135.69,"end":24136.69,"text":"他就一定要做"},{"start":24136.69,"end":24138.69,"text":"但是他如果不做呢"},{"start":24139.77,"end":24141.77,"text":"因為如果他不做的話"},{"start":24141.77,"end":24143.77,"text":"我們很少會直接給予這個"},{"start":24143.77,"end":24144.77,"text":"因為有些中央跟地方分層"},{"start":24144.77,"end":24145.77,"text":"你不會說那地方政府不做"},{"start":24145.77,"end":24146.77,"text":"所以我們要怎樣"},{"start":24146.77,"end":24147.77,"text":"這個很難"},{"start":24147.77,"end":24148.77,"text":"所以就變成說"},{"start":24148.77,"end":24151.77,"text":"我認同就是說我們把得變成因"},{"start":24151.77,"end":24153.77,"text":"這個是法律上一個重要的宣示"},{"start":24153.77,"end":24155.77,"text":"但是在實際執行層面上面"},{"start":24155.77,"end":24157.77,"text":"如果他就是還是不做"},{"start":24157.77,"end":24158.77,"text":"那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":24160.05,"end":24162.05,"text":"當然這個行政機關"},{"start":24162.05,"end":24165.05,"text":"自然有立法機關的監督"},{"start":24165.05,"end":24167.05,"text":"我們在法裡面很少"},{"start":24167.05,"end":24170.05,"text":"我們是明定要去罰這個行政部"},{"start":24170.05,"end":24173.05,"text":"這個要罰的方式大概是不可能"},{"start":24173.05,"end":24174.05,"text":"這是不可能"},{"start":24174.05,"end":24175.05,"text":"沒有辦法直接去"},{"start":24175.05,"end":24177.05,"text":"跟地方政府說這個要處罰"},{"start":24177.05,"end":24178.05,"text":"那可能就回到"},{"start":24178.05,"end":24179.05,"text":"比如說好監察機關"},{"start":24179.05,"end":24181.05,"text":"但我們現在監察機關"},{"start":24181.05,"end":24183.05,"text":"現在看起來有點不太能運作"},{"start":24183.05,"end":24184.05,"text":"這會是一個問題"},{"start":24184.05,"end":24186.05,"text":"那如果說要等到政治的責任"},{"start":24186.05,"end":24187.05,"text":"那又要等"},{"start":24187.05,"end":24189.05,"text":"這這個責任是幾年的問題"},{"start":24189.05,"end":24191.05,"text":"所以我覺得這一個在設計上面"},{"start":24191.05,"end":24193.05,"text":"就是我們當然可以跟大家講說"},{"start":24193.05,"end":24195.05,"text":"我們把得改成因"},{"start":24195.05,"end":24196.05,"text":"這件事情是重要的"},{"start":24196.05,"end":24199.05,"text":"但我覺得可能到最後也要明白的"},{"start":24199.05,"end":24201.05,"text":"知道說這件事情在實行上面"},{"start":24201.05,"end":24203.05,"text":"其實是有困境"},{"start":24203.05,"end":24204.05,"text":"那我也有看到"},{"start":24204.05,"end":24205.05,"text":"院板有一個"},{"start":24205.05,"end":24207.05,"text":"這個我會有點擔心就是說"},{"start":24207.05,"end":24208.05,"text":"好那如果今天地方都不做"},{"start":24208.05,"end":24209.05,"text":"反正我們中央"},{"start":24209.05,"end":24211.05,"text":"開始成立一個任務的小組"},{"start":24211.05,"end":24212.05,"text":"然後來開始處理"},{"start":24212.05,"end":24213.05,"text":"這些相關的問題"},{"start":24213.05,"end":24215.05,"text":"這樣這個把權責"},{"start":24215.05,"end":24216.05,"text":"直接說好啦"},{"start":24216.05,"end":24217.05,"text":"那如果你不做"},{"start":24217.05,"end":24218.05,"text":"那我來弄"},{"start":24218.05,"end":24219.05,"text":"我來弄"},{"start":24219.42,"end":24222.42,"text":"你要確保有這樣的人力跟資源"},{"start":24222.42,"end":24224.42,"text":"我是怕說人力跟資源不足"},{"start":24224.42,"end":24225.42,"text":"那這個對方不做"},{"start":24225.42,"end":24226.42,"text":"那我就來做"},{"start":24226.42,"end":24228.42,"text":"但是你的人力跟資源不足的狀況之下"},{"start":24228.42,"end":24230.42,"text":"你要幫他來做這件事情"},{"start":24230.42,"end":24232.42,"text":"這個可能也會有人力跟資源"},{"start":24232.42,"end":24233.42,"text":"配置上的問題"},{"start":24233.42,"end":24235.42,"text":"我覺得這可能要思考一下"},{"start":24235.42,"end":24236.42,"text":"當然這個在逐條的時候"},{"start":24236.42,"end":24237.42,"text":"我覺得可以慢慢來討論"},{"start":24237.42,"end":24240.42,"text":"但我覺得我們先有這樣的一個大方向"},{"start":24240.42,"end":24242.42,"text":"就是說我們也是要讓大家知道"},{"start":24242.42,"end":24245.42,"text":"這個食安法上面的宣示確實是重要"},{"start":24245.42,"end":24247.42,"text":"但是如果他真的不執行的時候"},{"start":24247.42,"end":24248.42,"text":"他就是沒有要去檢驗"},{"start":24248.42,"end":24250.42,"text":"那我們到底應該要怎麼辦"},{"start":24250.42,"end":24253.42,"text":"這個其實應該清楚的讓社會大眾知道"},{"start":24253.42,"end":24254.42,"text":"或者看一下有什麼機制"},{"start":24254.42,"end":24255.42,"text":"我認為比較好的機制"},{"start":24255.42,"end":24256.42,"text":"反而是一開始講的那一個"},{"start":24256.42,"end":24258.42,"text":"就是讓檢驗的單位變成"},{"start":24258.42,"end":24260.42,"text":"變成是一個要回報"},{"start":24260.42,"end":24261.42,"text":"他又沒有決定空間"},{"start":24261.42,"end":24262.42,"text":"他就直接上傳"},{"start":24262.42,"end":24263.42,"text":"那這樣的話"},{"start":24263.42,"end":24265.42,"text":"至少我們能夠資訊的掌握就會更明確"},{"start":24265.42,"end":24267.42,"text":"我覺得這個反而是一個好的方向"},{"start":24267.42,"end":24268.42,"text":"那其他的話"},{"start":24268.42,"end":24270.42,"text":"我覺得不是要慎重考慮"},{"start":24270.42,"end":24272.42,"text":"而是在修法討論的過程當中"},{"start":24272.42,"end":24273.42,"text":"民眾必須要知道這一點"},{"start":24273.42,"end":24274.42,"text":"好"},{"start":24274.42,"end":24276.42,"text":"很謝謝委員很深入"},{"start":24276.42,"end":24278.42,"text":"非常深入又專業給我們的建議"},{"start":24278.42,"end":24279.42,"text":"很謝謝您的提醒"},{"start":24279.42,"end":24280.42,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":24280.42,"end":24282.42,"text":"那我就先問到這邊"},{"start":24282.42,"end":24283.42,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":24283.42,"end":24284.42,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":24285.77,"end":24286.77,"text":"好"},{"start":24286.77,"end":24287.77,"text":"謝謝什麼樣的委員"},{"start":24287.77,"end":24289.77,"text":"那接著請楊耀委員"},{"start":24298.78,"end":24299.78,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":24299.78,"end":24300.78,"text":"主席請一下時部長"},{"start":24301.85,"end":24302.85,"text":"好請時部長"},{"start":24306.27,"end":24307.27,"text":"楊委員好"},{"start":24307.27,"end":24308.27,"text":"部長好"},{"start":24308.27,"end":24309.27,"text":"部長我其實很無奈"},{"start":24309.27,"end":24312.27,"text":"因為我實在不知道請誰"},{"start":24313.46,"end":24315.46,"text":"請誰出來"},{"start":24316.06,"end":24318.06,"text":"回答我的質詢"},{"start":24318.06,"end":24319.06,"text":"因為"},{"start":24319.4,"end":24321.4,"text":"我來立法院以後"},{"start":24321.4,"end":24324.4,"text":"大概跟你共事了那麼久"},{"start":24324.4,"end":24327.4,"text":"我很清楚你不是一個"},{"start":24327.4,"end":24330.4,"text":"會蓋牌斥案當門神的人"},{"start":24330.4,"end":24332.4,"text":"那今天這樣子的"},{"start":24332.4,"end":24335.4,"text":"專題報告的題目"},{"start":24335.4,"end":24339.4,"text":"其實我讓你上來回答問題"},{"start":24339.4,"end":24341.4,"text":"我覺得對你很不禮貌"},{"start":24341.4,"end":24342.4,"text":"不會"},{"start":24342.4,"end":24343.4,"text":"很謝謝委員的肯定"},{"start":24343.4,"end":24344.4,"text":"不過"},{"start":24344.4,"end":24347.4,"text":"我講實話的人"},{"start":24347.4,"end":24348.4,"text":"就是說"},{"start":24348.4,"end":24351.4,"text":"不過不找你好像也不行"},{"start":24351.4,"end":24353.4,"text":"因為剛剛我的助理"},{"start":24353.4,"end":24355.4,"text":"跟我講了說"},{"start":24355.4,"end":24359.4,"text":"盧學院市長已經認證了"},{"start":24359.4,"end":24360.4,"text":"江志康署長"},{"start":24361.46,"end":24362.46,"text":"不是門神"},{"start":24364.32,"end":24367.32,"text":"就是今天的題目"},{"start":24367.32,"end":24369.32,"text":"我其實看到題目的時候"},{"start":24369.32,"end":24372.32,"text":"我就有一點想放棄"},{"start":24372.32,"end":24373.32,"text":"這一次的質詢"},{"start":24373.32,"end":24375.32,"text":"因為對你們很不禮貌"},{"start":24375.32,"end":24377.32,"text":"不過我既然來了"},{"start":24377.32,"end":24379.32,"text":"我們還是探討一些問題"},{"start":24379.32,"end":24380.32,"text":"好不好"},{"start":24380.32,"end":24383.32,"text":"部長你很詳細的講一下"},{"start":24383.32,"end":24386.32,"text":"就是你"},{"start":24386.79,"end":24388.79,"text":"你認為"},{"start":24388.91,"end":24389.91,"text":"A"},{"start":24390.14,"end":24391.14,"text":"太糖"},{"start":24391.9,"end":24392.9,"text":"在發現了以後"},{"start":24392.9,"end":24394.9,"text":"在發現原料有問題了以後"},{"start":24394.9,"end":24396.9,"text":"沒有通報的義務"},{"start":24396.9,"end":24401.9,"text":"你嘗試著簡單二要的講一下"},{"start":24403.09,"end":24404.09,"text":"這個"},{"start":24404.37,"end":24407.37,"text":"大家對於這個太糖的期望"},{"start":24407.37,"end":24410.37,"text":"讓他做更多一點"},{"start":24410.37,"end":24413.37,"text":"更多一點這個做法"},{"start":24413.37,"end":24414.37,"text":"多做一點"},{"start":24414.37,"end":24418.37,"text":"我想這些大家都是期待的"},{"start":24418.37,"end":24419.37,"text":"這個我也認同"},{"start":24419.76,"end":24422.76,"text":"但是依法論法要處分的時候"},{"start":24422.76,"end":24425.76,"text":"我們還是要回到法律的授權"},{"start":24425.76,"end":24426.76,"text":"法律的明確原則"},{"start":24426.76,"end":24427.76,"text":"我第一次就講了"},{"start":24427.76,"end":24430.76,"text":"法律有規定義務"},{"start":24430.76,"end":24432.76,"text":"還有責任"},{"start":24432.76,"end":24433.76,"text":"假如沒有的話"},{"start":24433.76,"end":24438.76,"text":"就是我們叫做急功耗益"},{"start":24438.76,"end":24440.76,"text":"這個是額外的東西"},{"start":24440.76,"end":24441.76,"text":"我們現在是在講"},{"start":24441.76,"end":24443.76,"text":"他有沒有在法律上"},{"start":24443.76,"end":24445.76,"text":"他應不應該"},{"start":24445.76,"end":24448.76,"text":"有沒有負擔通報的責任"},{"start":24448.76,"end":24449.76,"text":"是"},{"start":24449.76,"end":24451.76,"text":"所以我們回到這個"},{"start":24451.76,"end":24453.76,"text":"這個太糖的這一批貨"},{"start":24453.76,"end":24455.76,"text":"中聯的這個311油槽"},{"start":24455.76,"end":24457.76,"text":"他是脫膠原油"},{"start":24457.76,"end":24459.76,"text":"那麼我們法律上有訂出"},{"start":24459.76,"end":24461.76,"text":"這個衛生安全標準的"},{"start":24461.76,"end":24463.76,"text":"指的是實用油脂"},{"start":24463.76,"end":24466.76,"text":"最終那個產品的2.0PPB"},{"start":24466.76,"end":24468.76,"text":"我們是訂這個"},{"start":24468.76,"end":24471.76,"text":"所以我們並沒有去訂脫膠原油"},{"start":24471.76,"end":24472.76,"text":"或者是黃豆"},{"start":24472.76,"end":24474.76,"text":"他的食品安全標準"},{"start":24474.76,"end":24475.76,"text":"沒有訂這個"},{"start":24475.76,"end":24477.76,"text":"所以當然就太糖而言"},{"start":24477.76,"end":24479.76,"text":"他拿的是脫膠原油"},{"start":24479.76,"end":24482.76,"text":"雖然他的這個驗收標準"},{"start":24482.76,"end":24483.76,"text":"他無法通過"},{"start":24483.76,"end":24486.76,"text":"但是不等於我們現在所公佈的"},{"start":24486.76,"end":24489.76,"text":"食品油脂他超標的"},{"start":24489.76,"end":24490.76,"text":"這個是不相等"},{"start":24490.76,"end":24492.76,"text":"所以從法律義務上來講"},{"start":24492.76,"end":24495.76,"text":"他當然是沒有這個通報的義務"},{"start":24495.76,"end":24496.76,"text":"所以這個是"},{"start":24496.76,"end":24498.76,"text":"我想是很清楚的"},{"start":24498.76,"end":24499.76,"text":"但是大家希望"},{"start":24499.76,"end":24501.76,"text":"食安大家共同把關"},{"start":24501.76,"end":24502.76,"text":"人人有責"},{"start":24502.76,"end":24504.76,"text":"大家都來通報"},{"start":24504.76,"end":24505.76,"text":"這個我們絕對是鼓勵的"},{"start":24505.76,"end":24506.76,"text":"對啦"},{"start":24506.76,"end":24508.76,"text":"就是單純的期待"},{"start":24508.76,"end":24512.76,"text":"跟法律刻意的義務是兩件事"},{"start":24512.76,"end":24514.76,"text":"我們當然也希望"},{"start":24514.76,"end":24515.76,"text":"不只台糖"},{"start":24515.76,"end":24518.76,"text":"任何公司甚至於一般的民眾"},{"start":24518.76,"end":24521.76,"text":"知道了以後就通報"},{"start":24521.76,"end":24526.76,"text":"只是說這個不應該當作責任"},{"start":24526.76,"end":24531.76,"text":"然後把它引爆成一個政治的議題"},{"start":24531.76,"end":24534.76,"text":"我覺得要我講"},{"start":24534.76,"end":24536.76,"text":"要我講我就是覺得"},{"start":24536.76,"end":24538.76,"text":"食安法該修"},{"start":24538.76,"end":24540.76,"text":"我們趕快來修啦"},{"start":24540.76,"end":24545.76,"text":"那討論這個案子討論太久了啦"},{"start":24548.03,"end":24550.03,"text":"應不應該再"},{"start":24550.96,"end":24552.96,"text":"我說真的就是說衛福部"},{"start":24553.7,"end":24556.7,"text":"管得就已經夠多了"},{"start":24556.7,"end":24557.7,"text":"食藥署管得"},{"start":24558.66,"end":24559.66,"text":"也很多啦"},{"start":24560.07,"end":24563.07,"text":"從藥品到化妝品到"},{"start":24563.07,"end":24565.07,"text":"柴米油鹽可能柴沒有啦"},{"start":24565.07,"end":24568.07,"text":"醬醋茶都歸你們啦"},{"start":24568.07,"end":24571.07,"text":"肉製品也歸你們啦"},{"start":24571.07,"end":24576.07,"text":"有沒有那麼多的人力跟財力"},{"start":24576.07,"end":24578.07,"text":"可以去支應"},{"start":24578.42,"end":24579.42,"text":"欸"},{"start":24579.6,"end":24581.6,"text":"少部分人的期待啦"},{"start":24581.6,"end":24583.6,"text":"我為什麼說少部分人的期待"},{"start":24583.6,"end":24584.6,"text":"因為"},{"start":24585.57,"end":24589.57,"text":"我自己的觀察可能彭無比較偏遠"},{"start":24589.57,"end":24592.57,"text":"我說真的我在這段時間"},{"start":24592.57,"end":24595.57,"text":"在彭無並沒有很多民眾"},{"start":24595.57,"end":24598.57,"text":"跟我反應到有此的問題啦"},{"start":24599.44,"end":24601.44,"text":"因為我們很快就讓他下架了"},{"start":24601.44,"end":24603.44,"text":"我們在7月2號就發布"},{"start":24603.44,"end":24605.44,"text":"7月3號那個油品就下架了"},{"start":24605.44,"end":24607.44,"text":"然後到7月9號還擴大"},{"start":24607.44,"end":24609.44,"text":"全面4到6月都下架"},{"start":24609.44,"end":24612.44,"text":"所以安全的用油是我們的責任"},{"start":24612.44,"end":24613.44,"text":"這個絕對沒有問題"},{"start":24613.44,"end":24615.44,"text":"這個就我講的嘛"},{"start":24615.44,"end":24619.44,"text":"就現在的食安法"},{"start":24619.44,"end":24624.44,"text":"並沒有課與中央直接查場的義務嘛"},{"start":24624.44,"end":24626.44,"text":"你們只有成立專案嘛"},{"start":24626.44,"end":24628.44,"text":"現在目前對不對"},{"start":24628.67,"end":24631.67,"text":"查場的直接是在41條的規定"},{"start":24631.67,"end":24632.67,"text":"這是地方政府"},{"start":24632.67,"end":24635.67,"text":"那必要的時候中央當然也可以來做"},{"start":24635.67,"end":24637.67,"text":"那必要也都是"},{"start":24637.67,"end":24638.67,"text":"所謂的必要坦白講啦"},{"start":24638.67,"end":24641.67,"text":"就是風暴產生以後才會有必要啦"},{"start":24641.67,"end":24643.67,"text":"要不然你們也不會"},{"start":24643.67,"end":24646.67,"text":"你們沒有那麼多的人力跟資源可以去"},{"start":24646.67,"end":24647.67,"text":"查場在地方"},{"start":24647.67,"end":24648.67,"text":"對不對"},{"start":24648.67,"end":24650.67,"text":"查場的責任在地方嘛"},{"start":24650.67,"end":24652.67,"text":"那有關中央的部分"},{"start":24652.67,"end":24654.67,"text":"就是第一時間"},{"start":24654.67,"end":24656.67,"text":"應該下架的也都下架完了嘛"},{"start":24656.67,"end":24658.67,"text":"那我從第一次"},{"start":24658.67,"end":24661.67,"text":"這個專題你討論好幾次了啦"},{"start":24661.67,"end":24663.67,"text":"我從第一次就講"},{"start":24663.67,"end":24666.67,"text":"就是該修法就趕快修嘛"},{"start":24669.07,"end":24676.07,"text":"立法院覺得必須要課與衛福部跟食藥署"},{"start":24676.65,"end":24678.65,"text":"很大的義務"},{"start":24678.65,"end":24679.65,"text":"查場義務"},{"start":24679.92,"end":24680.92,"text":"那也可以討論嘛"},{"start":24680.92,"end":24684.92,"text":"那相對應的人力跟經費"},{"start":24685.96,"end":24688.96,"text":"大家必須要共同來支持嘛"},{"start":24688.96,"end":24690.96,"text":"就只有這樣子嘛"},{"start":24690.96,"end":24693.96,"text":"我一直覺得把"},{"start":24695.88,"end":24697.88,"text":"把一個問題"},{"start":24697.88,"end":24698.88,"text":"把民生問題"},{"start":24698.88,"end":24700.88,"text":"當作政治問題來炒作"},{"start":24700.88,"end":24703.88,"text":"其實我不大喜歡啦"},{"start":24703.88,"end":24705.88,"text":"我真的不大喜歡啦"},{"start":24705.88,"end":24708.88,"text":"我覺得我們浪費太多時間"},{"start":24708.88,"end":24710.88,"text":"在討論這個議題上面"},{"start":24711.38,"end":24716.38,"text":"而且可能跟真正的民意有一點脫鉤啦"},{"start":24716.38,"end":24718.38,"text":"就是像部長剛剛回答的"},{"start":24718.38,"end":24719.38,"text":"民意"},{"start":24720.98,"end":24721.98,"text":"民意的"},{"start":24725.17,"end":24726.17,"text":"基層的聲音"},{"start":24726.17,"end":24729.17,"text":"可能在我們下架完成的時候"},{"start":24730.36,"end":24732.36,"text":"就結束了啦"},{"start":24732.74,"end":24735.74,"text":"那接下來我們行政跟立法部門"},{"start":24735.74,"end":24736.74,"text":"應該做的"},{"start":24736.74,"end":24738.74,"text":"就是好好的坐下來"},{"start":24738.74,"end":24740.74,"text":"趕快修法啦"},{"start":24740.74,"end":24742.74,"text":"這個防止下一次"},{"start":24742.74,"end":24746.74,"text":"不幸事件的產生"},{"start":24746.74,"end":24748.74,"text":"這個才是更重要的啦"},{"start":24748.74,"end":24750.74,"text":"那我剛剛"},{"start":24752.38,"end":24755.38,"text":"聽沈柏楊委員在問啦"},{"start":24755.38,"end":24757.38,"text":"我還是要"},{"start":24757.38,"end":24760.38,"text":"我簡單問一個修法的問題"},{"start":24760.43,"end":24761.43,"text":"就是"},{"start":24763.11,"end":24765.11,"text":"通報的責任"},{"start":24766.14,"end":24767.14,"text":"的對象"},{"start":24767.14,"end":24769.14,"text":"我們在修法的時候"},{"start":24769.76,"end":24771.76,"text":"院板已經提出了嘛"},{"start":24771.76,"end":24773.76,"text":"有沒有擴大"},{"start":24773.76,"end":24774.76,"text":"擴大賦予"},{"start":24774.76,"end":24776.76,"text":"哪一些人"},{"start":24776.76,"end":24778.76,"text":"那個通報的責任"},{"start":24778.76,"end":24781.76,"text":"除了現有的食品業者之外"},{"start":24781.76,"end":24783.76,"text":"我們擴大到檢驗單位"},{"start":24783.76,"end":24784.76,"text":"檢驗單位"},{"start":24784.76,"end":24786.76,"text":"我第一次質詢就講了嘛"},{"start":24786.76,"end":24791.76,"text":"那第三個就是HACCP的認證單位"},{"start":24791.76,"end":24793.76,"text":"他也要通報"},{"start":24793.76,"end":24794.76,"text":"對"},{"start":24794.76,"end":24795.76,"text":"就是"},{"start":24795.76,"end":24796.76,"text":"等於二級評管的也要通報"},{"start":24796.76,"end":24799.76,"text":"我們一級評管是他的自驗嘛"},{"start":24799.76,"end":24800.76,"text":"就廠商的自驗"},{"start":24800.76,"end":24802.76,"text":"所以他自設的實驗室"},{"start":24802.76,"end":24804.76,"text":"以後也要通報"},{"start":24804.76,"end":24807.76,"text":"不只是第二級評管的外部實驗室"},{"start":24807.76,"end":24810.76,"text":"那二級評管有外部的認證單位"},{"start":24810.76,"end":24812.76,"text":"去查核HACCP的"},{"start":24812.76,"end":24814.76,"text":"他發現異常也要通報"},{"start":24814.76,"end":24815.76,"text":"他檢驗也要通報"},{"start":24815.76,"end":24818.76,"text":"所以我們把通報的對象都擴大"},{"start":24818.76,"end":24821.76,"text":"就是通報的程序"},{"start":24821.76,"end":24823.76,"text":"要怎麼簡化精準"},{"start":24823.76,"end":24825.76,"text":"要不然應該是"},{"start":24825.76,"end":24826.76,"text":"只要有檢驗了"},{"start":24826.76,"end":24827.76,"text":"其實通報一下"},{"start":24827.76,"end":24831.76,"text":"現在的進展處理其實也不難啦"},{"start":24831.76,"end":24835.76,"text":"那有通報就可以"},{"start":24835.76,"end":24837.76,"text":"我們可以更早預警"},{"start":24837.76,"end":24839.76,"text":"對"},{"start":24839.76,"end":24841.76,"text":"好啦"},{"start":24841.76,"end":24843.76,"text":"還是要跟兩位致歉啦"},{"start":24843.76,"end":24845.76,"text":"因為我覺得今天"},{"start":24845.76,"end":24848.76,"text":"今天確實是不應該請你們上台的"},{"start":24848.76,"end":24850.76,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":24850.76,"end":24851.76,"text":"在未來修法的時候"},{"start":24851.76,"end":24853.76,"text":"我來請您多多指導"},{"start":24853.76,"end":24855.76,"text":"大家一起努力"},{"start":24855.76,"end":24858.76,"text":"我想食安大家都很重視"},{"start":24858.76,"end":24864.76,"text":"並不代表大家對政治議題很重視"},{"start":24864.76,"end":24865.76,"text":"這是兩回事"},{"start":24867.12,"end":24869.12,"text":"我剛剛講的就是"},{"start":24869.12,"end":24872.12,"text":"把食安問題當成政治問題"},{"start":24872.12,"end":24874.12,"text":"這個本身就是一種錯誤"},{"start":24874.12,"end":24876.12,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":24876.12,"end":24877.12,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":24877.97,"end":24879.97,"text":"好謝謝楊二委員"},{"start":24881.02,"end":24884.02,"text":"接著請劉建國委員"},{"start":24894.42,"end":24895.42,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":24895.42,"end":24896.42,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":24896.44,"end":24897.44,"text":"好請食部長"},{"start":24901.52,"end":24902.52,"text":"立委員好"},{"start":24902.52,"end":24903.52,"text":"部長好"},{"start":24903.52,"end":24907.52,"text":"我要來釐清這個中聯問題"},{"start":24907.52,"end":24909.52,"text":"遊品的這個事件"},{"start":24909.52,"end":24911.52,"text":"你看這個時序看這樣對不對"},{"start":24911.65,"end":24912.65,"text":"然後再跟你double check一下"},{"start":24912.65,"end":24915.65,"text":"5月4號台黨知道中聯遊"},{"start":24915.65,"end":24917.65,"text":"這個本匾比超標嘛"},{"start":24917.65,"end":24920.65,"text":"然後再來5月18號是台黨拒收"},{"start":24920.65,"end":24921.65,"text":"這該批的原料"},{"start":24922.6,"end":24925.6,"text":"6月4號藍橋遊子自行送驗使發現異常"},{"start":24925.6,"end":24929.6,"text":"10號藍橋遊子通知上友廠商扶壽公司"},{"start":24929.6,"end":24933.6,"text":"30號中聯遊子正式向食藥署通報"},{"start":24933.6,"end":24934.6,"text":"這這樣的時序對嗎"},{"start":24935.46,"end":24937.46,"text":"不對不對"},{"start":24937.46,"end":24940.46,"text":"那個更早是藍橋在5月13號"},{"start":24940.46,"end":24946.46,"text":"他就已經驗出他自驗的第一個這個遊品超標"},{"start":24946.46,"end":24947.46,"text":"對"},{"start":24947.46,"end":24948.46,"text":"這是5月13號"},{"start":24948.46,"end":24953.46,"text":"就是我們第一批這個要求下架的那一批是他驗出來的"},{"start":24953.46,"end":24954.46,"text":"5月13號"},{"start":24954.46,"end":24955.46,"text":"好OK"},{"start":24955.46,"end":24956.46,"text":"那"},{"start":24957.21,"end":24959.21,"text":"那5月15號驗的又不同"},{"start":24959.21,"end":24961.21,"text":"他那個是脫膠原油"},{"start":24961.21,"end":24964.21,"text":"並不是他沒有批號的"},{"start":24964.21,"end":24967.21,"text":"5月13號藍橋驗的那個是有批號"},{"start":24967.21,"end":24971.21,"text":"那個是0404的那個批號"},{"start":24971.21,"end":24972.21,"text":"0404嗎"},{"start":24972.21,"end":24976.21,"text":"對就是4月的那個遊品"},{"start":24977.16,"end":24979.16,"text":"好沒關係我大致上這樣"},{"start":24979.16,"end":24983.16,"text":"就承認部長剛剛有更正我們再來做一個修正"},{"start":24983.16,"end":24984.16,"text":"那我是透過媒體的報導裡面"},{"start":24985.17,"end":24986.17,"text":"應該就可以去斷定嘛"},{"start":24986.17,"end":24991.17,"text":"中年他最少在10月份就知道他的油應該是有問題"},{"start":24991.8,"end":24993.8,"text":"4月就應該知道了"},{"start":24994.13,"end":24996.13,"text":"所以我在提供這個時序的時候"},{"start":24996.7,"end":24997.7,"text":"又可以發現"},{"start":24997.7,"end":24998.7,"text":"他5月就知道了"},{"start":24998.7,"end":24999.7,"text":"最慢"},{"start":25001.63,"end":25003.63,"text":"應該最早是5月前"},{"start":25003.8,"end":25005.8,"text":"最慢就是5月中年自己知道"},{"start":25005.8,"end":25007.8,"text":"他的油是有狀況的"},{"start":25007.8,"end":25009.8,"text":"對因為這個"},{"start":25009.86,"end":25010.86,"text":"據我們現在的了解"},{"start":25010.86,"end":25017.86,"text":"5月15號台糖去送驗出這一個槽裡面"},{"start":25017.86,"end":25019.86,"text":"他的這個VAP值之後"},{"start":25019.86,"end":25021.86,"text":"中年有自己再驗一次"},{"start":25021.86,"end":25024.86,"text":"所以他這一批就停在那裡"},{"start":25024.86,"end":25025.86,"text":"就沒有再繼續做"},{"start":25025.86,"end":25027.86,"text":"不過當時候他就應該了解"},{"start":25027.86,"end":25030.86,"text":"他的整個製程或者是顏料上"},{"start":25030.86,"end":25033.86,"text":"他就應該回頭去做一些處理"},{"start":25033.86,"end":25034.86,"text":"那麼"},{"start":25035.31,"end":25038.31,"text":"這個更謹慎的他後面的一些"},{"start":25038.31,"end":25040.31,"text":"後續因為他還有很多批要出貨"},{"start":25040.31,"end":25042.31,"text":"就應該要開始逐批檢驗"},{"start":25044.45,"end":25046.45,"text":"他要賣貨給人家"},{"start":25046.45,"end":25047.45,"text":"對方拒絕他"},{"start":25047.45,"end":25048.45,"text":"對不對"},{"start":25048.45,"end":25050.45,"text":"所以他應該也要給"},{"start":25051.41,"end":25053.41,"text":"給台糖一個收穫才對"},{"start":25053.41,"end":25055.41,"text":"應該是沒有"},{"start":25056.59,"end":25057.59,"text":"應該是沒有收"},{"start":25059.78,"end":25060.78,"text":"最後"},{"start":25061.89,"end":25063.89,"text":"怎麼說就是他沒有去"},{"start":25065.06,"end":25068.06,"text":"中原是不是到底怎麼去跟台糖講的"},{"start":25068.4,"end":25070.4,"text":"總是有個說法"},{"start":25070.4,"end":25072.4,"text":"這個說法到底怎麼樣我們不清楚"},{"start":25073.45,"end":25076.45,"text":"不過當拒絕跟他購買這些"},{"start":25077.38,"end":25079.38,"text":"這些"},{"start":25079.38,"end":25081.38,"text":"這些原料的時候"},{"start":25083.1,"end":25087.1,"text":"我在想說這個事情怎麼會到現在才"},{"start":25087.87,"end":25088.87,"text":"實際上出來"},{"start":25089.81,"end":25090.81,"text":"這是一件事情"},{"start":25090.81,"end":25091.81,"text":"那第二件事情"},{"start":25092.53,"end":25093.53,"text":"也就是不管"},{"start":25093.53,"end":25095.53,"text":"不管4月中年自己知不知道"},{"start":25095.53,"end":25097.53,"text":"到5月中他就必須知道"},{"start":25097.53,"end":25099.53,"text":"而且他的油品已經被退貨"},{"start":25099.53,"end":25100.53,"text":"有問題的部分"},{"start":25100.53,"end":25102.53,"text":"不然6月12日也知道"},{"start":25102.53,"end":25104.53,"text":"結果拖到6月30日才主動通報"},{"start":25104.53,"end":25107.53,"text":"這個中間中原到底要幹什麼"},{"start":25107.53,"end":25110.53,"text":"滿天過海企圖在下面證據"},{"start":25112.09,"end":25113.09,"text":"這不可能啊"},{"start":25114.79,"end":25115.79,"text":"也不可能嘛對不對"},{"start":25115.79,"end":25119.79,"text":"不過我今天要突顯這個問題是要跟部長講說"},{"start":25119.79,"end":25121.79,"text":"從這個時間表來看"},{"start":25121.79,"end":25123.79,"text":"我覺得人性不可信"},{"start":25125.61,"end":25127.61,"text":"人性不可信"},{"start":25128.27,"end":25130.27,"text":"依食安法的規定"},{"start":25130.52,"end":25132.52,"text":"台糖購買中聯的半成品不需通報"},{"start":25132.52,"end":25134.52,"text":"所以台糖沒有通報"},{"start":25134.52,"end":25135.52,"text":"但依食安法的規定"},{"start":25135.52,"end":25137.52,"text":"應該主動通報的藍僑也沒有通報"},{"start":25137.52,"end":25138.52,"text":"那為什麼"},{"start":25139.63,"end":25142.63,"text":"因為藍僑拿到的是"},{"start":25142.63,"end":25144.63,"text":"已經是油品了"},{"start":25144.63,"end":25146.63,"text":"他已經是食用油品了"},{"start":25146.63,"end":25149.63,"text":"那麼台糖去驗的這個叫脫膠原油"},{"start":25149.63,"end":25150.63,"text":"脫膠原油"},{"start":25150.63,"end":25151.63,"text":"他並不是油品"},{"start":25151.63,"end":25154.63,"text":"那我們現在訂的扁平比標準指的就是"},{"start":25154.63,"end":25158.63,"text":"食用油脂的這個油品的標準"},{"start":25158.63,"end":25160.63,"text":"不是那個脫膠原油的標準"},{"start":25161.48,"end":25165.48,"text":"部長我是想用另外一個層次去看待這個事情"},{"start":25165.48,"end":25166.48,"text":"就是說"},{"start":25166.78,"end":25168.78,"text":"不管台糖不管藍僑"},{"start":25169.97,"end":25171.97,"text":"他們全部都是生命上往來的夥伴"},{"start":25171.97,"end":25172.97,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":25172.97,"end":25173.97,"text":"也因為這樣"},{"start":25173.97,"end":25175.97,"text":"台糖藍僑胡壽胡貌中聯"},{"start":25177.19,"end":25180.19,"text":"不管是生意往來或是子母公司的關係鏈"},{"start":25180.19,"end":25184.19,"text":"所以你要這些業者互相把關主動監督"},{"start":25185.31,"end":25187.31,"text":"那又是在挑戰人性"},{"start":25187.31,"end":25188.31,"text":"對"},{"start":25188.31,"end":25190.31,"text":"所以我們未來修法上就是希望"},{"start":25190.31,"end":25192.31,"text":"因為他都是送外驗"},{"start":25192.31,"end":25194.31,"text":"這個第三個檢驗單位"},{"start":25194.31,"end":25196.31,"text":"所以檢驗單位加上他可以通報"},{"start":25196.31,"end":25199.31,"text":"那我們就可以提早有預警"},{"start":25199.31,"end":25203.31,"text":"那甚至在報的部分的這個檢驗的結果"},{"start":25203.31,"end":25205.31,"text":"我們也可以來討論"},{"start":25205.31,"end":25207.31,"text":"更往前一點一些重要的節點上"},{"start":25207.31,"end":25211.31,"text":"就把這個資料傳到這個主管機關來"},{"start":25211.31,"end":25214.31,"text":"我們就可以更早有這個風險的預警"},{"start":25214.42,"end":25217.42,"text":"所以說真的是沒有人可以保證"},{"start":25217.42,"end":25220.42,"text":"以後絕對不會再有下游業者發生問題"},{"start":25220.42,"end":25223.42,"text":"那上游製造業者用商業的壓力"},{"start":25223.42,"end":25225.42,"text":"人情壓力等各種方式"},{"start":25225.42,"end":25227.42,"text":"讓下游的業者不要去做通報"},{"start":25227.42,"end":25229.42,"text":"這可能會再發生"},{"start":25229.42,"end":25233.42,"text":"然後所以法律的修訂"},{"start":25233.42,"end":25235.42,"text":"法律的制定不能去挑戰人性"},{"start":25235.42,"end":25237.42,"text":"實在就是如此"},{"start":25237.42,"end":25241.42,"text":"我想就是必須要有堅強的外部監制"},{"start":25241.42,"end":25243.42,"text":"這樣的一個制度存在"},{"start":25243.42,"end":25244.42,"text":"對不對"},{"start":25244.42,"end":25246.42,"text":"所以我在我想本席在這次的宣傳裡面"},{"start":25246.42,"end":25249.42,"text":"提案特別要求要增加公衛師食品技師"},{"start":25249.42,"end":25251.42,"text":"在食品檢驗上的職能"},{"start":25251.42,"end":25255.42,"text":"透過他們的監督才能落實這個食安的檢查"},{"start":25255.42,"end":25257.42,"text":"我想是這個樣子"},{"start":25257.42,"end":25259.42,"text":"所以不只是增加外部的稽查"},{"start":25259.42,"end":25261.42,"text":"政府的查採也是非常重要"},{"start":25261.42,"end":25263.42,"text":"就像台南市他可以擴大"},{"start":25263.42,"end":25265.42,"text":"抽驗23件流品"},{"start":25265.42,"end":25267.42,"text":"現在又發現3件的苦茶油"},{"start":25267.42,"end":25269.42,"text":"當中這本扁比又是超標"},{"start":25270.88,"end":25271.88,"text":"NO"},{"start":25272.37,"end":25273.37,"text":"為什麼現在才發現"},{"start":25273.37,"end":25276.37,"text":"這是顯然過去地方單位在抽驗上"},{"start":25276.37,"end":25278.37,"text":"還是都有些問題的存在"},{"start":25278.92,"end":25280.92,"text":"還是都有些問題的存在"},{"start":25280.92,"end":25282.92,"text":"所以今天原本要修"},{"start":25282.92,"end":25284.92,"text":"現在又拖到現在"},{"start":25284.92,"end":25286.92,"text":"所以如果根據三法第七條"},{"start":25286.92,"end":25289.92,"text":"授權應訂定食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":25289.92,"end":25292.92,"text":"與應辦理檢驗之食品業者"},{"start":25292.92,"end":25295.92,"text":"最低檢驗週期及其他相關事項"},{"start":25295.92,"end":25296.92,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":25297.71,"end":25298.71,"text":"我也不會打算什麼時候修"},{"start":25299.79,"end":25301.79,"text":"現在已經在進行修正"},{"start":25301.79,"end":25302.79,"text":"我們會把它用成一個辦法"},{"start":25302.79,"end":25306.79,"text":"然後去訂出不同的檢驗頻率"},{"start":25306.79,"end":25307.79,"text":"上下層"},{"start":25307.79,"end":25310.79,"text":"如果是最上層以中聯為例"},{"start":25310.79,"end":25312.79,"text":"中聯這個都會要求他"},{"start":25312.79,"end":25313.79,"text":"逐批檢驗"},{"start":25313.79,"end":25315.79,"text":"然後下面第二層的"},{"start":25315.79,"end":25317.79,"text":"這個泰山福壽的話"},{"start":25317.79,"end":25318.79,"text":"就是暗劑檢驗"},{"start":25318.79,"end":25321.79,"text":"我們就會提高他的檢驗的頻率了"},{"start":25322.99,"end":25324.99,"text":"但是這個其他的事項基本上"},{"start":25324.99,"end":25327.99,"text":"有需要我們再修十萬法過測"},{"start":25327.99,"end":25328.99,"text":"這個不要"},{"start":25328.99,"end":25330.99,"text":"這個授權我們就會"},{"start":25330.99,"end":25331.99,"text":"所以這個應該就可以"},{"start":25331.99,"end":25332.99,"text":"可以馬上來找手"},{"start":25332.99,"end":25334.99,"text":"來做一些調整對不對"},{"start":25334.99,"end":25336.99,"text":"因為目前辦法中明訂"},{"start":25336.99,"end":25338.99,"text":"資本的三千萬以上的"},{"start":25338.99,"end":25340.99,"text":"使用由此製造工廠"},{"start":25340.99,"end":25342.99,"text":"及辦理商業登記公司登記"},{"start":25342.99,"end":25344.99,"text":"每半年或每批檢驗"},{"start":25344.99,"end":25345.99,"text":"至少一次對不對"},{"start":25345.99,"end":25347.99,"text":"然後事實上天安政府"},{"start":25347.99,"end":25350.99,"text":"也沒有照衛福部食藥署這個標準"},{"start":25350.99,"end":25352.99,"text":"每半年或每批抽"},{"start":25352.99,"end":25355.99,"text":"才導致今天中聯這個問題有"},{"start":25355.99,"end":25358.99,"text":"甚至於股差有多出現本便比"},{"start":25358.99,"end":25359.99,"text":"應該是這樣"},{"start":25359.99,"end":25362.99,"text":"所以如果依照這個抽驗標準"},{"start":25362.99,"end":25365.99,"text":"應該就是趕快來修"},{"start":25365.99,"end":25367.99,"text":"全面提高抽驗的一個標準"},{"start":25367.99,"end":25368.99,"text":"是"},{"start":25370.18,"end":25372.18,"text":"所以食安不能等啊"},{"start":25372.18,"end":25373.18,"text":"那食安防"},{"start":25373.18,"end":25374.18,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":25374.18,"end":25376.18,"text":"我們現在其他這個大豆的"},{"start":25376.18,"end":25379.18,"text":"另外這個最上游的這三家"},{"start":25379.18,"end":25382.18,"text":"包含台糖、大統一還有常輝"},{"start":25382.18,"end":25384.18,"text":"都已經要求足批檢驗了"},{"start":25384.18,"end":25385.18,"text":"現在已經在做了"},{"start":25385.18,"end":25387.18,"text":"已經要求他們足批檢驗了"},{"start":25387.78,"end":25389.78,"text":"我想食安法送到立法院"},{"start":25389.78,"end":25391.78,"text":"一定會用最快速度來修"},{"start":25391.78,"end":25393.78,"text":"不過像今天這樣"},{"start":25393.78,"end":25395.78,"text":"委員本來要審查現在排專報"},{"start":25395.78,"end":25397.78,"text":"那可能今天就可能啦"},{"start":25397.78,"end":25399.78,"text":"今天就會來不及處理嘛"},{"start":25399.78,"end":25400.78,"text":"所以我才會說"},{"start":25400.78,"end":25403.78,"text":"這個標準啦"},{"start":25403.78,"end":25404.78,"text":"這個"},{"start":25405.43,"end":25407.43,"text":"是不是應該"},{"start":25407.43,"end":25408.43,"text":"是"},{"start":25408.43,"end":25409.43,"text":"因為這三個"},{"start":25409.43,"end":25411.43,"text":"我們小館的相關的報告標準"},{"start":25411.43,"end":25412.43,"text":"就先行"},{"start":25412.43,"end":25413.43,"text":"不要等到食安法過後"},{"start":25413.43,"end":25414.43,"text":"再來慢慢修嘛"},{"start":25414.43,"end":25415.43,"text":"部長可以認同嗎"},{"start":25415.43,"end":25416.43,"text":"可以"},{"start":25416.43,"end":25418.43,"text":"這個多久可以提出最新的版本"},{"start":25418.43,"end":25419.43,"text":"來進行公告"},{"start":25419.43,"end":25421.43,"text":"因為我們現在已經要求業者做了"},{"start":25421.43,"end":25423.43,"text":"但是我們這個還是要"},{"start":25423.43,"end":25425.43,"text":"按照這個法規預告的程序"},{"start":25425.43,"end":25427.43,"text":"我們在應該可以"},{"start":25427.43,"end":25429.43,"text":"近期就提出預告"},{"start":25429.43,"end":25431.43,"text":"因為我們大概已經修好"},{"start":25431.43,"end":25433.43,"text":"你的近期是多近期"},{"start":25433.43,"end":25434.43,"text":"明天"},{"start":25434.43,"end":25436.43,"text":"下禮拜"},{"start":25436.43,"end":25438.43,"text":"下禮拜預告應該是沒有問題"},{"start":25438.43,"end":25439.43,"text":"下禮拜預告"},{"start":25439.43,"end":25440.43,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":25440.43,"end":25442.43,"text":"因為我們先修了這個"},{"start":25442.43,"end":25444.43,"text":"食安法的草案"},{"start":25444.43,"end":25446.43,"text":"這個是授權辦法"},{"start":25446.43,"end":25447.43,"text":"我們同步在進行"},{"start":25447.43,"end":25449.43,"text":"所以這個我們內部上已經"},{"start":25449.43,"end":25452.43,"text":"下週就可以預告了"},{"start":25452.43,"end":25453.43,"text":"下週就可以預告"},{"start":25453.43,"end":25454.43,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":25454.43,"end":25455.43,"text":"好 部長再看"},{"start":25455.43,"end":25457.43,"text":"還是算先不回去了"},{"start":25457.43,"end":25459.43,"text":"772公民團體到衛福部門口陳情"},{"start":25459.43,"end":25461.43,"text":"這個部長"},{"start":25461.54,"end":25462.54,"text":"有走路了吧"},{"start":25463.93,"end":25465.93,"text":"年短料推的透明餐桌"},{"start":25465.93,"end":25468.93,"text":"年屬 玉修法標示主要原料產地"},{"start":25469.45,"end":25470.45,"text":"那這個"},{"start":25470.45,"end":25472.45,"text":"上下有文化基金會指出"},{"start":25472.45,"end":25474.45,"text":"現行制度下國外"},{"start":25474.45,"end":25475.45,"text":"原料經加工後"},{"start":25475.45,"end":25476.45,"text":"即可標示為台灣製造"},{"start":25476.45,"end":25478.45,"text":"消費者難以辨識主要原料來源"},{"start":25478.45,"end":25480.45,"text":"也因此才會發起"},{"start":25480.45,"end":25481.45,"text":"透明餐桌的連署"},{"start":25481.45,"end":25483.45,"text":"要求主管機關來修法"},{"start":25483.45,"end":25485.45,"text":"並在政策制定過程中"},{"start":25485.45,"end":25487.45,"text":"落實社會對話"},{"start":25487.45,"end":25489.45,"text":"提升食品標示的透明度"},{"start":25490.33,"end":25491.33,"text":"有掌握吧"},{"start":25492.18,"end":25494.18,"text":"這個我們也有在研究"},{"start":25494.18,"end":25495.18,"text":"其實跟委員說"},{"start":25495.18,"end":25497.18,"text":"今年7月1號開始"},{"start":25497.18,"end":25499.18,"text":"所有的這個"},{"start":25499.18,"end":25500.18,"text":"要稱為鮮乳的"},{"start":25500.18,"end":25503.18,"text":"它一定是要台灣的牛"},{"start":25503.18,"end":25505.18,"text":"牛奶才可以稱為鮮乳"},{"start":25505.18,"end":25507.18,"text":"其他都只能外國來的都"},{"start":25507.18,"end":25509.18,"text":"你到台灣來加工也沒有用"},{"start":25509.18,"end":25510.18,"text":"都只能稱為牛乳"},{"start":25510.18,"end":25511.18,"text":"所以有這種區別"},{"start":25511.18,"end":25513.18,"text":"這個我處理過我知道"},{"start":25513.18,"end":25514.18,"text":"而且那14天內"},{"start":25514.18,"end":25515.18,"text":"對"},{"start":25515.18,"end":25516.18,"text":"這個也處理很久"},{"start":25516.18,"end":25518.18,"text":"三個部會說整個部位就對了"},{"start":25518.18,"end":25519.18,"text":"對"},{"start":25519.18,"end":25521.18,"text":"所以未來我們也是朝這個方向來"},{"start":25521.18,"end":25524.18,"text":"凸顯這個在地的食材"},{"start":25524.18,"end":25528.18,"text":"那麼製造的原料跟它的食品"},{"start":25528.18,"end":25529.18,"text":"對啦所以部長用鮮乳"},{"start":25529.18,"end":25530.18,"text":"這事情來講"},{"start":25530.18,"end":25532.18,"text":"我想我在處理過程內"},{"start":25532.18,"end":25533.18,"text":"我非常清楚啦"},{"start":25533.18,"end":25534.18,"text":"然後用這樣的比喻"},{"start":25534.18,"end":25536.18,"text":"也很適切啦"},{"start":25536.18,"end":25538.18,"text":"所以其實這個是"},{"start":25538.18,"end":25540.18,"text":"很重要的食材問題啦"},{"start":25540.18,"end":25543.18,"text":"目前法規上不對原料來源"},{"start":25543.18,"end":25544.18,"text":"只要在台灣加工之後"},{"start":25544.18,"end":25545.18,"text":"就叫做台灣製造"},{"start":25546.52,"end":25548.52,"text":"那鮮乳部位就不可能了嘛"},{"start":25548.52,"end":25549.52,"text":"對不對"},{"start":25549.52,"end":25550.52,"text":"好"},{"start":25550.52,"end":25551.52,"text":"那對於台灣還有一個"},{"start":25551.52,"end":25552.52,"text":"有機也不可能啊"},{"start":25554.11,"end":25557.11,"text":"那對台灣長期經營的MIT的招牌"},{"start":25557.11,"end":25558.11,"text":"坦白講"},{"start":25558.11,"end":25559.11,"text":"如果這個不趕快去修"},{"start":25559.11,"end":25560.11,"text":"其實對台灣是不好的"},{"start":25560.11,"end":25562.11,"text":"對我們招牌是不好的嘛"},{"start":25562.11,"end":25564.11,"text":"所以有意要支持台灣本地的"},{"start":25564.11,"end":25565.11,"text":"農產品的民眾"},{"start":25565.11,"end":25567.11,"text":"他也是會非常混淆"},{"start":25567.11,"end":25571.11,"text":"所以對鮮乳種植的"},{"start":25571.11,"end":25573.11,"text":"這個原物料的農民來講"},{"start":25573.11,"end":25574.11,"text":"更是不公平"},{"start":25574.11,"end":25575.11,"text":"我有去盤點啦"},{"start":25575.11,"end":25577.11,"text":"就是諸如澳洲加拿大日本"},{"start":25577.11,"end":25579.11,"text":"南韓都有相關的規定"},{"start":25579.11,"end":25580.11,"text":"甚至於南韓細緻到"},{"start":25580.11,"end":25583.11,"text":"你知道前三大原料都要標明原料股"},{"start":25585.06,"end":25586.06,"text":"這個表格"},{"start":25586.06,"end":25587.06,"text":"部長簡單看一下"},{"start":25587.06,"end":25588.06,"text":"是個國家"},{"start":25588.06,"end":25593.06,"text":"那本次我們提案的這個版本中"},{"start":25593.06,"end":25594.06,"text":"第22條"},{"start":25594.06,"end":25596.06,"text":"就在響應公民團體之之活動"},{"start":25596.06,"end":25598.06,"text":"要求加工食品應標示"},{"start":25598.06,"end":25601.06,"text":"其主要食品原料之原產地"},{"start":25602.76,"end":25603.76,"text":"所以這次修法中"},{"start":25603.76,"end":25605.76,"text":"我要請部長 署長可以支持"},{"start":25605.76,"end":25606.76,"text":"也請委員會可以支持"},{"start":25606.76,"end":25608.76,"text":"我們一同保護MIT的招牌"},{"start":25608.76,"end":25610.76,"text":"照顧我們本土人民"},{"start":25610.76,"end":25612.76,"text":"也讓保障消費者執勤的權利"},{"start":25615.09,"end":25616.09,"text":"坦白講"},{"start":25616.09,"end":25618.09,"text":"我那天是有跟書上講"},{"start":25619.89,"end":25621.89,"text":"我覺得我們還是要加快腳步"},{"start":25622.25,"end":25624.25,"text":"不一定要等到我們現在"},{"start":25624.25,"end":25626.25,"text":"再處理這個修法的方式"},{"start":25626.25,"end":25628.25,"text":"這其實現在是可以做"},{"start":25628.25,"end":25630.25,"text":"台灣的有據這次要標示"},{"start":25631.47,"end":25633.47,"text":"台灣的有據就要直接標示了"},{"start":25633.47,"end":25635.47,"text":"用標示的要求"},{"start":25638.78,"end":25639.78,"text":"好嗎 時間到了"},{"start":25639.78,"end":25640.78,"text":"你先檢討一下"},{"start":25640.78,"end":25642.78,"text":"我希望是不是能在"},{"start":25642.78,"end":25643.78,"text":"那個辦法的修訂"},{"start":25643.78,"end":25644.78,"text":"下禮拜的公告"},{"start":25644.78,"end":25647.78,"text":"連這件事情也一併可以來解決"},{"start":25647.78,"end":25648.78,"text":"好"},{"start":25648.78,"end":25650.78,"text":"請部長跟署長"},{"start":25650.78,"end":25652.78,"text":"來 請出議議"},{"start":25655.7,"end":25656.7,"text":"好"},{"start":25656.7,"end":25658.7,"text":"接著請李坤城委員"},{"start":25666.94,"end":25667.94,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":25667.94,"end":25668.94,"text":"我們請部長"},{"start":25669.98,"end":25670.98,"text":"前市部長"},{"start":25673.44,"end":25674.44,"text":"李委員好"},{"start":25674.44,"end":25675.44,"text":"部長好 辛苦了"},{"start":25675.44,"end":25677.44,"text":"今天的這個專報"},{"start":25677.44,"end":25679.44,"text":"這個中央一昧的"},{"start":25679.44,"end":25681.44,"text":"蓋牌吃案當門神"},{"start":25681.44,"end":25683.44,"text":"這七個字其實應該"},{"start":25683.44,"end":25685.44,"text":"送還給盧秀燕"},{"start":25686.68,"end":25688.68,"text":"先射箭再畫吧"},{"start":25688.68,"end":25691.68,"text":"現在已經講說這個台唐有獅子等等之類的"},{"start":25692.13,"end":25694.13,"text":"這個其實就是盧秀燕他們"},{"start":25694.13,"end":25696.13,"text":"在推卸責任"},{"start":25696.13,"end":25698.13,"text":"這整件事情要通報的"},{"start":25698.63,"end":25699.63,"text":"其實是中聯"},{"start":25699.63,"end":25701.63,"text":"中聯是在台中"},{"start":25701.63,"end":25703.63,"text":"中聯應該去跟台中市政府通報"},{"start":25703.63,"end":25705.63,"text":"整件事情沒有通報的就是中聯"},{"start":25705.63,"end":25706.63,"text":"問題在中聯"},{"start":25706.63,"end":25707.63,"text":"問題在台中市政府"},{"start":25707.63,"end":25709.63,"text":"結果因為台唐的關係"},{"start":25709.63,"end":25710.63,"text":"它是國營事業"},{"start":25710.63,"end":25712.63,"text":"然後現在就發現說"},{"start":25712.63,"end":25714.63,"text":"台唐好像五月份就知道了"},{"start":25714.63,"end":25717.63,"text":"所以它現在就轉移焦點到台唐的身上"},{"start":25717.63,"end":25719.63,"text":"那我先請教一下部長好了"},{"start":25719.63,"end":25721.63,"text":"這個台唐在五月的時候"},{"start":25721.63,"end":25724.63,"text":"自主檢驗的時候發現了本評比鈔標"},{"start":25724.63,"end":25726.63,"text":"那這個本評比鈔標是"},{"start":25726.63,"end":25727.63,"text":"實際上是"},{"start":25727.63,"end":25728.63,"text":"實際上是審法規定"},{"start":25728.63,"end":25731.63,"text":"它這個原油有本評比鈔標"},{"start":25731.63,"end":25732.63,"text":"那就要退回呢"},{"start":25732.63,"end":25735.63,"text":"那還是說是這個台唐自己的規定"},{"start":25735.63,"end":25736.63,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":25736.63,"end":25740.63,"text":"我們現在所訂的本評比2.0PPB的標準"},{"start":25740.63,"end":25741.63,"text":"是實用油脂"},{"start":25741.63,"end":25744.63,"text":"也就是它的最終可食用的油"},{"start":25744.63,"end":25745.63,"text":"吃的油"},{"start":25745.63,"end":25746.63,"text":"對吃的油"},{"start":25746.63,"end":25750.63,"text":"那麼台唐去驗的是它要買的粗油"},{"start":25750.63,"end":25753.63,"text":"就是脫膠原油是粗油"},{"start":25753.63,"end":25756.63,"text":"所以那個是沒有訂本評比標準的"},{"start":25756.63,"end":25757.63,"text":"所以它對驗是根據"},{"start":25757.63,"end":25758.63,"text":"審法沒有規定"},{"start":25758.63,"end":25759.63,"text":"對沒有"},{"start":25759.63,"end":25760.63,"text":"相關的法律也都沒有規定"},{"start":25760.63,"end":25761.63,"text":"沒有"},{"start":25761.63,"end":25762.63,"text":"這是台唐自己規定的"},{"start":25762.63,"end":25763.63,"text":"對這是台唐自己的"},{"start":25763.63,"end":25765.63,"text":"採購的合約裡面的要求"},{"start":25765.63,"end":25766.63,"text":"我有看了"},{"start":25766.63,"end":25769.63,"text":"它是說這個是因為考量成本的關係"},{"start":25769.63,"end":25771.63,"text":"本評比在2以下的話"},{"start":25771.63,"end":25774.63,"text":"它後面的製程比較簡單"},{"start":25774.63,"end":25776.63,"text":"它只要控制溫度就好"},{"start":25776.63,"end":25778.63,"text":"因為溫度高起來還是會高起來"},{"start":25778.63,"end":25781.63,"text":"所以這就是台唐自己的一個規定"},{"start":25781.63,"end":25783.63,"text":"等於是內控成本的規定"},{"start":25783.63,"end":25786.63,"text":"所以現在法律上沒有任何的規定"},{"start":25786.63,"end":25791.63,"text":"就是說這個粗油本評比要在2以下"},{"start":25791.63,"end":25793.63,"text":"沒有我們是規定的是最終的產品"},{"start":25793.63,"end":25795.63,"text":"我們的食安法也是規定"},{"start":25795.63,"end":25797.63,"text":"我們的食安法都是規定是產品"},{"start":25797.63,"end":25799.63,"text":"就是我們吃的東西"},{"start":25799.63,"end":25800.63,"text":"第七條"},{"start":25800.63,"end":25803.63,"text":"那台唐買的這個粗油是不能吃的嗎"},{"start":25803.63,"end":25804.63,"text":"對不能吃"},{"start":25804.63,"end":25805.63,"text":"那所以"},{"start":25808,"end":25812,"text":"現在發現台唐發現說這個本評比"},{"start":25812,"end":25814,"text":"超標有問題特意去給中聯嘛"},{"start":25814,"end":25819,"text":"那這件事情就是說在5月份的這件事情上面"},{"start":25820.05,"end":25821.05,"text":"台唐要去跟誰同胞"},{"start":25823.25,"end":25826.25,"text":"因為他這個不是強制通報"},{"start":25826.25,"end":25827.25,"text":"所以他這個"},{"start":25827.25,"end":25828.25,"text":"現在的法令的規定"},{"start":25828.25,"end":25831.25,"text":"是沒有這個通報的義務"},{"start":25831.25,"end":25836.25,"text":"但是中聯知道這個檢驗出來有超標的情形"},{"start":25836.25,"end":25839.25,"text":"他也確實讓那一批就不動了"},{"start":25839.25,"end":25842.25,"text":"不做後續的這個鏈油"},{"start":25842.25,"end":25844.25,"text":"表示他已經知道"},{"start":25844.25,"end":25846.25,"text":"他可能在製程當中是"},{"start":25846.25,"end":25848.25,"text":"或者他的原料是有問題的"},{"start":25848.25,"end":25849.25,"text":"所以這個時候"},{"start":25849.25,"end":25852.25,"text":"他就應該要開始進行檢討"},{"start":25852.25,"end":25856.25,"text":"對於後續的製程要加強檢驗"},{"start":25856.25,"end":25859.25,"text":"那所以這個是個灰色地帶了"},{"start":25859.25,"end":25861.25,"text":"就是中聯他被退貨了"},{"start":25861.25,"end":25863.25,"text":"那他也知道說這個本評比有問題的"},{"start":25863.25,"end":25865.25,"text":"那如果他拿這個東西再去製油"},{"start":25865.25,"end":25867.25,"text":"那當然就會有問題"},{"start":25867.25,"end":25870.25,"text":"可是在這個粗油的這個階段"},{"start":25871.13,"end":25873.13,"text":"那他按規定他有要去通報嗎"},{"start":25873.98,"end":25874.98,"text":"是沒有"},{"start":25874.98,"end":25875.98,"text":"也沒有"},{"start":25875.98,"end":25877.98,"text":"所以這就是一個灰色地帶"},{"start":25877.98,"end":25879.98,"text":"那所以在實驗法修法的時候"},{"start":25879.98,"end":25881.98,"text":"這部分會把它加進去嗎"},{"start":25881.98,"end":25882.98,"text":"如果他不是產品"},{"start":25882.98,"end":25884.98,"text":"因為我們現在是規定產品"},{"start":25884.98,"end":25887.98,"text":"那現在就是說如果是他的上油"},{"start":25887.98,"end":25890.98,"text":"就是粗油發現問題的時候"},{"start":25890.98,"end":25891.98,"text":"有這個通報的機制嗎"},{"start":25891.98,"end":25893.98,"text":"在我們行政院版本裡面"},{"start":25893.98,"end":25896.98,"text":"有特別在第七條把它寫進來"},{"start":25896.98,"end":25898.98,"text":"包含原料、半成品跟成品"},{"start":25898.98,"end":25900.98,"text":"不過這個後面到底是不是全部"},{"start":25900.98,"end":25903.98,"text":"我們還是會根據風險去分級的"},{"start":25903.98,"end":25904.98,"text":"不然也會通報"},{"start":25906.91,"end":25908.91,"text":"因為很多的原料"},{"start":25908.91,"end":25912.91,"text":"我們並沒有特別去訂那個檢驗標準"},{"start":25912.91,"end":25913.91,"text":"另外還要看到那個檢驗"},{"start":25913.91,"end":25915.91,"text":"因為原料跟那個成品"},{"start":25915.91,"end":25917.91,"text":"有時候樣態是差很遠的"},{"start":25917.91,"end":25919.91,"text":"這個是黃豆變成油"},{"start":25919.91,"end":25923.91,"text":"那還有更多到最後可能形態都不一樣的"},{"start":25923.91,"end":25925.91,"text":"那個粗油除了來當變成油脂之外"},{"start":25925.91,"end":25926.91,"text":"還可以變成什麼"},{"start":25926.91,"end":25928.91,"text":"它可以做工業的潤滑油"},{"start":25928.91,"end":25930.91,"text":"它可以去做肥皂"},{"start":25930.91,"end":25932.91,"text":"所以不一定最後是人吃的水油油嗎"},{"start":25932.91,"end":25933.91,"text":"對"},{"start":25933.91,"end":25936.91,"text":"所以他們也交給南亞塑膠"},{"start":25936.91,"end":25939.91,"text":"他們會去在塑膠上製程上去使用"},{"start":25939.91,"end":25946.91,"text":"那現在有這個主任檢察官陳檢察官"},{"start":25946.91,"end":25949.91,"text":"他有講說台黨有通報的義務"},{"start":25950.71,"end":25954.71,"text":"那我就想說台黨通報的義務的法律規定在哪裡"},{"start":25956.57,"end":25959.57,"text":"因為目前我們前一段說話都沒有"},{"start":25959.57,"end":25960.57,"text":"就是說它是"},{"start":25962.17,"end":25966.17,"text":"這個粗油就是它不是產品的這一部分"},{"start":25966.61,"end":25968.61,"text":"它有通報的義務嗎"},{"start":25968.72,"end":25970.72,"text":"因為他現在他講這句話"},{"start":25970.72,"end":25971.72,"text":"在台黨一直拿這句話在"},{"start":25972.55,"end":25974.55,"text":"就是說台黨有通報義務"},{"start":25974.55,"end":25975.55,"text":"那台黨為什麼不通報"},{"start":25976.19,"end":25978.19,"text":"那可是剛剛跟部長討論的過程當中"},{"start":25978.19,"end":25981.19,"text":"台黨的確在目前的這個法律規定上面"},{"start":25981.81,"end":25983.81,"text":"台黨是沒有通報的義務"},{"start":25985.07,"end":25987.07,"text":"就是大家都會期待"},{"start":25987.07,"end":25991.07,"text":"那麼國營事業要盡更多的社會責任"},{"start":25991.07,"end":25993.07,"text":"這個期待我們大家都可以理解"},{"start":25993.07,"end":25996.07,"text":"但是回到這個裁罰的時候"},{"start":25996.07,"end":25998.07,"text":"我們還是得依法論法"},{"start":25998.07,"end":25999.07,"text":"對 就依法論法"},{"start":25999.07,"end":26000.07,"text":"對 就依法論法"},{"start":26000.07,"end":26005.07,"text":"那所以台黨到目前為止有受到任何的裁罰嗎"},{"start":26005.65,"end":26007.65,"text":"目前據我了解是沒有"},{"start":26007.65,"end":26009.65,"text":"沒有 因為他沒有違反任何的規定"},{"start":26009.65,"end":26011.65,"text":"對 這個地方政府也去了解"},{"start":26011.65,"end":26013.65,"text":"但是因為他是國營事業"},{"start":26013.65,"end":26014.65,"text":"我們希望說"},{"start":26015.02,"end":26017.02,"text":"他如果知道有問題的趕快去講"},{"start":26017.02,"end":26019.02,"text":"大概目前就是道德上面的"},{"start":26019.02,"end":26022.02,"text":"道德上面的一個責任"},{"start":26022.02,"end":26024.02,"text":"他應該去知道說有問題的"},{"start":26024.02,"end":26026.02,"text":"他可能要去講"},{"start":26026.02,"end":26028.02,"text":"這當然是我們從後面往前推"},{"start":26028.02,"end":26030.02,"text":"這個是後見知名"},{"start":26030.02,"end":26033.02,"text":"以當時候要他去判斷說"},{"start":26033.02,"end":26036.02,"text":"這個到底這個風險有多少"},{"start":26036.02,"end":26039.02,"text":"確實很多時候我們的事後諸葛"},{"start":26039.02,"end":26042.02,"text":"都是會課於比較高的期待或要求"},{"start":26042.02,"end":26044.02,"text":"對 所以說目前的修法就是"},{"start":26044.02,"end":26045.02,"text":"把這個原料這部分"},{"start":26045.02,"end":26047.02,"text":"就把它納進去"},{"start":26047.02,"end":26049.02,"text":"對 所以其實這件事情"},{"start":26049.02,"end":26050.02,"text":"你說台黨他的責任"},{"start":26050.02,"end":26052.02,"text":"他沒有法律上的責任"},{"start":26052.02,"end":26054.02,"text":"目前還在實行法律規定"},{"start":26054.02,"end":26055.02,"text":"他的確是沒有"},{"start":26055.02,"end":26056.02,"text":"但是我們只是說"},{"start":26056.02,"end":26057.02,"text":"他現在被當作健保"},{"start":26057.02,"end":26059.02,"text":"是因為他是國營事業"},{"start":26059.02,"end":26060.02,"text":"被當作國營事業就是說"},{"start":26060.02,"end":26061.02,"text":"你國營事業知道了"},{"start":26061.02,"end":26062.02,"text":"為什麼不通報"},{"start":26062.02,"end":26063.02,"text":"但是我要講"},{"start":26063.02,"end":26064.02,"text":"他通報的是中聯"},{"start":26064.57,"end":26067.57,"text":"做成有問題的產品是中聯"},{"start":26068.29,"end":26071.29,"text":"中聯應該要去台中市政府通報"},{"start":26071.29,"end":26072.29,"text":"他沒有通報"},{"start":26072.29,"end":26074.29,"text":"他的案子也跟南僑不一樣"},{"start":26074.29,"end":26076.29,"text":"因為南僑是產品"},{"start":26076.29,"end":26078.29,"text":"是不一樣的東西"},{"start":26078.29,"end":26081.29,"text":"但是現在在來黨全部把他搞在一起"},{"start":26081.29,"end":26084.29,"text":"就是說反正你為什麼南僑"},{"start":26084.29,"end":26086.29,"text":"這個沒有通報的受罰"},{"start":26086.29,"end":26088.29,"text":"為什麼台黨這個沒有通報"},{"start":26088.29,"end":26089.29,"text":"好像沒有事情"},{"start":26089.29,"end":26091.29,"text":"回頭說發現說5月份"},{"start":26091.29,"end":26093.29,"text":"5月份好像比這個"},{"start":26093.29,"end":26094.29,"text":"中聯最後被發現"},{"start":26094.29,"end":26095.29,"text":"6月底時間還早"},{"start":26095.29,"end":26096.29,"text":"他們就轉移焦點了"},{"start":26096.29,"end":26097.29,"text":"就轉到這邊去"},{"start":26097.29,"end":26099.29,"text":"這政治的動作其實大家都知道"},{"start":26099.29,"end":26100.29,"text":"其實大家都知道"},{"start":26100.29,"end":26101.29,"text":"但是你們要講得更清楚"},{"start":26101.29,"end":26103.29,"text":"只是說台黨在這件事情上面"},{"start":26103.29,"end":26105.29,"text":"我認為是吃人們虧"},{"start":26106.15,"end":26107.15,"text":"因為他是國營事業"},{"start":26107.15,"end":26108.15,"text":"他是人們虧"},{"start":26108.15,"end":26109.15,"text":"但是我希望說"},{"start":26109.15,"end":26110.15,"text":"因為今天本來是要修法"},{"start":26110.15,"end":26112.15,"text":"臨時加入這個專報"},{"start":26112.15,"end":26114.15,"text":"就整個修法又延後了"},{"start":26114.15,"end":26115.15,"text":"我們希望說"},{"start":26115.15,"end":26117.15,"text":"把該補的洞補起來"},{"start":26117.15,"end":26119.15,"text":"我想這才是大家所樂見的"},{"start":26119.15,"end":26121.15,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":26121.15,"end":26122.15,"text":"謝謝國營的指教"},{"start":26125.06,"end":26127.06,"text":"好 謝謝李昆辰委員"},{"start":26127.06,"end":26129.06,"text":"接著請陳英委員"},{"start":26131.22,"end":26132.22,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26137.57,"end":26138.57,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":26138.57,"end":26140.57,"text":"那我們請"},{"start":26141.19,"end":26144.19,"text":"今天很辛苦的我們的衛福部部長"},{"start":26144.19,"end":26146.19,"text":"跟食藥署署長"},{"start":26146.98,"end":26148.98,"text":"請部長跟署長"},{"start":26151.35,"end":26152.35,"text":"陳也好"},{"start":26152.35,"end":26154.35,"text":"兩位也好"},{"start":26154.35,"end":26157.35,"text":"我們今天討論的這個食安法第七條"},{"start":26157.35,"end":26159.35,"text":"通報的這個責任"},{"start":26159.35,"end":26161.35,"text":"首先我想要請教部長的是"},{"start":26161.35,"end":26164.35,"text":"在這裡面第五項的食品業者"},{"start":26164.35,"end":26168.35,"text":"發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時"},{"start":26168.35,"end":26170.35,"text":"應即主動停止製造"},{"start":26170.35,"end":26172.35,"text":"加工販賣及辦理回收"},{"start":26172.35,"end":26176.35,"text":"並通報直轄縣市主管機關"},{"start":26176.35,"end":26179.35,"text":"那是不是已經很清楚規範"},{"start":26179.35,"end":26180.35,"text":"食品業者在發現產品"},{"start":26180.35,"end":26182.35,"text":"有問題的時候"},{"start":26182.35,"end":26184.35,"text":"應該通報地方主管機關對不對"},{"start":26184.35,"end":26185.35,"text":"對"},{"start":26185.8,"end":26188.8,"text":"因為在這個發現之後"},{"start":26188.8,"end":26189.8,"text":"除了通報"},{"start":26189.8,"end":26192.8,"text":"更重要的是應該要立即主動停止"},{"start":26192.8,"end":26195.8,"text":"製造加工販賣及辦理回收"},{"start":26195.8,"end":26196.8,"text":"對"},{"start":26196.8,"end":26198.8,"text":"但是這個食品業者"},{"start":26198.8,"end":26201.8,"text":"根據食安法的第三條的定義"},{"start":26201.8,"end":26203.8,"text":"所以這裡面的食品業"},{"start":26203.8,"end":26205.8,"text":"我們看一下就包括了"},{"start":26205.8,"end":26208.8,"text":"從事食品或食品添加物"},{"start":26208.8,"end":26210.8,"text":"製造加工調配包裝運送儲存"},{"start":26210.8,"end":26212.8,"text":"販賣運輸輸出等等"},{"start":26212.8,"end":26215.8,"text":"很多的不同分工的業者"},{"start":26215.8,"end":26216.8,"text":"那這樣子的話"},{"start":26216.8,"end":26218.8,"text":"有很多的業者"},{"start":26218.8,"end":26219.8,"text":"其實嚴格說起來"},{"start":26219.8,"end":26224.8,"text":"他們並不具備有發現危害之虞的能力"},{"start":26224.8,"end":26226.8,"text":"這能力上看起來是不同的"},{"start":26228.78,"end":26230.78,"text":"到底就是說什麼樣的食品業者"},{"start":26230.78,"end":26232.78,"text":"在這個食安法裡面"},{"start":26232.78,"end":26234.78,"text":"是有責任通報的呢"},{"start":26235.32,"end":26236.32,"text":"部長"},{"start":26238.36,"end":26242.36,"text":"就是這個食品業者的範圍很大"},{"start":26242.36,"end":26244.36,"text":"剛剛提到的"},{"start":26244.36,"end":26246.36,"text":"甚至到下端的食品販售業"},{"start":26246.36,"end":26249.36,"text":"都會被納入是食品業者"},{"start":26249.36,"end":26252.36,"text":"那麼因此我們在這個要求的通報上"},{"start":26252.36,"end":26254.36,"text":"當然有不同的義務"},{"start":26254.36,"end":26255.36,"text":"那麼譬如說他有發現是"},{"start":26255.36,"end":26257.36,"text":"不應該有的雜質"},{"start":26257.36,"end":26259.36,"text":"他這個是目視可發現的"},{"start":26259.36,"end":26261.36,"text":"他也可以有通報的義務"},{"start":26261.36,"end":26264.36,"text":"那有些是需要靠檢驗"},{"start":26264.36,"end":26265.36,"text":"才能夠驗得出"},{"start":26265.36,"end":26267.36,"text":"他有沒有健康危害之虞"},{"start":26267.36,"end":26268.36,"text":"所以他就"},{"start":26268.36,"end":26272.36,"text":"大家每個業者的能力是不一樣"},{"start":26274.76,"end":26275.76,"text":"本席認為"},{"start":26275.76,"end":26278.76,"text":"就這個通報義務"},{"start":26278.76,"end":26280.76,"text":"應該就是說根據"},{"start":26280.76,"end":26283.76,"text":"就是說以業者的這個能力及這個責任"},{"start":26283.76,"end":26285.76,"text":"要相匹配"},{"start":26285.76,"end":26289.76,"text":"那課與這個各級業者通報的義務"},{"start":26289.76,"end":26290.76,"text":"應該就是說"},{"start":26290.76,"end":26292.76,"text":"因以這個業者"},{"start":26292.76,"end":26295.76,"text":"他是否具備有相對的能力責任"},{"start":26295.76,"end":26297.76,"text":"來做一個判斷的基準"},{"start":26297.76,"end":26300.76,"text":"那凡是生產自由品牌的產品呢"},{"start":26300.76,"end":26304.76,"text":"或者是這個從事生產加工調配"},{"start":26304.76,"end":26306.76,"text":"以及這個在製造的業者呢"},{"start":26306.76,"end":26308.76,"text":"都應該對這個產品安全"},{"start":26308.76,"end":26311.76,"text":"及這個社會大眾要負起責任"},{"start":26311.76,"end":26312.76,"text":"這些業者呢"},{"start":26312.76,"end":26316.76,"text":"他具有發現產品危害的能力"},{"start":26316.76,"end":26319.76,"text":"那也有這個檢測及確保產品安全"},{"start":26319.76,"end":26321.76,"text":"衛生的這個責任"},{"start":26321.76,"end":26322.76,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":26322.76,"end":26324.76,"text":"本席在這裡是主張"},{"start":26324.76,"end":26326.76,"text":"那這一類的業者"},{"start":26326.76,"end":26327.76,"text":"我們都應該把他納入"},{"start":26327.76,"end":26330.76,"text":"法定通報義務人的範圍嘛"},{"start":26330.76,"end":26334.76,"text":"那這個我想這個大家都是有共識的"},{"start":26334.76,"end":26337.76,"text":"如果說部長也認同的話"},{"start":26337.76,"end":26340.76,"text":"那麼在後續修法的部分"},{"start":26340.76,"end":26342.76,"text":"就應該要好好的來釐清說"},{"start":26342.76,"end":26345.76,"text":"通報的這個責任義務人"},{"start":26345.76,"end":26347.76,"text":"那現行的規定呢"},{"start":26347.76,"end":26350.76,"text":"其實存有很大的這個模糊空間"},{"start":26350.76,"end":26353.76,"text":"這也是這一次的這個遊品事件"},{"start":26353.76,"end":26354.76,"text":"產生爭議的地方"},{"start":26354.76,"end":26356.76,"text":"那我們回到"},{"start":26356.76,"end":26358.76,"text":"問題一點喔"},{"start":26358.76,"end":26361.76,"text":"目前對於這個加工跟調配的食品業者"},{"start":26361.76,"end":26363.76,"text":"例如台糖"},{"start":26363.76,"end":26366.76,"text":"是不是都需要從這個上游的這個原味料"},{"start":26366.76,"end":26368.76,"text":"來進行檢測呢"},{"start":26370.02,"end":26373.02,"text":"我們會有不同的要求"},{"start":26373.02,"end":26376.02,"text":"因為有些原料我們並沒有"},{"start":26376.02,"end":26378.02,"text":"訂這個安全衛生標準出來"},{"start":26378.02,"end":26380.02,"text":"也就是說他也沒有特別的檢驗方法啦"},{"start":26380.02,"end":26384.02,"text":"那有一些呢我們是不得添加"},{"start":26384.02,"end":26386.02,"text":"就是這些是完全是不合法的"},{"start":26386.02,"end":26388.02,"text":"那一種的話"},{"start":26388.02,"end":26392.02,"text":"那就需要有這個製程上的把關的要求"},{"start":26392.02,"end":26394.02,"text":"好這樣目前聽起來是"},{"start":26394.02,"end":26395.02,"text":"就"},{"start":26395.59,"end":26397.59,"text":"沒有很統一啦"},{"start":26397.59,"end":26398.59,"text":"沒有很統一"},{"start":26398.59,"end":26399.59,"text":"對那我"},{"start":26399.59,"end":26401.59,"text":"不同類別是不一樣"},{"start":26401.59,"end":26405.59,"text":"好我換一個方式來說啦來問"},{"start":26405.59,"end":26408.59,"text":"那我可不可以我不檢測"},{"start":26408.59,"end":26410.59,"text":"然後因為我沒有發現"},{"start":26410.59,"end":26412.59,"text":"所以就沒有通報責任了"},{"start":26412.59,"end":26415.59,"text":"例如這一次的這個台糖的事件"},{"start":26415.59,"end":26417.59,"text":"如果他不檢測"},{"start":26417.59,"end":26418.59,"text":"他就沒有發現"},{"start":26418.59,"end":26420.59,"text":"然後就不會上媒體"},{"start":26420.59,"end":26423.59,"text":"然後他也沒有這個後續的這些"},{"start":26423.59,"end":26425.59,"text":"因為他不測他也沒有違法嘛"},{"start":26425.59,"end":26427.59,"text":"是這樣子吧"},{"start":26428.96,"end":26429.96,"text":"反而就是說"},{"start":26429.96,"end":26431.96,"text":"今天他自己檢測了"},{"start":26432.59,"end":26434.59,"text":"然後他發現"},{"start":26434.84,"end":26436.84,"text":"然後他自己封存"},{"start":26436.84,"end":26437.84,"text":"他停止製造"},{"start":26437.84,"end":26438.84,"text":"但是他沒有通報"},{"start":26438.84,"end":26440.84,"text":"他反而有事了"},{"start":26440.84,"end":26442.84,"text":"那如果以這個台糖做為案例的話"},{"start":26442.84,"end":26446.84,"text":"看起來好像是變相在鼓勵未來類似的"},{"start":26446.84,"end":26448.84,"text":"像有廠商都不要去檢測"},{"start":26448.84,"end":26450.84,"text":"就不會遇到問題"},{"start":26450.84,"end":26454.84,"text":"好這個就是我們目前法規上最大的一個漏洞嘛"},{"start":26454.84,"end":26456.84,"text":"好部長你才同意吧"},{"start":26456.84,"end":26461.84,"text":"對就是說檢測應該也是分成兩種啦"},{"start":26461.84,"end":26464.84,"text":"一種是我們是強制要求的這種檢測"},{"start":26464.84,"end":26466.84,"text":"有一些是他自主"},{"start":26466.84,"end":26468.84,"text":"為了要更好的品質"},{"start":26468.84,"end":26470.84,"text":"或者是安全的管控"},{"start":26470.84,"end":26471.84,"text":"他自己訂的檢測"},{"start":26471.84,"end":26475.84,"text":"對那所以其實台糖在這次的事件當中"},{"start":26475.84,"end":26477.84,"text":"他就錯在自己有檢測嘛"},{"start":26477.84,"end":26479.84,"text":"還惹來後面這些麻煩嘛"},{"start":26479.84,"end":26482.84,"text":"那所以另外的一個問題喔"},{"start":26482.84,"end":26487.84,"text":"就是說生產的這個廠房喔"},{"start":26487.84,"end":26489.84,"text":"在A縣市"},{"start":26489.84,"end":26491.84,"text":"那總公司在B縣市"},{"start":26491.84,"end":26495.84,"text":"那到底應該是要向哪一個地方主管機關來通報"},{"start":26498.19,"end":26499.19,"text":"跟總公司"},{"start":26499.19,"end":26501.19,"text":"因為我們有規定要登錄的"},{"start":26501.19,"end":26506.19,"text":"他就是根據他這個廠登錄的地方的那個縣市"},{"start":26506.19,"end":26507.19,"text":"小管縣市"},{"start":26507.19,"end":26508.19,"text":"廠登錄的地方"},{"start":26508.19,"end":26511.19,"text":"就未必是生產的那個廠房"},{"start":26511.19,"end":26513.19,"text":"就是只要那個廠"},{"start":26513.19,"end":26514.19,"text":"那個製造廠"},{"start":26514.19,"end":26517.19,"text":"比如說他這次是在高雄小港嘛"},{"start":26517.19,"end":26520.19,"text":"所以他就是登錄在高雄"},{"start":26520.19,"end":26522.19,"text":"好那我們這個"},{"start":26522.19,"end":26525.19,"text":"就是地方主管機關接獲通報之後"},{"start":26525.19,"end":26527.19,"text":"那標準的處理程序是什麼"},{"start":26528.78,"end":26530.78,"text":"他就要介入調查"},{"start":26531.24,"end":26533.24,"text":"他就是如果他通報了"},{"start":26533.24,"end":26535.24,"text":"那那個地方主管"},{"start":26535.24,"end":26539.24,"text":"比如說假設是台糖他通報"},{"start":26539.24,"end":26543.24,"text":"通報當然是給他的這個縣市主管機關就是高雄"},{"start":26543.24,"end":26547.24,"text":"可是他會發現說這個貨又不在台糖"},{"start":26547.24,"end":26550.24,"text":"那自然他就會變成是台中要去處理"},{"start":26550.24,"end":26555.24,"text":"所以社交署有建立一個統一的SOP"},{"start":26555.91,"end":26556.91,"text":"統一的SOP"},{"start":26556.91,"end":26558.91,"text":"那因為但是我們會遇到一個問題"},{"start":26558.91,"end":26561.91,"text":"就比如說像這個虎茶油"},{"start":26561.91,"end":26565.91,"text":"虎茶油是在這個新北燕道"},{"start":26565.91,"end":26567.91,"text":"他的後市場抽燕道"},{"start":26567.91,"end":26569.91,"text":"可是燕道之後他發現說"},{"start":26569.91,"end":26572.91,"text":"雖然公司這個東西的公司"},{"start":26572.91,"end":26575.91,"text":"這個產品的公司是登記在新北"},{"start":26575.91,"end":26579.91,"text":"可是他的製造廠他是在嘉義"},{"start":26579.91,"end":26585.91,"text":"那就會通報給嘉義縣衛生局去做這個調查"},{"start":26585.91,"end":26592.91,"text":"好那因為每一個地方的這個政府的人力跟資源都不一樣"},{"start":26592.91,"end":26595.91,"text":"所以可能在執行起來的時候"},{"start":26595.91,"end":26600.91,"text":"他可能有些地方他困難度比較高"},{"start":26600.91,"end":26602.91,"text":"那會人手不足等等"},{"start":26602.91,"end":26604.91,"text":"那食藥署你們有沒有什麼因應的對策"},{"start":26604.91,"end":26607.91,"text":"這一題我上次有大概有稍微提到"},{"start":26609.61,"end":26613.61,"text":"當然我們現在盡可能的去協助大家"},{"start":26613.61,"end":26617.61,"text":"那麼這個把它盡量這個自動化或者是簡化"},{"start":26617.61,"end":26624.61,"text":"不過呢這個人力的編制還是在地方去編制出來的"},{"start":26624.61,"end":26629.61,"text":"所以這個也希望這個各地方政府的首長"},{"start":26629.61,"end":26634.61,"text":"也能夠依據他在地的這個食品廠"},{"start":26634.61,"end":26638.61,"text":"這食品廠因為每個縣市的加速也都不一樣"},{"start":26638.61,"end":26644.61,"text":"他實際需要轄管的這個業別跟風險程度去編足足夠的人力"},{"start":26644.61,"end":26647.61,"text":"那如果就是萬一有遇到一些特殊狀況"},{"start":26647.61,"end":26650.61,"text":"地方政府無法因應的時候"},{"start":26650.61,"end":26654.61,"text":"中央是否會介入人力的本體資源上的支援"},{"start":26654.61,"end":26658.61,"text":"對我們像這一次我們的中區區管"},{"start":26658.61,"end":26664.61,"text":"我們食藥署的中區區管也都全力的去投入這一個事件的處理"},{"start":26664.61,"end":26667.61,"text":"好那再最後一點我想要請教江署長"},{"start":26667.61,"end":26670.61,"text":"就是你們現在的這個硬體設備跟以前"},{"start":26670.61,"end":26675.61,"text":"早期我們在發現那個說話機的時代應該有很大的進步"},{"start":26675.61,"end":26682.61,"text":"但是人才才是最重要的一個其中一個因素"},{"start":26682.61,"end":26688.61,"text":"那現在你們的這個檢測專業人員是否就是有很充分嗎"},{"start":26688.61,"end":26691.61,"text":"還是很充足還是全"},{"start":26691.61,"end":26693.61,"text":"報告委員這一次我們扁平皮"},{"start":26693.61,"end":26698.61,"text":"扁平皮因為希望能夠一週內能夠達成檢驗能夠確立下來"},{"start":26698.61,"end":26704.61,"text":"讓國人能夠釐清也讓所有的預防性下架後來能夠順利的能夠再清上架"},{"start":26704.61,"end":26709.61,"text":"我們一個禮拜裡面驗了幾百個檢體"},{"start":26709.61,"end":26712.61,"text":"講明白一點就是用了洪荒之力"},{"start":26712.61,"end":26714.61,"text":"同仁們其實是"},{"start":26714.61,"end":26718.61,"text":"所以你這樣你是說檢測專業人員是充足嗎"},{"start":26718.61,"end":26720.61,"text":"是這個是非常非常實際困難的"},{"start":26720.61,"end":26722.61,"text":"洪荒之力就有夠了是嗎"},{"start":26722.61,"end":26724.61,"text":"不足的不足的"},{"start":26724.61,"end":26726.61,"text":"不足的真的是不足的"},{"start":26726.82,"end":26730.82,"text":"因為我的問題還蠻簡單你講完以後我就有點聽不懂"},{"start":26730.82,"end":26738.82,"text":"那好現在這個高考分發可以引進這個具有這個專業能力的各位人員嗎"},{"start":26740.21,"end":26742.21,"text":"現在他們是在高考的"},{"start":26742.21,"end":26746.21,"text":"各種不同的專業的技術人員"},{"start":26746.21,"end":26748.21,"text":"所以是可以引進嗎"},{"start":26748.21,"end":26750.21,"text":"沒有特別一類"},{"start":26750.21,"end":26752.21,"text":"對不是特別的一類"},{"start":26752.21,"end":26755.21,"text":"都是衛生技術"},{"start":26755.21,"end":26757.21,"text":"對衛生技術它是歸在衛生技術之類"},{"start":26757.21,"end":26762.21,"text":"但是這個背景上我們還是有不同的背景會考上"},{"start":26762.21,"end":26764.21,"text":"所以進來的時候當然他們申請分發"},{"start":26764.21,"end":26766.21,"text":"進來也要再執訓練"},{"start":26766.21,"end":26768.21,"text":"所以目前就是說"},{"start":26768.21,"end":26770.21,"text":"不容易培養"},{"start":26770.21,"end":26776.21,"text":"我們這個具有專業能力的專職的公務員跟約聘僱員比例大概多少"},{"start":26777.96,"end":26779.96,"text":"有掌握嗎"},{"start":26779.37,"end":26783.37,"text":"大概現在利用約聘僱員比例其實是逐年的增加"},{"start":26783.37,"end":26785.37,"text":"所以公務人員比例占比"},{"start":26785.37,"end":26789.37,"text":"因為業務量一直增加公務員員額是限制住的"},{"start":26789.37,"end":26791.37,"text":"所以目前大概大概是大概"},{"start":26791.37,"end":26795.37,"text":"之前是大概1比1現在大概4比6左右的公務人員就變少"},{"start":26795.37,"end":26798.37,"text":"甚至是3比7的一個程度"},{"start":26798.37,"end":26801.37,"text":"OK好大概七成嘛現在"},{"start":26801.37,"end":26803.37,"text":"好那"},{"start":26804.33,"end":26809.33,"text":"那這個地方政府的技術問題有時候是很需要中央的支援"},{"start":26809.33,"end":26814.33,"text":"那食藥署就是說你們目前是怎麼跟地方政府合作"},{"start":26814.33,"end":26816.33,"text":"然後可以提供的支援是什麼"},{"start":26817.51,"end":26822.51,"text":"跟委員說明當然我們一方面會有這些訓練"},{"start":26822.51,"end":26826.51,"text":"讓這個地方的稽查人員具備這個稽查的能力"},{"start":26826.51,"end":26831.51,"text":"那第二個對一些特殊的檢驗我們也由食藥署來支援"},{"start":26831.51,"end":26837.51,"text":"譬如說在前年113年我們進行油品的查核要驗這個本篇比的時候"},{"start":26837.51,"end":26839.51,"text":"就是我們食藥署來支援"},{"start":26839.51,"end":26843.51,"text":"因為不見得這個地方政府能夠驗"},{"start":26843.51,"end":26845.51,"text":"所以我們就會去支援這個驗的能力"},{"start":26845.51,"end":26848.51,"text":"好謝謝那最後我們討論一下就是"},{"start":26848.51,"end":26852.51,"text":"因為目前我們按照這個食安法來看"},{"start":26852.51,"end":26856.51,"text":"好像是應該是我們目前就食品就有"},{"start":26856.51,"end":26859.51,"text":"等於不是食品就是說我目前"},{"start":26859.51,"end":26863.51,"text":"很多產品是先流通販售後再檢測"},{"start":26863.51,"end":26865.51,"text":"然後有問題再通報"},{"start":26867.38,"end":26869.38,"text":"看起來是這樣"},{"start":26869.38,"end":26873.38,"text":"那就是我們意思就是我們要自己先人體"},{"start":26873.38,"end":26875.38,"text":"先市面上人體試驗"},{"start":26875.38,"end":26879.38,"text":"那這樣子的話一旦確認就是有危害的話"},{"start":26879.38,"end":26885.38,"text":"然後再要去就是說回收下架可能都已經來不及了"},{"start":26885.38,"end":26891.38,"text":"那講到我想就是說講到這邊"},{"start":26891.38,"end":26897.38,"text":"我其實我不禁要想到就是說要大力誇讚一下"},{"start":26897.38,"end":26899.38,"text":"我們的這個醬油業者"},{"start":26899.38,"end":26903.38,"text":"因為多年來我們這個醬油業者"},{"start":26903.38,"end":26908.38,"text":"是受到這個監察院某助理的給你們食藥署很大的壓力"},{"start":26908.38,"end":26910.38,"text":"像立法委員一樣"},{"start":26910.38,"end":26914.38,"text":"那每年都要求這個醬油業者"},{"start":26914.38,"end":26916.38,"text":"要進行專案的檢查"},{"start":26917.34,"end":26921.34,"text":"只有醬油有這種特殊待遇其他都沒有"},{"start":26921.34,"end":26925.34,"text":"所以同樣的都有個油字"},{"start":26925.34,"end":26928.34,"text":"這兩個命運大不同標準也大不同"},{"start":26928.34,"end":26933.34,"text":"所以一個是醬油是嚴苛到這個國內業者快生存不下去"},{"start":26933.34,"end":26936.34,"text":"那另外一種油卻是鬆散無比"},{"start":26936.34,"end":26940.34,"text":"所以你們是嚴重的雙標可能也是被迫"},{"start":26940.34,"end":26945.34,"text":"但是我想這個過度以及不足都不好"},{"start":26945.34,"end":26953.34,"text":"所以我想事後不論就是說你們要如何的這個重罰"},{"start":26953.34,"end":26956.34,"text":"都比不上這個影響人民的健康"},{"start":26956.34,"end":26962.34,"text":"那這個後續修法就是說你們有沒有要處理這個問題"},{"start":26962.34,"end":26966.34,"text":"然後讓這個產品確定就是說危害無虞才能上市"},{"start":26966.34,"end":26970.34,"text":"而不是現在說我們發現有危害了"},{"start":26970.34,"end":26972.34,"text":"或者有危害之虞了"},{"start":26972.34,"end":26975.34,"text":"然後大家再來說我們停止不得販售"},{"start":26975.34,"end":26981.34,"text":"因為發現需要時間確認危害之虞也需要時間"},{"start":26981.34,"end":26988.34,"text":"那這個時間全部加起來都是這個法律漏洞影響人民的健康"},{"start":26988.34,"end":26994.34,"text":"對也跟委員說明就是說一直靠外部的稽查這個資源也是有限"},{"start":26994.34,"end":26997.34,"text":"所以也必須要照風險去做管理"},{"start":26997.34,"end":27000.34,"text":"所以重要的是在一級跟二級品管"},{"start":27000.34,"end":27004.34,"text":"所以一級品管的部分如何去強化我們這次修法會修進去"},{"start":27004.34,"end":27007.34,"text":"他的檢驗的能力要自己提升"},{"start":27007.34,"end":27012.34,"text":"而且這個檢驗的單位要經過主管機關認證"},{"start":27012.34,"end":27016.34,"text":"然後未來他的檢驗結果也要跟我們去上傳"},{"start":27016.34,"end":27024.34,"text":"這樣才能夠去強化這個內部的自主檢驗連結上外部的這個勾機"},{"start":27024.34,"end":27027.34,"text":"那二級品管的部分也要去強化"},{"start":27027.34,"end":27031.34,"text":"這些都是在避免說等到變成產品之後才發現問題"},{"start":27031.34,"end":27036.34,"text":"所以一級二級品管重點都是在前面前端的預防"},{"start":27036.34,"end":27041.34,"text":"所以我想今天很一個很重要的重點就是說"},{"start":27041.34,"end":27047.34,"text":"也是很諷刺的事情就是因為台糖自己自己先驗了發現問題"},{"start":27047.34,"end":27050.34,"text":"然後結果反而到底我們要怎麼去"},{"start":27051.33,"end":27056.33,"text":"定義台糖這樣的一個舉動是對的還是不對的"},{"start":27056.33,"end":27059.33,"text":"是很lucky的還是很倒楣的"},{"start":27059.33,"end":27064.33,"text":"這個就是我想從這個案例我們在這個接下來的修法"},{"start":27064.33,"end":27068.33,"text":"把這些灰色地帶都把它弄清楚這樣子"},{"start":27068.33,"end":27069.33,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":27069.33,"end":27070.33,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":27073.71,"end":27074.71,"text":"好謝謝陳營委員"},{"start":27076.49,"end":27078.49,"text":"接著請張雅玲委員"},{"start":27079.77,"end":27080.77,"text":"張雅玲委員"},{"start":27081.87,"end":27083.87,"text":"張雅玲委員不在"},{"start":27085.28,"end":27086.28,"text":"盧憲毅委員"},{"start":27087.49,"end":27088.49,"text":"盧憲毅委員"},{"start":27089.57,"end":27091.57,"text":"盧憲毅委員不在"},{"start":27092.47,"end":27093.47,"text":"鄭政前委員"},{"start":27094.5,"end":27095.5,"text":"鄭政前委員"},{"start":27096.34,"end":27098.34,"text":"鄭政前委員不在"},{"start":27103.49,"end":27107.49,"text":"好本日議程報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":27110.8,"end":27112.8,"text":"現在做以下決定"},{"start":27113.68,"end":27114.68,"text":"委員"},{"start":27114.87,"end":27115.87,"text":"徐欣穎"},{"start":27116.28,"end":27117.28,"text":"盧憲毅"},{"start":27117.9,"end":27118.9,"text":"張雅玲"},{"start":27119.42,"end":27120.42,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":27120.92,"end":27122.92,"text":"所提書面質詢"},{"start":27123.18,"end":27125.18,"text":"列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":27127.39,"end":27129.39,"text":"委員質詢未及答覆"},{"start":27130.02,"end":27132.02,"text":"或請補充資料者"},{"start":27132.02,"end":27136.02,"text":"請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆"},{"start":27137.16,"end":27139.16,"text":"委員另有要求期限者"},{"start":27139.16,"end":27141.16,"text":"重新鎖定"},{"start":27143.86,"end":27146.86,"text":"好待會我們休息五分鐘後"},{"start":27146.86,"end":27149.86,"text":"與本會議室繼續審查"},{"start":27152.41,"end":27155.41,"text":"及審查食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":27155.41,"end":27157.41,"text":"部分條文修正草案等"},{"start":27157.41,"end":27158.41,"text":"37案"},{"start":27160.01,"end":27161.01,"text":"現在休息"},{"start":27163.87,"end":27165.87,"text":"好像好像有一個"},{"start":27629.91,"end":27631.91,"text":"好現在繼續開會"},{"start":27634.75,"end":27636.75,"text":"本日會議下午議程為"},{"start":27636.75,"end":27640.75,"text":"繼續審查及審查食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":27640.75,"end":27643.75,"text":"部分條文修正草案等"},{"start":27643.75,"end":27644.75,"text":"37案"},{"start":27646.63,"end":27650.63,"text":"好接著我們介紹在場的委員"},{"start":27652.2,"end":27654.2,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":27658.56,"end":27660.56,"text":"好接著我們介紹我們"},{"start":27661.7,"end":27663.7,"text":"練習的官員"},{"start":27664.87,"end":27667.87,"text":"衛生福利部部長石崇良"},{"start":27671.72,"end":27674.72,"text":"食品藥物管理署署長江志剛"},{"start":27679.06,"end":27681.06,"text":"法規會參事陳信成"},{"start":27685.17,"end":27688.17,"text":"農業部農糧署副署長黃昭欣"},{"start":27691.55,"end":27693.55,"text":"檢認記證李瓊尼"},{"start":27696.5,"end":27699.5,"text":"序幕司副司長周志勳"},{"start":27703.06,"end":27706.06,"text":"漁業署檢認記證鄭淑雯"},{"start":27710.79,"end":27712.79,"text":"動植物防疫檢疫署"},{"start":27712.79,"end":27714.79,"text":"副署長徐萬德"},{"start":27718.25,"end":27720.25,"text":"檢認記證姚宗慧"},{"start":27723.82,"end":27725.82,"text":"檢認記證洪玉堂"},{"start":27729.82,"end":27731.82,"text":"經濟部產業發展署"},{"start":27731.82,"end":27733.82,"text":"副署長周宇新"},{"start":27736.54,"end":27737.54,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":27738.23,"end":27739.23,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":27740.25,"end":27741.25,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":27742.67,"end":27744.67,"text":"副署長羅世凡"},{"start":27748.39,"end":27750.39,"text":"商業發展署副署長"},{"start":27751.32,"end":27752.32,"text":"簡俊良"},{"start":27755.37,"end":27758.37,"text":"國營事業管理師科長谷美蘭"},{"start":27761.82,"end":27764.82,"text":"法務部參事汪南君"},{"start":27767.69,"end":27770.69,"text":"教育部國民及學前教育署"},{"start":27770.69,"end":27772.69,"text":"專門委員林如榮"},{"start":27775.62,"end":27778.62,"text":"綜合規劃師科長羅秀慧"},{"start":27783.62,"end":27785.62,"text":"財政部財政資訊中心"},{"start":27785.62,"end":27787.62,"text":"副主任謝明峰"},{"start":27790.44,"end":27792.44,"text":"科長陳明珠"},{"start":27794.61,"end":27797.61,"text":"副稅署科長黃庭玉"},{"start":27801.05,"end":27804.05,"text":"國庫署科長劉秀卿"},{"start":27806.71,"end":27808.71,"text":"國務署檢認機何"},{"start":27809.66,"end":27810.66,"text":"杜嘉文"},{"start":27813.76,"end":27817.76,"text":"內政部警政署刑事警察局主任張文元"},{"start":27820.81,"end":27823.81,"text":"經濟科股長沈梅君"},{"start":27826.87,"end":27829.87,"text":"保安警察第七總隊第三大隊"},{"start":27829.87,"end":27832.87,"text":"副大隊長徐祥偉"},{"start":27838.11,"end":27840.11,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":27842.35,"end":27844.35,"text":"繼續逐條審查前"},{"start":27844.35,"end":27846.35,"text":"先做以下說明"},{"start":27846.68,"end":27848.68,"text":"一 本委員會已在"},{"start":27848.68,"end":27851.68,"text":"一百一十五年七月八日"},{"start":27851.68,"end":27853.68,"text":"第十八次委員會議"},{"start":27853.68,"end":27856.68,"text":"舊委員廖偉祥等十八人"},{"start":27856.68,"end":27860.68,"text":"凝聚食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":27860.68,"end":27864.68,"text":"第二十四條及第二十五條"},{"start":27864.68,"end":27867.68,"text":"條文修正草案等十七案"},{"start":27867.68,"end":27869.68,"text":"詢答完畢"},{"start":27870.51,"end":27871.51,"text":"啊"},{"start":27871.61,"end":27873.61,"text":"本日再加入行政院"},{"start":27873.61,"end":27875.61,"text":"含請審議"},{"start":27875.61,"end":27877.61,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":27877.61,"end":27881.61,"text":"部分條文修正草案等二十個提案"},{"start":27882.41,"end":27885.41,"text":"與上述十七案並案審理"},{"start":27885.93,"end":27888.93,"text":"今日下午議程進行"},{"start":27888.93,"end":27891.93,"text":"會先請委員進行提案說明後"},{"start":27891.93,"end":27895.93,"text":"由部長就各提案進行相關說明"},{"start":27896.85,"end":27898.85,"text":"不再另作詢答"},{"start":27898.84,"end":27901.84,"text":"與宣讀條文後及進行逐條討論"},{"start":27907.33,"end":27910.33,"text":"現在請提案委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":27910.79,"end":27912.79,"text":"每位委員兩分鐘"},{"start":27913.63,"end":27916.63,"text":"會議結束"},{"start":27915.62,"end":27917.62,"text":"好"},{"start":27916.51,"end":27919.51,"text":"現場應吳委員登記要提案說明"},{"start":27923.8,"end":27926.8,"text":"接下來請衛生福利部時部長"},{"start":27926.8,"end":27929.8,"text":"就討論事項進行說明"},{"start":27935.56,"end":27937.56,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":27937.56,"end":27939.56,"text":"那麼陳大院安排審查"},{"start":27939.56,"end":27943.56,"text":"行政院所提食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":27943.56,"end":27945.56,"text":"修正條文草案"},{"start":27945.56,"end":27949.56,"text":"以及大院委員所提修正草案"},{"start":27949.56,"end":27951.56,"text":"等共三十七案"},{"start":27951.56,"end":27955.56,"text":"那麼本部這個就以上提案"},{"start":27955.56,"end":27958.56,"text":"做簡短的立法說明"},{"start":27958.56,"end":27961.56,"text":"那麼首先說明行政院提案"},{"start":27961.56,"end":27963.56,"text":"版本的修正重點"},{"start":27963.56,"end":27966.56,"text":"本次食安法的修法行政院版本"},{"start":27966.56,"end":27969.56,"text":"以強化源頭管理製程管理"},{"start":27969.56,"end":27971.56,"text":"異常通報品質管理"},{"start":27971.56,"end":27974.56,"text":"跟數位治理五大方向為核心"},{"start":27974.56,"end":27976.56,"text":"共提出修正十七條條文"},{"start":27976.56,"end":27979.56,"text":"重點可分為五大面向來說明"},{"start":27979.56,"end":27982.56,"text":"那麼重整第一就是對業者"},{"start":27982.56,"end":27985.56,"text":"要求強化自主檢驗"},{"start":27985.56,"end":27987.56,"text":"那麼食安的監測計畫"},{"start":27987.56,"end":27990.56,"text":"對特定的類別或規模者"},{"start":27990.56,"end":27992.56,"text":"要經中央來核定"},{"start":27992.56,"end":27996.56,"text":"第二是要求業者發現或知悉"},{"start":27996.56,"end":27999.56,"text":"原料、產品有危害之餘時"},{"start":27999.56,"end":28002.56,"text":"應於二十四小時內通報等等"},{"start":28002.56,"end":28005.56,"text":"那麼第二是對實驗室的要求"},{"start":28005.56,"end":28008.56,"text":"那麼要求實驗室需經過認證"},{"start":28008.56,"end":28011.56,"text":"而且也強化其通報的義務"},{"start":28011.56,"end":28014.56,"text":"在檢驗結果出去二十四小時內"},{"start":28014.56,"end":28017.56,"text":"那麼要通報給主管機關"},{"start":28017.56,"end":28021.56,"text":"第三是對第三方機構的要求"},{"start":28021.56,"end":28026.56,"text":"那麼授予第三方認證機構"},{"start":28026.56,"end":28030.56,"text":"得進行現場的抽樣"},{"start":28030.56,"end":28033.56,"text":"那麼業者必須要去配合"},{"start":28033.56,"end":28035.56,"text":"那麼不得拒絕或迴避"},{"start":28035.56,"end":28039.56,"text":"那麼同時發現有重大異常的時候"},{"start":28039.56,"end":28041.56,"text":"也要主動的通報主管機關"},{"start":28041.56,"end":28045.56,"text":"那麼第四在政府的執法方面"},{"start":28045.56,"end":28049.56,"text":"那麼因應重大的食安事件"},{"start":28049.56,"end":28056.56,"text":"中央得報、得成立食品安全事件的指揮中心"},{"start":28056.56,"end":28060.56,"text":"另一方面對相關的罰則上限"},{"start":28060.56,"end":28064.56,"text":"那麼也提高來重重裁罰"},{"start":28064.56,"end":28068.56,"text":"那麼特別是對於這種異常通報"},{"start":28068.56,"end":28070.56,"text":"那麼隱匿或延遲者"},{"start":28070.56,"end":28073.56,"text":"從上限三百萬提高到上限三千萬"},{"start":28073.56,"end":28077.56,"text":"另外也明定下架措施"},{"start":28077.56,"end":28080.56,"text":"及後續處理的授權辦法"},{"start":28080.56,"end":28084.56,"text":"另外在食安基金的用途部分也增列"},{"start":28084.56,"end":28088.56,"text":"得補助依規定預防下架"},{"start":28088.56,"end":28093.56,"text":"而且是非違規食品業者的相關費用補助等"},{"start":28093.56,"end":28098.56,"text":"那麼最後是強化網路的食品安全管理"},{"start":28098.56,"end":28101.56,"text":"那麼明定的網際網路業者"},{"start":28101.56,"end":28105.56,"text":"因應應進之管理義務"},{"start":28105.56,"end":28109.56,"text":"以及應執行的風險管控措施"},{"start":28109.56,"end":28117.56,"text":"那麼其次在針對各個委員的提案修正版本"},{"start":28117.56,"end":28121.56,"text":"也進行一些重整性的說明"},{"start":28121.56,"end":28123.56,"text":"因為版本相當的多"},{"start":28123.56,"end":28125.56,"text":"那麼重整成以下四大面向"},{"start":28125.56,"end":28130.56,"text":"第一個是有關於食品業者自主管理"},{"start":28130.56,"end":28132.56,"text":"跟風險管理制度的部分"},{"start":28132.56,"end":28136.56,"text":"那麼八行提出提高自主的檢驗頻率"},{"start":28136.56,"end":28140.56,"text":"實驗室的認證以及異常通報機制"},{"start":28140.56,"end":28144.56,"text":"另外建立起食品安全風險的分級管理"},{"start":28144.56,"end":28146.56,"text":"強化第三方驗證"},{"start":28146.56,"end":28150.56,"text":"增定食品安全專業簽證以及強化"},{"start":28151.4,"end":28154.4,"text":"追溯追蹤與電子聲報等等"},{"start":28154.4,"end":28157.4,"text":"那麼這個也很多做法"},{"start":28157.4,"end":28162.4,"text":"那麼條文是跟行政院版本有類似相近之處"},{"start":28162.4,"end":28164.4,"text":"那麼另外有一些是"},{"start":28164.4,"end":28167.4,"text":"在目前的行政院版本裡面"},{"start":28167.4,"end":28170.4,"text":"是以授權法規的方式來做訂定"},{"start":28170.4,"end":28172.4,"text":"未來在審查條文的時候"},{"start":28172.4,"end":28174.4,"text":"我們再逐一來表達"},{"start":28174.4,"end":28178.4,"text":"那麼第二個是關於政府監督邊境管理"},{"start":28178.4,"end":28180.4,"text":"跟食安事件的應變部分"},{"start":28180.4,"end":28182.4,"text":"在某人的版本裡面"},{"start":28182.4,"end":28186.4,"text":"也提出了建立跨部會的食安通報平台"},{"start":28186.4,"end":28190.4,"text":"還有中央的食品安全事件的指揮中心"},{"start":28190.4,"end":28195.4,"text":"另外針對基改食品跟大宗農產品的邊境"},{"start":28195.4,"end":28197.4,"text":"查驗的強化"},{"start":28197.4,"end":28200.4,"text":"還有建立全國性風險分析"},{"start":28200.4,"end":28202.4,"text":"跟專案查核機制明確"},{"start":28202.4,"end":28205.4,"text":"這個訂定預防性下架程序等等"},{"start":28205.4,"end":28209.4,"text":"那這裡面也涉及到不同部會"},{"start":28209.4,"end":28213.4,"text":"還有我們目前現行做法上的一些調整"},{"start":28213.4,"end":28216.4,"text":"那麼未來希望這個在逐條的時候"},{"start":28216.4,"end":28219.4,"text":"再詳細的向更改委員來說明"},{"start":28219.4,"end":28222.4,"text":"那麼第三是關於食品標示"},{"start":28222.4,"end":28224.4,"text":"跟資訊介入的部分"},{"start":28224.4,"end":28226.4,"text":"包含原廠地標示"},{"start":28226.4,"end":28229.4,"text":"還有原鄉的食品標示"},{"start":28229.4,"end":28232.4,"text":"還有嬰幼兒食品等之標示"},{"start":28232.4,"end":28233.4,"text":"還有廣告宣稱"},{"start":28233.4,"end":28235.4,"text":"那目前其實在食安法"},{"start":28235.4,"end":28239.4,"text":"已經有授權有關標示的一些規定"},{"start":28239.4,"end":28248.4,"text":"那麼對於委員希望強化原廠地標示的部分"},{"start":28248.4,"end":28251.4,"text":"我們也會參考國際上的一些做法"},{"start":28251.4,"end":28255.4,"text":"在修法的時候再跟委員來請教"},{"start":28255.4,"end":28258.4,"text":"那麼第四個是加重了違規責任"},{"start":28258.4,"end":28260.4,"text":"及強化消費者保護的部分"},{"start":28260.4,"end":28263.4,"text":"包含提高違規的罰則"},{"start":28263.4,"end":28267.4,"text":"強化吹哨者檢舉人的保護及獎勵"},{"start":28267.4,"end":28270.4,"text":"還有主動通報的檢責食安基金的用途"},{"start":28270.4,"end":28272.4,"text":"跟補助機制等等"},{"start":28272.4,"end":28274.4,"text":"所以以上有關委員提案"},{"start":28274.4,"end":28276.4,"text":"從食品業者的自主管理"},{"start":28276.4,"end":28278.4,"text":"政府監督邊境管理"},{"start":28278.4,"end":28280.4,"text":"食品安全事件的應變"},{"start":28280.4,"end":28285.4,"text":"產品的標示違規責任及消費者保護"},{"start":28285.4,"end":28289.4,"text":"等等的面向來強化食品安全的管理"},{"start":28289.4,"end":28295.4,"text":"那麼都是基於維護國人的食品安全的共同目標"},{"start":28295.4,"end":28297.4,"text":"利益非常良善"},{"start":28297.4,"end":28299.4,"text":"這個本部都競表認同"},{"start":28299.4,"end":28301.4,"text":"但是在審慎檢視"},{"start":28301.4,"end":28307.4,"text":"其實部分已經納入了行政院版的修正草案規劃"},{"start":28307.4,"end":28312.4,"text":"那有些部分是已經納入行政院版的授權執法"},{"start":28312.4,"end":28315.4,"text":"來研擬那個納入規範"},{"start":28315.4,"end":28319.4,"text":"另外有些部分是像是已經有現行管理機制"},{"start":28319.4,"end":28323.4,"text":"那麼是執行面的強化"},{"start":28323.4,"end":28329.4,"text":"那麼另外有些是需要審酌在他未來執行上的可行性等等"},{"start":28329.4,"end":28333.4,"text":"所以我們將會把握時間"},{"start":28333.4,"end":28337.4,"text":"那麼持續的跟各位委員來充分的溝通"},{"start":28337.4,"end":28341.4,"text":"那麼希望在未來的這個排審主條的時候"},{"start":28341.4,"end":28344.4,"text":"能夠儘速的凝聚修法的共識"},{"start":28344.4,"end":28347.4,"text":"並配合整個修法的進程"},{"start":28347.4,"end":28350.4,"text":"同步的檢討修正相關的執法"},{"start":28350.4,"end":28354.4,"text":"持續的精進食品安全的管理制度"},{"start":28354.4,"end":28355.4,"text":"那麼以上報告"},{"start":28355.4,"end":28359.4,"text":"那麼謝謝各位委員的指教跟監督"},{"start":28359.4,"end":28361.4,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":28362.37,"end":28364.37,"text":"好,謝謝史部長說明"},{"start":28366.47,"end":28370.47,"text":"好,現在請醫事人員宣讀提案條文內容"},{"start":28370.65,"end":28372.65,"text":"若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":28375.83,"end":28378.83,"text":"視頻衛生管理法部分條文修正草案行政院提案"},{"start":28378.83,"end":28379.83,"text":"委員廖偉祥的18人提案"},{"start":28379.83,"end":28381.83,"text":"委員蘇清泉的23人提案"},{"start":28381.83,"end":28383.83,"text":"委員蘇清泉的20人提案"},{"start":28384.35,"end":28386.35,"text":"委員葛如君的22人提案"},{"start":28386.35,"end":28387.35,"text":"委員翁曉琳的17人提案"},{"start":28387.35,"end":28389.35,"text":"委員黃建豪的19人提案"},{"start":28389.35,"end":28391.35,"text":"委員羅志祥的29人提案"},{"start":28391.35,"end":28392.35,"text":"委員黃建豪的16人提案"},{"start":28392.35,"end":28394.35,"text":"委員羅天衛的17人提案"},{"start":28394.35,"end":28396.35,"text":"委員臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":28396.35,"end":28398.35,"text":"委員魯明哲的16人提案"},{"start":28398.35,"end":28399.35,"text":"委員王玉敏的17人提案"},{"start":28399.35,"end":28401.35,"text":"委員林獻琪的19人提案"},{"start":28401.35,"end":28403.35,"text":"委員陳超明的16人提案"},{"start":28403.35,"end":28405.35,"text":"委員黃建豪的23人提案"},{"start":28405.35,"end":28407.35,"text":"委員張家俊的28人提案"},{"start":28407.35,"end":28409.35,"text":"委員黃玉敏的19人提案"},{"start":28409.35,"end":28411.35,"text":"委員劉建國的19人提案"},{"start":28411.35,"end":28412.35,"text":"委員徐宇峥的16人提案"},{"start":28412.35,"end":28413.35,"text":"委員郭國文的18人提案"},{"start":28413.35,"end":28415.35,"text":"國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":28415.35,"end":28416.35,"text":"委員黃建豪的16人提案"},{"start":28416.35,"end":28418.35,"text":"委員廖偉祥的19人提案"},{"start":28418.35,"end":28420.35,"text":"委員李彥秀的23人提案"},{"start":28420.35,"end":28422.35,"text":"委員盧志強的17人提案"},{"start":28422.35,"end":28423.35,"text":"委員盧憲義的16人提案"},{"start":28423.35,"end":28424.35,"text":"委員吳立華的16人提案"},{"start":28424.35,"end":28426.35,"text":"委員徐宇正的20人提案"},{"start":28426.35,"end":28428.35,"text":"委員王玉敏的25人提案"},{"start":28428.35,"end":28430.35,"text":"委員徐巧新的17人提案"},{"start":28430.35,"end":28432.35,"text":"委員林月晴的24人提案"},{"start":28432.35,"end":28434.35,"text":"委員林淑芬的21人提案"},{"start":28434.35,"end":28435.35,"text":"委員鄭天才的16人提案"},{"start":28435.35,"end":28437.35,"text":"委員李坤城的18人提案"},{"start":28437.35,"end":28439.35,"text":"委員黃秀芳的21人提案"},{"start":28439.35,"end":28440.35,"text":"委員劉建國的16人提案"},{"start":28440.35,"end":28442.35,"text":"憲行法條文對照表"},{"start":28444.43,"end":28447.43,"text":"行政院提案第二條之二"},{"start":28447.43,"end":28449.43,"text":"中央主管機關因應國內外重大或"},{"start":28449.43,"end":28451.43,"text":"頭髮性食品衛生安全事件"},{"start":28451.43,"end":28454.43,"text":"經評估任由統籌各項資源設備及"},{"start":28454.43,"end":28457.43,"text":"整合相關機關購人員之必要時"},{"start":28457.43,"end":28459.43,"text":"得報請行政院同意成立"},{"start":28459.43,"end":28463.43,"text":"中央食品安全事件指揮中心以下稱指揮中心"},{"start":28464.44,"end":28468.44,"text":"並指定人員擔任指揮官統一指揮督導與協調"},{"start":28468.44,"end":28472.44,"text":"各級政府機關購供應事業及民間團體"},{"start":28472.44,"end":28474.44,"text":"執行相關應變措施"},{"start":28474.44,"end":28477.44,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關與轄區發生重大或"},{"start":28477.44,"end":28479.44,"text":"頭髮性食品衛生安全事件時"},{"start":28479.44,"end":28483.44,"text":"應立即動員所屬各相關機關購集人員"},{"start":28483.44,"end":28484.44,"text":"採行必要之措施"},{"start":28485.17,"end":28488.17,"text":"並通報中央主管機關與前項指揮中心成立後"},{"start":28488.17,"end":28491.17,"text":"應依其指示辦理"},{"start":28491.17,"end":28493.17,"text":"第一項指揮中心編組任務"},{"start":28493.17,"end":28496.17,"text":"作業程序及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":28496.17,"end":28498.17,"text":"由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":28498.17,"end":28500.17,"text":"所有委員提案均與行政院提案同意"},{"start":28508.27,"end":28511.27,"text":"行政院提案第三條 增列第十三款"},{"start":28513.7,"end":28517.7,"text":"網際網路業者 指網際網路平台提供者"},{"start":28517.7,"end":28521.7,"text":"網際網路應用服務提供者 及網際網路內容提供者"},{"start":28522.81,"end":28525.81,"text":"其餘同縣刑法所有委員提案與行政院提案同意"},{"start":28539.59,"end":28542.59,"text":"文書侵權等二十人提案第四條"},{"start":28542.59,"end":28546.59,"text":"第一項 據莫徵 引發爭議之十安重大政策"},{"start":28546.59,"end":28548.59,"text":"應由人民公投復決之"},{"start":28548.59,"end":28552.59,"text":"針對公投結果 政府應接受並成為政府政策"},{"start":28552.59,"end":28554.59,"text":"其餘同縣刑法"},{"start":28554.94,"end":28557.94,"text":"文理院秀等二十三人提案第四條"},{"start":28557.94,"end":28561.94,"text":"第五項第三行 修正為最小暴露原則"},{"start":28562.66,"end":28568.66,"text":"第五行 修正為列管理措施分號並因訊維風險評估"},{"start":28568.66,"end":28576.66,"text":"同時增列第三款 與大眾傳播媒體公告產品名稱流向或其他必要資訊"},{"start":28576.66,"end":28578.66,"text":"增列第四 第六項"},{"start":28578.66,"end":28582.66,"text":"前項重大或突發性食品衛生安全事件之認定"},{"start":28582.66,"end":28586.66,"text":"採取管理措施之標準與處理原則"},{"start":28586.66,"end":28589.66,"text":"正當程序之保障及其他應遵行事項"},{"start":28589.66,"end":28592.66,"text":"第七項 由中央主管機關定制區同縣刑法"},{"start":28593.32,"end":28596.32,"text":"文劉建國等十九人提案第四條 增列第二項"},{"start":28596.32,"end":28608.32,"text":"前項風險評估因綜合食品科學、食品技術、獨立學、醫學、營養學、公共衛生、流行病學、環境、健康、風險管理及其他相關專業"},{"start":28608.32,"end":28612.32,"text":"第三項第一行 修正為第一項風險評估"},{"start":28612.32,"end":28616.32,"text":"第二行 修正獨立遁號公共衛生與風險"},{"start":28616.32,"end":28618.32,"text":"第四項第四行"},{"start":28619.56,"end":28622.56,"text":"第五項 修正獨立遁號公共衛生遁號"},{"start":28624.15,"end":28633.15,"text":"同時增列第六項 中央主管機關進行重大食品安全事件之風險評估或健康風險研判時"},{"start":28633.15,"end":28638.15,"text":"因事件性質納入公共衛生師、食品技師及其他相關專業人員參與"},{"start":28639.17,"end":28641.17,"text":"第七項前項 重大食品"},{"start":28642.29,"end":28650.29,"text":"食品安全事件之認定專業人員之參與方式風險評估及健康風險研判程序由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":28650.61,"end":28652.61,"text":"並遞於原第五項"},{"start":28653.48,"end":28657.48,"text":"其餘同線刑法 為李恩秀等23人提案第五條之一"},{"start":28658.03,"end":28667.03,"text":"政府應致力及時充實消費資訊 並以消費者作為消費行為選擇基礎以維護其安全與權益"},{"start":28668.07,"end":28670.07,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第六條之一"},{"start":28670.07,"end":28681.07,"text":"中央主管機關應會同農業部、經濟部、財政部及相關部會參考國際食品快速通關機制建立全國性跨部會即時食安通報平台"},{"start":28682.7,"end":28690.7,"text":"從業部、經濟部、財政部與相關部會於執行職務時發現食品供應鏈設有系統性異常風險之數據或情資"},{"start":28690.7,"end":28698.7,"text":"應於24小時內登錄該平台完成即時通報 打破部會資訊壁壘 落實預防原則"},{"start":28698.7,"end":28706.7,"text":"前兩項跨部會通報體系之運作全責分工及全民參與監督辦法由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":28706.7,"end":28717.7,"text":"通報平台應與歐盟食品與飼料快速通報系統ISFF等國際食品安全通報系統建立資訊連結"},{"start":28717.7,"end":28724.7,"text":"即時掌握國際食品安全風險動態並主動納入進口原料之國際風險預警資訊"},{"start":28724.7,"end":28730.7,"text":"中央主管機關應於本條例施行後一年內完成即時通報平台之建置"},{"start":28730.7,"end":28733.7,"text":"並每年向立法院提出平台運作成效報告"},{"start":28735.34,"end":28737.34,"text":"為黃建豪等16人體驗第六條之一"},{"start":28739.27,"end":28747.27,"text":"中央主管機關應會統農業部經濟部財政部及其他相關部會建立全國性跨部會即時食安通報平台"},{"start":28747.27,"end":28749.27,"text":"以下簡稱通報平台"},{"start":28749.27,"end":28756.27,"text":"前項相關部會於執行職務時發現食品供應鏈設有系統性異常風險之數據或情資"},{"start":28756.27,"end":28761.27,"text":"應於24小時內登錄通報平台完成即時通報"},{"start":28761.27,"end":28774.27,"text":"通報平台應於歐盟食品與飼料快速通報系統ISFFF等國際食品安全通報機制建立資訊連結主動納入進口原料之預警資訊"},{"start":28774.27,"end":28776.27,"text":"並即時掌握國際風險動態"},{"start":28776.27,"end":28781.27,"text":"中央主管機關應於本條施行之日起一年內完成通報平台之建置"},{"start":28781.27,"end":28785.27,"text":"並每年向立法院提出通報平台之運作成效報告"},{"start":28786.01,"end":28794.01,"text":"第一項及第二項通報平台之運作機制跨部會全責分工全民參與監督及其他因遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":28794.01,"end":28796.01,"text":"由莊主管機關定制"},{"start":28797.25,"end":28799.25,"text":"文羅志強等17人提案"},{"start":28799.25,"end":28802.25,"text":"文羅獻一等16人提案"},{"start":28802.25,"end":28804.25,"text":"文徐巧新等17人提案"},{"start":28808.76,"end":28810.76,"text":"文西委員鄭天才等16人提案"},{"start":28810.76,"end":28812.76,"text":"君宇國民黨提案"},{"start":28812.76,"end":28814.76,"text":"同文旭真等20人提案"},{"start":28814.76,"end":28816.76,"text":"第六條之一"},{"start":28817.23,"end":28819.23,"text":"第二項第四行"},{"start":28819.23,"end":28823.23,"text":"刪除打破部會資訊壁壘落實預防原則"},{"start":28823.23,"end":28826.23,"text":"其餘與國民黨提案同"},{"start":28830.33,"end":28832.33,"text":"行政院提案第七條"},{"start":28832.33,"end":28834.33,"text":"第一項第三行"},{"start":28834.8,"end":28840.8,"text":"帽號符合一定類別及規模者其食品安全監測計畫因報經莊主管機關核定"},{"start":28840.8,"end":28846.8,"text":"第二項第三行修正為帽號符合一定類別及規模者因定其檢驗"},{"start":28846.8,"end":28853.8,"text":"第三項第二行修正為主管機關指定之食品業則同時增列第四項"},{"start":28853.8,"end":28858.8,"text":"執行前兩項檢驗之機關構法人團體或實驗室"},{"start":28858.8,"end":28860.8,"text":"第四項第五項"},{"start":28860.8,"end":28862.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28862.8,"end":28864.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28864.8,"end":28866.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28866.8,"end":28868.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28868.8,"end":28870.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28870.8,"end":28872.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28872.8,"end":28874.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28874.8,"end":28876.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28876.8,"end":28878.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28878.8,"end":28880.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28880.8,"end":28882.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28882.8,"end":28884.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28884.8,"end":28886.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28886.8,"end":28888.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28888.8,"end":28890.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28890.8,"end":28892.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28892.8,"end":28894.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28894.8,"end":28896.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28896.8,"end":28898.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28898.8,"end":28900.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28900.8,"end":28902.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28902.8,"end":28904.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28904.8,"end":28906.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28906.8,"end":28908.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28908.8,"end":28910.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28910.8,"end":28912.8,"text":"第五項"},{"start":28897.83,"end":28899.83,"text":"原第四項第一為第六項"},{"start":28899.83,"end":28909.83,"text":"第一項因訂定食品安全監測計畫與一定類別及規模因報經核定之食品業者監測計畫之內容核定程序"},{"start":28909.83,"end":28917.83,"text":"第二項因辦理檢驗之食品業者檢驗項目最低檢驗週期執行檢驗機關構法人或團體之設置及管理"},{"start":28917.83,"end":28923.83,"text":"第三項指定之食品業者實驗室之設置及管理第四項與第五項通報程序"},{"start":28923.83,"end":28927.83,"text":"通報內容及其他因遵行四項之辦法由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":28927.83,"end":28929.83,"text":"同時增列第七項"},{"start":28929.83,"end":28943.83,"text":"第一項食品安全監測計畫之核定中央主管機關得委任委託相關機關構法人或團體辦理其委任委託辦法由中央主管機關定制區同現行法"},{"start":28944.71,"end":28946.71,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第七條"},{"start":28948.86,"end":28954.86,"text":"第四項第四行修正為週期與因涵蓋之污染物質項目"},{"start":28957.72,"end":28966.72,"text":"第五項起宣讀年供應量達中央主管機關公告標準之食品原料業者應符合下列加強管理要求"},{"start":28966.72,"end":28975.72,"text":"一每批次成品出廠前應完成中央主管機關公告之全項強制污染物檢驗並上傳檢驗電磁記錄"},{"start":28975.72,"end":28977.72,"text":"非經檢驗合格不得出廠"},{"start":28977.72,"end":28986.72,"text":"二每半年接受中央主管機關指派或認可之第三方機構進行製程關鍵節點集合"},{"start":28986.72,"end":28995.72,"text":"三建立製程關鍵參數包括經驗溫度脫色程序脫臭時間等之即時記錄並留存至少五年"},{"start":28995.72,"end":28997.72,"text":"供主管機關隨時查閱"},{"start":28997.72,"end":29003.72,"text":"四每批次成品之出貨流向因以電子方式即時申報追溯系統不得持誤"},{"start":29005.25,"end":29014.25,"text":"食品業者自主檢驗發現出現異常時因於二四小時內向所在地直轄市縣市主管機關辦理綠色預通報"},{"start":29014.25,"end":29025.25,"text":"並同步主動停止販售販賣主管機關接獲預通報後因一第四二條至二第二項規定辦理復驗及後續處置"},{"start":29025.25,"end":29035.25,"text":"前項預通報期間主管機關及承辦人員因對業者身份與產品資訊保密不得對外公開食品業者依第六項規定辦理"},{"start":29035.25,"end":29045.25,"text":"預通報且積極配合主管機關後續復驗及回收者免除本法所訂之全部行政罰鍰並公開表揚其貢獻"},{"start":29045.25,"end":29055.25,"text":"知悉食品業者產品有危害衛生安全之虞而主動向主管機關通報知食品業從業人員視為本條例之檢舉者"},{"start":29055.25,"end":29059.25,"text":"適用第四三條保護規定其餘同現行法"},{"start":29059.74,"end":29072.74,"text":"為郭國文等18人提案第七條增列第六項第二項之檢驗機關購法人或團體知悉食品業者檢驗結果不符規定或有提供不實材料之情勢"},{"start":29072.74,"end":29077.74,"text":"因立即向直轄市縣市主管機關通報支持不得超過24小時"},{"start":29078.96,"end":29090.96,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關於接獲前項通報後應立即進行查核並通報中央主管機關前項通報之方式及內容由中央主管機關定制區域同現行法"},{"start":29092.58,"end":29096.58,"text":"為黃建豪等16人提案第七條第四項第四行修正"},{"start":29097.78,"end":29100.78,"text":"周期與因涵蓋之污染物質項目"},{"start":29101.81,"end":29111.81,"text":"第五項起針對中央主管機關公告具定規模或年供應量之食品原料供應商因遵行下列強化管理措施"},{"start":29111.81,"end":29123.81,"text":"一產品出廠前須完成中央主管機關規定之所有污染物質檢驗並將檢驗結果之電磁記錄上傳未經驗證合格者禁止出廠"},{"start":29123.81,"end":29130.81,"text":"二每半年須由中央主管機關認可至第三方機構針對製程之關鍵環節進行專案集合"},{"start":29130.81,"end":29136.81,"text":"三一及時記錄如精煉溫度脫色程序及脫臭時間等製程核心參數"},{"start":29137.84,"end":29147.84,"text":"且相關記錄須保存五年以上被查四個批次產品之出貨流向必須及時以電子化方式登錄於追溯系統嚴禁延遲通報"},{"start":29148.81,"end":29157.81,"text":"延遲申報食品業者自主檢驗發現出現異常時因二四小時內向所在地直轄市縣市主管機關辦理綠色預通報"},{"start":29157.81,"end":29167.81,"text":"並同步主動停止販賣主管機關接獲預通報後因一第四十二條之二第二項規定辦理復驗及後續處置前項預通報"},{"start":29167.81,"end":29173.81,"text":"期間主管機關及承辦人員應對業者身份與產品資訊保密不得對外公開"},{"start":29173.81,"end":29184.81,"text":"食品業者一第六項規定辦理預通報且積極配合主管機關後續復驗及回收者免除本法所定之全部行政法環並公開表揚其貢獻"},{"start":29184.81,"end":29191.81,"text":"知悉食品業者產品有危害衛生安全之予而主動向主管機關通報至食品業者從業人員"},{"start":29191.81,"end":29196.81,"text":"市委本條例之檢舉者適用第四三條保護規定第二項鎖定"},{"start":29197.73,"end":29208.73,"text":"受送交之檢驗機關購法人或團體與檢出食品原材料辦成品或成品含有重大非法添加物成分時"},{"start":29208.73,"end":29211.73,"text":"因主動通報直轄市縣市主管機關"},{"start":29214.15,"end":29222.15,"text":"前相因通報之重大非法添加物項目通報程序及其他因遵行事項之辦法由莊主管機關電子區通限刑法"},{"start":29223.01,"end":29231.01,"text":"文料違祥等是九人提案第七條第四項第五行修正為其公告之最低檢驗周期應依下列規定辦理"},{"start":29235.06,"end":29245.06,"text":"一金莊主管機關評估為具食品安全高風險之特定食品業者類別其最低檢驗周期不得少於每季一次其屬公告特定高風險品項者"},{"start":29245.06,"end":29253.06,"text":"其最低檢驗周期不得少於每月一次二本法所稱具食品安全高風險之特定食品業者類別"},{"start":29253.06,"end":29259.06,"text":"指其產製或輸入之食品食品添加物金莊主管機關基於製程複雜度"},{"start":29259.06,"end":29269.06,"text":"危害物質殘留風險消費對象之脆弱性或曾發生重大食品安全事件評估有對國民健康造成重大影響之餘"},{"start":29270.06,"end":29289.06,"text":"並經公告者特定高危害風險品項由莊主管機關公告之食品業者受委託檢驗機關購法人團體及其檢驗人員於執行檢驗複驗或評管作業時發現產品原材料半成品或成品有危害人體健康之物質超過法定標準"},{"start":29290.12,"end":29302.12,"text":"因及通報直轄市縣市主管機關及莊主管機關,其通報不受營業秘密契約保密約款或僱主指示之限制,其餘同現行法。"},{"start":29302.12,"end":29305.12,"text":"文理驗秀等23人提案第七條"},{"start":29305.12,"end":29318.12,"text":"第三項第二項修正為設置莊主管機關指定機構之認證並莊主管機關認可之實驗室從事前項自主檢驗並逐次逐項記錄檢驗結果。"},{"start":29318.62,"end":29320.62,"text":"原第五項調整為第四項。"},{"start":29321.49,"end":29331.49,"text":"食品業者於發現產品有危害衛生安全之餘使應及主動停止製造加工販賣及辦理回收並通報直轄市縣市主管機關。"},{"start":29333.52,"end":29349.52,"text":"原第四項調整為第五項並自第四行起修正為第三項認證與認可之程序實驗室查核與自主檢驗因記錄之事項及前項有危害衛生安全之餘之判準。"},{"start":29350.03,"end":29355.03,"text":"其他相關事項由莊主管機關定制其餘同線刑法。"},{"start":29356.25,"end":29359.25,"text":"委員諾志強等17人提案第七條。"},{"start":29363.37,"end":29366.37,"text":"委員諾志強等17人提案第七條。"},{"start":29370.92,"end":29373.92,"text":"委員諾志強等17人提案第七條。"},{"start":29373.92,"end":29376.92,"text":"委員諾志強等17人提案第七條。"},{"start":29380.54,"end":29383.54,"text":"委員諾志強等17人提案第七條。"},{"start":29383.54,"end":29385.54,"text":"國民黨黨團提案同。"},{"start":29391.24,"end":29394.24,"text":"委員諾志強等16人提案第七條。"},{"start":29400.16,"end":29402.16,"text":"委員林月晴等24人提案第七條。"},{"start":29402.16,"end":29404.16,"text":"委員林淑芬等21人提案第七條。"},{"start":29404.16,"end":29407.16,"text":"委員李坤城等18人提案第七條。"},{"start":29407.16,"end":29409.16,"text":"委員黃秀芳等21人提案第七條。"},{"start":29409.16,"end":29411.16,"text":"委員劉建國等19人提案第七條。"},{"start":29411.16,"end":29414.16,"text":"軍語行政院提案同。"},{"start":29415.62,"end":29418.62,"text":"文須與珍等20人提案第七條。"},{"start":29420.72,"end":29423.72,"text":"第八項第三行。"},{"start":29430.5,"end":29432.5,"text":"刪除。"},{"start":29434.03,"end":29436.03,"text":"並向主管機關通報。"},{"start":29436.03,"end":29438.03,"text":"其餘與國民黨提案同。"},{"start":29452.44,"end":29454.44,"text":"行政院提案第八條。"},{"start":29455.82,"end":29457.82,"text":"第五項第二行。"},{"start":29457.82,"end":29459.82,"text":"修正。"},{"start":29459.82,"end":29461.82,"text":"並取得安全衛生管理系統之驗證。"},{"start":29461.82,"end":29463.82,"text":"第六項第二行。"},{"start":29463.82,"end":29465.82,"text":"修正為申請認證之程序。"},{"start":29465.03,"end":29467.03,"text":"第四行。"},{"start":29467.03,"end":29469.03,"text":"修正為作業程序驗證結果異常處理。"},{"start":29469.03,"end":29471.03,"text":"同時針列第五項。"},{"start":29471.03,"end":29475.03,"text":"驗證機構為執行驗證得進入食品業者之場所進行現場抽樣。"},{"start":29475.03,"end":29480.03,"text":"要求該食品業者提供樣本自主檢驗報告及相關記錄。"},{"start":29480.03,"end":29484.03,"text":"食品業者應與配合不得規避妨礙或拒絕。"},{"start":29484.03,"end":29486.03,"text":"其餘與現行法同。"},{"start":29486.03,"end":29490.03,"text":"委員吳立華等16人提案。"},{"start":29495.83,"end":29497.83,"text":"委員林月晴等24人提案。"},{"start":29497.83,"end":29499.83,"text":"委員林淑芬等21人提案。"},{"start":29501.95,"end":29503.95,"text":"委員李坤城等18人提案。"},{"start":29503.95,"end":29505.95,"text":"委員黃秀芳等21人提案。"},{"start":29505.95,"end":29507.95,"text":"軍與行政院提案同。"},{"start":29511.08,"end":29513.08,"text":"委員王玉明等25人提案。"},{"start":29515.27,"end":29517.27,"text":"針列第六項。"},{"start":29517.27,"end":29525.27,"text":"驗證機構辦理前項驗證及追蹤查驗時應依驗證範圍及食品衛生安全風險訂定抽樣計畫。"},{"start":29525.27,"end":29531.27,"text":"對受驗證食品業者之原材料辦成品或成品辦理抽樣。"},{"start":29531.27,"end":29535.27,"text":"並將樣品送交經第37條第二項。"},{"start":29535.27,"end":29544.27,"text":"就該檢驗項目認證之檢驗機構機關構法人或團體檢驗受驗證食品業者應與配合不得規避妨礙或拒絕。"},{"start":29544.27,"end":29553.27,"text":"驗證機構於驗證追蹤查驗或前項抽驗檢驗時發現受驗證食品業者有下列重大異常情形之一者。"},{"start":29553.27,"end":29561.27,"text":"應與發現後24小時內通報莊主管機關及受驗證食品業者所在地之直轄市縣市主管機關。"},{"start":29561.27,"end":29568.27,"text":"並提供受影響產品之批次、來源流向、驗證或檢驗紀錄及其他相關資料。"},{"start":29569.27,"end":29575.27,"text":"一、原材料辦成品或成品有違反第15條第1項或第4項第16條規定之餘。"},{"start":29575.27,"end":29581.27,"text":"或有不符合第17條第18條或第19條鎖定標準之餘。"},{"start":29581.27,"end":29586.27,"text":"並有已使用於後續製程以販賣或供應之情形。"},{"start":29586.27,"end":29594.27,"text":"二、檢出進莊主管機關公告至有毒物質或有害人體健康之物質並達公告通報條件。"},{"start":29594.27,"end":29603.27,"text":"三、製程衛生安全管理系統或其紀錄有重大異常足以對食品衛生安全造成重大或廣泛影響。"},{"start":29605.43,"end":29616.43,"text":"第五項驗證應由莊主管機關認證之驗證機構辦理有關申請撤銷與廢止認證之條件或是由執行驗證之收費程序及方式。"},{"start":29616.43,"end":29621.43,"text":"第六項抽樣之風險基準計劃方法數量檢驗。"},{"start":29622.73,"end":29634.73,"text":"流量及費用前項重大異常之認定通報條件、期限方式、資料提供與保存及其他相關事項之管理辦法由莊主管機關定制其餘同線刑法。"},{"start":29641.04,"end":29644.04,"text":"為劉建國等19人提案第8條。"},{"start":29647.2,"end":29649.2,"text":"第六項第四行"},{"start":29650.42,"end":29655.42,"text":"刪除驗證結果之節字其餘與行政院提案同。"},{"start":29658.42,"end":29660.42,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第八條之一。"},{"start":29660.42,"end":29669.42,"text":"食品中污染物質及毒素之衛生標準由莊主管機關定制並應符合下列原則依對同一家族之複合性污染物。"},{"start":29669.42,"end":29674.42,"text":"應以歐盟或其他國家主要食品安全標準為參照。"},{"start":29674.42,"end":29679.42,"text":"訂定符合總量管制標準不得僅管制單一指標物質。"},{"start":29679.42,"end":29682.42,"text":"二、前向衛生標準制定定或修正。"},{"start":29682.42,"end":29687.42,"text":"應說明與國際標準制差異理由如較國際標準寬鬆。"},{"start":29687.42,"end":29689.42,"text":"應提出科學依據。"},{"start":29689.42,"end":29692.42,"text":"三、莊主管機關應每三年檢討。"},{"start":29692.42,"end":29697.42,"text":"案裡污染物質衛生標準制全面檢討並公告檢討結果。"},{"start":29699.9,"end":29702.56,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員"},{"start":29703.1,"end":29710.42,"text":"食品中污染物質及毒素之衛生標準由莊主管機關電子病醫醫學下列規定辦理"},{"start":29711.44,"end":29723.239999999998,"text":"1. 針對同一家族之複合性污染物質應參照歐盟或其他國際主要食品安全標準訂定複合總量管制標準"},{"start":29723.239999999998,"end":29731.44,"text":"2. 前款衛生標準之訂定或修正因序名與國際標準差異之理由其標準較國際標準寬鬆針一提出"},{"start":29731.44,"end":29738.64,"text":"科學實證依據莊主管機關因每三年辦理污染物質及毒素衛生標準之全面檢討"},{"start":29738.64,"end":29740.64,"text":"並將檢討結果公告知"},{"start":29740.64,"end":29743.64,"text":"委員盧志強等17人提案第8條之一"},{"start":29743.64,"end":29746.64,"text":"委員盧憲義等16人提案第8條之一"},{"start":29746.64,"end":29748.64,"text":"委員徐宇峥等20人提案第8條之一"},{"start":29748.64,"end":29751.64,"text":"委員徐巧芯等17人第8條之一"},{"start":29751.64,"end":29754.64,"text":"委員鄭天才等16人提案第8條之一"},{"start":29754.64,"end":29756.64,"text":"軍與國民黨黨團提案同"},{"start":29760.31,"end":29762.31,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第9條"},{"start":29762.31,"end":29764.31,"text":"修正第二項第三行"},{"start":29764.31,"end":29778.31,"text":"增列並因與每批次出貨後2小時內以電子化方式將下列資訊主動上傳裝主管機關建置之食品追溯系統以下簡稱食安雲"},{"start":29778.31,"end":29781.31,"text":"一產品名稱批號及有效日期"},{"start":29781.31,"end":29786.31,"text":"二出貨對象之名稱統一編號及地址"},{"start":29786.31,"end":29788.31,"text":"三出貨數量及日期"},{"start":29788.31,"end":29792.31,"text":"四所使用原料之主要來源國貨供應商名稱"},{"start":29793.42,"end":29799.42,"text":"同時增列第三項前項電子上傳資料格式及API介面規格"},{"start":29799.42,"end":29801.42,"text":"由裝主管機關公告"},{"start":29801.42,"end":29804.42,"text":"業者應於公告後一年內完成系統介接"},{"start":29804.42,"end":29808.42,"text":"未完成介接前得以人工方式上傳"},{"start":29808.42,"end":29813.42,"text":"但應於公告滿一年後強制採自動化API介接"},{"start":29813.42,"end":29815.42,"text":"不得以人工方式替代"},{"start":29817.73,"end":29825.73,"text":"前項追溯追蹤資料中央主管機關得以查核需要整合財政部電子發票資料"},{"start":29825.73,"end":29831.73,"text":"建立消費端追蹤輔助機制相關跨部會資料共享辦法"},{"start":29831.73,"end":29834.73,"text":"由裝主管機關會同財政部定制"},{"start":29834.73,"end":29839.73,"text":"同時第一原第四五項"},{"start":29839.73,"end":29841.73,"text":"同時增列第七項食品"},{"start":29841.73,"end":29846.73,"text":"業者依本條規定登錄建立申報或開立之資料"},{"start":29846.73,"end":29848.73,"text":"應至少保存五年"},{"start":29851.82,"end":29854.82,"text":"為黃建豪等16人提案第九條"},{"start":29855.18,"end":29856.18,"text":"第三項"},{"start":29856.77,"end":29863.77,"text":"前項電子上傳資料格式及應用程式介面API規格由裝主管機關公告知"},{"start":29863.77,"end":29869.77,"text":"業者應於公告後一年內完成系統介接未完成介接前得以人工方式上傳"},{"start":29869.77,"end":29873.77,"text":"但限期介買後應強制採行自動化介接"},{"start":29875.63,"end":29878.63,"text":"裝主管機關未立前二項系統知"},{"start":29878.63,"end":29884.63,"text":"查核得整合財政部知電子發票資料建立消費端追蹤輔助機制"},{"start":29884.63,"end":29891.63,"text":"其跨部會資料共享及相關辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定制"},{"start":29891.97,"end":29896.97,"text":"其與國民黨提案通委員李彥秀等二三人提案第九條"},{"start":29897.72,"end":29903.72,"text":"第四項第二行修正為追蹤及第七條第三項至自主檢驗結果"},{"start":29903.72,"end":29907.72,"text":"第四行修正為資料與自主檢驗至結果"},{"start":29907.72,"end":29912.72,"text":"第五行修正為頓號格式頓號規格及內容由裝主管機關定制"},{"start":29912.72,"end":29914.72,"text":"其與現行打通"},{"start":29917.13,"end":29920.13,"text":"文羅志強等十七人提案第九條"},{"start":29920.13,"end":29923.13,"text":"文盧憲一等十六人提案第九條委員"},{"start":29927.83,"end":29929.83,"text":"徐巧芯等十七人提案第九條"},{"start":29929.83,"end":29932.83,"text":"文正天才等十六人提案第九條"},{"start":29932.83,"end":29935.83,"text":"均與國民黨黨團提案通"},{"start":29940.55,"end":29943.55,"text":"文徐與真等二十人提案第九條"},{"start":29943.55,"end":29947.55,"text":"第四項序文修正為第二項"},{"start":29947.55,"end":29949.55,"text":"其與國民黨提案通"},{"start":29949.55,"end":29953.55,"text":"文王立民等二十五人提案第九條"},{"start":29953.55,"end":29955.55,"text":"第四項第三行修正為"},{"start":29956.09,"end":29959.09,"text":"資料及足資識別批次資料"},{"start":29959.09,"end":29961.09,"text":"裝主管機關應將前開資料與"},{"start":29961.09,"end":29966.09,"text":"一第七條至一第四項申報之檢驗結果及批次識別資料"},{"start":29966.09,"end":29970.09,"text":"相互連結辦理勾集分析及異常預警"},{"start":29972.95,"end":29975.95,"text":"第五項第三行修正為批次識別方式"},{"start":29975.95,"end":29979.95,"text":"檢驗結果與來源及流向資料之連結勾集"},{"start":29979.95,"end":29981.95,"text":"其與現行法同"},{"start":29988.48,"end":29991.48,"text":"文劉建國等十九人提案第十一條"},{"start":29991.48,"end":29995.48,"text":"增列第二項前項衛生管理人員負責食品"},{"start":29995.48,"end":29999.48,"text":"衛生管理之日常執行及內部管理"},{"start":29999.48,"end":30003.48,"text":"其與第十二條及第十二條之一所定專業人員之職"},{"start":30003.48,"end":30005.48,"text":"則不得互相取代"},{"start":30007.93,"end":30010.93,"text":"其與現行法同為劉建國等十九人提案第十二條"},{"start":30010.93,"end":30013.93,"text":"第一項第四行增加頓號公共衛生"},{"start":30013.93,"end":30019.93,"text":"同時增列第二項前項食品業者應配置之專業人員"},{"start":30019.93,"end":30025.93,"text":"應依食品業者之業別規模及風險程度配置食品技師"},{"start":30025.93,"end":30031.93,"text":"公共衛生師及其他金裝主管機關認定之相關專業人員"},{"start":30032.16,"end":30038.16,"text":"第三項食品技師主要負責食品製程安全食品品質管理"},{"start":30038.16,"end":30043.16,"text":"危害分析食品安全管制系統及食品技術風險管理"},{"start":30043.16,"end":30048.16,"text":"公共衛生師主要負責食品安全健康風險調查"},{"start":30048.16,"end":30054.16,"text":"食品暴露分析流行病學分析環境健康風險評估及健康影響評估"},{"start":30055.11,"end":30059.11,"text":"同時第一原第二項至第四項修正"},{"start":30059.33,"end":30063.33,"text":"為前項應聘用專業人員之設置配置比例"},{"start":30064.41,"end":30066.41,"text":"其餘現行法通"},{"start":30067.64,"end":30070.64,"text":"文靈建國等19人提案第12條之一"},{"start":30071.82,"end":30078.82,"text":"金裝主管機關公告知高風險食品業者一定規模以上食品業者或特定食品業別"},{"start":30078.82,"end":30082.82,"text":"應就食品安全管理計劃及其執行情形"},{"start":30082.82,"end":30087.82,"text":"取得食品安全專業簽證前項專業簽證因醫事項性質"},{"start":30087.82,"end":30093.82,"text":"由食品技師公共衛生師或其他依法具備專業資格之人員辦理"},{"start":30093.82,"end":30098.82,"text":"設置設計食品製程食品品質及食品技術風險者"},{"start":30098.82,"end":30104.82,"text":"應有食品技師簽證設計食品鋪路流行病學健康風險及健康影響評估者"},{"start":30104.82,"end":30111.82,"text":"應有公共衛生師簽證設計食品製程安全與人體健康風險之重大貨"},{"start":30111.82,"end":30115.82,"text":"高風險事項應有食品技師或公共衛生師共同簽證"},{"start":30115.82,"end":30120.82,"text":"前項應辦理專業簽證之食品業者類別規模風險分級"},{"start":30120.82,"end":30125.82,"text":"簽證事項簽證方式有效期間及其他應遵行事項"},{"start":30125.82,"end":30127.82,"text":"由金裝主管機關定制"},{"start":30128.67,"end":30131.67,"text":"文劉建國等是九人提案第十二條之二"},{"start":30131.67,"end":30136.67,"text":"前項食品業者應配置之專業人員應依食品業者之業別"},{"start":30137.06,"end":30145.06,"text":"規模及風險程度配置食品技師公共衛生師或其他金裝主管機關認定之相關專業人員"},{"start":30145.06,"end":30151.06,"text":"食品技師負責食品製程安全食品品質管理危害分析"},{"start":30151.06,"end":30156.06,"text":"食品安全管制系統及食品技術風險管理"},{"start":30156.06,"end":30160.06,"text":"公共衛生師負責食品安全健康風險調查"},{"start":30160.06,"end":30163.06,"text":"食品鋪路分析流行病學分析"},{"start":30163.06,"end":30166.06,"text":"環境健康風險評估及健康影響評估"},{"start":30167.91,"end":30174.91,"text":"金裝主管機關公告之高風險食品業者一定規模以上食品業者或特定食品業別"},{"start":30174.91,"end":30180.91,"text":"應就食品安全管理計劃及其執行情形取得食品安全專業簽證"},{"start":30180.91,"end":30188.91,"text":"前項專業簽證因事項性質由食品技師公共衛生師或其他依法具備專業資格之人員辦理"},{"start":30188.91,"end":30193.91,"text":"設計食品製程食品品質及食品技術風險者"},{"start":30193.91,"end":30202.91,"text":"應有食品技師簽證設計食品評估流行病學健康風險及健康影響評估者應由公共衛生師簽證"},{"start":30202.91,"end":30212.91,"text":"設計食品製程安全與人體健康風險之重大或高風險事項應由食品技師及公共衛生師共同簽證"},{"start":30212.91,"end":30218.91,"text":"前項應辦理專業簽證之食品業者類別規模風險分級簽證事項簽證方式"},{"start":30218.91,"end":30223.91,"text":"有效期間及其他遵循事項由莊主管機關定制"},{"start":30223.91,"end":30227.91,"text":"辦理前條專業簽證之專業人員應依其風險範圍"},{"start":30227.91,"end":30235.91,"text":"就食品安全管理計畫風險評估風險控制措施及其執行情形進行審查"},{"start":30235.91,"end":30240.91,"text":"確認符合相關法令及專業規範後時的簽證"},{"start":30240.91,"end":30245.91,"text":"專業簽證人員對其簽證範圍內之專業事項應負專業責任"},{"start":30246.73,"end":30254.73,"text":"專業簽證人員執行業務時發現食品業者有重大食品安全風險或可能危害人體健康之情形"},{"start":30254.73,"end":30259.73,"text":"應要求業者限期改善清潔重大者應依規定通報主管機關"},{"start":30259.73,"end":30266.73,"text":"前項通報專業責任簽證記錄保存及其他應遵循事項由莊主管機關定制"},{"start":30268.38,"end":30271.38,"text":"文流建國等市9人提案第12條至3"},{"start":30273.02,"end":30280.02,"text":"莊主管機關應依食品業者之業別規模產品特性消費族群食品危害程度"},{"start":30280.02,"end":30286.02,"text":"供應鏈複雜程度及歷史違規情形建立食品安全風險分級管理制度"},{"start":30287.47,"end":30293.47,"text":"前項風險分級得分為一般風險、中度風險及高度風險"},{"start":30293.47,"end":30297.47,"text":"一般風險食品業者以自主管理及政府監督為原則"},{"start":30297.47,"end":30301.47,"text":"中度風險食品業者應配置食品安全專業人員"},{"start":30301.47,"end":30308.47,"text":"高度風險食品業者應依第12條之一規定辦理食品安全專業簽證"},{"start":30308.47,"end":30313.47,"text":"高度風險食品業者涉及食品製程安全及人體健康風險評估者"},{"start":30313.47,"end":30317.47,"text":"應有食品技師及公共衛生師共同辦理專業簽證"},{"start":30317.47,"end":30323.47,"text":"前四項風險分級之認定基準專業人員配置及其他相關事項"},{"start":30323.47,"end":30325.47,"text":"由莊主管機關定制"},{"start":30325.47,"end":30327.47,"text":"接著宣讀第15條"},{"start":30329.25,"end":30333.25,"text":"委員葛如金等20人提案第15條新增第6項文字如下"},{"start":30333.25,"end":30339.25,"text":"若違反第1項情形中央中央機關應立即整合並公布追溯或追蹤系統資料"},{"start":30339.25,"end":30344.25,"text":"以供查詢並令其市售產品於20小時內下架3日內回收"},{"start":30344.25,"end":30349.25,"text":"於同線刑法委員羅恩蒂芬德17人提案第15條新增第6項文字為"},{"start":30349.25,"end":30353.25,"text":"國內外各地方主管機關依科學實證"},{"start":30353.25,"end":30360.25,"text":"與監測發生第1項第6款食品中原子塵或礦石能污染超過安全容許量之標準案例"},{"start":30360.25,"end":30369.25,"text":"應立即停止該產區該類食物及其加工地韓非該產區等相關食品進口"},{"start":30369.25,"end":30376.25,"text":"國內經確認由此個案政府應負照護責任並主動向廠商及出去相關證明文件"},{"start":30376.25,"end":30379.25,"text":"國家請求損害賠償於同線刑法"},{"start":30379.71,"end":30386.71,"text":"文王一名等17人提案第15條新增第6項第一句句末原知情行修正為行行者"},{"start":30386.71,"end":30393.71,"text":"第二句文字修正為立即會診並公布追溯或追蹤系統相關資料"},{"start":30393.71,"end":30399.71,"text":"第三句文字修正為並令該市售產品與通文格如軍等提案"},{"start":30401.91,"end":30403.91,"text":"多謝您收睇時局新聞,再會!"},{"start":30404.9,"end":30410.9,"text":"羅志強等17人提案文石玉珍等20人提案文徐巧芯等17人提案文鄭天才等16人提案"},{"start":30410.9,"end":30416.9,"text":"第22條暫定第10款文字為主要原料知原產帝國原第10款"},{"start":30418.42,"end":30420.42,"text":"第1為第11款"},{"start":30420.83,"end":30422.83,"text":"第5項新增文字乳上"},{"start":30423.63,"end":30433.63,"text":"第1項第10款說稱主要原料只佔食品種種料50%以上或依其性質足以影響消費者知情權益選擇權之特定核心原料"},{"start":30433.63,"end":30440.63,"text":"其品項標示方式與稀產地防範基準油裝主管機關定制於同線刑法"},{"start":30440.63,"end":30443.63,"text":"文章加俊等28人提案文石玉珍等16人提案"},{"start":30443.63,"end":30446.63,"text":"第22條修正第1項第10款文字如下"},{"start":30446.63,"end":30447.63,"text":"文字如下"},{"start":30447.63,"end":30452.63,"text":"內容物主成分屬農產品者其原料知原產帝國"},{"start":30454.01,"end":30460.01,"text":"修正第1項第10款文字如下其他金裝主管機關公告事項與同線刑法"},{"start":30460.01,"end":30465.01,"text":"文書清全等23人提案第22條修正第1項第10款文字如下"},{"start":30465.01,"end":30476.01,"text":"含有已行受體數食品及食品原料知容器或外包裝因明顯字體標註在食品或食品原料品牌名稱下方"},{"start":30476.01,"end":30479.01,"text":"其產品銷售陳列行列位置應有明顯"},{"start":30480.74,"end":30482.74,"text":"告示牌字體告示"},{"start":30483.55,"end":30485.55,"text":"含有已行受體數"},{"start":30485.92,"end":30487.92,"text":"原第10款第1為第11款"},{"start":30489.36,"end":30498.36,"text":"修正第3項文字為第1項第8款至第10款標示之因遵行事項有中央主管機關公告之與同線刑法"},{"start":30498.36,"end":30509.36,"text":"文5少林等17人提案第22條第1項第10款為含已行受體數真肉品及其相關產製品原第10款"},{"start":30509.36,"end":30516.36,"text":"第1為第11款修正第3項文字為第1項第8款第9款及第10款標示之"},{"start":30516.36,"end":30521.36,"text":"因遵行事項牛裝主管機關公告之與同線刑法"},{"start":30521.36,"end":30532.36,"text":"文羅志強調9人提案文王玉米等17人提案文黃千豪等16人提案第22條修正第1項第10款含已行受體數原第10款第1為第11款"},{"start":30533.55,"end":30542.55,"text":"與同維翁少林等提案文盧明哲等16人提案第22條修正第1項第10款為含已行受體數真肉品及其相關"},{"start":30543.63,"end":30551.63,"text":"產製品應高市健康風險盡予及僅是圖樣原第10款第1為第11款與同線刑法"},{"start":30553.25,"end":30559.25,"text":"文林千傑等19人提案第2項條修正第1項第6款文字為原產帝國"},{"start":30564.98,"end":30579.98,"text":"肉類者應標示該肉類原產帝國與同線刑法文王之豪的23天第22條修正第1項第10款為食用注意事項或嬰幼兒食品等其他警語原第10款第1為第11款"},{"start":30581.26,"end":30584.26,"text":"第1項第8款第10款"},{"start":30585.24,"end":30587.24,"text":"標示之應遵行事項"},{"start":30587.24,"end":30590.24,"text":"由中央主管機關公告之與同線刑法"},{"start":30591.55,"end":30593.55,"text":"為劉鎮國等19人提案"},{"start":30593.55,"end":30596.55,"text":"第22條修正第1項第2款文字"},{"start":30596.55,"end":30603.55,"text":"如下原產帝國加工食品應標示其主要食品原料之原產帝國"},{"start":30603.55,"end":30610.55,"text":"第2項前項第2款內容物之主成分應標明所佔百分比"},{"start":30610.55,"end":30614.55,"text":"並因標示之產品主成分項目標示內容"},{"start":30615.58,"end":30619.58,"text":"方式及各該產品實施日期由中央主管機關令定制"},{"start":30619.58,"end":30621.58,"text":"第3項文就是這樣"},{"start":30621.51,"end":30628.51,"text":"第1項第6款所稱主要食品原料其認定標示內容標示方式適用範圍"},{"start":30629.44,"end":30637.44,"text":"問何原料之標示方式品名標示或宣稱涉及特定食品原料之標示規定"},{"start":30637.44,"end":30641.44,"text":"及其他與主要食品原料來源標示有關之"},{"start":30641.44,"end":30645.44,"text":"應遵行事項由中央主管機關定制與同線刑法"},{"start":30646.47,"end":30648.47,"text":"委員黃靜豪等續留言提案第22條"},{"start":30648.47,"end":30652.47,"text":"修正內項第10款為主要原料之原產帝國"},{"start":30653.01,"end":30662.01,"text":"原第10款第1為第11款修正第5項文字為第1項第10款所稱主要原料"},{"start":30662.01,"end":30670.01,"text":"只佔食品總重量50%以上或依其性質足以影響消費者知情權或選擇權制特定核心原料"},{"start":30670.01,"end":30676.01,"text":"其適用品項標示方式及防範原產帝包事實不實之基準"},{"start":30676.01,"end":30682.01,"text":"由中央主管機關定制與同線刑法文爐現一等16人提案"},{"start":30681.92,"end":30684.92,"text":"第22條修正第1項第6款為原產帝國"},{"start":30686.36,"end":30692.36,"text":"原料原產帝標示方式認定標準及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":30692.36,"end":30693.36,"text":"修正第1項"},{"start":30693.99,"end":30701.99,"text":"第10款文字如下主要原料之原產帝國修正第1項第11款文字"},{"start":30702.56,"end":30707.56,"text":"食品品名包裝宣稱或其廣告設計原住民族特定部落"},{"start":30708.04,"end":30711.04,"text":"原鄉地區或原住民族傳統特色"},{"start":30711.59,"end":30718.59,"text":"農產品者其核心原料因明確標示其原產地區行政區域或部落名稱"},{"start":30718.59,"end":30732.59,"text":"非使用台灣原鄉地區生產之同品類原料者不得以品名包裝宣稱或廣告中使用原鄉部落或原住民族特色傳統特色農產品滋養"},{"start":30733.93,"end":30745.93,"text":"前段所真原住民族傳統特色農產品之品項認定基準及標示辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定制原第11款"},{"start":30747.48,"end":30757.48,"text":"第12款新增第5項第1項第10款所稱主要原料只佔食品種種量50%以上或以其性質"},{"start":30757.48,"end":30769.48,"text":"足以影響消費者知情權或選擇權之特定核心原料其品項標示方式及席選地防範基準由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":30769.48,"end":30771.48,"text":"為那我想等18人提案"},{"start":30771.83,"end":30780.83,"text":"第24條修正第一項第10款文字為具有乙型受體素食品添加物支援料原第11款第一為第11款"},{"start":30781.84,"end":30797.84,"text":"修正第二項文字為食品添加物支援料不受前項第3款第7款及第9款之限制前項第3款食品添加物支香料成分第9款及第10款標示因遵行事項由中央主管機關公告之魚頭現行法"},{"start":30798.83,"end":30802.83,"text":"為羅志強的2900案第24條修正第一項第10款文字為"},{"start":30804.45,"end":30821.45,"text":"含乙型受體素食品添加物支援料原第10款第一為第11款魚頭現行法文黃金豪等學論提案第24條修正第一項第10款文字為含乙型受體素支食品添加物及其原料修正第二項第三句文字為"},{"start":30822.45,"end":30827.45,"text":"香料成分及第9款東號第10款標示魚頭為原"},{"start":30828.19,"end":30829.19,"text":"那我想等提案"},{"start":30830.59,"end":30837.59,"text":"文王玉明等17人提案第24條第二項第3句文字修正為香料成分東號第9款及"},{"start":30837.59,"end":30843.59,"text":"甄烈第4項文字為第5款警標是國內複折廠商名稱者"},{"start":30844.76,"end":30852.76,"text":"英槍製造廠商受託製造廠商或輸入廠商之名稱電話碼機地址通報轄區主管機關"},{"start":30853.69,"end":30863.69,"text":"主管機關應開放其主管機關其他主管機關共同查閱魚頭尾黃金豪等提案文盧新等16人提案"},{"start":30863.69,"end":30866.69,"text":"第24條就認第一項第8款文字為原"},{"start":30867.71,"end":30872.71,"text":"產帝國金家公貨混配之食品添加物"},{"start":30873.23,"end":30884.23,"text":"除最終製造地外應一併標示其具有功能性之主要化學成分或天然提取物資原產帝國與同現行法"},{"start":30887.31,"end":30889.300000000003,"text":"文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文章為上等示範提案文"},{"start":30889.85,"end":30892.85,"text":"羅志強的二十九天為王一民等十七天"},{"start":30892.85,"end":30894.129999999997,"text":"第二十五條之一"},{"start":30894.129999999997,"end":30895.41,"text":"文字修正如下"},{"start":30895.41,"end":30899.85,"text":"莊主很機關得對直接供應飲食支場所"},{"start":30899.85,"end":30902.25,"text":"就其供應之特定食品"},{"start":30902.25,"end":30905.41,"text":"要求以中文標示原產地及其他"},{"start":30905.41,"end":30907.93,"text":"應標示事項對特定"},{"start":30907.93,"end":30909.85,"text":"散裝食品販賣者"},{"start":30909.85,"end":30912.769999999997,"text":"得就其販賣之地點方式予以限制"},{"start":30913.33,"end":30915.25,"text":"或要求以中文標示品名"},{"start":30916.43,"end":30917.11,"text":"原產地"},{"start":30918.8,"end":30921.079999999998,"text":"基因改造食品原料"},{"start":30921.079999999998,"end":30922.8,"text":"含乙型受體素"},{"start":30922.8,"end":30924.6,"text":"製造日期或有效日期"},{"start":30924.6,"end":30927.28,"text":"其他其他應標示事項"},{"start":30927.28,"end":30930.399999999998,"text":"國內通過農產品生產驗證者"},{"start":30930.399999999998,"end":30933.12,"text":"應標示可追溯之來源"},{"start":30933.12,"end":30937.079999999998,"text":"由中央農業主管機關公告之生產系統者"},{"start":30937.079999999998,"e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