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請問這座的委員們"},{"start":1679.28,"end":1680.64,"text":"對於上次的會議紀錄"},{"start":1680.64,"end":1682.44,"text":"有沒有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1683.0800000000002,"end":1685.44,"text":"好 沒有的話我們由議事錄確定"},{"start":1685.44,"end":1686.16,"text":"那接著呢"},{"start":1686.16,"end":1688,"text":"我就先介紹到場的委員"},{"start":1688,"end":1689.52,"text":"以及應邀列席的官員"},{"start":1689.52,"end":1691.96,"text":"首先先介紹陳昭志委員"},{"start":1692.68,"end":1694.2,"text":"好 吳宗憲委員"},{"start":1695.3799999999999,"end":1697.86,"text":"好 那麼今天應邀列席的官員"},{"start":1697.86,"end":1700.3799999999999,"text":"有司法院的秘書長高秘書長"},{"start":1701.09,"end":1703.77,"text":"而群序部的政務次長懷旭懷次長"},{"start":1703.77,"end":1708.57,"text":"還有這個行政院人事行政總處的"},{"start":1708.57,"end":1710.97,"text":"這個張秋元張副人事長"},{"start":1711.37,"end":1712.97,"text":"好 那其他的官員"},{"start":1712.97,"end":1714.69,"text":"我就不再逐一介紹"},{"start":1714.69,"end":1716.25,"text":"並列入公報紀錄"},{"start":1716.25,"end":1718.8899999999999,"text":"那本次的會議為兩天一次會議"},{"start":1718.8899999999999,"end":1721.33,"text":"議程討論事項總共有五案"},{"start":1721.33,"end":1722.37,"text":"分別為"},{"start":1722.37,"end":1723.81,"text":"病案審查"},{"start":1723.81,"end":1727.1699999999998,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十八人擬具的法院組織法"},{"start":1727.1699999999998,"end":1729.4099999999999,"text":"部分條文修正草案等四案"},{"start":1729.6100000000001,"end":1731.21,"text":"然後第二就是病案審查"},{"start":1731.21,"end":1734.41,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十八人擬具的行政院組織法"},{"start":1734.41,"end":1735.65,"text":"等三案"},{"start":1735.65,"end":1737.93,"text":"然後第三就是病案審查"},{"start":1737.93,"end":1740.2900000000002,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十八人擬具的"},{"start":1740.2900000000002,"end":1743.8100000000002,"text":"智慧財產及商業法院組織法"},{"start":1743.8100000000002,"end":1745.0500000000002,"text":"等三案"},{"start":1745.74,"end":1748.3,"text":"然後以及第四就是病案審查"},{"start":1748.3,"end":1750.06,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十八人擬具的"},{"start":1750.06,"end":1752.78,"text":"少年及家事法院組織法等三案"},{"start":1752.78,"end":1754.14,"text":"然後第五是病案審查"},{"start":1754.14,"end":1756.5800000000002,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十八人擬具的"},{"start":1756.5800000000002,"end":1759.46,"text":"懲戒法院組織法等三案"},{"start":1759.46,"end":1762.18,"text":"那本次會議就僅進行詢答"},{"start":1765.55,"end":1770.35,"text":"因為第二案中的誇號三"},{"start":1770.35,"end":1771.99,"text":"第四案中的誇號三"},{"start":1771.99,"end":1775.27,"text":"及第五案中的誇號三"},{"start":1775.27,"end":1778.67,"text":"並未提出各黨團的不附義同意書"},{"start":1778.67,"end":1781.95,"text":"原因開會通知單所在的"},{"start":1781.95,"end":1783.95,"text":"所載不予審查"},{"start":1786.51,"end":1789.39,"text":"好 那我們就先進行委員提案說明"},{"start":1789.39,"end":1791.8700000000001,"text":"那每位發言時間是三分鐘"},{"start":1791.8700000000001,"end":1794.75,"text":"請提案人先進行提案說明"},{"start":1794.75,"end":1796.67,"text":"吳委員要提起提案說明"},{"start":1796.67,"end":1796.99,"text":"好"},{"start":1801.8,"end":1803.2,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":1803.2,"end":1806.24,"text":"我這邊做提案說明"},{"start":1806.24,"end":1808.6,"text":"我自己過去是司法人員"},{"start":1808.6,"end":1810.8,"text":"所以我一直有一個想法就是說"},{"start":1810.8,"end":1813.04,"text":"有一天我們的司法"},{"start":1813.04,"end":1815.4,"text":"實務上面不會再過勞"},{"start":1815.4,"end":1818.64,"text":"去喚起這種勉強來維持司法正義"},{"start":1818.64,"end":1819.72,"text":"所以從第一個"},{"start":1819.72,"end":1822.28,"text":"我自己擔任立法委員第一個會期開始"},{"start":1822.28,"end":1823.8,"text":"我擔任司法法制的召委"},{"start":1823.8,"end":1826.16,"text":"那立法院史上第一次"},{"start":1826.16,"end":1828.68,"text":"為司法過勞來開公聽會"},{"start":1828.68,"end":1831.12,"text":"所以我當時是請很多基層的法官"},{"start":1831.1599999999999,"end":1832.6799999999998,"text":"檢察官 書記官"},{"start":1832.6799999999998,"end":1833.6799999999998,"text":"到立法院來"},{"start":1833.6799999999998,"end":1835.12,"text":"把整個工作量講出來"},{"start":1835.12,"end":1836.7199999999998,"text":"讓整個國家看到"},{"start":1836.7199999999998,"end":1839.28,"text":"目前這個案件洪流下面"},{"start":1839.28,"end":1842.76,"text":"司法人力吃緊的這個現實狀況"},{"start":1842.76,"end":1845.12,"text":"那接著我再一路去爭取"},{"start":1845.12,"end":1847,"text":"檢察官助理的人力"},{"start":1847,"end":1848.6799999999998,"text":"來去協助打詐"},{"start":1848.6799999999998,"end":1850.3999999999999,"text":"那還有打破28年來"},{"start":1850.3999999999999,"end":1853.32,"text":"一直沒有調漲的書記官的紀錄費"},{"start":1853.32,"end":1855.4799999999998,"text":"我的一切作為就是希望"},{"start":1855.4799999999998,"end":1858.3999999999999,"text":"為我們的司法爭取到最好的環境"},{"start":1858.3999999999999,"end":1860.04,"text":"以及把第一線的"},{"start":1860.08,"end":1862.08,"text":"檔案人力願意留下來"},{"start":1862.08,"end":1863.1599999999999,"text":"因為這幾年"},{"start":1863.1599999999999,"end":1865.8,"text":"我們非常多優秀的法官檢察官"},{"start":1865.8,"end":1867.08,"text":"書記官"},{"start":1867.08,"end":1869.6,"text":"或是其他的院檢同仁"},{"start":1869.6,"end":1871.6,"text":"都陸陸續續的離職"},{"start":1871.6,"end":1874,"text":"他們離職不是對國家失去熱情"},{"start":1874,"end":1876.2,"text":"而他們的離職實在是負荷不了"},{"start":1876.2,"end":1880.12,"text":"現在我們的實務的工作上面的案件量"},{"start":1881.8,"end":1885,"text":"這一次的我修法案組織法"},{"start":1885,"end":1887.08,"text":"其實我就是要把這個想法"},{"start":1887.08,"end":1889.08,"text":"再更具體的制度化"},{"start":1889.08,"end":1890.84,"text":"所以內容包括第一個"},{"start":1890.84,"end":1892.3999999999999,"text":"三等書記官職等"},{"start":1892.3999999999999,"end":1895.28,"text":"從委任四五職等調高到"},{"start":1895.28,"end":1897.28,"text":"建任的六職等"},{"start":1897.28,"end":1899.6799999999998,"text":"然後第二個一二等書記官"},{"start":1899.6799999999998,"end":1902.6399999999999,"text":"佔比從二分之一放寬到三分之二"},{"start":1903.18,"end":1906.18,"text":"第三個 罰金長 副罰金長"},{"start":1906.18,"end":1909.7,"text":"調高到建任七跟八職等"},{"start":1909.7,"end":1912.18,"text":"那我這邊跟司法院的版本"},{"start":1912.18,"end":1913.18,"text":"最大的不一樣是"},{"start":1913.18,"end":1916.38,"text":"我希望連罰金本身都開放建任六等"},{"start":1916.38,"end":1918.18,"text":"不是只有調主管"},{"start":1918.18,"end":1920.18,"text":"這個才能夠真正留住"},{"start":1920.18,"end":1922.18,"text":"第一線的院檢同仁"},{"start":1923.3,"end":1924.9,"text":"最後我不只談過勞"},{"start":1924.9,"end":1926.3,"text":"我還要談安全"},{"start":1926.3,"end":1928.42,"text":"那這幾年我們常看到法院裡面"},{"start":1928.42,"end":1930.78,"text":"發生了很多暴力衝突的新聞"},{"start":1930.78,"end":1931.7,"text":"那這個就是因為"},{"start":1931.7,"end":1934.3,"text":"現行法警的職權搞不清楚"},{"start":1934.3,"end":1935.86,"text":"維安的工具也不足"},{"start":1935.86,"end":1938.3,"text":"它有一個制度上面的破口"},{"start":1938.3,"end":1940.22,"text":"所以這幾年有律師"},{"start":1940.22,"end":1941.22,"text":"有當事人"},{"start":1941.22,"end":1943.1,"text":"有證人在法庭上面"},{"start":1943.1,"end":1945.1,"text":"騷擾甚至受傷"},{"start":1945.09,"end":1946.1299999999999,"text":"好 那"},{"start":1946.59,"end":1947.59,"text":"因為在法警"},{"start":1947.59,"end":1948.59,"text":"它是在司法機關裡面"},{"start":1948.59,"end":1949.59,"text":"維護安全"},{"start":1949.59,"end":1951.59,"text":"維護秩序的這個專業司法警察"},{"start":1951.59,"end":1954.59,"text":"這次修法我就希望把這個洞補起來"},{"start":1954.59,"end":1956.59,"text":"那這個職務內容還包括"},{"start":1956.59,"end":1957.59,"text":"給予他們"},{"start":1957.59,"end":1959.59,"text":"譬如說管束 扣留 安檢 警戒"},{"start":1959.59,"end":1961.59,"text":"戒具使用這個等等的要件"},{"start":1961.59,"end":1963.59,"text":"要把它寫清楚"},{"start":1963.59,"end":1964.59,"text":"配套措施 補償機制"},{"start":1964.59,"end":1966.59,"text":"都要把它明確化"},{"start":1966.59,"end":1967.59,"text":"我們同時也要授權"},{"start":1967.59,"end":1969.59,"text":"司法院 法務部 訂定細則"},{"start":1969.59,"end":1972.59,"text":"讓所有的人有法律依據"},{"start":1972.59,"end":1973.59,"text":"也有比例原則的保障"},{"start":1973.59,"end":1975.59,"text":"大家才敢依法來做事情"},{"start":1975.6299999999999,"end":1976.6299999999999,"text":"我要強調"},{"start":1976.6299999999999,"end":1978.6299999999999,"text":"這個修法不是只替"},{"start":1978.6299999999999,"end":1980.6299999999999,"text":"司法爭取工作條件"},{"start":1980.6299999999999,"end":1981.6299999999999,"text":"也是要讓人民去"},{"start":1981.6299999999999,"end":1983.6299999999999,"text":"幫人民爭取一個"},{"start":1983.6299999999999,"end":1985.6299999999999,"text":"能夠安心伸張正義的"},{"start":1985.6299999999999,"end":1986.6299999999999,"text":"司法環境"},{"start":1986.6299999999999,"end":1988.6299999999999,"text":"因為只有當辦案的人"},{"start":1988.6299999999999,"end":1989.6299999999999,"text":"不被拖垮"},{"start":1989.6299999999999,"end":1990.6299999999999,"text":"不被過牢"},{"start":1990.6299999999999,"end":1992.6299999999999,"text":"當法警有足夠的權限"},{"start":1992.6299999999999,"end":1994.6299999999999,"text":"守住法院地檢署的安全"},{"start":1994.6299999999999,"end":1996.6299999999999,"text":"才能讓每一個走進"},{"start":1996.6299999999999,"end":1997.6299999999999,"text":"法院地檢署"},{"start":1997.6299999999999,"end":1998.6299999999999,"text":"爭取公平正義的"},{"start":1998.6299999999999,"end":2000.6299999999999,"text":"當事人 證人 被害人"},{"start":2000.6299999999999,"end":2002.6299999999999,"text":"能夠真正安全放心的"},{"start":2002.6299999999999,"end":2003.6299999999999,"text":"在法庭"},{"start":2003.6299999999999,"end":2004.6299999999999,"text":"在偵查庭裡面"},{"start":2004.67,"end":2005.67,"text":"講真話"},{"start":2005.67,"end":2006.67,"text":"然後來得到正義"},{"start":2006.67,"end":2007.67,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2023.86,"end":2025.86,"text":"我們請提案人翁曉琳委員"},{"start":2025.86,"end":2026.86,"text":"做提案說明"},{"start":2030.44,"end":2032.44,"text":"主席還有在座的委員"},{"start":2032.44,"end":2033.44,"text":"還有各位官員大家好"},{"start":2033.44,"end":2035.44,"text":"那本期這次所提出的"},{"start":2035.44,"end":2037.44,"text":"有關於修正法院組織法"},{"start":2037.44,"end":2038.44,"text":"等等的這幾個案子"},{"start":2038.44,"end":2039.44,"text":"主要就是"},{"start":2039.44,"end":2040.44,"text":"也是考量到"},{"start":2040.44,"end":2041.44,"text":"書記官還有法警"},{"start":2041.44,"end":2042.44,"text":"他們現在的工作"},{"start":2042.44,"end":2045.44,"text":"是比早期"},{"start":2045.44,"end":2047.44,"text":"前十幾年以來"},{"start":2047.44,"end":2048.44,"text":"要更為的沉重"},{"start":2048.44,"end":2049.44,"text":"主要也是因為"},{"start":2049.44,"end":2051.44,"text":"我們透過很多的修法"},{"start":2051.44,"end":2053.44,"text":"其實也賦予"},{"start":2053.44,"end":2055.44,"text":"這個法院更多的"},{"start":2055.44,"end":2057.44,"text":"職責職務"},{"start":2057.44,"end":2058.44,"text":"所以呢 那因為"},{"start":2058.48,"end":2060.48,"text":"他們的整個的工作"},{"start":2060.48,"end":2062.48,"text":"負擔加大"},{"start":2062.48,"end":2063.48,"text":"那當然對於"},{"start":2063.48,"end":2064.48,"text":"這個相對應的"},{"start":2064.48,"end":2065.48,"text":"像薪資待遇"},{"start":2065.48,"end":2067.48,"text":"還有在執政申請的部分"},{"start":2067.48,"end":2068.48,"text":"我們都應該要"},{"start":2068.48,"end":2070.48,"text":"給予更多的支持跟協助"},{"start":2070.48,"end":2071.48,"text":"那麼所以呢"},{"start":2071.48,"end":2072.48,"text":"在這一次"},{"start":2072.48,"end":2074.48,"text":"我們總共修了"},{"start":2074.48,"end":2075.48,"text":"好幾個不同"},{"start":2075.48,"end":2077.48,"text":"都涉及到法院組織法的"},{"start":2077.48,"end":2079.48,"text":"這個相關的條文"},{"start":2079.48,"end":2081.48,"text":"那除了法院組織法之外"},{"start":2081.48,"end":2083.48,"text":"還有像是這個"},{"start":2083.48,"end":2084.48,"text":"行政院"},{"start":2084.48,"end":2085.48,"text":"行政法院的組織法"},{"start":2085.48,"end":2086.48,"text":"以及智慧財產商業"},{"start":2086.48,"end":2087.48,"text":"法院組織法"},{"start":2087.52,"end":2088.52,"text":"等等"},{"start":2088.52,"end":2089.52,"text":"那其目的"},{"start":2089.52,"end":2090.52,"text":"基本上都是"},{"start":2090.52,"end":2091.52,"text":"要將這個"},{"start":2091.52,"end":2092.52,"text":"目前服務於"},{"start":2092.52,"end":2094.52,"text":"這些不同法院的"},{"start":2094.52,"end":2095.52,"text":"書記官和法警"},{"start":2095.52,"end":2096.52,"text":"他們的職等"},{"start":2096.52,"end":2098.52,"text":"要向上提升"},{"start":2098.52,"end":2099.52,"text":"那麼當然在"},{"start":2099.52,"end":2101.52,"text":"司法院基本上"},{"start":2101.52,"end":2103.52,"text":"也是支持像這樣"},{"start":2103.52,"end":2105.52,"text":"我們這次所提出的修法"},{"start":2105.52,"end":2106.52,"text":"那麼主要我們"},{"start":2106.52,"end":2107.52,"text":"跟司法院的版本"},{"start":2107.52,"end":2109.52,"text":"比較不同的地方是說"},{"start":2109.52,"end":2110.52,"text":"在法警的部分"},{"start":2110.52,"end":2112.52,"text":"那麼法警因為目前"},{"start":2112.52,"end":2113.52,"text":"都還是屬於"},{"start":2113.52,"end":2114.52,"text":"比較基層的人員"},{"start":2114.52,"end":2116.52,"text":"那他們的職等"},{"start":2116.52,"end":2118.56,"text":"是從三職等"},{"start":2119.86,"end":2120.86,"text":"到現在的五職等"},{"start":2120.86,"end":2121.86,"text":"那在這次"},{"start":2121.86,"end":2122.86,"text":"原來司法院的版本裡面"},{"start":2122.86,"end":2123.86,"text":"他們基本上"},{"start":2123.86,"end":2124.86,"text":"並沒有提出"},{"start":2124.86,"end":2126.86,"text":"就是可以在更進一階的"},{"start":2126.86,"end":2127.86,"text":"調升到"},{"start":2127.86,"end":2129.86,"text":"這個鑑任的六職等"},{"start":2129.86,"end":2130.86,"text":"那本期在這裡"},{"start":2130.86,"end":2131.86,"text":"是提出就是"},{"start":2131.86,"end":2133.86,"text":"可以將法警的職等"},{"start":2133.86,"end":2137.86,"text":"再往上更進一階"},{"start":2137.86,"end":2138.86,"text":"也就是從現在的"},{"start":2138.86,"end":2139.86,"text":"這個委任的"},{"start":2139.86,"end":2141.86,"text":"三職等可以到"},{"start":2141.86,"end":2142.86,"text":"鑑任的六職等"},{"start":2142.86,"end":2143.86,"text":"那麼基本上"},{"start":2143.86,"end":2146.86,"text":"我想對於整個法院"},{"start":2147.75,"end":2149.75,"text":"司法人員的過勞的問題"},{"start":2149.75,"end":2151.75,"text":"我們都非常的重視"},{"start":2151.75,"end":2152.75,"text":"那麼我們也希望"},{"start":2152.75,"end":2154.75,"text":"透過這次的人力的"},{"start":2154.75,"end":2156.75,"text":"職等的調升"},{"start":2156.75,"end":2158.75,"text":"可以讓我們司法的人員"},{"start":2158.75,"end":2159.75,"text":"得到一些"},{"start":2159.75,"end":2161.75,"text":"實質上的一些支持"},{"start":2161.75,"end":2163.75,"text":"那麼我們也希望"},{"start":2163.75,"end":2165.75,"text":"透過像這樣的一個做法"},{"start":2165.75,"end":2167.75,"text":"未來能夠進一步的改善"},{"start":2167.75,"end":2168.75,"text":"整個司法工作的環境"},{"start":2168.75,"end":2169.75,"text":"好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":2188.15,"end":2189.15,"text":"接下來呢"},{"start":2189.15,"end":2191.15,"text":"我們就請機關代表報告"},{"start":2191.15,"end":2193.15,"text":"那每位發言時間是三分鐘"},{"start":2193.15,"end":2194.15,"text":"首先我們先有請"},{"start":2194.15,"end":2195.15,"text":"司法院的秘書長"},{"start":2195.15,"end":2196.15,"text":"高金志 高秘書長"},{"start":2196.15,"end":2198.15,"text":"來進行說明 謝謝"},{"start":2204.1,"end":2207.1,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進"},{"start":2207.1,"end":2209.1,"text":"今天封邀列席委員會"},{"start":2209.1,"end":2211.1,"text":"就委員 翁委員"},{"start":2211.1,"end":2214.1,"text":"還有王玉明委員 羅志祥委員"},{"start":2214.1,"end":2215.1,"text":"吳宗憲委員等"},{"start":2215.1,"end":2217.1,"text":"所提出來法院組織法"},{"start":2217.1,"end":2218.1,"text":"還有行政法院"},{"start":2218.1,"end":2220.1,"text":"等專業法院組織法"},{"start":2221.5299999999997,"end":2222.5299999999997,"text":"修正草案"},{"start":2222.5299999999997,"end":2224.5299999999997,"text":"代表本院進行報告"},{"start":2224.5299999999997,"end":2225.5299999999997,"text":"並被質詢"},{"start":2225.5299999999997,"end":2227.5299999999997,"text":"請說明本院意見如下"},{"start":2227.5299999999997,"end":2228.5299999999997,"text":"進行指教"},{"start":2228.5299999999997,"end":2230.5299999999997,"text":"首先非常感謝"},{"start":2230.5299999999997,"end":2232.5299999999997,"text":"委員們重視我們"},{"start":2232.5299999999997,"end":2233.5299999999997,"text":"書記官"},{"start":2233.5299999999997,"end":2234.5299999999997,"text":"還有法警"},{"start":2234.5299999999997,"end":2236.5299999999997,"text":"他們的工作環境"},{"start":2236.5299999999997,"end":2237.5299999999997,"text":"以及職等"},{"start":2237.5299999999997,"end":2239.5299999999997,"text":"我相信這個"},{"start":2239.5299999999997,"end":2240.5299999999997,"text":"寫案司法"},{"start":2240.5299999999997,"end":2242.5299999999997,"text":"應該是大家都同意的一句話了"},{"start":2242.5299999999997,"end":2244.5299999999997,"text":"那除了司法院的努力外"},{"start":2244.5299999999997,"end":2247.5299999999997,"text":"可是我們對於這個職等"},{"start":2247.5299999999997,"end":2250.5299999999997,"text":"還有這個工作內容"},{"start":2250.57,"end":2251.57,"text":"在組織法上"},{"start":2251.57,"end":2253.57,"text":"如同剛剛委員們所提的"},{"start":2253.57,"end":2254.57,"text":"並沒有完整"},{"start":2254.57,"end":2257.57,"text":"所以我們非常感謝"},{"start":2257.57,"end":2260.57,"text":"委員們提出這樣的修正草案"},{"start":2260.57,"end":2263.57,"text":"那在這個修正草案裡面"},{"start":2263.57,"end":2265.57,"text":"非常感謝真的委員們"},{"start":2265.57,"end":2266.57,"text":"對於書記官"},{"start":2267.9,"end":2268.9,"text":"工作"},{"start":2268.9,"end":2270.9,"text":"這個職務列等"},{"start":2270.9,"end":2272.9,"text":"其實最重要是要暢通他們申請管道"},{"start":2272.9,"end":2274.9,"text":"我們要留用優秀的人才"},{"start":2274.9,"end":2276.9,"text":"還有謝謝委員們"},{"start":2276.9,"end":2278.9,"text":"提升法警職等"},{"start":2278.9,"end":2280.9,"text":"然後在這個法案裡面"},{"start":2280.9,"end":2282.9,"text":"也來強化分組編制"},{"start":2282.9,"end":2284.9,"text":"來明文賦予"},{"start":2284.9,"end":2286.9,"text":"這個法警的執法權限"},{"start":2286.9,"end":2288.9,"text":"最重要是要維護院檢"},{"start":2288.9,"end":2290.9,"text":"安全秩序"},{"start":2290.9,"end":2293.9,"text":"維護當事人在法院裡面"},{"start":2293.9,"end":2295.9,"text":"如同剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":2295.9,"end":2297.94,"text":"一個安全的"},{"start":2299.48,"end":2301.48,"text":"完成他在司法程序裡面"},{"start":2301.48,"end":2303.48,"text":"該有的安全環境"},{"start":2303.48,"end":2305.48,"text":"那另外最重要的是"},{"start":2305.48,"end":2307.48,"text":"在法庭秩序的處罰"},{"start":2307.48,"end":2309.48,"text":"我們要及時化成疾化"},{"start":2309.48,"end":2313.48,"text":"讓法官在法庭秩序的維護上"},{"start":2313.48,"end":2317.48,"text":"能夠有一個很明確的依據"},{"start":2317.48,"end":2319.48,"text":"能夠強化法庭秩序"},{"start":2319.48,"end":2321.48,"text":"如同委員所說的"},{"start":2321.48,"end":2323.48,"text":"這個都是關係到"},{"start":2323.48,"end":2326.48,"text":"民眾在法院"},{"start":2326.48,"end":2327.52,"text":"他在"},{"start":2328.31,"end":2331.31,"text":"訴訟程序中所應該有的尊重"},{"start":2331.31,"end":2333.31,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":2333.31,"end":2335.31,"text":"那也還要再次謝謝委員們"},{"start":2335.31,"end":2337.31,"text":"支持我們司法院的工作同仁"},{"start":2337.31,"end":2339.31,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2340.18,"end":2342.18,"text":"好 謝謝高秘書長"},{"start":2342.18,"end":2344.18,"text":"那接下來我們就有請"},{"start":2344.18,"end":2346.18,"text":"全序部的淮次長進行說明"},{"start":2349.04,"end":2350.04,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士"},{"start":2350.04,"end":2351.04,"text":"今天大家早安"},{"start":2351.04,"end":2352.04,"text":"那今天大院審查"},{"start":2352.04,"end":2354.04,"text":"翁曉林委員等18年凝聚的"},{"start":2354.04,"end":2356.04,"text":"司法院組織法部"},{"start":2356.04,"end":2358.04,"text":"部門調明區的查問等16案"},{"start":2358.04,"end":2360.04,"text":"那這個案子整個方向上面"},{"start":2360.04,"end":2361.04,"text":"考試院跟全序部"},{"start":2361.04,"end":2364.04,"text":"都在這一次的包括"},{"start":2364.04,"end":2366.04,"text":"書記官跟護華警長"},{"start":2366.04,"end":2368.04,"text":"兼任僑隊長這部門"},{"start":2368.04,"end":2369.04,"text":"我們都全力以以支持"},{"start":2369.04,"end":2371.04,"text":"那這個案子在上個禮拜"},{"start":2371.04,"end":2372.04,"text":"因為這需要"},{"start":2372.04,"end":2374.04,"text":"兩院會諢或三院會諢的"},{"start":2374.04,"end":2377.04,"text":"已經經過考試院已經通過"},{"start":2377.04,"end":2378.04,"text":"那主要有三個意見"},{"start":2378.08,"end":2380.08,"text":"第一個那個書記官的部分"},{"start":2380.08,"end":2382.08,"text":"調整部分我們建議"},{"start":2382.08,"end":2384.08,"text":"為了其他的在人事法制上明確"},{"start":2384.08,"end":2387.08,"text":"因此建議在相關的條文後面明寫"},{"start":2387.08,"end":2389.08,"text":"那個在三等書記官"},{"start":2389.08,"end":2391.08,"text":"總員的三二分之一的"},{"start":2391.08,"end":2393.08,"text":"列兼任第六職等"},{"start":2393.08,"end":2395.08,"text":"那法院組織法部分"},{"start":2395.08,"end":2397.08,"text":"因為正列的第114條"},{"start":2397.08,"end":2399.08,"text":"之三有關於"},{"start":2399.08,"end":2401.08,"text":"本次修正第28條規定"},{"start":2401.08,"end":2403.08,"text":"那修正前十日前已經"},{"start":2403.08,"end":2404.08,"text":"在職的人員"},{"start":2404.08,"end":2405.08,"text":"那因為如果萬一"},{"start":2405.08,"end":2406.08,"text":"沒有具有任用資格"},{"start":2406.08,"end":2407.08,"text":"在修正後呢"},{"start":2407.12,"end":2408.12,"text":"可以繼續留用"},{"start":2408.12,"end":2409.12,"text":"那相關的體力條文"},{"start":2409.12,"end":2410.12,"text":"我們建議修正為"},{"start":2410.12,"end":2411.12,"text":"本法等等等"},{"start":2411.12,"end":2413.12,"text":"那施行前已經在職的"},{"start":2413.12,"end":2414.12,"text":"現職人員"},{"start":2414.12,"end":2417.12,"text":"未具修正後職務任用相關資格者"},{"start":2417.12,"end":2418.12,"text":"而繼續留用"},{"start":2418.12,"end":2421.12,"text":"原職稱員官等職務"},{"start":2421.12,"end":2422.12,"text":"至離職為止"},{"start":2422.12,"end":2424.12,"text":"這樣讓法制上更為完備"},{"start":2424.12,"end":2426.12,"text":"那另外因為懲戒法院組織法"},{"start":2426.12,"end":2427.12,"text":"第七條因為只有"},{"start":2427.12,"end":2428.12,"text":"是法警跟"},{"start":2428.12,"end":2430.12,"text":"法警長跟法警職務"},{"start":2430.12,"end":2431.12,"text":"那中間沒有一個"},{"start":2431.12,"end":2432.12,"text":"法護法警長登天"},{"start":2432.12,"end":2434.12,"text":"這部分我們建議"},{"start":2434.12,"end":2436.12,"text":"請司法院來重新再考慮一下"},{"start":2436.16,"end":2438.16,"text":"那另外因為整部的法院組織法"},{"start":2438.16,"end":2440.16,"text":"因為它是屬於那個"},{"start":2440.16,"end":2442.16,"text":"把所有的官等職等"},{"start":2442.16,"end":2444.16,"text":"都全部定在法律上面"},{"start":2444.16,"end":2446.16,"text":"那事實上在行政院主改以後"},{"start":2446.16,"end":2447.16,"text":"包括考試院或行政院"},{"start":2447.16,"end":2448.16,"text":"相關的組織法律"},{"start":2448.16,"end":2450.16,"text":"目前都是改以編制表來定定"},{"start":2450.16,"end":2452.16,"text":"那這部分我們也請司法院來參考"},{"start":2452.16,"end":2454.16,"text":"以後未來在相關部分上面"},{"start":2454.16,"end":2456.16,"text":"會讓它的組織調整上面"},{"start":2456.16,"end":2457.16,"text":"會更加彈性"},{"start":2457.16,"end":2459.16,"text":"這也請司法院參考"},{"start":2459.16,"end":2460.16,"text":"那這次大概"},{"start":2460.16,"end":2461.16,"text":"委員的提案條文"},{"start":2461.16,"end":2463.16,"text":"委員跟目前我們三院"},{"start":2463.16,"end":2465.16,"text":"或兩院會先送到立法會"},{"start":2465.2,"end":2467.2,"text":"要送到立法院的條文"},{"start":2467.2,"end":2469.2,"text":"大概唯一差別是在於說"},{"start":2469.2,"end":2471.2,"text":"這次呢那個因為法警部分"},{"start":2471.2,"end":2473.2,"text":"有委員提案建議修正為"},{"start":2473.2,"end":2475.2,"text":"三到五十等或建任第六十等"},{"start":2475.2,"end":2477.2,"text":"那這部分更好跟公務員任用法"},{"start":2477.2,"end":2479.2,"text":"第六條規定是說"},{"start":2479.2,"end":2481.2,"text":"第二十一個職務可以列"},{"start":2481.2,"end":2483.2,"text":"二到三十等的規定不相符"},{"start":2483.2,"end":2484.2,"text":"而且這一次的這樣的調整"},{"start":2484.2,"end":2486.2,"text":"因為我們的那個"},{"start":2486.2,"end":2488.2,"text":"書記官調整部分"},{"start":2488.2,"end":2490.2,"text":"它從它後面它還是有一個"},{"start":2490.2,"end":2492.2,"text":"有總員額的一個限制"},{"start":2492.2,"end":2494.2,"text":"那同時我們又增設"},{"start":2494.24,"end":2495.24,"text":"那個隊長"},{"start":2495.24,"end":2497.24,"text":"那如果在這樣的調整之下"},{"start":2497.24,"end":2499.24,"text":"會讓這一次的三等書記"},{"start":2499.24,"end":2501.24,"text":"這樣的調整會比目前的"},{"start":2501.24,"end":2503.24,"text":"三等書記官的那個調整"},{"start":2503.24,"end":2505.24,"text":"更為優厚"},{"start":2505.24,"end":2506.24,"text":"因為在這種情況下"},{"start":2506.24,"end":2508.24,"text":"而且目前司法"},{"start":2508.91,"end":2510.91,"text":"的華景是司法特考的"},{"start":2510.91,"end":2512.91,"text":"四等考試及格那盡用從"},{"start":2512.91,"end":2514.91,"text":"三十等任用所以跟現行的華景"},{"start":2514.91,"end":2516.91,"text":"職務列等是相當所以重上"},{"start":2516.91,"end":2518.91,"text":"那本部的建議是"},{"start":2518.91,"end":2520.91,"text":"華景仍然建議維持現行第三到"},{"start":2520.91,"end":2522.91,"text":"第五十等那以上報告"},{"start":2522.91,"end":2524.91,"text":"進行各位參考指教謝謝"},{"start":2528.47,"end":2529.47,"text":"好謝謝懷次長"},{"start":2529.47,"end":2531.47,"text":"那接下來我們有請"},{"start":2531.47,"end":2533.47,"text":"人事行政總處的張副人事長來進行說明"},{"start":2539.62,"end":2542.66,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安"},{"start":2543.59,"end":2545.59,"text":"今天非常感謝"},{"start":2545.59,"end":2547.59,"text":"大院的司法法制委會"},{"start":2547.59,"end":2549.59,"text":"在召開審查法院"},{"start":2549.59,"end":2551.59,"text":"組織法等五項"},{"start":2551.59,"end":2552.59,"text":"法案的修正草案"},{"start":2552.59,"end":2554.59,"text":"要請本總處來列起"},{"start":2554.59,"end":2556.59,"text":"深感榮幸那底下我就"},{"start":2556.59,"end":2558.59,"text":"就"},{"start":2558.59,"end":2560.59,"text":"總處的意見做簡要的說明"},{"start":2560.59,"end":2562.59,"text":"那第一項是有關於這個"},{"start":2562.59,"end":2564.59,"text":"調高三等書記官"},{"start":2564.59,"end":2566.59,"text":"法警長跟副法警長的職務列"},{"start":2566.59,"end":2568.59,"text":"等的部分"},{"start":2568.59,"end":2570.59,"text":"這個部分是可以適度"},{"start":2570.59,"end":2572.59,"text":"反映他們的職責程度"},{"start":2572.63,"end":2574.63,"text":"這個部分我們盡表支持"},{"start":2574.63,"end":2576.63,"text":"但是職務列等的部分"},{"start":2576.63,"end":2578.63,"text":"是考試院的權責所以我們也"},{"start":2578.63,"end":2580.63,"text":"尊重全部的說明跟大院"},{"start":2580.63,"end":2581.63,"text":"審查的結果"},{"start":2582.94,"end":2584.94,"text":"那第二個部分是有關於"},{"start":2584.94,"end":2586.94,"text":"調整法院檢查機關的"},{"start":2586.94,"end":2588.94,"text":"一等書記官跟二等"},{"start":2588.94,"end":2590.94,"text":"書記官的占比這個部分"},{"start":2590.94,"end":2592.94,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":2592.94,"end":2594.94,"text":"在1111年"},{"start":2594.94,"end":2596.94,"text":"跟1114年這個考試院"},{"start":2596.94,"end":2598.94,"text":"跟刑事院有會審修正了"},{"start":2598.94,"end":2600.94,"text":"兩次的各機關"},{"start":2600.94,"end":2602.94,"text":"職稱及關等"},{"start":2602.94,"end":2604.94,"text":"職等原有配置準則"},{"start":2604.94,"end":2606.94,"text":"那這次方向都是朝"},{"start":2606.94,"end":2608.94,"text":"降低委任關等的"},{"start":2608.94,"end":2610.94,"text":"配置比例來充實機關"},{"start":2610.98,"end":2612.98,"text":"建任的核心人力的方向"},{"start":2612.98,"end":2614.98,"text":"來進行"},{"start":2614.98,"end":2616.98,"text":"那這次的這個法案是"},{"start":2616.98,"end":2618.98,"text":"跟這個政策方向"},{"start":2618.98,"end":2620.98,"text":"是相一致的"},{"start":2620.98,"end":2622.98,"text":"那這個部分我們也表示支持"},{"start":2622.98,"end":2624.98,"text":"並且尊重大院的"},{"start":2624.98,"end":2626.98,"text":"審議的結果那第三個"},{"start":2626.98,"end":2628.98,"text":"部分是有關於"},{"start":2628.98,"end":2630.98,"text":"徵訂各該組織法修正"},{"start":2630.98,"end":2632.98,"text":"前已經在職的法警長"},{"start":2632.98,"end":2634.98,"text":"可是他未具"},{"start":2634.98,"end":2636.98,"text":"原職務列等這個調整"},{"start":2636.98,"end":2638.98,"text":"後的這個職務的任用資格"},{"start":2639.02,"end":2641.02,"text":"可以留用的這個部分"},{"start":2641.02,"end":2643.02,"text":"那這個部分我們尊重"},{"start":2643.02,"end":2645.02,"text":"主管機關全區部的意見"},{"start":2645.02,"end":2647.02,"text":"跟大院審議的結果以上報告"},{"start":2648.99,"end":2650.99,"text":"好謝謝張副人事長的說明"},{"start":2650.99,"end":2652.99,"text":"那其餘提出數目報告的機關"},{"start":2652.99,"end":2654.99,"text":"還有沒有要做口頭補充的"},{"start":2657.8,"end":2659.8,"text":"沒有的話那麼我們機關代表"},{"start":2659.8,"end":2661.8,"text":"就報告完畢相關數目的內容"},{"start":2661.8,"end":2663.8,"text":"就請各位參閱並且列入"},{"start":2663.8,"end":2665.8,"text":"公報紀錄現在我們就開始"},{"start":2665.8,"end":2667.8,"text":"進行詢答"},{"start":2667.8,"end":2669.8,"text":"本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘"},{"start":2669.8,"end":2671.8,"text":"必要時得延長兩分鐘"},{"start":2671.8,"end":2673.8,"text":"非本會委員質詢的"},{"start":2673.8,"end":2675.8,"text":"詢答時間為五分鐘並不再延長"},{"start":2675.8,"end":2677.8,"text":"那麼上午十點三十分"},{"start":2677.8,"end":2679.8,"text":"我們就截止發言登記"},{"start":2679.8,"end":2681.8,"text":"現在先請登記第一位的"},{"start":2681.8,"end":2683.8,"text":"陳昭之委員進行發言"},{"start":2688.2799999999997,"end":2690.2799999999997,"text":"謝謝主席有請司法院高秘書長"},{"start":2690.2799999999997,"end":2692.2799999999997,"text":"任總的副人事長"},{"start":2692.2799999999997,"end":2694.2799999999997,"text":"全區部次長跟法務部的代表"},{"start":2694.2799999999997,"end":2696.2799999999997,"text":"好"},{"start":2696.2799999999997,"end":2698.2799999999997,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2699.47,"end":2700.5099999999998,"text":"到備詢台謝謝"},{"start":2702.95,"end":2703.99,"text":"好"},{"start":2703.9,"end":2704.9,"text":"那"},{"start":2704.9,"end":2705.9,"text":"四位首長早安"},{"start":2705.9,"end":2706.9,"text":"我麻煩你"},{"start":2706.9,"end":2708.9,"text":"就跟我一起先來看看這幾張"},{"start":2708.9,"end":2710.9,"text":"這幾年來地院的案件量"},{"start":2710.9,"end":2712.9,"text":"過去十一年"},{"start":2712.9,"end":2714.9,"text":"地方法院民事案件的部分"},{"start":2714.9,"end":2716.9,"text":"在左邊"},{"start":2716.9,"end":2718.9,"text":"新收案件暴增百分之四十六"},{"start":2718.9,"end":2720.9,"text":"未截件數暴增"},{"start":2720.9,"end":2722.9,"text":"一百五十四percent"},{"start":2722.9,"end":2724.9,"text":"那至於刑事案件"},{"start":2724.9,"end":2726.9,"text":"右邊的部分未截件的數"},{"start":2726.9,"end":2728.9,"text":"暴增一百二十二percent"},{"start":2728.9,"end":2730.9,"text":"那過去刑事案每一個案"},{"start":2730.9,"end":2732.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秘書長"},{"start":3018.62,"end":3019.62,"text":"你講的這個當然"},{"start":3019.62,"end":3021.62,"text":"表面上是合情合理"},{"start":3021.62,"end":3022.62,"text":"但是你也知道"},{"start":3022.62,"end":3023.62,"text":"書記官流失很多"},{"start":3023.66,"end":3025.66,"text":"我先稍微等一下"},{"start":3025.66,"end":3027.66,"text":"我再請問你講"},{"start":3027.66,"end":3029.66,"text":"總原額法有沒有限制你這個處理"},{"start":3029.66,"end":3031.66,"text":"總原額法本身有沒有限定"},{"start":3031.66,"end":3033.66,"text":"限制了你這個對於這個配比"},{"start":3034.94,"end":3036.94,"text":"總原額法本身"},{"start":3036.94,"end":3037.94,"text":"沒有嗎 有"},{"start":3037.94,"end":3038.94,"text":"不是"},{"start":3038.94,"end":3040.94,"text":"配比不是在總原額法限制"},{"start":3040.94,"end":3041.94,"text":"總原額法是限制了"},{"start":3041.94,"end":3043.94,"text":"我們所有的人數"},{"start":3043.94,"end":3044.94,"text":"對 但是我剛剛強調說"},{"start":3044.94,"end":3046.94,"text":"書記官就是不夠"},{"start":3046.94,"end":3047.94,"text":"對 不夠"},{"start":3047.94,"end":3049.94,"text":"很多法官還甚至在幫忙書記官"},{"start":3049.94,"end":3051.94,"text":"這樣怎麼讓法官好好做事"},{"start":3051.94,"end":3053.94,"text":"都有 他們都要互相合作"},{"start":3053.94,"end":3054.94,"text":"所以我的重點說"},{"start":3054.94,"end":3055.94,"text":"為什麼這個配比"},{"start":3055.94,"end":3056.94,"text":"你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":3056.94,"end":3057.94,"text":"能夠調高"},{"start":3057.94,"end":3058.94,"text":"我是費心的"},{"start":3058.94,"end":3059.94,"text":"總原額法你就老實說"},{"start":3059.94,"end":3061.94,"text":"我再給你支持"},{"start":3061.94,"end":3062.94,"text":"你覺得會不會有限制"},{"start":3062.94,"end":3063.94,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3063.98,"end":3065.98,"text":"總原額法是我們的魔咒"},{"start":3065.98,"end":3067.98,"text":"魔咒 謝謝你"},{"start":3067.98,"end":3068.98,"text":"來 請問任總"},{"start":3068.98,"end":3069.98,"text":"來 任總 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任總"},{"start":3090.14,"end":3092.14,"text":"你們聽到這個說法嗎"},{"start":3092.14,"end":3094.14,"text":"你聽到我談的話嗎"},{"start":3094.14,"end":3095.14,"text":"就不夠"},{"start":3095.14,"end":3097.14,"text":"你怎麼在學健保那個總額"},{"start":3097.14,"end":3098.14,"text":"那個問題出很大"},{"start":3098.14,"end":3099.14,"text":"你這裡也可以學這個總額字"},{"start":3099.14,"end":3101.14,"text":"你要看與時俱進"},{"start":3101.71,"end":3103.71,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3103.71,"end":3106.71,"text":"其實在司法的原額的這個"},{"start":3106.71,"end":3107.71,"text":"你限制總原額"},{"start":3107.71,"end":3108.71,"text":"其實就是寬度"},{"start":3108.71,"end":3109.71,"text":"這是魔咒"},{"start":3109.71,"end":3111.71,"text":"今天秘書長老實講"},{"start":3111.71,"end":3112.71,"text":"我給他做支持"},{"start":3112.71,"end":3113.71,"text":"我支持他"},{"start":3113.71,"end":3114.71,"text":"魔咒"},{"start":3114.71,"end":3116.71,"text":"現在回到你們身上"},{"start":3117.42,"end":3119.42,"text":"這個魔咒要打開啊"},{"start":3119.42,"end":3122.42,"text":"我來跟這個委員做報告"},{"start":3122.42,"end":3125.42,"text":"在我們各機關"},{"start":3125.42,"end":3128.42,"text":"在近十年其實就是"},{"start":3128.42,"end":3130.42,"text":"它的原額的增減"},{"start":3130.42,"end":3133.42,"text":"算是比較平盤的這個"},{"start":3133.42,"end":3134.42,"text":"狀態底下"},{"start":3134.42,"end":3136.42,"text":"平盤就是沒有增加"},{"start":3136.42,"end":3138.42,"text":"我們最近的十年增加"},{"start":3138.42,"end":3140.42,"text":"司法機關跟檢察機關原額"},{"start":3140.42,"end":3142.42,"text":"大概有三千個左右"},{"start":3142.42,"end":3143.42,"text":"限制總的也許是個方法"},{"start":3143.42,"end":3145.42,"text":"兩千多百七十一個人"},{"start":3145.46,"end":3148.46,"text":"司法院大概增加了一千四百七十六"},{"start":3148.46,"end":3151.46,"text":"檢察機關增加了一千四百九十五"},{"start":3151.46,"end":3154.46,"text":"剛剛提到的這個"},{"start":3155.09,"end":3157.09,"text":"目前司法機關"},{"start":3157.09,"end":3159.09,"text":"還在考試分發或領埔中"},{"start":3159.09,"end":3161.09,"text":"或者是未運用的缺額"},{"start":3161.09,"end":3163.09,"text":"還有一千一百一十九個"},{"start":3163.09,"end":3165.09,"text":"檢察機關有四百七十八個"},{"start":3165.09,"end":3167.09,"text":"我剛剛給你那麼多的數字"},{"start":3167.09,"end":3169.09,"text":"你那個總原額的先生你好好聽"},{"start":3169.09,"end":3171.09,"text":"我現在跟他們站在一起"},{"start":3171.09,"end":3174.09,"text":"這個不及司法院的"},{"start":3174.09,"end":3176.09,"text":"司法院 秘書長"},{"start":3176.09,"end":3178.09,"text":"我請你回去研議多少比例"},{"start":3178.09,"end":3180.09,"text":"以現在目前的業務量"},{"start":3180.09,"end":3182.09,"text":"你認為多少比例"},{"start":3182.09,"end":3184.09,"text":"是比較恰當的"},{"start":3184.13,"end":3185.13,"text":"我完全支持你"},{"start":3185.13,"end":3187.13,"text":"你請你給我的然後"},{"start":3187.83,"end":3188.83,"text":"我請任總"},{"start":3188.83,"end":3189.83,"text":"要來思考"},{"start":3189.83,"end":3190.83,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":3190.83,"end":3191.83,"text":"這個問題很重要"},{"start":3191.83,"end":3192.83,"text":"我現在再請教司法院"},{"start":3192.83,"end":3193.83,"text":"我們來看高等法院"},{"start":3193.83,"end":3194.83,"text":"現在不是只有這個"},{"start":3194.83,"end":3195.83,"text":"這個地院的問題"},{"start":3195.83,"end":3196.83,"text":"第一類法庭院長"},{"start":3196.83,"end":3197.83,"text":"法庭庭長將法官"},{"start":3197.83,"end":3198.83,"text":"本來最高四百八十人"},{"start":3198.83,"end":3200.83,"text":"書記官四百八十八人"},{"start":3200.83,"end":3202.83,"text":"修正查案變成了法官"},{"start":3202.83,"end":3203.83,"text":"三百六十人"},{"start":3203.83,"end":3204.83,"text":"書記官三百六十八人"},{"start":3204.83,"end":3206.83,"text":"為什麼原額變少了"},{"start":3206.83,"end":3207.83,"text":"請你告訴我"},{"start":3207.83,"end":3209.83,"text":"為什麼原額變少了呢"},{"start":3211.21,"end":3212.21,"text":"來 我聽我命"},{"start":3212.21,"end":3214.21,"text":"又是總原額法嗎"},{"start":3214.21,"end":3215.21,"text":"你挪來挪去嗎"},{"start":3217.46,"end":3218.46,"text":"工作量減少嗎"},{"start":3218.46,"end":3219.46,"text":"為什麼我剛剛已經"},{"start":3219.46,"end":3220.46,"text":"秀資料了"},{"start":3220.46,"end":3222.46,"text":"為什麼這裡是原額變少呢"},{"start":3222.46,"end":3223.46,"text":"給我一個清楚的理由"},{"start":3223.46,"end":3224.46,"text":"好嗎 很簡單的"},{"start":3224.46,"end":3225.46,"text":"清楚理由"},{"start":3225.46,"end":3227.46,"text":"其實很簡單"},{"start":3227.46,"end":3229.46,"text":"為什麼變少"},{"start":3229.46,"end":3230.46,"text":"第一個"},{"start":3231.45,"end":3232.45,"text":"地院的案件是"},{"start":3232.45,"end":3234.45,"text":"增加的非常快"},{"start":3234.45,"end":3236.45,"text":"那高院的案件"},{"start":3236.45,"end":3237.45,"text":"稍微慢一點"},{"start":3237.45,"end":3238.45,"text":"相對也會增加"},{"start":3238.45,"end":3239.45,"text":"對 相對會增加"},{"start":3239.45,"end":3240.45,"text":"因為它慢"},{"start":3240.45,"end":3241.45,"text":"所以我們就保守一點"},{"start":3241.45,"end":3242.45,"text":"當然最重要"},{"start":3242.45,"end":3243.45,"text":"還是總原額法"},{"start":3243.45,"end":3244.45,"text":"好 就暫停"},{"start":3244.45,"end":3245.45,"text":"就是這句"},{"start":3245.45,"end":3246.45,"text":"暫停"},{"start":3246.45,"end":3247.45,"text":"好 任總"},{"start":3247.45,"end":3249.45,"text":"麻煩你 副人事長"},{"start":3249.45,"end":3250.45,"text":"高院也是要接受"},{"start":3250.45,"end":3251.45,"text":"全國上訴的案件"},{"start":3251.45,"end":3253.45,"text":"你看看右邊這個地方"},{"start":3253.45,"end":3254.45,"text":"今年一月到六月"},{"start":3254.45,"end":3256.45,"text":"民事上訴就六千六百七十二件"},{"start":3256.45,"end":3257.45,"text":"刑事上訴"},{"start":3257.45,"end":3260.45,"text":"一萬四千八百三十九件"},{"start":3260.49,"end":3261.49,"text":"老實說"},{"start":3261.49,"end":3262.49,"text":"大家都過勞了"},{"start":3262.49,"end":3265.49,"text":"我們今天才談到修法"},{"start":3265.49,"end":3268.49,"text":"結果非但不提高整體的原額"},{"start":3268.49,"end":3270.49,"text":"還把原額挪來挪去"},{"start":3271.18,"end":3272.22,"text":"像話嗎"},{"start":3272.67,"end":3274.67,"text":"你要這樣卡 卡到什麼時候呢"},{"start":3274.67,"end":3275.67,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3275.67,"end":3276.67,"text":"其實剛好已經"},{"start":3276.67,"end":3277.67,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3277.67,"end":3279.67,"text":"在各機關的這個"},{"start":3279.67,"end":3281.67,"text":"總數沒有變動之下"},{"start":3281.67,"end":3282.67,"text":"其實司法跟檢察機關"},{"start":3282.67,"end":3284.67,"text":"我們近十年已經補了三千個"},{"start":3284.67,"end":3285.67,"text":"沒有 你上一次"},{"start":3285.67,"end":3287.67,"text":"你上一次挪到是108年"},{"start":3287.67,"end":3289.67,"text":"現在其實司法體系"},{"start":3289.67,"end":3290.67,"text":"這個業務量大的問題"},{"start":3290.67,"end":3291.67,"text":"其實大家都看到"},{"start":3291.67,"end":3294.67,"text":"然後大家也一起在解決這個問題"},{"start":3294.67,"end":3297.67,"text":"從補充人力 提高待遇"},{"start":3297.67,"end":3298.67,"text":"其實剛剛也有委員"},{"start":3298.67,"end":3299.67,"text":"兩個都有嘛"},{"start":3299.67,"end":3300.67,"text":"這個互不一致 缺乏業務"},{"start":3300.67,"end":3301.67,"text":"另外 現在今天要處理"},{"start":3301.71,"end":3303.71,"text":"其實是待遇科學研究"},{"start":3303.71,"end":3304.71,"text":"提高列等"},{"start":3304.71,"end":3305.71,"text":"然後另外一個"},{"start":3305.71,"end":3307.71,"text":"其實我們在五六月的時候"},{"start":3307.71,"end":3309.71,"text":"有到司法院跟檢察機關"},{"start":3309.71,"end":3311.71,"text":"你就告訴我原額"},{"start":3311.71,"end":3313.71,"text":"原額法你要不要好好檢討一下"},{"start":3313.71,"end":3314.71,"text":"總要法其實"},{"start":3314.71,"end":3315.71,"text":"其實總要法"},{"start":3315.71,"end":3317.71,"text":"它有它的機制可以處理"},{"start":3317.71,"end":3320.71,"text":"好 我現在請教法務部代表"},{"start":3320.71,"end":3321.71,"text":"我們來看看地檢署"},{"start":3321.71,"end":3323.71,"text":"以現在詐騙案量這麼多"},{"start":3323.71,"end":3325.71,"text":"有這麼多申請定執行型的"},{"start":3325.71,"end":3326.71,"text":"這個業務量"},{"start":3326.71,"end":3328.71,"text":"這次的檢察官 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我沒有問個案"},{"start":3891.09,"end":3892.09,"text":"好啦 市長"},{"start":3892.09,"end":3893.09,"text":"因為這是個案"},{"start":3893.09,"end":3894.09,"text":"市長我大概了解"},{"start":3894.09,"end":3895.09,"text":"可能你也不方便"},{"start":3895.09,"end":3896.09,"text":"回答這個問題"},{"start":3896.09,"end":3897.09,"text":"但我必須講一個"},{"start":3897.09,"end":3898.09,"text":"我六 我今天是"},{"start":3898.13,"end":3901.13,"text":"一個警察在沒有檢察官指揮"},{"start":3901.13,"end":3902.13,"text":"沒有搜索票"},{"start":3902.13,"end":3903.13,"text":"沒有拘票"},{"start":3903.13,"end":3904.13,"text":"沒有任何通知書的情況下"},{"start":3904.13,"end":3906.13,"text":"就跑到人家家去做這些事情"},{"start":3906.13,"end":3908.13,"text":"基本上我想全國的自打官"},{"start":3908.13,"end":3910.13,"text":"沒有人會接受這樣的作法"},{"start":3910.13,"end":3911.13,"text":"因為這樣就回到"},{"start":3911.13,"end":3913.13,"text":"回到那種集權國家啦"},{"start":3913.13,"end":3914.13,"text":"警察愛到你家"},{"start":3914.13,"end":3915.13,"text":"幹嘛就幹嘛"},{"start":3915.13,"end":3916.13,"text":"反正我就是一個"},{"start":3917.84,"end":3920.84,"text":"比你高一等的權限嘛"},{"start":3920.84,"end":3921.84,"text":"我到你家幹什麼"},{"start":3921.84,"end":3922.84,"text":"那你就等著害怕而已"},{"start":3922.84,"end":3925.84,"text":"我想這個不是我們願意看到"},{"start":3925.84,"end":3926.84,"text":"而且你看"},{"start":3926.84,"end":3928.84,"text":"刑事訴訟法175條第四項"},{"start":3928.84,"end":3929.84,"text":"傳喚一般證人"},{"start":3929.84,"end":3930.84,"text":"都還要求傳票"},{"start":3930.84,"end":3933.84,"text":"至少要在到場旗日前"},{"start":3933.84,"end":3934.84,"text":"24小時就要送達"},{"start":3934.84,"end":3935.84,"text":"連刑事訴訟法"},{"start":3935.84,"end":3937.84,"text":"對於證人都有這樣的保護"},{"start":3937.84,"end":3938.84,"text":"更何況今天"},{"start":3940.07,"end":3941.11,"text":"也沒有人告他啊"},{"start":3941.87,"end":3943.87,"text":"也沒有任何犯罪事實出來啊"},{"start":3943.87,"end":3945.87,"text":"那他到底在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":3945.87,"end":3946.87,"text":"他的規類是什麼"},{"start":3946.87,"end":3947.87,"text":"我想他應該不是被告"},{"start":3947.87,"end":3949.87,"text":"那你竟然可以去做這個事情"},{"start":3949.87,"end":3951.87,"text":"我個人不認同啦"},{"start":3951.87,"end":3953.87,"text":"否則刑事175條第四項"},{"start":3953.87,"end":3955.87,"text":"對於證人的這個規定"},{"start":3955.87,"end":3956.87,"text":"也等於是虛設嘛"},{"start":3956.87,"end":3957.87,"text":"我愛怎麼樣"},{"start":3957.87,"end":3958.87,"text":"我當警察愛怎麼樣"},{"start":3958.87,"end":3960.87,"text":"因為我一直在保護警"},{"start":3960.87,"end":3961.87,"text":"保障警察的權益"},{"start":3961.87,"end":3963.87,"text":"但為同樣的不能接受警察"},{"start":3963.87,"end":3965.87,"text":"濫權做這個事情"},{"start":3965.87,"end":3966.87,"text":"因為我認為這個對於"},{"start":3966.87,"end":3968.87,"text":"刑事訴訟法的程序正當性的"},{"start":3970.18,"end":3972.18,"text":"保障其實是超過的啦"},{"start":3972.18,"end":3974.18,"text":"更何況說吼"},{"start":3974.18,"end":3975.18,"text":"當時就有一個老人家在家"},{"start":3975.18,"end":3977.18,"text":"那甚至他問警察"},{"start":3977.18,"end":3978.18,"text":"問他說"},{"start":3978.86,"end":3979.86,"text":"是誰要我下架"},{"start":3979.86,"end":3980.86,"text":"有人提告嗎"},{"start":3980.86,"end":3982.86,"text":"警察其實是答不出來"},{"start":3982.86,"end":3983.86,"text":"當場他連"},{"start":3983.86,"end":3985.86,"text":"自由犯罪"},{"start":3985.86,"end":3987.86,"text":"案遊也講不出來"},{"start":3987.86,"end":3989.86,"text":"他是後來才擠了五個法條出來"},{"start":3989.86,"end":3991.86,"text":"所以這個東西我覺得"},{"start":3991.86,"end":3992.86,"text":"都不妥"},{"start":3992.86,"end":3993.86,"text":"你今天到人家家去執行公務"},{"start":3993.86,"end":3994.86,"text":"就你連他犯了什麼"},{"start":3994.86,"end":3995.86,"text":"你都講不出來"},{"start":3995.86,"end":3997.86,"text":"其實這個是很離譜啦"},{"start":3997.86,"end":3998.86,"text":"所以"},{"start":3998.86,"end":3999.86,"text":"簡單的講這個案子"},{"start":3999.86,"end":4001.86,"text":"當初根本沒有理由"},{"start":4001.86,"end":4003.86,"text":"你就直接去查水表"},{"start":4003.86,"end":4004.86,"text":"我想很悲哀的事情"},{"start":4004.86,"end":4005.86,"text":"我學生時候"},{"start":4005.86,"end":4007.86,"text":"我跟著林三田教授去"},{"start":4007.9,"end":4008.9,"text":"為了刑法100條上街頭"},{"start":4008.9,"end":4010.9,"text":"為了台灣人民的言論自由"},{"start":4010.9,"end":4013.9,"text":"為了讓那些思想犯能夠回到台灣"},{"start":4013.9,"end":4015.9,"text":"陪著林三田教授上街頭去抗爭"},{"start":4015.9,"end":4016.9,"text":"結果"},{"start":4016.9,"end":4017.9,"text":"幾十年過去了"},{"start":4017.9,"end":4019.9,"text":"我們台灣越活越回去"},{"start":4020.73,"end":4021.73,"text":"所以這個事情我是覺得"},{"start":4021.73,"end":4023.73,"text":"不能讓人忍受"},{"start":4023.73,"end":4025.73,"text":"自稱保障言論自由"},{"start":4025.73,"end":4027.73,"text":"自稱動不動都拿鄭南榮出來"},{"start":4027.73,"end":4028.73,"text":"說嘴的人"},{"start":4028.73,"end":4030.73,"text":"但是連最基本的言論自由"},{"start":4032.0099999999998,"end":4033.0099999999998,"text":"都保障不了"},{"start":4033.0099999999998,"end":4034.0099999999998,"text":"還可以拿出來這樣子講"},{"start":4034.0099999999998,"end":4036.0099999999998,"text":"我是不太能接受這樣"},{"start":4036.0099999999998,"end":4038.0099999999998,"text":"那跟我們當初學生的時候理想也差"},{"start":4039.07,"end":4040.07,"text":"也差太遠了"},{"start":4040.07,"end":4041.07,"text":"所以"},{"start":4041.95,"end":4044.95,"text":"當把恐懼送到無辜人家的客廳"},{"start":4044.95,"end":4046.95,"text":"然後網友按一個發送鍵之前"},{"start":4046.95,"end":4048.95,"text":"都要感到害怕"},{"start":4048.95,"end":4049.95,"text":"這個不對"},{"start":4049.95,"end":4050.95,"text":"這不叫做民主國家"},{"start":4050.95,"end":4052.95,"text":"已經走向集權國家了"},{"start":4052.95,"end":4054.95,"text":"而這個也沒有依法辦"},{"start":4054.95,"end":4055.95,"text":"警察到現在"},{"start":4055.95,"end":4056.95,"text":"他所作所為都是"},{"start":4056.95,"end":4057.95,"text":"都有問題"},{"start":4057.95,"end":4058.95,"text":"沒有任何依據"},{"start":4058.95,"end":4060.95,"text":"那這個是國家的恐嚇"},{"start":4060.95,"end":4063.95,"text":"那有時候我就看到這個狀況"},{"start":4063.95,"end":4064.95,"text":"我就覺得"},{"start":4064.95,"end":4066.95,"text":"最近包括上次什麼陳菊"},{"start":4066.95,"end":4067.95,"text":"走了嗎那句話"},{"start":4067.95,"end":4068.95,"text":"警察立刻火速上門"},{"start":4068.95,"end":4070.95,"text":"包括這一次的事情"},{"start":4070.99,"end":4071.99,"text":"對人民創作的影片"},{"start":4071.99,"end":4073.99,"text":"警察火速敲門"},{"start":4074.84,"end":4076.84,"text":"但是人民真正害怕跟我"},{"start":4076.84,"end":4077.84,"text":"我痛恨的半死"},{"start":4078.91,"end":4081.91,"text":"讓我的爸老爸老媽"},{"start":4081.91,"end":4083.91,"text":"讓我的小孩知道這種自來遊的"},{"start":4083.91,"end":4084.91,"text":"這個事情"},{"start":4084.91,"end":4085.91,"text":"政府拖了一根月"},{"start":4085.91,"end":4086.91,"text":"卻給不出答案"},{"start":4086.91,"end":4087.91,"text":"但另外呢"},{"start":4087.91,"end":4088.91,"text":"弄了一個Cruzle的影片"},{"start":4088.91,"end":4090.91,"text":"我馬上到你家登門去查"},{"start":4090.91,"end":4092.91,"text":"這是很好笑"},{"start":4092.91,"end":4094.91,"text":"而且是很諷刺的一件事情"},{"start":4096.04,"end":4098.04,"text":"我們都吃很多自來遊"},{"start":4098.04,"end":4100.04,"text":"因為我們根本無從選擇"},{"start":4100.92,"end":4101.92,"text":"這麼多流到市面上"},{"start":4101.92,"end":4103.92,"text":"這才是讓我們氣憤的事情"},{"start":4103.92,"end":4104.92,"text":"好"},{"start":4104.92,"end":4105.92,"text":"那北檢這次分案"},{"start":4105.92,"end":4106.92,"text":"或是用"},{"start":4107.61,"end":4108.65,"text":"新法的準師文書"},{"start":4110.33,"end":4111.33,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":4111.33,"end":4112.33,"text":"我看"},{"start":4112.33,"end":4113.33,"text":"但是最高法院"},{"start":4113.33,"end":4114.33,"text":"一路以來的見解"},{"start":4114.33,"end":4115.33,"text":"準師文書"},{"start":4115.33,"end":4116.33,"text":"它必須要"},{"start":4116.33,"end":4117.33,"text":"第一個"},{"start":4117.33,"end":4118.33,"text":"證明法律關係"},{"start":4118.33,"end":4119.33,"text":"或社會活動事實"},{"start":4119.33,"end":4120.33,"text":"第二個"},{"start":4120.33,"end":4121.33,"text":"要有明確的名義"},{"start":4120.73,"end":4122.73,"text":"我就說我不想去討論個案"},{"start":4122.73,"end":4123.73,"text":"但是至少在這個個案"},{"start":4123.73,"end":4125.73,"text":"並沒有講是誰"},{"start":4125.73,"end":4128.73,"text":"所以欠缺最高法院的名義人的概念"},{"start":4128.73,"end":4129.73,"text":"第二個"},{"start":4129.73,"end":4130.73,"text":"它陳述的是一個"},{"start":4130.73,"end":4132.73,"text":"事實與科學上面的依據"},{"start":4132.73,"end":4133.73,"text":"這跟法律關係"},{"start":4133.73,"end":4135.73,"text":"或社會的犯罪活動事實"},{"start":4135.73,"end":4136.73,"text":"也沒有關聯性"},{"start":4136.73,"end":4138.73,"text":"所以這是讓我很難過的說"},{"start":4138.73,"end":4139.73,"text":"為什麼今天"},{"start":4139.73,"end":4143.73,"text":"國家公器會用到今天這個樣子"},{"start":4145.68,"end":4146.68,"text":"所以"},{"start":4146.68,"end":4147.68,"text":"我想"},{"start":4147.68,"end":4148.68,"text":"如果今天開場"},{"start":4148.68,"end":4151.68,"text":"這個自稱虛構的"},{"start":4151.68,"end":4153.68,"text":"一個政治諷刺的這個"},{"start":4153.68,"end":4155.68,"text":"這個東西都可以扣上為照文書"},{"start":4155.68,"end":4157.68,"text":"那我們國內非常多"},{"start":4157.68,"end":4158.68,"text":"第二次創作"},{"start":4158.68,"end":4160.68,"text":"COOSOR的這些年輕人"},{"start":4160.68,"end":4161.68,"text":"都完蛋了"},{"start":4161.68,"end":4162.68,"text":"都可能要被抓去關"},{"start":4164.26,"end":4166.26,"text":"然後那個警政組上次報告"},{"start":4166.26,"end":4167.26,"text":"還提到說誹謗罪"},{"start":4167.26,"end":4169.26,"text":"這是告訴哪一論之罪"},{"start":4169.7699999999995,"end":4170.7699999999995,"text":"告訴哪一論之罪"},{"start":4170.7699999999995,"end":4171.7699999999995,"text":"沒有人告"},{"start":4171.7699999999995,"end":4172.7699999999995,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":4172.7699999999995,"end":4174.7699999999995,"text":"市長 北檢會不會傳喚賴總統"},{"start":4174.7699999999995,"end":4175.7699999999995,"text":"來問他要不要提告"},{"start":4177.06,"end":4178.06,"text":"這個是北檢"},{"start":4178.06,"end":4181.06,"text":"他依法偵查個案的一個職權行使"},{"start":4181.06,"end":4182.06,"text":"我們都予以充受"},{"start":4182.06,"end":4183.06,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4183.06,"end":4184.06,"text":"那市長我想"},{"start":4184.06,"end":4185.06,"text":"我大概也猜到市長會這麼說"},{"start":4185.06,"end":4186.06,"text":"所以今天我要講的"},{"start":4186.06,"end":4188.06,"text":"重點就在這個地方"},{"start":4188.06,"end":4189.06,"text":"北檢會不會傳總統"},{"start":4189.06,"end":4190.06,"text":"我們不知道"},{"start":4190.06,"end":4191.06,"text":"但是告訴全能就是總統"},{"start":4191.06,"end":4193.06,"text":"我也不知道他要不要提告"},{"start":4193.06,"end":4194.06,"text":"那一個沒有人提告"},{"start":4194.06,"end":4195.06,"text":"一個找不到犯罪事實的東西"},{"start":4195.06,"end":4198.06,"text":"就警察卻上門去做這個事情"},{"start":4198.06,"end":4200.06,"text":"最近有很多那個自稱是法律人"},{"start":4200.06,"end":4201.06,"text":"法律專家"},{"start":4201.06,"end":4203.06,"text":"或是有律師資格"},{"start":4203.06,"end":4205.06,"text":"但是說的一堆唯心之論嘛"},{"start":4206.62,"end":4207.62,"text":"如果說"},{"start":4207.62,"end":4208.62,"text":"譬如說有人就"},{"start":4208.62,"end":4210.62,"text":"自稱是律師在網路上面"},{"start":4210.62,"end":4211.62,"text":"今天用總統的聲音"},{"start":4211.62,"end":4212.62,"text":"這樣可以嗎"},{"start":4212.62,"end":4213.62,"text":"這個為什麼沒有構成犯罪"},{"start":4213.62,"end":4216.62,"text":"事實上在我國就沒有構成犯罪啊"},{"start":4216.62,"end":4217.62,"text":"今天必須要是"},{"start":4217.62,"end":4219.62,"text":"你用誰的聲音"},{"start":4219.62,"end":4220.62,"text":"告訴大家"},{"start":4220.62,"end":4221.62,"text":"我是這個人"},{"start":4221.62,"end":4223.62,"text":"而且從事社會的犯罪活動"},{"start":4223.62,"end":4225.62,"text":"這兩個要件加起來"},{"start":4225.62,"end":4226.62,"text":"才會構成犯罪"},{"start":4226.62,"end":4228.62,"text":"並不是說我今天"},{"start":4228.62,"end":4230.62,"text":"用AI去生成了某一個聲音"},{"start":4230.62,"end":4232.62,"text":"去講一個社會事實"},{"start":4232.62,"end":4233.62,"text":"或者是一個"},{"start":4234.6,"end":4235.6,"text":"那個科學上的依據"},{"start":4235.6,"end":4236.6,"text":"那就構成犯罪"},{"start":4236.6,"end":4237.6,"text":"兩個東西完全不一樣"},{"start":4237.6,"end":4239.6,"text":"但是有非常多自稱法律人"},{"start":4239.6,"end":4241.6,"text":"完全跳脫這個法律規定"},{"start":4241.6,"end":4242.6,"text":"就在位"},{"start":4242.6,"end":4244.6,"text":"以P著法律專業人的"},{"start":4244.6,"end":4246.6,"text":"這個東西來亂帶風向"},{"start":4246.6,"end":4247.6,"text":"這我不太能接受"},{"start":4247.6,"end":4248.6,"text":"如果今天"},{"start":4248.6,"end":4250.6,"text":"這個聲音跟某一個人相像"},{"start":4250.6,"end":4251.6,"text":"就會構成犯罪"},{"start":4251.6,"end":4253.6,"text":"那我每一個AI生成的聲音"},{"start":4253.6,"end":4254.6,"text":"我必須去查"},{"start":4254.6,"end":4255.6,"text":"跟這個地球上"},{"start":4255.6,"end":4257.6,"text":"83億人口有沒有跟誰像"},{"start":4257.6,"end":4259.6,"text":"如果跟誰像就會構成犯罪"},{"start":4259.6,"end":4260.6,"text":"那我必須查"},{"start":4260.6,"end":4261.6,"text":"跟這83億人口"},{"start":4261.6,"end":4262.6,"text":"有沒有跟任何一個人像"},{"start":4262.6,"end":4263.6,"text":"萬一跟誰像"},{"start":4263.64,"end":4264.64,"text":"那完蛋"},{"start":4264.64,"end":4265.64,"text":"我就構成犯罪"},{"start":4265.64,"end":4267.64,"text":"所以這個是很瘋狂的事"},{"start":4267.64,"end":4269.64,"text":"所以我國的法律規定很清楚"},{"start":4269.64,"end":4270.64,"text":"民意人"},{"start":4270.64,"end":4271.64,"text":"社會的犯罪活動"},{"start":4271.64,"end":4272.64,"text":"兩個加起來"},{"start":4272.64,"end":4274.64,"text":"才會構成一個犯罪事實"},{"start":4274.64,"end":4275.64,"text":"所以過往有人用那個"},{"start":4275.64,"end":4276.64,"text":"我覺得那個什麼"},{"start":4277.75,"end":4278.75,"text":"那個譬如說"},{"start":4278.75,"end":4280.75,"text":"那個股市操盤的名師"},{"start":4280.75,"end":4281.75,"text":"謝金河等等的"},{"start":4281.75,"end":4282.75,"text":"用他們的名義"},{"start":4282.75,"end":4283.75,"text":"用他們的聲音"},{"start":4283.75,"end":4285.75,"text":"來叫大家去投資"},{"start":4285.75,"end":4287.75,"text":"那這個就會構成犯罪"},{"start":4287.75,"end":4288.75,"text":"這個絕對沒問題"},{"start":4288.75,"end":4289.75,"text":"我也支持"},{"start":4289.75,"end":4290.75,"text":"但是今天在本案"},{"start":4290.75,"end":4291.75,"text":"我真的是看不到"},{"start":4291.75,"end":4294.75,"text":"所以我必須要跟大家報告"},{"start":4294.75,"end":4295.75,"text":"我覺得這實際上充斥很多"},{"start":4295.75,"end":4297.75,"text":"自稱的法律人"},{"start":4297.75,"end":4299.75,"text":"在那邊帶假的法律見解"},{"start":4299.75,"end":4300.75,"text":"在亂帶風向"},{"start":4300.75,"end":4302.75,"text":"這其實很"},{"start":4303.4,"end":4304.4,"text":"我是真的"},{"start":4304.4,"end":4306.4,"text":"我是不太能接受"},{"start":4306.4,"end":4308.4,"text":"那更何況"},{"start":4308.4,"end":4309.4,"text":"你看過去"},{"start":4309.4,"end":4310.4,"text":"其實12年前"},{"start":4310.4,"end":4312.4,"text":"那個蔡英文跟賴清德"},{"start":4312.4,"end":4313.4,"text":"他有一個假的影片"},{"start":4313.4,"end":4315.4,"text":"對談要大家投資加密貨幣"},{"start":4315.4,"end":4316.4,"text":"那個東西我覺得"},{"start":4317.64,"end":4319.64,"text":"這個才是造成民眾"},{"start":4319.64,"end":4321.64,"text":"財產損害的這個聲威案件"},{"start":4321.64,"end":4322.64,"text":"這個才是"},{"start":4322.64,"end":4324.64,"text":"現在這一次的這個"},{"start":4324.64,"end":4325.64,"text":"有這我真的看不出來"},{"start":4325.64,"end":4326.64,"text":"第二個就是"},{"start":4327.93,"end":4330.93,"text":"高官假學歷偽造文書的告發"},{"start":4330.93,"end":4332.93,"text":"之前114年6月"},{"start":4332.93,"end":4333.93,"text":"有律師告發"},{"start":4333.93,"end":4334.93,"text":"駐英國公使"},{"start":4334.93,"end":4336.93,"text":"那個江亞奇的這個案子"},{"start":4336.93,"end":4338.93,"text":"其實到現在查了一年多"},{"start":4338.93,"end":4339.93,"text":"也都沒有進度"},{"start":4339.93,"end":4342.93,"text":"像那個東西才是真正構成犯罪"},{"start":4342.93,"end":4343.93,"text":"但我看到的"},{"start":4343.93,"end":4345.93,"text":"國家機器都沒有真正再查"},{"start":4345.93,"end":4347.93,"text":"反而是這一次的這個影片"},{"start":4347.93,"end":4348.93,"text":"我看到的是"},{"start":4348.93,"end":4351.93,"text":"動員了刑事局的鑑識工具"},{"start":4351.93,"end":4352.93,"text":"內政部的專案報告"},{"start":4352.93,"end":4353.93,"text":"北檢的他之案"},{"start":4353.93,"end":4355.93,"text":"一整週的政治攻防"},{"start":4355.93,"end":4356.93,"text":"這次卻這麼積極"},{"start":4356.97,"end":4357.97,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":4357.97,"end":4358.97,"text":"我們面對自來有的問題"},{"start":4358.97,"end":4359.97,"text":"到現在一個多月了"},{"start":4359.97,"end":4360.97,"text":"還沒有人告訴我"},{"start":4360.97,"end":4362.97,"text":"鑑定的期程在哪裡"},{"start":4362.97,"end":4364.97,"text":"所以這是我還是沒有辦法"},{"start":4364.97,"end":4366.97,"text":"接受的一個事情"},{"start":4366.97,"end":4367.97,"text":"跟委員報相關的案件"},{"start":4367.97,"end":4369.97,"text":"其實檢察官都有在偵犯"},{"start":4369.97,"end":4370.97,"text":"不管是毒油案件"},{"start":4370.97,"end":4372.97,"text":"或者是剛您提到的這個個案"},{"start":4372.97,"end":4374.97,"text":"其實檢察官都有在做偵犯"},{"start":4374.97,"end":4375.97,"text":"那告訴哪一論罪"},{"start":4375.97,"end":4377.97,"text":"他的告訴只是一個程序的發動權"},{"start":4377.97,"end":4379.97,"text":"但是如果有犯罪嫌疑的話"},{"start":4379.97,"end":4381.97,"text":"檢察官也是要來處理的"},{"start":4381.97,"end":4382.97,"text":"就像偷拍案件的話"},{"start":4382.97,"end":4383.97,"text":"即使還沒有找到"},{"start":4383.97,"end":4385.97,"text":"被害人提出告訴之前"},{"start":4386.01,"end":4388.01,"text":"檢察官也必須要先去偵犯"},{"start":4388.01,"end":4389.01,"text":"這個沒有問題"},{"start":4389.01,"end":4390.01,"text":"它就訴說一條件的一種"},{"start":4390.01,"end":4391.01,"text":"能不能起訴"},{"start":4391.01,"end":4393.01,"text":"但是我剛剛從頭到尾的論述是"},{"start":4393.01,"end":4396.01,"text":"警察的發動完全"},{"start":4396.9,"end":4397.9,"text":"不對"},{"start":4397.9,"end":4399.9,"text":"警察沒有拘票"},{"start":4399.9,"end":4400.9,"text":"搜索票"},{"start":4400.9,"end":4401.9,"text":"沒有檢察官的指揮"},{"start":4401.9,"end":4402.9,"text":"沒有通知書"},{"start":4402.9,"end":4403.9,"text":"跑到你家去"},{"start":4403.9,"end":4404.9,"text":"叫你做這些事情"},{"start":4404.9,"end":4406.9,"text":"我想正節點在這裡"},{"start":4406.9,"end":4407.9,"text":"而不是後面"},{"start":4407.9,"end":4408.9,"text":"訴罪條件有沒有完備"},{"start":4408.9,"end":4410.9,"text":"我想這邊跟你說明一下"},{"start":4412.55,"end":4414.55,"text":"後面我會給"},{"start":4414.55,"end":4415.55,"text":"一時間到了"},{"start":4415.55,"end":4417.55,"text":"我想我還是跟你講一個"},{"start":4418.54,"end":4419.54,"text":"台唐的部分"},{"start":4419.54,"end":4421.54,"text":"因為您是法律事務司"},{"start":4421.54,"end":4423.54,"text":"也是行政院裡面的法律顧問"},{"start":4423.54,"end":4424.54,"text":"不是法律事務司"},{"start":4424.54,"end":4425.54,"text":"是法律事務司不好意思"},{"start":4425.54,"end":4426.54,"text":"請老師"},{"start":4426.54,"end":4429.54,"text":"那個法律的顧問"},{"start":4429.54,"end":4430.54,"text":"也是"},{"start":4431.28,"end":4432.28,"text":"行政院有什麼問題"},{"start":4432.28,"end":4433.28,"text":"一定也是請教你們"},{"start":4433.28,"end":4435.28,"text":"但是我要講的就是說"},{"start":4435.28,"end":4436.28,"text":"因為我們目前"},{"start":4436.28,"end":4438.28,"text":"我們的部長一直出來說"},{"start":4438.28,"end":4441.28,"text":"這個原料不是食品"},{"start":4442.26,"end":4443.26,"text":"所以他沒有通報的義務"},{"start":4443.26,"end":4445.26,"text":"就是講到那個"},{"start":4445.26,"end":4446.26,"text":"台唐的部分"},{"start":4446.26,"end":4447.26,"text":"但是我一直覺得很奇怪"},{"start":4447.26,"end":4448.26,"text":"我們食品安全衛生法"},{"start":4448.26,"end":4449.26,"text":"第三條第一款"},{"start":4449.26,"end":4451.26,"text":"它的食品的定義就是包括"},{"start":4451.26,"end":4453.26,"text":"提供人飲食"},{"start":4453.82,"end":4454.82,"text":"用作加工"},{"start":4454.82,"end":4455.82,"text":"調理食品"},{"start":4455.82,"end":4456.82,"text":"之物品"},{"start":4456.82,"end":4458.82,"text":"或其原料"},{"start":4458.82,"end":4459.82,"text":"我不懂"},{"start":4460.0199999999995,"end":4461.0199999999995,"text":"部長難道沒有看到"},{"start":4461.0199999999995,"end":4462.0199999999995,"text":"食品安全衛生法"},{"start":4462.0199999999995,"end":4464.0199999999995,"text":"第三條第一款的規定嗎"},{"start":4464.0199999999995,"end":4465.0199999999995,"text":"我搞不懂"},{"start":4465.0199999999995,"end":4466.0199999999995,"text":"所以這部分可能要麻煩"},{"start":4466.0199999999995,"end":4468.0199999999995,"text":"因為您是法律專家"},{"start":4468.0199999999995,"end":4469.0199999999995,"text":"可不可以翻一下法條"},{"start":4469.0199999999995,"end":4471.0199999999995,"text":"給行政院的長官看一下"},{"start":4471.0199999999995,"end":4472.0199999999995,"text":"那那個"},{"start":4472.0199999999995,"end":4475.0199999999995,"text":"所以原料它本身就實行"},{"start":4475.0199999999995,"end":4477.0199999999995,"text":"食管法的定義的食品的內容"},{"start":4477.0199999999995,"end":4479.0199999999995,"text":"我不知道為什麼可以把"},{"start":4479.0199999999995,"end":4481.0199999999995,"text":"食品跟原料做這樣子的區分"},{"start":4481.0199999999995,"end":4482.0199999999995,"text":"是不是只是為了"},{"start":4482.0199999999995,"end":4484.0199999999995,"text":"幫特定人講講話嗎"},{"start":4484.0199999999995,"end":4487.0199999999995,"text":"那食安是全民的問題"},{"start":4487.0199999999995,"end"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是"},{"start":5355.02,"end":5356.02,"text":"這次的修法的問題"},{"start":5356.02,"end":5357.02,"text":"就是說"},{"start":5357.02,"end":5358.02,"text":"我們現在這次的修法"},{"start":5358.02,"end":5360.02,"text":"提高的是法警長"},{"start":5360.02,"end":5362.02,"text":"跟副法警長"},{"start":5362.02,"end":5364.02,"text":"可是我們一般法警的職等"},{"start":5364.02,"end":5366.02,"text":"還是維持在委任的"},{"start":5366.02,"end":5368.02,"text":"第三職等跟到第五職等"},{"start":5368.02,"end":5371.02,"text":"所以基層法警的職涯天花板"},{"start":5371.02,"end":5372.02,"text":"是沒有改變的"},{"start":5372.02,"end":5374.02,"text":"可是其實法警是透過"},{"start":5374.02,"end":5376.02,"text":"司法特稿四等禁用的"},{"start":5376.02,"end":5378.02,"text":"那這個四等考試"},{"start":5378.02,"end":5379.02,"text":"決定的應該只是"},{"start":5379.02,"end":5380.02,"text":"出任資格"},{"start":5380.02,"end":5381.02,"text":"而不是直接變成"},{"start":5381.02,"end":5382.02,"text":"職涯的天花板"},{"start":5382.02,"end":5384.02,"text":"再加上過去的質詢嘛"},{"start":5384.02,"end":5385.02,"text":"我們在講法院的安全"},{"start":5385.02,"end":5387.02,"text":"之前的一些法院的"},{"start":5387.02,"end":5388.02,"text":"打人 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剛我已經跟陳委員報告過"},{"start":5418.02,"end":5420.02,"text":"我們當初在跟全序部協商的時候"},{"start":5420.02,"end":5422.02,"text":"因為牽涉到考試之內"},{"start":5422.02,"end":5424.02,"text":"老實說我們是尊重全序部"},{"start":5424.02,"end":5426.02,"text":"所以我們暫時是想說"},{"start":5426.02,"end":5428.02,"text":"我們先讓這個"},{"start":5428.02,"end":5430.02,"text":"法監長 副法監長這種"},{"start":5430.02,"end":5432.02,"text":"真的是一個指揮監督的"},{"start":5432.02,"end":5433.02,"text":"先申制的"},{"start":5433.02,"end":5435.02,"text":"這個也是我們要做的"},{"start":5435.02,"end":5437.02,"text":"很感謝各位委員"},{"start":5437.02,"end":5438.02,"text":"如果願意支持"},{"start":5438.02,"end":5440.02,"text":"真的我們當初的"},{"start":5440.02,"end":5442.02,"text":"跟委員 我承認"},{"start":5442.02,"end":5443.02,"text":"當初我們設想"},{"start":5443.02,"end":5444.02,"text":"就是因為什麼考試之內"},{"start":5444.02,"end":5446.02,"text":"就被限制住了"},{"start":5446.02,"end":5448.02,"text":"所以沒有說我們"},{"start":5448.02,"end":5449.02,"text":"像陳委員所說的"},{"start":5449.02,"end":5451.02,"text":"就是當然要改變"},{"start":5451.02,"end":5453.02,"text":"我當時真的沒有這樣想"},{"start":5453.02,"end":5455.02,"text":"可是如果"},{"start":5455.02,"end":5456.02,"text":"委員給我們這個力量"},{"start":5456.02,"end":5458.02,"text":"我們當然希望改變"},{"start":5458.02,"end":5459.02,"text":"我希望因為司法院"},{"start":5459.02,"end":5460.02,"text":"我們自己看到了"},{"start":5460.02,"end":5462.02,"text":"很多實務上面的一些問題"},{"start":5462.02,"end":5464.02,"text":"那其實委員在過去這半年來"},{"start":5464.02,"end":5466.02,"text":"也有給很多的提醒跟建議"},{"start":5466.02,"end":5467.02,"text":"以及我想不分黨派"},{"start":5467.02,"end":5468.02,"text":"大家對於法警的一些"},{"start":5468.02,"end":5470.02,"text":"薪資福利待遇等等"},{"start":5470.02,"end":5472.02,"text":"各種我們都是積極的來爭取"},{"start":5472.02,"end":5474.02,"text":"那我希望司法院"},{"start":5474.02,"end":5475.02,"text":"也應該要考量到"},{"start":5475.02,"end":5476.02,"text":"我們自己員工在"},{"start":5476.02,"end":5478.02,"text":"工作環境的處境"},{"start":5478.02,"end":5480.02,"text":"而不是等到大家都不來的時候"},{"start":5480.02,"end":5482.02,"text":"我們才來改善"},{"start":5482.02,"end":5483.02,"text":"真的就有點太晚了"},{"start":5483.02,"end":5484.02,"text":"所以我希望就是說"},{"start":5484.02,"end":5486.02,"text":"司法院在這一點上面"},{"start":5486.02,"end":5487.02,"text":"也一定要來配合"},{"start":5487.02,"end":5489.02,"text":"一定要來去同步的調整好不好"},{"start":5489.02,"end":5491.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5494.24,"end":5495.24,"text":"謝謝張委員"},{"start":5503.68,"end":5505.68,"text":"好 接下來我們請"},{"start":5505.68,"end":5507.68,"text":"歐小黎委員進行質詢"},{"start":5512.01,"end":5513.01,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5513.01,"end":5515.01,"text":"我在這邊有請高秘書長"},{"start":5515.01,"end":5517.01,"text":"還有淮旭次長"},{"start":5517.41,"end":5520.41,"text":"好 麻煩高秘書長還有淮次長"},{"start":5520.41,"end":5522.41,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5523.49,"end":5526.49,"text":"好 這個秘書長還有次長"},{"start":5526.49,"end":5529.49,"text":"我想我這裡首先先就針對"},{"start":5529.49,"end":5532.49,"text":"這次我們修正法院組織法"},{"start":5532.49,"end":5533.49,"text":"等等相關的"},{"start":5533.49,"end":5535.49,"text":"專業法院的組織法裡面"},{"start":5535.49,"end":5537.49,"text":"調整書記官的職等"},{"start":5537.49,"end":5538.49,"text":"還有法警長的職等"},{"start":5538.49,"end":5539.49,"text":"以及法警的職等"},{"start":5539.49,"end":5542.49,"text":"來跟兩位來進行討論"},{"start":5542.49,"end":5544.49,"text":"因為事實上就是"},{"start":5544.49,"end":5546.49,"text":"我在7月20號的時候"},{"start":5546.49,"end":5548.49,"text":"其實也去桃園地方法院"},{"start":5548.49,"end":5550.49,"text":"當時去參訪"},{"start":5550.49,"end":5552.49,"text":"那麼就精神衛生法"},{"start":5552.49,"end":5553.49,"text":"法官參審制"},{"start":5553.49,"end":5554.49,"text":"以及司法人力的制度"},{"start":5554.49,"end":5557.49,"text":"來進行一個考察"},{"start":5557.49,"end":5558.49,"text":"那根據司法院的簡報"},{"start":5558.49,"end":5559.49,"text":"其實現在因為"},{"start":5559.49,"end":5561.49,"text":"詐欺案件量大量的增加"},{"start":5561.49,"end":5563.49,"text":"那麼法警體檢人犯的次數"},{"start":5563.49,"end":5565.49,"text":"也呈現了爆炸性的成長"},{"start":5565.49,"end":5568.49,"text":"114年的他們這個"},{"start":5568.49,"end":5571.49,"text":"體檢人犯的次數比"},{"start":5571.49,"end":5572.49,"text":"112年同期"},{"start":5572.49,"end":5574.49,"text":"基本上就增加了"},{"start":5574.49,"end":5577.49,"text":"45%的這樣很高的比例"},{"start":5577.49,"end":5580.49,"text":"等於說工作量將近增加了五成"},{"start":5580.49,"end":5583.49,"text":"所以我們也因為看到"},{"start":5583.49,"end":5585.49,"text":"其實法警也很辛苦"},{"start":5585.86,"end":5588.86,"text":"所以在本行這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":5588.86,"end":5590.86,"text":"我就是將法警的職等"},{"start":5590.86,"end":5592.86,"text":"從現在的委任三職等到五職等"},{"start":5592.86,"end":5594.86,"text":"然後又往上面提高到"},{"start":5594.86,"end":5595.86,"text":"建任六職等"},{"start":5595.86,"end":5597.86,"text":"那麼可是事實上"},{"start":5597.86,"end":5599.86,"text":"剛剛聽了就是秘書長"},{"start":5599.86,"end":5600.86,"text":"基本上可能也支持"},{"start":5600.86,"end":5603.86,"text":"我們可以就是將法警的職等調高"},{"start":5603.86,"end":5606.86,"text":"但是全序部這裡是反對的"},{"start":5606.86,"end":5609.86,"text":"那全序部的理由是說"},{"start":5609.86,"end":5611.86,"text":"因為在公務人員任用法裡面"},{"start":5611.86,"end":5613.86,"text":"現在最多職等的調整"},{"start":5613.86,"end":5615.86,"text":"只能夠調兩個職等是不是"},{"start":5616.71,"end":5618.71,"text":"兩到三個職等"},{"start":5618.71,"end":5620.71,"text":"所以如果說從委任三職等到"},{"start":5620.71,"end":5622.71,"text":"建任六職等的話"},{"start":5622.71,"end":5624.71,"text":"就等於調了四個職等"},{"start":5624.71,"end":5627.71,"text":"因此你們是反對這樣的一個做法"},{"start":5627.71,"end":5629.71,"text":"而且也認為說是"},{"start":5629.71,"end":5632.71,"text":"這個法警應該要跟警察的職等"},{"start":5634.24,"end":5636.24,"text":"是不是剛次的意思是"},{"start":5636.24,"end":5638.24,"text":"我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5638.24,"end":5640.24,"text":"就是說這次的調整"},{"start":5640.24,"end":5642.24,"text":"包括書記官、副法警長、法警長"},{"start":5642.24,"end":5643.24,"text":"還有隊長"},{"start":5643.24,"end":5646.24,"text":"這我們考試院跟全序部都是支持的"},{"start":5646.24,"end":5647.24,"text":"之前討論都這樣"},{"start":5647.24,"end":5649.24,"text":"那麼在之前那個法警的部分"},{"start":5649.24,"end":5651.24,"text":"曾經有來談的是說"},{"start":5651.24,"end":5654.24,"text":"希望從三到五調整為四到五"},{"start":5654.24,"end":5656.24,"text":"但這個部分考試院跟全序部"},{"start":5656.24,"end":5658.24,"text":"我們這邊的意見是說"},{"start":5658.24,"end":5660.24,"text":"考試初任職務就是"},{"start":5660.24,"end":5662.24,"text":"因為四等考試就是三職等任用"},{"start":5662.24,"end":5664.24,"text":"一出任就全理"},{"start":5664.24,"end":5666.24,"text":"這個可能就已經違背了"},{"start":5666.24,"end":5668.24,"text":"我們目前考試的這個制度"},{"start":5668.24,"end":5670.24,"text":"那所以後來這個部分"},{"start":5670.24,"end":5672.24,"text":"就沒有看到有進一步的討論"},{"start":5672.24,"end":5674.24,"text":"那這次您所提的這個草案"},{"start":5674.24,"end":5676.24,"text":"應該是三到五或六"},{"start":5676.24,"end":5678.24,"text":"但是我們這次的書記官調整"},{"start":5678.24,"end":5682.24,"text":"其中三等書記官"},{"start":5682.24,"end":5684.24,"text":"也有受到其中是"},{"start":5684.24,"end":5686.24,"text":"二分之一得列建任第六職等"},{"start":5686.24,"end":5688.24,"text":"但是我們法警這樣的調整"},{"start":5688.24,"end":5690.24,"text":"卻是直接一個職務就變成"},{"start":5690.24,"end":5692.24,"text":"三到五或六"},{"start":5692.24,"end":5694.24,"text":"這兩個之間就會產生"},{"start":5694.24,"end":5696.24,"text":"完全不平衡的狀況"},{"start":5696.24,"end":5698.24,"text":"我想這個全序部的意見"},{"start":5698.24,"end":5700.24,"text":"本身是很清楚"},{"start":5700.24,"end":5702.24,"text":"但是我現在要談就是說"},{"start":5702.24,"end":5704.24,"text":"我們現在的這種直等官等表"},{"start":5704.24,"end":5706.24,"text":"有多少年沒有修了"},{"start":5706.33,"end":5708.33,"text":"我們事實上最近都一直在修"},{"start":5708.33,"end":5710.33,"text":"就是以目前現在來講"},{"start":5710.33,"end":5712.33,"text":"我們這一套制度"},{"start":5712.33,"end":5714.33,"text":"有沒有七十年都沒修了"},{"start":5713.94,"end":5715.94,"text":"從民國幾年就開始實施"},{"start":5715.94,"end":5717.94,"text":"民國七十六年實施"},{"start":5717.94,"end":5719.94,"text":"新人士制度以後"},{"start":5719.94,"end":5721.94,"text":"中間很多植物類都有在調整"},{"start":5721.94,"end":5723.94,"text":"七十年開始實施到現在"},{"start":5723.94,"end":5725.94,"text":"但是植物類等都有在調整"},{"start":5725.94,"end":5727.94,"text":"歷次這幾年來都"},{"start":5727.94,"end":5729.94,"text":"十幾年來每一次都有在調整"},{"start":5729.94,"end":5731.94,"text":"那現在的問題就是說因為呢"},{"start":5731.94,"end":5733.94,"text":"這個法警跟警察其實他們的本俸"},{"start":5733.94,"end":5735.94,"text":"起序都是從一百五十點開始"},{"start":5735.94,"end":5737.94,"text":"就是他們本俸是相同的"},{"start":5737.94,"end":5739.94,"text":"差別基本上是在年供俸"},{"start":5739.94,"end":5741.94,"text":"我們知道整個公共人員的"},{"start":5741.94,"end":5743.94,"text":"他整個公共人員的薪資結構"},{"start":5743.94,"end":5745.94,"text":"他就包含是本俸專業加給"},{"start":5745.94,"end":5747.94,"text":"還有植物加給"},{"start":5747.94,"end":5749.94,"text":"再加上加班費"},{"start":5749.94,"end":5751.94,"text":"那現在法警跟警察其實最大的不同"},{"start":5751.94,"end":5753.94,"text":"就在於說警察的本俸"},{"start":5753.94,"end":5755.94,"text":"他還可以一直往上面調"},{"start":5755.94,"end":5757.94,"text":"他最高可以調到五百五十點"},{"start":5757.94,"end":5759.94,"text":"或是五百點"},{"start":5759.94,"end":5761.94,"text":"或到五百二十五點"},{"start":5761.94,"end":5763.94,"text":"可是呢如果說是法警的話"},{"start":5763.94,"end":5765.94,"text":"他基本上可能就卡死了"},{"start":5765.94,"end":5767.94,"text":"他最高只有到三百三十點"},{"start":5767.94,"end":5769.94,"text":"我覺得也是因為如此"},{"start":5769.94,"end":5771.94,"text":"所以法警同仁才會覺得說"},{"start":5771.94,"end":5773.94,"text":"心裡面很不平衡"},{"start":5773.94,"end":5775.94,"text":"那我們現在要講就是說"},{"start":5775.94,"end":5777.94,"text":"因為我們現在已經提出了這樣的修法"},{"start":5778.23,"end":5780.23,"text":"如果說今天我們在場很多的委員"},{"start":5780.23,"end":5782.23,"text":"包含司法院在內"},{"start":5782.23,"end":5784.23,"text":"我們都支持未來"},{"start":5784.23,"end":5786.23,"text":"這個法警的質等要調到"},{"start":5787.11,"end":5789.11,"text":"見任六職等"},{"start":5789.11,"end":5791.11,"text":"大概不外乎兩種做法"},{"start":5791.11,"end":5793.11,"text":"第一個就是現在的情況就三職等"},{"start":5793.11,"end":5795.11,"text":"就委任三職等然後調到見任六職等"},{"start":5795.11,"end":5797.11,"text":"不然的話如果說要符合"},{"start":5797.11,"end":5799.11,"text":"剛剛全區部的說法"},{"start":5799.11,"end":5801.11,"text":"不然我們就把委任三職等"},{"start":5801.11,"end":5803.11,"text":"的這個地板"},{"start":5803.11,"end":5805.11,"text":"我們就往上面提嘛"},{"start":5805.11,"end":5807.11,"text":"就是委員四職等到見任六職等"},{"start":5807.11,"end":5809.11,"text":"不知道就是全區部這邊看法如何"},{"start":5809.11,"end":5811.11,"text":"我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5811.11,"end":5813.11,"text":"第一個法警跟警察兩個是不同的"},{"start":5813.11,"end":5815.11,"text":"任用制度"},{"start":5815.11,"end":5817.11,"text":"依照警察官的人質條例是禁用"},{"start":5817.11,"end":5819.11,"text":"他們有他們的考試方式訓練方式"},{"start":5819.11,"end":5821.11,"text":"然後這完全是不同的"},{"start":5821.11,"end":5823.11,"text":"養成背景跟說"},{"start":5823.11,"end":5825.11,"text":"而且他們工作內容一個是司法"},{"start":5825.11,"end":5827.11,"text":"一個是工作內容是完全不一樣的"},{"start":5827.11,"end":5829.11,"text":"把兩個東西把兩樣不同"},{"start":5829.11,"end":5831.11,"text":"植物把都成一樣"},{"start":5831.11,"end":5833.11,"text":"這部分可能要請委員再慎重考慮"},{"start":5833.11,"end":5835.11,"text":"那第二個部分是說因為我們現在考試"},{"start":5835.11,"end":5837.11,"text":"及格人員沒有說"},{"start":5837.11,"end":5839.11,"text":"直接就直接就進行權利"},{"start":5839.11,"end":5841.11,"text":"因為在任用制度上"},{"start":5841.11,"end":5843.11,"text":"用權利這是這個是指說"},{"start":5843.11,"end":5845.11,"text":"但是因為你表現很好"},{"start":5845.11,"end":5847.11,"text":"所以你申請的比較快"},{"start":5847.11,"end":5849.11,"text":"所以才會有權利這樣的一個概念"},{"start":5849.11,"end":5851.11,"text":"我只是用白話說法"},{"start":5851.11,"end":5853.11,"text":"可是你一考試資格進來"},{"start":5853.11,"end":5855.11,"text":"就用三職人"},{"start":5855.11,"end":5857.11,"text":"權利第四職都還在試用階段"},{"start":5857.11,"end":5859.11,"text":"試用階段"},{"start":5859.11,"end":5861.11,"text":"就進行權利這個"},{"start":5861.11,"end":5863.11,"text":"在法律上這樣"},{"start":5863.11,"end":5865.11,"text":"是不妥適的"},{"start":5865.11,"end":5867.11,"text":"而且我再跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5867.11,"end":5869.11,"text":"因為就像我們說的"},{"start":5869.11,"end":5871.11,"text":"公務人員的質等官等的這套制度"},{"start":5871.11,"end":5873.11,"text":"已經幾十年沒有改變了"},{"start":5873.11,"end":5875.11,"text":"那的確它反映出很多"},{"start":5875.11,"end":5877.11,"text":"現在一些不合理的現象"},{"start":5877.11,"end":5879.11,"text":"那我們現在就是要解決問題"},{"start":5879.11,"end":5881.11,"text":"我們是希望說能夠將法警的"},{"start":5881.11,"end":5883.11,"text":"質等然後"},{"start":5883.11,"end":5885.11,"text":"申簽的質等然後能夠"},{"start":5885.11,"end":5887.11,"text":"做個合理的調整"},{"start":5887.11,"end":5889.11,"text":"那你不能說我們今天所有的提案"},{"start":5889.11,"end":5891.11,"text":"然後全序部都說又違反公務人員認訪"},{"start":5891.11,"end":5893.11,"text":"又違反什麼什麼我們現在希望能夠"},{"start":5893.11,"end":5895.11,"text":"解決所以本行希望全序部"},{"start":5895.11,"end":5897.11,"text":"是不是可以提供一套"},{"start":5897.11,"end":5899.11,"text":"比較好的方式總之"},{"start":5899.11,"end":5901.11,"text":"我們就是要將法警的質等往上面提高"},{"start":5901.11,"end":5903.11,"text":"那你們認為要怎麼樣"},{"start":5903.11,"end":5905.11,"text":"修法嗎"},{"start":5905.11,"end":5907.11,"text":"不能每次都是我們這邊提的修法"},{"start":5907.11,"end":5909.11,"text":"然後你們都一再的反對再反對"},{"start":5909.11,"end":5911.11,"text":"就像是我們修改這個"},{"start":5911.11,"end":5913.11,"text":"退休公告人員的年金改革法"},{"start":5913.11,"end":5915.11,"text":"也一樣"},{"start":5914.21,"end":5916.21,"text":"我們就是大家就認為"},{"start":5916.21,"end":5918.21,"text":"就一定要這樣做了然後全序部"},{"start":5918.21,"end":5920.21,"text":"還是從頭到尾都反對"},{"start":5920.21,"end":5922.21,"text":"甚至連我們法律通過了你們還可以"},{"start":5922.21,"end":5924.21,"text":"做歪曲的解釋我不覺得說"},{"start":5924.21,"end":5926.21,"text":"我認為說這是全序部"},{"start":5926.21,"end":5928.21,"text":"一個推卸責任的做法"},{"start":5928.21,"end":5930.21,"text":"這個法律生效"},{"start":5930.21,"end":5932.21,"text":"依照中法規標準法規就是"},{"start":5932.21,"end":5934.21,"text":"向後生效這個部分"},{"start":5934.21,"end":5936.21,"text":"絕對不是我們部裡面"},{"start":5936.21,"end":5938.21,"text":"可以用歪曲解釋的"},{"start":5938.21,"end":5940.21,"text":"這個部分我不跟你們"},{"start":5940.21,"end":5942.21,"text":"討論因為這個"},{"start":5942.21,"end":5944.21,"text":"本來就法律的間接解釋"},{"start":5944.21,"end":5946.21,"text":"本來就有很大的不同我只是認為說"},{"start":5946.21,"end":5948.21,"text":"全序部你們就是去做了一個"},{"start":5948.21,"end":5950.21,"text":"最不合理的解釋"},{"start":5950.21,"end":5952.21,"text":"那麼回到我們今天講的法院組織法的修法"},{"start":5953.97,"end":5955.97,"text":"我希望你們能夠提出"},{"start":5955.97,"end":5957.97,"text":"如果我們要解決這個案子"},{"start":5957.97,"end":5959.97,"text":"要怎麼樣從法律上面去解決"},{"start":5959.97,"end":5961.97,"text":"否則的話我們可能就按照我們現在"},{"start":5961.97,"end":5963.97,"text":"這個幾個委員的這個版本"},{"start":5963.97,"end":5965.97,"text":"我們就這樣通過了不要到時候"},{"start":5965.97,"end":5967.97,"text":"這個全序部又說這有違憲"},{"start":5967.97,"end":5969.97,"text":"又什麼什麼的問題"},{"start":5969.97,"end":5971.97,"text":"好那麼在這裡的話就"},{"start":5971.97,"end":5973.97,"text":"先謝謝懷旭懷制長"},{"start":5973.97,"end":5975.97,"text":"那也希望你們一個月內可以給我"},{"start":5975.97,"end":5977.97,"text":"提出一個一個月內"},{"start":5977.97,"end":5979.97,"text":"我覺得太晚了因為我們這個法案會加速進行"},{"start":5979.97,"end":5981.97,"text":"麻煩兩個禮拜"},{"start":5981.97,"end":5983.97,"text":"兩個星期之內給我一個"},{"start":5983.97,"end":5985.97,"text":"這個就是你們提的"},{"start":5985.97,"end":5987.97,"text":"相關的"},{"start":5987.97,"end":5989.97,"text":"這方案好不好就是我們如果說"},{"start":5989.97,"end":5991.97,"text":"要朝向提高值等的話"},{"start":5991.97,"end":5993.97,"text":"你們的建議做法是如何"},{"start":5993.97,"end":5995.97,"text":"好那就謝謝次長好那接下來"},{"start":5995.97,"end":5997.97,"text":"我要再請教秘書長的是"},{"start":5999.43,"end":6001.43,"text":"最近其實有人在反映"},{"start":6001.43,"end":6003.43,"text":"我們看到桃園的一個法官"},{"start":6005.52,"end":6007.52,"text":"他在判決書上面"},{"start":6007.52,"end":6009.52,"text":"這個寫了一段"},{"start":6009.52,"end":6011.52,"text":"很奇怪的話"},{"start":6011.52,"end":6013.52,"text":"那麼我們我想這個"},{"start":6013.52,"end":6015.52,"text":"高律書長因為您當法官也"},{"start":6015.52,"end":6017.52,"text":"這麼多年您大家很清楚"},{"start":6017.52,"end":6019.52,"text":"知道我們判決書的格式大概"},{"start":6019.52,"end":6021.52,"text":"是怎麼樣通常大概就是"},{"start":6021.52,"end":6023.52,"text":"判決主文主文之後"},{"start":6023.52,"end":6025.52,"text":"就會寫事實及理由你有"},{"start":6025.52,"end":6027.52,"text":"曾經有看過人家在事實理由"},{"start":6027.52,"end":6029.52,"text":"之後的第一段"},{"start":6029.52,"end":6031.52,"text":"先寫個叫寫在最"},{"start":6031.52,"end":6033.52,"text":"前面"},{"start":6033.43,"end":6035.43,"text":"然後再開始去敘述"},{"start":6035.43,"end":6037.43,"text":"這個事實或者理由之前"},{"start":6037.43,"end":6039.43,"text":"還先寫個前言"},{"start":6041.37,"end":6043.37,"text":"這當然這個"},{"start":6043.37,"end":6045.37,"text":"我不知道之前有沒有法官陳久這麼做"},{"start":6045.37,"end":6047.37,"text":"但是呢我曉得的是說其實過去"},{"start":6047.37,"end":6049.37,"text":"也曾經發生過還蠻多起的"},{"start":6049.37,"end":6051.37,"text":"這個在法官"},{"start":6051.37,"end":6053.37,"text":"他在寫完判決書之後"},{"start":6053.37,"end":6055.37,"text":"他寫個後記"},{"start":6055.37,"end":6057.37,"text":"對一個什麼附註事項"},{"start":6057.37,"end":6059.37,"text":"譬如說在早期有個法官書書"},{"start":6059.37,"end":6061.37,"text":"的判決他就寫個附記"},{"start":6061.37,"end":6063.37,"text":"事項或是說有所謂這種可憐"},{"start":6063.37,"end":6065.37,"text":"小人物法官說這些"},{"start":6065.37,"end":6067.37,"text":"這個當事人可能是個可憐小人物"},{"start":6067.37,"end":6069.37,"text":"所以有所謂可憐小人物的判決"},{"start":6069.37,"end":6071.37,"text":"後面寫個後記"},{"start":6071.37,"end":6073.37,"text":"或者是還有一個法官他就"},{"start":6073.37,"end":6075.37,"text":"當時正好流行看這個"},{"start":6075.37,"end":6077.37,"text":"與惡的距離所以他就"},{"start":6077.37,"end":6079.37,"text":"寫個與惡的距離的判決"},{"start":6079.37,"end":6081.37,"text":"後面也寫了一個本案"},{"start":6081.37,"end":6083.37,"text":"審理後的註記"},{"start":6083.37,"end":6085.37,"text":"所以類似像這種我們現在判決書"},{"start":6085.37,"end":6087.37,"text":"裡面三不五時"},{"start":6087.37,"end":6089.37,"text":"可能會看到一些奇奇怪怪的"},{"start":6089.37,"end":6091.37,"text":"這種現象不知道就是"},{"start":6091.37,"end":6093.37,"text":"民事長因為您"},{"start":6093.37,"end":6095.37,"text":"先前是當法院的院長"},{"start":6095.37,"end":6097.37,"text":"現在又當了司法院民事長"},{"start":6097.37,"end":6099.37,"text":"你有沒有認為像這樣子的判決書的撰寫"},{"start":6101.58,"end":6103.58,"text":"方式應該司法院"},{"start":6103.58,"end":6105.58,"text":"要做一個行政指導"},{"start":6105.58,"end":6107.58,"text":"或是要頒布一個注意事項"},{"start":6107.58,"end":6109.58,"text":"我們可以容許這樣的寫法嗎"},{"start":6109.58,"end":6111.58,"text":"跟委員報告其實"},{"start":6111.58,"end":6113.58,"text":"判決該怎麼寫訴訟法"},{"start":6113.58,"end":6115.58,"text":"規定的清清楚楚"},{"start":6116.16,"end":6118.16,"text":"那法官們他要多寫"},{"start":6118.16,"end":6120.16,"text":"他不是無效"},{"start":6120.16,"end":6122.16,"text":"他可能要表達他的情緒"},{"start":6122.16,"end":6124.16,"text":"當然對於情緒的表達是不是在"},{"start":6125.54,"end":6127.54,"text":"整個訴訟法規定的範圍內"},{"start":6127.54,"end":6129.54,"text":"老實說"},{"start":6129.54,"end":6131.54,"text":"你要問我個人意見的話"},{"start":6131.54,"end":6133.54,"text":"是有斟酌的餘地"},{"start":6133.54,"end":6135.54,"text":"是"},{"start":6135.54,"end":6137.54,"text":"這種話要不要在這邊寫"},{"start":6137.99,"end":6139.99,"text":"問我個人意見"},{"start":6139.9,"end":6141.9,"text":"我是不建議"},{"start":6141.9,"end":6143.9,"text":"因為有時候"},{"start":6143.75,"end":6145.75,"text":"可能應該在法庭上"},{"start":6145.75,"end":6147.75,"text":"跟當事人講就好了"},{"start":6147.75,"end":6149.75,"text":"不需要寫到判決裡面去"},{"start":6149.75,"end":6151.75,"text":"是"},{"start":6151.75,"end":6153.75,"text":"我講判決的格式"},{"start":6152.99,"end":6154.99,"text":"我個人是認為"},{"start":6154.99,"end":6156.99,"text":"一定要是嚴謹而且是嚴肅"},{"start":6157.63,"end":6159.63,"text":"是非常贊同秘書長的這個"},{"start":6159.63,"end":6161.63,"text":"觀點"},{"start":6161.63,"end":6163.63,"text":"因為我跟您一樣的看法"},{"start":6163.63,"end":6165.63,"text":"我覺得在判決書的這個裡面"},{"start":6165.63,"end":6167.63,"text":"在第一段他先寫個前言"},{"start":6167.63,"end":6169.63,"text":"還告訴這個當事人說"},{"start":6169.63,"end":6171.63,"text":"你不要問"},{"start":6171.63,"end":6173.63,"text":"假設要提上訴的話"},{"start":6173.63,"end":6175.63,"text":"不要問AI"},{"start":6175.63,"end":6177.63,"text":"要去找一個有血有肉的"},{"start":6177.63,"end":6179.63,"text":"有執照的律師"},{"start":6179.63,"end":6181.63,"text":"來幫他上訴"},{"start":6181.63,"end":6183.63,"text":"我覺得其實這個都已經愉悅了"},{"start":6183.63,"end":6185.63,"text":"這個法官的這個職權"},{"start":6185.63,"end":6187.63,"text":"不知道這個秘書長"},{"start":6187.63,"end":6189.63,"text":"有沒有知道你們之前"},{"start":6189.63,"end":6191.63,"text":"有一位台灣高等法院"},{"start":6191.63,"end":6193.63,"text":"台南分院的法官叫林徵賢"},{"start":6193.63,"end":6195.63,"text":"他曾經有寫過一篇"},{"start":6195.63,"end":6197.63,"text":"報告一篇論文"},{"start":6197.63,"end":6199.63,"text":"講說從我國判決書的"},{"start":6199.63,"end":6201.63,"text":"復記事項來談當時他就"},{"start":6201.63,"end":6203.63,"text":"講就是說有很多的法官"},{"start":6203.63,"end":6205.63,"text":"他可能會在判決之後但是在"},{"start":6205.63,"end":6207.63,"text":"法官簽名之前"},{"start":6207.63,"end":6209.63,"text":"他寫了他的感想"},{"start":6209.63,"end":6211.63,"text":"他的這個復記事項"},{"start":6211.63,"end":6213.63,"text":"他也有從法律的角度去"},{"start":6213.63,"end":6215.63,"text":"去質疑"},{"start":6215.63,"end":6217.63,"text":"類似這種復記事項"},{"start":6217.63,"end":6219.63,"text":"他算不算是整體判決書的一部分"},{"start":6219.63,"end":6221.63,"text":"如果說他是整體判決書的一部分"},{"start":6221.63,"end":6223.63,"text":"那麼當當事人"},{"start":6223.63,"end":6225.63,"text":"對於這個復記事項"},{"start":6225.63,"end":6227.63,"text":"或我們現在看這個前沿"},{"start":6227.63,"end":6229.63,"text":"認為內容有"},{"start":6229.63,"end":6231.63,"text":"有違法或是有"},{"start":6231.63,"end":6233.63,"text":"不當的時候可不可以以此"},{"start":6233.63,"end":6235.63,"text":"作為上訴的理由"},{"start":6235.46,"end":6237.46,"text":"我覺得這是一個很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":6237.46,"end":6239.46,"text":"那個回答委員說"},{"start":6239.46,"end":6241.46,"text":"判決是一件嚴肅的"},{"start":6241.46,"end":6243.46,"text":"因為它絕對會牽涉到"},{"start":6243.46,"end":6245.46,"text":"你任何寫的東西"},{"start":6245.46,"end":6247.46,"text":"可不可以作為上訴的標的"},{"start":6247.46,"end":6249.46,"text":"這個是我們在法律上必須要"},{"start":6249.46,"end":6251.46,"text":"很嚴格的"},{"start":6251.46,"end":6253.46,"text":"來審視的"},{"start":6253.46,"end":6255.46,"text":"所以呢因此本席在這邊希望"},{"start":6256.3,"end":6258.3,"text":"司法院是不是也可以在"},{"start":6258.3,"end":6260.3,"text":"兩週內給本席一份"},{"start":6260.3,"end":6262.3,"text":"這個報告就是說"},{"start":6262.3,"end":6264.3,"text":"可不可以請你們針對像類似"},{"start":6264.3,"end":6266.3,"text":"這種法官他在寫判決書上的"},{"start":6266.3,"end":6268.3,"text":"一些這樣的一個奇怪的"},{"start":6268.3,"end":6270.3,"text":"一些做法可以就是"},{"start":6270.3,"end":6272.3,"text":"有一個比較清楚的未來"},{"start":6272.3,"end":6274.3,"text":"要怎麼樣去指導"},{"start":6274.3,"end":6276.3,"text":"或者說是要怎麼樣的去"},{"start":6276.3,"end":6278.3,"text":"處理類似這種判決書的"},{"start":6278.3,"end":6280.3,"text":"撰寫的方式好不好"},{"start":6280.3,"end":6282.3,"text":"因為畢竟在我們民宿跟寫實訴訟法裡面"},{"start":6282.3,"end":6284.3,"text":"都有清楚規定判決書的記載"},{"start":6284.3,"end":6286.3,"text":"牽涉到審判核心"},{"start":6286.3,"end":6288.3,"text":"如果碰到審判核心我們司法行政"},{"start":6288.3,"end":6290.3,"text":"要有這個退縮"},{"start":6290.3,"end":6292.3,"text":"一定要退縮"},{"start":6292.3,"end":6294.3,"text":"當然如果他不是審判核心"},{"start":6294.3,"end":6296.3,"text":"我們可以做指導認測"},{"start":6296.3,"end":6298.3,"text":"是好那這部分的話就是麻煩"},{"start":6298.3,"end":6300.3,"text":"這個情緒組長這邊再給我"},{"start":6300.3,"end":6302.3,"text":"一份報告"},{"start":6302.3,"end":6304.3,"text":"好那接下來第三個問題就是有關於植物"},{"start":6304.3,"end":6306.3,"text":"評定的問題就像我們剛剛講的"},{"start":6306.3,"end":6308.3,"text":"其實有些法官他基本上已經變成"},{"start":6308.3,"end":6310.3,"text":"慣性他很喜歡在判決書裡面"},{"start":6310.3,"end":6312.3,"text":"常常發表他自己的一些高見"},{"start":6312.3,"end":6314.3,"text":"那麼當然除此之外"},{"start":6314.3,"end":6316.3,"text":"也有一些法官他可能涉及到"},{"start":6316.3,"end":6318.3,"text":"有貪污"},{"start":6318.3,"end":6320.3,"text":"或是性騷 霸凌"},{"start":6320.3,"end":6322.3,"text":"最近有出現有檢察官有"},{"start":6322.3,"end":6324.3,"text":"放高利貸等等"},{"start":6324.3,"end":6326.3,"text":"本席想要談的就是說有關於"},{"start":6326.3,"end":6328.3,"text":"這個法官植物評定"},{"start":6328.3,"end":6330.3,"text":"的議題那其實在"},{"start":6330.3,"end":6332.3,"text":"前幾次的質詢裡面我都有關注"},{"start":6332.3,"end":6334.3,"text":"這議題只是當時因為秘書長沒有來"},{"start":6334.3,"end":6336.3,"text":"但我在這裡"},{"start":6336.3,"end":6338.3,"text":"我又看到了還有另外"},{"start":6338.3,"end":6340.3,"text":"一個資料這是我在"},{"start":6340.3,"end":6342.3,"text":"7月8號的時候當時提出質詢希望"},{"start":6342.3,"end":6344.3,"text":"法務部與司法院分別提供"},{"start":6344.3,"end":6346.3,"text":"檢察官及法官植物"},{"start":6346.3,"end":6348.3,"text":"評定的統計數據"},{"start":6348.3,"end":6350.3,"text":"結果我不看不知道一看嚇了一跳"},{"start":6350.3,"end":6352.3,"text":"原來我們所有的四個"},{"start":6352.3,"end":6354.3,"text":"司法官幾乎都是完人"},{"start":6354.3,"end":6356.3,"text":"因為這個在"},{"start":6356.3,"end":6358.3,"text":"從評鑑的統計"},{"start":6358.3,"end":6360.3,"text":"資料裡面顯示"},{"start":6360.3,"end":6362.3,"text":"幾乎99%"},{"start":6362.3,"end":6364.3,"text":"的法官"},{"start":6364.3,"end":6366.3,"text":"都是良好"},{"start":6366.3,"end":6368.3,"text":"那麼真正"},{"start":6368.3,"end":6370.3,"text":"為達良好的法官的比例"},{"start":6370.3,"end":6372.3,"text":"是非常之低"},{"start":6372.3,"end":6374.3,"text":"大概就100個人裡面頂多"},{"start":6374.3,"end":6376.3,"text":"一個人所謂的"},{"start":6376.3,"end":6378.3,"text":"這個表現不好可是"},{"start":6378.3,"end":6380.3,"text":"事實上我們這些年也的確看到"},{"start":6380.3,"end":6382.3,"text":"蠻多社會新聞有看到就是"},{"start":6382.3,"end":6384.3,"text":"檢察官他不管"},{"start":6384.3,"end":6386.3,"text":"在他的這個"},{"start":6386.3,"end":6388.3,"text":"起訴行為或者法官"},{"start":6388.3,"end":6390.3,"text":"在他判決裡面其實也出了一些問題"},{"start":6390.3,"end":6392.3,"text":"那麼對於這個部分我想"},{"start":6392.3,"end":6394.3,"text":"請教就是司法院"},{"start":6394.3,"end":6396.3,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":6395.34,"end":6397.34,"text":"參考現在公務人員的"},{"start":6397.34,"end":6399.34,"text":"這種考績制度"},{"start":6399.34,"end":6401.34,"text":"應該將你們植物評等"},{"start":6401.34,"end":6403.34,"text":"植物評定的制度"},{"start":6403.34,"end":6405.34,"text":"要進行一些改革"},{"start":6405.34,"end":6407.34,"text":"目前就只有兩分法"},{"start":6407.34,"end":6409.34,"text":"不是良好就是為達良好"},{"start":6409.34,"end":6411.34,"text":"但是這個沒有辦法去"},{"start":6411.34,"end":6413.34,"text":"真的去鑑別到底良好之外"},{"start":6413.34,"end":6415.34,"text":"還有沒有更優秀的"},{"start":6415.34,"end":6417.34,"text":"而為達良好"},{"start":6417.34,"end":6419.34,"text":"其實我們看到他整個結果是"},{"start":6419.34,"end":6421.34,"text":"人數和比例很低所以事實上"},{"start":6421.34,"end":6423.34,"text":"好像並沒有辦法真的"},{"start":6423.34,"end":6425.34,"text":"去淘汰壞法官"},{"start":6425.34,"end":6427.34,"text":"或是壞檢察官"},{"start":6427.34,"end":6429.34,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":6429.34,"end":6431.34,"text":"我想良好就是良好不要再去優秀"},{"start":6431.34,"end":6433.34,"text":"什麼特優我覺得不要造成"},{"start":6433.34,"end":6435.34,"text":"一個競爭關係"},{"start":6435.34,"end":6437.34,"text":"那只是不良好我們有沒有說"},{"start":6437.34,"end":6439.34,"text":"對於不適任的法官"},{"start":6439.34,"end":6441.34,"text":"我們是給他良好嗎其實跟委員報告"},{"start":6441.34,"end":6443.34,"text":"我們會常常看到"},{"start":6443.34,"end":6445.34,"text":"法官有些判決好像"},{"start":6446.04,"end":6448.04,"text":"好像有點走歪了"},{"start":6448.04,"end":6450.04,"text":"可是要跟委員報告"},{"start":6450.04,"end":6454.04,"text":"法官在整年的判決上萬件"},{"start":6454.04,"end":6456.04,"text":"他偶爾一兩件"},{"start":6456.04,"end":6458.04,"text":"沒錯是有瑕疵"},{"start":6458.04,"end":6460.04,"text":"我們可以因為這一兩件"},{"start":6460.04,"end":6462.04,"text":"就說他不良好嗎"},{"start":6462.04,"end":6464.04,"text":"其實這個是我們必須要慎重考慮"},{"start":6464.04,"end":6466.04,"text":"我常常開玩笑講說吃芝麻"},{"start":6466.04,"end":6468.04,"text":"吃燒餅偶爾就會掉一兩粒芝麻"},{"start":6468.04,"end":6470.04,"text":"除非"},{"start":6469.84,"end":6471.84,"text":"委員提到的那種行為錯誤"},{"start":6471.84,"end":6473.84,"text":"像一些言行不檢"},{"start":6473.84,"end":6475.84,"text":"有封禁為師"},{"start":6475.84,"end":6477.84,"text":"或有什麼性騷"},{"start":6477.84,"end":6479.84,"text":"霸凌的這些司法人員"},{"start":6479.84,"end":6481.84,"text":"像這樣子的法官"},{"start":6481.84,"end":6483.84,"text":"他指不良好"},{"start":6483.84,"end":6485.84,"text":"一定都是送評鑑"},{"start":6485.84,"end":6487.84,"text":"我想那一種法官"},{"start":6487.84,"end":6489.84,"text":"我們司法院"},{"start":6489.84,"end":6491.84,"text":"也絕對不會讓他存在"},{"start":6491.84,"end":6493.84,"text":"可是對於某些判決的瑕疵"},{"start":6493.84,"end":6495.84,"text":"真的"},{"start":6496.79,"end":6498.79,"text":"很難說他在處理上萬件的案件"},{"start":6498.79,"end":6500.79,"text":"有個兩三件"},{"start":6500.79,"end":6502.79,"text":"可能被非常上訴"},{"start":6502.79,"end":6504.79,"text":"我們看上次的"},{"start":6504.79,"end":6506.79,"text":"主要是針對所謂的"},{"start":6506.79,"end":6508.79,"text":"會放縱獨價的法官"},{"start":6508.79,"end":6510.79,"text":"那麼他們在"},{"start":6510.79,"end":6512.79,"text":"多次的"},{"start":6512.79,"end":6514.79,"text":"獨價的羈押裁定裡面"},{"start":6514.79,"end":6516.79,"text":"每一次他都是"},{"start":6516.79,"end":6518.79,"text":"像類似這種情況"},{"start":6518.79,"end":6520.79,"text":"其實也已經影響到社會觀感"},{"start":6520.79,"end":6522.79,"text":"那麼在你們植物評定法裡面"},{"start":6522.79,"end":6524.79,"text":"本來其實就有講"},{"start":6524.79,"end":6526.79,"text":"就是法官的這個言行"},{"start":6526.79,"end":6528.79,"text":"或他所做的裁定判決"},{"start":6528.79,"end":6530.79,"text":"如果說有損害社會的觀感的話"},{"start":6530.79,"end":6532.79,"text":"有損害社會的司法信任的話"},{"start":6532.79,"end":6534.79,"text":"你們其實也是可以做檢討的"},{"start":6534.79,"end":6536.79,"text":"但是這個部分我其實"},{"start":6536.79,"end":6538.79,"text":"我沒有看到司法院對這個議題"},{"start":6538.79,"end":6540.79,"text":"有更深入的反思"},{"start":6540.79,"end":6542.79,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":6542.79,"end":6544.79,"text":"本期當然今天時間有限"},{"start":6544.79,"end":6546.79,"text":"那我希望就是"},{"start":6546.79,"end":6548.79,"text":"是不是可以請秘書長"},{"start":6548.79,"end":6550.79,"text":"可以就植物評定的部分"},{"start":6550.79,"end":6552.79,"text":"你們也可以再去做個檢討"},{"start":6552.79,"end":6554.79,"text":"沒有收集到審判核心"},{"start":6554.79,"end":6556.79,"text":"我們絕對檢討"},{"start":6556.79,"end":6558.79,"text":"我們一定要遵守"},{"start":6558.79,"end":6560.79,"text":"行為舉止"},{"start":6560.79,"end":6562.79,"text":"行為舉止"},{"start":6562.79,"end":6564.79,"text":"還有他的多次的判決"},{"start":6564.79,"end":6566.79,"text":"可能都已經影響到"},{"start":6566.79,"end":6568.79,"text":"社會觀感的時候"},{"start":6568.79,"end":6570.79,"text":"我覺得這個部分其實是可以進行檢討的"},{"start":6570.79,"end":6572.79,"text":"可是如果判決是審判核心"},{"start":6572.79,"end":6574.79,"text":"真的要請委員報告"},{"start":6576.64,"end":6578.64,"text":"好,謝謝翁委員"},{"start":6587.68,"end":6589.68,"text":"好,接下來我們有請審發會委員發言"},{"start":6598.44,"end":6600.44,"text":"主席我們請"},{"start":6600.44,"end":6602.44,"text":"高民主長"},{"start":6601.78,"end":6603.78,"text":"有請高秘書長"},{"start":6606.78,"end":6608.78,"text":"好,秘書長早"},{"start":6608.78,"end":6610.78,"text":"我們今天排了"},{"start":6610.78,"end":6612.78,"text":"總委會排了16個法案"},{"start":6612.78,"end":6614.78,"text":"基本上就是"},{"start":6614.78,"end":6616.78,"text":"一個法院組織法"},{"start":6616.78,"end":6618.78,"text":"跟四個專業法院的組織法"},{"start":6618.78,"end":6620.78,"text":"大概就是這些"},{"start":6620.78,"end":6622.78,"text":"那這有16個法案"},{"start":6622.78,"end":6624.78,"text":"但是裡面就獨缺我們司法院的版本"},{"start":6624.78,"end":6626.78,"text":"我們的版本到昨天"},{"start":6626.78,"end":6628.78,"text":"我們8月3號送進來了"},{"start":6628.78,"end":6630.78,"text":"就8月3號"},{"start":6630.78,"end":6632.78,"text":"就昨天送到理法院"},{"start":6632.78,"end":6634.78,"text":"終於"},{"start":6634.78,"end":6636.78,"text":"是,謝謝"},{"start":6636.78,"end":6638.78,"text":"所以這個變成說"},{"start":6638.78,"end":6640.78,"text":"所以會變成我們今天列的案子沒有司法院的版本"},{"start":6640.78,"end":6642.78,"text":"那我們希望說這個"},{"start":6642.78,"end":6644.78,"text":"我們傳續在未來"},{"start":6644.78,"end":6646.78,"text":"真的進入主條討論的時候"},{"start":6646.78,"end":6648.78,"text":"能夠納入司法院的版本"},{"start":6648.78,"end":6650.78,"text":"一起討論"},{"start":6650.78,"end":6652.78,"text":"不過我看這16個案子大致上"},{"start":6652.78,"end":6654.78,"text":"其實大家的方向都滿一致"},{"start":6654.78,"end":6656.78,"text":"跟司法院的版本就是有一些部分"},{"start":6656.78,"end":6658.78,"text":"的差距"},{"start":6658.78,"end":6660.78,"text":"差別,但是基本上的方向都很一致"},{"start":6660.78,"end":6662.78,"text":"這一次這個"},{"start":6662.78,"end":6664.78,"text":"這個五個法院組織法的"},{"start":6664.78,"end":6666.78,"text":"這個草案裡面大概"},{"start":6667.73,"end":6669.73,"text":"這是三個重點"},{"start":6669.99,"end":6671.99,"text":"第一個就是"},{"start":6671.99,"end":6673.99,"text":"剛剛大家討論很多的就是有關於書記官的質等"},{"start":6673.99,"end":6675.99,"text":"跟這個"},{"start":6675.99,"end":6677.99,"text":"見證原則的這個比例"},{"start":6677.99,"end":6679.99,"text":"的提高"},{"start":6679.99,"end":6681.99,"text":"這是第一個重點"},{"start":6681.99,"end":6683.99,"text":"第二個就是有關於法警的這個主管的質等"},{"start":6683.99,"end":6685.99,"text":"跟法警執勤的權限"},{"start":6685.99,"end":6687.99,"text":"這大概是第二個方向"},{"start":6687.99,"end":6689.99,"text":"那第三個就是"},{"start":6689.99,"end":6691.99,"text":"有關違反法庭秩序的這個分級"},{"start":6691.99,"end":6693.99,"text":"的處罰機制"},{"start":6693.99,"end":6695.99,"text":"大概我看這一次大概就這三個部分"},{"start":6695.99,"end":6697.99,"text":"所以我就這三個部分一個一個來"},{"start":6697.99,"end":6699.99,"text":"請"},{"start":6699.99,"end":6701.99,"text":"這個大方向我們都肯定了"},{"start":6701.99,"end":6703.99,"text":"這個基本上這個就是"},{"start":6703.32,"end":6705.32,"text":"這個改革的方向是值得肯定的"},{"start":6705.32,"end":6707.32,"text":"而且他是"},{"start":6707.32,"end":6709.32,"text":"希望能夠讓這個司法校能跟安全維護"},{"start":6709.32,"end":6711.32,"text":"還有這個人民的訴訟權利"},{"start":6711.32,"end":6713.32,"text":"能夠同步提升"},{"start":6713.32,"end":6715.32,"text":"但是裡面有一些"},{"start":6715.32,"end":6717.32,"text":"小小的問題"},{"start":6717.32,"end":6719.32,"text":"我想應該請這個我們司法院這邊"},{"start":6719.32,"end":6721.32,"text":"要說明比較清楚一點"},{"start":6723.23,"end":6725.23,"text":"這個我們事實上在"},{"start":6725.23,"end":6727.23,"text":"今年5月4號"},{"start":6727.23,"end":6729.23,"text":"我們就在本委員會在司法院的"},{"start":6729.23,"end":6731.23,"text":"預算審查的時候那時候本席就"},{"start":6731.23,"end":6733.23,"text":"針對這個書記官的包括"},{"start":6733.23,"end":6735.23,"text":"質等調整包括書記官的這個"},{"start":6735.23,"end":6737.23,"text":"這個工作壓力缺額的問題"},{"start":6737.23,"end":6739.23,"text":"那時候跟跟秘書長"},{"start":6739.23,"end":6741.23,"text":"我們有進行過討論"},{"start":6741.23,"end":6743.23,"text":"那這個"},{"start":6743.1,"end":6745.1,"text":"這個那時候討論重點就是說"},{"start":6745.1,"end":6747.1,"text":"一方面我們今年有調整"},{"start":6747.1,"end":6749.1,"text":"這個書記官的這個"},{"start":6749.1,"end":6751.1,"text":"這個加級"},{"start":6751.1,"end":6753.1,"text":"書記官加級調整三成"},{"start":6753.1,"end":6755.1,"text":"那這個"},{"start":6754.89,"end":6756.89,"text":"我們目前的這個"},{"start":6756.89,"end":6758.89,"text":"書記官的這個面對的案件"},{"start":6758.89,"end":6760.89,"text":"是以新北地方法院為例"},{"start":6761.56,"end":6763.56,"text":"這個一個平均法官要面對"},{"start":6763.56,"end":6765.56,"text":"1300件案子"},{"start":6765.56,"end":6767.56,"text":"這個實在是壓力非常大"},{"start":6767.56,"end":6769.56,"text":"那我們那時候有就是說我們要"},{"start":6769.56,"end":6771.56,"text":"有兩個方向第一個就是法院主治法修法"},{"start":6771.56,"end":6773.56,"text":"就是我們這一次最重於"},{"start":6773.56,"end":6775.56,"text":"這個司法院的案子"},{"start":6775.56,"end":6777.56,"text":"送到立法院來這是法院主治法才會"},{"start":6777.56,"end":6779.56,"text":"第二個我那時候談了一個重點就是說"},{"start":6779.56,"end":6781.56,"text":"除了法院主治法之外"},{"start":6781.56,"end":6783.56,"text":"另外在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":6783.56,"end":6785.56,"text":"有關於減輕書記官的工作負荷"},{"start":6785.56,"end":6787.56,"text":"是要修訂刑事訴訟法"},{"start":6788.52,"end":6790.52,"text":"要修訂刑事訴訟法"},{"start":6790.52,"end":6792.52,"text":"有關於這個放寬這些筆錄製作方式"},{"start":6792.52,"end":6794.52,"text":"減輕這個書記官的這些工作負荷"},{"start":6794.52,"end":6796.52,"text":"那那時候這個"},{"start":6796.52,"end":6798.52,"text":"秘書長也同意嘛"},{"start":6798.16,"end":6802.16,"text":"那所以在這個我看我們在4月23號的時候"},{"start":6802.16,"end":6804.16,"text":"我們司法院就通過了這個"},{"start":6804.16,"end":6806.16,"text":"這個刑事訴訟法的相關條文的修正"},{"start":6806.16,"end":6808.16,"text":"那現在的進度"},{"start":6808.16,"end":6810.16,"text":"那個行政院會選中"},{"start":6810.16,"end":6812.16,"text":"行政院會選中"},{"start":6814.46,"end":6816.46,"text":"有沒有了解為什麼我們4月送的到現在"},{"start":6816.46,"end":6818.46,"text":"已經8月了"},{"start":6818.46,"end":6820.46,"text":"為什麼還在會選中"},{"start":6820.46,"end":6822.46,"text":"有什麼樣的"},{"start":6822.27,"end":6824.27,"text":"你們也去了解有什麼樣的法律爭議"},{"start":6824.27,"end":6826.27,"text":"我們是積極的跟他們協商"},{"start":6826.27,"end":6828.27,"text":"那原因"},{"start":6829.29,"end":6831.29,"text":"我們已經開會開過兩次"},{"start":6831.29,"end":6833.29,"text":"那原因在哪裡"},{"start":6833.29,"end":6835.29,"text":"他們還是沒有協商完畢"},{"start":6835.29,"end":6837.29,"text":"沒有什麼"},{"start":6837.29,"end":6839.29,"text":"就是還沒有結束啊"},{"start":6838.95,"end":6840.95,"text":"對啊大家有開會嗎"},{"start":6840.95,"end":6842.95,"text":"有開會開會過程"},{"start":6842.95,"end":6844.95,"text":"有什麼比較重大的"},{"start":6844.95,"end":6846.95,"text":"其實爭執點"},{"start":6846.95,"end":6848.95,"text":"爭執點嗎為什麼會這麼久"},{"start":6849.53,"end":6851.53,"text":"就是我們這次的刑事訴訟的修法"},{"start":6851.53,"end":6853.53,"text":"最重要的是要"},{"start":6853.53,"end":6855.53,"text":"減輕法官跟訴計官負擔的"},{"start":6856.43,"end":6858.43,"text":"減化判決"},{"start":6858.43,"end":6860.43,"text":"法務部稍微有點意見"},{"start":6860.43,"end":6862.43,"text":"法務部有意見是不是"},{"start":6862.43,"end":6864.43,"text":"是"},{"start":6864.43,"end":6866.43,"text":"好這個部分我希望說這個盡快打完溝通"},{"start":6866.43,"end":6868.43,"text":"因為我們今天這個法院主治法這邊"},{"start":6868.43,"end":6870.43,"text":"如果說我們開始審查"},{"start":6870.43,"end":6872.43,"text":"那未來很快的時間內"},{"start":6872.43,"end":6874.43,"text":"我們能夠讓他通過"},{"start":6874.43,"end":6876.43,"text":"但是我們刑事訴訟法修正"},{"start":6876.43,"end":6878.43,"text":"你沒有去降低這些法官、訴計官的他的工作負荷"},{"start":6878.43,"end":6880.43,"text":"實際這個工作負荷的話"},{"start":6880.43,"end":6882.43,"text":"這個可能"},{"start":6882.43,"end":6884.43,"text":"對於現在目前解決這個"},{"start":6884.43,"end":6886.43,"text":"但是訴計官的這些缺額問題"},{"start":6886.43,"end":6888.43,"text":"恐怕還是沒有辦法全面的解決"},{"start":6888.43,"end":6890.43,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":6890.43,"end":6892.43,"text":"第二個就是我們"},{"start":6892.43,"end":6894.43,"text":"這個訴計官的這些"},{"start":6894.43,"end":6896.43,"text":"我提另外一個小點"},{"start":6896.43,"end":6898.43,"text":"就是說我們除了這個"},{"start":6898.43,"end":6900.43,"text":"修法之外"},{"start":6900.43,"end":6902.43,"text":"我們另外同步的有關於這個"},{"start":6902.43,"end":6904.43,"text":"訴計官的考試法制"},{"start":6904.43,"end":6906.43,"text":"這個司法人員任用條例"},{"start":6906.43,"end":6908.43,"text":"裡面第18條第49條"},{"start":6908.43,"end":6910.43,"text":"其實他都已經跟現實都已經"},{"start":6910.43,"end":6912.43,"text":"脫節了"},{"start":6912.43,"end":6914.43,"text":"我覺得應該要同步的修改"},{"start":6914.43,"end":6916.43,"text":"像是這個我們第18條說"},{"start":6916.43,"end":6918.43,"text":"委任訴計官應具左列資格任用"},{"start":6918.43,"end":6920.43,"text":"這個他裡面的第一項"},{"start":6920.43,"end":6924.43,"text":"經這個普通考試法院訴計官考試及格者"},{"start":6924.43,"end":6926.43,"text":"現在已經沒有這個所謂普通考試"},{"start":6927.49,"end":6929.49,"text":"這個法院書記官考試"},{"start":6929.49,"end":6931.49,"text":"現在都已經是司法特考"},{"start":6931.49,"end":6933.49,"text":"四等禁用了"},{"start":6932.91,"end":6934.91,"text":"所以這部分我們這個司法人員任用條例"},{"start":6934.91,"end":6936.91,"text":"18條還擺在那裡都沒有去修改"},{"start":6936.91,"end":6938.91,"text":"這個部分第一個我希望"},{"start":6938.91,"end":6940.91,"text":"我覺得應該要同步修正"},{"start":6942.44,"end":6944.44,"text":"另外第19條這個"},{"start":6944.44,"end":6946.44,"text":"書記官的任用資格"},{"start":6946.44,"end":6948.44,"text":"有關這個鑑任職法院"},{"start":6948.44,"end":6950.44,"text":"書記官升任考試現在這個都已經"},{"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有"},{"start":7491.75,"end":7493.75,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":7493.75,"end":7495.75,"text":"你譬如說"},{"start":7495.75,"end":7497.75,"text":"這次改革的重點"},{"start":7497.75,"end":7499.75,"text":"其實我們在司法委員會裡面"},{"start":7499.75,"end":7501.75,"text":"大家其實都蠻關心"},{"start":7501.75,"end":7503.75,"text":"你看你書記官的一個"},{"start":7503.75,"end":7505.75,"text":"職務的一個列等裡面"},{"start":7505.75,"end":7507.75,"text":"或者說是改善他們的一個"},{"start":7507.75,"end":7509.75,"text":"升遷的一個制度"},{"start":7509.75,"end":7511.75,"text":"關心了很久了"},{"start":7511.75,"end":7513.75,"text":"我相信司法院也非常的一個關心"},{"start":7513.75,"end":7515.75,"text":"那如果說在質詢的時候"},{"start":7515.75,"end":7517.75,"text":"在法警的部分"},{"start":7517.75,"end":7519.75,"text":"確實你如果法律沒有一個明文"},{"start":7519.75,"end":7521.75,"text":"給他去授權的話"},{"start":7521.75,"end":7523.75,"text":"那會很麻煩"},{"start":7523.75,"end":7525.75,"text":"所以你要提升法警的"},{"start":7525.75,"end":7527.75,"text":"整個職等"},{"start":7527.75,"end":7529.75,"text":"增設法警的小隊長"},{"start":7529.75,"end":7531.75,"text":"明確法律的一個授權"},{"start":7531.75,"end":7533.75,"text":"你說你法警到底你的職權你對嗎"},{"start":7533.75,"end":7535.75,"text":"把它補足法律上的一個依據"},{"start":7535.75,"end":7537.75,"text":"這個是對的"},{"start":7537.75,"end":7539.75,"text":"那如何去強化整個"},{"start":7539.75,"end":7541.75,"text":"安全的一個檢查的制度"},{"start":7541.01,"end":7543.01,"text":"這個在整個"},{"start":7542.72,"end":7544.72,"text":"我看這樣把它聽下來"},{"start":7544.72,"end":7546.72,"text":"我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":7546.72,"end":7548.72,"text":"對這塊其實大家都要跟你支持"},{"start":7548.72,"end":7550.72,"text":"歐委員在砍預算是砍得很狠的"},{"start":7550.72,"end":7552.72,"text":"可是對你們司法院算是很好的"},{"start":7552.72,"end":7554.72,"text":"你們也真的要補給他"},{"start":7555.2,"end":7557.2,"text":"我一直認為法院"},{"start":7557.2,"end":7559.2,"text":"你像比如說我們在討論"},{"start":7559.2,"end":7561.2,"text":"這個書記官的問題"},{"start":7561.2,"end":7563.2,"text":"在討論法警的問題"},{"start":7563.2,"end":7565.2,"text":"其實都不是"},{"start":7565.2,"end":7567.2,"text":"只有在談他們的待遇"},{"start":7567.2,"end":7569.2,"text":"就是要談說你這些補足"},{"start":7569.2,"end":7571.2,"text":"這些人力以後"},{"start":7571.2,"end":7573.2,"text":"不要被人騙不要被人造不來"},{"start":7573.2,"end":7575.2,"text":"其實最終的一個目的"},{"start":7575.2,"end":7577.2,"text":"就是這個法院都是人民在用"},{"start":7577.2,"end":7579.2,"text":"這個制度"},{"start":7579.2,"end":7581.2,"text":"是要給老百姓用"},{"start":7581.2,"end":7583.2,"text":"讓老百姓接近這個法院的時候"},{"start":7583.2,"end":7585.2,"text":"大家覺得說這個司法來講"},{"start":7585.2,"end":7587.2,"text":"是很溫暖的"},{"start":7587.2,"end":7589.2,"text":"那個是可以接近性的"},{"start":7589.2,"end":7591.2,"text":"重點是在這個地方"},{"start":7591.2,"end":7593.2,"text":"所以這個部分我聽到你們"},{"start":7593.2,"end":7595.2,"text":"會選過後就上去"},{"start":7595.2,"end":7597.2,"text":"你們的版本還沒有"},{"start":7597.2,"end":7599.2,"text":"時間上其實有時候在修法的過程裡面"},{"start":7599.2,"end":7601.2,"text":"你們都很清楚"},{"start":7601.2,"end":7603.2,"text":"我不知道你們中間出現什麼樣的一個環節"},{"start":7603.2,"end":7605.2,"text":"有時候速度立法院既然要支持的話"},{"start":7605.2,"end":7607.2,"text":"你們都要"},{"start":7607.2,"end":7609.2,"text":"再好好的再加一把勁"},{"start":7609.2,"end":7611.2,"text":"另外我想要來請教"},{"start":7611.2,"end":7613.2,"text":"就是我們那個"},{"start":7613.2,"end":7615.2,"text":"我看應該是少年"},{"start":7615.26,"end":7617.26,"text":"再見"},{"start":7616.24,"end":7618.24,"text":"來聽到沒有"},{"start":7618.24,"end":7620.24,"text":"我看對於"},{"start":7620.24,"end":7622.24,"text":"這次法警除了傳統的戒護以外"},{"start":7622.24,"end":7624.24,"text":"的訓練以外"},{"start":7624.24,"end":7626.24,"text":"對於整個精神疾病的辨識"},{"start":7626.24,"end":7628.24,"text":"跟危機處理非暴力"},{"start":7628.24,"end":7630.24,"text":"這個部分還有跟"},{"start":7630.24,"end":7632.24,"text":"非暴力介入跟保護性約束的內容"},{"start":7632.24,"end":7634.24,"text":"要去建立一個完整的一個"},{"start":7634.24,"end":7636.24,"text":"訓練的一個內容"},{"start":7636.24,"end":7638.24,"text":"那我想這個部分其實"},{"start":7638.24,"end":7640.24,"text":"都肯定了因為你精神"},{"start":7640.24,"end":7642.24,"text":"衛生法庭上路以後"},{"start":7642.24,"end":7644.24,"text":"但是我們也要問"},{"start":7644.24,"end":7646.24,"text":"法警準備好了沒有"},{"start":7646.24,"end":7648.24,"text":"法警到底"},{"start":7648.24,"end":7650.24,"text":"我看桃園地院精神法庭的那個"},{"start":7650.24,"end":7652.24,"text":"上次去考察完"},{"start":7652.24,"end":7654.24,"text":"那一句話確實聽了是"},{"start":7654.24,"end":7656.24,"text":"滿感動"},{"start":7656.24,"end":7658.24,"text":"就是說那些人是董事人"},{"start":7658.24,"end":7660.24,"text":"離開的是被理解的人"},{"start":7660.24,"end":7662.24,"text":"那個確實就是說"},{"start":7662.24,"end":7664.24,"text":"我必須要去提醒的"},{"start":7664.24,"end":7666.24,"text":"你整個法庭的設計"},{"start":7666.24,"end":7668.24,"text":"你把它去法庭化了"},{"start":7668.24,"end":7670.24,"text":"這個是可以肯定的"},{"start":7670.24,"end":7672.24,"text":"但是你危機處理的部分"},{"start":7672.24,"end":7674.24,"text":"我們一般在看那個精神衛生的"},{"start":7674.24,"end":7676.24,"text":"一個事件裡面常常會看"},{"start":7676.24,"end":7678.24,"text":"它發生的東西"},{"start":7678.24,"end":7680.24,"text":"跟人比較不同嘛"},{"start":7680.24,"end":7682.24,"text":"精神上情緒上"},{"start":7682.24,"end":7684.24,"text":"這個可能失控"},{"start":7684.24,"end":7686.24,"text":"可能會去致傷"},{"start":7686.24,"end":7688.24,"text":"可能會去傷害別人"},{"start":7688.24,"end":7690.24,"text":"或者說突發的這個攻擊"},{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center"},{"start":8097.22,"end":8100.22,"text":"其實一般民眾會想詢問"},{"start":8100.22,"end":8103.22,"text":"他對於整個司法機關"},{"start":8103.22,"end":8105.22,"text":"法院能夠提供他怎麼樣的一個"},{"start":8105.22,"end":8107.22,"text":"好的一個答案"},{"start":8107.22,"end":8109.22,"text":"差不多你給他匯整開之後"},{"start":8109.22,"end":8111.22,"text":"你說現在400折嘛"},{"start":8111.22,"end":8113.22,"text":"不止啊什麼400折"},{"start":8113.22,"end":8115.22,"text":"上將近兩三千折"},{"start":8115.22,"end":8117.22,"text":"沒有啦我是說通用都用得到"},{"start":8117.22,"end":8119.22,"text":"核心啊核心問題"},{"start":8119.22,"end":8121.22,"text":"沒有我們光通用的就"},{"start":8121.22,"end":8124.22,"text":"我們司儀你已經一千折以上"},{"start":8124.22,"end":8125.22,"text":"好一千折"},{"start":8125.22,"end":8126.22,"text":"這樣又如何"},{"start":8126.22,"end":8127.22,"text":"然後再把它集中"},{"start":8127.22,"end":8129.22,"text":"要再集中再集中"},{"start":8129.22,"end":8131.22,"text":"一千折你不要說一千折啦"},{"start":8131.22,"end":8132.22,"text":"精華五百折左右"},{"start":8132.22,"end":8134.22,"text":"精華"},{"start":8134.22,"end":8135.22,"text":"也不用"},{"start":8135.22,"end":8137.22,"text":"有AI你要用後"},{"start":8137.22,"end":8138.22,"text":"不要說一千折啦"},{"start":8138.22,"end":8140.22,"text":"你要五千折的話"},{"start":8140.22,"end":8141.22,"text":"你要讓它調列"},{"start":8141.22,"end":8143.22,"text":"把它讓它核心弄出來以後"},{"start":8143.22,"end":8145.22,"text":"還是要善用啦"},{"start":8145.22,"end":8147.22,"text":"對我們在call center裡面"},{"start":8147.22,"end":8149.22,"text":"就是要善用AI"},{"start":8149.22,"end":8152.22,"text":"你完全靠人力是不可能的"},{"start":8152.22,"end":8153.22,"text":"是啦"},{"start":8153.22,"end":8155.22,"text":"這個人力是整個要配套進去的"},{"start":8155.22,"end":8157.22,"text":"所以但是科技尤其這一種"},{"start":8157.22,"end":8159.22,"text":"比較這樣的一個建置"},{"start":8159.22,"end":8161.22,"text":"其實就是要讓"},{"start":8161.22,"end":8163.22,"text":"第一線的人"},{"start":8163.22,"end":8165.22,"text":"第一線的人打贏"},{"start":8165.22,"end":8166.22,"text":"要去打贏"},{"start":8166.22,"end":8168.22,"text":"那以上比如說那個客服"},{"start":8168.22,"end":8170.22,"text":"你有時候司機關貪圖要貪死"},{"start":8170.22,"end":8172.22,"text":"還有那些人要去問這些有的沒的"},{"start":8172.22,"end":8174.22,"text":"但他要去詢問"},{"start":8174.22,"end":8175.22,"text":"民眾或者當事人"},{"start":8175.22,"end":8177.22,"text":"去詢問你又不能說當事人不能關心"},{"start":8177.22,"end":8179.22,"text":"那你還是要去做一個提供"},{"start":8179.22,"end":8181.22,"text":"那該交給科技"},{"start":8181.22,"end":8183.22,"text":"就去交給科技"},{"start":8183.22,"end":8186.22,"text":"這行政的工作可以盡量去做一個簡化的"},{"start":8186.22,"end":8188.22,"text":"這部分我看這不是"},{"start":8188.22,"end":8190.22,"text":"所以我們今天要問的就是說"},{"start":8190.22,"end":8192.220000000001,"text":"不是只有法警跟司機關的代務"},{"start":8192.220000000001,"end":8194.220000000001,"text":"其實連這個司法體系"},{"start":8197.32,"end":8199.32,"text":"真的是也要跟上時代"},{"start":8199.32,"end":8201.32,"text":"要跟上時代就是開機"},{"start":8201.32,"end":8204.32,"text":"要開機就是要你們自己的設計出來"},{"start":8204.32,"end":8206.32,"text":"你們自己有一個制度送進來"},{"start":8206.32,"end":8208.32,"text":"立法委員沒那麼厲害"},{"start":8208.32,"end":8209.32,"text":"但是你的制度設計"},{"start":8209.32,"end":8210.32,"text":"你就覺得不錯"},{"start":8210.32,"end":8212.32,"text":"大家跟你們一起支持"},{"start":8212.32,"end":8214.32,"text":"不能跟我們說你沒辦法"},{"start":8214.32,"end":8216.32,"text":"我們等著要跟你們支持好不好"},{"start":8216.32,"end":8217.32,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8217.32,"end":8218.32,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8219.66,"end":8221.66,"text":"好謝謝莊昭偉"},{"start":8221.66,"end":8222.66,"text":"我稍微聲明一下"},{"start":8222.66,"end":8223.66,"text":"我雖然砍預算"},{"start":8223.66,"end":8225.66,"text":"可是我基本上對司法院預算是支持的"},{"start":8225.66,"end":8227.66,"text":"我只是刪的是憲法法庭"},{"start":8227.66,"end":8229.66,"text":"因為他現在沒有組成"},{"start":8229.66,"end":8231.66,"text":"大法官都沒有到期"},{"start":8231.66,"end":8233.66,"text":"所以我是這裡是"},{"start":8233.66,"end":8235.66,"text":"是是非分明"},{"start":8235.66,"end":8237.66,"text":"嘿嘿嘿"},{"start":8237.66,"end":8239.66,"text":"好謝謝莊昭偉"},{"start":8239.66,"end":8241.66,"text":"那接下來我們就有請"},{"start":8243,"end":8245,"text":"對不起接下來是"},{"start":8245,"end":8247,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":8247,"end":8249,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":8249,"end":8251,"text":"鄭振淺委員"},{"start":8251,"end":8253,"text":"鄭振淺委員不在"},{"start":8253,"end":8255,"text":"蘇青泉委員"},{"start":8255,"end":8257,"text":"蘇青泉委員"},{"start":8257,"end":8258,"text":"蘇青泉委員不在"},{"start":8258,"end":8260,"text":"那我先做一個程序上面的聲明"},{"start":8260,"end":8262,"text":"待會林淑芬委員"},{"start":8262.84,"end":8264.84,"text":"直播完畢之後我們就先休息五分鐘"},{"start":8264.84,"end":8268.84,"text":"如果說是陳萬霆委員有到場的話"},{"start":8268.84,"end":8269.84,"text":"那我們就休息五分鐘"},{"start":8269.84,"end":8270.84,"text":"如果說他沒有的話"},{"start":8270.84,"end":8272.84,"text":"或許我們就等法院委員就一起"},{"start":8274.23,"end":8276.23,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":8278.05,"end":8280.05,"text":"沒關係就是說如果說是陳萬霆委員"},{"start":8280.05,"end":8281.05,"text":"然後我們就休息"},{"start":8281.05,"end":8282.05,"text":"如果說沒有的話"},{"start":8282.05,"end":8285.05,"text":"那我們就請范雲委員"},{"start":8285.05,"end":8286.05,"text":"范雲委員質詢完之後"},{"start":8286.05,"end":8288.05,"text":"我們就再一起休息"},{"start":8288.05,"end":8290.05,"text":"好那接下來就有請"},{"start":8290.05,"end":8292.05,"text":"林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":8294.97,"end":8295.97,"text":"好謝謝主席喔"},{"start":8295.97,"end":8298.97,"text":"是不是請我們這個部長"},{"start":8298.97,"end":8299.97,"text":"呃院長"},{"start":8299.97,"end":8300.97,"text":"不秘書長"},{"start":8300.97,"end":8301.97,"text":"請秘書長來請"},{"start":8301.97,"end":8302.97,"text":"我告訴秘書長"},{"start":8309.28,"end":8310.28,"text":"委員早"},{"start":8310.28,"end":8311.28,"text":"秘書長早"},{"start":8311.28,"end":8314.28,"text":"你們提出這個法院組織法"},{"start":8314.28,"end":8317.28,"text":"還有這個行政法院組織法等"},{"start":8317.28,"end":8319.28,"text":"的條文的修正"},{"start":8319.28,"end":8322.28,"text":"對外說是要提高這個書記官法警長"},{"start":8322.28,"end":8324.28,"text":"副法警長的職務列等"},{"start":8324.28,"end":8327.28,"text":"提高他們的待遇保障他們"},{"start":8327.28,"end":8330.28,"text":"那也要明確化法警辦理職務的內容"},{"start":8330.28,"end":8332.28,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":8332.28,"end":8334.28,"text":"在這一包修法當中"},{"start":8334.28,"end":8336.28,"text":"卻夾帶了一條"},{"start":8336.28,"end":8338.28,"text":"現在還沒有復圍"},{"start":8338.28,"end":8341.28,"text":"然後也沒有完成一讀"},{"start":8341.28,"end":8344.28,"text":"然後你今天的報告就已經寫出來了"},{"start":8344.28,"end":8348.28,"text":"就是跟書記官法警都無關的"},{"start":8348.28,"end":8351.28,"text":"藐視法官的命令的修法"},{"start":8352.95,"end":8353.95,"text":"你知道吧"},{"start":8354.35,"end":8356.35,"text":"我們在那個組織法裡面"},{"start":8356.35,"end":8357.35,"text":"就"},{"start":8358.59,"end":8360.59,"text":"修正長按多放在裡面"},{"start":8361.24,"end":8364.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秘書長"},{"start":8395.1,"end":8397.1,"text":"大法官這個憲判"},{"start":8397.1,"end":8398.1,"text":"這個是不是宣告"},{"start":8398.1,"end":8401.1,"text":"刑法第140條"},{"start":8401.1,"end":8404.1,"text":"侮辱公務員罪部分違憲"},{"start":8404.1,"end":8405.1,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":8405.1,"end":8408.1,"text":"這是很大的判決"},{"start":8409.69,"end":8410.69,"text":"好"},{"start":8411.02,"end":8412.02,"text":"那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":8412.02,"end":8415.02,"text":"113年憲判第5號說"},{"start":8415.02,"end":8418.02,"text":"關於侮辱公務員罪的部分"},{"start":8418.02,"end":8424.02,"text":"應限縮於行為人對公務員的當場侮辱行為"},{"start":8424.02,"end":8427.02,"text":"是基於妨礙公務的主觀目的"},{"start":8427.02,"end":8432.02,"text":"而且要足以影響公務員執行公務的情形"},{"start":8432.02,"end":8434.02,"text":"在這個範圍裡面"},{"start":8434.02,"end":8435.02,"text":"始於憲法第11條"},{"start":8435.02,"end":8438.02,"text":"保障言論自由的義止無違"},{"start":8438.02,"end":8440.02,"text":"這是大府憲說了"},{"start":8440.02,"end":8444.02,"text":"這個侮辱公務員罪的構成要件"},{"start":8444.02,"end":8446.02,"text":"必須要很嚴謹"},{"start":8446.02,"end":8448.02,"text":"那我現在跟你講秘書長"},{"start":8448.02,"end":8450.02,"text":"一般公務員被侮辱"},{"start":8450.02,"end":8453.02,"text":"對方是主觀上我就是故意要妨礙你"},{"start":8453.02,"end":8454.02,"text":"而且造成了妨礙"},{"start":8454.02,"end":8456.02,"text":"而且我就是要侮辱你"},{"start":8456.02,"end":8459.02,"text":"而且造成妨礙才會構成犯罪"},{"start":8459.02,"end":8462.02,"text":"那你們現在的提出"},{"start":8462.02,"end":8464.02,"text":"現行的不要說你提出的修正"},{"start":8464.02,"end":8468.02,"text":"法院組織法第95條規定"},{"start":8468.02,"end":8470.02,"text":"要構成"},{"start":8470.05,"end":8473.05,"text":"這個犯罪行責伺候"},{"start":8473.05,"end":8475.05,"text":"他的構成要件是什麼"},{"start":8475.05,"end":8476.05,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":8476.05,"end":8478.05,"text":"第一個那個吳宗憲委員"},{"start":8478.05,"end":8480.05,"text":"他的草案裡面就有這一條"},{"start":8480.05,"end":8481.05,"text":"我管他吳宗憲"},{"start":8481.05,"end":8482.05,"text":"我再問你啦"},{"start":8482.05,"end":8484.05,"text":"你直接回答我"},{"start":8484.05,"end":8486.05,"text":"法院組織法第95條"},{"start":8486.05,"end":8491.05,"text":"現在的構成要件的行為是什麼"},{"start":8491.05,"end":8492.05,"text":"現行"},{"start":8492.05,"end":8493.05,"text":"對"},{"start":8493.05,"end":8496.05,"text":"現行是自妨害法院執行職務"},{"start":8496.05,"end":8498.05,"text":"經制止不聽"},{"start":8498.05,"end":8499.05,"text":"好"},{"start":8499.05,"end":8501.05,"text":"經制止不聽"},{"start":8501.05,"end":8502.05,"text":"妨害職務"},{"start":8502.05,"end":8505.05,"text":"我們都講罪行法定主義啦"},{"start":8505.05,"end":8508.05,"text":"妨害職務的範圍可就廣啦"},{"start":8508.05,"end":8510.05,"text":"但經制止不聽的要件"},{"start":8510.05,"end":8514.05,"text":"我個人相當不同意現行的法律"},{"start":8514.05,"end":8516.05,"text":"這個白話文就講說"},{"start":8516.05,"end":8519.05,"text":"你在這裡吵啦鬧啦"},{"start":8519.05,"end":8522.05,"text":"然後法官兩次叫你不要亂了"},{"start":8522.05,"end":8525.05,"text":"你還在這裡大聲繼續講話"},{"start":8525.05,"end":8526.05,"text":"你就有罪了"},{"start":8526.05,"end":8528.05,"text":"刑責事後"},{"start":8528.05,"end":8529.05,"text":"大聲講話"},{"start":8529.05,"end":8531.05,"text":"好像日本人裡面說"},{"start":8531.05,"end":8533.05,"text":"朱學公請大家保持安靜"},{"start":8533.05,"end":8536.05,"text":"大家繼續不安靜"},{"start":8536.05,"end":8537.05,"text":"好"},{"start":8537.05,"end":8538.05,"text":"抓去關"},{"start":8538.05,"end":8539.05,"text":"馬上就起訴"},{"start":8539.17,"end":8541.17,"text":"如果是這樣子可以嗎"},{"start":8541.17,"end":8544.17,"text":"所以就是因為基於現行法"},{"start":8544.17,"end":8546.17,"text":"這樣的規定對於法官"},{"start":8546.17,"end":8549.17,"text":"他在這個維持法庭秩序"},{"start":8549.17,"end":8551.17,"text":"老實說如委員所說的"},{"start":8551.17,"end":8552.17,"text":"會有很多考慮"},{"start":8552.17,"end":8554.17,"text":"要馬上進行責"},{"start":8554.17,"end":8556.17,"text":"所以我們才希望"},{"start":8556.17,"end":8558.17,"text":"就如同吳宗憲委員所提出來的"},{"start":8558.17,"end":8560.17,"text":"先讓他用行政法"},{"start":8561.43,"end":8562.43,"text":"就是這個目的"},{"start":8562.43,"end":8563.43,"text":"好"},{"start":8563.43,"end":8565.43,"text":"你們現在你的所主張的"},{"start":8565.43,"end":8567.43,"text":"你要現行的法律就是這樣"},{"start":8567.43,"end":8568.43,"text":"直接刑責事後"},{"start":8568.43,"end":8569.43,"text":"你現在說"},{"start":8569.43,"end":8572.43,"text":"好我現在先給你行政法"},{"start":8572.43,"end":8575.43,"text":"你還是不聽第二次再犯的話"},{"start":8575.43,"end":8577.43,"text":"我就給你刑法"},{"start":8577.43,"end":8581.43,"text":"那現在你把禁制止不聽"},{"start":8581.43,"end":8583.43,"text":"直接就拿掉了"},{"start":8583.43,"end":8585.43,"text":"你們號稱說要先行政法"},{"start":8585.43,"end":8586.43,"text":"可是不是"},{"start":8586.43,"end":8588.43,"text":"他現在是禁制止不聽"},{"start":8588.43,"end":8589.43,"text":"直接拿掉"},{"start":8589.43,"end":8592.43,"text":"只要我認定你妨礙這個職務"},{"start":8592.43,"end":8593.43,"text":"你直接就處罰了"},{"start":8593.43,"end":8594.43,"text":"罰錢了"},{"start":8595.26,"end":8596.26,"text":"直接喔"},{"start":8596.26,"end":8598.26,"text":"沒有制止不聽喔"},{"start":8598.26,"end":8599.26,"text":"然後第二次再犯"},{"start":8599.26,"end":8601.26,"text":"直接就刑責事後"},{"start":8601.26,"end":8605.26,"text":"你說這是先行政後刑法"},{"start":8605.26,"end":8606.26,"text":"不是咧"},{"start":8606.26,"end":8609.26,"text":"你連制止不聽這個要件都拿掉了"},{"start":8610.43,"end":8612.43,"text":"所以我舉一個例子好了"},{"start":8612.43,"end":8614.43,"text":"如果法庭開庭的時候"},{"start":8614.43,"end":8615.43,"text":"法官說"},{"start":8615.43,"end":8618.43,"text":"你們雙方不要在那裡爭執了"},{"start":8618.43,"end":8621.43,"text":"等到辯論的時候再說好了"},{"start":8621.43,"end":8623.43,"text":"結果當事人大家很容易"},{"start":8623.43,"end":8625.43,"text":"雙方繼續爭執"},{"start":8625.43,"end":8627.43,"text":"這樣子是不是就構成了"},{"start":8627.43,"end":8629.43,"text":"維持法庭秩序之命令"},{"start":8629.43,"end":8631.43,"text":"制妨礙法院執行職務"},{"start":8631.43,"end":8634.43,"text":"也不需要禁制止不聽了"},{"start":8634.43,"end":8635.43,"text":"直接就罰錢了"},{"start":8635.43,"end":8636.43,"text":"第二次再不聽"},{"start":8636.43,"end":8639.43,"text":"然後就直接抓去關了"},{"start":8639.43,"end":8641.43,"text":"所以在法庭裡面是不是只能夠"},{"start":8641.43,"end":8642.43,"text":"唯唯諾諾"},{"start":8642.43,"end":8644.43,"text":"生怕多講幾句話"},{"start":8644.43,"end":8647.43,"text":"就被認為是妨礙執行職務了呢"},{"start":8647.43,"end":8648.43,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":8648.43,"end":8651.43,"text":"當一位法官他會要講說"},{"start":8651.43,"end":8652.43,"text":"你要維持法庭秩序"},{"start":8652.43,"end":8654.43,"text":"如同委員所說的"},{"start":8654.43,"end":8656.43,"text":"一定雙方爭執很嚴重"},{"start":8656.43,"end":8658.43,"text":"法官為了維持法庭秩序"},{"start":8658.43,"end":8659.43,"text":"一定會跟他說"},{"start":8659.43,"end":8661.43,"text":"好大家照順序說"},{"start":8661.43,"end":8663.43,"text":"其實他的命令就是這樣子"},{"start":8665.06,"end":8667.06,"text":"你講得太簡單了"},{"start":8671.84,"end":8673.84,"text":"你講得好像是"},{"start":8673.84,"end":8676.84,"text":"必須要好像很喧鬧什麼的"},{"start":8676.84,"end":8678.84,"text":"我舉三個例子給你聽"},{"start":8678.84,"end":8680.84,"text":"我講三個實例給你聽"},{"start":8680.84,"end":8681.84,"text":"你來聽聽看"},{"start":8683.37,"end":8684.37,"text":"抱歉老闆主席"},{"start":8684.37,"end":8685.37,"text":"那個等我一下下"},{"start":8693.93,"end":8694.93,"text":"來"},{"start":8695.36,"end":8696.36,"text":"這個"},{"start":8698.54,"end":8702.54,"text":"被告在檢察官對於這個"},{"start":8702.54,"end":8704.54,"text":"證人進行反結問時"},{"start":8704.54,"end":8706.54,"text":"抱歉我這樣講好了"},{"start":8706.54,"end":8707.54,"text":"這樣字太小了這樣"},{"start":8711.92,"end":8714.92,"text":"我們去搜尋過很多的這個判例"},{"start":8714.92,"end":8716.92,"text":"曾經有一個就是被告"},{"start":8716.92,"end":8718.92,"text":"打斷證人發言"},{"start":8718.92,"end":8721.92,"text":"然後就被法院用這一條"},{"start":8721.92,"end":8723.92,"text":"判拘役二十天"},{"start":8725.05,"end":8727.05,"text":"如果這個放在立法院"},{"start":8727.05,"end":8729.05,"text":"官員被尋的時候"},{"start":8729.05,"end":8730.05,"text":"立委在講話"},{"start":8730.05,"end":8732.05,"text":"官員打斷立委的提問"},{"start":8732.05,"end":8733.05,"text":"官員就要被判刑"},{"start":8733.05,"end":8734.05,"text":"你覺得如何"},{"start":8734.9,"end":8737.9,"text":"就是說證人在發言"},{"start":8737.9,"end":8739.9,"text":"然後他被告就是說"},{"start":8739.9,"end":8740.9,"text":"你這樣講講的錯誤啦"},{"start":8740.9,"end":8742.9,"text":"因為我不是那樣子"},{"start":8742.9,"end":8745.9,"text":"這樣就被起訴了判二十天"},{"start":8745.9,"end":8746.9,"text":"然後過去來發生過"},{"start":8746.9,"end":8749.9,"text":"被告在法庭上大聲發言幾次"},{"start":8749.9,"end":8751.9,"text":"然後法院就說"},{"start":8751.9,"end":8753.9,"text":"你這樣子起訴"},{"start":8755.34,"end":8757.34,"text":"放在立法院的話就是說"},{"start":8757.34,"end":8759.34,"text":"官員大聲的回答立委的提問"},{"start":8759.34,"end":8760.34,"text":"就要被判刑"},{"start":8760.34,"end":8762.34,"text":"他是判拘役三十天"},{"start":8762.34,"end":8764.34,"text":"這個都有判例的"},{"start":8764.34,"end":8766.34,"text":"那你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":8766.34,"end":8768.34,"text":"一個是地方法院96年"},{"start":8768.34,"end":8770.34,"text":"檢上至第396號"},{"start":8770.34,"end":8772.34,"text":"一個是96年"},{"start":8772.34,"end":8774.34,"text":"役至第2310號"},{"start":8774.34,"end":8775.34,"text":"過去還曾經發生這樣"},{"start":8775.34,"end":8777.34,"text":"在刑事庭開庭的時候"},{"start":8777.34,"end":8780.34,"text":"跟公訴檢察官相悶"},{"start":8780.34,"end":8783.34,"text":"一個檢察官你陳述的內容不實"},{"start":8783.34,"end":8784.34,"text":"你再這樣不實的話"},{"start":8784.34,"end":8786.34,"text":"我要告你告你"},{"start":8787.62,"end":8789.62,"text":"然後你講的不對我要告你"},{"start":8789.62,"end":8790.62,"text":"然後就這樣講了"},{"start":8790.62,"end":8792.62,"text":"然後就被起訴了"},{"start":8792.62,"end":8793.62,"text":"然後就被起訴了"},{"start":8793.62,"end":8796.62,"text":"然後呢最後判決無罪"},{"start":8797.96,"end":8798.96,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":8798.96,"end":8800.96,"text":"我們對委員現在講的實例"},{"start":8800.96,"end":8801.96,"text":"一下子我也沒辦法"},{"start":8801.96,"end":8803.96,"text":"這個很巨人"},{"start":8803.96,"end":8804.96,"text":"我知道啦"},{"start":8804.96,"end":8805.96,"text":"可是我覺得"},{"start":8805.96,"end":8808.96,"text":"我相信在整個法官"},{"start":8808.96,"end":8809.96,"text":"他要起訴這時候"},{"start":8809.96,"end":8811.96,"text":"絕對在現場的時候"},{"start":8811.96,"end":8812.96,"text":"一定跟他說"},{"start":8812.96,"end":8813.96,"text":"你不要再說了"},{"start":8813.96,"end":8814.96,"text":"太吵了"},{"start":8814.96,"end":8816.96,"text":"有限刑的法律叫"},{"start":8816.96,"end":8817.96,"text":"禁制止不聽啊"},{"start":8817.96,"end":8820.96,"text":"但未來是連禁制止不聽都不需要啊"},{"start":8820.96,"end":8821.96,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":8821.96,"end":8823.96,"text":"其實禁制止不聽"},{"start":8823.96,"end":8826.96,"text":"一定就是在他在發"},{"start":8826.96,"end":8829.96,"text":"這個這個違庭法庭秩序"},{"start":8829.96,"end":8831.96,"text":"法官你講你不要說了"},{"start":8831.96,"end":8832.96,"text":"你不要說了"},{"start":8832.96,"end":8833.96,"text":"沒有影了啦"},{"start":8833.96,"end":8835.96,"text":"也沒一定"},{"start":8835.96,"end":8836.96,"text":"你不要說你不要說"},{"start":8836.96,"end":8838.96,"text":"就要抓去公安嗎"},{"start":8838.96,"end":8840.96,"text":"你不要說了你不要說了"},{"start":8840.96,"end":8842.96,"text":"結果繼續說就要抓去公安嗎"},{"start":8842.96,"end":8843.96,"text":"拜託報告委員"},{"start":8843.96,"end":8844.96,"text":"我老實說"},{"start":8844.96,"end":8846.96,"text":"只要說你不要再說了"},{"start":8846.96,"end":8847.96,"text":"你不要再說了"},{"start":8847.96,"end":8852.96,"text":"你的法院組織法第88條89條91條"},{"start":8852.96,"end":8854.96,"text":"你們還有其他手段案方法"},{"start":8854.96,"end":8855.96,"text":"可以掛出去的"},{"start":8855.96,"end":8856.96,"text":"可以掛出去的"},{"start":8856.96,"end":8857.96,"text":"是不是"},{"start":8857.96,"end":8858.96,"text":"因為他如果"},{"start":8858.96,"end":8860.96,"text":"可以掛出去的"},{"start":8860.96,"end":8861.96,"text":"趕出去以後"},{"start":8861.96,"end":8863.96,"text":"你不是沒有手段"},{"start":8863.96,"end":8865.96,"text":"刑責作為最後手段"},{"start":8865.96,"end":8867.96,"text":"這個是最重要的"},{"start":8867.96,"end":8868.96,"text":"只要你不要再說了"},{"start":8868.96,"end":8869.96,"text":"就抓去公安"},{"start":8869.96,"end":8871.96,"text":"就判刑"},{"start":8871.96,"end":8872.96,"text":"這樣對嗎"},{"start":8872.96,"end":8873.96,"text":"我相信個案"},{"start":8873.96,"end":8874.96,"text":"你相信"},{"start":8874.96,"end":8875.96,"text":"那我就跟你講"},{"start":8875.96,"end":8876.96,"text":"來來"},{"start":8876.96,"end":8877.96,"text":"我把插回去"},{"start":8877.96,"end":8879.96,"text":"我再來跟委員報告"},{"start":8879.96,"end":8880.96,"text":"你們"},{"start":8882.44,"end":8884.44,"text":"認為說"},{"start":8884.44,"end":8887.44,"text":"司法院改成先行政後刑責"},{"start":8887.44,"end":8889.44,"text":"然後把門檻降低"},{"start":8889.44,"end":8891.44,"text":"把處罰的門檻降低"},{"start":8891.44,"end":8892.44,"text":"動輒得救"},{"start":8892.44,"end":8893.44,"text":"罰錢抓去關"},{"start":8896.62,"end":8898.62,"text":"為什麼你們要這樣子呢"},{"start":8899.06,"end":8900.06,"text":"來"},{"start":8900.06,"end":8903.06,"text":"如果當事人構成侮辱公務員罪"},{"start":8903.06,"end":8905.06,"text":"侮辱公務員"},{"start":8905.06,"end":8908.06,"text":"刑法140條可以處理"},{"start":8908.06,"end":8910.06,"text":"你們大法官憲判"},{"start":8910.06,"end":8913.06,"text":"113年憲判自第5號處理"},{"start":8913.06,"end":8916.06,"text":"如果他的行為不是侮辱公務員"},{"start":8916.06,"end":8919.06,"text":"只是講話大聲干擾秩序"},{"start":8919.06,"end":8921.06,"text":"你就要抓去關"},{"start":8921.06,"end":8922.06,"text":"沒合理"},{"start":8922.06,"end":8925.06,"text":"你們憲判大法官的憲判"},{"start":8925.06,"end":8928.06,"text":"限縮了侮辱公務員罪"},{"start":8928.06,"end":8932.06,"text":"要求一般公務人員要忍受侮辱行為"},{"start":8932.71,"end":8935.71,"text":"結果你們的司法院今天修法"},{"start":8935.71,"end":8936.71,"text":"卻毒後法官"},{"start":8936.71,"end":8940.71,"text":"要求大家都不能違反法官在法庭上的命令"},{"start":8940.71,"end":8943.71,"text":"否則不是罰錢就是判刑"},{"start":8943.71,"end":8946.71,"text":"你們這種法官高高在上"},{"start":8946.71,"end":8948.71,"text":"只許你們州官放火"},{"start":8948.71,"end":8950.71,"text":"法官不能夠被侮辱"},{"start":8950.71,"end":8953.71,"text":"但是一般公務員要被侮辱"},{"start":8953.71,"end":8956.71,"text":"限縮了一般公務員的侮辱公務員罪"},{"start":8956.71,"end":8958.71,"text":"結果你降低了"},{"start":8958.71,"end":8961.71,"text":"在法院裡面不聽法官制止的門檻"},{"start":8961.71,"end":8964.71,"text":"所以人家說建官愛三節"},{"start":8964.71,"end":8967.71,"text":"你們法院認為說"},{"start":8967.71,"end":8970.71,"text":"司法院認為說你們來的都愛我三節"},{"start":8970.71,"end":8972.71,"text":"都要聽我的"},{"start":8973.84,"end":8975.84,"text":"你們這種高高在上"},{"start":8975.84,"end":8978.84,"text":"只能夠大家比你們位置還要低"},{"start":8978.84,"end":8981.84,"text":"都要聽你的這種的態度才有問題"},{"start":8981.84,"end":8984.84,"text":"所以95條的修法"},{"start":8984.84,"end":8987.84,"text":"不是降低處罰的門檻"},{"start":8987.84,"end":8989.84,"text":"動輒就罰錢抓去關"},{"start":8989.84,"end":8991.84,"text":"而是應該要刪除"},{"start":8991.84,"end":8993.84,"text":"要刪除"},{"start":8993.84,"end":8994.84,"text":"我問你喔"},{"start":8994.84,"end":8996.84,"text":"這個同樣的情形"},{"start":8996.84,"end":8998.84,"text":"在檢察官偵查庭的時候"},{"start":8998.84,"end":9000.84,"text":"不會發生同樣的困擾嗎"},{"start":9001.48,"end":9001.98,"text":"蛤"},{"start":9003.75,"end":9006.25,"text":"香港的情形如果發生在其他行政機關"},{"start":9006.25,"end":9007.25,"text":"怎麼處理"},{"start":9008.28,"end":9010.28,"text":"你們就動輒把人家抓去關"},{"start":9010.28,"end":9011.28,"text":"罰錢"},{"start":9011.89,"end":9012.89,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":9012.89,"end":9014.89,"text":"偵查庭不會嗎"},{"start":9015.31,"end":9018.31,"text":"干擾辦公干擾公務員"},{"start":9018.31,"end":9022.31,"text":"辦公的罪責不是應該相當一次嗎"},{"start":9022.31,"end":9024.31,"text":"憑什麼司法院就要高人一等"},{"start":9024.31,"end":9026.31,"text":"民眾在檢察庭開庭的時候"},{"start":9026.31,"end":9028.31,"text":"不會發生一樣的情形嗎"},{"start":9029.15,"end":9030.15,"text":"檢察官的問醫"},{"start":9030.15,"end":9031.15,"text":"要就旁邊說"},{"start":9031.15,"end":9033.15,"text":"不是這樣就要插話"},{"start":9033.15,"end":9034.15,"text":"不會嗎"},{"start":9034.15,"end":9035.15,"text":"會啊"},{"start":9035.15,"end":9036.15,"text":"不會大聲嚷嚷嗎"},{"start":9036.15,"end":9037.15,"text":"會啊"},{"start":9038.04,"end":9041.04,"text":"檢察官開偵查庭也可以發生同樣的情形"},{"start":9041.98,"end":9044.98,"text":"但數十年來地檢署從來沒有"},{"start":9044.98,"end":9047.98,"text":"適用過法院組織法第95條"},{"start":9048.41,"end":9051.41,"text":"滋擾妨礙秩序執行職務"},{"start":9051.41,"end":9054.41,"text":"檢察官開偵查庭一樣會碰到"},{"start":9054.41,"end":9057.41,"text":"為什麼他們可以繼續執法"},{"start":9057.41,"end":9060.41,"text":"為什麼可以繼續辦公可以偵查"},{"start":9060.41,"end":9061.41,"text":"你們就不行"},{"start":9062.5,"end":9064.5,"text":"你們就偏偏要高人一等"},{"start":9065.38,"end":9068.38,"text":"為什麼你們需要使用封建社會那種"},{"start":9068.38,"end":9071.38,"text":"高高在上唯我獨尊權力獨大的"},{"start":9071.38,"end":9075.38,"text":"見官矮三截的這一種法條還存在"},{"start":9076.27,"end":9079.27,"text":"社會秩序維護法有沒有東西"},{"start":9079.27,"end":9081.27,"text":"有沒有工具可以使用"},{"start":9081.27,"end":9084.27,"text":"好有沒有社會秩序維護法"},{"start":9084.27,"end":9087.27,"text":"來社會秩序維護法"},{"start":9087.27,"end":9089.27,"text":"在公共場所口角紛爭"},{"start":9089.27,"end":9094.27,"text":"宣法知識不聽勸職者罰六千"},{"start":9094.27,"end":9097.27,"text":"社會秩序維護法第85條"},{"start":9097.27,"end":9099.27,"text":"公務員依法執行職務"},{"start":9099.27,"end":9101.27,"text":"以顯然不相當的言詞或行動相加"},{"start":9101.27,"end":9104.27,"text":"善未達強暴脅迫侮辱的程度"},{"start":9104.27,"end":9107.27,"text":"但是在公務員依法執行職務時"},{"start":9107.27,"end":9110.27,"text":"具重宣法自妨害公務者罰一萬兩千二"},{"start":9110.27,"end":9113.27,"text":"都不需要你在法院組織法裡面"},{"start":9113.27,"end":9115.27,"text":"架構這個法律"},{"start":9115.27,"end":9118.27,"text":"你們的法院組織法888991"},{"start":9118.27,"end":9121.27,"text":"審判長可以命他們"},{"start":9121.27,"end":9124.27,"text":"抓出去退出去不准他進來"},{"start":9124.78,"end":9126.78,"text":"通通都可以"},{"start":9126.78,"end":9127.78,"text":"可以叫法警把他抓出去"},{"start":9128.55,"end":9130.55,"text":"你還需要多嚴苛的法律"},{"start":9130.55,"end":9133.55,"text":"所以在這裡我們再問你第二個"},{"start":9135.87,"end":9136.87,"text":"第二個"},{"start":9137.67,"end":9138.67,"text":"我們"},{"start":9139.31,"end":9141.31,"text":"法院組織法有工具"},{"start":9141.31,"end":9143.31,"text":"然後大家都可以處理"},{"start":9143.31,"end":9148.31,"text":"社會秩序維護法也有可以處理的相當的條款"},{"start":9148.31,"end":9151.31,"text":"你們偵查庭也遇到一樣的狀況"},{"start":9151.31,"end":9155.31,"text":"同樣的公務員都可以解決"},{"start":9155.31,"end":9156.31,"text":"都可以處理"},{"start":9156.31,"end":9158.31,"text":"你們為什麼就不行呢"},{"start":9158.31,"end":9160.31,"text":"所以如果在這種狀況的話"},{"start":9160.31,"end":9163.31,"text":"我們認為不要一天到晚"},{"start":9163.31,"end":9165.31,"text":"修法來修理人民"},{"start":9167.76,"end":9169.76,"text":"好我想最後是不是可以請秘書長"},{"start":9169.76,"end":9170.76,"text":"不是間短回答"},{"start":9170.76,"end":9173.76,"text":"因為今天時間已經超過太多了"},{"start":9173.76,"end":9175.76,"text":"還有最後一個我再講一下"},{"start":9176.91,"end":9178.91,"text":"司法院我們最近"},{"start":9178.91,"end":9180.91,"text":"包括行政院包括立法院"},{"start":9180.91,"end":9182.91,"text":"大家相當高度關注的"},{"start":9182.91,"end":9183.91,"text":"獨價的修法"},{"start":9183.91,"end":9185.91,"text":"刑法185條之三的修法"},{"start":9185.91,"end":9190.91,"text":"這個是行政院跟司法院要兩院會選的法案"},{"start":9190.91,"end":9191.91,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9192.82,"end":9194.82,"text":"我有內部的消息說"},{"start":9194.82,"end":9195.82,"text":"關於獨價的修法"},{"start":9195.82,"end":9199.82,"text":"你們利用行政院需要跟司法院會選"},{"start":9199.82,"end":9202.82,"text":"司法院要求行政院必須另外同意"},{"start":9202.82,"end":9207.82,"text":"司法院提出來的刑事訴訟法的修法草案"},{"start":9207.82,"end":9211.82,"text":"這個草案就是擴大檢視審判範圍"},{"start":9211.82,"end":9214.82,"text":"還說修法要判"},{"start":9214.82,"end":9218.82,"text":"要說判兩年有期徒刑以下的案件"},{"start":9218.82,"end":9221.82,"text":"法官可以不用寫判決書"},{"start":9221.82,"end":9224.82,"text":"直接用宣誓筆錄代替判決"},{"start":9224.82,"end":9225.82,"text":"有沒有這一回事"},{"start":9225.82,"end":9229.82,"text":"我們絕對沒有這樣對行政院說這種話"},{"start":9229.82,"end":9231.82,"text":"這是內部消息傳出來"},{"start":9231.82,"end":9234.82,"text":"但被行政院拒絕"},{"start":9234.82,"end":9237.82,"text":"現在你們未來會不會提出這個修法"},{"start":9237.82,"end":9239.82,"text":"當然要提出這個修法"},{"start":9239.82,"end":9243.82,"text":"你要提出修法說兩年有期徒刑以下的案件"},{"start":9243.82,"end":9245.82,"text":"法官不用寫判決書"},{"start":9245.82,"end":9247.82,"text":"直接用宣誓筆錄代替判決"},{"start":9247.82,"end":9249.82,"text":"未來判決兩年以下"},{"start":9249.82,"end":9251.82,"text":"只要寫毛毛毛你被判刑兩年了"},{"start":9251.82,"end":9254.82,"text":"什麼理由什麼原因不用寫是不是"},{"start":9254.82,"end":9256.82,"text":"裡面有其他要件"},{"start":9256.82,"end":9258.82,"text":"不是如委員說的這麼簡單"},{"start":9258.82,"end":9260.82,"text":"最好是如此"},{"start":9260.82,"end":9264.82,"text":"刑法第185條之三的獨家的修法"},{"start":9264.82,"end":9267.82,"text":"是攸關全國用路人的安全"},{"start":9267.82,"end":9269.82,"text":"避免無辜的民眾的這個喪命"},{"start":9269.82,"end":9271.82,"text":"是要嚴懲獨家"},{"start":9271.82,"end":9275.82,"text":"絕對司法院怎麼可以拿全民的事情去當籌碼"},{"start":9275.82,"end":9278.82,"text":"要求行政院支持你們的修法"},{"start":9278.82,"end":9282.82,"text":"然後去交換讓法官不用寫判決的修法"},{"start":9282.82,"end":9284.82,"text":"我覺得那根本就是來侮辱我們"},{"start":9284.82,"end":9287.82,"text":"司法改革要越改越好"},{"start":9287.82,"end":9292.82,"text":"不是在這裡改到法官不用寫判決"},{"start":9292.82,"end":9295.82,"text":"你要改這樣乾脆不用兩年以下全部都不用"},{"start":9295.82,"end":9299.82,"text":"你們曾經提過要用AI寫判決"},{"start":9299.82,"end":9301.82,"text":"沒有那是古時候一個"},{"start":9301.82,"end":9302.82,"text":"什麼古時候"},{"start":9302.82,"end":9304.82,"text":"Ai不可能寫判決的"},{"start":9304.82,"end":9308.82,"text":"你們曾經要提這個預算案被我砍掉了"},{"start":9308.82,"end":9309.82,"text":"怎麼會沒有"},{"start":9309.82,"end":9314.82,"text":"如果這樣子行政機關做成行政處分"},{"start":9314.82,"end":9315.82,"text":"可不可以不要寫理由"},{"start":9315.82,"end":9317.82,"text":"等到你人民要訴願的時候"},{"start":9317.82,"end":9318.82,"text":"我再寫理由"},{"start":9318.82,"end":9319.82,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":9319.82,"end":9321.82,"text":"你沒有給我判決的理由"},{"start":9321.82,"end":9324.82,"text":"我怎麼會知道要不要上訴"},{"start":9324.82,"end":9325.82,"text":"都一定有其他的要件"},{"start":9325.82,"end":9328.82,"text":"不是如同委員所說的這麼這麼簡單"},{"start":9328.82,"end":9331.82,"text":"什麼要件現在只是你的口頭上的講"},{"start":9331.82,"end":9335.82,"text":"總的言之你們就是希望兩年以下"},{"start":9335.82,"end":9337.82,"text":"法官不用寫判決"},{"start":9337.82,"end":9340.82,"text":"你們還要修法你在這裡承認你要修這個法"},{"start":9340.82,"end":9344.82,"text":"你們在上次AI寫判決"},{"start":9344.82,"end":9347.82,"text":"因為你們根本沒有能力訓練AI"},{"start":9347.82,"end":9352.82,"text":"然後你們只想讓法官享受判決人家生死的權利"},{"start":9352.82,"end":9353.82,"text":"兩年以下"},{"start":9353.82,"end":9355.82,"text":"為什麼兩年以下不用寫判決理由"},{"start":9355.82,"end":9356.82,"text":"有太多"},{"start":9356.82,"end":9360.82,"text":"然後你們為什麼寫判決理由是法官應該付起"},{"start":9360.82,"end":9361.82,"text":"跟人家"},{"start":9363.58,"end":9365.58,"text":"說理的義務"},{"start":9365.58,"end":9368.58,"text":"你擁有判決的判刑的權利"},{"start":9368.58,"end":9372.58,"text":"但你要告訴人家為什麼被判的義務"},{"start":9372.58,"end":9374.58,"text":"這個才是正當的"},{"start":9374.58,"end":9376.58,"text":"先不寫並沒有說都不寫"},{"start":9376.58,"end":9378.58,"text":"先不寫"},{"start":9378.58,"end":9380.58,"text":"兩年以下"},{"start":9380.58,"end":9384.58,"text":"你被冤枉的人要知道自己被冤枉在哪裡"},{"start":9384.58,"end":9388.58,"text":"你們覺得兩年以下很輕的寫"},{"start":9388.58,"end":9390.58,"text":"事實上不是"},{"start":9391.58,"end":9393.58,"text":"對當事人而言都不是"},{"start":9393.58,"end":9395.58,"text":"討論這個議題"},{"start":9395.58,"end":9397.58,"text":"因為讀違法的剛剛那個條文我們已經"},{"start":9397.58,"end":9398.58,"text":"他們很過分"},{"start":9398.58,"end":9402.58,"text":"他拿這個去請行政院要跟他們說你要起死"},{"start":9402.58,"end":9404.58,"text":"被行政院拒絕"},{"start":9404.58,"end":9407.58,"text":"被行政院拒絕"},{"start":9407.58,"end":9410.58,"text":"現在行政院他很多法案都不送了"},{"start":9410.58,"end":9413.58,"text":"現在司法院說他要"},{"start":9413.58,"end":9417.58,"text":"他要送兩年判刑都不用寫判決理由"},{"start":9417.58,"end":9419.58,"text":"你們去看全國的人民"},{"start":9419.58,"end":9423.58,"text":"可以接受判決判刑兩年以下"},{"start":9423.58,"end":9425.58,"text":"都不用寫判決理由"},{"start":9425.58,"end":9428.58,"text":"我們之後我們再來討論這個議題"},{"start":9428.58,"end":9430.58,"text":"因為這是今天完全不同的題目"},{"start":9430.58,"end":9434.58,"text":"到時候端出來看就知道了"},{"start":9434.58,"end":9437.58,"text":"端出來看就知道了"},{"start":9437.58,"end":9439.58,"text":"為什麼行政院不支持"},{"start":9439.58,"end":9443.58,"text":"因為太違反社會人民能夠接受的觀感了"},{"start":9443.58,"end":9446.58,"text":"好謝謝林委員"},{"start":9446.58,"end":9448.58,"text":"好謝謝秘書長"},{"start":9448.58,"end":9450.58,"text":"我們就下一次再討論這個議題"},{"start":9450.91,"end":9453.91,"text":"好那接下來我們就有請范雲委員發言"},{"start":9455.52,"end":9457.52,"text":"對不起還有陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9457.52,"end":9458.52,"text":"陳冠廷委員不在"},{"start":9458.52,"end":9459.52,"text":"接下來有請范雲委員"},{"start":9468.31,"end":9473.31,"text":"主席剛剛除分委員講的議題非常的重要"},{"start":9473.31,"end":9477.31,"text":"但是就是說我是不是也可以比照講久一點"},{"start":9478.77,"end":9483.77,"text":"我想這個發言委員是我們本委員會的委員"},{"start":9483.77,"end":9486.77,"text":"所以本委員對委員應該通常時間更長吧"},{"start":9486.77,"end":9487.77,"text":"對是的沒有錯"},{"start":9487.77,"end":9489.77,"text":"所以就十分鐘之後可以再延長"},{"start":9489.77,"end":9494.77,"text":"那我是對林淑芬委員有特別的給她特別的優惠"},{"start":9494.77,"end":9497.77,"text":"就是比照我們本委員會的發言時間"},{"start":9497.77,"end":9501.77,"text":"但還是她今天也發言時間也真的超出太久了"},{"start":9501.77,"end":9502.77,"text":"了解了解好麻煩她"},{"start":9502.77,"end":9503.77,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9503.77,"end":9506.77,"text":"好我想我有請高秘書長"},{"start":9507.9,"end":9508.9,"text":"有請高秘書長"},{"start":9515.07,"end":9519.07,"text":"高秘書長好我想您對那個CRPT國內法劃"},{"start":9519.07,"end":9522.07,"text":"已經滿12年這一塊您了不了解呢"},{"start":9523.35,"end":9524.35,"text":"關心這一部分我"},{"start":9525.55,"end":9527.55,"text":"因為我真的沒有從事少嘉"},{"start":9527.55,"end":9531.55,"text":"我請我們少嘉廳來跟你做詳細的說明"},{"start":9531.55,"end":9534.55,"text":"這個應該不是只是少嘉廳吧"},{"start":9534.55,"end":9537.55,"text":"對還包括我們行政廳都有"},{"start":9537.55,"end":9540.55,"text":"都有所以那個秘書長不是很了解"},{"start":9540.55,"end":9544.55,"text":"好那沒關係那我就稍微解釋一下好不好"},{"start":9544.55,"end":9546.55,"text":"就是CRPT裡面"},{"start":9546.55,"end":9552.55,"text":"就CRPT當然是這在我們馬總統任內就簽署的"},{"start":9552.55,"end":9555.55,"text":"那當時國會就是民進黨是少數"},{"start":9555.55,"end":9557.55,"text":"那當然也全力支持"},{"start":9557.55,"end":9559.55,"text":"所以當時的國會是不分黨派"},{"start":9559.55,"end":9562.55,"text":"就把這個CRPD就國內法劃"},{"start":9562.55,"end":9564.55,"text":"那裡面有提到合理調整"},{"start":9564.55,"end":9566.55,"text":"合理調整是什麼意思"},{"start":9566.55,"end":9568.55,"text":"它是身心障礙者"},{"start":9568.55,"end":9571.55,"text":"非常重要的一個人權的一部分"},{"start":9571.55,"end":9574.55,"text":"它指的是根據具體需要"},{"start":9574.55,"end":9578.55,"text":"與不造成過度或不當負擔之情況下"},{"start":9578.55,"end":9582.55,"text":"進行必要及適當之修改與調整"},{"start":9582.55,"end":9586.55,"text":"以確保身心障礙者在與其他人平等基礎上"},{"start":9586.55,"end":9591.55,"text":"享有或行使所有人權及基本自由"},{"start":9591.55,"end":9595.55,"text":"也就是說它是搭配我們一般的無障礙"},{"start":9595.55,"end":9596.55,"text":"因為無障礙是通案"},{"start":9596.55,"end":9600.55,"text":"那可是有些地方可能還是會有障礙"},{"start":9600.55,"end":9603.55,"text":"那你針對個案可以及時的處理"},{"start":9603.55,"end":9605.55,"text":"所以它是一個非常重要的權利"},{"start":9605.55,"end":9607.55,"text":"譬如好像是職場上"},{"start":9607.55,"end":9610.55,"text":"那你如果有合理調整的話"},{"start":9610.55,"end":9615.55,"text":"其實身心障礙者他可以適應的工作範圍是非常廣的"},{"start":9615.55,"end":9619.55,"text":"那如果高秘書長了解這點的話"},{"start":9619.55,"end":9620.55,"text":"我就要提到"},{"start":9620.55,"end":9622.55,"text":"為什麼我想要問的是您"},{"start":9622.55,"end":9625.55,"text":"而不是只有那個邵家廳"},{"start":9625.55,"end":9630.55,"text":"主要就是現在職場上的合理調整的爭議"},{"start":9630.55,"end":9633.55,"text":"已經成為司法的新興議題了"},{"start":9633.55,"end":9635.55,"text":"那我辦公室找了兩個新聞"},{"start":9635.55,"end":9637.55,"text":"一個是今年的一個是去年的"},{"start":9637.55,"end":9638.55,"text":"一個是台鐵"},{"start":9638.55,"end":9641.55,"text":"台鐵為合理調整之前身障員工"},{"start":9641.55,"end":9643.55,"text":"後來這個員工就去告了"},{"start":9643.55,"end":9646.55,"text":"那法院判僱傭關係存在"},{"start":9646.55,"end":9650.55,"text":"那應該如果沒有理解錯誤的話就是台鐵輸了"},{"start":9652.14,"end":9653.14,"text":"那這邊呢"},{"start":9653.14,"end":9656.14,"text":"是竹科經理罹患漸凍症"},{"start":9656.14,"end":9658.14,"text":"遭解僱提告"},{"start":9658.14,"end":9660.14,"text":"法官說無法說"},{"start":9660.14,"end":9665.14,"text":"法官就是判這個身障者他是敗訴"},{"start":9666.13,"end":9667.13,"text":"那我們知道"},{"start":9667.13,"end":9671.13,"text":"其實以我們大家都認識的俊翰律師"},{"start":9671.13,"end":9674.13,"text":"他之前是民進黨的不分區候選人"},{"start":9674.13,"end":9677.13,"text":"那他其實是可以執行工作的"},{"start":9677.13,"end":9682.13,"text":"只要他的器材跟各方面的協助是足夠的話"},{"start":9682.13,"end":9686.13,"text":"那所以不代表就是所有的這些都無法提供勞務"},{"start":9686.13,"end":9689.13,"text":"可是我們看到在司法上"},{"start":9689.13,"end":9692.13,"text":"其實告到司法的時候"},{"start":9692.13,"end":9694.13,"text":"結果經常是不一樣的"},{"start":9694.13,"end":9697.13,"text":"那當然您可能會說這兩個個案情況不一樣"},{"start":9697.13,"end":9699.13,"text":"我們現在不能這樣比較"},{"start":9699.13,"end":9701.13,"text":"那的是我要提的事情是"},{"start":9701.13,"end":9704.13,"text":"這個真的跟司法有很大的關係了"},{"start":9704.13,"end":9706.13,"text":"因為目前我們看一下"},{"start":9706.13,"end":9710.13,"text":"如果雇主沒有提供障礙勞工合理調整的話"},{"start":9710.13,"end":9713.13,"text":"法律的就計方式就是這樣"},{"start":9713.13,"end":9716.13,"text":"依照就業歧視就業服務法第五條"},{"start":9716.13,"end":9720.13,"text":"那不能夠對身心障礙等身分予以歧視"},{"start":9720.13,"end":9722.13,"text":"所以他可以第一關"},{"start":9722.13,"end":9726.13,"text":"到地方主管機關提出就業歧視申訴"},{"start":9726.13,"end":9728.13,"text":"譬如說到勞工局等等"},{"start":9728.13,"end":9731.13,"text":"那然後地方勞工行政主管機關"},{"start":9731.13,"end":9733.13,"text":"有個就業歧視評議委員會"},{"start":9733.13,"end":9736.13,"text":"他審議後會做成決議"},{"start":9736.13,"end":9738.13,"text":"那有些在這一關就解決了對不對"},{"start":9738.13,"end":9741.13,"text":"可是如果在這一關沒有辦法解決的話"},{"start":9741.13,"end":9744.13,"text":"事實上不符決議的時候"},{"start":9744.13,"end":9747.13,"text":"不管是老闆或者是員工"},{"start":9747.13,"end":9749.13,"text":"都可以再提出訴願"},{"start":9749.13,"end":9751.13,"text":"那再來我想您就非常熟悉了"},{"start":9751.13,"end":9754.13,"text":"行政訴訟這一塊就出現了"},{"start":9754.13,"end":9759.13,"text":"所以司法等於是障礙者工作權的最後一道防線"},{"start":9759.13,"end":9762.13,"text":"秘書長對這個流程應該沒有任何疑義吧"},{"start":9762.13,"end":9765.13,"text":"沒有這個除了行政訴訟也會有民事訴訟"},{"start":9765.13,"end":9769.13,"text":"對所以它會是重要的司法議題這個您認同吧"},{"start":9771.2,"end":9773.2,"text":"好那所以我現在就想問的是"},{"start":9773.2,"end":9780.2,"text":"請問目前雇主為障礙勞工提供合理調整的這個義務的爭議"},{"start":9780.2,"end":9785.2,"text":"您認為司法裁判的實務上是不是已經準備好了"},{"start":9785.2,"end":9787.2,"text":"是不是已經穩定跟成熟了嗎"},{"start":9787.2,"end":9788.2,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9788.2,"end":9790.2,"text":"雖然CRPD我不是很熟"},{"start":9790.2,"end":9793.2,"text":"可是我在辦訴訟案件裡面也很多這種案件"},{"start":9793.2,"end":9797.2,"text":"其實法官最困難的是要認定"},{"start":9798.01,"end":9801.01,"text":"提供合理調整的義務"},{"start":9801.01,"end":9803.01,"text":"這個委員指導的這個"},{"start":9803.01,"end":9805.01,"text":"其實這個一直在發展中"},{"start":9805.01,"end":9808.01,"text":"而不是說這個議題在發展中"},{"start":9808.01,"end":9814.01,"text":"而是說法官的對於所謂合理調整義務的範圍"},{"start":9814.87,"end":9819.87,"text":"這種認定真的會影響到這個裁判的勝訴"},{"start":9819.87,"end":9823.87,"text":"那這個我不敢說已經成熟穩定"},{"start":9823.87,"end":9829.87,"text":"我們是一直在提醒我們勞動法庭還有行政訴訟這個區塊"},{"start":9829.87,"end":9835.87,"text":"法官一定要放下我們這些人跟我們不一樣"},{"start":9835.87,"end":9843.87,"text":"這種想法去增進自己對於所謂提供合理調整義務的"},{"start":9844.59,"end":9846.59,"text":"範圍要放快"},{"start":9846.59,"end":9850.59,"text":"謝謝高秘書長您講得很清楚"},{"start":9850.59,"end":9856.59,"text":"您認為現在的爭議是在於合理調整的內容是什麼"},{"start":9856.59,"end":9858.59,"text":"但是大家都已經知道這個是義務了"},{"start":9858.59,"end":9863.59,"text":"所以現在的爭議是在這個合理調整是義務"},{"start":9863.59,"end":9868.59,"text":"可是怎麼樣的做法可以被當成是他做了這個義務"},{"start":9868.59,"end":9870.59,"text":"是不是這是您的認定"},{"start":9870.59,"end":9873.59,"text":"好那我要告訴高秘書長"},{"start":9873.59,"end":9876.59,"text":"貴司法體系目前並不是這樣"},{"start":9876.59,"end":9879.59,"text":"你看我們這個辦公室做的研究"},{"start":9879.59,"end":9884.59,"text":"2020年你們的高雄高等行政法院的判決"},{"start":9884.59,"end":9886.59,"text":"他不認為合理調整是義務"},{"start":9886.59,"end":9889.59,"text":"他覺得那個是優惠性措施"},{"start":9889.59,"end":9891.59,"text":"他承認有CRPD"},{"start":9891.59,"end":9896.59,"text":"但不認為能夠指導雇主有合理調整義務"},{"start":9896.59,"end":9898.59,"text":"所以他完全不理這個法"},{"start":9898.59,"end":9901.59,"text":"他只用勞動基準法就業服務法"},{"start":9901.59,"end":9905.59,"text":"這個不是專為就是伸帳者制定的法"},{"start":9905.59,"end":9907.59,"text":"那可是很有趣了"},{"start":9907.59,"end":9911.59,"text":"過了一年最高行政法院的判決"},{"start":9911.59,"end":9912.59,"text":"又不一樣了"},{"start":9912.59,"end":9914.59,"text":"就說這個不是什麼優惠"},{"start":9914.59,"end":9915.59,"text":"這不是額外的"},{"start":9915.59,"end":9919.59,"text":"他是實踐平等的積極義務"},{"start":9919.59,"end":9923.59,"text":"而且他強調CRPD已經國內法化了"},{"start":9923.59,"end":9927.59,"text":"各機關都應該要符合公約的保障"},{"start":9927.59,"end":9930.59,"text":"還引用了CRPD第二條第五條"},{"start":9930.59,"end":9933.59,"text":"特別援引CRPD第六號一般性意見"},{"start":9933.59,"end":9935.59,"text":"所以兩次判決不一樣"},{"start":9935.59,"end":9939.59,"text":"請問一下高雄高等行政法院的判決"},{"start":9939.59,"end":9943.59,"text":"為什麼可以跟2021年最高行政法院判決不一樣"},{"start":9943.59,"end":9946.59,"text":"這不是秘書長講的那個狀況"},{"start":9946.59,"end":9948.59,"text":"最高行政法院是2021年"},{"start":9948.67,"end":9952.67,"text":"所以最高行政法院他就指示出要這樣去思考"},{"start":9952.67,"end":9953.67,"text":"那不是"},{"start":9953.67,"end":9955.67,"text":"那我今天我的意思是說"},{"start":9955.67,"end":9959.67,"text":"那我今天如果是到高雄高等行政法院判決"},{"start":9959.67,"end":9960.67,"text":"那我不是就比較倒楣嗎"},{"start":9960.67,"end":9961.67,"text":"我還得要繼續"},{"start":9961.67,"end":9962.67,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9962.67,"end":9963.67,"text":"其實我們事實上的法院"},{"start":9963.67,"end":9965.67,"text":"為什麼不能在那裡就"},{"start":9965.67,"end":9968.67,"text":"就如同您剛所講就認定他是義務了"},{"start":9968.67,"end":9969.67,"text":"對對對"},{"start":9969.67,"end":9972.67,"text":"所以最高行政法院他已經指出了"},{"start":9972.67,"end":9976.67,"text":"這應該是我認為他這應該是一個法律見解了"},{"start":9976.67,"end":9980.67,"text":"這個法律見解在四十層法院都會去重視"},{"start":9980.67,"end":9982.67,"text":"那個三省的法律見解"},{"start":9982.67,"end":9985.67,"text":"2020所以2021就有這樣的"},{"start":9985.67,"end":9987.67,"text":"已經在改變中了"},{"start":9987.67,"end":9988.67,"text":"好"},{"start":9988.67,"end":9992.67,"text":"我們簽署這個CRPD是哪一年您知道嗎"},{"start":9995.3,"end":9996.3,"text":"2014是不是"},{"start":9996.3,"end":9998.3,"text":"對2014年就國內法化"},{"start":9998.3,"end":9999.3,"text":"是啊"},{"start":9999.3,"end":10000.3,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":10000.3,"end":10002.3,"text":"2020年這個已經過了六年了"},{"start":10002.3,"end":10004.3,"text":"那這個真的是有個個案"},{"start":10004.3,"end":10006.3,"text":"原本是一個市帳者"},{"start":10006.3,"end":10010.3,"text":"平常以行走的方式進行開單的工作"},{"start":10010.3,"end":10012.3,"text":"後來他小腿受傷"},{"start":10012.3,"end":10014.3,"text":"他本來是市帳是可以開單"},{"start":10014.3,"end":10015.3,"text":"小腿受傷"},{"start":10015.3,"end":10018.3,"text":"他希望轉調內勤服務"},{"start":10018.3,"end":10021.3,"text":"結果高等行政法院這個高雄的"},{"start":10021.3,"end":10024.3,"text":"認定交通局沒有違反合理調整義務"},{"start":10024.3,"end":10026.3,"text":"沒有構成歧視"},{"start":10026.3,"end":10028.3,"text":"那他後來就很辛苦"},{"start":10028.3,"end":10030.3,"text":"還要上訴到最高行政法院"},{"start":10030.3,"end":10034.3,"text":"結果法院就認定原審沒有仔細檢視"},{"start":10034.3,"end":10037.3,"text":"交通局是否已經盡合理調整的義務"},{"start":10037.3,"end":10040.3,"text":"才把原判決廢棄發回"},{"start":10040.3,"end":10042.3,"text":"那我要講的事情是"},{"start":10042.3,"end":10044.3,"text":"為什麼他要這麼的辛苦"},{"start":10044.3,"end":10046.3,"text":"到如果他在高雄這一端"},{"start":10046.3,"end":10047.3,"text":"高等行政法院判決"},{"start":10047.3,"end":10049.3,"text":"2020年他就放棄了呢"},{"start":10050.88,"end":10051.88,"text":"當然我們希望"},{"start":10051.88,"end":10052.88,"text":"我個人也希望"},{"start":10052.88,"end":10054.88,"text":"高雄高等行政法院"},{"start":10054.88,"end":10056.88,"text":"為什麼沒有採最高行政法院的意見"},{"start":10056.88,"end":10059.88,"text":"最高行政法院他就指證了"},{"start":10059.88,"end":10062.88,"text":"你將來關於這類案件"},{"start":10062.88,"end":10063.88,"text":"你的思考方向"},{"start":10063.88,"end":10065.88,"text":"你的法律見解方向"},{"start":10065.88,"end":10068.88,"text":"我相信已經指出一個非常清楚的道路了"},{"start":10069.82,"end":10071.82,"text":"對 所以您剛所講的那個"},{"start":10071.82,"end":10074.82,"text":"大家都認知到這是義務"},{"start":10074.82,"end":10077.82,"text":"只是對於合理調整的內容"},{"start":10077.82,"end":10079.82,"text":"有不同的見解"},{"start":10079.82,"end":10081.82,"text":"這件事情沒有發生"},{"start":10081.82,"end":10083.82,"text":"就拿我剛講2020"},{"start":10083.82,"end":10086.82,"text":"已經是高雄高等行政法院的判決了"},{"start":10086.82,"end":10088.82,"text":"我跟委員報告說"},{"start":10089.64,"end":10092.64,"text":"不是說判決所有判決"},{"start":10092.64,"end":10094.64,"text":"都如同我的見解一樣"},{"start":10094.64,"end":10096.64,"text":"沒錯 所以我才說"},{"start":10096.64,"end":10098.64,"text":"這不是你的見解"},{"start":10098.64,"end":10102.64,"text":"這是CRPT是有國內法化的法律"},{"start":10102.64,"end":10103.64,"text":"明文規定"},{"start":10103.64,"end":10104.64,"text":"所以跟委員報告"},{"start":10104.64,"end":10106.64,"text":"他無視於有這個法律的存在"},{"start":10106.64,"end":10107.64,"text":"對 沒錯"},{"start":10107.64,"end":10109.64,"text":"他引用的是其他的法令"},{"start":10109.64,"end":10110.64,"text":"我不敢講 他無視了"},{"start":10110.64,"end":10112.64,"text":"他可能沒有注意"},{"start":10112.64,"end":10114.64,"text":"這個因為個案我真的很難解釋"},{"start":10114.64,"end":10115.64,"text":"沒有讀過"},{"start":10115.64,"end":10117.64,"text":"我不敢講"},{"start":10117.64,"end":10118.64,"text":"只是最少"},{"start":10120.53,"end":10122.53,"text":"關於CRPT我們是"},{"start":10122.53,"end":10125.53,"text":"司法院非常重視"},{"start":10125.53,"end":10126.53,"text":"真的非常重視"},{"start":10126.53,"end":10127.53,"text":"秘書長"},{"start":10128.44,"end":10130.44,"text":"您說非常重視"},{"start":10130.44,"end":10132.44,"text":"我有一點點懷疑"},{"start":10132.44,"end":10134.44,"text":"為什麼 因為您自己都不熟悉"},{"start":10134.44,"end":10136.44,"text":"沒有 跟委員"},{"start":10136.44,"end":10138.44,"text":"你剛剛不是說你不熟悉"},{"start":10138.44,"end":10139.44,"text":"要那個少嘉聽的"},{"start":10139.44,"end":10142.44,"text":"我不能夠很自誇說我熟悉"},{"start":10142.44,"end":10144.44,"text":"CRPD其實是落實在"},{"start":10145.99,"end":10146.99,"text":"我們的判決裡面"},{"start":10146.99,"end":10148.99,"text":"尤其我們最近"},{"start":10148.99,"end":10150.99,"text":"委員應該看到新聞"},{"start":10150.99,"end":10153.99,"text":"我們關於這些朋友們"},{"start":10153.99,"end":10155.99,"text":"能夠禁用法院的"},{"start":10155.99,"end":10156.99,"text":"這個司法禁用"},{"start":10156.99,"end":10157.99,"text":"我們一直在強調"},{"start":10157.99,"end":10160.99,"text":"其實我覺得這個重點是"},{"start":10160.99,"end":10161.99,"text":"我要放在心裡"},{"start":10161.99,"end":10163.99,"text":"我要放在我的sense裡面"},{"start":10163.99,"end":10166.99,"text":"我要放在一切我的作為裡面"},{"start":10166.99,"end":10168.99,"text":"我講的是這個部分"},{"start":10168.99,"end":10171.99,"text":"好 那我今天想問的是"},{"start":10171.99,"end":10173.99,"text":"那您作為秘書長"},{"start":10173.99,"end":10176.99,"text":"您覺得我們如何避免再發生"},{"start":10176.99,"end":10178.99,"text":"像高雄高等行政法院這樣判決"},{"start":10178.99,"end":10180.99,"text":"根本無視於CRPD這個"},{"start":10180.99,"end":10181.99,"text":"國內法的存在"},{"start":10181.99,"end":10184.99,"text":"把合理調整不當成是義務"},{"start":10184.99,"end":10187.99,"text":"他覺得這只是個優惠的措施"},{"start":10187.99,"end":10188.99,"text":"所以"},{"start":10188.99,"end":10190.99,"text":"如何可以做到不要再發生"},{"start":10190.99,"end":10192.99,"text":"讓障礙者很辛苦了"},{"start":10192.99,"end":10193.99,"text":"還要再往上"},{"start":10193.99,"end":10196.99,"text":"再到最高行政法院才能夠"},{"start":10196.99,"end":10197.99,"text":"這個除了"},{"start":10197.99,"end":10199.99,"text":"當然法官一定要接受教育訓練"},{"start":10199.99,"end":10200.99,"text":"不是"},{"start":10200.99,"end":10201.99,"text":"法官應該接受教育訓練"},{"start":10201.99,"end":10202.99,"text":"一定要"},{"start":10202.99,"end":10204.99,"text":"那目前的教育訓練中"},{"start":10204.99,"end":10205.99,"text":"有這個CRPD國內法嗎"},{"start":10205.99,"end":10206.99,"text":"有"},{"start":10206.99,"end":10208.99,"text":"請問是幾小時"},{"start":10208.99,"end":10209.99,"text":"這個一下問我"},{"start":10209.99,"end":10210.99,"text":"是一輩子講"},{"start":10210.99,"end":10213.99,"text":"就是一次還是說一年有幾小時"},{"start":10213.99,"end":10215.99,"text":"最少法官我們是"},{"start":10215.99,"end":10219.99,"text":"規定是上課是40小時"},{"start":10219.99,"end":10222.99,"text":"40小時中是多久上一次課法官"},{"start":10222.99,"end":10223.99,"text":"整年呢"},{"start":10223.99,"end":10224.99,"text":"整年你全部要上課"},{"start":10224.99,"end":10227.99,"text":"每個法官整年都要上40小時課"},{"start":10227.99,"end":10231.99,"text":"那裡面CRPD的國內法幾小時"},{"start":10231.99,"end":10232.99,"text":"送給委員"},{"start":10232.99,"end":10234.99,"text":"現在沒有人知道說"},{"start":10234.99,"end":10236.99,"text":"那個CRPD國內法幾小時嗎"},{"start":10236.99,"end":10239.99,"text":"CRPD負責的是我們行政廳"},{"start":10239.99,"end":10241.99,"text":"他們今天剛好沒有人"},{"start":10241.99,"end":10242.99,"text":"剛好沒有人"},{"start":10242.99,"end":10243.99,"text":"可是我這個"},{"start":10243.99,"end":10244.99,"text":"我可以看"},{"start":10244.99,"end":10246.99,"text":"您確定目前有上CRPD國內法"},{"start":10246.99,"end":10247.99,"text":"有"},{"start":10247.99,"end":10248.99,"text":"只是幾小時不了解"},{"start":10248.99,"end":10251.99,"text":"對真的一下問我真的不了解"},{"start":10251.99,"end":10252.99,"text":"好沒關係"},{"start":10252.99,"end":10253.99,"text":"那我想"},{"start":10253.99,"end":10254.99,"text":"因為我不想要"},{"start":10254.99,"end":10256.99,"text":"那個超時太多"},{"start":10258.44,"end":10260.44,"text":"我想要講的事情是"},{"start":10260.44,"end":10262.44,"text":"近年職場合理調整的爭議"},{"start":10262.44,"end":10264.44,"text":"真的有越來越多的判例"},{"start":10264.44,"end":10266.44,"text":"可是我們看不出來說"},{"start":10266.44,"end":10269.44,"text":"為什麼他有時候認定是歧視"},{"start":10269.44,"end":10271.44,"text":"有時候認為不是"},{"start":10271.44,"end":10272.44,"text":"那第一個"},{"start":10272.44,"end":10274.44,"text":"到底是不是個義務這一層"},{"start":10274.44,"end":10277.44,"text":"已經不是一致了"},{"start":10277.44,"end":10280.44,"text":"依照CRPD的法他應該是義務"},{"start":10280.44,"end":10281.44,"text":"那再來這個義務之後"},{"start":10281.44,"end":10284.44,"text":"就像您剛講的認定標準"},{"start":10284.44,"end":10285.44,"text":"也非常的不一"},{"start":10285.44,"end":10288.44,"text":"那既然秘書長願意去努力"},{"start":10288.44,"end":10290.44,"text":"我想講的事情是"},{"start":10290.44,"end":10293.44,"text":"你們是不是可以先就近年累積的"},{"start":10293.44,"end":10296.44,"text":"障礙者職場合理調整的判例"},{"start":10296.44,"end":10299.44,"text":"進行系統性的彙整跟延期"},{"start":10299.44,"end":10304.44,"text":"然後根據CRPD國內法的精神"},{"start":10304.44,"end":10308.44,"text":"把這些案例做成教材"},{"start":10308.44,"end":10310.44,"text":"再給法官做研習好嗎"},{"start":10310.44,"end":10311.44,"text":"如果你講法律"},{"start":10311.44,"end":10313.44,"text":"等一下萬一上課的時候"},{"start":10313.44,"end":10316.44,"text":"大家太累了打瞌睡了怎麼辦"},{"start":10316.44,"end":10319.44,"text":"那至少把你們的案例做延期"},{"start":10319.44,"end":10321.44,"text":"哪些其實那些判決是錯的"},{"start":10321.44,"end":10323.44,"text":"違反CRPD的精神"},{"start":10323.44,"end":10324.44,"text":"這一定可以做到"},{"start":10324.44,"end":10325.44,"text":"哪些是"},{"start":10325.44,"end":10327.44,"text":"然後讓大家了解合理調整"},{"start":10327.44,"end":10329.44,"text":"依照我們的CRPD"},{"start":10329.44,"end":10331.44,"text":"不是優惠性的措施"},{"start":10331.44,"end":10333.44,"text":"他已經是義務了好嗎"},{"start":10333.44,"end":10334.44,"text":"這一定可以做到"},{"start":10334.44,"end":10335.44,"text":"那這樣子你們這個做法"},{"start":10335.44,"end":10337.44,"text":"多久內可以給我一個報告呢"},{"start":10337.44,"end":10340.44,"text":"做完就是你不一定要做完"},{"start":10340.44,"end":10342.44,"text":"就是預計要怎麼做"},{"start":10342.44,"end":10343.44,"text":"多久內可以做完"},{"start":10343.44,"end":10345.44,"text":"可是我們做系統性的彙整"},{"start":10345.44,"end":10346.44,"text":"可不可以給我們一個月"},{"start":10346.73,"end":10347.73,"text":"好一個月"},{"start":10347.73,"end":10349.73,"text":"至少把你的計畫要怎麼做"},{"start":10349.73,"end":10350.73,"text":"讓我知道好嗎"},{"start":10350.73,"end":10352.73,"text":"好那謝謝秘書長"},{"start":10352.73,"end":10354.73,"text":"好我繼續監督"},{"start":10355.63,"end":10357.63,"text":"好謝謝菲律賓委員"},{"start":10358.36,"end":10360.36,"text":"好那麼我們今天所有登記發言的委員"},{"start":10360.36,"end":10362.36,"text":"都已經發言完畢尋答結束"},{"start":10362.36,"end":10364.36,"text":"那委員結束的時候"},{"start":10364.36,"end":10366.36,"text":"所要求提供的相關資料"},{"start":10366.36,"end":10367.36,"text":"或以書面答覆者"},{"start":10367.36,"end":10368.36,"text":"就請相關機關"},{"start":10368.36,"end":10371.36,"text":"儘速送交個別委員以及本會"},{"start":10373.77,"end":10376.77,"text":"那麼委員蔡奇昌、傅崑琪、許宇貞"},{"start":10376.77,"end":10378.77,"text":"等委員所提的書面質詢"},{"start":10378.77,"end":10380.77,"text":"我們就列入記錄、刊登公報"},{"start":10380.77,"end":10383.77,"text":"並起相關機關以書面答覆"},{"start":10383.77,"end":10388.77,"text":"由於明天是召開全院委員會的公聽會"},{"start":10388.77,"end":10391.77,"text":"就是針對經常委員同意權的公聽會"},{"start":10391.77,"end":10393.77,"text":"所以本次會議為週三"},{"start":10393.77,"end":10394.77,"text":"就是一天一次會"},{"start":10394.77,"end":10397.77,"text":"那會議就進行到此為止"},{"start":10397.77,"end":10400.77,"text":"我們的議程討論事項個案"},{"start":10400.77,"end":10401.77,"text":"均作如下的決議"},{"start":10401.77,"end":10404.77,"text":"我們就另定期繼續審查"},{"start":10404.77,"end":10405.77,"text":"好的,我們現在散會"},{"start":10405.77,"end":10406.77,"text":"謝謝大家"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":19.91,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":0.78,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"SwZgvHZ6u703UYU9o3RbvtMP/7zAvAk+1ivNvPatar5A8p69iMlAvlDiUz5HC4o+O+G2veugcDx6UIG8DvBzPnkKpj7DGtq8Cm3bvJIZhD5VIow+w9LcvAiZVz6FmFW+fzQrvqgrVD3de3G9gLk6Pbdqlr1wQU69E3GbPltrOL6Gr669GsEkvosYgD2qf7G9azDmPaIsB759+VW91l5JvnhNn77Cnkw+t+sIvlA94D1aW4C+3QyMPchd973yaBq+RRlEvjUJ7z2AhNe+JtkwPkeOJT67/eq+8+HbvV/Qpr1pu4m+hk8nvsjbLz3Tbva9U0AWvr3Wj7vCiRm705mGvvYkO70aV+M9ilU3verXiz5z/p298L1FPjJrnjzZj0k+9jmoPPRyjL3DMZ49ujAbvpHSlz3g1I4+ePD6vRi5z70KltW9HUYrPiPzbL1+Xrs8HjFlvUpKmr5mqK69t1KAPpPv6b3zPn68YsNRvalZNb1HliA+EJdnvqiVbb6HwzU9U9SYPjaLzL0Ogzu+4mjovcYsm7zm8Fu9neu2vtwSPb71vEU8c1v8PXSXKT4/Ggg+UrOYviW+jD1q9js9Nf7AvW8MLr63oqC9rOGsPTIL5LxUpRS8Cj66vrpDPj4a9B+8O/hvvsJHZ729fVM+V7c/PZvzgr27A1M+5tJWPq4gOT5qQ2y9S6A0vqeQHDyNO7686m+cPQ7YwD0WnMa9BqyEPn4/P772MNQ8+ec+PWN1Mj6AVW6+ig6evWvrLT79uvK9ORgEvpytHj5xCD89Zq8TPlArEz2WeAC93BUavvawBT7IrK29Z5qmvo7tHT5KaBe8Eq31PV1RnD0gel299HsuvkBHFT5ulIu+k4NAvjr3mz6D5ds8Y88IPuZXDz6mwrc9T8uAPq/QLr5act28U+J8vrLSyz3NhXY+S6eCPidBBr3GWrC+1gUDPXAxzj2mljm+IKXfPU5o8T1Ti2E8wFmqPNoPRj4Du4u9SkIfO92Wgb4srMW9sphPvWIqHrp21bM9jxyJPVTYrz5luzC+ZhZaPl9Psb0OEJk87U3BvX1++T2gkyo9TwaSvg4C5bwMvkM+7f7CPLiPC77oLe09RYQ0Paoh/TtlslC9dP2BPhiDwz3N+Vw+kpyCPfZwSr4T/FI+A7j0PNOuj77mDY087FQLPh0sAD5Zzzc+5vUivfr4IT16oUi9SGGyvdtvlD1mVgm+hdhxO7UWB77RMJM+WvfwustBbLyoGGA+0CCQPhpeaL3ogTi+Ery5PSCYajx7qp89Np0JPbmSmz1KhXi+zxC0PQjFaL7EfK69W5aOvTu5Nz4jDOa+qfjCPZ6tVz6K2ok97RwtvdaAAj4OXb898bM7PQ=="},{"total_seconds":1310.65,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_02","embedding":"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