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第四階段"},{"start":2025.33,"end":2028.41,"text":"經管理會審議不參與投資之案件"},{"start":2028.41,"end":2030.17,"text":"應將結果函附申請人"},{"start":2030.17,"end":2034.01,"text":"申請人於審議決議日起一年後"},{"start":2034.01,"end":2036.97,"text":"使得再次提出投資申請"},{"start":2036.97,"end":2039.93,"text":"經管理會審議參與投資之案件"},{"start":2039.93,"end":2042.57,"text":"申請人因於審議決議日起"},{"start":2042.57,"end":2044.41,"text":"六個月內申請"},{"start":2044.41,"end":2045.65,"text":"撥付投資款"},{"start":2046.18,"end":2047.9,"text":"預期視同放棄"},{"start":2047.9,"end":2049.78,"text":"前項投資署第30條"},{"start":2049.78,"end":2051.82,"text":"第一項第5款至投資者"},{"start":2051.82,"end":2054.3,"text":"除申請人提出投資"},{"start":2054.3,"end":2056.1800000000003,"text":"申請及投資計畫書"},{"start":2056.1800000000003,"end":2058.06,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":2058.06,"end":2060.2200000000003,"text":"應並提出評估報告"},{"start":2060.2200000000003,"end":2063.46,"text":"依前項第2款至第4款程序辦理之"},{"start":2065.89,"end":2068.97,"text":"國家發展基金辦理現有投資"},{"start":2068.97,"end":2071.17,"text":"事業現金增資時"},{"start":2071.17,"end":2073.5699999999997,"text":"應檢附分析評估意見"},{"start":2073.5699999999997,"end":2075.41,"text":"依程序提交評審會"},{"start":2075.41,"end":2078.33,"text":"管理會核定後辦理撥款作業"},{"start":2078.33,"end":2080.37,"text":"若核定不參與現金增資"},{"start":2080.37,"end":2083.81,"text":"則將核定結果告知轉投資公司"},{"start":2083.81,"end":2087.33,"text":"第30條之6本條不予甄定"},{"start":2087.33,"end":2089.33,"text":"第30條之4"},{"start":2089.33,"end":2091.69,"text":"國家發展基金當選為"},{"start":2091.69,"end":2093.77,"text":"所投資事業之董"},{"start":2094.33,"end":2097.05,"text":"理監事或監察人士"},{"start":2097.05,"end":2102.69,"text":"應指派對該所投資事業所營業"},{"start":2102.69,"end":2105.21,"text":"務具有專門知識或經驗之"},{"start":2105.21,"end":2108.65,"text":"國家發展基金之專監職人員"},{"start":2108.65,"end":2110.49,"text":"或相關公務機關人員"},{"start":2110.49,"end":2112.21,"text":"學者專家擔任之"},{"start":2112.21,"end":2113.65,"text":"有關董理監事"},{"start":2114.54,"end":2117.74,"text":"監察人之領選管理及考核規定"},{"start":2117.74,"end":2120.02,"text":"由國家發展委員會另訂之"},{"start":2120.02,"end":2121.7,"text":"管理會委員"},{"start":2121.7,"end":2123.74,"text":"國家發展委員會主任委員"},{"start":2123.74,"end":2124.62,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":2124.62,"end":2126.86,"text":"及國家發展基金之專職人員"},{"start":2126.86,"end":2129.82,"text":"不得為下列各款行為"},{"start":2129.82,"end":2132.02,"text":"一 與其離職後五年內"},{"start":2132.02,"end":2137.02,"text":"擔任國家發展基金所投資事業之董理監事"},{"start":2137.02,"end":2139.9,"text":"監察人經理實行業務之"},{"start":2139.9,"end":2140.94,"text":"股東或顧問"},{"start":2140.94,"end":2144.14,"text":"二 與其任期期間自行或"},{"start":2144.14,"end":2147.7799999999997,"text":"以他人名義投資其參與決定之"},{"start":2147.7799999999997,"end":2150.3799999999997,"text":"國家發展基金所投資事業"},{"start":2150.3799999999997,"end":2151.8599999999997,"text":"違反前項規定則"},{"start":2151.8599999999997,"end":2154.14,"text":"除兩年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2154.14,"end":2156.66,"text":"得併科新臺幣100萬元以下發金"},{"start":2157.66,"end":2158.9,"text":"第三十條之五"},{"start":2158.9,"end":2163.02,"text":"國家發展基金之收支運用所投資事業"},{"start":2163.02,"end":2164.8599999999997,"text":"持股比例投資金額"},{"start":2164.8599999999997,"end":2167.5,"text":"績效及虧損由管理機關"},{"start":2167.5,"end":2171.22,"text":"按年於網站公告之管理會評審會"},{"start":2171.22,"end":2174.02,"text":"事股政策評估會之會議"},{"start":2174.02,"end":2177.42,"text":"因全程錄影妥善保存"},{"start":2177.42,"end":2180.54,"text":"並製作會議紀錄相實宰民會議"},{"start":2180.54,"end":2183.3399999999997,"text":"是由時間地點主席出席人員"},{"start":2183.3399999999997,"end":2185.58,"text":"列席人員討論事項決議"},{"start":2185.62,"end":2189.7799999999997,"text":"委員同意或不同意之立場及理由等相關事項"},{"start":2189.7799999999997,"end":2191.7,"text":"前項相實紀錄之會議"},{"start":2191.7,"end":2195.2999999999997,"text":"紀錄會議錄影等資料"},{"start":2195.2999999999997,"end":2196.46,"text":"應與封存"},{"start":2196.46,"end":2200.66,"text":"經管理機關或管理會同意使得拆封查驗"},{"start":2200.66,"end":2202.58,"text":"但立法院調查委員會"},{"start":2202.58,"end":2206.5,"text":"調查專案小組依法行使職權不在此限"},{"start":2206.5,"end":2207.58,"text":"第三十條"},{"start":2207.58,"end":2208.5,"text":"第三十一條"},{"start":2208.5,"end":2211.58,"text":"國家發展基金之來源如下"},{"start":2211.58,"end":2214.86,"text":"已由政府循預算程序之撥款"},{"start":2214.86,"end":2218.3,"text":"二投資計畫之事業投資收入"},{"start":2218.3,"end":2220.1,"text":"三貸款計畫之融"},{"start":2220.77,"end":2222.25,"text":"資業務收入"},{"start":2222.25,"end":2227.57,"text":"四國家發展基金財產管理及處分收入"},{"start":2227.57,"end":2229.61,"text":"五國家發展基金資息收入"},{"start":2229.61,"end":2231.21,"text":"六其他有關收入"},{"start":2231.21,"end":2234.53,"text":"國家發展基金資保管及運用辦法"},{"start":2234.53,"end":2236.13,"text":"由行政院定資"},{"start":2236.13,"end":2237.05,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2238.5299999999997,"end":2239.0099999999998,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2239.0099999999998,"end":2239.61,"text":"待會兒"},{"start":2240.5,"end":2242.58,"text":"可能請經濟部跟國安會"},{"start":2242.58,"end":2246.18,"text":"針對陳世衛委員等17人所提的十條之三"},{"start":2246.18,"end":2247.98,"text":"先做說明"},{"start":2247.98,"end":2253.14,"text":"另外民眾黨團提出的這個修正動議"},{"start":2253.14,"end":2256.1,"text":"剛才上上來這個主席都還沒看過"},{"start":2256.1,"end":2260.66,"text":"因為修正動議這個幾乎每一條都有修正動議"},{"start":2260.66,"end":2262.62,"text":"是不是請醫事人員先把"},{"start":2262.62,"end":2264.86,"text":"剛剛修正動議宣讀的內容"},{"start":2264.86,"end":2266.42,"text":"提供給在場委員參考"},{"start":2266.42,"end":2267.7,"text":"因為馬上就要審查了"},{"start":2270.26,"end":2272.38,"text":"那今天會議時間是到"},{"start":2272.38,"end":2273.38,"text":"今天廠商條例"},{"start":2274.12,"end":2277.48,"text":"我們審查條文時間是到上午10點30分"},{"start":2278.85,"end":2282.77,"text":"先請經濟部針對陳世衛委員所提的十條之三"},{"start":2282.77,"end":2284.0099999999998,"text":"請經濟部先做說明"},{"start":2296.3399999999997,"end":2299.18,"text":"各位委員大家早安"},{"start":2299.18,"end":2301.3399999999997,"text":"那經濟部針對"},{"start":2301.3399999999997,"end":2304.58,"text":"今天的這個提案討論的這個內容"},{"start":2304.58,"end":2308.54,"text":"首先就陳世衛委員提案的第十條之三"},{"start":2308.54,"end":2309.98,"text":"做了一個說明"},{"start":2309.98,"end":2314.3799999999997,"text":"那目前這個產創條例提供的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":2314.3799999999997,"end":2319.3799999999997,"text":"是以公司及有限合夥事業組織形態為主"},{"start":2319.3799999999997,"end":2323.9,"text":"那這個醫療法人是依照醫療法設立的"},{"start":2323.94,"end":2327.06,"text":"醫療拆檔法人或醫療社團法人"},{"start":2327.06,"end":2329.5,"text":"那長期照護服務機構法人"},{"start":2329.5,"end":2332.26,"text":"是依照長期照護服務機構法人"},{"start":2332.26,"end":2333.82,"text":"條例設立的長照"},{"start":2334.38,"end":2339.42,"text":"長照機構的裁判法人及長照機構社團法人"},{"start":2339.42,"end":2343.86,"text":"與公司有限合夥事業的屬性差異比較大"},{"start":2343.86,"end":2347.82,"text":"那另外就是說這次提案有關醫療法人"},{"start":2347.82,"end":2349.9,"text":"與長照機構法人的部分"},{"start":2349.9,"end":2353.38,"text":"是否適用租稅優惠涉及到主管機關"},{"start":2353.38,"end":2356.2200000000003,"text":"衛福部及財政部的權責"},{"start":2356.2200000000003,"end":2360.54,"text":"那我們是不是再請兩部再做一個評估"},{"start":2360.54,"end":2361.1,"text":"那以上"},{"start":2361.58,"end":2366.86,"text":"另外針對國發基金的相關的一些提案修正條文"},{"start":2366.86,"end":2371.02,"text":"那這個部分我們就尊重國發委的一個權責"},{"start":2371.02,"end":2371.54,"text":"以上"},{"start":2372.45,"end":2373.97,"text":"進行部合適長報告"},{"start":2376.13,"end":2378.57,"text":"現在請國安會業主委報告"},{"start":2383.66,"end":2385.66,"text":"主席委員大家好"},{"start":2385.66,"end":2391.74,"text":"那國發會對於陳樹月委員所提的那個產創條例"},{"start":2391.74,"end":2394.74,"text":"增訂第十條之三的這個修正案的話"},{"start":2394.74,"end":2398.62,"text":"國發會是肯定並且樂觀其成"},{"start":2398.62,"end":2403.66,"text":"那因為這個本案修訂涉及租稅減免"},{"start":2403.66,"end":2408.38,"text":"必須要由相關的主管機關辦理稅事支出評估"},{"start":2408.38,"end":2411.94,"text":"那因此目前是由衛生福利部辦理中"},{"start":2411.98,"end":2414.7000000000003,"text":"那有關辦理的進度跟評估的結果"},{"start":2414.7000000000003,"end":2418.98,"text":"那是不是請那個衛福部的同仁來說明一下"},{"start":2418.98,"end":2419.34,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2421.0699999999997,"end":2422.27,"text":"謝謝國會議員主委"},{"start":2422.27,"end":2424.5499999999997,"text":"那個稅事稅務評估"},{"start":2424.5499999999997,"end":2426.95,"text":"今天衛福部有代表"},{"start":2427.96,"end":2429.88,"text":"請醫事師"},{"start":2430.47,"end":2431.6299999999997,"text":"女繼任"},{"start":2432.51,"end":2435.2700000000004,"text":"針對這個稅事那個目前的進度"},{"start":2443.87,"end":2445.35,"text":"主席各位委員大家好"},{"start":2445.35,"end":2450.19,"text":"那有關這個這個法人的這個投資抵減的部分"},{"start":2450.19,"end":2451.87,"text":"特別是醫療法人部分"},{"start":2451.87,"end":2458.07,"text":"那之前是也承蒙這個委員這邊有提案針對是二三條之三的部分"},{"start":2458.07,"end":2459.71,"text":"有關投資抵減的部分"},{"start":2459.71,"end":2463.71,"text":"希望能夠有一再針對醫療涉難法人能夠做一些優免"},{"start":2463.71,"end":2465.35,"text":"那因此我們有關這個"},{"start":2465.35,"end":2467.9500000000003,"text":"可能到說因為租稅的這個優免呢"},{"start":2467.9500000000003,"end":2471.71,"text":"配合依據這個財政紀律法第六條的規定"},{"start":2471.79,"end":2475.79,"text":"必須先做整個稅市租稅的一個優免的一個必要性"},{"start":2475.79,"end":2477.39,"text":"跟時事的一個效益"},{"start":2477.39,"end":2482.23,"text":"跟他的一個時事的年限等這些的項目要去先去做一個評估"},{"start":2482.23,"end":2486.27,"text":"因此衛福部這邊已經在今年的八月"},{"start":2486.27,"end":2490.15,"text":"來進行這個稅事支出的評估的一個作業"},{"start":2490.15,"end":2492.23,"text":"那目前來講"},{"start":2492.23,"end":2495.51,"text":"預計在年底的部分會有一個出稿"},{"start":2495.51,"end":2496.55,"text":"不過因為這一次"},{"start":2496.59,"end":2499.07,"text":"因為陳委員的這個提案"},{"start":2499.07,"end":2502.23,"text":"有擴及了這個醫療財產法人"},{"start":2502.23,"end":2505.3100000000004,"text":"那這個部分變成是新的一個項目"},{"start":2505.3100000000004,"end":2508.4300000000003,"text":"那部裡面會再定型去做一個評估"},{"start":2508.4300000000003,"end":2510.4700000000003,"text":"那整個評估如果要完成的話"},{"start":2510.4700000000003,"end":2513.07,"text":"大概預計會到明年會比較"},{"start":2513.07,"end":2514.8700000000003,"text":"明年年初會比較完整以上"},{"start":2516.9,"end":2518.46,"text":"謝謝醫事司"},{"start":2518.46,"end":2519.7000000000003,"text":"李經濟的說明"},{"start":2519.7000000000003,"end":2520.38,"text":"這個"},{"start":2522.25,"end":2525.29,"text":"稅市租稅的評估"},{"start":2526.34,"end":2529.42,"text":"這個之前我就拜託你們"},{"start":2529.42,"end":2532.26,"text":"把這時間能夠掌握能夠提早"},{"start":2532.26,"end":2533.54,"text":"那時候八月開始啟動"},{"start":2534.27,"end":2537.67,"text":"這個希望在九月可以完成"},{"start":2538.64,"end":2540.44,"text":"是好像你剛剛李居正說法"},{"start":2540.44,"end":2542.2799999999997,"text":"是要到年底才完成"},{"start":2542.2799999999997,"end":2543,"text":"因為你這個"},{"start":2545.84,"end":2547,"text":"這個評估沒有出來"},{"start":2547,"end":2549.04,"text":"我沒有辦法針對失調資產來審"},{"start":2549.64,"end":2551.4,"text":"加上我23小時生也沒辦法審"},{"start":2552.16,"end":2553.8399999999997,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":2553.8399999999997,"end":2554.92,"text":"請醫事司能夠"},{"start":2555.49,"end":2556.29,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":2556.29,"end":2558.6099999999997,"text":"我更早之前五六月也跟你們提醒說"},{"start":2558.6099999999997,"end":2561.6499999999996,"text":"是不是趕快把這個評估做出來"},{"start":2561.6499999999996,"end":2565.0099999999998,"text":"是不是可以拜託這個醫事司加快進度"},{"start":2565.0099999999998,"end":2566.5299999999997,"text":"我們是在九月底把它完成"},{"start":2568.36,"end":2570.44,"text":"我說我這個失調資產跟我這個"},{"start":2570.44,"end":2572.96,"text":"陳樹月失調資產跟23條資產沒辦法審"},{"start":2575.63,"end":2576.79,"text":"李居正再次說明一下"},{"start":2580.33,"end":2582.33,"text":"跟張偉還有各位委員報告"},{"start":2582.33,"end":2584.21,"text":"因為稅事支出對衛福部來講"},{"start":2584.21,"end":2586.93,"text":"是一個陌生的一個業務"},{"start":2586.93,"end":2589.17,"text":"我們之前並沒有接觸過"},{"start":2589.17,"end":2592.29,"text":"因此我們變成是要委託學者專家"},{"start":2592.29,"end":2594.33,"text":"幫我們做一個評估"},{"start":2594.33,"end":2596.13,"text":"那因此他在時間上"},{"start":2596.13,"end":2599.25,"text":"有一些行政作業的時間必須做克服"},{"start":2600.33,"end":2601.97,"text":"九月"},{"start":2603.2599999999998,"end":2605.22,"text":"可能會有一些困難"},{"start":2605.22,"end":2605.98,"text":"先做一個說明"},{"start":2605.98,"end":2607.8199999999997,"text":"因為這對我們來講我們沒有做過"},{"start":2607.8199999999997,"end":2610.02,"text":"所以真的也是希望"},{"start":2610.02,"end":2612.58,"text":"各位委員能夠給我們多一點時間"},{"start":2612.58,"end":2614.4199999999996,"text":"但是我們會盡快希望把這個案子"},{"start":2614.4199999999996,"end":2615.22,"text":"趕快做出來"},{"start":2616.6,"end":2619.24,"text":"居正您可能上次出席不是您"},{"start":2619.24,"end":2620.44,"text":"上次出席的代表"},{"start":2620.44,"end":2623.92,"text":"也就是說九月底盡量可以完成"},{"start":2623.92,"end":2625.7599999999998,"text":"這個稅事支出的評估"},{"start":2625.7599999999998,"end":2628.52,"text":"當初找不到主管機關來做"},{"start":2630.09,"end":2631.73,"text":"說這應該是主管機關"},{"start":2631.73,"end":2633.57,"text":"主管機關就是醫師師"},{"start":2633.57,"end":2634.4500000000003,"text":"衛福部"},{"start":2634.4500000000003,"end":2637.65,"text":"所以最後這個折衝協調的結論"},{"start":2637.65,"end":2641.21,"text":"就是由衛福部醫師來做"},{"start":2641.21,"end":2643.61,"text":"那個做決定是我做的決定"},{"start":2643.61,"end":2646.73,"text":"那時候協調會開是五六月份"},{"start":2646.73,"end":2648.61,"text":"現在已經八月了"},{"start":2648.61,"end":2650.21,"text":"所以我是希望說"},{"start":2650.21,"end":2651.4900000000002,"text":"雖然你們委外"},{"start":2651.4900000000002,"end":2653.8900000000003,"text":"但是能夠盡可能在行政聯合成份"},{"start":2653.8900000000003,"end":2655.77,"text":"能夠進行快一點"},{"start":2655.77,"end":2657.09,"text":"或者會影響到後面的進度"},{"start":2657.09,"end":2658.4900000000002,"text":"你一個條文沒有過"},{"start":2658.49,"end":2659.5299999999997,"text":"我就沒有辦法"},{"start":2660.22,"end":2664.14,"text":"送到協商或者送到院會去"},{"start":2664.73,"end":2666.21,"text":"所以這個部分再請"},{"start":2666.21,"end":2668.77,"text":"是不是還是要按照原定的時程"},{"start":2668.77,"end":2670.57,"text":"是不是希望九月底能夠把它完成"},{"start":2672.32,"end":2673.7200000000003,"text":"主席我們盡快"},{"start":2673.7200000000003,"end":2674.7200000000003,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2678.62,"end":2680.8199999999997,"text":"來我們進行產創條例"},{"start":2680.8199999999997,"end":2682.94,"text":"不論條文修正草案的這個審查"},{"start":2685.77,"end":2687.77,"text":"那個大家手上"},{"start":2687.77,"end":2690.77,"text":"針對民進黨今天提出的修正動議"},{"start":2690.77,"end":2692.29,"text":"各位委員手上都有"},{"start":2693.2,"end":2695.56,"text":"我們逐條來做審查"},{"start":2697.83,"end":2699.99,"text":"29條的部分"},{"start":2699.99,"end":2702.07,"text":"這個民進黨團這個後面"},{"start":2702.07,"end":2703.27,"text":"你要不要再說說明一下"},{"start":2704.88,"end":2706.52,"text":"因為跟召委會委員"},{"start":2706.52,"end":2708.4,"text":"各位委員說明一下"},{"start":2708.4,"end":2711.76,"text":"因為最早我們提出這樣子的一個條文"},{"start":2711.76,"end":2714.6,"text":"然後接下來的話又修正的條文"},{"start":2714.6,"end":2715.56,"text":"那今天又再修正"},{"start":2715.56,"end":2716.92,"text":"主要是因為跟國發會"},{"start":2716.92,"end":2718.84,"text":"他沒有這個版本"},{"start":2718.84,"end":2720.56,"text":"那我們也是把一些東西"},{"start":2720.56,"end":2722.88,"text":"跟他們密集的溝通協商"},{"start":2722.88,"end":2725.2400000000002,"text":"所以今天再送出來的這個"},{"start":2725.2400000000002,"end":2726.92,"text":"再修正動議的話"},{"start":2726.92,"end":2729.44,"text":"大概是已經跟國發會"},{"start":2729.44,"end":2731.7200000000003,"text":"就是歷經密集的協商開會"},{"start":2731.7200000000003,"end":2734.04,"text":"雙方大概目前可以接受"},{"start":2734.04,"end":2737.44,"text":"當然還是有一點小小的堅持的條文數"},{"start":2737.44,"end":2739.44,"text":"那個就比較少了"},{"start":2740.55,"end":2742.3900000000003,"text":"29條來講的話"},{"start":2742.3900000000003,"end":2745.19,"text":"主要就是把這個國發基金的"},{"start":2745.19,"end":2746.8700000000003,"text":"這個的辦法"},{"start":2746.8700000000003,"end":2749.67,"text":"把它稍微再寫得更清楚一點"},{"start":2749.67,"end":2751.51,"text":"也就是說他這個"},{"start":2751.51,"end":2753.9500000000003,"text":"建立一個責任的中心制度"},{"start":2753.9500000000003,"end":2755.59,"text":"讓我們希望國發基金的投資"},{"start":2755.59,"end":2757.4700000000003,"text":"在收入跟成本的控制"},{"start":2757.4700000000003,"end":2759.67,"text":"有一些財務的功能發揮"},{"start":2759.67,"end":2763.15,"text":"那這個國發會目前應該是OK的"},{"start":2763.15,"end":2764.4700000000003,"text":"就是這個條文"},{"start":2764.4700000000003,"end":2767.27,"text":"他尊重本黨團的一個提案"},{"start":2768.82,"end":2772.42,"text":"好這個我想聽一下國外的意見"},{"start":2772.42,"end":2773.3,"text":"請國外委員主委"},{"start":2776.99,"end":2778.0699999999997,"text":"張偉根委員好"},{"start":2778.0699999999997,"end":2779.0299999999997,"text":"這個部分的話"},{"start":2779.0299999999997,"end":2782.0299999999997,"text":"我們國發會尊重那個黨團的提議"},{"start":2783.0299999999997,"end":2784.75,"text":"這裡面一些文字的修正"},{"start":2784.75,"end":2785.91,"text":"不過我請教一下"},{"start":2785.91,"end":2788.0699999999997,"text":"所謂29條之一你們這個"},{"start":2788.66,"end":2790.5,"text":"責任中心制度"},{"start":2791.61,"end":2793.9300000000003,"text":"相關的類似這個"},{"start":2795.91,"end":2797.31,"text":"跟國發基金相關的"},{"start":2798.83,"end":2802.35,"text":"有沒有類似這種所謂的責任中心制度"},{"start":2802.35,"end":2804.39,"text":"如果你在國發基金"},{"start":2804.39,"end":2806.23,"text":"設立一個責任中心制度"},{"start":2806.23,"end":2808.27,"text":"那其他的國家相關的基金"},{"start":2808.27,"end":2810.83,"text":"是會有的建議要求比照辦理"},{"start":2810.83,"end":2811.95,"text":"你要"},{"start":2811.95,"end":2813.59,"text":"這個你要知道"},{"start":2813.59,"end":2815.15,"text":"後續的一個效益"},{"start":2815.15,"end":2816.99,"text":"那責任中心制度"},{"start":2816.99,"end":2819.19,"text":"他有沒有相關的法規依據"},{"start":2821.08,"end":2824.2,"text":"總不能這個29條就索取你指定中心制度"},{"start":2824.2,"end":2824.68,"text":"制度"},{"start":2825.44,"end":2826.88,"text":"還有寬鬆的制度"},{"start":2826.88,"end":2828.7200000000003,"text":"也有嚴謹的制度"},{"start":2828.7200000000003,"end":2829.6,"text":"還有"},{"start":2829.6,"end":2830.84,"text":"要不要定期開會"},{"start":2831.68,"end":2833.4,"text":"他有沒有相關的"},{"start":2833.4,"end":2834.48,"text":"這個責任保證"},{"start":2834.48,"end":2835.4,"text":"或者責任的"},{"start":2836.02,"end":2837.46,"text":"這個義務"},{"start":2837.46,"end":2839.06,"text":"如果他會有他的責任"},{"start":2839.8199999999997,"end":2840.74,"text":"不然他義務"},{"start":2840.74,"end":2842.8199999999997,"text":"有沒有相關的法子"},{"start":2842.8199999999997,"end":2844.54,"text":"所以我是覺得這個"},{"start":2844.54,"end":2845.2999999999997,"text":"管理機關"},{"start":2845.8,"end":2846.88,"text":"是你們國會"},{"start":2846.88,"end":2847.84,"text":"國會"},{"start":2847.84,"end":2850.0800000000004,"text":"你要建立這個責任中心制度"},{"start":2850.0800000000004,"end":2850.6000000000004,"text":"未來"},{"start":2851.2,"end":2852.56,"text":"要怎麼樣讓他"},{"start":2852.56,"end":2853.92,"text":"可行"},{"start":2853.92,"end":2856.08,"text":"要怎麼讓他這個所謂責任中心制度"},{"start":2856.08,"end":2857.12,"text":"能夠發揮功效"},{"start":2858.5699999999997,"end":2860.5699999999997,"text":"這個你們要有一個詳細的評估"},{"start":2860.5699999999997,"end":2861.2099999999996,"text":"會"},{"start":2861.2099999999996,"end":2863.7299999999996,"text":"我們是不是再跟那個民眾黨"},{"start":2863.7299999999996,"end":2865.6099999999997,"text":"黨團就這個部分的細節"},{"start":2865.6099999999997,"end":2866.0899999999997,"text":"再討論"},{"start":2866.0899999999997,"end":2867.41,"text":"你不是跟這個民眾黨團"},{"start":2867.41,"end":2867.89,"text":"這個"},{"start":2867.89,"end":2869.6499999999996,"text":"你就針對全"},{"start":2869.6499999999996,"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有可能"},{"start":2893.9300000000003,"end":2895.13,"text":"到時候你答應了"},{"start":2895.13,"end":2895.8900000000003,"text":"下面"},{"start":2895.8900000000003,"end":2897.8900000000003,"text":"風險是下面同仁在承擔"},{"start":2897.8900000000003,"end":2899.4900000000002,"text":"這也"},{"start":2899.4900000000002,"end":2900.8900000000003,"text":"不符合比例原則"},{"start":2900.8900000000003,"end":2901.57,"text":"來 中央部委員"},{"start":2902.44,"end":2903.92,"text":"來 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392.6,"end":3394.12,"text":"其他增加產業效益"},{"start":3394.2799999999997,"end":3395.3199999999997,"text":"的輔導計畫"},{"start":3395.3199999999997,"end":3396.7599999999998,"text":"這個資金的用途是這樣"},{"start":3396.7599999999998,"end":3397.48,"text":"第三個"},{"start":3397.48,"end":3399.72,"text":"協助中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3399.72,"end":3403.3199999999997,"text":"辦理相關的投融資或技術合作支出"},{"start":3403.3199999999997,"end":3404.9199999999996,"text":"而且這裡面規範的"},{"start":3404.9199999999996,"end":3406.9199999999996,"text":"跟中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3406.9199999999996,"end":3407.9599999999996,"text":"包括經濟發展"},{"start":3407.9599999999996,"end":3409,"text":"農業科技社會發展"},{"start":3409,"end":3410.52,"text":"等等這些東西"},{"start":3411.24,"end":3414.04,"text":"這是我們國發基金設置的用途"},{"start":3414.94,"end":3417.34,"text":"第29條你要把管理的機關"},{"start":3417.34,"end":3419.1,"text":"跟他的用途並在一起看"},{"start":3419.1,"end":3421.82,"text":"單單我們看我剛剛就是聽到責任中心"},{"start":3422.45,"end":3424.45,"text":"責任中心是用於盈利事業"},{"start":3425.12,"end":3426.72,"text":"國發基金的目的"},{"start":3426.72,"end":3428.72,"text":"不是成立一個事業體"},{"start":3428.72,"end":3430.72,"text":"要追求最大利潤"},{"start":3430.57,"end":3431.61,"text":"所以我們看一看"},{"start":3431.61,"end":3433.9300000000003,"text":"如果是要把責任中心放在一個"},{"start":3433.9300000000003,"end":3437.9300000000003,"text":"以產業政策輔導為目的的一個政府部門"},{"start":3437.9300000000003,"end":3439.77,"text":"那就非常的可笑"},{"start":3439.77,"end":3441.05,"text":"什麼叫做責任中心呢"},{"start":3441.05,"end":3443.3700000000003,"text":"責任中心它是用於盈利事業"},{"start":3443.3700000000003,"end":3445.3700000000003,"text":"它當中包括了成本中心"},{"start":3445.3700000000003,"end":3446.73,"text":"包括了收益中心"},{"start":3446.73,"end":3447.8500000000004,"text":"包括了利潤中心"},{"start":3447.8500000000004,"end":3449.4500000000003,"text":"包括了投資中心"},{"start":3449.4500000000003,"end":3451.61,"text":"如果主張要在一個機構"},{"start":3451.61,"end":3454.57,"text":"要成為一個有責任中心制度的設計"},{"start":3454.57,"end":3456.17,"text":"它的前提非常清楚"},{"start":3456.17,"end":3459.69,"text":"它是以追求利潤為目的的一個事業體"},{"start":3459.69,"end":3462.33,"text":"那國發基金是要以追求"},{"start":3462.33,"end":3464.9700000000003,"text":"哪一個事業體的最高利潤為目的"},{"start":3464.9700000000003,"end":3466.01,"text":"那這種情況之下"},{"start":3466.01,"end":3467.21,"text":"你錯誤的將一個"},{"start":3467.21,"end":3469.4500000000003,"text":"盈利事業的責任中心的概念"},{"start":3469.4500000000003,"end":3471.37,"text":"你要導入一個國發基金"},{"start":3471.37,"end":3474.41,"text":"而且還要它以國發會來做為管理機關"},{"start":3474.41,"end":3477.21,"text":"國發會不是一個盈利事業"},{"start":3478.09,"end":3479.8500000000004,"text":"國發會如果不是一個盈利事業"},{"start":3479.8500000000004,"end":3482.01,"text":"它如何能做為一個"},{"start":3482.01,"end":3484.01,"text":"以盈利為目的的一個基金"},{"start":3484.01,"end":3485.29,"text":"這個基金聽起來"},{"start":3485.29,"end":3487.21,"text":"比方是以創造利潤"},{"start":3487.21,"end":3489.29,"text":"創造收益的投資型的基金"},{"start":3489.29,"end":3492.01,"text":"這比較像是民間在做的事情"},{"start":3492.01,"end":3493.3700000000003,"text":"以公務部門"},{"start":3493.3700000000003,"end":3496.65,"text":"去經營一個以盈利為目的的投資基金"},{"start":3496.65,"end":3499.13,"text":"然後還要以責任中心來管理"},{"start":3499.13,"end":3501.61,"text":"這是非常的荒謬跟可笑"},{"start":3501.61,"end":3502.8900000000003,"text":"我真的不曉得說"},{"start":3502.8900000000003,"end":3505.21,"text":"國發會在面對這29條的時候"},{"start":3505.21,"end":3506.81,"text":"難道沒有翻一翻"},{"start":3506.89,"end":3508.33,"text":"你們第30條"},{"start":3508.33,"end":3510.09,"text":"你們國發基金過去"},{"start":3510.09,"end":3511.29,"text":"你們的主要任務是什麼"},{"start":3511.87,"end":3512.99,"text":"哪一點"},{"start":3512.99,"end":3515.47,"text":"你們是用來要去追求最大利潤"},{"start":3516.09,"end":3517.69,"text":"你們如何去判斷"},{"start":3518.1,"end":3518.8199999999997,"text":"它的成本"},{"start":3519.53,"end":3520.8900000000003,"text":"如何去判斷它的利潤"},{"start":3521.66,"end":3523.3399999999997,"text":"如何去判斷它的營收"},{"start":3523.3399999999997,"end":3524.62,"text":"你本身不是個製造業"},{"start":3524.62,"end":3525.8199999999997,"text":"不是個服務業"},{"start":3525.8199999999997,"end":3527.42,"text":"你是一個基金"},{"start":3527.42,"end":3530.8599999999997,"text":"透過這樣的基金的投融制的調度"},{"start":3530.8599999999997,"end":3532.94,"text":"針對特定的創新技術"},{"start":3532.94,"end":3534.54,"text":"你協助它"},{"start":3534.54,"end":3538.46,"text":"那難道以這樣為本質的一個基金"},{"start":3538.46,"end":3540.8599999999997,"text":"你可以用一個29條"},{"start":3540.8599999999997,"end":3542.62,"text":"硬生生塞入一個責任中心"},{"start":3542.62,"end":3543.66,"text":"來加以管理嗎"},{"start":3544.15,"end":3545.75,"text":"非常的可笑"},{"start":3545.75,"end":3547.19,"text":"我過去在多次"},{"start":3547.19,"end":3550.63,"text":"包括各黨派在討論國發基金的績效的時候"},{"start":3550.63,"end":3551.75,"text":"最可笑的一點"},{"start":3552.4,"end":3554.88,"text":"就是要求國發基金的投資的"},{"start":3554.88,"end":3555.6,"text":"當然能賺錢"},{"start":3557.72,"end":3559.16,"text":"投資必有風險"},{"start":3559.88,"end":3561.0800000000004,"text":"那多少投資能賺錢"},{"start":3561.0800000000004,"end":3562.1200000000003,"text":"民間做就可以了"},{"start":3562.1200000000003,"end":3563.88,"text":"哪需要你國家部門來做"},{"start":3563.88,"end":3565.96,"text":"就是因為有些不見得能夠賺錢"},{"start":3565.96,"end":3567.88,"text":"初期它需要技術創新"},{"start":3567.88,"end":3568.92,"text":"需要資金的挹注"},{"start":3569.56,"end":3571.8,"text":"所以我們是產業創新條例"},{"start":3571.8,"end":3573.4,"text":"如果說我們國發基金"},{"start":3573.4,"end":3575.48,"text":"都要投資那個已經明顯可以賺錢的"},{"start":3576.35,"end":3577.63,"text":"那就不用產業創新了"},{"start":3577.63,"end":3580.43,"text":"你就是市場上看藍籌股買就好啦"},{"start":3581.69,"end":3583.69,"text":"這連私募都不會幹這樣的事情"},{"start":3583.69,"end":3585.4500000000003,"text":"私募100件當中"},{"start":3585.4500000000003,"end":3586.73,"text":"兩三件能夠"},{"start":3587.2,"end":3587.8399999999997,"text":"賺錢"},{"start":3589.04,"end":3590.56,"text":"其他的90幾件"},{"start":3590.56,"end":3591.6800000000003,"text":"他還是會賠"},{"start":3591.6800000000003,"end":3592.64,"text":"但是為什麼"},{"start":3592.64,"end":3596.08,"text":"私募基金在產業創新的初期投入"},{"start":3596.08,"end":3599.04,"text":"它後面的投資報收效益是很大的"},{"start":3599.97,"end":3601.0899999999997,"text":"兩三件成功"},{"start":3601.0899999999997,"end":3603.0899999999997,"text":"賺出來的本是100倍"},{"start":3603.0899999999997,"end":3605.41,"text":"所以前面90幾件失敗"},{"start":3605.41,"end":3606.21,"text":"還是可以回本"},{"start":3606.87,"end":3608.71,"text":"那是私募的概念"},{"start":3608.71,"end":3611.67,"text":"但是我們這裡談的是國家政策的發展"},{"start":3612.14,"end":3614.62,"text":"所以請國發會不要忽略了"},{"start":3614.62,"end":3616.7799999999997,"text":"你們29條跟第30條"},{"start":3616.7799999999997,"end":3619.58,"text":"它是有本身的一個政策輔導的機制在內"},{"start":3619.58,"end":3623.42,"text":"不要用民間的投資公司的概念角度"},{"start":3623.42,"end":3625.58,"text":"以追求最大利潤去思考"},{"start":3625.58,"end":3627.34,"text":"而且要應聲的插入一個"},{"start":3627.34,"end":3630.62,"text":"牛頭不對馬嘴的責任中心制度"},{"start":3633.47,"end":3634.27,"text":"呃"},{"start":3634.96,"end":3636.08,"text":"感謝中嘉賓"},{"start":3637,"end":3639,"text":"這麼的堅定的發言"},{"start":3640.83,"end":3642.75,"text":"主要這個東西也不是我們創造"},{"start":3642.75,"end":3645.63,"text":"它也不是要跟什麼利潤中心分配"},{"start":3645.63,"end":3646.5099999999998,"text":"主要的話"},{"start":3646.5099999999998,"end":3648.35,"text":"是我們根據的這個"},{"start":3648.35,"end":3653.5499999999997,"text":"在國發基金收支保管跟運用辦法裡面"},{"start":3653.5499999999997,"end":3654.83,"text":"他所寫的"},{"start":3654.83,"end":3656.0299999999997,"text":"第三條"},{"start":3656.72,"end":3657.8399999999997,"text":"主要寫了兩項"},{"start":3657.8399999999997,"end":3660.3199999999997,"text":"本資金是主管機關於行政院"},{"start":3660.3199999999997,"end":3662.56,"text":"管理機關為國家發展委員會"},{"start":3662.56,"end":3663.2,"text":"二"},{"start":3663.2,"end":3666.7999999999997,"text":"前項之管理機關應建立責任中心制度"},{"start":3666.7999999999997,"end":3669.2,"text":"與確保收入跟控制成本"},{"start":3669.2,"end":3670.7999999999997,"text":"發揮財務管理功能"},{"start":3671.64,"end":3674.12,"text":"所以表示國發基金的收支"},{"start":3674.12,"end":3677.08,"text":"跟管理的這個辦法的第三條的第二項"},{"start":3677.92,"end":3678.7200000000003,"text":"是胡說八道"},{"start":3679.66,"end":3680.06,"text":"亂寫"},{"start":3681.35,"end":3682.95,"text":"如果是這種論述的話"},{"start":3683.49,"end":3684.29,"text":"當然不是吧"},{"start":3685.11,"end":3687.4300000000003,"text":"所謂的責任中心它就是明定在這裡"},{"start":3687.4300000000003,"end":3689.27,"text":"這個細節的法則辦法"},{"start":3689.27,"end":3690.79,"text":"我們把它拿出來"},{"start":3690.79,"end":3692.55,"text":"讓這個國發基金"},{"start":3693.15,"end":3696.4300000000003,"text":"管理會有確保更這樣子的責任的中心"},{"start":3696.4300000000003,"end":3698.03,"text":"國發基金本來就不是說"},{"start":3698.03,"end":3700.51,"text":"他一定是賺錢跟民間投資公司"},{"start":3700.51,"end":3701.55,"text":"我也幹過創投"},{"start":3701.55,"end":3703.79,"text":"我也幹過國發基金的審查委員"},{"start":3703.79,"end":3705.71,"text":"你只要投資100件有兩件中"},{"start":3707.24,"end":3709.48,"text":"我們台積電最早期那麼大的一個投資"},{"start":3709.48,"end":3711.7999999999997,"text":"現在還是靠他的收益是最大的"},{"start":3711.7999999999997,"end":3713.7999999999997,"text":"基本上我們只是說"},{"start":3713.7999999999997,"end":3716.6,"text":"在這個細節的辦法裡頭"},{"start":3716.6,"end":3718.6,"text":"我們把它拉到這樣子的條文"},{"start":3718.6,"end":3721.3999999999996,"text":"希望讓這個國發基金管理機關"},{"start":3721.3999999999996,"end":3723.24,"text":"在他各自的控制成本"},{"start":3723.24,"end":3725.3199999999997,"text":"因為國發基金不只有投資而已"},{"start":3725.3199999999997,"end":3727.24,"text":"他還有委託台商的投資"},{"start":3727.24,"end":3728.52,"text":"你還有融資"},{"start":3728.52,"end":3731.56,"text":"等等這樣子的一個各個不同的項目"},{"start":3731.56,"end":3733.7999999999997,"text":"所以我們是希望以這樣的角度"},{"start":3733.8,"end":3736.04,"text":"每一個不管是投融資的"},{"start":3736.96,"end":3741.52,"text":"能夠有他的一個收入跟成本的結構的分析"},{"start":3741.52,"end":3743.92,"text":"做為你國發基金管理委員會"},{"start":3743.92,"end":3748.2400000000002,"text":"在確認這樣子的每一項的投融資的業務的時候"},{"start":3748.2400000000002,"end":3750.56,"text":"是不是有達到你當初設定的效果"},{"start":3750.56,"end":3751.52,"text":"這樣子就好了"},{"start":3752.54,"end":3753.34,"text":"謝謝郭先生"},{"start":3753.34,"end":3755.34,"text":"我個人的看法是這樣子"},{"start":3755.34,"end":3758.94,"text":"既然在收支保管應用辦法裡面就已經很明定"},{"start":3760.3999999999996,"end":3763.04,"text":"通常立法官的執法已經有明定了"},{"start":3763.04,"end":3764.7999999999997,"text":"通常是不會拿來這個"},{"start":3764.7999999999997,"end":3766.7999999999997,"text":"文法裡面再重新再講一次"},{"start":3766.7999999999997,"end":3768.3999999999996,"text":"執法已經有明確規定"},{"start":3768.3999999999996,"end":3769.3599999999997,"text":"第二項"},{"start":3769.3599999999997,"end":3771.3599999999997,"text":"你要怎麼樣跟你30條之一"},{"start":3772.67,"end":3774.67,"text":"30條之一也是明檔"},{"start":3775.34,"end":3777.34,"text":"這個新制定的"},{"start":3783.93,"end":3787.6099999999997,"text":"這個收支保管應用設置管理委員會"},{"start":3787.6099999999997,"end":3790.0899999999997,"text":"管理委員會11到13人"},{"start":3790.0899999999997,"end":3792.0899999999997,"text":"還有召集人副召集人"},{"start":3792.0899999999997,"end":3793.6099999999997,"text":"包括各部的部長"},{"start":3793.6099999999997,"end":3794.5699999999997,"text":"還有學者專家"},{"start":3795.29,"end":3797.37,"text":"你有這個管理委員會"},{"start":3798.13,"end":3799.65,"text":"到底管理委員會大"},{"start":3799.65,"end":3801.65,"text":"還是你的責任中心"},{"start":3802.71,"end":3804.31,"text":"這個會不會自動上的鏡"},{"start":3804.89,"end":3806.49,"text":"這會有技術上的矛盾"},{"start":3806.49,"end":3808.49,"text":"你執法已經有規定說"},{"start":3808.49,"end":3810.97,"text":"管理辦法要有所謂的責任中心"},{"start":3810.97,"end":3812.49,"text":"那我看起來"},{"start":3812.49,"end":3814.49,"text":"你這個國外基金管理委員會"},{"start":3814.96,"end":3818.32,"text":"這個民眾黨新修訂的"},{"start":3818.86,"end":3820.1400000000003,"text":"這個就是所謂的"},{"start":3820.64,"end":3824.16,"text":"這個責任中心的精神在裡面"},{"start":3824.16,"end":3825.68,"text":"那你何必跌床架"},{"start":3825.68,"end":3826.72,"text":"這是我的看法"},{"start":3826.72,"end":3828.24,"text":"提供給各位做參考"},{"start":3828.24,"end":3829.52,"text":"來 邱應偉"},{"start":3829.52,"end":3830.7999999999997,"text":"邱應偉之後 曾蔭才"},{"start":3830.7999999999997,"end":3832.7999999999997,"text":"曾蔭才之後 鍾佑斌"},{"start":3833.58,"end":3834.46,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3834.46,"end":3836.94,"text":"我的想法跟這個主席雷同"},{"start":3836.94,"end":3840.1400000000003,"text":"我是不是可以請教一下法治單位"},{"start":3840.1400000000003,"end":3842.46,"text":"法務部 我看今天法務部參事友來"},{"start":3844.08,"end":3845.28,"text":"我可不可以說明一下"},{"start":3845.28,"end":3848.2400000000002,"text":"在整個立法精神上面"},{"start":3849.17,"end":3850.85,"text":"所以你的行政細則"},{"start":3850.85,"end":3853.17,"text":"行政施行細則裡頭有明定"},{"start":3853.17,"end":3855.9700000000003,"text":"等一下把施行細則的明定的條文"},{"start":3855.9700000000003,"end":3857.9700000000003,"text":"把它拿到魔法裡面來"},{"start":3858.97,"end":3860.1699999999996,"text":"這個在整個"},{"start":3860.1699999999996,"end":3862.1699999999996,"text":"我們的國家的整個立法精神"},{"start":3862.1699999999996,"end":3863.29,"text":"立法架構上面"},{"start":3863.92,"end":3865.36,"text":"會不會產生所有的"},{"start":3865.36,"end":3867.04,"text":"跌床家屋的影響"},{"start":3867.04,"end":3868.08,"text":"那我們上個禮拜"},{"start":3868.08,"end":3869.76,"text":"在處理農法條例的時候"},{"start":3869.76,"end":3870.88,"text":"民眾黨也是這樣"},{"start":3871.61,"end":3873.05,"text":"他也是把施行細則的東西"},{"start":3873.05,"end":3874.65,"text":"拿到魔法裡頭來"},{"start":3874.65,"end":3875.9300000000003,"text":"那現在看起來民眾黨"},{"start":3876.57,"end":3878.73,"text":"是不是未來都是要把施行細則的東西"},{"start":3878.73,"end":3881.3700000000003,"text":"拿到每一個魔法"},{"start":3881.3700000000003,"end":3883.3700000000003,"text":"每一個要修改的魔法裡頭"},{"start":3884.27,"end":3886.83,"text":"那未來你的施行細則"},{"start":3886.83,"end":3888.27,"text":"其實內部是可以"},{"start":3888.27,"end":3890.19,"text":"比較容易去做一些調整"},{"start":3890.19,"end":3891.63,"text":"可以因應時事的變化"},{"start":3891.63,"end":3894.43,"text":"因應很多制度的變化去做調整"},{"start":3894.43,"end":3896.43,"text":"那你把它放到魔法裡頭來"},{"start":3897.51,"end":3899.67,"text":"要修訂並不容易"},{"start":3900.56,"end":3903.04,"text":"那在魔法裡頭去明定的話"},{"start":3903.04,"end":3905.04,"text":"那施行細則未來要怎麼辦"},{"start":3905.04,"end":3907.04,"text":"這整個立法架構上面"},{"start":3907.04,"end":3909.04,"text":"可不可以請做一下說明"},{"start":3908.87,"end":3910.47,"text":"好請法務部634說明"},{"start":3917.75,"end":3921.35,"text":"剛剛委員所提的這個收支保管辦法"},{"start":3921.35,"end":3922.63,"text":"主管機關這邊有"},{"start":3922.63,"end":3926.15,"text":"他是根據產創條例授權訂定的"},{"start":3926.15,"end":3928.39,"text":"那他的性質就是法規命令"},{"start":3928.39,"end":3932.15,"text":"已經有法律授權而定的"},{"start":3932.15,"end":3933.59,"text":"所以他的性質"},{"start":3933.59,"end":3935.59,"text":"效力其實跟"},{"start":3935.59,"end":3937.35,"text":"就是有法的位階"},{"start":3937.35,"end":3940.23,"text":"法律還有法律授權的法規命令"},{"start":3940.23,"end":3941.43,"text":"那他的內容"},{"start":3941.43,"end":3944.39,"text":"如果效果跟法律定"},{"start":3945.5899999999997,"end":3947.5899999999997,"text":"如果從法律位階來看"},{"start":3947.5899999999997,"end":3949.5899999999997,"text":"是不一定說"},{"start":3949.5899999999997,"end":3951.5899999999997,"text":"一定又要拉到條文裡面"},{"start":3951.5899999999997,"end":3953.5899999999997,"text":"再去訂一次"},{"start":3953.5899999999997,"end":3956.95,"text":"因為他本來就是產創條例授權訂定的"},{"start":3956.95,"end":3959.5899999999997,"text":"除非說對這個授權的範圍"},{"start":3959.5899999999997,"end":3961.99,"text":"還是授權的明確性有問題"},{"start":3961.99,"end":3963.99,"text":"那就看授權條款那邊"},{"start":3963.99,"end":3965.99,"text":"怎麼樣去調整"},{"start":3965.99,"end":3967.99,"text":"怎麼樣修正"},{"start":3967.99,"end":3969.99,"text":"程序上是從這樣來處理"},{"start":3969.99,"end":3971.99,"text":"會比較符合他授權的"},{"start":3971.99,"end":3974.79,"text":"那如果現在把"},{"start":3974.79,"end":3976.79,"text":"法律授權訂定的法規命令"},{"start":3976.79,"end":3978.79,"text":"改成法律授權"},{"start":3978.79,"end":3980.79,"text":"那他本來就是產創條例授權"},{"start":3980.79,"end":3982.79,"text":"但他本來就是產創條例"},{"start":3982.79,"end":3984.79,"text":"所以他本來就是"},{"start":3984.79,"end":3986.79,"text":"法律授權"},{"start":3986.79,"end":3988.79,"text":"那他本來就是"},{"start":3988.79,"end":3990.79,"text":"法律授權"},{"start":3990.79,"end":3992.79,"text":"那他本來就是"},{"start":3992.79,"end":3994.79,"text":"法律授權"},{"start":3994.79,"end":3996.79,"text":"那他本來就是"},{"start":3996.79,"end":3998.79,"text":"法律授權"},{"start":3998.79,"end":4000.79,"text":"那他本來就是"},{"start":4000.79,"end":4002.79,"text":"法律授權"},{"start":3975.56,"end":3977.56,"text":"法規命令的內容提上來"},{"start":3977.56,"end":3979.56,"text":"這邊在明訂"},{"start":3979.56,"end":3981.56,"text":"原來的授權條款"},{"start":3981.56,"end":3983.56,"text":"就會產生"},{"start":3983.56,"end":3985.56,"text":"雙重的規定"},{"start":3985.56,"end":3987.56,"text":"原來本來就有授權規定"},{"start":3987.56,"end":3989.56,"text":"那現在又"},{"start":3989.56,"end":3991.56,"text":"授權的法規命令內容"},{"start":3991.56,"end":3993.56,"text":"又搬上來模仿這邊"},{"start":3993.56,"end":3995.56,"text":"其他的條文再訂一次"},{"start":3995.56,"end":3997.56,"text":"所以我想在法的"},{"start":3997.56,"end":3999.56,"text":"體制上他有授權"},{"start":3999.56,"end":4001.56,"text":"有法規命令的性質"},{"start":4001.56,"end":4003.56,"text":"其實是"},{"start":4003.56,"end":4005.56,"text":"可不可以在條文上"},{"start":4005.56,"end":4007.56,"text":"再重新寫一次"},{"start":4007.56,"end":4009.56,"text":"那如果要重新寫一次"},{"start":4009.56,"end":4011.56,"text":"可能要同時去檢視一下當時的"},{"start":4011.56,"end":4013.56,"text":"授權規定"},{"start":4013.56,"end":4015.56,"text":"是不是要做同步的"},{"start":4015.56,"end":4017.56,"text":"一個調整"},{"start":4017.56,"end":4019.56,"text":"才不會有雙重的規定"},{"start":4019.56,"end":4021.56,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":4021.56,"end":4023.56,"text":"我聽六三四你所說法是保留"},{"start":4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":4253.28,"text":"包括到以前"},{"start":4253.28,"end":4255.28,"text":"斯卡羅的那部電影"},{"start":4255.28,"end":4257.28,"text":"還影響到我們"},{"start":4257.59,"end":4259.59,"text":"原住民非常重大"},{"start":4260.72,"end":4262.72,"text":"的一個侵害"},{"start":4263.03,"end":4265.03,"text":"所以"},{"start":4264.65,"end":4266.65,"text":"法國的宿命啊"},{"start":4268.22,"end":4270.22,"text":"在那法務部要檢討啊"},{"start":4271.26,"end":4273.26,"text":"第一個"},{"start":4272.7,"end":4274.7,"text":"當初法律授權要定這個"},{"start":4276.51,"end":4278.51,"text":"國家發展基金的"},{"start":4278.84,"end":4280.84,"text":"相關的這些"},{"start":4280.68,"end":4282.68,"text":"行政國家發展基金收支保管及應用辦法"},{"start":4285.59,"end":4287.59,"text":"當初並沒有"},{"start":4287.24,"end":4289.24,"text":"提出說像現在的這個"},{"start":4289.24,"end":4291.24,"text":"這個選項是"},{"start":4291.24,"end":4293.24,"text":"管理機關應建立責任中心"},{"start":4293.24,"end":4295.24,"text":"置入..."},{"start":4294.31,"end":4296.31,"text":"並沒有"},{"start":4296.12,"end":4298.12,"text":"當時的國發會"},{"start":4298.11,"end":4300.11,"text":"願意把它放在"},{"start":4300.47,"end":4302.47,"text":"這個管理辦法裡面"},{"start":4303.17,"end":4305.17,"text":"那現在要把它從"},{"start":4305.17,"end":4307.17,"text":"管理辦法提升為法律的"},{"start":4307.17,"end":4309.17,"text":"條文"},{"start":4309.11,"end":4311.11,"text":"哪一條規定說不行呢"},{"start":4313.06,"end":4315.06,"text":"在法律上"},{"start":4314.68,"end":4316.77,"text":"哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪...哪"},{"start":4317.94,"end":4319.219999999999,"text":"太多這種案例了"},{"start":4320.42,"end":4321.7,"text":"這種案例太多了"},{"start":4323.54,"end":4324.66,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":4326.48,"end":4330.24,"text":"國防會法務部在發言的時候也要謹慎"},{"start":4332.03,"end":4335.63,"text":"從法規命令提升為法律的太多了"},{"start":4336.99,"end":4341.79,"text":"甚至從行政規則提升為法律的條文太多了"},{"start":4342.64,"end":4344.64,"text":"所以這個部分大家這個"},{"start":4344.96,"end":4347.200000000001,"text":"我們現在是怎麼樣去讓"},{"start":4348.53,"end":4350.29,"text":"產業創新條例"},{"start":4350.76,"end":4353.56,"text":"然後設立這個國家發展基金"},{"start":4354.42,"end":4355.7,"text":"讓它能夠"},{"start":4356.35,"end":4358.910000000001,"text":"這個在執行上 管理上"},{"start":4359.7,"end":4361.78,"text":"然後真正能夠達到"},{"start":4362.56,"end":4364.64,"text":"產業創新的目的"},{"start":4366,"end":4368.56,"text":"加速產業創新加值"},{"start":4368.99,"end":4372.349999999999,"text":"促進經濟轉型及國家發展"},{"start":4374.03,"end":4375.3099999999995,"text":"然後不要"},{"start":4376.17,"end":4377.29,"text":"這個因為"},{"start":4379.4,"end":4380.2,"text":"這個"},{"start":4380.75,"end":4382.35,"text":"制度的不夠周全"},{"start":4382.87,"end":4385.99,"text":"然後就產生相關零日工資這樣的一個"},{"start":4386.52,"end":4387.240000000001,"text":"電影"},{"start":4388.05,"end":4389.33,"text":"這個跟文化創意"},{"start":4390.82,"end":4392.0199999999995,"text":"發展有什麼關係"},{"start":4392.34,"end":4395.219999999999,"text":"結果也沒有辦法達到產業創新加值"},{"start":4395.73,"end":4398.29,"text":"經濟轉型及國家的發展"},{"start":4399.41,"end":4402.37,"text":"所以這個部分大家共同的來去怎麼樣"},{"start":4402.37,"end":4403.65,"text":"讓這個條文"},{"start":4403.65,"end":4405.65,"text":"也許這個條文還不夠周全"},{"start":4407.19,"end":4408.71,"text":"你法務部或是其"},{"start":4409.3099999999995,"end":4410.19,"text":"國發會"},{"start":4410.19,"end":4411.549999999999,"text":"應該是要提出"},{"start":4411.549999999999,"end":4413.15,"text":"讓它更周全的條文"},{"start":4413.15,"end":4413.709999999999,"text":"而不是"},{"start":4414.24,"end":4415.28,"text":"而不是說不要"},{"start":4415.28,"end":4415.84,"text":"以上"},{"start":4416.4,"end":4418,"text":"中央病危之後 梁平煒"},{"start":4420.72,"end":4422,"text":"有黨的委員啊"},{"start":4422.74,"end":4424.26,"text":"常常掛在嘴巴說"},{"start":4424.26,"end":4426.26,"text":"立法院不是立法局啊"},{"start":4427.1,"end":4429.18,"text":"所以立法者要立法者的高度"},{"start":4429.6,"end":4431.6,"text":"老是把行政機關的施行細則"},{"start":4431.6,"end":4433.6,"text":"拿來放入法律的條文"},{"start":4433.6,"end":4435.6,"text":"放在法律的位階"},{"start":4435.93,"end":4438.01,"text":"無形中是把自己做小"},{"start":4438.22,"end":4439.18,"text":"難道立法院"},{"start":4439.18,"end":4441.18,"text":"一定要認同行政院的施行細則嗎"},{"start":4442.69,"end":4444.69,"text":"行政機關很多的施行細則"},{"start":4444.69,"end":4446.21,"text":"跟我們所制定的母法"},{"start":4446.21,"end":4447.25,"text":"是有憾格的"},{"start":4447.83,"end":4449.91,"text":"本席剛剛就提出批判"},{"start":4450.47,"end":4452.47,"text":"這個成如剛剛邱委員所說的"},{"start":4452.47,"end":4454.47,"text":"上周同樣在這個場景"},{"start":4454.69,"end":4456.7699999999995,"text":"農法條例要進行法律位階的修改"},{"start":4458.17,"end":4460.25,"text":"但是呢 同樣的"},{"start":4460.85,"end":4462.85,"text":"有民眾黨團的版本"},{"start":4462.85,"end":4464.85,"text":"他是把農法條例的施行細則"},{"start":4464.85,"end":4466.85,"text":"裡面的錯誤"},{"start":4466.55,"end":4468.55,"text":"原封不動的搬到母法來"},{"start":4468.55,"end":4470.55,"text":"造成了跟實況脫節"},{"start":4470.55,"end":4472.55,"text":"那個是什麼"},{"start":4472.55,"end":4474.55,"text":"農法條例當中"},{"start":4474.55,"end":4476.55,"text":"行政機關犯了一個錯誤"},{"start":4476.1,"end":4478.1,"text":"他的政定條文9-1當中"},{"start":4478.1,"end":4480.1,"text":"將農地"},{"start":4479.79,"end":4481.87,"text":"載化為種植用地"},{"start":4482.23,"end":4484.3099999999995,"text":"忽略了餘溫養殖畜牧"},{"start":4485.46,"end":4487.54,"text":"其他的用地也在農地用地的範疇"},{"start":4492.08,"end":4494.08,"text":"這些道路的施工"},{"start":4494.08,"end":4496.08,"text":"不能用磚瓦"},{"start":4496.08,"end":4498.08,"text":"必須用壤土"},{"start":4498.08,"end":4500.08,"text":"這完全是行政機關犯的錯誤"},{"start":4500.8099999999995,"end":4502.8099999999995,"text":"立法者沒有辦法去發現"},{"start":4502.8099999999995,"end":4504.8099999999995,"text":"行政機關在施行細則犯的錯誤"},{"start":4504.8099999999995,"end":4506.8099999999995,"text":"硬生生的還要把他拉到法律層面來"},{"start":4506.8099999999995,"end":4508.8099999999995,"text":"無意的就是把自己"},{"start":4508.8099999999995,"end":4510.8099999999995,"text":"做成了行政機關的立法局"},{"start":4510.8099999999995,"end":4512.8099999999995,"text":"本席剛剛的發言就是在批判"},{"start":4515.47,"end":4517.47,"text":"國發基金管理的收支細則當中"},{"start":4517.47,"end":4519.47,"text":"這個辦法當中啊"},{"start":4519.86,"end":4521.86,"text":"自己突兀的放入了一個責任中心制度"},{"start":4521.86,"end":4523.86,"text":"請主委你回去看一看你們這個細則的內容"},{"start":4526.46,"end":4528.46,"text":"責任中心這樣放到那裡去"},{"start":4528.46,"end":4530.46,"text":"你本身又不是營利機關"},{"start":4530.46,"end":4532.46,"text":"你只是要收支管理而已嘛"},{"start":4532.46,"end":4534.46,"text":"你這裡的責任彷彿是說"},{"start":4534.46,"end":4536.46,"text":"必須要對這些"},{"start":4536.46,"end":4538.46,"text":"的部門要去要求責任"},{"start":4538.46,"end":4540.46,"text":"但是你裡面的施行細則裡面"},{"start":4540.46,"end":4542.46,"text":"完全沒有提到責任中心制度當中"},{"start":4542.46,"end":4544.46,"text":"最重要的利潤"},{"start":4544.52,"end":4546.6,"text":"只達到收支的管理成本的討論而已"},{"start":4548.23,"end":4550.23,"text":"這就表示說施行細則本身"},{"start":4550.23,"end":4552.23,"text":"對於我們母法29條"},{"start":4552.23,"end":4554.23,"text":"30條要追求的目的"},{"start":4554.32,"end":4556.4,"text":"是有一定程度的憾"},{"start":4556.88,"end":4558.88,"text":"過去或許我們在批評國發基金"},{"start":4558.88,"end":4560.88,"text":"它的可能部分功能不彰"},{"start":4561.44,"end":4563.5199999999995,"text":"可能也是來自於你們這個管理辦法"},{"start":4564.47,"end":4566.55,"text":"定位有所不同"},{"start":4566.45,"end":4568.45,"text":"如果真的要徹底的去貫徹"},{"start":4568.45,"end":4569.45,"text":"責任中心制度"},{"start":4569.45,"end":4571.45,"text":"根本不是交由國發會"},{"start":4571.45,"end":4573.45,"text":"本身組成管理機關去管理"},{"start":4573.45,"end":4575.45,"text":"而是要另外獨立出來"},{"start":4575.45,"end":4577.45,"text":"成了一個投資機構"},{"start":4578.28,"end":4580.28,"text":"成為一個獨立的投資機構來進行"},{"start":4580.28,"end":4582.28,"text":"才有辦法進行這個責任中心"},{"start":4582.28,"end":4584.28,"text":"所以不要以為說我們看了"},{"start":4584.28,"end":4586.28,"text":"細則"},{"start":4586.28,"end":4588.28,"text":"細則就是對的細則就是相的"},{"start":4588.28,"end":4590.28,"text":"立法者要立法者的高度"},{"start":4590.28,"end":4592.28,"text":"當我們看到細則當中錯誤援用一下概念的時候"},{"start":4592.28,"end":4594.28,"text":"要勇於提出來"},{"start":4594.28,"end":4596.28,"text":"在他的母條當中去改正"},{"start":4596.28,"end":4598.28,"text":"結果不是"},{"start":4598.28,"end":4600.28,"text":"本期這兩年多來看到民眾黨的提案"},{"start":4599.68,"end":4601.76,"text":"就是只有一章"},{"start":4601.5199999999995,"end":4603.5199999999995,"text":"把詩情細則拉到母法的位階"},{"start":4603.5199999999995,"end":4605.5199999999995,"text":"為什麼要這樣做我待會再講給你聽"},{"start":4605.5199999999995,"end":4607.5199999999995,"text":"然後"},{"start":4607.5199999999995,"end":4609.5199999999995,"text":"在這個新政的要嘛就照抄"},{"start":4609.5199999999995,"end":4611.5199999999995,"text":"偏偏的又不照抄"},{"start":4611.5199999999995,"end":4613.5199999999995,"text":"要放進什麼條文"},{"start":4613.5199999999995,"end":4615.5199999999995,"text":"我舉例像他們31條之一"},{"start":4615.5199999999995,"end":4617.5199999999995,"text":"他要放進什麼"},{"start":4617.5199999999995,"end":4619.5199999999995,"text":"他要放進一個屬於公視委員"},{"start":4619.5199999999995,"end":4621.5199999999995,"text":"審查委員會的制度"},{"start":4621.53,"end":4623.53,"text":"原來行政機關在授權之下"},{"start":4623.53,"end":4625.53,"text":"法律授權之下他做一個行政管理"},{"start":4626.46,"end":4628.46,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":4628.46,"end":4630.46,"text":"他們居然要成立一個"},{"start":4630.46,"end":4632.46,"text":"所謂的由立法院推舉社會公正人士"},{"start":4632.46,"end":4634.46,"text":"8至10人組成一個審查委員會"},{"start":4634.46,"end":4636.46,"text":"來審查什麼"},{"start":4636.46,"end":4638.46,"text":"審查當中的學者專家的名單"},{"start":4638.46,"end":4640.46,"text":"要經過這個各黨派"},{"start":4640.46,"end":4642.46,"text":"提出來的審查委員會來審查名單"},{"start":4643.44,"end":4645.44,"text":"這明明白白的就是一個"},{"start":4645.44,"end":4647.44,"text":"造成今天公視"},{"start":4647.44,"end":4649.44,"text":"自愛難行的翻版"},{"start":4649.19,"end":4650.19,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":4650.19,"end":4652.19,"text":"他們今天的再修正動議我剛剛看了傻眼"},{"start":4653.32,"end":4655.32,"text":"他們把這個審查委員會拿掉了"},{"start":4655.3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擅奪行政權"},{"start":4714.76,"end":4716.76,"text":"所以我們這裡我們看到啊"},{"start":4716.76,"end":4718.76,"text":"我們行政機關的說明很清楚嘛"},{"start":4718.76,"end":4720.76,"text":"本來一個法律就有它的一個"},{"start":4720.76,"end":4722.76,"text":"立法規範的層級化"},{"start":4723.98,"end":4726.0599999999995,"text":"什麼叫層級化"},{"start":4725.48,"end":4727.48,"text":"立法者作為一個立法規範的最上位者"},{"start":4727.48,"end":4729.48,"text":"我們定出了目標"},{"start":4729.48,"end":4731.48,"text":"我們定出了框架"},{"start":4731.74,"end":4733.74,"text":"授權給行政機關去執行"},{"start":4733.74,"end":4735.74,"text":"行政機關依求他行政執行的結果的良與好壞"},{"start":4735.74,"end":4737.74,"text":"接受選民社會的公平"},{"start":4737.74,"end":4739.74,"text":"透過選舉來更替"},{"start":4741.01,"end":4743.01,"text":"如果說國會的多數黨"},{"start":4743.01,"end":4745.01,"text":"沒辦法取得行政權"},{"start":4745.01,"end":4747.01,"text":"他就必須接受"},{"start":4747.01,"end":4749.01,"text":"行政權的表現之後的結果"},{"start":4749.01,"end":4751.01,"text":"由選民來裁判"},{"start":4751.01,"end":4753.01,"text":"透過選舉來決定行政權的移轉"},{"start":4753.01,"end":4755.01,"text":"而不是像過去這兩年以來"},{"start":4755.01,"end":4757.01,"text":"仗有國會的多數"},{"start":4757.01,"end":4759.01,"text":"不但善改我們法律未接的條文"},{"start":4759.01,"end":4761.01,"text":"以國會多數強制將行政權當中"},{"start":4761.01,"end":4763.01,"text":"屬於行政權應該自行規定的東西"},{"start":4763.01,"end":4765.01,"text":"拉到母法來"},{"start":4765.01,"end":4767.01,"text":"說是好聽提高層級"},{"start":4767.01,"end":4769.01,"text":"其實呢"},{"start":4769.09,"end":4771.09,"text":"就是因為沒有行政權"},{"start":4771.09,"end":4773.09,"text":"國會的多數"},{"start":4773.09,"end":4775.09,"text":"是沒有辦法去影響實際的施政內容的"},{"start":4775.09,"end":4777.09,"text":"他只有透過立法"},{"start":4777.09,"end":4779.09,"text":"將行政權的施行細則"},{"start":4779.09,"end":4781.09,"text":"的層次東西拉上來規定"},{"start":4781.09,"end":4783.09,"text":"然後再挾持多數"},{"start":4783.09,"end":4785.09,"text":"將一些荒謬的規定塞進去"},{"start":4785.09,"end":4787.09,"text":"強逼行政權要接受"},{"start":4787.09,"end":4789.09,"text":"這就是過去這兩年多來"},{"start":4789.09,"end":4791.09,"text":"我們行政立法的最大亂源"},{"start":4791.72,"end":4793.72,"text":"就是行政立法國會權跟行政權"},{"start":4793.72,"end":4795.72,"text":"沒有各自遵守應有的本分"},{"start":4795.72,"end":4797.72,"text":"國會權沒有行政權"},{"start":4797.72,"end":4799.72,"text":"但是要用國會的多數來"},{"start":4799.72,"end":4801.72,"text":"擅奪行政權"},{"start":4801.72,"end":4803.72,"text":"把行政機關未必完善的行政命令法規"},{"start":4803.72,"end":4805.72,"text":"執法提上來作為母法"},{"start":4805.72,"end":4807.72,"text":"然後又不是全盤照接受"},{"start":4807.72,"end":4809.72,"text":"又在裡面加入一些莫名其妙的規定"},{"start":4809.72,"end":4811.72,"text":"先是看到你們31條之一"},{"start":4811.72,"end":4813.72,"text":"先是有一個公視委員會的版本"},{"start":4813.72,"end":4815.72,"text":"然後又提出一個各黨派"},{"start":4815.72,"end":4817.72,"text":"至少一起的版本"},{"start":4817.72,"end":4819.72,"text":"目的是什麼目的是要介入行政權"},{"start":4819.72,"end":4821.8,"text":"然後接近會委員的名單"},{"start":4822.14,"end":4824.14,"text":"就是要介入國發基金會審查管理委員的名單"},{"start":4824.14,"end":4826.14,"text":"這個管理委員"},{"start":4826.14,"end":4828.14,"text":"你要介入可以啊"},{"start":4828.14,"end":4830.14,"text":"取得行政權就是歸你管"},{"start":4830.14,"end":4832.14,"text":"好壞成敗你來負責"},{"start":4832.14,"end":4834.14,"text":"像現在責任不輕"},{"start":4833.94,"end":4835.94,"text":"又是沒有取得行政權"},{"start":4835.94,"end":4837.94,"text":"又要干涉行政權"},{"start":4837.94,"end":4839.94,"text":"未來行政的結果到底責任歸屬是誰"},{"start":4839.94,"end":4841.94,"text":"這就是憲法法庭對於我們過去這兩年多來"},{"start":4841.94,"end":4843.94,"text":"國會多數"},{"start":4845.26,"end":4847.26,"text":"違憲亂政"},{"start":4847.26,"end":4849.26,"text":"獲權的一個最重要的一個根本的核心批評"},{"start":4849.26,"end":4851.26,"text":"所以請國外再看一下"},{"start":4851.26,"end":4853.26,"text":"你們要回去去檢討"},{"start":4853.26,"end":4855.26,"text":"你們的施行細則對嗎"},{"start":4854.6,"end":4856.68,"text":"你們施行細則把一個錯誤的責任中心概念放進去對嗎"},{"start":4858.68,"end":4860.68,"text":"但是尊重行政權"},{"start":4860.68,"end":4862.68,"text":"因為我們最後是以你們成敗來問責的"},{"start":4862.68,"end":4864.68,"text":"不是以你本身"},{"start":4864.68,"end":4866.68,"text":"規範你自己內部調度的規則來問責的"},{"start":4866.68,"end":4868.68,"text":"你的規則就算不盡理想"},{"start":4868.68,"end":4870.68,"text":"就算是引用有錯誤"},{"start":4870.68,"end":4872.68,"text":"但是我們是以最後的責任來問責"},{"start":4872.68,"end":4874.68,"text":"但是我們認為沒有必要"},{"start":4874.68,"end":4876.68,"text":"把一個屬於行政權內部規範的事項"},{"start":4876.68,"end":4878.68,"text":"提升到一個母法立法者的高度"},{"start":4878.68,"end":4880.68,"text":"而且又不是全盤接受"},{"start":4880.68,"end":4882.68,"text":"還要錯誤的加入一些莫名其妙的制度規則"},{"start":4882.68,"end":4884.68,"text":"以上"},{"start":4886.25,"end":4888.33,"text":"謝謝中央媒體委員"},{"start":4889.66,"end":4891.74,"text":"嗯 我想問"},{"start":4891.81,"end":4893.89,"text":"立法院各政黨或者是各個委員大家都"},{"start":4896.51,"end":4902.51,"text":"為了怎麼樣能夠更善盡其在法律方面"},{"start":4902.51,"end":4904.51,"text":"讓行政部門可以更好的執行"},{"start":4905.8,"end":4909.88,"text":"而且社會層面也能夠有更好的一個成效"},{"start":4911.28,"end":4913.28,"text":"這個是非常重要"},{"start":4913.28,"end":4915.28,"text":"但是我絕對反對"},{"start":4914.79,"end":4916.87,"text":"我覺得反對是以政治化術"},{"start":4918.27,"end":4920.35,"text":"再討論"},{"start":4919.72,"end":4921.8,"text":"呃 法案"},{"start":4921.49,"end":4923.49,"text":"的這個方向"},{"start":4923.49,"end":4925.49,"text":"這第一點我提出"},{"start":4925.86,"end":4927.86,"text":"對於取得行政權就歸你管"},{"start":4927.86,"end":4929.86,"text":"這句話我也充分不認同"},{"start":4930.57,"end":4932.65,"text":"因為我們是一個民主國家"},{"start":4933.56,"end":4935.64,"text":"任何的委員或者是政黨"},{"start":4938.79,"end":4940.87,"text":"行政部門"},{"start":4940.15,"end":4942.23,"text":"都得提出"},{"start":4941.86,"end":4943.94,"text":"各自認為更加好的一個"},{"start":4946.16,"end":4948.16,"text":"法律出來"},{"start":4948.16,"end":4950.16,"text":"這就是我們在立法院"},{"start":4949.8,"end":4951.8,"text":"看著明末到了立法院"},{"start":4951.8,"end":4953.8,"text":"要怎麼樣去立法"},{"start":4954,"end":4956,"text":"這是我們看到的"},{"start":4956,"end":4958,"text":"而且是我們必須要做的"},{"start":4958.31,"end":4960.39,"text":"那接下來我們要看今天"},{"start":4961.25,"end":4963.33,"text":"當行政權"},{"start":4963.32,"end":4965.32,"text":"在目前的法律當中"},{"start":4965.32,"end":4967.32,"text":"或者是你的"},{"start":4967.32,"end":4969.32,"text":"辦法當中"},{"start":4968.57,"end":4970.57,"text":"沒有辦法未盡完善時"},{"start":4970.57,"end":4972.57,"text":"那我們就有這個責任來提出"},{"start":4974.17,"end":4976.25,"text":"任何人提出大家都應該給予"},{"start":4978.16,"end":4980.24,"text":"共同的一個討論"},{"start":4980.55,"end":4982.63,"text":"這是我一再強調"},{"start":4982.93,"end":4984.93,"text":"我一再強調"},{"start":4984.93,"end":4986.93,"text":"在法律方面更不應當"},{"start":4986.93,"end":4988.93,"text":"任何一個人執政"},{"start":4988.93,"end":4990.93,"text":"更不應當以政治化術"},{"start":4990.93,"end":4992.93,"text":"來作為討論的一個"},{"start":4992.93,"end":4994.93,"text":"軌道跟結論"},{"start":4995.42,"end":4997.5,"text":"所以因此我要請教"},{"start":4998.02,"end":5002.1,"text":"在提出這樣子的一個法條出來的時候"},{"start":5002.64,"end":5004.72,"text":"行政部門跟宏喆委討論過幾次"},{"start":5006.69,"end":5008.7699999999995,"text":"請教"},{"start":5008.01,"end":5010.09,"text":"有沒有討論過"},{"start":5011.07,"end":5013.07,"text":"這個今天以前討論過幾次"},{"start":5013.07,"end":5015.07,"text":"請教"},{"start":5036.81,"end":5038.89,"text":"這都是非常的珍貴"},{"start":5038.91,"end":5040.99,"text":"所以如果說在中文討論之後"},{"start":5042.74,"end":5044.82,"text":"都認為是有幫助的"},{"start":5045.72,"end":5047.8,"text":"行政部門也認為可以接受的"},{"start":5048.46,"end":5050.54,"text":"那就不應當今天有這些政治化術"},{"start":5052.3,"end":5054.38,"text":"所以我是認為"},{"start":5054.29,"end":5056.29,"text":"行政部門您提出"},{"start":5056.29,"end":5058.29,"text":"你是正統的"},{"start":5058.85,"end":5060.85,"text":"但是你現在似乎又有不一樣的意見"},{"start":5062.85,"end":5064.85,"text":"你應該提出你的論述"},{"start":5064.85,"end":5066.85,"text":"來說服來溝通"},{"start":5066.85,"end":5068.85,"text":"這才是對的"},{"start":5068.85,"end":5070.85,"text":"這才是立法院在審查法案"},{"start":5071.88,"end":5073.96,"text":"最重要的一個精髓"},{"start":5074.12,"end":5076.2,"text":"以上是我的建議"},{"start":5077.31,"end":5079.39,"text":"謝謝楊淑儀"},{"start":5080.69,"end":5082.7699999999995,"text":"有沒有溝通跟討論"},{"start":5083.69,"end":5085.7699999999995,"text":"這個國安會特別注意"},{"start":5087.49,"end":5089.57,"text":"黨團或個別委員都有提案修正的權利"},{"start":5091.76,"end":5093.84,"text":"提案你們去跟他說明"},{"start":5093.97,"end":5096.05,"text":"因為剛才討論了"},{"start":5095.44,"end":5097.5199999999995,"text":"他提案不見得其他的委員可以接受"},{"start":5098.98,"end":5101.0599999999995,"text":"你們同時也要跟其他委員"},{"start":5101.34,"end":5103.34,"text":"說某某委員某某黨團有這個提案"},{"start":5103.34,"end":5105.34,"text":"你要讓委員知道有這個提案"},{"start":5107.65,"end":5109.73,"text":"那不是說你單方面就可以承諾"},{"start":5111.62,"end":5113.62,"text":"你們是來備詢"},{"start":5113.62,"end":5115.62,"text":"你們審查法案是你們來提供一些意見"},{"start":5117.26,"end":5119.34,"text":"最後"},{"start":5118.45,"end":5120.53,"text":"審查法案定奪是在委員會到院會"},{"start":5122.85,"end":5124.85,"text":"所以你不能貿然承諾"},{"start":5124.85,"end":5126.85,"text":"而且你的立場要抓穩"},{"start":5126.85,"end":5128.85,"text":"要堅定"},{"start":5129.73,"end":5131.8099999999995,"text":"所以我還是覺得這個"},{"start":5132.0199999999995,"end":5134.0199999999995,"text":"法律的這個修正是非常嚴肅的事情"},{"start":5136.0199999999995,"end":5138.0199999999995,"text":"我是有感而發"},{"start":5138.3,"end":5140.3,"text":"這個紀念度就算到8月都還沒有過"},{"start":5140.3,"end":5142.3,"text":"這時尚未見"},{"start":5143.97,"end":5146.05,"text":"國人對立法院預算審查的嚴當"},{"start":5147.8,"end":5149.88,"text":"記得我們"},{"start":5149.69,"end":5151.7699999999995,"text":"非常覺得"},{"start":5151.29,"end":5153.37,"text":"在以所說的地方"},{"start":5153.94,"end":5155.94,"text":"這個紀念度預算原本在去年就要完成"},{"start":5155.94,"end":5157.94,"text":"8月還沒過"},{"start":5159.66,"end":5161.74,"text":"我很難去跟這個民眾去說明"},{"start":5162.9,"end":5164.98,"text":"這個"},{"start":5165.06,"end":5167.14,"text":"立法院這個該檢討的地方很多"},{"start":5168.3,"end":5170.38,"text":"因此如果要救誰的話"},{"start":5171.75,"end":5173.83,"text":"立法院本來是負責審查國家預算"},{"start":5175.26,"end":5177.34,"text":"國家預算審查本來是立法院天職"},{"start":5179.47,"end":5181.47,"text":"有這個預算審查"},{"start":5181.47,"end":5183.47,"text":"如果你要有相關制度"},{"start":5183.47,"end":5185.47,"text":"更按照你的邏輯"},{"start":5184.94,"end":5186.94,"text":"我從立法院"},{"start":5186.94,"end":5188.94,"text":"委員資源行事法"},{"start":5188.94,"end":5190.94,"text":"立法院各委員會的組織法"},{"start":5190.94,"end":5192.94,"text":"相關對預算審查的規定"},{"start":5192.55,"end":5194.55,"text":"從委員會審查到查緯審查到院會的法案審查"},{"start":5194.55,"end":5196.55,"text":"都有相關的審查規定"},{"start":5200.9,"end":5202.9,"text":"但是今天為什麼發生"},{"start":5202.9,"end":5204.9,"text":"這個一直延宕到8個月"},{"start":5205.95,"end":5208.03,"text":"今年都預算都沒辦法審"},{"start":5208.5,"end":5210.58,"text":"而且沒辦法審查玩具"},{"start":5210.74,"end":5212.74,"text":"如果按照你這個邏輯"},{"start":5212.74,"end":5214.74,"text":"我們是不是立法院也要設立一個"},{"start":5214.74,"end":5216.74,"text":"預算審查所謂的責任中心制度"},{"start":5218.68,"end":5220.76,"text":"預算如果延宕要不要就此"},{"start":5223.41,"end":5225.41,"text":"就此從委員會的這個委員開始"},{"start":5225.41,"end":5227.41,"text":"從委員會的這個章委開始"},{"start":5228.26,"end":5230.34,"text":"為什麼不拍"},{"start":5230.13,"end":5232.21,"text":"為什麼不延宕"},{"start":5233.7699999999995,"end":5235.7699999999995,"text":"所以如果說你一個制度"},{"start":5235.7699999999995,"end":5237.7699999999995,"text":"改變會影響整個"},{"start":5237.7699999999995,"end":5239.7699999999995,"text":"大法律教會改變"},{"start":5241.98,"end":5244.0599999999995,"text":"這個不是那麼簡單的問題"},{"start":5245.93,"end":5248.01,"text":"覺得"},{"start":5247.21,"end":5249.21,"text":"要以審慎去面對這個"},{"start":5249.21,"end":5251.21,"text":"我們沒有"},{"start":5252.1,"end":5254.1,"text":"認真去審查"},{"start":5254.1,"end":5256.1,"text":"因為這個提案都是民眾黨的提案"},{"start":5256.1,"end":5258.1,"text":"不然是29條的修正"},{"start":5258.1,"end":5260.1,"text":"跟30條之一的新增"},{"start":5261.84,"end":5263.84,"text":"這個我想請教一下章委"},{"start":5263.84,"end":5265.84,"text":"那個宏一"},{"start":5265.72,"end":5267.8,"text":"因為這個都是貴黨的提案"},{"start":5268.8099999999995,"end":5270.8099999999995,"text":"你一方面要成立管理機關"},{"start":5270.8099999999995,"end":5272.8099999999995,"text":"要建立責任中心制度"},{"start":5272.8099999999995,"end":5274.8099999999995,"text":"一方面你又要新設"},{"start":5274.8099999999995,"end":5276.8099999999995,"text":"一個所謂國家發展經"},{"start":5276.8099999999995,"end":5278.8099999999995,"text":"管理委員"},{"start":5278.88,"end":5280.88,"text":"管理委員會的功能也是要管理"},{"start":5280.88,"end":5282.88,"text":"國發金收視保管的運用"},{"start":5283.94,"end":5285.94,"text":"那你這個責任中心制度"},{"start":5285.94,"end":5287.94,"text":"這個在執法裡面就有訂定"},{"start":5287.94,"end":5289.94,"text":"它的功能也是要確保"},{"start":5290.9,"end":5292.98,"text":"這個收入控制成本"},{"start":5293.83,"end":5295.83,"text":"跟你們所謂30條之一"},{"start":5295.83,"end":5297.83,"text":"你們新增的"},{"start":5299.2,"end":5301.28,"text":"國家發展經管理委員會"},{"start":5301.68,"end":5303.76,"text":"功能你們是怎麼去區分"},{"start":5304.48,"end":5306.5599999999995,"text":"未接怎麼樣去做做區分"},{"start":5307.42,"end":5309.42,"text":"然後你們就職制度"},{"start":5309.42,"end":5311.42,"text":"你們到底有沒有一個完整的想法"},{"start":5311.42,"end":5313.42,"text":"因為是貴黨的提案"},{"start":5313.42,"end":5315.42,"text":"我想貴黨會比較清楚"},{"start":5315.42,"end":5317.42,"text":"請教一下宏委員"},{"start":5317.93,"end":5319.93,"text":"可能各位對國發基金的一個"},{"start":5319.93,"end":5321.93,"text":"管理委員會跟投審會"},{"start":5321.93,"end":5323.93,"text":"是不清楚的"},{"start":5323.93,"end":5325.93,"text":"管委會基本上是一個"},{"start":5325.93,"end":5327.93,"text":"我已經在這邊14年了"},{"start":5327.93,"end":5329.93,"text":"沒有說"},{"start":5330.17,"end":5332.25,"text":"好那"},{"start":5334.45,"end":5336.53,"text":"提訴"},{"start":5335.67,"end":5337.67,"text":"我沒有說我自己很懂"},{"start":5337.67,"end":5339.67,"text":"我只是跟你們解釋"},{"start":5342.53,"end":5344.53,"text":"管理委員會基本上就是一個"},{"start":5344.53,"end":5346.53,"text":"committee"},{"start":5345.96,"end":5347.96,"text":"所以它底下來講的話"},{"start":5347.96,"end":5349.96,"text":"負責一些重大的決策"},{"start":5349.96,"end":5351.96,"text":"像我們在投審會裡面所投資"},{"start":5351.96,"end":5353.96,"text":"審查的東西如果委員是同意"},{"start":5353.96,"end":5355.96,"text":"投資那個案子或融資的"},{"start":5355.96,"end":5357.96,"text":"那是送到管理委員會再去做"},{"start":5357.96,"end":5359.96,"text":"確認做confirm"},{"start":5359.96,"end":5361.96,"text":"所以今天只是說"},{"start":5361.96,"end":5363.96,"text":"在我們這一個過去"},{"start":5363.54,"end":5365.54,"text":"不管是東北光電如新光電裡頭"},{"start":5365.54,"end":5367.54,"text":"很多都是在管理委員會"},{"start":5367.54,"end":5369.54,"text":"在做這種部門的重大"},{"start":5369.54,"end":5371.54,"text":"決策的時候"},{"start":5371.54,"end":5373.54,"text":"沒有像我們投審會裡頭的事宜者"},{"start":5373.54,"end":5375.54,"text":"那樣子的嚴謹"},{"start":5376.1,"end":5378.1,"text":"那基本上來講它就是一個"},{"start":5378.1,"end":5380.1,"text":"追認或者是一個行政"},{"start":5380.1,"end":5382.1,"text":"部門的機關的參與"},{"start":5382.1,"end":5384.1,"text":"所以我們是希望把這樣子的"},{"start":5384.1,"end":5386.1,"text":"一個未接的辦法拉到母法來"},{"start":5387.37,"end":5389.45,"text":"讓它後面"},{"start":5389.34,"end":5391.34,"text":"不管是在將來我們立法院"},{"start":5391.34,"end":5393.34,"text":"或者是一些東西要做調查的時候"},{"start":5393.34,"end":5395.34,"text":"甚至它違反旋轉門條款"},{"start":5395.34,"end":5397.34,"text":"它才會有一個"},{"start":5397.34,"end":5399.34,"text":"這樣子的一個罰則或者是一個"},{"start":5399.34,"end":5401.34,"text":"責任的追蹤的一個依據"},{"start":5402.44,"end":5404.44,"text":"所以基本上來講我們認為"},{"start":5404.44,"end":5406.44,"text":"這個東西就如同這個一直很濃發一樣"},{"start":5406.44,"end":5408.44,"text":"你如果放在管理辦法"},{"start":5409.04,"end":5411.04,"text":"它就沒有這些行政的一個罰則"},{"start":5411.04,"end":5413.04,"text":"所以它繼續把它拉到"},{"start":5413.04,"end":5415.04,"text":"法的這個未接來做處理"},{"start":5415.04,"end":5417.04,"text":"所以它只是一個配套"},{"start":5417.04,"end":5419.04,"text":"因為我們後面來講比如說將來有出事了"},{"start":5419.04,"end":5421.04,"text":"有一些的這個案子投資有疑慮的"},{"start":5421.04,"end":5423.04,"text":"有弊案的"},{"start":5423.04,"end":5425.04,"text":"那你有一些調查委員會的時候"},{"start":5425.04,"end":5427.04,"text":"它才可以有職權去把這些"},{"start":5427.04,"end":5429.04,"text":"當時"},{"start":5428.26,"end":5432.26,"text":"審查的投資會議紀錄這些東西做開封"},{"start":5432.26,"end":5434.26,"text":"就是為了讓我們國發基金的管理更健全"},{"start":5434.26,"end":5436.26,"text":"不要說每次出事了"},{"start":5436.26,"end":5438.26,"text":"那他們的話可能就會"},{"start":5438.26,"end":5442.26,"text":"被迫莫名其妙的一個管理的一個罪責"},{"start":5442.26,"end":5444.26,"text":"只是當時很大的出發點"},{"start":5444.26,"end":5446.26,"text":"所以當時我們提出這樣的東西"},{"start":5446.26,"end":5448.26,"text":"也跟它來回來回來回"},{"start":5448.44,"end":5450.44,"text":"也找了法治司也找這個東西"},{"start":5450.44,"end":5452.44,"text":"討論了好幾次"},{"start":5452.44,"end":5454.44,"text":"所以今天來講的話也就是說"},{"start":5454.44,"end":5456.44,"text":"把雙方都可以接受的版本"},{"start":5456.44,"end":5458.44,"text":"寫成再修正動議"},{"start":5458.38,"end":5460.46,"text":"就這樣子很簡單的一個溝通的一個"},{"start":5462.13,"end":5464.21,"text":"理由跟程序跟各位委員說明"},{"start":5466.77,"end":5468.85,"text":"再修正動議並沒有跟"},{"start":5469.86,"end":5471.86,"text":"並沒有調整"},{"start":5471.86,"end":5473.86,"text":"跟原來的提案是沒有更動"},{"start":5473.86,"end":5475.86,"text":"對因為它那個時候的話"},{"start":5475.86,"end":5477.86,"text":"就是它對我們的再修正第29條"},{"start":5477.86,"end":5479.86,"text":"是沒有更動"},{"start":5479.86,"end":5481.86,"text":"因為它就是所謂的同意嘛"},{"start":5481.86,"end":5483.86,"text":"所以我就沒有再去更動"},{"start":5483.86,"end":5485.86,"text":"主要是針對"},{"start":5485.28,"end":5487.28,"text":"像剛剛這個30條之一"},{"start":5487.28,"end":5489.28,"text":"我們也認為"},{"start":5489.48,"end":5491.48,"text":"也遵循國發會跟他們一起討論的結果"},{"start":5491.48,"end":5493.48,"text":"就是認為說"},{"start":5493.48,"end":5495.48,"text":"我們不應該用這麼嚴謹"},{"start":5495.48,"end":5497.48,"text":"怕他的將來的管理會難產"},{"start":5497.48,"end":5499.48,"text":"會影響到投審會的運作"},{"start":5499.48,"end":5501.48,"text":"所以我們才"},{"start":5501.48,"end":5503.48,"text":"變成是這樣子的規範"},{"start":5503.94,"end":5505.94,"text":"讓外部的專家讓各政黨中心"},{"start":5505.94,"end":5507.94,"text":"有充分進去管委會了解"},{"start":5508.99,"end":5511.07,"text":"因為管委會它只是一個追加confirm"},{"start":5512.05,"end":5514.13,"text":"這樣子的一個責任的機制而已"},{"start":5515.87,"end":5517.87,"text":"那我請問一下洪委員所謂的責任中心"},{"start":5517.87,"end":5519.87,"text":"跟你30條之一的"},{"start":5519.87,"end":5521.87,"text":"國家發展基金管理委員會"},{"start":5523.61,"end":5525.69,"text":"它的官方區分"},{"start":5525.39,"end":5527.39,"text":"他責任中心只是在他當時的細則辦法裡頭說"},{"start":5527.39,"end":5529.39,"text":"你這個管委會"},{"start":5529.39,"end":5531.39,"text":"應該對各個不管投資"},{"start":5531.39,"end":5533.39,"text":"因為投資裡頭可能還包含台三的"},{"start":5536.12,"end":5538.12,"text":"跟投的天使投資的"},{"start":5538.12,"end":5540.12,"text":"這每一個基金的規模"},{"start":5540.12,"end":5542.12,"text":"像我們現在有7項"},{"start":5542.12,"end":5544.12,"text":"可能還會有8項的百億的投資"},{"start":5544.12,"end":5546.12,"text":"這每一類的投資標的不同"},{"start":5546.12,"end":5548.12,"text":"管理會希望能夠了解"},{"start":5549.64,"end":5551.64,"text":"各個這些管理基金投融資的"},{"start":5551.64,"end":5553.64,"text":"績效的狀況"},{"start":5553.64,"end":5555.64,"text":"那明確知道比如說這個基金的管理辦法"},{"start":5555.64,"end":5557.64,"text":"這個負責的這個PM"},{"start":5557.64,"end":5559.64,"text":"是不是有這樣子的一個"},{"start":5559.64,"end":5561.64,"text":"達到當時的效果而已"},{"start":5561.64,"end":5563.64,"text":"所以他只是把這個當時的位階"},{"start":5563.64,"end":5565.64,"text":"那國外當時也同意說"},{"start":5565.64,"end":5567.64,"text":"這個東西把它鳴訂上來"},{"start":5567.64,"end":5569.64,"text":"也沒有什麼樣子"},{"start":5569.64,"end":5571.64,"text":"自愛難行的地方"},{"start":5571.64,"end":5573.64,"text":"所以我們才是說OK那就是這樣子"},{"start":5574.94,"end":5577.0199999999995,"text":"第一條現在就有問題"},{"start":5576.93,"end":5579.01,"text":"那個是中央聯合眾議員"},{"start":5580.35,"end":5583.39,"text":"其實我們看了這兩年多來的"},{"start":5583.39,"end":5585.39,"text":"在野黨團的提案"},{"start":5585.39,"end":5587.39,"text":"其實就是把原來剛剛所說的"},{"start":5588.64,"end":5590.64,"text":"這個所謂的國發基金收支管"},{"start":5590.64,"end":5592.64,"text":"保管及運用辦法"},{"start":5592.64,"end":5594.64,"text":"它這裡面呢"},{"start":5594.64,"end":5596.64,"text":"第一條當然就是抄我們"},{"start":5596.64,"end":5598.64,"text":"母法第一"},{"start":5598.04,"end":5600.04,"text":"第二條"},{"start":5600.04,"end":5602.04,"text":"第三十條"},{"start":5602.04,"end":5604.04,"text":"但是呢他又加了第二條"},{"start":5604.04,"end":5606.04,"text":"要根據預算法規定是個特種基金"},{"start":5606.04,"end":5608.04,"text":"那其實"},{"start":5608.04,"end":5610.04,"text":"在母法當中"},{"start":5610.04,"end":5612.04,"text":"我們另訂一個管理辦法"},{"start":5612.04,"end":5614.04,"text":"他其實要成立一個叫管理會的"},{"start":5614.04,"end":5616.04,"text":"一個組織"},{"start":5616.04,"end":5618.04,"text":"這個管理會的組織大概哪些功能"},{"start":5618.04,"end":5620.04,"text":"基本上就是目前我們看到的"},{"start":5620.04,"end":5622.04,"text":"從三十一條之一"},{"start":5622.04,"end":5624.04,"text":"到後面"},{"start":5623.24,"end":5625.24,"text":"全部的就是把這個管理辦法當中"},{"start":5625.24,"end":5627.24,"text":"這個管理會的"},{"start":5627.24,"end":5629.24,"text":"內容全部搬上來"},{"start":5629.24,"end":5631.24,"text":"三十條之八"},{"start":5631.24,"end":5633.24,"text":"從之一到之八"},{"start":5633.24,"end":5635.24,"text":"而且還不是完全抄喔"},{"start":5635.24,"end":5637.24,"text":"因為我們的管理辦法當中呢"},{"start":5637.24,"end":5639.24,"text":"一共有幾條"},{"start":5639.24,"end":5641.24,"text":"一共有十九條"},{"start":5641.24,"end":5643.24,"text":"扣掉一些基本的描述"},{"start":5643.24,"end":5645.24,"text":"法規的描述"},{"start":5645.24,"end":5647.24,"text":"大概內容就是差不多"},{"start":5647.24,"end":5649.24,"text":"但是最重要的他要放哪一部分"},{"start":5649.24,"end":5651.24,"text":"要放三十條之一的"},{"start":5651.96,"end":5653.96,"text":"管理會底下"},{"start":5653.96,"end":5655.96,"text":"他有專家學者"},{"start":5655.96,"end":5657.96,"text":"他在第二項的時候特別強調"},{"start":5657.96,"end":5659.96,"text":"專家學者產生程序"},{"start":5659.96,"end":5661.96,"text":"要又再創造一個審查委員會"},{"start":5663.84,"end":5665.84,"text":"簡單講啊"},{"start":5665.84,"end":5667.84,"text":"整個意圖就是要改寫我們"},{"start":5667.84,"end":5669.84,"text":"基本上屬於執法的管理辦法"},{"start":5669.84,"end":5671.84,"text":"管理辦法"},{"start":5671.84,"end":5673.84,"text":"去創設了一個管理會"},{"start":5673.84,"end":5675.84,"text":"不是管委會"},{"start":5675.84,"end":5677.84,"text":"管理會"},{"start":5677.84,"end":5679.84,"text":"而這個管理會的組成"},{"start":5679.84,"end":5681.84,"text":"很重要的有一個"},{"start":5681.84,"end":5683.84,"text":"所謂的專家學者四到六人"},{"start":5683.84,"end":5685.84,"text":"要參與這個管理會的委員"},{"start":5685.84,"end":5687.84,"text":"這是目前國發基金"},{"start":5687.84,"end":5689.84,"text":"管理會的核心"},{"start":5689.84,"end":5691.84,"text":"簡單講那個管理辦法"},{"start":5691.84,"end":5693.84,"text":"那個收支保管運用辦法"},{"start":5693.84,"end":5695.84,"text":"他是什麼"},{"start":5695.84,"end":5697.84,"text":"他是在定義這個管理會的組成"},{"start":5697.84,"end":5699.84,"text":"他的職長他的分工"},{"start":5699.84,"end":5701.84,"text":"其中所謂的責任中心"},{"start":5701.84,"end":5703.84,"text":"是也不過其中第二條的第二項"},{"start":5703.84,"end":5705.84,"text":"一句話帶過而已"},{"start":5706.62,"end":5708.62,"text":"後面有沒有看到對應管理中"},{"start":5708.62,"end":5710.62,"text":"這個責任中心的內容呢"},{"start":5710.62,"end":5712.62,"text":"我沒有看出來"},{"start":5712.62,"end":5714.62,"text":"但是無論如何這個是"},{"start":5713.67,"end":5715.67,"text":"我們第29條的目的"},{"start":5715.67,"end":5717.67,"text":"29條跟30條目的"},{"start":5717.67,"end":5719.67,"text":"是後來我們國發"},{"start":5721.87,"end":5723.87,"text":"基金有一個管理會的法源依據"},{"start":5723.87,"end":5725.87,"text":"而這次民眾黨團的提案"},{"start":5725.87,"end":5727.87,"text":"就是要在這個管理會當中"},{"start":5727.87,"end":5729.87,"text":"硬生生的把那四到六位專家學者的委員"},{"start":5734.07,"end":5736.07,"text":"一開始他們原來的提案"},{"start":5736.07,"end":5738.07,"text":"是要用什麼"},{"start":5738.07,"end":5740.07,"text":"用公視委員的方式"},{"start":5740.07,"end":5742.07,"text":"再另外創設一個審查委員會"},{"start":5742.07,"end":5744.07,"text":"由立法院"},{"start":5743.44,"end":5745.44,"text":"立法院推舉的公正人士"},{"start":5745.44,"end":5747.44,"text":"來創設一個審查委員會"},{"start":5747.44,"end":5749.44,"text":"用審查委員會"},{"start":5749.44,"end":5751.44,"text":"來審查管理會當中"},{"start":5751.44,"end":5753.44,"text":"那四到六名的學者專家的名單"},{"start":5753.44,"end":5755.44,"text":"就是這樣子"},{"start":5755.87,"end":5757.87,"text":"就是要參與到行政權當中"},{"start":5757.87,"end":5759.87,"text":"對於管理委員會的組成的"},{"start":5759.87,"end":5761.87,"text":"這樣的一個行政權"},{"start":5763.4,"end":5765.4,"text":"如果說今天"},{"start":5765.4,"end":5767.4,"text":"民眾黨團的目的就是認為"},{"start":5767.4,"end":5769.4,"text":"國發基金這個管理會"},{"start":5769.4,"end":5771.4,"text":"的內容的成員"},{"start":5771.4,"end":5773.4,"text":"必須要有"},{"start":5773.66,"end":5775.66,"text":"立法機關的意旨在裡面"},{"start":5775.66,"end":5777.66,"text":"你根本不用把整套的"},{"start":5777.66,"end":5779.66,"text":"管理辦法拉上來嘛"},{"start":5779.66,"end":5781.66,"text":"你就直接訂一個條文說"},{"start":5781.66,"end":5783.66,"text":"這當中 未來這個管理會"},{"start":5783.66,"end":5785.66,"text":"國發基金管理會當中的委員"},{"start":5785.66,"end":5787.66,"text":"學者專家應有怎麼樣就好了"},{"start":5787.66,"end":5789.66,"text":"不是"},{"start":5788.78,"end":5790.78,"text":"立法技術就那一套而已"},{"start":5790.78,"end":5792.78,"text":"全部執法搬上來母法"},{"start":5792.78,"end":5794.78,"text":"目的是為了幹嘛"},{"start":5794.78,"end":5796.78,"text":"就是為了要把那個學者專家四到六人"},{"start":5796.78,"end":5798.78,"text":"另外再成立一個審查委員會來審查"},{"start":5798.78,"end":5800.78,"text":"但是呢 今天的修正動議"},{"start":5800.78,"end":5802.78,"text":"我剛剛講一次了 再講第二次"},{"start":5803.61,"end":5805.61,"text":"他們的修正動議 現在的修正動議"},{"start":5805.61,"end":5807.61,"text":"更可笑了 由立法院"},{"start":5807.61,"end":5809.61,"text":"各政黨團依其席次比例推薦之"},{"start":5809.61,"end":5811.61,"text":"其中每一政黨至少要一人"},{"start":5812.91,"end":5814.91,"text":"學者專家就四到六人了"},{"start":5815.27,"end":5817.27,"text":"你立法院要來參與"},{"start":5817.27,"end":5819.27,"text":"你還規定每個政黨要有一人"},{"start":5819.27,"end":5821.27,"text":"就假設說未來立法院只有三個黨嗎"},{"start":5822.55,"end":5824.55,"text":"立法院只要超過六個黨"},{"start":5824.54,"end":5826.54,"text":"這個母法就沒辦法運作了"},{"start":5826.66,"end":5828.66,"text":"所以啊"},{"start":5828,"end":5830,"text":"黨派有黨派自己的立場跟政策"},{"start":5830,"end":5832,"text":"但是不要只為了眼前自己的政黨利益"},{"start":5836.3,"end":5838.3,"text":"去動了一個要行之久遠的法律體制"},{"start":5838.3,"end":5840.3,"text":"立法院是有立法院的高度"},{"start":5842.81,"end":5845.81,"text":"立法委員的權責不是為了單一黨派的私利"},{"start":5845.81,"end":5847.81,"text":"去善改這樣的法律條文的"},{"start":5847.81,"end":5849.81,"text":"這樣的條文訂下去之後能運作嗎"},{"start":5851.3,"end":5854.3,"text":"但是修正動議那個每一個政黨至少要一個人"},{"start":5854.3,"end":5857.3,"text":"你專家學者就四到六人如何滿足這個條件"},{"start":5857.71,"end":5859.71,"text":"從法治面上來講根本不可行"},{"start":5859.71,"end":5861.71,"text":"這樣粗糙的立法手段"},{"start":5861.71,"end":5863.71,"text":"把執法搬到母法來"},{"start":5863.71,"end":5865.71,"text":"然後在這當中"},{"start":5865.71,"end":5867.71,"text":"又只抓一個條文"},{"start":5867.71,"end":5869.71,"text":"要把手伸進去"},{"start":5870.02,"end":5872.02,"text":"這就是我可以看到這兩年多來"},{"start":5872.02,"end":5874.02,"text":"民眾黨團的黨團的版本"},{"start":5874.02,"end":5876.02,"text":"經常犯的錯誤"},{"start":5878.89,"end":5880.89,"text":"我再提一個問題"},{"start":5880.89,"end":5882.89,"text":"29條"},{"start":5882.61,"end":5884.61,"text":"民眾黨所提的修正就是前項"},{"start":5884.61,"end":5886.61,"text":"那個國"},{"start":5886.77,"end":5888.77,"text":"請願意設置國家發展機器"},{"start":5888.77,"end":5890.77,"text":"由國家發展委員會為管理機關"},{"start":5892.34,"end":5894.34,"text":"國安法委員會的這個"},{"start":5894.34,"end":5896.34,"text":"是由主委制對不對"},{"start":5896.46,"end":5898.46,"text":"好 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中央議員"},{"start":6299.23,"end":6301.23,"text":"很感謝我們曾天的委員"},{"start":6301.23,"end":6303.23,"text":"以及資深委員及資深公務員的角度"},{"start":6303.23,"end":6305.23,"text":"我們可以來回顧"},{"start":6305.23,"end":6307.23,"text":"來看一下今天"},{"start":6307.23,"end":6309.23,"text":"今天討論的產狀條例部分條例"},{"start":6309.23,"end":6311.23,"text":"文修正草案大概就是兩塊"},{"start":6311.25,"end":6313.25,"text":"一塊是第十條之三"},{"start":6313.25,"end":6315.25,"text":"就是陳淑薇委員談到的"},{"start":6315.25,"end":6317.25,"text":"醫療法人其他的各條文"},{"start":6317.25,"end":6319.25,"text":"都是民眾黨團的內容"},{"start":6319.25,"end":6321.25,"text":"我把民眾黨團的"},{"start":6321.25,"end":6323.25,"text":"版本簡單的幫大家"},{"start":6323.25,"end":6325.25,"text":"做一個重新的拆解後"},{"start":6325.25,"end":6327.25,"text":"看一下其實目前"},{"start":6327.25,"end":6329.25,"text":"剛剛所說的收支保管及"},{"start":6329.25,"end":6331.25,"text":"運用辦法"},{"start":6331.25,"end":6333.25,"text":"他的法源依據就是目前"},{"start":6333.25,"end":6335.25,"text":"產狀條例的第29條"},{"start":6335.25,"end":6337.25,"text":"還有第31條第二項"},{"start":6337.4,"end":6339.4,"text":"31條第二項上面寫的"},{"start":6339.4,"end":6341.4,"text":"你看可以看條例對照表第8頁"},{"start":6341.4,"end":6343.4,"text":"國家發展基金之管理及運用辦法"},{"start":6343.4,"end":6345.4,"text":"由行政院定制"},{"start":6345.27,"end":6347.27,"text":"好了"},{"start":6346.2,"end":6348.2,"text":"那這31條我們看一看"},{"start":6348.2,"end":6350.2,"text":"民眾黨團們怎麼寫呢"},{"start":6350.63,"end":6352.63,"text":"他把第二項拿掉了"},{"start":6352.63,"end":6354.63,"text":"就是國家發展基金之管理及運用辦法"},{"start":6354.63,"end":6356.63,"text":"由行政院定制"},{"start":6356.63,"end":6358.63,"text":"他不要行政院定"},{"start":6358.63,"end":6360.63,"text":"他直接定在30條之1到30條之8"},{"start":6360.57,"end":6362.57,"text":"那請問他的30條寫什麼呢"},{"start":6363.09,"end":6365.09,"text":"本來31條就寫說國家發展基金的來源"},{"start":6365.09,"end":6367.09,"text":"除了國庫撥款"},{"start":6367.09,"end":6369.09,"text":"還有作業剩餘的"},{"start":6369.09,"end":6371.09,"text":"循環計 循環預算 程序"},{"start":6371.09,"end":6373.09,"text":"撥充基金就循環使用"},{"start":6373.09,"end":6375.09,"text":"他的30條寫了什麼"},{"start":6375.09,"end":6377.09,"text":"寫123456款"},{"start":6377.77,"end":6379.77,"text":"這6款來自於哪裡"},{"start":6379.84,"end":6381.84,"text":"這6款應該執行長就很熟"},{"start":6381.84,"end":6385.84,"text":"這就是我們收支管理運用辦法裡面寫的嘛"},{"start":6386.26,"end":6388.26,"text":"是不是 你去看一下我們收支管理運用辦法"},{"start":6389.09,"end":6391.09,"text":"是不是就有這個內容"},{"start":6391.09,"end":6393.09,"text":"所以他基本上就是把收支管理運用辦法裡面"},{"start":6393.09,"end":6395.09,"text":"把他拉上來"},{"start":6395.09,"end":6397.09,"text":"那拉上來我們看一下"},{"start":6397.09,"end":6399.09,"text":"他這裡面呢"},{"start":6398.59,"end":6400.59,"text":"包含了這一條呢"},{"start":6401.09,"end":6403.09,"text":"我就告訴你這收支管理運用辦法當中的內容"},{"start":6405.63,"end":6407.63,"text":"他一共18條"},{"start":6407.63,"end":6409.63,"text":"我們的這個第3C條"},{"start":6409.63,"end":6411.63,"text":"模仿的第3C條呢"},{"start":6411.63,"end":6413.63,"text":"就來自於收支管理運用辦法當中"},{"start":6413.63,"end":6415.63,"text":"的第"},{"start":6417.24,"end":6419.24,"text":"第4條"},{"start":6418.72,"end":6420.72,"text":"本基金的來源"},{"start":6420.72,"end":6422.72,"text":"在收支管理運用辦法的第4條"},{"start":6422.72,"end":6424.72,"text":"他把它原封不動的抄到第31條來"},{"start":6425.93,"end":6427.93,"text":"把31條的法源依據"},{"start":6427.93,"end":6429.93,"text":"由行政院定制拿掉了"},{"start":6429.93,"end":6431.93,"text":"他就是不要行政院定"},{"start":6431.31,"end":6433.31,"text":"他要由立法院定在模法當中"},{"start":6433.31,"end":6435.31,"text":"那至於30條之1到之8當中"},{"start":6435.31,"end":6437.31,"text":"我們來看看"},{"start":6437.31,"end":6439.31,"text":"他中間還有一個30條"},{"start":6440.68,"end":6442.68,"text":"老實說30條呢本來只有5款"},{"start":6444.85,"end":6446.85,"text":"只有第一項只有5款"},{"start":6446.85,"end":6448.85,"text":"但是呢我們來看一下民眾黨團的版本呢"},{"start":6448.85,"end":6450.85,"text":"他多了第二項"},{"start":6450.94,"end":6452.94,"text":"第二項他有個負面表列"},{"start":6452.94,"end":6454.94,"text":"其他國家發展基金之運用不得用於"},{"start":6454.94,"end":6456.94,"text":"下列情況不得用於企業虧損的"},{"start":6456.94,"end":6458.94,"text":"紓困不得用於"},{"start":6458.94,"end":6460.94,"text":"主要活動呢在中國大陸之企業"},{"start":6460.94,"end":6462.94,"text":"這是很可以討論的"},{"start":6462.94,"end":6464.94,"text":"大家應該聚焦在他的第30條"},{"start":6464.94,"end":6466.94,"text":"為什麼我們目前的"},{"start":6466.94,"end":6468.94,"text":"這個產創條例當中"},{"start":6468.94,"end":6470.94,"text":"我們國發基金的用途有"},{"start":6470.94,"end":6472.94,"text":"1 2 3 4 5款但是民眾黨團"},{"start":6472.94,"end":6474.94,"text":"的版本他特別要加了3個"},{"start":6474.94,"end":6476.94,"text":"負面表列不得用於"},{"start":6476.94,"end":6478.94,"text":"對於虧損企業的紓困"},{"start":6478.97,"end":6480.97,"text":"然後呢也不能投資於"},{"start":6480.97,"end":6482.97,"text":"過去三年內有違反環保"},{"start":6482.97,"end":6484.97,"text":"勞工食安"},{"start":6484.97,"end":6486.97,"text":"這個呢就是實施立法"},{"start":6486.97,"end":6488.97,"text":"看到現在社會關心什麼事情"},{"start":6488.97,"end":6490.97,"text":"反映民意把它定在我們30條"},{"start":6490.97,"end":6492.97,"text":"的第二項做為負面表列"},{"start":6492.97,"end":6494.97,"text":"這也是體察體現了立法院"},{"start":6494.97,"end":6496.97,"text":"順應民意反映民意的"},{"start":6496.97,"end":6498.97,"text":"很重要的做法"},{"start":6499.13,"end":6501.13,"text":"其中很重要一點我很佩服"},{"start":6501.13,"end":6503.13,"text":"他那個第二款他寫說"},{"start":6503.13,"end":6505.13,"text":"投資主要生產活動位於中國大陸之企業"},{"start":6505.13,"end":6507.13,"text":"我覺得這個"},{"start":6507.13,"end":6509.13,"text":"可以大大的拿來討論一下"},{"start":6509.13,"end":6511.13,"text":"我們第30條是否我國發基金"},{"start":6511.13,"end":6513.13,"text":"應該有這個負面表列的限制"},{"start":6513.13,"end":6515.13,"text":"這三種負面表列的限制"},{"start":6515.13,"end":6517.13,"text":"一個是企業虧損"},{"start":6516.84,"end":6518.84,"text":"一個是在中國大陸的企業投資"},{"start":6518.84,"end":6520.84,"text":"第三個是有些違反環保"},{"start":6520.84,"end":6522.84,"text":"勞工跟食安的相關企業"},{"start":6522.84,"end":6524.84,"text":"這個就是我們今天可以討論的範圍"},{"start":6524.84,"end":6526.84,"text":"但是至於其他的"},{"start":6526.84,"end":6528.84,"text":"我剛剛說了他29條"},{"start":6528.84,"end":6530.84,"text":"把責任中心制是把原來"},{"start":6530.84,"end":6532.84,"text":"辦法中的第三條的第二項"},{"start":6532.84,"end":6534.84,"text":"放到我們29條的第二項"},{"start":6535.04,"end":6537.04,"text":"然後他的第31條"},{"start":6537.74,"end":6539.74,"text":"第31條就是原封不動的把第5條"},{"start":6539.74,"end":6541.74,"text":"法管用辦法第5條"},{"start":6541.74,"end":6543.74,"text":"直接搬過來取代"},{"start":6543.74,"end":6545.74,"text":"31條的第二項"},{"start":6546.15,"end":6548.15,"text":"就這樣而已"},{"start":6547.56,"end":6549.56,"text":"老實說做這樣的法令版本的拆解"},{"start":6549.56,"end":6551.56,"text":"大家知道這個立法"},{"start":6551.56,"end":6553.56,"text":"也沒什麼太複雜的"},{"start":6554.53,"end":6556.53,"text":"就是不要行政院來定執法"},{"start":6556.66,"end":6558.66,"text":"由立法定在魔法裡面"},{"start":6559.77,"end":6561.77,"text":"然後其他的就照目前的執法內容"},{"start":6561.77,"end":6563.77,"text":"放進去"},{"start":6563.77,"end":6565.77,"text":"最重要的核心關鍵"},{"start":6565.17,"end":6567.17,"text":"就是學者專家"},{"start":6567.17,"end":6569.17,"text":"審查會的委員"},{"start":6569.99,"end":6571.99,"text":"四到六名學者專家他的產生方式"},{"start":6573.11,"end":6575.11,"text":"說穿的就是這樣子"},{"start":6574.87,"end":6576.87,"text":"為了這樣的一個目的"},{"start":6576.71,"end":6578.71,"text":"大費周章的"},{"start":6578.71,"end":6580.71,"text":"我們從30條之一"},{"start":6580.71,"end":6582.71,"text":"定到30條之八"},{"start":6581.47,"end":6583.47,"text":"全部都是從我們原來的保管運用"},{"start":6583.47,"end":6585.47,"text":"收支運用辦法當中"},{"start":6585.47,"end":6587.47,"text":"的19個條文"},{"start":6587.47,"end":6589.47,"text":"挑選的放進來"},{"start":6589.55,"end":6591.55,"text":"然後去改了一個29條"},{"start":6591.55,"end":6593.55,"text":"去改了一個30條"},{"start":6593.55,"end":6595.55,"text":"去改了一個31條"},{"start":6595.55,"end":6597.55,"text":"我倒覺得最有討論價值的"},{"start":6597.55,"end":6599.55,"text":"就是30條的負面表列的部分"},{"start":6599.55,"end":6601.55,"text":"想請主委"},{"start":6601.55,"end":6603.55,"text":"因為我們現在大抵討論"},{"start":6603.55,"end":6605.55,"text":"主委就這30條民眾黨團的"},{"start":6605.55,"end":6607.55,"text":"那三個負面表列項目"},{"start":6607.55,"end":6609.55,"text":"您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6609.55,"end":6611.55,"text":"主委回到人之後"},{"start":6611.55,"end":6613.55,"text":"我就要處理"},{"start":6612.26,"end":6614.26,"text":"請主委"},{"start":6615.03,"end":6617.03,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":6617.03,"end":6619.03,"text":"關於這個30條剛剛講的那幾項"},{"start":6619.03,"end":6621.03,"text":"負面表列的部分"},{"start":6621.03,"end":6623.03,"text":"我們在跟民眾黨團"},{"start":6623.03,"end":6625.03,"text":"溝通的時候其實也在表達"},{"start":6625.03,"end":6627.03,"text":"那個所謂企業"},{"start":6627.03,"end":6629.03,"text":"虧損的這個"},{"start":6629.03,"end":6631.03,"text":"部分這個字也要斟酌"},{"start":6631.03,"end":6633.03,"text":"因為來找國發基金投資的"},{"start":6633.03,"end":6635.03,"text":"幾乎都是在"},{"start":6635.03,"end":6637.03,"text":"一開始還沒有營利的部分"},{"start":6637.03,"end":6639.03,"text":"所以這個我們大概"},{"start":6639.03,"end":6641.03,"text":"一直有在討論"},{"start":6641.03,"end":6643.03,"text":"那我們是"},{"start":6643.03,"end":6645.03,"text":"不太能夠同意把那個放進去"},{"start":6645.03,"end":6647.03,"text":"那至於說"},{"start":6647.03,"end":6649.03,"text":"不投資中國大陸這個部分"},{"start":6649.03,"end":6651.03,"text":"其實在國發基金來講"},{"start":6651.03,"end":6653.03,"text":"這個本來就都是一個"},{"start":6653.03,"end":6655.03,"text":"很重要的考量"},{"start":6656.04,"end":6658.04,"text":"好這個"},{"start":6657.93,"end":6659.93,"text":"至於做一些處理"},{"start":6660.29,"end":6662.29,"text":"今天上午討論事項所列一案"},{"start":6662.29,"end":6664.29,"text":"產業創新條例部分"},{"start":6664.29,"end":6666.29,"text":"條例修正草案"},{"start":6665.93,"end":6667.93,"text":"上會審查完畢我們另定其居審查"},{"start":6667.93,"end":6669.93,"text":"現在散會"},{"start":6670.21,"end":6672.21,"text":"下一場本會"},{"start":6672.21,"end":6674.21,"text":"第二次全體委員會"},{"start":6674.21,"end":6676.21,"text":"排定審查"},{"start":6676.21,"end":6678.21,"text":"公平法部分條例修正草案我們10點30分"},{"start":6679.46,"end":6681.46,"text":"10點32分"},{"start":6681.46,"end":6683.46,"text":"開始開會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}